Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #685, The Not-So-Chosen One (OOTP Chapter 9, The Woes of Mrs. Weasley)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: I’m Laura.
Andrew: And this week we are talking about the Harry Potter TV show because there’s been some news there, and we’re discussing Chapter 9 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Woes of Mrs. Weasley.” And while she may be experiencing some woes, Harry is innocent of all charges, and there are some new prefects on board, so get ready to par-tay. And joining us for today’s par-tay is MuggleCast listener, Slug Club supporter, and friend of the show, Rex! Hi, Rex! Welcome to MuggleCast.
Rex: Hey, thanks for having me. It’s been a dream.
Andrew: Aww. Well, Rex is actually part of the MuggleNet family, right? You’ve worked with MuggleNet over the years.
Rex: Yeah, I was with MuggleNet from July 2019 to September ’23 doing various social media. I was on SpeakBeasty for a minute, as well as Alohomora, as well as doing… I think in 2022 they did the Promptly Potter, and I was also on that.
Andrew: Very cool.
Eric: Awesome.
Andrew: Well, we’re excited to have you on. And can we get your fandom ID as well?
Rex: So my favorite book is Half-Blood Prince, my favorite movie is Prisoner of Azkaban, my favorite character is Remus Lupin, I’m a Hufflepuff, and I’m a Thunderbird.
Andrew: Awesome.
Laura: Oooh.
Andrew: Well, and Lupin has a important role, I’d say, in this chapter, so it’s appropriate that you’re on this week. And yeah, thanks again for your support and for joining us today. Before we get into Chapter 9 of Order of the Phoenix, we do have a couple of announcements. First of all, Quizzitch Live, our real time online Harry Potter trivia game, returns Sunday December 15 at 12:00 p.m. Eastern, so mark your calendars. Everybody can play live, and you’ll be competing against fellow Harry Potter fans as we host the trivia event. This will also be our final episode of MuggleCast of the year. Micah, what types of questions can people expect?
Micah: Oh, it’s a surprise, Andrew.
Andrew: No hints?
Micah: It’s like wrapping a present, and you gift the present; person doesn’t know what’s inside until they unwrap it.
Andrew: Oh.
Eric: But how will they prep? How will they prepare?
Andrew: Yeah, they’ve got to study. Give us a couple clues.
Micah: A couple clues, okay.
Andrew: Some categories.
Micah: Hogwarts: A History. Navigating the castle.
Andrew: Ooh, fun.
Laura: Oh, that’s going to be challenging.
Micah: And thanks to Legalize Gillyweed for providing us with those questions. We also will have some obscure character Hogwarts Houses and some holiday questions.
Andrew: Okay.
Micah: So it’s a little bit of a mix, but it’s going to be fun. And we’re going to have a special guest host as well. That we will not reveal until the actual day of Quizzitch Live.
Andrew: Oh, okay. Sure. Sounds good. Yeah, I like that mixed bag of trivia categories; that’ll keep things…
Micah: A potpourri, as they like to say.
Andrew: Sure.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: So keep an eye on our social media channels for links on the day, but again, Quizzitch Live happening Sunday December 15 at 12:00 p.m. Eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific. And there will be prizes, and we’ll announce those during Quizzitch Live as well.
Micah: You’re not giving me access to the MuggleCast card this time, though, I don’t think.
Andrew: No. Micah is a big spender, especially this time of year.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: So we have some new gift ideas. Well, Micah, the holiday shopping season is here.
Micah: It is.
Andrew: You can now gift a Patreon membership. If you’ve been wanting a membership to our Patreon and you’re still crafting your wish list for Santa or loved ones, send them a link to Patreon.com/MuggleCast/gift, and they will be able to gift you anywhere from one to 12 months of Patreon access. And once you get your access, you’ll receive access to bonus MuggleCast episodes, our livestreams, a new physical gift every year, and a lot more. You can check out all the details at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’re actually recording a new bonus MuggleCast this week, and we’re going to discuss: Are the Harry Potter movies really Christmas movies? We’ll wade into that debate coming up. And also, another gift idea: Check out MuggleCastMerch.com. You can purchase all kinds of new MuggleCast gear that we’ve released in the last few weeks, so there are some holiday options for everybody.
Micah: Yeah, and speaking of gifts, there’s a recently released book in the world of Harry Potter. It’s called The Boy Who Lived by David Holmes, and we were actually sent a copy of this. To give a little bit of background, folks may be familiar with who David is. He was a stunt double to Dan Radcliffe in the Harry Potter film franchise, and his work as kind of the real life fall guy for Harry Potter enabled him to create some of the most memorable action sequences in the wizarding world as he became the first person ever to play Quidditch. But during the making of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – Part 1, David actually broke his neck in a stunt rehearsal and was instantly paralyzed. So this book is an autobiography of his life. He talks a lot about his strong relationship with Daniel Radcliffe; they knew each other pretty much since the beginning, since he worked all the way up until Deathly Hallows – Part 1 from Philosopher’s Stone. Dan Radcliffe actually pens the foreword to David’s autobiography. And there is a 90-minute HBO documentary of the same name, The Boy Who Lived, if anybody has seen it, and it is produced by Dan Radcliffe. So this book currently on Amazon retails for about $30, but it is a really powerful story, and I think in addition, really chronicles David’s experiences all the way up to Harry Potter, and of course, afterwards.
Andrew: I did see the documentary. I guess it was released last year. It was very good; would definitely recommend that everybody check that out, and have to check out this book as well. A little bit of news before we get into Chapter by Chapter: I had mentioned there was some Harry Potter TV show news. We actually got quite a bit in the last week. There is an actor named Paapa Essiedu, and he is apparently up for the role of Severus Snape. This has been reported by The Hollywood Reporter. He has starred in The Lazarus Project, he appeared in I May Destroy You, and he had a starring role in the Season 6 finale of Black Mirror. I actually watched that particular episode in preparation for today, because I hadn’t seen him in anything yet. He was a great actor. He plays this wicked, creepy kind of role in this episode of Black Mirror, and while he wasn’t exactly portraying a Snape type character, I can see how he could, in his more serious moments in this episode, be Snape-like. So have you guys heard of this guy, or seen him in anything?
Rex: I heard of him, like, five minutes before hopping on this when I saw the post.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Okay.
Laura: Hey, you came prepared. Yeah, I had seen him in that episode of Black Mirror as well, and he is incredible. He’s got such range. I would be really excited to see his interpretation of Snape.
Andrew: Yeah. He is Black, and about 10 years younger than Alan Rickman was when he was cast for the role, and this is probably the first of what I assume might be several people WB hires who help diversify the cast. There’s been criticism of the original movies over the years that the series was very white; even the books were too. One reason I bring this up is because we’re seeing comments online already about, “Oh, why are they changing Snape’s race?” And then people are also bringing up Adam Driver for Snape.
Laura: Ugh, God.
Andrew: That’s been a fan favorite pick for people, and I get it.
Eric: Let it live there in people’s heads and not ever on screen.
Andrew: Here’s what blows my mind about this: We all love the authenticity of the Harry Potter movies, and part of the reason they feel so authentic is it’s an all-British cast. Adam Driver is from San Diego, California. We don’t need a Californian Severus Snape. [laughs] We don’t need Alan Rickman 2, which is another reason why people want Adam Driver to play the role, because they could see him pulling it off like Alan Rickman did.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: I will say, I think he’s actually 20 years younger than Alan Rickman was. He’s age appropriate for Snape, because he’s 34…
Laura: Right.
Eric: … and that is the biggest thing I care about, really, is getting a young group of Marauders era actors in here, because I think there’s so much more that you can do. Between doing that and actually showing the scenes with the Marauders, this TV series could do no wrong.
Andrew: It’s interesting you mention the age. The showrunners of the Harry Potter TV series actually made a couple of remarks this past week: First of all, the series will begin filming this summer, summer 2025, and they’re currently reviewing hundreds of audition tapes for the trio per day. They did confirm they will have eight hours, so presumably eight episodes for Book 1. That’s pretty big news, going from, what, 2:45 for the first movie, to eight hours? I mean, that’s a lot of room to tell Book 1. They also said that they will be sticking to the correct ages for the characters. They did confirm Severus Snape will be in his thirties. They also said James and Lily Potter will be younger because they were only 21 when they died. And they’re going to continue the tradition of brilliant theater actors in the UK for the adults, with the young actors all being newcomers, and they said they’re excited about this TV show because they get to “really dig into the character arcs and explore Hogwarts more, including the lives of its staff.” So reading this all excites me, because this is what we want, right? We want them spending more time on the little things that they cut from the books.
Eric: Yep.
Andrew: One other thing: They did confirm that Peeves will be in the show, too, to the point about expanding.
Eric: Unbelievable. Wow.
Andrew: So it sounds like we’re getting everything we wanted from this. [laughs]
Rex: Well, and Peeves will give a lot of that comedic material, as he is kind of Fred and George before Fred and George was at Hogwarts, even though they’re there for the show.
Eric: That’s a great point.
Andrew: Yeah, and it’ll also… Peeves will help contribute to the charm of Hogwarts. That’s one of the things that we love about Hogwarts. We love that it’s a mess. We love that this poltergeist is running around causing chaos; that’s why we love the school. So those are the updates there concerning the Harry Potter TV show, and you can stay tuned to MuggleCast for more discussion as the series develops. Make sure you follow the podcast for free in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube as well. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, this week’s episode is sponsored by Better Help.
[Ad break]
Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner
Andrew: Now, time for Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re discussing Chapter 9 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Woes of Mrs. Weasley.” Eric, take us back in time.
Eric: Yes, we last talked about Chapter 9, “The Woes of Mrs. Weasley,” on Episodes 241, called “One and Done,” on October 16, 2011, and then Episode 443 on November 18, 2019, and that one was called “Never a Bride.”
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.
Ron: What the…?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 241.
Micah: He kind of comes to the conclusion himself that, “You know what? At the end of the day, I can’t really make the case for me deserving it more than Ron.” But later, at dinner, Harry learns that Lupin was prefect during his father’s time at Hogwarts and his father wasn’t a prefect, so that made him feel a lot better about the whole situation.
Eric: Surprising they made Lupin a prefect with his condition.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true.
Eric: Wouldn’t he have too much on his plate?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 443.
Micah: Harry notes that he’s looking forward to all these different things at Hogwarts coming up now that he’s been vindicated. He’s looking forward to seeing Hagrid, and playing Quidditch, and strolling across the vegetable patches, and I thought it was just a bit ironic because most of these things, if not all of them, are taken away from him at some point during the year.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Ooh, that’s a good catch.
Micah: Because I don’t even think Hagrid is there right at the start of the term.
Eric: That’s right.
Laura: No, you’re right. He comes back with a steak on his face halfway through the book.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Micah: And Umbridge takes care of Quidditch and strolling amongst the grounds, so yeah, I thought that was funny.
[Whooshing sound]
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.
[Bell dings]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Laura: Picking up this week’s chapter, we’re right where we left off. Harry is still in the courtroom. We pick up with him uncertain as to whether he’s free to go; he’s looking around waiting for someone to acknowledge him and usher him out of the chamber, but no one looks at him, so he tentatively starts walking towards the exit, and when nobody chases him down and stops him, he breaks into a half dash to get out the door as quickly as he can. And Arthur is waiting outside on pins and needles because Dumbledore, who just walked right past him after the verdict was read, didn’t tell Arthur anything.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Gotta go. No time to talk.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Laura: So why do we think Dumbledore didn’t give Arthur the good news?
Rex: Because it’s Harry’s decision. Not Harry’s decision; it’s Harry’s news. It’s about him.
Laura: Ahh, okay.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “And I don’t want to share any news. I want to get out of there ASAP, because I don’t care about the boy, wink-wink.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: You would think there was an important knitting show on TV or something and he’s late for it.
Rex: There might have been.
Andrew: Or he had a coffee date.
Eric: I can just say, it really upsets me. The way in which no one pays attention to Harry in the aftermath shows further detachment from what he must be feeling. This could have been the worst day of his life. We talked about this in the last time we covered the previous chapter, but this could have been the worst day in his life. No one’s there. His lawyer/attorney Dumbledore is gone. Nobody’s there for Harry, and it’s so isolating, and it’s so awful that there’s not even an appointed employee in the room to be like, “Okay, now you go this way.”
Laura: Especially since…
Micah: But he hasn’t had that all along.
Laura: Right.
Andrew: This has been the theme of this book thus far. Harry is isolated. Nobody’s even going to direct him out of the courtroom.
Eric: It’s just like because they couldn’t nail him on these charges, everyone just looks the other way and is like, “Okay, well, that’s done.” And then they all leave! And it’s just like, “Who’s taking care of the boy?” And Arthur… Dumbledore wasn’t even just like, “Go in; you can,” or anything.
Micah: Now, I know I wasn’t on the show last week, and it was certainly a celebration of Albus Dumbledore without my presence. But I will say, I’ll give Dumbledore his flowers. He came through for Harry. But when things were over, my man darted right out of there…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … didn’t say anything to Harry, didn’t say anything to Arthur, and he’s just back to his old self again. But the other thing, too, Dumbledore rushing out of the chamber… my guy is 150 years old. Maybe he had to use the bathroom.
Andrew: Maybe! Maybe he had to take a Dumble-D.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: I kind of stole that from Micah. Micah was workshopping some ideas for today over text. I said, “Keep it family friendly, please.”
Micah: I did.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I like that.
Eric: Nice work, everybody.
Andrew: Laura, what were you going to say?
Laura: Oh, I was just going to say I did wonder if he had had an extra large cup of coffee before he got to the courtroom. That would explain it.
Rex: Well, why wouldn’t he wear a Depends?
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, he doesn’t know how long this trial is lasting.
Eric: Just go, man. You can vanish it later.
Laura: I mean, wizards don’t have to. They just vanish it to poop mountain.
Andrew: Not in front of a judge and jury.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: Well, he can use non-verbal spells, right?
Laura: Right.
Eric: Yeah, no one would ever know.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: You just see him flinch a little.
Rex: Could you use a non-verbal spell while you’re talking, though? If he was defending Harry, could he silently simultaneously, like, “Evanesco“?
Eric: I would love the idea… yeah, the whole time he’s testifying to the Ministry, he’s secretly vanishing his own…
Andrew: Yeah, you hear him mumble a little bit under his breath and he just does a little jiggle real quick. Okay, Chloé, let’s cut this. Let’s post this on Instagram.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Great clip to get fans from Instagram.
[Eric sighs]
Laura: Yep, people who mirror that cross section of poop humor and being Harry Potter superfans. [laughs] That’s what we’re going for.
Eric: It’s not me.
Micah: Well, speaking of [censored] characters…
Laura: Yeah, perfect intro.
Eric: There you go.
Laura: So Fudge actually passes Harry and Arthur leaving the courtroom, and he passes them without comment, even though five minutes ago he was trying to condemn this 15-year-old to expulsion and a life on the fringes, but now he won’t even look at him. He instead makes his way to Lucius Malfoy, and the question comes up in this exchange of what is Lucius even doing down here? And I think we’re intended to believe that he’s just being messy. He’s wanting to spy on what’s going on with Harry. It’s all about the Death Eater connection and what happened in the graveyard last year, and seeing Harry get his just desserts, as Lucius would think about it. But there’s another layer to this, too, and it’s that they’re right by the Department of Mysteries, and we know this is a place that Lucius and company are keeping quite an eye on this year. So I love the duality of this moment of feeling like, “Oh, he’s just here to stir up the drama,” and it’s like, yes, but also he’s in a place trying to access something that he shouldn’t be accessing.
Eric: Yeah. He’s also there to make a donation, which really grinds my gears. For all of the attention that the later book gets with Umbridge trying to run Hogwarts like it’s some kind of dictatorship, we see with very little effort made to conceal… in fact, I think Lucius intentionally clinks his pockets and Harry hears gold. He’s there bribing Fudge, and it is said that essentially, Lucius’s commitment to continuing to make these charitable contributions – with little air quotes – allow him to oversee which laws do and don’t get passed. He has that much influence because of his wealth, and that makes this basically an oligarchy. That makes him an oligarch. That makes him above the law and above certain laws. He’s not an elected official. He’s not in government. Couldn’t pass a background check if he got in because he’s an active Death Eater. [laughs] But it’s just a shame to see that that is how this world works. But it’s fascinating to me, because 10 years ago, I wouldn’t have thought anything of this. I mean, we knew he was a bad guy, but the idea that it’s even… I think Harry is told, maybe even by Arthur, that, “Oh yeah, Lucius, a private citizen, is influencing the laws.”
Micah: I really like what you said, Laura, too. And I had to look it up because I was trying to recall exactly the dialogue between Arthur and Lucius, but it’s when Mr. Weasley is responding him, saying, “I work here,” and Lucius responds by saying, “Not here, surely?”, “raising his eyebrows and glancing toward the door over Mr. Weasley’s shoulder.” So that’s an additional nod to the Department of Mysteries.
Laura: That’s a great catch. Yeah, I mean, it’s definitely disturbing to see the, I guess, private sector influence – capitalistic influence, if you will – over the government. Unfortunately, like many of the other parallels that we can draw from the Harry Potter books, this is something that has been known to happen in real life. But there is also this moment where Lucius refers to Harry as “Patronus Potter.”
[Andrew laughs]
Rex: Love alliteration.
Andrew: Yes!
Laura: And I was like, “How did this jerk find out about this so soon?” Either Fudge told him in advance or scurried up to him to tell him the news, or Lucius knew exactly what Umbridge did, and because he knows Harry can cast a Patronus, put two and two together.
Eric: There’s got to be a middle ground, I think, between those two outcomes. Rex, what do you think?
Rex: Oh, well, I just think he kind of is in everyone’s business. That’s why his hair is so pretty.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: What’s the connection? [laughs]
Rex: I do feel like he knows things behind the scenes. Definitely there’s some… I don’t necessarily think if corruption is the right word to use right now, but people are talking to him because he is very influential with money. And he knows Harry can cast a Patronus, and it is kind of impressive that a 15-year-old, at this age, can do that.
Andrew: It is.
Rex: So he might just kind of be like, “Oh, maybe I’ll see him do it” type of thing as well, which would be kind of cool, even if you don’t like Harry Potter.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, I don’t think Lucius necessarily… by calling Harry “Patronus Potter,” he doesn’t reveal that he already knows what happened in the courtroom. It should be a matter of some level of record that Harry was having this hearing because of underage magic. That was the Patronus Charm. That is what the letter – from Mafalda Hopkirk or Miranda Goshawk or whoever it is at the Ministry – says: “You need a hearing for this.” So I think any time over the last couple of weeks, while Harry has been dreading the hearing, Lucius would have been able to find out what charm or whatever Harry is alleged to have cast.
Andrew: I can see a scenario where Lucius runs up to Fudge, and Fudge starts just flying off the handle explaining what happened, and that’s how Lucius found out so quickly about Harry’s story and the Patronus and all that. And I was sort of just led to believe that that was the answer, considering that Harry runs into these two talking.
Micah: I agree with you, Eric. I think that it’s been out there long enough, and just knowing Lucius’s connections within the Ministry, he probably found out about this at some point while Harry was still at Grimmauld Place.
Eric: Yeah, it was Mafalda Hopkirk, by the way. I’m so glad to have been able to look that up.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: And I know we’ve talked a little bit about the fact that you have Lucius commiserating with Fudge. Harry has a flashback to what happened in the graveyard, and he notes that this is the same man that weeks earlier he saw through the eyes of a Death Eater’s hood, and this person is now standing feet away from the Minister for Magic. That’s really got to rattle him.
Eric: Nothing could be clearer. Fudge is so worried about his enemies and stuff; he’s standing willingly next to the enemy, essentially.
Andrew: The injustice here is just sickening, to know that he’s roaming the halls after he was in his Death Eater getup just a few weeks ago.
Eric: I wish that Harry had the fortitude and wherewithal to be like, “Oh, Lucius, I didn’t recognize you without your hood.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: In front of the Minister for Magic. That would have been just… ah, so good.
Laura: Yeah, but he just got cleared of charges and he’s going back to Hogwarts. He’s not trying to rock the boat. I’m sure they would put him on trial for slander; that’s something they would do.
Eric: Well, Harry remembers telling Fudge a few weeks ago that Lucius was there, so Fudge is willfully ignorant of this and still doing business with this guy.
Micah: But doesn’t Arthur put his hand onto Harry’s shoulder to ensure that he doesn’t do anything out of sorts? And then as the conversation…
Eric: Arthur is one to talk.
Andrew: [laughs] He’s an adult, at least.
Micah: Well, his grip actually tightens on Harry’s shoulder as the dialogue continues between him and Lucius, so it’s just funny to see that both of them are probably very close to brawling with him in the halls of the Ministry.
Eric: He’s just that kind of person.
Rex: But wouldn’t he…? I don’t want to say keep Lucius around, but isn’t there a denial of Voldemort existing right now in this book? Because at the end of the book, that’s when the Ministry is just like, “Oh, okay, here’s Voldemort. Yay.”
Andrew: Right. Oh, he is bad. Okay.
[funky music plays]
Andrew: Oop. Sorry.
[Laura laughs]
Rex: That scared me.
Micah: Is that Voldemort’s return music?
Eric: That was weirdly appropriate.
Laura: Was that intentional? [laughs]
Andrew: I was deleting sound effects in the Riverside player and I accidentally hit play on one. Sorry.
Micah: No, well, hold on. When Voldemort returns at the end of this book, that needs to be played.
[Laura and Rex laugh]
Rex: That sound.
Andrew: I already deleted it. It’s gone forever now.
Eric: Oh no!
Micah: No, but it’s on this recording.
[funky music plays]
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: No, that last one was definitely the Goblet of Fire Voldemort return. Him rising out of the cauldron.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Rex: They’ll find this audio and put it in the TV show.
Andrew: Oh, yeah. They’ll be like, “Oh, that was a great idea.”
Laura: Easter eggs. Well, y’all are totally right; Harry very astutely picks up on how dangerous it is for the Minister of Magic to be rubbing shoulders with known Death Eaters, and he immediately worries that perhaps Fudge is already under the Imperius Curse, but Arthur tries to reassure Harry in saying that Dumbledore is pretty convinced that Fudge is still operating of his own free will, and I think we can accept that because we did get to see what Barty Crouch, Sr. was like at the heights of being Imperiused, and I feel like Fudge is still very much himself in this moment. Does anyone disagree?
Andrew: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s a good observation.
Eric: Yeah, it’s that kind of thing where it’s like, “Oh, this is worse.” [laughs] He’s choosing to be this way.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: And it is a little bit of a nugget, though, too, because we do get a Minister for Magic who does come under the Imperius Curse in Deathly Hallows.
Eric: So not this one, but the next one.
Micah: But to your point, Eric, that makes it even worse.
Eric: Well, it’s worse, but then also that threat is not going away. Fudge is going to continue to be close with Lucius Malfoy and others who could Imperius him at any time, so it’s not…
Rex: Well, would he be allowing them for his safety? So if he’s buddy-buddy with them, the likelihood of him being Imperiused, theoretically, would be lower?
Eric: Maybe, until there’s an ask that’s too great that he can’t, or won’t… eventually, he’ll catch wise, I guess, is the idea. Fudge’s journey… I don’t know. I don’t think of him as a man of great introspection or self-reflection, but you have to think somewhere at some point he gets it, and hopefully he’s horrified by the type of evil that he’s ushered in.
Laura: Well, all of that aside, Harry is on cloud nine. Everything is so jovial and funny to him right now that he turns to Arthur and is like, “So what are you going to do about that exploding toilet prank?”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And Arthur actually takes kind of a serious tone and tells Harry… or uses a term that Harry’s never heard before, and it’s “Muggle-baiting,” and he basically says it’s not so much having to repair the damage that’s been done – it’s a very simple piece of magic – but Muggle-baiting is really more about the attitude behind the vandalism. And it might come across as funny initially, but it’s an expression of something much deeper and nastier, he says. So with that in mind, I want us to think back to Goblet of Fire: Would we consider Fred and George’s actions last summer with the Ton-Tongue Toffees to be Muggle-baiting?
Eric: Yeah, there’s actually not much clearer than that. After all, he made a show of dropping it. “Oops!”
Micah: Yeah, I debated this inside of my head for a while. I don’t know that there’s intention of malice here or anything like that on the part of Fred and George, but given the fact that there was nothing Dudley himself could do to reverse the effects of what was happening to him, if we’re looking at the definition here of Muggle-baiting, then yeah, it’s exactly what it is. And Fred and George – Eric, to your point – literally baited Dudley, right? Knowing how much he loves sweets, like you said, just dropped them on the floor. They knew what was going to happen.
Eric: Well, and when asked about it, they’re like, “Yeah, doesn’t he kind of suck anyway? We figured it was okay to do this, because he kind of sucks.” That’s what Arthur is talking about in this chapter, that attitude.
Andrew: And it is interesting that Arthur is the one talking about this when his own sons do it.
Eric: Well, he should have actually punished them greater than what we’re shown that he did.
Rex: They might have gotten a talking-to behind the scenes in Goblet of Fire.
Laura: Oh, maybe.
Andrew: Did it teach them anything, though?
Rex: No.
Andrew: Maybe a little… [laughs]
Eric: Unless they’re holding and rubbing their butts for a month afterward, it wasn’t enough. It’s sick. It’s absolutely sick.
Andrew: Arthur doesn’t strike me as a spanker, but maybe.
Rex: There’s also Molly. Maybe Molly would.
Micah: Only when Molly is around.
Andrew: Molly would spank.
Eric: I was going to say, what would Arthur do instead? Hit them with the car? [laughs]
Laura: Her teenage sons? That’d be weird.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Oh, I thought you meant she would spank Arthur.
Laura: Well, I do have a foreshadowing alert for everyone.
Andrew: And this was the effect I was trying to queue up earlier.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]
Laura: So Harry approaches the Fountain of Magical Brethren to dump his coin bag into the fountain because he got off scot-free, but he’s already picking up that the fountain is a load of BS. And Rex, I’m wondering if you can do us the honor of reading this excerpt of Harry describing the fountain.
Rex: “He looked up into the handsome wizard’s face, but up close, Harry thought he looked rather weak and foolish. The witch was wearing a vapid smile like a beauty contestant, and from what Harry knew of goblins and centaurs, they were most unlikely to be caught staring this soppily at humans of any description. Only the house-elf’s attitude of creeping servility looked convincing.”
Laura: So yeah, Harry is already picking up on this; he even wonders what Hermione would think. But he’s still in such a good mood that he doesn’t think too deeply about this. So this is just a really nice setup for what we’re going to see with this fountain in about 600 pages or so. [laughs]
Andrew: And we were talking in a previous episode about how Harry probably didn’t even notice this statue or give it much thought pre-trial…
Laura: Right.
Andrew: … but post-trial with this giddy excitement that he has, this giddy relief, he can now try to appreciate everything that he’s seeing in the Ministry of Magic, which is still very new to him.
Eric: Yeah, now he’s seeing it for the first the first time.
Micah: And likely what he’s just been through has informed some of what he’s seeing as well.
Andrew: Oh, that’s a good point, too. Yeah.
Rex: And he’s still noticing how unlikely it is for the centaurs and the goblins to be acting in that statue, because it’s kind of more like, “Hmm, that’s odd.”
Laura: Yeah, he’s like, “I’ve actually met some centaurs and some goblins, and this is not what I recall.” Well, Harry is giddy, and we’re going to talk about giddiness here in a few moments, I think, but someone who is definitely not matching Harry’s energy is Sirius. So Sirius is clearly very moody and bummed out after Harry comes home with the good news. He tries to put on a brave face and be happy for a while, but Harry can totally tell that Sirius is brooding because he was kind of hoping, I think, that he and Harry could be outlaws on the fringes, surviving together. And I wanted to ask the Sirius Black defenders on the panel to please explain.
Rex: I think that there’s a huge mental toll that affected Sirius because of his just stay at Azkaban. And I do think because of the visual similarities of James and Harry, he has a really hard time of seeing them as two different people, and he’s just like, “Oh, you’re James’s identical twin, essentially. You’re in Hogwarts. You’re pretty much the only happy memories that I have, so I want to feel happy again.”
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: He’s a presence in the house that is very welcomed, and he got into the house pretty late, relatively speaking. Sirius was probably looking forward to having him. “He’s finally here. Oh, this trial is coming up. Maybe he’ll get to stay for longer; that would be fun for me because I’m stuck here, alone and bored.” Sirius is being selfish here. He should be very excited that his best friend’s son is going back to Hogwarts and wasn’t expelled.
Eric: To complete his education.
Andrew: Yeah, but I do understand why Sirius would be bummed out. It’s not okay, though, for him to be bummed out.
Eric: Okay, because Laura – and only because you asked a Sirius Black defender – I’m not saying there’s not a resemblance between Harry and James, and I’m not saying that Sirius wouldn’t have or doesn’t make that same connection, but this is so much of a problem to me that Molly Weasley gets the final word on what’s going on inside Sirius’s head. Molly Weasley from the previous chapter when they’re shouting at each other over the table, a chapter where Molly is awful – everyone agrees; we all agreed that Molly was just in a weird place and making everyone annoyed in the previous chapter – she gets to have the final word, and everything that she says, like “You can’t tell him apart from James,” gets parroted by Hermione in this chapter. And even delightful, very well thought out cohosts like Rex here on this podcast, they all say, “Oh yeah, Sirius thinks Harry is James.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I’m tired of it! I’m sick of it! Hermione can form her own opinions. I take issue with Hermione in this chapter. She can form her own opinions, and instead she’s just repeating what Molly’s are. What doesn’t sit right with me is that Hermione has a relationship with Sirius that’s outside of Molly and Harry. She rescued Sirius herself with Harry, and she saw Harry and Sirius interact all last year. I would think that she would have at least her own opinion on Sirius in this whole situation, but we don’t get that. All we get is Molly’s stupid line repeated back. And it is a failure of Sirius to be a good guardian to Harry; if he’s upset about this trial working out for Harry and Harry going back to Hogwarts, letting it show to Harry, becoming sullen, becoming more reclusive, avoiding Harry even, that’s not what you want to do, and that may show that Sirius is less mature than we would hope. But I just do not… I don’t like this assertion that Sirius can’t tell the difference between Harry and James. It rubs me quite the wrong way.
Laura: So I have a thought there. I think with Sirius, it may not be so much that he can’t tell the difference, but more so that he doesn’t want to tell the difference. And that’s not any hate towards Sirius; Sirius endured so much trauma, and he was never going to be the same person that he was. I mean, think about this person who had the majority of the prime years of his adulthood stolen from him over something he didn’t do.
Eric: We always go to that, though. When we’re about to say something negative about Sirius, we’re like, “Oh, but he’s so stunted from prison; it’s this awful thing that…”
Laura: I mean, multiple truths.
Eric: Yeah, it’s that thing about multiple truths again, isn’t it?
Laura: Yeah, and it’s true that Sirius endured untold traumas. At the same time, it’s also true that he’s an adult and he needs to get his ish together sometimes.
Eric: Well, again, the fact that Harry sees he’s upset is a problem because Harry’s got enough to deal with without having to worry about making Sirius feel bad. I do think it’s a failure of Sirius, but not for the reasons that Hermione states.
Andrew: All right, we’re going to take a quick break, and then we’re going to explore the feeling of giddy relief. We’ll be right back.
[Ad break]
Andrew: So I wanted to do this segment we haven’t done in a few weeks, make the real life connection, and I want to explore this idea of feeling giddy relief that Harry experiences post-trial. He gets to go back to Hogwarts; he’s very excited about it. It’s when you’re in a really good mood because some bad thing is now in the past, and you feel free. So I was wondering if we’ve ever experienced that feeling of giddy relief. Eric, I think you have one that I agree with.
Eric: Yeah, I was trying to think of when have I been as giddy as Harry is in this chapter? It’s really like if you’re dreading a pop quiz, and the teacher last minute is like, “Okay, I know none of you studied, so it’s open book.” I’m like, “Oh God, I’m not going to get a bad grade. Yay.”
Andrew: Yeah, I agree with you on tests, or even when school is out for summer, or maybe your holiday breaks you’re entering. You have nothing but free time, and you’re like, “Oh, I’m done with my finals. I’m free as a bird for the foreseeable future.” But also for me, I’ll get some anxiety while flying, so I get giddy relief when flying somewhere, then I’m excited to go, and then… well, I’ll get the excitement after I land.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: Oh, are you one of those people who claps when the plane lands?
Andrew: No. No, no, no, no.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Hell no. I boo those people when they clap.
Rex: Do you audibly boo them?
Andrew: [laughs] No, no. Just turn up my volume in my head.
Eric: “Boo! We landed safely, boo!”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: No, but… that’s funny. Or even after a good first date, because you’re nervous about a first date going into it, and then it goes really well, and you get out of it, you’re like, “Oh, cool! Still got it. Still got it.”
Micah: [laughs] What about when you get Final Jeopardy right?
Andrew: I don’t watch Jeopardy anymore. Though I do like Pop Culture Jeopardy, that new one. Micah, when do you get giddy relief?
Micah: I was going to use the Final Jeopardy one, but…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I’m trying to think of something work-related because…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: No, no. Once you get through something that’s been very challenging and it’s finally off your shoulders, and maybe a good one for me would be once you’re through a big event, like All Star, and it’s over and you get the opportunity to just relax and go on vacation.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: That’s always a good one. I went very specific with mine. I don’t know why this was the first thing that occurred to me, but it was surviving the slingshot ride at one of those discount theme parks in Orlando, Florida. You know the ones they have…
Rex: Are you talking about the Fun Spot? Is that what it’s called?
Laura: Yeah, I think so. It’s the stuff that’s close to the theme parks but it’s definitely more like carnival rides. I got on that thing, and I genuinely was not sure if I was going to get off of it.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: And when I survived, I was ecstatic. I had a whole new lease on life.
Rex: Well, you were going to get off of it, no matter what.
Laura: Yeah, that’s true. Just… alive. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, alive.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Well, getting back into our chapter, we’re going to get into a part of the chapter where we see a theme we don’t see a whole lot in this series, and it’s where Ron wins!
Andrew: Aww.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Ron never wins, and he finally wins here. So upon their return to Grimmauld Place, the air is thick with celebration at the news of Harry’s trial. Even with that, though, Harry still has one thing that’s bugging him, and it’s his wish that Dumbledore would have at least looked at him. And I thought it was very interesting that when Harry had this thought – “I wish Dumbledore would just look at me” – his scar burned with that thought. Do we think this is Harry and the Horcrux bristling at the thought of Dumbledore?
Micah: Working together?
Eric: [laughs] They’re a team.
Rex: Oh, that’s what you were going… I saw that; I was like, “I don’t get that.”
[Laura and Rex laugh]
Laura: Yeah, basically, is it a sentiment because Harry is frustrated with Dumbledore? And I would imagine the Horcrux would be very Dumbledore-averse. So are they both reacting to this emotion?
Micah: Yeah, I think that Harry’s anger triggers the Horcrux, especially because his emotions are about Dumbledore. So I do think this is a moment where both things can be true, that Harry can be angry, but that the Horcrux is also reacting to Dumbledore, which we know Voldemort doesn’t like very much.
Laura: Well, Harry has to stop making this all about himself, because it’s really Ron’s moment. So when they receive their…
Micah: Don’t tell Fred and George.
Laura: Yeah, aww. It’s very sad, actually. When they get their book lists and they’re opening their letters for the year, Harry is chatting with Fred and George, going back and forth. Ron is not really participating, and it becomes clear that Ron is standing there dumbfounded, holding his letter and a shiny new prefect’s badge. Everyone, and I mean everyone, seems like they were completely shocked by this turn of events. And I hate this for Ron, because on the one hand, I think he’s pleased for himself. On the other, it’s got to feel kind of crappy to feel like “Everyone around me would have never thought of me for this.”
Andrew: Yeah. We’ve spoken about how the movies have done Ron dirty, making him the stupid character, but here’s a good book example of why we’ve been led to believe that as well. Nobody – like you’re saying, Laura – thought Ron would get it, not even Hermione, the other characters… it’s upsetting.
Micah: Not even Ron.
Andrew: Not even Ron! Well, that’s true.
Rex: He shouldn’t have gotten it.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: He shouldn’t have gotten it, Rex?
Rex: No. I hate Ron.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Oh, you’re on the wrong podcast.
Rex: I know.
Laura: But this is Ron’s moment.
Rex: He does deserve it because Harry had his moment and shared the spotlight, so… I also don’t like Harry.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Rex: It is like the same thing.
Andrew: Well, I just don’t like this assumption that Harry should have been the one to get it. “Oh, it wasn’t Harry’s? It was Ron’s?” Harry gets everything he wants. He gets all the attention, he gets all the accolades…
Rex: And that’s why people think he should get it.
Andrew: He’s busy at… we’re going to do a pros and cons list, so I won’t get into it too much now, but he doesn’t need it. He’s got enough going on. And again, Dumbledore doesn’t want to play favorites.
Eric: It shouldn’t be a popularity contest to begin with, and I wouldn’t suspect that Harry or Ron have the necessary academics to get them high enough to be qualified.
Rex: Well, then who would you give it to?
Eric: Anybody!
Rex: Like Seamus?
Eric: Dean Thomas, Seamus Finnegan… yes, they have to be more academically successful than Harry or Ron, who are always falling asleep in class and all that – I don’t want to sound like Fudge – freaking out, not paying attention… the only thing that can convince me that Harry or Ron’s academics are anywhere near where it should be to be a prefect of your whole year is that Hermione probably helps them on their homework a lot, so maybe their work is actually up to scruff on some things. But other than that, no. There’s got to be… any other Gryffindor would be better and more qualified than both of them.
Rex: I agree with that.
Laura: Wow, that’s a stunning indictment.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: The funny thing about all of this…
Rex: No, it’s because Harry and Ron are two terrible characters. They would have died Book 1 without Hermione.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Oh my God.
Laura: Oh, facts. Preaching to the choir.
Rex: That is my hatred for them. It’s truly Book 1.
Eric: So you do love Hermione, then.
Rex: Oh yeah, she’s my favorite of the golden trio.
Eric: Okay, okay.
Andrew: Then maybe Dumbledore’s plan here is to have Hermione and Ron so that Hermione can teach Ron her ways, and then Ron can get a little bit of character development and grow up in some ways.
Eric: Shapes him up.
Rex: Or he ships them.
Andrew: Or maybe… yeah, right, right.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Or maybe Dumbledore thought it’d be fun if Ron is prefect, then he gets to boss around his brothers, which they challenge the idea of in this scene.
Eric: If Ron is, in fact, a time-traveling Dumbledore – or Dumbledore is a time-traveling Ron – then he’s simply casting himself in the role of Hermione’s partner this year.
Micah: I do think, Andrew, that Dumbledore says later on in this book that he gave it to Ron because he thought Harry had enough to deal with already.
Andrew: There you go.
Eric: But that’s not a support of Ron! You see how that’s worse?
Andrew: Well, no, actually… no, it’s not at all. Just because…
Rex: Harry has done nothing.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Rex: I was just like, “Oh, Harry got his… he can go to school. Woohoo.”
Andrew: One person isn’t available, so you go to the next best available person, and that happened to be Ron. That’s just how it goes sometimes.
Rex: Wait, so Harry was number one?
Andrew: According to Dumbledore.
Rex: Harry Potter?
Eric: Dumbledore does not say that Ron was the next best; he says he didn’t give it to Harry because Harry had enough on his plate.
Andrew: Before we get to the pros and cons of Harry, let me just add here that Mrs. Weasley is very excited about Ron getting the gig.
Laura: Aw, yeah.
Micah: She’s giddy.
Andrew: And I cannot believe that she says “That’s everyone in the family who has become a prefect,” except for Fred and George and Ginny. But I think that is brutal for Fred and George to hear. They’re right there in this scene.
Rex: Ginny is just year four. She hasn’t had the opportunity yet.
Andrew: Right, exactly. Well, yeah, so that’s why it’s not a big deal about Ginny, but for Fred and George, it’s pretty bad to hear. They crack a joke about her comment, but she just straight up ignores them. And what also is crazy to me about this is in this very chapter, in a few pages, we’re going to see how worried and upset Molly is about losing a member of her family. But evidently she forgot about Fred and George? We discussed once what are bad moments from good characters? This is a bad moment from a good character. [laughs]
Rex: It could also be something just having Fred and George grow up, she just knew they would not… one of them would not be prefect.
Andrew: But still, “Everyone in the family”? I mean, that’s just…
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Maybe she’s so mad at them in this moment, she’s just ignoring their existence. But I thought that was brutal.
Laura: And she does do that to them a lot, which I think probably comes back to haunt her later, unfortunately. But let’s get into the pros and cons list here. So we put together a little pros and cons list. Basically, we are standing in for Dumbledore, and we are going to decide why Dumbledore should or should not make Harry a prefect. And we have a lot of entries, so I think we can make it a group effort here. Who wants to go first?
Rex: I just put one pro in the thing. Harry is very determined and he does want to do the right thing, so I do think if he was given that, he would have acted a little differently later on in the book.
Andrew: That’s a good one.
Eric: He’s got a good moral compass.
Rex: But he shouldn’t get it.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: So mine is kind of sad. I just said… this is a pro. I said that if he had become a prefect, it would give Harry the impression that Dumbledore cares about him.
Laura: Yeah, cares enough about him to give him more work to do.
Rex: How much work is it?
Laura: I mean, you’re having to be a leader amongst your peers and patrol the hallways and enforce the rules and stuff.
Eric: I think it would be a good long while… because Harry is so desperate for Dumbledore to acknowledge him in any way, I think it’d be a good long while before Harry began to resent the appointment.
Laura: Something I would call out as a pro for Harry is he already has leadership potential because he is a member of the Gryffindor Quidditch team, so there are definitely some transferable qualities in there. And I also think that Harry does have the skills to rise to the occasion. He’s been put in a lot worse situations than being a prefect and had to rise to the occasion because he had no other choice, so I think he could actually do okay.
Andrew: So what are some of your cons, Laura?
Laura: Some of my cons… I think I’m the one who came in so heavy on the cons, so…
Micah: I got you, Laura.
Laura: Thank you. Thank you.
Rex: That’s why I couldn’t add any, because you have them all.
[Micah laugh]
Laura: I mean, no, you could add rows. You could add so much context here, and feel free to add as we’re going through. But at this point in time, most of Harry’s peers think he’s crazy and they would not respect him. He would not be able to carry out the duties of prefect successfully or effectively, because half the student body thinks he’s insane.
Eric: Yep.
Laura: So actually, it would probably make things even harder for him. Also calling out he doesn’t need the additional responsibility. Like Micah said, we get that from Dumbledore later in the book. I also feel like Harry does not handle conflict with his peers very well. We see that sprinkled throughout the series; he gets into various fights that result in not speaking and brooding with various members of his year, so I just don’t think he would be able to…
Rex: Isn’t that age appropriate, though?
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: Right, and maybe there’s some prefect training. And to Rex’s point…
Laura: [laughs] Hogwarts doesn’t have prefect training. Who are we kidding?
Andrew: And to Rex’s point, maybe… you said, Rex, that he has a strong determination to do the right thing. This would teach him how to do the right thing.
Rex: I do think if he did get it, he would behave differently. I don’t know exactly what that means, but certain things later on in the book would not happen.
Laura: Yeah. What about you, Micah?
Micah: Well, I think – to borrow a line from Dumbledore – he has a certain disregard for the rules. Book after book after book after book he just breaks rules, so how is that setting a good example? You need a prefect who follows the rules. Don’t think Hermione or Ron fall into that category.
Rex: So Ron, who also breaks the rules?
[Micah laughs]
Eric: That’s what I’m saying. Take them both out of the running. They’re both not qualified.
Micah: And Ron, who also in no way is respected by his peers.
Rex: But are there…? Because the other options are Seamus, Dean, and Neville. Are there any others that are contenders?
Laura: I don’t think so.
Micah: Hedwig.
Laura: [laughs] Hedwig.
Eric: I mean, I’m unclear on why it has to be a fifth year. If there’s nobody qualified, why not go for a sixth year? [laughs]
Micah: Skip a year?
Laura: Don’t they maintain the post for their last three years if they get made prefect?
Rex: And I thought one of the seventh year prefects becomes Head Boy and Head Girl.
Laura: Head Boy and Girl, yeah.
Micah: Pay for real security. This place is dangerous enough as it is.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: I know; they’re literally getting student volunteers. It’s insane.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: But also something else to call out about Harry that’s a huge limitation for him being able to be a prefect: He literally just sat on trial in front of the entire Wizengamot for allegedly performing underage magic in front of a Muggle. And even though he was cleared, it’s not a great look to take the kid who was just on trial this summer, bring him back to Hogwarts, and give him a position of authority.
Andrew: No.
Rex: But that’s how you get authority here in the States.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: Yeah, well, this is a very special place, Rex. [laughs]
Eric: I like this explanation – or this con – the most, because it shows that Dumbledore has some kind of maybe idea of what’s going to be going on at Hogwarts this year, we hope, and he’s making sure that he doesn’t put too much of a target on Harry’s back.
Laura: I agree. And I think to wrap this up, the other thing I called out was this would be a huge conflict of interest, I think, honestly. Someone else might have called this out before too. Everyone thinks that Dumbledore has a favoritism thing going on with Harry, so this would not help.
Andrew: Yeah, I said that earlier. He doesn’t need any more heat on him.
Rex: Well, and that kind of goes with what you said about the respect thing as well, because it’s like, “Oh, of course you got it, just because you’re Dumbledore’s favorite. Screw you.”
Laura: Harry is still feeling kind of jealous and kind of ticked off about what just happened. I think it’s compounding emotions of him feeling like, “Dumbledore won’t talk to me; now he didn’t pick me for this position,” and we start to see some of that Chapter 1 maybe Horcrux energy coming through here. Micah, I’m wondering if you can read this excerpt.
Micah: “Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn’t fight Quirrell with me. They didn’t take on Riddle and the Basilisk. They didn’t get rid of all those Dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren’t in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned.”
Laura: Yeah, and Andrew, you called out something really interesting here. We don’t get to see this a lot, right?
Andrew: Well, yeah, I mean, to build on this quote, Harry is seemingly having a conversation with himself. And here’s another passage: “Did he really believe he was better than Ron? No, said the small voice defiantly. Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings. I’m better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I’m not better at anything else. That was definitely true, Harry thought.” And this conversation with the voice in Harry’s head goes on. So yeah, I could see this being some Horcrux energy.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: And self-doubt.
Eric: I also like… I really appreciate that Harry is taking a moment here to take stock. Like, “Do I really think this way?” That’s a useful… even if you consider yourself pretty in touch with your feelings like I do, stopping and actually asking yourself, “Do I feel this way?” yields unexpected results. It puts you out of your… you’re just out of it. You’re one layer removed. So I love that Harry… we don’t see him do this too often, but it’s a really good, healthy mechanism of coping with some distress.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, honestly, you need to have pretty good self-awareness to be able to do that, to step back and be like, “Wait, why am I so ticked off about this?” And I think Harry does realize he’s being petty ultimately, and he tries to show a different face, show a different side of himself when Ron comes back to the room, because he genuinely wants to be happy for his friend.
Andrew: And one reason we get this pettiness is because by the end of the chapter, things will really be put in perspective for Harry about what he truly should be worrying about.
Eric: Yeah, that’s a really good point, to be honest. And only other thing I’ll say here is something had to cause his family to pay attention to Ron, because he deserves, actually, a lot more than he gets. The fact that he’s able to ask for and receive a new broom in this chapter is really nice because you can tell it’s something that he really wants, and then he gets it.
Andrew: Yeah, he’s always been handed… he never gets anything new, so to get something new that he wants is a big deal.
Eric: Yeah. I feel bad for each of the Weasleys, I think, a little bit.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Do we think Ron will make a good prefect, and would he be our choice?
Rex: No.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Say more, Rex. Say more.
Rex: Thinking who I think out of the five potential candidates that are the Gryffindor fifth years, I think Neville would be the best, because I think it would really help his self-confidence.
Andrew: Yeah, that’d be a great moment.
Laura: Ah, interesting that you say that.
Rex: Just because he gets… this is the time where he… in the movies, where he goes from the little frumpy kid to the attractive person; it’s kind of this book. So I think that would just overall help his mental health.
Eric: Well, there’s two moments from the first book that shine why Ron would be good as a prefect and why Neville would be good as a prefect. The Ron one is he’s strategic and is very accomplished… I mean, the chess game really shows that Ron has a brain, if he chooses to use it. The Neville one is Neville stands up to his friends. This is a big deal; it causes Dumbledore to give 10 points to Neville and wins the House Cup for Gryffindor in year one. If Dumbledore really wanted to stand by that, a prefect’s main job is to stand up to your own Gryffindors who are misbehaving and say, “Listen, guys, you’ve got to get in line.” So Neville could take what he did in year one and police his own House…
Rex: Actually fight them.
Eric: Not just Harry and Ron and Hermione, his immediate peers, but the underclassmen as well. I think Neville would actually be more than capable and certainly brave enough to take that role of authority and actually appreciate it, I think. Do you guys agree?
Laura: Yeah, and I love all of this recognition of Neville as being a good candidate to be prefect because we’re going to get to some feedback here in a little bit from a few folks who I think feel the same way as y’all do. But to bring this chapter to a close, Mrs. Weasley is, of course, throwing a dinner party for Ron and Hermione to celebrate their achievement in becoming prefects, and Harry notes that it’s genuinely the happiest that he has seen her all holiday. That’s not going to last for very long. But I do also think it’s notable that Harry turned around his petty feelings so quickly that he was able to overhear Kingsley talking to Lupin at the party and saying, “Yeah, why didn’t Dumbledore choose Harry? He totally should have picked Harry,” and he kind of lets it roll off his back; he doesn’t let it bother him.
Andrew: Yeah, and he also gets some other good news in this scene. He finds out that Tonks wasn’t a prefect either, and somebody else too, right?
Laura: Neither was his dad.
Eric: His dad, yeah.
Andrew: So it helps put things in perspective, and I think that’s the reason why, whether it’s a character in Harry Potter or in the real world, when you start talking to people about your problems, you realize that you’re not alone in having not been chosen as the prefect, or not having gotten this job. We all face rejection in life. And this for Harry, even though he wasn’t really hoping for it in the lead up to it, it feels good to know that other people went through the same thing as well, and he’s saying, “Oh, my dad, he was an awesome guy from everything I heard.”
Laura: “Yeah, he literally died for me.” [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, right. Or “Tonks seems really cool. I mean, I’m just getting to know her, but she seems cool. She didn’t get it either? Okay, all right, not all the cool people get it.”
Eric: I think that’s the immediate… that’s so like the rest of us, too, when we get bad news or news that’s unexpected, like we’ve been snubbed for something, to think more about ourselves than about all the people that we love and respect that also were snubbed or didn’t get it. It’s like, “Oh, okay.”
Andrew: I think the main reason Harry should feel upset about this is they are the trio, and he’s the third wheel in this scenario.
Eric: Yes. Yes, that is so unique.
Andrew: And that would be a crappy feeling for, I think, any of us to experience, if one of the trio is left out of anything.
Eric: That’s a good point.
Micah: But Ron is usually the one on the outside looking in, in most of these situations.
Laura: I was going to say that.
Andrew: Right, right. He needs to put his ego aside and be happy for Harry.
Eric: I think at this point, Dumbledore should send conciliatory letters to each of the four other… because there’s only four candidates besides Ron that could have been chosen this year. There’s got to be some answering. I wonder if any of the kids could fight this. Dean Thomas probably studies hard; Dean probably deserved this.
Micah: It’s good for Harry, though. I mean, it’s a security blanket for him. He could really do whatever he… I mean, he could do whatever he wants anyway, but…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: Dumbledore’s favorite boy, after all.
Micah: Look at the positives, Harry: Your two best friends are prefects.
Rex: So now he really can’t get in trouble.
Laura: Exactly.
Eric: What would Draco do with this kind of power?
Micah: Oh, wait.
[Laura and Rex laugh]
Laura: Well, someone else we get to see at the party at the end of this chapter is Mad-Eye Moody, and he serves a couple of purposes. One is to confirm for Molly that creature hiding in the writing desk upstairs is indeed a boggart. He offers to go take care of it for her, but she waves him off and says, “No, thanks, Alastor; I got it,” and she disappears to go handle that. While that’s underway, Moody pulls out an old photo of the OG Order of the Phoenix, which of course included Harry’s parents, young Sirius, Neville’s parents… and this could have been a heartwarming moment, but Moody basically spent the entire interaction telling Harry how all these people died, and it kind of turns Harry off. I can understand why, especially given that his parents were some of the people in that picture who also died at the hands of Voldemort and the Death Eaters.
Rex: But he’s just beating Harry to the questions, because isn’t everyone in that photo dead? But like, four people?
Laura: Right, right. I think the thing is he’s getting a little bit specific about what happened to people. It’s not just like, “Oh yeah, they died.” He gets into some very specific details about how they met their ends, and I can understand why that was not a conversation Harry was looking forward to having at a party. So Harry, in an effort to get away from this very awkward conversation, decides to go upstairs, and he hears someone sobbing hysterically, and he enters… it’s the parlor, right? Or the writing room. And Mrs. Weasley is there trying to Riddikulus this boggart, which has taken on the forms of her dead family members, and it keeps changing. Harry sees a dead Ron, I believe he sees a dead Arthur, a dead Fred and George… it just keeps changing. And Molly is really losing it; she’s losing her ability to control her emotions and her reactions in this moment. You can totally understand why. But I wonder, is the death of Molly’s family her greatest fear? Has it always been her greatest fear? Or is that circumstantial because of the war?
Andrew: I think it’s circumstantial now more than ever. Yeah, I mean, there’s this impending war. She knows Voldemort is back, and that must have changed her feelings on this. But I think as a mother, naturally, yeah, you would be… losing a loved one, a family member, would be one of your greatest fears.
Eric: Well, it’s happened to Molly. Gideon and Fabian Pruitt, who are mentioned moments ago, were her brothers. Although it’s not mentioned that they were brothers when Moody names them, but they were. So Molly already knows what this is like to lose family to war, so it makes sense to me that this is at the very least as recently as the first war is when she would have gotten this as a boggart.
Laura: Yeah. Ultimately, Lupin comes in clutch, though, saves the day as he always does, and I feel like it’s so fitting to let Lupin be the one to do away with this boggart.
Andrew: Yeah. And I do really like the scene because as I said earlier, it puts things in perspective for Harry. It’s an important end cap to what happened in this chapter, and it’s a reminder of the dangers that lie ahead.
Micah: Yeah. And also, if we were to draw some parallels between Books 3 and Books 5, you just mentioned Lupin coming in to save the day and the whole boggart scene; I mean, that whole boggart scene plays itself out in Prisoner of Azkaban as well, so it’s a little bit of a throwback there. But I do like also the fact that… well, I don’t like the fact that Harry shows up at the very tail end on the floor dead, but it does reinforce this whole idea that Harry is family to the Weasleys, especially to Molly. And I thought for all of the grief that we’ve thrown Sirius’s way, and for as frustrated as Molly has been with him, he really does come through at the end of this chapter when he says, “What, do you think we would let your kids starve?”
Andrew: Right. But that’s what happens, I think, when you’re hysterical and really upset; you’re not thinking clearly. So it’s nice to see Moody…
Micah: Sirius.
Andrew: Sirius. Sorry.
Eric: Whatever his name is. Whoever that guy is.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, coming from him, I think it means more.
Andrew: Moody Sirius is what I meant. No, I’m kidding.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Sirius is kind of moody.
Eric: That works.
Laura: Well, and I think it’s also helpful that she is reminded that they’re in a much better position this time around, that they have way more on their side. They’re better organized. Last time around, Death Eaters were picking members of the Order off like it was nothing, so I think that goes a long way to reassuring her as well.
Superlative of the Week
Laura: But speaking of boggarts, for our question of the week to wrap our chapter discussion before we get into this week’s Lynx Line, I wanted to ask each member of our panel to answer what each of our boggarts would be. But that chapter ends on a dark note with how scary Molly’s boggart is, so I want to give a qualifier: It needs to be what would our boggart be within the context of Grimmauld Place?
Andrew: And I like that you’re framing it this way because we’ve talked about what each of our boggarts would be in the past on this show.
Eric: It’s the end of this show.
Andrew: So for me, it would be Fred and George popping in to my room when I’m just hanging out there, wanting to be left alone, reading. I don’t want to be bothered by them.
Eric: And they would bother you. They’re the ones who would go in on purpose…
Andrew: They bother everybody.
Eric: Yeah, well, you’d be like, “Hey, I’m busy.” And they’d be like, “So?”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: They’d be hard to shake. I thought of one: I’d hate to be confined in the desk the way the boggart was; that would… I’m picturing an antique roll top desk, which are pretty cool, but I’d hate to be stuck in one.
Micah: For me, it’s definitely those severed house-elf heads that are mounted on the wall.
Eric: Yep. Going to add to the collection.
Laura: You must not like it when you go places and establishments where people have actual animal heads hanging on their walls.
Micah: Deer heads. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah. For me, it would be all mentions of mold. The entire time we’ve been at Grimmauld Place, it is moldy, it is grubby, it is dank, it is cold, and that whole vibe is disgusting to me, so my boggart is the mold.
Eric: It’s a bacterial nightmare!
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Rex: And my boggart, as someone who just does not like loud sounds, would be Mrs. Black’s portrait that screams.
Andrew: Yeah, especially in your own home. You don’t want that. You want peace in your home.
Eric: Not unless it’s an alarm clock. I would rig up a device to pull the curtain back at the right moment, and it’d be like, the only way to shut it up would be to physically go downstairs. It actually would be the perfect alarm.
Laura: Awesome. Well, thanks, y’all, for that.
Lynx Line
Laura: And now we are going to turn to our Lynx Line, which is our newest benefit on Patreon. Thank you so much to all of those who support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast for answering this week’s question. And I had to ask the patrons – because I knew we were going to have opinions, but I want to showcase theirs – should Dumbledore have made Harry a prefect instead of Ron? Why or why not? I was asking for supporting detail, and y’all gave it.
Andrew: Carlee said,
“As a music teacher, I often make decisions like these myself. Soloists at a concert, all-county delegates, special parts in a song, etc. I hate auditions because breaking little hearts is the worst! But it must be done, so choose I must. Sometimes I pick the student with the best sound and confidence. Sometimes I pick the student who auditioned because he wanted to try something new, or the student I know will work hardest to memorize their part, or the girl who doesn’t get a chance to shine anywhere else. Everything I do is with an eye toward education, not perfection. My choice would have been Neville (or Dean, but we don’t know much about him as readers). Neville needs the boost, his behavior is worlds above Harry’s and Ron’s, and it would give him the respect he so often misses out on from the others in his House. That being said, I can say Ron was probably chosen for similar reasons. I would have put Neville above Ron due to behavior, but maybe it’s like Lupin’s theory that Dumbledore had hoped he’d have some influence over James and Sirius.”
Eric: I love that. This is a great just insight. I really want to thank you, Carlee, for putting that in as far as how do you really give something to a student? And seeing that the results vary and that the goals are more, like you said, education over perfection is so excellent. Zachary wrote,
“Given Harry’s unpredictability, I think Ron was the obvious choice, especially with everything that’s going on in Harry’s life. We need to remember that, save for the Goblet of Fire, Ron has always been the most level-headed of the trio, and has consistently been the glue that holds them all together. Book Ron doesn’t get near as much credit as he should. He is nowhere near the person Percy is, but still knows how to keep his family in line at times.”
Laura: Agreed. Rex, I think you’re going to like this one from Eleanor. Eleanor says,
“No. This is one of the things Dumbledore gets absolutely right (well, in relation to Harry and Ron). Ron needs encouragement. He needs someone to show faith in him. He’s been overlooked his whole life. He needs to be seen. The only better choice would have been Neville. As for the rule-breaking, who was Head Boy? James Potter, not known for his obedience. Dumbledore seems to pick his student ambassadors as much for what it will do for them as anything else.”
So I had forgotten about this. Was this a book-ism or was this a movie-ism, that James Potter was Head Boy? I can’t remember.
Rex: It was in the movie for sure.
Laura: I know it was in the movie; I just can’t remember if it was also in the book.
Andrew: Apparently Hagrid did tell that to Harry in the book.
Laura: So I like how they kind of gaslight Harry here. They’re like, “Oh, your dad wasn’t a prefect.”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And then a couple years later, it’s like, “He was Head Boy.”
Andrew: And Lily was Head Girl.
Eric: It’s just a good thing that Harry doesn’t go to Hogwarts in year seven so that he doesn’t need to worry about somebody else being chosen as Head Boy over him.
Micah: Leah says,
“I think any other headmaster would have gone with Harry, specifically because Harry is the epitome of a model Gryffindor. He’s a great role model with all of his heroic/good/brave endeavors. He has good grades; we only consider them average compared to Hermione. But it’s Dumbledore, and he’s busy playing master manipulator, so I think part of the decision process was genuinely feeling bad about giving Harry more ish to do on top of what he knows he’s about to ask Harry to do. Or maybe playing wingman in Ron and Hermione’s relationship with them both being prefects together.”
Eric: Yep.
Rex: Cassandra says,
“Not Harry. We can see a teensy bit of conceit growing in Harry already. It’s good for him to realize that other people also have strengths.”
Eric: Yeah, that’s well said. That’s well said.
Andrew: And Justin says,
“Of course not. If Voldemort did possess Harry as Dumbledore feared, you can’t have a possessed Harry walking around the castle with extra permissions.”
Eric: Oh my God, I didn’t even think about this! Yeah, that’s wild, because wasn’t Riddle prefect or Head Boy?
Rex: Or both, maybe. Who knows?
Eric: Or both, yeah. Jiggly Jane says,
“Welp, I’m seeing a lot of Harry haters here. I’m going to go against the grain and say yes. Harry definitely deserved it more, and I’ve never been much of a Ron fan. He’s a good friend, but a dorky sidekick. Like Kingsley says in the book, choosing Harry would have shown confidence in Harry, and not alienate him so much.”
As we go on with this, I can appreciate Rex’s position more, which is not Harry or Ron, but neither. [laughs]
Micah: Mayur says,
“Absolutely not. There’s no way he could have given the job the attention and care it requires. With all the stuff going on that year, the Gryffindors deserve a prefect that isn’t distracted by Voldemort and lessons with Dumbledore.”
Eric: Wow.
Laura: Yeah, fair enough. Krysten adds,
“Heroism aside, there isn’t a single school year up to this point where the three of them didn’t break the rules. They get away with everything, so truthfully, I don’t think any of the trio deserved it. But since it had to be one of the golden trio, I think Ron needed the confidence boost, so that’s who I would have picked if forced.”
Andrew: And lastly, Rachel said,
“I’m loving seeing other comments that it should have been Dean Thomas, because that’s exactly what I was going to say. He seems responsible, and a good student. Maybe a little on the quiet side, I don’t know if he’d have wanted the role, but I think he’d have been a good choice. I think it was wise of Dumbledore not to put the extra attention, title, or responsibility on Harry, recognizing he was going through a lot.”
Yeah, so it’s not really Harry hate; it’s just we have some concerns, some valid concerns. Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And speaking of participation, it’s now time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question was: The UK judicial system established a Supreme Court in 2009, but prior to that, what was the highest court in the UK? And the correct answer was House of Lords. So 71% of people said they didn’t look it up, and correct answers were submitted by 99 problems but a Snitch ain’t one…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: … A Healthy Breeze; Bort Voldemort; Buff Daddy; CatTheRavenclawPrefect; George the next door neighbor; Happy Charmander; Hermione’s poor, overfilled and overworked talking homework planner; Judge Mental Fudge… ha. Lisa; Mirror, mirror, on the wall, which one of the mirrors will roast me best of all?; Rawenpuff from Sweden; supermegafoxyawesomehot; Toad McToadface; and “Up until this point, I thought the bit was called Quizzage. I only now see that it’s called Quizzitch, and that makes much more sense.” Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What fountain gets the most money thrown into it per year? It is an excess of 1 million of the currency. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, and while you’re on the website, check out transcripts and all sorts of fun things, including our must listens page. And again, it’s just that little button in the nav.
Andrew: You can also check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. In the latest What the Hype?! episodes, we discuss our favorite Christmas movies, and we catch up on listener feedback, then over on Millennial that was another listener feedback-oriented episode, and we discuss anonymous confessionals we receive from our listeners. One person asked, “Am I a creep for randomly winking at people?” Yes.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: These shows are brought to you by Muggles like you; listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting, and there are several great ways to help us out. You can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast shirts, hoodies, glassware, hats, and more. Ask Santa to shop there for you as well. You can also ask Santa or a loved one in your life to visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast/gift, so they can send you a Patreon membership this holiday season. And speaking of the holidays, we have a new bonus MuggleCast coming up this week in which we discuss: Are the Harry Potter movies truly Christmas movies? We’ll explore that and the Christmassy moments in today’s bonus MuggleCast. Rex, thanks for joining us today.
Rex: Yeah, thank you for having me. This was so much fun.
Andrew: Good, yeah. Listeners, if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and we’d appreciate a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: I’m Laura.
Rex: And I’m Rex.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.
Laura: Bye.