Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #670, Hermione the Vigilante (GOF Chapter 37, The Beginning)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And this week, we have reached the end of Goblet of Fire with Chapter 37, “The Beginning.” Interesting title for the final chapter, and Micah will complain about it in Chapter by Chapter this week.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: I saw your note. But before we get to the beginning of “The Beginning,” we wanted to give you a quick look at what’s coming up on MuggleCast the next few weeks, because we have a unique schedule in the weeks ahead. So next week, the four of us, including Eric, will be together in Washington, DC for a podcast industry conference, and we will record some sort of episode for you all. We don’t have plans yet, but it probably will involve a butterbeer or two, and it’ll be fun because we’re all going to be together, the four of us, for the first time as a group in years.
Micah: When was the last time? That’s the real question.
Andrew: I’ve been trying to think of that. I don’t know.
Micah: New York?
Laura: Would it have been Infinitus when the theme park opened?
Andrew: [laughs] Don’t tell me it was back in 2010.
Laura: Because here’s the thing: We’ve all been together in various pairings and trios, but the four of us being together, it’s been a really long time.
Andrew: Right. Are we sure we’ve all ever been together, period?
Laura: What is time? [laughs]
Andrew: I think you might be right, Laura; I think it might be Infinitus in 2010, that Harry Potter conference around, like you said, the opening of the Wizarding World. That’s crazy.
Laura: 14 years later.
Micah: Is that when we did the panel in the Hog’s Head? Or not the Hog’s Head, the Three Broomsticks. You see where my head is at.
Andrew: Yeah, the Wizarding World land, yes. We were the only Harry Potter podcast to ever do a podcast there, I believe, so that’s a pretty cool honor too.
Micah: That’s true. It’s so interesting because there are pictures coming back into my mind of dinners in New York since then, because I know Laura, you obviously lived here for a period of time, and Kevin was also in the city. Andrew, you probably came to visit at some point; Eric, too, so it’s just… it’s probably the combinations just never worked out where all four of us were together.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. So our reunion episode, our IRL reunion episode, will happen next week. And then the following week, MuggleCast recorded live at LeakyCon – that was in July – in which Micah, Eric, and Chloé reflect on our 19th anniversary. That will be released. You also look back at the Deathly Hallows epilogue. And then the week after that will probably be a Muggle Mail episode; that one will be released September 5. And then a Order of the Phoenix movie commentary, September 12, and then I think we’re going to begin Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter September 19. So there’s the next four or five weeks of MuggleCast for everybody.
Laura: Wow. Isn’t September 19 Hermione’s birthday? I think I’m recalling that correctly.
Andrew: Yeah, you’re right.
Laura: Also International Talk Like a Pirate Day.
[Andrew gasps]
Micah: Oh. [laughs]
Andrew: How do you know that so quickly?
Laura: I don’t know, honestly. It’s just one of those things.
Micah: Emma Watson will be on the show and talk like a pirate the whole time.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: So there we go. That’s what’s coming up on MuggleCast here in late summer.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: So without further ado, let’s get into Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing the final chapter in Goblet of Fire – another book finished – Chapter 37, “The Beginning.”
Micah: I thought you were going to go, [imitating Dumbledore] “Another book, gone.”
Andrew: I did that last week. I’ll do it at the end of this week too; remind me. All right, here we go.
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Micah: Relationships…
Laura: … blossom…
Andrew: … when…
Micah: … the…
Andrew: … trio…
Laura: … parts…
Micah: … ways.
Andrew: Okay. Oh, phew, y’all saved that. Good job. [laughs]
Laura: I thought we actually did pretty well, because that is one of the takeaways of this chapter that we’ll certainly get into.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Laura: But before we kick it off, I just want to say Goblet of Fire is my favorite book, as is well documented here on the show, and we did not plan it this way, but somehow I ended up doing the first chapter and the last chapter in terms of leading discussions, which feels really poetic and really random because we definitely didn’t plan it this way, but it’s what we did.
Andrew: That’s awesome. I’m glad it worked out that way.
Micah: Do you have a favorite chapter of Goblet of Fire?
Laura: Oh, man. What a question. I really like – and I’m terrible at remembering chapter names – I love the chapter where Harry is trapped in the stairwell under the Invisibility Cloak when Fakey comes around right as Snape is about to find him. I really, really love that chapter.
Micah: Cool.
Laura: Good question, though. I may have to go back and maybe change my mind. [laughs]
Micah: I’m sure somebody in the Discord will tell us the name of that chapter.
Laura: Yeah. Why do I want to say it’s “The Egg and the Eye”?
Andrew: That is a chapter.
Micah: Could be, because Harry drops the egg and that’s what causes all the ruckus.
Laura: Well, there was definitely a lot of ruckus, I guess it could be charitably called, over the last couple of chapters. But the main focus in this chapter is really the aftermath of everything that happened in the maze, with Cedric dying, with all of the attacks, with Harry nearly dying but managing to survive, Voldemort rising back to power, and all of these puzzle pieces coming together for all of the strange deaths and disappearances and happenings that have been going on for the last year. This is really where we get to see Harry and his peers and the rest of the major cast of characters really grapple with what’s happening and trying to make sense of it. And I know that we’re going to be able to pull some deep, insightful, intellectual points out of that conversation, but Micah, something’s bugging you, and I want to give you space.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: And it’s not Rita Skeeter as a bug.
Micah: I forgot that segment ever existed until Laura just said that.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: For newer listeners, we did have a older segment on the show from time to time called “What’s Buggin’ Micah,” and this would fit in it. We talk about how this book is rushed, and no greater evidence of that than that the last chapter of Goblet of Fire is titled “The Beginning.” And I get it, but creatively…
Andrew: Do you? What do you think it means? What do you think it means?
Micah: It’s the start of the Second War.
Andrew: Okay, yeah. That would be my takeaway too.
Micah: It’s the start of Voldemort coming back to power and certain things being put into motion. But it just seems so generic for the author to title a chapter this way, especially at the very end of a book. Normally, you think at the beginning, it’s at the start. But I just… when I read it, I was like, “Really?” It seems kind of flat.
Laura: What would you have called it? If we were to rename the chapter, what would be better?
Andrew: Oooh.
Micah: Brock in the Discord says, “The Start of Something New.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Although that might be on par with “The Beginning.” We used to do that on the show, too; we used to rename the chapter.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: Maybe we should bring that back for Order of the Phoenix, because I don’t think we’re doing MVP of the Week for Order of the Phoenix, since we did it with our last reread. So maybe this is foreshadowing what we’ll do with Book 5. How about a note that Laura wrote in here? “The Magical European Giant Envoy Adventure with Madame Maxime.” That could be the chapter title.
Micah: Love it.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yeah, it’s Hagrid’s Magical Giant Envoy Adventure with Madame Maxime. The “Hagrid’s” is very important in front of that.
Andrew: Yes, yes.
Laura: But yeah, I mean, I see where you’re coming from, Micah, because there are a lot of other themes that could have been pulled out of this that would, I think, resonate the same way and send the same message without being quite so… I don’t know, trope-y, I guess. [laughs] Maybe that’s the issue.
Andrew: If I’m looking at this chapter title in a list, in the Table of Contents, yes, I agree with you. But like you said, Micah, this is representing the start of this new war, and I think there’s a lot of setup in this chapter for Book 5, so in that way it makes sense to me, because there are many foreshadowy type moments in this chapter.
Laura: Well, so this chapter – and I feel like I had this happen a lot with this book – I feel like the movie influenced my memories of certain events. And when I think of the way this book ends, I think of Dumbledore’s speech in the Great Hall and then everyone parts ways, and that’s not actually what happens. There’s still a little bit of term left after the third task, during which Harry has to do a couple of things that are tough in different ways. First and foremost, he has to meet with the Diggories and recount Cedric’s last moments to them, which… it’s got to be difficult. We already know Harry is probably feeling some survivor’s guilt, and we see that he feels guilt towards Cedric being the one who was lost in trying to give the Diggories his Triwizard winnings that he got from Fudge in the last chapter; they won’t take it. But something that I thought was interesting about this interaction is that Amos Diggory just bawls through the entire interaction with Harry, and Mrs. Diggory doesn’t. Harry describes her grief as being beyond tears, and I wondered if that was some kind of literary illusion or commentary on motherhood, or the love of a mother being distinct.
Andrew: I guess you could say – and I really don’t mean to make a joke out of this – but I guess you could say Lily’s love for Harry was beyond tears as well; I mean, that went a whole other level. I was also thinking it would have been really nice for Cedric’s mom and Harry to bond in maybe just Book 5 at least, because she lost her son and he, Harry, lost his mom, so they would have fit nicely together. I mean, we don’t even know Cedric’s mom’s first name; she’s just referred to as “Mrs. Diggory.” For some reason we know Amos’s but not her name, which I find a little strange too. Rushed.
Laura: Yeah. Well, this is the only time we see her, right? We never saw her before, and we’ll never see her again, so…
Andrew: Yeah, but the first time we meet her is a good time to learn her first name, I kind of feel.
Laura: Yeah. It was such a quick interaction, though; it was literally less than a paragraph of description.
Andrew: Yeah, no, I agree. It could have just been so much more, though. Like I was saying, they both lost somebody in reverse roles, if you want to describe it that way. I think that could have been an interesting dynamic to read later on.
Laura: Yeah, I agree. It does kind of feel like a miss that we never hear about the Diggories again until Cedric…
Micah: Oh, we do in Cursed Child.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Yeah, until Cedric comes back and goes bad. [laughs] But something else that Harry has to do after the events of the third task, which I just find to be reprehensible, ridiculous, and outrageous, is still go to classes. They’re still having classes. What? Classes should have been canceled for the rest of term for everyone. The entire student population just went through something traumatic. And especially, why is Harry having to go?
Micah: Maybe it was just seen as a way for him to be able to work through the situation that he just experienced? But given some of his professors and his relationship to them, can’t imagine that that sat well. Maybe it was just good for him to be around his fellow students. If he had gone straight home to the Dursleys after what happened, it probably would have been a lot worse than what we see him experience.
Andrew: Ooh, yeah.
Micah: I mean, he goes through a lot over the summer, and we’ll talk about it during the Order of the Phoenix reread, but got to imagine it would have been even worse for him if he didn’t have an additional month to be able to process everything that went on. But one thing I wanted to call attention to is that it’s noted that even though classes are going on, there is no Defense Against the Dark Arts because of what happened to the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor. However, the real Moody is still at Hogwarts, but he’s not teaching, and I just feel like this is a really awkward situation where he’s going to meals each and every day, sitting up at the professors’ dais, but he’s not doing anything there. Is this just for him to be able to recover too? Albus is like, “Alastor, I’m so sorry. Everything that’s happened this year; please have a few meals on Hogwarts.”
Andrew: [laughs] He wanted Alastor to experience a usual month at Hogwarts, so that’s why classes resumed, but DADA did not. I think… let’s say they did cancel all the classes. What are the kids going to do? If you think about in the Muggle world, if school got canceled or school ended a month early, that throws off a lot of parents, so maybe that’s a factor as well.
Laura: Yeah. Is it a full month?
Andrew: I don’t know what it is.
Micah: I thought so.
Andrew: I feel like in the beginning of the chapter, it did say something about a month passing.
Laura: Okay. Yeah, because the way I read it, it was maybe a couple of weeks or something, but it could have been longer.
Andrew: The chapter begins, “When he looked back, even a month later, Harry found he had only scattered memories of the next few days.” Okay. Well, so I don’t know how to read this now. Well, is the month later present day, or is it even after this chapter?
Laura: Yeah, is it the month later, as in when he’s back at the Dursleys? I suppose it doesn’t really matter, because again, I think it’s really strange that we have some classes, not others, that people are expected to attend. It’s kind of the same vibe that I always used to feel as a student; obviously, circumstances here are very different, but when you would have to do end of year exams but then you still had another two weeks of school afterwards, and it was like, “Why do I have to be here?” But he does get to have one last heart to heart with Hagrid before heading back to Privet Drive, which is a good thing that Harry gets to do before he leaves. And I think Hagrid drops some really sage advice in this exchange about the current situation they’re in and what Harry can and can’t do about it. Micah, I was wondering, could we get you to read this Hagrid quote? You do the best Hagrid.
Andrew: He took a big sip of water as you were asking, so I think he was anticipating it.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: Is it southern Hagrid or is it just Hagrid?
Laura: It’s up to you.
Andrew: [in an exaggerated southern accent] Hagrid.
Laura: Whatever you’re feeling.
Micah: I don’t know. We’ll see what comes out.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: “Known it fer years, Harry. Knew he was out there, bidin’ his time. It had ter happen. Well, now it has, an’ we’ll jus’ have ter get on with it. We’ll fight. Migh’ be able to stop him before he gets a good hold. That’s Dumbledore’s plan anyway. Great man, Dumbledore. ‘S long as we’ve got him, I’m not too worried.”
Laura: Bravo. That was very good.
Andrew: Good voice and good remarks from Hagrid about Dumbledore.
Micah: Yeah, no southern twinge there.
Laura: There was kind of.
Micah: Was there?
Laura: There was a little bit; I picked up on it. It was subtle, but it was in there. I so appreciated what Hagrid had to say here to Harry, because I think he’s helping the trio understand that this will not be fixed quickly. This isn’t like the other events of their prior years where they were able to defeat the bad guy and come back to school knowing that things were going to be “normal” and that there wasn’t a looming threat over them. That’s not the case anymore. They didn’t solve the puzzle this time. They didn’t win this time.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Laura: And he’s letting Harry know that that’s okay and that that’s not on him and it’s not on the trio to have fixed this. Again, I think Harry, coming out of a situation like this, could have a lot of survivor’s guilt, but also guilt at feeling like, “Why couldn’t I stop this?” Or “Why didn’t I catch this sooner? Why did I trust Moody so much?” And we’ve seen Harry do this before where he’s kind of hard on himself, and Hagrid is basically saying, “You’re 14. We will meet the challenges as they come, but there’s nothing to do about it or worry about at this moment.”
Andrew: Yeah, and Hagrid offered a couple other great lines in this chapter. He says, “What’s comin’ will come, an’ we’ll meet it when it does.” And I like this because this is a good lesson about just rolling with the punches. And actually, Harry remembers this line in the very last sentence of the book, which I think puts a point on just how powerful this thought was from Hagrid. And Hagrid also said to Harry… he asked him if he’s all right, and Harry lied; he said, “Yeah, I’m all right.” And Hagrid said, “No, you’re not. Of course you’re not.” And I really like this moment, too, because it’s a typical human moment where someone says they’re fine when really they’re not, and Hagrid, knowing Harry very well at this point, can just read it on his face, and he can say to Harry, point blank, “You’re not okay,” and that is implying it’s okay to not be okay.
Micah: This is like part of our Inside Out conversation from What the Hype?! in terms of emotions and therapy. But we were just talking about this before: Why did the students stay? Well, for Harry in particular, this is as good as a therapy session to be able to go and talk with Hagrid. And as you were pointing out, Andrew, Hagrid is being very real. He’s being very transparent in this moment, and he’s saying a lot of things to Harry that I think he needs to hear.
Andrew: Yeah. His comments also just break gender stereotypes. This big, burly, giant half-giant saying to Harry here, “It’s okay to not be okay. What’s coming will come. It’s all right; you can be in your feelings right now.” And I like that too, because too often there’s this issue with fathers or father figures where they don’t want to talk with their children or important people in their lives and let it out.
Micah: And he has some self-deprecating humor as well, because he throws out, “Hey, you want to go check out the last Skrewt? I’m just joking, I’m just joking.”
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.
Micah: He recognizes in that moment that making fun of himself in terms of his teaching over the last year could also bring a smile to Harry’s face.
Andrew: Yeah. Also, just to circle back to his comments on Dumbledore: Dumbledore, we learn in this chapter, wants Harry to drop by Privet Drive for a hot minute before continuing on to the Weasleys’, and Harry asks why, and Ron says, “Dumbledore’s got his reasons.” And we don’t know what this means now, but of course later we find out that Harry needs to check in on a regular basis – what is it, a yearly basis? – for the magic to stay in place, the protection to stay in place, so thought that was a cool bit of foreshadowing, too.
Laura: Right.
Micah: The one other thing I just wanted to add is I think Hagrid understands Harry’s situation better than most people do, and I say that more with respect to maybe how he’s feeling in terms of the response he’s getting from other students after everything that’s happened. Just knowing Hagrid’s past and what he’s gone through, it seems like he’s in a position to best give Harry advice here.
Laura: I agree. And as we teased at the top of the show, this is the chapter where we get the tease for Hagrid’s Magical European Giant Envoy Adventure with Madame Maxime.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: That is actually longer than Hagrid’s Magical Creature Motorbike Adventure.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Well, yeah, the sequel has to be longer. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, you’ve got to one-up the original. We need a segment on the show called “Theme park that.”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: We have “Max that,” but we need “Theme park that.” Turn that into a theme park ride, too, Universal.
Laura: Why not? [laughs]
Andrew: Why not?
Laura: But he’s clearly had to do a bit of convincing of Madame Maxime. When the trio get there, there are a couple of large mugs on Hagrid’s table, and he lets them know that she’s just been around for tea and that he’s managed to convince her to do some sort of mission that Dumbledore has for them. He won’t tell the trio any more than that, but of course, knowing what happens in Order of the Phoenix and the next time we see Hagrid, we know where he will have been. But it makes me wonder how Madame Maxime reacted when Dumbledore approached she and Hagrid with this, because she’s been in denial about who she is this entire book, presumably her entire adult life, and I wonder how quickly Dumbledore would have cut through something like that. If he was like, “Hey, I need you and Hagrid to go make an envoy with the giants because… you know,” and I could see her being like, “What? What do you mean?” And Dumbledore being like, “Okay, everyone knows. Just calm down.” [laughs]
Andrew: So my big feeling here is Madame Maxime did not sign up for all this when she came to Hogwarts with her students this year.
Laura: Oh, no.
Andrew: She comes for the Triwizard Tournament and wants to go back home, and now she’s maybe falling for Hagrid, and also now has to go on this magical creature motorbike giant adventure.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: I would be like, “Sorry, this is not what I signed up for. I’m here for the school season. I’m here for the Triwizard Tournament, and then I’m out. Like, no.” [laughs] Imagine you all went on a work trip, and then somebody’s trying to sign you up for another work trip on that existing work trip.
Laura: Yeah, that would suck. But I don’t know; what if Dumbledore is also low-key setting them up? “Go travel together…”
Andrew: Yeah, he’s a matchmaker. For sure.
Micah: I think Madame Maxime probably had a little bit of a realization after everything that’s gone on this year, and perhaps with what happened to Cedric and just seeing everything play out the way that it did over the last couple of weeks, months, she’s willing to take direction from Dumbledore and work with Hagrid on this.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Micah: She recognizes the threat, and she believes what Dumbledore is saying.
Laura: Yeah. And actually, Michelle in our Discord is positing, “Maybe Madame Maxime was part of the original resistance, so she knows what’s coming and what it means.”
Andrew: Ooh, I like that.
Laura: Yeah, I like that too. Well, we’ll be back in a moment to talk about Dumbledore’s end of year speech, but first, a few words from these sponsors.
[Ad break]
Laura: All right, so we learn in this chapter that Dumbledore gives two speeches to the school; one of them we don’t get to hear because it happens when Harry is still in the hospital wing, but what we do learn is that Dumbledore basically says, “Leave Harry alone. Don’t bother him. Don’t ask him questions.” But this one, this end of year speech, is really somber. Harry enters the Great Hall, and instead of it being donned in the colors of the winner of the House Cup, it’s covered in black, right? There’s black drapes everywhere, mourning Cedric, and Dumbledore raises a toast to Cedric and drops some pretty blunt honesty about what happened to him on the student body, which he correctly predicts that some parents are going to have feelings about, and we really do see that play out in the next book with the way that the student body and a lot of even adult wizards are treating Harry and Dumbledore like they’re crazy, like they’re fear-mongering and inciting panic amongst the people. But I thought it was really telling that Dumbledore specifically said, “Some of your parents will think you’re too young to hear this, and some of them just won’t want to believe that it’s true,” and he’s so right about it. So many people are in denial.
Andrew: Yeah. But I also agree that some of the kids at school are too young, I think, to be hearing this. Some of those kids are as young as 11 years old, so I think there’s a middle ground solution here. Split the kids up, 14 and older, or maybe even 13 and older, and then the 11- and 12-year-olds can just live in…
Micah: Hmm.
Andrew: What, don’t agree?
Micah: Well, I’m just…
Laura: They’re going to hear about it anyway.
Micah: Yeah, I’m almost comparing it to real world situations. If you have something like a school shooting, where unfortunately, students are killed, naturally the whole school is going to hear about it. They’re all going to sit through some kind of post-event speech from their principal or their superintendent or somebody else that’s going to talk to them about what happened. So are you saying less so about Cedric, more so about Voldemort? Because at this point, Voldemort is just hearsay. Is that the part you’re struggling with the 11-year-olds hearing about?
Andrew: Yeah, I think hearing that Cedric died is okay, but maybe they don’t need to know that it was at the hand of Voldemort and basically on school grounds during their tournament. I think it’s just a lot for an 11-year-old.
Micah: It’s almost like Dumbledore is establishing his position by doing this. He’s saying very clearly to students who are going to go back to their parents and share this information, and we know that those parents run the gamut in terms of their beliefs and who they’ve supported in the past, so it’s almost like he is trying to distinguish himself and get himself out in front of what’s to come with Fudge and the Ministry in the next book.
Andrew: Yeah, get in front of the Ministry spin by getting his side of the story out, because maybe some people will be more inclined to believe Dumbledore if he is coming out with this information sooner rather than later, and certainly sooner than the Ministry trying to spin this. I do like that school shooting example, too. I hadn’t thought about that.
Laura: Yeah. I think also kids can tell when you’re BS-ing them, and I think back to when I was a kid, and I always had a lot of respect and trust in adults who didn’t dumb things down for me just because I was a kid, so I think that’s part of what’s happening here. We have to remember, unfortunately, some underage students do stay behind to fight in Deathly Hallows, so some of these first years in this book will be, what, fourth years by the time that happens? It’s entirely possible that some of them did stay to fight when they weren’t supposed to, right? And who knows what the trajectory would have been for those students had Dumbledore lied or sugarcoated things for them in terms of what they believed, for example, or how they carried themselves in conversations about Voldemort, because it has to be one of the main things that kids are talking about over the next couple of books.
Micah: It has to cause a level of mass hysteria, too, not just amongst the students, but amongst the family members that they take this back to, thinking about… it really does run the spectrum in terms of the response, because I’m sure, well, the Malfoys already know he’s back, but the Longbottoms, for example… Neville talks about… or maybe it’s even Augusta who makes an appearance in the next book and talks about her faith in Dumbledore. But we see it with Harry’s other roommates who are less supportive of this whole situation, so it really does create a lot of turmoil, or it will be creating a lot of turmoil by the time next term starts.
Laura: Yeah, and we definitely see the seeds being planted here. Earlier in the chapter, Harry notes that he feels like his peers are skirting him in the halls and that he feels like they’ve bought into Rita Skeeter’s rhetoric about him being off his rocker. But then, with all of that in mind, Dumbledore toasts Harry for his bravery in facing Voldemort and bringing back Cedric’s body, and at that point, all heads in the Great Hall are turned to Harry, which is the last thing he wants right now, because he had this horrific traumatic event befall him. And he also knows that easily, half of his peers, if not more, think he’s crazy, and now Dumbledore is turning all of their attention to him. So I don’t think he wants it, but I do think that it was the right thing for Dumbledore to do, because Harry needs the credibility.
Andrew: Yeah, and I think, right, he needs to be told “You did everything you could. You did the right thing.” And as for the Slytherins who did stand, I think this is a moment of just… there’s a debate about whether or not Voldemort is back, but there’s no denying that Harry brought Cedric’s body back from whatever happened, and that definitely deserves a standing ovation and a round of applause.
Laura: Yeah. So on that note, Andrew, I thought the way this was written was so interesting because it’s said that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and many other Slytherins remained defiantly in their seats when Dumbledore toasted Harry, which to me implies some of them did remain standing, and I’ve just got to say, that’s a pretty brave show, given that there are at least three children of active Death Eaters sitting at that table. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, I think… I mean, so you’re saying the Death Eaters might come and attack them later, or the kids will?
Laura: I don’t know if it automatically puts a target on their back, but this is not a time that I would want a target being put on my back at all. You know what I mean? I feel like if you’re a Slytherin who is standing up to toast Harry Potter after he escaped Voldemort, that’s going to raise some questions in the common room.
Andrew: But he saved Cedric, too; that’s really important. As a Slytherin, I would stand if we were toasting Harry in this moment.
Micah: Yeah, and there’s no social media; you don’t have to worry about somebody showing Mr. Malfoy photos from the Slytherin table.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But this is hard for me. It feels almost like Dumbledore is doing a bit of fan service on behalf of Harry. I don’t know that you needed to toast him. I think you could have recognized him, but toast him in the same moment that you just toasted Cedric? I don’t know; it just didn’t feel right to me. I don’t think he needed it.
Andrew: Giving that the same honor is a little odd; I think I can agree with you there. Harry doesn’t need to be toasted like Cedric was, because Harry is still alive. Some sort of acknowledgement, but maybe not a toast. I could see that. I can get down with you on that.
Micah: What are they toasting, by the way? What are they drinking? I want to know.
Andrew: Water? Butterbeer?
Micah: Water. [laughs]
Laura: Nothing good, because they’re all underage.
Micah: That’s true. Dumbledore isn’t, though. He’s well overage.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: He deserves a drink. A real one.
Laura: Well, yeah, I think he always has a stiff drink when he’s in the Great Hall. I don’t think there’s ever a time when something nonalcoholic is in that man’s goblet. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, when dealing with all those kids? I would too.
Laura: Toasting Cedric and Harry isn’t the only thing that is at the heart of Dumbledore’s speech; he really wants to talk about what the purpose of the Triwizard Tournament was, and in this he verbally embraces the students from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang to welcome them back to Hogwarts anytime. And what I love that he does here, he really impresses upon all the students here that Voldemort thrives the most when he’s able to cause discord amongst people and division, so really trying to encourage all of these students to maintain the bonds that they’ve built throughout the year. And Krum in particular looks distinctly uncomfortable when Dumbledore looks at the Durmstrang table. I was wondering, is he worried that the rest of the students are going to jump to assumptions because of Karkaroff fleeing after the events of last night and all of the other perceptions that come with Durmstrang?
Micah: Probably. And we don’t know it yet, but that’s also where Grindelwald went, and Dumbledore knows that. Krum knows that. Does Dumbledore know that Krum knows that? I don’t know.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, it’s kind of an elephant in the room type of situation. I mean, for Karkaroff to flee is a pretty bad look.
Laura: Yeah. Well, after Dumbledore’s speech, we finally do reach a point where all of the Hogwarts students and their friends from France and Bulgaria are truly parting ways, and we have a little bit of a foreshadowing alert here because in one way or another, it’s made very apparent that we’re going to see Fleur and Viktor again.
[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]
Laura: So first of all, Fleur approaches Harry and says, “Hey, I’m hoping to come back to England to get a job so I can improve my English. I hope we’ll see each other again.” We obviously know where that’s going and who helps her improve her English in the next couple of years. [laughs]
Andrew: Ayy.
Laura: But Viktor also approaches and asks Hermione for a private word so he can say goodbye to her.
Andrew: Woop!
Laura: I know. Oooh!
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I’m kind of surprised other students around them didn’t do that. But there is this moment of respect between Fleur and Viktor; Fleur is so much more warm towards Harry in this interaction than she was in the beginning of the year when she just referred to him as a “little boy” and she was pissed off at him for being in the tournament, and both she and Krum shake hands with Harry. So I wanted to ask if, based on the relationships that Harry has built with Fleur and Viktor, do we think that the tournament was successful in its mission of breeding magical cooperation? International magical cooperation?
Andrew: [laughs] Well, look, if Cedric didn’t die, I’m not so sure we would have this same outcome. That could be a whole episode: What would have changed if that whole event did not happen?
Micah: See Cursed Child.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Well, I think Fleur and Krum are shaking Harry’s hand largely because of him bringing back Cedric. I mean, that just changes everything. Like, okay, he did not want to put himself through all of this, the tournament. He did not deserve to have to face potentially Voldemort. He didn’t deserve to have to bring Cedric’s body back. I think it’s more of a show of respect for what Harry went through, not necessarily this unifying event only brought to us by the Triwizard Tournament.
Micah: I could agree with that. I think some of it has to do with how Harry chose to act in the second task and save Gabrielle that endeared Fleur to him without question, and I think that formed a bond. And we saw Krum speaking pretty civilly to Harry before they ran into Barty Crouch, Sr. in the forest, and complimenting him, even, on his Quidditch, right? Or on his flying in the first task. So the person I really want to talk about, though, is Hermione, because we talk about this whole… she even talks about international cooperation, right? That’s the whole point of the Triwizard Tournament. She rightly criticizes Ron earlier on in this book for how he behaves towards Krum, but in this moment even, in this final chapter, she kind of rolls her eyes and walks away when Fleur approaches Harry, and that probably just speaks to her opinion of her, but it’s not very international cooperation-y. [laughs]
Laura: I felt like she was more rolling her eyes at how Ron reacted to Fleur.
Micah: Oh, maybe.
Laura: Because when she said, “I want to come here so I can improve my English,” and I think Ron said something like, “It’s already very good,” and I guess Fleur gave him a genuine beam, like she beamed at him. She was very kind to him and he kind of, I think, was tongue-tied at that point.
Micah: I just don’t see her having become buddy-buddy with the Beauxbatons contingent.
Laura: No, I don’t think so. Well, I think Hermione… she’s a teenage girl, right? She’s got some of those insecurities. And we already talked about how there’s a good deal of xenophobia that’s represented in the way that the British characters react to the French characters in particular in this book, so I think there’s probably some of that in there.
Micah: But to answer your question, though, I do think it was successful because of what we see happen in future books. We already talked about Madame Maxime partnering up with Hagrid to go speak with the giants, so there are certain good things that have come out of this year.
Laura: Yeah. I do tend to agree, though, that I think unfortunately the real unifier here is the fact that Cedric died and Voldemort came back, because it was kind of jarring for everyone and made everyone realize what’s actually important. And it’s like, “Well, this tournament is not important. Who cares about the tournament?”
Micah: That is actually a really good point. I can imagine just Madame Maxime and Fleur being kind of… not really caring one way or the other, but certainly Karkaroff being super pissed if Harry and/or Cedric ended up winning the tournament and Krum was left on the outskirts again.
Laura: Well, when the trio are on the train, we do finally get some payoff on the whole Rita Skeeter subplot of this book. Hermione gets a copy of the Prophet off the lunch trolley and confirms for Harry that no news about Voldemort’s return or Cedric’s death have been reported on, which already shows us the beginning of what we’re going to see from the press over these next couple of books. But Hermione also makes the reveal that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered Animagus and has been transforming into a beetle all year to get inside scoops.
[Andrew makes buzzing noise]
Laura: She was the beetle on the statue in the garden at the Yule Ball, she was the beetle in Hermione’s hair after the second task, and she was sitting on the windowsill in Divination when Harry’s scar was hurting.
[Andrew makes buzzing noise]
Laura: So this is where Hermione gets into a little bit of unhinged vigilante justice, and I kind of love it.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I kind of love it because she puts Rita Skeeter in a jar, [laughs] and puts an Unbreakable Charm on that jar so that Rita cannot transform. So presumably, she’s had Rita in this jar for at least several days, because she catches her in the hospital wing when Harry is recovering after the maze.
Micah: This is where the timing question comes into play, too, because you just mentioned she pulled the Daily Prophet off the trolley cart, and presumably, if you were expecting to see something about Cedric’s death, that would mean that Cedric’s death would have happened fairly recently, as opposed to a month later that’s probably not news that’s going to… now, I don’t know that it’s news that the Ministry ever would have wanted to get into the paper anyway; that’s a whole other discussion, but this made me think as… because I thought, “Well, if they said it’s been at least a month, Rita has been in there for at least a month?” But maybe not. I’m confused now.
Andrew: Yeah, it is a big question to me, because I’m wondering if people at the Ministry or the Prophet are concerned about her whereabouts, because something horrific just happened at Hogwarts, and Rita goes missing pretty soon after that for X amount of time? In light of what just happened with Voldemort and Cedric, I think there’s some serious cause for concern if anybody goes missing right now.
Laura: Yeah, but I mean, Fudge is in denial, and he’s the only member of the Ministry who heard the truth, who Dumbledore shared it with, at least that night. And we see how Fudge treated Bertha Jorkins, so I don’t know if…
Andrew: He doesn’t care. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah, I don’t think he cares all that much.
Micah: But maybe the Daily Prophet cares more about their employees than the Ministry does.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Laura: I don’t know. Is Rita a full-time employee at the Daily Prophet?
Micah: I don’t think so.
Laura: I don’t think that’s how that works.
Micah: Contributing writer. [laughs]
Andrew: I love talking about the news world in the wizarding world. You’ve got to think she’s frequently in contact with her people at the Prophet, so for her to suddenly not be heard from would raise some flags, but okay. I mean…
Laura: Maybe. But here, think about this: If she is someone who, as an illegal Animagus, frequently uses that to go undercover and get stories, it might not be unusual for them not to hear from her for a while, because what if she’s deep undercover?
Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.
Laura: [laughs] She’s in beetle form for, like, two weeks.
Andrew: Yeah, she’s embedded. Is that normally what the…? She’s an embedded reporter.
Laura: Right. [laughs] Can you imagine? But what I love about this is that Hermione tells Rita… I love the idea of her holding the jar and talking to Rita and saying, “I’ll let you out when we get to London…”
Andrew: If you’re a good girl.
Laura: “… and you can’t write a damn thing for a year, or else I’m going to out you for being an illegal Animagus.” So this sets up perfectly for the next interaction that we’re going to have with Rita in Order of the Phoenix when Hermione removes the gag order and tells Rita, “You are going to write a story; it’s just going to be a very specific story, and I’m going to direct the slant of it.”
Micah: One thing I did want to call attention to here, and there actually are some similarities between the end of Prisoner of Azkaban and the end of Goblet of Fire, the most notable one was that what just passed actually with Barty Crouch, Jr. being a Death Eater and getting his soul sucked out by a Dementor. That obviously doesn’t happen at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban with Sirius, who’s a presumed Death Eater, but then it ends up happening in Goblet of Fire. Well, we didn’t have the Animagus Peter Pettigrew caught at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, but we do have the Animagus – unregistered, of course – in Rita Skeeter, who is caught by Hermione.
Andrew: Sweet justice for evil Animagi.
Micah: Just trying to connect some threads there.
Andrew: Yeah, no, it’s a good one.
Laura: No, that’s a really good connection. And honestly, I think Hermione probably learned something from last year.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: It’s true.
Laura: We’ve seen Hermione… Hermione connects the threads all the time, too, and so she’s already… she’s probably remembering, “How was it that Peter Pettigrew was able to be right under our noses for three years? Maybe that’s what Rita is doing.”
Andrew: Hiding as something else. Yeah, that’s a good point too.
Laura: Well, we’re going to take a quick break before we come back and wrap the chapter, so stay with us; we’ll be right back.
[Ad break]
Laura: And of course, the story would not be complete without the Three Stooges – Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle – coming to harass the trio, and Malfoy reminds Harry of the interaction that they had on the Hogwarts Express nearly four years ago, when he warned Harry not to hang out with riffraff like the Weasleys. And right as he’s about to say something really distasteful about Cedric’s death, the trio, Fred, and George hit these three with different hexes and knock them unconscious, and they’re just in varying states of, I don’t know, disarray. I think Goyle has some kind of growth coming off of his face.
Andrew: A pimple? We all got one of those, especially at that age.
Laura: No, it was more than that. It was more than that.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Laura: Harry does use Furnunculus, though, which I think is what Malfoy tried to use on him earlier in the book, and isn’t that the one that hit Hermione? Or was it the other way around?
Andrew: I can’t remember, but it did shake me that Draco was bringing up his comments to Harry from four years ago, and I think the fact that he dug that old memory up tells me how rocked Draco has been by the events of the last month. He’s fired up and he’s pissed that Harry isn’t on his side, and he’s ready to take out some anger on Harry and everybody who’s not on him and his father’s side.
Laura: Yeah, he’s definitely got that sports team mentality about all of it, because he’s never actually had to face up to any of this. It’s really easy to be staunchly on the Dark side of this war if you never really had any skin in the game. It’s all rhetoric at that point, so Draco has a couple of years before it becomes real for him. And then Fred and George also give us a reveal about their attempts to blackmail Ludo Bagman all year, and the kicker that Bagman was attempting to pay back his debts to the goblins by betting on Harry to win the tournament, which is why he was trying to help Harry all year. With that in mind, should Harry have let Bagman help him? Would the outcome have been different?
Micah: I feel like Mad-Eye Fakey had way more intel than Ludo did. I’d be curious to know the type of help Ludo would have provided Harry. Would he have actually told him how to get through some of these tasks the way that Fakey did?
Andrew: Why, because Ludo wouldn’t want to make it too obvious that he was getting help?
Micah: No, I don’t know. I’m just thinking about how smart Ludo actually is. Fakey was legitimately taking other champions out of Harry’s way. [laughs] I don’t think Ludo would have done that.
Andrew: No, no, but some hints about what he needs to succeed in each tournament or in each task would suffice.
Micah: True.
Laura: Yeah, I agree.
Micah: But just talking about Ludo and his debt to the goblins, I was reading up on this a little bit, and we know that goblins don’t have the same rights as witches and wizards; they’re not treated the same in the wizarding world. And because they likely don’t have any legal course of action they could take against Ludo, do we think this is why they’re trying to get money back from him the way that they are? There’s just no real means for them to otherwise do it.
Andrew: Yeah, and they don’t really have any oversight anyway. There’s no rules for them.
Micah: Right, they can’t go to the Ministry. I just… I don’t know how they would be treated by Ministry officials if they did bring a case against Ludo.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: I don’t see the goblins moving as though they’re subject to wizarding law, so what they do to Bagman in this book feels pretty on brand. And I’ve played Hogwarts Legacy, so…
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: You know. You’ve been there.
Laura: I know.
Micah: You’ve taken out a few goblins?
Laura: Just a few.
Andrew: It does seem kind of crazy to me that Ludo would want to make a bet with the goblins, knowing that they could potentially operate in this way. Surely this isn’t news to him that they will come after him if he loses.
Laura: Yeah. Well, and we do see that they play just as dirty as as he did, right? Because ultimately, they said, “No, you didn’t win this because Harry didn’t win the cup alone; Harry and Cedric got it at the same time.”
Andrew: Right.
Micah: Yeah, they’re smart.
Andrew: Which almost could have… honestly, that should have been a predictable outcome. Even if Voldemort wasn’t there, even if BCJ wasn’t involved, couldn’t we all see Harry and Cedric being like, “Oh, you know what? We’re both so close to the cup. We’re ahead of Fleur and Krum. Let’s take it together, because we’re both from Hogwarts.” I think if I were Ludo, I would have anticipated this happening.
Micah: Yeah, the goblins are very mafioso. I’m thinking about Ron Perlman’s character from Fantastic Beasts.
Andrew: Oh, okay, yeah.
Micah: The way that he comes across in that speakeasy. I bet all goblins are that tough, most of them, except the ones in Hogwarts Legacy.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: But HallowWolf brings up a good point in the Discord that Ludo just seems to have a gambling addiction. I think that’s what it comes down to.
Laura: Yeah, I think so.
Odds & Ends
Laura: Well, let’s get into some odds and ends. So funny note here: Krum notes that Karkaroff didn’t steer their Durmstrang ship when they came to Hogwarts earlier in the school year, but rather that he stayed in his cabin while the students did all the work. This is when Ron asks, “How are they supposed to steer their ship back to Durmstrang without Karkaroff?” and Krum was like, “We’ll be fine. We got it. He didn’t do anything coming here,” which is on brand. And then, speaking of Krum, Ron asks Krum for an autograph, even though he was clearly jealous that Krum had stolen Hermione away for a private goodbye, so I think this shows Ron growing up a little bit too?
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. Look, once a fan, always a fan, and I think he’s not going to miss that opportunity, possibly for the last time, to ask Krum for an autograph. So I get it, buddy.
Laura: It’s okay. You’ll see him again in a couple of years at your brother’s wedding.
Andrew: Yeah, and you can get another autograph.
[Laura laughs]
MVP of the Week
Andrew: All right, that is the chapter, and now it’s time for MVP of the Week.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to Hermione for cracking the Rita code. I still remember reading this for the first time and being so impressed and so glad that Rita was caught like this. I just couldn’t help but feel a huge swell of pride for Hermione figuring this out, so she gets my MVP.
Micah: I’m going to give it to Dum… no, I’m just kidding.
Andrew: Wow.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: Harry, for just a really… I was taken aback by Harry at the end of this chapter, not only giving his winnings to Fred and George, saying that everyone was going to need a good laugh with what’s to come, but for being an amazing friend and specifically stating that they buy Ron new dress robes as well. I just thought that Harry came through for his friend in that moment.
Laura: Totally. And for a similar reason, I’m going to give mine to Hagrid, because he really came through for Harry in this chapter. Like we talked about, he gave Harry a lot of the fatherly advice that I think Sirius would have also given him if he had time, right? So Hagrid really steps up and shows out for Harry here. I appreciate him.
Micah: We could give Eric’s to Dumbledore, because I think Dumbledore just…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: He did… telling the truth, not being afraid to say what’s actually going on in spite of the Ministry.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: It is the right call, for sure. I think y’all are starting to get a little soft on Dumbledore during this reread. I’m noticing a trend.
Laura: Well, yeah. His days are numbered, so…
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Sure. I’m pretty sure I heard that at the end of Book 3, too. But now you’re like, “MVP of the Week, Dumbledore!”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Well, he does turn his back on Harry for most of Order of the Phoenix, so there’s that.
Andrew: That’s because he’s got a new support circle. He’s got Sirius for a limited time. He’s got Mrs. Diggory. He’s got lots of people.
Laura: Well, I hope you’re ready for that Dumbledore lie count to go through the roof next book.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: All right. Well, speaking of Dumbledore, this is what Micah wanted at the top of this episode: [imitating Dumbledore] “Another book, gone.” Congrats, team. We finished another book in our Chapter by Chapter rereads as we get ready for the Harry Potter TV show. This is why we’re doing this; it’s been the plan all along. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Micah: Last week’s Quizzitch question: What does Harry ask Viktor Krum when they shake hands before going to the Hogwarts Express? And the correct answer is if Durmstrang has a new headmaster yet.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: That’s just when you don’t know what to say in conversation and you say something that’s just really awkward.
Andrew: Yeah. “So, uh…”
Laura: Been there. [laughs]
Micah: Correct answers were submitted by Captain Athena; Buff Daddy; Bort Voldemort; Lloyd the Kiwi; Ravenpuff from Sweden; Empty chair of Igor Karkaroff with sign that says, “I gone Farfaroff”…
[Laura laughs]
Micah: … Where in the world is Count Ravioli… good question. SassyRavenclaw43; Find someone who looks at you the way Ron looks at Viktor Krum…
Laura: True.
Micah: … Jiggly Jane; Who knew the counterjinx was just Unjellify?!; and Elizabeth K.
Andrew: Nobody was wondering where Rita was, but people are wondering where Count Ravioli is. I think that’s really sweet. Has everybody checked their nearest jar? Any bugs trapped in a jar? Any ravioli trapped in a jar? Maybe that’s where the count is.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: All right, next week’s Quizzitch question…
Andrew: [laughs] Without Eric here, I’m adding the banter to make this segment longer.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: With what 2006 movie was the first trailer for Order of the Phoenix released?
Andrew: Ooh!
Micah: I like this question. Of course, you can head on over to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch and submit your answer, and we’ll respond to it in, what, three weeks? [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, we’ll see when our next Quizzitch is. Probably not next week.
Micah: No, you have a little bit of time. It’s probably going to be that Muggle Mail episode.
Andrew: Yeah. This show is brought to you by Muggles like you; we are an independent podcast, but unlike Fred and George, we haven’t been offered Galleons by Harry to run our business, so your support is of the utmost importance. In fact, it is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast 19 years later. So here are the two best ways to help us out: First of all, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, and recent bonus MuggleCast episodes cover the recent theme park announcements out of Universal and the major news concerning the recent Harry Potter illustrated editions. And then for even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold that I just mentioned, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, another new physical gift each year, a video message from one of the four of us, our private Facebook and Discord groups where you can hang out with us and fellow Harry Potter fans, and a whole lot more. Again, we couldn’t do this without you, so thank you for sticking with us over the last 19 years and counting. And if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and also help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and much more about the show. Thanks, everybody, for listening. [imitating Dumbledore] Another book, gone. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye. I’m Andrew. Goodbye. [laughs]
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: [imitating Southern Hagrid] And I’m Hagrid.
Micah: That was good.
Andrew: Oh, thanks.
Micah: Choo-choo.