Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #673, Listeners Share ‘Goblet of Fire’ Theories, ‘Cursed Child’ Star Joel Meyers Speaks With Us!
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And this week, we’re busting open the Muggle Mailbag to answer your lingering questions about Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Also in today’s episode, Micah and I actually sat down with Joel Meyers, who is currently starring as Albus Severus Potter in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child on Broadway, so we’ll get to that interview in just a minute. But first, I just wanted to let everybody know what is coming up on MuggleCast in the next couple weeks, because I, for one, am very excited to kick off Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter, but before we get to Chapter by Chapter for Order of the Phoenix, next week we’re going to be doing an Order of the Phoenix movie commentary track. So you’ll be able to watch the movie along with us; you’re going to need to bring your own copy of the movie, but your movie will be in sync with our commentary track, so stay tuned for that. We haven’t done Order of the Phoenix before, so it’ll be fun to finally do that commentary track. Then the following week, Chapter by Chapter for Order of the Phoenix will begin, and as we’ve mentioned numerous times now, and as was well-documented on last week’s episode, the four of us were together a couple weeks ago now, and we brainstormed new ideas for Chapter by Chapter, and we’ll be debuting those in the Order of the Phoenix series, and we came up with some ideas we’re really excited about. I think we’ll share them with patrons first, and then we’ll introduce them as we go along in Chapter by Chapter for everybody else. And speaking of Patreon, coming up at bonus MuggleCast later this week, we will offer our thoughts on the just released Quidditch Champions video game. Any of you play it yet besides me?
Laura: Yep.
Eric: Absolutely.
Andrew: Sweet! Otherwise, the way I teed that up would have been terrible.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Would have been really awkward.
Andrew: “Our thoughts,” meaning mine.
Micah: You’ll just get me all excited about playing it this weekend.
Andrew: You know what? I’m pleasantly surprised by the game. It’s exceeding my expectations.
Eric: Yeah, and did you guys have to pay for it? Because it was actually on my console when I signed in the other day.
Laura: Yeah, it’s free on PlayStation for 30 days if you have PS+, I think.
Micah: Oooh.
Andrew: That’s it, yeah, if you have PS+. So we’ll talk about our thoughts on the game; get into the nitty gritty in bonus MuggleCast. There is also pretty exciting news about a Hogwarts Legacy sequel, so we’ll talk about that. And it was just Back to Hogwarts Day a few days ago. Happy new term at Hogwarts, everybody. And Warner Bros. uses this anniversary, this special holiday – whatever you want to call it – to announce several news items each year, and this year was no different, so we’ll talk about the announcements that they shared. So lots coming up in this week’s episode of bonus MuggleCast. Pledge now at Patreon.com/MuggleCast to receive access to dozens of bonus MuggleCast installments, including the new one that we’re going to be recording, or if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, sign up for MuggleCast Gold, and both of these subscriptions get you ad-free MuggleCast as well. Micah, you’ve had a pretty busy week. You were just over in Scotland.
Micah: I was, yeah, I had a great trip overseas, and I can probably talk a little bit about it another time; go into a little bit more detail about all the Harry Potter things that I got up to. But I did just want to give a special thank you to the Department of Magic for their hospitality. They are a bar in Edinburgh that do Harry Potter-themed potion cocktails, and if anyone is interested in visiting while in Edinburgh, our listeners can use code “MuggleCast24” when checking out for 10% off anything they offer. I know this is a destination that we heard from a couple of listeners, and I think that’s actually how I initially found out about it. It is very cool. I got the Dragon’s Inferno potion that I think I brewed successfully, because the drink was very good, and then I had a shot of Raven’s Eye. And we put some of this content up on the MuggleCast Instagram, so our listeners can check it out. And they were very nice; they also gave me a wand, which was very cool.
Andrew: Oh! Like, to keep?
Micah: To keep, yeah.
Andrew: Oh, okay. Cool. I thought maybe just to stir your drink or something.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: They went above and beyond, so thanks to them.
Andrew: Very cool. Yeah, all right. Well, you just mentioned our Instagram, and I also wanted to mention that we’re actually very close to 10,000 followers on our Instagram, and once we hit that threshold, it’ll actually open up new opportunities for us on that social media app. So if you don’t follow us on our Instagram already – Instagram.com/MuggleCast, or just search for MuggleCast on Instagram – please give us a follow. We share show clips, what we’re up to when we’re doing fandom things around the world, as evidenced by Micah heading over to Scotland and doing some coverage there for us. And also – Micah, maybe you can help me with this a little bit – thanks to Slug Club member Miranda for covering Back to Hogwarts in New York City. You weren’t able to attend because you were overseas, so you asked Miranda to go, right?
Micah: Yeah, asked Miranda to go. They did a special Back to Hogwarts celebration at Grand Central Terminal here in New York. So it’s always been something I know that’s been done at King’s Cross in London, but they finally decided to bring it stateside, and they did it in New York. I think there were a couple of other cities that they synced up with as well. But Miranda went and covered it for us. I saw Kierra Lewis did the countdown, along with Bonnie Wright…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … and that was also posted, as you mentioned, on our social feeds, so it looked like it was a lot of fun.
Andrew: Yeah, it did. And good for Kierra for getting that event; that is very cool. So yeah, thank you again, Miranda, and check out MuggleCast on Instagram to see our coverage of that event. Well, speaking of New York… everything’s just tying together really nicely this week. [laughs]
Micah: Oh, it’s like I planned it that way.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Well, I rearranged a couple of these items.
Micah: No, I know you did, I know you did.
Andrew: [laughs] Speaking of New York, Joel Meyers stars as Albus Severus Potter in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child on Broadway. Here is our interview now with him.
Interview with Joel Meyers
Andrew: Hi, Joel. Welcome to MuggleCast.
Joel Meyers: Thanks for having me.
Andrew: You’re about a year and a half into playing Albus Severus, right?
Joel: Yeah, I’m a little… that and a bit, yeah. Getting close to two.
Andrew: Awesome. Were you a Harry Potter fan prior to auditioning for Cursed Child?
Joel: Absolutely I was. I mean, I grew up right in the pipeline of all the movies coming out and the tail end of the books coming out, so I definitely lived it as a kid and a lifelong fan. And it was the easiest acting homework I ever did to reread the series when I got cast.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Well, one of the things we like to do on MuggleCast is get guests’ fandom ID, so would love to know, then, your favorite book, your favorite movie, and your favorite character.
Joel: Okay. I think my favorite book – and this is mostly due to nostalgia because it’s the one that I actually remember coming out the most – was Deathly Hallows.
Andrew: Okay.
Joel: And I don’t know, it’s always my… even when I reread it, I was keeping an open mind and I was like, “Maybe this will change,” but I enjoy it start to finish. My favorite movie… I really like Order of the Phoenix.
Andrew: Oh, interesting.
Joel: I know Prisoner of Azkaban is like… it’s the Empire Strikes Back.
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: It’s the… you’re supposed to say that one. And I do love Prisoner of Azkaban, but I do also… just something about the whole style of Order of the Phoenix always gets me.
Andrew: Yeah. You know what? It is okay to not say Prisoner of Azkaban, I think.
[Joel laughs]
Andrew: It’s so different, especially compared to the first two. I think that’s why a lot of people call that movie their favorite.
Joel: Sure.
Andrew: It’s not my favorite movie. You’re in a safe space here to admit that. [laughs]
Joel: Well, okay, that’s good. Because I’m a big Star Wars fan, too, and when I say Revenge of the Sith is my favorite, I get laughed out of the fandom.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Joel: You’ve got to be careful. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Joel: Favorite character, Hermione, always and forever. Can’t beat Hermione.
Andrew: Very cool. Yeah, okay. And then, what is your Hogwarts House?
Joel: You can’t really see it, but I’m wearing my Ravenclaw shirt from Cursed Child.
Micah: Nice.
Joel: I’m a proud Ravenclaw.
Micah: Likewise.
Joel: I lean Gryffindor sometimes on the quiz, but most of the time I’m a Ravenclaw.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Micah: Actually, going back to your favorite book, I was going to ask, is it Deathly Hallows because Albus Severus makes an appearance at the very end?
Joel: Well, that’s convenient, isn’t it?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Joel: And I do… that has come to be important to me in the time since I joined the show. [laughs] It’s nice to get to do the last scene of Deathly Hallows at the start every night.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s amazing.
Micah: So what was it like to get a starring role in one of the biggest fandoms of our lifetimes? Do you still remember getting that call?
Joel: Totally. I mean, it was a long audition process. These shows, they take their time, and I think I went in for six rounds of auditions for it, and then I… the story goes is we had our final callbacks on a Monday, and I actually flew home to Seattle after that because I’d been meaning to go back, go back, go back. And it was about this time two years ago that this was all going down, and I flew home; a day went by. You always have this fantasy of, you get off the plane and there’ll be a call waiting for and you’ll go, “Yes, I accept.”
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: That was not the case. I got off the plane and there was nothing, and I was like, “Oh, okay.” Another day went by; I was like, “Ugh.” There’s a grieving process to these things every time. And then I happened to wake up early West Coast time on Thursday because I had a dentist appointment at 8:00 a.m., and I am sort of half asleep, walking out, and there’s a missed call on my phone, and I’m looking at it and it’s a number I don’t know, and we all get so many spam calls that I’m like, “It’s just a spam number.”
Andrew: Right.
Joel: And then it has… you know the iPhones now sometimes have the “Maybe: So-and-so”? And it was “Maybe: The casting director.”
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: I was like, “Oh, maybe I should call him back.” So I called him back, and he’s like, “Yeah, we want you to play Albus Potter, congrats.” And my mom was going for a run or something, and I ran outside; I was like, “Stop, Mom, wait! I’m going to Broadway.”
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Joel: And then I went to the dentist.
Andrew: I was going to ask if you still went to the dentist. [laughs]
Joel: Of course, and let me tell you: It is the best place to be when you’ve just received life-changing information, because there’s nothing you can do but sit there and process it. And my hygienist that day was not chatty at all.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Joel: She was there to get the job done, and so there was no… I don’t think I even told her. I mean, I couldn’t really… everyone’s probably like, [mumbles]. But yeah, it was one of the more surreal experiences of my life to be sitting in a dentist chair, staring up the light, being like, “Did that just…? Is this real? Is this the laughing gas? What’s going on here?”
Micah: I love the through line because Hermione’s parents are dentists.
Joel: Correct.
Micah: She’s your favorite character.
Joel: Absolutely.
Micah: There’s something there.
Andrew: [laughs] It was meant to be.
Joel: And no, I do not want to be a dentist. [laughs]
Andrew: Okay.
Joel: Dentistry is not my…
Andrew: I kind of thought this story was going to go like, you got to the dentist, you were in the chair, they were working on you, the phone call comes in, you’re like, “Stop! I must take this call!”
[Andrew and Joel laugh]
Joel: That’s probably the only version that could have been even better, but no.
Andrew: Yeah, still a great story. So Micah and I have both seen Cursed Child a couple times at this point. The show has tons of incredible effects and performances, and you obviously play a key role. What is it like performing at that level every day?
Joel: It’s crazy. I mean, to put it bluntly, it’s… on the one hand, it’s such a machine of a show. It all has to… it starts and it does not stop, especially the one-part version now that’s on Broadway, everywhere except London, basically. I mean, it moves. [snaps fingers] The train leaves the station and it does not stop until we get to the very end.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.
Joel: And so there’s so many moving parts. And obviously, you’re acting and you’re in it, but you’re also like, “Well, if I stand over here, I’m going to get incinerated by a jet of flame or a Dementor is going to fall on me.”
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: And so it’s a lot of just coming in and learning how to fit yourself into that machine, but then also bring it to life every night, and that’s the constant balance of it. It’s such a challenge, and such a wonderful challenge, to get to be a part of. And plus, it’s great to have it be Harry Potter. Most people who are in the audience have at least some sense of who that is and what this is, and sometimes a lot more of a sense of what that is. And people have been with this world since they were kids, like we all have, and it’s so fun to get to share that with people every night, and just know that that means so much, that you are helping build this world for them to come back to every night in the theater. It’s an experience that kind of defies description in a way, and yeah, it’s such a great joy to be a part of.
Andrew: I saw on your Instagram that you keep track of the number of performances you’re in, or you’ve done. How many are you up to now?
Joel: [laughs] I think last night was 655, 654, or something like that.
Andrew: Wow.
Joel: Yeah, I’m set to… I’ve got about a hundred left, so I should get to about the 750 mark by the time I take my final bow as Albus.
Andrew: Wow. That’s just amazing. And it’s been the one-part show the whole way?
Joel: Yes. Yeah, it’s been the one-part show since the pandemic, and so I joined… each cast has a year, so we’re the year five cast now, and so I joined in the year four cast. And it was the year three cast that first did the one-part coming back from Covid.
Andrew: Okay. Yeah, and you started in November 2022, and you’re going to be running through November 2024.
Joel: Yep.
Micah: And mentioning other cast: When you took over the role, did you get any advice from other cast members? Maybe some folks who played Albus Severus previously?
Joel: Yeah, I met James, who played Albus right before me briefly, and they were like, “Bring snacks. Drink water.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “Stay hydrated.”
Joel: Which I think is the best… like, that’s what I would say.
Micah: So what is your favorite snack?
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: Cliff bars are great. I always have sliced apples at intermission; that’s kind of my thing. That’s great for your voice, it’s great hydration… just a good pick me up, 10 out of 10. I briefly met… [laughs] On the subway, of all places, I briefly met Sam Clemmett, who was the original Albus in both London and Broadway.
Andrew: Oh, wow.
Joel: And it was just… I was walking into the subway, and he was walking and I started to double take and was like, “Sam?” He was sort of like, “Who are you?”
[Andrew and Micah laughs]
Joel: And I was like, “Oh, I’m Albus,” and he was like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, I’ve seen your face.”
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: It was a two-second conversation, but he was like, “Are you enjoying it?” I was like, “Yeah!” And he’s like… and I was like, “It’s a lot. You set us up for a lot.” And he’s like, “Yeah, the guy who took over from me in London told me, he was like, ‘Yeah, why didn’t you say no to more of this stuff?'”
[Everyone laughs]
Joel: The Albus track is… it’s a lot of the… especially when they went from the two-part to the one-part, a lot of the answers and condensing the show was, “Oh, Albus will run across the stage and behind the stage and up the stair. It’ll be fine. We’ll cut time that way.”
Andrew: Interesting, okay. [laughs]
Joel: So it’s a workout start to finish, but yeah. [laughs]
Andrew: So do you have a favorite scene to perform?
Joel: It changes night by… I mean, my honest answer is it’s whichever scene the audience is into.
Andrew: Okay.
Joel: Because it’s funny, you would think that in a… I mean, the Lyric Theater on Broadway is 1,600 seats. You would think that that would average out the audience reaction. But it’s very different every night, and that’s… again, both the challenge of it, but also the joy of it is there are some scenes that they’re super into one night, and then they’re not the next night, but there are other scenes they are. And so it’s always a constant, “Oh, interesting. How does their energy feed us or inform how we do it?” And I think the scenes that I enjoy doing the most are when you can tell that the audience is right with you. I think some of the action, big adventure scenes are fun just because there’s all the special effects, and they look about as real from the stage as they do from the house, and that’s really cool too. I can’t say too… I don’t want to spoil too much, but…
Andrew: Yeah, fair enough. No, that does make sense, because sometimes I’ll go see a movie in theaters twice, and the audiences laugh at different points, and it’s like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Like, “Why didn’t that audience laugh at the scene that the other audience did?” So I get that.
Joel: Yeah. I mean, it’s so frustrating when there’s a joke line that you say and it falls flat, and you’re like, “What did we do wrong?”
Andrew: [laughs] And you’re ready for them to laugh and nothing comes.
Joel: And then there’s times when they’re laughing at things and you’re like, “That wasn’t even funny.”
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Joel: But apparently it was, okay. Great, let’s go. It’s such… that’s live theater. [laughs]
Micah: You mentioned avoiding fire and falling Dementors. Is there a scene that you’d say is most challenging that every night you go in and you’re like, “This one”?
Joel: Yeah, I mean, I think at this point I see the show in sections. There’s the opening section, which we call the montage, which is years one through up to the beginning of year four for Albus, and we kind of get the back… because most of the play happens in the fourth year for Albus and Scorpius, and we’ve got to get there. We start before year one, and so that sequence is quick. It’s fast. It has to move. And that’s also the one where it’s like, “Albus is running. Albus is running. Albus is running.”
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: And so when I get through that, I’m kind of like, [exhales] “Okay, now we’re in a play and we’re doing it.” And then, yeah, there’s a sequence in Act Two that is also quite physical, and I can’t say what it is for those who haven’t seen the show, but it is… you get through these milestones every night, and that’s how you do it, but it’s a lot of fun too.
Andrew: Yeah. So talking about the story, what are some of your big takeaways from the story? What are the messages you think viewers get out of it?
Joel: Yeah. I mean, there’s kind of two side by side stories in Cursed Child, right? There’s the Albus/Harry. I don’t think it’s much of a spoiler to say that Albus and Harry don’t always see eye to eye about everything. Albus very much is in his dad’s shadow; it’s hard to have your dad be the savior of the wizarding world, and all that that entails, when you are not particularly great at magic yourself. And then there’s, of course, the Albus/Scorpius, the unlikely friendship of the Malfoy and the Potter on the train, two Slytherins. And I think that both of those… when I came into the show, it’s a lot of, “Oh, it’s a show about family, of course. It’s a show about friendship.” I think to me the connection there is it’s also a show about how given family meets found family, which I think is very true of the books too, right? I mean, because Harry in the books, that’s sort of… Harry has to find… all he has is a found family, and it’s a lot of the absence of the given family for him. And I think that Cursed Child continues that theme really well in that it sort of gives Albus the conundrum of he does have Harry Potter, the given family and all the baggage that comes with, and he can find his own place in this wide magical world through Scorpius, through someone who no one expected him to be friends with, his dad is actively discouraging for a long time him to be friends with, but he sticks to his guns and says, “No, this is my person, and we can all come together if we sort out our various differences here.”
Andrew: Yes. Even a Potter and a Malfoy can become friends after all. [laughs]
Joel: Exactly, yeah. I mean, we know… I wanted to say, but the true redemption arc of Cursed Child is Draco, but we don’t have to get into that. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, fair enough.
Micah: So this builds off the previous question a little bit: One of the things we talk about a lot on this podcast is how the original Harry Potter books, their messages evolve for us as we get older, whether it’s about friendship or politics or power dynamics. We’re going through our global reread of the books for the second time right now, and we’re looking at it through the lens of being adults now as opposed to being kids. So now that you’re about two years into the show, have the messages or meanings changed for you at all?
Joel: I mean, I stand by that I think the main message to me is still that given versus found family for Albus. So as I’ve come to find over the course of doing 600 odd shows, I think for Albus, it’s really about trying to do the right thing. That’s what Albus and Harry have in common; they’re always trying to do the right thing, but not always in the right way. And I think that that’s a message that is one that I was aware of at the beginning, but I think also, every time we do the show, you do it so many times, you find those messages coming up in new places in the show that you didn’t even think of in the rehearsal room at times. And I think that that’s a great experience of doing it and being like, “Oh yeah, that is where that comes in, in this scene as well. Oh, and it’s also right here, and that’s also right here.” And I think that it’s just such a gift to be able to explore something to that depth every night over the course of two years and then have the interactions with the audience, because we go out to the stage door every night. We meet the kids in their Hogwarts robes, and it’s great, and they tell us their Houses and it’s so wonderful, but it’s also so great to see it through their eyes and see what they take away from it. And for Cursed Child especially, we get a lot of first time theater goers, a lot of first time Broadway goers, and it’s so great to see kids have their minds opened in that way, which is something that I remember being a kid feeling that, and now it’s so special to be on the other side of that as a semi-adult, and look and be like, “Oh yeah, I can see it happening from the other side.” And I think that is kind of the real gift and thing that I’ve come to learn and appreciate, as I’ve done the show for so long.
Andrew: That’s awesome, because Harry Potter has often been credited as inspiring a lot of kids to read who never would have been interested otherwise, and the point you’re bringing up is that it might now be inspiring a lot of kids to fall in love with theater, because they’re going in for their first time.
Joel: Totally, totally.
Andrew: That’s really cool.
Joel: Yeah, and I mean, the other things, too, is you see at the stage door… now we’re at the point where the first generation of Harry Potter fans are a generation, half-generation older than I am, and you see parents bringing their kids to the stage door where the parents read the books and now they… the parents always want to tell us, “Oh, my son/daughter/niece/nephew,” whatever it is, “now they’re reading. They’re on Prisoner of Azkaban. They’re reading the books now.” And so it’s really special to see that. We get to see this franchise being passed down generationally now, which is a new thing, having grown up, again, in that first wave of fans, to be like, “Oh, wow, this is something that’s actually continuing and is something that parents want to give to their children, their love of this world.”
Andrew: Yeah, to let their kids see that same joy that they were experiencing themselves when they first read the books.
Joel: Absolutely, and the theater is a… now that we don’t actively have as many movies coming out, the show is a great vehicle through which they can share that in real time together, which is so cool to see, yeah.
Andrew: So we had mentioned that your role as Albus is going to be wrapping up in November. Do you have any plans after? I assume running less is going to be one of those plans.
[Everyone laughs]
Joel: Yeah, well, running outdoors, perhaps. Eating dinner before 11:00 p.m. probably; my girlfriend has informed me that that’s what we’ll be doing.
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: So she’s excited for that, as am I. And beyond that, we’ll see. I mean, I’ve still got 100 shows or so to go, so I’m very much like, “Let’s get through it.” It’s a physical show; don’t want to get hurt or anything. And then it’s kind of out into the wide world of what is next. This may interest some of your fans, may not. I work on an immersive show, too, that’s over the phone. It’s kind of theater by phone.
Micah: Oh, cool.
Joel: It’s with a company called Candle House Collective. The show is called Lennox Mutual. You call in and you get a representative, and it’s kind of a one-on-one, 20 minutes at a time, but you can call back. And so that’s the next big thing on my docket is that show and continuing to grow that. It’s sort of in the vein of magical realism and whatnot, D&D. So D&D folks who are into Harry Potter might enjoy that.
Micah: We probably have a few of those. [laughs]
Andrew: I’m sure we have… yeah.
Joel: I would imagine you did. It seems to be a common type. [laughs]
Andrew: Well, Joel, thanks again for coming on today. Where can our listeners find you online? And anything else you want to plug?
Joel: I mean, come see Cursed Child. If you want to see me in it, you’ve got till November 10 on Broadway, or they’re just launching a national tour. It’s going to go to Chicago, LA, and… oh God, I think it’s DC. I really hope it’s not something else because I’ll have the social manager in my inbox. But you can check out the tour if it’s coming near. There’s the London production, the Hamburg production in Germany, which is in German, and then the Japanese production in Tokyo. It’s all over the place you can find us.
Andrew: Sorry, I just looked it up. You are right; it was DC. Chicago, LA, DC.
Joel: Thank God.
[Everyone laughs]
Joel: I did my job.
Micah: And I’ll have to check out New York before you wrap up in November.
Joel: Yeah, come on by. We have a lot of fun. Yeah, if you want to find me online, my Instagram is at @JoelPMeyers – two E’s, one S – and same, my website is also JoelPMeyers.com. I need to update it…
[Andrew laughs]
Joel: … but that’s where you can find anything I am doing in the future.
Andrew: Awesome. Well, Joel, it’s been great talking to you today. Thank you so much for your time.
Joel: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[Ad break]
Andrew: All right, that was a really good conversation, wasn’t it, Micah? We had a good time talking with him.
Micah: Yeah, he’s just a great person to talk with. Seems like he’s a very big Harry Potter fan, too, which I would assume goes a long way when you’re in this type of role.
Seven-Word Summary Revisit
Andrew: All right, so before we jump into the Muggle Mailbag, we wanted to revisit every one of our seven-word summaries from Goblet of Fire, and then we’re going to vote on one to redo. So here is our summary [laughs] of Goblet of Fire through our Chapter by Chapter seven-word summaries. Chapter 1: “Voldemort decides to plan an amazing murder.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Chapter 2: “Dumbledore sometimes is on the beach relaxing.”
Micah: Chapter 3: “Molly tries to save Harry’s summer funnily.”
Laura: Chapter 4: “Arthur attempts to help with Dudley’s tongue.”
Andrew: Chapter 5: “Harry visits the Burrow and eats satisfactorily.” [laughs]
Eric: Chapter 6: “The Quidditch world is excited regarding Voldemort.”
Micah: Chapter 7: “Arriving at the campsite makes much happen.”
Laura: Chapter 8: “Athletes compete vigorously against their formidable opponents.”
Eric: Ooh.
Andrew: Chapter 9: “Winky struggles to explain herself to Crouch.”
Eric: Chapter 10: “Arthur laments over a problematic news cycle.”
Micah: Chapter 11: “Traveling by train proves informative for Harry.”
Laura: Chapter 12: “Thunderstorms announce the arrival of Mad-Eye Fakey.”
Andrew: Chapter 13: “Karma comes full ferret for Draco Malfoy.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Chapter 14: “Neville reacts in a panic…” What happened there?
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Ran out of time, I guess.
Laura: We ran out of steam.
Micah: Chapter 15: “Foreigners arrive at the clean, squeaky school.”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Chapter 16: “Poliakoff wants eternal wine because Krum’s better.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Chapter 17: “Cedric fails to be the only champion.”
Eric: Chapter 18: “Rita hijacks Harry’s innocence by broom closet.”
Micah: Chapter 19: “Karkaroff sneaks around Hogwarts suspiciously one night.”
Laura: Chapter 20: “Dragons are afoot inside Hogwarts grounds AHHHHH!”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Good acting.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Chapter 21: “Shrieks and panic erupt from Gryffindor base.”
Eric: Chapter 22: “Cho regrets not saying yes to greatness.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Chapter 23: “Hormones fly amok at Hogwarts’s big holiday.”
Laura: Chapter 24: “Rita ignites rumors in the Three Broomsticks.”
Andrew: Chapter 25: “Mermaids sing to a bathroom of children.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Chapter 26: “The merpeople mock Harry incessantly under water.”
Micah: Chapter 27: “Crouch is not innocent of any crimes.”
Laura: Chapter 28: “Harry finds Crouch disturbed inside the forest.”
Andrew: Chapter 29: “Sirius grounds Harry because he is naughty.”
Eric: Chapter 30: “Dumbledore craftily leaves exposed memories inside basin.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Chapter 31: “Riddles guard the misleading way to victory.”
Laura: Chapter 32: “Cedric falls to his untimely, sad demise.”
Andrew: Chapter 33: “Loyalists arrive and worship Voldemort’s triumphant revival.”
Eric: Chapter 34: “Echoes confront the dark past and spells.”
Micah: Chapter 35: “Secrets are revealed by truth-telling serum.”
Laura: Chapter 36: “Fudge makes disastrous decisions about Lord Voldemort.”
Andrew: And Chapter 37: “Relationships blossom when the trio parts ways.” There were some fun ones in that list. We did a good job, I think.
Laura: I think so.
Andrew: However, as we do with every book, we are going to redo one of these seven-word summaries, and we voted in advance, and the one that very handily won was Chapter 14: “Neville reacts in a panic…”
Eric: Dot dot dot…
Andrew: Pretty clear why we want to redo that one.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: You know what it is? We’re completionists; that’s what it comes down to.
Andrew: Exactly.
Micah: What happened in that chapter?
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: That was the Unforgivable Curses, right? Where Fakey traumatized Neville by performing the Cruciatus Curse in front of the class.
Micah: That’s right.
Andrew: Yes. All right, so we want to do it? We want to give it a shot?
Laura: Oh, God. Are we going in host order?
Andrew: Sure.
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Andrew: Moody…
Eric: … does…
Micah: … unforgivable…
Laura: … things…
Andrew: … against…
Eric: … spiders… it’s all down to you, Micah.
Micah: … handily.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: There we go. I think that’s better than what we had originally.
Andrew: All right. Well, that one is resolved now. That was easy. And now one more time for Goblet of Fire, but this time we’re going to do a seven-word summary for the entire book. And Laura, you’re going to kick things off this time. Are you ready?
Laura: I see that. No, but let’s go.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: LFG.
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Laura: Resurrection…
Eric: … for…
Micah: … Voldemort…
Andrew: … awakens…
Eric: … old…
Micah: … echoes…
Laura: Not going to say, handily, right?
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: We could.
Eric: Let’s just do that.
Laura: No, no. Old echoes past, P-A-S-T. Like, of the past.
Andrew: Okay. That’s cryptic, that’s dark. I like it.
Muggle Mail
Andrew: And to continue wrapping up Goblet of Fire, let’s get to some emails from listeners who have been sounding off about our discussions. It’s always great to hear from listeners, so thank you so much everybody who writes in. We’ll start with this email concerning Romilda. This one didn’t have a name, Micah, I guess?
Micah: No, it’s from Romilda.
Andrew: Oh, whoa, from Romilda Vane? That’s kind of cool. On that gaping plot hole:
“Hey y’all! Catching up on the Goblet of Fire Chapter by Chapter, and two things I wanted to add to your discussion. You talked about how the Goblet was so easy to bypass with adding a fourth school, but the critical point is that Fakey had to Confund the Goblet to forget there were only three schools, which speaks to his insane magical prowess!”
Yes, good call. Thank you for that reminder.
Eric: Yeah, I wonder where he learned it all.
Andrew: And point two here:
“In the Muggle Mail episode, Goblet of Fire does not have a gaping plot hole! The whole point was for Harry to be killed! If Voldy’s plan was successful, Harry would be killed after Voldemort regenerates and they’d send his body back into the maze, trying to pass it off as Harry dying in the tournament. Voldemort also did not want anyone else to know he was back, as Dumbledore and Sirius call out at the end of the book. Their elaborate plan, if it worked, would have allowed for dead Harry, secretly alive Voldemort, and a full year of spying on Dumbledore as he didn’t know if Snape was still on his side or not. Love the show!”
Thank you, Romilda Vane.
Laura: Quite true.
Andrew: I love your work in the Harry Potter books.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Micah: The only thing I thought about when I was reading this email, though, is that if Voldemort did in fact come back and Harry was killed, wouldn’t there be the whole Dark Mark tattoo burning on Snape’s arm, and Snape likely would have alerted Dumbledore to this fact?
Laura: Yeah, but I don’t think Fudge would have listened anyway. I mean, we see how he reacts when Harry actually does survive and is an eyewitness to the fact that Voldemort is back. If there was no eyewitness to him coming back, I think he doubles down even harder.
Eric: So our next message comes from Laila regarding Death Eater forearms. At first I misread and thought “forums,” and I was like, “Where do I sign up?”
“Hey, folks. This has been a question I’ve had for a while and wanted to hear what y’all think. We read about so many individuals being brought before the Council of Magical Law at some point after Lord Voldemort’s downfall. Why did no one ever check the forearms of individuals during the height of putting folks on trial as supposed Death Eaters? Was this because the Dark Mark wasn’t showing, or because the Ministry didn’t know it was a thing? Surely, Dumbledore knew, as he exonerated Snape when Karkaroff listed his name during his trial. I always imagined the Mark to always be there, sort of like a white ink tattoo. It, amongst many other magical actions – like, you know, Veritaserum – would have solved a lot of issues during this time period.”
Preach, Laila! Based on the final chapters of the book when Snape flat out shows Cornelius Fudge his Dark Mark, it seems like news to Fudge, so somehow I guess the Ministry did not widely know about the Dark Mark. And it is just possible that after… that it’s tied somehow to Voldemort’s life force, which seems like something that he would do. Not as an anchor, the way Horcruxes are, but once he was gone, it’s quite possible that that forearm mark did actually evaporate, since Karkaroff, earlier this year, feared it getting darker and stronger. What do you guys think?
Andrew: Yeah, I think somewhere in the books it does say it faded. I don’t know which book it was or when exactly we learned it, but I think it did fade when Voldemort fell. I’m also wondering if it could have been easily concealed, and I don’t mean by just putting a long sleeve shirt over it.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Makeup?
Andrew: Yeah, makeup. Maybe there was a spell to fully hide it.
Eric: That’s how you detect a Death Eater. Who’s wearing long sleeves in July?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Yeah, Snape actually calls this out towards the end of Goblet when he goes to show Fudge his Dark Mark, and he says it’s not burning as brightly as it was an hour ago, so that implies that when not in use, it’s going to fade, potentially to the point of not being visible to the naked eye. With that said, it seems like the Ministry could just “Revelio” on people’s forearms if they’re suspected of being Death Eaters. There should be a way to see it.
Micah: And I seem to recall that a lot of the presumed Death Eaters said that they were put up to it against their own free will, and maybe in some cases even argued that they were under the Imperius Curse, so you can never 100% prove that just because they had the Dark Mark on their arm that they were a willing Death Eater, let’s say.
Laura: Right.
Eric: Yeah, that’s actually a good point. Man, if only I could blame several of my tattoos on being Imperiused, am I right?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: Kidding. That does remind me, though; I do need to get my MuggleCast tattoo…
Micah: Touched up?
Eric: Retouched up, yeah. It’s faded a bit over the years. Unlike this show!
Andrew: What year did you get that MuggleCast tattoo?
Eric: 2010.
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: And for the most part, it’s still visible, but the yellow’s gone a bit soft.
Micah: All right, our next email comes from Declan, talking about Barty Crouch, Jr. making his dad into a bone. And he says,
“Hey MuggleCasters, I just wanted to give my thoughts on the significance of Barty Crouch, Jr. transfiguring his father’s body into a bone. I believe Voldemort confided in Crouch Junior about the nature of his relationship with Tom Riddle, Sr., not due to any special degree of trust between the two, but rather to further indoctrinate an already radicalized Barty Crouch, Jr. and further solidify his loyalty whilst the weakened Voldemort was so dependent on him. Barty Crouch, Jr. in many ways appears to feel disenfranchised and abandoned by his own father. In sharing his own complex and fraught relationship with Tom Riddle, Sr., we see the cunning and seductive Tom Riddle, Jr. aspect of Voldemort’s character intentionally stoking feelings of affinity between Barty Crouch, Jr. and himself. Barty Crouch, Jr. seeks not only a substitute father in hoping Voldemort will welcome him ‘like a son,’ but also the sense of belonging and understanding brought about by a shared experience. If we presume that Barty Crouch, Jr. was aware of the steps of the ritual that took place in the graveyard, then he would know that the first ingredient was ‘bone of the father, unwillingly given.’ Voldemort murdered his own father and went on to further dehumanize him by reducing him to nothing more than the bone required to ensure the success of the ritual. Barty Crouch, Jr. could have disposed of his father’s body in any number of ways or concealed it as any number of things. I believe he chose the bone as some perverse way of feeling even more intertwined with Voldemort as his master. Barty Crouch, Jr. feels seen/reflected in Voldemort as the respective victims of paternal betrayal. As Voldemort murders his father and symbolically reduces him to a mere bone, Crouch Junior seeks to emulate his master. In a poetic ending to the fractious relationship between father and son, Junior’s final act against Senior was to literally transfigure him into ‘bone of the father.’ Love the show. Thanks, Declan.”
Andrew: That’s a beautiful theory.
Laura: Yeah, I agree.
Eric: Yeah. That was something I don’t think we caught on until toward the end of the book, just the extent of Barty Crouch, Jr.’s father issues and Voldemort as a surrogate for Barty Crouch, Jr., so I love the theory because it really itches that spot for me.
Laura: All right, our next email comes from Emily, who’s writing to us on Dark Marks and wand cores. Emily says,
“Greetings, MuggleCast, from your avid listener way up he-yah in Maine.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I probably butchered that because I don’t…
Andrew: “He-yah.” Is it kind of like a Boston accent type thing?
Laura: Ohh, I see. “Way up he-yah.” Okay, so:
“Two thoughts while listening through Goblet of Fire. First thought: In the graveyard scene when Voldemort regains his human form (which, in my head, is montaged to “Bring Me to Life” by Evanescence)…”
Eric: Of course.
[Laura laughs]
“He calls the Death Eaters to him by pressing on Wormtail’s Dark Mark. Andrew commented that his followers get there ‘pretty darn quick,’ which got me to thinking – did they have their Death Eater outfits on standby? Most of them were probably handy from the World Cup, but you have to think at least some of them have hidden those masks away for years when trying to pretend they had nothing to do with being a Death Eater. I just imagine Macnair, for example, getting the Dark Mark signal and then running around his house looking wildly everywhere for his mask. Or what if his wife had thrown it away? I mean, they have to be kind of gross if they were wearing them all the time; they’d get kind of sweaty or something. Or maybe she upcycled it into a kid’s Halloween costume, or sold it at a yard sale! How embarrassing would it be to show up at the revival of Voldemort in no mask? Or have to borrow a Freddy Kreuger mask and hope that no one said anything?”
Eric: Wow.
“Second thought: The shared wand cores between Harry and Voldemort really take a center stage starting in this book, which got me wondering why Voldemort received the wand with the core of Fawkes’s feather tail in the first place? Could he – I know this is far fetched and probably a crackpot theory, but – could Voldemort actually be a Dumbledore? It’s said that all wizarding families are related if you go back enough, so why would Fawkes’s tail have such an affinity for Voldemort? Did Ollivander tell Dumbledore about Tom Riddle’s wand when he bought it? Or did that information come out much later? Does the fact that a phoenix tail chose Tom Riddle indicate that he, at one point, could have chosen a pure and good path? Or does it possibly foreshadow his tale of rebirth? And lastly, if Harry didn’t have the Horcrux as part of him, which wand would he have received instead? Or would it be the same wand? As I was writing that last point it got a little out of control, but this is why you guys bring the real magic to the fandom. Thank you so much for the wonders you create through podcasting. You impact so many of us more than you realize.”
Laura: Emily, I really love all of this. I love imagining Amy Lee’s vocals as Voldemort is rising out of that pot, so thank you for that image. But also, I love the point about “Would Harry have received the wand with Fawkes’s feather core if he didn’t have the Horcrux inside of him?” I think it’s really interesting to posit, did that wand actually choose Voldemort, and because it chose Voldemort, it chose Harry? Or was it actually because the two of them shared much more beyond just the Horcrux? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone posit it that way before.
Andrew: Yeah, I guess it wouldn’t surprise me if you go way back into the family tree you do find some sort of connection there, but I like this idea that you’re raising, too, Laura. And I think a few weeks ago on the show, weren’t we talking about, like, did Fawkes only hand over two feathers? I mean, it’s destiny. It’s destiny, too, and I think that’s what I may have said at the time. This was just how it was always meant to be. It was written in the stars.
Eric: Well, I like the connection between Voldemort and rebirth, which of course we witness at the end of this book. And also just Harry’s own rebirth, partly at the very end, after Deathly Hallows, after when he goes into the forest, but even just from age one, he survives the Killing Curse that kills everybody else. So he’s born, or basically living on a leased life, and so the phoenix sort of, through its magic of rebirth, applies to him as well.
Micah: And isn’t there some relation to the Peveralls that both Harry and Voldemort have?
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Micah: I mean, to the point of what Emily raised about old wizarding families, they’re all related if you go back far enough. But I’m really just liking the analysis that she did here, all these questions. Most of these I don’t know that we’ve ever really thought about them much over the course of the history of this podcast.
Andrew: As for the honestly silly question about getting changed really quick when Voldemort is summoning you, I’m just imagining how it works in The Sims video game when you try to change their clothes. They just do this jump-spin and suddenly they’re in their gear. So that’s what I think happens with the Death Eaters.
Eric: Amazing.
Andrew: They just magically get into gear.
Eric: All I can think of was The Incredibles. “Honey, where’s my super suit?”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: Do you think that could be a plausible excuse for the ones who didn’t show up? Voldemort definitely puts them on blast in saying, “Hey, there’s a few of you who should be standing here who weren’t here.” Maybe those were the ones who couldn’t find their old Death Eater costumes.
Andrew: Yeah, they were having their own Incredibles moment.
Laura: [laughs] Yeah.
Eric: “I know I put it around here somewhere. Ugh, it doesn’t fit anymore; what am I going to do?”
Andrew: So Voldemort should show some grace for the people who were showing up late or not showing up at all.
Laura: Yeah, not in his wheelhouse.
Andrew: I mean, he can’t expect them to carry that cloak around at all times. It’s unreasonable, even by Voldemort’s standards. Come on, man.
Eric: I don’t think he has to be too forgiving. They’re going to have to lip sync for their lives.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
[Ad break]
Andrew: All right, next email:
“In the upcoming television show, which actors will be the hardest to replace? In other words, who do you think most embodied their characters? My answer is definitely Robbie Coltrane, Maggie Smith, and maybe Mark Williams.”
Micah: All of the above. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah, Robbie Coltrane is a big one.
Eric: Yeah, especially through all seven books. Because we’re focused toward Order, looking forward to Order, and the news about Imelda Staunton recording – which was not new news, but for the theme park – I’m thinking Umbridge. That was really nailed very, very well in the film, tonally and content-wise and everything, so it’d be hard to replace Umbridge. That’s who I’m thinking of.
Andrew: So with all due respect to Mark Williams, he’s just sort of a goofball in the movies with occasional bits of seriousness, so I think he’ll be easy to replace. Maggie Smith, love her; replaceable. Robbie Coltrane, he will be hard to replace, I think, because of his fatherly relationship with Harry across the series, and his gruffy voice. I would say Michael Gambon or Richard Harris, but we’ve seen three Dumbledores now, and I’ve been cool with all three, so…
Eric: Well, here’s a suggestion then: If they are going to replace… well, they have to replace these characters. My suggestion for the HBO Max show would be to be as ruthlessly faithful to book canon as possible for the description. So make Petunia a blonde, for instance. Low-hanging fruit like that. That doesn’t necessarily limit casting, but if you really want to shoot for the stars, make the Marauders the age they’re supposed to be based on the book, not who’s famous in Britain and available, because there’s good actors of all ages, shapes, sizes, everything. So that would be my guiding line, I guess, for… because you can replace any character with a different actor who wasn’t altogether that close to book canon in the movies, is what I’m saying, to make a good TV show. Does that make sense?
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: For me, one that really comes to mind is Rupert Grint; I just think he embodied Ron so much. I think that the natural tendency is to go to the adult actors, but I think the trio is really going to be hard to replace, and going to receive a lot of criticism early on.
Eric: It was right there the whole time, you’re right. The trio.
Andrew: And it’s going to be really interesting to see how the Internet reacts because the Internet is going to have to remember – and Dan Radcliffe actually said this the other day, so I’m repurposing his thought when he was being interviewed – people are going to have to be really easy on the kids, because they’re kids, and they don’t deserve to be attacked or criticized for decisions that are probably being made way above their heads in terms of dialogue and how they deliver lines and stuff like that.
Micah: Sure, sure.
Andrew: But yeah, it will be hard to see a new trio.
Micah: The other thing he said, which I thought was really important, is that social media is a real concern now, where it wasn’t when they were initially cast and in their roles in the early movies. Even into the some of the later films, too; I mean, the platforms just weren’t there, and they certainly weren’t as critical as they are now. But I don’t think we can move on from this question without also mentioning Alan Rickman as Snape. I just think people associate him and Snape so closely together that it’s going to be hard to have somebody else step into that role.
Eric: This next one comes from James about Voldemort’s return.
“Hi, MuggleCast. I wanted to add my thoughts on what sometimes seems like the giant plot hole of Book 4’s existence: the fact that Fakey could have just handed Harry a surprise Portkey after class or something, and avoided the whole ordeal of spending months getting Harry to the center of the maze. I think the key is that Voldemort really wants his comeback to be a complete secret, without even the smallest hint of suspicion. If Harry shows up dead one ordinary day for no apparent reason, it’s going to instantly bring up thoughts of his lifelong connection to Voldemort. So instead, Voldemort waits for this crazy event with a history of violence and death, which is the rare thing that can provide a plausible non-Voldemort pretext for Harry suddenly showing up dead. Honestly, it’s a pretty good plan. If the plan goes as it’s supposed to, and Harry shows up back at Hogwarts dead with the Triwizard Cup pulling him along as a Portkey, appearing to the audience as if it came straight from the center of the maze, what are people going to think? Probably that Harry somehow died in the maze as he got to the cup. We actually see this by the reaction to Cedric’s death. Everyone settles on the explanation that the tournament caused some sort of tragic accident. Pretty much no one besides Harry’s inner circle thinks Voldemort had anything to do with it — which is just what would have happened if Harry had died in the graveyard, and just what Voldemort was hoping for, which is why he went to the trouble of such a crazy elaborate plan.”
Thanks, James. Yeah, that should have been… I mean, it wasn’t explicit in the books, but I feel like we’re really nailing that in our discussions of the book about that that was the plan with the Portkey and everything.
Andrew: HedwigsTheme is saying, “This is the best explanation for that plot hole I’ve heard thus far.”
Eric: Ah, we have to remove hole status. We can’t call it plot hole anymore.
Andrew: [laughs] Remove hole status. Interesting potential episode title.
Laura: Our next email comes from Bev, and Bev writes in about Nagini’s milk. Oh boy.
“Hi y’all. While the missing finger/missing nose gag was good, I have a different theory. My headcanon is that the effect of Voldemort drinking Nagini’s milk (ick) is that he became more snake-like. So the lack of a nose, the baldness, the pale skin, etc. is because of Nagini. I’m also sure this would’ve had other effects on Voldemort’s corporeal form. It must, since she was a Maledictus. “
Andrew: Oooh.
Laura: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think the movies took it a little too far, personally. I always felt like they really leaned in to the snakelike nature of Voldemort in a way that wasn’t super necessary, because it was already pretty evident from the way he was described in the books. And maybe it was just Ralph Fiennes’s body language; maybe that’s more what turned me off to the way he was portrayed in the films. I don’t know. What do y’all think?
Eric: Yeah, I definitely think… I mean, you are what you eat, right?
[Laura laughs]
Eric: So there is definitely a connection there between the venom of a snake who used to be human and a man who wants to be human again by drinking snake’s venom. So I like the… same as the connection between Voldemort and Harry, it’s just the same thing over and over and over again, seven ways to Sunday. Voldemort is related to snakes, in a way. He resembles a snake. His House Slytherin is snaky. He speaks to snakes. All this other stuff is… so many connections between Voldemort and snakes that I just really like this theory.
Andrew: Yeah, I think this is one part of the overall correct answer. I mean, this guy is just a mess, splitting his soul into seven pieces, all the killing that he’s done, drinking Nagini’s milk, being a terrible person… I mean, there’s a lot of reasons you would end up looking like that, I think, so I could see this being one critical portion of who Voldemort ultimately turned into.
Micah: Our next email comes from Sabrina on Harry Potter and A Merchant of Venice. She says,
“Hi MuggleCast. This is Sabrina, 35, from Germany, and I’m a Hufflepuff. I’m a long-time-listener, and first of all I wanted to say, ‘Thank you for all you do.’ There’s nothing better than listening to MuggleCast when you bring your toddler to kindergarten.”
[Micah laughs]
Andrew and Laura: Aww.
“I was listening to Episode #665 the other day and you guys were talking about the ingredients for the Voldy-resurrection potion and the fact that Wormtail had to offer up his flesh as a servant. That reminded me very much of the Shakespearean image of the ‘pound of flesh’ in A Merchant of Venice. The character Antonio borrows 3,000 ducats from Shylock, who demands a pound of flesh as security. I found this very reminiscent of the situation of Wormtail and Voldemort. Voldemort also demands the flesh of the servant as a kind of security, and eventually Wormtail can’t keep his end of the bargain when he ‘betrays’ Voldemorts and hesitates in Book 7, which eventually leads to his death. I found that connection really interesting as the pound of flesh has become a symbol of security in many literary works. Thanks again for all the great work! Sabrina.”
Andrew: Very cool.
Eric: If only Pettigrew had a Portia to defend him and be like, “No, you don’t have to take his flesh.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Yeah, I read that book in school. I bet the wizarding world would actually have a way to exact on that amount of sacrifice, but it’s a heck of a… it’s a good literary reference because I think, like all great works of literature, there’s some crossover.
Andrew: And thanks for the kind words, Sabrina. This next email is from Jeremy on portraits being a security nightmare.
“G’day MuggleCast! It’s 13-year-old Jeremy from Sydney, Australia, and I have been listening to your episode on the Yule Ball and I have a question about Cedric’s hint to Harry. Cedric tells Harry about how to get into the prefects’ bathroom with a painting as the entry. Harry gets in and he’s not a prefect. Does this sound familiar to you? Well, it sounds the same as the last book when Sirius gets into Gryffindor Tower. So if I am correct, every entry to something with a painting, you just need the password? It’s kind of like a security nightmare to me! What do you think? Love the show.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yes, Jeremy, it’s well documented on the show that much of the school is…
[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]
Andrew: And it is a massive flaw of the school that you just need a password to get in somewhere. And as I say that, it’s like, “Well, that’s what we do with computers; that’s a massive flaw too,” yeah, but we’re trying to get better with face ID and fingerprint scans and passkeys and two-factor authentication.
Laura: Right, I know.
Andrew: We’re evolving. What’s Hogwarts doing? How are they evolving? That castle’s been around for a while.
Laura: I feel like we’ve all been sitting around asking, “Where’s the 2FA for this?”
Andrew: “Where’s the 2FA?”
Laura: Come on, y’all.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I’d love to be in Gryffindor tower with my homies and the one guy who hasn’t been back yet is doing homework in his library. I get… an owl flies in and is like, “This guy’s trying to get into the common room. Are you familiar? Are you familiar? Do you authorize?”
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Well, and you would have to think that with all the magic that’s in the wizarding world, they could come up with some additional layer of security that detects whether or not this student is Gryffindor…
Micah: Prefect.
Andrew: … so they can come through the Fat Lady portrait. Or yeah, a prefect. That seems very possible in this wizarding world. That doesn’t seem like a particularly crazy ask in terms of magic. [laughs]
Eric: Right, and I mean, honestly, the verbal passwords don’t even have special characters, and they don’t have to be a certain amount of length.
Andrew: Of characters, right. Good point. That’s a good point too. Yeah, any special characters? Do you need a uppercase letter and a lowercase letter?
Eric: Right. Dictate that.
Micah: Yeah, this isn’t any bathroom.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: It’s the best bathroom. Wait, it’s the only bathroom. Well…
Andrew: It’s the one that has the best baths, it seems.
Micah: Who knows what Harry could have walked in on? I mean, it’s for older students.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: Lot of taps.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Go ahead, Laura. Sorry, I cut you off earlier.
Laura: Oh, no. I was just going to add if it’s a verbal password, how easily does it let you off the hook for mispronunciations?
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Or how close do you have to get to the password for the Fat Lady to be like, “Ah, all right. You’re in.”
Eric: If that’s the… I mean, some of us struggle with pronunciation of Harry Potter terms a lot, so it’s like, what if we had to sleep outside our common room because we didn’t say Levi-OH-sa, we said Levio-SAH?
Laura: I mean, think about… what was…? I forget which book it was, but it was over the winter holidays – it might have been this one, actually – and the password was “Fairy lights,” and the fat lady goes, “That’s right, lairy fights! Haha!” because she’s drunk.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: So they’re drinking on the job too. We know in the wizarding world there’s the Thief’s Downfall – we see that in Deathly Hallows and in Gringotts – and it washes away magical concealments or enchantments.
Eric: Yes.
Andrew: So that seems adjacent to a similar type of magic that would prevent somebody who’s not supposed to be going into the prefects’ bathroom or into a Hogwarts House they don’t belong to.
Micah: Well, what does it do to you? Give you a rash?
Andrew: The Thief’s Downfall?
Micah: No, no, no. If you go into the prefects’ bathroom and you’re not a prefect.
Andrew: It just pushes you back out or something.
Laura: Or it dumps water on you.
Eric: Yeah, what’s the incentive to becoming a prefect if just anybody can walk into the bathroom?
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it’s good for your resume, but…
Eric: [laughs] Yeah.
Micah: Especially something as simple as a password can leak out.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: Anybody could end up in that bathroom.
Eric: So our next message – and this is a really cool one – comes from Julian about comparing the tasks to the first three books.
“Hey MuggleCast, I had a theory about the tasks in the Triwizard Tournament and how they link to the books before Goblet of Fire. Task one links to Book 1, as it is the more action-packed of the three. Harry must retrieve something (the Stone/the egg) from a looming danger (Voldemort/the dragon). The dragons themselves could be linked to Norbert, and the avoidance from Ron could parallel the avoidance from Hermione in the first part of Book 1. Task two links to Book 2, as it involves a mystery to be solved, and saving a loved one, specifically one of the Weasleys (Ginny/Ron). Also, the re-introduction of characters from the second book (Myrtle and Dobby) as well as being reintroduced to the Polyjuice Potion. Task three links to Book 3 due to a murder occurring and the Ministry having no clue about the true assailant. Additionally, Harry goes over a lot of old Defense Against the Dark Arts spells, and the third book is notable as the one where he learns the most Defense Against the Dark Arts (at least, he learns it more effectively from Lupin than any other teacher). It also includes Trewlaney’s Book 3 prophecy coming to a head. Would love to hear your thoughts on this, Julian.”
Eric: That’s cool, Julian.
Andrew: That is very cool.
Eric: This is the most direct and convincing version of this that I’ve heard, the way it was succinct at threading the needle. I really appreciate it. I think it’s very interesting.
Micah: Yeah, I agree.
Laura: Agree.
Micah: Next email comes from Ann on the real Barty Crouch, Jr.
“Hey guys, just listened to Episode #663 and I had a thought about your discussion of Barty Crouch, Jr. Ya’ll were going back and forth on what his intentions were as a new Death Eater and how maybe it was guilt by association based on who he was caught with and the severity of their crimes against the Longbottoms. I disagree! Though he was young and had gone through a childhood with severe parenting, I always thought of Barty Crouch, Jr. as a complete psychopath! His ‘breakdown and pleading’ at his trial strikes me as what a very good liar would do. One reason Voldemort considers him to be ‘his greatest servant’ could be that they display similar psychopathy. Most of the time I agree that the characters are complex individuals but in Barty Crouch, Jr.’s case I saw it all as black and white. Thanks for the show.”
Andrew: Wow. Someone is not a fan of BCJ.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, fair enough; he’s not a great guy. But I can definitely appreciate the interpretation that he just wasn’t right, whether it was he was a psychopath or whatever else you might want to label him. I can definitely understand that interpretation because at the end of the day, you can have conversations about intent versus impact, and it doesn’t really matter what Barty Crouch, Jr.’s intent was with what he did, because the impact was what it was. I will say, I still prefer to take a little bit more of a gray area reading of his character, just on the basis of how we saw his relationship with his father manifest, and how he’s clearly looking for a surrogate father in Voldemort.
Eric: Yeah, this recent reread has convinced me almost the opposite, that his innocence was absolute, or he was wrapped up in stuff he didn’t understand or comprehend – until Azkaban, and then he was like, “Oh, now I’m going to be the Death Eater I thought I would be.” I will say, the movie version doesn’t do him any favors. First of all, there’s the tongue thing.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: But then also, you see him at the trial kind of working his way, leaving a little bit before it all goes down, like he knows it’s going to go down. But in the book, he’s just a scared teenager. So it’s very interesting. I tend to still stick with he was caught up in stuff too big for him the first time, and then post-Azkaban is absolutely 100% responsible for all of his actions.
Micah: I’m kind of liking this, though, that he was really just playing his father the whole time, playing the courtroom the whole time. It would align with the Barty Crouch, Jr. we see at the very end of Goblet of Fire.
Eric: I like that, yeah.
Micah: Because what else would you do in that situation? I understand what you’re saying; in the movie it’s portrayed much differently, but if you’re trying to get out of the situation, of course you would play it up as much as possible. Try to get Daddy to get you off the hook.
Eric: Yeah, that’s why it’s unknowable. But we know that if Barty Crouch, Jr. was faking, if Fakey was faking being innocent for the courtroom, it worked so well that it actually garnered sympathy from the audience to the point where Barty Crouch, Sr.’s Ministry of Magic prospects to become Minister were never again. People thought he was too hard on his kid after that moment. So if Barty Crouch, Jr. was faking it again, or before – the first time – that’s wild. He’s wildly effective.
Laura: I think what makes it a fun analysis moment for this show is that we’ll never really know.
Eric: Right.
Laura: There’s not enough evidence one way or the other. Even – we called it out earlier in the book – Dumbledore says he doesn’t know if Barty Crouch, Jr. actually did it.
Andrew: The great mystery of BCJ.
Laura: Yeah. [laughs] Well, our next email comes from Madoka. I hope I pronounced that correctly. They write in on the tasks of prior Triwizard Tournaments, and they write,
“Hey MuggleCast! I’m gonna hit you with a question right off the bat – what were the tasks of the past tournaments? Were they the same or different from the ones we get to read about? I’m pretty sure there was a mention of a different task happening in the past, but what it was or what it said fails me. What could the tasks have possibly been to get the death toll so high that they had to stop the tournament? Did they water the tasks down in this year’s tournament, or did the tournament just go on for so long that the deaths just happened to add up high enough? Would love to hear your thoughts.”
Andrew: It’s funny to hear this person say “watered down” when there’s dragons involved in one of the tasks.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: What if there was some sort of climbing task, or some sort of other aerial task? Something that just comes with a lot of danger.
Eric: These tasks were plenty dangerous too.
Andrew: They were, they were.
Eric: So yeah, it could be anything.
Andrew: More dragons. Five dragons against one wizard.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Even angrier merpeople. Bigger Grindylows.
Laura: Yeah, I can almost…
Micah: It’s not always…
Laura: Go ahead, Micah.
Micah: Well, I was thinking it’s probably not always at Hogwarts, right? So being at a different school would allow for different challenges to be present, right? If you’re at Durmstrang or Beauxbatons.
Andrew: I was going to say, if it’s not at Hogwarts it’s inherently safer, because the school is a mess.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: That’s a fair point.
Eric: Maybe. Maybe. I don’t know. Yeah, if you’re in the mountains, it’s mountain climbing. If you’re at Beauxbatons, it’s French cuisine. Those are the tasks.
Andrew: [laughs] They ate themselves to death.
Laura: I kind of wonder if in prior tournaments, there weren’t requirements to have the tasks necessarily take place on school grounds. I could see the regulations being a lot more lax about where and when things were happening. I could also see… just because we know this tournament has gone on for a very long time, I could see there not being as many safety regulations in place in terms of having crews of people on hand to jump in and help if you were to send up those red sparks when you’re in the maze showing that you’re in trouble. These just might not be things they had before.
Andrew: And maybe less hints about what lies ahead, too, because they get some clues. Maybe they were way less prepared with previous Triwizard Tournaments. Well, speaking of the tasks, Pauline wrote in about the pressure of the second task.
“Hello, everyone. When listening to your episode on the second task, I had a thought concerning your critical view on the people being taken under the lake. You were pointing out that it was completely unnecessary and way too extreme to take actual loved ones of the respective champions as ‘captives’ and that it could have been done easily without them. But maybe the added pressure of having to save someone you love is a part of this task in order to test how the champions can handle it and act under seemingly real stakes. Just a thought. Keep up the good work and greetings from Germany.”
I like the thought, Pauline. How do they react under pressure? And we did later learn after that discussion – I might be wrong, but I think Eric in particular was very fired up about this concept – I think we later learned… I think Ron or Hermione says later on, “They did ask our permission to participate,” right?
Eric: Yeah, it’s in the opening paragraph of the very next chapter. Yeah.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Totally overlooked it. I have made my peace; I have disclaimered away. That said, I think the spirit of wanting to get to the goal would have been enough pressure without the psychological torture that Fleur undergoes, for instance, in losing her sister, or not being able to save her sister. Those scars are probably still with her!
Micah: [laughs] Well, no recap episode of Goblet of Fire would have been appropriate without having a question related to the second task in here, after all the discussion we had on it.
Eric: I appreciate that, Micah. Thank you very much.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: And thank you to Pauline, and all our listeners from Germany. Shout-out to Germany. Danke. This next email comes from Julia on the Room of Requirement and imported cauldrons.
“Hello! I’ve been enjoying the podcast and the series Chapter by Chapter. I have a question and a thought about Goblet of Fire. Do you think that if Harry had gone to the Room of Requirement, it would have given him the Gillyweed and/or another solution to being able to compete in the second challenge? And a thought – when I reread Goblet of Fire I noticed the running bit about Percy and the imported cauldrons with thin bottoms and laughed at the alternate universe ending where Wormtail makes the potion in the graveyard but uses an illegally imported cauldron and ruins the return of Voldemort.”
[Laura laughs]
“They had recently been in Albania, after all. Thanks for everything. You’ve helped me navigate a divorce and get my life back to normal.”
Eric: Wow, Julia.
Andrew: Aww.
Eric: Hilarious about the cauldron bottoms.
Micah: I was actually wondering what would have happened if they went through the whole resurrection, and the bottom just dropped out.
Eric: Literally?
Micah: Yeah.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: And it was tied back to Percy’s… never mind. His problems he was having earlier on in the book. All right, our final email today comes from Katie, and it’s kind of a fun one. It’s about Blast-Ended Skrewts, and she says,
“So my husband had a very fun theory about Skrewts. He believes the Skrewts date back as far as the Fantastic Beasts era. I’ve yapped on enough about everything Harry Potter that when we watched The Secrets of Dumbledore, and Theseus and Newt emerged from the tie Portkey and the manticore leg finds its way into the lake at Hogwarts, my husband leaned over and said (unknowingly like Ron in Goblet of Fire) whispered, “Skrewts,” and it clicked. So long story short, the manticore leg from Theseus and Newt’s adventure with fire crabs came to be an essential part of the creation of Skrewts.”
What do we think?
Andrew: Wow.
Laura: That would be a really fun Easter egg.
Andrew: And there’s always been that theory about Newt giving Hagrid an egg, right?
Eric: Aragog.
Andrew: Aragog, so maybe…
Eric: Yeah. But I love this idea that you cross a manticore and a fire crab, and yeah, they’re at Hogwarts. Ahh. See, this is more satisfying of a mystery than the whole predictions of Tycho Dodonus and the prophecy about who Credence really is.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: None of that is interesting, but this, I will watch a fourth installment of the film franchise.
Andrew: Heck, you’ll watch two more movies, since they promised two.
Eric: Heck, I’ll watch the five that were promised!
Laura: Too bad they’re parked.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: You say park because Newt is coming back to the park! [laughs]
Andrew: Oh, of course! Forgot about that.
Eric: Eddie. Eddie is coming back.
Andrew: His great return. Well, this has been a really fun Muggle Mail episode. And listeners, if you have any feedback about this episode, or you want to tell us how you lock down your bathroom, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Laura is shaking her head. Laura, I want to know how to lock down the prefects’ bathroom, or my own bathroom. I got a tub.
Laura: Oh, no, I was… you just made me giggle, that’s all. I wasn’t admonishing you.
Andrew: I’ve got spouts. [laughs] Or you can call us. Our number is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, bring your copy of Order of the Phoenix digital Blu-ray, DVD… VHS? Do those exist? Because we’ll be offering up our Order of the Phoenix movie commentary.
Eric: You forgot laser disc and reel to reel.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay, sure.
[Eric laughs]
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Last week’s question – and this was actually going back a few weeks, so thanks to everybody for your patience – with what 2006 movie was the first trailer for Order of the Phoenix released? The correct answer was Happy Feet! And shout-out especially to Danny K., who says that they saw the movie Happy Feet for this reason, to catch the Order of the Phoenix trailer. That’s hardcore.
Andrew: Sounds right. Back in the day, we had to do that. Wasn’t so easy to watch trailers online.
Eric: Yeah, or try streaming with a 56k modem, and it would load every couple of seconds, and then it would buffer, and then you’d have to reload, then you’d watch the next six seconds and the previous six… it was awful.
Micah: We’re all having flashbacks to trying to update MuggleNet and it crashing, right? Because it couldn’t handle the traffic.
Eric: Oh, man. So at some point, Andrew, during these answers, somebody has requested the Dumbledore voice; I’ve highlighted that part. Is that good for you?
Andrew: Sure, let’s do it.
Eric: I’ll just defer to you, so there we go. Correct answers, in addition to Danny K., were submitted by Patronus Seeker; Mumble the Penguin; Buff Daddy; Quick, someone threw the Goblet in the lake; The soft return of Tofu Tom; I watched this on a date and loved the movie but sucked at the mini golf, so apologies to my date for being in a bad mood; SassyRavenclaw43; Karma’s a Snitch; Lady Hermione lookalike; That look that Dumbledore gives Fudge; Order of the Phoenix is giving Wednesday; and Andrew?
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Another dangerous year gone, and welcome to the second killing war!”
Eric: [laughs] Lauren P.; I’m not actually Count Ravioli but I miss them… aw. The importance of being Harry; Never played before but this was a core memory; Mrs. Snape; One lost warlock; RIP MinaLima, Harry Potter books; Dudley’s former turtle hurled out of the greenhouse window, Book 1, Chapter 3; Luke the 12-year-old; Joy S.; Winky’s overworked therapist; The money Dumbledore owes Harry for his therapy; MuggleCast socks plus Laura’s pants plus MuggleCast 19 years later T-shirt make an outfit that is totally fetch…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: … Anna; and “I’m a Puff!” So wow, lot of suggestions. They were adding up over the weeks that we did not do Quizzitch, and similarly, we will also not be doing Quizzitch next week, but here is the question for Episode 675: In the United States, Harry Potter and the Order to the Phoenix the movie was the fifth highest-grossing film of 2007 domestically. Name at least two films that year which earned more money. So Order of the Phoenix the movie is number five; what were at least two of the other most grossing films of 2007 in the US alone? Also, bonus points to anyone who plays Quizzitch if you don’t look this up and you get them right. We’re going to do a whole new thing with Quizzitch, which is I’ve now added a question to the form that says, “Did you look this up?”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Don’t worry; you will still win if you look this up. It’s an open book quiz, after all. But we’re going to track and just deliver the percentage each week of people – we’re keeping you honest, by the way – who say that they had to look up the answer to the question.
Andrew: Oh, okay. Well, this one takes some effort to look up if you really want to look it up, so we appreciate if you put in any sort of effort for Quizzitch.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: Always, always, always. I think people do it for the fun names. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah. This show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We are an independent podcast doing this show because we’re really passionate about the Harry Potter fandom, and because we’re an indie show, your support is of the utmost importance. In fact, it is the only reason why we’ve been able to podcast 19 years later. So here are the two best ways to help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. Recent bonus MuggleCast episodes cover theme park announcements and the major news concerning the recent Harry Potter illustrated editions, and we have a another big newsy installment of bonus MuggleCast coming up later this week. For even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers – we’re going to announce new stickers in a couple weeks, by the way – another new physical gift each year, a video message from one of the four of us, our private Facebook and Discord groups where you can hang out with us and fellow fans, and so much more. We could not do this without you, so thanks, everybody, for your support. And if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and also help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. And last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. And don’t forget to go to Instagram and follow MuggleCast right there so we can hit that 10,000 follower threshold. Thank you, and that does it for this week’s episode. We’ll see everybody next week. Thank you so much for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.