Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #465, How I Met Your Mother (OOTP 28, Snape’s Worst Memory)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: On today’s episode, we have some Muggle Mail, we have a great voicemail, and we’re going to dive into… ooh, dive in, see what I did there?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: … Chapter 28 of Order of the Phoenix, “Snape’s Worst Memory.” I’m really looking forward to discussing this chapter, mainly, what the heck was Harry thinking by diving into Snape’s memory?
Laura: So rude.
Eric and Micah: Rude.
Andrew: Exactly! We’ll discuss that a little later, including a revelation I had earlier this morning about that, which makes it even more ridiculous.
News
Andrew: But first, there’s some really exciting news this week. WizardingWorld.com is hosting a video reading of the first Harry Potter book, and the first chapter is read by none other than Dan Radcliffe! What a surprise!
Micah: Welcome back, Dan.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Truly. I was thinking about this; after Deathly Hallows – Part 2, he tried to keep his distance from Harry Potter. He just wanted to separate himself. He didn’t want to be known as “That Harry Potter kid,” and so he went off and he starred in Equus; he was naked on stage. He did this movie where farts kill people, or something like that.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: He was desperate to separate himself.
Eric: No, get it right, Andrew. Farts propel you across the water.
Andrew: Oh, excuse me.
Micah: Wait, what is this?
Eric: You travel… it’s Swiss Army Man, yeah, with Paul Dano, and it’s one of the best movies I’ve seen. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, apparently it is actually good.
Laura: And I mean, he’s literally just a corpse.
Eric: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Right, a corpse that farts or something like that.
Eric: He’s done amazing things since departing Harry.
Andrew: [laughs] For sure.
Micah: Also, The Woman in Black. That was scary as hell.
Andrew: Right. Oh, tons of projects. He’s had a great post-Potter career, but now he’s returned for a brief moment; WizardingWorld.com asked him to read a chapter, and I thought it was great that they asked him to read Chapter 1. Let’s listen to a little sample of Dan Radcliffe reading Sorcerer’s Stone.
[Audio clip plays]
Dan Radcliffe: “‘Good luck, Harry,’ he murmured. He turned on his heel and with a swish of his cloak, he was gone. A breeze ruffled the neat hedges of Privet Drive, which lay silent and tidy under the inky sky, the very last place you would expect astonishing things to happen. Harry Potter rolled over inside his blankets without waking up. One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours’ time by Mrs. Dursley’s scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, nor that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley… He couldn’t know that at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: ‘To Harry Potter — the boy who lived!'”
[Audio clip ends]
Eric: “To Harry Potter – the boy who lived!”
Andrew: Wow, little cameo from Eric there. I missed that the first time. [laughs]
Eric: Sorry, I had to… you can’t not do that; everybody’s doing that at home, guaranteed.
Andrew: True, true. So yeah, this was really nice to see. Everybody was really, really excited by this news. They’re going to have somebody different read each chapter. Other people who are in the pipeline include Stephen Fry, who narrated the UK audiobook; David Beckham, who isn’t involved in Harry Potter, really, but he’s well known, and I guess a big Harry Potter fan; and Noma Dumezweni, who was Hermione in the first US and UK productions of the Cursed Child. She actually read Chapter 2, which was released on Friday.
Micah: I was expecting a little bit of commentary from Dan as he was reading. Every once in a while I thought maybe he was going to throw something in there, but it was still really cool to see this, and you could tell he was into it.
Andrew: Something else that was cool was that WizardingWorld.com added fan art throughout the video, which was really cool as well. And this fan art was related to the scene that Harry… [laughs] that Dan was narrating at any given moment, so that was cool to see. I wonder who else is going to be reading a chapter. Will J.K. Rowling read a chapter?
Laura: I hope so.
Eric: They have 17 chapters in Book 1 or… yeah, I have no idea. I’m excited.
Micah: They should give a fan or two the opportunity to read a chapter. I think that would be cool.
Andrew: You want to read one, Micah?
Micah: I would read one. I’m just saying. I’m not saying for me; I’m saying it would be cool to see the average fan get the opportunity to read one of these chapters. It would be nice.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I guess.
Micah: Well, this follows in the footsteps of The Tales of Beedle the Bard being read by notable cast members from the Harry Potter series.
Andrew: True.
Eric: Yeah, I was just thinking that.
Micah: And J.K. Rowling does really the… was it the annotations of Dumbledore? Or was that Jude Law?
Andrew: But not in the audiobook. No, that was Jude Law.
Micah: Doesn’t she read something in there? Or am I completely misremembering this?
Eric: She doesn’t… Madame Pince actress reads the J.K. Rowling comments, and then Jude Law reads the Dumbledore comments. But yeah, this was the peak Harry Potter inception a little bit. “Here you go, Dan. Read the first chapter of this book that changed your life.”
Andrew: [laughs] Right. So here’s my prediction: J.K. Rowling will read the final chapter. I see she’s been promoting these readings on Twitter, so she’s excited and engaging with these as well. So I bet they asked her to do it. If she can tweet all day like she’s been doing again, she can read a chapter from her own book.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: She should read it from memory, though.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Oh my God.
Andrew: That’d be cool. “All right, all right, what happened at the end of Chapter 16? Oh, yeah. Okay, okay.” What if she completely botches it and basically rewrites the entire chapter on the fly? [laughs]
Eric: I’d love to see her ad-lib it with things that she thought she put in there but didn’t, like Dumbledore saying goodbye to Harry, lying to him… all that stuff.
Micah: Then it would be Cursed Child.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Oh my God. No, I would also really love to see that, because we’ve been fortunate enough to go to readings with J.K. Rowling in the past, and she really is such an engaging reader doing these. She just really, I think, embodies the tone of the books, obviously; she wrote them. But it really is a great thing to be able to witness, so I hope she does.
Andrew: Yeah. And of course, there’s something very special about seeing the author read their own work, so we’ll see if she does that. Stay tuned. It looks like they’re releasing about two chapters a week so far; maybe they’ll pick up that pace a little bit, but we’ll keep everybody posted on who is reading what. Maybe we’re in for a surprise or two. Also want to let everybody know that the next Quizzitch Live installment will be Sunday, May 17, at 11:00 a.m. Eastern. This one, as Micah teased I believe last week, is going to be called the Goblet of Popcorn.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: Yeah, we went from… right, Prisoner of Knowledge? We have to go to Goblet of something.
Eric: Well, and Chamber of Fandom before that.
Andrew: Right, so… no, no, the Fandom of Secrets.
Eric: Oh, Fandom of Secrets, sorry. [laughs] “Chamber of Fandom.” Fandom of Secrets, yeah.
Micah: That sounds like a fanfiction.
Andrew: [laughs] No, fandom is not a chamber.
Eric: It’s a cool naming scheme we’ve got going on. I hope we keep it up.
Micah: What was our first one? Just Quizzitch Live?
Andrew: Yes, yeah. We’ll have to retroactively name it like they did with Star Wars.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: There you go. But yeah, we’re really looking forward to this one. Eric and I are hard at work on the questions. They are movie-related, hence the name Goblet of Popcorn.
Andrew: Ooh.
Micah: And we’re really excited.
Andrew: Yeah, and I will just say, after this one we’re probably going to space them out further apart from each other, so please do attend this one because it may be a while before the next one. Also, now is the time to support the show and help it grow, because we’ve just announced the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt. It features a new crest to celebrate our birthday, and is available in two cuts and colors. Pledge by June 30 and remain a patron for at least three months to receive one for yourself. And of course, you will also receive instant access to loads of other benefits, including bonus MuggleCast, which are about 20 to 30 minutes in length, and we release two a month. You also get access to our recording studio, and you can also access our own chapter readings, which we did a couple years ago. We stopped after Prisoner of Azkaban, but Micah, Eric, and I were taking turns reading each chapter and posting it on our Patreon. It was a lot of fun, but also a lot of work, so that’s why we stopped, and we know how much effort that the stars are putting into their own reading of Book 1.
Eric: Indeed.
Micah: Absolutely. And speaking of one who may appear in the future, I think it’s worth mentioning Rupert Grint. I believe he had a baby girl either today or in the last couple of days – I know we mentioned this story earlier on in a prior episode – so congratulations to him and his… girlfriend?
Andrew: Long-time girlfriend. Maybe Rupert will go on camera and read a chapter to his newborn daughter.
Eric: Ohh.
Andrew: That would be super touching. Oh my God, everybody would die.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: That would just be the cutest thing. So pledge today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you, everybody, for your support so much; we really appreciate it, and we hope you enjoy all the benefits that are available to you on our Patreon. Also, we hosted a debate during last week’s Chapter by Chapter. We were…
Micah: Oh, it wasn’t really debate, was it, Andrew?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: No, it was a slaughter. It was a slaughter, you guys.
Andrew: We creamed ’em. The debate was over if it was okay for Kingsley to modify Marietta’s memory, and Micah and I won with 60% of the vote on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. So sorry, Laura and Eric. What happened?
Laura: Well, I think you had the easier argument.
Andrew: Wow. Okay, sure.
Laura: I mean, you know what? I respect the process.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: You don’t have to respect the outcome, but I respect the process.
Eric: Yeah, I think people think if Dumbledore does it, that means it’s okay.
Andrew: Yeah, okay.
Micah: Well, Andrew, we’ll have to go and delete all those bots we used to vote.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, we don’t want them to catch us.
Eric: Otherwise they’ll gain sentience and take over.
Micah: But it is interesting, though, that we have back to back chapters that deal with people’s memories.
Andrew: Yeah, for sure, and we’ll talk about that in a few minutes. But first, this week’s episode of MuggleCast is sponsored by a lifesaver during quarantine, BeachBody on Demand.
[Ad break]
Listener Feedback
Andrew: Now we’ll move over to voicemails, and we got this one that we just adored from Griffin.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hey, MuggleCast. This is Griffin, calling in for the first time, as one of your younger listeners at 11, and I just wanted to mention something that came to mind when I was listening to Episode 440 about the chapter ‘Ministry of Magic.’ When I was listening to your discussion on the Ministry, it reminded me of when I was recently watching Deathly Hallows – Part 1 and the trio flush themselves down the toilets to the Ministry. Now, I don’t know if J.K. Rowling answered this in an interview, because most of her interviews on this subject were probably made before I paid attention to the news, and also probably before I could read, but I just had a bit of a revelation. So picture this: The Ministry workers are doing their usual in the morning, flushing themselves down the toilet, and some random Muggle walks in. So say this Muggle sees the workers in line and doesn’t give it a second thought, and he just stands in line. When it’s his turn, he walks into the stall, but it was that one day when he decided to eat Taco Bell, right?”
[Everyone laughs]
“So the next thing you know, he completely blows up the bathroom, then flushes the toilet and walks out of the stall. Moments later, a huge crap appears in the Ministry fires. Now, like I said, I don’t know if this was answered in an interview, but what happens then? Does the Ministry have a special force team with antibiotics and wands at the ready for Evanesco-ing away all that toxic sludge? If so, what are they called? Special Ops Evanesco Force? I’m sure I would remember if I heard a cool, calm female voice say, ‘Level eight, Department of Sports and Games, Magical Creatures, and Evanesco Squad, Head Office of Incidents.’ Anyways, thanks for everything you do, and stay safe. Bye.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: Thanks, Griffin. You too. Wow.
Laura: Okay, first of all, Griffin, I think you have a career in standup comedy ahead of you.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: That was hilarious.
Andrew: Also, this week’s episode is sponsored by Taco Bell.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Taco Bell, for when you want to spook the Ministry.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Maybe the wizards have put a charm on the doors so Muggles can’t get through, so that the toilets are used exclusively for moving down into the Ministry of Magic?
Eric: Yeah, I think that makes sense. Or maybe it just wouldn’t work the same if you’re not standing in the toilet, as we see.
Micah: I’m just going to let Griffin’s voicemail just stand by itself; I’m not going to analyze anything…
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: … because I think in the however many hundreds of years the Ministry has existed, there’s a chance that a Muggle at some point got into those bathrooms and did a number two. So I feel like… Griffin, in such a large part, is a reason why I still do this show. 11 years old, calling in with that well-thought-out of a voicemail. He also… I know he touched on the fact that if J.K. Rowling responded to this, it was probably before he could read. It probably was also before he was born.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: And knowing the fact that this show has existed for longer than he has is also… I don’t know how to feel about that, personally.
Andrew: Cool and wild.
Micah: Yeah, exactly. So thank you, Griffin, for sending that in.
Andrew: Now I want Taco Bell.
Eric: [laughs] I had it yesterday on the… or I had it the other day, the day after Cinco de Mayo.
Andrew: I had it on Cinco de Mayo.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Only the best.
Laura: I had it yesterday, actually.
Andrew: [laughs] Taco Bell, do you want to sponsor MuggleCast? I think it’s a natural fit for the show.
Micah: Oh, please do.
Eric: Can I say, I love that the Ministry workers flush themselves down because as government workers, they are civil servants, and it’s like submitting to the public. I just love that whole dynamic of what they do. But great question.
Andrew: Yeah, as a germaphobe, I probably wouldn’t do that. I’m sure the toilets are perfectly clean, but… still.
Eric: You’d just learn to Apparate or Floo or…
Micah: The Floo Powder just burns it all up anyway.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: How’s that? That’s a clean answer.
Andrew: All right, who wants to read this next email?
Micah: I’ll do it.
Andrew: Okay.
Micah: The next email comes from SJ, who says,
“Dear MuggleCast, in the last two episodes’ Chapter by Chapter discussions, Hermione has been unfairly blamed for Harry’s disastrous date with Cho. I feel the need to defend her, as this is something I have been working on with my therapist in my own relationship. Hermione is NOT responsible for Harry’s choices, actions, or behaviors! You all kept saying that she should have either not asked Harry to meet with her on Valentine’s Day, or should have explained to him how to communicate their plans to Cho in a way that wouldn’t upset his date, but that is absolutely not her job. It’s very kind of her to have helped explain interpersonal relationship perspectives to him that he was not grasping in the past, or to have suggested ways he might have better handled telling Cho about their meeting after the fact, but she was never under an obligation to do so as HARRY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN EMOTIONAL MATURITY AND HIS OWN ACTIONS. I do think that this is also gendered and that girls and women are disproportionately ‘expected’ to do all this emotional translating or extra effort on behalf of men in their lives, but that is UNHEALTHY and INCORRECT, and Hermione is blameless in this whole situation. She’s trying to arrange a major PR campaign to combat the Ministry and the Daily Prophet’s monopoly of the Voldemort narrative, and you all think she should have considered Harry’s romantic life with more priority and planned around it, when in actuality, she did consider it exactly as much as was appropriate; she asked him to meet with her (and Rita) after his date, as opposed to monopolizing his entire day or asking him to ditch his prior plans. She was very thoughtful in giving him plenty of notice and plenty of options, and it’s not her fault that Harry didn’t handle his own life as well as he could have. If we’re criticizing her, it should be for the way she manipulated Harry into meeting with Rita by not telling him about her plan ahead of time, but not for anything to do with his date with Cho. Thanks for letting me rant, and please apologize to Hermione.”
Andrew: [laughs] Hermione, we’re sorry.
Micah: I need a glass of water after that.
Andrew: No, this was a great point. This was a great observation. Harry screws up again.
Eric: Yeah. [laughs]
Andrew: All right, who wants to read the next email?
Eric: I will. It says,
“Hi, MuggleCast friends! I was listening to the most recent episode (‘Seen and Unforeseen’), and had a thought that may align with the retrospective psychology take of Order of the Phoenix in this reread. I know that when memories are put into the Pensieve, people like Dumbledore can watch memories that include himself as a third-party observer, which helps him see what he wasn’t able to before. But in all of the Occlumency scenes with Snape and Harry, all of Harry’s memories are shown in first person. I don’t believe J.K. Rowling ever clarifies whether someone like Snape who is penetrating Harry’s mind sees in first or third person, but I think since you’re diving directly into someone’s mind, you’d probably see things from their perspective. So what does it say about Snape that Harry saw him in third person? I think it speaks to his feeling of ‘otherness’ and ‘separateness’ that drives his character forward. We know from Half-Blood Prince that apart from Lily, he never had a true friend, and that kind of isolation can impact a person deeply. I think he detaches from his memories in significant ways because he tries to dis-identify with the scared little boy he was when he was a child. Anyway, that’s just what I was thinking. Hope you all are well and staying safe. Love the pod; please do it forever!”
Eric: Kathleen, we’ll try.
Andrew: Could it be because this series is from Harry’s perspective that we are seeing Snape’s memories from a third person perspective? Whereas when we dive into Harry’s memories, we’re seeing them from first person.
Micah: I think so. It’s interesting, though, because we’ll talk a little bit about this when we jump into Snape’s worst memory, and the fact that Harry is able to experience things, see things, hear things that Snape doesn’t really seem to be engaged with; it’s just in kind of that general environment that’s around Snape. So it’s very interesting to me that Harry is able to notice things that his father does or Sirius does that Snape really isn’t paying any attention to, and yet it’s all within Snape’s memory.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: So somehow the memory is able to capture all these different environmental elements that are going on around Snape, even though Snape is not directly interacting with them.
Eric: Right, and I think that’s maybe the magic of the Pensieve. But when Harry gets into Snape’s memories before this chapter and there’s an adult male screaming at a woman, I’m not sure, but I think that is in first person.
Laura: I thought that memory showed a small, skinny boy with dark hair in a corner.
Micah: It did.
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Eric: There you go. That’s what this is talking about, then, because that was in third person, whereas it should have been in first because we weren’t in the Pensieve at that time.
Andrew and Micah: Right.
Micah: You should have just seen through Snape’s eyes in that moment when he was cowering in the corner, right? Is that what you’re saying?
Eric: So why were we in the third person? Yeah, I think that Kathleen is right, that there is some… in childhood trauma, the fight or flight response is very prevalent, and I think that a solution that children have, that the human mind really develops, is this feeling of being outside of your own body. And I think that what Harry witnessed is Snape being outside his own body sort of, so we’re able to see himself. Very depressing. Very, very, very sad.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Maybe… I don’t know, I still see it just from a narration perspective. It just depends on which memories we’re seeing. If we’re seeing Harry’s memories, it’s from first person. If we’re seeing somebody else’s memories, it’s third person. But I don’t know; we could talk about this more.
Eric: Yeah, that could be, too.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: All right, well, we are going to talk about this in Chapter 28 of Order of the Phoenix, “Snape’s Worst Memory,” and we will start with our Seven-Word Summary.
Eric: Discoveries…
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Laura: … are…
Micah: … difficult…
Andrew: … to…
Eric: … watch…
Laura: … in…
Micah: … Pensieve.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Okay, good work.
Micah: Sorry. I thought you were going to go with “for,” and then I was going to go with “Harry,” Laura.
Laura: Ohh.
Eric: I didn’t want to start with Harry, otherwise… I mean, this is maybe one of the chapters I should have, but…
Micah: That’s a rule. You can’t anymore.
Laura: Yeah, we can’t start with that anymore.
Eric: Okay, good. Just sticking to the rules, you guys. Go easy on us.
Andrew: This is a rare one where there’s no character name in it. I feel like normally we fit a character name in here.
Laura: I would give it… what’s the grade above, P? Poor?
Eric: Acceptable.
Laura: Acceptable. I’d give this an Acceptable.
Eric: Okay.
Micah: Well done. Good job.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: All right, so Chapter 28 starts off with Educational Decree 28.
Andrew: Oh! Dang.
Micah: What a shocker. I didn’t even realize that until I was just making that connection reading through the document here.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: But no surprise that Professor Umbridge is now Head of Hogwarts, and this is following what happened with Dumbledore at the end of the last chapter. But I had a question about McGonagall. She is Deputy Headmistress. Why did she not take over for Dumbledore?
Andrew: Because Umbridge wanted to.
Micah: But who cares what she wants? That’s not the pecking order.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Well, I mean, Dumbledore just left the school and he escaped, and Umbridge isn’t happy and the Ministry isn’t happy, so they have to take control of the school. And I think they would suspect that Minerva is working with Dumbledore still, so they can’t let her control the school.
Eric: Yeah, she’s on thin ice for having made that comment about the justice system and Willy Widdershins in the previous chapter.
Laura: I also think… I mean, comparing it to the American school system, you have a vice principal and a principal. If the principal is banished from the school, it doesn’t automatically mean the vice principal gets that job. Somebody else could fill that post.
Andrew: Maybe Minerva didn’t want it. Maybe she wasn’t ready.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Don’t say that. Well, I can tell you one thing that she definitely would have been able to do, and that is access Dumbledore’s office, because I think the gargoyle would have moved aside for her, probably, but it is choosing not to do that for Umbridge. And I just wanted to say, Andrew, finally something in Hogwarts that isn’t a security nightmare.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: The gargoyle. It does its job.
[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]
Andrew: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I missed that clip.
Andrew: I know; I had to play it anyway because it’s been a while. Yeah, but what is going on here with the gargoyle? Is it just loyal to Dumbledore? Does it think Umbridge being Headmistress is fake news?
Eric: Yeah, I think that’s it, because there’s probably some sort of formal process that is not being observed as far as making someone Head of Hogwarts.
Laura: Right. And I’m sure the portraits would take a similar stance if she were able to find her way into the office. We have to remember the portraits are supposed to assist whoever the current Headmaster of Hogwarts is, and I can’t see them helping Umbridge.
Andrew: Yeah. Or maybe Dumbledore said, “Don’t let that toad through if I’m not here.”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: I don’t think he would have had to say anything.
Micah: Do we think that it’s to protect something that’s in the office, or it’s just the matter of the gargoyle respects Dumbledore’s authority?
Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s loyalty more than anything.
Eric: Yeah, you’re protecting the sanctity of that position that Umbridge unceremoniously usurped.
Andrew: Anything Dumbledore doesn’t want touched in there is probably protected anyway through its own magic, I would think.
Eric: Oh, good point.
Andrew: There’s multiple layers of security at play, probably.
Micah: So his office is secure, but the rest of the school is not.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Eric: It’s a free-for-all.
Andrew: He doesn’t care about the rest of the school.
Micah: One other thing that Umbridge does in this chapter is she creates the Inquisitorial Squad, and there’s a bit of a back and forth between a few of the prefects, and Draco makes it clear that actually, now he has more authority than just being a prefect; he’s a member of the Inquisitorial Squad. And to me, this is just a way that Slytherin is enabled to take House points from the other Houses, because nobody else is on the Inquisitorial Squad besides Slytherin, it seems like.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: Yeah. Ugh, I hate this. Draco is very puffed up about it; he has a real ego. He’s talking about Umbridge hand-selecting people who she really trusts for this job, and it’s just like, “Man, you’re never going to tire of being a suck up, are you? You’re never going to tire of being on the wrong side of the argument here.”
Andrew: Well, and also just the way that Draco so flippantly takes points from Gryffindors is awful.
Eric: Yeah!
Andrew: He says, “So, Granger, I’ll have five from you for being rude about our new Headmistress… Macmillan, five for contradicting me… Five because I don’t like you, Potter…”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: “Weasley, your shirt’s untucked, so I’ll have another five for that… Oh yeah, I forgot, you’re a Mudblood, Granger, so ten for that…” I mean, this is awful.
Eric: Oh my God. Shirt untucked? Hogwarts has a dress code? That’s news to me.
Andrew: [laughs] No, no! Draco is just doing it because he can.
Eric: “I don’t like you”? These would not hold up under… where’s your Head of House? Come on, man.
Micah: Right.
Eric: But it’s weird because Draco has also learned from the worst; Snape, we see throughout the books, always docking points for less than ideal reasons.
Andrew: True, yeah. This just illustrates how control at the school has been surrendered to… well, has been given over to terrible people, and Hogwarts is out of control at this point.
Micah: Definitely.
Andrew: And the good guys are not winning.
Laura: Well, and I think that this is also sort of a micro example of why people who seek power shouldn’t be the ones to have it. It’s like, when you think about… I remember being in school and all the people who would run to do things like be hall monitor or class president, they were all words that I can’t say on this show.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And you were just kind of like, “Oh, wow. You are a bit power-hungry, aren’t you?”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: And so this just goes to show in a much smaller microcosm how this works and why the people who are currently in charge in the wizarding world have no business wielding any kind of power.
Eric: Well, ambition is one of the main traits of Slytherin, so could we also maybe look in a new light at the Inquisitorial Squad and say, “This will probably look good on their resume one day”?
Micah: No.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, it depends what job they’re applying for. Death Eater? Sure.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Ministry? Maybe. Hogwarts? No.
Micah: And it’s referenced, whatever the vials are that hold all of the House points. You’re just seeing all the other Houses – Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, Gryffindor – dwindle, and Slytherin just continue to rise. So it’s really just an unfair practice that Umbridge has put in place here.
Eric: Yeah, blatant favoritism. And the end result is that Gryffindors, by even midday, the whole hourglass that’s been accumulating gems all year is nearly empty. Gryffindor in particular. All Houses are getting it, but it’s mostly Gryffindor. The only Gryffindors not affected by this seem to be Fred and George, who, when they were about to get points taken from their House by Montague, ended up overcoming him and shoving him in a Vanishing Cabinet and literally sent him off to God knows where.
Micah: Yeah, I noted here that it’s a fireworks display that would humble any Republican on July 4, what the Weasley twins put together.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: Oh, and this is before the fireworks, too. They just… they’re not taking crap from Montague. They’re pretty much impervious in this whole chapter, like you said.
Micah: Well, unfortunately, their actions have consequences as it relates to Montague, and we’ll talk about that in a second, at least… well, directly in this chapter, but then also in future books as well.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. But it’s just so fun seeing these older – I mean, really, they’re like brothers to Harry – just not give a crap, just not be affected by this. They’ve really checked out, Fred and George. I guess they pre-warn Harry, Ron, and Hermione, “Stay in the Great Hall; you’re going to want to be seen when this happens, so nobody suspects you. But there’s going to be a diversion. We’re over school, but we’re sticking around. We’re going to do our bit for Dumbledore,” I think they say.
Micah: Right, it’s really to show support and loyalty. We talked earlier about the gargoyle and its loyalty – if it is sentient, and I don’t really know if it is – but Fred and George have loyalty here too, and it’s on full display.
Andrew: Yeah, they know they can get away with it under Umbridge, so they do.
Micah: Well, and because they’re going to literally get away later on in this book. They have no intention of staying at Hogwarts, and I think they’ve been subtly hinting at that throughout the course of Order of the Phoenix. But really in this chapter, they’re making it clear to Hermione, to others, that they have no intention of staying for their final year.
Andrew: Can we thank Harry for this? Because he really kickstarted their business. I don’t know if they would have been as interested in leaving this early if it weren’t for the fact that they were getting Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes off the ground.
Eric: That’s a good point, actually, yeah.
Andrew: Thanks, Harry.
Micah: I think so, yeah. It’s his financial backing that allows them to do this.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: And as Eric, you note here, it’s really impressive, though, the magic behind what they’ve created. It’s not just the fact that they’ve created it; just the intellect involved here, I think, is probably beyond what we would normally expect of Fred and George.
Eric: It’s very true to life, too, where you have some very, very smart people that don’t test well – we always hear about Fred and George’s grades not being at least as good as Molly would wish that they were – but this magic overcomes pretty much everybody. I mean, I say everybody; really it just only has to overcome Umbridge, which doesn’t seem to be that hard. But really, if you look at what the fireworks do – apart from getting Harry out of having to take Veritaserum, which is crazy, and I can’t wait to talk about that – if you try and vanish a firework, ten more grow in its place. It actually duplicates. And I’ve never seen anything like this, where you create something that is in and of itself magic, but how it reacts to specific other spells is unique to the spell that you would try and cast on it. It’s unbelievably complex. No idea how they did this. And these fireworks are just short of sentient; later in the chapter, Seamus wakes Harry up and is like, “Hey, that Catherine wheel mated with one of the other fireworks.” These fireworks are reproducing, you guys.
Micah: Yeah, it’s really fun to read, and it was great in the movies, too. I know it’s a slightly different scene, and it’s actually at the end of that scene that Fred and George depart the school. But it is noted, actually, in this chapter – and we’ll talk about in a little bit – how Harry sees those brooms locked up in the back of Umbridge’s office that Fred and George use to escape. But let’s quickly touch on Montague and the Vanishing Cabinet; Eric, you mentioned this before. There’s a lot of threads to connect here, the first being that Peeves breaks this cabinet back in Chamber of Secrets, and Montague does try to Apparate when he’s caught in the Vanishing Cabinet, and we learn later that he ends up Splinching himself. And Draco inquires later on about the cabinet and uses it to his full advantage in Half-Blood Prince, and of course, this whole scene is why Snape ends up leaving at the end of this chapter, and it allows Harry to enter his mind. So a lot of far-reaching consequences for what Fred and George do here to Montague.
Laura: Yep. Yeah, and I mean, this obviously sets up the whole thread between the Vanishing Cabinet at Hogwarts and the Vanishing Cabinet at Borgin and Burkes for Half-Blood Prince.
Eric: And isn’t this also…? Doesn’t Peeves drop the Vanishing Cabinet right over Filch’s office to get Harry out of a tight spot as a diversion? So in that chapter and in this chapter… because I think Nearly Headless Nick persuades Peeves to drop the Vanishing Cabinet to begin with over Filch’s office. So in both chapters, you have Harry in a tight spot, and then friends of his or associates are setting off diversions to be able to free him and get him out.
Micah: Yeah, that’s another great point. One… well, I think we have two other things here before we jump into Snape’s worst memory. The first is Harry’s time at Umbridge’s office and the fact that she is utilizing, and not really hiding it…
Andrew: [laughs] Not at all.
Micah: … some questionable techniques to elicit information from Harry.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yep.
Micah: And I don’t think right now we should really be surprised that she’s doing this, but the fact that she’s so blatant and so open… maybe it’s the power now of being Headmistress of Hogwarts, that she just doesn’t care that she’s using Veritaserum to try and extract the truth from Harry.
Andrew: Yeah, and I guess she thinks that Harry is really stupid to not realize what Umbridge is up to here.
Eric: Well, he almost falls for it, too. In fact, the only thing that stops him is that he sees a cat plate, and the cat has blue eyes like Mad-Eye Moody’s blue eye, and that makes Harry… lucky for that cat. Talk about a good circumstance.
Andrew: Right. Of course, the red flag here should have been – and I don’t think you even need to be as clever as Harry is sometimes to have realized what she was up to – if somebody’s encouraging you to drink something, that’s probably not a good sign ever.
Laura: No.
Eric: I mean, even just Umbridge being so civil with him, offering him something to drink. That should be a huge red flag.
Laura: Well, and it’s said that she made quite a show of adding milk to his tea, with her back turned towards him. But I think this all just goes to show that Umbridge thinks children are stupid.
Eric: Right.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: You can tell from the way that she talks to them; she’s baby-talking them in her sweetest voice. And I feel like we’ve all seen this at some point, somebody who thinks children are just dumb.
Andrew: Yeah. And I mean, they are.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: Yeah, but not that dumb.
Andrew: No, no.
Laura: This is probably the largest crack in Umbridge’s plan, is she really underestimates who she’s working against here.
Andrew: Yeah. But it is entertaining to see Umbridge believe Harry here…
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: … because she does believe that he’s actually drinking this tea, and she’s like, “Yeah, I’ll believe you this time. Okay, no problem.” [laughs]
Micah: Well, it’s also clear that her motives go beyond just Dumbledore at this time, because she asks about Sirius specifically. She lets Harry know that she knows that Sirius tried to visit him earlier in the school year, and she lets drop the important piece of information that every point of access to the Floo Network is being monitored except for hers, which comes into play later on in the book.
Eric: Yeah, it’s nice to have, two chapters in a row, her giving just the useful tidbit of info, not realizing that she’s doing it to the person who’s going to maximize and utilize that.
Micah: I did want to touch on her relationship with Filch, though, because Filch is responsible for taking Harry over to Umbridge’s office, and he’s really excited about the fact that this next Educational Decree is going to allow him to torture students, and he also talks about getting rid of Peeves at some point. But I find it interesting that Umbridge would put so much trust in a Squib, especially knowing her history, knowing that her brother was a Squib and that she really hated her family, and her mother and brother were banished and sent away.
Andrew: Well, two things: I don’t know if Umbridge knew that Filch was a Squib, and B, Filch is on Team Umbridge, and I think Umbridge loves that about him, so she doesn’t really care to learn much about him other than the fact that he hates the students as much as she does, and he’s going to help her take over the school.
Eric: Exactly.
Micah: So she’s just taking advantage of him.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: I mean, he’s in love, clearly.
Andrew: [laughs] He says some awful things in this chapter, I think towards the beginning, right? Or maybe in the scene that we’re talking about now, about he wants to hang the students, or something like that?
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Yeah, he wants to hang them by their ankles.
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, awful. And he says something else awful that’s escaping me at the moment, but yeah, you can see why Umbridge likes him so much.
Micah: Totally.
Eric: Well, I’d like to see him try and hang Fred and George or Harry and Ron from their ankles, because he can’t use magic. And with all that’s going on in the fireworks here, again, it just drives home for me how unsuited Filch is to really be caretaker of a magical school. I pity him every time he has to wipe or wash thousands of trophies or mop the floor without magic, because it’s just… at this school… look, children are smart, but they’re dirty. They’re careless sometimes. They don’t go clean up after themselves. And I would think that on a day when the students aren’t in complete rebellion, it would be very difficult to clean up after them. So if you factor in the fact that now Filch and Umbridge are spending their entire day – Umbridge’s first day as Headmaster – trying to clean up after these fireworks, Filch can’t help. He tries to swat it with the broom, I think, and the broom catches fire. It’s just so useless.
Micah: I think that the relationship goes both ways here between Filch and the students, right? If Filch was… the students clearly don’t like Filch, but would they respect him more if he could do magic, and he was a caretaker that had that ability? I feel like part of the whole reason why they don’t… that they break the rules – and look, kids are going to break the rules regardless – but to the extent that they do is because they know that Filch just can’t keep up with them in many respects.
Laura: Yeah, and this honestly makes me feel kind of sad for him, because obviously he’s not a great person at the point in the series that we come to meet him early on, but how long has he been caretaker at Hogwarts? When he started in that position, was he this way? Or did he become this way after years and years and years of abuse and prejudice at the hands of students who thought it was funny that he couldn’t do magic? And this got me thinking about what place do Squibs have in the wizarding world; what level of education are they entitled to? Are they always relegated to these janitorial type positions because they’re not able to do magic? It seems like a breeding ground to create a lot of disenfranchisement within a community of the wizarding world, and thus turn them to any group that would want to offer them any level of legitimacy. So I think it’s really easy that Filch would turn to Umbridge as somebody who’s willing to give him some kind of power, whereas if he had been given a level of respect in the wizarding world, like if he were entitled to a level of education, if Hogwarts had a Squib track…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: … where they could come and get some level of education, and there were things that they could do at the Ministry that were elevated positions where there was room for growth and it wasn’t just like, “Well, these are the three or four things that you can do in this wizarding world; otherwise, go live like a Muggle,” his story might have turned out differently.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: It is very sad. There’s an article on WizardingWorld.com specifically about Squibs, saying that they face the same prejudice as Muggle-borns. They can’t be Sorted. There’s all sorts of things…
Eric: Can’t be Sorted? Ahh!
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, do they even go to Hogwarts? Probably not. I mean, the only reason that Filch is there is quite honestly… we’ve talked about this a lot on other episodes; Dumbledore is an equal opportunity employer, right? He hires across the board. He doesn’t care about those things. So I think it just comes down to whether or not Filch is actually able to do his job. I think you’re putting him in a very challenging position. I almost wonder – and if this story was never explored by J.K. Rowling – is he the equivalent of somebody like a Trelawney, where Dumbledore felt the need to keep him at Hogwarts? Because it is a difficult job for somebody who doesn’t have magical abilities.
Eric: Yeah, I really wonder what Filch owes Dumbledore, or what Dumbledore owes Filch. If there is some strategic importance, the way that Trelawney is there for that reason.
Micah: Yeah. And he also mentions finally being able to get rid of Peeves, and again, a topic of discussion we’ve had before, but Peeves is kind of part of the fabric of Hogwarts. I don’t think you could ever get rid of him. He kind of comes with the castle.
Andrew: Right.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: He’s part of the charm.
Laura: I mean, Filch and Peeves are like the Tom and Jerry of Hogwarts.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Laura: You can’t have one without the other.
Andrew: Right. It’s just one of many reasons why we love Hogwarts, and Filch gives the school some color as well. Now, it’s hard to feel bad for him, given his comments in this chapter, but I still agree, he’s something we… one element of the school that we enjoy.
Micah: Yeah, he’s that guy that you know he always has these… I almost think him as like the Wile E. Coyote, where he’s always trying to set these traps but they never end up working, or he’s never going to get the chance to use those ropes to string the kids up by their feet.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Filch gets all of his supplies from Acme.
Micah: Yeah, exactly.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: We need to have a discussion one episode devoted to the characters at Hogwarts who are a pain in the butt but we still love anyway, like Peeves or Filch, or the Fat Lady. She kind of sucks sometimes, but we still love her.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: One other thing, just to touch on here, is there wouldn’t be a chapter in Order of the Phoenix without a dream. And Harry has one, and he’s finally able to access what we come to learn is the Hall of Prophecy, and right when he’s about to extract that prophecy from its shelf, he gets woken up and he’s pissed off, and this sets off the whole chain of events that happen prior to Snape’s worst memory, where he’s just in a really bad mood. And if this wasn’t enough, to be woken up when he was about to finally realize what this has been about for the last couple of months, he runs into Cho on the way to his lesson with Snape, and things don’t go really well.
Andrew: No.
Micah: It’s probably an understatement.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Cho tries to apologize for what Marietta did, but it just completely goes off the rails.
Andrew: What really annoyed me is Cho says, “What are you so mad about? We got away, didn’t we?” I mean, yes, literally, physically, you got away, but you didn’t get away with anything. Dumbledore’s Army was exposed. Dumbledore had to flee the school over this. You guys didn’t get away.
Eric: Right.
Laura: Yeah, it was a bit of a “Sorry not sorry” moment.
Eric: I mean, what really rubs Harry the wrong way is Cho characterizes Marietta, after the fact, as “a lovely person, really. She just made a mistake.” Harry doesn’t have the emotional complexity to handle this nuance of sometimes lovely people can make mistakes, or that… he’s all very “Team Me. Team Dumbledore. No mistakes. 100% loyalty.” And Cho knows Marietta, and she’s still going to be her friend after this, and that’s something that Harry just has zero tolerance for.
Laura: Yeah, and I think that’s probably because the stakes were really high here. If Marietta had made a much lesser mistake, Harry would probably be annoyed but willing to forgive, but I mean, Dumbledore’s Army at this point has effectively been disbanded. They’re not going to be able to meet anymore. Dumbledore’s been forced out of the school.
Eric: Right.
Laura: They have this new horrible Headmistress, and it all gets linked back to Marietta exposing the group. So I have to be with Harry in this case, honestly. I would be pretty ticked off too.
Eric: I mean, he has a good point. He says, “Ron’s dad works for the Ministry too!” Cho is trying to say that Marietta was in an uncomfortable position, but again, Harry is just like, “Well, Ron doesn’t do that. Hermione doesn’t do that. Hermione is really smart, actually.” And it’s just… you see Harry just really sticking with his trio, and I think that this is definitely the end of his and Cho’s would-have-been relationship.
Andrew: Good! She doesn’t deserve him.
Micah: No makeup…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: I wasn’t going to say the next word. But I also think it’s the fact that Cho doesn’t understand the entirety of the situation, too, and I think Harry kind of says that to her as he walks away. But I did think he was a little rough when he said, “Don’t cry now,” or something to that effect.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: “What are you going to do, cry again?” Something to that effect, yeah.
Micah: So that was a little rough, but I just think that Cho doesn’t do a good job here of apologizing. And you know what? It’s not really her place. She shouldn’t have to apologize on behalf of Marietta to begin with, but she chooses to do so, and she just doesn’t deliver it in the right way. And Eric, to your point, I think there’s probably other examples, not just Ron, of members of Dumbledore’s Army whose parents work for the Ministry. I think… isn’t Susan Bones part of Dumbledore’s Army?
Laura: Yep.
Micah: There are others that could easily make that claim. I think Cho is just trying to defend her friend to the best of her ability.
Eric: Cho has to apologize for Marietta because Marietta can’t apologize for herself because Dumbledore and Kingsley took her agency away.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: She probably doesn’t even remember coming forward.
Micah: Well, she remembers the marks on her face, for sure.
Laura: Also, I think we can attribute some level of this to Cho having a more emotional reason for joining up with Dumbledore’s Army, and it was that she was trying to make sense of Cedric’s death. Not to say that she doesn’t understand the larger context behind why it’s important to learn defensive magic, but so much of this for her has been tied up in the emotional turmoil of grappling with what happened to her boyfriend, and then also developing feelings for the person who was with her boyfriend when he died. So she’s had more to contend with in the last few months than anybody else in Dumbledore’s Army – maybe with the exception of Harry – has had to deal with. You know what I mean?
Eric: Yeah. And maybe she’s just not there yet, learning that supporting the Ministry at this point is supporting the murder of your boyfriend. It is supporting Voldemort.
Micah: Well, it only raises the anger inside of Harry as he heads down to have this lesson with Snape, and it just seems like for Harry, there’s no good time to have an Occlumency lesson with Snape.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Because he’s woefully unprepared.
Eric: He’s like, “I should have been practicing… eh, I’m not practicing.” Or “I’m going to try during lunch or try during class today… eh, it’s no use. I’m just going to show up angry. I know I shouldn’t, but I’m going to.”
Micah: Yeah. And their lesson is interrupted by Draco, who is all but too happy to learn the fact that Harry is taking Remedial Potions. Also, shouldn’t Snape have locked the door? I mean, this is a pretty important lesson.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true.
Micah: That the two of them are meeting in secret. What if Umbridge came by?
Andrew: Yeah, imagine walking in on that. He needs a gargoyle of his own.
Eric: That’s a good point, actually.
Micah: So Snape takes off to go deal with Montague in the Vanishing Cabinet, and Harry sees that little glimmer show up as he’s walking out of the room. That little… I don’t know what to call it, but he’s intrigued, right? There’s something in the back of his mind. Maybe it’s Voldemort; maybe it’s not.
Andrew: And it reminds him of the dream he was having, I think, right?
Micah: Yeah, like, “Let’s go see what Snape doesn’t want us to see.”
Andrew: Yeah, this is… reading this again, it just reminded me how big of an invasion of privacy that this was. I really can’t believe that Harry did this. Now, J.K. Rowling tries to justify his decision; Harry is frustrated by his encounters with Draco and Cho and he’s in a reckless mood. But I was doing some reading on Pensieves in Goblet of Fire and I was reminded that Harry entered Dumbledore’s memory without his permission in the last book, and he got caught, so how could he possibly think that he wasn’t going to get caught this time? I know he’s in a reckless mood, but still, this is incredibly risky given your relationship with Snape. This is like going into, as Laura has written here – sorry for stealing it – somebody’s diary, or going onto somebody’s computer who you shouldn’t be, and there’s a lot of personal stuff on there, and if they catch you, they might be really mad. And of course, Snape would have the worst reaction to this if he were to be caught. So if I were Harry, I would not have dared to go into Snape’s memories.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, you’re right to point out he has a history of this. [laughs]
Micah: Well, I’m trying to remember… is it just in the movie, or is it also in the book? I feel like Dumbledore sets him up to go into that memory.
Andrew: I can’t remember, but when Harry…
Micah: Because he goes for one of those candies, and remember, the candy jumps on the floor, and then he hits a tile or something and the Pensieve comes out. I mean, that may just be a movie-ism.
Andrew: When Dumbledore returns, Dumbledore is not mad.
Micah: Correct.
Andrew: But he would know that Snape would be mad, and he should have learned his lesson the first time that if he dives into somebody’s memories, he might get caught. Because also, how does time move when you’re in somebody’s memory? Does time slow down? Does it speed up? Does it stay the same? I don’t know. I feel like going into somebody’s memories could take a lot of time, and Snape isn’t going to be away for long.
Micah: No, he’s fully equipped, probably, to handle that situation with Montague very quickly, knowing how good he is.
Andrew: Exactly.
Micah: And to your point, we don’t know how time moves when you’re in a Pensieve, so Harry could have been there for hours. Who knows, right? We don’t know. But I agree. I think it’s sloppy, though, on the part of Snape just to leave it there without thinking much of it.
Eric: I mean, Snape is actually doing his job. He’s doing his duty as Head of Slytherin House to go and rescue his student, and Harry banks on that, actually. It’s a very odd moment, because he says that Snape more than likely would also be accompanying Montague to the hospital wing, and that piece alone kind of convinces Harry falsely, but still that he has the time to do what he wants to do.
Micah: True.
Eric: I mean, I think of all the things he thinks he’s going to see, he does not expect to see his father. And this earnestness which he has to go into the memory, I think, is also misplaced, because if we look at what the last thing Harry saw in Snape’s mind, it was not a happy place. It was not a happy childhood. There was a very almost humanizing moment for Snape the first time we saw a look into his headspace, and I don’t think there’s a reason for Harry to suspect that this memory is going to be somehow any better.
Micah: It’s certainly an invasion of privacy, and the problem here is that it shuts down the Occlumency lessons moving forward. Regardless of what you think of Snape, it deprives Harry of one of his most important allies at Hogwarts now with Umbridge in control, because Snape has a direct connection to the Order and is fully aware of what’s happening. I mean, I don’t even think McGonagall knows the extent of what’s happening with Harry and Voldemort here.
Andrew: No.
Micah: Snape does. And so this just completely shuts down their connection to each other, and now this leads to what happens at the end of the book with Sirius, because the two of them just can’t… Harry and Snape, they’re not on speaking terms.
Laura: Yeah, I would say as of this point, Sirius is a dead man walking. His fate is sealed.
Micah: So let’s jump inside Snape’s worst memory here.
Andrew: No! That’s rude.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: No? It is rude.
Andrew: No, no. This is the end of the discussion. We can’t… [laughs]
Eric: It’s okay; I got written permission.
Micah: MVP of the Week.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Micah: I thought one of the cool things, though, about his memory – if we can have any part of it be cool – is that we do get to see OWLs being taken, right? Before we see Harry do it at the end of this book. And James and Sirius and Remus and Peter are all there, and James is drawing initials on one of his papers, and I found it a little bit weird – and also, one of our listeners, Darin, emailed us to say that it was weird – that Harry doesn’t recognize his mother’s initials.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. I think he’s just so overwhelmed by what he’s seeing he can’t really process everything, and maybe he forgets his mother’s maiden name as well.
Eric: Yeah, who would have told him that? Who would have told him that Petunia and Lily were Evans before they were married?
Laura: I was going to say, is there any point where Harry is given this information prior to this scene?
Andrew: Yeah, I guess when would…? I mean, he could maybe see something in the Dursleys’ home that would tell him this, but otherwise, yeah, maybe he just never knew.
Micah: It’s possible.
Andrew: It’s an important thing to learn, because you’re often asked to make this one of your security questions online.
Eric: Right.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: “What’s your mother’s maiden name?” And so you think Harry would have known by now.
Eric: But if he did know, then he would have had second thoughts about there being a Mark Evans living so close by to them at Privet Drive.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: There you go. But he does learn, or at least he should have that takeaway at the end of the memory, because I think James calls her “Evans,” doesn’t he?
Andrew and Eric: Yep.
Micah: Well, one other observation Harry makes during these exams is Snape’s handwriting, and I found this interesting. It’s noted what Snape’s handwriting looks like by J.K. Rowling in this chapter, and so I found it a little bit odd that Harry couldn’t remember Snape’s handwriting in Half-Blood Prince. Now, I know this is a fleeting moment, but again, J.K. Rowling specifically calls out how Snape writes, and we know what’s coming in the next book.
Eric: Yeah, pretty cool moment. She keeps consistency. She calls it “cramped,” I believe.
Micah: We talked about this a little bit before, but we’re seeing Snape’s worst memory, really, here from the third person, right? It’s not through Snape’s eyes. And I guess it is just the magic of being in the Pensieve that you can expand it beyond what that person is actually experiencing, but then I wonder how it’s recorded.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: Is it just from that person’s mind? Or how does that work?
Andrew: Well, so on Potter-No-More.com, there is some writing from J.K. Rowling about the Pensieve, and she says that it draws from your subconscious as well. But it’s noted in this scene that Snape’s head is buried in his OWL paper, so he’s clearly not focused on what’s going on around him, and yet Harry has a very clear picture of what his father and his friends are doing. I found that very interesting. Of course, we just have to set aside the fact that this is all not real, and the Pensieve can capture… or your memory can somehow capture everything that’s happening around you, whether or not you’re paying attention to it. But I would have thought this could check out better if maybe there’s some holes around Snape, like maybe in Snape’s memory Harry can’t see a particular corner of the Hogwarts grounds, or… I don’t know, the sky is missing or something like that. It’s just very patchy.
Laura: Well, I also thought that Harry mentioned he really wanted to keep up with the Marauders, but he was like, “Oh, if Snape goes off in a different direction, I’m not going to be able to.”
Andrew: There are, for sure, limits.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: He can’t get too far away from Snape. But you are hearing things that Snape himself wouldn’t even be consciously aware of, that he was picking up because… this is why Dumbledore uses the Pensieve; when you’re living those moments, you’re in your own head, especially if you have internal monologue, as about half people do. You’re always thinking about whatever your current stream of consciousness is. Going back into a memory by use of the Pensieve allows you to be outside yourself. You can study other people’s reactions; you can replay the scenario and really gain additional insight. And that’s the whole point of the Pensieve, is that it does this for you. So I just think it’s crazy, because we really test the limits of it here. I mean, we’re talking about at one point, they’re across the Hogwarts grounds from each other. They’re down by the lake and on a hill. It goes pretty far.
Andrew: Yeah, I guess how these memories work is they capture a bubble around the person, and you just need to stay within that bubble, and if you do, you get everything.
Micah: But what’s so odd about… and we don’t have to spend a lot of time on it. What I find so odd is he can actually hear the conversations, though, between James and Sirius and other members of the Marauders…
Andrew: Right.
Micah: … but there’s no way that Snape is close enough to hear those conversations, so how does that work?
Andrew: I would like to hear J.K. Rowling share more information. We can just chalk it up to magic, I think.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: But setting magic aside, it does seem like a plot hole. It just really does not check out. Unless J.K. Rowling is saying that even your subconscious can capture everything happening around you from a distance?
Eric: I will say that this is the only time that Harry properly sees what his dad was like at school and the Marauders. After Book 3, I’ve wanted so desperately to see the Marauders in action. I still want a Marauders book series. [laughs] But this chapter, this tiny little bit that we get here is all the interaction we’re ever really going to get, so I take it at face value, and I’m like, “Yep, the Pensieve can do this. Totally cool.”
[Laura laughs]
Micah: Right.
Andrew: “If it means I get more Marauders, it’s worth it. I don’t care if it’s a plot hole.”
Laura: Also, I mean, none of us are neurologists here, but my understanding – and this is super rudimentary – is that your subconscious actually picks up a ton of stuff that you’re just not aware of, so I think that this might be the explanation. I would love to hear from somebody who’s actually studied in this field to explain how science could jive with the Pensieve.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: Because it’s not even from, really, Snape’s perspective, because if it were, I think maybe even the take on it would be that much worse. And what leads me to believe that is, for example, when you get to a character like Remus, you can see the disappointment in his face, and I just don’t think that that’s something that Snape necessarily would record.
Andrew: Right. Well, J.K. Rowling can’t help herself; she has to be detailed, so even if it doesn’t check out, she’s like, “I’ve got to write the details anyway!”
Micah: There you go.
Andrew: “I love detail.”
Micah: So let’s talk a little bit about the younger versions of James, Sirius, Remus, Peter, Lily, Snape. It is very cool to get this scene, even though a lot of bad stuff does happen in it, but just the descriptors of these characters, Eric, I don’t know if you want to touch on them a little bit.
Eric: Yeah, just James in particular. I mean, J.K. Rowling writes that Harry feels like he’s “looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes.” [laughs] What an amazing way of saying that. Basically, their hair is exactly the same; even though James is sitting at the desk taking the test, Harry knows that if he stood up, they’d be within an inch of each other height-wise. I mean, I just get a shock down my spine every time I look at Harry looking at James in my head. It’s crazy.
Andrew: Yeah, I like the descriptions about the hair because that’s totally something the typical cool kid at school will do, toss his hair, keep it messy, get all the girls.
Eric: Yeah, and Harry’s hair has been the through line of all of these books. I was actually listening to Noma Dumezweni reading Chapter 2 of Book 1, and it’s all about how Petunia keeps… well, it’s not all about. Petunia keeps cutting Harry’s hair and it keeps growing back, and it’s all untidy. So untidy hair is the equivalent of Lily’s eyes for Harry and James, and so it’s nice to see it get this payoff with James paying so much attention to it.
Andrew: Interesting.
Laura: Yeah, what’s so interesting here, though, is… I mean, we see physically that Harry very much looks like his father, but in terms of temperament, they couldn’t be more different.
Eric: Yeah, Harry can read James. He understands what is going on inside, but it’s way different. He knows that his father is enjoying the attention that he’s getting, and it doesn’t… Harry is kind of slow on the uptake there, in terms of, “Oh, this is why he’s been spending so much time catching this Snitch and not telling Peter off, because, oh, he’s actually enjoying it right now,” and that just doesn’t… Harry is just shocked by it.
Micah: He certainly enjoys the attention; he enjoys the audience, but he’s really ultimately trying to impress Lily, and that’s why he does what he does a little bit later on. For Sirius, we get a lot of hints that he’s this very good-looking young man, and the ladies all swoon over him…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: … and he doesn’t necessarily seem too taken by that right now. He’s more kind of just loving the camaraderie with James.
Eric: Yeah, he’s in it for James; he doesn’t care that there’s these girls looking, I think, wistfully towards him, hoping he’ll ask them out. [laughs] It’s pretty cool to see just the original bromance in Harry Potter to be between these two. But as far as Sirius’s characterization, what I love the very most about this chapter, for Sirius, is that he has doglike qualities that are bleeding through into the descriptors. He barks laughter; he has a bark of laughter, so Sirius’s laugh sounds like a dog’s laughter, or is just the way that it’s described as coming out. And I actually found another one: When James points out Snape, it says, “Sirius’s head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.” There’s all these dog qualities ascribed to the human Sirius, and it’s either because he becomes a dog Animagus, or maybe the fact that his Animagus form is a dog is because he already had these innate doglike qualities as a human. Very interesting stuff.
Laura: I think it’s the latter, probably, because you don’t get to choose what your Animagus form is, right?
Eric: Right, but I wonder if a year or two of transforming into a dog and you start taking those behaviors back with you. I think it could go either way.
Micah: He also has a bit of control over James as well, which is… at least in this scene, he’s the only one that seems to be able to control him, so there’s definitely that dynamic in their friendship.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Micah: With Remus, we talked a little bit about this, but he very much does not approve of what’s going on. There’s a lot of frown lines appearing on his face throughout the course of the memory.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: That being said, though, he is a bystander to what’s happening here to Snape, and I still don’t… I know he’s young, but he could step in and make a difference; I just think that he’s afraid of what the others might say if he does.
Eric: Yeah, it’s a shame that he doesn’t stand up.
Andrew: Yeah, and maybe he also knows that he needs to let this play out. This is just what happens; James needs to let it out of his system. I don’t know. It’s not right, but…
Eric: This is for the story. We need this to happen for story moments.
Andrew: Oh, yeah. That too.
Eric: It’s a shame that Remus doesn’t stand up. I kind of want more from him, actually.
Andrew: Yeah, I was about to say he’s the dad of this friend group, but maybe not if he’s letting this happen.
Eric: Yeah, the only explanation we ever get for this is back in Prisoner of Azkaban. He says – very clearly what Micah has said – that he’s afraid that if he stood up to his friends, they wouldn’t hang out with him anymore, which I don’t think that could be further from the truth. If they’re still hanging out with Peter after we see what Peter is like, then I don’t think there’s any real chance that they ever would have left Remus.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Peter is just kind of a loser, isn’t he? He’s just very…
Eric: He really just doesn’t have an obvious redeeming quality.
Andrew: Yeah, and he’s just infatuated with James catching the Snitch, and he’s a fanboy. He’s the odd one out.
Micah: He definitely doesn’t fit with the other three, so I wonder why he’s a part of this group. Just because he just seems like he’s a tagalong, and he’s just clapping and doing cartwheels for anything that James does.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: He just basically is there to keep James happy, it seems like.
Andrew: And that’s probably why he’s there, yeah.
Laura: For some reason when I read him clapping, I imagine the clap reaction from Animal Crossing.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “So impressive! Yes, yes!”
[Laura laughs]
Micah: Now, I’m going to make a comparison here, at least for a few of them, and I know some people may not like this, but I don’t see that much dissimilar between them and Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in terms of how they treat particularly Snape in this chapter. As soon as they see Snape, it’s like, “Oh, Snivellus is here. Let’s go beat him up. It’s bully time.”
Laura: Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, James and Sirius are bullies, Peter is a bully by proxy, and Remus, I agree; it’s disappointing that he doesn’t do more to rein his friends in here.
Andrew: But they do turn good eventually.
Laura: Yeah, they redeem themselves.
Andrew: Exactly, which is more than what can be said for Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. Well, actually, that’s not true, but I mean, as we head towards Book 7, they turn bad, and then at least Malfoy turns good.
Eric: Right. Yeah, I just… for all the insight we do get into the Marauders, I still, coming out of this chapter, don’t really know why Peter is a Gryffindor. I want to know. I want to feel as though he is justified in being in Gryffindor House, in being part of this friend group, but he just doesn’t seem to represent any of the qualities that you would immediately peg as being Gryffindor-ish. And although he technically accomplished the same level of magic that they did – becoming an Animagus as a teenager is incredibly difficult – but it just doesn’t seem like he’s there for anything other than James or Sirius’s emotional support and being basically a sycophant to them.
Micah: I think there is, though, a level of bravery in what Pettigrew does, even though it’s not your traditional form of bravery, right? The betrayal and siding with Voldemort. For him, there’s a level of bravery in that, a level of courage in that, so maybe that’s one characteristic that you can apply that’s Gryffindor-like to him.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: The instinct for self-preservation, I guess.
Andrew: It looks like Lupin had befriended Pettigrew before they had met James and Sirius, so Peter got into the group that way.
Eric: Interesting. Before we get into the taunting of Snape, here’s another point I wanted to make, is they’re calling each other the nicknames out loud. They call each other Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs. I don’t think that this is necessarily the greatest idea? We know they’re having fun and don’t care about it, but somebody listening, such as Snape, it just… it’s something very easy to hate, is them calling each other these uncomprehensible nicknames that kind of also give away the fact that they’re illegally Animagus forms. It’s a problem for me. I’m just like, “You guys should be a little bit more careful.”
Micah: Eh, I chalked it up to just you have nicknames for your friends, and you call them by that nickname when you’re in school. And they’re young kids. I think it’s far worse when they’re talking out loud about the werewolf question on the test.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: That could give away a lot more than just the nickname. So as per your Quizzitch question, Eric, from last week, James casts several spells on Snape without Snape having done anything wrong; he’s just physically present. And this is a terrible bullying moment, right? We hear about this a lot in our society, where people are just there, and that’s enough for somebody else to attack them verbally or physically.
Eric: I mean, this level of bullying, the public display of it all, the spells… in particular, Impedimenta, which sounds really painful; it takes a long time for Snape to recover. And then Scourgify, which has soap bubbles coming out of your… what an unpleasant experience. I don’t know about you guys, but my parents… I’ve had my mouth washed out from soap once, and I hated it so much that my mom never did it again.
Andrew: Oh, well, that’s good, at least. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, it was so painful for her to watch me having to experience that, that it never happened again. So it’s awful, you guys. And this bullying… I’ve got to say, I thought I had it bad, but this in particular, I think, is… this one scene is worse than any bullying I’ve ever had to endure. It’s the humiliation, it’s the physical attack, and it’s the spectacle that just… you’re your worst self. Snape is nothing but a victim here, and it takes away his ability to… he just can’t defend himself. He feels so helpless.
Andrew: What a silly thing to wash out a mouth. I think my mom did that to me once as well; I wish I remembered why. But I feel like that’s on its way out. [laughs] That’s a parenting trick…
Micah: Yeah, I don’t think you could get away with that… yeah, I got the cayenne pepper when I was younger.
Andrew, Eric, and Laura: Cayenne pepper??
Andrew: Is that a spray?
Laura: They would put that in your mouth? No, it’s a herb.
Andrew: Wow. What did you do, Micah?
Micah: It’s very, very hot. I probably said a word I shouldn’t.
Andrew: Is that why your voice is so deep, because of that cayenne pepper?
Micah: Yeah, exactly.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: If people want to get a deeper… Andrew, there’s still time for you. Go get some and…
Andrew: Okay. Alexa, order me a cayenne pepper. Does Taco Bell sell them?
[Micah laughs]
Eric: The P.O. Box is getting flooded with thank you letters to my Micah’s mom. “Thank you for making his voice so low. Thank you.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: The owls are very busy today.
Micah: Yeah. And Lily comes to Snape’s defense and has a go at it with James, but Snape makes the mistake of really not wanting any assistance here, and turns around and calls her a Mudblood. And I just think this is in the moment; he’s upset. He’s more upset, obviously, with James than with anybody else, but he just is throwing hatred in as many directions as he possibly can, and he hits Lily, who we know is supposedly… I don’t know where their friendship is at this point, but was friends with him at one point.
Laura: Yeah, I’m wondering if at this point she and Snape have already had their falling out. We get to see that in Deathly Hallows in Snape’s memories as well, but she basically tells him, “You’re running with this very dark crowd of people; I don’t want anything to do with it,” and I’m wondering if that has already transpired as of this point?
Andrew: I would say yes, because Lily is trying to defend him in this scene and yet Snape still says this awful thing to her. And yes, he is very angry because of what the Marauders are doing in this moment, but I don’t know. Something else is missing here, and I think it is that falling out.
Laura: Yeah. Well, then she almost laughs a little bit…
Micah: She does.
Andrew: Right.
Laura: … when James turns Snape upside down and exposes his dirty underwear. And then she says, “Oh, you may want to consider washing your underpants, Snivellus,” so she really turns after he calls her “Mudblood.”
Eric: And I think that’s it. I think this is why this chapter is called “Snape’s Worst Memory.” The memory isn’t that bad or his worst because he’s been bullied – he’s presumably bullied all the years he’s at Hogwarts – but I think the reason that this is Snape’s worst memory is because he gets to this place of being so humiliated that he calls a girl he actually is in love with a Mudblood, and it gives her permission to no longer care for him.
Micah: That’s a great point.
Eric: I think he is his own worst self at this moment. I don’t think he really does care about blood status at all, especially when it comes to Lily; he’s willing to overlook it. But because he says it, he’s outwardly trying to be cool, like, “Oh, I don’t care about a Mudblood; I don’t need any help from a Mudblood…” You ever say something and you regret it for the rest of your life? That’s this moment for Snape.
Micah: Right.
Eric: But Lily did what she could. She’s trying to defend him. She clearly loathes James, and that’s something that Harry takes away with him into the next chapter. But it’s because he called her this that she’s able to divorce herself from any next level feelings for Snape.
Micah: And you get a sense that this was all a show for Lily, essentially. That’s why… James is just acting out, right? He’s trying to flex his muscle a little bit, be cool in front of all the students that are watching. Most of them are presumably enjoying all this, with the exception of Remus, who’s frowning on the side…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: … and Lily, who tries to step in and make a difference. And it’s interesting here, because there’s a lot of… I see a lot of connection between Harry and Lily here, because I feel like Harry would do what Lily does in this moment and step in to try and rescue the person, right? He’s got a saving people thing. So actually, outside of looks and being good at Quidditch, he’s much more of his mother’s son than he is his father’s.
Laura: Yep.
Eric: I think it’s a good point. Even when James says, “Oh, I’ll stop all this. Go out with me, Lily. Go out with me, Evans.” The fact that he’s willing to see this whole behavior as bad or a means to an end to get a date, basically, with Lily is completely different than any line of thought that Harry has ever had cross his mind.
Micah: And I would just add that’s why I think it’s so important that he has his mother’s eyes, particularly as it relates to Snape, because all Snape can see is James, with the exception of the eyes.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: If Harry had James’s eyes, too, Snape would have killed him, probably.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: I mean, because it gets to that level. Snape is so forced on the ground, can’t even move, and he’s saying something like, “Just you wait,” or “You wait,” and that’s all he can sputter out while his mouth is still dripping of soap, is “You wait.” I see instantly the thread of history that leads to Snape betraying the wishes, confiding the prophecy that he happens to overhear, to Voldemort, because it means that James Potter is marked for death. And I can see instantly – this is the brilliance of the writing – is I can see instantly how one scene leads to the other. Snape is going to be the one to condemn James Potter to death and prove that he ain’t shit, because in this moment, he is absolutely the shit. It’s bad.
Micah: Yeah. Well, this can be a whole ‘nother discussion about the effects of bullying and what that can lead to, but it’s a fair point that this really puts James’s head on the chopping block, essentially, for what happens in the future. But I will just note, though, that Snape’s reaction and his response, whether it’s intentional or unintentional just in the moment, it’s one of actual physical violence, and I think that’s important here, right? He physically cuts James. James is bleeding as a result, as a response to what’s happened here, whereas James’s spells, they’re not necessarily physically harmful, they’re more just taunting. I’m not trying to resolve him of responsibility here; don’t get me wrong, but I do think it is interesting that Snape’s response is physically harmful to James.
Eric: I mean, Snape is a caged animal. He’s going to lash out a little bit. I think as someone who is bullied, you almost strive for trying to be physically… you want to lash out and then stop this attack and all future attacks, don’t you? I don’t know. He just cuts his cheek a little; I don’t think it’s that bad.
Laura: I mean, none of it’s good or appropriate, but I think it’s the equivalent to if you were ever in school and you witnessed somebody being bullied mercilessly to the point where they finally threw a punch.
Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s pretty bad. He is cutting him. If you see something like that happen in school, in the real world, that’s a big, big problem.
Eric: Yeah, but I mean… well, he’s cutting him, but he’s cutting him in a magic school where you could do a…
Andrew: Easily fix it, yeah. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah. So I think that is only a minor adjustment that needs to be made mentally, I think, on our parts.
Andrew: True. Or heck, even breaking bones. That’s simple to fix, too, sort of.
Laura: Well, and every time Snape tries to get off the ground, James does something else, so I think that this is Snape’s response of just trying to shock James and to stop.
Andrew: Yeah, scare him off.
Laura: Yeah, exactly.
Micah: It reminded me of Sectumsempra, so I wonder if it was a bit of a precursor to that. And just maybe Snape goes about coming up with these spells because of the fact that he’s been bullied.
Eric: Probably. And actually, I’m glad you brought up Sectumsempra, because this Levicorpus spell that James uses at the end, Snape invented.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: It’s directly stated in, I think, Book 6. But I mean, James is using his own spells against him, and we know how Snape feels about that. [laughs]
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: Well, I think that wraps up the chapter. Obviously, Harry gets caught; we know the implications for that moving forward. It makes a bad day for Harry even worse. But I thought we could just end talking about how Harry is left feeling, because this has to be a pretty discomforting revelation for him about his father.
Andrew: Oh, yeah. And it’s noted just how Harry feels very sad. He feels defeated. He’s suddenly realizing that his dad was a you-know-what, and poor Snape was a victim of James’s abuse. So it’s really interesting how Harry feels so bad and he’s just so shocked, but he can’t sit down with Snape and talk to him about it because now Snape hates him and is embarrassed. I just kind of feel for Harry in this scene because I feel like he wants to talk to Snape and be like, “Hey, I hear where you’re coming from; I’ve been in this situation too,” but Snape doesn’t want to hear that. He’s done with Harry.
Micah: Totally.
Eric: Yep.
Andrew: Of course, this flashback did fuel speculation over whether Snape loved Lily or vice versa, and we have a TBT clip now. Back on Episode 91, which was released May 19, 2007 – so of course, this was before Book 7 was released – we were debating whether Snape really did have a crush on Lily, and this little clip stars Eric and Laura.
[Flashback clip plays]
Laura: Maybe they were friends. A lot of people think that there was a whole secret love affair going on; I don’t. But they think that they might have taken some upper-level classes together and that Lily might have actually helped Snape the way that Hermione helps Harry.
Ben: Lab partners or something.
Eric: Well, lab partners is plausible, but I think it was unrequited, whatever it was. She felt sorry for Snape.
Laura: No, I don’t think that they liked each other that way.
Eric: No, I totally think that she felt sorry for Snape but didn’t actually… I mean, Lily is the kind of person who strikes me as… she respects humanity. She’s not going to insult Snape because he had bad parentage. She’s not like that; she’s smarter than that. But at the same time, I don’t think she was in love with Snape at all.
Laura: No.
Eric: I just think she was nice enough to him and genuinely nice enough that it just sparked… he had a crush on her and he wanted to act on it, but she just didn’t feel that way. But at the same time, she’s going to stop James Potter from completely humiliating him.
Laura: Do you really think that he liked her, though?
Eric: I’m saying if he did, I don’t think it was…
Laura: As a crush? I don’t know.
Eric: I don’t think it was platonic.
Laura: I don’t really think he did.
Eric: I don’t think it was returned love.
[Flashback clip ends]
Micah: Wow.
Andrew: Interesting.
Laura: Look at you, Eric.
Eric: I can’t listen to myself, honestly, these days.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Oh my God. Yeah, I know, I heard my 18-year-old voice, and I was like, “What happened?”
Micah: Wow.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, you both sounded like babies. That was before Laura took the cayenne pepper.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I think you were right there, Laura, and I wasn’t taking into account the Spinner’s End stuff, so definitely wrong.
Laura: I mean, I think you were kind of right.
Andrew: Yeah, you were.
Eric: All right!
Micah: Eric finally wins the debate.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I still can’t listen to it. That’s going to be hard.
Micah: It’s also worth noting, though – speaking of connecting the threads, right – that this chapter is basically bookended with mentions of Mudbloods. First it’s Hermione, and then it’s Lily.
Eric: Ohh.
Micah: One by Draco, one by Snape.
Andrew: Interesting, interesting.
Micah: I don’t know. What does that say? Is there hope for Hermione and Draco? Does Draco secretly love Hermione?
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: I mean, according to Cursed Child, aren’t they kind of friendly later?
Andrew: Yeah, but they’re not in love or anything. Come on.
Micah: Anyway.
Andrew: All right.
Laura: I mean, we didn’t think that Voldemort and Bellatrix were in love either, but…
Andrew: True. That’s true. Well, we’ll stay tuned for Book… 9? 10? To learn more about Hermione and Draco.
Micah: There you go.
Andrew: Let’s move over to the Umbridge Suck count now. The count currently stands at 69, and there are a few to add this week. For thinking she should be Head of Hogwarts.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: And does become Head of Hogwarts. For creating the Inquisitorial Squad.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: And then this one, this is a big one: letting the Inquisitorial Squad dock any number of points for any number of reasons, and we listed off those reasons earlier, including being a Mudblood, for your shirt being untucked… how many should we give Umbridge for this?
Laura: I think we should give her one for each type of point deduction.
Andrew: Wow.
Laura: So one for being a Mudblood…
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Laura: One for your shirt being untucked…
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Laura: One for not liking you, Potter…
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Laura: One for Hermione contradicting Draco…
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Laura: And then I think the other for Ernie contradicting Draco?
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: So that was five. Wow, wow.
Laura: I think she… that is egregious.
Eric: Yeah, she made each of those things possible justifiable reasons, so I agree.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Well, trying to drug Harry. That’s worth at least two, I think.
Micah: I think, yeah, it’s got to be more than one.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Laura: Teacher trying to drug a student.
Andrew: And then her inability to control some magical fireworks created by two 16-year-olds.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: And for asking Filch for help. I mean, that might be worth another point as well.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: I’ll give her two for that. Okay, so that’s…
Micah: 11.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Wow, 11 more. So now we’re already up to 80. Woo!
Micah: All right.
Eric: [laughs] You guys think we’re going to break 100? Or is it gong to rest just under…?
Micah: Oh, for sure.
Andrew: Wow.
Laura: We will definitely break 100.
Andrew: How fun. I can’t wait to crack 100. We’ve got to have a party at 100.
Eric: We earned each of… well, Umbridge earned each of these. That’s just so unbelievable. I don’t think we were careless with these; I think each of these times she has indeed sucked.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Laura: I think once we’re done with this book, we need to go back and do an Umbridge Suck count fast cut where we take all the Umbridge Suck counts from all the episodes…
[Eric laughs]
Laura: … edit them together into one major Umbridge Suck count episode…
Andrew: All right, Laura, get working on it.
Laura: … send it to J.K. Rowling… yeah, no, I will, and then send it to J.K. Rowling and be like, “Here you go.”
Micah: She’s worse than Voldemort.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Okay, now it’s time for the James Suck count. No, I’m just kidding.
Laura: [laughs] He deserves it.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: It’s time for MVP of the Week.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to Peter Pettigrew for working his way into a cool group of people. He’s a loser, and he got his way in there, so I’m pretty impressed by that.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I’m going to give it to the wizards playing cards. There’s a portrait of a witch that has to go into their portrait when the fireworks are happening, and they stand up out of their gentlemanly good nature to let the woman into their frame.
Micah: I’m going to give it to Professor Flitwick for not only administering the OWL exams to the Marauders, but for also saying to Umbridge, “You know, I could have taken care of the fireworks, but I wasn’t sure if I had the authority to do so.”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: It’s a great moment. I’m going to give mine to the Weasley twins; those fireworks were amazing. They got Harry out of a tight spot.
Andrew: True that.
Laura: It’s perfect.
Rename the Chapter
Andrew: Okay, and now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “Harry’s Worst Lesson.”
Eric: Aww. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “The Test.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: That is very lackluster. I forget why I said that. I guess…
Andrew: The OWLs?
Eric: It’s because of the OWLs, but it’s also… yeah, it’s whether Harry is going to make the decision to violate Snape’s memory. All that kind of stuff.
Micah: It’s all a test.
Andrew: Okay.
Laura: And he fails.
Eric: And he fails it, yeah.
Micah: All right, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “Daddy Issues.”
Andrew: [laughs] That’s my favorite this week.
Micah: I like Laura’s.
Eric: Me too.
Laura: [laughs] I said Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “How I Met Your Mother.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Good stuff. Well, it’s been a big episode of MuggleCast. If you have any feedback about this week’s discussion, send it on in to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send us a voice memo, just like Griffin did. Tell us about your favorite meal at Taco Bell.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: And we’d love to hear from you. It’s really great to hear from our listeners.
Quizzitch
Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Last week’s question: What are the three spells that James casts on Severus, besides Levicorpus? They were, of course, Expelliarmus, Impedimenta, and Scourgify. Correct answers… we actually got a lot of correct answers. Congratulations to these winners of Quizzitch: Sarah, Caleb McReynolds, A Man Is Quarantine, Marissa, Samwise, Food Forest Next Door, Count Ravioli, Erika, Rachel, Matthew Two Beers, Stacy Z., Where in the World Is Kevin Steck?, and Diego Not Ruby.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Wow, Where in the World Is Kevin Steck? came back.
Andrew: Where in the world was Where in the World Is Kevin Steck?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Welcome back, friend.
Andrew: I have to also say, Count Ravioli became a patron in the past week…
Laura: Yay!
Andrew: … and I sent her a video “Thank you” message. I was so excited to see Count in the list there.
Micah: Did you address her as such?
Andrew: Of course! Of course I called her Count.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: I mean, that’s her name on Patreon too now.
Micah: Oh, is it? Nice.
Andrew: So welcome, Count Ravioli, to Patreon. [laughs] She said she couldn’t resist the T-shirt.
Micah: Nice.
Laura: They are really nice.
Andrew: We’ll have to send her some ravioli with that T-shirt, I think.
Eric: [laughs] Uncooked, I hope, so that… sealed.
Micah: She can cook whenever she wants.
Andrew: Yes, yes.
Eric: Yeah, exactly.
Andrew: Not poisoned. Nothing like that.
Micah: Doesn’t get all over the shirt, yeah.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I also have to shout-out to our friend Andrew, who has been submitting the Quizzitch answers…
Andrew: Oh, thank you.
Eric: [laughs] Shout-out to Andrew. No, Andrew V., who has been submitting Quizzitch answers over Facebook. We don’t typically take them there, but he said he doesn’t have Twitter and isn’t going to get one.
Andrew: [laughs] Not even for us.
Micah: There you go.
Eric: He’s been correct the last couple episodes.
Micah: I like it. He’s standing firm, standing his ground. Not giving in.
Eric: Yeah!
Andrew: Some people submit via email too…
Micah: Yeah, they do.
Andrew: … and we appreciate that, and it’s nice hearing from you, but we typically check only via Twitter. But thank you for playing; we do appreciate it.
Eric: Yes, thank you, Andrew V. Next week’s question: What punishment does Umbridge instruct Filch to give the Weasley twins for their swamp?
Andrew: Uh-oh, Spaghettios.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. We would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and like I mentioned earlier, you will receive that special 15th anniversary T-shirt if you pledge at the Dumbledore’s Army level or higher; just be sure to pledge by June 30 to receive it later in the year. We’re really excited to get those out to everybody. Don’t forget to follow us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and we will keep everybody posted with the latest show developments. I think we’re going to be off over Memorial Day weekend, but we will be doing Quizzitch Live the week before. Okay, thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everybody.
Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.