Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #696, Expelliarmy! (OOTP Chapter 18, Dumbledore’s Army)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, where we go chapter by chapter through the Harry Potter books and keep you updated on the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. We are your Harry Potter friends and your weekly ride into the fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Andrew: And this week, put on your ballet shoes and meet us on the seventh floor of Hogwarts, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.” And to help us with this week’s discussion, we’re joined by our podcasting partner, Pam! Podcasting partner, Pam. Welcome back, Pam.
Pam Gocobachi: Loving that alliteration.
Andrew: Cohost of What the Hype?! and Millennial. Nice to have you back on the show to talk Harry Potter with us.
Pam: Nice to be back with you all.
Andrew: I consider Pam the biggest Harry Potter fan out of the five MuggleCasters, if we’re including Pam, because she has the most different editions of the Harry Potter books.
Pam: You bring this up every once in a while.
[Andrew and Pam laugh]
Andrew: Listeners, as we continue to analyze the books and cover the Harry Potter TV show, we would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By becoming a MuggleCast member, you’re helping us conjure up episodes of this indie podcast, and in exchange for your support, we offer you instant access to lots of great benefits, like more MuggleCast. We release two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month on our Patreon, and in these we have fun talking about different aspects of the Potter fandom outside of Chapter by Chapter. And in a bonus episode coming this week, I am very proud to present my episode by episode plan for the Harry Potter TV show.
Eric: Wow.
Andrew: As a teaser for my Episode 1 pitch. Let me tell you all right now it’s going to instantly win over longtime Harry Potter fans, because it’s going to be very different from how the movies open, and it’s just going to prove to us that they had good reason to do the Harry Potter TV series.
Micah: I would sign up for bonus MuggleCast just for that pitch alone.
Andrew: Right? Right? This could be a long bonus MuggleCast. I’m going to try not to make it a long one, but…
Pam: Smart of you to put it behind the paywall, too, because you don’t want to work for free.
Andrew: Yeah, I don’t want Warner Bros. stealing this!
Pam: WB has got to pay you. [laughs]
Andrew: That’s a great point.
Micah: Well, I think it would be a fantastic idea if this goes the length of, let’s say, two bonus MuggleCasts; then I don’t have to plan one for later in the month.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: It’s true; sometimes they do double duty.
Andrew: Listeners, be sure to check that out. And after you pledge to our Patreon, you can actually listen to bonus MuggleCast episodes and to ad-free episodes of MuggleCast right within your favorite podcast app, so it’s very easy to enjoy this bonus content just like you do regular MuggleCast.
Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner
Andrew: All right, now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.”
Eric: Aw, yeah. It’s a little bit of hope cracking on the horizon, everybody.
Andrew: [tearfully] Some much needed hope.
Eric: Some much needed hope. We last discussed Chapter 18 on Episode 454 of MuggleCast; it was titled “Drinky Winky.” Gee, I wonder why.
Micah: That might be my favorite episode title ever.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: [singing to the tune of Teletubbies] “Drinky Winky, Dipsy, Laa-Laa, Po. Teletubbies…”
Eric: Oh my God.
[Pam laughs]
Eric: And Po. Well, here is a fun little clip from that episode.
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.
Ron: What the…?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 454.
Andrew: I was wondering, has anyone ever been guilty of encouraging someone to do something so you could live vicariously through them? I always think of gambling.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: It’s a lot of fun to watch people gamble, because it’s not your money.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: And then once you start playing, you’re like, “Oh, never mind.”
Eric: I have provided that service for others, where I gamble and lose money for their entertainment. Yes, I have done it.
Micah: I’m not going to Vegas with you, Andrew.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: This is a red flag right away. You’re going to be on the roulette table.
Andrew: Yep. Let me watch you play.
Micah: You’re just going to want to put the little chips on the board for me and then hope for the best.
[Whooshing sound]
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.
[Bell dings]
Andrew: Did you pick that clip, Eric, because I now live in Vegas?
[Andrew and Pam laugh]
Eric: There were several reasons for picking that clip, but yes, that’s probably one of them.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Micah: That’s funny.
Eric: I’m wondering, Andrew, tell us, are you still up to no good with that? Are you still encouraging others to gamble?
Andrew: [laughs] Maybe not encourage others to gamble, but I still prefer to live vicariously through others and watch them gamble rather than play myself.
Eric: Smart, smart.
Pam: Plus, isn’t your favorite phrase “You gotta bet big to win big”?
Andrew: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.
Pam: That’s very enabling. [laughs]
Eric: It’s very coercive, yeah. Oh, man.
Andrew: I want to see a Harry Potter slot machine. That hasn’t happened yet.
Pam: Oh, I’m sure it’s somewhere at the MGM.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay, I’ll get looking.
Micah: I feel like it’s got to be somewhere. That’s the one thing we didn’t do when I was in Vegas, Andrew. We didn’t go to any casinos.
Andrew: When you’re a local, you don’t play. I mean, I would have happily taken you, though.
Micah: I think I was coming from a hotel that had plenty of slot machines in there if I really wanted to. But it was a work trip, so you try not to dabble in that.
Andrew: Yeah, be professional.
Eric: Always stay a few thousand dollars behind your boss. That’s the rule.
[Everyone laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Eric: But anyway, I mentioned this chapter has some hope to offer us, however, not right away, unfortunately. We have a lot of indecisiveness on the part of the trio, and Hermione in particular. So she is now convinced that Hedwig was intercepted by Umbridge and that it’s been basically a whole false pretense to come up with the lie about Dungbombs so that Filch could get at Harry’s correspondence, which is a huge violation. And of course, it’s under the guise of keeping the school safe, secure, but what bothers me about it is Umbridge is very much a character that does not act in good faith, and she will really roll out all the tricks she has in order to do something that is illegal or very heavily not above board.
Andrew: Yeah, well, and this reminds me of how here in the Muggle world, post-9/11 we had the Patriot Act, in which it became easier for the government to start tapping our phones. And there was reason for it, but it also made a lot of people rightly uncomfortable that it suddenly became easier for us to be surveilled. The thing about this situation in the book is that Umbridge has a false pretense, whereas that one in the Muggle world was more justified, maybe not entirely so, though.
Eric: Yeah, so it’s a real invasion of privacy in general, but it’s done under some level of justification.
Micah: Yeah. And I wanted to look this up, because I remember when growing up, I would always hear, “Don’t open somebody else’s mail; it’s illegal.” And it turns out that it is true here in the US, that opening up somebody else’s mail is a federal crime. It’s called obstruction of correspondence, and it’s a serious felony that could lead to you ending up in jail. And so I figure if you layer on animal cruelty to this, Umbridge is really getting herself into some hot water if she were to be caught for doing any of these things. But I did want to ask, is there any kind of similar crime in the UK?
Andrew: I looked into this for you, Micah, and actually, yes, it is also illegal over there. Under the Postal Services Act of 2000, specifically Section 84 of the Act makes it an offense to intentionally delay, open, or interfere with someone else’s mail without reasonable excuse. So actually, intentionally delay mail? Didn’t Dobby do that in an earlier book? [laughs]
Pam: Damn, everyone’s going to jail.
Eric: Oh, but that happened before 2000! It happened before…
Andrew: Ohh. Ah, you’re a good lawyer for Dobby. [laughs]
Pam: Loophole.
Eric: It wasn’t illegal in 1992.
Andrew: Maybe they were reading the Harry Potter books and they were like, “Wait, that doesn’t sound right. We need to make this illegal.” [laughs]
Pam: I wonder if the same rate, though, extends to schoolchildren at a private school, or if that would be another loophole where they would say, “For the safety of everyone involved, we have to reserve the right to check correspondence.”
Eric: Oh, that’s a heck of a thing.
Micah: Could extend that to the Dursleys as well. Feel like we’ve talked a little bit about the fact that they were keeping Harry’s mail from him.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Maybe the first…
Pam: I mean, he was ripping it up, right? Uncle Vernon. Not necessarily opening it, technically, so maybe that’s how he’d get off. [laughs]
Andrew: But also just delaying Harry from being able to open it by trying to hide them and rip them up.
Micah: But I will say, I love that we found this connective thread for the Dursleys, Dobby, and Umbridge. They’re all very much headed to the slammer.
[Andrew laughs]
Pam: Maybe they can share a cell.
Andrew: The unexpected connection between Dobby and Umbridge.
Micah: Cell mates.
Eric: Yeah, so we have all of this evidence now – or it seems like evidence – that Umbridge is committing these wrongs against the students, and yet, this group that they’re building in order to combat this stuff is currently giving Hermione second thoughts. She actually has regret. She asks them, “Are we doing the right thing?” And there’s a funny moment with Ron where he’s kind of exasperated about it; he’s like, “This was your idea, Hermione.” But it’s just clear to me that stuff is really getting real, and Hermione is feeling two things that she is, which is young and vulnerable, and like a student, so she really feels powerless to affect any kind of change on a scale that’s going to make it worth it, given their sacrifice.
Pam: Well, it’s one thing, too, to be responsible for yourself and for maybe your two best friends, since it’s an unspoken thing that the trio are in it together. But it’s another thing to be responsible for 25 other students, right? And I think that’s where she starts to get cold feet, because it’s not necessarily about doing the right thing; it’s about doing right by those people that didn’t maybe necessarily understand what they were signing up for in terms of facing the wrath.
Andrew: Yeah, I think the size of the group is daunting, but I think this is normal for most of us when we’re embarking on something new, and certainly something that might be a little risky. So I think Hermione is grappling with several things here, and it’s a good lesson for readers, seeing somebody experience this doubt. Hermione tends to be a pretty brave person, and for her to hit this wall is a good bit of character development.
Micah: Yeah, it’s the weight of consequence, too, because she doesn’t know what’s going to happen. And certainly, if they’re caught, they could get in a lot of trouble, and that’s not something that I think she’s really prepared for. It’s one thing to get in trouble with Dumbledore; it’s another thing to get in trouble with the Ministry.
Andrew: Right, the big scary police.
Eric: The po-po. Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I think, though, from a reader’s perspective, especially because we’ve read this book before, we know that Dumbledore’s Army does create positive change for everyone. We know it’s a good thing; it’s adding value. The characters at this stage can’t possibly know that; they won’t even have the first lesson until the back half of this chapter. But knowing that it is such a force for positive change, and tracking that, I feel like nothing short of the spells they learn in this year end up saving those kids’ lives two years out in the Battle of Hogwarts that’s coming, and we see, I believe, a lot of the students using those types of spells that they got during the DA to survive during Voldemort’s assault on Hogwarts. So it’s, I guess, heartening… or actually harrowing, sad, to see Hermione so uncertain, because she single-handedly, with the help of Harry and Ron, have created something that’s going to really matter to people; they just don’t know it yet.
Andrew: Yeah, but they do know it even by the end of the chapter. The chapter ends with Hermione saying to Harry, “That was really, really good, Harry,” and Ron backs her up, says, “Yeah, it was!” enthusiastically. They’re experiencing that successful relief, maybe you can call it, at the end of this chapter after the first meeting. They’re over the hill; they’re over the fear of putting together this group, and they can see the effects, and – like Eric, you’re saying – in time, they’ll look back and be even more proud that they did decide to go through with this despite that initial fear.
Eric: Is there a moral lesson here? As far as…
Andrew: Conquer your fears!
Eric: Don’t give up; you’re doing the right thing.
Pam: I think you could actually probably link it back to… what is it? In what book did Dumbledore say that “We must all face the choice between doing what is right and what is easy”? So she’s doing the right thing, but it’s not easy for her to go through with it.
Andrew: Yeah, that was in Goblet of Fire.
Micah: There’s definitely some anticipatory anxiety going on.
Eric: Yeah. Now, something that I think is a low blow is either Harry calls Hermione out on it, or she outright says it, that Sirius is a huge reason why she’s having second doubts, because he’s a reckless godfather.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I can barely talk about this. It hurts so bad.
Pam: Aww.
Eric: But just because he is feeling useless and stuck at his home does not mean that wanting to do something to oppose the Ministry is a bad plan, right? They’ve gotten this far because they see the need. So yeah, you can question someone’s motives, but don’t just assume that because they want what you want, that what you want is wrong.
Micah: That’s a great point, yeah. With Hermione, though, would she expect any different from Sirius? This is right up his alley.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: She should have anticipated this, or not been surprised by this. Crackpot theory: Sirius was actually trying to do some reverse psychology here. He actually didn’t want them to do this, but said he loves the idea just to screw with Hermione and get her to doubt herself.
[Andrew and Pam laugh]
Eric: I love that headcanon. That works for me.
Pam: I just think, too, she’s seen the slow decline of just how reckless he’s been, because even if you look back to Sirius’s advice to Harry in Goblet of Fire, he’s the one that’s telling Harry not to do anything rash, like, “Think about what you’re going to do before you actually do it.” And that’s a big juxtaposition going from that to him trying to egg Harry on and being like, “Oh, the risk is what would have been fun for your father.” That’s kind of like a slap in the face. I think Hermione, she sees it more… and I think that rereading this for the purposes of this show through an adult lens, I see why she is worried about that. But as a teenager, I read this and I was like, “Yeah, why are you being so mean to Sirius?” I get it.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: That’s the problem; I’m still in my teenage mental state, going, “Why is everyone hating on Sirius?”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: That’s the big takeaway. Pam is calling you a teen. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah. Which, hey, whatever.
Pam: Teenage petulance. [laughs]
Micah: I think perhaps that Hermione is reacting less to Sirius and more to Molly, and the message that Sirius gives the trio from Molly, specifically to Ron. But I’m sure Hermione doesn’t want to be in a position where she feels like she’s disappointing Mrs. Weasley.
Andrew: Yeah, she’s going to have to see Molly again, Mrs. Weasley again. So yeah, I think that gives her some pause. Though, Hermione does just straight up say in this chapter that it is Sirius who’s giving her pause, but it’s probably both forces. It’s disappointing her best friend’s mom, who she is going to have to see again at some point, and Sirius encouraging this devious behavior.
Micah: Right.
Pam: She really does carry a lot more burden than we realize, I think.
[Micah and Pam laugh]
Pam: And this argument specifically is making me realize that she probably worries more than Harry and Ron combined, and it weighs on her.
Andrew: Yeah, and she was responsible for this idea. I mean, she and Ron pitched it to Harry, so if they did get in serious trouble, this was her fault. This wasn’t Harry’s fault.
Eric: That’s a fair point.
Micah: They all agreed, though, so equal responsibility. Her idea, but they’re co-conspirators. I did think a little bit about this, though, and how Hermione still very much puts trust in authority figures, but gets very apprehensive around advice from those she considers to be more reckless in nature. And it’s not just Sirius in this chapter; we see it a little bit later on with Dobby, and it’s only when Harry validates the Room of Requirement via Dumbledore that Hermione relaxes.
Eric: Right.
Micah: But I thought to myself, let’s not forget: If the Order knows about Dumbledore’s Army via Mundungus, Dumbledore knows about Dumbledore’s Army, and he’s not stopping it. So Hermione should feel validated in her initial decision to form this group.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: The fact that Dumbledore hasn’t bust down the door.
Pam: That’s a really good point.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s some big brain thinking. I love that. That’s a really good point.
Micah: Thanks.
Andrew: It’s too bad nobody said that to to her, but oh well.
Eric: Yeah. So one of the things that happens right at the middle of the chapter is that Harry’s scar hurts. And I think when they’re going back and forth, if you split this chapter in halves, the first half is, “Did we do the right thing?” The second half is, “Hell yeah, we did the right thing.” But right at the middle, Harry’s scar hurts, and I think this was really poignant because it showcases what the threat is. It reminds readers, because it’s been a little while since we’ve gotten this level of insight into Voldemort, and just reminds the audience what’s at stake maybe, I think.
Andrew: Yeah, why they are assembling this group.
Eric: Yeah, ultimately it’s easy to get hung up on this whole Umbridge crap, but the real bad guy is out there.
Andrew: Yeah. Ariane says, “Hermione is so used to following/trusting authority. Don’t we all have massive doubts when we break out of our norm?”
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: And when we do, when we do break out of that shell, and then we crush it – like we see by the end of this chapter, Hermione is very pleased with how it went – you just feel elated. You’re like, “I got over that hill, I broke out of my comfort zone, and this is going to pay off.”
Eric: I think that’s part of growing up, to your point. And this is not intended as a hit piece on Hermione, though she should be nicer to Sirius.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: He’s not going to be alive very much longer, so I feel confident saying that.
Micah: For nothing else, for her cat who loves Sirius.
Eric: Yeah! Aww.
Andrew: Think of Crookshanks, Hermione. I mean, some people put a lot of weight in your animal loving another human. I know somebody who’s always like, “Oh, my dog loves this person.”
Pam: Good judge of character.
Andrew: Good judge of character! So Hermione should be looking towards Crookshanks and trusting.
Pam: I mean, Crookshanks was after Wormtail before they knew he was Wormtail, so he’s got a good track record.
Eric: It’s a fair point. Although, I’m debating whether to say this because it undercuts the “Sirius should get more trust” argument, but as far as a cat goes, it’s kind of easy to win them over as long as you have food.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: That is true.
Eric: Good judge of character, or simply providing their basic needs? An open question.
Micah: Martha was basically my best friend once I had those little treats in my hand.
Eric: That’s what I’m saying; it’s why we give them to people. She’s a little nervous otherwise.
Andrew: Micah, give yourself more credit. All animals love you, as you saw in my home as well.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: Literally.
Micah: Yeah, I will never forget it.
Eric: So you did have a question here, Micah, about the Horcrux.
Micah: Yeah, and you were talking about Harry’s scar, and I thought it was interesting how he’s starting to be able to differentiate between when Voldemort is feeling certain emotions. He talks with Ron about how when his scar was hurting with Umbridge, it was because Voldemort was happy, and now his scar is hurting him because Voldemort is angry. And there’s this line in this chapter, which I think is so important and probably so easily glossed over by us as readers going through this on an initial read, and it said, “What was this weird connection between them, which Dumbledore had never been able to explain satisfactory?”
Andrew: And yet, Ron encourages Harry to go to Dumbledore with this information, and he says, “No, Dumbledore already knows,” and yet Harry is realizing that he is able to explain it now.
Eric: Yeah, these two have beef. It’s not going to get resolved until a particular…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: It’s not really beef; it’s just an adult ignoring a child and his needs.
Andrew: I think Harry has beef with Dumbledore, but not the other way around.
Eric: That’s kind of what I’m saying.
Micah: Oh, okay.
Eric: Dumbledore should not… I don’t think Dumbledore is surprised that Harry has beef with him, but he could be doing the extra mile to check in with Harry, except he’s deliberately avoiding him for the reasons that we know.
Micah: And this is the second time so far that we’ve seen where Harry has been encouraged to go speak to an authority figure, and he’s chosen not to.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: So maybe we should keep this in mind when we try to put all the blame on Dumbledore. I mean, it sounds like Harry has some issues to work through as well. It’s a two-way street.
Micah: Well, because Dumbledore has been ignoring him for the past several months. Won’t even talk to the kid.
Eric: Won’t even look at him.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “I’m very busy. I’m very busy.”
Micah: You’re busy? What are you doing?
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Oh, I’m busy. Just don’t worry about it. All in due course, you’ll know.”
Eric: He’s counting chamber pots.
Andrew: [laughs] “How many have I not filled up just yet?”
Eric: So now it’s the part of the chapter where everyone who’s been reading the book up to this point can finally breathe, because something finally happens that goes right.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Dobby comes to the rescue, both with a fully functional and repaired Hedwig, but…
Andrew: That criminal Dobby. Mail-stealing Dobby.
Eric: I mean, I think Grubbly-Plank entrusted him to give her to Harry. I guess she knew he was going that way. But yeah, so basically, back in the common room, Harry – who is not confiding in Dumbledore – does have a flash, a stroke of genius, and he decides to ask Dobby, “Hey, do you know a place where we can practice DADA?” And Dobby does. And what’s interesting here – it’s kind of a blink and you’ll miss it comment, like the one we highlighted up above – but Dobby says he heard tell of the Room of Requirement from the other Hogwarts house-elves, and I find that interesting. Obviously, we know Dobby has been using the Room of Requirement to help Winky out, but I think largely the way that it’s presented during this reread, I’m thinking, is that mostly the elves know about this. Very few students… we see a few humans talk about it; Dumbledore has mentioned it. Fred and George are like, “Oh yeah, this was a closet for us once; we were hiding from Filch.” But on the whole, this seems to be in the domain of the elves. And so I wanted to ask – this is going to be this episode’s Lynx Line question as well – but if the elves do use this room and know about it, what do they use it for? So we’ll get to that in just a moment. But my theory on this matter would be that, because we’ve always heard house-elf magic is different than wizard magic, maybe something about the way that the Room of Requirement works… it seems a bit more open-ended; it seems a bit more, I don’t know, special than all the other standard wizard magic, a rotating staircase, say, that maybe the type of magic that powers the room is closer to elf magic to the point where an elf that’s passing by, or lives in the castle in fair proximity to this room, would get a tingle or a sixth sense that something is going on in that room. So that’s my crazy crackpot theory about elves and why they know about the Room of Requirement.
Micah: I like it. I just like the fact that Hogwarts would have parts of it that were potentially built by non-witches and wizards.
Eric: There’s that too.
Micah: Makes me think about the Fountain of Magical Brethren quite a bit. And the other reason why I really love this is because in Hogwarts Legacy, so much of our relationship with Deek, one of the house-elves, is based in the Room of Requirement.
Eric: Right, it’s where we meet him, it’s where he’s introduced, and it’s something of a refuge for Deek and you.
Andrew: Yeah. No, I do like this theory, Eric. I actually wouldn’t consider it too crackpot that the house-elves are somehow responsible for creating the Room of Requirement, or at least helped build it.
Eric: Well, I appreciate that.
Andrew: One question I had about the room, though – and maybe we could talk about this more as the series progresses – but it’s always bugged me that it seems like only one person or group can use the Room of Requirement at a time, because I would have to think when people start hearing about it, demand can fill up pretty quickly. And if it is the Room of Requirement, and one of its key benefits is that you can basically just walk up to it and be like, “I need help now,” it’ll help you, except when somebody else is already in there? So I just don’t understand how that works. I feel like it’s a flaw of the Room of Requirement for it to not be able to accommodate multiple parties at the same time.
Eric: Well, you can get into the room when somebody else is in the room as long as they didn’t ask it to become inaccessible, the way Draco does in the next book. But the room can’t itself be two things at once, I don’t think.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: Or if it is two things at once, the second thing that it is is a broom closet that deters Harry because Draco is in there to use it for…
Andrew: [laughs] Or Dumbledore is peeing in there right now.
Eric: Yeah, yeah, maybe something small it can be two things at once. But yeah, I mean, I agree with you; I think it’s mostly the one thing. And I bet it’s just down to bandwidth. There’s a lot of magic, a lot of powerful magic going on to… that room is waiting on you hand and foot.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Pam: Well, kind of similar to how it can transform back into the same room, even if two different people are thinking for different reasons. Like becoming the hiding room, basically; it’s very clear that students across the ages have had to hide things in Hogwarts at some point or another, and that’s just the room where they go hide things. But everybody’s mind is different, so you would assume that everybody would have their own hiding room; it wouldn’t just be one room. But it seems like it’s pretty… it’s simple but complicated.
Eric: Yeah. So after we find out about this amazing Come and Go Room, Harry does resist the urge to visit it immediately. I’m proud of him, everybody. Very happy.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s growth right there. Resistance. Patience.
Micah: Smart move.
Eric: That is growth. I honestly think it’s Hermione rubbing off. “Are we doing the right thing?”, etc.
Andrew: No, yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, that thought crosses Harry’s mind. And also, he’s tired. He’s like, “Oh, I just need to rest already. I’ll go check out this room later.” No rush; it obviously will be there the next day.
Eric: So we’re about to describe the room at great detail. But something that we pointed out in Episode 454 of MuggleCast way back in 2020 is worth repeating, which is that Chapter 18, which this is, sees Harry using the Marauder’s Map to help him navigate, and students getting to and from their common rooms to the first DA meeting. And the same chapter number, Chapter 18 of Prisoner of Azkaban, is “Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs,” where we get the in-depth look at the creators of the Marauder’s Map.
Andrew: Damn, good catch.
Micah: Connecting those threads.
Eric: Yeah, past us. Nice work.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: So here is a short description of where the room is: The entrance to the Room of Requirement is located on the seventh floor across from a tapestry.
Andrew: [gasps] Seventh.
Eric: What’s that?
Andrew: Seven! Seven reference.
Eric: Oh, I didn’t even see that! Yeah.
Andrew: [laughs] Really? It’s bolded.
Eric: I did bold it. Yeah, the seventh floor across from a tapestry of Barnabas the Barmy “being clubbed by those trolls,” which is what it’s described as earlier in the chapter, and then later, a “foolish attempt to train trolls for the ballet.” This tapestry is as interesting, if not more, than the Come and Go Room, I think, itself. What is the meaning, if there is any to be discerned, of this tapestry being in front of this room?
Andrew: I did have the same thought as you that there has to be some sort of symbolism going on here, so I was trying to come up with some sort of theory to explain this. Umbridge would see the DA as a foolish attempt to train an army.
Eric: Ohh.
Andrew: And so in this analogy, Harry and company are the trolls who are attempting to thwart her. But maybe more broadly, I think this portrait could symbolize being able to do whatever you want in this room, something as random or foolish as trying to train trolls for ballet.
Eric: Oh, so sort of “The possibilities are endless”?
Andrew: Yeah, right, exactly.
Eric: Maybe Barnabas used this room in order to try and train the trolls.
Andrew: Oooh.
Pam: I wonder if it’s like… barmy means going mad or going crazy, and you would think you went mad if you found a room and then went back to find that room and it was gone.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, or you’re going mad trying to figure out a solution for your problem, and then here’s the Room of Requirement.
Micah: Part of me thinks that it might be a commentary on the fact that you can’t force things to go against their true nature. So here you have somebody trying to train trolls to do ballet, but yet he’s getting clubbed by all these trolls, because there’s no way they’re going to do ballet. That’s just not in their nature.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It also reminds me of what Hagrid tries to do with his brother later in this book, sort of the futile effort. But I like that, Micah, as far as you can’t change things or their nature. There’s an old parable that’s the scorpion and the frog, which reminds me of that. But yeah, anyway, it’s sort of ironic, also, because you can make the room be whatever you want; we’ve yet to really see too much of a limit on it. So that’s also fun, as you have on one hand, a futile attempt, and on the other side of the same hallway, infinite possibility.
Andrew: Yeah. And this portrait does make an appear in Hogwarts Legacy, by the way. Do we see it in the movie?
Pam: No, it’s the unicorn tapestry that’s in all the rooms.
Andrew: Ahh. [laughs] They just reused something. “We’ll save a little money.”
Pam: Yeah, which I think is a famous tapestry. [laughs]
Andrew: Got it.
Eric: So we mentioned this earlier, but Hermione hears from Harry that Dumbledore mentioned this room. And it’s one of those things where Harry only thinks about it after the fact, like, “Oh, this one time he mentioned it,” and she’s put immediately at ease. And I also have to give her credit, because she does… when they all get in there, she sees the books, the crazy assortment of books; she knows that they made the right choice. And not fully distracted by the books, she’s the one that starts off the meeting with formally electing Harry the leader of the group. And I think Ron scoffs at her, like, “Why are you doing this? Obviously it’s Harry.” Or Cho, even, just scoffs at Hermione. But I think it’s important to get those little things out of the way, because it Zacharias Smith-proofs these proceedings.
Andrew: And also, by appointing Harry the leader, if they get caught, it’s Harry’s problem.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: Nice!
Andrew: She washed her hands. “That was the leader. That was his fault. I didn’t think of this idea.” No, I don’t think she had that intention.
Eric: That’s her last personal security.
Andrew: I don’t think that’s what she was thinking. But yeah, it’s important to have a leader for this organization so there isn’t all this infighting, because if the group does explode, if it does blow up, then somebody is going to possibly rat them out. And then, obviously, Hermione has a contingency plan for that, but it’s just good for organization’s sake, and probably, like I said, for her comfort level.
Micah: It’s setting the table and making things very clear from the start, which I think, given some of the folks in this group – as you said, Eric, basically Zachariah Smith-proofing it – is important.
Eric: You just know he would ask, “Wait a minute, why are we listening to him?” Just by the cheek that he gets over them studying Expelliarmus, to which Harry… can we just give Harry the credit that he’s an excellent teacher? It comes very naturally to him; he has a knack. And this idea to teach them the Disarming Charm… somebody like Zacharias might and does scoff at that, but all Harry has to say is, “I actually used this against Voldemort, and it saved my life.”
Andrew: “Any questions?”
Eric: Yeah, how can you argue with that? You can’t.
Andrew: No.
Micah: I’d be like, “Really? That’s what got you away from him?”
Andrew: [laughs] “Some Chosen One you are.”
Eric: Micah has got some Zacharias Smith in him, I think. This is exciting.
Andrew: Micah would have voted for Zacharias to lead Dumbledore’s Army. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, man.
Micah: I don’t know about that, but I’d be skeptical of Expelliarmus being the spell that saved your behind from the Dark Lord.
Andrew: No, that’s fair.
Eric: It’s true.
Pam: Would you, if he keeps getting thwarted by a 12-year-old, though? Like, man’s tried to kill him how many times?
[Andrew and Pam laugh]
Micah: He should just give up and go live somewhere else in the world at this point.
Eric: I think it’s just that they’re not expecting a defensive charm; they’re expecting to learn an offensive charm.
Micah: True. Well, especially after all of what has gone on in Umbridge’s classes up until this point, to have to start with something like that. It’s like, “Well, that’s not sexy. That’s not appealing. I thought we were coming here for the good stuff.”
Andrew: Right, all the anticipation of Dumbledore’s Army, the secret underground club, and then they start with a disarming spell.
Pam: But I also think it shows that Harry is thinking back on where his defensive skills started. And Lockhart didn’t teach him much, but going to that Dueling Club did teach him that the first step to dueling was learning how to disarm, so everybody has to start somewhere. And it seems to me like maybe only people that went there learned how to disarm, and maybe they just didn’t teach that in the DADA classes.
Micah: The fundamentals, that’s what you have to start with. And he doesn’t know the baseline for how good any of these students are.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point, too.
Pam: Turns out most of them are really bad at disarming, too. [laughs]
Eric: Well, it illustrates the purpose of needing this club.
Pam: Yeah, exactly.
Andrew: Well, speaking of really bad, something that caught my eye was that everybody starts pairing up to practice Expelliarmus, and Neville is actually the odd man out. He can’t find somebody to partner up with, so Harry ends up practicing with him one on one, which I found interesting because the prophecy could have also been about Neville, and now Neville and Harry are the ones training together in Dumbledore’s Army. I wonder if that was an intentional choice for that reason.
Eric: I like that a lot.
Pam: Me too.
Micah: Aside from the fact that nobody wants to partner with Neville?
Pam: I know.
Andrew: Come on.
Eric: Aww.
Andrew: I know, I just insulted him too.
Pam: That part makes me sad where he’s like the last picked in gym class.
Andrew: Yeah, but that’s Neville throughout the series, right? The odd man out.
Pam: I know.
Andrew: Poor guy.
Micah: But who better to pair with than Harry? Than the teacher?
Eric: That’s true.
Andrew: Yeah, but if that happens in school, that means you’re not cool. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, it’s bad.
Andrew: “Andrew is stuck with the teacher. Oh, he’s got no friends.”
Eric: Oh no.
Pam: Sounds like we’ve opened an old wound here. [laughs]
[Andrew fake cries]
Micah: But Eric, going back to what you were saying earlier, I do love how good of a teacher Harry is, and I think a lot of it draws upon his lessons with Lupin.
Andrew: Yep.
Eric: Absolutely.
Micah: Lupin is probably the best teacher that Harry has had. He’s learned the most from him, and we see his ability to take so much of what he learned from Lupin and apply it in this book.
Eric: Yeah, that’s really the rubric for which he’s using. And it starts, I think, with empathy, with understanding that people are going to be at different levels, and saying, “Hey, that’s okay.”
Odds & Ends
Micah: So a couple of odds and ends that I picked up on from this chapter: Fred and George, they continue to test their products out on themselves. We’ve talked a lot about Fred and George throughout the course of this book, and the fact that they are not meant for Hogwarts for very much longer. Hermione throws a lot of shade their way, unfairly, but they’re pushing ahead.
Andrew: And their butts aren’t meant for brooms right now, because they’ve got some lumps on them, they said. [shudders]
Micah: It’s like every chapter has a little bit more of information that we don’t want to hear about in terms of the things that these two are experiencing.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But look, if you’re going to open up a joke shop and create all these very cool, different things that students can use to presumably get out of class, good on you for testing them out on yourself first. And then we need to give some kudos to Ginny, because she is the one who names Dumbledore’s Army.
Eric: Aww. I wasn’t going to bring this up; I’m so glad that you did.
Andrew: This makes Eric feel better after Hermione’s rough comments on Sirius earlier.
Eric: Yeah, but I really think it’s a group effort. Yes, Ginny is the one that alters “DA” to mean “Dumbledore’s Army,” but it’s really… they’re lobbying or vollying ideas, and that’s ultimately something they can all be proud of, is that they come up with this title together. It’s symbolic of the work they’re going to be doing together this year.
Andrew: Yeah, and of course, it tees up later on when Dumbledore takes the blame for Dumbledore’s Army.
Superlative of the Week
Micah: Well, it’s such a good name that now we’re going to change it.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yes, of course. So what is the best alternate name for the DA? Andrew?
Andrew: Expelli-army!
Eric: That’s so adorable.
Micah: I really like that, actually.
Andrew: Thank you. Thanks.
Micah: That gets my vote.
Eric: Yeah, mine too. I went for basic: Fight Club.
Andrew: [laughs] Well, that works, because you don’t talk about Fight Club.
Eric: That’s right, yeah.
Pam: Right.
Andrew: For any kids who haven’t seen that movie.
Eric: Have you actually seen Fight Club, Andrew?
Andrew: I have, believe it or not.
Pam: Wow.
Andrew: I haven’t seen many movies, but…
Eric: I can’t believe that’s one of the five movies you’ve seen.
[Micah and Pam laugh]
Micah: I went with Potheads.
Andrew: [laughs] Micah. Short for Potter? Potheads?
Micah: Short for Potter.
[Andrew and Pam laugh]
Andrew: That used to be a name. Well, not Potheads, but remember when the media always used to call Harry Potter fans “Potterheads”?
Pam: Yeah, I hated that.
Andrew: I never liked that. Yeah, me too.
Pam: Super cringe.
Eric: Oh, I had a soft spot for it.
Andrew: Aw.
Eric: And Pam, did you have an alternate name?
Pam: I did; I didn’t write it down, but I think I would have gone with the Junior Order. But then I realized that they’re not supposed to talk about the Order either.
[Everyone laughs]
Pam: So maybe it’s not a great name.
Andrew: Umbridge is like, “Hem-hem? Where’s the Senior Order?”
[Pam laughs]
Eric: Oh my God, hilarious.
Lynx Line
Eric: Okay, well, finally, let’s get over to our Lynx Line answers. And again, the question this week was: Obviously Dobby needs the Room of Requirement to help Winky out, but what do the other house-elves use the Room of Requirement for if they do? And I think we’ll go in host order.
Andrew: Rachel said,
“I really want to think of the elves using it for something fun or restorative, but with the exception of Dobby, they’re so work driven. I can see it being a spot to grab extra cleaning supplies, or reference books for new recipes or home care. Maybe a place for elf medicines or a quarantine too, since I can’t imagine house-elves in the hospital wing, though that should totally be a thing.”
Eric: I like that. Carlee says,
“Elf library. Books about anything they might care about. How-to books on home maintenance, fairy tales where the elves are the protagonists, cookbooks, elf history books, even raunchy elf romantasy!”
Andrew: Ooh.
Eric: Not going to be un-thinking that anytime soon.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Next one is from Xavier, who says,
“My guess is that they don’t just use it for one thing. Need cleaning supplies? Boom, broom cupboard. Where to put wizard trash? Boom, elfish garbage dump. Need to let off some steam because your masters are the Malfoys? Boom, room full of oven doors and fire pokers to hit yourself on to your heart’s content. Sick elf? Boom, elfish hospital wing fully equipped with magical ailments for elves, which is the name of Hermione’s new company: Magical Ailments for Elves. This is my last Lynx Line; my membership expires tomorrow. Bye, MuggleCast!”
Andrew: No, Xavier! Come back!
Pam: Aww. [laughs]
Eric: Thank you, Xavier.
Micah: Xavier went boom.
[Andrew and Pam laugh]
Andrew: His membership went boom.
Pam: This one’s from Jen OG, who says,
“The house-elves work hard and use the Room of Requirement to relax by recreating the Eras Tour every night! They all take turns being the star of the show, although nobody can outshine Dobby’s Reputation era!”
Eric: Wow, I love how creative that is.
Andrew: Pam is a huge Taylor fan, and honest to goodness, I did not…
Pam: Oh, did you put this in for me? [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, but I didn’t intend for you to read it.
Pam: Oh, okay.
Andrew: That just happened to be the order it got placed in. That’s funny to me.
[Pam laughs]
Andrew: Paula said,
“Magical movie night! I like to think they get a break from their hard work, and they use their magic to create beautiful shows.”
Oh, like live theater?
“There’s popcorn, candy, and no need for bathroom breaks as this is the Room of Requirement, after all.”
Eric: Badgerforth: “It’s 100% their dump. Where else does wizard trash go? The Room of Requirement, of course!”
Andrew: Aww. That makes me sad to think the house-elves are just using it as a dump instead of a place to put on live performances of Shrek: The Musical.
Micah: Cassandra said, “Since we never see any food deliveries at Hogwarts, maybe this room becomes an enormous farmers’ market run by agricultural elves.”
Eric: That’s really creative.
Pam: And Jeff says,
“Hermione has got it all wrong. The house-elves aren’t laboring all day in the kitchen; they’re actually sneaking off to the Room of Requirement to pick up pre-made meals and pretending like they cooked it themselves.”
Eric: Oh.
Pam: Wow, that’s a scandal.
Eric: It’s not delivery; it’s DiGiorno!
[Pam laughs]
Andrew: It’s not food cooked by the house-elves; it’s Factor meals, a MuggleCast sponsor. Zachary said,
“It’s where they go for a nice stiff one after our hard day’s/night’s work. It’s their home away from home, away from their condo barrels in the kitchen.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: That’s a cute addition from Hogwarts Legacy.
Andrew: Yes.
“A place where they can lounge on the beanies from Hermione that Dobby can’t fit on his head and discuss all the hot goss surrounding the castle.”
Oh, house-elves are total gossip queens. I hadn’t thought about that until now.
Pam: They definitely know everything that’s going on in the castle.
Andrew: And their big ears? They’re hearing so much happening.
Eric: And we know they throw some shade.
Andrew: Max that, Max that.
[“Max that” sound effect plays]
Eric: We also received many other responses, including several others that think that house-elves simply use it as a place to relax or blow off some steam. I do like that, this idea that the house-elves are not immune to some stress, and so the Room of Requirement is like a spa or a place to relax. I like that a lot. Thank you, everyone, for submitting that. Don’t forget that you, too, the listener, can participate in Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at the Patreon.com/MuggleCast address at our Slug Club level.
Andrew: Really fun new benefit we have; we’re really enjoying hearing from our listeners. And if you have any other feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Our next Muggle Mail episode is just a few weeks away; it’ll be Episode 700, and next week we will discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.”
Quizzitch
Andrew: Now it’s time for everybody’s favorite game show, Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s question was: What bird did the Ancient Greeks, Ancient Romans, and Genghis Khan all use to send their messages? The correct answer was pigeons!
Micah: Doves.
Eric: And because you learn something new every day, here’s how they did it: You would take pigeons that were from a certain region or area of the world and take them to these foreign cities where you were sending letters from, and truly, all that they would do is they would fly home with a letter attached.
Andrew: Oh, interesting.
Pam: Oh, is that where the “homing pigeon” saying comes from? Like, “I’m just a homing pigeon?”
Eric: Yep, it’s pretty neat, because in the Harry Potter books, it’s all magic; owls magically know where to find you. But anyway, 72% of people said they didn’t look it up; they knew about the pigeons, which is exciting. And those correct answers were submitted by 100% Ravenclaw since the beginning; A Healthy Breeze; Aberforth’s abs of dumbledough…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: … AmyTheOldBoot; Beautiful plumage; Buff Daddy; Hermione’s Boggart Is Herself; I binge podcast when I’m not listening to audiobooks; I finally get to go back to work, March 23 hopefully; “I knew just the right answer!” in Andrew’s Gilderoy Lockhart voice, meaning it’s a lie because he’s a fraud; I tawt I taw a puddytat; John Lithgow reached out and got the correct answer. Nice job, John.
Andrew: Oh! Wow.
Eric: A.k.a. Michael; Julie Anne Fae; QuidWitch; The Hungry, Hungry Hufflepuff; and Umbridgerton.
Andrew: Oh, clever, clever.
Eric: Very clever. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: The abbreviation “DA” may most commonly refer to this position as chief prosecutor in a United States criminal case. What is the position with those initials that has a history stretching back to 1813? Because we always strive to be educational. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on the website, checking out transcripts or anything else, must listens page, etc., click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.
Andrew: And also check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us, including Pam. Thanks for joining us again today, Pam. Pleasure to have you on.
Pam: Of course.
Andrew: In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Micah and Laura are reviewing the latest season of The White Lotus, and on Millennial, we’re talking about the “Buy it nice or buy it twice” shopping trend. All of these shows are brought to you by Muggles like you, and there’s lots of great ways to help us out. One of our newest ways is by visiting MuggleCastMerch.com to get official MuggleCast gear. You can also visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast for two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month. You hear that, Warner Bros.? That’s how you’re going to hear my plan for Harry Potter Season 1. You’ve got to pay up. Everybody else can also get ad-free episodes of MuggleCast. You can hop into a monthly Zoom hangout. There’s many other magical perks, all at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, send an owl to a friend about the show, and please cast a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Pam: And I’m Pamela.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.
Micah and Pam: Bye.