Transcript #449 - MuggleCast

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #449, Torturous Toad (OOTP 13, Detention With Dolores)

Show Intro

[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. This is Episode 449. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: We are without Micah this week, but we are joined by another M, and this is a listener, a Slug Club member over on Patreon, Megan. Hi, Megan. Welcome to the show.

Megan: Hello.

Andrew: It’s good to have you on. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Megan: My name is Megan. My favorite book is Order of the Phoenix, actually, so I’m really excited to be on.

Andrew: Perfect.

Megan: Favorite movie is Chamber of Secrets. My Hogwarts House is Hufflepuff; Ilvermorny is Thunderbird. My Patronus is an eagle, which I think makes me a true Huffleclaw.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Megan: And my favorite teacher at Hogwarts… this took me a while to decide, but I’m going to go with Lupin.

Andrew: Okay, yeah. Well, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you on, and thank you for your support on Patreon; we really appreciate it. And on today’s episode, we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter unlucky 13, “Detention with Dolores,” and this chapter is definitely very unlucky. But first, a news item. A lot of people got excited about this; I was unsure how people were going to take this news. [laughs] The first official Harry Potter flagship store is going to be opening in New York later this summer. They are promising a brand new and unique experience dedicated to Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts; it will house the largest collection of Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts products in the world under one roof. Fans will be able to grab Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans, personalized robes – whatever that means – along with rare collectible items, hand-signed artwork, and exclusive ranges. They also are going to have House wands, whatever that means.

Laura: Yeah, I’m very curious about that.

Andrew: Are they going to be red, green, blue, yellow?

Laura: Maybe they light up in the House colors.

Eric: Ohh, like how Harry’s wand shoots red sparks in the books?

Andrew: That would be neat. This is one of those ideas I’m surprised hasn’t come into existence sooner, because we all love our House robes, our scarves, our House edition books – which we’ve spoken about in recent years – but never the wand. The wand has never been personalized by House, and one could argue that the wand is the most personal item in the wizarding world for a witch or wizard, so to combine the personalization of the House with the wand, that sounds pretty special. I think I would buy one of those.

Eric: I think maybe they’ve reached the peak of selling those individual character wands, though, is what it is. It’s like, for 15 years – give or take 5 – they’ve been selling Bellatrix’s wand, Voldemort’s wand, Harry’s wand, Hermione’s wand, and so they’ve gotten a majority of the sales they’re going to get out of those. I think they’ll probably still sell them at this flagship store, but the House wand is a genuinely new idea, like you’re saying. Like, “Oh, we never thought of this.” Could be a cool idea.

Andrew: Yeah, right. So what do you guys think about this overall flagship Harry Potter store? [laughs] I don’t think we ever would have predicted this would be coming.

Eric: I’m not sure that this is something that the fans couldn’t do better, I guess? I mean, in certain ways, yes, official licensed merchandise, great. But I wouldn’t have expected a hub of this commercialism. I guess it was both inevitable, and it’s a shame for me to see it, because I was just at the Primark store in Boston a couple months ago, right after LeakyCon, and they’ve got an entire half floor of licensed Harry Potter merchandise that is otherwise, you can’t find it anywhere else, and that is appealing for people who want to do gift givings. I did most of my Christmas gifts from there, and all that stuff. So it makes sense, but I also liked sort of the thrill of there’s certain things you find at Primark; there’s certain things you find at Universal, at the theme park. I don’t know. I’m torn, because at the same time, we have a lot of… I had just decided to support fan artists and fan creators on Etsy and things.

Andrew: Right, you’re out of luck.

Eric: Well, we can still do that.

Andrew: You’re not going to be able to visit. Yeah, but you committed, so you can’t… I mean, you can walk in here, but you can’t buy anything. I’m sorry.

Eric: You know what? I will accept that. I will absolutely accept that. This has came at the worst time because I had just agreed to not buy anything offi… and I won’t.

Andrew: And they’re taunting you. [laughs]

Eric: I’m going to… yeah, I think that’s it.

Andrew: Laura, Megan, what do you think? Is this something that sounds appealing, or does this sound like just a cash grab?

Laura: I think it just depends on how it’s done. If it’s done well, I think it could be a great experience. I mean, I see here in the notes that there’s a walk-up window, and they’ve got signage outside for coffee and ice cream and butterbeer. So while I might not necessarily be tempted to go on a shopping spree here, it could be a cool experience to just walk in and look around.

Andrew: Yeah. I love coffee…

Laura: Me too.

Andrew: [laughs] … and I was very intrigued by them selling coffee. If they’re going to do some sort of Harry Potter coffee and they’re going to call it as such, I would be extremely into that. And please sell grounds that I can take home and brew at home. And yeah, you also mentioned the butterbeer and the ice cream. I feel like they are going to be selling the same butterbeer that is available in the theme parks; the Studio Tour does this. I think this is kind of just an extension of what we see in the Studio Tour in London. I’m sure the interior is going to be beautiful like the theme park stores, the design and care that they put into the theme park, so I’ll be very eager to check this out. I do also see a mention of Wizarding Passport right in the storefront, which is pretty interesting, too, so I’m sure this is going to be a big way to promote Wizarding World Gold as well. Maybe they’ll have a special lounge for Wizarding World Gold members. Micah and I can go hang out.

Eric: Oooh. Okay, a lounge seems fun.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Maybe they’ll actually have pins when Micah walks in and tries to get one.

Andrew: Yes, I bet this will become a location where you can get those pins.

Eric: But then the other thing is that we’ve been talking recently about a potential permanent home for the Exhibition once it stops touring, and it’s been over, I think, 11 years now for the Harry Potter Exhibition, so could it possibly just end up, I don’t know, adjacent to this building? On the other side of this building, wherever this building is going to be?

Andrew: I don’t know much about this building, but I’m looking at the concept art, and it’s four stories. They say the shop is three stories, so is the fourth floor for storage? Or to Eric’s point, could that be saved for future expansion, say, an exhibition or more merchandise?

Eric: It’s your Wizarding World Passport lounge, Andrew. It’s an entire floor.

Andrew: Ah, yes, where we can play Harry Potter video games; we can listen to Harry Potter podcasts; we can complain about where buttons are. I don’t know.

Eric: [laughs] I’m glad you mentioned podcasts. Well, I’m glad you mentioned podcasts because do you think there’ll be a dedicated event space?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: For whatever they want to do? You know how the fourth floor of Barnes & Noble Union Square…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: … has that just whole area for crowds? The little mini raised stage and seating area for reading books, and when there’s not an event going on, it’s independent reading time? But I’m wondering if the official store will throw fans a bone there or… but not even fans a bone; just give an opportunity for itself to be an event space.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point. I mean, this store could turn into a central hub for all things Harry Potter. Hosting events, as you say. Maybe hosting some charity events. All kinds of things. Final point on this: This is coming into existence because, like I said a few weeks ago, people are still really passionate about Harry Potter, and they’re still very eager to buy merchandise. And you mentioned that shop, Eric, that has a special Harry Potter section; Barnes & Noble has them too. BoxLunch, Hot Topic… everywhere you go, Harry Potter merchandise is available, and it seems to be selling really well, and they’ve got all kinds of partnerships with Pottery Barn and… you name it, they’ve got a partnership. So I feel like they recognize that Harry Potter merchandise sales are still strong, so strong that they could create a flagship store in New York, and it’ll be really successful because they know people still really want to buy the merchandise. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you see one of these in Chicago’s Magnificent Mile, in San Francisco because Cursed Child is also there… anywhere Harry Potter fans are going, one of these could be opening up one day. More to come. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, just a reminder: We are running on a bit of a new schedule now. MuggleCast has been moved to Tuesday releases so we have more time to put our rubber ducks in a row and get the episode out to you reliably first thing Tuesday morning, so before you head out to work on Tuesday morning, check for MuggleCast; it will be there. That is our goal going forward. Also excited to announce a new Patreon benefit. We plan to announce a few later in the year, but one we can announce now: New patrons who sign up at Patreon.com/MuggleCast will get a personalized video message from one of the four cohosts. This is really exciting; we’re using a new tool that lets us easily see who our latest patrons are and then send you a personalized video message. We’re going to have a lot of fun with these, so pledge at any level to receive one of these video messages over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Eric, I would like you to do cosplay for some of your thank you videos. Can you do that?

Eric: [laughs] Well, maybe we’ll have a little option. People should choose whether I’m a Gryffindor or a Hufflepuff or Elvis Dumbledore for their video, and give that option.

Andrew: [laughs] And Laura, what can we have you do that would be fun?

Laura: Oh, gosh. I was thinking of making it almost like a Hogwarts acceptance letter, but a Patreon acceptance video.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Ooh, that’s a good idea.

Laura: Like, “Dear Mr… I don’t know, Sims. We’re pleased to inform you that you’ve been accepted at the School of Patreon and MuggleCast.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Podcasting wizardry.

Laura: Yeah, there we go.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s great. These are going to be fun because we actually take the time to make a message for each person, so I think it’ll be exciting for people to check these out, so we’ll have fun with that. Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get that and a lot more, including the chance to cohost MuggleCast one day, like Megan is today. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, we have a returning sponsor this week who’s here just in time for the new year.

[Ad break]

Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. Like I said, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Detention with Dolores,” and let’s start with our seven-word summary. Megan, you get to start. No pressure.

Megan: Okay. New…

Laura: Ooh… detention…

Eric: … arrives…

Andrew: New detention arrives… for…

Megan: … Harry…

Laura: … via…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … torture.

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: Wow, how pleasant.

Eric: That’s what it is, right? We can all kind of agree.

Laura: Oh, yeah. 100%.

Andrew: It is absolutely torture, for sure.

Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

Andrew: And before we dive into the play by play analysis here, I just wanted to ask about Chapter 13 in general. Do you guys think – because this is a horrific chapter because of what Umbridge does to Harry – do we think Rowling purposely planned for such a permanent addition to Harry’s hands to occur in Chapter 13? Do you think she was like, “I need to do something really bad”? Well, “I’m going to do something really bad to Harry; let me do it specifically in Chapter 13.”

Laura: Yeah, I think so, because we have some wonderful notes here, actually, that indicate that the 13th chapter of each book contains some kind of major event for Harry that tends to be a bit unlucky. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, so I went through each Chapter 13. As I was doing this, though, I was thinking like, “Something bad happens to Harry in literally every chapter ever,” so maybe…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, that’s true.

Andrew: In Sorcerer’s Stone, Harry is worried about Snape refereeing the Quidditch match. Chamber of Secrets – this is a big one – Tom Riddle’s diary is discovered. That’s pretty unlucky. Prisoner of Azkaban: Gryffindors win a Quidditch match, so that one, not unlucky.

Laura: Well, in that chapter, though, that is when Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle all dress up as Dementors and come onto the Quidditch pitch to try and throw Harry’s game, because he’s already had trouble with that.

Andrew: Okay. But he soldiers through and still wins it, so that’s good. Goblet of Fire: This was a big one. Trelawney makes predictions. She, as usual, says that death comes ever closer, and then she claims Harry was born midwinter, and that’s not true. And while he wasn’t, Voldemort was, and Harry is a Horcrux, so maybe she was sensing the Horcrux within Harry. That’s something that you only realize after getting through the rest of the series. In Half-Blood Prince, we dive into the memory in which Dumbledore invites Tom Riddle to Hogwarts. You could argue that was unlucky.

Laura: Well, yeah, we saw Tom Riddle’s whole tragic childhood. And this is such a cool, I think, connecting the threads between Half-Blood Prince and Chamber of Secrets, because when Harry goes into Tom Riddle’s diary, one of his observations is how similar the two of them are; he really identifies with Tom Riddle. And then we get to see Tom Riddle’s background, and they both have this equally tragic childhood.

Eric: Yeah, and the diary was purchased in a Muggle shop in London, I think, which is a little clue of Tom Riddle’s origins.

Andrew: And then finally, in Deathly Hallows, the trio enter the Ministry, and Harry hexes Umbridge, so that’s a good one to bring up in light of what happens in this chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Some sweet revenge.

Eric: Yeah. But otherwise, the chapter picks up right where the last one left off. It’s right after Harry and McGonagall and the biscuits, which is a really nice scene, but Harry is encountering a lot of whispers, not even behind his back anymore. When he goes into the Great Hall, people are openly gawking, staring, speaking, and Harry really takes umbrage at that, and it’s Hermione who has to say, “Harry, you don’t know what it’s like. The Ministry has been smearing you, the Daily Prophet has been smearing you, and this is what that looks like.” I do want to ask the question, as always, what could Dumbledore have done to prevent this backlash?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: A question that could be asked in any chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: What could Dumbledore have done, and why didn’t he do it? Yeah, I think he should have made another statement to the school, because he’s seeing these kids have these inaccurate views of Harry, and it’s not healthy for Harry; it’s not healthy for the school; it’s not healthy for these students to be misled.

Eric: It’s just this chapter in particular, especially because of what happens with Umbridge and Harry, I always… I’m just like, man, it’s a real shame that Dumbledore has employed a policy of no talky-talky to Harry, because they should be hand in hand on some of these issues.

Andrew: Yeah, and what’s something we learn when we grow up? We should be open about our feelings. We should be open about things. Let it out there. There’s this wall between them, and it’s not good for either of them. Well, mainly for Harry. But I also did want to ask, do we blame the students for not believing Harry and Dumbledore? Because if we put ourselves in their shoes, they didn’t see Voldemort. They’re reading these reports in the Daily Prophet.

Laura: Yeah, and also, much like Seamus, they’re parroting their parents. They’re parroting what they’ve heard at home all summer, and that’s just what kids do. I mean, we see this in the real world all the time. I mean, I think we’ve all encountered somebody who says something that’s a little bit out of left field, and you’re like, “Oh, you heard that at home, didn’t you?” And it’s not the child’s fault. Hopefully as they’re progressing throughout their education and getting closer to coming of age, they begin thinking for themselves, which we see that transition later. But no, it’s not their fault.

Megan: If it was me, I don’t know if I would straight up believe Harry. I wouldn’t want to put blind trust in him, just because he just came back with Cedric’s dead body. I would ask questions like, “How did he die?” instead of just, I don’t know, believing the Ministry, like, “Oh, nothing happened.” So I would at least question it, even if I didn’t outright believe Harry without anything.

Eric: I wonder if the outburst from Harry really prompted Umbridge to, I don’t know, prepare an actual line about what happened to Cedric Diggory. We were talking about this last episode, but also for the rest of her classes, because she’s the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for every level at Hogwarts, so she could very easily reach all the students within the next week or so to really, I don’t know, ease some tensions? It’s a good opportunity for Dumbledore to say something again because this is an area where Umbridge has just failed to provide answers. Maybe Dumbledore really could say something, and he wouldn’t need to talk to Harry to do it. He could just get up on the podium, make an announcement, and have that be that. “There will be no further questions at this time. It really happened. That’s my stance.”

Andrew: Yeah. I will play devil’s advocate against myself and the rest of you now, though, because now that Umbridge is in the school, I don’t think he can do this. Umbridge would stop it somehow. She would step up right after he was talking – she would “Heh-hem” her way into the speech – and say, “Everything that Dumbledore is saying is not true.” She would do something to disrupt the message that Dumbledore was trying to spread.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And to that point, I also think that Dumbledore is not unaware of all of the happenings over the summer. I mean, the Daily Prophet has been smearing him. He was booted out of the Wizengamot, so he understands what it looks like. And I think from an optics standpoint, it could just end up coming across to people who were already predisposed to think he’s crazy to think, “Oh, here goes grandpa again.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Kooky grandpa spreading his nonsense.

Eric: Yeah. I think Dumbledore does have to be careful, to your point, about his disobedience. He has to really toe the line in his own way, because it’s a very precarious position that we find him in. We know that the Ministry removes him later this year, so he can definitely sense the wind going. But speaking of disobedience, it was just this morning that Hermione, with Ron cowering in a chair somewhere, had to go up to Fred and George and tell them off about their experiments on children, but when Harry and Hermione go up to the Gryffindor common room, what should they see except Fred and George with a bunch of young kids, first years or so, coming in, and they’re passing out Fainting Fancies. This is way over the top, as far as I’m concerned. This is a moment where Fred and George, who I normally love, completely lost me, because we know they like to break the rules, but this is a direct affront – at this point, it’s personal – between them and Hermione. Hermione is trying to protect the children of Gryffindor. She’s trying to protect, really, pretty much everybody besides Fred and George from getting into trouble, and they’ve just so blatantly disregarded her.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s because they know they can get away with it. They know they can push their luck, at least. They know Ron is not going to approach them; they’re hoping that Hermione doesn’t try to approach them, and they just aren’t scared of Ron and Hermione, so they just go for it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: So Hermione… they really activated her trap card here. “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll write your mother.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and that was brilliant. I think, Eric, you had a point about this, though, that it’s not below the belt? I think it is below the belt. They are scared of their mother. They know a Howler could be sent, and they don’t want to face that, or another summer… I guess they could live on their own at this point, but they don’t want to face their mother’s wrath. And maybe they’re also considering the fact that their mother is pretty fragile right now.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: If you think back to what happened at 12 Grimmauld Place… they don’t want to upset her. They don’t want to stress her out more than she already is because of course, deep down, they care about their mother and they don’t want to hurt her, so to think that their mother might be hurt by this mischief that they’re up to, that hurts.

Eric: So what makes it below the belt? I think it’s perfectly fair. I think it puts what they’re doing in perspective.

Laura: Agree.

Eric: I mean, well, and Hermione only totes it out as a matter of last resort because she’s asked Ron to join her multiple times. “Ron, you coming? Ron, you…?” He says, “I think you got this,” whatever, whatever. He shrinks away. And she even asked them, and then they say that it’s okay because they’re paying the students who are volunteering, and I’m thinking two things. One, I’m thinking, does that make it okay? Because Harry, who’s watching the whole thing from across the room, instinctively feels like they didn’t properly tell the kids what they’d be getting into. They seem to be confused when they wake up from their fainting, and so Harry is like, “Yeah, they definitely didn’t tell people.” And then second, whose money are they using to pay these kids, by the way, for their being test subjects? Is it part of the thousand Galleons? Because I think that Harry probably wouldn’t enjoy seeing his money used in that way.

Andrew: No, probably not. [laughs]

Eric: So it’s just very problematic, and so I feel like Hermione needed to put a stop to it. She was getting zero support from Ron, and slightly more support – but not much – from Harry, and I think that bringing in their mother was the only thing she could do reasonably to get it to stop.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: Short of taking a hundred points from Gryffindor House, which affects everybody.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, Fred and George do mention that they’ve already tested all the products on themselves just to make sure that they’re not poisonous or detrimental in any way, but what if one of these kids had some kind of allergy?

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Exactly. Testing them on themselves does not mean that these things are safe, because as you say, Laura, other bodies can have different reactions to these treats.

Eric: And just the previous chapter, they said there’s no cure for the Nosebleed Nougat.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Just bleed out.

Eric: Yeah, they just bleed out. You shrivel up, he says.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So I honestly think that maybe they haven’t been testing all of them on yourselves. But the point about the allergy is the good one, so I’m glad, at least for now, it seems like Fred and George are having their, I don’t know, regular cavalier processes put into check. But if Hermione didn’t do it, nobody would be doing it.

Andrew: No.

Eric: And we mentioned this last… Micah, I think, mentioned this last week as well, but where are the Head Boy? Where are the Head Girl? Who are they? Presuming they’re here to put a stop to it. But really, Fred and George are running rampant. It’s kind of… for me, seeing them usually brings a smile to my face, and this time, it was the opposite. I was like, “These guys actually kind of suck right now, because this is the last thing any of us need.”

Andrew: That’s why Micah isn’t here this week, by the way; he went to go look for the Head Boy and Girl.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And he’s also going to try… he’s going to sample some biscuits over in England while he’s over there. He’s really curious.

Eric: It’s funny, though, because I also turn on a dime when it comes to thinking about Hermione in this chapter, because very next, she comes back to where Ron and Harry are sitting and starts pulling out these hats that she’s been knitting for the house-elves. [laughs] And this is a point where I can’t get with Hermione on this. She is deliberately hiding these hats underneath rubbish that we know the house-elves are the ones who clean up, tidy up around here. She is attempting to free Hogwarts elf labor without doing it through the proper channels. This is a guerrilla campaign to free them.

Andrew: Right, right, and that’s the problem. That seems below Hermione to try and free them in this way. Why not go to Dumbledore or McGonagall and put on a presentation on why these house-elves should be freed and how Hogwarts can still run without the house-elves? Her mission is good; I don’t think anybody wants to fault her for freeing the house-elves. However, the way she’s going about it is all wrong. And then it also seems below Hermione to assume that this plan is actually working, because it’s noted multiple times that these hats are disappearing very frequently, and she can barely keep up with the demand for these hats, but of course, as we learn later, it’s been Dobby who’s taking them all because the house-elves are insulted by somebody trying to free them.

Eric: [laughs] She actually is doing more work for Dobby because he’s the only one who’ll go near the Gryffindor common room.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Eric: But actually, even though that’s a funny development, and we learn it later, it brings up the question: Would this actually work? If the house-elves were to pick up clothes… we assume they do the laundry, right? I mean, we assume they do Hogwarts students’ robes all the time, so they pick up clothes. These are clothes. I guess the magical… or I don’t know if it’s magical or not, but the intention behind these clothes is to free them, so that would change. But I would tend to think Dumbledore would be the only person who could give a sock to an elf and have it mean anything.

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: And also, he would have to personally deliver it. I mean, Chamber of Secrets is a perfect example. Harry tricks Lucius Malfoy into freeing Dobby by placing… what was it, a sock? In the diary, and then he sort of thrusts it at Dobby. So he is literally giving Dobby clothes at that point, but leaving clothes around for an elf to pick up is not the same thing, and I’m actually kind of surprised that Hermione thought this would work.

Megan: I was going to say, because they have the elves later insulted by it, where Hermione would just put out clothes and put garbage on top, and then she thinks… I don’t know, kind of playing off their… I don’t know, stupidity? If she thinks trying to trick them into picking it up, but they see it right away and they’re too smart for that, so they’re kind of insulted by it.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: That’s a really good point because she doesn’t… even though her heart, we agree, is in the right place, she’s not respecting their intelligence enough to really come up with a better solution.

Laura: How about the fact that literally every service that’s provided to you at the school is from slave labor? So maybe you boycott eating in the Great Hall.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Maybe you do your own damn laundry.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I don’t see Hermione refusing to take advantage of the slave labor. She’s just complaining about it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I can see Hermione going on a hunger strike and also leading teams of people down to the lake and showing them, educating them, how to hand wash your laundry.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: She comes from a Muggle family; I’m sure that at one point she’s cleaned clothing in a sink or something, so she could really be much more effective than she is. I think this is a moment of very economical character development from the point of J.K. Rowling to have her do this, but it raises, I think, a lot of questions, and chief among them being, don’t the house-elves serve at the pleasure of the headmaster? Wouldn’t he have to free them? Without having a conversation with Dumbledore, she can’t hope to actually attain her goal.

Andrew: I just chalk this up to a kid being a kid. This is something Hermione would look back at later and just go, “What was I thinking?” And now that she’s the Minister for Magic, maybe she could make a difference in Hogwarts in terms of the house-elves being there.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: I was going to say also, I think to Hermione’s credit, she is fighting an uphill battle here. Nobody takes SPEW seriously. I mean, even Harry and Ron, who I would say are good, relatively moral people, have treated it like, “Oh, this is Hermione’s little cause; we don’t really indulge her on it all that much,” and it comes across kind of crazy in the context of this world where house-elf slave labor is just normal.

Eric: Here’s the comparison I’ll draw: veganism and meat-eating. We needed something. We needed an alternative that was easy, like the Impossible Burger. Now you can go to Burger King and get the Impossible Burger.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Before that, you might have hated animal cruelty, you might have hated the beef industry and what it’s doing for carbon emissions and all this other stuff, but it’s like, “Oh, become vegan, or start eating more plant-based food, and get rid of meat? Cut out meat? How am I going to do that? How on earth would I even begin?”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, things had to exist. The method had to be put in place first. People need to be given the alternatives, shown the alternate method, and it needs to be, unfortunately, as easy as possible for them to switch in order for them to stop. And Hermione needs to… I mean, I guess in order for it to work easier, should have shown people the alternative to using the elf labor at Hogwarts.

Andrew: That’s a great point.

Laura: Which should be easy. The alternative is magic.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah!

Laura: We’ve seen that Mrs. Weasley uses magic to cook. You can use magic to cook. You can use magic to wash your clothing. I mean, if people were able to vanish their poo away…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … you can’t tell me that you couldn’t just magic your clothes clean without having to physically wash them.

Andrew: So that’s what Hermione should have done, an after hours class where she teaches people how to clean their own clothes, how to make their own food, and do everything else that the house-elves currently do.

Eric: And if you don’t want to politicize it, you don’t need to say, “This is to free the elf labor” and all this stuff, but it’s making people independent for the future, when odds are, as soon as they leave Hogwarts, they’re not going to have elf labor doing all these things for them.

Andrew: That’s a good point, too. Yeah, like, “You’d better get ready for the real world.”

Eric: So I think we’ve solved it, you guys. I think we’ve… [laughs]

Andrew: We did, absolutely.

Eric: So we actually have a really good Care of Magical Creatures class, and I’ve just got to say: I know that Harry is sad about Hagrid, but it’s really refreshing in this chapter to get a class that seems perfectly conceived, well-executed, and bottomline, interesting, right? With no catch. We learn about Bowtruckles.

Andrew: Fascinating, and it feels like an Easter egg in hindsight because Bowtruckles take center stage in Fantastic Beasts.

Eric: [laughs] They do, yeah. And we learn that they’re tree guardians, that they live mostly around wand trees, particularly the trees with which Ollivander finds wandwoods. And he has to be a pretty skilled wizard, we learn, because Bowtruckles have really razor-sharp pointy bits, and also get very defensive of defending their home, so it’s kind of… it made me really appreciate Ollivander, learning more about Bowtruckles.

Andrew: Yeah. And Megan, you found some pretty interesting information about Bowtruckles, right?

Megan: Yeah, I think in the book it says they eat woodlice and then fairy eggs, and this stood out to me because I realized I didn’t know much about fairies in the Harry Potter universe, so I did a little research. They’re mentioned a few times in Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire for decorations, particularly at the Yule Ball; when Hagrid and Madame Maxime were having their conversation, she gets up and swarms of fairies rise up around her. And then in the Fantastic Beasts book, it says they can lay up to 50 eggs at a time on the underside of leaves in those wand trees, and that there are two types: They’re either conjured by wizards for decoration, like we’ve seen, or found in woodlands.

Andrew: Interesting. I wonder if all these little pieces of Fantastic Beasts were a signal that J.K. Rowling was really interested in creating a whole other story this early on, even while writing Order of the Phoenix. Because I think about Bowtruckles, I think about these Newt references in the previous chapter…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s like J.K. Rowling was itching to go this direction. And she did say it later on that like, “If I was going to write another story, this was going to be the one, because I do feel most passionate about it.” So we do see some hints of it here.

Eric: Yeah, and Grubbly-Plank has a good humor about it. She’s teaching the class. She says, “If angered they will gouge out human eyes with their fingers, which, as you can see, are very sharp and not at all desirable near the eyeballs.” She’s a great teacher, you guys. She’s humorous. She’s informative. And the lesson is to take a Bowtruckle – carefully – and just draw, after close enough inspection… look at it long enough that you can draw a sketch and label or identify the body parts. She’s doing this with live beasts; it’s not like they had to dissect a toad and do this or anything like that. And in fact, Harry loses his; it goes off into the woods. [laughs] But I think that it’s just a really good class and evidence that whatever hole Grubbly-Plank lives in when Hagrid is the teacher, she should be full-time all the time.

Andrew: And was that J.K. Rowling’s goal, to make her an attractive teacher so we as a reader don’t really miss Hagrid too much? [laughs] Or maybe the students.

Laura: I think it’s intended to generate internal conflict, because you’re very much like Harry in this instance, where you’re like, “Oh, I love Hagrid, and I care about Hagrid. Oh, but she’s actually a better teacher.”

Andrew: [laughs] Right, right. Also, I will just say I think she has the worst name out of any Harry Potter character in the series. “Grubbly-Plank.” Like, J.K. Rowling was thinking of a name for this teacher; she’s like, “Okay, Professor Grubbly. I don’t know; that’s not dumb enough. I need to add a second name to this professor’s last name. I know – Plank.”

Laura: It just makes me think of a moldy piece of wood.

Andrew: I just think of a pirate walking on a plank out to their death.

Laura: [laughs] Well, speaking of Bowtruckles, rereading this was really interesting to me because I feel like I had forgotten that they can actually inflict real physical harm, because in Fantastic Beasts, they’re kind of cute, you know? And I don’t know; I just wonder if we’re going to see more of the dark side of Bowtruckles moving forward.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Fantastic Beasts and the Dark Side of the Bowtruckle, coming November 2022.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We’re going to get an evil Bowtruckle, like evil C-3PO.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just a black Bowtruckle, maybe a little bigger. Yeah, Newt carries this thing in his pocket where the Bowtruckle could easily access his eyeballs…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … so that does sound pretty dangerous.

Eric: Newt is a badass.

Andrew: He must have a really good relationship with the Bowtruckle, because I wouldn’t want to risk that.

Eric: Well, wasn’t it that Pickett was picked on by the other Bowtruckles? He’s like the Rudolph of the Bowtruckles?

Andrew: Ohh.

Megan: Aren’t his hands like leaves, so they don’t have the sharp twigs?

Eric: He’s been maybe neutered.

Laura: [laughs] Oh my God.

Andrew: They’ll never make the Bowtruckle evil because it is a product they could sell in the flagship Harry Potter store, and if it’s evil, nobody will buy it.

Eric: Wait, wait, wait. You’re wrong, because Death Eater stuff sells all the time like hotcakes.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. So the Bowtruckles start appealing to the dark Harry Potter fans who…

Eric: But I like that Pickett has leaves for hands, because he’s a man of peace and not a man of war.

Andrew: Hey, man. Peace and love, peace and love.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Also, from the description in the book, I envision the Bowtruckles to be larger than how Pickett is depicted in the films, so maybe he’s like the runt of the litter.

Andrew: Maybe, yeah. I suppose they had to make Pickett small enough to fit into Newt’s pocket, so that could be a factor. Because it is cute seeing…

Eric: Well, I always imagine… walking sticks, aren’t they called? The bugs that you literally think they’re part of a leaf or part of a tree?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I think about those a lot. But Harry does openly ask, “What’s with Hagrid?” And Grubbly-Plank, I think, directly answers that “It’s none of…” I forget exactly what happens, but Malfoy overhears, of course. And actually, this is a very weird, unexpected moment for Draco to come and make fun of Harry, but he really lays on thickly that Hagrid is up to something big…

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: … and also might have been injured. We know that this is true, both of those things. How does Malfoy know?

Andrew: I think you have an idea, Megan.

Megan: Yeah, I just looked ahead at later in the book when Hagrid is telling this story. There was the old Gurg that got thrown out, and the new Gurg had told the Death Eaters about Hagrid and Madame Maxime, so he knew that Macnair, one of the Death Eaters, was looking around the mountains for them, so that probably got back to the Malfoys at some point.

Andrew: Yeah, and it must really suck for Harry to know that Malfoy knows more than he does. Malfoy is more in the know thanks to his father, while Harry’s father, so to speak – Dumbledore – is not talking to him or giving him any info at all.

Eric: Yeah, it’s an opportunity for Harry to feel pretty left out, which… there’s kind of a tonic to that, which is this resilience of his friends to really come together. And I’ve written… what happens next? I think Luna Lovegood is Harry’s best friend right now, definitely his fiercest ally. They’re going to Herbology, and Luna comes out the door, sees him, goes right up to him, and says, “I believe you,” and says that “I believe this happened, and I believe in you.” And he doesn’t know what to expect; he’s too busy thinking, “Oh, I’d rather have sane people believing me and say this,” but that was a hell of a thing, can we just acknowledge, for Luna to do.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. I mean, think about when you’re low in life and maybe you don’t want to talk about the things that are going on, and a good friend of yours – or an acquaintance, like Luna would be at this stage – just comes up to you and says, “I believe you.”

Eric: But even Hermione throws shade on Luna, and she again mentions the Quibbler, and she says that Harry can do much better than Luna. And I’m thinking, “Girl, are you reading the same book we’re reading?” Because we’re talking about the Daily Prophet smearing Harry, and here’s the Quibbler, an alternative that isn’t government-run, and you’re going to trash it because, what, it’s not, I don’t know, popular? Or it’s not official? Or it’s not…? Her problem… I think that we found an area of hypocrisy for Hermione here in the way that she initially treats Luna.

Laura: Yeah, agreed. She’s not seeing the value in allyship, right? Allyship does not mean that you necessarily believe all the same things as the person that you’re attempting to ally with, but it shows that you believe their experience, and it normalizes that belief. And the fact that Luna is… she doesn’t care what people think she is, and she very much uses her own head, which is something the vast majority of the student body is not doing right now. So I agree, Hermione is definitely overlooking the importance of Harry having an ally so strong that they would, in front of the whole student body, loudly proclaim, “I believe you.” And then that opens the door for Ernie Macmillan to come up and do the same thing.

Eric: Yep. I mean, it’s a snowball effect, and it’s a really lovely thing. Luna just did the right thing. This is what you need to hear, and Harry is a little not smart enough to realize it, but he needed to hear this. And then also in this chapter, Angelina Johnson is kind of a jerk to Harry, so he really needs as many friends as he can get. Angelina is holding Quidditch tryouts. This is obviously something that Harry would innately want to be a part of, but he can’t because of detention, and he is a little hesitant to tell her. And really, this is the point where we get to the namesake part of the chapter, “Detention with Dolores.” I guess I’m trying to read back, or trying to remember when I was 15 and reading this book for the first time, what I expected out of detention.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, what’s pivotal here is that before this chapter, you just see Umbridge as an annoying teacher who’s mean. It’s another Snape. But then once you see what she does to Harry in this chapter, she goes from that to just pure evil. To force a student to cut themselves again and again over a period of four days and not stop until he is bleeding to her satisfaction, that is pure evil. So the first time we read this, I think you’re just seeing her as another Snape, and then once you get through that, you’re like, “Wow. Yep, she goes beyond Snape. She is a horrible human being.” And this is just the beginning.

Eric: I think that’s a good point. I think that this chapter very quickly sets her apart from even Snape. Yeah, yeah, I think you’re exactly right on that. But I have to laugh, because Harry is woefully unprepared to handle this situation. He does the best he can in terms of bearing the pain; he says he won’t give her the satisfaction of seeing him openly wince, really. But he does go to the first detention and say, “Hey, can I have off Friday?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And I’m thinking this is clearly… there’s no universe in which this would have worked.

Andrew: No, and probably not for any teacher, because as Umbridge brings up, the point of detention is to take you away from things you would be doing otherwise, especially something that might be really meaningful to you. And it’s to teach you a lesson that if you didn’t screw up, you could have been at that Quidditch tryout, but you’re not because you messed up, so don’t mess up again.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s interesting that it just ends up that Harry can see the pitch from the window, and he’s able to pretty much figure out most… he’s able to basically catch tryouts anyway, which is a weird choice, but kind of fortunate. But really, on that line, I don’t think Umbridge is wrong. It’s just on the actual detention process.

Andrew: So what do we make of this actually happening at Hogwarts? Umbridge torturing a student like this? And I really have to give it to Harry to not even wince during this, because I would. I’d be screaming.

Eric: I question how the quill was first conceived, why it exists. This is not something that Umbridge made. It’s something she procured, surely, but why would something like this even exist? Is this one of those medieval torture methods that Filch keeps wanting to bring out?

Andrew: This does sound medieval.

Laura: Yeah, I think also, as I was reading this, I was like, “Does Dumbledore really not know that this is happening?” I just… we always hear that Dumbledore knows what’s going on in the school.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So I’m like, “Do you know?” And just… are you doing the whole “For the greater good” thing, and just being like, “Well, sorry, Harry; just gotta live with it”?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Is this for the greater good? Could one argue that?

Eric: If he draws the line at Trelawney not being able to be physically removed from the school, why is he allowing his students to be mutilated? Especially Harry.

Megan: I feel like he would know. Does he ever find out about this later? I can’t remember.

Andrew: I don’t think so.

Megan: And I don’t think it’s like in the movie where everyone does it; everyone gets detention like this. I think it’s just Harry.

Andrew: Yeah. If I were Harry, I definitely would tell Dumbledore and Umbridge at some point… well, obviously Harry runs out of time with Dumbledore by the end of the next book, but maybe tell McGonagall at some point, like, “Hey, this was happening at Hogwarts. Can you make sure this never happens at the school again, please?”

Eric: Harry just… it’s so interesting how internally Harry takes this task. He sees it as Umbridge in a… it’s a personal attack on him. The line he has to write is, “I must not tell lies. I must not.” And it’s a personal confrontation between him and Umbridge over the sanctity of the truth, of telling the truth. And I think that he really just internal… he makes it a personal war. And he knows that if he goes to his Head of House, or goes to Dumbledore, or goes to Madam Pomfrey, that they might take the appropriate actions and stop her from doing this, but he doesn’t want to give what he sees as the satisfaction to Umbridge of having to be rebuked. He’s like, “I will bear this. Do your worst.” And I think that’s so heroic of Harry, despite we really feel bad for him.

Andrew: Yeah. Another sad thing about this is something that I brought up at the end of last week’s episode: Those scars stick with Harry for the rest of his life. You still see them on his hands in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, and when you’re watching it from far back in the theater, you probably won’t even notice. But if you look at publicity photos of the actual show, you see the scars on his hands. And I guess they made a point to include those, because it speaks to the darkness that is still within Harry. You don’t see those in the movie after Movie 5, right?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I mean, that stuff is gone, so they must have put those on just to, like I said, make a point about things still disturbing Harry even in his later years.

Laura: It does make me wonder has Hogwarts protocol changed at all since the trio went? Are they confident when they send their kids to school? Like, “Yeah, this is going to be fine.”

Andrew: Right, you would be uncomfortable, wouldn’t you? Well, I guess knowing that McGonagall is running the show might assure them.

Megan: It’s no longer a security nightmare.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Right. It’s all over. Dumbledore is out. Good times to be had at Hogwarts now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I don’t know. I would, Laura, send my kid there and keep a close eye on things that are happening. I would maybe write to them and be like, “Hey, is everything okay? How are things going? Are the staircases still moving? Are the house-elves still there? Is McGonagall actually monitoring everything that’s going on? Are you aware of any Dark magic or Dark items?”

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I also feel like culturally in the wizarding world, there’s just this sort of tacit acceptance that this is just the way things are.

Andrew: [laughs] Just deal with it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s just normal.

Andrew: Welcome to Hogwarts. Things will always be messed up.

Eric: I mean, it eventually gets worse, with Alecto and Amicus performing spells on the kids, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: I think anything from there is… it can only go up.

Andrew: Yeah, that was definitely rock bottom. No, but I would actually argue that after the events of Deathly Hallows, things got a lot better at the school. I bet they’ve made a lot of changes. You think about, like I said, McGonagall running the show; then you have Hermione as the Minister for Magic. I think they would both work together to create a safer environment at Hogwarts. I say this, and now people are going to bring up stuff in the Cursed Child that happened that are probably security nightmares.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, most of that happened in Harry’s fourth year, so it doesn’t count.

Andrew: True, true.

Eric: So we all agree Umbridge sucks. She will continue to suck. I don’t think anything she does is more horrendous than this, though.

Andrew: No, I think you’re right.

Eric: I think that this is not only the first most shocking thing that she does, but it allows… and it had to be shocking, right? It had to get all the readers on the side of, “Oh, this is an awful person,” so that we can relish her fall from grace and power. It’s a long time coming; it’s another seven or eight months before she’s gone. But it’s just unfortunate because this is actually very horrifying.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Eric: Yeah, but we find out the results of Quidditch, and Angelina made Ronald Weasley a Keeper. He’s a Keeper, everybody.

Andrew: He is a Keeper.

Eric: The great thing – and I appreciate Angelina’s bluntness – She says to Harry, “I know he’s your best mate, but he’s not fabulous. I think with a bit of training, he’ll be all right. He comes from a family of good Quidditch players. I’m banking on him turning out to have a bit more talent than he showed today.” This is good advice, and I think that she doesn’t specifically boil it down to nerves. We know Ron suffers from nerves and has that as a real problem, but I tended to forget that I think even Bill and Charlie were on the Quidditch team. At least one of them was a Beater; might have been Charlie, but now it’s Fred and George, obviously. And that’s a good reminder for me. “Oh yeah, Ron comes from a successful Quidditch family.” And we know Ginny eventually takes it professional.

Andrew: Right. The things she said about Ron are worth discussing, because he was not her favorite pick.

Eric: True.

Andrew: This kind of sucks, and I’m sure Ron isn’t aware of this, right? That he was… [laughs]

Eric: Right, yeah.

Andrew: Look, this happens, and I mean, how are people who suck supposed to get ahead in the world if they don’t occasionally run into opportunities like this?

Eric: Yeah, I don’t blame Angelina for this thought process. She’s letting Harry into it because she obviously trusts him. But ultimately, this choice… particularly Vicky, that she’s involved in all sorts of societies, and if training clashes, is going to choose those over Quidditch… you need somebody… as a captain, you really want to put – and this is just anybody as a hiring manager for a position – you want a candidate that’s going to put this position first, that cares about it. And I think with Ron, you at least have Fred and George, his brothers there to keep him in check for any bad temper moments, so it does make a lot of sense. I could just appreciate that. I mean, yeah, it sucks for Ron being third best, and if he knew that, he would never play, like you said. [laughs] But I think it really is smart decision-making on the part of Angelina here. He’s just got a golden opportunity to prove his worth. This is all that he ever wanted. It was in his Mirror of Erised, wasn’t it? Being a Quidditch captain or something? Being good at Quidditch?

Laura: And he proves himself later.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Good times. I believe that concludes our discussion of this chapter.

Andrew: Okay. So the Umbridge Suck count currently stands at 16, but we’re going to add four to the board today. Eric, do you want to go through them?

Eric: Yep, number one: being so cheerful about inflicting pain and devising this lesson plan in the first place. She is all smiles when Harry comes in, and that speaks to her sadistic nature. That’s really sick. So for coming up to this… also, when he first finds out what the quill does, she dictates that it’s going to last – each of these lessons is going to last – until it “sinks in” and until the words on his hand bleed more easily.

Andrew: Awful.

Eric: That, I felt…

Andrew: That’s worth two points. Put that too.

Eric: Yep, I agree. So relishing her… yeah, add two? Okay.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But this is kind of the same point, just relishing that it causes him pain. Her sadism… is that an extra one? Not an extra one? Who knows. But then I also added being inflexible with the detentions. So we know she has a point, but she really isn’t willing to meet Harry halfway here. She’s not even willing to meet him at all. She is the authoritarian. She’s laying down her duty, her authority, and so I thought that deserved a special suck as well.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: So I’d say add four, still.

Andrew: That special suck. I love a special suck.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right, so let’s add five. So that’s one…