Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #470, Silky Smooth Snape (OOTP 32, Out of the Fire)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: On this week’s episode, we will return to Chapter by Chapter. I don’t know about you guys, but after last week’s episode, I’m very much looking forward to just talking about Harry Potter again.
Laura: So ready.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I don’t even remember what happened in the chapter. I’m really looking forward to this discussion, seeing how I lead it and where it goes. Who knows?
Andrew: You planned for it two weeks ago, right?
Micah: Exactly.
Andrew: Well, the book is called Order of the Phoenix, and the chapter is “Out of the Fire.” We’re actually going to have a debate during the discussion as well, so that’ll be fun, and we have some emails.
News
Andrew: But before we get to all that, just want to note that WizardingWorld.com has released their latest chapter reading, Chapter 11, and this one stars a pair of Davids, David Tennant and David Beckham, reading the chapter “Quidditch.”
Eric: Yeah, I was a little skeptical when they first announced that David Beckham was going to do a chapter reading. I’m like, “David Beckham? What does he have to do with Harry Potter?” But they made him read the Quidditch chapter! Yeah, I’m so excited about that. This international sports star is going to read about Quidditch.
Andrew: Yeah, that was very clever. And of course, David Tennant is a huge star in the UK, and he was in Goblet of Fire as Barty Crouch, Jr., so that’s a nice throwback.
Eric: Yeah, and his voices are hilarious.
Andrew: Are they? I haven’t been viewing these, I have to admit.
Micah: Why?
Andrew: “Why?”
Micah: Andrew, come on. I gave a great recommendation two weeks ago; I think it was for Dan Fogler in his chapter reading with Allison Sudol.
Andrew: Yeah. Okay, well, maybe I’ll consider it.
Micah: Did you not listen to it?
Andrew: No. I mean…
Micah: This is highly disappointing, Andrew. You’ve had two weeks, also.
Andrew: [laughs] I watched the Dan Radcliffe one, and I think that was it for me. It’s cool; it’s just not exactly for me. I did notice – and I don’t know how long this has been a thing, so maybe our listeners can tell us – but I did notice that you actually have to be logged in to WizardingWorld.com to view these chapter readings, and that surprised me because these are free videos, so I’m not sure why you need to log in. That’d be like YouTube making you log in to watch anything there.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: So I thought that was a little strange.
Micah: Yeah. And the only other thing that is strange about all this is that they haven’t released a new chapter since David Tennant and David Beckham, which was just prior to when things got a little out of control with a certain author’s tweets.
Andrew: Got a little hairy. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, and they were releasing two chapters.
Andrew: Per week.
Micah: Two chapters per week, yeah, so I wonder if they’re going to take a little bit of a break and let the bleep storm kind of subside before they release any more chapters.
Andrew: Maybe. Their social media channels were quiet, too, but those have resumed activity as well, the Wizarding World ones. So that’s the only news item this week, but there is a news item concerning MuggleCast: There’s just one week left to become a patron and receive your MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt. Visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and pledge at the Dumbledore’s Army level or above before June 30 to be eligible to receive your shirt this summer. You’ll also receive instant access to loads of other benefits, including hours’ more podcasting in the form of bonus MuggleCasts, access to our weekly livestreams, early access to the show, behind-the-scenes looks, and a whole lot more. Your support helps this show thrive, and right now is the best time to pledge, thanks to this limited time benefit. So again, visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge today. We normally do our International Wear Your MuggleCast T-Shirt Day in June, but with new T-shirts coming out this summer, we’re going to punt that to the end of summer, I think, once all of our patrons get their shirts.
Micah: I see what you did there.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: You used the word.
Andrew: “Punt” in the American form.
Micah: But look, this is a whole new world we’re living in now, so MuggleCast Wear Your T-Shirt Day… it can be in July, August…
Andrew: It’s any day you want it to be.
Micah: There you go. But not really; we’re going to set a specific date.
Andrew: [laughs] Right, and then we want everybody to take pics and send them in, and we’ll share them on social media. It’ll be a fun day.
Listener Feedback
Andrew: Okay, time for Muggle Mail.
Micah: The first email comes from Charlotte, who says,
“I am currently listening to Episode 468, and you guys are talking about Hogwarts examinations. Hogwarts actually mirrors the English education system. OWLs are pretty much the same as GCSEs – those two weeks are all too real. I just counted the amount of exams I will take in a couple of years (roughly) – 19 written exams and 2 practical (both are speaking exams) – pray for me! NEWTs are the equivalent to A-levels. The format of tests are also very similar because in some subjects, practical examination accounts for a percentage of your grade. In subjects such as English, Languages, Humanities, Sociology, and sometimes Science, essay type questions are included. I don’t know about other schools in the UK, but in my school during our end of year exams, any watches, phones, water bottles with a label, etc. are banned, and this is enforced. Also, side note – YOU GUYS GET MULTIPLE CHOICE!”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I guess she’s saying they don’t get multiple choice?
“I love your podcast; keep up the good work. Love from London, Charlotte.”
Andrew: Americans can have it very easy sometimes. But that’s funny; you can’t even have a label on your water bottle.
Laura: Give me an essay any day.
Andrew: You’re an essay girl, Laura?
Laura: Oh, yeah. Far prefer that.
Micah: What’s the label issue? They think you’re going to write the answers on it?
Andrew: Under nutritional facts? [laughs] Speaking of exams, this next one comes from Amani:
“Just reaching out re: the conversation about exams in Episode 468. I was in the British school system and wanted to share my perspective. We had the equivalent of OWLS, called GCSEs, that were standardized tests which tested your knowledge for the past two school years (ages 15-16). For me, 0-20% of my grade was coursework, and the rest was based on one to three tests per subject. That meant you had 15-25 tests over the course of about a month, and pretty much your entire grade for the two years depended on those. You also had to get certain grades to be allowed to continue a subject in the next year. Hopefully this sheds some light on the context for the OWLs. I find it super interesting how school systems vary across the world (I went to university in Canada, so it’s more like the American system).”
Eric: It does blow my mind how different everything is. Okay, the next one comes from Emma:
“I was thinking about the decision to keep Harry in the dark about the prophecy, and I simply can’t justify it at all. Harry is sooo nosy, withholding information from him only exacerbates his nosiness. I totally agree with Andrew and Eric that if they had just explained to Harry about the prophecy, and that Voldemort might try and lure him to the Department of Mysteries, Harry would never have been tricked. I believe Dumbledore even admits this later on in the book because he holds himself culpable for Sirius’s death. It also might have given Harry more of an incentive to practice Occlumency if he actually knew why he needed to learn it. Harry’s burning curiosity to find out what was at the end of the hallway in his dreams was a deterrent to practicing for Occlumency.”
Andrew: It’s a good point.
Laura: Yeah, but then we wouldn’t have a fifth Harry Potter book.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I’d be okay with that if Sirius gets to live, I’m telling you. This information mentioned by Emma, I happen to completely agree with, and I think it comes up in this chapter.
Laura: The next email comes from Mark. Mark says,
“Hey, MuggleCast! Big fan of the show since 2006. And Andrew, I’m your neighbor in RP, so let’s party when social distancing isn’t an issue anymore, okay? Cool.”
Andrew: All right, hold on. Stop right there. How do you know where I live?
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: How do you know what neighborhood I live in? Have you seen me walking around? [laughs]
Eric and Laura: What is RP?
Andrew: It’s the name of my neighborhood.
Laura: Oh.
“I just listened to Episode 468 and a new theory came to mind when you were discussing the Ministry coming to take Hagrid away and how their spells seemed to ‘bounce’ off him. I’d always just thought that it was because he was half-giant and made of tough stuff, but then I wondered, I don’t think we know where Dumbledore is in the world at this point or what exactly he is doing. My theory is that Dumbledore stayed in or near the school, but kept himself unseen. He has his own ways of making himself invisible, as he says himself. Could it be that during this scene, Dumbledore is somewhere off to the sides unseen and deflecting the spells off Hagrid? Dumbledore would have known that Hagrid would be a target for Umbridge and the Ministry sooner than later, and Dumbledore would also know that Hagrid couldn’t use magic to defend himself against the Ministry. Anyway, that’s what I chose to believe. Dumbledore stayed at Hogwarts, kept himself invisible, and protected the people he knew would be targets. This also would echo what Harry does in Deathly Hallows before facing Voldemort when he was under his Invisibility Cloak and blocked the spells of the Death Eaters. Love the show and bless you all.”
Laura: I like this. I like this headcanon.
Eric: I like how Dumbledore protects Hagrid against spells but lets McGonagall get hit by four of them.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: He was having a snack.
Eric: How he really feels about Minerva.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Going along with this headcanon, maybe he thought Minerva could handle it herself. Hagrid needs help; we know that.
Micah: Yeah, he’s not licensed officially, right, to be able to do magic?
Eric: That’s right.
Micah: And he’s being taken unaware. At least McGonagall is going into the situation with awareness about what may happen.
Andrew: All right, well, before we dive into Chapter by Chapter and discuss “Out of the Fire,” I want to spend a minute going into your mouth.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Not in that way, though.
[Ad break]
Andrew: I’m glad you guys liked my transition at the start. I thought it may have been too creepy.
Micah: Oh, it was fantastic.
Andrew: Okay. All right, now let’s go…
Micah: I like how you also implied that Eric and I don’t have clean mouths.
Andrew: Well, you don’t, because you don’t use Quip.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Got it. Okay.
Andrew: And I’ve been near you guys.
Micah: I mean, if you want to send us one, then we can join the party. I’m just saying.
Andrew: We can arrange that. I’ve been near you guys, and I hope you guys continue wearing those face coverings. That’s all I have to say.
Micah: Wow.
Laura: Oof. Shots fired.
Andrew: [laughs] I’m kidding, of course. I’m kidding.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: I will say, I got my refill the other day for my Quip brush, and it’s so convenient.
Andrew: Nice. Yeah, it is. It’s just one less thing to worry about. They just take care of it for you, and they’re cheap.
Micah: It’s important now, too, with everything going on. You can’t get to your dentist for your annual cleaning because of Coronavirus.
Andrew: Yeah, I have one coming up in a couple weeks, and I think I’m going to postpone it. I’m just not comfortable with that yet.
Micah: You see that selling point, Andrew? Send me a Quip.
[Everyone laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we will discuss Chapter 32, “Out of the Fire,” from Order of the Phoenix. And we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary.
Micah: Umbridge…
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Andrew: … catches…
Eric: … heroes…
Andrew: Aw.
Laura: … using…
Micah: … losers…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: … for…?
[Eric sighs]
Andrew: [whispers] Hire.
Eric: Oh, hire. Okay, hire.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: That wasn’t coerced at all.
Micah: Oh my gosh.
Andrew: That one’s going to get a bad review.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: We were a little rusty.
Laura: I think it’s acceptable.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: So Harry had another one of his episodes towards the end of the last chapter, when he’s taking his… I think it’s History of Magic OWL. And he’s being taken to the infirmary by Professor Tofty, and he plays it off pretty well, and I’m actually surprised at Tofty’s reaction and just thinking that Harry is good to go. But he goes in, and he’s really in search of Professor McGonagall – he cares very little for his own wellbeing – and I actually think for once, Harry’s first instinct is a good one. He wants to find somebody who he can relay what he’s just seen to, and I don’t think he’s ever done this before. This is new for him. This is new territory.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: [laughs] He’s not keeping it to himself. Well, things are different now because his uncle’s life might be in danger.
Micah: True, but we’ve talked a lot in the last few episodes about how just the support that Harry has at Hogwarts continues to diminish. And now we find out at the start of this chapter yet another person in Professor McGonagall – we know she was attacked in the last chapter – she’s nowhere to be found either. So Harry’s resources continue to dwindle, and we know she’s at St. Mungo’s, and Harry is a bit deflated here.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think it is a good instinct for him. I kept going over, when I was starting to read the chapter, just how terrifying it must have been for everyone else taking their test to have Harry just all of a sudden start screaming. [laughs] But that’s neither here nor there. Yeah, McGonagall being gone… and of course, Harry doesn’t realize till later in the chapter there is one more Order member present. He just… who does he turn to? Who can he turn to besides his peers? Hagrid gone, McGonagall gone… you kind of wonder whether or not this wasn’t Umbridge’s plan all along.
Micah: To isolate Harry? Well, she’s trying to expel him, though, many times.
Laura: Yep. I think the isolation is a tactic, because if Harry does not have any likeminded individuals in positions of power to turn to, then it’s far easier for Umbridge to expel him.
Micah: Harry really starts to go into what I’ll call freak out mode now…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … once he learns that McGonagall is off at St. Mungo’s and unreachable, and he runs into Hermione and Ron. And Hermione really does try and rationalize the situation for Harry, but Harry really doesn’t want anything to do with it. And I thought one of the best arguments that she presented, which should have been a major red flag – if not to Harry, definitely to us as readers – we’re talking about two of the most wanted wizards of present day, Sirius Black and Voldemort, right? And she says, “There is no way that the two most wanted wizards in the entire world snuck into the Ministry of Magic in the middle of the afternoon with nobody noticing.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Excellent point, I think. Rational point.
Eric: Hermione is really, really smart, and to be fair, if we want to say that Hermione’s long argument with Harry doesn’t have any gains, it does have a gain in that he agrees to at least try to verify Sirius’s whereabouts firsthand. He was really ready not to do that.
Andrew: I think as a reader, though… yes, Hermione is being sensible here, but J.K. Rowling could have just introduced some new magic that Voldemort could have used to get into the Department of Mysteries in the middle of the day, break into the Ministry of Magic. We don’t know that yet, so I think as a reader, you have reason to be skeptical of what Hermione is saying.
Eric: I agree. You don’t necessarily know what Voldemort can and can’t do, because it’s Voldemort, right? Presumably, Voldemort has been visiting the department door all year, so how does he get in? We know he has friends in the Ministry, so it really doesn’t seem like that much of a stretch.
Laura: Yeah, I was thinking back as I was rereading this about the first time I read this book, and I do have a distinct memory of reading this exact section and very much being on the same page with Hermione.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And it just set the rest of the book up to be this slow descent into something horrible that I knew was coming, and I just was like, “Oh my God, something terrible is going to happen because of all of this, because of Harry being so hard-headed and not able to stop and think for two seconds about logical outcomes.” So it definitely made this reading experience a little bit stressful, I remember, because I was like, “Oh my God, this is going to end very, very badly.”
Andrew: Yeah, but we should put ourselves into Harry’s shoes. He’s watching one of his best friends be kidnapped by Voldemort; he has reason to panic and not think clearly on this. So actually, I really don’t blame him for refusing to listen to Hermione.
Micah: Yeah. Well, and he’s also relying on past experience, right? He even mentions “Remember when I was inside of the snake and I was attacking Arthur? That was real, so why wouldn’t this be real?”
Andrew: Right, yeah.
Eric: Yeah, that was a clever plot point for him to touch back on and say.
Andrew: It’s an excellent point and impossible to argue with.
Laura: Yeah, at the same time, though, he also notices that his scar burned way worse when Voldemort was torturing Avery, and right now it’s just twinging, so Harry should also pay attention to that too.
Eric: What is it they say? “Seeing is believing”? Harry has seen it, and it’s distracting him. It’s clouding his judgment. And Hermione’s fatal flaw is bringing up the saving people thing; that’s the one point where I think she really goes wrong. She leads with a lot of cool-headed logic, but then brings up the saving people thing. And Harry is just so taken aback by this, what he sees as a character assassination, that he just kind of reacts… he’s less likely to follow her once she brings this up, and is it fair that she tells him he has a saving people thing? She brings up the Delacour girl. She says that he got a bit “carried away.”
Andrew: It seems like an inappropriate time to bring it up, yeah.
Eric: Okay.
Andrew: I mean, but he does want to be the hero. He always does want to be the hero; Hermione is right about that. I don’t think it’s something to fault him for, though.
Laura: No, and I don’t see how it helps her case in this moment.
Andrew: [laughs] Right. Well, yeah. Well, her point just is “You’re always rushing in to save people. Why don’t we just take a breather and think this through a little bit?”
Eric: But when she tells Harry that Voldemort knows him, that the fact that he took Ginny into the Chamber because he knew he’d follow is exactly the same plot he would follow to get Harry to the Department of Mysteries, we know she’s spot on. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t done it, though. The fact that Voldemort knows that Harry would try and rescue his godfather, it doesn’t have to be a trap. I think that Voldemort would look forward to seeing Harry again, but that doesn’t need to be the reason why he did it. Maybe Sirius was wandering out of Grimmauld Place; we know he’s not happy there, and so at least there’s a couple of other plots, like what’s going on with Sirius all year, that lead Harry to believe that it’s possible. If Sirius weren’t so reckless of a character in Harry’s eyes at this point, then it wouldn’t be plausible at all. It’d be like, “That’s weird. Why is Sirius even gone?”
Andrew: Harry should also remember that Hermione’s got a always-being-right thing, so he should be taking that into consideration when listening to Hermione.
Eric: [laughs] As for Sirius, when Harry finally agrees to try and make contact, that’s great, but he visits the Gryffindor common room and even grabs some items out of his trunk – not to skip ahead – but what he doesn’t grab is, of course, the package that Sirius gave to him at Christmas containing the mirror, and Sirius is probably going to have that mirror on him at all times, even since Christmas. And it’s very painful as a reader, if you’re cognizant of it, that she even places Harry in his common room, grabbing stuff from his trunk like the Invisibility Cloak, and he doesn’t grab the mirror, because that could have solved all of this.
Laura: Yep. And I also just think about poor Sirius carrying this mirror around for six months and being like, “He never calls.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: Well, we mentioned this before: He should have brought up, again, the mirror when he saw him in the fire the last time that Harry snuck into Umbridge’s… like, “Hey, by the way, open your gift.” It’s just a real shame because we know… watching the events of this chapter unfold, everything’s so tense, everything’s just high tension, and you know that it could have been prevented, and that’s what hurts so much.
Micah: I wanted to go back to the saving people comment, because I think that if Hermione had positioned it a little bit differently, it could have had different results. And just rationalizing with Harry, even though he is a bit irrational at this point, and saying, “Voldemort knows about your connection to him, and he may be trying to manipulate it to his advantage,” to me, that may have had a little bit more of a connection for Harry than saying that he has a saving people thing. Because I pulled this quote from one of the earlier Order of the Phoenix chapters; it’s Chapter 24, “Occlumency,” and it’s when Harry is talking with Snape, and he says, “‘And he might try and make me do things?’ asked Harry.” Yeah, bro, you said it yourself eight chapters ago.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: So in this moment, why does nobody think to contact Snape? Speaking of Occlumency.
Eric: You would think that Hermione would bring it up.
Andrew: I think they’re so used to hating Snape and not wanting to be near him or ask him for help, that it’s just not something that would cross their minds.
Laura: Right, I was going to say I think it’s a lot of implicit bias. They don’t really think of Snape as being a good guy. Even if you take the rational approach, say he’s on the right side of this, they still don’t like him. So even imagining they did go to Snape, I have a hard time imagining Harry would have believed Snape if Snape had been like, “No, I checked. He’s fine.”
Eric: I honestly see this playing out a little differently if Harry did go to Snape in this moment before the whole Umbridge thing and Snape has to play a part. If he and the trio were with Snape alone in Snape’s office, say, I really foresee Snape being a lot freer to act, and I think he would have… grudgingly, maybe, with a joke or two cast in their way, but I think he would have helped.
Micah: And he does help.
Andrew: Yeah, I think so.
Micah: It’s just not known to the reader at this point.
Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Micah: What about other sources of assistance here, right? We talked about Snape. What about…? I thought about what if the Weasley twins were at school at this time? Would that have changed the outcome at all? What about reaching out, speaking of the Weasleys, to Molly or to Arthur?
Andrew: Molly and Arthur weren’t at the school, and Harry is trying to run through people who he can immediately get in touch with, because remember, Umbridge is monitoring all communications coming in and out of Hogwarts. So to get in touch with Molly or Arthur, I guess he could have spoken coded language, but it may not have been fast enough. And also, kids just hate asking their parents for help.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And I think Harry also can predict what they would tell him, right? And he doesn’t want to hear what he knows they’re going to tell him, which is “Stay put.”
Andrew: “Stay put. We can’t tell you anything.”
Eric: Or they’d say, “Wait for Dumbledore.”
Andrew: [laughs] “Wait for the person who’s been missing.”
Eric: Yeah, the person who’s been missing, but also has been ignoring Harry all year. And that’s the same as Snape; Snape lately has been ignoring Harry and not continuing the lessons, so if Snape had not stormed off and not done the Occlumency… I’m not saying Harry would be any better at Occlumency – that wouldn’t happen – but I’m saying that Snape would have popped in his mind as a potential person if he hadn’t actively been ignoring Harry lately.
Laura: Yeah, so this is kind of a bummer connecting the threads moment, but rescuing Sirius in Prisoner of Azkaban saved his life, whereas Harry’s attempt to rescue Sirius in Order of the Phoenix leads to his death.
Andrew: Oh, that is a bummer.
Micah: It shows you you don’t mess with time.
Laura: Womp-womp.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: The universe corrects itself.
Laura: Oooh, that hurts. The Grim Reaper was like, “You got him this time, but I’ll be back.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: “On my inverse novel, yes.”
Micah: And it leads to another really reckless series of decision-making, the first of which is, “Let’s go break into Umbridge’s office again…”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: “… so that we can contact Grimmauld Place and see if Sirius is, in fact, there.” And he gets help, not just from Ron and Hermione, but also from Luna and from Ginny. And to me, this is really just one of the silliest plans that are put together. There’s not a whole lot of thought put in place, especially given that Umbridge, with everything that’s been going on, wouldn’t have any kind of security measures placed on her office.
Eric: Well, that’s a real shame, because Lee Jordan gets blamed. [laughs] All the Nifflers he’s been putting in her office have really raised her alarm. Umbridge would otherwise, I think, seem to be unaware, or maybe just ignorant, to the fact that people would target her specifically in her office, because Harry was able to get in fine the first time that he had to go through the fire with just a simple distraction. So although he’s got very little time to enact any kind of plan, he’s not taking into account that the situation really has drastically changed.
Micah: Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about Kreacher, and Harry actually getting in touch with Grimmauld Place. He’s able to get inside Umbridge’s office. I’m curious, why trust anything that Kreacher has to say? We know he doesn’t have to be loyal or truthful with Harry in any way. And in fact, he only offers up the Department of Mysteries as an option for where Sirius went to once Harry says those words.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: So to me, that should have been another red flag. Before that he’s just kind of playing coy with Harry a little bit, making him uncomfortable.
Laura: Yeah, Kreacher, in this moment, comes across a bit like a comic book villain to me.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: “Mua-ha-ha-ha!”
Laura: He’s like, “Master will never come back from the Department of Mysteries! Ah-ha-ha!”
[Echoey evil laugh sound effect plays]
Andrew: Yeah, he’s a villain. And again, Harry is desperate for answers, so he’s not thinking things through. So when Kreacher confirms Harry’s suspicion – allegedly – that’s all the proof he needed.
Eric: I just find it being true to life that there’s all these little things going on in the background that Harry is aware are happening, but never really has the time or energy to enforce or do anything about. This is the first time he sees Kreacher – or any of us have seen Kreacher – in a real long time, and that did in the past worry Harry, that Kreacher was taking these extreme absences. But now is not the time to be asking Kreacher about where he’s been all this time, so it doesn’t happen. But Harry is aware on some sub-level that something is going on with Kreacher, and yet, because Harry is so reliant on the information he receives, he doesn’t question it.
Andrew: He’s going with Hermione’s plan, Kreacher confirmed what he suspected, so that’s all he needs. “Okay, Hermione, it’s true. Now we gotta go.”
Eric: [laughs] And here’s a cool sort of tidbit: When Kreacher says “thinks he will have a little chat with his Mistress now, yes,” we think, or Harry thinks, that he’s talking about Mrs. Black, but I think that he was supposed to tell Bellatrix – his mistress is in fact Bellatrix, Sirius’s cousin – that this interaction has occurred, and that Harry has bought or taken the bait.
Andrew: Oh, that’s interesting.
Laura: Yeah, I think this is smart.
Eric: So it’s real clever that he refers to his mistress, which he always talks about. But remember, because when Sirius banished Kreacher by saying “Out,” the rules of house-elves is later said, I think probably by Dumbledore, that he took that to mean that other members of the extended Black family were his master now. Devastating consequences.
Micah: Well, before Harry can do any more detective work, his head is yanked out of the fire, he ingests a ton of Floo Powder, and it’s said that his neck is pulled back, almost as if to slit his throat. And hello, Umbridge, how are you? Welcome to the party.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: And this just leads to a series of events and a lot of conversation being had between Umbridge and Harry, but also other folks that are in the room, like Ron and Hermione and Luna and Ginny and Neville and members of the Inquisitorial Squad. But I thought probably the most damning piece of information is that we finally get confirmation on who sent the Dementors after Harry all the way back in the first chapter of this book.
Eric: Man.
Micah: And it’s Umbridge, and it seems like she acted of her own accord.
Andrew: Yeah, no, she says that. She says because nobody was doing anything, so she had to take matters into her own hands.
Eric: Umbridge offers a lot of insight into the bureaucratic part of the wizarding world, because when Harry comes out from the graveyard saying Voldemort is back, that’s not a politically convenient truth, and so there were people at the Ministry going, “We have to discredit him. We have to figure out how we can do this.” And then Umbridge was the one who kind of decided, “I can break the law, but it will achieve all of our goals.” Umbridge is willing to see outside of the confines of the law to bring what she sees as her twisted sense of justice to her career.
Laura: Yep. And I love how Dumbledore calls the Ministry on this during Harry’s trial. So at first when they’re saying that the Ministry still has complete control over the Dementors, Dumbledore is like, “Fine, then my question would be who within the Ministry made this order?”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Do you think he knew?
Eric: Do you guys think it’s like a sign-up list, you just put your name down like, “Need to reserve two Dementors for this address at 7:30”?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: And then they contact the head supervisor over at the Dementors, the line manager?
Micah: Well, I doubt that, because they’re supposed to be at Azkaban; they’re not supposed to be anywhere outside of that.
Eric: Well, I don’t think every Dementor ever is at Azkaban, right? There can be Dementors guarding other places.
Andrew: There could be.
Laura: I don’t know. I don’t think we ever get confirmation of that one way or the other.
Eric: Because when the Ministry orders Dementors to Little Whinging, do you think that those Dementors just came from Azkaban?
Laura: I assume so.
Eric: I always assumed.
Micah: That’s a good question.
Eric: Yeah, I don’t know.
Micah: But I think at least in the movie, I remember the Dumbledore line about how… or maybe it wasn’t Dumbledore; it was somebody else during the trial was talking about how those Dementors could have been so far from Azkaban.
Eric: Oh, yeah, that’s a good point.
Micah: But it seems like we’ve answered some of these questions, at least as it relates to Umbridge. But I’m actually curious, what is her ultimate goal here? Is it just to please Fudge? Is it to achieve absolute power? This may tie into our debate a little bit later on about the villains of the Harry Potter series and who’s worse, but I just wonder what is it ultimately Umbridge is looking to achieve here by setting the Dementors on Harry initially? Is it just to restore order? I know she loves order.
Andrew: Yeah. I think it’s to prove Harry wrong.
Laura: I mean, we’ve seen that she’s power hungry. We know based on the background that we’ve covered about her a few episodes ago on bonus MuggleCast that she comes from a family that she’s ashamed of, so she has spent her entire political career trying to climb the ladder, and she sees discrediting Harry as probably the biggest accomplishment she could achieve at this point in time. So that’s why she’s after this. Her own ambition is more important to her than the overall good of the wizarding world.
Eric: I think at this point, it’s personal too. She has been foiled. Her plans have been foiled, either by Dumbledore or by these mangy students multiple times throughout the year, that when she lifts her wand to cast the curse on Harry, she is prepared to do what it takes to beat him, to really emerge on top. Everything she did at the beginning of the year for the good of the Ministry has now become for the good of Umbridge so that she can assert her dominion, that she can assert her power over him.
Micah: Yeah, absolutely. And she tries other means prior to using an Unforgivable Curse. She even calls in Snape, and she asks for more Veritaserum.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: And I was curious as to whether or not it’s legal for him to be using, or I should say her to be using a potion like this on students who are underage. And we actually got an email from Veronica about this whole scene, but she calls out the fact that just because Snape says that he gave Umbridge Veritaserum, do we really believe that? Is it actual truth serum, or could Snape have just been playing Umbridge in this moment and prior to when he said he gave her in precious moments?
Laura: I think he was playing her.
Andrew: Oh, really?
Eric: So you think there was never any Veritaserum?
Laura: I think it’s entirely likely that he would be like, “Yeah, sure. Definitely use some Veritaserum to question Harry.” I mean, he wasn’t going to give her actual Veritaserum, I don’t think, because allowing her to use that on Harry completely foils the Order of the Phoenix.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: Well, what if she got it from Snape and then she tested it on somebody else and then it didn’t work? Then that would ruin her trust with Snape.
Laura: I mean, does she…? I don’t think that she’s skilled enough to know the difference, because we see Harry pretend to drink the tea she gives him, and she’s not suspicious in that moment that he’s lying to her.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Eric: It just blows my mind that he says he gave her the whole bottle, the whole vial, and told her that three drops would be more than enough to give to Harry, and so when she asks him for more Veritaserum, he’s like, “Wait a minute, you used the whole bottle?”
Andrew: “I’m out.” [laughs] Yeah.
Eric: “I’m out. You used the whole bottle?” He makes it about Umbridge, because she used, apparently, a whole bottle of Veritaserum. Probably would have killed Harry, by the way; you can overdose on that kind of stuff, I’m sure.
Andrew: [laughs] That’s canon.
Eric: Honestly.
Andrew: There’s surely some dangers with an overdose of Veritaserum or any of these other potions that are so dangerous, and yeah, it probably is illegal for Umbridge to be giving this to a student. You’ve got to have grounds to do it, I would think. If it’s not illegal, it would certainly be heavily frowned upon, because this is just taking things to an extreme.
Eric: When the headmistress does it, it’s not illegal.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: Well, in her mind, nothing she does is illegal.
Eric: Well, she could get approval, right? She could get approval from Fudge or whoever, saying, “Cornelius, Corny for short, this needed to be done. Will you sign off on this?” I don’t know that he’d be so horrified by her actions that he would fire her, even if it did come out that she sent the Dementors. I mean, if you look at it, she still has a job in Book 7.
Andrew: True. That’s true.
Micah: She’s able to somehow still stay at the Ministry and be influential in many ways.
Andrew: I love Snape in this scene, though. He’s so smooth. [laughs]
Laura: I know.
Eric: So good. I do have a lot of confidence… I know it’s technically laid or described as being a little vague, where the reader can’t be sure if Snape is going to help, but I think I remember reading this for the first time, being convinced that this was very clever for Snape, especially when he says to Umbridge that he doesn’t know what Harry is talking about, and chastises Harry for talking nonsense to him. I was like, “Snape knows exactly what’s going on right now.”
Micah: It is worth mentioning in the movie, though, that it’s implied that Snape does provide Veritaserum because he says that “You used the last of my stores up on Cho Chang,” because remember, they make Cho the fall person, as opposed to Marietta in the movies.
Andrew: Right, right.
Micah: Makes sense, but it is implied, at least, that Snape was providing actual Veritaserum to Umbridge. But I think in the books, it’s safe to assume that he probably wasn’t, and I think that just plays more in my mind, at least, to Snape’s character, right? The fact that he could pull this over on Umbridge and she would have absolutely no idea, I think, just speaks to his intellect.
Eric: Do we read Veronica’s email?
Micah: Yeah, go for it.
Eric: “Finally, Chapter by Chapter! Snape is a double agent whose job requirements are lying to the other side, so I don’t think he actually gave Umbridge Veritaserum. My question is why Harry would think Snape would be responding to him in any kind of truthful manner in front of Umbridge. Harry and Snape spent most of the year telling people Harry was taking Remedial Potions because of Umbridge! Why doesn’t Harry realize that Snape was just lying in front of Umbridge, and go to Snape again when they are out of the forest and away from Umbridge? If Harry had done that, Snape would have told him that Sirius was still safe in Grimmauld Place, because after Harry’s cryptic message, Snape immediately communicated with Sirius and found him safe in Grimmauld Place. When Harry didn’t return from the forest, Snape went searching in the forest, and when he couldn’t find him, he contacted Sirius again, alerting the Order that Harry probably went looking for Sirius in the Department of Mysteries. This could have all been avoided if Harry just realized Snape was lying in front of Umbridge! Why didn’t Ron or Hermione realize this either? They both knew about the Remedial Potions excuse that had to be given because of Umbridge. If Harry or Ron didn’t catch on, shouldn’t Hermione have caught on? How is it possible for all three of them to not at least voice this realization??? Even Hermione?!?”
Eric: This is a good question. Once Umbridge is out of the way, they don’t come back to talk to Snape. Harry considers that he’s gotten the validation from Kreacher that he was looking for, so he’s no longer questioning the reality of Sirius being taken, unfortunately, and he told Snape just to alert Snape.
Andrew: Maybe I need to read the scene again, but was Harry really thinking that Snape was lying? Because Harry does catch on pretty quickly that he needs to speak in code to Snape.
Micah: It’s a great question, and I think Veronica really hits the nail on the head, though. Why would Harry think – or any of the members of the trio in this moment think – that Snape would be truthful in front of Umbridge and say, “Oh, yeah, Sirius, Grimmauld Place, let me check on that for you”?
Eric: Yeah, all of this was because of Umbridge.
Micah: To your point, Andrew, he had to speak in code to Snape for Snape to understand him. And there’s almost that moment, too, where you think Harry is opening up his mind to Snape…
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Micah: … letting him in to see exactly what he saw.
Eric: Here’s the quote from page 745: “Snape looked around at Harry. His face was inscrutable. Harry could not tell whether he had understood or not, but he did not dare speak more plainly in front of Umbridge.” Snape just kind of… he’s unreadable. I think it’s just the big question mark as to whether or not Snape really understood.
Laura: This is also… the whole end of this book is an example of how people make really, really bad split second decisions when they’re under immense amounts of stress. So even Hermione, who is the most logical and level-headed of the trio at this point… they’re being physically assaulted by fellow school members in Umbridge’s office; she’s probably not thinking super clearly about going back to Snape, especially after the events of the next chapter. I did want to bring up, though, a connecting the threads moment: There’s this kind of beautiful arc of development for Snape. At the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape is heavily advocating for Sirius to get the Dementor’s Kiss, and he gets viscerally angry when he realizes that Sirius has been saved, and he starts blaming Harry and yelling at Cornelius Fudge, “This was Potter! He did this!” And now he’s very calm, cool, and collected. He’s very discreet, and at this point in the series, he’s using his wits to check and make sure that Sirius is safe, his mortal enemy.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: I love it.
Eric: We still hate him for all the nasty things he said to Sirius in the kitchen over Christmas…
Laura: Of course.
Eric: … but can’t argue with where his loyalties are at.
Micah: Yeah, absolutely. I think that Snape would have been a great ally in this moment, if there would have been – to Laura’s point – a little bit more thought placed in the decision-making and not being so split second. But let’s talk a little bit about Umbridge and her willingness to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry, and what does this say about her as a person? And I put in the question – and we’re probably going to debate this a bit – does this make her the villain of the series, with everything that she’s done in Order of the Phoenix? Does it make it her worse than Voldemort? Because the last time we saw this curse in full effect was at the end of Goblet of Fire in the graveyard, and it was Voldemort who was using it on Harry. Now here we have Umbridge, a teacher, who’s willing to do the exact same thing.
Andrew: [sighs] I hate to defend Umbridge, but since she doesn’t actually use it, I don’t know if we can fault her for it.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: She gets as far as C-R-U-C…
Laura: Andrew is just priming himself for the side of the debate that he’s on.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Yeah, guess what side Andrew and Micah are on.
Andrew: She pointed the gun, but she did not fire that weapon. So she could have also been using it as a technique to get somebody to reveal the truth, and clearly it works if that was her plan, because Hermione comes up with this story.
Eric: Right.
Laura: I mean, does it work? [laughs] Look at what happens.
Micah: By the way, the story is terrible. The whole idea of a weapon is just, to me… and I guess it’s just because Umbridge is so consumed by power at this point, she’s so irrational in her own right, and her just lack of thinking through the fact that a weapon exists, and just everything that falls out from there. I know, again, to Laura’s point of split second bad decisions, here is a really bad one on the part of Umbridge to just be like, “All right, you know what? I’ll go with you, Harry, and you, Hermione, just the three of us into the forest to see what this weapon is.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It took careful manipulation.
Micah: No, it didn’t. At least reading it from my standpoint, the whole positioning and argument by Hermione is lackluster. A weapon, really? It’s silly.
Eric: Yeah, I mean, but Umbridge is so desperate in this moment. She’s desperate to be on top, she’s desperate to subjugate Harry, to get what she sees as the truth out of him, and she only knows how to torture and make people feel misery, and she hopes that one of his friends will come clean, exactly as Hermione does. I mean, Hermione is so brilliant because she’s using Umbridge’s fear to sell her this story and diffuse the situation.
Laura: Yep, the same way that Kreacher uses Harry’s fear to confirm what Harry already suspects. So I guess are we going into the debate now?
Andrew: Well, I just… one more quick question. I wonder how Snape would have reacted to Umbridge’s decision to use the Cruciatus Curse, because we see him act very smoothly while he was there, and I wonder how he would have reacted to this. Would he have asked… would he have told Umbridge it wouldn’t work on Harry? Would he have suggested that that’s going too far? What would Snape have done? Would Snape have come up with a story to bail out Harry?
Micah: I could have seen intervention. I could have seen him attacking Umbridge in that moment.
Andrew: Oh, you think that…?
Micah: Yeah, as odd as that may have been, I can see that. I can see Snape… because there’s a line I think that even Snape wouldn’t cross. He jokingly says something about giving Harry potions, right, that would… or poisoning Harry, that he would surely delight in that himself.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yes, he sympathizes with that.
Micah: I’m paraphrasing. Sympathizes, yeah, exactly.
Eric: Oh, and he tells Crabbe to let go of Neville a little bit so that he doesn’t asphyxiate, because it would be too much paperwork.
Andrew: Yes.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: It’s all so smooth.
Micah: So I think there’s a line that even Snape wouldn’t cross with students. I could see him say, “Okay, look, enough is enough now.”
Eric: Yeah, with Umbridge, and with Umbridge, enough is enough. We’re so glad to see her walking out towards… I think at this point, we know what’s in the forest. Even though it’s not a full plan, we’re grateful to see her take the bait, because this whole chapter is so high-strung. Sirius is in danger, Harry is trying to contact him, trying to verify, and then Umbridge, the Inquisitorial Squad, everybody’s got them, the plan fails… we’re just so glad that Hermione is doing these crocodile tears here and that Umbridge buys it, because it’s literally the only saving grace that they have and that this chapter has at putting you at ease.
Micah: To me, on the surface, though, the argument is not a good one. That’s the point I was trying to make, is just if you’re looking at this, I guess, through a rational lens, saying, “Oh, there’s this weapon out there. Come with me; I’ll show it to you. Your crew here needs to stay, but you should feel safe with me and Harry going into the forest…”
Eric: Well, look, I mean, she knows that Dumbledore was up to something, and she was foiled before she could prove it. Umbridge knows that the children have been helping Dumbledore, that there was something called Dumbledore’s Army. Armies typically use weapons. I don’t think it’s that far-fetched. The fact that Hermione uses sort of reverse psychology to say, “Oh, I want as many of the Inquisitorial Squad to go out to the forest with us so that they can see it and you’ll get blown up or whatever,” to get Umbridge to be like, “Okay, maybe it should be just me,” is brilliant. It’s a master stroke. She’s playing into their fears; that’s all. You don’t realize how deftly it’s done, because it’s that deftly done.
Micah: She’s grasping for anything at this point, though, that she’s willing to believe this story about a weapon, and I believe she’s so hungry to deliver something to Fudge, some proof that she can give to him to validate what she’s been saying all along, and really what Fudge has been saying all along. And I was just curious, though, does she only believe the story about the weapon because it’s coming from Hermione?
Andrew: No, she was just excited that somebody spoke up, I think. I mean, she doesn’t really admire Hermione, so maybe deep down, she knows that Hermione would be truthful?
Micah: Right, she wouldn’t lie.
Andrew: I just think she’s glad somebody spoke up.
Eric: Maybe Umbridge is a little bit misogynistic here, because she sees a crying girl, a crying female, and assumes that the emotional distress is leading to them confessing a grave error. Look what happened with Marietta, right? Marietta was very distraught, but had all the secrets that Umbridge needed. And this is kind of a parallel to that instance where Umbridge likes to believe something if it comes out of a girl’s crying, whimpering voice.
Andrew: So we’re going to have a debate now, because as Micah suggested, Umbridge is very evil, and a major villain. Is she the villain of the series?
Eric: Who is worse?
Andrew: Who is worse, Voldemort or Umbridge?
Micah: Let’s just say at the top, they’re both bad.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Of course.
Micah: We don’t need to be like, “Oh, good bad villain, bad bad villain.”
Laura: Right. No, we’re clearly taking extremes of the argument for funsies.
Micah: And Andrew and I have defended Umbridge so much in this book…
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: … over the course of the last however many episodes we’ve been doing Chapter by Chapter that we felt it was time to switch to somebody like Voldemort.
Eric: So are we doing a coin toss? Who’s doing the opening arguments?
Andrew: Laura and Eric can start.
Laura: Okay.
Eric: Laura?
Laura: Yeah, so when I think about Umbridge, she is every racist teacher, every racist authority figure, every racist prosecutor. She’s somebody who hides behind the veneer of her political ambition in order to keep people that she does not like in lower standings in life, to take their rights from them – think about her Squib brother, Hagrid, Firenze – all of these creatures that she thinks are less than. She later goes on to have a Muggle-born Registry Commission in Book 7, so she is very clearly using her position as an authoritative figure in order to further a prejudiced agenda that literally puts people’s lives in danger. Some examples of her doing this: She sent Dementors to Little Whinging to try and literally suck Harry’s soul out so that he couldn’t speak against the Ministry and therefore threaten her position. She then went on to gaslight Harry during his hearing. Then she came to Hogwarts, and she looked to create a generation of unprepared students for her own self-interest, and then she went on to force compliance through physical assault on those students. Now, we know Voldemort is evil and dangerous now, right? That makes him easier to unite against. We know what Voldemort is about, so if Voldemort comes to you, it’s very, very clear what his motivations are. But with Umbridge, having her fancy titles like Undersecretary to the Minister and Hogwarts High Inquisitor, otherwise good people – think Percy – can be convinced by those fancy titles and end up supporting a regime that has values that totally oppose their own. And when I think about Voldemort at his most dangerous, I think he was at his most dangerous before he was Voldemort, when he was Tom Riddle. He was so persuasive and able to get, again, otherwise good people like Slughorn and Hepzibah Smith on his side, and able to use them in order to further a really, really dangerous agenda. This is exactly why Dumbledore avoided giving him the Defense Against the Dark Arts post, for example. So I think that there are just plenty examples of why somebody who is able to hide their own personal agenda behind the veneer of a public servant position is way more dangerous and insidious than somebody who is out-and-out evil that you already know which side they’re on.
Eric: Well said.
Laura: Eric, I don’t know if you have anything to add.
Eric: Mostly you did a great, great job.
Laura: Oh, thank you. [laughs]
Eric: But for me, it’s about Umbridge hiding in plain sight, and just the idea that you are pretending to be good when you’re not is very insidious.
Andrew: Well, Micah, do you want to start?
Micah: Sure. I mean, with Voldemort, he is very clearly the villain of the entire series. I think he’s the antagonist throughout. Umbridge is really a one-hit wonder with additional cameo in Deathly Hallows.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: He’s got a murder list that’s longer than we know, which includes his own family, the Potters, Grindelwald, and Snape. He has this incessant hunger for Horcruxes and immortality. At a very young age, he’s inquiring about the ability to rip his own soul apart, not once, but seven times. And he’s created this faction, this following, right, in these Death Eaters, whose sole purpose is to drive fear and to preserve pure-blood wizardry, wizardkind, and I think that in and of itself makes him the villain. I think Umbridge is a very just different kind of villain, to the points that Laura raised. But as far as who you should fear at the end of the day in this moment in particular, it has to be somebody like Voldemort, because Voldemort is ultimately going to kill you. Umbridge only gets four letters in and stops.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Because some child has a story. Okay, so I just… I thought Micah’s arguments were very good. I would just add Voldemort has attempted to kill children, including Harry. Absolutely awful. I think he’s also way more intelligent than Umbridge. He’s a much more skilled wizard, which makes him worse, because he could inflict a lot more harm. I also think, of course, he’s responsible for the second wizarding war! Which is a big one, and that automatically makes him worse. I completely agree with Micah’s point that Umbridge is a one-hit wonder, one and done. She’s in this book then out. Voldemort is lurking for all seven, and for many years before that. Even after the results of Deathly Hallows, he comes back, as we see in the Cursed Child. He just won’t go away.
Eric: I would argue that the kind of malicious incompetence, malicious anger, racism that Umbridge represents pervades all of the wizarding world throughout all seven of the books. So while Umbridge herself may only appear in Books 5 and 7, what she represents – the kinds of attitudes that people in government who are supposed to protect us are actively working against us – is very much a thread that is through all of the books and through real life as well. It’s personified, sure, but what Umbridge represents, ultimately, is this desire to make these children less safe. And there are always going to be, if I could use a metaphor, wolves in the woods, but do you fault the wolves, or do you fault the person who the children rely on to keep them safe, taking away their winter coats, taking away all their skillset that would allow them to survive in the world from them and putting them out in the woods? Umbridge may lack the courage to actually cause their deaths directly through killing Harry or Hermione or any of the students, but she absolutely sets the stage. She uses her power to strip them of their knowledge of how to defend themselves, and she really puts a target on the entire student body’s heads through her actions, which is ultimately worse, because villains, dictators, they come and go. But the type of person who pretends to be your friend, a civil servant, and is secretly in the background stripping you of your inalienable rights and making you less safe, is the villain. That’s a greater damage than if you’re walking somewhere and you get attacked.
Laura: Yeah, and this is perfectly evidenced… Andrew, I appreciate you brought up the point that Voldemort is sort of the driving force behind the second wizarding war, but the reason that this is able to even happen to the degree that it does is because the Ministry has turned and looked the other way, and Umbridge is a huge part of that.
Micah: Yeah, just to go off of something Eric said, though, do you think that it’s worse to be the leader or the follower? Because I think Umbridge subscribes to a lot of what Voldemort puts out there. You all mentioned how she becomes the head of the Muggle-born Registration Commission. She’s given this authority through Voldemort’s rise to power in a way that she never had it before, even in Order of the Phoenix, and she is just one of many – she’s not necessarily a Death Eater – but she’s one of many who subscribe to the mindset of pure-blood wizardry, and that is what Voldemort is all about. He’s about cleansing the world, and whether that’s of Muggles or that’s of half-bloods or what have you, Umbridge, at the end of the day, is just a cog in the wheel.
Eric: But it’s those cogs that make the gears turn. Without people like Umbridge who enable because they’re fearful or angry or prejudiced, without those people, somebody like Voldemort couldn’t operate. To Laura’s point about the whole second world war, the fact that… I mean, the people at the Ministry make it easy for Voldemort to take over because they continually deny his return was even a thing, and they put the entire wizarding world at greater risk of all the deaths and things that we see coming in Book 7. So to me, I would argue that what makes Voldemort powerful is actually people like Umbridge, and if people like Umbridge didn’t exist, if people could just do the right thing, not give into their fears, tell the truth, support others, have empathy for others and care for others, somebody like Voldemort wouldn’t have the power that he does, and therefore, Umbridge is worse than Voldemort. Because while Voldemort is at the end of the day willing to kill anybody who defies him, he’s one man, and one rogue agent in an entire civilized society should not be able to bring down the whole thing, no matter how dangerous they are. It’s the people like Umbridge.
Andrew: It’s not one rogue agent, though; he’s the leader, and Umbridge, like you said, is just a cog in the wheel. I mean, she’s a dime a dozen, she’s replaceable, so she can’t be the worst. She can’t be worse than Voldemort if she’s just a follower.
Eric: She can, because it’s people like her… so I’m seeing in real world, there are thousands of Umbridges, right? Not just one like in this book series, and Voldemort has all his Death Eaters. And the comparisons between Umbridge being not a Death Eater, but also aligning with Death Eaters, is exactly the point. Umbridge is worse than Voldemort because Umbridge is the kind of person who will trick you into thinking she’s doing the right thing when she’s not, and ultimately she serves Voldemort.
Laura: Yep, the world is not separated into good people and Death Eaters. That’s a line we hear earlier on in the book, and it’s a direct parallel to real history. There were plenty of Nazi sympathizers who were not themselves Nazis, and they were the cogs that allowed those wheels to turn socially.
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: So in summary, Umbridge is worse than Voldemort.
Laura: Yep.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Yeah, but if Voldemort doesn’t do what he did, then we don’t have a Harry Potter series anyway, so…
Andrew: Right, guys, are you saying you don’t want the Harry Potter books? What’s wrong with you? Get off this show!
Laura: Oh, you’re building up a straw man argument; I think that clearly shows who the victors are here.
Micah: No, no, no. Just to kind of wrap it up, though – and this is not on either side of the argument – but I do think it’s interesting how alike they are, at least in their early childhood, both Umbridge and Voldemort…
Eric: Oh, very much.
Micah: … or Tom Riddle, I should say, at that time, and how they go about dealing with their own families, and their biases really grow very strongly from early on.
Eric: I actually do love – and again, not taking either side – that this book presents a villain in Umbridge, because it still manages to have Voldemort at the end, and it doesn’t even feel snuck in, because he’s a throughline throughout the books. But you actually get somebody who you hate almost as much, if not more, than Voldemort in Umbridge, and I think that’s such a cool development from a writing standpoint.
Micah: Totally.
Andrew: All right, so listeners, we’ll post polls on social media this week, MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Keep an eye out for those polls, and you can decide who won this debate. Who is worse? Voldemort or Umbridge?
Micah: So we touched a little bit on the weapon that is out in the forest prior to the debate, and I don’t think there’s too much more to hit on here until we actually go into the forest in the next chapter, but I would just say… I know, Eric, you and I went back and forth on this a little bit, but it really did remind me of your average horror movie where the main character – in this case, it’s Umbridge – makes the decision to split up from the rest of the group and enter the killer’s lair.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: And she decides to leave her protection, which is the Inquisitorial Squad, back at Hogwarts. She takes two of the people with her who probably are not on her side – maybe one is and one isn’t – and they’re going off together into the lair in search of a weapon which could potentially kill her, right? We don’t know. So what do you all make of this? I mean, again, I just thought it was really good quick thinking on Hermione’s part, but also, just as a reader, you’re just kind of like, “A weapon? Really? She’s buying into this?”
Andrew: It is silly because why would children be involved in a weapon? It’s ridiculous. Maybe Dumbledore has a weapon, but…
Eric: Yeah, Hermione does say that they don’t know how it works; they just got orders from Dumbledore to make it, so that rings true to me, right? That children would be capable of building something they don’t quite understand. Because if you get step-by-step instructions, you too can make a cheese and raspberry soufflé. I’ve never cooked before in my life, but if I get Blue Apron… they’re not an ad. Anyway, so the big nuance for me is that Umbridge seems to see some kind of greedy look in Draco’s eyes about getting his hands on the weapon. There’s a weird moment when Hermione spins it so much, and maybe Rowling is commenting that the dark side, these evil people here in Umbridge and Malfoy, are all sort of self-interested that Umbridge seems to think that if Draco saw the weapon, he would want it and want to wrestle it from her. There’s some kind of implication there. Did you guys see that moment?
Laura: Yeah, I mean, it specifically says that Draco wasn’t able to clear the greedy look off his face in enough time.
Eric: So Umbridge is as much relieving herself of her safety net as she is relieving herself of would-be competitors for this weapon, which is a very weird angle, but I love how nuanced it is that the decision to make herself less safe is not just because she’s an adult and can therefore be better equipped to deal with any kind of weapon; it’s because she sees these children that she’s put in power in her Inquisitorial Squad as rivals, and there’s no honor among thieves.
Micah: I mean, when she went after Hagrid, she had the Ministry with her, so why not take a similar approach here? I’m sure she can reach out to Fudge and get Dawlish and others. And hey, look, what would have been the chance that we would have gotten Kingsley or Tonks or somebody to show up, and that would have solved the whole Sirius issue?
Eric: I actually like that a lot.
Andrew: Okay, so before we get to the Umbridge Suck count… and it’s a big one today, because we might very well cross 100 instances in which Umbridge sucks. Can we do it?
Eric: Wow.
Micah: I very carefully planned this, Andrew.
Andrew: Can we do it? We don’t know if we can do it. Shh, teaser.
Micah: Oh, we don’t know. I’m sorry.
Andrew: But first, a word from our final sponsor today, MeUndies; they are back to sponsor this week’s episode. They are the makers of the most comfortable underwear and loungewear. Laura and I – again, just Laura and I – have been long-time fans of MeUndies.
Micah: Eric and I don’t wear…
Andrew: You don’t wear any underwear.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: We don’t brush our teeth and we don’t wear underwear.
Eric: Nope, nope.
Andrew: You guys are disgusting. I can see why you’re podcasters.
[Everyone laughs]
[Ad break]
Laura: If only Voldemort and Umbridge had some MeUndies; things might have turned out differently.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. They would have been happier people for sure. [laughs] Okay, time now for the Umbridge Suck count. It currently stands at 94. So Micah, do you want to run through these?
Micah: Plus one for yanking Harry out of the fire by his hair and almost causing him to choke on Floo Powder. Can you imagine if the Harry Potter series ended with Harry suffocating on Floo Powder?
Andrew: Choking and dying?
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Eric: 95!
Micah: Also giving her one for bending Harry’s neck back as if to slit his throat.
Andrew: Eugh.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Eric: You know what’s interesting about that one, guys… there’s so many throat slit references. When Ginny tells everyone that the corridor is filled with garroting gas, a garrote is a wire used to choke and slit throats, so there’s a lot of throat slitting imagery in this chapter.
Micah: That’s gross.
Andrew: How do you know that, Eric?
Eric: That’s just what a garrote… because I had to look up what the hell garroting gas would be.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Micah: This is turning into, like, Game of Thrones.
Eric: Yeah, it’s pretty weird, dude, but I didn’t write it; J.K. Rowling did.
Micah: Also one in here for allowing the Inquisitorial Squad to chokehold fellow students.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: So that’s 97.
Micah: Yes. Calling Hogwarts a soon to be “Weasley-free zone…”
Andrew: Ouch.
Micah: … as if she was going to do something to Ron.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: Calling Ron a buffoon; that’s not very teacher-like. I mean, come on.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: Calling Ron a buffoon; that puts us at 99 times that Umbridge sucked in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.
Andrew: Is there one more?
Micah: I think it’s possible.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I think there might be at least one more in this chapter. And how appropriate, given the conversation we’ve been having about her bias: She calls Hagrid a half-breed.
Eric: Augh!
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: That’s 100!
Micah: That is 100 times that Umbridge has sucked in this book.
Andrew: Oh my gosh!
Laura: We did it.
[“The Bitch Is Back” by Elton John plays]
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Well, congratulations, Umbridge. You suck a lot.
Micah: Yeah, you do.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Laura: We still have a couple more chapters.
Andrew: And more to go in this chapter.
Laura: Yep.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: I’m impressed, Andrew. You got Elton to play on the show.
Andrew: Yeah, we’re going to be banned from YouTube for that, but worth it.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Micah: All right, so let’s keep going here. Umbridge also makes light of McGonagall’s condition.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: Not cool. How about attempting to use Veritaserum on a student?
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: Putting Snape on probation. While funny, he didn’t deserve it.
Andrew: No, he really didn’t. [laughs]
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: Admittingly ordering Dementors after Harry.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: Probably could be worth more than one, but we’ll leave it there. Well, there were two Dementors, so does that mean it’s worth two?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Sure.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Micah: All right, how about willingness to perform the Cruciatus Curse on a student? I think given that seven is the most magical number in the Harry Potter series, she should get seven for this. It is an Unforgivable Curse.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays seven times]
[Laura laughs]
Micah: And then the last one, she refers to the Hermione as “idiot girl.”
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: All right, so if we counted that up right, the new total is 108, so we blew past 100. There was 14 times that she sucked just in that chapter alone.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: No wonder this was such a long discussion.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Okay, it’s time for MVP of the Week.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: And I’m going to give mine to Hermione’s excellent acting skills, because she convinced Umbridge that she was working on a weapon and it was out in the forest, and it saved Harry from that horrible curse.
Eric: And I’m going to give mine to Ginny and Luna, who are best of friends. They happen to be walking by, they hear Harry shouting, and they insert themselves into the scene. Good on them for being friends and, I don’t know, taking walks down corridors together.
Micah: My MVP of the Week goes to Kreacher. MVP doesn’t always have to be a good guy.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Nope. Yeah, it’s somebody who shifts the direction of the story; I agree. I’m going to say Snape. If only Harry hadn’t jumped to conclusions.
Andrew: Yeah, true. That’s a good one.
Rename the Chapter
Andrew: Now let’s rename the chapter: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 32, “Harry Potter and the No One from the Order of the Phoenix.”
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 32, “Garroting Gas.”
Micah: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 32, “Nonsense.”
Andrew: Can you explain that one, please?
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Well, it’s what Snape says to Umbridge, that Harry is spewing nonsense.
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Laura: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 32, “Harry Potter and the No Good, Very Bad Plan.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Do you have any feedback about today’s discussion? Send it on in. You can go to MuggleCast.com and use the contact form there or email MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also use that email address to send us a voice memo; just try to keep it under a minute. Or you can call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.
Quizzitch
Andrew: It’s time now for some Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: All right, last week’s question: What spell is Umbridge prepared to use on Harry? The answer, of course, is the terrifying Cruciatus Curse. Winners of Quizzitch this week include Ferrax, Bolt Voldemort, SupSarahhh, Alyssa Collins, ReeseWithoutHerSpoon, Meghan Kay, Robbie Stillman, Samwise Potter Skywalker, Laura Catherine, Deb Retired to Nepenthe, HallowWolf13, Samantha Bradley, Casper Aprikatis, Vaping with Dad, Tora Teal’s, Count Ravioli, and MichaelNotEric. Next week’s question: What spell did Neville cast to escape the Inquisitorial Squad? And submit all of your answers to us over on Twitter using hashtag Quizzitch.
Micah: Was it the Cruciatus Curse?
Andrew: Don’t forget to follow us on social media. We are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, so just search and you will get show clips, show previews, some fun Harry Potter stuff that we find around the Internet, we try to keep you up to date on the latest Harry Potter news, and lots more. So we would appreciate a follow; thanks in advance for doing that. Also, don’t forget to join our community of listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. It’s really important to do so now. If you have been wanting to get that T-shirt – our first one in four or five years – pledge before June 30, Patreon.com/MuggleCast, at the Dumbledore’s Army level or higher, and you will receive that later this summer. You will also get instant access to ton of benefits, including bonus MuggleCast installments, access to our livestreams, and a whole lot more. Also, just means the world that you support us, so thank you so much. Again, before June 30. Do it ASAP. Thank you, and thank you for listening to today’s episode. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everybody.