Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #467, Stranger Danger (OOTP 30, Grawp)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: We missed everybody last week, but we are back. It is June. Summer is always a great time for Harry Potter fans. We remember the books that came out over the summer; that was always a very special time.
News
Andrew: And believe it or not, J.K. Rowling, over the past week, announced another children’s book! This is something she has not done since she finished the Harry Potter series back in 2007. It’s called The Ickabog, and it is a political fairy tale. This is the one she has been teasing for a while. Has anybody read this yet?
Laura: I read Chapter 1.
Andrew: Do you like it so far?
Laura: Yeah. I mean, it’s very much… you can tell that it’s a morality tale about the abuses of power by certain leadership, so it’s, I think, very timely, not just for now, but you could really apply it to a lot of different time frames and countries. So it really is applicable for teaching the kinds of lessons about the abuses of power that we see in Harry Potter, even though The Ickabog has nothing to do with Harry Potter.
Micah: Did anybody else think Ichabod Crane when they heard the name? Or was that just me?
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Yeah, it’s a very unique sounding word.
Andrew: She said,
“The idea for The Ickabog came to me while I was still writing Harry Potter. I wrote most of a first draft in fits and starts between Potter books, intending to publish it after Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. However, after the last Potter book I wanted to take a break from publishing, which ended up lasting five years. In that time I wrote The Casual Vacancy and Robert Galbraith wrote The Cuckoo’s Calling.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: “After some dithering I decided I wanted to step away from children’s books for a while. At that point, the first draft of The Ickabog went up into the attic, where it’s remained for nearly a decade. Over time I came to think of it as a story that belonged to my two younger children, because I’d read it to them in the evenings when they were little, which has always been a happy family memory. The Ickabog is a story about truth and the abuse of power. To forestall one obvious question…”
And Laura, you may have been wondering this…
“… the idea came to me well over a decade ago, so it isn’t intended to be read as a response to anything that’s happening in the world right now. The themes are timeless and could apply to any era or any country.”
And I will also add, J.K. Rowling said when announcing this book that the pandemic kind of inspired her to finally publish this because she knew kids needed something to read right now. So she is publishing this chapter by chapter on her website now through early July, and then it will be published in physical and ebook formats this November. So I haven’t started reading it yet because I’d rather read it once it’s all out, so maybe I’ll wait until… I won’t wait till November, but once it’s all published online.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: And by the way, she also said that proceeds from the book will be going to funds that will help people who are struggling during the pandemic, which is great.
Micah: You just can’t handle the anticipation, can you, Andrew?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Going from one day to the next. I think there’s ten chapters that have been released to date.
Andrew: Yeah, and there’s like, 34 total. And they’re kind of short, right? So I just don’t want to jump in and out.
Micah: Just to add one other thing to what you said, though, about the publication portion of it: She is encouraging young kids to submit art that will eventually be published in these books, depending upon the region in which they’re submitted. So I think that’s actually really cool, that kids that are 7 to 9, I think the age range is, will get the opportunity to have their artwork published in a book by J.K. Rowling.
Andrew: It is cool. Yeah, what an incredible opportunity. Everybody follows J.K. Rowling on Twitter. Everybody knows that she has been, over the past few days, retweeting a lot – a lot – of illustrations by children after they read these chapters of the Ickabog. And it was… honestly, I had to mute J.K. Rowling because it was too many tweets. [laughs] I mean, it’s probably 200 at this point. And I get why she’s doing it, and it’s her Twitter account, whatever. But I decided that I would do my own sketch of the Ickabog.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: And I didn’t tweet it to J.K. Rowling…
Micah: But you haven’t read it yet, so how do you know what it looks like?
Andrew: Well, I looked at the illustrations by children, and I just made mine based on that. [laughs]
Eric: Oh my God.
Micah: It has to come from within, Andrew. You have to feel the Ickabog within you.
Andrew: [laughs] So I drew something really bad on my iPad, and I said, “Pat, tweet this to her.” I didn’t want her to… just in case she recognized me.
Micah: And how did Pat do that? What did he say? “This is from my 7-year-old nephew”?
Eric: He said son.
Andrew: Yes, I’ll read you the tweet.
Eric: Oh, God.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: “Hi, J.K. Rowling. My son Andrew just turned 10, and drew his version of Ickabog on my iPad. I thought this guy was just yelling for Ickabog, but Andrew informs me he is just screaming his own name.” So J.K. Rowling did not retweet this, but she did favorite it, and that is the first time that Pat has been favorited by J.K. Rowling. You’re welcome, Pat.
Eric: Wow, congrats to Pat.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I’ve not been favorited by J.K. Rowling, so he’s got a leg up on me.
Eric: I read this tweet in the wild; I happened to just come across it. I said to myself, “I didn’t know Pat had a son, and I didn’t know Pat had…” like, probably from a previous relationship.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: “And I didn’t know his kid was named Andrew.”
Laura: “That’s weird!”
Eric: I completely fell for it. I completely fell.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Wow. Well, now it all comes full circle.
Andrew: How long did it take for you to realize what was going on? [laughs]
Eric: Well, I did a double take, and then I was like, “But this artwork really doesn’t look like a 30-year-old man drew it, so I’m still confused.”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Well, yeah. I’m not a good artist.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Now, is Pat okay with the fact that his tweet was liked by J.K. Rowling on the basis of a lie?
Andrew: [laughs] Well…
Eric: It’s bad karma.
Micah: Or does it not matter? It’s just, “She liked it; I’m good with it”?
Eric: Ill-gotten gains.
Andrew: He knew what he was getting into. He’s dating somebody who trolls J.K. Rowling full time. I see she’s still retweeting drawings this morning, so panel, why don’t you guys draw something and send it to her and pretend you’re an 8-year-old, and maybe she’ll share it?
Eric: So is the goal, then, to cover The Ickabog after it’s been all online? Is that what we can tell people?
Andrew: Yeah, I think so. She will have finished publishing The Ickabog online right around the time we’re wrapping up our Chapter by Chapter series for Order of the Phoenix. So I would expect us to do a review, spend an episode reviewing the book, just talking about the book in mid to late July, maybe early August.
Eric: Got it.
Andrew: But yeah. And I mean, the other thing to keep in mind is I think this is geared towards younger audiences, even younger than Harry Potter was. So we may not have too much to say about it, but we will definitely talk about it.
Eric: Cool.
Andrew: So in some other news, all of the Harry Potter movies are finally available in one streaming app in the United States. This actually came by surprise. HBO Max just launched. This is the new Netflix and Hulu; this is a new competitor for them. It’s got thousands of movies, TV shows, original series – of course, just like Netflix and Hulu – and we actually weren’t expecting Harry Potter to be there, even though it would make sense, because Warner Media owns the Harry Potter series. We didn’t expect the movies to be there because NBC had a deal in which they had the streaming rights through 2025, but HBO somehow bought the rights back, and now all eight Harry Potter movies, plus Fantastic Beasts 2 – but not Fantastic Beasts 1 – are on HBO Max. Are any of you signing up for this?
Micah: No.
Eric: I have it. And yeah, I was very surprised to see Harry Potter on there, as well as a lot of old Looney Tunes and a bunch of other series I never got to watch, like Westworld, so I’m looking forward to it. It’s nice to know that Harry Potter streaming is accessible to me. I do have all the DVDs and Blu-rays, but it’s always nice to see, oh, if I am stranded somewhere but I have Internet access, I can watch a Harry Potter movie.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: So here’s the question that I have, though, is if you are already a subscriber to HBO and you have HBO Go, what’s the difference? Is it just the library is larger for HBO Max?
Andrew: Yes, it is the same price as HBO. Basically, HBO Max is the new digital HBO. Your account may actually work with HBO Max; you should try logging in. That’s their goal; it’s to make all the existing HBO Go and HBO Now accounts work on HBO Max, but it depends on which cable provider you have, and did you buy the subscription directly from HBO, stuff like that. But you should be able to log in. Give it a try, Micah, and then watch Sex and the City.
Micah: I will let you know on the next episode.
Andrew: Okay, cool.
Micah: You want to watch together, since you…?
Andrew: Sure.
Micah: Okay.
Andrew: To Eric’s point, it is nice to be able to access the movies without having to pop in a disc. I know some people are saying, “Well, what’s the big deal? We all have the movies anyway.” Yeah, but this is… we’re in a world of streaming these days, and it’s nice to have all movies there. And by the way, if a Harry Potter TV series ever happens, I think it will happen on HBO Max, since they are owned by Warner Media, who owns Warner Bros.
Micah: Yeah. And I mean, the only downside, I would say, is I did like the ability to flip through the channels every once in a while and come across a Potter movie, and I know you said NBC previously had the rights. That said, the only downside to that was the commercials.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: And when you get into a lot of these stations, whether it was Syfy or whatever the subsidiaries of NBC are, would play these movies, they would play the editions that had the deleted scenes in them, so in some cases, you’re talking about movies being four hours or close to four hours in length with commercials slotted in there. And so I do like the ability, like you said, to be able to go to one place and just watch it. If you wanted to do a marathon yourself, you have the ability to start and stop it when you want.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly. And by the way, they still will be airing on television. NBC still has the TV rights.
Eric: Nice.
Andrew: In some other news, WizardingWorld.com continues to roll out their chapter by chapter reading of the first Harry Potter book. Chapter 5 was narrated by Simon Callow, Bonnie Wright, Evanna Lynch, and Chapter 6 was narrated by the Cursed Child cast. Chapter 7 was narrated by Olivia Coleman, and they had some cameos: Jonathan Van Ness from Queer Eye, and Kate McKinnon, best known for being on SNL. They read the Sorting Hat lines.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Jonathan Van Ness did the song, and then Kate McKinnon did a part a little bit later, and those were really good. And then Chapter 8, a major star from India, Alia Bhatt; she read that chapter with a cameo from Alec Baldwin and his daughter. So now they’re starting to add these cameos as well.
Micah: Yeah, I find it interesting, though, that they’re not spreading it out a little bit more. Why not give an entire chapter to Evanna or Bonnie or even some of these other actors or actresses? I mean, the cameo idea is cool, but I would imagine that there’s going to be a demand for this beyond just Sorcerer’s Stone, so that’s why I’m thinking that they may want to give this a little bit more runway than they are.
Eric: I mean, they fit the whole cast of Cursed Child into the one chapter by just getting everybody to take one character and announcing… I mean, I saw that it happened; I haven’t listened yet, but there’s just so much… even in this content… I’m just fascinated by this sprawling new content artform kind of thing they’re going for. I don’t know what it is, but it’s actually just hard to keep up with. Between this and The Ickabog, you could spend…
Micah: Content overload.
Eric: Content overload! All of a sudden.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Oh, you people.
Eric: Zero to a million. I just think there’s so much going on, it’s like, “Oh, before I turn around, I do a 360 degree turn, and all of a sudden there’s a new chapter being read by six or seven different actors I’ve heard of.”
Micah: By the time this episode is released, though… I happened to catch The View – my mom watches The View every day – and I believe Whoopi Goldberg is going to be reading a chapter next week, so that’s a nice preview. She’s a huge Potter fan, by the way.
Laura: Yep. I’ll be there for that. Love Whoopi.
Andrew: I guess my only comment on this is I’m surprised they’re already using people who weren’t in the Harry Potter movies.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: I was expecting more people from the Harry Potter movies, but maybe there will be towards the end of the book. All right, also just want to say thank you to MuggleCast listener Sonia for getting me a canvas print of J.K. Rowling’s infamous Wormtaily tweet for my birthday. She sent this to the P.O. Box, and Eric got it to me. I just posted a picture in Slack for you guys to see it, but it’s also on our Patreon, and we should probably post it on social media. This is wonderful because it was a very dark, but in hindsight, great moment in my life, and now I can hang up this tweet and always be reminded of J.K. Rowling hating on my website.
Micah: A dark moment? No, I think… didn’t we rationalize this whole thing on a previous episode?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yes, she was encouraging…
Micah: She did it to actually drive people to your website.
Laura: Right.
Andrew: The day it happened, though, it was traumatizing.
Micah: Oh, I see.
Andrew: That’s what I mean.
Micah: So it brought back some memories. I see.
Andrew: Yes, yes. But no, I love it. Thank you, Sonia. I greatly appreciate that.
Laura: Andrew, what would you have done if she had responded to your depiction of the Ickabog with hashtag Wormtaily?
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: She knew.
Andrew: It’d be time for another canvas.
Micah: I actually also have one thank you as well, and this was something that I got several weeks ago, so I apologize for not saying thank you before this. Mev sent me a stuffed goat.
Eric: We all got one.
Laura: Yep.
Micah: Oh, you did?
Andrew: She sent all four of us goats. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, we all goat mail.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Yes, I think it’s great. This company, YouGoatMail.com.
Andrew: Wow. Why does that exist?
Micah: It’s a great question. I wonder what else they sell besides stuffed goats.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Yeah. I have mine next to my desk.
Laura: Same.
Andrew: Thank you, Mev. That was very nice.
Laura: I love it.
Andrew: Also, now’s the time to support the show and help it grow, because we’ve just announced the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt! As everybody should know by now, it features a new crest to celebrate our birthday, and it’s available in two cuts and colors. Pledge by June 30 at Patreon.com/MuggleCast and remain a patron for at least three months to receive one for yourself. And a little bit of news, we have some people who still haven’t filled out the form on Patreon, so please, if you are already a patron, make sure you do that. We’ll post another link in the days ahead so you can easily access it, because obviously, we need your size and your cut and your color preference. And Slug Club members, please fill it out by June 8, because we are going to be sending out T-shirts to Slug Club members first, and everybody else who pledges at the Dumbledore’s Army level, you will receive a shirt a few weeks later. So we’re really excited to start getting these shirts out; we just wanted to prioritize Slug Club members so we can send out a smaller wave at the beginning. So pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you very much; we really appreciate your support, and obviously there’s tons of other benefits there for you to enjoy as well, so if you’re bored right now and maybe you want to support this podcast because you love it, head to Patreon. Help us out. Pledge at any level, whatever you can afford. We would deeply appreciate it.
Listener Feedback
Andrew: Okay, it’s time for some Muggle Mail now, and we’re going to start with a voicemail.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hi, Melissa here from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I was inspired by your conversations about Head students and prefects last week to think more deeply about both James Potter and Ron Weasley. I think the fact that Ron was given the position of prefect is a link to the chapter ‘Grawp,’ which you will be talking about, specifically in relation to Ron’s Quidditch win and confidence. Oftentimes positions like prefect and Head Boy are opportunities for people to grow in their maturity and leadership in ways that might not be possible without those positions. Laura mentioned how sometimes anxiety is used as a tool for pushing students to grow academically, and I think being given a position of responsibility is a way teachers can push students to grow personally. I know Dumbledore says he didn’t give Harry the position because Harry would already have a trying year, but maybe this isn’t just an action against Harry, but rather one to help Ron mature in ways that Harry already has. We don’t often see actions done for Ron’s benefit; usually they’re for Harry. I also wonder if this is why Dumbledore gave James Potter the Head Boy shift, even though James was a rule breaker and not a prefect. As a mentor, Dumbledore might have seen the potential of James to be a great leader, fighter, and defender, as he was in the Order of the Phoenix, but did not see events in James life that would push him to mature quickly enough to do so.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: That’s a great point. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Eric: Yeah, definitely.
Laura: All right, and we have some Muggle Mail here. This one comes from Stacy. Stacy says,
“Two thoughts based on the most recent episode… First, Harry overlooking all of the other people he could have asked about James (he never considered sending a letter to Remus, which asking about his dad would have probably been okay by Umbridge’s standards, and one of the first things Hagrid ever said to Harry was that he knew his parents) really shows just how much Sirius came to mean to him in such a short time, which makes the end of the book so much worse. Like Eric said, it almost seemed like J.K. Rowling was building the relationship up just to utterly destroy all of us readers. Second, it never occurred to me before, but there’s a very interesting connecting the future threads between McGonagall standing up for Harry in this chapter and Harry standing up for McGonagall at the end of Deathly Hallows when Amycus spits on her. For all the rule-breaking he did, both examples really speak to how much mutual respect they hold for each other.”
Laura: Good point, Stacy.
Micah: Very good. I like that future connecting the threads.
Laura: Yeah!
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: And probably just worth mentioning this Muggle Mail had tied directly into our last episode, but the next few actually go back and talk about Snape’s Worst Memory.
Eric: Okay, I’ll take this next one. This one is from Melissa.
“To Pat’s point – memories are very biased and conditional and I think Snape’s memories are incredibly biased and conditional. I think this does play a role in the books, even with a suspension of disbelief, because it seems Snape’s memory leaves out so much about his own bullying actions both towards the Marauders and other students (as shown later on), so this memory really skews the relationship between Snape and the Marauders to a point where I think many Harry Potter fans think Marauders = bad, Snape = poor victim. In reality, Snape’s own later memories show this is not the whole story. I don’t think you can make a judgement on other people’s behaviors from Snape’s memories when he seems so unaware of his own actions and the impact they have on other people. Plus, his bias colors everything. I think this correlates to what Pat was saying about conditional memories: It is hard to judge the truth/reality of a situation from one person’s memory because of the prevalence of bias and the mind’s tendency to fill in memories with false details to fit a person’s worldview. I think Snape likes to see himself as a victim to maybe make up for behavior he knows is cruel – trying to give himself an out through the Marauders’ ‘bullying’ even though it seems he gave just as much back to them and to other students at Hogwarts. The Marauders were certainly not right, but I just don’t buy that they were as bad as Snape makes them out to be (or the movies, or many fans). Sirius and James are certainly shown to have matured into admirable adults, while no one in the books ever says the same for Snape, even Dumbledore.”
Eric: I’ve got to say, I like this bit at the end about maturing from teenagership, her claim that nobody would say that Snape has matured. That part I find interesting because I think that seems to be the truest where we see him actively bullying students. Think of his relentless attack on Neville – I know we had a recent email about that, too – but he’s just so petty. As a grown man in charge of teaching these children, his behavior at times is very, very uncalled for.
Andrew: In terms of how accurate Snape’s memories were, though, I think that was confirmed because when Harry goes to meet with Sirius and Lupin, every detail matches.
Eric: Yes.
Andrew: They even bring up, “Oh, was James tossing the Snitch?” And that’s a random thing for Remus or Sirius to bring up, but they do because it really happened, and I think that was the point, it was to tell the reader that this memory was accurate.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. The Pensieve presents memories in an unbiased way. If you only saw Snape’s Worst Memory, you’d be like, “Oh, Snape, poor victim,” but the Pensieve makes it whole, I want to say.
Micah: Right.
Eric: That’s the magic of a Pensieve.
Micah: I thought of two things here. One is that if a memory was to have bias or try to be altered, we see what happens in Half-Blood Prince, right, with Slughorn’s memory?
Laura: Ooh, yep.
Micah: There’s a certain something about it that just seems a little bit off.
Eric: A haziness.
Micah: Yeah. I do like the point that Melissa makes, though, about Snape never fully maturing the way that, let’s say, James does, because Sirius still has a bit of growing up to do himself as well.
Eric: Right.
Micah: But Snape just hasn’t seemed to be able to rid himself of the bitterness, to your point, Eric.
Laura: We talk about Sirius being kind of emotionally stunted, and we attribute that to the fact that he spent his entire young adult life post-Hogwarts in Azkaban. And yes, Snape did not suffer the same fate, but in a lot of ways, Snape has been in a prison of his own making, so I think that that also stunted somebody who might have otherwise been a more positive contributor to society.
Micah: And speaking of Azkaban, this next email from Matt starts off talking about that. He says,
“I think a big part of Sirius’s resentment towards Snape stems from the fact that he knows that Snape was an actual Death Eater who walked free. Sirius does not know the full circumstances regarding Snape switching sides, but it must be infuriating for him to see people like Snape, Karkaroff, and Lucius Malfoy enjoy freedom while he rotted away in Azkaban for something he didn’t do. I know you guys talked about how Harry is not very much like James, but I’m not so sure. Harry has no problem with the twins nearly killing Montague by shoving him in the Vanishing Cabinet. He also enjoys hexing people for fun in Half-Blood Prince. He practices the Leg-Lock Curse on Filch, and he tries out a curse on Goyle to make his toenails grow at an alarming rate. Harry did not express any sympathy for Malfoy when fake Moody turned him into a ferret and bounced him up and down. We know that Lily and Snape had been friends, so that changes my perception of her a bit too. If Snape had been dangling Sirius or Remus upside down, you bet your behind that James would come to their defense. If we saw a scene like this with zero context to James’s friendship with Sirius or Remus, we would be applauding James as a good samaritan as well.”
Andrew: Interesting.
Micah: Yeah, so I think the point Matt is making is it’s all about context, right? And it’s all about the perception of what’s happening in front of us and whose eyes we’re really seeing it through. But also, the first paragraph, I thought, was very interesting, about how Sirius probably does have a level of resentment deep down for a number of these Death Eaters that are just walking free while he is paying for something that he didn’t do.
Eric: That’s a good point.
Andrew: For sure. In terms of Harry acting out, though, I mean, nobody’s perfect, so I agree there’s some of James in Harry, but I still wouldn’t compare them too closely.
Micah: Yeah, the ferret example… I just have a hard time there because I think that they’re rivals, right? But they never really get to the point, Harry and Draco, outside of that Sectumsempra scene where they’re physically really doing damage to each other, and I think he’s just looking at that as a very funny moment where Malfoy finally just gets a little bit of what’s coming to him. And I’m sure we all have examples ourselves, where we’ve been in similar situations, where we’ve seen something happen to somebody where, obviously not serious, but we’re like, “Oh, that person finally got theirs” a little bit.
Eric: Well, and with the ferret scene, it’s a teacher doing that to Draco, and it’s like if your rival at school is scolded by the teacher, you’re probably going to gloat a little bit. I think that is normal.
Micah: Totally. Remember, Harry is 15.
Andrew: This final email today is from World’s Oddest Man.
“Hi, MuggleCast. I was listening to Episode 465 and I was thinking about the point that was brought up regarding the Marauders’ striking similarity to Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in the chapter discussion of Snape’s Worst Memory. Specifically, with James and Draco’s actions being eerily similar, I found it odd that Snape didn’t make this connection between them while Harry did. My hypothesis is that Harry had love in his life and Snape didn’t. Even though both had miserable childhoods, when they got to Hogwarts their experiences vastly differ. Harry was greeted with open arms and close friends that helped to give him perspective – there is love and caring in the world when you step out of the shadow of the Dursleys. Snape conversely found that the pain from his home life continued at Hogwarts through bullying from the Marauders and the fact that he didn’t have the love and support around him like Harry. The only evidence we have of anyone caring about Snape at all was Lily, and eventually he unwillingly pushed her away, into the arms of his bully and eventually to their deaths. The lack of love and the bullying trauma have combined to keep Snape stuck in a juvenile black and white mindset – bully or be bullied. This allows him to excuse Draco’s antics as it fits his worldview, as opposed to Harry, who can see the more nuanced connection between his father and Draco. Upon reflection, I feel the opposite viewpoints of Harry and Snape in this moment is where the theme of the series that Rowling sets up really shines through as a cautionary tale – love is the most powerful force in the world, and without it we are not whole.”
Andrew: Well, World’s Oddest Man, you are also the world’s greatest emailer, because I think this was a great point.
Micah: Yeah, I agree. See, the thing, though, with Snape is that I don’t think he cares. He sees so much of James and Harry that it doesn’t matter to him what Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle do; he’s relishing in the fact that they’re bullying Harry and his friends.
Andrew: All right, well, before we get to Chapter by Chapter, MeUndies is back to sponsor this week’s episode of MuggleCast, makers of the most comfortable and surprising underwear and loungewear. You know how Dobby gets a piece of clothing and he’s so happy it seems like he’ll never take it off? That’ll be you with MeUndies.
[Ad break]
Laura: Now I’m just imagining Dobby wearing a pair of MeUndies with, like, a dumpling pattern on them.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: There you go.
Laura: But on his head, right? He would wear it as a hat. [laughs]
Andrew: Right. He would never take them off, I promise you.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: We can let Jule know, and that’ll be on our social media post this week.
Laura: Perfect. [laughs]
Andrew: That’ll be the Photoshop this week, yeah.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Grawp.”
Micah: Grawp.
Andrew: And we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary. I won’t start with Harry. I won’t start with Harry. Hagrid…
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Eric: … reveals…
Micah: … another…
Laura: … giant…
Andrew: … secret…
Eric: … mistake…
Micah: … Grawp.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Comma, Grawp.
Laura: Oh, is Grawp a mistake, though?
Andrew: Well…
Eric: Bringing him to Hogwarts is.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: I wanted to start off because – and I shared this with Andrew – a couple days ago, we got an email, and I forget who the listener was who sent it in, and then I tried responding to them and their email didn’t work, so who knows if they’re really a person or not…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: … saying that, and I quote, we did a “disservice” in the last chapter by not really discussing Fred and George’s great escape from Hogwarts.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Now, I don’t know if I would call it a disservice, but we can talk a little bit more about it here at the top of the chapter, just given how much of a fallout there is from what happens at the end of the previous chapter.
Andrew: [laughs] You put this time into a response and couldn’t even get it to the person.
Micah: Which proves to everyone it’s not just something we like to say on the show, that we respond to all the emails. We do, and this is a perfect example. But let’s talk about our disservice to Fred and George.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Yeah, it’s a huge moment of defiance, there’s no question about it. Even the things that they say to Umbridge, I don’t think Harry would ever fathom of saying to her face.
Andrew: Right. But they feel invincible, and I think that’s why they do it. And of course, they have this ego about them that we always see, but yeah, it did take a lot of guts, and I think it’ll probably go down in the school’s history as one of the… well, like it’s said, I think, by J.K. Rowling, they’ve reached legendary status.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: They completely defied the rules, they were protesting against Umbridge replacing Dumbledore and all the other things that Umbridge has done, and they had no shame about it, and they pulled it off spectacularly.
Eric: The funny part is, as fantastic as their exit was – and I don’t think you’ll find anyone on this panel that disagrees, it was a wonderful exit of theirs – the eyewitness accounts only get stranger over the next week of Hogwarts history. And I love that J.K. Rowling is touching on how unreliable memory is, or how people tend to embellish when they’re excited, so that the official record, or the official account orally told between students years from now will probably involve things like the twins dive-bombing Umbridge and things like that, which they didn’t do. Their words were strong, but they kept it real tight and just did as much as they did, but people are going to embellish anyway.
Micah: True. Yeah, and we get the great “Give her hell from us, Peeves” line at the end of that chapter, and seemingly a level of respect is established, if it didn’t already exist between Peeves and the Weasley twins, though I think they probably got along pretty well over their time at Hogwarts.
Andrew: Probably.
Micah: They’re both all about the same thing, which is creating mischief.
Laura: Yeah, I think there would have been a level of mutual respect there.
Andrew: One of the former MuggleCast cohosts, Matt, was very inspired by that “Give her hell from us, Peeves.” That was his AIM screen name back in the day.
Eric: [laughs] That’s right!
Andrew: “Give her hell, Peeves.”
Eric: [laughs] Well, and what I love from this chapter is that the teachers are also on Peeves’s side. McGonagall, Harry could swear, he hears telling Peeves that the chandelier unscrews the other direction than what he’s trying. I’m just like, “Man, McGonagall is into some property damage here.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: McGonagall is like, “Righty tighty, lefty loosey.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: She just never walks away from a teachable moment. She wants to instruct everyone.
Micah: Yeah, totally. And now the school is really in open rebellion. As you said, the professors are not looking, or I should say, they’re looking the other way completely when things are going on. Whether it’s the McGonagall moment you just mentioned, the swamp that the Weasley twins created… it still exists, and it really requires that that section of Hogwarts be completely locked off, and I think it’s mentioned Filch has to actually ferry students across the swamp in order for them to get from one side to the next. And we assume that professors like McGonagall, Flitwick, others could easily remedy the situation, but they’re choosing not to. They’re choosing to let it just play itself out. They’re almost… I know the school is in rebellion, but the professors are in rebellion here, too, against Umbridge.
Laura: Right. Well, they also know that she’s too proud to ask them for help, so if she’s not willing to ask, then why would they be willing to do anything?
Micah: Right, and I think even Flitwick has a line in a previous chapter; it’s when the Weasley twins set off the fireworks, and he mentions, “Oh, I could have taken care of it, but I didn’t know if I was allowed to.”
Andrew: [laughs] Good point.
Micah: So it’s one of those really great moments from these different professors, and just seeing how they’re reacting. And yeah, Peeves has been given free reign, not that he didn’t have it before…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: … but nobody is really standing in his way of creating just absolute chaos. Doesn’t he lock Mrs. Norris in a suit of armor somewhere?
Eric: Aww, poor kitty.
Andrew: Well, that’s mean. That’s animal abuse.
Micah: [laughs] Oh, now we’re going to… okay.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot of things we could touch on here.
Andrew: Well, how about this Niffler, though? So there’s this theory that it was Hagrid who put the Niffler in Umbridge’s office, and I actually kind of think that McGonagall being up to a little mischief herself implies that it really was Hagrid who put the Niffler in Umbridge’s office.
Eric: Hagrid denies it, and this is something that he confides in the kids, in Harry and Hermione when they’re in the woods on the way to or from Grawp, that he’s going to be sacked because of it. Umbridge really thinks it’s him. And if it wasn’t him, I really want to know who it was, because presumably, it’s difficult to come across a Niffler, such a destructive, albeit small beast. Who has access to a Niffler and who would think to put one in Umbridge’s office, besides Hagrid?
Laura: Newt.
Andrew: [laughs] Newt? Newt came back to troll Umbridge.
Eric: Did Newt Scamander come in town? Are people writing him, going, “She’s crazy; you gotta help”?
Andrew: That’s kind of the thing. You would think it wasn’t a student, because if a student had been holding on to a Niffler, that Niffler would have been running around the school all the time anyway, so I think it had to be somebody who didn’t live in the school.
Micah: It’s a vicious Niffler, too, because it’s gnawing at her rings on her fingers too.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: It’s not a nice Niffler like Newt has.
Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think all Nifflers would probably behave that same way if introduced to so many chintzy shiny objects that Umbridge has. I don’t feel a lick bad for her, but it is just so, I guess, exciting to see the ways in which… this whole thing is ruminations on power and where power comes from, and if Umbridge does not have the support of her own teaching staff, then she is going to suffer, and she really hasn’t earned the respect or the, I guess, loyalty of the staff. She’s really isolated herself, and she’s appointing students to uphold her rules, but all of the teachers are just like, “At this point, you’ve reached the point of no return here, and we are not going to submit to your authority.” I think, really, firing Dumbledore was probably the linchpin there.
Micah: Yeah, I was going to say you really get a sense for what the school looks like when Dumbledore is not there, or you just have incompetent leadership, and that’s what exists with Umbridge being in charge. She wants to enforce her way of doing things, but especially once the Weasley twins do what they do at the end of the last chapter, it inspires – it encourages – these other students and the staff to act this way now. “If the Weasley twins can do it, then so can we, and we’re not going… and we far outweigh in numbers Umbridge and her Inquisitorial Squad.” One thing I wanted to touch on… I know we mentioned Filch helping these students across the swamp area. The word that’s actually used in the US edition – and Eric, you pointed it out here – is “punting.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: And all of us here in the US are familiar with American football, and when you think of punting, you think of kicking. So I’m surprised that this word wasn’t changed at all in in the US edition, because the thought that comes to mind… because first it’s like, Filch has a horse whip; that’s what’s first mentioned, so it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t know he was into S&M.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: And then now he’s kicking students – it sounds like, anyway – across this swamp, and you’re just thinking to yourself, “Wait, what? What’s going on here?”
Eric: This gets me every time. It was only on this reread that I’m like, “Okay, I have to finally figure out what the hell punting is.” Because it just it reads so funnily. The Harry Potter translators, man – like the British to English translators – they were MIA this whole book.
Andrew: Well, but wait a second, maybe the American editor thought that punting meant kicking here…
Micah: It’s possible.
Andrew: … because it’s Filch, so yeah, of course Filch would kick the kids.
Eric: Maybe.
Laura: I’m sure they… also, it’s just we’re not infants over here. We don’t need to have the books completely Americanized.
Andrew: Yes, thank you.
Eric: I disagree, Laura. You know my opinion on this.
Andrew: Eric, you’re just embarrassing yourself when you say that. We can’t have our hands held. [laughs]
Eric: I need my hands held. I need it.
Andrew: Be cultured.
Micah: No, I agree, Laura. But my point being is if they were going to make other changes like they did, then this would be one example where I think it would make sense to change the word, just so that…
Eric: Yeah, if a punt is a small boat, it’s pretty clear that… it’s dereliction of duty. You should write “boating.” He’s boating them across.
Micah: So I apologize to our UK listeners in advance. But just touching on a few other things: With the school being an open rebellion, the Inquisitorial Squad is also under attack. Warrington ends up being completely disfigured, Pansy Parkinson has grown antlers, and students on the whole, they’re putting Fred and George’s Skiving Snackboxes to use, and they’re claiming that they have what is called “Umbridge-itis.”
Andrew: And saying that to her! Right?
Micah: Yeah, saying it to her face.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: That takes… yeah.
Andrew: Which I think is a fast track to detention. I don’t know why you would have the guts to say that to her.
Eric: I mean, yeah, if it’s just you, that would be nuts; it would be crazy. But she ends up putting four successive classes in detention, it says. It’s just so many – what’s the word? – delinquent students, that she just can’t… it can’t be helped.
Micah: No, it can’t. But I think it’s great, and I love the fact that they’re so willing to say it to her face.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: One other thing that happens in this chapter that we get a payoff for, finally, is that Harry comes clean about his Triwizard Tournament winnings and that he gave them to Fred and George, and this all comes about because Ron is saying that his mom is going to blame him for the fact that his brothers peaced out of Hogwarts early. And for Ron, he really feels like he’s going to get the blame here, and I wondered why. Why does he feel that he’s responsible for Fred and George? He came to school after them.
Andrew: [laughs] Brothers, they stick together. They might help each other out at the school, and he’s thinking Molly was hoping that he would try to straighten out Fred and George? I don’t know.
Laura: Well, and I think he’s also thinking she probably had higher expectations of him because he’s a prefect.
Andrew and Eric: Right.
Eric: Yeah, there’s a weird transference going on where it seems like Molly expects Ron to behave more like Percy than like Fred and George, that Ron has always been expected to kind of be a little bit more in line, but that’s just not his nature, I don’t think.
Micah: I do think, though, that it could have just been an opportunity for J.K. Rowling to lead into the reveal of Harry providing the funds for the Weasley twins, because it seems like it’s been building up for some time now, right? There’s been questions over the course of… since the end of Goblet of Fire, “How did Fred and George get the resources to be able to do all this testing?” And then now they’re opening a shop up in Diagon Alley. And Hermione seems surprised, and then really after Harry, like, “Why did you give them the money?” I don’t understand why she’s so upset here or looks to give Harry a hard time.
Andrew: Because they’re in the prank business, and he’s bankrolling their prank business. This is everything she hates, and Harry is funding it.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: I think she still has… breaking the rules doesn’t come easy to her, or natural at all, and I think she still has a lot of anxiety about doing things a little less by the book.
Laura: Well, also, it was a lot of money. Like, what, 700 Galleons?
Eric: A thousand.
Laura: Oh, a thousand. Yeah, so even more. So I think she’s just thinking of it from the perspective of… I guess it would be something along the lines of if I loaned one of you $100,000 – not that I have $100,000 – so that you could go off and open a joke shop. I think my own mother would be like, “What are you doing?”
Andrew: [laughs] But Harry already has tons of money. If you had a million dollars and you lent me $100,000, I would be like, “Can I have more money?”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: No, I would be like, “Well, okay, that makes sense, because you have plenty of money to spare.”
Laura: Never gonna happen. Broke for life.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, and it wasn’t like it wasn’t well thought through on Harry’s part, because doesn’t he make sure that the twins buy something for Ron as well at the end of Goblet?
Laura: Oh, yeah, new dress robes.
Micah: And I just think that Fred and George have been brothers to Harry, and in many ways, I would say, more so than they’ve been brothers to Ron, at least from what we’ve read in this series. And the fact that there’s that connection, Harry just felt like he was investing in their future, and it was clear that their future was not going to be in some sort of academic field; it was going to be in the creation of this type of fun, joke-related stuff.
Eric: And I love how it finally comes out, because Hermione and Ron are initially speculating in front of Harry much worse scenarios, right? Like maybe they’re in with Mundungus on the illegal item trade. And Harry, who’s been really struggling with coming clean about this from, as you say, at least the beginning of this book, is finally like, “Okay, it’s at the point where it’s getting so much worse that they don’t know what is happening. The speculation is going rampant. I should just tell them.” And so it’s almost to clear their name that Harry reveals that he gave the money to Fred and George. He doesn’t want them being thought of as criminals, because they’re not criminals. I thought that was a very good character moment for Harry to finally fess up.
Andrew: I think Harry is just really impressed by what the twins have done, and he wants to see them thrive, so he decided to fund their business. And like I said, a year or two ago I wish he just took a stake in the business. I wish he had ownership.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I wish this was an episode of Shark Tank and he took 10% of the business for giving all these Galleons.
Micah: There you go.
Eric: Well, he does get everything he wants for free, right?
Micah: As he should.
Eric: The Harry Potter discount.
Andrew: Yeah, I’d rather still have a percentage, a cut.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Maybe Albus Severus gets an internship there in Cursed Child.
Andrew: Oh, there you go.
Laura: Well, yeah, somebody has to fill Fred’s position.
Micah: Oof.
Andrew: Wow.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: I mean, it’s one of the feel-good moments of the series, and Ron lights up because he’s like, “Great, now I’m not in trouble!”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: He asks Harry for permission. “Can I tell Mom that you did this?” [laughs]
Andrew: “Please let me pass the blame off.”
Micah: Next year, Harry’s Christmas sweater is going to have a big tear in the middle of it because Molly is pissed off. But I think that’s the best possible scenario, too, because you know Molly is not going to get mad at Harry.
Eric: Right. I think if she sees or hears that Harry did something, the default is to focus on the merits. Because at first you’re like, “Why the heck would he…? Oh, well, he did help them out. He’s always been a brother to them.”
Micah: So this is not the only thing that Hermione is bothering Harry about; the other thing is Occlumency, and Harry is struggling to clear his mind every night before bed. And I thought we could talk a little bit about if there’s something comparable to that in the real world, and I thought about meditation. And I know clearing your mind, meditating has become such a big thing today, particularly with everything that all of us are going through with the hiatus, the Coronavirus… it’s tough. And I think the expectation that a 15-year-old can just clear everything out of his mind with everything that Harry has going on right now, it’s a big expectation.
Eric: Right.
Micah: I don’t know how many others here meditate or use all the apps that are out there, but I just thought we could speak a little bit from our own experiences and how challenging it is to actually do that.
Andrew: Yeah, especially when you’ve had a long day or maybe you’re anticipating the next day. I mean, there’s always crazy stuff happening at Hogwarts, so how can you possibly go to bed knowing that tomorrow will be sort of peaceful at all?
Laura: Right. It’s also just… like Micah was saying, it’s just really hard, in general, to clear your mind. It’s something that… you have to learn how to meditate. The first time that you sit down to do it, you’re not going to do it right.
Andrew: And also, the other problem is that Harry doesn’t really want to. He wants to get through that door at the end of the hall.
Micah: Right.
Laura: See, honestly, their first mistake is he should be doing this in the morning at the start of his day.
Eric: Ahh.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Because if you try to clear your mind at the end of a full day, it’s going to be a lot harder, but you can clear your mind in the morning; that way you’re going into the day relaxed, fully meditated, and then when you try to clear it at night, it’s maybe a little bit easier.
Micah: That’s a really good point. And yeah, Andrew, what you said about he now has this goal deep within him, whether that’s him personally wanting to figure out what the Hall of Prophecy is now that he has actually gotten through the door, or it’s Voldemort wanting to snatch the prophecy down from wherever it’s being housed right now. I mean, I know I’ve had dreams where it’s like you wake up in the middle; you’re like, “Damn, I wanted that to continue. Where was it going?” And I think it’s the same thing for Harry. He wants answers, and when he has this eagerness within him, it’s hard to say, “Hey, clear that from your mind and don’t think about it.” I think Hermione has just some unfair expectations, because I’m not sure she’s ever tried this out herself, what she’s asking of Harry to do. Let’s think about it that way too.
Eric: I mean, the stakes are just so high. She doesn’t have to practice because Voldemort is not trying to get into her mind. I think it just is a shame seeing how many opportunities Harry had to shape up, considering he falls hook, line, and sinker for Voldemort’s fake imagery in a couple chapters’ time.
Micah: Yeah. We also get a little bit of a tiff between Harry and Ron. After this conversation about Occlumency, Ron mentions to Hermione that Harry was talking in his sleep again, and Harry gets really pissed off at Ron for that. Ron is just trying to help. I mean, he’s got a big Quidditch match coming up; he’s thinking about how he’s going to try and save the day, or just keep out the other team from scoring about a hundred goals on him. So he’s got a lot happening.
Eric: [laughs] Ron is the secret MVP of this chapter.
Micah: He is, because he continues to have this uncanny ability to protect the future. And he mentions that “If Montague doesn’t recover before Slytherin play Hufflepuff, we might be in with a chance for winning the Cup,” and that’s exactly what happens. So Ron is the long descendant of Sybill Trelawney, fourth cousin removed.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Invest in this, too, Harry.
Eric: Yeah. He does it without Harry and Hermione’s support. And given that awful comment that Harry made, that he was dreaming about Ron almost catching the Quaffle – “Just a bit further, just a bit further” – that was just so… that was such a low blow for Harry to say that. I’m surprised Ron’s ego recovers enough to even do anything good at Quidditch.
Micah: Well, he knows he sucks. I mean, that’s probably a terrible thing to say, but I think he knows he’s not good deep down. But you’re right, that comment does seem to kind of just brush over Ron a little bit.
Eric: Yeah. But I mean, he is at the point where he’s accepted that he’s not good, and he says there’s nowhere to go but up. It’s good attitude for Ron to adapt in this late hour.
Laura: Yeah. Well, and also, I think Hermione raises a really good point that he might be doing better because Fred and George aren’t there, and Fred and George have historically given him a really hard time about this.
Micah: Yeah, there’s that lack of pressure that would otherwise be present, so I think that’s a really good point. But things play out the way they need to and Gryffindor is in a position to win the Quidditch Cup, and we don’t see any of the match, really, outside of some initial introductions and opening plays, because Hagrid shows up and wants to take Harry and Hermione on a secret mission.
Andrew: They can’t even watch a Quidditch game in peace. This is why Harry can’t sleep at night and clear his head.
Eric: [laughs] This was clever for Hagrid.
Micah: Was it?
Eric: Yeah, this was… now, I don’t support anything Hagrid is doing in this chapter, except I think it’s clever to pull them out during a game because the entire school is distracted and people don’t seem to notice them leaving.
Micah: But how is that possible?
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Because Hagrid is huge.
Micah: Because number one… yeah, Hagrid is huge. He also looks like he went 12 rounds in a MMA match, and he’s trying to get his way through the crowd – it’s noted just how big he is – and he’s pushing students out of the way to make his way over to Harry and Hermione in the first place. I know we have to suspend belief with all this, but it just seems odd to me that nobody notices that they disappear, and the fact that Umbridge wouldn’t have Harry and Hermione and Ron under watch all the time.
Andrew: All monitored, yeah. Well, she knows where Ron is, but yeah, Harry and Hermione, for sure, should be watched. And I think she would keep an extra eye on Harry because he may be mad that he can’t play, so he may rebel in some way.
Laura: Well, and if she’s thinking of sacking Hagrid, wouldn’t she be keeping an eye on him too?
Andrew: Right, waiting for an excuse to fire him.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: And just to illustrate this, earlier on in this book, I believe it was, it’s observed that Hagrid has feet the size of baby dolphins.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: And she says hands the size of trash can lids. I mean, I’ll be clear, the children that Hagrid flattens against the seats as he goes to get Harry and Hermione, they notice him. But for the most part, he does seem to be able… he gets them out. I mean, they’re gone for hours, and so yeah, he chose the right moment. There is some stroke of genius in Hagrid’s planning here because it ends up working out for him.
Micah: I just think it’s dumb luck, honestly. I don’t think there’s any strategy here. There’s a huge risk, right? They just happen to walk out of the forest at the time that the match is ending, and they’re in complete disarray; it’s mentioned just how they look. I don’t know how they’re able to blend in with the other students, because their robes are ripped, their hair is messed up, they get scratches all over their face, they’re bleeding… they look like Hagrid.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: So I’m actually surprised that this, at least for right now, goes off without a hitch.
Eric: Right.
Laura: Well, everybody’s just so shocked that Gryffindor won, they don’t even notice.
Micah: Wanted to talk a little bit about connecting the threads, and Laura, I’ll let you take it. But Hagrid enjoys keeping dangerous things in the forest; this is not the first time that he’s done this.
Laura: No. [laughs] And he also enjoys encountering dangerous things in the forest. Something that I thought was really interesting was looking at their interactions with centaurs in this chapter versus their interactions with centaurs towards the end of Philosopher’s/Sorcerer’s Stone. At that point in the first book, the centaurs don’t really seem to mind that Harry and Hagrid are in the forest; they ignore them more than anything else. They don’t directly answer any questions that Hagrid is asking; they’re more concerned with stargazing. Whereas in this chapter, their reaction is decidedly a bit violent, and they communicate to Hagrid, like, “Listen, you’re not welcome here anymore. We were killing Firenze, and you stopped us from killing him. He is a traitor.” And I found that whole mentality really interesting, because they were trying to kill Firenze because they saw him as going into servitude to humans. And I thought it’d be interesting to look into a little bit of background on centaurs to see where that mentality might come from. So I looked it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica, and according to that, centers were descended from this Greek character named Ixion, who was allowed into Olympus by Zeus, and Ixion tried to seduce Zeus’s wife, Hera. Zeus then created a cloud, fake version of Hera. I imagine this as the cartoon Hercules, by the way. That’s how I’m seeing it.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Mostly, yes. I would agree.
Micah: It’s funny, I just… well, you said Hercules; I saw The Rock apparently did a version of that movie not that long ago.
Laura: Oh, really? [laughs]
Micah: It was on TV the other day, yeah. Sorry, there’s nothing else to do in quarantine.
Andrew: Did you watch this after The View or before The View?
[Laura laughs]
Micah: I actually was switching back and forth, yeah.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Gotta get both in.
Laura: So Ixion and this fake cloud Hera ended up giving… he ended up fathering a child, Centaurus, who was deformed, and because of his deformity, he was banished to Mount Pelion, where he fathered the centaurs by the mares that lived there. And that to me was interesting, because you see the beginning of their legacy as a race being based on their banishment, and you see in the Potter books that the centaurs really do try to keep to themselves. So I don’t know if Rowling’s intention was to say that this Greek myth is the source for the centaurs in her books as well, but I think that she was carrying over the theme of centaurs choosing to live in exile and being very insular and not wanting anything to do with outside communities, because they don’t have a choice.
Eric: Interesting character building, because the centaurs as a tribe, you can’t really showcase how tribal they are or how much they keep to themselves unless you have somebody from their ranks fall out, like with Firenze. And it always just strikes me how brutal their punishment is for Firenze, that they were going to kill him, and how just imposing they are on Hagrid and his students here. It’s very serious, and I think it’s so interesting that this was one of the subplots that found its way into this book, because it does provide, I think, crucial insight into what they are as a race.
Laura: Right. And then from Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them on centaurs, Newt Scamander wrote, “Being intelligent and capable of speech, it should not strictly speaking be termed a beast, but by its own request it has been classified as such by the Ministry of Magic.” And during the forward of that book, it’s clarified that this is because they did not want the same classification as vampires and hags, which is what they would have had, had they been classified as a “being.” So they don’t want anything to do with magical governance; they don’t want anything to do with the Ministry. They just want to live their life in isolation in the forest. Well, at least the centaurs we see, but they’re not interested in having any kind of interaction with humans at all. Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them also clarifies that they kind of view wizards and Muggles as two sides of the same coin. They’re very suspicious of all of them, so they don’t feel a particular inclination towards one group over the other.
Micah: Yeah, they’re definitely territorial, and they feel protective of the forest as a whole, and certainly that Hagrid is invading their space. And a forest is a big place, but at the same time, I think he’s also bringing a lot of risk into that forest. And if you take the proud nature of the centaurs aside, you’d have to imagine that bringing a giant into the forest could be a very big threat to the centaurs. Who knows what Grawp may think? “Dinner time,” right? He could look at them as an afternoon snack, for all we know.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Right. It’s also worth asking, how does introducing this giant upset the ecosystem in the forest?
Laura: And it does.
Eric: Oh, horribly, horribly. It only takes Grawp a couple of seconds to rip up entire trees that have been growing there for 40 or 50 years, or 150 years.
Andrew: Probably longer, yeah.
Eric: So it’s absolutely just the most disruptive… and for somebody like the centaurs, who are only focused on events in the big picture and decades from now and that kind of thing, their pace is so slow compared to Grawp, this chaotic element who is really having to keep them on their feet, or on their hooves, as it were…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: … every second of every day, and I don’t resent or think it’s wrong for the centaurs to be a little bristly towards Hagrid for this. This is extremely disruptive.
Laura: Harry even notes it. When they’re walking into the forest, he notes the distinct lack of creatures. He’s like, “Usually we would have seen something by now, but there’s nothing.”
Micah: Right.
Andrew: Well, they were all the Quidditch match. That was why.
Eric: Sports!
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: They were watching…
Laura: All the creatures went to the Quidditch match. [laughs] But I also thought it was interesting, too, because in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, it notes that centaurs have a pretty high danger rating. They’re rated with X’s, and so centaurs get four X’s, and that means that they’re very dangerous to humans and that only highly skilled wizards should be interacting with them, which Hagrid…
Andrew: Is not.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: But there is a footnote that says centaurs are only rated dangerously because they need to be treated with respect, and the second that you don’t treat them with respect, they’re going to F you up, right?
Eric: Like hippogriffs.
Laura: Yes, exactly. So that, I thought, was so cool because here we are in Order of the Phoenix, and the last time we’ve interacted with an animal like this with Hagrid was in Prisoner of Azkaban with Buckbeak.
Micah: Yeah, it’s definitely interesting. And then you look ahead, and I know events have to play themselves out throughout the rest of Order of the Phoenix, but despite this conversation that happens between Hagrid and the centaurs, at the end of Half-Blood Prince you do see them pay tribute to Dumbledore, and in Deathly Hallows, you do see them join the battle. So I just find it… what changed? What kind of philosophical change happened? And I know reintroducing Firenze plays a role, but I just find the way that it plays itself out to be very interesting.
Andrew: They want to pay their respects to a great wizard, I think, who did care for them. And in terms of Book 7, they wanted to save the world, I guess. [laughs] I mean, Voldemort taking over would not have been good for them, either.
Eric: Right, right. If they can legally – or for a good cause – stomp other people to death, they’re going to do it.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Well, and they’ve shown that they’re very much more interested in the bigger picture. So from Book 1, they’re not really concerned about Hagrid’s trivial unicorn problem. They’re like, “Hey, Mars is bright tonight. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but that’s not a good thing.”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And so when you get to the idea of the second wizarding war, that is something that’s a bigger picture thing. And like Andrew was saying, it’s not good for anybody if Voldemort wins, so I think that’s why they get involved, ultimately.
Micah: And it’s also important to note that there are differences among the centaurs, just like there are amongst wizards, right? You have Firenze, obviously, who is friendly. On the other side, you have Magorian and you have Bane; you have others who are… I wouldn’t say they’re necessarily bad or evil, but they certainly strike a different tone with Hagrid than somebody like Firenze would. All right, let’s talk a little bit about Hagrid’s decision-making. This whole situation… Eric, if you want to defend him, please go ahead, but…
Eric: No, that’s the last thing I want to do. This is indefensible. [laughs]
Micah: He’s dragging two teenagers into the forest to make nice with a fully grown giant. This has danger written all over it. There’s just so many things here, but Hagrid just doesn’t get it.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: And I know this is his brother and he wants to take care of his brother and do the right thing, and there’s something to be said for that, but…
Andrew: [tearfully] Family man. Gotta look out.
Micah: Yeah, he’s a family man, and it just… I would say the introduction itself is fine, but putting the responsibility on Harry and Hermione and even Ron to take care of Grawp? To come visit him in the forest?
Andrew: It’s awful. It’s completely awful.
Micah: Like, dude, you do it. If you’re getting kicked out, you can hang out in the forest all you want.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Well, no, he can’t. He can’t because the centaurs would be pissed. But what he should do is kidnap Harry and Hermione and keep the kids with him and Grawp in the forest. That way the centaurs won’t kill Hagrid, because as we hear later in this chapter, they don’t want to kill the kids because they were innocent.
Micah: He should just get a couple of dummies that he could pass off for kids.
Andrew: [laughs] That look like children? Or babies! He can just cradle some babies. Grawp and Hagrid, parenting two newborns. Beautiful.
Laura: Well, I mean, Hagrid brought him all the way back from Eastern Europe. Why couldn’t he take him wherever the heck it is he’s going?
Andrew: That’s a good point too. He’s very hidden in the forest.
Eric: It’s hard to justify Hagrid’s logical thinking.
Micah: Also, how did he get him across the water? Geographically. If he’s coming from Eastern Europe…
Eric: Oh, did he get him to Scotland?
Andrew: On a boat.
Micah: I guess.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Oh, they took the Chunnel.
Micah: That’s what sunk that ship in Crimes of Grindelwald. They were too many giants stowed away on the lower deck.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: No, that is a very good question. They must have snuck on a boat, I guess.
Eric: But what is Hagrid thinking? He’s like, “Well, Grawp is now…” He basically rehoused Grawp in the forest. He just said, “This is a great place for you.” He did not obtain the consent of any other living creature in the forest. Now he’s putting Harry and Hermione’s lives at risk by having them even venture into the forest multiple times to keep him company. I mean, nobody can argue his heart’s not in the right place, but this is one instance where Hagrid’s brains should have told him not to ask this of them.
Micah: Totally.
Laura: I like that you brought up “He didn’t ask anybody in the forest if they were going to be cool with this,” but Grawp doesn’t want to be there either. He notes that when he was bringing him back, the reason it took so long was because Grawp kept trying to escape and go back to his original home, and he has to tie him up in the forest. He’s literally… it mentions there are vines or ropes or something tying him up and keeping him there. That’s not healthy. How does he feed himself? I know Hagrid says he feeds himself, but how?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, I was wondering that too! He just sits really still, and then once a deer walks by, grabs them?
Eric and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: And it’s also a security risk for the school. It’s not just the forest.
Andrew: Ugh, so true.
Micah: Let’s imagine he breaks free, right? We don’t know what direction he’s going to run in, but let’s assume he runs towards Hogwarts. What happens then? They have a giant issue on their hands.
[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]
Eric: There it is.
Andrew: I wanted to bring this up as well. I mean, Grawp aside, this forest is freaking dangerous. And the school is parked right next to it, and any kid… yeah, okay, you’re not allowed to go in, but of course, kids are going to be tempted to see what’s in there, and there’s these centaurs who want to kill humans. I just can’t imagine a school in the real world…
Micah: Well, they would never hurt the kids. They say that.
Andrew: They are willing to kill humans who cross them, and it’s…
Eric: Right.
Andrew: I would not be comfortable there if I was a kid.
Micah: I also think this particular scene is laying the groundwork for what happens later with Umbridge and her confrontation with the centaurs. Hagrid thinks too much with his heart and not with his head; this is another perfect example of that.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, it does tug at your heartstrings a little bit that Hagrid reveals to Hermione that all the other giants were bullying Grawp for being too small at 16 feet, [laughs] and that he would have died, maybe; they maybe would have actually killed Grawp, because that’s how giants roam. So Hagrid is kind of saving his life, but what’s the quality of life, given that he’s basically a slave? He’s a prisoner in the forest where he doesn’t want to be. Where does free will cross with Hagrid’s best interests for Grawp?
Micah: Just add him to the list, right? Go back to Sorcerer’s Stone. You have Norberta; you have Fluffy; you have Buckbeak. I’m sure I’m missing others along the way, but Grawp is just another example of somebody who is a huge risk to pretty much anybody outside of Hagrid. And Hagrid, in this case, is getting beat up pretty good.
Eric: Yeah, he’s just not in touch with reality at all, period. Even though he’s been teaching Grawp some English and some phrases, his introduction of Harry and Hermione to Grawp goes poorly. It’s still not… he’s unable to accomplish even the most basic level of communication. And Hagrid, every time we see him in this book, he’s been purple and bleeding. It just… to what Firenze said to Harry, Hagrid’s attempt is not working. He needs to understand and feel that. What is he thinking?
Micah: Yeah. I forgot Aragog too. Let’s not forgot Aragog.
Laura: The one that got him expelled.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Eric: Yeah, and the one that also would have killed Harry and Ron if it weren’t for a certain flying Ford Anglia.
Micah: Right. All right, well, I think we beat up Hagrid enough on top of…
Andrew: Time for the Hagrid Suck count.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Lots of times in this chapter.
Micah: He’s been beat up enough in this book, so we can leave him alone for a little bit.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But once Harry and Hermione make it back up to the school – alluded to this earlier – but they’re hearing very much of a different tune than what they were anticipating, and that is the Gryffindors singing “Weasley Is Our King,” and apparently Ron won the match. He’s good at Quidditch. Something happened. All that needed to happen was for Harry and Hermione to dip away for a couple of hours, and magical things happened to Ron on the Quidditch pitch.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: But he didn’t notice that.
Micah: Well, yeah, that’s the thing. I was going to say that too; clearly he didn’t notice they weren’t there.
Andrew: Yeah, he probably would have panicked and gotten distracted. But it’s said earlier in the chapter, maybe by Hermione, that Fred and George being off the Quidditch team might be a good thing for Ron, because the twins may intimidate him.
Eric and Laura: Right.
Laura: And this is such a great moment, because Ron is hoisted up on the shoulders of his classmates; he’s carrying the Quidditch Cup. And we’ll all remember in Book 1, when Ron looks in the Mirror of Erised, this is what he sees!
[Eric gasps]
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Laura: He sees himself as Head Boy and Quidditch captain. Of course, he’s not quite either of those things here, but close enough. And he sees himself holding the Quidditch Cup, standing out amongst all of his brothers as successful and accomplished, and Ron finally gets that moment.
Eric: Aw.
Andrew: Good for him. Justice for Ron.
Laura: It’s all downhill from here, though.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Well, and it’s perfectly… I don’t want to say it’s subversive. It’s cool that the Gryffindors are able to claim the “Weasley Is Our King” song as their own. Change a couple of words, from “Always lets the Quaffle in” to “Never lets the Quaffle in.” See, that writes itself. All of a sudden the Gryffindors have a rallying song, and the Slytherins are just poo-poo. They’re just gone.
Andrew: Okay, so let’s turn to the Umbridge Suck count. She didn’t have a big role in this chapter. We just have one here right now: wrongly accusing Hagrid of putting a Niffler in the office.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Eric: Yeah, I want to know who did it.
Andrew: Anything else, though?
Eric: Yeah, I can’t think of anything else.
Micah: No, I mean, she really gets her comeuppance in this chapter, so yeah, I can’t really think of her sucking too much.
Andrew: You could say not getting the school in order faster, because of the beginning of the chapter.
Micah: You could. I mean, yeah, just not having any semblance of control over the school.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Laura: I added, just for giggles, letting Filch punt students in the American edition.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: I agree. Okay.
Micah: And letting him live out his fantasy of having a horse whip.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Eric: Can we just make that one and say enabling Filch’s worst tendencies?
Andrew: I already played the laugh, though.
Eric: Oh, damn.
Andrew: It just automatically got added to the tally.
Laura: It counts.
Eric: All right.
Micah: And not acknowledging Umbridge-itis as an official sickness…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: … and giving out detentions for four straight classes.
Andrew: That’s a stretch.
Micah: Maybe. I don’t know.
Andrew: Umbridge-itis isn’t real.
Laura: We’ve got to get to 100 before the end of the book.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: We do.
Andrew: We will.
Eric: We’ll get there.
Micah: I’m sure we will, yeah.
Andrew: We’re now at 88. Only 12 to go; don’t worry.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Okay, and now it’s time for MVP of the Week.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: Now, mine is actually the Most Vicious Player of the Week, and that is Hagrid for taking these two kids into the Forbidden Forest. I don’t care if the centaurs are like, “Oh, we wouldn’t touch kids.” It’s still extremely dangerous. And to put them next to that giant? Vicious.
Micah: Vicious.
Eric: Yep. I’m going to give it to Ron for breaking his losing streak. Not only does he do that, he does it without anyone else’s help. It’s down to himself.
Andrew: That’s a true MVP.
Eric: Yeah!
Micah: I’m going to give it to Peeves for just making Umbridge’s life a living hell.
Andrew: Most Valuable Peeves.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: And I’m going to give it to Magorian for not hurting foals.
Rename the Chapter
Andrew: Okay, and now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Double Danger for Granger, Who Must Teach a Stranger.”
Eric: I renamed the chapter Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Niffler in the Office.”
Micah: All right. I went with…
Andrew: I didn’t like that one. I’ll just be honest.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Eric: Okay, all right.
Laura: Geez, Andrew.
Eric: I’m going to work hard to impress you the next time.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Micah: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.” Or “Hide Them.” I played around with both of those, but “Hide” is probably a better one.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Sorry, You Want Us to Do What?”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in; use the feedback form on MuggleCast.com or email MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also use that email address to send us a voice memo; we love hearing from you as well. And like Micah said at the beginning of the episode, we are striving to reply to every email we receive, and we do read every single email as well, so thank you to everybody who takes the time to write in. It’s great because it’s lovely to hear from everybody, because when we’re podcasting, we’re talking to nobody. We’re talking to each other, but there’s no audience. So to hear from you really means a lot.
Micah: Well, there’s our patrons.
Andrew: Yes, that’s true. That’s true. They are listening live.
Micah: But I get what you’re saying. And here’s the thing, I mean, we try our best also, when we include these emails, to include everything. But I think – as you know, Andrew – people like to write a lot, and once they start theorizing and thinking about things, there are some lengthy emails that come in, and we want to make sure we acknowledge those, but sometimes the easiest way to do that is just by responding to the email, as opposed to including it in the show.
Andrew: So thanks, everybody, who writes in. We do love hearing from you. And Micah mentioned our patrons; patrons do have access to each episode as we are recording it, so thanks, everybody who’s joining us on this Saturday morning. If you become a patron and pledge at the $5 level or higher, you will receive a MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt. Our 15th birthday is this August, and we’re celebrating with our first shirt in about four years, so pledge by June 30 to be eligible to receive yours. And of course, you’ll get instant access to lots of other benefits too – years of content – and we’re about to record another installment of bonus MuggleCast. In celebration of all eight movies being on HBO Max, I wanted to discuss what is our go-to Harry Potter movie? I don’t necessarily mean our favorite movie, but if we have all eight at our fingertips just a tap away – we don’t have to get up and pull a DVD out of the closet, ugh – which movie will we lean towards?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: So we’ll discuss that. And we also asked our patrons to share which movie is their go-to and why, so we’ll have a lighthearted fun discussion about which movie we’ll just pull up.
Quizzitch
Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Last week’s question: Who is the first person to score a goal against Ron this chapter? It’s the only goal that Harry and Hermione see. The correct answer is, of course, Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw captain. Correct answers were submitted by Sup Sarah, Samwise Potter, Skywalker, Reese Without Her Spoon, Bort Voldemort, Sydney, Count Ravioli, Joan Glomsicker, Caleb McReynolds, Rachel, Katie Moore, and Jason King. And for next week’s question: Who is the Head of the Wizarding Examinations Authority?
Andrew: Hmm. Okay.
Eric: It’s OWLs time, baby.
Andrew: [laughs] All right. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We would also appreciate if you followed us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We will post a picture of my lovely new canvas print of that infamous J.K. Rowling tweet this week.
Micah: And your goat.
Andrew: Well, we should post your goat.
Eric: We should all take our goats to the park.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: On, like, a leash?
Andrew: Walk our stuffed goats?
Eric: Yeah, and take pictures of our goats out in the wild.
Micah: I was going to say, you might as well film the reactions of people around you.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: “Put a mask on that goat!”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: No, definitely their reactions to grown adults dragging around a stuffed goat wouldn’t be more capture-worthy.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: I see some weird stuff around here. People walk with their parrots and other animals that really don’t need to be walked.
Micah: That sounds like New Orleans. I remember I used to see people on the street with snakes around their necks and all kinds of crazy stuff.
Andrew: [laughs] All right, thank you, everybody, for listening. We really appreciate your support. Hope everybody is doing well. We’ll see you next week. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everybody.
Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.