Transcript #671

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #671, MuggleCast Live at LeakyCon 2024!


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Eric Scull: We’re live at LeakyCon 2024! This is MuggleCast!

[Audience cheers]

Eric: Welcome, welcome, everybody. I am Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Eric: And we are here to celebrate 19 years of MuggleCast, which is wild.

Micah: Choo-choo.

Eric: [laughs] I’m so glad you said that. I actually have a quick recording that’s canned, just in case you would refuse to say, “Choo-choo.”

Micah: Oh. Well, play it anyway.

Eric: Hang on.

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

Eric: It’s actually kind of fun to just keep playing it. We’re going to make it our phone text alert too. But yes, so we’re really, really happy to be here. Is everybody having a good con so far?

[Audience cheers]

Eric: Fantastic. That’s really awesome. We are too. We’ve had some good panels; we have two more things tomorrow, which is very exciting, but most of all, we’re just happy for everyone that’s been here. We had our meetup yesterday, which I think went really lovely, and we’re just really excited to be here and celebrating and still being able to do this after all this time.

Micah: 19 years is a long time.

Eric: But this is far from an epilogue. We will not be ending today, which is very exciting, very exciting news. So yeah, we definitely will actually be talking about the Deathly Hallows epilogue as kind of… it’s a little break from our usual Chapter by Chapters, going through Goblet of Fire, but we definitely wanted to make it a big part of today’s discussion, as well as some really cool games and fun segments. So Micah, do you have any reflective thoughts on the 19 years and what MuggleCast, what doing the show, has meant to you?

Micah: I know I said it earlier, but it’s really hard to believe that it’s been two decades of doing podcasting, and I know at LeakyCon last year, we talked a lot about just how old we are, but I still think we’re better than ever. We’ve aged well.

Eric: Like a wine. Like elf-made wine.

Micah: Yeah, and I think, too, it’s the friendships that we’ve created along the way, the people here that many of whom we know are listeners, and it’s just been a really great experience.

Eric: Yeah, no, I completely agree. And thinking about when we started out, we were all really, really young, and the sound quality wasn’t as great and everything, and the idea that we’ve continued to reinvent and grow and also grow with an audience, and go from talking about the books before we knew how they would end, to talking about the books when they had ended but when the hype was still really huge, to now we’re also adults offering fresh perspective on Harry Potter. The show has gone through entire phases. We’ve been doing this long enough to continue to reinvent and be able to identify entire sections and everything, and for anybody who… people tell us, “We went back and listened to the whole catalog,” you don’t have to do that. Also, we’re very sorry; the audio quality of those early episodes was abysmal, but we did what we could with Skype and Audacity and the Plantronics headsets that keep getting a shout-out.


Main Discussion: The Deathly Hallows epilogue


Eric: But yeah, we are going to be talking about the epilogue discussion today. But before we do that, we need seven volunteers from the audience, and if you want to be a volunteer, simply come on up to the microphone that’s here right in the center of the room, if you like. And I think there are fewer than seven hands, so everybody can just walk up. The first seven people.

Micah: I love how they volunteer as tribute. They have no idea what they’re about to do.

Eric: They have no idea. I don’t know, I don’t know; for listeners of the show, this may be pretty clear.

Micah: We need one more person.

Eric: We do. We got a seventh… okay, all right.

Audience member 1: It’s the seven-word summary!

Eric: We are talking, of course, about the epilogue that follows Deathly Hallows, where we meet up with Hermione, Ron, and Harry 19 years later on the platform. It’s only seven pages long, and we would like our new volunteers – fresh-faced, smiling – to complete our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Audience member 1: Together…

Audience member 2: … the…

Audience member 3: … trio…

Audience member 4: … arrive…

Audience member 5: … at…

Audience member 6: Is King’s Cross one word or two?

Eric: It’s one.

Audience member 6: … King’s Cross…

Audience member 7: … Station.

Eric: King’s Cross Station!

[Audience applauds]

Eric: Yes, so “Together we arrive at King’s Cross Station.” Or the trio, the trio, sorry. “Together, the trio arrive at King’s Cross Station.” Extremely accurate summary, and that is about all that happens, right, Micah?

Micah: Yeah, there’s a little bit of editing that goes on sometimes.

Eric: Yeah, some relations were…

Micah: Sometimes we’re on it, and sometimes it’s like, “Why did we ever invent this segment to begin with?”

Eric: Yeah, it’s designed to trip our… it’s actually designed to make ourselves look less good, I think.

Micah: Yes.

Eric: I often suspect Andrew is… because after you’ve been doing this the whole time, it’s fun to trip ourselves up and see if we can do it. It’s really hard, right? Thanks to all the volunteers, by the way, who did that.

Micah: Good job.

Eric: It’s not as easy as it looks, maybe?

[Audience applauds]

Eric: So I wanted to say – because we all read the epilogue when it was first published in 2007, which was 17 years ago, and we reread it earlier today – and I want to ask how we feel about it now, if we remember how we felt about it then versus now. Also, please welcome to the stage our wonderful social media manager, Chloé Laverson!

[Audience cheers]

Eric: Hi, Chloé.

Chloé Laverson: Hi, everyone. I’m sorry, I just got a little sick, so…

Eric: Stage fright.

Chloé: Yeah, stage fright. I’m so nervous just being around the two of you.

Eric: [laughs] That’s the right answer. Welcome back. Micah, what are your thoughts now, having just read the epilogue after a long time?

Micah: I enjoyed it, but I know that there’s a bit of controversy, right, around the epilogue?

Eric: There was. When it came out, as I recall, it was very divisive. Some people questioned whether an epilogue should be there at all. Others, I think, like myself, maybe saw it as a way for the author to… I was like, “She just wrote seven whole books that we loved, and this little thing that we didn’t really love, but it’s her way of saying goodbye to the characters. We can give her that.”

Chloé: I don’t think it should have been written. I don’t think the epilogue should exist.

Eric: Hot take!

Chloé: Chloé will always bring hot takes; y’all know if you listen. But I just think that she should have left it open for all of us. It is too perfect; everyone’s paired up. I’m sorry, let me just say one thing: Ron would 100% be a bachelor still at this time. He needs to grow a little bit. I’m serious. And if he marries Hermione, it’s her second marriage.

[Everyone laughs]

Chloé: No, I’m not kidding. It’s crazy that they all would just perfectly live happy ever after, after all that they’ve been through, the trauma that they experienced and this entire wizarding war, and then it’s just like, “Yeah,” and everything’s so good and so perfect. And I get that. It’s almost like, “Oh, yay, they all get to live out a happily ever after,” but it just feels almost clipped. So I think other people felt that way too.

Eric: Don’t they deserve a happily ever after? After all they’ve been through?

Chloé: I agree with you, but I think it should have been left open for us to decide what was their happily ever after.

Eric: Well, that is the criticism I remember about the epilogue when it first aired, was that for fanfiction writers, it was like a big middle finger. It was literally “However you thought -” or any reader, really “- how you thought these characters might be paired up differently, here’s the answer to all of them. Here’s the answer to all the relationships. There’s nothing left up to interpretation. And if you’re a fanfic writer who happens to ship Hermione with literally anybody else, sorry. And also, here’s what all our awful kids’ names are.”

[Chloé laughs]

Eric: The only thing I disliked about it was the kids’ names. I’m sure, Micah, you probably agree.

Micah: Well, so it’s interesting. If the book had ended on the previous chapter, I think… well, I’m curious to ask, do people feel like it would have been good enough resolution, Harry talking with portrait Dumbledore about the resolution of the Deathly Hallows? Would that have been sufficient to close out the entire series?

Chloé: I see nods, but “Woo” or something.

Eric: Actually, show of hands: Who thinks that the epilogue is okay and it’s good that it’s in there?

Chloé: Okay.

Eric: And that’s a fair amount of people, and I don’t necessarily feel one way or the other, but who thinks that it actually either should be changed in a pretty big way or not in the book at all?

Micah: Wow.

Eric: Changed, okay.

Chloé: They’re like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Changed or not in there?”

Micah: So I looked it up; the last line, then, would have been – if it ended with the previous chapter – Harry speaking and saying, “I’ve had enough trouble for a lifetime,” which I feel is pretty fair.

Eric: That’s kind of good. That’s better than “All was well,” in a way.

Chloé: I do love the “All was well” motif; I’m not going to lie. That’s really beautiful, so I will give the epilogue that for sure. It just felt unnecessary. And honestly, can I…? Maybe another hot take, of course. It feels like almost a fanfic. You know what I mean? She’s like, “And everyone got married,” and the names are crazy… it really feels like a fanfic. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, there’s that affect?

Chloé: Yeah, I think so. It feels like someone who’s 14 and just read the books and is like, “Okay, now I’m going to name the kids of all the main characters.” [laughs]

Eric: You know what’s funny? It’s because for the longest time, Rowling said she had actually written the final chapter first and stored it in a safe before all the rest, so maybe she was much younger and…

Chloé: But is “19 years later” the final chapter? Or is it what you just said, is it the last…?

Micah: I think it was the epilogue.

Chloé: It was the epilogue that she wrote?

Eric: I think it was the epilogue. But there was also controversy because it didn’t end on “scar”; does everybody remember this? There was an early interview where she said, “I’ve already written the final chapter. Also, I’ve already known what the final sentence would be,” and somehow it came out that the last word would be “scar.” We all get Deathly Hallows at midnight on July whatever, 2007, and then the last word wasn’t “scar,” it was “well.” And I was like, “Well…”

[Chloé laughs]

Eric: However, upon being asked, the author did say that I believe the sentence would have been “Only those who loved Harry could make out the faint outline on his forehead of a distinct lightning bolt scar,” which is really freaking awesome, actually!

Chloé: It is. It is really cool.

Eric: It’s a little bit of magic.

Chloé: It’s beautiful. I do think that… I love that we think that the scar is still really prominent by the end, because it’s always a reminder, and I think that they need a reminder in the wizarding world. They’ve had two of these wars; let’s not have a third.

Eric: Yeah, I like that a lot.

Micah: So the names, though.

[Everyone laughs]

Chloé: Let’s talk about it.

Micah: For somebody who was so good naming characters, what happened?

Chloé: That’s true. That’s so real.

Eric: Yeah, actually, that credit is due before the epilogue. Yeah, I agree.

Chloé: I have strong feelings, and I know that everyone has talked these names to death. I know all of you have had this conversation with your friends and been like, “Are you kidding me? Did she really not name one kid Hagrid?” And I agree with you; I have… why did she name Harry’s two…? Well, he has three kids; two of them are named after a couple, which is so weird to me. I don’t know if anyone else feels…

Eric: So Lily and James are siblings.

Chloé: They’re siblings in this gen, but they’re married in the Marauders? That feels icky to me. It feels a little weird. Also, Al is his nickname in the epilogue. Albus. Can you imagine in 2017 having your name, your nickname, be Al, and going to school?

Eric: Maybe it was a prediction that just went awry. She thought Al was coming back.

[Chloé laughs]

Eric: “By 2017, this will be the biggest name on the… oh,” and then it never happened.

Chloé: Honestly, I’m not surprised Cursed Child happened, because if my name was Al, I would definitely be upset.

[Eric laughs]

Chloé: And Scorpius too. His parents are basically setting himself up to be evil. Thank God he doesn’t turn out to be. But Scorpius? Please.

Eric: It’s a bit strange. It just felt… see, here’s the problem with writing any of this, is we weren’t familiar with these characters, so it’s the snippet you get of them. And if it’s like, “What’s in a name?” It seemed that there was, in fact, more of this idea of naming your kid after your parent, to honor your parent. But again, if Snape gets a name reference…

Micah: The guy that creeped on your grandma.

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: Are you kidding? Crazy. Oh, and then…

Eric: Well, then where’s the Hagrid, though?

Chloé: Well, then you name your other kid after said Grandma. That’s wild.

Eric: Oh, yeah!

Chloé: James, Lily, and Snape are all represented in siblings. It’s like, what is that?

Eric: And they were all kind of romantically entangled.

Chloé: Funky, man.

Eric: The more I think about this, the less… oh, God.

Chloé: Yeah, it’s diabolical is what it is. [laughs]

Eric: But we also learn about other characters, right? We learn about Draco’s kid is there. We learn about… Teddy and Victoire show up.

Chloé: So one thing that I really wish we could change is I want to know more about Teddy. And I do think that what’s special about the epilogue is that we do get names, which has made it so fanfic writers can take these characters and go crazy with them.

Eric: That’s true enough.

Chloé: But I will say, I think the names are the reason that Marauders are more popular to write fanfic than third gen.

Eric: Oh, wow.

Chloé: Genuinely. I think that maybe if their names were different, people would be more interested in writing about them. [laughs] But I want to know more about Teddy. I want to know… all we know is that he’s snogging Victoire. That’s all we know about him. That’s all we get.

Eric: And we kind of worked out that he’s graduated from Hogwarts by that point, right? Because if he was just born, and this is 19 years…

Chloé: Yeah, so the age difference is… uh-oh.

Micah: Noticeable.

Chloé: Yeah, it’s a little Viktor/Hermione situation. [laughs] But I want to know if Teddy is training to be an Auror and following in his mom’s footsteps, or… I want more than, “Oh, he’s making out with his girlfriend in the corner,” which is weird. You pointed that out earlier. [laughs]

Micah: It was a little strange for that to be included, forced in there.

Chloé: Yeah, “By the way, they’re making out, just so you know.” That’s a lot.

Eric: The things that I like about the epilogue… and I can kind of see where Harry is coming from with Albus Severus, right? It’s the dichotomy of man. You have Albus Dumbledore, great man, and then you have Severus, who was deeply flawed but ultimately saved the world.

Chloé: Are we saying that Albus Dumbledore is not deeply flawed? Are you taking the Andrew Sims approach today? [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God! I think there’s a spell on these individual mics.

Chloé: For real. They’re both flawed, and it honestly kind of makes me sad, in a way, that one person got Albus Severus, because first of all, what a weight to carry. And then JKR wrote Cursed Child and made him also super flawed and super complicated as a character.

Eric: I think she “authorized” the story.

Chloé: Okay, well, but whatever it is, these names for some reason make you super complicated as a human.

Eric: Yeah, why give a kid that much baggage?

Chloé: Exactly.

Micah: So I’d heard this theory about Albus Severus specifically because then it gives him the initials A.S.P., asp, which is a snake, and he ends up getting Sorted into Slytherin.

Chloé: Ohh.

Eric: Foreshadowing.

Chloé: Do you think that she knew when she wrote this – apparently, before the entire series – that she was also going to put…? Well, I guess she did.

Eric: Well, I wouldn’t hold her to every word was the same in 1991.

Chloé: [laughs] Right, it clearly changed.

Eric: No, and that’s not how writing works. There’s no reason why an editor wouldn’t… because you wouldn’t get it fully edited in 1991. So I think some things obviously organically changed, but the general layout and in terms of it… I don’t know. I did see it at the time, because I was surrounded by a bunch of people who were writing fanfic, as a giant “F you” to people, as like, “Don’t touch my canon. Here’s how they all end up. Here’s how they pair. And if you write a fic that’s different, you’re not canon compliant.”

Chloé: Not going to lie to you, if I reread Deathly Hallows – and I will when y’all eventually get to it – I’m not going to read the epilogue and I’m going to read a Dramione fic that I prefer as my end. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, all right.

Chloé: And I encourage all of you to pick a fic that you prefer as the ending to the story.

Eric: Wow. Yeah, I kind of still feel, in spite of everything, the same, where it’s like, “Okay.” And I have many, many problems with Deathly Hallows, but I think the epilogue is… eh, let’s give her that. If it’s an emotional conclusion, if that’s what she cried writing, or like to think… however, I don’t necessarily like the Teddy Lupin… the series had to end on an orphan.

Chloé: Oh, lord.

Eric: I think that’s just an excuse to be completely…

Chloé: Well, you said that it closed canon off, and that was a common, I guess, critique of the epilogue. But to me, that was the only opening, or that was the solid opening. Her ending with Teddy made me feel like she might write about Teddy, and that gave… because yeah, I mean, she loves her orphans. So I was thinking maybe…

Eric: That could be cool. I hope he has a happy life.

Chloé: There’s incredible fanfics about Teddy Lupin, though, so I encourage everyone to check them out.

Eric: Yeah, and I think that’s really something that we’ve learned; why the fandom is still able to exist and why the podcast is still able to exist 19 years later is that people are still actively engaging with the source material, and whether that’s through new fanfic, whether it’s through listening to a couple of geezers on a podcast that have been doing this since before the last book…

Chloé and Micah: Speak for yourself.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Anyway. Sorry, a couple young’uns on a podcast. But yeah, I’ve been MuggleCasting more than half my life, which is crazy.

Chloé: That is crazy.

Eric: It’s really crazy.

Chloé: You’ve definitely been MuggleCasting most of my life.

Micah: Wow.

Eric: I know; last year we did this whole thing, “Is MuggleCast older than ____?” and it was like, older than the iPhone, older than…

Chloé: Not older than me.

Eric: No, but only just.

Chloé: But only by a few years. [laughs]

Eric: Preschool Chloé.

Chloé: Yeah. But you know what? It’s so beautiful that y’all have been able to come up with new things, and you always keep it interesting.

Eric: Were there any other thoughts on the epilogue before we move on to our first game segment? I think it’ll be one of those continually divisive things where it’s like, “Oh, what’s this about?”

Chloé: Oh, Harry should have ended up with Luna. [laughs]

Eric: You would say that with those Spectrespecs on.

Chloé: No, it’s not… well, I think I should have ended up with Professor Longbottom, if I’m picking who I’m ending up with.

Eric: Oh, okay, okay.

Chloé: But I think that Harry and Luna just had such a beautiful connection throughout the books that I honestly think they would have had such a beautiful marriage. But that’s the only small thing I would change. Minor detail. No big thing.

Eric: “Let’s change the epilogue so it suits me specifically.”

Chloé: Isn’t that what fanfic is? [laughs]

Eric: Yes, and you know what? More power to the people who do, because it’s more than I could do.


“What if?”


Eric: We actually have a fourth guest that we have not yet introduced to the show. Everybody, please give a warm Hogwarts welcome to… the Hogwarts Sorting Hat!

[Audience applauds]

Chloé: I honestly had no idea where you were going with that. I was like, “Wait, you didn’t tell us.”

Micah: I thought it was going to be Melissa, John, or Frak.

[Eric laughs]

Chloé: Me too. I was so ready.

Eric: [imitating the Sorting Hat] “Hello, everyone.”

Chloé: Lovingly Sortie.

Eric: Yeah, Sortie! Sortie is what we call him. So the Sorting Hat is here, and for those of you who attended our MuggleCast meetup…

Chloé: We love you and we think you’re the best.

Eric: … you may know what this is going to be, but we actually have suggestions for our “What if?” segment that was submitted by all of our listeners, and we have not laid eyes on them before. They’re alternative questions, “What would have happened?” We theorize how the series would be different with a different ending, or with one particular detail changed. One example I will give – and we’re going to start with that one, actually, before digging into our pal the hat – is “What would happen in Half-Blood Prince if Harry had drank the potion in the cave other than Dumbledore?”

Chloé: Oh my God. He doesn’t need any more trauma. Oh my goodness.

Eric: [laughs] Because Dumbledore very famously was like, “This must be me; nothing you do…” He didn’t let Harry do anything in the cave, because he was bearing the weight.

Chloé: It didn’t really have to be him, though.

Eric: Right.

Chloé: It could have been Harry.

Eric: We also didn’t know exactly what it did.

Chloé: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: I think the common conjecture now is that it forced Dumbledore to relive some of the worst moments of his life, such as when he couldn’t protect or save his sister.

Chloé: I almost think it might have been a better play – a horrifying play, but almost better – if Harry drank it, because Dumbledore probably had better capabilities to get them out of there, and also knew all the secrets of the cave and just didn’t tell Harry ahead of time. Why couldn’t Dumbledore have been like, “Hey, fire is going to fight these Inferi that are in the lake”?

Micah: But maybe then there wouldn’t have been any Inferi, because Dumbledore would have…

Eric: Known not to disturb the water?

Chloé: Right, exactly. That’s what I’m saying.

Eric: Oh, but you had to because of the… to refill the potion.

Micah: No.

Chloé: Well, no, because he was trying to hydrate Dumbledore, so he was getting water from the lake and it was disappearing.

Eric: Oh, so he could’ve hydrated…?

Chloé: No, it really probably should have been Harry, but Dumbledore, I guess his thought process was he didn’t want to torture Harry any more.

Micah: Dumbledore was like 150; he’s probably…

Chloé: He’s like, “I’m on the way out, babes. All good; I can do it.” Well, that was probably his reasoning. He’s old, decrepit, ready to go.

[Audience laughs]

Eric: I think, too, it did substantially weaken Dumbledore, to the point where I think I can see the argument where would the events of the lightning-struck tower have happened differently?

Chloé: Probably, because he would have been all there. He was so weak.

Eric: But at the same time, he was ready to go.

Chloé: He planned his death; that’s the other thing.

Eric: It did need to be Snape that killed him. So I guess regardless, Dumbledore would have died in the next chapter.

Chloé: And Harry wouldn’t. Harry this way didn’t have to relive his trauma, but he also got traumatized watching Dumbledore. There’s no winning no matter what.

Eric: I completely agree. So let’s start pulling from our friend the hat. Micah, you can actually go first on the left. What other “What ifs?”

Micah: So am I asking the two of you, then?

Eric: Well, no, you’re also participating.

Micah: Oh.

Eric: You might have the only answer.

Chloé: You might be smarter than us. Yeah, probably.

Micah: So “What if Dudley hadn’t eaten the Ton-Tongue Toffee…” tongue twisted me…

[Chloé laughs]

Micah: “… until after Arthur and the other Weasleys had left Privet Drive?”

[Audience laughs]

Eric: Uh, dead.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: We just covered this on Goblet of Fire during our episode, but Arthur Weasley was put in an impossible situation by his sons, who… they’re already predisposed to distrust wizards, and now you’ve created this incident where you again have put Dudley in harm’s way.

Chloé: I think Fred and George are an Azkaban, if that’s the case.

Eric: Well, for murder!

Chloé: Or whatever juvenile version of that there is, because I mean, that is fully Muggle abuse. It was already, but that’s death. Yeah, he murdered a Muggle. They’re probably going to Azkaban, and Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes is never taking off, and that’s a bummer too.

Micah: But Fred would have lived.

Chloé: Oh. Whoa.

Eric: Is it living if you’re in Azkaban?

Chloé: Yeah, that’s a big question mark, definitely. Well, I wonder if they’re minors if they would have gotten less time? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe Fred would have lived. Well, but then, when they do the breakout in Azkaban, are we sure? [laughs]

Eric: Dudley would be gone.

Chloé: Yeah, Dudley is dead.

Eric: It’s one of Fred and George’s worst actions, and there’s a short list of them. But it’s real bad, because nobody else would be able to reverse the magic that it caused. So that was a really good question. Thank you to who submitted it.

Chloé: To suffocate via tongue.

Eric: It’s also one of the worst ways to die.

Chloé: Yeah, definitely.

Eric: Especially in fear, and with your loved ones right next to you but completely unable to help.

Micah: It’s like, Game of Thrones level.

Eric: Honestly, it’s very purple wedding.

Chloé: Well, that’s not a children’s book at that point. No children are reading that.

[Chloé and Eric laugh]

Eric: So Chloé, would you like to grab the next “What if?”

Chloé: I would. Also, shout-out to Meg for…

Eric: Vetting!

Chloé: … vetting all of these. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, and making sure they were all the same size paper, too, which is really cool.

Chloé: Oh, this is another Dursleys question. Okay, “What if the Dursleys gave Harry real love and supported him as a wizard?” Aww. Don’t we wish?

Eric: That would never happen.

[Everyone laughs]

Chloé: But if it did, I think that… ooh, this is maybe a really hot take. Would Harry be the savior of the wizarding world then? No. I think it would probably be Neville.

[Audience member cheers]

Chloé: I think Neville is the Chosen One if Harry gets real love.

Eric: I wonder if… so Harry’s abuse and neglect makes him the only candidate for the reason that he is the hero?

Chloé: Well, there’s obviously the prophecy, right? But I wonder if Harry goes to school and has less of a need to prove himself, less of a need for validation from others, and less of a need to find adventure and save everyone and everything, because he already knows that he can go home and get that validation and that love… I mean, Harry is so desperate to prove that he belongs, and I think if he had a place of belonging already, less you would need to prove that as much.

Eric: I really want that for Harry, actually, though.

Chloé: I really do too. I really do too. But he gets real love.

Eric: It’s nice to know that in an alternate version of the epilogue, Dudley would have been showing up at King’s Cross with his wizard child.

Chloé: Why was that taken out?

Eric: I don’t know. Because that child would’ve been named something crazy.

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: Probably Vernon, honestly.

Eric: Rowling looked at it and was like, “That’s one too many names. Cross it off. I’ll give them a bone. Anyone can name Dudley’s kid whatever they want.”

Chloé: I do love that headcanon, though, that Dudley Dursley has a magical child. Absolutely.

Eric: Yeah, that’s so cool. All right, here’s another “What if?” Shake it up, shake it up. Thank you, hat. This one: “What if Voldemort believed the prophecy to be about Neville, actually?” Okay, so there we have it.

Chloé: Wow. We did not set this up, by the way. [laughs]

Eric: No, we didn’t.

Chloé: We know they’re flowing together.

Eric: But again, that was kind of my question when you were talking about Harry receiving love: As far as I know, the prophecy was set to be on Harry after that first choice, which house does Voldemort go into? But if he believes it to be about Neville, it is questionable whether Lily and James would have survived the attack by Voldemort’s followers that incapacitated Frank and Alice, and whether there’s some future… if Harry would be the memory-addled child at Hogwarts due to the result of…

Chloé: And they just switch lives? Sort of switched at birth situation?

Micah: That’s a no win situation.

Chloé and Eric: Yeah.

Chloé: Also, Neville… and I’m going to be so honest. Neville is my boy. I said it earlier; I’d marry him. He comes to his own much later than Harry. Harry, if I’m so honest with you, already has a lot that Neville doesn’t in the first few books, so I imagine the events would go much differently. Would Voldemort get the Philosopher’s Stone? I’m not kidding. If I’m so honest, Neville isn’t quite as strong magically, and we know later, it’s because of his wand and a lot of other different reasons, but Neville is really nervous and a scared, anxious kid, and Harry Potter is a little stronger in the first books. A lot stronger.

Micah: Do we think Alice would have stepped in front of the spell?

Chloé: 100%.

Eric: Yes, and that’s the thing about that that I don’t like, is it all comes down to, what, Lily did something no mother ever did at all whatsoever in stepping in front of…?

Chloé: No, Alice would’ve 100%.

Eric: No, absolutely. That happened hundreds of times on a battlefield, clearly.

Chloé: I mean, none of us are parents, but I’m sure there’s moms in the audience that were like, “Yes. I would 100% save my child.”

Eric: And I think then there’s a reading where it’s like, because she was given a choice and she chose to…?

Micah: But maybe that’s the better question: Would she have been given the choice? Because wasn’t the whole reason why Lily was given the choice was because of Snape?

Chloé: Oh. Oh, god.

Eric: Well, here’s the next one.

[Chloé and Eric laugh]

Eric: Oh no! This is horrifying. “What if Luna had been killed in her mom’s accident and never went to Hogwarts? How would that have affected Harry’s story?” This one’s made for Chloé here.

Chloé: I think that Luna brought Harry… I think Luna low-key was Harry’s therapist. There needs to be therapists at Hogwarts. You know this, we know this.

Eric: Oh, God, so badly.

Chloé: But I think that Luna in the fifth and sixth book really give Harry some much, much needed therapy sessions, and she relates to him in a way that literally no one else can. No one else. And I think that without Luna there, Harry would have been felt much more alone in the fifth book, oh my God, and I think that he wouldn’t have felt as much solace. And Luna as well, she just, I think, is a comfort to him in a way that none of the other main characters are, so I don’t know. I think Harry would have a way worse time.

Eric: He would be less stable.

Chloé: Way less stable.

Eric: Less supported. And I love the way it’s so rich in the books; I mean, Luna being one of the best characters, but it’s so rich in the way that Harry at first is sort of repelled by Luna, like, “Who is this crazy?” And then he’s like, “Oh, she actually is… I’m relying on her emotionally.”

Chloé: He’s like, “Who is this crazy?” [laughs] “I need it.”

Eric: But also because she’s able to hear the voices beyond the veil, and he eventually finds a kindred spirit.

Chloé: Yeah, their crazies match. 100%, yeah.

Eric: [laughs] Who wants to do the next “What if?”

Micah: “What if we got a spinoff show about another wizarding school?” From the Quizzitch master himself.

Chloé: I was going to say, you’re literally sporting Beauxbatons. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, yes! Oui, oui, oui!

Chloé: Wow, very good.

Eric: [attempting a French accent] We need to hear about the Beauxbatons. We need to learn. What is Madame Maxime’s deal here?

Chloé: I’m not going to comment on the accent.

Eric: We need to know what it is.

Chloé: That’s very good, uh-huh.

Eric: Thank you. Merci.

Chloé: De rien.

Eric: Yes, I feel as though Ilvermorny is the – maybe for better or for worse – natural option for a spinoff at this point, because it’s the one that Warner Bros. and the production team have actually invested the most in, despite not… I expected we would get a shot of Ilvermorny, what it looks like, in one of the Fantastic Beasts movies.

Chloé: Still holding on for those last two.

Eric: After all, two of the core four – or what used to be the core four – went there for school! So I don’t know. But yeah, what if we got a spinoff series? I think it would be actually really good to see Mahoutokoro.

Chloé: I mean, I’m obviously biased and I want Beauxbatons, but I think that a spinoff of any of them would be cool.

Eric: I want to apologize for my accent, by the way.

Chloé: [in a French accent] It’s okay. I forgive you.

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: I’d want to see maybe Durmstrang.

Chloé: I was about to say, you totally give that vibe.

Micah: When Grindelwald was there.

Chloé and Eric: Ohh!

Eric: “Young Grindelwald Chronicles”!

Chloé: Wait, like, gay wizards. I love that.

Eric: Gay, dangerous, Dark wizards.

Chloé: Yeah. Gay, dangerous, Dark wizards, ooh. In the north too.

Eric: I can see that selling.

Chloé: That would be cool.

Eric: Wait, what about the north?

Chloé: Well, no, they’re in the cold. I don’t know. I feel like…

Eric: They need to snuggle up at night.

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: No, the… [laughs] “There’s only one bed!”

Eric: It gets really in that ship!

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: No, I feel like the aesthetic would be really cool of Durmstrang. I feel like you could totally be a professor at Durmstrang, like, cast in this spinoff.

Micah: Okay.

Chloé: Yeah?

Micah: All right.

Chloé: Okay.

Eric: Micah, you’re next. Oh…

Micah: That’s okay. I’ll go again.

Chloé: Just skip me again. It’s fine.

Micah: “What if the Dementors in Little Whinging had successfully performed the Dementor’s -“ poor Dudley “- Dementor’s Kiss on Dudley?”

[Eric laughs]

Chloé: Y’all are so dark. Dang.

Micah: Dead.

Chloé: Dudley is dead.

Eric: Dudley is worse than dead.

Chloé: Oh, yeah. Dudley’s soul is gone.

Eric: Here’s the thing, and this is one of the most alarming moments in the series, where it comes back to Dumbledore, I think. It really comes back to… that’s the weirdest thing about Mrs. Figg. We were so, so excited to learn about Arabella Figg, that she was referenced way back in the first book… the last time something that cool was put in that early in the series, it turned out to be Sirius.

[Chloé laughs]

Eric: And then… and you know I like…

Chloé: We know.

Eric: That guy’s pretty cool. And then it turned out to be a woman who’s a Squib, which is not a problem, except she was the only protector for Harry this whole time, where if anyone broke through the amazing spell that Dumbledore placed, the only one who could defend him is somebody who can’t even defend themselves against, say, instance, Dementor attack, or save Dudley’s life!

Chloé: But that’s only because Mundungus, though. Because Mundungus was gone. In theory, there was a patrol always there beyond Mrs. Figg that could help him. So I mean, if we’re honest, there’s two “What ifs,” right? If Mundungus hadn’t left, or if someone had been else had been on patrol, Dudley wouldn’t have died, or wouldn’t have had his soul leave his… whatever. You know.

Eric: Yeah, I just think that it might be better… Mundungus, everyone knew he was unreliable…

Chloé: Right, so he shouldn’t have been in the patrol in the first place.

Eric: Well, and if you get to the point where a Dementor gives you a kiss, you can’t really give that back. No take-backsies on Dementors’ Kisses.

Chloé: Well, no, what I’m saying, though, is…

Eric: He would’ve been able to cast a Patronus.

Chloé: Yeah, before. He would’ve…

Eric: He would have stepped up to the charge and just “Expecto Patronum!” This is the least likely Mundungus thing to ever do. But at the same time, yeah, I can see it. I think you lose Vernon and Petunia forever. Eventually they come over to maybe what they did to Harry was wrong, or whatever, whatever; that would never have happened if their prized son is murdered by wizards. Harry would not have been able to have their house as a refuge after that point.

Chloé: That’s so true.

Eric: They would have said, “Screw it.”

Chloé: [laughs] “Absolutely not,” yeah.

Eric: So it would have been a lot more precarious. And who knows? I mean, maybe the last two books would have been even worse for Harry.

Chloé: Y’all are really dark with these “What ifs?”

Eric: So we’ll do one more, and Chloé, you should do the honors.

Chloé: Hopefully I pick a happy one.

Micah: Just as long as it’s not about Dudley.

Chloé: That’s going to be a no; it’s not happy. Well, could be happy. “What if James’s love blocked Voldemort’s curse and Harry and Lily survived?” Well, then we wouldn’t have any… it would be Neville. [laughs]

Eric: We’d have a positive male, fatherly role model in the Harry Potter series.

Chloé: I think we already do in James, do we not? I mean, unfortunately, we didn’t get to see him as a father later on, but everything he did…

Eric: It’s questionable.

Chloé: What do you mean?

Eric: Well, no, think of all the other men – okay, Arthur Weasley – but so much of that feels broken. Harry could really honor his father’s memory in an important way. I’m not sure.

[sound in background]

Eric: Someone’s playing a horn.

Micah: That’s James.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, that’s James. He’s back to get us! Yeah, I am… if it was James’s love, I suppose it doesn’t matter in that Harry was able to find that he was loved, and that was…

Chloé: Well, I think it’s beautiful in a way that we don’t always place as much importance on a father’s love, just in society in general, and I think that’s beautiful in a way. I don’t think JKR would ever do it, but…

Eric: Well, and I think part of that motivation of that plot line of Harry Potter was as a result of Rowling’s own involvement with her mother.

Chloé: Well, yeah, and being a single mother too.

Eric: Yeah, so really can’t argue or find fault with that. But yeah, it would have maybe completed James’s arc slightly more, except he died protecting his family and his loved ones, and that’s pretty much the same thing.

Chloé: Yeah, I was about to say, that’s the same thing. [laughs]

Eric: That’s the same thing, yeah. He still died protecting his son. So whether it was James or Lily’s love that technically did it, you have basically the same book series?

Chloé: Well, no, because Lily is around…

Eric: Oh, Lily is around.

Chloé: … so he’s not with the Dursleys, he experiences real love, he grows up a wizard…

Eric: And then he never aspires to do anything, and he’s not that great.

Chloé: [laughs] Well, you could argue that Harry Potter is an average wizard in extraordinary circumstances, so without those circumstances, would he be just a regular old Hogwarts kid?

Eric: Fair enough.


Make the Connection


Eric: So we are now going to move on to an audience interactive segment closing out the show.

Chloé: Woo.

Eric: I’m going to see if I can intro this properly. M-m-m-m-make the c-c-c-connection!

Chloé: Solid.

Micah: That was really good.

Chloé: 10 out of 10. I wasn’t sure where that was going, but…

Eric: Oh, you’ve seen the document.

Chloé: No, no, no, I’ve seen the document. [laughs] I meant you.

Eric: Make the Connection. Okay, okay. So the way we play this game is actually it’s audience participation, so whoever has an idea, please come up to the mic at the center of the room. But we, your beloved panelists, are going to have to make the connection between Harry Potter and anything that you suggest that is not intrinsically Harry Potter-related. So it can be things like “Make a connection between Harry Potter and attending a meeting that could have just been an email”; “Make the connection between Harry Potter and hearing the ice cream truck rolling down your street.” It’s that sort of thing. And honestly, the zanier the better. We played this game in Chicago last year, and somebody referenced that Dave Matthews Band incident where the tour bus did the thing over the Chicago River…

Chloé: Yeah, Dave Matthews band over the Chicago River, and them turning the Chicago River green? Yeah, and hot chocolate.

Eric: There were a lot of really cool connections.

Chloé: Just get funky with it. Get crazy with it. We’ll try our best. [laughs]

Eric: We’ll try our best. We’re testing our skills more than we do our…

Chloé: Yeah, our improv.

Eric: Does anybody have any suggestions for making the connection? Thank you. Somebody is walking on up.

Chloé: Also, introduce yourself and say your House.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, let’s see where you’re from.

Audience member: Okay, I’m CJ Marie.

Chloé: Hi, CJ Marie.

Audience member: I’m a Gryffindor, and my make the connection is Travis Kelce on stage at the Taylor Swift concert and Harry Potter.

Chloé: Oh, this is me, boys. [laughs] Travis Kelce on stage at the era tour and Harry Potter.

Eric: Wait, what did he do with the eras tour on stage?

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: Okay, so he was… I’m sorry, I’m not keeping them up, I guess.

Eric: Context, context! He’s just there? He was just on the stage?

Chloé: So you know that they’re dating?

Eric: Yes.

Chloé: Okay, and that Travis Kelce is on the Chiefs?

Eric: He plays for the Chiefs. Okay.

Chloé: Yes, so Travis Kelce during one of the Eras Tours show in London, I believe, went on stage and performed with her and did her set with The Tortured Poets Department, which is her latest album, and there’s a few songs about him on it.

Eric: And so he did the whole…?

Chloé: No, he did a little makeup thing, and he carried her, and it was very cute.

Eric: Oh, so he didn’t sing.

Chloé: No.

Micah: How about Viktor Krum dancing with Hermione at the Yule Ball?

Eric: Yeah!

Chloé: That’s true. An athlete and…

Eric: An athlete, yeah.

Chloé: Definitely that works. I also think…

Eric: The audience really loves that one, and I do too.

Chloé: Look at you. Okay, pop culture.

Eric: Okay. But thank you for explaining that essential context to me.

Chloé: Yes, essential context for everyone.

Eric: Okay, okay, cool. Well, that’s adorable.

Chloé: Travis Kelce is definitely the Viktor Krum of… the real world? [laughs]

Eric: He’s just a guy!

Chloé: He is.

Eric: A really sweet, genuine… and that’s the one thing that rereading Goblet of Fire now is talking about.

Chloé: Viktor Krum is so cutie-patootie.

Eric: Viktor Krum is actually great.

Chloé: Stan is too.

Eric: Stan is too, yes.

Chloé: But yeah, Viktor Krum is so cute. And Travis Kelce just wants to show her off. And that’s the other thing; Hermione has never really been the pretty girl, and she gets to be, so I think that there’s a lot to that. Slay, Micah.

Micah: Glad I could…

Chloé: Proud of you. Okay, Taylor Swift fan.

Eric: Okay, that warmed us up.

Chloé: Micah is a Swiftie, confirmed at LeakyCon.

Eric: Nice. That’s going to make the headlines in the SEO.

[Chloé laughs]

Eric: Okay, where’s our next suggestion? Oh, we’ll do you right next.

Audience member: Hi, guys. I have kind of a weird, but sort of broad one. So…

Chloé: Let’s get it.

Audience member: Okay. So I’m Anna, by the way.

Eric: Hi, Anna.

Chloé: I remember you from last year.

Audience member: Yes, I had the Purple People-Eater last year. This year, I’m thinking Harry Potter and a hair dye incident that went wrong.

Chloé: [gasps] Oh, oh, I already know this. I already know this. First of all…

Eric: So a hair dye incident?

Chloé: A hair dye incident that went wrong.

Eric: Okay, okay.

Chloé: Ron’s eyebrow, one eyebrow is yellow after a mishap in class, so that’s hair dye gone wrong. Also, the Wonder Witch products are used by everyone pre-Yule Ball, pretty much. All the girls. So I imagine that they have a hair dye potion. Laura and I have talked about this extensively, actually; we would kill for the Wonder Witch products, specifically the hair dye, where you could wake up in the morning and just snap your fingers and have a new… I would have pink hair, probably, most days.

Eric: That would be cool.

Chloé: Right? So that is definitely a connection with the hair dye. I mean, Tonks when she’s sad can’t dye her hair the color that she wants to, or, well, she probably can, but she doesn’t. That’s also a hair mishap.

Eric: You know what I was thinking of, is there’s that time where Petunia cuts Harry’s hair all short in effort to tame it, and then he’s freaking out about it, and unconsciously, wordlessly, grows it back overnight. I’m like, well, hopefully that skill follows him around, so if he ever messes up dyeing his hair…

Chloé: There you go.

Eric: … he can just go to sleep nervous, and then it’ll be fixed in the morning.

Chloé: That would be amazing. You get a bad haircut and you’re crying after you leave. You tell your stylist, you’re like, “Yeah, it’s great,” and then you cry in your car.

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: We’ve all been there. [laughs] You go to bed, and then you wake up the next day and you’re like, “Wait a minute, it’s exactly what I wanted.”

Eric: Okay, right in front here.

Audience member: I’m Nicole, from Portland.

Chloé and Eric: Hi, Nicole.

Eric: Welcome, welcome.

Audience member: Make the connection between Portland Voodoo Doughnuts’ bacon maple bar.

Eric: Ohh.

Chloé: I just had Voodoo Doughnuts for the first time; so good. Maple bacon bar… that is so specific.

Micah: Seems like something Dudley would eat.

Chloé: Oh, for sure. Or something that maybe the Weasleys come up with, like a doughnut confection?

Eric: Yes, yes, the bizarre flavors that shouldn’t work but do are a staple of the wizarding world books, including… was it lavender? And there was a… they made it…

Chloé: At Florean Fortescue’s?

Eric: Yeah, the ice cream. There are definitely…

Chloé: That could definitely be a Florean Fortescue’s.

Eric: I see Florean Fortescue, and that man is so cool. Did not deserve his fate in the books. Student of history, helps Harry out with his homework, gives him free ice cream every half hour. Amazing guy. Yeah, I can see Florean Fortescue getting into sort of that maple bacon. Maybe your ice cream comes…

Chloé: Is bacon different in the UK?

Eric: I don’t think so.

Chloé: That’s a genuine question. [laughs]

Eric: Because bacon is different than Canadian bacon, right?

Chloé: Yeah, right. Exactly. That’s what I’m asking.

Eric: So yeah, wait, is British bacon Canadian bacon, or is it American bacon? We’re going to have to ask Chris. We’ll ask Chris. Okay, does anybody have another Make the …? Yes, hello.

Audience member: Hi, I’m Allie. I’m a Slytherin.

Eric: Hi, Allie. Welcome. That’s okay; we forgive you.

Chloé: I think it rocks.

Eric: Hee-hee.

Audience member: So I’m a big gymnastics fan, so make the connection between Harry Potter and the balance beam in gymnastics?

Chloé: Well, I think Suni Lee is probably a witch, so… [laughs] There’s no way that she’s able to do those moves without having gone to Hogwarts, for sure. But I mean, I think they kind of do gymnastics when they’re being thrown by the Whomping Willow. Not intentionally, sure, but…

Eric: I also think of how intimidated I was as a kid, maybe six years old, trying the balance beam for the first time because we had this really cool gym teacher that was like, “Here’s your whole obstacle course.” It reminds me of Remus Lupin’s obstacle course for them in the third year.

Chloé: Ooh.

Eric: Didn’t they even have tires? The tire thing where you jump in and out, in and out? Why wouldn’t there be a balance beam there?

Chloé: I wonder if also Quidditch players train in gymnastics, you know how football players do ballet? I’m wondering if…

Micah: Oh yeah, balancing on the broom.

Chloé: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I wonder if Ginny is out here balancing on a beam.

Audience member: Also, Durmstrang connection, right? They do all their tricks and stuff, so they definitely are training.

Chloé: Yeah! That’s true; they really do. I guess you have to be an acrobat to go to Durmstrang. You’ve got to study.

Eric: New canon just dropped. Thank you, Allie. Hello!

Audience member: Hi, I’m Jacob.

Chloé: Hi, Jacob.

Audience member: Harry Potter and goat yoga.

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: That’s for you. That’s all you, babes.

Eric: Oh, oh, oh.

Chloé: That is all Micah.

Micah: After retiring from the Hog’s Head, that’s what Aberforth opens.

[Audience laughs]

Eric: He opens his own this goat yoga place.

Micah: His goat yoga studio.

Eric: Be sure to Evanesco the mats when you first arrive.

[Chloé laughs]

Micah: Not just the mats.

Chloé: Have you ever done goat yoga?

Micah: No.

Chloé: Oh my God, we need to get you into goat yoga.

Micah: I’ll do it. 100%.

Chloé: You’ll do it? I’ll put it on our socials; don’t worry.

Eric: I actually see… all the goat stuff is very fun, but I actually see hippogriff yoga being a thing. Can you imagine going down into child’s pose…

Chloé: They’re so big.

Eric: Well, they’re big, but they’re next to you; this big, majestic beast. Say you’re sandwiched between two hippogriffs and you’re doing yoga, and all of you bow at the same time, and you’re in child’s pose, and then imagine a hippogriff doing…

Chloé: Yeah, but what happens when you do the other poses? [laughs]

Eric: I’m sorry, this is actually… this is unpopular with the audience, let the record state…

Chloé: Baby hippogriff yoga.

Eric: … but I think there would be many magical creatures that might be more magical than goats.

Chloé: [gasps] Okay, wait. I’m taking your hippogriff thing; I’m going further. You know how people do yoga on horses? I don’t think that that’s probably good for them, but you could probably do yoga on hippogriffs. You know how the circus…? This is a deep cut, but you could do yoga on full-grown hippogriffs.

Eric: What about…? Now because you said circus, I’m thinking of hanging from a hippogriff’s talons like the trapeze artist.

Chloé: Oh, and then flipping!

Eric: They throw you into a flip kind of a thing.

Chloé: Onto a beam. Where’s Allie?

Eric: Onto a beam!

[Chloé laughs]

Eric: We’ve combined it. Okay, we have two more people. Let’s take both their suggestions for Make the Connection.

Audience member: I am Camden, visiting from Houston, Texas…

Chloé: Hell yeah.

Audience member: … and this is important detail. Harry Potter and Beyoncé’s album Renaissance.

Chloé: Oh!

Micah: That’s totally you.

Audience member: I have some ideas, but I’m curious to know what you’d say.

Chloé: Oh my God. First of all, I loved…

Audience member: Me too, me too.

Chloé: Oh my goodness. Okay, well, “Levi’s Jeans” is probably one of my favorite songs.

Audience member: Okay, that’s from her more recent album.

Chloé: Oh, you’re asking for Renaissance!

Audience member: Yeah, Renaissance. I’m thinking…

Chloé: Girl, give me.

Audience member: I’m thinking “Renaissance” means rebirth, and how Voldemort was constantly trying to rebirth himself.

Chloé: Oh my God, I love how you’re connecting Beyoncé’s iconic Renaissance album…

Audience member: Because it’s everything.

Chloé: … to the ugly little fetus Voldemort. [laughs]

Audience member: The dichotomies. Even her horse, called Renee from Renaissance, Thestrals.

Chloé: That’s true, the Thestrals. That’s a good one. I love that. We were connecting Taylor Swift albums to Harry Potter yesterday, and I think we need to do it for Beyoncé next year.

Audience member: Yes, I want to!

Chloé: Okay, so we’re doing a panel next year? Good to know.

Audience member: For sure, okay. All right, see you next year. [laughs]

Eric: Thank you so much.

Audience member: Hi, my name is Daria. I was at the Taylor Swift one.

[Chloé laughs]

Audience member: Oh, I’m a Hufflepuff…

Chloé: Love.

Eric: Hi!

Audience member: … and my connection is between your favorite meme and Harry Potter.

Chloé: A favorite meme.

Eric: Oooh, that’s good. Do we have to say what our favorite meme is?

Chloé: Yeah, we definitely have to describe it.

Audience member: Please say what it is.

Chloé: Our favorite meme. And my favorite meme is a Vine.

Audience member: That’s fine.

Chloé: Is that okay? And it’s a really… it’s not a super appropriate Vine. It’s “B word, you’re going to step on my cowboy boots? B word, disgusting.”

[Audience laughs]

Chloé: I don’t know if you guys remember that, but I… ooh, I think probably it’s giving Gilderoy, because Gilderoy cared so much about his appearance, and he had the most beautiful set of boots, probably. And I’m picturing Gilderoy having a walk-in closet at Hogwarts. The thing is he doesn’t have the talent to do an Extendable Charm, but maybe he asked Dumbledore, and was like, “Hey, please, I need an extensible closet,” [laughs] and had the most beautiful array of… that’s the closet I want to probably raid. So yeah, look that Vine up if you’re over 18. “Step on my cowboy boots? B word, disgusting,” and that’s my favorite.

Eric: I love this meme that’s… it’s an old tweet that I have saved on my computer for many years, where it’s a NASA scientist, and he says, “You’re back early,” and the astronaut is like, “Yeah, space has monsters.” “What?” And he says, “*cocks shotgun* Space has monsters.”

Chloé: I’m going to have to post these memes so that everyone can see what we’re talking about clearly. [laughs]

Eric: This is unbelievable, yeah. But it’s an urgent, last minute, unexpected thing, and I can just see it taking place at the Ministry of Magic Auror office, like, “Oh, we bit off a little bit more than we could chew with exploring the origins of humanity again” kind of a thing.

Chloé: [laughs] Okay. I like that.

Micah: I like really sarcastic Baby Yoda memes, and I’m trying to think of what the connection is.

[Eric laughs]

Chloé: The constant sharing to your story of Baby Yoda memes. You’ve stopped doing it as much, but it’s every other day. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, it used to be every other day. I’m trying to think of a connection.

Chloé: We also post memes, by the way, not to shamelessly plug us, but we have sexy memes you should look at on our pages. Baby Yoda?

Eric: I’m looking up these Baby Yoda memes right now.

Chloé: You’re literally… your shirt is a connection. Star Wars.

Micah: There we go.

Chloé: Show off your shirt to everyone. It says, “Use the Force, Harry. – Gandalf,” so just covered all of them. Hit all big three at once.

[Audience applauds]

Eric: [laughs] And that’s a good tie-in. So when we love multiple fandoms and sometimes we might get some things mixed up. Also, thank you to everyone who…

Micah: Thank you all.

Chloé: Yes, thanks for giving us connections. Those were crazy. Those were cuckoo-coo-choo.

Eric: I love that we were able to sustain conversation about Harry Potter for 60 minutes in the year 2024, and that we were able to even have fun with “What ifs?” and alternate universes and all this stuff.

Chloé: Sorry I was late, y’all. Just know I still love you.

Eric: Just absolutely… well, but isn’t it great just to love things? And isn’t it great to be at a convention such as LeakyCon? The last LeakyCon ever…

Chloé: But Enchanti-con.

Eric: … but Enchanti-con is coming to really just celebrate our love of things, and that just really feels great to still be up here, to still be given the stage. We want to thank Melissa for everything that she’s done for us over the years, and we’re very excited to be here. We’re very excited to continue talking about that which we love. And I hope you all start podcasts and start talking about the things that you love.

Chloé: Also, come say hi.

Transcript #670

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #670, Hermione the Vigilante (GOF Chapter 37, The Beginning)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, we have reached the end of Goblet of Fire with Chapter 37, “The Beginning.” Interesting title for the final chapter, and Micah will complain about it in Chapter by Chapter this week.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I saw your note. But before we get to the beginning of “The Beginning,” we wanted to give you a quick look at what’s coming up on MuggleCast the next few weeks, because we have a unique schedule in the weeks ahead. So next week, the four of us, including Eric, will be together in Washington, DC for a podcast industry conference, and we will record some sort of episode for you all. We don’t have plans yet, but it probably will involve a butterbeer or two, and it’ll be fun because we’re all going to be together, the four of us, for the first time as a group in years.

Micah: When was the last time? That’s the real question.

Andrew: I’ve been trying to think of that. I don’t know.

Micah: New York?

Laura: Would it have been Infinitus when the theme park opened?

Andrew: [laughs] Don’t tell me it was back in 2010.

Laura: Because here’s the thing: We’ve all been together in various pairings and trios, but the four of us being together, it’s been a really long time.

Andrew: Right. Are we sure we’ve all ever been together, period?

Laura: What is time? [laughs]

Andrew: I think you might be right, Laura; I think it might be Infinitus in 2010, that Harry Potter conference around, like you said, the opening of the Wizarding World. That’s crazy.

Laura: 14 years later.

Micah: Is that when we did the panel in the Hog’s Head? Or not the Hog’s Head, the Three Broomsticks. You see where my head is at.

Andrew: Yeah, the Wizarding World land, yes. We were the only Harry Potter podcast to ever do a podcast there, I believe, so that’s a pretty cool honor too.

Micah: That’s true. It’s so interesting because there are pictures coming back into my mind of dinners in New York since then, because I know Laura, you obviously lived here for a period of time, and Kevin was also in the city. Andrew, you probably came to visit at some point; Eric, too, so it’s just… it’s probably the combinations just never worked out where all four of us were together.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. So our reunion episode, our IRL reunion episode, will happen next week. And then the following week, MuggleCast recorded live at LeakyCon – that was in July – in which Micah, Eric, and Chloé reflect on our 19th anniversary. That will be released. You also look back at the Deathly Hallows epilogue. And then the week after that will probably be a Muggle Mail episode; that one will be released September 5. And then a Order of the Phoenix movie commentary, September 12, and then I think we’re going to begin Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter September 19. So there’s the next four or five weeks of MuggleCast for everybody.

Laura: Wow. Isn’t September 19 Hermione’s birthday? I think I’m recalling that correctly.

Andrew: Yeah, you’re right.

Laura: Also International Talk Like a Pirate Day.

[Andrew gasps]

Micah: Oh. [laughs]

Andrew: How do you know that so quickly?

Laura: I don’t know, honestly. It’s just one of those things.

Micah: Emma Watson will be on the show and talk like a pirate the whole time.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: So there we go. That’s what’s coming up on MuggleCast here in late summer.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So without further ado, let’s get into Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing the final chapter in Goblet of Fire – another book finished – Chapter 37, “The Beginning.”

Micah: I thought you were going to go, [imitating Dumbledore] “Another book, gone.”

Andrew: I did that last week. I’ll do it at the end of this week too; remind me. All right, here we go.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Micah: Relationships…

Laura: … blossom…

Andrew: … when…

Micah: … the…

Andrew: … trio…

Laura: … parts…

Micah: … ways.

Andrew: Okay. Oh, phew, y’all saved that. Good job. [laughs]

Laura: I thought we actually did pretty well, because that is one of the takeaways of this chapter that we’ll certainly get into.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: But before we kick it off, I just want to say Goblet of Fire is my favorite book, as is well documented here on the show, and we did not plan it this way, but somehow I ended up doing the first chapter and the last chapter in terms of leading discussions, which feels really poetic and really random because we definitely didn’t plan it this way, but it’s what we did.

Andrew: That’s awesome. I’m glad it worked out that way.

Micah: Do you have a favorite chapter of Goblet of Fire?

Laura: Oh, man. What a question. I really like – and I’m terrible at remembering chapter names – I love the chapter where Harry is trapped in the stairwell under the Invisibility Cloak when Fakey comes around right as Snape is about to find him. I really, really love that chapter.

Micah: Cool.

Laura: Good question, though. I may have to go back and maybe change my mind. [laughs]

Micah: I’m sure somebody in the Discord will tell us the name of that chapter.

Laura: Yeah. Why do I want to say it’s “The Egg and the Eye”?

Andrew: That is a chapter.

Micah: Could be, because Harry drops the egg and that’s what causes all the ruckus.

Laura: Well, there was definitely a lot of ruckus, I guess it could be charitably called, over the last couple of chapters. But the main focus in this chapter is really the aftermath of everything that happened in the maze, with Cedric dying, with all of the attacks, with Harry nearly dying but managing to survive, Voldemort rising back to power, and all of these puzzle pieces coming together for all of the strange deaths and disappearances and happenings that have been going on for the last year. This is really where we get to see Harry and his peers and the rest of the major cast of characters really grapple with what’s happening and trying to make sense of it. And I know that we’re going to be able to pull some deep, insightful, intellectual points out of that conversation, but Micah, something’s bugging you, and I want to give you space.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And it’s not Rita Skeeter as a bug.

Micah: I forgot that segment ever existed until Laura just said that.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: For newer listeners, we did have a older segment on the show from time to time called “What’s Buggin’ Micah,” and this would fit in it. We talk about how this book is rushed, and no greater evidence of that than that the last chapter of Goblet of Fire is titled “The Beginning.” And I get it, but creatively…

Andrew: Do you? What do you think it means? What do you think it means?

Micah: It’s the start of the Second War.

Andrew: Okay, yeah. That would be my takeaway too.

Micah: It’s the start of Voldemort coming back to power and certain things being put into motion. But it just seems so generic for the author to title a chapter this way, especially at the very end of a book. Normally, you think at the beginning, it’s at the start. But I just… when I read it, I was like, “Really?” It seems kind of flat.

Laura: What would you have called it? If we were to rename the chapter, what would be better?

Andrew: Oooh.

Micah: Brock in the Discord says, “The Start of Something New.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Although that might be on par with “The Beginning.” We used to do that on the show, too; we used to rename the chapter.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Maybe we should bring that back for Order of the Phoenix, because I don’t think we’re doing MVP of the Week for Order of the Phoenix, since we did it with our last reread. So maybe this is foreshadowing what we’ll do with Book 5. How about a note that Laura wrote in here? “The Magical European Giant Envoy Adventure with Madame Maxime.” That could be the chapter title.

Micah: Love it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, it’s Hagrid’s Magical Giant Envoy Adventure with Madame Maxime. The “Hagrid’s” is very important in front of that.

Andrew: Yes, yes.

Laura: But yeah, I mean, I see where you’re coming from, Micah, because there are a lot of other themes that could have been pulled out of this that would, I think, resonate the same way and send the same message without being quite so… I don’t know, trope-y, I guess. [laughs] Maybe that’s the issue.

Andrew: If I’m looking at this chapter title in a list, in the Table of Contents, yes, I agree with you. But like you said, Micah, this is representing the start of this new war, and I think there’s a lot of setup in this chapter for Book 5, so in that way it makes sense to me, because there are many foreshadowy type moments in this chapter.

Laura: Well, so this chapter – and I feel like I had this happen a lot with this book – I feel like the movie influenced my memories of certain events. And when I think of the way this book ends, I think of Dumbledore’s speech in the Great Hall and then everyone parts ways, and that’s not actually what happens. There’s still a little bit of term left after the third task, during which Harry has to do a couple of things that are tough in different ways. First and foremost, he has to meet with the Diggories and recount Cedric’s last moments to them, which… it’s got to be difficult. We already know Harry is probably feeling some survivor’s guilt, and we see that he feels guilt towards Cedric being the one who was lost in trying to give the Diggories his Triwizard winnings that he got from Fudge in the last chapter; they won’t take it. But something that I thought was interesting about this interaction is that Amos Diggory just bawls through the entire interaction with Harry, and Mrs. Diggory doesn’t. Harry describes her grief as being beyond tears, and I wondered if that was some kind of literary illusion or commentary on motherhood, or the love of a mother being distinct.

Andrew: I guess you could say – and I really don’t mean to make a joke out of this – but I guess you could say Lily’s love for Harry was beyond tears as well; I mean, that went a whole other level. I was also thinking it would have been really nice for Cedric’s mom and Harry to bond in maybe just Book 5 at least, because she lost her son and he, Harry, lost his mom, so they would have fit nicely together. I mean, we don’t even know Cedric’s mom’s first name; she’s just referred to as “Mrs. Diggory.” For some reason we know Amos’s but not her name, which I find a little strange too. Rushed.

Laura: Yeah. Well, this is the only time we see her, right? We never saw her before, and we’ll never see her again, so…

Andrew: Yeah, but the first time we meet her is a good time to learn her first name, I kind of feel.

Laura: Yeah. It was such a quick interaction, though; it was literally less than a paragraph of description.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I agree. It could have just been so much more, though. Like I was saying, they both lost somebody in reverse roles, if you want to describe it that way. I think that could have been an interesting dynamic to read later on.

Laura: Yeah, I agree. It does kind of feel like a miss that we never hear about the Diggories again until Cedric…

Micah: Oh, we do in Cursed Child.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, until Cedric comes back and goes bad. [laughs] But something else that Harry has to do after the events of the third task, which I just find to be reprehensible, ridiculous, and outrageous, is still go to classes. They’re still having classes. What? Classes should have been canceled for the rest of term for everyone. The entire student population just went through something traumatic. And especially, why is Harry having to go?

Micah: Maybe it was just seen as a way for him to be able to work through the situation that he just experienced? But given some of his professors and his relationship to them, can’t imagine that that sat well. Maybe it was just good for him to be around his fellow students. If he had gone straight home to the Dursleys after what happened, it probably would have been a lot worse than what we see him experience.

Andrew: Ooh, yeah.

Micah: I mean, he goes through a lot over the summer, and we’ll talk about it during the Order of the Phoenix reread, but got to imagine it would have been even worse for him if he didn’t have an additional month to be able to process everything that went on. But one thing I wanted to call attention to is that it’s noted that even though classes are going on, there is no Defense Against the Dark Arts because of what happened to the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor. However, the real Moody is still at Hogwarts, but he’s not teaching, and I just feel like this is a really awkward situation where he’s going to meals each and every day, sitting up at the professors’ dais, but he’s not doing anything there. Is this just for him to be able to recover too? Albus is like, “Alastor, I’m so sorry. Everything that’s happened this year; please have a few meals on Hogwarts.”

Andrew: [laughs] He wanted Alastor to experience a usual month at Hogwarts, so that’s why classes resumed, but DADA did not. I think… let’s say they did cancel all the classes. What are the kids going to do? If you think about in the Muggle world, if school got canceled or school ended a month early, that throws off a lot of parents, so maybe that’s a factor as well.

Laura: Yeah. Is it a full month?

Andrew: I don’t know what it is.

Micah: I thought so.

Andrew: I feel like in the beginning of the chapter, it did say something about a month passing.

Laura: Okay. Yeah, because the way I read it, it was maybe a couple of weeks or something, but it could have been longer.

Andrew: The chapter begins, “When he looked back, even a month later, Harry found he had only scattered memories of the next few days.” Okay. Well, so I don’t know how to read this now. Well, is the month later present day, or is it even after this chapter?

Laura: Yeah, is it the month later, as in when he’s back at the Dursleys? I suppose it doesn’t really matter, because again, I think it’s really strange that we have some classes, not others, that people are expected to attend. It’s kind of the same vibe that I always used to feel as a student; obviously, circumstances here are very different, but when you would have to do end of year exams but then you still had another two weeks of school afterwards, and it was like, “Why do I have to be here?” But he does get to have one last heart to heart with Hagrid before heading back to Privet Drive, which is a good thing that Harry gets to do before he leaves. And I think Hagrid drops some really sage advice in this exchange about the current situation they’re in and what Harry can and can’t do about it. Micah, I was wondering, could we get you to read this Hagrid quote? You do the best Hagrid.

Andrew: He took a big sip of water as you were asking, so I think he was anticipating it.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Is it southern Hagrid or is it just Hagrid?

Laura: It’s up to you.

Andrew: [in an exaggerated southern accent] Hagrid.

Laura: Whatever you’re feeling.

Micah: I don’t know. We’ll see what comes out.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “Known it fer years, Harry. Knew he was out there, bidin’ his time. It had ter happen. Well, now it has, an’ we’ll jus’ have ter get on with it. We’ll fight. Migh’ be able to stop him before he gets a good hold. That’s Dumbledore’s plan anyway. Great man, Dumbledore. ‘S long as we’ve got him, I’m not too worried.”

Laura: Bravo. That was very good.

Andrew: Good voice and good remarks from Hagrid about Dumbledore.

Micah: Yeah, no southern twinge there.

Laura: There was kind of.

Micah: Was there?

Laura: There was a little bit; I picked up on it. It was subtle, but it was in there. I so appreciated what Hagrid had to say here to Harry, because I think he’s helping the trio understand that this will not be fixed quickly. This isn’t like the other events of their prior years where they were able to defeat the bad guy and come back to school knowing that things were going to be “normal” and that there wasn’t a looming threat over them. That’s not the case anymore. They didn’t solve the puzzle this time. They didn’t win this time.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: And he’s letting Harry know that that’s okay and that that’s not on him and it’s not on the trio to have fixed this. Again, I think Harry, coming out of a situation like this, could have a lot of survivor’s guilt, but also guilt at feeling like, “Why couldn’t I stop this?” Or “Why didn’t I catch this sooner? Why did I trust Moody so much?” And we’ve seen Harry do this before where he’s kind of hard on himself, and Hagrid is basically saying, “You’re 14. We will meet the challenges as they come, but there’s nothing to do about it or worry about at this moment.”

Andrew: Yeah, and Hagrid offered a couple other great lines in this chapter. He says, “What’s comin’ will come, an’ we’ll meet it when it does.” And I like this because this is a good lesson about just rolling with the punches. And actually, Harry remembers this line in the very last sentence of the book, which I think puts a point on just how powerful this thought was from Hagrid. And Hagrid also said to Harry… he asked him if he’s all right, and Harry lied; he said, “Yeah, I’m all right.” And Hagrid said, “No, you’re not. Of course you’re not.” And I really like this moment, too, because it’s a typical human moment where someone says they’re fine when really they’re not, and Hagrid, knowing Harry very well at this point, can just read it on his face, and he can say to Harry, point blank, “You’re not okay,” and that is implying it’s okay to not be okay.

Micah: This is like part of our Inside Out conversation from What the Hype?! in terms of emotions and therapy. But we were just talking about this before: Why did the students stay? Well, for Harry in particular, this is as good as a therapy session to be able to go and talk with Hagrid. And as you were pointing out, Andrew, Hagrid is being very real. He’s being very transparent in this moment, and he’s saying a lot of things to Harry that I think he needs to hear.

Andrew: Yeah. His comments also just break gender stereotypes. This big, burly, giant half-giant saying to Harry here, “It’s okay to not be okay. What’s coming will come. It’s all right; you can be in your feelings right now.” And I like that too, because too often there’s this issue with fathers or father figures where they don’t want to talk with their children or important people in their lives and let it out.

Micah: And he has some self-deprecating humor as well, because he throws out, “Hey, you want to go check out the last Skrewt? I’m just joking, I’m just joking.”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: He recognizes in that moment that making fun of himself in terms of his teaching over the last year could also bring a smile to Harry’s face.

Andrew: Yeah. Also, just to circle back to his comments on Dumbledore: Dumbledore, we learn in this chapter, wants Harry to drop by Privet Drive for a hot minute before continuing on to the Weasleys’, and Harry asks why, and Ron says, “Dumbledore’s got his reasons.” And we don’t know what this means now, but of course later we find out that Harry needs to check in on a regular basis – what is it, a yearly basis? – for the magic to stay in place, the protection to stay in place, so thought that was a cool bit of foreshadowing, too.

Laura: Right.

Micah: The one other thing I just wanted to add is I think Hagrid understands Harry’s situation better than most people do, and I say that more with respect to maybe how he’s feeling in terms of the response he’s getting from other students after everything that’s happened. Just knowing Hagrid’s past and what he’s gone through, it seems like he’s in a position to best give Harry advice here.

Laura: I agree. And as we teased at the top of the show, this is the chapter where we get the tease for Hagrid’s Magical European Giant Envoy Adventure with Madame Maxime.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That is actually longer than Hagrid’s Magical Creature Motorbike Adventure.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Well, yeah, the sequel has to be longer. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, you’ve got to one-up the original. We need a segment on the show called “Theme park that.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We have “Max that,” but we need “Theme park that.” Turn that into a theme park ride, too, Universal.

Laura: Why not? [laughs]

Andrew: Why not?

Laura: But he’s clearly had to do a bit of convincing of Madame Maxime. When the trio get there, there are a couple of large mugs on Hagrid’s table, and he lets them know that she’s just been around for tea and that he’s managed to convince her to do some sort of mission that Dumbledore has for them. He won’t tell the trio any more than that, but of course, knowing what happens in Order of the Phoenix and the next time we see Hagrid, we know where he will have been. But it makes me wonder how Madame Maxime reacted when Dumbledore approached she and Hagrid with this, because she’s been in denial about who she is this entire book, presumably her entire adult life, and I wonder how quickly Dumbledore would have cut through something like that. If he was like, “Hey, I need you and Hagrid to go make an envoy with the giants because… you know,” and I could see her being like, “What? What do you mean?” And Dumbledore being like, “Okay, everyone knows. Just calm down.” [laughs]

Andrew: So my big feeling here is Madame Maxime did not sign up for all this when she came to Hogwarts with her students this year.

Laura: Oh, no.

Andrew: She comes for the Triwizard Tournament and wants to go back home, and now she’s maybe falling for Hagrid, and also now has to go on this magical creature motorbike giant adventure.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I would be like, “Sorry, this is not what I signed up for. I’m here for the school season. I’m here for the Triwizard Tournament, and then I’m out. Like, no.” [laughs] Imagine you all went on a work trip, and then somebody’s trying to sign you up for another work trip on that existing work trip.

Laura: Yeah, that would suck. But I don’t know; what if Dumbledore is also low-key setting them up? “Go travel together…”

Andrew: Yeah, he’s a matchmaker. For sure.

Micah: I think Madame Maxime probably had a little bit of a realization after everything that’s gone on this year, and perhaps with what happened to Cedric and just seeing everything play out the way that it did over the last couple of weeks, months, she’s willing to take direction from Dumbledore and work with Hagrid on this.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: She recognizes the threat, and she believes what Dumbledore is saying.

Laura: Yeah. And actually, Michelle in our Discord is positing, “Maybe Madame Maxime was part of the original resistance, so she knows what’s coming and what it means.”

Andrew: Ooh, I like that.

Laura: Yeah, I like that too. Well, we’ll be back in a moment to talk about Dumbledore’s end of year speech, but first, a few words from these sponsors.

[Ad break]

Laura: All right, so we learn in this chapter that Dumbledore gives two speeches to the school; one of them we don’t get to hear because it happens when Harry is still in the hospital wing, but what we do learn is that Dumbledore basically says, “Leave Harry alone. Don’t bother him. Don’t ask him questions.” But this one, this end of year speech, is really somber. Harry enters the Great Hall, and instead of it being donned in the colors of the winner of the House Cup, it’s covered in black, right? There’s black drapes everywhere, mourning Cedric, and Dumbledore raises a toast to Cedric and drops some pretty blunt honesty about what happened to him on the student body, which he correctly predicts that some parents are going to have feelings about, and we really do see that play out in the next book with the way that the student body and a lot of even adult wizards are treating Harry and Dumbledore like they’re crazy, like they’re fear-mongering and inciting panic amongst the people. But I thought it was really telling that Dumbledore specifically said, “Some of your parents will think you’re too young to hear this, and some of them just won’t want to believe that it’s true,” and he’s so right about it. So many people are in denial.

Andrew: Yeah. But I also agree that some of the kids at school are too young, I think, to be hearing this. Some of those kids are as young as 11 years old, so I think there’s a middle ground solution here. Split the kids up, 14 and older, or maybe even 13 and older, and then the 11- and 12-year-olds can just live in…

Micah: Hmm.

Andrew: What, don’t agree?

Micah: Well, I’m just…

Laura: They’re going to hear about it anyway.

Micah: Yeah, I’m almost comparing it to real world situations. If you have something like a school shooting, where unfortunately, students are killed, naturally the whole school is going to hear about it. They’re all going to sit through some kind of post-event speech from their principal or their superintendent or somebody else that’s going to talk to them about what happened. So are you saying less so about Cedric, more so about Voldemort? Because at this point, Voldemort is just hearsay. Is that the part you’re struggling with the 11-year-olds hearing about?

Andrew: Yeah, I think hearing that Cedric died is okay, but maybe they don’t need to know that it was at the hand of Voldemort and basically on school grounds during their tournament. I think it’s just a lot for an 11-year-old.

Micah: It’s almost like Dumbledore is establishing his position by doing this. He’s saying very clearly to students who are going to go back to their parents and share this information, and we know that those parents run the gamut in terms of their beliefs and who they’ve supported in the past, so it’s almost like he is trying to distinguish himself and get himself out in front of what’s to come with Fudge and the Ministry in the next book.

Andrew: Yeah, get in front of the Ministry spin by getting his side of the story out, because maybe some people will be more inclined to believe Dumbledore if he is coming out with this information sooner rather than later, and certainly sooner than the Ministry trying to spin this. I do like that school shooting example, too. I hadn’t thought about that.

Laura: Yeah. I think also kids can tell when you’re BS-ing them, and I think back to when I was a kid, and I always had a lot of respect and trust in adults who didn’t dumb things down for me just because I was a kid, so I think that’s part of what’s happening here. We have to remember, unfortunately, some underage students do stay behind to fight in Deathly Hallows, so some of these first years in this book will be, what, fourth years by the time that happens? It’s entirely possible that some of them did stay to fight when they weren’t supposed to, right? And who knows what the trajectory would have been for those students had Dumbledore lied or sugarcoated things for them in terms of what they believed, for example, or how they carried themselves in conversations about Voldemort, because it has to be one of the main things that kids are talking about over the next couple of books.

Micah: It has to cause a level of mass hysteria, too, not just amongst the students, but amongst the family members that they take this back to, thinking about… it really does run the spectrum in terms of the response, because I’m sure, well, the Malfoys already know he’s back, but the Longbottoms, for example… Neville talks about… or maybe it’s even Augusta who makes an appearance in the next book and talks about her faith in Dumbledore. But we see it with Harry’s other roommates who are less supportive of this whole situation, so it really does create a lot of turmoil, or it will be creating a lot of turmoil by the time next term starts.

Laura: Yeah, and we definitely see the seeds being planted here. Earlier in the chapter, Harry notes that he feels like his peers are skirting him in the halls and that he feels like they’ve bought into Rita Skeeter’s rhetoric about him being off his rocker. But then, with all of that in mind, Dumbledore toasts Harry for his bravery in facing Voldemort and bringing back Cedric’s body, and at that point, all heads in the Great Hall are turned to Harry, which is the last thing he wants right now, because he had this horrific traumatic event befall him. And he also knows that easily, half of his peers, if not more, think he’s crazy, and now Dumbledore is turning all of their attention to him. So I don’t think he wants it, but I do think that it was the right thing for Dumbledore to do, because Harry needs the credibility.

Andrew: Yeah, and I think, right, he needs to be told “You did everything you could. You did the right thing.” And as for the Slytherins who did stand, I think this is a moment of just… there’s a debate about whether or not Voldemort is back, but there’s no denying that Harry brought Cedric’s body back from whatever happened, and that definitely deserves a standing ovation and a round of applause.

Laura: Yeah. So on that note, Andrew, I thought the way this was written was so interesting because it’s said that Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, and many other Slytherins remained defiantly in their seats when Dumbledore toasted Harry, which to me implies some of them did remain standing, and I’ve just got to say, that’s a pretty brave show, given that there are at least three children of active Death Eaters sitting at that table. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I think… I mean, so you’re saying the Death Eaters might come and attack them later, or the kids will?

Laura: I don’t know if it automatically puts a target on their back, but this is not a time that I would want a target being put on my back at all. You know what I mean? I feel like if you’re a Slytherin who is standing up to toast Harry Potter after he escaped Voldemort, that’s going to raise some questions in the common room.

Andrew: But he saved Cedric, too; that’s really important. As a Slytherin, I would stand if we were toasting Harry in this moment.

Micah: Yeah, and there’s no social media; you don’t have to worry about somebody showing Mr. Malfoy photos from the Slytherin table.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But this is hard for me. It feels almost like Dumbledore is doing a bit of fan service on behalf of Harry. I don’t know that you needed to toast him. I think you could have recognized him, but toast him in the same moment that you just toasted Cedric? I don’t know; it just didn’t feel right to me. I don’t think he needed it.

Andrew: Giving that the same honor is a little odd; I think I can agree with you there. Harry doesn’t need to be toasted like Cedric was, because Harry is still alive. Some sort of acknowledgement, but maybe not a toast. I could see that. I can get down with you on that.

Micah: What are they toasting, by the way? What are they drinking? I want to know.

Andrew: Water? Butterbeer?

Micah: Water. [laughs]

Laura: Nothing good, because they’re all underage.

Micah: That’s true. Dumbledore isn’t, though. He’s well overage.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: He deserves a drink. A real one.

Laura: Well, yeah, I think he always has a stiff drink when he’s in the Great Hall. I don’t think there’s ever a time when something nonalcoholic is in that man’s goblet. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, when dealing with all those kids? I would too.

Laura: Toasting Cedric and Harry isn’t the only thing that is at the heart of Dumbledore’s speech; he really wants to talk about what the purpose of the Triwizard Tournament was, and in this he verbally embraces the students from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang to welcome them back to Hogwarts anytime. And what I love that he does here, he really impresses upon all the students here that Voldemort thrives the most when he’s able to cause discord amongst people and division, so really trying to encourage all of these students to maintain the bonds that they’ve built throughout the year. And Krum in particular looks distinctly uncomfortable when Dumbledore looks at the Durmstrang table. I was wondering, is he worried that the rest of the students are going to jump to assumptions because of Karkaroff fleeing after the events of last night and all of the other perceptions that come with Durmstrang?

Micah: Probably. And we don’t know it yet, but that’s also where Grindelwald went, and Dumbledore knows that. Krum knows that. Does Dumbledore know that Krum knows that? I don’t know.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, it’s kind of an elephant in the room type of situation. I mean, for Karkaroff to flee is a pretty bad look.

Laura: Yeah. Well, after Dumbledore’s speech, we finally do reach a point where all of the Hogwarts students and their friends from France and Bulgaria are truly parting ways, and we have a little bit of a foreshadowing alert here because in one way or another, it’s made very apparent that we’re going to see Fleur and Viktor again.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Laura: So first of all, Fleur approaches Harry and says, “Hey, I’m hoping to come back to England to get a job so I can improve my English. I hope we’ll see each other again.” We obviously know where that’s going and who helps her improve her English in the next couple of years. [laughs]

Andrew: Ayy.

Laura: But Viktor also approaches and asks Hermione for a private word so he can say goodbye to her.

Andrew: Woop!

Laura: I know. Oooh!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m kind of surprised other students around them didn’t do that. But there is this moment of respect between Fleur and Viktor; Fleur is so much more warm towards Harry in this interaction than she was in the beginning of the year when she just referred to him as a “little boy” and she was pissed off at him for being in the tournament, and both she and Krum shake hands with Harry. So I wanted to ask if, based on the relationships that Harry has built with Fleur and Viktor, do we think that the tournament was successful in its mission of breeding magical cooperation? International magical cooperation?

Andrew: [laughs] Well, look, if Cedric didn’t die, I’m not so sure we would have this same outcome. That could be a whole episode: What would have changed if that whole event did not happen?

Micah: See Cursed Child.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, I think Fleur and Krum are shaking Harry’s hand largely because of him bringing back Cedric. I mean, that just changes everything. Like, okay, he did not want to put himself through all of this, the tournament. He did not deserve to have to face potentially Voldemort. He didn’t deserve to have to bring Cedric’s body back. I think it’s more of a show of respect for what Harry went through, not necessarily this unifying event only brought to us by the Triwizard Tournament.

Micah: I could agree with that. I think some of it has to do with how Harry chose to act in the second task and save Gabrielle that endeared Fleur to him without question, and I think that formed a bond. And we saw Krum speaking pretty civilly to Harry before they ran into Barty Crouch, Sr. in the forest, and complimenting him, even, on his Quidditch, right? Or on his flying in the first task. So the person I really want to talk about, though, is Hermione, because we talk about this whole… she even talks about international cooperation, right? That’s the whole point of the Triwizard Tournament. She rightly criticizes Ron earlier on in this book for how he behaves towards Krum, but in this moment even, in this final chapter, she kind of rolls her eyes and walks away when Fleur approaches Harry, and that probably just speaks to her opinion of her, but it’s not very international cooperation-y. [laughs]

Laura: I felt like she was more rolling her eyes at how Ron reacted to Fleur.

Micah: Oh, maybe.

Laura: Because when she said, “I want to come here so I can improve my English,” and I think Ron said something like, “It’s already very good,” and I guess Fleur gave him a genuine beam, like she beamed at him. She was very kind to him and he kind of, I think, was tongue-tied at that point.

Micah: I just don’t see her having become buddy-buddy with the Beauxbatons contingent.

Laura: No, I don’t think so. Well, I think Hermione… she’s a teenage girl, right? She’s got some of those insecurities. And we already talked about how there’s a good deal of xenophobia that’s represented in the way that the British characters react to the French characters in particular in this book, so I think there’s probably some of that in there.

Micah: But to answer your question, though, I do think it was successful because of what we see happen in future books. We already talked about Madame Maxime partnering up with Hagrid to go speak with the giants, so there are certain good things that have come out of this year.

Laura: Yeah. I do tend to agree, though, that I think unfortunately the real unifier here is the fact that Cedric died and Voldemort came back, because it was kind of jarring for everyone and made everyone realize what’s actually important. And it’s like, “Well, this tournament is not important. Who cares about the tournament?”

Micah: That is actually a really good point. I can imagine just Madame Maxime and Fleur being kind of… not really caring one way or the other, but certainly Karkaroff being super pissed if Harry and/or Cedric ended up winning the tournament and Krum was left on the outskirts again.

Laura: Well, when the trio are on the train, we do finally get some payoff on the whole Rita Skeeter subplot of this book. Hermione gets a copy of the Prophet off the lunch trolley and confirms for Harry that no news about Voldemort’s return or Cedric’s death have been reported on, which already shows us the beginning of what we’re going to see from the press over these next couple of books. But Hermione also makes the reveal that Rita Skeeter is an unregistered Animagus and has been transforming into a beetle all year to get inside scoops.

[Andrew makes buzzing noise]

Laura: She was the beetle on the statue in the garden at the Yule Ball, she was the beetle in Hermione’s hair after the second task, and she was sitting on the windowsill in Divination when Harry’s scar was hurting.

[Andrew makes buzzing noise]

Laura: So this is where Hermione gets into a little bit of unhinged vigilante justice, and I kind of love it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I kind of love it because she puts Rita Skeeter in a jar, [laughs] and puts an Unbreakable Charm on that jar so that Rita cannot transform. So presumably, she’s had Rita in this jar for at least several days, because she catches her in the hospital wing when Harry is recovering after the maze.

Micah: This is where the timing question comes into play, too, because you just mentioned she pulled the Daily Prophet off the trolley cart, and presumably, if you were expecting to see something about Cedric’s death, that would mean that Cedric’s death would have happened fairly recently, as opposed to a month later that’s probably not news that’s going to… now, I don’t know that it’s news that the Ministry ever would have wanted to get into the paper anyway; that’s a whole other discussion, but this made me think as… because I thought, “Well, if they said it’s been at least a month, Rita has been in there for at least a month?” But maybe not. I’m confused now.

Andrew: Yeah, it is a big question to me, because I’m wondering if people at the Ministry or the Prophet are concerned about her whereabouts, because something horrific just happened at Hogwarts, and Rita goes missing pretty soon after that for X amount of time? In light of what just happened with Voldemort and Cedric, I think there’s some serious cause for concern if anybody goes missing right now.

Laura: Yeah, but I mean, Fudge is in denial, and he’s the only member of the Ministry who heard the truth, who Dumbledore shared it with, at least that night. And we see how Fudge treated Bertha Jorkins, so I don’t know if…

Andrew: He doesn’t care. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think he cares all that much.

Micah: But maybe the Daily Prophet cares more about their employees than the Ministry does.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I don’t know. Is Rita a full-time employee at the Daily Prophet?

Micah: I don’t think so.

Laura: I don’t think that’s how that works.

Micah: Contributing writer. [laughs]

Andrew: I love talking about the news world in the wizarding world. You’ve got to think she’s frequently in contact with her people at the Prophet, so for her to suddenly not be heard from would raise some flags, but okay. I mean…

Laura: Maybe. But here, think about this: If she is someone who, as an illegal Animagus, frequently uses that to go undercover and get stories, it might not be unusual for them not to hear from her for a while, because what if she’s deep undercover?

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Laura: [laughs] She’s in beetle form for, like, two weeks.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s embedded. Is that normally what the…? She’s an embedded reporter.

Laura: Right. [laughs] Can you imagine? But what I love about this is that Hermione tells Rita… I love the idea of her holding the jar and talking to Rita and saying, “I’ll let you out when we get to London…”

Andrew: If you’re a good girl.

Laura: “… and you can’t write a damn thing for a year, or else I’m going to out you for being an illegal Animagus.” So this sets up perfectly for the next interaction that we’re going to have with Rita in Order of the Phoenix when Hermione removes the gag order and tells Rita, “You are going to write a story; it’s just going to be a very specific story, and I’m going to direct the slant of it.”

Micah: One thing I did want to call attention to here, and there actually are some similarities between the end of Prisoner of Azkaban and the end of Goblet of Fire, the most notable one was that what just passed actually with Barty Crouch, Jr. being a Death Eater and getting his soul sucked out by a Dementor. That obviously doesn’t happen at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban with Sirius, who’s a presumed Death Eater, but then it ends up happening in Goblet of Fire. Well, we didn’t have the Animagus Peter Pettigrew caught at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, but we do have the Animagus – unregistered, of course – in Rita Skeeter, who is caught by Hermione.

Andrew: Sweet justice for evil Animagi.

Micah: Just trying to connect some threads there.

Andrew: Yeah, no, it’s a good one.

Laura: No, that’s a really good connection. And honestly, I think Hermione probably learned something from last year.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s true.

Laura: We’ve seen Hermione… Hermione connects the threads all the time, too, and so she’s already… she’s probably remembering, “How was it that Peter Pettigrew was able to be right under our noses for three years? Maybe that’s what Rita is doing.”

Andrew: Hiding as something else. Yeah, that’s a good point too.

Laura: Well, we’re going to take a quick break before we come back and wrap the chapter, so stay with us; we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Laura: And of course, the story would not be complete without the Three Stooges – Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle – coming to harass the trio, and Malfoy reminds Harry of the interaction that they had on the Hogwarts Express nearly four years ago, when he warned Harry not to hang out with riffraff like the Weasleys. And right as he’s about to say something really distasteful about Cedric’s death, the trio, Fred, and George hit these three with different hexes and knock them unconscious, and they’re just in varying states of, I don’t know, disarray. I think Goyle has some kind of growth coming off of his face.

Andrew: A pimple? We all got one of those, especially at that age.

Laura: No, it was more than that. It was more than that.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Laura: Harry does use Furnunculus, though, which I think is what Malfoy tried to use on him earlier in the book, and isn’t that the one that hit Hermione? Or was it the other way around?

Andrew: I can’t remember, but it did shake me that Draco was bringing up his comments to Harry from four years ago, and I think the fact that he dug that old memory up tells me how rocked Draco has been by the events of the last month. He’s fired up and he’s pissed that Harry isn’t on his side, and he’s ready to take out some anger on Harry and everybody who’s not on him and his father’s side.

Laura: Yeah, he’s definitely got that sports team mentality about all of it, because he’s never actually had to face up to any of this. It’s really easy to be staunchly on the Dark side of this war if you never really had any skin in the game. It’s all rhetoric at that point, so Draco has a couple of years before it becomes real for him. And then Fred and George also give us a reveal about their attempts to blackmail Ludo Bagman all year, and the kicker that Bagman was attempting to pay back his debts to the goblins by betting on Harry to win the tournament, which is why he was trying to help Harry all year. With that in mind, should Harry have let Bagman help him? Would the outcome have been different?

Micah: I feel like Mad-Eye Fakey had way more intel than Ludo did. I’d be curious to know the type of help Ludo would have provided Harry. Would he have actually told him how to get through some of these tasks the way that Fakey did?

Andrew: Why, because Ludo wouldn’t want to make it too obvious that he was getting help?

Micah: No, I don’t know. I’m just thinking about how smart Ludo actually is. Fakey was legitimately taking other champions out of Harry’s way. [laughs] I don’t think Ludo would have done that.

Andrew: No, no, but some hints about what he needs to succeed in each tournament or in each task would suffice.

Micah: True.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Micah: But just talking about Ludo and his debt to the goblins, I was reading up on this a little bit, and we know that goblins don’t have the same rights as witches and wizards; they’re not treated the same in the wizarding world. And because they likely don’t have any legal course of action they could take against Ludo, do we think this is why they’re trying to get money back from him the way that they are? There’s just no real means for them to otherwise do it.

Andrew: Yeah, and they don’t really have any oversight anyway. There’s no rules for them.

Micah: Right, they can’t go to the Ministry. I just… I don’t know how they would be treated by Ministry officials if they did bring a case against Ludo.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I don’t see the goblins moving as though they’re subject to wizarding law, so what they do to Bagman in this book feels pretty on brand. And I’ve played Hogwarts Legacy, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: You know. You’ve been there.

Laura: I know.

Micah: You’ve taken out a few goblins?

Laura: Just a few.

Andrew: It does seem kind of crazy to me that Ludo would want to make a bet with the goblins, knowing that they could potentially operate in this way. Surely this isn’t news to him that they will come after him if he loses.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and we do see that they play just as dirty as as he did, right? Because ultimately, they said, “No, you didn’t win this because Harry didn’t win the cup alone; Harry and Cedric got it at the same time.”

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Yeah, they’re smart.

Andrew: Which almost could have… honestly, that should have been a predictable outcome. Even if Voldemort wasn’t there, even if BCJ wasn’t involved, couldn’t we all see Harry and Cedric being like, “Oh, you know what? We’re both so close to the cup. We’re ahead of Fleur and Krum. Let’s take it together, because we’re both from Hogwarts.” I think if I were Ludo, I would have anticipated this happening.

Micah: Yeah, the goblins are very mafioso. I’m thinking about Ron Perlman’s character from Fantastic Beasts.

Andrew: Oh, okay, yeah.

Micah: The way that he comes across in that speakeasy. I bet all goblins are that tough, most of them, except the ones in Hogwarts Legacy.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But HallowWolf brings up a good point in the Discord that Ludo just seems to have a gambling addiction. I think that’s what it comes down to.

Laura: Yeah, I think so.


Odds & Ends


Laura: Well, let’s get into some odds and ends. So funny note here: Krum notes that Karkaroff didn’t steer their Durmstrang ship when they came to Hogwarts earlier in the school year, but rather that he stayed in his cabin while the students did all the work. This is when Ron asks, “How are they supposed to steer their ship back to Durmstrang without Karkaroff?” and Krum was like, “We’ll be fine. We got it. He didn’t do anything coming here,” which is on brand. And then, speaking of Krum, Ron asks Krum for an autograph, even though he was clearly jealous that Krum had stolen Hermione away for a private goodbye, so I think this shows Ron growing up a little bit too?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. Look, once a fan, always a fan, and I think he’s not going to miss that opportunity, possibly for the last time, to ask Krum for an autograph. So I get it, buddy.

Laura: It’s okay. You’ll see him again in a couple of years at your brother’s wedding.

Andrew: Yeah, and you can get another autograph.

[Laura laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, that is the chapter, and now it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Hermione for cracking the Rita code. I still remember reading this for the first time and being so impressed and so glad that Rita was caught like this. I just couldn’t help but feel a huge swell of pride for Hermione figuring this out, so she gets my MVP.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Dum… no, I’m just kidding.

Andrew: Wow.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Harry, for just a really… I was taken aback by Harry at the end of this chapter, not only giving his winnings to Fred and George, saying that everyone was going to need a good laugh with what’s to come, but for being an amazing friend and specifically stating that they buy Ron new dress robes as well. I just thought that Harry came through for his friend in that moment.

Laura: Totally. And for a similar reason, I’m going to give mine to Hagrid, because he really came through for Harry in this chapter. Like we talked about, he gave Harry a lot of the fatherly advice that I think Sirius would have also given him if he had time, right? So Hagrid really steps up and shows out for Harry here. I appreciate him.

Micah: We could give Eric’s to Dumbledore, because I think Dumbledore just…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: He did… telling the truth, not being afraid to say what’s actually going on in spite of the Ministry.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: It is the right call, for sure. I think y’all are starting to get a little soft on Dumbledore during this reread. I’m noticing a trend.

Laura: Well, yeah. His days are numbered, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Sure. I’m pretty sure I heard that at the end of Book 3, too. But now you’re like, “MVP of the Week, Dumbledore!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, he does turn his back on Harry for most of Order of the Phoenix, so there’s that.

Andrew: That’s because he’s got a new support circle. He’s got Sirius for a limited time. He’s got Mrs. Diggory. He’s got lots of people.

Laura: Well, I hope you’re ready for that Dumbledore lie count to go through the roof next book.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right. Well, speaking of Dumbledore, this is what Micah wanted at the top of this episode: [imitating Dumbledore] “Another book, gone.” Congrats, team. We finished another book in our Chapter by Chapter rereads as we get ready for the Harry Potter TV show. This is why we’re doing this; it’s been the plan all along. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Micah: Last week’s Quizzitch question: What does Harry ask Viktor Krum when they shake hands before going to the Hogwarts Express? And the correct answer is if Durmstrang has a new headmaster yet.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: That’s just when you don’t know what to say in conversation and you say something that’s just really awkward.

Andrew: Yeah. “So, uh…”

Laura: Been there. [laughs]

Micah: Correct answers were submitted by Captain Athena; Buff Daddy; Bort Voldemort; Lloyd the Kiwi; Ravenpuff from Sweden; Empty chair of Igor Karkaroff with sign that says, “I gone Farfaroff”…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … Where in the world is Count Ravioli… good question. SassyRavenclaw43; Find someone who looks at you the way Ron looks at Viktor Krum…

Laura: True.

Micah: … Jiggly Jane; Who knew the counterjinx was just Unjellify?!; and Elizabeth K.

Andrew: Nobody was wondering where Rita was, but people are wondering where Count Ravioli is. I think that’s really sweet. Has everybody checked their nearest jar? Any bugs trapped in a jar? Any ravioli trapped in a jar? Maybe that’s where the count is.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: All right, next week’s Quizzitch question…

Andrew: [laughs] Without Eric here, I’m adding the banter to make this segment longer.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: With what 2006 movie was the first trailer for Order of the Phoenix released?

Andrew: Ooh!

Micah: I like this question. Of course, you can head on over to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch and submit your answer, and we’ll respond to it in, what, three weeks? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, we’ll see when our next Quizzitch is. Probably not next week.

Micah: No, you have a little bit of time. It’s probably going to be that Muggle Mail episode.

Andrew: Yeah. This show is brought to you by Muggles like you; we are an independent podcast, but unlike Fred and George, we haven’t been offered Galleons by Harry to run our business, so your support is of the utmost importance. In fact, it is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast 19 years later. So here are the two best ways to help us out: First of all, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, and recent bonus MuggleCast episodes cover the recent theme park announcements out of Universal and the major news concerning the recent Harry Potter illustrated editions. And then for even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold that I just mentioned, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, another new physical gift each year, a video message from one of the four of us, our private Facebook and Discord groups where you can hang out with us and fellow Harry Potter fans, and a whole lot more. Again, we couldn’t do this without you, so thank you for sticking with us over the last 19 years and counting. And if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and also help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and much more about the show. Thanks, everybody, for listening. [imitating Dumbledore] Another book, gone. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye. I’m Andrew. Goodbye. [laughs]

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: [imitating Southern Hagrid] And I’m Hagrid.

Micah: That was good.

Andrew: Oh, thanks.

Micah: Choo-choo.

Transcript #669

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #669, The Wizarding World is Fudged (GOF Chapter 36, The Parting of the Ways)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, witness the beginning of the end for Cornelius Fudge’s political career as we tackle Chapter 36, “The Parting of the Ways.” [laughs] This chapter title is actually kind of appropriate for this episode, because we’re talking about the parting of the ways in our little news block, right, Eric? Something dramatic happened over the last week.

Eric: Yes, yes. There are many partings of the ways underway, and the most notable of which in news this week is the parting of MinaLima – that’s Miraphora Mina and Eduardo Lima, the graphic designers of many things in the Wizarding World – with Scholastic’s print editions of their interactive MinaLima versions of the Harry Potter books. They have done three, and this week it came to light that they have “not been commissioned for a future MinaLima book, and will not be doing the rest of the Harry Potter series in MinaLima edition.”

Andrew: Yeah, so there have been two illustrated series running right now. We’ve had the Jim Kay Harry Potter illustrated editions; they’re up to Book 5, but he announced, I guess, last year or two years ago now, that he’s left and somebody else is supposed to be coming in, but we haven’t heard anything about Half-Blood Prince. And then at the same time, there have been these MinaLima editions, and now Scholastic doesn’t want them back. And there was another dramatic turn, because Scholastic announced that they’re going to continue with this series, but without MinaLima? They’re MinaLima editions.

Eric: I mean, we’re talking about the people that first designed Harry’s Hogwarts acceptance letter in the movie; this is how far back the relationship goes between MinaLima and Harry Potter. Every Daily Prophet article you’ve ever seen, the fun font, the crazy whole… everything in the wizarding world is MinaLima. There is no MinaLima edition without MinaLima! There’s not even barely any live action Harry Potter without MinaLima! So this is really shocking.

Andrew: It is, it is. I think they’ve done some theme park work too. When they announced the Ministry of Magic land a couple weeks ago, I think MinaLima said they’d been collaborating, so they’re deeply involved in everything Harry Potter.

Eric: All the signage, all the typography, all the… the entire look and feel of the wizarding world, in short…

Micah: … is them. They worked on Fantastic Beasts, and they have their own shop in London. And it’s curious, because how much will they continue to do with the series moving forward? Is this just the tipping point? I just don’t see it going beyond Prisoner of Azkaban. You can’t continue this particular editions of the books without them. [laughs] It’s just ridiculous, as you were saying before, and I know we’re going to talk more about it.

Eric: Yeah, I’m glad you asked, Micah, about other projects as well and the status, because that is actually the topic of this week’s bonus MuggleCast, which will be released for Wizarding World – no – MuggleCast Gold members, and also on our Patreon to patrons.

Andrew: Yeah, and if you’re not already a patron, you can purchase this specific bonus MuggleCast for $3 at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We announced this new element with last week’s bonus MuggleCast as well, in which we were talking about the Ministry of Magic land at Universal Orlando. And yeah, we’re very excited about being able to offer individual bonus MuggleCasts now, if maybe you don’t want to commit to a subscription, but you do want to hear us talk about, let’s say, this dramatic MinaLima news. There’s a lot more to talk about here, and we will when we have more time in bonus MuggleCast this week. Thanks, everybody. No matter how you support us, we really appreciate your support.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So now let’s get into Goblet of Fire Chapter 36, “The Parting of the Ways.” Back to the parting of the ways in the original books. And we’ll start like we always do, with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: Fudge…

Micah: … makes…

Laura: … disastrous…

Andrew: … decisions…

Micah: … about…

Eric: … Lord…

Laura: … Voldemort.

Andrew: Per. Fect.

Laura: A plus. Outstanding, y’all!

Eric: We completed a sentence!

Laura: Very handily, by the way.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So we proceed on the way to Dumbledore’s office, where Harry is despondent. He’s out of it. He’s having to sort of relive… he knows he’s going to be asked to relive the events of the graveyard formally, once he gets up to Dumbledore’s office. And he’s in really bad shape, and we sympathize, and I think we’ll talk about Dumbledore sympathizing, but for me, especially having read this series, you know that it is imperative that as soon as possible, Dumbledore gets the information out of Harry. Dumbledore has not been able to… all this stuff’s been going on with Barty Crouch, Jr.; Dumbledore has not been able to learn what exactly happened in the graveyard, and he’s got a whole organization in the Order of the Phoenix to run, and so he needs to know as soon as possible all the information so that he can act on it. But it means asking Harry to relive his trauma, and not even after a good night’s sleep; he has to do it now.

Andrew: Yeah, it makes sense why Dumbledore is pushing him. He was just completely caught off guard. He doesn’t know what Voldemort is going to do next. He doesn’t know if Voldemort is going to be making a move sooner rather than later, so he needs this information ASAP. And then there’s poor Harry, who… the first words out of his mouth in this chapter are asking where Cedric’s parents are. That’s all he’s thinking about right now, and I found that so sweet.

Laura: Yeah. Something I want us to watch throughout this discussion is Fawkes, because I know we talked about this when we covered Priori Incantatem, but I really think that Fawkes knows what happened in the graveyard. So here at the top of the chapter, he flies to Harry, lands on his knee, and just stares at him peacefully, and there are a couple of other beats throughout this chapter where Fawkes does things to connect with Harry and I think give Harry some courage to be able to relive everything he has to relive. And I think it’s further evidence that there’s some kind of connection that Fawkes has to what happened in the graveyard, on the basis of Harry’s and Voldemort’s wands having Fawkes’s feathers as wand cores, so I just want to watch it.

Eric: What’s funny about that is Fawkes withholds his tears that would heal Harry until after Harry has confessed. It’s almost like, “You don’t get to be well until you get through this.” [laughs]

Micah: What a tease.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: He’s sitting right on him! And it’s not until after Harry has relived anything that he flies down and just cries on his ankle and fixes it. But Harry is limping; he’s like, “I’m in real bad shape, Fawkes,” and Fawkes’s presence is heartening to him, but it’s like, just heal the kid!

Micah: I think Fawkes was just happy to see Harry, and it probably felt nice to have something to do instead of just sit on the perch all day.

Eric: Oh my God, he’s always on that perch.

Andrew: Watching Dumbledore do a whole lot of nothing. Gossip with the portraits.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Until it’s his time to burst into flames and do it all over again.

Eric: Yeah. Oh, the humdrum of a repetitious life. We’re nothing if not pattern followers. So what Dumbledore says to Harry to kick things off… and there’s a touching moment we’ll get to with Sirius, because Sirius Black in human form is up there and is able to lend his support as well. What Dumbledore says to Harry to get him to start talking is, “If I thought I could help you by putting you into an enchanted sleep and allowing you to postpone the moment when you would have to think about what has happened tonight, I would do it. But I know better. Numbing the pain for a while will make it worse when you finally feel it. You have shown bravery beyond anything I could have expected of you. I ask you to demonstrate your courage one more time. I ask you to tell us what happened.” Andrew, I don’t know why I didn’t go to you for that Dumbledore impersonation.

Andrew: I know, I was ready to go. [tearfully] It’s fine. It’s okay. [sniffs]

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. We’ll quote him again, and we’ll get you the next one. But do we find this to be very sincere and genuine for Dumbledore? The way he put it is kind of nice.

Andrew: Yeah, he understands what Harry is feeling right now. And we were just talking about how time is of the essence, so he has a delicate line to walk right now. He has to be aware of what Harry is going through, but at the same time, he has to know what happened and act on that information. And I think a part of this paragraph is a good lesson in whether you should be holding in your feelings or letting them out. It’s going to help Harry, ultimately, to let his feelings out now and get it all off his chest.

Eric: Do we agree with that premise that holding something in, to your point, Andrew, will make it worse when you finally feel it? Because I think I’ve been in situations where it felt like at least pushing something all off wasn’t immediately detrimental. There are so many things only that you can deal with in a certain amount of time.

Laura: I think it depends on the severity and the urgency. And I feel like here we’re talking about trauma, but we’re also talking about the fact that Harry bore witness to a crime, and an officer of the law I am not, but an avid watcher of Law and Order: SVU I am.

Eric: Laura, you’re pretty much a cop.

Laura: Ooh.

Eric: I mean, an expert.

Micah: Unsolved Mysteries right in your backyard, just a couple of seasons ago.

Laura: Exactly. So what I’m saying is with this kind of thing, it tends to be really imperative to get statements from people as soon as possible, because memory is a fickle thing. Anytime you remember something, you’re not actually remembering the thing; you’re just remembering the last time you remembered it. So if Harry doesn’t tell this story now, there’s a potential that he can lose some of the details, and every detail of what happened to him is super imperative.

Eric: Maybe that’s why Fawkes refrains from healing Harry, because the pain in his leg is going to keep him going or propel him through. It’s why they don’t give him the potion for dreamless sleep until afterwards; it would be too easy to retreat from this moment. But like you’re saying, Laura, I didn’t even think of it. It’s almost like 12 Angry Men, any such thing, witness testimony is going to be less reliable the longer it goes.

Micah: Definitely. But this is the same person, though, that even though in this moment comes across as a very caring individual, ignores Harry for most of the entire next book. So it’s somewhat ironic in this moment that he’s telling him to feel his feelings and to get it all out there, because truthfully, Dumbledore needs the information. That’s what it comes down to. Does he care about Harry? I think he does, but he then turns around and for an entire term chooses to ignore this poor boy and not give him any attention after having gone through this trauma at the end of the fourth year.

Eric: That’s true. He kind of, after this tender, tender moment, peaces the F out for an entire year.

Andrew: Maybe he’s thinking, “All right, Sirius is closer to Harry now, so maybe he’s kind of the replacement.” He’s the sub for Dumbledore while Dumbledore is trying to work out the mystery.

Micah: But Dumbledore actively ignores Harry, and I know we’ll talk more about it when we do our Order of the Phoenix reread. So I, to some extent, think that Dumbledore selfishly reserves this moment for himself and Sirius in part. If he knew that Harry only had one go in him to retell what had happened, shouldn’t more witnesses have been present?

Eric: You think like Fudge?

Micah: Well, we see how Fudge reacts [laughs] later on in this chapter.

Eric: I know; when you say more witnesses, who do you think? Who should who else should hear this first go-around?

Micah: I was going to bring this up when we talk about Fudge, but what about other Ministry officials? What about Aurors?

Andrew: Well, who’s there now? I think we still have to keep in mind that we’re in this chaotic situation not long after Harry brought back Cedric. So who is around to hear this information? I agree, maybe another professor, because at least they’re on site.

Eric: True. Well, you know how in Book 6 when they’re going into memories, Dumbledore has that very self-aggrandizing comment, like, “It’s cool; you’re going to see this one in HD because it’s my memory, which tends to be better than all the other memories. It won’t be foggy. It won’t be anything.” Dumbledore is a good receptacle for this story. He’s the man who’s foremost involved in the destruction of Voldemort efforts, he’s the leader of the Order of the Phoenix, the only one who’s going to actually get this done for everybody. But also, he has a decent… his memory… he’s fit. He’s mentally fit. And so if there are only two witnesses, one of them is going to be Dumbledore. I think that’s okay, because he’ll take that information that he gets and run with it. But the other witness here is Sirius Black, who demonstrates an uncharacteristic excellence in godfathering. He gets a lot of flack directed at him from us and Molly in the next book specifically, but in this moment, Sirius is perfect. He is putting his hand on Harry’s shoulder, and he’s asking, “Dumbledore, can’t this wait? Can’t we get Harry some rest?” He is an active participant in the conversation, listening to Harry tell this harrowing story. He’s just there for him. And I’ve got to really hand it to Sirius for being there, caring so much, and I just really loved reading about this, because Sirius and Harry, unfortunately, get so few interactions even over the course of the next year.

Andrew: Yeah, and if Harry weren’t so traumatized right now, he may also really appreciate the fact that Sirius is on site in human form at Hogwarts. That’s a big deal for him to be back at Hogwarts, as is emphasized later in this chapter.

Eric: And got to give credit to Dumbledore a little bit, too, for first of all being comfortable enough with Sirius to have him here, but almost intentionally having a family member of Harry’s here. It’s not the Dursleys, but it’s also not Molly; it is a proper straight godfather/godchild. It’s just what you would want in these types of situations of reliving… you would want the closest family member to be there.

Micah: Exactly. It’s what you would expect in this moment.

Andrew: And Brock, who’s listening live on our Patreon right now, says, “I’m not usually a Sirius stan, but this is his best scene in the series. MVP.” Wow. Wanted to get that in there for the Sirius super fan on the panel, Eric.

Eric: That heartens me. Thank you. And I think that the fifth book stuff is character assassination.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Let’s remember this moment in time for Sirius.

Laura: Hey, literally and metaphorically.

Andrew: Yikes. Too soon, Laura.

Laura: [laughs] Sorry.

Micah: I don’t know if Eric can go on with the discussion now.

Andrew: That took me a second.

Eric: I’m going to need a minute.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, while you’re recuperating, I want to add that Dumbledore has what Harry suspects is a gleam of triumph in his eye after Harry recounts Voldemort using his blood because that would make him, Voldemort, stronger, and Voldemort was able to touch his face. And this is a big deal; there was a lot of debate about the gleam of triumph. I was excited reading this little note in the book because of how this was looked at prior to the final book coming out, that gleam of triumph moment.

Eric: Oh, yeah. As you say, it launched a thousand theories.

Andrew: Yeah, it really did.

Eric: And it isn’t until later we find out exactly what it is, but it’s fascinating because as Harry is reliving this, he’s still very acute. He needs to be; he needs to recognize this gleam of triumph because no one else can tell us that it has happened, but it’s fun to see that Dumbledore sometimes can’t even contain his excitement. It’s so uncharacteristic for Dumbledore to be excited about something that happened to Harry during his traumatic experience, but that little glint there shows you that there’s more coming and there is hope.

Andrew: And let’s Max that, please. Let’s get that gleam of triumph captured in the Harry Potter TV series.

Laura: Please.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Eric: Let’s get a consistent Dumbledore through all the years. Well, we’re going to continue our discussion for this chapter, but first, let’s hear from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: We just talked about the gleam of triumph in Dumbledore’s eye. This chapter is also the first time that we learn that Harry and Voldemort’s wand not only has the same core – we’ve known phoenix feather – but that the phoenix feather core comes from Fawkes specifically, and this is a revelation. I don’t think we’ve ever really dove into about how it is that this could have come to be, but there is a quote here. Who would like to read it from the book?

Andrew: Me, me, me! I put on my Dumbledore glasses.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, yes! Yes, of course, of course. You’ve got this.

Andrew: My half-moon spectacles.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: “‘Exactly,’ said Dumbledore. ‘Harry’s wand and Voldemort’s wand share cores. Each of them contains a feather from the tail of the same phoenix. This phoenix, in fact.’

‘My wand’s feather came from Fawkes?’ Harry said, amazed.

‘Yes. Mr. Ollivander wrote to tell me you had bought the second wand, the moment you left his shop four years ago.'”

Micah: So Ollivander is Dumbledore’s pawn. That’s what I took away from this.

Andrew: I love that Ollivander wrote to him straight away.

Eric: That’s his bestie! He’s got him on speed dial.

Andrew: “Dumbledore, you’ll never guess what happened at the shop today.”

Laura: I’m sure the reason for that was because Ollivander knew what that meant, right? And so him writing to Dumbledore wasn’t like, “Hey, fun fact: I just sold Fawkes’s other wand.” It’s like, “Hey, so guess who got that wand? Yeah, Harry Potter. Kid that the other owner of the brother wand tried to kill. That probably means something, D.”

Andrew: [imitating Ollivander] “Very curious.”

Eric: What’s funny is because they know that wands that are brothers won’t work properly against each other, but these are literally the two people that are the most destined to fight each other, is Voldemort and Harry. So I wonder if Ollivander was like, “Hey, just so you know, there’s a no return policy, and there’s no warranty on this. These wands are not going to work together, and I’m not going to be around when it goes down.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And Dumbledore is like, “Oh, don’t worry about it.” But really, why Fawkes? It’s an interesting choice. There’s only one phoenix that we ever hear about in this whole series, and it’s Fawkes. Apart from being just another layer in which Harry and Voldemort are connected, why or how do you think this was the choice that was made for the series by the author? Does it seem realistic if phoenixes are so rare for them to only offer two of their tail feathers? Certainly, if phoenixes have a renewable source of… they keep growing back, you could supply infinite phoenix tail feathers to Ollivander for wands.

Andrew: Is it for sure that Fawkes has only ever supplied two? I mean, they share the same wand core, but does that mean that Fawkes hasn’t given out any others?

Eric: The line from Ollivander I’m hearing in the movie is [imitating Ollivander] “The phoenix whose tail feather resides in your wand gave another feather, just one other.”

Andrew: [laughs] Ah, of course, right. Okay.

Laura: I was wondering if Dumbledore donated them.

Micah: They’re just all over the floor in his office?

Eric: That’s chaos. That is utter chaos, for him to like, “Here you go; don’t tell me what happens with it. This will be fun.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Birds do shed feathers, though, so I could see maybe Fawkes was molting or something, and Dumbledore just grabbed a couple.

Eric: Dumbledore was like, “What am I going to do with all these damn feathers? I know! Bet that Garrick would like these.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Could it be customary to donate a couple of the feathers to the local wand shop? As to how these two ended up with the Fawkes ones… destiny? The prophecy? Trelawney might have something to say about this.

Eric: Yeah, I just find it so interesting. It doesn’t come up… it rarely is… what are the circumstances by which Dumbledore specifically would have loaned Fawkes specifically for two specific feathers that go to these two specific…? It’s just interesting, especially because Fantastic Beasts, the film franchise, expands on the Dumbledore/phoenix backstory by saying essentially that the Dumbledore family has a special link to them, and we’ve known this for a while; not only does Dumbledore and Fawkes’s relationship seem extra magical, but Dumbledore’s Patronus is a phoenix, and often they’re seen together in battle. It’s this whole thing, and so I just find it interesting because maybe there was something else that we were going to get, either between Dumbledore and Fawkes and Harry, or Dumbledore and Fawkes and anybody, because he was telling Newt all about the phoenix, and that seemed like it might come to something else in the future.

Micah: It’s also possible that Fawkes was a wild phoenix at the time that these feathers were taken by Ollivander. I’m sure Ollivander goes out in the field to get some of his wand cores from time to time, and his wand wood from time to time. He seems like a self-sufficient individual. I know it’s easier to think that Dumbledore handed them over to him, or owled them over to him, but we don’t see Fawkes with Dumbledore around the time when Tom Riddle would have been getting his wand, at least in Fantastic Beasts.

Eric: Right, and that’s in the ’30s. That would have been the early ’30s even, probably the next movie era, had there been… I mean, we know the series is just [imitating David Yates] “parked” right now.

Micah: It’s over. [laughs]

Eric: But yeah, very interesting experience for sure.

Laura: With things like this where there’s not a clear answer, I almost wonder if there’s more of a larger cosmic answer, and I’m thinking about the centaurs and how it seems like they have a higher level view into the fate of the universe and why certain things happen the way they do than wizards do. So I honestly wonder if Harry could theoretically take this question to Firenze and be like, “Was this all fate? Was it part of a larger plan, if you will, for us to end up with these two wand cores?” Because there really is no resolution to this.

Eric: Right. We know that in general, phoenix song strikes fear into the hearts of the immoral, and emboldens Harry every time he sees him, but that almost seems like it would work against Tom Riddle, who at that age we’re told, supposedly, had a choice to go evil or not. So it’s just an interesting thing that was interesting to focus on. But Harry is able to wrap up his tale, and he finally gets what he thinks is going to be the reprieve, because they go down to the hospital wing, where we’re met with Harry’s other parental figure, Molly Weasley, who comes running up to them and is immediately kept at bay. If you thought Dumbledore facing off against Voldemort in the next book is hot, watch this Dumbledore stop Molly from asking any questions and go, “No, no, no. He needs rest.” Because she wants to know… well, she just wants to to hold Harry, I think, and Dumbledore kind of overreacts to her and says, “No questions, please,” and she immediately goes, “Didn’t you hear, guys? No questions!” almost as a… what’s the word? She just reacts to defensively, almost, but ignoring that it’s kind of an affront to her that anything even needed to be said.

Laura: She’s deflecting.

Eric: Deflecting! There it is.

Laura: Yeah, 100%

Andrew: I think he anticipated Molly’s reaction correctly. She is a mother to him. She’s going to have a lot of questions; she’s naturally going to want to ask them immediately. So I really like Dumbledore taking charge here and saying, “Please, no questions right now. He’s already been through a lot. He’s just told the story to me, and we’ll get the information to you, but now just let him rest.” I mean, we were talking earlier about Sirius being a good father figure here. I think Dumbledore is an excellent father figure throughout this chapter.

Eric: It is interesting, though, to jump from Sirius, who we can praise for his role, and really to Molly, who… I think that the inclusion of both of these parental figures in this chapter is no coincidence. I think that it excellently foreshadows… I know they’re kind of rivals in the next book, Molly and Sirius, for Harry’s parental guardianship, but they both do genuinely care about Harry, and that’s clear in this chapter. Even before Harry lays down in the hospital bed, Molly is smoothing it unnecessarily; that’s the quote from the book. So they both just deeply care about Harry, and that’s good. That’s good to have. Like I said, in these moments where you’re having to recover from this huge trauma, it’s really lovely to have people who care about you by your side.

Micah: And it’s something that Harry has not really experienced in his life growing up with the Dursleys. I like the connection here that you make to Order of the Phoenix and how we see both Sirius and Molly care for him in their own very distinct ways in the fifth book.

Eric: So I think it’s time to talk about the political career of one Cornelius Oswald Fudge, which in the document I’ve titled “Onward to Hell, Complete with a Hand Basket.” It just goes awfully wrong. Harry finally gets his potion, he’s being put into a dreamless sleep, but it’s short lived. Unfortunately, Harry wakes to loud voices and McGonagall and Fudge burst in; Dumbledore comes in. What has happened is that Fudge, in his infinite wisdom, brought a Dementor with him into the castle to meet with Barty Crouch, Jr., ostensibly for protection, by the way. Ostensibly for Fudge’s own protection. And I think that’s probably right, but not in the way we think. As soon as the Dementor enters the room, it immediately goes over to Barty Crouch, Jr. and performs the Dementor’s Kiss, sucking his soul out through his mouth, the book says. It’s just awful. So there’s a lot going on here. First and foremost, what do we think of Fudge bringing the Dementor with him to interrogate a witness? Kind of unusual, wouldn’t we say?

Micah: Highly suspicious. On some end, Fudge needs a Dementor to confront a subdued Barty Crouch, Jr.? It’s not like Barty Crouch is just hanging out with a wand and able to react to Fudge in any way he sees fit; he is definitely restricted in some way. And I’m really surprised that he doesn’t alert anybody from the Ministry. There isn’t an Auror available to come to Hogwarts? Presumably, the Dementor is at Azkaban and has to travel from however far that is away to come to Hogwarts.

Eric: Oh, God.

Micah: This isn’t year three where they’re all just casually hanging out around the grounds.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: So I think if Fudge was accountable to anyone, this would have been a serious dereliction of duty.

Eric: My God.

Micah: He’s taking the law into his own hands here. Who knows if he actually thinks that the Dementor is going to perform the Kiss, but the fact that he was so ignorant of this… and this speaks to who he is as a character; it speaks to his name origin of “Fudge” and just ambiguity and faking a lot of things as he goes about his career. So I just thought this whole thing, reading it back, would never fly in today’s day and age.

Laura: No. It is fishy, and I think you’re right, Micah: At best, Fudge is just incompetent and in way over his head. At worst, he intentionally did this, because we have to remember the Triwizard Tournament is a Ministry-sanctioned event, and all of this happened under the Ministry’s nose. We can’t forget that we’re not just talking about the return of Voldemort; we’re talking about every suspicious thing that has been happening all year that Fudge is well aware of, by the way. The disappearance of Bertha Jorkins, Crouch Senior suddenly becoming too ill to come to work and now nobody can find him, etc., etc. He’s turned a blind eye to all of it, and I think he’s probably afraid of being found out.

Eric: He can’t handle the truth. His immediate instinct is to suppress the truth, which has already gotten out. I think that the biggest takeaway… I love the idea that Fudge… that it would have taken some time to get a Dementor. That’s a great point; I never thought about that. They aren’t just lingering on the grounds. There should be an Auror. It’s the Triwizard Tournament; you never know what’s going to happen. There should be some capable adult wizards. And to your point, Micah, he is subdued. Dumbledore himself Summoned those ropes that are now binding him. Barty Crouch, Jr. couldn’t be more unarmed. And so not only does this serve to underscore how not in control of the Dementors a human can be, but just how Fudge is not on the right side of this in any way or manner of speaking.

Andrew: He fudged a witness interview and then doesn’t believe Harry and Dumbledore. I mean, you would think that somebody in their right mind would be more inclined to believe Harry and Dumbledore after just destroying – accidentally, allegedly – their key witness. I mean, there might be a crackpot theory here that he purposely brought the Dementor in to ruin BCJ’s mind so that he could build a stronger case against Dumbledore and Harry claiming that Voldemort was back.

Eric: I don’t even think it’s a crackpot thing.

Laura: No.

Eric: I think that’s entirely plausible. It really… Dumbledore, even in conversation in this chapter, is giving him the benefit of the doubt, but it’s almost like side eye at the same time, where he’s like, “Well, Cornelius, I’m not against you; I’m against Voldemort. As long as you’re against Voldemort, we’re on the same side, right? Right? Right?” And Fudge is just going, “Absolutely! This is just awful!” It just is crazy.

Micah: He’s outnumbered in that room, though, as well, and I think that pressure starts to build on him a little bit. But I agree, Laura, he’s trying to cover his own ass here, and in doing so, just sets in motion a sequence of events that ultimately is his own undoing.

Eric: It really is the choice between what is right and what is easy here, in a way. It would be very convenient for Fudge to pretend that nothing happened, sweep it all under the rug – which is exactly what he does – refuses to even get testimony from Barty Crouch, Jr. He doesn’t want to hear it. He doesn’t want to believe it. He doesn’t want to have to deal with it, but that’s distinctly not what is correct or right to be doing. A murder has been committed. He’s causing so much trouble that – Micah, to your point – will come back and bite him in the ass, but also the wizarding world, which rely on its leader for the truth so that they can accurately guard and take steps to prevent… prevention is huge. Awareness is the number one step. I’m getting flashbacks to the COVID quarantine area, where information was crucial that we should have had to be able to protect ourselves and weren’t being given it from the top. Fudge not only is destroying his own future, but the future of so many innocent people by choosing what is easy.

Laura: Yeah, and I think there’s an interesting parallel there to Barty Crouch, Sr. as well. He totally throws his son under the bus to save his own political optics, and in the end, he jailbreaks his son out of Azkaban. He knows his son is dangerous and a supporter of Voldemort, and knows what the consequences could be, but he does it anyway because it was the easiest thing to do to I guess bring peace to his wife in her dying days. So it’s just very interesting to see the parallels in these political leaders in the wizarding world.

Eric: What’s really heartening to see is that every person in the room that’s witnessing this absolute catastrophe – this horror show, this insane moment – every single person comes forward and attempts to give more evidence and actually support Dumbledore and Harry. This isn’t right now a Dumbledore versus Fudge situation; this is Fudge versus the truth that everyone is telling him. And it’s really important, I think, to stress how many people are attempting to tell the truth, and Fudge is not hearing it. Fudge is choosing to believe that Harry is unstable. He says Barty Crouch, Jr. is a maniac; that’s why he did everything, not because he’s a Death Eater, because he’s a maniac! And it’s just very easy to blame someone’s mental health instead of… there are serious issues you’ve overlooked as minister.

Andrew: And speaking of mental health, imagine what Harry is going through right now. He just experienced this traumatic event, he’s trying to tell the truth, get it all off his chest, and the Minister of Magic is not believing him. At least Dumbledore is very firmly on his side here, so that might help him a little bit, but I would be enraged if I were in Harry’s shoes.

Eric: That’s a great point. There’s an excerpt from the book where it’s like, “Harry always assumed Fudge was a little weird or a little incompetent, blustering even,” but here he’s actively choosing to go bad, basically. And yeah, it’s crazy to think somebody that you always thought was aloof and harmless is actually causing the most harm.

Micah: It just goes back to his incompetence as a leader. Even if he were to believe that Voldemort is back, I don’t think he would know what to do in that particular situation, and he is struggling mightily here. He has a track record of sending people to Azkaban, convicting people with no evidence, and this is another one of those situations where he’s essentially sentencing Barty Crouch, Jr. to death without hearing his side of the story, without hearing any other piece of information other than that he was the one responsible for it. So you’d think that in this case, he would get some kind of fair trial; that’s not even afforded to him in this situation.

Laura: Yeah. Again, too. That’s the other thing; he didn’t get a fair trial the first time, either. There’s no due process in the wizarding world.

Micah: Right.

Eric: Why don’t these other characters force Fudge to see the truth? And the reason I ask this… choice is very important, obviously. Choice, free will, very, very important. But there are magical means as close to them as Snape’s pocket that would unequivocally prove that this is not… Fudge wants to turn this into a “He said, he said” thing, but it’s not that at all. There are ways in which either the Pensieve, which is just up in Dumbledore’s office, or Veritaserum… whatever it is, there are means that cannot be faked or fudged, if you will, and they could prove to Fudge beyond a shadow of a doubt. To make it also his choice to completely destroy the wizarding world if he says no, and they’re still trying to reason with him. Why don’t they employ some of these other magical means to undercut his argument further?

Andrew: Well, he is the top dog. Is that what you were going to say, Micah?

Micah: You can’t force someone to believe something that they don’t want to believe. You can’t force them to see something they don’t want to see, and that’s this moment. I mean, I would say, too, isn’t there some sort of magic that can trace back who killed Cedric? Like, what wand was used to use a Killing Curse on this poor boy.

Andrew: Have you heard of Priori Incantatem? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, something. Fudge is just… he shines through in a really negative way in this chapter in order to set up his role in Order of the Phoenix. That’s what this is all about. This is his setup for how he and the Ministry choose to behave. There’s even mentions of when he talks to Dumbledore about how he’s always let him run his own ship here, hiring werewolves, and that’s to set up Umbridge for Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Yeah. It’s just crazy to see that Fudge has some intentional ignorance, but an internal logic nevertheless that says, “As long as there is an alternate fact about what happened tonight in the graveyard, as long as there’s a single alternate fact that is more convenient,” that is the one that Fudge is going to latch on to. And Rita Skeeter helped it along; thanks for publishing all that crap over the year and all this other stuff. As long as there’s something for his mind to go to that is easier or more convenient than the truth of Voldemort being back, he’s going to go and he’s going to act on that, much to the suffering of everyone else, the people he’s supposed to be saving as Minister for Magic. So something else happens: Harry warns Fudge directly about Lucius Malfoy, something that is I think… I mean, Fudge has next to no reaction except the name Lucius Malfoy, the fact that Harry just saw him in the graveyard, is told to Fudge, and Fudge is in his state of denial. He says, “No, no, he’s made donations to good causes, whatever…”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And now we’re just actively seeing the wall come up. This is the shield that… because Fudge continues to do business with Lucius Malfoy in the next book. On the way to the hearing, Harry meets with Fudge, and Lucius is there, and Fudge continues to be in the… he puts himself and everyone else… the security of the wizarding world is in danger when you have a Death Eater that you’re chums with who’s allowed to still come to the government and work for it.

Andrew: This was one of the most frustrating parts for me reading this, just knowing that Harry truly did just see Lucius and several others. I think he mentioned Macnair as well; he mentioned Avery, Crabbe, Goyle… all these people were actually there, and Fudge is like, “No, no, no, no, no! One’s working for the Ministry; that can’t be true!”

Eric: “La la la la!”

Andrew: Yeah, it’s like, “Oh, really? People can’t be liars? People can’t be double agents?” It’s just so frustrating how Fudge is so in denial.

Eric: You want to know the most frustrating part of that? Is he said these were all Death Eater names that were acquitted 13 years ago, which means there was an accusation. There was an accusation at some point of those Death Eaters, every single one of them being a Death Eater, and they were acquitted. That already speaks to malfeasance; that already speaks to somebody in the Ministry convincing the Ministry that the bad guys are okay. The idea that they were acquitted of being Death Eaters, and Harry just saw them – hello – is bad.

Micah: And I’m sure many of them not just financially support charities, but financially support Fudge, and that could be a big part of this that we just don’t know about.

Andrew: Good point.

Micah: I still can’t believe that this whole situation has played out at Hogwarts, and maybe it’s happening off page, but that there’s no other Ministry officials that are there, that it’s just Fudge himself. And who is he claiming murdered Cedric? Barty Crouch, Jr.? There wasn’t any proof of that. And as we were saying, he doesn’t care much for evidence. But Cedric’s parents, who are they being told murdered their son?

Eric: The thing is, at the end of the day, there’s no accountability for…

Micah: The sphinx?

Eric: [laughs] Right, right. Well, we knew in the Triwizard Tournament that people could die. It’s like, why is this even being held at a school?

Andrew: Fudge’s whole excuse is he was a raving lunatic, BCJ. That’s why he killed Cedric. That’s all. Moving on.

[Ad break]

Eric: Something that shocked the hell out of me in reading this chapter is Snape actually does something incredibly brave, incredibly heroic, therefore justifying the name of Harry’s child one day.

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: Snape comes forward and says, “This is known as the Dark Mark. It’s on my arm. Karkaroff saw it and fled. Every Death Eater has one.” He introduces Fudge for the first time – apparently, this is the best kept secret in all of Death Eater land – that they all have Dark Marks, and Snape rolls up his sleeve and shows it to Fudge, and Fudge still won’t believe. Nice try, Snape, though, because that is amazing. I think that’s a truly heroic moment for Snape.

Laura: I agree.

Micah: I think Voldemort could show up at this moment and Fudge still wouldn’t believe that he’s back.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: He’d be like, “Ralph Fiennes? What are you doing here?”

Eric: [laughs] “I loved you in In Bruges!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it is nice to see… I guess Snape recognizes just the tough situation Dumbledore and Harry are in at this moment that the Minister for Magic is not believing him, so he needs to step up and do something.

Eric: Well, right, and who better than to say the Death Eaters are back than a former Death Eater? And that’s the thing that shocks me the most, is it is the right thing for Snape to do. Snape is literally adding defense to Harry Potter, [laughs] and Dumbledore’s story. Against all of his, I think, natural inclination, Snape is stepping up and doing the right thing here.

Andrew: Michelle, who’s listening live right now, is bringing up a good point: Fudge would be like, “Voldemort had a nose, so that clearly is not Voldemort.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “I don’t know who you brought to this office, but it ain’t Voldy.”

Eric: Then you’ve got to get into the whole fact that Peter Pettigrew is missing a finger and so they couldn’t generate the nose, and it was this whole thing, and he’s like, “Peter Pettigrew, what?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But anyway, once it becomes clear that Fudge will not ever be swayed, Dumbledore is struggling to keep Fudge’s attention. And partly, I think, to get it out there, and partly to display how much, to prove how much Dumbledore has thought about this and planned for this day, he starts to tell Fudge what he must do. And I think it’s reasonable; it comes across as very level-headed. But I wonder if we think maybe either now is not the time, or if Dumbledore goes too far in saying, “Now you need to do this as Minister. You should be alerting the right people. You should be sending envoys to the giants…” “Envoys to the giants?!” Does Dumbledore overstep?

Andrew: I don’t think so. I think he’s learned from the past and he knows Voldemort and the way that he operates, and he wants to get his defense systems up as much as quickly as possible; both sides will want to. So Dumbledore understands that timing is everything, and he has been fearful of Voldemort for a while now returning, so he’s had a lot of time to think this through, and thank God he’s already thought about it, because Fudge is just refusing to follow through with any of these plans that Dumbledore is suggesting. And the giant suggestion, of course, sets up Hagrid’s journey in Book 5. There’s a lot of Book 5 set up in this chapter, which I love.

Eric: Yeah, which is really clever. It also plays into Fudge’s prejudice; his prejudice is now able to come out. He’s like “The giants? We can’t trust them!” Or really talking… I think pure-blood stuff comes up at one point.

Micah: I’m not really sure the hand that Dumbledore is trying to play here. In one vein, I could say that he’s out kicking his coverage a bit. The cart is a little bit before the horse. We know Fudge is in denial, but there had to have been other steps that he could have taken to make him see reason, maybe not in this moment, but certainly later on. So to me, it’s almost like Dumbledore is taunting Fudge. He knows he’s not going to get rid of the Dementors; he just strolled into Hogwarts with one.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And he’s certainly not about to go and parlay with the giants, as was just brought up. And then he does something that… he’s almost de-pantsing Fudge, in a way, because he starts to call into question his legacy. He says, basically, “You’re either going to be remembered for saving the wizarding world, or destroying it.” And that’s where things, I think, start to really heat up between the two of them and it’s clear that there’s not going to be a reconciliation anytime soon.

Laura: Yeah. I also think Dumbledore might have taken a… I don’t want to say slower approach, because time is of the essence, but he might have taken maybe a more measured approach with Fudge had Fudge not destroyed the only real piece of evidence they have of what happened tonight. So I think Dumbledore is very urgent because the situation is urgent. There’s literally nothing but Harry’s word, and Moody can speak to his experience, but he also wasn’t in the graveyard. So because time is of the essence, I think he kind of has to smack Fudge around a little bit and also impress upon him, “You’re an idiot. Look at everything that has to be done so quickly, because you screwed this up.”

Andrew: Voldemort just blindsided him, basically. He just got his body back, too; I mean, that’s pretty scary in and of itself. He could be running off to the giants right now and trying to get them on his side. Anything is possible right now.

Eric: Yeah, they could be storming Hogwarts tomorrow, or overthrowing the Ministry next week.

Micah: I agree, Laura. I just don’t think in this moment the right audience is present for Dumbledore’s speech.

Eric: You know what I think it is, too, is Fudge is clamming up, in a way. Fudge has long sought advice from Dumbledore about little things; he’s long appreciated Dumbledore’s advice, and so Dumbledore is more apt to give it. But when people panic, they need this level of guidance. When people are in shock, they need to be told, “Proceed to the exit. Remember your training. Remember your experience.” And so maybe Dumbledore supplying very calmly, “This is what you need to do,” isn’t just praying and hoping that Fudge does the right thing here, but is also helping Fudge to get over that initial shock of… you’re right, Andrew; Voldemort is back, that’s huge! That alone is huge, let alone this plot that is multi-tiered and has been in the works for a year is happening. This is the way in which Dumbledore… Fudge needs to be told what to do, always, but especially now.

Andrew: Well, clearly, Fudge’s priorities are out of order. And as if we didn’t talk enough about how Fudge is really just operating strangely here, his parting words are to Harry about his winnings! [laughs]

Eric: I’m glad he didn’t forget!

Andrew: “Cedric is dead, you think Voldemort is back, but let’s not forget about your 1,000 Galleons.” As if Harry gave any crap about that right now.

Eric: No, no. But maybe Fudge is bound by the Goblet of Fire to provide the bag.

Andrew: [laughs] That he listens to. He listens to the Goblet of Fire, but not Dumbledore.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Fudge would drop dead if he didn’t… yeah. It’s a magically binding goblet; it’s like, “You’d better pay these kids.”

Andrew: If the Goblet of Fire spit out a piece of paper that said Voldemort was back, would Fudge believe the news then?

Eric: That is a good question.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Probably not. He’d be like, “Oh, clearly the crazy fool wrote this under a fifth school!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: This does set up Harry giving the money to the twins, which is one of my favorite little surprises, so there’s that. But still, I just can’t believe Fudge would bring that up after all this.

Eric: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s clear he doesn’t want to see Harry anytime soon, so he’s like, “Well, I already see him now. Ordinarily, there would be a ceremony.”

Andrew: [laughs] That’s fair.

Eric: So two final things here: Once Fudge leaves, unfortunately, Dumbledore uses a phrase; he refers to Fudge being short-sighted, and I actually think there’s no better phrase to describe this sort of reaction, right? These actions protect Fudge in the short term, and they have devastating consequences in the long term. So it may be politically convenient for a politician to deny or discredit things that are coming for you – Voldemort is coming for the wizarding world, climate change is coming for our planet – but if they acted now, it would be so much better. If they acted when it was first presented to them, it would be so much better. So it is short-sighted.

Laura: Yeah, that’s a diplomatic term to use for it. I can think of other terms that probably aren’t great for this show, but check out Millennial.

Eric: Coming up in MuggleCast After Dark.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: So lastly, everyone is given instructions of what to do next by Dumbledore, and Harry is put back to sleep. And you’ve just got to love Dumbledore here; these are some great chapters for Dumbledore, puppet master in a good way. And there are some more hints, some more foreshadowing concerning Order of the Phoenix. He talks about getting the “old crowd” back together.

Eric: Foreshadowing alert.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Eric: But yeah, you know what? Fudge isn’t the only one who needs instruction. This is incredibly useful; it really helps to have a type A personality in the room. [laughs] It really has benefits to really set the board and set the pieces, and everyone has their marching orders. I mean, this is kind of a preview of the Dumbledore we don’t get to see next year because he avoids Harry, but the kind of Dumbledore who’s strategizing and able to send certain pieces… we’ve always referred to him as a chess master; this is him telling the pieces where to go.

Micah: Yeah, and it’s clear that he thought about this probably many times before this particular moment. It’s not like he just spur of the moment said, “Okay, Snape, you go here. Sirius, you go here. Molly, you go…”

Eric: Yeah, “Oh, envoys to the giants would be good.” No, he’s been thinking about this for ages. Well, and it all seems to be based on reason and historical precedent, too, because he says, “The giants were a big problem last time for us.”


Odds & Ends


Eric: So we do have an odd and end to talk to, and it’s very exciting. There’s an extremely tender moment where Harry is about to flip and break down and cry. He is in Molly’s arms, and his breath is hitching and they’re about to cry, but all of a sudden from the other side of the room, there’s a slap, and they look over, and Hermione is just like, “Sorry. Carry on.”

[Buzzing sound effect plays]

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Do we hear a little voice too? It’s like, [in a high-pitched voice] “Ahh!”

Eric: We know that it is now time to up our surprisingly low Rita Skeeter spy count.

Andrew: Thank goodness.

Laura: To what?

Eric: Do we have a sound effect?

Andrew: That was it, the buzzing. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, okay. Well, so the Rita Skeeter spy count now goes to seven, where Rita has been caught red-handed spying. And can you imagine what story would have been printed? Or stories; let’s not say just one. Whose side would it be out on? You know what, when I was reading this and was reminded that Rita Skeeter is here for this conversation, I immediately justified in my mind everything that Hermione does in the next book, because Rita Skeeter cannot be trusted. She has proven that she cannot be trusted with any level of sensitive information. And what do we think is more likely? Do we think that Rita Skeeter would come out against Fudge because he’s very obviously in the wrong here? Or would she continue her line of slandering Harry by talking in advance about what Dumbledore and Harry’s talking points are going to be about Voldemort and undercutting them?

Andrew: The latter. She’s not going to change her position on Harry.

Laura: Yeah. And also bolstering Fudge as well, pointing out that Fudge talks about Hagrid hiring giants and werewolves, and how he bravely stood up to Dumbledore and the Hogwarts mob, all of that crazy…

Eric: The woke Hogwarts mob?

Laura: Yes, all of that rhetoric.

Micah: She knows that she has a reader in Fudge; Fudge all but admits to that in this chapter.

Laura: Yeah.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Eric: I’m going to give a rare MVP to Snape for doing the right thing. If Fudge won’t believe the Dark Mark on his own forearm, he’s well and truly lost. And that’s also an active lead that the Minister is not considering; if they can just find Death Eaters by the mark on their arm now that Voldemort is back, that would be huge.

Andrew: I’m going to plus one that one because Snape is also willing to be a double agent, which is very cool. But also, I need to add that Dumbledore is a key player here in orchestrating these plans in very quick order, in the face of Fudge, who is just brushing away all this “Voldemort is back” talk.

Micah: I will give it to the greasiest handshake that ever was.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Oh, yeah, we didn’t get to touch on that.

Eric: Between Sirius and Snape? They’re forced to shake hands?

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Shake, you two. Grow up.”

Eric: You just know that they were squeezing really hard.

Laura: Yeah, seeing which one would let go first. [laughs] I’m going to do something that I think is a little shocking for the Dumbledore haters on the panel: I’m going to give it to Dumbledore. I don’t know the last time I gave my MVP of the Week to him, but honestly, chapters like this are when Dumbledore is at his best.

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And aww, next week is the final chapter in Goblet of Fire! Chapter 37, “The Beginning.” Can’t believe. [imitating Dumbledore] Another book, gone.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And then after that, we’ll do an episode wrapping up the book, and it’ll probably be a Muggle Mail type episode too. And the four of us are also going to be getting together for a podcast industry conference, so we might record something there together. So we’re going to have a couple weeks off from traditional Chapter by Chapter episodes, but then we’ll kick off Order of the Phoenix in September. Perfect. Back to Hogwarts. Well, maybe end of August, early September. I don’t know.

Micah: Choo-choo.

Andrew: Yes, choo-choo, Micah. Choo-choo.

Micah: And the Hogwarts Express… oh, we can talk about that later.

Andrew: And back to Hogwarts.

Micah: Well, the Hogwarts Express is actually coming to New York this year.

Andrew: The train?

Micah: The actual train, yeah.

Andrew: Do they have a train track across the ocean?

Micah: It’s magic, Andrew.

Andrew: That train still runs on rails, last time I checked…

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … so you’d better go and look and see what they’re actually doing. No, that sounds cool. A Hogwarts Express is going to be in New York? [laughs]

Micah: Grand Central Station.

Andrew: Huh. Interesting. Okay.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Well, now it’s time for everybody’s favorite game show, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s Quizzitch question: What six Death Eater names does Harry give directly to Fudge? The correct answers were Malfoy, Macnair, Avery, Nott, Crabbe, and Goyle. And correct answers were submitted to us by Buff Daddy; Danielle H.; Dumble Hut now has drama squares for 4.99 each; Elizabeth K.; Fudge starts to fudge and fumble his response to Moldy Voldy’s “Did You Miss Me” return; Got a lot of fudge in the trunk…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … Kennah and the one where MuggleCast is the only thing keeping me sane through college applications LOL; LC; Minister of Magic Deadpool…. I would watch that.

Laura: Heck yeah.

Eric: … Ogg the former gamekeeper at Hogwarts; The Hufflepuff from Down Under (Australia will win the Olympics, America are screwed); Winky the criminal; You have all been in my podcatcher for 19 years; and You’re a toy for drama, Harry – Dumbledore. Here is next week’s question: What does Harry ask Viktor Krum when they shake hands before going to the Hogwarts Express? Ron asks for his autograph, and Harry asks Viktor something else. I see that already six people have submitted this week’s Quizzitch answer because I put the question in the form this morning instead, so should be a good week next week. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the MuggleCast website, maybe checking out transcripts or the Wall of Fame or any other thing, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: We also do have that “Must Listens” page on MuggleCast.com, and I was just perusing it because some people listening live tonight on our Patreon are asking will we also do a Order of the Phoenix movie commentary prior to the Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter reread? And the answer is yes. Before we started this current Goblet of Fire reread, we did a movie commentary, and we hadn’t done Goblet of Fire either. So before we start Order of the Phoenix CBC, we will do an Order of the Phoenix movie commentary.

Eric: And that’s one of the few we haven’t already?

Andrew: Yeah, believe it or not. We’ve done 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, and then Fantastic Beasts 1, 2, and 3. [laughs]

Eric: Okay, that’s why it feels like we’ve done at least ten of them. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. So we still need to do Chamber, Order and Deathly Hallows – Part 1.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: It’s crazy we haven’t done a commentary for all seven movies yet. [laughs]

Eric: It’s just the timing has not been right.

Andrew: Yeah, but here’s an opportunity, so lots of special episodes coming up in the weeks ahead. And don’t forget that we have a new bonus MuggleCast this week, and even if you’re not an Apple Podcasts paid subscriber or patron, you can listen to it. We’re going to be talking about this news about MinaLima not being asked to return to create more illustrated editions of the Harry Potter books after creating three beautiful books. Visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll find the new bonus MuggleCast available for a one time purchase of $3, just like last week’s was as well. Your support goes to running this show, and we are excited to offer this new way to support us in exchange for more MuggleCast. We are an independent podcast, but running a business is expensive and it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort, so you can also help us out by, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribing to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free, early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And then there’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you get all the above benefits, plus our livestreams, our planning docs, a chance to co-host the show one day, a new physical gift every year, a video message from one of the four of us, a monthly Slug Club hangout, and throughout the year, we throw in other surprise benefits. The four of us are going to be getting together in a couple weeks, and we plan to do something special for patrons, so check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And lastly, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please tell your fellow Harry Potter friends about the show, and we would also appreciate if you helped us spread the word by leaving a review in your favorite podcast app. So with all that wrapped up, thanks, everybody, for listening. We’ll see you next week for the final chapter in Goblet of Fire. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Transcript #668

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #668, Grab the Truth Juice (GOF Chapter 35, Veritaserum)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, open the hatch and get ready to spill a heavy dose of truth, because we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 35, “Veritaserum.” And this is also a special episode of MuggleCast because y’all, we turned 19 years old on August 5, just the other day, so we have our own 19 years later moment. 19 years later, we’re still doing this. Woo-hoo!

Eric: Oh my God.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: It’s pretty incredible when you think about it, honestly.

Andrew: It really is. People can’t believe when I tell them we’ve been doing this since 2005. It’s wild.

Laura: Same.

Eric: It still feels like yesterday.

Andrew: It’s gone by quick. If you told any of us we’d be doing this 19 years later, I think we’d laugh at you back in 2005, or even 2007. [laughs]

Eric: No, I wasn’t even 19.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: We didn’t need makeup, though, for our 19 years later, right?

Laura: That’s true.

Andrew: What do you mean? Oh, compared to the movie.

Eric: There wasn’t a re-film, reshoot about the whole thing; there wasn’t controversy surrounding our 19.

Andrew: Well, we are recording this in a different way today, and you guys were uncomfortable with that, so… [laughs]

Eric: If we lose the audio, there might be some controversy!

Andrew: We might have to reshoot it. [laughs]

Laura: Honestly, that would be such a full circle moment, because early on in our podcasting career, we had more than one occasion where we lost audio.

Eric: Laura… okay, I don’t care what you said, Andrew, I’m going to actually do a recording of it. You’ve spoken it into existence.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: So Eric is the only one who’s going to be recording.

Eric: I won’t have to come back for the reshoots. I’m just… here, it’s going.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I thought, “19 years later, let’s do it different, finally. Let’s do it differently.”

Eric: I don’t trust it.

Micah: There’s too much info in this episode to have to redo it.

Andrew: Everybody can just read our planning doc if we lose this episode.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: We’ll be like, “That’s it.” We’ll feed it to an AI; they’ll create some voices for us.

Laura: No, it’s going to be great. We’re going to be fine. New decade, new us.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Well, thank you to all of our listeners. Whether you started back on August 5, 2005 or you started just last week, we really appreciate that you listen to MuggleCast, an independent podcast with four Harry Potter friends talking about the wizarding world that we all love so much, and we’re just so grateful to have you all on this journey with us. I was recording some thank you videos to our patrons earlier today, and I was saying I feel like we’re kind of in a new era for MuggleCast with What the Hype?!, which all four of us are a part of, and we’re all looking forward to the Harry Potter TV series. It’s just a really good time for the show right now.

Eric: It’s been nice to grow alongside the show, to have the show reflect us as people always; that’s been a real joy. And it’s still… the number one reason why we still do it is because we still love it.

Laura: And each other.

Andrew: Yes!

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Specifically each other, and doing this, yeah, with each other. That’s the whole… the experience.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Andrew, I love that nervous chuckle. You’re like… [imitates laughter]

Andrew: No, I was going to say that we’re actually all getting together for the first time in who knows how long in person later this month in DC for a podcast industry conference, so that’ll also be an exciting moment for all of us. So an exciting month ahead for MuggleCast.

Eric: Absolutely.

Andrew: And the Wizarding World continues to chug along, and a couple days ago, we got new details about the Wizarding World of Harry Potter: Ministry of Magic. This is the new land coming to the new theme park at Universal Orlando, and these new details were our best look yet at this new land, and we see the new attractions that will be opening next year, including a Ministry of Magic/Umbridge-themed ride. This is the big ride. And we learned a lot more details; we’re going to discuss all this in a new bonus MuggleCast this week that is available to patrons and Apple Podcasts paid subscribers, but we also have a bit of news of our own here: You can now make a one-time purchase of any future bonus MuggleCast that you want to hear, and this week’s bonus MuggleCast will cost $3. You can purchase it over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, or you can find the link in the show notes to purchase it. While we hope you subscribe to the Patreon, we understand that not everyone can, so we’re beginning to offer some one-time purchases that will get you more Harry Potter and MuggleCast goodness, plus you’ll be helping support us. So again, head to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, buy that bonus MuggleCast installment, and you’ll hear our thoughts on this new Wizarding World land opening next year at Universal Orlando.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So without further ado, let’s jump into Chapter by Chapter. And this week, we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 35, “Veritaserum,” and we’ll start with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: Secrets…

Micah: … are…

Laura: … revealed…

Andrew: … by…

Micah: … truth…

Eric: … serum…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Bing-Bong.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Hang on, I’m going to redo my word. I’m going to redo my word and help us all out. Telling…

Laura: … serum.

Andrew: Love it.

Laura: Thank you, thank you. I was about to say “Snapily.” [laughs]

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: I like when we always have an extra word available at the end. [laughs]

Eric: “Hooray!”

Andrew: How we just throw in something… right, “Hooray.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Screw seven words; we can do it in six.

Eric: Yeah, there you go.

Micah: That’s what we’re proving over and over.

[Eric and Laura laugh]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, so Chapter 35, “Veritaserum,” begins with Harry returning to Hogwarts on the outskirts of the maze, and he is completely disoriented upon return from the graveyard. And actually, I wanted to start by asking – and I think we’ve addressed this in some episodes over the years – but it’s very convenient that the Triwizard cup is a Portkey that takes Harry back to Hogwarts. We’ve never seen that functionality before; we’ve really only seen one-way Portkeys. And I think it was you, Laura, who mentioned on a prior episode that your headcanon was always that it was to bring Harry’s body back to Hogwarts and allow Voldemort to rise to power in secrecy.

Laura: Yeah, that’s my thinking. I think probably the original intent was for it to bring only Harry back dead, so that he would be found somewhere in or around the maze, and the assumption would be made that he had just died doing the task. My only problem with this is that the other representations of Portkeys we see are all timed, so you had to be there at a certain time and touch it at a specific time to travel, and it seems like this Portkey is the on-demand Portkey. [laughs] I don’t know if there’s a differentiation.

Eric: Yeah, it’s when you set a Snapchat to infinite instead of… or an Instagram thing to infinite, so it just repeats instead of running out. No, I like that headcanon, Laura, because I don’t think there’s good… it’s not foolproof in the plotting. Dumbledore does say, I believe, either in this book or the next, that Harry coming back and being able to tell Dumbledore and everybody of Voldemort’s plan, essentially allowing Dumbledore to assemble the Order and everything, happened months, if not years, sooner than Voldemort would have wished. So it’s not really like even Voldemort would have a good plan to make the Portkey go back. If anything, I think that the Portkey going back to Hogwarts was either a fluke or something that was outside of Voldemort’s control. The headcanon I use is that it was going to take you from the center of the maze to the outside of the maze, because that’s where Harry lands; it’s a different place than where he took the cup from, and that all Barty Crouch, Jr. did was create a middle stop in the graveyard. And so because it didn’t go where it was originally programmed to go, the front of the maze, it was then still active to take him to the front of the maze, so it’s like if Barty Crouch wedged something in there to get it to do that instead. But that doesn’t account for the fact that they are timed, usually.

Micah: Well, Laura and Eric, you have both done more thinking than the author did in this particular part of the story.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: This book was rushed.

Andrew: Hey, she was working under a deadline.

Micah: Yes, we know that. So as mentioned, Harry returns back to Hogwarts on the outskirts of the maze, and multiple people try to pull him away from Cedric’s body. This is a really heart-wrenching scene to read through, and a couple of questions came to mind: Do we think that Harry is holding on to the only thing he knows to be safe at this moment? And does he also feel a level of responsibility for what’s happened to Cedric, and that is why he refuses to let go?

Andrew: I think it’s partly – to answer your first question – he’s still in denial about what happened, so by letting go, he would almost be accepting that Cedric is dead. He can’t just continue to hold him and he’ll suddenly come back to life, and I’m sure he does feel a level of responsibility to some degree. He will come to accept what happened in time, and it wasn’t his fault, and Dumbledore is cognizant of the fact in this chapter that Harry has gone through something horrific, and he’s going to need to hear details immediately to be able to begin accepting what occurred and starting to move on. But I’m sure in this moment, he’s wondering if he could have done anything differently to have brought Cedric back with him alive.

Eric: I mean, Harry is in rough shape, too; he was dodging spells that were hitting the headstones near him. I mean to say, “He barely escaped” is actually an understatement, and those people really wanted him dead. His scar is still hurting him. Even if Voldemort isn’t right in front of him, Harry’s scar is going off because Voldemort is back for the first time in 13 years. So it’s definitely not a place where he can think about what he’s doing, and it takes literally the firm hand of Dumbledore – who’s stronger than he looks – to lift Harry up, to let him let go of Cedric, to convince Harry to let go and then to stay put, which those plans get scalped.

Micah: How do we imagine the rest of the student body is reacting at this moment? There’s some mention of screams and other noise being made, but it brings me back to the band playing.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The movie cleans up this moment quite a bit, actually, because from the point where Harry first arrives in the book, there’s some screams, but there’s also screams when Harry is in Crouch Junior’s office. And so it’s like, well, are people just casually finding out that this happened? Was there not a big announcement to everybody to go back to your dormitories or anything? Because the screaming is taking place over 15 minutes in the book.

Andrew: It is a very hard scene to watch in the movie, but it’s also a hard scene to read in the book, knowing what all of these students and faculty are about to realize. So it was painful for even me to read this today and just brace for what they were about to find out, because also, another factor to consider here is just like Harry, for many of these students and most people there, this is going to be their first time seeing a dead body. Totally unexpectedly during what should have been a celebratory moment.

Eric: It’s their peer, right? Is gone too soon.

Andrew: A young one, yeah.

Eric: A child should never die. I mean, that’s the other thing, is this wasn’t some general at war that you expect to maybe not return. This was a kid, and he was only 17.

Laura: Yeah, and he wasn’t doing anything wrong, right? He was participating in something that should have been completely innocent. I know this is dark, but it definitely reminds me in a way of… I’m sure we all had the experience when we were in high school of having somebody we went to school with unfortunately pass away for one reason or another. And obviously, none of that involved a Portkey or anything, but even that, and thinking about the weight that that leaves across the student body, a bunch of kids realizing that a peer that they maybe just saw the day before isn’t there anymore. It’s really tough to reconcile for the first time when you’re encountering that with someone your age. So the Hogwarts kids – and I mean, really, everyone who’s at Hogwarts for this event – is going through that together, so the response actually makes a lot of sense to me.

Micah: Yeah. And somebody in Cedric who is very well-liked, very well-respected, so that has to hit on a deeper level as well. But it was mentioned that Dumbledore is able to pry Harry away from Cedric, and he rightly doesn’t want to let Harry out of his sight; he knows that something is up. But Moody is able to lure him back to the castle while Dumbledore is distracted by the Diggories.

Andrew: What I like about this moment is I think it’s reflective of how we all react in the Muggle world when we are in such shock about something life-altering that has occurred. When you read this passage, Harry and the narrator don’t even acknowledge who is pulling Harry away. You don’t know it’s Moody until several minutes later; Harry does not realize that. And I love that it’s written this way, because like I said, I think there are times in our lives when something so shocking happens, your brain just starts vibrating and you can’t think straight; you might not even be able to see straight. You just don’t know what’s going on, so I like that that was conveyed here.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, Harry knows enough to say, “Voldemort is back.” He tells Dumbledore, “Voldemort is back,” but what he fails to tell Dumbledore is what he brings up later: There’s a Death Eater at Hogwarts. And that is information that had he told Dumbledore, none of this would have happened, but that just shows how exhausted Harry is, how just completely disconnected. And you assume that he’s landed in safety; just let people pick him up and set him down wherever he needs to be. This is not a time to do further damage to the Chosen One, ladies and gents. This is nuts that he is in further danger here, but that’s kind of what makes it brilliant, and Barty Crouch, Jr. can’t really help himself; this is the last opportunity to really do what he’s been wanting to do all year.

Laura: And I feel like under normal circumstances, Dumbledore would have put together the fact that a Death Eater was at Hogwarts automatically, but the only reason he doesn’t here is because he has to tend to Cedric’s parents, right? So to me, it makes sense; that is a plausible reason why he would overlook something like this. Normally, I would be calling this out as a Dumbledore fail, but I think it’s understandable.

Micah: He does, though. He does start to put things together, though, because he conveniently asks for – and we’ll get to this – but for Snape to go get Winky, and this is before Moody transforms back into Barty Crouch, Jr., so he clearly was able to put the pieces together. But Moody is able, as we said, to take Harry back up to the castle. And Dumbledore comments later on that he knew the real Mad-Eye wouldn’t have disobeyed his orders in a moment like this, and he actually mentions trailing them, which made me laugh a little bit…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … because Dumbledore clearly takes his time in trailing Moody and Harry. And the reason why I said this is because we’re talking about trailing two people who are on bum legs.

Eric: Wow. You said it. You went there.

Micah: Moody and Harry. Yeah, and no disrespect. [laughs] I’m just saying that…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, really? No disrespect? A little too late to start saying that about Dumbledore.

Micah: But how slow is Dumbledore moving?

Andrew: Yeah, I take your point. He’s an old man, that’s all I can say.

Micah: He can Apparate.

Laura: Yeah, but he’s strong enough to pull Harry off of Cedric. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: The only thing that stands out to me is that Dumbledore said he realized that Moody was the one that took Harry away and knew instantly that that was not something the authentic Moody would do. If you know it, say it right then and there. “No, wait, Alastor, hold off.” But the only explanation I have is that he was just… Dumbledore had to be the statesman. He had to be the headmaster of the… Dumbledore had to do the one thing that he never wanted to do ever, is take responsibility for some oversight of his own, right? And he has to tell the parents of Cedric that Cedric is dead, and that’s just…

Micah: Well, he probably doesn’t trust Fudge to do it either.

Andrew: And I think in the craziness of this moment as he is trailing Fakey and Harry, he might get interrupted by a person or two. Somebody might come up to him in a hallway and ask about what’s going on or something like that. This is a very chaotic moment, so a couple of unexpected detours may have needed to occur.

Eric: I agree with you, Andrew. And when Dumbledore does show up, it’s with two other Heads of House in Snape and McGonagall, and so they would have also had to be doing a lot of either herding the children to get them back to their dormitory… it’s whatever they always do when there’s a crisis at the school, right? You’ve got to tell the prefects to get the kids out of here. The fact that Dumbledore shows… he waits for Minerva and Severus to be ready. They would have had a lot of wrangling to do prior to that moment, so yeah, Dumbledore does not hustle in this particular moment.

Micah: No. So we end up getting the big reveal back in Moody’s office, and surprise, surprise, it was the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor all along. Are we shocked at all here? This is year four; we should know by now something’s up with the DADA professor.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Shouldn’t Dumbledore know that?

Eric: You know, I for one am shook.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Well, I think the unique twist is he was a teacher at the school all along and ended up being a completely different person, and the real one was hidden in the castle the whole time. So yeah, we know this position is cursed, we know that something was going to happen to him by the end of this book, but we didn’t know the extent to which he orchestrated everything. So I can’t remember what I was thinking when I read this the first time, how surprised or not I was, to be honest.

Eric: I think my jaw was probably on the floor. Honestly, giving the book credit – and the film adaptation ruins this – I kept waiting to see the entire time we were reading this book where specifically Barty Crouch, Jr.’s name is first said, because in the movie it’s at the trials in the Pensieve, which would have been, like, eight chapters ago at this point. But in the book, it is not revealed until this chapter, the confession, that Barty Crouch’s kid is also named Barty after his dad, and that is the puzzle piece that explains the Marauder’s Map, that really allows us to put the puzzle pieces together. So I cannot claim that we really should have been smarter, especially as children when we were first reading this, to who really done it, because that piece of information is actually critically held off until the reveal, essentially.

Micah: Yeah, it’s really well written. And I love the… well, where did it go? There was just…

Laura: I know, I was about to reply to it. [laughs]

Micah: … a picture of Olenna Tyrell in the Discord here with her famous line, “Tell Cersei. I want her to know it was me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Won’t get into too many spoilers there, but it’s very appropriate for this chapter and Barty Crouch, Jr.’s explanation, which we’re going to get to in a minute. He runs through, for Harry, how he did it all, kind of throwing it in his face a little bit. But one of the other things that I really wanted to call attention to was he wants to know that his plan was successful, and most importantly, he wants to know from Harry, from firsthand experience, how those who evaded Azkaban were treated. And for me, for as much as we debated a little bit who Barty Crouch, Jr. really is throughout this entire Chapter by Chapter discussion – does he have any nice qualities to him, like maybe his moments with Neville – this throws all of that out the window, because he really shines through in this moment. And there are two quotes that I pulled from this chapter; who would like to read the first one?

Eric: I’ll take it. I’m a staunch Barty Crouch, Jr. lover. I think one of the earliest episodes of MuggleCast, I was like, “But he’s a cool guy, right?” and just totally got lambasted for it.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I still think so. But here’s a quote:

“I asked you whether he forgave the scum who never even went to look for him. Those treacherous cowards who wouldn’t even brave Azkaban for him. The faithless, worthless bits of filth who were brave enough to cavort in masks at the Quidditch World Cup, but fled at the sight of the Dark Mark when I fired it into the sky… I told you, Harry… I told you. If there’s one thing I hate more than any other, it’s a Death Eater who walked free. They turned their backs on my master when he needed them most. I expected him to punish them. I expected him to torture them. Tell me he hurt them, Harry.”

[Barty Crouch, Jr. appreciation sound effect plays: “You know what this means, don’t you? I’ll be welcomed back like a hero.”]

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, I guess I forgot to do the David Tennant and British accent. Sorry, for everybody.

Andrew: That’s okay.

Eric: But yeah, he’s so bent on this level of suffering, and it’s interesting; it catches Harry off guard for a number of reasons, right? His head is swimming, everything. But to a pretty large extent – not insignificant amount – Barty Crouch, it turns out, has helped Harry all throughout this year. He gives Harry his only real career advice trajectory, and I think had a lot of fun. There were examples, looking back and doing this Chapter by Chapter, where he’s really enjoying himself this whole year, and so it’s interesting because he’s revealed as the big bad, but these implications and the resonance from this whole school year will continue to follow Harry the rest of the series, the rest of his life, really. He really wasn’t a bad teacher; he was just a bad guy.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Tomato, to-mah-to.

Laura: It’s ironic, too, because I think as we get a little further into this, we’re going to get to see what Barty Crouch, Jr. actually thinks of Harry, and I would imagine that if Harry wasn’t feeling like he was on death’s doorstep, that it would actually feel pretty hurtful to him to have someone he looked up to all year actually reveal their true feelings about him. But Harry’s got way bigger fish to fry in this moment, so it’s just interesting to me that Harry doesn’t reflect on any of that.

Micah: No, he doesn’t really have the time to be able to do that, but I’m glad that you brought that up, Laura, because right after this break, we’re going to find out exactly how Mad-Eye Fakey was able to help Harry throughout the entire year, and then throw it in his face.

[Ad break]

Micah: So a valuable lesson for Harry is that help is not always well-intentioned. I think that probably sums up this entire year for him.

Laura: It’s so funny, too, because someone else who was consistently offering Harry help throughout the year is Ludo Bagman…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … and Harry doesn’t trust him – for obvious reasons – and I would argue that Harry was right to not trust him, but I think that he had a little bit of blindness when it came to trusting Moody. I think he had the rose-colored Dumbledore glasses and thought, “Oh, well, this guy’s cool.”

Eric: The rose-colored half moon spectacles? Yeah, I like that.

Laura: Yeah, like, “This guy’s cool with Dumbledore, so he’s probably fine.”

Eric: That’s the thing; you rely on your friends to vet these types of people, the people you let in. Not everyone can… you form your own opinion eventually, but it was heavily based…. Harry feeling safe is a damn lie, and it’s all because Dumbledore is allowing unqualified and/or not fully vetted people to teach. Now, this is a good deception – I’m not saying that – I’m not throwing everything at Dumbledore, but Harry felt safe because Dumbledore trusted Moody. And Dumbledore did not explicitly trust Bagman, but I laughed earlier, Laura, as you were saying it, because in retrospect, if Harry had relied on Bagman for the answers, it would have been completely fine. I mean, I think Bagman would be a little richer for it, and it would have been cheating, but you wouldn’t have had the same kind of problems as with Moody.

Laura: Right. He would have been able to pay Fred and George.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t know; I’m seeing a lot of upsides here.

Micah: So in terms of running through all of the things that Fakey says to Harry, we start with the first task, and it’s just basically an endless list of questions in his face. “Who put your name in the Goblet of Fire under the name of a different school?… Who frightened off every person I thought might try to hurt you or prevent you from winning the tournament?… Who nudged Hagrid into showing you the dragons?… Who helped you see the only way you could beat the dragon?… Who told Cedric to open the egg underwater?” And it just a waterfall. “Me, me, me, me.”

Andrew: Me, me, me. Yeah, he wants credit for all of it. “Yeah, I did it all. I pulled it all off.” And we were talking about how he’s been helping Harry throughout the course of this book; another big example here was that he admits he was able to curse many of the obstacles out of Harry’s way in the final task, and one reason I wanted to highlight that is because I believe a few episodes ago, we were debating whether or not Fakey made it easier for him to get through, and here we know now that that definitely was the case.

Laura: Yeah, it really adds insult to injury for Harry here.

Andrew: Yes, I was just thinking that too.

Laura: And I think to us as the reader, too, because we’re predisposed to see Harry as having this very natural, advanced talent in Defense Against the Dark Arts, and obviously not everything in the maze was a Dark Art, but some of it certainly was. And we were all even feeling when we read the chapter, like, “Wow, there’s a lot of time where Harry is just running around this maze and nothing’s happening.” [laughs] And it kind of sucks, I think, as a reader, to feel like, “Oh man, the wool was pulled over my eyes, too, not just Harry’s.”

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Do you think Harry would…? He’s very prideful, he’s very courageous, he’s proud of his skillset. Do you think Harry, in a way, would want to do all this again without the help of Fakey? At least the third task.

Laura: Nah.

Andrew: It’s too triggering? Too soon?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I think the important thing there is just to know that he wouldn’t even be in this situation if it weren’t for Fakey. It’s not like Harry initially thought it would be a cool idea, but Harry would have actually had a really peaceful, relaxing fourth year. He would have been able to cheer on Cedric; it would have done so much for inner House unity. If the whole plot with Voldemort didn’t happen, there would just be the one Hogwarts champion.

Andrew: Yeah, and he would have loved not having all the attention on himself for once.

Micah: But we know that never happens; the attention always falls on Harry some way, somehow, and that’s why I think it’s easy for him, if he is to reflect back on this, to feel like he was manipulated. But he was also manipulated by somebody who was, in his own right, well-intentioned to the point of trying… I mean, if Harry feels bad, Dumbledore should feel even worse. [laughs] That’s what I’m trying to get at here.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Oopsie.”

Eric: [laughs] He had an oopsie-poopsie.

Micah: Because he fooled everybody. He fooled everybody, not just Harry. And I think Harry should get some credit for completing these tasks, for surviving these tasks. Even though Moody opened the door, it was on Harry to actually complete these tasks, right? Especially the first and the second ones. We can debate the third; Moody was removing obstacles. But the first and the second task, Harry was… go ahead.

Andrew: Well, but he still survived the battle with Voldemort. I mean, that alone gives him all the credit.

Micah: Right.

Eric: That was the fourth task!

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That was the hardest task of all!

Laura: To me, that’s the real task, yeah. And honestly, it speaks to Harry’s ability, again, to rely on his instinct and improvise when the stakes are actually high. When it’s something like school task that presumably you’re not going to die in, the stakes are just different. The motivation is going to be different.

Micah: Totally. And I think another moment where Barty Crouch, Jr. shines through in this part of the conversation is when he says that “Decent people are so easy to manipulate,” and he’s not just talking about Harry; he’s talking about Neville. He’s talking about Cedric. He’s talking about Dobby. He really uses people to his own advantage to ensure that Harry makes his way through all these tasks.

Eric: Yeah. It’s fun, though, to see there’s still some level of defiance where as a reader, you’re cheering on Harry, because there were times when it almost didn’t work out. Barty Crouch is telling Harry, “I thought you would have drowned. You were under the lake so long I thought you drowned, and it turns out you were just being extra noble, and luckily, Dumbledore rewarded you for it, but I was prepared to…” He would have had a much harder job if Harry had, in fact… if everyone did what Karkaroff wanted and gave Harry zero points for the second task, it would have been much harder to set Harry up in a good starting place for the third task. So there were times in which it almost didn’t work out, and that’s the satisfying thing, I think, about this plot. It’s a really devastating moment for Harry, for the school, for everything that it means about what’s about to come in the wizarding world, but at the end of the day, it’s nice to see that Harry was able to rely on his wits, like Laura was saying, and also that there were times in which it still was only a hair’s thread that meant that Voldemort could come back. That makes it feel satisfying, because if we have to deal with the most evil wizard ever coming back, you’d like to believe that it almost didn’t happen and it’s not like everyone rolled out the red carpet for him.

Micah: Well, to wrap up the first part of this chapter, let’s keep in mind this is still Fakey. Barty Crouch, Jr. has not been revealed yet, even though we now see him kind of coming through in how he’s speaking to Harry. But basically, what’s about to happen is that he’s going to do what Voldemort couldn’t and he’s going to kill Harry, but before he does it, he says something that I want to talk a little bit about. He says, “I will be his dearest, his closest supporter… closer than a son.”

Eric: Ahh, there it is!

Micah: So does Barty have daddy issues? And do we think that he views Voldemort as a surrogate father?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: 100%. And do y’all remember my headcanon from a few episodes ago about the potential that Barty Crouch, Jr. – not justifying anything that he did – but him being young, having a very troubled relationship with his extremely militant father, who would be ready to throw him under the bus if it meant preserving his political aspirations, how easy it could be for someone in those circumstances to be radicalized? And this, I feel, supports that headcanon, showing that he’s just desperate for some kind of fatherly acceptance from someone, and he thinks that the closest thing he’s going to get to it is Voldemort. It’s really sad.

Andrew: 100%.

Eric: There’s an interesting bond here between Barty Crouch, Jr. and Voldemort, that he compares the love… well, he compares being rewarded by his father surrogate. He also, at some point, was told by Voldemort about Voldemort’s own dad, about being named after him, and about the fact that Voldemort killed him, which speaks to a little bit more trust and confidence than you would normally expect from Voldemort, who Dumbledore even says doesn’t really have friends; he has followers. So the idea that Barty Crouch, Jr. got the inside line here shows that Voldemort was spending more time than I think he normally would with Barty Crouch, Jr., maybe because of how desperate he is to have this plan in year four totally succeed.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: Well, also, Barty’s close personal connection to the Ministry, I think, also plays in his favor in terms of Voldemort being very interested in what Barty Crouch, Jr. can provide.

Eric: That’s a good point too.

Laura: So he’s using him too.

Eric: Yeah, we don’t… Voldemort would definitely be using that connection with Barty Senior to see how many loyal followers he still might have within the Ministry; not just former Death Eaters, but people who would be potentially useful to him, like… God, what’s his face? Maybe Rookwood or… Yaxley? Yeah, people like that.

Laura: Right.

Micah: [laughs] I just like how you said that. “Yaxley.” [draws out the “Y”]

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: “Yaxley.” One thing I’ll also like to say – while we’re on this topic – I don’t necessarily think that Barty Crouch, Jr. was radicalized prior to Azkaban. I still like to believe that he was this teenager wrapped up in things that were bigger than him when he went with Bellatrix and Rodolphus to torture the Longbottoms. I like to believe that what we saw in the Pensieve with Barty Crouch, Jr. begging for mercy from his dad… I like to think it was Senior’s own actions that really made… once Junior could see how far his dad was willing to go, and then getting the reprieve of being broken out of Azkaban, then and only then, I think, would be this real thirst to really become the monster that your dad said you were, or treated you like.

Andrew: I could get behind that. That’s such a pivotal moment in his life, to be betrayed like that by his own father.

Eric: And that was Senior’s choice.

Andrew: Right, right.

Eric: Which again, it has to come down to choices here.

Andrew: And doesn’t Senior say something about, “I don’t have a son anymore” or something like that?

Eric: Yeah, “You’re no son of mine.”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: And I mean, we have to remember that we don’t really know if Junior did it. There was never really any legal conclusion reached to prove that he had done it, apart from the fact that I guess he got caught with some Death Eaters, so they made the assumption. Even Dumbledore says, “I don’t actually know if he did it.”

Micah: Ministry passing sentences without evidence; when has that ever happened before?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Could probably rattle off several, right? Sirius; Harry facing this full trial, which he will in Order of the Phoenix; Hagrid going to Azkaban without any evidence… we can go on and on. Well, we are going to find out the truth about what’s going on with Mad-Eye Fakey, but first, a quick word from our sponsors.

Andrew: Open the hatch!

[Ad break]

Micah: Andrew, I need you to bust out the truth juice.

Andrew: The truth juice? I only have water on me right now.

Laura: Truth juice sounds like something you would get on Alex Jones’s show or something.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: One of his advertised supplements.

Andrew: I’m going to a Mexican restaurant after this recording, and I think a margarita might be my own truth juice. I’ll let you all know.

Laura: Ooh, I can’t wait.

Micah: I was going to say, you could ask for a truth juice margarita.

Andrew: [laughs] They’ll be like, “What?”

Micah: Well, somebody who likes margaritas: Dumbledore comes bursting into the office.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Yes, it’s true.”

Eric: That’s a rumor! Oh, wait, he just confirmed it. Okay.

Andrew: “On the rocks, no salt, please.”

Micah: Harry notes that upon his face was a look “more terrible than Harry could have ever imagined,” and what do we think this looks like? Like a 150-year-old constipated man, or…?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I think it looks like Burt Reynolds. I think it looks like Clint Eastwood. I think it looks like the most badass action star so-and-so…

Andrew: Yeah! He’s pissed!

Eric: Just a little bit of a squint, honestly. But it’s amazing that the man can still bring it. I still think that, although many… I’ve grown a little warm to Gambon in this role.

Andrew: Oh, I thought you were going to say Dumbledore. Damn.

Eric: I still think that he tended to body people a little bit more to exert his force, and I tend to think of Dumbledore’s force as actually being more implied than brutish. And in this moment, it’s the look, it’s the disdain, it’s the glare that Dumbledore has in his eyes that make Harry bristle and go, “What the hell? Wow,” and that’s something we’ve yet to see in an adaptation of Dumbledore, I think.

Andrew: So yeah, this is evidence as to why – in my opinion, once again – Dumbledore is the best, capital B. So when Dumbledore does break into Moody’s office, the quote goes, “At that moment, Harry fully understood for the first time why people said Dumbledore was the only wizard Voldemort had ever feared. The look upon Dumbledore’s face as he stared down at the unconscious form of Mad-Eye Moody was more terrible than Harry could have ever imagined.” We just heard a couple chapters ago, too, that Dumbledore is the one that Voldemort has ever feared. Voldemort says so; he doesn’t want to go to Hogwarts. He doesn’t want to deal with Dumbledore. This is a powerful, good man who’s in control, and right now he’s pissed, and this is why he’s my boy.

Micah: I love it.

Eric: I mean, he has every right to be pissed; he’s been undermined. I think, honestly, he’s just inconvenienced and annoyed.

Andrew: Well, speaking of Fakey taking advantage of decent people, here’s another example of that.

Micah: And one of his students is dead; that’s also a reason to be super pissed.

Andrew: Yeah! On his watch.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: The buck stops with him. Buckbeak stops with him.

Micah: Well, one important note here is that Harry is looking into the Foe Glass that is in Fakey’s office – we were introduced to this earlier on in the book – and the Foe Glass is said to clearly show a person’s enemies, and all three individuals that show up here… we mentioned earlier that Dumbledore is accompanied by both Snape and McGonagall. Should this have been proof earlier on in the series that Snape being an enemy of Barty Crouch, Jr. in fact proves that he is…? I don’t want to say good, because he’s not good all the time, but that he’s on the side of Dumbledore. He’s on the side of the Order. He’s on Harry’s side.

Laura: I’m trying to remember what the thinking was at the time; that was definitely a theory. But I think on the other hand, some argued that in that moment, Snape was Crouch Junior’s foe despite his overall allegiances.

Andrew: That. That exactly, yep.

Eric: Yeah, it’s the same reason he didn’t get along with Quirrell that year, which we hear more about in Spinner’s End. The one thing that I want to bring up is that in the previous chapter, when Voldemort is looking at all the gaps in the Death Eater circle, he kind of alludes to Snape and says that he’s been abandoned forever by him and will pay. Or one of those is Karkaroff, but he has a few choice words for the Death Eaters that aren’t there; one of them is Snape, and basically Voldemort is convinced at that moment that Snape will pay for abandoning him. And we only find out in Spinner’s End that Snape was able to weave the tail – hence Spinner’s End – to be able to really believe the web of lies that Snape is running with. But yeah, I think that this is a good… it’s one of those value neutral indicators. But I like it being used as evidence for or against.

Micah: Yeah, certainly with the hindsight of having read through Deathly Hallows and knowing Snape’s true allegiance, this could be an easy moment to identify early on in the series that shows that his allegiance is to Dumbledore, the Order, and to Harry. But I do like the explanation that was given, though, as well. But speaking of loyalty, both Snape and McGonagall just march to Dumbledore’s orders with no hesitation. McGonagall gets the weirdest instructions, probably.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, definitely.

Eric: “Go to Hagrid’s pumpkin patch.” Not even the hut! Just “Go around back to the pumpkin patch, and you will see a dog – not Fang, a different black dog – and bring him up to my office, please.”

Andrew: He needs a therapy animal in this moment. He needs a dog to cuddle with.

Micah: Not only “Bring him up to my office;” “Tell him I’ll be there to speak with him shortly.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: To bark at him shortly. Yeah, I think one reason McGonagall and Snape are so inclined to help no questions asked is like we were talking about with Harry and Dumbledore. They’ve all been through this traumatic, shocking event, so no questions asked. Whatever Dumbledore says goes right now, and we’ll process the rest of it later. So I think that’s what’s going on.

Eric: Dumbledore is the only one who’s giving the instructions; this is what happens when you’re in shock. You need to be guided to do something.

Andrew: You need a guiding light. You know, I was going to make Dumbledore my MVP of the week, but I didn’t want to be too obvious…

Eric: Yeah, don’t be too obvious.

Andrew: … so I still won’t, but he’s very effective in this chapter. He’s very good. He’s very good at handling the sitch.

Eric: You need some take-charge people, yes.

Micah: While McGonagall is off getting a black dog from the pumpkin patch, Snape goes to get some Veritaserum, as well as pick up Winky and bring her back to the scene as it plays itself out. And we end up learning that the big reveal is that Mad-Eye Fakey is, in fact, Barty Crouch, Jr., and upon being given the Veritaserum, the info dump begins, and there’s a lot here to take in. Let’s start with Azkaban and talk about how Barty Crouch, Sr. pulled the old switcheroo, and he honors his wife’s dying wish to save his son. And again, here’s another line talking about the daddy issues, where Barty Crouch, Jr. says that Barty Crouch, Sr. “loved her as he had never loved me.”

Andrew: Aww.

Micah: And this is a running theme throughout the course of this chapter; we hear a lot of these types of statements from Barty Crouch, Jr., and I was just kind of curious how his mother kept up the disguise in Azkaban. She definitely wasn’t brewing the potion there herself, but I was more so thinking along the lines that enough was given to her for her remaining days.

Eric: She would have had to carry in a… you’d have to take it every hour on the hour, so probably doesn’t matter how much you take, but she would have had to have a canteen. All that’s said is that she didn’t last long in Azkaban.

Andrew: But it had to have been more than an hour, right? Otherwise, the timing is very convenient.

Eric: Oh, yeah. I mean, she needs at least 48 doses.

Andrew: And then to bury her? I mean, that’s going to take more time, presumably. So this seems like a bit of a plot hole to me, too; I would like to know how this all played out exactly.

Eric: Presumably, however you die, you’re stuck that way when you’re transfigured.

Andrew: I guess.

Eric: Well, yeah, because you would have to be alive for your cells and stuff to switch back. Maybe. I don’t know. When you bring science into it, it kind of falters.

Laura: Yeah, because I mean, when you die, the cells of your body don’t immediately die, so…

Eric: Yeah, isn’t that odd?

Laura: Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, I guess my initial thinking was maybe she did change back, but it didn’t really matter because Dementors can’t see. They can only sense one sick person came in and one sick person went out, and it wouldn’t matter who was left in the cell.

Eric: And I love that theory, and I think that would have been perfectly fine, right? The Dementors are blind; of course they sense one weak person going out, one weak person leaving. That’s all said. Except earlier in the cave, Sirius remarks that he watched the Dementors bury Barty Junior, and so it’s Sirius’s eyewitness account that adds to the puzzle pieces here and there of trying to implicate Barty Senior. It wasn’t for the Dementors that she would have had to be transfigured still, but for any other real human eyewitnesses that would happen to be watching out their cell room bars. So it’s interesting.

Laura: I guess I just wonder how good of a look Sirius could have gotten. Did they bury Barty Crouch, Jr.’s body right under Sirius’s window so he could clearly see who was being buried? Was the body in a shroud of some sort?

Eric: Right, was it wrapped.

Laura: I’m wondering if Sirius made the assumption that it was Barty Crouch, Jr. but didn’t actually see a body.

Eric: It makes sense.

Laura: Is that confirmed? Do we learn that one way or the other?

Eric: I doubt it. I think it’s just that Sirius says he watched them bury… otherwise there would be no point for… the mother would not still need to keep taking the potion at all while in jail, unless other prisoners were to see her or something, but yeah.

Micah: Yeah. And I did want to bring up something that LegalizeGillyweed mentioned in the Discord a while back, which was that this is another example of a mother’s sacrifice, and we see mother’s sacrifice coming into play quite a bit in this series.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And now we have two straight books where prisoners have eluded the Dementors and escaped Azkaban. I’ve got to imagine it’s happened before.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I do not see a good track record here for the Dementors.

Andrew: Yeah, pretty scary beings, creatures, but maybe not so effective at keeping Azkaban locked down. And maybe this should be a reminder to the Ministry that security needs to be beefed up. Needs to be a reminder at Hogwarts that you’re a bit of a security nightmare, and you need to beef up security as well. I mean, there’s no reason that Barty Crouch, Jr. should have been able to get away with this for as long as he did.

Eric: Right. You see a lot of good people doing the bad thing; even Barty Crouch, Jr.’s dad putting the Memory Charm on Bertha Jorkins should never have happened. There were a number of things that should have stopped this from happening that just didn’t. But to the point of the Dementors and having a weakness like this, I think to this point, Dumbledore intimates to Fudge in the next chapter that it’s a severe security issue to have the Dementors be the only ones guarding Azkaban, and Fudge just shrugs it off.

Micah: Especially when they can’t see what’s going on.

Eric: Right, right. But I mean, two books in a row, to your point, two escapes… we have to assume it’s been happening, because now that we know they’re fallible, we’re seeing just how broken, or how many… I do love that the author was able to invent two separate ways for a prisoner to escape Azkaban.

Andrew: Yeah, at least it’s not a blatant repeat.

Laura: We also just got done listening to Voldemort prattle on about how they’ll get the Dementors because “they’re our natural allies.” The clues are all here; you have an eyewitness to Voldemort’s resurrection literally saying, “Yep, the Dementors, they’re ours. They’re on our side.” And Fudge is just like, “No, no, I like them where they are.”

Eric: Well, that’s what P’s me O so much about this and the next chapter, is that you have a chapter in which truth serum is used, but it’s not being administered to Harry when Fudge disagrees with him or doesn’t believe it happened. You’ve seen the Pensieve in this book, but it’s not being used to prove to Fudge that Harry is telling the truth. There’s no real effort. Fudge is very closed-minded about it, but Dumbledore lets him choose… this is the next chapter’s discussion, but lets him choose to walk away basically without proving it to him. Harry is telling the truth, and if everyone could get on that page, this would be a lot easier. But here’s the problem that might be Dumbledore’s oversight: not bringing Fudge with him the first time when he’s feeding Barty Crouch, Jr. the truth serum.

Micah: I’ve thought a lot about that too. The fact that he’s not there is a big miss; I agree with you.

Andrew: It is. Again, chaotic moment. Maybe he wants to handle what’s going on at the scene of the crime.

Micah: Well, it’s not good for Dumbledore. I mean, Fudge could turn to him and say, “Look, buddy, this is four years going.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: And presumably even before that.

Andrew: “Time to take matters into my own hands.”

Micah: Yeah. Well, speaking of criminals, let’s talk about Winky a little bit because…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Great transition, but the people are begging for this, so I need to give it to them.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: The people listening live are asking.

Eric: You’ve got to give the people what they want.

Andrew: Yes, especially on our 19th anniversary.

Laura: Ask and you shall receive. [laughs]

Micah: Barty Crouch, Jr. is brought back home, and he is nursed back to health by Winky. I want to talk a little bit about Winky’s culpability in all of this, because she does a couple of things that are questionable at best, and she does have some responsibility for how events play themselves out. And I wanted to start with Bertha Jorkins, because… [laughs] I don’t know why I just said her last name like that. Did it sound…?

Andrew: “Jorgens.”

Eric: “Yaxley”!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Just saying names weird.

Micah: [laughs] Yeah, they’re related. Why doesn’t Winky better tend to Bertha? She could have easily said that Barty Crouch, Sr. wasn’t home and then sent Bertha on her way. The fact that she’s either invited in or allowed in to the point where she overhears the conversation with Barty Crouch, Jr., it seems like a little bit of an oversight on her part.

Andrew: I guess.

Eric: I sympathize with Winky. I sympathize with her, because at the same time, if you’re attending your master’s home, your master is away but will be back soon, why not invite the guest into the drawing room? Why not get them tea and biscuits, make them comfortable? Because ultimately, you don’t want to miss the person you’re calling for. Barty Crouch, Sr. would have wanted, if somebody stopped by to see him, to see that person. She did the right thing there. What I don’t like is the way she talks about Bertha to them in this scene, in this chapter, about her being nosy, and “Why didn’t she mind her own business?” And this, that, the other thing. That’s ugly, actually, and it’s a real shame because you do see Winky have this edge where she’s even telling Barty Crouch, Jr. to “Shh, quiet, you’re saying bad things, you’re getting us in trouble,” to try and get… she doesn’t realize he’s been true serumed. But there’s this conspiratorial aspect to her in this scene, and it’s gross, it’s ugly. Part of it, you have to believe, is because of the bondage that she has to the Crouches, but it just is not a good side to Winky here.

Laura: I feel like she’s trauma bonded to the Crouches.

Eric: At this point.

Laura: She doesn’t have a choice; this is all she’s ever known. And it’s really clear that Winky had somewhat of an elevated status as a house-elf with the Crouch family, because she was trusted with a lot more than household duties, right? I mean, she’s literally nursing his son – who’s on the lam and nobody knows that he’s out of prison – back to health and helping to keep him in check. And at the same time, she is allowed the autonomy to advocate for things that she thinks would be good for Crouch Junior, like, “Hey, you should let the kid go get some fresh air.”

Micah: “At the Quidditch World Cup.”

Laura: Yeah, “He hasn’t been outside in eight years, so…” [laughs]

Micah: Well, not only that, but basically using the death of his wife as the substance of her argument as to why Barty Crouch, Jr. should go to the Quidditch World Cup. I mean, talk about having personality. We talk about Dobby’s personality so much as a house-elf, but Winky really… she turns the screws here on Barty Crouch, Sr.

Andrew: It is interesting how all these points are related, how her relationship with the family has influenced a lot of this. And to the point about Bertha overhearing, I think that’s a very human moment. I think that’s a very relatable moment. You open the door for somebody and they hear the chaos that’s going on deeper into the house. I kind of like that it played out this way because it is such a common thing that occurs. [laughs]

Micah: Just to me, it played off as a little bit too convenient, because it was noted that she heard enough where she was able to piece things together. And it’s like, well, how much could you have really heard in the short time that you were there? Maybe, other than realizing that Barty Crouch, Jr. was alive, which in and of itself is problematic…

Eric: No, yeah, she overheard enough to know where his loyalties lie, basically, and that was enough to tip off Voldemort when he broke through the curse. Yeah, there are elements of this story that really seem like Barty Crouch, Sr. just left it to Winky to be Barty Junior’s entire caregiver, basically. Basically like a surrogate mom; like, “I’m not going to deal with matters of my son, who is revolting to me,” and then Winky has to be the person to be like, “He always liked Quidditch; you should let him go to Quidditch, to see Quidditch. It’ll make him happy.” Winky had to advocate for him. But it’s just a shame, because in the six or so months that Winky has been at Hogwarts, she has not told Dumbledore any of this, and that’s where the conspiratory element… again, Winky is not 100% pure here. There is sort of this dark side that comes out before she realizes the extent of Barty Crouch, Jr.’s crimes, and then after he’s confessed a fair bit of them, she is horrified and probably guilt-ridden.

Laura: Yeah. And again, I just feel like… I don’t even know that any of it’s nefarious from Winky, because again, it’s all she’s ever known. I mean, we see how desperate she was to have that life back, even after Crouch humiliated her and accused her of doing something she didn’t do, and I mean, banished her. I mean, he completely ripped the rug out from under her, and she still wanted to go back.

Micah: Yeah. And she does make an attempt at the Quidditch World Cup to keep Barty in check; it’s noted that “she used her own brand of magic,” whatever that means.

Andrew: Elf magic.

Micah: Elf magic, yeah. But only after, I think, realizing the error of her ways in advocating for Barty to be here, that it probably wasn’t the best idea at the end of the day, we do get some more information about the Quidditch World Cup itself. Obviously, Barty was there. He was under an Invisibility Cloak. He did steal Harry’s wand and use it to cast the Dark Mark following the Death Eater march, and Eric, if you can read this again, Barty is all about getting back at his fellow Death Eaters.

Eric: I forgot the voice I did earlier, but he says, “I wanted to show those Death Eaters what loyalty to the Dark Lord meant.”

Micah: Yeah. He’s full on fanatic.

Andrew: He is.

Eric: Yeah, this was being framed as the opportunity to be the faithful servant to his master that he never got to be, fully, properly, and presumably that thought alone, along with watching his father, knowing that his father was off in the distance suffering somewhere, kept him going all year.

Andrew: He’s just pissed at these traitors, and really wanted to be Voldemort’s guy.

Laura: He’s just so salty.

Andrew: [laughs] He is.

Micah: That’s a good word for him. Salty Barty.

Laura: Yeah, honestly, just kind of an edgelord. Like, “Oh, well, I suffered so much for the Dark Lord; what did you do for him?” That’s literally the energy. He’s 12 years old.

Andrew: And at this point he’s screwed. Why not lay all your cards on the table? Why not let your freak flag fly?

Micah: Well, we learn a little bit more about Barty Crouch, Sr. and the role he played in all of this before his untimely demise. I guess we can take these two things together, because I want to know how we feel, number one, about him using the Imperius Curse on his own son, but also the Memory Charm that he puts on his own colleague in Bertha Jorkins. And thinking back on it, had he not done this, things may have played out much differently.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: I don’t think she ends up coming across Voldemort, probably, at the end of the day, so it’s almost in some ways like the Crouches have their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Andrew: Well, yeah, and we were talking earlier about how the relationship between Senior and Junior is just broken. Senior, in Junior’s mind at least, betrayed his son, and I think putting Junior under the Imperius Curse really emphasizes the broken relationship that they have. It puts a point on it, and in a way, it’s like he was getting back at his wife for asking that they swap appearances as her dying wish. And not to mention that BCS had to think of a way to stop BCJ from looking for Voldy, so I get it. I get why he did it.

Eric: Yeah, but I mean, there’s something to be said for how complicated families are. But then there’s innocent Bertha Jorkins, the colleague who gets severely harmed and basically attacked by Barty Crouch, Sr. That’s the point into my mind where his ambition and personal self-gratification came over what was right, technically. It’s interesting, because Barty Senior didn’t win both times. The first time is it is said that his putting his own son in Azkaban was actually viewed negatively by the press, because they would have given him permission to be a little lenient, but now knowing that he’s chosen to do this to Bertha and it led to her death, no, he’s very clearly… he’s a bad person.

Micah: Totally. Yeah, and it makes it even worse that somebody like Percy looks up to him.

Eric: Well, yeah, because Percy just wants the power and wants to continue to… when it’s time to step down, at that point, that was a real watershed moment when Barty Crouch, Sr. was outed by Bertha. He could have agreed to come quietly, because again, knowing that the public didn’t like that he sent his son to Azkaban, how could they not be lenient on Barty Crouch, Sr. for rescuing his son from Azkaban then? They’d be sympathetic. He wouldn’t be allowed to still be Barty Crouch, Sr., Ministry Official, but you can imagine a world in which he himself doesn’t go to Azkaban for it, and then all would have come to light. Instead, he hides it. He buried it.

Micah: Yeah, there’s just something very wrong with a parent that would use an Unforgivable Curse on their own child. I mean, the sheer energy that that alone must take, the willpower, the psychological impact… regardless of how tough a guy he might come across as, I think it started to probably break him down, and maybe that is what led to him ultimately deciding to do what he does with Bertha.

Laura: Yeah. It is interesting how these cycles kind of perpetuate, too. A lot of our cues on life we learn from our parents, most of us, and this is a “Like father, like son” moment, because we know Barty Junior keeps the real Mad-Eye under the Imperius Curse all year so that he can easily pluck hairs from him to use in his Polyjuice Potion.

Micah: Yeah. And Barty Crouch, Sr. gets a taste of his own medicine when Voldemort and Wormtail show up at Casa de Crouch and put him under the Imperius. There’s a lot of Imperius Curse going on. We didn’t even realize it, but it’s probably the curse of Goblet of Fire.

Andrew: It’s this book’s Expelliarmus.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Well, it’s very relevant, because we hear this earlier in the book, and I think we might have heard it in a way from both Sirius and from Fakey, saying, “You have to imagine what it was like at the time. A lot of people were under the Imperius Curse, and you didn’t know who was actually operating with free will and who wasn’t.” And this book kind of perfectly illustrates what that looks like, because we have multiple characters subject to the Imperius Curse throughout this book, and we don’t find out until the end.

Micah: There’s something to be said for that level of control over somebody else and the fact that you don’t really have control over much of anything in life, and the fact that they’re trying to exert control over… whether it’s family members or colleagues, and the fact that it can be fought. It’s not just Harry who fights the Imperius Curse; both Crouches are able to fight it off, so who knows how effective it really is at the end of the day?

Andrew: I don’t know that it’s the term for this, but in the short term it’s super effective, and it seems like over time, you can work your way out of it.

Eric: That’s it. I want to point out that there’s a great big time difference between how long Barties are subjected to it versus Harry. Harry has a natural resistance we attribute to maybe the Horcrux being involved, but for both the Barties, it took a serious amount of time and prolonged exposure to be able to fight it.

Micah: Yeah, I also wonder, too – and this goes to the point just from earlier – how much energy, how much does that take from you to be able to perform an Unforgivable Curse on somebody for, let’s say, weeks, months?

Andrew: That’s a… yeah.

Micah: It has to be amazingly draining, and so for somebody like Barty Crouch, Sr., who has other responsibilities in his life… and this is also, regardless of their relationship, this is a family member. For Wormtail, as it relates to Barty Crouch, Sr., I don’t know. Wormtail is not the most effective wizard in the world.

Andrew: But it puts a point on how badly they want to put these people under these curses as well, that they want to commit to this. The physical energy that you’re talking about putting somebody under a curse like this for a long period, that’s got to be a lot of effort, so you’ve got to really despise this person. [laughs]

Micah: Right.

Eric: I wonder how it works when you’re asleep, like, when you’re asleep, how your will can continue to be exerted over…? That’s kind of a… not a plot hole, just an unexplained aspect of it, I think.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I could almost see the person doing the Imperius-ing being able to control when you sleep, so saying, “Hey, time for you to sleep,” so that you don’t get into anything without them knowing about it. It’s total control.

Micah: We do get a brief mention of how things went down at Mad-Eye Moody’s house; it was Wormtail and Barty Crouch, Jr. who ultimately overpowered Moody. I think maybe Wormtail doesn’t get enough credit for the role he plays sometimes, and just the things that he ends up being involved in. We mentioned he was a big part of the Imperius Curse on Barty Crouch, Sr. But just to wrap up with Barty Crouch, Sr., we learn about how ultimately he met his fate at Hogwarts and Crouch Junior learned about Crouch Senior escaping from their home, finally overcoming the Imperius Curse, wanting to make his way to Hogwarts to come clean, finally, with Dumbledore. But it’s that dang Marauder’s Map that comes into play for Crouch Junior, and he’s able to see his father arrive on the grounds. He murders him, turns him into a bone, and buries him in Hagrid’s garden. Now, if Sirius needed a bone in dog form that night, God forbid, and he digs up Barty Crouch, Sr…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: I don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to think about it.

Andrew: Oh, so Dumbledore wasn’t looking for a therapy dog. Got it.

Micah: Imagine if Padfoot is in Dumbledore’s office with Barty Crouch, Sr. in his mouth.

Andrew: [laughs] “Good boy.”

Eric: Well, and he said it was freshly upturned Earth.

Laura: I feel like it’s… I don’t know, I think it’s pretty likely that Fang would find that and just be vibin’ around Hagrid’s cabin. [laughs]

Micah: I feel like somebody on this show previously said this is a very Shakespearean death/burial. I’m not as well-versed in it, but I’d be interested to look it up.

Eric: Yeah, concealment and just the ways in which… it’s a heck of a death. It’s death and torture; it’s desecration of a body. It breaks additional laws. [laughs] Murder breaks a law, and then there… it’s preventing the last rights and the way in which we traditionally handle the dead. It really denies Barty Crouch, Sr. of the right to be buried properly. It’s an extra “F you.”

Laura: Yeah, it’s the classic son killing the father arc.

Micah: Well, that is really how the chapter wraps up, though, in everybody learning about what happened to Barty Crouch, Sr. Winky is in tears. Everybody else is just in shock in the room, and we finally know how everything played itself out throughout the course of the year without us knowing.

Eric: How would we say we rank this mystery now that it’s fresh? Do we think that this is a better mystery than, say, the fact that Peter Pettigrew is still alive, which was the last book’s mystery?

Andrew: There’s a lot of moving pieces in this one. You can read back the beginning of this book and see the early hints and building of this mystery. I think it’s a really good one.

Micah: I think what levels up the Peter Pettigrew mystery was the fact that he’d been with Harry and Ron through the first two years.

Andrew: Yeah, that was cool.

Eric: I can see that.

Micah: But I really do, for all the joking that we do about how this was rushed, I really do love the whole mystery of Barty Crouch, Jr. and basically how he did it. And it was very hard, I think, as a first time reader, to pick up on it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And he’s so damn proud of himself, too.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: This entire sequence is him just trying to think…

Eric: Gloating?

Laura: Yeah, I was trying to think of an age-appropriate way to say that. Yes, gloating.

Eric: Oh, what’s the non age-appropriate…? I’ll ask you later.

Laura: Yeah, we’ll talk about that.

Eric: He’s gloating, but it’s under truth. It’s crazy the way it’s written, because Veritaserum makes you go blank, right? It’s monotone, but he still is able to grin wildly at the best parts, which shows how gleeful regular Barty Crouch, Jr. would be if he weren’t on Veritaserum. Is that what you were saying?

Laura: Yes.


Odds & Ends


Micah: Well, a couple of odds and ends in this chapter: Of course, it is the seventh key that opens the compartment to where Moody is being held.

Eric: I love that we get treated to all six of the ones before it. Like, “Oh, this one is quills. Okay, great. What’s number two?” [laughs]

Micah: And it’s also worth mentioning that Karkaroff flees at the burning of the Dark Mark on his arm, so he is presumably out there somewhere. And then we touched on this a little, but I thought it was important to mention that using the Marauder’s Map can have serious consequences. And this was brought up particularly in Prisoner of Azkaban, and may have been more so a movie-ism than in the book – I can’t remember offhand – but when Lupin says directly to Harry, “Did you ever consider that in the wrong hands, this could be essentially a map for Sirius Black to get to you?” But it ends up being how Barty Crouch, Jr. is able to really monitor Hogwarts for weeks on end and ultimately kill his own father.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: No, and the craziest thing is that this is the chapter where Dumbledore finds out about the map.

Andrew: It’s crazy.

Eric: He’s like, “Map?” [laughs]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “The whosawhatsit?”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, “Huh? What?” And then Barty, in his subdued state, is just like, “Oh, yeah, Potter had a map, a map of Hogwarts.” Where did he…? What…? This should be news to Dumbledore because Dumbledore…

Andrew: And it’s been around a while.

Eric: Yeah, it’s been around a while. So that’ll go into my MVP, but just finding out… it is the right thing to tell Dumbledore. This is why it’s funny that Lupin is angry with Harry about it, but at the end of the book, to give Harry, presumably, an edge over Harry’s own rivals, he lets him keep the map and doesn’t mention its existence to Dumbledore. But Harry should have done the right thing and told Dumbledore that it existed, because again, there’s some obvious security holes here; there’s that which Dumbledore doesn’t choose to do, but Dumbledore can only go off the information he has, so sorry, Harry, this is a bit on you.

Micah: That does it for Chapter 35. Only a few things happening.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Big one. A big one for a big 19th anniversary party.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: And now it’s time for Most Valuable Person/Player/Wizard of the week!

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to the real Mad-Eye Moody for enduring months of torture at the hand of BCJ. He went through it this book; I feel terrible for him, so this is kind of a sympathy MVP award.

Eric: I love that. I love that so much. I love that we get a chance to meet the real Moody, and it turns out he’s cool in the next book. I’m going to give my MVP to all the Marauders, all four of them, because they successfully kept the secret of the map’s existence for decades. Even with both Remus and Sirius as allies in the present day, they did not tell Dumbledore, and it’s probably hard to keep a secret from Dumbledore.

Micah: Well, speaking of Dumbledore, I’m going to give it to Dumbledore’s ignorance…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … because without it, we wouldn’t have this great story.

Andrew: Aw, so true!

Laura: Man, that just dovetails perfectly into my MVP. I’m going to give it to Barty Crouch, Jr. He did it; he did the thing. He’s not getting to rest on his laurels and be celebrated the way that he is hoping he will, but he brought the Dark Lord back. Real turning point.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Laura: So thanks, BCJ. Is he a member of Congress now? Because I feel like it’s become super common to refer to members of Congress by their three initials.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Besides AOC, who is it that we do that for?

Laura: MTG. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, MTG, right. And I was thinking RBG, Supreme Court.

Andrew: Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, or you have any other senators who we refer to using their initials…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, we’ll discuss Chapter 36 of Goblet of Fire, “The Parting of the Ways.” Approaching the end here.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s Quizzitch question: Which three individuals appear in Mad-Eye Fakey’s Foe Glass when he takes Harry up there to kill him? And the correct answer is Snape, Dumbledore, and McGonagall. And correct answers were submitted by Buff Daddy; Dobby Salami; Dutch Hufflepuff; Edgar Albus Foe; Elizabeth K.; Helga Hufflepuff had a purring pink Pygmy Puff that huffed and puffed and blew her house down; Justice for Winky; Kennah Dawn Dish Soap that the House-Elves Use to Clean All Ron’s Dishes; LC; Niffleroni and extra cheese; Priori InCan’tBelieveIt’sNotButter; That’s my son, you bleep; The eye that Moody gets back; and WaterWizard. Next week’s Quizzitch Question: What six Death Eater names does Harry give directly to Fudge? And we look forward to you submitting the answer to this question using the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you go to the website and click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: There you’ll also find our transcripts, our social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, our contact form, and more. And don’t forget, we have a new bonus MuggleCast this week; we’re going to be discussing this new land coming to Universal Orlando, a Ministry of Magic-themed land across Paris and England? We’ll be talking about that. If you’re not an Apple Podcasts paid subscriber or patron, you can listen to it – this is new – visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll find the new bonus MuggleCast available for a one-time purchase of $3, and your support goes to running the show. And we’re excited to offer this new way to support us in exchange for more MuggleCast. This show is brought to you by Muggles like you; this is why we’ve run for 19 years and counting. We are an independent podcast, but running a business is expensive and boring and not fun. It takes a lot of time and effort. I just had to fill out a census form earlier today; it’s like, “Oh, this is so boring.” So what are some ways you can help us out to make it less boring? Well, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free, early access to MuggleCast plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And then there’s also Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, planning docs, the chance to co-host the show one day, a new physical gift every year, the MuggleCast Collectors Club, video message from one of the four of us, and more. And throughout the year, we throw in other surprise benefits. For example, patrons were the first to access the overstock store and grab T-shirts that we’ve had from the last two decades. So thanks, everybody. And if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and to also help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. So that does it for this week’s episode. Happy 19th anniversary; cheers to the next 19. I’m Andrew, and a proud Dumbledore fan.

Eric: I’m Eric, and it’s been a deep pleasure bringing this to your earholes every year.

Micah: I’m Micah, choo-choo.

Laura: [laughs] And I’m Laura. Happy anniversary, y’all.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Transcript #667

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #667, That’s My Killing Wand! (GOF Chapter 34, Priori Incantatem)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, prepare for another installment of Voldemort did an oopsie-poopsie by not thinking things through. [laughs] Oopsie-poopsie? Oopsie-whoopsie.

Laura: Oopsie-poopsie! You never heard that term?

Andrew: Oopsie-poopsie.

Eric: This makes me uncomfortable.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Me too, me too.

Laura: You know what, though? There is one bonus: Harry gets a family reunion out of the whole situation, so silver linings.

Andrew: Well, helping us with today’s discussion, we are joined by one of our Slug Club patrons, Elizabeth. Welcome to the show, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth: Glad to be here.

Andrew: It’s nice to have you. Thank you so much for joining us and for your support on Patreon. Can we please get your fandom ID?

Elizabeth: So favorite book, I went with the Half-Blood Prince. It’s a good one, getting the backstory of Voldemort. Favorite movie, Order of the Phoenix. Love to hate on Umbridge.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Elizabeth: And then I’ve gone to different family members to movies, but this was one where I didn’t have Harry Potter friends in the area to go with, and I think my sister I usually go with had gone. But I had a coworker friend who was very big into Harry Potter and he invited me to tag along with him and his girlfriend when they went to the movie, and so that was a special memory because about five or so years later, I ended up getting tough phone call that he had passed, and so just having that memory with him was just meaningful. And then I wasn’t able to travel back to the area for the funeral but I had someone else who went, and they had some of his posters or different things from the movie, so I have a little banner from one of the movies that had belonged to him, so I have that as a keepsake.

Andrew: That’s really sweet.

Laura: That’s really touching.

Elizabeth: Not to be too much of a downer, but I wanted to shout out the memory of Seth, was his name.

Laura: Yeah, 100%. I mean, we all have such deep connections to these stories and to each other because of them, so I’m really happy that you felt comfortable sharing. Thank you for that.

Andrew: And have that memory to remember him through.

Elizabeth: I think he was Gryffindor, so he was brave until the end.

Andrew: Aww. And what’s your Hogwarts House?

Elizabeth: I’m kind of torn between being Gryffinpuff or Huffledor. And then Patronus, the Nebelung cat.

Andrew: Okay, unique.

Laura: Oooh, that’s cool.

Elizabeth: For those that are watching, I have a cat Patronus necklace that I got at LeakyCon.

Eric: Ooh.

Andrew: Perfect.

Laura: Oh, that’s so beautiful.

Andrew: Yeah, awesome. Well, welcome again, Elizabeth, and it’s thanks to support from listeners like Elizabeth that we are a weekly podcast, doing a complete reread of the Harry Potter series as we get ready for the Harry Potter TV series adaptation. That’s my new line for everybody now, by the way.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: We’re doing this complete reread to get ready for the TV show; that’s been the plan all along. Wink, wink.

Laura: Of course it has been. Why wouldn’t it be?

Andrew: [laughs] Visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to pledge and receive benefits like bonus episodes of MuggleCast, access to the MuggleCast Collectors Club, ad-free MuggleCast, and more.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: And without further ado, it’s time to get into that reread of Harry Potter, and this week, we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 34, “Priori Incantatem.” And we will start like we always do with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: Echoes…

Micah: … confront…

Elizabeth: … the…

Eric: … dark…

Andrew: … past…

Eric: … and…

Elizabeth: … spells.

Andrew: Laura, I love that you started that with “Echoes.” That’s a good way to kick it off.

Eric: It was good. It was good.

Laura: Yeah, sometimes the opportunity presents itself. The seven-word summary is a challenge, and I do like it when I get the chance to kick off the summary because I feel like it’s less pressure to have the first word, because you’re like, “I get to decide the direction of this.” So I was excited for this one.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: But actually, Eric, I think it was you that had put in a brief mini discussion about “Prior to Priori.” [laughs]

Eric: Mostly so I could call this little pre-section “Prior to Priori.” I thought it was a… yeah.

Laura: Right, I mean, it’s very clever, and I don’t want to take credit for it.

Eric: Well, look, we were discussing this. The chapter is pretty straightforward. There is this whole thing with Priori Incantatem, but prior to that, prior, there’s just this brief little moment for Voldemort to continue chewing with his food, or chewing with Harry, essentially. And part of it has Harry receiving the Cruciatus Curse, which sounds awful when Harry is under it, and it’s pretty much the worst thing you could feel sustained. But the thing that really got me excited was seeing and reading the Death Eaters’ reaction when Voldemort then tries the Imperius Curse. He wants Harry to give up or say he’s had enough, and when Harry resists the curse, it’s quite a moment. And I’m thinking that because we got this huge recap, I mentioned the last time we did this chapter, Voldemort is feeling kind of chatty. We already found out that people believed maybe baby Harry had some hidden powers, that he was maybe stronger than Voldemort and that’s why Voldemort failed, and so Voldemort moments ago was trying to disprove this, but he’s like, “I’m going to kill the boy.” And then when he can’t successfully complete the Imperius Curse on him, that’s actually more in the favor of, “Wait a minute. Did we just watch this young boy resist the Dark Lord’s curse?” And it’s wild.

Laura: Yeah, and this isn’t the first time we get to see Harry do this. Earlier in the year, when Harry was being put under the Imperius Curse during Defense Against the Dark Arts, I think it was Moody who had him under the curse trying to make him do a dance or something silly, and Harry was just like, “Nope, I’m not doing it.” So he’s already had practice resisting the effects of the Imperius Curse by Voldemort’s right hand man. Even though Peter Pettigrew thinks that he’s the right hand man, he’s not really. He’s not that important. [laughs]

Eric: Well, he did just lose… he just cut off his right hand, so it goes to somebody else. But are you suggesting, Laura, that Fakey, as we’ve been calling him, has inadvertently trained Harry for this moment of resisting Voldemort?

Laura: Yeah, I think so. Throughout the year.

Eric: What could his possible motive be for that?

Laura: I wonder if he even thought that Voldemort would be putting Harry under Imperius to begin with? If he’s thinking in a very linear fashion about the point of getting Harry to Voldemort, it’s so that Voldemort can kill him. Maybe he wasn’t anticipating that Voldemort was going to want to play with his food a little bit. Maybe he thought he’d want to get it out of the way more quickly. Maybe he didn’t anticipate that Harry would be able to resist the curse in the moment. I think that’s actually one of the ways that Fakey also didn’t completely think things through; I think he was taken by his own genius, and he thought he was going to be able to lord these Unforgivable Curses over the literal object of his Dark Lord’s failure, and it didn’t work. So I think that was probably a surprise to him, and probably why it never happened again, or why he never tried to do that to Harry at other points in the year.

Eric: That’s a really good point. In the later books, I don’t think Voldemort ever tries that specific thing again, so I think this moment makes him scared of Harry a little bit.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, he should be. You got beat by this kid as an infant, and here you are again. [laughs]

Eric: It’s funny because it is a sort of… I was going to say tenuous; is that a word? It’s really a fragile relationship between Harry and Voldemort here, because Voldemort does fear Harry, but he’s not prepared to admit it. And I know, Micah, I think it’s probably you, because it’s always been you, when we were discussing the Imperius Curse in class earlier in the year, you asked, “Is it the Horcrux that is what gives Harry this advantage to resist the Imperius?” The fact that you’re trying to control somebody who kind of has two minds about it, and so Harry is literally like, “Why would I dance? I don’t want to dance. Why would I jump? I don’t want to jump.” So it’s interesting to see if maybe the Horcrux is what’s giving Harry the ability to resist Voldemort, whose mind he literally shares.

Micah: So I do think that there is the possibility that the Horcrux played a role in the resistance of the Imperius Curse, just knowing the fact that Voldemort is very skilled in the Dark Arts and he himself likely would not have allowed something like the Imperius Curse to affect him. There’s that, but I also think Harry is very skilled at Defense Against the Dark Arts. Now, we could get into the whole conversation about whether or not that’s because he has a Horcrux within him, but I would like to give a little bit of an edge to Harry here, though, just given the fact that he was trained by Barty Crouch, Jr. earlier this year and he has shown the ability to resist the curse before, and there’s a lot of willpower within him in this particular chapter.

Laura: Elizabeth, as a Gryffinpuff, would you say that this strikes you as a uniquely Gryffindor moment, Harry being able to resist the Imperius Curse being cast on him by Voldemort?

Elizabeth: I think it’s got that Gryffindor grit, but also still has a little bit of maybe the Slytherin want to show them a little bit with the cunning.

Laura: Yeah, that’s actually a really good call out. I think sometimes we can be quick to attribute acts just on their face look like bravery; we’re really quick to be like, “Oh, that’s a Gryffindor thing,” but in reality, to have the drive and the motivation to be able to work through something like that, I can totally see that being a Slytherin trait. So it’s a good point. Well, getting into our main discussion, I really wanted us to talk a little bit about how Priori Incantatem works. Obviously, we know the mechanics of it, as described in the chapter. Harry and Voldemort, because their wands share brother cores – their cores are both phoenix feathers that come from Fawkes the phoenix, who is also conveniently Dumbledore’s phoenix – they cannot fight each other. So what happens is they’re essentially connected and resisting fighting each other, and we see these little bulbs, orbs of light begin to appear along the spectrum that is linking these two wands, and Harry has the intrinsic instinct that he doesn’t know what those things are, but he’s going to focus all of his attention on trying to push them away from his wand to Voldemort’s. But before we go too far down the rabbit hole of what happens in this chapter with Priori Incantatem, I think we have an old school name origin that Micah brought for us today. Can you can you share, Micah?

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Andrew: I always add the “Whoa” part.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: So I’m going in the Wayback Machine to the name origins section of MuggleNet.com, but this actually came straight off of Google, but I thought it could be fun to decipher what exactly the spell means, right? And it is rooted in Latin. “A priori” is a Latin phrase which means “from the earlier,” and the word “incantatem” is a Latin word that means “to sing” or “to recite,” and that’s very appropriate here, given the fact that we get spells or echoes from earlier on when Voldemort used his wand, and that there is a lot of phoenix song that is present in this particular moment. So I thought that was fun.

Andrew: Could you say that the phoenix singing is what is extracting these spells from earlier? What comes first; you know what I’m saying? Because “sing” or “recite” is the second word in this phrase, in this magic, I’m just wondering if the singing is what is actually causing the extraction to occur, since it’s such a big part.

Laura: Oooh.

Eric: I like that a lot. I think this is ultimately a different Priori Incantatem than the one that we see cast in the woods at the Quidditch World Cup, isn’t it? Amos Diggory grabs the wand that Winky used and just recites “Priori Incantatem!” and they see the Dark Mark get cast.

Laura: Right.

Eric: It’s a shadow of a spell. That part’s similar, but what’s not similar is this phoenix song, because the phoenix song wasn’t there originally. I would question whether Voldemort also hears the phoenix song, or whether that’s exclusive to Harry. Part of me that says it isn’t exclusive to Harry is knowing that the two wands share a phoenix core, but the phoenix song…

Micah: I don’t know that Voldemort would care either. I don’t know that that’s probably in his mind, because…

Andrew: [imitating Voldemort] “I don’t have time for music! Who cares about this?”

Micah: “I gotta find my nose.”

Andrew: “Shut up, bird!”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s just interesting because phoenixes were a very big blind spot in year two for Tom Riddle. This Voldemort didn’t have those experiences with Harry in the Chamber, but phoenix song there related deeply to Dumbledore and related deeply to Harry being in need. And so it’s an interesting connection that I don’t think is ever given a real explanation for why this Priori Incantatem is different and why the phoenix is there.

Micah: It’s also very comfortable for Harry, and anything that’s comfortable for Harry likely would not be comfortable for Voldemort.

Elizabeth: I actually did find something because I was wondering about that with their phoenix cores, and so I was checking, looking for more about phoenixes, and in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, it actually does bring the whole hearing the song aspect into it.

“Phoenix song is magical: It is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the heart of the impure.”

Laura: Ooh.

Elizabeth: So that was pretty exciting to read. I was like, “Oh, if Harry was hearing that song and it was motivating him, what was Voldemort hearing that might have been putting some fear into him?”

Laura: Yeah. I actually love that find, because it explains why Harry is able to focus on propelling the beads towards Voldemort’s wand and why Voldemort is more vulnerable to it. That’s a really great find. Thank you for looking that up.

Eric: Betrayed by his own wand core. Voldemort… that wasn’t on his bingo card.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah, maybe he should have taken note, because it happens again a few books later.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. Voldemort is not a learning creature; I think we’ve come to realize this. He makes a lot of the same mistakes over and over again. But while we’re talking about phoenixes, specifically the phoenix feather cores of Harry and Voldemort’s wands, I had a question: Since we find out that both of those wand cores come from Fawkes, do we think that Fawkes was keyed in any way into what was happening in the cemetery? Did Fawkes know?

Eric: Yeah, Fawkes got a little itch on his tail where the feathers used to be that made this wand. He’s like, “Ooh.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That’s how he knows something’s about… is going down right now, yeah.

Eric: His tail’s a-tinglin’.

Micah: You joke, Eric, but was he just hanging out in Dumbledore’s office humming the whole time? Dumbledore sitting there with his legs crossed up on the desk; he knows what’s going down.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Ooh, I love this song.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Probably.

Laura: Well, Dumbledore is at the maze, right? He’s still…

Micah: So we think.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] Micah doesn’t trust Dumbledore.

Eric: Dumbledore just peaced out, went back to his office.

Laura: He’s like, “Oh, whatever. They’ll be back when they’re back.”

Andrew: I do like the idea of it just simply being a tingle that Fawkes is experiencing right now, given that Fawkes is within these wands and something very powerful is happening right now. So I’m sure Fawkes is being notified in some way.

Laura: Yeah. It’s like a phantom feather situation.

Eric: I mean, when it was in the Chamber of Secrets, Fawkes was able to fly down and actually enter the Chamber. But I think this is a little far for Fawkes to all of a sudden appear, so the phoenix song instead, which is emblematic of the core of their wands… I think it’s… now I’m convinced, based on our conversation and what Elizabeth found, that Voldemort does hear it, and that’s why he’s really extra unnerved, in addition to this just being magic he’s probably never seen before and certainly wasn’t expecting to prepare for, I think. Yeah, it’s probably that they both can hear it.

Micah: It’s telling, though, that given all the preparation that he’s done for this particular night, he didn’t think it through any further than just his body being regenerated and that he was going to go and kill Harry. He doesn’t anticipate that something else could potentially get in the way, and given what’s happened to him previously, I think that’s a massive blind spot.

Eric: Is it an oopsie-poopsie?

[Micah laughs]

Laura: That’s an oopsie-poopsie.

Andrew: An oopsie-voopsie. Add that V for Voldemort. A voopsie.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I was going to bring this up later, but Voldemort is also just wasting time once he ends up dueling with Harry prior to Priori Incantatem, because he’s doing Crucio, he’s doing Imperio… he could have just AK’d Harry right at the outset and gotten this over with really quickly, but instead, he wants to put on a show for the Death Eaters. He wants to probably make Harry suffer for a longer period of time, and he’s very confident he’s going to win, and it’s Voldemort’s ego getting in the way again.

Laura: Yeah. My man has a massive hubris problem, for sure.

Andrew: [laughs] “My man.”

Laura: And it’s ultimately his downfall.

Eric: Well, that’s why I love in the movie version, he’s just happy to be alive. He’s like, [imitating Voldemort] “Yeah, yeah!”

Andrew: [laughs] “Body! Body-ody-ody-ody!”

Eric: “I’m a body-ody-ody!”

Laura: See, I hate that, personally.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, that’s fair. Still your favorite movie, though.

Laura: No. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, it’s not?

Laura: No, it’s my favorite book.

Eric: I thought it was both. Okay.

Laura: No. I have more love for the Goblet of Fire movie after we did our commentary on it, I have more appreciation for it now, but it’s not my favorite movie.

Eric: Okay, that’s my bad.

Laura: That’s a tie between Prisoner of Azkaban – I know, blasphemy – and Deathly Hallows – Part 1.

Eric: When we return from this ad break, there will be one fewer MuggleCaster.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: [laughs] We’re kicking her off the show.

Laura: Elizabeth, do you want a job?

[Everyone laughs]

[Ad break]

Andrew: Speaking of Priori Incantatem and just how it works, I do love the visual of the wands meeting and then the beams of light were shooting up and around them. And in Muggle terms, I was kind of envisioning this as two beams of water basically hitting each other, and because they’re not going to go into each other, they just kind of go outward. But I was wondering if y’all saw any other symbolism here with the way the light is reflecting out, if you will. Is it almost kind of a circular… it’s cyclical, in a way?

Laura: Yeah. Well, it also separates Harry and Voldemort from the Death Eaters, right?

Eric: They become lifted up; they’re sort of levitated, sort of like the rules of gravity and nature don’t apply. You’re really given the sense, based on the description of things, that this is not something that happens commonly, and that this is something that is just way different type of magic. So I really like that there is that spell barrier between Voldemort, Harry, and the rest of the Death Eaters. But then also, they’re lifted up and set down maybe 100 feet, somewhere different than where they took off from, and it’s just this wild, weird connection, this fluke of whatever spellcraft is supposed to do.

Laura: Okay, so Eric, I’ve got to ask you about Harry’s instincts here. I love the notes that you’ve added here, because I think in general, you’ve been someone over the history of the show who has been really attuned to Harry’s instincts and how they serve him, so just curious for your thoughts around his instincts with knowing – while also not quite knowing – what to do with this beam of light and these beads that are sliding down it towards his wand.

Eric: Yeah, I’m grateful to dive into this a little bit, because I’ve been critical of Harry at times. He’s not a great student, but he is a hero. He’s not just the hero of these books; he’s a hero. And a lot of what he has that gives him the ability to overcome Voldemort, as we were just talking about, comes from Voldemort himself. But there’s something here that I think goes a little bit beyond that, and it’s really Harry’s gut instinct and this voice that tells him, “Don’t let go. Don’t let go of your wand.” And furthermore, Harry intuits – even though this is magic that probably not even Voldemort has ever seen before – Harry nevertheless gets this sense that what he’s got to do is angle his wand and get the beads to not ever enter his own wand, or it would all be over for him. And this is not something that you can teach. This is… I don’t even think this is magic taught at Hogwarts. The only type of people who mess with this type of magic are Ollivander, who makes wands. And so the fact that Harry is able to reasonably guess what to do… now, I mean, us, we’ve all played a bunch of video games where there’s a beam coming at you and you’ve got to get the beam back, but for Harry, this is entirely new and scary, and he nevertheless has this keen insight on what to do. And so I don’t know where that comes from, but I do tend to think of it as being Harry’s and not something Voldemort gave him, and not something… well, maybe his parents gave him because they’re both good Order of the Phoenix members. But yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Andrew: I definitely like your points. I think there is something inherently concerning about seeing a beam or a bead head towards you in the middle of a duel like this. It’s almost like tug of war. Just instinctually, you’re like, “This is getting too close to comfort for me. This means Voldemort’s side of this duel is about to take me down, so I need to push back really hard.” So I think there might be just a symbolic hint here, too, that “I don’t want this bead hitting my side of the table, because it’s not going to go well for me.”

Eric: Right. Like, “This came from him? Oh, this is not going to be good.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I get that. That’s your natural survival skills. Once a book, Harry is… it’s down to this for Harry, always. There’s always a moment. But yeah, this advanced magic, the idea that he can even control this, goes back to why he was so good at the Patronus Charm, why he mastered that a bit faster than everyone else. He struggled at first, but eventually he got there a lot sooner than other people do. And so… riding a broomstick. Harry is just naturally gifted. I think this is what makes him a good hero, is that he can do these heroic acts.

Micah: I do like the point you brought up about it being instinctual, and I think part of it, too, is the fact that Harry realizes the playing field has been leveled, that Voldemort in this moment is just as scared of what’s going on as he is, and that, to some extent, gives Harry an upper hand, because given where he was just a few moments earlier, this is the best possible scenario for him to be in, even with that little beam coming towards him.

Andrew: It is noted in the chapter that Voldemort had no more expected this than Harry had, and it’s another miss by Voldemort because he just admitted last chapter that he made a mistake in forgetting about the power of love, and here’s another event he wasn’t prepared for.

Eric: It’s that hubris that Laura mentioned. It was like, “Oh, it was the power of love; I fixed it. Ha, ha, ha.” Wait, you don’t actually know what it is you’re talking about because you’re still ten ways to Sunday connected to this boy, and you can’t kill him.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: He hasn’t figured that part out yet. But Harry is ultimately successful, and when these beads reach Voldemort’s wand, Voldemort’s wand begins emitting these echoes that we talked about at the top of the episode with the seven-word summary, and they are the most recent people that Voldemort has killed in reverse order. So we start with Wormtail’s hand, [laughs] but we also get people like Bertha Jorkins. We get Frank Bryce. We get Harry’s parents. We get Cedric. Cedric comes after Wormtail’s hand; I had that out of order.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling had the order messed up, too, so don’t worry about it. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, that’s honestly…

Andrew: And we’ll talk about that in a minute.

Laura: Yeah, me messing that up is not as big of a deal as her messing that up, or her editors, quite frankly, messing that up.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But Dumbledore really does describe… because Harry thinks these are ghosts at first, and we can understand why, because they talk to him and they circle around in this arena that has been formed around Harry and Voldemort, and they’re encouraging Harry but taunting Voldemort, so it’s easy to see why he would think that they were ghosts. But Dumbledore describes these as reverse echoes, so they would maintain some characteristics of their living selves, but not actually ghosts, and it makes sense because they’re not permanent, right? Their time with us in this chapter is very short.

Eric: They buy Harry about 30 seconds after the connection is broke, which is just enough time. They also know things that it’s impossible for Harry to know. It’s interesting because I was reminded of the Resurrection Stone scene in Deathly Hallows, where I think it’s explained that they’re just reflections of what’s in Harry’s heart. But James, for instance – the reflection echo of James – tells Harry to go back to the Portkey, and there’s no reason that Harry should believe that that would work, and the only way he could know it is if James’s knowledge is shared with Voldemort’s knowledge. Because these came from Voldemort’s wand, which is an extension of Voldemort himself and Voldemort’s magic, maybe these echoes know it because Voldemort knows it.

Laura: Hmm. That’s so interesting.

Micah: Yeah, that was something that stood out to me, too, is the knowledge of the functionality of the Portkey. It seems very strange that they would know that.

Andrew: Well, somebody’s got to give him the advice. I mean, Cedric’s body isn’t about to wake up again and be like, “Head for the Portkey! Don’t forget about the Portkey!” But yeah, that is convenient, I guess, let’s say.

Eric: I guess Voldemort could have shouted at his Death Eaters, “Don’t let him get near the Portkey! It’ll take him back!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Actually, I would have preferred that, I think.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It’s interesting, though, that Cedric asks Harry to take his body back, because that’s just a level of awareness and object permanence that this echo has to have, to understand, “My physical form is laying there dead. I want it to go back to my family.”

Andrew: Could it be because it’s so recent that the echo still remembers the body there? To your point about object permanence.

Laura: Yeah, maybe. Very likely.

Eric: There is something here about… and it’s all the times we see there’s an echo or imprints of departed souls. There’s ghosts; there’s portraits. A lot of these are impressions of the people with varying parts of their personality, and it’s very interesting. But you’re right, I think, Laura, in pointing out the Cedric connection; that he’s emotionally invested in and tells Harry to take his body back would be something a ghost would say, I think, more than a portrait.

Laura: Yeah. I think it might explain why we never see these sorts of echoes again; I think because they’re a little too confusing to explain and differentiate from ghosts.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: Apart from the fact that they don’t linger very long, but that’s about it. I did have a “What if?”

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Laura: What if Voldemort had not been deterred by the phoenix song, and had been successful in making Harry’s wand spit out echoes of recent magic he’s performed?

Micah: Snooze fest.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Why? Why would it be a snooze fest?

Micah: Is anything even going to come out of Harry’s wand?

Eric: Probably not. Expelliarmus?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, you would see former spells that he did, like the recent ones, like Impedimenta and…

Eric: Couple of Death Eaters might have gotten hit with a shadow of Impedimenta.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: No thanks. I’m good with the way it played out.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Well, I do think it could have been impactful, though, because if let’s say an embarrassing or basic spell or two came out, maybe Voldemort sees that and he’s like, “That’s all you got? You don’t do anything better than this? You’re the one who brought me down, and you’re just doing some Accios? You’re lazy. Get up and pick up that quill.” So maybe it could have thrown Harry off his game a little bit if Voldemort had new things to trash talk him with.

Eric: “Harry, I feel so sorry for you.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “You don’t know any good spells. You should just walk away. I’ll come find you in two years. Get better.”

Andrew:Evanesco? Did you just…?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “What were you using that one for?”

Laura: Hey, listen. Listen.

Micah: To get rid of the oopsie-poopsie.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Harry is like, “Listen, that maze was long and big; it was dark…”

Laura: “And there were no port-o-potties.”

Eric: “There were no port-o-potties!”

Laura: [laughs] Micah, I hear what you’re saying about it being a snooze fest, but I have to ask… and I wanted to ask everyone about this, because it strikes me as odd that everything recent coming out of Voldemort’s wand in reverse order is all killing people. Is every single spell he has done in the last year the Killing Curse? Has he never had to Lumos or Alohomora? [laughs]

Andrew: That’s what Wormtail is for.

Eric: Wormtail to do it for him, yeah. Although, presumably Wormtail used Voldemort’s wand to kill Cedric just then because…

Laura: Right.

Micah: And Frank Bryce.

Eric: Well, here’s the thing… and Frank Bryce. But it was hard for Voldemort to use a wand, and that’s why Lily and James are even in the picture here, is because without a body, even with his little infant body, you only get Frank Bryce murder. Voldemort was not holding his own wand. I wonder how Voldemort…

Micah: And presumably not for Bertha Jorkins either.

Laura: Right?

Eric: Well, because he broke her Memory Charm, presumably with a series of Crucios. But I don’t even know what Crucio would look like in reversed or shadow form.

Micah: A lot of this work was assisted by Wormtail.

Eric: Yeah, so maybe Wormtail’s wand had all the other spells on it, and Voldemort preferred to use his phoenix feather wand for the killing.

Micah: What I find most striking, though, is that there was really nothing at all in between Bertha Jorkins and the Potters.

Laura: Right, that’s the other thing. [laughs]

Eric: Well, he went 13 years without a body. He didn’t have an arm.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Right.

Micah: So Bertha was the first thing that his wand was used on in 13 years?

Andrew: Does that not surprise you, though? I mean, Voldemort is a sick person.

Micah: That’s what I’m saying.

Andrew: I would not be surprised if he had… like, that’s his killing wand. That’s all he does with that wand.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He doesn’t turn on the lights. He doesn’t Accio a quill. He doesn’t clean up when he oopsie-whoopsies on the floor.

Eric: There’s the episode title. “That’s my killing wand.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, it’s not stated, but Voldemort’s wand should be buried in Godric’s Hollow, in the rubble of the former Potter house. There’s no reason to think that Voldemort’s wand would have made the journey with him through the ethereal plane after Voldemort lost his body and was ripped from it, essentially. There’s no reason to think that his wand would have gone with him, so maybe Wormtail must have taken it with him to find him in Albania. There’s no reason Voldemort had his wand the last 13 years.

Laura: I like the idea of Wormtail, after he fakes his death and incriminates Sirius, using his newfound anonymity as a dead person to go to the wreckage and the rubble of the Potters’ house and dig out Voldemort’s wand.

Micah: Elizabeth, what do you make of all this?

Elizabeth: It seems like it’s only recalling the deaths, so I wonder if there’s something to the Priori Incantatem where it’s limited to what kind of spells it could bring back.

Andrew: It could be, yeah.

Laura: That’s interesting.

Elizabeth: I mean, because we don’t see anything of Harry’s in the mix.

Andrew: And certainly, it’s more cinematic for only the people he has killed to come out of the wand.

Eric: If this were Hogwarts Legacy, you would get that symbol that you had to learn with the controller to get the spell the first time.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: You would see that pop out like shadows.

Andrew: I alluded to earlier that Rowling got the deaths out of order when they were coming out of Voldemort’s wand; I’d forgotten about this until I was doing some research for this chapter. In the first edition of Goblet of Fire released back in July 2000, James actually came out of the wand first when it should have been Lily, and this was corrected in later editions of the book. Fans had questions about this when they read it. Even still today, there’s new Reddit threads popping up because people buy used copies of the first edition of Goblet of Fire, and they’re like, “Wait, what? Why is James coming out first?” Rowling was getting so many questions about this that she actually posted a little piece on her old website in the FAQ section, and she said at the time… so the question on her site was, “At the end of Goblet, in which order should Harry’s parents have come out of the wand?” And then Rowling confirmed,

“Lily first, then James. That’s how it appears in my original manuscript, but we were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast, and my American editor thought that was the wrong way around, and he is so good at catching small errors, I changed it without thinking, then realized it had been right in the first place. We were all very sleep-deprived at the time.”

So I think at least a couple of us probably have this incorrect edition of Goblet of Fire, which is pretty cool. And now when I go to used bookstores, I’m going to start keeping an eye out for those first edition Goblets, because that seems valuable to me as a Potter fan and collector. That’s something I’d like to have multiple copies of.

Laura: Well, yeah, then you flip it on eBay.

Andrew: Yeah!

Eric: It’s kind of world breaking, too, to think that maybe James somehow survived his duel with Voldemort and was there longer than we thought he was.

Andrew: Yeah. Right.

Eric: If you really take it as not a mistake, you can extrapolate some fun fan theories or whatever from there.

Micah: To me, maybe it’s not a major oversight, but it’s still something that should have been caught by an editor.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, it’s a pretty critical scene.

Eric: Are you even reading these books, bro?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: I do love how she throws her US editor under the bus specifically. I didn’t realize this was a US edition-only issue.

Micah: That’s Arthur Levine, right?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and we’ve joked a lot about this book being rushed, and we’ve mostly meant it as a joke, but this might be the single piece of concrete evidence that this book truly was rushed. I mean, Rowling even admits on her site that they were under enormous pressure to edit it very fast, and they were sleep-deprived at the time. This was the last book she wrote under deadline, and it’s probably because of things like this.

Micah: I just can’t imagine the number of eyeballs that read that book before it ends up being published. And I know there was a lot of secrecy around the Harry Potter series because they didn’t want information to leak. But how many people do we think read that book before it went to publication?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I can see it being easy to miss, though.

Andrew: Yeah. And when people are editing a book, they’re looking more for a forgotten word or a typo. Stuff like that. Maybe there are fact-checkers who also worked on the Harry Potter books. I don’t know.

Eric: I wouldn’t have seen it as a continuity error.

Andrew: I do still consider this a pretty big oversight, the fact that this made it to print.

Eric: Yeah, it is a big deal, but I think also, if I were J.K. Rowling’s editor in this book, I probably would have taken her word for it if the text originally said this. This is a weird thing with magic. Maybe it’s an opportunity to leave the clue that James survived the initial assault with Voldemort; this would be a perfect way to launch the “James Potter is Remus Lupin in disguise” theory.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Because James wouldn’t have died until, let’s say, years later, so he’s showing up here after Lily. But it’s just one of those things where maybe it would have… I’d like to think I would have done the right thing and be like, “Jo, are you sure about this?” But I probably just would’ve been like, “I’m going to let her go.”

Micah: If I were the US editor, my rationale would probably have been that James died first, therefore he should appear first. That’s probably what he was thinking.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Exactly. And I do think it is a little more cinematic – I’m using that word a lot – for Lily to come out last because she is so crucial, arguably more crucial than James, so it makes more sense for Lily to come out last, the grand reveal, the grand finale.

Laura: Yeah. I think it’s interesting in the movie how they have them come out basically at the same time. Do y’all remember that?

Andrew: So they didn’t have to worry about it in editing. “Who comes out first?” “Eh, who cares? They’re coming out at the same time.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Why does it stop at the Potters? Why doesn’t it keep going to the Riddles?

Eric: Right. Well, the Riddles were many years ago, but other people during the first war… I think because we’d have no emotional connection to them.

Micah: What is time, really?

Andrew: Cinematic. Got to end on the Potters.

Eric: We wouldn’t know who the other people are. It’s like the way the Mirror of Erised works in the book where Harry sees dozens of cousins and aunts and uncles and all these other people, that we’ll never, ever, ever, ever meet, in the Mirror of Erised.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, if Voldemort kept going, it would have been more echoes than Death Eaters in the graveyard.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And Dumbledore says that later on.

Micah: Oh, does he?

Laura: Yeah, he says, “If it had continued going, I expect you would have seen more of his victims.”

Micah: Wow.

Laura: Yeah, so it would’ve just kept…

Eric: So it’s just as many to make an impact, to startle Voldemort, to buy Harry the time he needs, and to get him a little bit closer to his parents, which is… I think that’s very important in these books, that gradually you get closer and closer and closer. I think this really comes to a head when he visits Godric’s Hollow and their house and their graves in Deathly Hallows. But it’s nice to get a little tidbit. And in the next book, he sees James in the Pensieve, so it’s even closer.

Laura: All right, we are going to go pick up our copies of Goblet of Fire and see if we can find any more editorial errors, but first, a few quick words from these sponsors.

[Ad break]

Andrew: So I want to talk a little more about the movie adaptation. Is it just me, or does this whole push and pull of the bead – I was talking about this a little bit earlier – come off as hokey? The same thing happens in the book, and I think it works in the book, but when you’re watching the push and pull of the bead in the movie, it’s like [gasps] “It’s going that way. [gasps] It’s going this way. Which way is it going to go?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s just a little corny to me. I don’t like it. And I feel like we also saw this in at least one other Harry Potter movie, maybe even a Fantastic Beasts movie, and it’s just…

Eric: Well, that’s my problem with this. This would be okay even in the movie version if it were the only time we saw it. Instead, it seemed like they do this a lot – good call on Fantastic Beasts too. It seems like there really is just a lot more of what should be Priori Incantatem, which should be this very specific thing that only occurs whenever Harry and Voldemort’s wands meet, becomes the visual language of spellwork to some extent. They overused it.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, even Voldemort and Dumbledore have it in the Department of Mysteries in Order of the Phoenix, which makes no sense.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, and I’m pretty sure that’s… but that’s written differently when you get to that book. It’s really, really cool. There’s elemental control of powers and stuff, and that’s ultimately different than this bead of light explanation. But the movies kind of fell flat in differentiating them.

Andrew: I don’t like that duels work that way in the movies.

Laura: No. Well, it’s wrong. Honestly, this is one of my biggest pet peeves, because I agree with you, Eric; after Goblet of Fire in the movie, it was like they decided, “Oh, every single duel needs to be Priori Incantatem because it looks cool on the screen,” and it’s like, “But it doesn’t make sense.”

Andrew: Who do we blame for that? David Yates, David Heyman, David Barron? Pick a David, any David.

Laura: No, this was Pre-Yates, right?

Andrew: No, but he saw it in Goblet, and then was like, “I want more of that.” [laughs]

Laura: Oh, no. yeah, I guess we have to blame David Yates again.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: No. Mike Newell.

Laura: I’m just kidding.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: It’s just there’s not a cohesive… I think it was an entire department of people that decided what they could do. I like the idea that the spells look almost liquid. That doesn’t usually… it’s like molten lava flying off of Harry’s beam. But I think it suffers from the fact that we see it repeated later.

Micah: I feel like in the course of the show, we’ve talked about how we just generally don’t like spells in the movies. And we’ve looked even at how spells were created in some of the… not fanfiction, but what the equivalent is for fan-made Harry Potter films, and a lot of them were a lot better than what we saw in the Harry Potter movies.

Eric: It’s just hard to… I mean, how else would you represent somebody is shooting a thing of energy-like substance at somebody else, somebody else is receiving it and repelling it? What does that look like? It looks like exactly what we see in the films. There’s not a lot of ways… you can’t make it invisible, because then you wouldn’t really see anything. Ultimately, I don’t know what I would have done differently in this scene.

Laura: Yeah, I would just not reuse an effect that was intended for a very specific purpose.

Andrew: Yeah. I just want to see the spells fly, visually fly at somebody. Different colors, maybe different forms; one’s a star, one’s an orb, one looks like a… I don’t know, a Sorting Hat. [laughs]

Eric: Again, those symbols that you have to learn to do them in the games. That would be fun.

Andrew: Yeah, sure, sort of like that. That could be interesting. Like fireworks; you know how fireworks, they can do different shapes with fireworks? Like that.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, ultimately, Harry’s parents, their echoes let him know that the echoes will be able to distract Voldemort for, as Eric said, about ten seconds, but just long enough to give Harry a chance to make a mad dash for Cedric’s body and the Portkey. And true to his word, because he’s just a good person at the end of the day, he does take Cedric back to Hogwarts. He has to Accio the cup over to him.

Micah: I mean, Cedric is delaying his departure massively.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Are you saying that Harry should be like, “Cedric, you’re already departed. I gotta get out of here.” [laughs]

Eric: “Cedric, you’re dead weight. Don’t slow me down any more than you already have.”

Andrew: “One of us gotta come out of here alive, and it’s clearly not you.”

Laura: “Don’t stop me now.” Having his Freddie Mercury moment.

[Andrew laughs]

Elizabeth: Cedric’s body could have been his Swiss Army Man. Could have been shield.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Laura: That’s amazing. I love that parallel.

Eric: That’s great.

Laura: But Harry is ultimately able to to get away, to travel back to Hogwarts with the Triwizard cup Portkey, but it’s pretty scary because Voldemort and the Death Eaters are right on his heels; I mean, to the point where Harry can see Voldemort’s glowing red eyes approaching him as he catches the Portkey.

Micah: One question I did want to ask before we wrap up was the Death Eaters, right? Voldemort tells them to stand down throughout this whole process, but I’m curious what would have happened if they did try and intervene. Do we feel like Priori Incantatem would have protected both Harry and Voldemort from any outside spells?

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Eric: I like the idea of it being basically like the bubble that eventually surrounds Hogwarts, where you try and touch it and anything that penetrates it goes to ash. I’d like to believe it’s something like that, because there’s so much powerful next-level magic going on that the outsiders really can’t… nor would they, because if they stepped in and messed it up, they know Voldemort is coming after them and is going to blame them.

Andrew: Just them floating, too, I think suspends them in time as well, so if the Death Eaters did try to attack them, they wouldn’t be able to.

Eric: It’s so funny because gravity may not seem to apply to Harry and Voldemort, but it does apply to the echoes coming out of the wand. Bertha Jorkins comes out of the wand and then hits the ground and she has to pick herself up.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: All the people that come out of Voldemort’s wand hit the ground and have to brush themselves off. [laughs] Like, what’s going on? Gravity is weird right now, but I like how weird it is. I like how it’s not explained.

Laura: Yeah. The only other thing I would add about why the Death Eaters might not intervene: I think a big part of it is that they’re cowards. Voldemort calls them all out for this in the last chapter, saying, “None of you came looking for me. You’re only back because you’re afraid. You felt your Dark Mark burning and you got afraid, so you only returned out of fear. The ones who didn’t return out of fear, they’re at the top of the list, but all y’all are on notice.” He definitely put all of them on notice last chapter, so I think it’s fitting of all of their characters that they would see something that they don’t understand, that they weren’t expecting to happen, and be like, “Ooh, I’m just going to leave this to the boss.”

Andrew: Yeah. By the way, shout-out to HallowWolf, who shared with us the trope called “Beam-o-war,” and it’s what we’ve been talking about and criticizing in the movies after Goblet of Fire. And at TvTropes.org, it lists every single time the Beam-o-war has been used across all media, and there have been a lot of times this has been used. So thank you for sharing this. It’s a very common trope, evidently. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. Well, and to something that HedwigsTheme said on our Discord as well in response to the Death Eaters, is “Heck yeah, I bet half of them,” meaning the Death Eaters, “want Harry to win.” And that’s an interesting point, too; a lot of them wouldn’t choose to be here if their life didn’t depend on it. Ultimately, they try their best to shoot spells at Harry when he does break free, but yeah, that’s a good call too. I think they’d prefer that this matter were just handled and they could go back to living their life before they knew Voldemort was coming back.

Laura: Right. Well, to bring us home, Micah, you put together a fun little game for us about these echoes.

Micah: Yeah, I thought we could have a little bit of a good time here. We know that when the echoes are emitted from Voldemort’s wand, that as they come out – maybe with the exception of Wormtail’s hand – they say very encouraging things to Harry to try and spur him on. But it’s also noted that they say some not so nice things to Voldemort.

Andrew: I love that you caught that. I would have glossed right over that.

Micah: And while we are privy to what is said to Harry, we are not privy to what is said to Voldemort, so I thought we could have a little bit of fun here and come up with some things that each of the characters would say to Voldemort.

Andrew: So Cedric definitely would have said, “WTF, man? I was trying to win a school competition, just like your dumb Tom Riddle ass would have.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: And I think Lily would have said, “You thought you’d seen the last of us, hadn’t you? Think again!” Or, “Harry is a better wizard than you will ever be!”

Andrew: I hope it’s the second one.

Eric: Just verbally dressing him down.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. Proud mama moment. I think that Frank Bryce would have said, “You wizards, get off my lawn!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Good old man voice, Laura.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I’m glad Laura got assigned Frank Bryce.

Eric: “Look at these hedges in the graveyard; they’re so overgrown!”

Laura: [laughs] I’m delighted. I love Frank Bryce. I wish we had gotten more of him, to be honest. He’s an interesting character.

Micah: Yes, he is. And for Bertha, I decided to go with, “Love the no-nose look, Voldy. You can Horcrux me anytime you want.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Elizabeth: And then for James, kind of in a similar vein: “How’s your big plan working for you, snot-nosed toe rag? Oh, wait.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I love that.

Eric: It’s perfect. James Potter the bully returns.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I love Lydia’s comment in the Discord: “You need a pedicure,” from Cedric.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Ouch.

Laura: That’s good.

Andrew: Let’s go get pedis.

Eric: Look at those toes, seriously.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That’s a movie thing, but you know what, why not?

Laura: Hey, you know what? I am here for it. I declare canon.

Andrew: I’m sorry; I don’t have any recollection of Voldemort’s feet, and…

Eric: Oh, it’s totally a thing!

Laura: What? You don’t remember Ralph Fiennes putting his nasty ass foot on Robert Pattinson’s face with his toenails?

Andrew: I guess I looked away.

Laura: It’s horrible.

Eric: That’s a moment… okay, we were just kind of poo-pooing on the whole movie adaptation of the Beam-o-war. I’m going to go ahead and say that the toes thing is creepy and delightful, because in the book, Voldemort calls all the Death Eaters and they have to kiss the hem of his robe. What do you think is down there? His feet! And so making his feet hideous actually adds to the overall scene and how weird and sad it is for the Death Eaters.


Odds & Ends


Laura: Well, let’s go through a couple of odds and ends before we get into MVP of the week. Just wanted to call out that Peter is the one to give Harry his wand back so he can duel Voldemort, but he gives Harry his wand without making eye contact with him, and I don’t think Peter makes eye contact with Harry at all during this sequence in the graveyard, which I think is telling. I think he feels a little bit guilty; not enough to change the way that he would do anything, but I think that he can’t stand to look into the face of the child of his best friends that he had murdered.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good call-out. Great observation.

Laura: As he should be. Oh, Andrew, HedwigsTheme in the Discord shared a picture of what we’re talking about.

Andrew: Oh, I didn’t need to see that. I did not need to see that.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Why would you show that to me?

Eric: Yes, if we had to see it, Andrew, you had to see it.

Andrew: That is… yeah, okay. No thanks. Ruining my weekend.

Laura: [laughs] And one other one that we have is Voldemort, when he asks Harry earlier in the chapter if he knows how to duel, Harry recalls that the only thing he ever learned how to do in the Dueling Club two years ago was Expelliarmus, which, while it feels pointless to Harry in this moment, ends up becoming Harry’s signature move, and ultimately is what he uses to defeat Voldemort in Deathly Hallows.

Eric: Harry gets all the wrong lessons from this duel.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Escaping really goes to his head. He’s like, “Oh, if it worked once, it’ll work every…” No, Harry, you barely escaped with your life; try a better spell! But it works.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, it’s time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And I understand this is abstract, but I’m going to give mine to the echoes, just for collectively giving Harry guidance and inspiration.

Eric: I agree; they’re cool. We never see them again. They’re cool. Specifically James for telling Harry about the Portkey; that’s my MVP of this week. It’s information otherwise he wouldn’t have, and that’s pretty cool.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Voldemort’s ignorance/hubris.

Laura: I never do this, and we almost never do this on this show, but I’m going to have to give it to Harry.

Andrew: Whoa.

Laura: Listen, he wins this duel with Voldemort. He does the right thing and takes Cedric’s body back. He still wins the Triwizard Tournament. He doesn’t care about that, but still…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I mean, Harry has got it going on for a 14-year-old carrying the wizarding world on his shoulders.

Eric: Well, that’s true.

Elizabeth: And then I’m going to throw Wormtail a bone and give it to him, because he didn’t think to do away with the Portkey, thankfully.

[Laura laughs]

Elizabeth: Got a way back.

Eric: Yep, that’s good.

Andrew: Great point, yeah. Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or by using our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, we’ll discuss Chapter 35 of Goblet of Fire, “Veritaserum.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for everybody’s favorite Harry Potter trivia game, Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Yes, the last Quizzitch question was: What does the shadow of James Potter tell Harry he must do? The answer that I was looking for was “Get to the Portkey,” in an Arnold Schwarzenegger voice.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Last week’s winners were A Random Ravenclaw; Cheers to my cat, who, as Dumbledore says, has gone on to the next great adventure… aww. Dueling phoenix feathers and such foreshadowing as you will not believe, my dearest gentle reader; Dumble memories dash; Dumbledore’s giddy little giggle as he thinks about how much he complicates Harry’s life; Edward Cullen RIP; Elizabeth K.; Hufflepuffie Buddie; KennahDawnDishSoap; Peter’s missing finger is off somewhere picking Voldemort’s missing nose…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Nice.

Eric: … I love that one. Portkey Express to Hogwarts; Snitch Please; Unnamed Death Eater #3; Vengeful Voldemort’s Vexed Victim Vowing Violent Vindication; WeaselBee; and Yer a Horcrux, Harry.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Now it’s time for next week’s Quizzitch question: Which three individuals appear in Mad-Eye Fakey’s Foe Glass when he takes Harry up there to kill him?

Micah: I know. Going to fill out the answer right now.

Eric: Well, Micah, yes, you should submit. You should submit using the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. Or if you’re on the website – maybe reading one of our nice transcripts – click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.

Andrew: We also encourage you to head over to YouTube and search for MuggleCast, or go to YouTube.com/@MuggleCast. We are now releasing full video episodes over on YouTube, so if you’re into video podcasts, we hope you enjoy that, and we also hope to discover new listeners that way as well. And speaking of listeners, the show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We don’t have a Ministry of Magic running the show; we’re just everyday Muggles putting together this podcast, flying by the seat of our pants like Voldemort executing his latest half-baked idea. But that does mean that we need support from listeners like you, so you can help us out in a couple of different ways. If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free, early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And there’s also our Patreon – Elizabeth supports us on Patreon – Patreon.com/MuggleCast. One of the benefits is you get to co-host MuggleCast one day, just like Elizabeth did today, and you get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, our planning docs, a new physical gift every year – like this year’s T-shirt – and a video message from one of the four of us. So please check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And there are seven-day free trials, as well as annual subscriptions to help you save a little bit of money as well. Last but not least, if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell your friends about the show, and also help us spread the word by leaving a review in your favorite podcast app. Elizabeth, thanks for coming on again today. It’s been great having you on.

Elizabeth: Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. It’s been a long time coming. It was so nice to talk to you all virtually face-to-face; I’m so used to being in the Discord, which is one of the Patreon benefits, but real fun to get to put some ideas into the show.

Andrew: And we saw you researching in real time, it seems like, too, so we appreciate that.

Elizabeth: A little bit.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It was great meeting you in Portland as well.

Elizabeth: Yeah, same.

Andrew: Well, thanks, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Elizabeth: And I’m Elizabeth.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #666

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #666, Potter Panic! Revisiting the HP vs. Christianity Controversies


Show Intro


[Heavy metal remix of show music, featuring Iron Maiden’s “The Number of the Beast” plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, in honor of us hitting our 666th episode, we’re setting Book 4 down for just a week and picking up on real world controversy that was happening right as Goblet of Fire was published in July of 2000, and at issue was whether the series, which was quickly gaining national publicity in the US, was instructing young readers to take up witchcraft, join the devil, and abandon God. We really wanted to do something unique for Episode 666; we’ll never hit this unfortunate number again, so we’ll look back at a key point in Harry Potter history.

Micah: And it’s worth saying we did invite Satan to join us tonight, but he was busy.

Andrew: [laughs] He was busy. I won’t ask you what he was busy with; we’ll just move forward. But before we get into today’s discussion, we do have some exciting news for those of you who love video podcasts: We are now releasing full video episodes on YouTube, so everybody look alive, look alive. And actually, we started this with last week’s episode. So you can visit YouTube.com/@MuggleCast, or just search for MuggleCast on YouTube to find our channel. Please make sure you are subscribed. Check out the videos, give them a like, please comment. We’ll be keeping an eye on the comments there as well. But no matter where you like to Accio MuggleCast, make sure you’re following the show for free and leave us a review in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.


Main Discussion: The controversy of Harry Potter and Christianity


Andrew: So Eric, you led the planning of today’s discussion, right?

Eric: It’s a big one, and in fact, I’m thinking of making available via the show notes the PDF document that compiles over 40 separate primary sources from basically contemporary newspaper clippings at the time, mostly in 1999 and 2000, with some stretching as late as 2007 when we get to some controversy that we’ve actually managed to cover on the show before. But it was a massive task made possible by Newspapers.com, which has digitized all these… I felt like in those movies when an investigative journalist has to go to the library and they do those machines that go through literally old papers.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s just absolutely wild, but I knew for this episode it would be good to hear just what was going on back when this issue was in its prime. And let’s set the scene: As Andrew already mentioned, by the year 2000 Pottermania was in full force, and the first three books of author J.K. Rowling’s series about a boy wizard had finally broken through in the United States, in advance of the series’ fourth written installment. While largely taking the country by storm, the Potter “contagion” and subject matter of the books raised alarm bells across Christian America, and concerned parents, youth leaders, and journalists all began to ask, “Just what are our children reading?” It’s for these concerns that parents had that Harry Potter began to get banned from schools, at one point in the late ’90s reaching number three on the New York Times “Most banned books” list; it would later top that list. Major Christian publications such as Christianity Today, however, actually took a closer look at the series and declared it harmless or even good for children to read. While it does seem, looking back, that a consensus was largely reached by parents, journalists, and the public at large, who’d actually read the books, the issue of whether Harry Potter was safe for children extended through the entire publication history of the seven books, and most notably in the later years – we mentioned this before – but Georgia parent Laura Mallory fought and lost six separate court cases attempting to have the Potter books banned from the school on religious grounds. So we’re going to walk through a sort of timeline of events. We’ve got quotes, we’ve got references, we have our memories on the subject, but first I want to ask what were our own experiences with this controversy? Did it ever come to us? And for this, I specifically want to start with Laura, because you were living in Malloryville. You grew up, what, 30 minutes from where she was?

Laura: Yep. Yeah, and to be honest with you, for the most part this rhetoric wasn’t something that was super prevalent in my community. I will say it was prevalent amongst people who had a certain level of devoutness, [laughs] but I would argue at that point that it had probably less to do with the source material and more to do with a loud minority making a lot of noise and getting some other voices on board. But in general, Potter was super popular with kids. Most teachers and parents were supportive and were just happy to see kids reading. I will say, though, that I did have a couple of friends who came from some of those aforementioned very, very devout backgrounds, and Harry Potter was not permitted in their house or anywhere in their lives. But the thing that I always thought was funny was they were usually totally fine with things like Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia, but we’ll get into, I think, the reasons why those stories were considered okay for people who felt this way – and why Harry Potter wasn’t – a little bit later in the episode.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I figured if anyone was really up in front of this controversy, it would be you, because the Atlanta Constitution is cited many times. I was finding a lot of articles from Georgia from the ’90s, basically, and just assumed that it would maybe be a more oppressive environment for a budding Harry Potter fan at the time.

Laura: I mean, it was oppressive insofar as it was definitely not cool to work on a website or be on a podcast back then.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: It wasn’t cool in the Northeast either.

Laura: Yeah, but I mean, honestly, most people either liked Harry Potter or didn’t care about it. I really think that cases like these – not to downplay it because it is significant, and it’s also not to say that Laura Mallory was a party of one; she definitely wasn’t – but I think that this is definitely a case where you had a very vocal minority of people trying to exercise some kind of control, and Harry Potter was low-hanging fruit for that, I think.

Andrew: Yes. Yeah, it was so popular at the time; that’s one reason why they were picking on Harry Potter more than Lord of the Rings or Chronicles of Narnia. But Laura, those kids who weren’t allowed to read Harry Potter – were they secretly reading it without their parents knowing?

Laura: Well, one friend was. The other wasn’t because she genuinely thought she would go to hell, which was very sad.

Andrew: Aw, yeah.

Eric: No, that was honestly the line at the time; it’s in print all over the place too. And I do want to say before we get to mine and Micah’s experiences – oh, and Andrew’s, too, because you have a little story to tell – this episode is not meant to actually make fun of anyone who was critical of the Harry Potter books, believe it or not. The whole purpose of this really just looks at the reasons that were stated for it and trying to see if there’s merit to it or just what the arguments were. Me, for example – and sorry to sorry to skip you, Andrew, real quick – but I wasn’t in this controversy at all. No teachers come under fire in my school for this. I was 12 at the time; I just cared about Pokémon cards. This missed me. This controversy in the ’90s missed me. It wasn’t until we started doing MuggleCast and the Laura Mallory thing came about 2006/2007 that I was even aware this was an argument. But reading back and looking at these written arguments for why people thought it, it gets serious. It’s not all laughs and buffoonery; these are parents who are really deeply concerned that their children are reading something that will either flat-out indoctrinate them or lead down a slippery slope.

Andrew: And Micah, similar for you. You only found out about it, really, thanks to MuggleNet, right?

Micah: Yeah, I was really only made aware of the controversy by working on the site and doing the podcast. For me, I got a lot more questions about reading a “children’s” book than anything to do with the religious aspect of it. But I was just going to say, I do think it’s important, because we do have a lot of new listeners to this show; we do have a lot of people who are finding Harry Potter in these last, let’s say, five to ten years who maybe weren’t even aware that this controversy existed back in the ’90s. And of course, there is really no successful series that doesn’t have a bit of controversy to it. Today, it has a much different type of controversy surrounding it than it did back in the ’90s. But this is certainly something that was part of the narrative throughout the course of all seven books.

Andrew: It was. So for me, I mentioned I was living in the Northeast; I was in southern New Jersey. And while the books weren’t banned, and there wasn’t an effort to ban them in my school or my state, my fifth grade teacher actually did try to forbid us from reading the books in her class, and I think it was simply because of how popular they were, and for whatever reason the teacher thought they weren’t worth reading. And my mom actually called my fifth grade teacher – Mrs. Degnan, I haven’t forgotten – and said, “Let them read the book!” So plus one for my mom for doing that. But the funniest thing about all of this is that my fifth grade teacher didn’t want us reading the book, but my fourth grade teacher introduced us to the Harry Potter books. My fourth grade teacher, Mrs. Wilson, read Sorcerer’s Stone to us in class! So she introduces it to us, and then next year, the teacher… Mrs. Degnan was the Umbridge of Haines Elementary.

Eric: We find ourselves locked in a battle not between these old players, the devil and God, but the fourth grade teachers versus the fifth grade teachers…

Andrew: [laughs] Good versus evil.

Eric: … in their curriculum, differences of opinion. This is a tale as old as time. This war will never be won.

Andrew: [laughs] So yeah, I was lucky to avoid the controversy. But down in the south, religion is deeply rooted in everyday society, and…

Eric: Well, I’m glad you mentioned that because…

Laura: That’s global.

Eric: No, it is.

Laura: That’s global for sure.

Eric: There’s an article… okay, one of the early defenders of Harry Potter was Judy Blume, and in a New York Times opinion piece on December 6, 1999, that article that quoted her also stated that there were already book bannings, actual bannings, in Minnesota, Michigan, New York, California – I’ve yet to name a southern state – and South Carolina.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: So this was not just south. This was not just South America… South North America… you know what I was saying.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: These books were being banned in non-“Bible Belt” states as well.

Andrew: That’s all fair. Maybe I should add that… I was saying when I go to the south, at least, I just see religion more deeply rooted in everyday life than I do in New Jersey, specifically.

Eric: There’s a reason it’s called the Bible Belt. However, I did notice, Andrew, you said you were from South Jersey.

Andrew: Yes, well… [laughs]

Eric: South.

Andrew: We do call it South Jersey, but not because it’s down near Georgia or something. It’s just the southern half of the state.

Micah: And you were telling us earlier, you make good use of Bibles when you podcast from hotel rooms.

Laura: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Andrew: I do, I do. Well, look, sometimes you need to elevate the mic when you’re recording from a hotel room – which I probably will be next week – and if there is a Bible in the hotel room, I’m going to use it to prop up the microphone. I’m not burning it or anything; I’m just elevating the microphone so you could hear me loud and clear.

Laura: You’re like, “Jesus, hold my mic.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, man. You use the book to prop up your microphone, but I’m actually using my microphone box to prop up the next book I brought with me to the shore. It’s Fourth Wing.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: That’s a completely unrelated thing, but I have a book on my mic. I’m like, “That’s interesting.” So let’s just cover real quickly… we are going to get into specifically what was said, but a lot of discourse is also around the reasons for the controversy. Why Harry Potter? And one thing I do want to point out very early on in this discussion is that the Harry Potter and Christianity debate could fit in the category of a moral panic, where sensationalist journalism – hello, the J word – amplifies a question or a problem beyond its initial stature, and it galvanizes citizens into taking a side. And usually, or historically, this has been done with threats that the safety of them or their children are at stake if they don’t, and just one example of a moral panic would be the so-called Satanic Panic from the early 1980s, where accusations of the existence of a child-abusing cult of parents and teachers were said to be using Satanic rituals and conducting unholy worship en masse, endangering and actively harming the nation’s children. This kicked off right around 1983 or so, and in 1994 – 11 years later – the New York Times had a post that found over 12,000 accusations had been investigated, and there was no substantiated facts that it had occurred. In the meantime, parents and teachers that were accused got life sentences and all sorts of stuff happened. Lives were ruined, and it’s important to show the implication of what the media can do to a problem. As far as I know, no one went to jail for writing Harry Potter – yet – and so I think that this was relatively safer than the Satanic Panic, but the sensationalist journalism, the moral panic thing is a very real human psychological… it’s in our history. It’s in our history, and I think this is the closest Potter came to it.

Andrew: Yeah, I was going to say, I think that it’s… you’re describing exactly what went on with Harry Potter. People were afraid that kids were going to read these books and learn these spells, and then use them out in the real world or become wizards.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: And of course, none of this ever happened! As much as we maybe wanted to become a wizard. We tried!

Laura: And there’s always something, right? Eric, you brought up Pokémon earlier. There were similar concerns about Pokémon. I don’t know that they were as vocal as the Harry Potter ones became, but there were also… the Satanic Panic really hit Dungeons & Dragons hard in the ’80s as well, and you see that depicted, actually…

Eric: Stranger Things.

Laura: … in Stranger Things, right? So it’s always something. It’s something the young kids are into that certain demographics don’t understand. Because they don’t understand it, it must be bad.

Micah: Right, I was going to say it challenges the norm in a way, and once it does that, and can potentially make people uncomfortable, then they start to come up with all these different ideas about why it’s bad.

Eric: So why Harry Potter? Why do we think, and what are our thoughts there?

Andrew: Well, I think the rise of the Internet was a factor. Harry Potter was coming up at the same time that the Internet was, and the idea of someone trying to get a popular children’s book banned was a very intriguing headline on the Internet where Harry Potter was already so hot, and this was before the social media algorithms that we know and hate today. But thanks to the Internet, we were all checking the news websites. We would go to MuggleNet every day to keep up on the news. Adults would check in on news websites from New York Times, or whoever else, and these headlines were attractive. They probably got clicks. And I think what’s really interesting to me about the Harry Potter backlash and Laura Mallory is that if it weren’t for the Internet, nobody outside of Georgia would have heard about Laura Mallory.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: But she became the figurehead for the Harry Potter panic thanks to the Internet.

Eric: Well, the majority… that is all true in 2005/2006, but in the ’90s, this was being written about on just local papers and groups like Christianity Today; publications had to address the concerns that they were getting from opinions to the editor and letters to the editor and the opinion section of local papers. So people… there was very much a grassroots movement of concerned parents that you hear about doing everything they could in print media to try and raise alarm bells, and then you’re right, by the end of it, they actually had the means to do so via the Internet. I also think that – I think, Laura, you touched on this too – Harry Potter was popular, and anytime something is popular… my dad actually tried to ban Pokémon from me. He wouldn’t let me watch it after school. He said, “Your grades are suffering. You come home, watch Pokémon the animated series. You should be doing your homework.”

Micah: Well, that sounds like because you weren’t doing your homework, not because there’s something wrong with Pokémon.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, okay, maybe it wasn’t a perfect comparison, but anything popular is subject to scrutiny.

Andrew: It was a distraction. Yeah, it was an addicting distraction. I think of Tamagotchis; they were banned in schools.

Eric: That’s right!

Andrew: Pokémon cards were banned in my school as well; they didn’t want these distractions in school. I think maybe getting back to my fifth grade teacher, she saw Harry Potter as a distraction.

Micah: Right. Just to add on, too, because I do agree with what Andrew was saying earlier about the rise of the Internet and the fact that if I’m somebody living in New York, I could go onto the Atlanta Journal Constitution‘s website and read about Laura Mallory. In fact, I could go onto MuggleNet and read about Laura Mallory. We actually helped to perpetuate some of the celebrity factor of people like her…

Andrew: [gasps] Darn it.

Eric: We made her star rise.

Micah: … who were so adamant against the Harry Potter series.

Eric: This controversy is pre-MuggleNet, though. It is.

Micah: It is, but we didn’t maybe do as much as we could have to fan the flames. Or to douse the flames, I should say.

Eric: So I want to know why… okay, apart from the fact that it was popular and kids who were supposed to be on their video game systems were instead picking up books, which turned a lot of heads…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … and one of the earliest pro-Harry Potter statements is, “Isn’t that a good thing, that kids are reading again?” But not when it’s a book about witchcraft and wizardry. And here’s the thing… okay, did J.K. Rowling make it easy? It says sorcery. In fact, some of the titles in foreign languages… it’s right in the title, okay? So that’s a little concerning. But here’s two other reasons why Harry Potter would be targeted: This is a quote from Religion in the News, Spring 2002’s Volume 5, by Richard Peace. He says, “A lot had to do with the authors themselves.” This is in terms of why J.K. Rowling is targeted, whereas C.S. Lewis and JRR Tolkien get a pass. This was Laura’s question earlier.

“A lot had to do with the authors themselves. [re: Paulson] ‘Tolkien was a devout convert to Catholicism whose religion informed his writing, while Rowling, a member of the Church of Scotland, has not emphasized her religion as a central part of her biography. Tolkien was also a friend and close associate of C.S. Lewis, the well-known Christian writer.’ Indeed, Lewis has assumed the role of patron saint in the evangelical world for the staunch defense of historic Christianity that he expressed in a series of books and articles on Christian apologetics.”

Eric: I think they were called The Screwtape Letters. I could be wrong on that, but I think that’s it. And the other thing, let’s be honest, why do Lewis and Tolkien get to play around with witches and wizards, but Rowling can’t? She’s also a woman. And the interesting thing that Richard Peace points out is that “the word on the fundamentalist street in 2002 was that Rowling herself was a witch of sorts.” So here we get a little old school witch-hunting, I guess.

“Writing in Crossroads and Worthy News in August 2000, Berit Kjos claimed that Rowling had grown up ‘loving the occult.’ Her childhood friend Vikki Potter…”

Yes, that Potter.

“We used to dress up and play witches all the time. My brother would dress up as a wizard. Joanne was always reading to us… we would make secret potions for her. She would always send us off to get twigs for the potions.”

So not only is she a woman, and women… okay, is this childhood play?

Micah: [laughs] So because you had an imagination, you’re a witch.

Andrew: Right, right, and wanted to dress up.

Eric: That’s what this… and also because you’re a woman, because women are witches, they all are in league with the devil, right?

Andrew: And the potion made her a great writer, ooooh!

Eric: Ooh! Wait, are you saying potions work?

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, yes, I am saying potions work.

Eric: Oh, we’re going to talk about that. So before we continue the discussion, and especially focus real quickly on “Why Christians?”, let’s hear a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: And now we’re going to ask the question: Why Christians specifically having trouble with Harry Potter? And actually, the answer to this is summed up very easily, I think, and succinctly but intelligently, by Michael Maudlin in a September 2000 Christianity Today article titled “Virtue on a Broomstick.”

Andrew: He said,

“These Christian protesters are newsworthy only because in our culture there is so little debate about what is good for our kids. Christians often serve as the cultural superego. In a morally chaotic world, it has become our task to voice objections to moral deviance, and it is the mainstream culture’s job to tell us why we are ‘uptight,’ ‘ridiculous,’ and/or ‘bigoted.’ Along comes a popular children series about witchcraft and journalists scurry to their Rolodexes, looking under ‘F’ for ‘frothy fundamentalists’ to get a good quote. Thus when a relatively small number of Christian parents ask that their kids’ schools not read Harry Potter, we read about it in all the major newspapers.”

Eric: Boom, media sensationalism.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: You can always find somebody complaining about something, and when it’s something as big as Harry Potter, it grabs eyeballs, referring to these journalists hitting up their Rolodexes. One day on the Today Show: “Is one glass of wine actually bad for you daily? More in ten minutes,” and then the next day, it’s like, “Oh, actually, wine is great for you.” It’s just all these headlines trying to capture your attention and make you think that you shouldn’t be consuming whatever you’re having.

Eric: For the MuggleCast episode explaining to our young listeners what a Rolodex is, sorry, it’s not this one.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But regarding the quote about Christians being the superego, I do think that they are kind of, in that way, put into that box, and I think there’s a fair point to be made that in a essentially godless world, people who were raised but no longer practice still care about what Godful people are thinking and saying, and so maybe for that reason, this blew up as well.

Laura: Yeah, perhaps. I think it’s also important to note… I mean, we of course all have a particular lens just based on our geography and what we grew up around and the media we were exposed to, but religious concerns about Harry Potter didn’t just come from those in the Christian faith. It’s not as heavily reported on, but certainly there are other religious backgrounds that raised their own concerns and objections; they just didn’t get this level of coverage.

Andrew: That’s an important point to bring up.

Eric: Okay, so now we’re going to talk about what were the actual arguments that were being said, and this is… we’re going to have a series of more quotes, but hopefully you’re as hooked as I am on this discussion. I think the big argument I came across with the most while researching is that because Harry Potter is about a wizard, a boy wizard, it’s bad because it’s going to make children want to do witchcraft and the occult, and that is against God. It could lead to demonic issues, and/or the books will make children vulnerable by downplaying the real world danger of sorcery itself. Here’s a quote from Jackie Komschlies in “The Perils of Harry Potter,” Christianity Today, 10/23/2000. She argues that reading the books about wizardry will leave a positive impression on kids that’s synonymous with writing a book about drinking poison and making it sound cool. She says,

“Regardless of how magic is portrayed in the series, we need to remember that witchcraft in real life can and does lead to death – the forever and ever kind.”

Laura: Ah, so she thinks it’s propaganda.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: But I think if you actually end up reading these books, and maybe kids don’t really think as deeply or read between the lines – which I think is something we’re experiencing here on MuggleCast; we’re getting different meanings out of the books and what happens than we were kids – but I think if you actually read the books, especially as an adult, you realize there’s consequences for creating potions, spells, using spells inappropriately. It’s not like all this stuff is perfect and works out in your favor; there’s always consequences to what you do. And I mean, that’s what happens in every story. There’s consequences to your actions, not all good.

Micah: I’m curious about the dangers of real world sorcery.

Andrew: Well, that comes back to people thinking magic actually is real; sorcery is real.

Eric: Right. Let’s keep reading from our sources.

Andrew: So John Andrew Murray of Teachers in Focus wrote,

“By dissociating magic and supernatural evil, it becomes possible to portray occult practices as ‘good’ and ‘healthy,’ contrary to the scriptural declaration that such practices are ‘detestable to the Lord.’ This, in turn, opens the door for kids to become fascinated with the supernatural while tragically failing to seek or recognize the one true source of supernatural good – namely God.”

Eric: I don’t have an issue with this argument at all. I think that honestly, sorcery is portrayed as good, or at least, not all morally wrong in Harry Potter. Well, there’s a quote from Phillip Scott that delves into this further. Laura, you want to take it?

Andrew: Okay, but let me just say quick, I mean, magic is also used in bad ways in the Harry Potter books with enemies.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And Star Wars and other such.

Laura: I mean, and there’s magic in the Bible. That’s always kind of the issue that I take with this argument, is I’m like, “Wait a second, it’s okay there, but it’s not okay here? Okay.”

Eric: So when Jesus waves his wand and turns water into wine…?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s okay.

Laura: Well, he didn’t have a wand; that’s why it was okay.

Eric: Yeah. Well, there’s that.

Micah: When Moses parted the Red Sea with his staff.

Eric: There you go. It’s like Lucius Malfoy’s staff; it’s got his wand in it.

Laura: But let me go ahead and share this quote from Father Phillip Scott. So he was quoted in an article titled “Harry Potter, Agent of Conversion” by Toni Collins in the Catholic Culture in Envoy magazine in 2001. He says,

“It’s not pleasant to contemplate, but there really are people out there who practice witchcraft, who cast spells and perform rituals, and who see results. J.K. Rowling writes as if their powers can be channeled into good, and that is the great danger of her books. Rituals and spells and brews are used by witches in the real world, and they work because of the power of evil spirits. As such, they can never lead to good. Portraying these innately evil practices as if they can be harnessed for good is a dangerous lie.”

Eric: To this I’ll say whenever you do something like tarot, those things are based on practices that involve tapping into energies, and so the fundamental practice of Wicca as a religion and other such similar pagan religions or rituals are all exactly the kind of rituals that Christians are against or that the Bible is against and says is literally not of God. So the cause for alarm here, I think, can be completely understood in that “There’s no good sorcery” is what these people are saying.

Laura: Well, I think about it this way – and obviously, I disagree with the reasoning here – but if you truly believed that magic was a real thing and was bad, it makes complete sense that you might buy into this kind of argument. I can say that I think it’s unfounded and wrong and lacking in any kind of substantive logic, but I can’t argue with the way someone feels. If somebody gets the heebie jeebies about anything that they would consider to be dark magic or dark sorcery, there’s nothing that I can say to that person to not make them feel that way. So I disagree with it, but it makes sense. And I will say, I do think that oftentimes in cases like this, the loudest and most prevalent voices who are leading the movement are more on a power trip than they are a crusade to prove some kind of moral point. Maybe it starts out that way, but I feel like oftentimes it becomes more about their power and influence and perception. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, you get addicted to all the attention, I think, and you can monetize it.

Eric: Right. And I don’t know what to say about if these people are attention-seeking, but leaders of their church, Baptist activist Jon Watkins said,

“Satan is up to his old tricks again and the main focus is the children of the world. The whole purpose of these books is to desensitize readers and introduce them to the occult.”

Sounds kind of alarmist. Terry Horn, a pastor of the Dream Center Church in southwest Washington, DC, he said,

“This stuff is as dangerous as drugs and alcohol in a kid’s life – it’s habit forming and very, very dangerous, and a lot of folks don’t see it.”

And Reverend Gene Hilton of the Spirit of Prophecy Ministries in Stuart, Florida, said,

“Let’s just say I was curious about the pornography scene and started doing research by reading smut. Even if I’m just looking, there’s something there that could happen, demonically, to make me want to go deeper.”

So the whole slippery slope argument of the occult, combined with the fact that sorcery is being branded about as good, you can actually see where at least there’s some idea of concern that is legitimate coming from here. But I would question, really, how many of these people read the books?

Micah: I want to know what Gene’s reading.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: I don’t remember an adult scene.

Laura: Hey, I will say, for those of us who were into fanfiction, the pipeline…

Micah: Oh, maybe that’s what Gene came across.

Andrew: Ohh.

Laura: Yeah, the pipeline from Harry Potter to Harry Potter smut fanfiction is… [laughs]

Eric: This may be my error in quoting it, but no, he’s trying to… it’s like drugs and alcohol. When you say, “Reading Harry Potter is like drugs and alcohol.”

Laura: Right.

Eric: “Reading Harry Potter is like pornography, reading Harry Potter is…”

Andrew: Ohh.

Eric: That’s what they’re saying.

Laura: It’s like a vice, yeah.

Micah: I mean, can we really argue against that? We’ve been doing it for 19 years.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Well, right! There are some points here where we’ll think, “Yeah, that’s right.” There’s one more thing I wanted to draw attention to before we move on to the other big thing, but Micah, do you want to take this quote here real quick?

Micah: Yeah, this was in addition to the quote that Laura read earlier. It says,

“Rowling further confuses the issue by portraying witchcraft not as a moral issue, but as an issue of heredity. In Rowling’s world, the ability to practice witchcraft is inherited. But in reality, you don’t need to possess a particular bloodline in order to make witchcraft work. All you have to do is tap into evil spirits, turn over your will, and leave Jesus Christ for the world of the occult.”

Eric: So I actually think this is also an interesting point in that kids who may be unsuspecting or like, “Well, I wasn’t born into a wizarding family; I can’t be a wizard,” but in the real world, pretty much anybody can choose to engage with evil spirits. Just ask the Milton Bradley company, who’ve been selling the Ouija boards for ages.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But yeah, so it’s kind of… immediately, even at this stage of the discussion, I’m like, “This is more complicated than I thought.” I thought that there wouldn’t be this variety of issues. And here’s the funny thing: Just like a spectrum exists for pretty much everything in the world, there’s also people saying that the Harry Potter books aren’t religious enough, so here’s this section of the discussion. December 1999, Christianity Today – a really good publication, it turns out; great articles – published an article from “Focus in the Family” saying,

“The spiritual fault of Harry Potter is not so much that Rowling is playing to dark supernatural powers, but that she doesn’t acknowledge any supernatural powers at all. These stories are not fueled by witchcraft, but by secularism.”

And so if you think about it, there is actually no God or the devil as a character in Harry Potter, and that could lead some interpretation, including incorrect interpretations, of what role God or the devil would play in the books. And if you want to say it’s fiction, okay, to that I posit, well, if they’re religious, these people believe that there’s God and devil in reality. And so to not feature God or the devil or explain to children what those characters’ roles are in the book is actually to, again, have a slippery slope. Does that make sense?

Micah: I would disagree with that, though, because I do feel like you have a God-like character in Dumbledore, and you have a devil-like character in Voldemort, and you have a Jesus-like character in Harry, and we see him resurrected in King’s Cross and come back to life to finish the Battle of Hogwarts. So there’s definitely some undertones here that were either these comments were made prior to Deathly Hallows and some of the other books being released, or these things were conveniently ignored when these people were making these arguments.

Eric: That’s an interesting point, both that it was early; some of these were… not all the books were out, so Harry was not as much a Christ figure. But I think it’s worth saying that there were some Christians defending the books, including a woman named Connie Neal, who I’m going to shout out a bunch, but she had an early book – I think it’s 2001 – called What’s a Christian to do with Harry Potter? And she was actually using the Harry Potter books to teach her children about religion and Christianity. And there are certain symbols that she took from the books, like Harry’s scar, for instance; she likened it to Jesus’s crucifixion scars. The sacrificial death of his mother; the death of Christ for our sins. So there was actually enough, even in the earliest books, to really actually latch onto and say this could be good for teaching religion. So Micah, your point is correct, for sure.

Andrew: And I just hate his premise, though, still, that… I don’t like the premise that we have to include religion in the books. I mean, isn’t that to say every book needs to include religion to some extent, or else my kids aren’t allowed to read it?

Eric: Well, C.S. Lewis did because Aslan…

Andrew: I’m not just talking about fantasy, though. I’m just talking about… where do you draw the line, then? Why does Harry Potter have to…? I guess it comes back to it being so popular that they’re looking to get some lessons out of, teach their kids religious lessons…

Eric: Well, and about sorcery, right?

Laura: Yeah, but they observe all the Judeo-Christian holidays from Book 1, so it feels like a lot of selective reading is happening here. But Eric, I appreciate the quote that you just shared, but I also appreciate an earlier point that you mentioned about this really being a spectrum, just like everything else in life. And to that point, Nicole in our Discord shared, “I would consider myself a devout Catholic, and I have introduced the books to my step-kids. I didn’t realize their mother became a born-again Christian, and she is totally against the books and won’t let them read them at her house, so it’s crazy that it varies so much even among Christianity.” So you’re going to find people of all thoughts.

Eric: Yeah. Well, here’s a retraction we had from God’s World Book Club. Micah, do you want to read it real quick?

Micah: A division of the organization that owns World was withdrawing the Harry Potter books from its catalog, and they went on to say that “We reviewed and recommended the Harry Potter books as wholesome, good-versus-evil fantasy in the spirit of Tolkien and Lewis.” The full page announcement said,

“However, the fact that the books are not Christ-centered and further evidence that they are not written from a perspective compatible with Christianity have led us to retract the books. We sincerely apologize for offense given and thank our customers for contributing to the discussion that led to this decision.”

Feel like that’s like a little thing you would hear at the end of a commercial, like a disclaimer. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. Okay, so if this is God’s World Book Club, I understand why they want to take back the book if they don’t think it’s godly enough. [laughs] But to the general masses, this expectation that there needs to be more God and religion in it, or more explicit God, Jesus, and the devil in it, is absurd.

Eric: Well, here you go. You know what Laura Mallory’s official argument was, was that the books actually infringe on freedom of religion by pushing religion, by pushing Wicca specifically, so that’s the opposite argument as the one that God’s World Book Club is making. It’s kind of wild. But we have to take another break right now, and we’re going to get to two more reasons why folks were miffed about Harry Potter after these sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: Okay, this one, I think, might get the most traction with me as far as an argument for banning Harry Potter on religious grounds…

[Andrew gasps]

Eric: … and it’s that the series is intentionally demonic. And I have one primary source from this, and it’s the article we mentioned further, “HP Agent of Conversion” by Toni Collins. Here’s an excerpt. I think this will blow your mind, because it blows mine.

“Rowling then presents a perversion of Catholic theology when a unicorn is killed just before the climax of the first book. ‘The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price,’ writes Rowling on page 258. Drinking blood will keep us alive?”

Andrew: [in a demonic voice] Yes.

Eric: “When I first read this, I wondered if we were about to see a Catholic metaphor that might redeem the entire book. The next phrase kept my hope alive, ‘You have slain something pure and defenseless to save yourself.’ Yes, I thought, we are about to see a Eucharistic analogy, but then my eyes traveled to the next line on the page: ‘You will have but a half life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips.’

I felt as if I’d been punched in the stomach. It isn’t the crime of killing the pure and defenseless unicorn that curses, but the act of drinking its blood. What a horrendous twisting of the biblical promise that drinking the blood of Jesus, who is the purest of the pure, will bring us eternal life. The antithetical notion that a pure creature’s blood will bring us a ‘half life, a cursed life’ is a slap in the face of Catholics.”

Eric: Reading this excerpt, eh, it kind of seems like Rowling was trying to subvert the Eucharistic thing, don’t you think? A little bit?

Laura: No.

Eric: No?

Laura: No. I don’t… this takes place in a fantasy world with an autocratic psycho who wants to get back at a child for banishing him when he was a baby, and he’s going to do anything he can to build himself back up. And unicorns are presented earlier on before that happened as just this pure creature, so I really feel like it’s more rooted in the fantasy world and less to do with trying to subvert religious imagery, especially given how religious we know Rowling is herself.

Andrew: And I was talking about consequences earlier; this is another lesson in consequences. You drink the blood, you’re going to have a cursed life. You’re going to live forever, but you’re going to have a cursed life. This is a book about choices. This is a choice you can make here.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another thing worth mentioning is that last year, Nicolas Flamel celebrated his 665th birthday, and that’s in Book 1. For people who had just read Book 1 in the late ’90s, they would realize that Nicolas Flamel is 666 years old. Same number as our episodes!

[Laura laughs]

Eric: And why? Why, honestly? Nicolas Flamel, it’s not really… that was so long ago; nobody knows exactly when he was born. I looked it up; it said 1330. According to a timeline of Harry Potter, Nicolas Flamel should be 661, not 666, but the idea there is it’s probably closer to when Rowling was actually writing Book 1, and only later was it set in the early ’90s.

Andrew: And speaking of Flamel, there’s a big lesson in Sorcerer’s Stone about living forever. It’s in the title. And I think one of Rowling’s messages was living forever, as a lot of kids might want to do when you’re young – “Oh, living forever sounds amazing” – it’s not all it’s chalked up to be.

Eric: Well, and that’s the interesting thing, because religion is all about eternal life. Religion is all about eternal life in Christ and in God and going to heaven to live forever, versus hell, which is just nothingness. So I think that what people were picking up on is actually the symptom of the beginning of a fantasy world being built which would touch on some of these same similar tenets, but too early for them to really explain the significance of where Rowling was going with it. I think that these arguments which were all happening were too soon, because by Book 7, I don’t think you’d make this argument, even though Laura Mallory did.

Micah: Right, and for me, if I was making the argument that the series is intentionally demonic, I would focus on the fact that Voldemort was resurrected through cult-like means and tethered himself to this world by actively killing other people and attaching parts of his soul to objects of worth. That has never been brought up. And apologies, I didn’t read all 80 pages that you pulled together, Eric…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but in most of what I saw, nothing about Voldemort really is brought up.

Eric: And he’s the supreme evil, so you would think that there would be more comparisons. I do remember that his one quote of – it’s Quirrell, actually – saying, “I realized when I met Voldemort that there is no good and evil, only power and those too weak to seek it.” We all know the Ian Hart performance of it in the movie. But that out of context sounds like a bid to do evil. “Don’t worry, kids, there’s no real evil! It’s only weak fools that don’t want to seek power.” And yeah, okay, completely out of context, that quote is damning, but in context, absolutely not. The bad guy is the one saying that, so it’s not meant to… I think this comes down to parents not trusting their kids to know the difference when a bad guy says something and is advocating for something. That doesn’t mean the book is advocating for it.

Laura: Right. And again, that takes us back to it just really making it seem like a lot of these vocal opponents didn’t actually read the books, or at least read one book in its entirety.

Andrew: And then there was the argument that the series is generally immoral.

Eric: This is my favorite.

Andrew: Okay.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Because can we refute this?

Andrew: Well, we might be… well, you know what? Actually reading this quote, I was like, I feel like this sounds like us on MuggleCast sometimes.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So for example, Harry can lie and cheat and is rewarded for it. The Harry Potter: Agent of Conversion article says,

“Much like some American college football heroes, Harry receives not a lick of punishment precisely because he’s such a great athlete (Book 1’s Remembrall scene). Even the points that Harry and his friends lose for their school house during the course of the first book are handed back to them with bonuses at the end, and enough so that their house wins the coveted school cup. What’s the overall message here? If you’re cute enough, talented enough, strong enough, or clever enough, you don’t have to worry about following the rules in your little corner of the universe. This is hardly teaching the difference between right and wrong.”

Eric: Fair.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, listen, sounds like this person might have some beef with Dumbledore. They could belong on this panel.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, this is a Dumbledore problem, sir.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Look, I like this argument because it’s like, “Forget about trying to prove that the books are evil, and just say they’re immoral because Harry lies and cheats his whole way through all seven books.” [laughs] And I’m like, “Where’s the lie?”

Andrew: Lies, cheats, breaks rules…

Micah: Yeah, but he gets detention. It’s not like he’s not punished at all.

Eric: [laughs] Only the worst teacher gives him detention!

Micah: Not always. I mean, think about it: He’s had to make a couple trips into the Forbidden Forest. He’s done detention with Snape. He’s done detention with Lockhart. He’s done detention with Umbridge. He doesn’t always get off scot-free, but then there’s also instances where he’s able to skate by based on his name. But I don’t know. I don’t fully agree with this; I don’t think he gets a free pass every time.

Andrew: No.

Laura: Also, who cares?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: These parents…

Laura: I’m sorry, but if you’re reading seven books about a character who never puts a toe out of line, that’s going to be really freaking boring. And that’s also not how people are. People are complicated; people do lie and cheat their ways through some things sometimes. [laughs] That’s also part of growing up and learning how to push boundaries and when it’s appropriate to do so. I just… okay, I guess if you want to be mad that a book about a teenager portrayed that teenager acting like a teenager, go off, I guess.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, some people bring up Edmond in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, who betrays his siblings and stuff. But I think ultimately, these characters sin so that they can repent and be forgiven. That’s the whole… you’re supposed to see people make mistakes.

Andrew: You learn from those mistakes.

Micah: Hey, it was some good Turkish Delight. Let’s be real.

Eric: There is no good Turkish Delight.

Micah: There isn’t a person on this panel that wouldn’t have gone for that.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Okay, fun story about that. After I read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as a child…

Micah: You tried it. [laughs]

Laura: … I insisted to my mom, you have to get me some Turkish Delight. This sounds amazing. I want some.

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: She got it for me, and it was awful. [laughs]

Eric: It’s bad. It’s really bad. It’s the greatest trick C.S. Lewis ever pulled, was making us think Turkish Delight could be good. I thought it would… it looked in the movie like funnel cake; I thought it would be fantastic. It is not funnel cake. Apologies to anyone who likes Turkish Delight who’s listening. [laughs] So now that we’ve covered, and also… we’ve covered all of those reasons why parents were complaining, and it’s true, too; even the teachers at Hogwarts “wink and nod at Harry’s lies, and his power grabs.” That’s from Salina, Kansas Journal in 2005. But for these reasons and more, as we said, the Harry Potter books topped the American Library Association’s banned books list in the year 2000, so it really was the most banned book in America. This book that made our lives and changed our lives, and has given us so so much, was the most Banned book.

Andrew: We’re such baddies. We’re such baddies.

Eric: We’re so badass.

Andrew: So were there reasons for all these bans? Was there ever any evidence suggesting that kids actually converted to paganism or participated in witchcraft? Yes! No. An AP article on November 10, 2001 – that is the release of the first Harry Potter movie – I’m going to quote from now:

“Though more than 50 million copies are in print worldwide, there has been no evidence of widespread conversions to paganism or witchcraft. Andy Norfolk of the London-based Pagan Federation said the books have created no serious interest in his movement because they don’t appeal to older people seeking spiritual options who ‘see the Potter books as rather uncool.'”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: See, if I were him, I’d be sad. I’d be like, “Wait, wait, this backfired. I want the books to make the kids interested.”

Micah: But this was 23 years ago, though, Andrew. A lot has changed since then. We have a huge Harry Potter fan community where people dress up as witches and wizards, they go to conventions, they cast spells at each other…

Andrew: But did they convert to paganism or witchcraft?

Micah: Well, maybe not paganism, but you could argue witchcraft. I’m just saying.

Andrew: The stuff Harry Potter adults are whipping up these days are cool-looking cocktails. They’re not putting together any other potions.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, man. Yeah, so we mentioned before Connie Neal. I think she really needs to be celebrated. All the best quotes are hers that I came across, and I wanted to wrap up our main segment here with a quote from her. And by the way, she did write two books on Harry: First was What’s a Christian to Do with Harry Potter? in 2001, and the second one that she wrote later in 2008 is The Gospel According to Harry Potter, where she incorporated all the lessons she taught her kids based on Harry Potter. So the quote in a Q&A article is the question, “What fascinates you most about the Harry Potter books?” And her answer was,

“What fascinates me most is it’s about human beings trying to win the battle of good and evil, and the beauty of the spiritual struggle. When you play the game Boggle, the beauty is discovering what words others find. No matter how hard I look, I will never see what you see. And what fascinates me is the richness that comes out of a shared discussion of a good book.”

And I think Connie’s just put the epilogue on 19 years later of MuggleCast, honestly.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: But we’re not ending.

Eric: No, we’re not ending. That’s not a secret way of saying we’re ending. But great discussion about a book from different perspectives, that’s us, you guys!

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. We had one complaint similar to this, one critic from the HP Agent of Conversion article that the series is generally immoral.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Well, we’re generally immoral, so if the shoe fits…

Andrew: That’s true.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So a lot of what we’ve discussed in our main discussion was all from ’99 and 2000, but as we know, we started this podcast in 2005, and we touched on this with the Laura Mallory controversy. So Laura, I want to ask, how did this unfold, and what was that all about?

Laura: Oh my gosh. I mean, you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but Laura Mallory was a concerned mother who launched several attempts to get the Harry Potter books banned from school libraries, particularly at her children’s school, but also in the full district. And if I recall correctly – it’s been over 20 years – she was definitely trying to push the argument for a while that Harry Potter being present in school libraries violated separation of church and state because it was allowing public schools to promote witchcraft as a religion. [laughs] So that was one of the arguments that she took. Of course, she presented a lot of the same rhetoric that you heard in today’s episode, and she was just kind of cringe, honestly. And I think the thing that is so funny reflecting on this is I feel like she got way more national notoriety than she did local notoriety. I always just kind of felt like, “Oh, yeah, it’s just this kooky lady who just happens to live 30 minutes away from me.” Because again, I think the powerful thing about Potter is it may have been the most banned book in the year 2000, but that didn’t stop the fervor. In fact, if anything, I think it drove the fervor further. Because yeah, you could try to ban it in public libraries and schools, but that wasn’t stopping kids from getting their parents to buy it for them or borrowing it from their friends, so it just really wasn’t something that could be contained. And Laura Mallory obviously grappled with that, hence why she tried to levy the case six or seven times.

Eric: Yeah. One of our sources is a timeline of events, and essentially, she challenges the book at J.C. Magill Elementary and all Gwinnett County public school libraries; the elementary review panel says the books have merit and should be available. She then appeals to the school board of Gwinnett County; the hearing officer recommends the books stay. Then there’s a school board holding another hearing. She then appeals to the… yep, after their unanimous ruling, she appeals to the State Board of Education for Georgia. Funny enough, state results of board things are public, and so I looked it up, and here is the official ruling of the Georgia State Board of Education.

“Appellant’s case suffers from the fact that she did not present any evidence to support her allegations.”

This is after two years of trying to get these books removed.

“Her evidence consisted of unverified hearsay that she obtained from the Internet.”

Oh my God.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “The Local Board could discount all such unverified documents. She did not introduce any evidence concerning the tenets of Wicca, nor did she point out specific examples of text within the books that constitute the promotion of Wicca. In effect, then, her allegations remain bare allegations. Although Appellant may claim that the school system similarly failed to present any hard evidence to support its case, the school system did not need to present a case if Appellant failed to present one since she had the burden of proof as a challenging party.”

Yada yada yada, yada yada yada.

Andrew: Yeah, too much legal jargon.

Eric: “Based upon the foregoing, it is the opinion of the State Board of Education that the Local Board did not abuse its discretion in deciding not to remove the Harry Potter series of books from the media centers of its schools because Appellant failed to establish that the books promoted the Wicca religion.”

So after two years of fighting, the court found that she didn’t present evidence. And I’m sorry, when you make a claim, it should have to be backed up, and that just wasn’t the case, apparently.

Laura: No, it was all rhetoric.

Andrew: She should have written a memoir in a book about all this. I mean, that’s her big mistake. She spent years working on this case, all for what? For us to talk about it. I mean, we’re getting played right now. She’s going to hear about this episode; she’s going to be like, “They’re still talking about me? I live rent-free in their heads.”

Micah: [laughs] Oh, wow.

Laura: She really should have written a memoir. Accio Book Ban.

Micah: Mischief Mallory. Oh.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: There was that time we called her.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: There was.

Andrew: Well, we did want to offer a couple of flashbacks in light of today’s discussion. Eric just mentioned we actually called her not once, but twice.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We tried on Episode 58 back in early October 2006, and then the following week – Episode 59, “Time to Talk Time” – because we were sent to voicemail last week, we decided to call her again. So here’s part of that.

[Audio clip plays]

Andrew: Guys, last week we tried to give Laura Mallory a call, and we asked if maybe…

Jamie: Did we?

Andrew: Yeah, we did. And no answer; we got the voicemail, said, “Your call is very important to us,” Ben left a message, asked for her to call us back and no response, so…

Laura: Imagine that.

Andrew: So you want to giving her a call one more time? We’ll give her a call one more time and see if maybe she answers this time.

[Audio clip pauses]

Andrew: I’m just going to pause for a second. Why did I sound drunk, half-asleep, like I was trying to impress a girl?

Eric: You did sound like you were trying to… but you know what? I sounded very pretentious in early episodes too.

[Audio clip resumes]

Jamie: Andrew, Andrew…

[Phone rings]

Jamie: Just be polite, whatever you do.

Answering Machine: Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system.

Andrew: Oh, jeez.

Answering Machine: Laura Mallory is not available. At the tone…

Andrew: That’s a different number.

Answering Machine: … please leave a message. When you are finished recording, please hang up, or press one for more options.

Laura: Is that her cell phone?

Andrew: Yeah. Shhh! [leaving message] Hi, Laura. This is Andrew Sims from MuggleCast. I just wanted to ask you a couple questions about your concerns with the Harry Potter series. You talked to my associate, Ben, last week. Well, he left you a message on your phone at home and he said – well, in your voicemail it says that your call is very important to us, but unfortunately, we didn’t get a call back. So we’d like to have a small interview with you on our show. It gets about a million listeners a week, so it’d be a big-time interview. So give me a call back. The number is 609-668… Thanks. Bye.

[Audio clip ends]

Laura: [laughs] Amazing.

Andrew: My favorite part of that call – and you guys probably couldn’t hear it – but you can hear the slap of my flip phone closing, the Razor, boom, to hang up. I miss that satisfaction of flipping that phone closed.

Micah: How did we get her cell?

Andrew: A phone book? I don’t know. Laura lived nearby, so there was that. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, white pages.

Andrew: But then it’s shocking that the topics that we’re talking about today still come up in schools and states. In 2019, a Catholic school in Nashville banned the Harry Potter books. A pastor at the school said at the time,

“These books present magic as both good and evil, which is not true, but in fact a clever deception. The curses and spells used in the books are actual curses and spells; which when read by a human being risk conjuring evil spirits into the presence of the person reading the text.”

And then the pastor added that they consulted several exorcists in the US and Rome who recommended removing the books.

Eric: So Andrew, what did you do with this knowledge?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: So September 9, 2019, Episode 433, “Gettin’ Figgy.” It was our first episode of our last Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter reread. We called the school for some answers.

Eric: We did, or you did? You have kind of a habit of calling these people up.

[Audio clip plays]

Andrew: We need to call the school.

[Phone dial sound plays]

Pre-recorded voice: Thank you for calling St. Edward School…

Andrew: Now, of course they’re not going to answer, because it’s a Sunday night.

Pre-recorded voice: … to leave a message, wait for the tone. When finished recording, press pound for more options. Record at the tone.

Andrew: Hi, my name is Andrew Sims. I’ve been a longtime Harry Potter podcaster, and for two decades, we’ve been trying to get these darn spells to work in J.K. Rowling’s books. According to a pastor at your school, it sounds like you’ve been able to get these spells and curses to work. I’d love to know how; Accio would be so helpful. Please call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. A Muggle is a nonmagical being, so it is safe for you to call. Unless you’re a witch or wizard, in which case it might not be safe. But thank you. And PS, please put the books back in your library. Okay, bye.

[Audio clip ends]

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Ah, that was great.

Micah: That was awesome.

Eric: Andrew, it’s hard to imagine a more perfect phone call.

Andrew: [laughs] “That was a perfect phone call.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No.

Andrew: No, that was funny. That was really funny. It was a great way to play it, like, “Tell us how the spells work; we’ve been trying forever!”

Eric: But 2019! 2019!

Andrew: That’s scary. That was only five years ago, not even.

Eric: That’s 20 years after the same controversy with same talking points was told… in fact, and we heard from our listener, Kyle, who is the inventor of Quizzitch, who first came on the show because he transformed his classroom into Harry Potter, and guess what? He volunteered during this episode planning that “This topic directly impacted me, because somebody called the principal at my school after my classroom transformation and demanded that I be fired for promoting witchcraft in school.”

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: This stuff is still happening. This is still going on.

Andrew: Well, I wanted to wrap this up by asking what lessons can we learn from this backlash over Harry Potter from conservative Christians and the media coverage of it all?

Eric: Partly, if learned on time, I think this would have been really informative and demonstrative for how the media basically operates today, on every front. Sensationalist journalism, headlines that stoke fear… this is the stuff that sells. And I think it would have been a little bit of a caution, because there was an overwhelming majority of parents who actually did read the books and supported it, even Christian parents, so I think that it’s important to know again – what Laura was saying exactly – it’s a minority. For instance, still in Atlanta, Georgia, there is a poll that was done from the state constitution in September of 1999 that said, “Should the Harry Potter books be banned?” 3,500 people responded. 93% said “No,” and that was among parents who’ve read the books. So again, it was only ever 7% or less that were fighting this, and then much less as you spread out from that area.

Andrew: And I think another lesson here – we’ve touched on this a little bit – is that the media will give a platform to anyone crying foul over anything, especially if it’s popular. They might see an opportunity to become a figurehead of the revolt, and as we’ve seen in the media over the last ten years, and increasingly so, there’s money in being contrarian. There’s money in being on the opposite side.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, this is just me reiterating what I said at the top, but in my personal experience, even though I did grow up in the Bible Belt, most people weren’t thinking and talking like this about Harry Potter. Again, I knew a few people personally who held these views, but the vast majority of kids my age loved Harry Potter and their parents were just happy they were reading.

Andrew: And speaking of that, I think children did take the right messages from these books. There have actually been studies looking at this…

Laura: Yep.

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: … and Harry Potter made a positive impact. I think Harry Potter taught empathy; was that the study? Is that what the study showed? Something like that.

Eric: I think so.

Andrew: And kids got the right messages that there was good and evil in the books. Harry made the right choices, the bad guy loses at the end of the day, and [imitating Dumbledore] it is our choices, Harry. And no one turned out bad. No kid who read it became a witch or wizard, unfortunately.

Laura: And you got a resurrection arc, too, so what more can you want?

Micah: It’s a win-win. I think it comes down to, though, parents have the ability to control certain things when it comes to their kids, and that’s their choice, but when you’re trying to extend that influence into other people and restrict other people’s right to read what they want, that’s where the problem arises. And we were talking earlier about the media piece of this; I’m starting to wonder, too, as J.K. Rowling wrote the later books, particularly with Order of the Phoenix and the role that the Daily Prophet was playing, could some of that have been influenced by her own experience going through this and much of what we’ve just covered in this last episode?

Eric: To make it a little bit more explicitly pro-Christian?

Micah: No, just a lot of the themes that were discussed when you were talking earlier, Eric, about how the media can be used to a specific end, and can… if you look at a lot of what we’ve just discussed here, maybe it was the fact that she was impacted in such a way. I’m not sure that she really cared at the end of the day, but just the way the media can take certain viewpoints and elevate them without a whole lot of basis of fact.

Eric: Yeah. I think that the series wasn’t written in a vacuum, and I think there are examples of the later books being affected by the earlier books’ reception.

Micah: And I’ll just say, because I think it’s important that in this particular instance, we’re looking at her really being canceled by what some would consider to be the right, at least, and how she’s perceived it, and if you’ve ever listened to “The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling,” and now she’s on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, 20 years later, in saying that she’s being canceled by the left. And those are her words, not mine. I’m not pigeonholing any particular person into different facets or politics, but she’s come full circle, too, in that way.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: But ultimately, it’s been really, really fascinating to look at all of this old stuff that was printed. There’s a long quote in the Omaha World Herald by Rainbow Rowell on October 25, 1999. I won’t read it, but it’s a huge support of Harry Potter. I mentioned there’s a Judy Blume article in The New York Times, which says along with Rainbow Rowell, reading is so important, and this series is what’s making children who would normally be on their PlayStation read. You know what we were reading about? What lessons that we took from Harry Potter? How to be inclusive, how to be supportive, how love and choices and we can always have a choice. All of that was all really good stuff that I think really made us into good people.

Andrew: Well, thanks, Eric for organizing this discussion today.

Eric: Yeah, it was fun.

Laura: It is fascinating to dig in on the history and the origin of everything.

Andrew: And listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that is recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. Laura Mallory, call us! Nashville school, call us!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We’re still waiting for a call back. And next week, Chapter by Chapter returns with Chapter 34 of Goblet of Fire, “Priori Incantatem.” And we’re actually going to be skipping Quizzitch this week; it will return next week, but a reminder that the show is brought to you by Muggles like you. Great, smart Muggles like you. We do not have a Ministry of Magic running this show; we’re just everyday Muggles putting together this podcast, flying by the seat of our pants like we’re Hagrid inventing Blast-Ended Skrewts. But that means we need support from listeners like you, so you can help us out in a couple of different ways. If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free, early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And there’s also Patreon.com/MuggleCast; you get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus – the window has now closed – but patrons are going to be getting a MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt if they’re at the Slug Club level. You also get access to our livestreams, our planning docs, the chance to co-host the show one day, a personal video message from one of the four of us; you’ll also be able to participate in the MuggleCast Collectors Club! We have the new stickers. The designs are in; they are awesome. We’ll reveal them soon. And we have lots of other benefits, too, over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We couldn’t do the show without your support, so thank you, everybody. Visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #665

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #665, A Face Only Bellatrix Could Love (GOF Chapters 32 and 33, ‘Flesh, Blood and Bone’ and ‘The Death Eaters’)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, witness the return of Lord Voldemort himself after 13 years without a proper body. And to celebrate this rebirthing party – his words, not ours…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … we’ll be discussing two chapters of Goblet of Fire this week, Chapter 32, “Flesh, Blood, and Bone,” and Chapter 33, “The Death Eaters.”

Micah: Robe me, Andrew. Robe me.

Andrew: Oh.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That was a visual I didn’t want to think about. Will they do that in the Harry Potter TV show? Hmm. Micah and Eric, did you have a good time in Portland?

Eric: We sure did. LeakyCon this year was a lot of fun; we had all of the events that we previously intro’d on the show, and really just a great, great weekend. Lot of fun, right, Micah?

Micah: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. A lot of different panels that we did with some of our friends in the podcasting world, including Fantasy Fangirls, Pottercast, and Potterless/The Newest Olympian. So it was great to meet Nicole and Lexi in person after doing a couple of episodes with them, and of course, we know the folks from Pottercast; we’re old friends with them, and Mike Schubert as well. But it was also great to do the MuggleCast meetup and meet our youngest listener in person.

Andrew: Youngest?!

Micah: Youngest.

Eric: Yes, yes. Baby Seb.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: Oh, that’s sweet.

Laura: That is adorable. I’m so jealous.

Eric: Evidently, his mother would play the show in womb, in utero, to have…

Andrew: The parent who… what’s the parent’s name? Do you want to share?

Micah: Miranda.

Laura: Yeah, Miranda, from…

Eric: Miranda and Matt, so, lovely. Yeah, and it was great to spend so much time with Chloé. We have actually recorded a number of the sessions that we did in various forms, and so patrons can look forward to seeing some of that release in the coming weeks, and otherwise, it was just really good to see everybody in person, so thanks to everybody who made themselves known.

Micah: For folks who weren’t aware, this is the last official LeakyCon, so it was a lot of fun to close out the conference with Pottercast and Chris Rankin and getting a chance to reminisce on all of the fun that we’ve gotten up to – the rivalry, so to speak – over the last close to 20 years. And next year will be Enchanticon, taking place in St. Louis in August, so they are branching out. They are growing. They’re evolving, much like we did with What the Hype?!


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, well, without further ado, let’s get into Chapter by Chapter, and this week, we’re discussing, like I said, Chapters 32 and 33 of Goblet of Fire. And yes, we will do two seven-word summaries this week.

Eric: You know what’s funny about that, Andrew, is that Chapter 32 is barely seven words long.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s why we’re doing two chapters. It’s not just because of the rebirthing party.

Eric: No, no, you looked this up earlier; isn’t this the shortest chapter in the Harry Potter books?

Andrew: Oh, I didn’t look that up. I just read it and was like, “Oh, this is short. Maybe we should do two.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, well, it’s seven pages, so let’s see what we can do here.

Andrew: Okay. All right.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Cedric…

Eric: … falls…

Laura: … to…

Micah: … his…

Andrew: … untimely…

Eric: … sad…

Laura: … demise.

Andrew and Micah: Aw.

Eric: [imitating Amos Diggory] “My boy!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That should have been the whole seven-word summary. “My boy, my boy, my boy, my.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: It’s true.

Andrew: “My boy, my boy, my big boy.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “My little boy.”

Eric: Oh, wow.

Micah: I did look this up, though, in terms of the shortest chapter: Not counting the epilogue, the shortest chapter is Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 20, “The Dementor’s Kiss.” 2,018 words.

Eric: Compared to this chapter, which has an unknown number of words.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Okay, here we go. So as we mentioned in the seven-word summary, this is the moment where Cedric Diggory dies. It’s Harry’s first brush with death that feels real; he does not really remember the death of his parents, even though he has experienced it when he is in the presence of Dementors. But Cedric died as he lived, a hero; his last moments are spent lifting Harry from the ground. They both feel kind of uneasy; Cedric suggests they draw their wands, and there’s sort of a distraction here because as Wormtail holding Volde-thing comes closer, Harry’s scar begins to pain him, and he doubles over. And I’m guessing that in those very, very last moments of Cedric’s, he was probably crouched over Harry, trying to help, trying to see what was wrong, and doesn’t see the spell coming.

Andrew: Yeah. That is a sad thought that his final moments might be trying to help Harry one last time.

Micah: A true Hufflepuff.

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And I wonder, too, because Cedric was a little bit wary about their surroundings, and he did suggest they take their wands out, that… not to put everything on Harry, but if Harry’s scar hadn’t exploded at that time, do you think Cedric would have had a little bit of defensive magic about him, that maybe he would have survived the initial attempt to cast the death curse at him?

Andrew: Maybe, but I don’t know. Voldemort had a plan and he was going to see it through, so even if he bought a few extra minutes or seconds, what’s the difference?

Micah: Though, Wormtail is very jittery this entire chapter, so I wonder how he even had the ability to cast the Killing Curse. He’s walking with baby Voldy in one hand and bouncing him up and down, making sure he’s feeling comfortable…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … and then in the other hand, he takes out his wand – or takes out Voldemort’s wand, I should say – and kills Cedric. It just feels like not something he necessarily would be capable of doing. I don’t picture Wormtail as being able to multitask.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: No, that’s a good point. This is a high stakes night for them. And yeah, he’s always a Nervous Nellie, too, but he’s got Voldemort… his life is on the line, too, if he screws this up, so he has to make sure this all works.

Eric: I assume you’re referring to, Micah, the thing Bellatrix tells Harry, “You have to mean it” to get one of the three Unforgivables. And yeah, I think Peter is just so desperate at this moment that he does very much mean it. He’s like, “Yes, I need to kill this thing, this kid.” The other thing I would say regarding that is that Pettigrew… I always kind of related why he could do it to why Snape can do it, because they’re… you don’t have to have, necessarily, hate in your heart; you just have to have that force of will aspect. I think that’s what Bellatrix means when she says you have to mean it, and we see a lot of the Death Eaters just be able to just cast those types of curses, and I think it comes from practice, as sad as that is.

Laura: And Wormtail doesn’t want to die, so I think that’s all the motivation he needs.

Andrew: Yeah. What stood out to me about this scene is that now that Harry has witnessed the death of Cedric, or any human, as an adult, it does – well, a young adult, a kid, whatever – it sets up his ability to see Thestrals in Order of the Phoenix. And as we learned later in an interview with the author, the difference here is that Harry did see his parents die, but he did not understand what it meant to die when he was a baby. He did not understand the impact, what that is; he didn’t feel the emotional impact. So this is Harry’s first time – as not a baby – witnessing death, and so this, of course, sets up Order of the Phoenix and Thestrals.

Eric: Absolutely. We know that this moment will haunt him; he carries some guilt about it as well. Could he have been better? Could he have done better? But really, the big thing for me is a point here by Micah about Voldemort’s use of phrase.

Micah: Right, because to me, this moment showcases how little regard for human life Voldemort actually has, because he refers to Cedric as the spare. Not another human being, just somebody who’s in the way of him achieving his ultimate goal. And this is actually a turning point in the series; it’s Harry’s introduction into the real world where things don’t always happen for good reasons and aren’t always fair, and it just got real really, really quickly for him. I don’t even know that he’s able to fully process Cedric’s death in the moment; that’s why we see it play out over the course of Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Yeah, no, absolutely not. He didn’t even know he was about to be facing Voldemort tonight! I mean, this is a lot to process in one night.

Eric: [laughs] This was not on his bingo card for how this day would go.

Andrew: No. He thought he was going to wrap up this Triwizard Tourny with Cedry, and they were going to have a nice party, and that was going to be the end of that.

Laura: Cedry? [laughs]

Eric: Cedry. But it is these moments… these two chapters go really hand in hand together. You’re faced with this impossible revelation here, and Harry is put in another situation where he has to escape pretty much by the skin of his teeth, and it’s pretty wild. But in the meantime, we are going to get more world-building, including something that I guess I forgot the book really leans into, except the state that Voldemort is currently in. Voldemort is not a looker, and here’s a quote…

Andrew: Ouch, ouch.

Eric: Yeah, sorry, sorry. Maybe Ralph Fiennes’s Voldemort there’s something there, but not in child form.

Micah: Don’t tell Bellatrix.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: What? Oh, pfft, yeah.

Micah: She thinks he’s definitely a looker.

Eric: Okay, a face only Bellatrix could love. Here’s the quote from the book…

Andrew: [laughs] That’s a good episode title.

Eric: “It was as though Wormtail had flipped over a stone and revealed something ugly, slimy, and blind – but worse, a hundred times worse. The thing Wormtail had been carrying had the shape of a crouched human child, except that Harry had never seen anything less like a child. It was hairless and scaly-looking, a dark, raw, reddish black. Its arms and legs were thin and feeble, and its face – no child alive ever had a face like that – flat and snakelike, with gleaming red eyes.” This is terrifying. And if you’ve been playing at home, you know that this is the form that Voldemort is now in after 13 whole entire years of being blasted from his body and literally clinging on to life – he’s about to tell the story of how that all worked – but this is the most that he could do, which goes to show how close to death I think he was, but it also shows how far from anything good in the world Voldemort is.

Andrew: He is described as like a baby in some ways, and I like the idea of him looking like a baby, because it is a rebirth as he uses in this chapter or the next one. Symbolically, I think it really works having him in this state, and I think this also just illustrates how badly Voldemort needs what’s about to happen to happen. He needs to put together this potion with Pettigrew’s help to bring him back to life, because after 13 years, to your point, this is the best he’s come up with.

Laura: And I think it’s fair to say, too, that it’s not just a baby, but it’s a perversion of what a baby is supposed to look like, and I think that’s what makes it so uncomfortable. And I always interpreted this – and as well as the way he shows up at King’s Cross in Deathly Hallows, where, again, he’s in a similar fetal type state – I think it’s representative of the remains of a vessel whose soul was damaged beyond repair. To your point, Eric, about this, this is the after effect of everything that’s…

Eric: It’s an abomination.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: And he’s been sucking on snake venom for the last couple of months, too, which…

Laura: Oh, maybe that’s why he’s scaly.

Micah: … probably contributes to his look, yeah. And building off of what you said, Andrew, some of the symbolism here, could it be that it was a baby that ultimately destroyed Voldemort that night in Godric’s Hollow, so he takes a similar form until he is again reborn?

Laura: I love that.

Andrew: Yeah, me too.

Eric: So we get something like a recipe for how to rebirth a Dark Lord…

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: … and we’re going to have some fun with this, yeah. It’s funny because in Harry Potter, all spells and things are Latin, until they’re not, unless they’re not, and this is an instance in which it’s not at all. Everything that’s done is done in English. Pettigrew is speaking to basically no one, except Harry is there, so I guess Harry gets it. But okay, so there’s three ingredients to the process of making a Dark Lord. Number one, bone of the father, unknowingly given. Or should we…?

Andrew: We have to say it in a fun way, like a curse.

Eric: Oh, okay, here we go. Okay, I’ll go first, and you guys do the others. You ready?

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: [in a creepy voice] “Bone of the father, unknowingly given.”

Andrew: Yeah. I’m thinking of like, the Wicked Witch in Snow White when she’s making her potion or whatever.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: [imitating the Wicked Witch from The Wizard of Oz] “And your little dog too!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: There we go. So as far as this goes, he also states – Wormtail does – what it’s for, what each object is for. The bone of the father, unknowingly given, will “renew your son.” So why do we think that the bone needs to be unknowingly given? Because we seem to understand that it has as much to do with the ingredient as it does with this circumstance. So in order for this to work, the dad can’t know his bone is being taken?

Laura: I think that means he has to be dead.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Has to be dead, and it’s almost a betrayal, too. So you’re betraying people in your family to bring yourself back to life; I think there’s something there with the betrayal.

Eric: Oh. Yeah, you’re desecrating remains. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: You’re kind of reinventing yourself; you’re recreating a family member.

Eric: Yeah, because I keep thinking of it as a DNA thing, like Polyjuice; you need a bit of the person. So it’s like, “Oh, he needs the bone of his dad, because it’s his family line or whatever.” But I love this idea of you’re committing another horrible act to do this.

Micah: I actually wondered about this a little bit in terms of why it was necessary for him to use his father’s bone, given that the magic comes from his mother’s side of the family.

Eric: Ohhh. Voldemort’s, you mean.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I mean old, ancient Dark magic like this is bound to be extremely…

Eric: Sexist?

Laura: … patriarchal.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: So that’s probably why, Micah.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Who wants to read ingredient two?

Andrew: I will. Eric’s voice was very good; it’s hard to live up to that.

Eric: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Andrew: So I don’t know what to do after that, but… [in a spooky voice] “Flesh of the servant, willingly given!”

Eric: Hey, that was excellent!

Andrew: Just going the opposite direction.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Very good.

Laura: Good job.

Eric: Gee willikers! I’m spooked!

Andrew: [laughs] And so this is to “revive” the master.

Eric: Here’s a question: Wormtail cuts his hand off for this, but it grows a whole body’s worth of flesh. So we know it’s pale, but where’s the math mathing on this? How much flesh of the servant is needed, and why?

Micah: Does that really matter, though? It’s not like you’re going to take a whole human body and dump it into the cauldron.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It’s like, you’ve got the bones, you’ve got the flesh, and you’ve got the blood.

Eric: Little bit of this, little bit of that.

Andrew: Yeah, their powers combined.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It’s like how bread rises; that’s what’s happening here. The skin, the body all rises and forms the final product.

Micah: And it’s all from people that he despises too.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: We see that kind of come into play. I’ll tell you guys, when I first read this moment in particular, Wormtail cutting his own hand off, I gasped. And it wasn’t because of the self-mutilation, it wasn’t because of the body horror aspect, but it was because the hand that gets cut off is Wormtail’s right hand, the one that’s missing a finger, i.e. if anybody ever found Wormtail, his hand would be the one that proves that it’s really him, and would set Sirius Black free! Now that his hand is cut off and gone, we’re not going to be able to prove that Wormtail really is the OG Wormtail without that missing finger hand. And so I gasped because there it goes, the bit of evidence we had to save Sirius’s name. That’s when I knew that that was not going to happen in these books.

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: It’s a tragedy. But Eric, do you think that Wormtail might have intentionally chosen that hand for that reason? If his missing finger wasn’t a dead giveaway to his identity, would he have chosen to maim himself in a less terrifying, horrifying way?

Eric: Yeah, if he’s like, “I can get something out of this, more anonymity.” We do find out later in this chapter, or later in the next chapter, that he was spotted and outed basically by Bertha Jorkins; she recognized him in public, so the fewer identifying marks on him the better. Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, unless he’s a lefty, there’s no real reason to cut off your own right hand. Maybe Voldemort promised he would grow it back. But yeah, I think it’s a good call. I think it’s smart. And plus, if he cut off his left hand, he’d be one-handed and only have four fingers. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, so that’s what I was kind of thinking in that direction. He’s killing two birds with one stone here, Wormtail is, because by sacrificing that hand with the missing finger, Voldemort will give him a brand new one, and then all is well.

Micah: I just think he did it because he wanted to be known as Voldemort’s right hand man.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that makes sense, too. [laughs] Eric with the fake laugh.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It was genuine, but now it’s not anymore.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So the third and final ingredient, Laura, do you want to take this?

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: Sure. Man, I’m not good at this stuff.

Andrew: We believe in you.

Laura: Okay, all right. [in a hardcore voice] “Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken.”

Andrew: [also in a hardcore voice] Whoa, that was so cool.

Laura: [laughs] Shut up.

Eric: Oh my God, what’s it for?

Laura: It’s to “resurrect your foe.”

Eric: So the interesting thing surrounding this ingredient is that Wormtail has been asking Voldemort all year to use someone else. Anyone else at all could have actually been used for this stage; it does not need to be Harry. So do we think that it all pretty much would have been the same if he had used anyone else’s blood? Except for, of course, removing the magic protection. If your goal is to get a body back, it would still work, right?

Andrew: Yeah, and I think that’s noted in here. Doesn’t Voldemort say, “I want Harry’s blood”? “I want his, because he’s the one who brought me down.”

Laura: It is interesting, though, because the wording here is “blood of the enemy,” and I mean, I think Voldemort has many enemies, but it says not blood of an enemy, it’s the enemy, and Harry is the enemy.

Andrew: Ohhh. Yeah, interesting.

Laura: So maybe Wormtail was just… maybe it was just wishful thinking on Wormtail’s part that it could have worked with someone else.

Eric: Yeah, it’s interesting because Voldemort says it needs to be somebody that hates him, but he’s got that list of people that probably qualify. But again, this is the non-consent aspect. This is the Dark Magic aspect of it, is you’ve taken something from somebody that wasn’t yours to take.

Micah: I just see Wormtail as extremely antsy and wanting to get the job done, and that’s probably why he’s like, “Take anybody, take anybody.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But it could also have to do with the debt that Wormtail owes to Harry, and he probably doesn’t want Voldemort to find out about that.

Eric: Yeah, things are really sticky around Harry when it comes to that.

Micah: But I did want to pose a question, though, because you brought up how it says that it needed to be somebody that hated him: Does Harry actually hate Voldemort at this point in the series? Because I don’t think that he does. In the first two books, he likely fears him. In Book 3, Voldemort is pretty much MIA minus the ties to the Dementors. And in Book 4, Harry is more or less indifferent towards Voldemort right up until this point where I think he’s, much like Books 1 and 2, pretty much pooping his pants, afraid of what’s going on right now. [laughs] So I don’t think… hate is a very strong word; I just don’t think Harry, at 14 years old, hates Voldemort.

Andrew: He killed his parents, though. You’re leaving that part out. I mean, that’s another reason to hate Voldemort.

Eric: Yeah, I think he does. I think it’s a deep enough adversarial sort of thing.

Micah: Not enough buildup.

Andrew: [laughs] Not enough buildup.

Eric: We needed that chapter earlier in the year where Ron and Hermione walk into the Gryffindor tower and Harry is in a corner going, “I hate him. I hate him.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: And they’re like, “What’s up, Harry?” And he’s like, “I really just hate Voldemort.”

Andrew: He’s also been hearing since he became a wizard that Voldemort is the Darkest wizard of all time, huge threat… I agree with you; he’s afraid of him, too, but I think you can easily justify that Harry also hates him at this point.

Eric: Yeah, Voldemort stands for everything Harry doesn’t, or Harry stands for everything Voldemort doesn’t, and so I think there’s a natural hate aspect to it. But I mean, let’s look at the risk; they took a huge risk waiting for Harry. Voldemort, really, after 13 years of waiting, could have had his body back a long time ago. The beginning of this year.

Andrew: And he just killed Cedric! “He just killed my friend. That’s mean; I hate him now.”

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, that was also kind of stupid, because if we’re to believe that Voldemort could pretty much use anyone who hated him, I think we can assume that Cedric hated him, [laughs] and Cedric could have literally been the spare. If it didn’t work with Harry, you have a backup.

Andrew: Backup blood.

Laura: Now they don’t.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Eric: We ready to dive into Chapter 33, “The Death Eaters”?

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Bring it on.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Micah: Loyalists…

Laura: … arrive…

Eric: … and…

Andrew: … worship…

Micah: … Voldemort’s…

Laura: … triumphant…

Eric: … revival.

Andrew: Woo!

Laura: Yay, we did it.

Andrew: I was hoping it was going to end with stinky feet. “Worship Voldemort’s stinky feet.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: That’s kind of what I was hoping for.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Isn’t that a movie-ism?

Micah: His nasty toenails? Yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, they do kiss the hem of his robes.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: But yes, so okay, here’s what happens. Here’s what you may have missed in between chapters. Voldemort presses Wormtail’s Dark Mark, and it calls the Death Eaters to him. Yeahhh.

Andrew: The bat phone.

Eric: But actually, Voldemort is so happy to be back in a body because it grew out of that cauldron, and he did need Wormtail to robe him, which was last week’s Quizzitch question.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “Robe me, Wormtail.”

Laura: Awful.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. But Voldemort, I would feel… I understand this feeling. Voldemort is feeling chatty right now; he’s going to monologue for a real long time.

Andrew: He’s got a tight five coming up.

Eric: [laughs] What’s that?

Andrew: Oh, in stand-up comedy, you have a tight five, a tight ten that you can easily do on stage.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. Okay, so here’s his tight five…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He compares his own Muggle father to Harry’s Muggle-born mother… [laughs] except probably doesn’t get any laughs. But he says that both of them were useful in the end. Okay, rude. He also gives a little bit insight into his own father; he tells Harry that Tom Riddle, Sr. was intolerant of magic and rejected his mother when he found out she was a witch. To this I’m about to call bullshit, or like, wait a minute, Voldemort, because we kind of know a lot more, thanks to Book 6. And the whole situation with Merope putting Tom Riddle, Sr. in a love potion, it causing this huge scandal long ago when the handsome young suitor Tom ended up running off with Merope, how much of that do we think Voldemort knows and is simply cherry picking here when he tells Harry?

Laura: I don’t know if we ever fully get an answer to that question. I would think that Tom would have been able to figure out at least the broad strokes of the story, but whether he knows it or not, I think that it’s convenient for him to reject his Muggle father in this way, because it’s really the thing that drives him in his hatred of Muggles and his pursuit of wizard supremacy.

Eric: But… yeah.

Micah: What I love about this moment, though, is that he is admitting… and I guess this is prior to the Death Eaters arriving, right?

Eric: Technically, yeah.

Andrew: Shortly before.

Micah: Okay, so then that kind of invalidates my point, because otherwise he would be admitting in front of all of his followers that he is not a pure-blood.

Laura: Right.

Eric: I think young Tom Riddle in the diary in Chamber of Secrets also mentioned it, his half-blood status. Could be wrong there. But the thing is, he just tells Harry in this chapter that Tom Riddle, Sr. was intolerant of magic. That’s not technically true. Tolerant… that’s a little bit different than not liking the fact that magic was used on you to hoodwink you, to sire a child that you didn’t know about. I think it’s fair for Tom Senior to not enjoy that that happened to him, and I’m sure the entire Riddle family would have told the younger Voldemort when he came calling that his mother had hoodwinked or bewitched or whatever, and I think the shame of it would have, in fact, been what caused Voldemort to kill all of them. The book, meaning this book, opens with the Muggle police finding their bodies and the Killing Curse had been cast on all of them, so I just see Voldemort coming to the house trying to figure out, maybe get answers, “Father, why’d you leave me?”, that kind of thing, and just being met with a horror show of stories about how his mother was in the wrong, and I’m sorry, but that’s too much for any young mind to really, especially in Voldemort’s state, to take, and he killed them.

Laura: Well, and I think that they would have rejected him too. And I think if there was any kind of conversation had – if he didn’t just show up and point blank kill them without exchanging any words – I think as soon as they realized who he was, they wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with him, and I think that would have just fueled that fire that leads to him killing them.

Micah: And he wanted to erase any trace of his Muggle lineage, so that certainly plays into this as well.

Eric: Right. I just think it’s very Voldy to cherry pick the facts here.

Laura: Oh, for sure.

Eric: When he tells Harry, “Oh, my Muggle father, worthless; he wasn’t tolerant of magic,” you can’t really take that at face value.

Andrew: Speaking of family lineage, it struck me how Voldemort, of all people, is giving a little lesson on chosen family here…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: … because the Death Eaters show up and he says, “Oh, look, Harry, my true -” in italics “- family returns,” basically saying, “I have a new family, and it’s my people here. This is my chosen family.”

Eric: Who rescued who, honestly?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: The Death Eaters or Voldemort?

Andrew: The thing is, too, I mean, Voldemort is just so misguided. Even Voldemort’s chosen family didn’t choose him, and he wonders why none of them came to his aid sooner over the last 13 years. Even Wormtail wasn’t loyal; he came to Voldemort because he was afraid of his old friends.

Eric: Must be a pretty rude awakening to realize none of your family like you at all as a person. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, and it goes back to the very top of the discussion when you were talking, Eric, about how Voldemort presses Wormtail’s Dark Mark, and it’s a bit of a pump fake because Wormtail in that moment believes that Voldemort is coming over to heal him, to replace his hand, but in fact, it is only to activate the Dark Mark, and it shows that Voldemort cares very little for people beyond what he can use them for.

Laura: I do love in this moment how Wormtail is like, “Oh, Master, thank you,” and Voldemort is like, “Girl, sit down.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Sucks to suck. So here we go, moving on a little bit. Once all of them arrive, the Death Eaters take turns bowing and kissing the hem of Voldemort’s robes, aw.

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: And also, they had an assigned order in the circle, apparently. I don’t know if they drew straws or had numbers or whatever, but they assume their old positions, and there’s gaps in between in the circle, and Voldemort is able to identify from the gap. It’s on the buddy system or something. He realizes who’s not there, even though they’re all wearing hoods, just because of where they stand in line. It’s very cute.

Micah: I will say this is one of the most magicky moments in all of the Harry Potter series, because it’s very much… like, you have a circle, and you have a Dark Mark, and you’re calling…

Eric: There’s a cauldron.

Micah: Yeah, there’s a cauldron. It’s in a graveyard.

Andrew: A prayer circle type thing.

Micah: Yeah, it’s like a seance, almost, and it’s probably one of the only main moments where we get this Dark magic happening.

Andrew: [imitating Voldemort] “The Lestranges are missing at my five o’clock! Where are they?”

Micah: Laura Mallory must have just read this chapter and set her off.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Probably.

Eric: Yeah, maybe. After seeing some familiar names – Macnair, Lucius Malfoy – there are ultimately some names that we haven’t heard before, or at least I don’t remember hearing before. Avery, for instance, is so apologetic for not finding Voldemort that he steps forward and Voldemort Crucios him. But I was like, “Avery? Who’s this?” I remember it bothering me that these Death Eaters who weren’t even on my radar before can still be out there, because I would have… you want the good side to have put most of them in Azkaban. It’s okay for there to be Death Eaters once they break out from Azkaban, because they were all put there, but knowing that there were so many – Harry at one point says he’s outnumbered thirty to one – and so there are that many Death Eaters that never got caught, and they’re able to just drop what they’re doing and support Voldemort again.

Laura: Yeah, and that’s a reflection of reality.

Eric: Don’t I know it?

Laura: Yeah, whole lot of people out there who either never got caught or never got held accountable.

Micah: I do just want to call out some of the discussion going on in the Discord because JKO17 is noting how Voldemort doesn’t have a nose, but says that there wasn’t enough flesh for one, to which Justin responded, “It was the missing finger.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Guys, guys…

Micah: So Pettigrew’s missing finger is the reason that Voldemort has no nose.

Andrew: Whoa. You know what? Update the Wikipedia, because…

Micah: Can we Max that?

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

[Laura laughs]

Eric: There we go. That’s the better one. Yeah, declaring canon on it.

Andrew: I’ll do both.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Those two work really well together. So here we go: It’s finally time for Voldemort to fix Wormtail’s arm, mostly because I’m sure at this point he’s just tired of him whining and crying. [laughs] He says, “May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail,” to which Wormtail replies, “No, my lord… never, my lord.” Is this forming some kind of vow here and now? The magic around the hand is fresh, and it seems to be done for Wormtail with the intention of never wavering his loyalty. And this is really the moment to look at if you’re considering the way in which Wormtail dies eventually, and especially because I think, Micah, you mentioned, too, his life debt to Harry. Harry essentially calls that in, and it triggers the hand to go all haywire on him. So it seems like this is some kind of real agreement, like magically binding thing, between Voldemort and Wormtail here.

Micah: Yeah, I think that for Wormtail, he has just essentially been sentenced to death. Laura, you have this point here too.

Laura: Oh, yeah, he’s a dead man walking.

Micah: Voldemort doesn’t trust Wormtail as far as he can throw him, [laughs] and this is just a way of ensuring his loyalty. And I think if he would have known about the debt, he wouldn’t have even given Wormtail a hand. He probably just would have killed him right there.

Andrew: And what stuck out to me was that after Pettigrew thanks Voldemort for the hand, Voldemort replies, “May your loyalty never waver again,” and little does he know that hand is going to kill him if he does.

Eric: It’s a threat. Yeah, it’s a threat, and it’s sort of reprimanding. Honestly, for calling his Death Eaters his real family or whatever, he speaks to them like a scolding school teacher. He’s clearly the one in the room with the power, but he’s like, [imitating Voldemort] “Hello, welcome.” You know? It just… “Welcome, children, come in the circle.” The last time I sat in a circle, it was on a little piece of carpet and it was in second grade.

Andrew: It just underscores how broken Voldemort is and how he has no friends or family, no chosen friends or family, no real friends.

Eric: Yeah, he’s so removed from mortality and doesn’t really understand mortals. But we’ve talked about this before; Voldemort doesn’t have family. He has followers. And that’s kind of what… the idea that he’s conflating the two, that he calls his followers “family,” that’s way different. That’s off.

Laura: Do we think that he’s trying to emulate Dumbledore in a way here? In a very perverse, inverted way?

Andrew: Dumbledore is certainly on his mind; he wonders if any of the Death Eaters were teaming up with Dumbledore while he’s been gone, so maybe.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah, he has a couple shots he throws his way.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And just really, the whole demonstrating Wormtail’s arm in front of the others is to show that he’s merciful and can reward them for deeds done. He makes such a show of it, of like, “You too, kids.” He wants to reward good behavior, acts of service, and there’s just something very one-sided about it and kind of… I was going to say infantilizing, but I don’t even know.

Laura: I mean, there’s strings attached to everything.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So here are some other names: We did mention Lucius Malfoy and Macnair. Crabbe and Goyle, presumably the fathers of the students that we know. The Lestranges get a mention; they’re both in Azkaban. And then Voldemort mentions three followers, one who is “too cowardly to return,” one who left forever and will be punished, and one who’s at Hogwarts. We now know that the one too cowardly is Karkaroff; the one who left forever is Snape, and that will be rectified soon; and the one who’s at Hogwarts is now Barty Crouch, Jr./Fakey. So I guess it is nice now that we have some of these names to really get a sense of who our enemy is. It really strikes me in this chapter that this is what this book has really been building towards. Surely, it’s about Voldemort, but it’s as much about the people that follow him, who at the beginning of the book and the Quidditch World Cup were just in hoods, and now we have names and personalities for some of them. And Harry is taking it all in, and he quickly remembers these names, mentally, so that he can tell Fudge in a few chapters who it all is. But it’s just really interesting to finally – and terrifying – to get sight of these people.

Andrew: And I think when you’re reading this the first time, you hear the one who is at Hogwarts, you automatically assume that is Snape the first time.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: Harry doesn’t really reflect on that, though, but there’s a lot going on in the moment.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It’s really well done, and we just assume that Snape has fallen back into… we’re so used to suspecting him at this point.

Andrew: And something that also stuck out to me was that the Death Eaters are scared of Voldemort and what he’s going to do, like, will he take out revenge on any of them? We see Crucio, of course, being used. But I do think ultimately they are in a safe position; he needs numbers badly, and these are the people who showed up pretty darn quick when he activated the Dark Mark, so I don’t know. I think they got nothing to worry about. I’m sure it’s scary seeing him come back to life, but still, you guys are safe for now.

Eric: I think they all know it would be worse if they didn’t come back. If Voldemort really did the impossible and managed to get his body back – which he has – they would be hunted down, and it would be a lot worse for all of them if they weren’t here right now.

Micah: But I actually agree with that point; if Voldemort did start tracking down some of them for not showing up, doesn’t that diminish his own numbers? Or does he just feel like he’s all powerful, so even if he doesn’t have his followers… but then again, he does reference bringing others back into his fold, right? He talks about the giants, he talks about the Dementors, so he clearly has plans. But I just wonder how much he could actually hurt himself by taking out Death Eaters that maybe aren’t as quick to respond as they used to be.

Eric: Again, he has no value for life. I think to him it’s just sureing up loose ends.

Andrew: Well, speaking of loose ends, we’re going to finally find out how he did it all, but first, we’re going to take a quick break and we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Eric: All right, here’s how it happened: Voldemort reveals after killing Lily and James and attempting to kill Harry, he was removed from his body and was weaker than every other living thing, but he was alive. He was reduced to, essentially, really only saying to himself, “Stay alive. Stay alive. Stay alive.” Probably played the Bee Gees a little bit.

Andrew: Yeah, I was just going to say. [singing “Stayin’ Alive”] Ah, ah, ah, ah…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But amazing, the idea… there’s a realm of thought or physics that says pretty much existence and creation is caused by conscious thought, so we exist because we say we exist. And that’s what this really speaks to here, is that’s how diminished Voldemort was. Yes, his Horcruxes worked, but he pretty much was nothing. Not just a soul without a body; less than that, even. It’s pretty wild.

Micah: Yeah, and I do like how Voldemort teases his Horcruxes in this particular moment; he does make mention of the fact that the Death Eaters knew of the steps he took to preserve himself. So do we think that all of them were aware? And just how much did they know? Was it a select few of them? And then I have a separate question as to whether or not he knows that Lucius bungled his diary a couple years ago.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Because I’ve got to imagine, if he did, he would be pretty pissed off.

Eric: No, no, he does find out, obviously, but I don’t think he knows that at this moment.

Laura: Lucius is so nervous at this point.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I would think Voldemort is trying to keep his plans in as tight of a circle as possible, because the more people you tell, the bigger risk you take of them spilling out into the open. Any one of these Death Eaters could betray him, and sure, Voldemort could just turn around and kill whoever betrays him, but by that time, the damage might already be done. The secret might already be out.

Eric: It’s a big deal that Regulus, a Death Eater, is able to discover Voldemort’s secret, and he says, “I’ve found your secret.” And so when Voldemort tells his followers, “You all know how I’ve taken steps to evade death and be impenetrable,” what he’s saying is they know that he’s done things.

Micah: But they don’t know the specifics.

Eric: Yeah, they don’t know what it is. It’s like, he calls them his Death Eaters, “Voldemort” itself means “flight from death” in French, so they know he’s an avoiding death fanatic.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: But I don’t think he would tell really any of them.

Micah: Well, and here’s the proof that it worked.

Eric: Yeah. Well, right, right, exactly. Here’s the proof that it worked. But if you’re not Bellatrix who stored something in your vault, and if you’re not Lucius who stored something under your drawing room floor, you really wouldn’t have any indication that there was even a physical artifact to be looking for, let alone several.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I could definitely see him, too, sort of siloing all of these events and these people who were helping him. So it could totally be that Lucius thinks that the diary is the Horcrux and doesn’t know that there are six other ones out there, or at that time five?

Eric: Yeah.

Laura: And Bellatrix, maybe she thinks that she also is the only one who has something important to Voldemort. So it just seems like he would do that out of self-preservation, to have several people unknowingly working to help protect his literal life.

Andrew: That’s a really good point.

Laura: Yeah, do they even know that he had as many Horcruxes as he had?

Andrew: Yeah, probably not.

Laura: It’s on a need to know basis for the inner circle.

Andrew: And it’s not like these objects are medicine with a label on it that says “Brings you back to life.”

Laura: Right.

Andrew: It’s like, “What is he going to use this for? Why is this item so important to him?”

Eric: Yeah. In fact, I think it’s the fact that Malfoy doesn’t know exactly what the diary is. He just knows what it will do that allows him to sacrifice it to begin with, to use it to cause havoc for personal gain.

Andrew: So that is kind of one flaw in Voldemort’s plan. He should have said, “Be careful with this. Don’t lose it. Don’t let it get destroyed.”

Eric: [sentimentally] “This diary is like a part of me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So we are treated to a little bit of fate, and yes, fate works in wonderful ways sometimes, but it really is bad fate that occurred here: The gross moment that Wormtail escapes in Prisoner of Azkaban because Lupin didn’t take his potion eventually led to Wormtail, desperate for a decent meal, bumping into Bertha Jorkins in a pub. She recognized him, but he convinced her to walk alone with him at night. True crime buzzers going off. This is awful. Don’t do this.

Laura: Yeah! What is it with these characters and walking by forests at night?

Andrew: [laughs] Sometimes an evening stroll is nice.

Micah: Maybe she had a crush on Peter back in the day.

Laura: Maybe.

Eric: Well, I wouldn’t put it past anybody. Maybe Peter was less horrible back then. But yeah, I mean, he quickly overpowers Bertha, he takes her, he then finds Voldemort, takes her to Voldemort – there was this whole thing with the rats, where Pettigrew figured out where Voldemort was, which is sort of impressive – and then Voldemort was able to break Bertha Jorkins’s Memory Charm. She had the piece of the clue that said that Barty Crouch, Jr. is alive and desperate to return to your service, and so that allowed the entire rest of the plot to happen, basically. Here’s something: Voldemort does talk about the spell, or he made his own spell or two as part of his journey to becoming bodied again. Micah, I’m wondering if you could read this segment.

Micah: Sure.

“‘Poor wizard though he is, Wormtail was able to follow the instructions I gave him, which would return me to a rudimentary, weak body of my own, a body I would be able to inhabit while awaiting the essential ingredients for true rebirth… a spell or two of my own invention… a little help from my dear Nagini,’ Voldemort’s red eyes fell upon the continually circling snake, ‘a potion concocted from unicorn blood, and the snake venom Nagini provided… I was soon returned to an almost human form, and strong enough to travel.”

Eric: So Voldemort talks about being so weak that he couldn’t hold a wand, even. No body, right? So he eventually is able to figure out that unicorn blood, which he was using in the first year – which cursed him and comes with its own thing – mixed with the venom of Nagini can ultimately create the horror show that you see in this baby-like Voldy. I wonder… it’s interesting here because we’re getting Nagini, but we don’t have her backstory. She, of course, also met Voldemort in Albania, but that story is not told here. I also wonder, chronologically, where she fits in, because Voldemort has Nagini at the beginning of Goblet of Fire, and he trusts her well enough to make her a Horcrux once he kills Frank Bryce at the beginning of this book, which was confirmed by the author.

Micah: I thought it was Bertha Jorkins’s death that made Nagini a Horcrux.

Eric: I will look that up.

Andrew: I think that sounds right.

Laura: Yeah. Well, I guess we don’t know exactly how long Nagini has been with Voldemort. I mean, he was in Albania for a while.

Eric: Oh, it’s Bertha Jerkins. You’re right; sorry about that. So but yeah, still, when did they have time to develop this relationship? Was Nagini one of the creatures that Voldemort attempted to possess? Upon so doing, did he really learn more about Nagini? Because the later stuff that we got, the very heavily problematic Maledictus stuff from Fantastic Beasts era where… guys, do you remember Nagini is an actual character, a grown woman in the Fantastic Beasts movies?

Andrew: I kind of block it out when I read the books.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, but the eventual decline of her ability to transform back into humanity means she’s one day going to forget it. I actually had a really interesting thought, which is no wonder her snake venom helps Voldemort regain a human form, is because her blood curse, her unique condition, has some level of… that transformation between human and snake seems like it would be retained in DNA or something.

Micah: He’s getting the good eats, is what you’re saying.

Eric: Well, it’s very specifically designed to do one thing, and it’s change between the species. So maybe the fact that… maybe Nagini’s milk is actually the really, really incredible, important ingredient in that potion. And here’s something I think we can all relate to that Voldemort says, which is he didn’t just want to come back because he had already sacrificed time, and he already decided he wasn’t going for full immortality, so his plan to come back was to at least come back a little stronger than he was before he left. I think this is the sunk-cost fallacy. This is “I’ve already spent so much time on this.” And you know when you leave a job and you don’t want to take a job that would have been a lateral move, even though that’s good; you want a job that’s a promotion because you always want to be moving forward? That’s Voldemort waiting all year to get Harry’s blood. He wants to be better than he was before, obviously.

Andrew: In the words of Britney Spears, “Stronger than yesterday.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s it. That’s what it comes down to. Stronger than yesterday.

Laura: I was going to say, listen, the man has a goal. He took his time. He put his eyes on the prize, and he did it.

Eric: He tries to touch Harry, and it works. We know a little bit more, having read the later books, that the removal of Lily’s protection in this manner by taking Harry’s blood also further doubles down and connects Harry and Voldemort to this world, which strengthens both of their bonds. I think it might, in fact, be – just speculating here – but Harry’s blood in Voldemort’s veins that actually gives Harry his take-backsie from death a little later on. I think just because they’re so connected that Voldemort is almost like an anchor point at that point for Harry to stay tethered.

Laura: Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Eric: If not explicitly said later, I think that that’s cool. So yeah, it just… Voldemort is on top of the world, and he’s bragging that he’s about to kill Harry, but first he’s going to let him duel, and that’s sort of where the chapter wraps up.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: So let’s go to MVP of the week now for both chapters.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Dumbledore, who Voldemort admits is the reason that he can’t get to Harry while he’s at Hogwarts. And I know that y’all here on the panel say, “Oh, Dumbledore, he’s not present enough. He’s not doing enough.” Well, here’s Big V saying Big D is scary, and he doesn’t want to touch Harry at Hogwarts. He does not want to deal with that. So well done, Dumbledore.

Eric: Andrew, I’m going to have HR talk to you about your use of Big V and Big D.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Big D and Big V; they’re the big bads!

Eric: I’m going to give my MVP to Snape in advance for going from the one that “left forever, will be punished,” to Voldemort’s Death Eater again. He’s got some ‘splainin to do, but we know from Spinner’s End in Book 6 that Snape did a most magnificent job up ahead. But here we only see Voldemort’s disdain for Snape, so good job turning it around, buddy.

Micah: And I’m going to give it to the Little Hangleton graveyard for hosting the first Death Eater rager in 13 years.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And I’m going to give it to Big V…

Andrew: What?

Laura: … as he will henceforth be known. Listen, the man had a plan; it finally worked. Fourth time’s a charm, and he got him, so congrats. [laughs]

Andrew: Remember when we used to have Tylor on the show, and Tylor would say, “Voldemort is my favorite character”?

Laura: He would’ve loved that.

Andrew: Yeah, you’re giving Tylor right now.

Laura: I know. Someone has to.

Andrew: Disgusting! [laughs] Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can email or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And then we also have the contact form on MuggleCast.com, so there’s plenty of ways to contact us. Next week is Episode 666…

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: … and Micah and Eric, you had an idea for that episode, right?

Eric: Yeah, and we could do another Voldemort episode, but why would we do that?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Let’s actually go back to the very beginning of Harry Potter fandom and talk about the parents that tried to get the Harry Potter books banned from schools in the early ’00s because Harry Potter is anti-Christianity and promotes witchcraft. I have spent hours looking up old newspaper clippings and finding out what is the true history of that, and we’re going to go through it next episode as sort of a featured discussion.

Micah: I also think that it’s worth recycling some old MuggleCast clips. Remember, Andrew put in a phone call to one school here in the United States?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That was great.

Micah: That was looking to ban the Harry Potter books?

Andrew: That was great. We’ll have to find that.

Micah: And also, we mentioned her earlier, but Laura Mallory was really the villain of the Harry Potter fan community for quite some time because of her campaign to just obliterate the Harry Potter books from the face of the earth.

Andrew: Yeah, and to those of you who hear us occasionally mention Laura Mallory and you’re like, “What?”, you’ll finally get some backstory on that in next week’s episode.

Micah: She’s coming on. She’s a huge Harry Potter fan.

Andrew: [laughs] Hey, in the spirit of old times, maybe we should try to call her and see if she answers.

Laura: Hey, maybe she’s turned over a new leaf. I haven’t kept up with her.

Andrew: Yeah, maybe.

Laura: Probably not. [laughs]

Andrew: Check in with Laura.

Micah: Go knock on her door, Laura.

Andrew: Yeah, you live nearby.

Laura: Oh, yeah, she’s my neighbor.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So I’ll let y’all know what she says.

Micah: You guys have Sunday dinner, don’t you? Go to church together?

Laura: Yeah. Oh, 100%.

Andrew: Only one Laura can prevail, so the big fight will happen next weekend.

Laura: “Only one…” [laughs] What is the prophecy?

Micah: Do it like Celebrity Deathmatch style?

Andrew: “Neither can live while the other survives.”

Laura: “While the other survives,” thank you, thank you. There can only be one.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Listeners, we’re having fun, we’re always having fun, and if you enjoy what we do, don’t forget that now is the best time of year to pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, because we recently announced the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt commemorating our 19 years of Harry Potter podcasting. Slug Club members, check your Patreon for the link to the order form, and be sure to fill out the form by July 19. And if you are not currently a patron, it’s not too late. Sign up at Patreon.com/MuggleCast at the Slug Club level and fill out that order form, and we will get you a T-shirt in a few months. They’re really great shirts; we’re super excited about how they came out. And we couldn’t do the show without you, so thank you to everybody who supports us, and this is our way of thanking you, not just with a T-shirt, but we send… we offer all kinds of benefits throughout the year, including livestreams, ad-free MuggleCast, early access to episodes, two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, the MuggleCast Collectors Club… we just received our latest sticker designs; they look so great. Don’t miss out on all the benefits that we have at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What are Voldemort’s first words after he climbs out of the cauldron fully grown? And it’s “Robe me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because he’s nakey.

Andrew: Robe me, baby!

Eric: The cauldron did not provide clothes.

Andrew: [imitating Voldemort] “Robe me!”

Eric: Correct answers were submitted by Bill and Fleur’s Meet-Skrewt; Buff Daddy; Dedalus Diggle, Please Spare a Giggle; Dumbledore the Rizzler; Elizabeth K.; Hickory Diggory Dead… aw.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: That one hurts.

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: … I can touch you now, hey Alexa, play “Touch Me” by The Doors; JennPenn; Moldy Voldy’s “Did You Miss Me?” Comeback Tour; Portkey to the Future; Robbie the Rotund Rogue Robe Rigger; Stuck on Hogwarts the Forbidden Journey Ride SOS… hope you got off.

[Andrew gasps]

Eric: … The Brockdale Bridge… that’s a deep cut, and I love it. The Dark Lord (drip) shall rise (drip) again (drip); The longest sock of Dobby’s that was my sleeping bag… okay. And You’re a Quizzard, Harry. So thank you to everyone again for those lively and fun names. We bumped into the maker of Quizzitch, of course, the other day; Kyle was at LeakyCon this year. It was really good to hang out with him.

Andrew: That’s awesome.

Eric: And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What does the shadow of James Potter tell Harry he must do? Harry and James time next week. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on the MuggleCast website – maybe checking out transcripts, Wall of Fame, all that stuff – click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Yeah, like Eric said, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media, links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, Quizzitch, and more details about the show. And if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and we would love if you left us a review in Apple Podcasts or Spotify; that helps us spread the good word about the show. So that does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Going to go grab my robe and tuck in. Bye, everyone.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #664

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #664, Where’s the Skrewt Flute? (GOF Chapter 31, The Third Task)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, get ready for an a-maze-ing episode…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Ohhh.

Andrew: … as we take on the third task of the Triwizard Tournament. But first, we actually got some pretty big Harry Potter TV show news, and it is news that, while significant, it’s not exactly a shock because it had been rumored for a couple of months now. The Harry Potter TV show has officially signed on its showrunner and director, the latter of which will be directing at least multiple episodes. So the showrunner… and this is the person who’s supposed to carry the show from beginning to end; she’s like the boss, the big bad, if you will.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It is J.K…. no. It’s Francesca Gardner.

Eric: Oh, wow. Okay.

Laura: I was about to say, I think there are going to be some problems here.

Eric: Heart stop moment. Thank you for that.

Andrew: So both of these people are actually alums from the world of HBO’s Succession, which, when you think Harry Potter, you don’t necessarily think Succession.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But the show’s excellent, so that’s good news. Francesca’s background includes, like I said, Succession, but also His Dark Materials, the book to TV adaptation for HBO.

Laura: Heck yeah. That was excellent.

Micah: And she was a late add, right? When we were talking a little bit about some of the initial buzz around the show, I think a couple months ago, she was somebody that got pulled in a little bit late, right? So this was somebody I think they really wanted to work on the show, and it looks like they were able to get her.

Andrew: I also love it’s a woman running the show, honestly, in this male-dominated Hollywood. And of course, the Harry Potter movies were all directed by men, so it will be interesting to see if the storytelling changes at all with her at the helm. And then I mentioned a director; his name is Mark Mylod, and he’s worked on Game of Thrones, The Last of Us, Entourage, and, like I said, Succession. The chatter I’ve seen on social media from Hollywood gossipers and journalists is that these seem to be pretty good picks, and so far so good for me.

Eric: Yeah, I guess the next steps are the same as what I’m most interested in: the casting, and it’s going to be hard to strike lightning twice with the young kids. They’ve certainly done it once, so we’ll see.

Andrew: So now I think they will move to casting, now that they have the showrunner and the director for the first few episodes. So that is the update there, and we’ll continue to keep everybody posted as they work on the TV adaptation. Don’t forget; it’s probably not coming till 2026, so still a long ways away. Also, this year’s physical gift for Slug Club patrons has been revealed. Don’t forget; the clock is ticking. It is the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt. Micah is modeling it off right now on camera. Slug Club members, check your Patreon for the link to the order form and be sure to fill out the form by July 19. We have created a new version of the original MuggleCast Squares shirt, which was our very first shirt 19 years ago, and it now features the four of us in four colorful new silhouettes, and underneath, we have the MuggleCast mic bolt and “19 Years Later” to celebrate our own epilogue year. And if you aren’t a patron, now is a great time to join – honestly, the best time of year to join – because you can get the shirt, so pledge and fill out the form by July 19 to be eligible to receive the shirt. We won’t be on air next week, [laughs] so don’t forget in the next two weeks. That’s your homework assignment while we are off. And you will receive your shirt after you’ve been a patron for a minimum of three months. And in addition, you’ll get sweet benefits, like access to our monthly hangouts with the four MuggleCasters, two new bonus MuggleCast installments each month, ad-free MuggleCast, access to our planning docs, access to our recording studio every Thursday, and much more. And thank you everybody who supports us on Patreon; we could not do this without you, so your support there is greatly appreciated.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, let’s jump into Chapter by Chapter, and this week, we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 31, “The Third Task,” and we begin – like we always do – with our seven-word summary. Here we go.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: Riddles…

Laura: … guard…

Micah: … the…

Andrew: …misleading…

Micah: … way…

Laura: … to…

Eric: … victory.

Andrew: Ooh, love it. Well done, y’all.

Laura: Well done.

Eric: Yeah, I like the idea of riddles because Harry has to get past one riddle and inadvertently finds himself in front of another Riddle.

Laura: That…

Micah: Way to set us up for success with that first word, Eric.

Eric: Cheers.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, so we are going to talk about the third task of the Triwizard Tournament, and I wanted to start with a section, though, on family matters. And we get Harry at Hogwarts receiving Mrs. Weasley, receiving Bill Weasley, but that’s not the only family that plays a role here in the lead up to the third task. Ron and Hermione are helping Harry; Sirius is corresponding with Harry. And then, of course, we get a little bit of some additional family banter as other family members of Triwizard champions arrive to Hogwarts. But let’s start with Ron and Hermione. Of course, this is coming off the Pensieve chapter; there’s been a huge info dump by Harry to Ron and Hermione about everything that went on in Dumbledore’s office, minus, of course, the status of Neville’s parents. But Ron and Hermione are all about making sure that Harry is going to be successful in the third task, and it’s really nice to see them show up as friends.

Eric: This is really – as it’s said – the first task that Harry feels fully prepared for. It’s getting to the point where he can’t feel very apprehensive, because he’s like, “Well, I kind of know what I’ve got to know.” He’s remembered all the spells; he’s figured out how to do them. Hermione has come through with what ends up being, I think, the MVP spell this chapter, which is a Four-Point Spell, something that gets your wand to point north just like a compass. It ends up being the entire way Harry is able to navigate the maze. She just found it in an old book; they are not teaching this anywhere else, apparently. It’s actually one of the few English language spells as well; all it is is “Point Me.” There’s no Latin incantation.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: This was cool. I forgot about this.

Eric: Yeah, me too.

Laura: Well, and now I guess we all know that in order to get to the center of a maze, you just go northwest, right?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Or the maze? That maze? Maybe others, it would be a different direction.

Micah: You’re also getting lost all the time, too, and you get flipped upside down, so does that spell really help you at the end of the day?

Eric: Well, I think it can just orient you.

Andrew: To at least get your bearings, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, that’s exactly it. So you can make a left and then a right, and then another left and then another right, but that cancels it out, so you can kind of… it makes sense to me. I’m a non-directionally challenged person; I pride myself on being able to set foot in Chicago and know where to get places, but the compass is very useful.

Laura: Harry probably could have used some breadcrumbs or something to leave a trail so that if he ended up going back the way he came, he would at least know. But then the Skrewts might have eaten the breadcrumbs, so what are you going to do?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, they’re big fans of bread. They’re big fans.

Micah: They’re more interested in human flesh than breadcrumbs, but…

Eric: Wow. [laughs] I bet that’s true.

Andrew: Also, a bit of foreshadowing goes on in this area because the trio are working together and Ron says that this is good training for when they are all Aurors.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Eric: Definitely foreshadowing it. And yeah, they’re really warping into very competent wizards. These jinxes are… we actually end up seeing them use a number of these jinxes next year, at the end of next year in the Ministry against some Death Eaters, and they get them out of trouble there. So these are really, really good spells. Again, Harry just really is quite prepared, and it feels good.

Micah: And you could also consider this as a precursor to Dumbledore’s Army, right? The way that they are training in this particular chapter for the third task. But as mentioned, Ron and Hermione are not the only ones who are looking to help out Harry; Sirius is trying to do his best from afar, and he’s telling Harry, “Ignore anything outside of Hogwarts.” And this reminds me when we were talking about Sirius in a previous chapter. He’s well-intentioned, but Harry is 14 years old; his mind is going to be racing in a million and one different directions.

Eric: I think you need that coach to keep you focused, though, right? It’s like, these are daily letters from Sirius; I just think it feels good to have somebody care for him. And I just think it’s extremely cute that all the letters from Sirius are marked with a muddy paw print…

Andrew: Aww, yeah.

Eric: … which is just the most adorable thing I think I’ve ever seen. Also, Harry better save these letters; they’ll be worth something in about a year and a half.

Andrew: [laughs] Is the signature…? I mean, I know signatures go up after somebody dies, but Sirius?

Eric: I just think the value, yeah, of the letters. I hope he’s not just discarding.

Andrew: Well, I guess SiriusBlack423@aol.com would think that.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I just love the idea of Sirius being like a boxing coach, though; like before Harry is about to jump into the ring, he’s getting a pep talk and all that.

Micah: I mean, if Harry ignores Sirius’s gifts generally, why would he keep any letters from him? Is that too soon?

Eric: It might’ve been.

Laura: Well, it’s certainly not brought up that Harry keeps them in the future. You would think if he had them, they would come up at some point, like he’d be shuffling through his trunk and he would find those muddy paw print letters from Sirius. But maybe Harry is just not materialistic.

Eric: [laughs] Harry has really been working on clearing his feng shui.

Laura: Right?

Micah: He’s not a hoarder.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Sirius, on the other hand…

Eric: Well, the other aspect is if somebody found it and worked out that it was Sirius, they’d probably maybe be able to use it. Maybe Harry is intentionally destroying them right after he reads them.

Laura: Maybe, yeah.

Micah: Well, as if Harry didn’t have enough to worry about heading into the third task, he gets hit with a Rita Skeeter hit piece, and she paints him as this troubled attention-seeking young man who lacks just all credibility. And I’m wondering, does this kind of story help to substantiate the way the Ministry starts to paint Harry in Order of the Phoenix? This is actual written text that they can go back to and say, “Look, as early as last year, Harry was out of control.”

Eric: Rita Skeeter has done the Daily Prophet such a huge favor with this. She couldn’t possibly know it, necessarily; she doesn’t know what’s happening at the end of the evening. But yeah, you would think that you… they couldn’t have planned a better time for this to come out. But one thing that I find so maddening – and I’m sure this is by design – is that all of the content of that article plays on the usual prejudices and fears to basically discredit Harry. Draco Malfoy is the primary source that Skeeter is using. We already know – and it’s not difficult to find out – that he’s Harry’s sworn enemy, so that’s not objectivity, hello. And also, things like his friendship with werewolves, plural – yeah, right. It was Remus Lupin, their previous teacher. Giants – it’s Hagrid, come on, but see previous article. And this is the debut where everyone figures out worldwide that Harry is a Parselmouth, and that carries some specific negative vibes. But it’s just a shame to see that Skeeter is… she has no real content on Harry, and so she’s trying really hard to stoke public outrage or outcry, and even go so far as to suggest he shouldn’t be at Hogwarts at all.

Andrew: I do wonder if it’s possible that Fudge actually kind of did work with Rita on this, because this comes right after Harry stood up to him in the previous chapter. Remember, Fudge was embarrassed when Harry said Madame Maxine couldn’t hide if she were to commit a crime, and Fudge wasn’t happy about that remark. Think he was a little embarrassed, it said. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Fudge was willing to put some bad stuff about Harry into the Daily Prophet, or certainly wouldn’t be mad about it, seeing it published there, even if he didn’t know about it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, as we’ve established before, Fudge is the kind of guy who is just looking for optics opportunities to make himself look better and to not create troubled, fraught times for the Ministry that he’s currently leading. Joke’s on him, though; this is not going to go well. [laughs]

Eric: Well, and joke’s on him again because despite his reservations – very vocal – about Madame Maxime, Dumbledore or whoever’s in charge of seating has placed Fudge next to Madame Maxime at the last dinner before task three, and Fudge looks really upset about it.

Micah: Well, it would have been Percy, right? Fudge is sitting in for Percy.

Eric: Deniability.

Micah: That’s just where Percy happened to be seated when Dumbledore planned this three months ago.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Do we think Dumbledore plans anything that far in advance, apart from Horcrux hunting? I just don’t think he’s that organized of a guy.

Eric: But would he do anything to stop it? [laughs] No.

Laura: No, I agree with that wholeheartedly. And actually, I think it’s kind of mean to Madame Maxime to make her sit next to Fudge.

Eric: Well, right.

Micah: Well, is she even aware of the accusations, though? She may not be.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s possible.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. The important thing, though, is… I mean, it is shown that she doesn’t seem to be having a great time either. I think she’s looking down the whole dinner, so he probably said one thing and it probably related to her blood status.

Micah: I thought it was more to do with Hagrid than Fudge.

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I mean, Hagrid is definitely either trying to get her attention or trying to say something, it’s said, but I can’t really read between the lines there about what’s going on.

Laura: Yeah. Well, it does say that her eyes were bloodshot or something. I thought she’d been crying or something like that.

Micah: I could see Dumbledore just looking down the table at Fudge, or walking by in front of him and being like, “How’s your dinner tonight, Cornelius?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Right.

Micah: Little bit of sass in his voice.

Laura: Oh, 100%.

Micah: But I really do agree; I do think this is a piece that Fudge can look back on, especially as we get towards the beginning of Order of the Phoenix with everything that happens in Little Whinging, and knowing how he really starts to feel towards Harry and Dumbledore at the beginning part of that book. Well, we know how Mrs. Weasley has been taking to certain articles by Rita Skeeter, but she’s not the only one that seems to be using them as ammunition against Harry. Amos Diggory also happens to say a few unkind words in Harry’s direction. I’m curious, though, does he get a little bit of a mulligan because he’s at Hogwarts to support his son? What do you guys think?

Laura: He’s bullying a 14-year-old.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: A 14-year-old who’s competing against his son. So I think he lays it on a little too thick, personally, but I also understand… I mean, this reminds me of being a really bad soccer player in Little League and witnessing how serious the parents take it. They take their kids’ games very seriously…

Micah: More than the kids do.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And I guess that’s kind of my point; he’s bringing the aggressiveness we probably should be seeing from Cedric. But yeah, I think he just needs to bring it down a notch.

Laura: This is how Amos has always been, though. Remember when we first met him earlier in the book and he was saying something about, “Oh, yeah, Ced, you beating Harry Potter at Quidditch; that’ll be a story for the grandkids,” and Cedric tries to say, “Well, it didn’t really count, because Harry fell off his broom,” and Amos was like, “Nonsense, you still won, didn’t you?” And it was like, “What are you doing, man? You’re living vicariously through your teenager?” That’s what’s happening.

Eric: But it gets to the point where Molly Weasley steps in, too, and says to Amos, “Oh, surely you don’t believe Rita Skeeter, do you?” And he is shut down, but he’s still fuming to the point where his wife… he’s about to rebut even Mrs. Weasley, and his wife – whoever she is – Mrs. Diggory has to pull Amos away. I feel bad for his wife. I just think despite Cedric’s damage control, Amos goes too far.

Micah: He’s a proud parent. I think the point about him living vicariously through Cedric is definitely a good one. And let’s not forget, Harry is four years Cedric’s junior, right? And Harry has only been playing Quidditch for three years at the time that Cedric has supposedly bested him, so you know what? Yeah, way to beat up on the little kid, Ced.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Right.

Eric: Yeah, and they’re tied, though, too, for points, Harry and Cedric are. They get to go in the maze tonight first together. That should also tell Amos what a sincere competitor, and what an apt competitor, Harry is.

Laura: Since we brought up Mrs. Weasley for a moment there in talking about her defense of Harry and pushing back against Amos and saying, “You know that Rita Skeeter just likes to make everyone’s life hell working at the Ministry; you should know better,” I think it’s really funny that she can recognize this about Rita Skeeter when it comes to Harry, but not when it comes to Hermione. [laughs]

Eric: It’s so sad. And lucky that Harry gets a weird inkling to, out of nowhere in the middle of silence… it’s that meme, everyone: just nothing. Harry: “By the way, Mrs. Weasley, Hermione is not my girlfriend.” She’s like, “Oh, yep! Nobody said she was!”

Laura: Right. She’s like, “Duh, I knew that.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “Who was thinking that? I wasn’t thinking that. You were thinking that?” So it’s just ridiculous, though, because then Molly Weasley behaves so much better toward Hermione the rest of that day and then, presumably, forever. But this goes to show… I think it’s one of the most important lessons in the Harry Potter books that is applicable to our present day and age. People believe the written word, and the written word holds weight. Even adults who are trying not to believe what’s in print still end up believing parts or some of what they read because it’s printed. This is why it’s so important to have ethics in journalism and to have correct information be published, because you know what you’re doing. People are reading this and really believing that that’s the way things are. And with Rita Skeeter, she is on a personal vendetta to discredit the trio, and we see how it has real consequences in the future.

Andrew: I think a part of what’s at play here, too, is that the Daily Prophet is a very established publication. This isn’t some new media outlet. I mean, all these witches and wizards grew up reading this newspaper, presumably, or at least being aware of it. They trust it. They’ve learned to trust it over the decades, whether or not it’s becoming increasingly corrupt.

Micah: For me, the disappointing piece, though, is Hermione is somebody who Mrs. Weasley has come to know for three years at this point, somebody who is one of Ron and Harry’s best friends at school, and the fact that she would just flip the switch that easily and believe something that Rita has to say in an article… this may be a conversation for another time, but I wonder maybe Ron was sending some letters back home about his frustration around the Yule Ball; maybe that helped to light the fire a little bit.

Eric: Maybe. I like the idea that Ron inadvertently made Molly Weasley worse, but she’s been feeling this way since before the Yule Ball, because at Christmas didn’t Hermione not get a sweater?

Micah: It was significantly smaller. Or no, that was the Easter egg.

Laura: That was the egg, yeah.

Eric: But I mean, Molly has been fuming about this for six months. You know what? I’ve decided Amos Diggory is not the most frustrating parent in this chapter; it’s actually Molly Weasley.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Fair enough.

Eric: She’s 14! Get over yourself! Her protecting Harry instinct is way out of line here.

Micah: Hermione does feel like she finally has some answers when it comes to Rita Skeeter, so hopefully all of this nonsense that’s been going on throughout the fourth year is finally going to come to an end, and I think we might have Draco to thank for it. Or maybe we have Harry to thank for it with an assist from Draco, or Draco to thank for it with an assist from Harry, depending on how you want to look at it. But we’ll take a quick break and discuss that when we come back.

[Ad break]

Micah: Do we think that Hermione finally has Rita figured out?

Andrew: Certainly seems like it.

Eric: Rita herself says, “I was there. I witnessed the Divination class where Harry fainted.” And that is really what I think… well, that and Harry keeping saying “bugged,” and then witnessing Draco – to your point, Micah – talking to his hand, all of it. But especially Rita herself, I think, shoots herself in the… I want to say foot, but would a bug have…? I guess, just… she shoots herself in the buggy part of the leg…

Andrew: The wing.

Eric: … by saying that. She’s gone too far, she’s gotten too confident, I think.

Laura: Yeah, and I think we see Hermione putting the pieces together as well, because at one point she runs her fingers through her hair, which makes me think she’s thinking about when they were at the lake at the second task and the beetle was in her hair. She also puts her hand up to her mouth like a walkie talkie, similar to what Draco did, so she’s clearly starting to connect the dots. So it’s off to the library, as every brilliant Hermione moment must include.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, and just the way that whole passage is written, you can tell she’s having this very unique, triumphant almost moment. She’s gazing into space, and she says, even, she thinks she knows what’s going on for real.

Micah: Yeah. Once again, similar to Book 2, Hermione is solving the mystery that’s going on at Hogwarts. Let’s talk a little bit more about Molly and Bill showing up to support Harry for the third task. Eric, this was your Quizzitch question last week. There’s a few other Weasleys that are noticeably missing from this contingent, but it is nice to see the support, right? This is the family that Harry has been adopted into over the course of the series. Are we surprised, though, that Harry is so surprised? I mean, Harry seems shocked that it’s the Weasleys that are there. He thinks it’s going to be the Dursleys somewhere in the back of his mind, but why in the world would the Dursleys come to Hogwarts?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I mean, that’s got to be at the absolute… that’s not even on their list of places to visit.

Eric: He’s just used to thinking he has nobody that would come and see him for this, and so when Ron’s family steps in, it’s a big move. They haven’t done this before for him in this way.

Laura: Yeah. And this was actually kind of sad to me reading it, because whether Harry likes it or not, the Dursleys are the only living blood relatives that he has, and had they actually treated him well and raised him as a son, I’m sure he would have loved to have had them there at Hogwarts supporting him. So if somebody says, “Your family is here to support you,” to Eric’s point, Harry’s default is going to think, “My family? Well, I don’t see the ones I have wanting to come here.” But there’s some inner child trauma there, too, because as a kid, he probably wanted the Dursleys to like him. He probably didn’t understand.

Andrew: And is it that crazy of an idea for the Dursleys to come when Petunia herself as a child wanted to visit Hogwarts?

Micah: No.

Andrew: Potentially they did receive an invitation to Hogwarts for the third task. By the way, this reminds me of the episode of shows like Survivor where they get the letters from the family and it’s all emotional. This happens on Drag Race too.

Micah: Well, back in the day, they used to actually have the family members come, but I think it got too expensive. [laughs] So they just did the letters.

Andrew: Yeah, no room in the budget anymore. [laughs] “Here’s a letter.”

Micah: But I’m so glad you asked that, Andrew. Let’s do a “What if?” What if the Dursleys did come to Hogwarts? How would that have played out?

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Andrew: Well, Vernon would have hated every second of it, of course.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: And Petunia would have acted like she hated it, but deep down, you know she’s enjoying the experience, finally getting to check out Hogwarts for herself. And she can go up to Dumbledore and be like, “Well, guess who’s finally at Hogwarts, bitch?”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Just like that. He would say it just like that. Dudley would never leave the Great Hall. Three square meals of Hogwarts cooking, he would be hooked.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: What? I would too!

Andrew: Yeah, of course!

Eric: I mean, this is not saying anything other than truly anyone would be at this.

Andrew: It’s all free. It’s not like coming to New York City to visit your child and you’ve got to pay for the meals. This is presumably free.

Eric: No, that’s a great point. But yeah, I think Petunia is the one to watch. Vernon would absolutely hate it, but as we’ve seen in the first chapter of the first book, his priority is his wife’s wellbeing mentally. He would be in crisis mode trying to make sure that he could read her emotions and cater to her needs more than his own. And Petunia, gosh, if she showed up, this would really be that coming to Hogwarts moment. Presumably she didn’t come to support Lily in anything; it would never have been up offered to her as a Muggle, so it’s kind of wild to think about.

Laura: I wonder if the Dursleys might be tempted to come to this if Dumbledore sent them a letter saying, “Hey, Harry is a school champion, he’s participating in these tasks, the third one is coming up, and he might die.”

Eric: He might die.

Laura: “So… do you want to come?”

Andrew: They’d be like, “Ooh, I get to watch him die? Now that is something I’m interested in witnessing.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: “PS: Remember my last.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But yeah, it certainly would be an interesting scenario to watch play out and the Dursleys interact with other family members of the other champions and other students at Hogwarts. It was nice to see Krum’s parents there. The Diggorys, we already mentioned. And obviously, Fleur, her sister. Eric, she was there again. She made another appearance.

Eric: Gabrielle, yeah.

Micah: She’s safe. She made it out of the lake.

Eric: They flew her there again. Along with Krum’s parents, which, by the way, why aren’t one of them his prizes to get from the bottom of the lake? They exist.

Laura: They said no.

Micah: Budget. They only had budget to bring them in for the third task. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I think what Laura just said; they said no. I mean, the people who were put underwater were told what was going to happen, we found out, and…

Eric: So they were like, “No, we won’t do it. Just use a Hogwarts girl instead of us.”

Andrew: “Use a Hogwarts girl.”

Eric: “Instead of us, our grown wizard adult parents, you figure it out.”

Andrew: I don’t want to get into that again; I’m just saying that they put their foot down, as should everybody else have done. [laughs]

Eric: Oh yeah, yeah. Okay, that works.

Micah: So Harry is able to really enjoy the day, and I think this was set up well, right? From a mental health perspective before having to go into the third task, at least for Harry. I’m sure Cedric Diggory’s father was just hounding him all day about how he was going to perform in the third task. But for Harry, it’s just a really nice moment to be able to spend this time with Molly and with Bill, to walk around the Hogwarts grounds, to eat with them… it’s something he just hasn’t really had in his life at all, and I think that that’s really just… it’s a nice moment for him before things really start to go off the rails.

Laura: Yeah, it’s too good to last.

Micah: One of the things I just wanted to call out was that it seems like Molly and Bill haven’t been back to Hogwarts since they graduated. What’s curious to me, though, and I don’t know – I think, Laura, you have a good question here as to whether or not Hogwarts actually has graduations – but Molly has had three sons who would have graduated within the very recent past, so it’s curious that she’s walking around and observing things for the first time in a long time. Thinking about the Whomping Willow; she references that that wasn’t there when she went to Hogwarts.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, she was technically at Hogwarts when… what, at the end of Chamber? When she was there to figure out what happened with Ginny.

Laura: That’s true. But she had bigger fish to fry at that point, so…

Eric: Yeah, that wasn’t a leisurely walk across the lake. But yeah, it’s wild.

Andrew: I guess we could argue that this confirms they don’t have graduations at Hogwarts if Molly hasn’t been there, despite three kids now leaving the school. But that seems very odd; I’m surprised that there wouldn’t be a graduation. All they get at the end of the year is funerals. That’s really sad.

Laura: Yeah, that’s a bummer.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I mean, you can also win the House Cup, so there’s that? [laughs] Something that I noted that I thought was really funny is Molly is talking about her experiences at Hogwarts, and she talks about how the Fat Lady kind of chewed her out when she went on a late night stroll with Arthur until 4:00 a.m. when they were at school.

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: And when I read this, I was like, “I see you, girl.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Late night stroll.

Andrew: Well, also, Molly is always “Abide by the rules, be good,” and this seems a little bad. I mean, Molly was younger, so there’s that, but…

Laura: She had a twinkle in her eye, though, when she said it. [laughs]

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Aw, she’s reminiscing. That’s really sweet.

Micah: And she didn’t mind getting caught either. She references what the caretaker back then would have done to her, right? Apollyon Pringle, the precursor, as far as we know, to Argus Filch.

Eric: Right.

Micah: It seems like he may have been the one to implement those more barbaric tactics that Filch really lusts for because it’s pretty graphic what Molly says would have been done to her had she been caught.

Laura: Doesn’t she say Arthur still has the scars or something? Because he did get caught.

Micah: Where?

Laura: [laughs] I don’t know. Unclear.

Eric: On his feet from all that strolling.

Andrew: On his rubber duck. Jumping back to graduations real quick, I remembered Rowling actually did say at one point outside of the books that there are graduations. This came up in the Pottercast interview. Those who are graduating take the boats away from the school after graduating.

Laura: Oh, that’s right.

Andrew: So there’s that full circle moment. So yes, apparently there is… though, I guess let’s play this out further: Molly has been near Hogwarts to watch them graduate, but watches from the other side of the lake, maybe. From the Hogwarts Express, let’s say? From the station?

Eric: Fair enough.

Laura: Maybe. But is that their graduation ceremony? Just getting in a boat?

Andrew: Yeah, well, the music plays. [sings “Pomp & Circumstance”]

Laura: [laughs] I’m just thinking if there are graduations, I feel so bad for the graduating classes in Goblet, Order of the Phoenix, and Half-Blood Prince. I mean, also Deathly Hallows. How are you going to have graduations those four years? I bet they canceled them.

Andrew: Well, the unique twists of the graduation ceremonies those years is that in addition to you going across the lake, so too does the casket of the person who died that year or the people who died that year.

Eric: Right.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m also thinking that the graduation song, the owls are also hooting it, so it’s like… [hoots “Pomp & Circumstance”]

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Wasn’t that Vitamin C?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Oh, yeah.

Eric: It’s hard to fit the same people in boats as well, the same amount of people in the boats. They’ve grown quite a bit.

Andrew: Graduation (Friends Forever). [sings] “All the times when… Harry got in trouble…”

Micah: Graduating class of 2000, that was our big song. I think that’s what it was written for, actually.

Laura: It was, yeah.

Micah: All right, let’s talk about the maze. After Harry spends the afternoon strolling around with Molly and Bill and gets a nice dinner, it’s time to go down to the Quidditch pitch, which has been transformed into this really scary, eerie maze. And there’s not as much pomp and circumstance – speaking of that – as there was in the movie. I was expecting a little bit more, but it’s just like, “Okay, everybody’s here? In you go.” I was reading up a little bit on this task, and I wanted to ask the question: Do we feel like this task in particular is the ultimate test of self-discovery? Does it show that Harry is able to play with the big boys and girls? Or is he just benefiting from the aid of a Death Eater in disguise?

Laura: So not to downplay the things that Harry encounters in the maze – because there are some pretty dangerous moments, and it’s not to say nothing happens – but he spends a shocking amount of time just walking around in the dark, and it made me wonder if Fakey was potentially removing obstacles from Harry’s path while he was patrolling the perimeter of the maze, because remember, he was one of the few people doing that. We know that’s how he gets Krum later. So it just made me wonder if he was maybe trying to grease the wheels a little bit for Harry.

Eric: It’s possible, but I mean, the hedges are 20 feet tall; that’s huge. So if you really think about it, the maze doesn’t need to be alive the way that it is in the movie in order to be imposing. And like I said, you could actually get lost; it doesn’t take something that large or confusing to actually just wind up all turned around. So I would say… my inclination is that there really weren’t many more obstacles than what they planned. To your point, Laura, the ones that are in there, though, are very dangerous. They’re very, very tough, actually. Any one of them I could see knocking a grown wizard out.

Andrew: Yeah, I think Fakey… I like this idea, Laura. I think he has to pull the strings a little bit, but not too much to the point where Harry is on his guard even further, because then he’s like, “This is too easy; something weird is going on,” and then he’s bracing for something bigger, and then maybe he becomes even more suspicious. So I think it’s just kind of finding that line where he’s helping him, but not too much.

Laura: Yeah. Gets real desperate at the end with Krum, I guess, and is like, “Ah, we gotta take out Diggory now.” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. The task also revealed that Harry cares more about people than he does the Triwizard Tournament. He’s looking out for Cedric; he’s concerned about Fleur. That was a really nice character moment from Harry as well.

Eric: Yeah, and as well as Harry struggling with, “Oh, I guess I’m that much closer to victory,” there’s a part of him that is keeping track of people and caring about his classmates or fellow champions, but then another part that’s like, “Ooh,” when he sees the spark go up or something. He’s like, “Oh, somebody’s out of the game; I have one less competitor,” and it’s just such an… I think it’s written in a really realistic way of how your mind considers all the angles there.

Andrew: So let’s talk about the enemies that Harry faces, and we’ll go in order here: the Dementor.

Laura: I just love the connection to Prisoner of Azkaban here, and the image of the Dementor tripping over its cloak.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And keep in mind, if Harry hadn’t had the previous year’s experience… the Dementor alone – well, it’s a Boggart – but the Dementor alone could have really caused him a lot of trouble. And in fact, I think a Boggart is so overpowered because it takes the position – the size and shape – of your exact worst fear, so no matter what, you’re guaranteed a difficult obstacle in having a Boggart there. So I think it’s brilliant, actually, that this is what’s in the maze.

Andrew: The next thing Harry faces is the upside down, not to be confused with the Upside Down in the Stranger Things TV series. This reminds me of like in a video game, actually, where sometimes you get flipped upside down, or your controller suddenly starts working backwards. I was like, “Oh, I hate when that happens.”

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, there’s actually a part – I’m trying to think because I don’t want to give spoilers – there is a part in Hogwarts Legacy where this can happen.

Andrew: Huh. Okay.

Laura: And I don’t know, because I know that the extra mission came out, or the PS5 exclusive mission came out…

Eric: Oh, it did. It did now. Yeah, I played it.

Laura: Yeah. And there is a moment in there where this happens, and it’s very disorienting.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It is extremely… yeah. How does Harry get out of this, by the way? Is it just that he has to let go, and then eventually…? Because he’s hanging and he’s going to fall to the bottomless stars, but then something with his foot moves, and then he’s all of a sudden righted?

Andrew: He just had to center himself mentally, I think, and just push through the confusion. That’s how I read it.

Eric: As a kid, I would definitely think for long amounts of time, like, “What would happen if the ceiling were the floor,” right? Indoors, though. I would never go outside. But I always thought that would be kind of cool.

Micah: So the next creature – or kind of sub task within the task that Harry faces – is the Blast-Ended Skrewt.

Andrew: So Hagrid bred the Blast-Ended Skrewts. Did Hagrid…? Am I forgetting something? Did Hagrid not give Harry any tips for fighting these things? They’re good buds. [laughs] Come on, man.

Laura: He did teach them how to walk the Skrewts on leashes, so maybe he should have given Harry a leash to go into the maze with.

Eric: I don’t think Hagrid knows how to subdue these things. He’s bred them with absolutely no care or restriction or restraint at all.

Andrew: I’m being very generous, aren’t I? You would just think there’s some sort of kill switch. Like, what’s the flute for the Blast-Ended Skrewt? That almost rhymes, actually.

Micah: That rhymed. It does. It’s definitely troubling, though, too, that they would have just cleared this creature who nobody knows anything about; forget about Hagrid.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: This is a illegally cross-bred creature that is… who knows how much larger it can grow? It might just be based on the number of humans it consumes.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And it’s just in the maze. So to your point, who knows if anybody knows how to actually subdue it? It’s horrifying that this thing is in the maze.

Andrew: Nobody knows. Nobody knows how to subdue it.

Eric: I mean, Harry’s strategy is – it works the same for the Acromantula – look for the soft spot on its belly. But it doesn’t kill it; it just kind of gets it out of the…

Micah: Stuns it, yeah. Well, where most creatures are vulnerable.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Harry next comes upon Krum and Cedric; he actually hears Cedric crying out and forces himself through a portion of the maze in order to get over to the two of them. And we know Harry has a saving people thing, right, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, he definitely does. And I have to think that Moody hoped that Harry would not encounter this; I think he was trying to really just do away with any and all obstacles at this point so Harry would just make it to the center of the maze. He also knows Harry is a decent person and would help Cedric if he came across this, so the fact that Harry ended up intervening was not according to plan, I think.

Micah: No, and it potentially puts Harry in danger as well.

Eric: Yeah, right. Moody definitely wouldn’t have wanted that. His cursed Krum is for Cedric only.

Micah: And as we know, Harry comes to the aid of Cedric, and the two of them part ways here. It’s not until later on that they come back together. But Harry ends up saving Cedric from Krum, and presumably they send up red sparks to have Krum removed from the maze.

Eric: Yeah, the interaction between Harry and Krum here is really special. This whole chapter is very meaningful. You see the pain in Cedric’s eyes about what had just happened to him and his hesitance to send up red sparks, but the desire to get Krum out of the maze for presumed cheating. Harry and Cedric both relate to each other on “I didn’t think Krum was a bad guy. It’s very interesting that just happened to us.” And if given more time, they would have figured something out.

Micah: I think that’s important because it goes back to the question at the top about self-discovery, and I think what we come to realize as readers is that Harry cares more about people than he does about this particular tournament, and you see that with Fleur when he hears her crying out. And he was obviously in a little bit of a challenging position when that happened, because he was not long after there turned upside down. But he does go to save Cedric, right? He has a saving people problem, if we want to call it that.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, and major shout-out to HedwigsTheme, by the way, for quoting Moody from the later chapter – Fakey. He actually says, “You had an easier time of it than you should have in the maze tonight… I was patrolling around it, able to see through the outer hedges, able to curse many obstacles out of your way. I Stunned Fleur Delacour as she passed. I put the Imperius Curse on Krum.” So actually, he took out half the champions, Fakey himself.

Andrew: [whispers] Monster.

Eric: Not upside down dust or anything.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And you could say three quarters of the champions, because if not under the Imperius Curse, Krum would not have used Crucio on Cedric.

Eric: That’s exactly it. And without Moody there – or Fakey there – it wouldn’t even be a Portkey that they were going for.

Micah: And it’s natural progression, right? Imperio, Crucio, and what’s coming in the next chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Ohhh.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Nice. Okay.

Laura: Love that.

Micah: Well, the next thing that we encounter is one we’ve never seen before in this series, and it has a riddle for us. But luckily, we have a few moments to think about what the answer to that riddle is, and we’ll be right back after this.

[Ad break]

Micah: So let’s talk about the sphinx, and I thought, having managed the name origin section of MuggleNet many, many, many, many, many years ago…

Eric: Throwback.

Micah: … wanted to talk about the origin of the sphinx, and it’s most famous in legend and was said to have terrorized people by demanding the answer to a riddle that was taught to the sphinx by the Muses, and it devoured a man each time the riddle was answered incorrectly. And so this is a little bit of a play on that, right? We see it in Egyptian mythology, we see it in Greek mythology, the sphinx, and we know that J.K. Rowling took very much from mythology in her writing. And with all this conversation about how much Harry was aided in his course to get through this task, does Harry actually solve it?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or was he always going to get a free pass from the sphinx, no matter what his answer was?

Laura: Ohh.

Micah: Because if Moody hoodwinked many other things in this maze – and did have his eye on Harry, presumably, let’s say, 95% of the time – why did he not… why not the sphinx too?

Eric: I would argue that the sphinx is 100% not messed with because Cedric did not come this way, and Cedric still winds up… they meet up in the future next to the cup, so there is a way around the sphinx. And the sphinx says to Harry, “You can back away.”

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: So if this were clearly the only path to the cup, I would say Moody would have had to do something to it, but because it’s not the only path to the cup, maybe this is one he missed. The problem with… I read this when I was 14 for the first time and I could not figure out this riddle, and honestly, it wasn’t until many years later…

Andrew: Me neither. Well, even in present day. [laughs] I didn’t try that hard, though.

Eric: Truly, I was 31 and started dating Meg and she explained it to me. But I didn’t understand at all how the thing… I thought the thing you wouldn’t want to kiss is a Dementor, and I was kind of hung up on that. It all relies on, I guess, knowing that when you say “um,” the Brits spell it “er,” E-R. That’s a, er… is kind of “er” versus “um,” U-M.

Andrew: And he gets the beginning and the end, but not the middle, right? Something like that.

Eric: Yeah, spy-er. “Oh, spider!”

Andrew: Yeah, so you can kind of put the pieces together from there.

Eric: Harry gets, like, 66% of the way there.

Laura: It’s context clues.

Andrew: And that could be enough. Think of a Wheel of Fortune puzzle. If you got the start and the end, you could probably guess the middle.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Or Wordle.

Eric: I was going to say, what’s harder, this or Connections?

Andrew: Ugh, Connections.

Micah: So I thought it’d be good just to read the riddle that the sphinx gives to Harry, and it says,

“First think of the person who lives in disguise,
Who deals in secrets and tells naught but lies.
Next, tell me what’s always the last thing to mend,
The middle of middle and end of the end?
And finally give me the sound often heard
During the search for a hard-to-find word.
Now string them together, and answer me this,
Which creature would you be unwilling to kiss?”

The reason why I wanted to bring it up is once we do get the answer, spy-d-er, right? But spider is not spelled the way that we are accustomed to, right? Because at least in reference to this riddle, “spi” is S-P-Y. And we can go into a lot of different theories about who’s the spy here, but there was a long standing one that this riddle answer was actually a reference to Snape.

Laura: I do remember that.

Andrew: While the debate was still going on about whether he’s good or bad? Interesting.

Micah: Now, the real spider shows up right after this.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Right, yes! There is actually a spider in here, an Acromantula, a big one.

Micah: So it’s like, “Congrats for getting it right; now you can get eaten by an Acromantula.”

Andrew: I assume that was the intention; it was kind of teasing what was about to come. So you solve the riddle, you get to go through, and you also get a brief heads-up about what you’re going to encounter next.

Eric: Maybe the proper way to deal with the big spider is to kiss it.

Andrew: Ooh. Don’t ask Ron to do that. He would never win.

Eric: Maybe it’s bewitched that if you kiss it, it… I don’t know, gets your number and walks away.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry nearly dies during the confrontation, and in fact, Harry and Cedric both nearly get wiped out by this thing. It’s massive. It’s horrible. That’s why, like, yeah, there’s only a few obstacles, but each and every one of them can and probably would kill you. I’m just blown away again by Harry’s resilience and his trying every little thing under the sun. You know what works, though? Harry casts Expelliarmus and it works.

Micah: Of course it works.

Eric: It works! Why does it work?

Laura: It’s his signature spell. [laughs]

Eric: The spider doesn’t have a wand! It drops him when it’s holding him with multiple arms.

Laura: Well, I think he cast it against the spider’s pincers, right? And I guess that would be the spider’s equivalent of a weapon.

Eric: I mean, if the pincers then flew off, that would be wild. But I think it’s just enough to jilt it. I can’t tell whether I’m really, really mad or really impressed that it works this time for Harry.

Micah: I was hoping to see the Ford Anglia just stroll in.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Can you imagine?

Andrew: Oh, that would’ve been cool.

Eric: That spider-killing Anglia. [laughs]

Laura: Honestly, the Ford Anglia should have totally been in the maze. Why not? We know it’s out in the forest.

Eric: That rogue element that helps take you up over a couple of walls at a time.

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: But this is a full circle moment, right? Because it’s Cedric who comes to Harry’s aid when he’s facing the Acromantula, just like Harry came to Cedric’s aid earlier on in the task with Krum. And they put aside their differences for the greater good of Hogwarts – it’s actually a really longwinded conversation that could have taken much less time – and decide that together they will claim the Triwizard cup and enjoy an all-expense paid vacation to Little Hangleton…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Woohoo!

Micah: Return airfare currently unavailable.

Laura: Womp-womp. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. So Moody – Fakey – could not have predicted this…

Micah: No.

Andrew: … and this is maybe his big flaw in the plan, though he might not care that Cedric is going to get killed. He didn’t predict a scenario in which they would decide to take it together. It’s too selfless, it’s too friendly, it’s too… for Hogwarts! They wanted to win it together because they’re both Hogwarts students.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, the thing is, I think that Fakey actually would care about Cedric going because wasn’t the plan Harry was going to go to Little Hangleton, Voldemort was going to kill him, they were then going to return his body to the maze, so it would be easily explained that Harry just died during the third task and that way…

Eric: Ohh. I never put that together before! That makes so much… that’s why the Portkey is a return Portkey.

Laura: Yeah, because then Voldemort would be able to continue rising…

Eric: In secrecy.

Laura: In secrecy, exactly.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: That’s why later Dumbledore is like, “You really helped things by seeing that that day, because it completely ruined the surprise.” Okay, I just understood a major thing.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: That’s what I love about these books.

Eric: No, I know; there’s always something new on a reread. But I think that what it comes down to for Harry is he never wanted this. He never wanted that eternal glory. He didn’t put his name in the Goblet, and this is why Fakey failed to predict this is because… if Harry had wanted this from day one and chosen to put his own name in, he would be possessive of it, and I think he would run for the cup, especially after Cedric is like, “I’m not going to do this. You should take it.” Harry would have just sucked it up and gone. But because Harry doesn’t want to even… he can’t take credit for even being in the circumstance to begin with. Harry doesn’t want it at all, so it’s really lovely the solution they come up with because that school loyalty aspect is really just wonderful. I mean, if it had been able to go off like that, I’m sure everyone in the world would have cried favoritism and home field advantage and all that other stuff, but it was a nice sentiment in the moment.

Micah: Let’s ask the question, then: What would have happened…? Do we think Moody would have intervened before Cedric got to the cup?

Andrew: Yes, had to have. 100%.

Micah: Could have Stunned him…

Eric: Oh, if he predicted it, yeah.

Andrew: Or maybe sent another surprise enemy down.

Micah: Because it’s clear that Fakey is not trying to harm anybody here, right? The end goal is Harry get to the cup. But if you look at his treatment of Fleur and Krum, it’s not to kill, right? So it’s likely that he would have done something that would have eliminated Cedric from the competition, but likely not done any real significant damage to him.

Eric: Well, it’s the Crucio Curse. Essentially, if Harry hadn’t stepped in, Krum and Cedric would still be right where they were when Harry found him.

Laura: Yeah. And it would have been too suspicious if Fakey had been doing lethal things to all of the competitors except Harry. Imagine Harry wins the Triwizard Cup, comes out of the maze at the end, and the three other champions are dead in the maze.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Suspicious; that’s not really what Fakey is going for here. He’s trying to fly under the radar.

Eric: So all the other people have to be alive. And essentially, the patsy for casting Crucio on Cedric is the kid from the Dark Arts school, whose English is a second language, and nobody would really ever… oh, and his tutor is an ex-Death Eater. I can see the smear job that Fakey had planned for Krum this whole time.

Laura: Oh, and when you think about how Barty Crouch, Jr. feels about Karkaroff? Oof, yeah. That gets deep.

Eric: Right, because even if Krum says he was Imperiused, you blame Karkaroff.

Laura: I have to ask: How awkward would it have been if Harry had said, “No, Cedric, please. You.” And Cedric had been like, “Okay,” and if he had grabbed the cup himself and been transported to Little Hangleton without Harry. I’m just imagining Voldemort waiting and building up to this moment all year, just for this random Hufflepuff student to show up in the graveyard. [laughs]

Andrew: He’s like, [inhales excitedly] … and then it’s not him.

Micah: Cedric could have been the real champion here. Let’s think about the scenario is that Voldemort is not in full strength here – he only becomes to full strength once he gets Harry’s blood – and it’s Wormtail. If everything else equal, could Cedric have taken out Wormtail? Because he’s not injured, right, in the same way he is in the movie?

Andrew: Yeah, that would have been pretty incredible. That’s a good question. I mean, the only thing really working in Wormtail’s favor would be that Cedric would be so caught off guard that he just kind of panics and doesn’t know what to do.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I mean, in the first page of the next chapter, Harry and Cedric think it might be part of the task still, and so they…

Andrew: Right, so at least he would still be on his guard, in a way.

Eric: Well, yes. Yeah, on his guard. But yeah, unfortunately, the Dark side has all the cards here. But it is hilarious to think of Voldemort having to improvise, or just like, “Well, I guess we’ll use somebody who’s not Harry after all.”


Odds & Ends


Micah: All right, we’ll be heading off to the Little Hangleton graveyard in a couple of weeks, but that’s how the third task wraps up. And we have one odd and end that we wanted to call attention to.

Andrew: Yeah, just wanted to call out a little foreshadow alert: Fleur was eyeing Bill with great interest earlier in the chapter, and Harry could tell she had no objection whatsoever to long hair or earrings with fangs on them, so setting up what is to come in the future.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Laura: She has good taste.

Eric: Bill’s got something. Bill is a little playboy here. He’s getting eyes from two ladies in the room; not just Fleur, but also the Fat Lady’s friend. Just unbelievable.

Laura: Oh, Violet, yeah.

Eric: The portrait of Violet is happy to see him after all this time.

Micah: She knows things. [laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: And now it’s time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Hermione for helping Harry prepare for the third task over her exams. Prioritizing a friend over exams is Hermione’s love language. Message received.

Micah: Don’t tell Mrs. Weasley.

Eric: I’m going to give my MVP of the week to Bill Weasley for catching the attention of not just Fleur but the painting known as Violet. You player, you. I wonder what your love language is.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: All right, I’m going to give it to the maze for making the Quidditch pitch relevant in this book.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And for one last time, I’m going to give it to Cedric, a true gentleman and good sport to the very end.

Andrew: [tearfully] Well said. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that is recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. We prefer you record a voice memo on your phone, but we’ll take a phone call. Just remember to keep your message around a minute long, please. And next week, like we said, we are off due to both LeakyCon and the Fourth of July holiday, so if you’re looking for something new to enjoy, why not check out the latest episodes of our new pop culture podcast What the Hype?!, which is available in the MuggleCast feed.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: All right, last week’s question: Which family members are not present for the third task? And as Micah told you all last week, you must list them all. So it’s Charlie, who can’t get the time off from work, but sends his regards to Harry; Percy, who’s inundated with questions from the Ministry about Crouch, and he’s replaced tonight as Crouch’s reserve judge with Cornelius Fudge; and Arthur Weasley, who’s just not there for some reason. But Molly comes, so that’s nice. Charlie, Percy, and Arthur were correct. I did also accept those who added on top of Arthur, Charlie, and Percy, Auntie Muriel. And also somebody asked if Errol counts. Sure, why not?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: But we know why Arthur couldn’t come. I mean, just the thought of walking the Hogwarts grounds with Molly again; who knows what would have happened?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: You wouldn’t see them till about 4:00 a.m.

Micah: The Whomping Willow.

Eric: Wow. When the Willow is Whomping, you come stomping? I’m trying to figure that out.

Andrew: That’s good.

Eric: Yeah, thanks. Correct answers were submitted by Buff Daddy; Dead Boy Walking; Maze, Maze go away; Niffleroni and extra cheese; Now all I think about is Dumbledore as one of those old dads who sit on their porches reading the newspaper after he said he reads our newspaper…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: … Robbie; The stiffness in Mrs. Weasley’s voice that needs to stretch; and WeaselBee. So think that’s about eight winners out of 40 entries, so it was a hard one last week.

Laura: Wow.

Eric: I know, I know. And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What are Voldemort’s first words after he climbs out of the cauldron fully grown?

Micah: “Where’s my nose?”

Eric: “Oh, I’m nakey.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the MuggleCast website checking out transcripts or, I don’t know, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We thankfully don’t have a Ministry of Magic running the show; we’re just everyday Muggles putting together this podcast, flying by the seat of our pants like we’re Hagrid inventing Blast-Ended Skrewts. But that means we need support from listeners like you. If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And there’s also Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Now is the best time to pledge, y’all. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt. Make sure to pledge and fill out the form by July 19. And you’ll also get access to our livestreams, our recording studio – in other words, get access to our planning docs – the chance to co-host the show one day, a video message from one of the four of us, and a lot more. So check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.

Micah: And we are just a few days away from LeakyCon 2024. Eric, Chloé, and I will be out at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon from July 5-7, and Eric, I’m going to turn it over to you.

Eric: Yeah, we have some updates. So we were added to two more panels, and including one with the Fantasy Fangirls, so listen up. This is the most current and up-to-date info you’re going to get before the con, so recommend checking LeakyCon.com, clicking on the schedule – which is a Grenadine site – but here’s the info: On Friday, July 5 at 11:15 a.m., we are doing the MuggleCast meetup. That’s for all convention attendees who are listening to this now and want to come see us; it’ll be an intimate gathering. Then later on Friday, 3:45 p.m., I will be on a panel called “Love Is Love – Diversity and Inclusion in Fantasy.” On Saturday, July 6, 10:00 a.m., we’re going to be on our LeakyCon 2024 Podcaster Mega Panel featuring Pottercast, Potterless, Fantasy Fangirls, and us. And later that day at 5:00 p.m., MuggleCast Live; Micah, me, and Chloé having a lot of fun and reflecting on the 19th year of our podcast and the legacy therein. Then on Sunday, 2:30 to 3:30 p.m., “Rediscovering the Magic: Reading for Joy as an Adult.” This is the panel that’s with Fantasy Fangirls and us, and again, that’s at 2:30. And then in the Portland ballroom for closing ceremonies from 5:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. is the LeakyMug Live. We did just confirm it is going to be like a variety show, which is very exciting, with some time at the end to get together, have a conversation, and reflect. So totally love that; we’re very excited to see you at Leaky if you’re going to Portland. We’ll see you there.

Andrew: Cool.

Laura: Sounds fun.

Andrew: Well, hope you all have a good time. And we haven’t said this yet, I don’t think, but the MuggleCast Live that is happening there will be recorded, and we hope to get it out on the stream in a future week.

Eric: Absolutely.

Andrew: Hopefully sooner rather than later. So last but not least, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend. Spread the good Harry Potter word. And you can also help us spread the word by leaving a review in your favorite podcast app; we really appreciate those. Those give us all the warm fuzzy feelings. Finally, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, Quizzitch, our favorite episodes, and more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Americans, have a nice Fourth of July. We’ll see you all in two weeks. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.


Bloopers


Andrew: So that’s the update dere… so that’s the up… so that is the up… [laughs] Why can’t I say it right?

Eric: What is going on? Somebody unplug Andrew and plug him back in.

Micah: Somebody’s excited for the debate.

Andrew: So that is the update there. I forgot how to pivot to a D. So that is…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Don’t you hate it when that happens?

Micah: You know, sometimes things just set themselves up so well, you don’t need to say anything.

Transcript #663

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #663, Karkaroff the Canary (GOF Chapter 30, The Pensieve)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week we are diving headfirst into Dumbledore’s memories that he definitely didn’t leave accessible on purpose. Oh, why did Laura make me say that? Because I actually disagree, and now I just said it out loud like I’m Ron Burgundy.

Laura: Well, you’re on the record now. We can just take that clip, take it out of context…

Andrew: No…

Laura: … and now you’re a Dumbledore hater. Mission accomplished.

Andrew: Whoa, that escalated quickly.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, to help us with today’s discussion – and maybe help me defend Dumbledore – is friend of the show and a podcaster herself, Morgan. Hi, Morgan. Welcome to MuggleCast.

Morgan: Hi. I can’t believe it’s been so many years, and now I’m actually on MuggleCast. This is wild.

Andrew: You’re a longtime listener of the show. We’ve been in touch with you a lot recently; I helped you with the launch of your podcast, and a few of us in the Hypable podcast world have been on your show now too. Tell us about That Nerd Thing, your podcast.

Morgan: Yeah, well, and I’m going to be scheduling with Micah, and I’m also recording with Eric, so I’m completing the set. That Nerd Thing pretty much is a show where I interview people about the things that they’re nerdy about and learn about their journeys into fandom, and it’s also an opportunity for me to nerd out, because I don’t really get to do that in my day job as a therapist, and so it’s just a fun place to be creative. And thank you again, Andrew, for all of your help with launching the podcast. I could never have done it without you.

Andrew: Aw, it was my pleasure to help you. It was fun to talk through the ideas that you have.

Micah: Don’t inflate his ego, please.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, check out That Nerd Thing. And let’s also get your Fandom ID, Morgan.

Morgan: Yes, so my favorite book and movie is definitely Prisoner of Azkaban

Laura: Hell yeah.

Morgan: … because I just love, love, love time travel. It’s my favorite. Back to the Future is my all-time favorite movie, so whenever I see time travel in something, I love it. Let’s see… I have been a Hufflepuff for many years, but I feel like I’m entering my Slytherin era.

Andrew: Ooh.

Morgan: Thunderbird, and then my favorite character is Ron because I think he’s just so complex, and I love how he’s not just all good or all bad, and he is a lot in between.

Andrew: Again, it’s a pleasure to have you on, Morgan, and yeah, thanks for your long time support too. You’re a patron.

Morgan: I say it every time I talk to all of you, but I really will support all of you forever.

Laura: That means a lot.

Andrew: Thank you; that’s very nice. When we launched What the Hype?! I think you had said, “Is there a Patreon? Because I want to sign up.” [laughs] And we were like, “We’re actually not doing a Patreon for now.” But I appreciate that, your interest there.

Morgan: Well, it’s so much work! You guys… I can’t imagine all the behind the scenes stuff.

Andrew: It is a lot of work!

Morgan: Yeah, it’s a lot, so you should get paid for it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, you definitely helped us out by being on our most recent episode of What the Hype?!, which is coming out before…

Andrew: It’ll already be out.

Laura: It’ll already be out by the time this episode comes out where we’re reviewing the second half of Bridgerton Season 3, so thank you for being there with us.

Morgan: Thank you for asking.

Andrew: Well, speaking of Patreon, I am wearing this year’s physical gift right now. It’s the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt, featuring new silhouettes of the four MuggleCast co-hosts. This is a spin on our very first T-shirt, which we call the MuggleCast square design. It had the MuggleCast hosts in silhouette form with iPod earbuds; we were recreating those iconic Apple iPod commercials. So we recreated the shirt but just with the four hosts, and refreshed the design in a very slick new way because this August we’re turning 19, and of course, it’s the Epilogue year, 19 Years Later in Deathly Hallows. So patrons who pledge at the Slug Club level can get this T-shirt; existing patrons, make sure you fill out the T-shirt order form on Patreon. If you’re not a patron yet, or you’re at a lower tier, you can upgrade or pledge by July 19 and fill out the order form, and you will receive this shirt too. This is a shirt we have created exclusively for patrons. This is a great year to join us on Patreon, our 19 Years Later year. [laughs] I don’t know how to say it. Our Epilogue year.

Laura: It’s our 19 Years Later.

Andrew: Year.

Laura: That’s all you say.

Andrew: It’s our 19 Years Later moment.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: I’m high on cold medicine today; I feel like we should get that out there.

Micah: Aren’t we all?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: How do you think I do this show every week?

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: Well, like Morgan said, podcasting is a lot of work, and we really need everybody’s support over on Patreon because we are an independent podcast. Your support goes a really long way. It allows us to spend more time on this show that we love doing so much. So hit up Patreon.com/MuggleCast today and pledge by July 19, and don’t forget to fill out that order form as well. By the way, the T-shirt is just the tip of iceberg. You get access to our livestreams, early access to MuggleCast, ad-free MuggleCast, monthly Slug Club hangouts, the MuggleCast Collector’s Club…

Micah: Bonus MuggleCast.

Andrew: Bonus MuggleCast! Laura, what’s coming up in bonus MuggleCast this week?

Laura: Actually, this week’s bonus MuggleCast is inspired by some great news that we heard about Dan Radcliffe over the weekend. He won his first Tony; he won for Best Featured Actor for his role as Charlie Kringas in Stephen Sondheim’s Merrily We Roll Along. So bonus MuggleCast is really going to be based on what projects have the cast of Harry Potter been up to all these years since the movies ended? And I think when you start digging into the IMDb, you might be a little bit surprised to see just how many things all of these actors have continued to be in, and how many of these things you may have actually seen and just not necessarily made the connection because they are really good actors. And you don’t really see Dan Radcliffe in a lot of stuff, for example, and think, “Oh my God, that’s Harry Potter,” because he is such a good actor, and he does a great job of just sinking into a role. We’ll talk about all of those other projects that they’ve had in the years since Potter, but before we move on, I was thinking we could listen to Dan’s acceptance speech for his first ever Tony nomination and award win.

[Audio clip plays]

“Thank you so much to the Broadway League and the American Theater Wing for this unbelievable honor. Thank you to our producers, Sonia, David, Patrick, and Jeff, for making all of this happen. Thank you to Stephen Sondheim and George Furth for writing this unbelievable show and these incredible songs that are just a gift to get to sing every night. Thank you to Maria, our director, for knowing the show like the back of your hand, and for guiding us through it so, so beautifully. And also, just this has been one of the best experiences of my life. Thank you for thinking of me for this. This is just… it’s been unbelievable. Thank you so much to our cast, everybody on that stage. It is an honor to be on stage with you every single night. And to… yeah, I will just… I will miss it so much. Speaking of missing things, Jonathan, Lindsay, I will miss you so much. I don’t really have to act in this show; I just have to look at you and I feel everything I want to feel. I will never have it this good again. Thank you. Thank you to our crew, the band, the stage management team, everybody who makes the show happen every day at the Hudson Theater. You make it a dream to come to work. Thank you so, so much. Thank you to Sue Latimer, my agent, who has been with me literally my entire life. That’s not a joke. Sandy Binion, my dresser. You dressed me on Equus – or no, you didn’t dress me; we met on Equus, and then you’ve dressed me on everything since. None of this would have been half as much fun without you. Thank you so much. My singing teacher, Mark Malan, is the only reason I sound any good in the show. Thank you, Mark. My mum and dad are here somewhere. Happy Father’s Day, Dad. I love you both so much. Thank you for playing Sondheim in the car and just, you know, loving me. And my love Erin, you and our son, the best thing that has ever happened to me. I love you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Have a great, great night.”

[Audio clip ends]

Andrew: That was sweet, and Jonathan Groff was just straight up crying watching him receive that award, which was so sweet.

Laura: Yeah. I also love the brief moment of “You dressed me on Equus,” and it’s like, “No, no, nobody dressed you on Equus.”

Andrew: “You undressed on Equus.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But yeah, congrats to him, and he’s just such a wholesome guy.

Morgan: Yeah, you could hear the emotion.

Laura: Everything about that was so humble, yeah.

Micah: It’s really cool to see the passion that he has for theater, too. And I know we’re going to talk more about this in bonus MuggleCast, but getting to see him in How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, and then to see him in something completely opposite of that, which was The Cripple of Inishman, where he’s playing, literally, this crippled individual on stage night after night… I mean, he’s really good. I don’t think people give him enough credit. And his vocal ability too; he performed during the Tonys as well. And obviously, he’s done a ton of musicals. He’s multi-talented, and I don’t think he gets enough credit.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Well, we’ll try to give him more credit in bonus MuggleCast this week on our Patreon and through Apple Podcasts if you’re a MuggleCast Gold subscriber.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week, we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 30, “The Pensieve.” Let’s start with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Dumbledore…

Micah: … craftily…

Laura: … leaves…

Morgan: … exposed…

Laura: … memories…

Micah: … inside…

Andrew: … basin.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I was thinking those last two words were going to be “for Harry.”

Andrew: Ohh. Wow, you’re really trying to hammer that home this week.

Laura: Yeah, I think it’s important.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: And that’s actually where we’re going to start. We’re going to jump around a little bit here at the beginning, but then we’ll go back in order, I promise. Real talk: Dumbledore left that cabinet containing the Pensieve ajar, and you cannot change my mind. There is no way.

Andrew: Laura, Laura, Laura…

Laura: He doesn’t do anything on accident.

Andrew: Present your evidence, then I’ll respond.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I just don’t think he does anything on accident. When has Dumbledore ever accidentally done something?

Micah: Are we counting Ariana?

Laura: She was collateral damage. That’s different, but…

Micah: Okay.

Laura: Okay, so this thing is shimmering so much with the cabinet door open that Harry notices it amongst all the other weird stuff Dumbledore has in his office. And Dumbledore clearly places so much importance on the Pensieve that he was literally just using right before Fudge got there, so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn’t have wanted to hide that from Fudge…

Morgan: That’s a good point.

Laura: … and that he wouldn’t have closed the cabinet entirely. I think as they were walking out of the office, I think he had a slip of the wand…

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Laura: … and he just slightly opened up that cabinet as they walked out, because he knew Harry would see it.

Andrew: Well…

Micah: Come on, Andrew, what do you usually do? [imitating Andrew imitating Dumbledore] “Oohoo, I’m going for a walk. Don’t mind me.”

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Ooh, just heading on out for a quick minute. Don’t look around or anything, wink wink, nudge nudge.” I’ll give you one point that I think supports your argument: Dumbledore was not mad that Harry got poking his head into the Pensieve, and I personally would be pissed if someone just started looking around in my memories without my permission, so I give you that.

Laura: Yeah. He also says, “I quite understand.”

Andrew: “… the need to be nosy.” [laughs]

Laura: [laughs] And then, “Undoubtedly I did not fasten the cabinet door properly. Naturally, it would have attracted your attention,” and “Curiosity is not a sin.” Come on, man.

Micah: So I’ll defend Dumbledore a little bit here…

Laura: No. [laughs] I’m kidding.

Micah: … because Harry is looking at all these things that have assisted him previously within Dumbledore’s office, right? He’s looking at Fawkes, then he goes over and he sees the Sorting Hat, and then it’s in the reflection of the sword of Gryffindor that he notices this light that’s coming from this cabinet. So I’m not saying Dumbledore didn’t leave the latch open, but maybe it’s actually the magic that’s actually assisting him here. Maybe it’s all those things that have helped Harry in the past. Remember, “Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who need it.” I don’t know. I’m not putting this all on Dumbledore. Harry is nosy; remember, we called him out for that…

Laura: He is.

Micah: … for the last several chapters.

Andrew: Dumbledore would also know that he’s nosy and might poke around, so I’m just falling onto Laura’s side as I talk this through. But…

Laura: Yeah, I just think it’s very convenient that we also see Bertha Jorkins towards the end of this sequence where Dumbledore is explaining the Pensieve to him, and we also see Karkaroff talking about the Dark Mark that he and Snape both share. And I mean, the fact that this trial is the queued-up memory that Dumbledore was looking at…

Andrew: [laughs] Well, he’s got a lot to consider right now.

Laura: He does, he does. But also, I think that he respects Harry, and I think that he thinks Harry is really mature, so I don’t think it’s out of left field to say that he had a hand in setting this up.

Morgan: I don’t necessarily think it was also a bad thing that he did that. I think Dumbledore is starting to struggle with how much to tell Harry and how much to not tell him, because he knows that there’s a lot going on and a lot of history that Harry has to learn eventually, and maybe he just doesn’t know when is the right time to start and this is a convenient place to start opening that door.

Laura: And we definitely see him open the door to certain topics. At this point in the series we don’t know anything about Horcruxes or even that they exist, but he’s kind of testing the waters by starting to float some theories, so I think it’s fair.

Micah: One of the things that I wanted to call attention to, because it’s referenced several times in this chapter, is just how old Dumbledore appears, and the chapter actually ends, the last paragraph of the chapter, saying that Dumbledore was “looking older than ever.” And I’m curious why we feel the author is drawing attention to this specifically in this moment. Is it to suggest the severity of the situation and everything that’s been going on with the Triwizard Tournament? Or is it really to humanize Dumbledore, to kind of pull back the curtain on this godlike figure, right? The Yoda, the Gandalf of this particular series, and show that Dumbledore is human after all?

Morgan: I think it’s also showing that Harry is growing up because he’s starting to see the flaws in Dumbledore and see that he’s aging, and it reminds me of when kids start to realize their parents are human and they have flaws and they start to grow up into that, and I think that’s happening pretty early for Harry because of everything that he’s experienced.

Andrew: Yeah, and I imagine Dumbledore has been lacking sleep in recent weeks and months. And I think spending an extended time with Dumbledore in his private quarters is a space where you’re going to see Dumbledore without his stage face on, so to speak. If you see him across the way in the Great Hall at the head of the table…

Micah: He’s got his makeup on.

Andrew: Yeah, and he’s on, he’s energized, he’s presenting to the crowd. Here he’s stressed about a situation he hasn’t quite cracked yet. There’s obviously major issues afoot under his nose at the castle, and he hasn’t figured them out yet; it’s got to be stressing him out. He’s responsible for all these kids. So when I read that line, “looking older than ever,” what I think the main issue is – the reason why Dumbledore is looking older than ever in this moment – is because he’s just really worried and stumped here.

Laura: I will say, Morgan, I like your point if we’re thinking about it as foreshadowing for Book 5, for what’s coming, because Harry is about to learn a whole lot about how imperfect Dumbledore is, and honestly, he’s not even going to get the half of it for another couple of books. [laughs] Well, we’re going to go dive into Dumbledore’s Pensieve and see if we can find Dumbledore’s memory of leaving the Pensieve cabinet open…

Andrew: Ooh, fun. [laughs]

Laura: … so that I can prove my theory for once and for all. We’ll be right back.

[Morgan laughs]

[Ad break]

Laura: Speaking of Harry being nosy, he ends up falling face first into the Pensieve because he’s really trying to see what’s going on in this courtroom that he’s looking down at from a bird’s eye view, and he ends up tumbling into the courtroom. He’s seated on a bench, and he already sees some familiar faces, and some new ones that are going to become really important in the next book. So the familiar ones are Dumbledore, Moody, Crouch Senior, and Rita Skeeter, but we also see certain Death Eaters who are going to become a lot more prevalent in the next book, like namely Bellatrix Lestrange. We don’t even get her by name, but just by physical description we know who this character is and who she will be. But what do we think about the wizarding justice system?

Micah: We get our first real taste of it and the inherent biases that are present and just how the system really works into that. It actually falls in line, Laura, with what you were just saying, because we’re going to get a real taste of it in the next book with Harry, and he’s actually going to be in the exact same room that we’re dropping into in the Pensieve, so it’s just really fascinating to see how wizards do justice. And we get very different examples of it with the three different memories that we go into, or I should say the three different suspects that go on trial. The justice is very different for each of them.

Laura: Yeah, as are the biases being held by Crouch Senior and the jury. But speaking of things that I also saw as foreshadowing for the next book, there’s this moment where Harry, he’s seated next to memory Dumbledore, who has no awareness that he’s there, can’t see him. And Harry, to prove his theory, decides to wave his arms madly in front of Dumbledore’s face and thought, “Okay, this is not present day Dumbledore, because he would never ignore me.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That thought ages like milk.

Micah: [laughs] Just you wait.

Morgan: Part of me, every time I’ve read that, I still always wonder maybe Dumbledore did see Harry and had some sort of weird magical powers where he was able to do that. I still… part of me always thinks that.

Laura: I mean, I think it would be an interesting theory to examine. I don’t think that we’ve seen quite enough of people interacting with and being in memories to know for sure if that would be possible, but I mean, if it was going to be possible for anyone, Dumbledore would be the guy.

Andrew: Doesn’t that seem like that could bring up time traveling issues, though? If somebody’s coming in via a Pensieve in a memory, and then you’re wondering, “Well, why are you here?” I don’t know. I think it’s best this way that nobody in the memory could see the person trying to relive the memory.

Laura: What happens if you break the rules of time travel and you go back in time to change something, but you’re seen by the people who made up that memory? Does the memory change because of the time travel that happened? Or was the memory always that way because the time travel always happened?

Andrew: [laughs] This is the exact issue with the time travel stuff.

[Morgan laughs]

Laura: Yep, that’s the problem. Time travel is messy.

Morgan: Paradox. This is when I go to Reddit to try to understand all of it.

Laura: Speaking of understanding, Morgan, it seems like having a Pensieve would be pretty helpful.

Morgan: Oh my God, yes. I can’t imagine being able to have one of those in the therapy room and be like, “Okay, let’s go look at these memories and examine them and see if we can notice any patterns and what’s going on so that we can make changes now.” I think it’s just such a cool feature, and I think it’s so symbolic to be able to go back and look and examine things from somewhat of an objective point of view, because I’m sure even if multiple people go to the same memory, they still would view things differently. But I just think it’s such a cool thing to have to help understand our own patterns.

Andrew: It also raises the question of how accurate are these memories? They’re accurate from your own perspective, from your own memory, but once you pull it out, I guess it’s sort of locked in permanently. That memory won’t fade because then it’s in the Pensieve being put on ice, if you will.

Morgan: Yeah. Is the memory then gone from our head? How does that work?

Andrew: See, I don’t think so.

Laura: I’ve always wondered that.

Andrew: I don’t think so, because then how would you know that you could go and retrieve it?

[Morgan laughs]

Micah: That’s a really good point.

Laura: Yeah. Or maybe it is still in your head, but because you removed it, as soon as you had it, the memory is untarnished from the initial event. Because don’t they always say that when you’re remembering something, you’re not actually remembering that thing; you’re just remembering the last time you remembered it?

Micah: The last time, exactly. I wonder, though, about the ability to manipulate memories, because we see what happens when Slughorn tries to do it. And so I’m wondering if the memory really is from anyone’s perspective, is it an actual reflection of what happened in that moment? Because otherwise, Slughorn wouldn’t be able to mess with it the way we see him do it in Half-Blood Prince. Does that make sense?

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I’m wondering if we ever did an episode on Pensieves because… [laughs] like, just a whole episode discussing them in particular.

Laura: We have to have.

Micah: We must’ve.

Andrew: I’m googling; I can’t find it.

Laura: Yeah, I think we… I mean, I know we’ve discussed the Pensieve quite a bit, and I mean, even within this chapter there are probably more ways than one that we could see a Pensieve being used, and we only get to see it used in the one instance where Harry is using it. And literally in a trial, something like a Pensieve would come in pretty clutch, but nobody’s using that.

Andrew: HedwigsTheme in our Discord said, “Micah, JKR said, ‘Yes, it’s an accurate reflection of what happened, despite what the person noticed at the time.'”

Micah: Nice. Plus one.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I know she said it, but…

Andrew: Doesn’t make it true. [laughs]

Micah: She’s said a lot of things.

[Morgan laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but also, there’s no such thing as an objective or accurate memory because we’re all biased. Agree to disagree there. So Harry, over the course of being in this courtroom, sees three different trials, and they’re clearly not all in the same day or even close to each other time-wise, because I think we see Crouch Senior getting a little older and seeming a little more haggard towards the end of these. But the first one he sees is none other than Karkaroff’s, and this guy – this should come as no surprise to anyone – sings like a freaking canary.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: He wants out of Azkaban, he wants away from the Dementors, and he is – according to him – completely repentant, ashamed that he ever allied himself with Voldemort, and willing to throw anyone he can under the bus.

Micah: [laughs] Laura…

Laura: Unfortunately… say what?

Micah: You made me think, when you were saying “sing like a canary,” I’m envisioning Karkaroff saying these Death Eater names like the Pokémon rap.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I thought you were picturing Karkaroff’s head on a canary. AI art, where you at?

Micah: Oh, well, we can get that done; don’t worry. I’ll take care of that.

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Laura: Yeah. Oh God, please no; that sounds horrifying. But unfortunately, Karkaroff tries to throw out names like Dolohov, Rosier, Mulciber, Travers, even Snape, and Crouch doesn’t care about any of these because they’re either all already cleared, apprehended, or dead. But Karkaroff does strike gold by naming Augustus Rookwood of the Department of Mysteries, and this is where when I was rereading this chapter, I had to go digging in the Harry Potter fandom wiki and jumping around in the books to be like, “How the hell was Barty Crouch, Jr. found out?” Because it’s a movie-ism that Karkaroff names Barty Crouch, Jr., but I could have swore that in the books the Rookwood connection somehow led to the revelation about who tortured the Longbottoms. But we find out later that Crouch Junior was accompanied by Bellatrix as well as Rodolphus and Rabastan Lestrange, so Rookwood wasn’t there. And it kind of broke my brain for a moment because I was certain that Karkaroff’s testimony in some way led to the Crouch Junior revelation; not as directly as in the movies, but I thought there was some subtle connection there.

Micah: Why that works so well, too, is in all of what we see here in these series of trials, all of these individuals are now present at Hogwarts in the present day. Karkaroff, Bagman, and then Barty Crouch, Jr.; we just don’t know that Moody is Barty Crouch, Jr. right now. So it’s actually really masterfully written that in these three trials, we’re getting the three main suspects as to who could have put Harry’s name into the Goblet of Fire. These are the three people… in one case, we don’t know we’ve been paying attention to him the whole time, but Karkaroff has been a major suspect. Bagman has been kind of on the outskirts; his suspect level has risen and fallen at times. And then you get to Barty Crouch, Jr., but again, the other masterful piece of writing here is that his name is never mentioned.

Laura: True.

Micah: And I think that had it been, you probably would have ended up with Harry possibly coming to a realization much sooner about, “Oh, the Marauder’s Map, I saw Barty Crouch on there; maybe it wasn’t Senior,” and on it goes. But if I can just bring up for a second, there’s a huge reveal here that I think even in the writing is just so glossed over, and that is that Snape is a Death Eater, or he was.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And it’s not even… it doesn’t even land. Harry brings it up later in the chapter, but it doesn’t create… I don’t know. And maybe it’s because I already knew, but it wasn’t a blow you away type of moment.

Andrew: No, it should give Harry a lot of pause, too, and he should be taking a second to be like, “Whoa. Wait, really? One of my teachers is/was a Death Eater?”

Morgan: It just shows how much he trusts Dumbledore.

Laura: Yeah, and how it really isn’t a surprise to hear that.

Andrew: Well, that’s true too. I mean, Harry despises Snape so much that I guess it’s like, “Oh, who could have been surprised?”

Laura: Yeah. It is kind of surprising that Harry doesn’t have more vindication about this, though, and I think it’s just because Dumbledore probably wouldn’t allow it, at least not outwardly. But we were just talking about Ludo Bagman, too, so we’re going to talk about his trial next, and this is really a clear example of where the rules of justice are being bent in favor of a celebrity. I mean, we see this jury very quick to boo anything critical being stated or asked of Ludo Bagman, and I’m wondering if the jury would have cut him this much slack if he weren’t a famous Quidditch player.

Morgan: Definitely not.

Andrew: Well, and this is… you asked about the justice system in the wizarding world a few minutes ago. How does jury selection work? Because if they were interviewed and they found out that these jury members were fanboys, basically, of Ludo Bagman, they should have been kicked off the jury. They shouldn’t be allowed to participate in the trial. So it seems like there really isn’t any jury selection process that’s really vetting these potential candidates.

Laura: No.

Micah: Isn’t this just before the entire Wizengamot? These are Ministry officials, right? They’re not jury members.

Laura: Well, they’re described as a jury, though.

Andrew: I get… yeah. That term, I guess, could be used loosely.

Micah: Maybe. I have to go back and look at it.

Andrew: But still, even the people who are making the decision, they should be vetted before being a member of this group who’s getting to vote. Or I don’t know, it’s just… it’s so unfair. [laughs] It’s such an unfair trial.

Micah: Well, is it any different than in the next book when Dumbledore strolls in and he’s got his favorites out in the crowd who are waving at him?

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Laura: Yeah, very true.

Micah: I don’t know what to make of Ludo’s trial, to be honest with you. I mean, the allegations are serious for sure, but it just goes to show you, though, that you can use your personality and your fame to your advantage, and that’s exactly what he does here. Who knows the truth, if he’s actually guilty or not? Maybe he did knowingly pass information along.

Morgan: I just think that whole situation is wild, and it just reminded me that I hope I never commit a crime where I have to depend on a jury of my peers, because I would be so afraid of what could potentially happen. And I mean, I just think it’s so strange that they let Barty Crouch, Sr. still preside over all of that.

Andrew: Yeah, there’s a major conflict of interest. But in terms of Ludo, he said he didn’t know that Rookwood was a Death Eater, but Rookwood had been a friend of Ludo’s dad and had persuaded Ludo into giving him the information by talking about getting Ludo a job at the Ministry, so I think the excuse that, “Oh, I passed along this information because Rookwood was my dad’s friend,” I can buy it, personally. I can see why you might be fooled.

Laura: Yeah, but let me ask this: Do we think Ludo deserved some kind of consequence for this? I mean, people are convicted of crimes of negligence all the time, and we know that the wizarding world’s justice system really doesn’t stack up against our own. And I mean, I’m not saying that ours is perfect; it’s not. But there’s a lot of bias, I think, that we see in this chapter, in the way these trials are run, and I guess I just feel like Ludo deserved some kind of consequence, potentially, like a fine, even, for damages.

Micah: Well, we know he can’t pay it.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: He’s going to go swindle somebody out of money.

Laura: But back then he was still famous, a famous Quidditch player, still top of his game. He might have been able to.

Micah: It makes me wonder, too, how old was he when he was passing this information along to Rookwood? Was he a teenager? Because he says his dad’s friend, it lends me to believe that maybe it was… was he an apprentice of sorts?

Andrew: “I was young and dumb.”

Laura: I read it as young, but not teenager young, just because again, he is an internationally famous Quidditch player, so I thought maybe young to mid 20s.

Morgan: Yeah, I thought that too.

Micah: I just think it’s really very dangerous the way that he’s put on trial, because what better way to hide in plain sight than to be this celebrity and get off based on your celebrity status? And I think we learn that he really didn’t have anything to do with the Death Eaters or Harry’s name entering the Goblet of Fire. I think by including him in these trials, it still allows the air of suspicion to linger over him for at least another chapter or two…

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: … until we get the big reveal, which we’re going to get. So I think it was good writing.

Andrew: But also, I wanted to ask this question later, but I’ll raise it now: What was Dumbledore thinking by wanting to relive this memory, or by wanting Harry to relive the memory? Where is Dumbledore’s mind here? If Dumbledore is running through three suspects in the Pensieve, then presumably he thinks any one of the three could be causing trouble at school, and he also wants Harry to know about what these guys were up to. Allegedly.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s very telling that he chose to go back and look at these three trials, given, again, who is at Hogwarts and who’s been offering to help Harry with every single task that’s come along too.

Andrew: True.

Laura: I mean, it’s funny, because I remember the first time I read Goblet of Fire, I didn’t really pick up any suspicions for Ludo Bagman, but with fresh eyes now, it’s very clear that he was intended to be some kind of red herring. I don’t know; I feel like he’s almost too lame to have actually been the bad guy. [laughs]

Micah: But I think you’re right, Laura, it’s a way to show the reader that, hey, all the players were involved back then, and all the same players are now involved here in present day. Even Rita Skeeter is there, right, at Ludo’s trial? Specifically she’s called out at Ludo’s trial, so I often wonder is there something there? We talked about it back when they showed up in the Three Broomsticks and there was that passing conversation between the two of them, or there was some mention that that happened, and so I wonder, was Rita a fan, a super fan of Ludo Bagman?

Andrew: [laughs] Probably.

Micah: Because how young is she in this moment? Is she already a journalist or…? What’s she doing there?

Morgan: She also probably knows that people will be really interested in his trial and what happened there, so she knows how to get the scoop.

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: And she definitely had her Quick Quotes Quill with her as well, so I think she was definitely reporting on it.

Andrew: Maybe a budding journalist.

Laura: Yeah. But it definitely adds context to the conversation she had with Ludo in Hogsmeade a few chapters ago. When you think about her having that conversation with him, and even if she doesn’t directly say it, knowing that there’s an undercurrent of, “I was at your trial, remember? You probably don’t want people to remember that that was a thing you had to do, right?” [laughs]

Micah: I really want to ask the same question that Andrew just asked about Ludo’s trial, with the trial that we have coming up: What did Dumbledore hope to gain out of looking at the trial of Barty Crouch, Jr.?

Laura: Well, we will get to that in just a moment, but first we have to stand trial for our own crimes, so we’re going to be judged by a jury of our peers – here’s hoping that they’re easy on us – but we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Laura: As Micah alluded to before the break, we get the real gut punch of this chapter, which is Crouch Junior – who we don’t hear referred to as Barty Crouch, Jr. – along with Bellatrix, Rodolphus, and Rabastan Lestrange, are put on trial for the torture of the Longbottoms. The latter three that I mentioned are currently unnamed, like I think I said earlier, but it’s clear that they were established very prominently because they were going to be important in the future books. Bellatrix is even described as sitting on her chair like it was a throne, even though she’s literally chained to it. So I wanted to ask this question of everyone, because I paged through the books and it was really difficult to find a clear cut answer to this: How was it actually determined that Crouch Junior took part in the torture of the Longbottoms? How do we know for sure that he did that? Because there’s no evidence presented in this trial.

Andrew: And I think Dumbledore says in this chapter, because of the state of the Longbottoms, they were bad witnesses. [laughs]

Laura: Well, and Harry asks him, “Did he actually do it?” And Dumbledore says, “I don’t know.”

Andrew: Micah asked why was Dumbledore reliving this memory; maybe this is part of it. He wants to relive this trial to get another look at Senior and Junior, how they were acting towards each other in the trial. He maybe wanted to see what Senior was really looking like when he was sentencing his son, putting him in Azkaban. Was he faking it? Was this all a ploy? Did they have greater plans in mind, Junior and Senior?

Micah: Let’s not forget that Mrs. Crouch is also there, too, during this trial.

Andrew: “I didn’t do it, Mother! Mommy, it wasn’t me!”

Laura: Yeah, and you can read the pain in those attempts for him trying to reach out to his mother to get his dad to reconsider, and his mom ultimately faints at the point of his sentencing, a lifelong sentence in Azkaban.

Micah: I’m almost wondering if Barty Crouch, Jr. was guilt by association, just given who he’s being put on trial with. When you think about Bellatrix and the Lestranges, these are top level Death Eaters. Even Bellatrix says a little bit later on as she’s being escorted out, straight to Crouch’s face, “The Dark Lord will rise again.” And I don’t think Barty, at least at this moment – Junior – has any clue what he’s really gotten himself into. I think it changes in the moment where Crouch responds, basically saying “You’re no son of mine,” and that’s the solidifying piece of it, but it’s hard to say. I don’t know if Barty Crouch, Jr. was just initiated through what happened to the Longbottoms; maybe he was forced to do things by Bellatrix and the others that he didn’t want to do. I’m not trying to absolve him of anything here, but in that moment where you see the father/son interaction and him really just pleading for help, I think it could be guilt by association.

Laura: Yeah, that’s kind of my headcanon, too, especially when we think about Crouch Senior’s reputation and what was at stake for him at the time. Because remember, he was a candidate, a serious candidate, for Minister of Magic, and having his son be implicated in connection with three of the most horrible Death Eaters is not a good look for the tough on crime guy at the Ministry. So we can’t know for sure what happened, but I think if Crouch Junior got wrapped up in something that was way bigger than he was and that he was naive and ignorant about, I could see Crouch Senior throwing the book at him anyway. And we do have to remember, too, Crouch Junior is like, 18/19 at this point; he’s just out of Hogwarts. And as Micah said, it doesn’t excuse any of it; that’s old enough to know better than to get caught up in that kind of thing, but I think there’s context, especially in the type of father that Crouch Senior is, that can point us to understanding why Crouch Junior might have sought acceptance somewhere else.

Micah: I’ll be honest; I don’t remember exactly what he says in the Veritaserum chapter where you learn pretty much everything you’re going to learn about Barty Crouch, Jr., but yeah. I mean, I even think back to the way he treats Neville in this book, and is that him trying to redeem himself in some way? We talk a lot about how he likes to play with his food throughout the course of this book, but he also has these moments where you’re scratching your head a little bit, and you’re saying to yourself, “Is he really that bad?”

Laura: Yeah, he’s a complex character; that’s what makes him so compelling to read. What do you think, Morgan? I’m curious for your professional opinion on this potential dynamic impact that might have landed Barty Crouch, Jr. here.

Morgan: If somebody has a parent who’s very strict and structured, it is really normal for the kids to place high expectations on themselves and then never feel accepted, and so it’s easy for them to be more susceptible to other people who will show that acceptance. So I could totally see him sort of just falling in line with a crowd that showed acceptance that he was really hoping for, and then getting caught up in it, and then getting convicted, and then it just spiraling from there. I felt kind of bad for him.

Andrew: And so looking at all these memories together, just to recap “Where is Dumbledore’s mind right now?” like I asked a few minutes ago. So he can’t get the Ministry on his side; we definitely see that in this chapter. Can he trust Karkaroff? Is that something that’s going through his mind right now?

Laura: Oh, for sure.

Andrew: Suspecting Ludo as well? Or at least wants Harry to know that he should be suspicious of him. Can he trust Crouch, even with his conviction when sentencing his own son? And by that, I mean it was a firm sentencing; he wasn’t wavering about it. He was like, “You’re going to Azkaban, son, who’s no son of mine. Sorry.” And the last thing I think he’s wondering is, “Where’s that pizza that I ordered?”

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Hey, where’s the pizza I ordered? It’s Harry knocking, but where’s the pizza?”

Micah: Does it get dropped into the Pensieve as well?

[Morgan laughs]

Andrew: Oh, that would be a crying shame. I don’t think so. I hope not.

Laura: He wants to remember that pizza forever.

Micah: Can you eat in the memory? Or no, you’ve got to eat outside the memory.

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: The pizza falls into the Pensieve and lands on Barty Crouch, Jr.’s head. [laughs] He’s like, “Oh, I’m going to Azkaban, but at least I got some pizza.”

Laura: Don’t you think he would be like, “What’s this?”

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Laura: I’ve never seen pizza in Harry Potter ever. And he’s a pure-blood wizard; what exposure is he going to have to Muggle food?

Andrew: True.

Laura: Well, after all of these… basically this info-dump of memories of these trials, Dumbledore does return to his office. And he pulls Harry out of the Pensieve and they do a little bit of a Pensieve recap, which is what we covered towards the top of the episode, talking about what the Pensieve does, how Dumbledore uses it to keep his memories organized, which actually, Morgan, I think you caught on to that when you were thinking about how could we use this in therapy to identify patterns? Dumbledore is doing exactly that here, and he’s trying to identify patterns with the fallout of the first wizarding war to explain why what’s happening now is happening. From there, Harry recaps the dream he had in the last chapter to Dumbledore, and learns that Dumbledore already knew about the dream because Dumbledore is also nosy and he’s corresponding with Sirius as well. But when Harry suggests to Dumbledore that the dream felt so real, Dumbledore is starting to put together the pieces around his Horcrux theory. And while he doesn’t give it all away to Harry, he definitely shares some of his suspicions.

Andrew: “I have a theory, no more than that… It is my belief that your scar hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred.”

Laura: “But… why?”

Andrew: “Because you and he are connected by the curse that failed. That is no ordinary scar.”

Laura: And so he’s kind of telling Harry that he’s a Horcrux at this point without telling him that he thinks he’s a Horcrux. How well put together do we think Dumbledore has this at this point in the series?

Andrew: Well, he does preface it with “It’s no more than a theory.” Maybe he’s just trying to cushion the blow for Harry, because if he is certain and he says it without, “Just a guess, I don’t know for sure, don’t shoot the messenger,” type thing. But I’m willing to believe that he hasn’t completely put the pieces together. He’s not 100% certain that Harry is a Horcrux.

Morgan: And maybe he doesn’t want to accept that, because then he knows what it means, and he’s in denial.

Andrew: Yeah. And going back to that line earlier where Dumbledore is described as looking older than ever, I mean, on one hand, he could be looking older than ever because he just realized Harry is a Horcrux and he hasn’t been sleeping. He’s been losing sleep over it. On the other hand, he’s looking older than ever because he still hasn’t cracked this mystery wide open yet.

Laura: Well, Dumbledore is still on the path of trying to discover the truth behind this mystery, and part of it is him drawing connections based on Harry’s latest dream and the times and locations of certain disappearances, and he basically says, “Harry, Voldemort’s rise to power last time was really marked by strange disappearances that were happening in places that were closely connected to Voldemort.” And here is where we get the first mention of Frank Bryce since Chapter 1 of this book. And Dumbledore says here that he just learned about this by reading the Muggle newspapers, and he makes the connection that Frank Bryce lived in Voldemort’s dad’s town, but he doesn’t state the connection that Frank Bryce was actually the groundskeeper for the Riddle house. Does Dumbledore not have that context? Is he missing that?

Andrew: You would think Dumbledore has maybe done some research here, whether it’s going to the town itself and asking around or, I don’t know, hearing through other ways. But I could picture him going to the town, asking around, and finding out that Frank actually did care for the Riddle property. Seems like some easy information to come across.

Micah: Right. There’s a huge difference between just being somebody from Voldemort’s old hood, and being the one who actually lived on his family property.

Laura: He also brings up Bertha Jorkins, who, of course, that disappearance is also very recent, and mentions that she vanished in the place that Voldemort was last known to be, which was Albania. And then, of course, covers Crouch Senior disappearing on the Hogwarts grounds. I don’t understand why this isn’t a huge red flag that they’ve been infiltrated. Dumbledore says it almost in passing; he’s like, “And Crouch Senior, which happened right here…” It’s like, you’re going to let this third task go on when these strange disappearances that you think are linked to Voldemort are happening, and one of them happened on your grounds? But how are we feeling about Dumbledore at this point?

Morgan: Yeah, this chapter was when I started realizing, “Okay, maybe I’ll cut Dumbledore some slack,” because I know a lot of people don’t like him and what he did with Harry, but I think he was as open as he could be. He was answering Harry’s questions, but he also was keeping in mind Harry is still 14, which was wild for me to realize as I was reading it again. I’m like, “Oh, wow.” Thinking about 14-year-olds now, that’s so young. But Dumbledore, I think, was doing a good job balancing giving information but not giving too much, so I feel for Dumbledore, because he probably doesn’t know how to handle this accurately or in the healthiest way possible.

Andrew: And meanwhile, Harry is about to compete in the third task. He doesn’t need extra stress on top of the Triwizard Tournament and his own stress that comes with this mystery that he’s been trying to figure out himself.

Laura: You know what else he doesn’t need? He doesn’t need to participate in the third task.

[Morgan laughs]

Laura: There doesn’t need to be a third task, or…

Andrew: There really shouldn’t be.

Laura: Do we really believe at this point that the Goblet would smite Harry and all the other champions if they canceled the tournament?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, a reasonable headmaster or team of people running this cup, this tournament, would be like, “Out of an abundance of caution -” isn’t that the phrase that’s so often used? ” – we have decided to postpone the Triwizard Tournament.” At least postpone it. You don’t have to cancel it; just put it on ice for a little while.

Laura: Yeah, just do like they did with student loans for four years and just be like, “Meh.”

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Laura: “Don’t worry about those.” [laughs]

Andrew: But I also wonder if Dumbledore… if we’re still going along with your theory that Dumbledore wanted Harry to look in the Pensieve, I wonder if Dumbledore wanted Harry to have all this information right before the third task. Maybe he thought it would better prepare him in case something went awry at the third task, but that’s a pretty messed up thought because it’s like, well, Dumbledore actually thought something might happen at the third task. The next chapter is the third task. This is happening right before then.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: So I don’t want to think Dumbledore is giving it to him right before the third task on purpose to better prepare him, but I don’t know. The timing is a little interesting too. Now, of course, Harry did decide to go up there because he just had the dream, so there’s also that.

Micah: Part of me thinks that Dumbledore knows that shit’s about to go down because he even says, “Good luck in the third task.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I know.

Micah: Like, good luck? Sorry. [imitating Dumbledore] “Good luck in the…” I don’t know. I don’t do it as well as Andrew.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore intensely] “Good luck in the third task!”

Micah: There you go.

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Laura: No, that’s Trelawney.

Micah: [imitating Dumbledore calmly] “Good luck in the third task.”

Laura: You’ve got to say it with a little bit of sass, though.

Micah: Like a twinkle, yeah.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore like a game show host] “Good luck in the third task.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That’s more like Ludo Bagman.

Laura: I hope nothing bad happens.

Andrew: You know what? I’m not a paid voice actor. I don’t need these notes, y’all. I’m giving it to you for free how I want to give it to you.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Beggars can’t be choosers.

Laura: Well, this chapter ends on a bit of a somber note with Harry realizing why Neville was raised by his grandmother. He didn’t think to ask about it until he saw the trial about what happened to the Longbottoms and until he talks to Dumbledore. So Dumbledore does ask Harry – and I think this is one of those great Dumbledore moments – he says, “Please don’t tell anyone about Neville’s parents; it’s his right to decide when he wants to tell people.”

Andrew: It’s a heartbreaking moment.

Laura: It is.

Andrew: Because Harry…

Morgan: My heart breaks for Neville.

Laura: Morgan, if you had to give Dumbledore a score based on how he handled that, 10 out of 10 or…?

Morgan: Yeah, 10 out of 10.

Laura: Cool.

Morgan: Respecting Neville’s boundaries.

Andrew: And Morgan and I will give him more props in a couple of minutes. But it’s also heartbreaking, because Neville’s parents are alive, but not. Harry’s parents are dead, and very much dead. And I guess Harry can almost see that they have this connection. Yeah, Neville’s parents are still breathing, but he’s lost them too.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: And I mean, honestly, what happened to Neville’s parents is worse in a way. Not to play the tragedy Olympics here, but…

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “A fate worse than death.”

Laura: They’re trapped in their bodies and they’ve lost their sanity.

Morgan: Yeah, and Neville really didn’t get to say goodbye.

Andrew: And he still doesn’t get to say goodbye.

Laura: Well, and he never gets to see his parents as they were, because he was also a baby when this happened to them. So this is all he’s ever known, is having to visit his parents in the hospital.


Odds & Ends


Laura: All right. Well, we’re going to try to pep ourselves up by looking at a couple of odds and ends. We mentioned earlier that Dumbledore has been corresponding with Sirius, but we also learn that Dumbledore suggested his current hiding place in the cave out on the skirts of Hogsmeade. And he’s just so matter of fact about it with Harry by being like, “Yeah, you’re not the only one who writes to Sirius. What of it?”

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. And of course, Sirius wants to talk to Dumbledore, too, to make sure he’s getting as much information as possible.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: And I wonder if Dumbledore ever uses this cave for anything himself. Is this a place for him to go relax and read and get away from all the kids?

Micah: Uh-huh. Hook up.

Andrew: Hook up, yeah.

Morgan: The stress of the school. [laughs]

Laura: I think Sirius has better things to do.

Andrew: Dumbledore, you mean?

Micah: Than what?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No, than hook up in the cave.

Micah: No, we were talking about Dumbledore.

Andrew: How did Dumbledore know about this cave?

Laura: Oh, oh, sorry. Oh yeah, he and Grindelwald definitely christened that cave.

Andrew: Ooh!

Micah: I just wanted to call out Harry for calling out Fudge on his prejudice. He does this at the beginning of the chapter when he had overheard Fudge’s comments in the prior chapter about Madame Maxime possibly being the one who stunned Krum and did something to Barty Crouch, Sr., and Harry says something along the lines, “Well, I think we would have noticed if she was lingering around. She’s kind of tall, so…”

Andrew: Takes some guts to stand up to the Minister of Magic.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. And I think it’s going to be the first of many moments for Harry. He’s getting in some practice shots now, because he’s really going to need to stand up to them in the future.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, well, it’s time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Micah: My MVP goes to Moody’s real eye.

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Micah: I think it’s the only time it appears in the series. And of course, I’m talking about the one that is eventually covered up by the magical eye. But it’s noted that Moody has both of them in this chapter.

Laura: So this is a rare one for me: I’m actually going to give it to Harry. I feel like this never happens. I think Harry is someone who proves the old adage “Curiosity killed the cat” wrong, because not this cat. Harry has always got his nose into something, and somehow he manages to come out of it clean as a whistle. So good for you, Harry. Thanks for the exposition.

Morgan: I’ll give it to Dumbledore, and Harry was a close second, but I think Dumbledore was just so patient and calm, and I think he is doing the best that he can do with the information that he has, so I loved his explanations.

Andrew: Yeah, the way he handled Harry visiting his memories, like you said, he was very calm. Harry was asking a lot of questions that he answered very well. And talking about, just a few minutes ago, how he handled explaining the Longbottoms to Harry too. I mean, I thought Dumbledore was just masterful in this chapter, so I plus one this MVP of the week choice.

Micah: Masterfully vague.

[Morgan laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can call us with an old school telephone. The number is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. We do prefer the voice memos; they sound much better audio quality-wise. And no matter how you call us, please keep your message around a minute so that we can fit in as many voicemails as possible in a future Muggle Mail installment. And next week – ugh – Goblet of Fire Chapter 31, “The Third Task” in which no one saw this coming.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Fakey did.

Andrew: The important people who could have stopped it didn’t see it coming.

[Micah laughs]


Quizzitch


Andrew: So now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Micah: All right, last week’s Quizzitch question: At Ludo Bagman’s trial, what Quidditch match does a jury member congratulate him on? And the correct answer was England versus Turkey. Last week’s winners include Buff Daddy; Dumby + Pizza Hut = happiness…

[Andrew gasps]

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “That is so true.”

Micah: … Elizabeth K.; I fall asleep listening to Jim Dale every night is that bad?; hot-goat-summer; How did Buckbeak get into Sirius’s cave because the opening was barely big enough for the trio…

Andrew: Huh.

Micah: … I only remember the answer because of the way Jim Dale says “Turkey” in the audiobook…

[Morgan laughs]

Micah: That’s not how he says it. Well, actually, I’ve never listened, so I don’t know. Jenpen1013; Knock the stuffing out of the Turkey with a rogue Bludger; Ooh, I heard it through the Snapevine…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … Quaffle and waffle; and Robbie.

Andrew: I heard he actually screams “Turkey” in the audiobook; that’s why it sticks with people. It’s just so random.

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: He’s just like, “England versus TURKEY!”

Micah: [laughs] Does he say it in that New Jersey accent?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh my God, never accuse me of having a New Jersey accent again.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: All right, next week’s Quizzitch question: Which Weasley family members are not present for the third task? You must list them all. And of course, you can submit your answers over at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you and Morgan. Thanks for joining us again today, Morgan, and thanks for your support on Patreon. We really appreciate it.

Morgan: Oh, thank you. This was so much fun. Thank you for having me.

Andrew: We thankfully don’t have a Ministry of Magic or a Fudge running this show; we’re just everyday Muggles conjuring an independent podcast, but that means we need support from listeners like you. So how can you help us out? If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, including one we’re about to record after today’s episode. Check out the last bonus MuggleCast released last week, too, in which we’re discussing the latest video game news. So there’s that, but then there’s also Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and don’t forget, you can get our new 19 Years Later T-shirt, only available by pledging at the Slug Club level at Patreon.com/MuggleCast before July 19. And don’t forget that you also need to fill out that form. New and existing patrons must fill out the order form, because we’ve got to know your address and we’ve got to know your shirt size. We got shirts for everyone, and we got sizes from extra small to 5XL. So there will be a shirt for everyone, but we need you to fill out that form with peace and love, peace and love. July 19 for the 19 Years Later T-shirt. Thank you with peace and love.

Micah: Peace and love.

[Morgan laughs]

Andrew: And thanks again for your support! We couldn’t do it without you.

Micah: And just a quick reminder, in a few weeks from now, Eric, Chloé, and myself will be at LeakyCon, July 5-7, taking place at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. We have some dates and times to share with you all, so if you’re going to be out in Portland, please join us for the MuggleCast meetup, which is taking place on Friday, July 5. Then we also have a podcaster mega panel and a live MuggleCast taking place on Saturday, and to close out the convention, a joint LeakyMug with Pottercast on Sunday, July 7. For all the information related to the convention, head over to LeakyCon.com, and if you haven’t registered yet, you can do so using code “Muggle” to get a nice little discount on your tickets.

Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. And Morgan, where can listeners find your podcast, That Nerd Thing?

Morgan: They could find it anywhere that they listen to podcasts, and then you can also follow the show on social media at @ThatNerdThingPod.

Andrew: Well, thanks again, Morgan. And thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Morgan: And I’m Morgan.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Micah and Morgan: Bye.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] Bye.

Micah: Bye, Dumby.

Transcript #662

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #662, Potter or Pizza? (GOF Chapter 29, The Dream)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Get ready to be undoubtedly stimulated by the extraordinary clairvoyant vibrations of this podcast because this week we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 29, “The Dream.” And to help us with this week’s discussion is one of our Slug Club patrons, Feryal! Welcome, Feryal, to MuggleCast.

Feryal: Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

Andrew: It’s a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for your support over the years; we really appreciate it. And to kick things off, why don’t we get your fandom ID?

Feryal: Sure. So my Hogwarts house is Ravenclaw. My Ilvermorny House is Horned Serpent. My Patronus is a fox. My favorite book is Half-Blood Prince. My favorite movie is the Deathly Hallows – Part 1 and 2 combined. And my favorite character is Dumbledore because I also worship chaos, just like he does.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I love it.

Eric: Oh, you’re that kind of Ravenclaw. Okay.

Feryal: I am that kind of Ravenclaw. [laughs]

Andrew: This is why Feryal is on this week. I was like, “I can’t take it anymore. I need an assistant to help me, to help me back up Dumbledore.”

[Feryal laughs]

Laura: Hey, we’ve got a majority Ravenclaw panel today, so I’m excited for that.

Feryal: Nice.

Andrew: Couple of announcements before we jump into Chapter by Chapter: First of all, as we announced at the very beginning of last week’s episode, we have a brand new pop culture podcast that’s available right here in this feed; it’s called What the Hype?! We’re exploring different areas of pop culture each week. The feedback has been really great so far, so thank you to everybody who has listened, and if you haven’t listened yet, please do check it out. We think you will really enjoy it.

Eric: It’s so great to be doing a fresh, new, exciting podcast about even more topics about which we are passionate, so definitely worth the time. So far, we’ve heard nothing but wonderful things from our listeners who’ve given it a shot, including some lovely comments on social from people we weren’t expecting, so that’s very nice.

Laura: Yeah. We’re also on YouTube, so you can actually see the video versions of these shows on YouTube. We’re also going to have some extra content that we put up in the form of reaction videos to shows that are coming out right now and in the months ahead. So if you’re clamoring to see somebody talk about the show that you just watched that you need to talk to somebody about, but you don’t have a friend who’s super into Bridgerton, for example, we will be your Bridgerton friends. Come check us out on YouTube.

Feryal: Just finished watching Season 3 today, so I will listen to the Bridgerton one, yes.

Andrew: Awesome!

Laura: Yep, you’ve got to check them out. They’re so fun.

Micah: The show is so good that I was outed by one of my colleagues in the midst of a work meeting. We told this story on Millennial this past week, but I have many a colleague that have now signed up to subscribe to What the Hype?!, and they’re very intrigued by it. They really like the concept, and they’re going to be listening to future episodes.

Andrew: Awesome, good. And we’re tooting our own horns here…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … but I will say, it is a new show. We’re very receptive to feedback, so if you have any, please do let us know. It will be a journey for all of us, but we came up with a format that we’re very excited about, and we hope you enjoy it, too, and we’ll continue to improve as time goes on.

Eric: Honestly, here’s a bet with the audience: Give me 60 seconds of your time. Click on any episode of What the Hype?!; you’re going to hear the theme song…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … and if you can put the show down after you hear our best theme song that we’ve ever done, better than the, I mean, even… I don’t want to say, but it’s up there with the MuggleCast theme song for one of the coolest podcast theme songs.

Andrew: Yeah, this What the Hype?! one, we actually paid for.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I mean, I don’t remember how we got “Arry” by Advanced Potion-Making, and they were cool with letting us use that for MuggleCast. I don’t remember or know that story, but…

Andrew: [laughs] I think we just said, “Can we have that song? That’s cool.” They were like, “Yeah.” We were like, “Okay, cool.” And that was it. [laughs]

Eric: So thanks to Advanced Potion-Making, and also thanks to the guy we paid to do the What the Hype?! song.

Andrew: All right, check out WhatTheHypePodcast.com for more details about the show. Also, actually, honestly, MuggleCast has been cooking over the last couple of months, because not only have we been working on that, but we have been working on this year’s annual gift for MuggleCast patrons, and we are very excited to reveal it this week. This year’s physical gift for Slug Club patrons is the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt!

Eric: Yay!

Andrew: Da-da-da-da-da!

Laura: It looks so cool.

Andrew: So longtime listeners of the show might know that back in 2005 we created what we later ended up calling the MuggleCast Squares T-shirt design, and it’s got silhouettes of the original MuggleCast co-hosts. Well, now we’ve recreated that design, but with the four MuggleCast co-hosts that join you every week; we’ve updated the design. We’ve popped in some very nice new colors, and it says “19 Years Later” at the bottom. It’s got, of course, the iconic mic bolt on the front too. It’s a really awesome T-shirt. It’s going to be the same T-shirt brand and style that we used for the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt that Eric is modeling off right now. It’s very comfortable, right, Eric? It’s a nice shirt.

Eric: Very comfortable. Indeed.

Andrew: And it’s held up for the last four or five years, so we were like, “Let’s use the same shirt, because we know we can depend on it.” [laughs]

Eric: If it ain’t broke.

Andrew: If it ain’t broke, we’ll get you another one, but with a different thing on the front of it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That’s our tagline this year.

Eric: I’m so glad we’re not doing mugs this year.

Andrew: Yes, those are breakable.

Eric: I say that every year.

Andrew: [laughs] Check it out; it’s a very cool design. You’ll see it on social media. If you are not a patron right now, you can sign up at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Join at the Slug Club level, and you will become eligible to receive the T-shirt in a couple of months. We need you to be a patron for a couple of months before we send you the T-shirt. Existing patrons are already able to fill out the form, and we will get a shirt to you hopefully late July, early August. Probably, actually, sometime in August, just in time for our 19th birthday. So yeah, we thought we had to do a 19 Years Later T-shirt, because this is the epilogue year. This is MuggleCast’s epilogue year.

Eric: Not to say that we’re ending. We plan to keep going.

Andrew: Of course, of course.

Eric: But this is the year where we embrace being middle-aged.

Andrew: Yes.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: And when we create spinoffs, they won’t suck.

Andrew: Oh, okay. Can we do a stage show?

[Feryal and Laura laugh]

Eric: In two parts.

Laura: Can you imagine?

Micah: Well, isn’t What the Hype?! our spinoff?

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: It’s great. Check it out now.

Andrew: Of course, by pledging on Patreon, you don’t just get a T-shirt; you also get access to our livestreams, ad-free MuggleCast, early access to MuggleCast episodes, a Zoom hangout with the four of us, the MuggleCast Collector’s Club… there’s lots of benefits, so check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We couldn’t do it without you. And you also get bonus MuggleCast episodes, and we’re recording a new one this week after we finish recording Episode 662. We’ve got some video game news to talk about. There’s updates to Hogwarts Legacy, and finally, the Quidditch game has a release date, so we’ll talk about all that in bonus MuggleCast this week.

Micah: And just one news item I wanted to bring up: It’s not often that worlds collide for me – even though I just mentioned one of my colleagues outing me about What the Hype?! during a work meeting – but this was a little bit of news over the last week or so. As some listeners may know, the Boston Celtics are in the NBA Finals, and they swept the Indiana Pacers prior to getting there, so they actually had a lot of time in between the end of the Eastern Conference Finals and the start of the NBA Finals. And a reporter asked one of their guards, Jaylen Brown, a question, and that question was, “What are you doing with your spare time?” And he said, “Well, I’m not like the other guys; I’m single, I don’t have a family, so I’ve been binge-watching Harry Potter.”

Andrew and Laura: Aww.

Laura: That’s so sweet.

Micah: And yeah, favorite character is Dumbledore, and he actually really likes Hermione. And more to come there, I think. But it was very cool.

Andrew: [laughs] More to come?

Eric: So the next step is you’re going to get his phone number.

Andrew: Yeah, get him on MuggleCast. We all fell into Harry Potter the same way. We were all single and bored, and we were like, “Oh, this Harry Potter book looks good. Let me give it a try.”

[Eric and Feryal laughs]

Eric: We were single because we were 14.

Micah: But it’s very cool because you still see – we mentioned Kierra earlier – but Harry Potter still being new and fresh to people and getting to enjoy it for the first time. And everybody seems to enjoy the series; it’s not just limited to one particular group of people.

Andrew: Yeah. That’s a good reminder.

Feryal: That’s true.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 29, “The Dream.” And we’ll start with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Oh, it’s me to start. Crap. I should’ve thought of this in advance. [laughs]

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: “Crap.”

Andrew: No, no. Sirius…

Laura: … grounds…

Feryal: … Harry…

Micah: … because…

Eric: … he…

Andrew: … is…

Laura: [laughs] What do I do here?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Naughty.

Andrew: Gutsy.

Micah: Stupid.

Laura: Naughty, okay.

Micah: Reckless.

Eric: Naughty. There we go.

Laura: I like naughty. I like naughty. At first, I was like, “Wait, are we going to say because he is Daddy? Because Sirius is stepping in as the father figure?” But honestly, saying he is Daddy has a different connotation.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: He is “naughty” is much better.

Andrew: And “naughty Daddy” would be even worse.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I like this seven-word summary. It’s kind of like the pot calling the kettle Sirius Black a little…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … but we’ll get into that when Harry gets his letter.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So yes, the chapter opens with some plot stuff. We’re just kind of going to skip it out, skip over it for time, because it’s the trio discussing Crouch and the disappearance of the previous chapter. But what I find really enjoyable is that in this chapter, as our seven-word summary alludes to, Harry is grounded, but not just by Sirius. It’s by Moody – or Fakey – as well, but for different reasons. So one of the first things the trio does is go and find Mad-Eye Moody; they want to know if he successfully found Crouch Senior, but he says, “Nope, I didn’t.” And it’s kind of a shame, because it seems like that mystery was coming toward closure, that we were going to have some resolution there, or some exciting answers, but we don’t.

Micah: No, we don’t. But in talking about Moody, I did want to bring something up because I was listening to last week’s episode, and sometimes you have those moments, when you’re re-listening to episodes, about, “Wait, how did we not bring this up? How did we not talk about this?” And I do recognize that we see Fudge a little bit later in this chapter, and we do get a bit of a touch point with the Ministry, but where in the world is the Ministry the night that this takes place? Why didn’t Dumbledore sound the alarm literally the minute he found Krum Stunned and Barty Crouch, Sr. missing? I think there should have been a massive forest search party, no bone unturned.

[Everyone laughs]

Feryal: Oh, boy.

Andrew: Serious question: Would the search party in the forest involve the kids? Or are we talking adults only, Ministry…?

Micah: No, I’m talking about a full-blown Ministry search. Thinking back to what happened at the Quidditch World Cup, get the Aurors in here. I understand Mad-Eye is here, but I’m talking about like when you call the police and the police show up to investigate something. [laughs] I know it’s Hogwarts, but come on.

Laura: [laughs] And that’s your answer, honestly. I was going to say, are you surprised that Dumbledore didn’t stop to think “Maybe we should call in some kind of law enforcement or Aurors, investigators, somebody”?

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Feryal and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, the sound effect is back.

Laura: Thank you for that. Yeah, it’s typical. Typical Dumbledore.

Eric: Yeah, it makes… it’s funny because people keep just being like, “Oh, Dumbledore is the safest person,” or Crouch, for instance, when he was next to death was still like, “Dumbledore! Got to see Dumbledore!” Everyone knows Dumbledore is so good, it’s probably gotten to Dumbledore’s head where he’s like, “Why would I call the Ministry? They’ll only get in my awesome way.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: And Crouch wanted to specifically see Dumbledore, right?

Andrew and Eric: Right.

Micah: He was seeking him out in particular. But Dumbledore is all good with tasking Moody with the responsibility and going back up to the castle, so it just… it was something that came to mind when I was listening last week.

Laura: I guess it does say something that Crouch wanted to go to Dumbledore and not Fudge.

Eric: Right, he could have really tried to make it to the Ministry, where he would have been maybe even more protected.

Andrew: But also, think about… I guess time is of the essence here, and sure, they could send a message to the Ministry. You would think Dumbledore’s got a bat phone in his office where he can quickly reach them…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I love that.

Andrew: … but Dumbledore might be thinking “It’s faster if we take matters into our own hands rather than getting the Ministry out here.” Feryal, it looks like you may have wanted to make a comment here, and I want to give you the floor since you’re a Dumbledore super fan.

Feryal: I just wonder how much of it plays into… I mean, this comes up in the later books when we see when Dumbledore found the Horcruxes, and he seems to have a little bit of morbid curiosity when it comes as well. Even before he tells anyone about the Horcruxes, he gets affected. But he had the ring and then the ring curses him, and then he gets Snape involved and Snape is like, “Dude, why didn’t you come to me first?”

[Eric laughs]

Feryal: And Dumbledore is like, “Oh, I thought I could handle this on my own, because I’m Dumbledore.” So I wonder if a lot of… I love Dumbledore, but he’s a little bit of a megalomaniac sometimes as well, so maybe he thought he was the most qualified person to handle it because that is…

Andrew: On his own school grounds.

Feryal: On his own school grounds, yeah. He comes across very humble, but as you find out later, I don’t think humility is one of his defining characteristics, so maybe he wanted to handle it on his own first.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and to be fair, he probably wants to keep the Ministry out of Hogwarts as much as possible because we see what happens in the next book when the Ministry does get their fingers in the mix and what things at the school look like at that point, so…

Eric: Well, and pulling that thread a little further, couldn’t Crouch have gone out of his way to try and get to the Ministry? I’m thinking he’d be more protected there because of colleagues, coworkers, right? If he’s out in the open. But then it occurred to me that, oh, Dumbledore is probably the only person – the only adult wizard – who would take the threat of Voldemort seriously enough for what Crouch needs to convey. The fact that… Crouch Senior knows Voldemort is back in some form, having been placed under his curse or been trapped by him all these months, and so it does make sense that he would identify Dumbledore as being the person he could tell about that, because even if there’s more people at the Ministry, none of them are officially going to believe him, necessarily.

Feryal: Near the end of the chapter, too, when Fudge is talking to Dumbledore, doesn’t Fudge bring up the fact that he doesn’t think there’s any connection between Crouch disappearing and Bertha’s disappearance?

Eric: He’s unwilling to link the two.

Feryal: Yeah, I think whatever correspondence has been happening between Fudge and Dumbledore, Fudge is already really skeptical about whatever conclusions Dumbledore is drawing, so that probably played into it too.

Laura: Yeah, I agree. And I think that for all the negative things that we can say about Crouch Senior – and we’ve certainly shared some of them in the last couple of episodes – he is first and foremost concerned about Dark wizards and their activities, and I find it really hard to believe that he would have no idea that there are former Death Eaters among the ranks at the Ministry. He knows a lot of the ones who got let off, and a lot of the names who kind of skirted by because they never got officially caught, so he also knows that there are people working at the Ministry who are sympathetic to Voldemort’s cause, and if they were presented with even a small sign that he might be coming back, might not be advantageous for him to share.

Eric: Well, and that makes me wonder, does he not know where his own son is? It’s getting to be like, 9:00 p.m. Doesn’t he know where Barty Crouch, Jr. is?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The fact that he’s employed by Dumbledore at the moment… it strikes me that Crouch Senior may actually not know that by going to Hogwarts, he’s putting himself directly in front of his son who wants to end him. It seems like a crazy oversight if he doesn’t realize that his son… because he knows his son escaped, because at the Quidditch World Cup, that’s obvious that Winky is not with him. So he has to assume that his son is out there somewhere. Maybe he thinks he’s safest with Dumbledore. Again, it goes back to being safest as Dumbledore, but nobody, I guess, suspects that Barty Crouch, Jr. is right there.

Laura: Yeah. But Senior is also under the Imperius Curse at this point.

Eric: Well, he’s escaped it.

Laura: Well, he’s fighting it.

Eric: But the fighting it part, not the succumbing to it part, is what drove him to Hogwarts.

Laura: Right. But I don’t know that he would necessarily make the connection that that’s where Barty Crouch, Jr. was. I mean, for all we know, he might have thought that he was just on the lam. He was just running away, hiding out.

Micah: It’s not like the movie. [laughs]

Laura: Who knows if he knows the extent of the plans, right?

Eric: It’s definitely not like the movie. Yeah, that’s for sure.

Laura: No. [laughs]

Eric: Speaking more of the Ministry here, when the trio do get to Moody’s office and they do get to talk to him, Moody is the one that says, “The Ministry actually has it handled from here, Potter. Nice work. You should be focusing, Harry, on the third task,” and Fakey actually deputizes Ron and Hermione. He’s like, “You two, help him with the curses. Help him figure it out. And don’t worry, Potter, the adults are taking it,” and he literally convinces Harry that everything’s fine; it’s going to be handed over to the Ministry. And so by telling him not to try and explore further, Fakey himself is taking the heat off of himself, because it was such a close call in the last chapter between Harry discovering what Fakey was doing, and now this is a really clever way, I think, of diffusing all of that heat, is by telling Harry, “Hey, I’m an ex-Auror. The Ministry is going to take it here, Potter. You don’t need to worry about it.”

Andrew: Yeah, and he does take the heat off himself, but I’m also wondering if Fakey is a little spooked, because he is impressed by Harry and Hermione’s investigative work; he even says that they should be Aurors. I’m wondering if he was actually a little scared. But yes, you’re right, and I think being kids, they’re inclined to believe what the trusted authority figure is saying about the government. They’re just not going to think about it any further. This is Moody; he’s a respectable figure who Dumbledore loves or respects.

Feryal: I think this is the first time that the kids have any reason to… after we find out everything about Moody, it’s the first time they actually have a reason to distrust authority explicitly, especially finding out that there’s nefarious things going on within the Ministry. Because if I remember before this, the only antagonistic relationship Harry had with any teacher is Snape, but that’s just because Snape singled him out all the time. And Lockhart wasn’t much of a threat; he was just a doofus, and no one was taking him seriously.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Feryal: But after this book, in the next book, I think they’re already really primed to have that really hostile relationship that they end up having with Umbridge because they’re already… their antenna are probably really up after the betrayal with Moody comes out.

Laura: Yeah, for sure. Sets up Order of the Phoenix.

Micah: I really like, though, Andrew, your point about Moody being spooked, and the reason why I say that, too, is it’s noted in the text how he doesn’t appear to be his normal self. He’s tired, he’s disheveled, almost worn down to a point. And there’s a chapter in this book that’s titled “The Unexpected Task,” and I think this was definitely not on his radar in terms of things that he was going to have to handle during his time at Hogwarts.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And regardless of what his relationship has been to his father, this could not have been an easy thing for him to do. Happy Father’s Day, everybody, for those celebrating here in the US this weekend.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I think it is weighing on him, and it’s noticeable in his appearance. And he frequently sips his hip flask in this chapter. And shame on Hermione, by the way; can she not smell Polyjuice Potion? Is it odorless?

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Micah: I don’t think it is odorless. I think it stinks. And anyway, that’s for another time.

Andrew: That’s a good point, yeah. Fakey almost had his own Scooby-Doo “I would have gotten away with it if it weren’t for you meddling kids” moment. [laughs]

Eric: Right. You’re right. All of that is a good point, Micah, and I’m just loving how in this moment, Moody/Fakey gets to be the good guy. He’s the one who’s telling them that it’s good, that it got close, and he even reminds Ron and Hermione of their past laurels. He brings up that Hermione, too, should be an Auror. Secretly, inside he’s probably like, “Oh God, oh God, these kids are too good for their own good.” But he ultimately is able to remind them of their triumph figuring out how to get to the Sorcerer’s Stone. Ron is begging to be included in Moody’s praise here, and sort of gets in. But it’s through reminding the trio of their past successes that he’s able to misdirect or guide them instead to focusing on the third task, which is exactly what he wants. He wants them to… these people are a threat to him. He needs them focused somewhere else, and the third task is as good as any of a direction for them to be looking.

Laura: And what I love about this is he says, “Oh yeah, Dumbledore told me about everything you did to get to the Sorcerer’s Stone in your first year.” And knowing what we know, I think we can assume it was actually Voldemort who gave Barty Crouch, Jr. that information. [laughs]

Eric: Possibly, yeah.

Laura: I just don’t see Dumbledore being the type to bring Moody into the school, sit him down, and be like, “So let me tell you about some crazy stuff these kids did four years ago.”

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Get a load of this.”

Laura: I mean, they freed Sirius Black last year. They solved the Chamber of Secrets the year before that. It just seems odd that Dumbledore would just bring that up, so it feels like background context that Voldemort gave to Crouch Junior to get closer.

Eric: More discussion in a moment on this awesome chapter, but let’s hear a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Andrew: One thing that Harry mentions is it seemed very clear to him that Barty, he had lost his mind. Something was very wrong with him. But when he was talking about the need to see Dumbledore, that’s when he seemed sanest. And I was wondering what y’all made of that. Is it because it happened most recently in everything that he’s talking about? Is it because it’s of the utmost importance to see Dumbledore? Why does he speak about Dumbledore with such clarity, and does this even matter? I just… that struck me, that he was coherent when it came to Dumbledore, about the need to see Dumbledore, but everything else was…

Micah: Yeah. This is just me… the way I’m looking at this is we’re looking… well, we’re all looking at this through Harry’s perspective, so what’s important to Harry becomes important to us, and I think maybe the only thing familiar to Harry that really made any sense was this Dumbledore moment. It may not… I don’t know. Maybe… do you know what I’m trying to say? It’s the familiarity of hearing Dumbledore’s name that likely led him to feel like this was when Crouch was the most sane, as opposed to other moments where perhaps he was sane, but Harry just doesn’t have the same level of familiarity with it.

Laura: Yeah. I’m actually looking at that part of the chapter, and I think part of it might be that for a lot of this interaction or experience Harry has with Crouch Senior, he’s not in the present tense. He’s talking about things that happened sometimes 15 years ago, sometimes eight months ago, but now all of a sudden he’s talking about needing to see Dumbledore now, and that’s a present-day touchstone that Harry can understand. It’s pretty clear that Crouch does not know where he is in terms of timelines throughout this. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, but the way it’s written is exactly the way Harry then says it is, that when his eyes stop rolling – or when he stops meandering, when he’s focused – he’s telling Harry that he needs to see Dumbledore. And so in the writing it’s a very clear distinction. Also, I think Harry has a sixth sense about this kind of thing. Harry has been waiting for the other shoe to drop. He’s been waiting to figure out what’s going on with You-Know-Who, and so the idea that Crouch would show up out of the blue, as surprising as that is, but then also be asking for Dumbledore, feels right. He’s not there to see anybody else. He’s not like, “Take me to see Madam Sprout.” Dumbledore just… it just feels like the most pressing matter, so I think Harry is more likely to treat that as with heavier weight, that it’s the more pressing and sane thing to be asking for.

Andrew: He can also just relate to the need to see Dumbledore. [laughs]

Eric: Can’t we all?

Andrew: It’s his own excuse.

Eric: Dumbledore needs to come out of his locked tower and spend more time with the children.

Andrew: Oh, we have ideas on that, but we’ll get to that later.

Eric: Yeah. So moving to the other person, the second adult that grounds Harry besides Moody, who says, “Focus on the task.” Sirius, the trio send him a letter. They bump into Fred and George when they do, and the letter comes back. And surprise, surprise, Sirius is starting to sound like Hagrid here a minute. He says, “It was a stupid idea for you to go walking in the woods with Krum.” But I don’t think he’s being racist; I actually think what he means is that “You are unguarded, unprotected, etc.” Sirius has very real concern for Harry’s safety, so his advice to Harry is, “Promise me that you won’t go out of Gryffindor tower at night. Send me a letter back telling me that you won’t go out at night.”

Andrew: “Confirm in writing,” yeah.

Eric: “And here are some charms to practice while you don’t do that other thing,” which is great.

Andrew: It must be painful for Sirius to have to take a back seat here in a way. He can’t just physically visit Harry on the grounds of Hogwarts and pull him away; he’s at the mercy of whatever Harry feels like doing one evening. So I can see why Sirius is so stressed about this, and as we know, he’s been very worried about something being afoot this entire book, pretty much.

Laura: I just think it’s funny that he thinks telling Harry “Write back and confirm that you won’t sneak out at night” is going to do anything.

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Eric: It kind of works. It does, though.

Micah: It should’ve been an Unbreakable Vow.

Eric: Oh, wow.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It should have been a pen that etches what you’re writing in blood on the back of your head.

Eric: Yeah, “I will not go out at night.”

Laura: Either that or your face erupts in pimples.

Feryal: This is getting really dark.

Micah: This is an interesting moment for Harry, though, because he hasn’t had a parental figure like this before…

Eric: Aw.

Micah: … and so defiance is an easy response when you haven’t had somebody to really tell you what you should be doing in the way that a parent does, so that is probably why he is a little bit frustrated here. And also, let’s remember who we’re talking about here: Sirius Black, one of the Marauders, one of the people who would just get out and do whatever he wanted around the grounds of the school late at night with his three best friends. So it’s a little bit tongue in cheek for Sirius to be telling Harry what to do, but…

Eric: It’s a little rich.

Andrew: But didn’t Harry have the same feeling in this chapter? He’s like, “Who’s he to talk?” and Hermione is like, “He cares!”

Eric: He’s mildly surprised, but Sirius does care. I think the fact that Sirius spent so much time out of the bounds and is telling Harry to stay put in the tower matters more. It has more meaning that Sirius is like, “No, you’ve got to stay safe,” because Sirius points out that rightly so, there is somebody very dangerous who is still running around Hogwarts completely unchecked.

Micah: Just like the last book. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, well… [laughs] But this time, that person actively put Harry’s name in the Goblet, and so presumably, is using that to get him in danger.

Micah: I will say I agree with you, Eric, about Sirius’s intentions here and the fact that someone is out to get Harry, and Krum’s headmaster just happens to be a former Death Eater, which Sirius informed Harry about. Why wouldn’t you be concerned? You don’t know what Krum’s intentions are. We all know he’s a good guy, right? We fleshed that out on last week’s episode. But it’s really reckless on Harry’s part, and he deserves to be reprimanded for it.

Laura: Yeah, like we said, Harry clearly doesn’t listen to true crime podcasts, and it shows.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So Harry begrudgingly does write that letter back. But what I love most about Sirius getting the opportunity to do some godfathering is that Sirius actually has a list of very real applicable things for Harry to study. So he’s grounding Harry, but he’s also like, “Here’s what you should work on.” And this is good, because if we remember way back to the fireplace conversation that Harry had with Sirius before the first task, Sirius was about to recommend how to overcome the dragon but then he couldn’t; he got cut off because Ron came into the room. This time, Sirius is able to finish his thought and actually give some advice to Harry about practical spells, things to practice specifically. And I just love it, because it’s a completed darn sentence that Sirius actually gets to do some godfathering here.

Andrew: There’s so many different directions he could go to prepare for the third task. To your point, it’s nice to be told, “Okay, here’s what you should really focus on. Just focus on these things.”

Eric: Yeah, he could get really into the weeds about what beasts might be there or whatever and then be looking up these beasts in books and things, but what Sirius gives him advice on is things like Disarming and Stunning, which can be used on a wide variety of stuff. They’re endlessly applicable. It’s just good defensive magic.

Feryal: I think it also makes a nice contrast to… Harry only has three people in the world that he’s actually listening to at this point, right? Ron, Hermione, and Sirius, and Sirius giving advice on practical hexes is a nice counterpoint to Hermione, whose advice tends to always be more practical. She goes out and goes into the books and does all the research, so it’s a nice balance. I mean, we have Ron, and bless his heart, but he’s not always offering particularly useful advice. [laughs] He does offer himself up for Stunning, so you have to give him that.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point, Feryal. I think that apart from chess, everything that Ron knows is learned by the same time, or at the same time, by Harry. Ron doesn’t offer, in terms of practical spells or training or teaching, anything that – and he can’t – anything that Harry doesn’t already know.

Feryal: Someone made a nice point in the Discord: “What if Sirius decided to guilt trip Harry by telling him about how his dad died?”

Andrew: “Here’s what happens when you get in trouble, when you don’t listen to rules.”

Feryal: “When you don’t listen to rules, your parents die, Harry.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And doesn’t Lupin do that to him in Prisoner of Azkaban? Or is that a movie-ism? I can’t remember.

Feryal: That’s in the book.

Laura: So he’s already gotten it from one Marauder. Can you imagine if he got that from Sirius too?

Eric: Eh, Sirius wouldn’t be that uncool. I know he’s still in his prison garb over there, but he’s…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: He commits other faux pas. Anyway, so we get to this brief scene where the trio are practicing their Stuns, and Ron is target practice, which is great. That’s fine. It’s good to make himself useful.

[Eric and Feryal laugh]

Eric: It hurts; apparently you can’t control where or how you fall, and Ron is getting sick of it, but he suggests Hermione try, and then she’s just like, “I think Harry’s got it.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s just a hilarious moment between these kids. It’s so fun.

Andrew: I mean, that’s a nice thing to do for a friend, to be willing to take Stuns for them so they can prepare for the task. I’m not sure I would give myself up that way. I think I’d suggest you go and maybe try the spells on a tree, the tree that Barty was talking to.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Would any of us do this for a friend?

Laura: No.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: If I came to any of you and said, “Hey, I’m in the Triwizard Tournament; I got thrown into it unwillingly. Dumbledore is making me go through.”

Feryal: For my best friend, yes, but no one else.

Micah: What’s in it for me?

Andrew: Eternal glory? [laughs]

Micah: That’s in it for you.

Andrew: By way of me, yeah.

Eric: By way of… [laughs]

Andrew: I’ll let you display the Triwizard Tournament cup in your room.

Eric: Just residual…

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: Oh, God. Oh, it’s like the Stanley Cup; it travels. The 30 friends that helped me win this cup get to have it.

Andrew: I’ll thank you in my victory speech before God. I want to thank Micah, God… [laughs]

Feryal: Wait, so none of you would do this just to be a nice friend?

Laura: No.

Eric: I would! Only because we’re at a school where they can grow bones back. What could go wrong?

Feryal: Exactly.

Andrew: Doesn’t mean it’s okay.

Feryal: All your friends who are listening to this podcast right now are going to be like, “Okay, so we know who not to rely on.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, “We’re never going to ask them.” But you know what? That’s just as well, because how often do you need to practice something that really, really is harmful? I will say, this reminds me a lot of stage combat, because you have to learn how to fall. There is a right way to fall, and you can make it look good, but it’s ultimately all in how you do it. There’s a safe way to do it. And so I think the thing with Stunning, and what Ron is getting at, is they’re not practicing any of that. [laughs]

Micah: Right. He even suggests Mrs. Norris or Dobby as a possible substitute for himself, and notes that “Wouldn’t Dobby do anything for you?” [laughs]

Laura: That’s so horrible.

Feryal: Oh, geez.

Micah: It is horrible. It speaks to Ron’s character.

Laura: But at the same time, Ron is doing the same thing that he is implying Dobby would do, so what’s he saying about himself?

Eric: That he’s less good a friend?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, Dobby is crazy loyal. I think the implication there is that Dobby is sort of Colin Creevey, a little obsessed with Harry, and that Ron is capable of making a self-preservational kind of denial.

Laura: Yeah, he doesn’t, though.

Micah: I think Ron just needs a bathroom break and a little bit of snack and he’d be fine.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, you could give him one right now.

Laura: We know they have test dummies anyway. Yeah, bathroom break.

Eric: Bathroom break. It’s time to hear more from more of our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: And it’s time to go to Divination class. Hooray. Who’s excited?

Andrew: Oh, let me put on my Trelawney glasses for this…

[Eric and Feryal laugh]

Andrew: And I can’t see anything. Yep, can’t see anything. All right, let’s do it.

Eric: Okay, okay. Well, we get up to Divination tower, and goodness, it’s hot. The lights are turned real low, the fire is there, and it’s time to talk about Mars and Neptune. Harry actually manages, I guess prior to class, starting to crack the window a little bit, and this only serves to make him, let’s say, tranquil. Do you guys remember ever going into a not well air-conditioned classroom on a hot summer day close to June, and just being like, “Man, I wish I were outside or not awake for this”?

Micah: Totally.

Laura: Yup.

Andrew: My high school didn’t have air conditioning, and then they built another high school in the same district, and they said, “We’re not putting air conditioning in this new high school either, because then that would be unfair.” [laughs] And I was like, “You’re darn right. Make them suffer just like we do at Shawnee.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: I don’t know how that’s okay that they did that, but also, was your school at the top of a hill? And did you have to walk up that hill both ways when you were leaving and…?

Andrew: No, luckily, I had a bus. They had big fans inside each classroom, so at least there was that.

Micah: Did the bus have air conditioning?

Andrew: Yeah, I guess so.

Micah: Or did you have to pull…? Do you remember the windows you used to have to, like, push together and pull down?

Eric: Oh, it was horrible!

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I do.

Laura: The worst.

Micah: But I had a class just like this, actually, my middle school French class. I had a teacher who also used to wear overwhelming amounts of perfume, so it would be not just warm, but very similar, actually, to Trelawney and the fragrances, so it just kind of overwhelms you. I remember getting dizzy, actually, after one class.

Andrew: Aw.

Eric: So nevertheless, the environment… and we’ll talk about whether or not it’s conducive to what happens. But Harry quickly hallucinates. [laughs] No sooner does class start than Harry finds himself having the dream that’s in the name of the title, so the eponymous event occurs. Harry is flying on the back of a large eagle owl; it delivers the news to Voldemort, Wormtail, and Nagini that Barty Crouch, Sr. is dead, although it’s not said that it’s Barty Crouch, Sr. They are in Crouch’s house, it turns out, and that was the base of operations for most of the year, and Voldemort… it’s very, very interesting, because all of a sudden we’re here present in a conversation just like the first chapter in this book. We are eavesdropping on a conversation between Voldemort and Wormtail, and really, for me, this brings back the moment of the first chapter of this book that it’s like no time has passed at all. You’re those same characters, Wormtail, Voldemort, and Nagini, and they’re talking about current events, including that Wormtail almost just got fed to Nagini, and instead they plan to feed Harry to her.

Andrew: Yeah, and Harry and the reader, they don’t know at this time that it’s Crouch Senior that Voldemort is speaking about.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But I wonder if Harry should have immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was Senior because of what just happened in the last chapter. I mean, it seems like he should be able to put the pieces together here at this point.

Laura: Right. And just wanted to point out something about Nagini eating people for dinner: So Voldemort doesn’t feed anyone to Nagini in this book, at least that we know of, but we definitely do get to see Nagini chow down on a certain Hogwarts professor in the first chapter of Deathly Hallows, so…

Micah: And I don’t know if it’s a symbolism, but snakes do eat rats. They eat mice, so…

Eric: Everybody eats mice, it turns out!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: In this book there’s so much. The owls are eating mice. Snuffles is eating mice.

Micah: Well, Wormtail is my point, but…

Eric: Oh, okay, I see what you’re doing. That’s funny. That’s really funny. Okay, so about this, the eagle owl in question is one that Harry actually witnesses traveling to Hogwarts a few chapters ago, so clever writing there. The biggest thing I want to point out from this whole dream sequence is that the point of view is kind of all over the place. Harry is actually riding on the back of the owl, which presumably he’s small, not the owl is gigantic. Then he’s kind of across the room from the bad guys. Voldemort is only ever really seen, like the back of his chair and an arm is sticking out with the wand. And then Harry is so directly in the middle of Voldemort’s casting of the Crucio Curse and Wormtail’s receiving of the Crucio Curse. So my question is, what’s going on with the point of view here? What’s happening?

Andrew: It is an interesting question, because we are getting the connection to Voldemort. I mean, because my gut says, “Well, this is what happens in dreams. Your perspective can change. It’s whatever your brain decides to do.” But since this is a connection of Voldemort, maybe there’s something else going on here.

Micah: It is strange. I also thought that maybe J.K. Rowling hadn’t fully fleshed out how the Horcrux connection was going to work, and so that’s why it’s a little bit all over the place.

Eric: It’s a good option. I also think that because maybe the fact that Harry’s point of view is across the room and then in Voldemort’s head is also because Voldemort is not fully himself yet; he’s still kind of more an aura. He has a body, but not the body that’s going to go around in the future. So maybe that sort of etherealness that’s still clinging to Voldy is why Harry is on the owl and across the room.

Micah: Right. I mean, we do see his ability to tap into other Horcruxes because this comes into play in Order of the Phoenix when he tells Dumbledore, “No, I was the snake,” and that doesn’t really jive with what’s going on here. Because as you pointed out, Eric, first he’s on the owl, then he’s in the room, then he’s also actually experiencing the pain that Wormtail is feeling. So that’s a little bit strange to me, too, that he would… why? He doesn’t have a connection to Wormtail, not yet. Or I guess he does; he has the…

Eric: Oh, yeah, the blood…

Micah: The pact, or whatever you want to call.

Andrew: Could that pain be Voldemort’s joy or excitement?

Eric: Yes, that’s a good thing. And maybe when you cast the Cruciatus Curse correctly, you feel, in some ways, the pain that you’re inflicting. So Harry is only connected to Voldemort, but he’s connected directly to Voldemort, and so if Voldemort is feeling… he’s feeling Voldemort’s joy, and he might be… maybe Voldemort is actively using… Occlumency? Legilimency? Legilimency, to also feel Pettigrew’s pain at the same time that he’s torturing him, which is sick, but explains it perfectly, I think.

Andrew: In terms of the owl, I mean, the owl could have just been him dozing off in class because of the heat and the incense. Maybe it’s not necessarily tied to Voldemort.

Eric: Yeah. So I’m also wondering if this is the moment when Voldemort might first really learn about the scar connection with Harry, unless there’s a spot in Order of the Phoenix where it’s specifically said that this is the moment when Voldemort figured it out. Harry leaves the dream in a panic; he leaves the dream in a panic because he feels that the scream that emanated from him that made all the kids in Divination freak out might be heard by Voldemort, and it’s a weird thing to put in the book if that’s not in fact what happens, that maybe, in the midst of torturing Pettigrew, Voldemort at this exact moment hears Harry screaming, and then is like, “Whoa, what? What was that?” a minute later.

Laura: Yeah, and I think we can probably draw some comparisons to Chapter 1 of this book. Harry also shoots awake at the end of his dream about what happens to Frank Bryce. And I think we’ve all had the experience of having an extremely vivid dream that the first couple seconds after you’re coming out of it, it takes a moment for your brain to calibrate and realize that’s not real, that wasn’t happening, or at the very least, it’s not happening right here in front of me.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. And Harry even says, I think, like, “Maybe Voldemort is in the drapes!” It’s kind of like astral projection or something that Harry is doing, but it’s because it’s the first time that this is really happening, besides the beginning of the year when he was already unconscious. The fact that Harry lapsed into unconsciousness or whatever just feels new and terrifying and scary for him. You know who’s thrilled, though? Trelawney. [laughs] Trelawney is thrilled.

Laura: ‘Course.

Eric: Something interesting finally happened!

Andrew: [imitating Trelawney] “What a show!”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yes, she’s grabbing her popcorn. She’s like, “Oh, I had the kettle on just for this.” And Harry bursts out there. But does somebody want to read the quote from the book of Trelawney getting excited? Because it’s very funny.

Andrew: I’m not going to do the Trelawney voice because it’s too much, but, “‘What was it, Potter? A premonition? An apparition? What did you see? […] You were clutching your scar!’ said Trelawney. ‘You were rolling on the floor, clutching your scar! Come now, Potter, I have experience in these matters!'”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “My dear, you were undoubtedly stimulated by the extraordinary clairvoyant vibrations of my room!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “If you leave now, you may lose the opportunity to see further than you have ever…” and Harry is just like, “No, I just have a headache. I need to get out of here. Bye.”

[Feryal laughs]

Eric: I love his sass so much. Harry gets a lot of love for his sass, but he’s like, “The only thing I want to see right now is a headache cure.” [laughs] And he bursts out. At this juncture I want to ask, what caused the dream?

Feryal: I have a theory I wanted to share. I wonder… and I think in this book, I know we’re assuming J.K. Rowling is still playing around with the scar connection. But do you think that at times when Harry is experiencing high levels of stress, this connection becomes a little more clear between them? Because right now he’s close to the third task, and he’s obviously extremely strung out because of getting getting to that point, and especially because in Book 5 when Voldemort actually has a physical body, that’s when the connection becomes really strong, but I wonder if that was also abetted by the fact that, in that book, he is processing Cedric’s death as well.

Andrew: Yeah, that makes sense. The high stress could be bringing your guard down a bit. And we were talking about earlier, the heat can be a factor, too; that could really wear you down. So I could see various elements. And just simply the stress of being in Trelawney’s class, anticipating hearing, “Oh, I’m going to die tomorrow.”

[Feryal and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Thanks, Trelawney.” Stuff like that.

Eric: It’s the perfect place to dissociate.

Laura: Yeah. Feryal, I think it’s a really great point that you make that stress makes Harry more vulnerable, especially when we pair it with the fact that we keep hearing throughout this book that Voldemort is getting stronger, so I think there is an association that can be made with that. And something smaller than I noted between Chapter 1’s dream and this dream is that Voldemort mentions Harry by his full name. He calls him Harry Potter.

Micah: Harry James? Oh.

Laura: [laughs] No, but talks about killing him, ultimately, in both of these dreams, and I wonder if it’s some combination of the stress factor that Feryal brought up, but also Harry and Voldemort’s connection growing stronger because Voldemort is getting stronger and Harry is getting more vulnerable due to the stress. Then Voldemort says his name, and it’s like something clicks. Is that a stretch?

Feryal: No.

Eric: Well, we get it when somebody says our ears are burning. It’s like there is a… we all have kind of a sixth sense when we feel like we might be being talked about, and then we walk across the room to that person, and they’re like, “Oh, we were just talking about you.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: It’s like, “Oh, that’s crazy.” Yeah, I wonder if this is more of an enhanced version of that.

Micah: And also, let’s not forget, I know Harry is very much concerned with the third task, but he also went through a fairly traumatic experience with Barty Crouch, Sr. That’s got to be in the back of his mind as well.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I don’t know, Micah, if you can’t see a Thestral because of it, is it really a traumatic experience?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Or just an inconvenience, right?

Eric: Does it pass the Thestral test or is it just Thursday? Come on, let’s go.

Micah: I do think it’s relevant that this is all taking place in Trelawney’s classroom, because let’s just go back one book prior; think about the prophecy that she gives only to Harry, so now he’s having a really meaningful and impactful dream in her classroom.

Andrew: But you can see why she’s so excited. He’s almost putting on a show for everybody.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Well, this is her career for the next 20 years. This will make her career. “Harry Potter came and had this prophetic vision.” She wants him to talk about the… it’s clearly a premonition; it’s clearly Harry has seen something, and I think that she’s so starved for any ounce of credibility catch, that she’s not at all upset that this was a disruption in class. She’s almost praying every day for something like this to happen.

Andrew: That’s why she keeps the heat up, for somebody to lose it.

Eric: That’s exactly it. And furthermore, I think part of her is right to say, “I created these circumstances,” or “The vibes of my class are what caused this.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because incense work that way; you’re kind of taken to a different place, and I think it’s part of the reason why the classroom is set up this way is to [imitating Trelawney] “enhance the inner eye.” If you won’t do it, I will, Andrew.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Trelawney] “Enhance the inner eye.”

Eric: There you go. Now do it with the glasses on.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: They don’t fit. [imitating Trelawney] “Enhance the inner eye!”

Eric: All right.

Laura: [laughs] It’s almost like the glasses bring it out.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Brings out the Voldemort in Trelawney.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: So despite making excuses and saying that he needs to go to the hospital wing, when Harry gets out of the class, he does not go to the hospital wing. Instead, he takes god-daddy Sirius’s advice.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “And if one more thing happens, go see Dumbledore”? He goes and sees Dumbledore. Everyone’s favorite character, some of us favorite character. One problem: Just like a few chapters ago, he can’t get in. And here’s where we start just guessing; he knows that Dumbledore at one point had a password that was sweet-themed, so Harry proceeds to roll through the Rolodex of all the Honeydukes sweets he can think of, finally landing on Cockroach Cluster, which gets the gargoyle to move. Pleading with the gargoyle does not do it. Saying it’s an emergency does not do anything. The only thing is trying to hack the password. Here’s a point that I wanted to bring up the last time we get stuck outside: Why does Dumbledore’s office even have a password? Why is it locked? Why isn’t it something where you can interface and be like, “I need to see the Headmaster”?

Andrew: [laughs] A little intercom.

Eric: Doesn’t Dumbledore serve at the pleasure of the students? Don’t they…? Isn’t it within their rights to seek him out?

Feryal: Dumbledore only serves at the pleasure of Dumbledore.

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Eric: Well, there’s that.

Laura: I think that’s fair.

Andrew: Bzzt. [imitating Dumbledore] “Oh, is this Pizza Hut? Is the pizza here?” [normal voice] “No, Headmaster. This is Harry.” [imitating Dumbledore] “Oh, okay, come on up, come on up. I’ll buzz you in.”

Eric: Yeah, we’ll buzz you in.

Andrew: “Damn, I was hoping it was the pizza.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But why is there…? Look, you can still go up and knock, but to password protect this doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

Andrew: Well, because he’s so busy, I can see why he needs some guardrails. I think the solution here is very simple: He needs a secretary. And we were wondering earlier in this book, what can the Goblet of Fire and the Sorting Hat do off season? The Sorting Hat could be Dumbledore’s secretary. Come on, that’s perfect.

Eric: I actually love that. I love that 100%. The Sorting Hat could see why somebody is going to see Dumbledore, and he could judge whether it’s important enough. [laughs]

Andrew: If it’s truthful… exactly, exactly.

Eric: The Sorting Hat could be there and be like, “Single riders only, here.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Really important, prioritizing lines to see the Head. There shouldn’t be a locked door to the Headmaster’s office period. There just shouldn’t be; it doesn’t make any sense. And furthermore, if you can guess his password, it’s not secure! So like, hello?

Laura: Right. I love the imagery that I’m imagining now of the Sorting Hat making the call on whether somebody gets to be admitted or if they’re being declined, but I think it would have to give that answer in song form. It would need to be a limerick of some sort that’s very creative, so it’s not just a yes/no type answer. [laughs] Got to keep the songwriting skills sharp throughout the year so that when the new Sorting comes around, it’s ready.

Eric: I’m trying to imagine what that would be like. It’d be like, [imitating the Sorting Hat] “When you first came up here, you were horrified, but now you’re denied” or something like that.

Laura: [laughs] Something like that.

Micah: I’m just imagining Barty Crouch, Sr. actually working his way up to Hogwarts and then just having a one-on-one conversation with the gargoyle because he can’t get through either.

Laura: [laughs] And he’s like, “Weatherby, let me through.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I mean, Fudge is up there. Did Fudge have to be told his password? No, Dumbledore probably expected the appointment and came down, or set his gargoyle to admit…

Micah: Hagrid probably picked him up by his throat and carried him up to Dumbledore’s office.

Eric: [laughs] That’s exactly it. Very Hagrid-like. Yeah, it just… I’m glad we could finally talk through why this is the thing because it shouldn’t be a thing.

Laura: I always thought that Dumbledore’s residence was attached to his office for some reason, so with that in mind, I could see why he needs a password. But I mean, it should still be easier to reach the headmaster, and you shouldn’t have to be as special as Harry Potter to get there.

Eric: Right, because if Harry is failing to get in, what about everyone else? [laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Well, just like any school, you can’t just walk up to the principal’s door and just mosey on in. You’ve got to see a secretary or some other… there’s some barrier in place. And yeah, this could be handled differently.

Eric: Yeah. So Harry does get up; we mentioned it’s currently “Cockroach Cluster.” But the door itself, there’s another door you can’t get through, and so again, there was no point in the password gargoyle. [laughs] But anyway, on the other side of the door, Harry is able to listen in. He hears that Fudge is suggesting that maybe Madame Maxime might be up to no good, because “Isn’t she kind of like Hagrid there, Dumbledore?” And it’s just the book where everyone’s racist.

Micah: Well, we begin to see Fudge’s character truly shine through. He’s ignorant – this got brought up a little bit earlier towards Bertha’s situation – and could seemingly care less about Barty Crouch, Sr. He’s very much the “Nothing to see here” guy, and we will see much more of that as we get into Order of the Phoenix. And the other thing I just wanted to bring up about this particular scene: It’s such a great example of Barty Crouch, Jr. playing with his food because he directly asks Fudge what he supposed happened to Barty Crouch, Sr. Literally the killer is right in the room, and he is amongst what’s supposed to be the best of the best of the wizarding world, the Minister for Magic, the Headmaster of Hogwarts, and he’s got ’em all fooled. Not one person is even suspecting that Moody is not who he appears to be.

Andrew: And he gets to play with his food because Dumbledore ordered Pizza Hut!

[Eric and Feryal laugh]

Andrew: Sorry.

Micah: Extra what? Pepperoni? Sausage?

Andrew: Extra sausage. [laughs]

Laura: Cheese crust, right? [laughs]

Andrew: Ah, I love stuffed cheesy crust pizza.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: Yeah. No, and I would just say here, to echo some of the points that have already been brought up, we’re going to continue to see Fudge really only care about optics and what optics are most favorable for him as Minister of Magic. He doesn’t want to deal with the fall-out or the negative perceptions that might come as a result of the truth getting out there, so in his mind, it couldn’t possibly be the truth, because if it were, then he would have to deal with it, and he would probably lose his job, which, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. [laughs]

Micah: Definitely. And we touched on this a little bit last week’s episode with both Molly and Hagrid, and I’m not saying that Fudge has always been “good,” but we do really get to see a different side to him here that… the characters are becoming more layered, I think, than the one-dimensional aspect that we’ve seen of them up until this point.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I agree completely. And it’s an increasingly complex set of obstacles that we see these characters have to navigate, and so they’re getting more complex because we see them being faced with more complex stuff.

Micah: And it’s “Welcome to adult conversation,” right? Harry is overhearing an adult conversation here.

Eric: Yeah, right. Yeah, no kids are there. I want to have an adult conversation with you all right now…

Laura: Uh-oh, are we in trouble?

Eric: Now that we know this is the chapter where Voldemort finds out that Barty Crouch, Sr. has been killed – Junior did his job – this is a “What if?” segment. We haven’t done this in a while, and I think there’s a sound effect!

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Micah: It’s just like Trelawney’s classroom.

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Eric: Smell the incense. What if Barty Crouch, Sr. had not fired Winky after the events of the Quidditch World Cup? So Barty Crouch, Sr. has had a rough time since the Quidditch World Cup, and the only person who’s had a rougher time is Winky, who he fired. We got to see her in the last chapter, and she’s not doing well. But my question is, knowing what’s happened now with Crouch Senior being imprisoned in his own home, placed under the Imperius Curse, and Wormtail was directed by Voldemort to keep an eye on him. He’s only just now in May escaped, so he’s been prisoner for like, seven months. If Winky were at all able to go back and check on her old master, whether the magic prevents her or if she had just done it, would Winky have actually been able to save Barty Crouch, Sr. from his fate?

Andrew: I think given her loyalty to him she would have done everything in her power to do so.

Eric: Good point.

Andrew: And I would say there’s a good chance that that would have happened, and that’s kind of the tragedy of of all this: He lost Winky, and then he loses his life.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I feel like Winky would have tried to get help.

Andrew: Yeah, done something to move the ball.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, she wouldn’t have really been a match for Crouch Junior and Voldemort, possibly even Wormtail…

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: I mean, I’m not crapping on Winky; we just don’t really… we also don’t really get to see her magical abilities too much. And at any rate, she’d be outnumbered, right?

Eric: Well, we constantly see wizards underestimate the type of magic that other creatures have, though, that other beings and creatures…

Andrew: What if it was a butterbeer-drinking competition, though? Would she win that?

Laura: Oh, she’d win, hands down.

Eric: She would win, yeah. No, Voldemort would be drowned.

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Eric: His little body just…

Andrew: [imitating Voldemort] “I can’t compete with this house-elf!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “This girl can put ’em down!”

Eric: Yeah, yeah. But I think you’re right; I think Winky would get help. And this is the crazy thing, is because Dumbledore has taken in Winky, and by taking in, he just permits her to be at Hogwarts because… there’s no evidence that he ever really had a heart-to-heart with Winky, but if he had ever encouraged her to, I don’t know, go and see her master, or if Dobby was a good friend and he’s not so gung-ho on freedom for Winky, I think Winky would have stumbled onto what’s really happening, because they’re doing it at Barty’s house. It’s their base of operations, and so Winky only need peek in to see who’s there, and she could have sounded the alarm this whole time, I think.

Feryal: I thought it set up an interesting point of view for a future book because in Deathly Hallows, there’s a very explicit character arc with Kreacher and everything, how he was treated by certain people in the Black family, and the larger implications of of that. And Hermione mentions that – I can’t quote her exactly – but she says something like, “I always knew wizards would one day pay for how they treated lesser creatures, how they underestimated them.” But I think this is almost foreshadowing how major that plot point becomes later with Kreacher is really fundamental, the relationship between him and Regulus and how all of that leads out.

Laura: We really are setting up so many of these larger themes for the rest of the series in this book.

Micah: One point that was made in the Discord – and it’s a question that I was actually wondering myself in this “What if?” scenario – it was brought up by PotionsPotentiator: Where would the loyalty be? To Barty Crouch, Jr. or Barty Crouch, Sr.?

Eric: That’s crazy. [laughs] That actually… I’m so glad Winky doesn’t have to figure that out.

Andrew: I’m going to say Senior…

Eric and Feryal: Yeah.

Feryal: Me too.

Andrew: … just because seniority. I think it would be just that simple.

Eric: Well, and if we’re… property ownership, which is a horrible way to look at it, but if you think of the way that house-elves are handed through property, the owner of the house – which is more likely to be Senior than Junior – would be able to control.

Andrew: Right. Let’s say Lucius and Draco have a disagreement about what Dobby should be doing next. Who’s Dobby ultimately going to be listening to? Lucius.

Feryal: Right.

Eric: I mean, he’s also more scared of Lucius, I’m sure. But still, yeah, it makes perfect sense to me.

Laura: Fair enough, yeah. And I mean, also, we see in the very last chapter she was speaking about how she handled much more for Crouch Senior than just typical housekeeping duties, that she held on to his most dangerous secrets or something like that. So I think even if you took seniority out of the equation, it really seems like her alliance is really more with Crouch Senior. I think Crouch Junior gets it by extension; we see that a little bit later, but that’s after Senior has died, so I think at that point there’s a transference, right? Of who her loyalty lives with.

Eric: The only thing that gives me pause when asking the question could Winky have figured this out, warned Hogwarts, at the very least, and/or saved her master in time, is that Voldemort does actually have a track record of getting the W over house-elves. I’m thinking of Hepzibah Smith’s… was it Pokey the house-elf? Is framed for Hepzibah’s murder. I don’t know what sort of interaction would have happened specifically between young Tom Riddle and the house-elf, but knowing that Tom Riddle and now Voldemort are at least aware of them puts them above other wizards in terms of being able to predict what sort of danger they might be in from them. But yeah, I think for the most part, had Winky been able to go back to Crouch Manor, she would have probably been able to interfere in a positive way.

Laura: I mean, that’s just the tragedy behind it, like you were saying at the top.

Andrew: Exactly.

Eric: And that is our “What if?” segment for the episode.


Odds & Ends


Eric: And now it’s time to do some odds and ends. So here’s a little joke that’s kind of funny and foreshadowy: In the owlery, when they’re about to send the letter to Sirius, they bump into Fred and George sending their own letter, and Ron wants to know what it’s about, George and Fred are not telling him, and George tells Ron that if he keeps acting like their older brother, Percy, he will be made a prefect. And Ron is like, “No, I won’t!” But actually, we know that that’s just what happens. The beginning of the next book Ron is made a prefect. [laughs]

Andrew: And what stood out to me about this is that Ron is taking it as a bad thing to be a prefect; that’s how Fred and George have conditioned him at this point, and it’s sad.

Eric: You’re right.

Feryal: Do Fred and George have a specific issue with just overachievement or academic overachievement? Because they end up being overachievers with the success of the joke shop.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Andrew: Yeah, so academic.

Eric: I think their problem is oversight. They don’t want oversight. They don’t want anyone looking over their shoulder.

Feryal: [laughs] That’s right.

Andrew: And definitely not one of their brothers.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Like, “We’re better than you.”

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to… it’s really about Percy, right? Percy is the thing that’s being thrown at Ron here, not really the prefect, because Bill and Charlie were both prefects as well, and presumably Fred and George get along with them just fine. Maybe it’s a being left out thing, not that they would ever want to be prefects, but can you imagine? But yeah, I think it’s the tie to Percy that probably gets Ron in this moment more than anything.

Eric: That’s a good point. Good point. So also in this chapter, Trelawney has the Divination students examining the placement of Mars. This really harkens back for me to “Mars is bright tonight.” Books 1, 4, and 7 – so the first, the last, and the one right in the middle – all have Harry facing down present-day Voldemort, and Mars being the God of War, and particularly what the centaurs see Mars for is, it’s sort of foreshadowing of the wizarding war that’s coming up. Just really love the placement and positioning of Mars right now in this book.

Andrew: Yeah, cool shout-out.

Eric: And Micah, you had one?

Micah: Yeah, this was actually a fun one that gets mentioned at the start of the chapter because the trio are trying to figure out whodunnit, and they bring up Snape because, of course, Snape got in Harry’s way. And Harry makes the point that unless Snape has the ability to turn into a bat, there’s no way he would have been able to get from where he ran into him inside of Hogwarts to the forest in time to have taken out Barty Crouch, Sr., and then Ron responds something along the lines of, “Wouldn’t put it past him.” So this is fun, of course, because Snape does turn into a bat in Deathly Hallows

Eric: Still one of the most perplexing moments.

Andrew: Well, he doesn’t… does he turn into a bat, or he just looks like a bat? I thought he just looks like a bat.

Eric: It’s like a bat-shaped hole, but he doesn’t quite… yeah, or a Snape-shaped hole? I forget what the phrase is.

Andrew: But yeah, the bat does come back.

Micah: We’ll look it up. I’m sure the Discord will…

Eric: But no, there’s tons of “Snape is a vampire” theories.

Andrew: Right, right.

Eric: They’re there for a reason; it’s because that’s always been sort of the descriptor for Snape, so it’s pretty fun that Harry throws it out here.

Laura: And multiple times he’s described as looking like an oversized bat, so yeah, this is fun. Something related to the passwords that Harry was trying to get into Dumbledore’s office: The one that was ultimately successful, “Cockroach Cluster,” is a Monty Python reference. Monty Python, for anyone who doesn’t know, very famous British comedy troupe that J.K. Rowling is a fan of, and this comes from one of their sketches. It’s called the “Crunchy Frog” sketch. And I actually went back and rewatched this because it had been a while for me, and the way that some of the flavors of these disgusting chocolates are described in this sketch made me realize, “Oh my God, was this the inspiration for Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans?” Because there are some disgusting flavors in those as well. And I think something else to also call out here is that John Cleese is a member of Monty Python when they were active; John Cleese played Nearly Headless Nick in the Potter films. Also, Terry Gilliam, a member of Monty Python, was J.K. Rowling’s first choice to direct Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone. I think WB thought he’d be too weird, so they said no.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: So that is your installment of make the Monty Python connection.

Eric: Nice!

Andrew: Excellent.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Full marks.

Eric: Oh, Laura, we value that so much. You know what else we love? A Rita Spy Count being upped, and in fact, Harry, when he’s about to sleep, to be asleep after he’s opened the window, hears an insect humming by the curtain.

[Buzzing sound effect plays]

Andrew: That sounded like another noise for a second…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … but it’s titled “Housefly, close buzzing.”

Micah: Sounds like Dumbledore eating his pizza.

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Eric: Hoovering or what? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, what? Vacuuming?


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And I’m going to give it to Advil, the medicine.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Advil, for when the Dark Lord has activated the connection to you, and the pain is excruciating.

Eric: I’m going to give mine to Harry, speaking of, for “I don’t want to see anything except a headache cure.” Ah, love that sass.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Mad-Eye Moody, just because. I mean, the start of the chapter with putting the trio off his scent, and then as I mentioned earlier, just him playing with his food in Dumbledore’s office and enjoying every minute of it.

Andrew: So really, you’re giving it to Fakey. You’re giving it to BCJ, okay.

Micah: Yeah, yeah. Barty Crouch, Jr.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Fred for reminding all of us, but especially Ron, why it’s important to mind. Your. Business.

[Andrew and Feryal laugh]

Feryal: And I will give mine to Ron for letting Harry Stun him. He’s been taking one for the team since the chess game, and I don’t think he gets appreciated enough for what he contributes to the friendship.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: I agree.

Micah: That’s a great point.

Laura: That’s a very good and smart character. [laughs]

Andrew: Yes!

Eric: I love that.

Micah: Went out of his way…

Andrew: I think Lexi attacked him last week, but we’re righting that ship.

Micah: Second task. He showed up.

Andrew: Yeah, he showed up. He showed under.

Laura: Yeah, he was unconscious, but he was there.

Andrew: In light of Micah giving Fakey an MVP, I feel like we should hear this sound effect again.

[Barty Crouch, Jr. appreciation sound effect plays: “You know what this means, don’t you? I’ll be welcomed back like a hero.”]

Eric: Yes! Love that.

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. If you’re going to send us a voice message – and we do prefer a voice memo over a phone call because it’ll sound better – try to keep your message around a minute long, please, so we can fit in as many as possible. And next week, we’ll read Goblet of Fire Chapter 30, “The Pensieve.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: Who is the second person that Fakey says should try for a career as an Auror? The correct answer is Hermione. Yes, it’s funny; he’s now passing that out like candy, a compliment. Okay, so correct answers were submitted by Bagels for Buckbeak; Lazuli Christatis; Ginny is Dean’s beard…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … The Unused Courtroom; Headmasters of the Galaxy, Volumes 2 and 3; Malfoy is better as a ferret; LC; Elizabeth K.; Barty Crouched so that Viktor could Krum…

[Laura and Feryal laugh]

Eric: … Olive Hornby’s magical talking bidet; Uh, Cedric came back, and now he’s sparkly; Leaving Snape standing next to the gargoyle and looking twice as ugly; Ron Weasley is so desperate for words of affirmation, he will even ask a Death Eater to give him a compliment; 99 problems, but a babbling, bumbling band of baboons isn’t one of them…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … and Sirius’s Sound Advice. So wow, that was special.

Laura: Some good ones this week.

[Feryal laughs]

Eric: Thank you all for submitting and playing Quizzitch; it’s our weekly fun thing. Here is next week’s question: After Ludo Bagman’s trial, what Quidditch match does a jury member congratulate him on? You have to be very eagle-eyed or have a very sharp memory to remember this. I’m sure most people will just look it up, but that’s okay! Submit your answers to us on the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website, maybe checking out other sections, like Wall of Fame or transcripts, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you and Feryal. Feryal, thanks so much for joining us today. It was great having you on.

Feryal: It was great being on here. Thank you for having me.

Andrew: Yeah, our pleasure. And we thankfully don’t have a Ministry of Magic running the show; we are just everyday Muggles conjuring an independent podcast, and we’re so happy to do it. But we do need support from listeners like you and Feryal, so you can help us out by tapping into the show on Apple Podcasts and subscribing to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free, early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, including a video game one we’re going to record today. And we know that Micah always says, “That’s a great offer.” It’s $4.99 a month; that’s a great deal. But between now and July 19, there’s an even better offer, and it’s over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus, if you pledge at the Slug Club level – that’s $10 a month – you will get the exclusive MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt. Please pledge by July 19 and fill out the form. That’s very important too; existing patrons, we need you to fill out the form that’s available now, and then we will send you the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt. Please, this is your only chance to get this T-shirt, so don’t miss out. It’s a really good one. We’re going to be getting samples soon. We’re going to show them off on social media, and when you see them, you’re going to get jealous, so just get it out of the way now. Become a patron now. Also…

Eric: I’m going to predict that this 19 Years Later T-shirt is going to be so cool and so hip and so enshrined in pop culture that we’re going to have to do an episode of What the Hype?! about it.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Feryal: Nice.

Andrew: I think you’re right.

Eric: It’s a full circle moment.

Andrew: You also get access to our livestreams, our planning docs, the chance to co-host the show one day, just like Feryal did today. You get access to the MuggleCast Collector’s Club, and you get a video message from one of the four of us, a personalized video thank you message from one of the four of us. So thank you for supporting us on Patreon or Apple Podcasts; we couldn’t do this without you.

Micah: And just a reminder that Eric, Chloé, and I will be at LeakyCon coming up in just a few weeks, July 5-7 at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. We now have dates and times for our main panel, so our MuggleCast meetup will be happening first on Friday, July 5 at 11:15 a.m. We have a podcaster mega panel Saturday, July 6 at 10:00 a.m., a live MuggleCast later on that day, at 5:00 p.m., and then to close out the con, a very fun LeakyMug with our friends over at Pottercast happening on Sunday at 5:00. So we are super excited, looking forward to seeing so many of you out at LeakyCon. It’s always a blast. And we’ve been spending so much time talking about the one and only Viktor Krum; he’s going to be there, recently announced, so we’ll be sure to check in with him and get his perspective on how things went down in the forest with Harry and Barty Crouch, Sr.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: You should do that.

Eric: Yeah, no, Stan is great. We love seeing him there. He’s been very kind to us in the past.

Micah: Best dressed, easily.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes that you should definitely be listening to, and more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Feryal: And I’m Feryal.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric and Feryal: Bye.