Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #681, Should We Feel Sorry for Petunia Dursley? And more MuggleMail
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: This week there’s no tricks, only treats.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: We’re recording on Halloween, as we’re busting open our Muggle Mailbag to take your questions on all things Harry Potter and our recent Chapter by Chapter discussions. I’m currently dressed as a podcaster for Halloween. Did you y’all see that? I’m wearing headphones; I’m wearing my MuggleCap.
Eric: [laughs] It’s honestly one of the best costumes you’ve ever had.
Micah: It’s a good look. I like it.
Andrew: Laura and Micah are actually dressed as voters, which is really sweet.
Micah: [laughs] We planned it.
Andrew: This episode is being released on Election Day. If you haven’t voted, Americans, make sure you go out and vote. And a reminder to everybody that the MuggleCap and other merchandise from MuggleCast is available in our recently launched MuggleCast merch store at MuggleCastMerch.com. We have T-shirts, we have sweaters, we have hoodies, we have hats, we have glassware, so check it all out. We do ship worldwide. A great holiday gift idea for people, if you’re looking for things for the wishlist. And once you receive your merch, be sure to tag us on social media, and we will share it. Thanks, everybody. It’s a great new way to support the show.
Eric: Yeah, already seen a lot of pics come in; people got their merchandise. Very, very good. It’s very touching, and they like it a lot.
Micah: And speaking of seeing a lot of things coming in, I’ve seen several of our patrons post about receiving their MuggleCast Collectors Club stickers.
Eric: Oooh.
Micah: They’ve gone out in the mail, so if you haven’t yet received them, keep an eye out for an owl that will be headed your way in the next couple of days.
Andrew: Micah, did you have to clean up a lot of owl poop in your owlery when you were shipping all those out?
Micah: Well, no, because it’s unseasonably warm here in New York; they were actually all just hanging out in the backyard, and so I didn’t have to worry about cleaning up anything at all. I just took all the post outside, and they just took off without any issue.
Eric: Love it.
Andrew: That’s great. Do you speak to the owls?
Micah: Of course.
Andrew: Do you go “Hoo-hoo”?
Micah: Well, no, they don’t like that. They find that patronizing if I actually have a conversation with them.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Yeah, it’s true. If you try and speak owl with a Long Island accent, it’s kind of offensive to them.
Laura: Andrew, I’m pretty sure you just insulted all owls’ mothers in owl hooting, so watch out.
Andrew: [laughs] Oh, they hated… one time I was sending stuff by owl, and they hated when I was going, “Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Who?”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Well, I hate that, too.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Fun fact about that song: It was the first song I ever downloaded on Napster.
Eric: Aww.
Andrew: Well, anyway, speaking of patrons, they have access to an exclusive Facebook group, and in it, one of our listeners, Brittney, organizes an annual holiday gift exchange, so patrons, don’t miss out. You can join the group at Facebook.com/groups/MuggleCastPatrons. You can also just search for it on Facebook. If you’re not a patron yet, it’s a great way to share some Harry Potter joy with fellow listeners each holiday season.
Muggle Mail
Andrew: So without further ado, let’s get into our Muggle Mail episode, and we’re going to start with a couple of voicemails. This first one is from Heather concerning the Cursed Child.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hi, I’m Heather. I’ve been a MuggleCast listener since 2006, and I have a response to your graveyard episode where you discuss the shortening runtime of Cursed Child on stage. I saw the Chicago version just a few days ago, and then last year, I also saw the London version, which is a two-parter with two and a half hours, then a two hour intermission, then two and a half more hours. And the thing I observed was the audience, how in the London production, it was almost all adults, and how in the Chicago production, it was almost all families with small children. So yes, I do agree with Laura that this was a corporate decision, because making accommodations for families with children who may not be able to sit still for five hours opens up an entirely new market of sales for the Cursed Child production.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: I mean, you think about a typical children’s movie, too; think about a Pixar movie. They’re what, an hour 45 minutes or so? Because they know kids don’t have the attention span. And I remember when we were talking about Cursed Child in its earliest days, one of our concerns was that a two-part show is a big commitment for somebody traveling to New York or London. I mean, you have to stay overnight, potentially, just to see the entire show, and that’s kind of ridiculous.
Micah: It is. I do like the point that Heather is making, though, in that maybe they are trying to appeal to a more family friendly audience with this Broadway show. When I saw Cursed Child just a couple weeks ago, I did notice more families there than maybe I would have otherwise anticipated. But it does make sense if you’re going to a two-part show, like the one that’s still in the West End of London, the chances of you taking a young child to that is relatively low because they’re not going to be able to sit through that long of a show. So I would, though, just add to that that I do think the visual effects probably entertain the kids much more than maybe what would go on in your normal Broadway show, because there is so much magic; there is so much fun stuff that’s happening in the theater. I don’t know that you necessarily get that with, let’s say, Aladdin or The Lion King, to try and maybe compare to something you might take a young kid to go see.
Andrew: All right, let’s listen to our other voicemail from Mikaela, concerning Hermione and grad school.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hi, MuggleCast. I thought you guys would appreciate this: I’m in the first year of my master’s program, and we have this project where we have to pick a fictional character to do a bio psychosocial assessment on, and I picked Hermione, so I’m getting to go very in-depth on Hermione’s character, and drawing on lots of MuggleCast episodes that I’ve listened to. But I appreciate you guys, and I love the podcast, and thanks for everything you do.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: Aww, that’s awesome. Glad to hear that the show’s helping.
Eric: Very cool.
Laura: Yeah, that’s amazing. Congrats on pursuing your graduate degree.
Micah: Very cool. I wonder how many papers, reports we’ve been cited in over the years.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I don’t know, but I have one book on podcasting that cited us that I keep behind me.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. There it is.
Andrew: Career Building Through Podcasting.
Eric: You had that in reach.
Andrew: This little book for high schoolers. Yeah, I think it’s kind of cool to have on display.
Eric: It’s pretty cool.
Micah: I’m curious, is podcast now an acceptable medium to cite in a report?
Laura: Yes.
Micah: It is?
Eric: Yeah, it has to be.
Laura: Yeah, it is. Now, there are lots of things that are acceptable to cite, and plenty of things that can be cited are not necessarily the best resources. But yeah, you can definitely cite podcasts, and ours is an excellent resource if you’re writing a paper about Harry Potter. [laughs]
Micah: Oh, 100%.
Eric: If anyone wants to write a thesis and include us and mention us by name, send it to us and we’ll send you a free T-shirt.
Micah: Well, that’s also why it’s so great that we have transcripts. Shout-out to Meg.
Eric: It is! Yeah, yeah, and all the latest episodes, as well as, I think at this point, all of the must listens on the Wall of Fame are all covered.
Micah: Wow. All right, well, let’s bust open this Muggle Mailbag. Laura, it’s your job this time.
Laura: All right. Well, getting into the mail bag, our first message comes from Julian, who writes in on the Wizengamot. And Julian says,
“Hey, y’all’s. Since you are on Order of the Phoenix, we will be hearing about the Wizengamot. I never once thought about the word, just accepting it as a wizarding world word, but about a year ago I decided to move to England, and with this move, learn a bit about English history, as it is also a little bit of my history. Long story short, it is derived from the word witenagamot. A witenagamot is a meeting of the witan. The witan is basically the king’s council around about 800-1000 AD. It was composed of noblemen and important people of the church at the time. They would come together from time to time to discuss happenings and give the king advice, and at times, even decide on lines of succession. Think of a bigger version of the small council in Game of Thrones, that meets a lot less often. Suddenly there feels to be more context of the word rooted in Muggle reality. If you want to delve even deeper, I highly recommend The British History Podcast, especially Episode 199 which covers the witan. But the interesting thing about the podcast as a whole is that every once in a while you see a bit of the wizarding world peppered in there. Shhh, the Muggles still haven’t figured it out yet. Thanks for all the hard work.”
Andrew: That’s awesome.
Laura: Julian, that is such a cool observation. I had no idea about that. Thank you for educating us.
Eric: It makes sense, too, that you would have… I think it was a progenitor to the modern day House of Lords in British Parliament, when I was researching, and yeah, it’s really good stuff. It makes sense to give noblemen stakes in your kingdom so that they support your laws, and for Fudge, I really wonder what that council is tasked with enforcing or doing for the Ministry, but that makes it… I think it lends even more important context to what Dumbledore’s risk was in telling all the members of the Wizengamot that Voldemort had returned.
Andrew: I think we could consider this a name origin.
[Name origin sound effect plays]
Laura: Yeah, I think so.
Andrew: Whoa!
Micah: I’m not even sure we had that one on the name origin section of MuggleNet back when I was managing it, many years ago.
Eric: I’ll update it right now.
Micah: Please do.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But yeah, very cool, Julian. Our next email comes from Kayla on Harry the hormonal Horcrux, and she says,
“In Episode 675 (Chapter 1 of Order of the Phoenix), you all were discussing Harry’s feelings of jealousy, isolation, and frustration while being stuck at the Dursleys’, and trying to decide if those feelings were being caused by the Horcrux. What I found interesting is that those are all the exact feelings Ron was experiencing in Deathly Hallows which caused him to leave Harry and Hermione. The circumstances were also very similar in that he felt like Harry was withholding information from him and that Harry and Hermione were spending more time together without him, leading to feelings of jealousy and isolation. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the Horcrux was playing a bigger role in Harry’s feelings in the first chapter of Order of the Phoenix as we see the same tactic used by the locket later in the series. Thanks for all you do to keep the fandom alive, and I’ve appreciated having you a part of my life since 2007 for when life gets overwhelming and I just need a break to enjoy some Harry Potter time.”
Eric: Love this from Kayla.
Andrew: That’s what we love about doing this podcast, too; it’s a nice break from the real world. So thank you, Kayla.
Eric: Yeah, but we’re finding some more juicy evidence in comparisons with this whole Harry/Horcrux thing. I really like it.
Andrew: Yeah, I think this is some not just juicy but hard evidence, too, that the Horcrux is at play here.
Eric: Makes a lot of sense. All right, our next Muggle Mail comes from Julian, who says,
“Hi, MuggleCasters! I find it cute that you all think that Dumbledore had a whole detail on Harry.”
[Laura laughs]
“I’m pretty sure he only had a skeleton crew, being Mrs. Figg and Mundungus, which is why Mundungus just took off. There was no one to replace or cover for him. Not excusing him, but Dumbledore should have known better. Harry wasn’t worth the resources because he was overly certain about the blood protection. That whole ‘smarter than everyone, bigger mistake’ scenario. Love the show.”
Eric: Okay! You guys, we’re cute.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I’ll take it.
Andrew: I think… I wasn’t surprised either if Dumbledore put a small crew around Harry. Otherwise, you’re risking being noticed if there’s a lot of people surrounding Harry. You’ve just got to keep a small group together so it’s incognito.
Eric: Well, there were no shortage of volunteers to come pick him up, according to what Moody said in the “Advance Guard” chapter, so I find it interesting if there was a shortage of people to volunteer for rotating shifts on Privet Drive.
Laura: Yeah, I wonder if maybe Dumbledore was trying to divvy up the tasks so that no one person or one group of people would know too much, right? So I could see him potentially not wanting as many people involved in Harry’s detail during the summer before he leaves, and then having a huge overlap with the people that are going to come take him away just in case the Order gets infiltrated. We see that he does do this throughout the series; he sort of breadcrumbs information to specific people at strategic times. This might be part of it.
Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point. I still don’t think we will ever find out who’s in the rear guard that shoots the sparks up that give Moody the clear, so there are more people just hanging around that we…
Andrew: It’s the B crew.
Eric: The B crew.
Andrew: They’re not as critical to the operation, in my opinion.
Micah: My issue isn’t so much that it was a skeleton crew; it’s that it’s an inept skeleton crew.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: They do what they can.
Andrew: The C team. We have the A team, the B team, the C team.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: They just hang out… the P team, because they hang out on Privet Drive.
Eric: More like C minus team, am I right?
Andrew: [laughs] All right, this next email comes from Clayton on “Should we feel sorry for Petunia?”
“Hey y’all, I’ve been rereading the books alongside yourselves. I had a couple of thoughts I would be interested to hear your opinions on. When I first read the books as a kid, Petunia’s treatment of Harry was shocking. As an adult, though, I can’t help but feel a bit sorry for her. I can’t imagine the trauma it must have caused, seeing her sister be lauded as a gifted young witch attending this exciting school to study magic while she sat in geometry class. Add to that the loss of the close bond Lily and Petunia shared, Lily and Snape’s relationship, and Snape’s treatment of Petunia, and it must have been a fairly difficult childhood. It certainly doesn’t excuse the abuse of Harry, but it does make her a much more interesting character to consider now that I’m an adult, and sheds some light on childhood trauma and how it shapes us. Secondly, there’s a scene in Chapter 6 of Chamber of Secrets that reminds me of Snape’s memory around the lake from Order of the Phoenix. In Chamber, the trio are sitting around outside while Hermione reads and Colin Creevey admires Harry and asks for his photo. This feels similar to Lupin reading under the tree while James and Sirius relax, Pettigrew amazed by James and his skills with the Snitch. The trio is then confronted by their nemesis Malfoy, just like how Snape arrives near the tree. In both books there is a group of onlookers, with only Lockhart in Book 2 sparing the fight we see in Book 5. Just two things that have stood out to me so far as I reread with a new perspective. Thanks for all you do. Y’all are definitely my favorite podcast!”
Andrew: Thank you to Clayton the Gryffindor.
Laura: Aw, that’s so sweet.
Eric: It’s a cool connection.
Andrew: I don’t think I’ve ever considered the fact that when Lily went to Hogwarts, Petunia lost her sister, her sister’s daily presence at home. That kind of blows my mind. I mean, that would be a huge bummer.
Eric: Yeah. It’s hard for me to… because in my head, I… well, Petunia made the choice to be jealous of Lily, and made the choice to resent her sister’s so-called giftedness, but you’re not really going to get over that. There’s not… I mean, put simply the way Clayton did, geometry class kind of blows. [laughs] So I don’t know that there… her parents would have had to do extra work to make sure, and instruct Petunia and comfort Petunia and give Petunia enough distractions, and then work to preserve the relationship, when Lily was home, between the two girls, and that probably didn’t happen. Petunia always felt like she was left out. She always felt like her sister was praised and loved more by her parents, and that is a failing of all of them, and not of Petunia.
Micah: And she was rejected. Let’s not forget that.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Micah: As soft and tender as Dumbledore likely was in his note back to Petunia, she didn’t make the cut, and that probably cut deeper in a lot of ways.
Andrew: Yeah. And I don’t think Petunia’s jealousy was a choice, Eric. I feel like…
Eric: It is, though. Right?
Andrew: Is it? I mean, isn’t that a natural feeling?
Eric: Yeah, because you could be happy… if you have a sibling who’s slated to win a Nobel Prize, are you going to be mad at them? Resentful of them? Or are you going to be happy for them?
Andrew: Right, yeah.
Eric: Or somebody who gets into all honors classes.
Andrew: I just think you can naturally be jealous, too. It’s out of your control, maybe? There’s ways to reduce the feeling of jealousy.
Eric: It’s a natural emotion. It’s a natural emotion, but to let it consume you or define your relationship is a choice, is what I’m saying.
Micah: Andrew is also more mature now. If that would have happened maybe when he was younger and his brother got… I assume it would be your brother who got the Nobel Prize.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Well, my sister maybe could, too.
Micah: No, but…
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Wow.
Laura: Yeah, shots fired.
Andrew: It was just my sister’s birthday less than a week ago. Happy Birthday, Becca. Micah thinks you’re an idiot.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: I’m kidding.
Micah: But you know what I’m saying.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. When you’re younger, you might have more jealous feelings towards your siblings if maybe they win the baseball game.
Eric: It’s a great point, too, because Lily died so young, they really didn’t get a chance to be adult siblings.
Laura: Right.
Eric: And I feel like even if you have troubled teen years together, the 20s-ish is probably when some of that gets resolved through conversation and further work on both parties. Lily died when she was 21, I think, so that didn’t get to happen.
Laura: That’s such a good point, because I even think about my own relationship with my brother, and when we were kids, we fought all the time. [laughs] We fought like dogs and cats all the time, and it wasn’t really until we both got older that we actually developed a closer sibling bond, and unfortunately, Lily and Petunia don’t get that chance, and I have to imagine Petunia has some regret mixed in there as well.
Micah: Probably. And I think that jealousy is what turns into spite later on, and while maybe the choice wasn’t there to be jealous when she was younger – maybe that was just a natural reaction – how she treats Harry now is fully under her control, and she chooses to treat him horribly.
Eric: Yeah. One thing, since we are busy all feeling very sad for Petunia right now, Legalize Gillyweed made a good point in the Discord, saying, “Dumbledore lost a sister too; wonder if he empathized with Petunia,” meaning when he wrote the note, too, knowing that he’s…
Micah: Well, then he should’ve let her into Hogwarts.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: But if she ain’t a witch, she ain’t a witch. There’s nothing you can do about that.
Eric: He lets Hagrid… well, he lets Filch… I don’t know. It doesn’t make much sense. Legalize Gillyweed also said, “RIP James and Lily, by the way. Anyone else grieve them today?” That’s right, Halloween is their deathday.
Andrew: Yeah, so let’s extend some grace to Petunia on this anniversary.
Laura: Our next piece of mail comes from Christian. It’s on the importance of emeralds. Okay. They say,
“Hello hello, MuggleCasters. I just had a revelation when looking at my new engagement ring.”
Laura: Congratulations, by the way. Had to pause to say that.
Andrew: Ooh!
Laura: Christian goes on to say,
“There is, along with a sapphire (yeah Ravenclaw), an emerald on it (not for Slytherin, ew, but it’s gonna be a gay ol’ wedding, so obvi it’s because of The Wizard of Oz). Anyway, I digress.”
Eric: Nice.
Laura: Your wedding already sounds like so much fun. [laughs] I love this. Anyway.
“I read up on the stones a bit about hardness and how they’re formed and gain their color, and HOLD ON!!! On the Wikipedia page under the alchemical section, it says about emeralds: ‘They say that if a venomous animal should look at it, it will become blinded.’ And I am blown away! It’s probably why Slytherin chose emeralds as the stone of his House, so his students would be even more protected from the Basilisk. I love finding stuff like this. Anyway, wish you a great day! Thank you for making my ride to and from work so much more fun while being stuck in traffic. Keep doing what you’re doing. Greetings from Germany from a listener since 2017.”
Eric: Wow!
Laura: Yeah, that is so cool!
Andrew: That is sick.
Laura: And the fact that the emeralds are used, what is it, because the stones of the House… do we get to see the emeralds used as snake eyes in any of the carvings anywhere?
Andrew: Ooh.
Laura: Because if we… I’m not saying that we do, but if we do, that’s really incredible, given what we know happens to the Basilisk in Chamber of Secrets with Harry stabbing its eyes out. So I just… ah, that would be cool. Thank you so much for this.
Andrew: Max that.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: Yeah, I love hearing connections like this, even 19 years into doing this podcast. So our next email is from Sarah on Nick’s Petrification, and she wants to know,
“Upon rewatching Chamber of Secrets, I was wondering how Nearly Headless Nick came to be rescued from being Petrified? They explain that the only cure for Petrification is a potion made from mandrakes. On the Wizarding World website, it’s confirmed that this is a tangible substance, a ‘restorative draught,’ as opposed to a spell. My question is, how did they feed this mandrake potion to Nearly Headless Nick, since it was mentioned in the Chamber of Secrets book at the deathday party that ghosts cannot consume food? Hope you guys can think about this question even though I know you already discussed Chamber of Secrets. I’m loving the Chapter by Chapters. Thanks for all you do.”
Andrew: So could there be a potion, a type of potion, that can be consumed by ghosts? But this also raises the question of can ghosts get sick? And how do they get better?
Eric: Aww.
Laura: Yeah, I’m thinking back to the deathday party. There is this moment where one of the ghosts floats through one of the platters of rotten food that they have there and says that he can almost taste it, but not really, and so I’m wondering if there’s some equivalent here to allow for the potion to work on a ghost. Do they just have him…? Do they push his Petrified ghost form through the potion?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Can the ghost soak in the potion, like in a tub, and then it absorbs that way, maybe?
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Oh, oh, God. I was thinking along similar lines and always have, because remember how they relocate Nick to the hospital wing, is they kind of waft him? They get fans or something and…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I assume you can aerosolize the potion and mist it and spray it and then it’s kind of more of a gas?
Andrew: Or could a ghost choose to eat something, choose to drink a potion, if they want? Like, sure, they can move through the food, but can they switch the path and then they can eat the food?
Micah: Like Casper?
Andrew: Is that how Casper…? Can Casper do that?
Micah: Well, Casper’s uncles, right, Eric?
[Eric laughs]
Micah: You know what I’m thinking of.
Eric: It’s true. Fatso, Stretch, and Stinky.
Micah: Yeah, they do quite a lot of eating, and they basically don’t fully process the food… but anyway.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I’m delighted by the reference.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I don’t really have a good answer. I almost wonder if Nearly Headless Nick, since he was the vehicle through which… was it Justin Finch-Fletchley saw the Basilisk?
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Micah: Should he have even been Petrified?
Eric: Yes. Well, he should have been killed, but he wasn’t.
Laura: He was already dead.
Andrew: Right, right.
Micah: Well, that’s my point. Then he should have been fine.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Well, but because…
Micah: Like, the water didn’t become Petrified. Hermione’s mirror didn’t become Petrified.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: But that’s a breathing… do ghosts breathe?
Laura: Yeah, but I mean, if we’re talking about inanimate objects versus animate objects, like Nearly Headless Nick is, he has free will, right? So I think that qualifies him to be Petrified. But what this email is really highlighting for me is that this is kind of a plot hole. I can’t think of a reasonable explanation. Him getting Petrified makes sense; him getting un-Petrified by the same potion they use on all the living victims does not make sense.
Eric: You don’t like my misting idea? My aerosol…?
Micah: I actually liked that a lot.
Laura: That is the closest thing that makes sense, and I cannot imagine that that was a solution that was thought of at the time of writing.
Eric: Yeah, you just put it in a Febreze can, and you spray it with the…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: And Nick smells great and he’s back to life.
Laura: I mean, I like your theory, Eric, for sure.
Eric: I just always assumed, from the moment they move him from that spot using wind, that they can also restore him using a spritzer, basically.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Okay, this email comes from TJ, who’s got a “What if?” for us.
“Hey MuggleCast! I have been listening to you all since 2006.”
Lot of longtime listeners – we’re very touched – writing in today.
Andrew: Thank you.
“And even followed you all on the Smart Mouths days!”
Eric: Shout-out to that old show.
Andrew: Woo!
Laura: Aww.
“I have a bit of a ‘What if’ scenario for you. What if Alfonso Cuarón directed the Goblet of Fire? How do you think the film might have changed to what we got with Mike Newell? Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!”
[“What if?” sound effect plays]
Andrew: First of all, this might be the first time we’re doing a “What if?” about the real world and not the fictional world of Harry Potter. But what TJ is saying is, would it be a little more artsy? Would it be a little less angry? I don’t… what do you think TJ is asking exactly when it comes to Alfonso? And Eric, isn’t this your favorite movie, Prison of Azkaban?
Eric: No.
Andrew: Oh, sorry.
[Micah laughs]
Laura: No, that’s Eric’s favorite book, right?
Andrew: Oh.
Eric: And probably least favorite movie.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: But I remember, as a sidebar, that I did want Alfonso back for Fantastic Beasts; I thought he would have done a great job with the Fantastic Beasts. With Goblet of Fire, it’s hard to tell whether it would be more or less faithful. Cuarón really narrowed the scope to capture the teenage sort of self-ness in Prisoner of Azkaban. Goblet of Fire would have presumably followed a more narrow path. Yeah, I think it’d be arty. We’d get a lot of good shots.
Andrew: Exactly, yeah. I don’t really like Goblet of Fire the movie. I bet Alfonso would have started by saying, “Hey, kids, cut your hair. Make it as short as the last movie.”
Eric: Yeah, or “Here’s an essay prompt. Write an essay. The longer your essay, the longer we’ll allow your hair to be.”
Andrew: [laughs] And none of them would have done it. Bald heads.
Micah: And Mike Newell wouldn’t have broken any ribs.
Eric: It’s the butterfly effect.
Micah: Do you remember what I’m referring to?
Eric: Yeah, he broke a rib rolling on the ground with Fred and George, I think it is?
Micah: Yeah, he was teaching them how to fight.
Andrew: Alfonso or Mike Newell?
Micah: Mike Newell.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Micah: Yeah, because the age line fight is in Goblet of Fire.
Laura: Honestly, where I think Alfonso Cuarón would have been incredible for Goblet of Fire would have been with the maze task. I think aesthetically, especially given how he showed that he’s very willing to lean into creepy aesthetics when need be, I think would have been incredible. I honestly think the maze task in the Goblet of Fire movie is boring, and I think he would have really… he would have amped it up quite a bit and actually made it feel as significant as it felt when reading the book. But Goblet is my favorite book, so I’m a little more critical of the movie, maybe, than most. But yeah, I would have loved to see Cuarón direct Goblet, because I liked the Prisoner of Azkaban adaptation. It wasn’t perfect; there were definitely some big misses in terms of stuff that got left out, but I feel like stylistically, that was the first movie that, to me, felt like it really captured the tone of the stories and of the characters, and that was the tone that ultimately stuck for the rest of the series, so I appreciate Cuarón for that.
Andrew: Laura, what you’re saying reminded me of the shrunken head on the Knight Bus. I mean, that was an Alfonso Cuarón touch, and now I’m mourning the fact that if he did do Goblet of Fire or later movies, he probably would have brought other unique flourishes to the film series in canon, and it’s a crying shame we didn’t get more of that across the series.
Laura: He didn’t want to, though, because they had asked him, I think, and he talked about how directing a Harry Potter movie was like being on a really long road trip where you really had to pee…
[Micah laughs]
Laura: … and he just didn’t have another one in him, so it was really clear that he only wanted to do this one.
Micah: Yeah. I mean, he’s got experiences with mazes; he was a producer on Pan’s Labyrinth. And I really agree with you, Laura, I would have loved to have seen the sphinx brought to life, some of the other creatures that we encounter in the maze. I would have loved to have seen his take on the merpeople and all the other creatures that live in the lake. The dragon actually wasn’t too bad…
Laura: No, that was fine.
Micah: … so I don’t think I really need a revision there. But even thinking to the end of the movie with Voldemort’s resurrection, somebody like Cuarón on that would have been really cool to see.
Laura: Yeah, I think he would have knocked it out of the park.
Micah: What’s his take on the Dark Mark? How does that appear in the sky? No knock on Mike Newell.
Laura: No.
Micah: He did a good job.
Andrew: Eh, I’ll knock on him. I didn’t think he was that great.
Micah: [laughs] He had a broken rib, Andrew.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I mean, I’ll be honest, when we did our Goblet of Fire commentary, I actually walked away from that surprised at how much I enjoyed seeing the movie again. I remember when I first saw it in theaters I was actually kind of disappointed, because I went in with such high expectations for it since it is my favorite book. I still don’t think it’s the best Harry Potter movie. It’s definitely not the worst; I’ll give it that.
Andrew: Well, moving along, this next one is quick and easy Q from Catherine. She asks about Harry’s Parseltongue abilities. “Is it ever confirmed whether Harry’s ability to speak Parseltongue ends after Voldemort is defeated?” And the answer, quite simply, is yes, and it was actually confirmed on Pottermore.com – excuse me, WizardingWorld.com – excuse me, HarryPotter.com.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Put it in the graveyard!
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, so according to some original writing on what used to be Pottermore.com, Harry could no longer speak Parseltongue after the events of Deathly Hallows. “Once the part of Voldemort’s soul that dwelled inside Harry was destroyed, Harry discovered he was no longer a Parselmouth, an added bonus of Voldemort’s demise,” HarryPotter.com editorializes. I don’t know; I think it’d be cool to speak Parseltongue.
Micah: Yeah, me too.
Eric: Also, does that mean, then, by extension, that every time Harry speaks Parseltongue, he’s actually using the Horcrux?
Andrew: Oh, that’s interesting.
Laura: Yeah, I think so.
Eric: If it goes away when the thing is no longer there, then it means it was the Horcrux that enabled him to do it.
Andrew: He’s kind of turning it on, or activating it.
Eric: Yeah, dipping into secret knowledge.
Andrew: That’s interesting.
Laura: Yeah, he was subconsciously activating the Horcrux.
Andrew: It’s kind of cool.
Laura: That’s interesting.
Eric: So we’ll keep an eye on that.
Laura: Well, our last email for today comes from Ben, and this is a Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast soul.
“Hi MuggleCasters, I’m from Ireland and I’ll be 13 in December. It’s my first time writing and I’ve just started listening to the new episodes yesterday because I had started with Episode 1 about a year ago and worked my way up to 400 and I’m still going. Through Harry Potter I started my reading when my uncle lent me his original four books, and thanks to you, I have continued my reading and fandom journey with books you’ve mentioned, and integrated in the Twilight and Hunger Games fandoms. Thanks for reading. From a proud Puff, Ben.”
And Ben adds as a P.S.,
“An alternate Deathly Hallows ending to end it with scar: ‘All was well. For the past 19 years, there had been no pain in his scar.'”
Andrew: That’s awesome, Ben. Thank you for sharing.
Laura: Yeah, I love that. And hey, happy early birthday.
Andrew: Yeah, and also, I think it’s pretty cool that we also helped you step into the Twilight and Hunger Games fandoms, it looks like. I, for one, am excited for the next Hunger Games book that comes out early next year, following Haymitch.
Eric: I’m really, genuinely excited for that.
Andrew: Sunrise on the Reaping, coming out in March of next year. Suzanne Collins has been doing this post-core series thing right. As has Stephenie Meyer, honestly. [laughs] They release some extra books; they stay off social media.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Take note.
Eric: No, the film version of Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes got me way the heck back into Hunger Games. I watched all the movies again.
Andrew: I loved that movie, yeah.
Lynx Line
Micah: So our newest benefit over on Patreon is our Lynx Line, so thanks to those who support us over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and we got some really good answers to this week’s question. We asked: We want to know what our patrons’ biggest takeaways are from the first five chapters of Order of the Phoenix. Was there maybe something we glossed over, something they’d like us to hear discuss in a little bit more detail?” And we got some good responses.
Andrew: This first response is from Rachel.
“I’m really liking the consideration of the Horcrux inside Harry and how that influences him. I’d never thought about that on any of the other times I’ve read the series. I’m also excited and hopeful for conversations surrounding Ministry interference at Hogwarts as the book progresses. Thanks for the great episodes.”
Laura: Oh, don’t worry, that’ll come with the territory.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: This next one’s from Julianne, who says,
“I actually had a lot more empathy for Harry on this reread. Not only is he a teenager (who developmentally is egocentric), but he’s just been through almost literal hell and then sent to live with people who abuse him regularly. He has no support and is alone. My mom/teacher heart breaks for him.”
Micah: Yeah, he’s been through it.
Laura: Yeah, and it’s only the beginning. Carly says,
“I wanted to put this on the Lynx Line about Order members but I chickened out, so I’m going to put this here.”
Andrew: Don’t chicken out!
Laura: Yeah, yeah, please leave your feedback whenever you feel compelled to do so for the Lynx line, Carly! Carly goes on to say,
“Professor Grubby-Plank would have made a perfect Order member, especially for guard duty. She obviously doesn’t have a day job if she’s so available to be an on-call substitute teacher for Care of Magical Creatures, so I imagine she’d have no problem just hanging out with Figg and her Kneazles all day.”
That’s a really great observation, Carly, and I can only think that perhaps Grubbly-Plank had not been fully conceived of yet as a character. Although we do see her in this book, right? So maybe someone who was writing didn’t connect the threads…
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: … to how this character could have been used.
Andrew: “Somebody who was writing.”
Micah: Cassandra says,
“I was struck by how conceited Harry is portrayed. From the first chapter, he recalls that HE is the capable one who confronted Voldemort, that he is the one who brought the news of Voldemort’s return. Is this the Horcrux or normal angry boy dealing with stress? Or both?”
So I know we’ve talked a little bit about this on some of the Chapter by Chapter episodes, but these specific examples that Cassandra is calling out here… do we think it’s Horcrux or Harry?
Eric: Yeah, it’s a lot like when Voldemort is like, “I went further than anyone else to avoid death. I did it; it was me.” Feels very Voldemort to me.
Andrew: It does, because they’re big statements. And he’s not wrong, but these are big things to say in front of your friends and family.
Laura: Yeah, and we never really see Harry talk like this before or after this book, right? I can’t think of any other examples where Harry is almost boastful. He’s normally pretty grounded and not terribly egocentric, so this was a little out of character.
Eric: Even later in this very book, he’s the one going, “I had loads of help every time I faced Voldemort.”
Laura: Right.
Eric: That’s something that Harry in the early part of the book would absolutely never be saying.
Andrew: At the risk of this sounding like a cop-out, it could be both things happening here, where it’s the Horcrux and his rage, which are a unique combination in this book.
Micah: I like that. I think it’s the Horcrux that’s feeding off the rage.
Andrew: Oh yeah, yeah. It’s a deadly combination.
Laura: Hormones and Horcrux. Horrible.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I had the same problem when I was in high school.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: This next message is from Lady Gryffindor.
“Why couldn’t Sirius do a charm or transfiguration spell to change his looks and allow him to venture out of his home? Hermione did it to Ron in Book 7. You’re telling me the Order couldn’t do that for Sirius as well? Love you all.”
Eric: Aww. That’s… yeah.
Andrew: Well, and I mean, he does turn into a dog, so there’s that. But I think maybe they just didn’t trust him. They didn’t want to put the idea in his head.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Laura: Yeah, fair enough. Because I mean, this is somebody who already has a target on his back, right? And he tends… he has a history of being reckless. I mean, even him…
Andrew: Yeah, he could be looking for a fight.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, even him going… we’re going to see him go to King’s Cross in his Animagus form here in the next couple of chapters, and even Harry is going to note how risky it is for him to be doing that.
Micah: Right.
Laura: And isn’t that kind of how he ends up giving himself away, too, at least early on?
Eric: Yeah, Lucius or somebody spots him.
Micah: Lucius. Because it’s assumed that Pettigrew would share with anybody that Sirius is an Animagus.
Eric: Well, that’s what Sirius tells Harry in the previous chapter, too, that his cover is blown, basically. But yeah, transfiguration, charms. I think for me, the thing that makes the most sense is it’s a mixture of wanting to leave the house, but also having nothing to do if you were to leave the house. Complaining that you have nothing to do, but then ultimately, where’s he going to go? Even if somebody offered to transfigure him, is he going to go for a walk? How fulfilling will that be? Is it an everyday thing?
Micah: Maybe a swim, a run. Why not?
Eric: And from Lloyd,
“How do you think Kingsley is providing the Ministry with false information on Sirius Black? Surely a reasonable Ministry official would doubt he was in Tibet. Do we think there’s any Confunding or memory-altering happening?”
I want a series of this. I want to absolutely see Kingsley doing the misinforming.
Andrew: That would be fun.
Eric: But yeah, I don’t know. I think that he would probably have to manufacture some kind of evidence.
Micah: Right, but he can also plant the evidence. He’s literally in conversation with Sirius on a regular basis, so I’m sure that Sirius could provide him with the necessary tools to be able to lie effectively. But in terms of Tibet, I don’t think that’s a stretch. We know wizards can Apparate, so is it really that far-fetched that Sirius could be in Tibet?
Eric: It’s really just about the motive. Yeah, even though you could say it doesn’t make sense, we don’t understand the motive; it’s not clear…
Micah: Well, it doesn’t make sense because it’s so far away? Or it’s just a random place?
Laura: But he’s on the run, so I actually think that makes perfect sense. I do like this idea, though, y’all talking about Kingsley needing to work closely with Sirius to really pull this off. I love the idea of Sirius writing some fake correspondence that Kingsley can then take into work and claim to have intercepted through his various connections that he has in the field, so I could see Sirius faking a letter that he wrote from Tibet…
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: … so that he could hold that up and be like, “See? This is where he is.”
Eric: “Dear Dark Lord, greetings from Tibet.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Do y’all think that Sirius would have walked to Tibet? Because I just Google Mapped it, and it’s possible. So you’ve got to take a ferry. 3,871 hours to walk from Scotland to Tibet. Just throwing it out there.
Micah: He was in dog form, so he ran.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: He did it in a week, yeah.
Andrew: Google says, “This route may cross country borders.” Uh, ya think?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: “How do I get from this country to that country?” “Well, it may cross some borders.”
[Micah laughs]
Laura: I mean, he could always just get on the Titanic and get over there. Wizards travel that way, right?
Andrew: Yeah, as was documented in Fantastic Beasts.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Not since it sank.
Micah: Yeah, I was going to say that this comment made me think about the movie Jumper. I don’t know if anybody’s seen it.
Laura: Oh, yeah!
Eric: Yeah, with Hayden Christensen.
Micah: That’s how I imagine Sirius Apparating from one location to the next as he’s being chased by Ministry officials.
Andrew: Well, this was a lot of fun. As always, listeners, thanks so much for your feedback. We really appreciate it. If you have any more feedback about today’s discussion, or Chapter by Chapter or anything else, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, we’ll be back to Chapter by Chapter with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 6.
Eric: I’ve missed it, going through the book, doing the Chapter by Chapter.
Andrew: Me too.
Micah: It’s been a couple weeks.
Laura: Looking forward to it.
Andrew: It has been.
Quizzitch
Andrew: All right, now it’s time for Quizzitch.
Eric: Our last Quizzitch question was: Name a nation within the United Kingdom where the legal voting age is 16 years. This is due to recent conversation in the book about Harry being of age, so that’s why we asked that question. And correct answers, it turns out, are Scotland, Wales, and the Isle of Man, so 16 years all in the UK nations there, so that’s pretty impressive. 50% of winners say they did not look up the answer, and last week’s winners include 9-year-old John the Gryffindor (I didn’t look it up, I asked my mum!); A permanent sticking charm portrait of Gollum has been added to cart four times (one for each host)…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Thanks for that. Ben; Bort McVoldemort; Buff Daddy; Can the Harry Potter TV show please cast me?; Daddymort; Did you know pants means underpants in the UK?
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: Yes, we did know that. Eleanor my 10-year-old will be able to vote in the election after the next, boo hoo; Elizabeth K.; Flip the Fawkes; Fluffy’s three heads; GraveyardCCTV.com; Gred & Feorge still too young to vote in England; Harry Potter and the election for parliament; Hermione when she gets 99% on her test; Huffly Puffly the 12-year-old; I never called the MuggleCast official number, but I was so sad when you said it was gone, and I would storm Google headquarters to get it back with an army of Kneazles…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: … Imholyfred; Lady G; Listening from the Dominican Republic; Patronus Seeker; People don’t tell me ANYTHING!; Robbie; Ruairi Hipkin; Show me a Scotsman who doesn’t love the thistle, show me an Englishman who doesn’t love the rose, show me a true-blooded Aggie from Utah who doesn’t love the spot (clap, clap) where the sage brush grows. I looked that up, and that’s a Scotchman song from Utah State, for anyone who’s wondering. Sirius and Molly need a spa day; The postal vote that was six days late thanks to Errol; The racist and most insulting house of Black; and Wibblewumper the third. Y’all did not disappoint with those answers. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: How many Halloween feasts do we see Harry attend during his time at Hogwarts?
Andrew: I like it.
Eric: Yeah, that’s a good one. Back in spirit of today being Halloween. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website using the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch in your URL, or if you’re on the website checking out transcripts or Wall of Fame, must listens, that kind of stuff, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.
Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We are an independent podcast just sharing our love of Harry Potter with fellow fans, so your financial support is critical. In fact, listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. There are three great ways to help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you access to ad-free and early releases of the show, plus two bonus installments every month. And for many more benefits, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MC Gold, plus our livestreams, Lynx Line participation, a yearly physical gift, access to the MuggleCast Collectors Club, the exclusive Facebook and Discord groups, a video message from one of the four of us, and more. We put a lot of effort into our Patreon, and that’s because we really appreciate your support there. And last but not least, grab some merch. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com for all of our brand new merchandise, or visit MuggleMillennial.etsy.com for our overstock store. It’s getting cold out, y’all; I think it’s a perfect time to go ahead and purchase the MuggleCast Comfy Cozy Combo Pack. And I speak from experience, because this morning, I was wearing the MuggleCast beanie, and it was so cozy and warm and soft.
Eric: Were you wearing the socks too?
Andrew: I was not, but tomorrow morning I’ll do the Cozy Comfy…
Micah: Were you just wearing the beanie?
Andrew: Yes. Yes, Micah.
Eric: Just out walking the dog.
Micah: But it’s also 80 degrees here today in New York.
Andrew: What the heck? What the heck, Micah.
Micah: October 31. November 1, almost.
Andrew: But get the beanie in preparation for the colder days ahead. [laughs]
Micah: Get it anyway.
Eric: Eventually.
Micah: Winter is coming.
Andrew: It will get cold. If you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and we would appreciate a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.
Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.