Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #475, Denial and Acceptance (OOTP 38, The Second War Begins)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: On today’s episode, we will discuss the final chapter of Order of the Phoenix, and then we are going to be finished with Chapter by Chapter! I think forever!
Eric: Oh, wow.
Andrew: This has been a long time coming. I don’t know when we started Chapter by Chapter, but it was probably sometime after Book 7 was released, right?
Eric: It was actually in the buildup. We started Chapter by Chapter as early as Episode 32, I want to say.
Andrew: Really? With what book?
Eric: Well, three of the books; I forget which ones specifically. I think it was… we didn’t do Book 6, but it was 1, 2 and 3, maybe? Not in that order.
Micah: Because why would we do that?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Right.
Micah: And we left a chapter out of Sorcerer’s Stone, from what I remember.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: It’s like The Avengers. You don’t watch them in order.
Eric: Right, right, right. But obviously, once Book 7 came out, we had a lot more to work with.
Andrew: Eric was very close. Episode 31 is when we discussed the first three chapters from Sorcerer’s Stone.
Eric: Aghh!
Laura: Wow.
Andrew: March 2006.
Eric: Oh, so we did start with Book 1. Okay.
Micah: Potential Quizzitch question right there for future Quizzitch iterations.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, so it’s really crazy. And then next week will be our 15th anniversary episode, so we have a lot of reason to be reminiscing right now. So we will discuss the final chapter of Order of the Phoenix. We also have Muggle Mail today, but first we have some news.
News
Andrew: Congratulations to our top five Quizzitch Live viewers! Our latest Quizzitch Live featured trivia all about the Deathly Hallows book in celebration of it being published 13 years ago last week. The top five winners were Morg97, Molly, Melissa, Kate, and Kiran. They all won an edition of a Harry Potter book of their choice. If you won last week and you haven’t heard from us yet, please email MuggleCast@gmail.com so we can get that prize fulfilled for you. And we’ll probably do another Quizzitch Live later this year, maybe. We had so much fun. We always have so much fun with these.
Eric: This was my favorite one yet.
Andrew: Yeah? There was a lot of reminiscing. Is that why?
Eric: I think so. And really, just the questions were great. Laura and Micah, you did a great job combing it together.
Micah: Thank you.
Laura: Oh, thanks.
Eric: I thought everybody was good on their hosting game, and it just seemed like good energy. And one more bit of news here real quick: I have started a new podcast! You’re all invited. But it’s called Thank You for Spieling, and it’s a general discussion podcast. So over the years, I have hosted and cohosted, but never had my own podcast, so that changes now.
Andrew: Wow.
Eric: The latest episode is me chatting some COVID facts with an ICU doctor who’s a friend of mine, so it’s very Coronavirus-heavy. But the one just before that, Episode 3, I’m talking music with, Micah, a guy that you and I have talked to before, David J. Peterson, the language creator from Game of Thrones.
Laura: Oh, that’s cool.
Eric: I had him on, and I was like, “Hey, let’s not talk about making up new languages – let’s talk about music.” And it was awesome; it was a wonderful two-hour discussion, and it’s probably one of my favorite episodes.
Micah: Is he a big music buff?
Eric: Yeah, he’s liked music as long as he’s been around, and he actually was talking about growing up in the ’90s in Southern California when MTV was really, really big and certain bands were just starting out. I don’t want to spoil it, but yeah, he’s really into music. It was a great conversation.
Andrew: Cool.
Micah: Did he sing for you in Dothraki?
Eric: [laughs] No, but he did tell me I am using my title of the show correctly, so that was good validation.
Micah: There you go.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But yeah, so Thank You for Spieling is available on Spotify, Apple, Stitcher, and anywhere else podcasts are found. My plea to you, the listener, is please give it a shot.
Andrew: All right. Well, good luck with the show, Eric. That’s very exciting.
Eric: Thank you. And I meant it; you guys are all invited on.
Andrew: Yeah, all right. Well, let’s grab some whiskey and talk on Thank You for Spieling.
[Laura laughs]
Listener Feedback
Andrew: Okay, so it’s time for Muggle Mail now, and we’ll start with a voicemail.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hey guys, this is Geoff Hutton. I just listened to your most recent episode, and I was thinking about at the end how you talked about how Dumbledore didn’t really need to make the remark that Harry had enough to be going on with, and that’s why he wasn’t made a prefect, and how that took the spotlight away from Ron a little bit, and that got me thinking about what would have happened if they had made Harry a prefect. And I know that Dumbledore didn’t say this exactly when he said Harry had enough to be going on with, but I think that Dumbledore could foresee some trouble if he had made Harry a prefect, because the Daily Prophet and the Ministry of Magic spent the whole summer making him and Dumbledore look unstable and possibly crazy, so a lot of students came back to Hogwarts thinking that Harry was either just looking for attention or that he was not in his right mind. So if they had put Harry in a position of responsibility over the other students, then that might have provoked some insubordinate behavior or possible conflict, and then next thing you know, sassy Harry is taking over the prefect role, and he’s getting into it with students every other day because they just can’t wait to take their shot at trying to see if they can get one over on prefect Harry. I was also thinking that Ron would have been a better candidate anyway, because I was thinking about how when Dumbledore passed, he gave Ron the Deluminator because he knew that Ron would always want to find a way back. So with Ron being made prefect, that kept him busy and actually kept him and Harry apart for a while, which I think was a test of how Harry and Ron would do not being together all the time. Because since Dumbledore watched Harry so closely, he knows that Harry and Ron have been together pretty much since the day that they met, and that they’re really close, and that might be a little bit of a hindrance because if Ron decides to separate from the group, Harry might not necessarily know how to navigate that situation, so this could be a first test for that, I think. Give Ron some responsibility that takes him over here while Harry is still working out stuff over there, and then they can come back together and realize that having a little bit more distance between them and their friendship might have actually been a good thing. Not sure if anyone else is thinking along those lines, but hopefully that gives you guys something to think about. Love the show. Bye.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: I thought that was very well reasoned. I think… give Ron a bone. Geez, he deserves it already.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Yeah, I agree.
Laura: I do like the interpretation that even if you take away everything that has happened in this book, Harry already attracts a great deal of attention, and I could definitely see certain students like Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle rising to the occasion to try and challenge prefect Harry. I think that’s a great take.
Micah: I wonder, though, if him being made prefect would have at least distracted him a bit from Umbridge and that whole situation that develops, because I know he’s got a lot on his plate and a lot of responsibility this year that has nothing to do with school, but I just think that maybe a little bit of prefect responsibility would have distracted him from Umbridge.
Eric: I wonder if Umbridge would have kept him as a prefect. I wonder if that wouldn’t have been, in fact, one of the few first Educational Decrees, is removing Harry as prefect once they had their scuffle.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, probably. Add it to the Suck Count.
Micah: But this is very well-reasoned by Geoff, I thought. Very well thought through, especially when he gets to talking about Ron and his loyalty to Harry later on in the voicemail.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: Thank you, Geoff. And this next email comes from Julie.
“I turned 30 about a month ago. I’ve loved Harry Potter for almost 21 years. I enjoyed Laura mentioning the parallel between Neville and John the Baptist, and Harry and Christ. I was born on June 24, John the Baptist’s Saint Day (I’m not Catholic, but I think that’s cool). I recently read Lorrie Kim’s book about Snape, and I was wondering why Snape and Lily’s friendship was a secret to McGonagall, Hagrid, and the Marauders. Hogwarts isn’t Rutgers. I believe there are between 600 and 1,000 students in the whole school. If Lily was Snape’s best friend for almost five out of seven years at Hogwarts, wouldn’t McGonagall, Hagrid, and the Marauders see them walking and talking together, or studying together in the library? If the trio and Draco often have Potions together, did the Marauders and Lily often have Potions with future Death Eaters including Snape?”
[laughs] And then this last line is also funny.
“I’m not a consistent listener, but I’m listening to your podcast more often these days to make the wait for Fantastic Beasts 3 more bearable. Thank you for your wonderful podcast.”
Julie, thank you for being honest that you don’t listen consistently. We appreciate that. Think it’s the first time we’ve heard that. “I listen, but not too often.”
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I don’t listen consistently either, so it’s okay, Julie.
Andrew: Wow.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Anyway, what do you guys think of this theory about her thoughts on the teachers not noticing Snape and Lily?
Laura: I will say, I’ve always wondered this, because if you stop and think about it for two seconds, you can get a pretty good idea of what the maximum number of students in each House are, right? Because it seems like there are roughly ten students per year, so there are going to be ten first years, ten second years, etc., and so you have, what, 70 people in each House?
Eric: Right.
Laura: It’s not that big.
Micah: Well, what year are they in during Snape’s Worst Memory? Is it fifth year, because they’re taking their OWL exams? I’m just trying to figure out how long it would have been before Lily started to distance herself from Snape. I also just think it could be one of those things where maybe they were close early on in the earlier years at Hogwarts, but then they started to grow apart. I think Lily even mentions at one point the crowd that Snape is hanging out with, and there are names of future Death Eaters there as well, right?
Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think in terms of Snape walking around with Lily, I think everyone else would have seen it, but it’s kind of hard to picture; maybe Snape really kept to the underground passageways where usually only Slytherins frequented, so if he’s walking with her, she’s down there too, or… it’s just so weird, because in the Harry Potter books, their travelings are all related to what class they’re going to, and they do that as an entire House group, so there’s not a lot of opportunity to just walk the grounds, except on weekends, and we really don’t see Harry do that. But I believe it happened; I believe the Marauders were aware of it. What are they going to say? There’s only so many times they can talk to Lily about who she’s seeing, and she wasn’t even that really much close to the Marauders’ group, so they really can’t confront her, because she doesn’t even talk to them.
Micah: What’s also interesting, though, is Dumbledore doesn’t really seem fully aware of it in the exchange that they have when Harry is looking back in the Pensieve in Deathly Hallows. He knows that Snape obviously cares about Lily, but it doesn’t seem like he even brings up their childhood relationship at all.
Eric: That’s a good point. He clearly was not watching Snape as closely as he’s watching Harry.
Laura: Maybe it’s another failing of age.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: All right, this next one comes from Piper.
“I’d like to respond to the point Eric made about why Harry can’t cast the Cruciatus Curse. He said it might be because of the phoenix tail in Harry’s wand, but I find that very unlikely considering the fact that Voldemort’s wand is also made of phoenix feather. Secondly, while reading Order of the Phoenix, I found a plot hole. Why can’t the Ministry use a Pensieve and watch Harry’s memory of what happened in the graveyard? This would prove that Voldemort is back, reveal his Death Eaters, and show the cause of Cedric’s death. This seems like a very obvious solution, and I would like to hear your thoughts.”
Andrew: “Look at my memories! Look at them! They are real!” Although, Slughorn did modify some of his memories, right? So maybe they would be worried that he was modifying his memories somehow. But he’s a child, so could he really do that?
Eric: Yeah, I think J.K. Rowling put that in the books just to show plausible deniability, that memories can be altered. Yeah, I doubt Harry would be able to do it. Or maybe Fudge would accuse Harry of having Dumbledore do it for him, or something like that.
Laura: Yeah. Still, though, I think of this as less of a plot hole and more evidence of the fact that at this point in the series, the Ministry wants Harry to be their fall guy. So I think, yeah, they could have checked out his memories in the Pensieve in order to take a first step towards trying to substantiate his claims, and I would imagine there’s further investigation they could do from there to find out if the memory has been tampered with, but I think the point is that the Ministry doesn’t want to hear anything Harry has to say.
Andrew: Right.
Laura: So I think of this as a further indictment against them. I don’t know. What do you guys think?
Andrew: No, I agree. My thinking was that Harry could try to come to them and say, “Hey, check out the memory,” and to your point, then they would probably say, “No, because he’s not back. Please don’t waste our time with this.”
Micah: Agreed. They’re already somewhat highly embarrassed, and I know it’s not totally public information, but they lose a very senior official in Barty Crouch, Sr., and then the whole mess that is the Triwizard Tournament, and then the fact that this Death Eater thought to be dead for so long is actually alive and has been masquerading as a Defense Against the Dark Arts professor… it’s all happening right under Fudge’s nose. So I definitely agree with you, Laura; I think that he has enough to deal with, and adding on top of that the fact that Voldemort could be back is just not something he wants to deal with, as we’ll see at the beginning of this chapter discussion too.
Eric: And real quick, just about the wand core: I was quickly and swiftly corrected by that by a lot of people, so I want to say thank you to everyone that pointed out that Voldemort also has a phoenix core wand. I did look up wand cores on Pottermore, or Potter-No-More, and it turns out that unicorn wand cores actually are the ones that resist turning dark, according to that info. So I was just confusing my wand cores, you guys.
Micah: Makes sense.
Andrew: It happens. You were thinking on the fly here.
Micah: Taste the rainbow.
Laura: That’s interesting, though. I mean, when we think of unicorns, they definitely come across as one of the more pure magical creatures, right? So that’s very interesting.
Micah: Next email comes from Doug, who says,
“In your discussion of Chapter 37, I believe it was Eric who said how much more satisfying it was in Half-Blood Prince when Dumbledore finally takes up teaching Harry himself. Whereas I completely agree, I also find it interesting that Dumbledore does not try to teach Harry Occlumency. It has long been my belief that the connection between Harry and Voldemort is so unique, that even if Harry had been able to become proficient at Occlumency, he still would not have been able to thwart the connection. Obviously, Dumbledore’s actions in Order of the Phoenix dispel my theory, but his actions in Half-Blood Prince seem to support it. Did Dumbledore learn something, perhaps as he delved deeper into Horcruxes, that made him realize that nothing could dispel the bond?”
Andrew: Yeah, probably. But he had to try to do something, right? [laughs] So that’s why he may have tried, even if he wasn’t confident that it was going to work.
Eric: And doesn’t Dumbledore say that Voldemort is actively practicing Occlumency against Harry? So that is shown to be a successful method for shutting each other out, despite the true nature of their connection. It works. It handles the symptoms.
Micah: But yet we see in Deathly Hallows that he’s unable to prevent Harry from truly getting inside of his mind and seeing what he’s thinking, so I do think that there’s probably something there that nothing could thwart, to use Doug’s words. They’re connected in a way that is a bit unnatural, so I don’t think that Occlumency would have necessarily been able to solve the full problem that’s going on.
Eric: Okay, our next message comes from Caitlin. She says,
“Something that I’ve been thinking about lately, and I’m curious what your guys’ thoughts are: When I was young, I loved reading the books as they came out, and rereading the series often, which I did probably up until my very early 20s. It’s been many years since I’ve read the series, and I am now a 31-year-old mama. I’ve tried diligently during COVID to start the series again, and I’m finding it extremely difficult, especially with the first few books. For some reason I just cannot get into them, and I’m finding them almost… cheesy. Which makes me sad! I will always love HP and feel very nostalgic about both the books and the movies, but I just don’t know if I can read them again. Have any of you had that problem? Is it just because I’m an old fart now? What are your thoughts, as some fellow 30-year-olds?”
Andrew: This is a really interesting comment. I think it’s normal to lose interest in anything over time; I’m sure we can all agree on that. But as you pointed out, Caitlin, we’re going through this horrible period right now with this pandemic, and maybe your head just isn’t in the right space for Harry Potter right now.
Eric: Right.
Laura: Yeah, don’t be hard on yourself about anything that you’re feeling differently about during this. We’re literally going through a completely unprecedented time. I know I have personally felt that due to this whole situation, I am not super into all of the same things that I was into before, and I think it’s because maybe there can be a mismatch. Especially with these first three books, they’re absolutely children’s books, so there’s a lot of whimsy and wonder, and sometimes it can be hard to try and mesh those feelings with the feelings of everything that’s going on in our world. And you’re a young mother, so you’ve got really serious concerns that are probably on your plate as well, so I would say be kind to yourself and let yourself feel whatever you feel. I will say, as somebody in my 30s at this point, if I go to reread a book, I do tend to gravitate towards Books 4-7, and I think that’s just because they start to get more adult. The appeal of the series for a lot of us was that we grew up with Harry, so when we were reading the books, we were roughly the same age as he was as he was going through his years at Hogwarts, so we could relate, and it might be a little harder as a 31-year-old mother to relate to an 11-year-old child. One way to think about this is maybe it’ll be easier to relate to those earlier books if you’re sharing them with your child or children, because you’ll be able to see them through that lens.
Andrew: Right, and see the kids respond to the story and look forward to each new chapter. I also think that when we were reading these books as kids, there was less weighing on us, and now there’s a lot more weighing on us, and what we’re realizing is that Harry Potter wasn’t always a cure-all, necessarily; it’s just that we had less to deal with in our lives as kids. It’s like, if I go and play video games right now, yeah, it helps relax me, but everything that still weighs on me is still lingering there. So that’s why I think… we were at a point in our lives as younger people when we read the books, and it was like, “Oh, this is enjoyable. Okay, what else…? Is there anything stressing me out in my life today? Oh, just some homework I have to do; nothing else.” And now everything sucks as an adult. [laughs] This episode is getting too real for a Saturday morning.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Yeah, confessions of Andrew. Laura raised a great point, I think, about sharing the books with your child or your children. I think that that’s a really great way maybe to reintroduce the series to yourself. And give yourself time, too; step away from it. I don’t know if it’s because we’re doing the reread now that you feel compelled to read certain chapters, but I think there’s always a time where you’ll be able to go back to these books and sit down and enjoy them. Maybe now is just not the time, to points that were raised, with everything that’s going on. It’s just there’s a lot of negativity in the air, and sometimes it’s hard to separate that from the different things that you’re doing that you would normally enjoy.
Eric: And can we as a podcast panel, or as a community, come together and normalize being in your 30s?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I do not think that that is old fart territory.
Andrew: No!
Eric: I am in my prime!
Andrew: Yes, of course!
Laura: To be perfectly honest, I am very much enjoying being in my 30s, and you could not pay me to go back to my early 20s. I had some great experiences and great memories from that time, but I’m good. I’m good with that chapter of my life being over. [laughs]
Andrew: The final point I’ll make is that, to be clear, we’re all still big Harry Potter fans here, but I think we can all admit that the Harry Potter series doesn’t have that same twinkle as it did as when we were kids.
Micah: Right, and there’s also the fact that we were trying to figure out what was going to happen, and I think that there was something to that.
Andrew: Yes, great point.
Micah: All the theorizing that went on, trying to figure out who was going to survive to the end of the series, what the big plot points were going to be… that’s what a lot of MuggleNet and all the other sites and podcasts were all about at that time, so there was definitely a fun, exciting element to it. J.K. Rowling and her site and all the things that she would reveal on it… there’s definitely something to that.
Laura: Before we move on to our final edition of Chapter by Chapter, I have a quick word to share about this week’s sponsor.
[Ad break]
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: It’s time for our final Chapter by Chapter – maybe ever – Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “The Second War Begins.” And we will start… [emotionally] one last time… with our Seven-Word Summary.
Laura: Oh my God. Y’all, this is a lot of pressure.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I know. Thanks, Laura.
Laura: It’s the last one!
Andrew: And Micah, I thought since you have been planning these discussions, you should start this Seven-Word Summary.
Micah: All right, here we go. Hogwarts…
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Andrew: … is…
Eric: … not…
Laura: … the…
Micah: … most…
Andrew: … safe…
Eric: … space.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: All right. Can work with that.
Andrew: Yep, we went out on a low note.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Where were you thinking that was going to go, Laura? With “the”?
Laura: Well, I was originally thinking about “safe,” but I was like… I don’t know. Hogwarts is probably still one of the safest places in the wizarding world at this point.
Andrew: Well, that’s the fun of Seven-Word Summary. It’s a team effort, and sometimes it goes really badly, and sometimes really well.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: Andrew, you mentioned the title of this chapter, “The Second War Begins,” and I wanted to know just at the start of this discussion, what’s our general feeling when reading this chapter title? Is it a bit of excitement? Is it foreboding? Is it “Thank God, it’s finally here, the second war”?
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: It’s taken five books to get here, and what I did was I pulled the chapter titles – the last chapters – of each of the four books that preceded it, just to get a feel for maybe what we were expecting before the next book was released. Some of them are pretty crappy, honestly.
Eric: [laughs] What?
Micah: But “The Second War Begins,” I mean, that gives you a nice kind of launchpad into Half-Blood Prince, but we can talk about some of these other chapter titles.
Andrew: On its face, “The Second War Begins” tells me we’re going to see a war in this chapter. And this chapter is largely a wrap-up. This chapter title, you think it’s going to be more action-packed.
Laura: You know what I do love about it, though? And I’m going to try and make this point without jumping super far ahead in the discussion. But I like seeing how life is continuing on despite the fact that everybody knows the second war is upon them. and it really reminds me of some instances we’ve seen in real life where horrible things are happening in the world, and we’re still having to go about our day to day. There have been points over the last few years where I have found myself going to work and looking around and being like, “How are we all behaving normally right now? Nothing is normal.”
Micah: Such a good point.
Laura: And it really resonated with me when I was reading this chapter where Harry is walking through the grounds and people are laying out in the grass and chilling and talking and waving at him being like, “Hey, Harry!”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: “You were right the whole time; he is back! And we’re chilling in the sun.”
Andrew: And Laura is over under another tree, and you’re screaming, “There’s a pandemic going on, though!”
Laura: Right, right. That’s exactly it.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Yeah. And to that point, Laura, I mean, Harry is grieving, and it’s very hard at times to read parts of this chapter because the loss that he is feeling, nobody else can really sympathize with, maybe until you get to the end of the chapter when he’s with Lupin and some of the other members of the Order. But you see all the different exchanges that he’s having, and just nobody seems to be able to understand him, with the exception at Hogwarts, I would say, of Luna. Luna is the only one that… and it’s a really great exchange between the two of them, a really great moment, and I think forms their friendship or solidifies their friendship. But it’s just such a… Harry is just… it’s almost like he’s in a pinball machine, and he’s bouncing around to different people, and he’s looking for something, he’s looking for someone to just give him that solace and that reprieve, and it’s just not coming. It just keeps failing every person he goes and speaks with, and that’s really disheartening in this chapter.
Eric: Well, since we’re on the topic of this chapter title, this may be the only opportunity I can utilize to say I read the Harry Potter books by reading first the table of contents at the beginning of every book. I read the titles of each chapter in my head or aloud before turning to page one, and this was something I did ever since my first Harry Potter book was Book 2, because I had seen the first movie. And watching or seeing that “The Second War Begins” was the end chapter of Book 5, I knew – also the book with the most chapters in it – that it was probably not going to be a cheery journey. So I appreciate the fact that there is a table of contents in the US version, because it was able to manage my expectations a little bit for what the tone of the book was going to be.
Andrew: Aren’t you afraid of seeing some spoilers when you do that, though? I know the chapter titles aren’t very spoiler-y, but they can kind of hint at where things are going.
Eric: They can; “The Only One He Ever Feared” felt spoiler-y when I read it. There’s definitely a risk. But if you get to the earlier book ones, “Dobby’s Reward” in Chamber of Secrets, that’s a happy last chapter title; it gives you the idea that there’s going to be a happy ending. And the fact that Prisoner of Azkaban, “Owl Post Again,” mirrors the first chapter, “Owl Post,” strikes you as being like, time is circular, and that also sounds like a happy ending.
Micah: Well, and time is very important in Prisoner of Azkaban.
Eric: It certainly is.
Micah: But my question to you would be, who’s Dobby?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: You’re reading this, “Dobby’s Reward,” you don’t even know who Dobby is.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Isn’t one of the chapters called “Dobby the House-Elf”? Or is that…? That’s the second chapter.
Micah: Yeah, but… oh, maybe. But I mean, in the grand scheme, you don’t know.
Eric: No, no, but I’m excited. I’m like, “Oooh, this new chapter.”
Andrew: How about when you saw there’s a chapter titled “There’s Something About Harry”?
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Did that send any flags up?
Eric: It was probably the same weekend my dad took my family to see that movie, There’s Something About Mary, in theaters.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: What a weird movie for a kid to see.
Micah: But there is something here, to what, Laura, you mentioned earlier, with maybe the first couple of books being childish when we were going through that email. The names of the chapters kind of reflect that, and then once you get to Order of the Phoenix, “The Second War Begins,” it feels much more adult. Goblet of Fire, I think she just kind of got tired of writing that book because the last chapter being called “The Beginning,” it’s not very creative, not very inventive.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It’s the beginning of the end!
Andrew: That’s why we have Rename the Chapter here on Chapter by Chapter.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: I don’t necessarily know that our chapter renaming is better than what she does sometimes.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Hmm. I don’t know, Laura.
Micah: The chapter starts out with Fudge, and he’s kind of giving this very defeatist half-assed speech. It’s almost like a concession speech; that’s what I would compare it to. And he’s just not into it. Just some of the things he said… I know, Andrew, you called out how he references Lord Voldemort. Azkaban has been deserted by the Dementors. He’s just… he’s basically given up at this point, in my mind anyway.
Andrew: Yeah, and at one point, Fudge calls him “Lord Thingy.”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Where’s the professionalism? Where’s the bravery against this archenemy? And it just downplays the enormity of the situation, if he can so flippantly call him “Lord Thingy.” That is so dumb.
Eric: Well, he’s in damage recovery mode. He wants to minimize the damage against the Ministry. So even if he came out and said, “This threat is real, this is happening,” people would give him backlash for not making them aware of it sooner.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: “Lord Thingy” was applicable in Book 1. Not right now.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: I think he knows his career is over…
Micah: Oh, yeah.
Laura: … so he’s trying to say as little as possible.
Andrew: This is like something you hear from Trump. [imitating Trump] “The virus thingy. It’s going to go away. Don’t worry about it.” [laughs]
Micah: No. Well, I’m glad you said that, Andrew…
Andrew: “Corona-thingy.”
Micah: … because he says something to the magical community about remaining vigilant, and that just seems like a really bad idea. Remain vigilant? For Voldemort? We’ve seen the first part of this movie, and it didn’t end very well. So if Voldemort is in fact back, the whole idea of just remaining vigilant is not going to do a whole lot. And it just reminded me of being unprepared for a major catastrophe, kind of caught with your pants down. That’s what’s happened to Fudge here, and it’s not unlike things that are going on in our world right now.
Laura: Completely.
Eric: It’s nice to see the Daily Prophet finally catching people up, though. I think it’s reasonably understood that the breakout from Azkaban of the Dementors happened way before it’s getting reported. It is finally getting reported the Dementors are not under Ministry control, but this was a whole through-line this past year in the book. Ever since the breakout from Azkaban of all the Death Eaters, it was evident then that there was something very, very weird going on. But now the Ministry is finally couching to it and is finally like, “Oh yeah, this happened.” But I think if people are smart and if people think critically, they will realize that the Ministry had been lying to them for several months. The Ministry is just not going to do the work for people coming out and stating it, because it makes them look worse.
Laura: Yep.
Micah: I like that you mentioned the through-line, though, Eric about the Dementors, because go all the way back to Chapter 1, it’s very clear that in some capacity, Dementors can be paid off.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I don’t know if you have a satchel full of souls or something that you give them, or what Umbridge did, but here we are in the last chapter of the book, and they’re talking about the allegiance of the Dementors, again, not being to Azkaban, so it’s a good point.
Laura: I love how Fudge is like, “It appears the Dementors no longer wish to remain under Ministry employ,” and I’m like, they weren’t employed!
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: You weren’t giving benefits. The Dementors couldn’t take advantage of the NHS. Give me a break.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yeah, they were feeding them.
Micah: Do they get paid leave?
Andrew: To you think they can have health problems?
Micah: They probably have really bad breath.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: They need a dentist more than anything.
Laura: I mean, yeah, Harry says that, right? Their breath spells like death.
Eric: But so what was the relationship, then, between the Dementors and the Ministry? I mean, the Ministry was supplying souls for the Dementors to wither away at.
Laura: Yeah. I think the Dementors will just blow with the prevailing wind, and now that Voldemort is back, they’re like, “All right.”
Andrew: Yeah, he’s the hot new thing.
Laura: Yep.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: “He’s going to let us do some soul-sucking, not just hang outside this prison in the middle of the water.”
Andrew: They’re going to travel around with Voldemort. That sounds fun.
Micah: It’s going to be a soul buffet.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Wanted to also talk a little bit about the Daily Prophet, who does an about-face on Harry – talking about blowing with the prevailing winds. They’re obviously the big news outlet, and they have been. The Quibbler comes into play in this book. Interesting to learn that Xenophilius Lovegood made some nice coin off of his publishing of Harry’s article, selling it to the Daily Prophet.
Eric: Ha!
Micah: But I think it says something about the media that they’re all against Harry because the Ministry tells them to be throughout most of this book up until, really, this last chapter, and now they’re going to be all Team Harry moving forward.
Eric: Yep. Yeah, nothing has changed. This interview that’s now in the Daily Prophet was published months ago, and the only thing that’s different is the narrative; the government now supports telling this side of the story, this side of events. So the Daily Prophet goes and scoops up this old interview and presents it as if it were new.
Micah: Right.
Eric: It’s like, “Oh, we can tell this truth now.” It’s shameful.
Laura: Well, the Daily Prophet is also trying to save face, right?
Micah: Definitely.
Laura: They have spent the last year lying to their readership and toeing the Ministry line, and I’m sure they would recognize that this would hurt their readership if people believe that their main source of news has been deliberately misleading them.
Andrew: Yeah, and these people aren’t forced to buy the Prophet. The Prophet, presumably, is a business as well; they need to make money. If they’re losing customers, they’re going to be in big trouble. They don’t want to lose to The Quibbler.
Eric: [laughs] I will say, again, good for Xeno, because The Quibbler definitely made all the sales they were going to make on that piece. So to give the article a second life and get a very nice trip for you and your daughter off to Sweden out of it, that’s pretty cool.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: Well, and it didn’t even make the front page of the Daily Prophet, just to show you probably how red in the face they are about how wrong they got it. It’s pretty much buried several pages in, from what the chapter says. So we’re taken inside the hospital wing; everybody is recovering from their various injuries, and Harry is just having conversation. We get some good nuggets of information; we talked about how Luna and her dad are going to be able to go on vacation as a result of selling the article to the Daily Prophet. We learn that Flitwick was able to take care of that swamp that Fred and George created in, like, three minutes.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: But he left a bit of it as both a tribute, I think, to Fred and George, but also the fact that it’s a damn good bit of magic. And I think we’re going to see more of that as time goes on in the next couple of books, just how accomplished the two of them are.
Andrew: Yeah. I really loved that, that he left a little spot.
Micah: All right, I’ll talk about Umbridge, I guess. She’s in the hospital wing with the kids, and we learn that Dumbledore went into the forest and was able to retrieve her from the centaurs without much issue, apparently. But the quote about her says that “Her usually neat mousy hair was very untidy and there were bits of twig and leaf in it, but otherwise she seemed quite unscathed.” So based on this description – and she may have had some time to recover – do we think that anything really happened with the centaurs? I know we’ve put some theories out there.
Andrew: Something happened. I mean, she was temporarily changed after her experience in the Forbidden Forest. That said, I think she was by herself when Dumbledore found her, because if Dumbledore went in there no problem, I feel like the centaurs would have attacked him or been really pissed off if they saw him in there. So I just think she was by herself.
Eric: But he’s Dumbledore.
Laura: Yeah, I don’t know that they would have attacked him.
Eric: I think somehow he reasoned with them. I don’t know how you can calm group rage the way that… but if anybody can, it’s Dumbledore. I think it’s a mark of Dumbledore’s skill that he went in and came out without a scratch.
Micah: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Micah: I think it’s possible that he could have indirectly threatened them with Ministry action, saying that Umbridge is a high-ranking member of the Ministry, and that if she isn’t released, then x is going to happen.
Andrew: But do they care about things like that?
Eric: They don’t care about them from the human side of things, but if it meant difficulty for their herd, like deforestation or land movement… if it meant a war was coming a couple of years before a war is supposed to come, they probably would think twice about aggravating the situation.
Laura: I could also see Dumbledore approaching this and saying, “You will release her, and she won’t be any trouble to you anymore, because she’s leaving.” Because he’s already negotiated this with Fudge in the previous chapter.
Micah: That’s a good point, too.
Eric: As for what happened to Umbridge, something definitely happened. I think it’s something that’s invisible to a non-closed eye, but it is absolutely something that happened, and it’s weird to see Ron sort of delight in activating her PTSD when he makes the clop-clop sounds. Not Ron’s best moment. In fact, one of the worst.
Micah: But he’s also 15-16 years old at this time.
Eric: Sure.
Micah: And I don’t think he probably has the full context of what potentially could have happened to Umbridge, but I do think, again, you read through this book as an adult, versus maybe when we first read through it in our teens; the context is a lot different, right? Ron could be triggering her PTSD of what happened in the forest with the centaurs just by making those noises, and for a minute, maybe you do sympathize with Umbridge and what could have happened, because she’s freaked out by this.
Laura: Yeah, and I would just say to also bear in mind that, I mean, yeah, it’s not great, but Ron doing this doesn’t exist in a vacuum. I mean, this is the person who spent the entire year hindering their educations, who physically abused multiple students, and who ultimately was helping to prop up a Ministry that was willing to look the other way when Voldemort was back and actively building up to his second reign of terror.
Eric: Yeah, if I had to guess what we’re supposed to take from this chapter and what happens to Umbridge, it’s almost like the book is saying that she deserved it, because we get… I mean, later on Peeves is hitting her with a bag of chalk and a walking stick as she runs from the school. That’s incredibly violent. That’s mafia stuff. [laughs] It’s really bad. But like you said, Laura, she has spent the whole book sucking 114 times, by our count, and she has largely disarmed these children from being able to really face the terror of the world.
Micah: I think it also shows how sometimes you can be sympathetic for people despite everything that they’ve done previously, right?
Laura: Of course.
Andrew: Yeah, she’s still a human.
Micah: Yeah, despite how horrific her acts have been throughout this year, when she’s in the hospital wing and she’s going through these moments of freaking out, you may feel for her a little bit.
Eric: Yep. And she’s dissociating, too. She’s clearly had trauma; she’s still in shock from it.
Micah: And she’s been completely embarrassed, right? That is why she tries to sneak out when the final feast is going on; she doesn’t want to be seen by anybody. But as you said, Peeves makes sure that that is not the case. So Harry wraps up his conversations in the hospital wing, and through all of this – we kind of mentioned this earlier – he is feeling the loss of Sirius, and he just can’t find the right way to have the conversation with Hermione or with Ron or with anybody else, and so he says he’s going to go visit Hagrid. He doesn’t really want to go visit Hagrid, but he does anyway. And on the way, of course, he runs into Malfoy, and Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle are pissed about what happened at the Ministry. Harry somehow is responsible for what Lucius decided to do and for his career as a Death Eater; it’s all Harry’s fault. And I thought this was a comical moment, especially when Harry says, “I s’pose Lord Voldemort’s just a warm-up act compared to you three.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Malfoy makes it seem like… and what’s funny about this is what happens in Half-Blood Prince, so Malfoy does, in fact, kind of get back at Harry. But yeah, it’s just one of those moments where it’s Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle? Like, “You three are really going to be much of a match for me after I just escaped Voldemort for the fourth or fifth time?”
Andrew: Yeah. Well, that’s the thing, is they’re just mad that Harry beat Draco’s dad. That’s really what it comes down to. I’m shocked that Malfoy, frankly, is still allowed at Hogwarts when his father is a known Death Eater and just participated in this attack at the Ministry and is on Voldemort’s side. This seems very irresponsible. It’s not like Draco is the opposite of his father; he’s kind of just as bad as Lucius is. He supports his father completely.
Eric: Yeah, they have to be mad at somebody; be mad at themselves. They’re on the wrong side of the law on this. Their whole family is, and Crabbe and Goyle’s whole family is.
Laura and Micah: Yeah.
Laura: But I mean, I think about real life scenarios. Do we deny education to the children of serial killers? No.
Eric: Right.
Laura: Nor should we be able to. I think the child should be able to stand on their own merits, and as of this point, yeah, Malfoy is a pain in the ass, but he hasn’t done anything that would really warrant him being expelled.
Andrew: But he could relay information back to his father, maybe? Or other Death Eaters? I don’t know; this just feels very uncomfortable to me.
Laura: And we see those consequences in the next book, right? But we also ultimately see that Malfoy is all talk; when it comes down to it, he can’t do what he’s being asked to do.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, and his father is going to a Dementor-less Azkaban. That’s like going to the minimum security wing; you probably have a fair amount of game time and recreation. I just don’t… I think Lucius deserved worse for all of the behind-the-scenes things he was doing to fund and to further the goals of the Death Eaters during the last 15 years.
Micah: It’s a fair point. I think, too, that it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Dumbledore would want to keep an eye on Malfoy, especially given what has just happened with Kreacher, and that this is a family that is deep within Voldemort’s inner circle. So as we see in Half-Blood Prince, Snape keeps tabs on Draco for pretty much the entire book, and that information is invaluable to Dumbledore and to the Order, so I think that there’s probably a bit of that going on. But also, he’s not the only one who is the son or daughter of a Death Eater that’s at Hogwarts. There’s others that are there; Crabbe, Goyle… I’m probably missing a few others. But you can’t just expel, to Laura’s point, Draco for the sins of his dad. But I don’t think Harry is in any way responsible for what Lucius did. The blame being placed on Harry is a little bit misdirected; it should be pointed right at Lucius.
Eric: Right.
Micah: And hell, if he did his job at the Ministry, then there wouldn’t be this conversation happening right now.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: There wouldn’t be a Harry.
Micah: Yeah, exactly!
Eric: But it’s one of those things; Draco holds his father in such high regard at this point that his father can do no wrong or see no wrong, so it must be, “Oh, that mangy, wascally Harry Potter that’s ruined the plan once again.”
Micah: I don’t even… I’m not sure how high he holds his father in terms of regard. I think it’s more of his own personal embarrassment of what’s happened. He has to go and… he’s like the kingpin of Slytherin House right now, right? And his dad’s just been thrown in Azkaban. It’s not a good look for him.
Eric: Yeah, okay. That’s very fair.
Andrew: I like the idea that Dumbledore wants to keep his enemies closer.
Eric: Works out well for Dumbledore next year.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: But that’s exactly why he makes Snape tail Draco for the entirety of the next book.
Micah: We get a really great moment, though, not long after this encounter. I think Harry, if he decided to, was going to really knock out the three of them. But luckily for Draco, Snape shows up, but then luckily for Harry, McGonagall shows up, and McGonagall is back from St. Mungo’s. This was a really great exchange, I thought, between the two Heads of House, and Alexia wrote in to say on this week’s chapter,
“It was nice to see McGonagall and Snape interact. He seemed respectful towards her, and it was nice seeing him interacting with people other than Harry. Speaking of Harry, why does Harry ‘feel a rush of hatred towards Snape beyond anything he felt towards Malfoy’? Lucius was just trying to murder Harry and his friends in the Ministry! Snape has repeatedly saved Harry’s life countless times, including just now. Realistically, shouldn’t his rage and lack of forgiveness be directed at the Malfoys for orchestrating Sirius’s death? I can’t suspend my disbelief for this one.”
Andrew: Eh, he can be mad at multiple people at once.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: No, but I also wonder if it’s still the lingering feelings over how the Occlumency lessons went because they are one reason for Sirius’s death.
Eric: Yeah, and Snape’s goading of Sirius to leave the house.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: Harry is upset, but he’s not really looking inward at what really caused… because he’s grieving, he’s not capable of clear thought at the moment. More on that later.
Andrew: Yeah. Right, and just general years of prodding from Snape. It’s hard to suddenly start liking this guy.
Eric: Yeah. But I do love as well, to Alexia’s point, Snape and McGonagall acting civilly. They are Heads of Houses. And what I love is – Malfoy points this out – but there’s zero gems in the Gryffindor hourglass [laughs] because McGonagall has been gone from the school, so who else is going to give Gryffindor points? So McGonagall quickly restores those points, or some of them, for reasons like letting the world know that Voldemort is back, and she gives some to Ravenclaw for Luna and all that stuff. So maybe Gryffindor isn’t last in the House Cup this year. Maybe it’s still the Hufflepuffs who always seem to be unable to win.
Andrew: One more point on Snape: Does anybody look at that guy and say, “Yeah, I like him”?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: He’s got a very punchable face. Nobody likes Snape.
Eric: I don’t know.
Micah: Maybe Malfoy does. Draco. The Slytherins like him.
Andrew: Well, they’re unlikable too. They’ve got punchable faces too.
Micah: Peas in a pod, baby.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Yeah. I think it’s also hard for Harry… I mean, he’s so young; it’s hard for him to accept that somebody who has this visceral dislike towards him could be on his side, ultimately. It’s probably really difficult to parse for him at this point in his life. I think later we see that he makes peace with it, but now, especially in the wake of losing his godfather, who he and Snape tortured each other mercilessly the entire time they knew each other, I can see why he would have this rush of emotion. Sirius just died three days ago.
Eric and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: And I know, Laura, you love connecting the threads: I thought of the moment in Deathly Hallows when McGonagall and Snape are squaring off in the corridor, and very different set of circumstances here, but just to see how cordial they are with each other in this moment. They start off that way, of course, in Deathly Hallows, but then things escalate relatively quickly.
Laura: Yeah, this is a really interesting moment to lead us into what their relationship looks like in the later books.
Micah: So Harry continues to make the rounds, and I think Andrew or somebody mentioned this earlier, where it’s like – or maybe it was Laura – that you see just how things are happening, how things are going on despite what’s happened to Sirius, despite the trauma that Harry has been through. And it’s almost like… I thought of the end of a video game, when you beat the video game and you’re going around to all the different people.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I think Zelda, like, “Oh, there are the Gorons, and there are the Zoras,” and they’re all celebrating. That’s kind of what this is like.
Andrew: You saved it! You saved Hyrule!
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Micah: So Harry goes and visits Hagrid, and this is just kind of a really tough, painful conversation. Sirius comes up. Hagrid talks about how he’s known Sirius longer, and how Sirius would have done anything for Harry, and it’s just… Hagrid doesn’t have the tact, I don’t think, that Harry needs in this moment. He’s a little too rough.
Eric: I’ll disagree. He is a little brunt, sure, but I wouldn’t blame Hagrid for any of this, because ultimately, Harry is not ready to hear it, so Harry actively is like, “Oh, I’ve got to go visit Hermione and Ron in the hospital,” and he runs out. Because Hagrid is just telling him truth bombs; Hagrid is just telling him how it is. Harry is not ready to hear that Sirius would have preferred to go out in the blaze of glory that he did go out during, and anything that is pertaining to “Sirius would have wanted it this way” is just gone. So it’s not Hagrid’s fault that Harry is willfully pushing back on the truth. And I find it intriguing that Hagrid points out, once again, that he has known Sirius longer than Harry, because if you go back to Book 1, Chapter 1, Hagrid arrives on a flying motorbike that he got from who? Oh, his best buddy, Sirius Black. So there’s some backstory there that I really now need to know about.
Micah: I can see Hagrid riding a motorbike. He seems like Hell’s Angels’ type.
Eric: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. But what was their relationship like? And we don’t get it. We’re robbed of it because Harry wants to play uninterested and runs out.
Laura: Well, Harry is also in denial at this point.
Micah: Yeah, so I kind of have two questions with Harry now: Have we ever experienced this type of moment where he’s telling Hermione and Ron he needs to go see Hagrid; he’s telling Hagrid he needs to go see Hermione and Ron…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: He’s just trying to find a place to… he’s looking for something. I don’t know what that something is, but he’s just looking for resolution in a way. I’m not sure. And I wonder, could he use a motherly type figure in this moment?
Andrew: Maybe. Or just a therapist.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Here’s a weird thing: Anybody close enough with him to be like a motherly figure would probably say the same things that Hagrid is saying, that others are saying.
Andrew: Right, yeah.
Eric: That either “Sirius would have wanted this,” or “You’re going to be okay,” or “It’s not your fault.” But even Harry doesn’t know what he needs.
Micah: I think he just needs a hug. Somebody, give him a hug.
Andrew: He needs a hug, and he just needs to get talking. Just get talking with Hagrid, with Hermione, with Ron… whoever. They’ll all be able to help just by talking to them.
Micah: What do you think, Laura? The three dudes are talking here, but what do you think?
Laura: [laughs] Yeah, I was just ruminating on this because I’ve definitely found myself… obviously not in this exact situation, but definitely found myself in moments of grief being a little unsure of where to go or what to do, and knowing that I needed something but not being able to pinpoint quite what it was. And so I could really relate to Harry’s feeling of like he simultaneously wants to be around people, but also wants to be alone. Because none of these people are able to give him what he needs, because ultimately, he doesn’t relate to them as having had this kind of loss. And I think he gets that in Luna; she’s the only person whose loss is reflective of Harry’s, so I think… I mean, really, the figure he needs is Luna, and he figures it out sort of unintentionally.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Micah: The last convo he has before departing Hogwarts is with Luna, yeah. But before that – and I think this just elevates what you were talking about, Laura – the moment when he discovers the mirror that Sirius had given him, and now he thinks that he can still connect with Sirius. Sirius has the other mirror; regardless of where he is, they can have that connection, but then he realizes, “Well, maybe he didn’t have it with him when he fell through the veil,” so that’s not an option. But it’s also just the pain and realization that he could have contacted Sirius at any point throughout this year, this semester, since he came back from holiday, and he just forgot about it.
Andrew: Yeah, I was just thinking of a big, deep, echoey “Nooooo!” when he comes to this realization.
Eric: [laughs] Very Darth Vader-esque.
Andrew: This would’ve solved a lot of problems.
Eric: Yeah. Well, she’s only going to reveal this when it hurts the most – she, meaning J.K. Rowling – and that’s just how it works. Harry is like, “Of course this happened. Of course that happened.” And it just… everything comes together in this. This is actually a good wrap-up chapter for a book, I think. But it just hurts, because every new thing we learn is in some way colored by the fact that we’ve just lost someone real close to Harry.
Micah: Yeah, and Harry is still searching for answers, and he thinks that he can get them from a ghost. He said, “Well, if anybody can tell me about this, it’ll be Nearly Headless Nick.” He ends up finding Nick, and they have this whole conversation, and what I found interesting is that Nick was anticipating the conversation. Clearly, this is not his first go-around with students.
Andrew: Right, that’s what he says. He hears it from a lot of people.
Eric: I felt really bad for Nick in this moment.
Andrew: Yeah. Speaking of therapists, he’s like a therapist. A death therapist.
Eric: Yeah! A grief counselor.
Andrew: “Let me talk to you about death.”
Eric: Ahh. And the worst part of it is feeling like he owes it to students to talk. He clearly doesn’t want to be having this conversation, and he even tells Harry he can’t have this conversation, but Harry persists nevertheless. But I think it’s like he feels he owes it to a fellow Gryffindor – because he is the Gryffindor ghost – to actually talk about it.
Andrew: And then Nick reveals that you can actually choose to be a ghost? And he said that he chose to become one because he was afraid of death, and that kind of reminded me of when you get your driver’s license, you volunteer to be an organ donor or not. When do you choose that, I wonder?
Laura: Are you imagining some DMV-style registration desk beyond the veil, like, “Would you like to move on or become a ghost?”
Andrew: [laughs] Yes. “And when you die, would you like to become a ghost?”
Eric: “Okay, we’re about to take your photo.”
Andrew: Would you guys become ghosts?
Laura: No.
Eric: Depends on how I died. If I die tomorrow tripping down a flight of stairs, I’m going to become a ghost, because that’s a shitty way to go.
Andrew: Laura is like, “Get me off this earth. I do not want to be a ghost and live here any longer.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: No. Y’all, for real, I watched the International Space Station go over last week, and as it went over, I literally shouted, “Take me with you!”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: “Get me out of here!”
Eric: Oh my God.
Micah: But yeah, I mean, Nick regrets the decision almost, right? Because it’s final. He’s made this decision that he is going to be a ghost at Hogwarts for eternity, presumably, and yet there seems to be something more, and Luna alludes to that in her conversation with Harry. But Nick just can’t provide Harry with the answers that he wants. And Nick seems to think that Sirius would indeed have made the choice to go on; maybe it’s just knowing of him from his time at Hogwarts. But it’s a tough conversation, because Harry is just looking for something that will connect him to Sirius, that will give him at least one more time for the two of them to interact with each other, and it’s just not happening. It’s tough.
Eric: I think Nick can’t stop minimizing his own decision to be here on this earth. He can’t stop criticizing himself for it. I think he just sees Sirius as this brave warrior; I think that’s exactly why he says to Harry that Sirius would have moved on, because to stay… he views his own choice to stay as an act of cowardice.
Micah: Totally.
Laura: Yeah. I was wondering… this feeling that Harry conveys in this moment; he just wants to talk to Sirius one more time. Have any of us ever felt this?
Eric: I wanted to talk to J.K. Rowling one more time before she became problematic.
Micah: Ugh.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: Yeah, I think so. I mean, because especially if you’re left in what you feel is a situation where things weren’t on the best… well, not even the best of terms, just that you always want that one more conversation, or that one more interaction if you lose somebody that is close to you. You want to feel like the terms that you left things on were positive and that there wasn’t any sort of animosity that existed. Think there’s a bit of regret sometimes.
Andrew: [emotionally] That’s why you can’t take a single day for granted.
Laura: No, for real. I mean, getting real real here, but this so resonated with me because I actually had a situation when I was younger where somebody, an adult in my life that I really cared about, one day for some reason the thought popped in my head; I was like, “Oh, I should call her,” and I didn’t because I was busy, and I was like, “Oh, I’ll just catch up with her later,” and a few days later, she died.
Andrew: Oh, gosh.
Laura: And that haunted me. Like, oh my God, I would have given anything to be able to turn back the time and make that phone call. So I definitely… ugh, I feel what Harry is feeling here. It sucks. This is also a connecting the threads moment between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix. Harry’s relationship with Sirius and his entire arc in these books is punctuated by loss. From the very beginning, Harry gets, like, 30 minutes in Prisoner of Azkaban where he thinks, “We’re going to clear Sirius’s name, we’re going to turn Pettigrew in, and then I’m going to get to go live with my godfather.” And then Peter Pettigrew escapes, and that literally all goes out the window. So Harry, from the moment he meets Sirius, their relationship is punctuated by loss. And then in Order of the Phoenix, we see this just utter disappointment and despair from Harry when he feels like he lost his godfather all over again when he realizes he’s not going to be able to see him in the mirror; he’s not going to be able to see him as a ghost. So it’s really kind of a sad thing. I mean, everything about Sirius’s role in the books is about loss: loss of his freedom, loss of his autonomy, his youth, his relationship with his godson… it’s really quite sad.
Andrew: Yeah, it is.
Eric: How interesting is it that in a few short weeks or less, Dumbledore is going to come upon the Resurrection Stone? That’s exactly what Harry would need right now.
Micah: That’s why Luna is there to save the day.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Yeah, good for Luna, honestly. She ends up being exactly what Harry needed.
Micah: She is, and it’s an interesting moment between the two of them, because Luna has been portrayed in a very specific light throughout this entire book, and I think in this moment… she does have the ability to have this unfiltered truth that comes out of her mouth, but I think that in this moment, she’s just very real and very honest with Harry and in a way only she can be, and that’s just how her character is constructed. But yeah, it kind of finally calms Harry. I don’t know that it provides him with full resolution, but finally here, after going around and talking to half the school, he’s found somebody who can relate to him, and I think that’s what he’s been searching for for this entire chapter. He needs somebody who can sympathize with him.
Andrew: Right. And the best part about this is that Luna has been painted as Loony Luna – she’s the weirdo, she’s the outcast – and then Harry finally realizes, “Oh, I should have been paying attention to this person a lot closer, because I’m actually able to relate with her pretty deeply.”
Micah: Absolutely. And that line that she has about “You heard them just beyond the veil, didn’t you?” She’s saying, “Look, these people aren’t truly gone; they’re just gone from this plane of existence, if that’s what you believe,” and I think that provides a level of comfort for Harry.
Eric: It’s hope, too.
Micah: It’s hope. It’s some form of rationalizing what he experienced in the Department of Mysteries.
Andrew: Right.
Laura: And it’s somebody who actually understands death; I think that’s a big comfort to Harry. I mean, when he was in the Department of Mysteries and he heard those voices coming from the veil, Hermione was like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. There are no voices. Get away from that.” So to be able to connect with somebody… the same person who he found out can see Thestrals, right? He has been able to see something tangible that is related to death that others in his life cannot see, so having this moment to connect with somebody who has had those experiences, I agree, brings a great deal of relief for him. He even notes that his stomach feels a little less knotted up after he talks to Luna.
Micah: And I think that it’s just one of those moments that forges their friendship and bonds them in a way that maybe he can’t bond right now with Hermione or with Ron, and I think then that speaks to some of the unity that we see moving forward in future books.
Andrew: Yeah. And that’s life, right? I mean, you meet new people who help you in different ways.
Eric: Yeah, exactly. I mean, Hermione and Ron both still have both their parents. Luna has lost her mother; she tells Harry the story right here, and that alone sets Luna apart from Hermione and Ron for Harry.
Andrew: Right, just like seeing the Thestrals. Harry appreciates knowing somebody else who can see them.
Eric: Exactly.
Micah: And just one other thing: I think, Andrew, you have the note in here about finally getting the confirmation of what is being studied in the Death Chamber?
Andrew: Yeah, Nick says that they study death in the Department of Mysteries, which seems to confirm the purpose of the veil room, right?
Eric: Or the brain room. Those things are lethal. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, I think so. And I think that’s what Luna is alluding to when she’s talking about the voices and the veil and the fact that they’re just beyond reach. And so Harry’s year at Hogwarts ends on a little bit more of an upbeat note, I think, after this conversation with Luna. It’s obviously still very much overwhelmed by what’s happened with Sirius. But they get on the train, they head back to King’s Cross, and we get to see a few more characters before this book wraps up. We see an incident on the train; Dumbledore’s Army coming to the defense of Harry. Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle try to stick it to him yet again, but I thought this is a defining moment. And again, I know we keep talking about the implications for future books, but the fact that Dumbledore’s Army does come to his aid, and he’s forged these bonds with Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff and the other Houses, is extremely important.
Eric: Absolutely. This inner House unity thing, this is that in practice, and they’re behaving as though they’re a functional single group to defeat Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. They turn them into slugs and stick them on the luggage rack. It’s a pretty weird way to spend your trip back to King’s Cross.
Micah: Definitely. And J.K. Rowling also lays the groundwork for future relationships. It’s established that Harry really doesn’t want to have anything more to do with Cho. Ginny, for a brief moment, is thought to be single, but then I think lets Ron know that she’s now dating Dean. Ron makes eyes at Harry when they’re talking about Ginny being single, so the groundwork is being laid; that’s all I’m saying.
Andrew: Ron makes eyes at Harry?
Micah: Yeah, he does.
Andrew: Not in a romantic way. [laughs]
Micah: No, no, no. In like a, “Hey, buddy, I kind of wouldn’t mind if it was you.”
Laura: Except he totally would.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Ginny still looking for love. Maybe one day she’ll find the right person.
Eric: Maybe.
Laura: Ugh, why? Why is Ginny a vehicle for romance? The entire time we know her. First she has a crush on Harry and she can barely speak to him, and then the only way she’s able to move on from that and become a functioning human being is by dating somebody else, and then after that, she’s always dating somebody. Sorry, this bothers me.
Eric: These are the roles that society has provided for women in literature.
Laura: Yeah, it’s just a little disappointing that a woman wrote this.
Eric: Yeah, that I’ll agree with.
Micah: Going in a little bit of a different… it is a nice wrap-up chapter in the sense you get Crookshanks, you get Hedwig, you get Pig; all these different characters are mentioned. And then we finally get back to King’s Cross, and several members of the Order are there along with the Weasleys, and it’s just this really nice moment for Harry that I think he probably could have utilized almost immediately after what happened to Sirius.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: He has a conversation with Moody, he briefly talks with Lupin, with the Weasley twins, and they make it very clear that the Dursleys better stay in line moving forward, or they will take action. And I wonder, do you think this was on Dumbledore’s orders? Do you think…? Dumbledore just had this whole conversation with Harry, feels really bad, and says, “Okay, well, if I can fix one thing in the immediate future, it’s maybe to make Harry’s life at Privet Drive a little bit better.”
Andrew: Yeah, and I think it’s also to remind Harry that he is loved. He is being looked out for, he is cared for, and he has a family. And I don’t mean the Dursleys; I mean Moody and Lupin and Tonks and everybody else there.
Eric: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Andrew: And that’s what Harry notes to himself.
Eric: Yeah, in the absence of Sirius, he has all these other people stepping up to be his protector.
Andrew: Right. Sirius isn’t his only family.
Eric: Right.
Laura: What I like about this, too, is this is very reminiscent of the end of Prisoner of Azkaban in terms of intimidating the Dursleys at King’s Cross. So at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban when Harry greets Uncle Vernon, he’s telling him about his godfather, and he’s like, “Yeah, he’s a convicted murderer. He broke out of wizard prison and he’s on the run, but he wants to make sure that I’m happy.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: And then here at the end of this, you literally have the entire Order being like, “If we hear that Harry is unhappy, you will have us to answer to.”
Andrew: [in a mafioso accent] “You’ll have us to answer to, capiche?” My really bad Godfather impression.
Laura: [laughs] It was a nice full circle moment.
Micah: Oh, yeah. And I like the whole “If he doesn’t check in every three days…”
Andrew: Oh, yeah. That’s a good one. That’s a good trick.
Micah: “… we’ll be on your front door step.” They should just put Lupin outside, and… I don’t know. I was going to say something about the moon and him transforming and scaring the hell out of them.
Eric: Oh, God.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Keep him in the backyard or something.
Eric: Oh my God. With a little chain around him and a little peg in the ground.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: I’m glad you brought up Lupin, though, because he tells Harry to keep in touch, and that’s just something that Harry isn’t going to do. But it feels real nice that there’s this verbalized wish that Lupin has to be able to talk to Harry, and even though we don’t really fully realize this for a year and a half or two years, Lupin is the closest thing that Harry really has to, I think, the kind of comfort Harry is looking for.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Eric: So it’s nice that Lupin put that energy into the world.
Micah: He’s the truest, I would say, father figure that Harry has throughout the series. I always look at Sirius as more of a fun uncle than a parental figure. It would have been nice for them to have a conversation about Sirius; I think it would have helped Harry quite a bit, so it’s unfortunate that doesn’t happen. But that wraps up our Chapter by Chapter discussion of Order of the Phoenix.
Andrew: Okay, so let’s get to the Umbridge Suck Count. Currently stands at 114. This is our last chance to give her some more strikes.
Micah: All right.
Andrew: So this first one is for making Dumbledore do extra work his first day back.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Wow. Wow.
Micah: I really had to dig here. I’m sorry.
Andrew: No, that’s okay.
Eric: These are extra cruel. These are just bad. [laughs]
Andrew: This one is also very cruel: for taking up important real estate in the hospital wing.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Eric: Oh my God.
Andrew: [laughs] You know what? It’s the final time we’re doing this. Why not?
Eric: I know, I know.
Andrew: All bets are off. For trying to sneak out before anyone could say goodbye.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: And so…
Micah: Wait.
Andrew: What?
Micah: I think we should give her one more…
Andrew: Uh-oh.
Micah: … just for her entire role in Order of the Phoenix. I think that deserves at least one more. This is the last chapter.
Andrew: Okay.
[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]
Andrew: So that means Dolores Umbridge sucked 118 times in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. Congratulations, Dolores! You really sucked.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: That’s an average of, like, three times per chapter.
Micah: Oh, wow.
Eric: [laughs] Seems about right.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Okay, let’s move to MVP of the Week.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Nearly Headless Nick – never thought I’d say that – for his lessons to Harry on death.
Eric: I’m going to give my MVP to readers everywhere for finishing this, at times, difficult to get through…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: … very angsty book, because I know that’s what I wanted after I finished this book, was a darned metal.
Andrew: It’s like Times‘ Person of the Year; that one year they said, “The Person of the Year is YOU!”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: And there was a mirror on the cover.
Eric: Oh, man. I forgot about that.
Micah: All right, I gave mine to Luna Lovegood for reasons already stated.
Laura: And I gave mine to the entire DA for taking out Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle.
Rename the Chapter
Andrew: Okay, and now let’s rename this chapter: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “Dumbledore’s Final Full Year at Hogwarts.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: That’s all I could think about while I was reading this. I was like, “Damn, this is going to be his last farewell speech,” right? Because there’s no… he doesn’t get to the closing feast beforehand in Half-Blood Prince.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Just really, really sad. This is his last year at Hogwarts, full year.
Eric: I renamed it Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “Fudge’s Fudges.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “Nowhere to Turn.”
Laura: And I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “Denial and Acceptance.”
Favorite Characters in Order of the Phoenix
Andrew: Okay, and since this is the final chapter, we thought we should do a couple quick round-up segments here. Let’s talk about our favorite character in Order of the Phoenix, each of our favorite characters and why, and we can just go around the table here quickly. Mine is Umbridge, which sounds messed up, but she is just – as we’ve discussed over the past year – the worst villain.
Micah: Delicious.
Andrew: And I just remember reading this for the first time and feeling like she was unlike any other character in the series that we had seen so far. She just causes so much upheaval at Hogwarts that, it sounds sick to say, but it was just very refreshing to see her wield all this power at the school and cause so much harm. Of course, I’m not enjoying it; I’m not getting pleasure out of it, but I just loved how different it was.
Eric: Yeah, it’s extremely eye-opening. And kind of getting back to the debate we did whether who’s worse, Umbridge or Voldemort, Umbridge is working within the system to do all this. So it actually serves as a huge eye-opener about, I’ll just say it, how fascism can grow, and authoritarianism, and all that crap that Umbridge is peddling really works through a lens of what should be polite society.
Andrew: Yeah, and I just remember feeling so much rage while reading what she was doing.
Micah: Didn’t you say you used to hit your bed or something to that effect, Andrew?
Andrew: Eh, I don’t think so.
Micah: I thought on an episode…
Eric: I once said that when you read Umbridge, you really want to punch your pillow.
Micah: Maybe that was it.
Andrew: [laughs] We should each punch a pillow 118 times once we finish recording today.
Eric: [laughs] We’ll fluff it out nice and good. I gave my favorite character of Order – everybody’s going to be real surprised by this; it’s not Ginny, though – it’s to Sirius Black. I feel like he’s a flawed person, he’s a divisive kind of person, but in the end, I think he probably lived his last life doing what he thought was right or would contribute to a cause, and he also died in a really unique way. Sirius Black’s death is one of those not cut-and-dry deaths, and for that, I kind of love it, the idea – because he went full body into the veil – that he’s still there somewhere, or they can’t even bury him. So I just find it to be… although I wish he had survived, I find it to be a really interesting way to go out.
Micah: Interesting. I decided to go with Luna Lovegood. I think that she’s a strong dose of unfiltered truth, and at times, unexpected comedy. She’s a new friend and an important connection to Ravenclaw, but she also represents seeing the world through a different perspective, and I think that that is much needed, given all that’s happening in the wizarding world in this book.
Laura: Agreed. I think it’s so interesting that Harry starts out this book with a particular woman in Ravenclaw that he wants to get close to…
[Eric laughs]
Laura: … and it ends up not being Cho Chang, but rather Luna Lovegood, and it’s not romantic either.
Micah: No, that’s a really great point.
Laura: I would have to say Neville Longbottom. I think we see him have some glow-ups in this book, which is really great for his development, but we also learn about his and Harry’s parallel destinies, and I just find that so fascinating because we learn that Neville is not just there to be another student and add more color, more context to Hogwarts, and I think it would be really interesting to do an analysis of the first four books to see if there were any hints that this was coming, so maybe that’s something we can do in the future.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Andrew: That’d be great.
Lessons Learned from Order of the Phoenix
Andrew: Okay, and now I thought we should each share a big lesson from Order of the Phoenix. The one that stands out to me is that the truth matters. We see this whole book, obviously, the Daily Prophet and the Ministry sticking their head in the sand concerning Voldemort being back, and ignoring the truth causes major consequences. There’s a cost to lies. And in this particular case, we could have had a very different book if everyone was in agreement that Voldemort was back after what happened at the end of Goblet of Fire. And actually, I would love to read a fanfic like that, just this whole book with the Ministry working with Dumbledore and I guess Harry to track down Voldemort. That would have been so cool.
Eric: I think it’s referred to sometimes on the Internet as competence porn…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: … of just like, “Man, they’re getting it done.” That’s why people like Sorkin shows.
Andrew: Right, it feels good to watch everybody working together, is what you’re saying.
Eric: Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew: And of course, this is a lesson that is really important in the real world as well.
Eric: I drove my big lesson back to Sirius, and it’s just that you never know how your words in a moment of passion will be received, talking specifically about Kreacher and how Sirius says, “Get out,” but he doesn’t really mean it, and it ends up causing his own death. Just live with as few regrets as possible. Treat others with empathy and kindness. If that’s one thing Sirius could not do, his failing, it’s something I think we can all learn from.
Micah: It’s interesting to me that you chose Sirius for that because I thought you were going to go with Snape, because of what he says to Lily.
Eric: Ahh, right. I think that…
Micah: But it works for both.
Eric: Yeah, in that way they’re connected, and that could even… that bolsters my claim that this is a lesson from the book, so thank you.
Laura: Mine is to not assume that titles or positions of authority necessarily mean that someone’s motives or decision-making are sound or correct. I think that this can apply, of course, to the Ministry, right? We very much see that we can’t necessarily trust the Ministry just because they’re a government entity, and that you don’t have to accept something that you think is wrong just because it’s coming from a government official. I think this can also apply to Dumbledore. Really, up until this point in the series, Dumbledore has been the one who can do no wrong, the one who we view as being all-knowing, sort of omniscient. He’s our God-like character; he’s the one that everyone thinks of first when they’re thinking of “Who could know the answer to this?” or “Who could know what to do?” And we see how that fails Harry in this book, because Dumbledore puts so much stock in his own confidence that what he’s doing is the right approach, and it ends up being the absolutely wrong approach. So to me, it would be to say it’s okay to question things.
Andrew: Love that.
Micah: Yeah. And I went with something that’s definitely clichéd, but it goes back to when I was talking about Luna earlier, and I think that’s just to be yourself. I think she is so unapologetically herself throughout the entire course of Order of the Phoenix, and even moving forward, in the sense that she doesn’t care what people think of her, she doesn’t care what she wears, she doesn’t care how she looks, she doesn’t care what she says… and she has strong convictions, the things that she believes in. And yeah, she may be a little loony, but she’s herself, and she never wavers from that. And I think that speaks true for a lot of people; I know a lot of people really enjoyed the character of Luna throughout the course of the series, but particularly Order of the Phoenix. I know it’s what drew Evanna Lynch to the role and to the character of Luna. And I think that this whole concept of just being yourself is something we see throughout the fandom and the community, and I think she’s the greatest representation of that.
Andrew: Great.
Eric: Well said.
Andrew: Great answers, everybody.
Eric: Yeah, I’m proud of us.
Andrew: That was a nice way to wrap up this book. And like we said, Chapter by Chapter is now over! You can see our complete archive on MuggleCast.com; if you go there, you’ll see right at the top there’s a Chapter by Chapter link, and we have every single chapter linked out, so you can go back and listen to any chapter you do desire. So what’s next for MuggleCast? Next week is our 15th anniversary, so we’ll be spending the episode celebrating the Harry Potter fandom and looking back on the show. That’ll be a lot of fun. And then after that, we’ll start branching out into a variety of Harry Potter discussion topics. We’re going to discuss the books collectively; we’re going to do character discussions; we’re going to do fandom discussions; we’re going to go into our mailbag and find interesting questions from listeners. We’re really excited for this next “chapter,” ha ha, of MuggleCast, because…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Chapter 39.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, we’re going to start making up chapters so we can fill this show with stuff.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: No, but we’re really excited for this next chapter, because you’re going to get something entirely different every week, and we’re really looking forward to planning out these discussions. I think it’s going to be really refreshing for both us as hosts and you all as listeners, so look forward to that. And if you have any questions that you want us to answer, maybe some bigger discussion topics, feel free to send them in – MuggleCast@gmail.com – or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. We have a bunch of ideas ourselves, and then we have a bunch of ideas in these surveys that we’ve sent out to listeners. So there’s just this treasure trove of material that we’re going to dive into that will keep us busy for years and years. And really, thank you to all of our listeners, because you guys give us so many great questions to tackle, as you all see in our Muggle Mail segment, that really, we could never possibly ever run out of things to discuss, and that’s thanks in part to not only the listeners, but also just the depth of this story.
Quizzitch
Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: We had sort of an interesting question last week: What was the last word of Book 5? It’s not “scar.”
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: And it is actually the word “wake.” Harry is bobbing along in Dudley’s wake. Correct answers were submitted by Hermione’s Unicorn, Jeff Skellington, Darren Johnson, Sup Sarahhh, Caitlin the Greatlin, Courtney, Dapper, Sydney, The Awesome Animagus, ReeseWithoutHerSpoon, Ferrax, Robbie, Megan, Andrea, and Jason King! So guys, for next week we have a Quizzitch first, at least that I can remember, and it’s kind of inspired by Quizzitch Live. It’s going to be a multiple choice question.
Andrew: Oooh!
Laura: Interesting.
Eric: It is: How many times does the word “grim” appear in Book 5, including in Grimmauld Place? So we’ve talked about how “grim” shows up.
Micah: Wow.
Eric: There’s Sirius; every time you see him, he’s looking grim, or someone’s putting on a grim smile. Ton of it. J.K. Rowling really used this as a device to possibly foreshadow Sirius’s grim ending. So again, how many times does “grim” appear in Book 5? Here are your multiple choice answers: A, is it between 50 and 79 times? Is it B, between 80 and 119 times? Is it C, between 120 and 149 times for “grim”? Or is it D, in excess of 150 times? How many “grim”s do we think J.K. Rowling could have fit into this book? Book 5.
Andrew: These are all crazy high.
Eric: I know. [laughs]
Andrew: I don’t know.
Micah: But just to be clear, “grim” can be part of another word, correct? It doesn’t…?
Eric: It can be in “Grimmauld Place.”
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Micah: So either “grim” or “Grimmauld Place,” correct?
Andrew: Or Grimace. Does the Ronald McDonald character Grimace appear in this book at any point? Because that would be one too.
Eric: I’m not sure about that. Does Harry go to the…?
Micah: McDonald’s?
Andrew: He does get a Big Mac. Oh no, that’s a Whopper, so he doesn’t speak to Grimace…
Eric: Yeah, yeah. [trails off, then with renewed vigor] Submit your answer over on Twitter to us at MuggleCast, hashtag Quizzitch!
Andrew: Also give us a follow while you’re there. We are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. By the way, you’ve got to check out our social media this week, because we posted this awesome TBT in celebration of the publication anniversary of Deathly Hallows. We threw it back to Episode 101, from the morning after we all read the book, and we were reacting to the cover in particular!
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: And it’s a really great clip, so please check that out. Also, if you like what we do, we would love your support on Patreon; it is the reason that this show is a weekly podcast. And to thank you, you’ll receive some magical benefits in return, including a personalized video “Thank you” message from one of the four of us, our twice monthly bonus MuggleCast installments, the ability to listen live as we record, and so much more. Again, that’s at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you, everybody who supports us there; we greatly appreciate it. And that’s all for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everybody.
Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.