Transcript #451 - MuggleCast

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #451, Murtlap Milkin’ (OOTP 15, The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)

Show Intro

[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we’re discussing Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” But first we have some more Muggle Mail, and actually, even before Muggle Mail, I just want to update everybody on last week’s discussion. We were talking about which Sirius in the fireplace was better, ember Sirius or flaming Sirius?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: As I am affectionately calling him this time around. We asked on Instagram, “Which version do you prefer?” And 38% preferred ember Sirius, while 62% preferred flaming Sirius. I’m actually surprised the results were that close to being split.

Eric: Yeah, that’s 1/3 and 2/3. That’s crazy.

Andrew: I mean, ember Sirius sucks.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Which one do you think Lupin prefers?

Andrew: Um, why does that matter? I’m thinking flaming Sirius.

Micah: I’m just throwing out questions.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Lupin has Sirius’s whole body because he’s next to him in Grimmauld Place, so he’s good.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true, yeah.

Eric: But yeah, ember Sirius, to me, just strikes me as being… the effects weren’t great, probably rushed, like you guys were saying. Flaming Sirius to me is the epitome of… that’s what that should look like. That’s what they’re going for.

Andrew: We got a great theory from Tyler. He wrote in,

“I really enjoyed this week’s episode and the discussion about Sirius in the fireplace. My theory is that for Goblet of Fire, they didn’t want to pay Gary Oldman for that small 30 second scene, so they just recorded his voice and recreated his face they best they could without filming him. I hate that they cut the big scene in Goblet of Fire with the three meeting him on a trip to Hogsmeade, but we know this would all be solved with a Harry Potter TV show. Andrew needs to prepare a pitch for WB. Thanks for all you guys do!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: What do you think? Is that true? They didn’t want to pay Gary Oldman for Goblet of Fire, so they just recreated him?

Laura: I mean, wouldn’t they have to pay him for his voice and his likeness?

Andrew: Probably. Well, but in theory, wouldn’t just recording his voice be cheaper than getting him into Leavesden and all that?

Laura: Eh, I think it’s more likely that Gary Oldman just wasn’t available.

Andrew: Oh. Yeah, maybe. I don’t buy into this theory necessarily, but it is a funny way to think of it, so thank you, Tyler. We also got an email from our social media manager, Jule, who emailed us just like I asked Pat to do when he had some feedback about what he heard on air. [laughs] Laura, do you want to read what Jule had to say?

Laura: Sure. Jule wanted to respond to the point that we mentioned about Hermione doing Harry and Ron’s homework for them. Jewel says,

“In Book 4 we see she is still very insecure about where she stands with them, so it doesn’t surprise me at all that she might sometimes feel the value she adds to the friendship is her ability to get them through their classes. When I was her age, I definitely let my classmates walk all over me by helping them with notes or homework or tests. It made me feel valuable, and I felt like it enabled my friendships. Of course, as I got older and realized how dumb this was, I found out who my real friends were, but at 15 I just wanted to be liked and that’s the way I went about it. So, here’s a message to young listeners: Hermione is a great role model in many ways, but it takes her a while to learn that she doesn’t need to do her best friends’ homework for them to like her. They’ll be annoyed at first because they’re teenage boys, but her true friends will like her anyway!”

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: That’s a really great point, Jule.

Micah: You know what I’m taking away, though, from these emails? Is that Andrew, the only listeners we have are your boyfriend and our social media producer.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I think I’m setting up a bad culture at MuggleCast where people we know and love can’t approach us with feedback. I think I’m regretting telling people we know and love to write in. I’m sorry. You guys can approach us again; talk to us face to face. I apologize. HR is going to come after me.

Laura: Hypable has HR?

Andrew: Yeah, do you have any problems you would like to speak to them about?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: We’ve hired this really delightful woman named Dolores; she’s in charge.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: The Hypable High Inquisitor.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: God. Educational Decree number 42: Don’t talk to us face to face. Email us if you have any feedback about the show. Well, a couple of our listeners also called in.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Janelle. I have a theory relating to Episode 450. When Fred gives Katie the Blood Blisterpod at Quidditch practice, I always thought that he did it on purpose and that his look of horror was fake. In a previous chapter, I believe, it said that Fred and George were having trouble coming up with an antidote or a way to stop the nosebleeds. I think he gave it to Katie on purpose, so that way they could go with her to Madam Pomfrey to see what she used to stop the nosebleed, then they could use that in their Blood Blisterpod. Let me know what you guys think. Love the show.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: I love that theory.

Laura: Me too. And Janelle, I also love your audio quality!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That was such a beautifully recorded voice memo, but also, great theory.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: That is something that Fred and George would absolutely do.

Eric: I agree. But I think they could do it without Katie, right? I mean, they could just try it on one of themselves, like they say they do, and then go to Madam Pomfrey and say, “Hey, how would you fix this?”

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah.

Laura: Don’t we think Madam Pomfrey might be kind of wise to that, though? Maybe they’re using Katie because they know Madam Pomfrey will attend to her, whereas if one of them were to go in, I’m sure she’s gotten wind of them testing their products on first years, and so while she might patch them up, of course, but I don’t think that she would let them in on the secret of how to do so.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Devious.

Andrew: “What did you guys do now? And no, I’m not going to help you come up with a solution.”

Eric: “It was our brother, ma’am. He hit her with a Quaffle.”

Andrew: [laughs] And here’s another voicemail from another Laura.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast. I just wanted to send in a quick correction about last week’s episode. When Harry was in the owlery, Filch came in and accused him of mailing Dungbombs or stink bombs, and it was actually Umbridge that tipped him off. Hermione, later in the book, reveals that she was really suspicious of that because she thought that that was kind of a weird thing for another student to accuse Harry of, and she believes that it was a way for Umbridge to go through Harry’s mail – or students’ mail – early on before she could do it as High Inquisitor. So I just wanted to give credit to Hermione for being super smart. Also last week, when you guys were reading Percy’s letter, Micah’s scary voice was both amazing and terrifying at the same time. Thanks, guys. Keep doing what you’re doing. Love you, bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Love you too, bye.

Micah: [in a deep, sinister voice] I have no idea what she’s talking about.

Laura: Oh, I do, because we were talking about… we were like, “Why is Filch…?” Oh, you’re talking about your voice, Micah.

Micah: I’m talking about my voice, yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m slow on the uptake here. But also, see, this actually was me sending in a voicemail to correct MuggleCast.

Andrew: You would. Yeah, I don’t know why we didn’t catch on to that. Everything happens for a reason in this series, so we should have caught on to that. Our apologies. Saturday morning brain.

Laura: I feel like that’s one of those things… we’re rereading the books, and we kind of catch on to things as we go through them, right?

Andrew: True that, true.

Micah: Yeah. But it’s next level, though, for Umbridge, really, this early on to be trailing Harry? We know she’s trying to goad him into getting detention – does it again in this chapter – but the fact that she’s really taking control of things, going through students’ mail, this is really government interference at its worst.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I’m impressed, but not surprised. She did start the year by sending Dementors to Little Whinging.

Laura: Very fair.

Micah: One other thing I thought about, too, with Janelle’s voicemail – not to go back – but I thought maybe the direction she was going to take it was that Fred and George gave Katie the Blood Blisterpod so that practice would end, because Ron was in just such a bad position with the Slytherins being there.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: That’s true.

Eric: So it was like a mercy killing.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: If you want to look at it that way, yeah, sure.

Andrew: That’s a good way to put it. Thanks to everybody who sent in feedback, and Laura, I will be putting you in touch with Hypable HR after today’s episode.

Laura: Great.

[Ad break]

Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and like I said, we are discussing Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” And we’ll start with our seven-word summary.

Micah: Umbridge…

[Eric sighs]

Micah: Look, this has got to be better than last week. Last week was terrible.

Laura: Yeah, last week was rough.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: … oversees…

Laura: … the…

Andrew: … Hogwarts…

Micah: … professors…

Eric: … teaching…

Laura: … classes.

Eric: Yay!

Laura: I mean…

Andrew: I was thinking “habits.”

Laura: Yeah, that works too.

Eric: “Styles” works.

Laura: Yeah. “Habits,” “styles,” “methods.”

Eric: “Students.”

Andrew: Yeah. It’s a really interesting chapter.

Laura: Ugh.

Micah: So if we were to grade the seven word-summary based on the OWL scores – we learn a lot about OWL scores, actually, this chapter – what would we give it?

Eric: Pass.

Micah: Just a simple P.

Laura: Yeah, I think I’d go with “Poor.”

Eric: Oh.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, Exceeds Expectations, because it was intelligible, and there were a lot of options left to us by the last word.

Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

Micah: So this week we’re going to take a little bit of a different approach to Chapter by Chapter. We’re not necessarily going to follow things in chronological order; I think that that’s something that we’ve done in the past. And we’ll make sure we hit on all the key points, but we really want to pull the meat out of the chapters and have the best possible discussion, so we’ll see how this goes.

Andrew: It’s going to go great.

Micah: Well, you planned it, so it has to.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: And what I really like about this chapter is there is so much Umbridge, and we are going to make sure that that Umbridge Suck count goes up quite a bit at the end of our discussion.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay, is that why you like that there’s a lot of Umbridge?

Micah: Yeah. What’s wrong with that?

Andrew: You just like seeing her do sick things, it sounds like?

Micah: What are you implying?

Andrew: That you’re messed up. Go on.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Andrew is like, “You’re sick, Micah! You’re sick!”

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve never heard somebody say, “Ooh, I like a chapter that’s filled with Umbridge.”

Laura: No, I get what Micah is saying; it pushes the story along.

Andrew: Got it.

Laura: It’s a much needed chapter in terms of pacing. I will say, as a former teacher, this chapter gave me so much PTSD.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Because you were evaluated?

Laura: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it’s pretty standard practice – especially when you’re in your early teaching career – to be observed, and even if the person doing the observing is doing everything right and not attempting to undermine you, it’s still a very nerve-wracking experience. And I have also had the experience of somebody who was directly interfering with my classroom environment…

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Laura: … so it’s not a fun place to be.

Andrew: It’d be like if J.K. Rowling was listening to this episode of MuggleCast, and we knew that she was listening. It would be very stressful, because we would want it to be perfect and get everything right.

Laura: Right.

Micah: Well, not anymore. We don’t care whether she listens or not.

Andrew: Ohh.

Micah: I don’t really care if she comes on the show.

Andrew: I still care.

Eric: I would be interested in seeing what OWL grade she gives the seven-word summary.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She would say, “Just stop doing that segment, please.”

Laura: “Troll.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: To answer your question, though, Andrew, it’s great to see Umbridge matched up against her peers in this chapter, and you really start to get the full sense as to why she is at Hogwarts. A lot of it prior to this has just been her interrupting Dumbledore, or her giving Harry detention, and there’s just much more to her that we get to see in this chapter, and so that’s what I meant when I said that.

Andrew: Got it.

Micah: “Enjoyed” is probably not the best word to use, but… and it starts off really kind of where we left off in the last chapter. And we finally get to see why Percy was so anxious for Ron to take a look at the Daily Prophet the following morning, and we learn that the Ministry is seeking educational reform and that Dolores Umbridge has been appointed the first ever High Inquisitor, and Percy is all over this article. I’m not quite sure why, because in my mind, there is no credibility to Percy being quoted in an article…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and speaking on behalf of the Ministry. He’s not the PR rep for Fudge.

Andrew: It is awkward, isn’t it? And don’t most people in the wider wizarding world…? They might know of the Weasleys; they’re a big family, right? They’re redheads; they’re the redheads in the wizarding world. So a lot of people probably know this family, and they probably know that a lot of the Weasley family members are on Team Harry, I would think.

Eric: Well…

Andrew: And so it’s awkward to read Percy going against his family.

Eric: He is the Junior Assistant to the Minister, so he is the mouthpiece, I guess, if you consider that there’s probably also a Senior Assistant to the Minister, and the Minister himself, and maybe a PR department. So this is the guy who’s the highest rung of the ladder that the Daily Prophet could get in a pinch that shared their views, and the Ministry also wants to look busy all the time. So this is a guy who’s really super close to the Minister, though it might be objectively a couple steps removed, but who can speak, who has the authority to speak in the way that they get him to.

Andrew: Really, it should be Fudge being interviewed for this article, though, I think.

Micah: I want to go off what you said, though, Andrew, because I like the idea of the Ministry and the Daily Prophet positioning a Weasley – when the Weasley family, as you said, has so long been supportive of Harry – right in mainstream media. Here’s a member of this family who is basically speaking out against Harry and against Dumbledore. It’s not a great look for the Weasley family.

Andrew: There’s a crack in the Weasley family. One’s gone rogue.

Micah: We also get to hear from some… anxious parents who have voiced their concern…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And Dumbledore haters.

Micah: … about what’s going on at Hogwarts, and the fact – Andrew, prepare yourself – that Hogwarts is… fill in the blank.

Andrew: A security nightmare! Woop-woop-woop!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, you don’t have the sound effect this week.

Andrew: I’m on the road. I don’t have the sound effect ready.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: But I’ll download it; hold on. I didn’t prepare that. But go on; I’ll play it later.

Micah: [laughs] And of course, they interview some of the best people that you possibly could for this article. One Lucius Malfoy, who we learn is 41 years old. That’s a odd piece of information that they dropped in there.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And he’ll appear…

Laura: Sidebar: All of these parents are so young.

Andrew: Yeah, they have their kids young.

Eric: Well, the war is on and all that.

Laura: [laughs] So you gotta get it on?

Eric: That’s directly lifted from another page of another Harry Potter book, for sure.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: There you go, Micah.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But yeah, the interesting thing here – and I know that this article is vaguely making some kind of attempt to be well-balanced – does not disclose that Mr. Lucius Malfoy, “concerned parent,” is a member of the Board of Governors for Hogwarts School. That is, to me, a conflict of interest if they don’t state it.

Andrew: And I’m also wondering how many anxious parents are there, really? There’s Lucius. There’s Seamus’s mother. It’s probably an exaggeration by the Ministry/the Prophet, right? That there are a bunch of anxious parents out there?

Laura: Yeah, I think this is a good example of “many people are saying this” without citing any kind of source or information.

Eric: It’s an excuse for the Ministry to respond as if these concerns were more mainstream.

Andrew: Right, and they interview the chief nemesis of Dumbledore. They didn’t have to look very far; they just needed one person, and Lucius was a very easy get.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: He was probably itching to do this.

Micah: And let’s not forget he’s also a Ministry employee, so now you’ve quoted two people that work within the Ministry about the situation.

Andrew: Right. Well, and then to Eric’s point, they don’t disclose that Lucius is a Ministry employee, but then a few paragraphs later, they quote Wizengamot elder Griselda Marchbacks, and they add right after her quote, “For a full account of her alleged links to subversive goblin groups, turn to page 17.” They’re immediately discrediting her.

Eric: Exactly. She’s the one who’s got some sense. She and Tiberius Ogden, whose name may be familiar to Harry Potter fans, both resigned in protest. How cool is that? Good for them.

Andrew: Yeah, but then they discredit her…

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: … because they did go against the Ministry.

Micah: I think it’s Marchbanks, just if we want to note that.

Andrew: Oh, did I type it wrong? Okay, sorry.

Eric: And what is a subversive goblin group, by the way?

Andrew: Yeah, I was wondering that as well.

Micah: So this is just an opportunity to seem fair and balanced but then immediately discredit the person by, as you said, being linked to subversive goblin groups, and I’m interested to get Laura’s thoughts here because this is a direct reminder, maybe, of certain media outlets in the United States that claim to be fair and balanced but truthfully are not. And the way that they go about it in this manner, on the surface, it seems like they are showing both sides of the story, but in truth they’re not, because they’re immediately trying to undermine that person a few sentences later.

Laura: Yeah, of course. Like you said, it’s the attempt to appear as though you’re being journalistic and you’re maintaining a level of integrity in your reporting, but by immediately referring to goblin groups as subversive… I wonder what those groups are. They’re probably groups about goblins’ rights or goblins being able to be treated like equal beings in the magical world, but in this world where goblins and house-elves are treated as lesser beings, that could be considered a subversive thought, especially looking at this particular group of people who are running things right now. So yeah, definitely very reflective of certain news outlets that exist now.

Eric: Something else that caught my eye during that was that she is also an elder. This is the news quickly scuttling away from her official title. In order to be an elder at the Wizengamot, you need to know your stuff, right? This is a very respectable position. It’s like saying longtime generals or longtime people in positions of authority for decades are lesser because of whatever other thing else they want to cook up.

Micah: But then they immediately turn around and tie her to these groups that are supposedly trying to undermine the authority of the Ministry. And let’s not forget that goblins are a group that has long been suppressed in many ways, and not unlike house-elves, they’ve essentially been forced to work in the banking industry and been treated very, very poorly. So I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody like Griselda Marchbanks was supportive of a group like the goblins and them advocating probably for their own rights.

Andrew: Another interesting part of this scene is we’re introduced to Educational Decrees, and they begin at number 22. Now, I looked around online; I couldn’t find the previous 21 Educational Decrees, and I’m wondering what they were. Does anyone remember anything about those? Did we ever hear anything?

Eric: Here’s the thing: so the Educational Decrees in this book, they become kind of a thing, right? There’s chapters named after them, and it’s a big “What’s the next one Umbridge will pass in her clear and rampant abuse of power?” The first 21 Educational Decrees, it used to be a method by which the government, the Ministry of Magic, could help Hogwarts. I assume one of those Educational Decrees was establishing the Board of Governors, something very innocent, something very just necessary for the running of school. Figuring out a budget, appropriating house-elves…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: A couple of… over the last thousand years that Hogwarts has existed, or over the last several hundred years that the Ministry has existed, they weren’t the same Educational Decrees of the like that you see in this book.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Eric: They were just probably bland, very innocent but necessary steps that the government just has to pass a resolution to be able to do this. But this is… what we’re seeing is the perversion of that in this book.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. They could have added some other Decrees, though, after what happened in Harry’s earlier years, like “No three-headed dogs shall be allowed on premises.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “No student shall be issued a Time-Turner,” or “Love potions shall not be used.”

Eric: Why is that, Andrew?

Andrew: Because it’s rape, love potions.

Laura: [laughs] I think Eric was hoping for some sound effects.

Eric: A sound clip.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: I was hoping for a… but okay, your answer was better, yeah.

Andrew: Sorry, I took that to a dark place.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Andrew, we don’t know, though. Perhaps those Educational Decrees were put into place and we just don’t know what they were, so it’s possible that some were created after Harry’s first or second or third year.

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be a great Pottermore article from J.K. Rowling, spelling out all the previous ones.

Eric: Hey, wait, now that we own Potter-no-more, we should write it.

Andrew: Oh my God, let’s just write all the articles we wish existed on Pottermore.

Laura: That would be hilarious.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, like “Students aren’t allowed to attend deathday parties.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Why Hogwarts is a security nightmare, by Andrew.”

Micah: “No more Triwizard tournaments.”

Eric: “Don’t listen to the plumbing. Don’t listen closely to the plumbing.”

Andrew: “Why there should be a Harry Potter TV show.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: This sounds like a great opportunity.

Andrew: It does.

Micah: Does it still redirect to Harry Potter Fan Zone?

Andrew: It does. Can we just have Andy publish these articles on his website? I don’t feel like setting up a whole new website, so… anyway…

Micah: It’s a good point.

Andrew: Also, we’ll point out just a little thing: 21 previous Decrees? 21 is a multiple of seven.

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: I see what you did there.

Andrew: 21 is 12 backwards, another big number in the Harry Potter series.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: All right.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling thought of these things, I know it.

Eric: You know the coolest thing? Real quick; this is a sidebar. How you can tell if a number is divisible by three?

Andrew: How?

Eric: If you add up the numbers individually as if they were single digit numbers, and that’s divisible by three, the whole number is divisible by three.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Eric: It’s real cool.

Micah: That was Eric’s educational moment, brought to you by…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: That was Educational Decree number 50, or whatever.

Eric: Nice, I have a new segment.

Micah: Is that divisible by three? It’s got to be divisible by three.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The focal point of this chapter, really, though, is Umbridge’s visits to each of the teachers’ classrooms, and this has to put the school on edge. Teachers are essentially on the chopping block. And Laura, you mentioned this earlier; gives you PTSD, thinking back to the times when you were teaching and there was somebody who was coming in to evaluate your abilities. But one thing I was wondering is, is there not already a system in place at Hogwarts to evaluate teachers? And is Umbridge even qualified to evaluate some of these subjects? She’s a terrible Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, so what makes us think that she can evaluate Charms or Potions or Transfiguration?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, she’s absolutely not qualified to be doing this, but I think it’s a fair point to observe that it doesn’t seem like there’s any kind of standardized program in place in order to ensure a certain minimum level of quality in these classes. I mean, I’m sorry, but look at Professor Binns; he puts his students to sleep. He’s using such an archaic teaching method, which is just lecturing straight at the class for an hour, two hours, and not initiating any kind of dialogue with the students. So I think it’s fair to say that Hogwarts could do with a little bit of observation, but not this. This is not anything that is helping the education of the students; this is all about the Ministry retaining a level of power above the educational institution, which, if we’re talking about real world scenarios, this has happened. I mean, when you have a tyrannical government in charge, one of the first targets is always educational institutions, because those are where so-called “subversive” ideas are born.

Micah: Great points. And you can see that a lot of these teachers are… the emotions and the reactions really run the gamut in terms of how they respond to Umbridge being in the classroom. But somebody like Trelawney, who we all know is a bit of a kook…

Andrew: [laughs] A kook.

Micah: … she is being put into a really challenging position, because if we think about her discipline and what it is that she’s trying to teach these students, the expectation level of somebody like Umbridge is so high in terms of what a professor like Trelawney can deliver, and I don’t personally think that it’s fair that she’s being asked to make a prophecy in that moment. It really kind of undermines her profession and her abilities as a Seer.

Andrew: Yeah, and as Trelawney brings up, “The Inner Eye does not see upon command,” and even though we think she’s a kook, we know that she’s right; she just can’t pull these predictions out of a hat. I also do feel really bad for Trelawney in this moment, because you can tell she’s nervous as soon as Umbridge walks in, and J.K. Rowling writes that she made a “brave attempt to speak in her mystic tones, though her voice shook slightly.” So she was visibly nervous, and I’m wondering if part of it is because she does know that she’s a fraud.

Eric: Yeah, and Umbridge does peg her as a fraud quite early on, and that’s why she asks her to predict something on the spot. But here’s the thing: Even if Trelawney were a real Seer, none of these students are, and so the class… there’s a little bit of a disconnect here between Divination, between being able to be a Seer and have prophecies and all that stuff, and then teaching Divination. She could have had just a straight-up class where she’s instructing all the students to read their tea leaves and actually gleaning something out of… right now, they’re going through dream diaries, and apparently that’s something that happens after Umbridge leaves where they go through Harry’s dream, but because Trelawney’s default is to predict danger – and she does it to Harry later in the chapter, again, after Umbridge leaves – she’s all about the doom that it spells, and this… because that’s her default. She’s clearly not a good teacher, but she could get by without having to make a real prediction. Her job as teacher of Divination is not to make real predictions, which is where Umbridge fails. Umbridge just wants to discredit her. The job should be teaching kids how to use these skills to give themselves a leg up in the art of their own fortunes.

Laura: You know what this makes me wonder? I wonder if Divination was a class at Hogwarts before Trelawney was assigned to the post. Because we know that Trelawney was only given this job so that Dumbledore could keep her close and safe, so I wonder if this was even really considered a discipline at Hogwarts, because it is something that is just… it’s so individual; so few people are born with the ability to See that it seems a little bit futile to try and teach people how to do something that’s just an innate ability, right? So I wonder if this is just an excuse; this is Dumbledore’s cover for why she’s there, and maybe it was never something that was taught before.

Eric: That’s really interesting.

Micah: But you can take your Divination OWL, can’t you? That would lend me to believe that it’s been around for some period of time.

Eric: It’s definitely a discipline, but to Laura’s point, I don’t know if Hogwarts taught it before Trelawney, because we also see Firenze… oh, it’s Firenze in this this book, right? Also teaching it later this year. So that’s also as much for Firenze’s safety, because he’s not safe among his herd, among his own people, because he’s kind of an outsider that Dumbledore allows him refuge in the school to teach this class. So that’s sort of twice that Dumbledore could have used the guise of Divination as a subject that’s being taught at Hogwarts to really safeguard two people that are on his side or are valuable to him.

Andrew: I’m looking this up right now, and Trelawney and Firenze are the only known Divination teachers, and the Harry Potter wiki also says that Dumbledore had originally decided that this course should no longer be taught at Hogwarts; it being considered obscure and inaccurate to most. However, seeing the applicant for the teaching post was the famous great-great-granddaughter of a celebrated Seer, Dumbledore decided to give her a chance. When she made a prophecy that impressed Dumbledore, she was granted the position, so there you go, Laura.

Laura: It’s very interesting.

Micah: Laura, the voice of reason.

Laura: Oh, thank you.

Andrew: Laura could see something we couldn’t. Maybe you’re a Seer! Oh my God!

Laura: [laughs] Maybe. I think… also something I wanted to bring up here, and this is a very exaggerated comparison, right? Because you have these two polar opposite characters who are very much caricatures of two different ends of the spectrum, but it does remind me of some of the scrutiny that qualitative and humanitarian disciplines receive from more data-driven disciplines. I’ve definitely encountered folks in the field of education who don’t have a ton of appreciation for the humanities and don’t really see their usefulness, and this interaction between Umbridge and Trelawney really reminds me of that, that because Umbridge doesn’t understand, she just doesn’t respect it as a discipline. So even if Trelawney was a good teacher, I think that she was already at a massive disadvantage the moment Umbridge walked in the room.

Andrew: Does Hogwarts ever have guest speakers? They just come in for a day and talk about what they do? Maybe that would have been a great role for Trelawney. She comes in once a year, she gives a presentation, and then she’s out.

Eric: Right.

Micah: I like what Laura said, though, because I think that the lack of understanding and maybe even the lack of care that Umbridge has towards something like Divination, you almost think that she comes into that class knowing exactly what it is that she’s going to try and do to push Trelawney’s buttons. And I’m also curious, too, if all of these classes receive the same types of evaluations, because how you would evaluate a Divination class versus a Potions class has to be vastly different, and that goes to what I was saying earlier about qualifications for Umbridge to be evaluating these professors. But just one other thing on these two – and I think Laura said how they’re at such different ends of the spectrum – it’s really ironic that Umbridge asks Trelawney to make a prophecy or a prediction, which is that practical application, where in her own class, Umbridge is so by the book and not willing to allow her students to do more practical types of things. So I just thought it was a little bit comical that she’s evaluating teachers on that when she herself is not engaging in that kind of teaching.

Eric: That’s impressive, yeah.

Laura: Yep. It’d be funny if somebody walked into Umbridge’s class and was like, “Can you show me how to produce a full Patronus right here in front of everybody? Or can you show me how to defend yourself against one of the Unforgivable Curses right here in front of me?” Surely she’d be like, “Uhh…” feel very put on the spot.

Andrew: Yeah. In bonus MuggleCast today, we will talk about the specific prediction that Trelawney makes for Umbridge, and if Umbridge thought back to that prediction, once she does meet her [laughs] multiple demises in the remainder of the Harry Potter series. So let’s move on to McGonagall’s class.

Micah: Which I think probably, as readers, we were all anticipating.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: It seemed like Harry was anticipating this moment as well.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And McGonagall is not taking anything from anybody in this chapter, and she could care less, quite honestly, that Umbridge is in her classroom.

Eric: She even ignores her.

Micah: Yeah, straight-up ignores her.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think at one point tells her… doesn’t Umbridge ask whether or not she noticed or received note of the appointment?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and McGonagall says, “Of course I did, because I didn’t react to you walking into my classroom.” Harry feels that McGonagall lost her temper in front of Umbridge; he brings that up later in the chapter, but I don’t think McGonagall did.

Laura: No, I don’t think so either. McGonagall actually… she was doing exactly what a teacher should do during classroom observation, which is ignore the observer and just act like it’s business as usual. And Umbridge was interfering with that, so she smacked her down, but I don’t think that she lost her temper.

Andrew: Yeah, she was witty, she was sharp, but she wasn’t angry. She handled it the best that she could, I think, especially considering that Umbridge was interrupting her.

Micah: Do you think that Umbridge respects McGonagall in any way, kind of peer to peer? If she were to respect anybody, I feel like McGonagall might be that professor.

Laura: I think she’s intimidated by her. I don’t know about respect.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s someone who’s been at Hogwarts for a while. She’s very well-respected amongst the teachers and Dumbledore, and Umbridge is probably impressed by the fact that she, Umbridge, can push McGonagall’s buttons and McGonagall won’t react in the way that she’s expecting. So yeah, I think there’s respect for her.

Micah: And we know from Umbridge’s backstory that she’s always failed, prior to the Ministry, to rise in positions of power, and it’s referenced at Hogwarts that she failed to do this as well when she was a student, so I wonder if seeing McGonagall basically be second-in-command to Dumbledore, if there is some sort of level of respect there.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: But I agree on the intimidation point. I do think that she fears McGonagall a bit as well.

Andrew: In the scene, Umbridge also asks how many years McGonagall has taught at Hogwarts, which is also this week’s Quizzitch question, and McGonagall says 39 years, yet in Crimes of Grindelwald, we see her at Hogwarts. So there are some theories about how this could be. Maybe she was a teacher assistant back then. Maybe she was teaching back then, left Hogwarts, then came back. There’s also been theories that McGonagall has been using a Time-Turner, and somebody actually called in with this theory. We were getting it a lot when Crimes of Grindelwald first came out. In my opinion, there’s no way that McGonagall is jumping around the timeline to teach. That just does not make sense to me. Why would she do that?

Laura: Yeah, well, and also, using a Time-Turner doesn’t impact your age, does it?

Andrew: Right, exactly. She’s younger. She’s actually younger, so that doesn’t make sense. But what are everyone’s theories here as to why she was at Hogwarts in Crimes of Grindelwald?

Eric: It’s a retcon. It’s clearly just…

Andrew: Fan service.

Eric: Whoever wrote that script didn’t care enough about previously established…

Micah: Can you explain what a retcon is?

Eric: I forget what it stands for. It’s something… it’s a contradiction to canon that has been retroactively – there we go…

Andrew: There it is.

Eric: … retroactively adjusted or fixed in… usually when it’s given an explanation, but this time we don’t have one. It’s just one of those things. So it would be… it’s a retcon that she was at Hogwarts that early in the timeline when previously she stated “39 years this December,” which means 38, so in 1995 she had been there for 38 years, so 1957 she came to Hogwarts, if I’m doing that right. That’s a full 30 years after Crimes of Grindelwald is set, was supposed to be.

Laura: Yeah, and also, don’t we know her actual birthday? And according to that, she would have been a child during the second Fantastic Beasts movie?

Andrew: I think people did the math to figure out her birthday through various pieces of information. In fairness to J.K. Rowling, maybe she will give us more information in the next movie.

Micah: I don’t think it’s coming, so don’t expect it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think she has to. I think she has a responsibility.

Micah: I don’t think… she may play an active role; she may not. It could have just been one of those nice moments for Potter fans during that scene at Hogwarts to have another familiar face. And personally, I just don’t see her playing much more of a role in future films. I think it was just nice to have, and I think especially given the reaction, you’re not going to see her moving forward.

Andrew: Casual fans don’t care about the math, though.

Eric: Yeah. She was tremendously well cast; even the very few moments, I think, in Crimes of Grindelwald that we see her, I think she’s excellent. And another reason for having her in Crimes of Grindelwald is to show that even in the ’20s, when there’s supposed to be another headmaster, whether it’s Dippet or somebody before Dippet – it’s not supposed to be Dumbledore running the show – but having McGonagall there also shows that it’s still Dumbledore’s show. Dumbledore/McGonagall, the two person act, are in charge of everything that goes on at Hogwarts, and it’s just a shorthand way of showing how in control Dumbledore is by having McGonagall be his deputy assistant even in the ’20s.

Andrew: I actually bet that we will see her again, because remember that report a few months ago that said that there’s going to be more Dumbledore in the next movie to please the fans? McGonagall could be a part of that, of those Dumbledore scenes. That would please the fans, the casual ones. It may bother us, but most people, I think, will be pleased. Anyway.

Micah: So now you’re saying I need to retract my statement about her not being in the next one.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, I think…

Micah: Or not playing a significant…

Andrew: Well, we don’t know for sure, but that’s my guess.

Micah: It’s a good point. But if she is there, I think we’re just going to need to be completely dismissive of the age factor.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: We’re just going to, as fans, need to accept the fact that they decided…

Andrew: [singing “Let It Go” from Frozen] “Let it go, let it go…”

Micah: Yeah. Perfect, Frozen.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: People need to get into that Frozen mindset and just recognize that she’s being put in the films because she’s another familiar face for Harry Potter fans.

Andrew: As Elsa says, “McGonagall’s age never bothered me anyway.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: But I did look up… the headmaster around that time should, in fact, be Armando Dippet.

Eric: Well, there you go.

Micah: Prior to him, it was Phineas Nigellus Black. Do we want to talk about the other professors briefly?

Eric: Yeah, it’s worth a mention that she stopped in on Grubbly-Plank’s.

Andrew: And Grubbly-Plank had nothing but good things to say about Dumbledore, which Umbridge did not like.

Eric: Otherwise, another really good class by Grubbly-Plank. That’s good. And she also… so Fred and George in the morning say that she also sat in on Flitwick’s, or at lunch they say this. And according to… we mentioned how Umbridge is being disruptive during McGonagall’s, and that’s not what she should do. She also apparently just kind of stayed in the back of the room during Flitwick’s class. I’m so glad she didn’t walk right up to him and ask him about his blood status.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Or his heritage, or something crazy racist.

Micah: Like the movie, where she measures him.

Eric: [laughs] That’s right. In the movie, that’s pretty funny.

Andrew: Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.

Eric: But she does, apparently, ask one of the students – Angelina, who happens to be in the back – whether or not his class is good, and Angelina is nothing but smiles.

Andrew: Why would you measure Flitwick? I mean, that’s… what does that have to do with anything?

Eric: It’s racist. It’s just meant to be completely intolerant.

Andrew: I think in the movie it’s supposed to just be funny, but if you really think about it, it’s pretty awful.

Micah: It is awful.

Andrew: Size doesn’t matter, Umbridge.

Micah: That’s why I really encourage people to go onto the Wizarding World site and read the backstory on Dolores Umbridge, because she is a pure-blood maniac and she has zero tolerance for anybody that does not fit that mold, and it can’t be overstated. And that just goes to show you why she acts the way that she does in this chapter, but also, as we were talking about… and I think it’s why somebody like David Yates chose to include that scene with Flitwick, even though it’s not in the book; it’s a representation of how strong her feelings are about people that don’t conform to the way that she thinks people should be. And it’s a very short read, but it’s worth checking out.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And I mean, Flitwick, according to Fred and George, always gets people through their examinations. After all, this is what Hogwarts is all about, right? Exams.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: And so Flitwick, in regards to the question whether or not Umbridge respects anyone truly, I think she should respect Flitwick for at least being competent. Same with Grubbly-Plank. But because Flitwick is not fully human, and because Grubbly-Plank is a Dumbledore fan, Umbridge will not give those teachers the full marks that they deserve.

Micah: But don’t you think she knows going into this? She may be able to knock Flitwick here, or knock McGonagall there, but she knows the professors she most likely can take down, and that’s her goal in this, is she wants to remove a few of the professors that Dumbledore maybe even put into position himself. Do we assume…?

Andrew: And she probably knew which teachers she wanted to take out before even sitting in on their classes.

Micah: Right, exactly.

Andrew: We do get a scene in Umbridge’s classroom – this happened before she sits in on McGonagall’s class – and she assigns the class a chapter to read. Hermione can’t help, of course, but state that she’s read the whole book already. Umbridge asks her a question about the reading that Hermione correctly answers, but she also can’t help but state that she does not agree with the author, so this causes a kerfuffle, Umbridge takes five points from Gryffindor for Hermione stating her opinion, and then, of course, this annoys Harry, and then Harry gets himself in detention again when he speaks out. I’m wondering why Hermione decided to say that, “Oh, I’ve already read the whole book, and I disagree with the author.” Doesn’t she know that these thoughts would annoy Umbridge?

Laura: Well, yeah, she’s resisting.

Micah: Yeah, and this is a big miscalculation on the part of Hermione, even though she is resisting, and I think it sets up well what happens at the very end of the chapter in her trying to convince Harry to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts. But the wheels that get set in motion as a result of this, as it relates to Umbridge, is not fair to Harry on the part of… I think Hermione needs to be a little bit more aware in this moment and know that Harry is always going to look to come to her defense if she tries to challenge somebody like Umbridge. And I don’t think she was really proving anything by saying that she had finished reading the book. She’s not going to get on Umbridge’s good side, let’s say, in this type of a moment, and so I was actually kind of disappointed in Hermione in this particular chapter for doing this, and it ends up hurting Harry at the end of the day. That said, Umbridge is also looking for any opportunity to get Harry into trouble, and if we look at the example in this chapter, she again finds a way to bring up Voldemort without directly bringing up Voldemort, because she brings up Quirrell and that immediately sets Harry off, and Harry mentions the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head, and we know anytime that Harry brings up Voldemort, it’s going to get him detention.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So I think Umbridge is being very, very strategic in what she’s saying to the class, because she’s looking for that opportunity, and I think that’s what Angelina is trying to tell Harry; that’s what Hermione is trying to tell Harry; that’s what McGonagall is trying to tell Harry. “You have to understand this woman is out to get you; just keep it cool,” but he can’t do it.

Eric: I think, to Hermione’s credit… I think Hermione’s question starts out fair enough, innocent enough. She has read the chapter, so what should she do with this class time? The class is so useless, what can she do? It’s a mark against Umbridge that Umbridge doesn’t have an alternate assignment instead. Well, I mean, I guess, to be fair, nobody expects Hermione to have read the next chapter and the next chapter and the next in advance of the class. She quizzes Hermione and, of course, gets into the scuffle about what Hermione feels. But there should be something else to do. This is just… it’s revealed for what it is, busy work, right? I mean, Hermione… it is a form of resistance, because I think Hermione did expect there to not really be anything for her to do, but Hermione, I guess, could have just not asked and could have pretended to read the chapter again.

Laura: Well, and I think also she’s attempting to make some use of her time in the classroom, because she’s like, “Well, if all Umbridge wants to do is make us read theory, perhaps I can engage in a conversation about the theory and a healthy debate about the theory,” but Umbridge won’t even do that.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And I think, I mean, this is Hermione’s breaking moment, obviously, as we see later in the chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: It’s also interesting that in a chapter where Umbridge is evaluating the other professors at Hogwarts, she – in this moment, in this kind of back and forth with Hermione and Harry – is essentially evaluating the other Defense Against the Dark Arts professors as well. She goes through the list and talks about how unqualified they were, with the exception of Quirrell, who seemed to be okay. But again, that’s the moment where Harry jumps in and responds because he can’t help himself and gets him detention. And McGonagall gets the news of the fact that Harry has gotten another fresh round of detentions…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and she’s pissed now too. She’s like, “Five points from Gryffindor for you not keeping your cool. I gave you some biscuits the last time this happened, but no cookie this time around.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “No cookie for you.”

Micah: It’s a teaching moment, though. I think this is important because – and of course, Hermione is in agreement – but it’s a teaching moment for Harry. It’s showing him that despite everything that’s going on, he needs to keep a level head, and he needs to understand what is going on beneath the surface, and the more that he gives to Umbridge, the more detentions he’s going to get. That said, I think what’s happening in these detentions – and it’s brought up in this chapter – it needs to be brought to somebody in an authority position, because he’s being abused.

Andrew: Yeah, and another thing we’ll talk about in bonus MuggleCast today is how McGonagall would have responded to Umbridge’s detention style, because Harry says that she’d go nuts, but would she? We’ll talk about that over on Patreon. I do have to give Harry credit, though, for still being willing to speak up in class, knowing that he’s going to get himself into detention, knowing that he’s going to have to cut himself again. I mean, that takes some guts.

Eric: I think if J.K. Rowling wrote some of the other scenes where he’s still doing the same thing, where he’s still doing lines and… they’re very… a whole week’s worth of detentions goes by, and J.K. Rowling is like, “Yeah, now his hand was just bleeding more; it’s cool.” But if she had actually shown those scenes, I think we would have sided against Harry. I think it would have been a little bit clearer that Harry is going overboard in his defense. Here’s the other thing: He gets in trouble for talking about Quirrell having Voldemort on the back of his head. We don’t know how much of that is public knowledge. We don’t even know how much of that Umbridge herself can be reasonably expected to suspect. We don’t know what Dumbledore’s report to the Ministry was like on what exactly the goings ons were surrounding the Sorcerer’s Stone. It seems kind of like an inside job that Dumbledore is protecting the Sorcerer’s Stone for his buddy Nicolas Flamel. We just don’t know what the cause of death was ascribed to Quirrell, and so for all Umbridge knows – to play a little bit of devil’s advocate – Harry could be spouting complete and utter nonsense about the Dark Lord.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Laura: Very true, and she’s already conditioned to believe that about him anyway.

Eric: So this round of detentions… eh, might be on Harry.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, they’re definitely on Harry.

Micah: Doesn’t he also get another one thrown his way for responding to Malfoy talking about what happened to him with Buckbeak?

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Yes! I refuse to award an Umbridge Suck count to Umbridge for that particular thing, because it’s Harry again. He’s just so indig… his Hufflepuff comes out, really; he needs to defend his friend Hagrid, and so he’s like, “Well, only because you’re too stupid to listen to what the teacher says.” It just doesn’t… it just reaffirms everything Umbridge thinks about him.

Andrew: Harry wasn’t wrong, but he shouldn’t have spoken out of turn. Harry needs a Twitter account where he can go and be passive aggressive about everything.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: When I’m angry, sometimes I just go onto one of my private Twitter accounts and I bitch. That’s what he needed.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Can we make one for him?

Andrew: Oh, yeah, that’d be great.

Laura: Like, Harry’s private Twitter account?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Angsty Harry.

Andrew: Okay, so we’re going to build out Potter-no-more. We’re going to create a Twitter account for Harry. We’ve got a lot of stuff to do this week.

Micah: And speaking of Twitter, I know we mentioned J.K. Rowling earlier, but it appears that she updated the header…

Andrew: What?

Micah: … with some per… what do they call it? Twitter… it’s not the profile picture.

Andrew: The cover art. Oh, she has a new profile pic, too.

Micah: The cover art.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling, stop using Photo Booth. Everybody stopped using that so long ago.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Use a Snapchat filter. [laughs] No, there… yes, you’re right.

Micah: Do you think she’s got Snapchat?

Andrew: Maybe. I don’t know.

Micah: One other big thing to take away from this chapter was the conversation at the end between Harry, Ron, and Hermione. It is the precursor to the formation of Dumbledore’s Army, and it’s really a great moment of Hermione trying to instill confidence, I thought, in Harry, given everything that has been happening to him throughout the course of this book. One connection I did want to make, though, to Fantastic Beasts is that he is kind of solving his hand in essence of Murtlap, and it is the Murtlap, right, that attacks Jacob in the first Fantastic Beasts movie?

Andrew: Yeah, see? J.K. Rowling loves writing this stuff.

Micah: What exactly is essence of Murtlap? What do they do to that poor creature to get the essence out of it? Do they squeeze it?

Eric: Well, you slit its throat…

Andrew: Nooo!

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: You take a needle; you extract some of his inner goo. He’s got tentacles, these Murtlaps, so maybe you just pluck a tentacle off of his back.

Micah: You squeeze the tentacle like you would maybe with a squid? The ink comes out?

Andrew: Yeah, you milk it like a cow.

Micah: You milk… [laughs] Murtlap milk.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But it is really kind of Hermione, and it doesn’t… I don’t think he thanks her for making it, but she prepared that for Harry. It’s a beautiful thing.

Micah: Yeah, it’s very… I feel like the two really bond at the end of this chapter in a way that we maybe haven’t seen in this series so far. I mean, Ron is present; he’s there. He’s kind of a cheerleader in the background; I don’t want to diminish his role. But it’s really Hermione coming across here as a friend, as you said, making this essence of Murtlap for him, and then convincing him that he needs to step up and help teach those who want to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s the old one-two. Hermione lends a helping hand, and then once he’s appreciative of her, she drops the big idea on him.

Micah: So you think she goaded him in?

Andrew: In a way, yeah. Harry kind of owes it to Hermione, actually, for all the help that she’s given him with homework. This is the least he can do after all this assistance. [laughs] But this scene is also very interesting because Harry experiences a lot of self-doubt and imposter syndrome. So Hermione is listing off the reasons why Harry would be the best for the job – teaching others Defense Against the Dark Arts – and Harry just goes, “Oh, well, I’m not really good at anything… That was luck… If Fawkes hadn’t turned up… That was a fluke… I nearly always had help…” He just can’t believe that he is actually talented. What does everyone here think? Is Harry talented? Did he get lucky? Is it a mix of both?

Laura: I think it’s a mix of both.

Andrew: Don’t tell Harry that.

Eric: Harry has definitely got the intuition. Things seem to work out in his favor. He’s a perpetual source of Felix Felicis before he even knows what that is.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But I think that even in reading the last couple chapters, Harry is like, “Man, now I have to resolve to do better studying,” after Snape gives his essay back with the OWL level grading scheme. Harry knows that he’s not a good student; I don’t think he’d be that surprised if you accused him of being a not good student.

Andrew: He almost might think that he almost wasn’t a wizard. He was with the Dursleys for so long, maybe he never would have been found, and he would have been suppressing this magic forever. But what’s also interesting is that in a moment of rage, Harry says he always did what he did because his back was against the wall as he looked death in the eye, but then he unintentionally admits he has real skills when he says he had to use his own “brain or guts or whatever.” That’s a quote. So maybe he comes to realize in this moment that he actually is talented, because when his back is against the wall, he kicks into high gear and takes down the enemy.

Eric: There’s something to be said for that.

Micah: I don’t want to call it untapped potential, but I think there’s something deep within Harry that knows what to do in these types of moments, whether it’s touching Quirrell’s face or it’s showing that loyalty that is going to… Harry needs to remember Fawkes…

Andrew: A sixth sense.

Micah: Yeah, it’s almost like a sixth sense. Fawkes wouldn’t have shown up if Harry wasn’t loyal to Dumbledore in some capacity, so… and even with the Dementors, he didn’t think that he had the ability, right? He thought it was his father; no way could he possibly produce that kind of level of Patronus. But yet it’s all kind of within him, so that’s why I think of it as untapped potential, and Hermione is trying to draw it out of him and say, “Look, you are good, and you do have these abilities. We need to learn from you. We need to understand how to go about doing these things.” I do think there is a bit of luck involved in some of this – I think there’s always luck involved to some capacity – but Harry is also talented; he just doesn’t realize that he is.

Andrew: And one factor here is that Harry is only 15, so he has reason to be in denial. He’s so young.

Micah: Right, insecure. We’re all insecure about different things at different points of our life…

Andrew: Definitely.

Micah: … so there’s no reason to assume that Harry isn’t going to be. And one thing that I remember is this conversation, the parts about how he had help, takes place in the Hog’s Head in the movie with a bunch of different members of those who want to be in Dumbledore’s Army surrounding him. It was interesting to see it be more of a one-on-one conversation between him and Hermione, with Ron kind of sprinkled in.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think that there is… J.K. Rowling is paying tribute to the trio’s inner relationship, because at this point up in the book, he’s been really mean to them. And he still is; he breaks the bowl with the Murtlap essence in it – and immediately regrets it – because he’s so angry. But it needed to be Hermione who took it upon herself to sell Harry on this whole idea of being a teacher, because that reconciles a lot of what’s been going on with the trio up to this point in this book.

Andrew: Yeah. And then what do we make of Hermione using Voldemort’s name for the first time? Do you think…? It seems like that calmed Harry. Why does that calm him? I’m wondering if it’s because Hermione finally made this direct acknowledgement of the threat.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And also, I mean, she is the smartest witch of her age, so I think that it makes a real difference for Harry to hear her finally have the courage to say it.

Andrew: Yeah, he knew that it was difficult for her to say that, but she did because she really wanted to convince Harry in this moment that he needs to teach this class. It was moving.

Eric: It was very moving.

Micah: Yeah, I like the way you referred to it as a calming effect on Harry. I think it was just important for him to…

Andrew: To hear it, yeah.

Micah: … see that somebody else that’s his age… yeah, that for so long, every… even the adults, right? They shudder. They say, “Don’t say his name.”

Andrew: It’s similar to when we have something boiling inside of us, but we don’t want to talk about it with somebody else. Maybe we have an issue with someone but we’re afraid to bring it up, and then you talk about it, and it feels so good to get it out there. I feel like that’s what’s happening here.

Micah: But it’s… exactly, and it’s also legitimizing what Harry has experienced, because she’s giving validation to his name and saying that he is real. “We’re not going to talk about him like he’s some figment of people’s imaginations and refer to him as You-Know-Who; I’m going to put a name on this.” And I think that means a lot to Harry, and that’s why… I know I keep going back to the fact that him and Hermione just have this connection, I think, at the end of this chapter – and I don’t want to be dismissive of Ron – but I think it’s really important for their relationship.

Andrew: It is a beautiful moment. They should dance in a tent sometime. I think that’s what’s next for this relationship.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry just needs to be shown that change is possible. He needs to believe in himself, that he himself can affect change, and I think Hermione finally saying the name is a way of showing him that the future isn’t set. I think he’s genuinely shocked and stunned a little bit by Hermione here, but it works to give him a little bit of hope that, “Oh, I can show people that the threat is real, and it works to all of what I’m trying to do here,” and it really convinces him more than anything else.

Andrew: Right. I like what you said about “The future isn’t set yet.” Harry can take this moment into his hands and change the future.

Micah: And sneaky Hermione, she is hurting Umbridge in the best possible way, and that’s effectively replacing her with Harry and making him the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor.

Andrew: Right. And Harry gets to bother Umbridge by doing this secretly. He knows that this would drive Umbridge mad if she found out, so it probably feels good to work under her nose without being detected.

Eric: Yeah. I know we said that the beginnings of Dumbledore’s Army were founded, I think, several chapters ago on the Hogwarts Express when Luna came into the fold and Ginny was there with them, but the pieces have been being set, and it’s really the next chapter where things come to a head and all the pieces come in, like what to name the group, and all this stuff really, really come to a fold. And it’s really exciting to see Hermione’s impassioned plea to Harry be such a big out of the left field. I wasn’t expecting it. It’s certainly a cool turn of events.

Micah: And also, the last chapter, J.K. Rowling kind of name dropped Dumbledore’s Army during the conversation with Sirius.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Those little breadcrumbs when Harry asks Sirius.

Eric: And as a kid, who doesn’t want to see students overthrow their teachers?

Andrew: [laughs] The bad ones.

Eric: And running the school, yeah. So I think that there’s a lot of appeal to the general plot idea of this book. We get so heavy on Harry’s emotions sometimes, but I think the general plot line is really satisfying.

Andrew: All right, let’s review all the times that Umbridge sucked this chapter. Micah was really excited because there are plenty of moments to work with. First of all, more painful detentions for Harry.