Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #719, There’s Something About Albus (OOTP Chapter 37, The Lost Prophecy)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter for 20 years and counting. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’ve been your Harry Potter friends for all this time, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And this week, grab the nearest expensive-looking trinket and hurl it at Dumbledore, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 37, “The Lost Prophecy.”
News
Andrew: But first, some TV show-related news. Well, look at this! Further casting announcements have arrived, and Warwick Davis, who played Flitwick in the Harry Potter films, is returning as Flitwick in the Harry Potter TV show. Sprout and other roles were also cast. Those announcements came on Back to Hogwarts Day, September 1. Before we get to the other casting announcements, let’s talk about Warwick Davis. This was a pretty big surprise, right?
Eric: Yeah, I was not expecting this. I don’t know if we had done a poll or a survey of who, if anybody, would be coming back. I’m choosing to be excited about this because it’s going to mean more time with Flitwick and more time with his Flitwick, who I liked in the movies, but there’s just not… you don’t really have the time to spend some time with him.
Laura: I think I’m fine with it, so long as we’re actually going to get more character focus. There are so many great moments with the Hogwarts professors that did not make the cut for the movies, and I think particularly in Order of the Phoenix, Flitwick has some great moments that I would love to see Max’d, so we’ll see if they do it. If it’s more of repeat of same, then I’ll have different thoughts.
Micah: As a Ravenclaw, I do feel somewhat conflicted about this, and the reason why I say that is because I feel as if cameos are one thing, but playing the exact same role… this TV series is supposed to be something that’s completely different and separate from what the movies were, and you’re casting the exact same Head of House for Ravenclaw as you did in the eight Harry Potter films, and he was in most of them, whether he was playing Flitwick or he was playing Griphook. And I see there’s some questions in the Discord as to whether or not he’s going to reprise the role of Griphook. No, he’s not; it was announced that Leigh Gill will be taking on the role of Griphook in the TV show. But I do wonder, though – Eric, you mentioned this just a few minutes ago – how many people were approached? And there can’t be too many that fit that category, where you could go back to them and ask them to reprise a role, because…
Eric: That’s a good point, because their age difference.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Andrew: Well, and the other thing is that Warwick Davis is a little person. He’s playing a very unique role; there’s not a lot of people who could take on this role. So maybe they thought, “If we’re going to cast somebody from the films, let’s get somebody whose character might be harder to recast.” And we also know Warwick has been a champion of the Harry Potter fandom and the series for a really long time, and I think that must be a factor too.
Eric: Yeah, well, actually, so he’s been an advocate for little people. He founded Little People UK, and he’s made sure that they get representation in media. And in fact, his whole goal has been to prevent Hollywood from using all CGI in little characters and different characters, like the Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs that was all CGI dwarfs. Literally, this is what we’re trying to prevent here, and I think that is where Warwick’s advocacy has been lately. So it’s nice to see. I think with casting him, it will also mean that other little people get into roles in this series, because I can’t see him standing for anything less, is what I would suggest. So that’s kind of why I feel good about this. It’s like, okay, so I think he’ll continue to advocate and continue to shape the choices being made behind the scenes.
Andrew: But this almost is a double-edged sword, because if you’re advocating, why are you taking a role you already had? Why not give it to somebody else? [laughs]
Eric: Well, there is that that I’ve seen too. It’s like, “Oh, if you want to get people to get roles, why are you taking the best roles?”
Andrew: Another point I want to bring up is that this came as – I’m sure the three of you have also seen – there’s been a lot of talk online about “Why do we need a Harry Potter TV show?” Chris Columbus, who directed the first two movies, brought up this point in a recent interview. People have been looking at the photos of new Hagrid and previous Hagrid and wondering, “Why are we doing this again if they’re just going to look the same?” So I think the timing of this announcement in particular was really bad. They maybe should have waited to share this Warwick Davis news, because this is doing no favors in convincing people that there’s a reason to redo the series. Now, to fans like us, we know why they can reboot it and have a good reason to. There’s going to be a good five hours of additional storytelling per book. That’s a huge difference! That’s a huge win for Harry Potter fans. But most people are just comparing pictures so far and being like, “I’m not seeing anything new here.”
Micah: I love Warwick Davis. He’s been on the show multiple times. As mentioned, he is a huge part of the Harry Potter fan community, and I’m sure he’ll do an amazing job reprising this role, but I’ll go back to what I said earlier: I think there’s a difference between making a cameo and taking on the same role that you did before. I think back only very recently to a show like Wednesday, where you had cameos from Christina Ricci and Christopher Lloyd…
Laura: Right.
Micah: … where it adds a level of excitement to know that you’re bringing back these characters who played Wednesday and Fester Addams respectively. You could have done maybe something similar with somebody like Warwick Davis; how he would have shown up, I don’t necessarily know, but this will lend itself – Andrew, like you were saying – to the argument that, “Well, why are we doing this again, if we’re just rinsing and repeating in a lot of the same areas that we did before?” And we criticize because we care, right? At the end of the day.
Andrew: [emotionally] We want the best for our baby.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: As I said, Warwick did an amazing job the first time around, and I’m sure he’ll do a fantastic job with the TV show.
Andrew: This locks him in for another 30 years on the pop culture convention circuit, by the way.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: He’s set for life at this point.
Laura: Smart.
Micah: He’s 55. He’s not that old.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Laura: Totally. I just wonder if we’re going to get an abrupt wardrobe change partway through.
Andrew: Oh, I hope not.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Let’s get that right this time.
Eric: Well, Laura, it would be hilarious if they actually keep his makeover between years two and three.
Laura: Oh my gosh.
Eric: But no, what I was thinking about this was they have to choose, right? They’re either going to have young… I don’t want to say… is svelte the right word? Formal-looking Flitwick, or that wizened, old, squeaky professor.
Andrew: I vote wizened.
Eric: I think the only descriptor… yeah, you think they’re going to do the wizened, Andrew?
Andrew: That’s what I would prefer, personally. I never liked that remake.
Eric: Honestly, I kind of agree with you. They must have just wanted to save makeup time in the later films by giving him that…
Micah: Well, they also made him the choir master, right? And I think that also…
Laura: Right.
Eric: There were some anomalies. I think the only descriptor in the books is that he’s small. I really don’t think it’s described what race he might be. Because the older Flitwick that we got in the first two movies doesn’t entirely look fully human, it’d be interesting to see where they go with the design and the look and the feel of Professor Flitwick.
Andrew: So let’s look at the other cast members who were announced. Elijah Oshin will play Dean Thomas, Finn Stephens will play Vincent Crabbe, William Nash will play Gregory Goyle, Sirine Saba will play Professor Pomona Sprout… [laughs]
Eric: My Head of House! Yay!
Micah: Nobody cares. Next.
Eric: Aw.
Micah: I’m just kidding. [laughs]
Andrew: Richard Durden will play Binns! Bríd Brennan will play Madam Poppy Pomfrey. And I think it was mentioned a few minutes ago, Leigh Gill will play Griphook, so Warwick will not be double dipping this time.
Eric: Let’s talk about Richard Durden as Profethor… Professor. I almost said “Profethor.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Cuthbert Binns! Professor Binns.
Micah: Who had money? We talked about this, what was it, last episode? Or two episodes ago?
Eric: Was it?
Micah: Where we said, “Who’s going to be the first character that was in the Harry Potter books that didn’t make it into the movies, that was going to be cast in the TV show?”
Eric: So ring a bell! It’s Professor Binns. Whoever had money on that, collect your prize backstage.
Andrew: Who was it? Was it you, Micah?
Micah: We didn’t pick.
Andrew: Oh, nobody said? Ohhh.
Micah: They beat us to it.
Eric: We were in the middle of saying, “Hey, we should do this,” and it hadn’t quite materialized. Ugh.
Andrew: That’s exciting. I mean, these types of announcements alone are pretty big news, I feel. Finally, we’re going to get adaptations of these characters.
Eric: Here’s what alarms me, though: We got the casting announcement for Professor Binns before we got the casting announcement for Peeves. Professor Peeves. Are they not going to cast Peeves?
Micah: Sure they will.
Laura: No way. They have to have Peeves this time.
Andrew: I wouldn’t read into that.
Eric: Thank you. They have to, right? They actually have to.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: Because it came so close. There were screen tests with Peeves in the first movie.
Micah: It’s a slow rollout of casts.
Eric: But you would think, if they’re trying to wow us, they would announce the casting… I mean, Peeves has to be in the show.
Micah: I mean, Eric, who’s more exciting than Professor Binns?
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Well, maybe Peeves will be a surprise casting announcement. We’ve heard rumors – I don’t know if these are remotely credible – but we’ve heard rumors that they’re going to keep the actor playing Voldemort under wraps, so maybe they’re going to keep some others under wraps, too, and Peeves could be one of them.
Laura: Oh, maybe it’s the same actor.
Andrew: We saw them attempt to do that with Grindelwald in the Fantastic Beasts series. [laughs] It could be the same actor?
Laura: Yeah, I was going to say, what if it’s the same actor playing Voldemort and Peeves?
Andrew: Yeah. I would like to pat myself on the back for something. So two weeks ago, we were talking about the casting of the Weasleys, and I said, “Maybe they’re announcing the Weasley kids because they’re going to be filming Platform Nine and Three Quarters stuff.” Sure enough, a few days later, that’s exactly what happened.
Micah: Good job.
Andrew: Thank you so much. That’s what I wanted.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: You know, I listened to that episode recently on the train, and I thought of this upcoming episode, and I said, “You know what? Andrew was right,” because…
Andrew: [tearfully] Thank you so much.
Micah: … they did, in fact, end up leaking photos of them filming King’s Cross.
Andrew: Yeah. Oh, and by the way, Ron in those photos is wearing a Chudley Cannons T-shirt. People were very excited about that.
Eric: Ahh!
Andrew: It’s going to be these little details that are going to win people over.
Laura: It’s the small touches, yep.
Andrew: Well, that’s what’s happening with the Harry Potter TV show, so stick with MuggleCast for continuing coverage as filming and more announcements develop.
Micah: We do need to talk about this year’s physical gift, the MuggleCast 20th anniversary retrospective, the MuggleCast yearbook. And look, this is a real book. It’s made of actual paper and everything. It features writing from all four of us, and it chronicles the wild, the weird, and occasionally coherent 20-year journey of the podcast. Inside you’re all going to find behind-the-scenes stories, original writing, and never-before-seen photos, some of which we probably should have kept buried. At this point, who cares?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: It’s basically a time capsule, but with better jokes and fewer awkward high school photos. We wanted to do something special to mark this milestone, because hey, 20 years is either an impressive run or just a sign we don’t know when to quit. So we’ve poured our hearts, brains, and way too many late nights into making something we think you all will genuinely enjoy flipping through, preferably while sipping a butterbeer or two. And because this is a yearbook, we’re also including a book plate, which is hand-signed by all four of us. You can stick it wherever you like in the book: front cover, back cover, or right over that one photo where we’re all wearing 2005-era fashion choices. It’s totally your choice.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Maybe in the part of the book that says “Autographs,” which is the last page, but yeah.
Micah: Maybe.
Eric: Or on your water bottle!
Micah: I know I’ve really enjoyed contributing to this. I think back to writing about the special guests that we’ve had on MuggleCast over the years, and we’ve had quite a few. We were talking about Warwick Davis earlier, who was on the show multiple times; David Heyman, the producer of the Harry Potter films; David Yates, the director of Order of the Phoenix on, also including the Fantastic Beasts films; we’ve had Evanna Lynch, and there’s a whole section dedicated to all the great guests that we’ve had over the two decades we’ve been podcasting. This gift is going to go out to Slug Club patrons, so a reminder that we send you a new physical gift every year. Just go to Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge at the Slug Club level to receive this yearbook, and the deadline to pledge is coming up soon; it is September 15, so by the time this episode is out, just a few days left to pledge.
Andrew: So don’t delay.
Eric: Yes, and all patrons have to opt in, by the way. Sitting and looking at the numbers. There is a form you have to fill out specifically to request it once you are a patron. Be sure to do that.
Andrew: Monday, September 15 is the deadline. Thanks, everybody! We really appreciate your support, and we can’t wait to get this yearbook out to you in the fall.
Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner
Andrew: Now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 37, “The Lost Prophecy.”
Eric: Yet again, I come across an episode of MuggleCast with a title that’s so good, I think, “How are we going to top it?” And the last time that we were discussing this chapter on MuggleCast was Episode 474 for July 21, 2020. That episode was called “There’s Something About Harry,” and here’s a clip for it.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I don’t know how we’re going to top it.
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.
Ron: What the…?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 474.
Laura: Yeah, I think the suggestion here is that Dumbledore’s office is somewhat sentient and can repair itself.
Micah: Huh, okay.
Eric: I think the Sorting Hat took it upon itself to clean up a little bit.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: And it sang.
Eric: It probably… yeah, it leaned over and a broom came out of it, and then it picked it up somehow and swept.
Andrew: [imitating the Sorting Hat] “Oh, I think this room’s not pretty. I’ll tidy up today.”
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Oh, keep going, Andrew. You’ve got the whole song.
Andrew: [imitating the Sorting Hat] “The headmaster would want it that way. After all, he’s gay.”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Andrew!
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.
[Bell dings]
Andrew: I totally forgot about that. [laughs]
Eric: Nice rhyme skills!
Laura: It’s a good moment.
Andrew: Yeah, wow. And that was before ChatGPT!
[Andrew and Eric laughs]
Eric: Before you could cheat.
Laura: That was all original.
Eric: Oh my God.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Eric: So yes, speaking of Chapter 37, “The Lost Prophecy,” this chapter picks up right where the last one left off. Harry has taken the wizard’s golden head – which is property theft – and Dumbledore made it a Portkey, and it’s transported him to the middle of Dumbledore’s office. Now, it’s impossible to guess what Harry might be feeling. Turns out it’s everything. There is a lot to make Harry restless, and honestly, with all the hubbub that just occurred at the Ministry now, the silence and solitude of Dumbledore’s office is kind of jarring for Harry. He immediately begins pacing. Everybody that’s here, I guess, in the form of the portraits, were at first asleep. It’s just… it’s quiet. It’s too quiet.
Laura: Definitely.
Eric: When left with this much silence and this lack of things going on, the vacuum is going to get filled with… what is it? Harry’s guilt. This is horrible. He has no choice but to reflect on what just happened, and I think the first emotion that crosses is he can’t think about Sirius, because then he would feel guilty. Should Harry feel guilty about Sirius’s death?
Micah: Eh, I don’t know if he should, but it’s certainly a natural emotion in this situation.
Laura: Yeah, I was going to plus one that. I think guilt is just an incredibly common part of the grieving process. I’m not a therapist, but I think we’ve all been through the grieving process at one point or another, and it’s really normal for your brain, as part of that bargaining stage, to think about all the what ifs. “What if I’d done this differently? What if I’d been there at this specific time? What if I had waited for Snape to come rescue me out of the forest before I ran off to the Ministry?” These are all natural things that your brain is going to jump to to ultimately try and soothe the pain that you’re feeling and help you process it. So I think it’s normal. It sucks, but only normal.
Andrew: I think processing is the key word here. This just happened, I mean, so of course he’s going to feel guilty. He’s going to feel every emotion right now; he’s going to replay through his head. He’s in denial that it’s happened too. We see early on in this chapter Harry doesn’t want to speak out loud that Sirius has died, because there would be a finality to it. He’s going to go through all the emotions, and that’s part of the juxtaposition we see between the last chapter and this one; we go from the noise to the quiet. It’s like, “Now I can think. Now my head can start to process what’s going on.”
Eric: Yeah, and that’s a bad thing. What I don’t like to see with Harry is him giving into Hermione’s whole phraseology of what Harry was doing. Harry, looking back on Sirius and the guilt he feels, says, “Hermione… she brought up that saving-people thing. I did rush off. What if I had just waited?” And it’s like, Harry, you did what you could! You tried to do your due diligence; you were hobbled. You had your hands tied behind your back. You don’t need to admit that you have a saving-people thing; it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. So in addition to the guilt, there’s also some self-loathing here. I think Harry wishes he didn’t have a saving-people thing, and he thinks he does.
Micah: I’d give Harry a mulligan here, though, because he’s operating off of the information that he has been given. And he’s been in a similar situation this year where he saw somebody who was very close to him be attacked by Voldemort, and because of his fast acting, they were able to save Arthur, so why would he believe this to be any different? I know that it’s easy for us to be on the sidelines here and criticize him for the way that he decided to act in this moment, but Sirius means just as much, if not more so, than Arthur does to him, and the fact that Voldemort could be torturing him and he’s just going to stand on the side and do nothing about it? I understand why he reacted the way that he did and chose the path that he chose. It’s unfortunate, but you can’t expect him not to, almost.
Laura: Yeah. He’s also beat Voldemort multiple times already, so he’s got some past experience to go off of when thinking about going up against this guy.
Eric and Micah: Yeah.
Andrew: And does Dumbledore even acknowledge in this chapter…? I’m trying to find the moment where Dumbledore acknowledges that Sirius is pretty much the closest thing he has to a father.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: It’s nice for Dumbledore to notice that. Dumbledore notices things like that, yeah.
Micah: The other piece of it, too, is that so many of the safety nets have been removed at this point where Harry doesn’t have much other choice than to himself go after Sirius, right? There’s no Dumbledore; there’s no Hagrid; there’s no McGonagall; Snape just, we think, has left him high and dry in Umbridge’s office. What is he supposed to do? All the adults are MIA.
Eric: Well, to add to Harry’s distress, we have Phineas Nigellus Black, Sirius Black’s great-grandfather, who Harry quickly strikes up a conversation with. He startles awake and he says, “Oh, what? You want me to give a message to my no good, good for nothing, great-grandson?” It’s salt in the wound here!
Andrew: It is.
Eric: And it’s not like Phineas knows this, but gosh, does that hurt to read when you’re reading this.
Andrew: Yeah. Partly because Harry is experiencing what happened before Sirius fell into the veil; he’s kind of caught between two worlds at the moment. But I also like this scene, not what Phineas is saying, but how the other portraits are taking notice, and one of them says, “Does this mean Dumbledore is going to be returning soon?” And they’re all excited to hear that Albus will be back soon, and Umbridge is out.
Micah: Yaaay!
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: Well, life is so much less boring.
Andrew: Well, yeah, and the reason that this stood out to me is I think this is something we should remember as we discuss the remainder of this chapter and this series. [coughs pointedly] People whose portraits are hanging in Dumbledore’s office, in the headmaster’s office, respect Dumbledore, admire Dumbledore, love Dumbledore. He is a legendary figure in the wizarding world, as is being acknowledged by these other legendary figures who have had the privilege of hanging in the headmaster’s office at Hogwarts. So I just want to say people deeply respect Dumbledore.
Micah: They do.
Eric: There’s something about Dumbledore.
Andrew: There’s something about that guy. He’s going places. For another book.
Laura: Is that the title of this episode?
Eric: I’m trying to make it. I’m trying to push it.
Andrew: [laughs] There’s something about Dumbledore! Oh, no!
Laura: There’s something about Dumbledore.
Eric: Or Albus, if we need.
Andrew: Something about Alby.
Micah: With Phineas Nigellus Black, though, I do see where you’re coming from, where you say it’s like rubbing salt in the wound. But when he does find out what’s happened, he does depart his portrait to go to Grimmauld Place, and I think he’s just one of those characters that likes to give Harry a hard time, and he’s a different type of headmaster than Dumbledore is, right?
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Micah: That’s the other piece of this. But I understand that that’s probably the last thing that Harry wants to hear upon landing in Dumbledore’s office.
Eric: Well, yeah, and having seen Sirius die, Harry knows that Phineas is going home or going to Grimmauld Place; he’s not going to find him. And honestly, it’s a mercy that we don’t hear a wail coming from the other portrait through into Dumbledore’s office in the middle of Harry and Dumbledore’s conversation. But small mercies, honestly. This beginning of this chapter goes really hard into Harry’s feelings, but ultimately, this stuff has been pent up for a year. This is the other thing: This chapter really has come to a head, the confrontation or all of the feelings between Harry and Dumbledore, which we’re going to get into, but I like it for that, because ultimately, it’s better to let these feelings out. Even though Harry can’t seem to bring himself to say he’s gone, the conversation that Dumbledore brings on needs to happen, and it needs to happen not just for closure for the book, but for the ability to move forward to whatever kind of relationship Dumbledore and Harry are going to have. Because like it or not, Dumbledore is one of Harry’s loved ones. He tells Harry in this chapter, “I love you,” or “care for you” is as close as he can get. But there are… somebody that loved or cared for Harry is recently departed, and it’s important, I think, in a way, that psychologically we’re getting a kind of a reconciliation, or at least an understanding or a path forward with one of the other people that really do actually care about Harry, and they haven’t been talking all year. So talking about that, I thought it would be fun to give OWL rankings as we get into Dumbledore’s handling of the situation, to how we think Dumbledore handles this situation. Now, this includes staying quiet while Harry breaks all of his stuff, and also to saying, “I’m going to tell you everything,” which happens to then be what he tells him. So just let’s rate Dumbledore’s performance in this chapter. Who wants to go first?
Andrew: I’ll go first. I’ll give it an Exceeds Expectations.
Micah: Shocker.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: He takes responsibility. He says, “Maybe I should have told you things sooner.” He’s very compassionate and yet forceful with Harry. He locks Harry in the office, which I thought was a bold move, considering all he’s put him through.
Eric: That’s wild.
Andrew: But Dumbledore probably made the right choice, because as we see, Harry is trying to get out, and Dumbledore is going to give him some tough, real talk first before letting him go. So all in all, it’s not Outstanding – I think you should be pleased I didn’t give him an Outstanding – but it’s not Acceptable; he did better than that. I’m good with the double E.
Eric: I’m going to say it’s not Acceptable, which is, by the way, an OWL rating, Acceptable. I’m going to say it’s not Acceptable, but only because I don’t think that what Dumbledore is doing is okay, so that means that I have to give Dumbledore a P for Poor. I just think that there’s some revisionist history going. The whole “I’m going to tell you everything,” even if Dumbledore stops short of telling Harry the obvious full series mysteries – which he absolutely does – but even if he only did that, he doesn’t need to lie to Harry. Dumbledore is still manipulating the truths that he’s telling Harry in this chapter, and so for that reason, I find it less than Acceptable. So I think that what this amounts to, even in these tender moments where Dumbledore is saying to Harry, “I just cared for you so much; I couldn’t tell you this,” what it reads more like is that Dumbledore is telling himself stories that will make his own guilt over Sirius’s death feel better, and he’s telling Harry these things that are going to disarm Harry, but they’re not exactly close to being true; we know this. So I gave it a Poor.
Micah: Well, Andrew, you might be shocked by this, but I gave Dumbledore an Exceeds Expectations.
Andrew: Aww!
Laura: Wow.
Eric: The double E!
Micah: The double E.
Andrew: Why?
Micah: Why? [laughs] For all the reasons you said, and then some.
Andrew: Oh, oh.
Micah: I think if you were grading Dumbledore on his behavior for the prior 36 chapters, it would be somewhere in the Poor to Troll category. However, how he handles this situation in his office is borderline Acceptable/Exceeds Expectations.
Andrew: Okay. Yes.
Micah: I just think when he is present, he’s on. When he’s being a 150-year-old man baby, he’s not.
Andrew: Man baby! He admits that old age is part of the problem.
Laura: Shots fired.
Micah: We’ll talk about this later, but his behavior in this particular book is just unacceptable.
Andrew: Okay. Well, he admits he made mistakes, but we’ll get to that.
Micah: Too late. Anyway, I agree with you for now.
Laura: Yeah, admits that he made mistakes while he’s actively making another mistake by not actually telling Harry anything that he needs to know. I kind of went for a middle ground here and said this was Acceptable, and the reason I went with this was because I think, due to the circumstances that Dumbledore himself set up that led to this moment, there was a ceiling to how high I was going to rate this, no matter how well he did. So I thought Dumbledore actually did pretty well in this circumstance, remaining calm, making sure to emphasize to Harry, “It’s okay to feel grief; it’s completely normal. You still have your humanity.” That is something to be thankful for. Taking accountability for several of his missteps. I think these are all great things, but ultimately he, I think, set himself up to be in this situation literally every day for the last year of this story. Every single time he woke up and decided not to tell Harry what was going on, that was a choice. It was a choice every single time.
Eric: [laughs] I see, so you’re saying we shouldn’t really give Dumbledore his flowers for handling angry Harry so well, because he created the situation that created angry Harry to begin… okay, I get it. Yeah. Well, I’ve enjoyed the ratings. I want to talk about how Dumbledore first attempts to make Harry feel better. The first words out of Dumbledore’s lips when he returns are, “I know how you are feeling.” Harry quickly replies, “No, you don’t.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But I think that this is an okay opener.
Andrew: Yes!
Eric: I just gave Dumbledore a Poor; this is an okay opener. “I know how you are feeling.” This is empathetic. This is… it’s not antagonistic. It’s honestly meant to bridge this impossible divide that’s grown up against them over the year. I don’t have a problem with the opening line, and I’ll tell you, but he quickly ruins it. [laughs] How do we feel about “I know how you’re feeling”?
Micah: I think it’s a bit of a throwaway line, and here’s where my head went: And we’ve all seen the TV shows like SVU and Criminal Minds when the cop comes to the grieving widow or parent and says, “I know what you’re going through,” and then they immediately respond, “No, you don’t,” and then they respond, “You’re right. I don’t.” And that’s what this reminded me of. It’s almost expected that this is what Dumbledore would say.
Eric: Oooh.
Micah: “Oh, I know how you’re feeling.” And he might; there’s truth to that. But I don’t think it’s… I don’t know what else you lead with here, to be completely honest.
Andrew: That was going to be my question. Maybe you just say, “I screwed up. Oopsie!”
Micah: Maybe.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: “I made a mistake.” I don’t know what else you could open with that Harry would actually like, other than “I suck.”
Eric: If he said “Oopsie,” that would be amazing.
Laura: Oh, man.
Eric: I would have given him an Exceeds Expectations for that.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “We all make mistakes.”
Laura: Had a little “Oopsie-poopsie” for the entire year? Yeah, I think Dumbledore does know how Harry feels right now. Think about Ariana, right? I think that’s a perfect example of Dumbledore having a similar circumstance where he feels like he’s at fault for the death of a family member, right? So I think he’s trying to relate to Harry in that sense here, but the problem is Dumbledore hasn’t been open about any of this, so it’s not going to resonate with Harry.
Eric: Right, he’s not going to immediately tell Harry, “By the way, I had a sister once, and I blame myself for her death.” That actually would be so effective, I think. Because Harry doesn’t know anything about Dumbledore, it would have the result of bringing the two boys/men closer. Yeah, that’s a heck of an idea. That should be an invitation for Dumbledore to tell Harry more about himself there. But instead, Dumbledore adds, “There is no shame in what you are feeling. In fact, this is your greatest strength.” Now, this is not what Harry wants to hear, but this is also not what I think anybody would want to hear after losing somebody close to them. “Isn’t it great that you feel love and feel the loss that comes from love, Harry? Woohoo! Whoop-de-do! I think it’s awesome that, in fact, you’re able to suffer like this” is what Dumbledore is basically saying to Harry. Of course it doesn’t work!
Laura: It’s the wrong timing, I think, for this kind of thing. I think he’s really trying to impress upon Harry the key difference between Harry and Voldemort…
Eric: Right.
Laura: … in that Harry can still feel love, and that’s all well and good, but I don’t know that this is the time. I think a lot of what comes after this, in terms of explanation, would have been better setup for Dumbledore to then say, “Hey, your grief is your strength, because it’s what makes you different from him.”
Eric: Oooh. Okay.
Andrew: Yeah. So I agree Dumbledore is trying to start leaning into this theme of “Love is your greatest weapon, it’s the greatest power, it’s the thing Voldemort knows not,” so maybe he should have led with a little more details here, because ultimately, I agree with you, Eric, that “Woohoo, you feel emotion and sadness when somebody close to you dies!” That’s not enough to explain why you’re saying what you’re saying here.
Eric: Well, and it doesn’t feel like a strength to Harry, right? It’s the burden. It’s the burden of having lost someone. And so I think what it is, though, based on what Laura and what Andrew, you were saying, is Dumbledore is just thinking about his victory, how he just snatched… Harry is still alive, and has just defeated Voldemort again, and I think that’s thrilling for Dumbledore, to the point where Dumbledore obviously knows what happened. It’s the whole love thing that Harry’s got going on, and so he’s going to lead with this sort of faux pas of mentioning that love is a strength, because Dumbledore can’t, I think, immediately get over the fact that love really is what just triumphed a moment ago when Voldemort was trying to possess Harry and couldn’t. It was because the love. So I think that in Dumbledore’s own way, he thinks he’s explaining some great mystery, but it hasn’t been built up yet, and so that’s interesting.
Micah: Right. To me, it shows that even Dumbledore doesn’t know how to handle a situation like this, and really – and I’m sure we’re going to talk more about it – this whole conversation humanizes Dumbledore. It’s like the curtain gets pulled back on the great wizard that is Albus Dumbledore, and you start to realize his faults. And actually, I agree with what’s being said, because I think he’s so intent on getting Harry out of the Ministry, back to his office, so he can word vomit everything that’s been going on throughout this entire school year to try and save face a little bit with Harry, when in fact, Harry probably shouldn’t even be in this particular situation. He should probably either be with Madam Pomfrey, or surrounded by friends, or with Lupin, or… there’s a lot of other potential scenarios for Harry, and the fact that Dumbledore takes him back to his office, locks him in there, has him wait in silence for him…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … and then just completely unleashes everything over the course of the last several months that’s been unfolding, and then some, because he goes back in time to tell him all what’s happened. I just think that it shows that he’s human, he’s a human being, and just like everybody else, he doesn’t know the best way to handle these situations.
Andrew: Dumbledore has never been through something like this before, even though we’re heading into the second war. Harry obviously hasn’t been through something like this before. I actually like the point Dumbledore makes about old age. He faults himself because he has had lived experiences that should have been able to inform how he managed Harry, whereas Harry cannot see Dumbledore’s perspective, because Harry is just young; he hasn’t had those lived experiences yet.
Eric: Right, right.
Andrew: So I think this old age argument that Albus brings up is very valid. I think it can be interpreted as Albus saying that it was impossible to know the right way to share things with Harry, because neither of them, no one, has had to deal with this type of very complicated situation before! Dumbledore is leveling with Harry. He could have continued to be like, “Well, I still don’t know the best way to handle all this; just you wait and see.”
Laura: But I mean, he kind of does, though.
Eric: Well, I don’t think the curtain gets pulled back on Albus Dumbledore the man any more than what Dumbledore wants it to be pulled back. To Laura’s point earlier, he could have talked about his sister. That would completely obliterate any pretense of Dumbledore not telling Harry stuff, is if he led with…
Micah: Not to Harry, but to the reader. The curtain gets pulled back to the reader.
Eric: To the reader. No, you’re right. It’s above the text; it’s meta-textual here. You have to understand that when Dumbledore is telling Harry “I’m going to tell you everything” and revealing his faults, it’s not in what he says; it’s in what he does and what he doesn’t do here.
Laura: Yeah. And over in our Discord, Ariane points out, “It feels like he’s trying to control Harry still, even in this moment,” and Forty added, “He’s definitely still driving to the desired outcome of Harry facing Voldy at the right time, a.k.a. setting him up to be a pig for slaughter.”
Eric: There is one moment of brilliance, though, and it does get Harry to stop trying to leave his office, and it’s when Dumbledore says, “You’re not nearly as angry with me as you should be, because if you knew everything that I’ve done, you would be even angrier.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: And okay, all right. This is delicious. This is utterly… Harry is like, “Huh?” And so in this moment, the old age has understood what it is to be young and hot behind the collar, so I think it’s a good get. It forces Harry to pay attention; it also forces Harry to stop wallowing in the guilt spiral and ultimately… like I said, it gets his attention for what Dumbledore needs to tell him, so I think it’s clever.
Laura and Micah: I agree.
Laura: Yeah, I think that was probably the one thing that he could say that would really get Harry to lock in and listen to this whole explanation.
Andrew: Yeah. Another reason I like this chapter and Dumbledore’s heart-to-heart with Harry is Dumbledore is kind of setting up this real talk zone. Like I mentioned earlier, he’s got him locked in. He’s saying stuff like, “You actually should be harder on me.” Harry says, “I don’t care about anything!” and Dumbledore says, “You actually do.”
[Eric and Laura laughs]
Andrew: These are some good back and forth lines.
Micah: Do you think part of that is to make himself feel better?
Andrew: Probably. [laughs]
Micah: Because he’s been absent for the entire…
Andrew: Yes, and he feels bad about!
Micah: Well, does he?
Andrew: Well, he says he feels bad for not teaching him Occlumency.
Eric: Yeah, I think that some of this, “Oh, I should have known, or I should have…” isn’t really repentant enough for my liking. It’s an acknowledgement; there’s points for saying something out loud, but he’d get more points if he meant them, I think. He ultimately is giving Harry lines as an excuse to continue lying to Harry, to some extent. Now, there is some information, however, that is ultimately conveyed – and we’re going to talk about it – but I think on the whole, if we’re going to look at this knowing what we know from Books 6 and 7 and the series as a whole that we’ve just been reading through, I think that we can come to an agreement on there are several key things that were withheld at the end of this conversation that never made it into this conversation, and for a conversation that is itself about stuff that was withheld from Harry, I think it falls short at redeeming the loss that has been pasted over the series. But it’s imperfect; I don’t dislike the book about this. I think that it’s just a very good example of a very flawed person and a dynamic between these two. I don’t think until the end of Book 6 are they really equals, but this conversation could have ended in that way, where, if Dumbledore had given a little bit more, Harry and Dumbledore would be on more of an equal footing, I think.
Andrew: That would have been pretty nice, especially considering the name of the next chapter, “The Second War Begins.” To have them on equal footing as the second war begins would be pretty cool.
Eric: That’s interesting. Okay, yeah, I like that a lot. Harry would be Dumbledore’s man through and through, and they’d be… his rightful soldier.
Andrew: Yeah, copilot.
Eric: Copilot, yeah!
Andrew: Fully aware of the situation and the stakes and what has to be done.
Micah: He kind of is, though.
Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “Harry, it is time for me to name you co-president of the Order of the Phoenix.”
Andrew: [laughs] “You’re not a prefect, but you’re copilot.”
Micah: He’s his copilot, yeah, just without the flight plan.
Eric: I can see that on a bumper sticker: “Harry is my copilot.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: So there’s a line here that I like; I mentioned it before. “Old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young.” This line is supposed to excuse Dumbledore supposedly not realizing that keeping Sirius cooped up was a problem, and it’s also… Harry’s bustling desire for knowledge, and Harry lashing out when he didn’t have the knowledge – lashing out in this case means going to the Ministry – is what Dumbledore is trying to excuse by saying, “My bad; I’ve forgotten that young people want to know things.” No, everybody wants to know things, right? If you have the answer, it’s your duty to provide… it seems like Dumbledore wants to excuse a bunch of stuff with “Old men forget what it is to be young.” I don’t know that lands for me.
Laura: This is a line… I don’t know that I necessarily buy Dumbledore’s logic here, because he’s smarter than this, but this is a line that has honestly stuck with me for the last 20 plus years of being a Harry Potter fan…
Eric: It’s a good one.
Laura: … and it’s something that I try to remember, because I’m closer to 40 than I am to 20 at this point, and I think sometimes it can be really tempting to look at younger people and maybe judge their trends, or the things that they’re interested in, or the way that they might approach things, and anytime I feel that inclination come up – because it’s natural to feel that way – I often find myself thinking about this line specifically, and being like, “I don’t want to be that person who forgets what it was like to be young,” and to understand all of the limitations, but also all the opportunities that come with that.
Eric: Man, yeah.
Micah: And what ensues is that Dumbledore goes into explaining to Harry why he chose not to disseminate the information after his first year, after his second year, after his third year, after his fourth year… and to me, this goes to the earlier point about just Dumbledore being humanized in this chapter. And my issue is that while he arguably did the right thing in those first four years, you could argue, Dumbledore runs from the situation when the moment was ripe to tell Harry the truth, and to me, that was at the beginning of year five. Giving him not even all the information, but enough of the information. And I know I called him a man baby earlier – 150-year-old man baby – but think about how he behaves. He’s so afraid of being watched – and he does a lot of watching, by the way; he says as much in this chapter – but he’s so afraid of being watched by Voldemort that he puts Harry through hell this year. I mean, he behaves like a 2-year-old with a temper tantrum, like, “Don’t look at me! Don’t look at me!” He runs out of the courtroom. There are all these moments where you say to yourself, “Are you this wisened old Yoda/Gandalf type figure, or are you another teenager at Hogwarts?”
Laura: Well, and I think this is where the “greater good” mentality still comes in for Dumbledore, even though he doesn’t necessarily hold all the same views that he did when he was young and when he was so infatuated with Grindelwald. But you can definitely see that there is an element here of Dumbledore thinking about the entire chess board, if you will, and saying, “I know what’s best for our world,” right?
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Eric: Well, and to that point, it’s worth pointing out that the only reason Harry gets many of the answers at all in the entire series is because Harry happens to be at the boathouse right as Snape is bleeding out, and… because this is a flaw with Dumbledore as a person that actually never gets resolved. Dumbledore is not telling Harry stuff.
Micah: The Shrieking Shack.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: That’s not the boathouse? Oh, I movie-ismed it. I’m sorry. Thank you, Micah.
Andrew: It’s okay; I prefer the boathouse, personally.
Eric: I appreciate… yeah, it’s nice because the glass and the…
Andrew: Yeah, the water.
Micah: Anyway.
Eric: Wherever Snape is dead, Harry is present…
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: … and it’s the only reason that Harry knows anything, because Dumbledore’s flaw is not telling Harry stuff, and it’s a flaw that never gets resolved. The only reason Harry knows anything about Snape and his love for Lily – and what saved him, and who the silver doe was, and the whole fact that he’s got to be willing to walk into the forest – all of this stuff comes from Snape’s memories, and there was never, at any point in Deathly Hallows, a time when Harry could have retrieved these memories until the last possible second. And so it’s reckless of Dumbledore to further not… to keep, after this moment, still not telling Harry stuff, because there’s such a small chance he’s ever going to get that stuff, unless Dumbledore is open.
Andrew: Yeah. I know we like to avoid this point because it’s not helpful for analysis sake, but the way it plays out in the story is beautiful. It is amazing that Harry gets these from Snape’s memories, and Snape provides them at the last minute. And yes, the timing’s convenient, and Dumbledore shouldn’t have waited so long, and it’s lucky that it worked out this way, but the way it does play out is beautiful.
Laura: I don’t know; I just have to observe the ultimate irony that it’s Snape who gives Harry what he wanted from Dumbledore the entire time.
Andrew: [laughs] Snape, who Harry thought has been the enemy this entire time, is actually incredibly helpful.
Laura: Yep.
Eric: Well, there’s something else about Snape that Dumbledore is not telling Harry, but we’re going to talk about what Dumbledore is not telling Harry on the second part of this discussion. I also just want to ask here, because there’s this moment where Dumbledore closes his eyes and he buries his face in his long-figured hands; Harry watches him. “This uncharacteristic sign of exhaustion, or sadness, or whatever it was from Dumbledore, did not soften him. On the contrary, he felt even angrier that Dumbledore was showing signs of weakness. He had no business being weak when Harry wanted to rage and storm at him.” And now I’m thinking, is this an additional tactic so that Harry calms down? Because if he sees how gosh darn old this guy in front of him looks – all 150 years of him are on his face right now – is Harry less likely to attack? The reason I ask if this is an act on Dumbledore’s part is because he was just fighting Voldemort! He was so spry and was doing magic like we’ve never seen and didn’t… there’s not a scratch on Dumbledore from Voldemort at full power, facing off against him, and yet here, when he’s in his office and Harry is raging at him, he’s like, “I’m so tired right now.” [laughs] I think it’s an act.
Andrew: Oh, no. I think Dumbledore is not just physically tired, but mentally exhausted. He’s been trying to do his best, like I was saying earlier. Nobody could have predicted that the situation would play out exactly how it did. You couldn’t predict how it would play out. Voldemort is a pretty unpredictable person; there are a lot of variables at play. It’s just… I think Dumbledore is just… he wanted to win, and he’s not winning right now, and it’s exhausting. He’s trying his best. He’s trying his best, y’all! Can’t you give him credit for that?
[Micah laughs]
Laura: Yeah. What does Miley Cyrus always say?
Andrew: “Everybody has those days”?
Laura: Oh, I thought…
Andrew: “It’s the climb”? “I can’t be tamed”?
Laura: I thought the other one was named “Nobody’s Perfect”?
Andrew: “Nobody’s Perfect”!
Laura: I feel like the… yeah, there you go.
Andrew: See, I get confused because that was technically Hannah Montana, but I’ll allow it.
Laura: Oh, oh, sorry. Well, have you ever seen Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus in the same room?
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: I’m just saying.
Micah: I feel like, Andrew, you’re going to be shocked, because I agree with you. I don’t even think this is weakness; I think it’s just…
Andrew: No.
Micah: It’s pure and utter exhaustion, and it’s him demonstrating his emotion and how he feels about Harry and everything that has transpired over the course of these last several years, and it’s all culminated in this moment. And I do think there’s something to the fact that he just fought Voldemort.
Andrew: Yeah!
Micah: Voldemort is no pushover.
Andrew: And Voldemort just possessed Harry! I mean…
Eric: I think it’s convenient exhaustion. He was on it with Fudge; he had to set the whole wizarding world straight! Now he comes back to his office and he’s tired? Come on. Give Harry the time he needs.
Micah: You know what wore him out? Talking to Kreacher. That’s what tired Dumbledore. That whole conversation he had to put up talking…
Eric: With Fudge?
Micah: No, Kreacher.
Eric: Oh.
Micah: You mentioned the other creature; I’m talking about the house-elf. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah. So it’s interesting. But moving on to the whole “I’m going to tell you everything,” here’s the quote: “Dumbledore lowered his hands and surveyed Harry through his half-moon glasses. ‘It is time,’ he said, ‘for me to tell you what I should have told you five years ago, Harry. Please sit down. I’m going to tell you everything. I ask only a little patience.'” What I have to say about an overview of what Dumbledore tells Harry is that it does very nicely tie up a lot of the Book 5-specific plot things, right? We find out everything there was to know about exactly who found out the information about the prophecy, when it was conveyed, what Harry’s visions have meant. There’s a lot of… there’s answers. There are answers. And where it falls short, I think, as we’ve been alluding to all episode, is the either half-truths or continued omissions of some of the more series-relevant stuff, the bigger picture things. And so what I want to know – because even though we get a lot of these answers to Book 5, and Dumbledore talking to Kreacher and all that stuff – I think there was another missed opportunity for Dumbledore to actually thank Harry for starting Dumbledore’s Army, or talking about how Harry’s own resistance helped them get to the moment that they’re at. For a man that is allergic to talking about how he cares about Harry, he nevertheless could have said, “Good job,” or praised him, because I think that Harry would have really responded to it if Dumbledore had talked about how “We’re such a good team,” or how “Your efforts this year, apart from losing Sirius, they weren’t all in vain, because you did such great work.” Something… I guess that’s what I want out of this conversation.
Laura: I think that maybe he’s steering clear of talking about Dumbledore’s Army, just because that’s ultimately what got Dumbledore sacked from Hogwarts, and that’s what really let the poo hit the fan.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: You think he’s still sore about it? Or just that… yeah.
Laura: I don’t know that he’s sore about it, but I also don’t think that Dumbledore would necessarily want to bring that up right now, because it’s another in a series of events that ultimately led us to where we are now. And granted, a lot of that is Dumbledore’s fault, and some of it, you could argue, is Harry’s fault, but that’s more so due to the fact that Harry was operating with incomplete information, right? And so maybe he’s trying to avoid bringing that up because Harry doesn’t need something else to feel guilty about. Does that make sense?
Andrew: That’s what I was thinking, too. Harry’s got enough on his plate right now; I think Dumbledore’s Army is ultimately not the most relevant thing to… yeah, he doesn’t need to load more on him. He’s already ready to snap even further. You don’t need to push him.
Micah: And Laura, I know you mentioned Ariana earlier. I think a lot of Dumbledore’s behavior in his conversation to Harry is informed by what happened to his sister, or I would even maybe extend it further than that to say that a lot of his behavior since Harry was left on the Dursleys’ doorstep was probably informed by what happened to his sister. Because as this relationship between him and Harry grow, he talks about caring for him, loving him, and we know that the closest person to him outside of his brother was his sister, who adored him, and he holds himself fully responsible for what ultimately happens to her, and I think he might be afraid of the same thing happening to Harry, somebody else who he deeply cares for.
Eric: I love this. Taking that view, it actually makes a lot of sense why Dumbledore isn’t even getting close to touching how he feels about Harry. He’ll mention, “Oh, I care for you,” but because his… he must still feel the loss of Ariana so much that he can’t think about losing Harry, even though he knows Harry has to attack Voldemort in the end.
Micah: Right.
Eric: He’s never going to tell him this. This is why it’s not Dumbledore that tells Harry this to begin with; it’s the overheard memory in the end.
Micah: I think there’s this internal struggle for Dumbledore between being the chess master and being this grandfatherly figure, and he can’t figure out the middle ground.
Eric: I like it. But as a wrapping-up, when Harry…
Micah: Is Trelawney here? [laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, we’re going to talk about the prophecy in a minute, but actually, when Harry asks the qualifying question of, “So sir, one of us must kill the other?” Dumbledore is like, “Yeah. And also, by the way, I bet you’re wondering why I didn’t make you a prefect.” And then the chapter ends, and I’m like, “Oh, Dumbledore doesn’t want to talk anymore.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: This is 100%… he doesn’t want to get into any more detail about it; he just cracks a joke.
Micah: I think it was just supposed to be a light way to end the chapter. Just think about how the previous chapter ended and just how heavy this chapter was.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: I’ll be honest; I didn’t like it.
Laura: Oh!
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: It felt out of place. It was irrelevant. It wasn’t funny. Dumbledore can be funny, quirky…
Eric: Because we as readers are so absorbed.
Andrew: Yeah, it just… didn’t like it. He should have said something else. I love a Dumbledore joke, but it wasn’t working for me.
Micah: [laughs] Maybe just not even include it. End it with Harry asking the question about whether or not they had to kill each other, and that’s it.
Eric: And Dumbledore is just like, “Goodnight, Harry.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Or just be like, “Hey, you gonna pay for any of those things you just destroyed in my office?” I don’t know. “Actually, I was just kidding that I have too much stuff. That was a lot of valuables you threw away, or broke.”
Eric: This would be the perfect moment for the Michael Gambon Dumbledore “Goodnight.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, leave it at that.
Laura: But imagine how powerful it would have been if we’d had this moment where Harry is like, “Wait, so one of us has to kill the other?” and if we had just gotten the chapter wrap with the single tear rolling down Dumbledore’s cheek.
Eric: Ohhh.
Laura: I think that would have hit so much harder.
Eric: Let’s talk about the prophecy! We do get the full text of it. Turns out the prophecy was made to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore’s memory is not that of a 150-year-old man; it’s much better. The best prophecies are self-fulfilling, right? Where it’s like somebody tries to stop it, and you can only… you can’t do it and ends up putting things in motion.
Laura: Yep.
Eric: So I love this whole “Voldemort will mark him as his equal,” and it turns out there were two. This prophecy and the whole circumstance around it is nuanced enough to be really interesting. And the whole series… the bedrock of the series is pretty much the way that Voldemort chose… he only heard half the prophecy, which is clever, and he chose to act on it in a very specific way that Dumbledore points out. So I just find it very interesting. It’s always like… reading this chapter, I’m like, “Oh yeah, what might we infer about Voldemort’s overall character based on his choice to go after the half-blood and not the pure-blood?” and all that stuff. So I don’t know. I’m just always interested to read this.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, he’s deeply insecure, and his interpretation of this prophecy was really to view it as a mirror, right?
Andrew: I will say that when Dumbledore is talking about refilling the position of Divination, he indicates he was skeptical…
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: … and he was thinking about not even hiring, filling the role? And this was a weird thing for him to include. It feels ultimately irrelevant. Why even add that to what you’re telling Harry?
Eric: Yeah, is he trying to play on Harry’s…? “Oh yeah, Divination is kind of a crap subject.”
Andrew: “It’s stupid, right? I wasn’t going to refill the role, but then this woman walks in and screams at me…” [laughs]
Eric: “I wasn’t even going to take this interview!” Yeah, no, it’s a good question, because what is his point in saying that? Ultimately, he did take the… he knew Trelawney’s blood history, and he does ultimately take the interview, so what does he have to gain by telling Harry? “I wasn’t even going to refill that position.”
Andrew: Yeah, it just ultimately felt irrelevant to the story that he was telling.
Eric: There’s so much secrecy surrounding this whole encounter. He doesn’t say who interrupts, who overhears the prophecy; it was Snape. He doesn’t talk about the barman at all, who’s his brother. And he actually – we talked about this on 474, and there’s a great paragraph about it; you can check out the transcript – but Dumbledore completely puts the location on Trelawney. He says Trelawney chooses the Hog’s Head because it’s cheap. That didn’t happen; I’m sure Dumbledore wanted to meet Sybill here because of his brother. So I don’t know. It just raises more questions than answers, him bringing up that part, to your point, Andrew.
Laura: I don’t know if he was just trying to be real with Harry.
Eric: It’s time to be real, everybody.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Real talk zone.
Laura: Yeah. You know, like trying to relate to him in so far as, “Yeah, we both know she’s a fraud. Let me tell you why she’s actually here.”
Eric: It’s kind of a cool reveal.
Micah: And this is not the first prophecy that we’ve heard from Trelawney.
Laura: Right.
Micah: As we’ve been connecting threads between Order of the Phoenix and Prisoner of Azkaban, we heard… and Harry actually recounts this in the chapter, that he had heard this voice before, and it was back in Book 3 when Trelawney made the prophecy about Wormtail returning to Voldemort, and so we continue to see these nice little nuggets, nice little threads that we are able to connect.
Superlative of the Week
Eric: We’ve talked a lot about Dumbledore; it was warranted because the chapter… Dumbledore has not been in this book, so here it is. The MVP segment for this episode is going to be what is the most damning Dumbledore quote? Which one makes him the most kind of bad, actually?
Andrew: So the one I wanted to share is actually one we were talking about a few minutes ago. Laura, I love that you said it’s stuck with you over the last 20 plus years. This is the one line I had highlighted in the ebook while reading this chapter: “Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young… and I seem to have forgotten that lately.” It was powerful. Hindsight is 20/20.
Eric: What makes that quote damning?
Andrew: Well, it was damning in that, like, “Wow, it’s some real talk from him.”
Eric: Yeah, yeah. No, I can get behind that. And it’s damn cool. Here’s what I’m going to say, and this is out of context, kind of. It’s, “What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if in the here and now you were alive and well and happy?” Who talks like that? [laughs] But it’s a compliment. Harry is going to love to hear this, right, that “I cared for your happiness,” but you could just say that. Instead he says, “All these people are going to get slaughtered, and it’s going to be fine.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Okay?
Micah: Including him. The one that stood out to me was when Dumbledore said, “I defy anyone who has watched you as I have – and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined.” Uh, stranger danger?
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: I mean, what? What this also makes me wonder is, especially throughout Order of the Phoenix after Dumbledore has left, how closely is he watching Harry? Could he have intervened at another point?
Eric: Oooh.
Micah: And maybe even looking back at other books, were there moments where he could have stepped in? He is admitting here to keeping a really close eye on Harry.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: What about last year with the Triwizard Tournament?
Andrew: Yeah, were you watching then?
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Then there wouldn’t be a question of “Didya put your name in the arrraarrrghhhh?!”
Laura: [laughs] I’m also thinking about, like, Chamber of Secrets. Where were ya?
Andrew: “You liar!”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Hey, we’re going to get to that!
Laura: My selection here was, “I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father.” I call BS on that.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: There is no way you thought that he was going to be able to overcome that. Just a few books ago, at the end of Sorcerer’s Stone, you were telling Harry that his father did something to Snape that Snape could never forgive, and that was saving his life. You knew, you absolutely knew, that there was no way Snape was going to be an objective party in any of this. And I think he’s just projecting the level of maturity that maybe he would have in that circumstance – or that he thinks he would have – onto Snape, and it’s not reality.
Micah: We didn’t talk about this much, but this is one of the major missteps that Dumbledore has in this book, by assigning Snape to teach Harry Occlumency.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Micah: He knows the history, as Laura just pointed out, and the fact that he allows Snape to… and the fact that he corrects Harry to “Professor Snape”; that’s where…
Andrew: [laughs] That was silly, too.
Eric: It’s real talk time!
Andrew: There’s multiple weird moments from Dumbledore in this chapter. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, if I were Harry in that moment, I don’t know what I would have said after that.
Andrew: Slap him?
Micah: Yeah. Pull his beard. I don’t know.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Greasy Snape. Snivellus.
Andrew: I will say, though, I think we have discussed this a little bit in prior Chapter by Chapters this series, about how bad of an idea it was for Dumbledore to appoint Snape into this role. So the Dumbledore Lie Count returns?
Eric: Yes, yes! You alluded to the sound effect for this. But it turns out we used to do a segment called the Dumbledore Lie Count on this show, and we had to stop because Dumbledore is not in this book, until now, so great. And at last count, Dumbledore had lied about 12 times, or actually we hit 13. So we last stopped on 642 at 12, and then there’s another one that was added in 706. So we’ve been toying with the idea of returning to Lie Count, but here we are about to add more. So the lie that I have is the one… it’s a lie of omission about the spy at the door to the Hog’s Head. So Harry, in this chapter – we just mentioned this – “Snape,” “Professor Snape,” “Yeah, him, whatever.” This whole moment where Dumbledore is revealing this crucial-most point about the prophecy completely glosses over that it was Snape who overheard. And I understand why Dumbledore wouldn’t want to get completely down this tangent, but it’s an example of Dumbledore conveniently sweeping very important plot details way under the rug, and Harry is none the wiser for it. So I think this is damning enough to add to the Lie Count. This would be number 14.
[Dumbledore Lie Count sound effect plays]
Andrew: Ding!
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: You know what? Let’s do one more. And I mentioned this earlier…
Andrew: Oh no.
Eric: … but Dumbledore says it was Trelawney that chose the venue, and I don’t think that’s possible.
[Dumbledore Lie Count sound effect plays]
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: The Lie Count is now at 15.
Laura: Well, just wait until we get to The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore.
Andrew: Augh.
Lynx Line
Eric: Okay, well, we asked… this is a great Lynx Line; I’m very happy with the Lynx Line this week that we’re going to talk about, because we have talked about on the show how withholding information nearly cost Dumbledore the whole ball game. So we asked over on our Patreon: At what moment in the series should Dumbledore actually have told Harry everything?
Andrew: Everything. All right, well, Rachel said,
“I think Dumbledore could have told Harry about the prophecy at the end of Sorcerer’s Stone when Harry asks why Voldemort wanted to kill him. News that Horcruxes exist and Voldemort has made some could come in Chamber of Secrets when Harry destroys the diary. He can learn that he is a Horcrux in Half-Blood Prince when they’re determining what all the Horcruxes are. I’m now debating whether Dumbledore should have told Harry about the Hallows. Are we including that in ‘everything’? If so, I’d say Half-Blood Prince.”
Yeah, that could be included. So everything shifts a few years. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah. At least that generates, I think, a habit for Dumbledore. If his problem is never giving up crucial detail to Harry, which is a strategic problem, then it makes sense that he would start the habit of telling Harry about one crazy true thing every year. Steph on the Lynx Line says,
“Had Dumbledore been more honest with Harry, he may not have been so compelled to figure everything out and handle it on his own. Had the info about prophecies been shared, Harry could have used logic and critical thinking in a more successful way rather than being a loose cannon and constant liability. If Trelawney’s second prophecy wasn’t enough of a good time, the Quidditch World Cup should have been the time to release key details. Had it happened in Prisoner of Azkaban, I’m not sure we would have Sirius Black’s character built in the same way, but it might also not have cost Sirius his life.”
So I guess general feelings for Book 3 and Book 4 there. Get more details.
Micah: Zachary said,
“Dumbledore should’ve broken the ice right after Prisoner of Azkaban. Harry just witnessed the confession of Peter Pettigrew and helped spring his godfather from the clink. Having some knowledge of the ever-looming threat would’ve sharpened his focus on Defense Against the Dark Arts even more. When they realized the cup in Goblet of Fire was a Portkey, he may have been able to anticipate what’s next, and could’ve possibly saved Cedric as well as postpone the return. I do believe the remaining weight of it all should’ve been told during the summer between years four and five.”
Laura: Brandy says,
“I want to say Book 1 as an answer to Harry’s question, and it could have been done in an age-appropriate way, then each year the reason could be added to. If first year is too young, then after Harry’s name comes out of the Goblet. Both Snape and Dumbledore are going to know he didn’t put his name in the Goblet, nor asked someone else to. This would give some reason to why it happened, and it may have made Harry weary of people. But barring either of those two answers, it should have been revealed when Harry first comes to headquarters in Order of the Phoenix. Then he would have context to what was happening, and, ‘fingers crossed,’ seek out an adult.”
Yeah, I think it’s a great point.
Andrew: John said, “At the start of Book 5 after Harry processed the death of Cedric and Dumbledore researched everything.” Yeah, he was owed more information then.
Eric: Yeah, I’d agree with that. Billy also agrees:
“In the summer between four and five. Harry needed some time to process everything that happened at the end of the tournament, but it would have solved so many things for him to know what’s going on before the Dementors appeared in Little Whinging.”
Micah: And Ning Xi says they also agree.
“I think he should’ve done it at the start of Order of the Phoenix. Give it some time for the events of Goblet of Fire to settle and prepare him for what’s ahead. I’m pretty sure Dumbledore could have found some way around Voldemort and Harry’s link. I think Harry could’ve worked harder at Occulmency if he had more context than in the book.”
Laura: Totally. Darin says,
“It really should have been right after the end of Task 3 for the Triwizard Tournament. With Voldemort having returned, Dumbledore knew that he would want to know the prophecy in its entirety. Instead, he let Harry stew all summer, making things much worse all around.”
Andrew: Sherry said,
“I’d say at the end of fourth year, when Riddle has gotten a body. First and second year, Harry was probably too young to hear the prophecy, but once Riddle was back, it was just about criminal for Dumbledore to keep the truth from him. This maniac gets him into a dangerous tournament, kidnaps him, tortures him, and yet the one who knows why doesn’t bother to tell Harry. It’s not right.”
Eric: I’ll tell you what, though; here is a complete alternate opinion to the ones we’ve so far shared. AJ says,
“I vote ‘no change’ on Dumbledore’s cadence of sharing. It’s a crucial part of showing us there is no perfect authority out there to rely on. Besides, the Dumbledore in Harry’s head at King’s Cross is the wisest Dumbledore in the book anyway. Cryptic hints from Snape would have been interesting additions.”
Okay. No change!
Micah: Barry says,
“I kind of think the way Dumbledore didn’t share everything until Harry sees it in Snape’s memories and talks to imagination Dumbledore at the end of Book 7 was the move, because it kept Harry motivated to find the Horcruxes and carry out the mission. BUT, if I had to change it, perhaps having Hermione figure it out in Book 7 and giving her theory to Harry when they were camping would have been cool, and he could have started thinking about it sooner. Maybe it could have been hidden in the rune book Dumbledore gave her, or she just pieced it together herself.”
Eric: Ooh, I like the idea of Dumbledore giving Hermione a quest.
Laura: And I mean, per usual, Harry would just be like, “No, Hermione, that’s stupid.” [laughs] I mean, we’re about to see him do that in Half-Blood Prince. And then Catherine says,
“As a parent, I empathize with Dumbledore. I think my answers before being a parent and after would be vastly different. I agree with Dumbledore that at 11, Harry was too young to understand the gravity of what he would be expected to do. Learning you would need to die, but only at the opportune moment, would be incredibly traumatizing for a child. And in subsequent years when dealing with the witnessed death of Cedric and Sirius, I would have feared overwhelming Harry. There is no ‘good’ moment to tell Harry everything, but probably the ‘best’ moment would have been after Cedric’s death. It’s possible more information could have prevented Sirius’s death, and Dumbledore could have created a small amount of hope out of a horrible situation by telling Harry his suspicions about the implications of using Harry’s blood in Voldemort’s rebirth.”
Andrew: It was a great question to ask, and great answers, everyone. Thank you so much.
Laura: Thanks, y’all.
Andrew: The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We ask a new question every week, and we invite you to become a member of our community by visiting Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledging. Don’t forget, if you pledge at the Slug Club level, you will be eligible to receive this year’s physical gift, so this is the best time to become a member. Patreon.com/MuggleCast; pledge at the Slug Club level, and we will get the yearbook out to you in the fall. If you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and next week, we’ll discuss Chapter 38 of Book 5, “The Second War Begins.” Don’t forget to visit MuggleCast.com for quick access to all the information that we share today; our social media channels you can also find links to, our contact form, all of that. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for everyone’s favorite game show, Quizzitch!
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s question was: In this chapter, the statues of the Fountain of Magical Brethren spring to life to help save the day, but in the summer of 1985, widespread panic occurred when statues in County Cork, Ireland began to seemingly move on their own. What were those statues of? The correct answer is that these were known as the Marion Statues; they’re of the Virgin Mary, and there were a few others said to move that were of other saints or holy figures. Only 12% of people with the correct answer say they didn’t look it up, so that was a hard one. Don’t worry; this next one’s a little bit easier. But here are this week’s winners: Can Any Geezer Portkey to Hogwarts?; DobbyIsFree; Don’t turn your back, don’t look away, and don’t blink!; Don’t blink, blink and you’re dead; Elizabeth K.; Gryffinpuff from Sweden; I Love September for Many Reasons but Mostly Cause I’m Getting Married; Jugson, the forgotten Death Eater from Chapter 36; Laura’s personal Umbrella Academy heckler; Lynn the Allomancer; Saint-like Bort Voldemort; The Angels have the Phone Box; and of course, our friend, Tofu Tom. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In this chapter, Harry smashes a number of Dumbledore’s silver trinkets. Speaking of small silver things, the original player tokens for Parker Brothers’ bestselling Monopoly board game were the battleship, the boot, a cannon, thimble, top hat, and iron. Later, a dog was added. Here’s the question: What breed of dog is the dog token in Monopoly? Any dog lovers should know this.
Micah: Aww, it’s a nice tribute to Sirius.
Eric: I’m glad you caught that. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on our website – maybe checking out transcripts or must-listens and all that – just click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.
Andrew: We’re about to record a new bonus MuggleCast, and we’ll be looking at what could a Harry Potter hotel in the Muggle world look like? An all-inclusive, immersive experience. What would that look like, if Universal were to put that together? We’ve got some plans, and we’re going to have fun discussing that over on our Patreon this week, so don’t miss that bonus MuggleCast. We record two bonus episodes every month. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everyone!
Eric, Laura, and Micha: Bye.