Transcript #703

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #703, Snape’s True Colors (OOTP Chapter 24, Occlumency)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: We are your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books, the movies, the theme parks, the forthcoming TV show, so make sure you follow our show in your favorite podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And this week, we’ll be discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, “Occlumency.” And to help us with today’s discussion, we’re joined by one of our listeners and Slug Club patrons, Nicole. Welcome, Nicole, to the show.

Nicole: Thanks for having me.

Andrew: Yeah, you’re welcome. Can we get your fandom ID?

Nicole: Sure thing. So favorite book is a tie between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix. Favorite movie, I have Goblet of Fire right now; could be because we just did a rewatch of that one. Hogwarts House is Slytherin, and Patronus is a pheasant. And for my favorite portrait, I said Sir Cadogan because we get to see him three times, so that’s fun.

Andrew: Gets a lot of attention, yeah. Well, I’m glad we have you on while we’re going Chapter by Chapter through one of your favorite books.

Nicole: I’m excited.

Andrew: Yeah, thanks again for joining us, and thanks for your support on Patreon; we really appreciate it. We actually were in a Slug Club hangout on our Patreon the other day when I was looking at upcoming cohosts and you were next in the queue, so for the first time ever, live on Zoom, I was like, “Nicole, you want to come on this week?” And she was like, “Yeah, perfect timing.”

Nicole: Heck, yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, listeners, if you love MuggleCast too and want to help us keep things running as smoothly as the Knight Bus on a countryside road…? I don’t know if that works, Micah. But visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge today; you’ll get instant access to two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month, plus ad-free episodes of MuggleCast, a new physical gift every year, the chance to cohost the show one day like Nicole is today, and so much more. We could not do this without you, and we appreciate you more than Sirius and Snape appreciate a good dig at each other. Now that one works.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, I figured with the countryside road, it’s smoother than the rest of the roads that the Knight Bus drives on, but I see your point.

Andrew: Yeah. [singing] “Country roads, take me home…” Laura, what’s coming up in bonus MuggleCast this week?

Laura: So this week in bonus MuggleCast, we’re going to be doing an expanded, deeper dive “Max that” discussion. So specifically, we’ve each picked scenes from Order of the Phoenix that did not make it into the movies that we want to see make it into the TV show, and we have some very specific opinions about how we think these things should be shot, which actors should be in them, what the tone should be, so we’re going to talk through all of it together this week in bonus. Definitely head on over to Patreon to check that out.

Andrew: Awesome. Other great ways to support us: You can pick up merch at MuggleCastMerch.com. I’m wearing the Muggle cap today. Micah is wearing our 19th anniversary T-shirt, available in the overstock store. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can send an owl to a friend about the show if they need some Harry Potter friends in their life. And then I just mentioned the overstock store; go to MuggleMillennial.etsy.com and you can pick up the “19 Years Later” T-shirt while supplies last. We printed those for patrons, and we have some extras, so now is the time to grab them because once they are gone, they are truly gone. And we loved creating this shirt because it’s a special year for MuggleCast. 19 years later; it’s our epilogue year.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: All right, time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, “Occlumency.” And Eric still prepared a little look back for us; the last time we discussed this chapter was on Episode 461 of MuggleCast, on April 14, 2020, and the episode was titled “Snape’s Secrets,” so let’s go back in time and listen to that now.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 461.

Micah: What I don’t really think Snape or Dumbledore – particularly Dumbledore – considered was the effect this was going to have on Harry after each lesson, right?

Andrew: Yeah, his poor brain.

Micah: He’s drained after this encounter with Snape, and Snape doesn’t do anything. Snape probably could whip up a cocktail potion for him.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: He’d be feeling really good afterwards.

Andrew: Or Dumbledore could have said, “Don’t do that, and let Harry…”

Micah: “Let Harry suffer.”

Andrew: “… feel the effects of this so he’s more prepared.” I know, let Harry suffer. Let Harry suffer more. Snape should have at least given him a head massage. That could have been a little helpful.

Eric: [laughs] “Come here, Potter.”

Andrew: You know when you’re getting your hair cut and they wash your hair for you, and then they give you a head massage while they wash your hair? That’s what Snape should have done for Harry.

Laura: [laughs] Can you imagine walking in on that scene and being like, “Ooo-kay.”

[Andrew laughs]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: Well, our chapter begins back at Grimmauld Place, so we’ve gone from St. Mungo’s back to Grimmauld Place, and I wanted to start the discussion really around Harry, because he is very hesitant about going back to Hogwarts, and little does he know he’s about to get another reason to dread it even more. But has there ever been a time that we can recall that Harry didn’t want to go back to school?

Laura: No.

Andrew: Not in the series so far. And I kind of think it speaks to just how serious things are getting at Hogwarts and within the wizarding world.

Micah: Yeah, and things are definitely winding down at Grimmauld Place. It’s noted that Sirius is becoming far less cheerful, because not only are the holidays over, but as we just said, the kids are going back to school, and that means an empty house for good old Sirius. And the last time we encountered him – and I know he was interrupted, it seemed like, during a bit of a bender when the kids showed up that night…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But this is hard for him. I mean, he’s clearly struggling with the isolation, and it’s kind of unfortunate Snape throws it in his face in this chapter too.

Andrew: A lot of us experience this type of feeling maybe every year, multiple times a year: the end of holiday blues, end of vacation blues. You spend some quality time with friends and family, and now you’re going back to the real world, and it sucks. This is what Sirius is experiencing here.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and Sirius’s real world sucks.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It really does. For everyone else, it’s “Ugh, I have to go back to work. I have to go back to school. I have to go back to responsibility.” And to Sirius, it’s “I have to go back to basically just being a placeholder in Grimmauld Place.”

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: It sucks.

Andrew: Placeholder Place.

Nicole: I think the phrase “childhood trauma” gets overused a lot, but in this case, poor Sirius is stuck in the childhood home he tried to leave and never go back to.

Micah: It’s a really great point. And he’s stuck there with Kreacher. And Kreacher has been MIA for parts of the last couple of chapters, but he does make an appearance. He was up in the attic; Sirius found him doing Kreacher things up there. Harry seems, though, to be pretty suspicious of Kreacher. He seems to almost have a sixth sense as it relates to him, and he’s hesitant to let Sirius know about this, but I’m wondering if he should have shared some of his suspicions with maybe another member of the Order, because Kreacher seems to be in a little bit of a better mood, it’s noted, and he’s staring down Harry at times. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, which should be a red flag.

Micah: A huge red flag.

Andrew: Yeah. Do you think part of it, Harry’s being able to read Kreacher, stems from his relationship that he already has with Dobby? Because Dobby has already been up to some mischievous behavior in the series so far.

Nicole: I think it’s classic Harry, where he just notices the house-elf. The lesser creatures in the Harry Potter world, Harry always has an eye out for them, so it’s kind of… I feel like Harry should have said something, and it’s something that I’m not surprised Harry noticed on a reread.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Same. I think, too, this all really speaks to the fact that a lot of people who are really, really embedded in wizarding society, and don’t tend to question why things are the way they are because that’s just all they’ve ever known, tend to underestimate magical creatures. And we see this with Sirius and Kreacher; Sirius makes a lot of assumptions about what Kreacher can and can’t do. Harry tries to correct him at one point, doesn’t he? When Sirius is like, “No, he can’t go talk to anyone else,” and Harry is like, “Well, Dobby came and talked to me. He had to punish himself afterwards, but he still did it.” So I think there’s also just a massive lack of understanding amongst wizards about how house-elves operate, and I think they make a lot of assumptions about that, which in this case proves fatal for Sirius.

Micah: Yeah, and Kreacher is certainly cutting some corners by going to Bellatrix, as we’ll later learn. She’s no longer Bellatrix Black; she’s Bellatrix Lestrange, but still part of the family, and Kreacher is more than willing – to your point, Laura – to likely betray the oath that he has to Sirius. But we don’t know; he could be punishing himself, and he likely is. Well, speaking of individuals in Sirius’s home that he really does not like, we learn in this chapter that Professor Snape has shown up and he wants to see Harry, and we get the classic Sirius versus Snape showdown. And we’re going to do a bonus MuggleCast where we’re talking about Maxing something. We don’t get this in the movie.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And I would have loved to have seen Gary Oldman and Alan Rickman go at each other in this particular scene.

Laura: Yeah. Honestly, there’s a lot in this chapter that we don’t get in the movies. And I mean, even the way Occlumency is covered in the movies doesn’t… I don’t really feel like it fully connects all the threads narratively, so that’ll be something I’m looking forward to seeing redone on the show.

Andrew: Micah, you do have a note here that made me think of something else. You said the two are “bickering like exes.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And it made me think that these are two people who, in a way, kind of are exes, sort of, because they’re still tied to one another. They’re still stuck with one another. These two have been enemies for years and years, and they both lost people they loved – James for Sirius, Lily for Snape – and I think that some of the tension still comes from that, which is really sad.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a really good point, Andrew. And they’re looking at any opportunity to throw shade in each other’s direction, and so that made me wonder… Harry walks in on this, and he almost would have been better to just turn around and walk right back out of the kitchen, because who’s really the adult here? Honestly, I think it’s Harry in this moment.

Andrew: I think it’s Harry too.

Laura: Yeah, agreed.

Andrew: It’s definitely not Snape. It might be Sirius, but yeah, I think I put Harry in first as well.

Micah: Well, especially a little bit later on in this scene where Harry is physically getting between the two of them.

Andrew: Yeah, breaking up the fight, or trying to.

Nicole: It was getting me a-child-of-divorced-parents vibes, having to get in the middle.

Micah: Andrew, you said maybe it’s Sirius. Well, I think he’s being a good, responsible godfather to Harry, because he’s sitting there in the room with him as Snape is letting Harry know that he is going to be taking Occlumency lessons this year. And Harry has no idea what this even means, so the fact that there is an adult in the room, I think, is a good thing.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Agreed. A parent or guardian should always be present for this kind of thing. But we also see later during Harry’s first Occlumency lesson that Snape really relishes the opportunity to get Harry alone and bully him one-on-one, so yeah, I think Sirius was right to join Harry here.

Andrew: Anytime there’s two big power players in the Harry Potter series interacting with one another – Sirius and Snape in this example – it’s just on-the-edge-of-my-seat reading that I can’t get enough of. Forget the kids; I’m all about the adults in this series.

Laura: Yeah. Well, Snape is really like a fish out of water at Grimmauld Place, too. He’s in the Order, but I think most of the Order is looking sideways at him. I think there’s a lot of suspicion of Snape, and he’s also obviously not very well-liked, so anytime he shows up at Grimmauld Place, you know that sparks are going to fly.

Micah: But arguably, he’s doing some of the hardest work of the Order.

Laura: No one knows about it, but he is. [laughs]

Andrew: Don’t tell Sirius that. Sirius ain’t gonna be happy about that.

Micah: Well, Sirius does have a really good question for Snape; he asks why Dumbledore couldn’t teach Harry Occlumency. And look, Dumbledore knows that these two, Harry and Snape, do not like each other.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Oooh, they’re going to tussle.”

Micah: And he is forcing Harry to do something that he knows he’s going to hate without really giving him a whole lot of background as to why.

Andrew: So Lupin does explain to Harry before leaving him at the Knight Bus – or after they get off the Knight Bus – Lupin says to Harry, “I know you don’t like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens,” and he also encourages Harry to work hard at it. So I’m wondering if that’s why… I mean, we know Snape is really good at this, and Lupin is reminding Harry of this, so I don’t know. That’s enough for me.

Micah: He’s also a superb asshole.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: So you kind of have to juggle the two.

Andrew: Does Lupin feel that way? [laughs]

Micah: I think he does probably on some level.

Laura: I am also going to point out, and this comes from the Harry Potter fandom wiki: “Albus Dumbledore was also an exceptional Occlumens, having been one of the few to be capable of repelling Voldemort’s Legilimency,” so…

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “The difference is, I’m busy.”

Laura: [laughs] Snape effectively says as much. He’s like, “I guess it’s his joy to be able to delegate less interesting asks to his staff.” But to be fair, I think we do find out that Dumbledore does not want to open up the potential of Voldemort penetrating Harry’s mind and realizing how close the two of them are.

Andrew: Yes! Yes.

Nicole: Oh, that’s great, but it’s like, once again we have Dumbledore, who’s brilliant, just can’t communicate a smidge here, and we would have avoided a lot of problems.

Laura: Right.

Nicole: Or I guess he could have sent Lupin as his proxy. Put Lupin in there. Someone else in the room besides Snape, Sirius, Harry. Just another party.

Micah: Well, we’re going to talk a little bit about this, but it’s also the fact that Dumbledore would likely have provided a much softer touch to this whole experience for Harry than somebody like Snape.

Andrew: Yeah, it would have been nice to have, let’s say, Lupin sitting there being kind of like a… not a teacher’s assistant, but like when a teacher is being observed in the classroom? Kind of like what we see with Umbridge, but a far better teacher sitting there. Lupin could sit there and kind of silently encourage Snape to properly educate Harry on how to practice Occlumency.

Laura: Yeah. I do feel like of all the Marauders, Lupin is the best one to try and temper Snape. I feel like Snape is the most responsive to him, so yeah, that probably would have been better.

Micah: Yeah. A couple of interesting nuggets come out of this conversation/fight between Snape and Sirius. The first is that Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius’s lapdog, and I’m wondering is there some history here that we don’t know about, that he would think that Snape would basically be subservient, in a way, to one of the Malfoys?

Laura: Well, I think if I recall correctly, Lucius was older than Snape, so he would have been a few years ahead at Hogwarts, so who knows? Lucius might have been the leader of some of the first student body to join up with the Death Eaters, and Snape could have been very taken with that idea. So it could be referring to some of that schoolboy drama that they all had together. But I also wonder if Sirius is implicitly accusing Snape of feeding intel to Lucius, because we already know Lucius exploits his wealth and connections to get what he wants, like he bought the entire Slytherin Quidditch team Nimbus 2001s a couple of years ago; he sat on the Board of Governors and heavily influenced the school. It just feels like if Snape wanted a way to put his thumb on the scale at Hogwarts, he could do that via Lucius if Lucius felt like he was going to get something out of the deal. So I think that’s what Sirius is implying here. Obviously does not end up being the case.

Micah: Part of me thinks that it’s a convenient writing device to then transition into Snape saying, “Well, speaking of dogs…”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, he does bring that up.

Micah: “Lucius recognized your dumb behind on the train platform, Sirius.” We knew that from Draco’s comments earlier on in the book.

Andrew: Well, Sirius doesn’t trust either Snape or Lucius, so if he thinks that Snape and Lucius are associating in some way, be it through the Death Eaters or however else, I could definitely understand why Sirius is trying to tie them two together. And he’s also kind of grasping for straws, because Snape does have the more important role in the Order, and Sirius is trying to convince himself that Snape isn’t the right choice for the job. So yeah, he’s going to accuse him of being Lucius’s lapdog.

Micah: So it’s now time for the kids to head off to Hogwarts, and there are some parting words between Harry and Sirius, and Harry receives a really important item from Sirius that he makes note that he’s not going to use because he doesn’t want to put his godfather in any kind of difficult situation. But there’s a really great quote – Nicole, I’m wondering if you can read it here – about how Harry was feeling about this particular situation.

Nicole: Sure thing. So “Harry had an unpleasant constricted sensation in his chest; he did not want to say goodbye to Sirius. He had a bad feeling about this parting; he did not know when they would next see each other and he felt it was incumbent upon him to say something to Sirius to stop him doing anything stupid.”

Andrew: This probably should have been one of the biggest red flags the first time that we read it. “Harry had an unpleasant sensation in his chest.” I don’t remember reading this part the first time and if it felt like a red flag to me, but major foreshadow alert.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Micah: And Laura, you had a comment here about the two-way mirror.

Laura: Oh yeah, yeah. How tragic it is, the way that the two-way mirror played out – or rather didn’t play out – because Harry ultimately doesn’t end up discovering its usefulness until it’s already too late.

Micah: Yeah, and it’s actually also noted that Sirius is described as being “grim” in this particular goodbye as well. And I thought that was another piece of foreshadowing that… really, any time that Sirius is described in this book, there is a some sort of character trait that alludes to his death, or something happens to him. I’m thinking of “When 13 sit down to dine, the first to rise is the first to die”; that happens at one point. So there are all these little hints that we’re getting that I don’t think things are going to work out too well for our buddy Sirius.

Andrew: Yeah, because on one hand, you could be reading it like, “Oh, it is the end of holiday blues; the family and friends are leaving,” like I brought brought up earlier, but really, there’s a double meaning going on here.

Laura: Yeah, and we also have to remember that Sirius is effectively still a prisoner. He got out of Azkaban, so he’s free, but the reality is he can’t go anywhere else; he can’t risk being seen. So as Nicole pointed out earlier, he is literally stuck in his childhood trauma. It’s a prison.

Andrew: And Becky, who’s listening live right now, is adding in a couple of comments concerning the Snape/Lucius relationship. She reminds us that Umbridge said during Snape’s class inspections that “Lucius always spoke highly of you, Severus,” and they were for a time on good terms.

Micah: All right. Well, great catch by Becky there. Well, for I believe it’s the first time, we’re going to take the Knight Bus to Hogwarts, so different mode of transportation for the trio. And I thought this was a nice connecting to threads to Prisoner of Azkaban, where Harry inadvertently jumps on the Knight Bus to get to the Leaky Cauldron. But Nicole, you had some notes here about the Knight Bus and its connection to Prisoner of Azkaban.

Nicole: Yeah, so we get to meet Stan again. We first saw him in Prisoner of Azkaban, so we have that classic Prisoner of Azkaban/Order of the Phoenix link. And then, I don’t know, reading it again today, it was kind of sad. It’s like, “Oh, the next time we see him, he’s under the Imperius Curse, working for Voldemort.”

Laura: Aww. Yeah.

Nicole: Poor guy. And he was just trying to impress some Veela in the last book. I mean, can’t catch a break.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. It’s really nice seeing these callbacks to earlier books, thinking… there’s so much magic established by Book 5, and so many aspects of the wizarding world established that to see a little cameo, if you will, by something like the Knight Bus is a lot of fun.

Micah: It’d be great to Max that in the TV show.

Nicole: Without a talking head.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Probably… yeah, the talking head, for anybody who doesn’t know, was an Alfonso Cuarón touch, the director of Movie 3. So we’ll see if they carry that over.

Micah: It’s a fun touch.

Andrew: Yeah, it was fun. I liked it.

Micah: But didn’t they also show up at the… was it the Leaky Cauldron? Or the Three Broomsticks, right?

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Or were those different shrunken heads that told Ron and Hermione they couldn’t come in? It’s when Harry sneaks in to overhear McGonagall.

Laura: I don’t remember.

Micah: But anyway, before we get to the first Occlumency lesson, one other thing just wanted to touch on was the very awkward Harry asking Cho out on a first date. And to be fair, Cho kind of asked him out initially. He just… his head is… I don’t fault the guy. I know he’s in his teenage years, but he’s got a lot going on, and this is probably the last thing on his mind. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s fair. Because I mean, he’s already a teenager, so I think he’s predisposed to be dumb and awkward about these things. But I mean, yeah, he literally has the fate of the world on his shoulders, and he’s one of the only ones who knows it right now, so I’ll give him a pass for this one. But it was pretty obvious, pretty big fumble, especially…

Micah: But he recovered!

Laura: He did. He did recover, for sure.

Andrew: As he always does.

Nicole: I read again this morning and I cringed, but then I have a 13-year-old stepson, and I don’t want to blow up his texts on the podcast, because he will listen…

[Micah laughs]

Nicole: But it’s accurately awkward.

Andrew: Yeah. And that’s life at that age.

Micah: It is.

Nicole: Not picking up the hints.

Micah: All right, well, I want everybody on the panel to clear your minds, clear them out, because…

Andrew: I’m bad at meditating.

Micah: Well, then I can’t promise that Snape is not going to penetrate your mind and do terrible things to you.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: So Snape gives Harry a little bit of a cover story for the fact that he needs to spend time with him to take these Occlumency lessons. He says that if anybody asks, he’s to tell them that he is taking remedial Potions. [laughs] So right off the bat, Snape has another way to demean Harry and make him look bad in front of his peers. We actually see this come to life, too.

Andrew: Yeah. So I understand why Snape is saying “Tell people you’re taking remedial Potions,” but Harry should have just made up something else entirely, just made up another excuse so he didn’t come off like he was a total idiot when it comes to Potions and Snape is spending extra time with him.

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: I feel like this is, I don’t know, such a nosy school thing where everyone would be so in each other’s business that they would notice that Harry is going to Snape for private tutoring. Hogwarts is a big place. They should have just been cool about it; just don’t say anything.

Andrew: Well, yeah. You’re saying Harry didn’t have to tell people anything?

Laura: Anything, yeah.

Micah: The most important person here, though, is likely Umbridge, and it’s probably something she would believe, so I think that’s probably why it works.

Laura: Yeah, true.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: I’m not saying that it’s nice, but it fits.

Laura: I mean, he could have also said it was just detention.

Micah: She probably would have believed that too.

Laura: And with how drained and miserable Harry is after that, it would have tracked.

Micah: I did want to do a quick name origin here for Occlumency.

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Andrew: Whoa!

Micah: So the “Occlu” in “Occlumency” comes from the Latin “occludere,” which means to close up or to block off, so it fits perfectly for what Harry is going to attempt to do in this chapter. So let’s talk about this whole idea of penetrating a 15-year-old child’s mind by an adult professor who has nothing but disdain for him. I’ll start by asking the question: Is Snape the most qualified to teach Harry Occlumency, given that he himself has spent years closing off his mind to Voldemort?

Nicole: I think besides Dumbledore at that school right now, who else could teach Harry?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And I just want to remind y’all that Lupin felt like he is uniquely qualified to teach him based on his skills. Now, I know we’re debating teaching, and that’s where a third party could have come in to help moderate the lesson, I suppose.

Laura: Yeah, I think the operative word here is “Harry.” So is Snape qualified to teach Harry Occlumency? I think, given the enormous conflict of interest here, I would say the answer to that question is no. Might Snape be the best person to teach Occlumency in general? Probably.

Micah: It’s kind of like the same thing with Potions. It just comes down to his style, right? He lacks the sensitivity and the patience that’s needed for something like this. He’s much more procedural in nature, and I think, given what we’re about to experience, he’s just not the right fit. And I would go so far as to say Snape is the poster child for repressed rage and bitterness, and I have a hard time believing that this man who can’t say a sentence without sneering is going to help a 15-year-old process trauma and suppress mental invasion, when he can’t even suppress his own sarcasm.

Andrew: [laughs] But I think that… maybe this is a little too obvious, but from a storytelling perspective, having Snape teach Harry makes sense because Harry is going to get Snape’s Worst Memory in a couple chapters.

Micah: Oh yeah, but there’s a lot wrong with it. I agree with you; I think he is the most qualified just based on the fact that he has been closing off his mind to Voldemort for years, but there’s a lot here to unpack.

Laura: I was kind of wondering if there’s some twisted logic at play here. Because Micah, you raise a really good point; Snape, honestly, kind of like Phineas Nigellus – we just called this out last week – can be kind of a diva. He’s kind of a little performance artist, and I think he kind of thrives on that attention, and he enjoys giving people so much crap, and I wonder if part of that is because it’s the only emotional outlet that he has in life, and it’s maybe the only way he can make sure that he’s fully capable to shut down and have no emotion when it counts.

Andrew: Do you think Snape wanted to be a theater kid?

Laura: Probably!

Andrew: Or was he a theater kid? [imitating Snape] “Defying gravity…”

[Nicole laughs]

Laura: Well, I think if he had been given the chance, he could have been. He’s so dramatic.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: He really is. I think the thing that’s getting called out here is that, yes, this was very clearly set up as a storytelling device to allow us to get that moment, but if they simply choose Snape to do this for the sake of conflict, you could kind of argue that’s bad writing if you can’t find a way for that to happen more organically. If it’s like, once again, Dumbledore is like, “Oh, sorry, can’t be bothered.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “Here, Severus, you do it.” Like, how many times do we have to tell you, old man? Dumbledore does this a lot; he withholds so much from Harry, and then every time he’s like, “Oh, I probably just should have told you.” [laughs]

Nicole: A couple things: so it’s always… rereading it now, with the way Snape treats Harry, I almost want to be like, “Okay, you were a kid. Please get over it. Your first love didn’t work out; it’s fine. We’re adults.”

Andrew: [laughs] But “Always, always, always.”

Nicole: Yeah, “always”; it’s a little much. And it kind of reminded me… I played softball in college, and it gave me vibes of one softball coach in college, and she was in her 30s, so I’m imagining same age as Snape, and there was definitely a lot of picking on some players. And I was like, “I feel like there’s some issues, like you felt like you didn’t get your dues. You’re going to take it out on these young women.” It gave me strong vibes towards that.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think you’re right, too. And also the fact that he’s projecting his anger at a dead man onto Harry.

Nicole: On a child who wasn’t there, had nothing to do with this.

Laura: Right.

Nicole: I mean, Dumbledore gave you a job. I wish… I don’t know. I guess, yeah, to move the plot forward, he has to hate Harry, but it’s a frustrating reread.

Micah: Definitely. And I also think a major part of this is that Snape sees James every time that he looks at Harry, and I don’t think that you can necessarily teach somebody to guard their mind when you can barely stand the side of them.

Andrew: Yeah. I also wonder – and this might be a bit of a crackpot theory – but I wonder if Snape is partially so angsty about these lessons because he does pull a few memories out of his mind before teaching Harry, to prevent Harry from seeing anything. Is he angsty because he no longer has these memories of Lily for an hour? It’s almost like they didn’t even happen? I don’t know exactly how this all works, but I wonder if it gives some anxiety to be separated from these memories, these good memories.

Laura: That’s interesting. What I think is so interesting about that is that this is kind of Snape’s tell that he actually thinks Harry is more talented and smarter than he lets on to. The fact that he was like, “Just in case, let me take all the memories that I would not want Potter to see and put them in a Pensieve so that I’m protected.” So Snape talks a big game about Harry being a dunderhead, but I don’t think that’s what he actually thinks of him.

Micah: He almost throws a compliment his way, too, when the Imperius Curse comes up, and says, “You were able to somewhat resist that; this won’t be all that different.”

Andrew: So he was teaching him. “It’s like how you fight the Imperius Curse.” I’m sort of kidding. Is it possible, too, that maybe Snape was planning on being a nicer, better teacher, but then the situation with Sirius went down, and he still has a bad taste in his mouth from that?

Micah: Maybe. I just don’t think that he wants to be in this situation. Neither party wants to be in this situation, and I think Snape is just looking at this like, “Albus, why are you making me do this?”

Andrew: “Albus, why?”

[Everyone laughs]

Nicole: And I wonder… so Dumbledore, we find out, did not want to teach Harry because he didn’t want Voldemort to know how close they were. I mean, poor Snape; he’s the one who’s the double agent here, so if something goes wrong and Voldemort can see through Harry, then the jig is up.

Laura: That is the point, Nicole. Thank you for saying that. Because if Dumbledore is so worried that Voldemort is going to be able to penetrate Harry’s mind, shouldn’t he be worried about the same thing happening with Snape? How is he going to explain that to Voldemort?

Andrew: I guess it just speaks to how Snape is a world-class Occlumens.

Micah: I would have said something else after world-class, but…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: World-class ass.

Micah: Yeah. So just a couple of other things here: We know that Occlumency requires a calm mind and emotional control…

Andrew: “Hummmm.”

Micah: … and Snape’s idea of teaching was throwing Harry into the deep end and then mocking him when he floundered. So again, this is very similar to how he teaches Harry Potions, and that actually comes up in this chapter, too; he criticizes Harry for just not following directions, but in this particular case, I don’t really think he’s giving Harry a whole lot of direction or guidance.

Andrew: No, he’s not. They just dive headfirst into these “lessons,” and it is bizarre that Snape isn’t trying to teach him more. He basically just gives him a textbook definition of what it means to practice Occlumency, and then he’s like, “All right, one, two…” and then throws a spell at him. [laughs]

Laura: And he just says, “Clear your mind.” Okay? I don’t think…

Andrew: As if Snape clears his mind. [laughs]

Laura: Right. Well, also, are you going to teach me a mindfulness exercise? What are we doing here, man?

Andrew: Yeah, aren’t you going to load up your HeadSpace app and walk me through some meditations?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: And there’s a huge trust issue between the two of them, right? And you have to remember that Occlumency is about letting somebody into your mind. I mean, it’s not necessarily about letting somebody in; you’re trying to prevent them from getting in. But I do think there’s a level of vulnerability here, in terms of Harry needing to trust somebody, and in this case, it’s just like letting your worst enemy be your therapist. That’s the best comparison that I can come up with.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s a good way to look at it, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah, if Micah was my therapist, I would be like, “Why are you giving me advice? I hate you.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: It’s a joke. It’s a joke.

Micah: Well, everybody was kind of talking a little bit about this earlier: What if Harry stumbled into the wrong memory during the lesson? What do we think would have happened here that…? Nicole, you were mentioning this earlier; there’s just so much that could have been uncovered, not just by Harry, maybe even potentially by Voldemort. So this is risky, in addition to being cruel.

Andrew: And maybe a reason why Snape doesn’t actually want to teach Harry, because he doesn’t want him getting into his mind. [laughs] He does take the memories out, and we should talk about that too. What were the memories that he takes out before this lesson? And how broad are these memories? If we haven’t done an episode dedicated to retrieving memories, we definitely should have that discussion. But one memory must have been, of course, around Lily. Maybe another memory was his deal with Dumbledore, although that kind of ties into Lily. And then probably James bullying Snape, as we see in the Pensieve.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, and probably a lot of stuff about his dad too. I know we see some memories of Snape’s dad in the Worst Memory chapter, so there’s probably some childhood stuff in there as well.

Micah: That’s a great point.

Laura: Which is also going to include Lily. She’s a big part of it.

Micah: I’ve always been curious, though… the defense mechanism – it’s not necessarily intended for you to then penetrate the other person’s mind, right? It’s just to block out that person from getting into yours.

Laura: Right.

Micah: So it is interesting that Harry is able to then get inside Snape’s head. We can talk more about it when we get to that chapter, though, I guess.

Andrew: Well, and he puts his head into the Pensieve.

Micah: Oh, is that what it is?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think that’s what it is.

Micah: Ahh.

Andrew: Yeah, because Snape goes to take care of something in Slytherin House, and that’s when he…

Micah: See, this is where the movie messes with my recollection, because… okay.

Laura: Because in the movie, you’re right, Harry does reverse Legilimens him.

Andrew: Doesn’t he fall to the floor and is like, “Get out” or something like that?

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Arguably kind of a better way for it to play out.

Nicole: More dramatic.

Micah: For sure. Let’s talk a little bit about Dumbledore in all of this, because he’s giving Snape permission to mentally invade Harry, exposing some of his most private memories, leaving him mentally and physically exhausted, and I want to talk more about the mental and physical exhaustion as well, because that is important in all this too. I mean, there’s a lot of comparisons that we can make here. I think we touched on it the last time we did this chapter, but I mean, is this Dumbledore’s…? Is it up to him to be allowing this to happen? I guess Sirius gave the permission. But what are everybody’s thoughts here?

Laura: Yeah, and it is interesting to me how carefully Snape chooses his words when Harry is asking him, “Why are we doing this? Why did Dumbledore choose you? Why can’t he tell me what we’re doing?” And Snape, even there, seems to be cautious about how much info to give Harry, because they know that Voldemort probably knows about the mind connection at this point. So I guess the decision probably got made with that in mind, that Harry may not be in control of this 100% of the time, so they had no choice but to make this decision for him, which sucks.

Andrew: Yeah, and don’t you think that by entering Harry’s mind as deeply as he does…? We see Harry flip through a lot of different memories. Do you think maybe that this is the way to teach somebody? Because you kind of put them… you back them into a corner, and they’re so mad and repulsed that that’s when they figure out how to shut you down.

Laura: It really seems like it’s a matter of will, because I remember when Harry was resisting the Imperius Curse, it was just Harry mentally thinking, “No, I don’t want to do that.”

Micah: Right.

Laura: So is it the same thing here? Where it’s just like, “La la la, I can’t hear you. Get out of my head.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, it kind of reminds me of being able to cast a Patronus; you have to think of your happiest memory. Here, you have to be reminded of some of your most private memories to learn the art of shutting people out.

Micah: So I’m actually glad that you brought that up, Andrew, because I think there’s a lot of comparisons we can make here between Lupin teaching Harry how to cast a Patronus…

Laura: Ahhh.

Micah: … and Snape trying to teach Harry Occlumency, again pulling on the threads between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix. Both instances, Harry is left mentally exhausted, right? But Lupin at least teaches him over time. And I understand there wasn’t a pressing need for Harry to have to learn how to cast a Patronus, whereas in this case, there is a need for him to learn how to shut off his mind. But Lupin takes care of Harry after the fact, right? He gives him chocolate. Whereas in this case, Snape just…

Andrew: Doesn’t do anything.

Micah: “See you next time.” [laughs] Basically. But I do think there’s something there.

Nicole: I mean, the teaching method isn’t totally… I mean, thinking about coaching styles, teaching method, the hard-ass… it can work for some people, so it’s not the worst. But comparing as Lupin, we know Lupin worked well with Harry, so maybe Snape should have brought some candy or something. Throw a bone.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, and I mean… sorry if this already got called out, but Lupin, he makes sure to take care of Harry.

Micah: Right.

Laura: Gives him the chocolate to make sure that he can recover. I’m thinking Harry should have been allowed to recover in the hospital wing after his Occlumency lessons. Madam Pomfrey should have been bringing him… what are the…? I forget the name of the potion. The Pepper-Up something or other to give him energy, make him feel better, rejuvenate him.

Nicole: But couldn’t Snape do that? He’s Potions Master!

Laura: Right, exactly!

Nicole: He should help him out.

Micah: Like our flashback from earlier in the episode; we talked about how Snape could have given him something. So just a couple of other things here that I thought were worth calling out: We’ve talked a lot about how these lessons actually make Harry more vulnerable – see the end of the chapter – and I also think there’s something to be said, as we’re talking about comparing and contrasting Lupin and Snape, that you can’t expect Harry to learn this in one lesson. You think about how many years Snape has had to perfect this art, it’s really unfair that he is treating him in this way, and I don’t think the hard-ass approach is working.

Andrew: But time is of the essence here; they don’t have years to prepare Harry. And yes, sure, to your point, Snape could have tried to have been a better teacher, maybe, to expedite his progress, but really… yeah, there’s no time.

Laura: Yeah, there’s no time, and then the lessons get abruptly ended, and nobody tells Dumbledore. So it’s that important that Dumbledore is not checking in on Snape to be like, “Hey, how’s the Occlumency going?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, there is at least one good thing that comes from these lessons, and that’s Harry starting to get some answers. He puts Snape on his heels when he mentions the Department of Mysteries, and he also gets a little bit of insight into who Snape really is, whether he recognizes or not. So the big Snape reveal that… I’m not sure; did many people pick up on this when they were reading? Because Snape says to Harry that the Dark Lord “almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection.” He’s talking about himself.

Andrew: How would you know that, Snape?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, so the big reveal here is he’s a double agent. He’s basically admitting as much. Yeah, no, I definitely didn’t pick up on it at the time, but it is very cool reading back and seeing the groundwork laid for this reveal two books prior to when it comes out.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I think we also get the groundwork for the Horcrux reveal, and Nagini being one of those Horcruxes. Because when Harry says, “No, I wasn’t Voldemort; I was in the snake,” and Snape is like, “Well, Voldemort was occupying the snake at the time,” which is technically true. So yeah, the whole plot around Snape being a double agent, around Harry being a Horcrux, this is probably the most obvious hint we get for it this early on.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Andrew: Yeah, only Snape can pull off this type of thing. It’s like he’s uniquely qualified to teach Occlumency! And Snape also does tell Harry that he will know if he didn’t practice, and I was thinking that this kind of feels like a hint about Snape being a double agent, because he could get a report from Voldemort or Dumbledore that his mind’s been penetrated. [laughs] Or Harry.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and also he’ll be able to see it the next time Harry comes for Occlumency lessons. If Harry hasn’t been practicing, Snape is going to know, because he’ll see it.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a good point. So I thought we could wrap up the chapter talking about what we think Voldemort actually knows about Harry at this moment. The whole reason behind this is because there’s this belief that Voldemort can use Harry to his advantage, but I’m curious, do we think that he has a sense of the Horcrux at this point? I mean, why else would there be this connection that exists between them? And if that’s true, why would he potentially look to destroy it? Harry is anchoring him to this world.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know if Voldemort has picked up on the Harry being a Horcrux thing yet. I mean, it seems like he knows about the connection between the two of them, but he doesn’t understand it. He’s just happy that he can try and exploit it.

Andrew: Well, yeah, and could it possibly be tied to the Department of Mysteries? He’s happy that Harry has been seeing the Department of Mysteries because, of course, he needs Harry, if not himself, to retrieve the prophecy.

Micah: So that’s why he’s happy at the end of this chapter?

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Laura: Well, also think about who seems happy at the beginning of this chapter. Just saying. Kreacher was in a much better mood earlier on in this chapter.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And I mean, I know we do find out eventually what Voldemort is so happy about, but I think it’s connected, right? Because I think Kreacher has already been feeding intel to Bellatrix. They’re already planning what it is they’re going to do in a few months’ time.

Micah: But meanwhile, Harry is stroking out on the dormitory floor because of what Snape has done to him.

Andrew: I know. Good thing he has friends like Hermione and Ron to look out for him. Hermione is like, “I’m not surprised you feel that way. I mean, look what just happened to you.” So at least she understands and tells him that.

Micah: But I mean, think about what he’s going through. He’s literally retching, maniacally laughing… he’s having almost a psychotic break, because likely, what Snape just did to him put him in a much more weakened state than he otherwise would have been. And that’s where, to me, the neglect of it all comes in, and that’s where it’s… forget about Snape; that’s where it’s shame on Dumbledore, because he knows potentially what this could do to Harry. He needs to make sure that he’s cared for after the fact, going back to what Laura was saying earlier.

Andrew: Nicole, we are often – well, I say we – but some of us on the panel are often hard on Dumbledore. I’m curious, where do you land on this matter?

Nicole: I go back and forth, but at the end of this chapter, as a parent in 2025, the fact that Harry was alone with Snape, all this goes down, and Snape just sends him on his way… it’s like, why was no one else there? They should not have been alone. So right now, Dumbledore is not high on my list after this chapter.

Andrew: Yeah. And I don’t really blame Harry for not coming up with this idea, but maybe Harry should have gone to McGonagall and said, “Snape is being really tough on me during these lessons. Can we do something? Can you sit in? Can I bring a friend? Bring a Friend to Occlumency Day?” [laughs]

Nicole: He’s 15. This is a 15-year-old boy thing.

Micah: He needs his emotional support Hippogriff.

[Nicole laughs]

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: He does! Yeah, “Can I at least bring my ESH to the lessons?”


Odds & Ends


Micah: All right, well, a couple of odds and ends for this chapter. We’ve done a lot of thread connecting to Prisoner of Azkaban; we’ll throw one more in, which is Madam Marsh. She loves herself some Knight Bus, right, Nicole?

[Andrew laughs]

Nicole: I went back to the third book. Poor Madam Marsh. All we know about her is she gets motion sick but she keeps going back on that Knight Bus.

Andrew: She’s a super fan.

Laura: She can’t get enough.

Nicole: Can’t get enough of it.

Andrew: Maybe she’s got an annual pass. All you can ride pass.

Micah: And then Hermione makes the connection between Sturgis Podmore and the Department of Mysteries, and then Ron mentions that people who work there are called Unspeakables, so we’re getting a little bit more information about the department.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: And that takes us to our best Snape or Sirius dig of the week.

Andrew: Yeah, my favorite was Sirius calling Snape “Snivellus,” because we see this name come up in a few chapters when we experience Snape’s Worst Memory. So I just love the tie-in there, because it just speaks to how long these two have hated each other. It’s to the point where Sirius is still throwing this name at Snape, and they are adults now.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Snape for the “speaking of dogs” moment. Snape, to be honest with you, I feel like his comebacks are far more clever than Sirius’s; I think Snape is a lot quicker on his feet. And if I were to rate who I thought won the disagreement between the two of them, it would have been Snape, to be honest with you. But I love how layered this statement is, because it originates from Sirius first accusing Snape of being Lucius’s lapdog. Snape fires back and says, “speaking of dogs,” and he’s literally talking about Sirius and Lucius. I think in that moment, it’s not just a statement about “He recognized your Animagus form on the platform”; it’s also him literally calling Sirius and Lucius both dogs, like he doesn’t think very much of either of them. So I appreciated that. I thought it was clever.

Micah: Yeah, I like the line that Snape delivered to Sirius… I guess there was conversation about him saying that he would go to Dumbledore if he found out that Harry was being mistreated by Snape, and he went on to say, “Are you afraid he might not take the advice of a man who has been hiding inside his mother’s house for six months very seriously?” Emphasis on the “seriously.”

Andrew: [laughs] And Nicole?

Nicole: Yeah, I picked this, I think, in the similar paragraph. Snape, again, he said, “Merely that I am sure you must feel – ah – frustrated by the fact that you can do nothing useful.” So he hit Sirius where it hurts, where the best thing he could offer the Order was his house, and kind of ended there.

Andrew: Yeah, you’ve got to feel for Sirius. He wants to do more and he can’t. His hands are tied.


Lynx Line


Micah: Well, over on the Lynx Line, where we ask MuggleCast listeners who are members of our Patreon a question of the week, this week it was: What could possibly make Voldemort the happiest he has ever been? Wrong answers only.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Wrong answers only. Jeff said, “Someone finally asked him the prom.”

Laura: Aww.

Micah: Badgerforth said, “Being asked to be the best man at Dumbledore and Grindelwald’s wedding.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Katie says, “A cute new two-piece swimsuit and matching dollar flip-flops that he got on sale from Old Navy.”

Andrew: Good one. Summer’s coming.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs]

Nicole: Jen, “A nose ring!”

Andrew: [laughs] Laura, you’ve got one of those. We could give Voldemort yours.

Laura: I do. Well, it’s actually a septum ring.

Andrew: Oh, sorry, sorry.

Laura: No, I’m kidding.

Micah: I mean, I would just have stopped at nose.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: He gets a nose!

Nicole: A nose job.

Andrew: I think he should get a nose ring, and he’d be like, [imitating Voldemort] “Where do I put this? Where do I put this?!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Danielle said, “Being gifted a trip to the Universal theme parks to play with plastic wands and be surrounded by happy Muggles.” [laughs] That’s great.

Micah: Rachel says, “A life-size cutout of Dumbledore in his apartment.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He’s just Avada Kedavra-ing it all day. It’s just totally blown to a billion pieces by the end of the first day.

Laura:Avada Kedavra!” And it’s just tattered ruins of cardboard. [laughs]

Andrew: Was that Voldemort sneezing or saying “Avada Kedavra“? I couldn’t tell.

Laura: I think it was a combination of both.

[Andrew imitates Voldemort sneezing]

Laura: [laughs] Next one is from Christa, who says, “Being hugged by Draco first.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Nice shout-out to that awkward moment in Deathly Hallows – Part 2.

Andrew: Amazing. If that doesn’t get brought over to the TV show, I swear to God. That has to be.

[Laura laughs]

Nicole: Non-negotiable. Stephen said, “Going to Disney World and getting pictures with all the Disney princesses.”

Andrew: Aww.

Nicole: That would be fun.

Andrew: Carly said, “Reading a Dramione fanfic.” Yeah.

Micah: And Kathleen closes us out: “World peace, and a long walk on the beach at sunset with his bae.”

Andrew: [laughs] Aww. Thanks, everyone. And don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, we’ll discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 25, “The Beetle at Bay.” Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. Over on What the Hype?! in recent weeks, you can find The Last of Us coverage. If you’ve been watching that TV show, definitely check it out. And over on Millennial, we’re talking about Millennials taking mini-retirements, and if this is possible for ourselves. I think that’s where Eric is this week; they’re taking a mini-retirement.

Laura: Ah, mini-retirement. I’ll have to ask them what that’s like.

Andrew: I’m jealous.

Micah: For their birthday!

Andrew: Yeah, happy birthday, Eric.

Laura: That’s right! Happy birthday, Eric.

Andrew: Their birthday was April 23.


Quizzitch


Andrew: So Micah, you’re in the Quizzitch seat this week, I think. It’s time for Quizzitch.

Micah: [laughs] Let’s do it.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Micah: This week’s Quizzitch question was what actor/comedian once eschewed autographs in favor of handing out cards reading, “This certifies that you have had a personal encounter with me and that you found me warm, polite, intelligent, and funny”? And I think this was drawn from the experience we had in meeting Gilderoy Lockhart in the last chapter. The correct answer is the world-renowned comedian Steve Martin, and 88% of people with the correct answer admitted to looking it up.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So a little bit of a tough one there; only 12% didn’t have to look it up. But that was actually kind of cool. Correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Buckbeak’s Emotional Support Snack Rats; Buff Daddy; Build an Umbridge and Get Over It…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … Every day I’m Hufflin’; Jmax; Huffle-Puffle; I literally watched the Pink Panther remake last night… I’m sorry.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Kristen the Ravenclaw; Liam the Youngling; Longbottoms Up; Mary pop-lock and Drop-inns; Stray Kneazle; and the one and only Tofu Tom. Next week’s Quizzitch question: What part of the human brain, in addition to aiding cognitive functions like attention and planning, is also involved with the storing of long-term memories?

Andrew: Oooh.

Micah: You can submit your Quizzitch answers over on MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: Nicole, thanks so much for joining us today. It was great having you on. Thanks for sitting in the Eric seat, if you will. [laughs]

Nicole: So exciting.

Micah: Yeah, you were great.

Nicole: Thank you.

Andrew: And we really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Listeners, we would appreciate your support there, too, and check out all the benefits. We have lots to offer there, including two new bonus MuggleCast episodes every month. And like we said earlier, we’re going to be recording a new one that will be out later this week, in which we’re talking about scenes from the Order of the Phoenix book that we want brought over to the TV show. Also, don’t forget to leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, and do tell a friend about the show if you think you have some friends that could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Nicole: And I’m Nicole.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Transcript #702

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #702, Emotional Support Hippogriff (OOTP Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: And I’m Micah.

Andrew: We are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies, and the forthcoming TV show, so make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app so you never miss a new episode. And on this week’s episode, please tell the nearest teenager to stick right where they are – Dumbledore’s orders – because we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “Christmas on the Closed Ward,” ho ho! You know, I was going to bust out a Santa hat, but it’s packed away deep in the Christmas bins. I was like, “Oh, that’s a lot of work for a Santa hat.”

Eric: I have one, but it’s just out of reach.

Andrew: Oh, all right. Well, Eric and I are wearing, frankly, one of the best Christmas gifts ever: a MuggleCast T-shirt, our “19 Years Later” T-shirts. [laughs]

Eric: That’s right; it even makes a good Christmas in July shirt.

Andrew: It sure does. You can actually get these on our overstock store right now, MuggleMillennial.etsy.com; we’ll have a link in the show notes. While supplies last, we have these available. We gave these to patrons for free last year. We have some extras, and we’re selling them in the overstock store now, so please don’t miss out. This is a very special anniversary shirt. MuggleCast, 19 years old, 19 years later. This is our epilogue year. Please grab them while you can; they are great shirts.

Eric: And I must say – though I’m surprised if we haven’t joked about this already – but we all, 19 years later, have aged more gracefully than the cast did in that original epilogue.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, we have aged like a fine wine.

Micah: And I would have worn my MuggleCast shirt tonight, but I wanted some balance amongst the three of us, right?

Andrew: That’s fair, yeah. Well, Micah, we eagerly await you wearing the shirt next week. [laughs]

Micah: Next week.

Andrew: Okay. We’ll send a memo to Laura, too, and you two can match next week.

Micah: Sounds good.


News


Andrew: Well, 19 years later, believe it or not, we are still talking about Harry Potter casting news, and Warner Bros. finally officially announced the first six Harry Potter TV show cast members. Now, four of them we already knew about; John Lithgow, who has made it no secret that he is playing Dumbledore in recent weeks, was confirmed, as was Janet McTeer. She’ll play McGonagall, Paapa Essiedu will play Snape, and Nick Frost will play Hagrid. There were two more cast announcements we had heard no rumors about: Luke Thallon will play Quirrell, and Paul Whitehouse will play Argus Filch. Luke Thallon, only 29 years old. He’s a little younger than when Ian Hart portrayed Quirrell in the movie. Luke Thallon, also a bit of a unknown. He’s only had roles in theater; hasn’t really had any on-screen roles.

Eric: It seems really cool. What I love about the youth and the other characters that we’re now getting is… obviously, this is Hagrid, McGonagall, Dumbledore; there for the whole series. Quirrell is a character just in the first book. And so now we’re kind of able to look at who are the characters that are going to flesh out the world within the confines of this story of this year? And we can start to see how the season will take shape, not just how the series will take shape, if that makes sense.

Andrew: If I’m Paul Thallon, I’m like, “Oh my God, I got cast in the Harry Potter TV show? Oh, it’s just the first season? Oh, bummer.”

Eric: But there are no small parts! You’ve got to make it your own. He actually has more time, maybe four or five times more time, than Ian Hart did to make a lasting Quirrell impression.

Andrew: That’s true.

Micah: It’s got to set the tone, right? This is the first adaptation. And look, Quirrell gets a reference in this chapter that we’re about to delve into in Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Plus, it’s our first connection to Voldemort, the man who’s actively trying to kill a baby still.

Micah: Now, that’s going to be interesting, though, to see who gets cast as Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah. Who fits well on the back of Luke Thallon’s head?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And will that ultimately be different than who gets cast as Voldemort in Goblet of Fire?

Eric: Ohhh.

Andrew: Ooh, that’s a good question.

Eric: Or are they going to go ahead and cast Voldemort the whole way through? That would be wild.

Andrew: Yeah, like, “Oh, we’ll see you again in three years when we shoot Season 4 of the Harry Potter TV show”? Or maybe they can include Voldemort in Movies 2 and 3 with… I don’t know, we get some behind-the-scenes looks at, I don’t know, Pettigrew working with him or something like that. That could be cool. Yeah, we’ll have to see.

Micah: Why not seven? Why did we go with six?

Andrew: I thought the same!

Eric: The seventh one better be Peeves the poltergeist; that is who I want to know. Not even that I care who is getting cast – I’m sure they’ll do a great job – but I want to know that that character is in the movies. Because I think it’s the natural progression; if you’re not going to tell us about the kids, who’s the next most important character in the first book? It’s Peeves.

Andrew: I’m sure they have a seventh cast member already locked in they could have thrown into this announcement…

Eric: Let’s hope.

Andrew: … to your point, Micah, make a beautiful round seven-person casting announcement. Paul Whitehouse; I mentioned he’s going to play Argus Filch. He’s got the Filch Look, no doubt about that. He’s had a lengthy film career, but get this: He actually played Sir Cadogan in the Prisoner of Azkaban movie!

Eric: Ha!

Andrew: He had a little cameo in a portrait. So this is our first Harry Potter movie-to-TV-show actor crossover; I thought that was kind of fun.

Eric: Oh, man! He’s double dipping!

Micah: If you had money on Sir Cadogan, you just made bank.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: He would not have been at the top of my list as far as movie-to-TV crossover.

Andrew: Yeah, switching roles, too. It’ll be interesting to see if any other… because obviously, there were so many, well, children and adult actors in the Harry Potter movies. Are we going to see any other crossovers? Didn’t Jason Isaacs say he wanted to play Lily Potter or something like that in the TV show? [laughs]

Eric: Hermione. He always says Hermione, yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Was it cut? Was that Sir Cadogan cameo cut? Kyle is saying it was cut.

Eric: I think so. I seem to remember going through the deleted scenes for that DVD, and it’s a minute-long clip of the knight brandishing his sword.

Andrew: Okay. Well, that makes it even more interesting; it’s almost like he got a second chance at appearing in a Harry Potter work. Thank you, Kyle, who’s listening live. So those are the updates for now. Continue to stick with MuggleCast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. We’re also covering all the news on our social media channels, so hop on to Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, etc.; search for and follow MuggleCast to stay on top of the latest Harry Potter TV show news. And if you love MuggleCast and want to help us keep things running as efficiently as St. Mungo’s does, please visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge today. You’ll get instant access to over 150 bonus MuggleCast episodes; you’ll get ad-free episodes of the show; you’ll get a new physical gift every year; you’ll have the chance to cohost the show one day, and a lot more. We could not do this without you, and we appreciate you more than I think Neville appreciates a good gum wrapper. Eric, what’s coming up in bonus MuggleCast this week? We’re recording a new one?

Eric: Yes, of course. Now, we have taken to playing some games sometimes on bonus MuggleCast. We’ve always done that, but recently there was a board game day in Chicago between Micah, myself, and Meg. Today we will be playing Skribbl, the fantastic online drawing game. We have a series of words developed by Meg that are all Harry Potter-themed. And basically, it’s kind of like Pictionary and other games where you have to guess what the other one is drawing. And so the three of us will be playing that game. There are extra points awarded to how quickly you get it, and if nobody gets it, it’s a sad, sad day.

Micah: Didn’t we do a version of this at LeakyCon in Portland?

Eric: It is very familiar, although I must promise that in the last two years I’ve gotten better at drawing Thestrals, if I happen to have to do that.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Okay.

Eric: But yeah, it’s going to be great. And like I mentioned, all of the bonus MuggleCasts that we’ve done are just still on our Patreon, and it’s something I always point out to new patrons too. There’s so much content on there now.

Andrew: Yeah, and it’s fun for us to… as much as we enjoy doing Chapter by Chapter, it’s fun to play games, to your point, Eric, or discuss other elements of the wizarding world, because we don’t have time for it on the main show. One other great way to support us: I mentioned the overstock store and the shirts Eric and I are wearing tonight that you can buy while supplies last, but another great way to support us is to pick up merch at MuggleCastMerch.com. Also, tell a friend about the show, and please leave a review of MuggleCast in your favorite podcast app. Finally, visit MuggleCast.com for quick access to all this information and lots more, like our contact form.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And now without further ado, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “Christmas on the Closed Ward.”

Eric: We last discussed this chapter in Episode 460, which was titled “Loony Lockhart.” Gee, I wonder why? Kind of a weird character to bring up in the middle of Book 5. That episode was from April 7 of 2020, and here’s our clip.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 460.

Andrew: And also just an example of how Harry isn’t thinking of who he can go to for help. Ginny should have seemed like a really obvious choice.

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: I also found it odd that these two were both possessed in some way by Voldemort, but yet they end up getting married, so I wondered if that was a common thing that they bonded over.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: “Hey, babe, you remember when you were possessed by Voldemort?” And Ginny is like, “Actually, no.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “But I’ll pretend I do for you.”

Micah: “Go back to bed, Harry.”

Eric: Oh, gosh.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: In my dating profile I’m going to add “being possessed by Voldemort” as a trait I’m looking for in another person.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: Let us know how that goes.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, let’s see what my partner thinks of that. My current partner.

[Eric laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So in the beginning of this chapter… we’ve said this; I think we could have started any of the last 20 chapters like this. But Harry is in a bad place, you guys. [laughs] And it is not helped by… he at least now has a word for what he may have been experiencing, but it’s not a good word; it’s “possessed.” And Harry ultimately feels unworthy and tarnished and tainted and poisonous, and he takes to essentially distancing himself from everyone more than he was before that. As they’re heading on the train, on the underground back from St. Mungo’s to Grimmauld Place, he’s not sitting with anyone else because he’s worried either Voldemort is going to look straight through his head and see them and attack them the way that Harry wanted to attack Dumbledore, or that he’s putting them at risk just in general from being around them. It’s just not a great place to be in.

Micah: No, and I know you said that Harry has been in a bad place in past chapters, but now he’s in a baaaad place. This is probably some of the more challenging text to read throughout the Harry Potter series. And yes, he is comparing himself to Quirrell; he thinks Voldemort might burst out of his skull. But going off of what you were saying, Eric, when he’s on the underground, it’s noted that he feels “dirty, contaminated, as though he were carrying some deadly germ, unworthy to sit on the underground train back from the hospital with innocent, clean people whose minds and bodies were free of the taint of Voldemort.” Just think about that for a second, a 15-year-old feeling that way.

Andrew: Yeah. I think he feels like his personal space was violated.

Eric: It was.

Andrew: His body was taken over, yeah. So I can see why he would be feeling that way. I don’t want to get too specific or grim here, but I think there are people in our real world who feel this way when they are, let’s say, taken advantage of.

Eric: These are common feelings for those who’ve suffered assault and all sorts of horrible things, and it’s this guilt where… we see it with Harry; he blames himself for not being able to control the fact that Voldemort is possessing him, or he thinks he is. And that’s not logical, but emotions are not logical. Essentially, Harry thinks that he should either be better at defending himself, or identifying what it is and stopping, but in his failure to do that, he is now harming himself by isolating himself, and essentially, in this chapter, plans to move back to Privet Drive, where he will be absolutely not wanted and even further abused, but at least further away from the people that he cares about.

Micah: And the other quote that I just wanted to mention from this opening two pages: He starts to think that he’s actually the weapon that is being referred to by the Order earlier on in this book, but it’s noted that “it was as though poison were pumping through his veins,” and we can analyze that on a number of different levels; poison being Voldemort, poison being the Horcrux, poison being this uncleanliness that he was referencing earlier… maybe it’s a combination of all of those things. But again, for a 15-year-old to have to go through this is disheartening, and I thought reading back, the first two or so pages of this chapter were just very hard to read. And shame on the adults for not engaging Harry more. We see Mrs. Weasley make an attempt; she clearly knows that something is off with Harry, but there are more adults in this equation, and none of them really step up to try and help him.

Eric: That’s a real shame.

Andrew: Somebody definitely should have been Harry’s mentor during this time, and I know, Micah, you in particular… I’m fearing that we’re going to be fighting a couple times during today’s episode.

Micah: Let’s go.

Andrew: You’ve been very critical of Dumbledore, and I agree to an extent, but Dumbledore does have his reasons to not make a direct connection and have a direct conversation with Harry. And honestly, Dumbledore avoiding Harry is very compelling from a reader standpoint. Why is Dumbledore avoiding him like this? Why is Dumbledore giving him the cold shoulder? So you have to keep that in mind. But I think Harry should have probably been offered some sort of middle man between he and Dumbledore, who could relay information back and forth. Now, how you explain this to Harry in a way that will please him, that will satisfy him? I don’t know exactly, but something should have been put in place of Dumbledore and Harry talking to one another directly.

Eric: Yeah, and if it’s a question of trust, there are people in the Order that you can trust; I think McGonagall is one such person who could interact with Harry, both as his Head of House, but then also as a liaison to Dumbledore. I think that at the end of this book when Harry is going around smashing things – and rightly so – Dumbledore talks about how much he cares for Harry, and, “Oh, I didn’t tell you the truth then, because I care for you so much,” or, “Oh, bless, it’s old age; I care about you so much,” and it’s like, well, if you care… it’s one thing to come straight out and risk everything you’re trying to do with the Order by showing up in front of Harry and having Voldemort burst through. Okay, I get it. But deputize someone, because if you care… this child is suffering, and now it’s been going on for months, and he’s just had a dream that had real world consequences, and he woke up and he had to tell his best friend and his entire family, six siblings and a parent, that he saw it happen and then find out that it was real. You absolutely need to step up your game, Dumbledore. Get somebody out there to talk to him, and the person that eventually gets appointed with the handling Harry situation, Snape, is completely the wrong person for this.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, yeah, I mean, he’s good at teaching Occlumency; that’s why he is given this role, right? And by the way, we just have to wait till the next chapter. There isn’t too much time to wait before Dumbledore really starts putting some plans into action to help Harry out.

Eric: Well, that means that when we’re discussing this chapter, we have to go as hard as possible against Dumbledore. [laughs]

Andrew: No, but you also have to understand this chapter is set around the holidays, right? Dumbledore was just planning to circle back after the holidays in terms of taking…

Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “Gonna circle back.”

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Yeah, let’s put a pin in this until after the holidays.”

Eric: Well, I will say, in the absence of these adults… and it’s worth noting, right? Even Sirius… Harry came to Sirius last chapter; we talked on last week’s episode about how that was insufficient, because actually, one of the reasons is that Sirius and the other adults haven’t been prepped with what they are allowed to say to Harry and what they might expect to come from him. I think part of the reason that Harry feels toxic, or this might inform it, is because they think he’s radioactive a little bit. They’re probably, against their best interests, keeping a distance from Harry, or even if that’s true only 1% of the time, he’s going to perceive that because he’s under a magnifying glass right now and he’s going to further retreat into himself. So it’s really not a good state, just to get into that. But there is one adult that comes over to Harry, and it’s Phineas Nigellus Black, former headmaster of Hogwarts. And Harry is pulling his trunk out the door – the carpet is stuck, otherwise he would have been gone – and Phineas Nigellus Black says, “Hey, I’ve got a message from Dumbledore,” and Harry is like, “Oh? Oh, yeah?” And he says, “Yeah, stay put.”

Andrew: [laughs] That’s the message!

Eric: Thanks, Dumbledore. Wasn’t there…? I’m imagining a party… that thing you blow, but one that sounds completely pathetic. [imitates a sad kazoo]

Andrew: Womp, womp. Yeah. Well, and then Harry gets angry at this information, and then Phineas snaps at Harry, basically telling him, “Oh, Harry, you’re just another know-it-all kid. Dumbledore has never actually put you into trouble when you listen to his instructions. All you kids are exactly the same.” And I do have to say that Phineas is right, to an extent. Harry is the age where he thinks – and all teenagers think – they’re know-it-alls; they don’t want to listen to adults. They’re a little bit entitled, and that it’s their way or the broomway.

Eric: The broomway!

Andrew: And to Phineas’s point, Harry even pouts back to his bed and throws himself face down on the mattress. Total “I didn’t get my way” type of move.

Eric: He’s complying! He’s not leaving.

Andrew: Yeah, and I’m glad he complied, but he’s pouting about it. “Uh.” He made that noise, too. “Uh.” So correct me if I’m wrong, but some people have said they don’t really like Harry in this book. I’m starting to understand why. [laughs]

Eric: Gee, I wonder why? Well, not because he’s this way. I don’t like Harry in this book because he’s made to suffer, not because he’s unhappy. You’d be unhappy too, right? We all would. But it’s the combination of everything that’s happening to him externally that he’s reacting to, and then everything that’s happening internally, that’s being put on him by the circumstances that he didn’t ask for, and nobody that is equipped to help him navigate some of these things is allowed to help him, and the people he’s surrounded with are out of their depth. So it’s just a sticky situation to be in. Harry is in a better place, I think, in almost every book, and after the Parselmouth encounter in Book 2 might be the only other time when it’s just really like nobody can help him, and Dumbledore then is there to provide some comfort. But it’s just kind of too little, too late on the part of Phineas Nigellus, and Harry is reminded that at the beginning of the book when the Dementor attack happened, what was he told? “Stay put.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: And so that’s not a solution. Well, Dumbledore is communicating absolutely as effectively as he can and as directly as he can…

Andrew: Thank you.

Eric: … but he’s not taking into account… as right as Phineas may be about attitudes or whatever, Dumbledore is just not addressing Harry’s very obvious panic and emotional… the way that he’s feeling, and unclean and everything.

Micah: It just goes against everything that a 15-year-old would want to do in this particular situation. And who is Phineas Nigellus Black to give Harry any direction on what he should be doing?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: He hasn’t even interacted with him before up until this point. And I think this is something that we mentioned the last time we did this Chapter by Chapter, but isn’t it a bit strange that Dumbledore has a direct line into Harry’s bedroom?

Andrew: Yeah…

Eric: He doesn’t use it.

Micah: No, he just spies on him.

Andrew: Well, it’s not like it’s Dumbledore sitting there watching. It is Phineas, so it’s…

Eric: Well, you know what’s weird about it, though? And I agree it’s weird, but Harry recognizes Phineas Nigellus’s voice because he’s heard it before.

Micah: From the video game.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, okay, there’s one thing about the video game I want to say. But first, no, he recognizes Phineas’s voice, so I looked back at the original chapters when Harry first arrives, finds his bedroom, etc. There’s no conversation. The portrait is empty; it’s just an empty frame. But in a particular moment when Harry is complaining about Dumbledore, Harry hears from the frame a snigger.

Micah: He agrees with him, probably.

Eric: So this is a common theme with… Phineas has already made up his mind about Harry’s attitude problem and authority problem, and he’s done it three months ago, so this comes to a head. The thing about the video game I want to mention is where do we think Phineas Nigellus Black got a distaste for Hogwarts students from? Oh, maybe the events of Hogwarts Legacy. Maybe it was your punk character that impersonates him, I think… what, spells him out of the way? And does some really weird stuff, confesses all the wrong secrets and stuff to the whole school. I like to think it was our Hogwarts Legacy characters that gave Phineas this chip on his shoulder.

Andrew: Before we move along in the chapter, I want to say a couple more things: First of all, in the next scene that we’re going to discuss, even Hermione tells Harry to stop feeling misunderstood, which is kind of similar to what Phineas is saying. “Stop pouting. Get with it. Wake up.” And that’s Harry’s best friend. And number two – and this is a point for Harry – Harry is worried that he’s being used as a weapon by Voldemort, and at that moment it might not be exactly true, but by the end, Voldemort is using his connection to Harry to take advantage of him. He lures him into his trap by the end of this book. So Harry was right to be concerned about this type of thing happening, and it’s probably something Dumbledore should have anticipated sooner, as I think Micah lectured me about last week.

Eric: Well, that’s an interesting point, because the comfort then that Harry feels in the next scene, starting in the next scene and lasting through the rest of the chapter, is sort of, in a way, false comfort and false hope. After he rules out being possessed, nevertheless there is an opportunity there for Voldemort to abuse the connection between them.

Micah: I don’t know that it’s necessarily full-on possession.

Eric: It’s not.

Micah: It’s almost just mind penetration and trickery. But it’s not the same thing as what Ginny went through.

Eric: So Harry, after he’s done “Uh!”…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … headfirst into the bed; “I’m so misunderstood.” Gets up and decides to hide in another room, Buckbeak’s room, and there he is found by Hermione. And here’s the thing: There have been a few conversations, a few kind of tough conversations between Harry and Hermione in this chapter or in this book so far, but for some reason, this one works, because I think it arises from genuine concern. Ginny is in there, Ron is in there, Hermione is in there, and they’re able to just… yes, they tell Harry to not flip out and stuff, but what they’re saying is “A lot of what you’re feeling is in your head, or it’s a confirmation bias. So it’s not that we’re avoiding you. You are literally going to Buckbeak’s room; we couldn’t even find you the first four rooms we looked in. You’re avoiding us, and we would like you to not do that, because we want to be with you, even despite this info.” And I think it’s just that forced care, that forceful care, that really at first helps break through and soften things for Harry.

Andrew: Yeah, I think sometimes when you’re really down in the dumps, you can have a hard time reaching out for help, or thinking that people won’t want to help you, or maybe you don’t want to open up. And you can see why Harry wouldn’t want to open up; he feels dirty, he feels violated, he’s feeling things he’s never felt before, so I can see why he would really be closed off. But good on Hermione for forcing her way forward and talking to Harry, because who knows how much longer this would have went on for?

Micah: She doesn’t have any time for that, and I think that’s honestly one of the refreshing things about her. And she wasn’t somebody, though, that was a part of this situation that Harry and Ron and the other Weasleys were for the last several days, right? She was removed from everything that had been happening to Mr. Weasley, so to get somebody that’s a little bit more so on the outside of what was going on, she just comes in and she’s not standing for any of it. I think she knows Harry in a way that Ron doesn’t, and they just connect differently than Ron and him do. And let’s not forget, this happened to Ron’s dad; it didn’t happen to Hermione’s dad. It didn’t happen to a relative of hers, so it’s a little bit of a different dynamic. And I’m not sure that even though Ron can sit there and be like, “Yeah, man, I’ve been trying to talk to you for the last couple hours or the last couple days,” has he really, though? We haven’t really heard about Ron approaching…

Eric: Whoa! This has become a… it went from a Dumbledore assassination episode to a Ron assassination episode.

Micah: I’m just… Ginny says some similar things, but we haven’t really been told about them approaching him. He’s secluded himself in the house, and I’m sure it’s a big house with lots of rooms and not easy to find him if he doesn’t want to be found, but I’m not sure how much effort has been made, to be honest with you.

Eric: Well, I’ll defend Ron here just very quickly and say that Ron might actually be thinking that he’s respecting Harry by giving him space. Different people have different ways of coping and cooling down, and sometimes that is isolation. Isolation is not always negative or always harmful in the way that it is clearly for Harry, because he feels like poison. But I think that Ron, in addition to not knowing what to say – he’s not as emotionally intelligent, maybe, as Hermione might be – but he also respects Harry enough to realize that sometimes you do need to just be alone.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Definitely. And I did find it somewhat interesting that Harry feels safe with Buckbeak; that’s where he goes to hide away. And it’s also somewhat comical that Buckbeak is still eating rats.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There’s a lot throwing it back to Prisoner of Azkaban.

Andrew: I think this proves that Buckbeak is actually Harry’s emotional support hippogriff. That’s canon now.

Eric: Well, there aren’t any other hippogriffs in the running.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

Andrew: Emotional support animals are really hot right now.

Eric: We’re going to bring that back. That segment… that clip has got to play more. So the biggest thing, and this is a great moment for Ginny – I’m a huge fan of Ginny; no surprise there – but she comes in, matter of fact, her emotions are set aside… except they’re not, because she wants to help Harry. You can feel it; she wants to help him. But she just straight up says, “Do you remember what you’re doing half the time? Do you know how you get everywhere that you get?” And Harry is like, “Yeah.” She’s like, “You weren’t possessed. I know because I was possessed, you’ll recall, and I didn’t know… I would wake up places, not know how I got there, etc., etc.” And this is really the first chink in the armor. This is the first time Harry knowing enough about magic to know that certain types of magic really are funneled into certain different ways that this beyond a shadow of a doubt… this tiny little question about maybe he wasn’t possessed; maybe the adults are wrong. Maybe it’s the wrong word. Maybe there’s hope for him not being the weapon, or for him not being toxic to his friends. All of this hope kind of overwhelms Harry’s faculties, and even during the conversation as it continues, as this sort of intervention continues, he’s immediately feeling better, and it’s all because somebody said, “Hey, I had this experience, and that’s not what you’re going through. Not to invalidate; you’re definitely going through something, but it ain’t that.” And Ginny is the only one who could say something like that.

Andrew: Yeah, and so he starts opening up a little more, and then he starts feeling better. And by the end of this scene, his heart swells with happiness and relief, because he thinks he is not the weapon after all. And I think this moment in between Ginny and Harry is just a great example of what happens when you do go and talk to your friends or a therapist; they can help you see alternate ways of thinking that you weren’t considering before. You were just thought spiraling. You were going one direction: down, down, down. Turtles all the way down. And then here comes Ginny, being like, “Well, you weren’t possessed, and here’s why, and it’s pretty simple,” and Harry is like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t even think of that because I was thought spiraling.”

Eric: Right. Well, it’s also a great ad campaign for having more than one friend, right? [laughs] Have a couple with different life experiences, and you’ll be stunned and surprised with the difference in perspective and how helpful it can be, to your point, Andrew.

Micah: And just looking at the situation holistically, I think we need to keep in mind Harry is 15 years old here. He’s not an adult, and it’s easy for us to sit here and to criticize his actions, but he’s a kid who, for the better part of his life, was forced to live in isolation. He lived under his aunt and uncle’s staircase, and it’s fair to say that he doesn’t know how to ask for help, and the adults that could be helping him are behaving like children themselves.

Eric: Any in particular?

Micah: Dumbledore.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But we’ll talk more about that.

Eric: I thought you were going to say Sirius, and I’m relieved. Phew!

Andrew: To Eric’s point about having different friends who give you different perspectives, I’m friends with Micah because it keeps me humble about Dumbledore. Alternate perspective.

Eric: It’s good for you!

Andrew: No, but I’ll build on your point, Micah, and just add that I don’t think any kid knows how to express their feelings or ask for help; it’s very rare in kids Harry’s age. And to your point, that’s why Dumbledore or another adult should have been more helpful in getting Harry to talk.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, although no one really knows what anyone else is going through, I think it’s pretty darn obvious that Harry Potter has been through more than anyone else in this whole world every one of the last several years. And if anyone needs a hug or an extra person to come in and say, “Hey, you all right?”, it’s going to be Harry.

Andrew: Or an emotional support hippogriff. Carly, listening live, says, “Buckbeak is actually Sirius’s emotional support hippogriff.” I agree with that.

Eric: Are we going to re-declare canon?

Andrew: [laughs] Nah.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I re-declare canon!

Eric: His word is true! So the big thing for me, too, is I would love it if we all – us as people in the real world, and the characters in the books – just were actually better about asking for help and reaching out to others when we’re feeling undone. If I’m getting down – and lately it’s happened a bit about different things happening in the world – talking it out, not even with someone I’m paying – a therapist, who’s great – but still, anyone. Talking it, saying it out loud, having a sounding board, somebody who cares about me as a sounding board is great. Martha is fantastic at listening.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: My cat, but also Meg. And it doesn’t have to be… if you catch up with somebody you haven’t heard about, you’d be surprised to know what their perspective on something might be.

Andrew: Yeah. I like talking about my issues with my emotional support hippogriff. But a good therapist will also tell you “You shouldn’t just rely on me to express your frustrations to. Talk to your friends.” Or you shouldn’t just rely on your romantic partner. Trust other people; open up to other people. You can’t put all of your issues on one person. You’re meant to talk to other people.

Eric: It takes a village. But in this case, the entire Order has been more or less forbidden from coming to Harry in this manner, because Harry is a special case that is Dumbledore’s to tell what’s going on, and Dumbledore has chosen to avoid him. That’s the problem; I think to some extent, none of the adults would feel comfortable reaching out to Harry because they don’t have answers, and that’s a common trapping of adults, right? Sometimes you just need to listen, right? You don’t need to show up with the solution.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But because Dumbledore has not really told any of the adults anything he’s thinking or anything close to what he’s thinking, they’re going to use the wrong words for things. They’re going to start thinking Harry is really being possessed, and that just makes things worse. So I think if Dumbledore was going to avoid Harry the way he has been, he should have deputized somebody to actually be the point person, actually somebody that he trusts to know a little bit more than what he’s telling Joe Schmo Order.

Andrew: Well, apparently Dumbledore and Hermione are talking; Hermione acknowledges that in the chapter, so Hermione could have been that middle man or woman. I think McGonagall could have been as well, somebody to express sympathy towards Harry and say, “I hear you. What you’re going through is tough.” There are definitely some good options who Harry, I think, would have connected with.

Eric: And I think this chapter, really, with this friend intervention, it’s really divine because these are the friends of his that he goes to the Ministry with at the end to save Sirius, to rescue Sirius. They’re all present in this room, except for Neville, who’s also present in this chapter, and… oh, maybe Luna, but she’s always supportive.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But I think this really does begin the process of Harry… it snowballs into Harry trusting others, and that’s why he even thinks of not just going alone, I think, is he’s starting to unlearn what he’s learned, to be independent and not ask for help, by the end of the book.

Andrew: I do love that when Harry is like, “Oh, but Voldemort could have transported me out of Hogwarts,” Hermione reminds him, “Well, if you actually read Hogwarts: A History, you’d know that you can’t Apparate in or out of Hogwarts.”

Eric: Well, here’s a moment when Ron steps in: Ron says, “Hey, mate, I saw you. You were in bed minutes before you woke up.”

Andrew: That too. Again, it’s basically what we’re talking about here. You start sharing your problems with people, and they help give you this array of evidence to make you actually feel better about a situation.

Eric: It’s wild.

Micah: What is interesting about what you’re saying about Ron, though, is was he willing to offer that information prior to this? Because he was clearly in a pretty challenging state of mind, given everything that had happened. Maybe if he would have shared some of that with Harry before a couple days after this all transpired, Harry might have felt a little bit better. Is that fair to say?

Eric: I don’t know that he withheld this information; I think with Ron, it’s like you have to ask a question to get a reply kind of thing. He’s not going to volunteer…

Micah: Yeah. Well, that goes back to some of my critique of him earlier, but again, he’s young. He’s the same age as Harry, and so I don’t really put blame at the feet of any of the children here. What I do have a problem with is the fact that the headmaster of the school is ten times the age of Harry in this chapter, and he’s behaving like the child. He’s not acting like the adult in the room. He’s running from Harry, “Ooh, don’t look at me, Harry. Don’t look at me.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Ew, cooties!”

Micah: Yeah. I mean, come on.

Eric: “I’m going to send Phineas: Go tell him to stay put.”

Andrew: Micah, let’s see how you behave yourself at 150 years old, all right? We’ll put a pin in this.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: All right, we’re going to go to an ad break while Andrew and Micah fight it out.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No, I will agree with Andrew that I think that Dumbledore has more to deal with than Harry understands at the moment, but he’s also the one that has all of the information, and sharing is caring. And I just think there needs to be more… I think Andrew and I can agree, before we head to the break, that Dumbledore needs to be doing more in this situation.

Andrew: Yes. Micah, I agree.

Micah: There we go.

Eric: Wow, you guys resolved that. I love that.

Micah: It’s the holiday season. We need to…

Andrew: All right, we’ll see you all next week.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Episode’s over.

Andrew: We’re in a good mood because of Easter/Passover.

Eric: And now a word from our sponsors.

Micah: Well, it’s Christmas.

Andrew: Oh, in the book. I thought you were talking about the Easter holiday and Passover. Okay, never mind.

Micah: It works on both levels.

Eric: So we’ve spent a fair bit of this time on today’s episode talking about characters who don’t do emotions well. Let’s talk about some positive moments now, because it turns out, after Harry is able to turn that corner and begin to see things a little bit more hopefully, there are also gestures of good will toward man, and really lovely things happening at Christmas at 12 Grimmauld Place and St. Mungo’s. Big thing for me is Lupin in this chapter. Lupin shows up, it turns out, at Grimmauld Place just in time, because Molly has received Percy Weasley’s sweater that was returned to her. And this is the kind of thing where, again, the kids are actually avoiding Molly. They’re like, “She’s inconsolable. We tried.” Fred and George, I think, tried to comfort her; it didn’t work. And yet Lupin, an outsider in the family, shows up and is actually praised for seeing immediately what the problem was and going to her. And this goes way back to Lupin and the chocolate when Harry is suffering from the Dementor effects the first time. He has the remedy; he knows what to anticipate and how to handle it. He knew what Harry was feeling, weak for having fallen to the Dementor, and he’s just the perfect person to comfort Molly just then.

Andrew: But it’s also so awful what Percy did. Sending back a hand-knitted sweater? That is so mean. That’s your mother!

Eric: To be fair, it’s like the ninth sweater he would have gotten. The ninth Christmas sweater.

Andrew: [laughs] But he’s a growing boy; he needs a new one. The other ones probably shrunk, or he lost them, or they smell bad.

Micah: Yeah, what’s he going to wear on casual Fridays at the Ministry?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s a good point. I didn’t think about casual Fridays at the Ministry. [laughs] Here’s something else, and we’re going to talk eventually about the best Christmas gifts of this chapter, but Lupin and Sirius… turns out Harry’s gay uncles both go in on a gift together, and it’s a set of practical defensive magic books, and this is just an example of somebody that knows Harry nailing it. A lot of gifts that Harry gets are good, some of the gifts he gives are good, but Lupin and Sirius really understanding the assignment, because Harry is – now that he’s not distracted by the whole possession thing – already starting to lesson plan for the new year, and that’s going to be great.

Andrew: Yeah, and I think another reason this gift is so thoughtful is because they know Umbridge is not teaching them any actual defensive magic; they’re not using it in practice. So I think it’s just really nice that Lupin and Sirius are trying to help him out at a time when the DADA class at Hogwarts is useless. And also excellent here is that Lupin was the DADA teacher, so to have him now continue to help Harry is pretty cool.

Eric: Ahhh. You know what? That’s cool. He could have been like, “This is the book that I relied on to plan things.”

Andrew: Yeah, “How I taught y’all.”

Eric: Ah, that’s so cool. Lupin being, of course, the best teacher that Harry has ever had. So wrapping up on Lupin, though, there’s one other thing he does that I think is maybe the sweetest thing that he does, which is when they’re at the ward at St. Mungo’s… we all remember that Arthur has a ward guest, a bed mate who’s a werewolf, and Arthur was trying to comfort this young man – last chapter we heard about this – and he was told to stuff it. The guy didn’t want to hear what he was selling, that he has a friend who’s a werewolf. Now Lupin is showing up; everyone is there seeing Arthur, and Lupin completely unbidden, unasked, intuits that he’s going to go and say something to this other patient, and this other patient who was looking so hopeful. So even though he eschewed contact and didn’t ask Arthur to talk to the werewolf, whatever, whatever, when you see ten people walk in on Christmas and you’re alone in the hospital getting better – or for something that isn’t even getting better – you don’t know. Somebody coming over and taking the time for you just for a couple minutes, whatever they’re going to talk about, but somebody who has something in common and can give you hope. The same kind of hope Ginny gave Harry, Lupin gives to this werewolf. “It’s not all over for you.” Amazing.

Andrew: Yeah, this was really nice character development for Lupin, and I thought it highlighted how people with similarities – be it a condition, a sexuality, a background, whatever – have to look out for one another. And I think Lupin’s comfort will go a long way when it comes from another werewolf, kind of like “It gets better” thing. “My guy. My wolf.”

Eric: Yeah. No, really. And sometimes you wouldn’t trust anyone other than somebody who’d lived and walked a mile in those shoes.

Andrew: Right. Exactly, yeah.

Eric: There are too many reasons to be suspicious of it. So I also think it’s nice to see, in general, that Sirius is happier than ever. I think Sirius Black’s happiness is probably at a series high. We know that he, too, has been feeling isolated, and now because of what happened to Mr. Weasley, everyone is staying at Grimmauld Place, which is much closer to St. Mungo’s than Ottery St. Catchpole. So I think that’s a really nice thing to see. I mean, Sirius is going around humming Christmas carols.

Andrew: His home is filled with people who he loves, and he’s helping the Order out. Maybe Christmas is his favorite holiday as well. Good thing he’s so happy now, because this is his last Christmas. There’s a bunch of reasons you can see why Sirius is in a good mood right now.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And who knows how many happy Christmases he actually even spent inside of Grimmauld Place?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Well, and they’ve decorated, which is really nice. And in fact, I mean, Sirius is kind of lulled into a sense of whatever the opposite of alarm is, because unfortunately, we found out during this chapter they still haven’t seen Kreacher in a little while. But Sirius is in such a good mood that he also doesn’t investigate further, because this is the kind of time where even Harry is noticing, okay? That’s how you know you have a problem. Harry is like, “Hey, come to think of it, I haven’t seen Kreacher,” and Sirius is like, “Huh. Yeah, I haven’t either.”

Andrew: “I’ll circle back after the holidays.”

Eric: I’ll circle back after the… yeah, he did the Dumbledore excuse.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And for us as the readers, it’s all being set up very craftily, especially given that Bellatrix’s photo is on full display in Kreacher’s nest – that’s what it’s referred to as – and she is later brought up at the end of the chapter as one of the main people responsible for the current conditions of Frank and Alice Longbottom. So we should definitely be very wary of where Kreacher is.

Eric: For sure. A couple other honorable mentions for people who are in good states and doing good for others: Arthur is thrilled to see people. He’s in such a good mood that he gets to confess his silliness, his folly, in trying to use Muggle stitches, which apparently wizards have never heard of, so Arthur has to explain it. And Molly, who sews, is like, “Oh, dear God, not that. Anything but that. Arthur, you didn’t.”

Andrew: Well, it serves as a vehicle to get Harry out of Arthur’s room. And stitches are effective for Muggles, so Molly is kind of overreacting here, even though it doesn’t work out for Arthur, but his attack was very unique, and that’s why the stitches weren’t working. I give him credit for trying.

Eric: No, that’s a good point. There’s no reason why stitches wouldn’t work, even on wizards, if it’s not a magically staying-open wound the way that we know it is. So there is that. And we actually see someone else in good spirits today; it’s Gilderoy Lockhart, their former DADA professor turned curious resident of the Spell Damage ward. And the interesting thing here… I’m not going to credit Lockhart for anything, but his handler is kind of going the extra mile to round up these children that just happen to walk by and they happen to remember him. They happen to notice him, recognize him. The handler pulls them into the room and says he rarely gets company, and they’re obligated, but they stay. They’re there for a decent amount of time.

Andrew: Spreading some Christmas cheer.

Micah: Do you think they feel obligated in any way?

Eric: Like, guilty?

Andrew: Because of the events of Chamber of Secrets? I think they’re feeling a little Christmas cheer; they want to spread some Christmas joy. But the handler also notes that Gilderoy never gets visitors, and I just think that speaks volumes to how fake of a person he was pre-memory-wiping.

Eric: 100%.

Andrew: He built no real connections with people during his coherent years, and so there’s nobody who loves him. And it’s sad, but it’s a reflection of who Gilderoy was. And I just loved this callback, getting Lockhart out of the blue. We never expected to see him again, and then he’s introduced over a holiday. It was a really interesting surprise that also added a lot of background to this character.

Eric: And I think, too, it just really works. There’s so many questions about who Harry is in identity and stuff, and to find Gilderoy here, it’s like a puzzle box of, well, what remnants of his identity are still in there? And what memories are coming back now a little bit?

Micah: I find it funny that we’re calling it his handler. The way I read it is it may even be his boo. They seem…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No, Gladys Gudgeon is his boo.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Well, she’s a fan. No, it’s just funny to me because of the way she talks. And I don’t know if it’s just kind of in cutesy speak because of the mental state of Gilderoy, or does she find herself maybe a little bit taken with him? We know he was appealing on some level to people.

Eric: A looker. What I’ll say to this, though, is that I think that that is the type of relationship that is perfectly normal and encouraged for nurses with long-term patients, is you have a familiarity.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: What I think you’re sensing, Micah, what we’re reading in this chapter is that she genuinely cares for his wellbeing, and that’s an uncommon thing to care so much if somebody else is getting the company that they need, or getting enough company, or stopping by. So I think that’s what it is, more than any romantic thing between the two of them. I think it’s her job to take care of him, and she probably views that as, again, a holistic sense, even if it means getting him some face time with a couple of people that he obviously doesn’t remember, but who might remember him.

Micah: And it can’t be easy for her to be in that kind of job. And do you think that the reason that Lockhart is in this scene is the setup for the Longbottoms? Because we’re able, probably, on some level to laugh a little bit about seeing Gilderoy again, and he’s still in this state, but we start to realize, the more that the trio and Ginny interact with him, how sad it actually is. And then it’s this big setup for Alice and Frank, and it’s like, whoa, this is actually not all that funny at the end of the day.

Eric: Right.

Micah: And we’re seeing the real effects of the first war, like when we talk often about the first wizarding war, and it’s appropriate that we do actually meet them in this book because it is the Order of the Phoenix. This is the second coming together.

Eric: Ahh, that’s a good point.

Micah: And for them, not all negative impacts of war are felt in those that we lose. People are impacted in other ways, and we see that come to the forefront in this chapter with the Longbottoms.

Andrew: There are things worse than death.

Eric: And the greatest thing I think about, again, continuing with people making the right choice and being there emotionally for one another, is that Harry is all too protective, making sure that… and trying to get no one to watch Neville and notice him. And when that fails, every one of these kids steps up and they’re somber and they don’t ask too many questions. I think maybe Ron does. But ultimately, they’re quiet and respectful to Neville, who is in this situation.

Micah: Isn’t it interesting, though, that you go from Lockhart, who they were probably pretty comfortable making some jokes on the side about given his current state…

Eric: He did it to himself.

Micah: Well, no question, but the conditions are not all that dissimilar between him and the Longbottoms. But yet, when they get to the Longbottoms, it’s because they know Neville and because of the situation. It’s like, “Okay, wow, hold on. This actually is really serious.”

Eric: Right, well, they had that done to them. They were tortured into insanity by Bellatrix Lestrange and Rodolphus and maybe Barty Crouch, Jr.

Andrew: And I think in terms of how the kids react to Neville’s parents, I think they’re getting hit over the head with a hard dose of reality.

Micah: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: I mean, they’re seeing firsthand just what the war did, and this is their friend’s parents. This is tough to see. And in such a raw state, too, not to mention unexpectedly. So tough times at St. Mungo’s.

Micah: There is a connecting the threads, though – like there is in much of this chapter – going back to Prisoner of Azkaban, because we get the introduction to the real Augusta Longbottom. We saw a version of her briefly in Prisoner of Azkaban via Neville’s boggart. But it is nice to meet her, even though it is under these circumstances, and it’s got to be impressive to Harry, Ron, and Hermione that she knows who they all are. It’s like one of those situations where maybe you meet your friend’s parents or somebody, and they automatically know who you are because your friend talks about you so much, but you’ve never actually…

Andrew: “Oh, I’ve heard so many good things about you.”

Micah: Yeah, it’s one of those moments. And just one other thing I wanted to mention before we wrap up the chapter is the infamous bubble gum wrapper theory. This was such a longstanding theory that somehow, some way, Alice and maybe Frank were passing messages to Neville via the bubble gum wrappers, and perhaps that would come into play in future books. Of course, we learned – think it was directly from the author – that that wasn’t the case, though. It was just a sentimental thing that she did with her son.

Eric: And yet, if you’re looking for clues, like the old J.K. Rowling website, there were bubble gum wrappers scattered all around on the desktop and around the…

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: And it seemed very plausible. We mention this every time this chapter comes up, but I think a big portion of that theory comes from Wizarding World Press and The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter. I wanted to read here because I was like, “You know, we credit it enough and we talk about this theory,” but here’s what was actually said: “First of all, who is giving the gum to his mother, and should we be suspicious of it? Neville’s mum did seem to think it was important that Neville be the one to receive the gum wrapper. Does she recognize him at all? If Neville keeps saving her wrappers, what’s he doing with all of them? Is there something special about the gum, the wrappers, or is someone doing something to them?” And it’s an open question. I mean, it was… eventually nothing came of it, but I love the possibilities of what might be occurring.

Andrew: While there wasn’t any truth to that very cool fan theory, it does end up being important because these gum wrappers mean a lot to Neville. I mean, they’re still a meaningful gift from his parents.

Eric: And that’s the thing, is whether she recognizes him or not – Alice – he’ll have this gift from her.

Andrew: Yeah, it is still a link between them. And I think you could see why Neville believes that she still recognizes her son, because she regularly hands over these gum wrappers.

Eric: And he pockets it. And Harry thinks that that’s sad, but I think it’s lovely.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: Yeah, couple of odds and ends before we wrap up today’s chapter: First of all, just rereading this chapter, it made me think that the removal of St. Mungo’s from the movies is even more shocking when you consider that Harry goes back there twice in the book. This wasn’t a one-off scene. There’s pivotal stuff happening here twice.

Eric: Eh, it’s all over Christmas break. We can just “Harry Potter, you saved my life, yes.”

Andrew: [laughs] Well, and like we said last week, this will just be one big “Max that” event.

Eric: Absolutely.

Andrew: Lots of opportunities.

Micah: And we got to meet… well, not really directly meet, but we were in the same room as Broderick Bode, and…

Eric: The Broderick Bode?

Micah: The Broderick Bode. The Unspeakable.

Eric: Oh my gosh.

Micah: And I think it was the last chapter, wasn’t it, where somebody was showing up to pay him a visit?

Eric: It was a wizard with an ear trumpet. I guess that failed to kill him, so they needed to put in the Devil’s Snare.

Micah: Yeah, so he receives a plant that will ultimately kill him. Guess they don’t screen at St. Mungo’s.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s the holidays. They’re okay with letting gifts slide through on the down-low.

Eric: Did we say this last week? It’s pre-9/11.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s fair.

Andrew: Yeah, you would think they would check that type of thing, because this place is about wizards and witches getting better, not worse or dying. So yeah, good call-out.


Superlative of the Week


Eric: It’s time that we talk about the Christmas gifts that were given in this chapter. What was the best gift someone received in this chapter for Christmas?

Andrew: I think it was Hagrid’s sort of mini Monster Book of Monsters book that he gave to Harry that actually is a wallet. Harry says that the wallet actually bites back at him, so in classic Hagrid fashion, it wasn’t totally spot on; there was something a little off about it. But I would want one of these wallets that bites at anybody who tries to get into my wallet. Of course, I should be able to get through. But I think it’s cool.

Eric: Yeah, maybe you stroke the bill fold or something.

Andrew: Yeah, and you whisper, “It’s me, your owner, your money daddy.”

Eric: You have to feed it money to keep it happy.

Andrew: [laughs] A dollar a day.

Eric: Pet it and take it out for walks, yeah. I’m going to go ahead… I already said this, but the defense books from Harry’s gay uncles. Thanks, Wolfstar. Literally, they don’t give two gifts; they give one gift as each other to Harry. I love it.

Micah: I’m going to go with Dobby’s picture of Harry, his painting.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Aww.

Micah: Look, it comes from the heart. And I will say this: Harry [censored] all over Dobby’s gifts. He did it in Goblet of Fire, too, and I don’t think it’s right.

Eric: No. And Harry took down all of Dobby’s hard work at the Room of Requirement, too, for Christmas break! All of the…

Micah: Right? What the f…? I’m not going to say the word, but…

Andrew: “Have a Very Harry Christmas.” That’s not a very Harry Christmas.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, come on. Dobby shows nothing but… maybe Harry should talk to Dobby about what’s going on. Your emotional support elf.

Andrew: [laughs] And then maybe Harry will start respecting those gifts that Dobby so kindly gives him.

Micah: He’s going to regret it in a couple books.

Andrew: Aww.


Lynx Line


Eric: And now let’s get over to our Lynx Line. I’m really looking forward to this segment. Picking up from the gum wrappers, we asked our patrons over on our Lynx Line, what is something someone gave you that has little or no monetary value, but which you hold absolutely dear and would be devastated to part with? What’s the story associated with it?

Andrew: Inspired by those gum wrappers, Emily said,

“I’m a teacher, and a few years ago I was working at a super toxic school. In addition to that, my husband was going through some health issues. I told my students a little about it (to explain absences), and one of my kids made the sweetest gift. He decorated a box and filled it with Reese’s and tissue paper flowers. It had a note saying, ‘I know you’re worried about your husband, but everything will be okay. Trust me.’ (I teach fifth grade, by the way.) He had also handwritten dad jokes to read to my husband. I’m at a new school now, but I will always keep the box to remember the thoughtfulness of a 10-year-old.”

Wow! That’s beautiful.

Eric: That’s amazing. Breann says,

“My dad makes a ton of different trinkets (like wooden gnomes, bonsai trees made of wire, fairy houses for kiddos) in his free time.”

Cool dad.

“Growing up, softball was always our thing. When I was hired as a softball coach at the high school I teach at, he surprised me with one of his bonsai trees sitting on one of the home run balls from my playing career that I had given to him. He had kept it all these years. It sits on my desk at school and always reminds me of him and the game that we both love.”

Micah: Amanda says,

“I have a picture of me and a stranger riding Hagrid’s Magical Creature Motorbike Adventure at Universal Orlando framed in my office. To be brief, several years ago I went on a birthday trip to Universal, but unfortunately, could not ride Hagrid’s due to my size (Universal rides are notorious for not being size inclusive). A year later, after lots of hard work, running, etc., I went back on a solo trip to Universal. When I tried the test seat and fit with no concerns, I was in tears and was so incredibly proud of myself. I shared how special this was with the team member there, and she not only escorted me to the front of the queue, she met me after the ride and gifted me this photo and shared how happy she was for me. I will never forget her kindness (she was even a Slytherin), and this photo means so much to me.”

Eric: What?!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Sorry, this takes me out of it. I think people are lying on Lynx Line submissions. I can’t believe this.

Andrew: Oh, no. Zachary said,

“I grew up on a street with three boys I consider my brothers. All of our families treated us as such. One of my brothers’ grandmother was an accomplished musician and conductor, and would always travel and bring us stuff from wherever she went. I have a coffee mug from Zach Theatre that I refuse to part with because of the sentiment. The mug is well over a decade old, and I still use it every week. Means more now that she’s no longer with us. Side story: Out of the four of us, three got tattoos representing Moony, Padfoot, and Prongs, and as a sendoff to our childhood, we got ‘Mischief Managed’ tattooed as well.”

Eric: I love that fourth friend that was like, “I’m not getting Wormtail tattooed on me.”

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, I have an idea. The four of us – including Laura, of course – should do this, and I’ll get Wormtail since the author called my old site Wormtail-y.

Eric: Oh, that’s true!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Okay, all right.

Andrew: I am a Slytherin, too, so I mean, I feel like that tracks, even though he was a Gryffindor.

Eric: I just looked at the… yes, the Zach Theatre is in Austin, Texas. These are really, really sweet stories. Kayla says,

“The only thing I can personally think of would be all the stuffed animals I was gifted in my childhood. I have about three that come to mind that I was given by family members, whether it be my mom, my cousin, or my dad. And even though I am no longer a child, I still have these stuffed animals because the significance of who gave it to me is what’s important. I have a fairly large stuffed tiger that’s lying down that my mom gave me when I was a baby, I have a kind of medium-sized stuffed pitbull that my cousin gave me, and I have a similarly medium-sized stuffed Rottweiler that my dad had gifted me. I keep them on my display bookshelf in my office, and will probably never give them away because of what they mean to me.”

Hey, I still have my stuffed animals too.

Andrew: I still sleep with a stuffed animal.

Eric: Really?

Micah: Pat?

Andrew: [laughs] No, his name is Lil Gouda. He’s a Squishmallow. I highly recommend a Squishmallow. I love him.

Eric: Lil Gouda?!

Andrew: Lil Gouda! That’s the official name. I didn’t… I wish I could take credit for that.

Micah: Send us a picture.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And finally, Carlee says,

“I’m an elementary school music teacher. I have one of those accordion folders where I have kept every drawing and paper gift that students have given me over the years. I put them up on the wall the day they’re given, and at the end of the school year, they go into the folder. I love looking back at ones from previous years while I put the newest ones away. Specialist teachers are often forgotten during gift-giving times like Christmas and Teacher Appreciation, so I really do treasure every little card and coloring book page I’m given.”

Andrew: Awesome. Well, thank you, everybody who participated in this week’s Lynx Line, and listeners, you can participate by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, [imitating Snape] “Occlumency.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. What was up on What the Hype?! this week, you two?

Eric: We are full steam ahead on The Last of Us, HBO’s show, and there is a lot of excitement there towards the new season. Micah recently caught up, too, so we hope to see you on some of those episodes.

Micah: Yeah, looking forward to it.

Andrew: Sweet. And then over on Millennial, we were discussing why Millennials think they are pros at surviving recessions, because we’ve been through more than one at this point.

Micah: It was a good episode.

Andrew: Thanks.

Eric: Honestly, what’s the opposite of a recession, and when have I experienced it?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: In this economy?! I’ve been saying that for 12 years.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: The London entrance to St. Mungo’s features a mannequin that moves and articulates. What is the name given to the ambulatory mannequins – meaning they walk – in the first episode of the 2005 Doctor Who revival? These were, of course, the Autons, the Autons driven by the Nestene Consciousness. I can’t believe that only 24% of people did not look this up. You guys, it’s classic! But correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Buff Daddy; Hufflepuff the magic dragon; I don’t know anything about Doctor Who, but I watched The Lego Batman Movie so I know about the little trashcan robots… that’s true. I think those are them. I learned joined-up writing to submit this answer… hilarious. It’s a Fez, Fezes Are Cool; It’s the last week of Lent, and I can’t wait to listen to MuggleCast again!; Still waiting for Micah’s cover of the Mysterious Ticking Noise from Episode 276, when I first started listening; Team Frenchy from the Black Rock; The Chosen Pun; The Duck’s True Sigma Love; and Tofu Tom. Wow. Okay, that was a wild ride. But here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What actor or comedian once eschewed autographs – meaning they said no – in favor of handing out cards reading “This certifies that you’ve had a personal encounter with me, and that you found me warm, polite, intelligent, and funny”? And it’s not Gilderoy Lockhart, by the way, for whom this question is based. Please submit your answer to the MuggleCast website’s Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on the website, checking out transcripts or something else – must listens page, where to find us, etc., etc. – click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Thank you, everyone, for listening. Don’t forget to leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. Make sure you follow us in that app as well, and tell a friend about the show if you think they could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. I am Andrew, your poor puffed-up popinjay.

Eric: I am Eric, the fan of the gay uncles.

Micah: And I’m Micah.

Andrew: All right.

Micah: See you next week.

Andrew: [laughs] Bye. And I’m seeing you next week, bye.

Transcript #701

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #701, Someone Call A Broombulance (OOTP Chapter 22, ‘St. Mungo’s Hospital…’)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We are your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books, the movies, and the forthcoming TV show. Make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app so you never miss a new episode of MuggleCast. And on this week’s episode, grab your tissues, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “St. Mungo’s Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries.” It’s a big chapter, one big adaptation-worthy chapter.

Laura: Absolutely.

Eric: Yes, I’m excited to talk about that. This episode was so big, this chapter was so big, that the last time we discussed it, we split it into two episodes.

Andrew: Oh, really?

Eric: That’s how big it is.

Andrew: Oh, okay, all right.

Eric: That was the only time we did that.

Andrew: So we’re going to be here for the next three hours, then. Let’s settle in.

Eric: [laughs] No, no, no. We said everything we had to say, and this will be a quick one.

Andrew: Oh, good. Okay, good, because I’m sitting on the floor and my left leg is already asleep, so this is going to be a long episode for me. [laughs]

Laura: We’ll see.

Micah: Well, maybe you need to go to St. Mungo’s, Andrew.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, I need a Healer. I don’t want a doctor. Healers seem to be way less scary, far less invasive.

Laura: Yeah, not those nutters that cut people up, as Ron refers to them.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, listeners, if you love MuggleCast and want to help us keep things running as smooth as Dumbledore’s wonderful network of portraits, visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge today. You’ll get instant access to over 150 bonus MuggleCast episodes, ad-free episodes, a new physical gift every year, the chance to cohost the show one day, and so much more. We could not do this without you, so we appreciate you like Albus appreciates Harry’s connection to the Dark Lord.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: And other great ways to support us: You can pick up merch at MuggleCastMerch.com; you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app; you can also send an owl to a friend about the show if they need some Harry Potter friends in their lives; and lastly, visit MuggleCast.com for more information about the show and to contact us.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: So without further ado, time for Chapter by Chapter!

Eric: The episodes – plural – in which we last talked about Chapter 22 were Episode 458, titled “Portrait Party,” and Episode 459, titled “Magicare for All.”

[Laura laughs]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 458.

Eric: He’s gone the other end of the extreme of ignoring him, that he really won’t call him out. And we see this… Harry is telling his whole story, and Dumbledore is really not even looking at him, not once.

Andrew: Well, Dumbledore is having a party with the portraits and McGonagall comes in, and it’s like, “Oh, McGonagall, come on, join the fun! You’re going to be headmaster one day anyway, so you should be a part of this.” And then, “Oh, there’s the buzzkill, Harry Potter.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “My scar hurts. Umbridge hates me.”

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 459.

Micah: I thought that when Dumbledore sent away Fawkes earlier in the chapter that was going to be to come cure Mr. Weasley…

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: … because Fawkes has a history of healing snake bites.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Oh my God! That’s a huge plot hole, actually.

Laura: Yeah, come on, Dumbledore.

Andrew: You see this phoenix fly into St. Mungo’s; maybe that would have been a little much?

Eric: Wait, why don’t they just have a team of phoenixes as Healers at St. Mungo’s, and they just cry on the wounds and heal everybody?

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: This is a huge plot hole.

Laura: Well, I think they’re incredibly rare, so I don’t know if they could have a team of them.

Andrew: Breed ’em. I know a guy in Oklahoma who may be up for the task.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: I was going to say, Andrew, you sounded like you were from my parts just then. [in a southern accent] “Breed ’em.”

[Andrew laughs]

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Eric: Can you tell we’ve all moved on to the Tiger King era of the pandemic?

Laura: Yeah. Oh man.

Andrew: Ohh, okay, I was trying to figure out what that was a reference to. That’s funny.

Laura: Oh, gosh. This is such a time capsule, in so many ways. Good grief.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Getting into this chapter – I think we called this at the beginning of this episode – but literally, we need to Max this entire chapter, because this is pretty much one of the big world-building opportunities that the movies did not take, and there is so much richness of detail going on here. I think you get a better understanding of Harry’s inner turmoil in this chapter, too, that I don’t think we get to see portrayed as deeply in the films, because they didn’t have enough time, quite frankly, to adapt the entire book. But yeah, Eric, tell us about 2007. What passed the sniff test then, and what do we need now?

Eric: In 2007 we got Mark Williams – fine actor – in a paper crown raising a glass to Harry. Great. Amazing. “To Harry! He’s great!” But rereading this chapter has shown us that there is so much more. This chapter has amazing things with Tonks, Moody, Sirius, former headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts, and everyone and everything at St. Mungo’s! All of that, all of it, was omitted from the movie.

Laura: They’d better not leave it out this time, or we’ll have something to say about it.

Eric: Or else!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, that’s right.

Eric: They’re going to need a phoenix to take care of… after we’re done with them.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Would you say this was the first of many mistakes for director David Yates?

Eric: No, no. That’s… wait.

Laura: Oooh, shots fired.

Micah: That’s not his fault.

Andrew: I do like to remind the audience from time to time, we ended up hearing that Warner Bros. seriously considered splitting Goblet of Fire, the book, into two movies, and if they had gone through with that, presumably they would have done the same for Order of the Phoenix, Half-Blood Prince, and then, of course, they did for Deathly Hallows.

Eric: Slippery slope.

Andrew: Yeah, and I’m sure the movies would have done great, Goblet of Fire 1 and 2, and yeah, they would have kept it up. And yeah, we probably would have gotten some of St. Mungo’s, I think. But yeah, it wasn’t David Yates’s fault. And this is my favorite book and one of my least favorite movies, because they skip over so much, and they advance the plot with newspaper headlines and it’s just, oh, so…

Eric: Oh, right. I did forget about this.

Andrew: I don’t want to call it lazy, but just hacked. It’s hacked together. Stitched.

Laura: It’s a little lazy.

Eric: I think it’s real creative with the montages. I actually love Order of the Phoenix because the things that they managed to condense feel right to tell one story, but this chapter does have so much that… it is Harry, it’s what he’s going through, and I think that the TV show would be able to devote the proper time to going through some of these things. So it’s just…

Micah: Well, I hope so.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: The question I wanted to ask, though, is do you feel like because the world opened that much more with the Ministry of Magic, that they decided not to then include St. Mungo’s? They sacrificed one for the other.

Eric: Yes, it’s like in The Sims or in Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater create a skater park where you reach the size limit. They can only introduce one new place per movie; otherwise, the pacing is off. The budget is off. It’s crazy. I think this discussion warrants a certain audio clip to be played.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Micah: You know, every time I hear that, I’m expecting the Game of Thrones theme to play after it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Right?

Micah: It’s just the way it’s synched in my head.

Eric: And how many shows have we seen on HBO since then? But still. I’m the same way, Micah.

Micah: It’s always Game of Thrones for me. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, same. Well, back to this particular fantasy universe: Harry and Ron find themselves swept away by Professor McGonagall, who does believe Harry. At the end of the last chapter, he’s very insistent, and he thinks no one believes him about this vision he’s just had. And he’s very insistent, saying, “I’m not making it up. I wasn’t dreaming. It was real.” She says, “I believe you, Potter. Let’s go.” Takes Harry and Ron to Dumbledore’s office, where Harry recounts the events of his dream to Dumbledore in front of Ron, by the way, which definitely feels awkward when he gets to the part about being the snake that attacked Arthur. And to Dumbledore’s credit, Andrew – I’m going to give your boy some love here…

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Yes, yes, yes.”

Laura: … he gets into action immediately.

Andrew: Yes. Quick. Efficient.

Eric: Well, it’s about time!

Andrew: Life-saving work.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It is about time. And it’s good to see, though! I mean, the way he immediately gets the band together to investigate this situation that Harry is sharing with him, it’s impressive.

Eric: After three months of sitting up in his office and throwing ragers with the other headmasters, Dumbledore is finally getting to business.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I also do love how nosy the portraits are in this scene, but you also can’t blame them, given how boring it must be to be hanging around in a portrait all day, no matter where you are. I think being in Dumbledore’s office is probably one of the more interesting places to be hanging, unless you’re in a very busy hallway in Hogwarts. But yeah, they’re all pretending to sleep, but they’re definitely listening in, which I think we’ve all been there, right?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: We pretend we’re asleep so our parents can start talking about things that they wouldn’t otherwise.

Eric: Yeah, that’s the only way to learn how your parents really feel about you.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That or Extendable Ears.

Laura: Well, you called out the portraits, Andrew; so Dumbledore is speaking specifically to Everard and Dilys, who are former headmasters. And what I love about this moment, and kind of what it implies to me is that it’s Dumbledore’s expectation that all of the portraits are being nosy, because he might need them to act on his behalf at the drop of a hat. And we learn that Everard and Dilys have these special portraits that they’re actually allowed to vacate in order to go to a different portrait at a different establishment, and this is where we get our first hint about what was up with the empty portrait at Grimmauld Place that Harry kept hearing snickering coming from while he was there over the summer. But it ends up being pretty cool, because we find out that Dilys was at one point overseeing St. Mungo’s, so that’s where her portrait is, and that Everard apparently has a portrait somewhere near where Mr. Weasley was standing guard in the Department of Mysteries, and he was able to go there and make sure the right people found Arthur. So it’s actually pretty brilliant to strategically place people in this way and make sure that Dumbledore literally has all the chess pieces close to the vest in his office.

Eric: Yeah, it’s like having a web of spies without ever leaving the office. It’s like having all your contacts and your Rolodex who can find out information for you are just right there on the wall.

Micah: How convenient, for somebody who is a master manipulator to have a web of spies.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or a web of portraits. But what I found so interesting about this is for the number of times we’ve been in Dumbledore’s office, we’ve never seen it operate in this way.

Eric and Laura: Right.

Micah: But it’s almost like getting a peek behind the curtain, a little bit.

Eric: I would agree with that. I think that where… we’ve always seen these old former headmasters sort of napping. The way in which Dumbledore utilizes this network and springs into gear is totally new to us, and I think it has to do with… it’s not for Harry’s benefit necessarily, but for us as the readers, this is our, I don’t know, tenth or eighth time in Dumbledore’s office. We are getting more information as far as how this place operates and how Dumbledore operates, which is essential to, I think, making sure Dumbledore has any plot in this book.

Laura: Yeah. Well, he also puts Fawkes on Umbridge patrol. We do get to see towards the end of the chapter, before everybody takes the Portkey to Grimmauld Place, Fawkes… there’s just a flash in the room, and a golden feather appears, and Dumbledore is like, “Oh, shoot, she knows you’re out of bed.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: So that was the Fawkes signal. But Fawkes is also communicating messages at the same time; they get a letter from Mrs. Weasley, for example, accompanied by a gold feather. So Fawkes is doing the Lord’s work over here, guard duty and letter delivery. We also read about this fragile silver instrument, and the only way I can think of to describe this is that it’s like a very eclectic, magical magic 8 ball, where Dumbledore is asking it a question, and it is presumably giving him an answer. Micah, can you remind us what that answer was? Even though we don’t get it confirmed in this book.

Micah: So I looked up what the author had to say about this in particular, and she said that “Dumbledore suspected that the snake’s essence was divided – that it contained part of Voldemort’s soul, and that was why it was so very adept at doing [Voldemort’s] bidding.” So I’m curious, do we think at this point he also figured out that Harry was a Horcrux, hence his ability to see through the eyes of the snake?

Andrew: I think so, because he was already curious about Voldemort and Horcruxes as early as Chamber of Secrets with Tom Riddle’s diary. At this stage, with a few more years of research under his belt and seeing what happened to Harry, yeah, I can see him being pretty convinced at this point that Harry is a Horcrux.

Eric: Yeah, and just based on what he asks Harry… Harry has kind of avoided mentioning that he was the snake up to that point, and Dumbledore is really fishing for that thing that’s going to confirm it. So with the instrument, Dumbledore learns that the snake is a Horcrux, and with Harry’s reply, can reasonably assume that they all are Horcruxes.

Laura: Yeah, it is noted that Dumbledore wears a look of “grim satisfaction” when…

Eric: He’s like, “Yes, I got it! Oh, poop.”

Laura: Yeah, it’s basically like, “Ugh, I hate it when I’m right.” That’s Dumbledore, basically.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Sucks always being right.

Eric: It’s funny, though, that Laura, you’d say that the instrument is a bit like a magic 8 ball, because that’s also what it’s like to ask Dumbledore a question before Book 7. You’re like, “Hey, Professor, why is this happening?” He’s like, “Reply hazy, Harry. Try again later.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yep, basically.

Eric: “Alas, the first question you ask, I don’t know. Can’t answer.”

Laura: And then at the end of this book, he’s like, “I’m going to tell you everything, except… I’m not going to really tell you everything.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “Whatever will fit on this little blue triangle.”

Andrew: “I’m going to tell you everything, because now the magic 8 ball is giving me permission to do so.” Do we think “in essence divided” is also potentially foreshadowing the fact that Harry is a Horcrux too?

Eric: Well, between this “in essence divided” line and then the full text of the prophecy, “Neither can live while the other survives,” it really sells that there is sort of this intertwinement happening between Harry and Voldemort. But there were clues before now; the gleam of triumph moment from the previous book, when Harry has just revealed that Voldemort used his blood, and so that’s another way in which… there’s just so many ways in which they’re connected that I’d be surprised if that instrument didn’t say “same essence, divided.”

Laura: Yeah. Well, Dumbledore is still a man of action here. He sends McGonagall to get the other Weasley kids, and he sends Phineas Nigellus Black to inform Sirius that Harry and the Weasleys are coming for Christmas because, surprise, that other portrait at Grimmauld Place is Phineas’s secondary portrait. And Phineas is such a diva here.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Why is he so obsessed with himself? Honestly, the casting of Simon Pegg as this character was spot on, and they really should get him for the show.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: It was also an interesting bit of lore that we learn here, because the other portraits start getting mad at Phineas that he is not assisting Dumbledore as he is supposed to as a portrait in his office, and one of the witches in a portrait starts brandishing her wand in sort of a threatening manner. And now I’m wondering, what exactly could she do to Phineas? Can these attack each other? Can it hurt the portrait version? What are the repercussions of being attacked?

Eric: Yeah, if not physical pain, then certainly emotional trauma. I’m trying to think of… the Fat Lady is attacked by Sirius, and that bothers her quite a bit, I think, more than just her vanity. You’ve got to imagine that the portraits have some level of ability to feel or sense when someone’s coming in to attack them because they won’t do their job.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, and presumably, if you’re not doing your job and you’re hung up in the headmaster’s office, you can be demoted.

Eric: Ohhh.

Laura: And I don’t know what that means for a portrait.

Micah: Toilets.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Bottom of the ocean. The most boring existence.

Micah: Snape’s bedroom.

Laura: Yeah, I’m imagining them just getting piled up in a broom closet somewhere.

Andrew: Yeah, that would suck.

Laura: And spending eternity there. I don’t know; I would be motivated to be helpful because I would want to stay in the office.

Andrew: And what else are you doing all day?

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I mean, the only argument Phineas has is that it’s late at night, but you’re sleeping all day. You’re like a cat or a dog; all you do is sleep, as a portrait. You’ve got nothing else to do all day.

Eric: Yeah, and I love, though, that there is this sort of dual purpose, because it’s very common for famous past heads of a school to be represented in some form in a portrait in the school later; that just makes sense. We honor those that have come before. But this network of spies aspect… these headmasters are essentially lending their expertise to the degree which portraits can retain their knowledge or even just personalities. They are all additional helpers for the current headmaster of Hogwarts. It’s like ever since presumably day one, every headmaster that has come can continue to help with the running of the school by existing in this form in the portrait that’s enchanted. So I love this idea that they have this honor-bound duty to help and assist, and Phineas is just not having it.

Micah: Part of it, though, is… I would wonder a little bit more about Everard and Dilys, and maybe what House they were in. When you think about Phineas, he was in Slytherin, so there’s probably a natural tendency right off the bat for him to be combative with somebody like Dumbledore. And there is also the fact that he’s sending him to go to his family home, right? At least as it stands right now; I don’t know how many generations of Blacks lived in Grimmauld Place. But there’s more to this, and so I think it’s not just him being a diva; it’s him being able to create a little bit of controversy because of who he is.

Laura: Do we think this is how the Order communicated before during the first war, or have they kind of tuned things up here?

Andrew: Portraits?

Laura: I mean, portraits, using Fawkes in the way that they’re using him, the fact that, of course, we learn they use Patronuses as well… I’m just wondering if they learned anything from the last war apart from the Fidelius Charm isn’t foolproof, so maybe don’t use that one again. [laughs]

Eric: It’s a good lesson.

Micah: I would have to wonder, just going off of what we were just talking about with Phineas, that using portraits comes with risk. Who knows if you can actually trust them, either to do the work that you’re requesting of them, or to not share information if they have a portrait somewhere else?

Andrew: That’s interesting.

Eric: It is interesting that this book does seem to have a subplot of security measures and how they fail. Kreacher is another example, who interprets Sirius’s flippant remarks to give himself permission to leave, which Dobby could already do. So house-elves aren’t secure; portraits, we just made the case, aren’t secure. It’s a real shame. But I think the one thing that is happening now that didn’t happen to the Order the first time is this aggressive oversight of the Floo Network specifically, and this is a problem now because potentially, Dumbledore would be able to utilize the Floo Network in getting the word out or in saving Mr. Weasley. He doesn’t have that option because it’s now being monitored by Umbridge, and so that’s kind of the thing that… I think that’s why we’re seeing Fawkes used in this way; we’ve never seen Fawkes used before, and all this other stuff. I think the Floo Network would probably be unregulated, or it’s the kind of thing where you’d have to know where to look, but if you’re at Hogwarts and somebody’s watching over Hogwarts, they could find you if you try and use it.

Laura: Yeah. I did find it so interesting that Umbridge apparently just knew that they were up and out of bed.

Andrew: Yeah, why is that?

Laura: Does she have invisible alarms triggered by common room entrances if people are coming and going in the middle of the night? I’m just wondering, is Mrs. Norris spying and then reporting news back to Filch?

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Is she enlisting other Hogwarts students to spy within the Houses at night?

Eric: That would mean a Gryffindor.

Andrew: Right, I know!

Eric: That would mean there’s a budding Peter Pettigrew who went and told her.

Andrew: [laughs] Aww.

Eric: Peter Junior.

Laura: Yeah. I would say Percy, but he’s not there anymore.

Eric: Oh, that’s… yeah.

Micah: Laura, you just mentioned Mrs. Norris, but it’s McGonagall who tells her to shoo away on their way to Dumbledore’s office, so maybe there is something to that.

Eric: There you go.

Micah: That’s probably how she found out.

Eric: Man, I had this whole idea of Umbridge just has a scream detector in Hogwarts, and when she’s not causing a scream, she perks up.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Something else is going… because Harry was very noisy, but he’s up at the top of a tower, so I don’t think you’d really hear it. But yeah, Mrs. Norris, got to be the way.

Laura: Andrew, what was the original intent with this attack on Arthur?

Andrew: Yeah, so I love this bit of behind-the-scenes info because of course, when you’re writing a series like this, you have to make a lot of major decisions, and maybe at one point you’re convinced you’re going to kill a particular character, and then you change your mind. That’s actually what happened with Arthur Weasley. The author said that she thought about killing Arthur because parents had to die in order to raise the threat of Voldemort in the series, but she also said in a tweet that “Arthur lived, so Lupin had to die. I’m sorry. I didn’t enjoy doing it. The only time my editor ever saw me cry was over the fate of Teddy.” So I find it very interesting that Arthur almost died here, but I’m glad he didn’t, because I think it’s wonderful that Harry did actually see this attack happen and was able to save Arthur thanks to it.

Eric: I do agree that if Arthur had died, apart from what he brings to the Weasley family in terms of, I don’t know, continued comfort until Fred’s death, I think the fact that Harry was the snake would have been absolutely awful if he had really died. Because Harry never would have forgave himself.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: And that would have been an even deeper kind of scar that never would have left Harry.

Andrew: And so soon after watching Cedric die. Augh!

Eric: And I think, too, it would have put Dumbledore in hotter water for not explaining this sooner. I think at the very end of this chapter, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Tonks says – or maybe it’s Moody – that Dumbledore seems to have been waiting for something just like this to happen, and this one is the confirmation. So this idea that Harry was not being prepared, or only after this occurrence he’s taken to Occlumency lessons, is sort of a part of neglect. If Dumbledore had any idea this was going to happen, he could have prepared Harry a little bit better, and because he didn’t, Harry is going to blame himself fully.

Micah: So Eric, I wanted to pull on that thread a little bit with what you were saying about Harry and how he would blame himself, because I don’t know that the Weasleys would ever forgive him. I don’t know that Ron and him would continue to be best buds throughout the rest of his time at Hogwarts. I don’t think that there’s a likelihood, just from how we see Fred, George, Ginny even react to him in this chapter, that that whole dynamic wouldn’t be completely shattered. So I have to imagine, from a writing standpoint, that was part of the consideration here, that if you kill Mr. Weasley in this way, it forever damages Harry and Ron’s relationship.

Eric: They’re never going to trust him. And I’m glad you bring that up, Micah, because I wanted to ask about Harry and Ron’s relationship. Ron is in every scene in this chapter… nearly every scene in this chapter. He’s quiet; he doesn’t say a thing. And granted, a lot of the Weasleys are in shock right now for very understandable reasons. But Ron is next to Harry when he’s telling Dumbledore, when they go to the office, when they’re at Grimmauld Place together, and just apart from shock, what do we think is actually going on in Ron’s mind? Is there this possibility that Ron is at some kind of friendship-breaking moment with Harry because he’s afraid of him, or weirded out or concerned?

Laura: I think there is something there, because at one point when Harry is retelling the story to Fred, George, and Ginny, but he’s telling it as though he observed it from the side and not from the snake’s point of view, Ron does cast kind of an awkward glance at him, because Ron heard the first telling of this story where Dumbledore got Harry to say, “I was the snake.” So I think Ron is probably feeling inner conflict right now between his best friend and his father’s life, because deep down, he knows that his best friend would never intentionally want to do anything to hurt Arthur, but when you’re in that state of fight or flight panic, some of that instinct is going to kick in, and I think that’s what’s happening here.

Micah: I do place a lot of the blame here at the foot of Dumbledore. And Eric, I see that you were questioning, why am I bringing up Dumbledore when you’re asking about Ron? But that’s kind of the point, because this is all taking place in his office, and clearly he has more knowledge about the situation at hand. Does he have to share all of it here? No, I will give him that. But he’s also the headmaster of this school; he has an obligation to these students, and given the traumatic experience that Harry has just been through, the way he treats him is unacceptable, and by association, the way that he’s treating Ron is unacceptable. They need a softer hand here, and they get sent off to arguably – maybe with the exception of Snape – the worst person that they could send him to, because he’s not emotionally mature or equipped to handle the situation, in Sirius.

Eric: Oh, we’ll get to bashing Sirius in a minute.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Okay.

Eric: I have a question… and I’m ready for it, and I largely agree. But is it clever, though? Is Dumbledore justified – everything we’ve just been talking about Dumbledore – is it justified, due to the last three seconds before Harry’s Portkey kicks in, and they make eye contact, and Harry wants to kill Dumbledore all of a sudden, he doesn’t know what’s going on…

Micah: Well, you would want to too. I mean, the guy has ignored you for months at this point; he’s not said but a word to you. He’s playing scared at this point. He’s so afraid that there’s this connection, which, yeah, there’s a connection. But you know what? Man up and deal with the situation.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: This is a fast-moving situation, and Dumbledore moves in a very quick manner, as we were saying earlier, and I don’t think there’s too much time for much else. I think the priority is to get all the Weasleys together in a safe location.

Micah: Well, there’s only been the last few months for him to work with Harry to better prepare him for a situation like this.

Andrew: Could he have anticipated this?

Micah: Well, clearly he anticipates they’re connected somehow; he hasn’t been looking at him all year.

Eric: Right, but it gets confirmed when they make eye contact. And here’s the thing: It’s not like Harry wants to kill Dumbledore because Dumbledore has been ignoring him. Harry is annoyed with Dumbledore because he’s been ignoring him. But this surge of hatred comes pretty much directly from Voldemort through Harry, and that’s what happens when they finally make eye contact. And so I think it retroactively might justify Dumbledore’s ignoring him, which hurts me to my core, but if it proves that there is this connection, that there’s so much more going on… and while I think there’s a way for Dumbledore to have been safe and done a lot of this two months ago, I think that when that occurs, you kind of as the reader, like, “Oh, Harry is volatile beyond his own control here.” We’ll obviously get more of this later, but that explains the way the last three months.

Micah: I don’t think it’s all Voldemort, though; I think part of this is Harry. I think this is natural emotion for the way he’s been treated for the last several months. I wouldn’t put this all on the Horcrux or Voldemort coming through Harry. I think some of this is Harry. Back me up, Laura, fellow Ravenclaw.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s the eye contact! It’s magic!

Laura: I was going to say this kind of makes me think about what we learn about Horcruxes in Deathly Hallows, how they affect some people more than others depending on what you’re going through at the time, so I can definitely see Harry being primed to be vulnerable to the Horcrux in this moment. So I think there’s definitely Horcrux impact here – there’s no doubt about that – but I think Harry’s mental guard is kind of down because he’s so angry, and that just makes him more susceptible to it. What do you think?

Eric: Yeah, I agree. It’s kind of like when we get into the Occlumency lessons later; after those lessons, after you’ve been stretching that muscle, you are weaker than ever and susceptible to damage, and so that’s what the warning is. And I think because Harry has just had this traumatic experience, he’s weaker, and I think it really means that Voldemort… even without Voldemort trying – maybe Voldemort is asleep somewhere – all of a sudden can basically see through Harry’s eyes, as they’re able to much, much later with Harry seeing through Voldemort’s eyes in Book 7. I think that Voldemort sees, all of a sudden, the man, the only one he ever feared, his sworn mortal enemy, right through Harry’s eyes all of a sudden, gets a vision of him, because this is what’s happening to another one of his Horcruxes, and I think that’s where the hatred comes from. And Harry would have… if there were another second before the Portkey took him away, I think Voldemort would have possessed Harry, which is a big thing, and actually attacked Dumbledore.

Micah: I don’t know.

Laura: I could also see Harry attacking Dumbledore.

Andrew: That’s a crazy thought. Dumbledore would probably successfully and quickly overpower him, and I think also understand where all of Harry’s rage is coming from. I would have liked to have seen that.

Micah: I also think it’s important to remember that Harry is a 15-year-old young man, lots of hormones raging given everything that just happened, lots of adrenaline pumping. And there is no greater sign of disrespect when having a conversation with somebody than to not look at them, and that’s what Dumbledore has done for months. And so I’m not saying that I disagree with the fact that Voldemort is part of this equation, but I don’t think he’s the whole equation.

Laura: Yeah. Well, let’s talk about when Harry and the Weasleys end up at Grimmauld Place. They take the Portkey from Dumbledore’s office. Harry briefly wants to attack Dumbledore, and we know that Ginny and the twins are ready to throw hands with Sirius, who’s trying to stop them from going to the hospital right now. And he rightly points out to them, “You all can’t show up at the hospital claiming to know about an accident that no one else has heard of yet.”

Eric: Oh, interesting! That seems like a good, mature point! That’s a well-thought-out argument!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It is. Unfortunately, it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it, and Sirius just isn’t… and it’s not his fault, but he’s just not equipped to deal with this super well, and it does kind of feel like a bunch of teenagers trying to reason with each other. But the person that I’m really most interested in here is Ginny, because Sirius talks about this, talks about how “You can’t go out claiming knowledge of something that has not yet come to pass, as far as officials and hospitals and even your mother knows, so you have to just stay put and let us work it out.” Ginny is the first one to silently go and sit down, and she spends the rest of the night sitting in calm, contemplative silence, and it makes me wonder if she’s putting two and two together here and realizing that Voldemort is somehow penetrating Harry’s mind.

Andrew: Well, isn’t that interesting coming from the person who had Tom Riddle’s diary?

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: I could see that. I could also see she’s watching all of these boys and men bicker, and she doesn’t want any part of it right now. And I think there’s just a common thread here with the Weasleys in this chapter, the Weasley kids, where they’re just left in the dark. And we’re going to discuss this a little later, too, but it’s really awful how they aren’t as informed as they should be, when it’s your father who was attacked. I can understand other people not knowing, even Harry not being told what happened to Arthur and why Arthur was there to begin with, but for the kids to not even know? That’s just wrong.

Eric: And I’m going to say something not the most toward about Sirius right now, but his first response about it all is that “Your father knew what he signed up for.” The kids don’t want to hear that!

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Sirius is like, “He was prepared to die. It’s fine.”

Eric: Ahhh. And Sirius values an honorable death; good for him. It’s right. He’s right. The kids did not want to hear that.

Micah: What do we think Sirius’s state of mind is at this particular moment? It seems, when they first arrive, that he might have been on a little bit of a bender.

Laura: Yep, he smells like stale liquor, I think the text says. It’s clear that he’s been knocking ’em back.

Eric: Me on a Friday night; am I right?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Knocking back… me recording Episode 700 of MuggleCast.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, the 423 is how many bottles I’ve… no. But yeah, I feel like Sirius is just happy. He couldn’t have asked for a better circumstance… terrible circumstance, but he’s so happy for company. And this speaks to something that Dumbledore takes credit for as a failing at the end of this book: leaving Sirius in such isolation. Harry knows how miserable Sirius is; it weighs heavily on Harry to the point where it’s the whole setup for why Sirius would recklessly go out and get himself in trouble at the Ministry later in the book. But for Sirius to finally have company, and even under these negative circumstances, the fact that they’re staying for Christmas, I think his life was just made, because he’s so lonely.

Andrew: And that’s why he’s probably drinking when we see him. Part of the reason.

Eric: I think he’s drinking because he’s miserable, yeah.

Laura: Totally.

Eric: Nothing better to do. No one to talk to.

Micah: I just think it comes down to the fact that at this particular moment, he’s not mature enough to handle this situation, and he lacks the ability to appropriately sympathize with Arthur’s kids. He’s not wrong in his overall approach in some of the things that he’s saying, but it just needs a softer touch.

Eric: Well, there’s no consequences for this. I think he does fine. The kids get to where they need to be.

Laura: Well, not to turn this into a hate fest on Sirius, but there’s another interaction in this chapter where he kind of drops the ball, in my opinion, and it’s with Harry. Harry pulls Sirius aside, hoping that of all people, his godfather would hear him out with his concerns about honestly feeling snakelike and feeling concerned that he actually does want to attack people. We see Harry later after this afraid to go to sleep because he’s afraid that he’s going to slither off and attack somebody else. He’s really trying to open up to Sirius about this, and Sirius is kind of dismissive about it. I don’t think he means to be; I think he’s trying, in his own way, to be reassuring, and saying, “It’s probably just residual energy from the vision that you had,” and not really taking the time to think about, “Hey, we know there’s some kind of connection between Harry and Voldemort. Maybe I should listen to what this kid is saying.”

Eric: Yeah, I agree. This is… Sirius misses the mark at being able to comfort Harry, because he largely doesn’t believe that it’s a threat or is connected in any way. I would say, for being a member of the Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore maybe should have clued in some of the Order members, including Sirius, that something like this might happen.

Andrew: Do we think Sirius has any idea of what actually is going on? Because I’m not convinced he does. And then my other question is, is Sirius just trying to make Harry feel better? Not worry him too much?

Eric: Yeah, Sirius is… the right answer when somebody comes to you in great turmoil and they’re a child and it’s 3:00 a.m. is “Go to bed; you’ll feel better.” And it’s the wrong thing to say to Harry; it doesn’t work, because obviously Harry has reasons why he wouldn’t want to sleep, but it’s that thing that Micah was saying about his overall approach, right? And so he’s like, “Harry, it’s okay. You’re still exhausted. You have this great ordeal. If you sleep, I’m sure things will be better in the morning.” And it’s not wrong that you’ll feel better because you’re sleep-deprived now, but it’s not what Harry needs. Harry needs somebody to believe him, and especially the fact that… Harry doesn’t like recounting this story. He hated doing it the three or four times he’s already had to do it, but he rushes into the closet with Sirius and is like, “I need to tell you what’s going on,” hoping to get something in return of equal value, and he doesn’t get it. Sirius has become an animal. Sirius is Padfoot, is Snuffles, is the dog. And so if Harry thinks he’s transforming into a snake, maybe Sirius has special insight about that, but none of it comes to light because Sirius hasn’t been prepped to believe Harry very specifically about all the snake stuff.

Micah: I think the reassurance he needed was from Dumbledore, not from Sirius, and he doesn’t get it.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Well, fortunately for Harry, the narrative quickly becomes “Thank God for Harry; thank God you were in the snake, because we got him in time.” And that is something – although Harry still blames himself to some extent – that really greatly eases the tension on the back half of the chapter for the rest of the Weasleys to be really, really worried. The fact that Molly’s letter soon comes and says he’s okay, or he’s alive, I think really is good for Dumbledore; he got lucky. Harry got lucky that Arthur is okay.

Micah: The one other thing I just wanted to raise about this part before we move on is there is another party that is privy to this conversation and is eavesdropping just outside the door, and that’s Kreacher. And it’s important, because it’s likely that this information is getting passed on to Voldemort, and that’s how he begins to learn about how strong the connection actually is between himself and Harry.

Andrew: So could you say that Sirius is suspicious of Kreacher, and he doesn’t know that Kreacher is listening right now, but he could potentially be overheard, and that’s why he’s holding his cards to the vest?

Laura: I don’t think so, personally. Not to speak for you, Micah. I don’t think Sirius thinks Kreacher is capable of that kind of betrayal at this point.

Eric: Well, Kreacher is loyal to Bellatrix – I think that should be made clear – and Narcissa by extension, because they’re all Blacks. But there’s a difference between Kreacher being loyal to Voldemort and going straight to Voldemort and being like, “This is what’s going on with the Potter boy,” and whatever he might convey to Bellatrix. Now, Bellatrix is at least smart enough to know what questions to ask, so I’m sure this later gets reported on about this dream kind of a thing that Harry has had. But I guess I’d be really interested as the book goes on to see what information does Kreacher betray that he’s overheard.

Andrew: To broaden my question out, maybe Sirius was just concerned about anybody overhearing them in this moment. The Weasley twins; what do they do within this chapter too? Use Extendable Ears. He might not just want to talk about and get into it. Right now is not the place or time to talk about this with Harry.

Eric: Yeah, maybe.

Laura: True.

Eric: It is a shame, though, because Harry… this is a great opportunity. All of a sudden you’re with your godfather, and you want to confide in him, and Sirius just can’t meet him.

Andrew: One of the last times you’ll get him alone.

Laura: After Molly arrives at Grimmauld Place and confirms that Arthur survived, the crew gets some breakfast, they get a few hours rest – except Harry; he is, as I said before, too paranoid to sleep right now – and they are off to visit Mr. Weasley at St. Mungo’s Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. Similar to the entrance to Diagon Alley, the entrance to St. Mungo’s is hidden in plain sight so that sick witches and wizards can dress in Muggle clothes to arrive in disguise. And when I read this, I immediately thought of Lucius and Narcissa Malfoy, and thought no way would these two ever deign to show up in Muggle clothes to get into this hospital. And that made me wonder, is there a private, more elite hospital or facility for people like the Malfoys?

Micah: Probably.

Eric: Oh, God.

Micah: They probably have their own doctor.

Laura: Who comes to their house? Yeah.

Andrew: There is precedent here in the Muggle world. I was living in the Hollywood LA area for nine years of my life, and one time I needed a doctor, and I called them up and they told me they can’t see me because it was a doctor’s office for celebrities only. Like, rich, well-known, high profile people only, and I couldn’t believe it. [laughs] They’re out there.

Eric: What? Your name wasn’t on the list?

Andrew: No, yeah. “But I’m a podcaster! You won’t see me?”

Eric: Yeah, “Don’t you know who I am?”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No, you invented The Sims.

Andrew: [laughs] I should have said, “I’m Will Wright, creator of The Sims.” Yeah, and then my other thought is it is an interesting idea that the pure-bloods might not want to dress up in Muggle clothing. But also, if your leg is in serious trouble, will you even change your clothes? I don’t know.

Eric: I think there’s another entrance. Here’s the thing: You’re not going to be forced to dress up, go through Muggle London to get there. That’s how these guys get here, but remember that they’re still being inconspicuous and undercover at the moment. There’s bound to be Floo fireplaces here at Mungo’s. There’s bound to be, I don’t know, a broom entrance, broom parking on the side, valet…

Micah: Right, these are visitors. These are not the people… think about the people who are being brought in. There has to be – to your point, Eric – another entrance that they’re coming through.

Eric: I will also say, if you are grievously injured, you have bites or an artifact did something horrible to you, you won’t care so much about what you’re wearing when you get there.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. I also do kind of find it a plot hole how they enter through this glass exterior, and no Muggles on the street happen to notice. And the reason in the book is because the Muggles can’t be bothered looking at ugly window displays? Come on, people are still looking in that general direction. This seems like a lazy entrance. She could have thought up something a little more clever, more believable.

Eric: I think it’s a combination of… well, it’s like if you remember Harry… this is Harry’s first and only time at the entrance of St. Mungo’s, but at the entrance to the Leaky Cauldron, I think, he’s able to track people’s eyes looking from the left of where it is to the immediate right; their eyes just dart across it. So there’s clearly a charm and a spell. Oh, same with Platform Nine and Three Quarters, another huge one that we sometimes get little bits of writing saying nobody’s actually watching them disappear through the barrier in general. So I think it’s that same spell…

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: … in addition to the joke dialogue, where it’s like, “Muggles don’t notice nuffink.” It’s all funny, but it’s all an explanation for why nobody’s watching them enter.

Andrew: Carly said, “I wonder if there’s a broombulance.” That’s fun. Instead of an ambulance, a broombulance.

Eric: That is fun, like a stretcher suspended between maybe two broomsticks.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. That would kind of suck to get whipped up by the wind as you’re being transported and you’re ill…

Eric: Oh yeah, that would be awful.

Andrew: … but that’s just the crazy wizarding world for you.

Eric: You know what, I got it: the carriage that Grindelwald breaks out of at the start of, what, the second movie? It’s got to be a little portable ambulance kind of thing.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, definitely has to be some kind of emergency intake. But speaking of the infrastructure of the hospital, we do get a high-level overview of the range of possible magical injuries, from unliftable jinxes to vanishing sickness all the way to broom crashes. So does the broombulance pick you up from the broom crash? I don’t know.

Andrew: I was going to say, maybe that’s why there’s no broombulances, because brooms crash and seriously injure people.

Laura: Yeah, perhaps.

Eric: And they’d always be having to upgrade. Think about how often a new broom comes out that’s faster, and then there’d be an issue if you… “Oh, these broombulances are still Cleansweeps; where’s my Nimbus? Where’s my Firebolt broombulance?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I like broombulance.

Andrew: Yeah. Grindelwald’s aerial carriage… doesn’t somebody get pushed out of it, or falls out or something like that? So maybe that’s not too safe either. I mean, don’t open the door when you’re in the air, but…

Eric: And it would kind of be a problem if Thestrals are taking you to the hospital. You wouldn’t have a high degree of confidence that you would get there safely, because of the bad things that are said about Thestrals. Bad omen.

Micah: He throws poor Antonio out of the…

Andrew: Antonio, that’s it. The lizard.

Eric: Oh, Antonio. He kisses him first.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Was it a chupacabra?

Andrew: That’s it, yeah.

Eric: Why did that exist?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, thinking about the various afflictions that we see referenced on the board at the welcome desk, does this imply that all other non-magically afflicted illnesses can just be magically addressed? I’m thinking what about cancer? What about heart disease? Are these things that wizards can just magic better, and if so, why are they holding out on everyone else?

Andrew: Yeah, do good for the world.

Eric: Statute of Secrecy.

Laura: Yeah, it’s true.

Andrew: No, but it is interesting to me that they can fix the Muggle injuries easily, but not magical damage. Look at Arthur still bleeding when Harry and co. come and go to visit him in the hospital. They can’t easily fix that? And yet they have a chip on their shoulder because, “Oh, we don’t have doctors; we have Healers. They can do everything without being invasive,” but they can’t fix Arthur. And I know that’s a special circumstance, being bit by Voldemort’s snake, but still. Check yourself.

Eric: I think it makes sense to me that magical wounds would be harder to heal with magic than non-magic. It’s just the next level of attack or damage.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But I do like the idea that there’s over-the-counter potions, or of the sort, for remedies that still trip us Muggles up. That would be cool if wizards have largely figured out… I mean, they can regrow bones. I think Arthur is taking a Blood-Replenishment Potion. Some of these things that are very just offhandedly mentioned would save real Muggle lives.

Laura: By the way, just quick shout-out here to Broderick Bode. We’ll come back to why you’re important later, buddy.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Good for you.

Micah: He had a visitor.

Laura: But nice, sneaking little reference to him in this chapter. Yeah, he did have a visitor. What do you think the visitor was there for?

Eric: Probably to silence the Unspeakable forever?

Micah: Moral support? [laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah. Moral support, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, moral support to make him be quiet forever. [laughs] Well, as is called out, Arthur is pretty chipper despite the fact that he can’t stop bleeding. And this made me wonder if… we know there’s something special about Nagini’s poison that prevents his wounds from healing. Is this a Maledictus thing? Are all Maledictuses deadly in some capacity when they’re fully transformed? Or is this just Nagini’s specialty because she’s Voldemort’s?

Eric: It’s hard to say, but I think it is a Maledictus thing, because the Maledictus is referred to as a blood curse, and so everything about Nagini is cursed.

Micah: I just don’t know if the author had determined that Nagini was a Maledictus at this point.

Andrew: I haven’t gotten that impression.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think… I think that was a little bit of a retcon, if I had to guess. [laughs]

Eric: Assuming, then, if at this point in the story’s development, writing, and publication that she’s not a Maledictus, then the answer has to be she’s just a venomous snake.

Micah: With special powers.

Eric: Exotic enough to throw the London wizards for a loop with her venom. But there is precedent in nature for the saliva preventing wounds from closing of venomous creatures.

Laura: Yeah, that is a real thing for sure. But Arthur has other more pressing concerns, right, Micah?

Micah: He wants to see where the Muggles are being treated that have been brought to St. Mungo’s. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, Arthur.

Micah: And I do just love that his love for Muggles just continues to shine through, no matter the situation that he’s in. But part of that, I think, is a misdirect.

Andrew: Oh. Yeah, it could be partly that. But I think this also just speaks to his current spirits and health, that he’s able to think about something like that, as opposed to his own health. He’s ready to get out of the hospital, he says in this chapter, if it weren’t for the fact that he keeps bleeding. So he’s in good spirits; he’s feeling like he’s basically recovered, or on the road to recovery, and he can get back to his passions of rubber ducks and other Muggle things.

Laura: But yeah, I think Micah is onto something with saying that this might have been an attempt to distract, because we see Fred and George really trying to grill Mr. Weasley about what he was doing and why he was doing it, what exactly happened to him, and Mr. Weasley is coming up with every bit of distraction fodder that he can to try and get them to change the subject. And ultimately, Mrs. Weasley shuts it down, and everyone gets kicked out of the room, to which Fred and George pull out those Extendable Ears again, which… they’re a bit of a blessing and a curse because unfortunately, this time around, Harry gets to overhear Mad-Eye, Molly, Arthur, and Tonks talking about him very, very candidly in front of all of his friends.

Andrew: Careful what you wish for.

Laura: And that is where our chapter ends. Pretty awkward.

Andrew: Yeah. Again, I find it messed up that Arthur and Molly aren’t giving at least their children a fuller picture of what went on. I think that’s messed up. Imagine if that was our parent, and we didn’t really know what happened to them or why, or where they were. They almost died, and we’re not getting answers? All because they’re in the Order of the Phoenix, “Greater good, he was prepared to die…” Stop. It’s still the parent.

Eric: Yeah, I think we could actually blame that one on Molly and Arthur, because they would be afforded some level of discretion to communicate more circumstances. Dumbledore wouldn’t be super happy with them if they did, but he also wouldn’t be like, “No, you couldn’t tell your kids.”

Andrew: “Don’t tell your…” Yeah, “I’m going to be the parent now. I’m barely Harry’s parent, and now I’m going to be a parent for the Weasleys.”

Eric: Because Dumbledore is all about the greater secrecy and stuff, but Arthur is the one who firmly chooses to be like, “That’s my business where I was. Sorry, guys.”

Micah: I’m interested to see how the story gets spun, though, because you’re talking about the Head of the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office being down to the Department of Mysteries. What exactly was he up to? And his kids are smart enough to know that he was doing something related to the Order, and they get pretty close, but he’s… and I also just don’t think this is the right environment for this conversation to be happening, too, because they’re in a public place, even though there’s only two other people that are in the room with them, in these beds near Arthur. But you don’t know who’s listening. I don’t know. I just feel like it should have been a pull-aside conversation where Molly gives a little bit more information to the group, because I don’t think it’s fair that Harry gets revealed in this way either.

Laura: Yeah, agreed. I mean, don’t they know about the Extendable Ears at this point too? It’s not a secret that the kids have them.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Can’t Mad-Eye see what they’re doing?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: See, this is what I’m saying about Sirius. He knew people… there were prying ears around.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I did want to just say, too, I thought it was pretty rich that Mad-Eye feels entitled enough to say that they all know there’s something off about the Potter kid.

Laura: Oh, yeah, because he’s one to talk.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Right.

Andrew: “Mad-Eye” Moody has this to say about Potter.

Micah: Takes one to know one.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Takes an eye to know an eye. A Mad-Eye, you could say.


Odds & Ends


Laura: And just one odd and end this week that I thought was interesting: They’re kind of laying the groundwork in this chapter for what ends up happening to Bill, him becoming a werewolf when he’s attacked by Fenrir Greyback in the next book, because one of Mr. Weasley’s roommates is a werewolf, and Molly actually shares… she expresses some nervousness about Mr. Weasley sharing a room with a werewolf. She asks him, “Is it safe?” And Mr. Weasley is like, “Of course it’s safe. He’s medicated.” And he’s doing the gracious and good thing by talking to this person and letting them know and reassuring them, “Hey, I know somebody who finds the condition pretty easy to manage, stay on top of it, you’re going to be okay,” and I think this just perfectly establishes that Mr. Weasley has the right attitude towards the condition that his son’s about to have in about a year. So I thought that was nice.

Eric: I like that. Also, it’s such a Mr. Weasley thing to just befriend and try and offer some comfort. You’re both in… “What are you in there for?” and kind of just try and cheer up. It’s also a Mr. Weasley thing that he fails miserably at it!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That guy does not want to hear what Mr. Weasley has to say. Threatens to bite him. So I think this chapter does a good job of making us appreciate that Mr. Weasley was not murdered.

Laura: He’s too wholesome to be murdered.

Eric: Yeah, too pure. Unlike Hedwig.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]


Superlative of the Week


Laura: Well, I think we all know that one of the worst things Mr. Weasley could do while he was guarding the freaking prophecy was to fall asleep, which is what we know happens. He kind of nods off, and that makes him susceptible to this attack. What is the worst thing to do on duty while guarding the prophecy, from our perspective? And we aren’t allowed to pick sleeping, because Mr. Weasley already did that.

Andrew: So I’m sitting there in my chair on my phone. I’m going, “Five letters… last one is a C… MERLIN’S BEARD!” I was playing Wordle. Five letters?

Laura: Yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: And the word is “Magic,” by the way, because it ends in a C.

Eric: Ohhh! Oh, I love… Wordle! Oh, I love that.

Andrew: [laughs] Remember Wordle?

Eric: I hope you would get signal down in the basement of the Ministry of Magic. But yeah, I love that. I would probably be doing what I’m doing any other day of the week, which is dancing and singing along to The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess. [to the tune of “Pink Pony Club” by Chappell Roan] “I’m gonna keep on dancing down on sub level four…”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I’d say probably leaning against the shelves. Not a good idea.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, causing some problems.

Eric: Oh no.

Laura: That’s how you destroy all the Time-Turners. Until Cursed Child, of course.

Eric: Until Cursed Child.

Laura: And then I picked something that sounded like a uniquely Arthur thing to do if he’s sitting in silence, bored and trying to entertain himself: attempting to enchant a loud Muggle device, like an alarm that ends up blaring endlessly and being unable to turn it off. That’s another way to alert the snake where you are very, very quickly. All right, well, thanks for playing along with me on that, y’all.


Lynx Line


Laura: We also have our Lynx Line. MuggleCast listeners who are members of our community over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, and the question is: If you were a Healer at St. Mungo’s, which floor of the hospital would you want to work on and why? And just as a reminder, the floors of the hospital are Artifact Accidents, Creature-Induced Injuries, Magical Bugs, Potion and Plant Poisoning, Spell Damage, and Visitors’ Tearoom/Hospital Shop. Man, that feels on brand.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It feels like everywhere you go, they have to have a shop, and it’s like, is this necessary?

Andrew: “Don’t forget to exit through the gift shop.”

Laura: Yeah, basically. “Sorry for your trauma.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: So Rachel said,

“I would be the handler for all the therapy animals at St. Mungo’s. I’m picturing mini unicorns, Mooncalves, Pygmy Puffs and a mini chimera (like Syrinx from the Crescent City series). Or something involving data and record-keeping, because I’m a nerd.”

Eric: I love the idea of emotional support Mooncalves!

Laura: Yeah, oh my gosh.

Eric: Mooncalves are emotional support creatures.

Andrew: They’re definitely one of the cutest fantastic beasts.

Eric: Those and Diricawls, for sure. So Julianne, on the Lynx Line, says, “I’ll be at the tearoom/shop, as far away from blood as possible.”

Micah: Jennifer says,

“I have worked as a labor and delivery nurse for over 20 years, and I’ve often wondered how witches had their babies? Unless they Apparate the baby out of the mom, they would need a floor at St. Mungo’s for moms and babies. Of course, that is where I would want to work.”

Laura: That’s an interesting question.

Andrew: It would make a sound like thoomp, like in Luigi’s Mansion, right, Micah?

Eric: Yeah, oh…

Laura: [laughs] I was imagining like a, pop.

Micah: Put the vacuum up… never mind.

Laura: Like a popping sound.

Eric: I’m just imagining you cast Episkey and the kid comes out.

Micah: That is interesting there’s no maternity ward listed at St. Mungo’s.

Andrew: I guess that means there’s a whole different building. A whole different hospital.

Eric: Wizards do home birth. There’s a spell for that; makes it really easy.

Laura: Probably.

Andrew: You would think so. We should do a whole episode on that.

Micah:Accio baby.”

Laura: It does feel a little weird for a book series that is so concerned with mothers that there isn’t a maternity ward.

Andrew: [laughs] But how do you become a mother?

Eric: You just do.

Andrew: “Well, when mommy and daddy…” Sorry.

Laura: [laughs] Our next one comes from Leah. Leah says,

“As a current grad student in nutrition (future registered dietitian), I’d have to say I’d be working in the tearoom to provide super healthy, yet delicious treats and meals from whole foods and featuring some fun magical herbs and fungi. Think about pulled mushroom barbecue, colorful pickled veggie slaw, some raw vegan brownies, golden milk lattes… I would brighten up the hospital food for the patients as well as their visitors and my fellow hospital staff. It’s insane; in the Muggle world, I take huge issue with the prevalence of ultra-processed foods in hospitals.”

Andrew: That is really backwards. Good point. Hadn’t thought about that.

Laura: Yeah, very good point, Leah.

Andrew: Rosalie said,

“I’d be working on the ground floor in Artifact Accidents. There are a lot of hazards, even with Muggle artifacts (I work in museum collection care), so I can only imagine the absolute chaos that cursed, exploding, and malfunctioning wizarding artifacts would cause. Yikes!”

Eric: Nicole says,

“The author left out a crucial part of the hospital, which would be the medical records! I would add this to the fifth floor to be as far as possible from any cauldron explosions, since without technology, they would definitely have paper records. This is my job in the Muggle world, so I would want to do something similar in the wizarding world – be healthcare adjacent, without any bodily fluids.”

I love that a lot of a lot of people who responded are choosing their real life job version.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Mev wrote in,

“Potions and Plant Poisoning. I would be good at making potions. I would try to stay in the background, not treating people, but brewing potions so other Healers can help them. I would love to think my potions also could be used to treat magical creatures as well, or that I brew specifically for the magical creatures.”

Laura: Oh, I love that. And last but not least, Zachary says,

“I would love to set up shop in the tearoom as some sort of post-traumatic stress/trauma therapist to help the affected and their families adjust to their new lives and lifestyles. This chapter always makes me wish someone was available to Neville, and I’ve always had an urge to help those who need it. I’d also like to head a department that searches and experiments for cures for the incurable. Using a mixture of Muggle science and wizard magic, I’m sure the job would be very successful and helpful for everyone affected.”

Good call.

Andrew: Thanks to everybody who contributed, and you can read more of the responses at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can email or send a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Next week, we will be discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23 – oh, look at this! Ho, ho, ho! It’s “Christmas on the Closed Ward.” Before we get to Quizzitch, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk. This week on What the Hype?!, Laura and Micah wrapped up their coverage on The White Lotus, and Eric and Laura kicked off coverage for The Last of Us Season 2. Then over on Millennial, we’re crying into our retirement accounts as we talk tariffs, but we’re also talking about some easy ways to make the most out of your budget right now. And we were also looking at how other Millennials are getting by right now, given the current economic situation.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question was what is the nearest prime number to number 700? You guys, it’s a Quizzitch first! The correct answer to this week’s Quizzitch question is the number of this episode!

Andrew: Whoa, that’s actually pretty cool!

Eric: 701 is the nearest prime number to 700, and correct answers… 65% of folks said that they did not look that up. And correct answers were submitted by Blinkey the House-Elf; Elizabeth K.; Fluffernutter; Hey Micah You’re So Fine, You’re So Fine You Blow My Mind; First Time Knowing the Answer; I spent 2 hours and 30 minutes calculating this because I didn’t want to look it up; I have a secret gay crush on Andrew…

Micah: Me too.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … Madeline; Patronus Seeker; Sarah B.; Not bad for a girl that took Remedial Algebra; Scorpio Slytherin; The Minister of Prime; Transfigure me into Micah’s mic… a lot of Micah.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Oooh, okay.

Eric: … Umbridge’s missing Educational Decree banning Portkeys; and Will Professor Vector be proud of me now? Here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: The London entrance to St. Mungo’s features a mannequin that moves and articulates. What is the name given to the ambulatory mannequins in the first episode of the 2005 Doctor Who revival? That episode, by the way, is called “Rose.” Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, on the Quizzitch form located at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on our website checking out our amazing transcripts or our must listens page, just click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening to this week’s episode. Don’t forget to visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to support us, leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, and tell a friend about the show. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Eric and Laura: Bye.

Transcript #700

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #700, Kierra Lewis Returns, and MuggleMail (Are We Too Hard on Draco?)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter for 700 episodes and counting. We are your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books, the movies, and the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show, so make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. Micah, Laura, Eric, congrats! 700 episodes! Wow.

Laura Tee: Yeah, congrats to you!

Eric Scull: We’re so old.

Andrew: A couple of us brought a celebratory drink today. I think Micah has a shot.

Eric: Ooh.

Andrew: I am just going to have a beer today. Hold on; let me crack this open. Let’s see here.

Laura: I have a La Croix. [laughs]

Eric: I have a Kirkland sparkling water.

Andrew: Ah, wonderful. Is there a shot in that? I’m kidding.

Eric: Yeah, I plead the fifth on that.

Andrew: But Eric did bring balloons.

Eric: I got balloons!

Andrew: And you’re wearing a suit as well.

Eric: Oh, of course; I had to dress up. They say, “Congrats,” the balloons do.

Andrew: [laughs] To yourself.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Congrats, guys. Yeah, I bought them for us, really.

Andrew: All right. Well, can you all believe it? 700 episodes. I don’t even know what to say. We never thought it’d last this long.

Eric: Certainly that’s true. What’s the next big milestone? I guess 777.

Andrew: Save the balloons for a year and a half from now.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I was about to say, that’s right around the corner, relatively speaking.

Eric: They’ll be upside down because we’ll have to hang them from the ceiling.

Andrew: But it is amazing we can do 700 episodes podcasting about Harry Potter, and we still have new Harry Potter content to look forward to. Of course, we’re very excited for the Harry Potter TV show. The Wizarding World continues to expand. I still get asked, “What do you all podcast about?” I’m like, “Uh, we’re going Chapter by Chapter through the books. Duh. There’s a lot to talk about. Hello.”

Micah: Do you say it just like that?

Laura: And I also love reminding people that a TV show is coming right around the corner, so if they think we don’t have enough to talk about now – which they’re totally wrong about – they would have to acknowledge that there’s going to be plenty to talk about for about the next decade once the show comes out.

Eric: Oof.

Andrew: And if you listen to one episode of this podcast, you know we have a lot to talk about. [laughs]

Eric: We’re passionate! I’ve got to say, 700 episodes; every one I’ve been a part of has been fun.

Andrew: Eh… I’m kidding.

Laura: Not the one that you lost your audio.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: That was decidedly not… well, which one? The first one was probably pretty good. The second one, I was a little peeved. Yeah, I had to rerecord.

Micah: But what I really love about putting together these episodes is that we get to hear directly from our listeners, so there’s probably no better way to celebrate 700 episodes than by doing a mailbag episode, because we get to hear feedback and get questions, and I think that’s always what has made this show so much fun to do, is answering the questions, theorizing, hearing from listeners, incorporating them into the conversation.

Eric: That’s been in our DNA ever since I think the first voicemail on Episode 2 of the show. We really, really, really… early on, people were Skyping in with their voicemails for us; it was just absolutely amazing to hear. But we were as passionate as they were, and we just loved the new theories.

Andrew: And MuggleNet was always a community-driven place for Harry Potter fans as well; not just the forums, but we had a comments section on every news post. And I was looking back at the original MuggleCast post on MuggleNet.com a couple weeks ago. There was hundreds of comments on the MuggleCast announcement post; I was like, “Wow, people were excited.”

Eric: The first ten of them were “First! First! Second, second, fourth, eighth…”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “Seventh.”

Eric: Remember how they used to do that?

Andrew: Yeah. And we’re excited that we have a guest on today; we’re going to be joined by Kierra Lewis in a few minutes. And I think it’s fitting we’re going to have her on today, because we’ve been in the world of Harry Potter for 20 plus years now; Kierra has only been in the world of Harry Potter for about a year, and yet she has been as moved by the Harry Potter series over the course of the last year, just like we were 20 plus years ago. So I think it just speaks to the timelessness of Harry Potter.

Eric: We had her on about a year ago for Episode 649 for the first time, so pretty cool to check back in with her now that she’s completed her read-through of the series.


Interview with Kierra Lewis


Andrew: Well, actually, why don’t we just jump right into the interview with Kierra today to kick things off?

Eric: Let’s do it.

Andrew: We are now joined by Kierra Lewis! Welcome back to MuggleCast, Kierra.

Kierra Lewis: What’s going on, everybody?

Andrew: It’s great to have you back, and for anybody who doesn’t know – but I hope everyone has, because it’s been an awesome experience – you have been documenting reading the Harry Potter series for the first time on your social media channels, and you just finished a few weeks ago?

Kierra: Finally! Yeah, it was a journey, for sure.

Andrew: [laughs] It was fascinating.

Eric: Here, I got you some balloons!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, first of all, I have to say I think I speak for all of us, and then everybody watching: Every time I saw one of your videos come up, I was so excited to see what you were going through. I know it was painful, but it was a joy for us to watch.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Kierra: Emotions all over, for sure.

Andrew: Yeah. Do you feel relieved to have finished? And what feelings are you experiencing?

Kierra: Well, I finally started processing my emotions a couple days ago, because right after I finished the book, I had to catch a plane to go to the Wizarding World in Universal. So I was wanting to cry, but I was like, “No, I know cousin Harry would want me to be joyful there.” But the emotions finishing the book… honestly, I’m not even relieved. I kind of just want to jump back into the story.

Eric: Aww.

[Andrew laughs]

Kierra: If anything, it’s depressing me. Being in the story, but now I’ve got to face the real world, so I’m missing the Harry Potter world for sure.

Eric: You can always do a reread. That’s what we’ve learned in our many years.

Kierra: I’m saving it for the TV series.

Eric: Fair enough.

Kierra: I want to reread it right beforehand so my memory will be fresh.

Eric: That sounds good. Now, this is an easy question, but at the same time, we have to ask it: What’s your favorite book from the Harry Potter series?

Kierra: Oh, I was just thinking about this earlier today. So it’s kind of a tie between Half-Blood Prince and Goblet of Fire, just because… I know, some people it’s not their favorite. But Goblet of Fire, I like it just because I got to see them be kids, the Triwizard cup… and then Half-Blood Prince, even from the first chapter, I feel like the author just had me so engulfed in the story, finding out about the Ministry of Magic, all the backstory of Baldy Voldy, and yeah, those are my top books.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: No, those are great answers. There’s no wrong answers, by the way, when we ask that, too, so it’s always very satisfying.

Kierra: Okay. The only wrong answer is Chamber of Secrets. That book is…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Why does everyone dislike that book? Oh my God.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Kierra: It never does it for me. I’m not even… yeah, it’s still good, but that’s my least, least, least favorite.

Andrew: Okay, that’s fair. I mean, everybody’s got to have a least favorite, right?

Eric: I guess that’s true.

Andrew: So if that’s yours, fine.

Micah: Well, you mentioned Half-Blood Prince being one of your favorites, so I’m curious, how has your perspective on certain characters like Snape or maybe Dumbledore changed throughout the course of the series? I know there’s been a lot of emotion along the way.

Kierra: Yeah, I would say for Dumbledore… I’m still pro-Dumbledore, but in the beginning, I did see him… I feel like there’s certain people in your life, whether it be your parents or your grandparents, where you just see them as just this god-given just “I can’t do any wrong” type of person, but in then hearing about his backstory, it did break my heart a little bit. But I am understanding, in a sense of “Your past is one thing,” but how he died, he died, I feel like, for the greater good for everybody else. He had Harry’s intentions in mind with everything. So yeah, I don’t resent him. I just, if anything, see him more as a human. We’re eye to eye now. And then Snape, oh my God, it was a roller coaster with Snape. One minute I hate him; the next chapter, I love him again. I would say he’s one of those as well, where you think you hate him, but you find out his reasons for everything, and you just… at least, I can’t help but to be compassionate and loving towards him for sure, which I know is an unpopular opinion. A lot of people hate my boy Snape; that’s okay.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s a fair approach to take. There’s a lot of nuance in this series, right? And so it does force you to hold multiple truths and be able to accept them. But with some of the tougher moments of the series in mind, there were some moments when you were reading where you were ready to stop the Harry Potter series altogether, so I’m wondering, did the series ultimately give you what you wanted, and are you glad that you actually stuck it out and finished?

Kierra: Oh, it gave me way more than I wanted and expected.

Laura: Yay!

Kierra: Way more. Like I said, I thought it was just going to be a lighthearted series, and I mean, whether it reflected me and my life stories with my family, or just the current world that we’re in right now, I just feel like it was just… honestly, the story is just so powerful, and it’s very timeless. And then your second question… oh, I’m so glad I didn’t stop, 100%. I think people had to remind me that this was a story and the last book was about war, so there was going to be a lot of devastation, of death, and of course, it hurt me. I had to take days off from it. But getting to the end, it was so worth it, just seeing my cousin come out on top.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Heck yeah.

Kierra: It made it all worth it for sure.

Eric: Aw.

Micah: You mentioned earlier that you were at the theme park recently. I’m curious, what was that experience like for you coming off of just having finished the books? And I’ll ask a followup question: I saw you rode Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure, and I thought you had a great line, now you know why Harry doesn’t like riding with Hagrid.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Did you ride in the motorbike or the sidecar?

Kierra: So I rode in the motorbike, so I was Hagrid.

Micah: Me too, me too, okay.

Kierra: And I know there’s a different experience for both, but one was enough for me. I’m not a big roller coaster fan.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Me too, 100%.

Kierra: I was like, “If Hagrid was driving, no wonder cousin Harry was not a fan of it.” But it was amazing. Honestly, I feel like they got… I don’t know if they replicated the studios or whatever, but I feel like they just got the entire wizarding world and just plopped it in Universal Studios, from the butterbeer to whether I was riding the rides or going into the wand stores. Ollivander, his shopping store… the whole experience was amazing, so yeah, I loved it.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, now that you’ve finished the books and you’ve experienced the theme park, what else are you most excited for in the wizarding world? Are you going to explore the other books, like the Fantastic Beasts or the TV show? What are you most looking forward to?

Kierra: Oh, I mean, there’s… so I’m excited for tomorrow; I’m going to see Cursed Child play.

Andrew: [gasps] Oooh.

Kierra: And I’m meeting the cast, so that’s exciting.

Laura: Oh, that’s awesome!

Micah: Nice.

Kierra: I know; I feel like… and I hadn’t read the script.

Andrew: The script book, yeah.

Andrew: So I’m going in blind, so I just really…

Kierra: Perfect.

Kierra: Yeah, that’s what everyone tells me, so I’m excited for that.

[Micah laughs]

Kierra: I still need to watch the last three movies, so I want to do that. And possibly… I’ve debated; I need to see more about Fantastic Beasts, but I know people would love to see that from me too. Yeah, that, and hopefully go to the London studios, maybe this fall for my birthday.

Andrew: Okay, cool. Well, you mentioned rereading possibly before the TV show starts airing. Is there any scene or one book in particular you’re looking forward to being adapted for the TV show?

Kierra: Ohh, okay. Let me think about that. I know for sure we’ve got to have my boy Peeves. I want to see Peeves, and I want to see SPEW. We need to… Hermione needs to have her group there.

Andrew and Laura: Yes.

Kierra: So those two. But as far as books to shows, probably… because I haven’t seen Half-Blood, so I can’t say that. I would honestly say probably Goblet, because that was my favorite book, but when I watched the movie… not that it was bad, but I was kind of let down, because I feel like so many scenes were missing from it, which… understandably; it was a movie, and they couldn’t put all the scenes in there.

Andrew: But that is the beauty of the TV show; they’ll be able to fit everything. They’re really not going to have an excuse. [laughs]

Eric: There’s no excuse!

Kierra: I’m pro-TV show. I know some people are like, “We got the movies, we got the movies,” but now they got more time to get the details of the things they weren’t able to get in the movies. So I’m pro-TV series.

Andrew: We wholeheartedly agree with you here.

Laura: Yeah, give us the Winky subplot.

Kierra: Yeah, oh my God!

Laura: I missed that so much in the movie.

Eric: So Kierra, have you dabbled in any fanfiction that people have written?

Kierra: [laughs] Not yet. I’m trying to process Harry Potter, but I do have a couple of… like “All the Young Dudes.”

Eric: Yeah, yeah!

Kierra: Okay, so I’ve heard good things about that. People want me to get into that.

Eric: Oh, yeah, that one’s good. Depending on what era you want to read about, what characters, there’s so much that’s been… over the years has been very good.

Kierra: That’s what I’ve heard. So that, and Dramione, but I don’t know. I’m so pro-Ron and Hermione; I don’t know if I can handle anything that’s not them right now.

Eric: Well, give yourself the time and the space to kind of separate it all out in your head and then dive in for fun, for sure, would be my recommendation.

Kierra: Hello.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Laura, do you have any recommendations? Laura used to run or help run the fanfiction section of MuggleNet.com way back in the day.

Laura: Yeah, a million years ago, it feels like. But honestly, “All the Young Dudes” is probably the first one that I would recommend to you, and it sounds like you already got that one on lock. It is so, so good. There is a really popular Dramione fanfiction called “Manacled,” but I will say that one is very dark, and I don’t know. I don’t know if it really… if you’re looking for a romance story, I don’t think that’s the story, but it is very well written. It’s just kind of tough to read.

Eric: Then there are ones that you can read just for fun, like “My Immortal” as well.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Which is early…

Kierra: What is “My Immortal”?

Eric: “My Immortal,” early classic. If it evokes the song from Evanescence, it’s just like that. It stars Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Way, a transfer student from the US who’s into Snape and the Dark Lord.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And it’s written like an early 2000s Tumblr post went crazy.

Kierra: Oh, I love this! Wait, what’s it called?

Eric: “My Immortal.”

Kierra: Okay, I’m going to have to check that one out. Anything with Snape, I’m a fan of. Hello.

Andrew: Well, and any two characters that you’ve imagined pairing, somebody else has definitely come up with a fanfiction for. I think one that Laura cites quite a bit… Laura, you’ve jokingly referenced the very real McGonagall/Giant Squid fanfictions? Do I have that right?

Kierra: Oh, y’all getting creative now.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, somebody submitted one of those, and it was too graphic to go on MuggleNet fanfiction…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … so it was rejected because that was a family website. But yeah, people….

Kierra: BookTok would eat something like that up, because they love…

Laura: Totally.

[Kierra and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: We know that you read with so much passion; you react with so much passion. Were there any noise complaints as you were reading through the Harry Potter series?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: And if so, how many?

Kierra: I hate to be a disappointment, but I’ve gotten zero.

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: That’s great.

Kierra: Now, I don’t know if it’s because either my neighbors could be working, because most of the time I read during the day…

Eric: Oooh.

Kierra: … or I like to think that just our walls are thick too.

[Eric laughs]

Kierra: Which is a saving grace, because yeah, without that, I think I probably would have gotten a hundred or so, or I would have been living someplace else.

Micah: Or they could just be supportive.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Kierra: I will say, when I lived in Nashville, while I was reading the Harry Potter series, my neighbors… I didn’t tell them that I did BookTok, but one day they just saw me out, and I guess I just popped up on her “For you” page, so she found out I was doing book-related videos, and she said that she could hear me, but she would just laugh about it. So I did have a situation where she was cool with it and understood, but yeah, in this case we’re good so far, but knock on wood.

Eric: Man, that’s it. Everyone on your block just supported you the whole way through.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I’m sure you saw this, Kierra, but there was a great TikTok of somebody pretending to be your neighbor listening.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It was just your audio in the TikTok. It was so funny. Well, Kierra, those are our questions for you. Thank you so much for coming on. Congrats again on finishing the series and all your success, and we can’t wait to see what you read next. I’m sure everybody’s so excited to continue following your reading journey.

Kierra: Hello. Well, thank y’all for having me! Y’all are my cousins from miles and miles away.

Andrew: Aww, we love you too. What are you reading now? Or what’s next?

Kierra: So next is Hunger Games. I am taking a break; I was going to start it this week, but think I just need to get my mind clear before I go into this emotional journey. But yeah, haven’t seen the movies; haven’t read the books, along with staying with Harry Potter, so I’m excited for it. And I hear the newest book is good.

Eric: We loved it.

Andrew: It is, yeah. A few of us have finished it already, and yeah, we love it.

Kierra: Did y’all cry?

Andrew: I was getting emotional.

Kierra: Okay.

Andrew: I didn’t cry, but I was getting emotional, yeah. Well, listeners, Kierra is @KierraLewis75 on TikTok, and then on Instagram, @Kierra_Lewis1. Anything else you want to plug?

Kierra: I think it’s just those two, Instagram and TikTok, yeah.

Andrew: Awesome. Well, thank you again, Kierra, so much for joining us.

Kierra: Thank y’all for having me.

Andrew: All right, that was a lot of fun having Kierra on the podcast. Listeners, make sure you check her out on social media; we’ll have links to all of her channels in the show notes. Also, a special announcement: Since this is Episode 700, we are excited to announce the remaining inventory of our MuggleCast “19 Years Later” T-shirts – which I am wearing today – are now available in the overstock store. All sizes are currently available. If you’re a patron in the US, you also have access to free shipping; we dropped a promo code to access that free shipping in the Patreon chat, so make sure you check that out. These T-shirts are only available while supplies last, and this is a great way to celebrate this milestone episode of MuggleCast. Also, we would really appreciate your support on Patreon. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can pledge, and you’ll get instant access to dozens – actually, over 100 – bonus MuggleCast episodes. You’ll also get access to ad-free episodes, a new physical gift every year, the chance to cohost the show one day, and a lot more, so please check that out as well. Support on Patreon is the only reason why we have reached 20 years and 700 episodes, so special thank you to our patrons today for getting us to this milestone.

Eric: Absolutely.


Game: Who Said It?


Andrew: Well, we have more fun today. Micah, you put together a game for us, right?

Micah: Yeah, I figured it would be a lot of fun to reflect back on some prior episodes of MuggleCast, and what better way to do that than to see if we can all recall who said it, right?

Eric: Ahh.

Micah: There’s been some iconic moments in MuggleCast history. Some of them may be included here; some of them may not. But are you up for playing a little bit of a game?

Andrew: I’m scared, but yeah.

Micah: So I’m going to put a softball out there to start. This one I feel like most people should be able to get, okay?

Andrew and Laura: Okay.

Micah: “I got the deal you need, Andy. Check this out: Transfer your domain to GoDaddy for as little as $6.99, and get a free one-year extension, plus guaranteed renewal pricing.”

Andrew: [laughs] That’s our old ad guy, Mason. Is that who that is?

Micah: Laura? Eric? You agree?

Eric: I concur with Andrew.

Laura: Yep. Lock it in.

Micah: All right. Yes, that was indeed Mason.

Eric: Oh, man.

Laura: Final answer.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay. I wasn’t expecting him to be a question today.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Hey, but that’s a really good test question, right?

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: All right, you ready for the next one?

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: “The audio quality was bad. The content was bad. It was poorly planned. But hey, you live, you learn.”

Andrew: I’m going to say me.

Laura: That sounds like Andrew.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I think the hint is “You live, you learn,” because that’s not a saying I would utter, but yeah, I’d go with Andrew.

Micah: Final answers?

Eric: I mean, he said sounds like him, so I’m going to guess that.

Andrew: Right. [laughs]

Micah: You are all incorrect.

[Andrew and Laura gasp]

Micah: This was said by Ben on Episode 50 of MuggleCast.

Andrew and Eric: Oooh.

Laura: Snap.

Eric: 50!

Micah: He was referring to the first episode ever recorded.

Eric: I love how…

Laura: Okay, well, that’s a little harsh. Teenagers, you know?

Eric: Yeah, well, each milestone that grants us the opportunity for reflection is a gift, so I like that even on Episode 50, we were like, “We’ve improved so much since then.” Because if we stuck to that, by 700 we’d be pretty good.

Micah: The next one: “When Dumbledore’s eyes twinkle brightly behind his spectacles, you had better be glad he’s wearing his glasses, otherwise the brightness of that twinkle would burn a hole right through you.”

Laura: Is that Jamie?

Andrew: I think that’s Eric.

Eric: Maybe Jamie?

Micah: Got one Eric? Two Jamies and one Eric. The correct answer is Jamie. These were Dumbledore Norris facts. Do you remember these?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Some of them were ripped straight from the early Internet’s repository of Chris Norris facts with slight changes, like, “Underneath Dumbledore’s massive beard is not a chin, it’s another fist.”

Laura: Fist, yeah, exactly.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: This was a very popular segment early on in MuggleCast history.

Eric: Oh, I love that, Micah. Thank you for that.

Micah: This was from Episode 55. Our next quote, I will preface it by saying, Laura, you said to this person, “I was actually hired to work on MuggleNet on Halloween, so this Halloween is going to be my two-year anniversary,” to which this person said, “That was a sad day in MuggleNet history.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: That was Ben.

Eric: I’d say nobody heckled Laura like Ben heckled Laura.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I agree with that.

Micah: You are all incorrect. That was Kevin.

Laura: What?!

Eric: Whoa, it was Kevin!

Laura: Yeah, well, okay. Well, that’s different. He just liked to needle everybody. That’s fine; he didn’t mean it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You got some rare Kevin needling. That was very satisfying.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That was Episode 70 of MuggleCast, so I had to go back a little bit. I wanted to go as far away… I didn’t want anything too recent for this game show. Next up: “Why would you create a theme park? The countless hundreds of millions of dollars spent on a theme park for a character who’s going to die?”

Andrew: [laughs] What?

Laura: Oh, gosh. I don’t…

Micah: I think the thought was we were still theorizing at this time about what was going to happen, and this comment was, “Why would you create a theme park for a character that’s going to die?”

Eric: This is hilarious.

Laura: I actually feel really stumped by this one.

Andrew: Jamie.

Eric: Was it Ben?

Micah: Laura?

Laura: Was it Micah? Micah, was it you?

Micah: It was me.

Andrew and Eric: Ohhh!

Laura: Damn!

Andrew: I was just thinking, we need a Micah answer. [laughs]

Eric: It was funny then, and it’s funny now, man.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That is a good… I do remember kind of thinking at the time, “It’s going to be sad going through the theme park if Harry is no longer alive, or Ron or Hermione,” but eh, we learned to live to enjoy the park while Dumbledore is dead.

Micah: That was Episode 95.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: “We should have a new segment called homework or something where we assign the listeners homework to go and find the things that we talked about 50 episodes ago and remind us so that we know.”

Laura: Eric.

Eric: [laughs] I quote about being forgetful; it goes straight to me. You know what? I’ll probably agree with that. Was it me?

Andrew: I’ll guess myself.

Micah: The correct answer is Laura.

Laura: Oh, damn it.

Micah: Episode 150.

Laura: So I’m the asshole. Okay.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: We’re like, 0 for 8 on these. I love it.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I love that they’re funny and challenging at the same time to go back. But it’s worth shouting out, we’ve had several listeners throughout the years bring us their findings from… they’ll listen and they’ll be like, “I thought it would be fun, you guys, to compile all the predictions you ever made,” or we’ve asked our listeners in the past to help us tally who was on each episode, which we’ve touted those stats on previous hundred episodes. We don’t have them for today. But our listeners have been a very invaluable resource. We love and have always been very touched that they engage with the show, but then also have allowed us to continue celebrating the show throughout the years.

Micah: Well, hopefully you enjoy this next one. “Let’s move on to Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re talking about the penultimate chapter. You guys like that word? ‘Penultimate’?”

Andrew: That has to be me.

Laura: Really?

Andrew: I love the word penultimate. [laughs]

Laura: Do you? Okay, because also I’m thinking this could be Eric, maybe?

Eric: I feel like either I read it in a transcript recently, or I remember vaguely 20-ish, 18-ish years ago geeking out about “penultimate.” I’m going to say it’s me, but I think – correct me if I’m wrong, Micah – no matter who said it, that might be the title of that episode.

Micah: “Penultimate.” I don’t know offhand, but we can check, because it was on Episode 151. And it was Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, dang.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: I suck at this game.

Eric: We each take turns, really… no, Episode 151’s title is “Google, Define: Goat.”

Andrew: [laughs] I do think you’re right, though, Eric; I vaguely remember an episode being titled “Penultimate.”

Micah: Probably.

Laura: I remember that too.

Micah: Well, Eric very much likes the word “titular.” That comes up quite a bit.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “Titular.” I also… one of the first things we sourced our listeners on – it was maybe Episode 6 or so – I said, “You hear about primary and secondary a lot, but what comes after primary and secondary?” And they wrote in and they were like, “It’s tertiary.” That was the first word I learned since starting MuggleCast.

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Micah: All right, a couple more here before we wrap up this game. Next one: “I was in the right place at the right time because I just moved back to London. If I moved back six months later, someone else might have gotten it.”

Andrew: Well, this is Jamie, you would think. [laughs]

Laura: I mean, process of elimination here…

Andrew: Who moved to…? Wait, Elysa? Wasn’t…? I mean, she was in Oxford.

Laura: Yeah, but the quote says, “I moved back to London.”

Andrew: Did Jamie ever live in London?

Laura: I thought so.

Eric: But it’s about “wouldn’t have gotten it,” so I wonder if it’s a role that was… like, this is somebody we interviewed.

Andrew: Ohhh! Evanna Lynch. Is this Evanna Lynch? [laughs]

Eric: Could be. I’m going to guess Evanna.

Micah: Laura?

Laura: I’ll go with Evanna.

Micah: Unfortunately, you are all wrong. This is David Heyman.

Andrew: Ohh! All right.

Micah: Can you imagine if he never got it?

Eric: No, I could not. The “What if?” on that is too depressing to contemplate.

Andrew: That is a good trick question, though, because we gravitated towards the hosts.

Micah: And that was Episode 200 of MuggleCast, “Accept Defeat.”

Eric: “Admit Defeat.”

Micah: “Admit Defeat,” yes. I was going to use that one, but Eric, I figured that was too easy for you to guess.

Eric: Yeah, we know that one.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: For folks who don’t know, David Heyman played the Dueling Club with us back on episode 200 of MuggleCast.

Eric: He got pretty excited. Yeah, he got pretty into it.

Micah: All right, last one, and I figured that this is an appropriate way to wrap up this game: “I think Harry is a lover, not a fighter.”

Laura: Okay, this has to be Eric.

Eric: I don’t think there’s been one for me, which is nice. You really kept the word count down.

Andrew: Oh, okay. [laughs] “Kept the word count down.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah, if I just ran on for five minutes, we would know.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No, no, I’m glad none of my quotes are here; they would have been too long.

Andrew: Oh, stop, stop.

Eric: Especially back then. I had no filter. I’m going to guess me only because I haven’t been, but I think it might sound more like something Ben might say.

Andrew: Eh, I’ll go with Eric too.

Micah: Laura?

Laura: Oh, Eric, for sure.

Micah: You are all right, so the perfect way to end this fun segment. And thanks to Meg and all the transcribers over the years, because without them, I would not have been able to go back and cull all these segments.

Andrew: Including you, Micah!

Micah: Yeah, way back in the day.

Eric: Yeah, you were the first transcriber for MuggleCast.

Micah: I was.

Eric: What episode was that last quote from?

Micah: 19.

Eric: Yeah, that was a great segment. I think that solidifies it, that we don’t know what the heck we said, or who said what.

Micah: Oh, how is that even…? Yeah, it’s impossible for us to remember everything that we’ve said over the years.

Eric: [laughs] But we had fun doing it, I think.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: Well, it’s time for the mailbag portion of today’s episode. First of all, Micah, 700 episodes. We said we were each having a drink today; we should tell our audience what we’re actually drinking. What’s the shot you’ve been sipping on?

Micah: A little bit of Bourbon.

Andrew: Oooh, fancy. I’m drinking a lager, but it’s not a basic lager; it’s one in partnership with Patagonia, the hiking gear company.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: It’s called a Kernzer lager. “Bright, crisp, and wildly drinkable.” So yeah, that’s what we’re having, for anybody wondering.

Eric: Love that. And as said before, I have the Kirkland lime sparkling water.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Beautiful.

Andrew: I do love those.

Eric: These are great.

Andrew: That’s what I’m normally drinking while recording MuggleCast.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Well, to kick off the mailbag portion of today’s episode, we have a voicemail from one of our listeners.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey MuggleCast, this is Karen, and I am a Hufflepuff. And I have read the series many times, but on this reread, I found myself thinking about the individualistic nature of the ways that Harry and Hermione tried to resist Umbridge early in Order of the Phoenix, with Harry and Hermione both doing some version of just speaking up alone and then getting punished. And on this reread, I was wondering what impact more collective actions like some of those I’ve taken as an active member of my graduate student union might have had on Umbridge, on Hogwarts, or maybe even the Ministry. So for example, what would have happened if Hogwarts students had written an op-ed in the Daily Prophet or another media outlet about how they weren’t learning anything useful? Would the public have rallied behind them? Or how would the Ministry have responded if students had their parents sign and/or circulate a petition? What if students went on strike from the DADA lessons until they learned something practical? I would imagine, or at least hope, that Umbridge doesn’t have dozens of blood torture quills, so it would have put pressure on her in a different way, because she couldn’t give detention to everybody all at the same time. I’m also thinking that these kind of actions might have been somewhat familiar to Hogwarts students, given that industry-wide strikes are far more common in Europe than they are in the US. Anyway, thanks for listening, and I would love to hear if y’all have other ideas about what kinds of collective actions the students could have taken in response to Umbridge’s educational malpractice and physical abuse. Thanks for all you do.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Great question. I do think the Ministry would have tried to spin what the students were saying somehow. They wouldn’t just put their hands up and be like, “You got us!”

Eric: Yeah, it’s questionable if the Daily Prophet would have published that op-ed.

Andrew: That too, yeah. Could be published elsewhere, though. Quibbler?

Eric: Quibbler would have been an option, yep, absolutely, which Harry ends up using. I like all of these suggestions, and I’m wondering if… really, sitting out of the DADA lessons, she can try and pass an Educational Decree that’s going to punish students for not showing up, but is she really going to put everyone in detention? Just like Karen said. So I really love these ideas. I don’t know that I have any to add.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But the time to act is always sooner than later, before Umbridge got complete and full control of the school by passing all the degrees she needed to to get control of the teachers and all of that. The real time for all the students to oppose her was… part of the reason it’s so insidious what she did is it’s a slow, gradual move to totalitarianism, and they weren’t ready to resist or fight back. Very few people even agreed that she was there for any untoward reasons, because so few people agreed Voldemort was back! So it was a whole thing.

Andrew: All right, well, let’s move on to some emails now.

Micah: First one comes from TJ, talking about us being too hard on Draco.

Andrew: What?!

Micah: [laughs] TJ said,

“Hey MuggleCast! Never thought I would say this, but I think you’re being a little too hard on Draco during the Order of the Phoenix reread. Maybe it’s because I’ve been listening to your Half-Blood Prince Chapter by Chapter recently, but Year 5 is really the last ‘good’ year Draco will have in the series! After this, he’s forced to kill Dumbledore and is terrorized by the Dark Lord in his own home. Cut Draco some slack and appreciate the fun times this 15-year-old boy has with his friends this year, as those are the last laughs he’ll have in a while.”

Andrew: [laughs] Well, but he doesn’t know that this is his last good year, so…

Eric: And the kind of laughs Draco has are by bringing misery to others. I actually… I don’t want to be controversial; I would say we are not going too hard on Draco. I would say that his privilege has brought him to a place where he does not have to live with any of the consequences of his actions, and that some of the events of the later books, while harrowing for him, do him some good, and his character some good.

Micah: TJ goes on to say,

“On a slightly related note, I can’t wait for you to get to the Deathly Hallows Chapter by Chapter! I’ve gone all the way back to Episode 121 to start the only Deathly Hallows Chapter by Chapter you guys have done, and oh boy, did I forget how different things were. From hearing Andrew and Matt learn about what Twilight is from Laura (and me having flashbacks to listening to Imprint), to Andrew reading a Facebook message he got from a listener offering him ‘wacky tobaccy’…”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

“… and yelling about only having two cohosts on because Laura was studying for finals and Eric was in New Zealand… but at least Micah was excited to say his name second when you all introduce yourselves because of it. I love how unhinged it all was and kinda wish we had some more unhinged MuggleCast energy back in our lives. Keep up the amazing work!”

Andrew: TJ, how can we create an unhinged MuggleCast today? We are open to suggestions. We can get Micah a second shot right now.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I can maybe pound this beer instead of politely sipping it. If anybody wants to offer me more wacky tobaccy, I’m open to that.

Eric: [laughs] It was just that energy that came straight off of living in one of the most magnificent times for who we were, for what our passion was. Laura, you agree?

Laura: Yeah, totally. It was just this really odd time where we caught on to something that really blew up to be a lot bigger than I, at least, imagined it could be at the time. And when you’re that young, having something get that big, and having that big of a responsibility is exciting, but also kind of terrifying, and there were definitely times where it did kind of feel like we were all flying by the seats of our pants, but that was what made it fun at the same time, too. So yeah, it was fun. Those were the scrappy days of MuggleCast. I miss it too.

Andrew: And the scrappy days of podcasting in general. We’ve improved, not just in sound quality, but we try to put together a more organized show for different reasons, including giving a broader audience a certain thing to expect every week. But that said, we never refuse having some fun. We’re always doing something a little goofy on the show. But yeah, we’ll keep that in mind, the unhinged energy, TJ.

Micah: I’m unhinged most weeks; Andrew just edits it out.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s for your own good.

Andrew: Tune into the livestreams.

Eric: Yeah, we don’t want to get canceled.

Andrew: And I will say, the bonus MuggleCast episodes that we record, too… we still need to do more of this, but we could dig deeper into our history to get a little… to bring up some of those wilder memories, which I know people like as well. But yeah, thanks for the feedback, TJ, and for sticking with us. I didn’t realize Laura introduced Matt and I to Twilight. That’s cool.

Laura: I didn’t realize that either, but it kind of makes sense, because I started reading it because my college roommate was reading it, and I saw the cover with the hands holding the apple, and I was like, “Oh, that’s very pretty,” and then I burned through it. And Elysa had read it, too, so we were talking about it, and I think that was when we were all thinking about, “What’s the next book podcast we all want to do together?” So I think that’s how it worked out.

Eric: That makes sense.

Andrew: All right, next email is from Joan on Hermione being in Ravenclaw.

“Hey y’all, I’m listening to Episode 697 and Micah posed the question of why the Sorting Hat ultimately put Hermione in Gryffindor over Ravenclaw. I think Hermione answers this question herself in Book 1: (paraphrasing) ‘Books and cleverness… there are more important things, like friendship and bravery.’ Hermione herself values Gryffindor traits over Ravenclaw, and that is why she was Sorted there. She may have traits that Ravenclaws value, but the traits that SHE herself values pull the most weight during Sorting.”

Great point, Joan. I love that.

Micah: Yeah, I think that goes to what Eric and Laura both talked about in that episode of it looks at your values, right? And Hermione’s values more align with Gryffindor than with Ravenclaw, at least at that particular moment.

Laura: All right, our next Muggle Mail comes from Myda, who’s writing in on the Weasley clock and Molly’s overprotective nature. Also, disclaimer: If I pronounce your name incorrectly, please let me know, because I hate butchering people’s names. So Myda says,

“This is Myda, your fellow Ravenclaw from Lahore, Pakistan. So I have a two-part discussion I wanted your opinions on. Firstly, while listening to recent episodes from Order of the Phoenix and how Molly is overprotective of her family and wants to keep her kids at Hogwarts safe, this reminded me of the Weasley clock and how it tells when someone is in mortal peril. This got me thinking about how every time the trio is on their adventures and Ron thinks he’s probably going to die, and the clock says ‘Mortal peril,’ what does Molly do in this situation? Does she contact Dumbledore at that time and tell him about how Ron is in danger because the clock says so, and is that how Dumbledore knows what’s going on with the trio and when they are on their adventures? Is the clock basically his source for the timing of the adventure? Because he probably knows what the adventure is, considering he usually makes Hogwarts a security nightmare. Also, how does the clock know when someone is in mortal peril? Is it attuned to heartbeats or vitals (like how Star Labs know when Barry is in danger because they can monitor his vitals through the suit)? Is that also how it knows when someone is dead and their handle falls off from the clock?”

Laura: I totally forgot that happens when someone dies. She goes on to say,

“Secondly, I was listening to some of the older episodes, and it occurred to me… how does the curse on the Defense Against the Dark Arts position work? Why did the curse on the Defense Against the Dark Arts consider Moody’s one year completed when he wasn’t even teaching? Does the clock for the year start when they sign the contract, and when real Moody signed it, that’s when the curse started? Or does it work on the magical signature of the person? Because in that case, Moody’s one year never even started, as Fakey was the one teaching. Would love to hear your thoughts.”

Andrew: So first of all, you would think Molly is panicking when she sees that clock switch to “Mortal peril,” given how we see her react in other scenarios. So I don’t know; maybe, yeah, Dumbledore is just like, [imitating Dumbledore] “Oh, no worries. No, it’s totally cool. We have the safest school on the planet. It’s all good.”

Eric: I wonder why they would even put the “Mortal peril” thing on the clock. I mean, would you really want to know? Would you really want to see that?

Andrew: Yeah. It’s like Find My Friends; if you start watching somebody too closely on there, you start getting paranoid. “Oh, why are they here? Why are they on the highway but not moving?”

Eric: That has never happened to me.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: You don’t stalk your friends on Find My Friends too?

Eric: Uh, Snap Map.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, yeah, that’s… I would advise not sharing your location on Snap Map, personally.

Eric: Don’t do it. It’s pretty weird.

Micah: Wasn’t there a point in the series, though, when Molly says that they’ve been stuck at “Mortal peril” for weeks, months…?

Eric: That’s right.

Micah: I forget the exact moment that that happens or what book, but I do like this idea. Molly would be monitoring the clock, would likely be in correspondence with Dumbledore, but I’m not sure he really cares all that much, to be honest with you.

Andrew: [laughs] [imitating Dumbledore] “Leave me alone.”

Eric: Yeah, I like the clock. I’m less sure about how it works. What I would say, though, as far as the Moody and the DADA curse part of the question: I’ve always viewed it as the curse that’s on the DADA position is not something where Voldemort lifted his wand and said an incantation. That’s not what’s going on there. That is something where an incredibly powerful magical being in Voldemort has a subconscious will to prevent someone from occupying a position that he covets, and so through whatever means, our will has the way to affect random chance. It’s Felix Felicis level random chance that it’s tapping into; that’s the kind of magic that Voldemort is working, by not… essentially, it’s not like he uttered a spell. It’s not that Voldemort would even be conscious of it, but the universe is bending around Voldemort’s will because he’s a powerful magic person, so that’s kind of always been my guess. And then regarding Moody, I don’t think we know that Alastor Moody wanted to ever teach DADA, especially after the year that he had in the trunk at Hogwarts. It’s not like he couldn’t come back and actually teach; I don’t think there’s a magical barrier preventing him, but right around that time the stuff in the books is heating up and Moody has an Order to be a part of, and so he wouldn’t teach at Hogwarts, even though he’s back on retirement, because he’s essentially un-retired.

Laura: I also feel like that could be kind of traumatizing for the students. Even though intellectually they know this is the real Mad-Eye Moody, they just spent the entire previous year with an imposter, and that would make me uneasy, especially after some of the lessons that imposter did, like teaching them Unforgivable Curses.

Micah: Yeah. I always thought, though, that what happened to Moody was part of the curse, right? So normally we see the professor, for the most part, be able to fulfill their term, but in this case, the curse affected Moody in a different way and impacted him before he started term. So it was, in a way, preventing him from coming back for another year, because his situation was that somebody took over and impersonated him.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And I think we can take a more bird’s eye view look at the curse and say the rules of the curse are: There will be a name teaching at Hogwarts this year. That same name will not be teaching the following year. Something like that. I don’t think it really has to do…

Eric: Yeah, tragedy will befall all who occupy this role.

Andrew: Yeah, next year you will have a new professor, come hell or high water.

Eric: Man, honestly, Remus Lupin got away easy comparatively. Compared to Gilderoy Lockhart, who will never be the same again. Here is an email from Jerri about Umbridge almost catching Sirius in the fireplace:

“When the Chapter by Chapter discussion went over just what control Umbridge might have had over Sirius when she (almost) caught him talking to the trio in the fireplace, I was reminded of an earlier strange use of Floo Powder that I don’t recall ever getting much discussion on how it could impact situations like this one. Back in the third book, when Snape questions Harry after Draco had seen his head in Hogsmeade, and Snape finds the Marauder’s Map, and while trying to figure it out gets insulted by Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, he wants to discuss things with Lupin. To do this, he throws Floo Powder (although unnamed in this chapter, it is described like it was earlier in Chamber when Harry uses it to travel to Diagon Alley) into the fireplace in his office and calls out Lupin’s name. Then, Lupin suddenly appears out of the fireplace! This is never explained in the books, nor do I remember ever encountering an explanation on Pottermore or other of the author’s writings. Does it only work if both people/fireplaces are inside Hogwarts? Or… could Umbridge use this to call any suspected teacher or even student to her office if they happen to be near a fireplace? If she had realized that it was Sirius, could she have called his name and forced him to appear in her fireplace? I admit that I think this is a sort of plot hole. Book 2 saw the introduction of Floo Powder and I think she was playing with it without considering the implications for future books, but it certainly could have come in useful (or harmfully) at times in Order of the Phoenix, and later books.”

Eric: Wow, Jerri, because I don’t remember ever talking about that brief moment with Snape and Lupin.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a cool call-out, and that would certainly help explain. And at the same time, I agree that Rowling was probably still working through the rules of Floo Powder and how that would all work. But I like that idea, how Umbridge was able to track down Sirius.

Eric: I also think it is a case of Hogwarts being an inside line. If you’re in your local school network… because back in the early ’90s – not to date myself – in our classrooms, in our first, second, third grade classrooms, there were actually little intercoms in every classroom that the office could communicate to the teacher, and you would just hear a voice. Maybe it would beep first, but you would just hear a voice come over, and then… it was basically like the kind of stuff you have at your apartment door now, kind of a com system, and it’s just like that where you wouldn’t even need to dial out. So I think anyone within Hogwarts would be on the same small Floo Network, and be able to travel inter-fireplace-ly. But you can’t imagine how exhausting it was before Floo Powder was invented.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I was thinking about that, too, this entire time. Early inspiration for the Hogwarts Floo Network.

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: Our next email comes from Ben. More about Flooing; wants to know why was Molly okay with Sirius Flooing the trio?

“Hey all, just a quick thing about Chapter 17 for you all to think about. Molly Weasley isn’t okay thinking about her kids taking part in Dumbledore’s Army, but is okay with Sirius using the Floo Network to talk to them when she knows all kinds of contact in and out of the school are being monitored! Ridiculous! Thanks, MuggleCast.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: That’s a good point. I don’t really have anymore to say on that, but it’s a good point.

Andrew: Well, this is why we love having feedback from listeners, because they’re giving us perspectives we might not have thought of. This next email is from Isla on Harry’s blood status.

“Hey, guys!!!! My name is Isla, and I have been listening for a while now and I do have a question. So in the golden trio, Ron is known for being pure-blood, Hermione a Muggle-born, and Harry a half-blood. But we all know that Lily and James went to Hogwarts together and lived in Godric’s Hollow as adults. So why is Harry considered a half-blood if both of his parents were magical? Love the show! #RavenclawPride.”

So James is considered pure-blood, but Lily was Muggle-born, so that’s why he’s considered a half-blood.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: It’s not just about his parents; it’s about their parents and so on and so forth.

Laura: So for example, Ron and Hermione’s kids are half-bloods.

Micah: Right. Well, and it’s presumed that somewhere in Lily’s lineage there was somebody of magical blood. We’d have to track it all the way back.

Eric: I think that was an interview question, yeah, that there are no real out-of-nowhere Muggle borns. But definitely for the Mudblood thing, or the Muggle-born versus half-blood thing, I don’t think it’s 100% consistent. Voldemort himself lies about his own status, but I don’t think it’s 100% consistent over… you can call someone a half-blood even if their grandparent was not magical, or Lily gets called that at one point. So yeah, I think it’s a little inconsistent. But ultimately we’ve answered, I think, why it is that he gets referred to that way.

Laura: Well, and the whole point of it is that it really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. And the whole caste system that the wizarding world has around blood status is very similar to how in certain regions and during certain periods of time, depending on where you were from, or what your particular ethnic background was, certain societies would determine the level of blood purity on the basis of those protected aspects of yourself, and they would come up with very similar, not exactly scientifically specific names. Technically, if somebody… let’s say somebody is a half-blood, but then they have children with someone who’s pure-blooded. That child would colloquially also be considered a half-blood. But what does half-blood really mean? If you have two people who have different quantities of half-blood background in them… it just doesn’t make sense; it’s stupid, and I think that’s by intention, to point out how ridiculous it is to even split people up on the basis of blood status.

Andrew: I do love, though, that each member of the trio is a different blood status. Ron, pure; Hermione, Muggle-born; Harry, half. That’s cool. I hadn’t really thought about that before.

Micah: And the pure-blood is presumably the worst wizard.

Andrew: [laughs] But he’s our Ron.

Micah: Our Won-Won.

Andrew: He couldn’t be further from a Malfoy.

Laura: Next email comes from Bev, who’s writing about alternative professions for Snape. Bev says,

“Hi, y’all. Listening to your episode called ‘The High Inquisitor,’ I wonder what alternative career might have been better for Snape? He’s clearly not suited to teaching at all, so what about dark wizarding academia? Writing books? Research and writing? Not lecturing. Maybe potions inventor? There may be better options, of course.”

But yeah, Bev just wanted to see what our thoughts were. If we were career counselors, or if we were sending Snape to a job fair, what do we think might be good for him?

Eric: I like the dark wizarding academia. From what I understand from friends that are in academia, it’s a very – what’s the word? – toxic kind of space where you can write a paper discrediting or heavily implying that your colleague is a dunderhead, and I think Snape would really love that, and so I can easily see him writing some very sternly-worded letters. “My colleagues aren’t taking this seriously enough” kind of thing.

Andrew: I could see him as a Twitch streamer, maybe playing The Sims and Roller Coaster Tycoon, and he’s drowning his Sims in the pool.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Or making his park attendees fly off a roller coaster and die or drown. That’s what I see for him.

Eric: [imitating Snape] “You all are thinking, ‘I want to go home.’ Well, here’s a foot path that doesn’t go anywhere.”

Andrew: [laughs] No, I mean, I know Bev said she couldn’t see him as a professor, but I could see him in higher education. He doesn’t work as well with kids. Kids are not for him.

Laura: No. Honestly, I could see Snape being a coder, and hear me out: He’s smart enough to be a coder, but generally speaking, if you’re a coder, you’re spending a lot more time with your code and a lot less time interacting with people. Marc even refers to himself as a code gremlin. [laughs] He’s like, “I want to be in my cave and I just want to code and I don’t want to talk to anyone.” So actually, I think this would be an ideal job for Snape.

Andrew: I think that’s a good one, because MuggleNet’s old coder, developer, Damon, he was a total Snape.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: That guy was a vampire. He was mean.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: The only time he was nice to you was when he was nerding out about his passion of coding. Any other time he was horrible to talk to. Bless you, Damon. I hope you’re well. [laughs]

Micah: I could see Snape working in a museum.

Andrew: Really? What, giving tours?

Micah: Just handing out the pamphlets.

Andrew: Dusting the fossils at night?

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew: Night guard? [laughs]

Micah: I would say anything that doesn’t require him to interact with other human beings is probably best suited for Snape.

Eric: As a kid, I really wanted to impress Damon. I wanted him to approve of me.

Andrew: [laughs] And he never gave us his approval.

Eric: No, it never happened. It never happened.

Laura: No, I don’t think any of us ever got that approval.

Eric: No. So our next email is from Jen. It’s a slight bit of a long one, but I love it.

“Dearest MuggleCast,”

Aw, dearest. Thanks.

“First, I love you all so much! Thanks for keeping me company at home for the last four years and for all you do! I work from home by myself, and regularly yell at the pod until Eric says my thoughts out loud for me. Thanks, Eric! Second, I need to jump in and defend against all of the Hogwarts teacher ‘hate.’ Well, not all of it… feel free to continue to hate on Snape and Binns… and maybe Trelawney too; they deserve it. “

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: Okay, okay, so cherry-picking the teacher hate, but calling us out at the same time?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: This is your fan, Eric. This is your fan. [laughs]

Eric: I’m a little… I don’t know how I feel about it. There’s still ten more paragraphs to go.

“As for the rest of it, though, I think it’s been a bit unfair. We ultimately spend very little time in any teachers’ classroom aside from Snape, Binns, Trelawney, and DADA. They represent the worst and the best (Lupin and Moody’s DADA) in the eyes of Harry, so of course he is going to complain and delight about them respectively. As for the other regular non-DADA teachers, we only get small glimpses into their lessons and classes, but in all honesty, they sound pretty engaging. Or at the very least, they sound well planned with true attempts to make them engaging by the professors. They start with a short introduction of facts and/or a demonstration, followed by time for the whole group to practice, and then individual and partner practice. We see this in Flitwick’s introduction to Leviosa, Sprout’s introduction of Mandrakes, McGonagall’s introduction of Vera Verto, and more. In the entire series, we only see a max of 4-5 snippets of each subject out of hundreds of lessons that we don’t see through the years. Are we certain Flitwick doesn’t teach a unit on household and healing charms? Do we really believe that McGonagall would let them leave Hogwarts without attempting to help them understand the purposes of Transfiguration in the real world?”

Eric: And here’s the explanation for these thoughts.

“I was a middle school Social Studies teacher for 14 years, and am now a curriculum creator. As a teacher, I spent HOURS carefully crafting engaging lessons. I worked hard to ensure that no more than 10-15 minutes of a class was notes and lecture, and when it was lecture, I turned things into gossipy soap opera style stories to help students remember. My average lesson was much like a Hogwarts lesson above: a short 10-15 minute introduction of facts (usually with notes because I didn’t have reliable textbooks), and then the rest of the class was activities – reading, writing, drawing, or creating with groups, partners, or independently. At the end of the year, when you asked my ‘Hermione’ students what we did that year, they would summarize all the projects and contests and activities. If you asked my ‘Harry’ students what we did, they would tell you ‘We took notes’ and maybe mention one of their favorite projects. And of course, if you asked my ‘Ron’ students, they would probably say, ‘I don’t know, we took SOOOO many notes.’ I think you can see my point.

Does Dumbledore need to be doing more to regulate his teachers? Definitely. Do you know how many evaluations, teacher development sessions, educational committees, and seminars I went through each year? I think Snape, Trelawney, and even Hagrid could have potentially been decent teachers if there had been the slightest bit of oversight. The simple accountability of having to turn in a weekly lesson plan with some direct feedback to questionable lessons would have turned Trelawney and Hagrid’s classes around. The knowledge that Dumbledore could pop in at any moment for an evaluation would hopefully keep Snape from being such a frequent bully to his students. Binns was probably a lost cause, but I doubt Dumbledore ever even tried to change him… so who knows?

I always hated being lumped together by the principal at staff meetings with blanket statements like ‘We’re slacking on turning in our lesson plans on time.’ Nope! It was like, three slacker teachers that needed to be addressed by admin just like at Hogwarts. Justice for McGonagall! Love y’all! Jen, a.k.a. Muggle McGonagall.”

Andrew and Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Well, thank you for the teacher perspective, Jen.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I have no notes; I just agree.

Eric: Did you like lesson planning, Laura?

Laura: I actually loved lesson planning. I thought it was a lot of fun, but it is a lot of hard work as well, especially… in the real world, especially when I was a new teacher, you had to submit your lesson plans pretty regularly for evaluation. And yeah, there were also some surprise visits, where people would come and just sit in on your classroom and watch you do your thing and give you feedback afterwards. So yeah, it’s a hard job. It really can be intimidating, some of the bureaucratic movements that happen behind the scenes. But I agree with Jen here that what’s really missing is that administrative support from Dumbledore to hold all of the teachers to the same standard, instead of just saying, “Sink or swim,” which is I feel like what he basically does, because there is such inconsistency. I mean, McGonagall, I feel like she is objectively a great teacher, but then you look at someone like Hagrid, who clearly has the raw potential to do really well with teaching Care of Magical Creatures, but he didn’t have any training, presumably, and that’s on Dumbledore.

Micah: I do like the way, though, that she laid out comparing some of the students to Harry, Ron, and Hermione, and how they would react just based on who they are at the end of each of the semesters. That was definitely cool. I will say, though, I feel like the characters that she allowed for criticism at the top of her email are generally the ones that we criticize; I don’t think we throw a whole lot of shade on Flitwick or McGonagall or Sprout. Snape would be the one Head of House exception. I mean, he’s clearly brilliant, but I just don’t think, as we said in the prior email, he connects well with children, so there’s that.

Andrew: I also think if we’re saying that we only see some snippets of each subject, can we really be sure that these teachers aren’t teaching other things? If we say that, shouldn’t we also be able to say that maybe Dumbledore is helping these teachers out behind the scenes, and we just don’t know?

Micah: No.

Andrew: I know there’s evidence to suggest that maybe they could… they’ve definitely needed more training and aren’t receiving it, but I guess my point just is there’s so much we don’t know. And that’s one of the great things about this podcast, is that we can speculate about what is or isn’t happening behind the scenes, and maybe we can paint some pictures ourselves. But look, I’ve got to back up my boy Albus; I just think he might be working a little more behind the scenes than we actually know.

Eric: So I have a high opinion of Flitwick’s classes, even though I don’t really get a chance to say that on the show. I bet he’s probably one of the coolest teachers at Hogwarts. I bet he would give you all the time that you needed; he would answer any of your questions. He’s clearly passionate about the subject that he teaches. And I love Jen’s idea that he would teach household remedies; I think that would be really, really good. I mean, he prescribes, after all, Cheering Charms, right? During a particularly depressing time of year. So I think there’s some good stuff.

Micah: Our next email comes from Jennifer, who says

“I fell behind during the holidays, so I’m catching up on Episode 685. I love this episode so much! It was so much fun and had really great debates. Please have Rex back again; he fits so well with y’all! I wanted to chime in on the prefect debate: I like Ron, but seriously Dean or Neville should have received prefect over Ron or Harry any day. I do like that Ron finally ‘gets something,’ especially in front of his family, but this role should not be it. Dumbledore giving it to Ron is still him choosing candidates like a popularity contest. I dislike the frequent argument that ‘poor Ron’ is the unknown or unpopular kid… I call shenanigans! He is a Weasley, he is Fred and George’s little brother, and Harry’s best friend. Would he have gained this popularity/notoriety without others? We don’t really know, but it doesn’t matter here. He is not just some unknown. I would bet my last Sickle that more people at Hogwarts could pick him out over someone like Theodore Nott or Lisa Turpin. At this point in the story, Ron has consistently been described as an average or below average student that frequently relies on Hermione to correct (and in some cases, do) his work for him, especially in the first few books. Book Ron is not unintelligent, just lazy, which makes his ‘mediocre student’ status even more frustrating. That, combined with his penchant for breaking the rules with Harry, does not speak to the idea that he would make a strong prefect at this point in the story.

Personally, I think Neville by Hermione’s side would have been better and pushed him to become ‘leader Neville’ so much sooner. If Dumbledore is simply going by ‘needs an ego boost,’ then what better candidate than Neville? He, like Ron, is also frequently described as a ‘mediocre student,’ but he is seen determinedly working to succeed on his own (except Potions, but that’s on Snape). That alone makes him the better candidate for prefect. Year 1-4 Ron is just not the man for the job… not yet.

Love you all and love the show, Jen. PS: The episode where Eric’s point of reference of winning a criminal trial was Air Bud and their reference for ‘shadowy characters’ was Dr. Claw and Giovanni from Pokémon brought me immense joy. Thanks for always speaking my Hufflepuff thoughts.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You’re welcome, Jen. I take great pleasure when Air Bud references come to me.

Andrew: I like the idea of Neville being the chosen prefect, but I have to say, would the students in Gryffindor House take that seriously?

Eric: I think they’d have to.

Andrew: I’m sorry, Neville. I know. Well, I’m foreseeing some bullying there if Neville got the role, and I don’t think he could handle it.

Laura: I mean, I’m not trying to be mean, but do we think anyone actually takes Ron seriously as a prefect? And I love Ron.

Eric: But fewer people bully him the way they would bully Neville, because he’s Harry’s friend, but that proves Jen’s point, essentially.

Andrew: Yeah, and Harry and Hermione would have Ron’s back. I mean, they’d have Neville’s back, but not to the same extent, I don’t think.

Micah: But Ron doesn’t even really seem like he wants the title of prefect, just by his actions. He wants it, but Hermione is the one that oftentimes has to do…

Andrew: The role? [laughs]

Micah: The legwork, yeah. She’s the one who’s going out there and reprimanding people. He’s too scared, actually.

Eric: And he’s only ever grudgingly doing his prefect duties. I think what I love most about Jen’s email, besides the nice bit at the end, was the idea that Dumbledore… well, let’s make this more passive voice for Andrew’s ego.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The situation causes a student that was not chosen to be prefect – by whatever powers that be – to be at a loss. We often think about what someone got, but what about the kids who didn’t get to be a prefect? Where did they lose out? So Neville, in this case, the idea that it would have brought his character arc sooner is actually really titillating to me. I like that.

Andrew: This next email is from Abby on teaching styles.

“Hey y’all! I wanted to comment on “I Do, We Do, You Do.” This is a teacher thing in the US. I teach 5th-12th grade band in Ohio, and this is something I do all the time. It falls in the realm of scaffolding, which is just another way of saying a student does something with lots of support, then a little less, then none. For example, I will be teaching a new note to 5th grade. We start with me playing the note, then we do it together, then they play it on their own. I’m not sure what teachers in other countries do, but this is definitely common practice in the US, especially in grade school.”

Okay, good to know.

Eric: I love this!

Andrew: And was this…? We were talking about this in relation to Dumbledore’s Army?

Eric: I think that probably makes a lot of sense, actually.

Laura: Yeah, I think we were also talking about it in terms of what Hagrid could have done to make his Thestral lesson better than what it was.

Micah: Yeah, somebody brought it up and we just didn’t have any idea, right? What it meant. At least, I’m assuming that’s why they wrote in.

Andrew: Oh, really?

Laura: Okay.

Eric: Yeah, so I think that with Hagrid, he could have absolutely taken more leadership with the Thestrals than, “Here they are.” So yeah, I like this a lot. Also, remember when we didn’t know all the music notes, you guys, and could still learn that? I’m getting nostalgic for middle school; I don’t know why.

Laura: Oh God, I can’t think of anywhere I want to be least than my middle school experience.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Next email comes from Helen. Helen is writing about blaming Hermione for Harry’s actions, and she says,

“Hi guys! I just finished listening to your discussion of Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12. As part of the discussion of the interactions between Umbridge, Hermione, and Harry, there was a lot of blame being put on Hermione’s shoulders for what Harry said and did in Umbridge’s class. As a therapist, this was upsetting to me on so many levels. I spend countless hours with clients working to untangle years of self-blame for things that are not their responsibility or out of their control. Then I find myself listening to a discussion blaming Hermione for Harry’s choices. Harry’s words and actions are his responsibility and his alone! I mean, okay, an argument can be made that Voldemort/the Horcrux was directly impacting his brain… but that still does not make it Hermione’s fault.

The bigger picture here is the idea that we are somehow responsible for the actions or emotions of others can be very damaging to an individual, and also, at the extreme end of the spectrum, this is the psychology that traps people in domestic violence (‘It’s my fault he got mad at me’; ‘If I hadn’t done this, he wouldn’t have hit me,’ etc). But as your comments on this show demonstrate, it is definitely an idea that pervades the collective psyche, which is why I spend so much time, with so many people, working to unravel this. The only person responsible for one’s actions, words, and emotions is that person, and no one else. Thanks for listening to my soapbox. That discussion just hit a big nerve with me. Helen.”

Laura: Helen, thank you for sending that in. I agree with you.

Eric: Yeah, sometimes we get it wrong, and sorry to have hit your nerve. I think everything you said makes a lot of sense.

Micah: I do, but I also think it’s important to remember that our actions can also have consequences for other people, and you could make the case for that in this particular instance by Hermione doing what she did. I’m not saying that she’s fully responsible for Harry’s actions, but it does lead him in the direction of eventually responding in the way that he does to Umbridge.

Eric: One thing I’ll say about the latest discussions as we go through Chapter by Chapter is that we’re trying to take the same chapter that we’ve already discussed in 2020 and spin it with a closer focus on a certain character that we certainly wouldn’t have delved into as much before. I think I was in charge of this Hermione discussion in the ‘Professor Umbridge’ chapter, so I want to take responsibility if that discussion was unnerving. I know we wanted to take a more Hermione-focused approach to that chapter in general, so I can easily see how that would have actually sounded like we were blaming Hermione for Harry’s and others’ actions in the chapter, but that was only by the… it was unintentional, and it was based on the formula of the chapter creation, but that’s on me as well.

Andrew: All right, final email, from She Who Shall Not Be Named. This is a Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul.

“Hi, MuggleCast. Your podcast has created a surreal and fantastical period of my life. I am no Muggle, but a former witch of Universal’s Wizarding World. They mandated I go undercover after leaving, of course. This job is as fun as you’d imagine, but it would have eventually become mundane had you four not kept me within the world of magic mentally. I listened as I filled Ollivander’s wand shelves for the night, dusted odd things in Hogwarts, and sat on the empty Hogsmeade street, watching the castle lights and listening to frog choir rehearsals. Your episodes made all of those moments feel other-worldly. They also helped me keep up with the 6-year-olds who knew the names of the Peverell brothers. Can’t thank you enough for your ramblings. Reach out for park tips anytime. She Who Shall Not Be Named.”

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: So if I’m reading between the lines here, she would work at the Wizarding World theme park while listening to MuggleCast?

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Love that.

Andrew: That’s pretty cool.

Eric: And just the idea that we regularly and weekly help people stay connected to the wizarding world is very nice to hear.

Andrew: Yeah, keeping up with the 6-year-olds who knew the names of the Peverell brothers. That’s funny. [laughs]

“P.S. Things I’ve learned from my time as a student: Hufflepuffs are the best overall (I was so wrong about them as a kid); Slytherins are the coolest by far (Those kids? 10/10. I’m suspicious of their confidence, but I also want one as a life coach); Ravenclaws are either warm, kind, deep thinkers, or blunt and bitchy; and Gryffindors come off as generic, it’s true. Random-ass personalities. Doesn’t matter, ‘cause we’ll still sweep y’all in Quidditch. Signed, a Gryffindor.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: So wait, this person is judging the Hogwarts Houses based off of the tourists coming through the Wizarding World land? That’s not fair. There’s a lot of fake fans that go through the theme park.

Micah: The turnstile?

Andrew: Yeah. I think that’s very funny, but also, I think it’s a little unfair. [laughs]


Lynx Line


Andrew: All right, Micah, we have a Lynx Line today, right?

Micah: Yeah, we asked our patrons over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast: How would we celebrate 700 episodes in the wizarding world?

Andrew: Uh-oh.

Micah: And I have to say, the biggest thrill I saw here was the Hog’s Head. [laughs]

Andrew: Of course!

Eric: Classic.

Andrew: That’s where I always want to go.

Eric: They know us very well.

Andrew: Rachel said,

“Begin at Hogwarts for live MuggleCast from the Great Hall, followed by getting their portraits done in the Room of Requirement because it’ll have all the art supplies. Then it’s all aboard the Knight Bus to travel around to place their portraits. Micah’s will go in the Hog’s Head, Laura’s will go in the Department of Mysteries because she was so sure the trio would revisit it in Deathly Hallows…”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: They should’ve.

“… Eric will put theirs on the Hogwarts Express, and Andrew would have tried to put his next to Dumbledore’s but settled for Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes instead. End the day with a magnificent magical fireworks display over the lake.”

Eric: Michael says, “If Micah isn’t visiting Aberforth at the Hog’s Head, something suspicious is going on.”

Micah: Zachary says,

“I can see the day starting off with a bonus MuggleCast recording at Flourish and Blotts followed by a trip to the Leaky Cauldron. Then around lunchtime, a Floo Powder trip to the Three Broomsticks for lunch and a butterbeer. After lunch, I can see y’all going on a tour of Hogwarts, maybe try a game of Quidditch, and then a special recording of MuggleCast in the same iteration of the Room of Requirement that Potterwatch aired. To finish the night, you all end up at the Hog’s Head where Aberforth and Micah get lost in conversation about goats, Andrew and Eric kill time by cracking jokes of the adult nature, while Laura sips her drink while laughing and rolling her eyes at the nature of the conversation.”

Laura: Yeah, you get it. Leah says,

“7 is the most powerful magical number in this series, so I’d have to say something like a pickup game of Quidditch with all four hosts and their three partners playing to make a team of seven, versus Snape, Neville, Newt, Luna (their first date choices) + Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Who’s playing which position? I’d love to hear the hosts duke it out if they read this one!”

Laura: Honestly, I would want to be a Beater.

Andrew: Oh, good. I want to be Seeker.

Laura: I’ve just got to get that frustration out, you know?

Eric: Yeah, Chaser sounds fun, especially if our partners are allowed to play. We could both pass the Quaffle to one another.

Micah: Keeper.

Andrew: Keeper? Okay.

Eric: Ooh, Micah wants the stressful job.

Andrew: Ashley says,

“Clearly it would begin in the Hog’s Head with a few pints. Perhaps Micah in particular is also several shots of Firewhisky deep.”

Yeah, he is.

“Andrew and Eric are firing off some Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes fireworks in each others’ general direction.”

[Eric laughs]

“Laura shakes her head, muttering to the witch at the corner table how nonsensical and frankly hazardous this practice is.”

Andrew: Oh, whatever, Laura!

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: We’re going to have some fun.

“Though she is secretly enjoying the chaos.”

I should have read that sentence first.

Laura: Yeah, that is actually pretty on brand. Go on.

Andrew: “A local Hogsmeade band takes the floor and begins to play a ballad about a particularly daft troll and a lovesick wizard. Suddenly we look over and realize that Micah is now slow dancing with a goat and commenting about the intoxicating odor of its hooves. A grand time is had by all.”

Micah, is this really the label you want on yourself? You caused this, all these goat jokes.

Micah: If you go back and look at the transcripts, I’m not entirely sure that I started this, but we can check on that for next week’s episode.

Laura: Oh.

Andrew: Sure. This is the path you have chosen, Micah. You have chosen…

Laura: [laughs] The path of goat.

Micah: Nicole says, “Room of Requirement. Unlimited booze.”

Andrew: Ooh, best answer.

Laura: Hell yeah. And Jen, bringing us home here, says,

“Shots, shots, shots! Starting with breakfast in the Great Hall, leading to a day of Apparition to all the hot spots – Department of Mysteries, Diagon Alley, the Burrow, catch a quick Quidditch game, and maybe take in the sights at Tom Riddle’s cave (just make sure only to drink the shots you brought with you there!), followed by a trip on the Hogwarts Express with a dinner provided by the trolley witch, and end with a bigass party in the Hog’s Head with the fabulous Chloe & Pam and all of us!”

Oh my God, I love this. Cute.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, who participated. Special thank you, again, to our patrons. Again, you are the reason we have reached 700 episodes. We launched the Patreon with the goal of doing more episodes of MuggleCast, and you all really came out to help us, and we can’t thank you enough. And even if you don’t support us on Patreon, we’re very grateful for your listenership, whether you joined us just this episode, or you’ve listened to all 700 episodes, or anywhere in between. Thank you so much for your support.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: Capable of reaching a length of roughly 19 feet and weighing around 28 pounds, what is the largest known venomous snake species in the world? The correct answer was a king cobra! And that’s the most venomous snake species. There are larger snakes, but they’re not venomous. They’re constrictors! Like anaconda and others.

Micah: They’ll just eat you.

Eric: Correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Buff Daddy; Correct Harry Potter answer: Basilisk; Grawp Tuah…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … Lupinslady; Mary Popp-lock-and-drop-ins; Micah’s Voice Makes My Butterbeer Extra Frothy; Muggle McGonagall… hey, we heard from her! Patronus Seeker; Siriusly the Best; Sneaky Snek; Thaaaaaanks Amigo; The Milk for Nagini; These questions are strange lately, this is my first time, am I doing it right?; and Tofu Tom. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What is the nearest prime number to 700? The number 700. If you’d like to submit for next week’s Quizzitch question, any of you math nuts out there – or anyone with Google handy – submit it on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Don’t forget that to celebrate 700 episodes, the remaining inventory of our MuggleCast “19 Years Later” T-shirts are now available in the overstock store. There will be a link in the show notes, but just go to MuggleMillennial.etsy.com to pick up one of these shirts. It’s a great way to celebrate 700 episodes and help support the show. Also, if you love the show and want to help us out in other ways besides Patreon, we have MuggleCast Gold on Apple Podcasts. We have the MuggleCast merch store, not to be confused with the overstock store; that’s MuggleCastMerch.com. We’d also appreciate if you left a review of the show in your favorite podcast app. Make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app, and if you have any other Harry Potter friends in your life, and you think they could use some more Harry Potter fun in their lives, tell that friend about the show. Cheers, y’all, to 700 episodes. Here’s to the next 700, where we’ll be discussing the rebooted reboot of the Harry Potter TV show… in animated form.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But next week we’re going to St Mungo’s.

Andrew: Yes, Chapter by Chapter will resume next week. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: For the 700th time, I guess, we’ll see you next time. Bye, everyone.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Transcript #699

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #699, Avada Cow-Davra (OOTP Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’re your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies, the forthcoming TV show – we have an update there coming in a minute – so make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app; that way you will never miss a new episode. And this week on the show, in addition to a little Harry Potter TV news, grab your tissues, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “The Eye of the Snake.” Yet another chapter that’s Slytherin-coded in its title. We had “Lion and the Serpent,” “Eye of the Snake”…

Eric: What’s going on here? It’s so much.

Andrew: I am a Slytherin, so this is my type of chapter title.

Eric: Ahh, right.

Micah: No “Eye of the Tiger.”

Andrew: [singing] “Eye of the tiger…” That’s in Half-Blood Prince, right?

Eric: I was going to say… I was trying to thread the needle on that – but the Gryffindor, the lions – and Micah, you just went out and said it. Thank you for that.

Micah: Well, Andrew is not too far, growing up near Philadelphia, so I figure maybe there’d be a little bit of a tie there.

Andrew: Like Rocky?

Micah: Rocky, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, okay, okay.


News


Andrew: Well, let’s get into some Harry Potter TV show news. It looks like we have our Hagrid: Nick Frost! You may recognize him from the Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg movies The World’s End

Micah: Nope.

Andrew: … and Shaun of the Dead.

Micah: Nope.

Andrew: He voices a droid, actually, in the Disney+ Star Wars series Skeleton Crew.

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: He’s 52 years old, and I think he’s got the Hagrid look. I see it. Right?

Laura: Yeah, I think this is a great casting. I’m so excited about this. Honestly, I’m feeling really positive based on all the casting news we’ve gotten so far. This is another win, I think.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Eric, do you know this actor? I heard Micah nope-ing, so it sounds like he hasn’t seen these motion pictures.

Eric: Yeah, Micah’s nope-ing was covering up my yep-ing.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Ahh.

Eric: I’ve known Nick Frost for a while – yep, yep, yep, yep – including The World’s End, which also starred Emma Watson.

Andrew: No, no, no, you’re thinking The End of the World, not The World’s End, right?

Laura: Yeah, World’s End was a different movie.

Eric: The World’s End is a pub, right?

Andrew: It is.

Eric: I think they fight or kick Emma Watson at the end of it. I think she’s in that movie.

Laura: No, she’s not.

Andrew: [laughs] You’re thinking of that Seth Rogan movie about the end of the world. What is that one called? The End of the…?

Laura: This Is the End, or something like that.

Andrew: This Is the End.

Eric: The World’s End pub, I’m pretty sure.

Andrew: No, you’re… [laughs]

Eric: Anyway, Nick Frost is great. Hot Fuzz. Everyone knows Hot Fuzz.

Andrew and Laura: Yes.

Eric: And I think he was in a Doctor Who episode. I think he played Santa Claus at some point. So yes, Nick Frost, and not just riffing on the name there. Comedic character. And I think that Hagrid has a lot of heart, but Hagrid is also funny, and especially in the early years, we see sort of the awkwardness, and I think it’s a great opportunity for some humor. Now, because he’s collaborated with Simon Pegg so many times, I said that now I want Simon Pegg to be Peeves. But actually, one of our listeners, Robert, I think I was telling this to, said, “Actually, what if Simon Pegg instead played Phineas Nigellus Black?”

Laura: Ohh.

Andrew: Oh, okay. That’d be cool.

Eric: Which we know was actually the role that Simon Pegg played in Hogwarts Legacy, the likeness after him, and so now that’s my headcanon. Now that has to happen.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, and technically it would be canon for him to be cast. I mean, he originated the role.

Eric: Unbelievable.

Micah: Now, in Skeleton Crew, he played SM-33.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Okay.

Andrew: I just said a droid because I thought it was like… I don’t know. I haven’t seen the show.

Micah: Eric, you and I did a episode of What the Hype?! on Skeleton Crew, and I loved SM-33, so maybe that is a good omen.

Andrew: Did SM-33 have some comedic chops?

Micah: I would say so, because…

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Oh yeah, he’s a swashbuckling pirate droid that does and doesn’t know the key to the Skeleton Crew’s origins. Yeah, it’s a great role.

Micah: But I do think it is important because Hagrid really is the heartbeat of the Harry Potter series. He’s a major role. And I know we’ve gotten casting for Dumbledore, for Snape, presumably for McGonagall, but Hagrid is different. Hagrid is everybody’s best friend, and I feel like this is one of the characters you really need to get right. You can do all right with the trio, but Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape… that trio, I would say, is extremely important.

Andrew: Well, and I’m also thinking now… we’ve touched before on who they’re prioritizing in terms of casting, and now I’m starting to think we have our Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, and Hagrid; I’m wondering if they’re prioritizing the characters who they want to screen test the trio against. Because obviously they can’t screen test these young kids against the entire cast; there’s going to be too many characters, but who are the most important to screen test them against? I would probably say Dumbledore and Hagrid might be number one and two, and then probably Snape and McGonagall.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah, 100%. You think about which adult characters are they going to share the most screen time with? It’s those four.

Eric: So thank you all for correcting me in real time. It turns out I have seen both The World’s End and This Is the End.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Both films apocalyptic, came out in 2013, and their runtime is within two minutes of each other. Very similar movie, I’m going to go out on a limb and say.

Andrew: [laughs] Eric was like, “I was sure Emma Watson and Nick Frost were in a two hour and five minute movie together!”

Eric: “I’m pretty sure, yeah!” No, I was slightly off there. But you know what? I’ve seen both movies, so that’s why. I was like, “I know I’ve seen this.” Okay.

Andrew: Well, maybe James Franco will be cast in the Harry Potter TV show and you can be like, “I saw him in This Is the End!”

Eric: Yes, and Seth Rogen for Slughorn. You’ve heard it here first.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I know we’re six years out, but it’s going to happen.

Andrew: None of the actors we’ve been speaking about that have been reportedly cast in the Harry Potter TV show have been confirmed by Warner Bros., so I guess you could say these castings could still change. John Lithgow continues talking about playing Dumbledore, even though Warner Bros. hasn’t said a peep, which I find so funny. [laughs]

Laura: I actually feel like that’s a very Dumbledore thing to do.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Either he talks too little or he talks too much.

Micah: So is it fair to say that we anticipate a press release at some point in the near future?

Andrew: Well, they’re going to start filming over the summer, so I would think maybe by the time they announce the start of production – because usually there’s an announcement made when that type of thing happens – we’ll get a bunch of cast members. So yeah, we have our Dumbledore, our Snape, our McGonagall, and our Hagrid, if the reports are to be believed. So stay with MuggleCast for more Harry Potter TV show coverage, and follow us in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. If you love MuggleCast and want to help us soar like Harry on a Firebolt, visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge today. You’ll get instant access to over 150 – I counted them up the other day – bonus MuggleCast episodes, ad-free episodes, a new physical gift every year, the chance to cohost the show one day, and so much more. We could not do this without you, so we are as grateful for you and your support as Cho is to have a shoulder to kiss and cry on.

Laura: Uh, okay.

Eric: That was so well put. Just like in the book.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Just trying to tie it into the chapter. Other great ways to support us: You can pick up merch at MuggleCastMerch.com. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can also send an owl to a friend about the show if they need some Harry Potter friends in their lives. Also, visit MuggleCast.com for more information about the show and how to contact us.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: Now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “The Eye of the Snake,” like we did a few years ago, right, Eric?

Eric: That’s exactly right. We last talked about this chapter on Episode 457 of MuggleCast, titled “The Grim Granger.” Came out on March 16 of 2020, and here’s a clip from that.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 457.

Laura: Whereas in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid is happy to accept her help, and then here in Order of the Phoenix, he’s very resistant.

Andrew: “I got this, girl.” Good on Hermione for wanting to help Hagrid, but poor Hagrid gets no help from anybody else except for a student.

Micah: So you think somebody else should have tried to help him out? Give him warning about Umbridge?

Andrew: Maybe, maybe. Does he have anybody who can come to his aid when he needs it? Or does he have any close friends who can help him out from time to time? It just seems like he’s hopeless.

Laura: Yeah. [coughs] Dumbledore.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: Was that, Laura, your COVID cough, or was that a comedic cough?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I will neither confirm nor deny.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Too early, too early.

Eric: Yeah, March 16, 2020. That’s the week. Man.

[Laura laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Well, we are actually going to be picking up that thread as the chapter begins with Hermione’s attempt to right a future, at that point, wrong: Hagrid’s doomed lesson. I call it doomed because it’s… well, it’s doomed for many reasons, but Hermione has attempted to get through to him. “Hagrid, this is what you can expect. Umbridge is really, really awful. She’s going to spot and exploit any weakness.” He doesn’t seem to, first of all, be listening to her; he’s distracted. Hermione spent a good portion of her day down there. She was there for hours, even half an hour just knocking on the door. He wasn’t there; he was off with, we know, Grawp in the forest. But he’s so distracted, he’s not paying any attention, and all she’s trying to do is do a solid for him. But it’s kind of crazy that Hagrid is not receptive to this, because you would think he missed being back as much as they missed him, so wouldn’t he welcome the kind of help that she’s trying to give?

Laura: I do think – not to reiterate something I said in the clip from five years ago – but it is really interesting to see Hagrid’s evolution, and I think this is something that I was trying to get at last week when we talked about the shift in Hagrid’s character. I think because of having had such an important mission given to him, I think Hagrid is feeling an extra level of responsibility. It’s very clear that he’s trying at some points to create a hierarchy between he and the trio, so that he’s not letting children hear more or do more than they need to, and I think that’s kind of what he’s doing here, by trying to take ownership of his lessons, even in the face of what Hermione is warning him about, which ultimately does come to pass.

Eric: That’s interesting because in this same chapter during his lesson, Hagrid tells literally everyone that Dumbledore sometimes sneaks out a Thestral and takes it on long journeys. I’m pretty sure Dumbledore didn’t want that fact known, so Hagrid is a great agent for Dumbledore.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: He tells them… all the secrets are coming out.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, Hagrid… we’ve known him since Book 1 to be a horrible secret keeper.

Eric: Loose lips. But yeah, I think that’s very interesting about him wanting to come off as more of an adult. I think he doesn’t… and again, with Umbridge, I think we all have a tendency to do this: If somebody told you that a teacher like Umbridge was coming in Book 5, and we hadn’t read Book 5 yet, how much can you really understand about how awful she is, or how much prep needs to happen to handle her? So I think it’s not until she’s there in front of him that he really sees what’s going on.

Laura: Agree.

Eric: But regarding the lesson itself, it is Thestrals in the Forbidden Forest, which… I decided to break the lesson down into pros and cons. There’s one pro, and there’s six or seven cons we’re going to discuss. [laughs]

Andrew: I did want to say – before we get to your pros and cons, Eric – Hagrid has to make a shrieking cry to get the Thestrals to come out of hiding, which scares the students. And also, I’m trying to picture Hagrid doing a shrieking cry, and that’s hard to imagine, isn’t it?

Laura: I imagine it sounding like a bird cry, you know?

Andrew: “CA-CAW!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Essentially, yeah.

Andrew: I think I just disturbed my sleeping dog when I did that.

Laura: Probably.

Eric: I picture it more of like the Obi-Wan Kenobi – not to take it to Star Wars again – but when Obi-Wan tries to ward off, I think it’s the sand people, he makes this Krayt dragon shriek. I think it’s like, “Wrahhhh!” kind of thing, but better. That, to me, is kind of what it sounds like in my head.

Micah: I think what it shows, though, is that Hagrid has an understanding of these creatures that maybe other professors or other people who would approach teaching this course wouldn’t necessarily have. We know that he has been able to basically create this group of Thestrals, which doesn’t seem… almost domesticate them in a way, right? That’s not something that I think many people have been able to do, at least from what we’re told in this book. But I likened the sound maybe to the same sound as when Aberforth gets a hold of one of his goats.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: [laughs] That “Okay” from Eric sounded like a “All right, we’re moving on.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “All right, Micah.”

Eric: The Thestrals like to watch, and so they’ll come out to that sound.

Laura: Oh. I think we should keep it moving.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, so anyway…

Micah: Let’s, though, just before we jump into the lesson itself, I do think it’s important to connect some threads here back to Prisoner of Azkaban, because this lesson is very similar to a lesson that happens with the hippogriff Buckbeak, where there’s just a lot of nonsense happening throughout the course of the lesson, and it ultimately results in Draco getting injured. We’re dealing, of course, with winged creatures in both instances, and in one case… actually, in both cases; I think the students are quite fearful of Buckbeak, and they’re also quite fearful of Thestrals for very different reasons, so there is a through line here going back to Book 3.

Eric: I like that.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. And I think we can pull the thread a bit more, too, and say that in both cases, Harry is kind of the odd man out, if you will. He’s, in Book 3, one of the only students who’s affected by Dementors, and now he’s one of the only students that can see Thestrals. Poor Harry.

Eric: Why is it always him?

Micah: And in both cases, Hagrid ends up in trouble with the Ministry.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: Yeah, that’s pretty good. Well, it was mildly satisfying to see Draco a little worried about the forest.

Micah: A bit.

Eric: He’s kind of freaking out. “What did he say? What did he say was in there? Huh? Huh? These are going to be trained, right? Not like last time?” Yeah, you better squirm, buddy. So that was pretty satisfying. But actually, to your point, Micah, about what you were saying, he says that he was the only person in Britain who’s trained Thestrals, and now, that does speak to his competence. I don’t know so much that he’s the only one that could do it as he is the only one that maybe would do it, that would see the value in these creatures. Maybe… I’m sure it’s difficult, but at the same time, Thestrals aren’t from what it seems like on anybody’s radar, largely because so few people can see them. It’s just a really interesting niche that Hagrid himself has carved out. So it does go to his credit, I think, overall, and when we’re looking at this class in terms of pros and cons, ultimately the pro I have is that Thestrals are interesting. They ultimately… even if you can’t see them, there was enough with this lesson to unnerve people, and I don’t know if that’s always a positive thing, but ultimately, I think he had the whole class’s attention probably the whole time.

Andrew: Definitely, especially because only a small number of the students can see the Thestrals and the others can’t, but then they’re looking at this dead cow, and something seems to be chomping away at it, and they can’t see what that is. So it’s definitely a fascinating lesson, and one I would be interested in seeing Hagrid teach me. I don’t want the Blast-Ended Skrewts and some of these other strange ones.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Right, they get a mention too, like, “At least it’s not Skrewts.” But Harry is just happy that he’s not crazy.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The fact that he happened into this lesson and he sees these winged creatures that he’s been looking at all year that pull the school carriages. He’s so relieved to… he’s about to figure out what these creatures’ deal is, so that’s a nice resolution. I mean, ultimately, even though I just said that the class is interesting enough to keep everyone’s attention, I don’t know that it is the world’s biggest setting-yourself-up-for-success to teach a lesson on something that only three, or if Hagrid didn’t know, a very small number of students are going to be able to see. Yes, people are going to be able to see the dead cow get eaten; how enticing will that be to watch, though? And for a prolonged period of time, that’s kind of gross. You’re going to be relying on what the students who can see them see, and it looks like everyone who can see them besides Harry is ill. The Slytherin that can see them is watching its tail or something; Neville is beside himself, kind of getting creeped out. So ultimately, although they’re interesting, they’re off-putting. I don’t think this is actually the world’s best choice for Hagrid.

Andrew: I was kind of hoping that Hagrid’s dead cow was going to activate the students’ ability to see Thestrals somehow.

Eric and Laura: Ohhh.

Eric: That would’ve been really cool.

Andrew: Okay, they saw death with the dead cow maybe. [laughs]

Laura: Well, yeah.

Andrew: This sounds really bad, but Hagrid kills the cow right in front of them.

[Andrew: and Laura laugh]

Eric: “And today, class, we have a prisoner from the Ministry of Magic here. He’s been sentenced to death.”

Andrew: “Everybody say 1, 2, 3, Avada Kedavra!” Avada Cow-davra. Abracadabra, Gaga ooh-la-la.

Laura: “You all learned the Unforgivable Curses last year.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I think for research purposes, you would think there was some way to temporarily activate the ability to see Thestrals if you had not seen a human die before, right? Doesn’t that kind of make sense?

Eric: Well, yeah, and if anything, powder, right? Baby powder, or something that’s a light dusting…

Micah: Pixie dust.

Eric: Pixie dust, of course.

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say here. I feel like this… it is a con, based on the way the lesson happens, but I feel like this could be a pro if you did it the right way. By finding a way for every… the 95% of people who can’t see them, still finding a way for them to engage… like, let them touch the Thestrals. We know they’re domesticated; let people who are feeling brave enough get up and sit on one’s back. We know Dumbledore takes them out sometimes. We know everybody’s going to be riding a Thestral at the end of this book. So I think there are tactile ways that people who can’t see them could be engaged. And then honestly, the name of the game from a teacher perspective is if you can find a way to get your students to engage with each other over the material, that’s a total win. So if you could have these students talking with and educating each other about what they’re learning about Thestrals based on what they can or can’t see, it could have been a really cool lesson.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: The reason why it’s such a big miss, though, for me is because this is Hagrid’s first lesson back, and he’s tripping over his own feet because he’s not really doing a great job of setting himself up for success. He’s showing them a creature that only a very small portion of the students can actually see and therefore engage with. Think it’s even mentioned at one point that these are NEWT-level creatures, and Hagrid is bringing them to an OWL-level class, and it’s only further complicated by the fact that Umbridge shows up and is going to make his experience even that much worse than it already is. And I’m not sure what Hagrid could have done to make this go right at the end of the day. It’s clear that he’s still going through quite a bit. The students have also just come off a series of classes where they’ve been really well educated by Grubbly-Plank, so it’s kind of like the only direction that it can go is down, and Hagrid makes sure that it goes really far down. And I love Hagrid, but it’s just a tough spot for him to be in right here.

Laura: I agree. Hagrid is always way more concerned with making a big splash and impressing people, getting the “ooh” and “ahh” factor, so he’s not thinking two steps beyond that, of like, “Okay, well, when I introduce Thestrals that 95% of my class isn’t even going to be able to see, what then?”

Eric: Right.

Laura: Feels like that. It’s the next steps part that he’s frequently missing.

Eric: And Umbridge’s ultimate inspection during this lesson – though she’s a little late, which is rude – was not unannounced. She apparently left a letter with him, and still he brushed it off, despite all of Hermione’s advice. And so it’s kind of his own fault, anything that should happen to him, although it’s sad to see because she clearly has it in for him for multiple reasons. But ultimately, Umbridge can’t see what’s going on either. If Hagrid had actually designed the lesson – to Laura, what you’re saying – in a way where the Thestrals can be seen, or at least viewed somehow by the class, then Umbridge could maybe see the merit of teaching these today. But he should have just stuck to Grubbly-Plank’s lesson plans. Apparently, it was all worked out.

Andrew: I actually think the fact that many students can’t see them does make it a good lesson, because it’s fascinating how they can see them. Now, I do agree; maybe he needs some photos of these, some illustrations of what the Thestrals actually look like.

Eric: Illustrations, yes.

Andrew: Or how about say, “Hey, Harry. Hey, Neville. Can you describe what it looks like for the rest of the class?”

Laura: Yep.

Micah: That’s a great point. I did want to call BS, though, on Umbridge not being able to see them.

Laura: Right.

Micah: It seems very strange that someone her age wouldn’t be able to see Thestrals, and I know you actually have to see death, which is different than just seeing a dead body or a dead cow, but she seems to be a middle-aged woman at this point. I know it adds to the story, the fact that she can’t see them, because it just makes his lesson even that much worse. But it is a little surprising, especially considering the type of person that she is, and we know that she’s very much in league with Voldemort as the series progresses.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: She seems like the kind of person who would not turn down an opportunity to witness an execution, you know what I mean?

Eric: Oof, that’s well put, yeah.

Laura: So I don’t know; I guess I would wonder what would be the reason for her to pretend she couldn’t see them? I mean, I guess it adds to the ruse she’s putting on.

Andrew: Yeah, to be contrarian.

Eric: The fact that he planned something so haphazardly, she could easily put herself on the side of the students. And we’ve all read the chapter; she goes around and basically recruits volunteers to make fun of the lesson, ultimately, and she uses their feedback, even appropriating Neville’s bemused stare to say that he’s afraid of them and intimidated. And there’s this whole half-breed thing, there’s this whole Hagrid’s intelligence thing, but she’s just absolutely running amok. And in fact, why do this during a Gryffindor/Slytherin lesson? This is another problem. Hagrid allowed himself to get inspected in a room – or a forest clearing – full of his enemies. All of the Slytherins hate him. Many of them are quoted by the Daily Prophet as saying negative things about him in the past; if not the giant article of last year, then the first one with the hippogriff, Buckbeak, that we were talking about earlier. So he’s surrounded by his enemies, and it’s just not smart for him to have taken any risks ultimately, and I know that’s kind of Hagrid’s thing is taking risks, but he should have played it way more safe or done the work to follow up. He should have even told Hermione.

Andrew: Maybe part of the reason he didn’t think this through is because he was just excited to be back at school and excited to be teaching again, so he was just kind of riding on joy.

Eric: Well, just instead of saying, “Okay, Hermione, I’m not listening to you about anything,” he should have said, “I’m not going to listen to what you want me to teach, but here: I’m doing Thestrals. How do I make it so more people can see them?” Something like that, and she would have helped him with that. She would have had the exact spell ready.

Micah: Part of me thinks he’s just distracted with everything else that’s going on with Grawp, which we don’t know about yet at this point. But it seems like having just gotten back from his trip with Madame Maxime, having really not presumably had a whole lot of time to talk with Dumbledore about that, and the fact that his brother is beating the crap out of him every time that he goes to visit him, I just don’t think his attention is really focused on the lesson. And honestly, this is kind of an easy lesson for him, because these are creatures – as you said before, Eric – that he has domesticated and has been able to get under his control, so he doesn’t really necessarily have to worry about the lesson itself getting out of control, because he seems to have a level of control over the situation itself. But it leads to something I wanted to bring up later, which is, how can he have been back for even just a day or two and not have talked to Dumbledore? Not have gotten any…? Going back to what Laura said in the flashback, how is it possible that he didn’t get a heads-up on Umbridge? It makes no sense to me.

Laura: Well, do we pin that on Dumbledore?

Micah: He’s the headmaster! 100%. Sorry, Andrew.

Laura: I mean, if Umbridge came to see… it’s kind of shocking to me that Umbridge came to see Hagrid before Dumbledore tried to see Hagrid.

Andrew: Do we know for sure Dumbledore and Hagrid haven’t spoken since he’s been back?

Eric: I don’t think we know for sure.

Laura: No, but…

Andrew: Because he just went on a mission for him, so it leads me to believe that they would have checked in. And sure, what if Dumbledore said to Hagrid, “Umbridge is going to be coming through one of your classes; just go with it”? It would be strange that Dumbledore didn’t try to suggest what type of lesson to do, but maybe Dumbledore is also like, “Yeah, she’s going to be making changes at the school, but they’re going to be temporary, let’s hope, and I can undo all this after.”

Eric: Yeah. The weird thing is… the only thing that calls into question for me whether Dumbledore has talked to Hagrid or not is the circumstances by which Hagrid came back. He and Madame Maxime broke things off when he wanted to take Grawp back with him, and that was not Dumbledore’s orders. Dumbledore probably wants nothing to do with Grawp. Dumbledore, if he knew, would probably be like, “That’s a horrible idea to bring Grawp into the Forbidden Forest,” and so I’m saying it’s Hagrid’s own direction and personal business that maybe scuttled any chance… maybe Hagrid is avoiding Dumbledore, even, because he doesn’t want Dumbledore to know what he’s using the forest for.

Laura: Yeah, and I think that’s the thing with Hagrid right now; he’s so guarded. Hagrid is so guarded right now. He’s not letting down the walls; he’s not letting the trio or anyone else fully see what’s going on with him right now. I do find it interesting thinking about what Dumbledore would have said or told Hagrid to do if Hagrid had just been upfront that he had found his brother. I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would have said, “No, you’ve got to leave him there.” I think Dumbledore would have tried to help in some way.

Andrew: I agree.

Laura: I don’t know if he would have agreed to keeping him in the Forbidden Forest, but I mean, Dumbledore has done lots of things that we’ve chronicled here on this show that don’t necessarily make sense. [laughs]

Eric: He could help Hagrid airlift Grawp to a refuge of some sort where he could visit him. Yeah, yeah, I agree, ultimately. So really, the last con I have here is just that, for the whole death thing that goes on, Hagrid states that the bad omen surrounding Thestrals is wrong; they’re actually really intelligent. From what we see, he doesn’t actually explain or demonstrate the Thestrals’ intelligence, so somebody like Parvati Patil, who only knows about Thestrals because of Trelawney talking about them, is more inclined to believe that they are, in fact, a bad omen, and think that Hagrid has doomed the whole class to something bad, because even though the Thestrals are right in front of them, again, they can’t see them. And if Hagrid is just… they’re going to take Hagrid’s word for it? Why would they take Hagrid’s word for it that they’re smart? Have you guys ever seen a raven… what is the word? A raven show at the medieval renaissance fair or something like that. Those birds are brilliant, and they prove it. They show them doing things that are very, very interesting. You’re like, “Wow, how didn’t that ever occur to me that birds could be that smart?” That’s what Hagrid should have done. But because he doesn’t, I ultimately don’t think he threads the needle on this whole “They’re not cursed” thing. I think unfortunately, it actually invites more speculation from the Parvati Patil types to be a little bit more nervous.

Micah: The one thing, though, that Hagrid does a really good job of throughout his classes is he does find a way to demystify a lot of the stigmas around these creatures, and so I’m more inclined to side with him in this case than I am with somebody like Trelawney. And it is maybe coincidental that we’re pitting two professors here against each other that ultimately are going to end up getting sacked from the school because they’re not really good at their jobs.

Andrew: So let’s talk about Umbridge.

Micah: No.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: We’ve mentioned a couple times now she comes in to the class. We were talking last week about how Umbridge might be intimidated by Hagrid, having just met him and they’re standing in his hut, so maybe that’s why she’s not pushing the line of questioning a little more, that night, anyway. But here, during his class, she doesn’t seem intimidated at all. She’s muttering these negative notes that she’s taking out loud. I’m wondering if she feels like she has safety in numbers by having the students around her. It seems clear at this point, Umbridge loves attention. When she has appeared in other classrooms as well, she’s also asking the professors questions while they are trying to teach; she is interrupting the lessons, so she’s an attention you-know-what. Do you think she feels confident in front of Hagrid in this scene because she’s surrounded by the students, and she gets to taunt him face-to-face with an audience?

Eric: Yeah. Well, she’s getting energy. And it’s not just students; it’s her future Inquisitorial Squad. It’s the Slytherins, again, that just love her. And so yes, I do think she’s playing off of them very well, and that could be a big reason why she’s not more intimidated by Hagrid.

Micah: I do think she almost has a sixth sense about insecurity or weakness, and she can definitely sense that. She probably sensed it after her initial conversation with Hagrid just a few days prior, and we know that she’s likely been filled in on Hagrid as a professor at Hogwarts: the articles that were referenced earlier, the prior experiences that he has, going all the way back to his time at Hogwarts with the Chamber of Secrets; that likely got out at some point. What happened with Buckbeak in Harry’s third year… so Hagrid is a known entity, and this whole lesson is a complete clown show for him, and she’s loving every minute of it. That’s the reality of it. And as was said, she can play off of Draco and Pansy and all of the Slytherins, and even some of the Gryffindors, to some extent; she’s able to twist Neville’s words to her own advantage. And I mean, I think she’s just here for the fun. I’m actually frustrated that she can just show up whenever she wants and interrupt the lesson, to Andrew’s point earlier, but she’s loving every minute of this.

Eric: She made up her mind already before setting foot in the forest.

Micah: Of course she did. But let’s be real, she’s walking in on a lesson where you can’t actually see the lesson. How is that going to work in Hagrid’s favor?

Eric: Right, so the cons are pretty steep, y’all.

Laura: Yeah, I think Umbridge just didn’t get enough attention as a child.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ll go with that.

Laura: Does this occur to anyone else? She’s very performative, very theatrical, wants all eyes on her…

Andrew: And now she’s in a school amongst young people getting what she wished she had as a young person.

Micah: I’m glad you brought that up, Laura…

Eric: Yeah, we’re actually going to talk about, or look into Umbridge’s childhood.

Micah: Yeah, there’s a great write-up on WizardingWorld.com about…

Andrew: HarryPotter.com, excuse you.

Micah: HarryPotter.com.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Potter-No-More.

Micah: It all redirects.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But it details her history and the lead-up to her time at Hogwarts and what follows that. One quote that I pulled from it just in terms of relating it to her opinions of Hagrid based on the fact that he is half-giant… and she tries to also make out that because of that, maybe he’s a little bit slow on the uptake; maybe he’s not as smart as everybody else. But I think a little bit about her childhood sheds some light on this. It’s said,

“Even at 17, Dolores was judgmental, prejudiced, and sadistic, although her conscientious attitude, her saccharine manner towards her superiors, and the ruthlessness and stealth with which she took credit for other people’s work soon gained her advancement.”

Talking about at the Ministry. I thought it was important to note her brother was a Squib and her mother was a Muggle. Her father was a Ministry official that she eventually disassociated herself from. He worked at the Department of Magical Maintenance and was essentially a janitor, and she paid him off to disappear/retire early. So this should give you a sense for Dolores. And it’s worth noting that growing up, she, for the most part, did side with her father because her father was of magical blood. Less so with her mother; actually blamed her mother for her brother being a Squib. And at some point, the family split, and Dolores stayed with her father and her brother went off to live with her mother, and I’m assuming they never spoke to each other again.

Eric: I’m assuming they were a lot happier after that split.

Micah: They probably were. But yeah, not a great childhood by any stretch, it seems like, for Dolores. But can see how she became the person that we see in Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Yeah, she’s made advancement her number one goal and the number one mark of her own success and self-worth. Even if she gets those advancements through trickery, she doesn’t see it that way. She doesn’t see it as underhanded; she sees it as doing what she must, so pretty wild. But yeah, ultimately, we leave this part of the chapter behind. Hermione has this righteous anger; she sees exactly what Umbridge is doing here, and why Umbridge is doing it too, because she doesn’t like half-breeds.

Andrew: It’s tough to read watching Umbridge talk to Hagrid slowly, to “make sure he understands” what she is saying. You can understand Hermione’s frustration. I think her frustration is also the reader’s frustration, especially as you get older and read these chapters back.

Laura: Yeah. I will say, it wasn’t the most ringing endorsement, though, for her to basically say, “And that wasn’t even that bad for Hagrid!”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: But I understood what she meant, of course. It was just funny.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. But there’s more to come with Hermione a little later on. The one thing Harry is glad for is that there is, of course, the last Dumbledore’s Army session of the season tonight, which is very exciting, in the Room of Requirement, and it just goes well. It’s a review lesson kind of thing, and I think these are very important, especially… you guys remember. We’re looking forward to break; maybe we’re not all that interested in learning new things.

Andrew: Yeah, you’ve kind of got senior-itis, summer-itis… all you can think about is the summer break, the winter break, graduating… yeah, you’re kind of checked out.

Eric: Yeah, so they kind of do a greatest hits of what they’ve learned so far, and I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with that. In fact, Neville keeps getting better; Harry really sees some marked improvement. Everyone is in good spirits. The Room of Requirement was decorated when Harry walked in, but he fixed it, and so it’s a little less decorated. He took down all the baubles…

Micah: Shout-out to Dobby.

Eric: Yeah, shout-out to Dobby for that. He took down all the baubles with his face on it, apparently that say “Have a Harry Christmas,” which I think is hilarious.

Andrew: I think it’s hilarious too. I’m surprised that didn’t really stick within fandom. Why isn’t there merch that says “Have a Very Harry Christmas” or something? I think that’s so cute. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I don’t know.

Laura: Because they didn’t do it in the movie. If they had done it in the movie, there would have been merch.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Andrew: So you’re saying that we should definitely Max that so we can get some merch.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Andrew: I wonder if it’s in the… if any Etsy creators have done that.

Micah: And Luna was a fan, too, right? She shows up.

Eric: Luna did. Yeah, Luna was the first to arrive, which is very lovely.

Andrew: [imitating Luna] “Nargles.”

Eric: But yeah, so I wanted to talk about the end of this lesson, of course, when there’s a little bit of romance going on. Harry ultimately has his first kiss.

Andrew: Hold on; let me go put on some chapstick for this big moment.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’ll take a quick break, and we’ll be right back.

Eric: Oh, is it time for your first kiss as well, Andrew?

Andrew: Yes, live on MuggleCast! 20 years into the show.

Eric: We have to drive you to a… take you to a parking garage for your first kiss.

Andrew: Wait, why are you saying parking garage?

Eric: I’m just saying parking garage. Isn’t that where you had your first kiss?

Andrew: Yeah, I’m weirded out you remember that. [laughs]

Micah: Eric was there.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Jesus, what else does Eric know about it?

Eric: We talk about this on the last episode in which this came up.

Andrew: Ohh, okay. I was like, “Geez.” Little update on “Have a Very Harry Christmas” merch on Etsy: There is “Have a Very Harry Christmas” merch on Etsy, but it’s all Harry Styles-related, not Harry Potter.

Eric and Laura: Ohh.

Micah: We gotta change that.

Eric: See, that shows how long they waited, the fact that Harry Styles was first born and then rose to prominence…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … in that whole inter-waiting time before and nobody got on the Harry train when it was Harry Potter. So here’s a quote from the chapter:

“Ron and Hermione left before he did; he hung back a little, because Cho was still there and he was hoping to receive a Merry Christmas from her.

‘No, you go on,’ he heard her say to her friend Marietta, and his heart gave a jolt that seemed to take it into the region of his Adam’s apple.

He turned and saw Cho standing in the middle of the room, tears pouring down her face.

‘Wha-?’

He didn’t know what to do. She was simply standing there, crying silently.

‘What’s up?’ he said feebly.

She shook her head and wiped her eyes on her sleeve. ‘I’m – sorry,’ she said thickly. ‘I suppose… it’s just… learning all this stuff… It just makes me… wonder whether… if he’d known it all… he’d still be alive…’

Harry’s heart sank right back past its usual spot and settled somewhere around his navel. He ought to have known. She wanted to talk about Cedric.”

Eric: Uh, yeah. So this doesn’t quite go as planned for Harry. Let’s pour one out for Harry’s would-be romantic time in the ROR.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I mean, I don’t know what he’s thinking. Her boyfriend just died six months ago.

Eric: So this is clear to you, like what Hermione says later. This makes perfect sense…

Laura: Oh, 100%.

Eric: … for Cho to be in the emotional state that she’s in.

Laura: Completely. Is it right that she’s putting Harry on the spot in the way that she is? No, but Cho is also a child who is struggling with severe trauma here, so neither one of them is really equipped to deal with this.

Eric: Okay. Yeah, I honestly think that that’s fair. The funny thing about this – and at this point reading this, I just find it really amusing because we’re going to get to this later – but all first kiss stories, or quite a lot of them, are probably a little embarrassing to look back on, or a little unexpected, or they have a surprise element. And so in that way, Harry Potter’s first kiss actually greatly tracks with, I think, the real world counterparts that some of us may have experienced. And for that reason, reading this, I just have to laugh. There’s this line: “She hiccuped again. She was very pretty even when her eyes were red and puffy.” [laughs] It just… and Harry can count all the tears on her cheeks as she moves closer, and it’s just like, “Man, this is not it.”

Laura: No. First kiss stories are always awkward and fumbling because you don’t know what you’re doing; nobody knows what they’re doing, but I think Hollywood and culture kind of builds that moment up, so it puts a lot of pressure on it, and I think that probably contributes to making it awkward.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big moment in your life, though. I mean, you are getting…

Laura: Up until that point, right?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: I guess.

Eric: Well, what would we do? Okay, if we were Harry, could we rightly say in this scene that we would know any better or do anything different than what he does? I think later he says he pats her on the back.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, it would have been better to give her a hug, but I get it. It’s awkward.

Andrew: So let’s just be clear about something here: Who actually made the move?

Micah: That’s what I was going to ask.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Because it ends with “She was much too close. He could see every tear clinging to her eyelashes…” Dot, dot, dot.

Eric: [laughs] See, this is hilarious. This is really…

Andrew: Then “He returned to the common room half an hour later.”

Eric: It’s not Harry. Harry does not make the move, because he wishes he weren’t there.

Andrew: Right, that’s why I’m thinking it was Cho, too, and the emotions were getting to her. I mean, and she is the one that says to Harry, “I really like you, Harry,” so she is kind of making the first move in that way too. So if Cho were getting closer to me while crying, I think I would take a step back or not give her too much time to kiss me, because I’d be like, “Wait, what’s happening here?” It’d be one thing if she wasn’t crying, but she is. I don’t want my first kiss to have tears in between our lips.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I mean, body language would help. But also, Harry does make for the door, and Cho kind of stops him and is like, “Don’t go, wait, I’ll be better.” But she has nothing to be ashamed of here, is the thing. Her emotions are valid, but it doesn’t make for, ultimately, a good… they just… to take Laura’s perspective, too, I think they both don’t have the maturity to really navigate the breadth of what they’re both feeling for one another. I think Cho might feel like socially she has to do this. I mean, it’s under the mistletoe; there’s kind of an obligation.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Or she wants… I mean, it’s like double dog dare and mistletoe, you don’t ignore them. You just can’t do it.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I don’t know if I’d go that far.

Laura: Well, the thing is I think they want to kiss each other; I just think not under these particular circumstances. But I think Cho is happy for any reason to make a move.

Eric: I mean, if it doesn’t happen now, when will it happen? I think is the question.

Micah: Eventually. Well, with mistletoe, too, let’s not forget when Harry first comes into the room, there’s mistletoe that Luna points out, and he ducks out of the way because he doesn’t want to potentially engage in that situation with her. So that’s what leads me to believe that in this instant, there’s definitely a desire on the part of both of them for this to happen; it’s just the circumstances that are not quite right here.

Andrew: And it’s the best opportunity for them so far. There’s feelings in between them right now, they’re alone, it’s Christmas, mistletoe, Santa’s coming…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Nick Frost?!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Despite the tears, they are feeling the romance right now.

Laura: Yeah. And they’re getting ready to go on holiday break, too, so they’re not going to see each other for a month.

Micah: Yeah, Harry is getting ready to take a bite out of Mr. Weasley.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: He’s got to prep. He’s got to get his chapstick.

Micah: That’s what this was. This was prep for what’s about to happen.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: This was prep, yeah.

Laura: This was practice?

Eric: Man.

Andrew: Did Mr. Weasley cry too when he was bit?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I guess!

Andrew: Harry makes all the boys and girls cry. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, so I just… we talked about this; we’ll talk about it again. I think real life can be this messy. But back at the common room – and this is where Hermione shines – Harry is almost catatonic. Harry is back with his friends; he’s not sure if he wants to tell them what even happened, but Hermione just had another perception about this. She, I think, guessed that something like this might happen, and she actually knows a lot about Cho’s current mental state, and even to the degree where one of the things she tells them is that Cho is worried she’s going to get thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she’s flying poorly. How would Hermione possibly know that much detail about Cho? But it’s all there. Hermione leads the charge in explaining what’s going on, because Harry and Ron just don’t get it.

Andrew: Well, I was going to ask, does Hermione know for sure because she’s heard through the grapevine? Or maybe she’s heard Cho talk about it herself? I don’t think she’s making a lot of assumptions here, necessarily.

Eric: Right.

Laura: No, I think that she’s reporting accurately on what’s going on. She mentions that Cho is crying a lot in the loo between classes, so there’s just a lot of common areas where Hermione could very likely overhear some of that happening. And Hermione, we know that she’s someone who pays attention, especially when it has to do with her friends, and she knows that Harry likes Cho, so she’s paying attention to what’s going on with Cho. We know that she’s been paying attention to how much Cho has been paying attention to Harry, so she’s been making a point of it. I think she’s just been being observant.

Eric: Yeah. Ron is here kind of as comedic relief. When Harry first admits that Cho was crying, Ron says, “Were you that bad of a kisser?” That’s kind of funny.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I was also impressed by how quickly Ron and Hermione know that something is up with Harry. They can see there’s something different with him going on, and Harry internally, he’s kind of freaking out himself, so it’s probably coming across in his body language. But I think it speaks to the deep friendship at this stage of the series that Ron and Hermione can quickly pick up that something is off with him.

Micah: I agree.

Eric: Also, they fear the worst. They think maybe Umbridge said something, or something…

Andrew: Yeah, I think they probably are always on their guard when it comes to Harry, given his dreams and all that, so… comes with being a friend of Harry, to keep a close eye on him.

Micah: The one thing I’ll say, though, is I do think it’s somewhat unique that Harry is able to get these two differing perspectives, because – and maybe this is just my own experience – but being 15 years old and having a good close friend that is of the opposite sex, and is giving you this level of detail and this level of analysis about what’s going on, just doesn’t seem all that common. It would seem much more almost normal to me to get the response that Ron gives in this situation, and that’s the kind of feedback that you’d probably get over the course of the next couple of days as you were talking about your experience. So I don’t know if anybody feels similarly, but I do think it’s interesting that Harry gets, really, this kind of full range of feedback from two very different individuals.

Eric: It’s the keys to the kingdom. I think you’re right, it’s rare, but that shows what a rare friend Hermione is.

Laura: Definitely.

Micah: I’m not saying it’s bad; I’m just saying it’s different.

Eric: Yeah, that’s an interesting point. Well, I wonder if the impetus in writing this really was to have, ultimately, Hermione weigh in on it. That was the idea, that in order to tell the story of what’s really going on with Harry and Cho, you need Hermione to kind of deliver that, because Cho is not going to be – or Harry is not going to be – emotionally mature enough to explain it. They need a third party in Hermione, who’s interested to explain what’s going on and what the circumstances are surrounding all of these characters’ emotional state currently.

Micah: And for Cho, she really needs to have somebody supporting her that’s an adult here, and that’s just not the case. It’s clear that she’s still very much dealing with the trauma of what happened at the end of the fourth year, and she’s not getting the support that she needs.

Eric: No shade to her Head of House, but Flitwick might have taken her aside at the beginning of the year and said, like, “Let’s practice Cheering Charms after hours,” the kind of special lessons that would ultimately improve Cho’s specifically mental state, because this thing that happened to Cedric affected her the most. Teachers should be taking these students aside and making sure that they’re all right in ways that their own peers couldn’t.

Andrew: In fairness to the faculty at Hogwarts, I’ll also add where are Cho’s parents? What are they doing about this?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I was just wondering what was her summer like? Because just like everyone else, she had to go home after that whole ordeal, knowing very little about what happened and only having heard Dumbledore’s take before she got spoon fed lies from the Ministry all summer just like everyone else.

Eric: Really the only other thing of note here is that Ron… unfortunately, things turn sour between Ron and Hermione. Specifically, he finds out that she, this whole time, has been writing a letter to Viktor, and he’s like, “You’re writing to Viktor? Which Viktor?” And she’s like, “How many Viktors do we know? Viktor Krum.”

Andrew: [laughs] “The hot one? The one I have a crush on? You jealous?”

Eric: Yeah, is this…? So Ron takes it awfully. And I think he’s had a year now, almost a year exactly, to cool off from the whole Yule Ball thing. But ultimately, he’s still threatened by Hermione writing to Viktor, and it’s not a good look on him. You hate to read it.

Andrew: You hate to read it.

Laura: He’s jealous, and he’s also clearly surprised that she’s still in touch with him. I think learning that she’s still in touch with him, the fact that she’s only half-engaged in their conversation because she’s writing this very lengthy letter to him right in front of Ron, who very clearly would love to get that kind of attention from Hermione… he’s just jealous.

Micah: And it’s happening within the context of the conversation about Harry and Cho.

Laura: Yeah, and Hermione is aggravated because within the context of this romantic conversation, Ron is putting on full display a complete lack of empathy and emotional maturity that you would want to see in someone who you fancy.

Eric: Oh yeah, he’s making it worse for his own prospects here by not… but yeah.

Micah: Part of me still thinks that he doesn’t like her from the year prior. Maybe it’s just me, but I just don’t think… Ron looks back to how Harry was treated by her in year four, and I think that that’s still part of all of this, as Harry’s best friend.

Eric: Hermione treats Harry poorly in year four?

Laura: Oh, you mean Cho?

Micah: Cho.

Eric: Oh, Cho.

Andrew: Ohhh.

Eric: Yeah, possibly. Although that’s not really anybody’s fault either, because – and this may be a movie-ism – but when Harry asks Cho, she’s apologetic about the whole thing. Cedric asked her first.

Laura: Yeah, that’s in the book too.

Micah: But Ron probably doesn’t see it that way.

Eric: Yeah, well, Ron knows what Quidditch team Cho prefers.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: It’s just a whole thing.

Micah: They got beef.

Eric: I will say, it’s funny to see reality distorted a little bit in dreams. I think that this is… because we have that huge gap when the kiss actually happens, and my gosh, Rowling does this with Harry and Ginny right after they kiss; there’s a huge gap, and you don’t see what’s going on. But the insight into Harry’s mind might be most clear through his dream. In the dream that Harry has tonight in Gryffindor dormitory, Cho says Harry promised to give her 150 Chocolate Frog Cards for her showing up there, and Harry is freaking out because it’s more than he can give. It’s more than he has. I’m thinking that Harry is starting to think that this is more transactional in nature, that he owes Chose something that is… the “too much Chocolate Frog Cards that I can’t afford to give you” are things that he doesn’t have enough of, whether it’s romance or… is there something to this? Laura, what do you think?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, at first I was just going to needle you a little bit and be like, “What, Meg doesn’t require that you give her 150 Chocolate Frog Cards?” That just…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: 250.

Eric: Actually, she requires 150 nature memes every time I kiss her.

Laura: Aww.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. It’s really rough. I’m subscribed to all the groups, like Zoological Memes for Ecological Fiends… I’m in all the Facebook groups.

Laura: [laughs] That’s really cute.

Andrew: I do think maybe after this first kiss, Harry might be second doubting, second thinking this potential relationship or the kiss. Like, “Is this too good to be true? I can’t believe this is happening to me,” and maybe that’s why he’s having these transactional type of dreams. Like, “What more can I do for Cho? What do I owe her?” That type of thing.

Laura: He’s building it up way too much. Hermione literally just suggested to him, “Hey, when are you going to ask to take her out on a date?” Right? That’s the obvious next step if they want to continue seeing each other in this way. But it’s very clear – much like Hagrid, actually – he has not really thought ahead about what he would do if Cho were to reciprocate his feelings. So now he’s kind of like, “Uh, what do I do?” And this is manifesting in his dream through these really outlandish representations of Cho demanding things from him.

Eric: I like that a lot. That’s really… and in that way, Harry underprepared.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, he’s 15. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, but if you fantasize about something, you would think you’d prepare a little bit better for it, right?

Laura: I mean, I don’t know. I just think back to being… I think back to having my first kiss and what that experience was like, and there’s really no preparing for it, not really.

Eric: Fair enough. We’re going to… I can’t wait to ask you guys what your first kiss was about, which is coming.

Laura: [laughs] Oh, okay.

Eric: But then there’s one other dream Harry has – I debated whether we should cover it on this chapter discussion – something about a snake and some man. He’s a little tired.

Andrew: [laughs] Some man.

Eric: Some man. Just some guy. Ron’s dad, I guess. Yeah, apparently Harry bites Ron’s dad or something.

Laura: The way that Harry presents the happenings of the dream, you can tell he’s, in real time, trying to get grips on the fact that he was the snake in the dream.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: He’s trying to be truthful, but at the same time, Dean and Seamus are standing right there, and they already kind of think he’s crazy, so he’s like, “I bit… no, uh, the snake bit him.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, but the more he does that, the less realistic it sounds like it really happened.

Laura: Right.

Eric: It’s a perfect catch-22.

Andrew: What really struck me about the end of the chapter, though, in this scene is that McGonagall does come in and immediately believes what Harry is saying, and that is so refreshing. After Harry has been ignored by Dumbledore, after students at Hogwarts aren’t too sure of Harry’s story, here is somebody who immediately believes him and is going to take action on this information.

Eric: McGonagall has seen some crazy shh in her time, and this sounds like that brand of crazy.

Andrew: I loved that self-censor I think I just heard.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Oh, yes, you did. It was a self-censor.

Micah: And we would believe, though, that she would know who is on guard duty.

Eric: That’s the other element.

Micah: And this is also another Horcrux connection that we’re privy to in Order of the Phoenix. Obviously, we don’t find out about Horcruxes until the next book, but the whole idea that Harry could literally be inside of Nagini as she’s attacking Arthur… man, I mean, talk about going from one crazy dream to the next. I mean, you were just having to give away 150 Chocolate Frog Cards…

Eric: It’s a lot.

Micah: … now you’re inside of the head of a venomous snake attacking your best friend’s dad. What kind of lipstick did Cho have on?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, or what did you eat at dinner that made you…? Well, there’s this psychic transference, too, because Harry is retching this whole time too. So Nagini had a feast and Harry is throwing up. That’s crazy. That’s a really crazy, scary, awful – but kind of cool, from a connection standpoint – physiological effect of the Horcrux connection.

Micah: McGonagall… it’s just about time that somebody went to an authority figure for Harry. It’s Neville, right? Neville is the one who goes to get McGonagall.

Eric: Yeah, Neville gets McGonagall.

Micah: But we’ve been talking about needing to go to Dumbledore, needing to go to McGonagall, at multiple junctures of this book so far, and Harry just consistently refuses, refuses, refuses. And now finally, he’s going to come face to face with Dumbledore for the first time since the summer.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Ooh, what’s up? Long time, no see, my guy.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Is this going to be a huge confrontation? “In the left corner…” I can’t wait for this next chapter, but we’re not going to be getting to it next week. We have other things coming our way.

Andrew: Next week is our 700th episode, so it’ll be a Muggle Mail episode, and we might have a guest on.

Eric: A particular email just came into our inbox moments ago.

Andrew: Right. Oh, were you all CC’ed on that? Good, so I don’t have to… I forgot. [laughs]

Eric: So anyway… inside baseball.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: It’s baseball season, as you can see.

Eric: Yay. Opening day for the Sox, I think, was today.

Micah: And the Mets.

Eric: Oh, that’s why you’re wearing the pinstripes.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a Mets jersey, not a Yankees jersey. You don’t get to see but the top.

Eric: Oh, okay.


Superlative of the Week


Eric: So wrapping up the chapter discussion, what is, guys, the best jab between Ron and Hermione in this chapter? They kind of go at it.

Andrew: When Hermione says to Ron, “You are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.” [laughs]

Micah: That’s rough.

Eric: That’s pretty brutal, but not untrue. When she sasses Ron, “How many other Viktors do we know?” I really like that.

Micah: Had to stick up for my guy Ron, when he says, “You’d think a bit of kissing would cheer her up.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And I had to give it to Hermione, not for a statement – y’all actually got all the best jabs, I think – but really for Hermione’s open disdain and disgust for Ron throughout this conversation. It’s so… that energy is palpable in the way this is written, and I remember… every time I read this, I so resonate with her, because I’m like, “Girl, I’ve been there,” where I’m having a conversation with one or more people who are maybe a little bit emotionally obtuse, and I’m just trying to lead the horse to water, and it can be very frustrating. So yeah, Hermione, I feel you.

Eric: Yeah, anyone who’s ever had to do emotional labor because of some dumb boy, thank you for your service.

Laura: [laughs] Not all heroes were capes.

Eric: Yeah, exactly.


Lynx Line


Eric: So we asked… and I think that we’re going to be getting to whoever’s willing can tell the story of their first kiss. But first, let’s hear from our Lynx Line members, people who are on our Patreon and were asked this question: This chapter, Harry has his first kiss. Does not exactly go as he planned. Do you have a particularly awkward or disastrous first kiss story? Or one that, looking back on, you still feel kind of odd about? And here were the answers people gave.

Andrew: Kayla B. said,

“Yes, I will consider it pretty bad. My first kiss was with a guy I regret dating at the time, but I was a young teenager and didn’t know much about dating. Our first kiss was a French kiss, and it grosses me out to this day.”

Laura: Ooh, yeah, that’s not good if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Andrew: That would be with tongue, I guess? Is that a French kiss?

Laura: Yep.

Eric: We heard from Shannon, who was very brief in her reply: “Middle school. We both had braces. Enough said.”

Micah: Oh no.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m just picturing… guys, I’m picturing the rubber bands from one brace get caught on another…

Andrew: Ew!

Eric: Oh, oh, oh.

Andrew: Stop.

Eric: It’s too devastating to think about for any longer.

Micah: Robert P. says,

“The first time I kissed my now husband, he dropped me off at my house and I planted a very drunk kiss on him. He would later tell me the kiss was ‘so bad he had to ensure that another one happened.'”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Aww.

Eric: That’s dedication.

Andrew: Sure. I think it was good; he just wanted more. But that’s a good way to get somebody to kiss you again.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “Hey, can we redo that?” That’s what Cho should have said to Harry, or Harry should have said to Cho.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Oh yeah, like, “Can I get a redo?”

Andrew: “Can I get a redo on the first kiss? No tears? Side of perfume?”

Micah: Tears of joy. Tears of happiness.

Laura: Stephanie says,

“I was working at a country club the summer before college, and met a very hunky Bulgarian who was working there for the summer as well. He kissed me at the end of the summer, it was all tongue, and I freaked out and ran off, and we never talked again.”

Eric: [laughs] I’m only laughing because of the “freaked out and ran off.” I thought Bulgarians only happened in fiction.

Micah: Was his name Viktor?

Andrew: Yeah, what?

Laura: Yeah, I know.

Andrew: That’s too perfect for a Harry Potter podcast.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: Rachel S. said,

“I was on a second date with a guy and he kissed me. I hadn’t been expecting it and wasn’t sure I wanted him kissing me, and sort of just stood there. After he pulled away, he told me I was a great kisser. Sir, I literally did nothing. We didn’t have any more dates.”

Eric: Yeah, kisses when they’re not expected, compliments when they’re not due… these are some of the easy things to get wrong when you’re young. Barry says,

“I had no idea how to make out, but as a kid, I had read in Hulk Hogan’s autobiography…”

Micah: Jesus.

Eric: Where is this going?

” … Hulk Hogan’s autobiography that people were supposed to use tongue.”

With that handlebar mustache? Okay.

“Needless to say, my first kiss was a bit surprised, and said, ‘You use a lot of tongue.’ I then confessed my ignorance and inexperience, and she said the amazing words, ‘That’s okay; I’ll teach you.'”

Andrew and Laura: Aww!

Eric: Talk about a happy development.

[Andrew giggles]

Eric: That’s adorable, Andrew. We need that as a saved, canned sound effect. That’s really cute.

Micah: Stephanie says,

“My first kiss with a guy I dated in high school was awful. He used tongue and was so slobbery. When I mentioned it (in the nicest way I could), he gaslighted me into thinking I was a bad kisser. My subsequent kisses later in life with other men were nothing like that, so clearly, it was on him.”

Eric: That’s empirical evidence for sure. Also, Barry commented on this quote.

Micah: Yeah, Barry chimed in.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Barry chimes in and said despite his story, he was not this guy in Stephanie N.’s story, and Stephanie also confirmed that, so glad for that.

Laura: Yeah, thank you for confirming. Charlotte says,

“My first kiss was horrific… I still cringe. It was outside a movie theater. I was anticipating something gentle, but his ‘technique’ was so tongue and slobber centric that I had to wipe my face after.”

Ewww!

“All I remember is tongue. I thought to myself, ‘No WAY that’s what that’s supposed to be like.’ As if that isn’t bad enough, he was wearing full-length working man overalls, even though he is a city boy with a desk job. (No hate to overalls under more appropriate circumstances.)”

Andrew: Maybe he wanted to be comfortable for the movie.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Finally, Carlee said,

“My husband and I were hiking the Appalachian Trail with a group from the camp where we worked. We were snuggled up for warmth in a trail shelter overnight, and we ended up kissing for the first time. I got freaked out by the feelings, so the next day I said something like, ‘Okay, first of all: Don’t touch me.’ Needless to say, he was startled and confused, but it all worked out in the end, I just needed time to figure things out. We’ve been married almost as long as MuggleCast has existed: 18 years in September!”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Aww!

Andrew: Happy anniversary, Carlee, coming up.

Eric: Yeah, congratulations.

Laura: After all this time.

Micah: Always.

Eric: I think the biggest takeaways here are don’t do too much too soon? Start with a peck, maybe?

Andrew: And a lot less tongue.

Micah: A lot of French kissing. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, a lot of tongue stories.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So listen, I understand we have a few teenagers who listen to this podcast, we know.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh boy.

Eric: A couple of 12/13-year-olds who might have their first kiss sometime within the next three or four years, and let’s just say take note.

Andrew: In terms of our own stories, Eric, you said I shared on the previous episode, but I guess I will say that was my first guy kiss. My first girl kiss was in middle school with my girlfriend of a week, Kendall. Literally just a week we were boyfriend and girlfriend. I can’t remember the situation, why we got together or broke up…

Micah: It was her fault.

Andrew: But she had braces. I never did; my parents didn’t love me enough to give me braces.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, no.

Andrew: But she had braces. Yeah, it wasn’t a great first kiss, but when are they? There were no tears, though, so at least there was that.

Laura: Got that going.

Eric: Yeah, there were no tears during mine. It was actually pitch black. It was at a girl’s house; I was staying over with her parents. We met through Harry Potter.

[Andrew giggles]

Eric: And it was just late after night. We had already said goodnight, but we came back out to, I guess, say goodnight again, and a kiss happened, and then we kind of just smiled and went back to bed. Now, the only thing that was awkward about this is we never had a conversation afterwards about what that kiss meant.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Oh no!

Eric: So it was nice and it was nice in the moment, but we both never followed up on it, so I don’t know. That’s the weird part. It’s childhood, and… I don’t know. These things happen.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and after a certain amount of time passes, too, you’re like, “I don’t even remember anyway,” kind of like what Andrew was talking about. Mine was with my middle school boyfriend. I was 13, and we were preparing for an end of the school year party at my parents’ house, and it just kind of happened while we were preparing the basement for all of our friends to come over for the party. And I mean, I don’t really remember whether it was… I don’t have strong impressions of it. I didn’t walk away from it being like, “Oh, that was amazing,” or, “Oh, that was weird.” It just was a first kiss.

Eric: You’re one of the lucky ones, Laura.

Laura: Yeah, from hearing all these stories today, I agree.

Eric: And Micah, maybe it’ll happen someday for you.

Micah: Well, it did in a parking garage, right, Andrew?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, oh, I see.

Andrew: Yeah, and that was Micah giggling earlier, by the way. He was thinking about our first… no, Micah, we’re not letting you off the hook. First kiss, go.

Micah: So it was definitely in high school. One of my friends was driving myself and this girl, Crystal, back to her house; she didn’t live in our town here on Long Island. And yeah, it just kind of happened. Basically made out in the backseat of his car as he was chauffeuring her back home. [laughs]

Eric: That’s cool.

Andrew: Do you remember the song that was playing?

Micah: I don’t.

Andrew: [singing] “I believe in the thing called love…”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It was some ’90s…

Andrew: [singing] “I would do anything for love…”

Micah: By Meatloaf?

Laura: Being a teenager is so awkward, y’all.

Eric: It really is.

Laura: It really, really is.

Eric: There’s a few moments on this show – this chapter being one of them – in which we can appreciate just how awkward and weird it can get. Anyway, don’t forget that you, too, listener, can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And if you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded to your phone or on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Our next Muggle Mail episode is upon us! It’s going to be next week, Episode 700, the mailbag spectacular and celebrating 20 years and 700 episodes of Harry Potter podcasting.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Before we get to Quizzitch, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us, plus Pam. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam, Eric, and I are reviewing Sunrise on the Reaping, the new Hunger Games spinoff book. It was really good.

Eric: Awesome.

Andrew: We analyzed and covered the entire book in an hour. It was a fast-paced, excellent conversation. So don’t miss that after you read Sunrise on the Reaping yourself.

Micah: And Andrew, can I add one thing too? Laura and I have been doing reaction videos over on the What the Hype?! YouTube channel and Twitch for the latest episodes of The White Lotus, so as soon as those episodes are over, Laura and I are sitting down and reacting, and it’s been a lot of fun.

Laura: It really has.

Andrew: Speaking of kissing…

Eric: I’m trying to catch up, guys. I just finished Season 2 finale. Season 2 finale was a doozy, so I’m getting on Season 3 ASAP.

Laura: Perfect.

Andrew: And over on Millennial, we are sharing how everyday Muggles are using ChatGBT and other fascinating AI tools to improve their lives. Wanted to hear how our listeners are using these tools.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: In the English fairytale Jack and the Beanstalk, Jack, who later meets a husband and wife that are giants, trades what to obtain a handful of magic beans? The correct answer that we were looking for was the family cow. And it turns out we were not looking for the answer “a friggin’ cow,” which somebody suggested, but I counted it because that’s kind of funny.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: 86% of people who answered correctly said they didn’t look it up, and this week’s winners are as follows: A Healthy Breeze; Buff Daddy; Collides Nomen; Carlee; DFTBA; Granger? I hardly know her!; Hagrid’s dragon steak dinner; Hermione’s bushy, bushy hair; “I’m counting down the days to the end of Lent, when I can listen again and find out if you read my name” – again, put your name – Kennah Dawn; Lestranger Things; Levioooooooosa; Low-key just did a play about this; LydiaLovesMC; MilyWhite; Moo cow, don’t bother me; Patronus Seeker; Portkey Me to Carmel by the Sea; Ravenpuff from Sweden; SuperRavenclaw; The bagpipes that play at the Quidditch World Cup; There are giants in the sky; Tofu Tom; and Umbridge’s Minus Aura. Wow, lot of entries. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: Capable of reaching a length of roughly 19 feet and weighing around 28 pounds, what is the largest known venomous snake species in the world?

Micah: Oooh. There might’ve been a movie about it, right?

Eric: Maybe.

Micah: With an actor who was in Fantastic Beasts.

Eric: “Venomous” is the key to that correct answer, by the way.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Laura: Ah, all right.

Eric: Venomous. Largest venomous snake species. So submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website checking out transcripts or must listens page or something else over there, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Don’t forget to visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to support us. Also, please leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and owl a friend about the show if you think your Harry Potter friends could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #698

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #698, Gurg Wars (OOTP Chapter 20, Hagrid’s Tale)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I am your head Gurg, Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m the littler Gurg, Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I don’t mess with Gurgs. I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I think I need to bring a little kid in here to tell Andrew that he’s not the real Gurg. I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’re your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, movies, and forthcoming TV show, so make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And on this week’s episode, get out your dragon steak to soothe your wounds, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 20, “Hagrid’s Tale.” Before we dive into this week’s chapter, Micah and Eric, you two were hanging out last week.

Eric: That’s right, in Chicago. Micah came to witness the St. Patty’s Day festivities, namely the Chicago River dyeing, but we took some of the time we had and decided to play the old Sorcerer’s Stone trivia game together.

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: Yes, as part of a bonus MuggleCast, which will be live on Patreon this week. So if you’re subscribed to us on Patreon, definitely check out that bonus MuggleCast. We do try and do fun things whenever we’re together in person, and in general do bonus MuggleCast twice a month.

Andrew: So is this Sorcerer’s Stone movie trivia? Book trivia? What was the…?

Eric: This is book, yes; it was produced before the first movie came out, so it’s copyright 2000. And it’s sort of like a Trivial Pursuit style board; there’s five different categories, and we in the video cover, like, 55 questions. It’s Meg, Micah, and me.

Micah: But let’s be fair and real and honest here: Meg got most of them right.

Eric: We got creamed. We absolutely got creamed.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But it was multiple choice, and you have the option of using that or not. But it’s all on high-def video, which I’m wrapping up now, so that’ll be a lot of fun. Something a little different for a bonus MuggleCast post.

Andrew: I’m looking forward to seeing that, yeah. Every once a while I’m in one of those pop culture memorabilia stores or a used bookstore, and I come across old Harry Potter games, and I’ve thought of buying those from time to time. I need to pick those up. Those are really cool. I’d love to have that.

Eric: Honestly, I got mine at Half Price Books for like, $8.

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: Yeah, there was that one. There was the Mystery at Hogwarts game. There was a couple others.

Andrew: I think I shared with y’all one time I went to a place here that had some sort of Harry Potter toy that also allowed you to bake a Basilisk or something. I can’t remember.

Laura: Oh, yeah!

Andrew: But I do remember on the back it said the expiration date of the food, and it was 15-20 years ago at this point. [laughs]

Eric: Eh, it’d still be good. You just can’t eat it.

Andrew: Well, I was thinking for the Patreon I would eat it, and sacrifice my health for our listeners.

Eric: We need our head Gurg, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I thought you did eat it. I thought you tried some.

Andrew: No, I didn’t buy it. I wish I bought it. I wish I bought it.

Laura: Oh, okay.

Micah: And we thought the Chocolate Frog Cards were bad.

Andrew: Yeah, we’ve encountered some expired Chocolate Frog Cards.

Micah: And Eric, strangely enough, my arm is still bothering me from that game.

Eric: Interesting. Those who watched the full video of the bonus MuggleCast will know that when Micah was in Chicago, he got a tattoo, but not the tattoo that I’ve been trying to get him to get for 15 years now.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: You got a real tattoo?

Micah: You’ll have to watch the video and find out.

Andrew: Okay, so I guess that’s a no.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, I can text you after the show, but for the purposes of encouraging people to tune into bonus MuggleCast.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: The other thing I will say, too, is that it just proves how tough playing Quizzitch is.

Eric: Right.

Micah: When you do board game trivia like that. It’s easy to sit in the host seat and ask the questions, but when you’re the one who has to answer… and man, I messed up some questions that I really should have known the answer to.

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: It’s a 300 page book and there are thousands of questions.

Andrew: It looks like, Micah, you need to go back and listen to our Chapter by Chapter episodes on Sorcerer’s Stone, and maybe you’ll be better prepared next time.

Micah: Perhaps.

Andrew: Well, listeners, as we continue to analyze the books and cover the upcoming Harry Potter TV show, we would really appreciate your financial support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. That’s where you can find those bonus MuggleCast episodes that we’re teasing today. And also by becoming a member of the MuggleCast family, you will get access to ad-free episodes of the show, early access to episodes, a new gift every year, access to our Facebook and Discord groups, our livestreams… all kinds of things, so check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And another great way to help us out is to tell your other Harry Potter friends about the show, and please do leave us a review in your favorite podcasting app. Thanks, everybody. We really appreciate you.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. Once again, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 20, “Hagrid’s Tale.”

Eric: Yes, which we last discussed on Episode 456 of MuggleCast. And to get an idea of how we felt about the chapter five years ago on March 9, 2020, the title of that episode is “A Giant Waste of Time.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 456.

Laura: With the giants, they’re looking at the wizards, and they’re like, “We don’t have any dog in this fight, because y’all have treated us like crap the entire time.”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: But then maybe Voldemort comes up and starts giving them really lavish gifts, or maybe he starts making promises to them and really taking advantage of their place in this society to make them feel like they might get something special out of the arrangement, which they clearly don’t. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, something special. Yeah. Well, maybe Voldemort promised he’s going to clear their student loan debt, and they just fell in love with that idea.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: Or cure their COVID. This episode came out March 9, 2020; I feel like I can hear the COVID in my voice. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Laura: I was thinking the same thing! I hear the lockdowns in my voice. This is three weeks into not being able to go anywhere and not feeling like it’s summer camp anymore. I think a lot of people who had to be home for the first week or so, it was kind of novel and exciting…

Andrew: Right.

Laura: … and it got old really, really fast. [laughs]

Eric: It’s okay, guys, soon we discover that we can do Quizzitch Lives, and everything changes.

Andrew and Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: With our audiences, so that totally gives us all a lift.

Laura: Definitely.

Eric: I’ll try not to make it so obviously depressing in future Time-Turner clips.

Andrew: No, no, no. [laughs] It’s all good.

Laura: No, it’s just… honestly, that’s the fun of looking back on these, right, is where we took the discussions before, but also what was going on in the world at the time. Because at the time, we were able to draw connections between these books and what was going on five years ago, and here we are again, still doing the same thing and still getting…

Eric: I’m still waiting for my debt to be forgiven.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, that’s not going to happen. Spoiler alert.

Eric: Oh no.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: But anyway, it’s really interesting to see how over time we’re still getting new things out of these books, and I think I got something new reading this chapter this time, and it was an appreciation for what this chapter does for Hagrid. We actually get a lot of time with Hagrid; we really get to see him navigating a pretty long and challenging conversation, a situation that kind of goes sideways towards the end, and just seeing how he navigates those things isn’t something that we consistently get exposed to. And it honestly reminded me of some things that I really hope the Max series actually depicts, because we didn’t get a lot of stuff like this in the movies, especially not in the later movies.

Andrew: Yeah, I really enjoyed this time with Hagrid because we didn’t get him until now in this book, and as we were talking about a couple of weeks ago, it was a big deal, I remember, seeing his return, not just for the trio, but as a reader, too, because this is somebody who’s had a really close relationship with the trio over the course of the books so far, and to finally have him back was heartwarming.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And this is somebody who’s familiar to us.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: He’s been a constant presence for Harry, and finally somebody, an adult, that Harry can trust and go to, because so far, not so good with Albus Dumbledore.

Eric: Right, for how isolated Harry is feeling, Hagrid is a friend, and it’s just always good to have your friends around you.

Laura: Yeah. Well, the trio are obviously eager to see Hagrid as soon as possible, so they go straight down to the hut under the Invisibility Cloak, and Rubeus ain’t looking too great.

Andrew: No, looking a little green.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, green and bloody and kind of mangled-looking. Green dragon’s blood dripping off of the dragon steak that he has slapped against his brutalized eye.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I mean, it’s quite a visual.

Eric: Well, listen, he was just come down off the mountain. He didn’t have time to get frozen peas at the grocery store, at the Hogsmeade corner store.

Laura: [laughs] Right, but just happened to find one of these dragon steaks. I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that we talked a lot about the dragon steak last time. It just feels like something we would have done.

Andrew: I feel like they should have that steak at the Wizarding World theme parks…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: … and you cut into it, some green blood oozes out.

Micah: It’s true to some extent in our world, also, because some lizards have green blood.

Andrew: Oh, really? I didn’t know.

Laura: Okay, that makes sense.

Micah: Actually, just looking it up briefly, some have blue blood, some have clear blood, green, purple, or black blood.

Andrew: What?!

Laura: Ooh, black blood.

Micah: Not all lizards. Different types of animals, birds, reptiles…

Andrew: Let’s host a dissection class, and we’ll check it out for ourselves.

Laura: Black blood sounds so metal.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Anyway. [laughs]

Micah: Horseshoe crabs have black blood.

Eric: No kidding.

Laura: Oh, wow. Learn something new every day.

Micah: It all has to do with the oxygenation.

Laura: Ah, that makes sense. Okay. Well, it’s funny that we’re having that conversation as we’re talking about Hagrid because I think he would be all about that, and he would want to spend the next 20 minutes talking about horseshoe crabs. But what I really appreciate about Hagrid in this chapter is I feel like we do get to see a slightly different side to him. He has this demeanor from the start, and we know that he cracks pretty quickly, but do we feel like this kind of stark refusal to share any details, dismissing concerns about his physical state, and the way that he fixes each of them with a singular glare from the one eye not covered by the dragon steak… [laughs] This just feels like a different Hagrid. Do we think this sets a different tone for him?

Eric: I think travel was good for him, maybe? He hasn’t yet settled into the comforts of home, i.e. having somebody care for you or care about you or care that you’re back. He’s not used to that. When Hermione is so effusive with it and caring and speculating about his appearance and whether he’s okay, he’s quick to assure her, “Yeah,” but there’s a dark turn in that he not only flat-out tells them, “I’m keeping Dumbledore’s secrets; it’s worth more than my job,” and he intends to stick to that. I know he says that all the time, but you really kind of believe it. And then also he’s keeping a further secret, which we won’t find out yet, and that’s Grawp. And so he is not only keeping Dumbledore’s secrets, but he has his own. He dares to have his own personal secrets. And it’s funny to see him, I don’t know, being so important enough to have this type of secret, because every other secret Hagrid has ever tried to keep from the trio was kind of carelessly dropped, like, “Oops!” [laughs]

Andrew: So I was going to say something similar, that I think he really respects Dumbledore’s ask, and that Dumbledore trusted him with this mission, and he wants to keep things under wraps for as long as possible because of that. It did surprise me how initially committed he was to withholding information, for someone who has been traditionally loose-lipped when it comes to sharing information with the trio. [laughs]

Eric: It’s like, “Hey, you really think you could keep this secret?”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. But on the other hand, he also just got back from a very exhausting, brutal trip, and he’s in no right mind to be sharing info right away. I think for any of us, we know the feeling of getting home after a long travel day – maybe we flew cross country or whatever else – and you get home at night and you’re exhausted. You want to go to bed. You don’t really want to talk to anybody; you want to chill out. Micah knows this; he’s traveling all the time for work. And what cracks me up, though, is how quickly Hagrid is willing to flip once he hears that Harry faced Dementors. Then he’s willing to make a deal. [laughs]

Micah: I’d be interested to see the type of person that Hagrid became when he was on the road with Madame Maxime, and how much that personality differs from the one we see when he interacts with Harry, Ron, and Hermione, because I have to imagine that some of that was still lingering during those initial moments when the trio show up. But then to your point, he does soften. But yeah, if I were in his shoes, I would not want anybody knocking on my door. I would want to have a cup of tea, slap that steak on my face, and go lay down in bed.

Andrew: [laughs] “Slap that steak on my face.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: But it’s just tough for him because he’s literally not home, what does he say, three minutes? And he’s got them knocking, and then Umbridge shows up later. Man can’t even take a snooze before he’s getting interrogated by both of these groups.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. That’s a good call.

Andrew: On Hagrid’s, let’s call it maturity here, LegalizeGillyweed, who is listening live on our Patreon right now, chimes in: “Hagrid fully recognizes they’re in the early stages of another wizarding war. Not sure the trio have that awareness yet.” Yeah, Hagrid knows that the mission he was on was for a very good reason, very serious reasons.

Micah: And if they would have just waited to get him down at the Hog’s Head – we know that Harry, Ron, and Hermione now frequent this establishment…

Eric: Well, they know the way, yeah.

Micah: … he would have probably spilled everything.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I think that Hermione and Harry are going to avoid the Hog’s Head now, since they were overheard.

Micah: It’s probably true.

Laura: Yeah, learned their lesson.

Andrew: To that point, Micah, when I fly cross country, I get home at the end of a long travel day, I am sipping on a glass of gin. I need to cut loose after that long travel day.

Micah: And you deserve it.

Andrew: Thank you.

Eric: Take the day off. I will say, just going back to Hagrid’s mental state when he was traveling, he probably felt free in a way that he never did before. He’s been tasked with responsibility, something that is firmly in his wheelhouse, more than it is anyone else’s wheelhouse. There’s personal stakes involved; there was this quest with his mother that was kind of a lingering thread. Yeah, so that must have been very just good for him, in addition to the face time he got with Madame Maxime.

Andrew: Well, that’s what I was just going to say. The quality time he got with her must have played a role in…

Micah: Hey-o.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, I mean, really, though, because when he’s talking to the trio, he talks very highly of Maxime and how capable she was on this mission with him.

Micah: This is very much an adult interaction for him, where I don’t know how much he actually gets of that, where he’s able to have that kind of one-on-one time with another colleague.

Laura: It’s true.

Micah: It’s always Harry, Ron, Hermione, and all the other students at Hogwarts. You don’t see him hanging out with any other adult friends.

Andrew: No, and definitely not one he has feelings for.

Laura: Right.

Micah: I’m thinking maybe with Slughorn in the next book. Or is that just movie-ism when they’re together?

Micah: The goldfish story is a movie-ism, but I don’t…

Laura: But they do get drunk together.

Micah: They do get drunk.

Andrew: Okay, all right. That’s the other adult friend.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, I mean, Slughorn is using every scrap he can get of Hagrid.

Andrew: True.

Eric: It’s kind of one-sided.

Laura: Yeah, definitely. Well, they’re able to weasel the truth out of him pretty quickly because someone guesses, “Hey, were you with the giants?”

Eric: Hah.

Laura: And Hagrid immediately gets defensive and is like, “How did you know? Who have you been talking to? Who told you?” And they’re just like, “Hagrid, it’s kind of obvious why Dumbledore would have sent you.” And then Hermione chimes in and says, “Yeah, did Madame Maxime go too?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Laura: [laughs] So that’s where we get a lot of the information that Andrew was talking about related to Madame Maxime being a tough lady. Hagrid talks about how she dresses very elegantly, and she seems very high class, but she wasn’t afraid to rough it, so I think that tells us more about her character, too.

Eric: Yeah, and he had to hold her back from attacking some of the Death Eaters. She really wanted to go at ’em, and Hagrid had to be like, “We can’t make a scene.”

Laura: Yeah, yeah. Well, it seems like Hagrid is simultaneously annoyed and proud of the trio for being able to put two and two together here about what he’d been up to, and there is this brief diversion when Hagrid learns that Harry was attacked by Dementors. They’re trying to get the truth out of Hagrid; they’re trying to get more details. He’s holding back. And Harry says, “Tell me about your summer, and I’ll tell you about getting attacked by Dementors,” and Hagrid is just like, “What?”

Andrew: [laughs] “Wha-wha-what?”

Laura: [laughs] But Hagrid does go on pretty quickly after that to confirm their suspicions about envoying with the giants on behalf of Dumbledore this summer. So something interesting that we get here, too, that I think may also factor into Hagrid’s demeanor here being more serious, is that he and Madame Maxime were being tailed by the Ministry pretty much the entire time, and when they reach the giants at a certain point, they’re also contending with having Death Eaters around also trying to get in the good graces of the giants, so Hagrid has had to be on his guard for months.

Eric: Yeah, that can’t have been pleasant. When I was reading this this time, I kept thinking of that scene from the Secrets of Dumbledore movie where Dumbledore has a tail, a Ministry tail that he gets rid of. I think it’s Dumbledore; might be Newt. But anyway, it’s kind of a crazy thing to realize that the work that you’re doing is so important that you’re being… you don’t have your privacy that you normally have.

Laura: Yeah. Do we think Umbridge was specifically responsible for putting a tail on Hagrid and Maxime, or was it just kind of a general Fudge says… all of Dumbledore’s people?

Eric: It sounds like a Fudge thing for me. I think Umbridge is too narrow-minded to do anything other than plot evilly against Harry Potter, the complete center figure in the ire of Cornelius. That’s my impression of it.

Micah: I agree. And if we look back just at the timeline of when Hagrid and Maxime go out on this journey, it’s at the end of Goblet of Fire, so I would lean in the direction of Fudge for this, as opposed to Umbridge. Doesn’t mean that Umbridge, because of her position within the Ministry, wasn’t involved, but it definitely seems like an easy first step on the part of Fudge as they start to really tail all of Dumbledore’s associates.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I’m also just thinking that when Umbridge does confront Hagrid in this chapter, she doesn’t really have any evidence against him specifically about where he’s been, so if she was telling somebody to tail him, I feel like she would have had more information at this point.

Laura: Well, she does, though, because at one point she asks him where he’s been, and she says, “Mountains?” and there’s this moment of panic. So clearly she knows what he’s been up to, whether that’s because she had a tail on him or Cornelius just gave her the intel. Who knows?

Micah: Yeah, and let’s not forget, too, with the Death Eaters, the folks that are tailing Hagrid and Maxime are essentially one in the same because in all likelihood, Macnair is reporting back to Lucius Malfoy, who’s reporting back to Cornelius Fudge.

Laura: Great call out that Macnair was one of the ones tailing them.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: So they’re being watched by multiple parties, but it’s very likely that those parties are sharing information.

Laura: Yeah, totally. And a great connecting the threads moment there, too, with Macnair, since he was the one who was supposed to execute Buckbeak in Prisoner of Azkaban, so he’s hunting Hagrid here. That’s a great call-out.

Eric: Yeah, two severed heads between the Gurg and the hippogriff.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Severed head count.

Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “Severus, please.” I don’t know why that came up.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: This chapter is the most we get to learn about giants in the series, I believe. I don’t remember reading this much about giants anywhere else in the series, apart from when we find out officially that Hagrid is part giant, but that’s really more about his identity. And there is so much rich detail that I really hope the show is going to be able to include. I wish we could have seen this in the movies, because it is so interesting. We learn that there used to be hundreds of tribes of giants around the world, but between being killed by wizards and killing each other, they’ve all nearly died out. There’s a community of 70 to 80 that Hagrid and Maxime visited. They’re 20 to 25 feet tall, and they like magic, just not when it’s used against them. That made me so sad when I read it; I was like, “Oh, man.”

Andrew: Yeah. It was fascinating hearing about the giants because when you do hear about them, and Hagrid is intro-ing all of this, you’re like, “Wow, Hagrid had an impossible mission here.” And it was… what was that last episode? “A Giant Waste of Time.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, yeah. I struggle to think what we’re going to name this episode as a follow-up to beat it, but…

Micah: [growls] Gurg.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Gurg wars. But yeah, you read this chapter on giants and how they live in a huge valley, and they’re among the mountains, hidden, and you think, “Can this be real? Could I scale this cliff and…?” It’s even said you can’t really get up here if you’re just a Muggle, that you need a magic edge to reach that. And it really just reminds me how there are these far reaches of our planet that are just so treacherous or that we will never set foot on, and there’s something comforting in that, actually. It’s exciting and it stretches that sense of wonder, I think.

Andrew: Or people are too naive or too bold and they try, and then they die. See Mount Everest.

Eric: Well, my favorite thing about this chapter is when Hagrid talks about so-called mountaineering accidents.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Those still make the news, and he says, “Yeah, humans do find giants; they just don’t survive them, and then the news puts it down as a mountaineering accident.” So I found that to be… that’s as cool to me as realizing that boggarts are the thing under the bed that we all fear as a kid.

Micah: Given how much the world expanded with Fantastic Beasts, I’m surprised we didn’t meet any giants in that series.

Laura: Right.

Micah: We had three movies, and they never showed up. I don’t even think they were referenced.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess to play devil’s advocate, I’d say maybe they just wanted to focus on introducing us to more whimsical creatures, and some new ones instead of some of the creatures we saw in the Harry Potter series.

Laura: They wanted ones that they could turn into merch and sell easily. [laughs]

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: You could sell a giant.

Andrew: I was going to say… yeah, but giants aren’t very fun or sexy.

Eric: No, they’re not interesting. Also, maybe they felt shame for Grawp, still dedicating screentime to that character in the movies that did no favors to anyone. Maybe.

Laura: Well, a little more on giants that we get in this chapter: Contrary to what Ron thinks, the giants aren’t actually hiding; most wizards just don’t care about them as long as they’re far enough away. And it also kind of seems like the giants aren’t really intended to live in communities quite as large as this, because they’re more independent, and so the closer they live together, the more likely they are to get territorial and kill each other, which is why they really should have more room. But this kind of reminds me how, as societies evolve and new communities come up, there are people and animals on this planet that get displaced because of that, and that’s kind of what this reminds me of. It makes me feel like the giants were displaced, and that’s why they’re here.

Micah: Totally.

Laura: We also learn about the structure of giant society, although we got a preview at the top of the episode.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Really what we learn about their political system is they have a chief that is called a Gurg, and the Gurg needs to be bribed with gifts to consider not ripping visitors in half, so keep that in mind. But like I said, this is just another marginalized community of the wizarding world, and an ideal target for Voldemort because of how on the fringes giants are.

Micah: I think it’s also a commentary on marginalized communities and how oftentimes they are bribed in order for those who are looking to exploit either them or resources that they may possess.

Andrew: Yeah, putting a carrot in front of their face, basically.

Laura: Yeah, totally.

Micah: And they’re certainly being utilized by both sides here as a means to an end. So I wanted to ask the question: Is Dumbledore recruiting them any different than Voldemort recruiting them?

Eric: Ooh, in terms of morality?

Micah: Yeah. I mean, the presumption is that they’re going to fight for either one side or the other, right?

Eric: That’s a great question.

Laura: Yeah. I guess it depends on what Dumbledore intends to do with them. If the intent is for them to fight, that’s one thing. If the intent is to just take them off the board so that they’re not fighting at all, that’s a different thing.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: And post-wizarding war, what does Dumbledore intend to do? Try to make amends with? Try to offer them more space, not be in hiding? I think that would be an important factor as well.

Micah: So you’re saying he’s looking for them to be the Switzerland of the wizarding world.

Andrew: [laughs] I guess, yeah. I just think he needs to be thinking longer, further out than just the war, just using them in the war and then forgetting about them again.

Eric: Yeah, if you can limit the amount of firepower used against you, it seems smart to try and do that. But it is also… I’m impressed with Dumbledore during this chapter. A lot of the information about Hagrid’s own culture, or the giant culture, comes directly from Dumbledore. Hagrid says, “This is what Dumbledore told us to do,” and it works, and it’s just very, very astute. I wonder where Dumbledore learned that giants were this way. I mean, he speaks Mermish. Does he speak giant?

Andrew: Maybe Newt taught him. [emotionally] Maybe Newt taught him.

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Eric: So there is a Newt movie out there with giants.

Andrew: Well, in the Fantastic Beasts book, there is a section on giants, I believe, right? I seem to remember that in the illustrated edition.

Eric: I question whether… because there’s magical beings, then beasts are different, and humanoid creatures or humanoid magic beings are not necessarily fantastic beasts, so I’m not sure.

Andrew: Yeah. Maybe I’m thinking the troll is in the Fantastic Beasts book by Newt.

Eric: And trolls are very similar, too; humanoid, large, low intelligence…

Laura: And the giants would be extremely offended by that.

Andrew: I know. I apologize, giants.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: You can rip my head off if you’re offended.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, we learn that although the giants aren’t 100% convinced that they should sign up for Dumbledore’s cause, we learn that Hagrid and Madame Maxime make decent progress with the tribe’s Gurg, Karkus, by giving him an everlasting flame and a goblin-made battle helmet. Unfortunately for Karkus, he does live up to – or down to his name, depending on how you want to think about it – because one morning, his head is at the bottom of a lake, and now a new sheriff by the name of Golgomath is in town. What a visual.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And so frustrating hearing Hagrid recount this, because they’ve been moving at this slow and steady pace per Dumbledore’s instructions, correct instructions, and then it’s hard to make progress here when this area is just chaotic, these giants are just chaotic. I mean, there’s all this infighting. How can you possibly get ahead here?

Micah: So I’m willing to bet, though, that Maxime and Hagrid giving the everlasting flame and the goblin-made battle helmet to Karkus put his life in danger.

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: Oh, probably.

Eric: I kind of was wondering that too. I’m glad you pointed that out.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Whoopsie! Should have thought that through. Oops.”

Eric: Because you would think that of their minimal base emotions, jealousy has got to be one of them.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Especially since we know they like magic.

Eric: Oh, yeah. They’d be possessive. You would covet the Gurg’s eternal flame. I’m going to play The Bangles tonight when I get off the show.

Laura: [laughs] And we know that Golgomath is big; he’s bigger than Karkus. And I thought we could do a little name origin here. So this is from the HP wiki: “Golgomath’s name is derived from the number ‘googol.’ Its numerical value is a single digit 1 with one hundred zeros afterwards, or 10^100. Obviously, this is a huge number, which is fitting for one of the largest of the giants.”

Eric: Ahh.

Laura: So he is massive.

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Andrew: Whoa!

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Thank you so much.

Andrew: That’s the sound of rolling into the depths of Wikipedia.

Micah: I thought you were going to say that’s the sound of Karkus’s head rolling down to the shore.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: If only it sounded that romantic and smooth.

Laura: So unfortunately for Hagrid and Maxime, Golgomath is not as convinced by the alliance that they’re trying to push, and it becomes fairly obvious that he’s already more receptive to Death Eaters, who we know one of them is Macnair, because they witness them visiting Golgomath during the course of their stay.

Eric: Yeah, and Mev in our Discord, listening live, points out something that I think we have to consider as a possibility, which is that the giants, specifically the second Gurg, may have already been in league with the Death Eaters before the Gurg was killed…

Laura: Oooh.

Eric: … and so they might have actually sparked the challenge and ensured the victor. That’s something that Hagrid wouldn’t tell the trio, not because he’s keeping secrets, which he is, but because he doesn’t know. He wouldn’t have that extra insight.

Laura: Right.

Eric: It feels true that that is probably what happened, even though we don’t get that at all in the text. It’s kind of neat.

Laura: Yeah. Actually, I love that, because effectively, we see them do the same thing at the Ministry, right? They infiltrate and they destabilize it from within. I’m sure that’s what they’re doing here, too, and they were probably nurturing this even before Hagrid and Maxime arrived, I have to think.

Eric: Right. Yeah, they didn’t go straight for the Gurg; they decided to… or once they realized the Gurg wasn’t the tallest or strongest of them all, maybe they were disappointed, and they were like, “This doesn’t fit our core values. We need to find, actually, the meanest one of these guys to recruit.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, they fomented a coup. Of course, the good news is that not all giants are immediate supporters of Golgomath or Voldemort. Hagrid and Madame Maxime do spend multiple days slowly traversing nearby caves in search of giants in exile who are maybe a little more open to hearing about Dumbledore. Unfortunately, these also tend to be the most vulnerable giants that have already had the crap beat out of them by the larger giants and by Golgomath’s thugs, and ultimately, Golgomath has his thugs raid the caves, a bunch of these more vulnerable giants are killed, and the remainder who survive sever ties with Hagrid and Maxime out of self-preservation because they don’t want to die.

Andrew: Yeah. You know, it might have been a giant waste of time, but at least Hagrid and Maxime got in some half-giant bonding time, right? This wasn’t all for nothing.

Eric: There was some level of comfort there at some point.

Andrew: And we were saying earlier, it was helpful for Hagrid to get out and travel a little bit.

Micah: For his mental health.

Andrew: For his mental health!

Eric: Yeah, it’s not the result – which was miserable – it’s the journey.

Andrew: This was Hagrid’s Eat, Pray, Love moment.

Laura: I really… you know what’s so interesting? Is he’s telling this whole story, and he’s completely leaving out the extremely crucial element that he did not come home alone. So I just wonder, how is he talking around Grawp?

Eric: I think it’s easy because I genuinely don’t think Grawp comes up until the very end, where they’re at the cave with the wounded. I think that that is the crucial moment, and so it’s easy to tell this full story. Yes, granted, at some point up till this point was when Hagrid learned about his mom that Hermione asked about, and he’s like, “Oh yeah, by the way, we found this out.” So at that point he would have discovered Grawp. So apart from discovering that Grawp is alive and he has a half-brother, it was pretty easy to lay out, because as soon as Grawp is really in the picture, Olympe leaves him and is like, “You’re on your own.”

Micah: And it’s perfectly reasonable to think that the injuries that he has came from the giants.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, it’s not a lie if he were to say, “Oh, a giant beat the crap out of me.”

Micah: It’s a half lie.

Eric: Half lie for a half-giant

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Before Half-Blood Prince.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Yeah. Well, what does it say about giants that some of them are closed off to new ideas, like Golgomath and his ilk, but others can be more open to them, like the giants that Hagrid and Maxime encountered in the caves? Does this suggest a complexity to giants that they don’t get credit for?

Micah: It’s not that different than house-elves…

Laura: Right.

Micah: … if we’re to make a comparison, because so many of them are closed off to the idea of freedom, but yet we have an example in Dobby, who loves every minute of it. That’s the first thought that came to mind.

Andrew: I guess the takeaway here is they are free thinkers, and they will go their own way if they need to, which is interesting to hear after hearing most of Hagrid’s tale, where it seemed like you had to face just the Gurg and deal with him. But there were others who you could work with as well.

Eric: Yeah, I think that maybe a key point to take out of this is that the giants are not thriving, and had they been allowed to thrive in the space that they required to do so that you would actually get more thinkers or more types of giants that aren’t just going to war with each other and dying young and burning bright. I think you’d get a lot more that were visibly smarter and more accomplished than they’re allowed, but they’ve been kind of huddled into a corner here, and they’re dying out.

Laura: Yeah, they don’t get that luxury. I like that point.

Micah: There’s no Fellowship of the Ring here, right?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Where you have representation from all these different groups. It doesn’t exist in the wizarding world currently. So many of the groups that we talked about are marginalized; it’s not like the giants have a seat at the Wizengamot, the house-elves have a seat at the Wizengamot, the centaurs have a seat…

Andrew: That would have been so cool, though. Big round table.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a potential future opportunity to be more inclusive within the wizarding world.

Andrew: Something Dumbledore maybe could have offered post-wizarding war.

Laura: Yeah. Well, someone just mentioned a few moments ago Hagrid’s mother. Hermione asks Hagrid if there were any signs of his mother there, and Hagrid truly doesn’t seem to have much emotion around reporting that she’s dead. But don’t worry, Hermione, there’s another relative on the way. Well, actually, just out in the Forbidden Forest. Just hang on about six months.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: Is it wrong that I just thought that the “Yo mama” jokes would be so appropriate here?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Which ones specifically?

Micah: “Yo mama so ugly.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: No?

Laura: I mean…

Eric: No, it’s too soon.

Laura: It wouldn’t have… I don’t think it would offend Hagrid, though. He doesn’t seem to have much nice to say about her. He literally is just like, “Eh, she wasn’t a good mother.”

Eric: You know what? Credit to Hermione, though, because even if Umbridge didn’t interrupt this conversation that they’re having – which is very lovely – you give them 20 more minutes to talk, neither Ron nor Harry would have asked Hagrid at all if he heard anything about his mother. They don’t. They don’t make that connection the way that Hermione does.

Micah: “Yo mama so tall”?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: That’s it. And Hagrid would be like, “Yeah, she is.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Can’t argue with that.”

Andrew: “Yes, you’re right, yeah.”

Laura: I thought it was a very interesting contrast to how he talked about his father in the last book, because it’s very clear that he has the emotional connection and investment with his dad, because that’s who raised him. But it is interesting to see the whole mother’s love theme in this story be inverted, wherein the father ends up stepping up and really stepping into the shoes of the qualities that a mother figure would traditionally provide. And I was also thinking that this could be why Hagrid possesses so many stereotypically motherly traits, because he didn’t get them from his own mother in childhood, so he strives to give that comfort and stability to kids who also don’t have both their parents, or to marginalized creatures and people in the world.

Andrew: And that’s an important point because that’s a real thing that happens, where if you don’t get something from your parents that maybe you are yearning for, you then try to replace that or maybe offer it to other people because you didn’t get it. I also think Hagrid is a little blasé about talking about his mother and her dying because, as he brings up in the chapter, it was years ago that she passed, and yes, he’s just finding out about it now, but maybe he assumed there was a good chance that she had died a while ago, so he was kind of prepared for this already.

Laura: Yeah, he also… didn’t he say she left when he was really young?

Andrew: Something like that.

Laura: So I don’t even think he remembers her.

Andrew: Yeah, and he even says… he says that part. “Can’ remember her much. Wasn’ a great mother.”

Eric: Yeah, but I mean, that’s just it. And I think we’ve… I love that we picked up on Hagrid’s own mothering tendencies. And I think that he learned that compassion from his own dad, who also died when Hagrid was very young; I think maybe even 13. So it’s pretty rough, but Hagrid is speaking from a place of, I think, great loneliness, and there’s not a lot more you can say about a parent that essentially abandoned him.

Laura: Yeah. Well, just like every other very interesting conversation that unfolds in this book, we don’t get to get much further before the rapping at Hagrid’s door starts, because Miss Congeniality herself has shown up to confront Hagrid about where he’s been the last couple of months. Is she just watching the grounds and everyone all the time?

Andrew: Get a life, lady.

Laura: Yeah, seriously.

Andrew: What are you, the High Inquisitor?

Eric: She has proximity sensors set up all over the lawn.

Andrew: Ohh.

Eric: I’ve got to say, though, credit where it’s due: Hermione, Harry, and Ron made only half of one attempt to conceal their travels. There are three sets of footprints leading directly to this cabin!

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: This was the frustrating part to me, and I know we were going to get to it in a couple of minutes, but Umbridge is suspicious that people are in the hut because of those footprints. I think she should have done a deeper investigation in this moment, because it’s so obvious that other people are there, and Hagrid has no good excuses for those footprints, because Umbridge points out, “Well, there’s footprints going in, but none going back to the castle.” Come on, they’re caught. She’s got to poke around.

Laura: Yeah, I’m kind of surprised that she didn’t do a Homenum Revelio.

Eric: It’s got to be important magic or something.

Andrew: Or blast some air around out of the wand and blow the Invisibility Cloak off.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, that would work. That would work. No, she has him dead to rights. It’s very precarious.

Micah: I still wonder about that, though, because the cloak is one of the Deathly Hallows, so I’ve always been of the mindset that normal spells don’t work on it.

Eric: Right. But Moody’s eye can see through it…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: There are exceptions.

Eric: … so Moody’s eye can see where death itself can’t.

Andrew: And Umbridge can still wave her arms around like when she was in the fireplace and pull the cloak off. It’s not like she couldn’t touch it.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, she does come close. There’s one close call, but ultimately…

Andrew: Yeah, and Harry says she looks directly at them twice, I believe.

Laura: Yeah, she looks directly at the corner that they’re standing in, so she doesn’t see them, but she is looking around the cabin, and there aren’t that many places for them to hide.

Andrew: Maybe sensing a disturbance in the Force in that corner.

Micah: Do you think she’s at all intimidated by Hagrid, and maybe that’s why she does…?

Andrew: Probably.

Micah: Let’s not forget the state Hagrid is in.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: This is presumably her first meeting with him, and she doesn’t know he’s a big old softie.

Eric: He survived a fight. He looks like he’s just been fighting them.

Micah: Right, he looks like he’s just gone 12 rounds.

Eric: There’s that.

Micah: And there’s Fang, who again, big softie, but she doesn’t know that.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah, she’s very sharp with both of them. Fang tries to bound over to her at one point, and I think she snaps at him and is like, “Get away from me,” so she’s clearly not afraid.

Micah: It’s true.

Laura: Yeah, I think she thinks she has the higher ground here, which is ironic, but it doesn’t help that Hagrid is serving the absolutely worst poker face during this entire interrogation.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: When she’s like, “I saw the three sets of footprints in the snow and none going back,” and he’s like, “Well, I don’t know what that could be.” “I heard voices in here talking to you.” “Oh, I was talking to Fang, and yeah, he talks back. He’s basically human.” “And how did you hurt yourself?” “I tripped over a friend’s broom.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: This was the most ridiculous one to me.

Eric: At least it sounds plausible in the magic world. Aren’t you always tripping over your friend’s broom? I know I am.

Laura: Yeah, but the level of damage… and also, what happened to Hagrid’s face is not what happens when you trip over something. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. No, the excuses here are terrible.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: He also says he’s been away for his health, which… not a good look, man.

Eric: Where at? “Oh, the beach.”

Andrew: “In the south of France.”

Laura: Yeah, says that he spent two months on the coast of France.

Andrew: And that’s why I was asking earlier about Umbridge truly knowing who was tailing Hagrid, because she seems to kind of just buy… she doesn’t really buy it, but she doesn’t press further when he’s like, “I went to the beach. I needed a vacay.”

Laura: I think she’s just trying to…

Andrew: See what he says?

Laura: Yeah, she’s trying to see what she can get him to say, but I think she’s also trying to put him on notice. I mean, even the way she departs by saying, “Yeah, we really want to weed out unsatisfactory teachers, Hagrid. Goodnight.” It’s very clear she’s talking about him.

Micah: And she knows his track record, undoubtedly, probably going all the way back to the Chamber of Secrets and the whole incident with Tom Riddle.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: She knows about the incident with Buckbeak. She knows about – probably from Draco – just how bad of a teacher he is.

Eric: Oh, yeah. If she was sent to Hogwarts to reform the clientele or the staff, she probably has a dossier on Hagrid that’s leagues long. He’d be a pretty easy target, despite his physical presence.

Micah: Do you think, though, that the trio are the reason why she’s down here? Meaning, could Hagrid maybe have gotten a night to settle in, figure out his story, not be bombarded and interrogated by this woman had Harry, Ron, and Hermione not jumped at the first opportunity to come down to Hagrid’s hut?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think that’s a safe bet.

Andrew: Because what’s the rush, other than there seems to be some kids or people moving towards that hut in the dark of the night?

Eric: She must be still on edge about trying to catch them out of their common room or out of bed or something. But listening live, Robert P. said, “There were no footprints going back from Hagrid’s cabin to the school because that’s when Jesus carried them.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s very funny. Actually, they cast a charm behind themselves, but they should have done that on the way down! I’m just… it so would have derailed… it should have derailed, and it would have been all of their fault to not cover…

Andrew: I want to see Hagrid say that excuse to Umbridge. “Oh, there were no footprints because that’s where Jesus…”

Eric: “That’s the Lord!”

Andrew: [laughs] “That’s the Lord for you. He works in mysterious ways.”

Laura: [laughs] Oh, that’s funny. We get a couple of other things here at the end of the chapter, Hagrid referring to the Defense Against the Dark Arts curse and Umbridge waving him off, which was a nice “If you know, you know” moment.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Hermione is obviously extremely concerned about the curriculum that Hagrid is going to be teaching this year, because we all know that Hagrid is next up on the chopping block for professors that Umbridge wants to suspend. But what’s very interesting here is Hagrid refers to some of the lessons that he has planned, and he says that he has the only domestic herd of something in England.

Andrew: Foreshadow alert!

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Laura: So Harry is soon going to finally come face to face and confront those weird creatures that were pulling the carriages at the start of the year.


Odds & Ends


Laura: All right, couple of odds and ends, really quick ones. I thought this was an ouch moment: As they were leaving the castle under the Invisibility Cloak, Nearly Headless Nick was heard “humming something that sounded horribly like ‘Weasley Is Our King.'”

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: And I just thought that was so rude. But then also, Ron has been pretty rude to Nick, so maybe that’s why.

Andrew: [laughs] And let’s face it, it’s a catchy tune that Draco came up with. Nick was the Gryffindor House ghost, though, so I feel like that’s kind of mean to be singing that.

Eric: I think it’s the kind of thing where it’s innocent enough. It’s like, in spite of yourself, it’s catchy.

Andrew: Right, yeah, sometimes you just get an ear worm and you can’t let it go.

Eric: For hundreds of years.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And then there’s just this funny moment where Ron is reacting to Hagrid talking about how long it took he and Maxime to get to the mountains where the giants were. Ron reacts by saying, “‘A month?’ as though he had never heard of a journey lasting such a ridiculously long time.” And I’m like, “Just you wait.”

Andrew: Foreshadow alert.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]


Superlative of the Week


Laura: And now we’re going to get into our MVQ. Do we want to do that? MV Question of the week? No?

Andrew: It’s “Blank of the Week.” Whatever we want to call it.

Laura: Best Blank of the Week. All right, so this week’s question: Best Hagrid moment in this chapter we want to see get the Max treatment.

Andrew: So I want to see Hagrid and Maxime presenting that everlasting flame to the giants. Reading that, it’s so intriguing to me. It’s the first gift, and it just seems like a really cool bit of magic, and something that I personally would love to have in my house. Just imagine a permanent flame behind me in my shots, or that could be nice for a backyard too. Don’t have to worry about the gas or anything.

Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Well, I want to see, again, Madame Maxime being rip-roaring to go against the Death Eaters and Hagrid talking her down, especially because it’s easy to forget, I think, that she’s the headmistress of another wizarding school, so she’s total badass. She’s kind of been in a support role up to this point. I’d love to see her actually get her moment to shine there, maybe to help them scrape away. I’m saying add more action to what’s in the book.

Andrew: Oooh.

Micah: I really want to see him deliver the line to her, “Excuse me, but who the ruddy hell are you?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: To Umbridge?

Micah: Yes.

Eric: I love that.

Micah: And I would also just add in as a bonus, I want to see just him traveling and going to all these locations and the bar brawl he almost got into with a vampire in Minsk.

Laura: Oh, yeah. That would be so interesting.

Andrew: I think fans would lose their minds if they finally saw a vampire in the Harry Potter series. We got them in the books, but not in the movie.

Eric: Played by Robert Pattinson?

Andrew: Yeah, played by Robert Pattinson. [laughs]

Eric: Sanguini.

Laura: [laughs] I picked a moment that’s kind of a slapstick Hagrid moment from this chapter, because we got a few of those, and I love it. It’s when he goes to pat Hermione on the shoulder reassuringly, but he accidentally knocks her down, illustrating how he doesn’t know his strength. I would just love to see more Hagrid moments like this in the TV show, because there are plenty of moments we get represented in the books where he’s just a little awkward, and it’s also very commonplace; nobody makes a big deal about it, and he very good-naturedly does things like, “Oh, sorry,” and then reaches down to grab Hermione by her shirt collar and pull her back up.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: These are the kinds of things that I would love to see expanded on in the show.

Eric: Yeah, I like that a lot.

Andrew: So much opportunity.


Lynx Line


Laura: And now we’re going to get into our Lynx Line. This is a weekly benefit where MuggleCast listeners who are members of our community over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast answer a question of the week related to the discussion. This week’s question is if you could go on a magical adventure with any wizarding world character to do Dumbledore’s bidding, who would it be and why?

Andrew: Lady Gryffindor said,

“I would bring Helena Ravenclaw’s ghost if she was agreeable, and assuming she can leave the castle. She’s super smart, can walk through walls, come back to me with any news fast, and would be great at helping me figure out what spells to use or even feel ancient magic.”

Eric: Ooh, that answer feels like winning. It’s pretty cool. Cassandra says,

“I will follow Regulus Black’s example and bring a house-elf on my dangerous adventure. Perhaps I will bribe Dobby with a pair of mittens.”

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Micah: Jen says,

“Krum! He’s a triple threat. He’s a talented wizard, handy on a broom if we need to make a quick exit, and was raised around the Dark Arts in Durmstrang. His Quidditch star status would make it easy to travel from country to country if needed. Added bonus, I think he would have some really interesting stories, from life in Durmstrang to the hot goss from the international Quidditch scene to pass away the hours. But also, I feel he would be comfortable enough sitting in silence with me when my social battery is maxed. Perfect travel companion.”

Laura: Susan says,

“If I could go on a magical adventure, I’d go with George Weasley. Out of the twins, he’s more level-headed than Fred. Both have to be well-versed in Charms due to their shop. His skills, quick quips, and honestly, just arsenal of Weasleys’ Wizarding Wheezes products would make him the best companion on a mission.”

Andrew: Julianne said,

“Hot take: Draco. He’d do the tough things I was afraid to do. And maybe I’ve read too much Draco fanfic, but I think there’s a soft soul underneath the hard exterior.”

I agree with all of that. Smart.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: “I can change him.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m just kidding, Julianne. I’m just kidding.

Eric: Darin says,

“I think Lupin or Sirius would be good options. They are both super smart and proficient at magic, and have some ‘street smarts,’ having roamed the Hogwarts grounds and Hogsmeade during their time at school. Lupin is also a werewolf, so as long as precautions are taken, he would be good to have along.”

Aw. I’d just want the company.

Micah: Zachary says,

“Snape; one might call it the work of a Deep Cover Auror. I would love to be a second set of eyes and ears for the Order to give them even more of an advantage on the Death Eaters and U Know Poo.”

Laura: And Kim says,

“I would take Ginny. She’s smart, tough, and a great flyer, so we could get away quickly. I would also borrow Hermione’s bottomless bag, as I like to overpack.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Me too, me too, me too.

Andrew: Awesome contributions as always, everybody. And don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can email or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Our next Muggle Mail episode is just a couple weeks away, so please send in that feedback now; we’ll be doing it on Episode 700. But until then, next week we’ll discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “The Eye of the Snake.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: What ice hockey player had a rule named after him after he displayed unsportsmanlike tactics in an attempt to intimidate goalie Martin Brodeur by waving his hands and hockey stick in his face? This was, of course, Sean Avery. 45% of folks with the correct answer said they did not look it up.

Andrew: I don’t believe it.

Eric: Yeah, the Avery Rule of hockey. So now we know how many of our listeners follow hockey.

Andrew: Allegedly.

Eric: [laughs] Correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Buff Daddy; “I gave up listening to podcasts during Lent, so I won’t even know if you’ve read my name till after Easter.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh no!

Eric: Oh, but they didn’t put their name, so we didn’t technically read their name, only what they put as their name. Jenniffler; Quidd-Witch; Though Goes Hamilton; Hufflepuff Cloutet; and of course, our friend Tofu Tom.

Andrew: Woo!

Eric: Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In the English fairy tale Jack and the Beanstalk, Jack, who later meets a husband and wife that are giants, trades what to obtain a handful of magic beans?

Micah: His soul.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: An everlasting flame.

Eric: “Fee-fi-fo-fum.” Anyway, submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast web page; MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch is the quick URL, or if you’re already on our site, which, let’s be honest, we know you have bookmarked in all of your favorite browsers.

Andrew: Let’s be honest, it’s set to your home page.

Eric: Let’s be honest, yes, because the old days when people had home pages that weren’t just the Google search engine, which is deadly efficient. [sighs] Anyway, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: And let’s be honest, you want more podcasts from the four of us, so check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk hosted by us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam, Eric, and I are discussing if we could survive in the Hunger Games for real-for real, and on Millennial, we actually interviewed a relationship coach who walked us through the biggest issues couples are dealing with in the modern world. So Laura and I finally worked through all our relationship issues, and we’re getting married.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, we did.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Surprise, everyone.

Micah: Congratulations.

Andrew: Thank you so much.

Laura: She also diagnosed our attachment styles on the fly.

Eric: Whoa.

Andrew: It was fun.

Laura: Yeah. Fearful avoidant, apparently. I don’t know what that means about me.

Andrew: [laughs] All of these shows are brought to you by Muggles like you, and there’s a few great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear. Visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast for two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month, plus ad-free and early access to episodes of each show. You’ll also get monthly Zoom hangouts with the MuggleCasters, a new gift every year, exclusive community groups, and lots of other magical perks. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please do send an owl to your friend and let them know about MuggleCast, and cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Oh, I’m no longer Gurg; my head was ripped off, but I’m still Andrew. Headless Andrew. Fully Headless Andrew.

Laura: [laughs] Fully Headless Andrew.

Eric: “How can you be fully headless?” I have taken refuge in a cave, and hey, look at this fire. This is pretty neat. Somebody just left this here.

Andrew: Jealous.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m hiding under the Invisibility Cloak in Hagrid’s Hut. I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m not forgetting to cover up my footprints in the snow. I’m Laura.

Andrew: [laughs] Wow. Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric: That was oddly wholesome.

Transcript #697

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #697, Hey Malfoy You’re So Fine (OOTP Chapter 19, The Lion and the Serpent)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, where we go Chapter by Chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. We’re basically your Harry Potter friends and your weekly ride into the fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, try your best to avoid hitting your Quidditch rival lest you be banned from the sport forever, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.” Plus, we have a little bit of TV show and illustrated edition news, so let’s start with those two news items.


News


Andrew: First of all, we have casting updates concerning Snape and McGonagall: Paapa Essiedu and Janet McTeer are reportedly being signed for the roles of Snape and McGonagall. And we spoke about Paapa previously, when his name first came up as being considered for the role of Snape. Jana McTeer is new, though. She’s appeared in movies like The Menu, which was released in 2022, actually opposite Ralph Fiennes, who played Voldemort in the movies. And she was also in 2016’s Me Before You. But what I know her from is Ozark, the Netflix TV series.

Laura: Same. [laughs]

Andrew: She has an intimidating role on that show. And I was like, “Oh, this is perfect, because she was great in that role, so she can intimidate and boss kids around at Hogwarts.” So A+ there.

Laura: She’s a badass.

Eric: Love to hear that. Absolutely love to hear that.

Andrew: Yeah, so I’m pleased by that. Also – I think now we have to throw this out there for every time we hear about an actor or actress – both these people are English actors. They aren’t Americans.

Eric: Ooh, okay. All right.

Andrew: So any other thoughts on these two? We’ve discussed Paapa a bit previously, like I said.

Eric: Yeah, Snape’s casting in particular does seem to be driving people to the comment boards. I think at this point, really, we just have to see how the story is going to treat that character, because adding race into an already very difficult type character, I want to say problematic and offensive character, may excuse or make some discourse around that character harder to navigate.

Laura: I think the point is, though, you can be any race and be a crappy person. And I think sometimes people kind of miss the potential for a deeper story to be told here, because they’re too afraid of the what ifs. “What if someone has even more charged things to say about Snape because of his race?” Someone who was going to do that was going to find reasons to do it anyway, right? They were going to find some kind of outlet to pour that into, so I don’t know that we need to use that as a reason to not step outside of the box creatively, especially with a story like Harry Potter that I know we were – at least I was – very concerned early on that this show was just going to try and be a repeat of the best hits from the movies, and that it would be too much like the movies and they would just be trying to basically cash in. But what these castings show me, along with John Lithgow, is that they’re intending to tell a different story here, and they’re going to be faithful to the plot and the character arcs of the story we already know, but giving us a different lens to view it through. I’m actually excited by that.

Eric: I keep… in terms of for this particular topic, I go back to what Evalynda said when we talked about this on our mailbag Episode 690, and she said, as a person of color herself, “I actually think that changing his race would add complexity to his character.”

Andrew: The complaints I keep seeing are from people who are merely upset that they’re changing the race of a character.

Laura: There’s a lot of that too.

Andrew: That’s it! That’s it. They think WB is doing it just to cast more people of color in these roles. And we went through this when they cast a woman of color to play Hermione in the Cursed Child; people lost their minds. Then we see the show; it has zero impact on the story, on the character, nothing whatsoever. Looking at the comments on the MuggleCast video that we posted, a couple of people were like, “Oh, Snape can’t be a person of color, because in the book, he’s described as having a pale face on one page.” I’m like, “Are you freaking kidding me?”

Laura: Oh, who cares?

Andrew: Who cares?!

Laura: That’s ridiculous.

Andrew: It’s racist. They just want to complain about a Black person being put on their screens.

Micah: I think it just comes down to finding the best person to portray the role.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And as you just said, even though people initially were up in arms about changing the race of Hermione for Cursed Child, she was fantastic, and I think we’ll find something similar, hopefully, with Paapa Essiedu taking on this role. People are so focused on the color of the person’s skin… has absolutely nothing to do with the character that he or she might be portraying. I think we need to remove that from the conversation here.

Andrew: For this character specifically, yes. Race plays no role in this character.

Laura: And I would be really interested in hearing other people’s opinions on this, but I think it’s… I see a lot of the rhetoric around “Oh no, we can’t put a person of color in this role, because that could lead to all of these negative perceptions that are rooted in race” that, sorry, already exist in the world anyway. But I feel like it also takes away from the perception that a person of color can and should have the acting range to be able to play a role like this and not always be cast as the good guy, because we’re too afraid to say, “Oh yeah, sometimes anyone can be the bad guy. Anyone can be the jerk.”

Andrew: I just want to make the record clear for everybody, everybody who’s upset about this Snape casting, don’t worry; Janet McTeer is a white woman, so we can all rest easy knowing they’re not changing the race of every character.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: All right? So sleep well tonight.

Eric: I’ll say, too, for Snape, the actor is 34, which is wonderful.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Great!

Eric: Wonderful. Spring chicken.

Andrew: [laughs] “Wonderful.”

Micah: Age appropriate.

Eric: Younger than me, by a few years.

Micah: Younger than me.

Laura: Me too.

Eric: I’m very excited.

Micah: Do you think, though, what this is telling us is that they’re going to cast the Marauders also as being age appropriate?

Eric and Laura: Yep.

Eric: Age appropriate. Canon age.

Andrew: Oooh, good call there. Stay with MuggleCast for more Harry Potter TV show coverage as we approach filming, which is slated to kick off this summer. In some other news, we’ve been wondering what is going to happen to the future of the Jim Kay illustrated Harry Potter books because he decided to step down after Book 5 to look out for his mental health. Completely understandable; this was a huge project that he was taking on. Well, this week we have the new illustrator for Books 6 and 7, Levi Pinfold, and he’s actually worked in the world of Harry Potter before. He worked on Bloomsbury’s Hogwarts House editions, which came out over several years, ending in 2021, and he also worked on the Harry Potter Wizarding Almanac, which came out October 2023.

Micah: Does he look like Jim Kay?

Andrew: I don’t know. [laughs] Hopefully, hopefully. We also now have a release date for the Half-Blood Prince illustrated edition. It’s coming out October 2026, so it’s going to be that year’s holiday gift.

Eric: Part one.

Andrew: Keep dreaming, Eric. Keep dreaming.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Half the Half-Blood.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yes, Quarter-Blood Prince.

Andrew: The half Half-Blood Prince. Harry Potter and Half of the Half-Blood Prince. [laughs]

Eric: Sorry, it’s one of my only recurring jokes, so I have to keep saying it.

Andrew: [laughs] You can actually see a preview of his work already on HarryPotter.com. They released his illustration of Harry and Dumbledore looking into the Pensieve, which was beautiful. It looked very similar to Jim Kay’s style, so I think it’s going to be a pretty seamless transition over to Levi Pinfold. Now, here’s something interesting: In the announcement, Jim Kay actually gave his endorsement to Levi Pinfold. He said, “An art director first showed me Levi’s work many years back when I was visiting a publisher. When he pulled open the drawer and I saw this beautiful piece of painting, I was blown away. His work has since then become so important to me, as he’s everything that you could wish for in an illustrator. It’s a huge comfort to know he is working on the Illustrated Editions, for which I’m so grateful, but also as a fan of both Potter and Pinfold, I’m really excited!” Now, the reason I say this is interesting is because when Scholastic announced the new illustrators for the MinaLima editions, there was no endorsement from MinaLima saying, “We’re so excited about the new illustration team.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Oh, you shoot-stirrer.

Andrew: Awkward.

Eric: Yeah. No, but this is the way that you would imagine that they should be doing this with a successor. Good-natured passing of the baton. If this sort of thing has to happen, that’s what you want to see.

Andrew: Jim Kay decided himself to step down. It seems like MinaLima wanted to continue on the project, but there was some sort of rift between them and Scholastic. That’s our speculation, in any way. Allegedly.

Micah: Levi’s got a little bit of Sirius Black going for him here.

Andrew: Yeah?

Micah: In this photo, it looks like.

Andrew: Do you think he could play Sirius in the Harry Potter TV show?

Micah: Why not?

Andrew: All right. [laughs]

Eric: That would be cool.

Andrew: Let him know.

Eric: Let’s start casting people who’ve worked on the previous series, but as actors.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Mary Grand-Pré for Madam Hooch.

Eric: Yes!

Micah: I can see that, actually.

Andrew: [laughs] I was going to say McGonagall, but that role is taken now.

Micah: Supposedly. She can still sneak in.

Andrew: Well, as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show and other news in the Wizarding World, we would really appreciate your financial support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By becoming a member of our Patreon, you’re helping us conjure up episodes of this indie show, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like bonus MuggleCast episodes; we release two of those every month. You’ll also get access to our livestreams, our planning docs, ad-free episodes of the show, access to our Discord and Facebook groups, and so much more, so check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And without further ado, let’s get into Chapter by Chapter. And this week, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.”

Eric: Yes, yes, yes. Well, Andrew, we last discussed Chapter 19 on Episode 455 of MuggleCast, called “How to Hogwarts.” That debuted March 3 of 2020, and here is a fascinating clip from our chapter discussion.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 455.

Eric: Harry’s only recourse is to catch the Snitch fast, and so he does. But Crabbe shoots a Bludger at him, hits him in the small of the back. Have you guys…? The small of the back is where all the nerves meet, and….

Micah: That hurts like a you-know-what if you ever get hit there.

Eric: Have you ever been injured there, Micah?

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I’ve also gotten kicked during karate, like right in the kidneys…

Laura: Oof.

Micah: … and you have to gasp for air. But yeah, if you ever get hit in the small of the back…

Andrew: You did karate? I didn’t know that.

Micah: Yeah, man. Watch out.

Eric: Watch out. [laughs]

Andrew: I won’t mess with you.

[Micah laughs]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: I just had that same reaction listening to that clip. Micah did karate? Totally forgot.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I did.

Eric: I saved it from repeating by letting us all know at the outset. So since that episode aired five years ago, I’ve been giving Micah a wide berth. I don’t know if you noticed that, Micah.

Andrew: Good call.

Micah: Thank you. But it does hurt, for those who have not experienced it.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I’ll just reiterate that fact. You definitely do gasp for air because you’re getting hit in some of your most important organs.

Eric: It’s never a good thing.

Micah: It isn’t.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: But what is a good thing is that Harry is flying high after his first Dumbledore’s Army lesson, but it is short-lived, unfortunately, as most things are for Harry in this series, and we find out that it is becoming very challenging to schedule these Dumbledore’s Army meetings because everyone has competing priorities, right? It’s like when we try and schedule a MuggleCast.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There’s so many other things going on in people’s lives that it’s just tough for us to find a time to sit down and record.

Eric: Right, we barely all made it on this week.

Micah: It is true. We need Hermione’s solution, which I really enjoyed reading because it positions her as potentially being a Ravenclaw or having some very strong Ravenclaw qualities, because when she shares that she used a Protean Charm on the Dumbledore’s Army coins, Terry Boot, who is in Ravenclaw, asks why she wasn’t placed there, and Hermione says that the Sorting Hat considered it, but ultimately placed her into Gryffindor. So I’m curious why did the Sorting Hat opt for Gryffindor instead? And I think it’d be fun to make the case for her being in Ravenclaw.

Andrew: Well, I think she’s proven herself at this point to be a brave person, so I think maybe that comes into play. The Sorting Hat was thinking about… saw bravery in her. I don’t know if she exhibited cases of bravery in the past.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, it’s very easy to say because she reads a lot that she’d make a great Ravenclaw, but I seem to recall some discussion throughout the years being that perhaps Sorting is based on what your values are, more than what your personality is strictly. So what she says to Harry in Book 1, “Books and cleverness; there are greater things,” really shows that her values align with the traits that Gryffindors are known for. So maybe that’s it, why she was placed by the hat in there.

Laura: Yeah. I do find it interesting that she notes that the hat picked Gryffindor ultimately, and that it wasn’t her choice, because Harry got to choose.

Eric: Well, he’s the chosen… choosing one.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but wasn’t it determined that in a Hatstall situation, you get to choose?

Eric: I think that’s right.

Andrew: At what level do you hit Hatstall, though?

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I mean, if the Sorting Hat is just going back and forth, like, “Eenie, meeny, miny, mo… I don’t know.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I think the Sorting Hat has to declare Hatstall, and that’s when you get to pick.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a bell or a whistle that nobody hears that comes out once every couple of years.

Laura: Is that canon?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t think that’s canon.

Andrew: I don’t know if that’s canon, but I could see Hermione just sitting there and waiting for the hat to decide, rather than trying to influence the Sorting Hat like Harry did.

Eric: Well, a Hatstall is very much a Pottermore thing anyway, so it happened post-seven books, even though we learn about other characters that were supposedly Hatstalls historically. Yeah, I think it is canon now, though, that everyone gets the same type of long conversation that Harry had with the hat. [laughs] Where you hear his internal thoughts, “Better be Gryffindor!”

Andrew: [laughs] A six-hour Sorting ceremony for 50 students.

Eric: “You’ve got courage, you’ve got a strong mind…”

Andrew: Oh, that would be so boring, though, if you have to sit there and wait for the hat to deliberate through all these people.

Eric: That’s literally what Hermione… it sounds like the hat did that for her.

Andrew: Oh, painful. It’d be one thing if you could hear the hat deliberating, like everybody else in the Great Hall could hear the hat deliberating, but they can’t, right? That’s more of a movie-ism.

Laura: That would be mortifying if they could. Can you imagine?

Andrew: [laughs] “And you once picked your nose, which suggests you are…”

Eric: “HUFFLEPUFF!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Hey, look, it’s okay if Hufflepuffs say it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That hat is so dirty, too, the longer it stays on your head.

Eric: I bet the hat appreciated Hermione’s clean teeth.

Micah: Oh, maybe.

Eric: I don’t know why.

Andrew: Good personal hygiene.

Micah: I do think there’s a certain amount of bravery, too, in the fact that she is a Muggle-born coming to Hogwarts…

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Absolutely.

Micah: … and she doesn’t make any apologies for it. She’s also not hesitant at all about confronting those who may throw insults her way, so I can understand why she was initially put into Gryffindor, but clearly the hat detected her intellect as well. I was curious, though, if she was placed into Ravenclaw, would she have a different opinion of Luna?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Luna is Ginny’s year so would have been one year younger, but still would have spent a decent amount of time with her, and maybe wouldn’t be so confrontational.

Eric: That’s interesting, because Hermione and Luna are still such different characters. To me, either Luna would grow on Hermione, or I can actually see it going the other way. She could think of Luna the way that Harry still thinks of Colin Creevey, like “That weird kid who’s younger than me and always following me around.” I can see Hermione, even if she were a Ravenclaw, avoiding Luna at all costs, because Luna does not represent the textbook, traditional version of Ravenclaw that you would read about. She’s a much different, interesting kind of Ravenclaw.

Laura: You know, though, I kind of feel like Luna is an outcast in her own House, so I actually think Hermione would probably treat her just about the same, because it seems like that’s how the rest of Ravenclaw treats her. They hide her things from her. Why? They all think she’s weird too.

Andrew: All it would take, though, is one bonding moment in the common room for Hermione to change her opinion on Luna. I have to also think that by being in the same House, Hermione would inherently be a little bit nicer. Not to say that Hermione is always nice to Gryffindors; thinking of feuds with Ron first and foremost, but Seamus or Lavender…

Eric: Well, Ron deserves it, but you have a good point.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I just think there would be a bit of an advantage there for Luna if they were in a House together. Hermione maybe might think, “Oh, how crazy could she be if we got Sorted into the same House?”

Eric: By year five, Hermione will have exhausted all the Ravenclaws’ books, and she’d be looking for more books, and then she’s going to find The Quibbler and Luna is going to give her all the back issues.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: We keep talking about Luna as the outcast, but Hermione may very well have been an outcast as well.

Eric: She nearly was, yeah.

Micah: Just because of how smart she is; I’m not sure how likely fellow Ravenclaws would take to her within her own year. We know that obviously she becomes very good friends with Ron and Harry, but what’s the likelihood that she would have formed those types of friendships with others in Ravenclaw? It’s hard to say.

Eric: I think the fact that she’s in Gryffindor actually brings out that social aspect of her, and that’s a good thing for Hermione’s character, because you can retreat into a book, and I think growing up in Ravenclaw would probably encourage her in some ways to do that and put always academics and learning first. Being in Gryffindor and having to navigate the friendship with Ron and Harry in the earliest months of year one really formed that more social and therefore socially responsible aspect of Hermione’s character.

Laura: Eric, you said something earlier that I really loved about how how we’re Sorted is really based more on values.

Eric: I wish I could remember where I last heard that.

Micah: I said it. I’m just kidding.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I mean, you might have. I’m not sure.

Micah: No, I don’t think so.

Laura: But what I love about it is we see in Hermione and Luna two very different representations of what a Ravenclaw could be, which suggests that very holistic values-based approach to Sorting. So to me, it feels like Luna by virtue of her intellectual openness to learning new things and to giving new concepts a chance and not immediately writing them off, that’s a very important kind of intelligence, so I would assert that that’s probably the reason that Luna ends up in Ravenclaw. Whereas if Hermione had ended up there, I think it would have been more of that stereotypical bookish, highly academic, competitive spirit that would have landed her there. So I just think it’s so interesting that you can have two characters who represent the same values, just in very different ways.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Micah: And speaking of the coins that Hermione does charm, she mentions that she draws inspiration for them from the Dark Mark tattoos that Lord Voldemort uses for his Death Eaters, so is this an example of something good coming from something evil?

Eric: Yes. Yeah, and it shows that certain magic is maybe value neutral, or can be at least accessed by both sides.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And I think we see examples across the series of Hermione’s bad side poking out from time to time, getting a little mischievous where maybe you wouldn’t expect.

Micah: Naughty.

Andrew: Yeah, I was thinking that word; I didn’t want to use it. [laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Micah: Well, I mean, we’re not into Half-Blood Prince just yet.

Andrew: [laughs] But I do think she has her moments where she’s more inclined to break the rules, and she’s not breaking the rules here, but she’s letting her dark side come out in this moment. And if the Death Eaters have come up with a good communication system with the Dark Mark, why not use it on the good side too?

Laura: Yeah. And honestly, there are very, very many historical examples of this happening in secret societies both on the light and dark side of history communicating through coded messages and very ingenious contraptions that are used to communicate, so this is another example of something in Harry Potter that’s kind of lifted straight out of reality.

Micah: Let’s not forget, though, that the Order also has a way of communicating. It’s not by physically branding their members, but they do use a Patronus to communicate, which we’ll find out a little bit later on. So it’s actually really impressive on the part of Hermione that she thinks about creating a way that all of them can communicate, but in a way that really no one would notice.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: I think that’s what’s so great about this, is… I know there’s jokes about Ron and the fact that he actually has money, and so that in and of itself may surprise some people, but just the fact that, yeah, most people have change in their pockets, or at least they did back in the ’90s. We all have credit cards now, I know, so…

Eric: In this economy? Oh, that’s where you were going with that, okay.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: But let’s talk about this whole coin idea in particular.

Micah: You don’t like it.

Andrew: I don’t like it, because…

Eric: What?

Andrew: This is what’s buggin’ me this week.

Micah: Oh, what’s buggin’ Andrew?

Andrew: Not buggin’ Micah; it’s what’s buggin’ Andrew. A coin is so easy to lose, and I’m not saying that somebody would find it and then figure out the hidden date and time on the coin, but we’ve all been there where we’ve left something in our pocket, and maybe we pull something else out of our pocket, and then that coin falls out along with it, a $5 bill falls out along with it, and then it’s lost. It might go through the wash. A coin is just so small and easy to lose. I don’t think it’s the best item to use.

Laura: I would lose it instantly.

Eric: Oh man, give yourself some credit.

Laura: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Look, if Neville doesn’t lose his, then it’s not an easy item to lose.

Andrew: That is shocking. Maybe Hermione put some glue on his so it won’t leave his pocket.

Eric: [laughs] There’s a little string on his…

Andrew: A little string, yeah.

Micah: So the big focal point of this chapter is really the Gryffindor versus Slytherin Quidditch match and all that it entails, and this is Ron’s first big go at being Keeper on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and he is really anxious about this match, so much so that he won’t touch breakfast, which for Ron, we all know…

Eric: Oh.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Boy likes to eat, right? So something’s wrong with him if he won’t even touch food, but I feel like we’ve all been in his shoes before, right?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Anxiety can be crippling under any circumstance. Doesn’t have to just be pertaining to performing in a big sporting event; it can be literally anything. And I felt for Ron in this moment. Anybody else?

Andrew: Oh, yeah, me too. Going into maybe a big presentation, a job interview, a date, maybe even a family event… anxiety comes up in a lot of different ways that can cripple you and might even prevent you from eating. Even just a busy work day. I was very busy yesterday; by 3:00 p.m., I was like, “Wow, I haven’t eaten anything yet today.”

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, it’s just amplified by the fact that he’s not quite ready yet.

Micah: No.

Laura: We’ve seen Ron kind of struggling at practices, and he gets there eventually, as we know, but at this point in time he’s not ready, and he knows he’s not ready, so that just makes it so much worse.

Micah: Yeah, and it is interesting to see how Harry reacts, because another big piece of this is the fact that on top of Ron being very anxious about this Quidditch match, he’s being taunted; he’s being teased by Slytherin. And Harry has had this experience since he started at Hogwarts, so this is nothing new to him; he can pretty much shrug it off, and he actually throws it back in their face at one point in this chapter. But it is interesting to see the different dynamic, where you have Harry, who’s been through this for a number of years and really doesn’t let it shake him, versus Ron, who this is his first matchup, and it’s clearly having an impact on him.

Andrew: And it’s not just playing Quidditch, merely. I mean, there’s multiple layers here. He’s playing Quidditch against Slytherin, who he hates. He’s playing with his teammates, who he wants to impress. He’s playing basically on a stage in front of the rest of the school; performing in front of other people is nerve-wracking in and of itself. But then you’re also trying to score a win for Gryffindor, and it’s your first game, and you’re not too confident in your skills. There’s a lot here to stress you out.

Eric: Your brothers are on the team. Also, if we go back to Mirror of Erised, Ron’s deepest desire of his heart was to be successful at Quidditch.

Andrew: And now he has to prove it to himself.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: That’s such a great point.

Eric: He has to prove he deserves it. But he’s definitely haggard, too… well, Hagrid is back later on.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But also, Ron is very haggard, and I kind of have a joke reading this. Ron just looks deathly ill, and I kind of joked that after he’s in his head this whole chapter, after he goes for his long walk, he should be able to see Thestrals.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because he’s looked at the face of death. Literally this whole chapter he’s just terrified, terror-stricken, stricken about his performance, so we’ll have to see if that’s canon.

Micah: I do think that can demonstrate how impactful anxiety can be on somebody, even in a situation like this, where we would look at as readers and say, “Oh, in the grand scheme of things, that’s not that big of a deal.” But for a 15-year-old who, as was described, is trying to really go out there and impress his peers and not mess up in front of the entire school against presumably your House’s biggest rival, that’s a lot to put on the shoulders of somebody like Ron, and I’m sure if I was in his shoes, I would be going through the exact same emotions.

Andrew: I agree.

Micah: Now let’s have a little bit of a debate about what falls into the gamesmanship category versus what falls into the bullying category, because there’s quite a bit that goes on during this match, and I’m curious, where do we feel the line gets crossed? Or do we feel like Draco is acting within reason? Now, for me, I would argue that the psychological component of this is masterful on the part of Draco; he’s getting inside of the head of the newest Gryffindor team member, who, outside of Harry, has arguably the most important job on the team, because if Ron can’t protect the goal, that’s a major problem. So I actually don’t see Draco doing anything wrong within the context of the match itself, because in sports, you do see opposing teams’ fans wearing, saying, chanting, all sorts of antagonizing things, so it comes down to where we all feel the line is.

Andrew: Well, maybe it is a failure of Hogwarts and the rules around Quidditch to have allowed this rather than blaming it on Draco, but I think it’s different in this situation. It is inappropriate because they are kids, and “Weasley” is specifically in this song. They are targeting one particular person with this song. It’s just very direct.

Eric: Right, this isn’t “Oh, Gryffindor is going to get crushed…”

Andrew: Right, right.

Eric: ” … they can’t find their ass with a shovel…”

Andrew: Or Micah will appreciate this: I watch football games these days, and when a team is really losing, you start hearing them go, “Ohhh…” The joke, or the implication, is that it’s over for the losing team. So if they were doing something like that…

Eric: I never knew what that meant!

Andrew: Yeah, I think I have that right.

Eric: Oh, God.

Laura: Yeah, that’s the thing. When it’s collective ribbing, I think that’s acceptable. If it’s like, “Oh, boo Gryffindor, you guys suck,” kind of like what was said before, that’s one thing. But to specifically target one student like that, not okay. I mean, they’re not athletes making the big bucks.

Andrew: No.

Laura: When they’re out there raking their money in, they’re probably going to have thicker skin to be able to take it, but not right now. It’s not appropriate.

Andrew: And it’s his first game.

Eric: I just think it’s really interesting how extra this is, how much trouble Draco went through to execute this entire thing. He had to write a song. He had to teach it to the other Slytherins. I imagine late nights in common rooms; he’s like, “No!” And he has to play teacher…

Andrew: [laughs] “And a-one, two, three, four…”

Eric: Yeah, yeah, and he has little badges made for everybody. I think Draco cares for Ron. I don’t know.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He puts a lot of thought and time and effort into destroying him.

Andrew: Got a hate crush on him?

Eric: It’s something. If you really look at it, this is all designed to deflect from Draco’s own inadequacies, his own Quidditch inadequacies.

Micah: I was just going to say that. It’s clear his talents lay elsewhere from the Quidditch pitch, because he is not good as a Seeker.

Eric: Right. No, he can’t face off against… he’s never won a match against Harry.

Micah: At least against Harry. I don’t know what his success rate is against the other Houses.

Eric: Yeah, I assume he caught a Snitch once or twice. Broken clock and all that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But he’s never won against Harry, and so instead, he’s going to focus on being as mean as possible, or giving his team an advantage, not by being the best Seeker, but by demoralizing the other team’s Keeper, and allowing his team to score, so it’s all a big smoke screen, so that everyone’s talking about Ron and nobody’s talking about him.

Micah: I also think, though, that Draco may be looking at the larger picture here, and we’ll talk a little bit about this when we get to him antagonizing the Weasley twins and Harry after the match is over, but he’s very good at knowing what he can get away with, and he knows that these pins that he creates – we saw an iteration of them in Goblet of Fire – that’s probably not crossing the line. The song, there’s probably different verses you could pull out, or different lines that you can pull out that do cross the line. But overall, within the grand scheme of an actual sporting event going on, and the fact that you have the entire Slytherin section singing it, he likely can get away with that, and he’s not the one that is conducting it, right? Isn’t it Pansy, at the end of the day, that is doing it?

Eric: It’s Pansy, yeah.

Micah: So it doesn’t actually fall on his shoulders. And I think his ultimate goal in all of this is to try and get the Gryffindor Quidditch team banned, to try and get Harry banned, because he knows that if they’re out of the picture, even if they lose this match, the likelihood of Slytherin being able to win at the end of the year is much greater.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And he’s right. I mean, it works in terms of getting Harry banned.

Laura: I also would not be surprised if Umbridge had her hands in this as well and kind of put Draco up to it.

Micah: Those sausage fingers.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: She’s the Kermit meme. “Do it.”

Eric and Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: [imitating Umbridge] “Do it! Hem-hem!”

Eric: Well, that’s an interesting point because she does… we keep getting confirmation that she really has it out for the Gryffindor Quidditch team.

Andrew: And she’s wearing Slytherin green, right?

Micah: She is.

Eric: Yeah, it makes her look even more like a toad.

Micah: Now, it was her House, as we know.

Laura: But to be honest, I think both Umbridge and Draco wanted Harry not to be able to play Quidditch for maybe different reasons, but they both wanted it.

Eric: Sometimes the odds are too great.

Laura: Yeah. It just feels like, especially knowing how close they do get over the course of this book with the Inquisitorial Squad and everything, I just feel like she was orchestrating some of that.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised. Let’s not forget what she does at the very beginning of the book, right?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Preemptive strike.

Micah: This would not be something that I would put past her at all. But one thing that I did notice when I was going through this chapter, and it was kind of in the back of my head because I remember it getting brought up that Quidditch in particular was very challenging for the author to write. I enjoyed reading it in this chapter, but I could understand why it would be a challenge. And so I was curious if the rest of you felt that way. Do you think it doesn’t come across well? Or can it only be in one instance in one book?

Eric: For me, it always works. It always works. I always like reading it. I understand how, from a writing standpoint, it can be difficult to diversify and make a different… make a match really stand out. But I have no notes whatsoever about how Quidditch is executed throughout the entire book series. I just really like it.

Andrew: For me, I just… look, I enjoy Quidditch. I think it’s cool. It’s exciting; it’s fun. I do skim through the Quidditch scenes. I’m looking out for some key details, but I’m kind of moving through it faster than I’m reading the rest of the chapter, just because it is fast-moving and a little hard for me to follow. And what am I getting out of it, really? Quidditch match.

Micah: Sports, bro.

Andrew: Sport… oh, yeah. “Ohhh…” I should be singing that while reading.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Maybe that’ll make it more interesting to me. No, but I just need to know who wins and if anything pivotal happens.

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: So that’s my thing; I love reading Quidditch when there’s some kind of focal point that has to do with the greater story also happening during Quidditch, like “Weasley Is Our King.” This is a great chapter. Also Dementors, for example, in Prisoner of Azkaban. But I’ll be honest, if it’s simply a Quidditch match that has no defining story arc moment apart from Gryffindor won or Gryffindor lost, I don’t care as much about those. I think it comes across, especially the later you get in the series, how much she did not enjoy writing these scenes, so it comes across in the way you read too. Also, Quidditch as a sport really doesn’t make a lot of sense; that’s why they had to adjust it for Quidditch Champions that came out last year.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: They had to kind of balance the rules, because Quidditch, when you really think about it – and Micah, you probably know better than anyone else here – there’s a lot about it that doesn’t make a lot of sense. [laughs]

Micah: I do like what you’re saying, though, because if you look to the last book, yeah, we get the Quidditch World Cup, but that’s it. She basically writes Quidditch out of the rest of Goblet of Fire, because there’s the Triwizard Tournament, so that’s a convenient loophole for her to not have to write about Quidditch. But you would anticipate that she would, though, right? Because they have one of the best-known Quidditch players in the world in Viktor Krum at Hogwarts, but yet we only get him in the first couple of chapters of Goblet of Fire. And then Order of the Phoenix, Harry gets banned from Quidditch, so that helps to not have him involved. Obviously, Ron is, but yeah, it’s interesting. But it’s cool that there was a sport that was invented and that we do get the chance to read it.

Andrew: [laughs] Fair enough.

Micah: Yeah, it’s no Gobstones, but it’s something. Let’s not forget there was an entire college sport that was created out of Quidditch. One of the challenges for Harry in this match is not Slytherin; it’s Ron and his performance, and Harry’s performance actually starts to be affected because of Ron’s struggles throughout the course of this match. And of course, it is lucky at the end of the day that Harry ends up catching the Snitch, but it does show you how one teammate’s performance or lack thereof can have an impact on another, especially when that person is one of your closest friends.

Andrew: Yeah, he naturally wants to look out for Ron, but what’s funny about this is that if Harry actually kept his eye on the ball – or the Snitch – he may have been able to end the game faster, meaning he would end Ron’s suffering faster as well.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: But by just staring at Ron and getting focused on this chant, he’s slowing down the potential end of the match and letting Slytherin win, potentially!

Eric: Eh, you see it when you see it.

Laura: You know what I think is funny? I wonder if Ron was kind of doing the same thing and focusing on Harry, being like, “Please catch the Snitch, man. Just end this.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Shoo! Go! Go look for it!”

Eric: It’s sad to see, honestly, because the first one that gets in, the first goal that gets in was right through the middle hoop, and from what little I’ve played of Quidditch Champions, I know that the middle hoop is the easiest one to defend, so that’s a low blow. And in general, just… Ron is dealing with everything. He’s overwhelmed.

Micah: Laura, you have a real world analogy for us.

Laura: Oh, yeah. So yeah, clearly Harry, I guess, hasn’t heard a pre-flight safety instruction video. “Put your oxygen mask on before helping others.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Harry, what are you doing? You can’t help him. There’s nothing you can do for him right now.

Eric: Yeah. Well, it’s the Beaters’ job, right? To get… if you have a weak Keeper, you have to weaken the opposing team’s Chasers, and the way you do that is with Bludgers. So there are teammates that can help Ron, but Harry is not one of them.

Laura: Yeah, they’re his brothers. [laughs]

Eric: But the problem here is that Harry just is so hurt by the fact that this is happening to his friend, and I don’t think he can believe how extra it all is either.

Laura: Yeah, it’s pretty ridiculous.

Eric: Yeah. The one line that doesn’t work for me, by the way, in the whole chant is “Weasley was born in a bin.” That, to me, is a bit extra. That is just particularly low classism. It’s not what you would find in an average school chant. It’s not the line you want all the students repeating and repeating and repeating. I think it should be off the table.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It does feel very ’90s teen melodrama to me, though.

Andrew: The song on a whole, or just the line?

Micah: The line.

Eric: “Weasley was born in a bin”?

Micah: No, I mean the song too. It’s not out of place. I agree with you; it is extra, and it’s certainly not something that should be said.

Eric: I mean, they could’ve said…

Micah: But look, there are adults present that could have…

Eric: Stopped it? Yeah.

Micah: … stopped it, and none of them chose to. I mean, presumably the entire staff is present, right?

Eric: Honestly, yeah. The lack of action from any of the adults that entire match is deafening.

Laura: Yeah, well, I mean, how Umbridge reacts here in the next few pages, we’re going to cover…

Micah: She was probably singing.

Laura: Yeah, that’s the funny thing. This whole, I mean, bullying session was happening in front of the entire school and she said nothing, but she’s going to lose her mind over someone defending his mother’s honor.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Right. All right, well, as Laura alluded to earlier, usually there are bigger plot points to these Quidditch matches than just the matches themselves, and boy, do we get a showdown post-Gryffindor/Slytherin between Draco, George, and Harry, and Draco really uses the opportunity to verbally assault Molly and Arthur. He calls Molly fat and ugly, he calls Arthur a useless loser, and he talks about the Burrow, the fact that it stinks, and perhaps Harry doesn’t notice that the Burrow stinks because Harry’s mother’s house stank as well.

Eric: The implication being because she’s Muggle-born.

Micah: Exactly. Now, that’s the straw that breaks the camel’s back, because there’s a lot of restraint that’s happening prior to this, but once that line gets delivered, all bets are off. And honestly, we’re talking about teenagers, so as much as they may want to restrain themselves or have their friends restrain them, at some point, stuff’s going to go down, right?

Andrew: Yeah, we even see this in adult sporting events – hockey, football – these guys can’t control their tempers, and they start fighting, which I always find so immature when you’re getting paid. But like we were talking about earlier, you shouldn’t have to put up with this type of thing. You shouldn’t have to put up with this type of taunting when you’re a student just doing this for fun. And of course, these things that Draco says are really awful.

Eric: Yeah, they have no place in the kind of world in which good people live. You can make the case, “Oh, it’s talk, whatever,” but Malfoy, who is an extremely privileged individual, he’s saying all this with impunity. He’s saying all this with absolutely no repercussions coming his way. And I think it would inspire any reasonable person’s attempt at fighting for the honor of the people that he continues to slight and to really put him in his place. It needs to happen. He’s just going to keep behaving this way because he’s been allowed full reign to do so up until this point.

Micah: Yeah, he really has.

Laura: I feel like… and I think I’ve said this before. I’m never an advocate for violence; I think it’s wrong. However, there are some people like Draco who have never been on the receiving end of someone’s physical reaction to their BS, and it shows. People who have never faced the consequences for running off at the mouth about things they shouldn’t be doing usually end up finding out. Draco has not found out yet.

Andrew: But the thing that gets me about this, and the reason I’m not okay with Harry physically fighting Draco, is because McGonagall has told him twice now to not give Umbridge any excuses to punish him. And I know tempers are high, but he needs to keep that in mind, or else he’s going to get in trouble again in front of the whole school.

Laura: [sighs] Yeah, but I’m just thinking about the fact that these are teenagers and their mothers are being insulted by someone who has sour grapes that they just lost a game, right?

Andrew: So how about just returning his verbal attacks with your own verbal attacks? Why get physical?

Laura: Sure, I fully agree with you, and I think if someone were talking smack about my mom to me today, at 36 years old, I think I’m a little more equipped to deal with that in a more rational way. But when you’re a teenager, and your hormones are all over the place and tensions are high… I’m not saying it’s right, but it makes total sense that it happened.

Eric: I think if a 15-year-old insulted my mom today, I would still hit them.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I would be like, “You’re an immature, stupid brat; I’m ignoring you,” I think. Around the neighborhood you see kids say stupid stuff. You just let it go.

Eric: You want to believe that you’d be above it, but Draco just knows how to push the buttons. That’s why he does it.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ll give him credit for that.

Micah: And Laura, you said you wouldn’t be surprised if somebody in particular instigated this, or maybe planted the seed inside of Draco’s head.

Laura: Totally. I think it makes a lot of sense; they have a shared goal, right? And we already know that Draco is predisposed to saddling up to whoever’s going to make Harry’s life more difficult. Think about Rita Skeeter last year. Draco is still very much operating under the mentality of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” He doesn’t see Umbridge for the danger she presents at this point because the consequences haven’t really reared their ugly head yet. They will in a couple years.

Eric: Right, she’s punishing the right people for him to please him.

Laura: Yep. And I mean, again, she’s Undersecretary to Fudge. Fudge is in Lucius’s pocket. It’s really easy to connect the dots. I’m like Charlie Day over here with my yarn board.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: We should get you a yarn board that you can put up behind you.

Laura: I would.

Micah: Connecting those threads.

Laura: I would do it. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, so I guess we never get a proper handshake line after the Quidditch match, which usually happens in most sports; not all of them, but that is usually a pleasantry that’s observed by teams afterwards, but not in this case.

Eric: When I was in tee-ball, all the kids would try and squeeze the hands as hard as possible.

Andrew: Yeah, be a fun way to tease each other.

Micah: And let’s not forget, Harry is also… we played the Time-Turner segment earlier; he’s coming off of getting hit in the small of the back with a Bludger after the match was over. And we’re going to talk about punishment and how it is doled out on the part of one Dolores Umbridge, but somebody else is ready to dole out some punishment for Harry and George, and it’s McGonagall.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She is not happy at all with these two, and she’s ready to give them a week’s worth of detention, but not under Umbridge’s watch, because Dolores is about to enter the room and flex her authority muscle. She’s passed a new Educational Decree giving her authority to do so, and as if the end of the Quidditch match wasn’t deflating enough, now we have to watch Umbridge dole out her punishment to George, Harry, and Fred, by the way, and we’ll talk about that, because that’s just BS.

Andrew: Eh.

Micah: No, you don’t think so? Well, we’ll get to it. But one thing that I found really interesting was that we learn in this chapter that Umbridge was planning to not allow the Gryffindor Quidditch team to reform in the first place, and McGonagall went over her head to Dumbledore and got that all sorted out. Now, I mean, I know why, but it’s really not fair.

Andrew: No, it’s not fair.

Micah: And what reasoning do you have? [laughs]

Andrew: And I’m glad McGonagall and Dumbledore worked together to fix the situation, and I wanted to highlight that they did fix the situation behind the scenes! And I just wanted to point this out because this underscores a previous point I think I’ve made in recent weeks, that Dumbledore is doing stuff behind the scenes. He’s not sitting there twiddling his thumbs in his office, doing absolutely nothing.

Eric: I think he’s mostly doing that. I think he’s mostly twiddling his thumbs, then occasionally somebody is loud enough that he has to pay attention.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: I think his hands are tied to some extent, though, in all of this. I mean, we all know he’s a very smart man; I think he’s very cautious in terms of playing his hand.

Andrew: Yeah, and he doesn’t want to rock the boat too much.

Eric: He’s absolutely… yes, he is a “Pick your battles” kind of guy, for sure. It just shows what’s really going on here, blatant favoritism, blatant sabotaging of the people that Umbridge doesn’t like are getting punished. And Dumbledore, much like he did with Harry’s trial, showed up, said his bit, and proved that Umbridge did not have a leg to stand on, and it’s only the last time because now there’s an Educational Decree giving Umbridge the authority that she did not have earlier when she tried to not reinstate Gryffindor. So it’s a real shame, because essentially she made Dumbledore get involved about this small thing, and it actually ended up pointing… she credits McGonagall with pointing out to her how deficient her power was before, so what are you going to do?

Micah: I don’t know.

Laura: Yeah, well, and that’s her thing, right? It’s like she comes up against one barrier, “Oh, I’m not allowed to do that here? Okay, let me just go pass another Educational Decree and we’ll fix that.” I mean, that’s the approach.

Micah: And the consequence in all of this is not just detention; it’s a lifetime ban from playing Quidditch at Hogwarts, which seems so extreme. [laughs] And the reason why I said this is this is a physical altercation following a sporting event where Beaters and Bludgers are a real thing.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And Andrew, you said this before: Fights happen in sports all the time. I think suspension, sure. Detention, okay. But banning them for life? I couldn’t even probably point to a situation in sports where that’s happened.

Andrew: Does the wizarding world…? I guess they do; they have a judicial branch. I feel like this is one of those things that if it got challenged in the court, it wouldn’t actually pass. And the reason I say this is because… lifetime ban from an Educational Decree? When Harry leaves Hogwarts, he’s still banned from Quidditch? Is that what we’re made to believe here? [laughs]

Eric: Look, the punishment has to fit the crime! It has to be a proportional response. She absolutely cannot affect post-academic career. In Umbridge’s capacity as High Inquisitor of Hogwarts, she can’t touch Harry after he leaves Hogwarts. She can’t do it, at the very least.

Laura: Right, but she wants to make it a lifetime ban so that he can never come back as an adult and play Quidditch there. [laughs]

Andrew: And I think just from a storytelling perspective, the extreme decision here, a lifetime ban is meant to just be emblematic of how powerful Umbridge thinks she is. She is all knowing. She is all powerful. She can do anything, including lifetime bans from anything.

Micah: But she’s picking on students at the end of the day. That’s what’s so comical about all this. She thinks she has all this power, and I guess in a way she does, but she’s getting her highs off of making students’ lives miserable, kids’ lives miserable.

Eric: Well, she doesn’t have a lot of maturity. That’s just where she is.

Laura: No. I mean, it’s clear she’s a miserable person. I mean, if you make your entire life’s mission about making other people’s lives miserable, there’s probably something to that. Call is coming from inside the house.

Micah: Yeah, she could use something, but we won’t talk about that.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Fred. Fred also receives a lifetime ban, though he did not participate.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: You can’t… look, and he even…

Micah: Is she afraid that he’s going to try and switch places with George?

Andrew: Ooh, actually, that’s a great theory. That makes sense.

Eric: Oh, I love that. That’s even worse! Legally, from a legal perspective, if he didn’t do the crime, he can’t do the time!

Andrew: Yeah, but see, Umbridge is right. He is going to do some sort of crime next Quidditch game to get back at her banning George.

Eric: Oh, you can’t… but even if that were true, you can’t imprison people before they do the crime!

Andrew: I’m with Umbridge here. Fred absolutely would have retaliated in some way at the next Quidditch game, if not sooner.

Eric: He says as much.

Andrew: And by pre-banning, let’s call it, Fred from Quidditch for life as well, this gets ahead of the issue and keeps him behaving better than he would otherwise, because maybe there’s a part of Fred and George and Harry that think, “Well, if I stay on their good side for X amount of time, she’ll un-ban us from Quidditch.”

Eric: This is as bad a call as putting all the Slytherins in the dungeons.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Absolutely meritless behavior, prejudiced and just not at all within reason.

Andrew: She’s doing them a favor, though, because by being banned from Quidditch, now they have time to work on their business.

Eric: Now they can try and make her life more miserable.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Malicious compliance.

Micah: Well, I do want to talk about that in just a minute, but let’s talk about Crabbe for a second, because when we’re talking about punishing students for things that they did during – actually, not even during – after this match was over, Crabbe only ends up receiving lines for assaulting Harry with a Bludger after the match was over, so it’s very clear how punishment is being distributed here.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Because if I were McGonagall, I would have strongly advocated that if Harry, Fred, and George are being banned, Crabbe should be as well.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: No reason why he should not have received the same punishment.

Eric: But the newest Educational Decree makes it so that Umbridge, who has the supreme authority, doesn’t ever need to be challenged on these wrong calls. She doesn’t ever need to come up with some kind of rubric for how a more extreme behavior warrants a more extreme kind of retaliation; she just 100% gets to choose and decide what the punishment is, and so she’s playing favorites.

Andrew: I’m also blaming Hooch here, too, because shouldn’t she have blown the whistle on Crabbe and punished him in some way? Surely she has authority too. I know the game was over, but…

Laura: Yeah, and we have seen her do that before too.

Micah: She was dealing with him, though, when the melee broke out, and she’s the one who actually hits Harry with the spell that gets him off of Draco.

Andrew: So all the more reason for her to punish him.

Micah: Aren’t there other referees too?

Eric: Well, because… yeah, there should be a lot more refs in this game, a game with 14 players that are all on their broom…

Andrew: In a huge field. I mean, in football, right, Micah? I mean, all the referees on the field.

Micah: So many referees.

Andrew: Oh my goodness, so many.

Micah: Well, Umbridge ends up deflating the entire mood of Gryffindor House despite their win over Slytherin, and Ron comes back; he’s deflated, and he’s been out traipsing through the snow. We talked about his anxiety earlier; despite them winning, he just thinks he did a terrible job and let everybody down because he let a couple goals through. I say, what did Oliver Wood do in his first match as Keeper? Let’s compare.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I’m sure Ron didn’t do that bad of a job at the end of the day. But I wanted to wrap up by asking – and this actually ties into the point that was brought up earlier about Fred and George getting to spend more time on their joke shop – by banning Harry from Quidditch, does Umbridge unknowingly give him more time to plot against her?

Eric: And more incentive.

Micah: Well, definitely more incentive.

Andrew: Oops! But even if she was worried that he would be doing such a thing, I think she’s feeling pretty confident at this point that she could catch him plotting against her.

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew: That’s also her ego.

Eric: Right, she’s power hungry.

Laura: Yeah. Well, now that she has access to the fireplaces and she’s intercepting people’s mail, I think she probably is feeling a little overconfident and like she has eyes everywhere. She’s not that clever. She’s really not.

Micah: No.

Laura: That’s why the power grab.

Micah: All right, well, that wraps up the Chapter by Chapter discussion.

Andrew: Oh, but Micah, give us some good news. I can’t take it anymore!

Micah: [whispers] He’s back.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: [gasps] Already? I thought that happened later.

Micah: Hagrid.

Andrew: Oh, oh, oh.

Micah: Who are you talking about?

Andrew: Oh, goodness. Okay.

Micah: The one saving grace at the end of the chapter is that Hagrid has returned. The light is on in his cabin.

Eric: Well, that could be anybody feeding the dog.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s true. That’s actually very true.

Eric: No, Hermione leaps to a completely unsubstantiated conclusion. She gives Harry false hope. What if it is just Grubbly-Plank?

Micah: Did anybody else have the feeling, though, that I did when reading this, given everything that went on in this chapter, are you almost like, “Who cares?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, actually, I was so relieved. I was so excited for some good news, yeah.

Micah: Were you? Okay.

Eric: For me, it hits right. It hits exactly as it should…

Andrew: “Who cares?” Ouch.

Eric: … which is like, “Oh, a friend of ours that we were genuinely worried about is going to be okay.”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and think about reading this for the first time, just clearly Hagrid has been a major presence in this series thus far, and for him to be gone for so long is worrying, not just for the trio, but for the reader too.

Micah: That’s true.

Andrew: So to have him back amidst all this bad news, it’s comforting for everybody.

Eric: Grawp absolutely sucks, but Hagrid is our fiercest ally.

Micah: For sure.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: All right, getting to our MVP style question of the week, I wanted to know what is our best guess at what McGonagall wanted to really say to Umbridge in her office with Harry and George present.

Andrew: I’m going to keep this kid-friendly. I think she wanted to say, “See you next Tuesday.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Is that a common saying?

Andrew: Some of our adult listeners might get that. Some might not. Hopefully you understand. [laughs]

Eric: Wow. Okay.

Andrew: I just had to explain to Eric and Micah off-air.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Thank you, I consider myself very enlightened now. I’m very happy with that. Okay, so my McGonagall response to Umbridge; I wrote it in all caps, and I’m going to try and do an impression of Jim Dale doing McGonagall. “DOLORES, I SWEAR, IF YOU HEM-HEM ONE MORE TIME I WILL SHOVE A LOZENGE SO FAR DOWN YOUR THROAT THAT THE FARTHEST REACHES OF CORNELIUS FUDGE’S POWER WOULDN’T BE ABLE TO GET IT OUT!” I don’t know if that was all over the place.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s good, and a great analogy, too.

Micah: That was good.

Laura: Yep, well done.

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: I decided to go with, “I can turn into a cat, and the possibilities are endless.”

Laura: Oh, man.

Andrew: [laughs] Scratch her up quite a bit will be my guess?

Micah: Cut her throat.

Laura: Or no, come into her office and one at a time, nudge each of those cat plates off the wall while making direct eye contact.

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: Eric, you know what I’m talking about. [laughs]

Eric: I know exactly what you’re talking about. Oh, McGonagall the menace. Just be awful.

Laura: And I said “Evanesco,” as in she should Evanesco Umbridge.

Micah: Yes, send her to poop mountain.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Send her where she belongs.

Micah: She’s the biggest piece of [censored] in the series.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That’s where she belongs. Good call, Laura.

Eric: This chapter really makes me think that there’s always an opportunity for a good offensive Silencio, right? Just literally silence an opponent; just literally make their voice go away for a little bit.


Lynx Line


Micah: All right, well, it is now time for the Lynx Line, where we asked our patrons: If you had to chant something at Malfoy to distract him while playing Quidditch, what would it be? So turning the tables here on him, and boy, did we get some good answers.

Andrew: Rachel actually didn’t have a chant, but she had another great idea. She said,

“I wouldn’t yell anything, but I’d slip a ferret into the Slytherin Quidditch locker room and arrange for as many people in the stands to have ferrets as well. Bring back some memories for Draco.”

Yeah, trigger him.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Ah, yes. Nothing like triggering past traumas, yes.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Zachary says,

“Always with two goons at his side
Never got a motorbike ride
Quite the thorn in one’s side
Harry Potter’s itch

Never can catch the Snitch
Daddy’s money can’t buy a win
Always caught in Harry’s tailwind
Harry Potter’s itch

Nepotism at its best
He enjoys a Malkin’s sweater vest
Never gets past the test
Harry Potter’s itch

Daddy’s money can buy the team
But not talent, so it seems
That’s why Gryffindors all beam
Harry Potter’s itch

Harry Potter’s itch
Harry Potter’s itch
Draco cannot catch the Snitch
Harry Potter’s itch”

Andrew and Laura: Wow.

Laura: Bravo.

Micah: That was really well done.

Eric: I’m honestly surprised to have avoided the B-word in all of those rhymes.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, I think it was implied. I read it as being implied.

Andrew: Ohh, okay.

Micah: Maybe that is not necessarily what Zach was intending, but it works.

Eric: Bravo, Zach.

Micah: Jen says, to the tune of, “Hey, Mickey”… do you want to do this together?

[Eric beatboxes]

Micah: “Hey, Malfoy, you’re so fine. You’re so fine, you blow my mind. Hey, Malfoy.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: “Accompanied by Slytherin cheerleaders and a fireworks display from Weasley Wizard Wheezes. Sometimes you need to play into people’s egos to distract them.”

Laura: Oh, that was so good.

Andrew: Great, now that’s going to be running through my head for the rest of the night.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Hey, Malfoy, you’re so fine. You’re so fine, you blow my mind. Hey, Malfoy! Hey, Malfoy!”

Micah: Can I just say, speaking of Malfoy, don’t you think, Andrew, we need the Tom Felton reaction video to what happened on The White Lotus this past weekend?

Andrew: Yes, definitely.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: There’s a Tom Felton reaction video to that?

Micah: No, we need one is what I’m saying.

Laura: There should be.

Andrew: Oh, oh, oh. Okay, yes, agreed.

Laura: So he can be like, “Father, what have you done?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Father, you have forsaken me.”

Micah: “A peacock escaped from the Manor.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Cassandra says,

“Bottle blonde, bottle blonde
Limp wand, limp wand
Malfoy, Malfoy
Mama’s boy, Mama’s boy”

Andrew: Nice.

Laura: That’s pretty to the point. I like it.

Andrew: Xavier said,

“Malfoy, Malfoy, always loud
But your skills should make you far from proud
You think you’re clever, think you’re sly
But your Seeker moves? They say goodbye!

You can’t catch the Snitch; you’re too slow
Your broom’s more wobbly than you’d like to show
You talk a big game, you boast and jeer
But everyone knows your Quidditch skills instill fear

So keep flying high, keep acting grand
But we know you’ll never take that final stand
Malfoy, Malfoy, you’ve had your day
But in the end, you’ll fade away!”

Laura: Why am I imagining a Thanos snap of Draco just fading away?

Eric: Oh, that would be cool. “Mr. Stark, I don’t feel so good.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: James has another rhyme.

“Malfoy, Malfoy cannot win
Despite the gold his dad puts in
Fancy broomsticks don’t mean shit
When you’re such an amateur git
So taunt the others, don’t hold up
You’ll never win the Quidditch Cup”

Micah: Looks like I got another “Hey Mickey” here. [laughs] Gilderoy Fangirl says,

“Hey, Draco, you’re full of slime. So full of slime, it blows my mind. Hey, Draco.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “Oh, Draco, what a pity you can’t understand
You’re a nepo baby, not a Quidditch man
Oh, Nepo, it’s not pretty
You have zero fans
It’s guys like you, Nepo
You’re going to lose, Nepo, lose, Nepo
It’s what you do, Nepo”

Laura: I love that one. And our last one comes from Kayla, who says,

“Malfoy, Malfoy thinks he’s so coy
Thinks he’s that boy that all girls enjoy
Malfoy, Malfoy thinks he’ll bring joy
By being that boy to catch the golden toy
Malfoy, Malfoy, we shall destroy
For being that boy who only annoys”

Andrew: Well done.

Eric: We have some very good scriveners.

Laura: Yeah, well done, y’all.

Micah: Amazing. “Hey Mickey” seems to be the song that suits Draco so well.

Laura: Right?

Andrew: [laughs] “Hey Draco.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for those contributions, and don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can email or send a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Please do send them in as soon as possible, because our next Muggle Mail episode will be Episode 700! And next week we’ll discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 20, “Hagrid’s Tale,” because Hagrid is back, and we’re all very excited, Micah.

Micah: And he got a tail.

Andrew: And he got a tail, wow.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Not a pig tail.

Laura: Max that.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: The abbreviation DA may most commonly refer to this position as chief prosecutor in a United States criminal case. What is the position with those initials that has a history stretching back to 1813? The correct answer, District Attorney. Some people said Defense Attorney; that’s wrong. District Attorney. 90% of folks with the correct answer said they did not look this up. Hey, we got an easy one. And this week’s winners are A Healthy Breeze; ADA Casey Novak… dun-dun.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Christa B; Deep Cover Auror; Dumbledore’s Rizzler Potion; Hedwig’s reproachful look at Harry; Jordan Meisner-Davis; Kennah Dawn; Legal Eagle; Navy Electronics Technician; Nerdy Gryffindor; Peter Johnson; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; Through Goes Hamilton; Tofu Tom (IS BACK)…

Micah: Yes.

Eric: And finally, Try Pleading the Fifth on Veritaserum. Wow, fun usernames as well this week. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What ice hockey player had a rule named after him – this was in 2008 – after he displayed unsportsmanlike tactics in an attempt to intimidate goalie Martin Brodeur by waving his hands and hockey stick in his face? Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website checking out transcripts or must listens or anything that you might be doing there, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: I can’t believe we didn’t call Quidditch “Quizzitch” once during the discussion today. That seemed inevitable, because it tends to happen on other episodes.

Eric: Yeah, a lot.

Andrew: Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam, Eric, and I are looking at what made the Hunger Games trilogy so popular, and also looking ahead to the upcoming spinoff book Sunrise on the Reaping, all about Haymitch during the second Quarter Quell. Very much looking forward to that new book being released this week. And on Millennial, we hosted a listener feedback episode where listeners would confess some of their secrets to us, and we tried to help them out as best as we Millennials can. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you, and there’s lots of great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear. And also, I plugged Patreon earlier; that is the best way to help us out. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can become a MuggleCast member and get access to bonus MuggleCast episodes. You can get ad-free episodes, you can get early access to episodes, and lots of other magical perks, all at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Lastly, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please send an owl to your Harry Potter-loving friends and say, “Hey, check out MuggleCast. They’re also talking about the new Harry Potter TV show that’s happening.” And please cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: “Oh Malfoy, you’re so fine. You make…” wait, no, I don’t want to do that one. Hold on. “Hey, Malfoy, you’re so fine. You’re so fine, you blow my mind. Hey, Malfoy.” Bye, everyone.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Finally got that beat down.

Transcript #696

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #696, Expelliarmy! (OOTP Chapter 18, Dumbledore’s Army)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. We are your Harry Potter friends and your weekly ride into the fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Andrew: And this week, put on your ballet shoes and meet us on the seventh floor of Hogwarts, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.” And to help us with this week’s discussion, we’re joined by our podcasting partner, Pam! Podcasting partner, Pam. Welcome back, Pam.

Pam Gocobachi: Loving that alliteration.

Andrew: Cohost of What the Hype?! and Millennial. Nice to have you back on the show to talk Harry Potter with us.

Pam: Nice to be back with you all.

Andrew: I consider Pam the biggest Harry Potter fan out of the five MuggleCasters, if we’re including Pam, because she has the most different editions of the Harry Potter books.

Pam: You bring this up every once in a while.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: Listeners, as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By becoming a MuggleCast member, you’re helping us conjure up episodes of this indie podcast, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast. We release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon, and in these we have fun talking about different aspects of the Potter fandom outside of Chapter by Chapter. And in a bonus episode coming this week, I am very proud to present my episode by episode plan for the Harry Potter TV show.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: As a teaser for my Episode 1 pitch. Let me tell you all right now it’s going to instantly win over longtime Harry Potter fans, because it’s going to be very different from how the movies open, and it’s just going to prove to us that they had good reason to do the Harry Potter TV series.

Micah: I would sign up for bonus MuggleCast just for that pitch alone.

Andrew: Right? Right? This could be a long bonus MuggleCast. I’m going to try not to make it a long one, but…

Pam: Smart of you to put it behind the paywall, too, because you don’t want to work for free.

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t want Warner Bros. stealing this!

Pam: WB has got to pay you. [laughs]

Andrew: That’s a great point.

Micah: Well, I think it would be a fantastic idea if this goes the length of, let’s say, two bonus MuggleCasts; then I don’t have to plan one for later in the month.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: It’s true; sometimes they do double duty.

Andrew: Listeners, be sure to check that out. And after you pledge to our Patreon, you can actually listen to bonus MuggleCast episodes and to ad-free episodes of MuggleCast right within your favorite podcast app, so it’s very easy to enjoy this bonus content just like you do regular MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: All right, now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.”

Eric: Aw, yeah. It’s a little bit of hope cracking on the horizon, everybody.

Andrew: [tearfully] Some much needed hope.

Eric: Some much needed hope. We last discussed Chapter 18 on Episode 454 of MuggleCast; it was titled “Drinky Winky.” Gee, I wonder why.

Micah: That might be my favorite episode title ever.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: [singing to the tune of Teletubbies] “Drinky Winky, Dipsy, Laa-Laa, Po. Teletubbies…”

Eric: Oh my God.

[Pam laughs]

Eric: And Po. Well, here is a fun little clip from that episode.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 454.

Andrew: I was wondering, has anyone ever been guilty of encouraging someone to do something so you could live vicariously through them? I always think of gambling.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s a lot of fun to watch people gamble, because it’s not your money.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And then once you start playing, you’re like, “Oh, never mind.”

Eric: I have provided that service for others, where I gamble and lose money for their entertainment. Yes, I have done it.

Micah: I’m not going to Vegas with you, Andrew.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: This is a red flag right away. You’re going to be on the roulette table.

Andrew: Yep. Let me watch you play.

Micah: You’re just going to want to put the little chips on the board for me and then hope for the best.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: Did you pick that clip, Eric, because I now live in Vegas?

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Eric: There were several reasons for picking that clip, but yes, that’s probably one of them.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: That’s funny.

Eric: I’m wondering, Andrew, tell us, are you still up to no good with that? Are you still encouraging others to gamble?

Andrew: [laughs] Maybe not encourage others to gamble, but I still prefer to live vicariously through others and watch them gamble rather than play myself.

Eric: Smart, smart.

Pam: Plus, isn’t your favorite phrase “You gotta bet big to win big”?

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.

Pam: That’s very enabling. [laughs]

Eric: It’s very coercive, yeah. Oh, man.

Andrew: I want to see a Harry Potter slot machine. That hasn’t happened yet.

Pam: Oh, I’m sure it’s somewhere at the MGM.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, I’ll get looking.

Micah: I feel like it’s got to be somewhere. That’s the one thing we didn’t do when I was in Vegas, Andrew. We didn’t go to any casinos.

Andrew: When you’re a local, you don’t play. I mean, I would have happily taken you, though.

Micah: I think I was coming from a hotel that had plenty of slot machines in there if I really wanted to. But it was a work trip, so you try not to dabble in that.

Andrew: Yeah, be professional.

Eric: Always stay a few thousand dollars behind your boss. That’s the rule.

[Everyone laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: But anyway, I mentioned this chapter has some hope to offer us, however, not right away, unfortunately. We have a lot of indecisiveness on the part of the trio, and Hermione in particular. So she is now convinced that Hedwig was intercepted by Umbridge and that it’s been basically a whole false pretense to come up with the lie about Dungbombs so that Filch could get at Harry’s correspondence, which is a huge violation. And of course, it’s under the guise of keeping the school safe, secure, but what bothers me about it is Umbridge is very much a character that does not act in good faith, and she will really roll out all the tricks she has in order to do something that is illegal or very heavily not above board.

Andrew: Yeah, well, and this reminds me of how here in the Muggle world, post-9/11 we had the Patriot Act, in which it became easier for the government to start tapping our phones. And there was reason for it, but it also made a lot of people rightly uncomfortable that it suddenly became easier for us to be surveilled. The thing about this situation in the book is that Umbridge has a false pretense, whereas that one in the Muggle world was more justified, maybe not entirely so, though.

Eric: Yeah, so it’s a real invasion of privacy in general, but it’s done under some level of justification.

Micah: Yeah. And I wanted to look this up, because I remember when growing up, I would always hear, “Don’t open somebody else’s mail; it’s illegal.” And it turns out that it is true here in the US, that opening up somebody else’s mail is a federal crime. It’s called obstruction of correspondence, and it’s a serious felony that could lead to you ending up in jail. And so I figure if you layer on animal cruelty to this, Umbridge is really getting herself into some hot water if she were to be caught for doing any of these things. But I did want to ask, is there any kind of similar crime in the UK?

Andrew: I looked into this for you, Micah, and actually, yes, it is also illegal over there. Under the Postal Services Act of 2000, specifically Section 84 of the Act makes it an offense to intentionally delay, open, or interfere with someone else’s mail without reasonable excuse. So actually, intentionally delay mail? Didn’t Dobby do that in an earlier book? [laughs]

Pam: Damn, everyone’s going to jail.

Eric: Oh, but that happened before 2000! It happened before…

Andrew: Ohh. Ah, you’re a good lawyer for Dobby. [laughs]

Pam: Loophole.

Eric: It wasn’t illegal in 1992.

Andrew: Maybe they were reading the Harry Potter books and they were like, “Wait, that doesn’t sound right. We need to make this illegal.” [laughs]

Pam: I wonder if the same rate, though, extends to schoolchildren at a private school, or if that would be another loophole where they would say, “For the safety of everyone involved, we have to reserve the right to check correspondence.”

Eric: Oh, that’s a heck of a thing.

Micah: Could extend that to the Dursleys as well. Feel like we’ve talked a little bit about the fact that they were keeping Harry’s mail from him.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Maybe the first…

Pam: I mean, he was ripping it up, right? Uncle Vernon. Not necessarily opening it, technically, so maybe that’s how he’d get off. [laughs]

Andrew: But also just delaying Harry from being able to open it by trying to hide them and rip them up.

Micah: But I will say, I love that we found this connective thread for the Dursleys, Dobby, and Umbridge. They’re all very much headed to the slammer.

[Andrew laughs]

Pam: Maybe they can share a cell.

Andrew: The unexpected connection between Dobby and Umbridge.

Micah: Cell mates.

Eric: Yeah, so we have all of this evidence now – or it seems like evidence – that Umbridge is committing these wrongs against the students, and yet, this group that they’re building in order to combat this stuff is currently giving Hermione second thoughts. She actually has regret. She asks them, “Are we doing the right thing?” And there’s a funny moment with Ron where he’s kind of exasperated about it; he’s like, “This was your idea, Hermione.” But it’s just clear to me that stuff is really getting real, and Hermione is feeling two things that she is, which is young and vulnerable, and like a student, so she really feels powerless to affect any kind of change on a scale that’s going to make it worth it, given their sacrifice.

Pam: Well, it’s one thing, too, to be responsible for yourself and for maybe your two best friends, since it’s an unspoken thing that the trio are in it together. But it’s another thing to be responsible for 25 other students, right? And I think that’s where she starts to get cold feet, because it’s not necessarily about doing the right thing; it’s about doing right by those people that didn’t maybe necessarily understand what they were signing up for in terms of facing the wrath.

Andrew: Yeah, I think the size of the group is daunting, but I think this is normal for most of us when we’re embarking on something new, and certainly something that might be a little risky. So I think Hermione is grappling with several things here, and it’s a good lesson for readers, seeing somebody experience this doubt. Hermione tends to be a pretty brave person, and for her to hit this wall is a good bit of character development.

Micah: Yeah, it’s the weight of consequence, too, because she doesn’t know what’s going to happen. And certainly, if they’re caught, they could get in a lot of trouble, and that’s not something that I think she’s really prepared for. It’s one thing to get in trouble with Dumbledore; it’s another thing to get in trouble with the Ministry.

Andrew: Right, the big scary police.

Eric: The po-po. Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I think, though, from a reader’s perspective, especially because we’ve read this book before, we know that Dumbledore’s Army does create positive change for everyone. We know it’s a good thing; it’s adding value. The characters at this stage can’t possibly know that; they won’t even have the first lesson until the back half of this chapter. But knowing that it is such a force for positive change, and tracking that, I feel like nothing short of the spells they learn in this year end up saving those kids’ lives two years out in the Battle of Hogwarts that’s coming, and we see, I believe, a lot of the students using those types of spells that they got during the DA to survive during Voldemort’s assault on Hogwarts. So it’s, I guess, heartening… or actually harrowing, sad, to see Hermione so uncertain, because she single-handedly, with the help of Harry and Ron, have created something that’s going to really matter to people; they just don’t know it yet.

Andrew: Yeah, but they do know it even by the end of the chapter. The chapter ends with Hermione saying to Harry, “That was really, really good, Harry,” and Ron backs her up, says, “Yeah, it was!” enthusiastically. They’re experiencing that successful relief, maybe you can call it, at the end of this chapter after the first meeting. They’re over the hill; they’re over the fear of putting together this group, and they can see the effects, and – like Eric, you’re saying – in time, they’ll look back and be even more proud that they did decide to go through with this despite that initial fear.

Eric: Is there a moral lesson here? As far as…

Andrew: Conquer your fears!

Eric: Don’t give up; you’re doing the right thing.

Pam: I think you could actually probably link it back to… what is it? In what book did Dumbledore say that “We must all face the choice between doing what is right and what is easy”? So she’s doing the right thing, but it’s not easy for her to go through with it.

Andrew: Yeah, that was in Goblet of Fire.

Micah: There’s definitely some anticipatory anxiety going on.

Eric: Yeah. Now, something that I think is a low blow is either Harry calls Hermione out on it, or she outright says it, that Sirius is a huge reason why she’s having second doubts, because he’s a reckless godfather.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I can barely talk about this. It hurts so bad.

Pam: Aww.

Eric: But just because he is feeling useless and stuck at his home does not mean that wanting to do something to oppose the Ministry is a bad plan, right? They’ve gotten this far because they see the need. So yeah, you can question someone’s motives, but don’t just assume that because they want what you want, that what you want is wrong.

Micah: That’s a great point, yeah. With Hermione, though, would she expect any different from Sirius? This is right up his alley.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: She should have anticipated this, or not been surprised by this. Crackpot theory: Sirius was actually trying to do some reverse psychology here. He actually didn’t want them to do this, but said he loves the idea just to screw with Hermione and get her to doubt herself.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Eric: I love that headcanon. That works for me.

Pam: I just think, too, she’s seen the slow decline of just how reckless he’s been, because even if you look back to Sirius’s advice to Harry in Goblet of Fire, he’s the one that’s telling Harry not to do anything rash, like, “Think about what you’re going to do before you actually do it.” And that’s a big juxtaposition going from that to him trying to egg Harry on and being like, “Oh, the risk is what would have been fun for your father.” That’s kind of like a slap in the face. I think Hermione, she sees it more… and I think that rereading this for the purposes of this show through an adult lens, I see why she is worried about that. But as a teenager, I read this and I was like, “Yeah, why are you being so mean to Sirius?” I get it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s the problem; I’m still in my teenage mental state, going, “Why is everyone hating on Sirius?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s the big takeaway. Pam is calling you a teen. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Which, hey, whatever.

Pam: Teenage petulance. [laughs]

Micah: I think perhaps that Hermione is reacting less to Sirius and more to Molly, and the message that Sirius gives the trio from Molly, specifically to Ron. But I’m sure Hermione doesn’t want to be in a position where she feels like she’s disappointing Mrs. Weasley.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s going to have to see Molly again, Mrs. Weasley again. So yeah, I think that gives her some pause. Though, Hermione does just straight up say in this chapter that it is Sirius who’s giving her pause, but it’s probably both forces. It’s disappointing her best friend’s mom, who she is going to have to see again at some point, and Sirius encouraging this devious behavior.

Micah: Right.

Pam: She really does carry a lot more burden than we realize, I think.

[Micah and Pam laugh]

Pam: And this argument specifically is making me realize that she probably worries more than Harry and Ron combined, and it weighs on her.

Andrew: Yeah, and she was responsible for this idea. I mean, she and Ron pitched it to Harry, so if they did get in serious trouble, this was her fault. This wasn’t Harry’s fault.

Eric: That’s a fair point.

Micah: They all agreed, though, so equal responsibility. Her idea, but they’re co-conspirators. I did think a little bit about this, though, and how Hermione still very much puts trust in authority figures, but gets very apprehensive around advice from those she considers to be more reckless in nature. And it’s not just Sirius in this chapter; we see it a little bit later on with Dobby, and it’s only when Harry validates the Room of Requirement via Dumbledore that Hermione relaxes.

Eric: Right.

Micah: But I thought to myself, let’s not forget: If the Order knows about Dumbledore’s Army via Mundungus, Dumbledore knows about Dumbledore’s Army, and he’s not stopping it. So Hermione should feel validated in her initial decision to form this group.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The fact that Dumbledore hasn’t bust down the door.

Pam: That’s a really good point.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s some big brain thinking. I love that. That’s a really good point.

Micah: Thanks.

Andrew: It’s too bad nobody said that to to her, but oh well.

Eric: Yeah. So one of the things that happens right at the middle of the chapter is that Harry’s scar hurts. And I think when they’re going back and forth, if you split this chapter in halves, the first half is, “Did we do the right thing?” The second half is, “Hell yeah, we did the right thing.” But right at the middle, Harry’s scar hurts, and I think this was really poignant because it showcases what the threat is. It reminds readers, because it’s been a little while since we’ve gotten this level of insight into Voldemort, and just reminds the audience what’s at stake maybe, I think.

Andrew: Yeah, why they are assembling this group.

Eric: Yeah, ultimately it’s easy to get hung up on this whole Umbridge crap, but the real bad guy is out there.

Andrew: Yeah. Ariane says, “Hermione is so used to following/trusting authority. Don’t we all have massive doubts when we break out of our norm?”

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And when we do, when we do break out of that shell, and then we crush it – like we see by the end of this chapter, Hermione is very pleased with how it went – you just feel elated. You’re like, “I got over that hill, I broke out of my comfort zone, and this is going to pay off.”

Eric: I think that’s part of growing up, to your point. And this is not intended as a hit piece on Hermione, though she should be nicer to Sirius.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He’s not going to be alive very much longer, so I feel confident saying that.

Micah: For nothing else, for her cat who loves Sirius.

Eric: Yeah! Aww.

Andrew: Think of Crookshanks, Hermione. I mean, some people put a lot of weight in your animal loving another human. I know somebody who’s always like, “Oh, my dog loves this person.”

Pam: Good judge of character.

Andrew: Good judge of character! So Hermione should be looking towards Crookshanks and trusting.

Pam: I mean, Crookshanks was after Wormtail before they knew he was Wormtail, so he’s got a good track record.

Eric: It’s a fair point. Although, I’m debating whether to say this because it undercuts the “Sirius should get more trust” argument, but as far as a cat goes, it’s kind of easy to win them over as long as you have food.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That is true.

Eric: Good judge of character, or simply providing their basic needs? An open question.

Micah: Martha was basically my best friend once I had those little treats in my hand.

Eric: That’s what I’m saying; it’s why we give them to people. She’s a little nervous otherwise.

Andrew: Micah, give yourself more credit. All animals love you, as you saw in my home as well.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Literally.

Micah: Yeah, I will never forget it.

Eric: So you did have a question here, Micah, about the Horcrux.

Micah: Yeah, and you were talking about Harry’s scar, and I thought it was interesting how he’s starting to be able to differentiate between when Voldemort is feeling certain emotions. He talks with Ron about how when his scar was hurting with Umbridge, it was because Voldemort was happy, and now his scar is hurting him because Voldemort is angry. And there’s this line in this chapter, which I think is so important and probably so easily glossed over by us as readers going through this on an initial read, and it said, “What was this weird connection between them, which Dumbledore had never been able to explain satisfactory?”

Andrew: And yet, Ron encourages Harry to go to Dumbledore with this information, and he says, “No, Dumbledore already knows,” and yet Harry is realizing that he is able to explain it now.

Eric: Yeah, these two have beef. It’s not going to get resolved until a particular…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s not really beef; it’s just an adult ignoring a child and his needs.

Andrew: I think Harry has beef with Dumbledore, but not the other way around.

Eric: That’s kind of what I’m saying.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: Dumbledore should not… I don’t think Dumbledore is surprised that Harry has beef with him, but he could be doing the extra mile to check in with Harry, except he’s deliberately avoiding him for the reasons that we know.

Micah: And this is the second time so far that we’ve seen where Harry has been encouraged to go speak to an authority figure, and he’s chosen not to.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: So maybe we should keep this in mind when we try to put all the blame on Dumbledore. I mean, it sounds like Harry has some issues to work through as well. It’s a two-way street.

Micah: Well, because Dumbledore has been ignoring him for the past several months. Won’t even talk to the kid.

Eric: Won’t even look at him.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “I’m very busy. I’m very busy.”

Micah: You’re busy? What are you doing?

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Oh, I’m busy. Just don’t worry about it. All in due course, you’ll know.”

Eric: He’s counting chamber pots.

Andrew: [laughs] “How many have I not filled up just yet?”

Eric: So now it’s the part of the chapter where everyone who’s been reading the book up to this point can finally breathe, because something finally happens that goes right.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Dobby comes to the rescue, both with a fully functional and repaired Hedwig, but…

Andrew: That criminal Dobby. Mail-stealing Dobby.

Eric: I mean, I think Grubbly-Plank entrusted him to give her to Harry. I guess she knew he was going that way. But yeah, so basically, back in the common room, Harry – who is not confiding in Dumbledore – does have a flash, a stroke of genius, and he decides to ask Dobby, “Hey, do you know a place where we can practice DADA?” And Dobby does. And what’s interesting here – it’s kind of a blink and you’ll miss it comment, like the one we highlighted up above – but Dobby says he heard tell of the Room of Requirement from the other Hogwarts house-elves, and I find that interesting. Obviously, we know Dobby has been using the Room of Requirement to help Winky out, but I think largely the way that it’s presented during this reread, I’m thinking, is that mostly the elves know about this. Very few students… we see a few humans talk about it; Dumbledore has mentioned it. Fred and George are like, “Oh yeah, this was a closet for us once; we were hiding from Filch.” But on the whole, this seems to be in the domain of the elves. And so I wanted to ask – this is going to be this episode’s Lynx Line question as well – but if the elves do use this room and know about it, what do they use it for? So we’ll get to that in just a moment. But my theory on this matter would be that, because we’ve always heard house-elf magic is different than wizard magic, maybe something about the way that the Room of Requirement works… it seems a bit more open-ended; it seems a bit more, I don’t know, special than all the other standard wizard magic, a rotating staircase, say, that maybe the type of magic that powers the room is closer to elf magic to the point where an elf that’s passing by, or lives in the castle in fair proximity to this room, would get a tingle or a sixth sense that something is going on in that room. So that’s my crazy crackpot theory about elves and why they know about the Room of Requirement.

Micah: I like it. I just like the fact that Hogwarts would have parts of it that were potentially built by non-witches and wizards.

Eric: There’s that too.

Micah: Makes me think about the Fountain of Magical Brethren quite a bit. And the other reason why I really love this is because in Hogwarts Legacy, so much of our relationship with Deek, one of the house-elves, is based in the Room of Requirement.

Eric: Right, it’s where we meet him, it’s where he’s introduced, and it’s something of a refuge for Deek and you.

Andrew: Yeah. No, I do like this theory, Eric. I actually wouldn’t consider it too crackpot that the house-elves are somehow responsible for creating the Room of Requirement, or at least helped build it.

Eric: Well, I appreciate that.

Andrew: One question I had about the room, though – and maybe we could talk about this more as the series progresses – but it’s always bugged me that it seems like only one person or group can use the Room of Requirement at a time, because I would have to think when people start hearing about it, demand can fill up pretty quickly. And if it is the Room of Requirement, and one of its key benefits is that you can basically just walk up to it and be like, “I need help now,” it’ll help you, except when somebody else is already in there? So I just don’t understand how that works. I feel like it’s a flaw of the Room of Requirement for it to not be able to accommodate multiple parties at the same time.

Eric: Well, you can get into the room when somebody else is in the room as long as they didn’t ask it to become inaccessible, the way Draco does in the next book. But the room can’t itself be two things at once, I don’t think.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Or if it is two things at once, the second thing that it is is a broom closet that deters Harry because Draco is in there to use it for…

Andrew: [laughs] Or Dumbledore is peeing in there right now.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, maybe something small it can be two things at once. But yeah, I mean, I agree with you; I think it’s mostly the one thing. And I bet it’s just down to bandwidth. There’s a lot of magic, a lot of powerful magic going on to… that room is waiting on you hand and foot.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Pam: Well, kind of similar to how it can transform back into the same room, even if two different people are thinking for different reasons. Like becoming the hiding room, basically; it’s very clear that students across the ages have had to hide things in Hogwarts at some point or another, and that’s just the room where they go hide things. But everybody’s mind is different, so you would assume that everybody would have their own hiding room; it wouldn’t just be one room. But it seems like it’s pretty… it’s simple but complicated.

Eric: Yeah. So after we find out about this amazing Come and Go Room, Harry does resist the urge to visit it immediately. I’m proud of him, everybody. Very happy.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s growth right there. Resistance. Patience.

Micah: Smart move.

Eric: That is growth. I honestly think it’s Hermione rubbing off. “Are we doing the right thing?”, etc.

Andrew: No, yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, that thought crosses Harry’s mind. And also, he’s tired. He’s like, “Oh, I just need to rest already. I’ll go check out this room later.” No rush; it obviously will be there the next day.

Eric: So we’re about to describe the room at great detail. But something that we pointed out in Episode 454 of MuggleCast way back in 2020 is worth repeating, which is that Chapter 18, which this is, sees Harry using the Marauder’s Map to help him navigate, and students getting to and from their common rooms to the first DA meeting. And the same chapter number, Chapter 18 of Prisoner of Azkaban, is “Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs,” where we get the in-depth look at the creators of the Marauder’s Map.

Andrew: Damn, good catch.

Micah: Connecting those threads.

Eric: Yeah, past us. Nice work.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So here is a short description of where the room is: The entrance to the Room of Requirement is located on the seventh floor across from a tapestry.

Andrew: [gasps] Seventh.

Eric: What’s that?

Andrew: Seven! Seven reference.

Eric: Oh, I didn’t even see that! Yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Really? It’s bolded.

Eric: I did bold it. Yeah, the seventh floor across from a tapestry of Barnabas the Barmy “being clubbed by those trolls,” which is what it’s described as earlier in the chapter, and then later, a “foolish attempt to train trolls for the ballet.” This tapestry is as interesting, if not more, than the Come and Go Room, I think, itself. What is the meaning, if there is any to be discerned, of this tapestry being in front of this room?

Andrew: I did have the same thought as you that there has to be some sort of symbolism going on here, so I was trying to come up with some sort of theory to explain this. Umbridge would see the DA as a foolish attempt to train an army.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: And so in this analogy, Harry and company are the trolls who are attempting to thwart her. But maybe more broadly, I think this portrait could symbolize being able to do whatever you want in this room, something as random or foolish as trying to train trolls for ballet.

Eric: Oh, so sort of “The possibilities are endless”?

Andrew: Yeah, right, exactly.

Eric: Maybe Barnabas used this room in order to try and train the trolls.

Andrew: Oooh.

Pam: I wonder if it’s like… barmy means going mad or going crazy, and you would think you went mad if you found a room and then went back to find that room and it was gone.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, or you’re going mad trying to figure out a solution for your problem, and then here’s the Room of Requirement.

Micah: Part of me thinks that it might be a commentary on the fact that you can’t force things to go against their true nature. So here you have somebody trying to train trolls to do ballet, but yet he’s getting clubbed by all these trolls, because there’s no way they’re going to do ballet. That’s just not in their nature.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It also reminds me of what Hagrid tries to do with his brother later in this book, sort of the futile effort. But I like that, Micah, as far as you can’t change things or their nature. There’s an old parable that’s the scorpion and the frog, which reminds me of that. But yeah, anyway, it’s sort of ironic, also, because you can make the room be whatever you want; we’ve yet to really see too much of a limit on it. So that’s also fun, as you have on one hand, a futile attempt, and on the other side of the same hallway, infinite possibility.

Andrew: Yeah. And this portrait does make an appear in Hogwarts Legacy, by the way. Do we see it in the movie?

Pam: No, it’s the unicorn tapestry that’s in all the rooms.

Andrew: Ahh. [laughs] They just reused something. “We’ll save a little money.”

Pam: Yeah, which I think is a famous tapestry. [laughs]

Andrew: Got it.

Eric: So we mentioned this earlier, but Hermione hears from Harry that Dumbledore mentioned this room. And it’s one of those things where Harry only thinks about it after the fact, like, “Oh, this one time he mentioned it,” and she’s put immediately at ease. And I also have to give her credit, because she does… when they all get in there, she sees the books, the crazy assortment of books; she knows that they made the right choice. And not fully distracted by the books, she’s the one that starts off the meeting with formally electing Harry the leader of the group. And I think Ron scoffs at her, like, “Why are you doing this? Obviously it’s Harry.” Or Cho, even, just scoffs at Hermione. But I think it’s important to get those little things out of the way, because it Zacharias Smith-proofs these proceedings.

Andrew: And also, by appointing Harry the leader, if they get caught, it’s Harry’s problem.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Nice!

Andrew: She washed her hands. “That was the leader. That was his fault. I didn’t think of this idea.” No, I don’t think she had that intention.

Eric: That’s her last personal security.

Andrew: I don’t think that’s what she was thinking. But yeah, it’s important to have a leader for this organization so there isn’t all this infighting, because if the group does explode, if it does blow up, then somebody is going to possibly rat them out. And then, obviously, Hermione has a contingency plan for that, but it’s just good for organization’s sake, and probably, like I said, for her comfort level.

Micah: It’s setting the table and making things very clear from the start, which I think, given some of the folks in this group – as you said, Eric, basically Zachariah Smith-proofing it – is important.

Eric: You just know he would ask, “Wait a minute, why are we listening to him?” Just by the cheek that he gets over them studying Expelliarmus, to which Harry… can we just give Harry the credit that he’s an excellent teacher? It comes very naturally to him; he has a knack. And this idea to teach them the Disarming Charm… somebody like Zacharias might and does scoff at that, but all Harry has to say is, “I actually used this against Voldemort, and it saved my life.”

Andrew: “Any questions?”

Eric: Yeah, how can you argue with that? You can’t.

Andrew: No.

Micah: I’d be like, “Really? That’s what got you away from him?”

Andrew: [laughs] “Some Chosen One you are.”

Eric: Micah has got some Zacharias Smith in him, I think. This is exciting.

Andrew: Micah would have voted for Zacharias to lead Dumbledore’s Army. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: I don’t know about that, but I’d be skeptical of Expelliarmus being the spell that saved your behind from the Dark Lord.

Andrew: No, that’s fair.

Eric: It’s true.

Pam: Would you, if he keeps getting thwarted by a 12-year-old, though? Like, man’s tried to kill him how many times?

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Micah: He should just give up and go live somewhere else in the world at this point.

Eric: I think it’s just that they’re not expecting a defensive charm; they’re expecting to learn an offensive charm.

Micah: True. Well, especially after all of what has gone on in Umbridge’s classes up until this point, to have to start with something like that. It’s like, “Well, that’s not sexy. That’s not appealing. I thought we were coming here for the good stuff.”

Andrew: Right, all the anticipation of Dumbledore’s Army, the secret underground club, and then they start with a disarming spell.

Pam: But I also think it shows that Harry is thinking back on where his defensive skills started. And Lockhart didn’t teach him much, but going to that Dueling Club did teach him that the first step to dueling was learning how to disarm, so everybody has to start somewhere. And it seems to me like maybe only people that went there learned how to disarm, and maybe they just didn’t teach that in the DADA classes.

Micah: The fundamentals, that’s what you have to start with. And he doesn’t know the baseline for how good any of these students are.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point, too.

Pam: Turns out most of them are really bad at disarming, too. [laughs]

Eric: Well, it illustrates the purpose of needing this club.

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: Well, speaking of really bad, something that caught my eye was that everybody starts pairing up to practice Expelliarmus, and Neville is actually the odd man out. He can’t find somebody to partner up with, so Harry ends up practicing with him one on one, which I found interesting because the prophecy could have also been about Neville, and now Neville and Harry are the ones training together in Dumbledore’s Army. I wonder if that was an intentional choice for that reason.

Eric: I like that a lot.

Pam: Me too.

Micah: Aside from the fact that nobody wants to partner with Neville?

Pam: I know.

Andrew: Come on.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: I know, I just insulted him too.

Pam: That part makes me sad where he’s like the last picked in gym class.

Andrew: Yeah, but that’s Neville throughout the series, right? The odd man out.

Pam: I know.

Andrew: Poor guy.

Micah: But who better to pair with than Harry? Than the teacher?

Eric: That’s true.

Andrew: Yeah, but if that happens in school, that means you’re not cool. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, it’s bad.

Andrew: “Andrew is stuck with the teacher. Oh, he’s got no friends.”

Eric: Oh no.

Pam: Sounds like we’ve opened an old wound here. [laughs]

[Andrew fake cries]

Micah: But Eric, going back to what you were saying earlier, I do love how good of a teacher Harry is, and I think a lot of it draws upon his lessons with Lupin.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: Absolutely.

Micah: Lupin is probably the best teacher that Harry has had. He’s learned the most from him, and we see his ability to take so much of what he learned from Lupin and apply it in this book.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really the rubric for which he’s using. And it starts, I think, with empathy, with understanding that people are going to be at different levels, and saying, “Hey, that’s okay.”


Odds & Ends


Micah: So a couple of odds and ends that I picked up on from this chapter: Fred and George, they continue to test their products out on themselves. We’ve talked a lot about Fred and George throughout the course of this book, and the fact that they are not meant for Hogwarts for very much longer. Hermione throws a lot of shade their way, unfairly, but they’re pushing ahead.

Andrew: And their butts aren’t meant for brooms right now, because they’ve got some lumps on them, they said. [shudders]

Micah: It’s like every chapter has a little bit more of information that we don’t want to hear about in terms of the things that these two are experiencing.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But look, if you’re going to open up a joke shop and create all these very cool, different things that students can use to presumably get out of class, good on you for testing them out on yourself first. And then we need to give some kudos to Ginny, because she is the one who names Dumbledore’s Army.

Eric: Aww. I wasn’t going to bring this up; I’m so glad that you did.

Andrew: This makes Eric feel better after Hermione’s rough comments on Sirius earlier.

Eric: Yeah, but I really think it’s a group effort. Yes, Ginny is the one that alters “DA” to mean “Dumbledore’s Army,” but it’s really… they’re lobbying or vollying ideas, and that’s ultimately something they can all be proud of, is that they come up with this title together. It’s symbolic of the work they’re going to be doing together this year.

Andrew: Yeah, and of course, it tees up later on when Dumbledore takes the blame for Dumbledore’s Army.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: Well, it’s such a good name that now we’re going to change it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yes, of course. So what is the best alternate name for the DA? Andrew?

Andrew: Expelli-army!

Eric: That’s so adorable.

Micah: I really like that, actually.

Andrew: Thank you. Thanks.

Micah: That gets my vote.

Eric: Yeah, mine too. I went for basic: Fight Club.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, that works, because you don’t talk about Fight Club.

Eric: That’s right, yeah.

Pam: Right.

Andrew: For any kids who haven’t seen that movie.

Eric: Have you actually seen Fight Club, Andrew?

Andrew: I have, believe it or not.

Pam: Wow.

Andrew: I haven’t seen many movies, but…

Eric: I can’t believe that’s one of the five movies you’ve seen.

[Micah and Pam laugh]

Micah: I went with Potheads.

Andrew: [laughs] Micah. Short for Potter? Potheads?

Micah: Short for Potter.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: That used to be a name. Well, not Potheads, but remember when the media always used to call Harry Potter fans “Potterheads”?

Pam: Yeah, I hated that.

Andrew: I never liked that. Yeah, me too.

Pam: Super cringe.

Eric: Oh, I had a soft spot for it.

Andrew: Aw.

Eric: And Pam, did you have an alternate name?

Pam: I did; I didn’t write it down, but I think I would have gone with the Junior Order. But then I realized that they’re not supposed to talk about the Order either.

[Everyone laughs]

Pam: So maybe it’s not a great name.

Andrew: Umbridge is like, “Hem-hem? Where’s the Senior Order?”

[Pam laughs]

Eric: Oh my God, hilarious.


Lynx Line


Eric: Okay, well, finally, let’s get over to our Lynx Line answers. And again, the question this week was: Obviously Dobby needs the Room of Requirement to help Winky out, but what do the other house-elves use the Room of Requirement for if they do? And I think we’ll go in host order.

Andrew: Rachel said,

“I really want to think of the elves using it for something fun or restorative, but with the exception of Dobby, they’re so work driven. I can see it being a spot to grab extra cleaning supplies, or reference books for new recipes or home care. Maybe a place for elf medicines or a quarantine too, since I can’t imagine house-elves in the hospital wing, though that should totally be a thing.”

Eric: I like that. Carlee says,

“Elf library. Books about anything they might care about. How-to books on home maintenance, fairy tales where the elves are the protagonists, cookbooks, elf history books, even raunchy elf romantasy!”

Andrew: Ooh.

Eric: Not going to be un-thinking that anytime soon.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Next one is from Xavier, who says,

“My guess is that they don’t just use it for one thing. Need cleaning supplies? Boom, broom cupboard. Where to put wizard trash? Boom, elfish garbage dump. Need to let off some steam because your masters are the Malfoys? Boom, room full of oven doors and fire pokers to hit yourself on to your heart’s content. Sick elf? Boom, elfish hospital wing fully equipped with magical ailments for elves, which is the name of Hermione’s new company: Magical Ailments for Elves. This is my last Lynx Line; my membership expires tomorrow. Bye, MuggleCast!”

Andrew: No, Xavier! Come back!

Pam: Aww. [laughs]

Eric: Thank you, Xavier.

Micah: Xavier went boom.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: His membership went boom.

Pam: This one’s from Jen OG, who says,

“The house-elves work hard and use the Room of Requirement to relax by recreating the Eras Tour every night! They all take turns being the star of the show, although nobody can outshine Dobby’s Reputation era!”

Eric: Wow, I love how creative that is.

Andrew: Pam is a huge Taylor fan, and honest to goodness, I did not…

Pam: Oh, did you put this in for me? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but I didn’t intend for you to read it.

Pam: Oh, okay.

Andrew: That just happened to be the order it got placed in. That’s funny to me.

[Pam laughs]

Andrew: Paula said,

“Magical movie night! I like to think they get a break from their hard work, and they use their magic to create beautiful shows.”

Oh, like live theater?

“There’s popcorn, candy, and no need for bathroom breaks as this is the Room of Requirement, after all.”

Eric: Badgerforth: “It’s 100% their dump. Where else does wizard trash go? The Room of Requirement, of course!”

Andrew: Aww. That makes me sad to think the house-elves are just using it as a dump instead of a place to put on live performances of Shrek: The Musical.

Micah: Cassandra said, “Since we never see any food deliveries at Hogwarts, maybe this room becomes an enormous farmers’ market run by agricultural elves.”

Eric: That’s really creative.

Pam: And Jeff says,

“Hermione has got it all wrong. The house-elves aren’t laboring all day in the kitchen; they’re actually sneaking off to the Room of Requirement to pick up pre-made meals and pretending like they cooked it themselves.”

Eric: Oh.

Pam: Wow, that’s a scandal.

Eric: It’s not delivery; it’s DiGiorno!

[Pam laughs]

Andrew: It’s not food cooked by the house-elves; it’s Factor meals, a MuggleCast sponsor. Zachary said,

“It’s where they go for a nice stiff one after our hard day’s/night’s work. It’s their home away from home, away from their condo barrels in the kitchen.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s a cute addition from Hogwarts Legacy.

Andrew: Yes.

“A place where they can lounge on the beanies from Hermione that Dobby can’t fit on his head and discuss all the hot goss surrounding the castle.”

Oh, house-elves are total gossip queens. I hadn’t thought about that until now.

Pam: They definitely know everything that’s going on in the castle.

Andrew: And their big ears? They’re hearing so much happening.

Eric: And we know they throw some shade.

Andrew: Max that, Max that.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Eric: We also received many other responses, including several others that think that house-elves simply use it as a place to relax or blow off some steam. I do like that, this idea that the house-elves are not immune to some stress, and so the Room of Requirement is like a spa or a place to relax. I like that a lot. Thank you, everyone, for submitting that. Don’t forget that you, too, the listener, can participate in Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at the Patreon.com/MuggleCast address at our Slug Club level.

Andrew: Really fun new benefit we have; we’re really enjoying hearing from our listeners. And if you have any other feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Our next Muggle Mail episode is just a few weeks away; it’ll be Episode 700, and next week we will discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for everybody’s favorite game show, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question was: What bird did the Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages? The correct answer was pigeons!

Micah: Doves.

Eric: And because you learn something new every day, here’s how they did it: You would take pigeons that were from a certain region or area of the world and take them to these foreign cities where you were sending letters from, and truly, all that they would do is they would fly home with a letter attached.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Pam: Oh, is that where the “homing pigeon” saying comes from? Like, “I’m just a homing pigeon?”

Eric: Yep, it’s pretty neat, because in the Harry Potter books, it’s all magic; owls magically know where to find you. But anyway, 72% of people said they didn’t look it up; they knew about the pigeons, which is exciting. And those correct answers were submitted by 100% Ravenclaw since the beginning; A Healthy Breeze; Aberforth’s abs of dumbledough…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … AmyTheOldBoot; Beautiful plumage; Buff Daddy; Hermione’s Boggart Is Herself; I binge podcast when I’m not listening to audiobooks; I finally get to go back to work, March 23 hopefully; “I knew just the right answer!” in Andrew’s Gilderoy Lockhart voice, meaning it’s a lie because he’s a fraud; I tawt I taw a puddytat; John Lithgow reached out and got the correct answer. Nice job, John.

Andrew: Oh! Wow.

Eric: A.k.a. Michael; Julie Anne Fae; QuidWitch; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; and Umbridgerton.

Andrew: Oh, clever, clever.

Eric: Very clever. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: The abbreviation “DA” may most commonly refer to this position as chief prosecutor in a United States criminal case. What is the position with those initials that has a history stretching back to 1813? Because we always strive to be educational. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on the website, checking out transcripts or anything else, must listens page, etc., click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: And also check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us, including Pam. Thanks for joining us again today, Pam. Pleasure to have you on.

Pam: Of course.

Andrew: In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Micah and Laura are reviewing the latest season of The White Lotus, and on Millennial, we’re talking about the “Buy it nice or buy it twice” shopping trend. All of these shows are brought to you by Muggles like you, and there’s lots of great ways to help us out. One of our newest ways is by visiting MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear. You can also visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast for two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month. You hear that, Warner Bros.? That’s how you’re going to hear my plan for Harry Potter Season 1. You’ve got to pay up. Everybody else can also get ad-free episodes of MuggleCast. You can hop into a monthly Zoom hangout. There’s many other magical perks, all at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, send an owl to a friend about the show, and please cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Pam: And I’m Pamela.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Micah and Pam: Bye.

Transcript #695

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #695, Society for Hulk Prevention (OOTP Chapter 17, Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the upcoming Harry Potter TV show. This week, keep an eye on your fireplace because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “Educational Decree Number 24.” I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.


News


Andrew: And we do have a bit of Harry Potter TV show news this week, a small update following up on an item we discussed a couple weeks ago. John Lithgow says, “Yeah, I’m playing Dumbledore. It’s me!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Cool! Yeah, man!

Andrew: He said this in a recent interview. He confirmed it. Now, keep in mind, Warner Bros. has not confirmed this yet, so he got out ahead of their announcement, whenever they were planning on making it. He said, “I’ll be about 87 at the rap party, but I’ve said yes. I just got the phone call up at the Sundance Film Festival, and it was not an easy decision because it’s going to define me for the last chapter of my life, I’m afraid. But I’m very excited.” So it’s not just us who’s concerned about his age, because this is a ten-year commitment. Warner Bros. says this is a ten-year project they’re embarking on. Look, I’m excited. I just think it’s interesting they’re casting somebody so old.

Eric: I’m coming around on it, his casting specifically, because he is such a good actor, Emmy Award winner and that kind of thing. I’m still uncertain what this means for other Americans potentially being cast in the film, since that barrier of old is not maintained with this go-around, this reboot TV series. But yeah, and I think that what touched me about his statement is specifically this line about defining him for the last chapter of his life, so I think that he is looking at it with the level of, I don’t know, scope that this really has the chance to be a defining type role. That excites me.

Laura: Yeah. He knows how important it is, to your point, Eric. And I don’t know; when we heard the rumor, and heard that it was a very believable rumor, I was excited, and I’m super excited now. He is such a talented actor. And yeah, I mean, the age consideration is something that I’m sure they had a conversation about, but at the end of the day, if an actor who plays an iconic role passes away, it’s not the first time that’s happened, and we’ve seen how this very series has… I don’t want to say rectified that, but recast the role with somebody who was able to carry it forward. So I actually feel pretty confident about this.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I wasn’t on the episode when you discussed the rumor, so it’s the first time I’m getting a chance to react to it, but just hearing him talk about the role, I think, is exciting. And while it hasn’t been confirmed by Warner Bros., I did like what you were talking about, how really it seems like they’re casting around Dumbledore, right? This is the first big confirmation that we’ve gotten. Yeah, we’ve heard some rumors about Snape, but we now presumably have our Dumbledore for the TV series, and this idea that they are casting around him is something new because presumably, the first time around, they cast around the trio.

Eric: I’m calling it right now: Joseph Gordon-Levitt for Snape.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Oh, wow. Bring back everybody from 3rd Rock.

Eric: Have a whole 3rd Rock reunion, absolutely, starting with JGL.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Something that excited me about John Lithgow being cast as Dumbledore is that I was watching the SAG Awards last Sunday, and he ended up accepting an award for… was it Conclave, Micah?

Micah: I think so. That would’ve made sense.

Andrew: Yeah, he’s in Conclave, right? Yeah, with Ralph Fiennes, who, of course, played Voldemort in the movies. And they were standing right next to each other at the SAG Awards; I was like, “Oh, this is interesting. Here’s TV Dumbledore and movie Voldemort accepting an award together.” But what really stood out to me was John Lithgow is actually a tall guy, and that further sold me on Dumbledore. I think the height must have been a factor in deciding to cast him.

Eric: Yeah, and from Harry’s perspective when he’s 11, Dumbledore is this tall, older than dirt kind of guy.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’re so ageist.

Eric: His nose has been broken at least twice. I don’t know. He might just have the look down. I’m not sure.

Micah: I did want to ask about the fact that this is not a British actor. Is this surprising to us? Do we feel like we’re going to get a mixed cast now?

Andrew: [sighs] It worries me a little bit. I don’t want to see too many American actors in the TV show. I want them to stick with British people, please.

Laura: Well, it sounds like for the trio, if I recall the casting announcement, they were looking for people in the UK and Ireland, so I think at least for the trio and probably a lot of the kids, they’re going to stick with British actors.

Andrew: And that makes sense, because it would be a big challenge to ask very young kids to pull off a good English accent, whereas John Lithgow…

Eric: On top of everything else they’ve got to do.

Andrew: Right, including being thrust into the spotlight.

Eric: I want French Stewart for Filch, please and thank you.

Andrew: I’m still saying Timothée Chalamet for Harry Potter.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: How old is… isn’t he, like, 30 now?

Andrew: [laughs] Yes. He played Bob Dylan, for God’s sake.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: This role has a real good chance of defining him, Laura, if he would only accept it. Dune didn’t do it.

Andrew: How do you feel, Micah? Do you think they should be casting all English people, or should they be dabbling in the American waters, or elsewhere?

Micah: Well, this is presumably the most important role outside of Harry, so the fact that they would cast an American actor is a bit surprising, I think. I anticipated pretty much an all-British cast here. I don’t know if you necessarily need it, but it’s definitely surprising.

Eric: The interesting thing to me is that there are quite a bit more British actors on American mainstream projects now, and you wouldn’t even necessarily recognize. Like Charlie Cox, who plays Daredevil in the Marvel series.

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: Totally British, and does a convincing American accent. So they would presumably have a large group of actors to choose from that maybe when we get the news, we’re like, “Wait a minute, aren’t they American?” It turns out, no, in fact, they’re not.

Micah: One thing just to mention briefly: In the Discord Gabby did mention that John Lithgow did play Winston Churchill in The Crown, so presumably either he can do a very good British accent, or AI can, or whatever the technology…

Andrew: AI?!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I think they’ll just have them naturally pull it off. [laughs]

Laura: No, he has an incredibly broad range. You’re talking Lord Farquaad…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Keeps coming up.

Laura: … a deranged serial killer… Winston Churchill…

Eric: Wait, which one is the serial…?

Laura: Dexter. [laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, stick with MuggleCast for continuing coverage of the Harry Potter TV show. Make sure you’re following us in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube, and we’ll continue to share news as it happens. As we continue to analyze the books and prepare to cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your financial support allows us to focus more time on the show and less time in the Muggle world, and in exchange, we’ll offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast; we release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon. We’ll also hook you up with a new physical gift every year, ad-free episodes of the show, exclusive Facebook and Discord groups, and so much more. Thanks, everybody, for your support. We really could not do this without you.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And let’s now dive into Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Educational Decree Number 24.”

Eric: Yes, and we last discussed this chapter on Episode 453 of MuggleCast, which in fun throwback flashback news was titled “2 Fast, 2 Illustrated,” because they had just announced MinaLima’s foray into the illustrated Harry Potter universe.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Time is a flat circle.

Micah: What a coincidence.

Eric: [laughs] February 11, 2020 was that episode.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 453.

Andrew: David, who’s listening live, also brings up a good point. He says, “So by definition, does the trio count as a society, team, group, club? Because in this Decree, she says three or more.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s awesome.

Andrew: Yeah. Three does seem like a low number. I mean, there are groups of three. I mean, we would be banned. We’re a club.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: “No podcasting.”

Laura: Oh, Umbridge would absolutely hate us.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: And we’re going to get banned again.

Micah: For sure.

Laura: Absolutely.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, let’s get right into it, shall we? We left Harry on a really bright positive note at the end of the last chapter; he was observing how beautiful the village of Hogsmeade was. Everything was kind of being viewed through rose-colored glasses, because Hermione had observed to Harry, “Cho couldn’t stop looking at you, plus she complimented you and stood up for you during the meeting.” And that’s all well and good for Harry; I love when he gets these moments. Unfortunately, they don’t tend to last very long, and that’s the case here too.

Andrew: Why should Harry ever be happy?

Laura: Basically. Is that the title of the episode? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah! We’re done for today.

Laura: We’ll see you next week!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But the reason that his happiness is cut short here is because on Monday morning, we are introduced to Educational Decree 24, which disbands all student groups, clubs, teams, and societies. I don’t know that I am aware of Hogwarts having any societies that we ever heard about; maybe we can unpack what those would be during this discussion. But it’s okay; everything has been disbanded, but students can have their group reinstated by getting approval from the High Inquisitor, so no biggie, right?

Eric: Yeah, you just have to bow to the whims and whatever she asks you to do in order to get your club approved.

Andrew: In terms of the societies, I wonder if Umbridge is sort of covering her bases, in case anyone tries to argue that they don’t have a club; they have a “society.”

Eric: A Society for the Protection of Elfish Welfare! Hello! SPEW is a society.

Andrew: There you go.

Laura: Oh, SPEW is… oh, and Umbridge would definitely disband SPEW.

Eric: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: Yes. [laughs]

Laura: I’m actually kind of surprised that that never became a conflict in this book. Maybe it would have just been too much. Because I feel like Hermione at this point, she’s going through a phase of rebellion where, if she actually had the conscious realization of, “Oh, me doing SPEW is just one more thing that I can do to get under Umbridge’s skin and resist,” she would do it. So it could just be that it would have been too many plot points.

Eric: I think maybe also technically it’s disbanded, because Hermione is the only one doing it right now.

Laura: Ohh, no. It’s true. [laughs]

Eric: So it’s not a society; there’s no social aspect. It’s just Hermione and her own crafts.

Andrew: Well, and the decree says, what, three or more?

Eric: Three or more.

Andrew: Groups of three or more? So Hermione is sneaking under the wire that way too.

Laura: Aren’t Harry and Ron technically members?

Micah: Didn’t they sign up?

Andrew: Do they all get together for these society meetings?

Laura: No.

Eric: Oh yeah, they paid her and got their little badge.

Laura: Well, Micah, there is a significance to the number of this Educational Decree, right?

Micah: There might be. I thought it might be fun to look up the significance of the number 24, and so in numerology, the number 24 is often interpreted as a symbol of harmony, balance, and completeness, and in this case, we would be talking about Umbridge, not the students, right? We could see how this could put her mind at ease, if she is in full control of what the students are doing in their off time. And I also thought it was relevant that there are 24 hours in a day, so Umbridge, this is her way of controlling students every waking hour.

Eric: Yes.

Laura: I like that.

Eric: She needs to be on their mind every hour of every day.

Micah: Right. We know that she is inspecting all of the different classes, so she’s in control there, but now she’s clearly in control when they’re not in the classroom, and it’s just one of those situations where the walls are starting to close in around Harry and his friends. We see that throughout this chapter; it’s not just the Educational Decree, it’s everything that is happening throughout the course of this chapter we can point to as a significant moment, and say the walls are closing in. And one thing I did want to bring up – we talked about this, actually, back on Episode 453 – there’s a significance to the fact that the Educational Decree is literally covering everything else on the board, right? It’s saying that this is more important. This is taking over. All the things that Harry mentions, or that the author mentions that are also on the board, they are being covered by the Educational Decree.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: She’s taking over. It’s real… it’s a huge power grab, I guess. She’s exercising her insanely large amount of power.

Laura: So obviously, the trio are not the only ones who are in shock at this decree and wondering about how it’s going to affect their extracurricular activities. I think a second year comes up next to Harry and says, “Oh, I wonder if Gobstones Club will still be allowed.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Oh, sweet child.

Laura: And Harry was… or I think Ron was actually like, “I think Gobstones will be fine, but I don’t know about our thing, Harry.” [laughs]

Eric: Aww. Bless that kid’s heart. Little Gobstones fanatic.

Laura: I know, it’s so innocent, so pure, but that student was young and didn’t realize that Voldemort was back.

Eric: I picture it in a very Dickensian… like a Dickensian orphan is like, “Does this mean they cancel the Gobstones?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Oliver Twist?

Laura: Well, of course, for the trio I think the first natural conclusion to jump to is, “Okay, who blabbed? Who blabbed to Umbridge already? It’s only been a day.” And Hermione is like, “No, I don’t think so, because I did something to the sheet that everyone signed that would make it very obvious if someone blabbed to Umbridge or to anyone.” And that really then opens up the question for the trio, “Then who could it be?”

Eric: I’m glad this isn’t a mystery that lasts too long. They quickly realize that, “Oh yeah, there were a lot of other people in the Hog’s Head, and we could have been more careful, maybe.”

Micah: It’s a great insurance policy that Hermione decided to take out, but how do we feel about this underhanded move? Because it is underhanded.

Eric: Yeah, she did not tell them, “Hey, by signing up, you are under pretty serious penalty.”

Andrew: It’s a double-edged sword, because if she did tell people, they probably would have been less inclined to actually sign the piece of paper.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: On the other hand, by not telling them, then you’re getting everybody… then you’re really making sure that all the people who attended are not only signing the list, but going to be kept honest. So I don’t really know what the answer is here. I guess I would have said… I don’t know. I think Hermione did the right thing by not telling them.

Eric: Yeah, no, when we get to the Marietta chapter, I always feel bad for… situations being what they are and Umbridge being as awful as she is. But currently while reading this, I just feel like desperate times call for desperate measures. At least Hermione’s jinx was nonlethal. It was overkill; I know we’ve discussed previously Hermione’s character, what it says about Hermione’s character that she did this, but at least it was nonlethal. I’ll just say that.

Laura: Yeah, I tend to agree with that. Would this have been overkill if it were for their secret Gobstones Club? Absolutely. For this, I agree. Desperate times.

Eric: The stakes couldn’t be higher, kind of?

Andrew: Or how about some sort of charm where any time one of the people who signed the sheet try to speak about it, their voice becomes garbled or something like that? Why did it have to be a physical change to them? Like, “You can only talk about it if you’re talking about it to people who have signed the same sheet that you did.”

Eric: Like a Secret Keeper kind of thing? That would just be really advanced, though.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess.

Eric: You could do it, but only a few really talented wizards could do it.

Micah: Because I feel like then it’s clear who the rat is. If it was just a matter of muffling their voice, you would never really know.

[Andrew imitates an adult talking in Peanut]

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Versus the pimples, the acne, they last a little bit of time, and so you’d be able to see who actually ratted you out.

Andrew: I must have been a rat back in the day because I was getting a lot of pimples on my face.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: I’m realizing that’s why now.

Laura: You didn’t make the connection at the time?

Andrew: [laughs] No, I didn’t.

Eric: “I really ought to stop snitching on my friends… nah, never mind.”

Andrew: No wonder I’ve always had bad acne!

Eric: [laughs] Well, it cleared up, Andrew, so you must have gotten on the straight and narrow.

Andrew: Somewhat, somewhat.

Micah: speaking of placing blame, Ron is one who’s very quick to blame the students, but he forgets that he was in a public space with a lot of shifty people lurking about, and he doesn’t even think for a second that it could possibly be one of those individuals, so it just shows how his mind is right now.

Eric: What’s funny about Ron – and you’ve got to love him; he’s Harry’s loyal friend – but he wants to place the blame on somebody that has previously wronged him. I think that Ron is still upset over the Zacharias Smith encounter in the Hog’s Head, and so he wants to immediately have permission to jump to the conclusion that Zacharias Smith did this. “Who even are you, dude?” But he has no evidence, and he just needs to be like, “Okay, it’s not him.” Don’t freak out.

Andrew: Or Ginny’s new boyfriend.

Eric: Well, right.

Laura: Oh, yeah. So in retrospect, do we think it would have been smart for the DA to form under some kind of innocuous-sounding mission – like Gobstones Club, if we want to go back to that example – so that it would be less likely for Umbridge to have heard about all of this?

Eric: Yeah, I think the issue for me is that this was their first meeting. They did need the ability to, when first gathered, be like, “This is what we need to do. Let’s start a group for it.” As soon as they have that initial thesis statement or mission statement established, then they can call it whatever innocuous name they want. But because they were overheard right out the gate, there might not have been any avoiding this.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. I think they would have had to start smaller than they did. Probably the cardinal sin here is having their initial meeting with so many people; it just attracts a ton of attention.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And as Sirius brings up later, they should have done it in Three Broomsticks because there’s safety in numbers, and if you’re in a crowded space, nobody’s going to think anything of all these people gathering there.

Laura: Well, I wanted to ask for a make a real life connection and see if any of us were ever part of a student group that got disbanded.

Eric: I’ve never had one canceled on me. I had one fizzle out. There was a very short-lived barbershop quartet in high school.

Laura: Aww! [laughs]

Eric: A couple of guys wanted to get together and rehearse, and we had a few… I guess we could have been good. I sang bass. And we did a couple of practices, and then it just kind of… there was an unspoken agreement that it wasn’t going to meet again, and we all just kind of left one day without even saying proper goodbyes. [laughs] And then we never… or maybe it continued on without me; I’m not sure if I was phased out or what. But it was a lot of fun for maybe five weeks.

Andrew: Never a disbanded group, but this kind of reminds me of when my fifth grade teacher tried to stop us kids from reading Harry Potter in school, and the parents, including my mom, were not happy about that. So there were attempts to disband the love of Harry Potter from the students. Didn’t work out, though.

Eric: Love that.

Laura: Well, we know Harry is a rebel now, so he has no intention of letting Educational Decree 24 stop the DA or shut the DA down. Unfortunately, the Gryffindor Quidditch team is not a secret society, so that does get shut down. Angelina informs him soon after this that the Gryffindor Quidditch team has also been disbanded. We learn that Slytherin was able to get their team privileges back very quickly from Umbridge, of course, because favoritism.

Andrew: And as we see across this chapter, Umbridge is taking her time to decide if Gryffindor can resume Quidditch activities or not, while Slytherin has gotten approval. To me, I feel like this is just Umbridge’s way of making sure Harry doesn’t piss her off – he stays good; he doesn’t try to step a toe out of line – because if she continues to hold Quidditch, the whole team’s Quidditch practices over his head, he is not going to want to stoke the fire. He’s going to stay as good as possible.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just… this is wrong. Their freedom is limited, and a single person that’s placed in charge, that’s Umbridge, can decide to unfairly penalize one group they like and another they don’t. This also opens the doors for bribery, flattery, any manner of non-equitable practices that are really meant to just restrict freedoms and really encourage bribery and lawlessness.

Micah: Bribery? What do you do, dangle a kitten out in front of her?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I mean, maybe.

Micah: Maybe. Yeah, no question, it’s an issue of fairness, and there’s no reason if one Quidditch team was approved that the others shouldn’t be as well, right?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Well, Angelina speaks to her and she doesn’t give her a reason. She just says, “I’ll need to think about it.”

Micah: My question would be, who is Slytherin going to play against? Themselves?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, why not?

Andrew: Yeah, split the team up in half and do just that.

Eric: That’s one way to win the House Cup.

Micah: We don’t know, obviously, the status of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, but we have to assume that they’re probably in a similar category to Gryffindor. Maybe not to the extent of Gryffindor because of Harry, but it’s clear Slytherin got the fast track of approval.

Andrew: Well, and to your point, Micah, if I were McGonagall, I would be pissed about how unfair this is. Like you said, you can’t let the Slytherins play and other Houses not play. That makes no sense.

Laura: And unfortunately, the hits do keep coming for Harry. Not only is all of this happening, is he having to face the prospect of Umbridge really using the Gryffindor Quidditch team against him to kind of put him in his place… she’s trying to get him to remember what his place is, and the fact that he is inferior and that he is someone who is out of line just by existing. So not only is he dealing with that, but when he’s in History of Magic a little bit later, Hedwig very bizarrely shows up at the window trying to deliver a letter to Harry, which is unusual for her. She didn’t come with the other post owls at breakfast. And when Harry opens the window, brings her in – Binns, of course, doesn’t notice because he’s just doing what he always does – Harry notices very quickly that she’s hurt. Her wing is bent; her feathers are all jostled. It’s very clear that she’s in pain.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s disturbing; somebody is attacking Hedwig. I mean, Harry has already been attacked with the detentions, and now here comes… now his poor pet animal is being attacked as well. Nothing’s out of bounds here.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I mean, he’s got to be thinking about all the possibilities for who could have done this, right? Because he just had Filch cornering him a few weeks ago, trying to intercept his mail, so he already knows that someone’s watching or attempting to watch. And I think there are a number of culprits that you could point to. Micah, were you going to say something?

Micah: Yeah, it just goes back to earlier; we were talking about the fact that the walls are closing in. It’s not just the Educational Decrees; now it’s the fact that Hedwig has been attacked. Like you’re saying, Filch was clearly suspicious of him a couple of chapters ago. He was suspicious of him last chapter prior to going to Hogsmeade; he’s literally sniffing him as he walks by him. And we’re going to see as we progress through this chapter, Umbridge is literally in every one of their classes, and then, of course, she’s in the fireplace at the end of the chapter. So there’s no real safe space now for Harry to operate. There’s no safe space for him to exist as a student.

Andrew: No privacy. Privacy nightmare.

Laura: Completely. Well, Harry, of course, would want to take Hedwig to Hagrid before anyone else to help mend her, but he’s obviously not available. So Harry goes in search of Professor Grubby-Plank, goes to the staff room, and when he meets with her about mending Hedwig and observes that he thinks Hedwig has been attacked, she looks at Hedwig and drops this piece of foreshadowing in saying, “Thestrals will sometimes go for birds, of course, but Hagrid’s got the Hogwarts Thestrals well trained not to touch owls.” And this is so funny because right after, Harry’s inner monologue is literally like, “I don’t know what Thestrals are, and I don’t really care.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: But it’s like, no, actually, you do want to know what they are.

Andrew: What I had forgotten was that it takes Harry so long to actually put a term on these creatures he had seen earlier in the book, whereas in the movie, doesn’t he learn right at the beginning? When Luna is like, “They’re called Thestrals”?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It’s pretty early.

Andrew: This is an ongoing mystery in this book.

Eric: Well, right, it’s funny because in Book 3, Harry sees the Grim all year, and he’s trying to not believe that it’s the Grim or something; he’s going away. Now he’s got this other mystery creature that he doesn’t know anything about that maybe only he can see. I don’t know. Yeah, you’d think that he would want to learn what they are, absolutely. I was impressed by the vote of confidence here from Grubbly-Plank; she gives Hagrid a compliment, essentially. It’s not that they ever had beef; they absolutely probably never did, but we like to pit them against each other because Harry is so pro-Hagrid, so aggressively pro-Hagrid. But it’s nice to see Grubbly-Plank give that, by her estimate, Hagrid did a great job with the Thestrals.

Micah: Right, but not as professor for Care of Magical Creatures. As the groundskeeper of Hogwarts, that would be one of his responsibilities, right? To keep the Thestrals in check?

Eric: Well, given that they’re employed by the school… yeah, that’s interesting. It probably crosses both territories.

Laura: Grubbly-Plank strikes me as an extremely professional person who’s not going to have beef with her coworkers, and she’s not going to walk into Hagrid’s classroom and have an automatic assumption of superiority for her own skills, or think to compare and contrast herself. She just seems happy to be there, honestly.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it reminds me we were talking about her a few chapters ago when Umbridge was watching her lesson.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: She wasn’t mad that Umbridge was there, and when Umbridge is like, “Oh, you’ll get your report back in a week,” Grubbly-Plank just goes, “Jolly good. Okay. Time for a cup of tea.” She just doesn’t care. She’s just there for the ride and enjoys teaching, clocks in, clocks out, doesn’t overthink it.

Micah: But I wouldn’t cross her. There’s something about her… she smokes a pipe. She has a badass element about her.

Laura: Oh, yeah, I agree.

Andrew: It’s “Plank” in her name. I think she’s a pirate.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Or Wilhelmina, right? That’s her first name that we learn in this chapter?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Laura: As they’re having this interaction, and before Harry leaves Hedwig with Professor Grubbly-Plank, McGonagall asks Harry where that letter came from, and she kind of has her eyebrows raised, looking at Harry suspiciously. Harry says, “London”; she immediately understands that to mean Grimmauld Place, and she pulls him aside and basically says, “Hey, Harry, all the channels of communication in and out of Hogwarts are being monitored, so please do keep that in mind while you’re writing letters to and from your escaped convict godfather.” [laughs]

Andrew: As evidenced by your owl.

Laura: Yeah, exactly. So Harry now has confirmation that his letter could have been intercepted. I think he kind of tries to lie to himself and say that it wasn’t, because I think we see later on in the chapter how that turns out. But there is this moment that I felt as a pet parent. In this interaction, as Harry hands Hedwig over to Professor Grubbly-Plank and he starts walking away from them, Hedwig has this reproachful look on her face, like, “You’re leaving me with a stranger?!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “And you’re going on vacation?!” That’s what my dog thinks.

Laura: Right. So I was going to say, do any of us relate to this feeling as pet parents?

Eric: Oh, yeah. As a cat owner, my cat Martha… I really have been thinking about her a lot during the read-through of this chapter, because I would hate for her to be injured. How fragile tiny animals are compared to human strength… to realize what must have happened to Hedwig was that Umbridge manhandled her is devastating. When somebody that you don’t know or like manhandles your animal like that… there are very few instances where I would commit a homicide, but that gets me close. Do you know what I’m saying?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Do you, really, though?

Andrew: Yeah, you get defensive and you want to kill somebody. [laughs]

Eric: Who would hurt an animal, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: You’re a big, big, weak person to do that.

Laura: Listen, I like my dog more than I like most people, and I will leave it at that. [laughs]

Eric: Okay, yeah, you won’t couch to commit a homicide maybe one day, Laura?

Laura: Maybe I will, maybe I won’t.

Eric: Okay, all right. Well, because you know if this were Hogwarts Legacy, you’d be casting that AK.

Laura: Oh, that’s true. Totally.

Andrew: I think we can reel this back a little bit. I mean, we’re basically talking about the equivalent of leaving your dog with a petsitter or a vet, not a murderer. [laughs]

Eric: Okay, in that case… no, but I’m talking about the injury that caused her to need…

Laura: Yeah, who attacked Hedwig.

Andrew: Okay, got it.

Eric: But no, whenever I leave… when we take Martha to the vet, she’s meowing. [imitates Martha] She doesn’t really understand where she’s going in the car in the little carrier, and it’s devastating because we keep saying, “Hey, it’s okay. We’re taking you…”

Andrew: That’s the same noise Micah makes when he leaves me, actually.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s so funny.

Micah: Yeah, separation anxiety from Andrew is really tough on me.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I totally understand where Hedwig is coming from, right? And it’s the same thing as being separated from Andrew.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But the reality for Hedwig, though, is it would actually be different if it was Hagrid, because she knows Hagrid. Hagrid was the one who gave her to Harry initially, right? So at least there’s some sort of relationship there. But this is also the staff office, and who knows if Umbridge is going to find her way into the staff office at some point and see Hedwig there being treated by Grubbly-Plank, right? And we were presuming that it was Umbridge, or at least on Umbridge’s orders that Hedwig was attacked, so wouldn’t that be scary for Hedwig to potentially come face-to-face again with the person who did this to her?

Andrew: Absolutely. And we see that in the Muggle world too; an animal gets abused, and then they don’t want to be touched. They don’t want to… they hate all men all of a sudden. They never forget that type of thing.

Laura: Right. Once Harry ascertains that Hedwig is in good hands, he finally gets to open his letter from Sirius, and the message is really simple and vague. Just says, “Today, same time, same place.” Same fireplace, as a matter of fact.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: But Hermione here is quick to make the connection about Hedwig probably being intercepted, and floats this idea – like we just mentioned a few moments ago – of Harry’s letter being read and magically resealed, that it would be very easy to do. Harry is kind of in denial about it, and she even goes so far as to suggest that the Floo Network could be monitored as well, which Harry should be thinking of, because McGonagall literally just told him channels of communication are being monitored.

Andrew: Yeah, but at the same time they’re kind of stuck, because they can’t get a message back to Sirius. He’s going to be showing up in that fireplace, whether they want him to or not. It is too bad; this whole scenario got me thinking Hedwig and other magical animals should be able to communicate better with humans somehow, using a spell, a charm, brain waves… something. You would think there’s magic to allow a witch or wizard to read the mind of a animal or their pet, their designated pet.

Laura: Well, I’m sure Hedwig is probably thinking, “You can do magic; why don’t you fix me? Why are you leaving me with a stranger?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “You heard of Skele-Gro?”

Eric: Listen, Harry never had a proper healing class in Care of Magical Creatures. He’s still only in his fifth year.

Laura: Hedwig doesn’t care about that.

Eric: He should have learned to do it, though, because she’s been mistreated before by the Dursleys. And in fact… well, and here’s the other thing: If Grubbly-Plank or whoever the Care of Magical Creatures teacher is would pay regular wellness checks to the owlery, then all the owls would be familiar with her.

Laura: True.

Eric: Who’s actually watching after those owls and their wellbeing?

Micah: Nobody. It’s a free-for-all.

Laura: [laughs] Just their owners.

Eric: Dung on the floor… yeah.

Micah: And Andrew, you brought up the point, though, that Sirius is going to show up no matter what. But couldn’t Harry have gone to McGonagall to send a message to Grimmauld Place?

Andrew: Oooh.

Micah: Presumably her communications aren’t being watched, at least not yet, and we know that the Order communicates via Patronus, so perhaps there was another way around this. I mean, I feel like we’re going to go back and forth on this a lot throughout Order of the Phoenix, in terms of communicating with Sirius and whether or not he should show up in certain places.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, maybe Harry didn’t want to tell McGonagall that it was Sirius who wanted to come knocking; that’s my only guess. I think your point is good otherwise.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: You feel like it would have gotten both of them into trouble probably?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I don’t know, though; I feel like McGonagall would be able to put two and two together because she knows who the letter is from, and she’s like, “By the way, all channels of communication are being monitored.” I think it would be a pretty easy guess to make.

Micah: But Sirius lives for that risk, though.

Laura: He does.

Micah: I don’t think it would deter him all that much.

Laura: We’ll see that in his character later on when they have their Floo conversation. But for now, we need to take a quick break for a few words from our sponsors, and then we will be back to talk about why Neville has had it!

[Andrew laughs]

[Ad break]

Laura: All right, and we’re back. And first of all, a theme in this part of the discussion, and what I’ve titled this part of the discussion, is, “Why is this [censored] everywhere?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: She’s everywhere! Does she have a Time-Turner? I just feel like she’s everywhere.

Andrew: This is her job! Hogwarts High Inquisitor.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She’s got to be everywhere.

Eric: She takes it very seriously.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Well, unfortunately, she is pretty much literally everywhere, as we will see throughout the rest of the chapter. But to poor Neville… when they go to Potions there is this fight that very nearly breaks out, because Malfoy at one point gloatingly suggests that Harry is going to have to be carted off to St. Mungo’s soon to a special department that cares for people who’ve had their brains “addled by magic.” And of course, we know to Neville, that’s his parents that Malfoy is making fun of, and of course, Neville launches at Malfoy. Harry knows why. Nobody else seems to know why, because Harry is, I think, one of the few people who knows this particular backstory of Neville’s at this point. But Harry and Ron do stop him before he can do any damage. Snape still takes points from Gryffindor, like you do.

Eric: Ugh, of course.

Laura: But what do we think of what Neville does here?

Andrew: I have no issues with it, but I do think this scene is a good reminder to everybody that you never know what somebody is going through, so you can’t say things like this. You can’t insult, let’s say, somebody’s personal appearance; you never know what’s hiding underneath the surface. So to me, that’s what struck me about this; it’s that this cuts deeply for Neville. And Malfoy, I would like to think, in his later years regretted saying such a thing, but at the same time, Malfoy is a bully, so this is just what he does. But yeah, I have no issues with how Neville reacted. Malfoy deserved it.

Eric: I feel like it is ultimately a good thing that Harry and Ron have to pull him back, if for no other reason than that Crabbe and Goyle were waiting, and you know that they would hit Neville harder than he’s able to get to Draco, so nobody would have come out of that better off. But I think that the genuine flash of surprise on Draco’s face shows that he himself was maybe not expecting the effect of his words, to Andrew’s point, and that’s unfortunately the kind of thing… it’s the kind of reaction you need to keep giving Malfoy, because he’s never going to stop. He says wildly inappropriate things about everyone all the time later on the Quidditch pitch, which actually does lead to a fist fight that gets Harry expelled permanently from Quidditch. So I just feel like unfortunately, Malfoy’s personality, the only way he’s going to learn is by having people react the way Neville is reacting.

Micah: I agree. Yeah, it’s a perfect example of where making a joke can have unintended consequences. And I don’t think any of us for a second believe that it would be beneath Malfoy to poke fun at Neville’s parents. I don’t think in this moment he has a clue.

Eric: Agreed.

Micah: I don’t think it’s ever been probably communicated to him by his father that Neville’s parents are in St. Mungo’s; I think it just happened to be one of those situations where he said something. And he’s lucky that Harry and Ron were there, because I do think he would have been able to get at Malfoy for a period before Crabbe and Goyle decided to step in, because they only step in when they see Harry and Ron hold back Neville. But one of the other things that I think is really important to mention here, though, is just the fact that Harry has stayed loyal to his word to Dumbledore to not tell about Neville’s parents. Even in this moment, he could have explained to Ron and to Hermione why Neville did what he did, but he chooses not to, and I think that’s one in Harry’s column.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Speaks to his character.

Micah: Versus Dumbledore, who just lies to Harry constantly.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: But Harry can keep a secret; he knows the big impact this has on Neville. Honestly, if I was in Harry’s shoes, I’d probably tell Ron and Hermione. They’re my besties. We’re the trio, right? You tell your bestie everything, pretty much. I would tell my bestie this.

Laura: Oh, I don’t know. I feel like if somebody comes to me with something that is this horrific and asks me to keep it secret, I will keep that secret. If, I don’t know, it’s something that’s very much low stakes and isn’t going to have impact if I tell my partner, I’m like, “Oh, guess what Andrew told me today?” That’s different.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Guess what Andrew told me? Micah purrs when he leaves him.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I love that.

Micah: But that’s well known, isn’t it?

Andrew: [laughs] Now it is.

Laura: Yeah, it’s not a secret.

Andrew: No, I just think that Harry can trust Ron and Hermione with any secret, so by extension, he’s allowed to tell them this. I respect Harry for keeping the secret, but I also think he could be more open with Ron and Hermione, and it’d be okay.

Laura: Well, he’s not being Wormtaily, okay?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Yikes. It has to get so personal, Laura.

Micah: But this is part of Neville’s glow-up, too, right? In this book.

Laura: Yeah, it is.

Micah: This is one of the steps in that direction.

Laura: I wonder here if Neville understands the family connections at play with his parents. Because I genuinely agree; I don’t think that Malfoy knows what happened to Neville’s parents, and if he knows what happened to them, I doubt he knows that his auntie did it. But I wonder if Neville has made the connection that not only is Malfoy saying this horrible thing, but he is the nephew of the woman who did it.

Eric: Could be.

Laura: That makes it even worse, even if Drago doesn’t know. [laughs] Well, we finally do get the show that Harry was hoping for in terms of showdowns between professors. We have Umbridge v. Snape today in Snape’s Potions class.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And this just makes me think of the iconic montage in Order of the Phoenix that we get with this wonderful moment of Alan Rickman perfectly delivering the energy of this scene, when Umbridge is like, “You’ve applied for Defense Against the Dark Arts x number of times? And you’ve been unsuccessful?” And he’s like, “Obviously.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: When I read over this for this chapter it still made me smile, because I thought back to that scene.

Andrew: It’s classic.

Laura: It was so well done. But yeah, she obviously points out that while he has taught Potions consistently during his tenure at Hogwarts… and it’s very interesting to me, because with Trelawney and Snape, there’s a specific point made to make sure that both of them say exactly how many years they’ve been there, which they’re both very important to Harry’s story.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: So that’s interesting from a plot perspective. But when she asks Snape, “Why do you think the headmaster has not given you the position?” and Snape says, “You should probably ask Dumbledore about that.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: But ultimately, we know this is because the chess master ain’t going to put Snape in the cursed position until the opportune moment. He loves his opportune moments.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He loves ’em.

Laura: How would he explain that to Umbridge?

Eric: Well, whatever Snape said to explain it would have repercussions on her in that role, because she’s about to be ousted for that same curse. If she has any misgivings about staying in the role she’s currently in teaching DADA at Hogwarts, she has another thing coming, but why would he do her the favor of telling her that?

Laura: Well, Umbridge also kind of compliments Snape. She says, “This class seems pretty advanced for their level,” but then she also suggests that the Ministry would prefer Strengthening Solutions be removed from the curriculum, and a Strengthening Solution is what it sounds like it would be; it’s a potion that makes you physically stronger. Why do we think it is the Ministry doesn’t want students at Hogwarts learning this?

Eric: I don’t know.

Andrew: They don’t want the kids to turn into a version of the Hulk, right? And take down Umbridge.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The Society for Hulk Prevention.

Andrew: And any other Ministry… [laughs] Society… yeah, what’s the acronym there?

Eric: SHP.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, I like it. Yeah, and I mean, in terms of complimenting Snape, I wonder if this is more setup for Harry and the reader to further think that Snape is a bad guy; we can’t trust him. “Umbridge is signing off on Snape? There’s more proof that he sucks.”

Eric: Yeah, that’s not bad. Although, if he were being openly horrible to one of his students, as he usually is, I’m sure she’d give him even higher marks somehow, right? This is a pretty innocent lesson from Snape’s standpoint; they’re just doing a thing. But yeah, if she saw him really in action, she would fall in love, I think.

Laura: Eugh.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t think that’s what he wants.

Eric: You know, he needs someone to take his mind off of Lily.

Andrew: What’s worse, the love affair of Voldemort and Bellatrix, or a hypothetical affair between Snape and Umbridge?

Eric: We need a Broadway show based on the Snape and Umbridge relationship.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Snape and Umbridge.

Andrew: [imitating Snape] “I love you, Dolores.”

Laura: Voldemort/Bellatrix is horrible, don’t get me wrong…

Andrew: [imitating Snape] “You are the apple of my eye. You are the pink apple of my eye.”

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: [laughs] No, thank you.

Eric: Well, I’m kind of upset that Snape, just for… not devil’s advocate, but just sneakily… because Umbridge has a rare moment of being candid right now when she says the Ministry would prefer they maybe didn’t do Strengthening Solutions. He could very reasonably ask her why that is, and he doesn’t. And because as a reader, you kind of want to know what… it’s implied… you can guess what the reason is, as we all just did, but I wonder what Umbridge would say the reason is. Because that’s almost…

Andrew: And Snape must know too.

Eric: But that’s an indefensible kind of position, as a comment. It’s very damning for Umbridge to make that, because it’s very… on the surface level, why wouldn’t you want the students to be able to brew something that would maybe help keep them out of danger?

Andrew: Yeah, she is kind of saying the quiet part out loud.

Laura: Yeah, and I think it’s probably a case of Snape not asking the question because he already knows the answer.

Andrew: But I do think it would still be interesting to hear how Umbridge would spin it, to Eric’s point. Because I agree, Snape can figure it out himself; he’s a smart dude. But what happens when you put Umbridge on the spot like that?

Micah: I wonder how much direction, if any, Snape got from Dumbledore to just play along with Umbridge when he was being evaluated, because we know how important Snape is to Dumbledore and to this story. He doesn’t want to risk somebody like him getting sacked. Though I don’t think that would ever happen with somebody like Umbridge, because I feel like the Slytherin connection probably is important here too.

Laura: I agree. Yeah, because Umbridge is… I’ll say that I think she’s kind of going easy on Snape by comparison to what she does to the other teachers. Even Trelawney – who we’re about to talk about in a second – we know she’s not a great teacher. We know that she’s probably not really qualified to be doing what she’s doing. But Umbridge humiliates her in front of her students again and again, and we haven’t even gotten to the worst of it. So speaking of, she’s not having a great day because she got the results of her inspection back from Umbridge, and she’s not taking it well because it turns out she’s on probation.

Eric: Yeah, this hurts. This hurts to see.

Andrew: It does. It’s interesting watching Hermione react to this, too, because Hermione knows just how big of a fraud that she is. But reading this scene and looking at the headlines these days, I wanted to just make a real world connection statement. Trelawney is genuinely a fraud, at least part of the time, but what teachers are going through right now in the school is similar to what’s happening to federal employees in the US government, where they’re being asked to justify their work and prove their work, prove themselves worthy. And I just wanted to mention this because there are times where these books really… we can really tie them to what’s going on in the real world, and here’s an example of something that’s happening in these books and in the real world right now that we really haven’t connected before.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I mean, Umbridge is using the guise of better educational reform. What she’s really trying to do, and what she’s succeeding at, is kneecapping Dumbledore. That’s why she’s appointed; that’s what she wants to do. And it’s unfortunate that somebody Trelawney, who is admittedly a complete fraud, is nevertheless… she has feelings and they’re hurt, and it makes her even less of an effective teacher, if something like that were even possible.

Andrew: Yeah, because then you’re second guessing yourself.

Micah: Well, and in both cases, you have individuals who are requesting this information that really don’t have the criteria to even be in this position in the first place.

Eric: Right, Umbridge is not an educator. She is tasked with evaluating educators, okay?

Laura: Yeah. She was appointed by the Minister…

Eric: For being cutthroat.

Laura: … who is also not an educator. [laughs]

Micah: Sounds similar to present day situations.

Eric: Nobody’s qualified.

Laura: Yep, lots of real life connections that we can make here.

Micah: We won’t go any further than that, because…

Andrew: Thank you.

Eric: It would just depress us.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We’re here to make magic.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, we can feel bad for Trelawney for what she’s experiencing here. Even I think that it’s a little bit overboard. I think Trelawney… you take her for what she is, but you also understand that she’s been doing this for 16 years now, right? And she’s never been put on probation before now. So I can understand why it would be a shock to the system if you’ve been doing this job for all that time, and even if you know you’re a fraud, but you’ve still been showing up, and you’ve been doing well enough to not get put on probation, that sucks!

Micah: One of the things that stood out to me was that she is taking it out on her students a little bit. We see it with Neville. She’s physically assaulting him; not intentionally, but there is something to be said for that. However, I think a lot of what she is going through – the emotion that you’re talking about, Laura – it’s coming from the fact that it doesn’t seem like she’s getting any support. She’s been loyal to Dumbledore for these 16 years. Where is Dumbledore? He should be stepping in here. Obviously, he steps in at the most crucial of moments, but why not have him be supporting her in some capacity here? That’s where I think a lot of her frustration probably… because she goes on this rant and she talks about her dedication for so long of a period of time, and yeah, I’d be pissed off too.

Andrew: To back up my boy AD, is it possible that Albus has been talking with the professors offscreen? “Hey, just go along with what they’re doing right now. We don’t want to rock the Ministry boat too much, so we just have to sort of ride this out for a little while.” And maybe Dumbledore also met Trelawney down at the Hog’s Head to maybe get another prophecy out of her and comfort her.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Maybe.

Eric: They just missed that large group that was in there the other day.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, I can think of another way in which Dumbledore failed, though – sorry, Andrew – and that’s because Trelawney has been teaching for 16 years. We know she’s a fraud, but she could be operating under the delusion that she’s a good teacher because she’s been doing it for so long at this point that it’s become second nature. The problem is, if she was a substandard version of teacher the way that essentially Hermione encountered back in Book 3… and we’ve all known her to be just bad at teaching the subject; you don’t even need to be a real Seer to be able to effectively convey these methods that they’re using. It’s just she doesn’t… we never see Harry take it seriously, that she actually is inspiring within anyone – other than Lavender and Parvati – the desire to actually use this subject. It is a full-on branch of magic, and so Dumbledore should have, long ago, given her some level of coaching. We understand she’s only there because she is strategically valuable, because she heard the prophecy and she could be tortured into revealing it to Voldemort, which would be bad. But if you’re going to have somebody be this teacher here, go and give them the education and the skills to be able to actually teach the subject that you’re appointing them to. Otherwise, the second that a evaluator comes in, they’re going to do exactly what Umbridge did! I’m not saying Umbridge did the right thing, but we can see why Trelawney is now in hot water for not being a great teacher, even at surface level. At the very least, if Trelawney were a good teacher, you’d have more students rising up in outrage against Umbridge for putting Trelawney on probation. As it stands, that doesn’t happen.

Laura: No. I mean, as a student, you really couldn’t come to her defense, because it’s true.

Micah: I do think it’s important, though, that you differentiated between the fact that she’s not a fraud as a Seer, because she is a Seer, right? She’s a fraud when it comes to teaching, but how is that any different from somebody like Hagrid? And we could talk about that, but Hagrid is not a good teacher either, but we don’t… I mean, we do see him ultimately suffer the same fate as Trelawney, right?

Eric: No, that’s such a good point. I forgot… but the way you put it is right. She’s not a fraud as a Seer…

Micah: No.

Eric: … except she thinks that she is. Dumbledore has allowed her to think that she is a fraud, which, if he had actually just told her, “Hey, you made a legitimate prophecy; I can’t tell you what it was, but you did make one,” I think that would have, 16 years ago, gone a long way to boosting her confidence, which she lacks so deeply, and maybe would have helped her on her journey to being a good, competent teacher.

Laura: Well, and we also know she makes a second correct prophecy in Book 3, and I’m guessing Dumbledore never tells her this.

Eric: But that would be huge news, but she doesn’t remember making them and so as far as she knows, she is… she’s operating under the illusion that she is a false Seer and could not live up to her ancestry line.

Laura: Yeah. Well, I think probably she folds under the societal expectation that a Seer should be able to just predict the future on the spot at command, kind of like Umbridge tried to do. And probably the reality is that maybe that’s not how it works for Seers. Maybe it’s really actually normal for Seers to only have a handful of visions in their lifetime.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: But we never get really any clarity on how that works.

Eric: Yeah, and I mean, no one alive today probably remembers a Seer that they knew and how it worked.

Laura: Yeah. Well, moving forward a little bit to the main event of the chapter, we find the trio in the common room. Fred and George are onto another phase of their Skiving Snackboxes, and we’ll chat about that a little bit in the odds and ends. But after everyone has gone to bed and only the trio remain in the common room, Sirius just appears in the fireplace, and he confirms for the trio that, at least from the Order’s side of the equation, they were overheard in the Hog’s Head by Mundungus. And even though he gives them a little crap for starting an illegal self-defense group, he’s looking at Harry with pride. He doesn’t have a problem with what they’re doing; he’s just very quick to tell them, “Oh, sweet children, this is so cute. Clearly, you’ve never formed an illegal society before. Let me help you.” [laughs]

Andrew: “You’ve got a lot to learn, Hermione.”

Laura: Yeah, she does. That’s what we talked about.

Eric: He even says, “Should have done it in the Three Broomsticks.”

Andrew: Yeah, I loved that he said that to her. [laughs] “And I think it’s great that you did this, but Molly doesn’t, so Ron, she wants you to be better.”

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: The whole Molly thing is really interesting to me, because Sirius is relaying the message that Molly wants Ron to not participate in this secret group. She knows that Harry is behind it with Hermione’s help; she knows that the three of them are putting this together because all that info she would have heard from Dung, and she does not approve. She tells to Ron, via Sirius, there will be plenty of time later for him to learn defensive magic, which means in a few years. My question for you guys is, is Molly in the same Order of the Phoenix as everyone else that’s talking about Voldemort being back?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There is no three years from now! “There’s plenty of time later to learn defense.” It is an outrage what Umbridge is doing to classes.

Andrew: [imitating Hagrid] “It’s a scandal!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: These students need to learn defense! I understand Molly is worried, but how can you possibly justify her giving this message to Ron to just not participate? Because that puts him in harm’s way! Everything she’s hoping doesn’t happen to any of her children are going to happen if they can’t defend themselves.

Micah: To layer on to your question, Eric, how is her request any different than Percy’s?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Rough.

Micah: He’s just the messenger, right?

Eric: Well, right, because…

Andrew: I think Molly is stuck between a rock and a hard place. She’s part of the resistance, but she’s also trying to be a mother, and I think that’s probably a really difficult position for her to be in, the mother of a child who’s also best friends with Harry Potter. There’s a lot at play here.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. I think the thing is… I think where Molly goes wrong here is she doesn’t offer any alternatives, like to come at him and be like, “Hey, I understand. I want you to be able to help too. Let’s talk about some other ways that you can help that are not as dangerous as this.”

Eric: She’s downplaying the threat, is the problem. Maybe not fully consciously, but that’s what it amounts to. And I think the difference between – to answer your question, Micah, or to try to, because it’s a great question – what the difference is between what Percy says to do and what Molly says to do is that Percy tells Ron to go straight to Umbridge and confess everything Harry is doing.

Micah: That’s fair.

Eric: But Molly, in telling Ron not to join Harry and Hermione and the resistance, is essentially telling him to not be an effective resistor, is to lay down and allow the takeover of Hogwarts and everything to happen, is to be in some way complicit in the disarming of students in a time of great terror, so… they’re similar.

Andrew: She could have said something like, “Hey, I don’t want you to do this at the school. How about you come home? How about you come to 12 Grimmauld Place, and we’ll teach y’all some lessons there?”

Eric: Over Christmas break.

Andrew: Christmas break. A Christmas in training.

Laura: Yeah, that’d be a good idea.

Eric: Well, Harry could learn from Lupin again! It would be utterly amazing.

Andrew: Yeah, that would sell Harry on the idea, I’m sure.

Eric: Ah, that would be so good.

Laura: Definitely.

Eric: “Hey guys, why don’t…?” Yeah.

Micah: I don’t think it’s necessarily a fair place to put Sirius in either, delivering this message on her behalf.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I do think, though, at the same time, it speaks to what was brought up about the fact – Andrew, you mentioned this – Molly is in a tough spot, right? She can’t convey this because she’s on guard duty right now, and we know what she’s protecting, but also her family is so immersed in the Order. Arthur is in constant danger. We don’t know what Bill and Charlie necessarily are up to, but the fact that… go back to “The Woes of Mrs. Weasley” earlier in this book. She’s trying, in this moment, to do everything that she can to protect her family, and she recognizes the risk that somebody like Umbridge poses at Hogwarts, and she doesn’t want Ron stepping in it, so she’s trying to control the situation as much as she can.

Laura: True. It is a good point, because as you pointed out, literally everyone in the Weasley family is in danger in one way or another. And she’s probably thinking, “At least four of my children are at Hogwarts, which is probably one of the safest places for them to be, as long as they just keep their heads down and mind their business.” It’s probably out of frustration, too, I have to imagine, that she’s like, “Can you just not put yourself in danger, please? I have too much to worry about.”

Micah: 100%.

Andrew: Yeah, and none of us are parents here, so I want to include this comment from Michelle, who’s listening live on our Patreon tonight. She said, “I identify very much with Molly in this book as a mom. I would protect my kids at all costs, even if they are mad at me about it. She just is terrified something will happen to them. It is the worst nightmare.”

Laura: Totally.

Micah: Yeah, and we’ve mentioned this in a couple of episodes, too, but Molly lost two brothers in the previous war, and that has to be sitting in the back of her mind at all times.

Andrew: 100%.

Eric: And they could defend themselves.

Laura: Well, before Sirius can be much help in figuring out other locations for them to have DA practice, a certain stubby-fingered hand appears in the fireplace, kind of reaching and raking through the coals. Sirius even seems to sense that it’s coming in the fire; they see him looking around and looking behind him.

Andrew: He felt a little tickle on his backside.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] Oh, God, please. I don’t need to imagine Umbridge doing that either.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But this is just confirmation, again, of something Harry was told a few pages ago, that the Floo Network, just like every other channel of communication at Hogwarts, is being monitored. This is not a way for them to talk to Sirius. It’s not a way for them to talk to anyone, unless they go to Umbridge’s office, but they’ll do that later.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: How much information do we think Umbridge is able to get this way? Can she see and not hear? Can she see and hear everything?

Eric: It’s weird. Maybe she… because Sirius looks around a minute before it happens, like he hears her come in the room kind of thing maybe, so Sirius is probably…

Andrew: Coming down the chimney. Ho, ho, ho! Hem, hem, hem!

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: She’s probably making a lot of noise, yeah. But no, the thing I appreciate the most is that Sirius has some level of sixth sense about it, and because he doesn’t have that sixth sense sooner, it indicates to me that she just joined the call or the conference or whatever, so that she would have heard very little, but enough to know who it was who was speaking to the Gryffindor common room.

Micah: My sense was always that she could sense that the Floo Network was being utilized in that particular part of the castle, so she knew somebody in Gryffindor tower was utilizing the Floo Network, but beyond that, I don’t think she knew who it was or what kind of conversation was going on.

Andrew: I agree with that take, because it’s described as her kind of thrashing around, trying to grab hold of something, which implies to me she doesn’t have a full handle on who is speaking, what is being said. She’s still trying to reach for it, grab it somehow, if that’s even possible.

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I was wondering. Would it be possible for her to touch Sirius somehow, via Floo Network?

Andrew: There’s a lot I would like to know about how this all works.

Eric: I think she could pull him through the fire into her office.

Laura: Oof, terrible.

Eric: And then kill him.

Micah: That would be bad for her, honestly. It wouldn’t go well for her.

Eric: You just don’t know, right? Yeah, the implication, I think, because her hands are swatting at him, or trying to grab him, I think she could put… the funniest use of the Floo Powder is the toast in the mouth of Amos Diggory, but it can get a lot more sinister than that.

Laura: Yeah, definitely. Well, that’s the end of our chapter, but we will get into our MVP of the Week and some odds and ends here.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: So for MVP of the Week, I have a question for y’all related to this very topic of Umbridge coming through the fire: What is the best way to react to Umbridge crashing your secret Floo call with your escaped convict godfather?

Andrew: I would try to slice her hand off and then throw water on the fire.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Wait, what? You just have a stray knife?

Andrew: I’d grab the sword of Gryffindor and thrash it about, yeah, and then throw water on the fire.

Eric: Yeah, that could close the call. That would be like hanging up. I like it. I have a more of a comedic response. “Oh, shit, it’s the po-po!” And run, tripping over the back of the armchair behind you.

Micah: For me, look, it’s three on one. Pull that bitch through the Floo and light her ass up.

Andrew: [laughs] God.

Laura: My goodness, this went so much more violently than I imagined.

Andrew: I know.

Eric: I’m looking forward to all the bleeping that has to be done in post.

Micah: I was going to say maybe have Crookshanks lick her fingers and then she wouldn’t stick her hand in there anymore, but she likes cats. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but she likes cats.

Eric: Oh, Crookshanks could get at her. That would be fun.

Laura: See, I was going to go the Hogwarts Legacy route here and cast Glacius on the fire to freeze the fire, as well as Umbridge.

Eric: I like that a lot.

Laura: To be like, “Try that again.”

Andrew: Me too.

Micah: That’s the PG version of all this.


Odds & Ends


Laura: And now we’ll get into some odds and ends here quickly. First thing: I wanted to call out the Sloth Grip Roll in Quidditch. This was something that Angelina called out as them needing to practice, and I just got a kick out of imagining what this would look like.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: We’ve talked about this before, but the founders of Hogwarts thinking boys were untrustworthy. There is this moment in the chapter where Ron tries to charge up to the girls’ dormitory and the stairs turn into a slide, which he thinks is unfair, but Hermione is able to give him, I think, some pretty contextually appropriate reasoning for why that happens, based on when the castle was built. Crookshanks, very interestingly, during this sequence where Sirius is in the fire, is trying to get his face close to Sirius, and at one point Hermione even has to scoop him away from the fire to keep him from singing his whiskers.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: We’ve talked about before how Sirius and Crookshanks have a special bond, and we don’t get to see it a ton, but in moments where these characters are in the same space, Crookshanks takes the liking to Sirius that I don’t think he takes to anyone else.

Eric: Even Hermione.

Andrew: It’s really sweet.

Laura: Yeah, it is very sweet.

Eric: Yeah, Crookshanks was Sirius’s only connection to Hogwarts and the students when he had to be still outside the castle.

Laura: Yeah. And we briefly mentioned this in the discussion, but Fred and George are in the common room, and they seem to have found a new way around all of Hermione’s rules about advertising and testing their Skiving Snackboxes, and it’s to test them and demonstrate them on themselves, so they are literally demonstrating, over and over again, Puking Pastilles.

Eric: This is gross.

Laura: Yeah, one of the twins is just repeatedly barfing into a bucket, [laughs] and the other twin gives him the other tab so that he gets better again, and he’s just doing this over and over again. But they’re making a ton of money, and even Hermione has to admit begrudgingly that they’re not breaking any rules.

Eric: That she can find.

Andrew: But she also says that their skillset is useless…

Laura: Wrong.

Andrew: … when Harry wonders why they hadn’t done better on their OWLs, and I just found this so ignorant and book smart of her to say. They are street smart, and I know the activity that they’re participating in right now isn’t the sexiest thing to be doing…

Eric: Uh, it’s the opposite of that.

Andrew: … but you’ve got to look at the bigger picture here! They’re inventing very original products that students are entertained by. And yeah, they didn’t read about these in a book, but it doesn’t mean they can’t be successful with this skillset.

Eric: It’s just a failure of imagination on Hermione’s part if she can’t find something to get them to stop right now. She says they’re not breaking any rules she could find. Guess what? What about disturbing the peace? They’re retching repeatedly! The smell has got to be awful; the sound is distracting. Kids are doing homework in the common room, or trying to, and there has to be some level of disturbing the peace or just being freaking gross that… if I’m not even a prefect, I would go up to them and get them to stop somehow. This is just awful.


Lynx Line


Laura: Well, we also like to ask a question of the week of our supporters over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast, so we’re going to move into the Lynx Line now, and this is, again, our weekly question for listeners over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And this week’s question is what did Mundungus Fletcher do to get banned from the Hog’s Head 20 years previously?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: We learn that Mundungus was disguised as a witch in the Hog’s Head; that’s how he overheard what Harry and company were doing, and he’s in disguise while he’s monitoring Harry because he was banned from the sketchiest pub in town 20 years ago. Whatever this is, there is a grudge that runs deep here, because it does not seem like Aberforth is very discerning about his clientele. I think he’s happy to have anyone in there. [laughs]

Andrew: Let’s hear some theories, then. Xavier said,

“My guess, knowing Dung and Aberforth, is that Dung tried to steal and sell one of Aberforth’s goats.”

[Eric gasps]

“Seeing this, Aberforth exploded and let out a century’s worth of rage and anger.”

Eric: [laughs] Whoa!

“He hexed Dung out of his mind, and a battle broke out, which gave the pub its unique aura of unkemptness, and at the end of the battle, Dung gets banned from the pub. The message here is, NEVER MESS WITH ABERFORTH’S GOATS.”

Andrew: … in front of me.

Micah: Never, never.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow. Robert wrote, “Obviously, Dung told Aberforth that dogs are better than goats. He barely left with his head after that.”

Micah: Zachary, perhaps Zacharias Smith, says,

“As vile as Mundungus is, I’d like to believe he was doing the right thing this time by trying to liberate the poor goats. And by liberate, I mean steal them to make a profit, yet saving them from the perverse accusations against Aberforth in the process.”

Eric: He’s saving their honor.

Laura: The goats’ honor. Rachel says, “It absolutely had something to do with goats.” So many goats answers to this question, but don’t worry, there are some non-goat related answers coming up.

Eric: I love how you separated them. [laughs]

Laura: Yes. Yeah, I wanted us to be able to run through all the goat answers, because I knew that was going to be half of them, at least. So Rachel goes on to say,

“Maybe instead of stealing one, he slipped some goat hairs into Polyjuice Potion and gave it to Aberforth so Aberforth could be a goat. Obviously, that didn’t go well, since it’s not meant to be for animal transformation. Furious and humiliated, Aberforth banned Mundungus.”

Andrew: Mev, Jason, Ning, Catie, and Justin shared various theories about Dung stealing, selling, offending, and being caught alone with the goats, and also petting the goats.

Laura: “Petting” in quotation marks.

Andrew: “Petting” in quotes.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So those are all the goat answers. How about the non-goat responses, Eric?

Eric: Yeah, Badgerforth says, “Probably stole a cauldron.” And yeah, seems simple, but seems plausible. And Eleanor says,

“I suspect it was something very mundane. Fencing stolen goods! But that’s not so fun… I have an image in my head that won’t go away of party animal Mundungus dancing on the bar and swinging from the chandeliers. I think he could have a secret alter ego that comes out at times, but is perhaps not quite the right vibe for the Hog’s Head.”

That’s fun.

Micah: Angela said,

“Aberforth was doing some inventory in a different room when Mundungus snuck in and set up an unsanctioned karaoke event. He locked Aberforth in the stock room for a few hours while the Hog’s Head inn turned into the wild party place to be. Mundungus even decorated it all with brightly colored decorations. It was so popular, cheerful, and full of witches and wizards having so much fun. Aberforth was furious when he finally got out that he banned Mundungus, and Mundungus was heartbroken, which led him to become who we now know today.”

Laura: Wow. Rachelle says, “He was definitely ‘nicking things’ (mugs, etc.) to resell.”

Andrew: And finally, Emily said,

“He got caught trying to sell stolen crystal goblets that he had previously stolen from the Hog’s Head. Aberforth wasn’t even mad about the theft, but at Dung’s complete stupidity. And the Ministry is still holding the goblets for ‘evidence,’ which explains the dingy glasses there now.”

Laura: Oh, yeah, that explains the dirty glasses.

Eric: It’s a theft deterrent, yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

Laura: I love the idea that the Hog’s Head at one point…

Eric: [laughs] Was fancy?

Laura: No, no, it was still decrepit as hell, but had these fancy goblets.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Great responses as always, everyone. And listeners, don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line benefit every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. There’s a link in the show notes, so please check it out. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We’ll be having our next Muggle Mail episode at Episode 700, so just about a month away. We’ll celebrate that milestone episode of the show, read some emails, and we’ll plan a fun segment or two to celebrate the occasion. Next week, Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army” will be discussed.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question was: In the mid 20th century United Kingdom, pint glasses replaced what type of drinking vessel commonly made of glass, ceramic, or pewter? The correct answer is tankards, everybody, tankards, so Hagrid’s tankard is only a few years out of date. And 36% of people say they did not look that up, and this week’s winners are Buff Daddy; Granger Things; A Healthy Breeze; The Firewhisky-ordering prefect; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; Lock in Lockhart; and Hagrid’s “pint glass of mead” doesn’t have a great ring to it. I agree.

Micah: Where’s Tofu Tom?

Eric: Tofu Tom must have taken the week off. We saw him in the Slug Club… oh, you know what? It might have been an incorrect guess.

Laura: And now you put Tofu Tom on blast?

Eric: I didn’t want to put him on blast; I just…

Micah: I love Tofu Tom. It’s always so nice when the Quizzitch winners, at the very end, you hear “and Tofu Tom.” It’s like the completion of another week’s worth of MuggleCast.

Eric: Wow, that’s really touching.

Laura: Yeah, the show’s not complete is what Micah is saying.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: And Tofu Tom will want to know what next week’s Quizzitch question is. Okay. What bird did the Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages? It’s relevant to this past chapter. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on the MuggleCast website, maybe checking out our must-listens page or our transcripts, click on “Quizzitch” from the top main nav.

Andrew: If you would like more podcasting from the four of us, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for additional pop culture and real world talk. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, we’re talking Nintendo Switch, which just turned eight years old, and we’re looking at what we would like to see from the Switch 2, which comes out later this year. Then over on Millennial, we’re discussing why Kindle users are mad about how Amazon is treating their ebooks, and we’re talking tipping culture in America. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for two decades and counting, and there are a few great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear, including Laura’s pants, hats, hoodies, T-shirts, all kinds of things. Apple Podcasts users can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And then for those benefits and more, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get access to the benefits I just shared, plus our livestreams, Lynx Line participation, a physical gift every year, a personal video message from one of the four of us that we record just for you, and you also get access to our Facebook and Discord communities. Lots of benefits to check out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Another great way to help us out is by leaving a review of the show in your favorite podcast app, or telling one of your Muggle friends about the show. No matter how you support us, we really appreciate it. We’re just an independent podcast, and we’re looking for support any way you are willing to help us out. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’ll see you next week. Watch your fireplaces.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #694

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #694, Rookie Rule Breaker (OOTP Chapter 16, In The Hog’s Head)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books, share the latest news, and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. And this week, grab a few quid and a dirty bottle of butterbeer while we discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “In the Hog’s Head.” I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: I actually brought a Hog’s Head glass to the recording tonight…

Laura: Ahh.

Eric: Whoa!

Andrew: … from the Wizarding World theme parks, yes.

Eric: Ah, man.

Micah: What kind of brew is inside of your mug?

Andrew: I was tempted to actually put beer in this, but it’s just my usual Celsius energy drink that I drink while podcasting.

Micah: What flavor?

Andrew: It’s one of the berry ones. Are you into Celsius now, Micah?

Micah: No, I’m not.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Micah: But I know that there are different flavors.

Eric: I haven’t ever seen it outside the can.

Andrew: Me neither.

Eric: Andrew, are you sure you grabbed the right glass and not the other glass that you keep in your office for emergencies? [laughs]

Andrew: I’ve got to say, I’m not a huge fan of the color. I, too, never see this drink outside of the can, so…

Micah: Well, in fairness, it is a mug from the Hog’s Head, so even if the liquid was clear that you poured into it, it was tainted by whatever Aberforth failed to clean out of that mug.

Andrew: This has been sitting in my cabinet unused for years, so I’m definitely drinking dust tonight.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m very impressed. I have mine in my cabinet; I didn’t think of it.

[Andrew laughs]


News


Andrew: Well, before we get into the chapter, we do have a couple of news items. First of all, Scholastic has announced the interactive illustrated edition of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. The first three books were done by MinaLima, and a few months ago – maybe a year ago now – we told everyone that MinaLima was stepping off the series; they weren’t going to finish it. It was surprising. We didn’t know why. We still don’t know why. People were mad because people love MinaLima; they created all the art in the Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts movies, and they did a great job with those illustrated editions. Goblet of Fire and presumably onward is illustrated by Karl James Mountford, and will have paper-engineered elements designed by Jess Tice-Gilbert. Have you guys looked at the art yet? It looks very similar to MinaLima, so they’re continuing on with the artistic style.

Eric: Yeah, kind of one of our biggest questions was how do they continue this series without – this sounds nuts, but – infringing on MinaLima’s IP in a way?

Laura: Right.

Eric: Because MinaLima had evolved and grown with the movies and the books and the story of Harry Potter for so long that it’s hard to imagine this sort of product taking over for the MinaLima books and not looking a lot like MinaLima. So it looks very deliberate. It looks very nice.

Andrew: It does.

Eric: But yeah, you can see the influence, and I’m just hoping everything works out okay in the courtroom.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I’m sure that this has run through some lawyers. [laughs] I was wondering that too. But yeah, you definitely see the similarities, and yet you do see differences in the designs of the characters.

Laura: Yeah, I agree with that. They might have also cut MinaLima a check for it, for the style, for the influence. Also, they might be getting royalties off of these later editions; even if they didn’t necessarily design them, clearly the design was influenced by theirs, so there could be a deal there for them.

Micah: I don’t want to be a party pooper, but I’m not here for this.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Okay. No, that’s a good take.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: I’m somebody who is very much open to collecting different illustrated versions of the Harry Potter series, and I want to continue with MinaLima, but if they’re not continuing, I’m not continuing with their…

Eric: Ohh, loyalist!

Andrew: Okay, so that’s what’s left a bad taste in your mouth. It’s not necessarily the art that we’re already seeing in these early previews.

Micah: No, I’m sure these are two very hardworking people…

Andrew: I get it.

Micah: … but something doesn’t sit right with me about this.

Andrew: You’re a fan of MinaLima, you wanted MinaLima to continue the series, and now they’re not a part of it, and you’re out. I get it.

Eric: Yeah, I’ll probably be in the same boat. It is funny to read the press release surrounding this sort of thing; it includes the line, “As the US publisher of Harry Potter, it’s exciting to see J.K. Rowling’s beloved series illustrated and reimagined by a talented group of international artists over the years, including Mary Grand-Pré, Brian Selznick, Kazu Kibuishi, Jim Kay, MinaLima, Ziyi Gao, and now Karl James Mountford,” and it’s like, “Oh, don’t worry. MinaLima was just one of nine other artists that we have.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Like they’re not the biggest name in illustrated Harry Potter stuff. “They’re just one of the international artists we’ve worked with before; now we have this new one.” It’s like, okay, downplay the significance of this departure.

Laura: Well, and also, how sketchy it felt, to be perfectly honest.

Eric: It was a bit weird.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Andrew is going to keep me honest, though. In mid to late October, he’s going to look at my bookshelf and say, “Micah, what is that that I see there next to the Prisoner of Azkaban illustrated edition by MinaLima?”

Andrew: Right. Yeah, so the book does come out October 14, 2025. Pretty pricey: $49.99! By comparison, Prisoner of Azkaban was $39.99, and Sorcerer’s Stone and Chamber of Secrets were $37.99. So as the books get longer, the price gets steeper, I guess.

Eric: Yeah, the page count doubles.

Laura: I get it.

Andrew: I get it, I guess. $50 for a book? That does feel really steep.

Laura: Yeah, but it’s an illustrated edition. It’s not just a book.

Eric: True.

Andrew: How much was Jim Kay’s? Let’s see… $48. Okay, so comparable. Plus, this one has interactive elements, so that’s where that extra $2 goes. [laughs]

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: Plus it weighs about 20 lbs.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. And while we’re on the subject of illustrated editions, I just wanted to mention that we still don’t know who’s going to carry on the Jim Kay illustrated series. He did up to Book 5, and Book 5 was co-illustrated by Neil Packer, so maybe he’s taking it over. But we still don’t know who, and there’s only two books left in that series. That’s the one I’ve been sticking with, the one I’ve been loyal to, so I’m eager to hear when Half-Blood Prince is coming.

Eric: Part one or part two?

Andrew: [laughs] Stop trying to make that happen. It’s not going to happen.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Also wanted to mention that Cursed Child is going on tour over the next year, and our listeners may know that already, but new cities for the tour have been announced in recent weeks. It’ll be in Boston this November, followed by Atlanta, Laura, in February 2026…

Laura: Oh.

Andrew: … followed by Minneapolis in April 2026. It’s currently in LA and it’s going to head to DC this summer. Laura, I shouted you out because you actually haven’t seen Cursed Child yet.

Laura: I have not, no, so that’ll be my chance. Is the show going to pay for me to go?

Andrew: Is Cursed Child paying for you to see Cursed Child?

Laura: No.

Andrew: Is MuggleCast? Yeah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Probably.

Eric: As long as you spend less than $419.32, I think this panel will be okay with it.

Laura: Okay.

Micah: Yeah, I think it’s only fair, considering that the three of us saw Cursed Child on behalf of the show.

Laura: True. I was half kidding; I was trying to basically go for a, “I’ll go if the show pays for me to go.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Maybe we could get you a press screening, Laura.

Laura: Oh, that’d be cool.

Eric: Andrew, that number was the price of tickets when it was two parts that we saw it for my 30th birthday.

Micah: And it was opening night.

Andrew: Ohh, okay.

Laura: I look forward to actually getting to see the good stuff about Cursed Child because it really… by all accounts, you just have to see it, and actually beholding all of the elements is the experience, and just don’t pay too much attention to the story.

Andrew: Right, yeah. No, it’s definitely worth seeing. If anybody’s been considering it, on the fence about it, I would definitely recommend it. It’s way better an experience than reading the script book, and the magic is very impressive. And I’m interested in seeing this leaner version of the show myself, so I definitely want to see it again; I’ve only seen the two-part version. And Micah, you have a news item for us too?

Micah: I do. So I was traveling for work last week, and apparently I wasn’t the only one, because I was out in San Francisco for the All-Star game, and I found out that Emma Watson didn’t let me know that she was going to be at the celebrity game.

Andrew: Ahh.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And this is an event that takes place the Friday night of All-Star Weekend.

Andrew: NBA All-Stars.

Micah: NBA All-Star, yes. And she was in Oakland; I was in San Francisco, so I wouldn’t have been able to make it over, but if I knew she was going to be there, I probably would have made an exception and asked to go to the celebrity game versus the event that I was at on Friday night.

Andrew: All right, this is a mix of fanboying and humble bragging. [laughs]

Eric: We’re going to write an article for missed connections on behalf of Micah and Emma not meeting up at the All-Star game.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: But what I found interesting is that they played this up as a very rare public appearance for her. She’s not somebody who is normally out and about…

Laura: No, you’re right. She really isn’t.

Micah: … the way that we may see some other Potter stars.

Andrew: But that goes to show you how big a deal NBA All-Stars is. Emma is emerging from her cave and attending a basketball…

Laura: [laughs] Her cave?

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s this rare public appearance.

Laura: You think she lives in a cave?

Andrew: Where is she hiding normally? I don’t know. Where is she hiding? This is according to E! Online.

Micah: Isn’t she studying for a master’s degree?

Laura: I think she and her brother recently came out with their own gin. I don’t think she’s hiding.

Andrew: What?!

Micah: See, Andrew, she’s clearly not communicating with you either. You didn’t even know she has her own gin.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m a huge gin fan.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, damn. I’m going to Total Wine tonight to see if I can find this.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Oh, it’s only in the UK, it looks like. Darn. All right. Well, luckily for me, I’m going over there in May, so I’ll try it then.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right. Well, sorry, Micah, that you missed Emma. Better luck next NBA All-Stars.

Micah: I’m more angry at some colleagues who didn’t give me the heads up. That’s who I’m really mad at.

Andrew: There you go. Well, as we continue to analyze the books and share news with everybody and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we could really use your support, listeners, at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your financial support allows us to focus more time on the show and less time in the Muggle world, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits like bonus MuggleCast episodes, a new physical gift every year, ad-free episodes of the show, and access to our exclusive Facebook and Discord groups for Harry Potter fans and MuggleCast listeners, so be sure to check that all out. Again, it’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and thank you to everybody who supports us; we really appreciate it. Coming soon in a bonus MuggleCast, I review Emma Watson’s gin.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I can’t wait. The hunt for Emma Watson’s gin across all the UK.

Micah: I think that would be great content.

Laura: Yeah, actually, we should.

Andrew: All right, I’ll make a note of that. So the show’s going to buy me the gin and Laura the Cursed Child ticket. [laughs]

Eric: Look, Andrew, while you’re there, pick up some for the rest of us.

Andrew: Okay.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: All right, well, without further ado, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “In the Hog’s Head.” But it’s not the first time, right, Eric?

Eric: That’s right; we last discussed Chapter 16 on Episode 452 of MuggleCast. The title of that episode was “Essence of Goat,” which I think perfectly describes what goes on in the Hog’s Head. And that episode is from February 4, 2020. Here is the clip.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 452.

Micah: “… with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.”

Eric: [laughs] Hey.

Andrew: Hmm, why is that?

Micah: I wonder why.

Andrew: And I love that his first words to Harry was just, “What?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Because this is the antithesis of Albus Dumbledore. Albus Dumbledore: well-spoken, has all these amazing lines… and then Aberforth’s first word is, “What?” It’s just a perfect contrast.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, really throws you off the scent. Did any of us, when we were reading this book for the first time, suspect that this was Dumbledore’s brother?

Andrew: Right. No.

Laura: I didn’t.

Andrew: If Aberforth walked up and said, “What do you want to drink? It is our choices that tell us who we really are.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That would have been suspicious.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: Well, there was no other chapter I’d rather return to MuggleCast for than this one.

Eric: Welcome back, Micah.

Micah: Such an appropriate chapter for us to discuss this week. And look, we start things off; we’re headed to Hogsmeade, but not before we get sniffed at a little bit – literally sniffed at – by Filch. So does everybody not have contraband on them as we head to a little time off here in the Hog’s Head?

Laura: No promises.

Andrew: No, sir. Let’s do it.

Eric: [laughs] Laura is just…

Micah: Andrew, I’m wary of you. I’m afraid you’re going to get us stopped for some reason, and Filch is going to pull you over to the side.

Andrew: Excuse you. I got nothing to hide.

Micah: Well, you’ve all heard of Hogwarts: A History; now it’s going to be time for the Hog’s Head: a history. I figured we could have a little bit of fun with this Hogsmeade dive bar.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: What?

Andrew: I guess it is a dive bar.

Micah: It is a dive bar.

Laura: It is totally a dive bar.

Micah: At night, that place is popping.

Andrew: [laughs] Seedy as hell.

Eric: This is one of the places I would not actually take a dive in on any circumstance. If my face is that close to the ground, I’m going to throw up.

Andrew: It probably does not smell nice in there.

Micah: Well, it depends if you like essence of goat.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: If you don’t, then it probably doesn’t smell great at all. It probably… are we thinking it smells like when you go to a petting zoo?

Eric: Maybe. Stone floor with tons of… I don’t know; I imagine hay, a hay-like scent, but just a buildup of grime over a hundred years. Yeah, I think that’s probably not far off. Also, people smell. That’s just a general fact, too. It doesn’t need to smell so much like animals; if they don’t have proper cleanliness, it’s going to be the stuffiest kind of just grimy bar in every way imaginable.

Andrew: I imagine it smelling like Bourbon Street in New Orleans. It smells like several things I don’t want to have to bleep on the show, so I won’t.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It just smells very nasty there. Anything that could come out of the human body, that’s what Bourbon Street smells like.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: You think that’s what the Hog’s Head smells like, though?

Andrew: Yeah!

Laura: I don’t think people are having raves at the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I don’t think they have Bourbon Street energy in the Hog’s Head, to be clear.

Andrew: I don’t know. Well, all right, all right, I do like the farm idea. I could definitely imagine it smelling like hay, I think Eric mentioned.

Eric: Yeah, maybe like sour milk.

Laura: Oof. Yeah, maybe like a cross between a petting zoo and a dive bar, because that’s basically what this is. [laughs]

Micah: Well, the official text says that “It was not at all like the Three Broomsticks, whose large bar gave an impression of gleaming warmth and cleanliness. The Hog’s Head bar comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty room that smelt strongly of something that might have been goats. The bay windows were so encrusted with grime that very little daylight could permeate the room, which was lit instead with the stubs of candles sitting on rough wooden tables. The floor seemed at first glance to be earthy, though as Harry stepped onto it he realized that there was stone beneath what seemed to be the accumulated filth of centuries.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Eugh. That’s terrible. Has anyone ever experienced that?

Eric: Laura, you typically enjoy a dive bar.

Laura: I do love a good dive bar. I can’t say that I’ve ever been in one that was quite this filthy, but I think it’s to be expected in a dive bar environment that it’s not going to be gleaming, shining, beautiful in terms of the environment. It’s going to be a little grubby. It’s going to be a little grungy. But you can get some good beers there. Actually, one of my favorite…

Andrew: It’s going to be dark. It’s going to be cozy. It’s going to be cheap.

Laura: Thank you. That too.

Micah: And a little odorous.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: For sure. You can count on that there. [laughs]

Andrew: Bourbon Street.

Eric: Well, I will say – this is maybe a slight preview of next week’s Quizzitch question – but in general, the UK is full of these pubs that have been there for over a hundred years. You can actually find pubs that have been in operation since the 1800s.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. That’s one of the amazing things about England and the UK, all the old bars.

Eric: Yeah, so that casts it in almost a pleasant light in the sense of just tradition. Like, “My grandfather drank here every night” kind of a thing.

Andrew: Laura, you have a dive bar recommendation, right?

Laura: Oh, yeah. So actually, one of my favorite dive bars is in New York City; it’s in Greenwich Village. It’s the Old Rabbit Club. Micah, if you’ve never been, you should. They have so many amazing beers from around the world, and it is this cramped little basement, clearly intended to be used for storage, and somebody just turned it into a dive bar. But it’s really, really good.

Andrew: I also have a New York dive bar recommendation. Laura, you and I have been there. It’s called DBL: Dive Bar Lounge.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Let’s just say Dumbledore would be a big fan of DBL.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Micah, I think you should go for research purposes. It’s in Hell’s Kitchen.

Micah: [laughs] And report back to you?

Andrew: Oh, look at this – I’m not even joking – just around the corner is a coffee shop called the Jolly Goat Coffee Bar. This was made to be.

Laura: It’s meant to be.

Andrew: Aberforth can hang out at the coffee bar and Albus can hang out at DBL. This is the slowest-moving Chapter by Chapter ever.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You know what? This is actually maybe the most faithful way of discussing this chapter, as a matter of fact.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: We’re all looking at different types of bars.

Eric: “What are your favorite bars? In what ways are they similar to the Hog’s Head?”

Laura: I mean, it does set the scene for what’s about to happen.

Andrew: It sure does.

Micah: It does, because despite its appearance, part of the allure is the fact that it isn’t all that appealing to the average person, right? And we see a lot of business go down here throughout the course of the Harry Potter series. There’s even an event that is rumored to have taken place all the way back in 1612, the goblin rebellion. The Hog’s Head was supposedly a hideaway of sorts for witches and wizards during this rebellion.

Eric: I’d rebel too when I got a look at these cleanliness standards.

Micah: Well, you clearly want Umbridge to come here and investigate and clean it up, right?

Eric: I think she could just straighten it out a little bit, yeah. I think she could shape people up.

Micah: But I would say for us, the most notable event that’s taken place here prior to the meeting of Dumbledore’s Army is the prophecy. This is where Trelawney delivers Harry and Voldemort’s prophecy to Dumbledore to an eavesdropping Snape. It takes place just above the pub here in the Hog’s Head.

Eric: Yeah, this is such a storied place, and it’s almost… I don’t know, humble origins. This is like where Christ’s manger was.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s that level of destitute, and just totally… you would never suspect, but everyone who’s here uses this place for exactly what it offers. The students use it because it’s a way to not be overheard, but – asterisk – only by the people that they don’t want to be overheard by. [laughs] They’re overheard by all these spies. As it turns out, everyone in there that’s not a student is pretty much working for somebody else, which is how their secret gets out, but that’s getting ahead of ourselves. But the people that are in here prefer it in here for what it’s offering, and Hagrid is a regular; he also prefers the clientele that this place attracts. They’re the sort of people who are more likely to have a hidden dragon egg for trade on them than the kind that are right off the main drag.

Micah: Right, this is where that conversation takes place between Hagrid and Quirrellmort. And we know, of course, coming in Deathly Hallows there’s a secret passage that is created from the Hog’s Head to Hogwarts for the members of Dumbledore’s Army to be able to communicate regularly with Aberforth, so lots of good things coming out of a place that smells like goats.

Eric: And you almost forgot to mention, Micah, that you and I first tried Firewhisky in the Hog’s Head.

Micah: Oh, yeah. That’s right.

Eric: Down in Orlando.

Andrew: And I just showed off this cup; I got it at the Hog’s Head.

Eric: Yes!

Andrew: And I have to say, this is one of my favorite places to hang out at the Wizarding World lands. It’s sort of like how it’s described in the books. It’s dark, it’s cozy, it’s clean… thank goodness.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You don’t have to worry about any unwashed cups, and the floor is squeaky clean and all that. But it’s a nice spot to hang out, and there’s even a back patio. If you’re looking at the bar, you turn to the left, you can get onto a back patio, which is a quiet spot if you’re trying to catch a break from all the hustle and bustle, so yeah. Oh, and the literal hog’s head hanging behind the bar comes to life every five to ten minutes or whatever it is, so it’s a good spot.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really cool. And for all the reasons that you tend to avoid theme parks, the Hog’s Head section of that theme park is the respite from the main crowd. There could be hours long waits to get into or get food at the Three Broomsticks, but the small room off the side of it that’s the Hog’s Head, maybe there’s a line out the door 5-10 people deep. You’re served; you get a drink, at least, in 20 minutes.

Micah: And there’s a bit of an underground drink menu, right? I feel like we’ve ordered off of that a couple times.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a secret menu. I’m trying to remember.

Andrew: I think they do have hard liquor, but they don’t advertise it?

Eric: I think that’s it.

Andrew: Don’t quote me on that, but I think that’s what’s going on.

Eric: Yeah, I think somebody told us to get a Long Island Iced Tea, and it was the strongest Long Island I’ve ever had. [laughs]

Micah: Well, it was very helpful for me in terms of being able to get onto Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure.

Andrew: Helpful?!

Micah: Since I am not a roller coaster person.

Andrew: Oh. That’s an easy roller coaster, though. And I hate roller coasters; if I could do that Hagrid one, you can too.

Micah: Okay. Well, I did, with the help of the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I will say my favorite hack that I’ve done is I’ve brought in a plastic shot of Fireball and then I order a butterbeer at the Hog’s Head, and then I dump the little thing of Fireball into the butterbeer, and then I have an alcoholic butterbeer to enjoy at the Wizarding World. Because I think, as most people know, when you order butterbeer at the parks, it’s not actually alcoholic, unfortunately, for us adults.

Micah: Well, the Hog’s Head is a quieter space, which means that the group that is gathering here is much more easily overheard. So while it is off the beaten path and secluded, it’s certainly more noticeable when a group of Hogwarts students are there on their free weekend. So while Hermione may have had the right thought initially about where to gather, was this the right choice?

Laura: No, it wasn’t.

Andrew: Really?

Laura: And obviously we know Hermione gets called out for this later, but I honestly think they would have done better to meet up at the Three Broomsticks or somewhere where it was more common for students to be gathering. In an environment where it’s already really loud, it’s going to be harder for people to overhear you. You’re not going to look out of place; you’re not going to raise any questions for anyone. It’s kind of like being hidden in plain sight.

Eric: I like that for sure, that aspect of it. Yeah, ultimately this is still early stages, so the fact that they met up and had a meeting and were seen and overheard doing so, there’s still not, ultimately, a lot of info to report on them. It’s best that they get this out of the way and then immediately find a more secluded place to actually do the meetings, which is what happens. But had they had to have another type of meeting here, it wouldn’t have worked, and all of the details of everything they were attempting to do would have been leaked to the very least people that they wanted.

Andrew: I do like this from a creative perspective, though, in terms of the author’s choice, because I think it does symbolize… the Hog’s Head symbolizes the underground nature of their meeting and their intentions. It’s this dark, seedy place with mystery people. This is a… they’re undercover, if you will, at the Hog’s Head, making some plans that their superiors would not like them to be making, so I just like it from a symbolism perspective.

Eric: I like that. I mean, it’s exactly the sort of place you’d expect something subversive to be getting off the ground, except in this case, it’s students trying to get educated.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It’s all about that going underground feel, exactly that. And yeah, I think it would actually be really natural for someone this age to think that this would be the right meeting location because of all of the ways that we’ve described it. But as people who’ve reached adulthood, I think we would choose somewhere else.

Eric: I mean, Madam Puddifoot’s is another common place where it really wouldn’t be too out of place. Also, the Three Broomsticks does have that room upstairs that Flitwick and McGonagall and Cornelius retire to. I understand that you probably have to speak with Rosmerta, but we know that her sympathies would probably… somebody somewhere – maybe Fred – gets on really well with Rosmerta, so they could probably use that room.

Micah: [laughs] What does that mean?

Eric: I just mean he has a good rapport.

Micah: Oh, I can see that.

Andrew: See, I don’t think the issue is necessarily the location; it’s Hermione shrugging off the idea that Umbridge or somebody else could be at the Hog’s Head right now. This comes up in this chapter; Harry or somebody says, “Could that tall woman over there be Umbridge?” And then Hermione is like, “Umbridge is shorter than that woman.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Okay? So Umbridge is walking around on stilts to disguise herself; something like that could feasibly happen in the wizarding world. Umbridge aside, there could be somebody else there who shouldn’t be overhearing what they’re talking about. Lucius could be there, for all we know, under one of these cloaks. It just seems very irresponsible and out of character for Hermione to not be suspicious of who is exactly in the bar at that moment.

Laura: Well, she’s out of her element, honestly. Hermione doesn’t really have street smarts.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Laura: And I feel like she kind of bit off more than she could chew here, because we see how nervous she is when she’s finally up in front of everyone, and it’s her job to pull everybody together and explain to them why they’re here. She kind of realizes she maybe didn’t… at least it seemed to me she realizes she didn’t prepare as much as she should have.

Eric: When you take that into account, it makes more sense that she’s leading with this magical security that she has with the list, the fact that she protects what they’re doing the only way that she can. There’s a lot of elements that she can’t control, the fact that it’s so tight with her spellwork on the contract that they sign, and locking them in in that way maybe accounts for – or she assumes will account for – the backup. But I’ve got to give props to Hermione anyway because Harry is making this damn near impossible. She has done him a real solid by putting him up to this, saying that she thinks he would be a great teacher, and even though he’s flattered or likes the idea, he still doesn’t say anything for two weeks after that gets suggested, and she has to prod him, and he snaps at her, and she’s like, “Oh, and don’t snap at me,” and he’s like, “Oh, I’m not,” but he wants to. The fact that she makes this happen, she goes around, she does the outreach, she gets all the people from all the Houses to actually show up, and manages to do so up to this point undetected… Hermione is the MVP here. Yes, she does not account for everything, but this would not have happened were it not for Hermione, and then including all of the future things that she does to make the DA happen, like the coins… I’m just very impressed by… this book really wouldn’t have worked without her.

Laura: Totally. And I don’t think anyone here is criticizing her by any… because at the end of the day, she’s a child in this moment, and it’s actually really incredible – to your point, Eric – that she does accomplish everything that she accomplishes with the DA from the beginning.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: They really end up doing the exact thing that Umbridge and Fudge are afraid that they’re going to do, and that is forming Dumbledore’s Army. And I think that Hermione definitely should get credit for organizing all of this, but may have been a little bit shortsighted in picking the location. We, of course, as adults can sit here and debate the pros and cons of doing it at the Hog’s Head…

Laura: Of course.

Micah: … but there were real concerns that should have been in the back of her mind, especially when Harry was raising it, which somebody brought up earlier. And we do know – and we’ll talk a little bit about this later on – that there are two people, actually, of importance that overhear these conversations. One goes to Dumbledore; the other goes to Umbridge.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: So it really is surprising that Hermione wouldn’t have taken that a little bit more into account. Though I will say, going to a place like the Three Broomsticks or someplace else that’s well known within Hogsmeade… this is not a small group of people.

Andrew: [laughs] No.

Micah: This is 25 people congregating together, so that in and of itself likely would have drawn some attention as well. But I do want to briefly talk about… I know we referenced Aberforth in our MuggleCast Time-Turner segment, but the person at the bar who looks vaguely familiar to Harry. I know Harry has a lot on his mind here, but he couldn’t give it a little bit more thought of “Why does this person look familiar to me?” And nobody else sees it either? Not Ron, not Hermione?

Andrew: It’s a fun little Easter egg teasing what’s to come and who it actually is. But again, you think about this space. It’s dark in there; there’s a lot of people around. Harry is probably a little nervous about this upcoming meeting. He’s not thinking totally clearly about who this could potentially be, so I forgive him for this.

Eric: Yeah, if he were bored out of his mind, not there doing anything else, and found himself with a few hours to kill, he’d nail it. He’d know exactly who this guy was. But that’s sort of also the brilliance of how – again, getting back to the manger scene here – you wouldn’t expect the brother of Albus Dumbledore, renowned wizard, to be found in this place.

Andrew: No.

Eric: Why it works that Aberforth is spying for Albus, too, and his brother, is because nobody would suspect. They usually… I imagine ne’er-do-wells would go into this pub to do something that is not going to be known or noticed by Albus Dumbledore specifically, and that’s the brilliance of it all, is the fact that… yeah.

Micah: Yeah, because his brother is there spying, most likely.

Eric: Well, exactly.

Micah: When they’re on speaking terms, of course. So Eric, you were talking a little bit about this earlier: Harry’s thought process in whether or not he should teach Defense Against the Dark Arts. And eventually, Hermione does get him to come around, and he does say he’s given it quite a bit of thought. And I’m wondering, is there a part of him – knowing that he is part Harry, part Horcrux, and that Voldemort so much desired to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts – that maybe part of this is the Horcrux, part of it is Harry? Or maybe not, but I wanted to throw it out there.

Eric: I think he doesn’t go into this like he does so many other things, with a vengeance or an anger of wanting to get Umbridge. The rebellion thing is a side effect, essentially. The rebellious tone that Dumbledore’s Army takes, and the sort of tongue-in-cheek rebelliousness, is ultimately secondhand. If Harry wanted revenge for what Umbridge did to his hand and was therefore starting this group, I would suggest that the Horcrux is deeply involved in his decision-making here, but this seems to be almost like a bright light into the purity of Harry, and his ability to escape Voldemort to this point comes from the light side. Though, maybe the dark. But I think right now, it’s probably not the Horcrux, in my opinion.

Andrew: I agree with that as well. Harry is always an adventurous person; he’s up for trying new things. He’s a born leader. We see in this chapter he’s subconsciously planning out lessons after Hermione dropped the seed in his head. And I think he’s inspired by his friends, too, to lead this class. He knows they need him. He probably is flattered that they think he could lead a class. So yeah, I just think it’s in Harry’s character to actually realize that he wants to lead this class.

Laura: I was just reflecting on Harry’s experiences earlier in this book, where he was really jealous of Ron and Hermione being prefects and feeling like he didn’t have anything he was being celebrated for, and he was going through that running list in his head of all the things he’d done that Ron and Hermione hadn’t done, and he finally had to sit back and admit to himself, “I’m better at Quidditch, but I’m not better at anything else.” And I think that kind of tanked Harry’s morale for a while there, so it’s actually good to see him realize, “Oh, I do have something that I’m good at. I do have something else that makes me special.” So I’m going to vote not the Horcrux.

Andrew: I think Micah’s Horcrux is making him think it’s a Horcrux.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: You think dark.

Eric: It’s always a worthwhile question to ask, especially in this book.

Laura: Oh, yeah. We should always ask.

Eric: I do feel for Harry, though. I mean, he’s spent all year so far feeling so maligned because nothing short of the Minister for Magic is calling him a liar, and he’s still having to contend with that. In fact, at one point, he says to Hermione, “Oh, I understand now why everyone’s here. They want to hear me talk about this situation.” He feels like he didn’t earn it.

Andrew: Yeah, and in the case of leading Dumbledore’s Army, this is something that’s in Harry’s control. Eric, you were just talking about the Ministry coming for him, the Prophet coming for him, coming for Dumbledore. Here’s something he can take into his own hands, seize the opportunity, and right the ship. Set the record straight.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: In these uncertain times, this is something that he can actually take on, and maybe it’ll be a good distraction, too, and it’s his way of clapping back and responding to the Ministry and Umbridge and the Prophet. And I think it was really cool to see Harry feel inspired to teach this class when he started subconsciously thinking of these lessons. I think we should all be so lucky as to have these moments in our lives where we get these ideas in our head and we get so excited about them, we just can’t stop thinking about them.

Micah: Totally. And one of the things that is really great about the group that shows up is that it isn’t just Gryffindors – it’s Hufflepuffs, it’s Ravenclaws – and he almost gets pumped up by the conversation that starts happening. They’re really building him up, talking about all the things that he has been able to achieve over the course of these last couple of years, and in many cases, it’s coming from some of the most unlikely of individuals, right? Susan Bones – who expected her to be somebody who throws out the fact that Harry can produce a full corporeal Patronus?

Eric: He doesn’t even know her!

Micah: Right.

Eric: Some stranger is like, “Hey, he can do this really cool thing.”

Andrew: We’re seeing… and this is a good example of inter-House unity. We’ve been hoping to see this. We were talking about this a few weeks ago.

Micah: Totally. And for the Hufflepuffs, there are questions about Cedric, and I think that that’s only natural that his Housemates would want to know what happened to him. And I can understand Harry maybe getting a little angry with that, but these are people who clearly believe Harry on some level – otherwise they wouldn’t be here – and they want to learn from him. They want to be able to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Eric: They see the need.

Laura: Yeah, and also – I agree, Micah – their curiosity is natural. They spent the entire summer being fed this BS narrative that Dumbledore is losing his mind and that Harry is crazy and making everything up. And it’s very clear from Harry’s demeanor at school that he’s calling BS on all of that, so they’re coming to him and saying, “Okay, well, can we hear your side, then? Because we’ve only heard their side.” Now, that doesn’t mean it’s Harry’s job to give that to them, but I also don’t think it’s a sin for them to be curious, for them to want to know, “Okay, well, then what happened?”

Andrew: No. Harry should have started a podcast.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “My story: Episode 1.”

Laura: That’s the answer to everything.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Between this and the Rita Skeeter tell-all interview that Harry eventually gives… that’s his true clapback; that’s his true… and Hermione also completely arranges that. I mean, Hermione is the GOAT, really.

Laura: Oh, listen, these two would have been dead halfway through the first year if it weren’t for her; I think that is well established. And another thought I had is Harry wants to be mad at Hermione in this moment, because he’s like, “Why didn’t she anticipate that this would be the reason for people to come do this?” And I get it, I understand the feeling, but I think she actually kind of did him a favor by breaking the dam with some of his peers outside of school, with a smallish group of peers, rather than continuing to allow the pressure to mount between Harry and the entire school. At least now he has a network of people outside of Ron and Hermione who he can confide in, relate to, spend time with.

Eric: She did her job. She just had to get them in the door.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Get them to see maybe what’s going on, and then the event unfolded naturally because they do have a common enemy; they have a common purpose. And even though he’s very against the idea at this juncture of telling them more about Cedric or reliving his trauma, he ultimately sees that communicating with them about what he can offer is how to break through this bubble that they’re all in.

Micah: Yeah, I think that we could ask the question whether or not Hermione could have prepared Harry more for this moment. I don’t really think it’s her responsibility to do that, and I don’t think she could have anticipated all of the different questions or topics of conversation. She could have guessed probably that Cedric would come up. But a lot of the other things that are talked about, they need to hear from Harry. In order for Harry to be validated, in their mind, he needs to sell them. “Why should we join Dumbledore’s Army?” Now, there’s clearly a desire on their part, otherwise they wouldn’t be there, but I still think part of it is Harry needs to close the deal.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It just takes Harry a minute to realize that, I think. Once he does, it all works out.

Micah: And Laura, you don’t think that Hermione was maybe even prepared fully for this moment.

Laura: No, I really don’t think she was. Even referring back to what I said before about Hermione is kind of out of her element here with what she’s doing; she’s never broken the rules in this way before. And actually, I want to give a shout-out to Michelle in our Discord, who said, “She’s just a rookie rule-breaker, and it’s her first time. She still got it done.” And I have to agree.

Eric: There’s a limit to how much preparedness you’re going to have ever. But also, I do feel the need to point out she’s not breaking the rules. She checked; this strictly isn’t illegal. It’s not!

Laura: Yeah, she’s not technically breaking the rules…

Eric: Again, she checked.

Laura: I know, but she also is capable of reading between the lines and understanding what new rules will get put in place if they are caught doing what they’re doing.

Eric: Can you imagine if earlier in the series a couple of students from all the Houses put together a study group for Potions to improve over Snape’s teaching of the subject? Like, “Hey, guys. This teacher is no good. Let’s get good at Potions in spite of him.” What kind of effect that might have had were Snape to find out, because this is the same thing with Umbridge that they’re doing. It’s like, “Let’s help each other to all be better in this subject that we can’t get the education through normal means.”

Micah: But at least with Snape, there’s been a level of consistency, whereas with Defense Against the Dark Arts, this is the first time where they’re being told, “No, you need to follow the textbook,” versus doing something that is a little bit more hands-on, right? That’s just my thought on it. And I think this is a great moment for Harry, because he’s really channeling so much of what he learned from Lupin in his third year. Because if you think about what he likely learned in the first two years of Defense Against the Dark Arts, it wasn’t a whole lot of anything. He really learned what he learned from Lupin, and maybe some from Bad-Eye Fakey in his fourth year. But it’s great to see him in this moment. Now, putting pen to paper is a whole different ball game, so I wanted to ask the group, what would it have taken us to sign up for Dumbledore’s Army? Now, I understand this is the ’90s. You sign up for clubs on a piece of paper.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But you just think about – we were talking earlier – who’s lurking around? If somebody is to get hold of that piece of paper, everybody who’s on it is going to be in deep doo-doo.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s the handwritten sign-up list that would be scaring me off, and I understand what a couple of the people at the meeting were hesitant about. And as we do learn later, Hermione – as bright as she is – kind of street smart, actually, in this sense, in this example. She does have a plan for this list and how it could punish any tattletales. That part is way too risky for me; it’s not so much the Hog’s Head. But I’m also wondering if, after the scene when Hermione goes to shop for a new quill, that this is some sort of hint or foreshadowing that she had done something special with the quill and parchment.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Because it just seems so random for her to shop for a new quill right after this meeting.

Eric: I really love that catch.

Andrew: What would it have taken you guys to be convinced?

Eric: I did sign up for chain letters and all sorts of… I was just… I mean, my inbox, if you saw the number I’m staring at right now, it’s just absolutely insane.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I can’t really get a handle on all the things I’ve willingly signed up for, so I haven’t learned anything from spam and phishing in the 21st century. So does that answer your question?

Andrew: I guess so.

Micah: You were all in, basically.

Eric: I’m all in.

Andrew: “A newsletter? Sign me up.”

Eric: “You want to get me 10% off?”

Andrew: “Put me in, coach. I’m ready to read.” [laughs]

Micah: How about you, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, if I were to put myself in the shoes of being a student at this table, yeah, I totally would have signed. Especially at that point in my life, I was going to protests; I was very, very engaged.

Eric: Aw, heck yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Rebel.

Laura: Yeah, I did not care about people knowing about the things that I believed in. But I will say, there are probably some better ways that this could have been anonymized and still had the same effect. Could people have used their initials? Could people have left a mark, like a fingerprint? Dip their finger in some ink and leave a fingerprint, and could it have had the same effect?

Eric: That seems even more scary, though.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: If you have to… something’s going to take a sample of your essence, rather than just quill and parchment. Quill and parchment, at least, is unassuming.

Micah: You could have used the essence of Murtlap. Or milk of…? Whatever you talked about on the last episode.

Andrew: No, not again!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m wondering… it would have been cool if the quill could anonymize the names as they were written down, and then maybe Hermione, being the owner of the quill, is the only person who can actually see the real names. Something like that.

Eric: I like that.

Andrew: Something Marauder’s Map-esque, where it’s hidden away from prying eyes. That would have been cool. This reminds me, back in fourth or fifth grade I actually made a signup form for my classmates to sign, in which we all agreed that this other kid in my class, Anthony Worrell, was a little bully, and he’s got to stop that!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It was like a petition, like, “Anthony is a bully; somebody put an end to this.” [laughs] I think I presented it to the teacher or something. I still have this; my mom saved it. My parents got a kick out of it.

Laura: [laughs] Oh no.

Andrew: But that was my Dumbledore’s Army signup form. That was my act of rebellion. [laughs]

Eric: It’s effective. And I think that we’re more likely to sign something if it’s our peers, in between our peers. The thing is, it does benefit them, having a list, even if it’s not magically binding – which it is – but because there are people they don’t know there. Harry doesn’t even know the Gryffindors that showed up here, and Cho brought her friend, who doesn’t have a name at this point. There are a number of people that, in order to get in touch with them again, the same way they were gotten in touch with the first time won’t work. People overheard other people, etc., etc. So having their names, really, ultimately is the only way to keep track of who was here and who’s going to be expecting an update.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Well, one person who will have no qualms about signing that piece of paper is Luna.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Before we wrap up the discussion here on the chapter and get to some odds and ends, I did want to just talk about Luna versus Hermione, because she really has no qualms at all about speaking her mind and standing up to Hermione. I think Hermione doesn’t realize it, of course, now in this moment, but so much of what she focuses on is the book smarts, and unless it’s right in front of her and she can see it and she can prove it… Luna, on the other hand, she has a bit more imagination, and I like how Luna is willing to challenge Hermione in this moment.

Laura: Yeah, do we agree with Luna?

Eric: That Heliopaths exist?

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean, yes, but secondarily, do we agree with her assessment of Hermione?

Andrew: Well, I agree with Micah; it is refreshing to see somebody push back against Hermione, even if the information is not true. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: But everybody always just believes everything Hermione says for the most part, and here’s somebody who’s just staunchly disagreeing with her. It’s like, “Oh, this is good. Fight!” What was your question, Laura? Sorry.

Laura: I was just asking do we agree with Luna? Do we think this is a valid criticism of Hermione?

Eric: I think specifically she says, “What, you won’t believe anything unless it’s shoved right under your nose?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, I think that’s probably pretty fairly accurate.

Andrew: Yeah, if you think about how often she is reading, anything under her nose is going to be a book, I think is the implication from Luna. So unless she reads it in a book, she ain’t buying it, Luna thinks.

Eric: And it’s one of Hermione’s greatest strengths, because she’s one of the most well-read characters we have, and so you do need that from time to time.

Laura: Yeah. It is just funny to see Hermione and Luna find themselves in the same orbit, because they have this one shared belief that the Ministry is corrupt and that Voldemort is back, but they agree on absolutely nothing else. [laughs]

Eric: It’s all it takes. That is your common ground right there, saving the world.

Laura: Totally.

Micah: Well, and the truth is likely somewhere in the middle between those two. But just a proud Ravenclaw moment for me there with Luna.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And I think that takes us to the end of this chapter. I know there’s a little bit of romance conversation in who’s dating who and who’s interested or not interested in who anymore.


Odds & Ends


Micah: But a few odds and ends to this chapter: We mentioned earlier there’s some eavesdropping going on in the Hog’s Head, as is usually the case there, right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, Mundungus is there. But I also was just thinking… we’ve kind of talked about this already, so I won’t repeat what I was thinking earlier in terms of who might be there, but it’s kind of too bad that Sirius actually wasn’t in Hogsmeade with them this time like he wanted to be, because he may have been able to sniff out Mundungus or any other suspicious lurkers at the Hog’s Head.

Eric: Ahh, yeah.

Andrew: And I wanted to call that out, because Sirius does come up in this chapter. Harry thinks about how Sirius wanted to come with them to Hogsmeade. He could have been helpful here.

Eric: Yeah, so I think just for the record, and to state it, Mundungus Fletcher is here. He’s the hag that’s mentioned, the tall hag that Harry thought could have been Umbridge, but that’s not how Umbridge finds out about this meeting. Umbridge finds out from Willy Widdershins; you remember him? The exploding toilets guy? And he wants to reduce his sentence, and in order to do that, he trades the information – pretty quickly, actually – with Umbridge, because at the beginning of the next chapter, she knows. So yeah, Willy Widdershins. Sorry, Willy. You’re why we can’t have nice things.

Laura: Does she actually reduce his sentence? Does she actually follow through on it?

Eric: Probably not.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, maybe. Actually, I think they read in the Prophet later that he was.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: I also wanted to follow up on Harry’s scars. In this chapter, Harry doubts whether the words that are “etched on the back of his hand would ever fade entirely.” That’s a quote. And I wanted to call this out because, as we discussed a couple weeks ago on the show, if you go see Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, you actually still see the scars on the back of Harry’s hand! That’s really impressive.

Eric: You’ve got to look for this, Laura, when you see it in Atlanta.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: See his hand scars.

Andrew: Now we’ve got to buy Laura a front row seat so she can see it.

Laura: I know. You’ve got to get me a VIP seat.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: She just yells, “I see them! I see them!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Everybody else in the theater is like, “What? See what?”

Micah: “Who’s the perv with the binoculars?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: In the front row. And then finally, just wanted to note that while the trio is walking around Hogsmeade, they see Fred and George and Lee Jordan hanging outside of Zonko’s Joke Shop. And this just made me wonder if they were doing some early research for Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes, or if this was some sort of foreshadowing, because it’s interesting it’s noted that they’re in front of Zonko’s, of all places. And sure, they like Zonko’s, but given what happens later, I wonder if it’s foreshadowing.

Micah: Yeah, and this made me think – when you said this, Andrew – about Hogwarts Legacy, and one of the Easter eggs outside of Zonko’s is that every once in a while if you go past, you’ll see two redheaded kids peering into the window.

Andrew: Oh, I didn’t know that. I’ll have to go look for that. That’s cool.

Eric: I also think Fred and George seen in the joke shop… they have this… I don’t know if it’s a Probity Probe, but they have something they threaten to stick Zacharias with. I find it really interesting that they’re using the Hogsmeade weekend for further R&D, and it’s clear that they probably are disassembling these items to see how they work, to figure out what makes them tick, and figure out how they’re going to improve upon them. It’s classic entrepreneurial behavior and inventor behavior. I like to see it, actually. I like to see any R&D Fred and George are doing that doesn’t involve tricking children into taking things that are going to affect them.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: All right, well, it’s now time for our version of MVP of the Week, and this has to do with our pen pal MVP. Thanks, Andrew, for the suggestion. Who would we be most likely to be pen pals with? Who would we really enjoy writing on the regular?

Andrew: I think Charlie Weasley would be fun to write to regularly. He’s in the broader wizarding world, and it’d just be interesting to hear what he has to say about dragons. That’s what I really want to talk to him about.

Eric: Is this because Hermione and Viktor are still pen pals this chapter? Is that where this came from?

Andrew: Yes, exactly. That’s the inspiration for the segment.

Eric: So I would say my choice for pen pal in the wizarding world would be Nicolas Flamel, because you’d have him for life; he’d be a lifelong pen pal. And he has a lot of personal experience that he could relate.

Andrew: Could learn a lot from him.

Laura: Until, what, 1995? [laughs]

Eric: I guess, technically, yeah. I mean, maybe if you’re going to Hogwarts in the ’80s, it would feel like it would be fun.

Laura: Okay. Yeah, there you go. There you go.

Micah: I decided to go with Dobby; I feel like he would be fun to write back and forth with high energy. You can rely on the fact that he would actually respond to you.

Eric: Aww.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: He has all the tea on what’s going on inside of Hogwarts, and he can go anywhere. That’s the best thing.

Andrew: That’s a good one.

Laura: So this might surprise some of you, but I said Dumbledore.

Andrew: Ooh!

Laura: I actually think he would be an amazing pen pal.

Micah: Which Dumbledore?

Laura: Albus.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I feel like he would write really long, literary, beautiful letters full of quirky anecdotes and funny stories about his journey and his observations on life. I think it would be delightful.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Yes, yes. It’s true, Laura, we’d be pen pal besties.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I really agree with that. The written form of Dumbledore is ingenious and is that very engaging personality that you would want to hear from.

Micah: For sure. Well, I thought it was only appropriate that with us spending time inside the Hog’s Head, that I stepped behind the bar and brew all of you up a few drinks.

Eric: Whoa!

Andrew and Laura: Oooh.

Laura: Okay.

Micah: And it’s up to you whether or not you want to keep it or do you want to pass it on to somebody else here on the panel.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, okay. I hope mine has Emma Watson’s gin in it. Let’s see.

Micah: Well, Andrew, yours is called Thestral Tonic, and it is a mysterious dark gin with a smokey twist.

Andrew: Ooh. You know what? I’m glad you mentioned smokey, because I’ve been getting into Mezcal recently, so I think this sounds right up my alley. I’m keeping this. Thank you, Micah.

Micah: No problem.

Andrew: This looks so expensive. This is so nice of you.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Now, you could choose to make it with Emma Watson’s gin, if you so choose. As long as you bring me the bottle, I’ll use it when I make your drink.

Andrew: Okay. I’m still looking for where to find that in America, so I’ll let you know when I do find it.

Micah: Eric, yours is Gryffindor’s Grog. Now, this is a bold spiced rum drink for the brave at heart.

Eric: Oho! We have such cold temperatures right now – I know a lot of the US does – that I could absolutely use some spiced rum, so I’m keeping it. Thank you.

Andrew: [laughs] I thought Santa was here for a second. Eric went, “Ohoho!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You know, it’s the Slughorn thing. “Oho!”

Andrew: Oh, okay. Got it.

Micah: And then for Laura, I have the Hog’s Breath.

Laura: All right.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Now, don’t be deterred by the name.

Laura: No, no, you can’t scare me. Go on.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: This is also a smokey drink. It’s a smoky whiskey with a fiery kick.

Laura: Ooh. Heck yeah, I’m keeping that.

Andrew: Yum.

Micah: All right. Well, that’s three for three. And then for myself, I went with the Crippled Cauldron. This is a fiery, bubbling mix of hot butterbeer with a splash of brandy.

Andrew: Ooh, okay. Awesome.

Laura: That sounds good.

Andrew: These are creative, Micah. I think we’ve got to have you over for a party and watch you whip these up for us.

Micah: All right, let’s do it.


Lynx Line


Micah: And to officially wrap up this chapter, we do have a question that we threw out on our Lynx Line, and the Lynx Line, for the folks who don’t know, is for MuggleCast listeners who are members of our Patreon, specifically the Slug Club tier. And the question this week was: With all the disguises going on at the Hog’s Head, if you had to disguise yourself as someone inside of the Hog’s Head, what would you dress up as?

Andrew: Fer said,

“How important is this eavesdropping I’m doing? If this is an all-in situation, I’m learning how to become an Animagus and turning myself into a cockroach… considering the filth in that place, I’ll fit right in.”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, definitely. For sure. Emily says,

“If the purpose is to eavesdrop, I think I’d take a page out of Slughorn’s book and turn myself into furniture. Of course, there is the issue of someone potentially sitting on you, so I don’t think I’d go for a chair or a bar stool, so maybe a dusty table in the corner that no one would want to sit on.”

Andrew: Ohoho! I love that answer.

Micah: Jen had a similar thought.

“I’d transfer myself into a Micah Chair à la Slughorn in Half-Blood Prince. I’d make myself a particularly uncomfortable chair so nobody would want to sit on me, and position myself in a dark corner within earshot of whomever I’m spying on.”

Andrew: For listeners who don’t know, the Micah Chair is a joke that was born out of another podcast we do, Millennial. We had one time observed that Micah loves going to that chair in the hotel room that nobody sits on. He loves that chair. So we started calling it the Micah Chair, because only Micah sits in it, as far as I know. So that’s where that came from.

Eric: I think people underestimate how important having any furniture anywhere in a public space is going to get sat on, no matter how uncomfortable it is.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No matter what. If you get enough people in a place, they’re going to want to sit or lean on anything.

Andrew: Yes, but those Micah Chairs are dirtier than the Hog’s Head floor. Those things do not get cleaned.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: They’re probably dirtier than the bed.

Andrew: Well, yeah, because the bed sheets, at least those get washed. They’re not throwing the chair through the wash. Bleck.

Eric: I don’t know; I treat my Micah Chairs pretty well when I stay in them.

Micah: Thank you.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, so do I, because I don’t touch them. Eric brings Febreze into hotel rooms and sprays it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Febreze fabric scent. I actually reupholster chairs while I’m staying in hotel rooms.

Andrew: It’s very nice of you.

Laura: Might be a business in that. Darin says,

“I would dress up as Aberforth, using Polyjuice Potion. Since he has been there forever and doesn’t get much notice, I think he would be the easiest to infiltrate a secret meeting at the Hog’s Head, since it’s his pub.”

Andrew: Jennifer said,

“I would infiltrate the Hog’s Head itself and get a job there. That way it wouldn’t be strange for me to be there all the time. I could gather intel easily by walking around the pub, hiding in plain sight!”

Good one.

Eric: Love that. I bet Aberforth would probably hire somebody if they just walked up and said, “Need some help?” Because he clearly does. Rachel added,

“I’d go fully undercover as a resident of Hogsmeade who frequents the Hog’s Head, so it wouldn’t be unusual for me to be there. I’d pretend to do a crossword, but I’d really be recording notes.”

Ooh, I love the idea that whatever notes you’re taking, you’d have to fit into the little boxes of the crossword.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Megan says,

“I always enjoyed the Christmas tree the trio moved in front of them in the Three Broomsticks. I like the idea of becoming a potted plant for elite spying abilities.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Love that.

Laura: Julianne says, “I would dress as a goat and get cozy with Aberforth.”

Micah: As you do.

Laura: Julianne!

Andrew: All right…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We didn’t really discuss that aspect of this chapter. That’s After Dark/bonus MuggleCast.

Eric: Yeah, it’s not really this chapter anyway. It’s not like in the movie where they enter and there’s a goat and he chases it off. That’s not at all.

Andrew: Jenny said,

“I would dress as a woman out for a day of shopping in Hogsmeade. I would have a bunch of bags, and everyone would just think I stopped in for refreshments. It would have the added bonus of being able to have a recording device or Quick Quotes Quill in one of the bags to record whatever it is I’m eavesdropping on.”

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: Yes, good.

Eric: Clever. And Eleanor says,

“Is this a one-off? Or a longer term situation? If it’s one-off, I’m going for a visitor to Hogsmeade. I’m going to be a bit dodgy – Mundungus Fletcher vibes. I’ll transfigure my face and act shifty. No one will suspect why I’m really there; they’ll all think I’m selling dodgy goods. If this is going to be a repeat, then I think I’m going to get a job as a bartender. I’ll use a spell on Aberforth to make him think he’s hired me. He’s paying me peanuts, but giving me room and board; he thinks it’s a good deal for him. This one will be trickier. I need a cover story that I can keep up with, so it’ll have to have some basis in fact. I’m probably from some distance away, and had been homeschooled instead of Hogwarts. A family that keeps themselves to themselves, but I’ve always wanted to know more about wizarding life, so I’ve come to Hogsmeade to experience it.”

Eric: Man, Eleanor did all the research. All the planning.

Micah: Yeah, a lot of great answers. Very creative.

Andrew: Yeah. Listeners, we love this segment, and yeah, like Micah said, seeing all the creativity out of everybody. And patrons get to participate in this benefit every week at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. It’s one of many benefits on the Patreon, so please do check it out. If you have any other feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and next week, we’ll discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Educational Decree Number 24.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch Question: In the US of A, the College Board administers the SAT, which has a possible perfect score of 1600. What is the lowest score possible to receive on the SAT? This is if you fill out your name and nothing else. You can get a 400. That is the correct answer; 400 is the lowest score on the SAT. 60% of people who submitted the correct answer said they didn’t look it up, so that’s pretty smart. I bet they all scored more than a 400, and I hope they’re not speaking from personal experience.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But this week’s winners are as follows: Buff Daddy; Christa; Ethan the Ravenclaw from Dublin who wants to know what happens to Grawp for a year; LadyHermioneLookalike; Shadow the Hedgehog; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; The number of people that are on crutches at my school is bad, it’s four currently, and all of them have knee injuries, guys, my school is falling apart; and Tofu Tom.

Andrew: Uh… sir or madam, we are not the right person to contact about your school falling apart, so please reach out to your school administrators.

Micah: Reach out to Dumbledore. He knows a thing or two about schools falling apart.

Laura: But I hope you’re okay.

Eric: Yeah. Next week’s Quizzitch question: In the mid 20th century United Kingdom, pint glasses replaced what type of drinking vessel commonly made of glass, ceramic, or pewter? So it’s a little bit of a UK pub question. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the MuggleCast website, maybe checking out transcripts or our wall of fame/must listens pages, just click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: [laughs] Micah is totally cheating right now.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: What is he…?!

Andrew: I just watched him copy the question. He probably pasted it into Google. He’s getting the answer.

Eric: You’re asking Grok right now.

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: But I’m allowed to say whether or not I looked it up. Am I not, Eric?

Eric: Yes, that’s… yeah, you’re right. People can cheat miserably by just saying that they did.

Andrew: Check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam and Micah reviewed the final season of Cobra Kai, and then over on Millennial, we’re discussing the rise in concert ticket prices and why some Americans are heading overseas to see their favorites this summer. These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 20 years, and there are several great ways to help us out. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear, like the MuggleCast cap I am wearing tonight; I think it’s on the site as MuggleCap. Apple Podcasts subscribers can join MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early releases of the show, plus two bonus episodes every month. And for those benefits and more, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and in addition to what I just shared, you’ll get livestreams, Lynx Line access, physical gifts, a personal video message from one of the four of us, access to our Facebook and Discord communities, and lots more. So thank you, everybody who supports us. Again, we could not do this without you. And as for other ways to help us out, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please owl a friend about the show and cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Lastly, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive our favorite episodes and lots more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Cheers. Próst! I’m Andrew.

Eric: Próst! I’m Eric.

[pause]

Laura: Micah, you’re on mute.

Micah: I’m Micah.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Micah already started drinking.

Andrew: He held up the glass and forgot to say, “And I’m Micah.”

Micah: No, I did say it. I was on mute.

Laura: You were on mute.

Andrew: Ohh.

Laura: And I’m Laura. [laughs]

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Micah: Bye.