Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #446, Going Rogue (OOTP 11, The Sorting Hat’s New Song)

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Show Intro

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[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. This is Episode 446. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: This is our penultimate episode of the year, and it will be our final Chapter by Chapter of the year. Actually, interestingly enough, as many of our listeners know, we started Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter way back in 2011. Episode 241 was our final Chapter by Chapter for Book 5, and it was “Luna Lovegood,” that chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So from this episode onward, it’s going to be all new Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter. [laughs] We actually have a confession: We’ve actually just been copying and pasting our notes from 2011 into the new docs.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s what I was actually just going to say, Andrew, that everybody thinks I’ve done such a great job planning these episodes, but really, all I’ve done is go back to past Google Docs and copy/paste over.

Andrew: You actually admitted a couple weeks ago that you just used points from an old doc, to us privately. How dare you?

Micah: Well, can you plagiarize yourself?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: No, I guess not.

Micah: I would say that what I did was go in and take points that I thought would add to the great conversation that I had already created for last week’s episode.

Andrew: Yes, yes, so it’s better than ever.

Eric: Yeah, and there’s value in revisiting the same topic ten years apart. That’s pretty cool.

Andrew: I did look at a couple of the notes from our old Chapter by Chapter Order of the Phoenix discussions, and we were basically doing the same thing. I mean, of course we are, because we’re talking about the same chapters.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Still had the same thoughts; maybe we were a little wiser the second time. But anyway, we stopped doing Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter back in 2011 for reasons we still do not recall, so this time, we’re actually going to stick it out and complete it.

Micah: By the way, given that we are in the holiday season, I actually with work went out to volunteer yesterday – we do it every year – and it was a lot of fun. We went to a third grade class, and we were tasked with building gingerbread houses. Now, you can imagine what it’s like trying to build gingerbread houses with third graders. All they want to do is eat the gingerbread house materials…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and then they get all wired, and you’re with them for several hours. It’s a great experience; I recommend everybody do it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It also gives me a great appreciation for teachers who have to live day in and day out with that level of energy for hours on end, so Laura, I know that was something that you did for a period of time.

Laura: Mhmm.

Micah: But anyway, I sat down at the table with my group, and next to me was this young 8-year-old girl named Eva – who by far built the best house, at least at our table – and she started talking to me about how much she likes Harry Potter. And so we got into a conversation, and of course, I asked her, “Who’s your favorite character?” And she said Hermione, but she was surprised that Hermione was put into Gryffindor, and I asked her why, and she said, “Because she’s so smart.”

Andrew: [laughs] Ouch.

Micah: And I just thought that that was a lot of intuition on the part of a 8-year-old. And she told me her favorite professor was Lupin; she also liked Hagrid. And she had been to Orlando, and then as soon as I asked her whether or not she’d been to the theme park, she kind of lit up and she was like, “Have you been on the Gringotts ride?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Aww.

Micah: It was just so, so cool to see somebody that young who was so into Harry Potter.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s really cute. And then you thought about recommending MuggleCast, but then you remember we get a little inappropriate on the show from time to time.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Right.

Micah: Maybe she could go back and listen to the early episodes. That’d be okay.

Andrew: When we were 8 years old? [laughs]

Micah: When we were 8 years old, yeah. But yeah, very cute. Had a great time.

Andrew: That’s great.

Micah: I actually posted a video up on on Twitter, which MuggleCast retweeted.

Andrew: I’m a little curious; somebody that young, was she reading the illustrated editions or the real books?

Micah: Good question.

Andrew: Don’t know?

Micah: I did not ask.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: We’ll have to have her on the show and follow up on some of these questions.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But she does watch the movies.

Andrew: Cool.

Micah: She says she’s up to… she hasn’t finished the series yet. She’s on Half-Blood Prince.

Eric: So she’s 8 years old, which means she was born the year that we last finished Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter.

Andrew: Oh gosh, that’s disturbing.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, man. That’s really disturbing.

Laura: Yep. I was going to say, if y’all want to feel old, Eva didn’t exist when we started this show.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: For another six years, yeah.

Micah: And even better, she said the rule in her house is that you have to read the book before you watch the movie.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: Oh, that is a great household.

Laura: Oh, man, those are awesome parents.

Eric: Parenting done right.

Andrew: Good stuff. We also got this email from Kayla:

“Hey, MuggleCasters. Last night, I went on a Harry Potter booze cruise, and ship was lit.”

Micah: [laughs] We just went from one extreme to the other, by the way.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Innocent girl to party girl on a cruise ship.

“Ship was lit. Had way too many butterbeers, but still somehow managed to score 100% on trivia, but so did three others. The tie breaker? Albus Dumbledore’s full name. In my inebriated state, I still managed to get his full name correct, and I think I owe it all to you! I won the Triwizard cup, and obviously had them fill it up with more butterbeer!”

[Eric laughs]

“The bar witch was so freaking excited to make one in that cup. Thanks, MuggleCast, for contributing to my epic takedown! 20 points to Gryffindor!”

Andrew: That’s fantastic, Kayla. [laughs]

Laura: I love that.

Eric: Hey, hope Kayla got home safely afterwards.

Laura: I want to know about this Harry Potter booze cruise.

Andrew: Yeah, what is that?

Micah: Can we do this together in 2020, Andrew?

Andrew: Sure.

Laura: Yes, I would love to do this.

Andrew: I’ve never been on a cruise, so that would be exciting for me.

Laura: Ooh, it’s fun.

Micah: I love how the bartender is called the bar witch.

Andrew: Yeah, right. Kayla didn’t have to say that, but she is in character.

Eric: In character. Super stoked. Congratulations, and congratulations to the other people who got 100%. That’s pretty cool, right?

Andrew: Yeah, some smart people on that boat.

Eric: I mean, Andrew, you and I know how hard it is to get ahead at… [laughs] Some of these questions are a little wonky.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Eric: But good for them.

Andrew: That is a good idea. Let’s go next year before Warner Bros. starts shutting down these Harry Potter cruises. I can’t imagine them being very cool with that. [laughs]

Eric: Agreed, agreed, agreed. And still in the holiday spirit, I actually came across a book I want to recommend, or two books, but one of them is specifically for Harry Potter fans, and that’s called Law Made Fun Through Harry Potter’s Adventures: 99 Lessons in Law from the Wizarding World for Fans of All Ages, and it’s by Karen Morris, Esquire and Bradley S. Carroll, Esquire. This book was sent to me as part of a review; it was like a review copy, and I read it. But I went through it, and I was like, “Oh my God, this is amazing.” They basically take all the instances in all the Harry Potter books that have basically a tie-in to real world law. So for instance, bank robbery, [laughs] because Harry Potter… I often forget, but yeah, they rob a bank. They break into Bellatrix’s vault, and it talks about the real world rules and laws and punishments for that sort of thing. And there’s also obviously a lot to do with Book 5, which is why I’m recommending it. There’s a lot to do with government setting the curriculum of schools, of public schools, and a lot of really interesting lessons. And none of it is very heady; they manage to break it down into the segments that make the most sense. So I read this book and I loved it, and I highly recommend it. The Kindle version is only $3.99.

Andrew: Cool.

Micah: I’m going to get this for Andrew because I guarantee that there’s something in there about Hogwarts being a security nightmare.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Thank you. I would like to read more about this urgent issue.

Eric: So that was definitely something I wanted to throw in for any last minute Christmas gift givers. And then there’s another book that I wrote something for and I’m in…

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: … called Pod Life: Podcasters’ Stories, and I tell, in this book, the story of how I first joined MuggleCast.

Andrew: Nice.

Eric: But it’s a bunch of stories. If anybody out there is looking to start a podcast, this is a great… there’s 20 other people who wrote as well how they started their podcasts, and it’s a local sort of Chicago podcast group called the Southgate Media Group that put this all together. And it’s just really inspiring stories. Also, every podcast is way different, and everybody comes at it for way different reasons, so it’s also an inspiring look.

Andrew: Cool. It’s too bad you didn’t get to write in this book next year, because you could retell your time on the Harry Potter booze cruise that we’re taking.

Eric: I’m sure that would be worth its own book. You and I can write a book.

Andrew: Sure.

Eric: Or all four of us can collaborate. [laughs]

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Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

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Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. We’re diving into Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “The Sorting Hat’s New Song,” and we will start with our seven-word summary. Umbridge…

Laura: … takes…

Micah: … Dumbledore’s…

Eric: … spotlight…

Andrew: … down…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: … during…

Micah: … dinner.

Andrew: Cool!

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: “Away” would have been easy for me to say, but I wanted to screw with y’all.

Laura: That’s why I chose “takes.”

Eric: Yeah, “Umbridge takes” is very devious for sure.

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Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

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Eric: But okay, so this chapter picks up right where the last one left off. The trio and Neville and Ginny and Luna are in a carriage heading up to Hogwarts. Harry is a little disturbed by what he sees in the Thestrals, but he’s also still disturbed and can’t get over what he doesn’t see in Hagrid. And Ginny asks… I mean, nobody’s going to talk about it until Ginny says, “Hey, what is Grubbly-Plank doing back? Is she replacing Hagrid?” And it comes to light… of course, last chapter was “Luna Lovegood,” and Luna tells some uncomfortable truths, but Luna has the brashness to state that Hagrid is a joke of a teacher to Ravenclaws. Like, “You don’t actually think that he’s good, right?” And it’s funny to see how the cards fall, because Harry and Ron and Ginny all jump to the defense, “Oh yeah, he’s great,” and Hermione, bless her, wants to be able to do that, but kind of falters a little bit. And I thought it was interesting to comment on how the loyalties that these kids have to Hagrid really affect their judgment. I mean, it’s just a tiny conversation, but seeing Harry and Ron really jump – and Ginny, too; we don’t know what her relationship with Hagrid is – to really jump to his defense, and even Hermione is like, “Well, Luna kind of has a point, in a way.”

Andrew: Yeah, it’s like when you want to support your friend even though you know that maybe what they’re doing they’re not that great at, but of course, you’re going to go to their concert anyway, or go check out their podcast, or read their book. [laughs]

Eric: Is that a reference to the book that I just…? [laughs]

Andrew: Of course not. I haven’t read it yet, but I can’t wait to rave about your work.

Eric: Okay, thank you.

Andrew: It really stings, and I kind of found it inappropriate, but I guess Luna is unfiltered that way.

Laura: Also, this just reminds me – and I feel like we’ve all probably had this experience before – of having a teacher that you like on a personal level very much, but recognizing that they’re not the greatest teacher.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: And I think this is the first time that this group is being called to the floor to acknowledge that. Of course, they all have the knowledge that Hagrid was wrongly forced to drop out of Hogwarts, so he was educationally stunted over something that was not his fault, so they’re probably unknowingly cutting him a lot of slack, deservedly so, but that’s probably context that somebody like Luna wouldn’t have.

Eric: That’s true.

Micah: That’s a great point, because you wonder what kind of student Hagrid actually was when he was at Hogwarts prior to him getting expelled. And Eric, I think the point that you raise about loyalty affecting judgment is a good one, but as we see throughout the course, really, of this chapter and the entire book, the staff that Dumbledore has put into place here is questionable. Their qualifications are not… they don’t meet a certain standard in a lot of cases that you would want if you had kids and your kids were going to school. Hagrid is a teacher that I think very much leads with his heart, and there’s good intention behind what he does, but I don’t know that he’s qualified to teach, and I think that Luna raising this point is a very good one. And even going back to Prisoner of Azkaban where he first takes over this role – say what you want about Draco and him being antagonistic – if Hagrid was a good teacher, he would have been paying attention to what was going on…

Eric: Exactly.

Micah: … and maybe that incident with Buckbeak doesn’t happen, and I think that it just speaks to his ability to teach in that sense. So I tend to agree with Luna; I do think he’s a bit of a joke of a teacher who just kind of filled a role that was needed.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, you really can’t blame a Ravenclaw in Luna for being excited at the prospect of Grubbly-Plank. Ginny has some kind of weird thing against her, but we just don’t know what the Ravenclaws’ lessons with Hagrid were. I think Hagrid… we probably already know he kind of fails to communicate the importance of the creature that he’s teaching, or gives them a too dangerous creature that they can’t handle, so…

Micah: And that goes to Andrew’s point of being a security nightmare.

Eric: Oh, total security nightmare.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Because you have a professor that doesn’t understand the danger of some of these creatures that he’s trying to teach about, and so if he’s not doing it safely from a distance, then he’s not protecting these young students who need to be protected; let’s face it. I guarantee you there’s somebody that we grew up with that all of us know that probably would have done the same thing that Draco did.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And so it’s just because we don’t like Draco that we’re a little bit quicker to judge, but I think some of that blame and responsibility does fall on Hagrid for what happened.

Eric: Well, it’s just so interesting starting the chapter on this argument, because it’s almost like we need an Umbridge in this school to kind of, I don’t know, say that these teachers aren’t good, right? Right?

Andrew: [laughs] Uh-oh.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I will say, in fairness to Hagrid, I think some of this boils down also to a tendency towards teaching from an applied perspective, meaning that “I’m actually going to give you real world experience, and we’re not going to spend tons of time going over theory.” And I have a feeling, being a Ravenclaw myself, that Ravenclaws need a lot of that foundational theory in order to gain an understanding and a respect for the subject matter, and if they’re not getting that, then they’ll probably think it’s just a joke. And I’m guessing… actually, we know that Hagrid does not provide this.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, Hagrid’s value as a teacher, Trelawney’s value as a teacher, to Micah’s point about Dumbledore… I mean…

Andrew: Trelawney, yeah. That’s who I’ve also been thinking of during this discussion. I mean, she’s losing her mind in front of the students.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: But we know why he’s keeping her there, and it’s not necessarily because she’s a good teacher. [laughs]

Eric: Well, that’s the whole thing, isn’t it?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: In the bag there. It’s like… well, so Umbridge is here, somebody from the Ministry – we’ll obviously get to this in a minute – but it’s probably… on the surface, it’s not the worst thing in the world? We’ll talk.

Micah: Well, yeah, but I would also say it’d be interesting to go back and take a look at what professors were there prior to Dumbledore taking over as headmaster versus the professors that he has brought on to fulfill some of these roles, right? I would assume McGonagall, Flitwick, Sprout… they may have been there prior to him taking over the reins.

Andrew: And then Dumbledore comes in, and the zoo comes to town.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Big old circus at Hogwarts.

Micah: It’s basically Circus Arcanus at Hogwarts.

Laura: Well, I think that Dumbledore likes to give people chances.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: I agree with that.

Laura: I mean, we even see this with Mundungus Fletcher; he tries to be very intentional about not holding people’s pasts against them.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: And I think that he tries to allow people to have opportunities for redemption, and I think it’s pretty appropriate with Hagrid. I mean, what happened to him was not his fault.

Eric: You almost wonder why they didn’t put him back in school. A few years behind, but he could have completed.

Andrew: That would’ve been cool. It’s like that rumored Harry Potter video game that apparently is going to come out one day.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Where you’re a late bloomer in terms of getting your wizarding abilities. What if that was about Hagrid? That would be cool as hell.

Eric: That’d be great; I agree. So we get into the Great Hall where most of this chapter takes place, and Harry gets the distinct impression that Lavender and Parvati, who say hello to him, were talking about him only seconds before. He’s pretty sure because they are laughing and giggling and looking at him, but saying hello genuinely, but he gets the idea they’re talking about him. And it’s just that all of this stuff… we really see, not to put too fine a point on it, but at the end of this chapter, it’s even clearer how much damage the Ministry – or the Daily Prophet, perhaps, with the slant of the Ministry – has done to Harry’s rep.

Andrew: Right, and I want to talk about that later in the episode because I think Dumbledore should have been planning for this, because Harry, throughout this chapter – starting with this moment – is being treated poorly by his fellow students, and it’s not fair to Harry.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just kind of shitty that fellow Gryffindors were talking about him.

Micah: Do you think that’s what it is, though, or do you think it’s more of a girls’ conversation? Meaning they’re interested in Harry, beyond what’s being said.

Andrew: Like, “He’s cute.”

Laura: Well…

Eric: I think that’s next year.

Laura: Yeah, Parvati also did not have a good time with Harry at the Yule Ball the prior year, so I don’t know. I don’t know that it would necessarily be a positive conversation. I read it more as like gossip.

Eric: Yeah. But speaking of gossip, Laura, I think you asked last chapter or suggested that Ginny was super popular in her grade? She gets hailed over to the Gryffindor table. People are wanting to sit with her, and we don’t know any of those people.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: We don’t even know her dorm mates.

Laura: Right, because the trio are not the cool kids.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Despite what they may think, they are not.

Laura: We don’t get to see that vantage point. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. This reminds me of my high school days. I was the loser and my sister was one of the cool kids. “Becca!”

Laura: Oh my God, same. [laughs]

Andrew: Really, your brother was the cool kid?

Laura: Yes, very much so.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Now the tables have turned.

Laura: That’s right. I’m a podcaster.

Andrew: Look who are podcasters now.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: So just before the Sorting Hat begins his yearly song – ballad, whatever you want to call it – Harry notices Umbridge is up on the dais, because he’s still looking for Hagrid. He was looking for… he saw the windows were shut and the lights were turned off in the cabin, and now Hagrid is not at the table. He notices Umbridge, and Ron and Hermione don’t know who that is, and it reminded me that we spent the beginning of this book… Harry is kind of really isolated; he had this whole knowledge of who she is, what she’s doing, that they did not because he had to go alone to those hearings. So just kind of an interesting thing.

Andrew: And then she turns and he’s like, “Oh my God, it’s the toad from the Ministry!”

Micah: Toad face.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: One thing I found interesting, though, as he was doing his assessment of who is up on the dais – and really just throughout the course of the entire chapter – is there’s no mention of Snape whatsoever. And I just found that given the history between the two of them – that he’s always thinking bad things about Snape, or has something negative to say about him – it’s like a total transition that the focus is now all on Umbridge.

Andrew: Oh yeah, that’s a good point. Because I think he’s extra on edge due to Hagrid’s absence, and then seeing this woman who he saw at the Ministry, and then, of course, what’s going on with the Prophet… lot of reason to be… Snape is old news.

Eric: [laughs] Yes. Yeah, for sure. So this song that the Sorting Hat sings… and it’s been a little while, I think, since we got a full Sorting Hat song. I could be wrong, but there’s a couple years where we miss them, because Harry misses them. But this one is a good one. It’s very groundbreaking, too, at least for the trio, because they’re not used to the Sorting Hat giving advice. So the Sorting Hat kind of steps beyond his scope here. He begins talking about the founders as usual, what they value – all this, all that – but then breaks into a “I’m not sure I should be doing this, Sorting you all,” kind of existential crisis. And it’s very interesting to see a hat have this kind of conflict within itself, in its song.

Andrew: It is. It was also… I still remember being very excited reading this book for the first time and seeing this chapter, “The Sorting Hat’s New Song.” Because of course, we all love the Sorting Hat, and to get a new tune from him, it was very tantalizing. I got very excited when I was flipping through that chapter list.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, I did that too. Did you do that thing where you read all the chapter names first?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. You just can’t resist, right? And it’s normally not too spoilery.

Eric: No, yeah, I did the same exact thing the first time I would read the Harry Potter books. But something about the founders I thought was interesting, and I hadn’t heard this before, but they were all friends. We knew they got along; they started Hogwarts. But Slytherin and Gryffindor in particular, the Sorting Hat says, “For were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor?” And I’m thinking, this is like a Professor X/Magneto thing. They were best friends. They were really close, Slytherin and Gryffindor. And I mean, more to the point, all of them were really, really close. And I always thought of them as having just different personalities; after all, we know that the Houses are molded after the four fates of Greek theory and all of that, but I always thought of them as colleagues. I never really thought of them as friends. But the way that the Sorting Hat says it makes me think of like, James and Sirius.

Micah: I was going to say, Andrew, you can write your next “Never Sever Us” based upon this description.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: This reminded me very much of Dumbledore and Grindelwald and sort of the separation that takes place once the incident with Ariana happens, so just those kind of parallels. Clearly something happened between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and we know it’s related to just teaching pure-bloods, but yeah, there’s that one incident that finally drives two people apart that are extremely close because there’s this just such a strong difference of opinion.

Eric: That kind of just blew my mind there. Would you say that Dumbledore and Grindelwald are the difference between Gryffindor and Slytherin, heightened? Because they both seek power, but there’s some kind of a line somewhere?

Laura: Ooh, I think that’s interesting. We can maybe have a whole discussion about that, to be honest. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, no, for sure. That just mildly blew my mind because I wasn’t thinking… Grindelwald didn’t go to Hogwarts, as far as I know. He’s not necessarily been Sorted. But we’ll stow that in the pocket for later. But yeah, the Sorting Hat is talking about duels here between founders. Can you imagine if you were one of the first students at Hogwarts, and it’s been going great, you’re in year four or whatever, and all of a sudden, Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin are battling in the Entrance Hall, and you have to find a secret passage to go to the dungeons for your potions class? Kind of crazy stuff, right? Mommy and Daddy fighting?

Laura: I would love to get something like a short story – like a movie, even – depicting this dynamic. It’s so interesting to me. I actually… so I used to write a lot of Harry Potter fanfiction, but before I even worked for MuggleNet, so we’re talking when I was 15 years old. And I actually did a flashback in one of the fanfictions I wrote that showed the split of the Hogwarts founders, and in my headcanon, Slytherin and Ravenclaw were romantically involved, and the breaking point where Slytherin decided “Screw this, I’m leaving this school” was when Ravenclaw finally turned against him, after he was getting a cold shoulder from Gryffindor and Hufflepuff. And he leaves the school, he comes back to try and convince Rowena to go with him, she refuses, something undisclosed erupts in terms of an argument about this, and it ends with Rowena Ravenclaw dead.

Eric: Ooh.

Laura: And I was like, “Okay, this… whatever, I was basically a child when I wrote it.” But then years later, we found out the story about the Grey Lady and the Bloody Baron, and I was like, “Oh, this is kind of reflective of what I imagine happened, except…”

Micah: She stole your story. She went on to MuggleNet fanfiction and took what you wrote and just edited it slightly.

Laura: [laughs] I’m fine with it. If J.K. Rowling ever thought that anything I wrote was good enough to steal…

Micah: But Laura, the royalties.

Andrew: “Take it, Jo. I don’t care. Just give me an autograph.”

Laura: “Just pay for my student loans and we’ll call it square.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I think this really illustrates there is a lot of crossover, though, even between Slytherin and Ravenclaw. There’s a huge amount of overlap, I think, between the Houses, and the Sorting Hat, with a song that overall calls for unity more than ever, the Sorting Hat is like, “We’ve got to band together. I probably shouldn’t even be Sorting you, but I gotta.” It’s calling for unity, and there’s a really… it’s really important to focus on how they were all friends originally, and how “discord crept among us, feeding on our faults and fears.” And he also says, after Slytherin left, “never since the founders four were whittled down to three, have the Houses been united as they once were meant to be,” and he’s just talking about the strength of us overcoming our faults and fears to live in harmony. And I think that’s obviously a very noble goal, a noble dream for a hat to have, but it’s something we should all aspire to, ultimately.

Andrew: And of course, the hat here is recalling this story because the hat sees this happening in present day. And I’m also not surprised generally by how the founders fell apart, or at least Gryffindor and Slytherin did, because when they’re putting together such an important place like Hogwarts, naturally they’re going to run into some conflicts, and as we see in the real world all the time, these people that go into business together suddenly fall apart because they just see different visions for what they’re building.

Laura: Yeah, sometimes you just want to teach the brave at heart. Other times you want to go full Nazi and just set up your own pure-blooded student body.

Andrew: Right, and Godric was like, “Mm, not for me.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Different ideas.

Eric: The fun thing about reading it now is we know that Slytherin still had his secret chamber when he left. He still prepped for some kind of a post-apocalyptic, like, “I will still be able to have my influence even after I leave” garbage. It was very cunning of him, I guess I should say, to leave, but while still putting that all together.

Micah: Right. And I agree with Andrew; I think when you look at the words “discord crept among us, feeding on our faults and fears,” that’s exactly what’s happening right now. We even see it at the end of this chapter with Seamus and how he is interacting with Harry. This is amongst Gryffindors; this is not Gryffindor versus Slytherin. This is very much a mother’s influence on her child and how Seamus is then interacting with Harry as a result of that. And I think there’s no better representation of the discord than Umbridge being introduced in this chapter, so the fact that these Houses are going to need to band together is extremely important.

Eric: And that second quote about the founders four since they’re “whittled down to three” never were “as they were meant to be,” this seems to indicate that Slytherin is a necessary ingredient. My natural inclination when hearing about Slytherin’s pure-blood mania and how he had a falling out and left is “Screw him. Who cares? We don’t need him.” But according to the Sorting Hat, they actually did need him. Slytherin brought, with all of his racial bias and prejudices and all of that, he still represented a faction of the world, right? He still represented part of the student body that was being best served under his tutelage somehow and for some reason. We need him for unity. So I always… in terms of taking lessons from J.K. Rowling, this, I think, is a very teachable moment of maybe we should look into more of what it was that Slytherin brought, what were the good qualities that we can all agree on that were then forever lost when he left.

Laura: I felt like this was an interesting comparison to the Battle of Hogwarts, because when we think about that, things were really not looking very good. Towards the point where Harry was walking into the forest to face Voldemort, it seemed like all was lost, and really, it was Narcissa Malfoy, a Slytherin, who turned everything around by pretending that Harry was dead. If she hadn’t done that, who knows what would have happened?

Micah: Agree.

Eric: Yeah, and she was protecting her son. She had… her best interest was her own self-interest in preserving her family in doing that.

Micah: Definitely.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: And I also think it’s why it was so important to bring Slughorn back into the fold in Half-Blood Prince. He was a former Head of Slytherin House; he then retakes that role once Snape becomes Headmaster in Deathly Hallows. But just knowing the character of Slughorn, we know that there’s certainly a lot of faults that we call attention to; his desire to sort of collect people. But at the end of the day, I think we see him as being this goodhearted individual, and joins into the battle as well. And I think when you’re talking about stressing unity, it’s also important to look at the fact that the Ministry is infiltrating Hogwarts, and you need unity when that is happening, and I think that is a microcosm of what’s happening in the larger wizarding world at this time, right? Voldemort and the Death Eaters are on the rise, and without that unity, what’s going to happen, right? What’s the end result going to be? So I think we’re getting a snapshot at Hogwarts of what’s really indicative of happening in the larger wizarding community.

Andrew: Knowing what we know now about Umbridge, it’s kind of shocking that she just sits there and takes in these comments from the Sorting Hat and does nothing to reprimand the Sorting Hat. [laughs] You would think she would torch that thing after what the hat just said.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It goes completely against what she’s trying to do there. Or enact an Educational Decree where the Sorting Hat is banned from Hogwarts. Man, she just sits there. I wish J.K. Rowling added a comment here about Umbridge twitching while the Sorting Hat is making these remarks.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah.

Laura: I never got the impression that Umbridge was that smart.

Andrew: [laughs] Like she didn’t know what the hat was saying?

Laura: Maybe, or maybe she wasn’t even really paying attention. I could see her being somebody who is so hung up in wizarding tradition that to her, it’s just like, “Oh, this is the Sorting Hat. It’s going to do its thing. I’ve heard this at least seven times in my life; I’m just going to tune this out, because it’s just a hat.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Just a hat.” It’s more than a hat, Laura.

Laura: Yeah, but I could very much see her not having respect for it because it’s not a pure-blood wizard.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: We see that that’s how she treats everything.

Micah: I like that, and especially from a procedural standpoint, because I imagine in her mind, it’s like, “Okay, it’s time for the Sorting Hat. Once that’s done, I’m going to step in and say what I have to say.” And she may even be rehearsing what she’s going to say so that she nails it in her mind.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: One thing, though, about this is just given how relevant what the Sorting Hat is saying, I liked what Nearly Headless Nick said about the hat being able to pick up things because it sits in Dumbledore’s office. So I wonder if prior to each year, does Dumbledore just sit down with the hat and be like, “Hey, look, this is how it’s going to go this year, and make sure you hit these points, and I’ll put you on a really comfy pillow for the rest of the year.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “And I’ll brush you.”

Micah: “I’ll wash you.”

Andrew: “I’ll keep the office at your desired temperature.”

Eric: Oh my God. [laughs]

Andrew: “I’ll buy you another hat that you can hang out with.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: So you can make baby skull caps or something like that.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: When two hats love each other…

Micah: I love that. That’s cool, the fact that the hat can pick up on things that are going on in Dumbledore’s office.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it once was Godric Gryffindor’s own hat, too, so you often wonder if it was biased in some way, but it appears not to have been. It’s doing the school a real solid. The problem is there isn’t very much follow-through that anyone’s doing to think deeper or do any more of a “Aha” after the Sorting Hat. Ron just says, “Branched out a bit this year, hasn’t it?” And everybody’s like, “Yeah, yeah, it kind of has. Interesting.” But there’s no follow-through. What does unity actually look like? And although we see that with Dumbledore’s Army later in the book, that’s unity under intense pressure, and if there had not been this outside pressure of Umbridge, I wonder if anybody would have actually reached across the aisle and reached across to the other Houses and really tried to follow the Sorting Hat’s advice, or would they just have forgotten it?

Laura: I think it’s hard because Sorting is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially Sorting as young as this society does. And I feel like even when we think about Houses, if somebody does something, we’ll be like, “Oh, well yeah, Andrew is a Gryffindor, so of course he would think that way.” And it’s kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy where you justify somebody’s behavior based on what House they’re in, and then people just tend to grow and accept truths about themselves based on their House identity, and that’s why you see things like… I think it’s later in this book where somebody expresses surprise that Hermione is not in Ravenclaw because of how smart she is, and it’s one of the things that I actually really admire about Hermione, is that when presented with the choice, she was like, “Well, I already got the books and the intelligence thing down, so I want to go this other path and see what comes of it, instead of just falling into what’s easy for me,” and we see Hermione actually develop as a character because she becomes far more brave over the course of the seven books than I think she would have if she’d been Sorted into Ravenclaw.

Micah: Absolutely.

Eric: Yeah, diversity strengthens these characters.

Micah: And to that point, Laura, she’s really the impetus behind Dumbledore’s Army, and I think that speaks to her courage.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: So it is nice that Nearly Headless Nick does say the school, or the hat itself, feels honor-bound to deliver this, and although times are dark, it is actually not the first time that the hat has issued a similar warning. So yeah, I’d be interested in learning what the previous circumstances surrounding that were.

Laura: Oh, I bet it totally did it during the Grindelwald conflict.

Eric: Yeah, the first wizarding war against Voldemort, a couple other times…

Andrew: “Oh, you may not think I’m pretty, but have you seen Grindelwald? Oh my God, that guy is really ugly.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Looks just like Johnny Depp. It’s weird.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So once the Sorting Hat’s song finishes, there’s a warm and welcome presence of Dumbledore, the headmaster, who steps up.

Andrew: Ahh.

Eric: What a sigh of relief. And I almost expect Harry to burst into flames and freak out, because he can’t see Dumbledore. There’s this whole thing of Dumbledore is employing this course of “Avoid him at all costs.” But for some reason, whatever scar connection is causing Harry to flip out isn’t active right now, and Harry is able to gain comfort, right? He’s seen the Thestrals.

Andrew: Yeah, I think Harry is a little in denial at this point in terms of his relationship with Dumbledore, because then at the very end of the chapter, he’s like, “Me and Dumbledore are in this together,” and I’m thinking like, “Um, he’s blocked you. He’s ghosted you. It’s over for now.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s kind of a weird setback or change of pace here for Harry to be so comforted by Dumbledore.

Andrew: Harry should have stood up in this moment and said, “Hey, Dumbledore, can we finally talk, please? Please?” And Filch escorts him out.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, man.

Andrew: Dumbledore calls for security. Pulls Harry away. [laughs]

Eric: But again, it’s the unity over common enemy, because although Harry is feeling comforted, weirdly, by Dumbledore’s presence, Dumbledore gets interrupted in his announcements, and then half the school is like, “Clearly, this woman does not know how things are done at Hogwarts.” But Professor Umbridge, Dolores Jane Umbridge, steps up and takes the opportunity to deliver her Magnum Opus to this point, her speech about prohibiting what needs to be prohibited. It’s crazy that she inter… but it’s a perfect introduction to this character, because she’s all fake sweetness and thanks Dumbledore so kindly for the introduction and invitation that he didn’t give to give a speech, and then she gives a speech!

Andrew: “And we’re going to do things my way. I don’t care if Dumbledore is talking right now. This is my school now.”

Eric: Yep. And it’s just amazing how much, I want to say, gaslighting takes place during Umbridge’s speech. She says things like, “Looking at all of your happy, smiling faces,” and Harry, who’s meanwhile point by point disagreeing and taking down – his inner monologue is really on fire right now – looks around and is like, “Nobody’s smiling. Nobody’s smiling back at Umbridge.” This is a blatant lie, and we’re just seeing that Umbridge is very much… she is able to look in the face of something and lie to her own self and everyone else as to what that face is, and here is someone who is so ignorant as to the return of Voldemort that she’s becoming dangerous to everyone. She’s a danger to everyone, and ignoring the facts that we know to be true.

Micah: Do you think she sent a note back to Fudge that night telling him how all the students were so happy that she was there and they were smiling back at her?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: I agree to some extent, but I also think that, given the setting, there has to be a little bit of embellishment, because remember, she’s talking to kids, right? So to say, “Oh, all of your smiling faces,” I get that that’s complete BS, but at the same time, this is a adult speaking to children, and so I wonder if we can look at it through that lens at all.

Eric: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, we’ve definitely… as a student, I had teachers do that all the time.

Micah: Right, exactly. I also wondered, was this payback for how Dumbledore showed up Fudge during Harry’s hearing…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … that she was going to just insert herself into the middle of Dumbledore’s opening speech?

Eric: Probably.

Andrew: Yeah, and as we spoke about a few chapters ago, Umbridge’s presence may be a direct result of that taunting little line that he had during the trial when he said, “I don’t believe the Ministry has any control over Hogwarts,” and so yeah, I think interrupting Dumbledore may also be a result of his entrance at the trial.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, it’s a real power move, for sure.

Andrew: Do you think Dumbledore should have clapped back? Or just to avoid a scene, just let it go?

Micah: I think he played it just right, quite honestly.

Eric and Laura: Yep.

Micah: I think in that situation, because it was so unexpected, he understood exactly what was going on, and to make a scene wouldn’t have done anything for him. It probably wouldn’t have come across very well to the students. And then also, Harry does a very good job of picking up the reactions and the true feelings of some of the other professors. I think it’s noted how McGonagall responds just in her facial expressions several times during Umbridge’s speech.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Sprout also. So I think Harry, he gets what’s going on here.

Eric: So even though Harry was listening, nobody was listening more intently than Hermione, who of course – and this comes up in the movie, too – perfectly summarizes Umbridge’s speech as saying, “The Ministry is interfering at Hogwarts,” and part of me still thinks it’s about time, right? We’ve had some bad teachers. This is a very security nightmare.

Micah: Yeah, totally agree. I mean, to play a bit of devil’s advocate, aren’t they just filling a post that has a high turnover and that Dumbledore has had a bad track record of filling to date? We just talked about a couple professors who are questionable in Hagrid and Trelawney, and this post has had now five different teachers in the five years that Harry has been there. Hogwarts is a security nightmare, to Andrew’s point that he brings up all the time.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s all of our points; don’t just give it to me.

Micah: Okay.

Andrew: We all are in agreement.

Eric: We all love hearing you say, “Security nightmare!”

Micah: You developed it. It’s your…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: We need an audio bite going into 2020, Andrew, of you saying that, that we can just play every time.

Andrew: Uh-huh. With sirens and stuff?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: With a little… yeah.

Andrew: I’ll think about that.

Micah: All right. Seems like you already thought about it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But yeah, I’ll play devil’s advocate here. I agree with Eric. I think it’s about time the Ministry did something here, because Dumbledore, he doesn’t have his stuff together.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And this is reflective of the push and pull that happens in our world with the relationship between government and educational institutions. So I think, for one, it depends on does Hogwarts receive funding from the Ministry? Do they get government funding?

Micah: That’s a great question.

Laura: Because if they do, then the Ministry has some right to be involved with the school; we could debate to what extent that should be. The other thing that I’ll say is that it’d be one thing if Umbridge was just filling the Defense Against the Dark Arts position, but in interrupting Dumbledore and giving this sweeping speech about educational reform, she’s made it very clear that that’s not really what she’s here to do; she’s here to try and influence how things work at the school on a macro level.

Micah: Right, and what scares me the most about this is that they’re interfering with something that these kids actually really need to learn. They need to learn it not just in theory, but in practice, especially given what… even if you put Voldemort aside, these kids need to learn how to be able to defend themselves in future situations, regardless of whether or not there are Death Eaters, and the fact that the Ministry is coming in and trying to essentially stunt their growth in this space, I think, is extremely troubling.

Laura: This reminds me of some of the struggles that we’ve had in public schools in this country, where there have been lobbies on the state and local level to influence curriculum to do away with things that make people uncomfortable, like science and also history. There was a prominent case out of Texas one or two years ago where a history textbook, instead of referring to African slaves as “slaves,” they called them “workers,” just trying to totally erase that very ugly chapter of American history because it makes people uncomfortable to think about. Well, you should be uncomfortable. That was a horrible thing.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. And on the point of these students needing to defend themselves, I think one of the biggest arguments for why they would need to learn that type of thing is because the first wizarding war had only been about 16/17 years prior. It’s fresh in everybody’s memories. It’d be one thing if there has never been major conflict, but there has been, and quite recently, so to forget about that and act like it could never happen again this soon after is pretty foolish.

Eric: You’re right. It’s particularly dangerous that she’s coming for basically the students arming themselves, being able to defend themselves. And actually, what you were saying, Laura, reminds me of contraceptive teaching, right?

Laura: Yep.

Eric: To prevent teenage pregnancy. Nobody wants teenage pregnancy; it’s not a good thing. So teach these kids how to use contraceptives so that they don’t have to worry about that situation. But there’s people that want to do away with proper sex ed. in schools, so…

Laura: Right, and it’s not because their priority is to prevent their pregnancies; their priority is to prevent what they deem to be… well, they want to prevent underage sexual activity.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And there’s just… there’s a certain reality that comes with that. In my home state of Georgia, for example, we have abstinence-only education here. That’s what I went through when I was in high school. And yet, Georgia is number three in the country for teenage pregnancy and number one for repeat teenage pregnancy.

Eric: People aren’t being informed as to how things work…

Laura: Right.

Eric: … and when they’re ending up pregnant, it’s a huge burden on everybody, especially the mother, and it’s not a system that works. So Dolores Umbridge coming in and removing people’s ability to do things like even a simple Shield Charm or whatever it was that they were going to learn this year, and say, “Oh, if you read about it, you can do it,” that’s fundamentally false. And the Ministry is playing right into Voldemort’s hands, which I’m sure we’ll talk about this at length in the future chapters. We’re going to get at least a couple Umbridge classes.

Andrew: Well, just briefly on the point about does the Ministry fund Hogwarts? I know that J.K. Rowling tweeted two or three years ago that Hogwarts is tuition-free, so you would think that the government is funding school.

Eric: Yeah, and there are governors. There is a Board of Governors that Lucius Malfoy often bribes to make changes at Hogwarts, including the removal of the headmaster. And ultimately, this is the only school in Britain, presumably, so these are our children, right? These are the citizens of Britain’s children. There definitely needs to be some government oversight there, and there is some government oversight because otherwise, the government wouldn’t authorize Hogwarts as an institution. In return, they need to have some kind of control over the curriculum and who’s running it, and the style, for sure, and to ensure what laws are being followed as well.

Laura: And that also… I mean, it just… there’s so many real world scenarios that you can connect this to, and as a former teacher, I can say that one of the most frustrating things about being in education is having people on the government side of things trying to mandate things upon the institution when they themselves have no background in pedagogical theory or education, or have never stood in front of a classroom and taught before.

Eric: I’m reminded of No Child Left Behind, right? Which is… it imposes… threatens loss of funding for underperforming schools, without getting at the issue of why they’re underperforming and working to solve that crisis.

Laura: Well, or the fact that teachers will be penalized if a certain percentage of their students don’t perform well on standardized tests, when you consider the fact that a teacher has impact on maybe 30% of that student’s life, and they have this whole other life outside of the school that’s influencing them, but the onus is being put 100% on the teacher to make sure that student performs. It’s a real problem.

Eric: So definitely some interesting thoughts with Umbridge’s… what her being at Hogwarts means for the state of education. I really like that we kind of deep dived there. But following the feast, Harry has a surprise waiting in store for him up in the Gryffindor dormitory. Dean and Seamus are not the same Dean and Seamus that Harry knows and can rely on; at least Seamus isn’t, because he’s in a difficult position. I feel for Seamus here.

Andrew: Me too.

Eric: Thank you. Seamus’s mother has been really influenced, and frankly, let’s look at the facts. Dumbledore gave a speech at the end of the last year about Cedric Diggory’s death, saying Voldemort is back. He told everybody, “Voldemort is back,” but you go home from school and your crazy principal, who’s kind of a bit of a nutter, has told everybody Voldemort is back, but it’s not being reported in the news! And you have all summer for the Daily Prophet, for your main news source – like the New York Times, Chicago Sun Times, LA Times – everybody is saying Voldemort is not back, and you’re subject to months and months and months of “Voldemort is not back,” and nobody’s hearing Harry’s side of things. Who are you more apt and inclined to believe if you’re a person who always relied on these news organizations to tell you what was and what wasn’t in this world?

Andrew: And it doesn’t sit right with me that Dumbledore did not do anything. Or maybe he did foresee this situation coming up, I don’t know, but then to let Harry come back to Hogwarts and deal with all these people who are thinking that Harry made that whole story up about Cedric… I think he should have said something in his opening speech.

Eric: Ooh.

Andrew: Or maybe he didn’t because he was afraid of what Umbridge would do? But it just seems irresponsible of Dumbledore to let Harry hang like this, because he’s going to deal with this a lot, and it’s unfair for a teenager to go through.

Eric: I wonder if we need a Dumbledore Sucks counter to start…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … because he’s really put a situation in Harry’s lap, like you say.

Andrew: We would need to start back in Book 1. That would be fun to do, though, in a loving way.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I do think Seamus is a bit of a prat, though, just the way that he’s acting towards Harry. He’s trying to dig out information that Harry clearly doesn’t want to provide, but also shouldn’t have to, because I don’t believe that him telling Seamus what happened in the graveyard is going to, in any way, alter Seamus’s opinion of him and Dumbledore at this time.

Andrew: I think it would. A face-to-face retelling of what happened? And to see the emotion in Harry’s face as he’s recalling this? It would definitely be difficult for Harry to do, but I mean, we see this in movies all the time. You have a heart to heart with somebody and then they believe you.

Micah: But should he have to, though? Because think of how many people, then, he would have to do that for.

Andrew: Well, so then they do this interview later in the book, which I think was a good idea. So no, he shouldn’t have these face-to-face, one-on-ones with everybody, but maybe just the people in his dorm? [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, the people he has to sleep next to all year. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, and Harry acknowledges that he never had the chance to tell the school what happened. So I think Harry does feel like that is necessary, or at least J.K. Rowling is trying to make the reader believe that that was necessary.

Micah: It’s just hard because I do see why Seamus would feel the way that he does. His mother obviously has a lot of influence on him, and she may be struggling herself to understand exactly what is going on, and she may not want to send her son back to a school where this old man is just rambling about the return of Dark wizards, and her son has to sleep in the same dormitory as Harry; I’m sure she knows that. And just given all the things that have befallen Harry over the course of these first couple of years he’s been at Hogwarts, maybe she feels like Hogwarts is a security nightmare.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I do wonder, though, in the cases of these parents who think about not sending their kids back to school, would Seamus’s mother be considering sending him to a different wizarding school? Surely she wants him to be educated. [laughs]

Andrew: I think so, but what are the options? I don’t think we know of anything else in the UK, do we?

Laura: No, but he’d have to go to Beauxbatons or Durmstrang or Ilvermorny. Either way, he’s going to a different country.

Micah: What would they call him there? Shay-mu?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Here in America where we don’t understand pronunciations of things, they would call him Seem-us.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s what I was going to say because I definitely pronounced his name that way when I was first reading the books. [laughs] I’m just going to call you Sean for short. Seamus?

Micah: [laughs] But this is a tough scene, though, for Harry, because I think that he just doesn’t feel validated in any way, and he really hasn’t since the start of this book. You think of all the things that he’s gone through, and then he gets up to his dormitory; the reaction that he has when he comes into the Gryffindor common room is just one of comfort, he finally feels safe to some extent, and then that’s completely thrown in disarray once he goes up to his bed and he has this fight with Seamus, and it’s like no place he can go where he actually feels that he can get away from any of this. And I think that’s the continued isolation that we see him go through, and he’s been through in many instances already since this book started. And good on Neville, though. Finally somebody stands up for Harry.

Eric: Yeah, Neville. And Ron comes in with the saving, “Does anybody else have a problem with Harry?” And earlier in the chapter, J.K. Rowling referred to Ron as though he were a mildly amusing television program, and he’s definitely chewing on chicken while trying to speak to Nearly Headless Nick, who’s deathly sad that he can’t eat food anymore; he’s very insensitive. But he comes to Harry’s aid, and he is a really good friend to him. And I really appreciate Ron. I really appreciate Neville in the chapter’s end.

Laura: I do want to say there’s the scene that made me laugh in the middle of this whole tense argument when Seamus goes and sits in his four-poster and so angrily yanks his curtains that they all fall down.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: We’ve all had that moment, though, where we’re…

Laura: Oh, I was like, “That’s me.” That would totally happen to me, trying to make a point and just like, “Well, fine!” And then it all falls down.

Andrew: [laughs] Didn’t he…? Was it him who brought his wand to bed? That’s a little…

Eric: He should be this afraid.

Andrew: Man, he’s afraid somebody’s going to attack him in the night?

Micah: Yeah, just think about Sirius. He was able to get in there.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Criminals are able to get into… yeah. But I would just go back to what we said earlier, that this is a perfect representation of discord happening, not just amongst Harry with other Houses, but within his own House and with people who are close to him, and I think that just speaks to the current state of things right now for Harry.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s not like Seamus is like, “I won’t believe you. I won’t listen to reason.” It’s that Seamus and Dean, to their credit, it’s like, “Can you just give us a little bit more information as to what…?” And Harry shouldn’t have to. You’re right, you’re right. Harry should not have to, and he’s getting very triggered by the thought of this, and presumably still having nightmares about Voldemort’s return, which happened only three or four months ago. But they need that little bit of…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: They just need an opposing viewpoint, right? Like, “Just tell us something.”

Andrew: Yeah, right. And maybe Ron should have stepped in here and privately spoken with them. Come on, Ron. Be a good friend.

Eric: [laughs] So it is a bit concerning that Harry, again, is a little isolated here, and is just having to deal with some new problems in this new year, this new school year, which we’ll talk about more in the new year.

Laura: And I do like that this forces Harry to put himself in Dumbledore’s shoes and empathize with him a bit, and realize, “Oh, because Dumbledore believed me and took my side, he probably faced the same kind of situation with his peers.”

Eric: Yeah. I mean, Seamus brings up the Wizengamot and Dumbledore’s removal from that, and Seamus is seeing it as like, “Oh, this was this highfalutin government appointment in the government, and Dumbledore’s removal means that he wasn’t qualified,” but Seamus is failing to see the nuance there of “If the government is corrupt, leaving the institution is actually a good move that means good things and shows character.” So bit concerning there, but ultimately, Seamus’s argument kind of makes sense here. You hate it, but you can’t help but see where it came from.

Andrew: All right, well, I think we’re off to a good start with chapters we’ve never discussed here on MuggleCast before.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s time for the Umbridge Suck count. At last check, Umbridge sucked seven times; I think we’re going to add a few to the board today. First of all, interrupting Dumbledore. And we didn’t do it earlier, but of course, she has that classic “Hem-hem” thing going on throughout the book, which was brilliantly brought to screen, I thought.

Micah: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: And when Emerson and I spoke to Imelda Staunton on the red carpet for Order of the Phoenix, Emerson very smartly asked her to do, “MuggleNet, hem-hem!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: You could probably just get the audio from that.

Laura: No, and honestly, we have to say she was perfect casting.

Eric: Superb. Absolutely perfect. You look at somebody that’s a larger than life character in Umbridge, and you’re like, “How are they ever…?” And Slughorn is the same. “How are you ever going to bring this into a human level?” But Imelda Staunton absolutely nails it. It’s pitch perfect.

Laura: Yep. I do want to say she is far more attractive than the Umbridge that we get in the books, but that’s also Hollywood for you.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: You don’t think she looks like a toad in the films?

Laura: No.

Andrew: I’m sorry, Imelda. You weren’t toady enough. We didn’t like your portrayal.

Laura: [laughs] No, she was brilliant. I’ve also heard rumors that she’s apparently being considered to play the Queen, when they age her up the next time in The Crown.

Eric: I heard that too.

Andrew: Oh, cool.

Laura: Yeah. Oh, that would be amazing.

Eric: I’ve seen her other work, and it’s amazing. She’s always very, very good.

Andrew: So plus one for interrupting Dumbledore. Another point for boring everyone with her speech.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Except for Hermione; she was just scared. Another point for being so bold as to say everyone was smiling at her when they were not.

Laura: And then I said one for wearing a cardigan over her robes.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Like, what?

Andrew: Not a good look?

Eric: Hogwarts is a fashion nightmare!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But I just… I don’t… can you imagine how weird that would look? Why?

Andrew: That would look weird.

Laura: Yeah, your clothing goes under your robes. Get with it, Umbridge.

Andrew: [laughs] So that’s four. One…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Two…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Three…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Four…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Added to the board.

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: Up to 11.

Andrew: Yes. Let’s update that now so we don’t forget.

Micah: And I can’t imagine how high it’s going to go once we read the next chapter, because it is, in fact, all about her.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: God.

---

Connecting the Threads

---

Laura: All right, well, we have some threads to connect today. The first one is Ministry interference at Hogwarts; that’s really the theme of this book. But in Chapter 11 of Prisoner of Azkaban, we learn that Buckbeak has to appear before a committee for attacking Draco. This is at the insistence of Lucius Malfoy, who has a lot of influence over the government and is clearly paying people off in order to get what he wants to happen at Hogwarts. Then in Chapter 11 of Order of the Phoenix, Umbridge makes it clear in her speech that the Ministry plans to interfere with the school. We also have a thread to connect with Hagrid. So at the start of term feast, which in Prisoner of Azkaban which was Chapter 5, Hagrid was announced as the Care of Magical Creatures instructor. And then at the start of term feast in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, Hagrid is missing from the high table and Professor Grubbly-Plank is announced as the Care of Magical Teacher… Care of Magical Teachers? Care of Magical Creatures instructor.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Some of those teachers do need to be cared for.

Laura: They do need care.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: And then we also have a connection with Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers. Lupin, who protected Harry from a Dementor in Prisoner of Azkaban, is announced as the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher during the opening ceremony feast in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5. And then Umbridge, who actually sent Dementors after Harry, is announced as the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher during the opening feast in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11.

Eric: Wow. Good stuff.

---

MVP of the Week

---

Andrew: Okay. My MVP of the Week is the Sorting Hat for risking death when he made that speech in front of Umbridge. I thought that took guts. And yes, the hat does have guts.

Micah: [laughs] My MVP goes to McGonagall because her facial expressions just said it all throughout Umbridge’s speech.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I liked the descriptions of her eyebrows.

Micah: Yeah, she’s just low-key savage. I’d love to know what she was thinking.

Laura: Yep. I gave mine to Neville for being the friend that Harry needed.

Andrew: Aww. Yeah, you couldn’t help but have a swell of pride for Neville and his grandmother when he stood up for Harry.

Eric: Agreed. And I gave mine to Hufflepuff Ernie Macmillan, who… [laughs] Harry, during Umbridge’s speech, he’s looking around, seeing nobody smiling. He sees Ernie Macmillan. It says he was “one of the few still staring at Professor Umbridge, but he was glassy-eyed and Harry was sure he was only pretending to listen in an attempt to live up to the new prefect’s badge gleaming on his chest.” So Ernie Macmillan is powering through, trying not to fall asleep and make a scene, and he succeeds.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, Ernie Macmillan is all of us trying to be responsible.

[Everyone laughs]

---

Rename the Chapter

---

Micah: Time now for Rename the Chapter. I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Defense Against the Dark Arts: Take 5.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!”

Eric: Nice.

Micah: Do we have the audio?

[Pink Floyd’s “Another Brick in the Wall” plays]

Eric: I love that. I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Convenient passwords.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: We learn that this year’s password is Neville’s gift. [laughs]

Micah: Okay, there’s not many times in the series where you can call J.K. Rowling a lazy writer.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: This is definitely one of them because…

Eric: Like, “Oh, Harry doesn’t know the password. Who’s going to save him? Oh, it’s Neville. Neville, what’s the password?” “Oh, you know how last chapter I told you I got Mimbulus Mimbletonia? It turns out it’s ‘Mimbulus Mimbletonia.'”

Andrew: [laughs] What is up with that?

Eric: Wow. Crazy.

Micah: And by the way, a quick J.K. Rowling update, because I know we’ve been talking about how she’s absent from Twitter? She was in New York this week.

Eric: Receiving an award.

Andrew: Did you say hi?

Micah: I did not, but actually, somebody I work with came up to me yesterday and they told me, “Hey, I was at this gala last night, and J.K. Rowling was there,” and she had a picture with J.K. Rowling.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Micah: “Couldn’t you have taken me as your plus one? What the…?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Could have given her a MuggleCast bookmark and a tote bag and a mug. [laughs]

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: We should send her a care package of all those things; see what happens.

Micah: We should.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But at least we know she’s alive, so…

Andrew: [laughs] That’s good. Finally, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Happy little faces. Hem-hem!”

Laura: Ugh, that just made me squirm.

Andrew: [in a high-pitched voice] “Hem-hem!”

Micah: [laughs] Was that Mickey Mouse?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Cross between Mickey Mouse and Umbridge. If you have any feedback about today’s chapter discussion, we would love to hear from you. Email us, MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form at MuggleCast.com. And you can also send us a voice memo so we can hear you; just email it to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Or call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.

---

Quizzitch

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Eric: And it’s time for Quizzitch. Last week’s question: Who is the first person Sorted into Gryffindor in Harry’s fifth year? The answer, of course, because the Sorting Hat in the books is alphabetical, the answer is Euan Abercrombie, or Abercrombie, comma, Euan.

Micah: [in a deep voice] Euan.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Where was that from? I feel like…

Eric: Oh, maybe Game of Thrones?

Andrew: Sounds Thrones-y.

Eric: There’s Maester Euan. Or Luwin. I’m confused. But anyway, correct answers were submitted by Sarah a.k.a. Weensie, Lara Catherine, Count Ravioli, Harry Potter Fan Zone participated…

Andrew: Excuse me? I love Andy.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: He’s playing now? Wow.

Eric: Yeah, they got in on the action. That was nuts.

Micah: Yeah, how is Andy?

Andrew: I don’t know.

Eric: Presumably, pretty good.

Andrew: I actually hear from him from time to time. Seems like he’s doing all right.

Eric: Hey, Andy. Hey, Harry Potter Fan Zone. How’s it going? Euan the Quidditch player, Lightning McJingles, Amber Forrester, Pronvie, Jason, and Marie, as well as others. Thank you to all who submitted. And actually, we can’t do a Quizzitch this week because there’s… our next episode is recording in 30 minutes…

Andrew: [laughs] Fair enough.

Eric: … so there’s going to be no opportunity for people… it wouldn’t be fair to hold another Quizzitch round, so there will be one on next week’s episode, but there’s not actually a next week’s question this time.

Andrew: Ahh, okay. Yeah, well, that makes sense. Yes, next week is our big Decade in Review for the Harry Potter fandom; we’re going to be reliving the biggest moments in fandom from the past ten years. It’s interesting, the decade began with the final two Harry Potter movies, and it ended with the first two Fantastic Beasts movies, and it’s really been a decade of transition in the wizarding world, so we’re going to talk about everything that has happened. It’s going to be fun. It’s going to be a great way to end the year. And do you guys know that MuggleCast ended and came back in the past decade? So it’s been very eventful for us as well.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, it only took, what, one episode, was it? Didn’t we end and then we were back two weeks later?

Andrew: It was literally two weeks after we ended MuggleCast that J.K. Rowling announced Fantastic Beasts.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We would love your support on Patreon; it is what keeps this show going. We are weekly because of our Patreon supporters. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can pledge, and in return, you will receive instant access to lots of benefits, including bonus MuggleCast. You will be able to also tune in as we are recording our livestreams, you will get ad-free MuggleCast, you will get access to our show notes, and a whole lot more. We will be announcing new benefits in the new year, so stay tuned, including our annual physical gift. And while we may not announce that one for a few months, we can tell you it’s going to be a good one, because 2020 is MuggleCast’s 15th anniversary.

[Laura gasps]

Andrew: So we’re very excited.

Laura: Oh my God, that makes me feel so old.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: MC15, baby! It almost rhymes.

Micah: Hashtag it.

Andrew: I love it. So thank you to everybody. Whether or not you are a Patreon supporter, we really appreciate that you listen to us, that you support us through following us, through listening to us, and maybe even pledging, so thank you, thank you, thank you. We are so grateful that you are a part of our lives, and we hope we’ve been giving you lots of joy over the past 15 years. So with that, thank you, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Goodbye!

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #445, Less Than Prefect (OOTP Chapter 10, Luna Lovegood)

---

Show Intro

---

[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Vanessa Zoltan: And I’m Vanessa.

Andrew: Hi, Vanessa, from Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. How are you?

Vanessa: I’m well, thank you. How are you?

Andrew: Good, good, good. Tell us about yourself and tell us about the podcast.

Vanessa: So I am one half of the podcast Harry Potter and the Sacred Text with my cohost Casper ter Kuile, and we are a chapter by chapter read-through of Harry Potter, in which we treat Harry Potter as if it was the Bible. So it is like a Bible study podcast, but we use Harry Potter instead of the Bible.

Andrew: Interesting.

Laura: That’s great.

Vanessa: It’s a lot more fun.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. When did you become a Harry Potter fan?

Vanessa: You know, I was really late. It’s terrible. I was in my 20s and started dating this guy who was like, “I don’t think this relationship will work if you don’t read the Harry Potter books.”

[Everyone laughs]

Vanessa: And I was like, “I’ve been meaning to get around to them,” and so I started reading them, and I was like, “Okay, these are really good.”

Andrew: That’s hilarious.

Vanessa: Yeah, and we swapped books. I made him read Jane Eyre and he made me read Harry Potter, and actually, Jane Eyre is now one of his favorite books. It was such a good swap.

Andrew: Oh, that’s fantastic. And I assume he hosts Jane Eyre and the Sacred Text? [laughs]

Vanessa: He does! Everybody go listen to that fake podcast. It’s great.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Vanessa: Yeah, and obviously, it changed my life. And I’ll just say, the more I read the books, the more I love them. I just keep, obviously, rereading them; I’m on my fifth time now. Hot take, guys: The Harry Potter books are, like, really good.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: You’re sure of this after reading them for the fifth time. [laughs]

Vanessa: I am. I am very committed to this great idea of mine that the Harry Potter books are good.

Andrew: Yeah. Okay, well, welcome to the show. We’re glad to have you on.

Vanessa: I’m so happy to be here.

Andrew: Good, good. You mentioned that you do a chapter by chapter reread. This week we are doing our own Chapter by Chapter, Order of the Phoenix Chapter 10, “Luna Lovegood.” But first, some Muggle Mail, and actually, before those emails, just want to say thank you to everybody who participated in Saturday’s MuggleCast holiday giveaway on Twitter. Micah was running it behind the scenes. And Micah, you were having a blast, weren’t you?

Micah: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And right off the bat, I asked you, Andrew; I said, “You know what? This first prize…” We were giving away the Goblet of Fire illustrated edition. “It’s not fun to just give away one; let’s give away three.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And it became a recurring trend throughout the course of the giveaway, because it’s fun. It’s the holiday spirit; you should be in the giving mood. And I tried to be funny and creative in the conversation that was going on. I know Eric loved one tweet in particular; isn’t that right?

Andrew: Yeah, Micah got really dirty about Arthur Weasley and the thrift store.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I was like, “Whoa, it’s Saturday morning. Oh my gosh, it’s too early for this.” Of course, I loved it, but also, oh my gosh.

Eric: I loved all the tweets, Micah. It’s just, yeah, your energy, man. It was a well-run campaign.

Micah: Yeah, the prize that we were giving away in that particular tweet was the puzzle from the New York Puzzle Company.

Eric: Ah, yes.

Micah: The winner could pick their choice of a puzzle, and I just said, “Be mindful that these puzzles are harder than Mr. Weasley in a Muggle thrift store.”

[Andrew and Vanessa laugh]

Micah: And it was just a good opportunity to have some fun.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Remind us, yeah. Absolutely. So thank you to everybody who participated at Twitter.com/MuggleCast. That was a lot of fun, like Micah said, so I’m sure we’ll do another one in the future, and we’ll have to maybe make sure Micah doesn’t run up the bill so high like he did yesterday. [laughs]

Vanessa: I am so disturbed by the idea that Arthur Weasley might have a penis.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Right, because he’s like your dad, right? It’s like, “Euhh.”

Vanessa: He’s like a Ken doll. Everything is smooth down there.

Andrew: There you go.

[Eric laughs]

Eric: But then how did he father seven children?

Laura: Right, I was going to say he’s used it at least seven times.

Vanessa: Immaculate conception, guys. I am a 12-year-old of maturity when it comes to things like this.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, we apologize for sullying that.

Vanessa: Yes, how dare you?

Eric: Or Micah apologizes for sullying that.

Micah: Wait, seven or six? Because don’t Fred and George count as one?

Andrew: Oh, there you go.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Vanessa: Thank God. Okay, I can live with that. He had sex six times.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Only six times. We got some emails in regards to our holiday gift guide episode – that was two weeks ago – which was a lot of fun to do, by the way. And everybody really enjoyed our recommendations, it seems, so we’re glad people liked that episode. Sarah said,

“I just listened to the latest podcast about gifts and games. I wanted to recommend Fantastic Beasts Perilous Pursuit. You play as a team and try to capture different beasts. You play as one of the core four from Fantastic Beasts and roll dice to try and capture beasts like the Niffler or Thunderbird. We have played with people that knew nothing about Harry Potter or Fantastic Beasts, and they still had fun. Highly recommend.”

So thank you, Sarah, for that.

Eric: I’m trying to figure out if I’ve played this game. I think I might have. The Perilous Pursuit. Yeah, I thought it was really fun. The next email comes from Dani, who says that the massive Lego Harry Potter castle we talked about on our gift guide episode… they say,

“It’s AMAZING. My favorite rooms are probably Umbridge’s office (it’s so pink!), or the giant chess set, or moving staircases with portraits behind. The little sets on the side like the Whomping Willow that moves (with a tiny Ford Anglia!) and Hagrid’s hut are also very well designed. The Great Hall also has stained glass windows, and there are Dementors flying over the castle, and the Hungarian Horntail, and the four Hogwarts founders. You mentioned the size of the people being a problem, but it really isn’t. To me it just made it more unique, and you can still tell who the people are. I have loved figuring out where to put all the people to make lots of different scenes from the movies. The whole thing is just so magical, and it’s so incredible how they were able to combine scenes and rooms from all of the books into one set. The building process itself was also absolutely incredible. It took me 16 hours over the course of three days…”

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

“… while I listened to podcasts (yours and others) nonstop. It is now sitting on a desk in my room, and it is the first thing I see every time I walk in and it just makes me SO happy. This is by far the best Harry Potter merch I own, and probably will ever own. No matter where I move, it will be with me. If you can afford it, trust me, it is worth it.”

Andrew: That’s great. Thank you, Dani, for sharing that. I think you just inspired some people to buy it themselves.

Eric: It’s $400, FYI, is the price tag.

Micah: The real question, Eric, is did you go to Phoenix during Thanksgiving to help our other listener build theirs?

Eric: I did not. However, I did reach out with some helpful, helpful tips, and hopefully… I’ve actually been meaning to check in. Our listener Mariah wrote in and said that all of her family that was there for the day left before pitching in to complete the set, so she was all alone and didn’t get to build it.

Andrew: Well, if you’re nice to Micah, he might continue to be generous with the MuggleCast credit card and just buy that for you, so just play your cards right.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: That could have been another good prize to give away. We didn’t think about that.

Andrew: A $400 Lego set?!

Micah: $400 is a little steep. We did give away, as the final prize, a standard print from MinaLima, so that…

Andrew: Yeah, that’s pricey too.

Micah: That’s not going to take you 16 hours over the course of three days; it’s just going to require you to purchase a frame and hang it in your apartment or your home. So a lot of the items that we did talk about on Episode 444, we in turn then gave away on this Twitter holiday giveaway, and it’s very interesting to see, in some cases, how certain items are now sold out. I’d like to think that we had something to do with that.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Micah brought a lot of business to the Puzzle Company. He’s not even kidding; half of those puzzles are sold out now. [laughs]

Micah: Right. And by the way, those puzzles are really hard; I know Eric talked about it when you made that recommendation. I’m still working through the Shrieking Shack, and they take probably close to the same amount of time as putting together this Lego Hogwarts Castle, though. Before we get started with Chapter by Chapter, wanted to let you know that today’s episode of MuggleCast is brought to you by a company that Dumbledore and Dobby would love: Bombas.

[Ad break]

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Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

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Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Chapter 10 of Order of the Phoenix, “Luna Lovegood,” and as always, we’ll start with our seven-word summary. And Vanessa, how this is going to work is we’re actually each going to contribute a word to create a sentence.

Vanessa: Got it.

Andrew: So you can go ahead.

Vanessa: Chaos…

Andrew: [laughs] … reigns…

Laura: … during…

Micah: … the…

Eric: … journey…

Vanessa: … to…

Laura: … Hogwarts.

Andrew: Yay, a sentence!

Vanessa: That was such a good team effort.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “Chaos” is a great first word. Really starting off the sentence.

Andrew: Yeah, we’ve never used that before.

Micah: Better than “Harry.”

[Eric and Vanessa laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, I would have been lazy and just said “Harry.”

Vanessa: This chapter… anyway. I’m going to hold off my analysis.

Micah: Oh, no, you…

Vanessa: There’s so much chaos.

Micah: Jump in whatever.

Vanessa: It starts with Fred and George pushing Ginny down two flights! Two flights of stairs!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That’s really mean.

Vanessa: It’s terrible. As some of you know, I fell down six stairs at LeakyCon and I tore all the ligaments in my ankle.

Andrew: Oh, God.

Vanessa: So poor Ginny.

Andrew: Did Fred and George push you down?

Vanessa: Yes, George pushed me down.

Andrew: Oh. Oh my gosh.

Vanessa: And by George, I mean, I was texting while running downstairs.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

---

Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

---

Micah: So the chapter begins with Harry having one of his crazy dreams, and I guess we should just refresh that at the end of the last chapter – because it’s been a couple weeks – Harry had walked in on Mrs. Weasley, who was having a terrible experience with the boggart. And in Harry’s dream, his parents are weaving in and out, but they’re never speaking to him. Mrs. Weasley is crying over Kreacher’s dead body with Hermione and Ron looking on wearing crowns, and then it wraps up with that corridor ending in a locked door yet again. So the corridor is there, the locked door is there; that’s a recurring theme. But there’s some weird stuff going on in this dream. I’m wondering what Harry took before he went to bed.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, it was a rough day, that previous day. And I think wearing crowns is interesting, because it sounded like by the end of the last chapter, things were put in perspective for him. He was like, “Oh, okay, it’s not a big deal that Ron and Hermione are prefects because there’s a lot more serious things to worry about,” and yet he’s still dreaming about them being in a higher position than he is, so he’s not really over it.

Micah: Do we make anything of Kreacher’s dead body? We know he survives.

Vanessa: Is it a premonition about Dobby? You know how…?

Eric: The casualties of war, the indirect casualties maybe, I think, with war looming. Kreacher is the one I can’t figure out, but I had the idea that Lily and James walking around in the background never speaking to Harry is representative of how Dumbledore is in the background here and there, never speaking directly to Harry. And we know that Harry sees Dumbledore as kind of a guide or a would-be father figure, if only Dumbledore would pay him attention, so I think maybe that’s the representation of his Dumbledore anxiety.

Laura: Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with isolation, and I like the idea that Mrs. Weasley crying over Kreacher’s dead body is a representation of how nobody treats Kreacher very well in life. So this idea that somebody only gets the positive treatment that they deserve in death.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: And that could just be part of this whole manifestation of Harry’s anxieties about isolation.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a thoughtful answer. I was just going to say Harry wants Kreacher dead.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It’s a fantasy.

Laura: Also, dreams are weird. Dreams are just weird. Sometimes weird things happen in dreams and you’re like, “Huh? What was that about?”

Vanessa: I do not think that Harry wishes Kreacher dead, though. I will come out swinging on that.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: No, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa: But what do I think? Yeah, I guess I just agree that sometimes dreams are mashups of songs that don’t go together, and you’re like, “What?”

Micah: Yeah, and you actually just mentioned everybody’s in a terrible rush. It always seems to be the case that whenever they’re trying to catch the Hogwarts Express to go back to school, something is always up. They’re always late out the door. It’s not as if they don’t know what day and time it leaves every single year.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But suffice it to say, people are getting knocked down the stairs and pushed out of the way, and we’re about to embark on this journey to King’s Cross. And somebody wants to join in…

Andrew: Woof woof!

Micah: … and this is a questionable move on the part of Sirius, to get outside of Grimmauld Place and to really get into a public setting. And there’s not a whole lot of pushback on Sirius, and I wonder if it’s just because everybody is in such a hurry to get the kids to King’s Cross. And Molly turns to Sirius before they leave, and she says, “On your own head be it,” and I wondered if this was another one of those statements that could be considered an omen of what is to come for Sirius. It’s not necessarily foretelling of his death, but it’s kind of like, “Hey, this is on you. You’re making this decision and you have to suffer the consequences.”

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think it’s representative of the rash behavior that we see from Sirius throughout the book that does ultimately result in his death.

Andrew: The question of whether or not Sirius should have gone, though, is an interesting one because if nobody really does know that Sirius can transform into a dog – which we learn later people do know that, including Draco and Lucius – then it’s not much of a problem, right? Because what would the risk be there if nobody truly knew? And I think the assumption was that nobody truly knew.

Eric: That was the assumption. I just think of Sirius’s mental state being sort of forced out of the house. I mean, we know it’s his choice to come dog Harry, but ultimately he has been cooped up for so long, Dumbledore asking him to remain. The rest of the Order members can come and go as they please, but Sirius has really felt like a prisoner, not for the first time in his life, in his own home, and I just think of his mental state. And I actually found a lot of joy in reading that Sirius is, I don’t know, chasing pigeons around and local neighborhood cats for Harry’s amusement. I thought it was a really touching moment between godfather and godson. And so although in the book, it’s characterized as very reckless by pretty much everyone, I found it to be really touching between the two of them.

Vanessa: But what is…? I completely agree that it’s a very endearing moment, and that is actually a safe moment, right? Where he’s behaving as a dog. But even Harry says, “Stop it. Behave like a dog.” And I do think that this is high school Sirius, and again, this isn’t his fault, right? He went to prison shortly after high school, and we know that traumatic experiences can emotionally stunt us, but… and I don’t want to call him emotionally stunted, but he’s behaving recklessly in a strutty way that strikes me as very immature, like thumbing his nose at authority, intentionally being like, “I can get away with this. I can get away with anything.” Yeah, and I see Molly’s comment, really, as an omen of “You are so reckless, and this is going to come and get you; I am washing my hands of you,” which is something that I feel pretty hard, right? Casper, my cohost, we’ve had this fight. He doesn’t wear a bike helmet and bikes everywhere.

Andrew: Oh, Casper!

Vanessa: I know, and in a very harsh moment of our friendship – because I was so desperately anxious about seeing him without a helmet – I was like, “If you die because you’re not wearing a helmet, I won’t even grieve you.”

Eric: Wow.

Vanessa: I know, and we got into a big fight about it. And I obviously didn’t mean it, but I was just so mad at how reckless he was being that I was like, “Do you know what? Screw you.” That’s why I just really feel for Molly in this moment of “I love you, and Harry loves you, and you are just not being safe.” And it is frustrating to watch someone you love not take care in those moments.

Andrew: Yeah. And Molly has got enough to worry about, so Sirius also coming along is just not what she needs right now.

Vanessa: Right.

Andrew: I think Sirius also just should have played more coy out in the field. He should not have been jumping up on Harry, licking Harry, playing with Harry. Do that to Ron, Hermione, or somebody else, because people are going to notice that and be like, “Hmm, why is that dog so into Harry? Did he get a dog over the summer?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Does anybody he really love able to turn into a dog?” It’s too much.

Micah: Right, and we have to assume, at this point, that Peter Pettigrew has passed along information to Voldemort and to the Death Eaters…

Laura: Right.

Micah: … as to the fact that Sirius can transform into a dog, and this just puts him front and center. And we learn later, obviously, that Malfoy was aware of this, and that’s information that’s valuable to the Death Eaters. And I think this is the starting point of them being able to find a way to lure Harry, ultimately, away from Hogwarts at the end of the book; they know that Sirius is alive and well, and he’s with the Order and he’s with Harry, and Harry has this connection to him, so I think this was a big misstep on the part of Sirius.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a great point.

Micah: Molly, though… Molly does kind of mess up a little bit, whether she says it in a soft tone or a loud tone. I know you wrote here that she whispered it, but she does say Sirius’s name, and I thought that’s a huge mistake on her part. I don’t care what the setting is. They’re out in public, they’re on the track – or the platform, rather – and she should be smarter than that.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, using aliases cannot, at this point, be a foreign concept to her. And he’s already adopted the name Snuffles for when he’s a dog.

Laura: Right.

Eric: It’s built in. Just call him Snuffles.

Vanessa: Or like, “Pain in the butt.” It’s not like she… just call him a swear word.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: We’ve all had that frustrating moment with our dog where we’re like, “Hey.”

Andrew: Yeah. Me every day, pretty much.

[Eric laughs]

Vanessa: My partner doesn’t have a middle name, and so I make up different middle names for when I’m mad at him.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, that’s fun. Do you call him Sirius?

Vanessa: No, it’s been Chester for a little while now.

Andrew: Chester. That’s a good holiday one, I feel.

Vanessa: Yeah. I’m like, “Peter Chester,” mostly when he obliterates me at a game.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Vanessa: How dare he?

Micah: One other bit of information that we get as everybody’s arriving at King’s Cross Station: Moody mentions that Sturgis Podmore is MIA, and this is the second time in the past week or so that he’s failed to report for duty, and Moody is going to make sure that that information gets back to Dumbledore. And that’s just a little note that’s dropped in there by J.K. Rowling that we should be concerned, probably, for good old Sturgis, in some way.

Andrew: But Moody doesn’t seem too concerned, does he? He just thinks that this could be another Mundungus situation where the guy is just sucking, right?

Micah: Yeah, no, I mean, it definitely could be, though Sturgis seems to have a little bit higher standing than somebody like Mundungus. And maybe Moody just knows him, and he’s like, “Oh, Sturgis, up to no…” I don’t know.

Andrew: “Sleepy Sturgis.”

Micah: But we should be concerned for him.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, that’s my point; it just doesn’t seem like Moody is very alarmed at the fact that he’s missing for a second time. In this setting, in this situation, they should be highly concerned when somebody like Sturgis is missing. That should set off all the red alarms and red flags, and Sirius shouldn’t be running around, because there’s danger afoot. Some of them are being caught now.

Vanessa: Yeah, there’s also just a weird… have they learned nothing from the Bertha Jorkins incident? There’s just a lot of chill around missing people in the wizarding world that I don’t quite understand.

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: If someone is ten minutes late – and this could be my Jewish upbringing – but if someone’s ten minutes late, I assume they’re dead.

[Eric laughs]

Vanessa: And there’s Apparition, and there are a million ways to communicate.

Andrew: Right.

Vanessa: Why would someone just not show up? Why are people so relaxed about that? It’s very strange.

Andrew: Yeah, Moody is just like, “Oh, I’ll get around to telling Dumbledore. I’ll find out at some point. In the meanwhile, let’s all stay out in the open.”

Eric: This was the ’90s, everybody. [laughs] There was no cell phones. This is mid-’90s communication.

Vanessa: But they can send Patronuses! I like Patroni. They can send Patroni being like, “Hello, can’t make it.”

Micah: It’s very true. Very, very true. This scene also reminded me very much as a precursor to the Seven Potters in Deathly Hallows, because everybody’s arriving with different people. I don’t know if you guys got that sense as well.

Eric: Definitely. Whenever the Order’s on the move, it does feel like it’s written in a clever way. Even this chapter, she’s talking about not only who’s coming with who to the King’s Cross Station, but on the train as well, people are moving compartments, and specific pets are with each person. Somebody’s carrying Pig, somebody’s carrying Hedwig, somebody’s carrying Crookshanks, and it’s all very meticulously detailed. So I did notice that about the writing in this chapter, that it seems to be very strategic, although the stakes are ultimately very low.

Micah: Let’s talk about the train, then.

Eric: Let’s.

Micah: So the trio finally get on board, and Ron and Hermione are like, [in a high voice] “Meh, sorry, Harry, we’ve got to go be prefects.”

Eric: [laughs] You did a perfect Jim Dale doing Hermione right there. “Harreee, Harreee.”

Micah: Yeah, and poor Harry; he’s never traveled without Ron on the Hogwarts Express. Time for some separation anxiety, like he hasn’t had a go with that at all in this book.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You really do feel bad for Harry here because he’s watching his friends advance in their lives. They’ve got this cool official thing going on, and he’s left behind. And it reminded me of how social media can give us this type of anxiety where you see people excelling in their careers or doing something really cool in their life, and you’re just like, “Oh, here I am, just double tapping this photo on my couch because I have nothing better to do with my life.” And Ron and Hermione have something, like I said, official to do. Harry has never gotten a cool promotion like this before. Everything he has done is cool, but it’s because Voldemort is out to kill him. [laughs] He didn’t get promoted in some way because he’s really talented, whereas Ron and Hermione are getting this type of promotion, so I can see why Harry feels bad and feels left behind, and he might be worried that he won’t excel later in life like Ron and Hermione might.

Eric: That’s a good question. I’m trying to think… I guess I see being made Seeker a promotion, but it happened so long ago. It was based on his talent, and he was the youngest one in a century, but it’s so long ago that he doesn’t see it as being like, “I’m special.” It’s easy to gloss over, I think, your own prestige and your own accomplishments when being confronted with the successes of others, and I think you’re right to point out, Andrew, the end of the last chapter, where he’s like, “Everything’s fine with me and Ron and Hermione,” but still on the inside, it’s like a little kick to the gut every time he sees them go off, and the fact that he’s alone and is mourning it all over again.

Andrew: A lot of people want more, right? They always want more, and the getting promoted to Seeker is a lifetime ago, like you said, so…

Laura: I actually don’t think that Harry wants to be a prefect; I think he just feels left out. Because he even notes when Ron and Hermione get their letters that he’d never really thought about it before. I think he just feels left out because his two best friends are getting this prestige, and it doesn’t really quite matter what it is, it’s just that they’re getting something that he isn’t. And Harry is young; he’s 15, and he’s spent a lot of his life feeling isolated, from living with the Dursleys, who treated him like garbage, to transitioning into the wizarding world where he’s all of a sudden this very public celebrity who doesn’t quite get the amount of privacy he might like. So he’s lived two very different sides of that spectrum, and now the people he’s closest with have this experience handed to them that kind of separates them from him.

Vanessa: And he knows how nice the prefects’ bathroom is.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: That’s true.

Vanessa: And oh my God, what’s better than a nice bathroom?

Eric: Not a lot.

Laura: I’m not going to lie, I remember reading that chapter, and I was like, “I want to use this bath.”

Vanessa: Tooootally.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That could be in our forthcoming Harry Potter Airbnb, Laura. A really nice bathroom for a prefect.

Laura: That’d be amazing, but yeah, it has to have a bathtub that’s deep enough to swim in.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: That’s important.

Andrew: That sounds great. And hold a golden egg under.

Vanessa: I think J.K. Rowling straight up stole that idea from Pee Wee Herman, though.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Vanessa: Pee Wee Herman had a bathtub big enough to swim in and it looked really fun.

Eric: Oh, man.

Vanessa: None of you were old enough for the ’80s? No? Okay.

Andrew: I mean, I watched him a little bit.

Micah: Yeah.

Vanessa: So good.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I watched Pee Wee’s Playhouse when I was very little.

Andrew: Yes, that one.

Vanessa: Well, in one of the movies – I don’t remember which one – he has a bathtub big enough to swim in.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That’s great.

Micah: Awesome. That’s so awesome. This will be in JKR’s memoirs, that she was inspired by Pee Wee Herman for the prefects’ bathroom.

Laura: Yeah, hopefully just on that one thing, though.

[Everyone laughs]

Vanessa: Aww.

Andrew: “I got the idea of Horcruxes from Pee Wee Herman.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The only other thing that I would add here is I think Harry primarily feels the way he does, though, just because he’s being separated from Ron and Hermione. He really hasn’t gotten a chance to spend a whole lot of time with them, and this is customary; it’s something that happens every year. They get to ride the train to school together and talk and hang out. And while I do think there is something to be said for the fact that they’re prefects, I do also think it’s just a matter, “Hey, I’m not going to get the opportunity to spend a couple hours with my friends before I get to school,” and it’s just disrupting what has been a normal thing for him, and quite honestly, I mean, he’s faced a lot of that so far in this book, and it’s just another example of him being isolated.

Andrew: And Laura, I agree with you about it’s not about Harry wanting to become a prefect. To me, it’s about Ron and Hermione are moving forward in their lives. They’re moving on. They’re advancing. And how is Harry advancing? He’s just… he’s not.

Eric: The interesting thing is that there’s always… I love these chapters where they’re going to Hogwarts just because it’s such an event, right? So in many cases they’re on the train and J.K. Rowling is having to write different occurrences. It’s kind of like how she has to make each Quidditch match a little bit different; each Hogwarts Express train ride to Hogwarts is different for the company that Harry keeps, the circumstances that happen, and it’s different every year. And this is the year where Harry, of course, meets Luna, but he is just having to bear more of it than usual alone, and that just further exemplifies, I think, the theme of this book of Harry being singled out for who he is, or singled out just in general. And it’s very fitting that he is alone for part of this journey, or at least in his head for it, because he spends the whole book kind of in his head, and he’s not really able to connect to Ron and Hermione like he normally would, in general, but then also on the train, because they’re away.

Laura: Yeah, and also, the Hogwarts Express is a place where the trio generally tend to do a lot of conversing and plotting and just decompressing about what to expect in the coming year, and we see this later on in the series where there’s a lot of weirdness happening on, like with Draco, and they spend a lot of time shut in their cabin talking about how they’re going to deal with this. So now, not only is Harry separated, but the people that he really wants to talk to about “How am I going to deal with this?” aren’t there.

Andrew: Take some extra rides on the train during the school year. I mean, what is that train doing in between the new terms anyway?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Keep the trolley lady employed.

Vanessa: Yeah, seasonal employment is a blight.

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: Maybe she has her own podcast to kill the time in between terms.

Eric: It’s called “Claws.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I don’t know why.

Micah: Harry, though, gets a lot of interesting looks as he’s weaving his way through the different cars to try and find a place to sit, and let’s face it, it’s not year one anymore, where he should be getting stares from people. So I think, again, this is another moment for him where he continues to feel that level of isolation, because these people are looking at him because of what happened at the end of last term, because of what news is being spread about him and Dumbledore, and that’s got to just add to his level of feeling really shitty. He can’t even duck into a compartment to just get away from everything. And on top of that, the one he ends up being in is one – at least, it seems right now – he’d rather not be in, and he just can’t escape. I think that’s the other thing; it’s isolation, but then it’s not being able to escape from a situation that you feel really anxious or nervous about being in.

Eric: All this bad press that the Daily Prophet is spewing on him, he’s basically a pariah. He’s basically an outcast. All this bad press… people really have now built up in their heads a really just negative connotation against him. It always brings me down realizing that the press has done this to a person who is ultimately innocent as well.

Micah: A 15-year-old. Let’s keep that in the back of our minds.

Eric: Yeah, exactly. And really, the only solace in that is that he finds a train compartment with another outcast. He actually ends up being exactly where he needs to be; he just doesn’t know it at the time or really appreciate it.

Micah: Right. So let’s talk about Luna: She is introduced to us as having “straggly, waist-length, dirty blonde hair, very pale eyebrows, and protuberant eyes that gave her a permanently surprised look.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She had “stuck her wand behind her ear for safekeeping,” had “chosen to wear a necklace of butterbeer caps,” and was “reading a magazine upside down… She did not seem to blink as much as normal humans.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And she is introduced to us by Ginny initially, before they even go into the compartment, as “Loony Lovegood,” and good old Neville doesn’t even want to sit with her.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: What does Neville have to be choosy about, honestly? [laughs]

Micah: Well, exactly. So I know we’re going to get into this, but it’s almost comical, in a way ironic, I guess, that this is how our outcasts, right – our group that we’ve been with for five books – is reacting to another outcast, who I would say, though, definitely feels more comfortable in her own skin than some of these other people do.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just… one marginalized group is not going to get along intimately with another marginalized group or person just because they’re both marginalized. It’s not how it works. People are different. Everybody’s different. And the fact that Neville doesn’t want to sit with Luna is telling, but also I’m glad that obviously – with knowing the end of the book or knowing how the series progresses – they obviously rely on each other over time and over the course of this book. So that feels a little bit better about his snuffing of her right now, but it’s kind of rough. And honestly, the movie adaptation… the casting of Evanna Lynch was I think… I know we intended to bring it up at some point, but I think it was a very, very good decision to be made. But honestly, it kind of softens some of these features that J.K. Rowling is writing about. Protuberant eyes, and when Harry sits down in the train compartment, she is really staring at him – really, really, really, really staring at him – and making him very uncomfortable. And book Luna is kind of just cranked up to 1,000 whatever the film adaptation is.

Andrew: Yeah, that wild laughter at Ron’s joke was very surprising and something I had forgotten about, because that’s not in the movie. It’s just like, “Whoa. What is up with this girl?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But actually, yeah, just speaking of Evanna, maybe now we can just take that little aside. I just want to point out some people might not know she got that role because she is a huge Harry Potter fan, just like us, and she would visit MuggleNet.com all the time, and we had posted about the open casting call for Luna Lovegood, and she had responded to that open casting call, and that’s how she got the role. [laughs] So she is a true Harry Potter fan, and she brought that to set. And she made her own jewelry for Luna in the movie; I believe it was her earrings, right?

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: I mean, she was just so perfect for that role. It’s stunning how good she was. Yeah, there’s some differences from the book, but I think she just brought it perfectly to the screen.

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: Agreed.

Micah: Yeah, and…

Vanessa: That’s adorable.

Andrew: Right?

Eric: Yeah, apparently she would on set go over to the other actors and talk to them about MuggleNet. It was pretty funny.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Like, “Hey, Emma, did you see this top ten list of the…?” [laughs] Weird stuff like that.

Andrew: And Emma was like, “Uh, what?” [laughs]

Eric: [imitating Evanna Lynch] “On MuggleNet, on the fan thing.”

Andrew: “Listen, Luna – listen, Evanna, I’m a fan, but that kind of fan.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Well, and also, I think worth mentioning that she listened to this podcast back in the day as well, and I think the first time we did a live show with her, she wore her own MuggleCast T-shirt that she had purchased.

Andrew: Oh, she did, yeah.

Micah: And she’s been on the show several times since, but just very, very cool story.

Eric: She’s one of the good eggs, that’s for sure.

Andrew: Right. And because she got into the… she wasn’t an actress before Harry Potter. I was there on the Order of the Phoenix set visit, and she was so, so nervous. The publicist was sitting right next to her when we were interviewing her, and she was just… she couldn’t put words together, because that was one of the first times she was in front of press and it was… and you look at her now; she’s just completely transformed, and has her own podcast, by the way, the Chick Peeps. It’s a vegan podcast.

Vanessa: I know. I love her vegan activism.

Andrew: Yeah. Anyway, so Luna Lovegood is crazy.

[Everyone laughs]

Vanessa: It’s so… I mean, she’s such a gift to enter this world, and to the trio and Ginny and Neville’s life. And I loved the point that not all outcasts are the same, and not all marginalized people should have to get along, right? But there is also something beautiful about the fact that because they are all marginalized, they are able to join together in a way and really understand one another. And I mean, this could be because I’m currently reading Book 6, but I’m just so moved by the fact that Harry invites Luna to the Slug Club really because she is the person who he most wants to spend time with at the Slug Club party. And I just think that she… it’s Casper’s theory that she’s the priestess of the group, that she is taking care of everybody. She certainly takes care of Mr. Ollivander at Malfoy Manor, and this is just a moment of… I think it’s a great moment to remind us all that you don’t necessarily have the right first impression of somebody, and somebody can seem really off to you, but they might end up being just the greatest gift of your life.

Eric: I love that, yeah. People can be really, really good for you, and it won’t look that way at first.

Vanessa: Right.

Eric: Or it’ll look just different, or you won’t… we don’t know what to expect, honestly. People are biased. First impressions are real kickers and things, and you’ve got to kind of overcome them. But I love the idea that… viewing Luna’s entry into this world, as you said, Vanessa, but in this chapter. But in this book, you get such a dark book that’s… I don’t want to say morbid, but very brooding, very bleak, and then you have somebody like Luna, who is perfectly at peace with preposterous theories, and she’s just a perfect antidote to some of the darker parts of this book.

Vanessa: And she exposes… so I think that the way that engaging with people who we don’t usually engage with always exposes our own prejudices, she exposes Hermione, right? Hermione is like, “Oh, that magazine is trash.”

[Eric laughs]

Vanessa: And she’s like, “Actually, my dad is the editor,” right? And we don’t realize the ways in which we are racist, or any number of ways that we are prejudiced, until we find ourselves in a totally foreign group and we’re like, “Oh, I suddenly realize that this thing that I say all the time is really uncomfortable to say when x person is in the room,” and I feel like Luna therefore makes everybody better through her difference.

Eric: Yes, yes.

Micah: She does the same thing to Ron, too, in a little bit of a different way, but just kind of… Ron is not very self-aware, I think, in terms of how he treated Padma at the Yule Ball, and Luna just speaks the truth and has no filter about it whatsoever. And I think that kind of contrasts Hermione’s moment, right? Because everybody kind of laughs – Ginny is laughing, or they’re trying to contain their laughter – versus when she goes back at Hermione, it’s kind of a very serious moment. So she’s able to do both, but it’s all through speaking the truth about things. So she’s also a extremely popular character, right? And comes along in the fifth book. I think that says something, too, that you’re being introduced past the middle of the series, yet she is such a fan favorite amongst readers.

Eric: Yeah, and I love that she is in Ginny’s year, right? She could just be a really precocious 11-year-old, like maybe Harry and his friends… the compartments on the train… which, for some reason, they still haven’t figured out how to organize people on the train; they’re always having to search for a compartment or something. There’s nothing assigned. If they had to accidentally sit with first years and you could introduce Luna that way; J.K. Rowling instead is like, “Here’s a character that’s been here at Hogwarts all these years. She’s in Ginny’s year.” So there’s all this untold story potential that you could plumb because Luna is Ginny’s age. She’s all their ages. She’s just a year younger than Harry, Ron, and Hermione. So I don’t know, it’s just brilliant introducing a character, not only five books into seven, to your point, Micah, but one that has retconningly been there the whole time; we just didn’t know about her because she’s in Ravenclaw, and we don’t really focus on the non-Gryffindor Houses.

Micah: And I’d have to look back, but was she ever mentioned? Because J.K. Rowling has a tendency to name drop characters one time in other books before they end up playing a larger role in future books. I think Cho Chang is a perfect example of that; she gets a mention or a couple mentions because of the Quidditch match in Prisoner of Azkaban, and then she ends up obviously playing a larger role in Goblet of Fire. So that’s just one that comes to mind. The other thing about this, though, with Ginny, is that I wanted to just explore is there more of this inner-House bonding that goes on in Ginny’s year? Because she seems to just… I wouldn’t say she’s friends with Luna, but it was interesting to me that she was connecting with a fellow fourth year who was in a different House, right? A lot of what we see with the trio is just limited to Gryffindor.

Eric: Yeah, very much so. I mean, they have classes that are dual House classes. You would think that Harry, Ron, and Hermione would extend friendship to Herbology with the Hufflepuffs, that they would have a couple of Hufflepuff friends, but it just… it’s kind of a minor failure of the books that because Harry, Ron, and Hermione have to keep to themselves due to the plot, that there’s no reaching across the House divide, and that all of their friends are in Gryffindor. The alternative is… I mean, Dumbledore’s Army really does later in this book, and it really seems to be pretty much the only thing that brings more than one House together, and even then, they’re uniting under a common foe.

Micah: Sure.

Laura: I just get the sense that Ginny is popular.

Vanessa: Oh, for sure.

Laura: And yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. She’s just more predisposed to know more people because she’s just the cool Weasley.

Eric: [laughs] That’s interesting.

Vanessa: She’s also… I mean, she’s not just cool, she’s deeply, deeply kind. And I think that she also has a predisposition to stand up to bullies, and Luna is someone who is constantly bullied, and so I think it is entirely possible that she knows who Luna is because she has defended Luna. But I also just think that this is a failure of Hogwarts. The House system is so poorly done, and I am very anti-House as a pedagogical tool. I think it would be fine if it was arbitrarily assigned, but I think that assigning children at 11 based on their characteristic traits is a really pernicious thing, and there doesn’t seem to be any inter-House bonding at all.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a good point.

Vanessa: And they’re set up to compete against each other for points even in class when they have classes together, so the only times we see them interacting is this competition, and so there’s just no incentive to get to know people from other classes. So I don’t… as much as it is the trio and the plot that keeps them isolated, it’s also the institution of Hogwarts that keeps them isolated.

Eric: That’s a really good point, yeah.

Micah: Totally. It’s also a security nightmare, according to Andrew.

[Eric laugh]

Andrew: I was going to… I was trying to figure out a way to work that in. Yeah, I mean…

Micah: Do you believe that, Vanessa? Is Hogwarts a security nightmare?

Vanessa: I think Hogwarts is the weirdest frickin’ school… ever.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That’s so Dumbledore.

Vanessa: It is just… yeah, Dumbledore should definitely not be the Head of the school. There should be someone with a Master’s in Education somewhere.

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: The pedagogy is so deeply flawed. Security nightmare, yes, but also, why isn’t there a guidance counselor? It is just a strange, strange place.

Andrew: Yeah, and I like your point about no inner-House relationship-building going on. That’s a great observation. Everybody’s very split. And then, like you said, competing against each other too. And by the way, to get back to one of your questions from a few minutes ago, Micah: David, who’s listening live on Patreon right now, he says the Lovegoods got a name drop in Goblet of Fire. They’re the Weasleys’ neighbors, on their way…

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Oh, that’s right.

Vanessa: That’s right! When Cedric… when they’re going… that’s where I am with my kids right now. We just read that chapter, so I should have known.

Andrew: Yeah, it was in the Portkey scene, right?

Vanessa: Yep, exactly. In the Portkey scene.

Andrew: There you go.

Micah: Very good.

Andrew: No Luna, but the Lovegoods. So she did drop half a seed there.

Vanessa: Yeah, the Lovegoods are the only other ones in the neighborhood.

Micah: Well, thanks, David. And then I just did want to follow up on a point that Vanessa, you made: Ginny does speak up for Neville, talking about standing up for people, because Neville introduces himself after Harry is recognized, of course, and he introduces himself as nobody, and Ginny says, “You’re not nobody.” And I thought that was a very powerful moment too, because – and this ties into, Eric, something you were talking about with Dumbledore’s Army – this is the beginning. This is the formation of Dumbledore’s Army happening, whether they realize it or not, within this compartment. Yes, there’s a lot of Gryffindors, but you also are starting to bring in another House in Ravenclaw with Luna, and I think it’s important that all these characters are bonding, whether they realize it or not.

Eric: Yeah. I think that, yeah, definitely, this is a crucial… Luna is a critical ingredient, and what happens on the train is definitely a gathering of the ingredients. The only thing you need, again, is that common enemy in Umbridge, who is not right now, insanely, the inciting sort of action, inciting the action of creation of Dumbledore’s Army. But these people together, it’s really special. They just don’t know how special it’s all going to be, which is really cool.

Laura: And this moment is also really interesting because Neville, I don’t think he knows this at this point, but he was very close to not being nobody.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I mean, the only thing that makes that so is that Voldemort chose Harry. It’s very much like the Jesus Christ and the John the Baptist syndrome, where either one of them could have been the Messiah, and it just so happens it was Jesus, so nobody ever thinks about John.

Andrew: [laughs] “Well, Luna, I was almost a somebody, but that guy missing a nose decided Harry is the Chosen One.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It is a funny joke, though, considering the prophecy is this book and we find out about Neville later in this book, that he should introduce himself as nobody. It’s very clever. But then again, Harry on the Knight Bus calls himself Neville Longbottom because in his estimation, in year three, Neville is a nobody. Nobody will know his name.

Laura: Aw, that’s so sad.

Eric: Yeah. But did you guys remember…? How old were you all when this book came out? Did you read this book when it first came out? Was everybody reading Book 5?

Laura: Yeah, I was like, 13?

Eric: Okay. I was 15, and I remember reading this chapter, particularly this line. So a bunch of people walk by – it’s kind of a rotating compartment when they’re all in the train together – and Cho comes in, and there’s this line in the book that says, “He would have liked Cho to discover him sitting with a very cool group of people laughing their heads off at a joke Harry just told; he would not have chosen to be sitting with Neville and Loony Lovegood, clutching a toad and dripping in Stinksap.” And yeah, the Stinksap thing is disgusting, and it’s totally very valid. But I remember being 15, and this line struck me as the ugliest one yet for Harry’s mental state, because he doesn’t want to be hanging with Neville and Luna. And sure, he doesn’t know Luna, but Neville is his friend; Neville has only ever been nice to Harry, and he feels just this revulsion about where he’s at and what he’s doing, and I just thought… because I think at the time, at 15, I was also very concerned about being included in friends’ things and fitting in and finding a group, that it really just resonated with me that Harry rejected his present company in such a strong way, and now it doesn’t bother me at all, really.

Andrew: Yeah, that mattered a lot, and then you get into college, and none of that really matters at all.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah.

Andrew: But I was also wondering, who are the cool kids in Harry’s mind? Is it Ron and Hermione? Because they’re not exactly considered cool, but I think if Ron and Hermione were there, he’d be like, “Oh yeah, check me out, Cho. I’m with Ron and Hermione.”

[Eric laughs]

Vanessa: But don’t you think that moments like that are… it’s like an ecosystem. I think that if he wasn’t covered in Stinksap, it wouldn’t bother him, or if the person that he doesn’t really know but is called Loony Lovegood was there. If he was just caught with Ginny and Neville, holding a toad, he’d be like, “Hey, what’s up?”

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: But you just start making a list of all the things that make you look bad, and then you become the least gracious version of yourself. And by you, I mean me. I can just imagine being caught in my Crocs and socks…

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: … by someone who I think is awesome and cool, and being like, “Yeah, I’m rocking my Crocs and socks,” if I’m out walking my dog, or feeling good about myself, but if I’ve just gotten dog poop accidentally on me, suddenly the Crocs and socks is like, “Oh my God, I have dog poop and Crocs and socks.” You need… you know what I mean?

Eric: Yeah, 100%.

Vanessa: I feel like it’s the whole ecosystem of the situation that he’s like, “Jesus.” I wonder if he wasn’t covered in Stinksap if he’d be like, “Yeah, look how nice I am. I’m hanging out with Luna Lovegood.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s a really good point.

Andrew: I think to Cho, that would actually be admirable, that he’s hanging out with Neville and Luna.

Vanessa: Right, I agree. And I just think the Stinksap makes everything feel awful.

Eric: Yeah, and smell awful.

Micah: What do you think Cho’s opinion of Luna is? They’re in the same House.

Vanessa: Right, and they’re only a year apart.

Andrew: So that must help, being in the same House.

Micah: Well, it depends. Does Cho think of her as Loony Lovegood, or as just the special person?

Eric: Actually, I’d love to talk about that, because Cho… I think we have to pin what kind of a Ravenclaw Cho is on her. Because whether she’s the studious type that would make fun of Loony for being different, or whether she’s more the adventurous, curious Ravenclaw side, which would be more aligned with Luna’s own vision. Because I think that it’s like a Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer situation with Luna, where the other reindeer are always making fun of her, stealing her shoes – I think makes it into the movie – all that weird stuff. But then there are other Ravenclaws, I think, who would appreciate her beating to her own drum, and which is Cho? Cho is kind of a jock, just like Harry. She’s an athlete. So would she make fun of Luna? Would she think that Luna is weird? Or would she just be more, I don’t know, accepting?

Andrew: [singing] “Loony, the Lovegood reindeer… Ravenclaw.”

Eric: Oh, God. [laughs] We just got told off for our singing.

Laura: Andrew, we just…

Eric: We just got a negative…

Laura: Yeah, I was going to say.

Andrew: Guys, I’m powering through and ignoring that review about my singing 12 years ago, to continue on.

Vanessa: Yeah, ignore that. That’s hateful. Your singing is beautiful.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, thank you! Oh my gosh, Vanessa. To hear that from you, that means a lot.

Vanessa: It is sincere.

Andrew: Thank you. Can you please write a review on iTunes about us and my great singing?

[Everyone laughs]

Vanessa: I’m going to do it right now, and you think I’m kidding.

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: Amazing joy. I think that Cho probably thinks that Luna is weird and awesome. I think she’s like, “I don’t want to spend my time with you because you’re a lot,” and what we love about Luna’s truth-telling, I think would be exhausting to be around in real life all the time. I respect the hell out of it, but I’m just taciturn enough that I’m like, “We don’t need to say all the things all the time.” I think it is the right strategy to walk through the world; I just think I would find it difficult to be around. But Cho is an athlete; she’s an athlete who’s willing to sacrifice winning to warn Harry about Dementors, and she… I love Cho, I think she’s perfect, so I think she’s nice to Luna.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Vanessa: She stays loyal to Marietta, right? We know that Cho is willing to take an unpopular stance in order to be protective of people.

Eric: That’s a good point. That’s a really good point.

Vanessa: I love Cho. She’s so beautiful and wonderful.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I just think it was an instance where you’re getting caught in a bad situation with your crush staring right at you, right? And I think there’s something to be said for the fact, too, that Harry is a teenager, so it’s not uncommon for him to think this way. Hindsight is always 20/20, and especially as adults, when we come back and read these books, we come at it with a different lens. But I think the likelihood is most of us probably would have acted in a similar way, or at least thought in a similar way, as Harry in that particular situation; it’s not an uncommon thought to have. But I do agree, it’s not exactly like he’s the cool kid at this moment either, so to have that thought about Luna, it’s tough. It is.

Eric: It’s definitely very lifelike, to your point. We all have these thoughts. We all have absolutely had that experience of, “Oh, I’m embarrassed about the company I’m keeping right now, even though they’re my friends.” So good on J.K. Rowling for writing this into a book, into a scene in a book, because it is very true to life.

Andrew: And at least for me growing up, it was mostly about the fact that people I hung out with… they definitely weren’t the cool kids, but it was partly because they just didn’t take care of themselves. They may have smelled or wore really baggy clothing or just didn’t do anything with their hair.

Eric: It’s true.

Andrew: I had that cool wave going on, but nobody else really cared about themselves.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: So that’s why I would be embarrassed.

Laura: Andrew, I don’t appreciate that.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: He’s not talking about you, Laura. Wink wink.

Andrew: Or am I?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Or are you, yeah.

Andrew: No, but I mean, that is definitely… the reason I bring that up is that is really not exactly the issue Harry has with Neville and Luna, I don’t think. It’s just because of their attitudes and their mannerisms.

Micah: He’s also not having the best start of term, right? Let’s just think about what he’s gone through in the last several weeks. So this just adds to it; it’s just compounding the situation for him. But I do think it says something that this character has only been introduced for several pages in this book, and yet all of us seem to feel such a strong tie in terms of standing up and defending her. So one other piece of information that we do learn about when Ron and Hermione come back to the compartment is who the other prefects are that we would know from Harry’s year, and was this something that we remember that we were looking forward to? Once we knew that Ron and Hermione had been deemed Gryffindor prefects, that we were like, “Okay, well…” Or were we really only concerned about Slytherin and didn’t give a shit about Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, pretty much.

Andrew: Ouch.

Eric: We just don’t know that many people. These are names we’ve heard before, but maybe once or twice. And Padma is a very generous reference because obviously with having gone to the Yule Ball the year before, we know her a little bit better. But yeah, no, it’s…

Micah: That’s the only reason she was made a prefect? Was so that…?

Eric: Audience recognition.

Andrew: We would recognize her?

Micah: No, no, Luna could throw shade at Ron.

Andrew: Oh.

Micah: That’s the whole reason why J.K. Rowling made her a prefect.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, maybe. That would be great if that were the case.

Vanessa: No, I also think it’s to show that Ron and Harry messed up with awesome chicks, right?

Micah: Yeah, yeah. I agree with that.

Vanessa: They completely objectified these women. They invited them because they were the least ugly women that they could think of to invite, and it’s like, hey, actually, there’s complete interiority and awesomeness to these people that you treated like crap. And I have not forgiven Ron and Harry for that.

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: Nor have they issued an apology.

Eric: It’s such an unexpected dose of Luna medicine, when she confronts Ron right here and there about Padma. But yeah, I think it’s just audience name recognition, honestly. Ernie Macmillan, at least he’s not the other Hufflepuff that we know who’s a real jerk to Harry, Zacharias Smith. Hate that guy. Glad he comes up later. But yeah, that’s it. We don’t know that many – to our point, a recurring theme of lack of House knowledge, lack of inter-House relations – we just don’t know that many other people. So I don’t know who the alternative to these particular prefects would be unless J.K. Rowling were going to mention names for the very first time, which is, as we said with the Lovegoods, very unusual that she would do that. They kind of all had to be people we already knew.

Andrew: And one big question is why Draco was made a prefect, and we will discuss that in bonus MuggleCast this week, available on Patreon. We’re going to review some interesting theories and debate if Dumbledore should have stepped in. It was probably Snape’s decision, but why did Dumbledore not step in? So we’ll talk about all that.

Eric: It’s going to be great.

Micah: So one other piece that I thought was important to talk about in this chapter before we wrap things up was the Quibbler. Luna is reading it, and we talked about the comment that Hermione made about it not really being a quality source of information, but Harry does recognize it as the paper that Kingsley mentioned in Arthur’s office, saying there was a discussion about how Sirius would really love one of the stories that was written about him. Apparently, Sirius is innocent of the crimes against all those Muggles and Peter Pettigrew because he’s actually the lead singer of a band called The Hobgoblins. His name is Stubby Boardman, and he was out canoodling one night with the woman who’s giving the account of this story to Xenophilius Lovegood.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oooh!

Micah: And yeah, so Sirius…

Andrew: Rock and roll star? What kind of music do the Hobgoblins play? It sounds like a punk rock type of band.

Eric: Apparently, it’s the kind of band that attracts an audience that has turnips to throw at them. Unfortunately, I think there was probably a pretty bad concert that was not well-received by the audience, because Stubby Boardman retired after being hit in the ear with a turnip from the audience, so…

Andrew: What a snowflake.

[Micah laughs]

Vanessa: If you’d had a turnip thrown at you at a live show, would you be like, “I’m going to keep this going”?

Andrew: Uh, yeah, that’s rock and roll. That’s what you gotta do.

[Micah and Vanessa laugh]

Andrew: People throw stuff up on the stage.

Laura: Yeah, turnips are totally rock and roll.

Eric: I would be heavily discouraged.

Micah: Have security throw out the person and keep going.

Andrew: Right. You call that person out, somebody captures it on video, you go viral, you become huge.

Eric: I just think it would be… I think there is a little joke about a diva, being like, “Stubby Boardman is such a diva.” But then also, he’s sharing romantic candlelit dinners with Doris Purkiss the night he was convicted of all those murders, so I don’t know. I love the alternative fact thing that the Quibbler has going because it’s, again, an antidote to the outrageous, deliberate lies, let’s say – the more malicious lies – that the Daily Prophet is printing.

Micah: Very true. And there’s another one in there that’s worth mentioning about the Minister, Cornelius Fudge, and that in fact, his nickname, which kind of sounds like his wrestling name, is Cornelius ‘Goblin-Crusher’ Fudge.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And this one… I’ll be honest with you, I could see some truth to this, not necessarily that he crushes goblins, but what is the real relationship that he has with the goblin community? Especially knowing how things are trending now with the Ministry.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: Yeah, definitely not a good one.

Micah: Yeah, there could be a little bit of truth to this story. Obviously it’s embellished quite a bit, but I think that’s sort of the allure of a paper like the Quibbler is that on the surface, the story seems just completely out there, but there could be some legitimacy buried beneath all the wackiness.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, the Quibbler is such an enigma to me. What are we supposed to make of it? Are we supposed to be taking this as a quasi-serious publication?

Laura: No.

Andrew: Why does it get to skirt down the middle? I just kind of hate that it’s all over the place.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah. I think that it’s J.K. Rowling showing a gray area there. It’s just that this paper is so bold and Xenophilius is so brave for publishing something like this. He is a crackpot. He is absolutely not… he does not seem to have journalistic integrity, which is hugely problematic, right? This kind of publication has no place in a world where facts matter.

Micah: Well, does the Daily Prophet at this point have journalistic integrity and do facts matter to them?

Eric: Right.

Micah: So I think that’s the whole point of them introducing a paper like the Quibbler, is that you’re looking at it, you’re like, “Yeah, it’s all a bunch of rubbish,” but at the same time, the mainstream newspaper is printing things that are not true about Harry, so…

Andrew: But the trick with the Prophet is that it was established as a credible news source, so a lot of readers probably still believe everything in there.

Eric: Right. Except they are able to swing it around, though, when they release Harry’s interview in the Quibbler. The Quibbler becomes a wonderful tool… or was it Rita Skeeter publishes for the Quibbler?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Honestly. So they’re able to take something like the Quibbler, because it’s willing to print less than popular opinions, and they’re able to make it… give it an air of legitimacy. Harry and his friends make it more honest, I think.

Vanessa: I also think in times of rising fascism, papers like the Quibbler do begin to matter more, right? Because to your point, the Daily Prophet I think probably was once a credible newspaper, but has become, in this rise of terror time, less credible because of the Ministry is less credible, and so I think that having… I mean, it just shows the danger of monopoly, right? There should be more than one paper so that the Quibbler isn’t the only antidote.

Andrew: Yeah. But just like, you can’t take this paper, the Quibbler, seriously when every article includes this twisty line, “BUT DOES HE?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It just automatically disqualifies it as a legitimate news source. It’s corny.

Micah: Yeah, it’s got a tabloid feel to it, for sure.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s just how to put it. It’s a tabloid. You don’t know what’s real and what’s not. You look at these tabloids at the food store, and maybe some of that stuff is real, [laughs] but most of it probably isn’t.

Vanessa: Isn’t it more like a blog? It’s like a single writer paper.

Andrew: That’s true, yeah.

Vanessa: So I mean, Rita Skeeter will later be an exception to that, but I really think of it as just Xenophilius’s private blog.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Before we make our way to Hogsmeade, Harry gets one more visitor that shows up at the compartment that they’re in, and it’s Draco.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: And summarize it to say that they go back and forth. Draco has been named prefect. He threatens Harry to keep in line. Harry is telling him, “Shut up.” Hermione is telling him, “Shut up.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But he does tell Harry, quote, that he will be “dogging” his footsteps at school.

[Eric sighs]

Micah: So going back to our discussion earlier on about Sirius, probably not the best idea for him to have come to King’s Cross Station.

Andrew: Nope.

Eric: It’s just a real shame, because I know that it came out of a place of inner turmoil and desperation that Sirius really wanted to see his godson off, but it was not, in the end, a smart move. And God, what a shock to the system that Draco knows Sirius’s secret? Those characters never interacted, but thanks to Peter Pettigrew, everyone on the dark side knows the secret now.

Andrew: And knows Harry and Sirius’s close relationship right now, which comes into play later, so just a mess.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Suffice it to say that so far, the trip to school has not been a good one for Harry with everything that we’ve discussed. [laughs] And it only gets better once he gets to Hogsmeade, because he doesn’t hear that familiar voice that he’s used to hearing calling out “First years,” and instead, it’s Professor Grubbly-Plank that’s doing it. And this goes back, actually, if you remember I had brought up a couple episodes ago how Harry, once he was let off at his trial and he gets back to Grimmauld Place, there’s this moment where he’s like, “Yeah, I’m going to get to go down to Hagrid’s hut and do all these different…” This is the first example of something that he was really excited to be doing once he was back at school being taken away from him, because Hagrid is not there.

Eric: Good point.

Micah: And the chapter wraps up with another moment of isolation for Harry, because for the first time, he’s able to see what is pulling these carriages that are going to take them up to the school, and we’re not actually even told what they are at this point; we just get a description of them. But Luna walks past Harry and assures him that he’s just as sane as her…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Great!

Micah: … and that she can see them as well, so that makes Harry feel really good about himself. And yeah, that’s where the chapter wraps up. Of course, later on we learn that they are Thestrals, and they can only be seen by those who have seen death. And that brings some clarity to the situation, but it’s a little weird when Ron is staring straight into its face and can’t see it.

Andrew: [imitating Luna] “They’re called Thestrals.”

Eric: There had to have been some student who was trying to board the carriage and was just like, “Oh, there’s a huge open space here; I’m going to walk in front of the carriage,” and then got thwapped by walking directly…

Andrew: Can they feel them, I wonder?

Eric: It would be really weird if they couldn’t.

Andrew: Right, that wouldn’t make sense.

Eric: Right, because yeah, I know people can’t see them, but… oh, the people who can’t see them fly them at the end of the book, don’t they? At least one or two kids?

Laura: Yes.

Eric: Okay, so yeah, you can touch them. You could walk right into them. That’s a security nightmare! [laughs] Or that’s an injury… that’s an insurance nightmare, isn’t it? To have kids…

Micah: Just add it to the list at this point.

Eric: Yeah, okay. Yeah, fine.

[Andrew laughs]

Vanessa: Oh my God, I would read so much about the Hogwarts insurance policy.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’d be great.

Vanessa: I have never thought about how to insure Hogwarts, and I’m like, oh, I want to know everything about the Hogwarts insurance policy.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, falling off the end of a rotating staircase that moves unexpectedly? I mean, the list is miles long.

Vanessa: Yeah, but then also you have to think about how amazing Madame Pomfrey is, so I think that she makes the risk much lower, in which case she should be asking for a really high salary because she saves them a lot of money on her insurance policy.

Eric: You know, for a chapter that opens with Ginny falling down two flights of stairs and ending up mostly okay, I’m actually glad we ended this on insurance stock. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, when I need a good policy, I go with Allstate. You’re in good hands at Hogwarts with Allstate.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: But Luna says to Harry that she could see them ever since she first came to Hogwarts, which is, of course – we know this from the additional writing from J.K. Rowling – it’s because of her mother’s death. Luna has witnessed the death of Pandora, former Quizzitch answer.

Andrew: Okay, so that is the chapter. The Umbridge suck count remains unchanged at seven. Before we get to connecting the threads, it’s time for a word from our second sponsor this week.

[Ad break]

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Connecting the Threads

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Andrew: Laura, what are some threads between this book and others?

Laura: Yeah, so this was a really fun one. With Connecting the Threads, Vanessa, we like to look back at the books as though Goblet of Fire is sort of the centerpiece, so then Books 1 and 7, 2 and 6, and 3 and 5 all correspond to each other. And there was some really cool stuff between this chapter of Order of the Phoenix and Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban, where the trio are traveling back to Hogwarts on the Hogwarts Express. So the first one is who the trio meet in both of these cases. In Prisoner of Azkaban, they meet Lupin on the Hogwarts Express when they can’t find an empty compartment, and they just find one with this disheveled-looking man sleeping in the compartment. What’s funny about this to me is that they express a little bit of apprehension about Lupin, but it’s not nearly to the level of what they express about Luna in Order of the Phoenix, which makes me think that there’s maybe some unconscious bias at play. But I also really like the moon imagery that comes into play here. So of course, we have Lupin, who is Moony. He is a werewolf; he is transformed by the moon. And then we have Luna Lovegood, who I mean, of course, the name is a connection, but she is also very much kind of a moony personality. She’s very dotty, as they expressed in the book. So then there’s this feeling of isolation on the Hogwarts Express in both cases for Harry. So in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5, Harry is the only one who’s affected by the Dementor on the train to such an extreme amount, and he feels isolated and embarrassed by that, and is wondering, “Why am I the only one this happened to?” And likewise, in Order of the Phoenix, he feels really isolated and left behind when Ron and Hermione go to their first prefect meeting. Finally, the horseless carriages get a special mention in Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban after riding the Hogwarts Express, and Harry now notes that he can see the creatures that are pulling the carriages. So this was just a really nice chapter of threads that directly correlated back to Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban, and I don’t think this was unintentional. I think J.K. Rowling is a genius.

Andrew: [laughs] I’m starting to think that too.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Thank you, Laura.

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MVP of the Week

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Andrew: Time now for MVP of the Week. I’m going to give it to Luna, because she quickly becomes a fan favorite character, and I like that she’s just an unexpected surprise for Harry, and makes Harry feel very uncomfortable in front of Cho. So thank you, Luna.

Micah: I’ll give it to Ginny just for sticking up for people. She sticks up for Neville; she makes the introduction to Luna. And she fell down the stairs and still had a hell of a chapter, so she’s my MVP of the week.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I’m going to give it to the Quibbler, because this is our first introduction to it, and it proves to be pretty important later on.

Eric: I’m going to give my MVP… I couldn’t decide between two people, but one of them is Tonks, because she’s able to… it’s very kind of a throwaway thing, but she’s able to use her Metamorphmagus capabilities to create the appearance of an old woman, and she walks with them to King’s Cross, and it’s very understated, but there’s your perfect disguise right there. Sirius could learn something from that. And then there’s also… in the Quibbler, there’s a guy who claims he went to the moon on a broom, and I’m just just going to give it to him, too, [laughs] because that’s an outrageous claim.

Andrew: [laughs] The first wizard on the moon. That’s very cool.

Vanessa: I’m going to give it to Cho because so few people are able to make Harry feel like not the hottest thing around, and Cho, with just her presence, can make him feel small, I think in a really humbling and important way. So I’m going to give it to Cho.

Andrew: Okay.

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Rename the Chapter

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Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 10, “Sirius and The Hobgoblins, playing at a venue near you.”

Micah: Do they sing… what was it? Who’d you say? “Luna the Red-Nosed Reindeer”?

Andrew: Luna… [singing] “Looney, the Lovegood reindeer… Ravenclaw.”

[screaming goat sound]

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: There it is.

Eric: Screaming goat.

Micah: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 10, “Bad dog.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 10, “I wish that I could be like the cool kids.”

Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 10, “Moon frogs!” The guy who flew to the moon on a broom brought back moon frogs to prove that he had been there, so whatever. [laughs]

Andrew: Available in chocolate form, I hope.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Vanessa: I love it. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 10, “Seeing upside down.” Just seemed like a very J.K. Rowling way to say something.

Andrew: Yeah. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, feel free to send it in. You can go to MuggleCast.com and you’ll find a contact form. You can also email MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also send a voice memo that way, if you want to record one on your phone and just email it to that same address.

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Quizzitch

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Andrew: Time now for Quizzitch.

Eric: Yep, last week’s question: What does Neville get for his 15th birthday? Turns out it’s Mimbulus Mimbletonia, a very interesting and unique item, I guess, for a birthday present. But he got it from his uncle Algie in Assyria. And the people who submitted the correct answer to us over on Twitter include Anne Smith, Lightning McJingles, Kate Yang, Daniela, Marie, Count Ravioli, Vanessa Cho, Jason King, Amber Forrester, Stacy Zuvrink, and Erica, as well as others. We will mention all of you over on Twitter directly, but be sure when participating, to @ reply us and use hashtag “Quizzitch,” so that we see your replies and you might get a shout-out on our show. Next week’s question: Who is the first new Gryffindor during Harry’s fifth year?

Andrew: Okay. Vanessa, thanks for coming on today. It was so nice to have you on.

Vanessa: This was so fun. Thank you so, so much. And yeah, you all are a delight.

Andrew: Absolutely. So we can find you at Harry Potter and the Sacred Text. How do we find that online? Your show online?

Vanessa: So we’re on the Twitter at @HPSacredText, and same with Instagram, and we have a Facebook discussion group. And wherever you’re listening to this podcast, you can find us.

Andrew: All right, excellent. Thank you again so much; it was so great to have you on, and it’s nice hanging out with fellow Harry Potter podcasters.

Vanessa: Absolutely. Thanks so much, guys.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. And if you out there would like to follow us, we are available on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, username MuggleCast. We would also really appreciate your support at Patreon. Join our community today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast and you will receive new installments of bonus MuggleCast, for example. And like I said, this week we will be discussing why Draco was made a prefect and what theories we have around why and how that happened. Thanks again, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Vanessa: And I’m Vanessa.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See you.

Eric and Micah: Bye.