Transcript #471 - MuggleCast

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #471, PUNK’d (OOTP 33 and 34, ‘Fight or Flight’ and ‘The Department of Mysteries’)

Show Intro

[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we are going to do two chapters, two chapters of Order of the Phoenix, and that’s because we want to have our Chapter by Chapter series wrapped up before our 15th birthday, which is in early August, so it’s going to be an action-packed episode.

News

Andrew: But first, just want to mention a couple of news items. There’s been further fallout over J.K. Rowling’s tweets a few weeks ago; authors at J.K. Rowling’s literary agency, the Blair Partnership, have quit over the company’s refusal to speak out on transgender rights. The four authors are Drew Davies, Fox Fisher, and Owl, and then there’s one more who wished to remain anonymous. These authors had invited the Blair Partnership to speak out, but they were unable to commit to any action that the authors thought was appropriate and meaningful, so they decided they had to resign. And there was a little drama related to this because one of the authors, Fox Fisher, then pointed out that “The Blair Partnership said that we were making demands. We were not demanding anything; we were just inviting them to open a dialogue.”

Eric: Blair Partnership said, “We did not meet their demands to be reeducated to their point of view,” and it’s like, “What?” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, they just wanted to have a discussion, and the Blair Partnership did not seem interested. And speaking of fallout, I also just want to mention there have been reports that a few people at Hachette, which is the publisher behind The Ickabog, had voiced concerns with working on the new book after J.K. Rowling’s tweets.

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: We also had been speaking about how the chapter readings seemed to have been put on hold.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Micah, you were upset last week, right? What were you saying last week?

Micah: Well, I just had noted the fact that they had stopped the chapter readings right after this all became public, with J.K. Rowling putting out her letter online, and they actually posted something – Wizarding World did – saying that they’re taking a break for right now and that everybody can enjoy… I think it’s the first 12 chapters that have been released? My theory, though, and I did tweet this out – and Eric called me troll in the dungeon; that’s fine…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … I feel like maybe somebody, She Who Must Not Be Named, recorded a chapter, and they need to go back and they need to reevaluate.

Andrew: I have a different theory, actually. I think they have other celebrities queued up, and then J.K. Rowling tweets all these things and writes this blog post…

Micah: That’s possible, definitely.

Andrew: … and then the agents representing these celebrities got on the phone with Potter-No-More and said, “Don’t release the video! I don’t want my celebrity being associated with the Wizarding World right now.” So I bet a couple of celebrities backed out.

Micah: I like your theory.

Andrew: They may have already shot their videos and their agents called J.K. Rowling and said, “Don’t release that.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, in both cases, Wizarding World right now is scrambling to find new people who’ll record the chapters.

Andrew: We’ll do it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: It’s interesting that you say that, though, because a few people actually had responded to the tweet and said, “I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I’ll do it.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So you have fans. That’s what I said from the beginning when they first started this; they need to involve the fans somehow. It can’t just be celebrities who are reading these chapters. They mean… and I know a lot of these celebrities are fans of the Potter series themselves, but get the actual fans involved. This is not surprising, though; I’m not surprised that they’re taking a break and just kind of backing off here, whether it’s because J.K. Rowling recorded a chapter… or Andrew, I do like your theory a lot. I really do. I think that’s probably more likely, that there were people who were in queue and they have some reservations about it now.

Eric: Yeah, given the speed that they were releasing those and all of a sudden it’s, “We’re taking a small pause to let everyone catch up.”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, right.

Micah: Is that even halfway through the book? How many chapters are in Sorcerer’s Stone?

Eric: 17. It’s 11 out of 17.

Andrew: All right, well, before we get to Chapter by Chapter, let’s hear from this week’s sponsor.

[Ad break]

Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

Andrew: Okay, so like I said, two chapters to go through this week. We will be discussing “Fight and Flight,” and then Chapter 34, “The Department of Mysteries.” So let’s get to it, and we’ll start, as always, with our Seven-Word Summary.

Laura: Centaurs…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: … react…

Micah: … aggressively…

Andrew: … to…

Laura: … Hermione’s…

Eric: … faulty…

Micah: … arguments.

Laura: Woo!

Andrew: [gasps] Oh, that was so perfect. I’m going to cry.

Micah: That was really good.

Laura: Oh my God, y’all, we are so on point today.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Who had their coffee?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: This bodes so well for our double Chapter by Chapter.

Micah: Or it really sets up “The Department of Mysteries” Seven-Word Summary for failure, one of the two.

Laura: Yep.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Stay tuned; we’re going to find out.

Micah: I think for that chapter, it should just be “Door, door, door, door…”

[Everyone laughs]

Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

Micah: All right, let’s talk about this chapter, “Fight and Flight.” And this was a pretty short chapter; may have been the shortest chapter in Order of the Phoenix, and not a whole lot actually happens from a plot standpoint. Umbridge is taking Harry and Hermione into the forest, or I guess actually, it’s the reverse of that; Hermione is leading the way. And they first come across Hagrid’s Hut, and Umbridge asks the question, “It’s hidden in Hagrid’s Hut, isn’t it?”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And Hermione plays off of Umbridge’s feelings towards Hagrid, and she says, “Of course not. Hagrid might have set it off accidentally.” And Umbridge refers to him then as a “great half-breed oaf.”

Andrew: Oof.

Micah: “Of course he would do something like that.” And this got me thinking, though, did Umbridge not search Hagrid’s hut at all after she got rid of him? If she’s so concerned about Dumbledore and his allies possibly working against him, it seems kind of foolish on her part not to search the hut.

Andrew: It does.

Eric: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: I bet that she did search the hut to an extent, but then maybe when Hermione brought up this weapon, Umbridge thought that maybe there was some secret lair underneath Hagrod’s hut. There was a hatch under the dinner table; I don’t know. There was an area that she missed.

Micah: [laughs] Maybe.

Eric: Right, right, and I think at this point, still, the weapon is nebulous enough that maybe it was moved, right? Maybe it is now in Hagrid’s hut, because it’s the last place anyone would look with him having been sacked, that kind of a thing.

Andrew: Or maybe the weapon is a teeny, tiny pill.

Micah: It is a dusty-ass orb, so it could be a teeny, tiny pill at this point.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But I like, Eric, the fact here that you’re giving Umbridge so much credit for thinking through rationally in this way.

Eric: Well, no, that’s the last thing she’s doing; I’ll be clear. I think that she definitely would have searched Hagrid’s hut, and the fact that she isn’t thinking clearly enough to be like, “Well, no, of course it’s not in there,” shows that she is really in pounce mode. She is so high-strung right now and just not focusing that she’s able to be manipulated in this way by Hermione.

Micah: And Eric, you actually think, though, that Hermione is counting on a bit of chaos theory here, right?

Eric: Yeah, she doesn’t really seem to have a plan. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but Hermione’s plan is to get them into the forest where any amount of unpredictability overtakes… anything could happen. And I think to her credit, she is specifically not going to where Grawp is, but she also doesn’t know where that is that she is going, because Harry says that the path that they’re taking is actually the one that leads directly to Aragog, and Hermione was not along with them when they went to Aragog. So Hermione is clearly going into the forest blindly, really relying on chaos theory and the unpredictability of it all.

Laura: Yeah, and she’s actively trying to make as much noise as possible to attract attention.

Eric: Oh, yeah. [laughs] Loudly stomping on branches.

Micah: She has a bit of an idea of what she’s getting herself into, though, it seems like. Deep down she wants to draw the attention of the centaurs; that seems to be clear. But I think there is no true way to know what is going to happen in this moment, because there are so many creatures that are in the forest. But before we get to that, we did ask a question on social media about whether or not this whole plan that Hermione comes up with taking Umbridge into the forest, is this her most Gryffindor moment of the entire Potter series? And we heard from a number of our listeners.

Andrew: Yeah, Mandy said, “I would say her most Gryffindor moment is skipping out on her original seventh year to help Harry find Horcruxes. You know how much education means to her, so not only was it a big deal for her to miss out on school, but on top of that, it was a dangerous mission. Talk about bravery!”

Eric: That’s good. Here’s an interesting take from Alicia: “People think her taking multiple classes in Book 3 proves her Ravenclawness, but I think she was being really brave. Using new (to her)/unpredictable magic and constantly popping around at the risk of getting found out? Also, she punches Malfoy in that book, so there’s that.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Fair point. Emma says, “Second year when she found out about the Basilisk and immediately made sure she and another student were covered safety-wise. She did not go immediately to a teacher.”

Micah: Danielle said, and I like this one, “Deliberately setting the scariest teacher in school’s robes on fire (at the tender age of 11) might be peak Gryffindor.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Retweet. Another Laura said, “Wiping her parents’ memories to keep them safe, without knowing for sure she would be able/around to change it back.” Yeah, that’s tough. I wouldn’t be able to do that.

Laura: Yeah, that one’s rough.

Andrew: Deep cut.

Laura: Eileen says, “Being able to lie to Bellatrix while being tortured.”

Eric: Yep, very Gryffindor. And lastly, we got what I assume is a joke answer and not misandrist reply from Michele. She says, “When Hermione let Ron drive her and the kids to King’s Cross 19 years later.”

Laura: Yeah, we’ve seen Ron drive.

Eric: [laughs] Is Hermione’s most Gryffindor moment. But I think that it was excellent that we asked this question, because I like seeing these moments where Hermione really is balls to the wall letting her lion shine out, and there’s really no other way that I can see you can characterize her complete recklessness that gets them in there, because we find out very, very shortly that Hermione’s plan is deeply flawed, or at least her execution is not well thought out. And this whole acting before you think thing is a very Gryffindor trait historically.

Andrew: Yeah. This was a fun trip down memory lane.

Micah: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of great moments here, for sure, and one moment that could be classified as a brave moment by Harry – or just completely ridiculous, depending on how you look at it – is he asks Umbridge for her wand, since they’re leading the way into the forest and they want to be able to protect themselves. Who knows what is going to pop up as they make their way through the Forbidden Forest? And Umbridge responds by saying, “The Ministry places a rather higher value on my life than yours, I’m afraid,” to which I respond, really? You think that your life is more valuable than Harry Potter’s?

Eric: [laughs] Well, at the moment, right? They’re trying to… if Harry were to up and die tomorrow, oops, it’s not on the Ministry’s watch, so who at the Ministry is really advocating for Harry’s life right now?

Andrew: Yeah, I actually believe Umbridge when she says that.

Laura: I think she’s a legend in her own mind.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: I really… when we did our debate last week, obviously the argument about who’s more evil is far more nuanced than what we talked about, but Umbridge is super replaceable in the machine that is the Ministry. If something happened to her, they could find somebody who is very much like-minded to step into that role, and they probably wouldn’t miss a beat, so I think that she’s definitely elevating herself a bit. And even though the Ministry is not on Team Harry right now, I think that Harry does hold some amount of value to them, just because they regard him sort of like a ticking time bomb. They’re scared of him.

Eric: I think Harry is only of use to the Ministry to the extent in which he’s under their control, and because he’s not under their control, as Rufus Scrimgeour finds out eventually, he’s not of use. And I don’t know; the fact that Umbridge is still employed in two years’ time tells me that the Ministry values her in weird, sick ways.

Andrew: Bingo. I’m on Team Eric.

Eric: [laughs] Thanks, buddy.

Micah: Well, is she still employed by the Ministry when Scrimgeour is in power, or does she come along once Pius Thicknesse takes over? I can’t remember off the top of my head.

Laura: I think it’s the latter.

Eric: Oh, interesting.

Micah: So let’s talk about Hermione’s plan, that at least in her mind, she’s thinking centaurs. She wants the centaurs to show up; that is why they’re making as much noise as they possibly can. And I’m just wondering how much she actually thinks through what is about to happen, because we know Umbridge, centaurs, they’re not going to get along very well, just given Umbridge’s bias and clear racist tendencies towards those that are not like her.

Eric: If she has a problem with Hagrid, just wait till she gets in the middle of the forest. [laughs]

Andrew: It must have crossed Hermione’s mind that Umbridge could die tonight, right? Is that what you’re saying, Micah? Because it seems extremely risky.

Micah: I think it’s a possibility that is at the back of her mind. Maybe it’s not at the forefront in her plan here, but I don’t know ultimately what she’s hoping for. It seems like at the very least, she’s hoping for a confrontation, but who knows where it goes? We see how the centaurs, just a couple chapters ago, were willing to go toe to toe with Hagrid, and Hagrid is a friendly.

Andrew: The goal here was to get Umbridge off their back, and what was the alternative to get Umbridge off their back? They could have created some smoke and mirrors distraction within her office, but that would have only been temporary. This was a good way to get rid of Umbridge for the night.

Laura: Yeah, I think Hermione’s biggest mistake here is that she views this argument as a binary, where she’s like, “You’re either Team Umbridge or you’re Team Us, and the centaurs are clearly going to be Team Me and Harry,” and they pretty quickly correct her, and they’re like, “Hey, we don’t care about your laws or your society or your Ministry, or whatever fights you have with your Ministry. That is not our problem. Why are you treating us like servants to help you dispose of your issues?”

Micah: Yeah, it’s really great points that are made by the centaurs. And of course, Umbridge gets into it with them; she refers to them as half-breeds who have near-human intelligence – a really great moment by Imelda Staunton in the films – and tells them that they’re only here because the Ministry permits them to have certain areas of land. And we know what happens after this; arrows, ropes, utter chaos ensues, and Umbridge is carried away. And this has always been a topic of discussion as to what happens to Umbridge as she’s being taken away after she’s been captured by the centaurs. And I know that listeners in this moment can do their own research on centaurs; we’re not going to dive into it in detail, but there’s a lot about centaurs and their behavior that is gone into great detail in Greek mythology, and make of it what you will. Not sure if anybody wants to add anything else there.

Eric: It’s pretty… the ramifications or the potential for what actually occurred to Umbridge… and we do see her once more in the hospital wing with probably one of the worst expressions on her face. Something bad happens to Umbridge, and so Hermione’s plan is not without its consequences. It does save the day for our heroes in the moment, but I think it’s sort of a sad part of how things come to light.

Laura: I also think that what makes this good writing is that it is very much open for interpretation, and it can be open to interpretation on a number of levels, on a number of age-appropriate levels, so just bear that in mind when you’re doing your research.

Micah: One other thing that happens after Umbridge is carried away, though: Harry tries to reach out for her wand, and it actually ends up getting snapped in two. And I was wondering if this was a bit of symbolism for what is about maybe to happen to Umbridge, or just the nature of this situation that she has now been taken care of.

Eric: Do you think that the centaur snapping the wand – a hoof comes down and breaks it in two – even though there’s utter chaos happening, do you think that was intentional on the part of…? I go back and forth on this, whether or not a centaur was willingly like, “No, I’m going to disarm this wizard by snapping this wand.”

Andrew: I think it could have been on purpose, and it could have been symbolism. It represents her being completely defeated. A wizard needs their wand.

Laura: Yeah, it does carry a lot of representation of the way centaurs view wizard magic. I think that we saw from Firenze, when he was leading the Divination class, that he thinks that a lot of the way that humans practice magic is very surface level, and I think that it goes along with the idea that wizards need a wand, at least wizards in the UK – we understand that there are wizards who can practice wandless magic in other parts of the world – and it could suggest that centaurs think, “Oh, you need this apparatus in order to practice magic? How quaint. Without it, you are nothing.”

Micah: But it’s Harry and Hermione’s only tie to magic in this moment because they had their wands taken away prior to going into the forest, so Harry is probably seeing it at least as having some safety net available to him despite everything that’s happened. I’m not sure he really wants to use Umbridge’s wand, but it’s there, it’s available, and they need to get out of here as quickly as possible.

Laura: Right.

Micah: And we talked a little bit about Hermione not really thinking through things, and she starts to get into a conversation with the centaurs, and I’m wondering if maybe she should have let Harry do the talking, because she just keeps digging herself deeper and deeper in.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Well, Harry certainly has way more experience talking to them than she does.

Eric: Right, there’s that.

Micah: For sure.

Laura: Hermione is just being the perfect example here of somebody who has good intentions but does not realize their own internalized bias in that she thinks that the centaurs are clearly going to be Team Young Foals, when really, the centaurs don’t feel any great stakes in what happens to Harry and Hermione. They’re like, “Yeah, you’re not part of our crew. Our domain is here; we don’t really care about what you do out there. How dare you come in here and treat us like a tool?”

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And with Umbridge’s wand, it’s a bit like walking into a foreign country, crossing a border with a gun. That’s never going to show up well at the border patrol; it’s a hostile action, and everything about what they did really reeks of hostility, whether they want it to or not, and Umbridge’s words could have doomed them all. I do question whether or not they would kill Harry. They clearly will know who he is, but even though they don’t often involve themselves in current day events, they know who Harry is. They’ve always known who Harry is; it’s written in the stars that he has some sort of destiny that clearly does not end today. So if it had ever gotten really close to Harry being injured, do you think that he still would have been able to walk out?

Laura: I don’t know, because there’s that one point where – I forget – one of the centaur says, “No, we don’t hurt foals,” and the other one is holding Harry, and he’s like, “This one’s not so young; he’s almost reaching manhood.”

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: There’s at least some contingency within the centaurs that doesn’t really seem to give a damn about hurting them, because again, they very much do not at this point see their own destiny tied in with the destiny of wizards. I think that changes later, but I think as of right now, they’re like, “No, we don’t care about what happens outside the forest. Get out.”

Andrew: And they also know that Harry has been in there before. He should have already learned his lesson, and yet here he is again.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: “Strike two, Mr. Potter.”

Micah: I think to the point of “the foals” that Laura brought up, Hermione is banking on the fact that they were in a very similar situation just a couple of days or weeks ago, and that they’re going to receive the same treatment that they did. And they should learn from past situations to not even be here to begin with, but the fact that Hermione is banking so much on the centaurs treating them the same way they had been treated when Hagrid was there, that’s a calculated risk that she’s taking, and it’s not paying off at all. The centaurs respond by saying, “We’re an ancient people who will not stand wizard invasions and insults. We do not recognize your laws. We do not acknowledge your superiority.” And I wondered, why do the centaurs get to “claim” the Forbidden Forest? Who’s showing this level of superiority to them? Is it just the Ministry? Because it seems like Dumbledore has treated them extremely well. Hagrid treats them extremely well. Harry has no ill intent here. What’s their deal?

Laura: It kind of seems to me like they’re there and the Ministry is sort of like, “Oh yes, we’ve bequeathed this land to you,” because the Ministry doesn’t really know how to control them, so they’re trying to flip the narrative a bit and say, “Hey, we gave this to you,” and the centaurs are like, “We were already here. Thanks for playing.”

Andrew: Yeah, “We didn’t need your permission.”

Laura: I was wondering, what do you guys think Hermione should have said to the centaurs? How could she have persuaded them?

Eric: We got a message about that from Chelsea Thompson, actually, which I will read, and this is not very flattering toward Hermione.

“Hermione goes into the forest to use the centaurs to her advantage like they are just some animal in her service. After all her house-elf rights, she didn’t give a damn if centaurs got hurt to save her own skin. Also, 100% if Harry or Ron had done that, she would have told them off for being ignorant to centaurs’ rights. Also, if that was her plan, don’t be dopey enough to say to centaurs, ‘Oh, you just take care of her for us.’ At least tell them that you were brought in against your will. I mean, she and Harry were unarmed; it would have been believable. But overall I think it shows her ignorance of magical creatures. Not one of her better moments, in my opinion.”

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Yeah, the whole “We didn’t want to be in here” should have been the way. It seems almost like the natural way, like, “Hey, listen, we wouldn’t be in…” because they’re talking about territory here. Umbridge is stupid enough to actually debate territory. She’s the one who says, “This is our land. The Ministry lets you…” but Hermione and Harry could just be like, “We are so sorry. She had the wand; we didn’t. We don’t want to be here. Please,” bowing or doing whatever they need, “Please let us be on our way.”

Laura: That’s exactly what I was thinking when I was reading this. I was like, oh, there’s so many ways you could play this. You could start crying and being like, “She’s taken us prisoner, and she’s bringing us into the forest because she thinks that the students are creating some kind of weapon against her, and we’re not, and we don’t know why we’re here,” and they would totally be like, “All right, let the foals go. This isn’t their problem.”

Eric: And it’s all true! All of that would have been true, 100%.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Come on, Hermione, use those acting skills again. You just did. Maybe she was all acted out. She couldn’t put on another show.

Eric: I think that’s it. Yeah, that energy absolutely… yeah, I think she’s just drained.

Andrew: [tearfully] It takes a lot, man.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Lot of emotional energy.

Laura: I think she’s also making really big assumptions about who her allies are.

Andrew: Yeah, she thought the centaurs would back her up.

Micah: And if I was Harry, I would have shown my scar; not the one on my head, the one on my hand, and that would’ve probably gone a long way.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. “Look what she did to me!”

Micah: And I’m surprised also last week that didn’t come up in the argument. Voldemort’s scar was unintentional; Umbridge’s was not. That would have been a really good one for you guys to use.

[Eric and Laura hum in agreement]

Andrew: Yeah, good point.

Micah: All right, it is time for Grawp to save the day, and he comes in out of nowhere, and he remembers Hermione! And I just thought, what attention to detail this half-giant must have… or giant. I don’t know. Is he a half-giant? Is he a giant?

Eric: He’s a full giant, but he’s small for his size.

Micah: Okay. Got it.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: He’s definitely a giant compared to Hagrid.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Well, he’s got amazing attention to detail because he remembers Hermione’s name, considering they only met one time, and he acted like he could give a shit. So I just think that this is a little bit of a stretch. But anyway, he saves the day.

Andrew: I don’t think so. I’ll tell you why: because Hagrid introduced Hermione and Harry to Grawp, and Grawp isn’t meeting a lot of new people out in the forest, so it’s probably pretty easy to remember the people that you’re introduced to.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: In defensive of Grawp.

Eric: For me, I think it’s because Grawp is so consumed with finding Hagger, finding Hagrid, that he is looking for… where do you go if you can’t find somebody? Well, their closest ally or their friends or their neighbor’s house, right? So when he sees particularly Hermione, but also Harry, he remembers her name because she was his last known contact or next of kin or whatever to really get where Hagger is, so I think that helps him remember.

Micah: It’s certainly possible. But I’m also a little bit curious as to how he finally broke free, and I was willing to subscribe to the theory that we got last week that Dumbledore is in the forest somewhere, and he just sets Grawp free when this whole situation plays itself out.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I’ll go with your theory. I like the idea maybe he’s just so distraught that he hasn’t seen Hagrid in weeks at this point. Who knows? Or days. I don’t really know the timeline.

Eric: Yeah, the kids were supposed to visit, but they didn’t.

Micah: They were. Well, this was their attempt to visit.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But this is yet another person, though, that Hermione puts in danger’s way. We talked about Umbridge; we talked about Harry and Hermione themselves. Now Grawp is in danger. The centaurs were in danger earlier from Umbridge and her magic; now they’re in danger again from Grawp, because Grawp could easily kill these centaurs, probably with a swing of his hand, or have a light snack in the afternoon, bite their heads off. Who knows?

Eric: [laughs] Harry considers that. He says that maybe Grawp could do some real damage to the centaurs, but the wording in the book is something like words to the effect of “Harry found that he did not at all care in this particular moment about how the centaurs fare.”

Laura: Yep.

Eric: So it’s like, if Harry doesn’t care, should the readers care? But reading the hundreds of arrows that are piercing Grawp’s face is horrible, and the warm blood that becomes a plot point in between these chapters splashing on the ground. It’s very… I feel for Grawp. And the fact that he remembered Hermione’s name also shows that to some extent, Hagrid was right, that there is some sort of care or sentience somewhere deep down in there. Beyond all of Grawp’s outward practices, there is still somebody that has intelligence that could potentially, one day, if treated 100% properly with no mistakes, be domesticated or be made to fit in somewhere in the forest.

Laura: It just makes me feel sad for him. How long has he been tied up with no interaction, no stimulation, thinking, “Oh, Hagrid told me that Hermy was going to come visit me”?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think Hagrid also would probably be a bit disappointed with how the situation plays itself out because of just how many people are being put at risk in this moment, including Grawp, so that’s a bit disappointing. Andrew, I know you actually think that this wasn’t a bad plan on Hermione’s part.

Andrew: No. Well, I mean, Harry snaps at Hermione and says, “Smart plan, Hermione; that went great,” but it wasn’t the worst. I mean, they did get rid of Umbridge, so now they can go and see what’s going on with Sirius.

Laura: Yeah, and it is worth bringing up, this is a great example of how people do not operate at peak efficiency when they’re under great levels of stress, right?

Eric: Right.

Laura: But I thought this was also a really interesting connecting the threads moment between Order of the Phoenix and Prisoner of Azkaban. In the climaxes of both of these books, Harry and Hermione use the Forbidden Forest to their advantage. In Prisoner of Azkaban, it’s to rescue Buckbeak; they hide in it for a while. And then, of course, in Order of the Phoenix, it’s to get rid of Umbridge. But on both occasions, time is really an essential element related to rescuing Sirius. So we see this point in Prisoner of Azkaban where, after they’ve witnessed Lupin’s werewolf transformation on the edge of the forest, Hermione says, “We’ve got about 45 minutes until Dumbledore locks the door to the hospital wing. We’ve got to rescue Sirius and get back into the ward before anybody realizes we’re missing.” And here at this point, Hermione is saying, “Hey, we have to get back up to the castle to get our wands,” and Harry is like, “Well, by the time we’ve done that, Sirius will probably be dead.” He’s right, but not in the way that he thinks, unfortunately.

Andrew: Do you guys think the Forbidden Forest has another name besides the Forbidden Forest?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Because it’s funny talking about what’s happened in the Forbidden Forest when they’re not supposed to be going in there. Is that just the name at Hogwarts to scare the kids off? [laughs]

Eric: I think so, yeah. You’ve got to name it something that’s very clear that it’s off bounds. I think in one of the movies Richard Harris says the Dark Forest.

Laura: Yeah, I was going to bring that up. He does.

Andrew: Oh. Well, that’s another way they can scare off the kids. Calling it dark.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, whenever they’re in there, though, you do see there’s always an attention paid to how dense the trees are. So there’s light, there’s dark, there’s clearings, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Dark Forest, oddly, were the name that people inside it call it.

Andrew: It’s just funny how they can’t quit the Forbidden Forest. They keep using it, even though it’s the Forbidden Forest.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Now it’s time to head off to the Ministry. Despite how crazy Hermione’s plan was, it worked, and now they meet up with Ginny, Neville, Luna, and Ron. Conveniently, they have their wands, so now they just need a way to get to the Ministry. There’s a lot of fighting going on about Harry just wanting to go by himself or the trio going by themselves, and it made me think a little bit about why Harry in that moment looks down upon Neville, Ginny, Luna as potential allies, just given everything that they’ve been through this year with Dumbledore’s Army and how he’s taught them Defense Against the Dark Arts. I know he doesn’t want to put them in harm’s way, but they seem like they really want to fight here, and they want to help him. And I just think about Ron, and I know we don’t have to hate on Ron…

Andrew: [laughs] Here it comes.

Micah: … but Ron’s ability is probably not up to the level of Ginny’s, and I’m not sure about Neville and Luna, but I would say Ginny is much more powerful and able in moments of need than somebody like Ron is.

Laura: Agreed. I think Harry also just doesn’t see them… because he’s like, “If he were to pick any three members of the DA, it would not be those three,” and I think he just doesn’t see them as particularly skilled.

Eric: But what the heck is that crap? Because who are the members of the Dumbledore’s Army that he would have picked?

Laura: That’s what I was wondering

Eric: Going through the class? Because he’s always talking about how everybody is…

Micah: Ernie Macmillan.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, exactly. He talks about how everyone is making progress, like, “Man, even Neville totally kicked the butt of that one jinx,” and it’s like, “Well, dude, everybody’s at the same level that was in that class.” I don’t understand what this comment comes in about “the last three people he would pick.” Like, come on.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, “the last three people” aside, I think Harry just isn’t used to having a squad bigger than him, Ron, and Hermione. They’re the Three Musketeers; they go and take care of things. If you bring more people, that’s more weight, so to speak; that’s more people you’re putting in danger, so I kind of understand where he’s coming from.

Eric: Yeah, that’s 100% it. I mean, Ron and Hermione are in here by default, and by the fact that they through circumstances of just how the books have developed, how the plot has happened, that they’ve been there with Harry before, so they get a pass. I think he would still prefer to be alone, but if he has to be with people, okay, Ron and Hermione. But now that these three other people… and really, the only reason he even consents to them coming is because circumstances happen in a certain way that there’s enough Thestrals for everybody.

Micah: Well, also because Luna is the one who gives them the information about how they’re going to get there. And if not for the fact that Grawp showed up and dripped blood all over them, these Thestrals probably wouldn’t even be in the area, right?

Andrew: Yeah, true.

Eric: Pretty convenient.

Micah: Highly convenient.

Andrew: And also, remember, wasn’t it just a few chapters ago Harry was resisting the help of Ron or Hermione, or both? He can be resistant to even having Ron and Hermione on board. And then to double the size of this group sounds risky, and sounds like… it’s like going out with a bunch of people for the day. It’s a pain in the butt to have six people versus three, or three versus two. “What do you want to do?” “Well, what do you want to do?” “What direction do you want to take to the Ministry?” “I don’t know, what direction do you want to take in the Ministry?”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: For some reason I got the inkling that you’re talking about going with a large group to Disneyland.

Andrew: Yes, exactly! “What ride do you want to go on?” “What prophecy do you want to grab?” “What veil do you want to walk through?” It’s just all these extra questions.

Eric: “Wanna get some churros?”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Churros.

Andrew: “I have to go to the bathroom.” “Ah, damn it. Why didn’t you go before we left?”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, what happens in that moment? I mean, they talked about being really cold on top of the Thestrals. I wonder if that’s a good way to just warm yourself up, right? No?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, a warm churro.

Andrew: Riding the Thestrals together?

Micah: No, no, never mind. You said going to the bathroom.

Andrew: Oh. I was confused.

Micah: Laura got what I was talking about.

Laura: I understood.

Eric: Oh my God. Well, yeah, there should be some kind of spell to… a hot air spell or something.

Micah: Then they don’t even have to do Evanesco.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Anyway, I just actually thought of one more connecting the threads here as we wrap up this chapter, and that is Care of Magical Creatures plays an integral role in both of these books, and we have Buckbeak the hippogriff; we have the Thestrals. They’re introduced in both of these classes in respective books, and these are the vehicles by which they get to where they need to be in both of these books. I’m probably not doing as good a job as Laura would do, but you understand what I’m saying?

Laura: No, yeah, totally. I mean, you’re completely right that these are the winged creatures that are used to run off to Sirius’s aid, right?

Micah: Exactly.

Eric: I’m going to come out and say it: Maybe Care of Magical Creatures isn’t the most useless class there is. That still remains History of Magic.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But magical creatures who can’t fly are totally lame in comparison. Harry sees a Bowtruckle in this chapter; it just kind of whines at him. What’s the point? The Bowtruckle is not helping in the fight. Go away. Go away.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But Thestrals are cool. Hippogriffs are cool. Still not sure what Blast-Ended Skrewts and Fireworms and all those others creatures are doing.

Micah: Well, they needed to introduce the Blast-Ended Skrewt for Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure.

Eric: Right, it was a whole money thing.

Andrew: Now open at Universal Orlando.

Micah: Exactly. All right, so I think that wraps up Chapter 33, unless anybody has anything else.

Andrew: No. I mean, the only other thing I would mention is that flying on an invisible object sounds absolutely terrifying.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Just imagine being on a plane and not being able to see the plane, so you just look below your feet and you just see the ground 30,000 feet below you. No, thank you. [laughs]

Eric: No.

Laura: That’d be a fun ride.

Andrew: No! [laughs]

Eric: No. Harry says when he’s on the Thestral that it’s the fastest thing he’s ever been on, in other words, faster than his Firebolt, which is the broom of the Quidditch World Cup.

Andrew: Time to use Thestrals as brooms.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Thestrals even go faster, though; that’s what I’m saying. So even Harry, who’s used to flying, is a little unsettled by how fast they go. I feel very bad for the people who can’t even see what they’re riding.

Rename the Chapter

Andrew: All right, so let’s rename the chapter, and then we’re going to save Umbridge Suck count and MVP of the Week till after Chapter 34. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33…

[“I’m Like a Bird” by Nelly Furtado plays]

Andrew: Because of the Thestrals?

Micah: I got you.

Laura: Yeah, we get it.

Andrew: Nobody laughed, though, so I guess it sucked.

Micah: I thought you were going to sing.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: No.

Micah: She even said, “I don’t know where my soul is.”

Andrew: Yeah, I thought it was appropriate.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I named it Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33, “Proud Creatures.”

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33, “Granger Danger.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33, “Into the Woods.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: [singing] “Into the woods, it’s time to play… Into the woods, it’s time to kill Umbridge.”

[Everyone laughs]

Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter 34, “The Department of Mysteries,” and we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary again.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Will we pull off another good one?

Laura: It’s a lot of pressure.

Andrew: Let’s see what happens.

Micah: Prophecies…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: … are…

Andrew: … exposed…

Laura: … when…

Micah: … doors…

Eric: … are…

Andrew: … opened!

Laura: Hey!

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well done, y’all.

Andrew: It took you a really long time to say “when,” but other than that, it was good.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well, I was trying to think of the direction I wanted to take the sentence, right?

Andrew: I see.

Laura: That was going to be the connector that decided where the end was going to go.

Eric: Exactly, exactly.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Micah: Oooh.

Eric: I think we should have done “Door, door, door, door…”

Andrew: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Darn.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But this is real good, yeah. [laughs]

Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

Andrew: So I just want to mention that the reason we’re squeezing this chapter in with the other chapter is because we’re not going to analyze the various Department of Mysteries within this chapter. We go through a couple of them in this chapter; we’ve actually already done a deep dive on the different departments, and because we have not learned any new info since our deep dive in Episode 374, which was actually two years ago this month, we’re not going to take a deep dive again this week. So if you want to listen to our thoughts on these specific Department of Mysteries, listen to Episode 374. We will put a link to that in the show notes.

Eric: Cool.

Micah: Yeah, so that’s it. That’s Chapter 34. Thanks, everybody.

Andrew: All right, time for the Umbridge Suck count.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: So this chapter opens up aboard Thestral flight 777 to the Ministry of Magic…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and it’s actually a really cool scene. It reminds me of the Seven Potters a little bit in Deathly Hallows, even going back to… actually, isn’t it at the beginning of this book when they’re heading to Grimmauld Place and they’re all on their different means of transportation? Or am I making that up? I can’t even remember back.

Laura: No, you’re definitely right. The imagery of all of the twinkling lights and the rolling landscape being the only thing that tells them how high up off the ground they are; it’s really reminiscent to that scene at the beginning of the book.

Micah: And they safely arrive in London, and all six of them decide that they’re going to cram into this telephone booth at the same time. I don’t know why they couldn’t have taken turns.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But they all go together. And this is really weird to me, and I know measures were put in place in advance, but there is literally no security at the Ministry of Magic upon arrival, right? Harry gets his name; it pops out of the little slot. It’s Harry Potter. You would think with all the craze that Fudge should have a device on him that goes off if anything Harry Potter-related happens at the Ministry, and yet, there’s nothing. An entire government building completely empty.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: This is really, really weird, and it should have set off red flags, I think, for this group upon arrival.

Andrew: Yeah, especially because they are greeted with a message that says, “You will be subjected to a search,” and that search never comes.

Eric: Where is everybody?

Micah: True.

Laura: This is all really unsettling in terms of the setup, and I was thinking about this when I was reading the chapter the other day, and I was like, “Either the Ministry is just completely ineffective and has no security after hours, which does not seem plausible, or we are to believe that the Ministry is so infiltrated by Death Eaters and Death Eater sympathizers at this point that they’re able to orchestrate this complete lack of security, complete lack of any kind of alarm system.” I mean, we see later in the chapter, Lucius Malfoy was hanging out in the Hall of Prophecies.

Micah: Right, and that’s what’s so disconcerting here, is that they’re able to basically hoodwink an entire government to disappear for… I get it; it’s late at night probably at this point, but it’s not that late. It’s not like it’s two o’clock in the morning. It’s probably maybe, what, nine o’clock, let’s just say, and nobody is there. Even Eric is not there to check your wand when you come in.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I know. From one Eric to another, I can only speculate that the reason that he’s not at his post is maybe Lucius Malfoy, with all his riches and golds, devised an off-site pizza party for everyone, for Ministry workers, as a sign of appreciation for government work, and that’s where everyone is. Because from one Eric to another, the only thing that could pull me from my post late at night is pizza.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: So I think that Lucius Malfoy was able to create a ruse, and everybody’s at a pizza party somewhere, and that’s where everyone is.

Andrew: If anyone wants to break into Eric’s house, just lure him out with a pizza party somewhere.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Hey, last week I got The Last of Us 2 game. The only thing I went out for was a Little Caesar’s pizza down the road.

Andrew: [laughs] Little Caesar’s.

Eric: And then I kept playing. The entire weekend, the entire weekend. So I’m telling you, this works.

Andrew: Wow. Okay, noted.

Laura: I would love to see, when we get a Harry Potter TV show – I’m saying when, because I believe we are going to get it – I would love to see a sequence, obviously something that’s not in the book, but a sequence of all of the pieces falling into place as all of the Death Eater sympathizers at the Ministry pay people off to get out of the building, or create these distractions, or send fake messages to people from their families, being like, “Oh, there’s an emergency at home. You have to come home.” I think this would make a really cool pacing scene that would also kind of set the stage and make this make a little more sense from a visual standpoint.

Micah: Totally. I was going to say for our next Quizzitch Live, we’re going to ask the question, “How did Voldemort get into the Ministry of Magic?” And the answer is just “Pizza, man.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, there’s an ongoing joke, or running gag or question that is asked on Alohomora podcast often, which is, “Is it alive?” And I want to talk about this cool female voice. Is it alive? When you talk to her on the phone, or when the voice is asking for people’s names, it’s able to translate people’s names to badges, and she translates that “We’re here to save somebody.” She calls it a rescue mission. Is this a real person somewhere or is it automated? Because if it isn’t automated, wouldn’t this human person – well, presuming human – alarm anybody or tell anybody that Harry Potter just arrived?

Andrew: It sounds automated to me, but that is a good question. Stephanie, who’s listening live, says, in reference to where Eric the security guard is, “I mean, he is British. Maybe he was getting a cuppa tea.”

Micah: Wow.

Eric: Oh, sorry, that’s much more Anglo… yeah, I’m sorry. That’s much more Anglo-Saxon. He was off getting tea.

Micah: Oh, that’s what it is. It’s tea time. That’s why nobody’s at the Ministry right now.

Eric: It’s a tea party, yeah.

Andrew: Tea time, pizza-flavored.

Micah: We’re going to get so many emails.

Eric: Again.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Now, not only is the atrium of the Ministry completely empty, the elevators are completely empty, and probably the most important place within the Ministry itself, the Department of Mysteries, there’s nobody there. There is no security. Six teenagers can just roll up. No Unspeakables working at this hour, I would say. Andrew, I know you save this for Hogwarts, but in this moment, the Ministry, it’s a security nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: Yeah, it absolutely is, and the sound effect was running through my head when I listened to this chapter, when I read this chapter.

Eric: Is it easier for them to get in now than it is for them to break into Hermione’s office in Cursed Child too? Because after 19 years, you would think something would improve, but it really, really, really, really doesn’t.

Andrew: Well, and you guys mentioned earlier, “Okay, it’s late, so maybe security is not there,” but there should be 24/7 security at the Ministry of Magic. That’d be like Congress not having security guards late at night. No, of course there’s security.

Eric: I mean… well, and through Umbridge, we know that the Ministry has access to these security trolls. If one of them is guarding Harry’s Firebolt, then they can easily put one in the atrium after hours, just as some obstacle.

Andrew: But is it…? I mean, yeah, clearly, like Laura mentioned, a good scene for a Harry Potter TV show. Clearly, Lucius and the rest of the Death Eaters did something to reduce the security so that Harry could get into the Hall of Prophecies.

Micah: Right, there’s definitely foul play going on.

Andrew: We just need to be mindful of that when complaining about the lack of Ministry security. [laughs]

Micah: I know, but when you’re older, you think about these things.

Andrew: Yeah, of course.

Micah: We may have even thought about this when we were younger when we were having these conversations, just about how lax the security is, and the fact that there’s nobody there. It’s not just there’s no security; there’s nobody.

Eric: So who’s on the other end of the phone? Is it a woman? Is it a person? Or is it not…?

Andrew: She probably works from home.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: She telecommutes.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s a Zoom connection.

Laura: I don’t know; I got a crazy idea about maybe it’s neither a person nor an automation. It could be saved intelligence. This idea of like, after somebody is no longer alive, you just port their intelligence into something else, into some kind of receptacle, so that it can go on beyond the body. And that got me thinking about the brains that are just chilling.

Eric: I was going to say, Laura, this sounds like such an absurd theory, if this same chapter weren’t the chapter where we learn that the Ministry has brains in tanks.

Laura: Yes! Exactly. What are they doing?

Micah: That would have been funny if when they approached the tank, they started hearing the recording from earlier in the chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think the brain room is to study just why humans are so darn stupid sometimes, trying to figure out what triggers all that stupidity.

Micah: Oh, so you think they’re human brains. They’re not even wizard or witch brains.

Andrew: Well, they could be a mix of both.

Micah: That’d be a little weird.

Andrew: Maybe they’re studying the difference between Muggle brains and wizard brains.

Eric: So if the room really existed in real life, that room would be packed right now with people studying why people still aren’t wearing masks.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yes, exactly.

Micah: So we enter the Department of Mysteries, really, through this rotating room, right? It’s the room that’s on the cover of the US edition of Order of the Phoenix, and it’s definitely been built to confuse those who don’t have familiarity with it. So I’m assuming Unspeakables know how to navigate their way through the Department of Mysteries. I’m curious how many times it may have taken somebody like Lucius Malfoy to work his way through and not get tripped up. We know that members of the Order of the Phoenix clearly know how to navigate their way through because of Arthur guarding the prophecy earlier on in the year, but this seems like a really good tactic to have in place to protect what is inside the department itself.

Eric: I mean, is this a place of business, or is this a circus attraction? What’s going on here with the rotating room? You close the door; it spins out of control and resets. Come on. They’re in a fun house right now.

Andrew: From a security standpoint, though, it does make sense. I would think some people do understand how it works, though. There’s probably a way to know exactly which door leads where, some hidden clues or something. Or like, at 7:15 p.m. Eastern, the door opens to the brain room. At 7:20, the door opens to the love room.

Eric: That’s a good point. For me, it really speaks volumes about Harry’s dependency on his dream. He is now all in on the dream, not just because he saw Sirius being tortured and now his scar hurts, but because at this point, there’s no question that anything he ever saw in his dream would not be true, and everyone else is there along for the ride, really relying on just a room that has shimmering lights. Harry says, “I’ll know it when I see it,” but there’s no question at this point anymore whether or not everything that Harry saw isn’t 100% factually true, and eventually they do get led to the room of prophecy, so I guess that’s not really a downside.

Andrew: And I’m just thinking about what Ginny, Neville, and Luna are thinking when Harry is like, “Oh yeah, I remember this part from my dream, and this part of the dream.” I’m like, “We’re going off of your dreams right now? That does not seem very reliable.”

Eric: And I mean, half of them don’t even know properly that Sirius Black is a good guy. Why is Harry…? Because he hasn’t taken time to explain to them that… Luna is just like, “Stubby Boardman? Question mark?” But Neville sure as hell doesn’t know why they’re going where they’re going, and I don’t know; it’s just a lot of the explanation is lacking a little bit right now. But they’re friends of Harry, and it’s a testament to their bravery, their Gryffindor traits, that say that they’re all here.

Andrew: Yeah, and trusting Harry.

Micah: What about Luna, though? I mean, she’s not a Gryffindor.

Eric: No, but she’s being very brave in this moment. And it’s her intelligence that’s really gotten this far.

Micah: Yeah, I would definitely say she’s brave, but I think she’s just more like she’s happy to be along for the ride, and just enjoying the moment. I just get that sense from her. Her intellect definitely proves useful throughout, and obviously going back to the Thestrals to get to the Ministry in the first place, but I just feel like she’s just herself. She’s always herself.

Eric: And at this point, Harry has really understood that he can rely on his instincts, right? This always just works out well for Harry at the end of these books; he relies on his instincts to go where he needs to go. I think this is a classic deconstruction of that, though, because when they do get to the Hall of Prophecy and they find Sirius isn’t there, Harry is finally forced to question his own… what he thought was true.

Micah: Right. And I’m just surprised, though, that these doors open. You would think, again, there would be more security in place, and apologies if we learn that the Death Eaters paved the way for them to be able to get through, but it’s just really surprising to me that they would be able to just go into these doors and not have any consequences. And we touched a little bit on the brain room; I’m not sure if we want to go into it anymore. I know, Andrew, you had mentioned we do a bit of that on Episode 374, so folks can check that out. The one room I did want to talk about, though, of course, is where the veil is housed, and they actually come upon it relatively quickly, and it’s much different in the movie. But the fact that we go to this room initially in this chapter, and that we’re going to come back to it very shortly, I think is important, especially because of how entranced Harry is with the veil itself. And it’s said to be in almost this amphitheater type of setting, and it has a very old feeling to it. It doesn’t even seem like it’s part of the Ministry itself; it’s almost like the Ministry was built around this. And I know we’ve probably had many, many discussions over the years about the veil and about its setting, but I’m just curious to get people’s thoughts here. Do we think that this is something that existed before the Ministry was constructed?

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: I think so. They didn’t build this veil just for the purposes of the Department of Mysteries. And it’s very interesting and very scary reading the scene, knowing how dangerous this veil is, because Harry is very drawn to it. It almost seems like he wants to walk through it. He’s drawn to the voices, the allure of the veil, of it blowing in the wind, and just knowing that it’d be so easy to die just by walking through there. It’s incredibly dangerous, and a room like this should have more security. In fact, I mean, we’re talking about maybe the Death Eaters set it up so that it was easy to get in; would they want Harry to easily get to the veil and accidentally trip and fall through the veil? So maybe they didn’t open up the security; maybe it’s always been like this.

Eric: [laughs] That’s true.

Laura: Yeah, I got the distinct impression while I was reading this that the veil is predatory. It’s very appealing to not just Harry, but also Ginny, Neville, and Luna are also described as being entranced by the veil. The only people who don’t seem to be are Ron and Hermione, and I think that’s because what Harry, Ginny, Neville, and Luna all have in common is proximity to death. Ginny was possessed by Voldemort, and I think that that is probably where her connection comes in. And we understand where Neville and Luna’s come in, just because they’ve witnessed death. But it’s kind of scary, because there’s this part where it describes Harry putting a foot up on the dais without even realizing it, like it’s luring him in.

Eric: Oh, yeah. He says, “There are people in there!” and Hermione demands, “What do you mean, ‘in there’? There isn’t any ‘in there,’ it’s just an archway, there’s no room for anybody to be there – Harry, stop it, come away.” Hermione is actually freaking out by how entranced Harry is by it.

Laura: Well, and I see, I think, Micah, you have this here, the first hint of Sirius’s fate is that Harry thinks he hears, or he asks for Sirius when he’s approaching the veil.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, it’s not the first hint; I mean, we could go back probably to Prisoner of Azkaban, even.

Laura: Yeah, of course.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I think we had actually started a count back at the beginning of Order of the Phoenix, all of the death omens for Sirius, and this is definitely one that should have been a clear indication to the reader that Sirius is in a lot of trouble. Because if Harry is approaching this structure that we know has, as you said, Laura, some predatory nature to it, clearly is a pathway to another realm, and he’s asking for Sirius, then Sirius is in quite a bit of trouble.

Laura: Yep. And I thought this was just… it reminded me of this interesting moment from Prisoner of Azkaban, where at Christmas Trelawney has her freak-out about the number 13. When Dumbledore asks her to sit down at a table that has 12 people at it, she’s like, “Oh, no, I can’t. When 13 people dine together, the first to rise is the first to die.” And later on in the book, Dumbledore is very specific about telling Harry and Hermione that in order to get to Sirius, they need to go to the 13th window on the west tower, and I’m just like, “Oh my God, she’s been setting him up to die from the moment she introduced him.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah. Well, is it also Sirius that does stand up from a table of 13 at some point in the series?

Laura: I think you’re right.

Micah: I forget when it is.

Eric: Yeah, earlier. Either at Christmas or earlier in this book, there are 13 people.

Andrew: I think it’s this book, yeah, at Grimmauld Place.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: I wonder, too, if part of Harry’s entrancement with what is going on with the veil has anything to do with his Horcrux.

Laura: Very likely.

Andrew: That’s an interesting point, yeah. Because did the others hear the voices? Was it just Harry?

Eric: I think only Luna said she heard them.

Andrew: Oh, she did too? Okay.

Eric: But Luna hears everything.

Andrew: [laughs] Luna is always hearing voices.

Eric: And she continually gets shit from Hermione. When they’re at the locked door, Hermione is like, “I bet it’s one of those crumply things behind this door, the Crumple-Horned Snorkack.” [laughs] I’m like, “People can’t stop making fun of Luna.” Man, it’s just awful.

Micah: I’m still surprised that there is nothing in place here, because I wonder if you have Unspeakables, let’s just say, that are working within this room where the veil is, they work to keep sort of the predatory nature of it at bay, and it’s just kind of having the opportunity to do whatever it would like here in this moment. And do you think it would have the same effect on full-grown adult wizards? Or do you think that the fact that they’re kids, maybe they haven’t come into their own 100% yet, that it’s more easily able to prey on them?

Eric: I like that.

Laura: I think there’s probably a level of vulnerability that comes with it too. People like Harry, Ginny, Neville, and Luna are obviously going to be more vulnerable to something like this because they’ve come so close to death, and I mean, it could also be a larger commentary about human beings and their tendency to self-destruct. I mean, that’s a really dark way to take it, but oftentimes human beings make some really bad choices psychologically that don’t turn out well for them, and for some people, this can be a result of deliberately self-sabotaging.

Micah: Definitely.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just we humans, we have a natural curiosity, so we see something like this, and we’re going to be drawn to it. And just imagine walking into the department for your first time. I mean, there’s so much to see here, and being a curious kid, you want to check everything out and maybe walk through that veil.

Micah: And I think Harry is so desperate to find Sirius in this moment that he’s just literally looking around every corner at every opportunity, and it seems like the veil is willing to provide a false sense of security in that way. And so we’re lucky that Hermione is there and she isn’t entranced by this, because she’s the one who’s able to finally get Harry away and they’re able to go back to the rotating room. And it’s in this moment where we get another hint of Sirius’s fate, and it’s when they encounter a locked door, because I guess at least one of them needs to be locked.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And Harry tries Sirius’s knife, and we know that his knife is good to pretty much open any door – he’s used it on Umbridge’s office – and it melts. And to me, that’s another hint, another omen, that Sirius is not long for it for much longer.

Laura: Don’t we later find out that that’s the love room?

Eric: Yeah, Dumbledore tells Harry. He asks him directly, “What’s in that door, Professor?”

Laura: And see, this is why I think that probably, under normal circumstances, all these other doors would be locked too, but I could see the Death Eaters opening them except the love door, because they’re like, “Uh, we don’t want to open that one, because that defeated our boss last time.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Or they’re just like, “Ew, gross. Love.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Cooties.”

Eric: “Cooties!”

Micah: Maybe Bellatrix opened it just a little bit, and then that’s why we have Cursed Child.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But one room we get to before the Hall of Prophecy is what we’ll call the time room, and again, we do go into a lot of detail about it on Episode 374, but this room really seems to entrance Ginny, right? And the whole chicken and the egg kind of a weird series of events happens in here, but I’m not really sure what to make of it.

Andrew: I don’t know. Does it go back to the diary? Maybe she was just impressed by it.

Laura: I mean, it could, because I think there’s a connection to be made there. Ginny lost so much time because of the diary in Chamber of Secrets, there’s probably a large chunk of her second year at Hogwarts she doesn’t remember, so I could see that sort of setting her up for an interest in what she’s seeing in this room.

Eric: Also, it’s interesting to see that hourglass with, as Micah said, the chicken and the egg thing. The higher it goes, it ages, but then when it sinks back down, it goes back in its own time. It just reminds me that when we did Episode 374, we didn’t have Avengers: Endgame, where that scene where Ant-Man gets sent back through time, but it’s accidentally his own time that he’s going through, so he comes back as a baby because there’s manipulating time in the way that it gets changed around you, and you stay the same age, but then there’s also interrupting your own timeline, and aging and de-aging. And actually the weirder part, the second part, the one that’s aging and de-aging you rather than moving you through time, is also a possibility that is being explored. We literally see it happening in this room as well. So there’s more than just a bunch of Time-Turners on shelves here; this is literally the room where how time works itself is being studied, and I think that’s really cool.

Micah: Definitely. And it reminds me of Fawkes a bit, too, in particular once it’s the rebirth aspect of it. Let’s talk about the Hall of Prophecies, a.k.a. Ikea, right, Andrew?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It reminded me of the self-serve area of IKEA, where there’s many, many rows.

Eric: [laughs] Yes.

Andrew: And they’re looking for a row in the 80s or 90s, and that’s me when I’m looking for a new dresser; you have to go all the way to the back of the self-serve area. Oh my God, it’s the worst.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And some of these prophecies, they have a weird liquid glow. Others are described as dull and dark within as blown light bulbs. And I was just curious, what do we all think this means? Does this reflect maybe the age of the prophecy? Its usefulness? Could some of these have already been fulfilled or not fulfilled?

Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s a mix of those.

Eric: Yeah, I think the gray ones are for prophecies that didn’t come true, that empirically, if they were about two people the way that Harry’s is about him and Voldemort, that they didn’t come true. And so the light within, the light of possibility, the light of that prophecy coming to pass, is just faded. Now, I don’t know why there’s still 97 rows and they’re still storing prophecies that have presumably come to pass, because there’s not 97 rows of prophecies that are still in play. There’s just no way. There aren’t that many Seers in this world.

Micah: Well, that’s why we destroy it in the next chapter.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Spring cleaning.

Eric: We’re actually doing the Unspeakables a favor.

Andrew: Yeah, I think age is an interesting factor. I think that’s the most likely. It could also depend maybe on how the prophecy was made. Maybe they’re made in different ways.

Laura: I was thinking that it could be related to whether or not the people they’re about are still alive.

Andrew: Oooh, yeah.

Laura: If the people that the prophecy concerned have all passed away and the prophecy never came to pass, then it’s done, right?

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great idea.

Micah: Yeah, I think that’s a really great point as well. So Andrew, as you mentioned, there’s rows and rows and rows and rows, and Harry, once they finally get to where they need to be, can’t find Sirius. What a shock.

Andrew: Uh-oh, Spaghettios.

Micah: He’s not there. Nowhere to be found. Now, I had another question here – just as important, by the way – what is Harry’s plan?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Right? He knows that Sirius is, let’s just say, incapacitated. Was he just planning to roll up on Voldemort and do what? He’s the Dark Lord.

Andrew: Avada Kedavra.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, maybe. But it doesn’t seem very well thought through, because if Sirius is also there, Voldemort is there, and he’s now taken five of his friends into the very place where presumably the most dangerous person in the world, who likes to kill people, is hanging out.

Eric: Fair point.

Andrew: Chaos theory. Just show up and hope for the best.

Eric: It works for Harry to escape Voldemort all the time, but his four closest friends are not going to be that lucky if it were Voldemort really there.

Micah: All right, well, I mean, there isn’t a whole lot more to this chapter outside of Harry finally retrieving the prophecy. Ron is the one that alerts him to it in the book. I actually like the fact that it’s Neville in the movies, just given the fact that the prophecy could have been about Neville.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: So I say kudos to… who was that? Michael Goldenberg?

Eric: Oh, probably.

Micah: It wasn’t Steve Kloves for Order of the Phoenix, right?

Andrew: No, this was the one not written by Kloves.

Micah: I like the fact that Neville is the one who does it in the movie. But anyway, Harry retrieves the prophecy. There’s some cryptic language on the outside of it; can’t really make out much of it right now. And he learns after he retrieves it that he’s not by himself.

Andrew: What’s up, Harry? You just got Punk’d!

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Real bad. Now you know why he didn’t want to bring Ginny, Luna, and Neville along.

Micah: That is the end of the chapter. You did have one other question here, Andrew, that I think is an important one, which is…

Andrew: Yeah, so the Department of the Mysteries is fascinating, and I think when we read about it in Book 5, we were hoping to learn more in 6 or 7, and we never did. And then we thought, “Well, maybe the encyclopedia.” That never came along. “Maybe Pottermore.” J.K. Rowling never dived into the Department of Mysteries further, and we’ll learn a little more in the next chapter, but are we bummed that we still haven’t learned more about the various departments?

Laura: Yes.

Eric: Definitely.

Laura: Back in the day, pre-Book 7, I was convinced that the Department of Mysteries was going to play some sort of integral role in the climax of the series, and then nothing came of it. And I was like, “Why would you introduce all this interesting stuff and then never do anything with it?”

Micah: It’s funny that you say that, Laura, because I had a point in here, and I forgot to mention it when we were talking about the amphitheater and the veil, because there were theories galore once the US cover of Deathly Hallows was released that that was, in fact, where we were going back to. And we probably have episodes upon episodes talking about that; we were like, “We’re going to be in the Department of Mysteries. It’s Harry versus Voldemort. The veil is there. What’s going to happen? What does it all mean?” And we didn’t get anything. It’s the freaking Great Hall.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Thanks, Mary Grand-Pré.

Eric: With the ceiling blown off. Or wait, the ceiling is transparent, so no, they’re just in the Great Hall.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I remember J.K. Rowling saying… and if we could think about it this way, yes, I’m super disappointed it didn’t come back in Book 7, like we’re all saying. But if the Harry Potter series, if all seven books had existed without the Department of Mysteries, then magic would kind of exist just willy nilly, right? So clearly, a place like this had to exist, a place where the deepest mysteries are studied, and the rules that we learn so much about in the other Harry Potter books are given an explanation, or we at least see that there’s physical rooms where those rules of magic are studied. And so J.K. Rowling would actually not be doing her job as a world builder, she’d be not doing her job as someone who’s writing these books, if she didn’t show that this place, at least, was there. But beyond that, I don’t think there’s any interest in explaining why you can’t summon food or whatever. I think that’s all… we just understand that there’s a government building somewhere – maybe it existed before the rest of the building – that people are studying these and answering these questions.

Micah: I think it would have been cool to get a little bit more information, though, about some of these departments, because it’s very clear that there are areas of the Department of Mysteries that we probably don’t even read about in Order of the Phoenix, and then don’t get any more mentions of for the rest of the series. But I do like what you’re saying, because I think it parallels a lot of the mysteries that we have in our own world, right? And the fact that there are unexplainable things that are constantly being studied that there just aren’t answers to right now, and I think it’s cool to see that the same thing exists in the wizarding world.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, why aren’t people wearing masks when they go outdoors? I want to see the room devoted to that!

Laura: [laughs] Yeah. No, I agree with you. My only point of contention here is that so much emphasis was placed on this freaking veil, and so much of this series is tied up in the concept of death, right? And so it just seems like a lost opportunity or a missed opportunity to me that we’re introduced to this veil, and ultimately its only reason for existing is to give Sirius a way to die.

Andrew: Aw, yeah. What the heck?

Eric: Yeah, if one thing came back, it should have been the veil, and Harry should have been able to have a conversation with Sirius. But I guess he does a little bit in “The Forest Again,” right? With the Resurrection Stone? Is Sirius there when he…?

Micah: Yeah, all four of…

Eric: There you go.

Micah: Well, except Pettigrew. Lily replaces Peter.

Laura: Right, she’s the new fourth Marauder.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: But yeah, knowing that Voldemort is so obsessed with becoming a master of death, this just seems so odd to me that we never see this again.

Andrew: All right, let’s move on to the Umbridge Suck count now. So we got a big batch here. One for insulting Hagrid in the previous chapter.