Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #446, Going Rogue (OOTP 11, The Sorting Hat’s New Song)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. This is Episode 446. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: This is our penultimate episode of the year, and it will be our final Chapter by Chapter of the year. Actually, interestingly enough, as many of our listeners know, we started Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter way back in 2011. Episode 241 was our final Chapter by Chapter for Book 5, and it was “Luna Lovegood,” that chapter.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: So from this episode onward, it’s going to be all new Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter. [laughs] We actually have a confession: We’ve actually just been copying and pasting our notes from 2011 into the new docs.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: That’s what I was actually just going to say, Andrew, that everybody thinks I’ve done such a great job planning these episodes, but really, all I’ve done is go back to past Google Docs and copy/paste over.
Andrew: You actually admitted a couple weeks ago that you just used points from an old doc, to us privately. How dare you?
Micah: Well, can you plagiarize yourself?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: No, I guess not.
Micah: I would say that what I did was go in and take points that I thought would add to the great conversation that I had already created for last week’s episode.
Andrew: Yes, yes, so it’s better than ever.
Eric: Yeah, and there’s value in revisiting the same topic ten years apart. That’s pretty cool.
Andrew: I did look at a couple of the notes from our old Chapter by Chapter Order of the Phoenix discussions, and we were basically doing the same thing. I mean, of course we are, because we’re talking about the same chapters.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Still had the same thoughts; maybe we were a little wiser the second time. But anyway, we stopped doing Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter back in 2011 for reasons we still do not recall, so this time, we’re actually going to stick it out and complete it.
Micah: By the way, given that we are in the holiday season, I actually with work went out to volunteer yesterday – we do it every year – and it was a lot of fun. We went to a third grade class, and we were tasked with building gingerbread houses. Now, you can imagine what it’s like trying to build gingerbread houses with third graders. All they want to do is eat the gingerbread house materials…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: … and then they get all wired, and you’re with them for several hours. It’s a great experience; I recommend everybody do it.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: It also gives me a great appreciation for teachers who have to live day in and day out with that level of energy for hours on end, so Laura, I know that was something that you did for a period of time.
Laura: Mhmm.
Micah: But anyway, I sat down at the table with my group, and next to me was this young 8-year-old girl named Eva – who by far built the best house, at least at our table – and she started talking to me about how much she likes Harry Potter. And so we got into a conversation, and of course, I asked her, “Who’s your favorite character?” And she said Hermione, but she was surprised that Hermione was put into Gryffindor, and I asked her why, and she said, “Because she’s so smart.”
Andrew: [laughs] Ouch.
Micah: And I just thought that that was a lot of intuition on the part of a 8-year-old. And she told me her favorite professor was Lupin; she also liked Hagrid. And she had been to Orlando, and then as soon as I asked her whether or not she’d been to the theme park, she kind of lit up and she was like, “Have you been on the Gringotts ride?”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Aww.
Micah: It was just so, so cool to see somebody that young who was so into Harry Potter.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s really cute. And then you thought about recommending MuggleCast, but then you remember we get a little inappropriate on the show from time to time.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Right.
Micah: Maybe she could go back and listen to the early episodes. That’d be okay.
Andrew: When we were 8 years old? [laughs]
Micah: When we were 8 years old, yeah. But yeah, very cute. Had a great time.
Andrew: That’s great.
Micah: I actually posted a video up on on Twitter, which MuggleCast retweeted.
Andrew: I’m a little curious; somebody that young, was she reading the illustrated editions or the real books?
Micah: Good question.
Andrew: Don’t know?
Micah: I did not ask.
Andrew: Okay.
Micah: We’ll have to have her on the show and follow up on some of these questions.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But she does watch the movies.
Andrew: Cool.
Micah: She says she’s up to… she hasn’t finished the series yet. She’s on Half-Blood Prince.
Eric: So she’s 8 years old, which means she was born the year that we last finished Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter.
Andrew: Oh gosh, that’s disturbing.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Oh, man. That’s really disturbing.
Laura: Yep. I was going to say, if y’all want to feel old, Eva didn’t exist when we started this show.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: For another six years, yeah.
Micah: And even better, she said the rule in her house is that you have to read the book before you watch the movie.
Eric: Nice.
Andrew: Oh, that is a great household.
Laura: Oh, man, those are awesome parents.
Eric: Parenting done right.
Andrew: Good stuff. We also got this email from Kayla:
“Hey, MuggleCasters. Last night, I went on a Harry Potter booze cruise, and ship was lit.”
Micah: [laughs] We just went from one extreme to the other, by the way.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Innocent girl to party girl on a cruise ship.
“Ship was lit. Had way too many butterbeers, but still somehow managed to score 100% on trivia, but so did three others. The tie breaker? Albus Dumbledore’s full name. In my inebriated state, I still managed to get his full name correct, and I think I owe it all to you! I won the Triwizard cup, and obviously had them fill it up with more butterbeer!”
[Eric laughs]
“The bar witch was so freaking excited to make one in that cup. Thanks, MuggleCast, for contributing to my epic takedown! 20 points to Gryffindor!”
Andrew: That’s fantastic, Kayla. [laughs]
Laura: I love that.
Eric: Hey, hope Kayla got home safely afterwards.
Laura: I want to know about this Harry Potter booze cruise.
Andrew: Yeah, what is that?
Micah: Can we do this together in 2020, Andrew?
Andrew: Sure.
Laura: Yes, I would love to do this.
Andrew: I’ve never been on a cruise, so that would be exciting for me.
Laura: Ooh, it’s fun.
Micah: I love how the bartender is called the bar witch.
Andrew: Yeah, right. Kayla didn’t have to say that, but she is in character.
Eric: In character. Super stoked. Congratulations, and congratulations to the other people who got 100%. That’s pretty cool, right?
Andrew: Yeah, some smart people on that boat.
Eric: I mean, Andrew, you and I know how hard it is to get ahead at… [laughs] Some of these questions are a little wonky.
Andrew: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Eric: But good for them.
Andrew: That is a good idea. Let’s go next year before Warner Bros. starts shutting down these Harry Potter cruises. I can’t imagine them being very cool with that. [laughs]
Eric: Agreed, agreed, agreed. And still in the holiday spirit, I actually came across a book I want to recommend, or two books, but one of them is specifically for Harry Potter fans, and that’s called Law Made Fun Through Harry Potter’s Adventures: 99 Lessons in Law from the Wizarding World for Fans of All Ages, and it’s by Karen Morris, Esquire and Bradley S. Carroll, Esquire. This book was sent to me as part of a review; it was like a review copy, and I read it. But I went through it, and I was like, “Oh my God, this is amazing.” They basically take all the instances in all the Harry Potter books that have basically a tie-in to real world law. So for instance, bank robbery, [laughs] because Harry Potter… I often forget, but yeah, they rob a bank. They break into Bellatrix’s vault, and it talks about the real world rules and laws and punishments for that sort of thing. And there’s also obviously a lot to do with Book 5, which is why I’m recommending it. There’s a lot to do with government setting the curriculum of schools, of public schools, and a lot of really interesting lessons. And none of it is very heady; they manage to break it down into the segments that make the most sense. So I read this book and I loved it, and I highly recommend it. The Kindle version is only $3.99.
Andrew: Cool.
Micah: I’m going to get this for Andrew because I guarantee that there’s something in there about Hogwarts being a security nightmare.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Thank you. I would like to read more about this urgent issue.
Eric: So that was definitely something I wanted to throw in for any last minute Christmas gift givers. And then there’s another book that I wrote something for and I’m in…
Andrew: Oooh.
Eric: … called Pod Life: Podcasters’ Stories, and I tell, in this book, the story of how I first joined MuggleCast.
Andrew: Nice.
Eric: But it’s a bunch of stories. If anybody out there is looking to start a podcast, this is a great… there’s 20 other people who wrote as well how they started their podcasts, and it’s a local sort of Chicago podcast group called the Southgate Media Group that put this all together. And it’s just really inspiring stories. Also, every podcast is way different, and everybody comes at it for way different reasons, so it’s also an inspiring look.
Andrew: Cool. It’s too bad you didn’t get to write in this book next year, because you could retell your time on the Harry Potter booze cruise that we’re taking.
Eric: I’m sure that would be worth its own book. You and I can write a book.
Andrew: Sure.
Eric: Or all four of us can collaborate. [laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. We’re diving into Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “The Sorting Hat’s New Song,” and we will start with our seven-word summary. Umbridge…
Laura: … takes…
Micah: … Dumbledore’s…
Eric: … spotlight…
Andrew: … down…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: … during…
Micah: … dinner.
Andrew: Cool!
Laura: There we go.
Andrew: “Away” would have been easy for me to say, but I wanted to screw with y’all.
Laura: That’s why I chose “takes.”
Eric: Yeah, “Umbridge takes” is very devious for sure.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Eric: But okay, so this chapter picks up right where the last one left off. The trio and Neville and Ginny and Luna are in a carriage heading up to Hogwarts. Harry is a little disturbed by what he sees in the Thestrals, but he’s also still disturbed and can’t get over what he doesn’t see in Hagrid. And Ginny asks… I mean, nobody’s going to talk about it until Ginny says, “Hey, what is Grubbly-Plank doing back? Is she replacing Hagrid?” And it comes to light… of course, last chapter was “Luna Lovegood,” and Luna tells some uncomfortable truths, but Luna has the brashness to state that Hagrid is a joke of a teacher to Ravenclaws. Like, “You don’t actually think that he’s good, right?” And it’s funny to see how the cards fall, because Harry and Ron and Ginny all jump to the defense, “Oh yeah, he’s great,” and Hermione, bless her, wants to be able to do that, but kind of falters a little bit. And I thought it was interesting to comment on how the loyalties that these kids have to Hagrid really affect their judgment. I mean, it’s just a tiny conversation, but seeing Harry and Ron really jump – and Ginny, too; we don’t know what her relationship with Hagrid is – to really jump to his defense, and even Hermione is like, “Well, Luna kind of has a point, in a way.”
Andrew: Yeah, it’s like when you want to support your friend even though you know that maybe what they’re doing they’re not that great at, but of course, you’re going to go to their concert anyway, or go check out their podcast, or read their book. [laughs]
Eric: Is that a reference to the book that I just…? [laughs]
Andrew: Of course not. I haven’t read it yet, but I can’t wait to rave about your work.
Eric: Okay, thank you.
Andrew: It really stings, and I kind of found it inappropriate, but I guess Luna is unfiltered that way.
Laura: Also, this just reminds me – and I feel like we’ve all probably had this experience before – of having a teacher that you like on a personal level very much, but recognizing that they’re not the greatest teacher.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Laura: And I think this is the first time that this group is being called to the floor to acknowledge that. Of course, they all have the knowledge that Hagrid was wrongly forced to drop out of Hogwarts, so he was educationally stunted over something that was not his fault, so they’re probably unknowingly cutting him a lot of slack, deservedly so, but that’s probably context that somebody like Luna wouldn’t have.
Eric: That’s true.
Micah: That’s a great point, because you wonder what kind of student Hagrid actually was when he was at Hogwarts prior to him getting expelled. And Eric, I think the point that you raise about loyalty affecting judgment is a good one, but as we see throughout the course, really, of this chapter and the entire book, the staff that Dumbledore has put into place here is questionable. Their qualifications are not… they don’t meet a certain standard in a lot of cases that you would want if you had kids and your kids were going to school. Hagrid is a teacher that I think very much leads with his heart, and there’s good intention behind what he does, but I don’t know that he’s qualified to teach, and I think that Luna raising this point is a very good one. And even going back to Prisoner of Azkaban where he first takes over this role – say what you want about Draco and him being antagonistic – if Hagrid was a good teacher, he would have been paying attention to what was going on…
Eric: Exactly.
Micah: … and maybe that incident with Buckbeak doesn’t happen, and I think that it just speaks to his ability to teach in that sense. So I tend to agree with Luna; I do think he’s a bit of a joke of a teacher who just kind of filled a role that was needed.
Eric: Yeah, I mean, you really can’t blame a Ravenclaw in Luna for being excited at the prospect of Grubbly-Plank. Ginny has some kind of weird thing against her, but we just don’t know what the Ravenclaws’ lessons with Hagrid were. I think Hagrid… we probably already know he kind of fails to communicate the importance of the creature that he’s teaching, or gives them a too dangerous creature that they can’t handle, so…
Micah: And that goes to Andrew’s point of being a security nightmare.
Eric: Oh, total security nightmare.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: Because you have a professor that doesn’t understand the danger of some of these creatures that he’s trying to teach about, and so if he’s not doing it safely from a distance, then he’s not protecting these young students who need to be protected; let’s face it. I guarantee you there’s somebody that we grew up with that all of us know that probably would have done the same thing that Draco did.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Micah: And so it’s just because we don’t like Draco that we’re a little bit quicker to judge, but I think some of that blame and responsibility does fall on Hagrid for what happened.
Eric: Well, it’s just so interesting starting the chapter on this argument, because it’s almost like we need an Umbridge in this school to kind of, I don’t know, say that these teachers aren’t good, right? Right?
Andrew: [laughs] Uh-oh.
[Micah laughs]
Laura: I will say, in fairness to Hagrid, I think some of this boils down also to a tendency towards teaching from an applied perspective, meaning that “I’m actually going to give you real world experience, and we’re not going to spend tons of time going over theory.” And I have a feeling, being a Ravenclaw myself, that Ravenclaws need a lot of that foundational theory in order to gain an understanding and a respect for the subject matter, and if they’re not getting that, then they’ll probably think it’s just a joke. And I’m guessing… actually, we know that Hagrid does not provide this.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, Hagrid’s value as a teacher, Trelawney’s value as a teacher, to Micah’s point about Dumbledore… I mean…
Andrew: Trelawney, yeah. That’s who I’ve also been thinking of during this discussion. I mean, she’s losing her mind in front of the students.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: But we know why he’s keeping her there, and it’s not necessarily because she’s a good teacher. [laughs]
Eric: Well, that’s the whole thing, isn’t it?
Andrew: Right.
Eric: In the bag there. It’s like… well, so Umbridge is here, somebody from the Ministry – we’ll obviously get to this in a minute – but it’s probably… on the surface, it’s not the worst thing in the world? We’ll talk.
Micah: Well, yeah, but I would also say it’d be interesting to go back and take a look at what professors were there prior to Dumbledore taking over as headmaster versus the professors that he has brought on to fulfill some of these roles, right? I would assume McGonagall, Flitwick, Sprout… they may have been there prior to him taking over the reins.
Andrew: And then Dumbledore comes in, and the zoo comes to town.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Big old circus at Hogwarts.
Micah: It’s basically Circus Arcanus at Hogwarts.
Laura: Well, I think that Dumbledore likes to give people chances.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Micah: I agree with that.
Laura: I mean, we even see this with Mundungus Fletcher; he tries to be very intentional about not holding people’s pasts against them.
Andrew: Yes.
Laura: And I think that he tries to allow people to have opportunities for redemption, and I think it’s pretty appropriate with Hagrid. I mean, what happened to him was not his fault.
Eric: You almost wonder why they didn’t put him back in school. A few years behind, but he could have completed.
Andrew: That would’ve been cool. It’s like that rumored Harry Potter video game that apparently is going to come out one day.
Eric: Oh.
Andrew: Where you’re a late bloomer in terms of getting your wizarding abilities. What if that was about Hagrid? That would be cool as hell.
Eric: That’d be great; I agree. So we get into the Great Hall where most of this chapter takes place, and Harry gets the distinct impression that Lavender and Parvati, who say hello to him, were talking about him only seconds before. He’s pretty sure because they are laughing and giggling and looking at him, but saying hello genuinely, but he gets the idea they’re talking about him. And it’s just that all of this stuff… we really see, not to put too fine a point on it, but at the end of this chapter, it’s even clearer how much damage the Ministry – or the Daily Prophet, perhaps, with the slant of the Ministry – has done to Harry’s rep.
Andrew: Right, and I want to talk about that later in the episode because I think Dumbledore should have been planning for this, because Harry, throughout this chapter – starting with this moment – is being treated poorly by his fellow students, and it’s not fair to Harry.
Eric: Yeah, it’s just kind of shitty that fellow Gryffindors were talking about him.
Micah: Do you think that’s what it is, though, or do you think it’s more of a girls’ conversation? Meaning they’re interested in Harry, beyond what’s being said.
Andrew: Like, “He’s cute.”
Laura: Well…
Eric: I think that’s next year.
Laura: Yeah, Parvati also did not have a good time with Harry at the Yule Ball the prior year, so I don’t know. I don’t know that it would necessarily be a positive conversation. I read it more as like gossip.
Eric: Yeah. But speaking of gossip, Laura, I think you asked last chapter or suggested that Ginny was super popular in her grade? She gets hailed over to the Gryffindor table. People are wanting to sit with her, and we don’t know any of those people.
Laura: Yep.
Eric: We don’t even know her dorm mates.
Laura: Right, because the trio are not the cool kids.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Despite what they may think, they are not.
Laura: We don’t get to see that vantage point. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah. This reminds me of my high school days. I was the loser and my sister was one of the cool kids. “Becca!”
Laura: Oh my God, same. [laughs]
Andrew: Really, your brother was the cool kid?
Laura: Yes, very much so.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Now the tables have turned.
Laura: That’s right. I’m a podcaster.
Andrew: Look who are podcasters now.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: So just before the Sorting Hat begins his yearly song – ballad, whatever you want to call it – Harry notices Umbridge is up on the dais, because he’s still looking for Hagrid. He was looking for… he saw the windows were shut and the lights were turned off in the cabin, and now Hagrid is not at the table. He notices Umbridge, and Ron and Hermione don’t know who that is, and it reminded me that we spent the beginning of this book… Harry is kind of really isolated; he had this whole knowledge of who she is, what she’s doing, that they did not because he had to go alone to those hearings. So just kind of an interesting thing.
Andrew: And then she turns and he’s like, “Oh my God, it’s the toad from the Ministry!”
Micah: Toad face.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: One thing I found interesting, though, as he was doing his assessment of who is up on the dais – and really just throughout the course of the entire chapter – is there’s no mention of Snape whatsoever. And I just found that given the history between the two of them – that he’s always thinking bad things about Snape, or has something negative to say about him – it’s like a total transition that the focus is now all on Umbridge.
Andrew: Oh yeah, that’s a good point. Because I think he’s extra on edge due to Hagrid’s absence, and then seeing this woman who he saw at the Ministry, and then, of course, what’s going on with the Prophet… lot of reason to be… Snape is old news.
Eric: [laughs] Yes. Yeah, for sure. So this song that the Sorting Hat sings… and it’s been a little while, I think, since we got a full Sorting Hat song. I could be wrong, but there’s a couple years where we miss them, because Harry misses them. But this one is a good one. It’s very groundbreaking, too, at least for the trio, because they’re not used to the Sorting Hat giving advice. So the Sorting Hat kind of steps beyond his scope here. He begins talking about the founders as usual, what they value – all this, all that – but then breaks into a “I’m not sure I should be doing this, Sorting you all,” kind of existential crisis. And it’s very interesting to see a hat have this kind of conflict within itself, in its song.
Andrew: It is. It was also… I still remember being very excited reading this book for the first time and seeing this chapter, “The Sorting Hat’s New Song.” Because of course, we all love the Sorting Hat, and to get a new tune from him, it was very tantalizing. I got very excited when I was flipping through that chapter list.
Eric: [laughs] Oh, I did that too. Did you do that thing where you read all the chapter names first?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. You just can’t resist, right? And it’s normally not too spoilery.
Eric: No, yeah, I did the same exact thing the first time I would read the Harry Potter books. But something about the founders I thought was interesting, and I hadn’t heard this before, but they were all friends. We knew they got along; they started Hogwarts. But Slytherin and Gryffindor in particular, the Sorting Hat says, “For were there such friends anywhere as Slytherin and Gryffindor?” And I’m thinking, this is like a Professor X/Magneto thing. They were best friends. They were really close, Slytherin and Gryffindor. And I mean, more to the point, all of them were really, really close. And I always thought of them as having just different personalities; after all, we know that the Houses are molded after the four fates of Greek theory and all of that, but I always thought of them as colleagues. I never really thought of them as friends. But the way that the Sorting Hat says it makes me think of like, James and Sirius.
Micah: I was going to say, Andrew, you can write your next “Never Sever Us” based upon this description.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: This reminded me very much of Dumbledore and Grindelwald and sort of the separation that takes place once the incident with Ariana happens, so just those kind of parallels. Clearly something happened between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and we know it’s related to just teaching pure-bloods, but yeah, there’s that one incident that finally drives two people apart that are extremely close because there’s this just such a strong difference of opinion.
Eric: That kind of just blew my mind there. Would you say that Dumbledore and Grindelwald are the difference between Gryffindor and Slytherin, heightened? Because they both seek power, but there’s some kind of a line somewhere?
Laura: Ooh, I think that’s interesting. We can maybe have a whole discussion about that, to be honest. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, no, for sure. That just mildly blew my mind because I wasn’t thinking… Grindelwald didn’t go to Hogwarts, as far as I know. He’s not necessarily been Sorted. But we’ll stow that in the pocket for later. But yeah, the Sorting Hat is talking about duels here between founders. Can you imagine if you were one of the first students at Hogwarts, and it’s been going great, you’re in year four or whatever, and all of a sudden, Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin are battling in the Entrance Hall, and you have to find a secret passage to go to the dungeons for your potions class? Kind of crazy stuff, right? Mommy and Daddy fighting?
Laura: I would love to get something like a short story – like a movie, even – depicting this dynamic. It’s so interesting to me. I actually… so I used to write a lot of Harry Potter fanfiction, but before I even worked for MuggleNet, so we’re talking when I was 15 years old. And I actually did a flashback in one of the fanfictions I wrote that showed the split of the Hogwarts founders, and in my headcanon, Slytherin and Ravenclaw were romantically involved, and the breaking point where Slytherin decided “Screw this, I’m leaving this school” was when Ravenclaw finally turned against him, after he was getting a cold shoulder from Gryffindor and Hufflepuff. And he leaves the school, he comes back to try and convince Rowena to go with him, she refuses, something undisclosed erupts in terms of an argument about this, and it ends with Rowena Ravenclaw dead.
Eric: Ooh.
Laura: And I was like, “Okay, this… whatever, I was basically a child when I wrote it.” But then years later, we found out the story about the Grey Lady and the Bloody Baron, and I was like, “Oh, this is kind of reflective of what I imagine happened, except…”
Micah: She stole your story. She went on to MuggleNet fanfiction and took what you wrote and just edited it slightly.
Laura: [laughs] I’m fine with it. If J.K. Rowling ever thought that anything I wrote was good enough to steal…
Micah: But Laura, the royalties.
Andrew: “Take it, Jo. I don’t care. Just give me an autograph.”
Laura: “Just pay for my student loans and we’ll call it square.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I think this really illustrates there is a lot of crossover, though, even between Slytherin and Ravenclaw. There’s a huge amount of overlap, I think, between the Houses, and the Sorting Hat, with a song that overall calls for unity more than ever, the Sorting Hat is like, “We’ve got to band together. I probably shouldn’t even be Sorting you, but I gotta.” It’s calling for unity, and there’s a really… it’s really important to focus on how they were all friends originally, and how “discord crept among us, feeding on our faults and fears.” And he also says, after Slytherin left, “never since the founders four were whittled down to three, have the Houses been united as they once were meant to be,” and he’s just talking about the strength of us overcoming our faults and fears to live in harmony. And I think that’s obviously a very noble goal, a noble dream for a hat to have, but it’s something we should all aspire to, ultimately.
Andrew: And of course, the hat here is recalling this story because the hat sees this happening in present day. And I’m also not surprised generally by how the founders fell apart, or at least Gryffindor and Slytherin did, because when they’re putting together such an important place like Hogwarts, naturally they’re going to run into some conflicts, and as we see in the real world all the time, these people that go into business together suddenly fall apart because they just see different visions for what they’re building.
Laura: Yeah, sometimes you just want to teach the brave at heart. Other times you want to go full Nazi and just set up your own pure-blooded student body.
Andrew: Right, and Godric was like, “Mm, not for me.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Different ideas.
Eric: The fun thing about reading it now is we know that Slytherin still had his secret chamber when he left. He still prepped for some kind of a post-apocalyptic, like, “I will still be able to have my influence even after I leave” garbage. It was very cunning of him, I guess I should say, to leave, but while still putting that all together.
Micah: Right. And I agree with Andrew; I think when you look at the words “discord crept among us, feeding on our faults and fears,” that’s exactly what’s happening right now. We even see it at the end of this chapter with Seamus and how he is interacting with Harry. This is amongst Gryffindors; this is not Gryffindor versus Slytherin. This is very much a mother’s influence on her child and how Seamus is then interacting with Harry as a result of that. And I think there’s no better representation of the discord than Umbridge being introduced in this chapter, so the fact that these Houses are going to need to band together is extremely important.
Eric: And that second quote about the founders four since they’re “whittled down to three” never were “as they were meant to be,” this seems to indicate that Slytherin is a necessary ingredient. My natural inclination when hearing about Slytherin’s pure-blood mania and how he had a falling out and left is “Screw him. Who cares? We don’t need him.” But according to the Sorting Hat, they actually did need him. Slytherin brought, with all of his racial bias and prejudices and all of that, he still represented a faction of the world, right? He still represented part of the student body that was being best served under his tutelage somehow and for some reason. We need him for unity. So I always… in terms of taking lessons from J.K. Rowling, this, I think, is a very teachable moment of maybe we should look into more of what it was that Slytherin brought, what were the good qualities that we can all agree on that were then forever lost when he left.
Laura: I felt like this was an interesting comparison to the Battle of Hogwarts, because when we think about that, things were really not looking very good. Towards the point where Harry was walking into the forest to face Voldemort, it seemed like all was lost, and really, it was Narcissa Malfoy, a Slytherin, who turned everything around by pretending that Harry was dead. If she hadn’t done that, who knows what would have happened?
Micah: Agree.
Eric: Yeah, and she was protecting her son. She had… her best interest was her own self-interest in preserving her family in doing that.
Micah: Definitely.
Eric: That’s a good point.
Micah: And I also think it’s why it was so important to bring Slughorn back into the fold in Half-Blood Prince. He was a former Head of Slytherin House; he then retakes that role once Snape becomes Headmaster in Deathly Hallows. But just knowing the character of Slughorn, we know that there’s certainly a lot of faults that we call attention to; his desire to sort of collect people. But at the end of the day, I think we see him as being this goodhearted individual, and joins into the battle as well. And I think when you’re talking about stressing unity, it’s also important to look at the fact that the Ministry is infiltrating Hogwarts, and you need unity when that is happening, and I think that is a microcosm of what’s happening in the larger wizarding world at this time, right? Voldemort and the Death Eaters are on the rise, and without that unity, what’s going to happen, right? What’s the end result going to be? So I think we’re getting a snapshot at Hogwarts of what’s really indicative of happening in the larger wizarding community.
Andrew: Knowing what we know now about Umbridge, it’s kind of shocking that she just sits there and takes in these comments from the Sorting Hat and does nothing to reprimand the Sorting Hat. [laughs] You would think she would torch that thing after what the hat just said.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: It goes completely against what she’s trying to do there. Or enact an Educational Decree where the Sorting Hat is banned from Hogwarts. Man, she just sits there. I wish J.K. Rowling added a comment here about Umbridge twitching while the Sorting Hat is making these remarks.
Eric: [laughs] Yeah.
Laura: I never got the impression that Umbridge was that smart.
Andrew: [laughs] Like she didn’t know what the hat was saying?
Laura: Maybe, or maybe she wasn’t even really paying attention. I could see her being somebody who is so hung up in wizarding tradition that to her, it’s just like, “Oh, this is the Sorting Hat. It’s going to do its thing. I’ve heard this at least seven times in my life; I’m just going to tune this out, because it’s just a hat.”
Andrew: [laughs] “Just a hat.” It’s more than a hat, Laura.
Laura: Yeah, but I could very much see her not having respect for it because it’s not a pure-blood wizard.
Andrew: Right.
Laura: We see that that’s how she treats everything.
Micah: I like that, and especially from a procedural standpoint, because I imagine in her mind, it’s like, “Okay, it’s time for the Sorting Hat. Once that’s done, I’m going to step in and say what I have to say.” And she may even be rehearsing what she’s going to say so that she nails it in her mind.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: One thing, though, about this is just given how relevant what the Sorting Hat is saying, I liked what Nearly Headless Nick said about the hat being able to pick up things because it sits in Dumbledore’s office. So I wonder if prior to each year, does Dumbledore just sit down with the hat and be like, “Hey, look, this is how it’s going to go this year, and make sure you hit these points, and I’ll put you on a really comfy pillow for the rest of the year.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “And I’ll brush you.”
Micah: “I’ll wash you.”
Andrew: “I’ll keep the office at your desired temperature.”
Eric: Oh my God. [laughs]
Andrew: “I’ll buy you another hat that you can hang out with.”
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Micah: So you can make baby skull caps or something like that.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: When two hats love each other…
Micah: I love that. That’s cool, the fact that the hat can pick up on things that are going on in Dumbledore’s office.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it once was Godric Gryffindor’s own hat, too, so you often wonder if it was biased in some way, but it appears not to have been. It’s doing the school a real solid. The problem is there isn’t very much follow-through that anyone’s doing to think deeper or do any more of a “Aha” after the Sorting Hat. Ron just says, “Branched out a bit this year, hasn’t it?” And everybody’s like, “Yeah, yeah, it kind of has. Interesting.” But there’s no follow-through. What does unity actually look like? And although we see that with Dumbledore’s Army later in the book, that’s unity under intense pressure, and if there had not been this outside pressure of Umbridge, I wonder if anybody would have actually reached across the aisle and reached across to the other Houses and really tried to follow the Sorting Hat’s advice, or would they just have forgotten it?
Laura: I think it’s hard because Sorting is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially Sorting as young as this society does. And I feel like even when we think about Houses, if somebody does something, we’ll be like, “Oh, well yeah, Andrew is a Gryffindor, so of course he would think that way.” And it’s kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy where you justify somebody’s behavior based on what House they’re in, and then people just tend to grow and accept truths about themselves based on their House identity, and that’s why you see things like… I think it’s later in this book where somebody expresses surprise that Hermione is not in Ravenclaw because of how smart she is, and it’s one of the things that I actually really admire about Hermione, is that when presented with the choice, she was like, “Well, I already got the books and the intelligence thing down, so I want to go this other path and see what comes of it, instead of just falling into what’s easy for me,” and we see Hermione actually develop as a character because she becomes far more brave over the course of the seven books than I think she would have if she’d been Sorted into Ravenclaw.
Micah: Absolutely.
Eric: Yeah, diversity strengthens these characters.
Micah: And to that point, Laura, she’s really the impetus behind Dumbledore’s Army, and I think that speaks to her courage.
Laura: Yep.
Eric: So it is nice that Nearly Headless Nick does say the school, or the hat itself, feels honor-bound to deliver this, and although times are dark, it is actually not the first time that the hat has issued a similar warning. So yeah, I’d be interested in learning what the previous circumstances surrounding that were.
Laura: Oh, I bet it totally did it during the Grindelwald conflict.
Eric: Yeah, the first wizarding war against Voldemort, a couple other times…
Andrew: “Oh, you may not think I’m pretty, but have you seen Grindelwald? Oh my God, that guy is really ugly.”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Looks just like Johnny Depp. It’s weird.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: So once the Sorting Hat’s song finishes, there’s a warm and welcome presence of Dumbledore, the headmaster, who steps up.
Andrew: Ahh.
Eric: What a sigh of relief. And I almost expect Harry to burst into flames and freak out, because he can’t see Dumbledore. There’s this whole thing of Dumbledore is employing this course of “Avoid him at all costs.” But for some reason, whatever scar connection is causing Harry to flip out isn’t active right now, and Harry is able to gain comfort, right? He’s seen the Thestrals.
Andrew: Yeah, I think Harry is a little in denial at this point in terms of his relationship with Dumbledore, because then at the very end of the chapter, he’s like, “Me and Dumbledore are in this together,” and I’m thinking like, “Um, he’s blocked you. He’s ghosted you. It’s over for now.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: It’s kind of a weird setback or change of pace here for Harry to be so comforted by Dumbledore.
Andrew: Harry should have stood up in this moment and said, “Hey, Dumbledore, can we finally talk, please? Please?” And Filch escorts him out.
Eric: [laughs] Oh, man.
Andrew: Dumbledore calls for security. Pulls Harry away. [laughs]
Eric: But again, it’s the unity over common enemy, because although Harry is feeling comforted, weirdly, by Dumbledore’s presence, Dumbledore gets interrupted in his announcements, and then half the school is like, “Clearly, this woman does not know how things are done at Hogwarts.” But Professor Umbridge, Dolores Jane Umbridge, steps up and takes the opportunity to deliver her Magnum Opus to this point, her speech about prohibiting what needs to be prohibited. It’s crazy that she inter… but it’s a perfect introduction to this character, because she’s all fake sweetness and thanks Dumbledore so kindly for the introduction and invitation that he didn’t give to give a speech, and then she gives a speech!
Andrew: “And we’re going to do things my way. I don’t care if Dumbledore is talking right now. This is my school now.”
Eric: Yep. And it’s just amazing how much, I want to say, gaslighting takes place during Umbridge’s speech. She says things like, “Looking at all of your happy, smiling faces,” and Harry, who’s meanwhile point by point disagreeing and taking down – his inner monologue is really on fire right now – looks around and is like, “Nobody’s smiling. Nobody’s smiling back at Umbridge.” This is a blatant lie, and we’re just seeing that Umbridge is very much… she is able to look in the face of something and lie to her own self and everyone else as to what that face is, and here is someone who is so ignorant as to the return of Voldemort that she’s becoming dangerous to everyone. She’s a danger to everyone, and ignoring the facts that we know to be true.
Micah: Do you think she sent a note back to Fudge that night telling him how all the students were so happy that she was there and they were smiling back at her?
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Micah: I agree to some extent, but I also think that, given the setting, there has to be a little bit of embellishment, because remember, she’s talking to kids, right? So to say, “Oh, all of your smiling faces,” I get that that’s complete BS, but at the same time, this is a adult speaking to children, and so I wonder if we can look at it through that lens at all.
Eric: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, we’ve definitely… as a student, I had teachers do that all the time.
Micah: Right, exactly. I also wondered, was this payback for how Dumbledore showed up Fudge during Harry’s hearing…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: … that she was going to just insert herself into the middle of Dumbledore’s opening speech?
Eric: Probably.
Andrew: Yeah, and as we spoke about a few chapters ago, Umbridge’s presence may be a direct result of that taunting little line that he had during the trial when he said, “I don’t believe the Ministry has any control over Hogwarts,” and so yeah, I think interrupting Dumbledore may also be a result of his entrance at the trial.
Eric: Yeah, yeah, it’s a real power move, for sure.
Andrew: Do you think Dumbledore should have clapped back? Or just to avoid a scene, just let it go?
Micah: I think he played it just right, quite honestly.
Eric and Laura: Yep.
Micah: I think in that situation, because it was so unexpected, he understood exactly what was going on, and to make a scene wouldn’t have done anything for him. It probably wouldn’t have come across very well to the students. And then also, Harry does a very good job of picking up the reactions and the true feelings of some of the other professors. I think it’s noted how McGonagall responds just in her facial expressions several times during Umbridge’s speech.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Sprout also. So I think Harry, he gets what’s going on here.
Eric: So even though Harry was listening, nobody was listening more intently than Hermione, who of course – and this comes up in the movie, too – perfectly summarizes Umbridge’s speech as saying, “The Ministry is interfering at Hogwarts,” and part of me still thinks it’s about time, right? We’ve had some bad teachers. This is a very security nightmare.
Micah: Yeah, totally agree. I mean, to play a bit of devil’s advocate, aren’t they just filling a post that has a high turnover and that Dumbledore has had a bad track record of filling to date? We just talked about a couple professors who are questionable in Hagrid and Trelawney, and this post has had now five different teachers in the five years that Harry has been there. Hogwarts is a security nightmare, to Andrew’s point that he brings up all the time.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: It’s all of our points; don’t just give it to me.
Micah: Okay.
Andrew: We all are in agreement.
Eric: We all love hearing you say, “Security nightmare!”
Micah: You developed it. It’s your…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: We need an audio bite going into 2020, Andrew, of you saying that, that we can just play every time.
Andrew: Uh-huh. With sirens and stuff?
[Eric laughs]
Micah: With a little… yeah.
Andrew: I’ll think about that.
Micah: All right. Seems like you already thought about it.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But yeah, I’ll play devil’s advocate here. I agree with Eric. I think it’s about time the Ministry did something here, because Dumbledore, he doesn’t have his stuff together.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: And this is reflective of the push and pull that happens in our world with the relationship between government and educational institutions. So I think, for one, it depends on does Hogwarts receive funding from the Ministry? Do they get government funding?
Micah: That’s a great question.
Laura: Because if they do, then the Ministry has some right to be involved with the school; we could debate to what extent that should be. The other thing that I’ll say is that it’d be one thing if Umbridge was just filling the Defense Against the Dark Arts position, but in interrupting Dumbledore and giving this sweeping speech about educational reform, she’s made it very clear that that’s not really what she’s here to do; she’s here to try and influence how things work at the school on a macro level.
Micah: Right, and what scares me the most about this is that they’re interfering with something that these kids actually really need to learn. They need to learn it not just in theory, but in practice, especially given what… even if you put Voldemort aside, these kids need to learn how to be able to defend themselves in future situations, regardless of whether or not there are Death Eaters, and the fact that the Ministry is coming in and trying to essentially stunt their growth in this space, I think, is extremely troubling.
Laura: This reminds me of some of the struggles that we’ve had in public schools in this country, where there have been lobbies on the state and local level to influence curriculum to do away with things that make people uncomfortable, like science and also history. There was a prominent case out of Texas one or two years ago where a history textbook, instead of referring to African slaves as “slaves,” they called them “workers,” just trying to totally erase that very ugly chapter of American history because it makes people uncomfortable to think about. Well, you should be uncomfortable. That was a horrible thing.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yeah. And on the point of these students needing to defend themselves, I think one of the biggest arguments for why they would need to learn that type of thing is because the first wizarding war had only been about 16/17 years prior. It’s fresh in everybody’s memories. It’d be one thing if there has never been major conflict, but there has been, and quite recently, so to forget about that and act like it could never happen again this soon after is pretty foolish.
Eric: You’re right. It’s particularly dangerous that she’s coming for basically the students arming themselves, being able to defend themselves. And actually, what you were saying, Laura, reminds me of contraceptive teaching, right?
Laura: Yep.
Eric: To prevent teenage pregnancy. Nobody wants teenage pregnancy; it’s not a good thing. So teach these kids how to use contraceptives so that they don’t have to worry about that situation. But there’s people that want to do away with proper sex ed. in schools, so…
Laura: Right, and it’s not because their priority is to prevent their pregnancies; their priority is to prevent what they deem to be… well, they want to prevent underage sexual activity.
Eric: Right.
Laura: And there’s just… there’s a certain reality that comes with that. In my home state of Georgia, for example, we have abstinence-only education here. That’s what I went through when I was in high school. And yet, Georgia is number three in the country for teenage pregnancy and number one for repeat teenage pregnancy.
Eric: People aren’t being informed as to how things work…
Laura: Right.
Eric: … and when they’re ending up pregnant, it’s a huge burden on everybody, especially the mother, and it’s not a system that works. So Dolores Umbridge coming in and removing people’s ability to do things like even a simple Shield Charm or whatever it was that they were going to learn this year, and say, “Oh, if you read about it, you can do it,” that’s fundamentally false. And the Ministry is playing right into Voldemort’s hands, which I’m sure we’ll talk about this at length in the future chapters. We’re going to get at least a couple Umbridge classes.
Andrew: Well, just briefly on the point about does the Ministry fund Hogwarts? I know that J.K. Rowling tweeted two or three years ago that Hogwarts is tuition-free, so you would think that the government is funding school.
Eric: Yeah, and there are governors. There is a Board of Governors that Lucius Malfoy often bribes to make changes at Hogwarts, including the removal of the headmaster. And ultimately, this is the only school in Britain, presumably, so these are our children, right? These are the citizens of Britain’s children. There definitely needs to be some government oversight there, and there is some government oversight because otherwise, the government wouldn’t authorize Hogwarts as an institution. In return, they need to have some kind of control over the curriculum and who’s running it, and the style, for sure, and to ensure what laws are being followed as well.
Laura: And that also… I mean, it just… there’s so many real world scenarios that you can connect this to, and as a former teacher, I can say that one of the most frustrating things about being in education is having people on the government side of things trying to mandate things upon the institution when they themselves have no background in pedagogical theory or education, or have never stood in front of a classroom and taught before.
Eric: I’m reminded of No Child Left Behind, right? Which is… it imposes… threatens loss of funding for underperforming schools, without getting at the issue of why they’re underperforming and working to solve that crisis.
Laura: Well, or the fact that teachers will be penalized if a certain percentage of their students don’t perform well on standardized tests, when you consider the fact that a teacher has impact on maybe 30% of that student’s life, and they have this whole other life outside of the school that’s influencing them, but the onus is being put 100% on the teacher to make sure that student performs. It’s a real problem.
Eric: So definitely some interesting thoughts with Umbridge’s… what her being at Hogwarts means for the state of education. I really like that we kind of deep dived there. But following the feast, Harry has a surprise waiting in store for him up in the Gryffindor dormitory. Dean and Seamus are not the same Dean and Seamus that Harry knows and can rely on; at least Seamus isn’t, because he’s in a difficult position. I feel for Seamus here.
Andrew: Me too.
Eric: Thank you. Seamus’s mother has been really influenced, and frankly, let’s look at the facts. Dumbledore gave a speech at the end of the last year about Cedric Diggory’s death, saying Voldemort is back. He told everybody, “Voldemort is back,” but you go home from school and your crazy principal, who’s kind of a bit of a nutter, has told everybody Voldemort is back, but it’s not being reported in the news! And you have all summer for the Daily Prophet, for your main news source – like the New York Times, Chicago Sun Times, LA Times – everybody is saying Voldemort is not back, and you’re subject to months and months and months of “Voldemort is not back,” and nobody’s hearing Harry’s side of things. Who are you more apt and inclined to believe if you’re a person who always relied on these news organizations to tell you what was and what wasn’t in this world?
Andrew: And it doesn’t sit right with me that Dumbledore did not do anything. Or maybe he did foresee this situation coming up, I don’t know, but then to let Harry come back to Hogwarts and deal with all these people who are thinking that Harry made that whole story up about Cedric… I think he should have said something in his opening speech.
Eric: Ooh.
Andrew: Or maybe he didn’t because he was afraid of what Umbridge would do? But it just seems irresponsible of Dumbledore to let Harry hang like this, because he’s going to deal with this a lot, and it’s unfair for a teenager to go through.
Eric: I wonder if we need a Dumbledore Sucks counter to start…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: … because he’s really put a situation in Harry’s lap, like you say.
Andrew: We would need to start back in Book 1. That would be fun to do, though, in a loving way.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I do think Seamus is a bit of a prat, though, just the way that he’s acting towards Harry. He’s trying to dig out information that Harry clearly doesn’t want to provide, but also shouldn’t have to, because I don’t believe that him telling Seamus what happened in the graveyard is going to, in any way, alter Seamus’s opinion of him and Dumbledore at this time.
Andrew: I think it would. A face-to-face retelling of what happened? And to see the emotion in Harry’s face as he’s recalling this? It would definitely be difficult for Harry to do, but I mean, we see this in movies all the time. You have a heart to heart with somebody and then they believe you.
Micah: But should he have to, though? Because think of how many people, then, he would have to do that for.
Andrew: Well, so then they do this interview later in the book, which I think was a good idea. So no, he shouldn’t have these face-to-face, one-on-ones with everybody, but maybe just the people in his dorm? [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, the people he has to sleep next to all year. [laughs]
Andrew: Right, and Harry acknowledges that he never had the chance to tell the school what happened. So I think Harry does feel like that is necessary, or at least J.K. Rowling is trying to make the reader believe that that was necessary.
Micah: It’s just hard because I do see why Seamus would feel the way that he does. His mother obviously has a lot of influence on him, and she may be struggling herself to understand exactly what is going on, and she may not want to send her son back to a school where this old man is just rambling about the return of Dark wizards, and her son has to sleep in the same dormitory as Harry; I’m sure she knows that. And just given all the things that have befallen Harry over the course of these first couple of years he’s been at Hogwarts, maybe she feels like Hogwarts is a security nightmare.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: I do wonder, though, in the cases of these parents who think about not sending their kids back to school, would Seamus’s mother be considering sending him to a different wizarding school? Surely she wants him to be educated. [laughs]
Andrew: I think so, but what are the options? I don’t think we know of anything else in the UK, do we?
Laura: No, but he’d have to go to Beauxbatons or Durmstrang or Ilvermorny. Either way, he’s going to a different country.
Micah: What would they call him there? Shay-mu?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Wow.
Laura: Here in America where we don’t understand pronunciations of things, they would call him Seem-us.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: That’s what I was going to say because I definitely pronounced his name that way when I was first reading the books. [laughs] I’m just going to call you Sean for short. Seamus?
Micah: [laughs] But this is a tough scene, though, for Harry, because I think that he just doesn’t feel validated in any way, and he really hasn’t since the start of this book. You think of all the things that he’s gone through, and then he gets up to his dormitory; the reaction that he has when he comes into the Gryffindor common room is just one of comfort, he finally feels safe to some extent, and then that’s completely thrown in disarray once he goes up to his bed and he has this fight with Seamus, and it’s like no place he can go where he actually feels that he can get away from any of this. And I think that’s the continued isolation that we see him go through, and he’s been through in many instances already since this book started. And good on Neville, though. Finally somebody stands up for Harry.
Eric: Yeah, Neville. And Ron comes in with the saving, “Does anybody else have a problem with Harry?” And earlier in the chapter, J.K. Rowling referred to Ron as though he were a mildly amusing television program, and he’s definitely chewing on chicken while trying to speak to Nearly Headless Nick, who’s deathly sad that he can’t eat food anymore; he’s very insensitive. But he comes to Harry’s aid, and he is a really good friend to him. And I really appreciate Ron. I really appreciate Neville in the chapter’s end.
Laura: I do want to say there’s the scene that made me laugh in the middle of this whole tense argument when Seamus goes and sits in his four-poster and so angrily yanks his curtains that they all fall down.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: We’ve all had that moment, though, where we’re…
Laura: Oh, I was like, “That’s me.” That would totally happen to me, trying to make a point and just like, “Well, fine!” And then it all falls down.
Andrew: [laughs] Didn’t he…? Was it him who brought his wand to bed? That’s a little…
Eric: He should be this afraid.
Andrew: Man, he’s afraid somebody’s going to attack him in the night?
Micah: Yeah, just think about Sirius. He was able to get in there.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Criminals are able to get into… yeah. But I would just go back to what we said earlier, that this is a perfect representation of discord happening, not just amongst Harry with other Houses, but within his own House and with people who are close to him, and I think that just speaks to the current state of things right now for Harry.
Eric: Yeah, and it’s not like Seamus is like, “I won’t believe you. I won’t listen to reason.” It’s that Seamus and Dean, to their credit, it’s like, “Can you just give us a little bit more information as to what…?” And Harry shouldn’t have to. You’re right, you’re right. Harry should not have to, and he’s getting very triggered by the thought of this, and presumably still having nightmares about Voldemort’s return, which happened only three or four months ago. But they need that little bit of…
Andrew: Right.
Eric: They just need an opposing viewpoint, right? Like, “Just tell us something.”
Andrew: Yeah, right. And maybe Ron should have stepped in here and privately spoken with them. Come on, Ron. Be a good friend.
Eric: [laughs] So it is a bit concerning that Harry, again, is a little isolated here, and is just having to deal with some new problems in this new year, this new school year, which we’ll talk about more in the new year.
Laura: And I do like that this forces Harry to put himself in Dumbledore’s shoes and empathize with him a bit, and realize, “Oh, because Dumbledore believed me and took my side, he probably faced the same kind of situation with his peers.”
Eric: Yeah. I mean, Seamus brings up the Wizengamot and Dumbledore’s removal from that, and Seamus is seeing it as like, “Oh, this was this highfalutin government appointment in the government, and Dumbledore’s removal means that he wasn’t qualified,” but Seamus is failing to see the nuance there of “If the government is corrupt, leaving the institution is actually a good move that means good things and shows character.” So bit concerning there, but ultimately, Seamus’s argument kind of makes sense here. You hate it, but you can’t help but see where it came from.
Andrew: All right, well, I think we’re off to a good start with chapters we’ve never discussed here on MuggleCast before.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: It’s time for the Umbridge Suck count. At last check, Umbridge sucked seven times; I think we’re going to add a few to the board today. First of all, interrupting Dumbledore. And we didn’t do it earlier, but of course, she has that classic “Hem-hem” thing going on throughout the book, which was brilliantly brought to screen, I thought.
Micah: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: And when Emerson and I spoke to Imelda Staunton on the red carpet for Order of the Phoenix, Emerson very smartly asked her to do, “MuggleNet, hem-hem!”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: You could probably just get the audio from that.
Laura: No, and honestly, we have to say she was perfect casting.
Eric: Superb. Absolutely perfect. You look at somebody that’s a larger than life character in Umbridge, and you’re like, “How are they ever…?” And Slughorn is the same. “How are you ever going to bring this into a human level?” But Imelda Staunton absolutely nails it. It’s pitch perfect.
Laura: Yep. I do want to say she is far more attractive than the Umbridge that we get in the books, but that’s also Hollywood for you.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: You don’t think she looks like a toad in the films?
Laura: No.
Andrew: I’m sorry, Imelda. You weren’t toady enough. We didn’t like your portrayal.
Laura: [laughs] No, she was brilliant. I’ve also heard rumors that she’s apparently being considered to play the Queen, when they age her up the next time in The Crown.
Eric: I heard that too.
Andrew: Oh, cool.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, that would be amazing.
Eric: I’ve seen her other work, and it’s amazing. She’s always very, very good.
Andrew: So plus one for interrupting Dumbledore. Another point for boring everyone with her speech.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Except for Hermione; she was just scared. Another point for being so bold as to say everyone was smiling at her when they were not.
Laura: And then I said one for wearing a cardigan over her robes.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Like, what?
Andrew: Not a good look?
Eric: Hogwarts is a fashion nightmare!
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: But I just… I don’t… can you imagine how weird that would look? Why?
Andrew: That would look weird.
Laura: Yeah, your clothing goes under your robes. Get with it, Umbridge.
Andrew: [laughs] So that’s four. One…
[bell clanging sound effect]
Andrew: Two…
[bell clanging sound effect]
Andrew: Three…
[bell clanging sound effect]
Andrew: Four…
[bell clanging sound effect]
Andrew: Added to the board.
Eric: Amazing.
Micah: Up to 11.
Andrew: Yes. Let’s update that now so we don’t forget.
Micah: And I can’t imagine how high it’s going to go once we read the next chapter, because it is, in fact, all about her.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: God.
Connecting the Threads
Laura: All right, well, we have some threads to connect today. The first one is Ministry interference at Hogwarts; that’s really the theme of this book. But in Chapter 11 of Prisoner of Azkaban, we learn that Buckbeak has to appear before a committee for attacking Draco. This is at the insistence of Lucius Malfoy, who has a lot of influence over the government and is clearly paying people off in order to get what he wants to happen at Hogwarts. Then in Chapter 11 of Order of the Phoenix, Umbridge makes it clear in her speech that the Ministry plans to interfere with the school. We also have a thread to connect with Hagrid. So at the start of term feast, which in Prisoner of Azkaban which was Chapter 5, Hagrid was announced as the Care of Magical Creatures instructor. And then at the start of term feast in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, Hagrid is missing from the high table and Professor Grubbly-Plank is announced as the Care of Magical Teacher… Care of Magical Teachers? Care of Magical Creatures instructor.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Some of those teachers do need to be cared for.
Laura: They do need care.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: And then we also have a connection with Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers. Lupin, who protected Harry from a Dementor in Prisoner of Azkaban, is announced as the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher during the opening ceremony feast in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5. And then Umbridge, who actually sent Dementors after Harry, is announced as the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher during the opening feast in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11.
Eric: Wow. Good stuff.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Okay. My MVP of the Week is the Sorting Hat for risking death when he made that speech in front of Umbridge. I thought that took guts. And yes, the hat does have guts.
Micah: [laughs] My MVP goes to McGonagall because her facial expressions just said it all throughout Umbridge’s speech.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I liked the descriptions of her eyebrows.
Micah: Yeah, she’s just low-key savage. I’d love to know what she was thinking.
Laura: Yep. I gave mine to Neville for being the friend that Harry needed.
Andrew: Aww. Yeah, you couldn’t help but have a swell of pride for Neville and his grandmother when he stood up for Harry.
Eric: Agreed. And I gave mine to Hufflepuff Ernie Macmillan, who… [laughs] Harry, during Umbridge’s speech, he’s looking around, seeing nobody smiling. He sees Ernie Macmillan. It says he was “one of the few still staring at Professor Umbridge, but he was glassy-eyed and Harry was sure he was only pretending to listen in an attempt to live up to the new prefect’s badge gleaming on his chest.” So Ernie Macmillan is powering through, trying not to fall asleep and make a scene, and he succeeds.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yeah, Ernie Macmillan is all of us trying to be responsible.
[Everyone laughs]
Rename the Chapter
Micah: Time now for Rename the Chapter. I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Defense Against the Dark Arts: Take 5.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Laura: I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!”
Eric: Nice.
Micah: Do we have the audio?
[Pink Floyd’s “Another Brick in the Wall” plays]
Eric: I love that. I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Convenient passwords.”
[Micah laughs]
Eric: We learn that this year’s password is Neville’s gift. [laughs]
Micah: Okay, there’s not many times in the series where you can call J.K. Rowling a lazy writer.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: This is definitely one of them because…
Eric: Like, “Oh, Harry doesn’t know the password. Who’s going to save him? Oh, it’s Neville. Neville, what’s the password?” “Oh, you know how last chapter I told you I got Mimbulus Mimbletonia? It turns out it’s ‘Mimbulus Mimbletonia.'”
Andrew: [laughs] What is up with that?
Eric: Wow. Crazy.
Micah: And by the way, a quick J.K. Rowling update, because I know we’ve been talking about how she’s absent from Twitter? She was in New York this week.
Eric: Receiving an award.
Andrew: Did you say hi?
Micah: I did not, but actually, somebody I work with came up to me yesterday and they told me, “Hey, I was at this gala last night, and J.K. Rowling was there,” and she had a picture with J.K. Rowling.
Andrew: Oh, nice.
Micah: “Couldn’t you have taken me as your plus one? What the…?”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Could have given her a MuggleCast bookmark and a tote bag and a mug. [laughs]
Micah: Yep.
Andrew: We should send her a care package of all those things; see what happens.
Micah: We should.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: But at least we know she’s alive, so…
Andrew: [laughs] That’s good. Finally, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11, “Happy little faces. Hem-hem!”
Laura: Ugh, that just made me squirm.
Andrew: [in a high-pitched voice] “Hem-hem!”
Micah: [laughs] Was that Mickey Mouse?
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Cross between Mickey Mouse and Umbridge. If you have any feedback about today’s chapter discussion, we would love to hear from you. Email us, MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form at MuggleCast.com. And you can also send us a voice memo so we can hear you; just email it to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Or call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.
Quizzitch
Eric: And it’s time for Quizzitch. Last week’s question: Who is the first person Sorted into Gryffindor in Harry’s fifth year? The answer, of course, because the Sorting Hat in the books is alphabetical, the answer is Euan Abercrombie, or Abercrombie, comma, Euan.
Micah: [in a deep voice] Euan.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Where was that from? I feel like…
Eric: Oh, maybe Game of Thrones?
Andrew: Sounds Thrones-y.
Eric: There’s Maester Euan. Or Luwin. I’m confused. But anyway, correct answers were submitted by Sarah a.k.a. Weensie, Lara Catherine, Count Ravioli, Harry Potter Fan Zone participated…
Andrew: Excuse me? I love Andy.
Eric: Yeah!
Andrew: He’s playing now? Wow.
Eric: Yeah, they got in on the action. That was nuts.
Micah: Yeah, how is Andy?
Andrew: I don’t know.
Eric: Presumably, pretty good.
Andrew: I actually hear from him from time to time. Seems like he’s doing all right.
Eric: Hey, Andy. Hey, Harry Potter Fan Zone. How’s it going? Euan the Quidditch player, Lightning McJingles, Amber Forrester, Pronvie, Jason, and Marie, as well as others. Thank you to all who submitted. And actually, we can’t do a Quizzitch this week because there’s… our next episode is recording in 30 minutes…
Andrew: [laughs] Fair enough.
Eric: … so there’s going to be no opportunity for people… it wouldn’t be fair to hold another Quizzitch round, so there will be one on next week’s episode, but there’s not actually a next week’s question this time.
Andrew: Ahh, okay. Yeah, well, that makes sense. Yes, next week is our big Decade in Review for the Harry Potter fandom; we’re going to be reliving the biggest moments in fandom from the past ten years. It’s interesting, the decade began with the final two Harry Potter movies, and it ended with the first two Fantastic Beasts movies, and it’s really been a decade of transition in the wizarding world, so we’re going to talk about everything that has happened. It’s going to be fun. It’s going to be a great way to end the year. And do you guys know that MuggleCast ended and came back in the past decade? So it’s been very eventful for us as well.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: Yeah, it only took, what, one episode, was it? Didn’t we end and then we were back two weeks later?
Andrew: It was literally two weeks after we ended MuggleCast that J.K. Rowling announced Fantastic Beasts.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: We would love your support on Patreon; it is what keeps this show going. We are weekly because of our Patreon supporters. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can pledge, and in return, you will receive instant access to lots of benefits, including bonus MuggleCast. You will be able to also tune in as we are recording our livestreams, you will get ad-free MuggleCast, you will get access to our show notes, and a whole lot more. We will be announcing new benefits in the new year, so stay tuned, including our annual physical gift. And while we may not announce that one for a few months, we can tell you it’s going to be a good one, because 2020 is MuggleCast’s 15th anniversary.
[Laura gasps]
Andrew: So we’re very excited.
Laura: Oh my God, that makes me feel so old.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: MC15, baby! It almost rhymes.
Micah: Hashtag it.
Andrew: I love it. So thank you to everybody. Whether or not you are a Patreon supporter, we really appreciate that you listen to us, that you support us through following us, through listening to us, and maybe even pledging, so thank you, thank you, thank you. We are so grateful that you are a part of our lives, and we hope we’ve been giving you lots of joy over the past 15 years. So with that, thank you, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Goodbye!
Laura and Micah: Bye.