Transcript #456

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #456, A Giant Waste Of Time (OOTP 20, Hagrid’s Tale)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we are discussing Chapter 20 of Order of the Phoenix, “Hagrid’s Tale,” but first, we have a couple pieces of Muggle Mail to address. First of all, Eric, you upset some people last week with your librarian comments.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Always making trouble; last week was no different. Letizia wrote in,

“Librarians most definitely should have a seat at the professors’ table. I’ve listened to your podcast for many years. I feel compelled to write now to set the record straight about secondary school faculty. Librarians are teachers. Yes, they manage a room full of books, but they also collaborate with classroom teachers, ensuring students have the right sources – print and electronic – for students to complete assignments. Librarians teach students how to do proper research; not everything is Google-able, and librarians guide and advise students on reading selections, how to cite sources, and assist with technology. Librarians have been portrayed rather poorly in the scant amounts of movies and books. Please don’t put Madam Pince in the same category as Filch. Librarians in public schools have master’s degrees; librarians at the college level often have two master’s and, in many cases, a PhD. Proud Ravenclaw.”

Andrew: So you were joking, right? [laughs]

Eric: I was absolutely joking. I was talking about the actress and not recognize her at first, always assuming she was Sinistra. I have the utmost respect for librarians; it’s really true. I have some close friends that are librarians. But I just think it’s wildly inconsistent who gets to be at the Hogwarts high table, and you see Hagrid up there before he’s even a teacher, so there’s a little bit of weird leeway there as far as who gets to be at the high table, which may have led to my confusion, but I just want to flat out apologize if anyone was offended by my comments.

Andrew: This is just a lighthearted email. We don’t have to take it too seriously.

Eric: Oh, okay. Phew.

Laura: I do think there’s some weird favoritism that happens at Hogwarts, and it’s a lot to get into, but it could be a really good bonus MuggleCast, so something for us to keep in mind.

Micah: Totally agree with everything that’s been said in this email. However, downplaying Argus Filch and his role, now are we going to get a bunch of emails from those who are responsible for the upkeep of schools and institutions?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, because custodians are people too.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. They work extremely hard.

Eric: And they’re not in their job because they couldn’t… yeah, I mean, they were the hardest-working people in my high school, guaranteed.

Andrew: Yeah, and they work long hours at night, all alone in the dark. It’s kind of sad.

Micah: You wouldn’t probably even want to touch some of the things that they find in the stairwells.

Eric: Oh, God.

Andrew: But Filch is kind of a bad person, so I don’t think we should really defend him, either.

Micah: But do we know Madam Pince, really?

Andrew: Well, she’s a librarian. All librarians are wonderful people.

Eric: With two master’s degrees. Let’s move on. [laughs]

Andrew: We also have this voice memo from Robert about Harry and Draco:

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi, MuggleCasters. I’m calling about Episode 455, and particularly when Eric suggested that the bullying by Draco of Harry would invalidate any possible slash fiction about a relationship between them. Actually, this is one of the oldest tropes in romcoms, and shows up very frequently where two characters who can’t stand each other wind up falling in love, most famously in a movie called The Shop Around the Corner, remade as You’ve Got Mail, and also the musical She Loves Me. And it just happens that there is a currently a movie streaming on Hulu called The Thing About Harry, which is exactly this setup where two guys who were in middle school together, one bullying the other, wind up in a relationship.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Yeah, I went on a date with one of the costars of that movie, and it still hurts that he became a major star in Grey’s Anatomy. But anyway.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: This is actually what happened to Laura and I once. In the early days we hated each other, and then we fell in love.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: So it happens in the real world, too.

Laura: And then there were certain other discoveries made that interrupted that love.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: See 30 seconds ago, when Andrew’s talking about the guy from this movie.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Also, Eric, I didn’t realize you had such a rough week last week. I thought it was a great episode.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, I’m glad people are listening. That’s all I hope for ever.

Andrew: Micah is calling it a great episode because Eric is getting attacked.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: He loves when Eric gets attacked.

Eric: Genuinely, I love the feedback because it allows me to grow.

Andrew: Yeah, of course.

Eric: And yeah, I think Draco was just especially bad last week. That’s all.

Andrew: I didn’t really… we didn’t talk about this more in the Chapter by Chapter discussion, but they do get along in Cursed Child and they work together to find their sons, and I think it signals that they were able to find some peace with each other. Were they best friends suddenly? No, but there was some resolution there.

Eric: Yeah, and definitely Draco’s arc in Half-Blood Prince really helps him to turn the corner into being a more reasonable human being.

Micah: I think also the fact that Narcissa saves Harry’s life probably has something to do with it as well.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, for sure. All right, so before we get into Chapter by Chapter, just want to mention that we are now halfway through the book. Eric noticed this. I can’t believe we’re halfway through already, actually.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: This time is flying. Reading this again, has this changed how we feel about the book? At least for me, it’s been a while since I read Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Same. For me, the things that stick out most are just how many opportunities Dumbledore would have had to be prominent, and he’s not taking them. You know Dumbledore is avoiding Harry as a general over-stroke of the book, but it seems like every chapter we’re asking the question, “Where’s Dumbledore?” So that definitely is sticking out a lot more. And then Harry’s bad temper is actually about exactly where I remember it being too. It’s not great.

Andrew: I was actually going to say I remember him being a lot angrier than he is, maybe because there’s still a lot more to come.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But I don’t know; I just remember… the running joke with this book has always been, “Oh my God, he’s so angry, he’s so angry. All caps Harry, hahaha.” But he’s been able to keep it together for the most part.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, and especially at this point in the book, angry is not how I would describe him, but he gets there. We all know what happens at the end.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: For sure. I would say it’s different reading it for the story, which obviously you do the first time that you read it, versus reading it for analysis, because there’s a lot of things that we’ve talked about over the course of the first half of this book that wouldn’t have even dawned on me, probably, the first time that I was sitting down and reading Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Yeah, for sure.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, well, onward. Let’s go to Chapter 20, “Hagrid’s Tale,” and we’ll start with our seven-word summary. Hagrid…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: … returns…

Eric: … and…

Micah: … fails…

Andrew: Fails or bails?

Micah: Fails, with an F.

Andrew: … to…

Laura: Lord.

Andrew: What?

Laura: I’m trying to think of what to do. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, all I heard was “word.”

Laura: … reveal…

Eric: … lies.

Andrew: Fails to reveal lies.

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: I would have said “everything.”

Eric: The linchpin is “fails.” I don’t know what he fails to do in this chapter.

Micah: Keep quiet.

Eric: The funny thing is every week, there’s somebody in our MuggleCast patrons Facebook group who asks the fellow patrons to OWL rate – the OWL grades – our seven-word summary.

Laura: Oh no.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: What did it receive?

Eric: Not yet; it just happened.

Micah: Oh.

Eric: But yeah, previous ones have gotten Acceptable. I think there may have been an Exceeds, but yeah, not sure.

Andrew: I say Troll across the board.

[Everyone laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: Well, Hagrid is back. Everybody get excited.

Eric: Woohoo!

Micah: It was the only good thing that happened, really, at the end of the last chapter. But I think this is a little bit questionable on the part of the trio, given everything that has just happened in the prior chapter, to throw on the Invisibility Cloak and run down to Hagrid’s Hut. Did they not learn anything given the punishment that Umbridge had just handed down?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: It is surprising, but they see Hagrid as one of their best friends at Hogwarts, and given how long he’s been away, I think they have reason to… I think it makes sense that they wouldn’t even be thinking about their recent punishment; they just want to go down there and see where the hell he’s been.

Eric: It is a bit reckless; they’re not really taking the precautions they should be to go and do this. It’s like him being back is such a desperate… they so desperately need to see him, and see a friend and have a friend and have their friend back, that they aren’t smart about it.

Micah: And I do blame Dumbledore to some extent, because I feel as if – to the point about having a friend – if he was there for them to listen, especially given everything that’s just gone on, then they wouldn’t feel the need immediately to jump. Although maybe they would, because there is an excitement about the fact that Hagrid hasn’t been seen in a long time.

Andrew: Also, there is no way the trio can still fit together under the Invisibility Cloak.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I know J.K. Rowling notes that Ron has to crouch because he’s getting tall, but still, three people under one blanket?

Laura: I always got the impression that the cloak was larger than an average personal cloak would be, just because of them constantly being able to use this even at age 15.

Andrew: But then if it’s so large, when it’s just one person it would be so baggy and be flowing on the floor behind you like a bride’s dress, and you could be tripping over it.

Eric: What’s the word for the blankets you wear with the sleeves?

Laura: Snuggie.

Eric: Snuggie, thank you.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I wanted to say ShamWow; that was something else entirely. Yeah, Snuggie. I always pictured it kind of like a Invisibility Snuggie. [laughs]

Micah: So Hagrid can’t tell the trio what he’s been up to despite their pleas, although it doesn’t take a whole lot of convincing on the part of Harry to make him spill the beans. But I think that begs the question, why wouldn’t Hagrid share where he’s been, what he’s been up to? Does he not trust, especially, this group of people?

Eric: I think we’ve seen this before, and it has to do with how seriously Hagrid takes all these missions from Dumbledore. He just seems to be… he is told to keep it to himself, because let’s face it, Hagrid is a bit of a blabbermouth, right? Give him a few drinks; you take him to a pub, and he’ll tell you how to get past Fluffy. I think that Hagrid, on his own road to self-betterment, is just really trying to be a little bit more tight-lipped, probably because Dumbledore has asked him to be.

Andrew: Right, exactly. But he flips when he hears that Harry has had some interesting stories that he could share as well. I just love that Hagrid can’t keep up his guard; we see this numerous times throughout the Harry Potter books. Because Dumbledore asked, it’s good that he tried, but he just can’t resist because he wants to know what the kids are up to. An eye for an eye.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah. And they don’t lead with “We are in the Order now,” or… they could probably… I guess I can see them trying to persuade Hagrid by saying, “We stayed at the headquarters all summer. We’re one of you; you can tell us.”

Micah: And in all fairness, Harry doesn’t really get a chance to share much of his story outside of telling him that he was expelled. Because I think Hagrid’d have a much different reaction to Umbridge showing up had he known everything that she’d done to Harry over the course of these last couple of months.

Eric: Definitely.

Andrew: Oh yeah, for sure. He would have killed her.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Fang could have just licked her face until she…

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: I do wonder if Hagrid doesn’t trust the kids, though. He really should at this point. They’ve been through a lot; they’ve been able to keep secrets that Dumbledore asks them to keep. It’s not like they leak stuff, so why not talk to the kids about it? This isn’t a particularly touchy subject, either, is it? “I went to the giants to see if they could be on our side during this upcoming fight.”

Laura: Well, I think that Hagrid has always placed a great deal of stock in Dumbledore’s opinion and Dumbledore’s trust in him; that’s really valuable to him. And I think also, we’ve seen a few examples throughout the series of Hagrid trying not to tell the kids too much because they’re kids. So he knows that he shouldn’t, but then he just gets carried away and ends up telling them way more than he should.

Eric: There’s also a history of them misusing the information he gives them, or he knows that they – he even says it in this chapter – that they’re up to… they concern themselves with this stuff that they ought not to meddle in far too often. And so if he tells them this, even though it’s seemingly innocent information, they’re going to… they could mount a quest now to go visit the giants if it was something that the plot of the book wanted them to do. They’re exactly the kind of kids who would go and do that and say, “Well, Hagrid failed at this, but we can do better,” so maybe that’s some of the hesitation.

Micah: And as he’s recounting his tale, at least the first part of it, we get a sense of where he’s been, and it seems like actually a pretty interesting trip to start. He’s evading Ministry officials. He’s watching out for Death Eaters. But he, of course, does find himself – as only Hagrid would – in a pub at some point during this trip, and to answer last week’s Quizzitch question, Hagrid had a slight disagreement with a vampire in a pub in Minsk. And the giants that they come across are in Russia? Is that true?

Eric: You’d have to do a map; all those countries are real close together in the mountains. I think several countries share a mountain range. They cross Poland. They go through Belarus. It makes sense it’s in that… it’s definitely in the Eastern European area.

Micah: All right, but this brought up the question, what do we know about vampires in the Harry Potter series? There is that occasional reference, but we don’t get a whole lot.

Andrew: So Harry meets Sanguini in Half-Blood Prince at Slughorn’s party, but yeah, we don’t get a lot. And I forgot that J.K. Rowling actually wrote a little bit on vampires for Potter-No-More; this was back in August 2015. This lives on on WizardingWorld.com. She said, “The vampire myth is so rich, and has been exploited so many times in literature and on film, that I felt there was little I could add to the tradition. In any case, vampires are a tradition of Eastern Europe, and in general I tried to draw from British mythology and folklore when creating adversaries for Harry.” So that’s why she does name check them a few times throughout the series. But I did find that interesting that she was like, “You know what? Everybody’s done a good enough job with vampires. I don’t need to add anything here.”

Eric: Right. It’s kind of nice of her to just acknowledge they exist and to place them generally where we would expect them to be placed, and then move on. But that Sanguini… we mentioned this on our recent chapter reread of that Slug Club chapter, but Sanguini seemed to be eyeing some of the female students quite hungrily, as I recall, and that’s a little… that makes me nervous.

Micah: Hungry for what?

Andrew: Mmm, their blood.

Eric: For blood.

Andrew: And it’s kind of funny that J.K. Rowling wrote that, “You know, vampire stuff, it’s been done a lot.” Meanwhile, Twilight comes up in popularity a couple of years later, just blows people out of the water; not necessarily because they’re… well, I guess the vampire angle was very important, but it was the romance that really made that.

Eric: That was the immediate successor to Harry Potter, wasn’t it?

Andrew: Yeah, it was.

Eric: Yeah. That’s so funny.

Andrew: Did any of you buy into the “Snape is a vampire” theory, by the way?

Laura: No.

Andrew: I didn’t either.

Eric: I kind of did. I definitely wanted to see it happen, but not for the least that in the last book, he leaves a bat-shaped… doesn’t he turn into a bat and escape?

Andrew: Well, he does fly away.

Eric: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Andrew: Or at least in the movie he does.

Micah: Yeah, there wasn’t a whole lot to that theory outside of his appearance, from what I remember.

Andrew: No.

Micah: Unless there were clear-cut examples where he wouldn’t go out in the daytime. I know that people would say, “Oh, his classroom…”

Andrew: Well, he did suck Harry’s blood in Book 3.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: I think Sirius calls him an overgrown bat at one point. She definitely fanned the flame, I would say. This was something that Rowling took and had a little bit of fun with, as is her prerogative.

Andrew: Yeah, Rowling says sometimes he’s “described as looking like a large bat in his long black cloak, he never actually turns into a bat, we meet him outside the castle by daylight, and no corpses with puncture marks in the necks ever turn up at Hogwarts.”

Micah: He’s also very pale, though, isn’t he? He has a very pale complexion, too.

Andrew: Yeah, that too, for sure. And that hook nose and the long hair. He looks like a vampire for sure.

Laura: You know what, though? I have a pale complexion.

Micah: So what are you telling us?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I’m just saying, draw your own conclusions.

Andrew: And you do stay up late into the night.

Laura: I do, yeah. Did you see my tweet at 3:00 in the morning? Is that what you’re referring to? [laughs]

Andrew: No, no, I just know that you do. Now I have to look for this tweet. Oh, yeah, there’s Laura getting political in the middle of the night again.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: It would be fun to know what the disagreement was about. I mean, let’s imagine this scene, right? You have Hagrid, who’s a half-giant, and a vampire conversing in a pub. They’re probably a little bit tipsy. Maybe they add some firewhisky, and who knows what they’re arguing about?

Eric: Yeah. I agree, this is something that is destined to be drawn up, or I don’t know, explained in fanfiction, just because the mental image is funny. It’s just very humorous, seeing this half-giant and this, I imagine, sort of a diminutive vampire keeping to himself, and they manage to have a disagreement with.

Micah: Yep, absolutely. So I also think it’s important to mention that Hagrid is traveling with Madame Maxime, so I wonder if she’s in the bar there, too, just kind of sitting in the corner, shaking her head at Hagrid.

Andrew: “There he goes again, fighting with the other types.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, we eventually get to the part of the story about the giants and their interactions with them, and we learn that the giants live in seclusion, and Hagrid says that it’s really our fault. It was the wizards who forced them to go and make them live a good long way from us, and they had no choice but to stick together for their own protection. So this is a bit sad, this group that’s been forced to live on their own in seclusion following this wizarding war, and it seems like this probably has a bit to do with the Ministry.

Laura: Oh, definitely.

Andrew: Yeah, because they forced them out of town during the first wizarding war, and the giants… I mean, the giants were on Voldemort’s side, so they kind of deserved it.

Eric: I think, too, it’s predominantly because of the Statute of Secrecy, right? You need to control these Muggles from seeing… you’ve got to prevent them from seeing the giants. And Hagrid even says there used to be tribes of giants all over the world, but now it’s not that way, and I think it’s largely due to the wizards’ decision to prevent Muggles from being aware of their existence.

Micah: Yeah, and I wonder, are they on Voldemort’s side in the first war because of what he promises them? Or are they just basically coerced into supporting him?

Laura: I think they’re… both of those things could probably be true. And I think also, when you have any kind of population that is underrepresented and treated poorly, they’ll tend to respond to whoever wants to give them something good, right? So with the giants, they’re looking at the wizards, and they’re like, “We don’t have any dog in this fight, because y’all have treated us like crap the entire time.”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: But then maybe Voldemort comes up and starts giving them really lavish gifts, or maybe he starts making promises to them and really taking advantage of their place in this society to make them feel like they might get something special out of the arrangement, which they clearly don’t. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, something special. Yeah. Well, maybe Voldemort promised he’s going to clear their student loan debt, and they just fell in love with that idea.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: That’s how it happens.

Micah: Clear their student loan debt through attacks on Ministry speculation?

Andrew: Maybe.

Laura: Sure.

Andrew: That was a joke, of course, because there’s no tuition at Hogwarts and presumably other wizarding schools.

Eric: Oh!

Andrew: Remember J.K. Rowling said that once?

Laura: Yep, and then everybody was like, “How is this sustained?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Talking crazy.

Eric: The normal way, though, right? Through taxes. [laughs]

Andrew: We need to ask her if there’s taxes in the wizarding world.

Micah: That’s a legitimate question, though.

Andrew: She’ll probably be like, “No.” [laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s post-scarcity, because magic helps you duplicate pretty much everything.

Andrew: Yeah, just make money. Is there a spell to make money? No, probably not. Otherwise, the Weasleys wouldn’t be poor, aww.

Laura: Right.

Micah: But could a giant go to Hogwarts?

Andrew: Probably not.

Laura: No.

Andrew: Security nightmare and all that.

Micah: Dumbledore would totally let a giant go.

Eric: Dumbledore’s relationship with the giants is a very interesting one. Dumbledore is a guy who knows a lot about a lot of stuff, but it is under his orders that both Olympe Maxime and Hagrid go and are told exactly what to do, even though… it’s confirmed in Goblet of Fire, right, that Maxime has giant blood? Does she say it’s a direct parent or a more distant thing, do you remember?

Laura: Well, I think Hagrid asks which of her parents it was, and she gets very offended.

Eric: Oh, that’s right.

Laura: Yeah, and it’s pretty telling.

Eric: But regardless, it’s this outsider in Dumbledore who helps them know what to do when they get to the giants. And I assume it helps that they look bigger than most regular people, that the giants are like, “Oh, something’s going on here; you’re not just wizards.” I think it makes sense to have envoys who are blood-related, just to ease the tension a little bit.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I think so. And we can talk a little bit more about that, but just going back to the point of communities being forced to live in seclusion…

Andrew: It just made me think about the Native American populations here in Northern America. We, in a lot of ways, have forced them out, and it’s really sad. And now there’s still battles today over building pipelines, for example, through Native American lands, or building a wall down along the Mexican border and tearing up ancient burial sites.

Eric: That was horrible.

Andrew: It’s still happening today.

Laura: And I think that comparison can be applied more broadly to indigenous populations around the world, because this kind of thing happens to indigenous groups everywhere, even down to… Hagrid talks about how there used to be all of these tribes and there used to be so many of them, but they’ve been forced into seclusion and it has ultimately resulted in their death, and indigenous populations all over the world are dying out because of this very thing, because of governments forcing them to live in these… at least here in the States, it’s reservations, right? And you look at them at one point having so much land and such vast populations, but when you force people into a corner, that’s not a sustainable way of life.

Micah: It also is why they are so hesitant to receive outsiders, and we see that when Hagrid and Madame Maxime show up, the approach to them is that they need to wait a certain period of time before even going down and presenting them with these gifts that they’ve brought. And when they do so, they’re carrying it above their head. It’s almost a negotiation tactic that you would see with law enforcement, right? When you approach a scene that’s highly… there’s a lot of tension, right? A lot of times… at least on television. I’m not saying this happens in real life.

Andrew: [laughs] Detective Micah has some stories.

Micah: No, no, but as you approach the scene, right, usually what do cops always do? They show their weapon, or they put down their weapon as a sign of wanting to really engage with whomever they’re trying to talk down.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: They don’t want to make it violent.

Micah: Yeah, and that’s kind of what’s going on here.

Andrew: Right, and with holding the gift up, they’re like, “Focus on the gift! Not that half-giants are holding it, not that everyday wizards are holding it. Just focus on the gift.”

Eric: Well, and that these giants are, what, 25 feet tall? They could probably kill Hagrid and Maxime with a flick of their… if they’re not careful, a simple kick or punch or a simple blow from one of these giants, who might not even be thinking about it to kill them, could injure them very severely.

Micah: One of the questions that I thought about, reading this chapter, was what’s the value of aligning with the giants? If they’re a depleted population that seemingly want to be left alone, why even waste the time in approaching them?

Andrew: Well, two things: If Dumbledore doesn’t get them then the other side will, and he probably knows that Voldemort is pursuing them, so it’s better that they’re on the good side. And two, I mean, just from a physical standpoint, they are giant and can kick some serious ass, so they are good to have on your side.

Eric: Yeah, I definitely think it is the part of “The other side is doing it, so we have to,” because the Death Eaters, if left alone, could really have… I don’t know, really swayed them. And we do see, I think, some giants in the end getting to Hogwarts. But the other thing that I think, as far as what was gained: Hagrid seems to really be content with just that some of the giants know Dumbledore’s name and know that Dumbledore was an alternative, knowing that there is an alternative out there, no matter how distant. And by the time anybody gets to Hogwarts, Dumbledore has died – by the time any of the giants get there – so I don’t really know what the point is, but maybe it was just that they know there’s an alternative to the Death Eater side of doing things, and because ultimately the Death Eater is siding with the Gurg, who is now murdering a lot of his own people.

Laura: Do we think that the Death Eaters sort of propped up this new Gurg and encouraged him to kill Karkus and all of these other giants?

Eric: Probably, because killing is what they are going to want them to do when in the war with the wizards, so they’re probably going to back the most violent of them all.

Andrew: And if they, the Death Eaters, caught wind of Dumbledore pursuing the giants, then maybe they wanted to create some chaos within the group so that there was less of a chance that Dumbledore would be able to woo them. And if that’s true, it worked.

Laura: I could even see them wanting to create enough chaos to further wipe out the population so that they can’t be used at all.

Andrew: And by the way, this story on a whole is just a great example of the good guys not always winning. I actually really like that J.K. Rowling wrote this whole tale about them trying to pursue the giants and it was basically all for nothing. I mean, there’s a Grawp storyline to come, but other than that, they did lose this fight with the Death Eaters and Voldemort.

Eric: I agree. Yeah, they really did. And it’s kind of also a lesson to the consequences of bringing that gift; that Gubraithian fire that they led with, for instance, is a really cool gift – and props to Dumbledore for being able to create such a thing – but interference from Death Eaters aside, just he who has that prized possession, people are going to seek it. It’s kind of like the story of the unbeatable wand later on; it’s like, if you have the coolest gift, people are going to covet that and they’re going to want that, and that’s just human – or in this case, giant – nature, I think.

Andrew: That would win me over.

Eric: Right?

Andrew: Some everlasting fire, yeah. You know what people love in vacation rentals, particularly out west? Fire pits. Turn it on; just stare at the fire.

Laura: I think that this is also a good example, and can be applied to real life cases, of people assuming that they know what certain communities need, without thinking about what the impact might be. Sort of like intention versus impact, like, “My intent was good, but the ultimate impact of what I did actually made things worse.”

Micah: Absolutely.

Laura: And this is something we see a lot when people think they know what to do to help groups of people, instead of listening to what those groups of people need or want.

Micah: And along those lines, I thought that with this whole gift exchange, that Hagrid is blowing his load right from the start, right? He’s putting his best gift forward as the first gift, right?

Andrew: Well, maybe you need that.

Micah: Do you give the best gift on the first night of Hanukkah? No, you wait until the end.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I think it’s really important to lead with at least your second best gift because…

Micah: Well, yeah, okay, lead with the helmet. But I did want to touch on something: I would add another group – to Andrew, what you were talking about before – and that’s the Ministry. I think that the Ministry played a very large role in this, maybe even to the extent that we don’t really know about. We know that they’re tailing Hagrid and Madame Maxime in the early part of their journey, but I find it highly coincidental that the Death Eaters show up around the same time that Hagrid is taking this trip, and I’m wondering if the Ministry somehow, through Umbridge or through Lucius Malfoy, is not tipping off these Death Eaters to go to the same neck of the woods that Hagrid is.

Laura: Yep, and Umbridge makes it very clear here, in a few minutes later in the chapter, that she knows what Hagrid’s been up to.

Andrew: Oh, right. Yep. There’s your proof.

Micah: Now, is Hagrid truly the best envoy? He’s not the cleverest, and I’m not sure he’s the best negotiator if it came down to it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And maybe that’s why Madame Maxime is there. But I just question Hagrid being the best person for this job.

Andrew: Physically, he’s best suited. They can try to break him in half, but it’s going to be tougher than it is to break a normal human being.

Eric: Yeah, he’s a natural envoy to the giants. It’s like sending anyone other than Remus Lupin to the werewolves. Outsiders are not viewed sympathetically, for good reasons.

Micah: But they seem to have had the most success, outsiders, with the giants. Clearly, Macnair and others were able to convince Golgomath to do what he did.

Eric: Yeah, but the movie version of Macnair is a really tall dude, too. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, but he’s an executioner. He’s not a giant.

Eric: No, yeah. It’s true. It’s definitely… whatever tactic the Death Eaters are employing does seem to work, I would say, considerably better than what Hagrid and Maxime are doing. But I don’t know that Dumbledore could have sent anybody else that would have been better, other than Dumbledore himself. But this is just the situation. It kind of feels like Dumbledore is just so spread so thin, running every aspect of the Order, really.

Micah: I mean, he’s not in the first half of this book, so he could easily go to the giants, so he might as well be.

Andrew: He’s busy, though. That’s why he’s not in the first half of the book.

Micah: Okay.

Andrew: What, do you think he’s sitting around watching TV?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: We’ll learn what he was up to in a future spinoff book, I’m sure, and/or television adaptation. But I think Hagrid actually proves himself as a great candidate to go and speak to the giants here. He does follow Dumbledore’s directions very carefully, and he did have some of the giants convinced.

Micah: But speaking of Dumbledore, is he a bit reckless in his approach? He does end up getting Karkus killed, as well as members of another giant family, once the Death Eaters really start to have some influence on Golgomath. It’s sad, right? Hagrid and Maxime come across this cave of giants who seemingly would have been on their side, and in the end, they end up getting killed. So I wonder if Dumbledore ended up creating more trouble than would have normally happened as a result of all of this.

Laura: I was just wondering – and I feel like this would be very Dumbledore – if the whole motivation behind this mission was to distract the Death Eaters and spread their forces thin. If we sort of with a wink say, “Oh yeah, Hagrid is going to be away for a couple months; don’t worry about what he’s doing,” and it becomes very clear to them what he’s doing, suddenly you have to send a few Death Eaters to follow him, and maybe some folks from the Ministry too. And maybe this was all in an effort to keep all eyes off of Dumbledore, or at least to make it a lot harder to monitor Dumbledore and all of the people who he has connections with.

Eric: Given that giants die from this, I would hope that it’s not so reckless that it’s just a distraction. I think it’s a genuinely… it would be a really good thing if giants did join the good side, or at least refuse to fight for Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah, that would make a lot of sense.

Eric: So I think it’s valuable.

Micah: Absolutely. And I think it also goes back to the fact that the Order as a whole is becoming more and more isolated, given everything that’s going on with the Ministry. So the more folks that they can rally to their cause while all this is happening, while the Ministry is in denial, is important because once the Ministry finally gets on the same page as Dumbledore and the Order, it’s too late.

Eric: So I had to laugh at a lot of these giant names that we get there. A lot of them are… I forget what the literary technique is, but it’s almost onomatopoeia, but it’s not. But the giant named Karkus who was quickly killed, and his lifeless body, also sometimes called a carcass, is discarded to the bottom of a local lake. It’s really funny. Grawp, actually…

Andrew: Karkus, carcass. Fred, dead. I see what you’re saying.

Eric: Get it? But Golgomath is possibly derived from the number Google. We’re all familiar with Google. It’s… one to the 100th power? Ten to the 100th power. It’s a single digit one with 100 zeros afterwards. So this is a huge number, so J.K. Rowling names the biggest giant this biggest number, basically. It’s just fun little linguistic joking that J.K. Rowling is doing here.

Micah: There’s a bit in here about the actual battles between these giants, and I’ve got to imagine that makes a lot of noise when these giants are fighting each other, which makes sense that they’re up in the mountains. Because imagine you’re on vacation; you’re up in the cabin in the mountains of… I did look up; it is supposedly in Russia. But let’s imagine you’re there on vacation; maybe Sarah Palin is just across the way…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and all of a sudden you hear these really loud, thunderous noises. And if you’re a Muggle, you can’t see this, right? So it’s got to be kind of odd.

Andrew: Yeah, you might think it’s a volcano or an earthquake, or some mining shaft just exploded, or… trying to think what else would make a loud noise in nature.

Laura: I do wonder if Muggles can see them, though, because Hagrid does talk about how Muggle bodies have been found after they discover giants, and they just get chalked up to mountaineering accidents.

Andrew: That would suck.

Micah: That would be weird to be eaten by something that you can’t even see.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and that’s why the giants were driven into seclusion in the first place, right? So that… you couldn’t just have giants walking around and maintain secrecy.

Micah: Speaking of Grawp, we don’t learn anything about what happened to Hagrid’s face in this chapter outside of him slapping some dragon meat on it. Hope that wasn’t Norberta, by the way.

Eric: [laughs] It’s not.

Micah: How do you know, though?

Eric: Because we hear about Norberta in the future tense, don’t we? In one of the future books. I think it’s Book 7.

Micah: All right. I’m trusting you on that.

Eric: Yeah, please do. It is a great visual gag, though.

Micah: He’s picking this up from a local market. You don’t know.

Eric: Well, I think it’s a valid question. How did Hagrid come upon this dragon meat? I think that’s a fair question.

Micah: That’s what took him so long to get back.

Eric: [laughs] He had to slay a dragon?

Micah: Yeah, cut it up. Make some steaks. Some go to Grawp. Some go to Fang. Where was Fang, by the way? Just chilling in the hut the whole time?

Eric: I guess.

Micah: Who babysat Fang during this? Dumbledore?

Eric: I mean, it should have been the children. But yeah, it might have been Dumbledore. Might have been…

Micah: That’s what Dumbledore has been doing this whole time.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Taking care of Fang. No, I kind of… obviously Hagrid doesn’t mention Fang on his journey, but I would totally see Hagrid taking Fang with him.

Micah: I don’t know.

Andrew: That’s what you do. You take your dog with you.

Micah: That would be a tasty snack for a giant.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, they keep Fang away. They don’t bring him down to the gift-giving ceremony.

Micah: That was going to be the third gift.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Maybe a really good friend of Hagrid’s pet-sat for a few months. Because clearly, Fang was not in the hut the entire time. And Hagrid just got back.

Andrew: Right. Well, maybe he just was…

Micah: Maybe it was Newt.

Andrew: Maybe he was just chilling in the Forbidden Forest. The dog is trained.

Micah: How about Newt? Newt is still alive.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: Newt has better things to do than watch somebody’s dog.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Unless he’s retired at this point.

Eric: Probably is.

Micah: Yeah, I would assume so.

Andrew: Fang would eat the Nifflers.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: No, he would just play with them a little bit.

Andrew: And then eat them when he got bored.

Micah: So what do we think the Death Eaters said to Golgomath to convince him to kill Karkus and start to really rally a lot of the other giants to the Death Eaters’ cause?

Andrew: Well, I think he would recall what happened during the first wizarding war. “They drove you guys out. How could you want to side with them this time? Stay with us; we’ll take them down. You can live wherever you want.”

Eric: I can also see the Death Eaters using Imperius and using magic on the giants that is a lot more subtle. I can’t see the Death Eaters having the same negotiation skill or style that the good side has. I can see them being a little bit more, I don’t know, deliberate, and because they’re the side of bad, they can give in to the giants’ tendencies for infighting and violence. It’s almost like the work is being done for them when it comes to fighting over the supreme fire and all this other stuff. It’s like the Death Eaters barely need to say anything and the giants are on their side.

Laura: Yeah, I think all they needed to do was find the most violent of the giants and say, “Hey, we would support you being the new Gurg. And you see all those gifts that he’s getting right now? You’re going to get all those things.”

Andrew: [in a mysterious voice] “Fire.” Well, speaking of being the new Gurg, the trio said, “How do you spot the Gurg? How do you know which one is the Gurg?” And Hagrid says, “Easy, it’s the biggest, the ugliest, the laziest.” So is that just a rule amongst the giants? One goes and then the next comes in? It’s kind of insulting. “All right, here’s our new biggest, ugliest, and laziest Gurg.”

Micah: You walk up, you’re like, “Hey, ugly,” and everybody turns around.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Welcome.”

Eric: I think it’s just… this was the result, right? Because all the other giants have to get food for their Gurg, that it’s just by, I guess, over a period of time that whoever is the Gurg becomes the biggest, the fattest, the laziest.

Andrew: Ahh, I see what you’re saying.

Eric: Habitually, you know what I’m saying?

Micah: Yeah, so just because they don’t do anything around camp, everybody provides for them.

Eric: Yeah, exactly. It’s not like those are the qualities that the giants value; it’s that that’s the aftermath of the repercussions of being the Gurg is you…

Andrew: They turn into that figure, right. Sort of like… I’m kind of the Gurg here on MuggleCast.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: People call me the leader, which I don’t love, but I am definitely the biggest, ugliest, and laziest.

Eric: I will contest you on a few of those things, dude.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: Yeah, I’d say you’re in pretty good shape.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I’m jacked, baby.

Micah: You’re more like… you watch Game of Thrones?

Andrew: Sort of.

Micah: You remember Wun Wun?

Andrew: Nope.

Micah: Well, he was the giant that ended up siding with Jon Snow.

Andrew: Did you say Won-Won? That’s Ron from Harry Potter, dude.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: Wun Wun.

Andrew: Wun Wun.

Micah: Close enough, close enough. Yeah.

Andrew: Oh, I see.

Micah: Did you look him up?

Andrew: Yeah, he definitely looks like me. [laughs]

Micah: Well, from a badass standpoint was what I’m trying to say.

Andrew: Got it, yeah. Thank you.

Eric: [laughs] The question that I had about Hagrid returning… we know that the events of the chapter… the meeting is interrupted and Harry can’t tell his story because Umbridge comes. But I initially had a lot of questions about, again, where’s Dumbledore? Wouldn’t Hagrid have reported directly to Dumbledore? There shouldn’t have been an opportunity where the kids can go visit him, and Umbridge can go visit him, and all these people can go… without him speaking to Dumbledore and doing a debrief. But then I remembered – and in this chapter, it is said – Hagrid does not take the normal route home, and there is an air of mystery about it. We know that it’s because he brought his brother back to the Forbidden Forest that the normal route of travel… and he would have been back months ago otherwise. He basically disobeyed Dumbledore’s orders. Hagrid has been up to something sneaky and so that, I guess, essentially is… I’m going to let Dumbledore off the hook. That’s why they haven’t debriefed yet, is because Hagrid took the long way home of his own volition, and that is not the plan.

Micah: Yeah, I would think that Hagrid’s first stop would be to Dumbledore. He even mentions that communication was near impossible because he was being trailed, and so they couldn’t communicate via owl. There’s probably other ways that they could do it, but yeah. But let Hagrid get a good night’s sleep in his own bed before he walks up to the castle and talks with Dumbledore. That’s probably not even a safe place for them to have that conversation. They probably need to do it somewhere in the forest.

Eric: Well, Dumbledore should come to him, though. There has to be a way of signaling… or Aberforth, for all intents and purposes, is a member of the Order even this early; he’s reporting to Dumbledore and everything else. Dumbledore could have said, “Go to the Hog’s Head and let the barman know that you’re there and I will be down in a minute.” They really could have planned a better debrief well before Umbridge’s prying eyes and ears came into play at all.

Micah: What about the Patronus? Don’t they communicate that way?

Eric: They do, later, but I don’t think Hagrid could conjure one.

Micah: But doesn’t he? Well, I don’t know. Maybe I’m misremembering, but don’t they communicate that way in Goblet of Fire?

Eric: I wonder.

Micah: When they find Barty Crouch, Sr.’s body, doesn’t Hagrid send a Patronus to Dumbledore? Or is it the other way around?

Andrew: It may have been the other way around. J.K. Rowling said Hagrid couldn’t produce a Patronus because it’s very difficult spell.

Eric: Yeah, we’re watching them…

Micah: Oh, so he can only receive one?

Andrew: Well, yeah, anybody could receive one.

Micah: That’s not cool.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: In defense of Hagrid.

Eric: We’re watching them struggle to conjure them in Dumbledore’s Army, and these are wizards with two or more years more experience than Hagrid ever got at school. And Hagrid’s wand is snapped in half, too; I mean, we know his umbrella basically works. But I think something about the Patronus Charm, for how it’s lauded and appraised, means that Hagrid can’t do it.

Andrew: Ashley, who’s listening live on Patreon, says, “Maybe Professor Grubbly-Plank puppy-sat Fang.”

Eric: I believe that.

Andrew: Didn’t think about that.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: All right, let’s talk Umbridge.

Andrew: Yeah, so Umbridge arrives.

Micah: She does, unexpectedly. And if you’re Hagrid, at this point, you’ve got to be kind of pissed off, right? This is the fourth person to show up on your doorstep since you just got back home.

Andrew: “Just got back; give me a break.” Yeah, I hate coming back from a trip and people want to talk to me? No, thank you.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Especially for how long he’s been away, and what he went through? I need at least a night to recuperate.

Micah: Exactly. And she does note the fact that there were footsteps – which we talked about earlier – leading up to the cabin, but none going back to the castle.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it was terribly obvious that somebody else was just there. Not just the footprints, but the voices as well. This should have been a moment – I’m actually surprised this didn’t happen – where Umbridge exposes… utters some spell and the Invisibility Cloak comes up. Maybe she does a wind spell to blow cloaks around…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … because she must know that an Invisibility Cloak exists. And this should have been a moment where Umbridge catches the trio and the Invisibility Cloak gets confiscated, because it’s just so clear that somebody else is in that hut.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think she’s a very gifted witch, so I’m not sure that she would have been able to do anything to expose them. All we see her do in this book is be on a power trip, and she just uses her authority to implement punishments and things like that. But I don’t think we ever really see her do anything particularly impressive with her magical abilities.

Andrew: And maybe also not gifted in a way that would make her actually think that somebody was hiding under a cloak or some other form of magical invisibility.

Eric: Right. I mean, it’s tense because she still searches nearly every square inch of the place and comes within a couple inches. Harry even has to suck in whatever gut he has as a 15-year-old so that she doesn’t bump into them.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: But given the evidence, it is pretty definitive that there’s somebody down there. I mean, really, the footprints are the smoking gun, so I’m surprised…. trying to think, if I were Umbridge, would I stick my hand out and run around? Do the unexpected? Because she does seem to be doing a more methodical search, and if they had needed to, the trio under the Invisibility Cloak could walk to the other side of the room when she’s over in one corner.

Andrew: Or just sit there until the people who are hiding revealed themselves. Then she wouldn’t have to do any magic; she’d just have to be stubborn.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: So I was wondering, have there been times where Harry has been caught? And next book, obviously, Draco catches him on the train, and that’s a really tense scene. But then, Eric, you also found a couple areas where Dumbledore is aware that Harry is using the cloak, but I think the first time that a bad guy actually catches Harry is in the next book, right?

Eric: Yeah, unless you count Mrs. Norris, I think Draco would be the first one to catch him. But what Dumbledore is doing, I seem to recall – correct me if I’m wrong, or if you guys remember this, please back me up – but I think Rowling actually said that the reason that it appears as though Dumbledore can see Harry when he’s under the cloak, or Dumbledore becomes aware of Harry’s presence, is because he is nonverbally casting the Homenum Revelio spell that we see a little later on, I think, in Deathly Hallows, and that is indicating to Dumbledore, at least, that there’s a human in the room, and that that spell is penetrating the cloak.

Andrew: Right, right. And when he does know that Harry is under the cloak in Chamber of Secrets, he glances their way. J.K. Rowling doesn’t write that “Dumbledore stared right at Harry; he had been revealed,” but Dumbledore does look that way, and that seems to suggest that the spell Homenum Revelio is alerting him to a human presence in a certain direction, perhaps.

Eric: Yeah, it’s lighting him up.

Micah: At least in the movie in that same scene, Lucius Malfoy reaches out and tries to grasp the Invisibility Cloak…

Andrew: Right.

Micah: … so I wonder, is that more just because he thinks somebody is there, versus knowing that somebody is present? Because it’s almost a similar type of scene to Chamber of Secrets, when Umbridge shows up and tries to catch the trio.

Andrew: Yeah. I don’t think Lucius was doing what Dumbledore was doing. I think, at least in the movie, it was just to create a tense moment. Like, “Oh my God, he’s about to be caught.”

Micah: And I still think that it’s very impressive that Dumbledore can do this with respect to Harry’s Invisibility Cloak, because it is one of the Deathly Hallows. It’s not your average Invisibility Cloak that Dumbledore can detect somebody under or see through, if, in fact, he’s able to do that. And there’s also this point in here about in Book 1, Dumbledore knows that Harry has been visiting the mirror, even though he’s been diligent about wearing the cloak. Dumbledore says, “I have other ways of making myself invisible.”

Andrew: Creepy.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, I’ve always enjoyed that line from Rowling being that it appears in Book 1, because you’re like, “Oh, the wide wizarding world; there’s so many exciting things we’ve yet to discover.” And I’m glad that at least in this book, in Book 5, she introduces the Disillusionment Charm and how that feels, which is another way of making oneself invisible, so I’m glad that that thread gets a little bit of a follow-up.

Andrew: Yeah. So all in all, I’m just… I actually kind of wish that Umbridge caught them in Hagrid’s hut. I think they deserved it for the reasons we’ve brought up throughout the episode. And then, of course, it’s just so obvious that somebody else is there. Cover your footsteps, or sneak out the… I don’t know, something.

Micah: Yeah, I think this also creates a ripple effect for Hagrid and for the trio down the road because it immediately creates a situation where Umbridge doesn’t trust Hagrid, and I think we see further Educational Decrees that are a result of what they are doing right now.

Eric: Yeah, I think so too. And did we want to talk about just how obvious Hagrid’s lies are? [laughs] Because unfortunately, being put on the spot, I think it’s clear to anybody who doubted whether or not Hagrid was telling the truth that it’s clear that he’s definitely not.

Micah: Well, I think the only thing that really could be a legitimate situation is the teacup and the fact that Fang knocked it over. That’s believable, in my opinion. But the talking and the footprints, he can’t really explain away, and the fact that he says that he’s been away for his health…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: As he holds the dragon’s… yeah.

Micah: Maybe that’s believable.

Andrew: I wonder if he had that prepared, or he needed to come up with that on the fly, because he also should have been warned that somebody was back at the school who was going to be cracking down. He can’t really talk with anybody while he’s on the move because that would present a risk, but Dumbledore should have warned him, I think, right before he got there. Or Dumbledore should have been the one rushing down to see Hagrid as soon as he got back.

Eric: Yeah, I agree.

Micah: He’s there; he’s just invisible. He’s watching the whole thing.

Eric: [laughs] Kelly, over on our listening live feed, does remind us that Mad-Eye Moody – or rather, Barty Crouch as Mad-Eye – could see under the cloak as well.

Laura: Oh, yep. I do wonder here… Umbridge turning up so quickly, this makes me think that Filch, somebody who is constantly paying attention to what’s happening at the school, probably saw footprints in the snow and went and roused Umbridge, which would explain why Umbridge got there before, say, Dumbledore did. Because I don’t think Filch would go to Dumbledore.

Andrew: No, that’s… yeah, yeah.

Micah: That’s an interesting point. Yeah, and we know that he’s been working on something very special for his return to Care of Magical Creatures. Hermione is definitely not about it…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and is cautioning him… she’s trying to caution him and to tell him, “Look, you mess up, you’re going to be out of here real quick.”

Andrew: And maybe this is one of the reasons that this scene exists in the first place, so Hermione can become stressed out about Hagrid’s lessons. Because this is the first of a few times where she tries to control Hagrid’s lessons, in fear of him being suspended by Umbridge.

Micah: Absolutely.

Laura: And this is also a really convenient point to drop another clue about Thestrals. Hagrid says he’s been bringing them on for years, and that he thinks he has the only domestic herd in Britain.

Andrew: We get to see them, so to speak, on [takes a deep breath] Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure at Universal Orlando Resort.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Oh my God, does that mean we’ve seen people die?

Andrew: Well, I mean, you see where they’re supposed to be, but you don’t actually see them.

Laura: Ohh, that’s cool.

Eric: The voiceover from Robbie Coltrane is like, “Don’t mind the Thestrals.”

Andrew: Yeah, they’re at the beginning of the ride. And maybe… I don’t know if somebody brought this up in the Patreon Facebook group, or… somebody said, “Wouldn’t it be cool…?” Or maybe I just dreamed this. Wouldn’t it be cool to have a Thestral ride at the Wizarding World Park? And then I was thinking, how could we do that? Because you would want to sit on top of a Thestral, so would it just be a glass Thestral?

Eric: Right.

Andrew: So you’re sitting on something but you can’t see it. But then I was thinking, how could they keep that so clean where it looks invisible? That seems like a great ride idea, in my opinion. You’re actually sitting on something but you can’t see it. That’s magic. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Yes, it is.

Andrew: What’s so funny? That would be.

Micah: Sure, I like the idea. It would be a cool ride, especially when they go out over the Thames.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: In Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Well, it reminds me so much of Flights of Passage, though, in Avatar land, where the beast is breathing underneath your legs. It’s awesome. Awesome experience.

Micah: All right, I think that wraps up this chapter. The trio head back up to the castle and somehow are not caught on their way back to Gryffindor tower.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I don’t know how that’s possible.

Andrew: The cloak, the cloak, the cloak. I mean, these guys are…

Micah: Well, and the Marauder’s Map.

Andrew: Well, I was just going to say, between the cloak and the Marauder’s Map, these guys are invincible. They can get away with anything.

Micah: Yeah. I would think Umbridge would be a little bit better at that than she is, but I assume she went off immediately to report to Fudge, and that’s why they get a free pass back to the Gryffindor comment room.


Top Ten (Seven)


Andrew: This chapter made us wonder: What if Hagrid was lying? What if he actually didn’t go to the giants? What was he really doing? And we thought we would bring back our Top Ten list idea from days gone by, but we wanted to change it to seven because… well, why not? [laughs]

Micah: Seven is a magical number.

Andrew: Oh, that’s the reason. Yeah, thank you. So here are the top seven reasons Hagrid was really missing in action, and thank you to some of our listeners who participated. This first one from Meg Scott: “He took a sabbatical to play flute on the Weird Sisters’ 1995 World Tour.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: He’s like Lizzo.

Eric: Oh, Lizzo plays flute?

Andrew: Yeah, that’s her big thing.

Eric: Oh, wow.

Andrew: His name is Hizzo, though.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Number six: Chris Davis says, “He was out here just lookin’ for America, man.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Number five, Robbie Stillman: “J.K. Rowling was bored writing his Care of Magical Creatures class.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I bet there’s some truth in that one.

Eric: But she wrote Grubbly-Plank’s, though. She still has to write about the class.

Andrew: True. Yeah, but all those weird ways that Hagrid pronounces things, she didn’t want to write all that.

Eric: Oh, right, right.

Laura: Number four: I said that he was out filming a sequel to the Fantastic Beasts series.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Number three, from Alex Kay: “He never left. He was in his hut, hibernating after Madame Maxime broke his heart.” Aww. So he makes up this story in which Madame Maxime and him are on the road together, still clearly totally in love.

Micah: Number two: He heard some [censored] named Dolores was running Hogwarts and wanted none of it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Fair enough. I think that would keep me away, too.

Andrew: Micah wrote that one.

Eric: [laughs] And here’s one that I wrote…

Micah: No, no, you have to go, “And the number one reason Hagrid was really…”

Eric: I know, I know, I know.

Micah: This is great. You’ve got to deliver on this, Eric.

Eric: I usually shy away from being the dirtiest mind in the room. Listeners under 20, cover your ears.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: And the number one reason Hagrid was really MIA: He was climbing Mount Olympe-us.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Wow. Bow-chica-wow-wow.

Micah: Care to elaborate, Eric?

Eric: Nope.

Andrew: Because if giants are loud, then half-giants are probably loud as well, and they need to be away from everybody so nobody can hear them.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: On to the Umbridge Suck count; it currently stands at 40. Plus one for bothering Hagrid as soon as he got back after months away. Give him some time to chill!

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Next one: questioning why footsteps would be leading to Hagrid’s door. He can have friends, all right? Just let him live. It’s okay he has visitors. So what?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: And the third one was she didn’t let Fang, who’s clearly a good boy, lick her face. She wouldn’t accept the kisses.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: I am with Umbridge on that one.

Micah: Yeah, me too.

Andrew: I do not like dogs licking faces. That is…

Eric: You own a dog!

Andrew: So?

Eric: You don’t let Brooklyn lick your face?

Andrew: No, and he doesn’t, thank gosh.

Eric: That’s because he’s small, right?

Andrew: Maybe.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, and we do have some threads to connect, some really fun ones that really throw back to the Buckbeak storyline in Prisoner of Azkaban. We can start with Macnair’s resurgence in this chapter; he was the one who was set to execute Buckbeak in Prisoner of Azkaban, and we learn that he is on the Death Eaters’ giant recruitment force in Order of the Phoenix, and Hagrid recognizes him in the mountains. Then I also thought it was pretty cute that Hagrid was so surprised that Hermione would act like they would ever do anything dangerous in Care of Magical Creatures, given what happens with Buckbeak in Prisoner of Azkaban. He’s very taken aback that she suggests they would do anything dangerous in class.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: It’s very Hagrid. And then also in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hermione is the one who puts together Hagrid’s whole defense with the Ministry regarding Buckbeak, and now she’s vowing to write Hagrid’s lesson plans for him and to do anything that it takes to stop Umbridge from firing him.

Andrew: Poor Hermione doing all this for Hagrid.

Laura: I know.

Andrew: She doesn’t get any appreciation for it.

Laura: This always happens to women, too. It’s like, let’s just…

Andrew: [laughs] Nobody recognizes all y’all do.

Laura: Yep, it’s true.

Micah: And with all this, it makes me want to look up… when we were talking before about Fang. Does Fang take a similar approach to Fudge in…? It would probably be Chamber of Secrets, right? Not Prisoner of Azkaban. Trying to lick his face or do something along those lines?

Laura: Oooh, that’s a good question.

Eric: Yeah, not that I can recall. Maybe it’s all the cats on…? Oh yeah, no, that’s just… the cats are on the plates. I’m like, why is Fang so interested in Dolores?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I think Fang has just been darn lonely all these months.

Andrew: Yeah. Maybe it’s her perfume. You know she’s got some.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Hagrid for risking his life at Dumbledore’s request.

Eric: I gave it to Hermione because she asks Hagrid if he had new information about his mother. Very astute.

Micah: I’ll give it to Madame Maxime for accompanying Hagrid on this journey, creating that international bond between…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, I wasn’t going there, Andrew…

Andrew: Suuure.

Micah: … but if you want me to. And also, quick wand work. She had some spells she cast in this chapter; we didn’t touch on that.

Laura: And I’m giving mine to Fang for not only being a good boy, but also for distracting Umbridge.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: All right, and now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “Who is the ugliest of them all?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Reference to the Gurg.

Eric: I named mine Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19…

[“Eternal Flame” by The Bangles plays]

Andrew: Longest chapter title ever.

Laura: [laughs] Also, “I watch you when you are sleeping.”

Eric: Yeah, just like they do to the giants.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: I think Rowling was on a Bangles kick when she wrote this chapter.

Micah: All right. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “A Giant Waste of Time.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: True. That’s my favorite this week.

Laura: And I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “Tall Tales.”

Andrew: Like he’s lying?

Laura: I think it’s like a bit of a double entendre?

Micah: Double meaning.

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: They met with giants.

Andrew: Right, they’re big.

Laura: And Hagrid is trying to tell lies.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Oh, and the Death Eaters are tailing them.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: So “Hagrid’s Tale/Tail” could refer to the Death Eaters as well.

Andrew: And alliteration, wow. I just love these chapter titles this week. So much good stuff. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in, or if you have a question about Chapter 20, MuggleCast@gmail.com is where you can reach us. You can also send us a voice memo; just please remember to keep it about a minute long and record in a quiet place. Just use the Voice Memo app that’s built into your phone and then email it to that same address. We also have the contact form on our website, MuggleCast.com; you can just click “Contact” at the top.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: Where does Hagrid have a disagreement with a vampire? The correct answer was, of course, a pub in Minsk, which is in Belarus. The correct answers were submitted by Lacey, Tara, Meg Scott, Sara, CountRavioli, Caleb, Nicki, Jason, HallowWolf, Stacey, MichaelNotEric, and Auralie. Congratulations to everyone who submitted. Next week’s question: Who does Neville Longbottom say he saw die that allows him to see the Thestrals?

Andrew: All right. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. We would love your support over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you enjoy what we do, we’re glad to hear that, and it’s because of support from listeners like you, so just head to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, pledge today, and you will get instant access to years of benefits, including many installments of bonus MuggleCast. And if you pledge at that Dumbledore’s Army level or higher, you will be eligible for this year’s physical gift. I think that does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #455

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #455, How To Hogwarts (OOTP 19, The Lion & The Serpent)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s show we are discussing Chapter 19 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Lion and the Serpent,” and we also have a debate tied to it. I think we might be annoying some of our listeners if we actually believe these stances Micah gave us.

Micah: [laughs] Why would you say that?

Andrew: Because you are making you and I say some terrible things, and I’m worried.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Why, because we’re arguing on the right side of the law?

Andrew and Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Okay, well, we’ll talk about that later in today’s episode. We also have some great feedback and a little bit of news, so let’s start with that. I didn’t realize this; The Tales of Beedle the Bard has never had an audiobook, but that changes later this month because on March 31, an “all-star,” as Eric wrote, cast of Harry Potter cast members are getting together to record this. It makes a lot of sense that they’re involving a lot of actors and actresses, because The Tales of Beedle the Bard, of course, is made up of multiple stories by J.K. Rowling. This was released in what, 2008, I want to say?

Eric: Something like that, yeah.

Andrew: So get this: Sally Mortemore… well, nobody knows her. Madam Pince, she’s going to intro the book; Noma Dumezweni, who played Hermione in Cursed Child, she’s going to read “The Tale of the Three Brothers”; Evanna Lynch is going to read “The Fountain of Fair Fortune”; Bonnie Wright is going to read “Babbity Rabbity and her Cackling Stump”; Jason Isaacs is going to read “The Warlock’s Hairy Heart”; and Warwick Davis reads “The Wizard and the Hopping Pot.” And then, of course, the book has those introductions from Dumbledore, which are so great, and Jude Law is going to narrate those. So big cast of people getting together to record this. Sounds like a great idea.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I’m really getting into audiobooks lately, a little bit even more than I have in the past, and audiobooks that have multiple narrators are really a cool thing also. It just feels like a special multimedia production of some sort, or theatrical kind of a thing.

Andrew: Keeps it fresh too, I imagine, while you’re reading.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. And there is a degree of cleverness as well behind the different people they’ve chosen for each of these things. So for instance, Noma Dumezweni… Hermione in the movie reads “The Tale of the Three Brothers”; Emma Watson does.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: And then so to have another Hermione, to have Cursed Child‘s original cast member Hermione read it in this audiobook, is a clever either nod, or it just makes sense that as Dumbledore gifts that book to Hermione, that she would be reading that chapter.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s very clever.

Micah: I love how they got the librarian to intro the book.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Very appropriate.

Eric: And I’m struggling to remember the scene that she was in, that Madam Pince was in. I can’t… I think…

Andrew: It was the scene where she goes, “Shh!”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: She looks like the witch who was at the high table in the Great Hall in a couple scenes that I always assumed was Professor Sinistra.

Andrew: Oh, I think I did too.

Eric: Yeah, you just always kind of assume because the librarian wouldn’t necessarily get a seat at the high table, right?

Andrew: Right. No offense to any librarians out there.

Eric: No, no, but you don’t see Filch sitting up there either.

Micah: Yeah, because I’m sure there are no librarians who listen to this show.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There are… I actually know three librarians who listen to the show.

Micah: That’s my point. Well, isn’t there a moment in the Restricted Section, or am I thinking of Sorcerer’s Stone?

Eric: Sorcerer’s Stone.

Andrew: Yes, that’s kind of what I was referring to. You wrote down, Eric, Chamber of Secrets, but in this article it just says Harry Potter film series, so I don’t know. Maybe she’s not in Chamber of Secrets at all.

Eric: Yeah. Huh.

Micah: I knew I saw her in the Battle for Hogwarts.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Maybe they amended the article, because I definitely remember it saying Chamber of Secrets.

Micah: Her and Sean Biggerstaff, right? Flying by in that one very quick moment.

Eric: Oh, God.

Andrew: Totally. And Winky was there too.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Even though she never appeared in Goblet of Fire, they… yeah.

Andrew: So we haven’t done this in a while, MuggleCast TBT. We post these on social media about every week, and now that we are approaching our 15th anniversary, we want to include more of these on each episode of MuggleCast. I loved this one that we posted earlier this week; thanks to our social media manager Jule for posting this. We were in London, actually for the release of The Tales of Beedle the Bard, so appropriate that this clip was posted this week. And we are discussing if J.K. Rowling could write any other books beyond Harry Potter. Listen to this.

[TBT clip starts]

Andrew: Well, anything she does now is going to be… it’s going to get huge hype around it, because how could it not? And imagine starting another suspense novel or whatever and starting this whole trilogy all over again. It won’t be as fun as Harry Potter, but…

Elysa: Didn’t she say, though, that if she published anything else outside of Harry Potter, she was considering using a pseudonym?

Andrew: Oh, a what?

Elysa: A pseudonym? Like, changing her name?

Andrew: Oh, to like, Joanne Rowling? Wasn’t she just joking, though?

Elysa: I mean, I couldn’t tell.

Jamie: It’ll get leaked as well. We’re going to find out what it is.

Elysa: Yeah, no. I mean, we definitely would.

Andrew: That’d be really hard to keep it a secret.

[TBT clip ends]

Andrew: That’s kind of crazy that I spoke about that, because that’s exactly what happened. She published under a pseudonym, and it got leaked. [laughs]

Eric: And Andrew, you predicted that it would be also in the same genre as Harry Potter, suspense/mystery.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Well, she writes what she knows. Also, it sounded like I didn’t know what a pseudonym was.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Elysa had to give me a definition, or maybe I just couldn’t hear her. I don’t know, but that’s a little embarrassing.

Laura: Well, you guys were live, right? So yeah, it happens.

Andrew: It could be hard to hear each other.

Laura: I was going to say, wow, my voice has changed so much since then.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: No, Laura, that wasn’t you.

Laura: Who’s that British guy?

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] That was Jamie. And the woman was Elysa, who was on the show a while ago. Laura’s BFF.

Eric: But Jamie is saying it would leak and it would be hard to keep under wraps. That’s exactly what happened.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: Very cool.

Andrew: So yeah, we’ll include more of those on the show as we approach our 15th anniversary.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: Moving over to Muggle Mail now; we have this voice memo from Jacob.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi, MuggleCast. This is Jacob from Virginia. I have really enjoyed the last few episodes of your podcast as we’ve been going through these chapters of Order of the Phoenix because I had forgotten how much I love these chapters, but also how much of an influence that they made on my own life. You brought up a few weeks ago if anybody had a teacher in high school that they just really didn’t enjoy or felt like wasn’t very qualified for their job, and that is absolutely how my classmates and I felt about our chorus teacher. We loved singing in choir, and we had a very young, new teacher who was really ineffective and didn’t quite have the skills to do it, and so in that role, I actually started an afterschool group and would often during class take my classmates to the band room, which was empty at the time, and I got to practice teaching for a little bit. And now I am a high school choir director and I love everything about it, but I felt very much like Harry in a role, that if we were going to do what we wanted to do, we would have to have some initiative from the student side. So thank you for doing what you all do, and keep it up.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: That’s awesome, Jacob. Thank you so much for sharing.

Laura: Yeah, that’s really cool.

Eric: I wonder if the original teacher has gotten better. I know some teachers they can hire pretty young, right out of school, and it’s possible that there were some growing pains there. But I wonder if Jacob is now teaching at the same school, either alongside the choir director, or whether they’re fired and no longer there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Let me show you how it’s done.”

Eric: I’d love, yeah, a follow-up. But it’s really lovely to hear this as a real world example of kids taking the effort.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, now we have this email from Heather:

“I wanted to send in a little note in regards to your discussion a few episodes ago about the Hog’s Head. I happened to come across the word ‘hogshead’ in the Official Scrabble Players dictionary, just by chance, because it was at the top of a page. It is defined as a ‘large cask.’ I found this so interesting, and looking a little further into it, Wikipedia defines it as: ‘a large cask of liquid (or, less often, of a food commodity). More specifically, it refers to a specified volume, measured in either imperial or US customary measures, primarily applied to alcoholic beverages, such as wine, ale, or cider.’ So it seems that the name of the pub was very purposely chosen! I thought you might find this interesting, so wanted to share.”

Laura: That’s really cool.

Andrew: I did not realize that was a real word, yeah.

Eric: It’s kind of breaking my brain a little bit.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: That something in the wizarding world is real?

Eric: Yeah, well, that hogshead is a word; hogshead, if you put a space in it, it’s the Hog’s Head. That’s the name of the pub. But there’s also this weird connection: hogshead you store wine in, but there’s all these hog things – Hogwarts, Hogsmeade – and so did J.K. Rowling start with hogshead that she changed into Hog’s Head, and was like, “Let’s keep with this hogs theme. Going to put it in Hogsmeade next to Hogwarts; that’s the name of the school”? Because it’s just so many hogs, I guess, around.

Andrew: So many hogs. I think what this means is that we could call the show Hogshead, and we couldn’t get sued by Warner Bros. because this was a word that existed outside of the wizarding world.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: HogsheadCast.

Andrew: We found something. HogsheadCast.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: HoggyCast.

Andrew: HogsCast.

Laura: Love it.

Andrew: HogsCast was cool.

Micah: This, to me, is an example of J.K. Rowling being very intentional about name origins. I know back in the day we used to have the name origins section on MuggleNet, and it was amazing just diving into all the little details of characters and places and spells, and this is another one of those examples where there’s more meaning beneath the surface.

Laura: Agreed. We have another piece of feedback from Rebecca in Reading, UK. Rebecca says,

“I was just listening to Episode 454 where you discuss Chapter 18 of Order of the Phoenix. You mention that Dumbledore’s comment about finding a room full of chamberpots was probably a deliberate clue to point Harry towards the Room of Requirement. However, I don’t think Dumbledore ever knew about the Room of Requirement. In Deathly Hallows, when Harry finally realizes where the diadem is hidden, he thinks: ‘Tom Riddle, who confided in no one and operated alone, might have been arrogant enough to assume that he, and only he, had penetrated the deepest mysteries of Hogwarts Castle. Of course, Dumbledore and Flitwick, those model pupils, had never set foot in that particular place, but he, Harry, had strayed off the path in his time at school – here at last was a secret he and Voldemort knew, that Dumbledore had never discovered.‘ I thought this was a really important moment for Harry, and another illustration of the parallels between him and Riddle. But do you think that Harry was just naive to assume that Dumbledore didn’t know about the Room of Requirement? Or is it specifically the room where everything is hidden that Dumbledore didn’t know about? And if Dumbledore did know, why didn’t he think to check there for Horcruxes?”

Laura: Ooh, so many good questions here.

Andrew: Yeah. And to clarify, I think Rebecca is specifically asking about that room that we see in Deathly Hallows, not the Room of Requirement on a whole, because as we discussed previously, Dumbledore is aware of the room; he says so in Goblet of Fire. He at least accidentally came across it in that book. To answer Rebecca’s question, it sounds like he wasn’t aware of that specific version of the Room of Requirement.

Eric: Right, because to her question, why didn’t he think to check there for Horcruxes?

Andrew: Right, he travels to a faraway cave, but not the Room of Requirement?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I mean, if he had any idea that there was a Horcrux in there, he would have just went there. I mean, he would have preferred going there instead of a cave far away.

Micah: Especially given the fact that Dumbledore feels very strongly that Horcruxes would be tied in some way to the founders, and what better place to hide a Horcrux than inside of Hogwarts?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Now, does that quote mean that Dumbledore and Flitwick went to school together?

Eric: That’s a weird thing that J.K. Rowling wrote.

Micah: It’s a weird pairing, right? I mean…

Eric: Yeah, it’s an odd thing to read from Harry’s perspective.

Micah: I wonder, is there some sort of book or scroll that gets passed down from one headmaster to the next that details out the secrets of Hogwarts? Or are you kind of on your own as a headmaster to figure it out?

Eric: Huh. It’s a good question.

Andrew: Well, you can consult the portraits, and I guess they would be a little helpful.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But yeah, I don’t know. You would think there’s a book. “How to Hogwarts.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: By the founders.

Laura: Let’s reach out to J.K. Rowling on Twitter and see if she’ll put this together.

Andrew: No, she won’t. If she’s not doing the encyclopedia, she’s not doing that. Unless she does a founders series. Yeah, interesting perspective. Thank you, Rebecca.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “The Lion and the Serpent.” And as always, we will start with our seven-word summary. Eric, ready when you are.

Eric: All right. I’m feeling frisky. I’m going to start with the word… The…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Micah: … Quidditch…

Andrew: … match…

Laura: … features…

Andrew: … Draco…

Micah: … falling…

Eric: … out.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: When I chose “features,” I was thinking “bullying from Slytherin.”

Andrew: Oh.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I mentioned… I said falling out because Draco in this chapter falls way out of my favor as a character. And furthermore, I’ve been considering maybe going into some post-canon Harry/Draco fanfic; I was like, “This seems cool. It’s time for me to visit some of those many Harry Potter fans who think that would be a realistic relationship.” But after reading this chapter, I’m thinking that no Harry Draco romance fic can exist if the author of each said fic allows this chapter to be canon and included, because Draco crosses the line in this chapter.

Micah: Draco is 15 years old, though. Let’s also remember that.

Andrew: Yeah, and he does redeem himself in Cursed Child, I feel.

Eric: Wait, when?

Andrew: Well, Harry and Draco have a cordial relationship in the play.

Eric: It’s just the insults, man. It’s like…

Andrew: I know they’re bad, but yeah, I agree with Micah. He is a kid, so you have to forgive him a little bit.

Eric: Okay, I’m looking forward to our debate.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And highly influenced by his father.

Andrew: And actually, I’ll give this real world example – and I don’t have the answer to this, so you guys can tell me – I was bullied by a kid in elementary school. He choked me at one point in elementary school.

Eric: What?!

Andrew: Yeah, his name was also Andrew. A worse Andrew, obviously.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: But now I cracked up years later when he sends me a Facebook friend request. I’m like, “Uh, Dude, do you remember when you choked me at school? Am I supposed to forget that?” [laughs] So it’s like, these people who may have been bullies in their early years, you have to make a choice. Do you forgive these people or not? And do you realize that they are different people now?

Laura: Yeah. I definitely had a bully when I was in middle school, and at the time it was really easy to hate her, but now, as an adult looking back… I met her mother, and I’ve realized now… I’m like, “Oh, that’s why she was the way that she was, because her mom was a bully too.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So actually, in retrospect, it wasn’t her fault.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, we can talk about this more.

Eric: Yeah, sure. No, I find it interesting… it’s definitely appropriate to start the chapter off mentioning bullying overtones.

Micah: Absolutely.

Eric: I denied my bullies’ Facebook friend requests.

Andrew: Did you? [laughs]

Eric: But there were peripheral bullies that I have accepted.

Micah: Don’t validate the bully, yeah, exactly.

[Andrew laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: But yeah, so going off of a successful first Dumbledore’s Army meeting in the last chapter, “Dumbledore’s Army,” we actually see there’s a little passage of time between the chapters, and they’ve now had three successful Dumbledore’s Army meetings, and in fact, the students are getting so good that Neville has now disarmed Hermione. That’s super impressive, right?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s nice to see the progress.

Eric: It really goes to show as well, towards… back to Jacob’s voice memo, too, when kids are running the show, or when you’re taking it upon yourself to learn, you’re going to automatically be more engaged in the material and a little bit more inspired, I think. Dumbledore’s Army is really, we’re finding, a complete antidote to what’s going on at school, and it’s really helping these people learn defense. Other shout-outs to best improved: Colin Creevey has mastered the Impediment Jinx, and Parvati Patil casts a mean Reducto, so that’s pretty cool.

Andrew: Did we discuss this on last week’s episode? The listener that pointed out that Harry being a teacher here, he’s getting in that teacher fill that he may have wanted post-Harry Potter, we speculated that he may have wanted post-Harry Potter? And here are some good examples of Harry being able to successfully teach his fellow students. So yeah, I can see why maybe he didn’t feel the urge to go back to Hogwarts to teach, because he already did it.

Eric: [laughs] But yeah, I think that would have been a natural thing for him as well, a natural evolution. He could have really made it work.

Micah: Yeah, he’s the best Defense Against the Dark Arts professor they’ve had since Lupin.

Andrew: Yeah, and he returns the following year.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Once the curse is lifted, yeah. But it’s also an example of the saying that all the best stuff comes out of struggle. It’s an example that… they’ve created Dumbledore’s Army because of the way Umbridge was behaving, and similarly, Hermione develops a way for them all to know when the next meeting of the DA is going to be. And this is actually really super cool; they’re having to, I guess, move around everybody else’s practices, everybody’s Quidditch training schedules, because there are three Houses represented in Dumbledore’s Army – Quidditch, of course, being a huge part of this chapter later. But Hermione comes up with this, as we all know, really neat idea to use a fake Galleon, and a Galleon which around the edges normally has a serial number on it; instead of being just some arbitrary serial number, you will change the Galleon. Harry has the master one; he has the one Galleon to rule them all, and he changes the dates – it doesn’t say how – around the edges, but then everybody else will see those numbers change, and it reflects the date and time of their next appointment. This is one of the coolest bits of magic that we see, I think, definitely in this book. But not only that, but it’s immediately praised by somebody else; Terry Boot, who I believe is a Ravenclaw, says, “That’s NEWT level magic,” and he’s really super impressed.

Andrew: Well, and weirdly, Hermione is immediately insecure about it; she thinks that people don’t actually want this, but they can’t believe that she came up with this at such a young age.

Micah: And not only that, she’s borrowing the idea from Voldemort, which makes it that much better at the end of the day. It’s their version of the Dark Mark. Little bit less permanent, right? A coin versus a tattoo of sorts.

Andrew: And you also feel J.K. Rowling really wanted us to feel bad for Ron in this chapter. Not only is he bullied horribly later in the chapter, but he brings up, I think twice, just how poor he is. He’s like, “Oh, I won’t confuse this with other Galleons, because I don’t have any other Galleons.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “What is a Galleon?” And we’re just like, “Oh, that’s really sad.” Oh, and then the other moment was Ron getting excited that Hermione brought money to the meeting.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Woo, is this for me? Are we betting now who can defeat who?”

Micah: It’s a little odd because you have Ginny there as well; you have Fred and George there, and they don’t seem to be as hung up on the money aspect as Ron is.

Andrew: Is it because he gets bullied by Draco? Not just in this chapter, obviously, but earlier in the series. He’s just more insecure.

Laura: I think it boils down to a lot of Ron’s insecurities as… he’s the youngest Weasley brother. We know from Deathly Hallows that he has that insecurity about being a son of a mother who wanted a daughter. And I think that he really just questions his place in his family, in Hogwarts, in society, as a result of all of those insecurities, and I think that has a tendency to manifest itself in this, I mean, I guess social insecurity when it comes to money, right? He doesn’t… he’s really struggling to find his identity and find out what makes Ron Ron, and we see that in this chapter because he’s like, “Oh, well, I’m crap at Quidditch as well, so what do I have?”

Eric: Yeah, and if you go back to the Mirror of Erised in Book 1, it’s just really clever how well J.K. Rowling set up each of the trio and what their insecurities would be. But he sees himself being the best, and that’s just who he would be: “Oh, I’m Quidditch captain. I’m Head Boy.” This, that, the other thing. Ron desperately wants acclaim and glory, but I think there’s really a deep insecurity there.

Micah: It’s funny that you said the trio, because that made me wonder, have we ever thought about what Hermione would see in the mirror?

Eric: Oh, you’re right. She doesn’t actually get a look in it, does she? What would she see?

Micah: Lots of books.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Herself as Minister, maybe.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But before we jump into the nastiness of this chapter, I thought it was important to just call out how the chapter opens with Harry, because he’s feeling really good about what’s going on, obviously the success of Dumbledore’s Army. But the quote from the book is that he felt “as though he were carrying some kind of talisman inside his chest over the following two weeks,” and I thought that that was an interesting contrast to the actual bit of Voldemort’s soul he’s carrying around inside of him, so pretty intentional on the part of J.K. Rowling to throw this out there.

Eric: Yeah, definitely. And I’ve felt this before, too, when you’re openly defying authority, or not even openly, but when you know that you yourself are solving one of your own problems, there’s…

Micah: I love how you corrected yourself, Eric, because Andrew and I were going to use that in our argument later, the fact that you just said that Harry is in defiance of authority.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, but whenever you… as teenagers, I think a lot of us have challenged authority in the past, and if you succeed, you can’t help but feel like you’ve triumphed over the great snake or something, which reminds me of Greek mythology, which actually brings up… so Hermione – getting back to the coins real quickly – what she uses is called the Protean Charm, and this was last week’s Quizzitch answer as well. But I, because I love audiobooks so much, was just reading The Odyssey, and Proteus, for whom I’m assuming the Protean Charm is named, was the oldest son of Poseidon, who basically could tell the future. And Odysseus actually captures him to find out what his future is, but in order to get his prophecy, you need to capture him, and once you grab him, he changes his shape and changes his form a dozen times into a shark and a bear and all this stuff to basically evade capture and having to tell you your future. So the Protean Charm… Proteus could change his shape a lot, and so these coins will change indefinitely to whatever Harry sets them to. I thought it was a real cool reference to old mythology.

Micah: That is very cool.

Andrew: Yeah, good catch.

Eric: But speaking of change, we’re changing gears a little bit here to the Quidditch game and the Quidditch match that’s coming up. One of the best examples, I think, not only of change and skill at magic, comes from another DA member, Luna, who has designed a giant lion hat. We all remember this from this book as sticking out; it’s one of the top moments, the coolest things I think Luna has ever done. She really shows her support for Harry, Ron, Hermione, the Gryffindors, by breaking House minds as well in creating this.

Andrew: Included in the movie, thank goodness. But I don’t think Evanna Lynch made this one, right?

Eric: Right.

Andrew: She made the earrings for the movie, but I don’t think she made the hat. That’s a little more advanced.

Micah: She probably had some level of input on the hat as well.

Andrew: [laughs] Maybe.

Micah: Just knowing her and her passion for Luna and for the series.

Andrew: It’s only a matter of time before they start mass manufacturing that hat for purchase at Hot Topic or something.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, that’s a good… Google that and see if there’s a replica anywhere that you can purchase.

Andrew: I don’t think there is.

Eric: I just remember seeing one… there was a fan who had made one at Lumos. Andrew, do you remember?

Andrew: I do remember that, yes.

Eric: There’s a picture of us, and it’s really, really amazing.

Andrew: Yeah. Imagine bringing that on a plane.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “What are you doing?” “Going to a Harry Potter conference.”

Laura: Especially if it roars.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But yes, this is the ultimate representation of House unity and different Houses coming together. I think Luna is the one who really gets things going, and Dumbledore’s Army definitely helps in all this, right? I think it’s fair to say that for the most part, the other Houses would be aligned against Slytherin, no matter what. I feel like if Hufflepuff was playing Slytherin, or Ravenclaw was playing Slytherin, then the other Houses would want to see Slytherin defeated. But just Luna in this particular chapter, it is really cool to see her with this hat. The fact that she says that she wanted to put a snake in its mouth, but she didn’t have the time to do so.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: It just adds to it, in my opinion.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Yeah, it’s really good support from Luna, and it’s useful because in this chapter, the Slytherins have really upped their game of intimidation, of really just antics that should not be tolerated. But under their Head of House, under Severus Snape – and actually, Harry mentions, too, McGonagall is letting them off homework so that they can do more practice – but really, everyone wants to see this fight happen, but the teachers are becoming lax because there’s all this taunting.

Micah: So this begs the question, though, is it just bad sportsmanship? Is it bullying? Is it just, hey, you have four groups that you are responsible for setting up every single year. You’ve segmented them, you’ve made them like this, and it’s a sporting match; of course there’s going to be different things said to different people, and there’s going to be a little bit of antagonizing the other team. Think about it; I’m sure we’ve all been to a sporting event, right?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Some more intense than others. Even at school, right? We’ve probably been to something similar to this. You don’t think that the other team – the visiting team, let’s say – is open to being antagonized? Now, there’s obviously a line, but isn’t it all just in good fun?

Andrew: [laughs] No.

Eric: Well, to some extent, different people… [laughs] I think, isn’t it Draco imitating Ron dropping the Quaffle every time he sees him? We know that Ron is particularly susceptible. Harry actually has a wonderful retort about, what is it, Montague? “If Montague tries to throw next to me, I’d be more worried”? Harry, at least, has dealt with this kind of criticism before, the “Potter stinks” badges being the most recent ones that come to mind, but Ron and other members are less equipped to deal with it, and we just see it have such a negative effect on Ron throughout this chapter.

Andrew: And Draco isn’t doing this just for good fun. He’s doing this because he genuinely hates Ron. Yes, I think a line has been crossed, because I think this line in particular from the song, “Weasley was born in a bin”; he’s talking about the Weasley family being poor, and that’s vicious.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. By the time we get to the song, which… it really comes to a head, everything that Draco, I guess, at the forefront has been planning. To answer your question, Micah, it’s less about poor sportsmanship, and it is active bullying. I think it crosses a threshold pretty quickly.

Laura: I agree. I think that one-off instances like, for example, Draco taunting Ron in the corridors, pretending to drop a Quaffle, I think that’s one thing, but when we get into this coordinated effort to throw Ron off in the middle of a match, that’s just straight up a master level of coordinated bullying. And we’ll talk about this in connecting the threads, but I’m actually not shocked that this happens based on some of the things that happen in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Eric: [laughs] It was foretold, Laura.

Laura: Yes, it was.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: By Trelawney? Or by us?

Eric: We just should have checked the corresponding chapter before getting into this chapter, you guys, because there’s clear reference. [laughs]

Micah: I agree.

Andrew: What bothers me most about this is that the teachers and Madam Hooch are seemingly okay with this. So maybe they do agree with you, Micah; it’s all in good fun, but I think it does cross that line.

Eric: Well, that really raises the question, too: How did Snape downplay this attack on Alicia Spinnet? Because Miles Bletchley… she had to go to the hospital wing with that, and Snape either accompanied her to the hospital wing or he later told teachers in the staffroom that it was an accident, or he really just severely downplayed the part that his own House had to do with these attacks. It’s different if you have a verbal attack; you can say “Sticks and stones can break my bones,” but when you’re actually jinxing each other in the hallways, it’s gone way too far, and that’s how you know you’re part of a toxic culture.

Micah: I agree. I think that the line is crossed by Slytherin in this chapter, and the fact that Snape doesn’t do anything to try and rectify it makes him culpable. But I also think the rest of the staff, to the point Andrew made, are culpable as well, because they have the ability to step in and do something about it – the High Inquisitor has the ability to step in and do something about it – but they refuse to. They let it go on, and they let it get to a level. We know Ron is already nervous despite anything else, right? That’s just who he is, and he’s going to feel really, really nervous about taking on his first Quidditch match. And on top of that, it’s against Slytherin. We know they’re making fun of him; he’s got half the stands chanting things at him. I think there’s a line that the teachers need to step in and do something about it, and they don’t.

Eric: Here’s the question that I have, that I just thought of: Hermione even comes up to Harry and says, “Don’t let him see what’s on the badges,” because we haven’t quite made them out yet, and she knows that Ron’s weakness is his fortitude, is his self-image. Harry knows it. Hermione knows it. How did Slytherin learn it? What told Draco Malfoy, for instance, that if he were to get all the Slytherins together and write lyrics to a song and a chant that insult Weasley, that it would have such the desired effect that they want? Who told the Slytherins that Ron’s self-consciousness gets the better of him at Quidditch?

Andrew: I think they just know. They just know Ron is just that type of person. This hasn’t been a big secret. I mean, sometimes you can just tell by… remember, they’ve been in the same school for five years now, and you get that sense, and there’s been a lot of taunting before by Draco.

Eric: So it’s kind of like blood in the water?

Micah: And I’m sure word spread about his practicing and how bad he was during practice.

Laura: Yeah. Well, especially because Draco and Pansy Parkinson and all of these other Slytherins came to that first Gryffindor practice.

Eric: Oh, that’s right.

Andrew: Which should not have been allowed.

Laura: And they were taunting him there, yeah.

Eric: Okay. So they saw that their taunts had an effect, and then immediately were emboldened to do more of it.

Micah: But here’s my question, though: Draco, right? Draco sucks at Quidditch. He is not good at all. Yet he is piling on Ron, who’s in his first game, by the way, right? This is the first time he’s playing. How many years has Draco been playing? How many Snitches has he caught?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: He just shadows Harry. He just shadows him! He’s a terrible Quidditch player! Throw some shit back in his face.

Andrew: But he’s got confidence.

Eric: Is that bullying, Micah? Or is that just poor sportsmanship?

Micah: Well, that’s going to be my next question, though, is if this was reversed, if somebody on Slytherin was being treated this way, how would we feel? We’d be okay with it.

Andrew: We probably would be, but that’s okay. We can be biased.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Well, it’s not okay to insult someone’s class and blood status, and there are just things you can’t do. But you’ve got to kind of admire the brilliance or the harmony of it all in what Draco has accomplished in this chapter. Now, what happens after the match aside, the actual coordination of an entire, I want to say, Slytherin army… but all the Slytherins coming together, singing the song perfectly, achieving the desired result; it’s so insidious, but it strikes me as being something that would in the real world happen at a sporting event.

Micah: Agreed. Yeah, even high school sports, middle school sports… is it this extreme? Probably not, but I’m sure if you were to go, you would see signs. You would see parents yelling things. I don’t know if there’s a coordinated song against one of the opposing team players, but I’m sure it’s happened.

Eric: [laughs] Well, the pep band is meant to do the opposite, right? It’s meant to pep people up and be excited for sports. This is just…

Andrew: And drown out the taunts, maybe.

Eric: Yeah, what the Slytherins are doing is like an anti-pep band, basically. So moving on just a little bit, here are the actual lyrics of the Slytherin song, which I think it’s clever how J.K. Rowling writes it, because there’ll be two paragraphs of whatever Harry is doing, whatever’s happening at Quidditch, and then there will be two lines of the song in between the thing. It’s real cool. But it’s,

“Weasley cannot save a thing
He cannot block a single ring
That’s why Slytherins all sing
Weasley is our king

Weasley was born in a bin
He always lets the Quaffle in
Weasley will make sure we win
Weasley is our king”

Micah: Now, if you take out the “Weasley was born in a bin,” how bad is that song?

Eric: It’s a lot more innocuous.

Andrew: But still, I just don’t like this idea of students taunting other students together. Maybe if it was just Draco, or maybe him and a couple of others. But the way it’s written, it sounds like half the stadium is singing this thing.

Laura: I mean, have y’all ever seen a football match out of the UK?

Micah: Yeah.

Laura: This kind of thing is super common in those.

Eric: Really?

Andrew: Do you mean soccer? Or football football? American football?

Laura: Soccer.

Andrew: Okay, soccer. Got it.

Laura: Soccer to the Americans; football to everyone else.

Andrew: Got it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: It’s not uncommon for the fans of a team to come up with a song and goad the other team with it, so I wouldn’t be surprised if this was also common in Quidditch and if these students were just mirroring the behavior that they see in professional athletics.

Andrew: That’s true, but I still think the teachers should have stepped in. They know this is harmful to Ron.

Laura: Oh, I agree. We could have a whole bonus MuggleCast – probably more than one bonus MuggleCast – about all of the things that happen at Hogwarts that are just very questionable and wrong.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s an emotional nightmare.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I like this idea of taking out that one sentence, Micah. I don’t know what you replace it with; like, “Ron has no…”

Andrew: Who is going to take out that sentence and replace it? They’re trying to hurt them.

Eric: But that is the offending sentence, though. That’s the offending line.

Andrew: Yes, but this is what happened.

Eric: Other than that, you just get a cool, twisted… it subverts expectations. When Harry first sees the badge, “Weasley Is Our King,” he’s like, “What is this nonsense?” Like, “Oh no, what are they going to do now?” Because you wouldn’t normally see your enemy pledging, “Hail the king. Hail the king. Weasley is our king.” It’s such an interesting backwards take on… but then when you get into the lyrics and listen to why, you’re like, “Oh, they’re saying it ironically.” So the match ends; Harry, at least, is able to save Gryffindor as a whole, or so he thinks for now, by catching the Snitch basically out of Draco’s fingers. They’re both diving for it. And that’s the other thing about Draco being a bad Quidditch player, like you were saying. He’s always just… it’s always just neck and neck with Harry, and he usually is being reactive where Harry is proactive.

Micah: Right. Harry is looking for the Snitch; Draco is just looking at Harry, yeah. I mean, if you’re still going to write that fanfic, there’s something there, Eric.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: But before we go into the fight, just very quickly: Couldn’t they have given Ron something to block out the sound? Ron doesn’t need his ears to be able to play Quidditch; he just needs to see what’s going on.

Andrew: I think you do. And let’s pretend that he actually gets to mute everything that’s happening around him; he’s going to want to know what’s happening around him. He’s going to want to hear because he’s going to be worried that it’s going to get worse or something. That would just be a distraction. And who wants to be deaf during a match like this, when you’re playing?

Eric: Yeah. I think the perfect solution was either to mute Ron, or cover Ron’s ears, or we just learned the Silencio charm. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, why didn’t…? Or Hermione could have done what she did in, what, Book 1, and go burn some cloaks and set the place on fire…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … and then that would have stopped them from singing.

Eric: Yeah, just a little…

Andrew: Where was Hermione during all this?

Eric: What’s a little arson between enemies?

Andrew: Yeah, she’s done it before. It works.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You know what? You’ve got three Houses against one here. Come up with something. Sing something, anything. It doesn’t matter what it is; you would drown out Slytherin easily.

Eric: That’s true. That’s true. But it just speaks to the cleverness, right? How sudden it is that nobody can think of something to do or what to do in the moment. Harry’s only recourse is to catch the Snitch fast, and so he does. But Crabbe shoots a Bludger at him, hits him in the small of the back. Have you guys…? The small of the back is where all the nerves meet, and…

Micah: That hurts like a you-know-what if you ever get hit there.

Eric: Have you ever been injured there, Micah?

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I’ve also gotten kicked during karate, like right in the kidneys…

Laura: Oof.

Micah: … and you have to gasp for air. But yeah, if you ever get hit in the small of the back…

Andrew: You did karate? I didn’t know that.

Micah: Yeah, man. Watch out.

Eric: Watch out. [laughs]

Andrew: I won’t mess with you.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: You a black belt?

Micah: I made it to blue belt, so you’re fine.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Man, Micah knows karate. But it’s actually… I don’t think it’s a diversionary tactic, but it works out perfectly, because while Madam Hooch is over disciplining Crabbe or, I don’t know, slapping him on the wrist, whatever she does, that is when Draco’s verbal attacks on Harry and Ron and the Weasleys as a whole really pick up.

Andrew: Yeah, and it was sickening to watch, because they won. The game is over. Let it go now. But Draco has to make his way over there and continue taunting them while they are celebrating. That’s just disgusting.

Eric: All he has is his words, right? And Alicia or Angelina even says, “Talk about sour grapes.” You’re a poor sport by still going on about this, but it achieves… you almost wonder if somebody put Malfoy up to this, because in addition to being a bad athlete here and a poor sport, he is goading Harry and Fred and George beyond really the level of tolerance, talking about the smell of their house – where he’s never set foot, let’s be clear – but the smell coming from the fact that Harry’s mom was Muggle-born, and the fact that the Weasleys are poor. These are things that no one could reasonably tolerate past a certain point.

Andrew: I don’t think anyone put Draco up to it, but I think he may have been thinking that “If I taunt them enough, they are going to react, and then Umbridge is going to punish them somehow.” Maybe that’s it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Because we know this fight gives Umbridge exactly what she’s looking for, essentially, and that’s why I wonder if she and Draco just had a conversation, or something like, “Hey…” because we’re just seeing Draco be more organized than I think, frankly, we ever see him in any of the books. He takes a whole year to do the whole Room of Requirement thing next book. But this still strikes me as being much more organized, getting everyone to learn the lines and sing the song and then attack and then basically get attacked, so that Harry can have a lifetime ban. That’s how you one-up your enemy, just with all this illegal, stupid crap.

Micah: Right. It goes past being a sore loser. It’s just unfortunate that there’s nobody there to hear what Draco is saying to Fred and George and Harry. It was interesting to me, though, that with the comments made about Molly and Arthur, Harry is able to keep his composure and he’s able to hold back George, but once something is said about Harry’s mother, that’s the moment when it shifts and he just loses it. And you can’t blame him; I mean, you’re talking about his family. I mean, the Weasleys are his family, but I just found it interesting that was the moment that the switch flipped, and he just goes completely bonkers on Draco.

Laura: Well, it’s really crossing a line there, because he’s taunting Harry about his dead mother.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: It’s just so beyond… it’s so far past the line, I think, that we’re meant to accept. But maybe Hogwarts just needs a meditation course to help people keep their emotions in check, because I don’t know in the end that the penalty that Harry faces is worth it. I think he may… he’s not sad he hit Malfoy, but I think he would have thought twice about it if he had known the end of the… what would happen very shortly after.

Micah: But it was the buildup, though, I think. It’s Molly, it’s Arthur, then it’s the Weasley family as a whole, and then it’s finally about Lily, and that’s just the breaking point. He can only take so much. He’s 15 too.

Eric: That’s a good point. He’s also 15. It’s just you can’t imagine there’s somebody as profane as Draco is who can exist and be allowed to taunt for this large extent. And it’s so maddening that Hooch is distracted by what Crabbe did; this whole time, she only looks over when they’ve physically fought and Harry punches Draco. We can’t really advocate for physical violence here on this show. He does do it, and Hooch comes over and sends them to their Heads of House.

Micah: Why are there not more officials? Why is it just Madam Hooch officiating the…? You think about other sporting events; there’s more than just one umpire or referee. Here it’s just Madam Hooch, and she’s not paying attention to what’s going on. And what happens after Quidditch matches, normally? Do you shake the other team’s hand? Is there some sort of cordial interaction, normally, between the Houses that actually respect each other?

Andrew: You would hope so, but this school sets them up to hate each other, so they don’t do that.

Eric: Yeah, and apparently all the teachers are watching. McGonagall did see what they did. Snape probably did, too, and Umbridge definitely did.

Andrew: And Umbridge’s punishment aside – which we’ll talk about in a second – I just don’t understand how Hooch and McGonagall can get so mad at Harry when there is this taunting happening across the Quidditch pitch. There should have been some acceptance of Harry’s attack in light of what was happening during that game. It’s as if the taunting wasn’t happening at all. They just don’t care.

Eric: Well, that’s it. Yeah, that’s just it. You’re getting… Draco’s taunts would be erased. If you were to take it to Snape, Snape would be like, “I was right there; Draco didn’t say anything.” You’re just covering up for and minimizing the heinous nature and extent of Draco’s comments, and saying… I think Umbridge even uses the Gryffindors’ short tempers against them, completely ignoring the fact that they were provoked, and it’s just… when you have a bold group of people who are unwilling to see truth and have authority, you’re in for a world of shit from what they’re able to do. So let’s get to the meeting. I think, to be fair – Andrew, to your question – why McGonagall is so angry at Harry; I think that’s to do with what this attack opens the door of, right? Because right when Umbridge comes in, she’s saying, “Do you have any idea what you’ve -?”, and then she gets interrupted. And I think what makes McGonagall upset is she knows that this fight will be the linchpin, will be the breaking point to allow Umbridge to do exactly what she does, which is to ban half the Quidditch team.

Andrew: And also, remember, McGonagall has been asking Harry to keep his temper in this book, and here he goes again, losing his temper.

Eric: Yeah, it’s kind of a thing with Harry.

Andrew: It’s justified, but it goes against what McGonagall has been asking him to do multiple times now.

Eric: Exactly. So first of all, when Umbridge comes in and is introducing the… I mean, there’s that little tension between her and McGonagall, and McGonagall is like, “Thankfully, my opinion matters more than yours,” and Umbridge is like, “Um, actually, no, it doesn’t,” and brings out this Educational Degree. Umbridge cites the incident whereby she did not want Gryffindor to be reinstated period. After banning all teams, groups, societies, and clubs, Umbridge was not willing to reinstate the Gryffindor Quidditch team as a whole, and although this was speculated about in the last chapter, this is confirmation that what happened was Umbridge said, “No,” McGonagall didn’t like that, went to Dumbledore, who then insisted that Gryffindor be reinstated. Now, recall our conversation on previous episodes where we all agreed, or seem to agree, that she has no standing to ban Gryffindors just for no reason.

Andrew: Not anymore.

Micah: Right, this gives her the reason, and unfortunately, it justifies what she wanted to do initially. It just proves her point.

Eric: [sighs] Yeah.

Micah: Regardless of what we know, right? Perception is reality, and for anybody watching in the stands, it looked like Harry beat the crap out of Draco. [laughs]

Eric: But it’s fake news, though.

Micah: It is, but that’s where you need more oversight, I think. And this is what’s frustrating as a reader, because you see McGonagall stripped of her power, essentially, but what about Dumbledore? Where is he? He could step in here and make everything good, I think, even with the decrees, because it’s his school at the end of the day. But he’s not there. He’s not doing anything.

Eric: Yeah, and even if he were there, I don’t know that he could do much about this new law that she’s passed. So Umbridge complained to Fudge, she went crying, she was like, “I have no more authority than a common teacher,” which… she’s speaking to the Deputy Headmistress of Hogwarts. Like, biz-natch, sit down.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: She’s like, “I would have no more authority than just a common teacher.” So Fudge gives her complete impunity oversight to not only impose sanctions, but to adjust other teachers’ punishments for students. It’s the lowest of the low. Educational Decree 25 is the worst one yet.

Micah: Now, if Umbridge was a rational professor, she would probably pose the question, “Why is it that three people who just won a Quidditch match would attack a member of the opposing team?” Doesn’t make any sense. They won. It’s not like they lost. They won.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Why? Why do that? Oh, maybe because they were being antagonized.

Eric: Yes, exactly.

Micah: But Draco didn’t lift a finger; that’s the difference. If we want to talk about Crabbe, that’s a whole ‘nother ball game, but Draco didn’t lift a finger.

Eric: Yeah, and we know Crabbe gets lines or something, it’s later said.

Micah: Which is very hard for him, let’s be real.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s just as bad as being banned from a Quidditch game.

Andrew: And interestingly, she calls this a lifetime ban, and I’m a little confused by this, because if you read the decree, it says, “The High Inquisitor will henceforth have supreme authority over all punishments, sanctions, and removal of privileges pertaining to the students of Hogwarts.” So why does she say this is a lifetime ban? Does anyone here believe this could genuinely be a lifetime ban? Assuming this all stayed in place. But what’s going on here? Because I don’t think it is a lifetime ban, based on the way this is written.

Micah: It’s a lifetime ban at Hogwarts, I think.

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I interpreted.

Andrew: What do you mean, though? There’s seven years at Hogwarts. That’s not a lifetime.

Eric: Harry’s got two years left. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t get why it’s called a lifetime ban.

Micah: For effect.

Andrew: And Harry is sweating over this, so that’s why I bring it up.

Micah: Yeah, it’s word choice. It’s saying, “For the duration that you’re at this school, you will not play Quidditch.”

Eric: But also, you could see that running up against Harry in the future if he ever wanted to be a pro at Quidditch. The Ministry… because Dolores has so much authority, there could be a barrier for Harry ever doing professional Quidditch as well.

Laura: Not to mention, she’s confiscated his broomstick.

Eric: Oh.

Laura: So he can’t even practice on his own if he wanted to.

Eric: God, I hate that.

Andrew: Right. Well, he’s got money. He can go buy a new broom, maybe.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: This just means more time for Dumbledore’s Army. This is actually a gift from Umbridge.

Andrew: Thank you, toad.

Eric: Wow, I can see you already prepping your debate stance.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, seriously.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: But… all right, I’ll take a step back. I do think there is a bit of a racist moment on the part of Umbridge, though, with Fred, because she’s looking to punish the counterpart to George basically just because he looks like him, and guilt by association? I mean, what is that?

Eric: Yeah, none of this would hold up under actual law in an actual court, not if anybody competent or morally correct would be there to represent it. The fact… because George actually attacked Draco, gave him a bloody nose or something, but Fred, who was being held back, didn’t actually do anything. You can’t punish somebody for a crime they didn’t do. And you’re right, Micah, I think the way she says…

Micah: Well, you can. I mean, it generally happens a lot, and I don’t know if that’s a bit of the point that J.K. Rowling is trying to make.

Eric: Yeah. Fred just looked at him wrong. Looked like he would have done something.

Micah: Looked like George.

Laura: Well, I mean, to be fair, the only reason Fred didn’t participate was because he was being held back by the three Chasers.

Eric: Yeah, but what does that say about the Gryffindor Quidditch team as a whole? That other Gryffindors…

Micah: They’re strong.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But I’m saying the other Gryffindors knew the seriousness of it all and held him back, which means they’re not all bad. So for Umbridge to have been, I guess, after the fact justified in trying to ban Gryffindor Quidditch to begin with, that’s false because at least half the Gryffindor team is really just able to ignore Draco and try and prevent this conflict.

Laura: See, now I feel like you’re prepping for the debate. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, but it’s not their family, though, Eric. It’s not Alicia’s family or Katie’s family. It’s the Weasleys. And so even if they keep their cool, that’s one thing, but if it was about your family, how would you feel? You would want to get at Draco.

Eric: Well, to that point, I have sort of a wish fulfillment alternate reality here, which we just did for bonus MuggleCast over on Patreon, the Umbridge backstory on Potter-No-More, wherein it is revealed that her father was a janitor for the Ministry of Magic, and Umbridge, her mother was a Muggle. Her brother’s a squib. Her father was this janitor who she persuaded to retire early and later covered up her own father’s existence. If Harry had… in my heart of hearts, I hope that Harry could know this information somehow. All he would need to have said is, “Professor, I know we’ve had our disagreements, but Draco was saying that my mother’s house smelled because she was Muggle-born, that Ron’s family smells because they’re poor. Wasn’t your father a lowly janitor at the Ministry of Magic? How would you feel? Just a little bit of empathy. How would you feel, Umbridge, if what Draco had said, he was saying it about your father?”

Andrew: Well, A, she doesn’t have empathy, and B, I think she would just continue to push back on the fact that Harry punched him. That’s a whole different level to Umbridge.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: And the other teachers at Hogwarts. I mean, in fairness, McGonagall…

Micah: Also, Umbridge doesn’t like her father. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, McGonagall was pissed, too, at the punch. So I don’t think there’s any remedying the situation.

Micah: And I don’t think it was just one… it mentions that he went and gave him a… socked him right in the stomach, but after the fact, I think it was very clear that he basically beat the living crap out of him outside of just that one… I don’t think there was just one punch.

Andrew: Rowling says something along the lines of “Harry just didn’t even know what happened next.” I think he just… his head was on fire, so to speak, and he just started attacking without thinking.

Eric: It’s magic. They’ll heal it.

Micah: Maybe that was the Horcrux in him.

Andrew and Laura: Ooh.

Eric: I love that.

Laura: I really enjoy how McGonagall calls this “Muggle dueling.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Because it’s so savage-looking, but you’re just like, “Wizards are above that.”

Micah: She’s probably lucky, though, that it was Muggle dueling, because if Harry pulled out his wand, imagine what would have happened. It would have been nasty.

Eric: The real victim here, the real innocent victim here, is the Snitch because Harry caught it and he didn’t let it go the entire time he was punching Draco.

Micah: [laughs] Brass knuckles is what he used, basically. The Snitch clutched in his hand.

Eric: Man.

Andrew: Should have shoved that down Draco’s throat.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Let the Snitch attack from the inside, fly around in Draco’s stomach.

Micah: But speaking of McGonagall, I just wanted to throw in a bit of her backstory here. It got mentioned earlier in the discussion how she was all about not giving the Gryffindors homework, and there’s a reason for that, because McGonagall loves her some Quidditch. She was, “like her mother, a gifted Quidditch player, although a nasty fall in her final year (a foul during the Gryffindor versus Slytherin game) left her with a concussion, several broken ribs, and a lifelong desire to see Slytherin crushed on the Quidditch pitch. Though she gave up Quidditch upon leaving Hogwarts, the innately competitive McGonagall later took on a keen interest in the fortunes of her House team, and retained a keen eye for Quidditch talent.” So that’s a cool little bit on McGonagall.

Andrew: Yeah, and I think McGonagall is also just very proud of her students winning the cup before, and she wants to continue feeling that pride with that trophy in her office. I think that’s what she says to the team. So yeah, I think this is a great point that you bring up, Micah, and I also think that she’s just really proud.

Eric: But given her injuries, should she not have doubled down on that whole Crabbe thing? Because…

Micah: Oh, look, Crabbe should be banned. This is the injustice part of it, where there’s clearly not equal… I mean, Crabbe could have broken Harry’s back with that shot. The fact that he gets up and he’s okay is…

Eric: A miracle.

Micah: Lucky.

Eric: So as a final point to this chapter, I’ve kind of been, I don’t know, just feeling this way. I’ve read this chapter twice to prepare our discussion, but I couldn’t help but really feel some strong comparisons to the current American political situation. We have a US president that has been impeached by the House, acquitted in the Senate, and really just an ignorance of the whole fact of the matter, right? The arguments being made to defend Draco… or I’ll just say it, the GOP are sticking to their man in a way that is not wholly logical, just as what Draco did is being unpunished, and really Umbridge – or the GOP – is getting what she wanted to begin with. I drew a better comparison when I wrote it down, but the fact is I see a lot of comparison to just those in power being loyalist and not necessarily doing the whole justice thing.

Laura: Yeah, you know, I think that largely we can apply this to any situation in which there is a lack of justice perpetrated by whatever the ruling faction or ruling power is, and I think that this is something that we can see historical instances of, that we can compare to. And I think we’ve all had personal cases like this where maybe there was a little bit of extra context, like thinking about what Draco said to goad everybody on and how that was missing from the equation, right? So I think that it’s something that we’ve all definitely at least had secondhand experience with witnessing. I think that you could even draw parallels to our criminal justice system, where there is a supreme lack of justice when you look at the way that different groups of people tend to be punished differently based on committing the same crimes as perhaps another group of people that is more socially elevated, if you will.

Eric: It just seems like Draco is untouchable, that nothing he does, no matter how low he stoops, can possibly be punished by Umbridge, who has the real authority over everyone at Hogwarts now as of this decree.

Micah: Well, but he could be; it’s just that they’re not actually taking the steps to investigate and to appropriately punish him for antagonizing Harry and creating that whole situation in the first place. And if you want to take Draco out of it completely, though, what about Crabbe? I mean, he should have been given the same punishment as Harry and George. There’s no reason for it, and that’s where, like what Laura was mentioning, the discrepancy, right? It’s very, very clear that there should be equal punishment here for the actions that were taken, but there isn’t. Harry gets it worse.

Eric: Not only does Umbridge not prosecute Draco or Crabbe, but we find out she actually promotes them to the Inquisitorial Squad later, so she’s actively rewarding their completely unconscionable behavior.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: And that speaks to her sinister nature.

Micah: But Harry is giving her every opportunity to do it.

Eric: By being naive?

Micah: No, he attacked Draco. Say what you want; at the end of the day, he still physically assaulted another student. It’s got to be punished in some capacity. Now, whether or not there’s appropriate oversight by somebody like Dumbledore… again, where is Dumbledore? He’s still in charge of the school. Don’t leave it up to Umbridge to make the call. You make the call. You’re the boss man.

Eric: He’s on an ignoring Harry kick.

Micah: Where is he? In the Room of Requirement?

Eric: [laughs] Does he know about that? Let’s move on to our Umbridge Suck count then.

Andrew: Well, and to wrap up the chapter, Hagrid’s back. That’s the little bright spot at the end of the chapter.

Eric: Oh yeah, by the way, Hagrid’s back. Yay! [laughs]

Micah: Well, and Ron is completely distraught, by the way, at the end of the chapter. I mean, the dude was walking outside in the rain while everything else was going on. I mean, he looks terrible.

Andrew: Yeah, and “I’m leaving the Quidditch team. It’s all over. I can’t take this anymore. Goodbye.” But Hagrid’s back, and next chapter it’s a big ol’ story from a big ol’ half-giant.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I actually read ahead, and wow, he shares a lot, for sure. I actually listened to “Hagrid’s Tale” and this past chapter, Chapter 19, Jim Dale’s version of the story, and it’s a good one actually to listen to, because he sings the song “Weasley Is Our King,” so that’s entertaining. Yeah, so the Umbridge Suck count previously stood at 35. We have a few here this chapter; obviously, she’s pretty prominent in this chapter. One for not taking no for an answer about teachers overruling her, so she has to come in with this Educational Decree.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: There was the lifetime ban on Harry and George. I mean, that’s extremely rough, and I still don’t understand why it’s a lifetime ban, but okay. [laughs]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: What else?

Eric: I definitely wrote writing to Fudge, convincing him that 25 needs to exist. Because here’s something: It’s a little bit short-sighted of Umbridge to realize that this is now going to be school law. This is going to be… it’s going to forever change… it’s like changing the Constitution. You’re going to forever change how these things are interpreted, all because you have a problem, a student that you individually want to punish. You’re going to create an entire constitutional law to punish one person you don’t like.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Banning Fred for not doing anything. Micah brought up that point. Was not pleased.

Eric: Yep, yep.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: So that’s four. And the final one is at the end of her discussion, she says to McGonagall something like, “You’ll be happy, and… but don’t worry; I’m not unreasonable. The remaining Quidditch members can still play, the remaining Gryffindor Quidditch…”

Andrew: Who didn’t do anything wrong. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]


Debate


Andrew: Okay, so now we wanted to have a little debate about Umbridge’s whole punishment, right, Micah?

Micah: Yeah, we used to debate way back in the day, hosted by our co-host Ben; he used to lead these segments. But I thought, why not? This is a great opportunity to debate Umbridge’s punishment for Harry and for George specifically. So the way that we’re going to do it is, Andrew, you and I will present the argument that Umbridge was fully justified in her punishment. Laura and Eric, you will argue that she overstepped her authority and has no basis for handing down this type of punishment. And I thought to make it fun, patrons who are listening live, you can decide the winner. You make the call. So as good or not good as our arguments are, it’s all up to you. You make it. I think we can do a little bit of rebuttal back and forth maybe, but we’ll start by presenting our arguments and then take it from there.

Andrew: Sure.

Micah: How does that sound?

Andrew: I can start on behalf of Micah and myself. And Micah, feel free to come in after I present my correct stances.

Micah: Yeah, sounds good.

Andrew: So first of all, words are just words; they come and go. But a punch to the gut can last forever. By punching Draco, Harry, he risked permanent damage to another Hogwarts student. That’s not right, and J.K. Rowling has taught us that violence is not the answer. Harry is ignoring that lesson by being vicious to Draco, and by letting Harry go for this attack, J.K. Rowling would be teaching us that it is okay to physically harm another student over their use of words, and that would have been wrong as well. And I acknowledge that the comments Draco and the song by Draco were bad, but it doesn’t mean you get a free pass to punch somebody. And Harry has been told repeatedly throughout this book to control his temper, as I brought up earlier, but he has continued to ignore that warning, so he deserves this punishment from Umbridge, and maybe now he will learn.

Micah: Right. Yeah, Andrew, I really could not agree more with you, I think.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You brought up the fact that Harry physically assaults Draco. He doesn’t… he can’t… come on, Harry, come up with some words to throw back in his face. The fact that he goes after him… he uses the Snitch in his hand like brass knuckles, pummeling this poor child in the stomach and other parts of his body. He’s using the Snitch as a weapon. And this is just a bad example for all the other students that are in attendance; think of all the young students that are watching this unfold. And he clearly knew better, because he initially restrained George, right? He’s holding him back, so he knows what’s right and what’s wrong, but yet he goes ahead and does it anyway. And Umbridge is in the right here because it just shows Dumbledore lacks control. We talk about it all the time; Hogwarts is a security nightmare.

Andrew: Security nightmare.

Micah: Dumbledore lacks control. You’ve got kids fighting each other on the Quidditch pitch, what’s supposed to be a nice sporting event. I mean, Dumbledore, put some more officials down there. And Quidditch is a privilege, by the way, okay?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You’re representing your House. Is this what Gryffindor stands for? So clearly, Umbridge was correct in her initial stance of not wanting to reform Gryffindor, because look at what happens.

Eric and Laura: Wow.

Laura: You took that a step further, even. All right. Well, Eric and I can go ahead and deliver our opening statements, and then we can do some back and forth. I just wanted to say first, Andrew and Micah, I really appreciated some of the points that you brought up during the show. I think that they bolster the argument that really this was an example of Umbridge overstepping her authority.

Andrew: No, you misheard.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Oh, I see.

Micah: You have to let her speak.

Andrew: I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

Laura: Yeah, I was pretty sure that I heard allusions to the idea of Umbridge really using this new Educational Decree in order to further her personal political agenda at the school to target one particular student. Anytime that you’re applying a set of rules, or even a set of laws, they can’t just be for one person. That’s not effective. Furthermore, this is a clear example of prejudice on the part of Umbridge, again, part of her own personal agenda, to make sure that the Ministry remains on a pedestal and that nobody at Hogwarts dares to see themselves as equals to the Ministry. The other thing that I would say here is that if the concern is violence, then where was all of this punishment in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, when the Slytherin team was incredibly violent towards the Gryffindor team? We’ll provide examples later when we do connecting the threads, but we’re talking about Slytherins hitting Gryffindor players with their clubs. We’re talking about them grabbing Gryffindor players by the head and knocking them off their broom. It’s brutal, and it just goes to show that Hogwarts does not know how to deal with inter-student conflicts very well. So rather than saying, “Okay, five years into one student’s career, we’re going to drop the hammer in the most severe way possible in order to counter this issue,” what Hogwarts needs to do is they need to burn their whole punishment system to the ground and rebuild it, because again, trying to apply a very severe consequence that only applies to one group of particular students is not an effective way to see behavioral changes amongst your student population. With that, I’ll turn it over to you, Eric.

Eric: Umbridge’s glee at delivering the news confirms her personal bias on this matter. She is trying to meddle with a lifetime ban, meddling in something that should only affect these guys for the remainder of their Hogwarts years, one year or two years. Instilling a lifetime ban is a blatant overreach of power. It really tips Umbridge’s hand at what her end game is, which is Ministry dominance, as Laura so eloquently pointed out. And the lack of punishment for Crabbe, the lack of suitable or similar punishment for someone who very… if we’re going to play up the injuries to Draco and say, “Oh, he could have permanently damaged this kid,” a Bludger to the small of the back that Harry felt, I would argue, is as serious, if not more so, based solely on human beings’ weak spots and the location of the blows. This is a school with magic, so I don’t think that ultimately, either Harry or Draco have permanent damage, not like the writing that Umbridge herself makes Harry do on his hand. Umbridge’s concern for the wellbeing of Draco’s physical state, or punishing Harry and George for harming Draco, is so hypocritical, given her own past use of punishment and corporal law on Harry and his injuries, scars that we know he carries for 20 years in advance. So there’s nothing behind Umbridge except this blatant overuse of the law, incredible hypocrisy, and frankly, it’s just simply bias on the part of Umbridge, and she’s overstepping her authority.

Micah: She’s not overstepping her authority. I mean, she’s the Senior Undersecretary to the Minister. She’s the High Inquisitor of Hogwarts. She has the full authority.

Eric: Well, she had to go and get that.

Micah: No, she’s already the High Inquisitor. She has the authority of the Ministry. And you know, if we’re going to talk about Prisoner of Azkaban, right? And all the fighting that went on, that’s just further proof that you need somebody like Umbridge at the school.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: It’s a security nightmare, Hogwarts.

Laura: I would agree with you if she was applying the punishment equally across all guilty parties, but she’s not.

Micah: No, that’s a fair point. I think… we can talk about Crabbe, but this particular argument is focused on Harry and George. I don’t disagree with you. I think Crabbe should have received the same punishment.

Eric: But then Umbridge wasn’t fully justified in her punishment of Harry and George if she didn’t also…

Micah: No, she was. They were physical.

Eric: No, but she wasn’t if she didn’t also apply it to Crabbe. That’s what we’re arguing, right?

Micah: But we’re not talking about Crabbe. We’re talking about Harry and George.

Andrew: Yeah, we’re just saying was Harry’s punishment justified, and yes, it was.

Eric: Well, you can’t…

Laura: Well, and we’re also talking about… I think when we’re talking about whether or not she had the authority to do this, I think her intention really counts, and again, as we’ve already established, her intention here is not actually to do the right thing. If Umbridge was somebody who cared about doing the right thing, she wouldn’t be forcing students to slice open the backs of their hands during detention. She wouldn’t be denying the fact that Voldemort has returned in order to prop herself up with the Minister of Magic, right? So we can take that off the table. Umbridge doesn’t care about doing the right thing. She cares about doing the right thing for her personal political agenda, and that’s what this is.

Eric: And she sent the Dementors to Little Whinging and that was outside the law. She is a woman who is clearly willing to break the law in order to achieve her political ends. The fact what I was saying about her…

Micah: Well, we can talk about putting her on trial for things too, but that’s not what this debate is about.

Eric: But it is because we’re talking about…

Micah: It’s about her punishment of Harry. Harry acted in a way that was completely inappropriate in front of hundreds if not thousands of other students. He’s supposed to be a role model. He’s supposed to be a fifth year at this point. That’s no way for him to behave. And honestly, his track record… if we want to talk about outside of this argument, his track record does not speak well for him in terms of defying authority, so you know what? He gets what he deserves here.

Andrew: Yeah. Micah, Laura and Eric have to keep digging elsewhere, because they have no argument. I mean, they’re just desperate.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Bolstering our argument about Umbridge as a person, yes.

Andrew: No, this is really desperate. I just…

Eric: She had to seek more authority from the Minister himself because she just didn’t have it to begin with, and he’s enabling her to punish and exclude individual people over others because he’s a bad Minister.

Micah: Again, we could debate…

Laura: And furthermore, I mean, we have to point out that she actually didn’t have the authority to do this until she convinced Fudge that she needed Educational Decree number 25.

Eric: That’s what I’m saying.

Laura: So she did that exactly because McGonagall and Dumbledore stopped her from being prejudiced against the Gryffindor team before anyone on the Gryffindor team had even done anything worth punishing.

Eric: She’s inventing new laws because the old laws didn’t let her personally punish somebody illegally. It’s an open and shut case, frankly.

Micah: Oh, so students should just go around punching each other without any punishment.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s what they’re saying. Go ahead, punch away. You hear that, listeners? Younger listeners, go and punch some people.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Reparo.

Laura: No, no, so nobody here is saying that there shouldn’t be a punishment for participating in that kind of behavior, but what we’re saying is that the punishment that is given here is rooted in Umbridge’s prejudice towards the Gryffindor team.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: I mean, look, it’s justified.

Andrew: If she didn’t have any prejudice, you don’t think she still would have thought that Harry deserved to be punished?

Micah: This woman is so smart that she had the foresight to see that reforming the Gryffindor Quidditch team was a problem, and she was right.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s an excellent point. Yep, she saw this coming.

Eric: It’s only a problem because Slytherins decide to make it a problem.

Micah: All right, let’s wrap it up. That was a lot of fun.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Obviously, Micah and I had an uphill battle. [laughs]

Micah: Good arguments across the board.

Andrew: And the listeners agree that Laura and Eric won the debate, so good job, you two.

Laura: Oh, thank you. You know what? I was kind of disappointed, because I like arguing from the hard side of a debate.

Micah: [laughs] Next time.

Andrew: Yeah, well, you can…

Laura: I will take it next time.

Eric: I was so scared that people would give it to you guys, actually. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, we did have some great points.

Eric: You had some great… yeah, you had some… well, just by saying that we were reaching and going elsewhere for examples was…

Andrew: [laughs] I’m just teasing you guys.

Eric: Ugh.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Eric, I could feel you. I could feel your tension rising.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, Eric’s blood was boiling.

Eric: I was starting to panic, honestly.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s going to be a fun one to edit.

Micah: It just goes to show you, you can spin anything.

Laura: You really, really can.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: Well, speaking of this whole Gryffindor versus Slytherin conflict in Quidditch, there were a lot of threads that we could connect between Chapter 19 of Order of the Phoenix and then Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, wherein Gryffindor and Slytherin are playing in their Quidditch final to determine who wins the Quidditch Cup that year. So we can start with the theme of cheating. So in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, Harry notes that “He couldn’t walk to class without Slytherins sticking out their legs and trying to trip him up; Crabbe and Goyle kept popping up wherever he went, and slouching away looking disappointed when they saw him surrounded by people.” Then we see this contrasted in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, where it says, “Ron had never endured a relentless campaign of insults, jeers, and intimidation. When Slytherins, considerably larger than he was, muttered as they passed in the corridors, ‘Got your bed booked in the hospital wing, Weasley?’ he did not laugh, but turned a delicate shade of green.” So we see here this early bullying, early intimidation of the Gryffindor team on the part of Slytherins who are trying to throw them off their game.

Micah: He should have been like, “Yeah, I do, right next to yours.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “My bed is booked. Come join me.” I don’t know.

Laura: Yeah. But as we can see, Ron is not really quick with the retorts like Harry is. So we also see in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, that “Angelina was nearly thrown from her broom as Marcus Flint went smashing into her,” and immediately after this point in Prisoner of Azkaban, the Gryffindors all start booing because it’s clearly intentional, and Marcus Flint starts going, “Oh, sorry, I didn’t see her. Sorry, sorry.” This is also a chapter in which Madam Hooch gives so many penalty shots to the Gryffindor team because of the amount of violence that’s coming from the Slytherin team.

Micah: Madam Hooch needs a counterpart. She needs a second or third official, really.

Eric: Yeah, I would agree with that.

Laura: Then we also see in Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban, “Montague had swerved in front of Katie, and instead of seizing the Quaffle had grabbed her head.” He also tried to make it seem like this was an accident.

[Eric grumbles]

Laura: And really what I thought was very interesting here was that the Slytherins really shy away from the physical violence in this chapter of Order of the Phoenix in Chapter 19, I think, because they learned their lesson the last time they did this and realized all they’re earning themselves is a bunch of penalty shots from the Gryffindors. So really, they’re like, “Hey, Hogwarts doesn’t really know how to deal with emotional bullying, so let’s go ahead and do that this chapter,” and it’s really effective.

Eric and Micah: Yep.

Laura: Then I thought there was a really interesting little thread that we could connect in terms of etiquette. So in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, it says, “Flint and Wood approached each other and grasped each other’s hands very tightly; it looked as though each was trying to break the other’s fingers.” Then, in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, it says, “Harry could tell that Montague was trying to crush Angelina’s fingers, though she did not wince.”

Eric: Nice.

Laura: There are so many great moments in these chapters that use almost the same exact descriptors. It’s crazy.

Andrew: Did you do a Google search for “fingers” in Prisoner of Azkaban to try and find some matches?

Laura: No, I just read the chapter.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It’s called research.

Laura: Anytime we do this…

Andrew: I’m just kidding.

Laura: Yeah, I actually go back through Prisoner of Azkaban and reread chapters that I think correspond.

Andrew: Nice. I love it.

Laura: And then there’s a really similar situation with where the Snitch is spotted. So in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, we’ll all remember that Harry saw the Golden Snitch “hovering feet from the ground at the Slytherin end of the pitch.” In Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, Harry saw it “shimmering at the foot of one of the Gryffindor goal posts.”

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: So we see a little bit of a flip in terms of which goal post it’s by, but in both chapters it’s in a very similar location, and then Harry and Draco’s subsequent dive to race for the Snitch is also written very similarly.

Eric: J.K. Rowling is just copy and pasting her Gryffindor Quidditch matches.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: There’s also a… it’s almost very reminiscent, at least after Harry catches the Snitch, of… the fact that he forgets that it’s in his hand until much later on in the chapter, it’s like… I don’t know, it reminded me a bit of James, too, and isn’t he playing with the Snitch during a chapter of Prisoner of Azkaban? Don’t we get a mention of that? Or am I thinking about something later on, when Harry is doing Occlumency? I don’t know. It’s just… it was very James to me.

Laura: Yeah, no, I mean, Harry definitely brings the Snitch back to the Gryffindor common room and it is fluttering around in Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban. Or rather, sorry, Chapter 19 of Order of the Phoenix. Flip those. And then finally, Hagrid actually gets a shout-out at the end of each of these Quidditch chapters. Yeah, so at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15 when the Gryffindors win the House Cup, Hagrid is not mentioned at all in this chapter, but all of a sudden he’s one of the people flooding on to the pitch to be like, “Yeh did it, Harry.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And then at the end of Chapter 19 of Order of the Phoenix, we of course get that wonderful moment where Hermione observes that Hagrid is back after a long absence.

Andrew and Eric: [imitating Fudge] “He’s back!”

[Eric laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, time now for MVP of the Week.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Much shorter. No time to get everybody all excited.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to McGonagall for standing up to the toad.

Eric: Nice. I’ve given mine to Luna for that hat.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You know the one.

Micah: Giving it to Hagrid for being back.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: What?

Micah: Well, I mean, it’s the only good thing that happened in this chapter.

Andrew: Thanks, Hagrid, for being back.

Laura: I’m giving mine to Harry for protecting Ron’s dignity. He keeps him from seeing those “Weasley Is Our King” badges, and he also rushes to catch the Snitch so that Ron’s missed goals don’t cost Gryffindor the match.

Eric: Nice.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: All right, and now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “Weasley Gets Mad Stinged.”

Eric: [laughs] I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “Toad on Top.”

Andrew: [to the tune of “Love on Top”] “Toed on top.” By Beyoncé.

Eric: Toad on top.

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “Quidditch [censored].” It’s a play on Quidditch pitch. You get it?

Andrew and Eric: Ohhh.

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: Umbridge is a… yeah, all right.

Laura: And I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 19, “Yo Mama.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, J.K. Rowling was really ahead of her time with the “Yo Mama” jokes.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She started that whole thing. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in – MuggleCast@gmail.com – or send a voice memo to that same email address. Just try to keep your message about a minute long and record in a quiet place, please. We also have the contact form on MuggleCast.com where you can write to us. We love getting feedback from everybody, so thank you so much for sending it in.

Micah: So just really quickly, what would be the Draco version of this? Was it like, “Yo Mama so Muggle…”?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: That’d be a good one.

Laura: I mean, it sounds like it would be like, “Yo Mama so Muggle,” or “Yo Mama so poor.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Yo Mama so Muggle, she sweeps herself. Ohhh!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh my God.

Andrew: “Yo Mama so Muggle, she cooks! Oh!” I don’t know if those work as well. We’ll have to work on those.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What does Hermione use to bewitch the golden coins for the DA members? The answer, of course, being the Protean Charm. Winners include Anne Smith, Reese Without Her Spoon, Samwise Potter, Skywalker, Caleb McReynolds, Sara a.k.a. Weensie, Krista, Tara, Marie, Breanna, Pranvi, Issy, Robbie, Patches, Hallow, Stacy, Deborah, Alex, Dispatches from Elsewhere, Cat’s Pajamas, Julian S., and Jason King. We’re back, baby. More people are participating in Quizzitch than ever before.

Micah: Nice.

Eric: Really happy about it.

Andrew: It’s the music.

Eric: Yeah, I think so too. Next week’s question: Where did Hagrid have a disagreement with a vampire? This comes from the next chapter, “Hagrid’s Tale.” Submit your answer to us over on Twitter at @MuggleCast, hashtag Quizzitch.

Andrew: I want to know more about the vampires in the wizarding world.

Eric: Me too.

Andrew: Maybe we can talk about that more next week. Before we wrap up today’s episode, just want to say thank you to everybody who supports us on Patreon. We really appreciate your support, and if you’re not already a patron, we would love if you supported us. It is because of our Patreon that we are a weekly podcast. And to thank you for supporting us, we give you lots of benefits back. One of the coolest benefits, I think, is that you can tune into our livestreams. Each week as we record, you can tune in and hear every single moment as it is recorded. You’ll hear some stuff that probably won’t make the final version of the show. And speaking of that final version, you do get it early as a patron; we tend to release it sometime Monday, as soon as we get the show finished, and then everybody else gets it on Tuesday. And then, of course, every year we send out a new physical gift to everybody who has pledged at the Dumbledore’s Army level or higher, and this year’s gift will be announced in the weeks ahead, so stay tuned for that. Again, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Oh, and here’s a fun new benefit: We now record a personalized video “Thank you” message for you after you pledge, so within a few days after you pledge, you will be getting a message from one of us, and it’s been so fun to do that. It’s been a really cool way to connect to each listener individually. Also, please do follow us on social media. We are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. And with that, thank you, everybody for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura. See ya.

Micah: Bye.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Transcript #454

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #454, Drinky Winky (OOTP 18, Dumbledore’s Army)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re joined by one of our Slug Club patrons this week, Grace. Hi, Grace. Welcome to the show.

Grace: Thanks, super excited to be here.

Andrew: Yeah, good to have you. You’re wearing your Voldemort Day shirt…

Grace: That’s right.

Andrew: … which, I don’t know if we should allow that. That’s very dark.

Grace: For Voldemort and Valor.

Andrew: Whoa, whoa! Don’t say it!

Eric: Wow. Whoa.

[Grace laughs]

Andrew: Chills. Thanks for supporting us on Patreon. Let’s get your fandom ID.

Grace: So my favorite book is Goblet of Fire. My favorite movie is probably Deathly Hallows – Part 2, just because I saw it at LeakyCon in 2011 so it’s a great memory. My Hogwarts House is Slytherin, if you couldn’t tell from the Voldemort Day shirt.

[Andrew laughs]

Grace: My Ilvermorny House is Horned Serpent, so snake, snakes. And then ironically, my Patronus is a lioness, so bummer. And then the last question this week about my favorite room or area of Hogwarts kind of threw me, because obviously, after the chapter we’re talking about today, you want to say Room of Requirement. But after I thought about it, I think one of the coolest places in Hogwarts is actually Dumbledore’s office.

Andrew: Ohh.

Grace: I really love the design of that space and also the stuff in it. I feel like you could be in there forever. So yeah, I’m going to go with Dumbledore’s office on that one.

Andrew: It’s so cozy. And of course, you just want to hang out with Dumbledore in there.

Grace: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Have some mead. Knit some socks.

Grace: All the old headmasters and everything. Crazy.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. That’s cool. Well, great. Welcome to the show. And like you mentioned, we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18 today, “Dumbledore’s Army,” and we’ll get to that in a little bit, but we’ve got some news to talk about. First of all, Cormoran Strike Book 5 is titled Troubled Blood, and it will be released September 29, 2020. J.K. Rowling recently said that she had finished the book, so we were expecting it this year, and yeah, coming out this fall now. So now I definitely need to finish reading Lethal White. I’m up against the clock, officially.

Eric: It seems like, based on the title, that Strike will be confronting some of his relations, some of his blood relations.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: That’s kind of what I get from it.

Andrew: Yeah, there used to be a time on the show where we would analyze titles of J.K. Rowling books, so…

[Andrew and Grace laugh]

Micah: Not anymore, though.

Andrew: Yeah. I just think of the Taylor Swift song “Bad Blood” every time I look at that title.

Laura: That’s what I thought of too. [laughs]

Grace: Definitely her inspiration.

Andrew: [singing] “Now we got troubled blood.” Anyway, so yeah, we’re all looking forward to that. We’re all in agreement here that these books are really, really good. Lethal White was dense, so that’s why I had tuned out and not finished it, but I’m looking forward to this, and I’m really glad J.K. Rowling is keeping up this series.

Micah: I think there’s a chance for a double meaning, though, here too, not just related to Strike, but I’m sure if there’s a case that he’s working, that it’s possible that there could be some troubled blood between the family members.

Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: Yeah, or maybe there is trouble with the blood!

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Maybe it’s got a biological agent or something in it.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Maybe “Blood” is a person.

Andrew: Whoa.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Maybe “Troubled” is a person. Whoa.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But it’s interesting, though, because we don’t know much about Strike’s family, I don’t think. I mean, we know about his father a little bit, but I guess we’re going to learn a lot more.

Andrew: You know, each of these words ends with the letter D, and Dan Radcliffe starts with D, so I think this confirms Dan Radcliffe is in the plot of Troubled Blood.

Eric: Definitely.

Laura: I didn’t know we brought back crackpot theory.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That is not a crackpot theory. That is a good theory.

Laura: Okay. [laughs]

Micah: Well…

Andrew: Speaking of… go ahead.

Micah: I was going to say, speaking of crackpot theories, Cursed Child is opening in Japan.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I was going to say, speaking of expansion, yeah, Cursed Child is opening in Japan. This is going to be the seventh production by the time it opens in summer 2022. This will be the first production in Asia, so pretty cool; nice to see it expanding. I don’t think any of us are ever going to get over to Japan to see it. I mean, we can’t even get Laura to New York to see it.

[Grace laughs]

Laura: Yeah, not going to happen.

Andrew: Have you seen it, Grace?

Grace: Yeah, I actually flew to New York over the summer. It was my graduation from graduate school present to myself.

Andrew: That’s fantastic. Of course you did, because you’re wearing the shirt.

Grace: Yeah, I went and saw it over the summer. I wish I could have seen it with the original cast, but it was interesting. [laughs]

Andrew: Interesting. Oh, did you not love it?

Grace: I did – well, I read the book, of course, the script book, but the illusions in that show were worth every penny to fly up there. The stuff that they do in the theater is incredible.

Andrew: Right, right. Yeah, the illusions are crazy. They make you believe that Voldemort had a child.

[Grace and Laura laugh]

Andrew: One other little piece of news to mention: Fantastic Beasts 3 is going to start filming any day now. Callum Turner, who plays Theseus Scamander in the series, he said while he hasn’t seen the script and he has no idea about the extent of his involvement, they were going to start filming in about six weeks, and he said this back in mid-January, so that would put this timeline at right around now, late February. So we’ll see if Warner Bros. makes an announcement; presumably they will once they’re in production, because people would like to see that, including their investors, that they’re actually filming this finally. So hopefully we’ll get some more information about the film in the weeks ahead. Maybe they’ll even rev the fandom up and give us a title. Who knows?

Micah: No.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s all I want.

Micah: But just to add to that, I know on the last episode, which was a couple weeks ago, we had talked about the new illustrated edition of Sorcerer’s Stone done by MinaLima. And we reached out to them, and we will probably have them on the show closer to when the book is released. But one thing that I did get a piece of information, I guess from their publicist, is that they can’t do it now because they are working on Fantastic Beasts 3.

Eric: There you go.

Micah: So a nice tie-in to your story here, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah. Aren’t we more important than Fantastic Beasts 3? Can’t they cut some time out for us?

[Grace laughs]

Micah: After the last movie, I don’t know, Andrew. I would think that… not to say… I mean, obviously the work that MinaLima does is exceptional…

Andrew: It’s amazing.

Micah: … but storytelling needs a little work.

Andrew: Yeah, so I’m just excited to see… hopefully we get some information. I mean, we’re still, what, a little under two years away now from Fantastic Beasts 3

Eric: Sure.

Andrew: … but if all had gone according to plan, we would have been seeing it this November, and I’m sure we would have heard a lot about it by now, but oh well. I’m calling it Fantastic Beasts: More Hogwarts, Y’all until they announce an official title.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Since they said we’re going to be getting more Hogwarts. Okay, we have some Muggle Mail to discuss today as well, but first, this week’s episode of MuggleCast is sponsored by Open Fit.

[Ad break]

Eric: And as a reminder to all of our MuggleCast listeners, we have a listener survey going out in the Interwebs right now, and the important thing about this is that it is the best way for you as our listeners to tell us, well, how you found the show, what you like about the show, what you don’t like about the show, and where you’re from, because… well, spoilers. But we have a lot of good questions. We pored over it. They each tell us just a depth of knowledge we didn’t have before. If you would be so kind, please take the time this week to fill out the MuggleCast listeners survey. We are actually capping responses; we’re going to stop gathering responses on this Friday, February 28, because that will have been at least a month since we’ve had this thing out. So we’ve gotten over 1,000 responses; it’s super helpful, but don’t think for a second that somebody else said exactly what you would say if you took it, because it may be your insight that leads us to the next big gift that we give our patrons, or next big event, live event that we do. I mean, really, there’s several opportunities there in the questions to really lay out your specific opinion or ideas, and we are looking at those. We are ravenous for those ideas.

Andrew: If anyone says they don’t like my singing, though, that will be thrown in the trash. Just a warning.

Eric: Andrew, I’ve reviewed a couple of the responses. I don’t know what to tell you. I’m so sorry.

Andrew: Oh no.

Eric: But then for everybody that said they didn’t like it, other people are clamoring for an album, so you’ve got to…

Andrew: Oh. Wait, did people actually say they don’t like it?

[Grace laughs]

Eric: No, no, no.

Andrew: Oh, okay. All right.

Micah: Well, they will now because you basically asked for it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: So please take it till this Friday to… or no, do it before this Friday to fill out the MuggleCast listener survey. And the link for that will be in the show notes; it’s already on the website and our social.


Listener Feedback


Micah: All right, time now for some Muggle Mail on Twitter. We actually heard from an old college friend of mine, Brian, and yeah, he actually found the show by himself, not through me, and then followed up with me and asked me if it was actually me on the show.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, that’s funny.

Micah: This was years ago at this point, years ago. But he says,

“On the topic of Harry becoming an Auror instead of becoming a professor at Hogwarts, he could be/do both. My best professors were the practicing designers or visiting artists who took ‘time off’ from their professional careers to advise on the current trends and practices outside the walls of the university. I had professors who went directly from study to teaching, and those classes were not as beneficial as the educators who learned what worked/didn’t work out in the real world.”

Laura: So true.

Andrew: I love that.

Micah: So I know we talked on the last episode about whether or not Harry should have just gone back to Hogwarts and taught there, specifically Defense Against the Dark Arts, instead of becoming an Auror, because let’s face it, he defeated Voldemort at 17; he doesn’t really need to become an Auror. Any dark forces that he faces in the future pale in comparison to Voldemort.

Andrew: Just won’t live up to the original.

Eric: But that is a big thing in academia, is having professors who worked in the field or are actively working in the field. I know that was a big thing that DePaul was advertising when I was going to DePaul here in Chicago, is that a certain high percentage of their staff members were actively working in the field that they were teaching.

Andrew: That’s great. It’s reassuring. “This person practices what they preach.”

Eric: Yeah, it just promises they have up-to-date info on what it’s really like.

Andrew and Grace: Yeah.

Grace: I actually teach at a community college, and so that’s one of the really cool things about it, is that we all have day jobs and then we also get to teach part-time, so we get to put that practice into the classroom. It’s pretty cool.

Laura: That’s awesome.

Eric: What do you teach?

Grace: I teach public speaking, so communication.

Eric: Oh, cool.

Grace: Yeah, everyone’s least favorite class behind math.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That’s important. No, tell people, “Hey, you want to be a podcaster someday? Take this class.”

Grace: I actually do cover podcasting as forms of modern public speaking.

Andrew: Really? Oh, cool.

Grace: So this is cool; I get to go in and be like, “See? I wasn’t kidding.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, on a similar note, we also heard from C Bird on Twitter. They say,

“Hey, MuggleCasters. In the latest episode, you ask the question if Harry could even become a teacher since he didn’t graduate, and at this point, I want to reach through my phone and yell, ‘How can you forget Hagrid?!’ He’s a teacher (not a very good one) but left after his third year.”

Yeah, that’s true.

Andrew: Yeah, good point.

Micah: But it was Dumbledore back then who was hiring these lackeys. Who is it now? Is it McGonagall? Is it somebody else?

Laura: Yeah, I feel like McGonagall would probably have more stringent standards. [laughs]

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: It could still be Hagrid; he’d just have to take a couple of those certification courses.

[Grace laughs]

Micah: And he would have to use Open Fit. Maybe if he shed a couple pounds, then he can come in incognito.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, right. And shaved his beard? Nobody would recognize him.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: But this makes me think of Neville too. We never know whether or not he finished Hogwarts, and he obviously becomes Herbology professor.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, that’s a great point. And this from Abigail:

“Hey, MuggleCast! Big fan here. I’ve been listening to your podcast for a little while now with my sister. I recently became a patron because I wanted to get in on extra content. My sister Hannah has been a patron for several months, and I haven’t told her I became a patron. I think it would be funny if you read this email on the podcast so I can rub it in my sister’s face that I was on MuggleCast first. Wishing you all the best, Abigail.”

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Andrew: So Hannah, your sister’s a patron now. Isn’t that cool? Thank you both.

Eric: [laughs] Wouldn’t it be funny if they met on this morning’s hangout first?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “You’re here too?!”

Laura: Oh, sisterly shade.

Andrew: Yeah, and thank you, sisters, for getting separate accounts. Other people would share their password, but you two, you pledge separately, so thank you. We appreciate that a lot. Like Micah, for example, always asking me for my Disney+ password, my Netflix password… I’m like, “Dude, pay for it yourself.”

Micah: But somehow you still give it to me, so I don’t know why.

Andrew: Because I love you; that’s why. Okay, so we also have a voice message now from Marie.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast. This is Marie. Relatively new listener, but I am obsessed, and I have been listening backwards all the way up to, like, Episode 300. I wanted to share with you a quick theory that I had. I was curious once about what Dumbledore’s boggart might be, so I googled it, and it said that it was the corpse of his sister, Ariana. But I don’t remember that being anywhere in canon; you can correct me if I’m wrong. But my theory is that Dumbledore’s boggart is actually himself. Now, hear me out: He knows that he has a dark past. He knows that he made poor decisions as a young man. He knows that he shouldn’t trust himself with power; I’m pretty sure that he actually said that that’s the reason why he didn’t become Minister of Magic when everyone wanted him to be. He knows that he’s probably partially or fully responsible for the death of his sister, and I’m sure that he realizes all of his flaws. And so that’s my theory, is that when a boggart stands in front of Dumbledore that it becomes himself, and that’s what his greatest fear is. Let me know what you think. Thanks.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: That is super cool for sharing. However, we did look this up and J.K. Rowling did confirm that his boggart is his sister, Ariana, which I love. I did not know that before. This is one of those things that J.K. Rowling just mentioned in passing, in a Bloomsbury webchat back in 2007 or something, so who knows if she still remembers that? Hopefully she does, and this may even come into play in the future Fantastic Beasts films.

Laura: I will say, I think Dumbledore is into himself enough, though, that I could see this being some kind of AU theory about his boggart.

Andrew: AU?

Laura: Yeah, alternate universe.

Andrew: Oh, oh.

Laura: Dumbledore is kind of into himself.

Micah: I really like this theory.

Eric: Yeah, I think he fears himself too, though, so I think it makes sense. He fears what he himself is capable of, especially after Ariana’s death.

Micah: It ties him very closely to Leta. It’s almost the exact same boggart, just in different form.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Cool. Well, thank you for sharing, Marie. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, this week’s episode is also sponsored by a product that the Granger family would surely be big fans of: Quip.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Dumbledore’s Army.” What an exciting chapter. And we will start, as always, with our seven-word summary, and Grace, you get to kick it off today. So I’m going to start the music after you contribute the first word, okay?

Grace: All right, so first word: Hogwarts…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: … is…

Andrew: … holding…

Micah: … a…

Eric: … group…

Grace: … Defense…

Laura: … meeting!

Andrew: Yay! With seven seconds to spare.

Micah: Well done.

Grace: Go team.

Andrew: I really like that music.

Micah: I love how we arranged the letters so that they say “LAME” in the middle.

Andrew: This segment is trying to tell us something.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: We pulled through.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: So yeah, as the chapter title suggests, this is the chapter in which we have our first real Dumbledore’s Army meeting. However, this chapter starts off with something I wanted to mention unrelated to the overall discussion. At the beginning they’re discussing Umbridge’s latest infiltration, looking at Harry’s letters, and Harry Accios a bullfrog, and this jumped out to me because I remembered that on her new website last year or a couple years ago, J.K. Rowling said that Newt could not just Accio all his beasts in the first Fantastic Beasts movie because you can only Accio inanimate objects. So little mistake there, and this is why J.K. Rowling needs a team of people to make sure everything she’s saying checks out canon-wise.

Eric: Right.

Grace: I was thinking about it, and so the first time we ever see McGonagall in Transfiguration, she transfigures a table into a pig, which, like, how does that work? So my out was maybe the toads that they use in Flitwick’s classroom are her old socks or something that she’s just turned into toads for them to be able to practice on.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Grace: So maybe they are inanimate objects at heart. [laughs]

Andrew: Bit of a stretch, but yeah, it can work in the wizarding world.

Micah: It could, yeah. But if you go to Crimes of Grindelwald, Newt does Accio the Niffler at one point during the movie.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Yeah, except I think the reason that we have been discussing this more recently is because in the first Fantastic Beasts movie, he could have supposedly Accio‘d all of the beasts that fell out of his case.

Andrew: Exactly, and then J.K. Rowling is like, “No, you can’t do that,” and then in the next movie, she’s like, “Accio Niffler!”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: There have been theories about maybe because the Niffler was so close in proximity, or because the Niffler had gold in its pocket.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But Newt said, “Niffler,” not “Accio gold.”

Micah: It’s also smaller. It’s a Niffler; it’s not an Erumpent or something that is massive in size. I also like what you said about proximity; I don’t think he could just wave his wand in Central Park, and if the beast is by the Empire State Building, it’s automatically going to just fly over to him.

Andrew: No, not in that traffic.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, and also, what was he going to say? “Accio all of my beasts”?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Movie over.

Eric: Well, he’d be able to name them one by one.

Laura: It’s a lot of beasts.

Eric: A lot of them aren’t indigenous to the region, so they’re probably the only one of its kind in the thing. What I go back to is that Harry Accio‘d his broom from his bedroom on the other side of the grounds during the first Triwizard task. There is a distance allotment; you’re allowed to do it from some kind of a distance.

Andrew: Right, right. How far? That is the question. Hasn’t J.K. Rowling said you couldn’t do it over an ocean, too? I vaguely remember something like that.

Micah: Yes. One other thing I just want to mention at the top of the chapter – because we did discuss this when we were talking about “The Hog’s Head” – but the chapter art for “Dumbledore’s Army” is actually pretty comical; not sure if people got a chance to take a look at it, but it is Dobby with a lot of hats and scarves and socks. And pretty significant, though, that he also plays a role in a chapter titled “Dumbledore’s Army.” We can talk more about him later.

Eric: My big question about McGonagall and her classroom… this is something interesting. So what they’re doing to the toad – or the bullfrogs, sorry – is silencing them using Silencio. Something that struck me was in the absence of a proper Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, is it possible that the other teachers are picking up some of the slack? The reason is you see what Silencio does to a bullfrog, but immediately, because I know how this chapter is ending, I’m thinking this would be a great spell for people to learn on other people, because so few people, even as of year seven, can do non-verbal magic. So you need to shout a spell in order to do a spell, and if you have Silencio‘d somebody, odds are they can’t shout the spell in the way that they are required to cast a spell. Wouldn’t Silencio be one of the most effective defensive spells?

Andrew: Yeah. Well, especially amongst the kids; maybe not so much the adults, because it seems at least in Fantastic Beasts, all the adults know a lot of non-verbal magic.

Eric: Oh, that’s a good point.

Andrew: But yeah, amongst the kids? I mean, Harry could shut up Draco, and then Draco would be useless in terms of his offense.

Micah: I do like this connection you’re making, though, Eric, because didn’t we talk in a previous discussion about how Umbridge didn’t like the fact that Snape was teaching the Strengthening Solution?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: So maybe there is something to the professors doing a little bit of Defense Against the Dark Arts in their own classes.

Eric: That’s fascinating.

Laura: You think they’re meeting up away from Umbridge and being like, “Okay, this is what I’m going to do this week”? They’re coming up with lesson plans to supplement the lacking Defense Against the Dark Arts lessons?

Andrew: That all makes a lot of sense. I like this theory a lot.

Eric: But I don’t think they catch on to it necessarily.

Andrew: Who, the kids?

Eric: Harry, while he’s lesson planning, isn’t exactly like, “Ooh, this would actually be perfect, because Snape is the only person I know that doesn’t need to say a spell to cast it.”

Andrew: So despite the bad news that Umbridge is probably reading Harry’s mail, the Gryffindor Quidditch team does get approval to practice, and Angelina says she went to McGonagall and she thinks that McGonagall went to Dumbledore, and then Umbridge had to give in. So assuming this is true, how did Dumbledore argue this to Umbridge, I wonder? And where are the limits in terms of when Umbridge would give in? Because it doesn’t… I can’t picture Dumbledore going to Umbridge and Umbridge being like, “You know what? You’re right. I’m going to let them practice.”

Laura: I can see Dumbledore arguing this in a manner very similar to how he argued Harry’s innocence over the summer during his trial. Very calmly and then just asking very pointed questions, and then ultimately, when it was clear that Umbridge didn’t have a leg to stand on, being like, “Well, great. Glad to hear that Gryffindor has been reinstated. Have a great day, Dolores.”

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “I look forward to their reinstatement immediately, without delay.”

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: “Thank you, toad.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I think, though, that given Slytherin – we already know that they’ve been given permission to practice – it wouldn’t be that hard for Dumbledore to argue that… I’m guessing it’s the other three Houses at this point, but I think it would be near impossible for her not to reinstate all four House Quidditch teams. Now, whether or not she found a way to remove Harry from Gryffindor is a completely different story, because really, at the end of the day, I think all she cares about is making Harry’s life miserable, and if he wasn’t on the Quidditch team, I think Gryffindor would have already gotten approval not long after she put out that decree.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Grace: Yeah. I know we hear about the Board of Governors really early on in the series; maybe that’s just one of the things that got dropped as we went through because I know Lucius was on the Board of Governors, so I didn’t know maybe if they had a role to play in things like this. Or if there’s powerful Gryffindor people on the Board of Governors, they might have some sway.

Andrew: Yeah, you would think so. The Gryffindor Quidditch team never did anything wrong, so there was no excuse Umbridge could come up with. Her best excuse was “I hate Harry, and Harry did something bad,” but that’s not enough to cancel an entire team.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: So the conversation turns back to Dumbledore’s Army, but Hermione is having second thoughts about it now that Sirius is a big fan of this plan. She thinks that he’s been “reckless” and “living through” the trio since he’s been stuck at Grimmauld Place, so she just doesn’t trust his judgment anymore.

Eric: Ouch, right? That hurts.

Andrew: Yeah. I get it, though. I get it, though.

Laura: She’s kind of right.

Eric: Just what I love about it is that as soon as she starts second guessing, Ron and Harry are at a loss for words. They can’t figure it… they’re like, “You suggested… this was your idea in the first place!” They don’t know where to go with her to convince her that what they’re doing is right.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But I don’t know. It’s just funny how, I mean, she’s really leading the way here.

Micah: Yeah. I think unlike Ron and Harry, though, Hermione is processing the actual risk of what they’re doing and what the potential consequences are, and she’s only nervous now, and this is with good reason, because Umbridge almost caught Sirius. But there was an inherent risk of getting caught with something like Dumbledore’s Army to start, so she knew this. I just think this is her analytical mind at work, and she’s speaking out loud, and that Ron and Harry, they’re just shocked that she’s now thinking about not doing this. But I actually think it’s smart that she’s considering her options, because look at what almost just happened at the end of the last chapter.

Andrew: And the big question is still where? Where can they do this without getting caught?

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And there are no options that seem to stand out, because Umbridge will be able to get wherever they are. But yeah, the Room of Requirement will solve all of their problems. I was wondering, has anyone ever been guilty of encouraging someone to do something so you could live vicariously through them? I always think of gambling.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s a lot of fun to watch people gamble, because it’s not your money.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And then once you start playing, you’re like, “Oh, never mind.”

Eric: I have provided that service for others, where I gamble and lose money for their entertainment. Yes, I have done it. Not willingly, but I’ve done that, yeah. [laughs]

Micah: I’m not going to Vegas with you, Andrew.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: This is a red flag right away. You’re going to be on the roulette table.

Andrew: Yep. Let me watch you play.

Micah: You’re just going to want to put the little chips on the board for me and then hope for the best.

Grace: I really like this chapter – actually, this is my favorite chapter of Order of the Phoenix, so I’m really excited we’re talking about it.

Eric: Oh, wow.

Grace: But I love it mostly because of what it does for both Hermione and Harry, but specifically that part of Hermione, and it’ll come up later when we do the connections between the books. But I love that she wants to do what is right, and then it usually catches up to her, “Uh-oh,” but she continues on, and I think that really captures why she’s in Gryffindor. And I do point out later in the chapter, Harry does refrain from being reckless, so she can count that as a win. She got into his brain.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, so Harry starts feeling the burn, and not the type of burn that Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada have been feeling.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He realizes that Voldemort is angry, and it says, “Harry had not meant to say that at all… yet he knew at once it was true… Voldemort was in a towering temper,” and then Harry says to Ron, “He wants something done, and it’s not happening fast enough.” Dumbledore, in the last book, had warned Harry that he’ll be able to feel Voldemort’s angry mood, but this was the first time he realized he could feel when Voldemort was in a happy mood, too. And Harry also seems very confident in relaying Voldemort’s feelings for the first time. I mean, just the way that J.K. Rowling writes this, Harry had no doubt in his mind that Voldemort was feeling this way. So Harry is now experiencing the highs and lows of Voldemort’s life and mission, and I’m wondering if there’s other feelings he could be experiencing as well, because when else do you have certain highs? Getting back to gambling, not that I think Voldemort is gambling, or maybe when he’s having some fun with Bellatrix. I wonder if he can feel that too.

Laura: I think if that were the case, we would have seen evidence in Deathly Hallows. [laughs] Just based on Cursed Child and what we know apparently happened during that particular point in the series.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Makes you wonder.

Micah: I can’t recall, but wasn’t it strictly a movie-ism that Harry and Voldemort were feeling these emotions when the Horcruxes were being destroyed? Particularly Voldemort?

Eric: Yeah, but they are related. It’s kind of a related incident. In the books, Voldemort has been so distant from his Horcruxes for such a long time that he doesn’t feel when they’ve been destroyed. It’s in fact only after he goes and searches them all up and realizes they’ve been taken that he knows he’s in trouble.

Micah: Right.

Eric: But in the movie, as soon as one is destroyed, he screams.

Micah: Right, well, I mean, for the movie, it obviously makes sense to do that because it gives the person watching a little bit more insight into what’s going on, but… so yeah, I mean, I think maybe he’s just upset he had to practice for those couple of hours in the rain; that piece of him that’s inside of Harry is just pissed off that he’s soaking wet and exhausted.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I do think it’s important here to talk about Horcruxes, because this is one of the times in Order of the Phoenix that we could say that perhaps this connection is so strong because part of Voldemort is within Harry and that’s what is allowing them to connect with each other.

Andrew: Yeah. So Harry is sharing this information with Ron, and Ron is like, “Well, it’s time to go to Dumbledore to tell him about what you’re feeling right now.” But Harry shrugs it off, and I find this surprising, because surely Dumbledore would like to know that Voldemort isn’t happy that something’s not happening faster. This seems like very valuable information, especially when Dumbledore has a sense of what Voldemort is after already, or he knows what Voldemort is after already. So what’s going on here? Why is Harry so stubborn about this?

Eric: I think it’s just the treatment that he’s been receiving from Dumbledore, right? He’s like, “I’m not going to do him any favors. He can figure it out.” I mean, if Harry can walk into a pub and all of a sudden four different people are able to report to Dumbledore what he’s doing, Harry probably figures he’s not the only source of information for that Voldemort is frustrated, and he just… I don’t know, he just dissociates himself from being on Dumbledore’s side, which is ironic, given what he’s doing later in this chapter.

Laura: Agreed.

Grace: Yeah, I mean, Harry is conditioned to not trust adults. I mean, we see it from the first book all the way through up to here. But I specifically remember when his scar starts hurting in Goblet of Fire, he literally goes through a list in his mind of who he can talk to, and then also what they’ll say back, and he settles on Sirius instead of Dumbledore. I think that’s very telling about whether or not Harry trusts or doesn’t want to bother Dumbledore with these kinds of things.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: You would think Dumbledore might want to resolve this so that Harry does trust him more…

Eric: You would think.

Andrew: … because the information is valuable.

Eric: Yeah, you really would think, but Dumbledore has not created that environment of “Come and tell me.” Even the idea that he’d be bothering Dumbledore if he were to tell him; that’s on Dumbledore, I think, to a certain extent.

Micah: I agree with Eric.

Grace: Yeah, because I mean, he even tells Sirius later in this book about what’s going on instead of… now, if Sirius relays that to Dumbledore, it’s a different matter altogether.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: This is Dumbledore’s fault. He’s isolated Harry for the entire year thus far, even going back into the summer, and so I can’t blame Harry for not thinking that he can go and trust Dumbledore with this information, but I do think he should have spoken with somebody. Sirius is obviously not an option, but McGonagall could have been, and I think his decision not to tell any adult makes him more vulnerable to manipulation in the future.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: So in some lighter news, Dobby shows up, and he stops by to deliver Hedwig, who’s now mended thanks to Grubbly-Plank. And Dobby reveals that, as we saw in the chapter art, he’s been taking all the hats and socks that Hermione has been knitting, and it’s super adorable.

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Andrew: And Winky, unfortunately, we learn, has been drinking a lot over all these clothing drops. [laughs] Hermione’s work is causing Winky to drink; it’s just so sad. And just to hear Dobby tell the story is really entertaining as well.

Laura: It’s also interesting because Dobby points out that none of the other elves will clean the Gryffindor common room anymore because they’re offended at the clothes being left, and so it’s interesting because… we’ve talked about this before; Hermione is trying to do the right thing here, but we were questioning, is she going about it the right way?

Andrew: Yeah, and it’s backfiring badly.

Micah: With Hedwig’s arrival, I wanted to go back to something that was really at the very start of the chapter, and that is Hermione saying that she believes Umbridge is responsible for the attack on Hedwig. Now, we don’t know specifics, but if that is the case, let’s add animal cruelty to the list for Umbridge, and we can plus up her suck count at the end of this discussion.

Eric: Oh, thank gosh. I was worried we wouldn’t be able to do that this chapter.

[Andrew and Grace laugh]

Eric: But you’re right. You’re right. What a horrible way to start the chapter. You know Hermione is 100% correct on this, because she lays out… it’s pretty much an open-shut case. This is clearly where she connects the Dungbomb thing. She really is just the top witch of her age.

Grace: Yeah, I don’t know. When I read Order of the Phoenix I always do end up wondering what happened to Winky, and so I went and looked it up and saw that apparently, according to JKR, that she did participate in the Battle of Hogwarts, and that she got off the sauce, I think is how J.K. Rowling put it.

[Andrew laughs]

Grace: But I find that really interesting. I wish we had seen more of Winky later on, because she kind of gets dropped off after this book.

Andrew: And of course, I don’t think makes any appearance at all in the movies, which was a bit of a bummer.

Micah: No, and I think that was a miss, particularly with Barty Crouch, Jr. in Goblet of Fire. And then of course, we didn’t get, I don’t think, any house-elves, with the exception of Kreacher in Order of the Phoenix. I think it’s actually Neville, right, who tips off Harry about the Room of Requirement in the movie?

Andrew: Oh, yeah. But yeah, so speaking of the Room of Requirement, so Dobby is just absolutely in love with Harry. “Anything for Harry Potter. Whatever I can do to help, I’m there for you, buddy.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And so Harry asks him for a place for Dumbledore’s Army to meet and Dobby immediately thinks of the Room of Requirement, or the Come and Go Room, and I think we’ve referenced that alternate title from time to time on the show. And Dobby says that he uses this room for Winky when Winky has drunk too much, [laughs] and so they go in there and they find a little elf bed, which is just so cute to visualize, and butterbeer antidotes. They actually have places like this in Vegas – I’m bringing up gambling a lot this episode – but Vegas has hangover doctor offices where you can go and they’ll shoot you up with, I don’t know, water and some vitamins to help you recover from your hangover. I have an annual pass to one of those places…

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: But anyway, that just made me think of that. These are real things.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, reading about the “antidote” to butterbeer… like, wow, I didn’t realize butterbeer needed… I mean, I don’t know that it’s a specific… it might just be a betterment potion or a hydration potion, or treating the causes of drunkenness rather than being a specific anti-butterbeer.

Micah: Yeah, I didn’t know you could get wasted off of butterbeer.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. I didn’t think it was so strong.

Eric: Well, normally you can’t, but because Winky is smaller, it affects her more.

Andrew: Ahh. Okay, that makes sense.

Laura: Yeah, I think Harry brought this up – was it in Goblet of Fire? – and Dobby says, “‘Tis strong for a house-elf.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Grace: Yeah. I love that the Dumbledore chamberpots line from Goblet of Fire really was so important in this book; I think that’s a really funny connection to Goblet of Fire. Also, I still wonder why was Dumbledore wandering around the castle at 5:00 a.m. and didn’t know where a bathroom was?

[Andrew laughs]

Grace: But it worked out here.

Eric: Well, one thing at a time here. We’re trying to figure a lot out.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Yeah, you would think he has his own bathroom.

Grace: Right [laughs]

Eric: Exactly. Well, but that’s what makes it a little bit more obviously a clue for Harry, and seeing Harry internalize this when Dobby is telling him about the room, he’s like, “Oh, man, now I remember Dumbledore saying something about a room with chamberpots,” and so it’s almost that revelation that he has, that Dumbledore has said about this room in close proximity, kind of with a code, right? Codedly convinces Harry that this is the way beyond all other ways to go.

Grace: And it convinces Hermione, which is even more important.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Grace: This is a good, safe place.

Andrew: “Oh, Dumbledore’s idea? I’m in.”

Grace: Right.

[Grace and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, so even though Dumbledore is not speaking to Harry, Harry is not speaking to Dumbledore, there has managed to be this transmission of information between the two of them, which is really cool.

Micah: And I think it’s important that it’s laid out in this chapter that the Room of Requirement is a room for all, right? They talk about Dumbledore. They talk about Filch, right? I think. Isn’t it Fred and George who mentioned Filch? And there’s a couple of other references. Not only that, the complete contrast in what this room is used for in Order of the Phoenix versus what it’s used for in Half-Blood Prince and the fact that it’s a room right now which is for the formation of Dumbledore’s Army to fight back, yet in Half-Blood Prince, it is a way for Death Eaters to infiltrate the school. So completely different ends of the spectrum.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, it’s even more disturbing when you consider the fact that Draco Malfoy takes his cues on how to organize that based on how Dumbledore’s Army communicates with each other later on in this book.

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: Right. One wonders if this room survives the post-Harry Potter 7 world, because it does seem like a security nightmare!

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Andrew: But really, for anyone to be able to use this? That’s a problem. Especially to break into the school.

Grace: Yeah, we don’t ever find out, do we, after Book 7, whether the Fiendfyre destroyed that room completely? Or if they managed to get it back up and running.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: I would guess they get it back up and running, because that room basically purges itself. So Dumbledore’s Army unites in the Room of Requirement; everybody gets in. The room has a lot of books and other magical objects to help them in their training, right, Eric?

Eric: Yeah, it’s got some really cool… I mean, I wonder where all these books came from physically, but this seems to have pretty much everything you’d ever need. I just get giddy reading this segment of the chapter. A room that can be absolutely anything ever that you want? And the books are clearly real books; it’s not like the room is manifesting books that didn’t previously exist, but it’s pulling relevant source material. It really speaks to a sentience of Hogwarts. And I just had to laugh, because Hermione, before they get the group together, is seen reading a book called Jinxes for the Jinxed, and if you’ll recall, she earlier in this book had a huge argument with Umbridge over jinxes and counter-jinxes, and so I’m wondering if the reason she waltzed over to this particular book and started reading it, while there was still disorder and people were still arriving, was to see if she could prove her point or just pick up another book on jinxes. It’s a very clever, in my mind, very small throwback to a couple chapters ago.

Andrew: Yeah. And I was just looking it up, and we don’t know for sure if the Room of Requirement survived Book 7. Ron does wonder if it’s still there, but we don’t get an answer for sure. Time to tweet J.K. Rowling.

[Eric laughs]

Grace: Yeah, because I mean, I would assume, maybe like the Chamber of Secrets, that’s a place that was built by the founders, so I don’t know what kind of magic would go into building that space.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and I just feel like, because it’s able to transform into so many things, it should be able to survive something like what occurs in Deathly Hallows. But when they’re trying to come up with a name for Dumbledore’s Army, the group tosses around a bunch of different names, and Eric thought that we could rate these alternative names. I think that’s a fun idea. Angelina Johnson said “The Anti-Umbridge League.” I feel like that’s pushing your luck.

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Eric: A little on the nose?

Andrew: Yeah, and she’s going to get extra mad if she hears about it.

Micah: You need the acronym to go along with it as well. You need that DA, right? TAUL doesn’t work.

Laura: I mean, they could be the AUL.

Eric: AUL? The awl?

Andrew: Awl. We’re awl going to bring down Voldemort. Fred Weasley said “The Ministry of Magic Are Morons Group.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Or MMAMG.

Laura: I have to give him points for the alliteration that’s going on here.

Andrew: Okay. But also would deeply anger Umbridge, so best that they did not pick that one. Cho Chang said “The Defense Association,” which is just so boring. That sounds like an office.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Grace: Well, it’s definitely less Gryffindor than the first two.

[Andrew and Grace laugh]

Eric: It does speak for itself, though, kind of.

Grace: That’s true.

Micah: It is very Ravenclaw.

Grace: Yeah, practical.

Andrew: When I think of other names it could have been, I think of Harry Potter trivia names, like “The Group Who Shall Not Be Named.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s a good point. But it is, of course, Ginny Weasley who comes up with, “Uh, we’ll keep your DA idea, Cho, but let’s call it ‘Dumbledore’s Army.'”

Grace: Harry’s girlfriend’s got brains.

Eric: So I think we’re in agreement that the names get better as they go along. They properly narrow it down.

Andrew: Defense Association wasn’t, in my opinion.

[Grace laughs]

Eric: But do you think that that’s the second best of the proposed? Or would you rather have Ministry of Magic Are Morons Group or Anti-Umbridge League over Defense Association? If it can’t be Dumbledore’s Army.

Andrew: If there were no consequences to calling it the Anti-Umbridge League, I would definitely call it the Anti-Umbridge League.

Eric: Okay, all right.

Grace: Yeah, I really enjoy the first part of this with Hermione sticking to the rules, like “We’ve got to vote on a name; we’ve got to vote on a leader.” I think that that’s one of my favorite little Hermione pieces in this chapter.

Andrew: Yeah. And it is a great idea, because there are some members of this group who have shown signs of defection or rebellion, and by voting for the leader, there’s going to be no doubt about that, about who’s in charge.

Laura: Yeah, it is kind of a funny moment where Hermione keeps putting her hand in the air, and Harry is getting a taste of what it’s like to be Umbridge in this case.

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Laura: Like, “Okay, yes, what do you need now?”

Grace: And I think that’s such a cool little… I wrote in the doc #JusticeForProfessorHarry, but I love that little moment of Harry knowing what it feels like to be a Hogwarts professor that has Hermione in their classroom.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And that’s why he didn’t need to come back to be a teacher, because he already was a teacher at Hogwarts.

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Micah: There you go. Yeah, I thought this was great. And as you would expect, students, they don’t like the fact that they have to start with the basics, but in going through this exercise, you see that not everyone is as good at the basics as you would be led to believe, and it’s really important that they start here and they go with Expelliarmus. I thought the moment between Harry and Neville – despite the fact that it’s because Harry is distracted by Cho that Neville is able to disarm him…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but still for the confidence boost that it gives Neville, it’s so important. And I think Harry really shines through, even in this first lesson, as being a really good teacher.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And nobody likes Zacharias Smith. I bet Zacharias Smith’s own mother doesn’t even like him.

[Grace laughs]

Eric: But Fred and George jinxing him is not allowed, and Harry gives them an eye. I take back what I said about… that was very mean about saying his mother didn’t even like him.

Grace: Probably true.

Andrew: I’m with you. I don’t like his name.

Eric: [laughs] The Fred and George taking turns jinxing him and Harry just giving them an eye, and Fred being like, “Sorry, Harry, couldn’t help it,” is a very teacherly thing to do. Harry allows it. He doesn’t out them and say, “This is what was happening,” but he puts a stop to it. They understand. And Fred and George, who are older than Harry, respect him enough to knock it off then.

Grace: Yeah, I think this is one of my favorite chapters in this book because it’s one of the few times where we get to see Harry be really happy and feel like he’s got control of something. I mean, he starts off this lesson super nervous, and then by the end he feels really comfortable, and I think that’s a really cool thing to see in his character growth.

Eric: It’s kind of… you know how in the movie when Harry and Cho are under the mistletoe – I know that we’re not there yet in this part in the book – but how it just magically appears over them right away? So too in the book, Harry is trying to get some order, and he thinks, “I should have a whistle,” and he looks over on a chair, and all of a sudden there’s a whistle there, which I think is pretty much the same way. I completely envision a whistle not having been there a second before when the room first came up, but as soon as he thinks it, because he’s the one who called the room into existence, that it’ll show up that same way, which just speaks to how cool the room is.

Andrew: Yeah. And final point I’ll make on it is even though these spells are basic, and yeah, we’re getting started with simple spells because not everybody is that great at them, they’re also just building a team here. They’re getting to know each other. So I think it’s great to start at this level so they don’t have to dive in knee-deep first; they just get their toes wet.

Micah: Right. And unity is important. Obviously, we’re leaving Slytherin out of the equation here – sorry, Grace…

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Micah: … but it’s the way J.K. Rowling wrote the story. But I think it’s so important that we’re seeing all three of these Houses come together to fight for a common cause, and this is the very foundation of that.

Andrew: No House points to deal with either. This is a cool example…

Micah: Could Harry…? You made me think of that, though, earlier. Could Harry give out House points during this lesson?

Grace: Interesting.

Andrew: I don’t think he should. I brought that up because I think the beauty of Dumbledore’s Army is that they’re not against each other; they’re all in this together, so don’t throw House points in the mix because it’s just going to start dividing people up again.

Laura: Yeah, this is also… I mean, it’s a really nice parallel to the Order of the Phoenix. I mean, they are effectively mirroring what the adults are doing outside of the castle, so this is real world experience for them that’s not being hampered by these house rules that will have no practical application once they leave school.

Eric: I feel like Umbridge would want to know the source of any and all points given to Houses too.

Laura: True.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: So I mean, Harry can’t because he’s not a prefect, but if he did a House thing, it’d be like, “Wow. Weirdly, Ravenclaw is up 17 between 5:00 p.m. when classes ended yesterday and 10:00 a.m. this morning,” [laughs] so it’d be a dead giveaway what they were doing.

Micah: True.

Andrew: All right, and I think that’s the chapter.

Eric: Wow! Kind of a quick discussion.

Andrew: Streamlined. Yeah, it was a simpler chapter, I would say.

Eric: It’s just one of the best ones, where everything’s going according to… Harry is able to learn and grow and have a good time. It’s a feel-good chapter.

Grace: Yeah, it’s a small chapter, but it has mighty implications for the series, which is neat to me.

Laura: Definitely does.

Eric: Well put. Well put.

Laura: Speaking of, we still have the Umbridge Suck count ahead, as well as some connecting the threads to discuss, but before that, we need to talk about a different kind of thread.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: We’re going to hear from one of our sponsors, Third Love.

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, so the Umbridge Suck count, I believe, only grows by one today because of potentially attacking Hedwig.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Ugh, I feel like animal abuse deserves extra points.

Andrew: Oooh. How many points?

Laura: Okay, can we say two? Because she attacked Hedwig, but also Grubbly-Plank had to take important time away from her lesson planning to heal Hedwig.

Andrew: Right. Yeah.

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: Sure.

Laura: Yeah, screw Umbridge.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: And she’s probably going to dock Grubbly-Plank because she didn’t have time to prepare for her lesson, so you could add another one on for that.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Oh, but that’s just guessing now.

Micah: Here, if we want to extrapolate it all the way out, who knows what this damage could have done to Hedwig, so that in Deathly Hallows, if she could have flown better, maybe she would have avoided…

Andrew and Eric: Ohhh.

Grace: See? Yes.

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: So you’re saying if she’s flying with a limp?

Micah: I’m saying Umbridge is directly responsible for Hedwig’s death in Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: Oh my goodness. All right. Well, yeah, I can add an extra point for that. Definitely.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: All right, so that brings it up to 35.

[Everyone laughs]


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, well, we’ve got several threads to connect today. What I love about this chapter is, like we said, the discussion about it can be pretty streamlined, but there’s a lot of little things going on here that are pretty cool callbacks to Prisoner of Azkaban. So we can start with Quidditch. We are introduced to the Impervius Charm in Chapter 9 of Prisoner of Azkaban, when Hermione charms Harry’s glasses so that he can actually see while he’s flying in a blinding rainstorm when they play against Hufflepuff, and here, when the Gryffindor Quidditch team is practicing, they all use the same charm so that the rain doesn’t get in their faces and block them while they’re trying to practice, because Angelina says they’re probably going to play against Slytherin in pretty similar conditions. So I thought that was a nice little callback. Then there’s this really cool thing about Sirius in Hogwarts. So in Chapter 9 of Prisoner of Azkaban, we learn that Sirius has successfully escaped Hogwarts and evaded any kind of capture. This is after he breaks into the Gryffindor boys’ dormitory and Ron believes that Sirius is trying to stab him; really he’s trying to kill Peter Pettigrew, but everybody’s flummoxed by the fact that Sirius was able to get in undetected and get out without being captured. And here we see the trio sort of uncertain about how much Umbridge knows about how close she came to capturing Sirius, so it’s a really nice contrast here, where Sirius gets away and is pretty certainly safe in Prisoner of Azkaban, but in this book, we’re feeling a little bit unsettled thinking Umbridge may know more than what we’re hoping. Also, it’s really interesting looking back at Prisoner of Azkaban; in Chapter 21, Dumbledore tells two 13-year-olds, “Yeah, use this Time-Turner.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: “Go back in time, save Sirius, save Buckbeak.” So Dumbledore is really giving Harry and Hermione his stamp of approval to act in his stead. And then in Chapter 18 of Order of the Phoenix, the students actively take Dumbledore’s name on when they decide that they’re going to fight the power, so I thought that was a pretty good one. Then also looking at Hermione taking matters into her own hands: In Prisoner of Azkaban throughout the book, she devotes a significant amount of time to helping Hagrid prep for Buckbeak’s trial, actively trying to undermine the Ministry, effectively, and in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, we see the birth of a movement that Hermione originally inspired, again, looking to undermine the Ministry. And then, Eric, I know you’ll like this one.

Eric: Ooh!

Laura: [laughs] Third year Harry is way more prepared for Defense Against the Dark Arts than his peers two years later. This is evidenced by the fact that at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry produces a fully-formed Patronus to save himself, Sirius, and Hermione from a horde of Dementors. Meanwhile, fifth year and older students in Dumbledore’s Army can barely produce Expelliarmus.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: And that just goes to show how woefully underprepared these students are.

Micah: Yeah, that’s fair.

Laura: And then, Micah, I think you had a couple of threads to connect.

Micah: Yeah, I did. The first one is actually with the Marauder’s Map. Chapter 18 of Prisoner of Azkaban is entitled “Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs,” and in Chapter 18 of Order of the Phoenix, the Marauder’s Map plays a significant role in the safety of the Dumbledore’s Army students.

Laura: Love it.

Micah: And then Hermione in Chapter 18 of Prisoner of Azkaban – this is when they’re inside the Shrieking Shack – she has this insistence that there aren’t unregistered Animagi, and she reiterates this point during the conversation with Lupin and Sirius and others, and she still believes that the Ministry holds the absolute truth about everything. And I wanted to… I just thought that that’s a far cry from Chapter 18 of Order of the Phoenix, where she believes the Ministry is full of [censored].

[Eric and Grace laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s great.

Laura: Yeah. It’s so funny, too, because we still see evidence in this book of Hermione wanting to discount rumors. Luna says something a little bit earlier in the book about Cornelius Fudge having an army of Heliopaths, and Hermione is like, “Oh goodness, that’s just nonsense. Those aren’t real.”

[Micah laughs]

Laura: So definitely… I mean, we know that Hermione could have ended up being Sorted into Ravenclaw, and I think that this chapter evidences that. We see Hermione’s overwhelming tendencies, very Gryffindor-esque tendencies of doing what’s right and fighting the injustice that’s happening in the Ministry, but then also, sometimes she’s kind of roped in by her intellect a bit. I think sometimes her tendency to follow rules can hinder her a little bit.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, great stuff. And now it’s time for our MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: Oh boy, look out. Here it comes. Get ready for the beat drop.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: It’s about to drop.

Andrew: All right, so I’m going to give mine to Dobby for being friend to the ill, specifically Hedwig and Winky.

Laura: Aww.

Eric: I’m giving mine to Hogwarts for having just the thing to help our students practice.

Andrew: [laughs] Eric is so animated now with the music.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The music really wakes me up.

Grace: As a person who works in marketing, I have to give mine to Ginny for creating a very lucrative brand with the name Dumbledore’s Army.

Laura: Yep. I’m going to have to give mine to Harry for teaching his signature life-saving move.

Eric: Nice.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Time and time again, disarming is what saves him.

Micah: And I’ll give mine to Neville for finally being able to cast Expelliarmus and getting that huge boost of confidence that he truly needed.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: All right, and now it is time for us to rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18…

[“Hooked on a Feeling” plays]

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Okay, so obviously Voldemort is not in love with Harry, but I just thought, like, “feeling”?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I was going to say, is this the end of the chapter where Harry is just totally all about Cho?

Andrew: Oh, no. I was going for the Harry/Voldemort connection.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: Yeah, makes sense. I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “The Tower of Hats.”

[Grace and Micah laugh]

Eric: Seems like it would be…

Grace: Goes with the art for the chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Grace: I had two choices, one obvious, which is “The Room of Requirement,” or the one that I relate more to: “Teaching at Hogwarts: Fake It Till You Make It.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “Defense Against the Dull Arts.”

Micah: I see what you did there.

Eric: Nice.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And finally, I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18, “House-Elf Hangovers.”

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, email it on in to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can record a voice memo on your phone and send it to the same address. Just try to record in a quiet place and keep your message to no longer than 60 seconds.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Quizzitch, and as I understand it, we have some music now for this as well.

Eric: That is right.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Andrew: Whoa!

Eric: Right? Last week’s Quizzitch question: What spell does Gryffindor use to help them practice at Quidditch? The answer, of course, is the Impervius Charm. Congratulations to everyone who submitted the correct answer, including Ryan Nolan, Jim Bob Who, Pravi Singh, Julian S., Rich T. Chicken, Marie Lipocky, The Cat’s Pajamas, Real Slim Brady, Jason King, Michael Not Eric, Hannah E., and Robbie S. And next week’s Quizzitch question: What does Hermione use to bewitch the golden coins for Dumbledore’s Army members? Please submit your correct answer to us on Twitter over at @MuggleCast, hashtag Quizzitch. Thanks for playing.

Andrew: And be sure to also follow us on Facebook and Instagram; we are also MuggleCast there. You will stay abreast of the latest Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts news. Hopefully we’ll be getting some Fantastic Beasts news soon as well. But Grace, thanks for coming on the show today. It was great having you on.

Grace: Thanks. This has been 12-year-old me’s dream.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Awesome, and hopefully current Grace’s dream as well.

Grace: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Well, that was boring, but at least I played off my 12-year-old self’s wildest fantasies.”

Andrew: Sometimes people are like, “Oh yeah, I used to listen to the show,” and I’m like, “Used to? We’re still doing it!”

Grace: Oh, yeah. 15 years, almost.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, 15 years this August. Thank you to everybody who supports us on Patreon. If you aren’t a patron yet, we would love if you’d consider doing so. By pledging at the $5 level or higher, you will be eligible for our physical gift, which we should be announcing in the next month or two; we’re just finalizing the details there. It’s going to be really good. Even though you won’t be getting our physical gift right away, you will have access to lots of bonus material, including bonus MuggleCast. You’ll be able to hop into our livestream so you can hear us recording and unintentionally revealing the physical gift. [laughs] That’s the beauty of the livestream; it’s just this unfiltered look at the show. And then, of course, if you pledge at the Slug Club level, you will have the opportunity to co-host MuggleCast one day, just like Grace did today. So thank you to everybody who supports us; we truly could not do this without you, so we really appreciate your support. And even if you don’t support us on Patreon, you are a listener, obviously. Make sure you are subscribed to the show. Sometimes people hear this word “subscribe” and they think it means you have to pay. You can subscribe for free through your favorite podcasting app, so make sure you do that, and you will stay up to date on the latest episodes of MuggleCast. And also follow us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. All right, I think that’s it. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Grace: And I’m Grace.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Grace and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #453

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #453, 2 Fast, 2 Illustrated (OOTP 17, Educational Decree Number 24)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast Episode 453. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four.” We also have a couple of voice calls, and a new illustrated edition series is in the works?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I can’t wait to talk about that, but first, we wanted to start by bringing up an update on the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case. We’ve gotten a lot of feedback, so we wanted to address that right here at the start of the show. Recently there was a new tape that surfaced in which Amber Heard is heard verbally abusing Depp, and it’s pretty brutal. She says no one would believe that he’s a victim and a bunch of other things, and it reminds us that Johnny Depp is not the only one at fault in this case.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, we had some feedback that we had been less than kind regarding Depp, and I myself was pointed to a past episode where I flat-out called Depp a wife abuser. That case isn’t finished, and I did not use “alleged,” and I was not… I mean, I just wasn’t thinking in the moment. But I would like to retract that statement in light of the latest tape, and you know what? That’s fine. I’ll just admit my mistake. I mean, I was careless. We weren’t… in the moment there was a lot going on with that controversy when he was cast, when Yates and Rowling doubled down on him, and I think that may have been a heat of the moment thing, but I’m capable of admitting when I was wrong.

Laura: Of course, yeah. The way that I feel about this is it’s an ongoing case, and we’re receiving new information – in the last few days, it feels like – pretty frequently, and it simultaneously clarifies, but further muddies the waters, because to me now it’s clear more than ever that this was most likely a very toxic relationship that we don’t have all the information on. So I would say for ourselves as individuals, but also for our fandom, it’s a good lesson in approaching these kinds of stories with a level of nuance and understanding that we don’t have all the details and just carrying that lesson forward, because undoubtedly there will be more that comes out of this case in the weeks and months ahead.

Micah: Yeah, I agree with what Laura said. I think that given that this is an ongoing legal battle, that there’s going to be information that is going to be released in the coming months, maybe even the coming years, strategically, and that’s just the way that things tend to go, so that it shows one side in a certain light and the other side in another light. And as Laura also pointed out, this appears to be a toxic relationship on both sides, and we’re not inside these people’s home. We don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. And I think what happened here is that in this day and age, there’s an incessant need to respond to something in the moment, and a lot of times when that happens, you don’t have all the information, and I have no problem, much like Eric said, admitting when you’re wrong, but I think at the same time, this is a multi-layered issue that has a lot of different components at work, and we need to see how it plays out over the course of the next several months. And part of what I look back on is what would have happened if I said that I was supportive of Johnny Depp and actually believed his side of the story back in 2017? Imagine the response that we would have gotten at this show. It just goes to show you based on the information, people’s perspectives change, and certainly the Internet doesn’t help that.

Eric: I think always we just want to be true to our own opinions. We got into a conversation recently over on Twitter, but I mean, MuggleCast is our opinions. MuggleCast is our opinions in a moment at a moment’s time. It’s kind of like a time capsule, and I have had my share of bad opinions in the past. MuggleCast, unfortunately – still being on the air – all the episodes on the feed is now a catalog of previous bad opinions that we have all held, so there’s just that. All we can do is change moving forward.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. And moving forward, I think we will strive to be as fair as possible to both sides as we should have been since the beginning. And I have said this before: I believe that both sides here are problematic. This was just a bad relationship, and these people both have issues that they’re working through, and as has been said a couple minutes ago, we’ll see how this case develops. Things could change over time. We don’t know. But for now, we’re going to try to be more fair, and we apologize to anybody who may have been offended by what we had to say or feels like we haven’t been treating this case fairly. And some people might be asking, “Well, why are you bringing this up? Who cares?” Well, Johnny Depp is still going to be in three more Fantastic Beasts movies, presumably, and it’s important that we represent him accurately on this show.

Eric: Yeah, and listening to that tape, my heart broke for him, and that’s 100% true, because he is clearly… I mean, Amber Heard is calling him a baby; she’s saying, “People won’t believe you,” and just… I cannot empathize enough with the courage that it took to record this, right? Because as Johnny Depp, one of the biggest movie stars in the world, you’ve got this wife who’s verbally assaulting you, who is physically assaulting you, admitting proudly of physically assaulting you, and you have to sneakily record a tape just so that people will believe your side. Unfortunately, Amber Heard’s decision and her choices in this situation have led to an issue where I think fewer victims coming forward will be believed. She’s contributing not just to her own people’s perception of her, but she’s made it worse for victims of spousal and domestic abuse moving forward, and it just… it’s a huge, huge issue with long-ranging implications.

Micah: Yeah, and I think that we reacted in the way that most people do and should, and that is you believe the victim because you don’t want to put them in a position – or anybody else that may be around you that went through something similar – to make them feel uncomfortable or make them feel like they can’t come forward if a situation like that has happened to them. And so this new information is something that we need to take seriously, though, and realize that we misstepped several years ago and that we will be a lot more balanced moving forward.

Andrew: All right, so changing gears now. On a much brighter note, a new edition of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone is arriving this October, October 20, 2020. It is by MinaLima, the graphic artists behind the Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts film series. This came as a surprise. For starters, MinaLima has never been involved with the books as far as I know, not this deeply, anyway. I mean, they designed the covers for the Fantastic Beasts screenplays that were published with each movie. But they illustrated the entire first Harry Potter book; this edition includes full color illustrations on nearly every page, and eight interactive special paper craft features that will make readers feel like they’re headed to Hogwarts themselves. They’ll have the opportunity to open an elaborately folded Hogwarts letter and Diagon Alley shopping list, reveal the magical entryway to Diagon Alley, open a die-cut fold-out Hogwarts Castle, and make a feast appear in the Great Hall, amongst other features. So this is cool. The cover looks beautiful. My concern is… why is this being published in the middle of another illustrated edition series? That’s the only part of this that feels strange to me.

Eric: [laughs] What do we call this? That’s my thing. How do we just refer to this? The illustrated…?

Andrew: The MinaLima edition, I suppose.

Eric: Oh, okay, because I was like, “Illustrated edition 2? Illustrated…”

Andrew: Illustrated plus.

Eric: 2 Sorcerer’s 2 Furious? What are we calling it here?

Laura: [laughs] Eric, to your question about “What do we call this?”, I would say capitalism.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Okay, okay. But to that point, I have Peter Pan by MinaLima, and it is amazing. In fact, MinaLima have been doing these not related to Harry Potter fairy tale books. They’ve taken popular fairy tales – they’ve also done, I think, Alice in Wonderland; there’s a version of their work – and those are, I think, a great indicator of what we can see and expect to see inside this Harry book. They have those fold-out pages, like you were saying, Andrew, but it’s really ornate, and it’s amazing.

Micah: I just hope that this is something that will continue and not something that gets cut off right at Sorcerer’s Stone, because I feel like there’s been other editions that have been created where they’ve tried it out and then they haven’t moved forward with it. I think… didn’t Sorcerer’s Stone do a 10th anniversary edition or a 20th anniversary edition?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: But then they didn’t follow through with Chamber of Secrets and Prisoner of Azkaban and on and on. I do love the art. I mean, you’re looking at the cover here, the way that they have all of the Hogwarts House symbols drawn in all four corners. Not sure… looks like the trio got left hanging because there are no boats in front of them to get across the lake there.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “So how do we cross?”

Eric: You’ll recall that happens in the book? This is an alternate universe Sorcerer’s Stone.

Micah: But I will say… oh, go ahead, Laura.

Laura: I was just going to say, take my money. I’ll buy this.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: That was all.

Eric: Well, to that point, I hope that the illustrated versions are going okay. I mean, I hope that Jim Kay is able to… maybe with the release of these books, we can handle… the consumer or the market will allow him the time that he needs to complete at least book one of Order of the Phoenix illustrated.

Andrew: Oh, Eric.

Micah: Yeah, they’re giving him a break. They’re giving him a little bit of a respite. He can work on Order of the Phoenix and MinaLima can put out this book in the meantime.

Andrew: No, but we also have Quidditch Through the Ages illustrated coming out this October, don’t we? Or something illustrated is coming out this fall.

Eric: Yeah, they can taper it. They can do… I mean, I expect maybe at least the first two of the MinaLima will be out by the time Jim Kay is able to complete…

Andrew: These books are bigger. He needs more time to create these books; I think it’s that simple. I mean, he’s been blogging on his site about how Order of the Phoenix is going. Micah, you asked if this is going to be a series. I think it is. The Rowling Library pointed out that on the spine of this book, it does say “Year 1.” I guess what surprises me most about this is I expected Jim Kay’s illustrated books to be the definitive illustrated editions. Like, that was it. Because this is obviously a huge project, and now MinaLima is taking on the task. EW notes that nearly every page is going to have an illustration, so… they’re going to keep up this pace for the other six books? Wow, how do they even have time for these Fantastic Beasts movies? Do they have some ghost illustrators? Because this seems like a lot of work they’re getting involved with.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I wonder, though, if they had done this work over the last couple of years…

Andrew: Probably.

Micah: … or just as the Harry Potter films were being… they are a huge part of the success of the Harry Potter film franchise, and now, as you mentioned, are working on Fantastic Beasts as well. We did reach out to them, so we’ll see if they’re able to join us on an upcoming episode. We’ve met them a couple of times over the years; they’re just two great people, and would love to talk to them about this new illustrated edition. But like you said, yeah, it seems like it’s going to be a series, because they even announced this on Good Morning America.

Andrew: Big deal.

Micah: So they’re not holding back on this, yeah.

Andrew: I saw somebody in the Entertainment Weekly comments say it would have been great if they use the British title for this book. Why can’t Philosopher’s Stone be published in America just once, just once, with all these editions?

Micah: Are they going to do that in the UK, though? Or this is just US publication?

Andrew: No, this is US and UK. I don’t… so I love this; I will at least page through it. I’m not sure I’ll collect the whole series. I’m good with having one illustrated edition series on my bookshelf.

Eric: Well, in that case, why would they undercut their sales?

Andrew: Right?

Eric: By releasing this now?

Andrew: Who needs two illustrated edition series? I’m ruining the chances of our interview, Micah. I’m sorry.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say, they’re not going to come on.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Again, you guys… look, pick up one of the books that they’ve done that’s the fairy tale thing. Peter Pan I can’t recommend highly enough. It’s really good.

Andrew: Yeah. And I have some of their artwork, and I have it proudly on my wall. I just love what they do. I’ll probably get this first one just because it’s the first, and then the others, we’ll see. We’ll see.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for some Muggle Mail now. We got a couple of calls. First, we got some great feedback about Harry deserving an O for battling Dementors in Prisoner of Azkaban.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hello, MuggleCast hosts. Happy Tuesday. I’ve just finished listening to Essence of Goat, where you did a superb job discussing the Hog’s Head chapter. It was truly stellar. I have a disagreement, though. In rating Harry’s impressive feats, Andrew and Eric give Harry saving himself, Sirius, and Hermione from the Dementors in Book 3 a mere Acceptable. I am with Laura that this deserves an Outstanding. As I’m sure we all know, Dementors are a fictional manifestation of depression. Eric points out that it is more impressive when he fends off the Dementors at the beginning of Book 5, because that’s when he is feeling down and drained. While Harry is in a less dire state mental health-wise in Book 3, the Dementors don’t care. They spread their feelings of despair and hopelessness anyway, because it’s what they do. In the first Dementor attack right after Lupin has transformed, Harry is hearing his mother die, he’s seeing Sirius and Hermione passing out in front of him, and he’s just witnessed Pettigrew get away. He’s had a very stressful day, and now all these bad things are piling up, and yet he still manages to create some wispy attempts at a Patronus, and if I recall correctly, Hermione can’t produce anything. So here’s Harry, age 13, making a strong initial attempt to keep the Dementors at bay. And in reality, I would compare this to a person with clinical depression just getting out of bed in the morning. And I have clinical depression, and despite a cocktail of therapy, medication, and social support, I still have days where I can’t get up. The equivalent of producing a Patronus in that moment for me would be suddenly springing out of bed, taking a shower, packing my lunch for the day, and heading out the door whistling, even though I can’t whistle. Even Harry’s wispy Patronus attempts would be like me getting up, hopping into some sweatpants, and walking out the door with greasy hair and no food for the day. And to some that’s the bare minimum, and there are days when I can’t do that. Harry is 13, and he’s hearing his mother dying, and he’s seeing Sirius and Hermione on the ground about to be soul sucked, and still he manages to get some Patronus mist going. Later, after the Time-Turner shenanigans, Eric says the happy thought is that Harry knows he has already done it before, and so it is cheap for him to be saying, ‘I have self-confidence, boom.’ I don’t think it’s cheap at all for him to be inspired by knowing that he’s done it before. I have days when I can’t get out of bed, and I think, ‘I can do this. I’ve done it so many times before.’ And sometimes it works, but a lot of the time it doesn’t. In fact, like, 97% of the time it doesn’t. So in this first instance, Harry is feeling all the symptoms of depression, and still is able to put up a fight. In the second instance he sees he was able to do it before, and that self-confidence is what allows him to create a full Patronus. I think both moments are highly commendable and deserve an O for Outstanding. Thank you.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: That was extremely well said, and thank you for your honesty.

Laura: Yeah, that was an outstanding voicemail.

Eric: I’m amending my rating.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: You’re retracting your previous grade.

Eric: Yeah, I’m going to give it… for the reasons that this caller said, I’m going to move it from Acceptable to Outstanding. And yeah, I think the points were great.

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: It just takes… it’s always useful to remember that Dementors are kind of an allegory, or a direct allegory, for depression. And for somebody to be so vulnerable as to call in and say, “Hey, I have depression; here’s what it’s actually like,” just reminds us that these books… that Harry’s struggle was, in fact, real. And not cheap, as I stated.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And further proof that Laura is always right.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: That’s dangerous.

Laura: No, I have my share of wrongness over the last 15 years.

Andrew: “Share of wrongness.”

Laura: No, remember when I was adamant…? I was like, “The final battle will not take place at Hogwarts; that would be so stupid,” and then it did.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Oh, well, you were just speculating. We were all speculating.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: You’re not a Seer. We have one other great message here.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi guys, Karishma here. So as we’re talking about the introduction of Dumbledore’s Army and introducing the concept of Harry as a mentor and guide, versus similar Defense Against the Dark Arts, the thought of Harry’s career really comes to my mind. We know down the line Harry becomes an Auror. I can understand, on one hand, the restlessness that Harry must have felt after the war was over, and how that restlessness may only have been temporarily treated by continuing to put himself in dangerous situations as an Auror would. But there is another part of me that thinks that Harry would have taken time off and come back years later to be a professor, if not at Hogwarts than another wizarding school. I recently read a fanfiction that Harry spent a few years fixing up Grimmauld Place and making it a summer school or even permanent residence for those kids who didn’t have a safe home or family. I just see Harry wanting to have a quiet life and helping kids have the childhood that he never could. What are your guys’s thoughts on this? Do you think that it was realistic for J.K. Rowling to make Harry an Auror, or do you think it would have been more in his character to pick a different career path after some maturity? I can’t wait to hear what you guys have to say. Bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Laura: Do we think that the depiction of Harry in the Cursed Child is sort of reflective of how Harry’s life turned out as a result of him becoming an Auror and maybe not pursuing a vocation that was more in line with like this listener suggested? Because clearly Harry has some issues in Cursed Child.

Micah: Daddy issues.

Andrew: I think he would have had some issues anyway because Albus is challenging him in ways I don’t think he was expecting. But I do like this idea that maybe instead of becoming an Auror, Harry would teach students or give them a life that he wishes that he had, because an Auror is really continuing to deal with the action that he was dealing with in the first seven books. Of course, they’re not as big of issues to deal with. But I don’t know. I like this idea. Harry deserved a quiet life after everything that happened in the first seven books. In the seven books.

Micah: I could see him becoming more of a consultant to the Ministry, as opposed to being an Auror. I know that was always his ambition, but when you kind of reach peak level at 17 and defeat Voldemort…

Andrew: [laughs] Right, what’s next?

Micah: … there’s really nowhere else to go in your career as an Auror. So he should just have been given some sort of honorary recognition and allowed to pursue another career. I think, to the point that gets raised, he is a good teacher, and Defense Against the Dark Arts is his bread and butter. And I think it would have been a nice tribute, really, to Lupin, who is the one who really builds the foundation for him in Defense Against the Dark Arts, to go and to teach at Hogwarts.

Eric: Yeah, and there’s just in general… it’s kind of a blind spot of the series, is career paths. They make a big deal about giving career advice to Harry, but he’s set in his way, and we don’t really learn is there a wizarding secondary school? Meaning college, or tertiary education, I guess you’d call it. But what’s out there? We don’t know. It’s a huge, huge, huge, wide world. We don’t really know what else Harry could have done.

Micah: It’s also surprising to me that Harry would want to go and work for the Ministry after everything it has put him through in his childhood.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, maybe he wants to get involved so the Ministry doesn’t ever go back to how they were in his first seven years.

Micah: But you’ve got Hermione for that. She’s Minister.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I kind of wish Harry went back to Hogwarts. That would have been cool. Plus, yeah, to the caller’s point, he just did not get the experience that most students did; he was distracted by everything else going on. So it would have been nice to help out these fellow kids and give them…

Micah: Maybe there’s too much trauma there, everything that he’s been through.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s a good point.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, also, he didn’t actually graduate, did he? So could he even teach at Hogwarts?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Fair point.

Laura: Yeah, they’re like, “You get an honorary diploma because you vanquished the Dark Lord. Thank you.”

Andrew: I’m sure they would grant an exception. Okay, so before we get to Chapter by Chapter, MuggleCast has launched a listener survey so we can learn what you do and don’t like about the show. This will help us improve the podcast and plan for the future. It should only take you a couple of minutes to complete; look for a link on our social media channels or check out the show notes of this episode for the link. Thank you in advance. It is a big help, so we appreciate you taking a couple of minutes to do this for us. And thank you to everybody who already filled it out. We’ve gotten lots of great feedback; we’re going to sort through it all in a meeting in the weeks ahead and figure out the path forward for MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. We are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four,” and we will start, as always, with our Seven Word Summary. However, this time we have a music timer, y’all.

Laura: Oh no.

Andrew: So we have to complete this in about 34 seconds.

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: And how this is going to work each week is the first person is going to say their word, and then the timer is going to start. Micah picked this music, so if you don’t like it, blame him.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Here we go. Sirius…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: … is…

Eric: … in…

Micah: … trouble…

Andrew: … with…

Laura: … Umbridge… [laughs]

Eric: How many seconds do we have left?

Andrew: 20.

Eric: Awesome. Okay, great.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, what about “Umbridge’s”?

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: Well, you just wasted another five.

Eric: See, if you had said Dolores…

Andrew: Hurry!

Micah: Finish, come on.

Eric: … reach.

Laura: There we go.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: If you had said Dolores, I would have made it Dolores apostrophe. That would have been clever.

Andrew: This is much more fun with music.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, it’s very stressful.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I love how we’re all yelling at Eric to finish up. [laughs]

Eric: I’m like, “How much is left? Good.” So “Sirius is in trouble with Umbridge’s reach.”


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Before we get to Sirius, though, I really love that this chapter opened with Harry feeling happy, something we don’t get to see him experience much, especially in this book…

Laura: Yep.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … because he has a purpose now. He’s really liking his decision to pursue Dumbledore’s Army, and nothing can get in his way now.

Micah: Yeah, I thought you were going to maybe play a little Pharrell. There’d be some Minions jumping around. No?

Andrew: [singing] “Celebrate good times, four or five pages!”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, more like two. Or one and a half, because by the time Harry makes his way down to the common room, he finds out that Professor Umbridge has completely covered the board there with the news of her new Educational Decree. And I wanted to just talk a little bit about the symbolism of the fact that this piece of parchment is literally covering all the other cool stuff that is on the board, and she is slowly but surely taking over at Hogwarts.

Eric: That’s cool.

Andrew: It makes you re-appreciate the good old days when they had all these cool activities to participate in – Quidditch they could play, these clubs – and now it’s being taken away, so maybe they are going to re-appreciate and take it all less for granted.

Eric: Yeah, that notice board, I take that for granted all the time, but it was one of the coolest areas of… I think it was the Chamber of Secrets game, because you could interact with it, and there would be new tasks and to-do list things.

Andrew: Oh, that’s clever.

Eric: Yeah, all that kind of stuff. It’s just so cool because in the book she goes through what’s on there, and it’s just like Micah was saying; it’s stuff for the Gobstones Club, it’s stuff for… people are selling books, secondhand books to each other… although it’s well past the start of the year, so I hope they’re not… people really need some books to start new classes. I wonder if students drop classes middle of the year. You never really hear that happening, but presumably they could do that?

Laura: Well, Hermione does it in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Micah: Well, she’s taking a few others, so it’s okay.

Andrew: She’s not selling her books, though. She keeps all of her books.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: She’s not one to part with it.

Micah: She’s got a secret stash of Divination textbooks that she doesn’t tell anybody about.

Eric: [laughs] She’s read them all back to front and knows everything she needs to know.

Micah: So the immediate reaction from Harry is, “Oh shit, we got found out,” because the Educational Decree is tied directly to student organizations, societies, teams, groups, and clubs. This whole thing, by the way, which we’ll read, sounds like it was written by Percy, if I had to guess.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But the Decree starts out by saying, “All student organizations, societies, teams, groups, and clubs are henceforth disbanded. An organization, society, team, group, or club is hereby defined as a regular meeting of three or more students. Permission to re-form may be sought from the High Inquisitor (Professor Umbridge). No student organization, society, team, group, or club may exist without the knowledge and approval of the High Inquisitor. Any student found to have formed, or to belong to, an organization, society, team, group, or club that has not been approved by the High Inquisitor will be expelled. The above is in accordance with Educational Decree Number 24.”

Andrew: Expelling seems so harsh. Now, okay, for Dumbledore’s Army, yes, I get it, because you’re going against Umbridge’s wishes. But to expel a student over Gobstones seems extremely harsh.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You just wonder, did Dumbledore want to step in on a Decree like this? I mean, he must have.

Eric: It’s so transparent to threaten with expulsion. That’s such a… what’s the word? It’s not measurable; it’s just so… it’s such an extreme…

Andrew: Over the line?

Eric: Yeah, it’s such an extreme punishment that clearly… it’s just such a transparent way of Umbridge seizing control. And it’s not just like, “In order for groups to exist, you’ve got to get approved. Here’s a deadline to get approved by.” No, it’s “Everything has to stop right now and cannot continue until approved.” It’s a great… it’s just… everything is shut down.

Micah: But what’s the reasoning, though? We know that she wants to have control over all of the students and over all non-class activity, and this allows her to do that. But is this because she knew about the meeting that took place at the Hog’s Head? Or was this something maybe she was already thinking about, and the first weekend visit to Hogsmeade allowed her to do that? She saw too many things going on that she just didn’t care for. We know she’s a control freak.

Eric: Well, Andrew, you said that Willy Widdershins tells Umbridge later? You did some research on that?

Andrew: Yeah, she finds out through this Willy Widdershins guy, just somebody you hear about once and then never again, evidently.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He was arrested by the Ministry of Magic for enchanting the regurgitating toilets, which are brought up earlier in this book. But then he made a deal with the Ministry that if he spied on Harry Potter and his friends, they would let him go.

Eric: Oh my God, so he’s also following Harry in addition to Dung?

Andrew: Yeah, multiple people.

Eric: [sighs] So yeah, it just seems too coincidental for Umbridge. Although I think she probably was planning something similar to this, this sealed the deal and made it… this needed to be Educational Decree 24, not 25/26/31, whatever.

Micah: Yeah. One other thing that I thought about, though, was doesn’t this seem like something that you could complain to your Head of House about, or to your parents about? Particularly the Heads of House, because if you have an established club that you’ve been running already for several months at Hogwarts, why should you have that taken away from you?

Eric: Well, their hands are tied, right? Because there’s this new role in High Inquisitor that is allowing Umbridge to insert herself in all these goings-on. So even if a club is the best club of all time for morale and is doing really wonderful things, the High Inquisitor has her own set of goals that she is presumably fairly, and with a balanced mind, rating… basically the High Inquisitor is able to determine the educational value of every gathering and put the ax on it if she doesn’t deem it to be appropriate. It’s just an insane power grab.

Laura: Yeah, I also wonder, for parents and people who are not immediately involved in the daily goings-on at Hogwarts, how much they would even know about this, to what extent they would be aware. It’s not like the wizarding world has 24-hour cable news where everybody’s constantly inundated with the latest outrage. So I think the biggest dose of news these parents could get is their kid writing a letter to them being like, “Umbridge banned Gobstones Club; she’s such a B.”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. David, who’s listening live, also brings up a good point. He says, “So by definition, does the trio count as a society, team, group, club? Because in this Decree, she says three or more.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s awesome.

Andrew: Yeah. Three does seem like a low number. I mean, there are groups of three. I mean, we would be banned. We’re a club.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: “No podcasting.”

Laura: Oh, Umbridge would absolutely hate us.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God, Umbridge really could have gone all the way and banned the trio. Wow.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. They meet regularly.

Micah: Well, the staircase in the girls dormitory tries to disband them.

Eric: I would guess that maybe the common rooms are exempt, because immediately you have a group larger than three at all times in the Gryffindor common room, and you don’t need permission to… that’s your common space.

Micah: That’s interesting.

Eric: But it’s not all Gryffindors in Dumbledore’s Army, and so that’s why Harry still has this problem now, and it’s even harder for him to figure out where they’re going to meet.

Laura: I also think this just goes to show how hampered Umbridge is by rules. She doesn’t have any real deep human friendships with anyone, I mean, so she can’t conceive of the fact that technically, the trio could fall under this ban, because she doesn’t have any friends.

Andrew: [laughs] “You can be friends with more than one person and hang out with them simultaneously? Ew!”

Laura: Right.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Or like, “You can hang out with people just because you want to, not because you have some common purpose you’re working towards? Wow.”

Andrew: “Ew!”

Eric: Well, we know Umbridge’s best friend is Cornelius, and when your friend’s the Minister of Magic, who needs any others?

Micah: Laura, one other thing I wanted to ask you about, though – and we’ll probably talk a little bit more about this later on in the chapter – but this really lends to Hogwarts becoming more and more of a police state, where now Umbridge is in control of student activity and what they are and are not allowed to do. She has started to really keep track of communication into and out of the school; we’ll see that with Hedwig a little bit later on in the chapter, but then also with Sirius, where she’s controlling the Floo Network. So when you’re in a situation where student activity and communication into and out of Hogwarts are being controlled by this one person, that was the first thing that came to my mind.

Laura: Yeah, and there are numerous historical examples of this happening. I mean, any time a regime is trying to get its population into lockstep and to be compliant, the first thing they go after are the educational institutions, every single time, so this is just another example of that. I think probably the biggest example we can point to is educational institutions during World War II, the Nazi era. It was incredibly common for the Nazi party to go after these “subversive” mindsets of students at colleges and universities in order to quash the notion that what was going on was wrong.

Micah: Absolutely. And even the Educational Decrees themselves have some… they feel like they’re very much Nazi Germany-esque in terms of telling people what they are and are not allowed to do.

Laura: Oh, yeah, completely.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: All that said, couldn’t Umbridge have just received a list of existing clubs and just basically gone through…?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She’s evaluating all the teachers; she should have gone through, checked off Gobstones, checked off Slytherin Quidditch team… why does everybody have to resubmit?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Well, this is one of those things that she clearly just… she knows about Harry meeting a bunch of people in a group, trying to start something. This is her way of setting a rule for everybody, which is really a rule that’s specifically about Harry, right?

Andrew: And maybe it’s to quash potential future clubs. Maybe she fears that Harry isn’t the only one who’s going to come up with an idea like this.

Micah: It’s a fair point.

Andrew: Because you’re right, Umbridge already knows about the club, so why does she have to force everybody to come in and apply, so to speak, for their clubs? She’s just doing it to warn people, “Don’t do what Harry did.”

Eric: Right.

Micah: And you can imagine that this moment when Harry reads the Educational Decree, it’s one of those moments probably where your insides just freeze up because you feel like you’ve been found out, or clearly Umbridge has knowledge of what they’re up to. Maybe she doesn’t know the specifics, but she knows that something is in the works. And the first thought by Harry and Ron is to go run up and talk with Hermione, and we get one of really the more comical moments of the chapter. And I think something that we as readers probably had been wondering for a while; I’m not sure if this ever comes up in some of the other books, but when they try and go up into the girls’ dormitory, doesn’t go so well for them.

Andrew: No, it turns into a slide. You’ve been wondering about this? I don’t really wonder about it much.

Micah: No, no, no, back in the day.

Andrew: Oh.

Micah: No, because there were moments where Hermione would be in the boys’ dormitory with Harry and Ron, but I don’t think we ever saw…

Andrew: A boy run up, yeah.

Micah: … another student, a boy try and get into the girls’ dormitory.

Andrew: Yeah, it was funny. It was classic J.K. Rowling and classic Hogwarts that something this goofy would happen, that the stairs are enchanted so a boy runs up and then it turns into a slide. I like it. I mean, this is something that could be great in the Muggle world. And then it got me thinking, how could we actually have this type of magic? I think it would be possible, if our phones know our gender and then we’re banning this gender from entering doors and cars and clubs. [laughs] We’d be able to easily prevent people we don’t want from coming into spaces that we’re in.

Eric: I always forget what chapter this is in where Ron tries to go up and gets shut down, because it’s obviously not the point of the chapter or whatever; it’s one of those throwaway very humor moments. But these two girls slide down right after Ron and are like, “Ooh, who tried to get up?” [laughs]

Andrew: I kind of take it that J.K. Rowling wanted to put this in somewhere for a while, but just didn’t have a space for it, because it seems like something that Ron would have known about prior to this scene. You still see the foot of the staircase, and surely somebody has accidentally tried to climb it from time to time.

Eric: Yeah, I was going to say, they’re in their fifth year; they’ve never seen this happen?

Andrew: Or heard about it.

Eric: Yeah, or heard about it. I mean, but only Hermione has read Hogwarts: A History, I think. [laughs] Because she comes down and she’s like, “Yeah, Hogwarts: A History says the founders are just very old-fashioned, and they thought that boys were less trustworthy than girls.” I wonder what would have given them that idea. I wonder if that’s a subject they all agreed on or something. I don’t know.

Andrew: Well, I mean, the founders were right; that’s something definitely that boys would do more than girls.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Even today. Hermione calls it outdated, but even today.

Micah: I’m sure Fred and George have made a few attempts. So to your point of how is it possible that… and it could have just been a slip of the mind. It’s interesting that J.K. Rowling explains it that way, as if Ron and Harry didn’t know this.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: But I would hope that five years into school there, they would know that rule, and it was more of just… slipped Ron’s mind in the moment; he was just looking to get to Hermione.

Eric: Well, and it’s cute that he sees something and is like, “Hermione needs to know,” and he runs up to go tell her.

Andrew: Also, there’s ways around this. I mean, you can take a broom up the stairs. You can take some… add some suction cups to your feet and walk up that way.

Eric: Oh my God.

Micah: How does it tell? How do we think it knows?

Laura: I think what the founders were underestimating here is that hormones find a way.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, the boys would just wait at the end of the staircase for the girl they, I don’t know, have a crush on to come on down and see them.

Eric: Well, at least Harry is able to get his mind cleared a little bit, because he is worried about having been found out and he says, “What if somebody told on us?” Or Ron says that, and Hermione says, “No, no, I put a jinx on the paper.” And this, to me, is a show of how devious Hermione is, because if you go back to the last chapter, she tells everyone, “Hey, there’s this thing; I kind of want you to sign it, and I feel like maybe we shouldn’t talk about this to other people, whatever.” Everybody signs it, but now we find out that she jinxed it, and if anybody does reveal, or if anybody went telling Umbridge, they would be faced with what we eventually know happens, a condition that makes Eloise Midgen’s acne look like a few spots.

Micah: Poor Eloise.

Eric: Just like, man, Hermione flat out… I’m not 100% okay with what Hermione did.

Micah: She’s savage.

Andrew: Well, would there have been harm to telling everybody that, “Hey, if you tell, this is what’s going to happen to you”? I don’t think there would have been.

Eric: Fewer people would have signed.

Andrew: Well, but that’s okay.

Micah: Tell them afterwards. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I don’t know. It is underhanded for her not to be… she’s real shady about it. Hermione is not often shady, but she’s really shady in that moment.

Micah: Well, I think she realizes the importance of this particular moment, and it goes under the radar for good reason. And one of the things that I think that could have been problematic for Dumbledore’s Army was how other students react to having read the Educational Decree, and then in the Great Hall later on that morning, they’re all trying to come over and talk with Harry, Ron, and Hermione, and Hermione rightly is telling them, “Stay away. If you come and talk to us and we’re all congregating, that’s going to be a really big hat tip to Umbridge as to the fact that something is going on.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Let’s go to History of Magic. A great class. Always energetic.

Andrew: I’m taking a nap.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Go ahead, Andrew.

Eric: Well, it has the potential to be useful. They’re talking about giant wars today. Hmm, who is this relevant to? I wonder where Hagrid is. Huh.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Little bit of a hint from J.K. Rowling?

Eric: Too bad it’s a sleeper. Why don’t we see Umbridge in Professor Binns’s class? I think that would be comedic goals.

Andrew: Because even she knows it’s so boring she doesn’t want to type it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, no, I mean… well, okay, so assuming she did eventually go to the class – we just don’t see her go to the class – she probably would have liked this class a lot, because you’re just studying a book. You’re going off of history and… well, I guess he would be talking about Voldemort a little bit, so maybe that would make her a tad uncomfortable. But largely, I think Umbridge would like Binns’s class.

Laura: Yeah, because he’s just lecturing. There’s no dialogue.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. There’s no wand work. Yeah, he’s just going off of history.

Micah: During this class, though, Hedwig shows up at the window – answer to this week’s Quizzitch question…

Eric: Woohoo!

Micah: … and she’s injured, and this is part of what we were talking about earlier with the lines of communication being monitored. I can’t recall if we find out who is responsible for injuring her later on – we’ll discuss that in another chapter if that’s the case – but this is a situation where now Harry should be extremely careful about how he’s communicating with the outside world and who he is communicating with, and when he goes to take Hedwig to get help from Professor Grubbly-Plank, McGonagall tells him as much, and it just blows my mind that he would then at the end of this chapter still communicate with Sirius.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Because it’s such a tip of the hat as to what is to come. McGonagall is telling him straight out, “Be very, very mindful of what you’re doing here,” and she’s not just talking, I don’t think, about owls; she’s talking about all forms of communication. And then he’s reckless again. I don’t know how he would have been able to communicate with Sirius in such a short span to let him know not to show up in the Floo Network…

Eric: Right.

Micah: … but maybe when he first shows up to say to him, “Look, communication lines are being monitored.” And I think even Sirius…

Andrew: “Can’t talk, bye.”

Micah: Yeah, Sirius, I think, says something along those lines, where he may even think that there’s a chance that he’s being watched. So it just… it’s very, very reckless, classic Sirius.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, it’s worked for Harry so far. He’s proud of his cryptic messages. He really needs to speak to Sirius; it makes him feel good. He knows Sirius enjoys talking to them too. There are more benefits to continuing speaking with Sirius than there are cons for Harry at this point, and he thinks he will be able to get away with it. He gets away with a lot, and this is just something else that he thinks is going to work in his favor. Plus, he does have an adult, Sirius, willingly speaking to him. It may have been one thing if Sirius was like, “No, I don’t want to do this anymore; it’s too risky,” but Sirius is encouraging him as well.

Eric: Yeah. And I think for me, at least – not to jump to the very end of the chapter – but when the hand is in the fireplace, I didn’t know that that was a thing that could happen, right?

Laura: No.

Eric: The Floo Network can be so…

Andrew: It’s really creepy.

Eric: It’s creepy. The visuals are very striking, and it’s a complete game changer as far as what you thought was safe or secure, right? So for me, McGonagall saying that to Harry… and it’s underscored by what happens. But man, Hogwarts is a police state, to your point, Micah. It’s scary how not secure… how much control Umbridge has.

Laura: It reminds me of when here in the States, we found out that the National Security Administration literally had access to all of our text messages, could listen to all of our phone calls if they wanted to.

Micah: Right. And McGonagall legitimately seems concerned, not for Hedwig, but for Harry, and…

Andrew: Screw the owl. Who cares?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … especially when Harry, through his own code, tells her who he was corresponding with, and I just think that Harry needs to be a lot more careful, especially given the fact that Umbridge is starting to lay down all these Educational Decrees.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, let’s hope this is a learning lesson for Harry. It also cracked me up that Grubbly-Plank was smoking a pipe indoors.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: She comes out to help Harry. Does that not smell in the wizarding world? I wonder what’s going on there. Do they not cause cancer?

Micah: I thought you were going to…

Laura: No, they can just Evanesco the cancer.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I think it absolutely smells, but this is J.K. Rowling’s idea of what a wizard is, right? It’s very… the wizards in Lord of the Rings are always smoking Longbottom Leaf and the…

Andrew: Is she smoking Floo Powder?

Micah: [laughs] Longbottom Leaf.

Eric: Maybe. That’s what it’s called.

Micah: Is it really?

Eric: Or the Hobbits. The Hobbits smoke it, yeah. The name Longbottom comes from Lord of the Rings; it’s a direct pull.

Andrew: [gasps] J.K. Rowling stole something.

Micah: I thought maybe you’d say that Harry showed up at just the right time because Grubbly-Plank and McGonagall had just finished, since she was smoking a pipe.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Getting high?

Eric: Oh!

Micah: Well, that’s one way of looking at what I said, but there’s a whole ‘nother way of looking at it as well.

Andrew: Oh, I see.

Eric: Anyway, I think wizards can probably deal with the fallout. They can use a magical filter, so only the…

Andrew: Right, there’s… I can’t imagine… now, a lot of people over in England smoke. Every time I go over to London, I’m like, “Wow, there are a lot of smokers over here.” Here in America, I think a lot of people have caught on to the dangers, and it’s become less cool to smoke, but over in London, you can’t step ten feet outside without somebody smoking in your face.

Micah: Can’t wait for those emails now.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, I think it’s important to just note that there’s cultural differences there. I think that’s 100% valid.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. That’s why I…

Laura: Well, and the good news for McGonagall and Grubbly-Plank is that they are less than three people, so they can keep on their smoking club in peace.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: They can continue smoking those pipes together.

Micah: This spoke to me, though, as an opportunity for yet again the readers to see Grubbly-Plank as being a effective professor, because she is caring for Hedwig. We presume that she is going to do right by her and heal her. And I’m not sure – not to get into too much of a debate here – would Hagrid be able to be helpful in this situation, do we think, with Hedwig?

Laura: I think so.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: I think so too. I mean, that’s who they initially want to turn to. That’s who Harry wants to turn to, and then he remembers that he’s not there.

Eric: The one clue from this chapter is that Grubbly-Plank is talking about what could have injured Hedwig, and she says the Thestrals sometimes go for owls, or sometimes can go for owls, but what she says is that Hagrid has trained the Hogwarts Thestrals so darn well that they don’t ever, not once, go for owls. So I think if Hagrid can train Thestrals, he absolutely could have handled the owl the way that she’s doing.

Micah: But that’s sort of ironic, because don’t we see a Thestral jump out of the forest while Harry is in the owlery?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: For no apparent reason.

Micah: The Thestrals are going rogue now that Hagrid is not there. Great another quick Thestral drop on the part of J.K. Rowling; we obviously, at this point, don’t know what they are.

Eric: Yeah, exactly, and Harry is like, “I don’t know what that is, but I do not care.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “But meanwhile, I keep seeing these boney winged horses everywhere. Huh, that’s weird.”

Andrew: “Am I contact high? What am I looking at?”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Let’s talk about Neville and Draco, and Draco, of course, is really just bragging about the fact that the Slytherin Quidditch team has received approval to continue on with their activities, and he talks about people with addled brains and that there’s a special place for them in St. Mungo’s, and this draws a reaction from Neville, and understandably so. And we’ve never seen Neville respond in this way before. Harry knows why he is responding in this manner, but most of the other students – probably all of the other students – have no clue.

Andrew: No.

Micah: And it was really kind of a sad moment, and I would have liked to see Neville deck Draco, personally.

Eric: Well, even Draco has his jaw on the floor seeing Neville come at him. Draco just runs his mouth and runs his mouth and never expects that something he said… he’s ever going to pay for it, and I hate that type of person, but it would have been very satisfying.

Laura: Yeah, and going a little deeper here, we have to remember that Draco’s aunt was one of the participants who actually tortured Frank and Alice Longbottom to the point where they had to be put in St. Mungo’s, and I’m sure Neville is aware of that familial connection.

Eric: Oh, God. Yeah, so Draco… not cool, bro.

Micah: And we will see Frank and Alice Longbottom later on in this book. We’ll also run into Professor Lockhart in the same part of St. Mungo’s, so a little bit of… not foreshadowing, but interesting that J.K. Rowling would drop that here, and then we go get to experience that a little bit later on in this book.

Eric: Classic Jo.

Andrew: It’s also a good learning lesson for young readers. Treat others the way you wish to be treated, and be mindful that what you say can affect people in ways that you do not realize. Because too often we might make jokes amongst peers – or even here on the show – that might be insensitive towards others, but we just don’t know their backstory, so it’s just a good reminder that… just don’t ever say anything mean, because there’s a chance that somebody could be really offended by something. They could take it personally for reasons you may never know.

Micah: Absolutely. And I jokingly thought that given that Harry is “fighting” with Neville… Snape makes the decision to take ten points from Gryffindor. I thought he would have given ten points to Gryffindor, given that two of those students were fighting with each other.

Andrew: [laughs] I completely agree with that, actually. That seems like something that would be right up his alley. [imitating Snape] “Ten points for punching Neville in the face.”

Micah: Well, you mentioned that Umbridge was not in Professor Binns’s class earlier. She is in Potions with Professor Snape, and this was just a great sequence during the Order of the Phoenix film between Imelda Staunton and Alan Rickman. And Harry just can’t, I don’t think, get enough of this. He’s watching it the whole time as it’s transpiring, and it ends up backfiring on him because Snape catches him watching and he gets some extra work as a result of it. But we learn a little bit about Snape in this exchange between him and Umbridge, particularly that he has tried many, many times to be Defense Against the Dark Arts professor and not been given that position.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a big revelation, and something that I was always fascinated by. I can see why this was really embarrassing for Snape, too, because the kids are learning that he’s been a failure. He’s had this thing that he’s really wanted to do for a long time, and for some reason, Dumbledore has not given it to him. So it’s embarrassing to have this announced to his classroom.

Laura: I do wonder where Umbridge got that information.

Eric: Right? Dumbledore wouldn’t have made that known that… unless Snape… unless the application process is some kind of formal paperwork thing that involves the Ministry.

Andrew: That’s what I’m thinking.

Eric: Oh, maybe… you know what? Maybe it does, because if he’s applying, clearly the Ministry would oversee certain appointments. And if Dumbledore is reaching out to the wider world, maybe they have a paper trail.

Andrew: Yeah, or maybe just at Hogwarts, you have to apply on paper, and Umbridge, since she has no life, has just been sorting through all that paperwork and found these numerous applications from Snape.

Eric: Yeah, good point.

Micah: I bet it was Willy Widdershins. He tipped her off again.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You definitely want… I thought the lesson was going pretty well, and then when Umbridge brings that up, you’re like, “Ooh, he’s going to get even with her so hard.” And you’re just waiting for her immediate downfall that I don’t know comes right away, but she crossed a line there in bringing that up.

Andrew: Harry says that he doesn’t know who he wants to win because he hates them both so much, but I think he should want Snape to win in this case, because Umbridge has been permanently scarring him.

Laura: I think for Harry, it’s a bit like watching a train wreck. He’s just… it’s so horrible, but he can’t look away.

Micah: Yeah, Harry definitely enjoys himself up until the moment where he gets extra homework, so… typical Snape. We also visit Trelawney’s classroom. We learn the fact that she has been put on probation; don’t think we’re much surprised by this, given how her evaluation went. Any thoughts on Trelawney?

Eric: It’s real unfortunate, because hers was the most transparently useless appointment at Hogwarts. She just goes out of her way… like when she predicted something for Umbridge, it just was such a clear attempt to scare her, and I’m just not surprised by this result at all.

Laura: No.

Andrew: I think this was hard to read because we have to see Trelawney so emotional in front of the students. You should never have to see a teacher this way ever.

Laura: Yeah, I think what makes this hard is that Trelawney definitely deserved to be put on probation because she’s not a good teacher, but it’s hard to accept that because the way that it happened with Umbridge undermining her in front of her class was incredibly unprofessional. So it’s kind of like, yeah, she does deserve this, but at the same time, the timing of this and the method that was used to put her on probation was also very unprofessional.

Micah: And honestly, not all that legitimate, because as we talked about, who is Umbridge to evaluate anybody?

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: [laughs] A Ministry official, Micah. Don’t you dare question her.

Laura: They should let McGonagall observe Umbridge’s class.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Love it.

Andrew: Yeah. I don’t even think she would want to. She just doesn’t have time. She doesn’t care. She’s not interested in judging these other teachers in the way that Umbridge is, even if Umbridge doesn’t deserve to be judging all them. What does it mean, though, that Trelawney is on probation, though? Just like, “This is a warning; if you screw up one or two more times, you’re out”?

Micah: Yeah, I think that means that she’s subject to further evaluation. Maybe it goes up to Fudge or to somebody else at the Ministry to evaluate while she is on probation.

Andrew: “So we’ve got this crazy Seer at Hogwarts.”

Micah: Yeah, it is definitely tough to read this part of the chapter, and it is important, I think, too, though, to note some of the information that we’re getting during these moments, because as a first time reader, something like Snape saying that he applied multiple times for Defense Against the Dark Arts, that’s confirmation of something that we as readers take for granted, because at this point we’ve read all seven books, but that’s a first time reveal that, I think, is important. And then I think Trelawney also drops the amount of time that she has been working at the school, kind of as she’s muttering under her breath, so just little nuggets of information that are important. All right, let’s all get cozy by the fire and go to the Gryffindor common room. There can only be two of us on the couch…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … and then two of us far away by the staircase that goes up to the boys’ dormitory, so that we’re not three or more together. Sirius does show up, and he’s kind of excited; he’s happy that the trio are fighting back and sticking it to Umbridge. And one of the first points, though, that he does raise is that Hermione has a lot to learn, because her decision for this group to meet up in the Hog’s Head wasn’t the best one, because there aren’t that many people there. That would make you think that, “Oh, that’s a great location, because there aren’t a lot of people.” But yet, there’s something to be said for meeting in a public setting where you would be expected to be in the first place, right? So the Three Broomsticks, if you had gone there and you’re congregating, and there’s other people from other Houses and you’re having a conversation… yeah, I mean, what do you all make of this? I think it would have been less coincidental for them to all be in that location.

Eric: I love the nuance there.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: I completely agree with Sirius. On the other hand, they would have been very noticeable, this large group hanging out at the Three Broomsticks, all congregating. And since it’s loud in there, they’d have to all be tight together so they can hear each other speak. I’m of two minds of that on this issue, because I believe Sirius is right, but on the other hand, they would have stuck out like a sore thumb.

Eric: Yeah, and they did, but it would have been impossible to have the conversation they needed to have in the Three Broomsticks. You just couldn’t do it. You’d be… it would have been… you’d have to play whisper down the alley, or I guess people call it telephone; don’t know why.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: One person telling one person, “He says he’s not going to tell us about Cedric,” and then he turns to the… you know, to have the conversation.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Granted, there is that space above the Three Broomsticks where Harry overhears the whole Peter Pettigrew discussion back in Book 3, and maybe they could have convinced Rosmerta. Ron could have gone up and blushed real hard and said, “Hey, we have a slightly larger group; can we go upstairs?” But even then you have a lot of people taking note of where they’re going. Yeah, I don’t know that there’s a right or wrong way for them to have done what they did.

Micah: No, I mean, I think you can make arguments for either one. I mean, the flip side is that you’re in a location where then everything that you say can be overheard, whether it’s by the Yorkshire Dementors or the goat lover or Mundungus. All those people in that bar clearly heard what they were talking about. And I hear you, because then if you’re in the Three Broomsticks, you would have to scream pretty loudly.

Laura: Yeah, but also, Willy Widdershins would have stuck out like a sore thumb in the Three Broomsticks.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Wouldn’t the best solution have been going into the forest or something? Something where there’s definitely nobody…

Micah: Hagrid’s.

Andrew: Hagrid’s, sure.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Nobody’s there.

Andrew: Then again, they are being followed, so really, there was no solution here.

Eric: I just love that there’s four people in the Hog’s Head; every single one of them is a spy [laughs] who’s following Harry for some or another… it’s pretty crazy.

Micah: Except for the Yorkshire Dementors, right? They’re just getting drunk.

Eric: Yeah, no, they’re just having a good time.

Andrew: [laughs] They’re just getting drunk.

Laura: Dementors just want to have fun.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: Speaking of Mundungus, we learn that he was the witch, and he was tailing Harry. But I’m a bit confused: Was he there before they arrived? If he’s responsible for keeping tabs on Harry, how did he know that he was going to be at the Hog’s Head?

Eric: That’s kind of the thing.

Andrew: That’s a good question.

Eric: Yeah, because he… after the children come in, there are no other adults that come in, so Willy and Dung would have already had to have been in the bar. But I guess Sirius says in this chapter that Dung was banned 20 years ago, [laughs] and so I think Dung just happened to be in there. He is following Harry; that’s his job, but he went in for a pick-me-up, and that was when he happened to find Harry. I don’t know about Willy…

Andrew: So he got lucky, you’re saying.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I could definitely see Dung being like, “Oh, I’m going to nip in here for a quick drink,” and then Harry comes in and he’s like, “Oh! Awesome!”

Andrew: “Perfect! Dumbledore is going to be happy with me.”

Eric: He’s working from home today.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: One other bit of information that we learn is that Molly doesn’t want Ron to be involved in this group, but surprisingly, she doesn’t make any mention of Fred, George, or Ginny, and I don’t know if that’s just because she doesn’t know about them…

Andrew: She doesn’t love them. Next topic.

Micah: [laughs] This is just more of Molly being a mom.

Andrew: I think she just isn’t aware that Fred, George, or Ginny are involved at this stage. Like, of course Ron is involved.

Eric: Here’s the thing: I don’t know what she’s playing at, trying to save Ron’s soul, right? There’s this threat of this… Percy is trying to do it too, but Molly herself has all this moral courage. She’s in the Order. She’s fighting Voldemort. She’s even on duty. They don’t know what that means, “on duty tonight.” I think it just means in the Hall of Prophecy. But she has all this courage, but she doesn’t want her own children to exercise the same courage that she is showing in defying things because she could get in trouble. I don’t know. I don’t know how she thinks they’re going to learn, really.

Laura: I think she’s just trying to protect them. She thinks that they’re children and that they shouldn’t have to be resisting in this way, especially when they’re at school. I think also she’s trying to appeal to Ron as a prefect; again, we have to remember how much emphasis she put on Ron being made a prefect earlier on in the book, so I think she’s trying to appeal to some sense of responsibility, which, of course, is not working.

Andrew: And yet she’s okay with these fireside chats? These seem like a security issue to me, so I’m surprised that she’s cool with Sirius talking to them.

Micah: I wouldn’t be surprised if she didn’t know about them.

Andrew: The chats?

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: But Molly asked Sirius to relay the message, so she must know that Sirius is talking to them somehow.

Micah: Ahh. It’s a fair point. I can’t really combat that in any way.

Andrew: Maybe she doesn’t know the details, just that he is getting a message somehow.

Micah: Yeah, it does seem quite dangerous for Sirius to be putting his neck out there – no pun intended – and risking being caught by somebody like Umbridge, especially knowing now the level of control that she has over the school. With Molly, though, I wonder, too, for her… she’s suffered tremendous loss in her family during the first war; we know that her brothers died, so I wonder if there’s that extra level of concern for her family given that that happened, and knowing how involved her and Arthur are now. Remember the boggart in the wardrobe scene from earlier on in this book. I think that she’s very, very concerned for her family. We know Bill and Charlie are involved with the Order to some extent, and she doesn’t want any more of her children fighting back and putting themselves in risk.

Andrew: Totes.

Micah: Toots.

Andrew: Totes.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: No. I heard that episode a couple weeks ago. I didn’t like that version of me. [laughs]

Eric: We stopped calling you that. Why did we ever stop calling you that?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We mentioned this earlier, but Sirius is very happy that the trio is fighting back. It’s very Marauder-esque, and he couldn’t be happier. But at the very end of this chapter, he is almost caught by Umbridge. I’m not sure exactly what tips him off that she’s there. Can he sense another witch or wizard being present? Did she kind of…?

Eric: There’s a click or something. There’s a sound that he hears, and he twitches and turns around and then…

Micah: Oh, I know what he heard, Andrew.

Andrew: Pause.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: That.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, but also she is trying to grab for him, so apparently you’re able to physically touch other people in the Floo Network?

Micah: Yeah. Well, that’s an interesting piece, because remember, Yaxley is able to grab onto… is it Hermione when they’re escaping the Ministry, and that’s why they don’t go back to Grimmauld Place in Deathly Hallows?

Eric: Yeah, but he just kind of held on. Umbridge not being in the Gryffindor common room fire or the Grimmauld Place fire should not be able to access their conversation. It’s like when we had landline phones, right? And somebody in the house, upstairs or downstairs, would pick up the phone when you’re on the phone, when you’re on the conversation…

Andrew: Right. I’ve done that.

Eric: Sorry, half the listeners of this show will not know what I’m talking about.

Micah: Google it.

Andrew: “What is a landline?”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Yeah, you can get on and there’s a tiny click when somebody picks up and you can hear them breathing, maybe.

Andrew: Right. Well, if you’re good, you’re able to pick up the phone without being noticed. I got really good at that, but anyway…

Eric: [laughs] But Umbridge…

Laura: But yeah, all of… we all had experiences with our parents trying to spy on us when we were on the phone. This is what this reminds us of.

Andrew: Or vice versa. I was just bored. This was before podcasts. This was a podcast, secretly listening in on your parents’ phone conversations.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Younger children, just ask your parents about it. But Sirius, the book says, “He broke off. His face was suddenly tense, alarmed. He turned sideways, apparently looking into the solid brick wall of the fireplace.” So we don’t know exactly what you see when you’re head-only in the Floo Network, but Sirius clearly had some kind of a… he has enough experience with the Floo Network that he could detect when the call was no longer secure.

Laura: I have a question about this, and I might have missed something, but in order for Sirius to talk to them this way through the Floo Network, is he literally on all fours with his head in the fireplace?

Eric: That’s what I understand. Because when Harry does it later, that’s what happens.

Laura: Okay, it’s just so funny. Can you imagine walking in a room and seeing somebody like that? [laughs]

Eric: Well, who is it who’s in the Weasleys’ fireplace in Book 4 and Molly feeds him toast? [laughs]

Laura: Oh yeah, you’re right.

Eric: Can you imagine eating like that? [laughs]

Micah: So that toast is extra crispy.

Eric: Yeah, I guess.

Laura: Good grief.

Micah: This reminds me, though, of just our larger conversation that Andrew often likes to talk about, the fact that Hogwarts is a security nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Just think about it; anybody can use the Floo Network? Does Sirius have to do certain spells or charms to be able to access Hogwarts? Or is he getting, I don’t know, direction from somebody in the Order about how to go about doing that? It just seems like then anybody could use the Floo Network. Death Eaters could drop in.

Eric: Well, it’s like you can get a court order to tap phones, phone lines, or you used to be able to. The Floo Network is not WhatsApp, where everything is supposed to be encrypted; even WhatsApp technicians aren’t supposed to be able to see those messages. It’s not that. It’s very much just your standard telephone lines. So because it’s a public service, a Floo Network – it’s something that the government probably pays to have operating – they have a back door.

Andrew: But why can anybody just show up in any fireplace? That seems like a major issue. You should be able to turn that off.

Eric: I think it has something to do with Hogwarts, all the Floos of Hogwarts on the network. Like Umbridge’s office; she later makes it the master network, like her fireplace is the master fireplace. I think that… it’s like if you were to telephone Hogwarts, you’d telephone and then all the other fireplaces would be extensions. You know what I’m saying? Like, “Dial three for Ravenclaw,” that kind of thing.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So I think… no, I honestly think that’s how it works, so that’s how Umbridge is able to get into the Gryffindor fireplace through whatever the master fireplace is. Maybe it’s Dumbledore’s, or maybe she makes it her own. But I think that’s why… because all the fireplaces at Hogwarts are connected to each other before they’re connected to everywhere else.

Andrew: I was also just a little disturbed by Sirius just showing up when he thought the time was right. You don’t know which students are still up. It’s noted that it’s past midnight, but I feel like a lot of kids could be up past midnight.

Micah: Definitely.

Laura: Well, and he was seen briefly by a second year the last time he did this.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Do you think they saw ember Sirius or flame Sirius?

Andrew: I hope flame Sirius. The better Sirius.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, for their sake.

Andrew: Flaming Sirius.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But do we have to deduct one from the Umbridge suck count for doing something that actually is a good thing, in monitoring the Floo Network? I think that’s something that should be top-of-the-list priority from a security standpoint, and Dumbledore is not doing his job.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Interesting. A deduction. I like this idea. I can go along with this.

Eric: Eh, I don’t.

Laura: But she’s not using her powers for good, though.

Eric: Are we going to say, “Congratulations, you didn’t suck this one time”? We’re only counting when she did suck.

Andrew: Yeah, but if Voldemort went in via the Floo Network, she probably would have tried to grab for him, too, right? Because she wouldn’t want anybody to see Voldemort. So I don’t know; I think Micah has a point.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah, I would also add one to the suck count. Well, we’ll get there in a minute. But anything else to wrap up the chapter? I mean, this is, as we said earlier on, Hogwarts becoming more and more of a police state with Umbridge at the helm. She’s monitoring the lines of communication, whether it’s the Floo Network, whether it’s the owls; she’s taking over in terms of monitoring all student activity when they’re not in class.

Andrew: I just wanted to mention one little thing: Ron says, “Hark who’s talking.” I didn’t know what that meant when I was a kid. Definitely some British slang.

Laura: Isn’t it like, “Look who’s talking”?

Andrew: Exactly.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: But “hark.”

Eric: Hark the Herald Angels Sing.

Andrew: [tearfully] I don’t understand.

Laura: It sounds very Shakespearean, I will say.

Andrew: Yes. Yes, it does.

Micah: It sounds more like Percy than Ron. “Hark” is… I don’t know. Maybe that’s just me, character-wise.

Andrew: Maybe he picked it up from his brother.

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew: He wants to sound fancy every once in a while.

Micah: Yeah. All right, let’s get to the Umbridge Suck count.

Andrew: So for Educational Decree Number 24, that’s definitely one.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: For suggesting the Strengthening Solution should be removed from the syllabus. I thought that was pretty bad.

Eric: Ugh.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Holding off on giving the Gryffindor Quidditch team permission to practice. We didn’t talk about that too much today, but wow. That is just so blatantly BS. There’s absolutely no reason.

Eric: Right, she approves Slytherin right away.

Andrew: They should all be approved right away.

Eric: They should. They should, because they’re regular teams; the House points is tied into it. It’s too valuable to lose. But she tells Angelina that she needs time to think about it for Gryffindor, and that is such a blatant… ugh… favoritism.

Andrew: Yeah. And then are we deducting a point for Micah’s thought?

Micah: Well, I have a couple other suggestions here…

Andrew: Oh, go ahead.

Micah: … that would probably counteract the deduction.

Andrew: [laughs] The negative one.

Micah: I would say for putting Trelawney on probation.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: Unless we feel strongly that she should have been put on probation.

Andrew: Ooh.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just a scare tactic, and Umbridge is spreading this fear and really contributing to Trelawney’s lack of wellbeing, so I would say so.

Andrew: I guess the question is, is she doing it because she genuinely believes that Trelawney is a bad teacher? Or is she doing it just because she’s Umbridge?

Eric: Well, she’s doing it. I doubt there’s ever been a process for probation that’s been readily enforced when teachers aren’t living up to standards, so it’s totally Umbridge being Umbridge.

Andrew: So then I would say add one to the suck count.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: All right. And then one more, which was for Umbridge… if Umbridge had not enacted Educational Decree Number 24, it would never have caused Draco to say what he said and put Neville into that state of mind. So everybody loves Neville. I have to give her another suck count for that.

Eric: Okay, and that can be erased by your crediting her with…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: If you want.

Laura: There you go.

Andrew: So one, two, three, four, five, minus one. So it looks like we’re up to 32 times Umbridge has sucked.

Eric: Man.

Micah: All right.

Laura: My goodness. We have so much book left, so many more opportunities to suck.

[Eric and Laura laugh]


Connecting the Threads


Laura: We do have a few threads to connect, though. So I thought it was really interesting in this chapter that Sirius suggests the idea of the DA holding their meetings in the Shrieking Shack, because the trio first enters the Shrieking Shack after Sirius drags Ron into it. This is also Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 17.

Andrew and Eric: Wow.

Eric: Love a good throwback.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Just beautiful, just beautiful. And then Chapter 17 of Prisoner of Azkaban ends with Snape revealing himself from under Harry’s Invisibility Cloak, and then this Chapter 17 of Order of the Phoenix ends with Umbridge’s hand appearing in the fire, trying to snatch Sirius, both cases in which enemies emerge in order to expose Sirius. Then we also learn about Snape’s Defense Against the Dark Arts aspirations and his envy of people who hold the position. So we find out at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban that Snape is the one who’s responsible for outing Lupin as a werewolf, which is the reason why he has to leave his job. And then we find out in this chapter that he has applied for this job numerous times over the years. This definitely lends a lot of context to maybe why Snape had so much animosity towards Lupin, apart from all of the childhood trauma that he endured at the hands of the Marauders.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for our MVP of the Week. Oh, wait, this has new music too. Are you all ready? Okay, I don’t know how we’re going to intro this, how we’re going to do this going forward. So it’s time for our MVP of the Week!

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: Ohhh boy! Look out!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: In this corner…

Micah: Oh, wow.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Sirius for ducking the hands; that was impressive, because if he was caught, those hands would have been very uncomfortable on his neck, and maybe he would have died. So good job, Sirius.

Laura: I’m giving mine to Professor Grubbly-Plank. Not only is she able to take care of Hedwig, but she’s also the one who really tips Harry off to this idea that his communications might be monitored.

Micah: I’m going to give my MVP to Hedwig for taking one for the team due to Harry’s inability to listen to what McGonagall tells him.

Eric: And I’m giving mine to Fred and George. Hermione can’t find a single rule that they’re breaking after they expand their enterprise. [laughs] They’re making money, and Hermione can’t stop them, so good for them, yeah. It’s a shame.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Hark the Toad, Never More.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Wow. That’s the most Shakespearean of all titles.

Micah: A little Edgar Allen Poe. A little Shakespeare.

Laura: Also a little bit of Poe in there?

Eric: Oh yeah, a little Poe. There you go.

Andrew: I just needed to use “Hark” and I was thinking “Hark the raven,” you know?

Eric: Hark the Craven.

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17, “Big Brother Is Watching You.”

Micah: Similar to Laura, I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 17…

[“Every Breath You Take” by The Police plays]

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Classic soft rock.

Andrew: That is “Every Breath You Take” by Micah.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He wrote a song just for today.

Micah: Yep.

Eric: I named it Harry Potter and the Order of Phoenix Chapter 17, “Much Ado About Barfing,” because that’s what Fred and George are doing in the common room in front of everybody, and it’s disgusting, but funny.

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s episode or our chapter analysis, send it on into MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can write to us or send us a voice memo that way. You can also call us 1-920-3-MUGGLE.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch!

Eric: Last week’s question was: Who visits Harry in History of Magic? And we were right…

Micah: Hedwig.

Eric: … when we said it was Hedwig. Yes, Micah.

Andrew: Good job, Micah.

Eric: Good job, Micah. Very, very good job.

Micah: My MVP of the Week.

Eric: We actually had some really good turnout in terms of people answering this question. It’s not likely for Harry to get visitors, so I’m glad everybody seemed to remember this moment. But the winning answers were submitted by Ryan Nolan, Annika, Steph, Riley, Prami, Alexandria, Caleb, Danny, William, ReeseWithoutHerSpoon, Cat’s Pajamas, Count Ravioli, Caleb, Matthew, Two Beers, Joseph, Stephanie, Stacy, Christina, Jason, Michael Not Eric, and others. Congratulations to everyone who got correct answer over on Twitter. And next week’s question… we need music for Quizzitch. Why do you guys get music segments for all the other…?

Micah: Go pick it out, man.

Andrew: Micah picked out those songs. Pick out your own.

Eric: Okay. It’s going to be like the Jeopardy theme.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: This week’s question: What spell does Gryffindor use to help them practice at Quidditch? So next Quizzitch question has to do with Quidditch.

Andrew: Okay. How meta.

Eric: Yeah. Submit your answers to us on Twitter using hashtag Quizzitch over on MuggleCast, at @MuggleCast.

Andrew: You can also follow us on Instagram and Facebook; username MuggleCast there as well. You will get Throwback Thursday clips, you will get show previews, so thank you for following us on social media. Before we wrap up today, we just want to let everybody know that we will be off next week. We will miss you, but we have a couple of things going on, so we will not have a new episode out. However, we will be releasing a new bonus MuggleCast in the days ahead over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Micah, what are we going to be talking about?

Micah: We are going to be talking about Dolores Jane Umbridge. Lot of interesting information on her over on WizardingWorld.com. We get her backstory, her rise to power within the Ministry… a lot of good stuff to talk about that lets us know why she is the person that she is in the Harry Potter series. But I will just say, I love the fact that I am coming to Chicago next week and both of you will not be there.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Eric, this is the second time in a row this year I will be in Chicago and you will not be there.

Eric: I know.

Andrew: He’s avoiding you, obviously.

Micah: Yeah, clearly.

Eric: But Andrew and I will be in LA. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, I’m going to be learning about podcasting. Eric is going to be learning about Doctor Who. Yeah, so we’re busy nerding out over here on the West Coast, baby.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: All right.

Andrew: But yeah, we reference this piece written by J.K. Rowling about Umbridge a lot, and it was actually originally published on Potter-No-More. Luckily, it lives on on WizardingWorld.com, and since we reference it so much, we’re going to go through it, talk about the details and how it applies to our analysis of Order of the Phoenix. So again, that’ll be available at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get lots of bonus content there. Somebody wrote to us the other day; they said, “Will I have access to all of the previous audio content if I pledge now?” And I said, “Heck, yeah!” We have four years of content there now…

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: … so you can check it all out by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast. In addition to all those installments of bonus MuggleCast, you will also be eligible for this year’s physical gift. You will also be able to tune in to our weekly livestreams, which we do on Saturday or Sunday morning. You get this raw, unedited behind-the-scenes look at the show, because we’re putting together the show, and trying to make it through each episode.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: So you can tune into that every weekend, and you can also participate. We have a little chatroom going on as we are recording. Thanks to everybody who is joining us today. All right, that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. Thanks so much for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’ll see you in two weeks. Goodbye.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #452

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #452, Essence of Goat (OOTP 16, The Hog’s Head)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And on today’s episode, we are discussing Chapter 16 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Hog’s Head.” But first, we have some news and a little bit of feedback. Everybody still following J.K. Rowling on Twitter?

Laura: Sure.

Micah: Don’t everybody jump at once.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I haven’t actively unfollowed her yet. Maybe I should get on that. Thank you for the reminder.

Andrew: No, no. Well, J.K. Rowling does seem to be back. I don’t think we brought this up last week; I think we recorded before she got tweeting, but she announced on Twitter last weekend that the fifth Cormoran Strike book is finished, and she took a picture of the script, and it looks big. She didn’t give a release date yet, but now that it’s done, I would assume that it’s going to be released by the end of this year. Here’s the thing: I haven’t finished Lethal White yet, I’m embarrassed to admit; not because it’s bad, but just because it’s a big, dense book. Anyone else here read Lethal White?

Eric: I’m in the exact same position. I was liking Lethal White, but I stopped reading it.

Micah: I finished it, so I’ll save the group here.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: No, I’ll definitely get caught up.

Andrew: So we don’t have a release date yet, but I would assume it’s going to be by the end of this year. And J.K. Rowling has previously said, I think, she has more than seven of these books planned total, so this could be going on for a while. The other thing is, I had read an interview recently – now, this interview was a good year old when I read it a few weeks ago – but J.K. Rowling said that she was going to be working on a children’s book first before finishing Strike book 5, so if that plan remained accurate, then she may already have a children’s book finished as well, and it’s one she said she had lodged in her head for a while, and she never… she just needed to put pen to paper, and she was finally getting around to doing it. So I wonder – and we brought this up in the Slug Club hangout last weekend – I wonder if she might have, or might be about to, secretly publish a children’s book under a pseudonym, like she did the Cormoran Strike series. And I think it would be more important for her to publish under a pseudonym, publish a children’s book under a pseudonym, because if she went out and published a children’s book under J.K. Rowling, everybody is going to compare it to Harry Potter, just like they would have Cormoran Strike but tenfold, because it’s another children’s book.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Do you think at this point she’ll be able to pull that off, though?

Andrew: Well, I think she learned from the “mistakes” in publishing Cormoran Strike, so now she probably knows how to really publish secretly without getting noticed. [laughs]

Micah: I can’t really see her going down that road again because I feel like she learned her lesson with Robert Galbraith. And regardless, it’s going to come out at some point that she wrote that book, and it’s going to be compared to Harry Potter anyway. What’s the point in trying to cover it up? I don’t think that she’s finished this book; I think a lot of her time was sidetracked by having to rewrite the third Fantastic Beasts movie, and she was probably a lot closer to finishing the fifth Cormoran Strike novel, and that probably also got put on the back burner for a little bit. I would have thought that that fifth book would have been out sooner.

Andrew: I just love this idea that there’s a secret J.K. Rowling book sitting on bookstore shelves right now and we have no idea. [laughs]

Micah: One other piece of news we wanted to touch on – and I’m sure most of our listeners know about it at this point – was the tragic passing of Kobe Bryant last weekend. And he was actually a very big Harry Potter fan, and he created a book series; I don’t know that we ever talked about it or even mentioned it in the news on this podcast, but it’s called The Wizenard Series, and it’s written by an author named Wesley King. But he was ultimately, Kobe, the one who had the idea to create this series, and he drew his inspiration from Harry Potter, and it’s, I think, now a four book series? The fourth book is coming out in March. Not sure if that’s going to change at all, given what happened. But I thought it was worth mentioning, and obviously really sad for me, personally, with my job.

Andrew: Yeah, his death was really shocking. And as you say, he’s a huge Harry Potter fan. After his passing, I found this article from GQ from February 2015, cataloging every time he’s mentioned Harry Potter in interviews. And he’s been a big fan going back to August 2007, when he said on Jimmy Kimmel Live that he named his dog “Dumbledore” because his dog was all white.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: So yeah, he was a huge Harry Potter fan, so we thought we should mention that on today’s episode. Just a really tragic and needless passing.

Micah: Absolutely.

Andrew: And I’m sure he wanted to instill the lessons of Harry Potter into all of his four children.

Eric: And this Wizenard series is about a basketball team, is it not? I’m reading the description here.

Micah: Yeah, it’s probably worth reading at least a piece of this description so listeners have a sense in terms of what it’s about. It says, “Magic doesn’t seem possible for the West Bottom Badgers. They’re the lowest-ranked basketball team in their league, and they live in the poorest neighborhood in Dren. Nobody expects them to succeed at anything.” So I think just a lot of ties to what certain individuals face growing up, adversity. And he was a big champion of youth and making sure that they all had the resources available to them that they needed, and he was a big proponent of youth basketball, specifically for young girls, and so I think that a lot of that is reflected in the writing of this series.

Andrew: We also have an email here. This is from Isabella.

“I am Isabella. I live in Australia and I am 10 years old. I just wanted to ask you a few questions.”

So panel, let’s just take these one by one.

“My first question is about Threstrals. So you have to see someone die to be able to see them, but didn’t Harry see his mother die? So why did he only start seeing Threstrals in his fifth year?”

Laura: I think J.K. Rowling answered this, didn’t she? It’s something about the death really needing to sink in.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: And Harry was so young when his mother died; even though he witnessed her die, he doesn’t have a clear, visceral memory of actually seeing her physical death, which he gets with Cedric in Book 4. But to be fair, I’m pretty sure J.K. Rowling answered this before Isabella was born.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s what I was just going to say, yeah.

Micah: Well, she’s also younger than our podcast, too, which I’m not sure how that makes all of us feel.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Oh, it makes me feel… anyways.

Eric: It’s a good question, because it is a kind of plot hole. Even after Cedric Diggory dies, the empty carriages are actually mentioned at the end of Book 4, so in order to get around that, or write around that, J.K. Rowling did say that it needed to sink in, so it’s not until the beginning of year five that Harry starts seeing them.

Andrew: Next question:

“I have some more questions about Time-Turners. If you went back in time, let’s say 1,000 years, would you still age? If so, what would happen?”

No, you would not age. From what we’ve seen, you don’t change age at all if you’re going backwards or forwards.

Eric: Well, Time-Turners outside of the Cursed Child take… every time you turn them, it takes you back an hour. So you would probably age while you were turning the thing long enough to go back 1,000 years. That would take you a couple years.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, okay, that’s true. Unless there’re super Time-Turners that let you just turn once for an entire year instead of an hour.

Eric: Yeah, but then once you get back there, you would age as normal because time would be linear again. The interesting thing that I wish that J.K. Rowling accounted… but it’s more like… I don’t think she needed to ever touch on it, which is why she didn’t. But Hermione, because of all the hours that she spent doing over in Book 3 in her third year, probably is, I mean, at least a year older than her birth date says because of the time that she spent living in the past. And it’s crazy because if you go back 24 times, well, that’s an extra day that you’ve aged. I mean, it’s inconsequential, but Hermione should… technically, if she did the math, has two different birthdays because she’s a couple weeks…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: By the end of the year, let’s just say she’s a couple weeks older.

Micah: As long as you’re on top of this, Eric, then that’s all that matters, because I can’t do the math.

Andrew: Yeah, here’s the thing, Isabella – and you’ll learn this about life in general – Time-Turners are very confusing, and they’ll just never make sense, kind of like life.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I feel like Time-Turners are something that would give you gray hair because it just seems like a burden on the body to be traveling through time like this.

Laura: Yeah, I have wondered if there is some toll that using a Time-Turner repeatedly takes on you.

Andrew: There should be. There should be a consequence.

Laura: I wonder in Book 3… we always assume that Hermione’s fragile mental state was due to the load of classes that she had, but I wonder if using the Time-Turner so frequently had something to do with that as well. It had to have thrown off her sense of time. We saw her getting increasingly confused about where she was supposed to be, and I wonder if that was more than her just getting confused about her schedule because she was being overworked.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: That’s a great point.

Laura: Crackpot theory.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: All right, it’s time for a quick break to hear from one of my favorite sponsors.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. This week, we are discussing Chapter 16 of Order of the Phoenix, “In the Hog’s Head,” and let’s start with our seven-word summary. Micah.

Micah: Yeah, I’m trying to think how I want to start this off, though.

Laura: He’s thinking.

Andrew: We’re going to start… we’re going to add a theme song to this segment, and it’s going to be like Jeopardy where we have 30 seconds to create the entire thing.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Shady…

Laura: … happenings…

Andrew: … occur…

Eric: … within…

Micah: … Aberforth’s…

Laura: … dingy…

Andrew: … bar.

Laura: Yay!

Andrew: I was hoping you were going to say “goat.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Within Aberforth’s goat,” and then I would have said zoo or chamber or something like that. [laughs]

Laura: Goat chamber?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, still no answer from J.K. Rowling on your direct reply to her, Andrew, right?

Andrew: Yes. Well, we could talk about that in a moment, once we get to the goat scene in this chapter. But I want to start off just by asking do you guys pay close attention to the chapter art when you’re reading the books? [laughs]

Eric: Sometimes.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I looked at this one for “In the Hog’s Head,” and I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I never noticed this before. The chapter art depicts the Hog’s Head sign, right? But on the sign is a decapitated hog’s head. And okay, I get that. But there’s blood surrounding the hog’s head, and it’s sitting on top of parchment to collect the blood? This is disgusting.

Laura: I mean, that’s how it’s described in the chapter.

Andrew: This is a children’s book.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Not anymore.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We’re in Order of the Phoenix, baby.

Andrew: I was just like, “Wow, okay, that’s really graphic.” I mean, you don’t see this in the theme parks; you don’t see the blood surrounding the decapitated head. I was just like, “Oh my goodness.”

Micah: Now you’re making me think, though, what is there actually outside of the Hog’s Head in Orlando?

Andrew: It’s a hog’s head, but no blood, and no blanket underneath.

Micah: But that’s on the wall, though, right? When you walk in, it’s beyond the bar.

Andrew: Right, but on the sign as well.

Micah: What about outside? Oh, okay.

Andrew: On the side as well, it’s a hog’s head. It’s a side angle, though; it’s not direct on like this is. Anyway, I was just really disturbed by this, something I had never noticed before.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think it’s just meant to add to the fact that this is a place that kids probably shouldn’t be going to on the regular.

Andrew: Yeah. And I mean, if I was a vegetarian or vegan I would be repulsed, and I would never walk in here.

Laura: I mean, I’m a 90% vegetarian/10% pescatarian, and I don’t know that this would stop me from walking in somewhere.

Andrew: You wouldn’t on principle? See, I would on principle.

Laura: No, but I mean, I don’t know; my views are maybe different than other folks, so I think this is a “To each their own” type scenario.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: I’d be interested, too, to learn more about why it’s called the Hog’s Head.

Andrew: That’s very British, isn’t it? You see bars that have weird names like this.

Eric: Also, there is a preoccupation with hogs in the general geographical area. They’re in Hogsmeade; there’s Hogwarts School up the hill.

Andrew: Oh, right.

Eric: I don’t think I ever made that connection before, but yeah, there’s something…

Micah: Well, you just did.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Maybe there’s a native boar population.

Andrew: Well, right, that’s probably the backstory of Hogsmeade; it was a old boar farm and it turned into a village and they named it Hogsmeade.

Eric: Yeah. It doesn’t explain where the goats come from, but if there were hogs, then that makes sense.

Andrew: They also don’t mention mead.

Micah: But don’t you worry, we’re going to talk about goats.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I’m not trying to jump the gun; it just keeps coming up.

Micah: Well, to start off the chapter, though, Harry is going through a bit of indecision, trying to figure out whether or not he, in fact, wants to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts, and Hermione kind of is needling him for, I think it’s about several weeks, isn’t that it? And even though he doesn’t want to do it on the surface, it’s referenced that subconsciously, he kind of digs the idea. And I think if I were him, he’s probably thinking in his head, “Oh yeah, check out my Patronus, Cho.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Coming up with things that he can do to show off a little bit. Don’t you think?

Andrew: Yeah, that would get a girl for sure, to be leading these classes. And I really like that Hermione let Harry think on this on his own for a couple of weeks, because if she were nagging him daily, that probably would have pushed him away more.

Eric: Agreed.

Micah: And probably the more that he’s experiencing Umbridge over the course of these weeks, the more he is inclined to want to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts as well.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Micah: So I was wondering, was there ever a situation that we felt that we learned a particular subject better from one of our peers than we did from a teacher?

Laura: I will say for me, I’ve never been in this kind of situation. I have been in a situation where we had a really, really intelligent teacher; they themselves were very skilled in their field but were not a good teacher, and because of that, we were all struggling, so we did form a study group so that we could try and learn this stuff together. But that’s the closest connection that I have to this; it’s never been anything like where the teacher was completely incompetent and didn’t actually know anything about the subject they were teaching.

Andrew: Well, what about podcasting? I mean, we’re self-taught there.

Laura: We are.

Andrew: And personally, I would say I was taught by… I brought up meeting Leo over the summer, my podcast idol.

Micah: Oh, what a moment that was.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I thought Eric and I just needed to vacate… actually, everybody just needed to vacate the hall. It was just… I didn’t know what Andrew was going to do.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No, I’m glad we saw it. I’m glad he didn’t drop and fall over and faint, because we would have had to carry him back to the room, but…

Andrew: I’m glad you guys did, too, because I blacked out. I don’t even remember what happened.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I had to have you guys retell the story. No, but just learning through listening to other podcasts, I think, also taught us in a way, at least me.

Micah: That’s really interesting because I’m trying to think back to middle school or high school, if there was something that I was more easily able to learn from a friend or a classmate than from a teacher, because there are definitely moments where whether the teacher is just completely inept at what they’re doing, or there’s just another way of learning something and maybe your classmate understands it better and they can communicate to you in a different way how to go about learning the subject.

Eric: I was in… I was very young; it was before middle school. I was in a chess club, and it was fun because it was peer taught versus being taught by a teacher, and it’s not like a teacher couldn’t teach chess, but the whole entire appeal was that it was fellow… third graders? I don’t know; it was a long time ago. I’m not that great at chess in the end, so maybe I should have opted for the official tutelage.

Micah: You don’t go to the park and play against old men? That’s not you?

Andrew: [laughs] I could see him doing that.

Eric: Yeah, if I could fall into one Pixar short, it would be that one.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I think it’s called For the Birds, maybe?

Andrew: Yes. Yeah, that was one of their early ones.

Eric: It was A Bug’s Life. It was before A Bug’s Life or something. But I wouldn’t… I’m 100% that old man.

Micah: No, what? No, there are kids that go and play against… it’s good for fostering relationships. I wasn’t joking. If I were actually decent at chess, I would consider doing that.

Eric: Yeah, it would be a really good time.

Andrew: I did also like that J.K. Rowling noted that Harry was planning lessons in his head because I think we all experience this a lot, where we start letting our imagination run wild…

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: … and when you do that in your head, when you’re kicking something around, that’s when you know that this is a good choice for you.

Eric: Definitely.

Micah: Well, let’s go inside the Hog’s Head, where ultimately, Hermione decides that this should be the place for the first meeting of Dumbledore’s Army, and wanted to take a quick look at some of the clientele.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Is this what you do when you enter a bar, Micah? You size everybody up?

Micah: Yeah, you’ve got to survey the scene. You’ve got to see who’s around you, what’s going on, and I think…

Andrew: Who you might have to fight.

Micah: Sure!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Just me? Okay.

Eric: You guys have a very different approach to going in bars than I do. I look at the drink specials, I think, first.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: I’ll start with the first individual, and then how about Laura and Eric, you could read the other ones?

Laura: Sure.

Micah: “There was a man at the bar whose whole head was wrapped in dirty gray bandages, though he was still managing to gulp endless glasses of some smoking, fiery substance through a slit over his mouth.” So maybe it’s… what’s the guy’s name, who played the Mummy? Or who’s in The Mummy?

Eric: Yeah, Imhotep, played by Arnold Vosloo. I’m also a Mummy aficionado.

Micah: Yes, that’s who’s at the bar.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Check out Eric’s Mummy podcast.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, he loves those movies; that’s why I asked.

Laura: Hey, those are great movies.

Eric: They’re really good.

Andrew: Didn’t know Eric was a fan.

Laura: Then we also have “Two figures shrouded in hoods sat at a table in one of the windows; Harry might have thought them Dementors if they had not been talking in strong Yorkshire accents.”

Andrew: Well, that could have just been an act, Harry. You didn’t have to let your guard down over the accent.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Right, the Dementors are definitely linguistic masters.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Love to go to bars.

Eric: Can I just say what an awesome bit of world-building that is, though, just the mental image of Dementors, but then the jarring aspect of a Yorkshire accent?

Laura: I just imagine…

Eric: I’m assuming that it’s a joke, and I’m assuming that Yorkshire accents are a little off-putting to an outsider. I don’t know for sure; I’m not going to google it just yet. I don’t want to offend anybody. But it’s deliberately meant to take him and… well, it takes Harry – and it’s deliberately meant to take us – for a little bit of a “Huh?” double take moment.

Laura: For some reason I imagine these to look like Sith Lords.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Look, Dementors need a drink too every once in a while, so if they’re not getting soul, then they need some firewhisky.

Laura: All that soul sucking is really soul-sucking.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it must be. It must be.

Eric: This shady character, turns out, is… well, I think they’re all probably hiding something they’re not telling, but “In a shadowy corner beside the fireplace sat a witch with a thick, black veil that fell to her toes.” Now, we later find out that this was Mundungus Fletcher, and he’s so covered up because he’s technically banned from the bar. And I know in a minute we’re going to talk about Aberforth and just what kind of establishment he’s running here, but it seems to have employed a “Don’t ask” policy about its inhabitants, and so somebody like Dung is able to quite successfully hoodwink Aberforth into coming back even long after he’s been banned. And I don’t know what act you have to carry out in order to be banned from a place like this. It’s probably pretty bad, right?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. This bar takes in everybody, so that’s a good point.

Micah: Dementors, apparently.

Andrew: Yeah. Yorkshire Dementors.

Micah: But I would assume that Mundungus was doing something that was even bad for Mundungus. We know that he likes to deal in illegal trading, so I’m sure if he was utilizing the Hog’s Head for that, that Aberforth would not be very kind to that type of behavior. Unless it was goats; unless he was trading goats.

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: Or maybe he did something bad to the goat.

Andrew: Yeah, that would be a bannable offense.

Micah: I mean, maybe he tried to charm the goat himself.

Eric: I was going to say, it is a good thing that it turns out later that it is Mundungus, because the word gets back to Dumbledore quite quickly as to what Harry is planning. And I think we may have to look in the upcoming chapters for examples of Dumbledore making it explicitly easier, as best he can, for the group to operate.

Micah: Now, one question I did have about this was: Is Mundungus just there by chance? Or is he actually placed there by Dumbledore? And if so, how would Dumbledore even know that this group was meeting?

Andrew: I would assume that he was placed there, because if he was banned from there, why would he be there? Does he just go there for fun, to see if he can get around Aberforth? I guess that’s possible.

Laura: [laughs] I think it’s possible that he was placed there for a separate purpose, and it was just convenient that Hermione decided this was the meeting place, just because we know from the past, for example, this is where Hagrid met with a disguised Quirrell in order to take Norbert’s egg, for example, right? So there have been shady happenings that happen in this bar in the past, and I could see Dumbledore very much wanting to make sure that this base is covered in terms of people trying to infiltrate Hogwarts.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I wanted to go back to something that Eric said about world-building, because Order of the Phoenix is one of those books that really takes us to places that we may have heard about in passing, but now we actually get to experience them. I’m thinking about the Ministry of Magic, the Hog’s Head, later in this book St. Mungo’s, right? So this is one of those books where we finally get a chance to experience what these places have to offer, and man, the Hog’s Head definitely has some interesting things to offer us.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s funny reading back this description of the Hog’s Head, because my view of it is now what I see in the Wizarding World theme parks, and it’s attached to the Three broomsticks, which I don’t think is canon…

Micah: It’s clean.

Andrew: Yeah, and it’s clean, too. Right. [laughs] It’s like, they couldn’t possibly make it… I mean, it’s not sleek and sexy; it is definitely a bar that you would see in suburban England, in farm country. But yeah, it is noticeably cleaner. And they’ve got that big hog’s head behind the bar, and it moves and oinks every few minutes. It’s definitely one of my favorite places in the Wizarding World park. But if I were stepping into it in the book, I probably wouldn’t really want to be there.

Eric: No, definitely not.

Laura: I don’t know; I love dive bars, so I think I would give this a chance.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: A chance.

Eric: Laura, what constitutes a dive bar? Because there seem to be inches of filth on the floor in this place.

Andrew: Yeah, isn’t that too far?

Laura: Maybe, but I think it also depends on the interpretation of the person walking into it. I think it’s very clear that Harry doesn’t want to be here, right? I don’t know; I like places with character, and I feel like the Hog’s Head definitely has character, so I would give it a try.

Andrew: True.

Eric: [laughs] If I were to go into the Hog’s Head, I would probably bring with me my best counter-jinxes for food poisoning, and some kind of healing charm, because it’s dirty, it’s dingy, and for some reason, Aberforth is wiping the glasses down with his own dirty rag, a dirty rag that seems to have never been washed.

Andrew: Augh! No thank you. I’ll bring my own glass.

Laura: Well, Flitwick did recommend bringing your own glasses, so that’s a very good point.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He did, but what is going on? Does he…? How is Aberforth in business, is a question I wanted to ask. This place trades on, obviously, less savory people coming and drinking, but if you can’t even wash a glass, you should not be behind the bar, dude.

Andrew: Well, so like Laura, a lot of people like dive bars, and they have their bars that they frequent. And I bet at one point, the Hog’s Head was a significantly nicer place, and as time goes on, Aberforth does a progressively worse job of keeping it up, and now he’s at the point… maybe he owns the place; maybe he doesn’t lease it, and he doesn’t really need to impress anybody, and he doesn’t need to make a lot of money, so he has his regulars, and that’s fine, and then every once in a while, somebody comes in to form a group that they want to hide from the Ministry.

Micah: I’d play a bit of devil’s advocate, though, and say that experiences can be deceiving, and this is probably exactly how Dumbledore would want Aberforth to be set up. We know that there’s some tension between the two of them, and obviously, when we first read Order of the Phoenix, we don’t have the context for the backstory of what happened with Ariana. But I wonder if, because this is a magical world, that people see what they want to see. They see a dirty bar, they see dirty glasses, they see a dirty rag, but maybe that’s all a bunch of charms. Maybe that’s just perception, and in fact, the glasses are clean, the floor is clean… I don’t know, but… maybe I’m taking it a bit too far.

Laura: No, I don’t think so, because I don’t think the appeal of the Hog’s Head is to go for their drinks or whatever food they might offer; the appeal is that it’s somewhere that you can go and be highly anonymous.

Andrew: It’s a good point.

Micah: I like that. Who knows? Like I said, maybe the glasses look dirty, but in fact, they’re not going to do you any more damage than drinking out of a mug at the Three Broomsticks. Let’s talk about Aberforth.

Andrew: Yeah, you love this guy.

Micah: [laughs] Well, we don’t even know who he is right now. He’s just the barman.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And he “sidled toward them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.”

Eric: [laughs] Hey.

Andrew: Hmm, why is that?

Micah: I wonder why.

Andrew: And I love that his first words to Harry was just, “What?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Because this is the antithesis of Albus Dumbledore. Albus Dumbledore: well-spoken, has all these amazing lines… and then Aberforth’s first word is, “What?” It’s just a perfect contrast.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, really throws you off the scent. Did any of us, when we were reading this book for the first time, suspect that this was Dumbledore’s brother?

Andrew: Right. No.

Laura: I didn’t.

Andrew: If Aberforth walked up and said, “What do you want to drink? It is our choices that tell us who we really are.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That would have been suspicious.

Laura: “You must choose between what is right and what is easy.”

Eric: That’s a funny mental exercise, is to picture Albus instead of Aberforth behind the bar.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

Micah: It is noted that the bar smelled of goats, and I wanted to know – and maybe this is a question for J.K. Rowling – what exactly do goats smell like? And would you ever walk into a place and say to yourself, “You know what? Smells like goats in here.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, I think… I was reading a couple interviews because I wanted to get to the bottom of why Aberforth loves goats so much, and it seems like J.K. Rowling dropped that little descriptor in there as a throwback to Goblet of Fire, when Dumbledore had said that Aberforth got in trouble due to the spells he was casting on a goat, so it was a connecting of the threads, if you will. It was a little reference for readers, so they could be like, [gasps] “Is this Aberforth? Another goat reference?”

Micah: Then I think, to Laura’s question earlier, maybe we should have been quicker on the uptake. If Harry is saying that this man looks vaguely familiar to him and this place smells like goats…

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: I’m sure there were theories out there after Book 5 was released that this barman was, in fact, Aberforth.

Andrew: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Micah: But what do you imagine it smells like, though? Is it like when you go to a farm or a petting zoo and it has that musty smell?

Laura: That’s what I think.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. You’ve been to a petting zoo. Goats do have a smell.

Andrew: And Micah, you don’t have to pretend that you don’t know what goats smell like. I mean, you obsess over goats yourself, and you have…

[screaming goat sound]

Andrew: Right, you have that goat. You know. Don’t act like you’re above knowing what goats smell like.

Eric: Well, that goat is plastic, to be fair.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, really? You don’t say.

Micah: Yeah, it’s not scented.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Can somebody send Micah a scented goat, please?

Eric: Yeah, we need to get on that.

Micah: [laughs] I was just going to say, that company that we referenced for the holidays, they should make a goat-scented candle that you can purchase.

Andrew: Oh, there you go. Yeah, Laura would buy that. She loves a good dive bar with a goat smell.

Laura: Yep.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: I’m afraid to google it, because I’m sure it probably exists.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: What, goat candle?

Micah: Goat candle, yeah.

Laura: Oh, I’m sure it does.

Micah: Goat-scented. Let’s see. Hold on.

Eric: The most interesting thing that I find about just how dingy and Aberforth being in charge, is maybe it is all a ruse, truly all of it. I mean, maybe Aberforth does have a thing for goats, but I was thinking back to what I said earlier in the chapter about Dung being there and telling Dumbledore about Dumbledore’s Army, but now I’m concerned that I might be misremembering it. Maybe it was Aberforth who actually tells Dumbledore about Harry’s group and everything that happens. Aberforth… even in the last book, when Dumbledore was like, “I’m not even sure my brother can read,” there was a funny joke about that. But clearly, Aberforth is competent enough that he can read, and he passes on, so it’s just… the platform to discredit Aberforth is… and I don’t think it’s a brotherly rivalry. I think genuinely, Albus goes out of his way to pretend that Aberforth is nobody, is out of the picture, is an oddball, when in fact, he’s using Aberforth really as a spy, basically.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: So I’m looking it up now. Dumbledore does eventually know about the meeting, but we don’t know if he heard it from Aberforth first or Dung first, at least from what I’m seeing.

Eric: Yeah, there’s potentially two Order members there.

Andrew: Yeah. And did Dumbledore know that the place smelled like goats? How much did he know about this meeting?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I would just like to point out that I Googled “goat-scented candle,” and among the scents that came up was a butterbeer candle.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Smart advertising by that person.

Laura: Yeah, they were like, “Okay, for search terms: goats.”

Micah: Yeah, good SEO by that person.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right, exactly.

Micah: There’s also… I’ve learned that there is goat milk soap by googling “goat-scented candle.”

Laura: Oh yeah, that’s a thing.

Andrew: We’re getting everything but a goat-smelling candle, unfortunately. Somebody make that for Micah, please. But so the whole goat thing… this has been a running joke here on the podcast, and I thought since goats are brought up in this chapter, we should take a little detour. What is going on with Aberforth and goats? At an event at Carnegie Hall over ten years ago now, an 8-year-old asked J.K. Rowling, “In the Goblet of Fire, Dumbledore said his brother was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat.” And apparently, when this kid said this, J.K. Rowling buried her head and started laughing.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Wait, were we there for this? Yes.

Andrew: Yes, we were. And the 8-year-old continued, “What were the inappropriate charms he was practicing on that goat?” J.K. Rowling said, “How old are you?” He said 8.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: J.K. Rowling: “I think that he was trying to make a goat that was easy to keep clean, curly horns. That’s a joke that works on a couple of levels. I really like Aberforth and his goats. But you know, Aberforth having this strange fondness for goats – if you’ve read Book 7 – came in really useful to Harry later on, because a goat, a stag, you know. If you’re a stupid Death Eater, what’s the difference? So that is my answer to YOU.” And I still remember her going, “to YOU.” [laughs] So she has an answer for adults. And let’s face it, Aberforth is sexually attracted to goats. I mean, that’s absolutely what she is implying. We did tweet her from the MuggleCast account a few days ago, asking, “What is the adult answer to this question?” She has not replied, unfortunately. But everyone, please like that tweet, so maybe it floats to the top of her mentions.

Micah: Can she reply, though? I mean, is that…? Does it meet Twitter’s Terms of Service?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Can she say what he’s up to?

Andrew: I see a lot of graphic stuff on Twitter. I think that’ll be okay.

Eric: J.K. Rowling banned from Twitter for posting an answer to an old question about goats.

Andrew: [laughs] I’m retweeting our tweet right now. Maybe that’ll help her notice it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: But yeah, so it’s funny, right? It doesn’t carry the story forward at all, but J.K. Rowling’s got a weird mind sometimes.

Laura: I don’t think people give Monty Python enough credit in terms of its influence on this series. There’s a lot of her humor that’s very Python-esque in these books, and this is one of those things. It’s not a direct reference to Monty Python, of course, like the fact that the password to the Gryffindor common room was “Cockroach Cluster” – that is a direct tip of the hat to Monty Python – but this just feels very in line with that brand of humor, so I think that she was heavily influenced by that, and that comes through in the books.

Andrew: It’s just one of those things. If you’re a child and reading this, you don’t think twice about it, but reading it later, you’re like, “Huh, okay.”

Laura: Yeah, it’s like when you go back and watch kids’ movies as an adult, and you catch on to all of the breadcrumbs that were left for the adults, and you’re like, “Ohh.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, I mean, the other thing is, if he’s really into that, there’s a whole forest full of centaurs that he could probably explore a relationship with? Instead of…

Laura: I think they would wreck him.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Like they do to Umbridge at the end of the book.

Micah: Wait, by the way: fanfiction. Was there ever anything like that? [laughs]

Laura: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: What about with Aberforth and his goat? I’ve got to imagine there’s fanfiction.

Laura: No!

Eric: I hope it was consensual. That’s all I’ll say.

Laura: Can it be consensual? Can a goat consent? [laughs]

Andrew: No, no.

[screaming goat sound]

Eric: Only if it’s a transformed goat. Only if it’s, like, goat Maledictus. Somebody tweeted us that the goat was Credence.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that was a good theory. I could buy into that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: No!

Micah: I just realized, is the reason that I got this goat because it screams, and that’s what the goat in the Hog’s Head does?

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

Eric: Every time you do that, think of the plight of Aberforth’s goat.

Andrew: All right, it’s time to move on.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: You wanted to bring it up.

Andrew: [laughs] We’ve gone too far.

Micah: So shifting gears, let’s talk about Ron and Aberforth. Not in that way.

Andrew: Okay, no screaming.

Micah: But he thinks that he could swindle the barman for some firewhisky, and I was thinking – again, this is all about perception versus reality; looks can be deceiving – I think it’s highly unlikely Aberforth would sell anything to Ron besides what he could get, which would probably just be butterbeer.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: What do you guys think?

Laura: Agreed.

Andrew: Yeah, Ron’s got a little chip on his shoulder for some reason.

Laura: Yeah, he’s too confident.

Andrew: He feels like maybe because the atmosphere is so relaxed in here, and this is such a different world to him, he feels like he could get it. But yeah, I don’t think he could. You can ask for firewhisky at the Hog’s Head in the Wizarding World parks, though, right?

Micah: I think so.

Laura: Is it just Fireball?

Micah: Probably.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, or whiskey, I think. I don’t know.

Micah: With some goat milk thrown in.

Andrew: They have a whole bar back there. They don’t advertise it, but I’m pretty sure they’ve got a full bar back there. I’ve brought Fireball to the Wizarding World theme park, one of those little shots of it.

Micah: Flasks?

Andrew: [laughs] No.

Micah: You regularly keep a flask on you, don’t you?

Andrew: Oh, yes, I’m an alcoholic.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: No, but I’ve taken a little shot of Fireball to the park with me, then pour it into my butterbeer, which, of course, is non-alcoholic, and they never made an alcoholic version because they want it to taste the same for everybody, whether or not you’re a kid or an adult. So yeah, and it’s actually really good. It’s perfect. I don’t want to say I recommend bringing alcohol into the park, because that’s probably not allowed, but bring alcohol into the park and pour it into your butterbeer. It’s really fun.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, Micah and I actually had a secret… we did one of the secret drinks at the Hog’s Head, didn’t we?

Micah: Yeah, we did. It was their version of a Long Island iced tea.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a drink not on the menu, and it’s a Hog’s Head iced tea. I think I’m remembering that correctly.

Andrew: But is that official secret, or is it just, like, that bartender who does it for people? You know what I mean?

Eric: I got the feeling that it was official unofficial.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: We were told about it by the person we were with, and we all got it and it was amazing. And it’s kind of like a Long Island; it’s just… but it is a lot of different alcohols, as goes in a Long Island, and so I do think they have probably a full bar back there.

Micah: Yeah, it set me up well for getting on the Hagrid ride.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, yeah, I bet.

Eric: Waiting in line. It’s a breeze.

Andrew: Oh, I thought you were going to say it made you nauseous.

Micah: Maybe I had it afterwards, because I just…

Eric: I think we all had it afterwards.

Micah: I think it was after. Yeah, I needed a drink after that ride.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But that goes to your point, Andrew; they clearly do have a full bar at the Hog’s Head if they’re making their version of Long Island iced teas.

Andrew: Yeah, which is interesting. I don’t know why they do that, but they do.

Micah: Eric, I know you wanted to talk a little bit about how this place stays in business. We touched on the dirty cups and the crappy floor, and Flitwick saying that you need to bring your own cup, but anything else you wanted to trash on the Hog’s Head about?

Eric: I mean, occasionally when they have groups of 25-30 students who are dejected by the level of education they’re receiving at Hogwarts, it does a little boom for business. Six Sickles times 25; Aberforth got a couple Galleons out of them. But yeah, it just doesn’t seem like it’s a tenable business – what’s the word? – strategy. The Hog’s Head exists for the purposes of the story because it has to. And we know that it attracts an entirely different clientele; people who want to do the shady dealings that are good for the plot need to go there, but it doesn’t… and J.K. Rowling doesn’t really touch on the fact that there are… it is an inn as well; there are rooms above it, which is where I think Trelawney had her interview, and Aberforth again stepped in and grabbed Snape from overhearing the prophecy. Aberforth has been at the center of all of Albus Dumbledore’s dealings for a real long time, and it’s very well-concealed behind this facade. But yeah, besides being Dumbledore’s secret base of operations in Hogsmeade, the Hog’s Head does not understandably stay in business.

Andrew: I don’t think anything in Hogsmeade really is there to make a lot of money, stay in business. It’s just… in these wizarding communities, everybody’s just, I don’t know, following their passion. Living their life. I don’t know. Cut this out; this is stupid.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: No, I actually, honestly, genuinely felt that that was true when you were saying it.

Andrew: Yeah. Remember a few months ago I said everybody’s weird in the wizarding world? Basically, that’s what’s going on in Hogsmeade, too. Everybody’s just weird. They don’t care about the Google reviews of the Hog’s Head.

Micah: Yelp?

Andrew: They’re not doing things to get five star reviews; they’re just doing it to make ends meet.

Micah: Yeah, I would assume the Yelp review for the Hog’s Head would not be very good.

Andrew: No.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But there’s a… look, and I bet that they wouldn’t take the wizarding world version of credit cards either. I think that’s a cash-only bar.

Andrew: Yeah, so they don’t have to pay taxes on any of that.

Micah: Exactly, exactly.

Andrew: Aberforth totally hates taxes. Sorry.

Micah: Come on, I mean, there are places we all walk into where we say to ourselves, “How does this place stay in business?” And it doesn’t have to be a dingy-looking place like this. I mean, there could be other places where you think to yourself, “They still sell this?”

Andrew: Right.

Micah: You know what I mean? So I feel like the Hog’s Head is a version of that. But let’s talk about the formation of Dumbledore’s Army. There’s quite a large group that shows up at the Hog’s Head. All of the Hogwarts Houses are represented except for Slytherin, and I wanted to note that because I think it’s important. House unity is something we’ve talked a lot about as we’ve gone through Chapter by Chapter of Order of the Phoenix, and it’s actually nice to see that there is pretty solid representation from both Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff.

Andrew: I like how you say, “House unity is important,” and then you say, “No Slytherins; that’s nice to see!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Is it simply because they just couldn’t be trusted?

Laura: Yeah, I doubt Hermione would have thought that there was a single Slytherin that they could trust at this point.

Micah: Is there a Slytherin out there that we would consider being a member of Dumbledore’s Army? If we had to pick one?

Andrew: Probably just the ones that we don’t know about.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Because any Slytherin that J.K. Rowling lifts up, usually they just… she’s doubling down on this idea that Slytherins are bad people.

Laura: Maybe Leta Lestrange?

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: That’s a good one.

Laura: If she existed in this timeline. At this point, the Houses are so polarized that I don’t know that they could trust anyone in Slytherin, and I don’t think that it’s inherently because as soon as the hat says you’re a Slytherin, that means you’re evil. I just think that at this point there’s just so much of a divide between them, and they’re all… as we see a little bit later in this book, Umbridge has Slytherins totally on her side.

Eric: I think also we find out that Hermione wasn’t that trustful of even the people she did invite. These 25 people, by signing the paper that they do, she heavily jinxes that and, I think, doesn’t effectively tell people what she’s done. She kind of glosses over the fact that there’s this huge magical enchantment. But it shows the level of secrecy that Hermione is employing, shows that she’s wary and that she really doesn’t at this point trust even these House members, so bringing a Slytherin on was completely out of the question.

Micah: Agreed.

Andrew: We’re in the very early days, this is a very sensitive subject, and we can’t risk it this early on. I mean, you can’t really trust any of these kids, really. And we’ll talk about this sign-up sheet in a moment, because that seems extremely risky as well.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely. Putting your name down on something like this would definitely make me nervous.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Hard pass.

Micah: Now, this is something that Harry was concerned about from the get-go, and he says that Hermione had “decided to display him like some sort of freak,” because of all the questions that are being posed to him, particularly as it related to what happened to Cedric and with Voldemort at the end of Goblet of Fire. I thought Hermione maybe could have thought a little bit more about how to get things going, because of course people are going to want to know about Cedric. That is just inherent in anybody who is at Hogwarts and was there last year and is now there this year.

Eric: It’s definitely natural, and I think Harry needs to concede or realize that these people who want to know… and the vast majority of them have showed up to hear this story, at least as part of a perk of going to this dingy bar, because why else would you? He has to concede that it’s not just about, “Oh, this crazy Harry Potter who’s been so officially discredited has to… let’s get his side.” They genuinely are interested in figuring out what they don’t know. I think that there’s no malice, like, “Oh, Harry is a freak, and needs to tell us…” It’s really because they’re ready to listen, and I think there needs to be a little bit of a credit given to everyone who did show up. They’re also getting rid of their Hogsmeade trip; they’re spending it in here instead of at Zonko’s or… I mean, I know we know Fred and George already went there, but to the other places they would go. They’re giving up a Saturday for this.

Andrew: Yeah, I think we’ve touched on this before, and I feel like these kids deserve to know. I don’t blame them for wanting to hear directly from Harry; I think that’s very natural, and I would want to hear directly from Harry as well. So I think in hindsight, maybe this could have been planned a little bit better, and they could have just come out with the story. Harry could have just come out with the story right out of the gate, got the elephant in the room out of the way, and Harry would have them in the palm of his hands, and he could easily get these people signed up for Dumbledore’s Army.

Laura: Yeah, I think also, this is an example of one of Hermione’s blind spots, which is that she’s only able to see the desire to learn, so when she’s communicating this opportunity to people, she sees them lighting up and she sees them being really interested and assumes that they’re interested for the reason she’s interested, right? But she’s forgetting the fact that she has such access to Harry that she actually knows what happened, whereas something that was pointed out to Harry earlier in this book is, “Hey, all the school knew was that you came back holding Cedric Diggory’s dead body, and that Dumbledore told everyone Voldemort was back. That’s it.”

Micah: Yeah, it definitely could have been a better job done on the part of Dumbledore, in terms of informing the students of exactly what happened. But I think he also probably, at the time, didn’t want to put Harry in the position that Hermione is putting Harry in now. It’s one thing to talk about it in front of 25 people, never mind hundreds of people. Maybe it’s not Harry that has to do it, but still. And the Ministry obviously wants to cover this up as much as possible, so Dumbledore and Harry are certainly not getting any help from them. But I also wonder if it’s a bit of insecurity on Harry’s part, too, because putting aside what happened to Cedric, if he’s to talk about what happened, it’s another one of those instances where there’s a bit of luck, right? Priori Incatatem, I don’t think he was expecting for that to save his ass, much like his ass has been saved in the other books. And so I thought it would be interesting – because they do talk a lot about his accomplishments throughout the series – if we were to give OWL grades to the things that he has done in these first couple of books, what grades would we assign to them?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: So number one, in Sorcerer’s Stone, is besting Quirrellmort by touching his face and rescuing the Sorcerer’s Stone. Do we think that…?

Andrew: Outstanding. That’s an O. Outstanding.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Right out the gate.

Andrew: He’s young, first year at Hogwarts. He’s already bringing down Voldemort. Outstanding.

Eric: And with his touch, too. Voldemort was so ill-prepared to deal with that.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah. Imagine having so much power with your hands.

Micah: Okay.

Eric: Agreed.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: How about killing the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets? Let’s not forget, he had some assistance.

Laura: I think that’s… I would give that an Exceeds Expectations.

Eric: I agree.

Laura: Because we have to remember, he killed the Basilisk, but he also destroyed a Horcrux.

Andrew: Right, and nobody expects you to be able to kill a giant snake when you’re 12 or 13.

Eric: Well, and one you can’t even directly look at.

Andrew: Right. If I saw that thing, I would definitely run away, so Harry is definitely a better person than I am. Run away and cry.

Eric: But he does get mortally wounded from the encounter and would have died, so definitely Exceeds Expectations.

Micah: But you have to give an assist to Fawkes, though, because without Fawkes, Harry… yeah, we only have two books in the series.

Eric: [laughs] Those were good books.

Andrew: I’ll give an O to Fawkes. Good job, Fawkes. O for you.

Micah: How about saving himself and Sirius from all of those Dementors in Prisoner of Azkaban?

Laura: Outstanding.

Eric: I would say Acceptable.

Laura: Really?

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m not as impressed by that one. I’m more impressed by killing a giant snake and Voldemort.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: But he produces a fully-formed Patronus, which is something that even adult wizards can’t do, and he uses it to fend off a huge amount of Dementors.

Andrew: Yeah, but Laura, think about doing that in the video game. It wasn’t that hard. You just hold A and then you press the B and you’re done.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: It wasn’t difficult.

Eric: My argument is not going to be about the video game, but that’s a good point. But my argument is I think even though it’s an impressive feat, we cannot fully attribute it to Harry, because Harry sees what he thinks is his dad doing it, and when it comes back around, he says that the happy thought he thought of that was so powerful that it crushed them all and scared all the Dementors away, was the thought that he had already done it before, which is cheap. It’s not the same kind of self-fulfilled luck or wonderful dancing around the swinging tail of a giant beast, centuries old beast… it’s not the same. It’s just not. It’s standing there and going, “I have self-confidence. Boom.” Acceptable, okay? It got him through the book. It saved some lives. It was a good call.

Laura: Ooh, we’re going to have to agree to disagree.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: All right.

Micah: Okay, we can do that. For Goblet of Fire, actually, two things: One is the completion of all the Triwizard tasks. The second is what I mentioned earlier, defeating Voldemort in the graveyard for at least enough time for him to escape and get back to Hogwarts.

Laura: I would give that an Acceptable.

Micah: Okay. Which part? Both?

Laura: Definitely completing the Triwizard tasks.

Micah: Because he had help from…?

Laura: Literally with every single one, yeah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I would give him an Exceeds for fending off Voldemort, though.

Eric: Yeah, again, he was boosted by luck, but you’re facing down the barrel of a gun, and how Harry behaves is exactly the way that it… I’m with Andrew; I would run away and cry.

Andrew: Anytime he faces Voldemort, that’s an automatic O for me.

Eric: [laughs] I heard that in the Simon Cowell voice, Andrew. “It’s an O for me.”

[Everyone laugh]

Andrew: I was thinking Randy Jackson. “It’s a no for me, dog.” [laughs]

Eric: Oh yeah, “It’s an O for me, dog.”

Micah: Sorry, dog.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Pitchy, pitchy.

Micah: And then just to include one thing from Order of the Phoenix, defeating the Dementors in Little Whinging.

Eric: O.

Andrew: That was good. In all these moments, poor Harry is acting with virtually no preparation. He sees none of this coming. And really, it’s all O-worthy, but we’re trying to think a little more critically here.

Eric: I would give the Dementors at the beginning of Book 5 the O, versus the Dementors at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, because in the beginning of Order of the Phoenix, he’s drained, he’s not a particularly happy camper, but for the sake of his cousin’s life, he has to muster up the ability to do a Patronus. And again, it’s fully corporeal, and again, it kicks their asses. So I would say, again, that the Order of the Phoenix thing should get an O, and it’s better than the Prisoner of Azkaban.

Micah: So as this group is forming, there’s a lot of back and forth with different characters. J.K. Rowling does a good job of shining a light on Zacharias Smith and Luna and Ernie Macmillan. And the bit with Zacharias is funny because I believe at one point Fred and George threaten him with sodomy.

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

Laura: Yeah, they kind of do.

Micah: I forget what they say they’re going to shove up his you-know-what…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but it’s probably one of their defective products.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: There was a bit of humor in this chapter. I did want to call out Luna because she’s definitely not feeling Hermione at all so far in Order of the Phoenix. She mentions that Cornelius Fudge has an army of Heliopaths, and I think Hermione basically says that they’re not real, or that Fudge definitely doesn’t, and Luna says, “Just because you’re so narrow-minded you need to have everything shoved under your nose before you -“ and I think it’s Ginny that cuts her off, but yeah, Luna coming through strong in this chapter.

Andrew: That’s a good line, especially after Harry is asked to tell the Cedric story.

Micah: And there’s truth to that. I mean, Laura kind of alluded to it earlier with Hermione always being of the mindset of learning and not necessarily thinking through things in other lenses, and I think Luna kind of… well, not kind of; she does bring that to light.

Laura: Yeah, and I think that this is how Hermione gets balanced out since she’s not in Divination anymore, because the last character to treat Hermione this way was Trelawney telling her, “You don’t have the inner eye; you desperately cling to your books as though those are the only things that matter.” And since Hermione is not in Divination anymore, Luna is stepping in. I think it’s a good thing. But do we ever get it confirmed whether or not Heliopaths are real?

Micah: They’re supposed to be these fiery spirits, and I put a picture of one in there that in my mind definitely would not scream Cornelius Fudge.

Laura: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it wouldn’t scream Fudge, but I think they could exist within the universe. And here’s the thing: At least for the Quibbler‘s sake, I hope Heliopaths are really a thing that can be around, because it’s double duty for Xenophilius to be publishing these allegations if you have to, one, believe that Fudge is using them, but two, believe that they’re even a thing that exists in the first place. It would be so much easier for Xeno to publish something that actually exists is what Fudge is using. You know what I’m saying?

Micah: They look like something maybe Death Eaters would ride.

Andrew: Yeah, that would be cool. It would also be cool if these actually made an appearance in Fantastic Beasts. J.K. Rowling just subtly confirms that these are real by having them appear in that movie series.

Eric: That reminds me, though, isn’t it the Matagots are the cats that they are…? They are spirits. They are spirit beasts. So I would actually say that Crimes of Grindelwald lends a lot of credence – not intended, the pun – to the idea that Heliopaths exist.

Micah: Yeah, possible. I mean, to me, this just looks like J.K. Rowling’s version of a Rapidash.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, and then Ernie does a great job of pointing out something we’ve talked about in the last couple of episodes, the fact that Umbridge is an ineffective professor who just is not preparing them well for their third year exams. And you get to see, from the perspective of a Hufflepuff, that that’s important to them. They want to pass their exams. Time to sign the contract – not in blood – but this is scary, man.

Andrew: Yeah, I wouldn’t do this. I wouldn’t put my name on this piece of paper. This is a very… this is a group that could get in worlds of trouble if they were found out, and it seems really risky to be putting your name on this. I don’t care how organized Hermione is; crazier things have happened in the series. She could very well lose this piece of paper, or somebody could make a copy of it and that could leak. Like, no. Just no. I would not put my name on this.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Also, can we just talk about how not slick Hermione is here? She’s very much like, “Uh, I think we should all sign this paper…”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: How should she have done it?

Laura: I think that she probably just could… she’s smart; she could have taken note of who was there…

Andrew: Oh, yeah, mental note.

Laura: … and then applied the jinx in some… you know what I mean? There could have been a way to apply the jinx, I would think, that didn’t require making people sign their names.

Andrew: Or maybe just first names, or everybody comes up with a nickname and writes that down, and then you could still do a roll call with those nicknames later. Yeah, there’s definitely some other options here.

Laura: Or you have people sign it at the beginning of the meeting. Yeah, I feel like people don’t think as much about putting their names down at the beginning of something, but then at the end of it, when they’re like, “Oh, this is kind of subversive; maybe I shouldn’t put my name on here…”

Andrew: Right. “You want to hear what happened in that graveyard? Put your name down.”

Micah: What happened? Oh, I thought you were going to tell me, Andrew.

Andrew: No, no, I’ll tell you another time. When we’re at the Hog’s Head.

Micah: But I think there’s a level of defiance about it, too, especially for characters like Fred and George. They can’t wait to write their names down.

Eric: Right. Yeah, I think each of the students takes their own time getting to the mental state of “Oh, this is fun, breaking all the rules.” But that’s fine. Your mileage may vary. People are… what they are doing is technically not… well, it’s not against the rules now, but as of their first meeting, it will be. They’re openly defying Umbridge, but they have to. The whole reason these people showed up is the possibility that they could get taught and really learn things that they all agree that they need to know. They’re all there because Umbridge’s lessons suck.

Micah: Right. And the chapter really wraps up with there needing to be a decision about where they’re going to meet, how frequently they’re going to meet, so there’s still decisions that need to be made. And what I found a little bit odd was the way that the chapter does end, and that’s with them talking about these budding relationships. So Ginny being with Michael, and then Harry and Cho, which we’ve seen building up over the course of these first 15 or so chapters. But I just thought it was funny that Harry turns to, I think it’s Hermione, and says about Ginny, “Oh, is that why she talks now?” Because she finally feels comfortable around Harry; she has a boyfriend and she’s not enamored with him anymore.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I don’t know. I feel like it almost demeans Ginny’s character, in a way, for Harry to say that about her. Am I the only one?

Laura: I think it also shows how little attention he’s paying to her, because she’s really been out of her shell for this entire book.

Eric: But she had a shell; she’s out of it. It is a funny falling action to discuss relationships, and how Cho lingers at the end of the… she’s gathering her purse or bags or straps or whatever. And even her friend Marietta is like, “Come on. Cho, come on.” But she wants to stay back so she could, I don’t know, wave to Harry or something.

Micah: Watch, yeah. We’ve all been there.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Something else I think that’s interesting here is that we get Michael Corner and Cho Chang. Don’t they end up getting together after Harry breaks up with Cho and Ginny breaks up with Michael?

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: That would be super convenient.

Laura: I think that that’s actually what happens.

Andrew: No, it is. Yeah, I’m looking it up right now.

Micah: Get me the fanfiction on that, Laura.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: So Harry’s ex and Ginny’s ex get together?

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: That’s what happens.

Eric: That’s totally unexpected.

Micah: It’s because when Harry was making out with Cho he accidentally said “Cedric,” and…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That would be me for sure.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But one other point to raise here before we wrap up the chapter: Eric, did you have this in here? It’s how Michael Corner is referred to?

Andrew: Oh, that was me. Yeah, so he’s referred to as “the dark one,” which I don’t think has aged well. To just call him “the dark one” in the book? Eh.

Laura: I wonder if this is – and UK listeners, I’d be really interested in your feedback here – I wonder if this is cultural and that it’s not necessarily intended to refer to race, but rather somebody with dark features. So dark hair, dark eyes…

Andrew: Yeah, it’s possible.

Laura: Because this is definitely how he’s cast in the film.

Andrew: Right, he’s white.

Laura: Because I looked up the actor, and he is white, but he has very dark hair and dark eyes, and I wonder if this is a way that you commonly refer to somebody who just has darker features.

Andrew: On the other hand, the movies did switch the race of some characters…

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: … so it wouldn’t surprise me if they just cast him incorrectly.

Laura: But I’m also not sure that the books ever explicitly state Michael Corner’s race at all, apart from this descriptor.

Andrew: No.

Laura: And J.K. Rowling never shied away from describing Dean Thomas as black, for example, so I’m not sure why she would openly say, “Dean Thomas was black,” and then be like, “Michael Corner was the dark one.”

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: It just feels like a disconnect, so I’m wondering if this is intended to refer to something different than that, just to play devil’s advocate a little bit.

Andrew: Could also just mean emo. I’ve described you as the dark one, Laura, at times.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Because you’re emo as hell.

Laura: I was such an emo kid in high school, and I’m still an emo kid in my heart, and you can’t take it away from me.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right.

Micah: Yeah, I don’t know if it applies to emo, just because we don’t know Michael very much at this point…

Andrew: Yeah, I’m just kidding.

Micah: … so appearance would be probably the only point of reference that we have.

Andrew: He’s the dark one who heads into the Muggle world and shops at Hot Topic.

Laura: Hell yeah.

Micah: It’s also not good because the only other “dark” reference that we really have in terms of referring to somebody in this series is the Dark Lord, so not a good move, probably, by J.K. Rowling here.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: All right, well, that does it for Chapter 16 of Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Time now for the Umbridge Suck count. Somebody put something here.

Eric: Yeah, I did. We touched on this a moment ago, but the fact that all these people show up… Umbridge sucks so badly, her classes are so ineffective, that 25 people who don’t know each other all show up at the mere whisper of there being an alternative educational option, to a bar that’s weird and dingy, and they give up their Saturday to do it. So I say we should add to the Umbridge Suck count because she is clearly… it’s not just the trio that she’s not reaching with her – I don’t know – the usefulness of the subject matter, but across grade levels, Umbridge sucks so badly that all these people are like, “Oh my God, we need to start learning. We’re not learning a thing.”

Micah: Does that mean that the Umbridge Suck count is now at 28 or 52?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I think we should…

Micah: You only have to play it once no matter what, but I think it’s a fair question.

Andrew: I think just one. Up by one.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I think that there is enough suckage coming throughout the rest of the book that we don’t need to inflate the score at this point.

Andrew: Yeah. So let’s add one to the board.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: [laughs] Oh my God.


Connecting the Threads


Andrew: And now let’s connect the threads.

Laura: A couple of small threads in this chapter, but they are really interesting. The first one is about Sirius. Harry feels a pang at making his first Hogsmeade trip of the year; this is because he’s recently told Sirius not to come to Hogsmeade to see him because he’s afraid that somebody will recognize his Animagus form. But Harry is now remembering, when he lines up to go to the village, that he wouldn’t be going if it weren’t for the fact that Sirius had signed his permission slip in the third book. The other thing that jumps out at me here is this whole environment of a student-led resistance in the Hog’s Head. Sirius would have loved to be here for this, and I think that given the opportunity, he would have done a better job emceeing this whole thing than Hermione did, just because Sirius has this experience with the Order. So I think it’s one of those moments where he couldn’t be there, but Harry really felt his absence.

Andrew: “So kids, you want to be a rebel. Let me teach you about that.”

Laura: [laughs] “Except for the fact that… the going to Azkaban part. Don’t do that.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Don’t go that far.”

Laura: And then also the Hog’s Head is a really important thread to connect to other moments in the series, particularly the fact that this is where Dumbledore met Trelawney all those years ago, and where she gave the iconic prophecy that kicked off all the events of the series.

Andrew: Cool.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, time now for MVP of the Week. I’m going to give it to Hermione for putting this whole thing together in the first place.

Eric: Yeah, it worked out.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Ron for mostly making sense and keeping the meeting on track. He’s the one who really, with the assistance of Fred and George, whips people into line and keeps the focus on the goal at hand, as opposed to being obsessed with what happened to Cedric Diggory. So I’ll give it to him for being a good friend. Even though he’s not a great brother in this chapter, he is a good friend.

Micah: I’ll give my MVP to the guy who has the best dive bar in Hogsmeade.

Laura: Heck yeah.

Micah: Aberforth.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And he’s hosting the first official meeting of Dumbledore’s Army.

Eric: I think the meeting happens in spite of him entirely, but okay. I’m going to give it to…

Micah: No Hog’s Head, no meeting.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, okay. Actually, you’ve convinced me. Okay, that makes sense. Thank you, Aberforth, for doing the bare minimum to uphold and maintain this establishment.

Andrew: Thanks for keeping the walls up.

Eric: [laughs] Which with magic is so much easier to do. I’m going to give mine to Ginny for rounding up some more people for the cause, Michael Corner, of course, but also his two other Ravenclaw friends, Anthony Goldstein and… I forget the other guy… Terry Boot. But that’s a situation where Hermione did not reach out to them; it was actually Ginny talking up the meeting. So Ginny was actually a really good hype man – or hype person – for Hermione’s idea, so I thought that was a really good moment of them working together.

Andrew: I think it’d be a great running joke if you gave the MVP of the Week to Ginny every week, even if she wasn’t even in the chapter, but you just grasped for straws and tried to come up with something.

Eric: Is it thin here? I think she really did…

Andrew: No, no.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Andrew: But it just made me think, because you’re a Ginny fan, it’d be funny.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Anyway, let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “The Greatest Of All Time,” otherwise known as “The GOAT.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Get it? Double meaning.

Micah: Got it.

Andrew: I was really proud of that one. Dreamt that up at 5:30 this morning.

Micah: Good job.

Laura: I’m going with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “These kids are not slick.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “Goat [censored].”

Andrew: Please censor that.

[screaming goat sound]

Laura: Just censor it with the goat screaming.

Andrew: There you go.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 16, “Where Nobody Knows Your Name.”

Micah: I love it.

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s episode, send it on in – MuggleCast@gmail.com – or go to MuggleCast.com and use the contact form. We also love to hear from you, really hear from you, so record a voice memo on your phone if you have a moment, and send that to MuggleCast@gmail.com.

Micah: If you have a phone.


Quizzitch


Andrew: All right, it’s time for Quizzitch.

Eric: Yes, last week’s question: What does Luna say Fudge’s army is made out of? Real cool to have this opposition happening during the time that they are forming an army. But the answer is, of course, Heliopaths; we mentioned this during the chapter discussion. Whether or not we believe they exist is another thing. But correct answers were submitted to us over on Twitter, as usual, by people including Andrea Feezor, KngofKngs, Jason King – lots of kings – Samwise Potter Skywalker, Count Ravioli, Hannah E., The Cat’s Pajamas, Reese Without Her Spoon, Michael not Eric, and Tara.

Micah: Michael not Eric?

Andrew: What?

Micah: Why not just say Michael?

Eric: Yeah, somebody’s name is Michael not Eric, and they’re at @MichaelnotEric on Twitter.

Micah: All right.

Eric: I wonder if that’s a reference to Alohomora. I’m not sure. Nope, it says “I am Michael. I like stuff.” Okay.

Andrew: Interesting. I like stuff, too, Michael.

Micah: I like stuff too, yeah.

Eric: That’s weird because my Twitter bio is “Big fan of stuff.”

Andrew: Oh, maybe you’re his role model. Anyway, what is next week’s question? This week’s question?

Eric: Next week’s question is an interesting one, a moment I completely forgot occurred in the books, although there are many, to be fair. Who visits Harry during History of Magic?

Andrew: Huh. I don’t know.

Eric: Harry gets a visitor next chapter. It’s crazy.

Andrew: All right, coming up in bonus MuggleCast today, we’re going to play an old favorite, Make the Music Connection. We haven’t done that in a while, so we’re looking forward to doing that, and I think we’re going to connect these songs to Order of the Phoenix. So this will be fun, and I’m a little scared because we haven’t done this in so long. You can listen to that over on Patreon, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get two bonus MuggleCasts every month, and you get a lot of other benefits as well, including access to our livestreams; you can join us on Saturday or Sunday morning each week and tune in as we record. You will also get this year’s physical gift. You will also get early access to our show notes. You will also get early access to the episodes themselves, and a whole lot more. At this point if you pledge, you’re going to have access to four years of bonus material, so there’s a lot there, and it’ll keep you entertained for a while. Also, by the way, we have some new artwork that we made; check it out on our social media channels. And we were able to get that made thanks to our listeners supporting us via Patreon. It’s because of that support we get to do cool things like this. We made this new artwork to reach new audiences. We learned at Podcast Movement, which was also funded by Patreon, that we should have some artwork or some photos depicting our smiling faces together, and we said, “Wait, we would actually have to get together to take a group photo. To heck with that; let’s just get some artwork done.” And it was a win-win. We didn’t have to see each other, and we got some beautiful artwork made.

Laura: Yep, just the way we like it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Thanks to Emily Kardamis for that.

Andrew: Yeah, she did a great job; check it out on our social media channels. And it’s littered with Easter eggs, including a goat, so we hope you enjoy that. Again, Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can support us. Thank you. We really appreciate your support. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Goodbye.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #451

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #451, Murtlap Milkin’ (OOTP 15, The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we’re discussing Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” But first we have some more Muggle Mail, and actually, even before Muggle Mail, I just want to update everybody on last week’s discussion. We were talking about which Sirius in the fireplace was better, ember Sirius or flaming Sirius?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: As I am affectionately calling him this time around. We asked on Instagram, “Which version do you prefer?” And 38% preferred ember Sirius, while 62% preferred flaming Sirius. I’m actually surprised the results were that close to being split.

Eric: Yeah, that’s 1/3 and 2/3. That’s crazy.

Andrew: I mean, ember Sirius sucks.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Which one do you think Lupin prefers?

Andrew: Um, why does that matter? I’m thinking flaming Sirius.

Micah: I’m just throwing out questions.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Lupin has Sirius’s whole body because he’s next to him in Grimmauld Place, so he’s good.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true, yeah.

Eric: But yeah, ember Sirius, to me, just strikes me as being… the effects weren’t great, probably rushed, like you guys were saying. Flaming Sirius to me is the epitome of… that’s what that should look like. That’s what they’re going for.

Andrew: We got a great theory from Tyler. He wrote in,

“I really enjoyed this week’s episode and the discussion about Sirius in the fireplace. My theory is that for Goblet of Fire, they didn’t want to pay Gary Oldman for that small 30 second scene, so they just recorded his voice and recreated his face they best they could without filming him. I hate that they cut the big scene in Goblet of Fire with the three meeting him on a trip to Hogsmeade, but we know this would all be solved with a Harry Potter TV show. Andrew needs to prepare a pitch for WB. Thanks for all you guys do!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: What do you think? Is that true? They didn’t want to pay Gary Oldman for Goblet of Fire, so they just recreated him?

Laura: I mean, wouldn’t they have to pay him for his voice and his likeness?

Andrew: Probably. Well, but in theory, wouldn’t just recording his voice be cheaper than getting him into Leavesden and all that?

Laura: Eh, I think it’s more likely that Gary Oldman just wasn’t available.

Andrew: Oh. Yeah, maybe. I don’t buy into this theory necessarily, but it is a funny way to think of it, so thank you, Tyler. We also got an email from our social media manager, Jule, who emailed us just like I asked Pat to do when he had some feedback about what he heard on air. [laughs] Laura, do you want to read what Jule had to say?

Laura: Sure. Jule wanted to respond to the point that we mentioned about Hermione doing Harry and Ron’s homework for them. Jewel says,

“In Book 4 we see she is still very insecure about where she stands with them, so it doesn’t surprise me at all that she might sometimes feel the value she adds to the friendship is her ability to get them through their classes. When I was her age, I definitely let my classmates walk all over me by helping them with notes or homework or tests. It made me feel valuable, and I felt like it enabled my friendships. Of course, as I got older and realized how dumb this was, I found out who my real friends were, but at 15 I just wanted to be liked and that’s the way I went about it. So, here’s a message to young listeners: Hermione is a great role model in many ways, but it takes her a while to learn that she doesn’t need to do her best friends’ homework for them to like her. They’ll be annoyed at first because they’re teenage boys, but her true friends will like her anyway!”

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: That’s a really great point, Jule.

Micah: You know what I’m taking away, though, from these emails? Is that Andrew, the only listeners we have are your boyfriend and our social media producer.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I think I’m setting up a bad culture at MuggleCast where people we know and love can’t approach us with feedback. I think I’m regretting telling people we know and love to write in. I’m sorry. You guys can approach us again; talk to us face to face. I apologize. HR is going to come after me.

Laura: Hypable has HR?

Andrew: Yeah, do you have any problems you would like to speak to them about?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: We’ve hired this really delightful woman named Dolores; she’s in charge.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: The Hypable High Inquisitor.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: God. Educational Decree number 42: Don’t talk to us face to face. Email us if you have any feedback about the show. Well, a couple of our listeners also called in.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Janelle. I have a theory relating to Episode 450. When Fred gives Katie the Blood Blisterpod at Quidditch practice, I always thought that he did it on purpose and that his look of horror was fake. In a previous chapter, I believe, it said that Fred and George were having trouble coming up with an antidote or a way to stop the nosebleeds. I think he gave it to Katie on purpose, so that way they could go with her to Madam Pomfrey to see what she used to stop the nosebleed, then they could use that in their Blood Blisterpod. Let me know what you guys think. Love the show.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: I love that theory.

Laura: Me too. And Janelle, I also love your audio quality!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That was such a beautifully recorded voice memo, but also, great theory.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: That is something that Fred and George would absolutely do.

Eric: I agree. But I think they could do it without Katie, right? I mean, they could just try it on one of themselves, like they say they do, and then go to Madam Pomfrey and say, “Hey, how would you fix this?”

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah.

Laura: Don’t we think Madam Pomfrey might be kind of wise to that, though? Maybe they’re using Katie because they know Madam Pomfrey will attend to her, whereas if one of them were to go in, I’m sure she’s gotten wind of them testing their products on first years, and so while she might patch them up, of course, but I don’t think that she would let them in on the secret of how to do so.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Devious.

Andrew: “What did you guys do now? And no, I’m not going to help you come up with a solution.”

Eric: “It was our brother, ma’am. He hit her with a Quaffle.”

Andrew: [laughs] And here’s another voicemail from another Laura.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast. I just wanted to send in a quick correction about last week’s episode. When Harry was in the owlery, Filch came in and accused him of mailing Dungbombs or stink bombs, and it was actually Umbridge that tipped him off. Hermione, later in the book, reveals that she was really suspicious of that because she thought that that was kind of a weird thing for another student to accuse Harry of, and she believes that it was a way for Umbridge to go through Harry’s mail – or students’ mail – early on before she could do it as High Inquisitor. So I just wanted to give credit to Hermione for being super smart. Also last week, when you guys were reading Percy’s letter, Micah’s scary voice was both amazing and terrifying at the same time. Thanks, guys. Keep doing what you’re doing. Love you, bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Love you too, bye.

Micah: [in a deep, sinister voice] I have no idea what she’s talking about.

Laura: Oh, I do, because we were talking about… we were like, “Why is Filch…?” Oh, you’re talking about your voice, Micah.

Micah: I’m talking about my voice, yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m slow on the uptake here. But also, see, this actually was me sending in a voicemail to correct MuggleCast.

Andrew: You would. Yeah, I don’t know why we didn’t catch on to that. Everything happens for a reason in this series, so we should have caught on to that. Our apologies. Saturday morning brain.

Laura: I feel like that’s one of those things… we’re rereading the books, and we kind of catch on to things as we go through them, right?

Andrew: True that, true.

Micah: Yeah. But it’s next level, though, for Umbridge, really, this early on to be trailing Harry? We know she’s trying to goad him into getting detention – does it again in this chapter – but the fact that she’s really taking control of things, going through students’ mail, this is really government interference at its worst.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I’m impressed, but not surprised. She did start the year by sending Dementors to Little Whinging.

Laura: Very fair.

Micah: One other thing I thought about, too, with Janelle’s voicemail – not to go back – but I thought maybe the direction she was going to take it was that Fred and George gave Katie the Blood Blisterpod so that practice would end, because Ron was in just such a bad position with the Slytherins being there.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: That’s true.

Eric: So it was like a mercy killing.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: If you want to look at it that way, yeah, sure.

Andrew: That’s a good way to put it. Thanks to everybody who sent in feedback, and Laura, I will be putting you in touch with Hypable HR after today’s episode.

Laura: Great.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and like I said, we are discussing Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” And we’ll start with our seven-word summary.

Micah: Umbridge…

[Eric sighs]

Micah: Look, this has got to be better than last week. Last week was terrible.

Laura: Yeah, last week was rough.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: … oversees…

Laura: … the…

Andrew: … Hogwarts…

Micah: … professors…

Eric: … teaching…

Laura: … classes.

Eric: Yay!

Laura: I mean…

Andrew: I was thinking “habits.”

Laura: Yeah, that works too.

Eric: “Styles” works.

Laura: Yeah. “Habits,” “styles,” “methods.”

Eric: “Students.”

Andrew: Yeah. It’s a really interesting chapter.

Laura: Ugh.

Micah: So if we were to grade the seven word-summary based on the OWL scores – we learn a lot about OWL scores, actually, this chapter – what would we give it?

Eric: Pass.

Micah: Just a simple P.

Laura: Yeah, I think I’d go with “Poor.”

Eric: Oh.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, Exceeds Expectations, because it was intelligible, and there were a lot of options left to us by the last word.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: So this week we’re going to take a little bit of a different approach to Chapter by Chapter. We’re not necessarily going to follow things in chronological order; I think that that’s something that we’ve done in the past. And we’ll make sure we hit on all the key points, but we really want to pull the meat out of the chapters and have the best possible discussion, so we’ll see how this goes.

Andrew: It’s going to go great.

Micah: Well, you planned it, so it has to.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: And what I really like about this chapter is there is so much Umbridge, and we are going to make sure that that Umbridge Suck count goes up quite a bit at the end of our discussion.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay, is that why you like that there’s a lot of Umbridge?

Micah: Yeah. What’s wrong with that?

Andrew: You just like seeing her do sick things, it sounds like?

Micah: What are you implying?

Andrew: That you’re messed up. Go on.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Andrew is like, “You’re sick, Micah! You’re sick!”

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve never heard somebody say, “Ooh, I like a chapter that’s filled with Umbridge.”

Laura: No, I get what Micah is saying; it pushes the story along.

Andrew: Got it.

Laura: It’s a much needed chapter in terms of pacing. I will say, as a former teacher, this chapter gave me so much PTSD.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Because you were evaluated?

Laura: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it’s pretty standard practice – especially when you’re in your early teaching career – to be observed, and even if the person doing the observing is doing everything right and not attempting to undermine you, it’s still a very nerve-wracking experience. And I have also had the experience of somebody who was directly interfering with my classroom environment…

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Laura: … so it’s not a fun place to be.

Andrew: It’d be like if J.K. Rowling was listening to this episode of MuggleCast, and we knew that she was listening. It would be very stressful, because we would want it to be perfect and get everything right.

Laura: Right.

Micah: Well, not anymore. We don’t care whether she listens or not.

Andrew: Ohh.

Micah: I don’t really care if she comes on the show.

Andrew: I still care.

Eric: I would be interested in seeing what OWL grade she gives the seven-word summary.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She would say, “Just stop doing that segment, please.”

Laura: “Troll.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: To answer your question, though, Andrew, it’s great to see Umbridge matched up against her peers in this chapter, and you really start to get the full sense as to why she is at Hogwarts. A lot of it prior to this has just been her interrupting Dumbledore, or her giving Harry detention, and there’s just much more to her that we get to see in this chapter, and so that’s what I meant when I said that.

Andrew: Got it.

Micah: “Enjoyed” is probably not the best word to use, but… and it starts off really kind of where we left off in the last chapter. And we finally get to see why Percy was so anxious for Ron to take a look at the Daily Prophet the following morning, and we learn that the Ministry is seeking educational reform and that Dolores Umbridge has been appointed the first ever High Inquisitor, and Percy is all over this article. I’m not quite sure why, because in my mind, there is no credibility to Percy being quoted in an article…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and speaking on behalf of the Ministry. He’s not the PR rep for Fudge.

Andrew: It is awkward, isn’t it? And don’t most people in the wider wizarding world…? They might know of the Weasleys; they’re a big family, right? They’re redheads; they’re the redheads in the wizarding world. So a lot of people probably know this family, and they probably know that a lot of the Weasley family members are on Team Harry, I would think.

Eric: Well…

Andrew: And so it’s awkward to read Percy going against his family.

Eric: He is the Junior Assistant to the Minister, so he is the mouthpiece, I guess, if you consider that there’s probably also a Senior Assistant to the Minister, and the Minister himself, and maybe a PR department. So this is the guy who’s the highest rung of the ladder that the Daily Prophet could get in a pinch that shared their views, and the Ministry also wants to look busy all the time. So this is a guy who’s really super close to the Minister, though it might be objectively a couple steps removed, but who can speak, who has the authority to speak in the way that they get him to.

Andrew: Really, it should be Fudge being interviewed for this article, though, I think.

Micah: I want to go off what you said, though, Andrew, because I like the idea of the Ministry and the Daily Prophet positioning a Weasley – when the Weasley family, as you said, has so long been supportive of Harry – right in mainstream media. Here’s a member of this family who is basically speaking out against Harry and against Dumbledore. It’s not a great look for the Weasley family.

Andrew: There’s a crack in the Weasley family. One’s gone rogue.

Micah: We also get to hear from some… anxious parents who have voiced their concern…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And Dumbledore haters.

Micah: … about what’s going on at Hogwarts, and the fact – Andrew, prepare yourself – that Hogwarts is… fill in the blank.

Andrew: A security nightmare! Woop-woop-woop!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, you don’t have the sound effect this week.

Andrew: I’m on the road. I don’t have the sound effect ready.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: But I’ll download it; hold on. I didn’t prepare that. But go on; I’ll play it later.

Micah: [laughs] And of course, they interview some of the best people that you possibly could for this article. One Lucius Malfoy, who we learn is 41 years old. That’s a odd piece of information that they dropped in there.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And he’ll appear…

Laura: Sidebar: All of these parents are so young.

Andrew: Yeah, they have their kids young.

Eric: Well, the war is on and all that.

Laura: [laughs] So you gotta get it on?

Eric: That’s directly lifted from another page of another Harry Potter book, for sure.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: There you go, Micah.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But yeah, the interesting thing here – and I know that this article is vaguely making some kind of attempt to be well-balanced – does not disclose that Mr. Lucius Malfoy, “concerned parent,” is a member of the Board of Governors for Hogwarts School. That is, to me, a conflict of interest if they don’t state it.

Andrew: And I’m also wondering how many anxious parents are there, really? There’s Lucius. There’s Seamus’s mother. It’s probably an exaggeration by the Ministry/the Prophet, right? That there are a bunch of anxious parents out there?

Laura: Yeah, I think this is a good example of “many people are saying this” without citing any kind of source or information.

Eric: It’s an excuse for the Ministry to respond as if these concerns were more mainstream.

Andrew: Right, and they interview the chief nemesis of Dumbledore. They didn’t have to look very far; they just needed one person, and Lucius was a very easy get.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: He was probably itching to do this.

Micah: And let’s not forget he’s also a Ministry employee, so now you’ve quoted two people that work within the Ministry about the situation.

Andrew: Right. Well, and then to Eric’s point, they don’t disclose that Lucius is a Ministry employee, but then a few paragraphs later, they quote Wizengamot elder Griselda Marchbacks, and they add right after her quote, “For a full account of her alleged links to subversive goblin groups, turn to page 17.” They’re immediately discrediting her.

Eric: Exactly. She’s the one who’s got some sense. She and Tiberius Ogden, whose name may be familiar to Harry Potter fans, both resigned in protest. How cool is that? Good for them.

Andrew: Yeah, but then they discredit her…

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: … because they did go against the Ministry.

Micah: I think it’s Marchbanks, just if we want to note that.

Andrew: Oh, did I type it wrong? Okay, sorry.

Eric: And what is a subversive goblin group, by the way?

Andrew: Yeah, I was wondering that as well.

Micah: So this is just an opportunity to seem fair and balanced but then immediately discredit the person by, as you said, being linked to subversive goblin groups, and I’m interested to get Laura’s thoughts here because this is a direct reminder, maybe, of certain media outlets in the United States that claim to be fair and balanced but truthfully are not. And the way that they go about it in this manner, on the surface, it seems like they are showing both sides of the story, but in truth they’re not, because they’re immediately trying to undermine that person a few sentences later.

Laura: Yeah, of course. Like you said, it’s the attempt to appear as though you’re being journalistic and you’re maintaining a level of integrity in your reporting, but by immediately referring to goblin groups as subversive… I wonder what those groups are. They’re probably groups about goblins’ rights or goblins being able to be treated like equal beings in the magical world, but in this world where goblins and house-elves are treated as lesser beings, that could be considered a subversive thought, especially looking at this particular group of people who are running things right now. So yeah, definitely very reflective of certain news outlets that exist now.

Eric: Something else that caught my eye during that was that she is also an elder. This is the news quickly scuttling away from her official title. In order to be an elder at the Wizengamot, you need to know your stuff, right? This is a very respectable position. It’s like saying longtime generals or longtime people in positions of authority for decades are lesser because of whatever other thing else they want to cook up.

Micah: But then they immediately turn around and tie her to these groups that are supposedly trying to undermine the authority of the Ministry. And let’s not forget that goblins are a group that has long been suppressed in many ways, and not unlike house-elves, they’ve essentially been forced to work in the banking industry and been treated very, very poorly. So I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody like Griselda Marchbanks was supportive of a group like the goblins and them advocating probably for their own rights.

Andrew: Another interesting part of this scene is we’re introduced to Educational Decrees, and they begin at number 22. Now, I looked around online; I couldn’t find the previous 21 Educational Decrees, and I’m wondering what they were. Does anyone remember anything about those? Did we ever hear anything?

Eric: Here’s the thing: so the Educational Decrees in this book, they become kind of a thing, right? There’s chapters named after them, and it’s a big “What’s the next one Umbridge will pass in her clear and rampant abuse of power?” The first 21 Educational Decrees, it used to be a method by which the government, the Ministry of Magic, could help Hogwarts. I assume one of those Educational Decrees was establishing the Board of Governors, something very innocent, something very just necessary for the running of school. Figuring out a budget, appropriating house-elves…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: A couple of… over the last thousand years that Hogwarts has existed, or over the last several hundred years that the Ministry has existed, they weren’t the same Educational Decrees of the like that you see in this book.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Eric: They were just probably bland, very innocent but necessary steps that the government just has to pass a resolution to be able to do this. But this is… what we’re seeing is the perversion of that in this book.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. They could have added some other Decrees, though, after what happened in Harry’s earlier years, like “No three-headed dogs shall be allowed on premises.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “No student shall be issued a Time-Turner,” or “Love potions shall not be used.”

Eric: Why is that, Andrew?

Andrew: Because it’s rape, love potions.

Laura: [laughs] I think Eric was hoping for some sound effects.

Eric: A sound clip.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: I was hoping for a… but okay, your answer was better, yeah.

Andrew: Sorry, I took that to a dark place.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Andrew, we don’t know, though. Perhaps those Educational Decrees were put into place and we just don’t know what they were, so it’s possible that some were created after Harry’s first or second or third year.

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be a great Pottermore article from J.K. Rowling, spelling out all the previous ones.

Eric: Hey, wait, now that we own Potter-no-more, we should write it.

Andrew: Oh my God, let’s just write all the articles we wish existed on Pottermore.

Laura: That would be hilarious.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, like “Students aren’t allowed to attend deathday parties.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Why Hogwarts is a security nightmare, by Andrew.”

Micah: “No more Triwizard tournaments.”

Eric: “Don’t listen to the plumbing. Don’t listen closely to the plumbing.”

Andrew: “Why there should be a Harry Potter TV show.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: This sounds like a great opportunity.

Andrew: It does.

Micah: Does it still redirect to Harry Potter Fan Zone?

Andrew: It does. Can we just have Andy publish these articles on his website? I don’t feel like setting up a whole new website, so… anyway…

Micah: It’s a good point.

Andrew: Also, we’ll point out just a little thing: 21 previous Decrees? 21 is a multiple of seven.

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: I see what you did there.

Andrew: 21 is 12 backwards, another big number in the Harry Potter series.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: All right.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling thought of these things, I know it.

Eric: You know the coolest thing? Real quick; this is a sidebar. How you can tell if a number is divisible by three?

Andrew: How?

Eric: If you add up the numbers individually as if they were single digit numbers, and that’s divisible by three, the whole number is divisible by three.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Eric: It’s real cool.

Micah: That was Eric’s educational moment, brought to you by…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: That was Educational Decree number 50, or whatever.

Eric: Nice, I have a new segment.

Micah: Is that divisible by three? It’s got to be divisible by three.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The focal point of this chapter, really, though, is Umbridge’s visits to each of the teachers’ classrooms, and this has to put the school on edge. Teachers are essentially on the chopping block. And Laura, you mentioned this earlier; gives you PTSD, thinking back to the times when you were teaching and there was somebody who was coming in to evaluate your abilities. But one thing I was wondering is, is there not already a system in place at Hogwarts to evaluate teachers? And is Umbridge even qualified to evaluate some of these subjects? She’s a terrible Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, so what makes us think that she can evaluate Charms or Potions or Transfiguration?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, she’s absolutely not qualified to be doing this, but I think it’s a fair point to observe that it doesn’t seem like there’s any kind of standardized program in place in order to ensure a certain minimum level of quality in these classes. I mean, I’m sorry, but look at Professor Binns; he puts his students to sleep. He’s using such an archaic teaching method, which is just lecturing straight at the class for an hour, two hours, and not initiating any kind of dialogue with the students. So I think it’s fair to say that Hogwarts could do with a little bit of observation, but not this. This is not anything that is helping the education of the students; this is all about the Ministry retaining a level of power above the educational institution, which, if we’re talking about real world scenarios, this has happened. I mean, when you have a tyrannical government in charge, one of the first targets is always educational institutions, because those are where so-called “subversive” ideas are born.

Micah: Great points. And you can see that a lot of these teachers are… the emotions and the reactions really run the gamut in terms of how they respond to Umbridge being in the classroom. But somebody like Trelawney, who we all know is a bit of a kook…

Andrew: [laughs] A kook.

Micah: … she is being put into a really challenging position, because if we think about her discipline and what it is that she’s trying to teach these students, the expectation level of somebody like Umbridge is so high in terms of what a professor like Trelawney can deliver, and I don’t personally think that it’s fair that she’s being asked to make a prophecy in that moment. It really kind of undermines her profession and her abilities as a Seer.

Andrew: Yeah, and as Trelawney brings up, “The Inner Eye does not see upon command,” and even though we think she’s a kook, we know that she’s right; she just can’t pull these predictions out of a hat. I also do feel really bad for Trelawney in this moment, because you can tell she’s nervous as soon as Umbridge walks in, and J.K. Rowling writes that she made a “brave attempt to speak in her mystic tones, though her voice shook slightly.” So she was visibly nervous, and I’m wondering if part of it is because she does know that she’s a fraud.

Eric: Yeah, and Umbridge does peg her as a fraud quite early on, and that’s why she asks her to predict something on the spot. But here’s the thing: Even if Trelawney were a real Seer, none of these students are, and so the class… there’s a little bit of a disconnect here between Divination, between being able to be a Seer and have prophecies and all that stuff, and then teaching Divination. She could have had just a straight-up class where she’s instructing all the students to read their tea leaves and actually gleaning something out of… right now, they’re going through dream diaries, and apparently that’s something that happens after Umbridge leaves where they go through Harry’s dream, but because Trelawney’s default is to predict danger – and she does it to Harry later in the chapter, again, after Umbridge leaves – she’s all about the doom that it spells, and this… because that’s her default. She’s clearly not a good teacher, but she could get by without having to make a real prediction. Her job as teacher of Divination is not to make real predictions, which is where Umbridge fails. Umbridge just wants to discredit her. The job should be teaching kids how to use these skills to give themselves a leg up in the art of their own fortunes.

Laura: You know what this makes me wonder? I wonder if Divination was a class at Hogwarts before Trelawney was assigned to the post. Because we know that Trelawney was only given this job so that Dumbledore could keep her close and safe, so I wonder if this was even really considered a discipline at Hogwarts, because it is something that is just… it’s so individual; so few people are born with the ability to See that it seems a little bit futile to try and teach people how to do something that’s just an innate ability, right? So I wonder if this is just an excuse; this is Dumbledore’s cover for why she’s there, and maybe it was never something that was taught before.

Eric: That’s really interesting.

Micah: But you can take your Divination OWL, can’t you? That would lend me to believe that it’s been around for some period of time.

Eric: It’s definitely a discipline, but to Laura’s point, I don’t know if Hogwarts taught it before Trelawney, because we also see Firenze… oh, it’s Firenze in this this book, right? Also teaching it later this year. So that’s also as much for Firenze’s safety, because he’s not safe among his herd, among his own people, because he’s kind of an outsider that Dumbledore allows him refuge in the school to teach this class. So that’s sort of twice that Dumbledore could have used the guise of Divination as a subject that’s being taught at Hogwarts to really safeguard two people that are on his side or are valuable to him.

Andrew: I’m looking this up right now, and Trelawney and Firenze are the only known Divination teachers, and the Harry Potter wiki also says that Dumbledore had originally decided that this course should no longer be taught at Hogwarts; it being considered obscure and inaccurate to most. However, seeing the applicant for the teaching post was the famous great-great-granddaughter of a celebrated Seer, Dumbledore decided to give her a chance. When she made a prophecy that impressed Dumbledore, she was granted the position, so there you go, Laura.

Laura: It’s very interesting.

Micah: Laura, the voice of reason.

Laura: Oh, thank you.

Andrew: Laura could see something we couldn’t. Maybe you’re a Seer! Oh my God!

Laura: [laughs] Maybe. I think… also something I wanted to bring up here, and this is a very exaggerated comparison, right? Because you have these two polar opposite characters who are very much caricatures of two different ends of the spectrum, but it does remind me of some of the scrutiny that qualitative and humanitarian disciplines receive from more data-driven disciplines. I’ve definitely encountered folks in the field of education who don’t have a ton of appreciation for the humanities and don’t really see their usefulness, and this interaction between Umbridge and Trelawney really reminds me of that, that because Umbridge doesn’t understand, she just doesn’t respect it as a discipline. So even if Trelawney was a good teacher, I think that she was already at a massive disadvantage the moment Umbridge walked in the room.

Andrew: Does Hogwarts ever have guest speakers? They just come in for a day and talk about what they do? Maybe that would have been a great role for Trelawney. She comes in once a year, she gives a presentation, and then she’s out.

Eric: Right.

Micah: I like what Laura said, though, because I think that the lack of understanding and maybe even the lack of care that Umbridge has towards something like Divination, you almost think that she comes into that class knowing exactly what it is that she’s going to try and do to push Trelawney’s buttons. And I’m also curious, too, if all of these classes receive the same types of evaluations, because how you would evaluate a Divination class versus a Potions class has to be vastly different, and that goes to what I was saying earlier about qualifications for Umbridge to be evaluating these professors. But just one other thing on these two – and I think Laura said how they’re at such different ends of the spectrum – it’s really ironic that Umbridge asks Trelawney to make a prophecy or a prediction, which is that practical application, where in her own class, Umbridge is so by the book and not willing to allow her students to do more practical types of things. So I just thought it was a little bit comical that she’s evaluating teachers on that when she herself is not engaging in that kind of teaching.

Eric: That’s impressive, yeah.

Laura: Yep. It’d be funny if somebody walked into Umbridge’s class and was like, “Can you show me how to produce a full Patronus right here in front of everybody? Or can you show me how to defend yourself against one of the Unforgivable Curses right here in front of me?” Surely she’d be like, “Uhh…” feel very put on the spot.

Andrew: Yeah. In bonus MuggleCast today, we will talk about the specific prediction that Trelawney makes for Umbridge, and if Umbridge thought back to that prediction, once she does meet her [laughs] multiple demises in the remainder of the Harry Potter series. So let’s move on to McGonagall’s class.

Micah: Which I think probably, as readers, we were all anticipating.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: It seemed like Harry was anticipating this moment as well.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And McGonagall is not taking anything from anybody in this chapter, and she could care less, quite honestly, that Umbridge is in her classroom.

Eric: She even ignores her.

Micah: Yeah, straight-up ignores her.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think at one point tells her… doesn’t Umbridge ask whether or not she noticed or received note of the appointment?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and McGonagall says, “Of course I did, because I didn’t react to you walking into my classroom.” Harry feels that McGonagall lost her temper in front of Umbridge; he brings that up later in the chapter, but I don’t think McGonagall did.

Laura: No, I don’t think so either. McGonagall actually… she was doing exactly what a teacher should do during classroom observation, which is ignore the observer and just act like it’s business as usual. And Umbridge was interfering with that, so she smacked her down, but I don’t think that she lost her temper.

Andrew: Yeah, she was witty, she was sharp, but she wasn’t angry. She handled it the best that she could, I think, especially considering that Umbridge was interrupting her.

Micah: Do you think that Umbridge respects McGonagall in any way, kind of peer to peer? If she were to respect anybody, I feel like McGonagall might be that professor.

Laura: I think she’s intimidated by her. I don’t know about respect.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s someone who’s been at Hogwarts for a while. She’s very well-respected amongst the teachers and Dumbledore, and Umbridge is probably impressed by the fact that she, Umbridge, can push McGonagall’s buttons and McGonagall won’t react in the way that she’s expecting. So yeah, I think there’s respect for her.

Micah: And we know from Umbridge’s backstory that she’s always failed, prior to the Ministry, to rise in positions of power, and it’s referenced at Hogwarts that she failed to do this as well when she was a student, so I wonder if seeing McGonagall basically be second-in-command to Dumbledore, if there is some sort of level of respect there.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: But I agree on the intimidation point. I do think that she fears McGonagall a bit as well.

Andrew: In the scene, Umbridge also asks how many years McGonagall has taught at Hogwarts, which is also this week’s Quizzitch question, and McGonagall says 39 years, yet in Crimes of Grindelwald, we see her at Hogwarts. So there are some theories about how this could be. Maybe she was a teacher assistant back then. Maybe she was teaching back then, left Hogwarts, then came back. There’s also been theories that McGonagall has been using a Time-Turner, and somebody actually called in with this theory. We were getting it a lot when Crimes of Grindelwald first came out. In my opinion, there’s no way that McGonagall is jumping around the timeline to teach. That just does not make sense to me. Why would she do that?

Laura: Yeah, well, and also, using a Time-Turner doesn’t impact your age, does it?

Andrew: Right, exactly. She’s younger. She’s actually younger, so that doesn’t make sense. But what are everyone’s theories here as to why she was at Hogwarts in Crimes of Grindelwald?

Eric: It’s a retcon. It’s clearly just…

Andrew: Fan service.

Eric: Whoever wrote that script didn’t care enough about previously established…

Micah: Can you explain what a retcon is?

Eric: I forget what it stands for. It’s something… it’s a contradiction to canon that has been retroactively – there we go…

Andrew: There it is.

Eric: … retroactively adjusted or fixed in… usually when it’s given an explanation, but this time we don’t have one. It’s just one of those things. So it would be… it’s a retcon that she was at Hogwarts that early in the timeline when previously she stated “39 years this December,” which means 38, so in 1995 she had been there for 38 years, so 1957 she came to Hogwarts, if I’m doing that right. That’s a full 30 years after Crimes of Grindelwald is set, was supposed to be.

Laura: Yeah, and also, don’t we know her actual birthday? And according to that, she would have been a child during the second Fantastic Beasts movie?

Andrew: I think people did the math to figure out her birthday through various pieces of information. In fairness to J.K. Rowling, maybe she will give us more information in the next movie.

Micah: I don’t think it’s coming, so don’t expect it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think she has to. I think she has a responsibility.

Micah: I don’t think… she may play an active role; she may not. It could have just been one of those nice moments for Potter fans during that scene at Hogwarts to have another familiar face. And personally, I just don’t see her playing much more of a role in future films. I think it was just nice to have, and I think especially given the reaction, you’re not going to see her moving forward.

Andrew: Casual fans don’t care about the math, though.

Eric: Yeah. She was tremendously well cast; even the very few moments, I think, in Crimes of Grindelwald that we see her, I think she’s excellent. And another reason for having her in Crimes of Grindelwald is to show that even in the ’20s, when there’s supposed to be another headmaster, whether it’s Dippet or somebody before Dippet – it’s not supposed to be Dumbledore running the show – but having McGonagall there also shows that it’s still Dumbledore’s show. Dumbledore/McGonagall, the two person act, are in charge of everything that goes on at Hogwarts, and it’s just a shorthand way of showing how in control Dumbledore is by having McGonagall be his deputy assistant even in the ’20s.

Andrew: I actually bet that we will see her again, because remember that report a few months ago that said that there’s going to be more Dumbledore in the next movie to please the fans? McGonagall could be a part of that, of those Dumbledore scenes. That would please the fans, the casual ones. It may bother us, but most people, I think, will be pleased. Anyway.

Micah: So now you’re saying I need to retract my statement about her not being in the next one.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, I think…

Micah: Or not playing a significant…

Andrew: Well, we don’t know for sure, but that’s my guess.

Micah: It’s a good point. But if she is there, I think we’re just going to need to be completely dismissive of the age factor.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: We’re just going to, as fans, need to accept the fact that they decided…

Andrew: [singing “Let It Go” from Frozen] “Let it go, let it go…”

Micah: Yeah. Perfect, Frozen.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: People need to get into that Frozen mindset and just recognize that she’s being put in the films because she’s another familiar face for Harry Potter fans.

Andrew: As Elsa says, “McGonagall’s age never bothered me anyway.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: But I did look up… the headmaster around that time should, in fact, be Armando Dippet.

Eric: Well, there you go.

Micah: Prior to him, it was Phineas Nigellus Black. Do we want to talk about the other professors briefly?

Eric: Yeah, it’s worth a mention that she stopped in on Grubbly-Plank’s.

Andrew: And Grubbly-Plank had nothing but good things to say about Dumbledore, which Umbridge did not like.

Eric: Otherwise, another really good class by Grubbly-Plank. That’s good. And she also… so Fred and George in the morning say that she also sat in on Flitwick’s, or at lunch they say this. And according to… we mentioned how Umbridge is being disruptive during McGonagall’s, and that’s not what she should do. She also apparently just kind of stayed in the back of the room during Flitwick’s class. I’m so glad she didn’t walk right up to him and ask him about his blood status.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Or his heritage, or something crazy racist.

Micah: Like the movie, where she measures him.

Eric: [laughs] That’s right. In the movie, that’s pretty funny.

Andrew: Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.

Eric: But she does, apparently, ask one of the students – Angelina, who happens to be in the back – whether or not his class is good, and Angelina is nothing but smiles.

Andrew: Why would you measure Flitwick? I mean, that’s… what does that have to do with anything?

Eric: It’s racist. It’s just meant to be completely intolerant.

Andrew: I think in the movie it’s supposed to just be funny, but if you really think about it, it’s pretty awful.

Micah: It is awful.

Andrew: Size doesn’t matter, Umbridge.

Micah: That’s why I really encourage people to go onto the Wizarding World site and read the backstory on Dolores Umbridge, because she is a pure-blood maniac and she has zero tolerance for anybody that does not fit that mold, and it can’t be overstated. And that just goes to show you why she acts the way that she does in this chapter, but also, as we were talking about… and I think it’s why somebody like David Yates chose to include that scene with Flitwick, even though it’s not in the book; it’s a representation of how strong her feelings are about people that don’t conform to the way that she thinks people should be. And it’s a very short read, but it’s worth checking out.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And I mean, Flitwick, according to Fred and George, always gets people through their examinations. After all, this is what Hogwarts is all about, right? Exams.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: And so Flitwick, in regards to the question whether or not Umbridge respects anyone truly, I think she should respect Flitwick for at least being competent. Same with Grubbly-Plank. But because Flitwick is not fully human, and because Grubbly-Plank is a Dumbledore fan, Umbridge will not give those teachers the full marks that they deserve.

Micah: But don’t you think she knows going into this? She may be able to knock Flitwick here, or knock McGonagall there, but she knows the professors she most likely can take down, and that’s her goal in this, is she wants to remove a few of the professors that Dumbledore maybe even put into position himself. Do we assume…?

Andrew: And she probably knew which teachers she wanted to take out before even sitting in on their classes.

Micah: Right, exactly.

Andrew: We do get a scene in Umbridge’s classroom – this happened before she sits in on McGonagall’s class – and she assigns the class a chapter to read. Hermione can’t help, of course, but state that she’s read the whole book already. Umbridge asks her a question about the reading that Hermione correctly answers, but she also can’t help but state that she does not agree with the author, so this causes a kerfuffle, Umbridge takes five points from Gryffindor for Hermione stating her opinion, and then, of course, this annoys Harry, and then Harry gets himself in detention again when he speaks out. I’m wondering why Hermione decided to say that, “Oh, I’ve already read the whole book, and I disagree with the author.” Doesn’t she know that these thoughts would annoy Umbridge?

Laura: Well, yeah, she’s resisting.

Micah: Yeah, and this is a big miscalculation on the part of Hermione, even though she is resisting, and I think it sets up well what happens at the very end of the chapter in her trying to convince Harry to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts. But the wheels that get set in motion as a result of this, as it relates to Umbridge, is not fair to Harry on the part of… I think Hermione needs to be a little bit more aware in this moment and know that Harry is always going to look to come to her defense if she tries to challenge somebody like Umbridge. And I don’t think she was really proving anything by saying that she had finished reading the book. She’s not going to get on Umbridge’s good side, let’s say, in this type of a moment, and so I was actually kind of disappointed in Hermione in this particular chapter for doing this, and it ends up hurting Harry at the end of the day. That said, Umbridge is also looking for any opportunity to get Harry into trouble, and if we look at the example in this chapter, she again finds a way to bring up Voldemort without directly bringing up Voldemort, because she brings up Quirrell and that immediately sets Harry off, and Harry mentions the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head, and we know anytime that Harry brings up Voldemort, it’s going to get him detention.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So I think Umbridge is being very, very strategic in what she’s saying to the class, because she’s looking for that opportunity, and I think that’s what Angelina is trying to tell Harry; that’s what Hermione is trying to tell Harry; that’s what McGonagall is trying to tell Harry. “You have to understand this woman is out to get you; just keep it cool,” but he can’t do it.

Eric: I think, to Hermione’s credit… I think Hermione’s question starts out fair enough, innocent enough. She has read the chapter, so what should she do with this class time? The class is so useless, what can she do? It’s a mark against Umbridge that Umbridge doesn’t have an alternate assignment instead. Well, I mean, I guess, to be fair, nobody expects Hermione to have read the next chapter and the next chapter and the next in advance of the class. She quizzes Hermione and, of course, gets into the scuffle about what Hermione feels. But there should be something else to do. This is just… it’s revealed for what it is, busy work, right? I mean, Hermione… it is a form of resistance, because I think Hermione did expect there to not really be anything for her to do, but Hermione, I guess, could have just not asked and could have pretended to read the chapter again.

Laura: Well, and I think also she’s attempting to make some use of her time in the classroom, because she’s like, “Well, if all Umbridge wants to do is make us read theory, perhaps I can engage in a conversation about the theory and a healthy debate about the theory,” but Umbridge won’t even do that.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And I think, I mean, this is Hermione’s breaking moment, obviously, as we see later in the chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: It’s also interesting that in a chapter where Umbridge is evaluating the other professors at Hogwarts, she – in this moment, in this kind of back and forth with Hermione and Harry – is essentially evaluating the other Defense Against the Dark Arts professors as well. She goes through the list and talks about how unqualified they were, with the exception of Quirrell, who seemed to be okay. But again, that’s the moment where Harry jumps in and responds because he can’t help himself and gets him detention. And McGonagall gets the news of the fact that Harry has gotten another fresh round of detentions…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and she’s pissed now too. She’s like, “Five points from Gryffindor for you not keeping your cool. I gave you some biscuits the last time this happened, but no cookie this time around.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “No cookie for you.”

Micah: It’s a teaching moment, though. I think this is important because – and of course, Hermione is in agreement – but it’s a teaching moment for Harry. It’s showing him that despite everything that’s going on, he needs to keep a level head, and he needs to understand what is going on beneath the surface, and the more that he gives to Umbridge, the more detentions he’s going to get. That said, I think what’s happening in these detentions – and it’s brought up in this chapter – it needs to be brought to somebody in an authority position, because he’s being abused.

Andrew: Yeah, and another thing we’ll talk about in bonus MuggleCast today is how McGonagall would have responded to Umbridge’s detention style, because Harry says that she’d go nuts, but would she? We’ll talk about that over on Patreon. I do have to give Harry credit, though, for still being willing to speak up in class, knowing that he’s going to get himself into detention, knowing that he’s going to have to cut himself again. I mean, that takes some guts.

Eric: I think if J.K. Rowling wrote some of the other scenes where he’s still doing the same thing, where he’s still doing lines and… they’re very… a whole week’s worth of detentions goes by, and J.K. Rowling is like, “Yeah, now his hand was just bleeding more; it’s cool.” But if she had actually shown those scenes, I think we would have sided against Harry. I think it would have been a little bit clearer that Harry is going overboard in his defense. Here’s the other thing: He gets in trouble for talking about Quirrell having Voldemort on the back of his head. We don’t know how much of that is public knowledge. We don’t even know how much of that Umbridge herself can be reasonably expected to suspect. We don’t know what Dumbledore’s report to the Ministry was like on what exactly the goings ons were surrounding the Sorcerer’s Stone. It seems kind of like an inside job that Dumbledore is protecting the Sorcerer’s Stone for his buddy Nicolas Flamel. We just don’t know what the cause of death was ascribed to Quirrell, and so for all Umbridge knows – to play a little bit of devil’s advocate – Harry could be spouting complete and utter nonsense about the Dark Lord.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Laura: Very true, and she’s already conditioned to believe that about him anyway.

Eric: So this round of detentions… eh, might be on Harry.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, they’re definitely on Harry.

Micah: Doesn’t he also get another one thrown his way for responding to Malfoy talking about what happened to him with Buckbeak?

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Yes! I refuse to award an Umbridge Suck count to Umbridge for that particular thing, because it’s Harry again. He’s just so indig… his Hufflepuff comes out, really; he needs to defend his friend Hagrid, and so he’s like, “Well, only because you’re too stupid to listen to what the teacher says.” It just doesn’t… it just reaffirms everything Umbridge thinks about him.

Andrew: Harry wasn’t wrong, but he shouldn’t have spoken out of turn. Harry needs a Twitter account where he can go and be passive aggressive about everything.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: When I’m angry, sometimes I just go onto one of my private Twitter accounts and I bitch. That’s what he needed.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Can we make one for him?

Andrew: Oh, yeah, that’d be great.

Laura: Like, Harry’s private Twitter account?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Angsty Harry.

Andrew: Okay, so we’re going to build out Potter-no-more. We’re going to create a Twitter account for Harry. We’ve got a lot of stuff to do this week.

Micah: And speaking of Twitter, I know we mentioned J.K. Rowling earlier, but it appears that she updated the header…

Andrew: What?

Micah: … with some per… what do they call it? Twitter… it’s not the profile picture.

Andrew: The cover art. Oh, she has a new profile pic, too.

Micah: The cover art.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling, stop using Photo Booth. Everybody stopped using that so long ago.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Use a Snapchat filter. [laughs] No, there… yes, you’re right.

Micah: Do you think she’s got Snapchat?

Andrew: Maybe. I don’t know.

Micah: One other big thing to take away from this chapter was the conversation at the end between Harry, Ron, and Hermione. It is the precursor to the formation of Dumbledore’s Army, and it’s really a great moment of Hermione trying to instill confidence, I thought, in Harry, given everything that has been happening to him throughout the course of this book. One connection I did want to make, though, to Fantastic Beasts is that he is kind of solving his hand in essence of Murtlap, and it is the Murtlap, right, that attacks Jacob in the first Fantastic Beasts movie?

Andrew: Yeah, see? J.K. Rowling loves writing this stuff.

Micah: What exactly is essence of Murtlap? What do they do to that poor creature to get the essence out of it? Do they squeeze it?

Eric: Well, you slit its throat…

Andrew: Nooo!

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: You take a needle; you extract some of his inner goo. He’s got tentacles, these Murtlaps, so maybe you just pluck a tentacle off of his back.

Micah: You squeeze the tentacle like you would maybe with a squid? The ink comes out?

Andrew: Yeah, you milk it like a cow.

Micah: You milk… [laughs] Murtlap milk.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But it is really kind of Hermione, and it doesn’t… I don’t think he thanks her for making it, but she prepared that for Harry. It’s a beautiful thing.

Micah: Yeah, it’s very… I feel like the two really bond at the end of this chapter in a way that we maybe haven’t seen in this series so far. I mean, Ron is present; he’s there. He’s kind of a cheerleader in the background; I don’t want to diminish his role. But it’s really Hermione coming across here as a friend, as you said, making this essence of Murtlap for him, and then convincing him that he needs to step up and help teach those who want to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s the old one-two. Hermione lends a helping hand, and then once he’s appreciative of her, she drops the big idea on him.

Micah: So you think she goaded him in?

Andrew: In a way, yeah. Harry kind of owes it to Hermione, actually, for all the help that she’s given him with homework. This is the least he can do after all this assistance. [laughs] But this scene is also very interesting because Harry experiences a lot of self-doubt and imposter syndrome. So Hermione is listing off the reasons why Harry would be the best for the job – teaching others Defense Against the Dark Arts – and Harry just goes, “Oh, well, I’m not really good at anything… That was luck… If Fawkes hadn’t turned up… That was a fluke… I nearly always had help…” He just can’t believe that he is actually talented. What does everyone here think? Is Harry talented? Did he get lucky? Is it a mix of both?

Laura: I think it’s a mix of both.

Andrew: Don’t tell Harry that.

Eric: Harry has definitely got the intuition. Things seem to work out in his favor. He’s a perpetual source of Felix Felicis before he even knows what that is.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But I think that even in reading the last couple chapters, Harry is like, “Man, now I have to resolve to do better studying,” after Snape gives his essay back with the OWL level grading scheme. Harry knows that he’s not a good student; I don’t think he’d be that surprised if you accused him of being a not good student.

Andrew: He almost might think that he almost wasn’t a wizard. He was with the Dursleys for so long, maybe he never would have been found, and he would have been suppressing this magic forever. But what’s also interesting is that in a moment of rage, Harry says he always did what he did because his back was against the wall as he looked death in the eye, but then he unintentionally admits he has real skills when he says he had to use his own “brain or guts or whatever.” That’s a quote. So maybe he comes to realize in this moment that he actually is talented, because when his back is against the wall, he kicks into high gear and takes down the enemy.

Eric: There’s something to be said for that.

Micah: I don’t want to call it untapped potential, but I think there’s something deep within Harry that knows what to do in these types of moments, whether it’s touching Quirrell’s face or it’s showing that loyalty that is going to… Harry needs to remember Fawkes…

Andrew: A sixth sense.

Micah: Yeah, it’s almost like a sixth sense. Fawkes wouldn’t have shown up if Harry wasn’t loyal to Dumbledore in some capacity, so… and even with the Dementors, he didn’t think that he had the ability, right? He thought it was his father; no way could he possibly produce that kind of level of Patronus. But yet it’s all kind of within him, so that’s why I think of it as untapped potential, and Hermione is trying to draw it out of him and say, “Look, you are good, and you do have these abilities. We need to learn from you. We need to understand how to go about doing these things.” I do think there is a bit of luck involved in some of this – I think there’s always luck involved to some capacity – but Harry is also talented; he just doesn’t realize that he is.

Andrew: And one factor here is that Harry is only 15, so he has reason to be in denial. He’s so young.

Micah: Right, insecure. We’re all insecure about different things at different points of our life…

Andrew: Definitely.

Micah: … so there’s no reason to assume that Harry isn’t going to be. And one thing that I remember is this conversation, the parts about how he had help, takes place in the Hog’s Head in the movie with a bunch of different members of those who want to be in Dumbledore’s Army surrounding him. It was interesting to see it be more of a one-on-one conversation between him and Hermione, with Ron kind of sprinkled in.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think that there is… J.K. Rowling is paying tribute to the trio’s inner relationship, because at this point up in the book, he’s been really mean to them. And he still is; he breaks the bowl with the Murtlap essence in it – and immediately regrets it – because he’s so angry. But it needed to be Hermione who took it upon herself to sell Harry on this whole idea of being a teacher, because that reconciles a lot of what’s been going on with the trio up to this point in this book.

Andrew: Yeah. And then what do we make of Hermione using Voldemort’s name for the first time? Do you think…? It seems like that calmed Harry. Why does that calm him? I’m wondering if it’s because Hermione finally made this direct acknowledgement of the threat.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And also, I mean, she is the smartest witch of her age, so I think that it makes a real difference for Harry to hear her finally have the courage to say it.

Andrew: Yeah, he knew that it was difficult for her to say that, but she did because she really wanted to convince Harry in this moment that he needs to teach this class. It was moving.

Eric: It was very moving.

Micah: Yeah, I like the way you referred to it as a calming effect on Harry. I think it was just important for him to…

Andrew: To hear it, yeah.

Micah: … see that somebody else that’s his age… yeah, that for so long, every… even the adults, right? They shudder. They say, “Don’t say his name.”

Andrew: It’s similar to when we have something boiling inside of us, but we don’t want to talk about it with somebody else. Maybe we have an issue with someone but we’re afraid to bring it up, and then you talk about it, and it feels so good to get it out there. I feel like that’s what’s happening here.

Micah: But it’s… exactly, and it’s also legitimizing what Harry has experienced, because she’s giving validation to his name and saying that he is real. “We’re not going to talk about him like he’s some figment of people’s imaginations and refer to him as You-Know-Who; I’m going to put a name on this.” And I think that means a lot to Harry, and that’s why… I know I keep going back to the fact that him and Hermione just have this connection, I think, at the end of this chapter – and I don’t want to be dismissive of Ron – but I think it’s really important for their relationship.

Andrew: It is a beautiful moment. They should dance in a tent sometime. I think that’s what’s next for this relationship.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry just needs to be shown that change is possible. He needs to believe in himself, that he himself can affect change, and I think Hermione finally saying the name is a way of showing him that the future isn’t set. I think he’s genuinely shocked and stunned a little bit by Hermione here, but it works to give him a little bit of hope that, “Oh, I can show people that the threat is real, and it works to all of what I’m trying to do here,” and it really convinces him more than anything else.

Andrew: Right. I like what you said about “The future isn’t set yet.” Harry can take this moment into his hands and change the future.

Micah: And sneaky Hermione, she is hurting Umbridge in the best possible way, and that’s effectively replacing her with Harry and making him the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor.

Andrew: Right. And Harry gets to bother Umbridge by doing this secretly. He knows that this would drive Umbridge mad if she found out, so it probably feels good to work under her nose without being detected.

Eric: Yeah. I know we said that the beginnings of Dumbledore’s Army were founded, I think, several chapters ago on the Hogwarts Express when Luna came into the fold and Ginny was there with them, but the pieces have been being set, and it’s really the next chapter where things come to a head and all the pieces come in, like what to name the group, and all this stuff really, really come to a fold. And it’s really exciting to see Hermione’s impassioned plea to Harry be such a big out of the left field. I wasn’t expecting it. It’s certainly a cool turn of events.

Micah: And also, the last chapter, J.K. Rowling kind of name dropped Dumbledore’s Army during the conversation with Sirius.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Those little breadcrumbs when Harry asks Sirius.

Eric: And as a kid, who doesn’t want to see students overthrow their teachers?

Andrew: [laughs] The bad ones.

Eric: And running the school, yeah. So I think that there’s a lot of appeal to the general plot idea of this book. We get so heavy on Harry’s emotions sometimes, but I think the general plot line is really satisfying.

Andrew: All right, let’s review all the times that Umbridge sucked this chapter. Micah was really excited because there are plenty of moments to work with. First of all, more painful detentions for Harry.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: I’m glad you finally used that.

Laura: Wait, what was that?

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: That was really quick; I need to extend it.

Micah: Yeah, listen closely.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: Oh, it’s her laugh. Okay.

Andrew: Yeah. Or a duck, or an animal? I don’t know… when you hear it like that, it sounds like it could be an animal. Refusing to call on a student in class; she ignored Hermione. That’s another one.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Not having a backup assignment for those who have read it.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Embarrassing teachers in front of other students; talking badly about other DADA teachers. That’s bad.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Anything else?

Laura: I think that about covers it.

Micah: What about one for just being appointed Hogwarts High Inquisitor?

Andrew: Okay. Yeah, sure.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: Yeah, with no qualifications.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, with no qualifications; there you go.

Andrew: All right, so that’s five, so now we are up to 27 times that Umbridge sucked. Sorry, Umbridge.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Might make that clip a little longer.

Laura: [laughs] And we’re only in Chapter 15.

Andrew: In the longest book ever.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yep.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, well, we do have some threads to connect today. One of the big ones I noticed is in both Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban and Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix, Trelawney is very much undermined openly in front of her class by Hermione and Umbridge. So we’ll all remember in Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban when Hermione finally gets fed up with Divination, is openly mocking Trelawney in front of her peers, and eventually just up and leaves the class when Trelawney tells her that she just doesn’t have the talent to be able to pursue the noble art of Divination.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Something worth noting here is that Hermione notes that she could actually be catching up on something useful like Cheering Charms, because she had just missed that class earlier. And then, of course, in this chapter of Order of the Phoenix, Umbridge is undermining Trelawney during her class inspection, and Charms is actually one of the few classes that Umbridge really can’t find anything negative to say about. I thought this is an interesting contrast, because here we have Trelawney being undermined by two very determined female characters, but I would argue that Hermione’s undermining, while maybe a little bit immature and not the best approach, I think it comes from a good place, ultimately, which is her desire to learn and her desire to be well-educated and be good at school, whereas Umbridge is just trying to suppress anything that might go against the Ministry. So it’s a really nice contrast between Books 3 and 5 there. And then also, these school-related injuries, with Hogwarts being a security nightmare. Of course, we all remember Draco Malfoy was injured by Buckbeak during Care of Magical Creatures class in Prisoner of Azkaban, and between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix, Draco is all too happy to share the trauma that came from that injury. During this chapter in particular, Draco speaks up about this hippogriff injury during the Care of Magical Creatures class that Umbridge is observing. Meanwhile, Harry is being very determined about hiding his hand injury from all of Umbridge’s detentions, which, again, really nice contrast because it’s Draco overblowing an injury that was truly an accident that he brought on himself, whereas Harry is trying to hide something that’s deeply messed up and representative of where the world is at this point, because he has a larger goal in mind, of not letting Umbridge know that she’s getting to him. And then this is a nice little breadcrumb, but I was so excited when I found it. So when reading Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, this is the chapter where Trelawney introduces crystal balls to the classroom, and Ron says, “I thought we weren’t starting crystal balls until next term,” and then Harry says, “‘Don’t complain, this means we’ve finished palmistry,’ Harry muttered back. ‘I was getting sick of her flinching every time she looked at my hands.'”

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

Laura: I know! I was like, [makes an explosion sound] mind blown.

Andrew: I still can’t believe J.K. Rowling plans all this. It’s just shocking.

Laura: I know!

Andrew: There’s no way; it’s got to be a coincidence. [laughs] Some of it, at least.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I don’t think the implication here is that Trelawney necessarily knew this was going to happen, but it’s just a nice little breadcrumb that really ties everything together, and I think that it’s brilliant foreshadowing on her part.

Andrew: How could J.K. Rowling connect all these threads, yet she screws up McGonagall in Crimes of Grindelwald? Come on. Did she fire the person who used to help her connect all these threads? Something’s not adding up here.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time now for MVP of the Week. I’m going to give it to McGonagall for handling Umbridge’s visit to her class so well. She nailed it, and she didn’t lose her temper.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Hermione for getting the ball rolling on the DA.

Andrew: That’s important.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Griselda Marchbanks for defending Dumbledore in the Daily Prophet. Despite the fact that the Daily Prophet wants to discredit her for being a goblin lover, I am going to give her credit this week, give her the MVP for supporting Dumbledore and Harry.

Andrew: Yeah, he needed that.

Eric: And I’m going to give it to Professors Grubbly-Plank and Flitwick for passing Umbridge’s tests.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “No biscuits for you!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Seinfeld reference.

Laura: I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “Birth of the resistance.”

Andrew: That sounds like a Star Wars title.

Laura: I know, I thought that too.

Andrew: [laughs] I almost tried to piggyback off of you, but I couldn’t think of another one.

Micah: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “High on power.”

Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “Angelina’s fury.”

Andrew: Okay. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in. MuggleCast@gmail.com; you can write or send a voice memo that way. You can also visit MuggleCast.com and click the “Contact” link at the top of the website. You can also hit us up on social media; we are @MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. If you don’t contact us, at least follow us; we would really appreciate it, and you’ll be kept up to date on the show, and you’ll see lots of show and Harry Potter goodies each and every week.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

Eric: Now, Micah, when you asked this question last week…

Andrew: I did. It was mine.

Eric: Andrew, when you asked this question last week, I was sure that it was…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Clearly somebody listened to the show last week.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or didn’t make it all the way through.

Eric: I edited the show; I made it all the way through!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Well, you zoned out.

Andrew: Go ahead, sorry.

Eric: And let me apologize for… past the hour and ten minute mark, if there’s any errors in editing, it’s because I just gave up and fell asleep.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Clearly, wow.

Eric: Andrew, last week, when you asked this question, I thought it was a trick question.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Because… a really smart, confuse the listeners, trick question.

Andrew: No, I would never do that.

Eric: Well, because when Umbridge asks how long McGonagall has been teaching at Hogwarts, the reply is “39 years this December.” It’s not December yet, so technically, the correct answer is 38 years.

Andrew: Oh, oops.

Eric: The only person who answered 38 years specifically is Jabberwock815, on Twitter. Did the math.

Andrew: Oh my goodness. I’m so sorry, listeners. I didn’t mean to miss…

Eric: But several other people directly quoted “39 years this December.”

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Which is equally true, so I would give that correct quiz answer to Pranvi, Sarah a.k.a. Weensie, ReeseWithoutHerSpoon, Tara, Robbie Stillman, and Stephanie @YoRufusOnFire. I thought you were being really clever there, dude.

Andrew: No, I wasn’t. I’m sorry.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But good catch to many of the listeners. What’s this week’s question?

Eric: This week’s question is: What does Luna say Cornelius Fudge’s army is made up of?

Andrew: All right.

Micah: Losers.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Tweet the answer to MuggleCast on Twitter. And hey, we would really enjoy if you joined our community of listeners today; Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can do it. We have tons of benefits there, including bonus MuggleCast; we’ll be releasing a new installment this week. Also, you’re going to want to pledge now, I promise you, because later this year, everybody who pledges $5 or more is going to be getting one of our best physical gifts ever. Everybody’s asking for this gift, and you’re going to get it because it’s our 15th anniversary. We’re still putting the plans together, so we’re not ready to announce it yet, but patrons will be the first to know what it is, and patrons will also be the first to see some brand new graphic artwork that we’ve been working on recently. It’s done! It’s an idea we came up with when we attended Podcast Movement in Orlando last year – that’s a podcasting conference – and we attended that thanks to your support on Patreon, and we learned a lot about the industry, and we’re applying those lessons still. So thank you to everybody who supports us; we really appreciate it. Your support goes a long way. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. Thanks for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #450

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #450, Weekend at Hogwarts (OOTP 14, ‘Percy and Padfoot’)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: Eric isn’t here this week, but we are joined by Pat once again. Hi, Pat. Welcome back.

Pat: Oh, hey, I’m back.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Laura: Welcome!

Andrew: Micah is also back too. Micah, you went searching for biscuits last week, right?

Micah: That’s right. I was actually working on the lease agreement for my new shop here in New York City. I didn’t know if you guys talked about it on the last episode, but I’m opening up a store here in the Flatiron District.

Andrew: Oh, that’s fantastic. Congratulations. We didn’t know that was you.

Micah: Four stories.

Andrew: Yeah, what’s on that fourth floor?

Micah: Can’t tell you.

Andrew: Ooh.

Micah: It’s like the Department of Mysteries.

Andrew: Is it a goat petting zoo?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You’ll have to find out. Come and visit.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Micah, this must mean you have a lot of money. I have questions.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I’m not surprised.

Micah: But in all seriousness, was in Chicago this past weekend. Got a chance to see Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, we partied it up.

Micah: Went out for some pizza and some beer. Patrick, I’m disappointed that you didn’t join us, but apparently Andrew didn’t invite you.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Just know that whenever I’m in town…

Andrew: I needed one-on-one time. I needed one-on-one time with Micah, you know? Just me and him, talking life, talking Harry Potter.

Micah: Yeah, that’s true. We don’t see each other in person all that much, so I understand. But Pat, know that anytime I’m in town, it’s an open invitation. Andrew doesn’t have to invite you.

Pat: Aww.

Andrew: Wow. Well…

Pat: I’ll just leave five minutes after him and show up.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah, just tail him wherever he’s going.

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: If I brought him, I couldn’t have put it on the MuggleCast credit card, so…

Micah: Oh. Yeah, you could have.

Andrew: I didn’t want to do that. Oh, I could have? Okay.

Micah: You’re asking the wrong person about spending money on the MuggleCast card after what I did during the holidays with the giveaway.

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Andrew: Micah would have been like, “Have two pizzas, Pat, because you’ll be on next week.”

Micah: Well, I kind of did that. Remember, we were like, “Should we go with the medium?” I’m like, “Go with the large. Take some home.”

Andrew: “Go with the extra large.” Believe it or not, we do spend our money wisely, I do want to clarify, despite the jokes here on the show.

Micah: Yeah. And on Friday – we’re recording on Saturday – so yesterday, I got a chance, finally, to go over to the Lyric Theater in New York City. I work in the city; it’s not that far away. But every time – and I think twice before I’ve gone over there – the store where you’re supposed to pick up your pin for Wizarding World Gold was closed, and I think it’s a miss, number one, to not include the hours of the store in the Wizarding World app. I think that would be very helpful. But I did go online and looked it up, and left work just a little bit early – because they closed at five o’clock – to get over there. I finally got my pin, and I felt bad because they only had ten minutes until closing. But you know when you show up in a store or anywhere right before they’re about to close, and they give you that look?

Andrew: Right, they’re like, “Ughhh, not another one.”

Micah: So I said to the guy, I’m like, “Look, I’m only here for a pin.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And so he walked me through the process of how to go about it.

Andrew: So you got your pin. Are you happy?

Micah: I got my pin! Yeah, it’s cool. I don’t know what I’m going to do with it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s one of Dumbledore. It says, “Those that we love never truly leave us.”

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good one. I would want that one. Pat is also a new Wizarding World Gold member; I gifted it to him for Christmas, though I gave it to him on the day J.K. Rowling sent out that tweet, and it just felt a little…

Laura: Eugh.

Andrew: It wasn’t the best day to give him Wizarding World Gold.

Laura: Yeah, I also got – because that day was my birthday, coincidentally – and I also got a couple of birthday gifts that were Harry Potter-themed. And I was initially so like, “Oh, yay!” And then I was like, “Ahh.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Ehhh.” Yeah, and Pat, you got the journal. You like the journal, right?

Pat: Yeah, it’s cool looking through it, how they customize it. I didn’t realize that they would start everybody’s journal different. My next month after I redeemed it is February, so mine starts in February, which is kind of cool because then you’re getting the full year and not having to miss out on a few months, or go back and retrace what you did or whatever.

Andrew: Yeah. Wizarding World Gold has done a couple of interesting things so far: They did an early release for Harry’s Patronus Funko, and they just announced the other day new Harry Potter Moleskins. Moleskins are very popular journals, and they have teamed up with Wizarding World to do some official ones. And they look beautiful; I’m actually really tempted to buy these. And it’s doubly tempting when Wizarding World Gold is like, “You can get early access to these journals and they’re 20% off.” That’s been interesting to see. But at this time, Wizarding World Gold still isn’t…

Micah: Gold?

Andrew: I don’t think any of us would super recommend getting it.

Micah: No.

Andrew: It’s not something that every Harry Potter fan needs.

Pat: Right.

Micah: Especially if you have to go to a place three times just to get a damn pin.

[Andrew laughs]


Muggle Mail


Andrew: Okay, so we have Chapter by Chapter this week for everybody; looking forward to discussing Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, but first we have some emails. Speaking of merchandise, this email is a follow-up to last week’s discussion. It’s from Robbie.

“As a wand collector, I hope these House wands are actually the wands of Godric, Helga, Rowena, and Salazar. This would be the most unique new way for them to create a new wand product, and it fits with my hope for a HBO Max Founders TV series. I own one of each Noble Collection wand, as well as wands from the parks and custom wooden wands (112 different wands in total). Many subscription boxes have released House wands that simply have a badger or snake handle, and I hope that isn’t the case here.”

So that’s interesting. So there have been House wands out there.

Pat: I love his idea.

Laura: Yeah, I agree with Robbie here. I really hope that it’s not just a generic, like, “Here’s your House emblem” wand. It would be really cool if it was specific to the founders.

Andrew: Well, Micah, this is apparently your store. Do you care to confirm or deny?

Micah: I can’t comment at this time…

Andrew: Wow.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … but let’s just say Robbie may or may not be onto something here.

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Andrew: Great.

Micah: Though I will say…

Andrew: What do you think…?

Micah: Oh, go ahead.

Andrew: What do you think of that store, Micah? That they’re building.

Micah: I think it’s really cool. I’m quite honestly surprised that they didn’t do something like this sooner, but I’m sure getting the right property in New York City is not the easiest thing to do if that’s always where they wanted to build something like this. Though, what they have at least available for us to know what’s going to be there, it sounds really cool. I’m interested to check out this cafe section with the coffee – I know you talked about it on last week’s episode – and the butterbeer, and it seems like it’s going to be a destination for people who live in New York, not just people who are visiting from out of town, so I’m excited.

Andrew: All right. Laura, do you want to read the next email?

Laura: Sure, the next one is from Darin of Salt Lake City.

“I just wanted to touch on the last few chapters of Order of the Phoenix where you’ve been discussing prefect duties. We learn later on that only teachers can take away House points. We learn this when Malfoy first becomes part of the Inquisitorial Squad. He takes away points from Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ernie, and Ernie confronts Malfoy about it, telling him that only teachers are allowed to take points.”

Andrew: Hmm, okay. Thank you for that clarification.

Laura: Yeah, thanks for doing that homework for us.

Micah: The next email comes from Pat, who says,

“In reference to Episode 449, I think you all forgot about everything Hermione tried to do in Book 4 to boycott house-elves working at Hogwarts. Before she created SPEW, she went on her own hunger strike for a few days and tried to convince others to do the same. That is also when she tried to get Fred and George to tell her how to get into the kitchens to talk to the house-elves. She then realized that her doing it alone wasn’t going to change anything, which is when she started wolfing her food down to get to the library to research house-elf history and founded SPEW.”

Andrew: Ooh, thank you for those reminders, Pat. And this is actually the Pat here on the show today.

Pat: Yeah, I was going to say, this Pat sounds real smart.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No, this is great because I specifically last week was like, “Okay, Hermione, there are other things that you can do apart from trying to trick them into picking up your wooly hats that you’re leaving all over the common room.” And it’s true, she did do all these things. It’s a good reminder. But I still kind of question the way that she’s doing this in Order of the Phoenix.

Pat: Oh, for sure.

Laura: Like, “What kind of impact do you actually think you’re going to have here?” But she goes on to be Minister of Magic later, so she probably fixes it then, hopefully.

Micah: I thought you raised a really interesting point on last week’s episode: Wouldn’t it have to be somebody at the level of Dumbledore that presented the elves with clothes in order to allow them to go? And maybe I’m wrong, but I was always under the impression that the house-elves that worked at Hogwarts, that it was – at least under Dumbledore – somewhat at will. And like I said, I could be completely wrong here, but it does seem overall, though, that the house-elves that work at Hogwarts are definitely treated better than the ones that we’ve seen throughout the course of the series, like Kreacher, and Dobby when he was with the Malfoys. That’s certainly not excusing the way that they’re treated as a people, but that’s always the impression I got. And like I said, I could be completely wrong.

Andrew: I think that’s a good point.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think they’re definitely treated better at Hogwarts, but at the end of the day, it’s kind of like the argument that you’ll sometimes hear people make about – and I don’t mean to take this to a dark place – but it’s kind of like when you hear people be like, “Oh, well, during slavery, these particular slave owners, they were nice to their slaves,” and it’s like, “Well, they were still slaves.”

Andrew: No, you’re right, you’re right. I think just all things considered, the point is that Hogwarts is probably a good place to work. We don’t know how Dumbledore treated them behind the scenes; there may be a lot more to that story that we don’t know.

Laura: Yeah, I wish we did know, you know?

Pat: And I think that the house-elves knew that what Hermione was doing wasn’t going to release them, I think, but I think they were just insulted by the fact that they were trying to be tricked, which is why they just let Dobby [pronounces it “Doe-bee”] be the only one to clean the common room.

Andrew: Dobby. Haven’t we gotten into a fight about this before?

Pat: Probably. I’m still going to call him Dobby. [pronounces it “Doe-bee”]

Andrew: By the way, this email really was from Pat. A few weeks ago he came up to me and said, “Andrew, this was wrong on MuggleCast,” and I’m like, “Don’t tell me that to my face. Email in.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So then I’m looking at the email the other day before we invited him on this week’s show, and I see this email from him. [laughs] He didn’t tell me he was sending it.

Laura: I love it.

Micah: Is it really from you? Or is he just making that up?

Pat: Yeah, I had to.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Andrew: No, I’m serious, yeah. Final email today is from Barbara.

“I am a long-time listener (almost from the beginning) and probably one of your oldest (age-wise) fans. I respect your opinion and I need some advice. On my next birthday (a big one), I plan to get my first (and probably only) tattoo. I wanted to get a small lightning bolt. Since I made the decision, I have been very excited about it and was looking forward to the occasion (in April). Now that the whole trans controversy has happened, I am not sure what to do. Harry Potter has had a big impact on my life. Even though I am a straight white woman, the message of love and inclusion is very important. I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts. Thanks for your help.”

Laura: I still think you should do it.

Andrew: I agree.

Laura: If it’s still something you feel strongly about, because Harry Potter is about much more than the writer. The fandom that has been created, the community of people who are loving and accepting of each other, I think is far more reflective of what Harry Potter is about than one of J.K. Rowling’s tweets, so I think you should get it.

Andrew: Yep.

Laura: I don’t think that you should let that stop you. I have a friend who’s actually in the process of having a Deathly Hallows tattoo design for her of the Three Brothers, because that story means so much to her, and she was like, “Yeah, I’m not going to let J.K. Rowling being out of touch on this topic… I’m not going to let that stop me from expressing myself and expressing how much this story has meant to me.” And I think that that’s also very apropos because we learn throughout the Harry Potter books that Dumbledore, one of the most revered characters that we respected and trusted and thought could do no wrong early on, he turns out to be a really flawed character.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I think that’s an important lesson for us to take away, is that everyone has some kind of flaw, and that doesn’t excuse it, but it also doesn’t mean that you have to take this black and white approach to what you like in your life.

Andrew: Right. That tattoo is about Harry Potter and your experience with the books and the fandom. If you were considering getting J.K. Rowling’s face tattooed on your arm, then we might be like, “Maybe think about that a little more.” [laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: “Wait to see what else she does.” But this is specifically about Harry Potter, not J.K. Rowling, so absolutely go for it. I have to say, I think a lot of people are completely unaffected by J.K. Rowling’s tweet in terms of the relationship to Harry Potter. It’s still all about the story and the fandom. People aren’t… there isn’t going to be this mass departure from the Harry Potter fandom. There’s going to be a mass departure from loving J.K. Rowling as much as we once did, but for everybody in their day-to-day lives in this fandom, everybody still loves Harry Potter as much as ever. That’s not changing. Pat and I were at a Christmas party a few weeks ago, and the whole group – like, 20 people – got on the subject of Harry Potter. This was after J.K. Rowling’s tweet. It did not get brought up at all. Everybody’s still obsessed with Harry Potter as ever. It’s just… this doesn’t affect anything. And nobody’s going to look at your tattoo and be like, “Oh, well, did you see that J.K. Rowling tweet?” They’re going to say, “Oh yeah, that story is incredible, and that’s awesome that you got that tattoo.” So go for it.

Pat: Yeah, and I was telling someone the other day when they were asking about it, and I was like, “Well, Harry Potter, it’s still my religion; it’s just Jo isn’t my Jesus anymore.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Ooh, that’s a really good way to put it.

Andrew: “She’s my Satan!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, that’s too harsh.

Laura: No, I don’t think that either. I think that it’s a very human thing to show the less than desirable parts of yourself, and I think that’s what we’re going through with J.K. Rowling right now. It doesn’t mean that she didn’t craft an incredible story about friendship and inclusion and the importance of loving each other. Her one tweet doesn’t take that away from us.

Pat: Yeah, and if that message is a part of the tattoo that you want, then that’s what you are going to remember when you look at it. You’re not going to remember everything else. You’re going to remember the part of the story that you love, and that’s what matters when getting a tattoo like that.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say, I always would struggle with the fact of telling somebody to put something permanent on their body if it’s not something that they’re 100% committed to, but it seems like you had made this decision long before J.K. Rowling tweeted what she did, so I think if it still carries that level of importance for you, then why not?

Andrew: Who is your new Jesus, Pat?

Pat: Um… we’ll see.

Micah: Lupin.

Andrew: Dumbledore. I vote Dumbledore.

Laura: Ugh, I don’t think Dumbledore is a good Jesus either.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Pat: I mean, Sirius has always been my favorite character and he’s also super flawed, so I don’t know.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Chapter 14, “Percy and Padfoot,” and we’ll start with our seven-word summary. Pat, you start. For “Percy and Padfoot,” Pat.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Continue the alliteration.

Pat: I’m not continuing the alliteration. We’re just going to start with the day of the week, so Saturday…

Micah: … begins…

Andrew: … with…

Laura: Which way do I want to take this? I want to set you guys up for success.

Andrew: Aw, so thoughtful.

Laura: Yeah, I’ll just say… letter…?

Micah: You should say “S.”

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Pat: Saturday begins with letter… sending…

Laura: Y’all can do it.

Micah: … from…

Andrew: … Harry.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: New rule; we have to complete this in 30 seconds. This takes way too long.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I was thinking “and Quidditch.”

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Pat: Ahh.

Laura: “Letter sending and Quidditch.” It’s fine, it’s fine.

Pat: Yeah, I think starting with Saturday wasn’t the best. [laughs]

Laura: No, I think it’s fine.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, well, let’s get into the chapter discussion. And speaking of Saturday, I thought, “Saturday morning, ain’t nothing like it.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And we all get together on Saturday morning for the most part to record the podcast; I’m sure we’re all excited to get up and out of bed to do that.

Andrew: Wow, this chapter is already so relatable.

Micah: Isn’t it?

Pat: Yeah, and Harry didn’t sleep in, and we didn’t either.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But I think we can all, for the most part, sympathize with Harry. The week that he’s had, maybe we’ve not had that rough of a week, but it’s Saturday. It’s the weekend. He’s ready to just kick it and relax and not have to think about too much of anything. Of course, we know that’s not what ends up happening, but it’s the weekend. Let’s relax. No homework. Hermione, stuff it aside for now. Don’t we all agree?

Andrew: Let him relax. Let him enjoy some #SelfCare.

Micah: Exactly.

Laura: It’s all about a balance, you know?

Micah: Exactly!

Andrew: I remember the days when I didn’t have anything to do over the weekend. That was good times. That doesn’t happen anymore as an adult.

Laura: Nope.

Andrew: Thanks in part to podcasting.

Micah: Exactly, blame the podcast.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And Harry gets up on the early side; he goes down and tries to start writing a letter to Sirius, and one of the things that he notes is the fact that it must have been really difficult for Ron and Hermione to try and write him letters over the summer. And I thought to myself, “Oh, really? So now you’re starting to sympathize with your friends and see how difficult it was for them to write you letters.” Now, did Ron and Hermione actually write him letters? I thought that was the whole thing was that he wasn’t hearing from them.

Andrew: He wasn’t hearing from them because I thought they were instructed to not write the letters for security reasons, and I guess they couldn’t come up with enough cryptic language to get a letter to him.

Micah: Right. Harry, though, does a really good job of hiding the truth in the letter that he crafts to Sirius. But as noted, it did take a little bit of time; it’s not like he could just sit down and say whatever’s on his mind, because he’s writing to a escaped convicted felon, and as we know from earlier on in this book, the Ministry is out looking for him, and it’s quite possible – and we learn more, actually, in this chapter – that the Malfoys are aware of the fact that Sirius is in London. It’s noted in the Daily Prophet a little bit later on. So what do we make of Harry’s ability here? I wondered if this is something that Harry innately has in him and he’s this clever, or is it just J.K. Rowling being a clever writer? Do we think this is something that Harry is good at, or is it just J.K. Rowling’s writing?

Pat: I think Harry has gotten good at it with how much he can’t mention anything dealing with magic when he’s home at the Dursleys’, so I think he’s always – at least for the past four summers – had to think of ways to speak to them when he has to that’s not going to set them off.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that. I think it’s also J.K. Rowling exercising her creativity, and it’s a fun moment to read in the chapter.

Laura: I think it’s also maybe a little bit of foreshadowing showing Harry’s competencies to be an Auror. This very much sticks out as a talent that an Auror might have.

Micah: That’s a great point. Some of the lines that he has in the letter that he’s writing to Sirius are “Professor Umbridge is nearly as nice as your mum,” “The thing I wrote you about last summer happened again in detention,” and “We’re all missing our biggest friend.”

Andrew: Yeah. This made me wonder how we would cryptically describe each other in a similar letter, if we couldn’t reveal anything about Micah. The deep-voiced one?

[Pat laughs]

Laura: Yeah, our bass-iest friend?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And Laura, you would be our… something about your hair.

Laura: I was going to say colorful. Colorful friend.

Andrew: Colorful lady.

Laura: There we go. “We miss our colorful lady.”

Micah: Our colorful voice of reason.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: How would you guys describe me?

Micah: I would start out the letter, “Yeah, yeah, all right.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: And then just go from there.

Laura: We miss our “Yeah, yeah, all right” friend.

Andrew: “Yeah, yeah, all right!” Very early on in the MuggleCast days, for anybody who doesn’t understand that.

Laura: Yeah. I would say, “We miss our ringleader friend.”

Andrew: Aww.

Micah: So Harry goes up to the owlery to send note to Sirius, and while he’s up there, he looks out one of the windows and into the Forbidden Forest, and it’s noted that he sees a Thestral kind of popping out and going back down. And I know it’s hard to think back, but if I were Harry, I think I’d be a bit concerned. I don’t know if when we were reading this through first time around, “What’s going on with Harry here, where he’s just seeing things?” And it would probably be a bit concerning.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, here in the Muggle world, the existence of creatures is binary – either they are or they aren’t – and here there’s this weird middle ground? But yeah, if I was Harry, I would be panicking over the fact that nobody else can see these except for Luna thus far, and I would probably go to a teacher and ask about it, because if he can see this and nobody else can, then he’s crazy.

Laura: I think the only teacher he would feel comfortable expressing that to is the one who’s not talking to him.

Pat: Right. I think if Lupin was still there, he may have spoken to Lupin, but…

Andrew: But even McGonagall? I mean, she’s a trustworthy figure. Or maybe Hermione? She has to know about Thestrals.

Micah: It’s a good point.

Laura: I mean, apparently not, though.

Pat: It’s kind of like the same thing in Book 3, where he’s seeing what he thinks is a Grim all the time and then realizing, “Oh, this isn’t really anything bad” later on. This is kind of the same thing where he is going to realize that the Thestrals aren’t really that ominous for him at some point; it’s just right now, he’s like, “Okay, am I seeing an omen? Am I not?”

Micah: Right.

Laura: Very true.

Micah: And they both symbolize death. I don’t know if we’re stealing Laura’s connecting the threads, but if we go back to Book 3 with the Grim and Thestrals, they both kind of have that same significance.

Laura: Oh, absolutely. And I think also there’s just an element of anxiety about being different here. I think Harry is hesitant to bring it up because he realizes nobody else sees them, and he’s like, “Oh, great, another thing that makes me stand out. Wonderful.”

Andrew: Right, he doesn’t want to announce it because it’s not going to help his case concerning Cedric. “Well, if he’s seeing these Thestrals that we can’t see, how do we know he actually saw Voldemort? Because we haven’t seen Voldemort either.”

Pat: Yeah, and I think when he mentions it in the beginning of the book to Ron, and Ron is like, “Yeah, nothing’s there…” Or is that somebody else that he says that to?

Laura: I think it is Ron.

Micah: It is right up face-to-face with Ron, I think.

Pat: Yeah, so I think that has maybe shook him a little bit, too, where he’s like, “My best friend is thinking I’m nuts, so maybe I just shouldn’t say anything to anybody and figure it out later.”

Andrew: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Micah: And you could tie it in, even going back further, to Chamber of Secrets when he’s the only one that can hear the Basilisk and he doesn’t know what that is or what the significance of it is. He has a history of hearing and seeing things that other people can’t.

Pat: Yeah, which emphasizes Laura’s point even more.

Micah: Well, while he’s up there, his crush shows up. Cho pops into the owlery, and first thing that comes to Harry’s mind is, “Let’s talk about the weather.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I feel like we’ve probably all been there, right? When we’ve been having a conversation with somebody that we’ve been attracted to, and we can’t think of anything to talk about, so we default to something that probably we think makes us come across as being not as cool or interesting. It’s just, what’s the quickest thing that comes to mind? Oh, the weather. Let’s talk about the weather.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, and every business meeting ever over the phone starts with, “How’s the weather where you live? Well, let me tell you how it is.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Nobody cares. It’s such worthless small talk. I hate it.

Micah: It’s throwaway. Poor Harry. But by the time the conversation is over, he’s feeling pretty damn good about himself, so it’s all right. Even though they started off on the weather, there’s smoother pastures ahead.

Andrew: [laughs] If I was at Hogwarts, I would probably start off with, like, “What spells have you learned recently?” Or like, “How’s your wand doing?” Or “How’s your owl?”

Pat: Yeah, especially since Cho is a year older, they are in different classes. They’re in different…

Laura: That’s true.

Pat: Yeah, there’s way more to talk about.

Laura: He could always be like, “Hey, do you see that boney, winged horse down there? Kind of weird.”

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: “Oh, you don’t? Me neither.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “Just testing you.”

Pat: Hey, that could have been… maybe that was in a lesson that Cho already had. She could have told him right there if he would have asked her.

Micah: It’s true. One thing that they’re able to bond over, though, is Quidditch. And they talk a little bit about that, and Ron gets brought up in Harry’s mentioning the fact that Ron is now going to be a member of the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and Cho refers to him as “Ron the Tornado hater Weasley.” Or maybe I just made it up. I don’t know that she calls him “Ron the Tornado hater Weasley”; I think I just made that up.

Andrew: I think she says, “How’s the Tornado hater?” Maybe.

Micah: Something like that. The only reason I included that is because it was the answer to the Quizzitch question from last week.

Andrew: So twice in this scene, I thought it was interesting that Cho stands up for Harry. So she says, “You were really brave standing up to Umbridge like that.” And then just a couple minutes later when Filch barges in, she comes to his defense again, and that’s love.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: To defend somebody twice in the same hour. Like, wow.

Micah: Yeah. And Harry considers even showing Cho his hand during this meeting of the two of them, because he’s just so invigorated by the fact that she is calling him brave and saying that it was great that he stood up to Umbridge. It’s like you get your… it says his insides burned. It’s like he’s floating on air; he feels like a million bucks by the end of this conversation.

Laura: I think it’s funny that he has this impulse to show her his wound, because Malfoy does the exact same thing in Prisoner of Azkaban after he gets attacked by Buckbeak. He’s very much exaggerating the status of his wound – not saying that Harry is doing that here – but he does it largely, I think, to get attention from his peers, but primarily Pansy Parkinson, who’s fawning over him during this, and now Harry has this very same impulse with Cho.

Andrew: Yeah. And Harry has quickly learned that he can trust Cho and Cho will be understanding, and he wants emotional support from her.

Micah: But I also think it’s really important in this particular moment that Harry is receiving some sort of validation and some sort of support, and the fact that it’s coming from somebody who maybe isn’t necessarily in Gryffindor, who he’s known, and obviously Cho means a lot to him. But I just think with everything that he’s been through this year, everything that we’ve read about up until this point, the fact that he’s able to get some sort of support from somebody is important to him, because he hasn’t gotten a whole lot of that throughout Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I think it’s important that it’s from Cho because they have shared trauma.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And Harry is super relieved, when he first sees her back at school, that she doesn’t hate him and doesn’t hold him responsible for Cedric’s death, like everybody else seems to.

Micah: Yep. Well, Filch ends up crashing the party. He’s our second wand block of Order of the Phoenix; Ron was the first.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Filch is now the… I guess you can even throw Mrs. Norris in there too, so three wand blocks so far between Harry and Cho. But as you all said, Cho comes to his defense and really kind of saves the day, and Filch skulks off because there’s no proof that Harry was sending Dungbombs. So do we ever learn who sent Filch after Harry in this chapter? Who tipped him off?

Pat: I think it’s just Mrs. Norris running off because he crosses her path on his way to the owlery…

Micah: That’s right.

Pat: … and she runs off, and he’s like, “I’m not doing anything wrong!”

Andrew: If I were Harry, I would be head over heels for Cho at this point.

Micah: Harry is on cloud nine, though, leaving the owlery, and after he parts ways with Cho, he meets up with Ron and Hermione at breakfast. And I don’t think we touched on this; it maybe would have been two chapters ago. We kind of glanced over the fact that Hermione is now receiving the Daily Prophet to keep tabs on what is going on in the outside world. Another notch or feather in Hermione’s cap in this book, just given all the smart things that she does. And one thing that’s mentioned is that Sirius supposedly is hiding in London, and this is cause for concern, because we talked about, pretty extensively, how Sirius made a massive mistake by deciding to accompany Harry to King’s Cross, and it seems like now the hunt is in full effect for Sirius where he’s actually hiding.

Andrew: Yeah, and it confirms Draco’s hint earlier in the book that he knew that Sirius was on the platform when they went off to school. So yeah, it’s worrying, and for the spotlight to be turned back onto Sirius again is a big problem, because they don’t want that at all right now, and now Sirius has this extra pressure of staying under hiding. I mean, he could have stayed hidden and he wouldn’t have been in the newspapers and people would have just forgotten about him, but he had to go out there.

Laura: Well, as we learn later in the chapter, part of the fun for him is the risk of getting caught.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I was also wondering… I feel like we’ve probably touched on this at some point, but the use of the name “Snuffles” is not lost on me, given that Sirius gets snuffed later in the book.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And I’m just like, “Oh, this is so painful.”

Andrew: I think of that Sesame Street character, Snuffleupagus? Yeah, that’s it.

Laura: It’s endearing. On its face, it’s a super endearing name, but then you’re like, “Eugh, there could actually be a deeper meaning here.”

Micah: Yeah. It sounds like a name that you would give a puppy, right?

Andrew: Right. I’m going to name my next dog Snuffles.

Pat: I like Pancake better.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Um, okay.

Micah: There is one other article that draws attention of Hermione in the Daily Prophet, and it is about Sturgis Podmore, and it’s a very brief column that is written. And I thought we could read it here and discuss it a bit, because we did talk on a previous episode how Mad-Eye Moody mentioned that Sturgis was missing when he was supposed to be accompanying all the kids to King’s Cross. So it says, “Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two, Laburnum Gardens, Clapham, has appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trespass and attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on the 31st of August. Podmore was arrested by Ministry of Magic watch wizard Eric Munch, who found him attempting to force his way through a top-security door at one o’clock in the morning. Podmore, who refused to speak in his own defense, was convicted on both charges and sentenced to six months in Azkaban.” So that is not good for the Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: No. And as we learn later, he has been Imperiused, and maybe Moody was more concerned about this than we actually know, because yeah, this is a major problem for them. They have to be wondering, “Could another member of the Order go the same way?”

Micah: And why do we think the article was so short and basically buried within another column that’s in the paper?

Laura: I mean, I would assume that this… I mean, because we know the Daily Prophet is very much aligned with the Ministry at this point, so I don’t think the Ministry would want a lot of flashy front page coverage about the Ministry being infiltrated, right?

Andrew: Right, yeah, it’s not a good look.

Micah: It could lend credence to the fact that Voldemort could be around somewhere, or there could be evil forces at work trying to infiltrate the Ministry.

Andrew: However, if it was already established at this point that Sturgis was a part of the Order of the Phoenix, then this would have been a much bigger story for the Ministry, and they would have spoken about how Dumbledore’s crackpot gang of rebels are trying to break in, and…

Micah: Definitely. So after breakfast, it’s clear that Ron needs some help, needs some practice before practice at Quidditch, and he asks Harry straight up for some help. And I thought this was a cool bonding moment, a cool moment of friendship between the two of them that you don’t always get to see. And Harry really goes out of his way to help train Ron. Hermione isn’t too keen on the fact that they’re going off to play Quidditch; she would rather they focus on their homework, but I think Hermione is being a bit of a party pooper here. I think that especially Harry… Harry has had a hell of a week. Let him get on his broom and go fly around for a bit.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, I mean, Hermione is basically all work and no play, at least in this chapter, and it’s not really up to Hermione to decide what those two do. So I mean, she has a point about getting their homework done, but if they want to go play Quidditch, let them. And I also think Harry may be interested in helping Ron because, as we discussed earlier in our Chapter by Chapter series, Ron and Hermione are in position of power now, being prefects. Harry might feel a little cast aside; he doesn’t feel as important, so being able to train Ron might give him that feeling of importance that he could be yearning for, and being in a position of power with his Quidditch skills.

Laura: That’s true. I think also, just in some defense of Hermione, she knows that – she has four years of experience with it thus far – that these two not completing their homework and not putting in the study time results in more work for her when she has to correct her friends’ homework and hold their hands through it.

Pat: Yeah, and she also knows Harry has been in detention all week, so he hasn’t had time to even do homework, so I think she’s just thinking for Harry’s mental state later on, like, “You should do this now so that you aren’t going to be frustrated later.”

Andrew: Would you guys be like Hermione, always helping out your friends? I think I would get sick of it after a year or two.

Laura: So I always liked school, and I never minded coaching friends through assignments. Hermione takes it a step further, though, and she kind of does their homework for them.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: We see later in this chapter she’s just writing Ron’s essay for him. I would not do that. That is just a bridge too far. That’s cheating.

Andrew: Yeah! She’s got enough to do herself in her own schooling, and yet she feels like she has to help Harry and Ron all the time. That would just get really tiring for me after a couple years; I would just be like, “Yo, get it together and do it yourself. I’m not going to hold your hand through the rest of your lives.”

Micah: I think it’s about prioritizing, and right now for… I don’t know. It’s hard because for Ron, the focus for him, obviously, is Quidditch, and that he’s made the team and that he needs to deliver, and this is something that he’s always wanted to be a part of. And it’s mentioned, how many other members of his family have played Quidditch at Hogwarts? And we know Ginny comes on in the next book, and goes on to make a career out of playing Quidditch. So I think for Ron, that overshadows any work that he needs to get done for school, and for Harry, he’s just had probably his worst week at Hogwarts, and Quidditch is an escape for him. So that said, they should still be able to prioritize. “Okay, we’re going to take this amount of time to go teach Ron, and then we’re going to take this amount of time for practice, and then we need to spend the rest of the time that we have on our studies.” That’s just the way that it goes. As you get older as a student, you have to be able to figure that out. Hermione has been able to really do that since year one; Harry and Ron, not so much. But I agree, I think it’s a little bit extra that Hermione is doing the actual work for them. I don’t know if Percy’s letter has anything to do with that, though; if she really just feels that bad for Ron in that moment.

Andrew: That’s the impression I got. Her attitude kind of changed in an instant after that letter.

Laura: Because earlier on in the chapter, she tells them, “I’m not going to help you with your homework if you do this.”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And Ron was like, “Do you think she was serious about that?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Because I really need her help.” But before we get to Percy’s letter, we wanted to bring up an issue at Quidditch practice, which is that Draco and his friends are watching the Gryffindors practice. And that just seems like that shouldn’t be allowed, not just because it’s unhealthy to taunt the other teams, but they can also be picking up the strategies that Gryffindor are practicing, and that seems like something that would be illegal. You think about in football where each team’s plays are super secret, and they cut to the coach during the game and they’re covering their mouth so you can’t tell what play they’re about to call, and this is basically what the Slytherins are witnessing here.

Micah: Right, or compare it even to what’s going on right now in baseball with the Houston Astros and the sign-stealing that went on there.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: And if people aren’t familiar with that, I would just say Google “Houston Astros” and you’ll see the fallout that happened as a result of that. But it’s similar.

Andrew: Laura is a big sports ball fan. She knows all about it, right, Laura?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Following it very closely.

Micah: Aren’t we talking about that on Millennial on Monday?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big deal.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Laura is like, “What?”

Micah: That was a plug, too.

Laura: Yes, thank you.

Micah: I’m very much looking forward to joining Millennial on… Laura, do you know I’m going to be on the show Monday?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I do, yeah.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, we talked about this.

Andrew: Micah is going to be on the other podcast that Laura and I do. It’s called Millennial; check it out. MillennialShow.com. Okay, anyway. Back to Quidditch.

Micah: It’s been years. It may even have been the last time we were talking about Order of the Phoenix on this podcast.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: That was probably the last time that I was on Millennial. But anyway. Yeah, I agree, though; I think that it shouldn’t be allowed, right?

Andrew: No.

Micah: Because I want to say, don’t Slytherins have closed practices at one point in the series? I feel like there’s something mentioned about how Snape booked the Quidditch pitch for the Slytherin team.

Andrew: Right, right, because they wanted to practice and they couldn’t because Slytherin beat them to it, I think.

Pat: Yeah, I think, though, I’ve always found it weird that their practices aren’t supervised. At some point they are, that Madam Hooch is there, but the majority of the practices, she’s not there to instill any rules at all.

Andrew: What is she doing?

Pat: Which, if you think about any other sport, there’s always a coach there, some sort of adult supervisor to keep everybody in check. Maybe if she was there, she would have been, like, “Nope, Slytherin out. Go home.”

Micah: Yeah, you know what this means, Andrew? This is yet another reason as to why Hogwarts is a security nightmare.

Laura: Yep.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Thank you for introducing that slowly so I had time to load up my sound effect for it.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, I actually wouldn’t say that this is a security nightmare. This is… we’ve been speaking in recent episodes about House unity. This just tears the Houses apart when they’re allowed to head down to the Quidditch pitch and taunt each other. Like, okay, have a rivalry between teams, but they shouldn’t be allowed to come down and bully them.

Micah: No, and like you said earlier, with football, maybe you’re working on different plays. And first of all, you’re trying to integrate a brand new player to your team, and you’re working on strategies. Somebody else’s team should not be able to see that.

Pat: Right.

Micah: That’s wrong. Fire Madam Hooch.

Andrew: Where is Madam Hooch? I mean, she’s got nothing else to do.

Laura: How do you know?

Andrew: I’m reading her Wikipedia right now.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: She’s a flying instructor, Quidditch referee, and coach at Hogwarts. She should… her office should be on the pitch, and she should be supervising everything that happens there.

Micah: Yeah, think about what happens to Katie Bell during this practice. If she was there, maybe she wouldn’t have ended up taking some of Fred and George’s bad product and needing to go to the hospital wing.

Andrew: Right. Not to mention, yeah, they’re still on Hogwarts grounds, but they’re outside the castle, and that does actually sound like a security nightmare when Voldemort is back.

Micah: And there’s these Thestrals flying around that Harry has no idea what they are.

Andrew: Thestrals. Dementors have been on the Quidditch pitch.

Micah: What did you make of the bad product moment by Fred and George? Obviously, they’re trying to help out Katie after she gets nailed by Ron, but that’s just an example, though, of… I don’t know what you can compare it to in modern day, but taking something… I know they’re testing out on themselves mostly, but you take a bad product before it’s been fully vetted, something like this can happen.

Andrew: Right. Something like this was bound to happen with their products, so I wasn’t really surprised. It’s a bummer that it happened to Katie.

Laura: No. I kind of felt… I feel bad for Ron here, though, because he takes so much crap off of Angelina for being nervous and dropping the ball and for throwing the ball too hard so that it hits Katie, but Fred and George are really the ones who exacerbate her nosebleed. And they’re like, “Oh yeah, I think I gave her this Blood Blister packet, whatever, as opposed to the other thing,” and Angelina is just like, “Okay, whatever. Go to the hospital wing.” And she doesn’t give Fred and George any crap. Poor Ron. He’s just the new kid.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: I was thinking about that too. Do you think Fred and George volunteer to take Katie to the hospital to cover their own butts, or to tell Madam Pomfrey the truth?

Laura: I don’t know. I mean, they definitely… they own up to it in front of everybody. They’re like, “Oh, I think we gave her this instead.”

Pat: Right, but Madam Pomfrey is a professor, technically, so she might be like, “Okay, they’re making up these products; I need to put a stop to this.” Or they can cover their own butts and not tell her the truth, so that she can’t try to stop them.

Laura: It’s true.

Andrew: They owe it to Katie to tell the truth so that she can be cured as quickly as possible. And own up to your mistakes; I don’t think they’re below that.

Micah: Do we think that they tried to slip her something else on the way up there so that it maybe counteracts the effects of what’s already happened to her?

Andrew: You would think so. You would think they would be prepared for this type of scenario.

Pat: Right, it wouldn’t surprise me. But if I was Katie, I would be like, “Um, no, I’m not taking something else from you.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Nothing else. Do not touch me. I don’t trust you anymore.”

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: “Bring me to Pomfrey, and by the way, where’s Hooch?”

Micah: Well, isn’t this a sort of a precursor, given what happens to her in Half-Blood Prince?

Andrew: Right, yeah. You think that’s bad, Katie? Just you wait till the next book.

Micah: [laughs] But going off of what Laura was talking about with Ron, when they get back to the common room, it’s clear that practice didn’t go all that well, but Hermione kind of jumps to the conclusion that the reason it didn’t go well was because of Ron, and Ron says exactly that to her. And do we think it’s a bit wrong of Hermione to jump to that conclusion, or do we think this is more like a moment of frustration for her, because she’s probably been sitting there all day doing homework and she’s just looking to let off some steam?

Pat: I think that she has every right to have this conclusion, because Ron came in in a mood anyways. It was kind of obvious that it was his fault just by the way that he was acting, so I think she just read the room and realized that he was really upset. If it wasn’t his fault, he probably wouldn’t have been upset, so I think she assumed correctly.

Laura: I agree.

Micah: Okay, let’s talk a little bit about Percy’s letter that Ron receives, and it’s quite loaded.

Andrew: It’s really awful, yeah.

Micah: We wanted to try and read some of these lines from Percy in a semi Dr. Evil voice, which I think we could probably just make up whatever we consider to be a sinister voice, because like I said, this letter is loaded. And I don’t know how much of it is Percy really feeling this way, or Percy just being in the moment and thinking that he’s hot shit because he works for the Ministry.

Andrew: [laughs] Right, and he’s riding high on this new story that’s about to come out in the Prophet, so he’s got this chip on his shoulder. I think he absolutely feels this way genuinely.

Micah: But what changed him? That’s what I’m trying to figure out, is he went to Hogwarts; he was prefect, Head Boy. I’m sure he respected Dumbledore during his time there, as well as the other professors. Now he transitions to another situation where he’s in a position of power, and he obviously respects the Minister.

Andrew: I just think he’s drinking the Ministry Kool-Aid. He’s in that world; he’s consuming their line of thinking every day. He’s been away from the resistance, i.e. his family.

Micah: Do you think it has anything to do with what happened in Goblet of Fire, though? That he’s trying to prove himself maybe even more, just given how bad the situation was with Barty Crouch, Sr.?

Andrew: Yeah, that too.

Laura: I agree. I also think Percy is an example of somebody who probably shouldn’t be in a position of power, just because whoever it is who’s giving him power, he just tends to, as y’all were just saying, drink the Kool-Aid and just think that they can do no wrong and they must be in the right, so I think that as soon as Percy transitioned out of Hogwarts and he lost that power, and got to the Ministry, he found a new kind of power.

Andrew: Yeah. So some of these quotes, like Micah said, they’re just awful. So he says, [imitating Dr. Evil] “Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That was good.

Laura: Yeah, it was good.

Andrew: Micah, do you want to try one?

Micah: Should I go Dr. Evil, or do I want to go really deep, sinister voice?

Andrew: Do whatever you want. Ooh, I want to hear deep sinister.

Micah: [in a deep, sinister voice] “You do not want to be tarred with the same brush as Potter.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Ooh, I just got shivers. Oh my God.

Andrew: Laura, do your wickedness.

Laura: [in a wicked voice] “I know that he can be unbalanced and, for all I know, violent.”

Andrew: “… and for all I know, violent.” [laughs maniacally]

[Laura and Pat laugh]

Micah: All right, Pat, you’ve got to do one. Pick one.

Pat: [imitating Dr. Evil] “I urge you to speak with Dolores Umbridge, a really delightful woman, who I know will be only too happy to advise you.”

Andrew: [imitating Donald Trump] “Your loyalty, Ron, should not be to him, Dumbledore, but to the school and the Ministry.”

Micah: Oh, Donald. Welcome to the show.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, man. Okay, in talking about his parents: [in a sneering voice] “Petty criminals with whom they are currently rubbing shoulders.”

Andrew: Sickening. [imitating Donald Trump] “I sincerely hope that, in time, they will realize how mistaken they were and I shall, of course, be ready to accept a full apology when that day comes.”

Andrew and Laura: [imitating Donald Trump] “Sad.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That one actually works well in that voice.

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: Let’s talk a little bit about some of these statements. It’s certainly surprising to us as readers to learn that Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer; that actually gets brought up a number of times in Percy’s letter, and he talks about taking a look at the Daily Prophet tomorrow, so not good news for Alby.

Andrew: Yeah, you almost don’t believe Percy, right? It could just be Percy talking out of his butt that Dumbledore might be on his way out soon.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I think, too, at first, you kind of get the sense reading this letter that Percy has an over-inflated sense of importance, and you’re like, “Okay, how much do you really know?”

Andrew: Right, right. And we find out soon he actually does know plenty.

Pat: Yeah, because it almost comes off as him taunting them, like, [in a sing-song voice] “I know something you don’t know.”

Andrew: Right.

Micah: That gets to the whole point, though, of why Percy sent this letter in the first place. It starts off as a congratulatory note to Ron for making prefect, but do we think that he’s really happy for Ron/concerned about him, or do we feel maybe this is even an attempt by Fudge or Umbridge to sow some discord between Ron and Harry?

Andrew: I don’t think… no, I think Percy just wants to flaunt his inside knowledge, his position at the Ministry.

Pat: Yeah, if there’s any agenda behind it, I think that it’s to get another Weasley on his side so that he does have somebody in the family he can talk to regularly. Because I do think Percy misses being in contact with his family, so if he were able to get Ron onto his side with all the same views and everything, then he might be a little bit more happy and comfortable.

Andrew: And to me, Percy talks like Ron and Harry are merely acquaintances. He’s like, “Oh, that guy you know, Harry? Yeah, you shouldn’t be friends with him anymore.” Surely he knows that they’re actually best friends, and simply walking away from Harry is impossible. Not to mention Ron, of course, does not want to do that, because they are best friends.

Micah: Absolutely.

Laura: It does make me wonder if Percy is aware that his letter could be intercepted and read, because I mean, Harry stayed at the Weasleys’ house multiple summers and Percy knows how close they are, but maybe in the event that his letter is intercepted, he doesn’t want anybody reading it to know that he knows how close Harry and Ron are and that he’s oftentimes slept under the same roof as Harry.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I thought you were going to say he wrote it so that if it was intercepted, everybody could see how hard he was on his brother and how loyal he was to the Ministry.

Laura: I think that too.

Pat: I also… I’ve always kind of wondered if he maybe… the way that he’s speaking about Harry, maybe at one point Percy did have more friends, and when he became prefect, he cut them off because he knew that he was in power, so maybe he thinks Ron did the same thing where, because Harry didn’t get it, Ron has maybe cut him out because he has something to hold over him.

Andrew: Yeah, Percy definitely doesn’t have any friends, right? He’s got his coworker acquaintances, but who would want to be around this guy? I wouldn’t.

Micah: It’s very harsh words, though, saying that “you don’t want to be tarred with the same brush as Potter” and calling him unbalanced and violent. And I think it does hit Harry hard, even though he’s somewhat dismissive of it when Ron shows him the letter, and they kind of joke about it towards the end. But I do think this is a bitter pill to swallow, because this is somebody who’s part of a family that Harry has essentially considered himself a part of since the start of the series. And I don’t know if we’ve ever experienced moments like this, where we think we know somebody but then we learn the truth about how they really feel about us, and maybe we just overhear it, or we read something, and it’s like, “Whoa, where did that come from?” Totally unexpected.

Andrew: Well, I was just going to say, Harry is getting a taste of having his own crazy family members in his life.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Everybody’s got those, and now Percy is his, since he does consider himself a part of the Weasley family.

Micah: Yep. What do we make of Dolores Umbridge being “a really delightful woman”?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Does Percy truly think that?

Andrew: Yes!

Micah: You think so?

Andrew: He’s lost his mind! Like I said, he’s drinking the Ministry Kool-Aid. And of course, Umbridge is a pleasant woman in the eyes of most people at the Ministry at that level. She wants to control Hogwarts; that’s an appealing part of her character. I mean, she is a nice person, other than her evilness. She’s very polite. She’s well-spoken.

Laura: Yeah, if she likes you.

Pat: Yeah. She’s very strategic in her niceness.

Laura: I also love the contrast here in the descriptions of Umbridge in these letters. Harry is being very sarcastic in his, like, “She’s almost as nice as your mum,” and then Percy is like, “a truly delightful woman,” and he’s completely serious.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: All right, let’s just spend a little bit more on Percy’s letter here, but as it relates to his own family, because that, to me, is probably more telling than the bit about Harry. He references the “petty criminals” with whom the Weasleys are “currently rubbing shoulders,” and then just flat out says that he expects an apology sometime in the future for all that they’ve been doing with respect to the Order of the Phoenix. Do we think Percy has a good idea of the fact that his family, particularly his parents, are in the Order? He references these “petty criminals.” Who is he talking about? Is he talking about Mundungus? Is he talking about Podmore, who’s now been sent off to Azkaban?

Andrew: Well, considering his view on Harry, I think he’s talking about that entire group of people. He just holds all these people in low regard, and I don’t know if he realizes he’s exaggerating here, but he is exaggerating by just putting this whole blanket “petty criminal” description over all of them.

Micah: Yeah, he’s definitely painting with a broad brush here, and it’s just sad to see that that’s what’s become of Percy, and this is how he views his family.

Laura: And given how much stress we’ve seen this put on the Weasley family, especially Mrs. Weasley, who you can’t say Percy’s name in front of her without her bursting into tears, could you imagine if she were to read something like this that her son said about her?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Yeah, it would devastate her.

Andrew: Yeah, this would break her heart.

Micah: Well, the one benefit of all of this, as we mentioned just before, is that Hermione offers to help Harry and Ron out with their homework. And this was just one of the… I wanted to talk a little bit, though, about what do we think is going on inside of Harry’s mind and what’s going on inside of Ron’s? But do we think Ron is really embarrassed by this? What do we think the effect is on him? Let’s remember what he’s just been through as well with the Quidditch practice. I mean, he’s not having the best day either here.

Pat: I think he is embarrassed. I don’t think that if Harry and Hermione were with him… if he got the letter alone, I don’t think he would have showed them.

Micah: That’s interesting.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, they are used to Percy being this way, so it’s not like it would come as a shock to Harry and Hermione that he’s talking like this.

Laura: And he sits there and rips the letter up and throws it in the fire in front of Harry and Hermione.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it’s embarrassing, but look, it’s just like when you have a crazy family member. You just say, “Oh, there goes crazy Aunt Sue again. We’re so used to her talking like this; it’s just more of the same.” Just family.

Micah: That’s fair. Well, speaking of the fireplace, Sirius shows up, and one of the things that Harry forgot to mention to Ron and Hermione is that he had sent a letter out to his godfather on Saturday morning. But I know this has been portrayed a couple of different ways in the films, right?

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Sirius’s face popping up in Goblet of Fire is different from Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s funny because I think the effect in Goblet of Fire was one of the worst effects in the Harry Potter series. It looks like Sirius is coming up for a breath? His face is the fire, so to speak.

Pat: Yeah, it’s in the embers.

Laura: Yeah, it’s the coals.

Andrew: Right.

Pat: Which I hated. I’m so glad they fixed it.

Andrew: And it was hard to make out. And then in Order of the Phoenix – and maybe we can link to this side by side; there’s a side by side that we found – in Order of the Phoenix he’s in the flames, as opposed to in the embers, and it looks better. It’s definitely easier to make his face out, but I think… I still remember the first time seeing that in Goblet of Fire. It was like, you can barely make out his face. So that was definitely a good change. But like I said, one of the worst special effects in the Harry Potter film series, in my opinion.

Laura: Oh, and I don’t know if you remember this, but we made so much fun of that effect on this show back in the day.

Andrew: Ohh. No.

Laura: We were like, “What intern made this?”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Did they run out of money for this effect so this is all they could come up with?”

Pat: Yeah. I remember being so angry when I saw that the first time. I was like, “What is this?”

Andrew: Really? Oh, yeah.

Pat: “This is terrible.”

Andrew: See, this is why they’ve got to redo the Harry Potter movies. Turn it into a TV show. Do the fire effect right.

Pat: Because how I think it should be done… do you remember at the end of the fifth movie when Bellatrix is sucked into the fire? That’s how I picture it should be. It should be their bodies surrounded by flames, not like an illusion in the flame.

Andrew: It was also just so surprising because the special effects in the Harry Potter films from start to finish were really good, even in the first couple movies before they knew what this would become, when the budgets may have been smaller. And of course, it was a different time; it was early 2000s. Those special effects were good. And then you get to Goblet of Fire and you see this fire effect, Sirius sticking his head through the embers. It’s like, “No. No-no.”

Micah: Yeah. Well, it was the same kind of thing with… I don’t know why it reminds me of Michael Gambon when Harry’s name pops out of the Goblet of Fire.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: It’s almost like he needs sunglasses because of the effect. It’s like they could have done that a whole lot better, too. Well, speaking of the movies, we do talk about all the different things that Harry put in his letter, the first of which is Umbridge, and Sirius has a very iconic line that actually he ends up saying to Harry at King’s Cross, but it’s in the books delivered in this moment, and that’s “The world isn’t split into good people and Death Eaters.” And so this is Sirius’s interpretation of Umbridge, but I think it’s a mischaracterization because I think Umbridge would be somebody who would easily put on a Death Eater cloak and serve Voldemort.

Laura: Really? I’ve kind of always viewed her to be a bit like Sirius’s parents. He talks about them earlier on in the book and says, “Oh, no, no, no, they would have never been Death Eaters themselves, but they certainly thought the Death Eaters had the right idea.” So they were supportive of that ideology, but would not have actually put themselves in the fray.

Andrew and Pat: Yeah.

Pat: I think the same.

Micah: Really?

Laura: This is also why I said Umbridge was lawful evil in last week’s episode, because she’s just got… she so cleaves to the rules and how she can use them to benefit her own agenda.

Micah: Yeah, I guess that’s right. I mean, she clearly shares certain ideologies with the Death Eaters and with Voldemort, but she chairs the Muggle-born Registration Commission and she oversees those trials, and I believe that results in some of those people’s deaths. So I mean, I guess she’s, to your point, just a different kind of evil.

Pat: I think, too, she doesn’t see herself as needing to hide behind a mask where most of the Death Eaters do.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: She’s willing to just be out there in the open, being herself, and really, much like throwing her point of view out there, where the Death Eaters are still hiding behind a leader and then also hiding behind a mask.

Andrew: Which is a worse way to describe Umbridge. She doesn’t even want to hide the fact that she’s a Death Eater; she just is without the mask.

Pat: Right.

Micah: Yeah, and she’s a pure-blood maniac, despite having Muggle parentage, at least on one side. So in a way, she is very much like Tom Riddle, very much like Voldemort. We learn that she drafted some anti-werewolf legislation not long after Lupin’s tenure at Hogwarts, making it very difficult for him to find additional work, and she recently campaigned to have merpeople rounded up, so I’m sure that would go over extremely well with the ones that live in the Black Lake.

Andrew: Yeah, and I mean, that one cracks me up because it’s like, they’re always in the lake, no? It’s not like they’re walking around on the streets, so why do they bother you so much? You never even see them.

Laura: I mean, it is definitely reminiscent of… there are certain ideologies here in the real world in which people want to have some kind of tracking on certain groups of people because they’re afraid of them, ultimately, with no good reason. Because pretty sure Umbridge never would go into a body of water, so I don’t know what she’s afraid is going to happen to her.

Micah: And there’s a really great article – I think we mentioned this when Andy was on the show – on WizardingWorld.com about Umbridge and her family history, and it really gives you a much clearer insight into who she is as a person and why she’s so power hungry, and the pure-blood mania. She’s really a truly evil person at heart. Couple other points of conversation between the trio and Sirius: Hermione advises Sirius on Kreacher, and that actually prompts a very quick subject change. So I think again, it’s just J.K. Rowling’s writing letting the reader know that it’s really important that Sirius and Kreacher try and find some common ground. We learn that the Ministry believes that Dumbledore is actually working to form an army at Hogwarts, and we know that that has payoff later on, so… and then, despite everything that’s going on, despite the article that we referenced in the Daily Prophet, Sirius thinks it might be a good idea for them to all meet up in Hogsmeade.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: This is just so, so completely reckless, and it just shows that Sirius is surely feeling the effects of being cooped up in Grimmauld Place, but he’s just not thinking straight.

Andrew: No, and he likes to gamble, like you said earlier. He wants to be reckless, and he’s looking for a hit of dopamine, and for him, that’s going out there and potentially getting himself in trouble.

Micah: And he compares him to James, to his father, but he says that the thrill would have been half the fun of it, or… I’m paraphrasing, obviously, but he needs to remember that he’s an adult now, right? And that he’s not talking to James; he’s talking to James’s son. And the risk now on something like this is far greater than something that the two of them, or the Marauders, would have been doing during their time at Hogwarts. We’re talking about Voldemort being back and him potentially putting himself in a situation where he could get killed.

Andrew: Yeah. J.K. Rowling doesn’t let Harry think on this line much, but I thought that this would hurt Harry, this line, “You’re less like your father than I thought,” because Harry prides himself in hearing about his father and how he is similar to his father, and then to hear from his father’s best friend that he’s actually not as similar to James as he once thought… I would be sad about that.

Laura: That’s hurtful, but I also think that this is a little bit of foreshadowing, because we learn later on in the book that Harry’s father was actually kind of a bully, and that Harry’s nature is actually a lot more like Lily’s, like his mother.

Pat: I think that’s also why she throws in at the end of the book when Sirius calls Harry “James” when they’re fighting at the Ministry. I think that’s why she throws that line in there too, just because we had this moment now so Harry can be like, “Oh, maybe I am a little hurt by this,” but then gets a little bit redeemed before she kills Sirius.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. That’s only in the movie, though, right?

Pat: I thought it happened in the book too.

Andrew: I thought we heard from people that that only happened in the movie. I’m pretty sure that’s a movie-ism.

Pat: Maybe.

Micah: But regardless, I mean, it’s still there, whether it’s the book or the movie.

Andrew: Well, yes. Not J.K. Rowling-approved, but that’s okay.

Micah: [laughs] Well, I assume she signed off on the film.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: But I just think it’s tough for Harry to be put in this situation because he goes from the Percy letter, to Sirius, when that’s supposed to be sort of a uplifting moment for him, and the way that it ends, it’s got to leave him feeling like crap. It’s, like I said, bitter Sirius. He’s acting like a child, almost, in this moment where he basically slams the… think about with your parents; you slam the door on them when you don’t want to talk to them anymore. Or however you go about… you hang up the phone on somebody, is basically what Sirius is doing here.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, those are our thoughts on Chapter 14. The Umbridge Suck count will remain unchanged at 21, correct?

Micah: Really? You want to keep it at 21? We don’t want to give her one for the Percy reference?

Andrew: Okay. Yeah, I mean, she doesn’t appear in the chapter.

Pat: I think at least for the werewolf stuff.

Laura: Well, what about trying to tag the merpeople?

Andrew: My apologies. We need to punish her, so she’s going to get an extra two points today.

[Laura and Pat laugh]

Andrew: One for the anti-werewolf legislation…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Okay, and then one more for wanting to round up the merpeople.

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Great.

Micah: And you’re going to work on changing that sound, right?

Andrew: Yeah, Micah gave me some work to do, and I’ll get to it, Micah. Don’t worry.

Micah: Okay.


Connecting the Threads


Andrew: Laura, what threads did you discover?

Laura: So there is this interesting correlation between Harry and Sirius in both Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix of both of them being prisoners, right? So in Prisoner of Azkaban, it’s because Sirius has literally escaped from Azkaban after being there for 12 years, but he can’t really be out in the open; and Harry, because he thinks that Sirius is trying to hunt him down, also can’t be out in the open. Because of this, Harry is not able to do things like go to Hogsmeade. He can’t have a normal childhood because of this. But he sneaks into Hogsmeade under the Invisibility Cloak in Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban, which slips and exposes him to Malfoy. Then in Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, Harry has to dissuade Sirius from sneaking into Hogsmeade as Snuffles, because he knows that Malfoy can recognize his Animagus form and would probably report back to his father, which would then make its way back to the Ministry, undoubtedly. So there’s this definite theme of Harry and Sirius being – whether physically or socially – imprisoned, that is an arc that both of their characters absolutely have in common throughout both of these books. Then, in terms of the hunt for Sirius, it’s really interesting. Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban takes place immediately after the scene in which Ron wakes up in Chapter 13 to Sirius standing over his bed with a knife; in Chapter 14, Sirius evades capture and continues to be among the missing. But in Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, Sirius is correctly pinpointed as being in London, so we have this nice contrast of Sirius being missing and then Sirius being located and reported in the Daily Prophet. And then we have this overall theme that happens a lot in Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix of Ministry interference at Hogwarts, and these chapters have a couple of, I think, pretty direct correlations. So we learn in Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban that Buckbeak has been sentenced to death for attacking Draco Malfoy, and then in Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, Sirius is the one who reveals to Harry, Ron, and Hermione that Fudge is deliberately stunting their educational development because he’s afraid of the students rising up against the Ministry, so it’s definitely representative of an escalation in terms of how much the Ministry is interfering. But I thought it was pretty interesting that these events both happened in Chapter 14.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Laura: Some pretty good planning on the part of J.K. Rowling.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, it’s time for our MVPs of the Week. I’m going to give it to Percy, believe it or not, just for reminding us that family isn’t perfect.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Yeah, most valuable prick of the week as well.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Wow, two awards in one week for him. Good job, Percy.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] I had a really hard time picking an MVP of the Week because I feel like everyone in this chapter is kind of garbage; nobody really stands out as having a great moment, and I feel like we see the worst of everyone here, so I think I’m going to have to give it to Sirius, just because he’s the only person who actually provides Harry with pertinent information about what’s going on. But he’s still a child.

Andrew: Well, there was one very good person in this chapter, right, Micah?

Micah: Yeah, I thought so. I would give it to Cho Chang. I thought she really came through for Harry when they were in the owlery, lifted his spirits up. Made him get that little nervous “I got a crush on you” feeling where his insides burned and he felt like he was floating on air. And to your point, Andrew, she came to his defense twice, and…

Andrew: That’s love.

Micah: That’s love, yeah. So Cho gets the MVP award.

Andrew: We all want a Cho in our lives.

Pat: I’m going to give it to the Blood Blisterpod, because without it, Harry and Ron would have been doing homework way later into the night.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That’s fair.

Andrew: Is that the first time we’ve given the MVP of the Week to an inanimate object?

Pat: No, I gave it to the table one time.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, that’s your thing when you’re on the show; you just don’t give it to people. Got it.

Micah: Could have given it to Hermes, also, for carrying that trash from Percy all the way to Hogwarts.

[Andrew laughs]


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Let’s rename the chapter now. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Percy and the Big One.” That has, like, a triple meaning to it.

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: Please explain.

Andrew: Well, I mean, Percy’s letter, and Hagrid.

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Weasley Shade,” because there’s normally a lot of shade directed towards the Weasley family, but in this chapter, there’s a lot of internal Weasley family shade being thrown around.

Andrew: The Weasleys strike back.

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Weekend at Hogwarts.”

Andrew: You love the fact that it was set over the weekend.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Yeah, it’s kind of like Weekend at Bernie’s.

Andrew: Right, I got it.

Micah: I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that movie. It’s not really like Weekend at Bernie’s at all…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: … but I kind of drew inspiration from that, at least from the title.

Andrew: Okay.

Pat: And I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Frustration and Procrastination.”

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s episode, email us; MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also send us a voice memo that way. We need to get back to voice memos and voicemails. We apologize. Next week, we will discuss Chapter 15, so if you have any feedback about that chapter, please let us know, and we may air it on the podcast.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch. As Micah said earlier in the episode, last week’s question was: What does Cho refer to Ron as? The answer is “Tornado hater.” Congratulations to Anne, Reese Withoutherspoon, Tara, Stacy, Marie, and Samwise for correctly answering that question. This week’s question: McGonagall has been teaching at Hogwarts for how many years? Umbridge asks this question of McGonagall in the next chapter. This little line kind of came back to haunt J.K. Rowling after she put McGonagall in the Crimes of Grindelwald

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … because McGonagall’s answer doesn’t really line up with what we see in Fantastic Beasts.

Laura: Yeah, neither does her birthday, but…

Andrew: Right, right.

Micah: Small details.

Andrew: [laughs] So we can touch on that a little bit next week. To play, just tweet us. Our username is @MuggleCast. Also, use the hashtag “Quizzitch,” so we can easily find these answers. And by the way, if you want to follow us on social media, like I said, on Twitter, we are username @MuggleCast. We are also MuggleCast on Facebook and Instagram, so just search for us, and we would love if you liked us. Also, please join our community of listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By doing so, you’ll be supporting this podcast; we’re only weekly because of you. Our Patreon actually just turned four the other day. It’s crazy to think that the Patreon itself has been around for four years now; that time has flown by, and we have some really exciting benefits coming up in the year ahead. I think you will want to be a part of our Patreon once you hear about our physical gift, and the sooner you pledge, the sooner you will get this year’s physical gift. So hit up Patreon.com/MuggleCast; pledge at the $2, $5, or $10 levels today. To get that physical gift, you will have to be pledged at $5 or higher. You’ll get access to our recording studio, so you’ll be able to listen live as we record on typically Saturday or Sunday mornings. You also get access to bonus MuggleCast; you’ll be a part of our focus group, our exclusive Facebook group, so many benefits, and you can access everything that we’ve posted over the past four years, so if you pledge today, you will have tons of content to go through. That does it for this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Pat: And I’m Pat.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #449

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #449, Torturous Toad (OOTP 13, Detention With Dolores)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. This is Episode 449. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: We are without Micah this week, but we are joined by another M, and this is a listener, a Slug Club member over on Patreon, Megan. Hi, Megan. Welcome to the show.

Megan: Hello.

Andrew: It’s good to have you on. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Megan: My name is Megan. My favorite book is Order of the Phoenix, actually, so I’m really excited to be on.

Andrew: Perfect.

Megan: Favorite movie is Chamber of Secrets. My Hogwarts House is Hufflepuff; Ilvermorny is Thunderbird. My Patronus is an eagle, which I think makes me a true Huffleclaw.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Megan: And my favorite teacher at Hogwarts… this took me a while to decide, but I’m going to go with Lupin.

Andrew: Okay, yeah. Well, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you on, and thank you for your support on Patreon; we really appreciate it. And on today’s episode, we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter unlucky 13, “Detention with Dolores,” and this chapter is definitely very unlucky. But first, a news item. A lot of people got excited about this; I was unsure how people were going to take this news. [laughs] The first official Harry Potter flagship store is going to be opening in New York later this summer. They are promising a brand new and unique experience dedicated to Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts; it will house the largest collection of Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts products in the world under one roof. Fans will be able to grab Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans, personalized robes – whatever that means – along with rare collectible items, hand-signed artwork, and exclusive ranges. They also are going to have House wands, whatever that means.

Laura: Yeah, I’m very curious about that.

Andrew: Are they going to be red, green, blue, yellow?

Laura: Maybe they light up in the House colors.

Eric: Ohh, like how Harry’s wand shoots red sparks in the books?

Andrew: That would be neat. This is one of those ideas I’m surprised hasn’t come into existence sooner, because we all love our House robes, our scarves, our House edition books – which we’ve spoken about in recent years – but never the wand. The wand has never been personalized by House, and one could argue that the wand is the most personal item in the wizarding world for a witch or wizard, so to combine the personalization of the House with the wand, that sounds pretty special. I think I would buy one of those.

Eric: I think maybe they’ve reached the peak of selling those individual character wands, though, is what it is. It’s like, for 15 years – give or take 5 – they’ve been selling Bellatrix’s wand, Voldemort’s wand, Harry’s wand, Hermione’s wand, and so they’ve gotten a majority of the sales they’re going to get out of those. I think they’ll probably still sell them at this flagship store, but the House wand is a genuinely new idea, like you’re saying. Like, “Oh, we never thought of this.” Could be a cool idea.

Andrew: Yeah, right. So what do you guys think about this overall flagship Harry Potter store? [laughs] I don’t think we ever would have predicted this would be coming.

Eric: I’m not sure that this is something that the fans couldn’t do better, I guess? I mean, in certain ways, yes, official licensed merchandise, great. But I wouldn’t have expected a hub of this commercialism. I guess it was both inevitable, and it’s a shame for me to see it, because I was just at the Primark store in Boston a couple months ago, right after LeakyCon, and they’ve got an entire half floor of licensed Harry Potter merchandise that is otherwise, you can’t find it anywhere else, and that is appealing for people who want to do gift givings. I did most of my Christmas gifts from there, and all that stuff. So it makes sense, but I also liked sort of the thrill of there’s certain things you find at Primark; there’s certain things you find at Universal, at the theme park. I don’t know. I’m torn, because at the same time, we have a lot of… I had just decided to support fan artists and fan creators on Etsy and things.

Andrew: Right, you’re out of luck.

Eric: Well, we can still do that.

Andrew: You’re not going to be able to visit. Yeah, but you committed, so you can’t… I mean, you can walk in here, but you can’t buy anything. I’m sorry.

Eric: You know what? I will accept that. I will absolutely accept that. This has came at the worst time because I had just agreed to not buy anything offi… and I won’t.

Andrew: And they’re taunting you. [laughs]

Eric: I’m going to… yeah, I think that’s it.

Andrew: Laura, Megan, what do you think? Is this something that sounds appealing, or does this sound like just a cash grab?

Laura: I think it just depends on how it’s done. If it’s done well, I think it could be a great experience. I mean, I see here in the notes that there’s a walk-up window, and they’ve got signage outside for coffee and ice cream and butterbeer. So while I might not necessarily be tempted to go on a shopping spree here, it could be a cool experience to just walk in and look around.

Andrew: Yeah. I love coffee…

Laura: Me too.

Andrew: [laughs] … and I was very intrigued by them selling coffee. If they’re going to do some sort of Harry Potter coffee and they’re going to call it as such, I would be extremely into that. And please sell grounds that I can take home and brew at home. And yeah, you also mentioned the butterbeer and the ice cream. I feel like they are going to be selling the same butterbeer that is available in the theme parks; the Studio Tour does this. I think this is kind of just an extension of what we see in the Studio Tour in London. I’m sure the interior is going to be beautiful like the theme park stores, the design and care that they put into the theme park, so I’ll be very eager to check this out. I do also see a mention of Wizarding Passport right in the storefront, which is pretty interesting, too, so I’m sure this is going to be a big way to promote Wizarding World Gold as well. Maybe they’ll have a special lounge for Wizarding World Gold members. Micah and I can go hang out.

Eric: Oooh. Okay, a lounge seems fun.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Maybe they’ll actually have pins when Micah walks in and tries to get one.

Andrew: Yes, I bet this will become a location where you can get those pins.

Eric: But then the other thing is that we’ve been talking recently about a potential permanent home for the Exhibition once it stops touring, and it’s been over, I think, 11 years now for the Harry Potter Exhibition, so could it possibly just end up, I don’t know, adjacent to this building? On the other side of this building, wherever this building is going to be?

Andrew: I don’t know much about this building, but I’m looking at the concept art, and it’s four stories. They say the shop is three stories, so is the fourth floor for storage? Or to Eric’s point, could that be saved for future expansion, say, an exhibition or more merchandise?

Eric: It’s your Wizarding World Passport lounge, Andrew. It’s an entire floor.

Andrew: Ah, yes, where we can play Harry Potter video games; we can listen to Harry Potter podcasts; we can complain about where buttons are. I don’t know.

Eric: [laughs] I’m glad you mentioned podcasts. Well, I’m glad you mentioned podcasts because do you think there’ll be a dedicated event space?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: For whatever they want to do? You know how the fourth floor of Barnes & Noble Union Square…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: … has that just whole area for crowds? The little mini raised stage and seating area for reading books, and when there’s not an event going on, it’s independent reading time? But I’m wondering if the official store will throw fans a bone there or… but not even fans a bone; just give an opportunity for itself to be an event space.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point. I mean, this store could turn into a central hub for all things Harry Potter. Hosting events, as you say. Maybe hosting some charity events. All kinds of things. Final point on this: This is coming into existence because, like I said a few weeks ago, people are still really passionate about Harry Potter, and they’re still very eager to buy merchandise. And you mentioned that shop, Eric, that has a special Harry Potter section; Barnes & Noble has them too. BoxLunch, Hot Topic… everywhere you go, Harry Potter merchandise is available, and it seems to be selling really well, and they’ve got all kinds of partnerships with Pottery Barn and… you name it, they’ve got a partnership. So I feel like they recognize that Harry Potter merchandise sales are still strong, so strong that they could create a flagship store in New York, and it’ll be really successful because they know people still really want to buy the merchandise. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you see one of these in Chicago’s Magnificent Mile, in San Francisco because Cursed Child is also there… anywhere Harry Potter fans are going, one of these could be opening up one day. More to come. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, just a reminder: We are running on a bit of a new schedule now. MuggleCast has been moved to Tuesday releases so we have more time to put our rubber ducks in a row and get the episode out to you reliably first thing Tuesday morning, so before you head out to work on Tuesday morning, check for MuggleCast; it will be there. That is our goal going forward. Also excited to announce a new Patreon benefit. We plan to announce a few later in the year, but one we can announce now: New patrons who sign up at Patreon.com/MuggleCast will get a personalized video message from one of the four cohosts. This is really exciting; we’re using a new tool that lets us easily see who our latest patrons are and then send you a personalized video message. We’re going to have a lot of fun with these, so pledge at any level to receive one of these video messages over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Eric, I would like you to do cosplay for some of your thank you videos. Can you do that?

Eric: [laughs] Well, maybe we’ll have a little option. People should choose whether I’m a Gryffindor or a Hufflepuff or Elvis Dumbledore for their video, and give that option.

Andrew: [laughs] And Laura, what can we have you do that would be fun?

Laura: Oh, gosh. I was thinking of making it almost like a Hogwarts acceptance letter, but a Patreon acceptance video.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Ooh, that’s a good idea.

Laura: Like, “Dear Mr… I don’t know, Sims. We’re pleased to inform you that you’ve been accepted at the School of Patreon and MuggleCast.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Podcasting wizardry.

Laura: Yeah, there we go.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s great. These are going to be fun because we actually take the time to make a message for each person, so I think it’ll be exciting for people to check these out, so we’ll have fun with that. Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get that and a lot more, including the chance to cohost MuggleCast one day, like Megan is today. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, we have a returning sponsor this week who’s here just in time for the new year.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. Like I said, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Detention with Dolores,” and let’s start with our seven-word summary. Megan, you get to start. No pressure.

Megan: Okay. New…

Laura: Ooh… detention…

Eric: … arrives…

Andrew: New detention arrives… for…

Megan: … Harry…

Laura: … via…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … torture.

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: Wow, how pleasant.

Eric: That’s what it is, right? We can all kind of agree.

Laura: Oh, yeah. 100%.

Andrew: It is absolutely torture, for sure.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: And before we dive into the play by play analysis here, I just wanted to ask about Chapter 13 in general. Do you guys think – because this is a horrific chapter because of what Umbridge does to Harry – do we think Rowling purposely planned for such a permanent addition to Harry’s hands to occur in Chapter 13? Do you think she was like, “I need to do something really bad”? Well, “I’m going to do something really bad to Harry; let me do it specifically in Chapter 13.”

Laura: Yeah, I think so, because we have some wonderful notes here, actually, that indicate that the 13th chapter of each book contains some kind of major event for Harry that tends to be a bit unlucky. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, so I went through each Chapter 13. As I was doing this, though, I was thinking like, “Something bad happens to Harry in literally every chapter ever,” so maybe…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, that’s true.

Andrew: In Sorcerer’s Stone, Harry is worried about Snape refereeing the Quidditch match. Chamber of Secrets – this is a big one – Tom Riddle’s diary is discovered. That’s pretty unlucky. Prisoner of Azkaban: Gryffindors win a Quidditch match, so that one, not unlucky.

Laura: Well, in that chapter, though, that is when Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle all dress up as Dementors and come onto the Quidditch pitch to try and throw Harry’s game, because he’s already had trouble with that.

Andrew: Okay. But he soldiers through and still wins it, so that’s good. Goblet of Fire: This was a big one. Trelawney makes predictions. She, as usual, says that death comes ever closer, and then she claims Harry was born midwinter, and that’s not true. And while he wasn’t, Voldemort was, and Harry is a Horcrux, so maybe she was sensing the Horcrux within Harry. That’s something that you only realize after getting through the rest of the series. In Half-Blood Prince, we dive into the memory in which Dumbledore invites Tom Riddle to Hogwarts. You could argue that was unlucky.

Laura: Well, yeah, we saw Tom Riddle’s whole tragic childhood. And this is such a cool, I think, connecting the threads between Half-Blood Prince and Chamber of Secrets, because when Harry goes into Tom Riddle’s diary, one of his observations is how similar the two of them are; he really identifies with Tom Riddle. And then we get to see Tom Riddle’s background, and they both have this equally tragic childhood.

Eric: Yeah, and the diary was purchased in a Muggle shop in London, I think, which is a little clue of Tom Riddle’s origins.

Andrew: And then finally, in Deathly Hallows, the trio enter the Ministry, and Harry hexes Umbridge, so that’s a good one to bring up in light of what happens in this chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Some sweet revenge.

Eric: Yeah. But otherwise, the chapter picks up right where the last one left off. It’s right after Harry and McGonagall and the biscuits, which is a really nice scene, but Harry is encountering a lot of whispers, not even behind his back anymore. When he goes into the Great Hall, people are openly gawking, staring, speaking, and Harry really takes umbrage at that, and it’s Hermione who has to say, “Harry, you don’t know what it’s like. The Ministry has been smearing you, the Daily Prophet has been smearing you, and this is what that looks like.” I do want to ask the question, as always, what could Dumbledore have done to prevent this backlash?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: A question that could be asked in any chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: What could Dumbledore have done, and why didn’t he do it? Yeah, I think he should have made another statement to the school, because he’s seeing these kids have these inaccurate views of Harry, and it’s not healthy for Harry; it’s not healthy for the school; it’s not healthy for these students to be misled.

Eric: It’s just this chapter in particular, especially because of what happens with Umbridge and Harry, I always… I’m just like, man, it’s a real shame that Dumbledore has employed a policy of no talky-talky to Harry, because they should be hand in hand on some of these issues.

Andrew: Yeah, and what’s something we learn when we grow up? We should be open about our feelings. We should be open about things. Let it out there. There’s this wall between them, and it’s not good for either of them. Well, mainly for Harry. But I also did want to ask, do we blame the students for not believing Harry and Dumbledore? Because if we put ourselves in their shoes, they didn’t see Voldemort. They’re reading these reports in the Daily Prophet.

Laura: Yeah, and also, much like Seamus, they’re parroting their parents. They’re parroting what they’ve heard at home all summer, and that’s just what kids do. I mean, we see this in the real world all the time. I mean, I think we’ve all encountered somebody who says something that’s a little bit out of left field, and you’re like, “Oh, you heard that at home, didn’t you?” And it’s not the child’s fault. Hopefully as they’re progressing throughout their education and getting closer to coming of age, they begin thinking for themselves, which we see that transition later. But no, it’s not their fault.

Megan: If it was me, I don’t know if I would straight up believe Harry. I wouldn’t want to put blind trust in him, just because he just came back with Cedric’s dead body. I would ask questions like, “How did he die?” instead of just, I don’t know, believing the Ministry, like, “Oh, nothing happened.” So I would at least question it, even if I didn’t outright believe Harry without anything.

Eric: I wonder if the outburst from Harry really prompted Umbridge to, I don’t know, prepare an actual line about what happened to Cedric Diggory. We were talking about this last episode, but also for the rest of her classes, because she’s the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for every level at Hogwarts, so she could very easily reach all the students within the next week or so to really, I don’t know, ease some tensions? It’s a good opportunity for Dumbledore to say something again because this is an area where Umbridge has just failed to provide answers. Maybe Dumbledore really could say something, and he wouldn’t need to talk to Harry to do it. He could just get up on the podium, make an announcement, and have that be that. “There will be no further questions at this time. It really happened. That’s my stance.”

Andrew: Yeah. I will play devil’s advocate against myself and the rest of you now, though, because now that Umbridge is in the school, I don’t think he can do this. Umbridge would stop it somehow. She would step up right after he was talking – she would “Heh-hem” her way into the speech – and say, “Everything that Dumbledore is saying is not true.” She would do something to disrupt the message that Dumbledore was trying to spread.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And to that point, I also think that Dumbledore is not unaware of all of the happenings over the summer. I mean, the Daily Prophet has been smearing him. He was booted out of the Wizengamot, so he understands what it looks like. And I think from an optics standpoint, it could just end up coming across to people who were already predisposed to think he’s crazy to think, “Oh, here goes grandpa again.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Kooky grandpa spreading his nonsense.

Eric: Yeah. I think Dumbledore does have to be careful, to your point, about his disobedience. He has to really toe the line in his own way, because it’s a very precarious position that we find him in. We know that the Ministry removes him later this year, so he can definitely sense the wind going. But speaking of disobedience, it was just this morning that Hermione, with Ron cowering in a chair somewhere, had to go up to Fred and George and tell them off about their experiments on children, but when Harry and Hermione go up to the Gryffindor common room, what should they see except Fred and George with a bunch of young kids, first years or so, coming in, and they’re passing out Fainting Fancies. This is way over the top, as far as I’m concerned. This is a moment where Fred and George, who I normally love, completely lost me, because we know they like to break the rules, but this is a direct affront – at this point, it’s personal – between them and Hermione. Hermione is trying to protect the children of Gryffindor. She’s trying to protect, really, pretty much everybody besides Fred and George from getting into trouble, and they’ve just so blatantly disregarded her.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s because they know they can get away with it. They know they can push their luck, at least. They know Ron is not going to approach them; they’re hoping that Hermione doesn’t try to approach them, and they just aren’t scared of Ron and Hermione, so they just go for it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: So Hermione… they really activated her trap card here. “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll write your mother.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and that was brilliant. I think, Eric, you had a point about this, though, that it’s not below the belt? I think it is below the belt. They are scared of their mother. They know a Howler could be sent, and they don’t want to face that, or another summer… I guess they could live on their own at this point, but they don’t want to face their mother’s wrath. And maybe they’re also considering the fact that their mother is pretty fragile right now.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: If you think back to what happened at 12 Grimmauld Place… they don’t want to upset her. They don’t want to stress her out more than she already is because of course, deep down, they care about their mother and they don’t want to hurt her, so to think that their mother might be hurt by this mischief that they’re up to, that hurts.

Eric: So what makes it below the belt? I think it’s perfectly fair. I think it puts what they’re doing in perspective.

Laura: Agree.

Eric: I mean, well, and Hermione only totes it out as a matter of last resort because she’s asked Ron to join her multiple times. “Ron, you coming? Ron, you…?” He says, “I think you got this,” whatever, whatever. He shrinks away. And she even asked them, and then they say that it’s okay because they’re paying the students who are volunteering, and I’m thinking two things. One, I’m thinking, does that make it okay? Because Harry, who’s watching the whole thing from across the room, instinctively feels like they didn’t properly tell the kids what they’d be getting into. They seem to be confused when they wake up from their fainting, and so Harry is like, “Yeah, they definitely didn’t tell people.” And then second, whose money are they using to pay these kids, by the way, for their being test subjects? Is it part of the thousand Galleons? Because I think that Harry probably wouldn’t enjoy seeing his money used in that way.

Andrew: No, probably not. [laughs]

Eric: So it’s just very problematic, and so I feel like Hermione needed to put a stop to it. She was getting zero support from Ron, and slightly more support – but not much – from Harry, and I think that bringing in their mother was the only thing she could do reasonably to get it to stop.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: Short of taking a hundred points from Gryffindor House, which affects everybody.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, Fred and George do mention that they’ve already tested all the products on themselves just to make sure that they’re not poisonous or detrimental in any way, but what if one of these kids had some kind of allergy?

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Exactly. Testing them on themselves does not mean that these things are safe, because as you say, Laura, other bodies can have different reactions to these treats.

Eric: And just the previous chapter, they said there’s no cure for the Nosebleed Nougat.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Just bleed out.

Eric: Yeah, they just bleed out. You shrivel up, he says.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So I honestly think that maybe they haven’t been testing all of them on yourselves. But the point about the allergy is the good one, so I’m glad, at least for now, it seems like Fred and George are having their, I don’t know, regular cavalier processes put into check. But if Hermione didn’t do it, nobody would be doing it.

Andrew: No.

Eric: And we mentioned this last… Micah, I think, mentioned this last week as well, but where are the Head Boy? Where are the Head Girl? Who are they? Presuming they’re here to put a stop to it. But really, Fred and George are running rampant. It’s kind of… for me, seeing them usually brings a smile to my face, and this time, it was the opposite. I was like, “These guys actually kind of suck right now, because this is the last thing any of us need.”

Andrew: That’s why Micah isn’t here this week, by the way; he went to go look for the Head Boy and Girl.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And he’s also going to try… he’s going to sample some biscuits over in England while he’s over there. He’s really curious.

Eric: It’s funny, though, because I also turn on a dime when it comes to thinking about Hermione in this chapter, because very next, she comes back to where Ron and Harry are sitting and starts pulling out these hats that she’s been knitting for the house-elves. [laughs] And this is a point where I can’t get with Hermione on this. She is deliberately hiding these hats underneath rubbish that we know the house-elves are the ones who clean up, tidy up around here. She is attempting to free Hogwarts elf labor without doing it through the proper channels. This is a guerrilla campaign to free them.

Andrew: Right, right, and that’s the problem. That seems below Hermione to try and free them in this way. Why not go to Dumbledore or McGonagall and put on a presentation on why these house-elves should be freed and how Hogwarts can still run without the house-elves? Her mission is good; I don’t think anybody wants to fault her for freeing the house-elves. However, the way she’s going about it is all wrong. And then it also seems below Hermione to assume that this plan is actually working, because it’s noted multiple times that these hats are disappearing very frequently, and she can barely keep up with the demand for these hats, but of course, as we learn later, it’s been Dobby who’s taking them all because the house-elves are insulted by somebody trying to free them.

Eric: [laughs] She actually is doing more work for Dobby because he’s the only one who’ll go near the Gryffindor common room.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Eric: But actually, even though that’s a funny development, and we learn it later, it brings up the question: Would this actually work? If the house-elves were to pick up clothes… we assume they do the laundry, right? I mean, we assume they do Hogwarts students’ robes all the time, so they pick up clothes. These are clothes. I guess the magical… or I don’t know if it’s magical or not, but the intention behind these clothes is to free them, so that would change. But I would tend to think Dumbledore would be the only person who could give a sock to an elf and have it mean anything.

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: And also, he would have to personally deliver it. I mean, Chamber of Secrets is a perfect example. Harry tricks Lucius Malfoy into freeing Dobby by placing… what was it, a sock? In the diary, and then he sort of thrusts it at Dobby. So he is literally giving Dobby clothes at that point, but leaving clothes around for an elf to pick up is not the same thing, and I’m actually kind of surprised that Hermione thought this would work.

Megan: I was going to say, because they have the elves later insulted by it, where Hermione would just put out clothes and put garbage on top, and then she thinks… I don’t know, kind of playing off their… I don’t know, stupidity? If she thinks trying to trick them into picking it up, but they see it right away and they’re too smart for that, so they’re kind of insulted by it.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: That’s a really good point because she doesn’t… even though her heart, we agree, is in the right place, she’s not respecting their intelligence enough to really come up with a better solution.

Laura: How about the fact that literally every service that’s provided to you at the school is from slave labor? So maybe you boycott eating in the Great Hall.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Maybe you do your own damn laundry.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I don’t see Hermione refusing to take advantage of the slave labor. She’s just complaining about it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I can see Hermione going on a hunger strike and also leading teams of people down to the lake and showing them, educating them, how to hand wash your laundry.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: She comes from a Muggle family; I’m sure that at one point she’s cleaned clothing in a sink or something, so she could really be much more effective than she is. I think this is a moment of very economical character development from the point of J.K. Rowling to have her do this, but it raises, I think, a lot of questions, and chief among them being, don’t the house-elves serve at the pleasure of the headmaster? Wouldn’t he have to free them? Without having a conversation with Dumbledore, she can’t hope to actually attain her goal.

Andrew: I just chalk this up to a kid being a kid. This is something Hermione would look back at later and just go, “What was I thinking?” And now that she’s the Minister for Magic, maybe she could make a difference in Hogwarts in terms of the house-elves being there.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: I was going to say also, I think to Hermione’s credit, she is fighting an uphill battle here. Nobody takes SPEW seriously. I mean, even Harry and Ron, who I would say are good, relatively moral people, have treated it like, “Oh, this is Hermione’s little cause; we don’t really indulge her on it all that much,” and it comes across kind of crazy in the context of this world where house-elf slave labor is just normal.

Eric: Here’s the comparison I’ll draw: veganism and meat-eating. We needed something. We needed an alternative that was easy, like the Impossible Burger. Now you can go to Burger King and get the Impossible Burger.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Before that, you might have hated animal cruelty, you might have hated the beef industry and what it’s doing for carbon emissions and all this other stuff, but it’s like, “Oh, become vegan, or start eating more plant-based food, and get rid of meat? Cut out meat? How am I going to do that? How on earth would I even begin?”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, things had to exist. The method had to be put in place first. People need to be given the alternatives, shown the alternate method, and it needs to be, unfortunately, as easy as possible for them to switch in order for them to stop. And Hermione needs to… I mean, I guess in order for it to work easier, should have shown people the alternative to using the elf labor at Hogwarts.

Andrew: That’s a great point.

Laura: Which should be easy. The alternative is magic.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah!

Laura: We’ve seen that Mrs. Weasley uses magic to cook. You can use magic to cook. You can use magic to wash your clothing. I mean, if people were able to vanish their poo away…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … you can’t tell me that you couldn’t just magic your clothes clean without having to physically wash them.

Andrew: So that’s what Hermione should have done, an after hours class where she teaches people how to clean their own clothes, how to make their own food, and do everything else that the house-elves currently do.

Eric: And if you don’t want to politicize it, you don’t need to say, “This is to free the elf labor” and all this stuff, but it’s making people independent for the future, when odds are, as soon as they leave Hogwarts, they’re not going to have elf labor doing all these things for them.

Andrew: That’s a good point, too. Yeah, like, “You’d better get ready for the real world.”

Eric: So I think we’ve solved it, you guys. I think we’ve… [laughs]

Andrew: We did, absolutely.

Eric: So we actually have a really good Care of Magical Creatures class, and I’ve just got to say: I know that Harry is sad about Hagrid, but it’s really refreshing in this chapter to get a class that seems perfectly conceived, well-executed, and bottomline, interesting, right? With no catch. We learn about Bowtruckles.

Andrew: Fascinating, and it feels like an Easter egg in hindsight because Bowtruckles take center stage in Fantastic Beasts.

Eric: [laughs] They do, yeah. And we learn that they’re tree guardians, that they live mostly around wand trees, particularly the trees with which Ollivander finds wandwoods. And he has to be a pretty skilled wizard, we learn, because Bowtruckles have really razor-sharp pointy bits, and also get very defensive of defending their home, so it’s kind of… it made me really appreciate Ollivander, learning more about Bowtruckles.

Andrew: Yeah. And Megan, you found some pretty interesting information about Bowtruckles, right?

Megan: Yeah, I think in the book it says they eat woodlice and then fairy eggs, and this stood out to me because I realized I didn’t know much about fairies in the Harry Potter universe, so I did a little research. They’re mentioned a few times in Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire for decorations, particularly at the Yule Ball; when Hagrid and Madame Maxime were having their conversation, she gets up and swarms of fairies rise up around her. And then in the Fantastic Beasts book, it says they can lay up to 50 eggs at a time on the underside of leaves in those wand trees, and that there are two types: They’re either conjured by wizards for decoration, like we’ve seen, or found in woodlands.

Andrew: Interesting. I wonder if all these little pieces of Fantastic Beasts were a signal that J.K. Rowling was really interested in creating a whole other story this early on, even while writing Order of the Phoenix. Because I think about Bowtruckles, I think about these Newt references in the previous chapter…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s like J.K. Rowling was itching to go this direction. And she did say it later on that like, “If I was going to write another story, this was going to be the one, because I do feel most passionate about it.” So we do see some hints of it here.

Eric: Yeah, and Grubbly-Plank has a good humor about it. She’s teaching the class. She says, “If angered they will gouge out human eyes with their fingers, which, as you can see, are very sharp and not at all desirable near the eyeballs.” She’s a great teacher, you guys. She’s humorous. She’s informative. And the lesson is to take a Bowtruckle – carefully – and just draw, after close enough inspection… look at it long enough that you can draw a sketch and label or identify the body parts. She’s doing this with live beasts; it’s not like they had to dissect a toad and do this or anything like that. And in fact, Harry loses his; it goes off into the woods. [laughs] But I think that it’s just a really good class and evidence that whatever hole Grubbly-Plank lives in when Hagrid is the teacher, she should be full-time all the time.

Andrew: And was that J.K. Rowling’s goal, to make her an attractive teacher so we as a reader don’t really miss Hagrid too much? [laughs] Or maybe the students.

Laura: I think it’s intended to generate internal conflict, because you’re very much like Harry in this instance, where you’re like, “Oh, I love Hagrid, and I care about Hagrid. Oh, but she’s actually a better teacher.”

Andrew: [laughs] Right, right. Also, I will just say I think she has the worst name out of any Harry Potter character in the series. “Grubbly-Plank.” Like, J.K. Rowling was thinking of a name for this teacher; she’s like, “Okay, Professor Grubbly. I don’t know; that’s not dumb enough. I need to add a second name to this professor’s last name. I know – Plank.”

Laura: It just makes me think of a moldy piece of wood.

Andrew: I just think of a pirate walking on a plank out to their death.

Laura: [laughs] Well, speaking of Bowtruckles, rereading this was really interesting to me because I feel like I had forgotten that they can actually inflict real physical harm, because in Fantastic Beasts, they’re kind of cute, you know? And I don’t know; I just wonder if we’re going to see more of the dark side of Bowtruckles moving forward.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Fantastic Beasts and the Dark Side of the Bowtruckle, coming November 2022.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We’re going to get an evil Bowtruckle, like evil C-3PO.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just a black Bowtruckle, maybe a little bigger. Yeah, Newt carries this thing in his pocket where the Bowtruckle could easily access his eyeballs…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … so that does sound pretty dangerous.

Eric: Newt is a badass.

Andrew: He must have a really good relationship with the Bowtruckle, because I wouldn’t want to risk that.

Eric: Well, wasn’t it that Pickett was picked on by the other Bowtruckles? He’s like the Rudolph of the Bowtruckles?

Andrew: Ohh.

Megan: Aren’t his hands like leaves, so they don’t have the sharp twigs?

Eric: He’s been maybe neutered.

Laura: [laughs] Oh my God.

Andrew: They’ll never make the Bowtruckle evil because it is a product they could sell in the flagship Harry Potter store, and if it’s evil, nobody will buy it.

Eric: Wait, wait, wait. You’re wrong, because Death Eater stuff sells all the time like hotcakes.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. So the Bowtruckles start appealing to the dark Harry Potter fans who…

Eric: But I like that Pickett has leaves for hands, because he’s a man of peace and not a man of war.

Andrew: Hey, man. Peace and love, peace and love.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Also, from the description in the book, I envision the Bowtruckles to be larger than how Pickett is depicted in the films, so maybe he’s like the runt of the litter.

Andrew: Maybe, yeah. I suppose they had to make Pickett small enough to fit into Newt’s pocket, so that could be a factor. Because it is cute seeing…

Eric: Well, I always imagine… walking sticks, aren’t they called? The bugs that you literally think they’re part of a leaf or part of a tree?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I think about those a lot. But Harry does openly ask, “What’s with Hagrid?” And Grubbly-Plank, I think, directly answers that “It’s none of…” I forget exactly what happens, but Malfoy overhears, of course. And actually, this is a very weird, unexpected moment for Draco to come and make fun of Harry, but he really lays on thickly that Hagrid is up to something big…

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: … and also might have been injured. We know that this is true, both of those things. How does Malfoy know?

Andrew: I think you have an idea, Megan.

Megan: Yeah, I just looked ahead at later in the book when Hagrid is telling this story. There was the old Gurg that got thrown out, and the new Gurg had told the Death Eaters about Hagrid and Madame Maxime, so he knew that Macnair, one of the Death Eaters, was looking around the mountains for them, so that probably got back to the Malfoys at some point.

Andrew: Yeah, and it must really suck for Harry to know that Malfoy knows more than he does. Malfoy is more in the know thanks to his father, while Harry’s father, so to speak – Dumbledore – is not talking to him or giving him any info at all.

Eric: Yeah, it’s an opportunity for Harry to feel pretty left out, which… there’s kind of a tonic to that, which is this resilience of his friends to really come together. And I’ve written… what happens next? I think Luna Lovegood is Harry’s best friend right now, definitely his fiercest ally. They’re going to Herbology, and Luna comes out the door, sees him, goes right up to him, and says, “I believe you,” and says that “I believe this happened, and I believe in you.” And he doesn’t know what to expect; he’s too busy thinking, “Oh, I’d rather have sane people believing me and say this,” but that was a hell of a thing, can we just acknowledge, for Luna to do.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. I mean, think about when you’re low in life and maybe you don’t want to talk about the things that are going on, and a good friend of yours – or an acquaintance, like Luna would be at this stage – just comes up to you and says, “I believe you.”

Eric: But even Hermione throws shade on Luna, and she again mentions the Quibbler, and she says that Harry can do much better than Luna. And I’m thinking, “Girl, are you reading the same book we’re reading?” Because we’re talking about the Daily Prophet smearing Harry, and here’s the Quibbler, an alternative that isn’t government-run, and you’re going to trash it because, what, it’s not, I don’t know, popular? Or it’s not official? Or it’s not…? Her problem… I think that we found an area of hypocrisy for Hermione here in the way that she initially treats Luna.

Laura: Yeah, agreed. She’s not seeing the value in allyship, right? Allyship does not mean that you necessarily believe all the same things as the person that you’re attempting to ally with, but it shows that you believe their experience, and it normalizes that belief. And the fact that Luna is… she doesn’t care what people think she is, and she very much uses her own head, which is something the vast majority of the student body is not doing right now. So I agree, Hermione is definitely overlooking the importance of Harry having an ally so strong that they would, in front of the whole student body, loudly proclaim, “I believe you.” And then that opens the door for Ernie Macmillan to come up and do the same thing.

Eric: Yep. I mean, it’s a snowball effect, and it’s a really lovely thing. Luna just did the right thing. This is what you need to hear, and Harry is a little not smart enough to realize it, but he needed to hear this. And then also in this chapter, Angelina Johnson is kind of a jerk to Harry, so he really needs as many friends as he can get. Angelina is holding Quidditch tryouts. This is obviously something that Harry would innately want to be a part of, but he can’t because of detention, and he is a little hesitant to tell her. And really, this is the point where we get to the namesake part of the chapter, “Detention with Dolores.” I guess I’m trying to read back, or trying to remember when I was 15 and reading this book for the first time, what I expected out of detention.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, what’s pivotal here is that before this chapter, you just see Umbridge as an annoying teacher who’s mean. It’s another Snape. But then once you see what she does to Harry in this chapter, she goes from that to just pure evil. To force a student to cut themselves again and again over a period of four days and not stop until he is bleeding to her satisfaction, that is pure evil. So the first time we read this, I think you’re just seeing her as another Snape, and then once you get through that, you’re like, “Wow. Yep, she goes beyond Snape. She is a horrible human being.” And this is just the beginning.

Eric: I think that’s a good point. I think that this chapter very quickly sets her apart from even Snape. Yeah, yeah, I think you’re exactly right on that. But I have to laugh, because Harry is woefully unprepared to handle this situation. He does the best he can in terms of bearing the pain; he says he won’t give her the satisfaction of seeing him openly wince, really. But he does go to the first detention and say, “Hey, can I have off Friday?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And I’m thinking this is clearly… there’s no universe in which this would have worked.

Andrew: No, and probably not for any teacher, because as Umbridge brings up, the point of detention is to take you away from things you would be doing otherwise, especially something that might be really meaningful to you. And it’s to teach you a lesson that if you didn’t screw up, you could have been at that Quidditch tryout, but you’re not because you messed up, so don’t mess up again.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s interesting that it just ends up that Harry can see the pitch from the window, and he’s able to pretty much figure out most… he’s able to basically catch tryouts anyway, which is a weird choice, but kind of fortunate. But really, on that line, I don’t think Umbridge is wrong. It’s just on the actual detention process.

Andrew: So what do we make of this actually happening at Hogwarts? Umbridge torturing a student like this? And I really have to give it to Harry to not even wince during this, because I would. I’d be screaming.

Eric: I question how the quill was first conceived, why it exists. This is not something that Umbridge made. It’s something she procured, surely, but why would something like this even exist? Is this one of those medieval torture methods that Filch keeps wanting to bring out?

Andrew: This does sound medieval.

Laura: Yeah, I think also, as I was reading this, I was like, “Does Dumbledore really not know that this is happening?” I just… we always hear that Dumbledore knows what’s going on in the school.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So I’m like, “Do you know?” And just… are you doing the whole “For the greater good” thing, and just being like, “Well, sorry, Harry; just gotta live with it”?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Is this for the greater good? Could one argue that?

Eric: If he draws the line at Trelawney not being able to be physically removed from the school, why is he allowing his students to be mutilated? Especially Harry.

Megan: I feel like he would know. Does he ever find out about this later? I can’t remember.

Andrew: I don’t think so.

Megan: And I don’t think it’s like in the movie where everyone does it; everyone gets detention like this. I think it’s just Harry.

Andrew: Yeah. If I were Harry, I definitely would tell Dumbledore and Umbridge at some point… well, obviously Harry runs out of time with Dumbledore by the end of the next book, but maybe tell McGonagall at some point, like, “Hey, this was happening at Hogwarts. Can you make sure this never happens at the school again, please?”

Eric: Harry just… it’s so interesting how internally Harry takes this task. He sees it as Umbridge in a… it’s a personal attack on him. The line he has to write is, “I must not tell lies. I must not.” And it’s a personal confrontation between him and Umbridge over the sanctity of the truth, of telling the truth. And I think that he really just internal… he makes it a personal war. And he knows that if he goes to his Head of House, or goes to Dumbledore, or goes to Madam Pomfrey, that they might take the appropriate actions and stop her from doing this, but he doesn’t want to give what he sees as the satisfaction to Umbridge of having to be rebuked. He’s like, “I will bear this. Do your worst.” And I think that’s so heroic of Harry, despite we really feel bad for him.

Andrew: Yeah. Another sad thing about this is something that I brought up at the end of last week’s episode: Those scars stick with Harry for the rest of his life. You still see them on his hands in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, and when you’re watching it from far back in the theater, you probably won’t even notice. But if you look at publicity photos of the actual show, you see the scars on his hands. And I guess they made a point to include those, because it speaks to the darkness that is still within Harry. You don’t see those in the movie after Movie 5, right?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I mean, that stuff is gone, so they must have put those on just to, like I said, make a point about things still disturbing Harry even in his later years.

Laura: It does make me wonder has Hogwarts protocol changed at all since the trio went? Are they confident when they send their kids to school? Like, “Yeah, this is going to be fine.”

Andrew: Right, you would be uncomfortable, wouldn’t you? Well, I guess knowing that McGonagall is running the show might assure them.

Megan: It’s no longer a security nightmare.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Right. It’s all over. Dumbledore is out. Good times to be had at Hogwarts now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I don’t know. I would, Laura, send my kid there and keep a close eye on things that are happening. I would maybe write to them and be like, “Hey, is everything okay? How are things going? Are the staircases still moving? Are the house-elves still there? Is McGonagall actually monitoring everything that’s going on? Are you aware of any Dark magic or Dark items?”

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I also feel like culturally in the wizarding world, there’s just this sort of tacit acceptance that this is just the way things are.

Andrew: [laughs] Just deal with it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s just normal.

Andrew: Welcome to Hogwarts. Things will always be messed up.

Eric: I mean, it eventually gets worse, with Alecto and Amicus performing spells on the kids, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: I think anything from there is… it can only go up.

Andrew: Yeah, that was definitely rock bottom. No, but I would actually argue that after the events of Deathly Hallows, things got a lot better at the school. I bet they’ve made a lot of changes. You think about, like I said, McGonagall running the show; then you have Hermione as the Minister for Magic. I think they would both work together to create a safer environment at Hogwarts. I say this, and now people are going to bring up stuff in the Cursed Child that happened that are probably security nightmares.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, most of that happened in Harry’s fourth year, so it doesn’t count.

Andrew: True, true.

Eric: So we all agree Umbridge sucks. She will continue to suck. I don’t think anything she does is more horrendous than this, though.

Andrew: No, I think you’re right.

Eric: I think that this is not only the first most shocking thing that she does, but it allows… and it had to be shocking, right? It had to get all the readers on the side of, “Oh, this is an awful person,” so that we can relish her fall from grace and power. It’s a long time coming; it’s another seven or eight months before she’s gone. But it’s just unfortunate because this is actually very horrifying.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Eric: Yeah, but we find out the results of Quidditch, and Angelina made Ronald Weasley a Keeper. He’s a Keeper, everybody.

Andrew: He is a Keeper.

Eric: The great thing – and I appreciate Angelina’s bluntness – She says to Harry, “I know he’s your best mate, but he’s not fabulous. I think with a bit of training, he’ll be all right. He comes from a family of good Quidditch players. I’m banking on him turning out to have a bit more talent than he showed today.” This is good advice, and I think that she doesn’t specifically boil it down to nerves. We know Ron suffers from nerves and has that as a real problem, but I tended to forget that I think even Bill and Charlie were on the Quidditch team. At least one of them was a Beater; might have been Charlie, but now it’s Fred and George, obviously. And that’s a good reminder for me. “Oh yeah, Ron comes from a successful Quidditch family.” And we know Ginny eventually takes it professional.

Andrew: Right. The things she said about Ron are worth discussing, because he was not her favorite pick.

Eric: True.

Andrew: This kind of sucks, and I’m sure Ron isn’t aware of this, right? That he was… [laughs]

Eric: Right, yeah.

Andrew: Look, this happens, and I mean, how are people who suck supposed to get ahead in the world if they don’t occasionally run into opportunities like this?

Eric: Yeah, I don’t blame Angelina for this thought process. She’s letting Harry into it because she obviously trusts him. But ultimately, this choice… particularly Vicky, that she’s involved in all sorts of societies, and if training clashes, is going to choose those over Quidditch… you need somebody… as a captain, you really want to put – and this is just anybody as a hiring manager for a position – you want a candidate that’s going to put this position first, that cares about it. And I think with Ron, you at least have Fred and George, his brothers there to keep him in check for any bad temper moments, so it does make a lot of sense. I could just appreciate that. I mean, yeah, it sucks for Ron being third best, and if he knew that, he would never play, like you said. [laughs] But I think it really is smart decision-making on the part of Angelina here. He’s just got a golden opportunity to prove his worth. This is all that he ever wanted. It was in his Mirror of Erised, wasn’t it? Being a Quidditch captain or something? Being good at Quidditch?

Laura: And he proves himself later.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Good times. I believe that concludes our discussion of this chapter.

Andrew: Okay. So the Umbridge Suck count currently stands at 16, but we’re going to add four to the board today. Eric, do you want to go through them?

Eric: Yep, number one: being so cheerful about inflicting pain and devising this lesson plan in the first place. She is all smiles when Harry comes in, and that speaks to her sadistic nature. That’s really sick. So for coming up to this… also, when he first finds out what the quill does, she dictates that it’s going to last – each of these lessons is going to last – until it “sinks in” and until the words on his hand bleed more easily.

Andrew: Awful.

Eric: That, I felt…

Andrew: That’s worth two points. Put that too.

Eric: Yep, I agree. So relishing her… yeah, add two? Okay.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But this is kind of the same point, just relishing that it causes him pain. Her sadism… is that an extra one? Not an extra one? Who knows. But then I also added being inflexible with the detentions. So we know she has a point, but she really isn’t willing to meet Harry halfway here. She’s not even willing to meet him at all. She is the authoritarian. She’s laying down her duty, her authority, and so I thought that deserved a special suck as well.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: So I’d say add four, still.

Andrew: That special suck. I love a special suck.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right, so let’s add five. So that’s one…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Two…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Three…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Four…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Five.

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: I should just do that while you read each one, but I feel like it’s disruptive, so I don’t. Okay, so the new total is 21.


Connecting the Threads


Andrew: Laura, I’m sorry; I apologize. I kind of stole your thunder at the beginning of this Chapter by Chapter by doing my own connecting the threads, but what other threads did you find?

Laura: Oh, yeah, no problem at all. I love that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I felt like you at the beginning of the chapter. I even dyed my hair purple so I could have… I could really be you.

Laura: Ooh. You’re going to have to go pink, because that’s what I’m doing next.

Andrew: Oh, man, I can’t keep up.

Laura: So one of the first threads that I connected between Chapter 13 of Order of the Phoenix and Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban is this idea of mistaking the villain. So in Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban, Ron wakes up to see Sirius Black standing over him with a knife. Ron, of course, believes that Sirius was going to hurt him – or looking for Harry, rather – but what he’s actually looking for is Scabbers, a.k.a. Peter Pettigrew. Then in Chapter 13 of Order of the Phoenix, Harry feels a searing pain in his scar when Umbridge touches him, and he tells Hermione that he assumes that she might be being controlled by Voldemort, similar to how Quirrell was controlled by him in Book 1. And ultimately here we know that Umbridge is a villain, but she’s not the villain, if that makes sense. Then we also have some Draco manipulation and distraction tactics happening in Chapter 13 of both of these books. So like I mentioned earlier, in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13, Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle dress up as Dementors and enter the Quidditch pitch to throw Harry off his game. Really here they’re just trying to appeal to his fear and anxiety of Dementors. And then in this chapter, as we talked about earlier, Draco alludes to this idea of knowing that something bad has happened to Hagrid, again appealing to Harry’s anxieties here, and in this case, Harry’s ignorance about where Hagrid is, and it’s all in an attempt to make Harry feel uncomfortable in his own skin, especially in places where he should be comfortable, like the Quidditch pitch, like the Care of Magical Creatures class. Then we have this theme of Ravenclaw allies. So even though Harry and Cho are Quidditch rivals in Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban, playing against each other both as Seekers, she actually alerts Harry to the “Dementors” on the pitch, even though they’re currently playing against each other. Harry ultimately still wins the match as a result of this. And then in this chapter, as we talked about earlier, Luna announces for all to hear that she believes Harry, without regard for how she might be perceived for that.

Andrew: Interesting. Thinking back to that moment in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13, when Sirius was holding a knife over Ron, maybe not the best way to approach a child.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, but he’s been in Azkaban for 12 years. He’s stunted.

Andrew: Right, he doesn’t know how to present himself around other human beings, I guess. [laughs]

Laura: Right. Also, what was he going to do? Show up and be like, “Hey guys, I’m Sirius Black…”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “Please don’t be alarmed. I’m just here to kill your rat.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Makes perfect sense, dude. Go for it.

Megan: I actually had one more for Prisoner of Azkaban: Just in Chapter 12, Harry is starting his nighttime lessons with Lupin, where he learns to protect himself from Dementors, and that’s very different from his nighttime detentions with another DADA professor, Umbridge, where she’s actively harming him.

Laura: Oooh. Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s a direct contrast.

Andrew: Yeah. Megan had to get a reference to her favorite character in here. I think that’s what that was about.

[Everyone laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time for MVP of the Week. I’m going to give it to Angelina for giving Ron this opportunity that he really wanted. It was the feel good moment of the chapter.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Ron for showing the value of reliability.

Eric: Is that a joke?

Laura: No.

Eric: Because he doesn’t stand up for Hermione at all when she’s attacking Fred and George. [laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean reliability when it comes to Quidditch. No, because it is true that I would rather… if I’m choosing somebody to work with, and I have an A student and a B student, but the A student is totally flaky and isn’t going to follow through and isn’t going to show up, but the B student will, I’d go with the B student, because reliability and dependability are important…

Andrew: So important.

Laura: … and they can take you a long way.

Andrew: Yeah, just having those two aspects could probably get you anywhere you need to be in life, to be honest with you. That just got too real for me for a moment.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Eric, how about you? [laughs]

Eric: I gave mine to the house-elves for sticking it out. Hermione is presenting them with a real challenge. They also didn’t… they could go to Dumbledore and say, “This crazy girl keeps trying to free us.” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point, too.

Eric: “We don’t want this! Stop doing this!”

Andrew: I would just love to see the sit-down between Dumbledore and Hermione. If that happened, Dumbledore would have to approach Hermione, and I guess I can’t see him doing it. Maybe he would pass the task on to McGonagall, but that would be an entertaining conversation. “Hermione, please stop.”

Eric: Right?

Laura: I don’t think they would, though, because it is wrong, this whole culture of enslaving house-elves. It’s just morally bankrupt. But it’s one of those things that I think most people, if they stopped and thought about it for 30 seconds, they’d be like, “Yeah, that’s kind of screwed up, but it’s just the way we’ve always done things, so…” and then they just go on with their day. So I think, as we mentioned earlier, Hermione’s heart is in the right place here. I think that she’s absolutely right that the wizarding world can’t be built on the back of elvish slave – or not elvish, excuse me – house-elvish slave labor. But she’s young, and she doesn’t totally have her bearings on what the most impactful and effective method for changing that is yet.

Andrew: Yeah. And finally, Megan, your MVP?

Megan: My MVP was Luna for saying outright what she believed and what she thinks is right, and she doesn’t care what other people think of her.

Andrew: Harry really needed it in that moment.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “The Second Scar.”

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Lawful Evil.”

Andrew: You think this is lawful, huh?

Eric: Technically within the law.

Laura: Yeah, also it’s a nerd reference.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: It’s fine.

Eric: You’re talking about the alignments for D&D.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: What is this nerdy…?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Andrew, you’ve never played D&D?

Andrew: Dungeons and Dragons? No, I have not. I have not.

Eric: Okay. All right.

Andrew: Respect, though. I respect that.

Eric: Okay. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Torture with Dolores.”

Andrew: It’s a more accurate title, for sure.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Little straightforward there.

Megan: Mine was kind of similar: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Torture with the Toad.”

Andrew: Ah, alliteration.

Laura: Ooh, you’ve got that alliteration going.

Eric: That’s even better.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, we would love to hear from you. Email MuggleCast@gmail.com or go to MuggleCast.com and use the contact form. You can also send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or call us: 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Admittedly, we haven’t been including feedback much, but please send it in and we will try to get some of it on air.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for some Quizzitch.

Eric: Yes, last week’s question was: What has Hermione been making over the summer? And we learn in this chapter that the answer is hats for the house-elves. She’s been knitting them all year. Correct answers were submitted to us by Count Ravioli, Beth McGaughey, Incessant Bookworm, The Cat’s Pajamas, Euan the Quizzitch Player, Marie, and Tara. Congrats to all who contributed to that. Of course, we enter on Twitter at MuggleCast, hashtag Quizzitch, and next week’s question is: What does Cho refer to Ron as to Harry? And it’s a funny kind of succinct way of putting things.

Andrew: All right. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening. Megan, thanks for joining us today. It was great having you on.

Megan: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun.

Andrew: If you would like to join our community today, head over to Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You will get instant access to lots of benefits, including installments of bonus MuggleCast; you will be able to see our planning docs so you can see what is coming up on next week’s episode; you will also be able to hop into our recording studio, because we livestream every episode as we are recording it, and we typically do that on Saturday or Sunday mornings. You will also get access to that new benefit; it’s so new, it’s not even on Patreon as I speak. We should really get that added. When you pledge, one of us will record a video “Thank you” to you, and we’re planning on having a lot of fun with that. I’m really excited to get started. So thank you for your support; it goes a long way, it means a lot to us, and it keeps the show running. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Megan: And I’m Megan.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Eric: Bye.

Transcript #448

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #448, Have a Biscuit (OOTP 12, Professor Umbridge)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world, our first episode of 2020! I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we are joined by one of our friends, somebody who’s been in the fandom for a really long time, who has his own Harry Potter fansite, Andy McCray! Hi, Andy.

Andy McCray: Hi, Andrew. Hi, folks. Thanks for having me on.

Andrew: You are down in Australia. We’ve known you for such a long time; we were just talking before the show. We first met in 2005 in person, but that was also the last time. [laughs]

Andy: That is. It was a fly in/fly out visit.

Andrew: Yeah, and then a couple weeks ago on an episode, Eric is reading the Quizzitch answers, and he was like, “Oh, and Andy from Harry Potter Fan Zone,” and we’re like, “Oh, cool! Andy is listening to the show still! That’s awesome.”

[Andy laughs]

Andrew: And then Micah was…

Andy: I’ve been listening the whole time. I love hearing you guys.

Andrew: Oh, good. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. I think we knew that, and then we just… I don’t know; it slipped our minds. But anyway, you’re here now. It’s great to have you on. You have…

Andy: It’s a pleasure to be here.

Andrew: When did you launch Harry Potter Fan Zone?

Andy: So Harry Potter Fan Zone launched in December of 2003 and it was kind of just a school side project, and then I just got so in love with the Harry Potter fandom and the whole website community, and I’ve been doing it ever since.

Andrew: Yeah, very cool. And one of the shining moments in your site’s history, I’m sure, is when J.K. Rowling gave you her fansite award.

Andy: It was totally surreal. I remember waking up and there was an email, and it said, “Check your inbox in a couple of hours; you’re going to get a really nice surprise.” And then I read that I got the fansite award, and then I had to go off to school and sit in exams.

Andrew: [laughs] Be a normal kid.

Andy: I could not concentrate all day.

[Andy and Eric laugh]

Andy: It was like, “Do you people know what’s happening?”

Andrew: Yeah, right. [laughs] “J.K. Rowling recognized my website!” Back in the day on J.K. Rowling’s awesome, original website, every… I don’t know; what was it, month? Two months or so? She would give out a fansite award for a time. What did that entail? Did she send you something physical? Was it a key or… did she give you anything?

Andy: Oh, I wish so. No, it was a little graphic, and then it was some lovely words that she said. She’d said that the site was really insightful, which is something I wish I could get tattooed on my forehead.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andy: I still have the graphic to this day, and it’s still pride of place on the masthead.

Andrew: That is so cool. She was like, “This is THE Australian Harry Potter fansite,” right?

Andy: She did. And one of the things she said in the message was, “I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to award you this; I had to finish Book 7 first.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andy: Like, “Please, it’s no problem at all!”

Andrew: That’s so cool.

Andy: “Please finish the book; don’t let me hold you up.”

Laura: Priorities.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. Was your website traffic just insane after she did that? Do you remember?

Andy: It was, and I think the server crashed the next day, and then it was just sort of like, “Oh, what am I doing here? This is ridiculous.”

Andrew: That’s a good problem to have.

Andy: But I wouldn’t have passed it up for the world. It was incredible.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I remember those days of servers crashing.

Andy: It’s because MuggleNet would link something, and it’d be like, “Oh, check out the rest of the gallery at Harry Potter Fan Zone,” and I’d be like, “Oh, we’re in for a…”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Thanks but no thanks for all that traffic.” Good stuff. Well, it’s great to have you on, and on today’s episode, we are going to discuss Chapter 12 of Order of the Phoenix, “Professor Umbridge.” So our Umbridge Suck count is going to skyrocket this week, I think. Did anybody get any fun gifts over the holidays? I’m curious because we did our holiday gift guide.

Laura: I got so much Harry Potter stuff for Christmas and my birthday this year, y’all. I got the first three illustrated editions, which I did not have.

Andrew: Aw, yay!

Andy: Awesome.

Laura: I got a 12-pack of Harry Potter-themed socks.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: This is kind of a sidebar, because I ran out of socks this year, and my boyfriend went to both of our families and was like, “She needs socks.” So his mom got me socks, and my mom got me socks, so I have a lot of socks now. Half of them are Harry Potter socks. I also got the Lego Knight Bus, so I’m going to be…

Andrew: Oooh.

Andy: Ooh, so did I, Laura.

Laura: Yeah, I’m going to be building that and adding that to my collection. I got… oh my gosh, what else did I get?

Micah: Laura, just quickly, you do know we’re sponsored by Bombas, right? We could have maybe worked something out for you.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: But yeah, that’s just the beginning of it. Pretty much everything was Harry Potter-themed, and I was okay with it.

Andrew: That’s awesome.

Laura: Felt kind of awkward after the latest J.K. Rowling drama, but yeah. [laughs]

Eric: I’ve got to say, my big thing… we did our MuggleCast Secret Santa gift exchange over on the MuggleCast Patrons Facebook group, and I got a really cool piece of art – I dropped it in the show document – from Hannah Howard, my Secret Santa, and she draws people as Famous Witches and Wizards Cards.

Andrew: Ooh!

Eric: So I am really, really happy with it. And she sent a new Gryffindor tie and a new puzzle from New York Puzzle Company. It’s really good when we mention the gifts that we ourselves would love on this show…

Andrew: [laughs] Right, makes it easier.

Eric: … because it really pays untold dividends for us. So I’m really happy with my Harry Potter haul.

Micah: Which puzzle was it, Eric?

Eric: It was the Diagon Alley… Hagrid taking Harry through Diagon Alley, 500 piece puzzle.

Andrew: Oh, that one’s cool.

Micah: I completed that one as well over the holidays.

Eric: Oh, really?

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: I did three puzzles, so clearly I had a lot of time on my hands.

Eric: Oh my God!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: You were hooked. That’s fantastic.

Micah: Yeah, I basically funded the New York Puzzle Company over the last month.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So have our listeners. There’s been so much puzzle love; it’s unbelievable. I think we’re single-handedly bringing puzzles back.

Eric: [laughs] It’s a new show tagline for 2020.

Andy: Micah, on your recommendation, I got the Mary Grand-Pré Harry Potter socks that all seven books.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Andy: And they are wonderful.

Andrew: I recommended on our holiday gift guide episode the Harry Potter spirit jerseys from BoxLunch, and I did ask Santa for that, and I received my Slytherin one, and I’m really happy with it. It looks great, it fits great, and on the inside of the collar, it has the Slytherin traits, which I thought was a really nice touch.

Laura: That’s neat!

Andrew: Yeah, so “Cunning” and whatever the other ones are. “Sexy.” “Podcast superstar.” All those things. Fits me perfectly.

Micah: Are those really Slytherin traits or just things you’d like to aspire to?

Andrew: Aspire to? I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Eric: He’s already there, Micah.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I also participated in the Secret Santa with our patrons, and thanks to Nicole, I received two beer mugs that have the MuggleCast logo on them.

Andrew: Perfect.

Micah: And Eric, I know you provided a helping hand here, but these are really cool. I think I posted them up at least on my social media, but we can post them on the MuggleCast Twitter or Instagram. They are really cool; a lot of thought went into those, and I can tell you that they’ve been used. Not going to tell you how many times they’ve been used so far, but they’ve definitely been used.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And a really great and thoughtful gift. She also sent through a deck of Harry Potter playing cards, so I’ll have to put those to good use as well.

Eric: Shout-out real quick to Brittney for once again running the Secret Santa. It’s a thankless job. Over 100 people participated this year; it was really cool.

Andrew: Very nice. Little announcement before we get to Chapter by Chapter: With the new year, we are going to be moving MuggleCast’s releases to Tuesdays. The reason for this is so we have a little more time to get our ducks in a row and get the episode out to you reliably first thing Tuesday morning, so you’ll know when you wake up – at least in America…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … there will be a new episode of MuggleCast waiting for you for your commute or whatever else you’ve got going on that day. So after this episode, I believe – we’ll probably release this one on Monday because everybody is eager for it after us being away for a couple weeks – but henceforth, MuggleCast will be released on Tuesdays. It’s a little sad because we can no longer say MuggleCast Mondays; there’s nice alliteration there. But we just need a little more time.

Laura: It can be Trelawney Tuesdays.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Are we calling ourselves Trelawney now? TrelawneyCast?

Laura: TrelawneyCast.

Andrew: Sure. Also a name change.

Laura: [laughs] New year, new us.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: MuggleCast Tuesday. I mean, obviously MuggleCast ends with a T and Tuesday starts with a T.

Eric: Oh, MuggleCastTuesday.

Andrew: It’s all one word now.

Laura: Oh. Yeah.

Andrew: Perfect.

Laura: I love it.

Andrew: [laughs] Crisis averted.

Laura: Wonderful. Well, speaking of “New year, new you,” today’s sponsor is definitely a good way to get your new year started.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Sounds good. Micah, I was just thinking maybe we should do Micah Mondays, where you dance on social media or something. What do you think of that?

Micah: No.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, that makes it simple.

Eric: You had so much fun with the takeover for the giveaway. It could be a natural fit.

Andrew: Right, yeah. More of that to entertain the people while they wait for the new episode.

Micah: I’ll do another giveaway if that’s what you want.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I guess I’m so fortunate…

Andrew: Every Monday? No, not with how you spend. No, no, no.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Tripling the expectations.

Micah: Oh, come on. We made people’s holidays.

Andrew: I know. I’m completely kidding.

Eric: We’re still getting “Thank you”s from people.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. This week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Professor Umbridge,” and we will start with our seven-word summary. And Andy, you can kick it off.

Andy: Okay. Classes…

Eric: … begin…

Andrew: … for…

Micah: … the…

Laura: Ooh, I feel like I have total control over the direction with this right now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You do. It’s in the palm of your hand.

Laura: I don’t like it. Classes begin for the… term? Good luck, guys. [laughs]

Andy: … despite…

Eric: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Andrew: Come on, Eric. You got this.

Eric: … attitudes.

Andrew: [laughs] “Despite attitudes.” I was thinking “despite terror”!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … afoot.

Laura: I was thinking “despite suckage.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Yeah, because definitely the classes don’t go well, do they? But I think Harry’s attitude should be front and center, hence putting it in.

Laura: Yeah, he does have one this chapter for sure.

Eric: Yeah!

Laura: This book, really, but…

Micah: Well, hopefully our discussion is going to be better than our seven-word summary.

[Andrew laughs]

Andy: And Andy was never invited back.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It’s not your fault!

Micah: No, Andy, you did a good job.

Eric: Actually, your words… yeah, if we rate your words, your words are high on the list, buddy.

[Andy laughs]

Micah: Yeah, absolutely.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: So Andrew, let’s just go right to Umbridge. That’s pretty much what we want to do?

Andrew: Yeah, this is a big chapter. There is a lot happening here.

Micah: There really is. And Harry’s troubles continue right at the start of this chapter; he wakes up in the morning, and it’s really a bad day for him throughout. And he interacts with Seamus and… or actually, he doesn’t, because Seamus decides to leave early. Dean tries to help out a little bit, but at a loss for words. And then he finds out from Hermione that Lavender Brown isn’t buying Harry’s story either. So talk about waking up for your first day of classes in your fifth year at Hogwarts, people who you thought were your friends, they’re not buying what you’re selling.

Eric: Who asked Lavender anyway?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s just so funny. Lavender pre-Half-Blood Prince is way different than Lavender that we know in Half-Blood, when she’s seeking Ron and with Ron and all that. She definitely has her own personality. I’d forgotten that there seems to be some kind of struggle with the whole believing Harry thing this year on her part.

Micah: It’s okay, though, because J.K. Rowling feeds her to Greyback later on in the series.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow. You don’t believe Harry? Take this.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah. And during this discussion, when Hermione is talking about how Lavender doesn’t believe Harry, one of the things that comes up again – and I think it’s one of those prevalent themes throughout the course of this book – is House unity, because Harry talks about how if you’re talking about making friends with the Slytherins, that’s never going to happen. And just want to talk a little bit about that, because Hermione does a couple things in this chapter, and McGonagall kind of gives her kudos at the end that I think are really important, and one of those things is bringing up House unity.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s something that sounds like a really good idea, but for as long as this point system is going to be in place at Hogwarts, it’s never going to happen.

Micah: So you think as long as the Houses are pitted against each other, there’s no real way for them to come together?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly, because they’re always going to get petty over House points. They’re always going to be competing to get those House points. They’re going to be mad when one House gets more points than the other at some point during the week.

Andy: And then what happens with Quidditch? It’s just a friendly fly-along.

Eric: Everybody flies. It’s like doing laps around the pitch.

[Andy and Laura laugh]

Andy: Just every day is training.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, I think on its face, if we’re talking about House points, it might sound like maybe not the top issue, but when you think about it, it really does permeate the whole culture of the school. I mean, they’ll have double lessons with another House and watch people be awarded House points for getting an answer correct, which seems so foreign to me. We didn’t get anything like that when I was in school. We weren’t rewarded for doing our reading and having the right answer. The reward is the knowledge that you gain from paying attention.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Knowledge is the currency of school.

Andrew and Laura: Right.

Andrew: There’s seemingly no guidelines for how points are… or for when points are awarded or taken away. That’s really frustrating, because you never know when they’re going to be coming or going.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: It’s purely at the discretion of the professor or the prefect or the Head Boy or the Head Girl.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And who’s to say that they have the right judgment in many cases?

Andrew: Oh, no, they do not.

Eric: I would agree. The infrastructure is just not there to really promote, to really go out, to really allow a lot of unity to happen.

Micah: One other thing that comes up in conversation is that Harry notices Professor Grubbly-Plank is up at the table again, and he’s wondering how long Hagrid is going to be away. And Hermione mentions that perhaps Dumbledore doesn’t want to draw attention to his absence, so instead of saying, “Hey, Hagrid is going to be back on the 12th of March,” he’s allowing him to keep a low profile, which I think is important. And it’s another good observation by Hermione.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Really, I’ve always felt like the theme of these books is if everybody would just listen to Hermione, things would go a lot more smoothly.

Micah: Absolutely.

Andrew: Harry Potter and Listen to Hermione, the new book from J.K. Rowling.

Eric: Yeah, she has the right take on things. She’s definitely the one between where Harry’s headspace is at in this chapter and where Ron’s headspace is at in this chapter. She’s just the level head who really provides viable takes on what’s going on, and with Umbridge in the previous chapter as well.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: And what is the advantage of not bringing attention to Hagrid’s absence?

Andy: I presumed it was so the Ministry didn’t perhaps cotton on that Hagrid was on secret Dumbledore business.

Laura: Agreed.

Andrew: And maybe we don’t want Umbridge thinking about Hagrid and potentially banning him from the school later on.

Laura: Right, because he’s one of those, as she would call it, nasty half-breeds.

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Micah: Well, we did get a bit of comedy in this chapter, because Fred and George are in it. And one thing that came up earlier on is when they’re leaving the common room, they notice that Fred and George are looking for some test subjects for some of their products…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and that doesn’t sit too well with Hermione, and we get this whole confrontation that comes up. And I can understand where Ron is coming from as a brother, not wanting to confront two of his older siblings about what they’re doing, and it made me think, why couldn’t the Head Boy or Head Girl – I’m presuming that there is one in Gryffindor at this time – confront them? Why does it have to be Ron and Hermione, if they really feel that uncomfortable?

Andrew: Right. Well, of course, from a story perspective, it’s just better to see Ron confront his brothers…

Micah: Of course.

Andrew: … and it’s entertaining because we want to see Ron stand up to his brothers, but he can’t. [laughs] I really wish he could have here. It doesn’t seem like that big of an ask. What is he afraid of? His brothers bullying him? Taunting him?

Micah: Probably.

Andrew: This is his role now. Take it into your hands and own it.

Eric: I completely agree, and it’s very clearly wrong. Hermione… there’s really no nuance to that, that Fred and George advertising for test subjects is wrong, especially when they say later in this chapter, when confronted, that they’ll give Ron a discount on the Nosebleed Nougat, and then they reveal that there’s not currently a cure for it, and that you shrivel up and die from blood loss. [laughs] So it feels to me like it’s a completely solid platform. If you’re going to confront your brother, or any of your siblings, make sure that you have the high ground. And in this case, Ron would.

Andy: It’s not exactly a gray area in the rules, is it?

Eric: Yeah, no.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: You can’t do this. This is pretty clearly bad, experimenting.

Andy: Fundamentally wrong.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: But it also gives us insight that they believe that their futures lie outside the world of academic achievement, and they don’t have plans to return for their final year at Hogwarts. And this made me think, can we compare this to anything in the real world? And I thought a little bit about athletes who want to go pro early on. And is this a smart decision for Fred and George? Wouldn’t Molly want them to finish up Hogwarts, get a degree… assuming you get a degree when you graduate. And I thought, what about Harry stipulating that part of him giving them the money is that they need to finish out their time at Hogwarts?

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I don’t think Harry is the type of person who would make that type of stipulation. He just wants to see them thrive, and I think he sees that they are very talented people who potentially have a great future in this line of business, so why not give them the money when he doesn’t need it? So no, I don’t think Harry would need to make that stipulation. That said, it’s very disappointing for Molly, I think, that they’re going off on this wicked life doing something else.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: At least now. I’m sure she would be very proud of them later, when they’re successful as hell.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think I’d compare it to getting your GED, or your high school diploma in the States, versus taking the SATs, which are used to get into college, right? You don’t… the SATs were optional, the way that NEWTs seem to be optional, versus just passing. And it’s so interesting because I think this is the first time we hear that year seven is optional to pretty much everybody? We had long heard that there were seven years of Hogwarts, so I guess I just never knew that year seven seems to be a lot of independent study for NEWTs. But the reason it comes up in this chapter is because, of course, this year they’re going to be sitting their OWLs at the end of it, so it’s a nice bookend or punctuation, or looking forward, as far as academics, to have this kind of talk on the first day back.

Andrew: I wouldn’t describe year seven as optional, though. I think they are just going their own way.

Eric: Well, isn’t it?

Andrew: I don’t… is it?

Laura: Well, I mean, by year seven, you’re of age…

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: … I suppose it can be. Similar to the GED discussion – I mean, this varies depending on the state that you live in here in the States – but there is a certain age that you can opt to stop going to high school and take your GED. And what I find so interesting about this conversation regarding Fred and George’s education is it reminds me a lot of the state of education in this country – I don’t know if it’s similar in Australia, Andy – but they have really, on a state and federal level, eliminated a lot of the programs that would allow people to go into the kinds of trades that Fred and George are interested in, not just joke shops, but I mean things like being small business owners, or going to technical school to learn a trade, or something like that. We sort of have this mill in this country now where we’re trying to push everybody to go to college, and I feel like now at this point – and this is definitely a sidebar – we are seeing the repercussions of forcing everyone to go to college, because not everyone needs to go. And I think it’s actually pretty astute that Fred and George recognize that their career is not going to be defined by their time at Hogwarts, so I’m proud of them.

Andy: Absolutely.

Andrew: Yeah. And this idea, I think when the book was published back in 2003, is more radical than it is now, because even though, to Laura’s point, there is this push to “You’ve got to go to college,” there’s also a large trend in this country of pursuing your passion and pursuing side hustles and just doing what you believe. I mean, back in 2003 I think probably when we were all reading this for the first time, we were like, “Oh, wow, that is wild. There go Fred and George again with their crazy ideas of leaving Hogwarts early.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But now a new reader might be like, “Oh, cool.” Some people in the real world here go off and be Uber drivers or deliver for GrubHub or just find a passion through podcasting and pursue that instead of finishing school.

Micah: How millennial of them.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: [laughs] Thanks for the plug, Micah.

Micah: No problem; happy to oblige. But the reason why I thought about going pro, though, is because a lot of time athletes that are at the college level will go pro early because of financial reasons, right? And the fact that they have the opportunity to earn quite a bit of money if they’re of a certain caliber and are able to sustain at that professional level, and that we know the Weasleys are certainly a family that they don’t seem to have a lot of money, and so that’s just why that particular analogy came to me when I was reading through the chapter.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big risk for them and for the family.

Eric: On that point, my big thing here is with the money that they’ve been given, why is it not known…? And Harry has a real opportunity to come forward about this, but nobody betrays anybody. Fred and George don’t betray that Harry gave them the startup money for the joke shop. And so while Ron and Hermione are condemning their whole thing, it’s an open question that gets asked, and Harry does not… he still finds a way to not tell them, and he changes the subject. Why doesn’t he just come clean? Because I think he’d come off…

Micah: I mean, he ducks under the table, though. I mean, not only tries to change the subject. Because his face gets so red, and to me, I don’t think he wants to embarrass Ron, and I think that that is exactly what would happen, because we learned that didn’t they buy Ron a new set of robes over the summer with this money?

Andrew: Which is surprising. This must have… this is a lot of money they have to play around with if they can start buying their brother a new set of robes as well?

Eric: It’s kind of interesting. Well, they saw his dress robes last year. [laughs]

Andy: My feeling is that Harry at all costs does not want Mrs. Weasley to find out, and by extension, as soon as one person finds out, whether that’s Ron or Hermione, that’s going to filter back through to Molly, and that’s what Harry does not want to face at this point.

Laura: Bingo.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: So it’d be a confrontation?

Andrew: Yeah, because then Harry would be blamed for Fred and George going rogue and launching this devil business of theirs.

Eric: Oh, got it. Yeah, that makes sense.

Micah: Now, Cho shows up a little bit later on, and this was just… Ron goes so… I don’t even know how to describe it. Somebody else want to take this?

Eric: Yeah. I feel like Jo Rowling is starting to set up the relationship between Cho and Harry, because that comes to a head during this chapter, so that’s why she shows up. Harry is really touched that Cho made effort to come and see him or come and say hi. He, of course, blunders it right away by asking how her summer went.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: But he’s happy to not be covered in Stinksap at this point. So it’s kind of like… it’s a little would-be meet-cute if it weren’t for the fact that Ron… [sighs] ruins it.

Andrew: But also, the important moment here is Harry reflecting on why Cho came up to Harry when she probably shouldn’t want to see Harry right now, and he’s detecting some feelings from Cho, and that’s exciting.

Laura: Or at the very least that she doesn’t blame him for Cedric’s death.

Andrew and Eric: Yes.

Laura: She’s on his side. She’s not on the side of the Daily Prophet and the Ministry.

Andrew: Yeah. But I think this is one of those situations for Harry, too, where it’s like when you have a crush on somebody, you’re like, “Hmm, why did they make that move just now? What does it mean?” And you start reading into it deeply.

Laura: Right. “So you’re saying there’s a chance?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: There’s a chance here. Everything is awful, but there’s a chance with Cho.

Andy: There was a chance.

Eric: But Ron… I mentioned he blunders it; he straight out accuses Cho of not being a real Quidditch fan. There’s a meme on the Internet going around yesterday about not being a real Star Wars fan unless you’ve da-da-da-da…

Andrew: [laughs] Yes. Yeah, good timing.

Eric: This is Ron and Cho; so timely. But this term… I doubt it existed, especially in this context, in 2003, but it definitely exists now. Ron is a gatekeeper. He’s the worst Star Wars fan. He’s the guy going, “I liked it before it was cool,” or “You’re not a real fan because this, this, and this.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Now, it turns out Cho has liked her Quidditch team since she was six, but Ron makes it… Ron interrogates her, basically, and Harry even really is rubbed the wrong way by this.

Andrew: People love to brag about how long they’ve been a fan of… you hear this a lot in the real world when it comes to music. Like, “Oh, I was a fan of the band Fun before they blew up with their Some Nights album.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Or I’m sure some people probably did it with Harry Potter too. And it’s just like, can you find other meaning in your life besides bragging about how long you’ve been a fan? [laughs] And Ron is just being petty and silly here.

Micah: Clearly, I’m not a real Harry Potter fan, though, because I started reading after the sixth book came out.

Andrew: Yeah, you’re fake. I don’t even know why we allow you on this podcast.

Micah: Yeah, why’d you let me on the show?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: There’s also a component of sexism with this kind of gatekeeping as well. It’s something I have experienced as a woman; if I’m interested in a genre of something that tends to be male-dominated – like in this case with Cho, sports – having men come to me and be like, “Oh yeah, well, I’m going to quiz you about all the things about this, just to see if you actually know what you’re talking about.” And that really jumped out at me when rereading this chapter. I was like, “Oh my God, Ron, you’re being the worst right now. Just stop.”

Micah: Yep. And isn’t this also a little bit of an inadvertent wand block on Ron’s part?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Perfect.

Eric: He’s not being a good wingman, that’s for sure.

Micah: Right. One other thing I wanted to touch on from this was the bandwagon comment, right? We’ve been talking about this, the fact that you just jump on because the team is good, but I thought maybe J.K. Rowling was trying to tell us something more here, because as we’ll see… we saw in the earlier parts of this chapter with Harry’s friends not necessarily believing him, and we’ll see it more throughout the course of this book, where people jump on the Harry and Dumbledore bandwagon, especially once Rita Skeeter’s article comes out, versus maybe people jumping on that Ministry bandwagon.

Eric: I don’t know; it just seems like the term bandwagon, bandwagoners, people who are on it are less informed or are not authentic, being the genuine, true, authentic version of themselves. So I think at least with Dumbledore’s Army, when people switch bandwagons, it’s based on a lot having to do with being well-informed and better informed by Harry, and a lot of the people who joined Dumbledore’s Army later do it out of a real desire to improve their situation, because they understand how useless Umbridge’s classes are.

Andy: Yeah, for sure. And if you want to relate it back to Cho as well, you can look at Cho and Marietta, and that’s kind of the ultimate picking of sides, and you can see the consequences that obviously come from that.

Micah: So now let’s get to the worst day of classes for Harry in quite some time at Hogwarts. He starts things out with History of Magic. And question here was: When was the last time, thinking back to when we were in school, when there was a day of classes or a set of classes that we just couldn’t get through? Maybe we just told the teacher, “Hey, gotta use the restroom,” and then disappeared for the rest of the day. I don’t know.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Something along those lines. Maybe fake being sick.

Andrew: I definitely would, from time to time, miss a class, particularly in college. I mean, there were some classes, some courses that I just totally gave up on. [laughs] I was like, “F this; I don’t need this anymore.” But actually, in middle school, high school, I was a pretty good boy. I didn’t avoid classes. I just soldiered through them and still did really, really bad, like Spanish; I got a D in that class. Boy, that was bad.

Laura: Why? Why?

Andrew: Why?

Andy: That’s dreadful.

Andrew: Yeah, D for dreadful. Science, too; I just could not. I was just mentally checked out. I was just pleased I didn’t fail, because that meant I would have to do it over again.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: To me, it was an A.

Eric: Got to know the limits. Yeah, I’ve definitely had those days where you take the hall pass and you just kind of wander a little bit.

Andrew: Right, you just hang out in the bathroom for a half hour.

Eric: I mean, not to… there were people who I guess more intentionally ditched classes, and the teachers knew who those people were. But depending on the day, depending on how much sleep I got the night before, there were classes that I either slept through – overtly head down on desk kind of a thing, and the teacher gave me a side-eye later – or ones where I just was tuning out, or had to get away or go for a walk or stretch to stay awake, because it just happens. You’re 15; you’re 16. Your bodies are changing. Your energy levels are really super important, and it just fluctuates. That’s all it is. It just fluctuates.

Laura: I actually had a teacher in high school who recognized that, Eric, and at the start of our semester, he was like, “Hey, I understand you’re going to be antsy; you’re sitting in a desk all day. So if you need to get up and stretch, or you need to get up and just walk around or go get water, just do it.”

Andrew: Oh, that’s nice.

Eric: Amazing.

Laura: Yeah, and it’s a nice, small touch that recognizes the fact that, “Yeah, you’re teenagers, you’re pent up with energy, and we’re forcing you to sit in a classroom for eight hours a day.”

Eric: And teachers were always a little bit more lenient with first, second, and third period classes, the stuff in the mornings as well, for that same reason. We had to get up at, I don’t know, 6:30 in the morning to catch the bus, so it was kind of nuts.

Andy: Does it count if there was a big news story in the Harry Potter fandom and you wanted to get out of class to post it on a fansite?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Did that ever happen for you?

Andy: Because this happened many a time.

Andrew: Really?

Eric: How many times? [laughs]

Andy: “What? Book 6 is called Half-Blood Prince? Uh, can I use the bathroom?”

Andrew: “I gotta go.”

Eric: Here’s a question I have relating to Professor Binns, specifically. So Harry, I think, completely sleeps through this class, and Hermione is the only one who’s able to at least fake being interested. But the topic of today’s lecture is giant wars, and given how preoccupied Harry is – he won’t stop saying mean things about Grubbly-Plank – about Hagrid’s absence, shouldn’t this really interest Harry? Because wouldn’t this topic have extreme relevance? We, of course, know Hagrid is with the giants, treating with them because of their in the past gray area alliances with Dark wizards. This seems like it would be the most interesting class to sit in on ever.

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It made me wish I could switch POVs to Hermione, because I know that he probably said something that indicated some level of foreshadowing about the events of later in the book with Hagrid and Grawp, and I know she was paying attention, so…

Andy: I’ve always taken umbrage, to use that word, with Harry’s reaction to History of Magic, because I feel like as someone coming from the Muggle world, I would be so interested in learning everything I could possibly want to know about it.

Laura: Yeah!

Andrew: I agree.

Andy: Even if it was dry and taught by a ghost that floats through the blackboard, I would still just want to soak it all up, and Harry could not give two hoots.

Andrew: And I think Harry would be interested if it weren’t for, as you say, just how boring Binns is being. And I think we’ve probably all been there, too; we have a class that we might be interested in, but the teacher’s delivery is just… ugh, terrible. It’s like a bad podcast too. Like, “Wow, I’m interested in Harry Potter, but these guys are boring, so I am out.”

Andy: Andrew, tell us when the Chamber of Secrets opened.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That probably was his most interesting class.

Eric: Okay, okay, this is definitely second most interesting then.

[Andy and Eric laugh]

Micah: But I think at this point, Harry doesn’t really have any clue where Hagrid is, so maybe if he had an idea, then he would be a bit more interested. He’s also having a really bad day, and it’s about to get a whole lot worse.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And I do think it’s important to note that Harry really has no classes now that he enjoys, right? We just talked about History of Magic. He’s about to go to Potions, then he has Divination, and then he ends with a class that has really been his bread and butter throughout the course of the series, Defense Against the Dark Arts, and it’s now taught by Umbridge.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And so think about that. Given his state of mind already, now he’s being put into classes every single day, for the most part, with subjects and teachers that he could care less about and are boring the hell out of him, and call him names in some cases, including Snape, right? He’s talking about the OWLs, and straight up says that some of his students could be classified as being moronic.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: And he asks Harry, when he’s working on the potion later on in the class, and clearly sees that something’s wrong with it, if he can read. And there’s probably a nicer way to go about that than being such a dick, but that’s who Snape is, right?

Andrew: It’s so mean. And when you reread this book, you’re just reminded… or the series, you’re just reminded of how terrible a person Snape is. I’m sorry, but he’s not a good guy. He’s not. He’s done some important things, but he is a terrible, terrible person. You cannot treat children this way.

Eric: Agreed.

Andrew: This hurts them.

Andy: Totally agree.

Micah: And we had this email here from Emily, which actually might slightly disagree with what you said, Andrew.

Andrew: I know. Well…

Micah: Andy, do you want to read it?

Andy: Sure. So Emily says,

“Hey, MuggleCast. Regarding this week’s chapter, I noticed Snape chose the Draught of Peace, a potion to calm anxiety and soothe agitation, as the first potion to teach the students. I think this was intentional on Snape’s part, as he knows many of the students are probably feeling anxious because of all the ongoings with the Ministry, Harry, Cedric, and talk of Lord Voldemort being back. And the potion soothes agitation! It’s exactly what Harry needs right now! It’s the little details like this that prove to me that Snape is well-intentioned and is always trying to help his students and Harry, but unfortunately, can’t stop himself from being a dick in the process.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: This is an interesting observation, but I don’t think Snape was thinking of it that way. Does anyone agree with Emily?

Andy: I don’t want to give Snape credit.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, the thing is, what I love about Snape is he is so many shades of gray. He’s such a nuanced character that I don’t think – and this is kind of speaking of bandwagons – I don’t think that I would feel comfortable jumping on the bandwagon of like, “Ugh, Snape sucks,” or “Oh, Snape is actually a good guy.” I think he absolutely falls in the middle and moves along that spectrum throughout the books. And I think this is just an example of him picking a really difficult potion to start the year off with, as Harry notes in the book, and then using it as an excuse to shame his students for not being better at the subject matter. That said, we also learn that he has really high expectations for his OWL students after the fifth year, so maybe it’s also evidence of him being a good teacher.

Eric: But ultimately, you wouldn’t just put instructions on a faraway blackboard that Harry has to squint and see and expect the entire class to get it. Wouldn’t it be easier, with your hour and a half time, to go step by step on potion-making, as a teacher of potions? I’m thinking of like a Julia Childs cooking show, but… or any cooking show.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Eric: “First you glaze the turkey, then you set the oven.”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: It’s step by… if Snape was that concerned about Harry missing part B of step 3, he should have brought the whole class to this, because these students are supposed to be learning to make potions. They’re not supposed to be getting made fun of mercilessly when they make accidents. This is about being a student. You’re going to make accidents, okay?

Micah: So I think how you just framed it, though, is in complete contrast to the Defense Against the Dark Arts class and how that starts, right? So Snape has an expectation that he’s been teaching them for four years, that they should be able to follow directions and put together a potion, versus Umbridge’s class, where she’s like, “No, you’ve just had a bunch of kooky teachers over the course of these last four years. We’re going all the way back to basics. You don’t need to know anything practical.” And so Snape, though… it’s hard for me to jump on the bandwagon of him being a good guy, because when you see moments like this, he’s just treating his students like absolute crap, and I think he has a superiority complex in these moments where he’s the teacher, they’re the students, and clearly he knows more than they do. But he does have… I think the one quality I would say that’s good about him as a teacher is, as Laura said, he does expect a certain level of quality from his students and a certain level of performance from them, and if you don’t meet that, then he’s going to call you moron.

Eric: He has a lot of knowledge. We know, especially from the next book as well, he knows potions inside and out. He knew exactly what step Harry got wrong; that’s super impressive. I will never not be impressed by how well Snape knows potions, but his approach is all wrong. I’m sorry. It just is.

Laura: Oh, of course. I am curious to know, though… I mean, we see these books from Harry’s point of view, and clearly, as Emily mentioned in her email, Snape is a dick. There’s no getting around that; he definitely is. But I wonder if Harry always has his perceptions of Snape turned up to a ten, and how that could differ than maybe a third party, outside perspective of the classroom.

Andy: So you think there’s possibly some Snape confirmation bias going on.

Laura: Maybe, yeah.

Eric: You look at a Goyle’s potion – or was it Crabbe’s? – later; they say that it was just so much worse than Harry’s, but yet, Snape goes over to Harry and makes an example out of him, and asks him, “Can you read?” Like, come on. There’s definitely… I think there’s an opportunity for some bias here, but I think on the whole, Harry’s perception of things appears to be pretty accurate, especially that Snape completely disappears his potion and doesn’t even let him turn it in for a B, or if Andrew is taking Spanish, a D grade.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But I’m going to… I’ll play devil’s advocate to that, though. And you see this a lot from, let’s say, coaches, right? They ride a certain player really, really hard because they expect a certain level out of that player, and they know that that player is capable of achieving so much more. Maybe it’s Snape saying, “Harry, pay attention to the details. Concentrate. Focus.”

Eric: Interesting.

Laura: And we see him really pushing that later in this book, right?

Eric: Occlumency.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: I also found it interesting that Snape removes the potion with an Evanesco, because as we learned from Pottermore in the past year or two, that spell was used by students to remove their poo because they would evidently poo on the floor and then just spell it away.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Or on themselves.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Eric: You guys, why is Pottermore no longer a site? Gold. Comedic gold lived there.

Andrew: [laughs] But I just… Snape surely knows this, so he must also get pleasure out of Harry’s potion going to the same place as where everybody’s poop is.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Not really sure how to transition off of that, but I’m going to try.

Andrew: There’s no way.

Micah: There is no way. All right, so now it’s time for wands away, books out. Probably the… no, definitely the worst professor to ever teach at Hogwarts.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And this was definitely… I know we talked a little bit earlier about how this was the meat of the chapter, but there’s just so much that went on within these pages, and there’s so much subtext to talk about. But I wanted to start by… Umbridge says that the teaching in this subject matter has been rather disrupted and fragmented, to the class, and I don’t think she’s wrong.

Andrew: No.

Micah: She starts out by making this statement that’s actually pretty true.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: Oh, yeah. And I don’t think that it’s unreasonable that, given that we’ve had at this school for the past four years very fragmented Defense Against the Dark Arts teaching, that the Ministry might want to step in and provide some oversight, but they’ve just way overstepped here. Because they’re not actually concerned with these kids’ education; they’re concerned with making sure that these kids stay compliant and don’t try to rise up against the Ministry.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, I think – and I’m just thinking of this situation from a parent’s perspective – it’s probably nice to see a Ministry official teaching their students after there was an imposter as the teacher the previous year. I think they want assurances that this position is going to be locked down, that they’re going to have a steady hand in this position, and from the outside, it looks like, “Okay, Umbridge, a Ministry official close to Fudge, sounds good to me.”

Eric: Yep.

Andy: Do you think Dumbledore perhaps has a responsibility to the parents to let them in on the fact that there’s possibly a hunch that this thing might be jinxed and has been for some time?

Andrew: Yes! Yeah.

Andy: People have to be questioning it.

Andrew: But this is something he conveniently lets slide because maybe it’s a little embarrassing; maybe he doesn’t truly believe in the curse; maybe he thinks it’s going to be cracked really soon, once this second Voldemort situation is taken care of.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, as of this point, you have half of the wizarding world refusing to acknowledge that Voldemort is back, so I’m not even sure they’re well-primed to be able to accept something like the Defense Against the Dark Arts position being cursed, especially since it was cursed by Voldemort.

Micah: She goes on to say that “The constant changing of teachers, many of whom do not seem to have followed any Ministry-approved curriculum, has unfortunately resulted in your being far below the standard we would expect to see in your OWL year.” Is there Ministry-approved curriculum? Is all of the curriculum at Hogwarts approved by the Ministry?

Andy: It’s a good question.

Eric: I feel like clearly there are certain subjects where you need to be at a certain… Transfiguration, for instance, which is taught at least the first five years, that you need to be able to be doing more complex transfiguration each year. So I feel like that’s what it is. But the actual teaching of lessons is obviously up to McGonagall, where she wants to start. I feel like, yes, the teachers set their own curriculum in a huge way, but the Ministry surely would provide guidelines.

Andy: So perhaps we can’t give Snape any credit for assigning that potion. Perhaps that’s the OWL year, “This is what you do first up, love it or not.”

Micah: To that point, though, I could understand going back to basics and just doing some introductory lessons to start the year off, but I think taking that approach for the entire year for fifth year students just doesn’t seem right.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Andy: One thing that we learn in this chapter is that Umbridge has an unusually short wand, and one of the things that Jo wrote about… one of the better essays she wrote about, rather than the poo room stuff…

[Everyone laughs]

Andy: … is that people that have unusually short wands… or those types of wands will usually select witches or wizards whose character has something lacking.

Andrew: Huh.

Andy: Which is quite an interesting thought.

Micah: That is.

Laura: Yeah, especially considering… have we ever heard of anybody else in the series who’s noted as having an unusually short wand?

Andrew: Hmm. I’m doing some googling.

Laura: I feel like she’s the only one.

Eric: Not wand, but fingers. Both Umbridge and Peter Pettigrew have short fingers, and both of those characters, their lack of magical talent is compensated by basically dirty deeds. So what Umbridge did with the Dementors, what Pettigrew did betraying the Potters to Voldemort. People with a lack of magical talent who are witches and wizards are evil, I guess.

Andrew: I’m looking at a list, and it looks like Umbridge has the shortest in terms of major characters. The second shortest was Sir Cadogan, at nine inches.

Micah: He was also in this chapter. Very brief, but he made an appearance.

Andrew: It’s the chapter of short wands.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Umbridge put up the course aims on the blackboard, and whoever put this font in here did a very good job of showing what it probably looked like.

Andrew: Oh, thank you.

Micah: Good job, Andrew.

Andrew: I did something that I never do. It’s a “New year, new me,” that type of thing. I’m actually reading the physical Harry Potter book for this chapter, and I’d forgotten all the fonts that they use for moments like this. And now I’m going to stick with this physical copy, because it’s just way more fun than the ebook.

Eric: The eBook doesn’t contain the fonts?

Andrew: No!

Eric: Does it contain the chapter art?

Andrew: Yes. And by the way, I feel like I would like a short wand. Wouldn’t it just be easier to carry in your pocket?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It just seems more efficient. More portable.

Eric: No, you’re right. The 13 and 14 inch wands that we see… if you look at the movies, a lot of the teachers and things have these ridiculous – especially McGonagall – ridiculously long wands. It’s like, where does she store that?

Andrew: No, thank you. Ron’s is 14 inches? Wand number two at least is. Oh my gosh, no thank you.

Laura: It means he has a lot of character. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, actually, he didn’t like it, because wand number three, nine and one quarter.

Eric: Huh.

Andrew: That was Peter Pettigrew’s wand.

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: “A lot of character.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Also a lot of pain, carrying that thing around. Anyway.

Micah: These course aims are not all that exciting. Just to run through them really quickly, “Understanding the principles underlying defensive magic,” “Learning to recognize situations in which defensive magic can legally be used,” and “Placing the use of defensive magic in a context for practical use.”

Andrew: And how to get a shorter wand. They’re better, y’all.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The only part of this that interests me is the “legally” aspect. There seems to have been… we obviously touched on this last year by being taught the Unforgivable Curses, but understanding where magic fits in with society and with the laws and rules of society is a useful tactic or thing to know. You don’t need to spend all year on it, but again, figuring out when to use a spell is sort of important, but…

Micah: Right, like when you get attacked by Dementors.

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: But Hermione notices that there’s a big thing missing here.

Micah: Yeah, she speaks up, and Harry actually notes that it’s the first time, really, that he’s never seen her open up a book in class and be reading and doing what she’s supposed to be doing. She keeps her hand up for quite a long period of time, till the point where the entire class notices what’s going on. And she challenges Umbridge a bit, to which Umbridge responds, “Are you a Ministry-trained educational expert?”

Eric: Is this as bad as “Can you read?”

Micah: Yeah, I think it is, actually.

Andrew: I don’t think it’s as bad, because Harry absolutely can read, whereas Hermione is definitely not a Ministry-trained educational expert.

Eric: Right, but Umbridge knows that. She’s just…

Micah: But it’s rude.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s rude.

Eric: It’s very… it’s a good character moment for Umbridge, because rather than explain what the thinking is or stress that all this care has been put into it, she is going toe-to-toe with a 15-year-old.

Andrew: Yeah, and I don’t actually even believe that the Ministry has these trained educational experts, right? Because…

Laura: Well, I think they have people that they call trained educational experts.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Whether there’s any actual qualification there is up for debate.

Andrew: But do we believe the Ministry actually sat down and was like, “Okay, what do we actually need to do here for the Defense Against the Dark Arts class at Hogwarts?”

Laura: No.

Andrew: No, yeah. This was probably just Umbridge coming up with this plan to clap back at Harry and Dumbledore during the trial.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. The Ministry’s sinister agenda to disarm an entire year – or actually, all seven years of students – during this year is very apparent, and it’s just weird because Umbridge wants to come across as everybody’s friend. I think she even said either in this chapter or in the opening speech, “I am your friend.” But she even says, “I do not wish to criticize the way things have been run in this school.” She absolutely does, by the way. [laughs] She even says “extremely dangerous half-breeds” when talking about the previous teachers. She’s just…

Micah: But is she wrong?

Eric: She’s a fake person. That’s the problem that I have. She’s a fake…

Micah: Yeah, of course she’s fake, but is she wrong in saying that they’ve been exposed to extremely dangerous half-breeds?

Andrew: No.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, their classes all take place – or at least, Defense Against the Dark Arts takes place – in broad daylight, and during Lupin’s time of the month, he is sequestered to the Shrieking Shack or his office, right? And also, Snape brews him that potion every month, so there’s a lot of context that she’s missing here. And it’s always really interesting to think about these real world comparisons, because I think even on this show, we’ve talked about the comparisons between werewolves and other disenfranchised groups of people, like people with HIV/AIDS. There was a time not so long ago where if you had HIV, you were discriminated against in certain job sectors, in particular teaching, and it was the same thing if you were gay. There were a lot of anti-gay groups out there questioning whether or not a gay person was equipped to teach children safely, and I feel like this is very much more akin to that than it is her being concerned for the safety of the children.

Andrew: Yeah, definitely.

Micah: Yeah, she’s a purely vindictive individual, and we’ll learn a little bit more about her later from information that was on Potter-no-more.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But she also references the fact that her predecessor performed illegal curses in front of the students, but also on the students. And I think she has more context there than she does into Lupin, because I would assume she knows the history of what happened with Barty Crouch, Jr. and Mad-Eye Moody, just given that she works directly for Fudge. But Parvati raises a really great point about the practical nature of their OWLs, and this goes into how they’re being educated. So are they just expected to show up at the end of this year and perform a spell without having practiced it in any way? What’s the comparison here to, let’s say, the real world?

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t know about a real world comparison, but this is the first major crack in Umbridge’s defense, and you just feel your heart sink for these students. I mean, I’m sure they’re feeling that same way, because knowing that they aren’t going to be able to practice spells in what used to be one of their more fun classes, and then seemingly being set up for failure later in the year, is heartbreaking, especially for those who do believe that Voldemort is back, because you’re seeing a Ministry-approved class suddenly block you from preparing for what lies ahead. They’re actually setting you back.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a huge crack in Umbridge’s thing, the fact that the OWLs will have a practical component, and Umbridge has to tell the whole class that she feels a theoretical knowledge is sufficient, and it’s just clearly not the way the wind is blowing. It’d be like if you’re learning CPR, but… did you guys have to do a First Aid CPR class, and on the dummy?

Andy: Yeah, I had to do that.

Micah: Yes.

Laura: Nope.

Andrew: I didn’t, so no one be alone with me, because you’re going to be in trouble.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, we did this in high school in health class. They brought in a dummy, because when you’re performing CPR, you obviously need to know where the heart is, and it’s not where you think it is. I mean, it’s not far off, but there’s a very specific you have to find. The sternum… there’s a very specific soft spot on a human body if you’re performing CPR, and the fact of the matter is, if you did this without a dummy, and if you just read where… it’s like the Heimlich Maneuver. You really need to know where on the body this is, and if there’s no practical experience, people are going to die. So I thought that was a good comparison.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I also thought of comparing it in the wizarding world to potions, right? If you’re showing up to make potions and you’ve only read about how to make it, but you’ve never actually sat down to try and make the potion, but then you’re being tested on how to make it, it would just be probably needing some Evanesco at the end.

Eric: We need a HelloFresh for potions.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Step by step guide.

Micah: That’s why I thought it was just… it seems like Umbridge is setting her students up for failure here, and I think it would be a really bad reflection on her as a teacher if they’re all showing up to their OWLs at the end of this year, and there’s a practical portion of this examination, and none of them know how to cast a Patronus Charm or something to that effect.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a really great point, and it makes you wonder why Umbridge is okay with that. Maybe she only intended on being here one year. It doesn’t matter how the students do in their OWLs because she’s going to be out of there anyway, and she won’t have to face the music when they do badly and maybe Dumbledore or the Ministry is like, “Hey, why did they do so bad? Weren’t you supposed to fix things? Make things better? Was the imposter better than you? Was the wolf better than you? The werewolf?”

Andy: Though, I think in the end, she just doesn’t care about parent/teacher interviews. She wants to subjugate the students, accelerate her position in the Ministry, and act as Fudge’s mouthpiece.

Eric: Pretty succinctly put.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess. It still doesn’t look good on her, though, if these students are coming out of this course worse off than they previously were.

Micah: True, and it’s also mentioned in her Potter-no-more write-up that she was often passed over for positions of responsibility at Hogwarts, so she really – and I’m assuming that’s prefect, Head Girl, things like that – so she’s probably looking at this as an opportunity to really dig in and give it to Dumbledore and others at Hogwarts.

Andy: Yeah, she’s definitely got a personal vendetta as well.

Eric: So interesting.

Andrew: I like that you just keep saying “Potter-no-more” casually. That should be a new rule on this show. We all just say “Potter-no-more,” not that other word.

Micah: I’m fine with that.

Andrew: Cool. Deal.

Micah: So Umbridge tells the students after this back and forth, “If you are still worried, by all means come and see me outside class hours. If someone is alarming you with fibs about reborn Dark wizards, I would like to hear about it. I am here to help. I am your friend.”

Eric: There it is.

Micah: So this is to your point, Eric, earlier about her just wanting to be all buddy-buddy with the students. Really what she wants is control. She wants knowledge. She wants to keep tabs on what’s going on. She wants to hear about any rumors that may be being spread by students, particularly Harry. And Harry gets into it with her, which I think we were all kind of expecting. In fairness to Harry, look, he’s had a really bad day.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I know I said that earlier, but just think about the day that he’s gone through since five minutes after waking up, up until this point. And I think, though, he started to talk about something that a lot of the other students were very interested in hearing about, and that’s what happened to Cedric.

Eric: I’m surprised, I guess, that it catches Umbridge so off guard. I mean, clearly she doesn’t have any experience with students and how children can be stubborn, because Harry is a masterclass in that. She does not have a prepared line – even having come from the Ministry, a prepared line – about Cedric Diggory’s death. She’s able to stumble and say, “Oh, it was a tragic accident,” but there’s really no alternative fact here about what happened to him, and it’s a wonderful foothold for Harry’s argument and for the rest of the class to kind of rally around Harry on.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. It’s a great moment. It feels good to see Harry do this, even though he is getting himself in major trouble. But it does also make me wonder what the official Ministry line is, other than it being a freak accident. Like, what specifics can you give, if any? There aren’t any, but are they making them up?

Eric: It seems easy. You could blame the Triwizard Tournament. The fact that the Triwizard Tournament hasn’t been happening for a thousand years or something crazy at the beginning of Book 4 is because people kept dying, so you could easily blame the maze or the sphinx. Like, “Oh yeah, the sphinx stumped Cedric Diggory to death with its riddle.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Oh, yeah, he was eaten by some shrubbery.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Or, “Oh yeah, he was Evanesco‘d accidentally when Filch was cleaning up the maze.” [laughs] Give some specific details; they deserve that because one of their fellow students died, and one way to cope with this is to know the truth so they can begin to move on. Because then all these students are probably wondering like, “Well, what did happen? And can that happen to me here at Hogwarts? This place that is a security nightmare?”

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That is the new clip created by our listener Lyndon. Thank you, Lyndon, for that little sound effect thing. [laughs]

Micah: I like that. Yeah, and it’s surprising because this is the moment that gets him in trouble, versus when he says Voldemort’s name, which only got 10 points from Gryffindor, so I mean, I’m just surprised. I would think Voldemort’s name would carry a little bit more cachet than 10 points, but… all good.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

Eric: She’s testing the waters.

Andrew: Well, every time he says it, the points should be doubled, so the first time 10, and then it’s said a second time, right? So that time should have been 20.

Micah: So Harry ends up getting detention, which in the back of my mind I think was Umbridge’s intent all along, and she sends him with a note to go see Professor McGonagall. And upon reading the note, I thought we get what is possibly the best line in the Harry Potter series, when Professor McGonagall says to Harry, “Have a biscuit, Potter.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And it’s just with everything that’s gone on in this chapter, all the mental aggravation that Harry has been put through, it just puts a little bit of levity on the chapter. She’s just like, “Sit down. Relax. Have a cookie.”

Andrew: Yeah. And it’s good to know that somebody is on Harry’s side – a teacher in the school is on Harry’s side – because after how badly his day has went, you don’t expect it to get any better.

Eric: Right. But she’s able to… I think she’s able to break through to him a little bit by stressing how careful Harry has to be. Harry knows that she’s on his side, but she’s also trying to impress upon him the seriousness of his being so bold. And she says words to that effect; she just really… she’s like, “I need you to be way smarter than you are,” basically.

Laura: Yeah, “Pick your battles very carefully.”

Eric: Yep.

Andy: I just love that the biscuit is called a Ginger Newt as well.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah! The second time “Newt” is brought up in this chapter. I think between those two references to the NEWTs and then the Ginger Newt and then J.K. Rowling naming a character Newt, she really loves the word “Newt.”

Andy: I presume that’s a play on Ginger Nut. Is that a biscuit that you have in the States? Or a cookie? The Ginger Nut?

Andrew: No.

Andy: That might be an Aussie/Brit thing.

Laura: We have Ginger Snaps.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: I wonder if they’re the same thing.

Andy: A Ginger Nut is a biscuit that you might dip in your foreign tea, as it were.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, you could do that with Ginger… I bet they’re the same thing, or at least similar.

Andrew: They look the same. I’m googling.

Micah: What was your reaction while listening when we were talking about foreign tea?

Andy: [laughs] Honestly, I knew straight away, and I thought, “Boy, there’s going to be some emails coming in.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Thank you for not adding to the pile.

Andrew: “These dumb Americans.”

Andy: No, I figured you had it covered.

Andrew: [laughs] We like learning.

Laura: It’s not as bad as reading this chapter for the first time, and from an American perspective, be like, “Why does McGonagall have biscuits in her office?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Was she just at KFC?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Was she just at Bojangles? Was she just at Popeye’s? Yeah, that was what I was thinking.

Andrew: Oh my God, yeah. Embarrassingly, even reading this today, I’m not thinking about cookies. I’m thinking about KFC biscuits.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Southern style.

Andy: So what is the biscuit in the States? Is that what we would call a scone?

Laura and Micah: No.

Andrew: It’s like a little piece of bread.

Eric: It’s salty.

Laura: It’s salty and kind of flaky. You eat… it’s savory.

Andrew: You put butter on it.

Andy: Look, it sounds tasty. If Professor M. offered me one, I’d be into it.

Laura: Oh, heck yeah.

Andrew: We were also talking to Andy about White Claw before the show. So Andy, come over here. We’re going to have some White Claw and American biscuits.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: We’ll culture you, Andy.

Andy: Sounds wonderful.

Micah: Yeah, so the chapter really wraps with McGonagall giving Harry some important advice to be mindful of his actions, as we just spoke about, because it’s not just like he’s acting out in front of Snape; he’s acting out in front of a professor who has a direct line to the Minister of Magic, and that is a major, major problem. And she does shout out Hermione for being astute and paying attention, which she does all the time anyway, but Hermione is really important, I think, in this chapter, and she shines through at a number of moments. But before we close out the chapter, wanted to talk a little bit about Umbridge. There is quite a write-up – and thanks to Andy for catching this – on her and her family over on Potter-no-more, also known as WizardingWorld.com, just so people can reference it if they want to. And it really dives deep into who she is as a person, as well as her family, and it gives a lot of insight into why she is the way she is, and I encourage listeners to go check it out. We’ll probably bring up a number of these points, though, throughout the course of our discussion of Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Guys, you know what I just realized? PotterNoMore.com is available, and I am so buying it right now.

Laura: What?!

Eric: Buy it.

Laura: Do it.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Holy cow.

Eric: That is a blatant oversight on everyone.

Andrew: I’m buying it. Nobody beat me to it who’s listening live.

Micah: Andy, can you get the .au version?

Andy: [laughs] Yeah, let’s get all the countries. Who’s getting .nz?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I’m going to buy this. I’m just going to… if I can redirect it for free, I’m just going to redirect it to Harry Potter Fan Zone for a little while.

[Everyone laughs]

Andy: That’ll get the servers going again. It’s been 15 years.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: This is great. I actually would have assumed that Pottermore would have bought PotterNoMore.com. [laughs] I don’t know why, but…

Andy: Are you just getting me a lawsuit, Andrew?

Andrew: [laughs] “We want that domain back.” You know what? No, they bought… they stole HarryPottersHouse.com from me, so I’m taking this and I’ll go to court over this one. If they want this, they can give me back HarryPottersHouse.com.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Okay, time for the Umbridge Suck count; we can add a bunch of moments to the tally here. Calling herself the class’s friend; that’s definitely one. That was sickening. Denying Voldemort’s return, saying nothing is out there. And then also, sidebar, just insulting Cedric’s memory by saying that Voldemort did not kill him. I mean, that’s terrible. If Cedric is looking down, I would be really mad that this is how the Ministry is handling this. So that’s three. Saying that they are all safe from any Dark wizard? That is not true at all and very dangerous to say. And then going excessive with the detentions for Harry. As we see in the scene with McGonagall, Harry gets detention every night that week, and she does something really terrible to him in the next chapter that lives with him for the rest of his life. In the Cursed Child, you still see the scars on Harry’s hands, which I was shocked by, that they would… okay, so maybe that’s true, and maybe J.K. Rowling intended those scars to be permanent, but then for the Cursed Child to actually paint them on Harry Potter actor’s hands every night? Like, wow. Talk about detail.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, seriously.

Andrew: So that’s five. So one…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Two…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Three…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Four…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Five…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: … added to the tally today, and now we’re up to 16, unless anybody else had any others?

Eric: That’s good.

Laura: I think you covered it.

Andrew: Okay. And by I, I mean, I think Micah wrote these. I just wanted to give him a…

Eric: It was me.

Andrew: Oh, okay, Eric. I just wanted to give Eric a break. [laughs]

Eric: Thank you.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, and we do have some threads to connect today between Order of the Phoenix and Prisoner of Azkaban. The largest and I think the most obvious theme that we can connect here is Defense Against the Dark Arts, and really how their first Defense Against the Dark Arts lesson of the year in Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix could not be more opposite. We had Lupin teaching very practically in terms of introducing students to the concept of a boggart and then teaching them how to defend themselves against that, whereas Umbridge is pushing theory with no clear base in the theory herself. She’s literally telling the kids, “Okay, open your books and read, and I’m just going to sit here at my desk and stare at you while you do.” So clearly, she has no background in it herself, because she’s not even helping to guide the theoretical education here. So these lessons could not be more opposite. The other threads that I found are smaller threads, but I think that they’re entertaining to consider. So there’s a couple of things with Harry and Cho. In Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14, which is around the same pace in Book 3 as it is here in Book 5, Harry first notices that Cho is pretty. And he’s playing Quidditch against her in this chapter, but even so, she’s still kind to him, and even points out that there are Dementors on the pitch. Similarly, she doesn’t hold Ron’s tactlessness against Harry in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12. So even though in Book 3 they’re Quidditch rivals, she’s still helpful to Harry, and even though here in Order of the Phoenix, when she could very well have decided, “I think Harry knows more about Cedric’s death than he’s letting on; I think he might have been responsible,” instead of jumping on that bandwagon, she is clearly being on Harry’s side, even though Ron is being a wand block.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Then we also have some points with McGonagall and Hermione. So in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 11, McGonagall confiscates Harry’s new Firebolt after Hermione reports it, and Harry and Ron are very, very upset with her for this. In Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, after Harry sort of regurgitates Hermione’s interpretation of the Sorting Hat’s new song, McGonagall remarks that she’s at least glad Harry listens to Hermione, and I think this shows progress for Harry in terms of really seeing how important and how correct Hermione is a lot of the time, and he’s getting praise for it from McGonagall. And then finally, I noticed some differences in terms of Hermione’s class load and her interpretation of it. So Fred and George tease Hermione that the fifth year will be her worst course load yet, and they tell her that she’ll be begging for some of that Nosebleed Nougat once she starts getting into her courses, which made me think maybe they weren’t paying attention to her third year, when she was literally taking every single class she possibly could and had to use a Time-Turner to make all of her lessons. To illustrate that, if we look at Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13, Hermione is overwhelmed to the point of breaking down into tears and having to flee the common room because she has 400 pages she has to read by Monday, so I think that this also is representative of Hermione’s development and realizing that being a good student and being intelligent and witty does not mean that she has to take every single class and completely overload her plate. So those are our threads for the week.

Andrew: Awesome. Good work; thank you so much. And while you were talking, I became the proud owner of PotterNoMore.com, and it is already redirecting to Harry Potter Fan Zone.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Thank you, GoDaddy. You’re so quick.

Andy: Wait till I get Pottermore.net. I’ll send it to MuggleCast.

Andrew: [laughs] There you go. And it’s registered to the MuggleCast PO box, so Eric, stand by for some letters. Some cease and desists from Warner Bros. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, some good old C&Ds. Great. Thanks, buddy.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: It’s time now for the MVP of the Week. My MVP were the biscuits. Thank you, biscuits, for a much needed reprieve in this chapter, and now I know that you’re actually cookies and not delicious, warm, salted bread.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Why do you put on a southern accent when you talk about biscuits?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Because I’m thinking KFC. Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Southern Hagrid. Well, I’m going to give it to the biscuit maker, Professor McGonagall. She provided some much needed breath of fresh air at the end of this chapter, and it was nice to see the relationship between her and Harry that wasn’t necessarily teacher to student.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to the biscuit eater, Harry, for finally taking his anger out on someone who deserves it.

Eric: Speaking of deserving it, I’m going to give mine to the people who deserve biscuits, Fred and George, for not selling Harry out, not giving away his secret.

Andy: And I’m going to give it to somebody who has nothing to do with biscuits, but is always three steps ahead of the game, always there to question authority, and has the time to do her prefect duty correctly, and that is Hermione Granger.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: Love it.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Toad-ally Owned.” Toad-ally, T-O-A-D.

Micah: Toad.

Eric: Nice.

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “What a Day.”

Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Fight the Power.”

Eric: [laughs] Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “The Lie.”

Andy: Harry Potter in the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Umbridge Sins, Biscuit Wins.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Love it.

Micah: That’s the best one. Andrew, yours was good too.

Andrew: Pat really liked mine. None of you did, though. Thanks a lot.

Eric: It was great!

Andy: I liked it. It was toad-ally awesome.

Andrew: Oh yeah, there you go. Thank you.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He just heard me say it and was like, “That’s great!” from across the room.

[Andy laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, or if you have a question about Chapter 13, email us, MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can go to MuggleCast.com and use the contact form there. You can also call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE, or send us a voice memo. Just record it using the Voice Memo app on your phone and then send it to MuggleCast@gmail.com.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Quizzitch.

Eric: Yes, last week’s question: What characters from the original Harry Potter series have also been in both Cursed Child and the Fantastic Beasts series? There are two of them. Do you guys have any guesses?

Micah: Well, I would guess Dumbledore would be one of them.

Eric: Dumbledore is one of them.

Andrew: Hmm. A Niffler.

[Micah laughs]

Andy: Is it another teacher, perhaps?

Eric: [laughs] It’s McGonagall.

Andrew: Oh, of course.

Eric: Yes, Dumbledore and McGonagall are both in… yeah, because McGonagall is in Crimes of Grindelwald; let’s not forget.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Eric: So yeah, correct answers were submitted to us on Twitter by Reese Without Her Spoon, Kate Yang, Adriana Contreras, Miles Brown, Young Susie Blood, Jason King, Mary Lapacki, and Marissa Cameron.

Andrew: And Andy, of Harry Potter Fan Zone. What?!

[Andy laughs]

Eric: Andy from Harry Potter Fan Zone?!

[Andrew laughs]

Andy: It’s all going full circle. I’ve got a Time-Turner. I’m like Hermione; I’m going back to answer the questions to come on to give the questions.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: We should have him on the show sometime.

Eric: Yeah, seems like a cool guy.

Micah: People will think if you get Quizzitch right now, that gets you to co-host the show.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Okay, and then next week’s Quizzitch question is: What has Hermione been preparing over her summer holidays? There’s very specific things she’s been doing.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: And submit your answers to us over on Twitter, hashtag Quizzitch, at MuggleCast.

Andrew: All right, Andy, thank you so much for coming on today. It was great having you on.

Andy: Thanks for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Andrew: Awesome. Yeah, we’ll have to have you on again sometime. And you can find Andy at HarryPotterFanZone.com, the award-winning Harry Potter website.

Andy: Also…

Micah: Or PotterNoMore.com.

Andy: … PotterNoMore.com, my new hub. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, or go there if you want to access it. You also just launched a new design, which looks great. And like I said to you before recording it, I love that it respects the original design that you had all those year. Good stuff.

Andy: Thank you. It’s been a passion project for a few months now, so I’m really glad it’s up.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, turned out great. And if you scroll down to the very bottom, you can see the badge from J.K. Rowling, the fansite award.

Eric: Aw, yeah.

Andrew: We would love if you joined our community today, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We have some new benefits that will be announced in the weeks ahead; we are very excited about them. And it is also our 15th year podcasting, believe it or not, and we’re going to try to do a special gift for our listeners since it is such a big anniversary. Also, don’t forget to follow us on social media: Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Username MuggleCast. I definitely recommend following us on Instagram; we’ve been doing some fun stuff over there, including with our story. I saw a really sad situation with the Harry Potter books last night at a party I was at, so I Instagrammed my frustration through the MuggleCast account. So we would appreciate if you follow us there, and you will stay up to date on Harry Potter news and what’s going on with the show. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Andy: And I’m Andy.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Micah and Andy: Bye.

Laura: See ya.

Transcript #447b

 

MuggleCast 447b Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #447b, Why J.K. Rowling’s Tweet Was Transphobic and Hurtful


Show Intro


Andrew Sims: Hey everyone, Happy New Year, and welcome to another year of MuggleCast. We’re excited to have you listening in our 15th year of podcasting, wow. Today we have for you a chat about J.K. Rowling’s controversial tweet with a friend of ours named Rori, who’s transfemme. We spoke to Rori about why the tweet was hurtful to trans people and their allies. No matter how you feel about the tweet, we hope you learn something from this discussion and just hear out our point of view. We actually recorded this as part of Episode 448, but it ended up feeling like an episode in its own right, so we are releasing this special installment of MuggleCast a day before your regularly scheduled episode. And now the interview. We are joined by Rori, somebody we’ve known for a long time. Hi, Rori.

Rori Porter: Hi there. How are you?

Andrew: Yeah, good. How are you?

Rori: I am doing absolutely wonderful.

Andrew: Good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Rori: Yeah, I’m 31. I’m transfemme, which means that, in slightly outdated terms, I’m male-to-female transgender. I work in advocacy in LA; I actually just recently started a new position with the AIDS Healthcare Foundation.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Rori: So that’s what I’m doing right now. I also write online quite a bit. But just me as a whole, just kind of a nerd.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And like I said, we’ve known you for a while. You’ve designed some awesome websites for us, including back when Twilight was a thing; I think we had you design TwilightSource.com, right?

Laura Tee: Oh, wow.

Rori: Oh, God. Yeah, I did that. I at one point designed MuggleCast.

Eric Scull: Nice.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Which design was it?

Rori: It was real muddy. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh yeah, the brown one, yeah.

Rori: Yeah, yeah. It was a very rough-looking scrap of parchment or something. It’s certainly not to my design standard now.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, we all grow and change.

Rori: It’s not in my portfolio anymore. But it was for a very long time.

Andrew: Anyway, so back in late December, it’s the end of the year. We’re wrapping things up. We recorded two episodes of MuggleCast in advance just to get things out of the way. And then we all wake up one morning to this tweet from J.K. Rowling. It reads, “Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real? #IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill.” On its face, I think a lot of people read the tweet and was like, “Oh, okay, J.K. Rowling is back tweeting something political, whatever. That’s what she does all the time.” I think a lot of us have come to maybe tune out a lot of what she says, too, [laughs] because it just became so much at some points. But then we started hearing people in the LGBT community and the transgender community be like, “Whoa, I can’t believe she just tweeted this.” So Rori, can you tell us what is this tweet in reference to, first of all?

Rori: Yeah, and actually, this tweet is kind of loaded. This tweet is designed to have you look at it and say, “Oh, this looks supportive.” “Love whoever you like, dress the way you want, consenting adult…” That’s all designed for you to look at it and not know that it’s messed up. When you start digging deep into it, these are things that are said by TERFs in a lot of online spaces that are designed to pull people into their movement, so that you don’t notice that you’re being pulled in by hate. So it sounds completely reasonable to say, “Dress the way you want, love who you want to love,” but then the “Sex is real” comment kind of flips it on its head, because that’s implying that trans people think that sex isn’t real. It definitely throws us off. It’s not starting a debate from a point of common understanding. There’s no good faith here.

Micah Tannenbaum: Do you mind just explaining what a TERF is?

Rori: Oh, yes, a TERF is a trans-exclusionary radical feminist. This is actually a name that they originally created for themselves on Tumblr back in the great Tumblr discourse wars of 2012.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Rori: And when trans people started actually calling them TERFs, because they were definitely using it and claiming it themselves and very proudly saying, “I am a trans-exclusionary…” whatever, when we started saying that to them as well and using it back harshly, they decided that it was a slur against them. And now they call themselves “gender critical.” Gender critical feminists, or gender critical radical feminists. And this is another means of hiding the hate within their movement under a facade of wokeness.

Andrew: Part of this… she is referring to this trial that occurred, and she hash tagged, “I stand with Maya.” What was this trial about? And what was the ruling?

Rori: Yeah, that’s actually one of the really interesting things about this, is how mischaracterized this trial was, that Maya Forstater was not fired even. She had a contract that was not renewed. And what happened was, she was working in a position of advocacy, and this was in the UK, and her employer found that she had been going on to Twitter and doxing and harassing trans women, particularly trans women, and basically trying to make them get off the platform. And I don’t have complete verification of this; I’ve just heard it anecdotally. But she was apparently using a work email, so there were some consequences. And when her employer found out that she was doing this, they just decided not to renew her contract. There was no firing involved. They had every right to do that. And especially in the UK, this kind of speech that Maya Forstater engages in isn’t protected under their laws, so in no way were any laws broken. And in no way was anybody abused except for the trans women that Maya Forstater went on Twitter to try to knock them off the platform.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And there’s something in the UK called the Gender Recognition Act, and so Maya Forstater sued to have her comments be viewed as protected philosophical speech, I believe, is what it was.

Rori: Right. Yes.

Eric: But what happened was on the day that J.K. Rowling tweeted, the judge released a statement that favored the employer and said that, in short, she would “refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate, even if it violated their dignity and creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating, or offensive environment.” And the judge said that approach “is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.” So this amazing judge said, “There is no place for that behavior, basically, in the realm of advocacy, in the realm of doing what you’re doing. The workplace is completely reasonable in not renewing your contract.”

Rori: Exactly. And in my position in advocacy, if I went into a foundation and started speaking against, say, the homeless population of Los Angeles, that would not be a good look for me, and I would be fired immediately because that is who my organization serves. And that is completely within the bounds of that organization to say, “You do not represent us. You are going online and you are trashing what we do; we don’t want to be associated with you.” And I think that’s completely reasonable.

Laura: Yeah, at the bare minimum, we’re talking about somebody creating a toxic and hostile work environment. And I think that it’s the right of any organization, business or otherwise, to say, “Mm, you’re creating a hostile work environment,” or “You have the potential to do that, based on your behaviors outside of work, when you have this very public-facing role intended for this kind of advocacy. We’re not going to work with you anymore.”

Eric: So not only does this judge say “There’s no place for this in democratic society,” but J.K. Rowling decides to then break six months – nine months? – of Twitter hiatus, and create this Tweet with the hashtag “I stand with Maya.”

Rori: And I think, ultimately, Rowling throwing her support here is extremely disturbing, because this isn’t just transphobia. This is a transphobic movement. It exists online, it very closely mirrors the alt-right movement and how they groom young people. They catch young feminists when they’re in college, oftentimes, when they’re malleable, when they’re willing to follow an authoritative voice. And that’s really what’s so dangerous here, is that this movement is very strong, especially on Twitter and Reddit, and Rowling giving any legitimacy to that movement is frankly horrifying.

Andrew: Can you tell us why this is hurtful to not only transgendered people but the LGBT community and why this so goes against what we thought J.K. Rowling stood for in her books?

Rori: I mean, from my perspective, this is something I was raised with. They caught me at a Scholastic Book Fair, I got the Potter cult at age 10. So this is something that I’ve lived with for most of my life, 21 years, at least, of a Harry Potter fan, and internalizing those stories and really feeling them deeply. And also finding Harry Potter to be a very grounding place when I’m in bad times and bad mental health spaces, and that’s something that has been taken away from me personally. I can’t necessarily speak for the entire community, but I do know a lot of people feel this way that something that was very precious to us, that was grounding and gave us foundation and taught us a lot, has been taken away from us by the very icon that we idolized.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: And it’s very hard to see people supporting her still. The discourse surrounding this has heated up to such an extent that my social spaces are uncomfortable to traverse through. Twitter is a hellscape.

Laura: And given the fact that J.K. Rowling has such wide influence, but particularly with youth populations, what’s the impact on trans kids of seeing somebody like this make this kind of comment?

Rori: I mean, I think trans kids are often in such a vulnerable state because we have to understand that when we say trans kids, we often mean trans closeted. These are kids who are sensitive and quiet, and you don’t necessarily know that something’s wrong until they’re gone. And that’s the problem I have with J.K. Rowling’s tweet, is that it’s so irresponsible toward these kids who are reading her stories and internalizing these messages, and then seeing her go and say that they’re invalid, that they’re not worthy. That is at such a formative formative age. When I was reading Harry Potter at age 10, if I had any sense of my gender, that would have been absolutely horrible. I don’t know how I would have internalized that at that age. I think it would have been fairly devastating to my psyche at that age.

Eric: There’s a direct reply to Rowling’s tweet I’d like to bring up because I think it also touches exactly on what we’re talking about. Princess Lily on Twitter says, “I grew up as a trans child reading your books as an escape. I would often pick out names from characters to give to myself, before I ever felt comfortable in who I was. This decision, to support people that hate me, and want to do me harm. It brings me to tears… Why. Why?”

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Why? Why does J.K. Rowling use the hashtag “This is not a drill” to…?

Rori: Actually, that’s a good point. And that’s something I wanted to round about to eventually, is that “This is not a drill” is a TERF dog whistle for “We are literally going to war with the trans women.” That is what that means. And that is what those circles use it as, is that it is a call to action in a very, very visceral, violent way.

Andrew: It’s also just so hurtful because, like Rori, you said, we grow up with these books, and it teaches messages of inclusion, loving everybody. And then of course, J.K. Rowling has been an advocate for the LGBT community in several ways over the years. We’ve always wished that there were more gay characters present in the Harry Potter series; it never happened. Of course, she outed Dumbledore after the book was released. There was an opportunity, many people felt, in the Cursed Child; it didn’t happen there either. So we didn’t get what we really wanted. But she definitely seemed to be fully supportive of LGBT people, queer people on a whole, and then something like this… she’s just really pulling the rug out from under us.

Rori: And it does make you question all of her previous stances.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: Not to minimize some of her advocacy, especially with children across the world and making sure that kids aren’t thrown into orphanages; I think that’s really a valid and wonderful thing that she’s taken on. That doesn’t make this better.

Andrew: Exactly. On December 19, when she wrote this tweet, a lot of people in the fandom – people you probably follow – all came out and said, “This is not okay, what J.K. Rowling did, and we’re really hurt by this.” The unity within the fandom that day was really special. That said, there are some people, including probably a bunch of our listeners – we did get some emails from people who wrote in and were trying to defend J.K. Rowling – who were on her side in that, “Let her voice her opinion. It’s not a big deal. She’s done a lot of good in the world.” But the stance on this panel here is what she said was hurtful, and it was disappointing.

Eric: I cannot support somebody with that level of a platform who kicks vulnerable people while they’re down. I can’t do it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Same.

Rori: And just from my position – and this is an over-exaggeration of my place in society – but from the trenches looking at transphobia, I don’t see how people could continue supporting her and calling themselves allies. You have to pull your money. In our society, in our capitalistic society, one of the ways that you can vote best is with your dollar. And personally, the way that I’m moving forward is not by not engaging with the universe, not by not enjoying the Harry Potter stuff I already own, but by not paying further into it.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Yeah. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I was really taken by these comments and this whole event to really just remind myself that we as Harry Potter fans – or we do a weekly podcast on Harry Potter – as consumers of media and of this franchise and its global assets, everything, we’re in a constant dialogue with this. And really, this is true with any show, any book, anything that we engage with; we are constantly consciously choosing to pay for it and to invest in it. And you know what? This is a conversation where we can stop. We can stop buying these things. We can stop supporting these people whose views are so hateful. We can do it.

Andrew: Honestly, I’m still going to be buying things. Obviously, we’re still doing this podcast. Us here on the panel, maybe not Rori, we’ll be seeing the next couple of Fantastic Beasts movies and whatever comes next.

Rori: I mean, I’m looking up at my fourth edition of the Jim Kay Harry Potter illustrated versions. I’m not sure that I can’t not buy the fifth one.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, there you go.

Rori: I need to complete my set.

Eric: But it’s a struggle.

Rori: And that’s the balance that we’re dealing with right now, yeah.

Eric: But yeah, it’s an individual choice, and it’s all really, really difficult. But you guys, this is going to stop me from buying shit. Honestly, it will. I’ll see the movie; we need to talk about it on the podcast. I’m really not going to directly support JKR. I’m not going to buy the next Strike novel; I’m just not going to do it. I don’t care enough.

Andrew: How I’m going to cope with this is I think it’s time to separate the art from the artist. It’s about the fandom for me now, interacting with everybody through the podcast, going to fan events, seeing friends that I’ve known forever from time to time, socializing with them more, enjoying the stories that J.K. Rowling is writing. But I think it’s time to face the music that J.K. Rowling is a 50-something-year-old woman who has very different views and whose views may not change in our lifetime. And remember, this isn’t the first time that she’s suggested that she’s transphobic. She has followed people on Twitter who have a history of being transphobic. She has liked transphobic tweets. She also…

Rori: Yeah, and in her other books. She’s also had a few transphobic characterizations, particularly in the Robert Galbraith books, and I think in The Casual Vacancy.

Andrew: Yes, that’s true. She has also insulted the Native American community. She has been doing things that are very problematic. This was the most blatant of them all, though. To return to Twitter… the other thing is – this is getting more gossipy now – but why this? You were stewing over this so much that you had to go and tweet about it? Just sometimes I seriously wonder if J.K. Rowling has friends.

Rori: Well, part of this is, I think, this is the discourse around trans people that’s happening in the UK right now. The divide over there is much more volatile.

Andrew: But can’t she just text one of her friends, like, “I cannot believe what is happening with this trial”?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, that’s what I said to you, though, I think, Andrew. I don’t think that makes it any better, though. I mean, if she does it under this guise of just, “Oh, I’m going to text this woman who I’m supporting,” or “I’m going to find a way to reach out behind the scenes,” it doesn’t make it any better, because she still feels this way. And going back to book references, I don’t really know what to make of it, but let’s not forget that in Prisoner of Azkaban the way that Neville deals with his boggart is to imagine Professor Snape in his grandmother’s clothes. So I don’t know if there’s any kind of subtext going on there as well.

Rori: It’s definitely a little something in there, yeah. That definitely betrays a little… the “man in a dress is funny” trope definitely was probably the first thing that betrayed her. We just didn’t notice it because we were kids.

Micah: Right, but I just wanted to go back to… I think, Rori, you explained it really well, because when I first read the tweet, being completely honest, I didn’t really think much of it. I had to dig and quite honestly listen to other people’s responses and educate myself. But I guess…

Rori: That really is truly what’s so insidious about it is that to understand the tweet, you either have to already understand where she’s coming from, or you have to do some research. And a lot of people aren’t willing to do that, so they don’t see the problem.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: I personally found… you talked about how the language at the beginning of the tweet is intentionally misleading, and on its face, it does seem positive and inclusive. But to me, when I first read it, I was like, “Okay, so you think that being trans is just about dressing how you want?”

Andrew: Right. That also cheapens it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s so dismissive and so flippant that I was like, “Eugh.”

Rori: Yeah, that’s actually a really common thing to corner trans women about is like, “Oh, you have acrylic nails. Do you think that’s all being a woman is?” I’m like, “Yes. Yes, I do. Absolutely. 100%.”

[Andrew laughs]

Rori: “All my 31 years of life on this planet have culminated in my gender being acrylic nails.”

Andrew: Some people might grapple with transgender people, they may not understand it, including maybe some of our listeners. And the way I think of it and the way I explain it to other people sometimes, especially the older generations… a lot of them just don’t get it. Trans people are not as welcomed as gay people are in today’s society. And even 10, 15, 20 years ago, obviously gay people weren’t very welcomed, either. But the way I explain it to people is to think about somebody who has decided to come out as gay. They just have this burning feeling deep inside them that they are attracted to people of the same sex. And Rori, correct me if I’m wrong, but trans people feel the same way, that they just have this desire that they are a different gender. You can’t shake this feeling; it is just what is inside of you. It is a part of you. Nobody wants to have to go through the coming out process. It’s incredibly hard. But they do it because they know there’s no other way.

Rori: Well, that’s a huge thing, is that that’s a huge part of the trans experience for a lot of people. And then for a lot of people, the trans experience is being super confused about gender. I actually didn’t have a concept of gender for a long time; I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand the binary nature of it. So when I found that I was attracted to men, I really was like, “I must be gay,” and then just went that direction for a while until I was like, “Oh, wait, this is not the path. This is not who I am,” and started unlocking a lot of issues. Because trauma also can freeze people’s gender identity in place and not really know what’s going on, so it’s really complex. And that’s part of why Rowling’s situation is so hard to look at, is because for a lot of us, this identity is really hard fought. This has come with a lot of therapy for me; I had to go through years of therapy to realize that I was trans. It was so repressed. So some people do definitely have really emergent trans characteristics, like the kid who comes out at 3 really distinctly trans, but for a lot of us, it’s not that cut and dry.

Laura: It also seems, too, just… because I did my own research on this as well, just to really try and understand the full scope and the full context behind this tweet. And it seemed like a lot of, and they were women interacting with J.K. Rowling, who agreed with her, were also coming from a place of seemingly feeling threatened by trans women being considered women and having that distinction and that class assigned to them. I know you mentioned in the UK, things are a bit more contentious than here in the States. But is that something that you’ve seen as well?

Rori: I’ve definitely seen a lot of that backlash toward trans women wanting to be in women’s spaces. That’s actually happened to friends of mine in Los Angeles, who are comedians who went into a women’s-only standup space, and were not well received. So I’ve definitely seen that, where… and honestly, it’s usually cis white feminists who push back on this idea of trans women entering their spaces. They think that it’s a violation; I’ve seen that mentality come across quite a lot. Quite a lot. I’ve also seen it just passively directed at me, throughout my life, so it’s definitely real. It’s a little disconcerting because from my perspective, we need to be creating spaces that are fully inclusive, and making them completely focused on the uterus is really backwards.

Eric: I mean, it’s all a commentary against cis male toxic masculinity, right?

Rori: Right, and it tries to lump trans women in with that, even though we’re not men.

Eric: No. Exactly.

Andrew: So I was really expecting an apology from J.K. Rowling because the backlash was so huge, unlike ever before. And I mean, this was getting coverage everywhere. And this is typically what you see happen: The person who has gotten themself in deep trouble decides to apologize. And I thought that since even if J.K. Rowling didn’t want to apologize and the apology wasn’t authentic, I thought team J.K. Rowling would talk her into it…

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: … just from business perspective, because we’re talking about buying things now going forward. I think this hurts the theme parks. I think it hurts the play. This is awful for the play that’s putting on this nightly show. [laughs] I think it’s also hurtful to the movies and people’s interest in continuing to watch them. So I thought we would at least get a fake apology, but we did not even get that. And I think J.K. Rowling just does not care. It’s sad because she’s hurting people, and I think she knows she’s hurting people now, and she’s still not apologizing. That’s crazy.

Micah: What do you think is worse, though? Is not saying anything after making this comment worse, or is an apology worse?

Andrew: That she doesn’t mean?

Micah: Right.

Rori: Yeah, if we got an apology, it would definitely be a PR thing. It wouldn’t be an actual apology. So I don’t think that it would be received well by the trans community, to be honest.

Eric: But not even Warner Bros., not even several other people that she’s working with are issuing statements saying “I disagree with this.” I mean, a lot of the…

Rori: Oh yeah, I’ve been paying attention to even Harry Potter cast members to see what they’re saying.

Eric: See, Emma Watson…

Rori: I was very impressed with Emma Watson, but we need to hear from a few people.

Eric: Yeah, Emma Watson had a huge thing. So has Emma released a statement?

Andrew and Rori:: No.

Rori: Just has in the past supported trans people.

Eric: I mean, that’s the thing, is I want to see the Emma Watson rebuke of J.K. Rowling’s latest… or I just want to know that Emma called Jo and said, “Hey, Jo, not cool.” Because people… what Rori said, I think, is really important. How can you continue to support J.K. Rowling and call yourself an ally to LGBT people?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: I think that’s a question I struggle with.

Rori: I mean, me too, just as a trans person, because I’m not sure… I certainly can’t judge people for continuing to go enjoy these movies or books or whatever, when I’m still going to, in some way, engage in this content because I refuse to have it taken away from me.

Andrew: Yeah. So GLAAD said they reached out to J.K. Rowling’s people and offered to sit down with J.K. Rowling to educate her, and GLAAD said that representatives turned them down.

Laura: Ugh.

[Eric hisses]

Andrew: And not just ignore them, turned them down. And that is pretty shocking. Eric, you mentioned Emma. I think what has to happen… you said Emma needs to call her. I think that is exactly what needs to happen. Who could possibly change J.K. Rowling’s mind and educate her? She doesn’t want to listen to GLAAD. She doesn’t want to listen to Twitter. So somebody who is very well versed on this topic, who she knows, who she trusts… I think Emma is the perfect person. And maybe that has happened.

Rori: Actually, I would love to take this time to actually note that as a trans person, I have very limited platform and voice here. Even though this is something that affects my community and not yours, you guys have more power than I do as cis people, as cis allies, to benefit the trans community. And honestly, that’s what we need right now, is we need you guys to be doing this podcast.

Eric: That’s exactly it. Well, and that’s the thing about Emma; she’s still a straight presenting cis white female…

Rori: Yep.

Eric: … who would be correcting Jo on her beliefs. Because you know that Jo is intolerant enough that she wouldn’t listen to a trans woman on the subject, or a trans man. Jackson Bird wrote a wonderful article for the New York Times following this called “Harry Potter Helped Me Come Out as Trans, but J.K. Rowling Disappointed Me.” Huge, right? And these are the kinds of things… and in his article, Jack calls for J.K. Rowling to, like, “Hey, come talk to us. We really want to have a discussion.” And you just get the sense that it’s not going to happen. I mean, I did not expect to end 2019 with Chick-Fil-A up and J.K. Rowling down.

Andrew: Right, yeah. [laughs]

Eric: I did not expect that to be the last blunder of the year.

Andrew: And honestly, we put out that Decade in Review episode after this happened, and I just felt really crappy putting that out. Here we are celebrating the decade, and we talk about J.K. Rowling making some really nice comments and all that when the movie series ended. I was embarrassed to be a Harry Potter fan that week.

Rori: I mean, but who could predict that?

Andrew: I know.

Rori: I mean, our community definitely knew that something like this was coming. We didn’t know that it was going to be this blatant.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: But it definitely wasn’t… I don’t think anybody was expecting her to come out this hard, this firmly, in favor of TERFism.

Laura: And Rori, we’ve been talking a lot about the impact this has. You’ve also mentioned that as cis people, we have the platform to be able to confront people like J.K. Rowling about things like this. And I’m curious, from your perspective – because I think everybody would have a different take on this – but in your estimation, is there actually anything J.K. Rowling could do to regain trust?

Rori: I think that there’s a certain part of the community that she’s absolutely cut off forever. There’s some people who will just not trust an apology from her. I think I would have a hard time trusting her apology. But it would really depend on the nature of it; it would depend on how it was issued. Her words would be really important, because we’re dealing with a writer; she can seem sincere. So I mean, it’s actually really hard to say at this point. I don’t know if I would be able to take her seriously. Depending on her tone, just because this is such a history, that one apology wouldn’t actually be enough, I think. I think that it would take quite a lot of action on her part for the trans community, doing action within our community, to fix this. This is going to take some work on her part, or she’s just going to end up being lumped as a TERF for the rest of her life.

Andrew: I’m also thinking she’s just hoping in this 24-hour news cycle that we’re all just going to forget about it, but I don’t think we are. For the next few decades we’re just going to see J.K. Rowling from time to time pop up with some batshit political view on her Twitter account, and then we’re going to be like, “Oh, there goes Grandma again, losing her mind.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Anyway, what else is going on today?” I really think that’s what’s going to happen now.

Rori: And honestly, I think that’s the best case scenario for the fandom at this point, is just to cut the author off.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: I will continue to enjoy the stories that are produced, and it’s going to happen for decades to come. But I said earlier, I think now I am ignoring J.K. Rowling.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I don’t even…

Rori: Certainly not following her on Twitter.

Laura: Yeah. I actually have never followed her on Twitter.

Andrew: Oh, really?

Micah: Oh, I thought I started that trend.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, this was a happy coincidence for me. And it just so happened December 19 was my birthday, and I woke up to the Internet blowing up about this tweet, and I was like, “Jesus Christ, J.K. Rowling. What are you doing? Stop.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, we posted on MuggleCast the “Happy Birthday, Laura” post and then an hour later had to completely…

Andrew: “We stand with the trans community.”

Eric: Yeah, oh my God.

Rori: Well, honestly, I have to say that you guys posting stuff like that has been super appreciated because it lets me know, it lets the trans community know, where you stand immediately. I got on Twitter because of this, and I’ve only followed people after going through their profile and seeing that they commented something against J.K. Rowling before following them.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Nice.

Rori: In the Potter community, I want to see you make a stand one way or the other, so I know where you’re at.

Eric: That’s what J.K. Rowling taught us, right? I mean, make a stand, stand up for what you believe, be yourself…

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Absolutely.

Eric: That’s why in our tweet, we said, “You are valid.” J.K. Rowling was trying to invalidate an entire swath of oppressed people and marginalized individuals in a global community. And that, it’s unforgivable.

Andrew: And in this fandom, we’ve all got each other’s backs. We all are there for each other. We accept everybody. And that’s why this is such a problem, J.K. Rowling’s tweet. I came out to only Harry Potter friends, people I met through the fandom, in those early years. If I didn’t have the Harry Potter fandom, I don’t know how on earth I would have come out. I didn’t know any other gay people or gay allies in the late 2000s, the early 2000s, I guess I should say. The Harry Potter fandom was there for me, and nobody judged me, and that meant everything. Because when you’re first coming out, you need to put people on your team, so to speak. People on your side, so you can say, “Oh, okay, maybe now it’s time to come out to my parents, because I have enough people on the good team, on the people I’ve already come out to, so they’ve got my back if things were to go wrong.” You need those allies, and the Harry Potter fandom is just one big group of allies. And so for the leader, the creator of that fandom, to come out and be so transphobic and so blatant with it and just decide to tweet about it in the first place, it’s like, “Whoa.”

Rori: Well, and it’s so interesting to look back on that community that formed in the early days of Harry Potter that was so queer-friendly. It was actually really an amazing thing at the time, because like you, I didn’t have anything else like that.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: And it’s actually really poetic to think back on the fact that J.K. Rowling created her own detractors.

Andrew: [laughs] Right. You made us this way, J.K. Rowling!

Rori: And that’s actually one of the things that you look back, and like, “Oh my gosh, how much of that was just calculated because she wanted to have a fun message, a nice message in her stories? And how much of that was real?”

Andrew: Right.

Rori: It’s hard to parse out now.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Hypocrisy is not a good look on anybody, and we don’t need more of it in this world.

Andrew: All right, anything else we want to address here? Or Rori, anything else you want to say?

Rori: I just want to say this is super nostalgic, coming back on the show after… I was a teenager living in my mom’s house when I was on this show last time.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, man. Do you remember what episode that was?

Rori: I have no idea.

Andrew: I’m searching now.

Rori: I know that it was at a point when you guys were just going through the books and reviewing them chapter by chapter.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Hey, that’s what we’re doing now.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: We’re still doing that.

Andrew: It was Episode 96 you were on, titled “More Shows, More Problems.”

Rori: [laughs] Nice.

Andrew: More tweets, more problems. That’s the title of this episode. [laughs]

Eric: Ugh. True.

Rori: And of a note, my old name is on that episode.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: So it’s available, but don’t go spreading it, folks.

Andrew: Got it.

Rori: But if you aren’t curious, it’s there. It was a whole meme.

Andrew: [laughs] If people want to learn more about trans people, or I don’t know, the LGBT community, are there any good resources you would recommend for further reading?

Rori: Yes, my favorite resource on the Internet is TransStudent.org, and they have a really wonderful visual representation of gender, sex, sexual orientation; what the differences are. Similar to if you’ve ever seen the Genderbread Man, this is the Gender Unicorn.

Andrew: [gasps] Yes.

Rori: And it is a wonderfully designed piece that helps people understand these complexities.

Andrew: This is great. Because gender is on a spectrum; it’s not binary. And the Gender Unicorn teaches you that, and the Gender Unicorn is so cute.

Rori: And that’s the thing that a lot of people don’t realize, that sex is different, gender is different, sexual orientation… these are all very separate entities that come together, and they mesh together, but they don’t necessarily feed off each other.

Andrew: Yeah. And you also wrote a piece on Medium; we’ll include a link to that in the show notes. It’s titled, “This Is Not a Drill: It’s Time to Cancel J.K. Rowling.” And there’s a whole discussion to be said about cancel culture, and I know you are typically not for cancel culture, but why did you say that? Why did you say she needs to be canceled?

Rori: Honestly, it’s because I woke up that morning and rolled over to “J.K. Rowling tweets…” and I was angry. And I wrote that piece out, and it was definitely a very honest, emotive, just anger that I put to the page. And there’s a little more nuance to my stance; I haven’t included in that piece that I’m not going to judge people for continuing to engage in this universe. I’m not actually telling people “You have to cancel J.K. Rowling or you’re not an ally. You suck.” That’s not the message I’m trying to actually portray, but that is kind of how people are reading that piece. I’m not editing it because I think that it is valid in its own right, and I think that it creates a really good discussion around cancel culture, and who we should be canceling and who we shouldn’t. Should we be canceling a teenage YouTuber? Or should we be canceling a 50-year-old white woman who is abusing her platform?

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: So yeah, that piece has actually generated more interest than I expected it to. It didn’t get picked up by Medium, but it has been shared in a lot of Antifa spaces, so it’s making its rounds. And I am happy with that. Because I think that even though I hardline the position that I do agree with, but I think it’s a little over the top, I think that it creates a really, really healthy discussion around cancel culture, around who should be canceled, around what we’re actually allowing our public figures to be doing without recourse.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, so we will include a link to that in the show notes, like I said, if anybody wants to read it. Okay, Rori, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate your insight and your time.

Laura: Yes.

Rori: Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you guys still doing this. How many years have you been doing this?

Andrew: This will be your 15th year.

Rori: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah, I know, right? [laughs]

Rori: That is nuts.

Andrew: Yeah. But yeah, it’s been great to talk to you again, too, after all these years. Under unfortunate circumstances, but…

Rori: I’m sure, yeah, there hopefully will be a better time to have me on in the future. But for now, this is where I need to be.

Andrew: “Can you believe J.K. Rowling’s perfect apology? Wow, she did it!”

[Everyone laughs]

Rori: I would love to be on for that episode.

Andrew: If she apologizes, we’ll definitely have you back on because I want to know how you interpreted it, so we’ll see.

Rori: Oh, yeah, I can’t wait to analyze that non-apology.

Andrew: [laughs] We’ll be analyzing it like it’s a Harry Potter book.