Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #720, At The Beep, Slay (OOTP Chapter 38, The Second War Begins)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books, the movies, the upcoming TV show, the upcoming audiobook series, so make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode with your Harry Potter friends. We release new episodes every Tuesday, and this week, be nice and help Luna find her missing possessions before the end of term, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “The Second War Begins.” It’s the final chapter in our Order of the Phoenix reread, and boy, is it a satisfying conclusion, if I don’t say so myself. Helping us with today’s discussion is one of our listeners and Slug Club supporters, Ivana. Welcome, Ivana.
Ivana: Hello. Thank you.
Andrew: Yeah, thank you for joining us. Can we get your fandom ID, please?
Ivana: Absolutely. So my favorite book is Prisoner of Azkaban, my favorite movie is also Prisoner of Azkaban, I am a very proud Hufflepuff, my Ilvermorny House is Pukwudgie, and my Patronus is a pine marten.
Andrew: Do you have a favorite chapter in Order of the Phoenix?
Ivana: Ooh, I do, yes. Chapter 1, actually: “Dudley Demented.” This chapter scratched every itch in my brain when I first read it. It was that checkup on Harry, and it gave this really crystal clear image of where he was at. And I just liked how we got this notion of not only has he been growing so fast, I think physically, but also mentally he probably had done a lot of growth. So I just really enjoyed the layers to that first chapter as our intro back.
Andrew: Awesome. I’m feeling a little sad now, though; we missed your favorite chapter, having you on for your favorite chapter, by 37 episodes. Oh well.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Better luck next time.
Ivana: You know what? This totally makes up for it. It’s okay.
Micah: On our next Chapter by Chapter…
Andrew: Yes, Ivana, you can come on.
Eric: If you do subscribe to the ring theory of Harry Potter composition, the first and the last chapter should have a lot in common there. After all, the Dursleys are in this one, so it’s the next best.
Andrew: True.
Ivana: I’ll take it.
Andrew: Well, thank you for joining us today, Ivana, and thanks for your support on Patreon. We really appreciate you.
Ivana: Oh my gosh, I appreciate you guys.
News
Andrew: Well, we have a couple of news items to discuss. First, a sad story: Harry Potter movie production designer Stuart Craig passed away at the age of 83 last week. He wasn’t exactly well known amongst Harry Potter fans because he was a behind-the-scenes crew member, but here at MuggleCast, we would frequently name check him when talking about the movies, because he truly designed the look and feel of the Harry Potter films. And not just the movies; Rowling actually once said of agreeing to creating Wizarding World theme parks, “The key thing for me was that, if there was to be a theme park, that Stuart Craig would be involved, more than involved, that he would pretty much design it. Because I love the look of the films; they really mirror what’s been in my imagination for all these years.” I think that sums it up for me. He really is responsible for the wizarding world we imagine in our heads today.
Micah: He was really the life blood of the Harry Potter series in many ways. And I think back to going to the Studio Tour last year, and just walking through all of his sets, it’s amazing what he was able to create, and I think it’s understandable why the author wanted him to play such a major role in the creation of the Wizarding World in Orlando.
Andrew: I also have to imagine that his thumbprints will be within the Harry Potter TV show set designs as well…
Laura: I’m sure.
Andrew: … because obviously they’re going to pull inspiration from the films, so his legacy will live on in the TV series.
Eric: Yeah, and I’m sure that there were angles and corners of the sets that we didn’t get to see a lot of, but which had to be fully developed because it was a 3D space for everybody to walk into. So that’s actually part of the joy of the Studio Tour, walking around, too, and seeing just those extra little angles. But Stuart Craig did all of that, and it’s really impressive to see what he came up with.
Andrew: So rest in peace, Stuart Craig. And in some other news, the forthcoming Harry Potter audiobooks, which feature a full voice cast – they’re going to be released on Audible starting November 4 – has announced more cast members. Keira Knightley will play Umbridge, Kit Harrington will play Lockhart, Mark Addy will play Hagrid, Iwan Rheon will play Lupin, Gemma Whelan will play Sprout, James McAvoy will play Mad-Eye Moody, and more cast members to be announced in the weeks ahead. Pretty stacked cast.
Laura: That is cool.
Eric: I’ve got to say…
Micah: So Laura, James McAvoy has finally made his way after our… was it a bonus MuggleCast we did where we talked about actors who were initially considered? Wasn’t he up for young Tom Riddle?
Laura: Yep, that’s right. He was, among… God, there was somebody else that we were very surprised about, and I’m forgetting who it was.
Micah: Michael Cera, but that was for Jacob Kowalski.
Laura: Thank you!
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: That was the weirdest potential casting, yeah.
Eric: With all of these HBO actors – Mark Addy, Iwan Rheon, Kit Harrington – all who were very memorable roles on Game of Thrones, I thought this was actually TV show casting announcements, and I was getting really prepared to freak out about still no Peeves…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: … but it turns out this is for the audiobook, so I was like, “Okay.” But still, all of these actors that were on HBO’s long-running Game of Thrones are now in these audiobooks, and I just…
Laura: Well, we’ve already seen one example of somebody who is playing the same role in the audiobooks and in the TV show, so you never know.
Andrew: That’s true.
Eric: Ahh. Well, the funniest thing about Kit Harrington is he was surrounded by all of those actors who bleached their hair blond, and Lockhart, who he’s playing in the audiobook, is a blond. So I think it’s funny he’s finally getting the blond treatment, if only in our imaginations.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Do you know what’s really funny? He’ll still be playing a character who knows nothing.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Wow!
Andrew: “You know nothing, Lockhart!”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Zing! Absolute zing.
Micah: Look at you, connecting the threads between Harry Potter and Game of Thrones.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s great.
Laura: Who would have thought?
Micah: What’s exciting about this, though, is that it seems to be a slow play, right? And this is very similar to what they are doing with the TV show, where we’re slowly getting bits and pieces of casting…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … and I think they really want to draw people into these audiobooks, because there isn’t that big of a time gap, right, Andrew, between when all of them are going to be released?
Andrew: Yeah, they’re going to be released a month apart, starting in November, these audiobooks will be. It is insane as Harry Potter fans to be living in this period right now, or to be a fan during this period where we’re getting casting announcements for a TV show, and this fully fleshed out, fully realized audiobook series, which is going to have a unique actor for every character. It’s going to have sound effects, a score, the whole nine yards. I’ve been very excited for this project, and with each round of casting announcements, I continue to be very excited. Like I said, Sorcerer’s Stone will be released on November 4, and then the following books will each be released a month apart from there, so Chamber of Secrets will come out in December, Prisoner of Azkaban in January, so on and so forth.
Laura: Awesome. Well, that’s really exciting, and I think just gives us even more to look forward to in the world of Harry Potter. Today we are going to be discussing Chapter 38 of Order of the Phoenix, but first wanted to give a quick plug for this year’s physical gift for our Slug Club patrons over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and it is the MuggleCast 20th anniversary retrospective, a.k.a. the MuggleCast yearbook. And this was so much fun to put together. It is literally a real book. It features original writing from all four of us hosts that really chronicles all of the last 20 years, of all of our growth, but also the growth of the show and the many evolutions that we’ve all been through and that the show’s been through too. You’re going to find behind-the-scenes sneak peeks at experiences that we’ve had, but also old photos which I know, Micah, I think you said last week, some of which we probably should have kept buried. I think they’re actually very wholesome.
Andrew: They are.
Laura: I think there are some really nice, cute little pictures back there of our days staying up all night reading Harry Potter books in hotel rooms because we were those kinds of teenagers. This gift goes out to our Slug Club patrons; a reminder that we send you a new physical gift every year. Head on over to Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge at the Slug Club level to receive your yearbook. We actually did extend the deadline to receive this, so the deadline to pledge is September the 18th, which is right around the corner. So don’t miss out on this. I think you’ll really love it.
Andrew: Yeah, this is the best time of year to become a patron. Ivana, did you fill out the form?
Ivana: I filled out the form. I also informed my daughter that this was coming out, because she’s obsessed with all of you…
Laura: Oh my God!
Ivana: … and it’s really hilarious and adorable. And I told her that this was coming out; she goes, “Oh, good. We’ll read it at bedtime.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Bedtime reading! Okay, yeah!
Laura: That’s adorable.
Eric: If you break it down into the sections, yeah, I can see that.
Andrew: Awesome, awesome. Thanks, everyone. Remember, please pledge and fill out the form by September 18.
Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner
Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 38, “The Second War Begins.” [emotionally] The final chapter. Oh, my favorite book coming to an end.
Eric: Aww. Well, we did last discuss this… we’ve been here before, Andrew. Don’t cry because it’s gone. We’ve been here before. We’ll eventually circle back around, I’m sure, 20 years from now.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: We last discussed this chapter of the book on Episode 475 of MuggleCast; it was titled “Denial and Acceptance.” We can do better than that this time. That one aired on July 28, 2020, and here’s the clip from it.
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.
Ron: What the…?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 475.
Micah: So Harry continues to make the rounds, and I think Andrew or somebody mentioned this earlier, where it’s like that you see just how things are happening, how things are going on despite what’s happened to Sirius, despite the trauma that Harry has been through. And it’s almost like… I thought of the end of a video game, when you beat the video game and you’re going around to all the different people.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I think Zelda, like, “Oh, there are the Gorons, and there are the Zoras,” and they’re all celebrating. That’s kind of what this is like.
Andrew: You saved it! You saved Hyrule!
[Eric and Micah laugh]
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.
[Bell dings]
Eric: Never too late for a Zelda reference.
Micah: Zelda references are always appropriate.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: Well, this is the final chapter of Order of the Phoenix, and it makes sense that we’re going to be tying up some loose ends, and let’s start with our favorite politician, Minister for Magic Cornelius Fudge. And Fudge starts out this chapter in his traditional way of fumbling, bumbling… the wizarding world really needs a firm hand right now, and it needs some solid leadership, knowing that Voldemort is, in fact, back. I wanted to ask the group, how do we feel about the way that Fudge is addressing Voldemort’s return? We see this through an article in the Daily Prophet. He even refers to him as “Lord Thingy.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: And he says, “The wizard styling himself.” I read this; I thought my ebook was hacked. I was like, “This can’t… what is this?” I don’t know what that even means. “The wizard styling himself”? It doesn’t make…
Laura: What a baby.
Andrew: Well, I think it just speaks to how incompetent Fudge is right at the start of this. He could have played this right from the beginning, but instead, he doesn’t even… he’s afraid of even using the name Voldemort. And I think back to the movie quote, “Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself.”
Eric: Well, and it’s not like there’s a well-known public alternative to saying the name, because not many people know Tom Riddle was Voldemort, and so it’s not like the Ministry has this alternate name, so “styling himself”… he’s been Lord Voldemort as long as these people have been afraid of Lord Voldemort. At this point it should have worn off; the shock of saying it as an adult man should have worn off a little bit. But it does illustrate, to your point, Andrew, exactly how incompetent and ill-prepared Fudge is for this. One wonders how things were handled the first time Voldemort came around and what that leadership was like, but it really just serves to underscore that Fudge is in the wrong place. And I’ve got to say, I think Fudge gets off easy. I think the fact that he’s only sacked – we find out at the beginning of the next book – is too easy for all of the incompetence, and if people weren’t scared out of their wits for everything that’s… the revelation that’s occurred, I think that there would have been real inquiries, months-long public trials of different officials that covered up evidence of Voldemort’s return or downplayed it, and there would be large public hearings, I think, across all of the members of government, but people are scared and distracted now, so they’ve got to go hide.
Ivana: It was really interesting… now, it’s been a long time since I’ve done this reread, and this hit really hard. It was just between the mounting energy of this war that everyone’s now kind of faced with, and if they’ve been trying to ignore it, they really have to put this to mind now. That and the delivery of the announcement by this man who’s just been shoving forced ignorance down everyone’s throat, and the wizarding public’s throat, to the intentional misinformation that he’s just enabled. I just was kind of like, “Oh, this is a very familiar social dynamic,” and it was really interesting.
Laura: Great point.
Eric: Yeah, I wonder if the pamphlets that the Ministry is sending out have anything to do with bleach in them or something for defensive magic.
Micah: Eric, you somewhat alluded to this earlier in terms of Fudge and accountability, and I’m curious, do we think that he should have been held more accountable for just the sheer chaos and deaths that occurred during the time that he ignored the fact that Voldemort was back? I’m thinking Cedric Diggory; I’m thinking of what happened at the Quidditch World Cup. I’m sure there’s other examples that we can point to, things that went on behind the scenes that maybe we never even learned about, but you could continue to put blame at his feet for what is to follow, because he denied it for such a long period of time, the fact that Voldemort was allowed to rise back to power with little to no interference. I think you have to put some blame at the foot of Fudge as well for what’s to happen in Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows.
Laura: Yep.
Eric: Yeah, everybody is much more vulnerable than they would have been this time a year ago if Fudge had done what was right instead of what was easy. So I do think he’s ultimately culpable for some deaths that will occur, even the ones that haven’t yet, because of just the state of everything. He gave people the opportunity, and through suppression, through control of the media, he gave people the opportunity to not believe something that would have helped them, and that’s actually, I think, very criminal, if not a particular crime.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, he also allowed himself to be influenced, both socially but also monetarily, by people who have just been revealed to be Death Eaters the entire time…
Eric: [laughs] There’s that, too.
Laura: … so via Fudge, people like Lucius Malfoy have had so much direct influence and access at the Ministry that that’s also had an impact on the way that the Ministry has dictated its policy around all of this, which is to say, “Nothing to see here.”
Eric: And that would get an inquiry, too, because Lucius Malfoy is now finally facing consequences for pretty much the first time ever. He kind of got off the first time during the first war; now he’s actually supposedly in Azkaban. So yeah, any investigative journalist would be like, “Okay, so Lucius was always seen about 15 steps away from Fudge. What were the policies that were enacted and how did they benefit Lucius’s fellow Death Eaters, or Voldemort, even though we weren’t expecting it at the time?”
Andrew: And prosecuting him is something that should have happened, but now is not the right time. I’m not sure if that was your question, Micah, exactly, but there will come a time for this, but not right now when Voldemort has returned and everybody sees that he has. It would be too much of a distraction to be criticizing him right now, I think.
Ivana: That was…
Micah: Yeah, I… oh, go ahead.
Ivana: Sorry, that was along the lines of what I was thinking, because it must have… the upheaval of this situation. And then two, I wonder if people are thinking, “What’s the lesser of the two evils?” Because we have the very real evil that is the big evil, and then kind of left with this really questionable person in charge. So I wonder if it was a situation and conversations of that nature; it’s like, “Not now?”
Eric: It’s possible the government volun-told Fudge to step down. Like, “Yeah, nobody’s career survives this, and we’re going to get somebody else in,” and so he resigns before the uproar can really grow.
Micah: Which is the ultimate embarrassment for him, because he’s been worried for so long that he was going to be upstaged by Dumbledore, and that’s exactly what ends up happening in an indirect sort of way. I don’t think Dumbledore is intentionally trying to upstage him, but in fact, with how things play out at the end of Order of the Phoenix, that’s exactly what happens. So not only is Fudge inspiring confidence in his constituents, but the government is going to put out pamphlets…
Andrew: Oh!
Micah: … so everybody, rest assured; you’re going to get a nice little booklet delivered to your home that’s going to tell you all about how you can fend off Dementors and Death Eaters, and hey, even the Dark Lord himself should he show up at your doorstep. I mean, come on. What good is this? This is typical government fodder.
Andrew: Will Fudge be doing signings of the pamphlets? Book signings?
[Micah laughs]
Eric: Oh, gosh. Well, he’s going to have… there’s going to be a book plate, and people are going to be able to put it anywhere that they want.
Andrew: You can place it where you want!
Eric: But no, I tend to think that this is actually going to be a decent pamphlet, because it has to be, right? The Ministry will absolutely not still be in power next season if they don’t fix their issue as best as they possibly can. And so I think they got a couple of Aurors together who are like, “This is the best, easiest, most accessible magic that you can practically use.” I find it hilarious that Dolores Umbridge, Senior Undersecretary of the Minister, spent all year not teaching useful magic, and now the Ministry has to, in order to save face, put out a pamphlet of defensive magic you can do at home.
Andrew: That’s the rub. That’s the insane part.
Laura: Yeah. I wish I could feel confident in the idea that the pamphlet will be any good, but I don’t know. I mean, I only have real life examples to draw off of, like even on a state and local basis, when you have government really scrambling to try and get resources out. There are so many great, dedicated public servants who work their asses off and do a really great job of it, but so often these types of things are so constrained in terms of resources that it can be really hard for those things to actually move the needle, especially when they go out as late as this is going out.
Micah: It’s almost too little, too late, and it’s not something that I visualize in the wizarding world as being helpful. Yeah, sure, it probably moves, and there are pictures and demonstrations and things like that…
Eric: Oh, that would be cool!
Micah: … but really, how effective is it going to be? And Ivana, I want you to jump in here.
Ivana: It felt dismissive to me, and I kept thinking about those pamphlets you get from when you go and sit through one of those timeshare meetings, except they don’t get the vacation out of this; they just get a scrambling government structure. And I just wondered, too, what’s the time frame? Does anyone know? Do they know? Is it going to be a scrambling situation where they’re trying to get something together, to give people to give some peace of mind? Is that going to be a false peace of mind? It was just very interesting.
Micah: Totally agree. And I was curious, are there any comparisons we could draw to the recent pandemic, and the way that that was handled when we see maybe how Fudge is reacting to things, how the government is choosing to respond? Anything come to mind?
Eric: I don’t have a reference to the most recent pandemic, but in 1951 the US government…
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: I love how you have a reference to something…
Andrew: “I don’t have any lived experience here, but let me go back to before I was born.”
Eric: No, I mentioned this on the show before, a long time ago. Duck and cover. Does anybody know about this? It was to protect yourself from the atomic bomb. “Don’t worry, kids, Bert the Turtle is here to tell you to duck and cover.” It involved getting under a desk to protect yourself from an atomic bomb, and that was officially government-sanctioned advice. Probably not super useful, but it solved some problems in that it, I guess, was the government’s attempt at actually addressing rather than ignoring an issue.
Laura: Just giving people something to do to help prevent panic.
Eric: Right, that’s the other thing it does, is suppresses panic. So I don’t know, maybe… I love, Ivana, you mentioned the timeshare meeting, but maybe they ring a bell when you do your first time Shield Charm successfully. That would be very encouraging. Yeah, I don’t know. I think that the pamphlets could be useful, but I think for the reasons you stated, Laura, I think you’re right that the resources restrain, and they probably won’t be very good, actually. But the most important thing for the government to do right now is tell the truth, and that is ultimately what they’re doing. The best time for them to do that was last year; the second best time is now. So I’m hopeful that at least people will practice their own vigilance about all of this.
Micah: Well, and I think it’s important, though, that Fudge be able to say Voldemort’s name, going back to what we were talking about earlier, because the fact that he’s unable to do that, I think, still signals maybe there’s a little bit of doubt in the back of his mind that Voldemort has actually returned.
Andrew: Maybe the pamphlet should have a pronunciation guide. How to pronounce Voldemort’s name so you can say it loud and proud. Vol-de-mort!
Ivana: A sticker chart. [laughs]
Micah: Or just call him the Dark Lord.
Eric: Well, it’s just…
Andrew: Eh, that’s just generous. He likes that. We’ve got to call him something he won’t like.
Eric: Like the Medium Gray Lord.
Micah: Half-Blood?
Andrew: Half-Blood.
Laura: Ooh, Lord Half-Blood. There we go.
Eric: I’m thinking to Harry’s first impression of Scrimgeour, right? That he can easily understand why somebody like Scrimgeour would be chosen. Scrimgeour is a man of action, a war hero, former Auror… he would have no trouble saying the name, and that’s why the ebb and flow of politics is this way. You get a guy who can’t even name the threat properly, kick him out of office, get his ass out of there, and bring in somebody who’s not afraid of the threat.
Andrew: Say it out loud!
Eric: Somebody who projects confidence.
Andrew: Edward is not afraid. Bella is not afraid. Say it, out loud.
Eric: Vampire.
Andrew: Yes.
[Ivana laughs]
Micah: Well, we do see some of the tactics implemented in the early part of Half-Blood Prince, because we pay a visit to Professor Slughorn, and he’s completely ransacked this house he’s staying at, and he’s disguised himself to keep himself safe from the Death Eaters. So I wonder if that was in the pamphlet. “Turn yourself into a sofa, if all else fails.”
Ivana: “Have you tried transfiguration?”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Yeah. There is at least one entity that has done an about face as it relates to Harry and Dumbledore, and that is the Daily Prophet. They are back in the good graces of the Boy Who Lived.
Andrew: Yeah, and we learn that The Quibbler has sold their interview that was already published with Harry to the Prophet. And Luna is very excited about this…
Micah: Cha-ching.
Andrew: Yeah! But I’m thinking Harry should have granted the Daily Prophet an exclusive interview of their own, but Harry could have set some conditions. You don’t want them to pay for an interview; that’s bad. But how about the conditions are something like, “I’ll talk to you, Prophet, but you are going to publish my fully unedited interview with you.” And in that he could go off on the Prophet and Fudge, and sing the praises of Dumbledore, and it all has to be published, every word of it. And/or he has a condition where Dumbledore gets to speak to the Prophet, too, and again, it would be a full, unedited interview, or maybe just a statement from Dumbledore.
Laura: Yeah, but that’s not as sexy. It’s not as sexy to publish something that calls out the paper that it’s printed in. To them, they want to run with the attention-grabbing headline that came with the original Quibbler interview.
Micah: And it gives legitimacy to the Quibbler.
Ivana: Good for the Lovegoods. Go on your vacation. I just can’t get past this plot hole that has driven me crazy forever, because they will just mention that Dumbledore is Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot, and then… what does that mean?
[Andrew laughs]
Ivana: What is a day in the life of Dumbledore as the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot? I just… I would like to back that, personally, and would like to see that.
Andrew: Is it just a status symbol type of thing, maybe? It’s just a title?
Ivana: Right? Or does it do something? Because I feel like he could have just gone to this probably really important panel of magical humans and been like, “Hey, that guy that was doing a bunch of really awful stuff, he’s up to those shenanigans again. Do you think maybe we could do something?” So I don’t know. It’s just… what does it mean, and what does it do, and what purpose does it serve?
Micah: Because you would assume that they would all be, for the most part, contemporaries of his, right? That they would believe him if he, in fact, brought this to them.
Ivana: Right.
Micah: Good point.
Eric: Yeah, I was looking up… because there’s something… the Wizengamot is a play on a Witengemot, I think it’s called; it’s advisors to the king. So it is like an extra court body that advises in a kingly capacity. But I like the idea that Dumbledore probably had a list of demands for Fudge, and one of them was like, “You kicked me out of this? Well, now I’m back, baby.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I’m genuinely curious what it is that they actually do, because it’s not mentioned at all, to your point.
Andrew: It’s not like a Supreme Court. We should just pretend it’s a Supreme Court type of organization.
Eric: That would be neat, yeah.
Ivana: In my head it is.
Micah: Well, I think what we’re supposed to be led to in all of this is that Dumbledore is being fully reinstated across the board, right?
Andrew: Yes.
Micah: Everything that he’s been removed from, including Hogwarts, he is now officially able to return.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “I’m back, baby!”
Micah: So we have a few more loose ends to tie up here with… well, first, one of our favorite characters. I know everybody loves Fudge, but nobody loves Fudge more than they love Umbridge, and we get to see her in this final chapter. We learn that Dumbledore went into the Forbidden Forest to rescue her from the centaurs. I’m curious, how do we imagine that conversation going down? What did he have to do to convince the centaurs to release Umbridge?
Ivana: I will never forget reading this for the first time, in that when… [laughs] I always just had this very mafia scene in my head of Dumbledore kind of going to get her and having this very Godfather talk with her. [imitating the Godfather] “You come to me with Dumbledore’s Army…”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: [imitating the Godfather] “You have something that I need.”
Andrew: [imitating the Godfather] “You want to continue enjoying the forest? Hand over that woman.”
Ivana: But I just… I don’t know, I have this very… him in this very intimidating form. And I wonder sometimes if she does this intentionally, that we don’t get these moments of Dumbledore’s probably really, really scary side. These big battles with him and Voldemort, yes, we did get that, but how often do we actually truly get the things that happen behind the closed door, behind the curtain with him? And we don’t really ever know, what is he like in these situations?
Micah: This is the real Dumble-Damn.
Andrew: Dumble-damn! He just took me down.
Eric: I think he’s dangerous. I can see the centaurs just handing her over at this point, because this is way different than everything… all the beef they have with the wizarding government and wizards as a species is way different when the most powerful wizard that ever lived, who also is like the landlord of the land that you’re occupying, can make things real miserable for you, because he’s competent and determined, and is like, “Hey, I know she probably deserved whatever happened here, but I need her back, because that’s just how things are going to roll,” and them being like, “Oh, all right.” I can’t see anybody fighting Dumbledore, because you’ve seen how other creatures and other characters everywhere have just the utmost respect for him. And I am reminded, they do attend his funeral, don’t they? Or they shoot arrows?
Micah: Shoot arrows.
Eric: So there’s some level of respect there that we just have no grasp of. But I think it’s really badass that he went in after Umbridge. He didn’t need to do that.
Andrew: Maybe he said, “Remember my last,” and they knew what he was talking about.
Laura: Ohh.
Eric: They knew what that meant. He sent a Howler. He was up in the office just sending Howlers to everybody that wronged him.
Andrew: [laughs] Sending “Remember my last” to everybody.
Micah: I do love this idea of him being this intimidating person. We see it just a few chapters prior, when he enters the Department of Mysteries and Harry notes just how he never saw Dumbledore look that way before. So I wonder if the centaurs got a little taste of that.
Andrew: You also think about when he went into the forest. There was no time to waste, so you have to think he had something really good to take care of the situation quick and get back to the school. So he was also in a mood, too, when this was going down, and that’s extra Dumble-Damny, you have to imagine.
Micah: [laughs] So most of the early part of this chapter takes place in the hospital wing, and that’s where we see Umbridge. And Ron is taking advantage of her state of mind; he’s making these very soft clip-clopping noises with his tongue, and we see how Dolores reacts to that. And it’s fair to say that Umbridge suffered some level of abuse at the hands of the centaurs. In Greek mythology, centaurs are known to be violent creatures, particularly towards women. And so we could dive deep into what could have happened to her; I think we can, just for the time being, leave it up to the imagination. But it is kind of icky to look back on Ron doing this, isn’t it? And the way that Hermione and others respond to it.
Ivana: It’s so weird in these moments, specifically with her writing because, wow, what a difference. I think this day and age, if anyone wrote something like that at this point, we would be under a microscope.
Eric: And Hermione and Ginny laughing about it too. Like, have you no common concerns here? It just… yeah, it’s bad.
Laura: It also makes me wonder if the kids are just unaware of what might have happened to Umbridge.
Andrew: Definitely.
Micah: I think that’s probably right.
Laura: Perhaps if they had more clarity about what happened, they wouldn’t be laughing, but it’s like, ignorance is bliss, and so to them, they can just think, “Oh, haha, the centaurs scared her.”
Eric: Clippity-clop. Clippity-clop.
Ivana: Are they just also so traumatized that they’re completely desensitized to other people’s trauma?
Laura: True.
Eric: That’s true too.
Andrew: I think they just can’t even imagine what seriously could have happened to Umbridge. They’re young. They don’t really know. I mean, they’ve witnessed some terrible things in their lives already, but… there’s speculation on the Internet about what happened to Umbridge, and Rowling has never confirmed it one way or the other, but you can assume some awful things happen, and the kids wouldn’t even really be aware of these types of things, I think.
Micah: Right.
Eric: I want to shout out in our Discord, there’s a few more theories about what happened to Umbridge. Michele says, “They were probably ready to give Umbridge back after five minutes with her.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Forty says, “They were so sick of her ‘hems’ they asked him to take her,” and Gaby suggested… it’s the GIF of Michael Gambon as Dumbledore backing Harry into the trophy, shouting his head off, “Harry, did you put your name in the Goblet of Fire?” So I think he just tackled them. Yeah, he just brute force… just tackled all the centaurs down.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: He did his best Hagrid, right? Doesn’t Hagrid take down a bunch of Aurors earlier on in this book?
Eric: Oh, yeah, just brushes them aside.
Andrew: [imitating Michael Gambon] “Centaurs, did you take my DADA teacher from my castle?”
Eric: “Did you take my…?” Ah, what is she?
Micah: Maybe Dumbledore brought Grawp with him. But Umbridge is actually chased out of the school by Peeves…
Andrew: Good.
Micah: … and the student body with basically no help from the other Heads of House. McGonagall, she’s incapacitated to a degree; Flitwick could care less, probably, at the end of the day. So I’m actually very interested to see this Max’d.
[“Max that” sound effect plays]
Andrew: Yeah. In this scene, Harry decides not to tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy because “He was not ready to see their expressions when he told them that he must be either murderer or victim.” And to me, this sounds like Dumbledore just a chapter or two ago. Not saying that Harry wasn’t justified in not telling Ron and Hermione, but Harry feels like there’s going to be a right time to present this information, and now is not the time to do it. So I don’t know if Dumbledore is rubbing off on him, or I don’t know if you all should say, “You know what, Dumbledore? You actually were right. The timing is everything.” But it’s just interesting. So close to Dumbledore’s tales last chapter, I guess it was.
Eric: Yeah, Harry is behaving in a way that is somehow still secretive, even though there shouldn’t be any secrets between his friends now, right? He has a chance to completely undo some of that distance that’s existed because of his mood, now that he knows also what his mood has been like, why his mood has been the way that it has. Clearly, he knows that Ron and Hermione would care to learn about the prophecy, but I think he’s also still processing so much from the last couple days that he doesn’t even know what he would say, or he’s not even prepared for their sympathy and concern, because he doesn’t know how he feels about it.
Micah: Right. Well, Harry is going to visit Hagrid now, and we’ll get to that in just a little bit. He seems to have had enough of the hospital wing. And on his way to Hagrid’s, he runs into a few people, one of which is Draco. And this encounter really is setting the table up for Half-Blood Prince, because Draco says to Harry, “I’m going to make you pay for what you’ve done to my father.” And that’s really what a lot of Half-Blood Prince is all about. Harry is… at the end of the day, in my mind, he’s not responsible for what happened to Lucius Malfoy.
Andrew: No!
Micah: And Lucius is an adult; he is responsible for his own actions. And I feel bad for Draco in this moment, I really do…
Andrew: Aww.
Micah: … because he’s just got nowhere else to turn, and he’s putting the blame on Harry. Harry has just lost his godfather, but I think it comes down to more of how it positions Draco in the larger spotlight of Hogwarts. He probably feels like he’s been made out to look in a pretty bad way because his father’s been arrested and sent to Azkaban.
Andrew: Yeah, I wouldn’t show my face in that school if I were him. Could we also lay down a bit of a foreshadow alert here? Does this feel foreshadowy, Micah?
[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]
Andrew: You were talking about setting the table for Half-Blood Prince.
Micah: I think so.
Ivana: Draco, I think, honestly was and still is one of my favorite characters in this book, because I think he… I always expected a redemption arc from him. I really thought that that was where she was going, like a full one. I think the end of the series does allude to that some mending may have happened, but in this scene, and up until this point, threats have always equaled power for Draco. And while he’s slowly been dabbling and taking more action than just threats, he’s literally about to step into this next year, and that’s going to change for him, and it’s not just going to be threats; it’s going to be action. And so this reread, I’m really curious to see what that power struggle and dynamic looks like within this character now.
Eric: Well, it is interesting, too, because the patriarch of his family, right? His dad was always there to project this demeanor of power and influence, and always so suave and has the best-looking robes, and Draco was able to coast on just being a kid whose dad was highly respected by the Minister.
Ivana: Sometimes I wonder, too, if him making all of these threats is in part because maybe he doesn’t entirely want to take action, but because he does have this type of family, and like you just mentioned, I wonder if that’s his way of trying to seem like he has more power and authority than he actually really wants to take and have.
Laura: I think that’s spot on.
Eric: Yeah, he’s not street smart. He’s never gotten his hands dirty at all, and he’s about to learn throughout the course of next year that it’s a lot worse than he thought. I think Draco is uniquely unqualified for some of that dirty work because of the projected air and all the way his dad has raised him. I think that if you had a dad who was a little bit more down to earth, a little bit more in the nitty gritty, and not this whole pomp and circumstance crap, then you would have a Draco who isn’t just verbal threats – which would be also horrifying – but you would have less of an adjustment period when it comes time to be… when he’s in a terrible situation in the beginning of the next book, and Draco has to spend all year trying to find his own way out of it.
Laura and Micah: Yeah.
Laura: He also doesn’t have the safety net of running to his daddy anymore, at least for now. So he can’t pull the “My father will hear about this” crap because…
Andrew: He could write him a letter.
Eric: You know, Narcissa is just as… “My mother will hear about this.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It may not sound as…
Micah: Doesn’t land the same, I think, for Draco. Although I wouldn’t mess with Narcissa.
Andrew: [in a nasally voice] “My father.”
Micah: Pretty much the remainder of this chapter is focused on Harry’s search for serious, serious comfort – emphasis on the serious. And there is this line in the chapter that I feel like we probably can all relate to. It said, “Whenever he was in company he wanted to get away, and whenever he was alone he wanted company.”
Eric: Mood.
Micah: It’s a mood. I feel like we’ve all probably been there at one time or the other.
Laura: Yeah. It’s when you don’t know what you want. Go ahead, Ivana.
Ivana: Grief is such a visceral experience, and reading him going through these motions was really emotional because I think as a reader, you’re kind of walking parallel to him through this and wanting just as badly as he wants to find this space to arrive where it has what he’s looking for. But I think for me, that’s what made it feel very real, because it is so relatable, because grief is really long, and we have to take this time to find what we need, not what we want. And I think later on, that is what he finds with Luna.
Eric: I agree.
Andrew: Yeah, and this is one of those things you read, and when you’re younger, it might just go right over your head, but now, as adults, with so many experiences good or bad in our lives, we can really relate to this. And when I read this line, I think about how as much as I might enjoy the company of others, there’s also a comfort in just curling up on the couch or in bed and just existing in your own brain; nobody has any expectations of you in person in the moment, and sometimes you envy that. While you’re… right now, I’m hanging out with y’all, having a good time, but in my head, I’ve also got that little voice thinking, “Couch… bed… can’t wait to be alone, not on screen…”
Micah: “Food.”
Andrew: Food! [laughs] Food most of all. Yeah, but I think about this… I experience this feeling a lot, where I just think about being curled up in bed, being with my own thoughts, not having to be on for others….
Eric: Yeah, to perform. Well, there’s that saying about getting older, that in your 30s, the only thing better than making plans is canceling plans.
Andrew: Oh, I love when somebody cancels plans. I go, “Oh, that’s so sad,” but in my head I’m like, “Woo!”
[Ivana and Micah laugh]
Ivana: “Oh no!”
Eric: “Oh, I have a night!” You can like people and still like your solitude from time to time.
Micah: It’s so true. And we see this from Harry; he just gets to a point where he can no longer stay in the hospital wing. He’s like, “I’m going to visit Hagrid,” because he just couldn’t stay any longer around Ron and Hermione, and then when he gets to Hagrid, he realizes he doesn’t want to be there either. And it’s like he’s trying to find this refuge that’s just… it’s not there. He eventually gets there a little bit later on the chapter; Ivana, you mentioned – it’s weird to be saying “Ivana” – his conversation with Luna.
[Andrew and Ivana laugh]
Micah: But just a little bit on Hagrid, because this is our, obviously, last chance to chat with him before Half-Blood Prince. And he gives us a little bit of an update on Grawp, and he looks like he’s doing better; Hagrid looks like all of his bruises are healing. But Hagrid just doesn’t know the right thing to say in this moment either. He relates to Sirius more as a peer than anything else, and he tries to tell Harry, “Look, Sirius would have wanted this. If he had to go out, he would want to have gone out fighting and defending you.” And I just don’t think that’s what Harry wanted to hear in that moment.
Eric: Not at all, but bless Hagrid for trying. I really think it is a special kind of sweet that Hagrid is trying to address it. He knows, I think, better than most people what grief and guilt looks like; think of all the stuff that must have happened when he got kicked out of Hogwarts those many years ago. So he’s trying to relate to Harry, and it’s a mark of a good friend. And Harry does Hagrid a little dirty. I mean, I think Hagrid would forgive him, but Harry just peaces out because he can’t. He can’t even with this guy.
Ivana: Did the narrator for when you guys listen…? I don’t know if you listen to this chapter also, but I listen to it as well, and when the narrator does Hagrid’s “Oh,” that got me in the soul, because you just… it really portrayed the sadness of him realizing that he didn’t say the right thing, and he wasn’t saying the right thing. That one hit.
Andrew: Aww.
Eric: Are you listening to a Jim Dale audiobook?
Ivana: Yeah.
Eric: Okay. I think I know what you’re talking about, then, because that’s the version I listen to, yeah.
Ivana: Oh my gosh.
Micah: So Harry high tails it from Hagrid’s, and he goes back up to the common room; he starts to pack for the ride home the next day, and while packing, he comes across the two-way mirror that Sirius gave him back at Christmas…
Andrew: Nooo!
Micah: … and it turns out that Harry had the means to communicate with Sirius all along. But I think we mentioned this when we did the Chapter by Chapter, when Harry first got the mirror and he noted that he would never use it because he didn’t want to risk Sirius getting in trouble leaving Grimmauld Place, and this hurt.
Laura: The irony.
Andrew: If he only knew that this option would have been way better than what he ended up having to do.
Ivana: This part broke me. The first time I read it, still now, you can just feel it. And when he believes that he’s going to talk to Sirius again, and he just… he knew it, and then he looks around to make sure no one’s there, and it just came across like this very simple, subliminal moment for him that he didn’t actually believe that. Because if we look at Harry and his behaviors, when his convictions are set, he’s not really someone to check for or… that moment made me feel like he didn’t actually truly believe that.
Laura: Yeah, he’s bargaining.
Eric: Right, that classic stage of grief.
Andrew: And it is such a heartbreaking scene because, like I was just saying a couple of minutes ago, this could have fixed a couple of major issues in the back half of this book. And when this revelation hits you, I think it would hit you like a ton of bricks: Sirius could have been alive, too, today.
Eric: Yeah, or reachable, right?
Andrew: Both.
Eric: The implication is that because Sirius didn’t take his mirror when he left Grimmauld Place to go to the Ministry real quick, I think the implication there is that had Sirius taken the mirror with him and had it on his person when he went through the veil, that maybe this crazy scheme of Harry’s might have worked, that he might still be able to reach him, because it’s like, “Ah no, nothing happened… because Sirius didn’t have his mirror on him.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It’s like, do you really think you’d be able to reach behind the veil between the living and the dead?
Andrew: Who knows, though? Who knows at this point?
Micah: You never know.
Eric: That’s what I’m saying!
Andrew: I mean, we still don’t know much about the veil, so…
Eric: I’m not making fun of Harry; I think this is the coolest idea ever, but it’s a shame it’s not to be.
Micah: And some of this is on Sirius, though, too, because when he first connected with him through Umbridge’s fireplace, he never tells Harry, “Hey, remember the mirror I gave you?”
Laura: Yeah, that’s true.
Eric: Right, he doesn’t push the issue. He could’ve.
Micah: He could’ve.
Laura: I do keep thinking about how sad that must have been for Sirius. How many times do we think he checked the mirror to be like, “Has Harry tried to call me?”
Andrew: Aww.
Micah: That’s heartbreaking.
Andrew: “Hello…” The Adele song.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Yeah, I wonder if his mirror says, like, “You have three missed messages” or something.
[Andrew and Ivana laugh]
Eric: Because it doesn’t work this way in Book 7, but it’s voice-activated.
Andrew: It would be cool if the equivalent of a voicemail with the mirror is just serving a look. “Please serve a look in 3, 2, 1…” and that you try to convey what you want to say.
Laura: Be real.
Andrew: Yeah, it’s time to be real, like Eric referenced last week and it went over my head.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: But yeah, you serve a look and then that’s the message you’re trying to convey. Like Sirius did a screaming face; “Uh-oh, I’d better call him back. He’s angry about something.”
Ivana: “When you hear the tone, slay.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “When you hear the tone, pose. Strike a pose.”
Micah: Well, speaking of the veil, Harry starts to think a little bit outside the box here, and he says, “Well, if nobody living can give me the answers that I need, I’m going to pursue somebody who is a ghost,” and he goes in search of Nearly Headless Nick. And what’s Harry really hoping to hear from Nick?
Eric: Harry is hoping to hear, “Ah, yes. I wondered, Harry, when you were going to come and find me, because I have a ghost door over here, and behind ghost door number one is your godfather! Yay!”
[Andrew laughs]
Ivana: Ding-ding-ding.
Eric: What blows my mind is that Nick was fearing this conversation.
Andrew: Yeah, because he must get it a lot, it sounds like. “Oh, another person who lost somebody; they’re going to come to me and ask me where all the ghosts are born,” if you will. I thought this was an interesting bit of lore, because we learn from Nick that you can choose whether or not you will come back as a ghost, and then that led me to think, why would you not want to come back as a ghost? And I figure you might not want to return because it could be painful for loved ones to see you maybe in this form, or you also might just not want to continue letting your legacy live on in this ghost form.
Micah: Yeah. I mean, I’m pretty sure that this conversation with Nick helps Harry to understand the finality of Sirius’s death. This is his last bit of hope, really, in trying to see, “Is there any glimmer, any chance, that Sirius is going to return in ghost form?” And the way that Nick responds to him leads us all to believe that that’s not going to happen.
Eric: Do we feel bad for Nick having to kind of handle Harry in this moment? It’s very clear to me that Nick does not want to be part of this conversation, and it’s not a pleasant subject, right? It’s not… I mean, Moaning Myrtle is a bit of an oddball; when you ask her how she died, she’s like, “Ooh, I’m excited to tell you.” Asking a ghost how they died is pretty… well, first of all, apparent; I’m thinking of the Bloody Baron. [laughs] But also, it’s probably rude, right? And yeah, there’s I think this loyalty, or Nick feels that even though he doesn’t want to have this conversation, he’s going to, out of either respect for Harry or the desire to help a fellow Gryffindor who’s grieving.
Laura: I think it’s also kind of what he set himself up for in making the choice that he made. And you can tell he regrets it, just based on how he talks about the choice that he chose to remain as, what was it, something like a mere shadow imitating life, and that there really isn’t much pleasure to it. We see at the Deathday party that ghosts don’t really have… they don’t have the five senses. Well, they can see, I guess, but… they can see and hear, but they can’t feel, they can’t taste flavor, so it’s really a hollow representation of life. And it sounds like Nick chose that because he was afraid of the unknown; that was the impression that I got, was, “I want to remain here with something recognizable because I’m too afraid to go to the beyond,” and ultimately, that kind of bites him in the ass.
Eric: What struck me about it was how not Gryffindor that is. He refers to himself as a coward in that moment. He was afraid of death and so chose to remain, and it’s like… that’s so interesting that you would be the Gryffindor ghost.
Micah: Well, Pettigrew is a coward, too, so…
Eric: That’s true. There’s got to be some kind of…
Micah: And I wouldn’t equate them on the same level, necessarily, of cowardice.
Eric: No, no, who isn’t afraid of death? Come on, find me anybody. But I think that there’s a line between… bravery is it’s not that you’re not afraid, but that you do it anyway, right? So there’s something about the Gryffindor courage. What strikes me about this conversation with Nick and Harry is the regret that you hear Nick… Laura, to your point, and also this idea that he says, “I’m neither here nor there, technically,” that there is a there to be getting off to, and now he can’t do that. Feels like he’s missing out, and it feels like every day of his existence he’s remembering that he misses out. And so furthermore, having this conversation about Sirius, who moved on, who does get to experience whatever, or not experience anything, or whatever it is after you move on, Nick is having to console Harry about somebody that’s having an experience or lack thereof that he will never have because he chose to stay.
Micah: And as I was saying, Nick really gives Harry the closure that he’s looking for – even though he’s not maybe willing to accept it in this moment – around what has happened to Sirius. And then he comes across somebody who I think really softens everything and gives him exactly what he needs in this moment, someone who can relate to his pain, somebody who normalizes what he’s feeling, and he finds that in Luna.
Ivana: I think Luna is my second favorite character. I think she represents so many different things, but it really is one of my favorites. Harry is stuck in all of the feels, right? He’s stuck in his pain and his anger and his sorrow, which are some very big components of grief, and then Luna brings him back into his empathy, and it’s changed from a moment of him trying to find a place to soothe his grief to a reminder, and it’s a reminder that he cares and that he can. And after a minute, he realizes he feels bad for what she is going through, and then brought back into his own body, his internal narrative shifts, and he’s able to step into that empathy again, and I just love this moment because it’s real. And I don’t know about you guys, but I can think of so many moments in my life where I have been in the thick of it, and then just this really unassuming moment or person or situation comes around that allows me to switch gears, and it is one of those moments where it’s not what I wanted; it was just what I needed.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Laura: Well said.
Andrew: What sticks out to me in this scene is Harry’s opening relationship with Luna at the beginning of this book was, “This is a weirdo. I don’t want to associate with her.” And then his thinking begins to change a little bit once she can see Thestrals too, but by this moment, to your point, Ivana, when she is meeting him on his level and reaching out and being a true friend – a shoulder to cry on, if you will – his whole perspective changes. He realizes that she is not strange at all, and now we have a pair of lifelong friends here. I just think it’s beautiful how their friendship started from nothing and became something really powerful by the end of this book.
Micah: Yeah. And I think there’s something to be said for the fact that she shares a very personal story in what’s happened to her mother, and she also really normalizes what he heard in the Department of Mysteries, saying that, “What do you mean that you don’t think that you’re going to see your godfather again? Didn’t you hear them just lurking out of sight?” And I think it’s just exactly what he needed to hear in this moment. And this could be identified as the moment that launched a thousand Harry/Luna shippers. [laughs]
Andrew: Oooh!
Laura: Yeah, I was one of them.
Andrew: Yeah, Laura? This scene got you? You were like, “Where’s my pen? It’s time to write some fanfiction.”
Laura: [laughs] Yeah, I probably did. But yeah, no, I mean, this was the scene that made me feel like, “Wow, Harry and Luna are able to relate to each other on a level that nobody else can relate to either one of these characters,” so I thought that’s what this was setting up for.
Andrew: Well, and what also probably didn’t help the Huna shippers is that a few pages later, Harry has come to not care about Cho at all, so it’s like, “Oh, he’s moved on and ready for a new gal.”
Eric: Another Ravenclaw.
Micah: And Ariane Beth says in the Discord, “This book does not work without Luna,” and she’s definitely right.
Eric: Huh.
Micah: And then, but Eric, I thought you had a really good point here, too, about how this is just a very human conversation that happens, and one that really… I don’t know that he’s at the point yet that he can have with Hermione or Ron.
Eric: Yeah, I think it takes an outsider sometimes, right? He has so many preconceptions, or there’s so much pretense with “If I tell Hermione this…” You can’t just have a random conversation about death with Hermione, because Hermione knows too much about what Harry has been going through. She knows him intimately. She will be reading in deeper to every comment made, and that’s not what Harry needs right now. The ability to talk to somebody, relate on a human level, with basically a stranger or somebody you don’t know as well because none of that pretense, is refreshing and freeing, and it’s like the joy you get out of I guess bonding with somebody that you know less well for the first time. So that’s what I was thinking about Harry and Luna here. I can easily see how it launched a thousand ships, because that sometimes is how these things start. You don’t always know somebody, and one day you get to talking, and you could have a really insightful conversation, whether about death or Twin Peaks or whatever have you.
Micah: So true. Well, as we start to wrap up this chapter, I wanted to briefly compare this train ride home to the train ride into Hogwarts. And one thing that stood out to me in particular was Dumbledore’s Army and the fact that they come to the aid of Harry when he’s about to be attacked by Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, and particularly because it’s the members who are in Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff who are the ones who help Harry in this instance, and so I feel like we’re building more House unity here.
Laura: Definitely.
Eric: All they needed was a common jerk to come out again.
[Ivana laughs]
Micah: There you go.
Andrew: Well, and my big concern, I think, earlier in this book maybe – or our last Goblet of Fire reread – was that it doesn’t seem like the adults ever really encourage House unity; the students have to do it themselves. And here’s another example of that.
Eric: Also, there are no adults on the trains ever.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, exactly.
Eric: Where was the…? You know what happens? And I’ve completely wiped this out of my memory; I completely forgot. Crabbe and Goyle and Malfoy are basically, by the time the DA is finished with them, they are oozing and resembling slugs? Hello, Book 6 reference.
Laura: Right.
Eric: But also, what? And they’re stashed by the DA. They’re stashed on the overhead bins, like Harry is, hiding on the overhead bin under the Invisibility Cloak when he is attacked by Malfoy, so a little bit of instant karma.
Laura: Ooh, that’s a good call.
Micah: Yep. Well, Andrew, you mentioned another one, which I think is worth reiterating, and that’s Harry could care less about Cho. Let’s not forget how much he could care about her on the train ride in.
Andrew: [imitating Ron in Sorcerer’s Stone] He’s sorted out his priorities.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: He has. And one other fun moment was that Ginny is noted to be reading The Quibbler, which I don’t think is something she would have been caught doing on the train ride into school…
Laura: Right.
Micah: … and Harry is also sharing a compartment with Neville, and he was very hesitant to do that earlier on in this book, so things have come full circle.
Andrew: Aww. Great constructing that.
Ivana: I was just going to say that. It really has.
Andrew: Yeah. This is what I was kind of getting at at the top of this episode, when I said it’s a very satisfying chapter. A lot of loose ends are tied up; a lot of good things happen; a lot of things have changed for the better, other than losing Sirius.
Eric: People even swim with a giant squid.
Ivana: When in Hogwarts. This I liked. I really liked that we got to see Ginny reading The Quibbler. It felt very fleeting, but very impactful, because with Harry and Luna, their interaction, and what they were doing and talking about, it felt like it was this moment of acceptance and kinship. And we can kind of see this as… it’s not even just Ginny, either, too; I think it is the group that’s in this big cabin accepting not just Luna but Harry, too, and his otherness in all regards.
Eric: Yeah, there’s certain things that you can’t do without being friends or tolerating each other in your train compartment, and storming the Ministry is one of them.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: So there’s that.
Ivana: Trauma bonding.
Eric: Trauma bonding!
Micah: Yeah. We finally pull into King’s Cross…
Andrew and Micah: Choo-choo.
Andrew: Jinx-jinx.
Micah: Oh, well, now you’ve got to finish the episode.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: And Harry gets a very warm reception, an unexpected reception, from the Order, who are waiting on the platform for him, and they give the Dursleys some hell, and it’s just a great moment. Why did Harry never get this support before?
Laura: That’s what I was wondering.
Andrew: Well, I think that was the point. You see this unified front welcoming him back now, and it’s like, “Oh, okay, they’re finally taking my dismay seriously, and they’re going to start looking out for me when I go to the Dursleys.” So I don’t know. It sucked that it hasn’t happened sooner, but the payoff feels great here. It’s worth the wait.
Eric: I think Dumbledore is finally letting them. I think they would have no problem staying by his side. I think Tonks would literally sit on the end of his bed to guard him if Dumbledore had let her last summer. [laughs] “Sorry, who are you?” But yeah, I just think that Dumbledore has conceded. And also, what shocked me about this is if there weren’t this scene, the Order of the Phoenix – the titular group of this book – really wouldn’t have any interactions with Harry past the first couple chapters. It’d be kind of weird, so it’s nice to see them looking out. Everyone understands.
Andrew: The author was like, “Damn it, I’ve got to live up to the title still.” [laughs]
Eric: Well, yeah. It just… everybody understands that he’s just lost the most important person to him family-wise, and so the idea that they’re showing him – not just telling him, but showing him – that they will act as his family, they will protect him, is such a bold gesture. Got to imagine how weird it is for the Dursleys to hear, though, right? Or even just to say out loud, right? This is not something you say in polite company, but like, “You cannot abuse your nephew, or you’ll have hell to pay.” To say that out loud in a public place to somebody?
Micah: Well, and what is so interesting about this particular moment is… and this is connecting the threads back to Prisoner of Azkaban, right? Harry threatens the Dursleys with Sirius, right?
Laura: That’s true.
Micah: Because they know who Sirius is, and he’s like, “Yeah, this crazy person who was out on the loose all year happens to be my godfather, and he said, ‘Hey, reach out if you ever have any issues,'” or whatever he says. I don’t remember. But I do think it’s kind of cool that you can tie those together.
Odds & Ends
Micah: So a couple of odds and ends to talk about. Eric, you mentioned one earlier as it related to foreshadowing to Half-Blood Prince and what happens in the train, but there is another one, and it has to do with Harry specifically, because he says, “As the train slowed down in the approach to King’s Cross, Harry thought he had never wanted to leave it less. He even wondered fleetingly what would happen if he simply refused to get off,” and that’s exactly what happens… well, he doesn’t refuse to get off, but he’s put in a position where it’s very difficult for him to get off in the early part of Half-Blood Prince.
Andrew: Careful what you wish for.
Micah: I also just wanted to mention, because I thought it was a nice moment, for Flitwick paying tribute to Fred and George. He leaves a bit of their magic up from when they had created the swamp to piss off Umbridge. And then it’s also noted here, Fred and George have some pretty, pretty nice clothing.
Andrew: Cha-ching! And they say that business is good. Great, in fact.
Micah: Dragon hide suits or something to that effect, right? And then this was just kind of a nice moment, the two Heads of House butting heads with each other. This is just after Harry encounters Draco and he’s about to attack him, and Snape comes in and tries to take points away from Gryffindor, but McGonagall shows up back from St. Mungo’s, and she… it’s just… I would love to see this scene Max’d, honestly, because the way she treats Crabbe and Goyle, and then she just showers Gryffindor in points for what’s happened this whole year.
Andrew: Walking in after Snape’s comment reminds me of a TV sitcom. He’s like, “I’m going to take points away,” and then McGonagall is like, “Oh, I don’t know about that!” And the audience is like, “Hahaha!”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: The laugh track, yeah.
Andrew: And then because this is the final chapter, I wanted to put the release of this book and the next one into perspective. So Order of the Phoenix was released June 21, 2003, and by then, Harry Potter was extremely popular; midnight releases had happened. So millions of fans read it within days, but then they finished, and they would have to wait until July 16, 2005 for the next one. It was over two years they would have to wait to get the next book, and that’s where sites like MuggleNet and Leaky and all these others filled the gap.
Micah: Two years, not that long. I mean, if you’re somebody who reads A Song of Ice and Fire… [laughs]
Andrew: Well, sure, but imagine. Just imagine finishing a Harry Potter book today, not the final one, and you’re like… you don’t even know when the next one’s going to be released! [laughs] I mean, you could’ve been waiting three or four…
Micah: But there’s no major cliffhanger in this one, at least.
Andrew: Okay, Micah, well, some of us were real fans, and we couldn’t wait a day for the next book.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: So two years, one year, three years, four years… torture!
Micah: All right.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Eric: I’ve got to say, yeah, I see what Andrew is saying. I wouldn’t have wanted to wait between Books 4 and 5. I’m actually grateful for having Book 5 be the first book release, and then only having to wait two years each time. Plus, I found you guys, and we had this podcast and all that during that time, so that was really lovely.
Andrew: Yeah. I just wanted to put it in perspective, because we’re going to resume Chapter by Chapter in a few weeks. Everyone else had to wait two/three years.
Eric: Well, including ourselves, but yeah. We did our waiting, Andrew.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Two years of it back in ’03 to ’05, and now we’re over it.
Laura: I mean, also, just think about the theories at the time. There was so much debate about is Sirius actually dead, or is he going to come back?
Eric: That’s right, that domain name I bought, SiriusBlackIsNotDead.com, really never took off.
Andrew: Are Larry…? [laughs] Larry. Are Harry and Luna going to be a thing? What is the veil? So many questions.
Laura: Well, we never got an answer to that one, so… womp-womp.
Eric: I did want to point out Dumbledore refers to it as the Death Chamber. He tells Fudge, “You will find Lucius Malfoy in the Death Chamber.” It seems to confirm that that is, in fact, the purpose of that room, is to study death, which can give you some answers.
Laura: Right, kind of.
Eric: Not satisfying ones, but yeah. I mean…
Ivana: Doesn’t Nearly Headless Nick, too…? In his conversation with Harry, he makes a comment about death, and then says that, “Well, I presume that’s what they’re studying in the Department of Mysteries.”
Eric: That’s right!
Ivana: And like, okay, what next? And then we didn’t really get anything on it.
Eric: What would happen if a ghost went through the veil?
Laura: Can they?
Eric: Would they move on? We’d have to find a new Gryffindor ghost.
Superlative of the Week
Micah: Our MVP for this chapter: There are a number of characters who stand up for Harry. Who do we think had the most meaningful moment?
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to Mad-Eye for telling Vernon that he is threatening him, and he’s not intimidated.
Eric: I’m going to give it to Tonks for making Aunt Petunia so uncomfortable with her bright pink hair that she can’t even keep her eyes open!
Laura: We just celebrated this, but I’m going to give it to McGonagall. She had the most badass return to Hogwarts by saying, “Hang on a second, Severus. Didn’t these kids just thwart your old boss for the fourth time? I think we can give them some points.”
Andrew: Ahahaha! Da-da-da-da, commercial break.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: Ahh. Or you get the little house-elf and goblin to show up.
Laura: Oh, God. [laughs]
Micah: They’re the comedic relief.
Eric: I love that.
Micah: I went with Ernie Macmillan, because it was the most surprising…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: … the fact that he stepped in and helped Harry against Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle.
Ivana: And I gave it to Luna, because she kind of stood up for Harry to Harry and his grief, and I thought that was really solid.
Micah: Awesome.
Eric and Laura: Love that.
Micah: Well, those are our MVPs.
Lynx Line
Micah: Now over to the Lynx Line, where we asked members of the Slug Club over on Patreon: At the end of this chapter, the Order tells the Dursleys they are not to mistreat Harry or else. What do you think would have happened if they needed to pay a visit to Privet Drive?
Andrew: Karen said, “I think they would just send owls to crap all over Vernon’s car so that he would go mad washing it all the time.”
[Micah laughs]
Eric: And Rachel says,
“The Dursleys like everything to be ‘just so’ and care about appearances. I’d have the Order bury some gold and jewels in the yard, bewitch it to look like nothing had been disturbed, and then release some Nifflers. They could put a Niffler in the house, too.”
Micah: Nice.
Laura: That’s a great idea.
Eric: Love that.
Micah: Matthew said, “Make all the walls in their house turn invisible at random times during the week. Since Petunia loves snooping on others, it would drive her nuts.”
Eric: Oh, that’s amazing!
Laura: [laughs] Cassandra says,
“So far, all the suggestions sound kind of mean. I think Dumbledore should be punished for not telling the Dursleys to treat Harry nicely to begin with. In the last chapter, he admitted he knew he was subjecting Harry to a dark ten years when he left him there.”
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “That’s fine. It’s fine. Builds character.”
Ivana: And Billy said,
“I want some sort of sign like the Dark Mark over the house that says a wizard lives here. It would only be visible to them, but they wouldn’t know that. They’ll try to move or leave and it would follow them. I feel like this is something Fred and George could work up.”
Andrew and Eric: I love that.
Ivana: Absolutely.
Andrew: Carly says,
“As much as I want the Dursleys punished, the Order is stern, but not cruel. I think they’d do things like Petunia’s kitchen would never be fully clean; there would always be a dirty dish or a random new stain that would magically appear. The TVs would never work during Dudley’s favorite shows. Vernon’s voice would never be able to go above a whisper, and his jokes to potential new clients would never land.”
Yeah, those subtle little prods.
Eric: A little sabotage, social sabotage. Courtney says, “Another pigtail for Dudley and matching ones for the whole family!”
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Oooh.
Micah: And finally, Beeennn… sorry, that was an inside joke.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Throwback.
Micah: Sorry, inside joke… says, “Give them lines to write with Umbridge’s special quill.” Ooh, this is vicious. “Maybe ‘I will be a caring and loving uncle/aunt/cousin,’ or just ‘I love Harry Potter.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Oh, definitely “I love Harry Potter.”
Andrew: The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show every week. We ask a new question on our Patreon every week; you can become a member of our community by visiting Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and pledging for as little as $7 a month. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, we’ll say goodbye to Order of the Phoenix by playing Quizzitch! Quizzitch Live is back, so join us for a fun-filled evening of Order of the Phoenix trivia. We’ll have some prizes lined up as well. You can check in on our social media this week for the full details, and one of our listeners will be joining us who actually came up with these questions, so it’ll be a lot of fun next week. We’ll test everybody’s knowledge of the book. How closely were you paying attention to our reread? Were you rereading along with us? We’ll find out next week. I just mentioned our Patreon. Don’t forget: Pledge now and order the 20th anniversary yearbook by pledging at the Slug Club level. You must pledge and fill out the order form by September 18, and stay tuned for a new bonus MuggleCast later this week where we’re creating our own Hogwarts Houses! Each of us is creating one to celebrate back to Hogwarts season. And we just did another bonus MuggleCast, where we discussed how a Harry Potter hotel in the real world would take shape, and the features we would like to see within. Finally, visit MuggleCast.com for quick access to all this information, our contact form, and lots more, and if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now to get everybody ready for Quizzitch Live next week, it’s time for standard Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s question: The original player tokens for Parker Brothers bestselling Monopoly board game were the battleship, the boot, the cannon, thimble, top hat, and iron, and later a dog was added. What breed of dog is the dog token in Monopoly? The correct answer was a Scotty, or Scottish Terrier. And 59% of people with the correct answer say they did not look that up; congrats to everybody. Correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Barking Bort; Beam Me Up!; Defense Against the Dark Farts; Dumbledore’s very partial grasp of truth telling; Hufflepufflekittyfluffle; Is Tofu Tom my uncle?; Julie Ann Fae; J.V.D.L.; Liam the Youngling; Not My Daughter You Sirius; Patronus Seeker; Slytherin Squib; and Tofu Tom. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question, or the one for the week after the… yeah, just play the clip.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This chapter is titled “The Second War Begins.” Perhaps the most well-known second war in the Muggle world is World War II, which began on what day? What day is it generally agreed that World War II began? is the Quizzitch question for this week. The hint is that Germany invaded Poland on that date. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re on our website, check out our transcripts and other cool stuff, and while you’re there, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav to submit your answer. Thanks to everybody, and Quizzitch, because it’s live next week, will not feature the answer to this question, but we’ll get you on the next one.
Andrew: Ivana, thank you so much for joining us today, and thanks for your support on Patreon, and thanks for all your wisdom.
Ivana: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. This has been a joy. And thank you, as everyone says, but it’s just the truest truth. Thank you for all you guys do! It’s incredible, and it brings a lot of magic into the real world for a lot of people.
Andrew: Aw, our pleasure.
Micah: Thank you.
Andrew: We’re happy to be your Harry Potter friends, and we’ll continue hanging in our bonus MuggleCast coming up. We’re about to record it. Thanks, Ivana. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: I’m Laura.
Ivana: And I’m Ivana.
Andrew, Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.