Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #437, The Voldeport (OOTP Chapter 5, ‘The Order of the Phoenix’)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World. I’m Andrew.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re joined by Pat, who hasn’t been on for a while, so welcome back, Pat.
Pat: Very happy to be back.
Andrew: Are you still playing Hogwarts Mystery?
Pat: Yes, I am.
Andrew: What level are you in Wizards Unite?
Pat: 29.
Micah: Wow.
Andrew: I stopped playing Wizards Unite; gotta be honest.
Laura: Me too. Yeah, I fell off of it.
Andrew: Are you still playing, Micah?
Micah: I actually, for the first time in a while, opened up the app this week, so I’m in the same boat. I haven’t played consistently.
Andrew: I think I peaked in Indianapolis. It’s just gotten repetitive; I’m doing the same stuff every day, so I’m like, “Why am I playing?”
Pat: For me, it’s a thing when I’m at work and I’m bored or don’t want to move on to my next task. I’ll open it, do a few things, close it, and then move on.
Andrew: Well, anyway, on today’s episode, we’re going to be discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “The Order of the Phoenix”! And we also have a news item to discuss. This one is pretty big: No more Pottermore. End of an Era. Pottermore has moved all of its content over to WizardingWorld.com and Pottermore is truly gone. If you type in Pottermore.com, it just redirects to WizardingWorld.com. The Pottermore social media handles now just say Wizarding World. It’s gone. It’s over. It’s kind of sad, actually, because Pottermore opened in beta in 2011, and then officially the next year. But y’all might remember it was a big deal when it opened, because it came right after the final movie was released, and just this name – Pottermore – “Oh my gosh, we’re getting more Potter.” It was so exciting, and they were rolling out a few chapters at a time, and J.K. Rowling was dropping new Harry Potter information on Pottermore, and that was back in the day when people actually really wanted more Harry Potter information, so it was very exciting. [laughs] How are you guys feeling about this?
Micah: Well, one thing you just made me remember was the name itself. Wasn’t that a big deal? They released letters on different websites?
Andrew: They did. They used MuggleNet, the Leaky Cauldron, and you had to put the letters together and figure out what it meant.
Pat: Yeah, I remember I got in to be a beta tester, and I remember I was in my last year of college, and I got an email while I was in class, but I couldn’t access it while I was in the classroom, so I sprinted back to my apartment to start my beta round of it.
Andrew: You left class to log into the Pottermore beta?
Pat: No, I waited till class was over.
Andrew: Oh.
Pat: Granted, I did skip my next class, but…
Andrew: [laughs] You skipped class to log into Pottermore.
Pat: Yeah, I was really excited.
Andrew: Beautiful. That’s a true fan right there.
Micah: It is kind of sad because it was such a big deal back in 2011 when we were all hungry for something more. But I’ll be honest, I did go and download the new Wizarding World app once you told me I needed to do it for the show…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: … because I needed to be re-Sorted, but I actually like the concept of Sorting now. I like the AI and the fact that you can put the hat on, and they did a good job with that. I’m not really sure what the rest of the app does; it seems like it’s still in beta, to be honest with you. There’s just not a whole lot there, and outside of that, I mean, I tried to take a few more of the tests again, but I don’t know if you’re allowed to yet. I clicked on the Patronus to see if I could redo that, and nothing happened. So I’m not really sure, outside of Sorting you, what this app does right now.
Andrew: Yeah, so they have this new augmented reality Sorting experience, and you get to wear the hat, which is pretty cool, and it lets you easily take a picture of yourself wearing the hat. And then the questions… and now, this was a big deal because we were worried that they were creating a whole new Sorting Hat quiz with new questions. These are actually the questions that J.K. Rowling wrote all those years ago for Pottermore’s original Sorting Hat, so in theory, if you answer the same way, you still should be getting the same Sorting assignment. I took this as soon as it was released, and I was really impressed with the augmented reality, and you have to tilt your phone around to answer some of the questions and stuff like that; it was pretty cool. However, I got Sorted into Hufflepuff!
Laura: What?
Andrew: I have never been Sorted into Hufflepuff before.
Laura: Oh, and that’s official. Now you’re a Hufflepuff.
Andrew: And the other thing is, the new quiz will actually let you keep your old Sorting assignment, and my old assignment was Ravenclaw, so I actually stuck with that. No offense to Hufflepuffs. But I mean, if I accepted that, then I would have been in all four Houses over my years as a Harry Potter fan, and I can’t do that.
[Pat laughs]
Micah: You’re a mess, Andrew.
Laura: Yeah, I thought you were a Slytherin.
Andrew: Well, I am a Slytherin, but Pottermore says I’m a Ravenclaw, and now new Pottermore calls me a Ravenclaw or a Hufflepuff. I just… I’m lost, y’all. I need to go into therapy.
Pat: [laughs] That is one where I’ve always been a Gryffindor on every Sorting. Everything on every Pottermore account that I’ve done has always been the same, except for the Patronuses. That’s different on every single one.
Laura: Yeah, still a Ravenclaw. I’ve been a Ravenclaw all along.
Andrew: Good.
Laura: And I was really impressed to see as I was going through the experience because it really does feel like more of an experience now, as opposed to just clicking radio buttons on the Internet. I was like, “Oh, I’m pretty sure these are the same questions; I feel like I remember these questions,” and I just went with the answers I remembered using before because they still felt right to me.
Andrew: I went with the answers I felt were right as well, but apparently, I’ve changed my feelings over the years. [laughs]
Micah: Same here.
Andrew: But we’ve spoken about that before.
Micah: I don’t remember what I answered last time, and I started actually to get a bit nervous as the quiz was going on because I didn’t think I was going to be Sorted again into Ravenclaw, even though I was. And I just wonder, too, does it look at what House you’re already Sorted into, and maybe just kind of give you that benefit? Is it already the…? This may be getting way too…
Andrew: Does it nudge you that way?
Micah: Yeah, it could be getting a bit too technical, but does the algorithm take into consideration the fact that you’re already Sorted into a certain House, and so that weighs more heavily when you start the quiz?
Andrew: Maybe, but didn’t work for me. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, that’s true. But yeah, just like Laura, Ravenclaw.
Andrew: I thought I was answering like a Gryffindor. I was pretty confident I was going to get Gryffindor, but evidently not. We asked on Patreon, “Where did the reimagined Sorting Hat quiz put you?” 59 people said, “I received the same House assignment,” 55 people said, “I got a new House assignment,” and 41 people said, “I refuse to take it.”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: You actually really should take it, though, because it is…
Micah: It’s fun.
Andrew: It’s a very well done quiz, yeah. And Pottermore – sorry, I keep calling them Pottermore – Wizarding World lets you throw away your House assignment and stick with your old one. I will also just add, calling this new website WizardingWorld.com, it just doesn’t feel as homey as Pottermore did. You know? Wizarding World, it’s more of a franchise name.
Laura: Yeah, well, I think that’s what they’re going for, for better or for worse.
Andrew: By the way, they did say in a press release that Wizarding World Gold is still happening. This is going to be the subscription to WizardingWorld.com with an annual fee. They said we will be getting a physical gift every year, and we’re also going to get access to events. That’s another thing that was launched, an official Wizarding World fan club. This is the first one they’ve ever done. There’s nothing really to it right now other than upcoming events, and apparently Wizarding World Gold is coming soon, so we’ll talk about that when it launches. But I thought we could say goodbye to our original Pottermore usernames. As we all might remember, they didn’t let us create our own usernames because they wanted to make this kid-friendly, and they didn’t want people using their real names, so they just gave you a couple of options. I was CatSeeker411 or something like that. So goodbye, CatSeeker. I’ll always remember you.
Laura: I don’t remember what my full one was, but I do remember part of it was Rook, like a rook from a chessboard. So goodbye, Rook whatever. I hardly knew ye. Really.
[Laura and Pat laugh]
Pat: Mine was PhoenixSilver90, which I actually really liked, so I actually have that as my handle for Wizards Unite.
Micah: Oh, cool.
Andrew: So PhoenixSilver lives on.
Micah: See, this is the benefit of having Gmail; I just looked it up because I had no idea what it was. ShadowSpell93.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Ooh, how mysterious.
Andrew: Eric was StrikeLumos113. Eric says he’s in tears from afar. And by the way, he was Sorted back into Gryffindor, and I think he’s feeling pretty good about that.
Micah: See, he was never a true Hufflepuff; he just plays to the crowd. Whatever works for the crowd? That’s what House he’s in.
[Pat laughs]
Andrew: Absolutely, absolutely.
Micah: Well, speaking of crowds, Comic-Con is happening this weekend in New York City, and MuggleNet has a couple of events that are going on. I actually attended one last night; Eric was the emcee of a segment called “Into the Pensieve,” and it was a look back at MuggleNet over the last 20 years. It’s hard to believe MuggleNet is 20 years old. But they had a really good crowd out there and a bunch of different fun segments that took place throughout the course of the evening, and they actually had Dan Fogler, who plays Jacob in the Fantastic Beasts series, judge an Erumpent mating contest.
Laura: I’m sorry, what?
Andrew: Yeah, what exactly happened there?
[Laura laughs]
Micah: They got seven people from the audience and they were pulled up on stage, and they played the scene from the first Fantastic Beasts movie when Newt does his little mating dance to get the Erumpent into his briefcase, and basically throughout that course of the dancing, Dan was eliminating people, and eventually the crowd picked a winner.
Andrew: That’s fun.
Micah: So it was interesting. What was cool about it at first, though, is that somehow Dan sneaked into the panel without really anybody noticing; he was sitting right in the front row, and he just kind of jumps up when Eric is talking about “We need somebody from the Fantastic Beasts series who can really judge this appropriately.”
Andrew: Oh, that’s clever.
Micah: And he ends up just kind of screaming, “I can do it!”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: So it was definitely a cool event that they put on.
Andrew: Want to also just give everybody a quick update on our tote bags: All of our tote bags, including the 200 internationals, have gone out. We were really proud of this project, and everybody seems to be really happy with the bags, those who are receiving them, so thank you to everybody who has supported us this year at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Your support goes towards running the show and we really appreciate it, and we try to give back to you as well, so we send out a physical gift every year. This year, we actually sent out two things, the tote bag and the signed album art, since we had new album art to celebrate.
Micah: And we have Laura.
Andrew: And Laura!
Micah: Laura signed it, that’s what I mean. It makes it more valuable.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Ohh.
Laura: No, actually, you put me in the mail and you’re just sending me around the country.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, how’s that trip?
Laura: It’s going pretty well. [laughs]
Andrew: You’re like a politician, always on the move.
Laura: That’s right.
Micah: The tote bags are really cool. I got one finally yesterday; Eric showed up here in New York, and I was really impressed with how nice they are.
Andrew: Time now for a word from this week’s sponsor.
[Ad break]
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: So it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “Order of the Phoenix”! We’ll kick it off with our seven-word summary, and Pat, you will start.
Pat: Okay, well, let’s just go with Harry…
Andrew: … asks…
Micah: … Sirius…
Laura: … about…
Pat: … Voldemort…
Andrew: Voldemort? Just Voldemort?
Pat: Voldemort’s.
Andrew: Thank you.
[Andrew and Pat laugh]
Micah: Cheater.
Andrew: … return…
Micah: … loudly.
[Andrew and Pat laugh]
Andrew: Okay, sure. I thought you would end it on “today.”
Micah: Yeah, I thought about it.
Andrew: “Voldemort’s return today.” I wanted to change it to “Voldemort’s evil…” and then you could have said “plan” or something like that.
Pat: “Return plan” could have worked too.
Andrew: Voldemort’s return plan, yeah.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: So last we left Harry, he was dealing with Sirius’s mother screaming at the top of her lungs, but the chapter opens up and Harry learns from Sirius that, in fact, they are in his old home, and that as the last living Black, he’s the rightful owner of Number 12 Grimmauld Place, and he’s given his home as headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix. And I thought we could just start out by talking: Is this a miscalculation on the part of Dumbledore to accept Sirius’s offer for headquarters of the Order? We’ve talked in the past about how there’s threats externally, but being in a place like this, I think there are a lot of threats that are within Grimmauld Place that aren’t considered by Dumbledore; they obviously play out later on in the course of the book. But just from what we’ve seen of Grimmauld Place so far, does this seem like the best place for the Order?
Pat: I think for location-wise, I think it’s good, because since it is at least near the inner city of London – at least in my mind, it is – that since the Ministry of Magic is also in London, just having your resistance headquarters pretty close to the people you’re resisting, since the Ministry is against Dumbledore right now, it makes sense to be close, just so that some of your members can get back from work really easy, stuff like that.
Laura: I also wonder what other options they might have had, because if you think about it, it’s like, okay, you have all of these people’s personal homes, which isn’t doable because you don’t want their neighbors to see this gaggle of wizards coming and going all the time, a lot of whom are not even supposed to know each other; we see that Arthur and Kingsley tend to ignore each other at work to avoid raising suspicion. And also, the only other option, apart from that, would be Hogwarts, in my mind. And again, that’s another risk, because you would see all these people coming and going, and all of a sudden you would have people like Draco Malfoy – who we’ll see is very observant about who is following Harry around – noticing people like the Weasleys or Kingsley or Tonks or Lupin coming and going when they really have no discernible reason to be at Hogwarts, so I wonder if this was a case of this just being the best option.
Andrew: Well, and with Hogwarts, because you’re not supposed to be able to Apparate into and out of the school, it wouldn’t have been very easy to get to for all these people. It does seem very far away – it is very far away – from London. I liked Pat’s point about being in close proximity to the Ministry. And I’m also wondering if J.K. Rowling wanted to put it here just so Harry could learn more about Sirius’s life before he died. We also get introduced to the tapestry and of course his mother and some precious family heirlooms, and without the introduction of the house, without Harry spending time in the house, we would lose a lot of that.
Pat: I think, too, because we have the advantage of seeing what happened because Book 6 is obviously already out – the advantage of the Muggles being surrounding them, too, so really, nobody can retaliate against the Order if they did find anything out – but we see in Book 6, when the headquarters have moved to the Burrow, just the fact that they don’t have all of the precautions that they had on Grimmauld Place, so that leads the Minister to show up at headquarters and the headquarters to eventually be attacked in Book 7, so I think there is more of an advantage right now to have it in the middle of London, surrounded by Muggles and everything.
Andrew: Hiding in plain sight, so to speak.
Micah: I think those are all really, really good points. And speaking of hiding in plain sight, Harry notices what looks like floor plans on the kitchen table. This whole chapter really takes place around dinner and before and after, and so Harry is finally getting a meal after all he’s been through the course of these last couple of hours, and he notices just prior to… the meeting’s wrapped up, but there’s what looks to be floor plans on the table. And I was just wondering, do we recall what we thought they might be for? It’s a little sloppy on the part of the Order to just leave them hanging out there. It’s another instance where Harry is not really getting any information. It’s a tease more than anything else, right?
Andrew: It’s such a blink and you’ll miss it line that I don’t think I put any thought into it when I was reading. I mean, they’re having meetings; that’s what you do. You have some plans out. You have some paperwork out. It’s no big deal.
Pat: I did want to point out that Bill vanishes all of these papers using Evanesco, and isn’t that the same spell that they used in Hogwarts before plumbing was a thing to remove their poop?
Andrew: Ahh.
Laura: I think you’re right.
Andrew: Well, I guess it’s appropriate you bring that up today, since we also said goodbye to Pottermore.
[Laura and Pat laugh]
Pat: So did these plans go to the same place that all the poop goes? Or do you have control when you vanish?
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: It’s a great question.
Andrew: That’s a good question, actually. Did Pottermore answer that? Pottermore, come back, we need to know the answer.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: I’m going to say when you cast that spell, you have to think inside your head where they need to go to.
Pat: That’s legit.
Andrew: So when you’re getting rid of your human waste, you’re thinking in your head, “I want to send this very far away.” When you’re Bill hiding the floor plans, you just say, “I want to hide this in my room or in my pocket.”
Micah: We also get a more formal introduction to Mundungus, and we’ll talk about him in a little bit and just his value to the Order. But again, towards the beginning of this chapter, Harry and Sirius strike up a conversation, and they’re really comparing summers with each other, and we learn that Sirius has been cooped up at Grimmauld Place on Dumbledore’s orders, much like Harry has been at Privet Drive on Dumbledore’s orders. And to me, this kind of felt like a conversation that Sirius and James might have, and they’re both blaming Dumbledore for their current situation. The quote from the book is that “There was something about the slightly flattened tone of voice in which Sirius uttered Dumbledore’s name that told Harry that Sirius was not very happy with the headmaster either. Harry felt a sudden upsurge of affection for his godfather.”
Laura: From an adult vantage point, I found myself being really annoyed with Sirius here, because he’s literally trying to one-up Harry on how miserable both their summers were. It was like they were in the middle of the misery Olympics. Like, “Who’s had a worse summer?”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: And I was like, you are an adult. You are a grown-ass person, comparing your misery with the misery of a 15-year-old who just so happens to be the Chosen One and whose parents were murdered by Voldemort. Like, calm down. [laughs]
Andrew: Well, is that reflective of Sirius’s character in general? Is he just generally an immature person? I would say so.
Laura: Yeah. I also thought – and really, I think of both Harry and Sirius when I think of this – but I think that they’re both prime examples of what happens if you let something that’s called the ladder of inference go unchecked. Is this a theory that y’all are familiar with?
Andrew: No.
Laura: So it’s actually really interesting. So the ladder of inference describes the thinking process that we go through, usually without realizing it, to get from a fact to a decision or action. And the stages of the ladder can be seen as rungs, right? And we actually have a link to this that we can maybe put in the show notes if people find it interesting. But oftentimes what happens is we have our small pool of data and facts that represents reality, but we don’t have all the context or all the information, so we end up climbing our ladder, if you will, and making decisions and taking action based on a really limited pool of data, and that can oftentimes get us into trouble, as we see often happens to Harry and ultimately, what happens to Sirius in this book. So it’s just a mental health point of view thing, especially since we’ve previously gotten feedback from the listeners about how one of the major themes that’s playing here is Harry’s mental health and how it’s impacted by being shut off from the wizarding world by being stuck with the Dursleys, who are emotionally and sometimes physically abusive towards him.
Micah: Yeah, it’s a really interesting point. And I don’t think Sirius really has had the opportunity to grow up. He hasn’t had the opportunity to mature because he was locked up in Azkaban for 13 years, and now he’s just had the opportunity to get out, but he’s very much been a prisoner, despite the fact that he’s not in jail, if we think about everything that he’s been through since Prisoner of Azkaban.
Pat: Yeah, he spent a year just living with Buckbeak. You can’t talk to Buck… well, I mean, you can, but he’s not going to talk back.
[Andrew squawks]
Micah: And he’s thrown very much into a torturous situation. He’s in his old home, which we can tell is not a fun place for him to be. He talked even with Harry in Prisoner of Azkaban about how – or maybe it’s later on in this book; I’m confusing it – but how he would always go to the Potters, and that was kind of his refuge. And not only that, he’s forced to come face to face with the person he probably detests the most outside of his mother, and that’s Snape, and Snape coming in and out of his home and basically throwing it in his face every time they’re sitting down and having a conversation that Sirius really is unable to do much outside of provide this safe house for them.
Andrew: I can see why Sirius is very frustrated, because he wants to be in Snape’s position; he wants to be going out, but Dumbledore is insisting that he doesn’t do that. I’m also… this conversation is making me think that I don’t think I would like Sirius. Harry likes him a lot because he’s the closest family, but Sirius just seems like an annoying uncle. And we’ll talk in a few minutes about how Sirius pushes Harry into asking about Voldemort, and it seems really uncalled for. And then when you consider what we’ve just been talking about for the past couple of minutes, it’s like, this guy does not seem like a person I would be wanting to spend time with.
Micah: So switching the discussion a little bit, there’s a comedic moment with Fred and George, which is always the case. And they’re trying to help Molly prepare dinner, and she starts to get really frustrated with them, and we saw it earlier on as well, with them Apparating, about them utilizing their magic. And it’s really, though, a coming of age for Fred and George, right? Much like we would have a coming of age when we’re old enough to drink or old enough to vote, there’s something that’s really unique and powerful about those moments. So I just want to talk a little bit about that, and I wonder what Molly herself was like back in the day when she first got this opportunity. I think she’s just being a little bit hard on Fred and George.
Andrew: Yeah, probably because of their situation right now she’s a little more on edge, but she also does bring up that Bill and Charlie – and maybe she mentions Percy too – they weren’t using magic left and right like Fred and George are. But you do also have to understand where they’re coming from. A, like you said, they’re always goofing off. But B, being able to legally use magic for the first time, that’d be like having a new toy. It’s like getting a new car, getting a new electronic; you just want to use it more. You want to celebrate using it because it’s fresh and new and exciting, and of course, when you give something like this to Fred and George, damn right they’re going to run with it, so I don’t blame them at all. I think Molly’s response is more because they are in Sirius’s home, and everybody’s on edge right now with everything that’s going on. She’s just stressed out.
Laura: Well, she’s also kind of always been frustrated with the twins, and I think she has a bad habit of comparing them to her other children. We kind of see this in later chapters where Ron gets the prefect badge, and Molly is like, “Oh, that’s everyone in the family,” and Fred and George are like, “What? We didn’t do that.” And she often gets frustrated with them even in the earlier books for their antics, so I think she just has a hard time connecting with them on that front. And it honestly seems like she sees more of herself in her other children, which is problematic. I mean, I think that we’ve all seen examples of, unfortunately, parents who express a clear preference amongst their children, and it sucks and it’s not right, but it is a reality that happens sometimes. And even though Molly Weasley is an overwhelmingly good character, she still has flaws, and I think this is one of them.
Pat: Yeah, I think, too – and I could just be giving Molly more credit in this moment – but she, I think, realizes where the future is going, and doesn’t want the twins to bring more attention to themselves, which could ultimately lead to their early deaths if they keep screwing around.
Laura: Yep, definitely.
Andrew: This is an awful question to ask, but do you think she wishes she didn’t have Fred and George? [laughs]
Laura: No, I’m sure it’s not that.
Pat: No, I don’t think so.
Laura: I’m sure that’s not it.
Andrew: Are they her least favorite children?
Laura: I don’t know if I’d put it that way. Like I said before, I think she has a clear preference.
Pat: Right.
Laura: But what’s interesting about that…
Andrew: So she prefers them least. [laughs]
Laura: I think what’s interesting about that, though, is you were right that she brought up Percy in the middle of this. She was like, “Well, Bill and Charlie never did this, and Percy -” and she just stopped dead and couldn’t proceed talking because I think that probably the child that stood out as being her most responsible, most nose down…
Andrew: By the book.
Laura: … respecting of authority, by the book, ended up forsaking the family, so that probably stings.
Pat: Right, and you remember in Book 4, too, how just distraught she is and they’re the first ones that she goes to once they get back from the Quidditch World Cup after their last interaction before they left, because she felt so guilty for what she said to them.
Laura: Ooh, yeah.
Pat: So I do think she really does love them incredibly; they just frustrate her.
Micah: I would say Ron is probably in the category… well, if we go to the Horcrux scene; the “least loved” of his siblings, and his mom had wanted a daughter…
Laura: Yeah, at the very least, that’s Ron’s perception of how his mother views him.
Pat: Right.
Laura: But oftentimes, our worst perceptions of ourselves generally aren’t reflective of the actual reality.
Micah: Well, maybe she’s also upset at Fred and George for death omen number two…
Laura: Yep.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … and this happens as they’re trying to help Molly out preparing dinner, and the quote from the book is “the bread knife slipped off the board and landed, point down and quivering ominously, exactly where Sirius’s right hand had been seconds before.”
Andrew: Dun, dun, dun! The Grim Reaper is coming for you, Sirius.
Pat: Something that I wanted to point out as we’re getting into dinner is the difference that the movie liked to bring out rather than following the books, when Tonks is putting on her little nose show, changing her appearance for Ginny and Hermione. In the books, it describes the noses as still being human noses, but either being pig-like or beak-like, where it’s hooked like Snape’s, which it does mention. But then in the movie, they did physically give her a duck bill and give her a pig nose and everything where I think that leads to them just making it more comedic for the viewers who aren’t necessarily book fans, because a Metamorphmagus or however you pronounce it can only do human form. It can’t do anything with animal forms.
Laura: Yeah, I can definitely see this being a place where they thought in order to translate this moment to the screen, the transition has to be more stark, whereas if you did her doing different kinds of human noses, it wouldn’t be as eye-catching of a visual. So I can see why they did it, but it’s not canon.
[Andrew laughs]
Pat: Right, which also leads to one of my biggest pet peeves of the Hogwarts Mystery game is they have Tonks turn into Professor Binns and float around where… she also can’t turn into a ghost, so that’s not a thing. [laughs] Why are they putting that in a game?
Andrew: Come on, Hogwarts Mystery.
Laura: That’s weird.
Andrew: I think they also, in the case of the movie, they just needed a lighter moment, and that’s why they made it a more aggressive transformation.
Micah: Speaking of Tonks, though, I read this somewhere when I was working on the chapter discussion: Do you think the hand is sort of overplayed with Tonks here? Because she offers to help Molly out with dinner, and yet she has a couple more incidents on her way to doing that, and somebody made the point if she offered to help out with dinner, one would think that she’s more than capable of doing that, and so it just seems that her ability to knock things over or be clumsy is just overdone in terms of just her character, and so I found that interesting.
Laura: Well, I also find it interesting that she’s so quick to use magic to help Harry pack, but then when they arrive at Grimmauld Place, it describes her and Remus as jointly carrying his trunk down the hallway. And now she wants to help make dinner manually, and I’m like, “Where’s the magic? You can actually do it here.” [laughs]
Pat: Maybe she just felt more comfortable with an underaged wizard being clumsy, but now that she is with these people that she looks up to, she doesn’t want to screw up, but it just still ends up happening.
Andrew: Maybe she wanted to just get in a little physical activity.
Pat: Got to get those squats in.
Micah: At the other end of the dinner table from Tonks and her faces is a discussion about goblins, and the reason why I wanted to bring this up is there’s starting to be talk of who’s on what side. And knowing that Voldemort is now back, there’s going to be recruitment done on his part, and so Bill and Remus and I think a few others are talking about the goblins, and right now it’s unclear whose side they’re on, but it is clear that the Order is making a pitch for them, and that’s something that’s super important to them is their freedom.
Laura: Yeah, I thought this was actually a really poignant real world example that we can draw on, the idea that a group that has been persecuted and denied their rights for so long will tend to be sympathetic, perhaps, to the offer of a group that is at least saying they’re going to provide some form of salvation or equality for them. And Bill really brings up the point, we’ve been denying them these rights for centuries, so some of them are feeling a bit anti-wizard at the moment, and that makes them really susceptible to whatever positive offers that Voldemort might make to them, and I think that you can look at the world that we live in as a great example of that. I mean, if you have a particularly charismatic leader who has nefarious intentions, but they’re making some kind of offer that is really good for a particular faction of the population, they’re more likely to think about what they need for themselves than about the overall good of whoever’s in charge of things. So I thought this was really interesting; it felt very apropos to where we are on a global scale at the moment.
Andrew: It’s also just a bummer that the goblins feel like their best bet might be Voldemort. [laughs] Like, “No, we can’t depend on the good guys anymore, so we have to go to Team Voldemort.” But in preparation for today’s discussion, I was also just reading about goblins in the Harry Potter series, and I was reminded that there were rumors that Fudge actually wanted to take wizarding currency and Gringotts away from the goblins, and that could not have helped at all, either.
Laura: Right.
Andrew: I guess this period was a big moment for wizards to reflect on how they’ve been treating different species over the years, because now they really need these guys, goblins and other types of creatures, and they might not be there for them.
Laura: Well, and that’s the thing; who’s a good guy and a bad guy is totally dependent on your social vantage point. So to the goblins, who’ve been denied their rights and their freedoms for centuries by wizards, they probably aren’t looking at this as “Oh, these are the good guys; these are the bad guys.” To them, everybody’s a bad guy because they’ve been denying them freedom for so long, and they really try to restrict their abilities to be themselves in this world where they are naturally occurring and they clearly have a place, so to them, it’s probably less about good versus evil, and more about “What can we do to secure our freedoms?”
Pat: Right. And the chapter also kind of goes into being like, “The goblins could just flip a coin and go either way,” because I think it was Bill that mentioned that they haven’t forgotten that Voldemort also killed an entire family of goblins at one point during his last attempt to gain power.
Andrew: And I think if the goblins did end up siding with Voldemort in the second wizarding war, Voldemort would have killed them later. He would have only brought them in because he needed them, and acted like he cared about them, and then after the war, if he won, they would have been treated like crap.
Laura: Yep, it really is a lose-lose for them because they have these two options: One option is to go with the guy who might be promising them big ideas of freedom and salvation and all these other things but who will ultimately probably slaughter them at one point, or they can choose the more “moderate” option of people who aren’t going to kill them, but are also going to force them to continue to live as second class citizens.
Pat: Either way, it’s still wizards.
Laura: Yep.
Micah: Well, we mentioned Mundungus earlier on in the chapter. We get the sense that Molly really doesn’t approve of him, and honestly, I wanted to ask the question: Do we?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: It’s stated that he knows all of the crooks because he is one. Dumbledore saved his ass one time, so he owes him. And I’m curious, does Dumbledore just pick Order members like he does Hogwarts professors?
Andrew: [laughs] This is a really embarrassing chapter for Mundungus, because it’s noted that he was sleeping through the most recent meeting. This guy is useless. And then a couple of pages later, he’s openly considering stealing some of Sirius’s possessions. You know, every team has a couple of people who suck, but you keep them around because they know how to code things, or they write really good show notes for MuggleCast…
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: … or even if they generally suck, sometimes there’s that one thing that you need them for so you can’t get rid of them.
Micah: But it’s almost like…
Andrew: Micah writes the MuggleCast show notes, in case anyone was wondering.
Micah: I think people may have figured that out.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But with Mundungus, it’s almost like Dumbledore is putting a kid in a candy shop with Grimmauld Place, to your point, and that’s, to me, a miscalculation on… I mean, maybe that’s part of what Dumbledore is thinking. “Hey, if I put Mundungus in this place where he’s likely to be able to still do the things that he does, then I can still keep an eye on him, and maybe he gets us some decent information,” but he just seems like too much of a liability, in my opinion. And we’ll talk more about the Order in a little bit, because it’s mentioned later on that they’re really ineffective at their jobs right now. They really can’t spread the word that Voldemort has returned, and they can’t do too much, and I just think having somebody like this is more of a liability than it is a benefit at this point.
Pat: Yeah, I think if there were more people in the Order right now, Mundungus would have less responsibility. If there were ten more people in it, he would have never been assigned to trail Harry, but they’re kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel until they get more members, which I think is why he has more responsibility at this moment in time.
Micah: So now it’s time for the battle for Harry. In one corner we have Sirius Black; the other corner, we have Molly Weasley. And this all kind of starts when Sirius encourages Harry to ask about Voldemort, and I just think Sirius at this point wants to stir shit up. He wants to get things going at this… and part of it, I think, is his immaturity. Part of it is, I think, what we were talking about earlier with him just being reckless at this stage, and I almost think he’s looking for Harry to act out on his behalf, given his state of mind and being locked up in Grimmauld Place all summer. He just wants to throw everything out there and he doesn’t really care, and I wanted to get your thoughts on that.
Andrew: Yeah, I think he’s really bored inside his home and he’s looking for a fight. He wants to prod other people to bring them down to his level. I’ve just found this very uncalled for and very out of left field, and it’s another reason I don’t like Sirius.
Laura: I also think that he’s living vicariously through Harry. We can see earlier on in the chapter that the two of them are really connecting on this idea of feeling isolated, so this is Sirius’s way of being like, “Look, see, I’m not the only one, and Harry has more reason than any of the rest of us to want to know what’s going on, so he has a right to know.” So I think there is some good intention here in that he’s Harry’s godfather, and he knows that Harry is feeling so cut off from this world, and he’s trying to make sure that Harry feels connected to it, but at the same time, I think he’s also trying to make a point about his own situation. And as we can see, this all just kind of blows up.
Micah: Right, and I also think it’s a shot at Dumbledore, just given his frustration level with him right now. And Dumbledore makes it clear that Harry doesn’t need to know more than he needs to know, and given that Dumbledore isn’t there, it’s really up to these adults to figure out how much Harry really needs to know in this situation. And Molly thinks that Sirius is treating Harry too much like James, and he responds, “I’m perfectly clear who he is, Molly,” and I thought that’s ironic given the scene at the very end of the book where he calls him James.
Laura: God, that hurt my heart.
Andrew: Molly was right.
Micah: Yeah, and there is a lot of back and forth that takes place between Molly and Sirius, and Molly says that Harry is as good as one of her own children. Harry appreciates the concern, but is really tired of her coddling. And Andrew, I think you raised a good point here about Harry not really having any parental figures, so are these two kind of the stand-ins at this point?
Andrew: Well, yeah, I wanted to ask everybody who are Harry’s parents right now? Sirius definitely. Lupin? Would we call Molly a parent?
Laura: Do we really think Sirius is acting in a parental role? Sirius, I think he’s a good… I think it’s good that he’s in Harry’s life, so that Harry has some kind of connection to the foundation of who he is and who his parents were, but I don’t think Sirius acts like a parent. Sirius acts like a sibling more than anything else.
Micah: I was going to say the rogue uncle.
Laura: Yeah, I really think that Molly, for better or for worse, sometimes she’s overprotective, and that… historically – we’ll talk about this in Connecting the Threads – we’ve seen that that doesn’t always work out the best, but she really does have the best intentions at heart for Harry. And if you go all the way back to Book 2 when Harry first stays at the Burrow, she very much includes him as one of her own. He always gets the hand-knitted sweater at Christmas. She’s always thinking of him amongst her own children. There’s always a spot at the table for him with the Weasleys, and that’s largely because of Molly, so I think that she definitely does serve as a stand-in parental figure for him. And I think… who said Lupin a moment ago?
Andrew: I did.
Laura: I think Lupin is probably closer to a father figure, a true father figure.
Andrew: Yeah. So who does Harry consider his parents, though? Because I think Sirius is number one, and I don’t think he really sees Molly as a parent. I hate to say that, because Molly probably deserves it, but I think the person who would come in second after Sirius is Lupin. They always have these really good conversations, these really nice heart to hearts, and Harry respects Molly, but I think he respects Lupin and Sirius most. He would follow them off a bridge. I don’t think he would do the same for Molly.
Laura: Right, and I think a lot of that is a lot of confirmation bias on Harry’s part, right? These two people were the Marauders, they made the Marauder’s Map, they were friends with his parents, they knew his parents… so I think there’s a deal of personal bias that goes into that. So I would agree with you, Andrew, I think that for – well, I think it’s usually for worse – Harry does view Sirius as more of a parental figure than he probably is. Sirius, in this case, kind of reminds me of the parent that tries to be too cool. I feel like we all had at least one friend who had that parent who was the cool mom and always into what the kids were into, and never really disciplined anybody, never set any structure or any boundaries or anything, so their kids kind of ran wild as a result. Sirius reminds me a lot of that. I don’t think it’s entirely his fault, because as we’ve mentioned earlier, he graduated Hogwarts, I think maybe a couple years went by because Lily and James had Harry pretty young, and then they died, and then he was sent off to Azkaban for 12 years. So he lost out on a lot of the time in which he would have matured, and I would argue that had Lily and James not been murdered, Sirius probably would have been a better stand-in father figure to Harry than he is now.
Pat: Yeah. I think, too, that at this point in the book, I don’t think Harry sees Molly as a parent, but within the next chapter or two, when he walks in on her with the Boggart, I think that’s when he does realize, “Okay, this is a mother to me. Molly is a mother. She does care about me that much.” I think he has that visual confirmation at that point, and then I think his viewpoint changes a little just within a chapter or two.
Micah: That’s a great point. Though, Molly is definitely wrong, I would say, at times during this debate that’s going on, and she says something to Sirius that is pretty harsh, and she talks about how it’s “been rather difficult for you to look after Harry while you’ve been locked up in Azkaban, hasn’t it?” And she knows Sirius was framed, and this is really, I thought, really a surprising moment for Molly, right? I don’t know that we’ve seen her act out in this way, and this is a struggle in my mind of who cares about Harry the most, right? Instead of just saying “We both care about Harry,” which Lupin brings it all full circle later on, but these two are going at each other, really, for Harry’s affection, trying to prove who cares about him the most.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Agreed. This was a dig for sure from Molly, and it was catty and a bit immature on her part, because like you mentioned, she knows that Sirius wasn’t actually guilty, and I think it demonstrates a lack of empathy in this moment, which is surprising for Molly.
Andrew: We also have to remember this was a comment she made in the heat of the moment, and I think maybe she would take it back if there was a discussion afterwards. She was just desperate to be defensive, and she snapped, and this came out. Sometimes we say things we don’t mean when we’re angry.
Micah: Yeah, and I just think for her, as you said, it’s heat of the moment, and she really doesn’t want Harry to listen to anything that he’s about to hear, and if she can do everything in her power to make that happen, she’s going to do it, and if that means saying what she says, then she has no problem saying it here.
Andrew: Everything’s about to be laid bare.
Micah: Right.
Andrew: So she’s taking one last stab before she loses all control.
Micah: Exactly.
Andrew: I feel bad for her.
Micah: Now, we talked a little bit about Harry allying with Sirius in this moment, and I think a lot of it has to do with Harry and Sirius really growing up the same way, without parental figures, and they sort of have… there’s just no regard for any sort of rules taking place here, and it’s almost… this goes to Sirius and his parenting ability, the fact that they’re almost like buddies here. It is almost like Sirius and James versus Molly, and it’s just Sirius should be looking out for Harry a little bit more than he is, though I do think there is something to be said for giving him information, because he’s had nothing provided to him since he left Hogwarts last summer.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly. And we’ve all been on Team Give Harry Information, so I don’t think any of us have any right to fault Sirius here. And of course, they’re being buddy-buddy because Harry is getting what he wants, finally.
Micah: So Lupin and Arthur both support Sirius letting Harry in on some of what’s been going on, and this sets off just a whole chain reaction of who should be in the room, who should not be in the room, and Harry actually considers for a very brief moment not letting Ron and Hermione in on what he’s about to find out, and did you find yourself sympathizing with Harry at all?
Andrew: I love getting back at people, so yeah.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: I could totally understand why Harry considered that for a moment, but then there’s this line, “The nasty impulse vanished as soon as they looked at each other.” That’s friendship. Harry couldn’t say no to his friends. It doesn’t matter that he was left in the dark; he’s looking into their eyes now, and he wants them to be a part of this. And like he brings up, he would tell Ron and Hermione anyway even if they weren’t in the room, so Molly could not win here.
Laura: I thought it was interesting because it seems like Harry did a better job at exercising self-control in this moment than Molly did, right? He had this really nasty impulse, but he did exercise self-control before he let the words slip out of his mouth, which makes me wonder who gets maturity points in this conversation.
Micah: Right.
Andrew: Molly also had more reason, I think, to feel enraged, though, because she felt very strongly about none of these children having access to this information, so I don’t think Harry’s back was up against the wall as much as Molly’s was.
Micah: Well, poor Ginny, because she’s the lone person that gets… I mean, at that point, why not just let her stay in the room?
Andrew: She would probably find out too! Harry would tell her, or Ron would tell her. If she begged one of her siblings enough, they would probably tell her.
Micah: So we end up getting the Voldemort report, and…
Andrew: The Voldeport, it’s called.
Micah: The Voldeport.
[Micah and Pat laugh]
Pat: We still get mentions that a lot of members still shudder at the sound of his name, and you’d think that a group of people that want to take him down would stop being afraid of his name by now.
Micah: Yeah, it’s a great point. I thought the same thing when I was reading: Why are these people – these adults, even – still shuddering at the mention of his name?
Andrew: [laughs] It’s almost a running joke at this point for J.K. Rowling. That’s just what happens in the wizarding world: You hear “Voldemort,” and you go, [gasps]
Pat: Even Ron still does up through Book 7. And granted, he does figure out that there’s the trace on the name, but even up until then, he’s like, “Will you just please stop saying it? We can all agree that I hate it. Please just don’t say it.”
Andrew: It’s like a curse word in the real world. There’s no… has there ever been a name that if we said out loud, somebody would shudder over? No.
Laura: Maybe not within our lifetimes, but I don’t know. If you look back on some really extreme dictators or autocrats, you might see people who feel that way.
Pat: Yeah, I’m sure back in World War II, during the Holocaust, that most people would not want to say Hitler’s name.
Micah: No, there’s legitimate fear here with his name, so I do think, yeah, going back to World War II, making some comparisons to Hitler. We learn that there have been no suspicious deaths reported thus far, and that Harry really messed up Voldemort’s plans when he escaped the graveyard at the end of Goblet of Fire, Dumbledore recalled the Order hours after his return, and that Fudge is out to delegitimize Dumbledore at every turn. I’m not really sure how much this tells us; these are things we probably could have figured out on our own.
Andrew: Well, I just loved getting a lay of the land and learning what was going on with Voldemort, how Fudge is keeping his head in the sand in regards to Voldemort coming back, and why the Ministry doesn’t want to acknowledge that Voldemort could be back. And then also learning about how Fudge believes Dumbledore is trying to overthrow him and the politics behind all of that; I thought it was just a really cool lay of the land.
Laura: There was also some nice foreshadowing here, where Harry was asking, “Well, what’s Voldemort up to?” And Lupin confirms that, “Well, we don’t really know, but Dumbledore’s got a shrewd idea, and Dumbledore’s shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate.”
Andrew: [laughs] And that’s why we trust him.
Laura: Yep. Horcruxes.
Andrew: That’s why we listen to him. When he says, “Harry, you can’t know much,” just go with it.
Micah: Yeah, and specifically, we see Dumbledore being voted out of the Chairmanship of the International Confederation of Wizards, he’s demoted from the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot, and he may or may not have his Order of Merlin first class taken away.
Andrew: Do you think Harry starts feeling bad for Dumbledore seeing all these titles and positions stripped? Because then Harry might at least be thinking, “Well, Dumbledore is sacrificing a lot here, for me in part, so maybe I should start to be less angry at him for what he’s doing, because he’s making a bunch of sacrifices.”
Pat: Yeah, I think maybe he realizes, “Hey, Dumbledore is not really a title queen; he just wants to make the world a better place.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: So we touched on this earlier, that the Order is not really well positioned to spread the word of Voldemort’s return, and this comes up during the conversation. Sirius is a wanted criminal; Lupin is a werewolf; Arthur and Tonks could lose their jobs at the Ministry, so it’s really challenging for them to be able to spread the word about Voldemort’s return, recruit people… it’s not as easy as one would think, and certainly not with the Ministry being an enemy as opposed to an ally.
Andrew: Yeah, I was curious: Did anyone have any ideas for how they could have tried to spread the message, or do you think it’s best just for them to wait it out? You couldn’t really have the trio do it, because who would believe the kids? And then, of course, the Ministry and the Prophet would start putting together this smear campaign like they have with Harry, but it would probably reach a whole other level if they were going out on the streets and being like, “Voldemort is back; everybody panic.” Is there anybody who could have spread the word successfully?
Laura: I think the Order is in the position where they have to wait to strike until the iron is hot, until something that is easily understandable to the public happens, because the unfortunate part of Voldemort’s return is that Harry was the only one who lived to see it, right? And I mean, the Death Eaters, of course, but they’re not going to admit to that. But Cedric Diggory died, so he can’t confirm it, and all anybody knows is that Harry returned from the maze and the Triwizard Tournament with a dead Cedric Diggory, so that’s all anybody is seeing from the outside. There needs to be some kind of event very similar to what happens at the end of this book that has multiple witnesses that will convince the public and sway public opinion, and really, until that happens, I don’t think the Order can be effectively spreading the word.
Andrew: Isn’t it pretty sick that the public wouldn’t believe Harry? He’s a kid. Why would he want to make that up? Y’all suck.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Pat: But that’s the problem of what all happened in Book 4 with Rita. She did give the public a reason not to believe Harry in a lot of instances, and then I think a lot of the public would think that Harry is just crying wolf at this point for more attention, because she did a pretty good job of making people believe that all he wants is attention.
Andrew: Yeah, but when you have a dead fellow student in your arms, if somebody sees that, they should start to believe you. [laughs] Otherwise, put Harry on trial for murdering Cedric.
Pat: True.
Micah: Why not just give Harry some Veritaserum and have him spill his guts about what happened in the graveyard?
Andrew: He should have volunteered to do that, like people volunteer to take lie detector tests.
Micah: All right, so the chapter wraps up with the mention of a weapon, something that Voldemort didn’t have at his disposal last time, and it’s very vague and Molly cuts off the conversation there. But was this misleading to us as readers? Is the prophecy truly a weapon?
Andrew: How should they have described it in this moment, though? They’re trying to avoid telling Harry something, so why not just call it a weapon?
Pat: Right, and I do think that if you do think about it, it could be considered a weapon with that phrase of “Knowledge is power.” The last time, back when Harry was a baby, Voldemort didn’t have the full prophecy known to him, so the fact that he wants to know everything that was said is more knowledge for him to be able to defeat Harry next time.
Laura: True.
Pat: So that would change up everything. So I do think, in a way, thinking about it in that kind of context, then it is a weapon.
Laura: Yeah, I agree with that. I also wonder how clued in they are on all of Dumbledore’s interpretations, because Harry is a bit of a weapon, right? Nobody really knows this at this point, but Harry is a weapon, so it could also be in reference to that? Maybe they just don’t know that that’s what it means?
Micah: Interesting.
Pat: And I wonder if it’s something, too – going off of what Laura said – do you think maybe some of the Order thinks that he’s trying to come up with a spell that is stronger than the Killing Curse, maybe? Or where it could be multiple at once, or something like that?
Laura: Yeah, it could just be that all they know is that Voldemort is after something in the Department of Mysteries. They may not know exactly what at this point.
Pat: Right.
Andrew: The prophecy has to be one of the guesses, though.
Pat: Do you think it’s widely known that people… the wizarding community knows that there is a Hall of Prophecies? Or do only the people that have a prophecy in there for them know about it? Since it is the Department of Mysteries.
Andrew: Well, if they’re sworn to secrecy, I guess it wouldn’t get out, but you would think that type of information would spread, because there’s a lot of prophecies in there.
Pat: Right. Yeah, there’s a lot.
Andrew: Do you guys think they drew the right line? So Molly stops them right before… well, right after we hear it’s a weapon. Do you think this conversation with Harry was stopped at the right place?
Pat: For us as readers? Yes.
Laura: Harry has shown a tendency to be really rash and I think Molly knows that, and so from the perspective of keeping Harry from running out into the night to try and go after Voldemort, yes.
Pat: Does it ever bug you guys how Harry is like, “Oh, more powerful than the Avada Kedavra curse?” Why do they have to say some of the spells, the actual incantation, and not just the name of the spell? Because I mean, granted, Harry is not holding his wand, but if he was powerful enough, he could have just killed an Order member at that moment. Why not just say “the Killing Curse”?
Laura: Yeah, it’s like pointing a gun around a room without the safety on.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Pat: Right, and they do that for everything. Being like, “Oh, yeah, Harry just loves using Expelliarmus.” Why not say he loves using the Disarm Charm or something like that? I don’t know. I was thinking about that when I was reading this when he asks that.
Andrew: They should have all squealed when he said “Avada Kedavra” like that. There’s no outrage when he said it there. [laughs]
Micah: But I’m a believer that there needs to be intention behind it. If he’s just saying it, it doesn’t mean anything.
Pat: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly.
Connecting the Threads
Andrew: The Umbridge Suck count stands at three still. Let’s connect some threads. Laura, what did you discover?
Laura: So this was really interesting; I had forgotten about this until I happened to flip to Chapter 4 in Prisoner of Azkaban. Arthur actually advocates for Harry’s right to know about Sirius escaping from Azkaban, much to Molly’s dismay. So Harry overhears them having an argument about this, and Arthur saying, “No, Harry has a right to know,” and Molly is saying, “No, he can’t know; it’ll just terrify him.” So we see this is, I think, a pretty direct parallel to this scene in Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix, about Molly really wanting to limit Harry’s exposure to information about Voldemort’s return. Also in Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban, Arthur asks Harry to swear that he won’t go looking for Sirius, and we also learn in Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix that Sirius is sworn to remain at headquarters. So in both cases, we see each of these characters being pressured to remain within certain confines, which is interesting, especially considering that in Prisoner of Azkaban at this point Sirius was on the run, and now he’s shut in almost like he’s back in prison. We also learn in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 4, Arthur tells Molly that Fudge is interfering in Daily Prophet reporting about Sirius’s escape from Azkaban. He doesn’t want the Prophet to be reporting how lost the Ministry is at this point, and how they’re really nowhere close to catching Sirius, and he’s doing the same thing here about Voldemort’s return, and we learn more about that in Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix. We also see in Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix, and in Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban, a really big parallel, or a really big contrast in terms of Fudge’s treatment of Harry and Dumbledore. So in this chapter, we learn about Fudge’s true feelings about Dumbledore and his attempts to undermine him, but in Prisoner of Azkaban, Fudge really goes out of his way to accommodate Harry’s safe travel back to Hogwarts by providing everybody with cars, Ministry-approved cars, to take them to King’s Cross Station and be sure that Harry arrives safely back at school. And then finally, in Chapter 5 of Prisoner of Azkaban, and in Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix, I would argue that Lupin gives Harry age appropriate educational details about Dementors and about Voldemort. So in both cases, Lupin is being very intentional about what kind of information he gives Harry about the Dark Arts.
Andrew: Good stuff. Nice research.
Laura: Thank you, thank you.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Time for MVP of the week. I’m going to give it to Dumbledore for still controlling the situation even when he’s not there. Good job. He’s powerful.
Micah: I went with Remus for – sorry, Laura – being the voice of reason.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: It’s okay; I’ll give up my crown.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I went with Arthur for a similar reason, but I said for seeing sense and knowing that it’s part of their job to ensure that Harry gets facts. He mentions early on in this conversation that it’s important that if Harry is going to hear the information anywhere, that he gets it directly from the source, and not through secondhand word of mouth, like maybe Fred and George overhearing snippets over the Extendable Ears.
Pat: I went with the kitchen table because just in this chapter, it got stabbed by a knife and a cauldron left a big gouge in it. So it’s still standing strong, and it’s kind of the center of the entire chapter.
Micah: I like that.
Andrew: Yeah, it went through a lot. Poor kitchen table.
Rename the Chapter
Andrew: Let’s rename the Chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “But Dumbledore Said…”
Micah: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “On a Need to Know Basis.”
Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “Dumbledore’s Detractors.”
Pat: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “How About a Game of 20 Questions?”
Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion or maybe a question or some feedback about Chapter 6, write in. Just go to MuggleCast.com and click the “Contact” link at the top, or email MuggleCast@gmail.com. We also have our voicemail line, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. When you call it, just make sure to keep your message around a minute long and make sure you’re in a quiet space, and we prefer you don’t speak to us through car Bluetooth systems because the quality isn’t that good. Or you could just use the Voice Memo app on your phone and email that file to MuggleCast@gmail.com. In recent weeks, we have enjoyed playing Voice Memos because they’re super high quality; it’s like you’re in the studio with us.
Quizzitch
Andrew: Time now for Quizzitch; it will go on even though Eric isn’t here. Last week’s question: What is the name of Bill Weasley’s unwitting informant into the goblin point of view? The answer is Ragnok. I keep wanting to say Ragnarok, like Thor.
Laura: Oh my God, I did the same thing.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: The correct answer is Thor: Ragnarok, available in iTunes now. Winners include Greg, who has been making his Twitter name the answer to the Quizzitch question, which was pretty funny. Also, SpeechInTheCity, Issy, and DancingInTheRain. This week’s question: The Black family tapestry reads “The Most Noble and Ancient House of Black,” but what is written directly beneath that line? It’s in French, but we will take the French or English translation. And I say that because I don’t know how to pronounce the French version, so if I’m reading next week’s answer, I’ll read it in English. [laughs]
Micah: I got you, Andrew. Don’t worry.
Andrew: Oh, you know it? Okay, great.
Micah: I took seven years of French, so hopefully.
Andrew: Did you really?
Micah: I did, yeah.
Andrew: Why didn’t this come up while we were talking about Crimes of Grindelwald for months, which was set in Paris?
Micah: I don’t know.
Andrew: Okay, great.
Pat: Micah, so full of secrets.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: What other secrets are you hiding? What other languages do you know? Next week could you speak in French the whole episode?
Micah: I could try; I don’t know how successful I would be.
Andrew: What if Eric came back and you just were speaking French 100% of the time?
Micah: There you go.
Andrew: And we don’t tell him what happened.
Micah: Yeah, no, we could try that. Well, we are just about a week away – less than a week away – from LeakyCon Boston. Eric and I will be there October 11-13 at the Seaport Hotel & World Trade Center, and got a bunch of things going on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. On Friday, we will be doing a panel called “Podcasting with Potter”; it is a look back over the years of podcasting in the Harry Potter world. On Saturday, we’re going to be doing a bit of a challenge with the folks over at Pottercast called “Name that Character.” And then on Sunday, we will be doing MuggleCast Live with Chris Rankin, who played Percy Weasley in the Potter films. All of these panels are going to be taking place on the main stage at LeakyCon. Check the schedule for times, just because all of that is always subject to change, but we’ll put the times in the show notes as they stand right now. And then one other thing to mention, we will be doing a MuggleCast meetup for listeners who are at LeakyCon or just live in the Boston area; it’ll be taking place on Saturday, October 12, at Hopsters Brewing Company, which is just a short walk from the hotel, from about 5-7 p.m. We know there’s a lot going on Saturday evening that the con-goers are going to want to get to, including the ball; that’s always a big thing for folks attending the con, so we’re doing it right after the Name that Character session and just before the ball. So we’re looking forward to meeting everybody in Boston that’s going to be there.
Andrew: Just a couple of quick reminders: We’ve added more episodes to the MuggleCast RSS feed; it now goes down to Episode 50, so if you’re a newer listener and maybe you want to go back into our archive, or maybe you’ve been listening for a while and just want to relive the glory days, you can just scroll down within your feed, and you should find all of our older episodes now.
Pat: That’s awesome. I’m pretty sure I started listening to you guys at Episode 50, somewhere around there.
Andrew: Oh, really? That’s funny.
[Pat laughs]
Andrew: And then just a few weeks later was the infamous Laura’s Pants episode, and you were like, “Wow, I’m addicted to the show.”
[Laura and Pat laugh]
Pat: Always for Laura’s pants.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: When Laura stayed with us, I don’t think she left any pants here, did she, Pat?
Pat: No.
Laura: No, I didn’t, and it’s unfortunate because that’s my calling card. I just leave my pants at your house when I stay there. [laughs]
Andrew: And then people will want to talk to you later?
Pat: I was just going to say, it’s not your trademark anymore.
Andrew: And also, don’t forget to follow us on social media; username @MuggleCast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. You’ll get behind-the-scenes looks at the show, you’ll get show previews, you’ll get clips from the show… we also try to keep you up to date on Harry Potter news. So if you have any of those social media apps, be sure to follow us there; we would really appreciate it. And one last reminder to pledge on Patreon today to get instant access to lots of benefits, including access to our recording studio; we record every Saturday or Sunday, and by becoming a patron and pledging at any level, you will be able to hop into our recording studio and hear the raw, unedited version of the show as we are recording it, and you can also jump into a chat room to discuss the show as it’s happening with fellow listeners, as well as with us. We’re always keeping an eye on the chat as it’s going on. So thanks to everybody who’s joining us this morning and every week. Many more benefits, including exclusive access to our Facebook group, where people talk about everything Harry Potter every day; that group is a lot of fun. People have been sharing their tote bags. People have been talking about their new housing assignments from WizardingWorld.com. There’s a lot going on there; it’s a really great community of Harry Potter fans, and you will have access to that group if you pledge at the Dumbledore’s Army level on Patreon. Again, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Please pledge today; we would really appreciate your support. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: I’m Laura.
Pat: And I’m Pat.
Andrew: Bye, everybody.
Micah: Bye.
Laura: See ya.