Transcript #697

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #697, Hey Malfoy You’re So Fine (OOTP Chapter 19, The Lion and the Serpent)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, where we go Chapter by Chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. We’re basically your Harry Potter friends and your weekly ride into the fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, try your best to avoid hitting your Quidditch rival lest you be banned from the sport forever, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.” Plus, we have a little bit of TV show and illustrated edition news, so let’s start with those two news items.


News


Andrew: First of all, we have casting updates concerning Snape and McGonagall: Paapa Essiedu and Janet McTeer are reportedly being signed for the roles of Snape and McGonagall. And we spoke about Paapa previously, when his name first came up as being considered for the role of Snape. Jana McTeer is new, though. She’s appeared in movies like The Menu, which was released in 2022, actually opposite Ralph Fiennes, who played Voldemort in the movies. And she was also in 2016’s Me Before You. But what I know her from is Ozark, the Netflix TV series.

Laura: Same. [laughs]

Andrew: She has an intimidating role on that show. And I was like, “Oh, this is perfect, because she was great in that role, so she can intimidate and boss kids around at Hogwarts.” So A+ there.

Laura: She’s a badass.

Eric: Love to hear that. Absolutely love to hear that.

Andrew: Yeah, so I’m pleased by that. Also – I think now we have to throw this out there for every time we hear about an actor or actress – both these people are English actors. They aren’t Americans.

Eric: Ooh, okay. All right.

Andrew: So any other thoughts on these two? We’ve discussed Paapa a bit previously, like I said.

Eric: Yeah, Snape’s casting in particular does seem to be driving people to the comment boards. I think at this point, really, we just have to see how the story is going to treat that character, because adding race into an already very difficult type character, I want to say problematic and offensive character, may excuse or make some discourse around that character harder to navigate.

Laura: I think the point is, though, you can be any race and be a crappy person. And I think sometimes people kind of miss the potential for a deeper story to be told here, because they’re too afraid of the what ifs. “What if someone has even more charged things to say about Snape because of his race?” Someone who was going to do that was going to find reasons to do it anyway, right? They were going to find some kind of outlet to pour that into, so I don’t know that we need to use that as a reason to not step outside of the box creatively, especially with a story like Harry Potter that I know we were – at least I was – very concerned early on that this show was just going to try and be a repeat of the best hits from the movies, and that it would be too much like the movies and they would just be trying to basically cash in. But what these castings show me, along with John Lithgow, is that they’re intending to tell a different story here, and they’re going to be faithful to the plot and the character arcs of the story we already know, but giving us a different lens to view it through. I’m actually excited by that.

Eric: I keep… in terms of for this particular topic, I go back to what Evalynda said when we talked about this on our mailbag Episode 690, and she said, as a person of color herself, “I actually think that changing his race would add complexity to his character.”

Andrew: The complaints I keep seeing are from people who are merely upset that they’re changing the race of a character.

Laura: There’s a lot of that too.

Andrew: That’s it! That’s it. They think WB is doing it just to cast more people of color in these roles. And we went through this when they cast a woman of color to play Hermione in the Cursed Child; people lost their minds. Then we see the show; it has zero impact on the story, on the character, nothing whatsoever. Looking at the comments on the MuggleCast video that we posted, a couple of people were like, “Oh, Snape can’t be a person of color, because in the book, he’s described as having a pale face on one page.” I’m like, “Are you freaking kidding me?”

Laura: Oh, who cares?

Andrew: Who cares?!

Laura: That’s ridiculous.

Andrew: It’s racist. They just want to complain about a Black person being put on their screens.

Micah: I think it just comes down to finding the best person to portray the role.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And as you just said, even though people initially were up in arms about changing the race of Hermione for Cursed Child, she was fantastic, and I think we’ll find something similar, hopefully, with Paapa Essiedu taking on this role. People are so focused on the color of the person’s skin… has absolutely nothing to do with the character that he or she might be portraying. I think we need to remove that from the conversation here.

Andrew: For this character specifically, yes. Race plays no role in this character.

Laura: And I would be really interested in hearing other people’s opinions on this, but I think it’s… I see a lot of the rhetoric around “Oh no, we can’t put a person of color in this role, because that could lead to all of these negative perceptions that are rooted in race” that, sorry, already exist in the world anyway. But I feel like it also takes away from the perception that a person of color can and should have the acting range to be able to play a role like this and not always be cast as the good guy, because we’re too afraid to say, “Oh yeah, sometimes anyone can be the bad guy. Anyone can be the jerk.”

Andrew: I just want to make the record clear for everybody, everybody who’s upset about this Snape casting, don’t worry; Janet McTeer is a white woman, so we can all rest easy knowing they’re not changing the race of every character.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: All right? So sleep well tonight.

Eric: I’ll say, too, for Snape, the actor is 34, which is wonderful.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Great!

Eric: Wonderful. Spring chicken.

Andrew: [laughs] “Wonderful.”

Micah: Age appropriate.

Eric: Younger than me, by a few years.

Micah: Younger than me.

Laura: Me too.

Eric: I’m very excited.

Micah: Do you think, though, what this is telling us is that they’re going to cast the Marauders also as being age appropriate?

Eric and Laura: Yep.

Eric: Age appropriate. Canon age.

Andrew: Oooh, good call there. Stay with MuggleCast for more Harry Potter TV show coverage as we approach filming, which is slated to kick off this summer. In some other news, we’ve been wondering what is going to happen to the future of the Jim Kay illustrated Harry Potter books because he decided to step down after Book 5 to look out for his mental health. Completely understandable; this was a huge project that he was taking on. Well, this week we have the new illustrator for Books 6 and 7, Levi Pinfold, and he’s actually worked in the world of Harry Potter before. He worked on Bloomsbury’s Hogwarts House editions, which came out over several years, ending in 2021, and he also worked on the Harry Potter Wizarding Almanac, which came out October 2023.

Micah: Does he look like Jim Kay?

Andrew: I don’t know. [laughs] Hopefully, hopefully. We also now have a release date for the Half-Blood Prince illustrated edition. It’s coming out October 2026, so it’s going to be that year’s holiday gift.

Eric: Part one.

Andrew: Keep dreaming, Eric. Keep dreaming.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Half the Half-Blood.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yes, Quarter-Blood Prince.

Andrew: The half Half-Blood Prince. Harry Potter and Half of the Half-Blood Prince. [laughs]

Eric: Sorry, it’s one of my only recurring jokes, so I have to keep saying it.

Andrew: [laughs] You can actually see a preview of his work already on HarryPotter.com. They released his illustration of Harry and Dumbledore looking into the Pensieve, which was beautiful. It looked very similar to Jim Kay’s style, so I think it’s going to be a pretty seamless transition over to Levi Pinfold. Now, here’s something interesting: In the announcement, Jim Kay actually gave his endorsement to Levi Pinfold. He said, “An art director first showed me Levi’s work many years back when I was visiting a publisher. When he pulled open the drawer and I saw this beautiful piece of painting, I was blown away. His work has since then become so important to me, as he’s everything that you could wish for in an illustrator. It’s a huge comfort to know he is working on the Illustrated Editions, for which I’m so grateful, but also as a fan of both Potter and Pinfold, I’m really excited!” Now, the reason I say this is interesting is because when Scholastic announced the new illustrators for the MinaLima editions, there was no endorsement from MinaLima saying, “We’re so excited about the new illustration team.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Oh, you shoot-stirrer.

Andrew: Awkward.

Eric: Yeah. No, but this is the way that you would imagine that they should be doing this with a successor. Good-natured passing of the baton. If this sort of thing has to happen, that’s what you want to see.

Andrew: Jim Kay decided himself to step down. It seems like MinaLima wanted to continue on the project, but there was some sort of rift between them and Scholastic. That’s our speculation, in any way. Allegedly.

Micah: Levi’s got a little bit of Sirius Black going for him here.

Andrew: Yeah?

Micah: In this photo, it looks like.

Andrew: Do you think he could play Sirius in the Harry Potter TV show?

Micah: Why not?

Andrew: All right. [laughs]

Eric: That would be cool.

Andrew: Let him know.

Eric: Let’s start casting people who’ve worked on the previous series, but as actors.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Mary Grand-Pré for Madam Hooch.

Eric: Yes!

Micah: I can see that, actually.

Andrew: [laughs] I was going to say McGonagall, but that role is taken now.

Micah: Supposedly. She can still sneak in.

Andrew: Well, as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show and other news in the Wizarding World, we would really appreciate your financial support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By becoming a member of our Patreon, you’re helping us conjure up episodes of this indie show, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like bonus MuggleCast episodes; we release two of those every month. You’ll also get access to our livestreams, our planning docs, ad-free episodes of the show, access to our Discord and Facebook groups, and so much more, so check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And without further ado, let’s get into Chapter by Chapter. And this week, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.”

Eric: Yes, yes, yes. Well, Andrew, we last discussed Chapter 19 on Episode 455 of MuggleCast, called “How to Hogwarts.” That debuted March 3 of 2020, and here is a fascinating clip from our chapter discussion.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 455.

Eric: Harry’s only recourse is to catch the Snitch fast, and so he does. But Crabbe shoots a Bludger at him, hits him in the small of the back. Have you guys…? The small of the back is where all the nerves meet, and….

Micah: That hurts like a you-know-what if you ever get hit there.

Eric: Have you ever been injured there, Micah?

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I’ve also gotten kicked during karate, like right in the kidneys…

Laura: Oof.

Micah: … and you have to gasp for air. But yeah, if you ever get hit in the small of the back…

Andrew: You did karate? I didn’t know that.

Micah: Yeah, man. Watch out.

Eric: Watch out. [laughs]

Andrew: I won’t mess with you.

[Micah laughs]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: I just had that same reaction listening to that clip. Micah did karate? Totally forgot.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I did.

Eric: I saved it from repeating by letting us all know at the outset. So since that episode aired five years ago, I’ve been giving Micah a wide berth. I don’t know if you noticed that, Micah.

Andrew: Good call.

Micah: Thank you. But it does hurt, for those who have not experienced it.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I’ll just reiterate that fact. You definitely do gasp for air because you’re getting hit in some of your most important organs.

Eric: It’s never a good thing.

Micah: It isn’t.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: But what is a good thing is that Harry is flying high after his first Dumbledore’s Army lesson, but it is short-lived, unfortunately, as most things are for Harry in this series, and we find out that it is becoming very challenging to schedule these Dumbledore’s Army meetings because everyone has competing priorities, right? It’s like when we try and schedule a MuggleCast.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There’s so many other things going on in people’s lives that it’s just tough for us to find a time to sit down and record.

Eric: Right, we barely all made it on this week.

Micah: It is true. We need Hermione’s solution, which I really enjoyed reading because it positions her as potentially being a Ravenclaw or having some very strong Ravenclaw qualities, because when she shares that she used a Protean Charm on the Dumbledore’s Army coins, Terry Boot, who is in Ravenclaw, asks why she wasn’t placed there, and Hermione says that the Sorting Hat considered it, but ultimately placed her into Gryffindor. So I’m curious why did the Sorting Hat opt for Gryffindor instead? And I think it’d be fun to make the case for her being in Ravenclaw.

Andrew: Well, I think she’s proven herself at this point to be a brave person, so I think maybe that comes into play. The Sorting Hat was thinking about… saw bravery in her. I don’t know if she exhibited cases of bravery in the past.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, it’s very easy to say because she reads a lot that she’d make a great Ravenclaw, but I seem to recall some discussion throughout the years being that perhaps Sorting is based on what your values are, more than what your personality is strictly. So what she says to Harry in Book 1, “Books and cleverness; there are greater things,” really shows that her values align with the traits that Gryffindors are known for. So maybe that’s it, why she was placed by the hat in there.

Laura: Yeah. I do find it interesting that she notes that the hat picked Gryffindor ultimately, and that it wasn’t her choice, because Harry got to choose.

Eric: Well, he’s the chosen… choosing one.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but wasn’t it determined that in a Hatstall situation, you get to choose?

Eric: I think that’s right.

Andrew: At what level do you hit Hatstall, though?

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I mean, if the Sorting Hat is just going back and forth, like, “Eenie, meeny, miny, mo… I don’t know.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I think the Sorting Hat has to declare Hatstall, and that’s when you get to pick.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a bell or a whistle that nobody hears that comes out once every couple of years.

Laura: Is that canon?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t think that’s canon.

Andrew: I don’t know if that’s canon, but I could see Hermione just sitting there and waiting for the hat to decide, rather than trying to influence the Sorting Hat like Harry did.

Eric: Well, a Hatstall is very much a Pottermore thing anyway, so it happened post-seven books, even though we learn about other characters that were supposedly Hatstalls historically. Yeah, I think it is canon now, though, that everyone gets the same type of long conversation that Harry had with the hat. [laughs] Where you hear his internal thoughts, “Better be Gryffindor!”

Andrew: [laughs] A six-hour Sorting ceremony for 50 students.

Eric: “You’ve got courage, you’ve got a strong mind…”

Andrew: Oh, that would be so boring, though, if you have to sit there and wait for the hat to deliberate through all these people.

Eric: That’s literally what Hermione… it sounds like the hat did that for her.

Andrew: Oh, painful. It’d be one thing if you could hear the hat deliberating, like everybody else in the Great Hall could hear the hat deliberating, but they can’t, right? That’s more of a movie-ism.

Laura: That would be mortifying if they could. Can you imagine?

Andrew: [laughs] “And you once picked your nose, which suggests you are…”

Eric: “HUFFLEPUFF!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Hey, look, it’s okay if Hufflepuffs say it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That hat is so dirty, too, the longer it stays on your head.

Eric: I bet the hat appreciated Hermione’s clean teeth.

Micah: Oh, maybe.

Eric: I don’t know why.

Andrew: Good personal hygiene.

Micah: I do think there’s a certain amount of bravery, too, in the fact that she is a Muggle-born coming to Hogwarts…

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Absolutely.

Micah: … and she doesn’t make any apologies for it. She’s also not hesitant at all about confronting those who may throw insults her way, so I can understand why she was initially put into Gryffindor, but clearly the hat detected her intellect as well. I was curious, though, if she was placed into Ravenclaw, would she have a different opinion of Luna?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Luna is Ginny’s year so would have been one year younger, but still would have spent a decent amount of time with her, and maybe wouldn’t be so confrontational.

Eric: That’s interesting, because Hermione and Luna are still such different characters. To me, either Luna would grow on Hermione, or I can actually see it going the other way. She could think of Luna the way that Harry still thinks of Colin Creevey, like “That weird kid who’s younger than me and always following me around.” I can see Hermione, even if she were a Ravenclaw, avoiding Luna at all costs, because Luna does not represent the textbook, traditional version of Ravenclaw that you would read about. She’s a much different, interesting kind of Ravenclaw.

Laura: You know, though, I kind of feel like Luna is an outcast in her own House, so I actually think Hermione would probably treat her just about the same, because it seems like that’s how the rest of Ravenclaw treats her. They hide her things from her. Why? They all think she’s weird too.

Andrew: All it would take, though, is one bonding moment in the common room for Hermione to change her opinion on Luna. I have to also think that by being in the same House, Hermione would inherently be a little bit nicer. Not to say that Hermione is always nice to Gryffindors; thinking of feuds with Ron first and foremost, but Seamus or Lavender…

Eric: Well, Ron deserves it, but you have a good point.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I just think there would be a bit of an advantage there for Luna if they were in a House together. Hermione maybe might think, “Oh, how crazy could she be if we got Sorted into the same House?”

Eric: By year five, Hermione will have exhausted all the Ravenclaws’ books, and she’d be looking for more books, and then she’s going to find The Quibbler and Luna is going to give her all the back issues.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: We keep talking about Luna as the outcast, but Hermione may very well have been an outcast as well.

Eric: She nearly was, yeah.

Micah: Just because of how smart she is; I’m not sure how likely fellow Ravenclaws would take to her within her own year. We know that obviously she becomes very good friends with Ron and Harry, but what’s the likelihood that she would have formed those types of friendships with others in Ravenclaw? It’s hard to say.

Eric: I think the fact that she’s in Gryffindor actually brings out that social aspect of her, and that’s a good thing for Hermione’s character, because you can retreat into a book, and I think growing up in Ravenclaw would probably encourage her in some ways to do that and put always academics and learning first. Being in Gryffindor and having to navigate the friendship with Ron and Harry in the earliest months of year one really formed that more social and therefore socially responsible aspect of Hermione’s character.

Laura: Eric, you said something earlier that I really loved about how how we’re Sorted is really based more on values.

Eric: I wish I could remember where I last heard that.

Micah: I said it. I’m just kidding.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I mean, you might have. I’m not sure.

Micah: No, I don’t think so.

Laura: But what I love about it is we see in Hermione and Luna two very different representations of what a Ravenclaw could be, which suggests that very holistic values-based approach to Sorting. So to me, it feels like Luna by virtue of her intellectual openness to learning new things and to giving new concepts a chance and not immediately writing them off, that’s a very important kind of intelligence, so I would assert that that’s probably the reason that Luna ends up in Ravenclaw. Whereas if Hermione had ended up there, I think it would have been more of that stereotypical bookish, highly academic, competitive spirit that would have landed her there. So I just think it’s so interesting that you can have two characters who represent the same values, just in very different ways.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Micah: And speaking of the coins that Hermione does charm, she mentions that she draws inspiration for them from the Dark Mark tattoos that Lord Voldemort uses for his Death Eaters, so is this an example of something good coming from something evil?

Eric: Yes. Yeah, and it shows that certain magic is maybe value neutral, or can be at least accessed by both sides.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And I think we see examples across the series of Hermione’s bad side poking out from time to time, getting a little mischievous where maybe you wouldn’t expect.

Micah: Naughty.

Andrew: Yeah, I was thinking that word; I didn’t want to use it. [laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Micah: Well, I mean, we’re not into Half-Blood Prince just yet.

Andrew: [laughs] But I do think she has her moments where she’s more inclined to break the rules, and she’s not breaking the rules here, but she’s letting her dark side come out in this moment. And if the Death Eaters have come up with a good communication system with the Dark Mark, why not use it on the good side too?

Laura: Yeah. And honestly, there are very, very many historical examples of this happening in secret societies both on the light and dark side of history communicating through coded messages and very ingenious contraptions that are used to communicate, so this is another example of something in Harry Potter that’s kind of lifted straight out of reality.

Micah: Let’s not forget, though, that the Order also has a way of communicating. It’s not by physically branding their members, but they do use a Patronus to communicate, which we’ll find out a little bit later on. So it’s actually really impressive on the part of Hermione that she thinks about creating a way that all of them can communicate, but in a way that really no one would notice.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: I think that’s what’s so great about this, is… I know there’s jokes about Ron and the fact that he actually has money, and so that in and of itself may surprise some people, but just the fact that, yeah, most people have change in their pockets, or at least they did back in the ’90s. We all have credit cards now, I know, so…

Eric: In this economy? Oh, that’s where you were going with that, okay.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: But let’s talk about this whole coin idea in particular.

Micah: You don’t like it.

Andrew: I don’t like it, because…

Eric: What?

Andrew: This is what’s buggin’ me this week.

Micah: Oh, what’s buggin’ Andrew?

Andrew: Not buggin’ Micah; it’s what’s buggin’ Andrew. A coin is so easy to lose, and I’m not saying that somebody would find it and then figure out the hidden date and time on the coin, but we’ve all been there where we’ve left something in our pocket, and maybe we pull something else out of our pocket, and then that coin falls out along with it, a $5 bill falls out along with it, and then it’s lost. It might go through the wash. A coin is just so small and easy to lose. I don’t think it’s the best item to use.

Laura: I would lose it instantly.

Eric: Oh man, give yourself some credit.

Laura: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Look, if Neville doesn’t lose his, then it’s not an easy item to lose.

Andrew: That is shocking. Maybe Hermione put some glue on his so it won’t leave his pocket.

Eric: [laughs] There’s a little string on his…

Andrew: A little string, yeah.

Micah: So the big focal point of this chapter is really the Gryffindor versus Slytherin Quidditch match and all that it entails, and this is Ron’s first big go at being Keeper on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and he is really anxious about this match, so much so that he won’t touch breakfast, which for Ron, we all know…

Eric: Oh.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Boy likes to eat, right? So something’s wrong with him if he won’t even touch food, but I feel like we’ve all been in his shoes before, right?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Anxiety can be crippling under any circumstance. Doesn’t have to just be pertaining to performing in a big sporting event; it can be literally anything. And I felt for Ron in this moment. Anybody else?

Andrew: Oh, yeah, me too. Going into maybe a big presentation, a job interview, a date, maybe even a family event… anxiety comes up in a lot of different ways that can cripple you and might even prevent you from eating. Even just a busy work day. I was very busy yesterday; by 3:00 p.m., I was like, “Wow, I haven’t eaten anything yet today.”

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, it’s just amplified by the fact that he’s not quite ready yet.

Micah: No.

Laura: We’ve seen Ron kind of struggling at practices, and he gets there eventually, as we know, but at this point in time he’s not ready, and he knows he’s not ready, so that just makes it so much worse.

Micah: Yeah, and it is interesting to see how Harry reacts, because another big piece of this is the fact that on top of Ron being very anxious about this Quidditch match, he’s being taunted; he’s being teased by Slytherin. And Harry has had this experience since he started at Hogwarts, so this is nothing new to him; he can pretty much shrug it off, and he actually throws it back in their face at one point in this chapter. But it is interesting to see the different dynamic, where you have Harry, who’s been through this for a number of years and really doesn’t let it shake him, versus Ron, who this is his first matchup, and it’s clearly having an impact on him.

Andrew: And it’s not just playing Quidditch, merely. I mean, there’s multiple layers here. He’s playing Quidditch against Slytherin, who he hates. He’s playing with his teammates, who he wants to impress. He’s playing basically on a stage in front of the rest of the school; performing in front of other people is nerve-wracking in and of itself. But then you’re also trying to score a win for Gryffindor, and it’s your first game, and you’re not too confident in your skills. There’s a lot here to stress you out.

Eric: Your brothers are on the team. Also, if we go back to Mirror of Erised, Ron’s deepest desire of his heart was to be successful at Quidditch.

Andrew: And now he has to prove it to himself.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: That’s such a great point.

Eric: He has to prove he deserves it. But he’s definitely haggard, too… well, Hagrid is back later on.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But also, Ron is very haggard, and I kind of have a joke reading this. Ron just looks deathly ill, and I kind of joked that after he’s in his head this whole chapter, after he goes for his long walk, he should be able to see Thestrals.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because he’s looked at the face of death. Literally this whole chapter he’s just terrified, terror-stricken, stricken about his performance, so we’ll have to see if that’s canon.

Micah: I do think that can demonstrate how impactful anxiety can be on somebody, even in a situation like this, where we would look at as readers and say, “Oh, in the grand scheme of things, that’s not that big of a deal.” But for a 15-year-old who, as was described, is trying to really go out there and impress his peers and not mess up in front of the entire school against presumably your House’s biggest rival, that’s a lot to put on the shoulders of somebody like Ron, and I’m sure if I was in his shoes, I would be going through the exact same emotions.

Andrew: I agree.

Micah: Now let’s have a little bit of a debate about what falls into the gamesmanship category versus what falls into the bullying category, because there’s quite a bit that goes on during this match, and I’m curious, where do we feel the line gets crossed? Or do we feel like Draco is acting within reason? Now, for me, I would argue that the psychological component of this is masterful on the part of Draco; he’s getting inside of the head of the newest Gryffindor team member, who, outside of Harry, has arguably the most important job on the team, because if Ron can’t protect the goal, that’s a major problem. So I actually don’t see Draco doing anything wrong within the context of the match itself, because in sports, you do see opposing teams’ fans wearing, saying, chanting, all sorts of antagonizing things, so it comes down to where we all feel the line is.

Andrew: Well, maybe it is a failure of Hogwarts and the rules around Quidditch to have allowed this rather than blaming it on Draco, but I think it’s different in this situation. It is inappropriate because they are kids, and “Weasley” is specifically in this song. They are targeting one particular person with this song. It’s just very direct.

Eric: Right, this isn’t “Oh, Gryffindor is going to get crushed…”

Andrew: Right, right.

Eric: ” … they can’t find their ass with a shovel…”

Andrew: Or Micah will appreciate this: I watch football games these days, and when a team is really losing, you start hearing them go, “Ohhh…” The joke, or the implication, is that it’s over for the losing team. So if they were doing something like that…

Eric: I never knew what that meant!

Andrew: Yeah, I think I have that right.

Eric: Oh, God.

Laura: Yeah, that’s the thing. When it’s collective ribbing, I think that’s acceptable. If it’s like, “Oh, boo Gryffindor, you guys suck,” kind of like what was said before, that’s one thing. But to specifically target one student like that, not okay. I mean, they’re not athletes making the big bucks.

Andrew: No.

Laura: When they’re out there raking their money in, they’re probably going to have thicker skin to be able to take it, but not right now. It’s not appropriate.

Andrew: And it’s his first game.

Eric: I just think it’s really interesting how extra this is, how much trouble Draco went through to execute this entire thing. He had to write a song. He had to teach it to the other Slytherins. I imagine late nights in common rooms; he’s like, “No!” And he has to play teacher…

Andrew: [laughs] “And a-one, two, three, four…”

Eric: Yeah, yeah, and he has little badges made for everybody. I think Draco cares for Ron. I don’t know.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He puts a lot of thought and time and effort into destroying him.

Andrew: Got a hate crush on him?

Eric: It’s something. If you really look at it, this is all designed to deflect from Draco’s own inadequacies, his own Quidditch inadequacies.

Micah: I was just going to say that. It’s clear his talents lay elsewhere from the Quidditch pitch, because he is not good as a Seeker.

Eric: Right. No, he can’t face off against… he’s never won a match against Harry.

Micah: At least against Harry. I don’t know what his success rate is against the other Houses.

Eric: Yeah, I assume he caught a Snitch once or twice. Broken clock and all that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But he’s never won against Harry, and so instead, he’s going to focus on being as mean as possible, or giving his team an advantage, not by being the best Seeker, but by demoralizing the other team’s Keeper, and allowing his team to score, so it’s all a big smoke screen, so that everyone’s talking about Ron and nobody’s talking about him.

Micah: I also think, though, that Draco may be looking at the larger picture here, and we’ll talk a little bit about this when we get to him antagonizing the Weasley twins and Harry after the match is over, but he’s very good at knowing what he can get away with, and he knows that these pins that he creates – we saw an iteration of them in Goblet of Fire – that’s probably not crossing the line. The song, there’s probably different verses you could pull out, or different lines that you can pull out that do cross the line. But overall, within the grand scheme of an actual sporting event going on, and the fact that you have the entire Slytherin section singing it, he likely can get away with that, and he’s not the one that is conducting it, right? Isn’t it Pansy, at the end of the day, that is doing it?

Eric: It’s Pansy, yeah.

Micah: So it doesn’t actually fall on his shoulders. And I think his ultimate goal in all of this is to try and get the Gryffindor Quidditch team banned, to try and get Harry banned, because he knows that if they’re out of the picture, even if they lose this match, the likelihood of Slytherin being able to win at the end of the year is much greater.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And he’s right. I mean, it works in terms of getting Harry banned.

Laura: I also would not be surprised if Umbridge had her hands in this as well and kind of put Draco up to it.

Micah: Those sausage fingers.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: She’s the Kermit meme. “Do it.”

Eric and Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: [imitating Umbridge] “Do it! Hem-hem!”

Eric: Well, that’s an interesting point because she does… we keep getting confirmation that she really has it out for the Gryffindor Quidditch team.

Andrew: And she’s wearing Slytherin green, right?

Micah: She is.

Eric: Yeah, it makes her look even more like a toad.

Micah: Now, it was her House, as we know.

Laura: But to be honest, I think both Umbridge and Draco wanted Harry not to be able to play Quidditch for maybe different reasons, but they both wanted it.

Eric: Sometimes the odds are too great.

Laura: Yeah. It just feels like, especially knowing how close they do get over the course of this book with the Inquisitorial Squad and everything, I just feel like she was orchestrating some of that.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised. Let’s not forget what she does at the very beginning of the book, right?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Preemptive strike.

Micah: This would not be something that I would put past her at all. But one thing that I did notice when I was going through this chapter, and it was kind of in the back of my head because I remember it getting brought up that Quidditch in particular was very challenging for the author to write. I enjoyed reading it in this chapter, but I could understand why it would be a challenge. And so I was curious if the rest of you felt that way. Do you think it doesn’t come across well? Or can it only be in one instance in one book?

Eric: For me, it always works. It always works. I always like reading it. I understand how, from a writing standpoint, it can be difficult to diversify and make a different… make a match really stand out. But I have no notes whatsoever about how Quidditch is executed throughout the entire book series. I just really like it.

Andrew: For me, I just… look, I enjoy Quidditch. I think it’s cool. It’s exciting; it’s fun. I do skim through the Quidditch scenes. I’m looking out for some key details, but I’m kind of moving through it faster than I’m reading the rest of the chapter, just because it is fast-moving and a little hard for me to follow. And what am I getting out of it, really? Quidditch match.

Micah: Sports, bro.

Andrew: Sport… oh, yeah. “Ohhh…” I should be singing that while reading.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Maybe that’ll make it more interesting to me. No, but I just need to know who wins and if anything pivotal happens.

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: So that’s my thing; I love reading Quidditch when there’s some kind of focal point that has to do with the greater story also happening during Quidditch, like “Weasley Is Our King.” This is a great chapter. Also Dementors, for example, in Prisoner of Azkaban. But I’ll be honest, if it’s simply a Quidditch match that has no defining story arc moment apart from Gryffindor won or Gryffindor lost, I don’t care as much about those. I think it comes across, especially the later you get in the series, how much she did not enjoy writing these scenes, so it comes across in the way you read too. Also, Quidditch as a sport really doesn’t make a lot of sense; that’s why they had to adjust it for Quidditch Champions that came out last year.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: They had to kind of balance the rules, because Quidditch, when you really think about it – and Micah, you probably know better than anyone else here – there’s a lot about it that doesn’t make a lot of sense. [laughs]

Micah: I do like what you’re saying, though, because if you look to the last book, yeah, we get the Quidditch World Cup, but that’s it. She basically writes Quidditch out of the rest of Goblet of Fire, because there’s the Triwizard Tournament, so that’s a convenient loophole for her to not have to write about Quidditch. But you would anticipate that she would, though, right? Because they have one of the best-known Quidditch players in the world in Viktor Krum at Hogwarts, but yet we only get him in the first couple of chapters of Goblet of Fire. And then Order of the Phoenix, Harry gets banned from Quidditch, so that helps to not have him involved. Obviously, Ron is, but yeah, it’s interesting. But it’s cool that there was a sport that was invented and that we do get the chance to read it.

Andrew: [laughs] Fair enough.

Micah: Yeah, it’s no Gobstones, but it’s something. Let’s not forget there was an entire college sport that was created out of Quidditch. One of the challenges for Harry in this match is not Slytherin; it’s Ron and his performance, and Harry’s performance actually starts to be affected because of Ron’s struggles throughout the course of this match. And of course, it is lucky at the end of the day that Harry ends up catching the Snitch, but it does show you how one teammate’s performance or lack thereof can have an impact on another, especially when that person is one of your closest friends.

Andrew: Yeah, he naturally wants to look out for Ron, but what’s funny about this is that if Harry actually kept his eye on the ball – or the Snitch – he may have been able to end the game faster, meaning he would end Ron’s suffering faster as well.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: But by just staring at Ron and getting focused on this chant, he’s slowing down the potential end of the match and letting Slytherin win, potentially!

Eric: Eh, you see it when you see it.

Laura: You know what I think is funny? I wonder if Ron was kind of doing the same thing and focusing on Harry, being like, “Please catch the Snitch, man. Just end this.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Shoo! Go! Go look for it!”

Eric: It’s sad to see, honestly, because the first one that gets in, the first goal that gets in was right through the middle hoop, and from what little I’ve played of Quidditch Champions, I know that the middle hoop is the easiest one to defend, so that’s a low blow. And in general, just… Ron is dealing with everything. He’s overwhelmed.

Micah: Laura, you have a real world analogy for us.

Laura: Oh, yeah. So yeah, clearly Harry, I guess, hasn’t heard a pre-flight safety instruction video. “Put your oxygen mask on before helping others.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Harry, what are you doing? You can’t help him. There’s nothing you can do for him right now.

Eric: Yeah. Well, it’s the Beaters’ job, right? To get… if you have a weak Keeper, you have to weaken the opposing team’s Chasers, and the way you do that is with Bludgers. So there are teammates that can help Ron, but Harry is not one of them.

Laura: Yeah, they’re his brothers. [laughs]

Eric: But the problem here is that Harry just is so hurt by the fact that this is happening to his friend, and I don’t think he can believe how extra it all is either.

Laura: Yeah, it’s pretty ridiculous.

Eric: Yeah. The one line that doesn’t work for me, by the way, in the whole chant is “Weasley was born in a bin.” That, to me, is a bit extra. That is just particularly low classism. It’s not what you would find in an average school chant. It’s not the line you want all the students repeating and repeating and repeating. I think it should be off the table.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It does feel very ’90s teen melodrama to me, though.

Andrew: The song on a whole, or just the line?

Micah: The line.

Eric: “Weasley was born in a bin”?

Micah: No, I mean the song too. It’s not out of place. I agree with you; it is extra, and it’s certainly not something that should be said.

Eric: I mean, they could’ve said…

Micah: But look, there are adults present that could have…

Eric: Stopped it? Yeah.

Micah: … stopped it, and none of them chose to. I mean, presumably the entire staff is present, right?

Eric: Honestly, yeah. The lack of action from any of the adults that entire match is deafening.

Laura: Yeah, well, I mean, how Umbridge reacts here in the next few pages, we’re going to cover…

Micah: She was probably singing.

Laura: Yeah, that’s the funny thing. This whole, I mean, bullying session was happening in front of the entire school and she said nothing, but she’s going to lose her mind over someone defending his mother’s honor.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Right. All right, well, as Laura alluded to earlier, usually there are bigger plot points to these Quidditch matches than just the matches themselves, and boy, do we get a showdown post-Gryffindor/Slytherin between Draco, George, and Harry, and Draco really uses the opportunity to verbally assault Molly and Arthur. He calls Molly fat and ugly, he calls Arthur a useless loser, and he talks about the Burrow, the fact that it stinks, and perhaps Harry doesn’t notice that the Burrow stinks because Harry’s mother’s house stank as well.

Eric: The implication being because she’s Muggle-born.

Micah: Exactly. Now, that’s the straw that breaks the camel’s back, because there’s a lot of restraint that’s happening prior to this, but once that line gets delivered, all bets are off. And honestly, we’re talking about teenagers, so as much as they may want to restrain themselves or have their friends restrain them, at some point, stuff’s going to go down, right?

Andrew: Yeah, we even see this in adult sporting events – hockey, football – these guys can’t control their tempers, and they start fighting, which I always find so immature when you’re getting paid. But like we were talking about earlier, you shouldn’t have to put up with this type of thing. You shouldn’t have to put up with this type of taunting when you’re a student just doing this for fun. And of course, these things that Draco says are really awful.

Eric: Yeah, they have no place in the kind of world in which good people live. You can make the case, “Oh, it’s talk, whatever,” but Malfoy, who is an extremely privileged individual, he’s saying all this with impunity. He’s saying all this with absolutely no repercussions coming his way. And I think it would inspire any reasonable person’s attempt at fighting for the honor of the people that he continues to slight and to really put him in his place. It needs to happen. He’s just going to keep behaving this way because he’s been allowed full reign to do so up until this point.

Micah: Yeah, he really has.

Laura: I feel like… and I think I’ve said this before. I’m never an advocate for violence; I think it’s wrong. However, there are some people like Draco who have never been on the receiving end of someone’s physical reaction to their BS, and it shows. People who have never faced the consequences for running off at the mouth about things they shouldn’t be doing usually end up finding out. Draco has not found out yet.

Andrew: But the thing that gets me about this, and the reason I’m not okay with Harry physically fighting Draco, is because McGonagall has told him twice now to not give Umbridge any excuses to punish him. And I know tempers are high, but he needs to keep that in mind, or else he’s going to get in trouble again in front of the whole school.

Laura: [sighs] Yeah, but I’m just thinking about the fact that these are teenagers and their mothers are being insulted by someone who has sour grapes that they just lost a game, right?

Andrew: So how about just returning his verbal attacks with your own verbal attacks? Why get physical?

Laura: Sure, I fully agree with you, and I think if someone were talking smack about my mom to me today, at 36 years old, I think I’m a little more equipped to deal with that in a more rational way. But when you’re a teenager, and your hormones are all over the place and tensions are high… I’m not saying it’s right, but it makes total sense that it happened.

Eric: I think if a 15-year-old insulted my mom today, I would still hit them.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I would be like, “You’re an immature, stupid brat; I’m ignoring you,” I think. Around the neighborhood you see kids say stupid stuff. You just let it go.

Eric: You want to believe that you’d be above it, but Draco just knows how to push the buttons. That’s why he does it.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ll give him credit for that.

Micah: And Laura, you said you wouldn’t be surprised if somebody in particular instigated this, or maybe planted the seed inside of Draco’s head.

Laura: Totally. I think it makes a lot of sense; they have a shared goal, right? And we already know that Draco is predisposed to saddling up to whoever’s going to make Harry’s life more difficult. Think about Rita Skeeter last year. Draco is still very much operating under the mentality of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” He doesn’t see Umbridge for the danger she presents at this point because the consequences haven’t really reared their ugly head yet. They will in a couple years.

Eric: Right, she’s punishing the right people for him to please him.

Laura: Yep. And I mean, again, she’s Undersecretary to Fudge. Fudge is in Lucius’s pocket. It’s really easy to connect the dots. I’m like Charlie Day over here with my yarn board.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: We should get you a yarn board that you can put up behind you.

Laura: I would.

Micah: Connecting those threads.

Laura: I would do it. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, so I guess we never get a proper handshake line after the Quidditch match, which usually happens in most sports; not all of them, but that is usually a pleasantry that’s observed by teams afterwards, but not in this case.

Eric: When I was in tee-ball, all the kids would try and squeeze the hands as hard as possible.

Andrew: Yeah, be a fun way to tease each other.

Micah: And let’s not forget, Harry is also… we played the Time-Turner segment earlier; he’s coming off of getting hit in the small of the back with a Bludger after the match was over. And we’re going to talk about punishment and how it is doled out on the part of one Dolores Umbridge, but somebody else is ready to dole out some punishment for Harry and George, and it’s McGonagall.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She is not happy at all with these two, and she’s ready to give them a week’s worth of detention, but not under Umbridge’s watch, because Dolores is about to enter the room and flex her authority muscle. She’s passed a new Educational Decree giving her authority to do so, and as if the end of the Quidditch match wasn’t deflating enough, now we have to watch Umbridge dole out her punishment to George, Harry, and Fred, by the way, and we’ll talk about that, because that’s just BS.

Andrew: Eh.

Micah: No, you don’t think so? Well, we’ll get to it. But one thing that I found really interesting was that we learn in this chapter that Umbridge was planning to not allow the Gryffindor Quidditch team to reform in the first place, and McGonagall went over her head to Dumbledore and got that all sorted out. Now, I mean, I know why, but it’s really not fair.

Andrew: No, it’s not fair.

Micah: And what reasoning do you have? [laughs]

Andrew: And I’m glad McGonagall and Dumbledore worked together to fix the situation, and I wanted to highlight that they did fix the situation behind the scenes! And I just wanted to point this out because this underscores a previous point I think I’ve made in recent weeks, that Dumbledore is doing stuff behind the scenes. He’s not sitting there twiddling his thumbs in his office, doing absolutely nothing.

Eric: I think he’s mostly doing that. I think he’s mostly twiddling his thumbs, then occasionally somebody is loud enough that he has to pay attention.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: I think his hands are tied to some extent, though, in all of this. I mean, we all know he’s a very smart man; I think he’s very cautious in terms of playing his hand.

Andrew: Yeah, and he doesn’t want to rock the boat too much.

Eric: He’s absolutely… yes, he is a “Pick your battles” kind of guy, for sure. It just shows what’s really going on here, blatant favoritism, blatant sabotaging of the people that Umbridge doesn’t like are getting punished. And Dumbledore, much like he did with Harry’s trial, showed up, said his bit, and proved that Umbridge did not have a leg to stand on, and it’s only the last time because now there’s an Educational Decree giving Umbridge the authority that she did not have earlier when she tried to not reinstate Gryffindor. So it’s a real shame, because essentially she made Dumbledore get involved about this small thing, and it actually ended up pointing… she credits McGonagall with pointing out to her how deficient her power was before, so what are you going to do?

Micah: I don’t know.

Laura: Yeah, well, and that’s her thing, right? It’s like she comes up against one barrier, “Oh, I’m not allowed to do that here? Okay, let me just go pass another Educational Decree and we’ll fix that.” I mean, that’s the approach.

Micah: And the consequence in all of this is not just detention; it’s a lifetime ban from playing Quidditch at Hogwarts, which seems so extreme. [laughs] And the reason why I said this is this is a physical altercation following a sporting event where Beaters and Bludgers are a real thing.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And Andrew, you said this before: Fights happen in sports all the time. I think suspension, sure. Detention, okay. But banning them for life? I couldn’t even probably point to a situation in sports where that’s happened.

Andrew: Does the wizarding world…? I guess they do; they have a judicial branch. I feel like this is one of those things that if it got challenged in the court, it wouldn’t actually pass. And the reason I say this is because… lifetime ban from an Educational Decree? When Harry leaves Hogwarts, he’s still banned from Quidditch? Is that what we’re made to believe here? [laughs]

Eric: Look, the punishment has to fit the crime! It has to be a proportional response. She absolutely cannot affect post-academic career. In Umbridge’s capacity as High Inquisitor of Hogwarts, she can’t touch Harry after he leaves Hogwarts. She can’t do it, at the very least.

Laura: Right, but she wants to make it a lifetime ban so that he can never come back as an adult and play Quidditch there. [laughs]

Andrew: And I think just from a storytelling perspective, the extreme decision here, a lifetime ban is meant to just be emblematic of how powerful Umbridge thinks she is. She is all knowing. She is all powerful. She can do anything, including lifetime bans from anything.

Micah: But she’s picking on students at the end of the day. That’s what’s so comical about all this. She thinks she has all this power, and I guess in a way she does, but she’s getting her highs off of making students’ lives miserable, kids’ lives miserable.

Eric: Well, she doesn’t have a lot of maturity. That’s just where she is.

Laura: No. I mean, it’s clear she’s a miserable person. I mean, if you make your entire life’s mission about making other people’s lives miserable, there’s probably something to that. Call is coming from inside the house.

Micah: Yeah, she could use something, but we won’t talk about that.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Fred. Fred also receives a lifetime ban, though he did not participate.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: You can’t… look, and he even…

Micah: Is she afraid that he’s going to try and switch places with George?

Andrew: Ooh, actually, that’s a great theory. That makes sense.

Eric: Oh, I love that. That’s even worse! Legally, from a legal perspective, if he didn’t do the crime, he can’t do the time!

Andrew: Yeah, but see, Umbridge is right. He is going to do some sort of crime next Quidditch game to get back at her banning George.

Eric: Oh, you can’t… but even if that were true, you can’t imprison people before they do the crime!

Andrew: I’m with Umbridge here. Fred absolutely would have retaliated in some way at the next Quidditch game, if not sooner.

Eric: He says as much.

Andrew: And by pre-banning, let’s call it, Fred from Quidditch for life as well, this gets ahead of the issue and keeps him behaving better than he would otherwise, because maybe there’s a part of Fred and George and Harry that think, “Well, if I stay on their good side for X amount of time, she’ll un-ban us from Quidditch.”

Eric: This is as bad a call as putting all the Slytherins in the dungeons.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Absolutely meritless behavior, prejudiced and just not at all within reason.

Andrew: She’s doing them a favor, though, because by being banned from Quidditch, now they have time to work on their business.

Eric: Now they can try and make her life more miserable.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Malicious compliance.

Micah: Well, I do want to talk about that in just a minute, but let’s talk about Crabbe for a second, because when we’re talking about punishing students for things that they did during – actually, not even during – after this match was over, Crabbe only ends up receiving lines for assaulting Harry with a Bludger after the match was over, so it’s very clear how punishment is being distributed here.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Because if I were McGonagall, I would have strongly advocated that if Harry, Fred, and George are being banned, Crabbe should be as well.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: No reason why he should not have received the same punishment.

Eric: But the newest Educational Decree makes it so that Umbridge, who has the supreme authority, doesn’t ever need to be challenged on these wrong calls. She doesn’t ever need to come up with some kind of rubric for how a more extreme behavior warrants a more extreme kind of retaliation; she just 100% gets to choose and decide what the punishment is, and so she’s playing favorites.

Andrew: I’m also blaming Hooch here, too, because shouldn’t she have blown the whistle on Crabbe and punished him in some way? Surely she has authority too. I know the game was over, but…

Laura: Yeah, and we have seen her do that before too.

Micah: She was dealing with him, though, when the melee broke out, and she’s the one who actually hits Harry with the spell that gets him off of Draco.

Andrew: So all the more reason for her to punish him.

Micah: Aren’t there other referees too?

Eric: Well, because… yeah, there should be a lot more refs in this game, a game with 14 players that are all on their broom…

Andrew: In a huge field. I mean, in football, right, Micah? I mean, all the referees on the field.

Micah: So many referees.

Andrew: Oh my goodness, so many.

Micah: Well, Umbridge ends up deflating the entire mood of Gryffindor House despite their win over Slytherin, and Ron comes back; he’s deflated, and he’s been out traipsing through the snow. We talked about his anxiety earlier; despite them winning, he just thinks he did a terrible job and let everybody down because he let a couple goals through. I say, what did Oliver Wood do in his first match as Keeper? Let’s compare.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I’m sure Ron didn’t do that bad of a job at the end of the day. But I wanted to wrap up by asking – and this actually ties into the point that was brought up earlier about Fred and George getting to spend more time on their joke shop – by banning Harry from Quidditch, does Umbridge unknowingly give him more time to plot against her?

Eric: And more incentive.

Micah: Well, definitely more incentive.

Andrew: Oops! But even if she was worried that he would be doing such a thing, I think she’s feeling pretty confident at this point that she could catch him plotting against her.

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew: That’s also her ego.

Eric: Right, she’s power hungry.

Laura: Yeah. Well, now that she has access to the fireplaces and she’s intercepting people’s mail, I think she probably is feeling a little overconfident and like she has eyes everywhere. She’s not that clever. She’s really not.

Micah: No.

Laura: That’s why the power grab.

Micah: All right, well, that wraps up the Chapter by Chapter discussion.

Andrew: Oh, but Micah, give us some good news. I can’t take it anymore!

Micah: [whispers] He’s back.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: [gasps] Already? I thought that happened later.

Micah: Hagrid.

Andrew: Oh, oh, oh.

Micah: Who are you talking about?

Andrew: Oh, goodness. Okay.

Micah: The one saving grace at the end of the chapter is that Hagrid has returned. The light is on in his cabin.

Eric: Well, that could be anybody feeding the dog.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s true. That’s actually very true.

Eric: No, Hermione leaps to a completely unsubstantiated conclusion. She gives Harry false hope. What if it is just Grubbly-Plank?

Micah: Did anybody else have the feeling, though, that I did when reading this, given everything that went on in this chapter, are you almost like, “Who cares?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, actually, I was so relieved. I was so excited for some good news, yeah.

Micah: Were you? Okay.

Eric: For me, it hits right. It hits exactly as it should…

Andrew: “Who cares?” Ouch.

Eric: … which is like, “Oh, a friend of ours that we were genuinely worried about is going to be okay.”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and think about reading this for the first time, just clearly Hagrid has been a major presence in this series thus far, and for him to be gone for so long is worrying, not just for the trio, but for the reader too.

Micah: That’s true.

Andrew: So to have him back amidst all this bad news, it’s comforting for everybody.

Eric: Grawp absolutely sucks, but Hagrid is our fiercest ally.

Micah: For sure.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: All right, getting to our MVP style question of the week, I wanted to know what is our best guess at what McGonagall wanted to really say to Umbridge in her office with Harry and George present.

Andrew: I’m going to keep this kid-friendly. I think she wanted to say, “See you next Tuesday.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Is that a common saying?

Andrew: Some of our adult listeners might get that. Some might not. Hopefully you understand. [laughs]

Eric: Wow. Okay.

Andrew: I just had to explain to Eric and Micah off-air.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Thank you, I consider myself very enlightened now. I’m very happy with that. Okay, so my McGonagall response to Umbridge; I wrote it in all caps, and I’m going to try and do an impression of Jim Dale doing McGonagall. “DOLORES, I SWEAR, IF YOU HEM-HEM ONE MORE TIME I WILL SHOVE A LOZENGE SO FAR DOWN YOUR THROAT THAT THE FARTHEST REACHES OF CORNELIUS FUDGE’S POWER WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO GET IT OUT!” I don’t know if that was all over the place.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s good, and a great analogy, too.

Micah: That was good.

Laura: Yep, well done.

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: I decided to go with, “I can turn into a cat, and the possibilities are endless.”

Laura: Oh, man.

Andrew: [laughs] Scratch her up quite a bit will be my guess?

Micah: Cut her throat.

Laura: Or no, come into her office and one at a time, nudge each of those cat plates off the wall while making direct eye contact.

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: Eric, you know what I’m talking about. [laughs]

Eric: I know exactly what you’re talking about. Oh, McGonagall the menace. Just be awful.

Laura: And I said “Evanesco,” as in she should Evanesco Umbridge.

Micah: Yes, send her to poop mountain.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Send her where she belongs.

Micah: She’s the biggest piece of [censored] in the series.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That’s where she belongs. Good call, Laura.

Eric: This chapter really makes me think that there’s always an opportunity for a good offensive Silencio, right? Just literally silence an opponent; just literally make their voice go away for a little bit.


Lynx Line


Micah: All right, well, it is now time for the Lynx Line, where we asked our patrons: If you had to chant something at Malfoy to distract him while playing Quidditch, what would it be? So turning the tables here on him, and boy, did we get some good answers.

Andrew: Rachel actually didn’t have a chant, but she had another great idea. She said,

“I wouldn’t yell anything, but I’d slip a ferret into the Slytherin Quidditch locker room and arrange for as many people in the stands to have ferrets as well. Bring back some memories for Draco.”

Yeah, trigger him.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Ah, yes. Nothing like triggering past traumas, yes.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Zachary says,

“Always with two goons at his side
Never got a motorbike ride
Quite the thorn in one’s side
Harry Potter’s itch

Never can catch the Snitch
Daddy’s money can’t buy a win
Always caught in Harry’s tailwind
Harry Potter’s itch

Nepotism at its best
He enjoys a Malkin’s sweater vest
Never gets past the test
Harry Potter’s itch

Daddy’s money can buy the team
But not talent, so it seems
That’s why Gryffindors all beam
Harry Potter’s itch

Harry Potter’s itch
Harry Potter’s itch
Draco cannot catch the Snitch
Harry Potter’s itch”

Andrew and Laura: Wow.

Laura: Bravo.

Micah: That was really well done.

Eric: I’m honestly surprised to have avoided the B-word in all of those rhymes.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, I think it was implied. I read it as being implied.

Andrew: Ohh, okay.

Micah: Maybe that is not necessarily what Zach was intending, but it works.

Eric: Bravo, Zach.

Micah: Jen says, to the tune of, “Hey, Mickey”… do you want to do this together?

[Eric beatboxes]

Micah: “Hey, Malfoy, you’re so fine. You’re so fine, you blow my mind. Hey, Malfoy.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: “Accompanied by Slytherin cheerleaders and a fireworks display from Weasley Wizard Wheezes. Sometimes you need to play into people’s egos to distract them.”

Laura: Oh, that was so good.

Andrew: Great, now that’s going to be running through my head for the rest of the night.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Hey, Malfoy, you’re so fine. You’re so fine, you blow my mind. Hey, Malfoy! Hey, Malfoy!”

Micah: Can I just say, speaking of Malfoy, don’t you think, Andrew, we need the Tom Felton reaction video to what happened on The White Lotus this past weekend?

Andrew: Yes, definitely.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: There’s a Tom Felton reaction video to that?

Micah: No, we need one is what I’m saying.

Laura: There should be.

Andrew: Oh, oh, oh. Okay, yes, agreed.

Laura: So he can be like, “Father, what have you done?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Father, you have forsaken me.”

Micah: “A peacock escaped from the Manor.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Cassandra says,

“Bottle blonde, bottle blonde
Limp wand, limp wand
Malfoy, Malfoy
Mama’s boy, Mama’s boy”

Andrew: Nice.

Laura: That’s pretty to the point. I like it.

Andrew: Xavier said,

“Malfoy, Malfoy, always loud
But your skills should make you far from proud
You think you’re clever, think you’re sly
But your Seeker moves? They say goodbye!

You can’t catch the Snitch; you’re too slow
Your broom’s more wobbly than you’d like to show
You talk a big game, you boast and jeer
But everyone knows your Quidditch skills instill fear

So keep flying high, keep acting grand
But we know you’ll never take that final stand
Malfoy, Malfoy, you’ve had your day
But in the end, you’ll fade away!”

Laura: Why am I imagining a Thanos snap of Draco just fading away?

Eric: Oh, that would be cool. “Mr. Stark, I don’t feel so good.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: James has another rhyme.

“Malfoy, Malfoy cannot win
Despite the gold his dad puts in
Fancy broomsticks don’t mean shit
When you’re such an amateur git
So taunt the others, don’t hold up
You’ll never win the Quidditch Cup”

Micah: Looks like I got another “Hey Mickey” here. [laughs] Gilderoy Fangirl says,

“Hey, Draco, you’re full of slime. So full of slime, it blows my mind. Hey, Draco.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “Oh, Draco, what a pity you can’t understand
You’re a nepo baby, not a Quidditch man
Oh, Nepo, it’s not pretty
You have zero fans
It’s guys like you, Nepo
You’re going to lose, Nepo, lose, Nepo
It’s what you do, Nepo”

Laura: I love that one. And our last one comes from Kayla, who says,

“Malfoy, Malfoy thinks he’s so coy
Thinks he’s that boy that all girls enjoy
Malfoy, Malfoy thinks he’ll bring joy
By being that boy to catch the golden toy
Malfoy, Malfoy, we shall destroy
For being that boy who only annoys”

Andrew: Well done.

Eric: We have some very good scriveners.

Laura: Yeah, well done, y’all.

Micah: Amazing. “Hey Mickey” seems to be the song that suits Draco so well.

Laura: Right?

Andrew: [laughs] “Hey Draco.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for those contributions, and don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can email or send a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Please do send them in as soon as possible, because our next Muggle Mail episode will be Episode 700! And next week we’ll discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 20, “Hagrid’s Tale,” because Hagrid is back, and we’re all very excited, Micah.

Micah: And he got a tail.

Andrew: And he got a tail, wow.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Not a pig tail.

Laura: Max that.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: The abbreviation DA may most commonly refer to this position as chief prosecutor in a United States criminal case. What is the position with those initials that has a history stretching back to 1813? The correct answer, District Attorney. Some people said Defense Attorney; that’s wrong. District Attorney. 90% of folks with the correct answer said they did not look this up. Hey, we got an easy one. And this week’s winners are A Healthy Breeze; ADA Casey Novak… dun-dun.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Christa B; Deep Cover Auror; Dumbledore’s Rizzler Potion; Hedwig’s reproachful look at Harry; Jordan Meisner-Davis; Kennah Dawn; Legal Eagle; Navy Electronics Technician; Nerdy Gryffindor; Peter Johnson; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; Through Goes Hamilton; Tofu Tom (IS BACK)…

Micah: Yes.

Eric: And finally, Try Pleading the Fifth on Veritaserum. Wow, fun usernames as well this week. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What ice hockey player had a rule named after him – this was in 2008 – after he displayed unsportsmanlike tactics in an attempt to intimidate goalie Martin Brodeur by waving his hands and hockey stick in his face? Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website checking out transcripts or must listens or anything that you might be doing there, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: I can’t believe we didn’t call Quidditch “Quizzitch” once during the discussion today. That seemed inevitable, because it tends to happen on other episodes.

Eric: Yeah, a lot.

Andrew: Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam, Eric, and I are looking at what made the Hunger Games trilogy so popular, and also looking ahead to the upcoming spinoff book Sunrise on the Reaping, all about Haymitch during the second Quarter Quell. Very much looking forward to that new book being released this week. And on Millennial, we hosted a listener feedback episode where listeners would confess some of their secrets to us, and we tried to help them out as best as we Millennials can. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you, and there’s lots of great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear. And also, I plugged Patreon earlier; that is the best way to help us out. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can become a MuggleCast member and get access to bonus MuggleCast episodes. You can get ad-free episodes, you can get early access to episodes, and lots of other magical perks, all at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Lastly, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please send an owl to your Harry Potter-loving friends and say, “Hey, check out MuggleCast. They’re also talking about the new Harry Potter TV show that’s happening.” And please cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: “Oh Malfoy, you’re so fine. You make…” wait, no, I don’t want to do that one. Hold on. “Hey, Malfoy, you’re so fine. You’re so fine, you blow my mind. Hey, Malfoy.” Bye, everyone.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Finally got that beat down.

Transcript #696

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #696, Expelliarmy! (OOTP Chapter 18, Dumbledore’s Army)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. We are your Harry Potter friends and your weekly ride into the fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Andrew: And this week, put on your ballet shoes and meet us on the seventh floor of Hogwarts, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.” And to help us with this week’s discussion, we’re joined by our podcasting partner, Pam! Podcasting partner, Pam. Welcome back, Pam.

Pam Gocobachi: Loving that alliteration.

Andrew: Cohost of What the Hype?! and Millennial. Nice to have you back on the show to talk Harry Potter with us.

Pam: Nice to be back with you all.

Andrew: I consider Pam the biggest Harry Potter fan out of the five MuggleCasters, if we’re including Pam, because she has the most different editions of the Harry Potter books.

Pam: You bring this up every once in a while.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: Listeners, as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By becoming a MuggleCast member, you’re helping us conjure up episodes of this indie podcast, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast. We release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon, and in these we have fun talking about different aspects of the Potter fandom outside of Chapter by Chapter. And in a bonus episode coming this week, I am very proud to present my episode by episode plan for the Harry Potter TV show.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: As a teaser for my Episode 1 pitch. Let me tell you all right now it’s going to instantly win over longtime Harry Potter fans, because it’s going to be very different from how the movies open, and it’s just going to prove to us that they had good reason to do the Harry Potter TV series.

Micah: I would sign up for bonus MuggleCast just for that pitch alone.

Andrew: Right? Right? This could be a long bonus MuggleCast. I’m going to try not to make it a long one, but…

Pam: Smart of you to put it behind the paywall, too, because you don’t want to work for free.

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t want Warner Bros. stealing this!

Pam: WB has got to pay you. [laughs]

Andrew: That’s a great point.

Micah: Well, I think it would be a fantastic idea if this goes the length of, let’s say, two bonus MuggleCasts; then I don’t have to plan one for later in the month.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: It’s true; sometimes they do double duty.

Andrew: Listeners, be sure to check that out. And after you pledge to our Patreon, you can actually listen to bonus MuggleCast episodes and to ad-free episodes of MuggleCast right within your favorite podcast app, so it’s very easy to enjoy this bonus content just like you do regular MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: All right, now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.”

Eric: Aw, yeah. It’s a little bit of hope cracking on the horizon, everybody.

Andrew: [tearfully] Some much needed hope.

Eric: Some much needed hope. We last discussed Chapter 18 on Episode 454 of MuggleCast; it was titled “Drinky Winky.” Gee, I wonder why.

Micah: That might be my favorite episode title ever.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: [singing to the tune of Teletubbies] “Drinky Winky, Dipsy, Laa-Laa, Po. Teletubbies…”

Eric: Oh my God.

[Pam laughs]

Eric: And Po. Well, here is a fun little clip from that episode.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 454.

Andrew: I was wondering, has anyone ever been guilty of encouraging someone to do something so you could live vicariously through them? I always think of gambling.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s a lot of fun to watch people gamble, because it’s not your money.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And then once you start playing, you’re like, “Oh, never mind.”

Eric: I have provided that service for others, where I gamble and lose money for their entertainment. Yes, I have done it.

Micah: I’m not going to Vegas with you, Andrew.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: This is a red flag right away. You’re going to be on the roulette table.

Andrew: Yep. Let me watch you play.

Micah: You’re just going to want to put the little chips on the board for me and then hope for the best.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: Did you pick that clip, Eric, because I now live in Vegas?

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Eric: There were several reasons for picking that clip, but yes, that’s probably one of them.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: That’s funny.

Eric: I’m wondering, Andrew, tell us, are you still up to no good with that? Are you still encouraging others to gamble?

Andrew: [laughs] Maybe not encourage others to gamble, but I still prefer to live vicariously through others and watch them gamble rather than play myself.

Eric: Smart, smart.

Pam: Plus, isn’t your favorite phrase “You gotta bet big to win big”?

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.

Pam: That’s very enabling. [laughs]

Eric: It’s very coercive, yeah. Oh, man.

Andrew: I want to see a Harry Potter slot machine. That hasn’t happened yet.

Pam: Oh, I’m sure it’s somewhere at the MGM.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, I’ll get looking.

Micah: I feel like it’s got to be somewhere. That’s the one thing we didn’t do when I was in Vegas, Andrew. We didn’t go to any casinos.

Andrew: When you’re a local, you don’t play. I mean, I would have happily taken you, though.

Micah: I think I was coming from a hotel that had plenty of slot machines in there if I really wanted to. But it was a work trip, so you try not to dabble in that.

Andrew: Yeah, be professional.

Eric: Always stay a few thousand dollars behind your boss. That’s the rule.

[Everyone laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: But anyway, I mentioned this chapter has some hope to offer us, however, not right away, unfortunately. We have a lot of indecisiveness on the part of the trio, and Hermione in particular. So she is now convinced that Hedwig was intercepted by Umbridge and that it’s been basically a whole false pretense to come up with the lie about Dungbombs so that Filch could get at Harry’s correspondence, which is a huge violation. And of course, it’s under the guise of keeping the school safe, secure, but what bothers me about it is Umbridge is very much a character that does not act in good faith, and she will really roll out all the tricks she has in order to do something that is illegal or very heavily not above board.

Andrew: Yeah, well, and this reminds me of how here in the Muggle world, post-9/11 we had the Patriot Act, in which it became easier for the government to start tapping our phones. And there was reason for it, but it also made a lot of people rightly uncomfortable that it suddenly became easier for us to be surveilled. The thing about this situation in the book is that Umbridge has a false pretense, whereas that one in the Muggle world was more justified, maybe not entirely so, though.

Eric: Yeah, so it’s a real invasion of privacy in general, but it’s done under some level of justification.

Micah: Yeah. And I wanted to look this up, because I remember when growing up, I would always hear, “Don’t open somebody else’s mail; it’s illegal.” And it turns out that it is true here in the US, that opening up somebody else’s mail is a federal crime. It’s called obstruction of correspondence, and it’s a serious felony that could lead to you ending up in jail. And so I figure if you layer on animal cruelty to this, Umbridge is really getting herself into some hot water if she were to be caught for doing any of these things. But I did want to ask, is there any kind of similar crime in the UK?

Andrew: I looked into this for you, Micah, and actually, yes, it is also illegal over there. Under the Postal Services Act of 2000, specifically Section 84 of the Act makes it an offense to intentionally delay, open, or interfere with someone else’s mail without reasonable excuse. So actually, intentionally delay mail? Didn’t Dobby do that in an earlier book? [laughs]

Pam: Damn, everyone’s going to jail.

Eric: Oh, but that happened before 2000! It happened before…

Andrew: Ohh. Ah, you’re a good lawyer for Dobby. [laughs]

Pam: Loophole.

Eric: It wasn’t illegal in 1992.

Andrew: Maybe they were reading the Harry Potter books and they were like, “Wait, that doesn’t sound right. We need to make this illegal.” [laughs]

Pam: I wonder if the same rate, though, extends to schoolchildren at a private school, or if that would be another loophole where they would say, “For the safety of everyone involved, we have to reserve the right to check correspondence.”

Eric: Oh, that’s a heck of a thing.

Micah: Could extend that to the Dursleys as well. Feel like we’ve talked a little bit about the fact that they were keeping Harry’s mail from him.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Maybe the first…

Pam: I mean, he was ripping it up, right? Uncle Vernon. Not necessarily opening it, technically, so maybe that’s how he’d get off. [laughs]

Andrew: But also just delaying Harry from being able to open it by trying to hide them and rip them up.

Micah: But I will say, I love that we found this connective thread for the Dursleys, Dobby, and Umbridge. They’re all very much headed to the slammer.

[Andrew laughs]

Pam: Maybe they can share a cell.

Andrew: The unexpected connection between Dobby and Umbridge.

Micah: Cell mates.

Eric: Yeah, so we have all of this evidence now – or it seems like evidence – that Umbridge is committing these wrongs against the students, and yet, this group that they’re building in order to combat this stuff is currently giving Hermione second thoughts. She actually has regret. She asks them, “Are we doing the right thing?” And there’s a funny moment with Ron where he’s kind of exasperated about it; he’s like, “This was your idea, Hermione.” But it’s just clear to me that stuff is really getting real, and Hermione is feeling two things that she is, which is young and vulnerable, and like a student, so she really feels powerless to affect any kind of change on a scale that’s going to make it worth it, given their sacrifice.

Pam: Well, it’s one thing, too, to be responsible for yourself and for maybe your two best friends, since it’s an unspoken thing that the trio are in it together. But it’s another thing to be responsible for 25 other students, right? And I think that’s where she starts to get cold feet, because it’s not necessarily about doing the right thing; it’s about doing right by those people that didn’t maybe necessarily understand what they were signing up for in terms of facing the wrath.

Andrew: Yeah, I think the size of the group is daunting, but I think this is normal for most of us when we’re embarking on something new, and certainly something that might be a little risky. So I think Hermione is grappling with several things here, and it’s a good lesson for readers, seeing somebody experience this doubt. Hermione tends to be a pretty brave person, and for her to hit this wall is a good bit of character development.

Micah: Yeah, it’s the weight of consequence, too, because she doesn’t know what’s going to happen. And certainly, if they’re caught, they could get in a lot of trouble, and that’s not something that I think she’s really prepared for. It’s one thing to get in trouble with Dumbledore; it’s another thing to get in trouble with the Ministry.

Andrew: Right, the big scary police.

Eric: The po-po. Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I think, though, from a reader’s perspective, especially because we’ve read this book before, we know that Dumbledore’s Army does create positive change for everyone. We know it’s a good thing; it’s adding value. The characters at this stage can’t possibly know that; they won’t even have the first lesson until the back half of this chapter. But knowing that it is such a force for positive change, and tracking that, I feel like nothing short of the spells they learn in this year end up saving those kids’ lives two years out in the Battle of Hogwarts that’s coming, and we see, I believe, a lot of the students using those types of spells that they got during the DA to survive during Voldemort’s assault on Hogwarts. So it’s, I guess, heartening… or actually harrowing, sad, to see Hermione so uncertain, because she single-handedly, with the help of Harry and Ron, have created something that’s going to really matter to people; they just don’t know it yet.

Andrew: Yeah, but they do know it even by the end of the chapter. The chapter ends with Hermione saying to Harry, “That was really, really good, Harry,” and Ron backs her up, says, “Yeah, it was!” enthusiastically. They’re experiencing that successful relief, maybe you can call it, at the end of this chapter after the first meeting. They’re over the hill; they’re over the fear of putting together this group, and they can see the effects, and – like Eric, you’re saying – in time, they’ll look back and be even more proud that they did decide to go through with this despite that initial fear.

Eric: Is there a moral lesson here? As far as…

Andrew: Conquer your fears!

Eric: Don’t give up; you’re doing the right thing.

Pam: I think you could actually probably link it back to… what is it? In what book did Dumbledore say that “We must all face the choice between doing what is right and what is easy”? So she’s doing the right thing, but it’s not easy for her to go through with it.

Andrew: Yeah, that was in Goblet of Fire.

Micah: There’s definitely some anticipatory anxiety going on.

Eric: Yeah. Now, something that I think is a low blow is either Harry calls Hermione out on it, or she outright says it, that Sirius is a huge reason why she’s having second doubts, because he’s a reckless godfather.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I can barely talk about this. It hurts so bad.

Pam: Aww.

Eric: But just because he is feeling useless and stuck at his home does not mean that wanting to do something to oppose the Ministry is a bad plan, right? They’ve gotten this far because they see the need. So yeah, you can question someone’s motives, but don’t just assume that because they want what you want, that what you want is wrong.

Micah: That’s a great point, yeah. With Hermione, though, would she expect any different from Sirius? This is right up his alley.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: She should have anticipated this, or not been surprised by this. Crackpot theory: Sirius was actually trying to do some reverse psychology here. He actually didn’t want them to do this, but said he loves the idea just to screw with Hermione and get her to doubt herself.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Eric: I love that headcanon. That works for me.

Pam: I just think, too, she’s seen the slow decline of just how reckless he’s been, because even if you look back to Sirius’s advice to Harry in Goblet of Fire, he’s the one that’s telling Harry not to do anything rash, like, “Think about what you’re going to do before you actually do it.” And that’s a big juxtaposition going from that to him trying to egg Harry on and being like, “Oh, the risk is what would have been fun for your father.” That’s kind of like a slap in the face. I think Hermione, she sees it more… and I think that rereading this for the purposes of this show through an adult lens, I see why she is worried about that. But as a teenager, I read this and I was like, “Yeah, why are you being so mean to Sirius?” I get it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s the problem; I’m still in my teenage mental state, going, “Why is everyone hating on Sirius?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s the big takeaway. Pam is calling you a teen. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Which, hey, whatever.

Pam: Teenage petulance. [laughs]

Micah: I think perhaps that Hermione is reacting less to Sirius and more to Molly, and the message that Sirius gives the trio from Molly, specifically to Ron. But I’m sure Hermione doesn’t want to be in a position where she feels like she’s disappointing Mrs. Weasley.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s going to have to see Molly again, Mrs. Weasley again. So yeah, I think that gives her some pause. Though, Hermione does just straight up say in this chapter that it is Sirius who’s giving her pause, but it’s probably both forces. It’s disappointing her best friend’s mom, who she is going to have to see again at some point, and Sirius encouraging this devious behavior.

Micah: Right.

Pam: She really does carry a lot more burden than we realize, I think.

[Micah and Pam laugh]

Pam: And this argument specifically is making me realize that she probably worries more than Harry and Ron combined, and it weighs on her.

Andrew: Yeah, and she was responsible for this idea. I mean, she and Ron pitched it to Harry, so if they did get in serious trouble, this was her fault. This wasn’t Harry’s fault.

Eric: That’s a fair point.

Micah: They all agreed, though, so equal responsibility. Her idea, but they’re co-conspirators. I did think a little bit about this, though, and how Hermione still very much puts trust in authority figures, but gets very apprehensive around advice from those she considers to be more reckless in nature. And it’s not just Sirius in this chapter; we see it a little bit later on with Dobby, and it’s only when Harry validates the Room of Requirement via Dumbledore that Hermione relaxes.

Eric: Right.

Micah: But I thought to myself, let’s not forget: If the Order knows about Dumbledore’s Army via Mundungus, Dumbledore knows about Dumbledore’s Army, and he’s not stopping it. So Hermione should feel validated in her initial decision to form this group.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The fact that Dumbledore hasn’t bust down the door.

Pam: That’s a really good point.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s some big brain thinking. I love that. That’s a really good point.

Micah: Thanks.

Andrew: It’s too bad nobody said that to to her, but oh well.

Eric: Yeah. So one of the things that happens right at the middle of the chapter is that Harry’s scar hurts. And I think when they’re going back and forth, if you split this chapter in halves, the first half is, “Did we do the right thing?” The second half is, “Hell yeah, we did the right thing.” But right at the middle, Harry’s scar hurts, and I think this was really poignant because it showcases what the threat is. It reminds readers, because it’s been a little while since we’ve gotten this level of insight into Voldemort, and just reminds the audience what’s at stake maybe, I think.

Andrew: Yeah, why they are assembling this group.

Eric: Yeah, ultimately it’s easy to get hung up on this whole Umbridge crap, but the real bad guy is out there.

Andrew: Yeah. Ariane says, “Hermione is so used to following/trusting authority. Don’t we all have massive doubts when we break out of our norm?”

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And when we do, when we do break out of that shell, and then we crush it – like we see by the end of this chapter, Hermione is very pleased with how it went – you just feel elated. You’re like, “I got over that hill, I broke out of my comfort zone, and this is going to pay off.”

Eric: I think that’s part of growing up, to your point. And this is not intended as a hit piece on Hermione, though she should be nicer to Sirius.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He’s not going to be alive very much longer, so I feel confident saying that.

Micah: For nothing else, for her cat who loves Sirius.

Eric: Yeah! Aww.

Andrew: Think of Crookshanks, Hermione. I mean, some people put a lot of weight in your animal loving another human. I know somebody who’s always like, “Oh, my dog loves this person.”

Pam: Good judge of character.

Andrew: Good judge of character! So Hermione should be looking towards Crookshanks and trusting.

Pam: I mean, Crookshanks was after Wormtail before they knew he was Wormtail, so he’s got a good track record.

Eric: It’s a fair point. Although, I’m debating whether to say this because it undercuts the “Sirius should get more trust” argument, but as far as a cat goes, it’s kind of easy to win them over as long as you have food.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That is true.

Eric: Good judge of character, or simply providing their basic needs? An open question.

Micah: Martha was basically my best friend once I had those little treats in my hand.

Eric: That’s what I’m saying; it’s why we give them to people. She’s a little nervous otherwise.

Andrew: Micah, give yourself more credit. All animals love you, as you saw in my home as well.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Literally.

Micah: Yeah, I will never forget it.

Eric: So you did have a question here, Micah, about the Horcrux.

Micah: Yeah, and you were talking about Harry’s scar, and I thought it was interesting how he’s starting to be able to differentiate between when Voldemort is feeling certain emotions. He talks with Ron about how when his scar was hurting with Umbridge, it was because Voldemort was happy, and now his scar is hurting him because Voldemort is angry. And there’s this line in this chapter, which I think is so important and probably so easily glossed over by us as readers going through this on an initial read, and it said, “What was this weird connection between them, which Dumbledore had never been able to explain satisfactory?”

Andrew: And yet, Ron encourages Harry to go to Dumbledore with this information, and he says, “No, Dumbledore already knows,” and yet Harry is realizing that he is able to explain it now.

Eric: Yeah, these two have beef. It’s not going to get resolved until a particular…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s not really beef; it’s just an adult ignoring a child and his needs.

Andrew: I think Harry has beef with Dumbledore, but not the other way around.

Eric: That’s kind of what I’m saying.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: Dumbledore should not… I don’t think Dumbledore is surprised that Harry has beef with him, but he could be doing the extra mile to check in with Harry, except he’s deliberately avoiding him for the reasons that we know.

Micah: And this is the second time so far that we’ve seen where Harry has been encouraged to go speak to an authority figure, and he’s chosen not to.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: So maybe we should keep this in mind when we try to put all the blame on Dumbledore. I mean, it sounds like Harry has some issues to work through as well. It’s a two-way street.

Micah: Well, because Dumbledore has been ignoring him for the past several months. Won’t even talk to the kid.

Eric: Won’t even look at him.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “I’m very busy. I’m very busy.”

Micah: You’re busy? What are you doing?

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Oh, I’m busy. Just don’t worry about it. All in due course, you’ll know.”

Eric: He’s counting chamber pots.

Andrew: [laughs] “How many have I not filled up just yet?”

Eric: So now it’s the part of the chapter where everyone who’s been reading the book up to this point can finally breathe, because something finally happens that goes right.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Dobby comes to the rescue, both with a fully functional and repaired Hedwig, but…

Andrew: That criminal Dobby. Mail-stealing Dobby.

Eric: I mean, I think Grubbly-Plank entrusted him to give her to Harry. I guess she knew he was going that way. But yeah, so basically, back in the common room, Harry – who is not confiding in Dumbledore – does have a flash, a stroke of genius, and he decides to ask Dobby, “Hey, do you know a place where we can practice DADA?” And Dobby does. And what’s interesting here – it’s kind of a blink and you’ll miss it comment, like the one we highlighted up above – but Dobby says he heard tell of the Room of Requirement from the other Hogwarts house-elves, and I find that interesting. Obviously, we know Dobby has been using the Room of Requirement to help Winky out, but I think largely the way that it’s presented during this reread, I’m thinking, is that mostly the elves know about this. Very few students… we see a few humans talk about it; Dumbledore has mentioned it. Fred and George are like, “Oh yeah, this was a closet for us once; we were hiding from Filch.” But on the whole, this seems to be in the domain of the elves. And so I wanted to ask – this is going to be this episode’s Lynx Line question as well – but if the elves do use this room and know about it, what do they use it for? So we’ll get to that in just a moment. But my theory on this matter would be that, because we’ve always heard house-elf magic is different than wizard magic, maybe something about the way that the Room of Requirement works… it seems a bit more open-ended; it seems a bit more, I don’t know, special than all the other standard wizard magic, a rotating staircase, say, that maybe the type of magic that powers the room is closer to elf magic to the point where an elf that’s passing by, or lives in the castle in fair proximity to this room, would get a tingle or a sixth sense that something is going on in that room. So that’s my crazy crackpot theory about elves and why they know about the Room of Requirement.

Micah: I like it. I just like the fact that Hogwarts would have parts of it that were potentially built by non-witches and wizards.

Eric: There’s that too.

Micah: Makes me think about the Fountain of Magical Brethren quite a bit. And the other reason why I really love this is because in Hogwarts Legacy, so much of our relationship with Deek, one of the house-elves, is based in the Room of Requirement.

Eric: Right, it’s where we meet him, it’s where he’s introduced, and it’s something of a refuge for Deek and you.

Andrew: Yeah. No, I do like this theory, Eric. I actually wouldn’t consider it too crackpot that the house-elves are somehow responsible for creating the Room of Requirement, or at least helped build it.

Eric: Well, I appreciate that.

Andrew: One question I had about the room, though – and maybe we could talk about this more as the series progresses – but it’s always bugged me that it seems like only one person or group can use the Room of Requirement at a time, because I would have to think when people start hearing about it, demand can fill up pretty quickly. And if it is the Room of Requirement, and one of its key benefits is that you can basically just walk up to it and be like, “I need help now,” it’ll help you, except when somebody else is already in there? So I just don’t understand how that works. I feel like it’s a flaw of the Room of Requirement for it to not be able to accommodate multiple parties at the same time.

Eric: Well, you can get into the room when somebody else is in the room as long as they didn’t ask it to become inaccessible, the way Draco does in the next book. But the room can’t itself be two things at once, I don’t think.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Or if it is two things at once, the second thing that it is is a broom closet that deters Harry because Draco is in there to use it for…

Andrew: [laughs] Or Dumbledore is peeing in there right now.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, maybe something small it can be two things at once. But yeah, I mean, I agree with you; I think it’s mostly the one thing. And I bet it’s just down to bandwidth. There’s a lot of magic, a lot of powerful magic going on to… that room is waiting on you hand and foot.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Pam: Well, kind of similar to how it can transform back into the same room, even if two different people are thinking for different reasons. Like becoming the hiding room, basically; it’s very clear that students across the ages have had to hide things in Hogwarts at some point or another, and that’s just the room where they go hide things. But everybody’s mind is different, so you would assume that everybody would have their own hiding room; it wouldn’t just be one room. But it seems like it’s pretty… it’s simple but complicated.

Eric: Yeah. So after we find out about this amazing Come and Go Room, Harry does resist the urge to visit it immediately. I’m proud of him, everybody. Very happy.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s growth right there. Resistance. Patience.

Micah: Smart move.

Eric: That is growth. I honestly think it’s Hermione rubbing off. “Are we doing the right thing?”, etc.

Andrew: No, yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, that thought crosses Harry’s mind. And also, he’s tired. He’s like, “Oh, I just need to rest already. I’ll go check out this room later.” No rush; it obviously will be there the next day.

Eric: So we’re about to describe the room at great detail. But something that we pointed out in Episode 454 of MuggleCast way back in 2020 is worth repeating, which is that Chapter 18, which this is, sees Harry using the Marauder’s Map to help him navigate, and students getting to and from their common rooms to the first DA meeting. And the same chapter number, Chapter 18 of Prisoner of Azkaban, is “Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs,” where we get the in-depth look at the creators of the Marauder’s Map.

Andrew: Damn, good catch.

Micah: Connecting those threads.

Eric: Yeah, past us. Nice work.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So here is a short description of where the room is: The entrance to the Room of Requirement is located on the seventh floor across from a tapestry.

Andrew: [gasps] Seventh.

Eric: What’s that?

Andrew: Seven! Seven reference.

Eric: Oh, I didn’t even see that! Yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Really? It’s bolded.

Eric: I did bold it. Yeah, the seventh floor across from a tapestry of Barnabas the Barmy “being clubbed by those trolls,” which is what it’s described as earlier in the chapter, and then later, a “foolish attempt to train trolls for the ballet.” This tapestry is as interesting, if not more, than the Come and Go Room, I think, itself. What is the meaning, if there is any to be discerned, of this tapestry being in front of this room?

Andrew: I did have the same thought as you that there has to be some sort of symbolism going on here, so I was trying to come up with some sort of theory to explain this. Umbridge would see the DA as a foolish attempt to train an army.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: And so in this analogy, Harry and company are the trolls who are attempting to thwart her. But maybe more broadly, I think this portrait could symbolize being able to do whatever you want in this room, something as random or foolish as trying to train trolls for ballet.

Eric: Oh, so sort of “The possibilities are endless”?

Andrew: Yeah, right, exactly.

Eric: Maybe Barnabas used this room in order to try and train the trolls.

Andrew: Oooh.

Pam: I wonder if it’s like… barmy means going mad or going crazy, and you would think you went mad if you found a room and then went back to find that room and it was gone.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, or you’re going mad trying to figure out a solution for your problem, and then here’s the Room of Requirement.

Micah: Part of me thinks that it might be a commentary on the fact that you can’t force things to go against their true nature. So here you have somebody trying to train trolls to do ballet, but yet he’s getting clubbed by all these trolls, because there’s no way they’re going to do ballet. That’s just not in their nature.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It also reminds me of what Hagrid tries to do with his brother later in this book, sort of the futile effort. But I like that, Micah, as far as you can’t change things or their nature. There’s an old parable that’s the scorpion and the frog, which reminds me of that. But yeah, anyway, it’s sort of ironic, also, because you can make the room be whatever you want; we’ve yet to really see too much of a limit on it. So that’s also fun, as you have on one hand, a futile attempt, and on the other side of the same hallway, infinite possibility.

Andrew: Yeah. And this portrait does make an appear in Hogwarts Legacy, by the way. Do we see it in the movie?

Pam: No, it’s the unicorn tapestry that’s in all the rooms.

Andrew: Ahh. [laughs] They just reused something. “We’ll save a little money.”

Pam: Yeah, which I think is a famous tapestry. [laughs]

Andrew: Got it.

Eric: So we mentioned this earlier, but Hermione hears from Harry that Dumbledore mentioned this room. And it’s one of those things where Harry only thinks about it after the fact, like, “Oh, this one time he mentioned it,” and she’s put immediately at ease. And I also have to give her credit, because she does… when they all get in there, she sees the books, the crazy assortment of books; she knows that they made the right choice. And not fully distracted by the books, she’s the one that starts off the meeting with formally electing Harry the leader of the group. And I think Ron scoffs at her, like, “Why are you doing this? Obviously it’s Harry.” Or Cho, even, just scoffs at Hermione. But I think it’s important to get those little things out of the way, because it Zacharias Smith-proofs these proceedings.

Andrew: And also, by appointing Harry the leader, if they get caught, it’s Harry’s problem.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Nice!

Andrew: She washed her hands. “That was the leader. That was his fault. I didn’t think of this idea.” No, I don’t think she had that intention.

Eric: That’s her last personal security.

Andrew: I don’t think that’s what she was thinking. But yeah, it’s important to have a leader for this organization so there isn’t all this infighting, because if the group does explode, if it does blow up, then somebody is going to possibly rat them out. And then, obviously, Hermione has a contingency plan for that, but it’s just good for organization’s sake, and probably, like I said, for her comfort level.

Micah: It’s setting the table and making things very clear from the start, which I think, given some of the folks in this group – as you said, Eric, basically Zachariah Smith-proofing it – is important.

Eric: You just know he would ask, “Wait a minute, why are we listening to him?” Just by the cheek that he gets over them studying Expelliarmus, to which Harry… can we just give Harry the credit that he’s an excellent teacher? It comes very naturally to him; he has a knack. And this idea to teach them the Disarming Charm… somebody like Zacharias might and does scoff at that, but all Harry has to say is, “I actually used this against Voldemort, and it saved my life.”

Andrew: “Any questions?”

Eric: Yeah, how can you argue with that? You can’t.

Andrew: No.

Micah: I’d be like, “Really? That’s what got you away from him?”

Andrew: [laughs] “Some Chosen One you are.”

Eric: Micah has got some Zacharias Smith in him, I think. This is exciting.

Andrew: Micah would have voted for Zacharias to lead Dumbledore’s Army. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: I don’t know about that, but I’d be skeptical of Expelliarmus being the spell that saved your behind from the Dark Lord.

Andrew: No, that’s fair.

Eric: It’s true.

Pam: Would you, if he keeps getting thwarted by a 12-year-old, though? Like, man’s tried to kill him how many times?

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Micah: He should just give up and go live somewhere else in the world at this point.

Eric: I think it’s just that they’re not expecting a defensive charm; they’re expecting to learn an offensive charm.

Micah: True. Well, especially after all of what has gone on in Umbridge’s classes up until this point, to have to start with something like that. It’s like, “Well, that’s not sexy. That’s not appealing. I thought we were coming here for the good stuff.”

Andrew: Right, all the anticipation of Dumbledore’s Army, the secret underground club, and then they start with a disarming spell.

Pam: But I also think it shows that Harry is thinking back on where his defensive skills started. And Lockhart didn’t teach him much, but going to that Dueling Club did teach him that the first step to dueling was learning how to disarm, so everybody has to start somewhere. And it seems to me like maybe only people that went there learned how to disarm, and maybe they just didn’t teach that in the DADA classes.

Micah: The fundamentals, that’s what you have to start with. And he doesn’t know the baseline for how good any of these students are.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point, too.

Pam: Turns out most of them are really bad at disarming, too. [laughs]

Eric: Well, it illustrates the purpose of needing this club.

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: Well, speaking of really bad, something that caught my eye was that everybody starts pairing up to practice Expelliarmus, and Neville is actually the odd man out. He can’t find somebody to partner up with, so Harry ends up practicing with him one on one, which I found interesting because the prophecy could have also been about Neville, and now Neville and Harry are the ones training together in Dumbledore’s Army. I wonder if that was an intentional choice for that reason.

Eric: I like that a lot.

Pam: Me too.

Micah: Aside from the fact that nobody wants to partner with Neville?

Pam: I know.

Andrew: Come on.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: I know, I just insulted him too.

Pam: That part makes me sad where he’s like the last picked in gym class.

Andrew: Yeah, but that’s Neville throughout the series, right? The odd man out.

Pam: I know.

Andrew: Poor guy.

Micah: But who better to pair with than Harry? Than the teacher?

Eric: That’s true.

Andrew: Yeah, but if that happens in school, that means you’re not cool. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, it’s bad.

Andrew: “Andrew is stuck with the teacher. Oh, he’s got no friends.”

Eric: Oh no.

Pam: Sounds like we’ve opened an old wound here. [laughs]

[Andrew fake cries]

Micah: But Eric, going back to what you were saying earlier, I do love how good of a teacher Harry is, and I think a lot of it draws upon his lessons with Lupin.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: Absolutely.

Micah: Lupin is probably the best teacher that Harry has had. He’s learned the most from him, and we see his ability to take so much of what he learned from Lupin and apply it in this book.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really the rubric for which he’s using. And it starts, I think, with empathy, with understanding that people are going to be at different levels, and saying, “Hey, that’s okay.”


Odds & Ends


Micah: So a couple of odds and ends that I picked up on from this chapter: Fred and George, they continue to test their products out on themselves. We’ve talked a lot about Fred and George throughout the course of this book, and the fact that they are not meant for Hogwarts for very much longer. Hermione throws a lot of shade their way, unfairly, but they’re pushing ahead.

Andrew: And their butts aren’t meant for brooms right now, because they’ve got some lumps on them, they said. [shudders]

Micah: It’s like every chapter has a little bit more of information that we don’t want to hear about in terms of the things that these two are experiencing.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But look, if you’re going to open up a joke shop and create all these very cool, different things that students can use to presumably get out of class, good on you for testing them out on yourself first. And then we need to give some kudos to Ginny, because she is the one who names Dumbledore’s Army.

Eric: Aww. I wasn’t going to bring this up; I’m so glad that you did.

Andrew: This makes Eric feel better after Hermione’s rough comments on Sirius earlier.

Eric: Yeah, but I really think it’s a group effort. Yes, Ginny is the one that alters “DA” to mean “Dumbledore’s Army,” but it’s really… they’re lobbying or vollying ideas, and that’s ultimately something they can all be proud of, is that they come up with this title together. It’s symbolic of the work they’re going to be doing together this year.

Andrew: Yeah, and of course, it tees up later on when Dumbledore takes the blame for Dumbledore’s Army.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: Well, it’s such a good name that now we’re going to change it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yes, of course. So what is the best alternate name for the DA? Andrew?

Andrew: Expelli-army!

Eric: That’s so adorable.

Micah: I really like that, actually.

Andrew: Thank you. Thanks.

Micah: That gets my vote.

Eric: Yeah, mine too. I went for basic: Fight Club.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, that works, because you don’t talk about Fight Club.

Eric: That’s right, yeah.

Pam: Right.

Andrew: For any kids who haven’t seen that movie.

Eric: Have you actually seen Fight Club, Andrew?

Andrew: I have, believe it or not.

Pam: Wow.

Andrew: I haven’t seen many movies, but…

Eric: I can’t believe that’s one of the five movies you’ve seen.

[Micah and Pam laugh]

Micah: I went with Potheads.

Andrew: [laughs] Micah. Short for Potter? Potheads?

Micah: Short for Potter.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: That used to be a name. Well, not Potheads, but remember when the media always used to call Harry Potter fans “Potterheads”?

Pam: Yeah, I hated that.

Andrew: I never liked that. Yeah, me too.

Pam: Super cringe.

Eric: Oh, I had a soft spot for it.

Andrew: Aw.

Eric: And Pam, did you have an alternate name?

Pam: I did; I didn’t write it down, but I think I would have gone with the Junior Order. But then I realized that they’re not supposed to talk about the Order either.

[Everyone laughs]

Pam: So maybe it’s not a great name.

Andrew: Umbridge is like, “Hem-hem? Where’s the Senior Order?”

[Pam laughs]

Eric: Oh my God, hilarious.


Lynx Line


Eric: Okay, well, finally, let’s get over to our Lynx Line answers. And again, the question this week was: Obviously Dobby needs the Room of Requirement to help Winky out, but what do the other house-elves use the Room of Requirement for if they do? And I think we’ll go in host order.

Andrew: Rachel said,

“I really want to think of the elves using it for something fun or restorative, but with the exception of Dobby, they’re so work driven. I can see it being a spot to grab extra cleaning supplies, or reference books for new recipes or home care. Maybe a place for elf medicines or a quarantine too, since I can’t imagine house-elves in the hospital wing, though that should totally be a thing.”

Eric: I like that. Carlee says,

“Elf library. Books about anything they might care about. How-to books on home maintenance, fairy tales where the elves are the protagonists, cookbooks, elf history books, even raunchy elf romantasy!”

Andrew: Ooh.

Eric: Not going to be un-thinking that anytime soon.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Next one is from Xavier, who says,

“My guess is that they don’t just use it for one thing. Need cleaning supplies? Boom, broom cupboard. Where to put wizard trash? Boom, elfish garbage dump. Need to let off some steam because your masters are the Malfoys? Boom, room full of oven doors and fire pokers to hit yourself on to your heart’s content. Sick elf? Boom, elfish hospital wing fully equipped with magical ailments for elves, which is the name of Hermione’s new company: Magical Ailments for Elves. This is my last Lynx Line; my membership expires tomorrow. Bye, MuggleCast!”

Andrew: No, Xavier! Come back!

Pam: Aww. [laughs]

Eric: Thank you, Xavier.

Micah: Xavier went boom.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: His membership went boom.

Pam: This one’s from Jen OG, who says,

“The house-elves work hard and use the Room of Requirement to relax by recreating the Eras Tour every night! They all take turns being the star of the show, although nobody can outshine Dobby’s Reputation era!”

Eric: Wow, I love how creative that is.

Andrew: Pam is a huge Taylor fan, and honest to goodness, I did not…

Pam: Oh, did you put this in for me? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but I didn’t intend for you to read it.

Pam: Oh, okay.

Andrew: That just happened to be the order it got placed in. That’s funny to me.

[Pam laughs]

Andrew: Paula said,

“Magical movie night! I like to think they get a break from their hard work, and they use their magic to create beautiful shows.”

Oh, like live theater?

“There’s popcorn, candy, and no need for bathroom breaks as this is the Room of Requirement, after all.”

Eric: Badgerforth: “It’s 100% their dump. Where else does wizard trash go? The Room of Requirement, of course!”

Andrew: Aww. That makes me sad to think the house-elves are just using it as a dump instead of a place to put on live performances of Shrek: The Musical.

Micah: Cassandra said, “Since we never see any food deliveries at Hogwarts, maybe this room becomes an enormous farmers’ market run by agricultural elves.”

Eric: That’s really creative.

Pam: And Jeff says,

“Hermione has got it all wrong. The house-elves aren’t laboring all day in the kitchen; they’re actually sneaking off to the Room of Requirement to pick up pre-made meals and pretending like they cooked it themselves.”

Eric: Oh.

Pam: Wow, that’s a scandal.

Eric: It’s not delivery; it’s DiGiorno!

[Pam laughs]

Andrew: It’s not food cooked by the house-elves; it’s Factor meals, a MuggleCast sponsor. Zachary said,

“It’s where they go for a nice stiff one after our hard day’s/night’s work. It’s their home away from home, away from their condo barrels in the kitchen.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s a cute addition from Hogwarts Legacy.

Andrew: Yes.

“A place where they can lounge on the beanies from Hermione that Dobby can’t fit on his head and discuss all the hot goss surrounding the castle.”

Oh, house-elves are total gossip queens. I hadn’t thought about that until now.

Pam: They definitely know everything that’s going on in the castle.

Andrew: And their big ears? They’re hearing so much happening.

Eric: And we know they throw some shade.

Andrew: Max that, Max that.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Eric: We also received many other responses, including several others that think that house-elves simply use it as a place to relax or blow off some steam. I do like that, this idea that the house-elves are not immune to some stress, and so the Room of Requirement is like a spa or a place to relax. I like that a lot. Thank you, everyone, for submitting that. Don’t forget that you, too, the listener, can participate in Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at the Patreon.com/MuggleCast address at our Slug Club level.

Andrew: Really fun new benefit we have; we’re really enjoying hearing from our listeners. And if you have any other feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Our next Muggle Mail episode is just a few weeks away; it’ll be Episode 700, and next week we will discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for everybody’s favorite game show, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question was: What bird did the Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages? The correct answer was pigeons!

Micah: Doves.

Eric: And because you learn something new every day, here’s how they did it: You would take pigeons that were from a certain region or area of the world and take them to these foreign cities where you were sending letters from, and truly, all that they would do is they would fly home with a letter attached.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Pam: Oh, is that where the “homing pigeon” saying comes from? Like, “I’m just a homing pigeon?”

Eric: Yep, it’s pretty neat, because in the Harry Potter books, it’s all magic; owls magically know where to find you. But anyway, 72% of people said they didn’t look it up; they knew about the pigeons, which is exciting. And those correct answers were submitted by 100% Ravenclaw since the beginning; A Healthy Breeze; Aberforth’s abs of dumbledough…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … AmyTheOldBoot; Beautiful plumage; Buff Daddy; Hermione’s Boggart Is Herself; I binge podcast when I’m not listening to audiobooks; I finally get to go back to work, March 23 hopefully; “I knew just the right answer!” in Andrew’s Gilderoy Lockhart voice, meaning it’s a lie because he’s a fraud; I tawt I taw a puddytat; John Lithgow reached out and got the correct answer. Nice job, John.

Andrew: Oh! Wow.

Eric: A.k.a. Michael; Julie Anne Fae; QuidWitch; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; and Umbridgerton.

Andrew: Oh, clever, clever.

Eric: Very clever. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: The abbreviation “DA” may most commonly refer to this position as chief prosecutor in a United States criminal case. What is the position with those initials that has a history stretching back to 1813? Because we always strive to be educational. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on the website, checking out transcripts or anything else, must listens page, etc., click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: And also check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us, including Pam. Thanks for joining us again today, Pam. Pleasure to have you on.

Pam: Of course.

Andrew: In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Micah and Laura are reviewing the latest season of The White Lotus, and on Millennial, we’re talking about the “Buy it nice or buy it twice” shopping trend. All of these shows are brought to you by Muggles like you, and there’s lots of great ways to help us out. One of our newest ways is by visiting MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear. You can also visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast for two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month. You hear that, Warner Bros.? That’s how you’re going to hear my plan for Harry Potter Season 1. You’ve got to pay up. Everybody else can also get ad-free episodes of MuggleCast. You can hop into a monthly Zoom hangout. There’s many other magical perks, all at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, send an owl to a friend about the show, and please cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Pam: And I’m Pamela.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Micah and Pam: Bye.

Transcript #695

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #695, Society for Hulk Prevention (OOTP Chapter 17, Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the upcoming Harry Potter TV show. This week, keep an eye on your fireplace because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “Educational Decree Number 24.” I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.


News


Andrew: And we do have a bit of Harry Potter TV show news this week, a small update following up on an item we discussed a couple weeks ago. John Lithgow says, “Yeah, I’m playing Dumbledore. It’s me!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Cool! Yeah, man!

Andrew: He said this in a recent interview. He confirmed it. Now, keep in mind, Warner Bros. has not confirmed this yet, so he got out ahead of their announcement, whenever they were planning on making it. He said, “I’ll be about 87 at the rap party, but I’ve said yes. I just got the phone call up at the Sundance Film Festival, and it was not an easy decision because it’s going to define me for the last chapter of my life, I’m afraid. But I’m very excited.” So it’s not just us who’s concerned about his age, because this is a ten-year commitment. Warner Bros. says this is a ten-year project they’re embarking on. Look, I’m excited. I just think it’s interesting they’re casting somebody so old.

Eric: I’m coming around on it, his casting specifically, because he is such a good actor, Emmy Award winner and that kind of thing. I’m still uncertain what this means for other Americans potentially being cast in the film, since that barrier of old is not maintained with this go-around, this reboot TV series. But yeah, and I think that what touched me about his statement is specifically this line about defining him for the last chapter of his life, so I think that he is looking at it with the level of, I don’t know, scope that this really has the chance to be a defining type role. That excites me.

Laura: Yeah. He knows how important it is, to your point, Eric. And I don’t know; when we heard the rumor, and heard that it was a very believable rumor, I was excited, and I’m super excited now. He is such a talented actor. And yeah, I mean, the age consideration is something that I’m sure they had a conversation about, but at the end of the day, if an actor who plays an iconic role passes away, it’s not the first time that’s happened, and we’ve seen how this very series has… I don’t want to say rectified that, but recast the role with somebody who was able to carry it forward. So I actually feel pretty confident about this.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I wasn’t on the episode when you discussed the rumor, so it’s the first time I’m getting a chance to react to it, but just hearing him talk about the role, I think, is exciting. And while it hasn’t been confirmed by Warner Bros., I did like what you were talking about, how really it seems like they’re casting around Dumbledore, right? This is the first big confirmation that we’ve gotten. Yeah, we’ve heard some rumors about Snape, but we now presumably have our Dumbledore for the TV series, and this idea that they are casting around him is something new because presumably, the first time around, they cast around the trio.

Eric: I’m calling it right now: Joseph Gordon-Levitt for Snape.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Oh, wow. Bring back everybody from 3rd Rock.

Eric: Have a whole 3rd Rock reunion, absolutely, starting with JGL.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Something that excited me about John Lithgow being cast as Dumbledore is that I was watching the SAG Awards last Sunday, and he ended up accepting an award for… was it Conclave, Micah?

Micah: I think so. That would’ve made sense.

Andrew: Yeah, he’s in Conclave, right? Yeah, with Ralph Fiennes, who, of course, played Voldemort in the movies. And they were standing right next to each other at the SAG Awards; I was like, “Oh, this is interesting. Here’s TV Dumbledore and movie Voldemort accepting an award together.” But what really stood out to me was John Lithgow is actually a tall guy, and that further sold me on Dumbledore. I think the height must have been a factor in deciding to cast him.

Eric: Yeah, and from Harry’s perspective when he’s 11, Dumbledore is this tall, older than dirt kind of guy.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’re so ageist.

Eric: His nose has been broken at least twice. I don’t know. He might just have the look down. I’m not sure.

Micah: I did want to ask about the fact that this is not a British actor. Is this surprising to us? Do we feel like we’re going to get a mixed cast now?

Andrew: [sighs] It worries me a little bit. I don’t want to see too many American actors in the TV show. I want them to stick with British people, please.

Laura: Well, it sounds like for the trio, if I recall the casting announcement, they were looking for people in the UK and Ireland, so I think at least for the trio and probably a lot of the kids, they’re going to stick with British actors.

Andrew: And that makes sense, because it would be a big challenge to ask very young kids to pull off a good English accent, whereas John Lithgow…

Eric: On top of everything else they’ve got to do.

Andrew: Right, including being thrust into the spotlight.

Eric: I want French Stewart for Filch, please and thank you.

Andrew: I’m still saying Timothée Chalamet for Harry Potter.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: How old is… isn’t he, like, 30 now?

Andrew: [laughs] Yes. He played Bob Dylan, for God’s sake.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: This role has a real good chance of defining him, Laura, if he would only accept it. Dune didn’t do it.

Andrew: How do you feel, Micah? Do you think they should be casting all English people, or should they be dabbling in the American waters, or elsewhere?

Micah: Well, this is presumably the most important role outside of Harry, so the fact that they would cast an American actor is a bit surprising, I think. I anticipated pretty much an all-British cast here. I don’t know if you necessarily need it, but it’s definitely surprising.

Eric: The interesting thing to me is that there are quite a bit more British actors on American mainstream projects now, and you wouldn’t even necessarily recognize. Like Charlie Cox, who plays Daredevil in the Marvel series.

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: Totally British, and does a convincing American accent. So they would presumably have a large group of actors to choose from that maybe when we get the news, we’re like, “Wait a minute, aren’t they American?” It turns out, no, in fact, they’re not.

Micah: One thing just to mention briefly: In the Discord Gabby did mention that John Lithgow did play Winston Churchill in The Crown, so presumably either he can do a very good British accent, or AI can, or whatever the technology…

Andrew: AI?!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I think they’ll just have them naturally pull it off. [laughs]

Laura: No, he has an incredibly broad range. You’re talking Lord Farquaad…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Keeps coming up.

Laura: … a deranged serial killer… Winston Churchill…

Eric: Wait, which one is the serial…?

Laura: Dexter. [laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, stick with MuggleCast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. Make sure you’re following us in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube, and we’ll continue to share news as it happens. As we continue to analyze the books and prepare to cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your financial support allows us to focus more time on the show and less time in the Muggle world, and in exchange, we’ll offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast; we release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon. We’ll also hook you up with a new physical gift every year, ad-free episodes of the show, exclusive Facebook and Discord groups, and so much more. Thanks, everybody, for your support. We really could not do this without you.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And let’s now dive into Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Educational Decree Number 24.”

Eric: Yes, and we last discussed this chapter on Episode 453 of MuggleCast, which in fun throwback flashback news was titled “2 Fast, 2 Illustrated,” because they had just announced MinaLima’s foray into the illustrated Harry Potter universe.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Time is a flat circle.

Micah: What a coincidence.

Eric: [laughs] February 11, 2020 was that episode.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 453.

Andrew: David, who’s listening live, also brings up a good point. He says, “So by definition, does the trio count as a society, team, group, club? Because in this Decree, she says three or more.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s awesome.

Andrew: Yeah. Three does seem like a low number. I mean, there are groups of three. I mean, we would be banned. We’re a club.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: “No podcasting.”

Laura: Oh, Umbridge would absolutely hate us.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: And we’re going to get banned again.

Micah: For sure.

Laura: Absolutely.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, let’s get right into it, shall we? We left Harry on a really bright positive note at the end of the last chapter; he was observing how beautiful the village of Hogsmeade was. Everything was kind of being viewed through rose-colored glasses, because Hermione had observed to Harry, “Cho couldn’t stop looking at you, plus she complimented you and stood up for you during the meeting.” And that’s all well and good for Harry; I love when he gets these moments. Unfortunately, they don’t tend to last very long, and that’s the case here too.

Andrew: Why should Harry ever be happy?

Laura: Basically. Is that the title of the episode? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah! We’re done for today.

Laura: We’ll see you next week!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But the reason that his happiness is cut short here is because on Monday morning, we are introduced to Educational Decree 24, which disbands all student groups, clubs, teams, and societies. I don’t know that I am aware of Hogwarts having any societies that we ever heard about; maybe we can unpack what those would be during this discussion. But it’s okay; everything has been disbanded, but students can have their group reinstated by getting approval from the High Inquisitor, so no biggie, right?

Eric: Yeah, you just have to bow to the whims and whatever she asks you to do in order to get your club approved.

Andrew: In terms of the societies, I wonder if Umbridge is sort of covering her bases, in case anyone tries to argue that they don’t have a club; they have a “society.”

Eric: A Society for the Protection of Elfish Welfare! Hello! SPEW is a society.

Andrew: There you go.

Laura: Oh, SPEW is… oh, and Umbridge would definitely disband SPEW.

Eric: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: Yes. [laughs]

Laura: I’m actually kind of surprised that that never became a conflict in this book. Maybe it would have just been too much. Because I feel like Hermione at this point, she’s going through a phase of rebellion where, if she actually had the conscious realization of, “Oh, me doing SPEW is just one more thing that I can do to get under Umbridge’s skin and resist,” she would do it. So it could just be that it would have been too many plot points.

Eric: I think maybe also technically it’s disbanded, because Hermione is the only one doing it right now.

Laura: Ohh, no. It’s true. [laughs]

Eric: So it’s not a society; there’s no social aspect. It’s just Hermione and her own crafts.

Andrew: Well, and the decree says, what, three or more?

Eric: Three or more.

Andrew: Groups of three or more? So Hermione is sneaking under the wire that way too.

Laura: Aren’t Harry and Ron technically members?

Micah: Didn’t they sign up?

Andrew: Do they all get together for these society meetings?

Laura: No.

Eric: Oh yeah, they paid her and got their little badge.

Laura: Well, Micah, there is a significance to the number of this Educational Decree, right?

Micah: There might be. I thought it might be fun to look up the significance of the number 24, and so in numerology, the number 24 is often interpreted as a symbol of harmony, balance, and completeness, and in this case, we would be talking about Umbridge, not the students, right? We could see how this could put her mind at ease, if she is in full control of what the students are doing in their off time. And I also thought it was relevant that there are 24 hours in a day, so Umbridge, this is her way of controlling students every waking hour.

Eric: Yes.

Laura: I like that.

Eric: She needs to be on their mind every hour of every day.

Micah: Right. We know that she is inspecting all of the different classes, so she’s in control there, but now she’s clearly in control when they’re not in the classroom, and it’s just one of those situations where the walls are starting to close in around Harry and his friends. We see that throughout this chapter; it’s not just the Educational Decree, it’s everything that is happening throughout the course of this chapter we can point to as a significant moment, and say the walls are closing in. And one thing I did want to bring up – we talked about this, actually, back on Episode 453 – there’s a significance to the fact that the Educational Decree is literally covering everything else on the board, right? It’s saying that this is more important. This is taking over. All the things that Harry mentions, or that the author mentions that are also on the board, they are being covered by the Educational Decree.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: She’s taking over. It’s real… it’s a huge power grab, I guess. She’s exercising her insanely large amount of power.

Laura: So obviously, the trio are not the only ones who are in shock at this decree and wondering about how it’s going to affect their extracurricular activities. I think a second year comes up next to Harry and says, “Oh, I wonder if Gobstones Club will still be allowed.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Oh, sweet child.

Laura: And Harry was… or I think Ron was actually like, “I think Gobstones will be fine, but I don’t know about our thing, Harry.” [laughs]

Eric: Aww. Bless that kid’s heart. Little Gobstones fanatic.

Laura: I know, it’s so innocent, so pure, but that student was young and didn’t realize that Voldemort was back.

Eric: I picture it in a very Dickensian… like a Dickensian orphan is like, “Does this mean they cancel the Gobstones?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Oliver Twist?

Laura: Well, of course, for the trio I think the first natural conclusion to jump to is, “Okay, who blabbed? Who blabbed to Umbridge already? It’s only been a day.” And Hermione is like, “No, I don’t think so, because I did something to the sheet that everyone signed that would make it very obvious if someone blabbed to Umbridge or to anyone.” And that really then opens up the question for the trio, “Then who could it be?”

Eric: I’m glad this isn’t a mystery that lasts too long. They quickly realize that, “Oh yeah, there were a lot of other people in the Hog’s Head, and we could have been more careful, maybe.”

Micah: It’s a great insurance policy that Hermione decided to take out, but how do we feel about this underhanded move? Because it is underhanded.

Eric: Yeah, she did not tell them, “Hey, by signing up, you are under pretty serious penalty.”

Andrew: It’s a double-edged sword, because if she did tell people, they probably would have been less inclined to actually sign the piece of paper.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: On the other hand, by not telling them, then you’re getting everybody… then you’re really making sure that all the people who attended are not only signing the list, but going to be kept honest. So I don’t really know what the answer is here. I guess I would have said… I don’t know. I think Hermione did the right thing by not telling them.

Eric: Yeah, no, when we get to the Marietta chapter, I always feel bad for… situations being what they are and Umbridge being as awful as she is. But currently while reading this, I just feel like desperate times call for desperate measures. At least Hermione’s jinx was nonlethal. It was overkill; I know we’ve discussed previously Hermione’s character, what it says about Hermione’s character that she did this, but at least it was nonlethal. I’ll just say that.

Laura: Yeah, I tend to agree with that. Would this have been overkill if it were for their secret Gobstones Club? Absolutely. For this, I agree. Desperate times.

Eric: The stakes couldn’t be higher, kind of?

Andrew: Or how about some sort of charm where any time one of the people who signed the sheet try to speak about it, their voice becomes garbled or something like that? Why did it have to be a physical change to them? Like, “You can only talk about it if you’re talking about it to people who have signed the same sheet that you did.”

Eric: Like a Secret Keeper kind of thing? That would just be really advanced, though.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess.

Eric: You could do it, but only a few really talented wizards could do it.

Micah: Because I feel like then it’s clear who the rat is. If it was just a matter of muffling their voice, you would never really know.

[Andrew imitates an adult talking in Peanut]

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Versus the pimples, the acne, they last a little bit of time, and so you’d be able to see who actually ratted you out.

Andrew: I must have been a rat back in the day because I was getting a lot of pimples on my face.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: I’m realizing that’s why now.

Laura: You didn’t make the connection at the time?

Andrew: [laughs] No, I didn’t.

Eric: “I really ought to stop snitching on my friends… nah, never mind.”

Andrew: No wonder I’ve always had bad acne!

Eric: [laughs] Well, it cleared up, Andrew, so you must have gotten on the straight and narrow.

Andrew: Somewhat, somewhat.

Micah: speaking of placing blame, Ron is one who’s very quick to blame the students, but he forgets that he was in a public space with a lot of shifty people lurking about, and he doesn’t even think for a second that it could possibly be one of those individuals, so it just shows how his mind is right now.

Eric: What’s funny about Ron – and you’ve got to love him; he’s Harry’s loyal friend – but he wants to place the blame on somebody that has previously wronged him. I think that Ron is still upset over the Zacharias Smith encounter in the Hog’s Head, and so he wants to immediately have permission to jump to the conclusion that Zacharias Smith did this. “Who even are you, dude?” But he has no evidence, and he just needs to be like, “Okay, it’s not him.” Don’t freak out.

Andrew: Or Ginny’s new boyfriend.

Eric: Well, right.

Laura: Oh, yeah. So in retrospect, do we think it would have been smart for the DA to form under some kind of innocuous-sounding mission – like Gobstones Club, if we want to go back to that example – so that it would be less likely for Umbridge to have heard about all of this?

Eric: Yeah, I think the issue for me is that this was their first meeting. They did need the ability to, when first gathered, be like, “This is what we need to do. Let’s start a group for it.” As soon as they have that initial thesis statement or mission statement established, then they can call it whatever innocuous name they want. But because they were overheard right out the gate, there might not have been any avoiding this.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. I think they would have had to start smaller than they did. Probably the cardinal sin here is having their initial meeting with so many people; it just attracts a ton of attention.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And as Sirius brings up later, they should have done it in Three Broomsticks because there’s safety in numbers, and if you’re in a crowded space, nobody’s going to think anything of all these people gathering there.

Laura: Well, I wanted to ask for a make a real life connection and see if any of us were ever part of a student group that got disbanded.

Eric: I’ve never had one canceled on me. I had one fizzle out. There was a very short-lived barbershop quartet in high school.

Laura: Aww! [laughs]

Eric: A couple of guys wanted to get together and rehearse, and we had a few… I guess we could have been good. I sang bass. And we did a couple of practices, and then it just kind of… there was an unspoken agreement that it wasn’t going to meet again, and we all just kind of left one day without even saying proper goodbyes. [laughs] And then we never… or maybe it continued on without me; I’m not sure if I was phased out or what. But it was a lot of fun for maybe five weeks.

Andrew: Never a disbanded group, but this kind of reminds me of when my fifth grade teacher tried to stop us kids from reading Harry Potter in school, and the parents, including my mom, were not happy about that. So there were attempts to disband the love of Harry Potter from the students. Didn’t work out, though.

Eric: Love that.

Laura: Well, we know Harry is a rebel now, so he has no intention of letting Educational Decree 24 stop the DA or shut the DA down. Unfortunately, the Gryffindor Quidditch team is not a secret society, so that does get shut down. Angelina informs him soon after this that the Gryffindor Quidditch team has also been disbanded. We learn that Slytherin was able to get their team privileges back very quickly from Umbridge, of course, because favoritism.

Andrew: And as we see across this chapter, Umbridge is taking her time to decide if Gryffindor can resume Quidditch activities or not, while Slytherin has gotten approval. To me, I feel like this is just Umbridge’s way of making sure Harry doesn’t piss her off – he stays good; he doesn’t try to step a toe out of line – because if she continues to hold Quidditch, the whole team’s Quidditch practices over his head, he is not going to want to stoke the fire. He’s going to stay as good as possible.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just… this is wrong. Their freedom is limited, and a single person that’s placed in charge, that’s Umbridge, can decide to unfairly penalize one group they like and another they don’t. This also opens the doors for bribery, flattery, any manner of non-equitable practices that are really meant to just restrict freedoms and really encourage bribery and lawlessness.

Micah: Bribery? What do you do, dangle a kitten out in front of her?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I mean, maybe.

Micah: Maybe. Yeah, no question, it’s an issue of fairness, and there’s no reason if one Quidditch team was approved that the others shouldn’t be as well, right?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Well, Angelina speaks to her and she doesn’t give her a reason. She just says, “I’ll need to think about it.”

Micah: My question would be, who is Slytherin going to play against? Themselves?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, why not?

Andrew: Yeah, split the team up in half and do just that.

Eric: That’s one way to win the House Cup.

Micah: We don’t know, obviously, the status of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, but we have to assume that they’re probably in a similar category to Gryffindor. Maybe not to the extent of Gryffindor because of Harry, but it’s clear Slytherin got the fast track of approval.

Andrew: Well, and to your point, Micah, if I were McGonagall, I would be pissed about how unfair this is. Like you said, you can’t let the Slytherins play and other Houses not play. That makes no sense.

Laura: And unfortunately, the hits do keep coming for Harry. Not only is all of this happening, is he having to face the prospect of Umbridge really using the Gryffindor Quidditch team against him to kind of put him in his place… she’s trying to get him to remember what his place is, and the fact that he is inferior and that he is someone who is out of line just by existing. So not only is he dealing with that, but when he’s in History of Magic a little bit later, Hedwig very bizarrely shows up at the window trying to deliver a letter to Harry, which is unusual for her. She didn’t come with the other post owls at breakfast. And when Harry opens the window, brings her in – Binns, of course, doesn’t notice because he’s just doing what he always does – Harry notices very quickly that she’s hurt. Her wing is bent; her feathers are all jostled. It’s very clear that she’s in pain.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s disturbing; somebody is attacking Hedwig. I mean, Harry has already been attacked with the detentions, and now here comes… now his poor pet animal is being attacked as well. Nothing’s out of bounds here.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I mean, he’s got to be thinking about all the possibilities for who could have done this, right? Because he just had Filch cornering him a few weeks ago, trying to intercept his mail, so he already knows that someone’s watching or attempting to watch. And I think there are a number of culprits that you could point to. Micah, were you going to say something?

Micah: Yeah, it just goes back to earlier; we were talking about the fact that the walls are closing in. It’s not just the Educational Decrees; now it’s the fact that Hedwig has been attacked. Like you’re saying, Filch was clearly suspicious of him a couple of chapters ago. He was suspicious of him last chapter prior to going to Hogsmeade; he’s literally sniffing him as he walks by him. And we’re going to see as we progress through this chapter, Umbridge is literally in every one of their classes, and then, of course, she’s in the fireplace at the end of the chapter. So there’s no real safe space now for Harry to operate. There’s no safe space for him to exist as a student.

Andrew: No privacy. Privacy nightmare.

Laura: Completely. Well, Harry, of course, would want to take Hedwig to Hagrid before anyone else to help mend her, but he’s obviously not available. So Harry goes in search of Professor Grubby-Plank, goes to the staff room, and when he meets with her about mending Hedwig and observes that he thinks Hedwig has been attacked, she looks at Hedwig and drops this piece of foreshadowing in saying, “Thestrals will sometimes go for birds, of course, but Hagrid’s got the Hogwarts Thestrals well trained not to touch owls.” And this is so funny because right after, Harry’s inner monologue is literally like, “I don’t know what Thestrals are, and I don’t really care.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: But it’s like, no, actually, you do want to know what they are.

Andrew: What I had forgotten was that it takes Harry so long to actually put a term on these creatures he had seen earlier in the book, whereas in the movie, doesn’t he learn right at the beginning? When Luna is like, “They’re called Thestrals”?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It’s pretty early.

Andrew: This is an ongoing mystery in this book.

Eric: Well, right, it’s funny because in Book 3, Harry sees the Grim all year, and he’s trying to not believe that it’s the Grim or something; he’s going away. Now he’s got this other mystery creature that he doesn’t know anything about that maybe only he can see. I don’t know. Yeah, you’d think that he would want to learn what they are, absolutely. I was impressed by the vote of confidence here from Grubbly-Plank; she gives Hagrid a compliment, essentially. It’s not that they ever had beef; they absolutely probably never did, but we like to pit them against each other because Harry is so pro-Hagrid, so aggressively pro-Hagrid. But it’s nice to see Grubbly-Plank give that, by her estimate, Hagrid did a great job with the Thestrals.

Micah: Right, but not as professor for Care of Magical Creatures. As the groundskeeper of Hogwarts, that would be one of his responsibilities, right? To keep the Thestrals in check?

Eric: Well, given that they’re employed by the school… yeah, that’s interesting. It probably crosses both territories.

Laura: Grubbly-Plank strikes me as an extremely professional person who’s not going to have beef with her coworkers, and she’s not going to walk into Hagrid’s classroom and have an automatic assumption of superiority for her own skills, or think to compare and contrast herself. She just seems happy to be there, honestly.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it reminds me we were talking about her a few chapters ago when Umbridge was watching her lesson.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: She wasn’t mad that Umbridge was there, and when Umbridge is like, “Oh, you’ll get your report back in a week,” Grubbly-Plank just goes, “Jolly good. Okay. Time for a cup of tea.” She just doesn’t care. She’s just there for the ride and enjoys teaching, clocks in, clocks out, doesn’t overthink it.

Micah: But I wouldn’t cross her. There’s something about her… she smokes a pipe. She has a badass element about her.

Laura: Oh, yeah, I agree.

Andrew: It’s “Plank” in her name. I think she’s a pirate.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Or Wilhelmina, right? That’s her first name that we learn in this chapter?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Laura: As they’re having this interaction, and before Harry leaves Hedwig with Professor Grubbly-Plank, McGonagall asks Harry where that letter came from, and she kind of has her eyebrows raised, looking at Harry suspiciously. Harry says, “London”; she immediately understands that to mean Grimmauld Place, and she pulls him aside and basically says, “Hey, Harry, all the channels of communication in and out of Hogwarts are being monitored, so please do keep that in mind while you’re writing letters to and from your escaped convict godfather.” [laughs]

Andrew: As evidenced by your owl.

Laura: Yeah, exactly. So Harry now has confirmation that his letter could have been intercepted. I think he kind of tries to lie to himself and say that it wasn’t, because I think we see later on in the chapter how that turns out. But there is this moment that I felt as a pet parent. In this interaction, as Harry hands Hedwig over to Professor Grubbly-Plank and he starts walking away from them, Hedwig has this reproachful look on her face, like, “You’re leaving me with a stranger?!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “And you’re going on vacation?!” That’s what my dog thinks.

Laura: Right. So I was going to say, do any of us relate to this feeling as pet parents?

Eric: Oh, yeah. As a cat owner, my cat Martha… I really have been thinking about her a lot during the read-through of this chapter, because I would hate for her to be injured. How fragile tiny animals are compared to human strength… to realize what must have happened to Hedwig was that Umbridge manhandled her is devastating. When somebody that you don’t know or like manhandles your animal like that… there are very few instances where I would commit a homicide, but that gets me close. Do you know what I’m saying?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Do you, really, though?

Andrew: Yeah, you get defensive and you want to kill somebody. [laughs]

Eric: Who would hurt an animal, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: You’re a big, big, weak person to do that.

Laura: Listen, I like my dog more than I like most people, and I will leave it at that. [laughs]

Eric: Okay, yeah, you won’t couch to commit a homicide maybe one day, Laura?

Laura: Maybe I will, maybe I won’t.

Eric: Okay, all right. Well, because you know if this were Hogwarts Legacy, you’d be casting that AK.

Laura: Oh, that’s true. Totally.

Andrew: I think we can reel this back a little bit. I mean, we’re basically talking about the equivalent of leaving your dog with a petsitter or a vet, not a murderer. [laughs]

Eric: Okay, in that case… no, but I’m talking about the injury that caused her to need…

Laura: Yeah, who attacked Hedwig.

Andrew: Okay, got it.

Eric: But no, whenever I leave… when we take Martha to the vet, she’s meowing. [imitates Martha] She doesn’t really understand where she’s going in the car in the little carrier, and it’s devastating because we keep saying, “Hey, it’s okay. We’re taking you…”

Andrew: That’s the same noise Micah makes when he leaves me, actually.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s so funny.

Micah: Yeah, separation anxiety from Andrew is really tough on me.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I totally understand where Hedwig is coming from, right? And it’s the same thing as being separated from Andrew.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But the reality for Hedwig, though, is it would actually be different if it was Hagrid, because she knows Hagrid. Hagrid was the one who gave her to Harry initially, right? So at least there’s some sort of relationship there. But this is also the staff office, and who knows if Umbridge is going to find her way into the staff office at some point and see Hedwig there being treated by Grubbly-Plank, right? And we were presuming that it was Umbridge, or at least on Umbridge’s orders that Hedwig was attacked, so wouldn’t that be scary for Hedwig to potentially come face-to-face again with the person who did this to her?

Andrew: Absolutely. And we see that in the Muggle world too; an animal gets abused, and then they don’t want to be touched. They don’t want to… they hate all men all of a sudden. They never forget that type of thing.

Laura: Right. Once Harry ascertains that Hedwig is in good hands, he finally gets to open his letter from Sirius, and the message is really simple and vague. Just says, “Today, same time, same place.” Same fireplace, as a matter of fact.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: But Hermione here is quick to make the connection about Hedwig probably being intercepted, and floats this idea – like we just mentioned a few moments ago – of Harry’s letter being read and magically resealed, that it would be very easy to do. Harry is kind of in denial about it, and she even goes so far as to suggest that the Floo Network could be monitored as well, which Harry should be thinking of, because McGonagall literally just told him channels of communication are being monitored.

Andrew: Yeah, but at the same time they’re kind of stuck, because they can’t get a message back to Sirius. He’s going to be showing up in that fireplace, whether they want him to or not. It is too bad; this whole scenario got me thinking Hedwig and other magical animals should be able to communicate better with humans somehow, using a spell, a charm, brain waves… something. You would think there’s magic to allow a witch or wizard to read the mind of a animal or their pet, their designated pet.

Laura: Well, I’m sure Hedwig is probably thinking, “You can do magic; why don’t you fix me? Why are you leaving me with a stranger?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “You heard of Skele-Gro?”

Eric: Listen, Harry never had a proper healing class in Care of Magical Creatures. He’s still only in his fifth year.

Laura: Hedwig doesn’t care about that.

Eric: He should have learned to do it, though, because she’s been mistreated before by the Dursleys. And in fact… well, and here’s the other thing: If Grubbly-Plank or whoever the Care of Magical Creatures teacher is would pay regular wellness checks to the owlery, then all the owls would be familiar with her.

Laura: True.

Eric: Who’s actually watching after those owls and their wellbeing?

Micah: Nobody. It’s a free-for-all.

Laura: [laughs] Just their owners.

Eric: Dung on the floor… yeah.

Micah: And Andrew, you brought up the point, though, that Sirius is going to show up no matter what. But couldn’t Harry have gone to McGonagall to send a message to Grimmauld Place?

Andrew: Oooh.

Micah: Presumably her communications aren’t being watched, at least not yet, and we know that the Order communicates via Patronus, so perhaps there was another way around this. I mean, I feel like we’re going to go back and forth on this a lot throughout Order of the Phoenix, in terms of communicating with Sirius and whether or not he should show up in certain places.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, maybe Harry didn’t want to tell McGonagall that it was Sirius who wanted to come knocking; that’s my only guess. I think your point is good otherwise.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: You feel like it would have gotten both of them into trouble probably?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I don’t know, though; I feel like McGonagall would be able to put two and two together because she knows who the letter is from, and she’s like, “By the way, all channels of communication are being monitored.” I think it would be a pretty easy guess to make.

Micah: But Sirius lives for that risk, though.

Laura: He does.

Micah: I don’t think it would deter him all that much.

Laura: We’ll see that in his character later on when they have their Floo conversation. But for now, we need to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors, and then we will be back to talk about why Neville has had it!

[Andrew laughs]

[Ad break]

Laura: All right, and we’re back. And first of all, a theme in this part of the discussion, and what I’ve titled this part of the discussion, is, “Why is this [censored] everywhere?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: She’s everywhere! Does she have a Time-Turner? I just feel like she’s everywhere.

Andrew: This is her job! Hogwarts High Inquisitor.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She’s got to be everywhere.

Eric: She takes it very seriously.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Well, unfortunately, she is pretty much literally everywhere, as we will see throughout the rest of the chapter. But to poor Neville… when they go to Potions there is this fight that very nearly breaks out, because Malfoy at one point gloatingly suggests that Harry is going to have to be carted off to St. Mungo’s soon to a special department that cares for people who’ve had their brains “addled by magic.” And of course, we know to Neville, that’s his parents that Malfoy is making fun of, and of course, Neville launches at Malfoy. Harry knows why. Nobody else seems to know why, because Harry is, I think, one of the few people who knows this particular backstory of Neville’s at this point. But Harry and Ron do stop him before he can do any damage. Snape still takes points from Gryffindor, like you do.

Eric: Ugh, of course.

Laura: But what do we think of what Neville does here?

Andrew: I have no issues with it, but I do think this scene is a good reminder to everybody that you never know what somebody is going through, so you can’t say things like this. You can’t insult, let’s say, somebody’s personal appearance; you never know what’s hiding underneath the surface. So to me, that’s what struck me about this; it’s that this cuts deeply for Neville. And Malfoy, I would like to think, in his later years regretted saying such a thing, but at the same time, Malfoy is a bully, so this is just what he does. But yeah, I have no issues with how Neville reacted. Malfoy deserved it.

Eric: I feel like it is ultimately a good thing that Harry and Ron have to pull him back, if for no other reason than that Crabbe and Goyle were waiting, and you know that they would hit Neville harder than he’s able to get to Draco, so nobody would have come out of that better off. But I think that the genuine flash of surprise on Draco’s face shows that he himself was maybe not expecting the effect of his words, to Andrew’s point, and that’s unfortunately the kind of thing… it’s the kind of reaction you need to keep giving Malfoy, because he’s never going to stop. He says wildly inappropriate things about everyone all the time later on the Quidditch pitch, which actually does lead to a fist fight that gets Harry expelled permanently from Quidditch. So I just feel like unfortunately, Malfoy’s personality, the only way he’s going to learn is by having people react the way Neville is reacting.

Micah: I agree. Yeah, it’s a perfect example of where making a joke can have unintended consequences. And I don’t think any of us for a second believe that it would be beneath Malfoy to poke fun at Neville’s parents. I don’t think in this moment he has a clue.

Eric: Agreed.

Micah: I don’t think it’s ever been probably communicated to him by his father that Neville’s parents are in St. Mungo’s; I think it just happened to be one of those situations where he said something. And he’s lucky that Harry and Ron were there, because I do think he would have been able to get at Malfoy for a period before Crabbe and Goyle decided to step in, because they only step in when they see Harry and Ron hold back Neville. But one of the other things that I think is really important to mention here, though, is just the fact that Harry has stayed loyal to his word to Dumbledore to not tell about Neville’s parents. Even in this moment, he could have explained to Ron and to Hermione why Neville did what he did, but he chooses not to, and I think that’s one in Harry’s column.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Speaks to his character.

Micah: Versus Dumbledore, who just lies to Harry constantly.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: But Harry can keep a secret; he knows the big impact this has on Neville. Honestly, if I was in Harry’s shoes, I’d probably tell Ron and Hermione. They’re my besties. We’re the trio, right? You tell your bestie everything, pretty much. I would tell my bestie this.

Laura: Oh, I don’t know. I feel like if somebody comes to me with something that is this horrific and asks me to keep it secret, I will keep that secret. If, I don’t know, it’s something that’s very much low stakes and isn’t going to have impact if I tell my partner, I’m like, “Oh, guess what Andrew told me today?” That’s different.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Guess what Andrew told me? Micah purrs when he leaves him.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I love that.

Micah: But that’s well known, isn’t it?

Andrew: [laughs] Now it is.

Laura: Yeah, it’s not a secret.

Andrew: No, I just think that Harry can trust Ron and Hermione with any secret, so by extension, he’s allowed to tell them this. I respect Harry for keeping the secret, but I also think he could be more open with Ron and Hermione, and it’d be okay.

Laura: Well, he’s not being Wormtaily, okay?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Yikes. It has to get so personal, Laura.

Micah: But this is part of Neville’s glow-up, too, right? In this book.

Laura: Yeah, it is.

Micah: This is one of the steps in that direction.

Laura: I wonder here if Neville understands the family connections at play with his parents. Because I genuinely agree; I don’t think that Malfoy knows what happened to Neville’s parents, and if he knows what happened to them, I doubt he knows that his auntie did it. But I wonder if Neville has made the connection that not only is Malfoy saying this horrible thing, but he is the nephew of the woman who did it.

Eric: Could be.

Laura: That makes it even worse, even if Drago doesn’t know. [laughs] Well, we finally do get the show that Harry was hoping for in terms of showdowns between professors. We have Umbridge v. Snape today in Snape’s Potions class.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And this just makes me think of the iconic montage in Order of the Phoenix that we get with this wonderful moment of Alan Rickman perfectly delivering the energy of this scene, when Umbridge is like, “You’ve applied for Defense Against the Dark Arts x number of times? And you’ve been unsuccessful?” And he’s like, “Obviously.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: When I read over this for this chapter it still made me smile, because I thought back to that scene.

Andrew: It’s classic.

Laura: It was so well done. But yeah, she obviously points out that while he has taught Potions consistently during his tenure at Hogwarts… and it’s very interesting to me, because with Trelawney and Snape, there’s a specific point made to make sure that both of them say exactly how many years they’ve been there, which they’re both very important to Harry’s story.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: So that’s interesting from a plot perspective. But when she asks Snape, “Why do you think the headmaster has not given you the position?” and Snape says, “You should probably ask Dumbledore about that.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: But ultimately, we know this is because the chess master ain’t going to put Snape in the cursed position until the opportune moment. He loves his opportune moments.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He loves ’em.

Laura: How would he explain that to Umbridge?

Eric: Well, whatever Snape said to explain it would have repercussions on her in that role, because she’s about to be ousted for that same curse. If she has any misgivings about staying in the role she’s currently in teaching DADA at Hogwarts, she has another thing coming, but why would he do her the favor of telling her that?

Laura: Well, Umbridge also kind of compliments Snape. She says, “This class seems pretty advanced for their level,” but then she also suggests that the Ministry would prefer Strengthening Solutions be removed from the curriculum, and a Strengthening Solution is what it sounds like it would be; it’s a potion that makes you physically stronger. Why do we think it is the Ministry doesn’t want students at Hogwarts learning this?

Eric: I don’t know.

Andrew: They don’t want the kids to turn into a version of the Hulk, right? And take down Umbridge.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The Society for Hulk Prevention.

Andrew: And any other Ministry… [laughs] Society… yeah, what’s the acronym there?

Eric: SHP.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, I like it. Yeah, and I mean, in terms of complimenting Snape, I wonder if this is more setup for Harry and the reader to further think that Snape is a bad guy; we can’t trust him. “Umbridge is signing off on Snape? There’s more proof that he sucks.”

Eric: Yeah, that’s not bad. Although, if he were being openly horrible to one of his students, as he usually is, I’m sure she’d give him even higher marks somehow, right? This is a pretty innocent lesson from Snape’s standpoint; they’re just doing a thing. But yeah, if she saw him really in action, she would fall in love, I think.

Laura: Eugh.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t think that’s what he wants.

Eric: You know, he needs someone to take his mind off of Lily.

Andrew: What’s worse, the love affair of Voldemort and Bellatrix, or a hypothetical affair between Snape and Umbridge?

Eric: We need a Broadway show based on the Snape and Umbridge relationship.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Snape and Umbridge.

Andrew: [imitating Snape] “I love you, Dolores.”

Laura: Voldemort/Bellatrix is horrible, don’t get me wrong…

Andrew: [imitating Snape] “You are the apple of my eye. You are the pink apple of my eye.”

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: [laughs] No, thank you.

Eric: Well, I’m kind of upset that Snape, just for… not devil’s advocate, but just sneakily… because Umbridge has a rare moment of being candid right now when she says the Ministry would prefer they maybe didn’t do Strengthening Solutions. He could very reasonably ask her why that is, and he doesn’t. And because as a reader, you kind of want to know what… it’s implied… you can guess what the reason is, as we all just did, but I wonder what Umbridge would say the reason is. Because that’s almost…

Andrew: And Snape must know too.

Eric: But that’s an indefensible kind of position, as a comment. It’s very damning for Umbridge to make that, because it’s very… on the surface level, why wouldn’t you want the students to be able to brew something that would maybe help keep them out of danger?

Andrew: Yeah, she is kind of saying the quiet part out loud.

Laura: Yeah, and I think it’s probably a case of Snape not asking the question because he already knows the answer.

Andrew: But I do think it would still be interesting to hear how Umbridge would spin it, to Eric’s point. Because I agree, Snape can figure it out himself; he’s a smart dude. But what happens when you put Umbridge on the spot like that?

Micah: I wonder how much direction, if any, Snape got from Dumbledore to just play along with Umbridge when he was being evaluated, because we know how important Snape is to Dumbledore and to this story. He doesn’t want to risk somebody like him getting sacked. Though I don’t think that would ever happen with somebody like Umbridge, because I feel like the Slytherin connection probably is important here too.

Laura: I agree. Yeah, because Umbridge is… I’ll say that I think she’s kind of going easy on Snape by comparison to what she does to the other teachers. Even Trelawney – who we’re about to talk about in a second – we know she’s not a great teacher. We know that she’s probably not really qualified to be doing what she’s doing. But Umbridge humiliates her in front of her students again and again, and we haven’t even gotten to the worst of it. So speaking of, she’s not having a great day because she got the results of her inspection back from Umbridge, and she’s not taking it well because it turns out she’s on probation.

Eric: Yeah, this hurts. This hurts to see.

Andrew: It does. It’s interesting watching Hermione react to this, too, because Hermione knows just how big of a fraud that she is. But reading this scene and looking at the headlines these days, I wanted to just make a real world connection statement. Trelawney is genuinely a fraud, at least part of the time, but what teachers are going through right now in the school is similar to what’s happening to federal employees in the US government, where they’re being asked to justify their work and prove their work, prove themselves worthy. And I just wanted to mention this because there are times where these books really… we can really tie them to what’s going on in the real world, and here’s an example of something that’s happening in these books and in the real world right now that we really haven’t connected before.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I mean, Umbridge is using the guise of better educational reform. What she’s really trying to do, and what she’s succeeding at, is kneecapping Dumbledore. That’s why she’s appointed; that’s what she wants to do. And it’s unfortunate that somebody Trelawney, who is admittedly a complete fraud, is nevertheless… she has feelings and they’re hurt, and it makes her even less of an effective teacher, if something like that were even possible.

Andrew: Yeah, because then you’re second guessing yourself.

Micah: Well, and in both cases, you have individuals who are requesting this information that really don’t have the criteria to even be in this position in the first place.

Eric: Right, Umbridge is not an educator. She is tasked with evaluating educators, okay?

Laura: Yeah. She was appointed by the Minister…

Eric: For being cutthroat.

Laura: … who is also not an educator. [laughs]

Micah: Sounds similar to present day situations.

Eric: Nobody’s qualified.

Laura: Yep, lots of real life connections that we can make here.

Micah: We won’t go any further than that, because…

Andrew: Thank you.

Eric: It would just depress us.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We’re here to make magic.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, we can feel bad for Trelawney for what she’s experiencing here. Even I think that it’s a little bit overboard. I think Trelawney… you take her for what she is, but you also understand that she’s been doing this for 16 years now, right? And she’s never been put on probation before now. So I can understand why it would be a shock to the system if you’ve been doing this job for all that time, and even if you know you’re a fraud, but you’ve still been showing up, and you’ve been doing well enough to not get put on probation, that sucks!

Micah: One of the things that stood out to me was that she is taking it out on her students a little bit. We see it with Neville. She’s physically assaulting him; not intentionally, but there is something to be said for that. However, I think a lot of what she is going through – the emotion that you’re talking about, Laura – it’s coming from the fact that it doesn’t seem like she’s getting any support. She’s been loyal to Dumbledore for these 16 years. Where is Dumbledore? He should be stepping in here. Obviously, he steps in at the most crucial of moments, but why not have him be supporting her in some capacity here? That’s where I think a lot of her frustration probably… because she goes on this rant and she talks about her dedication for so long of a period of time, and yeah, I’d be pissed off too.

Andrew: To back up my boy AD, is it possible that Albus has been talking with the professors offscreen? “Hey, just go along with what they’re doing right now. We don’t want to rock the Ministry boat too much, so we just have to sort of ride this out for a little while.” And maybe Dumbledore also met Trelawney down at the Hog’s Head to maybe get another prophecy out of her and comfort her.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Maybe.

Eric: They just missed that large group that was in there the other day.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, I can think of another way in which Dumbledore failed, though – sorry, Andrew – and that’s because Trelawney has been teaching for 16 years. We know she’s a fraud, but she could be operating under the delusion that she’s a good teacher because she’s been doing it for so long at this point that it’s become second nature. The problem is, if she was a substandard version of teacher the way that essentially Hermione encountered back in Book 3… and we’ve all known her to be just bad at teaching the subject; you don’t even need to be a real Seer to be able to effectively convey these methods that they’re using. It’s just she doesn’t… we never see Harry take it seriously, that she actually is inspiring within anyone – other than Lavender and Parvati – the desire to actually use this subject. It is a full-on branch of magic, and so Dumbledore should have, long ago, given her some level of coaching. We understand she’s only there because she is strategically valuable, because she heard the prophecy and she could be tortured into revealing it to Voldemort, which would be bad. But if you’re going to have somebody be this teacher here, go and give them the education and the skills to be able to actually teach the subject that you’re appointing them to. Otherwise, the second that a evaluator comes in, they’re going to do exactly what Umbridge did! I’m not saying Umbridge did the right thing, but we can see why Trelawney is now in hot water for not being a great teacher, even at surface level. At the very least, if Trelawney were a good teacher, you’d have more students rising up in outrage against Umbridge for putting Trelawney on probation. As it stands, that doesn’t happen.

Laura: No. I mean, as a student, you really couldn’t come to her defense, because it’s true.

Micah: I do think it’s important, though, that you differentiated between the fact that she’s not a fraud as a Seer, because she is a Seer, right? She’s a fraud when it comes to teaching, but how is that any different from somebody like Hagrid? And we could talk about that, but Hagrid is not a good teacher either, but we don’t… I mean, we do see him ultimately suffer the same fate as Trelawney, right?

Eric: No, that’s such a good point. I forgot… but the way you put it is right. She’s not a fraud as a Seer…

Micah: No.

Eric: … except she thinks that she is. Dumbledore has allowed her to think that she is a fraud, which, if he had actually just told her, “Hey, you made a legitimate prophecy; I can’t tell you what it was, but you did make one,” I think that would have, 16 years ago, gone a long way to boosting her confidence, which she lacks so deeply, and maybe would have helped her on her journey to being a good, competent teacher.

Laura: Well, and we also know she makes a second correct prophecy in Book 3, and I’m guessing Dumbledore never tells her this.

Eric: But that would be huge news, but she doesn’t remember making them and so as far as she knows, she is… she’s operating under the illusion that she is a false Seer and could not live up to her ancestry line.

Laura: Yeah. Well, I think probably she folds under the societal expectation that a Seer should be able to just predict the future on the spot at command, kind of like Umbridge tried to do. And probably the reality is that maybe that’s not how it works for Seers. Maybe it’s really actually normal for Seers to only have a handful of visions in their lifetime.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: But we never get really any clarity on how that works.

Eric: Yeah, and I mean, no one alive today probably remembers a Seer that they knew and how it worked.

Laura: Yeah. Well, moving forward a little bit to the main event of the chapter, we find the trio in the common room. Fred and George are onto another phase of their Skiving Snackboxes, and we’ll chat about that a little bit in the odds and ends. But after everyone has gone to bed and only the trio remain in the common room, Sirius just appears in the fireplace, and he confirms for the trio that, at least from the Order’s side of the equation, they were overheard in the Hog’s Head by Mundungus. And even though he gives them a little crap for starting an illegal self-defense group, he’s looking at Harry with pride. He doesn’t have a problem with what they’re doing; he’s just very quick to tell them, “Oh, sweet children, this is so cute. Clearly, you’ve never formed an illegal society before. Let me help you.” [laughs]

Andrew: “You’ve got a lot to learn, Hermione.”

Laura: Yeah, she does. That’s what we talked about.

Eric: He even says, “Should have done it in the Three Broomsticks.”

Andrew: Yeah, I loved that he said that to her. [laughs] “And I think it’s great that you did this, but Molly doesn’t, so Ron, she wants you to be better.”

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: The whole Molly thing is really interesting to me, because Sirius is relaying the message that Molly wants Ron to not participate in this secret group. She knows that Harry is behind it with Hermione’s help; she knows that the three of them are putting this together because all that info she would have heard from Dung, and she does not approve. She tells to Ron, via Sirius, there will be plenty of time later for him to learn defensive magic, which means in a few years. My question for you guys is, is Molly in the same Order of the Phoenix as everyone else that’s talking about Voldemort being back?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There is no three years from now! “There’s plenty of time later to learn defense.” It is an outrage what Umbridge is doing to classes.

Andrew: [imitating Hagrid] “It’s a scandal!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: These students need to learn defense! I understand Molly is worried, but how can you possibly justify her giving this message to Ron to just not participate? Because that puts him in harm’s way! Everything she’s hoping doesn’t happen to any of her children are going to happen if they can’t defend themselves.

Micah: To layer on to your question, Eric, how is her request any different than Percy’s?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Rough.

Micah: He’s just the messenger, right?

Eric: Well, right, because…

Andrew: I think Molly is stuck between a rock and a hard place. She’s part of the resistance, but she’s also trying to be a mother, and I think that’s probably a really difficult position for her to be in, the mother of a child who’s also best friends with Harry Potter. There’s a lot at play here.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. I think the thing is… I think where Molly goes wrong here is she doesn’t offer any alternatives, like to come at him and be like, “Hey, I understand. I want you to be able to help too. Let’s talk about some other ways that you can help that are not as dangerous as this.”

Eric: She’s downplaying the threat, is the problem. Maybe not fully consciously, but that’s what it amounts to. And I think the difference between – to answer your question, Micah, or to try to, because it’s a great question – what the difference is between what Percy says to do and what Molly says to do is that Percy tells Ron to go straight to Umbridge and confess everything Harry is doing.

Micah: That’s fair.

Eric: But Molly, in telling Ron not to join Harry and Hermione and the resistance, is essentially telling him to not be an effective resistor, is to lay down and allow the takeover of Hogwarts and everything to happen, is to be in some way complicit in the disarming of students in a time of great terror, so… they’re similar.

Andrew: She could have said something like, “Hey, I don’t want you to do this at the school. How about you come home? How about you come to 12 Grimmauld Place, and we’ll teach y’all some lessons there?”

Eric: Over Christmas break.

Andrew: Christmas break. A Christmas in training.

Laura: Yeah, that’d be a good idea.

Eric: Well, Harry could learn from Lupin again! It would be utterly amazing.

Andrew: Yeah, that would sell Harry on the idea, I’m sure.

Eric: Ah, that would be so good.

Laura: Definitely.

Eric: “Hey guys, why don’t…?” Yeah.

Micah: I don’t think it’s necessarily a fair place to put Sirius in either, delivering this message on her behalf.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I do think, though, at the same time, it speaks to what was brought up about the fact – Andrew, you mentioned this – Molly is in a tough spot, right? She can’t convey this because she’s on guard duty right now, and we know what she’s protecting, but also her family is so immersed in the Order. Arthur is in constant danger. We don’t know what Bill and Charlie necessarily are up to, but the fact that… go back to “The Woes of Mrs. Weasley” earlier in this book. She’s trying, in this moment, to do everything that she can to protect her family, and she recognizes the risk that somebody like Umbridge poses at Hogwarts, and she doesn’t want Ron stepping in it, so she’s trying to control the situation as much as she can.

Laura: True. It is a good point, because as you pointed out, literally everyone in the Weasley family is in danger in one way or another. And she’s probably thinking, “At least four of my children are at Hogwarts, which is probably one of the safest places for them to be, as long as they just keep their heads down and mind their business.” It’s probably out of frustration, too, I have to imagine, that she’s like, “Can you just not put yourself in danger, please? I have too much to worry about.”

Micah: 100%.

Andrew: Yeah, and none of us are parents here, so I want to include this comment from Michelle, who’s listening live on our Patreon tonight. She said, “I identify very much with Molly in this book as a mom. I would protect my kids at all costs, even if they are mad at me about it. She just is terrified something will happen to them. It is the worst nightmare.”

Laura: Totally.

Micah: Yeah, and we’ve mentioned this in a couple of episodes, too, but Molly lost two brothers in the previous war, and that has to be sitting in the back of her mind at all times.

Andrew: 100%.

Eric: And they could defend themselves.

Laura: Well, before Sirius can be much help in figuring out other locations for them to have DA practice, a certain stubby-fingered hand appears in the fireplace, kind of reaching and raking through the coals. Sirius even seems to sense that it’s coming in the fire; they see him looking around and looking behind him.

Andrew: He felt a little tickle on his backside.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] Oh, God, please. I don’t need to imagine Umbridge doing that either.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But this is just confirmation, again, of something Harry was told a few pages ago, that the Floo Network, just like every other channel of communication at Hogwarts, is being monitored. This is not a way for them to talk to Sirius. It’s not a way for them to talk to anyone, unless they go to Umbridge’s office, but they’ll do that later.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: How much information do we think Umbridge is able to get this way? Can she see and not hear? Can she see and hear everything?

Eric: It’s weird. Maybe she… because Sirius looks around a minute before it happens, like he hears her come in the room kind of thing maybe, so Sirius is probably…

Andrew: Coming down the chimney. Ho, ho, ho! Hem, hem, hem!

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: She’s probably making a lot of noise, yeah. But no, the thing I appreciate the most is that Sirius has some level of sixth sense about it, and because he doesn’t have that sixth sense sooner, it indicates to me that she just joined the call or the conference or whatever, so that she would have heard very little, but enough to know who it was who was speaking to the Gryffindor common room.

Micah: My sense was always that she could sense that the Floo Network was being utilized in that particular part of the castle, so she knew somebody in Gryffindor tower was utilizing the Floo Network, but beyond that, I don’t think she knew who it was or what kind of conversation was going on.

Andrew: I agree with that take, because it’s described as her kind of thrashing around, trying to grab hold of something, which implies to me she doesn’t have a full handle on who is speaking, what is being said. She’s still trying to reach for it, grab it somehow, if that’s even possible.

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I was wondering. Would it be possible for her to touch Sirius somehow, via Floo Network?

Andrew: There’s a lot I would like to know about how this all works.

Eric: I think she could pull him through the fire into her office.

Laura: Oof, terrible.

Eric: And then kill him.

Micah: That would be bad for her, honestly. It wouldn’t go well for her.

Eric: You just don’t know, right? Yeah, the implication, I think, because her hands are swatting at him, or trying to grab him, I think she could put… the funniest use of the Floo Powder is the toast in the mouth of Amos Diggory, but it can get a lot more sinister than that.

Laura: Yeah, definitely. Well, that’s the end of our chapter, but we will get into our MVP of the Week and some odds and ends here.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: So for MVP of the Week, I have a question for y’all related to this very topic of Umbridge coming through the fire: What is the best way to react to Umbridge crashing your secret Floo call with your escaped convict godfather?

Andrew: I would try to slice her hand off and then throw water on the fire.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Wait, what? You just have a stray knife?

Andrew: I’d grab the sword of Gryffindor and thrash it about, yeah, and then throw water on the fire.

Eric: Yeah, that could close the call. That would be like hanging up. I like it. I have a more of a comedic response. “Oh, shit, it’s the po-po!” And run, tripping over the back of the armchair behind you.

Micah: For me, look, it’s three on one. Pull that bitch through the Floo and light her ass up.

Andrew: [laughs] God.

Laura: My goodness, this went so much more violently than I imagined.

Andrew: I know.

Eric: I’m looking forward to all the bleeping that has to be done in post.

Micah: I was going to say maybe have Crookshanks lick her fingers and then she wouldn’t stick her hand in there anymore, but she likes cats. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but she likes cats.

Eric: Oh, Crookshanks could get at her. That would be fun.

Laura: See, I was going to go the Hogwarts Legacy route here and cast Glacius on the fire to freeze the fire, as well as Umbridge.

Eric: I like that a lot.

Laura: To be like, “Try that again.”

Andrew: Me too.

Micah: That’s the PG version of all this.


Odds & Ends


Laura: And now we’ll get into some odds and ends here quickly. First thing: I wanted to call out the Sloth Grip Roll in Quidditch. This was something that Angelina called out as them needing to practice, and I just got a kick out of imagining what this would look like.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: We’ve talked about this before, but the founders of Hogwarts thinking boys were untrustworthy. There is this moment in the chapter where Ron tries to charge up to the girls’ dormitory and the stairs turn into a slide, which he thinks is unfair, but Hermione is able to give him, I think, some pretty contextually appropriate reasoning for why that happens, based on when the castle was built. Crookshanks, very interestingly, during this sequence where Sirius is in the fire, is trying to get his face close to Sirius, and at one point Hermione even has to scoop him away from the fire to keep him from singing his whiskers.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: We’ve talked about before how Sirius and Crookshanks have a special bond, and we don’t get to see it a ton, but in moments where these characters are in the same space, Crookshanks takes the liking to Sirius that I don’t think he takes to anyone else.

Eric: Even Hermione.

Andrew: It’s really sweet.

Laura: Yeah, it is very sweet.

Eric: Yeah, Crookshanks was Sirius’s only connection to Hogwarts and the students when he had to be still outside the castle.

Laura: Yeah. And we briefly mentioned this in the discussion, but Fred and George are in the common room, and they seem to have found a new way around all of Hermione’s rules about advertising and testing their Skiving Snackboxes, and it’s to test them and demonstrate them on themselves, so they are literally demonstrating, over and over again, Puking Pastilles.

Eric: This is gross.

Laura: Yeah, one of the twins is just repeatedly barfing into a bucket, [laughs] and the other twin gives him the other tab so that he gets better again, and he’s just doing this over and over again. But they’re making a ton of money, and even Hermione has to admit begrudgingly that they’re not breaking any rules.

Eric: That she can find.

Andrew: But she also says that their skillset is useless…

Laura: Wrong.

Andrew: … when Harry wonders why they hadn’t done better on their OWLs, and I just found this so ignorant and book smart of her to say. They are street smart, and I know the activity that they’re participating in right now isn’t the sexiest thing to be doing…

Eric: Uh, it’s the opposite of that.

Andrew: … but you’ve got to look at the bigger picture here! They’re inventing very original products that students are entertained by. And yeah, they didn’t read about these in a book, but it doesn’t mean they can’t be successful with this skillset.

Eric: It’s just a failure of imagination on Hermione’s part if she can’t find something to get them to stop right now. She says they’re not breaking any rules she could find. Guess what? What about disturbing the peace? They’re retching repeatedly! The smell has got to be awful; the sound is distracting. Kids are doing homework in the common room, or trying to, and there has to be some level of disturbing the peace or just being freaking gross that… if I’m not even a prefect, I would go up to them and get them to stop somehow. This is just awful.


Lynx Line


Laura: Well, we also like to ask a question of the week of our supporters over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast, so we’re going to move into the Lynx Line now, and this is, again, our weekly question for listeners over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And this week’s question is what did Mundungus Fletcher do to get banned from the Hog’s Head 20 years previously?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: We learn that Mundungus was disguised as a witch in the Hog’s Head; that’s how he overheard what Harry and company were doing, and he’s in disguise while he’s monitoring Harry because he was banned from the sketchiest pub in town 20 years ago. Whatever this is, there is a grudge that runs deep here, because it does not seem like Aberforth is very discerning about his clientele. I think he’s happy to have anyone in there. [laughs]

Andrew: Let’s hear some theories, then. Xavier said,

“My guess, knowing Dung and Aberforth, is that Dung tried to steal and sell one of Aberforth’s goats.”

[Eric gasps]

“Seeing this, Aberforth exploded and let out a century’s worth of rage and anger.”

Eric: [laughs] Whoa!

“He hexed Dung out of his mind, and a battle broke out, which gave the pub its unique aura of unkemptness, and at the end of the battle, Dung gets banned from the pub. The message here is, NEVER MESS WITH ABERFORTH’S GOATS.”

Andrew: … in front of me.

Micah: Never, never.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow. Robert wrote, “Obviously, Dung told Aberforth that dogs are better than goats. He barely left with his head after that.”

Micah: Zachary, perhaps Zacharias Smith, says,

“As vile as Mundungus is, I’d like to believe he was doing the right thing this time by trying to liberate the poor goats. And by liberate, I mean steal them to make a profit, yet saving them from the perverse accusations against Aberforth in the process.”

Eric: He’s saving their honor.

Laura: The goats’ honor. Rachel says, “It absolutely had something to do with goats.” So many goats answers to this question, but don’t worry, there are some non-goat related answers coming up.

Eric: I love how you separated them. [laughs]

Laura: Yes. Yeah, I wanted us to be able to run through all the goat answers, because I knew that was going to be half of them, at least. So Rachel goes on to say,

“Maybe instead of stealing one, he slipped some goat hairs into Polyjuice Potion and gave it to Aberforth so Aberforth could be a goat. Obviously, that didn’t go well, since it’s not meant to be for animal transformation. Furious and humiliated, Aberforth banned Mundungus.”

Andrew: Mev, Jason, Ning, Catie, and Justin shared various theories about Dung stealing, selling, offending, and being caught alone with the goats, and also petting the goats.

Laura: “Petting” in quotation marks.

Andrew: “Petting” in quotes.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So those are all the goat answers. How about the non-goat responses, Eric?

Eric: Yeah, Badgerforth says, “Probably stole a cauldron.” And yeah, seems simple, but seems plausible. And Eleanor says,

“I suspect it was something very mundane. Fencing stolen goods! But that’s not so fun… I have an image in my head that won’t go away of party animal Mundungus dancing on the bar and swinging from the chandeliers. I think he could have a secret alter ego that comes out at times, but is perhaps not quite the right vibe for the Hog’s Head.”

That’s fun.

Micah: Angela said,

“Aberforth was doing some inventory in a different room when Mundungus snuck in and set up an unsanctioned karaoke event. He locked Aberforth in the stock room for a few hours while the Hog’s Head inn turned into the wild party place to be. Mundungus even decorated it all with brightly colored decorations. It was so popular, cheerful, and full of witches and wizards having so much fun. Aberforth was furious when he finally got out that he banned Mundungus, and Mundungus was heartbroken, which led him to become who we now know today.”

Laura: Wow. Rachelle says, “He was definitely ‘nicking things’ (mugs, etc.) to resell.”

Andrew: And finally, Emily said,

“He got caught trying to sell stolen crystal goblets that he had previously stolen from the Hog’s Head. Aberforth wasn’t even mad about the theft, but at Dung’s complete stupidity. And the Ministry is still holding the goblets for ‘evidence,’ which explains the dingy glasses there now.”

Laura: Oh, yeah, that explains the dirty glasses.

Eric: It’s a theft deterrent, yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Laura: I love the idea that the Hog’s Head at one point…

Eric: [laughs] Was fancy?

Laura: No, no, it was still decrepit as hell, but had these fancy goblets.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Great responses as always, everyone. And listeners, don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line benefit every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. There’s a link in the show notes, so please check it out. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We’ll be having our next Muggle Mail episode at Episode 700, so just about a month away. We’ll celebrate that milestone episode of the show, read some emails, and we’ll plan a fun segment or two to celebrate the occasion. Next week, Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army” will be discussed.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question was: In the mid 20th century United Kingdom, pint glasses replaced what type of drinking vessel commonly made of glass, ceramic, or pewter? The correct answer is tankards, everybody, tankards, so Hagrid’s tankard is only a few years out of date. And 36% of people say they did not look that up, and this week’s winners are Buff Daddy; Granger Things; A Healthy Breeze; The Firewhisky-ordering prefect; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; Lock in Lockhart; and Hagrid’s “pint glass of mead” doesn’t have a great ring to it. I agree.

Micah: Where’s Tofu Tom?

Eric: Tofu Tom must have taken the week off. We saw him in the Slug Club… oh, you know what? It might have been an incorrect guess.

Laura: And now you put Tofu Tom on blast?

Eric: I didn’t want to put him on blast; I just…

Micah: I love Tofu Tom. It’s always so nice when the Quizzitch winners, at the very end, you hear “and Tofu Tom.” It’s like the completion of another week’s worth of MuggleCast.

Eric: Wow, that’s really touching.

Laura: Yeah, the show’s not complete is what Micah is saying.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: And Tofu Tom will want to know what next week’s Quizzitch question is. Okay. What bird did the Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages? It’s relevant to this past chapter. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on the MuggleCast website, maybe checking out our must-listens page or our transcripts, click on “Quizzitch” from the top main nav.

Andrew: If you would like more podcasting from the four of us, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for additional pop culture and real world talk. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, we’re talking Nintendo Switch, which just turned eight years old, and we’re looking at what we would like to see from the Switch 2, which comes out later this year. Then over on Millennial, we’re discussing why Kindle users are mad about how Amazon is treating their ebooks, and we’re talking tipping culture in America. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for two decades and counting, and there are a few great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear, including Laura’s pants, hats, hoodies, T-shirts, all kinds of things. Apple Podcasts users can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And then for those benefits and more, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get access to the benefits I just shared, plus our livestreams, Lynx Line participation, a physical gift every year, a personal video message from one of the four of us that we record just for you, and you also get access to our Facebook and Discord communities. Lots of benefits to check out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Another great way to help us out is by leaving a review of the show in your favorite podcast app, or telling one of your Muggle friends about the show. No matter how you support us, we really appreciate it. We’re just an independent podcast, and we’re looking for support any way you are willing to help us out. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’ll see you next week. Watch your fireplaces.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #694

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #694, Rookie Rule Breaker (OOTP Chapter 16, In The Hog’s Head)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books, share the latest news, and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. And this week, grab a few quid and a dirty bottle of butterbeer while we discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “In the Hog’s Head.” I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: I actually brought a Hog’s Head glass to the recording tonight…

Laura: Ahh.

Eric: Whoa!

Andrew: … from the Wizarding World theme parks, yes.

Eric: Ah, man.

Micah: What kind of brew is inside of your mug?

Andrew: I was tempted to actually put beer in this, but it’s just my usual Celsius energy drink that I drink while podcasting.

Micah: What flavor?

Andrew: It’s one of the berry ones. Are you into Celsius now, Micah?

Micah: No, I’m not.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Micah: But I know that there are different flavors.

Eric: I haven’t ever seen it outside the can.

Andrew: Me neither.

Eric: Andrew, are you sure you grabbed the right glass and not the other glass that you keep in your office for emergencies? [laughs]

Andrew: I’ve got to say, I’m not a huge fan of the color. I, too, never see this drink outside of the can, so…

Micah: Well, in fairness, it is a mug from the Hog’s Head, so even if the liquid was clear that you poured into it, it was tainted by whatever Aberforth failed to clean out of that mug.

Andrew: This has been sitting in my cabinet unused for years, so I’m definitely drinking dust tonight.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m very impressed. I have mine in my cabinet; I didn’t think of it.

[Andrew laughs]


News


Andrew: Well, before we get into the chapter, we do have a couple of news items. First of all, Scholastic has announced the interactive illustrated edition of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. The first three books were done by MinaLima, and a few months ago – maybe a year ago now – we told everyone that MinaLima was stepping off the series; they weren’t going to finish it. It was surprising. We didn’t know why. We still don’t know why. People were mad because people love MinaLima; they created all the art in the Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts movies, and they did a great job with those illustrated editions. Goblet of Fire and presumably onward is illustrated by Karl James Mountford, and will have paper-engineered elements designed by Jess Tice-Gilbert. Have you guys looked at the art yet? It looks very similar to MinaLima, so they’re continuing on with the artistic style.

Eric: Yeah, kind of one of our biggest questions was how do they continue this series without – this sounds nuts, but – infringing on MinaLima’s IP in a way?

Laura: Right.

Eric: Because MinaLima had evolved and grown with the movies and the books and the story of Harry Potter for so long that it’s hard to imagine this sort of product taking over for the MinaLima books and not looking a lot like MinaLima. So it looks very deliberate. It looks very nice.

Andrew: It does.

Eric: But yeah, you can see the influence, and I’m just hoping everything works out okay in the courtroom.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I’m sure that this has run through some lawyers. [laughs] I was wondering that too. But yeah, you definitely see the similarities, and yet you do see differences in the designs of the characters.

Laura: Yeah, I agree with that. They might have also cut MinaLima a check for it, for the style, for the influence. Also, they might be getting royalties off of these later editions; even if they didn’t necessarily design them, clearly the design was influenced by theirs, so there could be a deal there for them.

Micah: I don’t want to be a party pooper, but I’m not here for this.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Okay. No, that’s a good take.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: I’m somebody who is very much open to collecting different illustrated versions of the Harry Potter series, and I want to continue with MinaLima, but if they’re not continuing, I’m not continuing with their…

Eric: Ohh, loyalist!

Andrew: Okay, so that’s what’s left a bad taste in your mouth. It’s not necessarily the art that we’re already seeing in these early previews.

Micah: No, I’m sure these are two very hardworking people…

Andrew: I get it.

Micah: … but something doesn’t sit right with me about this.

Andrew: You’re a fan of MinaLima, you wanted MinaLima to continue the series, and now they’re not a part of it, and you’re out. I get it.

Eric: Yeah, I’ll probably be in the same boat. It is funny to read the press release surrounding this sort of thing; it includes the line, “As the US publisher of Harry Potter, it’s exciting to see J.K. Rowling’s beloved series illustrated and reimagined by a talented group of international artists over the years, including Mary Grand-Pré, Brian Selznick, Kazu Kibuishi, Jim Kay, MinaLima, Ziyi Gao, and now Karl James Mountford,” and it’s like, “Oh, don’t worry. MinaLima was just one of nine other artists that we have.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Like they’re not the biggest name in illustrated Harry Potter stuff. “They’re just one of the international artists we’ve worked with before; now we have this new one.” It’s like, okay, downplay the significance of this departure.

Laura: Well, and also, how sketchy it felt, to be perfectly honest.

Eric: It was a bit weird.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Andrew is going to keep me honest, though. In mid to late October, he’s going to look at my bookshelf and say, “Micah, what is that that I see there next to the Prisoner of Azkaban illustrated edition by MinaLima?”

Andrew: Right. Yeah, so the book does come out October 14, 2025. Pretty pricey: $49.99! By comparison, Prisoner of Azkaban was $39.99, and Sorcerer’s Stone and Chamber of Secrets were $37.99. So as the books get longer, the price gets steeper, I guess.

Eric: Yeah, the page count doubles.

Laura: I get it.

Andrew: I get it, I guess. $50 for a book? That does feel really steep.

Laura: Yeah, but it’s an illustrated edition. It’s not just a book.

Eric: True.

Andrew: How much was Jim Kay’s? Let’s see… $48. Okay, so comparable. Plus, this one has interactive elements, so that’s where that extra $2 goes. [laughs]

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: Plus it weighs about 20 lbs.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. And while we’re on the subject of illustrated editions, I just wanted to mention that we still don’t know who’s going to carry on the Jim Kay illustrated series. He did up to Book 5, and Book 5 was co-illustrated by Neil Packer, so maybe he’s taking it over. But we still don’t know who, and there’s only two books left in that series. That’s the one I’ve been sticking with, the one I’ve been loyal to, so I’m eager to hear when Half-Blood Prince is coming.

Eric: Part one or part two?

Andrew: [laughs] Stop trying to make that happen. It’s not going to happen.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Also wanted to mention that Cursed Child is going on tour over the next year, and our listeners may know that already, but new cities for the tour have been announced in recent weeks. It’ll be in Boston this November, followed by Atlanta, Laura, in February 2026…

Laura: Oh.

Andrew: … followed by Minneapolis in April 2026. It’s currently in LA and it’s going to head to DC this summer. Laura, I shouted you out because you actually haven’t seen Cursed Child yet.

Laura: I have not, no, so that’ll be my chance. Is the show going to pay for me to go?

Andrew: Is Cursed Child paying for you to see Cursed Child?

Laura: No.

Andrew: Is MuggleCast? Yeah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Probably.

Eric: As long as you spend less than $419.32, I think this panel will be okay with it.

Laura: Okay.

Micah: Yeah, I think it’s only fair, considering that the three of us saw Cursed Child on behalf of the show.

Laura: True. I was half kidding; I was trying to basically go for a, “I’ll go if the show pays for me to go.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Maybe we could get you a press screening, Laura.

Laura: Oh, that’d be cool.

Eric: Andrew, that number was the price of tickets when it was two parts that we saw it for my 30th birthday.

Micah: And it was opening night.

Andrew: Ohh, okay.

Laura: I look forward to actually getting to see the good stuff about Cursed Child because it really… by all accounts, you just have to see it, and actually beholding all of the elements is the experience, and just don’t pay too much attention to the story.

Andrew: Right, yeah. No, it’s definitely worth seeing. If anybody’s been considering it, on the fence about it, I would definitely recommend it. It’s way better an experience than reading the script book, and the magic is very impressive. And I’m interested in seeing this leaner version of the show myself, so I definitely want to see it again; I’ve only seen the two-part version. And Micah, you have a news item for us too?

Micah: I do. So I was traveling for work last week, and apparently I wasn’t the only one, because I was out in San Francisco for the All-Star game, and I found out that Emma Watson didn’t let me know that she was going to be at the celebrity game.

Andrew: Ahh.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And this is an event that takes place the Friday night of All-Star Weekend.

Andrew: NBA All-Stars.

Micah: NBA All-Star, yes. And she was in Oakland; I was in San Francisco, so I wouldn’t have been able to make it over, but if I knew she was going to be there, I probably would have made an exception and asked to go to the celebrity game versus the event that I was at on Friday night.

Andrew: All right, this is a mix of fanboying and humble bragging. [laughs]

Eric: We’re going to write an article for missed connections on behalf of Micah and Emma not meeting up at the All-Star game.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: But what I found interesting is that they played this up as a very rare public appearance for her. She’s not somebody who is normally out and about…

Laura: No, you’re right. She really isn’t.

Micah: … the way that we may see some other Potter stars.

Andrew: But that goes to show you how big a deal NBA All-Stars is. Emma is emerging from her cave and attending a basketball…

Laura: [laughs] Her cave?

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s this rare public appearance.

Laura: You think she lives in a cave?

Andrew: Where is she hiding normally? I don’t know. Where is she hiding? This is according to E! Online.

Micah: Isn’t she studying for a master’s degree?

Laura: I think she and her brother recently came out with their own gin. I don’t think she’s hiding.

Andrew: What?!

Micah: See, Andrew, she’s clearly not communicating with you either. You didn’t even know she has her own gin.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m a huge gin fan.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, damn. I’m going to Total Wine tonight to see if I can find this.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Oh, it’s only in the UK, it looks like. Darn. All right. Well, luckily for me, I’m going over there in May, so I’ll try it then.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right. Well, sorry, Micah, that you missed Emma. Better luck next NBA All-Stars.

Micah: I’m more angry at some colleagues who didn’t give me the heads up. That’s who I’m really mad at.

Andrew: There you go. Well, as we continue to analyze the books and share news with everybody and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support, listeners, at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your financial support allows us to focus more time on the show and less time in the Muggle world, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits like bonus MuggleCast episodes, a new physical gift every year, ad-free episodes of the show, and access to our exclusive Facebook and Discord groups for Harry Potter fans and MuggleCast listeners, so be sure to check that all out. Again, it’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and thank you to everybody who supports us; we really appreciate it. Coming soon in a bonus MuggleCast, I review Emma Watson’s gin.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I can’t wait. The hunt for Emma Watson’s gin across all the UK.

Micah: I think that would be great content.

Laura: Yeah, actually, we should.

Andrew: All right, I’ll make a note of that. So the show’s going to buy me the gin and Laura the Cursed Child ticket. [laughs]

Eric: Look, Andrew, while you’re there, pick up some for the rest of us.

Andrew: Okay.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: All right, well, without further ado, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “In the Hog’s Head.” But it’s not the first time, right, Eric?

Eric: That’s right; we last discussed Chapter 16 on Episode 452 of MuggleCast. The title of that episode was “Essence of Goat,” which I think perfectly describes what goes on in the Hog’s Head. And that episode is from February 4, 2020. Here is the clip.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 452.

Micah: “… with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.”

Eric: [laughs] Hey.

Andrew: Hmm, why is that?

Micah: I wonder why.

Andrew: And I love that his first words to Harry was just, “What?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Because this is the antithesis of Albus Dumbledore. Albus Dumbledore: well-spoken, has all these amazing lines… and then Aberforth’s first word is, “What?” It’s just a perfect contrast.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, really throws you off the scent. Did any of us, when we were reading this book for the first time, suspect that this was Dumbledore’s brother?

Andrew: Right. No.

Laura: I didn’t.

Andrew: If Aberforth walked up and said, “What do you want to drink? It is our choices that tell us who we really are.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That would have been suspicious.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: Well, there was no other chapter I’d rather return to MuggleCast for than this one.

Eric: Welcome back, Micah.

Micah: Such an appropriate chapter for us to discuss this week. And look, we start things off; we’re headed to Hogsmeade, but not before we get sniffed at a little bit – literally sniffed at – by Filch. So does everybody not have contraband on them as we head to a little time off here in the Hog’s Head?

Laura: No promises.

Andrew: No, sir. Let’s do it.

Eric: [laughs] Laura is just…

Micah: Andrew, I’m wary of you. I’m afraid you’re going to get us stopped for some reason, and Filch is going to pull you over to the side.

Andrew: Excuse you. I got nothing to hide.

Micah: Well, you’ve all heard of Hogwarts: A History; now it’s going to be time for the Hog’s Head: a history. I figured we could have a little bit of fun with this Hogsmeade dive bar.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: What?

Andrew: I guess it is a dive bar.

Micah: It is a dive bar.

Laura: It is totally a dive bar.

Micah: At night, that place is popping.

Andrew: [laughs] Seedy as hell.

Eric: This is one of the places I would not actually take a dive in on any circumstance. If my face is that close to the ground, I’m going to throw up.

Andrew: It probably does not smell nice in there.

Micah: Well, it depends if you like essence of goat.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: If you don’t, then it probably doesn’t smell great at all. It probably… are we thinking it smells like when you go to a petting zoo?

Eric: Maybe. Stone floor with tons of… I don’t know; I imagine hay, a hay-like scent, but just a buildup of grime over a hundred years. Yeah, I think that’s probably not far off. Also, people smell. That’s just a general fact, too. It doesn’t need to smell so much like animals; if they don’t have proper cleanliness, it’s going to be the stuffiest kind of just grimy bar in every way imaginable.

Andrew: I imagine it smelling like Bourbon Street in New Orleans. It smells like several things I don’t want to have to bleep on the show, so I won’t.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It just smells very nasty there. Anything that could come out of the human body, that’s what Bourbon Street smells like.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: You think that’s what the Hog’s Head smells like, though?

Andrew: Yeah!

Laura: I don’t think people are having raves at the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I don’t think they have Bourbon Street energy in the Hog’s Head, to be clear.

Andrew: I don’t know. Well, all right, all right, I do like the farm idea. I could definitely imagine it smelling like hay, I think Eric mentioned.

Eric: Yeah, maybe like sour milk.

Laura: Oof. Yeah, maybe like a cross between a petting zoo and a dive bar, because that’s basically what this is. [laughs]

Micah: Well, the official text says that “It was not at all like the Three Broomsticks, whose large bar gave an impression of gleaming warmth and cleanliness. The Hog’s Head bar comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty room that smelt strongly of something that might have been goats. The bay windows were so encrusted with grime that very little daylight could permeate the room, which was lit instead with the stubs of candles sitting on rough wooden tables. The floor seemed at first glance to be earthy, though as Harry stepped onto it he realized that there was stone beneath what seemed to be the accumulated filth of centuries.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Eugh. That’s terrible. Has anyone ever experienced that?

Eric: Laura, you typically enjoy a dive bar.

Laura: I do love a good dive bar. I can’t say that I’ve ever been in one that was quite this filthy, but I think it’s to be expected in a dive bar environment that it’s not going to be gleaming, shining, beautiful in terms of the environment. It’s going to be a little grubby. It’s going to be a little grungy. But you can get some good beers there. Actually, one of my favorite…

Andrew: It’s going to be dark. It’s going to be cozy. It’s going to be cheap.

Laura: Thank you. That too.

Micah: And a little odorous.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: For sure. You can count on that there. [laughs]

Andrew: Bourbon Street.

Eric: Well, I will say – this is maybe a slight preview of next week’s Quizzitch question – but in general, the UK is full of these pubs that have been there for over a hundred years. You can actually find pubs that have been in operation since the 1800s.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. That’s one of the amazing things about England and the UK, all the old bars.

Eric: Yeah, so that casts it in almost a pleasant light in the sense of just tradition. Like, “My grandfather drank here every night” kind of a thing.

Andrew: Laura, you have a dive bar recommendation, right?

Laura: Oh, yeah. So actually, one of my favorite dive bars is in New York City; it’s in Greenwich Village. It’s the Old Rabbit Club. Micah, if you’ve never been, you should. They have so many amazing beers from around the world, and it is this cramped little basement, clearly intended to be used for storage, and somebody just turned it into a dive bar. But it’s really, really good.

Andrew: I also have a New York dive bar recommendation. Laura, you and I have been there. It’s called DBL: Dive Bar Lounge.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Let’s just say Dumbledore would be a big fan of DBL.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Micah, I think you should go for research purposes. It’s in Hell’s Kitchen.

Micah: [laughs] And report back to you?

Andrew: Oh, look at this – I’m not even joking – just around the corner is a coffee shop called the Jolly Goat Coffee Bar. This was made to be.

Laura: It’s meant to be.

Andrew: Aberforth can hang out at the coffee bar and Albus can hang out at DBL. This is the slowest-moving Chapter by Chapter ever.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You know what? This is actually maybe the most faithful way of discussing this chapter, as a matter of fact.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: We’re all looking at different types of bars.

Eric: “What are your favorite bars? In what ways are they similar to the Hog’s Head?”

Laura: I mean, it does set the scene for what’s about to happen.

Andrew: It sure does.

Micah: It does, because despite its appearance, part of the allure is the fact that it isn’t all that appealing to the average person, right? And we see a lot of business go down here throughout the course of the Harry Potter series. There’s even an event that is rumored to have taken place all the way back in 1612, the goblin rebellion. The Hog’s Head was supposedly a hideaway of sorts for witches and wizards during this rebellion.

Eric: I’d rebel too when I got a look at these cleanliness standards.

Micah: Well, you clearly want Umbridge to come here and investigate and clean it up, right?

Eric: I think she could just straighten it out a little bit, yeah. I think she could shape people up.

Micah: But I would say for us, the most notable event that’s taken place here prior to the meeting of Dumbledore’s Army is the prophecy. This is where Trelawney delivers Harry and Voldemort’s prophecy to Dumbledore to an eavesdropping Snape. It takes place just above the pub here in the Hog’s Head.

Eric: Yeah, this is such a storied place, and it’s almost… I don’t know, humble origins. This is like where Christ’s manger was.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s that level of destitute, and just totally… you would never suspect, but everyone who’s here uses this place for exactly what it offers. The students use it because it’s a way to not be overheard, but – asterisk – only by the people that they don’t want to be overheard by. [laughs] They’re overheard by all these spies. As it turns out, everyone in there that’s not a student is pretty much working for somebody else, which is how their secret gets out, but that’s getting ahead of ourselves. But the people that are in here prefer it in here for what it’s offering, and Hagrid is a regular; he also prefers the clientele that this place attracts. They’re the sort of people who are more likely to have a hidden dragon egg for trade on them than the kind that are right off the main drag.

Micah: Right, this is where that conversation takes place between Hagrid and Quirrellmort. And we know, of course, coming in Deathly Hallows there’s a secret passage that is created from the Hog’s Head to Hogwarts for the members of Dumbledore’s Army to be able to communicate regularly with Aberforth, so lots of good things coming out of a place that smells like goats.

Eric: And you almost forgot to mention, Micah, that you and I first tried Firewhisky in the Hog’s Head.

Micah: Oh, yeah. That’s right.

Eric: Down in Orlando.

Andrew: And I just showed off this cup; I got it at the Hog’s Head.

Eric: Yes!

Andrew: And I have to say, this is one of my favorite places to hang out at the Wizarding World lands. It’s sort of like how it’s described in the books. It’s dark, it’s cozy, it’s clean… thank goodness.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You don’t have to worry about any unwashed cups, and the floor is squeaky clean and all that. But it’s a nice spot to hang out, and there’s even a back patio. If you’re looking at the bar, you turn to the left, you can get onto a back patio, which is a quiet spot if you’re trying to catch a break from all the hustle and bustle, so yeah. Oh, and the literal hog’s head hanging behind the bar comes to life every five to ten minutes or whatever it is, so it’s a good spot.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really cool. And for all the reasons that you tend to avoid theme parks, the Hog’s Head section of that theme park is the respite from the main crowd. There could be hours long waits to get into or get food at the Three Broomsticks, but the small room off the side of it that’s the Hog’s Head, maybe there’s a line out the door 5-10 people deep. You’re served; you get a drink, at least, in 20 minutes.

Micah: And there’s a bit of an underground drink menu, right? I feel like we’ve ordered off of that a couple times.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a secret menu. I’m trying to remember.

Andrew: I think they do have hard liquor, but they don’t advertise it?

Eric: I think that’s it.

Andrew: Don’t quote me on that, but I think that’s what’s going on.

Eric: Yeah, I think somebody told us to get a Long Island Iced Tea, and it was the strongest Long Island I’ve ever had. [laughs]

Micah: Well, it was very helpful for me in terms of being able to get onto Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure.

Andrew: Helpful?!

Micah: Since I am not a roller coaster person.

Andrew: Oh. That’s an easy roller coaster, though. And I hate roller coasters; if I could do that Hagrid one, you can too.

Micah: Okay. Well, I did, with the help of the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I will say my favorite hack that I’ve done is I’ve brought in a plastic shot of Fireball and then I order a butterbeer at the Hog’s Head, and then I dump the little thing of Fireball into the butterbeer, and then I have an alcoholic butterbeer to enjoy at the Wizarding World. Because I think, as most people know, when you order butterbeer at the parks, it’s not actually alcoholic, unfortunately, for us adults.

Micah: Well, the Hog’s Head is a quieter space, which means that the group that is gathering here is much more easily overheard. So while it is off the beaten path and secluded, it’s certainly more noticeable when a group of Hogwarts students are there on their free weekend. So while Hermione may have had the right thought initially about where to gather, was this the right choice?

Laura: No, it wasn’t.

Andrew: Really?

Laura: And obviously we know Hermione gets called out for this later, but I honestly think they would have done better to meet up at the Three Broomsticks or somewhere where it was more common for students to be gathering. In an environment where it’s already really loud, it’s going to be harder for people to overhear you. You’re not going to look out of place; you’re not going to raise any questions for anyone. It’s kind of like being hidden in plain sight.

Eric: I like that for sure, that aspect of it. Yeah, ultimately this is still early stages, so the fact that they met up and had a meeting and were seen and overheard doing so, there’s still not, ultimately, a lot of info to report on them. It’s best that they get this out of the way and then immediately find a more secluded place to actually do the meetings, which is what happens. But had they had to have another type of meeting here, it wouldn’t have worked, and all of the details of everything they were attempting to do would have been leaked to the very least people that they wanted.

Andrew: I do like this from a creative perspective, though, in terms of the author’s choice, because I think it does symbolize… the Hog’s Head symbolizes the underground nature of their meeting and their intentions. It’s this dark, seedy place with mystery people. This is a… they’re undercover, if you will, at the Hog’s Head, making some plans that their superiors would not like them to be making, so I just like it from a symbolism perspective.

Eric: I like that. I mean, it’s exactly the sort of place you’d expect something subversive to be getting off the ground, except in this case, it’s students trying to get educated.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It’s all about that going underground feel, exactly that. And yeah, I think it would actually be really natural for someone this age to think that this would be the right meeting location because of all of the ways that we’ve described it. But as people who’ve reached adulthood, I think we would choose somewhere else.

Eric: I mean, Madam Puddifoot’s is another common place where it really wouldn’t be too out of place. Also, the Three Broomsticks does have that room upstairs that Flitwick and McGonagall and Cornelius retire to. I understand that you probably have to speak with Rosmerta, but we know that her sympathies would probably… somebody somewhere – maybe Fred – gets on really well with Rosmerta, so they could probably use that room.

Micah: [laughs] What does that mean?

Eric: I just mean he has a good rapport.

Micah: Oh, I can see that.

Andrew: See, I don’t think the issue is necessarily the location; it’s Hermione shrugging off the idea that Umbridge or somebody else could be at the Hog’s Head right now. This comes up in this chapter; Harry or somebody says, “Could that tall woman over there be Umbridge?” And then Hermione is like, “Umbridge is shorter than that woman.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Okay? So Umbridge is walking around on stilts to disguise herself; something like that could feasibly happen in the wizarding world. Umbridge aside, there could be somebody else there who shouldn’t be overhearing what they’re talking about. Lucius could be there, for all we know, under one of these cloaks. It just seems very irresponsible and out of character for Hermione to not be suspicious of who is exactly in the bar at that moment.

Laura: Well, she’s out of her element, honestly. Hermione doesn’t really have street smarts.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Laura: And I feel like she kind of bit off more than she could chew here, because we see how nervous she is when she’s finally up in front of everyone, and it’s her job to pull everybody together and explain to them why they’re here. She kind of realizes she maybe didn’t… at least it seemed to me she realizes she didn’t prepare as much as she should have.

Eric: When you take that into account, it makes more sense that she’s leading with this magical security that she has with the list, the fact that she protects what they’re doing the only way that she can. There’s a lot of elements that she can’t control, the fact that it’s so tight with her spellwork on the contract that they sign, and locking them in in that way maybe accounts for – or she assumes will account for – the backup. But I’ve got to give props to Hermione anyway because Harry is making this damn near impossible. She has done him a real solid by putting him up to this, saying that she thinks he would be a great teacher, and even though he’s flattered or likes the idea, he still doesn’t say anything for two weeks after that gets suggested, and she has to prod him, and he snaps at her, and she’s like, “Oh, and don’t snap at me,” and he’s like, “Oh, I’m not,” but he wants to. The fact that she makes this happen, she goes around, she does the outreach, she gets all the people from all the Houses to actually show up, and manages to do so up to this point undetected… Hermione is the MVP here. Yes, she does not account for everything, but this would not have happened were it not for Hermione, and then including all of the future things that she does to make the DA happen, like the coins… I’m just very impressed by… this book really wouldn’t have worked without her.

Laura: Totally. And I don’t think anyone here is criticizing her by any… because at the end of the day, she’s a child in this moment, and it’s actually really incredible – to your point, Eric – that she does accomplish everything that she accomplishes with the DA from the beginning.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: They really end up doing the exact thing that Umbridge and Fudge are afraid that they’re going to do, and that is forming Dumbledore’s Army. And I think that Hermione definitely should get credit for organizing all of this, but may have been a little bit shortsighted in picking the location. We, of course, as adults can sit here and debate the pros and cons of doing it at the Hog’s Head…

Laura: Of course.

Micah: … but there were real concerns that should have been in the back of her mind, especially when Harry was raising it, which somebody brought up earlier. And we do know – and we’ll talk a little bit about this later on – that there are two people, actually, of importance that overhear these conversations. One goes to Dumbledore; the other goes to Umbridge.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: So it really is surprising that Hermione wouldn’t have taken that a little bit more into account. Though I will say, going to a place like the Three Broomsticks or someplace else that’s well known within Hogsmeade… this is not a small group of people.

Andrew: [laughs] No.

Micah: This is 25 people congregating together, so that in and of itself likely would have drawn some attention as well. But I do want to briefly talk about… I know we referenced Aberforth in our MuggleCast Time-Turner segment, but the person at the bar who looks vaguely familiar to Harry. I know Harry has a lot on his mind here, but he couldn’t give it a little bit more thought of “Why does this person look familiar to me?” And nobody else sees it either? Not Ron, not Hermione?

Andrew: It’s a fun little Easter egg teasing what’s to come and who it actually is. But again, you think about this space. It’s dark in there; there’s a lot of people around. Harry is probably a little nervous about this upcoming meeting. He’s not thinking totally clearly about who this could potentially be, so I forgive him for this.

Eric: Yeah, if he were bored out of his mind, not there doing anything else, and found himself with a few hours to kill, he’d nail it. He’d know exactly who this guy was. But that’s sort of also the brilliance of how – again, getting back to the manger scene here – you wouldn’t expect the brother of Albus Dumbledore, renowned wizard, to be found in this place.

Andrew: No.

Eric: Why it works that Aberforth is spying for Albus, too, and his brother, is because nobody would suspect. They usually… I imagine ne’er-do-wells would go into this pub to do something that is not going to be known or noticed by Albus Dumbledore specifically, and that’s the brilliance of it all, is the fact that… yeah.

Micah: Yeah, because his brother is there spying, most likely.

Eric: Well, exactly.

Micah: When they’re on speaking terms, of course. So Eric, you were talking a little bit about this earlier: Harry’s thought process in whether or not he should teach Defense Against the Dark Arts. And eventually, Hermione does get him to come around, and he does say he’s given it quite a bit of thought. And I’m wondering, is there a part of him – knowing that he is part Harry, part Horcrux, and that Voldemort so much desired to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts – that maybe part of this is the Horcrux, part of it is Harry? Or maybe not, but I wanted to throw it out there.

Eric: I think he doesn’t go into this like he does so many other things, with a vengeance or an anger of wanting to get Umbridge. The rebellion thing is a side effect, essentially. The rebellious tone that Dumbledore’s Army takes, and the sort of tongue-in-cheek rebelliousness, is ultimately secondhand. If Harry wanted revenge for what Umbridge did to his hand and was therefore starting this group, I would suggest that the Horcrux is deeply involved in his decision-making here, but this seems to be almost like a bright light into the purity of Harry, and his ability to escape Voldemort to this point comes from the light side. Though, maybe the dark. But I think right now, it’s probably not the Horcrux, in my opinion.

Andrew: I agree with that as well. Harry is always an adventurous person; he’s up for trying new things. He’s a born leader. We see in this chapter he’s subconsciously planning out lessons after Hermione dropped the seed in his head. And I think he’s inspired by his friends, too, to lead this class. He knows they need him. He probably is flattered that they think he could lead a class. So yeah, I just think it’s in Harry’s character to actually realize that he wants to lead this class.

Laura: I was just reflecting on Harry’s experiences earlier in this book, where he was really jealous of Ron and Hermione being prefects and feeling like he didn’t have anything he was being celebrated for, and he was going through that running list in his head of all the things he’d done that Ron and Hermione hadn’t done, and he finally had to sit back and admit to himself, “I’m better at Quidditch, but I’m not better at anything else.” And I think that kind of tanked Harry’s morale for a while there, so it’s actually good to see him realize, “Oh, I do have something that I’m good at. I do have something else that makes me special.” So I’m going to vote not the Horcrux.

Andrew: I think Micah’s Horcrux is making him think it’s a Horcrux.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: You think dark.

Eric: It’s always a worthwhile question to ask, especially in this book.

Laura: Oh, yeah. We should always ask.

Eric: I do feel for Harry, though. I mean, he’s spent all year so far feeling so maligned because nothing short of the Minister for Magic is calling him a liar, and he’s still having to contend with that. In fact, at one point, he says to Hermione, “Oh, I understand now why everyone’s here. They want to hear me talk about this situation.” He feels like he didn’t earn it.

Andrew: Yeah, and in the case of leading Dumbledore’s Army, this is something that’s in Harry’s control. Eric, you were just talking about the Ministry coming for him, the Prophet coming for him, coming for Dumbledore. Here’s something he can take into his own hands, seize the opportunity, and right the ship. Set the record straight.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: In these uncertain times, this is something that he can actually take on, and maybe it’ll be a good distraction, too, and it’s his way of clapping back and responding to the Ministry and Umbridge and the Prophet. And I think it was really cool to see Harry feel inspired to teach this class when he started subconsciously thinking of these lessons. I think we should all be so lucky as to have these moments in our lives where we get these ideas in our head and we get so excited about them, we just can’t stop thinking about them.

Micah: Totally. And one of the things that is really great about the group that shows up is that it isn’t just Gryffindors – it’s Hufflepuffs, it’s Ravenclaws – and he almost gets pumped up by the conversation that starts happening. They’re really building him up, talking about all the things that he has been able to achieve over the course of these last couple of years, and in many cases, it’s coming from some of the most unlikely of individuals, right? Susan Bones – who expected her to be somebody who throws out the fact that Harry can produce a full corporeal Patronus?

Eric: He doesn’t even know her!

Micah: Right.

Eric: Some stranger is like, “Hey, he can do this really cool thing.”

Andrew: We’re seeing… and this is a good example of inter-House unity. We’ve been hoping to see this. We were talking about this a few weeks ago.

Micah: Totally. And for the Hufflepuffs, there are questions about Cedric, and I think that that’s only natural that his Housemates would want to know what happened to him. And I can understand Harry maybe getting a little angry with that, but these are people who clearly believe Harry on some level – otherwise they wouldn’t be here – and they want to learn from him. They want to be able to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Eric: They see the need.

Laura: Yeah, and also – I agree, Micah – their curiosity is natural. They spent the entire summer being fed this BS narrative that Dumbledore is losing his mind and that Harry is crazy and making everything up. And it’s very clear from Harry’s demeanor at school that he’s calling BS on all of that, so they’re coming to him and saying, “Okay, well, can we hear your side, then? Because we’ve only heard their side.” Now, that doesn’t mean it’s Harry’s job to give that to them, but I also don’t think it’s a sin for them to be curious, for them to want to know, “Okay, well, then what happened?”

Andrew: No. Harry should have started a podcast.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “My story: Episode 1.”

Laura: That’s the answer to everything.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Between this and the Rita Skeeter tell-all interview that Harry eventually gives… that’s his true clapback; that’s his true… and Hermione also completely arranges that. I mean, Hermione is the GOAT, really.

Laura: Oh, listen, these two would have been dead halfway through the first year if it weren’t for her; I think that is well established. And another thought I had is Harry wants to be mad at Hermione in this moment, because he’s like, “Why didn’t she anticipate that this would be the reason for people to come do this?” And I get it, I understand the feeling, but I think she actually kind of did him a favor by breaking the dam with some of his peers outside of school, with a smallish group of peers, rather than continuing to allow the pressure to mount between Harry and the entire school. At least now he has a network of people outside of Ron and Hermione who he can confide in, relate to, spend time with.

Eric: She did her job. She just had to get them in the door.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Get them to see maybe what’s going on, and then the event unfolded naturally because they do have a common enemy; they have a common purpose. And even though he’s very against the idea at this juncture of telling them more about Cedric or reliving his trauma, he ultimately sees that communicating with them about what he can offer is how to break through this bubble that they’re all in.

Micah: Yeah, I think that we could ask the question whether or not Hermione could have prepared Harry more for this moment. I don’t really think it’s her responsibility to do that, and I don’t think she could have anticipated all of the different questions or topics of conversation. She could have guessed probably that Cedric would come up. But a lot of the other things that are talked about, they need to hear from Harry. In order for Harry to be validated, in their mind, he needs to sell them. “Why should we join Dumbledore’s Army?” Now, there’s clearly a desire on their part, otherwise they wouldn’t be there, but I still think part of it is Harry needs to close the deal.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It just takes Harry a minute to realize that, I think. Once he does, it all works out.

Micah: And Laura, you don’t think that Hermione was maybe even prepared fully for this moment.

Laura: No, I really don’t think she was. Even referring back to what I said before about Hermione is kind of out of her element here with what she’s doing; she’s never broken the rules in this way before. And actually, I want to give a shout-out to Michelle in our Discord, who said, “She’s just a rookie rule-breaker, and it’s her first time. She still got it done.” And I have to agree.

Eric: There’s a limit to how much preparedness you’re going to have ever. But also, I do feel the need to point out she’s not breaking the rules. She checked; this strictly isn’t illegal. It’s not!

Laura: Yeah, she’s not technically breaking the rules…

Eric: Again, she checked.

Laura: I know, but she also is capable of reading between the lines and understanding what new rules will get put in place if they are caught doing what they’re doing.

Eric: Can you imagine if earlier in the series a couple of students from all the Houses put together a study group for Potions to improve over Snape’s teaching of the subject? Like, “Hey, guys. This teacher is no good. Let’s get good at Potions in spite of him.” What kind of effect that might have had were Snape to find out, because this is the same thing with Umbridge that they’re doing. It’s like, “Let’s help each other to all be better in this subject that we can’t get the education through normal means.”

Micah: But at least with Snape, there’s been a level of consistency, whereas with Defense Against the Dark Arts, this is the first time where they’re being told, “No, you need to follow the textbook,” versus doing something that is a little bit more hands-on, right? That’s just my thought on it. And I think this is a great moment for Harry, because he’s really channeling so much of what he learned from Lupin in his third year. Because if you think about what he likely learned in the first two years of Defense Against the Dark Arts, it wasn’t a whole lot of anything. He really learned what he learned from Lupin, and maybe some from Bad-Eye Fakey in his fourth year. But it’s great to see him in this moment. Now, putting pen to paper is a whole different ball game, so I wanted to ask the group, what would it have taken us to sign up for Dumbledore’s Army? Now, I understand this is the ’90s. You sign up for clubs on a piece of paper.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But you just think about – we were talking earlier – who’s lurking around? If somebody is to get hold of that piece of paper, everybody who’s on it is going to be in deep doo-doo.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s the handwritten sign-up list that would be scaring me off, and I understand what a couple of the people at the meeting were hesitant about. And as we do learn later, Hermione – as bright as she is – kind of street smart, actually, in this sense, in this example. She does have a plan for this list and how it could punish any tattletales. That part is way too risky for me; it’s not so much the Hog’s Head. But I’m also wondering if, after the scene when Hermione goes to shop for a new quill, that this is some sort of hint or foreshadowing that she had done something special with the quill and parchment.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Because it just seems so random for her to shop for a new quill right after this meeting.

Eric: I really love that catch.

Andrew: What would it have taken you guys to be convinced?

Eric: I did sign up for chain letters and all sorts of… I was just… I mean, my inbox, if you saw the number I’m staring at right now, it’s just absolutely insane.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I can’t really get a handle on all the things I’ve willingly signed up for, so I haven’t learned anything from spam and phishing in the 21st century. So does that answer your question?

Andrew: I guess so.

Micah: You were all in, basically.

Eric: I’m all in.

Andrew: “A newsletter? Sign me up.”

Eric: “You want to get me 10% off?”

Andrew: “Put me in, coach. I’m ready to read.” [laughs]

Micah: How about you, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, if I were to put myself in the shoes of being a student at this table, yeah, I totally would have signed. Especially at that point in my life, I was going to protests; I was very, very engaged.

Eric: Aw, heck yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Rebel.

Laura: Yeah, I did not care about people knowing about the things that I believed in. But I will say, there are probably some better ways that this could have been anonymized and still had the same effect. Could people have used their initials? Could people have left a mark, like a fingerprint? Dip their finger in some ink and leave a fingerprint, and could it have had the same effect?

Eric: That seems even more scary, though.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: If you have to… something’s going to take a sample of your essence, rather than just quill and parchment. Quill and parchment, at least, is unassuming.

Micah: You could have used the essence of Murtlap. Or milk of…? Whatever you talked about on the last episode.

Andrew: No, not again!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m wondering… it would have been cool if the quill could anonymize the names as they were written down, and then maybe Hermione, being the owner of the quill, is the only person who can actually see the real names. Something like that.

Eric: I like that.

Andrew: Something Marauder’s Map-esque, where it’s hidden away from prying eyes. That would have been cool. This reminds me, back in fourth or fifth grade I actually made a signup form for my classmates to sign, in which we all agreed that this other kid in my class, Anthony Worrell, was a little bully, and he’s got to stop that!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It was like a petition, like, “Anthony is a bully; somebody put an end to this.” [laughs] I think I presented it to the teacher or something. I still have this; my mom saved it. My parents got a kick out of it.

Laura: [laughs] Oh no.

Andrew: But that was my Dumbledore’s Army signup form. That was my act of rebellion. [laughs]

Eric: It’s effective. And I think that we’re more likely to sign something if it’s our peers, in between our peers. The thing is, it does benefit them, having a list, even if it’s not magically binding – which it is – but because there are people they don’t know there. Harry doesn’t even know the Gryffindors that showed up here, and Cho brought her friend, who doesn’t have a name at this point. There are a number of people that, in order to get in touch with them again, the same way they were gotten in touch with the first time won’t work. People overheard other people, etc., etc. So having their names, really, ultimately is the only way to keep track of who was here and who’s going to be expecting an update.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Well, one person who will have no qualms about signing that piece of paper is Luna.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Before we wrap up the discussion here on the chapter and get to some odds and ends, I did want to just talk about Luna versus Hermione, because she really has no qualms at all about speaking her mind and standing up to Hermione. I think Hermione doesn’t realize it, of course, now in this moment, but so much of what she focuses on is the book smarts, and unless it’s right in front of her and she can see it and she can prove it… Luna, on the other hand, she has a bit more imagination, and I like how Luna is willing to challenge Hermione in this moment.

Laura: Yeah, do we agree with Luna?

Eric: That Heliopaths exist?

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean, yes, but secondarily, do we agree with her assessment of Hermione?

Andrew: Well, I agree with Micah; it is refreshing to see somebody push back against Hermione, even if the information is not true. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: But everybody always just believes everything Hermione says for the most part, and here’s somebody who’s just staunchly disagreeing with her. It’s like, “Oh, this is good. Fight!” What was your question, Laura? Sorry.

Laura: I was just asking do we agree with Luna? Do we think this is a valid criticism of Hermione?

Eric: I think specifically she says, “What, you won’t believe anything unless it’s shoved right under your nose?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, I think that’s probably pretty fairly accurate.

Andrew: Yeah, if you think about how often she is reading, anything under her nose is going to be a book, I think is the implication from Luna. So unless she reads it in a book, she ain’t buying it, Luna thinks.

Eric: And it’s one of Hermione’s greatest strengths, because she’s one of the most well-read characters we have, and so you do need that from time to time.

Laura: Yeah. It is just funny to see Hermione and Luna find themselves in the same orbit, because they have this one shared belief that the Ministry is corrupt and that Voldemort is back, but they agree on absolutely nothing else. [laughs]

Eric: It’s all it takes. That is your common ground right there, saving the world.

Laura: Totally.

Micah: Well, and the truth is likely somewhere in the middle between those two. But just a proud Ravenclaw moment for me there with Luna.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And I think that takes us to the end of this chapter. I know there’s a little bit of romance conversation in who’s dating who and who’s interested or not interested in who anymore.


Odds & Ends


Micah: But a few odds and ends to this chapter: We mentioned earlier there’s some eavesdropping going on in the Hog’s Head, as is usually the case there, right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, Mundungus is there. But I also was just thinking… we’ve kind of talked about this already, so I won’t repeat what I was thinking earlier in terms of who might be there, but it’s kind of too bad that Sirius actually wasn’t in Hogsmeade with them this time like he wanted to be, because he may have been able to sniff out Mundungus or any other suspicious lurkers at the Hog’s Head.

Eric: Ahh, yeah.

Andrew: And I wanted to call that out, because Sirius does come up in this chapter. Harry thinks about how Sirius wanted to come with them to Hogsmeade. He could have been helpful here.

Eric: Yeah, so I think just for the record, and to state it, Mundungus Fletcher is here. He’s the hag that’s mentioned, the tall hag that Harry thought could have been Umbridge, but that’s not how Umbridge finds out about this meeting. Umbridge finds out from Willy Widdershins; you remember him? The exploding toilets guy? And he wants to reduce his sentence, and in order to do that, he trades the information – pretty quickly, actually – with Umbridge, because at the beginning of the next chapter, she knows. So yeah, Willy Widdershins. Sorry, Willy. You’re why we can’t have nice things.

Laura: Does she actually reduce his sentence? Does she actually follow through on it?

Eric: Probably not.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, maybe. Actually, I think they read in the Prophet later that he was.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: I also wanted to follow up on Harry’s scars. In this chapter, Harry doubts whether the words that are “etched on the back of his hand would ever fade entirely.” That’s a quote. And I wanted to call this out because, as we discussed a couple weeks ago on the show, if you go see Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, you actually still see the scars on the back of Harry’s hand! That’s really impressive.

Eric: You’ve got to look for this, Laura, when you see it in Atlanta.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: See his hand scars.

Andrew: Now we’ve got to buy Laura a front row seat so she can see it.

Laura: I know. You’ve got to get me a VIP seat.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: She just yells, “I see them! I see them!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Everybody else in the theater is like, “What? See what?”

Micah: “Who’s the perv with the binoculars?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: In the front row. And then finally, just wanted to note that while the trio is walking around Hogsmeade, they see Fred and George and Lee Jordan hanging outside of Zonko’s Joke Shop. And this just made me wonder if they were doing some early research for Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes, or if this was some sort of foreshadowing, because it’s interesting it’s noted that they’re in front of Zonko’s, of all places. And sure, they like Zonko’s, but given what happens later, I wonder if it’s foreshadowing.

Micah: Yeah, and this made me think – when you said this, Andrew – about Hogwarts Legacy, and one of the Easter eggs outside of Zonko’s is that every once in a while if you go past, you’ll see two redheaded kids peering into the window.

Andrew: Oh, I didn’t know that. I’ll have to go look for that. That’s cool.

Eric: I also think Fred and George seen in the joke shop… they have this… I don’t know if it’s a Probity Probe, but they have something they threaten to stick Zacharias with. I find it really interesting that they’re using the Hogsmeade weekend for further R&D, and it’s clear that they probably are disassembling these items to see how they work, to figure out what makes them tick, and figure out how they’re going to improve upon them. It’s classic entrepreneurial behavior and inventor behavior. I like to see it, actually. I like to see any R&D Fred and George are doing that doesn’t involve tricking children into taking things that are going to affect them.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: All right, well, it’s now time for our version of MVP of the Week, and this has to do with our pen pal MVP. Thanks, Andrew, for the suggestion. Who would we be most likely to be pen pals with? Who would we really enjoy writing on the regular?

Andrew: I think Charlie Weasley would be fun to write to regularly. He’s in the broader wizarding world, and it’d just be interesting to hear what he has to say about dragons. That’s what I really want to talk to him about.

Eric: Is this because Hermione and Viktor are still pen pals this chapter? Is that where this came from?

Andrew: Yes, exactly. That’s the inspiration for the segment.

Eric: So I would say my choice for pen pal in the wizarding world would be Nicolas Flamel, because you’d have him for life; he’d be a lifelong pen pal. And he has a lot of personal experience that he could relate.

Andrew: Could learn a lot from him.

Laura: Until, what, 1995? [laughs]

Eric: I guess, technically, yeah. I mean, maybe if you’re going to Hogwarts in the ’80s, it would feel like it would be fun.

Laura: Okay. Yeah, there you go. There you go.

Micah: I decided to go with Dobby; I feel like he would be fun to write back and forth with high energy. You can rely on the fact that he would actually respond to you.

Eric: Aww.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: He has all the tea on what’s going on inside of Hogwarts, and he can go anywhere. That’s the best thing.

Andrew: That’s a good one.

Laura: So this might surprise some of you, but I said Dumbledore.

Andrew: Ooh!

Laura: I actually think he would be an amazing pen pal.

Micah: Which Dumbledore?

Laura: Albus.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I feel like he would write really long, literary, beautiful letters full of quirky anecdotes and funny stories about his journey and his observations on life. I think it would be delightful.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Yes, yes. It’s true, Laura, we’d be pen pal besties.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I really agree with that. The written form of Dumbledore is ingenious and is that very engaging personality that you would want to hear from.

Micah: For sure. Well, I thought it was only appropriate that with us spending time inside the Hog’s Head, that I stepped behind the bar and brew all of you up a few drinks.

Eric: Whoa!

Andrew and Laura: Oooh.

Laura: Okay.

Micah: And it’s up to you whether or not you want to keep it or do you want to pass it on to somebody else here on the panel.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, okay. I hope mine has Emma Watson’s gin in it. Let’s see.

Micah: Well, Andrew, yours is called Thestral Tonic, and it is a mysterious dark gin with a smokey twist.

Andrew: Ooh. You know what? I’m glad you mentioned smokey, because I’ve been getting into Mezcal recently, so I think this sounds right up my alley. I’m keeping this. Thank you, Micah.

Micah: No problem.

Andrew: This looks so expensive. This is so nice of you.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Now, you could choose to make it with Emma Watson’s gin, if you so choose. As long as you bring me the bottle, I’ll use it when I make your drink.

Andrew: Okay. I’m still looking for where to find that in America, so I’ll let you know when I do find it.

Micah: Eric, yours is Gryffindor’s Grog. Now, this is a bold spiced rum drink for the brave at heart.

Eric: Oho! We have such cold temperatures right now – I know a lot of the US does – that I could absolutely use some spiced rum, so I’m keeping it. Thank you.

Andrew: [laughs] I thought Santa was here for a second. Eric went, “Ohoho!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You know, it’s the Slughorn thing. “Oho!”

Andrew: Oh, okay. Got it.

Micah: And then for Laura, I have the Hog’s Breath.

Laura: All right.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Now, don’t be deterred by the name.

Laura: No, no, you can’t scare me. Go on.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: This is also a smokey drink. It’s a smoky whiskey with a fiery kick.

Laura: Ooh. Heck yeah, I’m keeping that.

Andrew: Yum.

Micah: All right. Well, that’s three for three. And then for myself, I went with the Crippled Cauldron. This is a fiery, bubbling mix of hot butterbeer with a splash of brandy.

Andrew: Ooh, okay. Awesome.

Laura: That sounds good.

Andrew: These are creative, Micah. I think we’ve got to have you over for a party and watch you whip these up for us.

Micah: All right, let’s do it.


Lynx Line


Micah: And to officially wrap up this chapter, we do have a question that we threw out on our Lynx Line, and the Lynx Line, for the folks who don’t know, is for MuggleCast listeners who are members of our Patreon, specifically the Slug Club tier. And the question this week was: With all the disguises going on at the Hog’s Head, if you had to disguise yourself as someone inside of the Hog’s Head, what would you dress up as?

Andrew: Fer said,

“How important is this eavesdropping I’m doing? If this is an all-in situation, I’m learning how to become an Animagus and turning myself into a cockroach… considering the filth in that place, I’ll fit right in.”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, definitely. For sure. Emily says,

“If the purpose is to eavesdrop, I think I’d take a page out of Slughorn’s book and turn myself into furniture. Of course, there is the issue of someone potentially sitting on you, so I don’t think I’d go for a chair or a bar stool, so maybe a dusty table in the corner that no one would want to sit on.”

Andrew: Ohoho! I love that answer.

Micah: Jen had a similar thought.

“I’d transfer myself into a Micah Chair à la Slughorn in Half-Blood Prince. I’d make myself a particularly uncomfortable chair so nobody would want to sit on me, and position myself in a dark corner within earshot of whomever I’m spying on.”

Andrew: For listeners who don’t know, the Micah Chair is a joke that was born out of another podcast we do, Millennial. We had one time observed that Micah loves going to that chair in the hotel room that nobody sits on. He loves that chair. So we started calling it the Micah Chair, because only Micah sits in it, as far as I know. So that’s where that came from.

Eric: I think people underestimate how important having any furniture anywhere in a public space is going to get sat on, no matter how uncomfortable it is.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No matter what. If you get enough people in a place, they’re going to want to sit or lean on anything.

Andrew: Yes, but those Micah Chairs are dirtier than the Hog’s Head floor. Those things do not get cleaned.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: They’re probably dirtier than the bed.

Andrew: Well, yeah, because the bed sheets, at least those get washed. They’re not throwing the chair through the wash. Bleck.

Eric: I don’t know; I treat my Micah Chairs pretty well when I stay in them.

Micah: Thank you.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, so do I, because I don’t touch them. Eric brings Febreze into hotel rooms and sprays it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Febreze fabric scent. I actually reupholster chairs while I’m staying in hotel rooms.

Andrew: It’s very nice of you.

Laura: Might be a business in that. Darin says,

“I would dress up as Aberforth, using Polyjuice Potion. Since he has been there forever and doesn’t get much notice, I think he would be the easiest to infiltrate a secret meeting at the Hog’s Head, since it’s his pub.”

Andrew: Jennifer said,

“I would infiltrate the Hog’s Head itself and get a job there. That way it wouldn’t be strange for me to be there all the time. I could gather intel easily by walking around the pub, hiding in plain sight!”

Good one.

Eric: Love that. I bet Aberforth would probably hire somebody if they just walked up and said, “Need some help?” Because he clearly does. Rachel added,

“I’d go fully undercover as a resident of Hogsmeade who frequents the Hog’s Head, so it wouldn’t be unusual for me to be there. I’d pretend to do a crossword, but I’d really be recording notes.”

Ooh, I love the idea that whatever notes you’re taking, you’d have to fit into the little boxes of the crossword.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Megan says,

“I always enjoyed the Christmas tree the trio moved in front of them in the Three Broomsticks. I like the idea of becoming a potted plant for elite spying abilities.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Love that.

Laura: Julianne says, “I would dress as a goat and get cozy with Aberforth.”

Micah: As you do.

Laura: Julianne!

Andrew: All right…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We didn’t really discuss that aspect of this chapter. That’s After Dark/bonus MuggleCast.

Eric: Yeah, it’s not really this chapter anyway. It’s not like in the movie where they enter and there’s a goat and he chases it off. That’s not at all.

Andrew: Jenny said,

“I would dress as a woman out for a day of shopping in Hogsmeade. I would have a bunch of bags, and everyone would just think I stopped in for refreshments. It would have the added bonus of being able to have a recording device or Quick Quotes Quill in one of the bags to record whatever it is I’m eavesdropping on.”

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: Yes, good.

Eric: Clever. And Eleanor says,

“Is this a one-off? Or a longer term situation? If it’s one-off, I’m going for a visitor to Hogsmeade. I’m going to be a bit dodgy – Mundungus Fletcher vibes. I’ll transfigure my face and act shifty. No one will suspect why I’m really there; they’ll all think I’m selling dodgy goods. If this is going to be a repeat, then I think I’m going to get a job as a bartender. I’ll use a spell on Aberforth to make him think he’s hired me. He’s paying me peanuts, but giving me room and board; he thinks it’s a good deal for him. This one will be trickier. I need a cover story that I can keep up with, so it’ll have to have some basis in fact. I’m probably from some distance away, and had been homeschooled instead of Hogwarts. A family that keeps themselves to themselves, but I’ve always wanted to know more about wizarding life, so I’ve come to Hogsmeade to experience it.”

Eric: Man, Eleanor did all the research. All the planning.

Micah: Yeah, a lot of great answers. Very creative.

Andrew: Yeah. Listeners, we love this segment, and yeah, like Micah said, seeing all the creativity out of everybody. And patrons get to participate in this benefit every week at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. It’s one of many benefits on the Patreon, so please do check it out. If you have any other feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and next week, we’ll discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Educational Decree Number 24.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch Question: In the US of A, the College Board administers the SAT, which has a possible perfect score of 1600. What is the lowest score possible to receive on the SAT? This is if you fill out your name and nothing else. You can get a 400. That is the correct answer; 400 is the lowest score on the SAT. 60% of people who submitted the correct answer said they didn’t look it up, so that’s pretty smart. I bet they all scored more than a 400, and I hope they’re not speaking from personal experience.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But this week’s winners are as follows: Buff Daddy; Christa; Ethan the Ravenclaw from Dublin who wants to know what happens to Grawp for a year; LadyHermioneLookalike; Shadow the Hedgehog; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; The number of people that are on crutches at my school is bad, it’s four currently, and all of them have knee injuries, guys, my school is falling apart; and Tofu Tom.

Andrew: Uh… sir or madam, we are not the right person to contact about your school falling apart, so please reach out to your school administrators.

Micah: Reach out to Dumbledore. He knows a thing or two about schools falling apart.

Laura: But I hope you’re okay.

Eric: Yeah. Next week’s Quizzitch question: In the mid 20th century United Kingdom, pint glasses replaced what type of drinking vessel commonly made of glass, ceramic, or pewter? So it’s a little bit of a UK pub question. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the MuggleCast website, maybe checking out transcripts or our wall of fame/must listens pages, just click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: [laughs] Micah is totally cheating right now.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: What is he…?!

Andrew: I just watched him copy the question. He probably pasted it into Google. He’s getting the answer.

Eric: You’re asking Grok right now.

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: But I’m allowed to say whether or not I looked it up. Am I not, Eric?

Eric: Yes, that’s… yeah, you’re right. People can cheat miserably by just saying that they did.

Andrew: Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam and Micah reviewed the final season of Cobra Kai, and then over on Millennial, we’re discussing the rise in concert ticket prices and why some Americans are heading overseas to see their favorites this summer. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years, and there are several great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear, like the MuggleCast cap I am wearing tonight; I think it’s on the site as MuggleCap. Apple Podcasts subscribers can join MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early releases of the show, plus two bonus episodes every month. And for those benefits and more, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and in addition to what I just shared, you’ll get livestreams, Lynx Line access, physical gifts, a personal video message from one of the four of us, access to our Facebook and Discord communities, and lots more. So thank you, everybody who supports us. Again, we could not do this without you. And as for other ways to help us out, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please owl a friend about the show and cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Lastly, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive our favorite episodes and lots more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Cheers. Próst! I’m Andrew.

Eric: Próst! I’m Eric.

[pause]

Laura: Micah, you’re on mute.

Micah: I’m Micah.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Micah already started drinking.

Andrew: He held up the glass and forgot to say, “And I’m Micah.”

Micah: No, I did say it. I was on mute.

Laura: You were on mute.

Andrew: Ohh.

Laura: And I’m Laura. [laughs]

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Micah: Bye.

Transcript #693

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #693, C’s Get Degrees (OOTP Chapter 15, The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. And this week, we have some TV casting news, and everyone needs to be ready for inspection because we are diving into Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we have a MuggleCast listener and Slug Club supporter over on Patreon joining us this week, Jordan! Welcome to the show, Jordan.

Jordan: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a pleasure to have you here. Can we get your fandom ID?

Jordan: Yes, of course. So my favorite book is Order of the Phoenix, so very excited to be discussing it today. My favorite movie is Deathly Hallows – Part 2, just because of the memories I have around it when it came out. My House is Hufflepuff, so yay, and my Patronus is a dolphin. And I would consider my favorite control freak probably Hermione.

[Andrew laughs]

Jordan: I don’t know if you consider her a control freak, but in the first couple of books, I consider her maybe slight control freak. I couldn’t think of anyone else.

[Andrew and Jordan laugh]

Laura: Yeah, no, I tend to agree. Hermione has some control freakish tendencies; I think we can all agree with that.

Andrew: Yeah. I was like, “Is this prompt a little too harsh?” But Jordan was like, “No, I’m good with it. It’s cool. Let’s roll with it.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So I was like, “Okay, cool.” [laughs] Well, I wanted to… we like to shake up the questions depending on the chapter, and I thought with Umbridge stepping in and becoming the Hogwarts High Inquisitor, it was an appropriate – if slightly extreme – question this week for the fandom ID. Well, thanks again, Jordan, for being here, and we’re looking forward to having you contribute today, and thanks for your support over on Patreon.

Jordan: You’re very welcome.


News


Andrew: So before we get into Chapter by Chapter, there is some pretty significant news concerning the Harry Potter TV show. John Lithgow is nearing a deal to play Dumbledore in the TV adaptation. This is interesting on multiple levels: First of all, we had previously told listeners that Mark Rylance was in discussions for the role, but that evidently has fallen through, so because there was somebody else in the mix and they fell through, maybe John Lithgow will fall through as well, but I don’t know. It seems like he’s in final discussions; he’s a little further down the road than Mark Rylance was. He has a storied career in Hollywood. I will also note he is American, and with the films, it was an all-British cast. What have y’all seen him in? And how do you feel about this news?

Laura: Actually, I’m kind of excited. Very interested to see what this will look like; John Lithgow is an amazing actor. I haven’t seen everything he’s done, but I have seen him in The Crown, where he played Winston Churchill. Saw him in Dexter, where he played a serial killer for a season. Obviously, he’s Lord Farquaad in Shrek. He is someone who has a very broad range, and I actually think it could work really well. I thought when I saw this… I saw this earlier today; I thought for sure, “Oh, it’s just another casting rumor, like we always see.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And it was because – to your point, Andrew – he’s not British. I immediately wrote it off because I think we were all operating under the impression that we were going to get an entirely British cast again.

Eric: But if the floodgates are open, I want Tom Hanks as Remus Lupin…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I want… who else can we really shoe in here? If Americans…

Andrew: Yeah, we’ve got to American fantasy cast this series evidently now.

Eric: Well, especially with the adult characters. They used all the British actors that existed for the movies.

Laura: Well, and so many of them are gone now.

Eric: That’s an interesting point. I want to echo what you said, Laura, about John Lithgow being amazing. I probably first saw him on the TV series 3rd Rock From the Sun, but I was also watching Dexter. Actually, because of his performance in Dexter, that was the last season of Dexter I watched, because it was so terrifying.

Laura: Oh, okay.

Eric: In a good way, in a good way. I was just like, “Wow, this man can act.” But I think in terms of Dumbledore – and I love him as an actor – I’m kind of wishing… he skews a little old and he skews a little less weird. I want an actor who’s weird, and John Lithgow is very good and very straight and very serious. And I mean, he’s been doing this for 80 years; does he really need this credit, which is another ten years of film, of work, potentially? He’s actually, at age 80, ten years older than Richard Harris was in Sorcerer’s Stone, and we know how that ended up.

Andrew: Yeah, so I wanted to bring this up too. It seems risky, with all due respect to him, and I’m sure he’s a healthy, happy guy; he wants this role. But he’s 79 years old, and this is a ten-year film project. Of course, he won’t be totally involved with Deathly Hallows, but he’s going to be involved for the majority of this. And why are they casting somebody so old? Because to your point, Eric, they might run into a Richard Harris situation again. Sorry, it’s dark, but…

Laura: This honestly makes me wonder – I’m going to go back to something I theorized a year ago, I think, at this point – it really makes me wonder if there is a larger plan to recast principal roles throughout the series, just because we do know it’s going to be complicated with the kids aging and trying to make that fit with this ten-year project and not shoot when they’re too young or shoot when they’re getting too old for various points in it. I wonder if the plan is that with the principal cast, they’re going to have a very similar setup as they did in The Crown, where they recast every couple of seasons.

Andrew: But those were time jumps. They’re not time jumping with this series. Maybe they’re more willing to recast if they need to.

Laura: Maybe.

Andrew: They might be thinking, “Well, we can’t repeat the success twice that we had with the Harry Potter films, where we had basically the entire cast all the way through. It’s just unrealistic for us to pull this off a second time.”

Eric: I would hope that they – and what I thought they were going to do – is probably cast a person who skews a little young and age him up, because you can never go wrong… you can’t go backwards, to a certain extent. I mean, John Lithgow was the pastor in Footloose. Not the remake; the original Footloose.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That movie’s older than I am! Okay? And I like John Lithgow. My favorite thing he’s done was he was the dad in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, the first movie of the remake Planet of the Apes series, and he’s great in that. He’s great in everything. I don’t know how I feel about this being in the world of Harry Potter.

Jordan: Well, I know him mainly from How I Met Your Mother. He was Barney’s dad, so he came on later in the series. I have mixed feelings. I think he would be great as a Movie 1 and 2 Dumbledore, so the calm, collected one. But when you go into yelling about putting your name in the Goblet of Fire, I don’t think he would be the right cast, which… we don’t want that anyways, so…

Laura: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, they could keep him calm! They could actually… that’s what I want; an actor to deliver that line calmly.

Jordan: I think he would make a great calm Dumbledore from the roles I’ve seen him in.

Eric: We do deserve, I think, to see as audiences the younger Dumbledore that first started the Order, whether it’s in flashback or not, the Dumbledore that first laid the groundwork and the chess pieces for everything that comes in the series. The Dumbledore that faced… that was essentially a professor when Dippet first had to nearly close the school for Chamber of Secrets. If you look at what they did for Richard Harris in that flashback with Tom Riddle, it was awful. It was bad. And I know technology has come a long way, but again, I think my approach would be to cast young and age them up. Get a little of that quirky vibrance. Again, John Lithgow is one of the best actors alive. I don’t necessarily like him in this role.

Andrew: Yeah. See, I would say give him a chance to be quirky and do the book Dumbledore justice. We’ll just have to see how he’s going to play it and how he’s going to be directed to play it. He seems to be a very versatile actor to me, given all of his credits, so I’m excited to see what he does with it. And we have yet to hear his existing relationship with Harry Potter. Is he secretly a huge Harry Potter fan? He’s going to reveal this during a press tour or something? Has his family always been big Harry Potter fans? I’m sure a lot more will come to light that will help anyone who might be skeptical right now feel better about this. And I think, as we’ve discussed on the show before, it says a lot to me that they seem to be casting around Dumbledore. This was the first casting rumor we had heard about back when we heard about Mark Rylance, so it seems to me that they’re putting a lot of weight into who they cast as Dumbledore, and they must have their reasons for choosing him. I just hope John’s doctors provided a note to WB assuring them that he’s in good shape for the foreseeable future.

Eric: I want Zac Efron as James Potter.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Let’s see. Who is your American fan casting? Now that we know.

Andrew: Timothée Chalamet for Harry Potter!

Laura: I was going to say, they’re going to try and get Timothée Chalamet in here.

Eric: Andrew, I don’t know if you mentioned that this article is from Deadline. I trust them for news like this.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s reputable for sure, the reporting. So we’ll see. Well, listeners and viewers, stick with MuggleCast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. Be sure to follow us on YouTube and in your favorite podcast app so you can stay up to date on the latest developments. And as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your financial support allows us to run this show, and in exchange, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast. We release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon, and in these we have fun talking about different aspects of the Harry Potter fandom outside of Chapter by Chapter. On this week’s bonus episode, what are we doing, Laura?

Laura: We’re going to be talking about the Educational Decrees that should have been. We realized in planning for this chapter that we don’t know what most of the Educational Decrees before Umbridge got involved were, so we’re going to try and fill in the blanks and solve for some of Hogwarts’s many security nightmares.

Andrew: Yeah, and fun fact about bonus MuggleCast episodes and ad-free episodes, which are another Patreon perk: Once you pledge to our Patreon, you can listen to all these audio perks right within your favorite podcast app. You don’t need to listen through Patreon or a website or anywhere else; you can get all of our best content right through your favorite podcast app, so it’s very easy once you become a patron. Thanks, everybody – including Jordan – who supports us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And now let’s get into Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” But first, Eric, take us back in time.

Eric: Yes, we last discussed Chapter 15 on Episode 451 for January 28, of 2020 The title of that episode was “Murtlap Milkin’.”

Andrew: Oh!

[Laura laughs]

Eric: And if you have any questions as to how that came to be, look no further than this Time-Turner clip.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 451.

Micah: What exactly is essence of Murtlap? What do they do to that poor creature to get the essence out of it? Do they squeeze it?

Eric: Well, you slit its throat…

Andrew: Nooo!

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: You take a needle; you extract some of his inner goo. He’s got tentacles, these Murtlaps, so maybe you just pluck a tentacle off of his back.

Micah: You squeeze the tentacle like you would maybe with a squid? The ink comes out?

Andrew: Yeah, you milk it like a cow.

Micah: You milk… [laughs] Murtlap milk.

[Andrew laughs]

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Eric: Only the real questions on MuggleCast.

Andrew: I was going to say, I’m glad that is not in our rundown today. I don’t want to talk about that again. [laughs]

Laura: No, I’ve got to say, that’s not an aspect of this chapter where we’re going to spend really any time today, probably.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: But what we are going to talk about to kick off the discussion is what is a High Inquisitor? I think we all have some sense of what this means, right? But I got curious and wondered what other examples we might be able to draw from to give us a full picture of what a High Inquisitor is. So according to our AI overlords, a High Inquisitor typically refers to a high-ranking official within an inquisition, often considered the leader or chief investigator, with significant authority over other Inquisitors, usually tasked with hunting down and interrogating individuals deemed heretical or dangerous to the established order. In popular culture, this term is most commonly associated with the Star Wars universe, where a High Inquisitor is a senior member of the Inquisitorius, a group dedicated to hunting down surviving Jedi after the Jedi Orders fall, directly reporting to Darth Vader. So that’s good information. I didn’t realize that Star Wars was better known for having a High Inquisitor than Harry Potter, but today I learned. [laughs]

Eric: Well, Harry Potter did it first.

Laura: Did it?

Eric: Yeah. I mean, yes. I want to say yes.

Laura: When did Star Wars come out?

Eric: Well, so the… in terms of the Inquisitorius, or whatever they would call it, that didn’t probably get fleshed out till Clone Wars at the very earliest, and that was after Book 5 came out.

Laura: Ahh. Okay.

Andrew: Eric just out-nerded Laura; she didn’t see that coming.

[Jordan and Laura laugh]

Laura: No, no…

Eric: No, specifically about Order 66 and everything that happened after that.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Okay, I don’t know that, but “When was it established in the canon?” is the question. Not “When was it fleshed out?”; it’s “When was it established in Star Wars canon?”

Eric: I would… in the films, there is no mention of the Inquisitors.

Laura: Okay. Well, there we go. So I guess Harry Potter did it first. Somebody tell Google AI Gemini.

Eric: Also, Marc, don’t at me if I’m lying.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Hamill?!

Eric: Please at me. Please.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, anyway, the reason we’re talking about what a High Inquisitor is is because the Daily Prophet arrives at breakfast the following morning after they read this letter from Percy, and Dolores Umbridge has a big front-page article talking about how she has been appointed as High Inquisitor to Hogwarts. And the article in the Prophet goes on to say that in the dead of night, the Ministry passed surprise legislation giving itself an unprecedented level of control at Hogwarts, which is why Umbridge has been appointed. So in thinking about timelines here… because we were talking last chapter about why is Percy sending this owl in the dead of night? Is there some reason he wants Ron to be alone when he reads it? Is that the timing for it? This just kind of seems to me like Percy heard the news before it was public, and immediately went to write to Ron.

Andrew: “Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!”

[Eric and Jordan laugh]

Laura: Yeah, that’s what it feels like!

Andrew: “Wait till I tell Ron about this!” That’s how I picture that. But Eric, I think you think Percy may have gotten more of a heads up.

Eric: Well, Percy is quoted in this article, right? And so he probably was instrumental in its creation, and knew well in advance that it was coming. He probably knew about the law that Fudge was passing, since he’s his assistant. Now, also, Meg had an idea that kind of corrects what we were talking about last week about Umbridge reporting to Fudge, but it’s possible that Umbridge or Fudge specifically wanted Percy to write to Ron, because there’s that part of Percy’s letter that says, “Do let Umbridge know what Harry is up to.” Basically, spy on him, and that’s kind of the whole… even though Percy would frame it as if he just has Ron’s best interests at heart, it ultimately comes back to exactly what Arthur Weasley said was Fudge’s reason for making Percy his assistant, is trying to get the goods on Dumbledore and Harry Potter and furthers that agenda. So complete next level, deep dive on the motivations for some of these characters. But yeah, whether Percy was asked or not, he has known about this, and he kind of was bragging about the fact that it was going to be front page news. He thinks it’s a good thing for Hogwarts.

Jordan: I agree with Eric. I think Percy is going to do anything to make himself feel important, look important, be important, and writing to his brother with this news that is coming out the next day is a good way to make himself feel important.

Andrew: Yeah. And Laura, you mentioned something else I wanted to flag. You said that the Prophet says that this was passed at the Ministry in the dead of night, and this is always a major sign that the Ministry or whoever is passing anything in the middle of the night, doing something in the middle of the night, was trying to sneak this by some people and pull a fast one. So they were trying to get this by maybe others at the Ministry, maybe the couple of people who do resign in light of this news, and/or trying to sneak it by Dumbledore before he can work his sources at the Ministry and maybe stop this from happening.

Laura: Exactly. And we also learn this isn’t the first time this has happened either; the article goes on to say that on August 30, Educational Decree 22 was passed, which allows the Ministry to appoint someone for a teaching post if the headmaster can’t find anyone, and now we have our explanation for why Umbridge got assigned to Defense Against Dark Arts. It makes sense, especially following the events of Goblet of Fire, why Dumbledore would be having trouble filling that post.

Eric: [laughs] And they waited till the last minute on that one too. August 30? It’s the day before September. Was Fudge just messaging Dumbledore going, “You got anybody yet? You got anybody yet? You got anybody yet? Okay, here’s a new law.”

Jordan: But do you think that maybe the Ministry has some hand in them not being able to fill the position just to get Umbridge in there? That’s my thought.

Eric: That’s an interesting question.

Laura: Oh, man.

Jordan: Maybe they were behind the scenes saying, “Maybe no one is filling the position. Let’s get Umbridge in there.” I think the Ministry had some hand in that.

Eric: I like that, the idea that they’re sort of manufacturing a shortage of teachers. I also wonder if… I mean, it makes perfect sense why Dumbledore would have a shortage of teachers applying. He’s mentioned how it gets harder every year, for obvious reasons; they keep dying or going away. But I do wonder if there are qualified candidates that Dumbledore is not asking. Now, I’m thinking ahead to next year, and I know that Slughorn teaches Potions, but here’s an example of a retired former teacher that Dumbledore decides to have back and everything that… he presumably could have done that a year sooner, gotten Snape in the DA job for earlier. So it just, to me, seems like maybe there aren’t no candidates, but maybe Dumbledore is really hedging his bets on the position actually being cursed, and he’s like, “I’m going to let the Ministry do this, but no matter what, she’ll be out of there in a year, so it’ll be fine.” [laughs]

Laura: Oh, that’s funny. Yeah, I can see… I mean, that’s a very chess mastery move that I could see Dumbledore pulling.

Eric: It’s very John Lithgow.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Ahh, yep. See? More evidence. [laughs]

Andrew: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, she’s coming in, and it’s going to be hell, but at least it is only one year. And then in terms of Slughorn, Eric, do you think it’s something where he’s like, “I’ll only call him in if I absolutely positively run out of other options”? And then, “Sorry, buddy, but I need somebody, and I don’t want another pick from the Ministry.”

Eric: Right. Well, he gets Slughorn on board by dangling Harry Potter in front of him, but he could have done that at any one of the previous six years to get Slughorn back teaching Potions and moving/maneuvering Snape into the position. But it works out perfectly in the next book, because that’s the year that Dumbledore knows his own days are numbered and that he’s got to get Snape to do everything Snape has to do in the next book.

Jordan: I think Dumbledore did it all on purpose because he knew he was dying.

Andrew: Jordan, where do you fall in the grand Dumbledore debate? Are you pro-Dumbledore or not?

Jordan: I have mixed feelings about Dumbledore. [laughs]

Andrew: Critical of him? Okay. Mixed feelings?

Laura: That’s the right answer.

Jordan: Yeah. I love him, but I also do not like a lot of his decisions.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I think, honestly, we’re meant to question Dumbledore; that’s the whole reason that such a big subplot of Book 7 is questioning his credibility. So I think any reader that’s skeptical, at least, of Dumbledore is doing exactly what was intended.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s fair. Something else I wanted to bring up from the Prophet article: They note that some say Hogwarts has “failing standards,” but I’m wondering what these standards are. I don’t think they’re academic standards, right? Because there doesn’t seem to be an issue with students either struggling to graduate or struggling post-Hogwarts. So is this just more bluster from the Prophet or their alleged sources, just to further discredit Dumbledore?

Eric: “Alleged sources” is a good way of putting it. Yeah, because then you look at who they ask for their articles, and it’s Lucius Malfoy, former Death Eater.

Andrew: And Percy.

Eric: Yeah, Percy.

Andrew: “Lucius, from his mansion, said the following…”

Eric: Yeah, “from his luxurious mansion.” I’m surprised they didn’t mention the albino peacocks in this article.

Andrew: “While stroking his albino peacocks, said the following…”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, it’s just… it’s slander. Or libel, I guess, because it’s in writing.

Andrew: But when I’m reading… if I’m a parent with a student at Hogwarts, and I’m reading these types of articles and I’m hearing about failing standards, I’m wondering what standards are they talking about? And I would like to think that witch and wizard parents are reading these articles from the Prophet with a critical eye and questioning what they’re reading, because there’s some clear BS in here.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But it’s their only news source. The Prophet is their only source of news.

Andrew: It is.

Eric: It’s been reporting all summer; it’s done an extensive hit job on Dumbledore, the leader of Hogwarts, the headmaster of Hogwarts. So the failing standards, the fact that there’s no sources cited on this, shows that they don’t have to do that sort of thing. They’ve already… the poison has sunk in at this point.

Laura: And to be honest, when they’re talking about failing standards, they’re not really bringing up the actual academics. I mean, maybe with Hagrid, but apart from that, the quality of the academics isn’t really what’s on the table. They’re actually using falling standards at the school as a stand-in for “We believe that there are subversive activities and subversive characters being allowed to be around our children.”

Eric: “We’re going to protect the children.” It’s just thinly veiled racism, in many cases, against werewolves, half-breeds…

Laura: Yeah. Well, we here at the show do need to be able to pay our bills so that they don’t come at us and say that we have failing standards…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … so we’ll be right back after these words from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Laura: Picking up where we left off before the break, I think, Andrew, you had mentioned a couple of officials resigning in light of this news. These were two members of the Wizengamot, [doesn’t pronounce the “T”] or Wizengamot? [pronounces the “T”] I think we got some feedback from a listener recently suggesting we should pronounce the “T.”

Eric: It should be Wizengamot [pronounces it “Wise-in-gamut”] because it was Witenagemot, but I will say Wizengamot [pronounces it “Wiz-an-guh-mo”] until the day I die. Pry it from me.

Andrew: Wizengamot. [pronounces it “Wiz-an-guh-mo”] Yeah, I think that’s how I want to say it, too.

Eric: But the original was the Witans in the UK.

Laura: Yeah, but language evolves.

Andrew: Let’s call them the Wiz.

Eric: Wiz! Wiz is funny. The Wiz.

Andrew: Two members of the Wiz, not to be confused with the musical. [laughs]

Laura: I was going to say, that gets confusing. Well, anyway. I’m just going to say Wizengamot. [pronounces it “Wiz-an-guh-mo”] Sorry not sorry. So these two members resign in protest at the announcement of the High Inquisitor; they think that this is a clear representation of government overreach. And I think that we would all agree here on this panel, but I wanted to ask, how far is too far for the Ministry to be involved at Hogwarts? It is a public school. We do know that it is funded by taxes, presumably. It’s funded by the Ministry. So what should Ministry oversight of Hogwarts look like?

Andrew: I think there does need to be some sort of reset, and hopefully there was after the events of the wizarding war, the second one. I would just like to see a better relationship between the Ministry and the school and the headmaster or headmistress at the time. Appoint a team at the Ministry who is mutually agreed upon by both sides, meaning the school and the Ministry, and then try to maintain as good a relationship as possible. Right now it doesn’t seem like there’s really a healthy relationship between the school and the government, and there’s room for improvement.

Eric: There’s supposed to be a Board of Governors we hear about from time to time. Lucius Malfoy bribed all of them in Book 2.

Andrew: Yeah, so that’s a wreck.

Eric: [laughs] Well, it’s a wreck, but at least it was established. That’s probably one of the earlier Educational Decrees. The one thing I’ll point to, as far as “Is this overreach?”, is that there’s only been 21 Educational Decrees signed into law, or 22 and 23 in this chapter. And that presumably goes back to either the beginning of Hogwarts, a thousand years ago, or the beginning of the Ministry of Magic, if that happened later. That might have been a little later, actually. So 21 Educational Degrees over a thousand years, and now Umbridge is about to pass 30 more. It’s absolutely insane power-hungriness, etc. One of them was probably the right of Hogwarts to provide food for its children, or… crazy, not like the student groups forbidden and the heavy hand that Umbridge comes in with. So if it’s not already overreach, it’s about to be.

Laura: Totally.

Andrew: But maybe, Eric, these numbers that you present – and I’m glad you did this math here – imply that the relationship between the school and the Ministry has actually been pretty good until recent years.

Eric: But there’s also… yeah, there’s no basis for comparison either. It’s not like there’s other schools in Europe; it’s not that this Ministry has a Board of Education that’s going to have standards that are set for all participating schools and educational places. That doesn’t exist. And so instead you have an opportunity, I guess, for this very politicized “No, you can’t do things this way; you have to do things this way” kind of approach that Fudge is now trying to cram through.

Laura: It’s crazy to me that we never heard anything about a new Educational Decree after Moaning Myrtle got killed, and then 50 years later, after it happened again. That is odd to me.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Jordan: In the States, we have school boards. The government… I mean, they’re not hands on, but we do, well, have the Department of Education at the moment. So yeah, I mean, I kind of agree with all of y’all. There has been involvement, but not to the extent where it’s getting ready to be.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and unfortunately for Harry, his day is not about to get any better. In fact, he’s about to see a whole lot more of Umbridge throughout the day, unfortunately for him and for us.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But before that happens, he goes to our favorite Potions Master’s class, where Snape hands back homework, informing the students that he has graded their homework using the OWL exam rubric; basically the O for Outstanding, E for Exceeds Expectations, A for Acceptable, P for Poor, D for Dreadful, and maybe T for Troll. We don’t get confirmation of whether or not anyone in the class gets a T for Troll, but Harry does get a D, Ron gets a P, and I think we’re led to assume Hermione gets an A.

Andrew: [imitating Snape] “Yes, she did. Of course, she did. She’s a know-it-all.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s crazy if even Snape can’t find enough wrong to give her a lower grade, but she’s good at what she does.

Laura: Honestly, that probably means that she’s actually better than an A. I would imagine if Slughorn graded that assignment for her, he would give her higher marks.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and an A isn’t that good on this scale. It’s basically a C, right?

Laura: Hey, C’s get degrees.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s true, but Hermione wants more.

Eric: Here’s the thing…

Laura: Don’t listen to me, kids.

Eric: I’m starting to think Snape is not a nice guy.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I’m also starting to think that he should have warned the students that this would be graded as such. “Here’s a wake-up call: You’re all failing” is not instructive of what they could do better. I mean, unless he’s writing one page of parchment length letter to each student about how their essay could be improved to OWL standard, then all he’s doing is being a jerk.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s not fair. He should have shared that this would be the grading scale he’d be using prior to them working on this, because he’s basically pulling the rug out from under them. It’s a nice practice lesson, but tell us upfront that this is how you’re going to grade our work.

Eric: It’s just scare tactics, shock tactics… this is all in Snape’s repertoire. I’m starting to think he really enjoys being cruel.

[Andrew gasps]

Laura: Totally. And as a result, he threatens that on the next round of homework, he’s going to hand out detentions to all of those people who got D’s, and he’s specifically digging at Harry here. So yeah, it’s rough. But of course, Hermione is very inspired by this to go all in on OWL talk. And we know OWLs are Ordinary Wizarding Levels; these are the exams that fifth years have to sit at the end of the year. And she clearly wants to talk about exam strategy. She’s clearly very interested in what grades Harry and Ron got…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … because Snape basically tells them when he gives them back the assignment, “This is a really good baseline prediction of how you’re going to do at the end of the year, so good luck.” And Hermione is very clearly saying, “Oh, even if you get a passing score, that’s really encouraging at this stage,” clearly trying to angle for their grades. Ron is finally like, “Hermione, if you want to know our grades, just ask.” [laughs] And it is an uncomfortable conversation that is thankfully interrupted by Fred and George and Lee Jordan, which is where we hear about T for Troll as well. I don’t know that we ever got confirmation that this is a real grade. Does anyone know?

Eric: No, it’s a joke from Fred and George.

Jordan: I think if it was a real grade, Harry would have gotten in on his essay.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Laura: That is a good point with Snape.

Eric: Yeah, it’s offensive to trolls.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s not a reason why they wouldn’t do it, but I don’t know. Being compared to a troll would just ruin my academic career.

Laura: Well, Harry is continuing along with his classes, and unfortunately for him, this is where Umbridge comes back into his day.

Eric: Ugh.

Laura: So he and Ron have Divination with Professor Trelawney, and guess who’s there but the pink nightmare herself.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: And I was wondering, because we know Umbridge is here to inspect Trelawney – part of her job as High Inquisitor is she is allowed to go inspect teachers in their classrooms – have any of us ever had to deal with being inspected while on the job?

Eric: I’ve had a few… at work they call them ride-alongs, where somebody from corporate wants to see what we do, and so I simultaneously have to show someone the ropes/training, but also I’m getting evaluated on how well I know my job or do it. And I try and not betray any ounce of, “Oh, I’m nervous here,” but yeah, I mean, you’ve got to ultimately show these higher-ups a good time, or ultimately your boss is going to hear about it.

Laura: So in another life, honestly, at this point, I was a teacher, and I definitely had classroom inspections. Those are pretty normal. They can be for assessing the quality of your lessons, or it can also just be for new teachers who are shadowing to get some experience. But I will say I’ve kind of been on both sides of the equation with classroom inspections, where some people, when they come to watch a class, they’re invisible. They’re really good at entering the classroom so sleuthily and being so quiet that you and the students barely even notice they’re there; they’re not intrusive in any way. And then you have the ones who make a point of walking in in the middle of your class while you’re actively lecturing and sitting down and clacking on their keyboard as they take notes the entire time. Those are very stressful, and I honestly kind of felt for Trelawney in reading this chapter because of that experience. [laughs]

Andrew: Yes! This is a different kind of evil that we are seeing from Umbridge in the scene with Trelawney, and McGonagall handles it better, but Umbridge tries to mess around with her in the same way she did Trelawney. She’s quizzing Trelawney in front of all of the students, and then making her try to make a prediction, too, on demand? On command?

Eric: I don’t love any of this, of course, right? We’re supposed to feel sad, a little bit, for Trelawney. Also, she did not really have any ability to defend herself on these things. There’s a point to be made where it’s like, “The Inner Eye doesn’t see on command.” Okay, great; she says that. But if Trelawney were a reasonable teacher, a decently accomplished teacher, she could explain the theory in a way. She has to resort to predicting Umbridge’s ill fate, and then she makes a big show of predicting other class members’ ill fate, in the hopes of amusing Umbridge, who it actually should work on – even though it doesn’t – because Umbridge is cruel. But at the same time, you could see how Umbridge falls short later in the chapter for both McGonagall and for Grubbly-Plank, and so had Trelawney, I don’t know, had a different approach, you can see it going a lot better than it went here. But because she really is a fraud, unfortunately, there’s not a lot that can be done for this situation.

Laura: Yeah, I found myself thinking Trelawney could have played this off way differently by just assuming those mystic tones she takes and putting on a smug expression and saying, “Oh, my dear, the Inner Eye does not see upon command, and best be wary those who try to push it” or something like that, instead of seeming nervous and desperate. I mean, everything in her body language, her tone, the way she reacts, it just… yeah, not helpful. [laughs] Not believable.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and she does try to make that excuse, but the way that she does is messy. And honestly, I would buy it. “The Inner Eye cannot see upon command”; that makes sense to me. You can’t pull any old prediction out of a hat whenever you want. That doesn’t seem right. They have to come to you in the right moment.

Eric: Well, she could immediately have brewed up a batch of tea and then read the leaves and told Umbridge what she meant. There’s no confidence. And this is hard; some people don’t do well under pressure. I’m a person who unfortunately thrives under pressure, so I’d be enthralled and engrossed and trying to combat the issue, but Trelawney is going to crumble.

Andrew: Now, that all said, Trelawney’s prediction about Umbridge being in grave danger isn’t totally wrong. I mean, she gets into trouble by the end in the book. And look, everybody ends up in grave danger at some point in their life.

[Jordan laughs]

Andrew: So Trelawney did her best in the moment. And again, it’s just… the way Umbridge handled this was a different type of evil than what we’ve seen from her so far, because this was not the right place to be interviewing her. In front of her students while she’s trying to teach a class? It’s ridiculous.

Laura: Yeah, that’s the other thing, too. I mean, Harry and Ron are able to eavesdrop very easily because Umbridge is just trailing Trelawney around the room while Trelawney is actually trying to engage with her students. And I mean, I think this all boils down to – and Eric, I think you were alluding to this – Umbridge just doesn’t think Divination is a serious subject. And Divination as a subject is, I think… if she had enough time, it would likely end up on the chopping block, because she doesn’t understand it, right?

Eric: Yeah. She’s looking to crank out some wins. She’s looking to discredit as much of Dumbledore’s staff as possible; that’s what this is all about. Because a poor reflection of the staff is a poor reflection on Dumbledore. And so unfortunately, not only is Trelawney being assessed, she’s being assessed by somebody who actively wants to find fault, and Trelawney is essentially the weakest link. That’s why she’s the first one to go. She makes it really easy, unfortunately, for somebody who is evil to oust her.

Laura: Yeah, for sure.

Jordan: I think she already went in there knowing she wanted to get rid of her.

Laura: 100%. I agree, Jordan. Do you think that Umbridge came to Hogwarts with a target list already of the people she wanted to get rid of? The subjects she wanted to get rid of?

Jordan: Yes, I can see the point of that, or her having that in her mind. Maybe not exactly professors, but I mean, Dumbledore did hire Trelawney to come to Hogwarts for protection during the first war. So maybe she heard that rumor, and that’s where the target came from.

Andrew: You could also see word getting back from school to the students, to the parents. “Trelawney, her class, it’s interesting, but she’s not all there. She’s a little out there.” You could see rumors about any teacher spreading well outside of Hogwarts, if they’re there long enough.

Eric: Also, if we kind of ascribe a bigger motive to the Ministry – and this year is all about the Ministry wanting to disarm the students that might rise up against them – what better a way to make them even more powerless than to remove their ability to see the future? Assuming Divination was correct, assuming Divination is a real thing that you can do as a witch or wizard. And I’m sure it is, actually; not the way Trelawney teaches it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The fact that it’s another opportunity for the Ministry to make themselves the almighty authority about what is going on, what’s going to happen, what things mean. Any class or head of a class that purports to tell you what things mean, other than what the official company line is, is bound to be threatened in this kind of regime.

Laura: Okay, well, I predict that this is not going to be the last classroom inspection we see this chapter…

Eric: [laughs] More Umbridge!

Laura: … so we’ll be back with more Umbridge in just a moment.

[Ad break]

Andrew: [imitating Trelawney] “Your prediction was right, Laura!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Unfortunately, right after Divination, the full trio has Defense Against the Dark Arts, and we’re going to get to see Hermione the rebel rise up once again in this lesson. She is not about to take this nonsense, because Umbridge comes in and instructs the class to spend the class hour reading Chapter 2 from their textbook. So it’s very clear that Umbridge does not plan to actually teach a lesson; she’s just going to bring these children in here, instruct them to read from a book, and not speak to each other for an hour and not get any magical practice. And Hermione is not having it. She raises her hand, and Umbridge makes a point of walking over to her to speak to her directly so that they don’t have a cross classroom exchange like they did last time. And when Hermione says, “Yo, I already read this chapter,” Umbridge says, “Move on to Chapter 3,” and Hermione says, “You’ve activated my trap card; I read the entire book.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And this is a moment where I really feel like Hermione orchestrated this because she could predict… she knew exactly how Umbridge was going to play this out. She knew Umbridge was going to challenge her and quiz her on specifics from the reading, which of course… I’m pretty sure Hermione has a photographic memory. She must, because she is able to recall immediately.

Eric: The problem here… and I do agree with you; Hermione was waiting for this, and I think one of her favorite things in the world is being asked something about a book that she read. Her problem is she, I guess, decides to play and go in for that, because ultimately it winds up with her getting penalized. There was another way for her to… she’s so angry at Umbridge. She’s so angry at Umbridge, and obviously so, for giving them non-practical lessons that she cannot contain herself. And so that’s why when Umbridge is like, “Oh, read Chapter 3,” and she’s like, “I did,” Hermione adds, “and I disagree with what Albert Slinkhard says.” And it’s like, okay, Hermione. Harry has an anger problem, or a temper problem, and he always has to do the morally right thing in this chapter, but Hermione is not that far off. She’s so furious with Umbridge, she’s going to try and needle her while she’s the subject of Umbridge’s ire, and it doesn’t work out well for Hermione.

Laura: No, she ends up losing points, but she ends up losing points for something that I would argue is actually modeling what a good lesson would look like, by encouraging students to really interact with the materials that they’re reading, and hear different perspectives to really deepen their appreciation and understand the broader context in an applied setting.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Hermione is doing nothing wrong here.

Andrew: No, this is the beauty of podcasts, book clubs, school in normal circumstances…

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Having these healthy debates with constructive criticism. We here on the show get emails from time to time; “I can’t believe you’re criticizing x, y, z.” It’s, again, one of our favorite taglines: “We criticize because we care.” It’s good to have these debates. We can’t just “Yes, and” everything and be like, “That was all amazing.” So yeah, I totally agree with Laura. It’s really awful that Umbridge doesn’t want to hear any different approaches to what the author was writing in this book and to her lessons.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and Harry can’t keep quiet either, so since he can’t shut his mouth, guess what he gets in return?

Eric: Does it start with a D?

Andrew: To not tell more lies.

Laura: [laughs] Yep, another week’s detention. Yay! Harry notes that the cut on the back of his hand has only just recently healed, so he’s getting ready to go back in for that. And Harry really can’t get a break, because now he’s in trouble with Angelina. She’s the Gryffindor Quidditch captain now, and she’s pretty ticked off that Harry is about to miss more Quidditch practice because he can’t stop getting detention.

Eric: Can’t stop, won’t stop. Am I right?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, I understand her frustration here, because not only does he know that Angelina needs him at these practices, but McGonagall has also told Harry to keep it under control with Umbridge as well, and he can’t help himself.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, and McGonagall takes points as well. She’s like, “Harry, didn’t I tell you? Didn’t I talk to you about not fighting with Umbridge? Five points from Gryffindor.” [laughs]

Andrew: Angry Harry this book.

Eric: Well, he asks her why, and then she says, “Because I didn’t think the detentions alone set in,” and I’m like, that’s fair, actually.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, if the bleeding hand isn’t going to do it, what will? A few extra points from McGonagall, I guess. Worse than pain in your hand.

Eric: Again, it’s that peer pressure thing of your… this is why it would have been a good way to control Fred and George; your Housemates are disappointed in you if you lose points for your House. You have to answer to them as a social structure, peer issue thing.

Andrew: Yeah. And you know what? To these points, getting points docked by McGonagall, being yelled at by Angelina, can hurt more than his bleeding hands, because he respects Angelina and McGonagall. He doesn’t respect Umbridge.

Eric: Right. The only other thing I’ll say about Quizzitch… or Quidditch…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … and Angelina’s ire is that Harry is not really needed at practice, because his role on the team doesn’t interact with the other players at all.

Andrew: But it helps build rapport and…

Eric: If you’re down a Chaser, okay, the other two are… it’s not the same vibe. But as the Seeker, you only have work to do when the Snitch is out there, and then you do your thing and you go home.

Andrew: You sound like Harry. “Oh, I’m the Chosen One. I don’t need to be at practice.”

[Jordan and Laura laugh]

Eric: No, I mean…

Andrew: “They’ll do fine without me.”

Eric: You know what I’m saying, though?

Andrew: Yeah, I’m just messing with you.

Eric: Yeah, the consequence of him not making practice is there’s no one there to catch the fake Snitch.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know. I have to imagine that Seekers must have an extra job during practice because of how much downtime they have. I don’t know what it would be.

Jordan: He’s probably also seen as a leader on the pitch too.

Eric: Well, that’s it.

Jordan: So having someone there…

Andrew: Maybe he serves Snitchwiches made by Harry and the Potters.

Eric: Heck yeah.

Andrew: They used to hand those out at Harry Potter cons. [laughs]

Eric: That would be cool. Good reference.

Laura: Do we think it’s reasonable for Harry to be mad at McGonagall here? Because he’s kind of a little miffed when she walks away, and he has this thought of, “I’m the one getting my hand sliced into; why are you getting on my case?” And I’m like, “Dude, she doesn’t know, because you won’t tell her.”

Eric: It comes down to that.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: And if he did tell McGonagall, Umbridge would disappear. She would literally… they would not find her body.

[Andrew and Jordan laugh]

Eric: And so it just is one of those things where Harry thinks he knows best and he wants to get all righteous and angry. Whatever, he’s a teenager. We were all that way.

Andrew: What do you think McGonagall would have done to Umbridge, Eric? You said disappear…

Eric: Transfigure in a way that no one would ever expect.

Andrew: Ever recognize her again? Okay.

Laura: Oh, dear.

Eric: I mean, no, honestly, I’ll backtrack all of what I just indicated, because McGonagall really does show everyone how it’s done regarding Umbridge. The fact that McGonagall is inspected by Umbridge and essentially calls her out, calls Umbridge out on all of the interrupting, saying, “How are you supposed to get a good idea of what class is like if you keep hem-hemming during this class? Sit down and let me take control.” And she takes control of the class. The way you win against somebody like Umbridge is by being confident and by knowing your stuff. And resisting doesn’t look like the way Harry does it; resisting looks like the way McGonagall does it.

Laura: Yeah, McGonagall’s approach is very much to make the experience as uncomfortable for Umbridge as she possibly can. It’s not about trying to drive her out of the classroom; it’s about making her look like a fool, and she does very successfully. Do we think this is a more effective resistance method than student-led protest at this stage?

Andrew: Yeah, because the other risk of really going for Umbridge’s jugular is Umbridge can potentially get rid of McGonagall, so she has to walk a careful line. And McGonagall’s strategy seems to work because, as we’ll get to in a minute, she takes a different strategy with Grubbly-Plank. She’s more hands-off and watching the lesson until the end.

Laura: What do you think, Jordan? Do you think McGonagall is modeling a better method of resisting than what Harry is doing?

Jordan: I do. I don’t think she’ll ever respect McGonagall, but I think she respects that method more, and it will get the situation further than the way Harry is doing it, because the way Harry is going about it, she’s just getting more angry, and it’s not helping anything. So I do think it’s more effective.

Eric: Yeah, you can’t get emotional. That’s kind of where you fail, is when you’ve gotten emotional, they’ve won.

Andrew: Yeah, and that’s exactly the strategy that Harry has been taking; he doesn’t want to show any pain when he’s in the detentions. Though, the funny thing is he does get emotional elsewhere.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Well, to the point that was made, it feels like Umbridge is everywhere. I was reading this chapter, and I was like, “Does this woman have a Time-Turner?”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Obviously she’s not jumping around in time, but she’s just everywhere, and I’m like, “How is she doing this?” So she is, of course, surveying Care of Magical Creatures, and she seems way more interested in grilling Grubbly-Plank about Hagrid’s whereabouts than she does about the actual content of the class. And the class actually does Hagrid proud, which is a good moment. Umbridge goes around asking students questions, and Harry notes that people answered reasonably well and seemed fairly knowledgeable on the subject, so that’s actually a good reflection for Hagrid.

Andrew: For now.

Laura: But Umbridge definitely notes Dumbledore is very cagey about talking about where Hagrid is and when he’ll be back. “Grubbly-Plank, do you know?”

Andrew: “No. No, I don’t.”

[Jordan and Laura laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think she does.

Andrew: No, I don’t think so either. And she says, “Dumbledore just called me in, and I didn’t really hear any other details.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: She was like, “Yeah, sure, I’ll show up.” She just seems very laidback. And I actually love this scene with Umbridge, because we go from the intense encounters between Umbridge and McGonagall, and Umbridge and Trelawney, to this, where Grubbly-Plank is sort of just very laidback by it. She has a good interaction with Umbridge. Grubbly-Plank, like we’re saying, seems to be honest about not knowing where Hagrid is. And at the end, Umbridge tells her to expect her results in ten days, and Grubbly-Plank just goes, “Jolly good,” like she doesn’t care.

[Eric and Jordan laugh]

Andrew: She’s like, “Yep, okay. Fine. Cool.”

Eric: You ever know those older people that are, I don’t know, former retirees or whatever, and they have literally nothing going on at home? They’re not sad about it, but when they’re asked to teach, they’re just happy to do it! They come in, they do their thing, they leave. My mom is this person now, just happy to come in and be at the school for as long as they’re needed. They go home. They have a life outside of it, but it’s not… there’s no rushing. There’s no deeper meaning. There’s just… Grubbly-Plank is this person who enjoys the work and…

Andrew: Just going along for the ride. I don’t know; there’s a word for this that’s escaping me right now, but yeah, she’s just very chill about the whole thing. And it’s great, compared to the other two encounters, like I said. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, well, and she doesn’t have a teaching post to lose, right? She’s a substitute, so the pressure is way lower for her. She’s going to be like, “Oh, Ministry inspection. Okay. I know what I’m doing.” But the subject of classroom injuries, of course, has to come up in Care of Magical Creatures, and Malfoy is, of course, happy to jump to the front of the line on this one to talk about the vicious hippogriff attack that left him maimed a couple of years ago. And Harry, still unable to keep his mouth shut, says, “Well, yeah, that’s because you were too stupid to listen to the directions,” and what does he get?

Eric: Does it start with a D and does it end in -etention?

[Jordan and Laura laugh]

Laura: Another night of detention. It’s rough. But I wanted to ask: I think it is interesting that she brings up the classroom injuries that have admittedly happened in this class. Do we think Umbridge is addressing any other actual security concerns at Hogwarts? Because I think we’ve established on this show that she really should. There are actual things to worry about.

Andrew: I think learning what happened to Draco is cause for concern that should be investigated further. She needs to get the true story about what happened there. Not yet, Laura. I think as we continue going through this book, we might see some other concerns that are more valid, but at the moment, nothing is really jumping out to me other than Trelawney’s reliability, and that’s not exactly a security issue, but it is a valid education issue.

Laura: For sure. Well, I am going to give a shout-out to the essence of Murtlap here as we reach the end of the chapter…

Andrew: No!

Laura: … just because we gave it that shout-out at the start of the discussion, so I felt like I needed to bookend it. But that’s because Harry comes back from another night’s detention, and Hermione has the essence of Murtlap all ready for Harry’s poor, bloody, aching hand, and as they’re sitting there and he’s soaking his hand, Hermione takes the rebellious streak to another level, and this chapter ends with her positing to Harry that they should learn Defense Against the Dark Arts from him…

Andrew: [imitating Harry] “What do you mean?”

Laura: … since no one else is actually going to teach them anything about this subject.

Andrew: [imitating Harry] “What?”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: This book is so long because of this scene. Ron and Harry can’t figure out what Hermione is actually trying to say here.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: It goes around in circles a little too long.

Laura: It does.

Eric: Well, yes, but knowing, I guess, that the book was going to turn in this direction, it’s satisfying. Finally, okay, we got this out of the way. Because I think realistically, organically, all of these things had to sit mostly with Hermione, but also with the whole student body in order for there to be a need where everyone’s like, “Oh, yeah, I’m going to sign up for lessons.” They have to start to see how, at the very least, Umbridge sucks. They wouldn’t have done it September 2 if they got an invitation to go take Defense lessons; they needed this time to really see what the issues were and to give Harry a chance. The few outbursts that he’s had have actually probably piqued people’s interest, which is what we see in the next chapters has happened. So it needed time to sit in, so I’m glad that we can now move forward.

Andrew: Well, and don’t get me wrong; I like what Hermione says by the end of this, explaining to Harry why he actually is a perfect fit for this role. And Harry experiences imposter syndrome here; before Hermione gives him a good talk about this, he says, “Everything I’ve done was just luck,” and I wanted to do a bit of make the real life connection here. Have you three also experienced imposter syndrome, where maybe you’ve chalked up some of what you’ve done in your life to luck? I mean, I think it’s fair to say that we’ve been lucky – taking this podcast as an example – but there is a lot of skill here that’s gone into the show over the years. It takes reliability; it takes a lot of planning; it takes a lot of reading and analysis in advance, but yet, I still chalk some of it up to luck. It’s hard sometimes to accept that what you’ve done took a lot of effort outside of just luck.

Eric: That’s a great point, and well said. I mean, Micah leased a whole office building in downtown Manhattan when we didn’t even know him yet in order to get on this show and be successful for the news center.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Are you talking about the news office?

Eric: Yeah, the news office.

Andrew: Okay. [laughs] I was going to say, where is this going?

Eric: The MuggleCast News Center in New York. That was his doing, and look at him now.

Andrew: Does imposter syndrome get y’all sometimes?

Laura: Yeah, for sure. I mean, how can it not? I think that’s a pretty common experience for people, whether you’re on a podcast or it’s just in your day job too. I don’t know. Anytime… I have a younger brother, for example, and so there will definitely be times where if he asks for my advice on something, I will be like, “I am not remotely qualified to answer this question, because I still don’t know the answer to this question.” [laughs] I think it’s a normal part of life.

Eric: Familiarize yourself with the possibility that everyone around you doesn’t know the answer either.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Everybody’s stupid.

Laura: Yep, life gets a lot easier when you realize that.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: One of my favorite Michelle Obama quotes – and actually, one of my favorite quotes ever – is Michelle Obama said maybe while promoting a book, or she said it in a book, one of her books, she was like, “I have met some of the most powerful famous people in the world, and let me tell you, they are no better than you are.” And her point was everybody has their issues. Nobody is better than anyone else. I was like, “Wow, that’s refreshing.” If she’s met everybody in the world, basically, and this was one of her big takeaways? That’s pretty cool.

Eric: [laughs] That strikes me, though… meeting another group or meeting people that I have high esteem for, and finding they’re just people. We’re all just people.

Andrew: Yeah. But Harry, you’re somebody who could lead a class.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Harry is somebody that could lead a… yeah, he manages to make it interesting.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and also, what it really is more like is it’s like a club that Harry is the leader of. And they do point out to him, “Hey, the whole reason we’re all so concerned about Umbridge teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts is because we know what’s out there waiting. We know Voldemort is out there. She’s never had to deal with him, and you have, so we’ll take your experience over whatever theoretical classroom stuff she’s trying to foist upon us that’s not going to be helpful.”

Eric: That would be a good point even if Umbridge was teaching them things. If the Ministry line was still that Voldemort isn’t back, but they were getting practical lessons, Harry would still have something to offer, because he’s faced Voldemort.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: All right, now we’re going to get into our MVP of the Week, and I just had a fun question that made me giggle during the chapter where Professor McGonagall reprimands Dean for doing something to his mouse in class. They’re learning how to darken mice in Transfiguration, and McGonagall says something to Dean basically along the lines of, “Dean, if you do that to that mouse again, you’re going to be in for it.” [laughs]

Eric: “I shall put you in detention,” yeah.

Laura: What do we think Dean Thomas…? What did he do? What was he trying to do?

Andrew: Well, first of all, I’m really glad Micah is not here to answer this question…

Laura: Yes, me too.

[Jordan laughs]

Andrew: … because I shudder to think what his answer would be.

Eric: Yes, that means we don’t have to move it to the paywall.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That’s the only reason I asked it this week.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: I would have had a different question.

Andrew: Thinking about a mouse, my favorite mouse in history is Chuck E. Cheese, and I’m thinking he turned it into one of the original Chuck E. Cheese robots, and then made Chuck E. perform all of Dean’s favorite songs that he’s seen Chuck E. do at his wonderful, world-famous pizza shops. And before you say, “Andrew, Chuck E. Cheese isn’t over in the UK,” actually, they’re not yet over there. I learned earlier today that they have announced they’re going to be opening locations in the UK, so this answer is relevant, even if…

Eric: Is it going to be under his more formal legal name, Charles Entertainment Cheese?

Andrew: I would like that. I would like if they got back to basics, but I don’t know.

Eric: Yeah. Well, it’s a quick amount of time that Dean Thomas is doing this thing, so I think that Dean made the mouse dance the Saturday Night Fever dance…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … which McGonagall clearly hates. Canonically, she does not like disco. It is known.

Laura: Yeah, tracks for me. I think that he was trying to transfigure it into the rat from Ratatouille so that he could have his own personal chef 24/7.

Eric: Augh, we all want a little Remy.

Laura: Yeah, who wouldn’t?

Eric: Just make dinner with me. Using me.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I don’t want to do it.

Jordan: Well, I think he was using it to torture Lavender Brown, because we find out how scared she was touching the box, so I think he was levitating it in her face or something.

Andrew: Ooh, I like that.

Laura: Oh, yeah. I like that. I like that.

Eric: That’s easily what…

Laura: That feels like a real answer.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]


Lynx Line


Laura: All right, now it is time for our Lynx Line, which is our newest benefit on Patreon. And thank you so much to all of you who support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, just like Jordan does, and thank you, everyone, for answering this week’s question. The question I posed to all of you is if you were High Inquisitor of Hogwarts, what would your top priority be? And I specifically called out we welcome serious and non-serious answers, so I’m predicting we’re going to have a mix here.

Andrew: Julianne said, quite simply, “A DEI Council. Too soon?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Jen OG says,

“I’d get straight into sorting out the Wi-Fi. How are students meant to catch up on their socials? The world is deprived of Fred and George’s TikToks! It’s the key to international magical cooperation. Not to mention, the Hogwarts residents can’t keep up to date on their favorite podcasts. You know Dumbledore would love to be kicking back listening to the latest true crime podcast! Finally, Harry and Ron having access to the Internet might give Hermione a much needed break!”

God, what if she could just say to them, “Google it”?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, she would totally do that.

Andrew: I would want to see Fred and George’s TikTok channel too. I think they would be crushing it.

Laura: I mean, I feel like Fred would have to be doing that from beyond the veil, right?

Andrew: All right, well…

Laura: So are we getting TikTok among the living and in the afterlife?

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Well, isn’t the whole thing about TikTok is that it’s one person, but you play different characters from opposite sides, and you splice yourself in?

Andrew: You can.

Laura: Yeah. Rachel says,

“I’d crack down on the bullying that goes on, most often between students of different Houses, but sometimes within the House. Honestly, I think the Sorting Hat could make a great guidance counselor, so I wouldn’t even have to hire anyone to help students who have been victims. I’d also ensure students have appropriate protective gear in classes like Potions, Herbology, and Care of Magical Creatures.”

Eric: I love that.

Laura: So a serious answer, but some good ideas there.

Eric: I’ve never once considered the Sorting Hat as a psychologist, and I actually really like it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Is that ethical, though?

Eric: Dispute mediation? Yeah, you’d be like, “Hey, this person is bullying you; they’re just compensating because they have this poor relationship with…” right? And then it’s like, “Oh, I gave them the key to understanding this person better, to breed empathy.” And then you tell the other person, “Hey, why are you this way? That person is just trying to get by.”

Laura: Yeah, but a guidance counselor that can see inside your head? I don’t know about that. [laughs]

Eric: I don’t know; I kind of think they’d be effective.

Jordan: Stephanie said,

“My top list of priorities would be stop any use of paper straws at Hogwarts. Eco-friendliness is not necessary in the wizarding world. Number two, fire Hagrid and any non-human teachers, because let’s be real, they only get hired due to diversity and inclusion policies that Dumbledore wanted to implement. And number three, clear the names of all known Death Eaters and their children, because they were just trying to make a better world for all of us. And number four, rename all the local landmarks to have something to do with Hogwarts and wizard supremacy. That would be a great start.”

Laura: With the melting face emoji.

Jordan: With the melting face emoji. [laughs]

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: That one was feeling too real, so I’ll just move on. This is from Danielle:

“I’d start with making sure all the teachers are living.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Every single student is bored out of their minds in Binns’s class. It’s time to help him cross into the afterlife.”

Wow, rude again.

[Everyone laughs]

“While we’re at it, get the Bloody Baron the heck out of there, because Helena Ravenclaw shouldn’t have to run the risk of seeing her murderer every freaking day.”

Laura: Right?

Andrew: That I’m cool with.

Eric: That’s true, yeah. Seeing as how they’re both their Houses’ head ghost, that’s just absolutely wild. Catherine says,

“I think I would have to go with supporting students who clearly are struggling with classes or magic in general, whether that is better equipment to do their work with, like Neville, who clearly needs a new wand to do a better spellwork, or someone to help with tutoring. Nowhere is it mentioned in the books that there’s a tutoring center or a discretionary fund to help students with supply needs. I think it would be beneficial for all students at Hogwarts, not only grade-wise, but even school unity.”

Laura: Yeah, definitely. Jason says,

“First, as a teacher for 27 years, I’d have to say cracking down on Snape’s treatment of any students not in Slytherin. Second, I’d tell Fudge that the Ministry has no business interfering at Hogwarts. I might also explore the possibility of either Sorting later in their Hogwarts years or doing away with it altogether.”

Jordan: Nolan said,

“Hire top Aurors and Unspeakables from the Ministry as consultants to find every security nightmare in that castle! You’re telling me we went through the Chamber of Secrets, Dementors on the castle grounds, and multiple secret mass murderers hidden in that castle without a security audit? Hell, I’ll even support Umbridge getting Dumbledore impeached if she was the first to even try to make that place safe for children to live there.”

Andrew: What, Nolan?

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: Catherine said, “Launch an investigation into the Chamber of Secrets and why no one thought to question Moaning Myrtle and search the bathroom.” Face palm emoji.

Eric: The next one is Christa.

“The first thing I’d do is hire guidance counselors at Hogwarts (assuming that’s even a viable career path in the wizarding world.) Mental health is the most important thing, especially for teenagers.”

Laura: Agreed, agreed. And finally, ThatBatLady says,

“Two things Umbridge would never care to prioritize: foul play in Quidditch, and addressing some minor security concerns… I have a vague recollection of hearing of such issues somewhere. 😉 It may also be the right time to look into the sherry shortages that have mystified the house-elves of late.”

Ooh, shots fired at Trelawney.

Andrew: [laughs] Great answers, everybody, as always. And don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And by the way, one Patreon perk for Slug Club members: We do offer occasional merch store discounts at MuggleCastMerch.com, and we thought in light of Hogwarts finally being exposed for the mess that it is by Umbridge, Slug Club patrons can get 15% off all security nightmare and security consultant merchandise at MuggleCastMerch.com, like this hat I am wearing tonight. Don’t miss this opportunity to don a security consultant hat and take some action at the most dangerous school in the wizarding world. If you have any feedback about today’s chat, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, we’ll be discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “In the Hog’s Head.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: First discovered in the year 1610, the four largest moons of the planet Jupiter are called Io, Europa, Ganymede, and what? And the correct answer is Callisto! 50% of people said they did not look this up. Correct answers were submitted by Buff Daddy; Elves Just Wanna Have Fun; I studied astronomy in college until I realized I’d probably be in school for 18 more years; Kendrick Lamar’s Dolores diss track…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … LadyHermioneLookALike; Patronus Seeker; Sir Snape is a Vape; That’s no moon, it’s a space station; The Humble Hogwarts Post Owl, Making No Hoots and Pretending He Doesn’t Exist; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; and The Tea Leaves are Foreboding.

Andrew: I’m just going to say something maybe controversial: I don’t believe people when they say they didn’t look a question up. 50%? 50%?! I don’t buy it.

Laura: That’s a direct challenge. That’s Andrew’s diss track for all of you…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: … for participating in Quizzitch and allegedly lying.

Andrew: [to the beat of “Not Like Us” by Kendrick Lamar] “Fifty percent. Fifty percent. I don’t believe it. Believe it.”

Laura: [laughs] No, for real, though, I would love a Kendrick diss track for Umbridge. Is he a Harry Potter fan? And could we make it happen? I’m serious.

Andrew: We’ll have to find out.

Eric: Okay, here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In the US of A, the College Board administers the SAT, which has a high score, perfect score, of 1600. What is the lowest score you can score on the SAT? Really just the educators might know this one, but I encourage you – it is open book, so go look it up. Try not to use AI; that’s my challenge. But submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the MuggleCast website, maybe reading transcripts or checking out our wall of fame, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please tell your friends about us. Remind them that we’re covering the Harry Potter TV show and going chapter by chapter through the books. Also, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Eric, Micah, Meg, and I are discussing cozy video games, and then over on Millennial, we’re discussing the rising trend of digital shoplifting and how people are getting away with it, myself included.

Laura: I was going to say, “people” in this case means Andrew.

Andrew: Leave me alone.

[Jordan and Laura laugh]

Andrew: These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you. Listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years, and there’s lots of great ways to help us out. I mentioned a few minutes ago, visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast T-shirts, hoodies, glassware, and hats. Apple Podcasts subscribers can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, like a new one we’re recording after today’s episode. And for all of the benefits that we have to offer, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get all the benefits of Gold, plus livestreams, Lynx Line participation, a new physical gift every year, personal video message from one of the four of us, and the opportunity to cohost MuggleCast one day, just like Jordan did today. Thank you for joining us, Jordan.

Jordan: Thank you for having me.

Andrew: All right. Well, thanks, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Jordan: And I’m Jordan.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye.

Transcript #692

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #692, New Quill Who Dis? (OOTP Chapter 14, Percy and Padfoot)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, including the books and forthcoming TV show. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, we’re taking deep breaths because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Percy and Padfoot.” But before we get into that chapter, a couple of important reminders: As we continue to analyze the books and prepare to cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your financial support allows us to focus more time on the show, spend more time in the wizarding world, and less time in the boring Muggle world. And in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast. We release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon, and we have a lot of fun talking about different aspects of the Potter fandom outside of Chapter by Chapter. They’re a nice break, as much as we enjoy talking about each chapter in the Harry Potter series. And don’t miss the latest bonus in which we re-Sorted the Weasley characters. Eric led that discussion, right?

Eric: It was a really good time, based on an email, a Muggle Mail, that we got from Iris.

Andrew: Oh, good. Okay, good to know. Well, we will keep that up then. In fact, while we were doing that bonus MuggleCast, I had an idea: I feel like we should re-Sort characters in the FMK game style, so we got into that a little bit in that bonus. And there will be more re-Sorting to come.

Eric: Very fun.

Andrew: And after you pledge to our Patreon, by the way, you can listen to bonus MuggleCast episodes and ad-free episodes of the show right within your favorite podcast app, so you’ll continue to enjoy MuggleCast as you always have been, but without advertising and with more MuggleCast! I mean, it’s perfect.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: So without further ado, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Percy and Padfoot” is what we are discussing this week.

Eric: We last spoke about this chapter on Episode 450, which was titled “Weekend at Hogwarts.” It aired on January 21, 2020, right before a big life event for all of us, and here’s that audio clip.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Hmm, what was that?

Eric: It was a simpler time, Laura!

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 450.

Andrew: If I was at Hogwarts, I would probably start off with, like, “What spells have you learned recently?” Or like, “How’s your wand doing?” Or “How’s your owl?”

Pat: Yeah, especially since Cho is a year older, they are in different classes. They’re in different…

Laura: That’s true.

Pat: Yeah, there’s way more to talk about.

Laura: He could always be like, “Hey, do you see that boney, winged horse down there? Kind of weird.”

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: “Oh, you don’t? Me neither.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “Just testing you.”

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: Laura, you sounded so much younger only five years ago.

Laura: Oh, wow. I don’t know how to take that, or why you’re singling me out. What’s that about?

Andrew: [laughs] I just thought you sounded youngest on the panel there.

Laura: Oh, I see. Well, see, at that point I was not yet saddled with the jaded nature that comes as you get into your mid to late 30s, and stuff has happened since then, as we established.

Andrew: Aww, yeah.

Eric: I think a few of us have been on that journey lately, yeah.

[Laura laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Let’s crack into it. And something that I really enjoy from the first part of this chapter is that there are some moments when characters really come together. We’ve really been focused how divided everyone is in this book, even within the Gryffindor House, but it’s not always the case. So there’s some good looking out and general camaraderie, and I just want to shout out Nearly Headless Nick, because Harry is distracted walking out of Gryffindor Tower. He’s got places to be; he’s got things to do. Nearly Headless Nick tells him, “Hey, be careful. Peeves is around the corner, and he’s going to drop this stone bust of Paracelsus on whoever is next.” And Harry is like, “Thanks,” and he takes a shortcut. I’m just like, you know what? Nearly Headless Nick, who does not have to fear death or mortal peril, is nonetheless saving… looking out for other students and preventing them from being injured, or worse, killed.

Andrew: It’s nice to see, but it’s too bad the kindness of the ghosts doesn’t rub off on other students. What we’re really looking for, what we’ve been talking about, is more student-to-student kindness. House-to-House.

Micah: I think in that situation, Nick is actually preventing Harry from getting into trouble, because we know Peeves and his antics, but given what Harry has already gone through up till this point in the year, there’s a high likelihood that he would be blamed for whatever occurs.

Eric: That happens, as we see, yes.

Micah: And I do think, though, it is cool that the Gryffindor House ghost and the Slytherin House ghost have a good enough relationship that Nick can go to the Bloody Baron to take care of Peeves. Speaking of unity, Eric, this is another example.

Eric: Inter-House… yeah, partnership.

Micah: It does exist.

Eric: Even in the afterlife, or maybe only in the afterlife, as it were. Also, knowing the Baron’s full history from Deathly Hallows and knowing the tragic fate, etc., I like that the Baron, I don’t know, occupies his time in the afterlife with hassling Peeves out of being a menace? That’s a real good redemption thing for the Baron.

Micah: Yeah. And I thought it could be fun to do a name origin here for Paracelsus, because who the hell is this guy?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, who the hell is this guy, Micah?

Eric: It’s actually the name of a… what is it? A pallet jack at work with googly eyes on it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Oh. Well, that actually sounds far more entertaining than what I was going to say.

Eric: That’s what you were going to say, Micah, right? Former name origins, yeah, yeah… anyway, but who was he historically?

Micah: Historically, he was a pioneer in several aspects of the medical revolution during the Renaissance, emphasizing the value of observation in combination with received wisdom. He is credited as the father of toxicology, and he also had a substantial influence as a prophet, and his prognostications were studied in the 17th century, and Paracelsianism is the early modern medical movement that was inspired by his studies and works. So…

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Andrew: Whoa!

Micah: Where did that come from?

Eric: It came from the universe, Micah. Every time you pay a historic figure some real respect, do them a real solid, that’s the sound that plays.

Micah: And we know these types of names aren’t randomly thrown into the series. They usually have some sort of reasoning behind them. I didn’t dig that deep, but…

Eric: Well, it’s probably pretty ironic to be injured or killed by a bust of this medical medicine man.

Micah: Marvel.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and something… actually, Eric, you kind of picked up on what I was thinking of reading over these notes. Given that he emphasized the value of observation, the importance of observation, and we know that Peeves is waiting to drop the bust on the head of some unsuspecting student, maybe the irony is you’ve got to watch where you’re going, because you never know what Peeves is going to drop on you.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: Be observant.

Andrew: Hogwarts Legacy spoiled me so much that now every time in these books when I hear about a statue that Harry is walking by, or a bust, I’m seriously going to Google to see if it was also in Hogwarts Legacy, because they carried so much over…

Micah: Was it?

Andrew: Not in this case, no. But they just carried so much over from the books, and it was so fun to see little references to the books in the video game.

Eric: Yeah, and similarly while doing these rereads, I really want Harry to come upon a Demiguise statue…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … but no such luck. It swings both ways there.

Andrew: Maybe in Book 8.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: What is the line that’s always said? “Mind now, Demiguise.”

Eric: “Now, now, Demiguise,” or yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “Now, now, Demiguise,” or something like that. You can only get him at night, though.

Andrew: A Demiguise!

Micah: And in the Discord, Justin is pointing out that he was also an alchemist, so that is not a surprise.

Laura: Aha!

Eric: Ahh. There definitely is a place… there’s probably a special secret chamber at Hogwarts specifically for alchemists.

Laura: He definitely knew Nicolas Flamel.

Eric: Oh, yeah. They were buds.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So here we go onto the next, and my favorite example of just good looking out on each other. Harry is going to the owlery because his big deal is getting a letter to Sirius. It’s written in code, but he also needs to make haste and not really be observed to be sending the letter. Bumps into Cho, and one thing leads to another; it’s a really nice conversation that they have, we’re going to talk about. But is soon confronted – Micah, to your point – by Filch, who suspects Harry of breaking the rules. And Cho actually, sort of with nothing to gain from it, stands up for Harry and says, “Actually, I saw him send the letter already. He doesn’t have it on him. You don’t need to search him; you don’t need to cause a scene here.” And I just thought that was really nice, especially… there’s your inter House unity, Andrew! There’s a Ravenclaw helping out at Gryffindor!

Andrew: [laughs] Aww.

Eric: You spoke too soon.

Andrew: I did. I apologize. I just got ahead of myself with the notes here.

Eric: You got a-head of yourself? Eh? That bust is, uh, shoulders up.

Andrew: [laughs] No, it is good to see. And to me, I was thinking about how this is a nice early glimpse at what a romantic relationship should be like in general. You have each other’s backs for the hard times. I mean, Cho is standing with Harry here unequivocally, and it’s thrilling for Harry, because not only does he have a crush on her, but it’s somebody… it’s another person on his side. He’s slowly building up this army, if you will, of people who support and believe him.

Eric: Yeah. Is it too soon to be reading into…? We know there’s sort of a short-lived romance between these two characters. Cho is not doing this, defending him to Filch, because she’s romantically into him, but nevertheless, Harry does get that out of this. Harry is just… he’s got this confidence all of a sudden because the girl he has a crush on stood up for him. So is it too soon to ship Cho and Harry in these books? And actually, does anybody ever ship Cho and Harry?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Or do we all just kind of read those chapters tolerating it? Going, “Ah, this won’t last.”

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think so.

Micah: Well, we don’t know how Cho feels yet, and obviously we know how Harry feels because we’re reading the book through his perspective, but I do get a sense from Cho that she’s kind of pissed that Filch showed up, so I think that’s part of it too. Here they are having this moment together, and probably she’s wanted to talk to Harry for some time. This is not the first time that she’s actively trying… I mean, she happens to run into him here in the owlery, but she’s tried to speak to him at other points in this book, and it just hasn’t worked out. Thanks, Neville and Ron, for… I don’t even know what you want to call it, but…

Eric: It’s a good making the connection there.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah, so I think part of her certainly doesn’t think that Harry is doing anything wrong, but I think part of her is just angry that this doofus showed up to third wheel the situation.

Andrew: Whoa.

Laura: Yeah, I do love that. I love flipping the perspective here and thinking about how many times has maybe Cho felt the same way that Harry felt when they were trying to interact, and there was some kind of intervention that prevented the conversation from happening? I’m sure she wouldn’t think anything negative about Harry based on the first two attempts to talk to him, but she’s probably like, “Oh my God, that weird kid and his plant, and then Harry’s weird friend gatekeeping about Quidditch, when I definitely am better at it than he is.” You know? I can see her viewing frustration with the incidents, rather than having any kind of negative perspective towards Harry. Harry is obviously self-conscious about it, but… yeah, I love that.

Eric: So with this sort of common enemy that they have in Filch, what really is the end game here? What is this…? Harry saw Mrs. Norris when he was leaving the castle, and he increased his speed because he knows she’s no good. But that’s quite separate altogether from Filch receiving a credible tip that Harry is placing an order for Dungbombs.

Micah: Yeah, it’s definitely suspicious that immediately he has a tail on him and somebody is tracking him down when he’s trying to send out mail. This whole accusation, like you said, Eric, is certainly mysterious in nature, who tipped Filch off in the first place, and it makes me think that Umbridge is up to no good and really making sure that there are as many eyes on Harry no matter where he goes in the castle, no matter what he does. And I think this is something that actually Hermione theorizes a little bit later on in this book, but I don’t know that we ever get confirmation that it was Umbridge.

Eric: What I like about this idea is that she’s deputized Filch in a way that is not, I think, clear in the books. The movie does a good job of showing how Filch very much 100% loves Umbridge right from the get-go, and he’s involved in pretty much all of her shenanigans. But I also think that with Harry, he has a lot less freedom from day one than even he realizes. And so she’s tightening the leash on the whole school, which we’ll see starting the next chapter and onward, but it’s already gone for him. He already has a tail, to your point. He already really can’t go anywhere without facing heavy scrutiny that’s been on him pretty much since the summer, ever since he told the truth about Voldemort being back.

Micah: Yeah, and this chapter is very much about the tightening, like you’re saying, Eric. We see it start to play out here, but even as we go later on into this chapter. I’m thinking of when Sirius shows up in the fireplace, Hermione is shocked that he would risk doing something like this, and that’s something else that will end up being monitored moving forward. So we have all these forms of communication that are really starting to get locked down.

Andrew: I did find it interesting, too, that at the beginning of this chapter – the first or second page – the fireplace is mentioned, but it’s out. So it’s nice symmetry there where it starts out, and at the end it’s on and Sirius is in it.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And this task, this whole Dungbomb situation, is not just an attempt to put Harry on edge and catch him in the act of something and just make him feel bad, and also maybe get a look at what it was he was sending, which 100% had Umbridge gotten a hold of it, or had Filch gotten a hold of it and would have given it to Umbridge, it would have been a bigger deal. And that can’t be legal, but it was attempted, and attempted with a reasonable degree of certainty of success, so that’s just a shame. But there’s also an ongoing effort to discredit Dumbledore, and in fact, just a sidebar here, because we have other examples of students looking out for other students. But essentially, when the newspaper comes, we hear that Sturgis Podmore was caught trying to break into the Ministry, and there’s a moment where Ron Weasley really shows us what, Andrew? That he’s a smart character?

Andrew: Another example of him being a very smart character, movies!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So they read this report in the Prophet, and then Ron suggests that Sturgis Podmore may have been lured to the Department of Mysteries by the government in an effort to discredit Dumbledore and his allies, and Hermione actually says, “Oh, you know what? I actually wouldn’t be at all surprised if that were true,” and it does sort of end up being accurate. It’s a pretty accurate guess.

Eric: I think it takes something to finally say out loud, this level of subterfuge or all these machinations that are going on behind the scenes, for Hermione to look up and be like, “Actually, this tracks for the world we live in.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: A kind of world where the government itself would be framing its citizenry, or scapegoating its citizenry, in order to further a narrative of lies.

Laura: Yeah, well, and also just being unsurprised that there would be this level of corruption and skullduggery being committed, being perpetuated by the government. And I think we’ve seen this evolution for Hermione, because there is a very long time where she sees authority figures for the most part – not everyone, but for the most part – like teachers, members of the government, as being beyond reproach. But what Umbridge has shown her over these last several weeks is, “Oh, no. We’re in the bad place right now.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And it’s definitely unsettling to be reading this again just a few years after we did it last time, and being able to pick up on real world parallels. I think we keep coming back to that.

Micah: Definitely. And it’s clear, though, that we should be paying attention to what’s going on with Sturgis Podmore, because not only is it mentioned in the Prophet, but Percy brings him up later on in his letter to Ron. And we noted when we did Chapter by Chapter just a couple of months ago the fact that he is MIA a couple times, and actually it gets brought up again in this chapter when he was supposed to be with them at King’s Cross, and Moody was wondering where good old Sturgis was because it wasn’t the first time he missed an assignment. So we should certainly keep tabs on good old Sturgis.

Eric: So if we’re finished talking about Ron being a smart character, let’s talk about Ron being a poor Quidditch player.

Andrew: Aww.

Micah: Oh, come on. That’s not fair.

Eric: I know, I know. No, no, no, he is susceptible, as many of us are… I count myself into the… well, if anyone were really mean to me, I would just cry. But anyway…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The Gryffindor Quidditch team do actually a fairly good job at attempting to set Ron at ease, be like, “You can do this! Let’s go! Come on, you can!” despite these hecklers that show up to their practice from Slytherin, and I’ve got to say, it’s actually… as sad as it is to see Ron fumble, especially his first major practice… since we know all the work he put in from last chapter. But I think the team – even his brothers, who are predisposed to mock him – ultimately come together in a nice way and try and play as one team. He’s no longer the Keeper try-out, possible “We don’t want him to get it”; he’s now their Keeper, and so they have to deal with it, and I think they really do.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and they have no choice but to support Ron, because now they are literally on the same team. It’s not just being in the same House; Fred and George want to win, just like everybody else on the team does, and they have to put their bullying of Ron aside and get the job done. So I don’t see them here as being a good brother to Ron; they just want to win. [laughs] And maybe they’re proud of their brother, too, deep down.

Eric: Yeah, well, I think they more than anybody would know what he needs emotionally. Well, not more than Harry, but if they’re going to actually eke out a good performance despite this very obvious setback… and in fact, I think the Slytherins are even surprised how well their taunts work, which is a shame because they’re obviously emboldened by them.

Andrew: So let’s talk about the taunts. I can’t believe opposing Houses would be allowed to watch these practices happen. It seems like there needs to be at least some practices that the Hogwarts Houses get that are actually private, because when they’re practicing, they might be practicing some strategy, some strategy they don’t want to get out in advance of a game. So it seemed very unfair that… okay, maybe let’s say the Slytherins can sit there and watch, just maybe for educational purposes or whatever. But to also taunt them during the practice? That should not be allowed at all.

[Eric sighs]

Laura: Yeah, but this is Hogwarts.

Andrew: I know.

Laura: And I feel like – and I’m trying to remember this from high school and stuff – but I mean, isn’t there the concept, Micah, of a closed practice and an open practice, where it is permissible sometimes to have spectators?

Micah: Yep.

Laura: And I feel like we see an example of Gryffindor booking the pitch at some point and claiming to have a closed practice when Slytherins were trying to watch. It wasn’t this instance, but it was another one, and I’m just wondering if Hogwarts has that distinction where you’re allowed to call for a closed practice and say, “Get the F out of here.”

Micah: There was; I think it was in Chamber of Secrets where Gryffindor had the pitch booked, and because Draco was the new Seeker, they were able to get Snape to overturn that and give Slytherin the practice time instead, and it really pissed off Oliver Wood.

Eric: Right. Yeah, and Gryffindor have the new Keeper. They could use that excuse.

Micah: Sure. And Laura, you’re definitely right in that there are open practices, there are closed practices, there are such things as scouts, but usually those are at games, not at practices, because these are usually more intimate environments where more planning is taking place, and this is definitely the equivalent of scouting another team’s practices. And I wanted to do a real world comparison, so I looked it up, and it actually differs between the collegiate level and the pro sports levels here in the United States. So according to the NCAA, it’s considered illegal to in-person scout a future opponent’s practice during the same season, so basically, that means you can’t physically attend their practice to gather information about their strategies. Now, at the professional level you can, but there are a lot of different rules and restrictions around what types of practices you’re allowed to attend. And honestly, I don’t even think there’s any scouting going on here; I think they’re just there to make Ron absolutely miserable. That’s the only reason why.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. They enjoy this.

Micah: Is it fair? No, it’s absolutely not fair. But I’m wondering, for Ron, did this actually help him, though? Because imagine him in his first game and the pressure that comes with that. I know we’re going to see that, but this is kind of a taste of that. It’s a bit of a hostile situation.

Andrew: I don’t think it would help me, personally. This would distract me, right? And this is his first practice, isn’t it? As part of the team.

Eric: Yeah, but is it better for him to be made aware that this is something that’s going to exist going forward now than at his first game?

Andrew: I guess. He’s no stranger to bullying, though; he sees Harry being bullied across the series. This concept isn’t exactly new to him.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: But was this the best way for Ron to experience his first “practice”? I guess I wonder if this would have been an opportunity for the team to just meet up and talk a little bit of strategy. Let Angelina introduce her vision of being captain and what she wants the team to work towards this year. I think Ron is already feeling like a fish out of water, and like all eyes are on him because he’s the new guy. Make him feel a little comfortable, make him feel a little welcome before you put him up in front of the whole team, and then whoever from Slytherin is coming to bully everybody in the stands.

Eric: I just think this stems from the Slytherins have nothing better to do on Saturdays. They’re too idle. They need to have more clubs.

Micah: Get a hobby. But for Ron, I do agree the other players are able to really just tune it out because they’re confident in their abilities and they’re confident at playing Quidditch, and they’ve been a part of this team for a number of years, where Ron hasn’t. I did also just want to bring up, though, there’s a lot of things that are being thrown out there, and I don’t want to overlook the fact that Pansy makes a comment to Angelina about her hair that is actually fairly racist.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: It’s just… this is the thing. For students, I think something like racism is learned period, which makes this question what Pansy’s upbringing is. But then also for the students to just casually employ these types of comments, the way that Draco feels perfectly fine bringing up how he’s high class and Ron is low class, these sorts of things, and it generates the fight that eventually bans Harry from Quidditch here, but just the casual way in which the Slytherins say these things that are completely inappropriate. And maybe under a different teacher, if McGonagall were looking, they wouldn’t be able to sit in on practice this way. But this is the year where, just like Snape skewed it for the Slytherins in Book 2, if anyone were to complain to Umbridge about them sitting in or whatever, she would show her partisanship and colors and let the Slytherins off. You just know she would. Anyway, it’s time to not only be not racist, but actively be anti-racist, at Hogwarts and otherwise. So let’s talk about a different direction where unpleasant things come from, but not before we hear about a pleasant thing via this ad break.

Andrew: [laughs] Let’s hope it’s pleasant.

[Ad break]

Eric: Welcome back, and here is a tonic for our previous discussion, if you want to get angry. And this is the reason why we’re taking deep breaths in this chapter: It’s because Ron, of course, gets a letter from Percy, happy Ministry Percy, and it’s kind of unexpected. Ron has just dealt with poor Quidditch performance, and he’s had a long day. Harry has had a long school year so far. The very last thing he expects is to even hear from Percy, but Percy, in his infinite wisdom, has decided that there is something he just needs to share with his brother, more than a congratulations for being prefect.

Andrew: Before we get into the details of the letter, can I just say one thing that struck me about it is how long it is, and I think it speaks to how un-self-aware and how full of himself Percy is. I was reading this on the Kindle initially; it’s, like, eight digital pages I’m flipping through. Then I grabbed the physical copy to see how long it actually is; it’s two and a half full pages. I think that says something, the length of this letter. And I wonder if it’s one of the longest handwritten letters in the Harry Potter books, because it has to be up there.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Oh, wow.

Andrew: Really!

Eric: Yeah, I mean, it is up there with certain news articles that are clipped for us.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: What I think it says ultimately, though, is that Percy is longing for connection to his family because there’s nobody else that he can reach out to, and he thinks that by connecting with Ron this way, that maybe there’s a glimmer of hope that the two of them could be close.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: And this is his idea of getting close?

Eric: Well, even though it fails miserably… and when reading it, you realize it’s bound to fail miserably. Does he even know his brother?

Andrew: No.

Eric: Does he have self-awareness of how he comes off?

Micah: That’s the other thing. That’s such a good point. He doesn’t know Ron, and this proves it.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Yeah. Well, and hasn’t made enough of a case, right? It’s almost the fact that he walked out makes Ron predisposed to not like him, but there’s a whole history of the two of them for that. But yeah, let’s talk about it. So I’m sure Ron would have loved a congratulations from some other people, but from Percy, who has been bullied relentlessly for being proud of being a prefect by Ron’s family, I’m sure getting the congratulations from Percy just makes Ron feel ickier that he, too, is a prefect, right?

Laura: Yeah, it probably doesn’t help. And I mean, we see Ron being really hesitant to throw the book at someone.

Andrew: [laughs] Like his own brothers?

Laura: Yeah, he’s really hesitant to actually exercise any of the authority that’s been given to him, because he doesn’t want… that’s not who he is, right? That’s not who Ron is. Ron is not somebody to try and get other people in trouble; it’s not in his character. So it’s already difficult, and the fact that everybody seems surprised that he got it and that it took a while for the acceptance to come from his friend circle and from his family, to then have the only person who’s proactively reaching out to say, “Hey, I heard about this; that’s so great,” to have it be Percy, it’s the lamest support that you could ever ask for.

Andrew: Aww.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: No, I’m serious.

Andrew: I believe… I know.

Eric: And also, Percy actually tells Ron how he heard about this, and it’s a very bragging, “Oh, I heard it from the Minister himself,” and then he also volunteers that the Minister heard it from Umbridge. The only reason why Dolores Umbridge would be telling Fudge that Ron was made a prefect is if she’s reporting to Fudge about who all are prefects this year, basically who Dumbledore appointed to be prefects, and so this information was no doubt contained in a report on Dumbledore for Fudge provided by Umbridge. Do you guys agree?

Andrew: Yes, but I think it also says something that if Umbridge is reporting this to Fudge, she may be using this as more evidence that Dumbledore is incompetent.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Like, “And he made Ron a prefect; isn’t that messed up? We cannot trust this guy.” Not like Umbridge would know Ron very well…

Eric: No.

Andrew: … but maybe she’s overheard things about the Weasleys.

Laura: No, but it does show that Percy will kind of pick and choose what he likes and doesn’t like. He doesn’t trust Dumbledore, but Dumbledore’s choice to make Ron a prefect, Percy is okay with that.

Eric: Ooh, that’s a good point. I also like… I mean, Percy slanders Fred and George. And on the one hand, we’ve seen Fred and George ruthlessly bully Percy, specifically Percy – it’s pretty much their favorite thing to do in the first four books – so I understand why there’s no love lost there. But by Percy telling Ron, “I must admit that I have always been afraid that you would take what we might call the ‘Fred and George’ route, rather than following in my footsteps,” he makes it a dichotomy, an either/or. And that makes the whole situation even more repulsive, because Ron has always gotten along with Fred and George for the most part, and so this idea that he’s breaking away, breaking out of Fred and George and following in Percy’s footsteps, really presupposes that Ron and Percy are closer than they ever really were and would be again.

Laura: Yeah, or that Ron only had two paths available to him. Eric, you said something that actually resonates with a comment from Ariane in our Discord, who says, “Does it say something that Percy, who is usually bullied, is the only one reaching out to Ron, who is usually ignored? Maybe he feels they’re both the odd ones out in the family.”

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I love that. And I also love – getting back to what Micah was saying about the psychology of what Percy is dealing with now – the becoming of a prefect is Percy’s in to have some level of pretext, a reason to reach out.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: Yeah, and so I think that… he also tells Ron, hopefully he’ll “be able to read this away from prying eyes.” Again, it’s self-important to say that, but it’s also attempting to be given that level of privacy, which shows trust and connection. Again, it’s all… I think Micah is right; I think it’s all about connecting to family and, I don’t know, trying to be connected again when he did something that he’s not yet ready to own.

Micah: He’s striving for points of connection, like you’re saying, with the prefect, with going down a road that is not the road that Fred and George are going down… he is really trying to find that point to connect with Ron on. But it does show you, when you were talking about how he tells Ron that hopefully he’s reading this away from prying eyes, that he’s aware of the fact that the Ministry is likely monitoring communication. That’s what I took away from… think about how he goes about communicating with Ron. He’s doing it under the cover of night, he’s sending his owl to Gryffindor Tower, and he’s hoping that there’s not going to be anybody around Ron at this time, so he knows what’s going on.

Eric: Well, that said, if the Ministry opened that letter from Percy, they would love it. I think Umbridge would frame it if she had it. I think there’s not a risk… I don’t think Percy is worried about the Ministry getting the letter; I think he’s worried about Harry seeing it, or any… it’s just a fundamental misread of Ron to think that Ron wouldn’t share something like communication from your brother. Harry would cheer him on. It’s the difference between Ron having friends and Percy not having friends.

Andrew: Exactly, and Percy is assuming that Harry could read this letter, which means that Harry and Ron are probably close enough that Ron would share the letter with Harry, which means they are good friends, so Percy is insane to assume that Ron is just going to cut things off with his good friend Harry just because Percy is showing up out of the blue and making that request!

Eric: Yeah, it makes Percy seem way, way off, even more.

Micah: I wonder, though, does Percy think there’s a chance that Dumbledore would intercept this and read it, and that’s why he’s following a similar approach, doing it kind of under the cover of night? I don’t know. When I read this letter, I went back to something that we’ve talked about before: I think it would have been absolutely amazing if Percy was a double agent working for Dumbledore.

Eric: Ohh.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: This would have been the perfect letter for him to send. We see coded messages going out earlier on in this chapter, the note that Harry sends to Sirius, and this would be exactly the kind of letter that Percy would be expected to send to Ron. He would be showing the fact that he’s doing such a great job. I know it’s not the case, and he’s not a double agent, but I like to think that that would have been a nice twist.

Eric: I like that a lot, actually, yeah.

Micah: Because he plays the part so well.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But guys, he sent this in the middle of night because he’s very busy during the workday, working with Fudge.

Eric: Oh, he’s so busy! You’re right.

Andrew: He has no time, so he finally found some time at the end of the day.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: You know what? I think Percy is the Dwight Schrute of this universe.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: You know, Dwight, he’s the Assistant to the Regional Manager, but he calls himself Assistant Regional Manager. That is very much Percy’s energy.

Andrew: He’ll do whatever Michael Scott wants him to do, or Fudge wants him to do.

Laura: Very self-important.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. And speaking of self-important, there’s just a formality that does not need to exist with this letter. He refers to Harry as “Harry Potter.” There’s not another Harry. First of all, we don’t hear about another Harry at Hogwarts the entire seven years that Harry is here. There’s certainly a Harry that is going to be the Harry that Percy is talking about, so why say “Harry Potter”? It creates distance. It creates a level of… again, it’s that upturned nose, or… “Remember your best friend, Harry Potter, that smelly person who is discredited?” It just is tasteless and really misses, I think.

Andrew: Tasteless, yeah. Too formal, and again, out of touch. He just does not realize the relationship that Ron has with Harry, seemingly.

Eric: Yeah, and to assume that Ron would care more about the prefect badge – that he didn’t even ask for or want – than about being Harry’s friend or associating with Harry. I mean, that’s the thing, is Percy assumes that Ron cares at all that he’s been prefect. [laughs] And for the points you brought up, Andrew, his reason not to… he doesn’t enjoy wielding authority. He doesn’t enjoy the fact that he’s in this position. So even the fact that Percy would use this as a leaping point to say all these horrible things about what Ron does have and like, his friend in Harry, is a complete misread of the situation.

Micah: Well, what it also says to me, though, is that Percy has never really had a close friend.

Andrew and Laura: Yep.

Eric: Someone who would cheer you on.

Micah: Maybe outside of Penelope. It’s clear, the way that he’s anticipating or expecting Ron to treat Harry based on this letter. They’ve been best buds for four years.

Eric: It’s sad, really, to think that… I mean, because what happens that they find Errol – or is it Hermes? – outside the window, and Harry is shown the letter by Ron after he reads it, because Harry cares. Harry wants to know that Ron… not because he’s nosy, but because he wants to support his friend. So it’s like, “Oh, your brother wrote you? Wow. How’s your brother doing?” That’s what people who support each other would ask; they would naturally be inclined. But anyway, there are some plot developments hinted at in this letter, including… Percy says, “I feel bound to tell you that Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer, and the people who count have a very different – and probably more accurate – view of Potter’s behavior,” and “See the Daily Prophet tomorrow for a good way the wind is blowing.” If everything Percy has said up to this point has rubbed Ron the wrong way, giving him… confiding in him that something horrible is going to happen to Dumbledore, and that there are machinations at work to remove him from the school, is going to absolutely seal the deal, right? Like, “Eugh, he’s confiding in me that there’s this plot to remove Dumbledore.” He just doesn’t understand him at all. Anyway, just wrapping up, too; he calls uh Dolores Umbridge a “delightful woman.” Barf.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Can you three imagine any scenario in which Umbridge is genuinely a delightful woman? I mean, whether you work with her at the Ministry or not, I have a hard time picturing her being delightful. Maybe inauthentically delightful, like Harry gets some tastes of. But does Percy not detect any inauthenticity with her?

Laura: I mean, honestly, I think Percy matches it. I think at this point, Percy is inauthentic as hell, so his bar for what constitutes being a lovely person is in hell.

Micah: Think he’s got a crush?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I hope not.

Eric: I think he has ambition.

Andrew: Well, he might aspire to be… yeah, aspire to be like Umbridge one day.

Micah: Crush for power. How about that?

Eric: Yeah.

Laura: There we go.

Micah: Well, and the more that I think about this letter, the more that I can see Percy maybe even going to somebody like Fudge and saying, “Look, my brother is best friends with Harry Potter. I can get you some real inside intel.” That would be, in my mind, more likely than him being a double agent. [laughs] I can see that being his motivation for sending this type of a letter. I wouldn’t be surprised if this letter was even looked over by Fudge before it was sent out.

Andrew: And speaking of Percy feeling isolated by doing that, Micah, then he feels more important at the Ministry and he’s going to get the attention that he so desires.

Micah: Sure.

Eric: Oh, that’s so true. And he also talks down on the rest of the family for following Dumbledore. So any chance that Percy had of having a relationship with Ron is pretty well…

Andrew: It’s been Evanesco‘d, you could say.

Eric: Yeah, put that crap where it belongs on poop mountain.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, speaking of family drama like this, we’re going to take a break, and then when we come back, we’re going to try to make the real life connection with this scenario, so we’ll be right back.

Eric: Love it.

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, so something that we’re trying to do with this new Chapter by Chapter series is make real life connections to the books, because as we read these books at different ages of our lives, we can connect to these books in different ways. So inspired by Percy telling Ron to sever ties with Harry, I was wondering if any of us have ever experienced family drama like this, where family members might be severing ties. Maybe we’re not talking to family members anymore. I actually have one somewhat relatable to this particular scenario. My dad and his brother, meaning my uncle, got into a fight with somebody else in the family – I won’t name names; not my immediate family, of course – nine years ago! And somebody in the family is still so salty about this situation that my dad and his brother are not talking, and it’s stupid and the clock’s ticking. They’re not going to live forever; they’d better patch things up. But this type of thing happens, and Percy at least makes amends by the end of the series with the rest of his family. But yeah, I just… when I read this, I was thinking about that, where my dad and his brother aren’t talking even nine years later after an incident.

Eric: And they’re good friends? They get along.

Andrew: Right. Oh, they used to be great friends, on the phone all the time with each other…

Eric: Yeah, that is such a loss.

Andrew: Yeah, it is!

Laura: You know what, though, Andrew? Let them.

Andrew: [laughs] No! Too much Mel Robbins this week. No.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Oh, I’m letting them. I’m sitting back. I’m like, “Really? You two aren’t talking anymore? You should probably try to fix that.”

Micah: Andrew, tell them to high five each other in the mirror.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Any big enough family drama and falling-outs like this really make you question what is important, and it’s almost like remaining angry or being angry is more important than showing that you care, essentially. Saying the mean things and showing the mean things are being prioritized over showing the soft and nice things, and so there’s… what family does not have drama?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I’ve got definitely extended family that I’m thinking of that have made these choices to not talk or to not even have a relationship with their children, their grandchildren, as a result of chosen lifestyles, and it’s just a shame for the years of support and love that they could be sharing with one another, and instead, they’re making the situation worse the longer it goes, the greater the pain becomes.

Micah: Yeah, and I would say – and I’m sure we’re going to talk about this a little bit in the next section – but politics do play a major role, I think, for a lot of families and severing ties with members of immediate family or extended family because of candidates that they may support. And I think it’s unfortunate, but I think it’s just the time we live in currently, and it’s hard to think back that this would have been as divisive 20, 30, 40 years ago, but I think we’re just in a time now where everything is so volatile and it’s easier than ever to hear what people are saying. I think that’s part of the problem, honestly – without jumping into too much detail – is just there’s so much noise.

Eric: Well, I do think that what Percy is saying could be political, in the sense that even though Dumbledore never ran for Minister, it is the Dumbledore camp or the Fudge camp, and his family is all in the Dumbledore camp, and Percy is the only one in the Fudge camp. So if you think of it politically, there’s also that argument to be made, I think.

Micah: Sure.

Andrew: Yeah. One of our listeners is contributing to this discussion; Michelle said, “I didn’t talk to my aunt and uncle for at least 20 years because my mother hated them. Luckily, I reconnected about a year before my uncle died. I am so glad that I did.” Yeah, that is really nice.

Laura: Oh, I’m so glad for that.

Andrew: And it’s interesting reading family drama in these books, because I think maybe when I was reading this for my first time when I was a kid, 14/15 years old, the family drama may have felt as fictional to me as magic did in this series.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: “Family drama like this? Brothers fighting? I can’t imagine that.” But now, reading this today, it’s all too common and real.

Eric: That is actually a good point, that the flavoring of Percy falling out with the family was, at a young age, not something I related to. That was as unreal as the fantasy elements.

Andrew: Yeah, because your family, your mom and dad, might have kept the drama away from you.

Eric: That too.

Andrew: I’m sure there was drama in their lives, but you didn’t really see it as much. At least, I didn’t.

Eric: Yeah, I like that. I like this question a lot.

Laura: Yeah. No, I think that’s just a very natural part of growing up – to your point, Andrew – and I think in general, it is more common, I think, nowadays to hear about kids doing this with their parents. So maybe that is an added layer that we can look at this present state of Percy in, because I feel like as a kid when I was reading this, I would have never been able to imagine, like, “Why would someone stop talking to their parents because they disagree with them on this thing?”, right? Liking Dumbledore or not. I just couldn’t… it didn’t make sense to me. But you definitely see, especially now that it is more common, people do that for all sorts of reasons.

Eric: We do have one happy moment in this chapter before we wrap, a chapter that began at the owlery and ends with a visit from Sirius Black in the fireplace – to Andrew’s mention – and it’s a bit of an info dump. It’s, of course, good to see him, but we hear that Dolores Umbridge is apparently no Death Eater. And of course, the wonderful quote, “The world isn’t divided into good people and Death Eaters.” What we learn about Umbridge from Sirius Black is that she did, however, pass anti-werewolf legislation that made it next to impossible for folks like Remus Lupin, who we love, to get a job, and when you prevent people from having legitimate careers and tell them that they don’t belong in society, you create a problem that I think is very familiar to all of us and for the rest of us, and so it’s pretty clear to me now what type of person Umbridge is. Harry doesn’t have the maturity because he’s young or the language yet to understand what Umbridge really is or represents, and that’s one of the merits of this book, is introducing us to another type of villain. It’s the Ministry official who does not do enough to prevent the world from sinking into evil. It’s that saying about “All that’s necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.” If Umbridge is good, that’s debatable. She is no Death Eater, apparently, but she’s allowing this to happen. She’s enabling this to happen. She’s cruel. She embodies cruelty. What she’s doing to Harry in detentions is completely illegal and awful, but she justifies it, and so I think now we have a full picture. Thanks, Uncle Sirius, for exactly how awful Umbridge really is.

Micah: I think you said it best, Eric, in that she’s a different kind of evil. You don’t have to be a Death Eater; you don’t have to be a Dark Lord. There’s other types of individuals out there that do really bad things, and she does it under the cover of this insidious sweetness that she has. Maybe that’s what appeals to Percy on some level.

Eric: “I like all the pink she wears,” says Percy.

Andrew: [laughs] I want to see him dressing up in Umbridge pink. I would like that.

Eric: It would clash horribly with his orange hair.

Micah: This book in particular, as we move through it… there were a lot of real world comparisons back when we last did it; there are quite a few now. I’d almost want to do an episode… maybe we have to put it behind the paywall, because I’m sure there are things that we would say that may not sit well with all of our audience, but there’s a lot here.

Andrew: Get us some fresh one star reviews, yeah.

Eric: Also, our big friend is fine.

Micah: Good.

Eric: Sirius says Hagrid is probably fine.

Andrew: Oh, I thought you meant Snorlax.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Snorlax also is fine. But yeah, he tells Harry that Dumbledore is not worried, which is nice. And don’t you just hate to have somebody you love, like a family member or even a good friend, ask to hang out, but you’re like, “We probably shouldn’t do that right now,” telling them no?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Unfortunately, it ends kind of on a down note because Sirius suggests that they hang out during the next Hogsmeade weekend, and the part we didn’t mention is that the Daily Prophet now caught on that Sirius is in London, and even though Sirius downplays it, it’s a very real concern, and so the trio all agree that they should not meet up with Sirius. And then Sirius definitely doesn’t have an adverse reaction, say something that he shouldn’t say, that furthers what everyone else has been saying about him all along, namely Molly.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So that doesn’t happen, but the chapter does end.

Andrew: And the information that the Ministry has may have been relayed by Lucius, and we were wondering earlier in this book if Lucius did tell Draco about Sirius, because Draco makes that “dogging” comment. But I wanted to look at, Eric, what you’re talking about, a comment Sirius makes that isn’t too great here. Sirius says to Harry, after Sirius asks about the Hogsmeade weekend and Harry says no – and Hermione does too – Sirius says to Harry that he is not as much like James as he thought. And it’s rough, but I do think this validates Mrs. Weasley’s concerns from earlier in the book, that Sirius treats Harry too much like James.

Eric: I think that Sirius has had a rough week and he’s interested in seeing his godson, and…

Andrew: All right, Sirius Black423.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: That’s what… I’m going to defend him 423 times, it feels like.

Andrew: Eric is the Sirius apologist; I’m the Dumbledore apologist.

Eric: This does not validate Molly’s inappropriate comment, but it does show that Molly’s comment is not completely…

Micah: Baseless.

Eric: … without merit.

Micah: Yeah, I agree. Sirius is being a bit reckless here, which he’s been known to do. And he’s – to your point, Andrew – been cooped up with Kreacher all week. Or Eric, you said that he had… who said he had a bad week? I can’t even remember.

Andrew: Eric.

Eric: Oh, I said he’d had a bad week, but I wasn’t even thinking about Kreacher, yeah.

Micah: It’s tough. I mean, you can tell Sirius wants out of the house, that that’s what it comes down to, and he’s looking for a point of connection. But this just… his departure, too, is so rude. He just snaps out of there, and he’s like, “See you later.”

Andrew: Doesn’t he say because he hears Kreacher coming down the stairs or something like that? That’s the excuse.

Micah: Yeah, but Harry said that he doesn’t believe him.

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] I missed that part.

Eric: Yeah, that’s cheap.

Andrew: Does Grimmauld Place have a backyard? Can Sirius not go into the backyard and get a little tan action going on on a rare sunny day in London?

Micah: I don’t know.

Laura: Well, he wants that personal connection, like Micah was saying, and I think it’s an interesting connection to make between Percy and Padfoot in this chapter, because both of them, I think we’ve established, are desperate for some kind of connection and feel isolated.

Eric: And hurt their family. That’s amazing, and they end up… both of them end up hurting their family by a communication that they issue.


Odds & Ends


Eric: Let’s get to odds and ends!

Micah: Sure, just a couple odds and ends. Thought it was important to mention that Harry sees Thestrals for the second time when he’s looking out of the owlery; they pop up in the forest. And it’s a bit connecting the threads, too, because this is now the second book, if you tie it to Prisoner of Azkaban, where you have these creepy black-winged creatures that represent death, or have some sort of connection to death, if you want to connect them to the Dementors. But thought that was interesting. And then…

Eric: And they’re not limited to traveling on the ground, yeah.

Micah: They both fly, yeah. Fred and George, all right? We talked about them last week, testing these products on kids.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I know it wasn’t intentional, but they gave Katie something that made her almost bleed out during Quidditch practice.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Oops!

Andrew: These products are deadly.

Laura: So this is actually the proof of how dangerous these are, even if the intentions are only pure.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: Hold on, I’m switching to my security consultant hat. This is disgusting.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We need my literal security consultant hat. This is disgusting.

Eric: Please help us.

Andrew: Hogwarts is a security nightmare, and I will be wearing this hat next week for the next chapter, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor,” because… well, call me Percy, I guess, next week if I’m siding with Umbridge during this chapter. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, man. We’ll look forward to that.

Laura: [laughs] Percy Sims.

Micah: Poor Katie.

Andrew: I know!

Micah: I mean, between this book and the next one? Can’t catch a break.


Superlative of the Week


Eric: And now we have our MVP segment redone to be what could Ron have said instead of just tearing up the letter? He reads it, he scoffs, he’s disgusted, he lets Harry see it, then he takes it and rips it up. What would be the best line that Ron should have used? Out loud.

Andrew: [gruffly] “Dry up, Percy, you great prune.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Need some water?

Andrew: That’s my best Hagrid.

Eric: Oh, I miss Hagrid now. How about just a good “Shut up, Weatherby.”

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be good.

Laura: That’s a good one.

Andrew: That would hit him where it hurts.

Eric: Fudge doesn’t even know your name.

Micah: I think a simple “I must not tell lies.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There’s that.

Laura: And I’m going to borrow a favorite from those of us in the 21st century with cell phones: “New quill, who dis?”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I like that.

Eric: Oh, I love it.


Lynx Line


Eric: All right, and let’s hear from our Lynx Line now. This, of course, is our newest benefit on Patreon. Thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and thanks to everyone who answered this question. We had a little bit of fun with this, and we asked… here’s the prompt for the Lynx Line this week: Write a letter to Snuffles telling him about your favorite movie, but be careful – Umbridge is reading your letter, and you don’t want her to experience the joy of seeing a very good movie.

Andrew: What a fun twist.

Eric: So describe it in code, right, yeah. Describe it in code, which may inadvertently make the movie sound bad – that’s fine – and tell us at the end what the movie is. So this was a fun way of thinking about writing in code, as Harry does. And how would you do these sorts of things?

Andrew: Cassandra wrote in,

“Oy, Snuffles! Want to drown out your mum’s voice? Watch these American teenager movies where all the Muggle kids sing and dance and learn to love their true selves. Even the Slytherin types improve! You’ll laugh at the game they play that’s like Quidditch without brooms. Keep the faith, bro, we’re all in this together. Harry.”

So this would be High School Musical, for anybody who doesn’t know.

Eric: I love that. From Danielle,

“I just had my annual rewatch of my favorite movie, and I’m not sure I’ve ever recommended it to you. It’s about a crew of coworkers that sell music on the daily, but on this one special day, all heck breaks loose. A washed-up celebrity is in their midst, all while one of their own gambles away their fortunes, shots are fired, love is declared, and they must save their establishment by midnight. I think you would get a kick out of the soundtrack too. Rock on, Harry.”

That’s Empire Records. I think Sirius would love that movie.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a great movie. Jen OG says,

“Ahoy, Snuffles. Hope life is treating you well. Thought you might like to hear about this awesome movie I watched last night. It was about this old dude who had a crazy idea to use science (it’s a Muggle thing that’s a bit like magic) to make himself a fortune playing on people’s love of dangerous things. He built a never-seen-before amusement park. Unfortunately, his plans went awry, and his park became overrun with mystical creatures who weren’t best pleased with the modern times they found themselves in. Give my love to Bucky. Love, Harry.”

Eric: Bucky.

Micah: And Jen, of course, is referring to Jurassic Park.

Laura: I love that.

Andrew: Umbridge would hate this one. Mystical creatures who weren’t pleased with modern times?

Eric: Oh, God. Half-breeds. Clones!

Micah: I mean, especially what happens to her at the end of this book. [laughs]

Andrew: Exactly, yeah.

Laura: That’s one of my top favorite movies of all time.

Andrew: This next one is from Rachel.

“Dear Snuffles, if you’re looking for a movie rec, I have to share one of my favorites. It won an award. An awesome warrior gets stripped of his title and enters competitions to fight to the death for sport. If you watch it, were you not entertained?”

This is Gladiator.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, man. This comes from John.

“Dear Snuffles, I watched one of my favorite movies last night. It’s about a guy trying to crawl through a pipe of poop. He doesn’t get to poop mountain, but he does get free. I think you can relate to this one based on experience. Also, there’s a woman in a fur bikini.”

That’s Shawshank Redemption.

Laura: [laughs] Oh, that’s so funny.

Micah: Eleanor writes,

“Dear Snuffles, you really must find time to watch my favorite movie. It’ll give you a whole new appreciation for Severus Snape, and I think you’ll enjoy seeing him as an out and out villain. He even cancels Christmas! It’s great fun, and the good guys went in the end. Love, Harry.”

And this is Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

Andrew: Finally, Carly wrote in with,

“Dear Snuffles, just rewatched a favorite movie of mine. It’s about a band of misfit kids battling against a legendary monster for the return of a rare and priceless heirloom. It had originally been lost because the newest member of the group didn’t realize its true worth. Luckily in the end, a wise, blind collector of objects endows the misfits with a similar heirloom of greater value. Hope you’re well, Harry.”

And this was The Sandlot. [laughs]

Micah: I thought maybe they were going to say Darth Vader endows the misfits.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: So these are always a lot of fun to do, and it reminded me of…

Micah: Can I just shout-out our patrons?

Eric: They’re incredible!

Micah: These are really good.

Andrew: They’re always so creative. Well done.

Laura: Y’all knocked it out of the park. These were so fun.

Eric: But don’t forget, you can participate in Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron of ours at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.

Andrew: And if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that is recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We love getting all of your feedback, so thank you, everybody, so much. And next week we will discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” It’s time to get down to business.

Eric: How high is she?

Andrew: [laughs] Not that type of high, but she’s high up in the ranks.

Laura: No, she’s not invited, and she does not seem like she would be fun enough for that.

Andrew: [laughs] Laura would not pass it to her. Let’s just leave it there.

Laura: Nope.

Micah: I don’t want to be interrogated. I think I might skip next week.

Andrew: Ohh. Well, that’s all right; we might have somebody to replace you.

[Micah laughs]


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: What English children’s book author started out as a biological illustrator, a subject matter which certainly influenced the animal characters of their books? This was a good history question, and the correct answer is Helen Beatrix Heelis, a.k.a. Beatrix Potter. So for those complaining Quizzitch hasn’t been Potter-related, there you go. 64% of people said they didn’t have to look it up; they knew that about Beatrix Potter. And the correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Buff Daddy; Elizabeth K.; Forky Asks the Quizzitch Question; Hero with 1,000 Fandoms; Patronus Seeker; Ravenpuff; Snitch Baker; STARTINGTOSOUNDLIKEASECURITYNIGHTMARE…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … The Bowtruckle that gouged out Moody’s eye…

Micah: Ooh.

Eric: … VP-gurl-224-712; and “Where in the world did the Dumbledore apologist go, Andrew?”

Micah: He’s back.

Andrew: Hey, I’m still… look, I try, but these three are wearing me down. I’m starting to see what they’re saying.

Eric: [laughs] Yes! Victory!

Andrew: I don’t know about victory. But look, I’m still trying to put up the good fight.

Eric: Okay, you do that. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: This relates to Ron’s – well, all of their – homework assignment. First discovered in the year 1610, the four largest moons of the planet Jupiter are called Io, Europa, Ganymede, and what? What is the other moon of the largest moons of the planet Jupiter? Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website. Go to our website, MuggleCast.com, and click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav, or use the URL – that’s a thing you type in the bar – www.MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: If you want to get ready for next week’s chapter in which Umbridge is going to get down to business, maybe visit MuggleCastMerch.com and pick up a security consultant hat or a security nightmare T-shirt. I know I will be wearing mine for next week’s episode. It’s a great way to support the show. Also, if you miss us in between new episodes of MuggleCast, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Laura, Pam, and I are reviewing the new book – the most popular adult novel in 20 years – Onyx Storm. And then over on Millennial, we are discussing the latest political news, the threat of tariffs – I know, very fun Harry Potter-related topics – and our favorite self-help books, if you didn’t catch that self-help book reference earlier.

Micah: Let them.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Right. Listener support is the only way we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years, and there are several other great ways to help us out. Apple Podcasts subscribers can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and earlier releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And for even more benefits, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams; we’ve got at least a dozen people listening live tonight, probably a couple dozen. We appreciate everybody tuning in and sounding off in the chat. You also get Lynx Line participation, physical gifts, and a personal video message from one of the four of us. So thanks, everybody who supports us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and please leave a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, links to everything we’ve plugged today, everything. And that does it for this week’s episode. I am, always, your Dumbledore apologist, Andrew.

Eric: I am, and will forevermore be, SiriusBlack 423@AIM.com.

Andrew: [laughs] His apologist.

Micah: I’m Micah, your southern Hagrid apologist.

Laura: I’m Laura, and I apologize for no one.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Transcript #691

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #691, I Declare Loyalty! (OOTP Chapter 13, Detention with Dolores)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week we are speaking the whole truth and nothing but the truth, because we are talking about Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Detention with Dolores.” And helping us with our discussion this week is MuggleCast listener and Quizzitch winner, James! Welcome, James, to the show.

James: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Andrew: Well, and congratulations on first place in our most recent Quizzitch Live. You were telling me you joined in on the trivia night very last minute?

James: Absolutely. Yeah, so this was a Sunday, and I’m in law school. It was the day before my civil procedure final, so I was planning to get up, go on my phone for 20 minutes, and then pull an Ernie Macmillan; study for nine hours.

[Andrew laughs]

James: So I happened to see that Quizzitch Live was just starting; I said, “I’ll do this first and then go do the study for nine hours,” and so I just came in and hit a hot streak, and it ended up going well.

Eric: Amazing.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for participating. And I was really excited to have a Quizzitch Live winner on the show, because you must really know your stuff if you’re winning Quizzitch.

Eric: That’s hard! Like we say often, we could not do it. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. So let’s get your fandom ID, speaking of knowing your stuff.

James: Absolutely. So my favorite book is Order of the Phoenix, so I’m very happy to be on today for this book.

Andrew: Yes!

Eric: Aww.

James: My favorite movie is Half-Blood Prince. My Hogwarts House is Hufflepuff. My Patronus is a wild boar.

Eric and Laura: Oooh.

James: And my least favorite character of the series is actually a tie, because it’s both of the Carrows.

[Everyone laughs]

James: I think they’re terrible. They’re really just awful, but they’re also just incompetent and really bad at everything. They’re the worst. I don’t like them at all.

Eric: That’s a good one. We don’t get enough hate for the Carrows.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, thanks, James, for joining us this week, and congrats again on winning Quizzitch. So listeners, speaking of things to wear, we are in the colder season right now, so be sure to check out the MuggleCast Cozy Comfy Combo Pack to stay warm this winter. And we’re offering this combo pack at its lowest price yet, just $20 for the beanie and socks together. Only a few of these remain, so act fast. And you can visit that overstock store by going to MuggleMillennial.etsy.com; we’ll have a link in the show notes as well. And while you’re there, check out other MuggleCast merch, like signed album art, 15th anniversary T-shirts, the Sweet 16 wooden car kit, or you can just purchase the socks. Our overstock store is just one way to support us. If you enjoy what we do, we would also love your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Becoming a member is the best way to support us and will get you instant access to lots of great benefits, including bonus MuggleCast, and Eric, you’ve got one prepared for us today, right?

Eric: That is absolutely correct, and in fact, we have our listeners to thank because during our mailbag episode, one of the messages we read from Iris had a little suggestion at the end of it for what to do for a bonus, and who are we to say no? We have no plethora of great ideas to do instead. So we will be Sorting the Weasleys into different Houses other than Gryffindor, and maybe some other characters if we have time as well. But you’ve heard it before, that maybe they get Sorted too soon. This time, we’re Sorting them as they are now.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “We Sort too soon. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. We Sort too soon.”

Eric: Thank you, Dumbledore.

Laura: Well, does…? I mean, that means that we’re Sorting at least one person who’s dead, if we’re Sorting them based on who they are now.

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: Maybe just the moment before death.

Laura: Ahh, okay.

Eric: Maybe right before death’s hand came and got him.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Can you imagine? Surprise, you’re actually supposed to be in Slytherin. Doesn’t matter, though.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, thanks to everybody who supports us on Patreon, and we really hope you can check out the membership and hope to see you there.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: So now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re talking about Order of the Phoenix Chapter unlucky 13, “Detention with Dolores.”

Eric: We last spoke about this on January 14, 2020 on Episode 449, which we named “Torturous Toad.”

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 449.

Andrew: Also, I will just say I think she has the worst name out of any Harry Potter character in the series. “Grubbly-Plank.”

Laura: It just makes me think of a moldy piece of wood.

Andrew: I just think of a pirate walking on a plank.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Eric: Now, there was substantive discussion about Dolores Umbridge on that episode.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, believe me. We didn’t overlook Umbridge.

Micah: That was so much better than what I was expecting.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, same. I was like, “Whoa, did we really go that hard on Umbridge’s name? It’s not a great name, I don’t think.” But then… yeah, it was great.

Eric: No, we were also very hard on Grubbly-Plank. Andrew, it’s been five years. Does she still have the worst name, do you think? Grubbly-Plank?

Andrew: That was harsh. I don’t know.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That was January 2020; it was a whole different world. I think I’ve evolved in that time.

Eric: It was a different… [laughs]

Andrew: But I have to say, I’m looking at the runtime of the clip we just played, and it says it’s 2 minutes 40 seconds, the version I have. I mean, obviously it ended where it did, but I was sitting here scraping my dinner plate, being like, “Oh, I got time.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, no, it was the shortest one yet! It’s 35 seconds. You know what must have happened? So if you were to take that clip and go all the way to the end, it’s the AI doing the numbers.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: The ones that I cut and paste into the episode. [laughs]

Andrew: Got it. That’s funny.

Eric: I can’t believe it.

Andrew: That’s really funny.

Eric: Oh, my project file. Anyway. Lots of fun.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Chapter 13, like I mentioned. Is it just a coincidence that this terrible chapter is Chapter 13?

Micah: No.

Eric: Yes.

James and Laura: No.

Eric: I’m going to be the one to say yes.

Laura: Micah, you brought up something really interesting related to this.

Micah: So I thought it would be fun to take a look at the other Chapter Thirteens in the Harry Potter series, and so I went through the other six books and pulled the chapter titles. Andrew, thank you for going back and doing a little bit of summaries of each of these chapters. So in Sorcerer’s Stone, Chapter 13 is “Nicolas Flamel,” and what happens in that chapter, Andrew?

Andrew: Harry has nightmares about his parents dying, so I would call that an unlucky chapter.

Micah: Fair enough. In Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 13 is “The Very Secret Diary.”

Andrew: They find the diary, the Horcrux, so that’s lucky.

Micah: Is it? In the context of the story?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, they come face to face with the real villain of the book. Could be unlucky.

Andrew: This is open to interpretation. We can…

[James and Laura laugh]

Micah: Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13 was “Gryffindor Vs. Ravenclaw.”

Andrew: And Harry wins the Quidditch game against Ravenclaw, and he fires his Patronus at fake Dementors that are played by Slytherins, so I put that in the lucky column.

Micah: Chapter 13 of Goblet of Fire was “Mad-Eye Moody,” so starting to compare DADA professors here a little bit.

Andrew: Yeah, and Rita Skeeter writes a bad article about Arthur, and Mad-Eye turns Draco into a ferret, so I just kind of found this one to be a wash. It wasn’t necessarily lucky or unlucky for Harry.

Micah: Half-Blood Prince Chapter 13, “The Secret Riddle,” so a tie to Chamber of Secrets, perhaps.

Andrew: Isn’t that crazy? That’s a crazy coincidence, if it is a coincidence. But yeah, Dumbledore takes Harry into the memory in which he invites Tom to learn at Hogwarts. I wrote lucky for this one, but now I don’t remember why. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, it’s interesting.

Micah: Because he’s learning something? And then finally in Deathly Hallows, Chapter 13 was “The Muggle-Born Registration Commission.” We know who is a major proponent of that.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: Umbridge plays a big role in this chapter, just like she does in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13. That’s crazy.

Eric: That is pretty interesting.

Micah: So that was fun.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, no, it’s really cool to go back and pick out those themes. I don’t know if I would classify all of those things as being lucky or unlucky, but I do feel like the common theme for Chapter 13 in each of these books is that there’s some kind of turning point that happens in Chapter 13, and I think we can definitely see that in this chapter for a number of reasons, first of which is that we’re getting to witness Hermione continuing to get radicalized. This was something that we brought up last chapter, but after Harry’s shouting match at Umbridge gets around the school in this chapter – this chapter pretty much picks up where we left off – Harry is continuing to not have a good time at school. People are whispering about him, there are all kinds of assertions about how he must be a nutter and Dumbledore is just basically asleep at the wheel, and it kind of feels like the entire student body is doubling down on the narrative that the Daily Prophet has shoved down everyone’s throats all summer. And it’s now that Hermione actually observes a really good point, a truth, something that Harry hadn’t yet considered himself, which is that the prior year, at the end of the third task, all anyone saw was Harry come back clutching Cedric’s dead body, and they didn’t get very much time to absorb the shock and the horror of that news before they had to go home and be fed disinformation by their government and their primary media source all summer. So it’s actually not that shocking, I don’t think, that people would feel this way.

Eric: No, we live in an era – and this is true even more now than it was five years ago – where the media goes really hard on certain things, and you can actually forget or see slip away things that are based on your personal observations. So however you felt in that moment when Dumbledore said to the school that this happened – maybe you even believed him – if you go home and subsist on a diet of the Daily Prophet for two months straight, it’s crazy, but you’re going to start to think and act and see and be more susceptible to the repeated messages that are completely false, but which are repeated to you from a corrupt or crazy media.

Micah: The repetition piece of it, I think, is really important. And let’s not forget Harry’s track record here, too. The Daily Prophet has doubled and tripled down, so it’s not surprising people believe what’s being printed. Harry doesn’t have the best track record here, Dumbledore doesn’t have the best track record here, so the fact that the Prophet is spinning these to the Ministry’s liking and that people are believing it, I don’t really think it’s that far of a stretch.

James and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Totally. I mean, to that point, I wanted to ask all of us, have we ever gotten caught up in the news cycle and believed something that later turned out to be false, or maybe we made some assumptions about something with very little information when there wasn’t a ton of information available?

Andrew: Yeah, because I think sometimes it’s easier just to read the headline that you see on social media and scroll along and just assume that it’s true. And even media sources that we trust, we can read a headline from them and not be getting the whole story, so a lack of the full picture abounds. And I’m of the belief that if you hear anything enough times, you might start believing it. I once heard an interview – sometime in the past year, I think – with someone whose job it is to constantly watch a certain news network, and they were asked in this interview, “Because of all this time you spend watching this certain news network, have you found yourself starting to drink the Kool-Aid, starting to fall for it, starting to believe everything they say?” And this person said, “Yeah, because I mean, you’re in it all day, every day, so you just naturally become convinced of what they are saying. It’s warping your mind.”

Laura: Totally.

Eric: All of these kids who think that Dumbledore is a nutter, they’re just trying to keep a good wizard down for just keeping his head down, doing the quiet work behind the scenes at Hogwarts, and they are susceptible to believe that he’s incompetent and can’t do it anymore. Amazing.

James: Part of the problem is the information environment, right? It’s not like there are people out on both sides of this and they’re talking to each other and exchanging information, having conversations about what they think. You’ve got the Prophet that is sticking completely to this very hard line that “Dumbledore is wrong. This side is crazy.” And on the other side, you’ve got the Order, and they’re not going to say that in public because anyone who believes that is ostracized. They can’t get a job; they’re shunned. So there’s not really a way, until later in the book when we see Harry making personal connections with people and them starting to believe him… we’re not going to get there with just these two sides completely separate, no one crossing over to try to make the other side see reason in a productive way.

Eric: It’s a great point.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Absolutely. But what’s so funny about this is Hermione, while she is simultaneously able to see the bigger picture of what Umbridge and the Ministry have in store for education and for the wizarding world at large, at her core, she’s still really ticked off about Umbridge being allowed to teach them, especially in their OWLs year when they’re taking their Ordinary Wizarding Level exam. She has this moment where she pounds the armchair that she’s in and she’s like, “How could Dumbledore let this happen?” And… same, girl.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I think we all ask ourselves that question at least once a chapter, so… relatable. It was a very meta moment. But I will say, to be fair, though, fifth years have always been subject to this kind of thing at Hogwarts, just with the high turnover rate of the Defense Against the Dark Arts position anyway, in addition to the sometimes trend of those professors using the position to help Voldemort, so no fifth year has had a good experience at Hogwarts in quite some time when it comes to this subject matter.

Andrew: At this current part of the book, Hermione doesn’t understand, I guess, that Dumbledore’s hands are tied here, but Dumbledore’s hands are tied here. It wasn’t up to him. You can’t blame Dumbledore here.

Eric: Yeah, right.

Andrew: For once.

Eric: [laughs] No, we don’t know exactly what the pressure is, or exactly… we find out in this book where the red tape is and what the strings are between the Ministry, the Board of Governors, the school, but we know enough about it to probably figure that, yeah, Dumbledore can’t really have made any decision. I mean, it’s interesting to me that the kids don’t pick up on it right away; they start speculating again about the role being cursed, and that there just must be a shortage of people wanting it. While I’m sure that’s true, the Ministry was always going to plant somebody here this year, and so whether it was to fill in for Hagrid or otherwise, this was always going to be Umbridge’s year.

James: I think Hermione’s reaction is interesting, because I feel like in past years she might have been a little more torn, right? Because Umbridge’s whole thing is “We are going to get you through the test. We’re going to get you these good grades. This is what we’re doing; it’s all about the tests.” And Hermione in past years might have sort of been about that. I think what’s changed is that Voldemort is back now; she’s suddenly like, “Okay, real world stuff. The test is about more than that.”

Eric: Puts it into perspective.

Andrew: Yeah, no time to waste.

Laura: Right, exactly. Yeah, we do get to see Hermione in this book make academic achievement a secondary goal, and granted, she still achieves it, but it’s very clear that she’s getting her priorities in order in this book, which is funny because I think Ron specifically says she needs to do that in Book 1. So it took her a few years, but she got there. But I think you’re right, James, and I think also up until this point, I think Hermione is a character who just had built-in respect for teachers as authority figures. Even if she didn’t like them, even if she didn’t think they’re the best teachers, they’re not very nice, she still approaches the classroom environment with a lot of respect, and I think maybe this is the first time that she’s experienced a teacher who has taken a stance of deliberately saying, “I’m actually not going to teach you anything,” and she’s like, “Okay, I can’t do this anymore.”

Micah: In some ways, though, I feel like it’s been a bit of a slow burn for Hermione, because we do see her in Prisoner of Azkaban really start to, especially with Trelawney, not necessarily think that all teachers are well-equipped in their professions. And not as much maybe necessarily in Goblet of Fire, but certainly in this book with Umbridge, and then we’ll get to it later on but initially she does not have many good things to say about Firenze, and we know that’s in the same class of Divination when he takes over for Trelawney. But yeah, she’s certainly starting to turn the corner a bit, and she recognizes Umbridge for what she is in this particular case, and it’s a plant by the Ministry. Now, in terms of the position being cursed, I wanted to ask – and we may have discussed this in the past – but I wondered, should this have been an indication to the larger wizarding community that Voldemort is alive? Because if he wasn’t, the curse would have been broken. Now, I don’t know how widely publicized it is that Tom Riddle cursed the DADA position. It probably is only something Dumbledore really knows, but…

Andrew: Might not be something he wants to broadcast.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: “Come to Hogwarts! If you accept this position, you will die.”

Andrew: “Just coincidentally, there’s all this turnover in this role, but we’re going to figure it out, y’all. Don’t you worry about it.”

Eric: No, I think Dumbledore does revel in the speculation about the job being cursed. It’s kind of fun to think about a jinx.

Micah: You’d think he enjoys it.

Eric: I’m sure he doesn’t enjoy having to do all that paperwork and all those interviews every year, but at the same time, I do get that…

Micah: You think he interviews?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s generous, am I right?

Eric: Even if it’s just above the Hog’s Head, and the teacher faints in front of him and he hires them anyway. Looking at you, Trelawney.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But yeah, anyway, I do get the sense that when Dumbledore tells Harry about the curse and tells him that Tom Riddle came back to Hogwarts to apply for a job, that it’s something that he enjoys telling Harry but has told pretty much no one else.

Micah: Nobody.

Laura: Yeah. What I like about this point, Micah – and I don’t think that we ever get anything in canon to confirm this, but I would call it a headcanon moment – I like the idea that Dumbledore keeping tabs on the curse is how he knows that Voldemort is going to come back one day. Because if we think about it, he’s been saying this since before Harry even knew he was a wizard, right? From immediately in 1981, whenever it was that Voldemort fell, Dumbledore was immediately saying, “Hey, y’all, he’s not gone forever; he will be back,” so I wonder if this is how he kept tabs. Like, if he had to get a new Defense Against the Dark Arts professor at the end of every year, he was like, “Okay, well, I guess he’s still out there.”

Eric: I think that’s brilliant, actually.

Laura: I mean, do you want to declare canon before we run to an ad break?

Eric: Hell yeah.

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

[Ad break]

Laura: We’re back, and we’re still on the topic of Hermione and her rebellious streak. I will say it does have its limitations; Hermione is still a stickler for the rules that she is entrusted to enforce as a prefect, and she’s going in for round two with Fred and George because they are now testing Fainting Fancies on first years after they already had their prior conversation about how they shouldn’t be doing this. And what I think is so brilliant about this moment… Hermione’s hair is described as crackling with electricity.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: She just is filled with righteous indignation. She is on a mission for justice, and she goes to them, and they say, “Oh, yeah? What are you going to do about it? Give us detention?” And she’s like, “No, but I’m going to tell your mom.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And they immediately go on the defensive and say, “No, you wouldn’t tell her,” because they know exactly what that means for them. We’ve seen what Mrs. Weasley will send to the school at breakfast time to explode in front of everyone, so they’re clearly fearing that. But I actually thought it was funny that Hermione realized that her usual arsenal of tools as a prefect aren’t really going to work on Fred and George, because they don’t care, so she went outside of the elevated role of responsibility that she’s given to just pick something personal to threaten them with, and it works.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I don’t think anything could work better than this threat, because something that… so it’s been a few years since we last read this book. As I was reading this scene and reading Hermione’s rage, I assumed that she would take points from her own House, from Gryffindor, because the conversation is public enough that everyone in the common room would see that that’s why Gryffindor loses points. And you can hate Hermione, sure; you can absolutely be like, “What? Our own House prefect got rid of…?” scrutiny, but ultimately, no one can turn a blind eye as to why, and so it’s actually some social leverage if she starts to say, “If I catch you doing this again, Gryffindor is going to lose more.” Because one of the few things that every student in Hogwarts can care about is winning the House Cup, and even though you can blame Hermione for taking the points, that doesn’t really stick. You know what I’m saying?

Andrew: What surprises me about this is that Fred and George are just now realizing they need to bring their testing behind the scenes instead of doing it… they’ve been doing it out basically in public, in the common room. They know how Hermione is going to respond. They know how dangerous this is. Making kids faint on purpose? Oh my God! That’s abusive. You are drugging them. We’ve talked about the dangers of love potions and how… we read about that now and we’re like, “Whoa, this is weird.” So is these fainting things! What are they called again? Fainting Fancies.

Eric and Laura: Fainting Fancies.

Eric: You notice that later in this chapter Hermione is passed out, and Fred and George say to leave her. Do you think there’s anything untoward there going on?

Andrew: Oh. Well, yeah, because when you read it, she’s just exhausted, but that is… a coincidence?

Eric: I think Fred and George learned absolutely nothing from this confrontation.

James: Don’t we see later that she checked the rules, and then she goes, “Actually, they’re allowed, it’s fine; I can’t do anything”?

Laura: Oh, gosh. I’m trying to…

Andrew: If so, I guess that tracks with the rest of Hogwarts.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, James is the trivia master, so I definitely… James, I trust your expertise here.

[James laughs]

Eric: Yeah. If James says it happened, it happened.

Andrew: That’s true, yeah.

Laura: [laughs] But James, since we’re on you right now, do you think there’s a deeper reason that Fred and George might have been doing this?

James: Yeah, so I think it sort of goes back to earlier this day, right? We’ve seen them coming off of the speech that Umbridge has given at the opening feast. They’ve really just sort of seemed like they want to get out of here; they don’t want to be at Hogwarts anymore. They’re only here, basically, for product development, to develop Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes, and so it seems like maybe they’re ramping this up because of what they’ve already seen from Umbridge. They know that they’re not long for this place. And we’ve seen throughout the whole series, and we see more later, that their pranks, their tools for comedy, they regard those as tools of dissent, ways to speak truth to power, and so it works on two levels. “On the one hand, we want to get out of here. We’ve got to get this research done so we can start selling these products and make a living. But on the other hand, we need to give people the tools to fight back against this terrible person. We want to help people.”

Eric: Hashtag resist.

James: Exactly. Fred and George, they’re on top of it.

Eric: I wonder what Umbridge did. If she’s in their crosshairs already, I wonder what their first lesson with her was like. I think it’s the kind of thing where Fred and George are opportunists, so over the next month or so, as more complaints come in about Umbridge, I can see them catching wise and being like, “Oh, okay, we should focus all of our attention on there.” I tend to think of them being as more like their entrepreneur selves at this point, where fortunately, we can harness that energy for good later on when the school really starts to become a totalitarian state, but yeah, I just want to know everything about Fred and George targeting Umbridge, because when they set their mind to something, they are really good at it.

Micah: For sure.

Laura: Yeah, and we know they do eventually. We know they definitely get there where they are deliberately causing distractions and obstructing Umbridge in any way they can. I’ve just never… James, I love that you brought this up, because I’ve never considered when the breaking point was for them. When was the point that they were like, “Okay, we don’t like you”?

[James and Laura laugh]

Laura: So yeah, we’ll have to keep an eye out for that and see was this the moment? Or does it come at a different point? But it definitely happens.

Micah: Yeah. And just a couple things for me, I do think Hermione is the exact kind of prefect that would take points from her own House. I think if you were to compare her to somebody…

Eric: Her hands are tied! They’re being forced!

Micah: Well, I’m thinking of Draco, Pansy, unlikely that they’re going to be taking points from Slytherin anytime soon.

Eric: You’d have to do something real bad, yeah.

Micah: But I did want to talk also a little bit about the testing that’s going on here, because there is a theme of abuse in this chapter, and I think that you could call what Fred and George are doing to these young students abuse. Now, it’s mentioned that they’ve tested their products out on themselves, so they know how they will react to them, but they’re also quite a bit older than these first years, so they have absolutely no idea how they’re going to react to these Fainting Fancies. And okay, they’re paying their test subjects, but do first years know any better in this type of situation?

Andrew: No.

Eric: Yeah, why do you think it’s first years? It’s because they can’t really consent.

Micah: Exactly. Older, more mature students with more agency seem like they’re better fits for these types of tests.

Eric: Yeah, why isn’t Lee Jordan testing these instead?

Andrew: Because he’s going to say no.

Micah: I feel like that could be a stretch in analysis, but again, just given where we’re going in this chapter…

Eric: I love this, Micah, because you just talked about how…

Micah: We can’t absolve Fred and George of this.

Andrew: No.

Eric: Fred and George and Umbridge are very similar.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I’ve never thought that. They’re like…

Micah: Three pees in a pod, yeah.

Eric: Three peas in the pod!

Andrew: Well, and a first year, who’s 11 years old, is going to be like, “Oh, some candy? Helping fellow wizards experiment with this new product? That sounds fun.” And you know Fred and George could sweet talk them into it as well.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And Galleons in their pocket. They’re young. They’re poor.

Laura: Yeah, “You’re going to pay us with candy?”

Micah: Let’s not forget Dudley at the very beginning of Goblet of Fire. This is not that different.

Andrew: No, it’s not.

James: It’s great that we see Fred and George try to play this off like they’re doing science. Fred says something like, “We already tested on ourselves; now we’re just testing different dosages on different people,” as if Hermione is going to be like, “Oh, great. Scientific trial. Keep it up.”

Eric: “As you were.”

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, to test the side effects on different people, I think they said, as if that makes it okay just because they were all right when they had it.

Eric: I mean, at least do it to Slytherins, right? Am I right?

Andrew: Actually, yes. You’re very right.

Eric: Not fellow Gryffindors. Come on, guys. Seriously.

Laura: Listen, I’m sure Fred and George’s products are all GMOs and naturally organic and ethically sourced.

Andrew: Gluten-free, fair trade…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, I don’t know about ethically sourced, because don’t they have to steal stuff from Snape’s potion stores and exotic animal parts?

Laura: Well, yeah.

Andrew: That’s Snape. Who cares?

Laura: But I mean, ethics… there is a matter of opinion, I think.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They’re more guidelines than rules.

Laura: [laughs] Right? I love, though… we talk a lot about how stuff like this makes Hogwarts a security nightmare, but James, would you say it also makes it a legal nightmare?

James: Oh, I mean, I have to think so.

[Everyone laughs]

James: There’s so much going on here, and the school is supposed to be in charge of all of it. I mean, all the security stuff, that all goes back to… that’s all legal problems. But even when it’s just these jokes that they’re playing… can you even imagine when a Muggle-born goes home for the summer and starts telling these stories?

Eric: Oh, God.

James: “I took nosebleed candy, and I got paid for it. It was hilarious.” Those parents!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “My nose didn’t stop bleeding and I turned very pale, but it was fine in the end. They found the antidote in time.”

Laura: I get the impression a lot of Muggle-born students don’t tell their parents very much about what happens at Hogwarts for these reasons. I mean, I would…

James: Probably for the best.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Also, where’s McGonagall? I understand that she has classes to teach; I also understand that she has an office where she sleeps, or somewhere where she must sleep. But she doesn’t really pop into Gryffindor Tower that often. Can a prefect or any member of the House go over to her and tell her what’s going on and have her come and see it for herself? She doesn’t do wellness checks or something.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: As a Head of House, you would think we would see her more often.

Micah: It’s the ’90s.

Andrew: That’s what the prefects are for, the wellness checks. No, I would like to think she has an open door policy and is happy to hear any concerns at any time.

Eric: Because Hermione could have threatened to go to her.

Micah: Sure, and that’s another theme in this chapter, of not going to adults about things that they need to know about.

Eric: [laughs] They’re empowered to handle it themselves, because that’s fine.

Micah: Or are they?

Laura: Well, definitely going to be touching on some interesting themes related to those two topics. But we want to close the loop on Hermione here, because Hermione is in this chapter… after that interaction she had with Fred and George, she resumes sitting in her spot with Harry and Ron by the fire and places these not very convincing-looking knitted hats on the hearth by the fireplace and covers them with bits of rubbish and trash in an effort to basically trick the house-elves into freeing themselves…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … and I was just wondering, how would we characterize what Hermione is doing here? She’s creating a mess to lure the house-elves to clean and then get the jump scare of, “Oh my God, I just touched clothes.”

Andrew: “I’m free. Thank goodness.”

Eric: She’s inflicting trauma. She’s not part of the solution, right?

Andrew: She’s really happy about it, though. She really thinks her plan is working. But then I’m wondering, if so many house-elves are suddenly being freed and then living out in… going on a vacation or whatever, wouldn’t there start to become operational issues at Hogwarts? Who’s cooking? Who’s cleaning if all these house-elves are suddenly being freed and disappearing?

Eric: Hermione knows she’s in the wrong, and that’s why she has to hide the clothes.

Andrew: But then the irony of it all is that, yeah, okay, so let’s say a lot of house-elves are being freed; then a smaller pool of house-elves are doing all the work and picking up the slack of the house-elves who have been freed, so now these poor house-elves who are still there are working more than ever!

Eric: Yeah, she’s creating a labor shortage. But no, I mean, again, she knows it’s wrong, because she’s hiding it. And Ron, at least… I very rarely agree with Ron, and I very rarely disagree with Hermione, but this chapter has the best of both of them. Ron takes the rubble off. I mean, at least give them a fair chance.

Micah: I think James has the right question to answer your question, Laura. Not to answer a question with another question.

James: Yeah, I mean, I’m just sort of wondering whether Hermione has fully figured out how this is working. I mean, can you free house-elves just by leaving clothes for them to pick up?

Laura: Right.

James: I feel like that would lead to… if you hand a house-elf a shirt and ask them to wash it, then they could be free. And it could be you have to leave it out with an intent to free them; it’s an intent to give them clothes, but it also seems like… should Hermione even be able to free Hogwarts house-elves in the first place?

Andrew: No.

James: She’s not the headmaster. She’s not in charge. It feels like a Dumbledore job.

Eric: Exactly. But the thing is, what if it worked? So maybe they avoid the clothes not because it would free them, but because they don’t know.

Laura: Maybe. It is interesting. I think about when Lucius freed Dobby unintentionally.

Eric: Yeah, he didn’t have the intent to do it.

Laura: Yeah, and so I wonder if the intent of the house-elf matters, because Dobby did want to be freed.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: He was kind of a rare exception to the current social trend that we see in the books, and Harry pulling a fast one by putting his sock in the diary, that basically planted the seed for what happened. So I guess really, it might just be case by case.

Andrew: Well, or…

Eric: I think we can call this a plot hole, right? Or an inconsistency?

Laura: Well, yeah.

Eric: I think we can.

Andrew: Okay, so Hermione doesn’t have the power to free them, I would say, because she is not the owner of these house-elves. Lucius was able to free Dobby because wasn’t it…? It was Lucius who handed Dobby the diary, right? Yeah, so it was like an acknowledgement. “Here, have this.”

Micah: But the sock was concealed within.

Andrew: It was.

Micah: So you could debate that point. But I agree with what James is saying; I don’t think Hermione has any position to free the Hogwarts house-elves. They’re not the… ultimately, they don’t serve her, they serve the school, and so it would have to be Dumbledore, or somebody at that level who would… and I’m assuming – and maybe this is the wrong assumption – that those house-elves are working at Hogwarts of their own free will. If they wanted to leave, I presume Dumbledore would allow any of them to leave, but I think the bigger question is why don’t they want to leave? And how they’ve been indoctrinated over probably decades of service. That’s a whole other conversation.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Yeah, well, but this does work because they do avoid the clothes, because only Dobby will clean all of Gryffindor tower by the end of this.

Micah: Yeah, well, we see that when he shows up with a million hats on in our next couple of chapters.

Andrew: I love that.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: And Hermione is so pleased with herself when she sees the hats are gone in the morning. She’s like, “Looks like they do want freedom.”

Andrew: “I was right.”

Laura: And it’s like, sorry, Dobby just likes bad clothes.

Eric: Dobby is just extra.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I will say, it is fun also to see Ron kind of give Hermione crap about them not being very good hats…

[James laughs]

Eric: … but then she puts her head down and actually gets it done. She learns how to do it better. That’s what we hope; we always want to be bettering ourselves.

Laura: Yeah. Well, again, Hermione is, I actually think, a really big touch point in this chapter. Obviously, we’re about to talk a whole lot about Umbridge when we get to the next part of the discussion, but Hermione actually does a lot here. And in addition to Hermione helping Harry understand why it is that basically the entire student body does not believe him, Harry is actually approached by Luna Lovegood as the fourth years are leaving Herbology and the fifth years are coming in, and she loudly proclaims to Harry, “I believe that you saw Voldemort, I believe that you fought him, and I believe that he’s back.”

Andrew: “I declare loyalty! To you!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: This is no small gesture. If Luna had an ounce of social clout, she would have lost it in this moment. I don’t want to discredit that, but ultimately…

Andrew: No, it was… yeah, it was nice.

Eric: But she’s immediately discredited by everybody, by Hermione, by everyone.

Andrew: Hermione in particular is brutal.

Micah: But discredited in what sense, though?

Eric: Well, you believe in the Crumple-Horn Snorkack, too, don’t you? I mean, it doesn’t… Harry feels really, really pretty good about it, and then immediately after that, after a second, he doesn’t anymore.

Andrew: Yeah, because Hermione also points out that Luna only believes things that have no evidence, so that’s a roundabout way of saying she only believes you because, like so many other people, there’s not enough evidence.

Eric: You can’t prove it. Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: But then Hermione’s reaction, it was just inappropriate, especially when Harry is discovering somebody on his side, when they feel so few and far between at this point. And I’m just wondering if Hermione was feeling a little jealous of Harry and Luna even merely being friends, or is she feeling threatened in some way because another woman is paying attention to Harry? It just doesn’t make sense to me why she reacts like this.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a fair question.

Micah: Well, first off, Hermione is in no position to judge Luna because she doesn’t know her at all, so the fact that she makes those types of claims about the Crumple-Horned Snorkack and other things… she doesn’t know Luna as a person, so that kind of pissed me off, but…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We’re at the point where we’re defending our own Houses.

Micah: I think it’s because of the fact of who it was. If it was anybody else in this situation who showed up besides Luna to substantiate Harry’s story, it would have been fine, but it’s because of how Luna is viewed as a person by other students that delegitimizes the entirety of the situation, right? And that’s unfortunate.

Eric: But the delegitimization is short-lived, because then we hear from Hufflepuff…

Micah: The dick?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Hufflepuff. Ernie Macmillan, who comes up…

Micah: He is a…

Eric: Listen!

Micah: Yeah, go ahead.

Eric: And Harry does the thing in the internal monologue too; he hasn’t always loved Ernie, but it actually… Luna starts the avalanche, right? Or starts the snowball off over the hill.

Micah: Make sure you say it in a very pompous voice, though, because that’s how he delivered it.

Eric: He just says that he believes him too, and that’s all.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: What does he say before he says, “I believe you too”?

Eric: I’d have to open the book. I don’t even know. But here’s the thing, it’s a bigger deal…

Laura: It’s basically like, “It’s not just weirdos that support you.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, okay, okay. Look, are Hufflepuffs perfect? No, and not a single one will ever claim to be, so anyway…

Laura: True.

Micah: But it is interesting that here we see representations from the two other Houses coming to support Harry in this moment, yet we’re all kind of sitting here criticizing how they’re going about proclaiming their loyalty. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Well, right, but that’s why I said it’s no small action, and Ernie Macmillan… I mean, not just because James and I both, “Hey, Hufflepuffs,” we love a fellow Hufflepuff doing the right thing, but they had Cedric Diggory last year. For any of the Hufflepuffs to get over the fact, or to align themselves with Harry, is to not see the division that has been so successfully wrought across the rest of the school. If anybody should maybe not believe Harry or be extra hurt by Cedric’s death to the point of being susceptible to lies about what happened, it would be those who cheered for him the most – Cedric – I think. So Ernie Macmillan does a real solid. I’ll never say a bad thing about him, until the next time.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: It is important, though, that you have Ernie from Hufflepuff, you have Luna from Ravenclaw, because we’ve already seen division within Gryffindor itself, and it comes up again a little bit later on in this chapter where Harry just walks past Seamus; they look like they’re going to say something to each other, but they don’t. So the House unity piece of it is starting to come together ever so slowly.

Eric: And isn’t Ernie a prefect too?

Micah: Oh, who cares?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: The Hufflepuffs do.

Eric: He has status! I care.

Micah: Well, look how that worked out for Cedric.

James: Ernie Macmillan I think is a prefect, although if there’s one person who doesn’t need to be intentionally handed a great big platform from which to deliver edicts from above, I think it’s Ernie Macmillan. But yeah, he is a prefect.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: He didn’t ask for it; he had prefectness thrown upon him.

Laura: He’s the chosen one of Hufflepuff.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

James: He’d make a great Shakespearean actor.

Laura: All right, well, now we’ve got to talk about this detention. Andrew, why is Umbridge’s quill legal? It should be illegal. How does this happen?

Eric: How do we know it is legal?

Andrew: Well, okay, so Umbridge invented it. I looked that up prior to this episode.

Eric: What?! No, she didn’t.

Andrew: Yeah, she did. She made it herself. Look on the wiki.

Eric: I mean, I believe… oh, wait, the wiki is where you…? No, I believe that even the author would say she made it. I just don’t think she’s that clever. Sorry. Go on.

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] No, I mean, it’s just mind-blowing that this type of device can exist and that she would actually inflict this type of pain onto a student at the school. It’s just… I’ve said before, there’s certain moments in the series that stick with you, and you might remember your first time reading certain things. I still remember the first time reading this chapter when the book came out. Just seeing Harry go through this, and for a teacher at Hogwarts to be doing this to him, kind of like it’s ordinary; it’s no big deal… Harry is trying to treat it like it’s no big deal, and Umbridge is acting like it’s no big deal. This is a big deal!

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And it’s insidious. This is where you get the real size-up of Umbridge, the lengths she’s willing to go to to prove her false point. Harry, I guess, is still trying to be a hero by not mentioning it, but it’s crazy. He’s shocked that this is occurring.

Micah: Do we feel like we got the precursor to this with Rita Skeeter in Goblet of Fire, where she has the Quick Quotes Quill and it’s writing lies about whomever? Or it’s writing whatever is probably going through Rita’s mind. Seems like a more extreme version of it, maybe.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And evidently, you can make quills have a lot of different types of power. I don’t think that one that Rita had was invented by her; it looks like it was used by multiple journalists. But apparently you can put a lot of magic into these things.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I also love the… we could definitely draw some kind of comparison to how in the Muggle world – and I’m sure in the wizarding world, even – around any kind of paper that you might have to turn in, you get it back from the professor and you would say, “My essay was bleeding when I got it back from the professor,” because it’s all marked up in red ink.

Eric: Oh, man!

Laura: So it’s interesting that we get the literal representation of that here.

Eric: I’ve never heard that. That’s blowing my mind.

Laura: Well, maybe you’ve just never turned in a bad paper, Eric. That could be…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No. No, the only red is a big fat A, Laura.

Laura: [laughs] Well, James, you had a really interesting theory about how Umbridge might have invented this insidious quill that she’s using here.

James: Yeah, so it sort of reminded me of a tool that you might use in crafting if you can draw out a shape, a complicated pattern that you want to cut out of something – cut out of fabric or of wood or something – and then just by drawing it, this pen cuts it out of the material itself. And it does seem like Umbridge is that level of evil where she would modify it to, instead of cut leather or silk or something, just cut right into people’s skin. And then there’s also, more directly, what if this is just how wizards give tattoos, and Umbridge has just sort of spruced it up to take it to a whole ‘nother level?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I love both of those points. I love that parallel. And yeah, maybe she just repurposed some magic to inflict pain on a human.

Eric: Yeah. Except I don’t want it to take 100 attempts for it to break through the skin. If I’m getting a tattoo, I want it one and done.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Do your worst. But the worst part of it is that the skin heals over, right? So you’re re-inflicting the cut. I mean, it would be bad if Umbridge gave him a regular quill and made him write five days in a row, “I must not tell lies” on things she knows are true, or can bet that are true. That would be bad enough. But this whole self-mutilation angle is just crazy, and shows how much she enjoys power and how much she enjoys inflicting pain. Yeah, it’s really not a far leap from… this Chapter 13 of Book 5 Umbridge, and Chapter 13 of Book 7 Umbridge, they’re the same character.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Honestly, that’s very true. And yeah, I mean, she’s trying to silence Harry through inflicting physical pain repetitively against him. But the irony is, yeah, Harry is suffering as he endures five nights of this torture, but I think he’s being silent in a way that Umbridge herself didn’t predict, and it’s that he doesn’t want to give her the satisfaction of knowing that she’s getting to him, so he doesn’t protest; he doesn’t wince or show clear signs of being in pain. And to the point that was raised earlier, he doesn’t go to an adult for help. He won’t bring it up to his friends; he won’t bring it up to any professors who could do anything about it. Why is that?

Andrew: It really upsets me that Harry doesn’t want to speak to them. And he explains this in this chapter; he doesn’t want to give Umbridge what she probably wants, but I do think Harry should have told McGonagall or Dumbledore. This is really, really bad what’s going on, and maybe it’s just his age; he’s not fully thinking this through or realizing how bad this is to be doing this to a student. But it does break my heart that he didn’t want to tell one of them.

Micah: Yeah, so just hang with me here for a minute, because this is another time in the series – we see it with the Dursleys – where Harry is being physically and emotionally abused. And the truth is that nobody came to save him at Privet Drive when he was being treated this way by Petunia and Vernon, and the truth is that Dumbledore knew about it, and so why should he trust anybody now? We’ve already said that he didn’t want to go to McGonagall; he didn’t want to go to Dumbledore. So subconsciously, he may be drawing on past experiences and trauma, and we see this further his isolation, until Ron recognizes what’s going on. And sorry, but this was another movie moment that was given to Hermione, and it really showed how great of a friend Ron is in this particular chapter. And I also think there’s a little bit of battered wife syndrome, because he keeps going back for more and more of the same treatment, and he knows the pain that’s going to be inflicted, but he still goes, and more importantly, he’s refusing to seek help, so this is a really traumatic situation. And I also want to talk about Dumbledore in this, because the way he treats Harry in the months leading up are a direct… cause Harry to react the way that he does in this chapter, in not wanting to go to him for help.

Eric: Right. I mean, Dumbledore specifically… the suggestion to go see Dumbledore exhausts Harry every single time because he’s got beef specifically with Dumbledore, because, “Well, he’s ignoring me. Why would I go to him for anything?” He’s used to… so that I understand. But to your point, Micah, I mean, I think Umbridge’s intention is to very much demoralize Harry. She does end up galvanizing him instead, but that’s only until Harry’s best friends come up and give him purpose by starting the DA, so right now, he’s taking in this energy, this pain, and he’s just sitting with it, and that’s not healthy. It’s not great for anybody. It’s going to be a little while before he can really channel that, or until he can start feeling the rage that he felt on the first day of class and channel it into something altogether good and productive.

James: I think Harry may also sort of be aware, on a subconscious level, anytime he protests, or anyone else protests, he’s giving Umbridge a chance to take more power. I mean, we see this again and again. Umbridge shuts down all the organizations; McGonagall gets the Quidditch team back; Umbridge goes, “Bam, I’m going to take over all discipline.” So I think Harry is sort of aware that he has limited capital to make changes here, and if he goes up without planning things out, without having a way to actually make things change, what’s going to result is Umbridge is going to say, “All right, someone is trying to move against me. I’m going to shut that down, and in doing so, I’m going to become even more powerful,” and Harry doesn’t want that.

Eric: That’s wild. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it’s almost like you can’t reason with this person, the fact that she’s here and behaving in this manner with impunity. You’ve already lost the first round of resisting that you would want to do. You’ve got to try and plan something and be two or three steps ahead, but you can’t directly respond or you’re just going to get more detentions, because she’s in this position to dole out detentions and restrict Harry from all of this stuff that… yeah, absolutely.

Laura: Yeah. Well, he already knows that she has it out for him too, right? We can’t forget she tried to send Dementors… well, did send Dementors after him, and then tried to have him expelled, so…

Eric: I’m surprised he hasn’t guessed about the Dementors yet.

Andrew: And Fudge also knows how hard Umbridge is going to go. So to jump into Micah’s “What if?”…

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Micah: Oh, I didn’t know I can make that noise.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: What if he did tell the truth? Would Umbridge have been sacked? I personally don’t think so. Let’s say he tells the truth; this gets back to Fudge. Is Fudge going to push Umbridge out? It’s not going to be Dumbledore who has that power to let her go, I don’t think.

Laura: No, because the Ministry basically appointed her, and presumably the Ministry still has some level of oversight of Hogwarts if they can do that.

Micah: Yeah. I think it would depend if… we see in the movie that she uses this on other students, and that’s where I think if it got back to the parents, she would be in a lot of trouble. And there’s not much that Fudge would be able to do to keep her in power, because we all know it’s about how he’s perceived by other people, and so if that were to be a mark against him, that he put a teacher in place who was abusing students, then I think he wouldn’t have a choice, that he would have to get rid of her.

Eric: Yeah, and she keeps from Fudge the fact that she sent the Dementors too. It’s not like she ever cops to that. I think there’s a scene in the movie where she’s like, “What the Minister doesn’t know won’t hurt him”; she puts his picture down or something like that. [laughs] The reason I bring that up is Umbridge is basically saying… or we can assume that what she’s doing is on behalf of the Ministry, but there are lines even with that. She’s doing what she wants because she’s on a power trip and she is sadistic, and if Fudge ever found out that she was the one that sent the Dementors, he would lose serious ground. Not if the parents found out, but if he found out, he would realize the type of people that are close to him are doing things that are actually wrong. I’d like to believe that if Fudge knew it, he would take her away from Hogwarts.

Laura: I think it depends on which kids get the detention, unfortunately. I think if you’re someone like a Draco Malfoy who has very connected parents, I think Umbridge is going to look the other way and not give you that detention. I think she’s going to go after the people that she knows she can go after, like Harry.

Eric: The weak and helpless and undefended.

Laura: Well, this detention is definitely criminal for the physical abuse that it causes alone, but I had a question in thinking about the evidence of this crime: Is Umbridge not thinking ahead here? Because she’s inflicting a punishment that is leaving a literal, very distinct scar as evidence. And we know that a bunch of other kids over the course of the book are going to land in the same kind of detention, so it just feels like an interesting choice to me that she would inflict something on that many students that actually leaves a mark to prove that she did it.

James: It seems like it’s the kind of thing where everything she does, you think she can’t possibly get away with it, but then she just gets away with it, right?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: She also goes overboard.

James: Oh, absolutely.

Eric: Yeah, it’s not a permanent sort of thing on Harry’s hand the first four days he does it. It’s her greediness; it’s her wanting to inflict maximum pain and suffering that causes it to eventually be one of Harry’s two lifelong scars. All I see is excess when I think of the fact that this becomes a scar, because it’s healing over every time he writes the line and finishes it. It cuts him and then it heals, and so it’s only with tremendous abuse that he has anything to show for it.

Andrew: Maybe she’s banking on him never telling anybody and he makes up some excuse that doesn’t put the blame on anyone. But yeah, you would really think this is very damning evidence and highly risky, but maybe it speaks to just how badly Umbridge wanted to inflict this type of pain and suffering on Harry that she didn’t even care if she would get in trouble at any point.

Eric: There are also things he could do to make it better. He could probably use dittany; he could probably use some kind of numbing potion, if he were any good at Potions this year. He could numb the area beforehand, maybe save himself some of this pain instead of suffering with the full effects.

Andrew: Maybe.

Laura: Yeah. Well, Harry does mount his own small act of resistance on his final night of detention, and he’s doing this by surreptitiously watching Ron try out for Keeper through the windows.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: So anytime he hears Umbridge rustling in a drawer or a scratch of her quill, he quickly looks out the window to see if he can catch a glimpse of how Ron is doing. And I think we can spend a moment here on Ron, because there is this revelation that happens while Harry is partway through his week. There have been hints dropped throughout the chapter that Ron is doing something and he’s going somewhere and he’s doing something on his own but he’s not telling anyone, and it’s ultimately revealed that he’s been practicing to try out for the open Keeper position on the Gryffindor Quidditch team. So because Harry has this detention, he can’t go to Keeper tryouts, so at the very least, he’s trying to support his best mate at a distance, which I love. I think sometimes when people think about resisting or acts of resistance, they think that everything has to be a grand proclamation or something that has a huge impact, but oftentimes it’s the little stuff like this that really adds up over time, and I think this is the beginning of us seeing Harry on his resistance journey too.

Andrew: Yeah. It was giving a bit of, “Oh, Ron is nepo baby, isn’t he?”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Because it’s noted by Angelina that he’s becoming Keeper because of the other good Weasley players on the team, and she’s like, “Well, hopefully he’ll be able to get better,” because it seems to run in his bloodline that the Weasleys are good Quidditch players. But I will say, too, I thought there was a good life lesson here. So when we’re hearing about the other Keeper candidates, it looks like Ron’s passion and general energy – plus his family – got him the gig, and I think it’s a good reminder that you don’t necessarily need to be the best at something in the way that you expect. Maybe you’re not the best Quidditch player who’s trying out, but you do have other skills. You’re passionate about Quidditch. You showed up and really gave it your all, whereas these other candidates who Ron won out against, one of them was always complaining, and then the other was too busy with other commitments. So I thought it was just a good reminder.

Eric: Yeah, Ron is well-rounded, and it’s a credit to Angelina that she realizes that. She’s giving him some room to grow, essentially.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: So I don’t know. I wouldn’t necessarily say nepo baby or DEI hire or anything to Ron here in this moment…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, but it’s worth saying and worth noting, as Angelina says to Harry, she’s not super impressed with any of the selection. Sometimes that happens, too.

Andrew: “They all suck. I’ll take Ron.”

Laura: Yeah, well, and sometimes you do have to make the best choice that you can, right? But yeah, I’m going to agree with Eric here. I feel like characterizing someone like Ron, who comes from an economically disadvantaged family… referring to that person as a nepo baby is a little rich.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I mean, I wasn’t offended by it at all.

Laura: Oh, no, me neither.

Eric: But it is funny. We know that this is Ron’s dream. This is what he saw in the Mirror of Erised when he was 11! He’s always wanted to be a Quidditch hero.

Laura: Yeah, it’s a big moment.

Eric: So he’s wanted it for a long time. Maybe Angelina also knows that they practiced in the summer, so there is probably some skill there that… and Ron tells Harry about this too in this chapter, but she must know that there’s more to Ron than she’s seeing. What she doesn’t know is there’s also something worse to Ron, which is that once his nerves set in… but we’ll get there in due time.

Micah: Well, but for James, no nepo baby, for you, right?

[Andrew laughs]

James: No, I actually love this moment for Ron; he comes off just so hardworking and dedicated. He’s terrified; he won’t even tell anyone what he’s doing, which… I mean, he has to go out and try out eventually, so I’m not sure what the end game is there…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

James: … but he’s so scared, and he just wants it so badly that he gets through all that and just makes it happen. He’s the opposite of Harry; he doesn’t have the natural talent, but he’s got Quidditch players on his walls. He loves Quidditch more than anything.

Eric: He loves Quidditch more than Cho Chang. I’ll tell you that.

[Andrew and James laugh]

Micah: Well…

James: No, I mean, he goes out and makes it happen, and he replaces Oliver Wood. Now, Oliver Wood is a Gryffindor legend; he leaves and immediately becomes a professional Quidditch player, and Ron is trying to be the first guy since him to play Keeper. They literally have to shrink Wood’s robes down to fit Ron because Wood’s arms were so broad. Ron is stepping into this huge role, and it has to be terrifying. He really… it takes a lot to make that happen for him.

Eric: That’s such a good point.

Laura: Yeah, especially with all the self-doubt that he has, and we’re going to get to see in the chapters ahead.

Andrew: I am happy for Ron, to be clear, and it is cute that he was hiding his practicing from Harry because he didn’t want the word to get out too quick, and he wasn’t too sure of himself. But then he crushed it, and not just because he’s a nepo baby.

[James and Laura laugh]

Laura: I was going to say, Andrew, I don’t know how sincere that “I’m happy for Ron” comment was.

Andrew: No, I am, I am.

Laura: [laughs] Well, again, this is Harry’s final detention with Umbridge for now, and there is this moment at the end where Umbridge touches his arm so that she can get a glimpse of how much the message has literally and metaphorically sunk in with Harry, and when Umbridge touches him, Harry’s other scar – the one on his forehead – becomes painful, and…

[Andrew imitates a Voldemort exclamation]

Laura: [laughs] I’m sorry, is that how you page Ralph Fiennes?

[Andrew and James laugh]

Micah: He’s going to be joining soon.

Laura: [laughs] But I was wondering if any of us remember any of the theories that had to have been circulating at this point. I mean, any time Harry’s scar hurt, I remember – back before the series was finished – when we would get into theorizing we would immediately jump into, “Okay, well, why did his scar hurt this time? Was the Horcrux acting up at this…? Was it in response to Umbridge touching him, or was it just a coincidence that his scar just so happened to hurt when she touched him?”

Eric: It’s got to be a coincidence, right? As evil as she is, and in fact maybe more evil than some Death Eaters, she is not aligned with Voldemort; she merely benefits from everything he’s doing to the world later. I’m inclined to say coincidence. I don’t remember exactly what this amounts to, if it does.

Micah: I think it’s fair to be suspect here. Look at last year when we had a Death Eater in disguise, or go back to year one when Voldemort was literally on the back of the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor’s head. So we have been taught to be very wary of DADA professors, so of course we should be skeptical here. I was curious, though – and maybe this comes in later on when we learn what Voldemort has been up to – but does this map to a particular victorious moment for Voldemort? Maybe something happened right at that moment where he was feeling really good, and it just so happened that that’s when Umbridge touched his hand.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I think a new season of his favorite TV show finally premiered.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or was this the scar…? It was like the scar finally had a brother, so maybe that’s what it was.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, and I mean, sorry, Harry, but you’re having a really rough year in general, so there’s a high likelihood that your scar is going to hurt during a bad thing, because a lot of bad things are happening. But I see Harry’s reason for being concerned.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And the scar has always sort of been a self-defense mechanism to Harry to let him know he’s in danger, so maybe that is why it got a surge. Also, maybe the part of Harry that is the Horcrux that is a piece of Voldemort’s soul is also reacting defensively. Harry didn’t just mutilate himself; he mutilated this Horcrux, this Horcrux’s right hand, in a way, so maybe that is rage that is coursing through Harry, and he doesn’t know how to deal with it so he freaks out. It does leave Umbridge with the impression that she’s done a good job, though, so it also ultimately benefits Harry.

Micah: It would have been really interesting if Umbridge had the locket Horcrux at this point, because then… Horcrux touching Horcrux, in a way.

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be cool.

Laura: Yeah. Well, before we move to some odds and ends, there was a fun fact here, Andrew, that you and Micah included.

Andrew: Yeah, I just wanted to mention that in the Cursed Child, if you go and see it, you can actually see the scar is still on the back of Harry’s hand. And I thought that was a really interesting touch for them to add because unless you’re sitting in the very front of the audience, you’re probably not going to notice that, but they did it.

Micah: They did. And Andrew, when you do news for so long, it never really leaves you, so I thought that it was important to investigate this story a little bit further, and so I have it on good authority… a source has told me that they can confirm that they do paint on the scar every night.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Laura: Wow.

Micah: So this is still very much a real thing that happens in Cursed Child.

Andrew: That’s cool. Yeah, I thought they may have done away with it because they seem to be wanting to run the show for cheaper; they keep making it shorter and shorter. So I thought that’d be an easy budget cut.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: “We can’t keep affording the personal makeup artist that does the hand tattoo!”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Hey, I love this investigative journalism happening from the MuggleCast studio. I hear the White House is accepting applications for new media.

Eric: Don’t do it.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Well, in fairness, credit to Joel Meyers – who was on the show a couple months ago – the last to play Albus Severus. He’s no longer in the role, but he was able to confirm that, so…

Andrew: Micah giving away his sources. Mm-mm.

Micah: It’s a shout-out to appreciate his contributions to the show.

Andrew: Of course.

Eric: Absolutely.


Odds & Ends


Laura: All right, well, we are going to get into some odds and ends, so first odd and end: Hagrid watch. That’s how I am labeling this. Our favorite groundskeeper is still missing; Harry notes this multiple times throughout this chapter.

Andrew: Flitwick assures the students that Summoning Charms will definitely be on their Charms, OWL, so good thing Harry mastered this already.

Eric: Ah, such a good thing. I feel like this is a deliberate break. It’s like we keep getting this barrage of other assignments, and then we hear Summoning Charms, knowing full well that Harry can do it already. Oh, I don’t know about you guys, but I breathed deeply when I saw that. I was like… [sighs] Because you’re with Harry when he’s having to learn all this stuff. Another odd and end: Professor McGonagall tells Neville there’s nothing wrong with his work, apart from lack of confidence.

Laura: Aw.

Eric: Yeah, I don’t know if I believe that…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … but if you are the sort of person that believes that, then you could see this as an overall turning point for Neville. Little things like this and the bigger things that happen later – thinking over Christmas break – to focus on Neville really do show that he is a character who we’re going to be paying more attention to, and actually, at the end of this book, too, we learn about the prophecy and who else that entails. So it’s his book; we’re all just reading it.

Micah: Well, you wouldn’t know it from Fantastic Beasts, but we learn in this chapter that Bowtruckles can be quite violent, to the point of poking people’s eyes out with their sharp fingers, and I just can’t see Pickett doing this.

Andrew: No.

Micah: I feel like he needs an evil twin brother that we meet later in the series that perhaps has a penchant for poking people’s eyes out, maybe eating them. But it was fun. It was actually… and talking about Hogwarts classes, Grubbly-Plank – going back to our time machine – she did a good job in this chapter. She was a good professor.

Andrew: She did, and you know what? I would like… where’s my camera? Right…? I would like to say, Grubbly-Plank, I am sorry for the comments I made about you five years ago. New year, new me.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: You’re kind of still thinking of pirates though, don’t you? Whenever you read her name?

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Her name sounds like she’s a pirate.

Andrew: Yeah, it does. But it’s cool.

Eric: [in a pirate voice] “Grubbly-Plank.”

Laura: Honestly, that’d be a cool pirate name. And last thing we wanted to call out is that seven people tried out for the role of Keeper on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, so there’s that number again.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: And now we’re going to get into our MVP. This week’s question for the panel: Inspired by the revelation Hermione makes to Harry about the experience of the entire rest of the student body seeing Harry come back from the maze with dead Cedric, what would we have thought, and how would we have reacted, if we had been onlookers to the third task and seen the way that it ended up?

Andrew: I’d just be looking around; I’d be like, “Are you all seeing this?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “What the F just happened in there? This is a security nightmare. Are you joking?” No, but I would also believe what Harry had to say, because he’s the one who carried Cedric’s body out.

Eric: Yeah, you would see the emotions on Harry’s face; you could tell in that moment that he knew it. I would just be staring shocked. I don’t think I’d be able to say anything; I don’t think words would come. I think I’d just be exhausted and crestfallen because my hero, the champion of the school, died. He didn’t have to die. He could lose. He could come in second, fine. But nobody was expecting death.

Micah: I would probably say something like, “Who knew this was the prize for winning?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Pretty dark, Dumbledore.”

Laura: That’s dark. I would immediately start a true crime podcast to investigate the murder.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I would love to listen to that.

James: I think I, unfortunately, probably would have followed the arc of most of the wizarding world.

[Andrew gasps]

James: If I’m Harry’s close friend, and I know him and I can talk him to him daily, and seeing what he’s going through, then I’m think I’m believing him. But if I’m just watching from the stands, I think I’m probably at first believing what the Ministry is saying. But then we go forward and the Ministry is clearly not telling us everything; I’m going to start to see Harry’s inside of the story, see that there’s more going on here.

Andrew: Thank you for your honesty, James.

Eric: Yeah, that’s very refreshing.

Andrew: That’s not the cool thing to say, but it’s the true thing.

Laura: I mean, honestly, your answer, James, is the answer that would be true for all of us too, I think.

[James laughs]

Eric: Agree.

Laura: So really appreciate that.


Lynx Line


Laura: And speaking of things we appreciate, we’re moving on to our Lynx Line. This is our newest benefit on Patreon. Thank you so much to those who support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast for answering this week’s question, which is: What would you do to resist the Umbridge regime at Hogwarts? No matter how big or small, we all have a part to play in the resistance.

Andrew: Sam said,

“I went back to watching Archer recently so this is definitely influenced from that, but I would leave crumbs of food in her office, or at least by her desk, so that she would get ants.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s some good trouble.

Eric: Right. Yes, the little, little ways of annoying her, I think, are the way to do it. Tipsy Elf adds, “I’d steal all of her cat portraits. She doesn’t deserve them.”

Andrew: Oooh, that would hurt.

Eric: And Mayelin also suggested replacing the cat plates with centaurs.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yikes.

Eric: I can only imagine the photoshoot of trying to get centaurs to wear a bow. But also, yeah, again, just something to get under her skin.

Micah: Ashley said,

“I would become an Animagus (taking cat form) simply to get close to Umbridge so that once she trusts me, I could begin taking a dump in her left shoe and hide all her hair ties under the fridge.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: This is oddly specific. I think Ashley has a cat.

Eric: And I’m just making a mental note to myself to check under our fridge for hair ties that Martha has lost.

Laura: Well, check your left shoe too, apparently.

Eric: Oh no! [laughs]

Laura: Kathleen says,

“I would create situations in her class that specifically require the use of magic, like releasing a boggart, pixies, or other creatures, or bewitching objects in the classroom that would be real annoying until you’ve dealt with them.”

Eric: Oh my god, I love this.

James: ThatBatLady says,

“I would sneak into the laundry room and dye her clothing, subtly over time so she doesn’t notice immediately. Put shrinking and growing charms on them, have them intermittently go wet and dry… animate them so they dance at random intervals, etc. I would also try to convince Dobby to enhance her food with weird additions like rose water and licorice. Lastly, I’d get messages and letters going between Filch and Umbridge which imply that they have romantic feelings for one another – Parent Trap style! I almost felt too sorry for Filch to say that, but then I remembered how giddy he was with Umbridge’s pledge to mandate corporal punishment.”

Andrew: Our listeners are so creative.

Laura: I know. I love this.

James: This belongs in the TV show.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It really does, yeah.

Andrew: He said it! Max that!

[Laura laughs]

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Eric: There we go.

Andrew: Fer said,

“The natural disposition of Hogwarts to defend itself against outside threats could’ve started to be leveraged earlier in a more intentional and organized way – namely against the common enemy that is Ministry interference through Umbridge. I would’ve tried to bring the issue into the open, name it, identify it, and raise awareness. A counter-campaign against Ministry interference at Hogwarts could do that. From that, follow the acts of resistance. Organized and big ones, sure, but also small and organic ones as sentiment shifts against Umbrige. How will she navigate the castle if the stairs simply won’t move towards where she needs to go?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

“If the subjects of portraits that give access to places are always mysteriously absent when she needs access to wherever they guard? Or what if the food on her plate is just always mysteriously moldy or inedibly salty? What if she can’t walk the grounds outside without tripping with a tree root or getting pooped on by a bird?”

Andrew: There’s poop again.

“What if her decorative plates just will not stay on the walls and keep crashing down into a billion little porcelain pieces as soon as she steps out of the room? What if she somehow simply cannot walk into a room without walking into a ghost at every turn? Much like a body, Hogwarts has its own immune system – you just need to make it aware that it is in danger.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: So many ideas.

Laura: Yeah, mic drop. I love that.

Eric: Mev says,

“I would be scared to do anything, especially if my parents were working for the Ministry. I am not the rebellious type. I would cheer my friends who are rebellious, though, and keep their secret until Umbridge made me drink Veritaserum, of course.”

And I actually probably most honestly fall into this category, too. I’d be very scared of resisting, and so would be Sara, Rachel, and Carlee. We’d just have to find a very small way to resist. You would still do it, but you’ve got to also look out for yourself, because Umbridge is pretty dangerous.

Laura: Yeah. Hey, passive resistance work.

Micah: Sherry says,

“I was an adult when I read all the books back in the 2000s, and as an adult, I was horrified at the lack of action by the staff. So thinking that way, I’d go to the media about Umbridge and her blood quill. The reason I can’t read Order of the Phoenix again after the first time is that the torture, the interference, it is too agonizing to reread. If Fudge wouldn’t stop her, then go to the media. I would hope parents would scream over what was happening at their children’s school.”

Laura: Yeah. And finally, Monet shared a story about creating annoying noises as a preschooler in protest of nap time to disrupt it, so that’s kind of the basis for this.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And Monet goes on to say,

“I’d do the same for Umbridge, but amped up times a hundred. Music, beeps, screeches, nails on a chalkboard coming from a dozen different sources in her classes, sometimes a single beep every seven minutes, and sometimes an unending annoying ad jingle. She can’t figure out where it’s coming from or stop it, and would eventually spend every class running around trying to figure out what was going on.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Beautiful. These are all amazing. Thank you so much, y’all.

Andrew: Yeah, and don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and if you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can email or send a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Send in those voicemails; we love hearing you all.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time to hear this week’s Quizzitch question.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: All right, this week’s question: Which US fast food chain was the first to add savory biscuits to their menu? Which was in the 1970s. I’ve got a savory biscuit with me right here; I’ve been waiting all episode to munch on it, but first I have to read the correct answer…

Micah: You have to heat it up.

Eric: Well, it’s kind of lost its heat. Yeah, you’re right. Okay, well, anyway, the correct answer was Hardee’s. Hardee’s was the first chain to have the savory biscuits. They look like this, if any British viewers happen to be watching; they are not very cookie-like, but they are delicious. Correct answers were submitted to us by Buff Daddy; Carl Jr.; Elizabeth K…

Andrew: That’s funny because Hardee’s is called Carl’s Jr. in some parts of the country.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Carl’s Jr., yeah. Ravenpuff from Sweden; Rupert Grint’s Accountant; Sssssneaky Ssssnape; The honey in the biscuit at KFC would like a word; The kids that fail because of Umbridge’s awful teaching; Tofu Tom; and “Would you like fries with that?” “Yes, I lived in the ’70s.” Okay. 48%, by the way, say they did not look that up; they knew that Hardee’s was a thing. And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: So in this chapter, Harry is tasked with completing an illustration of a Bowtruckle. What English children’s book author started out as a biological illustrator, a subject matter which certainly influenced the animal characters of their books? This is going to be a good one. I’m very happy with this one. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or you can find “Quizzitch” at the main nav bar if you’re on the site doing other stuff.

Andrew: And check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Laura and Pam are reviewing the latest season of Outlander, and in the next couple of weeks, we’ll have episodes in which we review Onyx Storm and discuss cozy video games. And then over on Millennial, we ask the question… forget the boomer complaints; what are our biggest millennial complaints? So we got a lot of great feedback from probably some people who are listening tonight. All of these shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years and counting. And you could support us by going to MuggleCastMerch.com – not to be confused with the overstock store – to get official MuggleCast shirts, hoodies, glassware, hats, and more. Apple Podcasts users can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And then the best way to support us is by pledging at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you get all the benefits of Gold, plus our livestreams, our yearly stickers, Lynx Line participation, another physical gift every year, a video message from one of the four of us made just for you, and the chance to cohost MuggleCast one day, just like James did today. Thanks, James, for joining us today.

James: Oh, absolutely. What a great time.

Andrew: You did great, and we can see why you took the top prize during Quizzitch Live. Well done.

James: Thank you very much. Yeah, it’s been amazing.

Andrew: Awesome. Glad you had a good time, and thank you so much for all your contributions today. And listeners, if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and please leave a five star review in your favorite podcast app. And last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and everything MuggleCast. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew. [laughs] Eric is eating the biscuit…

Eric: I’m more biscuit than person right now.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: This is delicious. I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

James: And I’m James.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

James and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #690

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #690, Does Dumbledore Spy Through Chocolate Frog Cards?! and More Muggle Mail


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, raising your hand? Totally fine and won’t land your friends in detention, because we are taking your questions on Order of the Phoenix and some of our other recent discussions here on MuggleCast. And joining us for today’s episode is one of our Slug Club patrons, Evalynda. Hey, Evalynda. Welcome.

Evalynda: Hi! Hello, hello. I’m so excited to be here on this episode.

Andrew: We’re excited to have you too. Thank you so much for joining us. And we’ve known you for a few years now; we see you pop into the Slug Club hangouts, chat there from time to time, and we see you in the Discord too, so it’s great to have you on. Can we get your fandom ID?

Evalynda: Yes. Okay, so my favorite book is Half-Blood Prince. My favorite movie is Sorcerer’s Stone. I am a very proud and loyal Hufflepuff. I Hufflepuff till I die.

Eric: Aww.

Evalynda: [laughs] And my Ilvermorny House is Pukwudgie; my Patronus, oddly enough, is an aardvark; and then my all-time favorite chapter is “Secrets of Riddle.”

Andrew: Oooh, excellent.

Laura: Yeah, good choice.

Evalynda: It’s grown on me, actually.

Andrew: Okay.

Evalynda: I don’t know if you guys have found this by doing the Chapter by Chapter, but we’ve grown up with the books, so now that we’re older, you see it through a different lens. And with me being a clinician, “The Secrets of Riddle” has so much depth to it, and when I was in grad school, I had to do a case study and I chose Voldemort, so that was a very good deep dive into how he became who he was.

Laura: That is so cool.

Andrew: Yeah. You mentioned your Patronus is an aardvark; I’m kind of jealous of that because I used to love Arthur, the book series and TV show as a kid.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Evalynda: Oh, yeah!

Andrew: Did you like Arthur, too?

Evalynda: I did love Arthur.

Andrew: Oh, jealous.

Evalynda: It’s also one of my favorite memes.

Andrew: The fist?

Laura: Oh, yeah, the fist. The clenched fist.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Think a lot of us are feeling that meme right now.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Evalynda: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: All right, well, we have a lot of great emails today, and we’re looking forward to getting Evalynda’s feedback on all of them as well, but first, a couple of announcements. We are in the thick of the colder months season, the winter season, so please check out the MuggleCast Cozy Comfy Combo Pack to stay warm this winter, and to help you stay warm further, we are offering the Cozy Comfy Combo Pack at its lowest price yet, $20 for the beanie and the socks. And only ten of these combo packs remain; we are down to the end here, so we would love to move them. You can purchase yours at MuggleMillennial.etsy.com; we’ll have a link at the top of the show notes, too, so you can easily access them. The beanie and the socks are both so comfortable. Eric passed along some socks recently to me – some extra MuggleCast socks, not just any old socks.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Definitely check those out, listeners; it’s a great way to support the show. And while you’re there, check out other MuggleCast merch, like signed album art, MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirts, or you could just purchase the socks. But the Cozy Comfy Combo Pack is the only way you can get the beanie right now, because we’re down to just a few beanies left, so don’t miss out.

Eric: Amazing. And this weather is no joke; I have a burst pipe in my apartment building.

Andrew: Oh, no!

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Eric: The coldest weather. First time. Everything’s okay, but it’s important to stay warm. And you know what? Just buy some extra socks; put them on the pipes.

Micah: You should have kept those socks, clearly.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, you sent me bags of socks.

Micah: There’s a return slip in that box, right?

Eric: I want to be clear; the socks I gave Andrew were also new. They were all… they have not been worn by me. I’m not passing along MuggleCast merch that I have worn. I’m sorry if I did that; we would have to charge more.

Andrew: I was going to say, for some people, it’d be a selling point.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So anyway…

Andrew: Well, and I’m wearing the beanie every day, multiple times a day.

Eric: It’s really warm.

Andrew: It is cold right now. Yeah, it’s very comfortable, so don’t miss out on that. Merch purchases help support the show, and with us flying into a new decade of MuggleCast, we could really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast as well. Become a member today and enjoy instant access to lots of great benefits, including two bonus episodes of MuggleCast every month, stickers, livestreams, ad-free episodes; you can become a MuggleCast co-host one day, like Evalynda is right now, and your support goes to running this independent podcast. It helps us spend less time in the boring, terrible Muggle world, and more time talking and living in the wonderful wizarding world, so thanks, everybody.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: And with that, it’s time for our Muggle Mail episode. And we are going to start today with some feedback about Books 3 and 4, and then we will get into Order of the Phoenix feedback.

Micah: Yeah, sometimes, Andrew, you’ve got to clean out the bottom of… new year, new us. We’ve got to clean out the bottom of the Muggle Mail bag.

Andrew: Yeah, refresh everything. I agree.

Eric: [laughs] “The bottom.” There’s 50,000 emails in there.

Micah: Oh, there’s so many emails.

[Evalynda laughs]

Andrew: So we have one voicemail this week, and here it is:

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, y’all, my name is Kayla. I’m a Hufflepuff from Nebraska, and I just wanted to send this in because it is something I’ve found kind of interesting in the Goblet of Fire, but I think it’s pretty interesting how the author wrote for there to be a champion that hangs out with each of the Houses. When Fleur first gets to Hogwarts, she sits with the Ravenclaws. When Krum gets to Hogwarts, he sits with the Slytherins. Harry is obviously in Gryffindor. So it only makes sense that the champion for Hogwarts would be Cedric in Hufflepuff, because the author probably was thinking it would be a good idea to have a champion in each of the Houses. And I just think that’s pretty interesting, and wanted to share it with y’all. Thanks for listening. Bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Thanks, Kayla.

Laura: I love that.

Andrew: Yeah, it is… so was it purposeful? It must have been, then, to have a champion in each “House.”

Eric: Yeah, whether unconsciously or not, the pairing of the students when they first sit with a House at Hogwarts that’s sort of been predetermined by the time they get there. I remember talking about this during that chapter. Definitely it helps when you have four of anyone competing if they have the most complementary and different personalities, which is modeled after the same four personality types that make up the Hogwarts Houses. So it makes sense to me.

Micah: It’s such a great play off of our House unity conversation from last week.

Eric: Ohoho!

Micah: I was thinking, too, Fleur takes Roger Davies to the Yule Ball, who is also in Ravenclaw, so I wonder if…

Eric: And Viktor takes Hermione, who is from Slytherin, as we all know.

Micah: Yes.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Because I was wondering, do the students from Beauxbatons spend time with the Ravenclaws? We don’t really see it, but that kind of reinforces what Kayla was saying.

Laura: Yeah, I feel like I remember us talking about the similarities between Beauxbatons students and Ravenclaws, and Durmstrang and Slytherin, and why they gravitated towards each other. So yeah, I think you’re on to something there.

Evalynda: Yeah, I can see them kind of having mutual… I don’t want to say agendas, in a way? And I can see them getting along. And I mean, that’s the whole point of the Triwizard Tournament, is to foster those connections.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, thank you, Kayla, for sending in that voicemail. And listeners, we love hearing you, so if you have any feedback about any episode, please load up the Voice Memo app that’s on your phone already, record a voice message – keep it around 60 to 90 seconds, ideally – and email that to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Again, we love hearing from you, so please send in those voicemails when you have something to say. Of course, most people email us, so for the rest of the episode, we will be reading some emails we received, and thanks to everybody who submitted feedback over the last couple months. As always, we love getting this feedback. It’s really awesome hearing what you all think about our discussions and the Harry Potter series.

Laura: Our first piece of Muggle Mail comes from Charlotte, who’s writing about Karkaroff’s true motivations.

“Ahoy, y’all. I have been listening to y’all for about two years-ish, but I’ve gotten very behind. I was listening to your episode ‘For the Love of Chicken Tendies,’ and had a thought. This was about the chapter in Goblet where Karkaroff insults Poliakoff, calling him a ‘disgusting boy.’ In this episode, you were talking about how these were the schools’ best students that they were putting forth, but it got me thinking… what if these weren’t Durmstrang’s best students? We know Karkaroff favors Krum and wants him to be the champion, so what if he rigged it? Bring his worst students to ensure Krum was selected? Just a thought. You guys are amazing, and thank you for being my Harry Potter friends! P.S. this podcast is older than me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oof.

Laura: All right, Charlotte.

Eric: This is a lot to take in.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That was really complimentary and then made me cringe a little bit. Because of us, not because of you.

Eric: We do not need any postscripts on any Muggle Mail. Don’t need it. Can do without.

Andrew: [laughs] With peace and love, peace and love.

Eric: Peace and love. I think this is wonderful, and it goes a way to explaining how Karkaroff feels about a kid who supposedly may also have been a champion. That solves a problem I didn’t know we had.

Andrew: Yeah, it seems like a great way to rig it. Just bring a lot of bad people, and then your favorite who’s also really good and has a good chance.

[Laura laughs]

Evalynda: Do you think that he was using him in a way for his own glory and ambition? Almost using him… if he was rigging the competition, kind of like when we’re too old to be in the game, we focus on the younger generations and get glory through them, living through them in a way.

Andrew: Right, living vicariously, I was just going to say.

Eric: I think absolutely the relationship between Karkaroff and Krum feels that way. What else does this disgraced former-Death-Eater-turned-school-headmaster really have going for him otherwise?

Micah: That was going to be my point, is let’s not forget his backstory. Let’s not forget who he is. His ambition, the fact that he is a former Death Eater, certainly, I think, lends itself to what you’re saying, Evalynda, that he would certainly come into this probably more so than any of the other headmasters that we see – more so than Dumbledore, more so than Maxime – wanting to win this.

Evalynda: Yeah, almost garnering a legacy in a way.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point. Our next email comes from Vanessa, who wants to know about Remus Lupin’s condition.

“In Prisoner of Azkaban, when Remus Lupin describes how during his werewolf transformations he bit and scratched himself, could that be interpreted as a form of self-harm? Especially looking at his story through a lens of the AIDS epidemic. I know many of those affected by that epidemic did not have the best support or acceptance from others, likely leading some to have suicidal ideologies and commit self-harm. Do y’all think Remus Lupin scratching himself could be a representation of declining mental health and self-harm as a way to relieve that?”

It’s a very loaded question.

Eric: But I think it is clear that that could be one reading of that story.

Andrew: Yeah, “one reading” is a good way to put it, because I also do think werewolves, dogs, this is typical animal behavior. They will bite themselves; they will scratch themselves. But Vanessa is also pointing out, during the transformation, I would think when you are transforming or after you transform, you might be a little uncomfortable in this new form that you’ve just taken, so you might need to scratch. It’s kind of like putting on a new shirt; you have to adjust it a little bit so it’s fitting right. But I agree, this is a good reading of it too. And we know… we’ve discussed – if not here on this show, then definitely online – that Remus’s condition is symbolic of the AIDS epidemic, so I think it is a fair read.

Evalynda: Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that it could be a possible interpretation. Self-harm, in a way – not to speak on this lightly – for some people, it’s a way to alleviate emotional pain and emotional suffering, and I think in combination with, I guess, animal behavior. So I don’t think it’s a direct one-to-one correlation, but there could be some hidden underlying undertone to that based off of his experience.

Eric: That’s an interesting… yeah, because Remus did not have a lot of control during that whole situation.

Micah: Part of me wonders, too, because it’s described as him biting and scratching himself, could it have been preventative, or he was trying to prevent the transformation from happening? He was trying to not allow himself to go from human to werewolf? I think that’s also a possibility. But let’s move on to a much more lighthearted subject and email.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: What could be more lighthearted than Dumbledore’s Chocolate Frog Card? This message comes from Eden.

“Hey y’all! This is Eden, your 14-year-old Gryffindor.”

By the way, MuggleCast turns 20 this year.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s at least two so far.

Eric: Yeah.

“And I have an interesting idea to share with you guys. So we know Dumbledore appears on many Chocolate Frog Cards, and in the wizarding world, pictures have consciousness and can communicate. I was thinking – what if Dumbledore uses this as a way to check up on things? For example, when Harry was on his first train ride in Sorcerer’s Stone and got the Chocolate Frog Card with Dumbledore on it, Dumbledore winks and walks out of the frame. Presumably, he goes to tell the real Dumbledore that Harry Potter has arrived on the train. Maybe while good old Albus is sipping a margarita on a beach in the Bahamas, he’s using Chocolate Frog Cards to spy on people. But then again, should we really give him that much credit? Thanks so much, and I freaking love y’all!”

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: Well, we freaking love you, too, Eden.

Laura: I love this.

Eric: Yeah, this is great.

Laura: Especially when you think about the fact in this book, when he gets kicked off the Wizengamot, he says the only thing he cares about is that they don’t kick him off the Chocolate Frog Cards.

Eric: Oh my God, that’s his lifeline!

Andrew: Ohh.

Evalynda: Oh my gosh.

Eric: That’s the only way he stays connected!

Laura: I’m just saying.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: It’s his legacy.

Eric: That’s like being imprisoned but still having Internet access. It’s being grounded, but still being able to have Internet access.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Honestly, there’s enormous fanfiction potential here, I just want to say. If someone’s looking for an idea, that could be a really fun one. [laughs]

Eric: And I know we never quite see it in the wizarding world, but if wizards and witches could just skidoo into paintings or become painting versions of themselves, then you could have the real Dumbledore there making the rounds on his Chocolate Frog Cards.

Andrew: But then I think this begs the question, does this mean that every other person on a Chocolate Frog Card can also spy on whoever is holding the card? Or did Dumbledore just… he was Dumbledore and came up with his own idea?

Eric: Well, think about how Phineas Nigellus Black… there’s at least two portraits of him that we know. One is in the headmaster’s office because he used to be a headmaster, and the other is a Grimmauld Place, which Harry, Ron, and Hermione take with them in her bag. And so there’s only really one subject, and he goes back and forth.

Andrew: Maybe it was part of Albus’s licensing agreement, like, “You can use my face, but I have to be able to spy.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, or it might just be a happenstance. I mean, the funniest thing about that is when Harry is like, “He’s gone!” and Ron just says, “You can’t expect him to hang around all day.” He’s got other appointments…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Dumbledore is one of the most photographed wizards of this century.

Micah: I will say, I do like how Eden realized the error of her ways at the very end in asking, “Should we really give Dumbledore that much credit?”

Andrew: [laughs] Picture her…

Eric: For spying on people, invading privacy, causing security issues? Yes, absolutely.

Micah: It does seem up his alley, to be honest with you. He is the master manipulator.

Evalynda: Another security nightmare.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, we got an email about security nightmares. Stay tuned.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s starting to sound like a personal security nightmare.

Evalynda: Yeah, I don’t know how I feel about that. That’s so creepy. I mean…

Andrew: It is. It’s a fun theory, though. [laughs]

Evalynda: It is fun. I would love to see where he pops into.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, this next email is from Cal on the casting of Severus Snape.

“Hey, MuggleCast! So I was listening to the last episode about the casting of Snape. I wonder what you may think of my concern. To me, if they were to cast someone of color, it may change how Harry and James are seen. Harry initially came to Hogwarts suspecting Snape without noticeable cause, and James bullied Snape when they were children. I just don’t want it to be seen as racial bias. Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Sirius are characters that racial change wouldn’t affect. Just curious about your thoughts on how that could change the interpretation of the series. Thanks for everything you do.”

Eric: That’s an interesting one.

Evalynda: I love this question.

Andrew: What do you think, Evalynda?

Evalynda: Okay, so being a person of color, I actually think that changing his race would add complexity to his character. And I think it kind of begs the question, if we don’t change his race, who are we protecting? Because I think that… right? Are we protecting James’s reputation, or are we also protecting Snape’s? Making him another race adds a little bit of complexity and another sense of otherness. I know definitely growing up as a Harry Potter fan, I too have felt that otherness, and I think that this is something that other people can relate to, and it’s definitely a reality for a lot of people. So I can see how it can raise some concerns, but I also think that it can be something worth exploring.

Andrew: And I think in the TV series, they could explain why James was bullying Snape better than maybe we see in the book, and then there won’t be potential assumptions about, “Oh, there’s just racial bias going on.”

Evalynda: Definitely, definitely. And I mean, we don’t have to assume that that’s why he’s bullying; it could also just be a hidden undertone. But I still think that it’s something worth exploring.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Yeah, and worth opening up the series to a more diverse cast, because I think what you were saying, Evalynda, was that the series is very white; the Harry Potter movies were very white. They started working on that in Fantastic Beasts; we definitely saw more diversity in… well, even Cursed Child, but also Hogwarts Legacy. They’re finally putting in place a more diverse cast that J.K. Rowling should have put together to begin with.

Evalynda: Yeah, we’ve come a long way. We also have to consider when these books were created, and then where we are now. And I think it would be unfair not to consider, I mean, current context and culture.

Laura: Right. Yeah, honestly, it would make it feel kind of dated, if I’m being real. It would be like, “When was this made?”

Andrew: And what new does the TV series add if it isn’t making some bolder changes? I was talking about this when we were talking about Snape. People were like, “Oh, why don’t they cast Adam Driver? He’d be a perfect Snape.” They just want it a continuation of Alan Rickman’s portrayal.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Take some risks! Change it up a little bit!

Evalynda: Yeah, don’t back down from a challenge.

Eric: Ooh, there’s a good line.

[Ad break]

Evalynda: Our next one comes from Kim, regarding Petunia and Vernon’s upbringing.

“Hi there, MuggleCast friends. I’m so glad I found you. I started listening when you were doing Chapter by Chapter for Goblet Of Fire, and have been listening ever since. I believe you recently talked about whether or not we should feel sorry for Petunia. I think yes, we should feel sorry for her, because I think there is a possibility that she is abused by Vernon, or at least she fears him. He is the one always yelling and dishing out the punishments and threats. Maybe she has to keep the house clean because that is what Vernon expects, like in the movie Sleeping With the Enemy. Petunia comes from a kind family, as seen in Lily. Vernon comes from bullies, as shown in Aunt Marge. It took a lot for Petunia to stand up to Vernon and allow Harry to stay in later books. I’m not saying she is innocent in her behavior to Harry, but maybe there is more to her story.”

Andrew: I think this is a really good observation.

Eric: I will say, there are times in the book when Vernon is fearful of Petunia and what Petunia’s reaction to things might be. The perfect read on how their relationship works and what it looks like probably doesn’t exist, but it’s definitely a very interesting pairing that I don’t find myself often thinking about. What makes them tick?

Micah: I’m curious, given your background, Evalynda, what you think of this dynamic, this relationship.

Evalynda: Yeah, I think that the glimpses that we see don’t tell the whole story, so I think we would need to know more about… I mean, we know a little bit more about Petunia’s motivation, but I see glimpses of perhaps maybe a little bit of emotional abuse, perhaps. But I think that I would have to know a little bit more, if that makes sense, of their relationship dynamic, but I can definitely see it a little bit.

Micah: I think we’ve talked a lot about how Vernon really normalized Petunia’s life after Lily going off and getting into Hogwarts and Petunia being rejected, and then, of course, everything that happened with Lily and James. But it doesn’t mean that Vernon isn’t abusive, as you were saying, verbally, emotionally towards her. Though it does seem like the abuse that he shells out is primarily directed in Harry’s direction, and I think it’s because he represents everything that Vernon stands against, and was raised in a way… we see it in his sister, in Aunt Marge, was raised very much the same way. Anything that doesn’t fall in line with his point of view and his version of normal is considered to be less than, and he does everything in his power to ensure that Harry has an extremely rough upbringing as a result.

Laura: Yeah, because he’s resentful, right? It was very clear that he didn’t want anything to do with that side of Petunia’s family, and then having this kid dropped on his doorstep in the middle of the night after his parents were killed was… I don’t even know if that was an outcome that Vernon could have been paranoid about. Who thinks about that, right?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I also think that there’s probably a part of him that feels like he’s going to get revealed to the rest of the world. Because how much convincing did it likely take initially from Petunia that this world actually existed, that magic was a real thing? Because he seems like somebody that would never concede to that.

Eric: I mean, that’s an interesting question. I think maybe that’s how they managed to bond over their dislike of Harry. Vernon doesn’t like the situation of having to raise this other kid, and Petunia is like, “Well, he’s family, but also, we don’t need to treat him as such, because I hated my sister and resented her. And so there’s this world, it’s absolutely crazy, but I promise I’m not crazy. I don’t like it, and you don’t have to like it either.” And he’s like, “Oh, this sounds good. Let’s abuse this child.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: How long do you think it took Petunia to tell Vernon about Lily and the wizarding world? I just don’t see Petunia sharing that on a first date.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s a fun question.

Eric: There was… oh yeah, like, how long were they dating? Because I think… wasn’t there in assorted additional materials the author wrote that Lily and James probably met Petunia and Vernon at least once and it didn’t go well? And the impression that Vernon got distinctly was that James was looking down at him and/or made fun of him? I think that was written somewhere that that happened, and that’s always kind of been my headcanon, is like, oh, there’s sort of an elitist kind of edge to this relationship, where Vernon resents the fact that James… and you know James would kind of have an air of supremacy about the situation, especially if Lily, for instance, told him in advance, “Hey, they don’t really like wizardkind.”

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: James would see that as a challenge.

Andrew: So in writing on Potter-No-More.com – now HarryPotter.com – the author did write that Petunia and Vernon met James, and the couples fell out. Vernon attempted to patronize James by suggesting that wizards live on unemployment benefits, and grew angry when James told him of the solid gold his parents had in the wizarding bank Gringotts.

Laura: Oof.

Eric: Yeah, because of all that shampoo!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: All that Sleekeazy’s hair potion.

Evalynda: You can definitely see how they align, because it comes from a place of insecurity for both of them, right?

Eric: That’s interesting.

Evalynda: “I’m trying to outshine you because of my own deficiencies,” and I think that’s the one thing that Petunia and Vernon have in common. That’s the one thing that kind of connects them.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: LunarLycan in the Discord said something similar, Evalynda. They said, “Or Vernon loves Petunia very much that when they met, he knew how hurt Petunia is because of her sister, so he’s become overprotective of her.”

Andrew: It’s such a fascinating dynamic.

Eric: Apparently, there’s many ways to read this relationship.

Evalynda: There’s so… that’s why I said that I would definitely need to know more, because there’s so many ways to interpret it. I don’t know if I necessarily see it as overprotection, as more so… sometimes in those type of relationships we fall in line and we dissociate, and we try to put up false pretenses, and we get so far into it, you just kind of keep moving along with it. So I don’t know; I would have to know more.

Andrew: Here’s how the revelation went down, Laura: “She confessed the truth during a tear-stained date, in Vernon’s dark car as they sat overlooking the chip shop where Vernon had just bought them a post-cinema snack. Vernon, as Petunia had expected, was deeply shocked; however, he told Petunia solemnly that he would never hold it against her that she had a freak for a sister, and Petunia threw herself upon him in such violent gratitude that he dropped his battered sausage.”

Eric: I didn’t know this was a whole damn chapter of a book.

Micah: Or a fanfiction. That could go in a totally different direction.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Did you say HarryPotter.com, Andrew? So it’s no longer WizardingWorld.com?

Andrew: Yeah, we talked about this.

Laura: They changed the branding.

Andrew: It was Pottermore, and then WizardingWorld.com, and now it’s HarryPotter.com.

Eric: Yeah, I forgot.

Laura: You know what’s really sad about this? This almost makes me wonder if Petunia loves Vernon because he hates her sister and he chooses Petunia over her sister, and Petunia kind of feels like she’d spent her entire upbringing being second best to Lily.

Eric: Oh, so she’s settling because… that’s interesting.

Evalynda: I can see that, almost like a relationship of convenience. Yeah, and she tolerates him because he chose her. It’s the one person in her life who makes her a priority, in a way.

Eric: Now consider that they’re basically Harry’s parents, for intents and purposes, and Dudley’s mom and dad, and ask why that family has had issues.

Laura: All right, well, we are moving into Order of the Phoenix feedback now, starting with Iris, who wrote in about preparing for Harry’s arrival at Grimmauld Place. Iris says,

“Hi y’all, I was just listening to Episode 679, ‘The Order of the Phoenix.’ You were discussing why the adults didn’t prepare for Harry’s arrival and what to say to him about the status of it all. I was thinking maybe they did, and they have been bickering about in their meetings for the last three days, since they knew Harry would be joining them at Grimmauld Place, but they couldn’t come up with anything they could all agree on. This would explain some of the tension in the room and the way Molly and Sirius suddenly explode. Love the show; thanks as always for the discussions. Iris from Germany (#HufflepuffPride).”

Andrew: I love this theory because it’s clearly a dysfunctional family at Grimmauld Place, and yeah, they are unprepared because they couldn’t all come to an agreement on how to handle Harry once he arrived. Makes sense to me.

Eric: They almost couldn’t even come to an agreement to an agreement to be civil to each other.

Andrew: Yeah, no. Thanks, Iris.

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: We also heard from Ben, who had a question about Seamus Finnigan. He says,

“Hey, MuggleCasters. Based on the episode where you discussed Chapter 11 of Order of the Phoenix, I’d just like to ask ye about Seamus Finnigan. In England you go to secondary school at 11, but here in Ireland you go about 13 or around there. So if Seamus lives in Ireland, what was the excuse they gave to his primary school to say he was no longer going to attend? What do all Irish Hogwarts attendees do about this? Love to hear your thoughts on this, Ben.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I’m wondering… sure, he’s Irish, but I’m wondering if he moved to England with his family, and thus was moving through school differently. I tried to look this up on his Wikipedia. I didn’t really see any information about when he may have moved.

Eric: Yes, it’s all on napkin somewhere you’ve got to look at from the Elephant House.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Wasn’t it confirmed that before kids go to Hogwarts, they’re usually homeschooled?

Eric: I think… well, maybe wizard children are?

Laura: Yeah, no, that’s what I mean, before they go to Hogwarts.

Evalynda: Yeah, so maybe there wasn’t a backstory needed if he was homeschooled.

Eric: Well, it’s interesting because, to Laura’s point, I think, too, how do you just…? Do you disappear from the community? What if the parents are still active members of the community? Their kid is just not… I mean, their kid is very clearly not home, and then also not being taught in any of the schools nearby. Do they always say, “Oh, my son went to boarding school somewhere”?

Laura: Probably? I mean, that’s kind of what the Dursleys do with Harry. They say they’re sending him to St. Brutus’s, whatever. But also, I would think that wizard families and communities… I would imagine that they’re not really invested in the local community that way. They’re not paying property taxes, right?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: So there wouldn’t… there’s not Child Protective Services looking for wizard children, I think.

Eric: Yeah, I just think they can fund the tax man every time he comes to the door to collect.

[Everyone laughs]

Evalynda: Although, there should be CPS in some of these wizarding families.

Eric: Oh, shouldn’t there be? Yes.

Evalynda: The amount of times I would have filed a report on the Dursleys… I mean, they’re not wizarding, but the many reports I probably would have filed, I’m just saying.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Okay, well, now let’s talk about some other definitely very functional families, namely that of the Blacks. This one’s from Katie.

“Hey, MuggleCast! During the most recent chapter discussion, ‘The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black,’ I thought about something that left me frustrated. Throughout the story, when we hear about extended family, they’re almost always dead. The Potters, the Evanses, etc. When looking at the tapestry, Sirius said that Andromeda was his favorite cousin. She’s alive and well. Not only that, her only offspring is ever-present in his home. Why isn’t Sirius connecting more with this part of his family? Especially since his only remaining best friend is getting cozy? Is he not allowed to go visit the Tonks family? Are they not a safe house yet? Why couldn’t Andromeda come to Grimmauld Place? It feels like another example of Dumbledore isolating a troubled person instead of helping provide the support they need. Would love your thoughts; love the show! Katie.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Would Dumbledore do that? Can we really suspect him of doing something like that?

Andrew: Well…

Laura: No.

Eric: Oh, really? I think so. [laughs]

Laura: Oh, sorry. What I meant to say is I can’t see Dumbledore doing this. He does not take that additional half-step to say, “Oh, what could I do to make this person more comfortable right now?”

Eric: Oh, right. What I thought of while reading this was that Sirius is still not… the word of his being a good guy actually is not out yet, so maybe… in certain circles it would be; certainly among the Order it would be, and we know Andromeda is in the Order, at least as of later. But I wonder if maybe Sirius didn’t reach out to his favorite aunt because there was controversy, or maybe just because he’s been so focused on getting Grimmauld Place ready. But I agree; I’d love to have them hang out and have tea together, especially because Tonks sees Sirius on a regular basis.

Andrew: I also think this could very well be something that is happening off page. It’s something we would get on WizardingWorld.com. And we also know Sirius wants to spend a lot of time with his godson, so I think there’s a couple different answers here. But yes, it does seem like this should have been addressed, especially when, like Katie said, Sirius is telling Harry that Andromeda was his favorite cousin, so why don’t you keep in touch, yo? Maybe they write to each other.

Eric: Yeah, maybe.

Micah: Eh…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I feel like given how isolated Sirius was, this would have been a nice way to make him feel a little bit better.

Andrew: Definitely.

Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “Sirius, go see your cousin.”

Andrew: Maybe Dumbledore was planning on giving him permission next book.

Micah: Oops.

[Andrew and Evalynda laugh]

Laura: I could also see how maybe it’s hard for Sirius to try and make those connections. We have to remember all these fond memories he has of very specific people in his family are from quite a while ago when he was a good bit younger, and he’s been through a lot in that time. He’s probably a completely different person now than he was before he went into Azkaban, so I could see it being really tough to pick up relationships with family members who were close to you before all of that happened to you.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Evalynda: I mean, the outside world goes on without you, so I can only imagine the challenge it would be to reconnect due to how people are different. So many things change.

Andrew: Agh.

Evalynda: I know; it’s kind of heartbreaking.

Andrew: That’s a sad thought.

Eric: Probably feels left behind.

Andrew: But a great point, though.

Eric: Don’t mind the sound of my breaking heart.

Evalynda: [laughs] I mean, also, too, I can’t imagine all of the oversight of… there’s so much in the air at Grimmauld Place, so many unsaid things, so many feelings, so many people are going through different things. It’s hard to keep track of everything, so kind of like what Laura was saying, I doubt someone is thinking of that, or thinking of comforting him, or what would make him feel better.

Eric: Here’s an interesting addendum from LunarLycan, who says, “Andromeda is not supposed to show her face before Harry sees Bellatrix; otherwise he will be conflicted.” You remember this happens from the other direction when Harry finally meets Andromeda, and she looks like Bellatrix.

Andrew: Ahh.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: And he’s like, “Wait a minute, that face!” But it’s attached to a nice person.

Andrew: All right, well, we are going to regroup after discussing all these feelings, and when we come back, we’re going to talk about our treatment of Arthur. We’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, so Marta has some thoughts on our feelings on Arthur in recent episodes.

“Hi, MuggleCasters. I’m writing for the first time, as I usually listen on the run and can’t remember all the things I wanted to tell you. I’m now stuck at home with COVID and enjoy some quiet time when someone else tackles my class of 25 7-year-olds.”

Well, glad you’re getting a break, Marta.

Laura: Feel better.

Andrew: Even when, yeah, you’re battling COVID.

“So what I wanted to share is that you have been much too harsh on Arthur in the last episode! I get it that it can help when you are prone to anxiety to have practice runs of things, but not everyone needs them! I couldn’t even imagine having a wedding rehearsal! I hate rehearsing things; it stresses me out more! I actually reread the chapter and Arthur was giving really reassuring vibes. Yes, he was checking the map a lot, but who isn’t if they are traveling on public transport in a new place or rarely? Harry helping him with the money was surely a planned distraction so he would stop thinking about the hearing for a moment. They were at the Ministry super early and everything went really smoothly. Until the hearing got rescheduled, of course, but that wasn’t Arthur’s fault. Maybe it’s my age or my upbringing in an eastern Europe block country in the ’80s, but I often think you exaggerate the security issues of the magical world.”

Eric: What?!

“Being a wizard or a witch comes with risks, just like being a Muggle teenager. You can’t change this. You need your share of disappointments, worrying, stressing, and taking risks! I speak as a teacher and a mum of two nearly-teenagers. Hogwarts is actually quite well protected. Sure, the security fails many times, but remember it is war time (or the years that directly precede the war) and you can’t protect everyone or predict every scenario in such times. Love listening to you guys and sometimes disagreeing quietly. I need to get my daughter, a huge Harry Potter fan too, hooked. It would be good to exchange thoughts with her.”

Andrew: Yes, Marta, please tell your daughter about us.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I love this.

Andrew: Everybody, be nice. Marta has COVID right now.

Eric: Oh, right.

Andrew: We don’t want to stress her out more.

Eric: Ten days from now, write back again.

[Everyone laughs]

Evalynda: Maybe she…

Micah: This was the episode… oh, go ahead.

Evalynda: I was just going to say, she’s in a COVID haze. She doesn’t know what she’s…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, no, no.

Eric: Yes, that’s so forgiving!

Evalynda: I’m just kidding.

Andrew: Brain fog.

[Andrew and Evalynda laugh]

Eric: I have serious respect – this is not a joke – I have serious respect for anyone that thinks we overstate something and tells it to us, so that’s great.

Micah: Yeah, well, and I was going to say that this was the episode where mostly I criticized Arthur. So by now, hopefully Marta’s COVID has long passed, and I do love the fact that she says she loves listening but quietly disagreeing.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think that’s kind of the whole point of doing what we do.

Eric: It is.

Micah: And I just don’t think it would have been fair to analyze that chapter and not criticize some of the things that Arthur was doing, given that he is the adult in the situation.

Eric: I think it was a perfectly fair question. I don’t think we were too mean to him; “Hey, couldn’t there have been a little more prep?” But I also see this perspective, too, and maybe Harry needs those near death experiences to keep his heart pumping.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, and at the end of the day, it’s all a dialogue, right? Even, I mean, on this panel, we disagree with each other all the time.

Eric: No, we don’t. Kidding.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But to your point, Laura, it is a dialogue, and that’s also why we do these Muggle Mail episodes.

Micah: Yeah, these are a lot of good points.

Andrew: Yeah, they are.

Eric: It is just funny to have a few points like that. Like, “Hogwarts is not overly a security nightmare. Arthur Weasley was not lazy.”

Andrew: And you need security nightmares to instill some fear in these kids and teach them some lessons. I actually kind of agree with that. It’s like, a kid doesn’t know what pain is until he trips and falls, or touches a knife or something.

Eric: You’ve got to fall off your bike before you…

Andrew: Right. On the point about Arthur, I did see this theory brought up somewhere right after we had recorded this episode that Marta is referring to, and the theory was that the reason he’s acting so floored by the Muggle world all the time is to make Harry feel more at home about joining the wizarding world. They’re both entering these new spaces, and that helps Harry feel more at home. I thought that was really sweet.

Evalynda: Aw, I love that.

Andrew: Right?

Evalynda: They’re both just trying new things. Oh, and I do agree with the resilience component, right? We do need to expose ourselves to challenges. However, Hogwarts is still a security nightmare. [laughs]

Eric: Look, there’s… yeah, there’s a little bit of risky behavior, and then there’s mortal danger, and the kids are plunged into mortal danger a lot more often than you would think that they should be.

Laura: Yeah, and I will say, what I appreciate about this email is the perspective that it offers, too, because I know when we’re talking about security nightmare, a lot of that is very tongue-in-cheek. We’re having fun with it, and we’re not actually advocating for Hogwarts to be bulldozed and shut down and everything.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Although…

Laura: But I feel like it is really reminiscent of the time in which we’re discussing these books and these issues, because we’ve got to remember these books were coming out in the ’90s. We know the timeline took place… starts in the ’80s with Lily and James, and goes through the ’90s with Harry and friends being at school. And we should just think about how much more dangerous things were when we were kids. Think about the stuff we were allowed to get into. It was a lot more common for kids in our age group to be autonomous during the day; especially in the summer, we would go out and we would hang with our friends, and we would go wherever it was we wanted to go, and it wasn’t a big deal.

Micah: No cell phones.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, no cell phones. No means of contacting our parents.

Andrew: If we were out, we were gone. [laughs]

Evalynda: Until the street light came on.

Eric: My dad talks about playing as a kid in a pile of rubble from a factory, and there was mercury metal, which is a heavy metal that’s very toxic.

Laura: Oh, gosh. [laughs]

Eric: Just open from broken thermometers or whatever, and he’s playing with it.

Micah: Cool.

Eric: It honestly explains a lot.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But yeah, I think there’s also… there’s a point where it’s supposed to be comical. It’s supposed to be a security nightmare because that’s the joke, and the humor of the series and the adventure is that, “Oh no, Harry is…!” So there is that element. But I think what we were going for, I think, in the early days, when this whole security nightmare thing was gaining steam five or six years ago – we just heard that clip on the last Time-Turner – I think it was that as an adult now, we see how much more danger there really was versus when we had the rose-colored glasses of “This is just a fun place to go to school.”

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: That said, none of us are parents, and so to have Marta write in and be like, “You know, as a mom of teens, you’ve got to let them have dangers,” that’s the door swinging the other way, going, “Maybe we are overreacting.”

Micah: But I also think, too, that this email and then the Iris email, it shows that the adults in the series are also fallible, and I don’t know that necessarily on a first read of this series, and when we’re first analyzing this, that that’s something that you pick up on, right? We’re adults now, so as adults, we can see those same missteps that Arthur is making, or that Molly and Sirius and the other members the Order are making in not preparing for Harry to show up, but they’re just as fallible as the rest of us.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Evalynda: Yeah. And I definitely think maybe the kids can see that too. I mean, I do remember even in our own lives, when you come to a point and you realize your parents aren’t perfect.

Eric: Right.

Evalynda: Yeah, it’s right around that age too.

Andrew: Well, we have another email now, and we’re asking Evalynda to read this one. It is a lengthy one, Evalynda.

Evalynda: Okay.

Micah: And if you thought the last one was critical…

Evalynda: I know. Oh my goodness.

[Evalynda and Micah laugh]

Eric: This is good. This is healthy for us. The blood is pounding.

Micah: It is healthy.

Evalynda: Okay. All right, so this one comes from Kneazle Lady on Episode 689.

“After listening to MuggleCast for ages, I was moved to write by SEVERAL comments from this episode. (Sorry!) On the topic of House unity, remember that many classes include students from multiple Houses. If professors wanted to goose up House unity, they would force their students to partner up with members of a different House in their classes. Even if they didn’t do that, spending time with those other House members several hours a week in class seems like a prime opportunity for people to connect/work together. (Just an aside on this topic: I’m thinking of the best and worst matches of Houses for class. The Slytherins often pair with Gryffindor, which makes total sense. I imagine pairing Slytherins with Hufflepuffs might lead to some very tense classroom situations… unfortunately.)

I can’t see Harry either objecting to the way Fred and George experiment on younger students, OR telling Ron and Hermione about the money he gave Fred and George. Remember first under what circumstances he gave the money. Harry ‘won’ the Triwizard that was both rigged for him, and led to the death of another student. He feels the money is tainted, AND he doesn’t need it. Far from believing he’s done a noble thing by giving his friends seed money for their business, he’s inoculating himself and the money against what it stands for. He’s ashamed to have the money, and glad to be rid of it. Telling Ron and Hermione seems out of character for Harry, and also brings back all the issues surrounding how the money came to him in the first place. That’s not somewhere Harry wants to go, especially at the beginning of Order of the Phoenix.

Also, the only way I can see it occurring to Harry to address the use of first-years as test subjects would be for him to go directly to Fred and George. ‘Hey, mate, maybe go easy on the testing when you don’t know the risks, okay?’ What in Harry’s character or past actions provides any evidence that he would (depending on your point of view) narc on his friends, or seek counsel from, say, a teacher about anything?

Finally, Ron the prefect: I agree that Dumbledore gave him the job to help him grow up. However, as with so much else at Hogwarts, there’s no guidance on how to do the job, and certainly none on how to get people your own age and younger to listen to what you have to say. Maybe every prefect should have a prefect from the previous year as a buddy or guide! No, that makes too much sense. Never mind. Love the show!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That’s great. Yeah, like a mentor. I like that idea. Well, and I love the point, too, that Harry won the Triwizard Tournament winnings, but since it was rigged and it led to the death of Cedric, he feels that the money is tainted and that he doesn’t need it, so that was a really good point there. All good points, really. Appreciate the feedback.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: All right, well, now we have some feedback we received on social media. Clara said,

“Hot take: There’s a good case for Harry deserving prefect. Part of being a leader is not being afraid to be assertive and stand up for the little guy. Harry does that more than anyone, starting in Book 1 when he stands up for Neville versus Malfoy.”

Eric: Aw.

Andrew: Realfishchi – something like that – said,

“I loved the coverage, but find you treat Sirius very unfairly. He was unfairly in prison for 12 years without a trial, lost his best friend(s), and then had to be on the run for a year, and now is cooped up and listening to Snape teasing him while being worried about Harry. He never had a proper chance at coping and healing, so Molly’s treatment and comments were way out of line and awful.”

Andrew: And now, this interesting observation from Jennifer: “I heard Hogwarts flying lessons described as equivalent to horse riding lessons at posh boarding schools (making Quidditch like polo, and only those who can afford brooms/horses can compete.”

Laura: Oof.

Andrew: I like it.

Eric: Yeah, this is recent that this idea was brought to us about how exclusive it is, and really loving the discomfort that that brings thinking about it.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s so unfair that you can have an advantage in the game by having a better broom, like we see Lucius buy all the Slytherins the brooms.

Eric: Yeah, this is one of the newest emotions I’ve felt about these books that I’ve read so many times, so I’m really loving it.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I’m like, “Oh, Quidditch is problematic.”

Andrew: And finally, Jenna W. said, “Have you discussed that the wizarding world only has a fifth grade math and reading education? Sure, they can fly a broom, but who balances the books?” Good point.

Eric: What books? Just make more books.

Micah: The goblins.

Eric: Yeah, oh, right.

Evalynda: Good point.

Eric: They’ve outsourced the whole books thing to other races.

Andrew: Well, that’s the math side, but what about reading? Yeah, maybe there’s some extended reading courses. What are those called?

Eric: Their newspapers have pictures, so they don’t…

Micah: That move.

Eric: Yeah, they’ll talk to you, too.

Andrew: It’d be cool if you can point your wand at a book or the Daily Prophet and be like, “Read this to me.”

Evalynda: Oh, I would love that.

Eric: Oh, yeah, like “The cow says…” And then you point your wand and it goes, “Moo.”

[Andrew and Evalynda laugh]

Laura: I feel like something like that must exist.

Evalynda: Could you program it to play different voices as it reads?

Andrew: That would be cool.

Laura: Yeah, it’d be a good idea. I mean, it feels like an accessibility thing. Yeah, I don’t know why they wouldn’t have it.

Eric:Audiobookicus” or something.


Lynx Line


Laura: All right, well, now we are going to move into our Lynx Line, which is our newest benefit on Patreon where we ask a question specifically for our Slug Club level patrons every week to feature their answers on the show. Thank you so much to everyone who supports us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast for answering this week’s question, which is about y’all’s biggest takeaways from Chapters 6 through 12 of Order of the Phoenix. We want to know if you have any additional takeaways that maybe we haven’t talked about on the show, anything that you think we might have completely missed or glossed over. So I’m going to go ahead and dive in with Emily’s response here. Emily says,

“My biggest takeaway has been the relevance to real life, in particular, the way the Daily Prophet is seeking to control information. As silly as it may sound, TikTok is a major source of news and information for a lot of people, and the recent (although brief) ban reminds me a lot of how the Ministry was seeking to control the public. Even more so when TikTok came back and a message was shown thanking a man who wasn’t even president yet. On a separate note – OWLs and all the teachers warning kids about them definitely reminds me of preparing for state testing as a teacher.”

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: Great callouts there, yeah. The TikTok stuff feels… to be honest with you, the timing of Order of the Phoenix right now is just, like, chef’s kiss.

Eric: I thought it was good last time we did this book. It’s even better – worse, question mark? – now.

Andrew: And this is why I personally… I think I speak for everyone when I say this is why we enjoy doing Chapter by Chapter again, because we’re talking about these books and how they relate to our present-day lives as adults in this current world that we live in, so it’s just very interesting to see the different messages that we get out of these books as we age and reread them.

Evalynda: Honestly, it just hits too close to home, but it just shows how we can apply cultural context to how we interpret the books now. Just gives it a deeper meaning.

Eric: Yeah, it’s the mark of a wide enough… the world needed to be wide enough to begin with, or the books needed to be just deep enough to facilitate this type of thing. But they are, and they have been, and so the fact that we go back to this 20 years later and still are finding things speaks to the quality and the depth of the source material.

Evalynda: Definitely.

Eric: Here is a message on our Lynx Line from Rachel, who says,

“My biggest takeaway has to do with the Hogwarts education system and how we don’t actually see much teaching. There’s no ‘I do, we do, you do’ from what we can see…”

I assume that’s a teacher thing.

“… nor is there corrective instruction. Maybe that’s more standard in the UK, especially in the early 2000s, for professors to talk at students rather than to them, but it doesn’t seem like a healthy learning environment. We see McGonagall and Sprout model how to do things, and Lupin, but that may be it. Loving the deep dive coverage, and look forward to each new episode!”

So is that a teacher thing? The “I do, we do, you do”?

Micah: Maybe in the UK it is.

Eric: Well, what strikes me is that I did my first year of college abroad in New Zealand, which is also a British style of education, and it was all lecture-based. Nearly all of it was “Go in this room, sit for an hour,” and if the teacher was good, you would get notes that were what you were going to be tested on. But it was a totally different style than what I’d had up to that point, and so I wonder if it isn’t, in fact, as Rachel is suggesting, that Hogwarts and the more British style is a lot more of that… maybe dry in the wrong hands. Nevertheless, teachers talking at you instead of to you.

Micah: It feels like it builds a little bit off of what we were talking about last week, too, with Snape and his approach to teaching students, and I know I hit on him pretty hard saying that I didn’t think that he was a very good teacher, so Rachel proves my point. Anyway, Jennifer is going to bring us home. She says,

“My biggest takeaways from Chapters 6-12 include the themes of friendship, the introduction of Dolores Umbridge, and the unfairness of the entire trial of Harry. While Harry was rightfully angry and upset by the injustice of his expulsion and being left in the dark of what is happening in the wizarding world, I feel that Dumbledore showed more confidence in Harry right after the Triwizard Tournament. Harry felt isolated from Ron and Hermione, and was jealous of the time they had spent without him. The expulsion and the thought of losing his one true home loomed over him. It takes some time for him to overcome his feelings, but Ron and Hermione stick by him. Now, Dolores Umbridge – what a character. She may be equally as evil as Lord Voldemort, and she isn’t even a Death Eater. She’s the sneakiest wizard in the books. Definitely one of the most polarizing characters introduced in the series. The trial in front of the entire Wizengamot was so over-the-top as to be absurd. Why did the Ministry see fit to intimidate a 15-year-old kid? It was underage magic. Blowing up Aunt Marge had bigger implications than the Patronus. Dudley knew Harry was a wizard; Aunt Marge did not. Just wanted to say that your Chapter by Chapter coverage has been great. Thank you.”

Andrew: Thanks, Jennifer.

Eric: Yeah, I loved hearing that. Similarly, the listener that wrote in and said that she started hearing us during our Chapter by Chapter of Goblet of Fire. That was so recently! People are still finding us, and they still find what we do exciting.

Andrew: I know. Warms our hearts. [imitating Dumbledore] “After all this time.” Yeah, and I think reading some of Jennifer’s thoughts reminds me that – getting back to a point I was making – when we get older I think some of these things that Jennifer was bringing up outrage us a lot as we get older. It’s like, “Well, I’m an adult now. I can’t imagine being this way to a child.” Whereas when we were a child, maybe we could have expected it more, simply because we didn’t know what it was like to be an adult. So now we’ve seen both; we’ve lived both sides of this experience – as a reader, at least.

Eric: [laughs] Right, we’re looking backwards at these adults in the books going, “That’s not how you adult.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: As if we know, but we have more of a foothold on it than we used to.

Andrew: Right, right. And how we’d like to think how we know how we would treat children, and it’s better than how Harry and company are being treated in this book and other books, like with Snape, too.

Micah: But that does it for the feedback. Always enjoy these episodes.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s fun to get everybody’s feedback. And thanks, Micah, for rounding up the feedback, and thank you, listeners, for submitting so much great feedback. Even if we didn’t read yours today on air, we do read it all behind the scenes, and like I said, we do love receiving and reading all of it. And don’t forget, concerning the Lynx Line – the little segment we just did there – you can participate in that benefit every week by becoming a member at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. It’s one of many perks on our Patreon, and your support is a huge help. And if you have any feedback about today’s discussions or any future Chapter by Chapter discussions, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, we’ll get back to Chapter by Chapter; we’ll dive into Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Detention with Dolores.” Eugh.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Quizzitch is taking a break this week; it’ll be back next week. Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four MuggleCasters. Coming soon on What the Hype?!, we’ll discuss the newest season of Outlander, and talk about cozy video games, and over on Millennial, we’re discussing the early moves by the Trump administration, and discussing things we were told as kids that turned out to be lies. Food pyramid, anyone? Remember the classic food pyramid?

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: Or being told that if you swallowed gum, it was going to stay in your stomach for seven years?

Eric: I’m still waiting for that gum tree.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Free gum, everybody.

Andrew: These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years, and there’s many great ways to help us out. I brought up a couple of them today. MuggleMillennial.etsy.com is where you can find the MuggleCast beanie and socks in a combo pack for their lowest price yet. Let us help you stay warm this winter, and you’ll also be helping the show. Apple Podcasts subscribers can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast every week, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And I’ve mentioned the Patreon a couple times, so I won’t get into the details again, but Evalynda, thank you so much for being a supporter of MuggleCast for many years now. And thank you so much for all of your thoughtful analysis today.

Evalynda: Thank you guys for having me. This has truly been something special, so thank you.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: Oh, thank you. Well, listeners, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and we would appreciate a five star review in your favorite podcast app; that helps us spread the word as well. Last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. All right, thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Evalynda: And I’m Evalynda.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #689

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #689, A Case of the Mondays (OOTP Chapter 12, Professor Umbridge)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And crack open a bag of your favorite biscuits and pull up a comfy chair and a cup of tea, because this week we’re discussing Chapter 12 of Order of the Phoenix, “Professor Umbitch.” Bridge, sorry.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Umbridge. Apologies.

Eric: It’s all right, Andrew. I know you took a few weeks off; you’re a little…

Andrew: Off my Roker, yeah. Off my Al Roker.

Micah: The wrong show. We do not say those words on the show.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, credit where credit’s due; I’ve heard Kierra Lewis on Instagram refer to her as “Umbitch” quite a bit, and I had to throw that in.

Eric: Okay, if Kierra Lewis says it, we can.

Andrew: [laughs] If it’s a word in the Harry Potter books, we can say it on the show. That’s my rule of thumb.

Eric: Ahh, that’s your go-to rule every time for that word.

Andrew: Well, before we get into this week’s chapter, since we are Flooing into a new decade for the show, we could really use your support while we go chapter by chapter through the books and as we cover any and all news concerning the Harry Potter TV show. It does start filming this summer. I got a text from my sister, by the way, this morning; she said, “How’s the Harry Potter TV show?” I said, “Girl, it’s filming this summer. We’ve still got some time to go, but check in in a couple years.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: You should have told her it’s great.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: “Go to HBO Max…”

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: And she’ll just keep sending you texts. “Andrew, what do you mean? I can’t find it. I keep searching for it.”

Eric: Yeah, tell her you’ve seen the whole first season but you’re sworn to secrecy.

Laura: I like how we’re encouraging Andrew to bully his sister.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: What have we become?

Eric: No, no…

Andrew: Lie. Well, word is getting around about the TV show; that was my big takeaway.

Micah: Clearly she cares.

Andrew: Yes, yes. Doesn’t ask me how the show is – our show – just asks how the Harry Potter TV show is.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: Does she ask how you are?

Andrew: Um, sometimes. But anyway…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Well, there you go.

Eric: I do love those random… no, I get texts from my sister too. They’re always tangentially… she saw something about Harry Potter and wants to ask about it. “Okay, I am also well, thank you.”

Andrew: My sister did tell me, after she asked me this, that she is going to start reading Book 1 to her class – she’s a fifth grade teacher – later this year. Isn’t that sweet?

Laura: That’s so sweet.

Andrew: And that’s how I was introduced to Harry Potter, so it’s kind of a full circle moment.

Laura: That is.

Andrew: My fourth grade teacher, yeah.

Eric: Andrew, you should guest read. You should show up to read a special chapter.

Andrew: Oooh. I love that idea.

Laura: And the kids are going to be like, “Who are you?” [laughs]

Eric: No, I bet one of the fifth graders is going to be like, “Andrew Sims from MuggleCast?! I’ve wanted to meet you my whole life!”

Andrew: [laughs] I was going to say, I’ll promote the pod right there, and these kids will be like, “A, what’s a podcast? And B, why are you promoting it?”

Eric: “We need fresh listeners.”

Laura: Yeah. I don’t want to get your sister in trouble either, because we say the B word on this show sometimes.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, it’s true. Now we can’t do that.

Micah: I can see some full circle moments coming for Andrew with his nephews when the TV show comes out. I want to see pictures of you sitting there watching it with them.

Andrew: That would be sweet, yeah. Well, anyway, like I was saying, the Harry Potter TV show does start filming this summer. There’s going to be lots to talk about as casting continues, so stay tuned, everybody. Make sure you’re subscribed to MuggleCast anywhere you listen or watch, and like I said, we could really use your support, so visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to support us financially, and you’ll enjoy instant access to lots of great benefits. One of those benefits is twice monthly bonus MuggleCast installments, where we have fun talking about different aspects of the Harry Potter fandom outside of Chapter by Chapter. And this week – by popular demand, we’re bringing this theme back – would you date a witch or wizard? Part two. Who are we, us four on the panel, going to invite out on a date in the wizarding world?

Eric: I can’t wait, Andrew, for you to reveal that you have very low self-esteem again, and that you’re looking forward to a relationship being all one-sided, and that you don’t have a high degree of confidence that it’ll work out. Just like the first time.

Andrew: [laughs] I’ve found somebody I can date in the wizarding world who I think has similarly low levels of confidence, who would want to date a Muggle like me.

Eric: Oh, I love that. You kept yourself a Muggle in this scenario? I think I did the bonus wrong, okay.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Okay, we’ll work on that.

Micah: You can be a late bloomer, Eric. You’ll be a late bloomer.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Oh yeah, kind of like Hogwarts Legacy, where you’re just miraculously a fifth year. It’s just showing up. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I liked that. I thought that was cool.

Laura: Oh yeah, for sure.

Eric: It was good.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: Well, anyway, now it’s time to dive into Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Professor Umbridge.” Eric, take us back in time first.

Eric: Okay, we last discussed this chapter in the first week of January of 2020 on MuggleCast 448, titled “Have a Biscuit.” Gee, I wonder why. And here is an audio clip where we’ll play two clips, because this was actually… this was an episode of many firsts.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 448.

Laura: It’s not as bad as reading this chapter for the first time, and from an American perspective, be like, “Why does McGonagall have biscuits in her office?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Was she just at KFC?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Was she just at Bojangles? Was she just at Popeye’s? Yeah, that was what I was thinking.

Andrew: Oh my God, yeah. Embarrassingly, even reading this today, I’m not thinking about cookies. I’m thinking about KFC biscuits.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Southern style.

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Andrew: Give some specific details; they deserve that because one of their fellow students died, and one way to cope with this is to know the truth so they can begin to move on. Because then all these students are probably wondering like, “Well, what did happen? And can that happen to me here at Hogwarts? This place that is a security nightmare?”

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That is the new clip created by our listener Lyndon. Thank you, Lyndon, for that little sound effect thing. [laughs]

Micah: I like that.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: So that’s a big episode. That was the debut of the security nightmare clip, it sounded like. Wow.

Eric: Absolutely.

Micah: So what clip is debuting on this episode?

Andrew: Uh… [laughs] Nothing.

Laura: Oh, it’s a lot of pressure.

Eric: Pass it forward; I have to come up with a sound effect by the end of the episode. [laughs]

Andrew: Micah can come up with an Umbitch sound effect for us.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Um-biiitch. How was that?

Andrew: There you go. That works, sure.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So let’s crack into it, ladies and gents. And first we want to talk about the worst Monday Ron has ever seen, according to him. There really are a lot of… there’s a lot going on. Harry is not happy. We know this is kind of a downer chapter, and his anger, which has always been closer than usual to boiling over since the book started, is going to be let loose to some extent. But let’s talk about some other things I’ve identified as missed opportunities: Number one, inter-House unity gets a shout-out again. We talked about how the Sorting Hat’s song last week really encouraged groupthink and coming together, but it seems like, especially with the stuff that happened with Seamus at the end of the chapter – and now Lavender is on it, too, Hermione says, where she doesn’t really believe Harry… I just feel like it would have been a shame – going back to the graveyard; that comes up in this chapter – and all because of this, Hogwarts was supposed to be unified with one champion, but because of Cedric Diggory and Harry both being chosen, they were hugely divided. And now that this thing has come up with Voldemort in the mix, and the Ministry is saying Harry is a liar, anyone that wasn’t already super pro-Harry is now taking that as a pass to be awful to Harry to his face. And so it’s a real shame to see not only is Gryffindor House divided, but none of the Houses seem at all close to where they could be, where the Sorting Hat wants them to be, where Hermione could want them to be. How do we fix this?

Laura: Ooh, I think it’s tough, because Harry is in his fifth year at Hogwarts, and the vast majority of the student body has really only ever heard, I mean, legends of what he’s done and what he’s been up to, so nobody’s really gotten to sit in the passenger seat with Harry anytime he’s gone up against Voldemort or to know the real reason why Sirius Black is now running free, except Dumbledore. That’s basically it. So I think this is actually the preface in a lot of ways, one, to addressing the unity issue – to your point, Eric – but two, giving people that in to feel like they’re in the know, and that’s why the DA is needed here. This very much feels like a precursor moment to Hermione taking the initiative to form the DA, because I think a lot of the school is feeling in the dark, and they’ve only had the Daily Prophet and the Ministry perspective to fill in the gaps for them, because no one else is doing it.

Eric: I think you’re talking about, too, the benefit of having a single enemy, a common enemy.

Andrew: The unity has to start from the top. And you have teachers at Hogwarts – namely Snape and now Umbridge – who are just total bullies to the students, and you’re not going to get school unity when you have teachers like that there who are bullying the kids, because it just encourages the other kids to bully them as well.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Micah: And inter-House unity seems like something that would happen over time. Especially in the younger years, it makes sense that you would spend time with your Housemates, but as you grow older and you meet other students from other Houses, friendships develop. We start to see that a little bit; clearly Ginny has formed a friendship with Luna at some point prior to this point. So the big question for me, though – and I think, Andrew, you’re getting at this too – is the school even set up for this? You think about the House Cup; you think about the Quidditch Cup. There’s no Hogwarts Quidditch team; there’s Quidditch teams for each individual House. There’s the Sorting, which is the very starting point for dividing up these students so that for the next seven years, they know that they are going to be pitted against these other students in order to win the House Cup.

Eric: Well, it’s okay, because the Sorting Hat regrets its job to divide people.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, and it starts before they even get to Hogwarts. Think about when Harry encounters Draco at Madam Malkin’s in Book 1…

Eric: Ugh.

Laura: … and Draco says something to him like, “Oh, if I got Sorted into Hufflepuff, I’d leave, wouldn’t you?”

Andrew: [laughs] It probably starts in the family home as well. If your parents were Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, whatever, you’re going to want your kid to get in that House too, and you’re going to be rooting for them and cheering them on to do well in that House and get House points.

Eric: Yeah, I think isn’t Neville stressed that he’s not going to be Sorted at all? He’s going to be kicked out?

Andrew: Aww, Neville.

Eric: I agree with that so much, of there’s that pride that comes from being all in Gryffindor as a family, or all in Slytherin as a family. And on the other hand, I think the upside to being Sorted is that it does give you a built-in home. It gives you a built-in community that is much more your speed, I think, to your point of it being easier when you’re younger to keep a smaller group. But as you get older, there should be these opportunities. And I love the idea, Andrew, that it’s structural; it pretty much starts with the teachers pushing unity on people, and then also…

Andrew: Starts at the top.

Eric: Yeah, it really does. So I think this is a great question.

Micah: Well, because they have loyalty to their Houses as well. It’s not just the kids; it’s in many cases presumably the teachers who are at the heads of each of these Houses were in these Houses, so of course, there’s a huge loyalty factor there as well.

Laura: I think there is value, especially at this age, of inspiring a team mentality, getting people to collaborate and learn how to work on a team and learn how to form that microcosm of a community. Kind of like when you do go to college, and if you’re doing the living on the college campus type experience, it’s kind of like adulting with training wheels, in a way. [laughs] I feel like that’s what the intent behind this is, but unfortunately, humans very easily devolve into sports team mentalities where it’s like, “My team is better and more superior to everyone else’s team, and therefore we can do whatever we want,” or, “Therefore we’re the best Quidditch players,” or, “We are the bravest or the most pure of blood,” or whatever. So that’s the problem here, is that people, they take it too far, I think. There comes a point where it’s like, “Yeah, you won the House Cup last year. Good for you. Why do we have…?”

Eric: “Did you like that Hogwarts House before they won the House Cup?”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Otherwise… yeah, we’re going to talk about Ron later. [laughs]

Laura: Right, right.

Micah: But the point, though, about that you brought up, Laura – about the DA – I think is a good one, because it’s the first time we really do see the Houses come together in any way. There’s no official programming otherwise that I can think of at Hogwarts that does that. Why?

Eric: And it’s almost as a side effect. It’s not like the stated goal of the DA is to unite people in friendship; it’s to train them up because the services at Hogwarts are so deficient.

Andrew: Well, and to answer your question, Micah, why now? Why is there this inter-House unity now? I guess you could argue it’s this… sure, the trio are fifth years now, but it is this relatively fresh blood entering the school and having new perspectives and new ideas, whereas the people who run the school have been there an eternity and they don’t even think about making any changes.

Eric: Yeah, it really has to come from, I think, a need. People have to want to organize, and that’s where having a common enemy, such as the titular character, comes into play. Let’s talk about play now, and how Fred and George are playing with all of these students in Gryffindor. I’m pretty sure that at the end of the last book, when Harry gave his gold to Fred and George with the lofty hope that they’d start their joke shop, he was not expecting those very same Galleons to be offered to students in exchange for their wellbeing and health and safety, because Fred and George have a notice up saying, “Gold in your pocket! Let us use you as our test subjects for this thing.” And we have Ron’s reaction. Hermione is encouraging him to do something about it; they’re prefects, etc., etc. Ron is shy, doesn’t want to do it. But there’s not a moment from Harry where… Harry seems uncomfortable, but it’s not like he’s actually going to say, “Hey, when I gave you these Galleons, I didn’t want you to actually do this with them.”

Laura: Well, is it possible that they didn’t actually use the funding that Harry gave them, but they actually use some of the revenue they’ve generated? Because we know that they already had a mail order service, so they’ve already been making some sales. They’ve already been profiting. So was it their seed money that Harry gave them? Or was it the profits they’ve started making?

Eric: Okay, you provided reasonable doubt. I no longer am weirded out by this.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: But it’s wrong, ultimately, what they’re doing.

Laura: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Eric: What 15-year-old doesn’t want extra pocket change? And where are the safety guardrails? You know Fred and George… you trust them kind of as long as you’re in their House, but not to let you die.

Andrew: And to build on Laura’s point, maybe they are already doing well with the business, because they bought Ron a new pair of dress ropes, right? He says in this chapter.

Laura: That’s true.

Andrew: So maybe they got some extra money to spare. I can’t see them taking Harry’s money and then just passing it along to Ron. That seemed extremely generous of them, unless they were generating a lot of money. Maybe they thought, “Hey, let’s help out Harry’s bestie, since Harry helped us.”

Micah: I thought that was a stipulation of them getting the money at the end of the last book.

Laura: Yeah, that’s what Harry told them.

Andrew: Oh, really? Oh, okay. I forgot about that.

Eric: Which part?

Micah: Getting Ron new dress robes.

Eric: Oh, I see, I see, I see. So they begrudgingly went and did that, I guess.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, speaking of begrudgingly, I do think if Harry said something to them, they would begrudgingly listen to him. He’s their sugar daddy, after all.

Eric: [laughs] And the sugar is going to dry up if you displease him.

Micah: And I do think Harry, deep down, probably feels a sense of responsibility for what Fred and George are doing in this particular moment. Sure, he might not be directly responsible for the testing being done, but he is responsible for the money that was given to Fred and George, which now has led to the testing being done, and so there’s probably a part of him that does feel a level of responsibility. The other thing I wanted to bring up here – and we see this as a theme throughout this chapter – it is really a strong commentary on how standardized testing and certain grades – or in our case, maybe majoring in a certain field – don’t necessarily determine your career path. We see that develop with Fred and George throughout the course of this book; they talk about their talents being useful elsewhere, and Fred and George aren’t the only example of this that come up in this particular chapter.

Eric: That’s a fair point.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think this is also setup for a later chapter in this book, “Careers Advice.” And some moments in these books just stick with you over time, and I still remember reading the “Careers Advice” chapter in which Harry starts talking with McGonagall about his future, and I was like, “Wow, these kids are growing up. They are… this is really entering into adult territory now.” And the other thing I wanted to bring up here was that I just wish Harry brought up to Ron and Hermione the gift to Fred and George. It’s his money; he can do what he wants with it. And Ron and Hermione, dare I say, might even like to hear this so, to Micah’s point, they know that Harry has some sway over Fred and George, and Harry could kind of be the prefect he maybe wanted to be after all. He gets to reprimand Fred and George.

Eric: They can deputize Harry to go and tell them to… and rein them in.

Andrew: Right, and then Ron is like, “Oh, thank God, I don’t have to do it.”

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Oh, Ron would not have a heart attack anymore. I feel like it would only make Harry look good if he were honest about it and tell Hermione and Ron. Hermione might scoff at the legality or whatever, probably for good reason. But just knowing that Fred and George are on the loose – we don’t know how they got any money, we don’t know how we’re going to rein them in – is a worse position to be in overall. And honestly, Harry could do with people seeing him do nice things, or even his friends, because he’s kind of been a terror to his friends and continues to be.

Laura: Yeah, but I mean, the whole school basically hates him right now, and I feel like the last thing he wants to do is be branded a narc, which is basically what would happen there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And that’s like death.

Laura: Yeah. Also, I don’t think that Harry… maybe he doesn’t approve of these methods for sure that Fred and George are going about it, but I don’t think he’s losing any sleep over it. I don’t think he thinks about it a lot. He’s got other stuff on his mind, like Voldemort’s mind, literally.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: He’s got Voldemort’s mind on his mind. I love that; that’s a good way of putting it.

Andrew: I do wonder, though, if McGonagall/Dumbledore appointing Ron as a prefect was a way to help develop Ron as an adult. Force him to grow up a little bit.

Eric: Yeah. If it is, he’s not taking the bait. Ron all but throws in the towel in this chapter about being responsible for Fred and George, about doing anything on his own for classes. We’re going to talk about it, but it’s just crazy. So yes, another missed opportunity is Ron having any semblance of being… of wanting to do his own work for his own merit. He flat-out tells Hermione in this chapter that she will be responsible for his and Harry’s bad grade if she doesn’t give them her notes, because Ron is feeling overwhelmed and he doesn’t like the caseload. Fred and George have laid it on thick about “Every day will be this awful with homework”; he believes them. And I don’t know, I just… I think that’s such bull to say that to Hermione, and it shows the lack of growth, the complete and utter vacuum where Ron would have, I think… I would hope by 15 you would have gained not only passions and subjects that you like enough to do the homework on your own without complaint, but just a general sense of personal responsibility that would mean that you wouldn’t always be relying on somebody like Hermione to GPT it for you.

Laura: Yeah. I think, though, Hermione has kind of made Ron comfortable in this way over the last few years.

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: And that’s not her fault. I am in no way saying that it’s her fault; it’s just the dynamic that evolves between people all the time, especially if you have one friend who is really academically inclined and one who isn’t. I think it’s happened to most of us at some point. But I think Ron is… he’s kind of conditioned himself to assume that that’s just something he gets because he’s friends with Hermione, and I don’t know if Ron being one of the younger of seven siblings… I don’t know that he maybe has the same level of preparedness in terms of his maturity. I don’t think that he’s ever been put in a position before now where he was actually responsible for something, and he’s probably really overwhelmed. How would Ron know how to be responsible for something? I don’t think… and it’s not his fault; I just don’t think he ever has been.

Eric: That’s kind of a fair point, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a good call-out because I think about… let’s say somebody starts taking up a chore in the house, somebody else besides yourself, or somebody starts doing something for you here in the real world, and then if they stop doing it, you get so used to that person taking care of something, it’s like, “Ew, now I have to do it? I don’t want to do that.” So that makes a lot of sense. I thought maybe it was just some early onset senioritis for Ron.

Laura: Well, probably that too. [laughs]

Eric: Well, I read this chapter and I go, “Are you kidding me, Ron? You don’t want to do any work?”

Micah: But he’s been enabled.

Eric: Well, right, and coddled even by magic alone. I didn’t learn how to…

Micah: Well, by Hermione, too, the fact that she has shown up to do this for him the last four years. She is partly responsible for this.

Eric: Yeah, I do agree that in this chapter where she says, “What would it be like if I stopped doing your homework? What if I just stopped doing it?” is kind of too little too late, right, on that? It’s not a serious, I guess, threat, and so Ron doesn’t treat it as such. But I do agree he’s been coddled pretty much his whole life. I mean, even now, they aren’t doing their own laundry. The house-elves are cleaning up after them. There’s so many things…

Andrew: They’re not cooking.

Eric: Yeah, right, not cooking, not having… there’s so many elements of personal responsibility that aren’t getting done that for Ron to just throw in the towel… well, that also shows, to throw in the towel on academics, what else is he going to do? Just live at Hogwarts? Just eat and breathe and that’s going to be all he puts effort into?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s pretty wild.

Micah: He’s a prefect now; it doesn’t matter. Do what he wants.

Eric: Yeah, great pick for prefect, Dumbledore.

Andrew: Well, that’s probably another reason he’s got a chip on his shoulder like he does. He’s kind of on top now, at least within his House.

Eric: When Dumbledore made him prefect, it should have been like, “Listen, Mr. Weasley, I have full faith in you to actually do something.” And Ron would want to please Dumbledore all year. It’d be useful.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “And stand up to your brothers, damn it. Come on.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Your brothers are going too far.”

Eric: Speaking of Ron, let’s just get this out of the way. He completely bombs Harry’s would-be interaction with Cho.

Micah: Ugh.

Eric: This is the second time in as many days that Cho Chang has tried to get Harry in a conversation. The first time he was covered in Stinksap in the carriage. The second time he’s thrilled to not be that, but Ron just comes straight after Cho and starts demanding from her proof of her loyalty to the Tornadoes Quidditch team, and it’s so… I wouldn’t say it’s out of character, but it’s so forceful that it not only catches Cho off-guard, catches Harry off-guard, but it puts a bad taste in Cho’s mouth and she leaves. And it’s not really serving anyone here to be this way; it just serves as another way for Harry to kind of be disappointed in his friends.

Micah: Can I say, though, I did think for a very brief second that Ron was going to show some maturity here? He looked like he was coming in as a really great wingman, and then everything completely fell out from underneath him.

Eric: Oh no.

Micah: I do think he was trying to normalize the conversation, to diffuse the tension between Harry and Cho by asking about something they all liked in Quidditch…

Eric: Oh, okay.

Micah: … but then it became antagonistic, and Ron was shouting, and… yeah, not good.

Laura: I just think Ron is gatekeeping here for a couple of reasons. One, he’s gatekeeping Quidditch, but he’s also gatekeeping Harry. Cho… he may not even think this intentionally or consciously, but Cho is competition.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: I mean, Harry is going to be spending a lot of time with her soon, and I have to imagine that makes Ron a little jelly.

Micah: Well, and let’s not forget, Cho didn’t treat Harry… well, she didn’t treat him poorly, but she rejected him in the last book, so maybe part of that’s in Ron’s mind too.

Laura: Yeah, he’s like, “Oh, she said no to my bestie, and she claims she’s a Tornadoes fan? I don’t think so.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Fake fan. Yeah, “I’m going to come at her about Quidditch right now.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s certainly all possible, I think.

Andrew: I’ll take that as an excuse because reading this, I was just so embarrassed for Ron, just the way he was behaving so aggressively towards Cho.

Laura: Well, it’s also a thing with… I’m not going to paint with a broad brush here, but it can be a gender dynamic in the realm of sports fans, where there are men sometimes, men and boys, who will challenge women and girls who say that they’re really into a certain sport or they follow a certain team, and immediately launch into quizzing them about every piece of trivia they can think of to be able to disprove, like, “You’re not as big of a fan as I am.”

Andrew: That makes sense, yeah.

Laura: Sports are not the only place where that kind of gatekeeping happens. It happens in fandom; we’ve all seen it.

Eric: “Oh, you like this band? Name five of their songs.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And Laura, maybe there’s some jealousy there, too, because we know how great of a Quidditch player Cho is, and Ron himself still trying to make it onto the Quidditch team.

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: Yup.

Eric: Well, here’s the thing: You just don’t… think of all the ways in which Ron fawned over Viktor at first before he was a romantic threat. Cho is an upperclassman. If she’s good at Quidditch, why can’t Ron think, “Oh, I have to learn something from her. I have to…” Why doesn’t he look at her reverently at all? And it might be for some of these other reasons, like Laura suggested – maybe he’s threatened, maybe he knows that she rejected Harry, whatever, whatever – but she’s also an upperclassman. I had to look this up to be sure, and yeah, she’s a year older than them. And I don’t know, I just… given that Ron doesn’t talk to girls, especially girls he doesn’t know, this all seemed very surprising to say the least. And it’s disappointing for Harry, who was looking forward to, I think, just something positive to happen to him because he’s having a bad day.

Laura: Yeah, I know. His friends are really not helping him out here. Neville with the Stinksap, and then Ron with this.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And it is a red flag, especially when you’re that age, if you’re talking to a boy that you like and his best friend comes up, and his best friend is a huge jerk. Immediate red flag where it’s like, “Ooh, maybe this guy isn’t as cool or nice as I thought he was, if he’s friends with that.”

Micah: Yep.

Eric: So we also talked a little bit at the beginning of this chapter about getting some teachers that would help with inter-House unity. We also could do with some teachers who, I don’t know, engage in a positive way with their students at all. We are put through double History of Magic, Divination lessons… all of the bad. Potions… all of the bad classes happen on this first day back. And there’s even a point where it says in the book in History of Magic that it could have been a good lesson in another teacher’s hands. And I think who teaches a subject has… the interest in the subject has everything to do with the content as well as who’s teaching it, and it’s just not it. Binns is not it. And Snape…

Micah: This reminds me of the Lynx Line from last week.

Andrew: Yeah, I was thinking of that too.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: Yeah, there was a lot of hate for History of Magic in particular.

Andrew: But also, somebody came to the defense of History of Magic and admitted they were a history nerd and said there was a way to more dynamically present this information, I think.

Laura: Yeah, well, they came to the…

Eric: Then we took them out back and we dunked them in the pool until they stopped saying that.

Andrew: [laughs] Aww, no, history is cool.

Laura: It is. No, they came to the defense of the concept of a history class, but Professor Binns’s teaching method, not so much, and I think that’s what’s at issue here.

Eric: I mean, can you imagine maybe a…? I wanted to say a film professor or something doing giant wars, or a theater professor doing giant wars? Come on. Remember those classes that weren’t theater classes, but we ultimately read a short play about something, or had to reenact scenes? Just different dynamic ways of exploring a subject matter would be really cool, even just as simple as “Get up, class. Half of you are Switzerland. Half of you are Romania.”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, getting the kids literally moving physically is probably important, too, to prevent them from falling asleep. In fact, I remember one of my history teachers in high school used to say, “You kids have tired blood. You’ve got to move around more. You have tired blood.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “That’s why I run three miles every morning” or something like that.

Eric: Tired blood!

Andrew: That always stuck with me.

Eric: Well, Binns doesn’t have to worry about that. He doesn’t need to get his heart rate up.

Andrew: Right, he got no blood.

Eric: He’s just there existing.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: This is the wizarding world, though. The person – I forget who it was – last week who said, “Bring in some ghosts who actually participated in some of these history events.” That would be so cool.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I would go so far as to say I think History of Magic could be the best class at Hogwarts for those types of reasons, possibly. I mean, it’s what, “Those who are doomed to repeat history don’t study it”? Honestly, that alone should cause people to be interested in finding new ways to teach history, so that it sinks in. Anyway, going further about the classes, it looks like… I mean, we finally see Professor Umbridge and her class, and I just don’t think that this is going to be an improvement over the previous years of Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers, which, I think really, Lupin was the best one.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And to touch on Snape real quick, too, he says to Harry that he can’t read, which I think is a really… here he goes again being a you-know-what. But it’s an interesting comment to make ahead of Half-Blood Prince, when Harry is relying on Snape’s Potions book. Is that a bit of a foreshadow alert?

Eric: I love the idea of that.

Laura: I’ll accept it.

Micah: He can read quite well, actually.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Micah: It’s just such an inappropriate moment on Snape’s part.

Andrew: I know.

Micah: And you wonder how closely was Snape actually watching Harry throughout this entire class? Because to know that he missed something on the third line… I mean, that could just be his proficiency at Potions, but it’s just…

Eric: The third line has two parts to it, but Snape didn’t do 3a and 3b the way that you should.

Andrew: [laughs] And you feel bad for Harry, because Harry, when Snape asks him about it, immediately realizes his mistake, and I believe he says, “His heart sank.” And I think we’ve all been there in school; maybe we had a really difficult time on the test, or we get the grades back and they aren’t what we expected. We have those heart-sinking moments in school. And here’s Snape putting him on blast in front of his fellow students, and it sucks. It’s mean.

Micah: And I do like the point you raised about the Half-Blood Prince’s book, because if you actually have a good teacher, you can get students to have good results. And certainly some students need a little bit more attention than others, but this makes me actually question how good Snape is at… we know he’s good at Potions, but in terms of him effectively teaching his students, I don’t think he’s very good.

Eric: Well, not only that, but we have always heard that Snape favors Slytherin House, so you would expect everyone in Slytherin by now to have been given that personal one-on-one time that he so withholds from the other students. But no, Goyle and Crabbe have just as bad potions, if not worse, than anyone else.

Micah: Right, wouldn’t you want to invest in your own students in your own House to ensure that they are good, at least at the subject that you’re responsible for teaching?

Eric: Exactly, it’s not enough to single out Harry and say, “Look how bad this potion is.” There should be a Slytherin wall of students that continuously get the best potions, and at least then it would show that he’s teaching anyone this.

Micah: Right. Yeah, it’s not Neville is stupid; Seamus is stupid; Crabbe is stupid; Goyle is stupid; Harry is stupid. It’s like, “No, Severus. You suck at teaching.”

Eric: Well, and questioning whether Harry can read in front of the class… it’s easily disproven. Of course he can read; you have to read in all the other classes. But it’s just mean! There’s no reason for it. There’s no academic purpose that this could possibly serve.

Micah: And sorry, Andrew. I’m sure he’s a great lover.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s a tease for bonus MuggleCast today.

Eric: Oh my God, you didn’t.

Andrew: But Ariane Beth, who’s listening live on our Patreon right now, says, “Snape’s bad teaching methods transfer from Potions to Occlumency. He makes all the same mistakes in both classes. If this had been addressed sooner, those lessons might have been more successful.”

Laura: Good call.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: He’s not a good teacher. But a great lover.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Now, can I ask a quick question, though, about the DADA professors? Eric, I know you said you feel like Lupin is at the head of the list up until this point. How would we rank our DADA professors thus far? I have Lupin, I do agree, but then I would say imposter Moody, Quirrell, and then Lockhart. I think Lockhart is just bottom of the barrel.

Eric: Well, I think you have to rank them… there’s only one way to rank them truly, which is how much damage they did, and that puts Moody into contention for me because he did actively use Unforgivable Curses on them for months, actually, and that has to have… they have to be worn down psychically or some other way from that experience. Lupin is the exact ideal of the stuff we just talked about with Snape. He listens. He knows every student’s individual story and wants and needs. He takes time to get to know them. He caters to them. He cares about them! So between the two of them – or between Lockhart, who didn’t care and also continuously put his students at risk and was under-equipped to handle any emergencies should they arise – that’s the spectrum who you’d put… I mean, Quirrell as a teacher was probably good. You don’t hear any complaints about the course, but Harry had him in his first year, so you really don’t know what his…

Micah: We didn’t spend a whole lot of time with him, either.

Laura: No.

Eric: Barely anything, if anything. I think it was just one of those check a box and say what the subject was on Monday, but it really doesn’t… you don’t get a sense what his higher level classes were. I’m thinking because he was a Ravenclaw and seemed academically pretty sound, it was probably a decent class, but I imagine it being dry, kind of like the scene we get in the movie with him just muttering something.

Laura: Yeah. Am I misremembering that Quirrell taught Muggle Studies before he came back and taught Defense Against the Dark Arts?

Eric: I think you’re right.

Andrew: I think that’s right.

Micah: That’s right.

Laura: Yeah, so I wonder if he was even equipped to be teaching that course.

Eric: Typically, I think when reading this chapter… because we spend so much time with Harry. We see Harry flip out on Umbridge; Harry gets all of the attention. But I actually want to pay attention now in this reread to the subtle work… well, sometimes not so subtle. Subtle is an outstretched hand in a room of silence that Hermione provides. Hermione and her initial reaction to the beginning of Umbridge’s lesson sets in store the entire… the rest of the lesson, the rest of the year, and I think begins to even build the momentum for the DA all in this very well-measured… because Hermione knows enough to know the subtleties of what’s going on. She has nuance here. Instead of just doing an outburst, Hermione begins to quietly question Umbridge’s goals and lessons and uses her own words against her. And I just think it’s very masterful what Hermione does to set up Harry’s outburst that we always spend so much time on.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It really is.

Andrew: And Micah had a point for a little later in the discussion, but I’ll just jump off of it now. Her behavior here is similar to how she’s the only one actually paying attention to the enemy by continuing to read the Daily Prophet.

Eric: Augh, that’s so important.

Andrew: I guess it’s Harry who says, “Why are you continuing to get the Daily Prophet? It’s full of lies,” And she says, “I’m keeping an eye on the enemy.” She’s reading in between the lines, just like here when Umbridge is setting up the course. Hermione is reading in between the lines, noticing what’s missing, not just going along for a ride.

Eric: Yeah, everybody else is a good little student; they’re reading their chapter as described, and Hermione is the one who… again, Hermione GPT is like, “Wait a minute. There’s nothing in here about using defensive spells.” And then everyone else slowly catches on and is like, “Wait a minute, that is off. She’s right.” It just… you need somebody like Hermione to be able to not only… if she had just blurted out, or if Ron had said randomly, “What, we don’t get to use our wands?”, Umbridge would have shut down. You never would have gotten the same level of explanation, exposition. It’s funny because essentially you get a lot about Dolores Umbridge, how she ignores Hermione for easily 15 minutes because she doesn’t want to deal. She pretends not to see her, and then she’s forced to engage in more of that sickly sweetness that’s all false. You really get a lot of Umbridge’s character there.

Micah: Yeah, but Hermione… I have to say, Harry likely would not have gotten detention at all if it wasn’t for Hermione – and I know that’s a little bit of a hot take – at least not in this chapter…

Eric: [laughs] What?

Micah: No, Hermione’s actions directly lead to a blowup that leads to Harry getting detention for the entire week, because Harry is very much like the rest of the students that you just mentioned. They’re bored, they’re reading their textbook, they’re falling asleep. Hermione’s actions expedite the tension between Harry and Umbridge, and they end up landing him in a lot of trouble.

Eric: I would argue…

Micah: Going back to what you said earlier about Ron not showing up for Harry in this chapter in the right way, Hermione also… because Hermione also recognizes what’s happening. She’s trying to get Harry to calm down, and it’s just he’s reached the breaking point after this day that he’s had.

Eric: Here’s my counterpoint to that, which is that Hermione, in her questioning of Umbridge, gives Harry a platform for the rest of the students to get to know him better, because they see how outraged he is, strictly about what Umbridge is saying about the discrediting that she’s trying to do on their past teachers. And I think that the rest of the class that’s in here finds a friend in Harry. They find the common ground all because Hermione set that up.

Micah: Wrong place, wrong time for it.

Eric: Possibly, but getting detention with Dolores – which is the next chapter – is not the worst thing that could have happened to Harry. I think the worst thing that could have happened to Harry is he would have no opportunities throughout the entire year to distinguish himself, to allow the school to really know who he is, and then subsequently, everyone would just believe the more powerful government, the more saturated market that’s discrediting Harry, and he’d have a lot fewer friends and be miserable.

Laura: I also think Umbridge is kind of banking on the students being tired and bored and not paying attention, just like she was at the start-of-term feast when she was basically being an Orwellian character and speaking in terms that were just so dull and meaningless that people got lost and tired, and they’d been on the train all day and they didn’t care about it, because every school year has gone on normally. Why would this one be any different?

Eric: You’re right, and then if anyone confronts her about something she’s doing, she says, “Well, didn’t you pay attention in my speech, where everyone seemed fine with it then?”

Laura: Right.

Eric: It’s like, “Oh, you weren’t listening to my speech? Shame on you.” So I just love the idea that because of Hermione’s approach… and again, I’ve called it subtle. I’ve called it delicate. It’s measured. Because of Hermione’s whole approach of being the innocent question-asker, it allows Umbridge to say a lot more and reveal a lot more than she would choose to, and I think it also causes Umbridge to go on to say more unpopular things that these students hate and serves to galvanize them against her. It works against her, the more Umbridge says.

Micah: So you would say that Hermione is actually goading Umbridge in this case.

Eric: Yes, she is goading as in G-O-A-D, and then Hermione right now is GOAT-ing, like greatest of all time. I’ve never seen anything this good.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: The double goat.

Eric: The double goat.

Micah: Four horns.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I do see where you’re coming from, though, but I think the unintended consequence is Harry ends up in detention.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I just feel as though if you take someone sane… let’s pick a sane professor, any sane professor, and why did we all just pick McGonagall? McGonagall appreciates that Hermione knows what’s going on, and she says as such to Harry later in the chapter. Harry doesn’t really have the capability – and he’s got so much else going on – to really pay attention to the finer points of what’s happening at Hogwarts, but Hermione can, and that’s exactly words to the effect of what McGonagall is saying. McGonagall knows that Hermione knows that this is the way things are working.

Laura: And I think one way or another, whether it was now or a couple of months from now, Umbridge was going to find a way to stick it to Harry. Remember, she really wanted to expel him from Hogwarts.

Eric: She really wanted to suck his soul out before she even met him!

Laura: Yeah, good point.

Eric: I mean, if you’re talking about extreme…

Andrew: Yeah, she got started messing with him at school nice and early, earlier than she probably anticipated. I do have to say, I think we can agree with Umbridge on at least one point during this outburst.

Eric: What’s this going to be?

Andrew: The DADA teachings have been very fragmented due to the yearly teacher turnovers, and Dumbledore’s poor choices – and the curse – have given the Ministry a good reason to step in. It’s been all over the place. This is the only course with this type of turnover.

Laura: Yeah, there does need to be oversight, but I think the Ministry also needs oversight. I don’t know that they’re the ones to be providing it. They’re no better. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Well, under the guise of educational reform, they’re able to basically disarm – literally and figuratively – this whole student body of Hogwarts. They don’t prepare them for what’s coming.

Andrew: Also, I noticed Umbridge says, “The Ministry guarantees you are not in any danger” to the students.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Is that a money back guarantee? What kind of guarantee is that? Is that a Sirius Black guarantee?

Micah: Well, first off, does she know where she’s teaching?

Eric: Oh, man. There’s always the Dumbledore factor. He can always make it dangerous, even if you try not.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: She should know she’s teaching in one of the biggest security nightmares in all of Scotland. But yeah, I think that’s pretty comical. See breakout from Azkaban number one. See Quidditch World Cup. See Triwizard Tournament. See breakout from Azkaban number two, which is coming later in this book. See Voldemort’s return. Yeah, yeah, “The Ministry guarantees you’re not in any danger. Don’t worry about it.”

Andrew: They have no room to issue guarantees.

Eric: By the time anyone calls them on it, though, Hogwarts will be destroyed. It doesn’t… there’s no reprimations, or there’s no penalty. It’s not like 20 years from now, lawyers are going to be like, “If you were harmed at Hogwarts against the Ministry of Magic after they promised you you were safe, you may be entitled to compensation.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s not going to work that way. It’s not going to work that way because Umbridge is literally lying through her teeth to achieve her short term ends and does not care about the future. You can wreck the school. You can wreck the planet without anybody to stop you, because you’re in power and you’re abusing it.

Andrew: Well, and speaking of the Ministry’s shortcomings, she does say that Cedric’s death was a tragic accident, but what are the official details from the Ministry? What is their official line about how this occurred? And I did some research… I don’t think we ever learn what the Ministry actually said happened, so how could people believe the Ministry when they’re not giving any information about this?

Eric: Maybe they’re desensitized to all those accidents that just occur when around Hogwarts, when around Dumbledore, when around magic.

Andrew: I guess so, but that would raise an alarm in my mind if I was a parent or just an onlooker. We always expect to learn details about tragic accidents.

Eric: The thing is, Cedric Diggory was as far from a Moaning Myrtle that you could get, who’s just some girl; she’s young and doesn’t have any skills about her. He was a Hogwarts champion, 17 years of age. It wasn’t just like some rando Hogwarts student died; this was a well-practiced Quidditch star who had a lot of skill. To die in an accident really kind of throws into question the whole thing.

Andrew: Yeah. Ariane says we should send Umbridge some of our Security Consultant merchandise available at MuggleCastMerch.com. I think that’s a great idea.

Micah: Do we have any pink?

Eric: I’m going to send her Laura’s pants.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: If it’s not in pink, she’s not going to wear it.

Andrew: True, we’ve got to make a pink one just for her. And the final point I wanted to bring up about Umbridge… and this ties into the “Have a biscuit, Potter” moment at the end of this chapter. So at the end, McGonagall refers to Umbridge as “Dolores Umbridge” to Harry, not once, not twice, but three times! And this implies to me that she thinks she and Harry, McGonagall and Harry, are on equal footing here when it comes to their relationship to Umbridge and what they should think of her. If she had referred to Umbridge as “Professor Umbridge,” it would have implied that Harry needs to show her respect or treat her as someone who is senior to him.

Eric: Absolutely.

Andrew: But instead, McGonagall is implying that Harry is her equal, and he shouldn’t have to give her the same respect he would any other teacher at Hogwarts.

Eric: Yeah, I agree with that. It’s the same way that Dumbledore keeps calling Snape “Professor Snape” to Harry in the hopes that it will catch on, and he fails miserably.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But yeah, I mean, McGonagall has no love for Umbridge, and I think, again, calling her by her first name in front of a student – which you rarely, if ever, learned your teachers’ first names or heard it said by other teachers – it is a symbol of, if not disrespect, definitely dissent. And McGonagall is not sugar-coating Umbridge’s presence and what it means for the school, and she’s not, I guess, obeying in advance for the whole thing. She’s showing that distance. I agree with you, Andrew, on this.

Micah: For one of the first times, Professor McGonagall is treating Harry as if he’s a peer, as if he’s an adult, and this is one of the great, I think, moments between the two of them. We see another one happen a little bit later on in this book in that “Careers Advice” chapter that you mentioned, Andrew, and then probably the most significant one is in Deathly Hallows when Harry uses the Cruciatus Curse on Amycus Carrow after he spits on McGonagall. So I will say, noticeable by his absence in all of this is Dumbledore. I do feel that there could have been a bit of a game plan here, and Dumbledore should have spelled it out clearly to Harry to not let his buttons get pushed by Umbridge; I think that’s what McGonagall is trying to tell Harry in this moment. And yes, Hermione has tried a couple of times already to do just that, but it’s just so weird to me that Dumbledore is so absent in these types of situations, because I think Harry would listen to what he has to say.

Eric: I believe that’ll cover this discussion for Chapter 12, “Professor Umbridge.”


Odds & Ends


Eric: Now let’s get to some odds and ends here.

Micah: Yeah, so Andrew, you brought up earlier just the importance of Hermione receiving the Daily Prophet and what that represents, the fact that she’s keeping tabs on the Ministry. I wanted to make sure we called that out. And then we talked about this earlier, this whole idea of standardized testing, and Trelawney, she’s got the right of it in this chapter when she says, “You think a test could actually prove whether or not you have the ability to see the future or do other things that are Divination-related?” And she’s probably right. I don’t think a test really can suffice when it comes to prophecy and other things like that, so…

Laura: And also, I mean, when it comes to other subjects, not everyone’s a great test taker. I’m not. I wasn’t great at standardized testing.


Please Translate for the Dumb Americans


Andrew: Also, I want to bring back one of our new segments here in Chapter by Chapter that I came up with myself: Please Translate for the Dumb Americans. Let’s play the sound effect.

[“Duhhh” sound effect plays]

Laura: [laughs] Oh my God.

Eric: Can we hear that again? I didn’t quite hear that.

Andrew: Duhhh, dahhh, dahhh!

Eric: Oh, wow.

Andrew: The quote from this chapter is “‘We do try,’ said Ron,” when asked by Hermione if he pays attention during Binns’s classes. “We just haven’t got your brains or your memory or your concentration – you’re just cleverer than we are – is it nice to rub it in?” And then Hermione says, “‘Oh, don’t give me that rubbish,’ but she looked slightly mollified as she led the way out into the damp courtyard.” So I’ve got to admit, I didn’t know what mollified meant, and it’s basically to appease the anger or anxiety of someone.

Laura: Yeah, so for example, Hermione was clearly very annoyed about Ron implying that she was going to have to do all of their homework, but Ron, in this moment, kind of flatters Hermione in saying, “Hey, listen, I’m just a big dummy, and you have this big, amazing brain, so can you please help me?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And Hermione is still kind of salty about it, but she feels… she got a compliment.

Andrew: “Well, I am pretty smart.”

Laura: She’s happy that he acknowledged it.

Eric: Flattery will get you everywhere.

Laura: She’s like, “I know I’m better than you.” [laughs]

Andrew: At least he notices.

Micah: And then what did Ron do after?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: He married her. He married Hermione.

Andrew: So there is another word in this chapter…

Micah: It’s in the book, Andrew.

Andrew: … I’ve never seen in an American book, this word “ejaculate.” “Ron ejaculated loudly.” I’ve never seen that in an American novel.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s an outburst. A vocal outburst.

Micah: You can save that for bonus MuggleCast.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m not asking what it is; I’m just noting I don’t see it in American novels too often, at least not the type that I read.

Micah: You’re reading the wrong ones, then.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I need to read 50 Shades of Gray, I think.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]


Superlative of the Week


Eric: It’s time to talk about what our favorite lines were of the chapter that were said to Umbridge back in her face, because pretty much the whole class got involved, actually, talking back, all because of the snowball effect that Hermione started. And I’m going to go with, “‘Yeah, Quirrell was a great teacher,’ said Harry loudly, ‘there was just that minor drawback of him having Lord Voldemort sticking out of the back of his head.'” Good use of saying Voldemort’s name, which we know always unnerves people, but he did it here for great effect.

Laura: I’m going to go with Dean Thomas talking about Mad-Eye Fakey and saying, “Well, he turned out to be a maniac, didn’t he? Mind you, we still learned loads.”

Andrew: So mine is this exchange between Umbridge and Harry. Umbridge says, “There is nothing waiting out there, Mr. Potter,” and Harry says, “Oh, yeah? […] Hmm, let’s think… maybe Lord Voldemort?”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “Ever hear of him?”

Eric: Yeah, another good use of that name for effect.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And for me, Harry saying to Umbridge, “So, according to you, Cedric Diggory dropped dead of his own accord?”

Andrew: What’s the official line from the Ministry about that? I want details.

Eric: We all want details. Harry is pressing for it.


Lynx Line


Eric: So that’s good; let’s talk about our Lynx Line question for the week. We asked over on our Patreon: What is a wild dream that you have had which either came true shortly after, or was just very weird? This of course, we didn’t talk about it during the chapter, but Divination class, Trelawney assigns them dream journals, and they’re analyzing their dreams. So here is what our listeners replied with.

Andrew: Rachel said,

“I was a math teacher for five years and always had crazy dreams in the days leading up to the first day of a new year. Then, when I changed jobs, I STILL had that back-to-school dream in September. In it I was walking through the hallway, but nobody spoke English, and they used a different number system, so I had no idea how to teach anything. It was a disaster, and I was very relieved to wake up and not go teach.”

Eric: Oh, man. Carlee says, “Sometime last year, I dreamed I had to eat a violin.”

Laura: Oof!

“Yup… wood, metal strings, everything. No idea what the reason was, just remember that it was super dry, hard, and awful. I made the mistake of telling my family about the dream, and my kids still tease me about it. For context, I’m an elementary school music teacher with lots of food allergies/sensitivities, and we had just recently put all the pieces of my digestive puzzle together. So maybe those ideas were hijacking my subconscious just a bit.”

Eric: You think?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I hope to never have to eat a string instrument. That sounds awful.

Micah: Sherry says,

“I have two different ‘stress dreams.’ You all know I am blind. When my stress level got out of control, I used to dream that I was in the front passenger seat of a car with a friend. We were on Highway 101 during rush hour in California, and the driver had a heart attack or became otherwise unable to drive, unconscious. I had to try to figure out how to stop the car. I’d wake up shaking and terrified. I haven’t had that dream since I retired. Now I occasionally dream that I’m in the US, but for some reason Mount Everest is in the US, and I’m trying to climb it. And I just figured out that this dream is probably about my battle with cancer, and the chemo treatments I’m going through right now! Funny that never occurred to me before.”

Eric: There is therapeutic value in talking about your dreams, people. Maybe Trelawney is on to something. And I’m grateful to you, Sherry, for sharing those.

Laura: Yeah, thank you, Sherry. We’re thinking of you. Please keep us posted. Ashley says,

“When I was 13 (2005) I had what can only be described as a Benadryl-induced sleep movie. I was aboard the Titanic (Credence wasn’t there), and I was trying to escape with Tre Cool, the drummer of Green Day. While running across the ship, we saw the band playing, but they all had lobster claws for hands. As we boarded a life boat, it capsized, and suddenly we were in my middle school hallway and the bell was ringing. I then woke up. I have no words for this, but it has haunted me for 20 years.”

Laura: Also, mad props to whoever gave me this Lynx Line submission to read…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Green Day?

Laura: … because Green Day, Titanic, Tre Cool… perfect.

Andrew: Laura is jelly of this dream.

Laura: I know, I know. Actually, I don’t usually remember my dreams.

Andrew: I don’t either. I did have a nightmare recently involving a gun, so…

Eric: Oh.

Laura: Yikes.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, anyway. Here’s one from Autumn:

“I used to have a dream as a kid that was reoccurring until I was about 10. These giant pigs, which walked on their hind legs, would come in the night and take me away. The secret entrance to their world was our fireplace in my old house. They had a huge cauldron and were planning on cooking me, but never got that far in the dream, thankfully.”

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Andrew: Very detailed, too. I love all the details here.

Laura: I know.

Eric: I feel like this is a Grimms’ Fairy Tales version of a…

Micah: Does she eat pork?

Andrew: [laughs] Maybe. You know what I’m thinking, though? Sometimes listeners tell us that they listen to the podcast when going to bed at night as a way to help them sleep. Now I’m thinking some of our listeners are listening to these dreams while asleep, and they’re going to start having dreams about pigs coming to cook them in cauldrons. [laughs]

Eric: Wow, okay. Let’s listen to… let’s end on a funny one, then, if that’s the case, Andrew. This comes from Catie, who said,

“Once I had a dream that I was flying on a blue dragon to save Harry and Ron from the reaping in Hunger Games. I tore up the stage, leaving the hosts in their ridiculous outfits. Ron whimpered like he saw spiders. Harry told Katniss good luck, and ‘Stick it to the man with the crappy nose,’ and she did the three finger salute. Everyone applauded, and I still don’t know who the guy with the crappy nose in Hunger Games is.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I love that this dream merged fandoms. I want to dream something that merges fandoms. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, absolutely. Those types of dreams happen when you’re very young, I think, interacting with the characters in a new level. So that’s very exciting. That was a fun little Lynx Line segment; thank you to all who submitted that.

Andrew: Yeah, and listeners, you can participate in the Lynx line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’re having a lot of fun coming up with these questions and then reading all the responses. If you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and next week we actually will have a Muggle Mail episode, so stay tuned for that.

Micah: So send those voice memos.

Andrew: Get them in now, everybody.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question was: In light of Umbridge’s long and boring speech, what’s the length of the longest speech ever given in the UK, presented by Henry Peter Brougham in 1828? The correct answer was six hours, six hours of a speech given in 1828. I’m so glad Umbridge let them sleep and didn’t go on for any longer. 73% of people said they did not look that up, and this week’s winners were Alabaster Alastor; Annabelle the real life Weasley; Ben (not SHANE because I’m younger than MuggleCast); Borelores Dumb-beep; Buff Daddy; Fell asleep during Umbridge’s speech; Jim Dale’s Sorting Hat song; My history teacher is almost as interesting as Professor Binns, #AlmostFellAsleepFirstDayOfGeography; Ravenpuff from Sweden; and Tofu Tom jiggles again. Okay, keep on jiggling there, Tofu Tom. Here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: Which US fast food chain was the first to add savory biscuits to their menu in the 1970s?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I love, love, love, a good biscuit from a restaurant.

Laura: Same.

Andrew: You’re taking the UK biscuit and turning it into the American fast food biscuit. I love it. [laughs]

Eric: It’s fully the American biscuit. The prophecy is fulfilled here, really, honestly.

Micah: Just like our throwback episode, right?

Andrew and Eric: Yep.

Eric: So submit your answer to this week’s Quizzitch question – or next week’s Quizzitch question – via the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. Or if you’re there reading transcripts or something, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav and submit your answer.

Andrew: Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In recent episodes of What the Hype?!, we made predictions about the next book in the Fourth Wing series, Onyx Storm, which is due out within days, depending on when you listen to this episode. And we reviewed the latest Star Wars TV series, Skeleton Crew. And then over on Millennial, we discussed the implications of TikTok being banned and the concept of third spaces. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years and counting, and there are several great ways to help us out. You can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast shirts, hoodies, glassware, hats, and more, and merch includes security consultant-themed items so you can take care of much needed business at Hogwarts, just like Umbridge is allegedly doing. Apple Podcasts subscribers can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And for even more benefits – and this is probably the best way to help us out – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, Lynx Line participation, a physical gift, a video message from one of the four of us made just for you, and more. We’re very grateful for your support, so that is why we offer a lot of perks on our Patreon. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and we’d love a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: See you next week for a Muggle Mail episode. Bye, everyone.

Transcript #688

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #688, Mall Santa Sorting Hat (OOTP Chapter 11, The Sorting Hat’s New Song)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Micah Tannenbaum: For 20 years and counting, welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Micah.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Eric: Why do I feel like Fred and George after trying the Aging Potion all of a sudden?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Long gray beard as soon as Micah said, “It’s our 20th year of podcasting!”

Micah: And Andrew is just too young and good-looking to be here.

Eric: I know. He was afraid of feeling old, so he’s not here, but by next week, I think we’ll convince him to join us on the train again.

Laura: Oh. See, I thought he wasn’t here because this was past his bedtime now. Maybe he is too old. You ever think about that?

Eric: Oh!

Micah: Oooh.

Eric: There are many reasons. But needless to say, our fearless leader will return next week.

Micah: Yes, so we will do our best in his absence. And just a couple quick announcements to start off 2025: With us Flooing into a new decade for our show, we could really use your support while we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and cover any and all news concerning the Harry Potter TV show. So visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to pledge and enjoy instant access to lots of great benefits, including – I wasn’t ready for that…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … bonus MuggleCast, which we have a new one which we will be recording right after our episode tonight – speaking of the new year – all about New Year’s resolutions, and why don’t they celebrate New Year’s in the wizarding world? At least, as far as we know; we never hear about it.

Eric: It’s true.

Laura: They don’t make resolutions. They’re not trying to be better.

Eric: [laughs] I can think of a few characters who absolutely do not do resolutions. Dumbledore, a few others…

Micah: Makes sense. I was going to say Hogwarts just is beyond help when it comes to security, so they don’t make any resolutions.

Eric: That’s right.

Micah: But we do two of those every month for our patrons, and they’re always a lot of fun. Lets us unwind a little bit. Sometimes we get to do topics and we can say things because it’s beyond a paywall.

Eric: That’s Micah’s favorite thing about it.

Micah: It really is. It’s really all about me, bonus MuggleCast, and my ability to be totally unfiltered 100% of the time. But with that said, let’s get back into Chapter by Chapter. It’s been a couple weeks because…

Eric: It’s been a year!

Micah: A year?

Eric: We haven’t done Chapter by Chapter in a year! A calendar year.

Micah: So we will kick things off with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “The Sorting Hat’s New Song.” And Laura, are you going to sing the Sorting Hat’s new song for us?

Laura: Singing is not one of my talents, so no.

Micah: Karaoke?

Laura: Nah.

Micah: Not even close?

Laura: You really don’t want it. I promise you.

Micah: What about chapter analysis?

Laura: I can do that for you, yeah.

Micah: Okay. [laughs]

Eric: So I love that we’re starting a new year of Hogwarts and starting a new year on the show as well.

Laura: Right?


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Eric: Just for the listeners who might be curious, we last discussed this chapter, Chapter 11, “Sorting Hat’s New Song,” nearly 250 episodes ago! I’m just going to keep saying things that make us feel old. That was on MuggleCast number 446, titled “Going Rogue,” which debuted on December 16, 2019. And here is… we have everyone’s new favorite segment for the show, the MuggleCast Time-Turner segment for that chapter.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 446.

Micah: I liked what Nearly Headless Nick said about the hat being able to pick up things because it sits in Dumbledore’s office. So I wonder if prior to each year, does Dumbledore just sit down with the hat and be like, “Hey, look, this is how it’s going to go this year, and make sure you hit these points, and I’ll put you on a really comfy pillow for the rest of the year.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “And I’ll brush you.”

Micah: “I’ll wash you.”

Andrew: “I’ll keep the office at your desired temperature.”

Eric: Oh my God. [laughs]

Andrew: “I’ll buy you another hat that you can hang out with.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: So you can make baby skull caps or something like that.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: When two hats love each other…

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Eric: Fun talk about a family of hats.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, unfortunately, we are going to dive into our chapter with a maybe not so fun talk about Thestrals. I was wondering if I could get one of you to read this excerpt here at the beginning of the chapter.

Eric: Sure. “Harry had once before had the experience of seeing something that Ron could not, but that had been a reflection in a mirror, something much more insubstantial than a hundred very solid-looking beasts strong enough to pull a fleet of carriages.”

Laura: It is interesting that Harry, in this moment, feels that the Mirror of Erised was insubstantial by comparison, because we have to remember what he was seeing in the mirror: He was seeing his dead family members, in particular his parents. And I thought this was a nice connecting the threads moment because death is a theme in both of these areas, with Thestrals and the Mirror of Erised. But in both cases, even though Ron can see the Mirror of Erised, he can’t see what Harry sees, so it’s not quite that Harry has never experienced this before; it’s just that Ron, at least, knew the Mirror of Erised existed.

Eric: Yeah. See, it’s interesting, Laura, because I read this a slightly different way in that Harry sees the Thestrals; he’s like, “These are solid-looking. They’re pulling a hundred carriages.” I think I agree that, reading it back right now, it reads like he’s saying, “Man, Ron couldn’t see the mirror, but that was a mirror. This is a hundred horse-like beings!”

Laura: Right.

Eric: But for me, I thought for a minute there that it could just be that Harry realizes something is pulling the carriages. This gives some level of explanation to what wasn’t there. It’s never a good feeling when you can see something someone else can’t, but something’s pulling the carriages; it’s solid. He finally has a piece of the puzzle that others don’t see. But unfortunately, it’s not going to get any better for him, because I’m thinking of the end of this book – here’s to connect the thread – with the veil and the voices that he hears behind it that no one else hears. [laughs] Except maybe Luna.

Micah: Luna.

Laura: And Ginny, right?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: I think this is a bit of a bad comparison on Harry’s part, though, because if I were him, I would liken it to hearing the Basilisk in Chamber of Secrets, right? That was something that nobody else could hear.

Eric: [laughs] “Here, Harry, here’s four other examples of when you were the only one that experienced something, and your friends couldn’t keep up.” But yeah, it’s a good point.

Laura: Well, once we’re on the platform, we find ourselves in a little bit of an awkward situation with our new friend Luna, because the trio very quickly notices that Hagrid is not on the platform collecting first years to go across the lake; it’s Professor Grubbly-Plank. They’re very concerned, of course, about where Hagrid is, and Luna opines that, “Hey, maybe, hopefully he’s left. He’s a terrible teacher.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And when Harry and Ron round on her, she’s like, “Oh, I’m kind of surprised that you like him. He’s kind of a joke in Ravenclaw.” So I’m just imagining the Ravenclaws sitting around the common room being petty as hell about Hagrid. [laughs]

Eric: This is the Ravenclaw common room tonight once news spreads.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s funny because as much as this is shots fired, and the characters have to go into defense mode for their friend Hagrid, notably Harry and Ron… and Ginny, for some reason. Hermione is caught in the middle and doesn’t immediately leap to Hagrid’s defense. That said, Luna brings up, I think, a valuable point, which is that if the Ravenclaws, the entire House, consider Hagrid a joke, it’s probably because he’s not a very good teacher. Harry and Ron aren’t really arguing that fact. He’s their friend, but here’s a House that dedicates itself to wisdom and knowledge and learning, and I think that Luna’s admission here – maybe tactless or ill-informed, or she didn’t read the room first before she said – is ultimately correct and fair. And if they’re not getting an education from this teacher, it’s a waste of their time, and frankly, I feel bad for all the Ravenclaws that have had to have years now of Hagrid’s teaching.

Micah: Wow. Well, standing up for your friends is a theme that we see in this chapter; we see it a little bit later on when both Ron and Neville stand up for Harry. But I do agree with you, Eric; the one thing I’ll say, though, is I wonder how many teachers rise to the level of Ravenclaw approval.

Laura: Yeah, seems like they’re a tough crowd.

Eric: [laughs] They should all rise to the level of Ravenclaw approval! Get specific teachers in. Have it be like the AP class you elected for and never took; I’m speaking about myself.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: But there were at least teachers. They made that available to our student body. It’s a good question because I don’t think – and this will go along with the theme of this chapter that we’re going to be discussing – a lot of these teachers wouldn’t measure up, to your point.

Micah: But I think more importantly, it’s meant to build on Luna’s character, the character that we were introduced to on the train. She doesn’t have a filter. She speaks her mind, and in this case, she’s right, and it’s nice to get a perspective, too, from a totally different House on somebody like Hagrid.

Eric: Yeah. Well, that’s because for the first time, too, I get that perspective, and I’m like, “Oh, she’s right.” All of Ravenclaw really must think Hagrid is a joke. Slytherin would say it to his face and make fun of him and make him trip up, but Ravenclaw, I think, at the end of the day doesn’t need to be mean about it; they just really want education that isn’t being gotten. I’m thinking of all the lessons where Hagrid didn’t even know what the Skrewts wanted, so he just made everybody kind of figure it out; he’s learning at the same time they are. That is a joke, ultimately, and it’s upsetting. What they should have done… and Grubbly-Plank, too, just gets a whirlwind of hate, and Harry is always glaring at her, [laughs] either outright interrupting her classes to go “Where’s Hagrid?” all the time. What they should do is have Grubbly-Plank be the professional, full-time Care of Magical Creatures teacher, maybe even years two through seven, and then let Hagrid do the first year thing since he’s already got a rapport with the first years for carting them across the lake every year. That should be something that Hagrid has, because he also has groundskeeping duties.

Laura: Yeah. I almost wonder in this moment, in this whole exchange where Hermione is kind of begrudgingly agreeing with Luna, I wonder if she has this moment of discomfort where she’s thinking, “Gosh, this girl seems like a kook,” but then she says something she agrees with.

Micah: Yeah. “Actually…”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: So I wonder if it’s a double-layered uncertainty because she knows she’s going to be in the doghouse with Harry and Ron, but she’s also like, “Well, if she thinks that… I don’t know.” I really like Luna as a foil to Hermione, because Hermione can be very rigid and she misses a lot sometimes because of that.

Micah: Yeah, she’s a breath of fresh air, especially in this book. She is the total counter-balance to Umbridge.

Laura: Yeah, well, I was going to say, speaking of someone who is not a breath of fresh air, we will get to her shortly. But we’re going to jump into an analysis of the Sorting Hat’s song. No, I will not be singing it; however, if one of the two of you would like to sing it, by all means, I will not stop you. But there are so many interesting tidbits in this song that not only have to do with the warning that the hat is trying to give, but with the history of Hogwarts and its founders, and we just don’t get a ton of that in the series, so stuff like this is a real treat. Details like the fact that Gryffindor and Slytherin were besties, apparently, which is really hard to imagine.

Eric: Is it?

Laura: Kinda. Especially… I mean, I understand that the representations we get of the founders are… I feel like in a lot of ways they’re two-dimensional, right? It’s like, Slytherin: racist, bad. Gryffindor: brave, sword. Ravenclaw: smart.

Eric: I’m sure they’ve made the Sorting Hat edit itself for time before in years past, too, so you do get…

Micah: And how about Hufflepuff, Laura? Didn’t hear what you were going to characterize them as.

Laura: I mean, Hufflepuff: nice. [laughs]

Eric: Patient, nice, sweet…

Laura: Particularly good finders, from what I hear.

Eric: I agree.

Laura: Yeah, but I just think it’s interesting, especially given the way this song goes. I mean, ultimately, we learn about how the founders… well, three of the four founders had very specific ideas of who they thought warranted being in their Houses. So of course, Slytherin wanted all the pure-bloods, Gryffindor wanted the bravest of the brave, Ravenclaw wanted the most intelligent, and Hufflepuff said, “You know what? I think everyone deserves to learn,” which I feel like must have objectively made her the best teacher, hands down.

Micah: That was just convenient for the writer, though, too, because after you have the first three, you have to have somebody take the rest. No?

Laura: Yeah, I guess.

Eric: Well, either that or you offload… you delegate to people who are less than qualified than the founders. I agree, this song is good for many reasons. Previously, I think we’ve heard that the four founders were all friends with each other, but this one pairs them off. This one says Gryffindor and Slytherin were the ones that were closest, and Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were the others that were closest. So I do think there are similarities between Slytherin and Gryffindor; I think that maybe those personality types are closer together than we typically acknowledge. So that also makes Slytherin’s falling out that much more harrowing, I think, for Gryffindor, which is after all, the main House, main character of the books. [laughs]

Laura: Right. Well, the hat, of course, goes into that falling out, and we know the history here, right? Slytherin leaves, and then, what, 300 years later, the consequences rear their ugly head. But the hat also acknowledges what its primary function is, but expresses some doubt about that function. It says, “Hey, I know my only job – literally my only job – is to Sort you all into four different Houses, to separate you, but sometimes I worry that that’s the wrong thing to do, and that that is breeding and creating discord among you all that need not be.”

Micah: Right. My man wants a job change; that’s what it sounds like to me.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s in crisis. It’s having a career crisis. It’s time to get on LinkedIn and start putting some feelers out and find a job that fits and better aligns with its values.

Micah: Totally.

Laura: Do you think that’s why it held the sword of Gryffindor towards the end of the second year?

Micah: Like ransom?

Laura: Well, no, for Harry. Didn’t he pull the sword of Gryffindor out of it?

Eric: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s trying to see what else it might be good at.

Laura: Yeah. He was like, “Hey, Albus, can I just…? I’ve been bored. I haven’t done anything since September. Can you give me something? Throw me a bone?” And Dumbledore was like, “I’ve got a sword.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Probably. Yeah, but it’s interesting because Harry… to your point, Laura, it’s rare that we get this much insight into the founders, and they are kind of two-dimensional. It’s bad enough that Harry misses Sorting a couple of years. This is maybe the third time he’s seen it, and it’s his fifth year at Hogwarts out of six. Let’s be real. So I think that that’s a reason why we don’t get it often, but also we’re told that this is maybe not unique for the Sorting Hat to do, but nevertheless is the most recent time in recent memory that it’s strayed from its straight and narrow path. But you wouldn’t get this kind of commentary, this contemplative “I question whether I should split you all up” commentary, if it wasn’t 100% necessary, and I think there’s some level of, I guess, trust in that from the student body.

Micah: Do you think Dumbledore is a hat whisperer, and these are actually Dumbledore’s thoughts that are coming through?

Eric: Maybe. I think Dumbledore has been contemplative in that same exact way; the “Sometimes I think we Sort too soon” line has those same echoes.

Micah: The one thing that came to mind for me, though… and you were talking about how Harry hasn’t really been present at all of the Sortings. I believe this is the last Sorting that we get in this series, and so this is really the Sorting Hat’s parting words to the school. Now, there’s no real way unless it’s prophetic in some capacity to know what’s to come in Deathly Hallows, but it seems like it does have some sentience to it, that it does pick up on things beyond just what maybe it overhears in Dumbledore’s office, that it can actually interpret those things. And this is a warning, and it’s important for us as readers because it’s basically laying out what it thinks is important for what’s to come in the next two books.

Eric: And let’s also add that although he only has one job, each year it gets to see inside the minds of young students, and I think that what it sees in their minds is talent always, “Of course, oh my goodness, yes,” but that if honed to work together, you could be stronger. I like that the hat sees everything it sees, and its one perhaps parting message, like you said, Micah, is “Get along. Figure out how you can work together, despite the fact that I’m splitting you all up.” And yeah, that message is 100% relevant and 100% evergreen.

Laura: Yeah, great points. I do want to point out we are getting a correction in the Discord. So the hat did belong to Godric Gryffindor, so that is why Harry was able to pull the sword of Gryffindor out of it. So just wanted to thank Moony Lupin, Legalize Gillyweed… but then beyond that, Frank is asking in the Discord, “So is it Godric’s voice that we hear when the hat speaks?”

Eric: I like to think it’s its own voice. I think… I don’t want to rob the hat of autonomy. I think it’s impressive that the founders made the hat its own sentient being; I think that’s extremely impressive, and if we start to say it’s Godric’s voice, then we kind of make the hat less than its own thing.

Laura: Yeah. I had a question about the sentience, or the free will, if you think free will is a thing; I know that has been a debate that has come up on the show before with relation to the Sorting Hat. But I do think it’s interesting that the Sorting Hat is able to do things like break from tradition to give warnings, that it is also able to take choice into account when it’s Sorting the students, because I have a feeling that three out of the original four founders would not have taken choice into account.

Eric: That’s interesting!

Laura: Right? And so the Sorting Hat is like, “Eh, you’re good. I’ll put you where you want to go.” But I just don’t see Godric Gryffindor or Salazar Slytherin having someone come to them who doesn’t meet their standards for their House, and saying, “Hey, I really want to be in Slytherin; will you let me in?” I don’t see that happening, so it’s interesting.

Eric: Yeah, maybe it was a concession because the Sorting Hat wasn’t there since day one Sorting the Houses; the Sorting Hat was put in charge after the founders stopped doing it themselves. And so maybe a concession that each of them made after Slytherin left was to come up with a list of their values, three or four values, ones that we hear the hat sing about all this time, and it would use those values to then ascribe a House to people. So rather than strictly going by who’s the most studious or any of that – who’s the bravest, who’s the most cunning – and really just looked at… we’ve questioned before, with Hermione being in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw, what does she value more? Is it the learning, or is it the friendship aspect and bravery and standing up for what you believe in? So it’s kind of wishy-washy there.

Micah: I do like what Moony Lupin said about the Sorting Hat. “It’s like the voice of Gryffindor, mind of Ravenclaw, gentleness of Hufflepuff, and the cut-throatness of Slytherin.”

Eric: I love that.

Laura: Yeah. The Slytherin piece is when the hat barely touches someone’s head, and is like, “Oh no, get me off here. You can go in Slytherin. Bye.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. It’s like sitting on Santa’s lap but he’s been there for three hours without a break, and he’s just like, “What do you want? Okay, bye, get out of here.”

Laura: [laughs] Well, we’re going to get out of here for just a moment for a quick ad break, but then we’ll be right back to finish chatting about the Sorting Hat’s new song.

[Ad break]

Laura: And we’re back, and we talked about this a little bit before the break, but we know it’s not the first time that the Sorting Hat has used the song to give a warning, because Nearly Headless Nick confirms this. Unfortunately, we never are rewarded with the answer to the question, “Well, what else did it warn us about?” First of all, because he’s about to tell them and Professor McGonagall rudely interrupts him by staring daggers at him to shut the heck up. But then two, Ron is being kind of insensitive towards Nick when asking the question, and chewing with his mouth full ultimately offends Nick, and he takes off. But I was wondering, because we do have some knowledge of wizarding world history, are there any specific events we can think of where the hat might have given a warning? I’m thinking about the goblin rebellion has to be one, for example.

Eric: Brexit is a more modern one it would have spotted.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I think probably same message, “Get along.” Maybe the Titanic sinking; we know Credence nearly died on that.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I think there would have been a few times, yeah, for sure. But it’s literally… to question… not to go back to the hat’s sentience, but it’s come up with a thousand different songs in its tenure. It’s almost as prolific as Taylor Swift. That’s how impressive it is.

Laura: Does it leave tons of easter eggs that the students obsess over all year to try and predict what the next song is going to be or when it’s going to be dropped?

Eric: Goodness.

Laura: Because I mean, that’s what it needs to reach that Swiftie level, is my understanding.

Micah: I just love that you worked Taylor Swift into the SEO so that…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: She keeps putting out more music.

Micah: If we can do that once per episode for this year, I think we’ll be in really great shape.

Eric: Okay, I’m going to mention Chappell next week.

Micah: Now, to that point, though, Eric, I would like to advocate then for the Sorting Hat to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Eric: Well, I said it made a thousand songs; it doesn’t mean any of them were commercially successful.

Micah: Good? [laughs] I mean, a thousand, though…

Eric: Yeah, even if it’s low odds, a low percentage, I bet some of them are bops. I think the first… the one we see in Harry’s first year is an absolute banger.

Micah: Who do you think would induct the Sorting Hat into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

Eric: The ghost of Godric Gryffindor. It’d be like, “When I knew you, you were just my hat, and then I left, left you in charge, and look at where you’ve come.”

Laura: I don’t know. I feel like Iggy Pop is fun enough that he would do it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Right? He would do it.

Eric: Yeah. Or Slash, on a whim.

Laura: Yeah. Well, the Sorting Hat dropped its warning at a very opportune moment, because everyone has their feast, enjoys filling their bellies after a long day on the Hogwarts Express, and Dumbledore stands up to give his speech but he’s quickly interrupted just a couple of minutes in by Umbridge with that insufferable “Hem-hem” that we all hate to hear, so prepare for that for the rest of this edition of Chapter by Chapter. And she also gave a speech that can be deeply analyzed, and Hermione seems to be the only one who’s paying enough attention to do it. Fortunately for Harry and Ron, she’s able to explain everything to them.

Eric: She’s on fire. It’s kind of like she’s their ChatGPT summary of some of this; you can just copy and paste long bits of info. But it seems like most the school… this isn’t just in their immediate circle; most of the school is also struggling. I think Ernie Mac’s eyes are glazed over too.

Laura: Yeah, and that’s by design, right? I mean, her entire speech is double speak, like, “Progress for progress’s sake ought to be prohibited.” There’s so much of what she says that’s just contradictory word salad, and that’s by design. It was intended to be intentionally difficult to track and follow and understand and to actually have the effect that it ultimately has on everybody except Hermione, and I think that’s exactly why Umbridge doesn’t care that nobody’s paying attention to her, because she’s kind of getting to fly under the radar, right? The Ministry at this point knows that they can’t quite say the quiet part out loud; they know that they have to be more political and covert about it at this point, and I think her being boring and confusing to listen to is by design.

Eric: That is a really good point also. I mean, it would be bad enough that she seemed, to most of the school, to interrupt Dumbledore. That was bad enough that he was about to send them on their way, and she took… and he gave an inch and she took a mile, as far as that. Really, that alone… I mean, if Grubbly-Plank did that, Harry would be calling for her blood. I mean, seriously.

Laura: I mean, I think a lot of people would. I think the thing with Umbridge is a lot of people don’t know who she is.

Eric: Right.

Laura: So there’s a bit of astonishment, like, “Does this lady know who she just interrupted?”

Eric: Being nonplussed, and her fake sweetness. I think kids have a knack for detecting when an adult is being fake with you, and I think that some of that is clearly already coming through to, if not the whole student body, definitely to Harry. There’s something too sickly sweet about her that would, I think, put Harry off even if he didn’t recognize her from the trial that he just went through where she tried to get him expelled.

Micah: And that’s an important part of it, though, too, because that allows Hermione to connect the dots.

Eric: Yes.

Micah: And I think even under normal circumstances she would still be paying attention to what this woman is saying, but she pays it extra careful attention because Harry says that, in fact, Umbridge was a part of the trial. And Laura, going back to something you were talking about before, she is telling you who she is by not telling you who she is almost. It’s a very nice facade that she’s able to put up. And I think for a lot of the students – it was mentioned how one was staring blankly, I’m sure more than one, but a lot of the other ones are kind of making fun of her – they don’t realize the challenge that is standing in front of them, or who this person is ultimately going to become just a few chapters from now, how sinister, how evil this person actually is. And that goes to the sugary sweetness you were talking about; I think that’s the part that they can latch on to as kids and make fun of, and some of them do that.

Eric: Yeah. I think Dumbledore really plays this pitch perfectly in this chapter – I can already hear Andrew cheering in the editing room about this – but his response to Umbridge’s entire speech is polite applause, and he tries to get it going for everyone else. He cannot be seen to then immediately try and warn the student body about her or anything. They’re sort of on their own, but not in a “Dumbledore is neglectful” way, but in a “Dumbledore’s hands are directly tied” sort of way to suss out what kind of person Umbridge is and what her true intentions are. They’ll find out soon enough, to Laura’s point, but Dumbledore has to allow her here and has to allow her to do pretty much anything she wants, and that alone should make everyone uncomfortable.

Micah: I’m interested, though, what would have happened if he would have told her, “Excuse me, I’m not done yet.” And I agree with you, he has to let her play her hand here; if he does choose to interrupt her or tell her to sit down and shut up, that’s not going to go over well, and it’s not going to be a great look for him because nobody yet really knows who Dolores Umbridge is.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And Dumbledore has already gotten so much negative publicity. If she runs back to Cornelius and it ends up in the Daily Prophet that Dumbledore allegedly body-slammed a Ministry official for interrupting him in the Great Hall…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … it would just be too much and his career would be over.

Eric: Here’s the thing: Dumbledore’s student approval rating has to be an all time low, too, because of that same gossip. If you look at what happens with Seamus and Harry at the end of the chapter, if you pedal that backwards a little bit, if Dumbledore had put any toes out of line or behaved in a cavalier sort of way, even some of his students, the ones that have been at Hogwarts for years, would turn against him because it would make him seem more reckless and more unhinged and more not with it and together, the way everyone’s saying that he’s not. So he really, I think, is starting the year off with the lowest approval rating, and has to really be careful.

Laura: Yeah. Does he ever get it back? Is there ever a point after this where Dumbledore has the same level of respect amongst the student body as he had pre-Goblet of Fire?

Eric: Maybe in the very next year, because he finally hires some teachers that people like to do the subjects that people like. And everyone remembers how awful Umbridge was, so that benefits Dumbledore for navigating that successfully the previous year.

Micah: And Voldemort returns. I think that vindicates him on some level.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: I think the students probably who all along didn’t like Dumbledore don’t necessarily turn over a new leaf and grow fond of him, but maybe some who were questioning fall back in line a little bit. But just look at what happens after his fall from the Astronomy tower and at his funeral; clearly, it’s well-attended and he’s well-acknowledged.

Laura: Let’s talk about the Harry and Seamus fight. Once they get back up to their dormitory, Harry just wants to go to sleep. Harry is tired.

Micah: He’s had a day.

Eric: Well, to be fair, yeah.

Laura: And I mean, his fellow students have been staring at him and clearly talking about him every chance they can get. He’s uncomfortable, he’s tired, he’s had a long day, he wants to go to bed.

Eric: Well, Laura, before we get there, I actually had a question that I wanted to ask you guys. He has the opportunity to maybe help Ron and Hermione. There was a split second where I thought… because Ron is surprised. Hermione is like, “Ron, this is us. We have to lead the first years to the dormitory.” And Ron is like, “Who? Oh, yeah.” But they could have maybe turned to Harry and say, “Harry, I know you’re not technically a prefect. Would you like to help us?” He could have stuck around. What ends up happening is the first time an 11-year-old looks at him funny – or maybe somebody who’s 13 or 12 – he immediately resolves to leave and take secret passageways the whole way up to the castle. So he’s in his head. But would it have gone over differently if somebody had said, “Harry, can you actually help us with these kids?” or something like that? Maybe…

Micah: I think it’s important, though, the point you bring up about him taking the secret passages, because that shows just what kind of state of mind he’s in…

Eric: He doesn’t want to be…

Micah: … that he’s really not wanting to engage with anybody, that he’s using… whether it’s the map, whether it’s his cloak… I don’t know that they get specific, but he knows these passageways anyway, and he’s able to navigate it such that he really doesn’t have to interact with anybody.

Eric: He is his father’s son.

Micah: [laughs] Seamus just adds fuel to the fire at this point.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It’s been a long day.

Laura: It has. And Harry gets to his dorm, and of course, he finds some of his dorm mates there. Neville is there; so are Dean and Seamus. And Harry asks how Dean’s summer was, and Dean says, “Oh, my summer was great. Seamus’s, though, his was pretty rough,” and Harry goes to ask what happened, and Seamus kind of awkwardly says, “You happened, man. My mom didn’t want me to come back to Hogwarts because of you,” because his mom had absorbed the narrative from the Daily Prophet that Harry was lying or crazy, that Dumbledore was old and forgetful, and that none of this stuff with Voldemort had happened.

Eric: Oh, man.

Laura: So this leads to quite a blowup between the two of them, with Seamus feeling like Harry is attacking his mother and Harry feeling attacked by a woman that he’s seen once in person before, and then Seamus, of course, feels like he needs to rise to the occasion to defend his mother’s honor. Harry doesn’t handle escalation very well, and he doesn’t here, but I understand why; he’s been dealing with this all summer. He went through this trial, thought he wasn’t going to be allowed to come back to Hogwarts, got through that, had to deal with everything at Grimmauld Place, gets here, and the first thing he’s greeted by in his room, which is supposed to be his safe space, is, “Yo, my mom thinks – and therefore I think – you’re a nutter.” That sucks.

Eric: It’s a lot to put on Harry. It’s “You and Dumbledore are the reason that my life is hard.” It’s unfair. I think there was a more constructive way that Seamus could have said it, like, “I’m not getting along with my mom because I almost couldn’t come back to Hogwarts, even despite my desire for learning. She’s been reading the paper, and to be honest, I’m uncertain how I feel about you.” It’s not a nicer message, but it’s a little bit… it’s a lot less teenage boy to do something different than what he does.

Micah: So is that what you think the root of the issue is, is a disagreement between Seamus and his mom about Harry?

Eric: No, I think that Seamus is deeply curious what happens to… that’s why, after this immediate blowup, he does ask Harry, “Hey, what did happen?”

Micah: Which is the million dollar question that keeps coming up throughout Order of the Phoenix, but it’s really not going to satiate anybody, really. There’s nothing that Harry can say from his experience in the graveyard that is going to really change anybody’s opinion, in my mind.

Eric: Right, it makes Harry think that he’s coming up short here. And he even acknowledges that at the end of last year he was distraught, and there were only a couple of days, and he didn’t get to tell everybody the full thing. But there is no “full thing,” really, other than what Dumbledore said, so it’s either that was good enough for you or it wasn’t. And it seems like with the addition of the stuff that the Daily Prophet is putting, fewer people are okay with taking Dumbledore’s word for it.

Micah: The important thing, though, that comes from this is that it shows Harry he doesn’t always have the support of those within his own House, and it’s going to become a larger theme about loyalty and choosing sides of this war as we move forward. Now, this is a very smaller example of that, with probably not as many implications because it’s resolved by the end of this book for the most part, but there are going to be people who are going to fall on both sides of the aisle here, and it may not always be the characters that Harry, or we, anticipate. And I like to think that there’s more to this story, though, than what Seamus is actually sharing. I know that he probably has a strong desire to support his mother’s position, and certainly once she gets insulted by Harry, he has every right to defend her. But one thing that I remembered and I find to be somewhat ironic… and I’m going to call Seamus and his mother a bunch of hypocrites, because in the previous book, both of them could give two rats’ you-know-whats about what the Ministry thought of their decked-out shamrock tent at the Quidditch World Cup. So interesting how now they’re all lovey-dovey with Cornelius and kissing the Ministry’s behind in this particular situation. So whenever it suits you, please, fall in line.

Eric: It’s a crying shame. Even Ron brings up that they met Seamus’s mom; “We liked your mother,” he says, “last year when we met her. Thought she was all right.” It’s a shame that it should have degraded and devolved into this personal angle. But ultimately, it’s just the only thing causing this is nothing Harry did. It’s not even anything Dumbledore did. It’s the Ministry that’s unwilling to acknowledge that things are as bad as they are, and if they just told people, then we could all be facing the real challenge ahead of us, and not what’s being lied about.

Laura: Yeah. Well, Micah, I think you have a “What if?” for us. Did you want to get to that? Or do you have any other of these notes you wanted to touch on?

Micah: Yeah, let’s do it.

Eric: Ooh, okay, I’m going to play the sound effect. Get ready.

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Micah: What if Seamus moved the hell out?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Now I’m playing Billy Joel. [laughs]

Micah: Oh, yeah. Great song, by the way. I thought a little bit through this. Who cares, number one, if he moved out? Nobody cares about Seamus.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Right. Is this a serious question, Micah? Is this a serious…?

Micah: It’s a kind of fun “What if,” okay? There’s an extra bed. I mean, that’s a huge bonus. If I were Ron, Dean, Neville, and Harry, I’d be like, “Dude, go.” They’re fifth years; they need the space. They don’t mind an extra bed.

Eric: You know that Ron would put his feet on the other bed.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: Because he’s tall; he’s always growing taller…

Micah: Who do we think would need to sign off on this? Because I’m all for it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: McGonagall?

Eric: Well, there has to actually… yeah, it’s McGonagall. There actually has to be a way to mediate these kinds of disagreements. I mean, maybe not this specific disagreement.

Micah: It can’t be the only time this has happened. Surely, this has come up before. I mean, think about the people who probably live with Fred and George.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, any college dorm roommates. You can be relocated. It takes a little bit, but you can do it.

Laura: I just wonder where, because there really aren’t too many options unless they’re going to move him into the fourth years’ dorm or the sixth years’ dorm, which probably wouldn’t be fun.

Eric: I just want to point out the complete fallibility and inconsistency of class sizes at Hogwarts and student populace size. Even in this chapter, it is said that there is a huge line of people waiting to be Sorted, and it takes a long time for that line to go down in this chapter, and yet, from Harry’s year there were five Gryffindors; you can name them all, and they’re all in this room, so it just doesn’t make sense. And they can expand any space with magic, so there has to be room and beds for everybody to spare to have private apartments, even.

Laura: I mean, they have those sleeping bags they used in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Eric: I would love…

Micah: There’s couches in the common room.

Eric: Oh my God.

Micah: I’m sure people have slept on them. So IntoTheWickedWood/Becky in the Discord makes a really good point: “Maybe Seamus feels a bit unsafe in a room with Harry without knowing for sure what really happened or what’s happening with him. He might be a brave Gryffindor, but it’s harder to be brave in the face of the unknown.”

Laura: Yeah, well, and to be honest here, I totally understand why Seamus’s mom was scared. I mean, they’re getting misinformation.

Micah: A student died.

Laura: They’re getting misinformation from their government, and she’s worried about sending her son back to school with someone who the Ministry is saying is off his rocker and potentially dangerous.

Micah: The real thing is somebody who came out of the maze with the dead body. I think that’s the real issue here.

Eric: I think, as Michelle points out in our Discord, maybe Seamus feels betrayed, too. He’s a close enough friend to Harry to expect an explanation and have that be okay, but it’s just that Harry has been picked and prodded at the entire summer. And I think there is a world in which Harry would take the time and actually explain it, but he’s tired of answering.

Micah: Seamus ain’t even close to the fourth wheel, okay? He’s got at least a handful of people in front of him.

Laura: Honestly, I think Luna is in front of him. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah. Well, speaking of people who are close to Harry, Neville. Let’s talk a little bit about him. Because this moment for him is a defining moment, I think, in the series, standing up, much like he does in Sorcerer’s Stone, but this time, in front of the rest of his dorm mates to voice his support for Harry, voice his grandmother’s support for Harry and Dumbledore. I just thought it was a really cool moment.

Laura: Yeah, I loved it.

Eric: And there’s this talk about Seamus’s mom, but Neville’s gran knows what’s up. Every time Neville’s gran shows up in these books, any mention of her – the way McGonagall talks about her once or twice – you just see that she is a no-nonsense woman who has her head on straight. But here’s the other aspect there that nobody’s talking about, and Neville, we don’t know who his parents were yet; it’s coming later in this book. But if your child was one of the main foils to Voldemort, and they died, and your grandson is now going to a school where Voldemort’s return is not being publicized, you would take that seriously. Augusta Longbottom is taking it seriously because she lost a son and daughter-in-law, or daughter and son-in-law – I think probably son and daughter-in-law – to Voldemort. She’s not about to discredit or discount somebody like Dumbledore saying he’s returned. You just can’t fool that woman.

Laura: Well, and she probably feels like the safest place for Neville is wherever Dumbledore is, so she’s probably eager for him to go back. But it is so interesting, Eric, that you point out the differences in perception between people whose families either were or were not impacted directly by the first wizarding war. The people who had close relatives die the first time around are like, “Nope, I get it. Feels like last time.”

Eric: Yeah. Or people in the Order, even more specifically, would have gained that trust of Dumbledore, that extra trust that really helps. But yeah, I mean, Augusta just knows that it’s not anything to ignore. She’s seeing the signs.

Micah: And speaking of Dumbledore, I thought it was very emotionally mature of Harry at the end of this chapter to notice that maybe he’s going through the same thing as Harry, right? Maybe Dumbledore is experiencing a little bit of what – or maybe a lot of what – Harry is going through in this particular moment. We know about the expulsion from the… what is it, the Wizengamot?

Eric: Oh, yeah. And it’s funny how Seamus is citing that as like, “Well, he was kicked off the Wizengamot because he’s losing his marbles,” and it’s like, “Name another member of the Wizengamot. I dare you.”

Laura: Right.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Like, you really care about this? Like, seriously.

Laura: But also, did you even know what the Wizengamot was?

Eric: Before you saw that Dumbledore had been kicked off of it? Yeah. I hate it so much.

Laura: [laughs] Well, we need to take one more quick break before we come back with our question of the week. Sit tight and we will be right back.

[Ad break]


Question of the Week


Laura: All right, y’all, so time to get into some questions. First one, our replacement for the old MVP of the Week segment. I have a question that’s actually inspired, Eric, by a point you made earlier in the episode about Hermione being the ChatGPT for Harry and Ron. So what would we want HermioneGPT to TLDR for us? TLDR stands for too long; didn’t read.

Eric: [laughs] So what is Hermione going to summarize? So for me, it’s going to be Professor Binns’s History of Magic lessons. I feel like there’s probably some good info there, but do I want to spend a whole class period listening to a dead guy drone on about it? No. HermioneGPT, please deliver us and save me that time. Give me my 45 minutes back.

Micah: I want her to give me the short summary of the conversation that took place between Professor McGonagall and Professor Sprout while Umbridge was giving her speech.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Oooh, that’s a very good one.

Eric: That’s a good one, yeah.

Laura: I like that. I said my Ancient Runes homework, just because I’ve always imagined… when I’ve thought about Hogwarts courses and which ones would probably be the hardest for me, for some reason Ancient Runes seems like there’s lots of calculations involved, and that’s not my jam, so I think I would have HermioneGPT help me with that.

Eric: Love it. Yeah, that was a good thought process there.


Lynx Line


Laura: And now we’re going to turn to our Lynx Line, which is our newest benefit on Patreon. Thanks to those who support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast for answering this week’s question. So this week’s question is related, again, to the Umbridge theme of the chapter: In this chapter, Umbridge not so subtly announces her intentions to reform the curricula of Hogwarts. So this week we asked which class, lesson, or teacher would benefit most from changes to improve the educational experience? And which changes would you make to their subject and how it is taught? And we added a caveat here: Please don’t pick Hagrid. We rag on him enough.

Micah: Aww.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I don’t know if we spent enough time on it on this episode; I was expecting a lot more time devoted to how the Ravenclaws are way justified in disliking him.

Micah: There’s plenty of other episodes where we’ve ragged on Hagrid.

Eric: Okay, all right, all right, then I will be silent. But the first one on the Lynx Line, the first response we got on our Lynx Line from Ning Xi, says,

“The grading of Divination seems extremely subjective and would probably benefit from some sort of grading rubric. I think recent world events is proving learning history is important, so minimizing sleeping students would help greatly.”

Laura: Good call.

Eric: Yeah, I agree with that. Any of these nebulous grading schemes have to go.

Micah: Carly says,

“I do feel like the first years’ flying lesson should be reformed a bit. It’s kind of like driver’s ed but with 11-year-olds, and they basically let them drive a car their first day.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

“They should go through an instructional class first, pass a written test, then only after all that would they be allowed on a worn-out wobbly hand-me-down stick that can go hundreds of feet in the air.”

Micah: So I agree with that, Carly.

Laura: That’s a good one. Honestly, I’m kind of surprised because we know that we find out in Book 7, isn’t it, that Harry had a broomstick that was designed for toddlers that didn’t lift him very high? I’m kind of surprised that for 11-year-olds learning to fly for the first time, there isn’t something similar.

Eric: Oh yeah, like training brooms, basically. Yeah, that’s a good point. The fact that Neville can get on his broom and then all of a sudden be throttled off and put in mortal peril is well an oversight.

Laura: Stef asks,

“What do they learn in Transfiguration besides turning an animal into a goblet? Hermione seems to be the only one who uses transfiguration outside of school, and we all know she likes ‘just a bit of light reading.'”

Eric: [laughs] Ah, this is such a good one.

Laura: It is.

Eric: I can’t believe Stef came for McGonagall, but I think it’s a point. What use is this to the wider world? And can we make, or find, more worthy reasons to use Transfiguration? It’s whenever we would go to a class for real and say, “Where will we use this, trigonometry, in the real world?” And there really isn’t a time where you have to figure out the area under a curve in real life unless you’ve gone into a very specific field, so for Transfiguration, yeah, the kind of the things that we see them doing, I think that’s very fair.

Laura: Is it? I mean, isn’t becoming an Animagus…? Isn’t that under the Transfiguration umbrella? Did we ever get an answer to that?

Eric: Which one in 40 million people have ever done.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. But we also learn about Gamp’s Laws of Elemental Transfiguration; that’s another use. But again, Hermione is the one who brings that up. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s interesting what the base most level of Transfiguration’s uses is. Interesting. Rachel adds,

“One subject I’d like to add to Hogwarts is health. Not only because I love Madam Pomfrey, but I think a class on basic remedies and treatments would benefit students. It’d also be an opportunity to teach the cost/rules of magic on the body, which would be some cool world-building.”

I love this.

Laura: I do too. This is really smart. This is actually one of the best justifications I’ve heard for Hogwarts having a health class. We’ve talked about that before, but it’s usually in the context of, like, “Hogwarts needs sex ed because these are a bunch of teenagers.”

Eric: Right.

Laura: And they don’t have that, and that just seems like a miss, as they say. But I love this idea of expanding it to say, “Here’s how you take care of yourself, but here’s also how you can remedy things if you accidentally cast a jinx, a jinx backfires on you, and you need to be able to do something to quickly address the immediate damage so that you can get down to the hospital wing.” Stuff like that would be really helpful and cool.

Eric: Yeah, and it would explain how a Healer becomes a Healer. At least if you were given the most basic level of understanding during Hogwarts, then I could see the path, I guess, towards that as a career.

Micah: AJ brings up Muggle Studies, saying, “We don’t see it, but Mr. Weasley’s understanding is a little underdeveloped for a Ministry expert in the area.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think we see that quite a bit, actually.

Eric: What, Muggle Studies?

Micah: Oh, is he saying we don’t see Muggle Studies? I see. The way I read it is we don’t see Mr. Weasley’s understanding being underdeveloped.

Eric: Look, I don’t want to speak ill of the dead, but it is unclear what Charity Burbage’s whole curriculum and agenda is at Hogwarts, and it’s possible that she’s failing the wizarding public as a whole, yes.

Laura: I feel like if it were bad, Hermione would say something.

Eric: Oooh!

Laura: Because of course Hermione takes Muggle Studies, because she has to take everything.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: And I’m not entirely sure… do we even know that Muggle Studies existed at Hogwarts when Arthur was there?

Eric: Yeah, that’s true.

Laura: Yeah, maybe not.

Micah: Arthur seems to have just fallen into a very niche role at the Ministry.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: All good points.

Laura: I agree. Well, we do have several more submissions, but I will just preface this by saying everything else is hate for Snape and Potions, and Binns and History of Magic.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: So getting into the Potions hate, Lindsay says,

“Potions is an OSHA nightmare. Poor lighting, no ventilation for fumes, chemicals are not properly labeled with hazard warnings, safety goggles and dragon hide gloves not being worn. Where’s the safety shower? Where are the safety data sheets? Hazardous waste spill plans? Does the Potions Master ensure students have basic math skills year one to adequately follow instructions?”

[Eric sighs]

Laura: No, they definitely don’t.

Eric: Every one of these is a good point that I’d love to write a dissertation on. [laughs] But for me, the math and the conversions of grams to liters to… again, measuring ingredients; that is so important in baking – I mean, potions.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: There’s really no substitute. And not only are they working with hazardous chemicals, but the teacher is threatening half the time to give you the hazardous chemical that you’ve created! If you’re Neville. And Roshni says,

“The whole class is ‘Here’s a recipe. Try it.’ And Snape knows all these tricks and stuff, but he doesn’t teach it to them? What’s the point in that? Is there any technique taught at all? It just doesn’t seem effective to me.”

You’re right, Snape just brow beats everyone. And maybe a few people get to learn that way, but most people probably do not.

Micah: Michelle says that,

“Snape may be a highly skilled wizard and potion maker, but there should be no room for bullying in the classroom. His knowledge and high standards should make him a great teacher, but his inability to create a safe space for learning makes him completely ineffective.”

Yeah, we see that a couple times in this series with certain students.

Laura: Oh, yeah. Stef says,

“It felt like an entirely different subject with Slughorn teaching it, as he made it open, engaging, and integrated the teachings into their lived experiences. A fun idea could be partnering up with Herbology on a garden-to-cauldron project.”

That’s so cool, because those subjects do go hand in hand.

Eric: There is a lot of overlap, for sure, between several of these subjects. And Julianne adds, regarding potions, “Any decent educator knows that encouraging students and building positive relationships are some of the most important aspects of helping students learn.” Guess Snape didn’t get that memo, but then again, he was never trained as a teacher.

Micah: Fair point. All right, it is time for some Binns bashing.

Eric: Oooh.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We heard from Xavier, who said, “This is my first Lynx Line!”

Well, welcome.

“I think that if it was taught properly, History of Magic could be a blast. If the teacher was engaged in the lessons and brought in goblins or people that study history in the magical world, it could be super fun. Also, if you did projects on wizards, goblins, or giant wars, it could be a blast. It’s all about the teaching style. I think it has a lot of potential.”

Laura: Absolutely.

Eric: You know, the only reason we have Binns as an educator is because Dumbledore never hired another. He was like, “Oh, oh, I’m going to have to hire a new… wait, wait, no, he’s a ghost. Oh, thank God. We’ll just put the ghost and let the ghost keep doing it. It was good enough for him during life. We don’t even need to pay him. Let’s just let him…” We could have had a fun, young, hip History of Magic teacher, somebody to shake things up.

Laura: Yeah. Morgan says,

“I would absolutely dread his class, and I’m someone who actually loves history. For students who didn’t grow up in the wizarding world and never heard about magical historical events firsthand, his lessons must be a real struggle. There needs to be more interaction. How about class debates or discussions? Allowing students to present on topics of interest would make the subject so much more engaging. Even a bit of peer-to-peer teaching could help break up the monotony.”

Yeah, I mean, again, we’re hearing lots of suggestions that would be way better than what we get.

Eric: I’m so glad we asked this. These are all very useful, for sure.

Micah: I think for the subjects that have real world applications, a lot of this could be the author’s own experience, let’s say, perhaps with her history classes over the years, and the kinds of professors or the way the subject matter was taught. I know… I mean, any subject matter can be dry and boring, but history probably has a bad rap when it comes to that.

Eric: Yeah, for sure. Jennifer says,

“I think about how much better it could have been if Professor Binns had just made it a little more interesting or engaging for the students. The very fact that he’s a ghost could have made the class that much more exciting. He could have drifted over the class, catching people not paying attention. Knowing where we come from is how we avoid problems in the future, or so we hope.”

Micah: Eleanor says, “Okay, I’m biased. I’m a history graduate.”

Eric: [laughs] Disclaimer.

“But it’s an absolutely fascinating subject, just not when taught by someone who just drones on and on and on with dates and facts. Make it a bit more interactive. Have some debates. Explain why things happen and why they’re important. Get the ghosts who lived through it to talk about their experiences. There’s an opportunity here to make it super fun and interesting.”

Eric: Ahh!

Micah: I agree.

Laura: I love that idea.

Eric: I love the idea that Binns could network with fellow ghosts!

Laura: Yeah. I mean, clearly, Nearly Headless Nick is ready to talk about it.

Eric: There you go!

Micah: Just make sure McGonagall is not around.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, she’ll glare at you.

Laura: And finally, Emily says,

“History can be so interesting, and most students seem to sleep through this class. Hermione’s historical knowledge comes in handy many times throughout the series. If the subject was taught in a more interesting way, many students may have the same knowledge.”

It’s a good point. We wouldn’t have to necessarily only rely on Hermione.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Laura: Well, thank you so much, everyone, for participating in this week’s Lynx Line. And don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And if you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com.

Micah: And next week it will be Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Professor Umbridge.”


Quizzitch


Micah: But now it’s time for Quizzitch.

Eric: Heck yeah. First of the year.

Micah: [whispers] It’s back.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question was inspired by The Quibbler. Which UK tabloid, known for its sensationalist journalism, was founded in the year 1896 by a man who would later become First Viscount Northcliffe? Yes, it’s one of the two main tabloids in the UK, and the correct answer is The Daily Mail. 63% of people said they got it without looking it up, and I’m choosing to believe them. Correct answers were submitted by Stubby Boardman; A healthy breeze; All I want for Christmas is Tom Felton under the tree… hope you got it. Annabelle; Buff Daddy, Cornelius “Goblin-Crusher” Fudge; Eleanor; Guys, I have finals this week, and if I get over 50% on my chem final, then I will be very surprised; Kreacher’s crevices; Laura’s Quizzitch Number Hints; Oh the random things you learn as a history teacher; Patronus Seeker; Proud Hufflepuff; Ravenclaws read both the Daily Prophet AND the Quibbler to be fully informed; Shyam; The Hash-Slinging Slasher; The Sorting Hat’s New Diss Track; The Wheatbelt Warlock; The Witch Weekly of the Muggle World; This is my real name; Tipsy Elf; Uncle Vernon’s favorite newspaper; and What are those horse things?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Okay. Ah, quite a fun… I think it was two weeks of names, so there you go. And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In light of Umbridge’s long and boring speech, what is the length of the longest speech ever given in the United Kingdom, presented by Henry Peter Brougham in 1828? I need the length of the speech in hours. I’ll give you a hint: It’s more than four and less than eight.

Micah: Seven?

Eric: Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch website. Could that…? Is that Laura’s number hints, or Micah’s number hints there?

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well…

Eric: But yeah, submit your answer to us… what were you saying, Laura?

Laura: I was just going to say, well, if you get it wrong because of that, I don’t want the smoke; I didn’t say it. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, so it was Micah that said it. Submit your answer to us using the Quizzitch form, which can be found on the MuggleCast website if you’re going to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or going on MuggleCast for another reason – maybe reading some transcripts – click on “Quizzitch” for the main nav bar. Get over there that way. And thanks to all who participated in Quizzitch and are participating in our real world questions trivia rounds! Really appreciate it.

Micah: And just a few closing reminders: Be sure to check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for some more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. I know Laura, you and Pam just did the first What the Hype?! of 2025 on Onyx Storm. Is that a Pokémon spinoff?

Laura: [laughs] I can see why you would think that. So Onyx Storm is the third book in the Empyrean series, after Fourth Wing and Iron Flame, and it is coming out on January 21. So Pam and I had a guest join us, Karly from Dear Fantasy Reader Podcast, and we went over all of our most fun, most maybe controversial predictions about what we think is going to happen in Onyx Storm. It was such a fun episode, and yeah, by the time this episode of MuggleCast is out, it will be up on the What the Hype?! feed, so definitely check it out if you want to see what we think Onyx Storm has in store for us.

Micah: Yeah. And don’t forget, all these shows are brought to you by Muggles like you. So listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 – that is two zero – years.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, I’m old again. My beard.

Micah: There are several great ways, of course, for you to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast shirts, hoodies, glassware, and hats. Apple Podcasts subscribers can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And for even more benefits, you can pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, Lynx Line participation, a physical gift, a video message from one of the four of us made just for you, and much, much more. If you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and leave a five star review in your favorite podcast app. And finally, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. That does it for Episode 688. We made it. Andrew will be back next week; don’t worry.

Eric: I’ll try not to lose all of the recording.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Micah.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Micah: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Happy New Year.

Eric: Bye! Happy New Year!