Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #724, Snape’s House of Deceit (HBP Chapter 2, Spinner’s End)
Cold Open
Laura: It wouldn’t surprise me. I mean, he’s depressed as hell. There’s no getting around that.
Eric: Well, you’d be depressed, too, if Wormtail were living with you.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Yeah! Oh, God, yeah.
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app, and that way you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, raise a glass of blood-red wine to the Dark Lord, because Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 2 of Half-Blood Prince, “Spinner’s End.” And we are excited to be joined by friend of the pod, MuggleNet contributor, podcaster himself, and an author, Irvin! Welcome back to MuggleCast, Irvin.
Irvin Khaytman: Hey, Andrew! Thanks so much for having me back. It’s always such a pleasure to come on.
Andrew: Yeah, we’re excited to have you, and we wanted to have you on this week because you actually are about to publish a new book about the Malfoys, right?
Irvin: True story. Yeah, my second book, about the Malfoys, just came out two weeks ago. It’s called Malfoy, and hold on, there’s a long subtitle. Malfoy: The Fall and the Fate of the Wizarding World’s Most Treacherous Family, an Unofficial Exploration. So it’s my Malfoy book, is how I call it.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: Very cool. Well, this is a perfect episode to have you on, then.
Irvin: I know! Oh, I was so excited when I heard you guys were doing “Spinner’s End,” because, well, A, it’s the best chapter. And B, I wrote a whole ass chapter about it in this book, about whether Narcissa was planning what she planned.
Andrew: Oh, cool.
Eric: Oooh.
Laura: Ah, well, that’ll be fun to get into.
Micah: That’s a very cool cover, by the way, too, with the peacock.
Irvin: Oh, so I literally insisted on that with my publisher. They were like, “So for the Malfoy book, we’re thinking snake,” and I’m like, “Peacock, obviously.”
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: And somehow you were able to buy the domain name Malfoys.com; that’s where everybody can learn more about the book and find ordering links. And you’re also having a release party?
Irvin: Yes, so because I am extra as hell, for my book launch I’m doing a weekend-long celebration of all things Malfoy in New York City, October 17-19. We’re doing a book launch; we’re doing panels and presentations; we’re doing a wizard rock concert called Rock the Peacock…
[Everyone laughs]
Irvin: I’m proud of that one; I’m not going to lie.
Laura: Oh, that’s so funny.
Irvin: So yeah, if any of your listeners are in New York City October 17-19, I can promise them a really good time. And all the information is on that same website; you can go to Malfoys.com.
Andrew: Amazing. Well, welcome again. It’s a pleasure to have you on, and we’re excited to get your insights today.
News
Andrew: Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, though, we do have an update about the Harry Potter TV series coming to HBO. We finally got a look at Dumbledore through paparazzi photos that were taken while Dumbledore, played by John Lithgow, is on a beach. And he’s doing a little bit of a jog in the water, and in these other shots, he’s looking up into the sky and reciting a Latin incantation that translates to “Let the wall fall, let the way be clear.” And then some other photos also taken around this time depicted Dumbledore with two old wizards, and a lot of people are speculating that this is Nicolas Flamel and his wife. John Lithgow looks great, right, as Dumbledore? Pretty cool to see.
Laura: He does.
Irvin: Yes. Oh my God, yes.
Eric: It’s a very Richard Harris style Dumbledore. It looks a lot like Richard Harris’s Dumbledore from the first two films, especially the long beard that… so long that you could tuck it into your belt. And that’s what pleases me to look at.
Andrew: Any thoughts on what Dumbledore is doing on a beach? Is he on vacation before the school year starts?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: No, it’s not that.
Micah: Isn’t that what we always talk about when he’s not at the school?
Eric: We always talk about that.
Andrew: It’s true.
Micah: He’s always on vacation.
Andrew: At a gay bar in some tropical island, I think. Go ahead, Irvin.
Irvin: Well, in Goblet of Fire, Harry imagines Dumbledore on the beach when he was worried about his scar hurting, so maybe as he imagines it, we’re going to get a shot of it.
Andrew: And on a related note, some people have thought they’re already filming scenes for Book 6. I do not think that is the case at all.
Laura: No.
Andrew: This is some…
Eric: I think what’s more likely – especially because of the old witch and wizard really look like Nicolas Flamel and Perenelle, I think his wife’s name is – this is going to be a scene having something to do with the Sorcerer’s Stone.
Andrew: Agree.
Eric: Either they’re moving it, or they’re… it could be from maybe, at the latest, the end of Season 1, where Nick has to give up or allow the stone to be destroyed, even though it would mean he and his wife eventually die. Which never made sense to me, but anyway, that’s how that works.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, I feel like they seem to be shooting this somewhat chronologically, and we know that at the beginning of the book, the Sorcerer’s Stone was moved into vault, what, 687 at Gringotts? And Hagrid had to go pick it up while he was taking Harry shopping. Don’t the Flamels live in France? It makes me wonder if Dumbledore goes to France to retrieve the stone at the beginning of Series 1, and we actually get to see that. It’s not something we got to see in the book. We just learn about it; it was an offscreen moment. So I’m really excited.
Andrew: Right. Yeah, we’re getting stuff that, to your point, was offscreen, off-page. So this is another example of them world-building and giving us more than what was even in the books, which is a very pleasant surprise.
Eric: Yeah, we heard a conversation happened, but you just don’t know what that entailed in getting to see it, getting to see Dumbledore’s relationship with this old friend of his who… he probably met Nicolas Flamel when Nicolas Flamel was 580-something, and Dumbledore was just a wee lad. But now they’re old men together, and they have this camaraderie. Dumbledore’s work on alchemy is what made him… gets a mention on the Chocolate Frog that Harry reads on the train to Hogwarts, and getting to look into that relationship a little further is an exciting kind of preview. Also, Nicolas Flamel, can I say, based on the pictures, does not appear to be super frail, moving real slow, like he was in the Fantastic Beasts film.
Andrew: Comically old, yeah.
Eric: This looks like a Nicolas Flamel who has at least maintained some level of energy, could probably do a few somersaults in the sand.
Laura: Irvin, I think you were kind of leaning towards the idea that this is around the move to Gringotts, but you also have a suggestion about what the inciting event for that is, right?
Irvin: Yeah, so I’m wondering if they’re going to make it more of a cat and mouse thing with Quirrell – or let’s be honest, a shadowy figure we don’t know – trying to steal the stone. So sort of like Dumbledore is chilling with the Flamels on a beach, and suddenly you see someone trying to get to the stone, and so then they move it to Gringotts. Then they worry about Gringotts; they move it to Hogwarts. It might be more of a active battle, trying to keep the stone from whoever’s trying to steal it, than it is just the Gringotts-to-Hogwarts pipeline.
Eric: Well, I love that.
Andrew: And then setting up the need to destroy it by the end of Season 1.
Laura: I love that.
Andrew: So yeah, that does make sense.
Irvin: Yeah, I just don’t know when chronologically they’d show that, because I think it would be weird, right, if we’re seeing Harry living with the Dursleys, cut to Dumbledore and magic and battles, cut back to the Dursleys.
Eric: I was so thrown by the beach. I was like, “Is he helping Hagrid get to Harry on the Hut-on-the-Rock? Is he doing magic? Is he lifting Hagrid in the air?” Because that’s the last thing that we saw, was the Dursleys at a… they filmed at a hotel, like an inn by the seashore. So it’s pretty interesting, if they were doing this strictly chronologically, to figure out when this would come into play.
Micah: Andrew, I did want to just point out that you didn’t translate the second half of what was on the card.
Andrew: No, it wasn’t as… I don’t have it up. It was something about the environment, right?
Eric: There were two cue cards.
Micah: It said, “Rise, great avenger, with wings from the water.”
[Eric and Irvin laugh]
Andrew: Oh, stop.
Eric: That’s not the second part of it.
Andrew: Yeah, it wasn’t as interesting.
Eric: The second part of it was like, “Once it’s done, doesn’t mean it’s ever done. Rise again.” Something like that. It was very similar, actually, Micah, to what Micah said.
Andrew: That’s the update there. Stick with MuggleCast for continuing coverage of the TV show, which is expected to premiere later next year or early in 2027. If you love MuggleCast and want to help us keep the show looking in better shape than Snape’s home, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and by supporting us, you can get instant access to two bonus episodes of the show every month, plus ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, a personal video “Thank you” message from one of the four MuggleCasters, a new gift each year, and a lot more. And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com. I’m wearing our “19 Years Later” shirt tonight. You can also leave us a review on your favorite podcast app, or you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show.
Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve
Eric: Okay, it’s time to get into Chapter 2 of Half-Blood Prince, titled “Spinner’s End.” The last time that we talked about this was Episode 379 of MuggleCast, titled “Baby Micah.” And Micah was not on that chapter, and it’s weird. It continues to be weird. But anyway, let’s dive in to our MuggleCast Pensieve.
Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 379.
Andrew: Oh my goodness.
[Laura laughs]
[Sound of memory uncorking]
[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]
Stefanie: So Snape, who did all this stuff for Lily, who’s now living in the home with Wormtail. And he has a bed, because he says, “Go to your room,” basically, to Wormtail, so they’re living together and it’s crazy. [laughs]
Eric: [in a sing-song voice] Snape and Peter, roommates!
Andrew: It’s like one of those awkward scripted comedy shows. Like, “What will happen when Snape and Wormtail live together? Find out Tuesdays at 8!”
Eric: [imitating Snape] “The fork goes on the right side, Wormtail. How many times do I have to tell you? The spoon is on the left.”
[Stefanie laughs]
[Sound of exiting Pensieve]
Dumbledore: This memory is everything.
Andrew: [laughs] Thank you, Dumbledore, who has joined the pod, evidently.
Eric: Yes, yes, yes. Special thanks to Albus Dumbledore, a.k.a. Charlie Hopkinson on TikTok, who recorded some lines as Dumbledore saying, “MuggleCast,” and each of the numbers will incrementally go up.
Laura: That’s awesome.
Irvin: Uncanny. That’s so impressive.
Eric: I’m very happy with it. I had little turnaround time, but it’ll sound even smoother next week.
Micah: Who is the guest host at the top?
Andrew: There were two. Two listeners, Stefanie and… I was confused, too, so I loaded up the show notes.
Eric: No, both Micah and Laura were not on the chapter discussion last week. It was just Andrew, me, and two of our listeners.
Andrew: Alex and Stefanie.
Eric: Alex and Stefanie. Now that we have the full cast panel, very excited.
Laura: Yeah, maybe we’ll get some new insights this week.
Eric: Well, definitely from Irvin, who wrote the book on the Malfoys. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah, I’m definitely a little intimidated, because I feel like I have a Malfoy expert here on the panel.
Andrew: If Laura and Micah weren’t on, then Eric and I shouldn’t be on this episode, so we’ll see you all later.
Eric: All right. Bye, guys.
Irvin: It’s been real.
Laura: No, we have to complete the set.
[Eric laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Laura: Obviously, without further ado, this chapter picks up in Spinner’s End, following Narcissa and Bellatrix as Narcissa is desperately in pursuit of someone or something to help her. It’s not made entirely clear at the beginning of the chapter what that is, but I think as readers, we can make some assumptions, given the fact that we know her husband has been locked up in Azkaban, but he’s also disgraced amongst the other Death Eaters and Voldemort for his failure to procure the prophecy last book. And I thought we could talk about Spinner’s End here for a moment to kind of set the stage for this discussion. So some important lore here: Spinner’s End is Snape’s childhood home, which was also near young Lily and Petunia Evans’s childhood home, so it’s where Snape and Lily met each other as children. So between this, and there are some other threads that we’ll talk about as we unravel this discussion, there’s a lot of threads being established in this chapter for upcoming plot and later character revelations.
Micah: There’s a lot of symbolism, too. The fact that we’re in Spinner’s End, right? You think about spiders spinning a web, a web of lies…
Eric: A web of deceit.
Andrew: Oh, I thought you were going to say spinning a story, spinning a tale.
Eric: Or a web of mystery.
Andrew: Exactly.
Eric: Again, we get told a story; we don’t know what to believe.
Irvin: Yeah, the last time I did a podcast about this chapter, we started with the lens of “Who is the spinner and what is their end?”
Andrew and Laura: Ooh.
Irvin: Because really, this whole chapter is just people spinning tales and lies about each other. Between Snape, Bellatrix, Narcissa, Dumbledore, and Voldemort’s machinations behind the scenes, and the tale that Rowling is spinning, still trying to maintain ambiguity about Snape’s allegiance… it’s just so masterfully done.
Andrew: It is. Let’s, before we dive too deep, look at Snape’s house, though. What does it say that he chooses to stay in his childhood home and that it’s in bad shape? To me, one thing it says is that he has his mind elsewhere. He’s focused on his life at Hogwarts, what’s going on with Dumbledore and Voldemort… he doesn’t really have time to keep up a nicer home. But what else does it say? Because that can’t be it.
Micah: There’s probably a bit of trauma going on here for Snape. He literally hasn’t gotten over his childhood; we see that come up in previous books. And this is the home that, we find out later on in Half-Blood Prince, where his father was extremely abusive towards his mother, as well as towards Snape. So I think there’s probably a little bit of that at play.
Eric: It’s not a home of happy memories, that’s for sure. And the fact that it’s not better maintained could indeed speak to Snape’s, I think, being stuck back there mentally, because an accomplished wizard would just really be able to make all sorts of modifications. You could make it a grand castle. You wouldn’t even need to build anything; you’d just do it by magic. And this is just kind of a dank place, lot of books… he feels kind of… it feels like he’s imprisoned.
Andrew: He also could just move, but he stays there.
Eric: Yeah, that’s another…
Irvin: But for two months of the year, though, right? I think he just couldn’t be bothered, that it is just a brief, inconvenient place to stay that he has.
Andrew: True.
Eric: Assuming both of his parents passed, this is something that he would have inherited, and maybe there’s some happy memories there. But still, it’s kind of like Harry having to go back to Privet Drive two months out of the year. It’s just like… this is not a happy place.
Andrew and Irvin: Yeah.
Micah: It struck me, though, also as just being a place of convenience for what he’s tasked with doing.
Eric: Well, it’s not exactly becoming of a prince, though.
Laura: No.
Irvin: Maybe a Half-Blood Prince.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: It’s half befitting for a whole prince, so there you go.
Irvin: There you go.
Andrew: But I think that the description of Snape’s home is to further throw us off the scent that this could be the Half-Blood Prince, because to your point, Eric, a prince wouldn’t live here.
Laura: Yeah, that’s a good call.
Andrew: This second chapter – again, just like Chapter 1 – expands the wizarding world in a way we haven’t seen before. This is the first time we’re seeing inside a professor’s home.
Eric: Still no Harry.
Laura: Definitely.
Irvin: Well, and Eric, to your point about lots of books, I don’t know if you guys are familiar with David Martin, the guy who won the Tournament of Houses thing on HBO Max.
Eric: Ooh.
Irvin: So he does amazing presentations at conventions, and one of the best ones I went to was where he talked about the role of books in the Potter series, and basically how all the good guys in the series all read books, use books, have books in their home. All the bad guys never have books around; they use people instead of books. So he says that the minute we saw his house full of bookshelves, that should have told us that Snape is actually a good guy.
[Eric laughs]
Irvin: So the question of his allegiance is settled right here.
Eric: Oh, man!
Andrew: As Irvin says this in front of a lot of books behind him.
Irvin: I… yeah, yeah.
Andrew: But this theory doesn’t work for me, because look at Micah. He’s a bad guy, and I see two big old bookcases behind him.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: What if I have all of the same book? I’ve got a bunch of copies of books back here.
Andrew: I barely have books here, and it’s because I’m a bad guy. I own that.
Eric: You guys, quick, get books! Quick!
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I love that theory.
Andrew: No, that is cool.
Eric: It’s very fun. The poster writes itself; pro-reading in the wizarding world.
Laura: Definitely. Something else that just occurred to me as we’re talking about what’s Snape’s motivation for continuing to maintain a residence here, and I think part of it can go back to the connection to Lily, that this is where they kind of grew up together in the same area.
Eric: Wow.
Laura: And we know he’s miserable, and we know that the only reason he’s still involved with any of this is because he tried to save Lily, he failed, and as a result of all the guilt that he carries, he’s ultimately protecting Harry; he’s made that pledge to Dumbledore. But we also know that he tries to keep Lily close as much as he can.
Andrew: Aww.
Laura: I mean, to the point where in his dying moment, he wants Harry to look at him so he can see his mother’s eyes. He’s still holding out a flame for a dead woman.
Eric: I wonder if he takes daily walks to the park where he saw Lily and Petunia as kids, and probably spent some afternoons in the sun chatting to Lily about wizards.
Laura: It wouldn’t surprise me. I mean, he’s depressed as hell. There’s no getting around that.
Eric: Well, you’d be depressed, too, if Wormtail were living with you.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Yeah! Oh, God, yeah. Absolutely. Micah, talk to me about the symbolism of the fox.
Micah: Yeah. Well, you know I like goats, but I feel like we have to talk about another animal in this particular chapter. But the fox that pops up… which, I mean, this is industrial UK, right? I wouldn’t expect a fox normally to just pop its head out. But I mean, I don’t know if it’s because there’s a bit of symbolism here, right? Foxes are known for their trickery and their cunning, and Bellatrix is very quick to AK that fox, and I don’t know if we’re meant to draw anything from that. I feel like… is it more just, “Oh, innocent animal; Bellatrix, cruel woman,” or is it…? Are we meant to read into it a little bit more?
Eric: I assume there’s a lot of… there’s coyotes in Chicago. Just wilderness, regular wilderness if they’re around a river, river bed… there are stoats. There are all sorts of just wildlife that are living close enough to tiny homes that… it unfortunately is an innocent victim, though, which is just a shame. It’s the first death in this book.
Andrew: And that’s kind of the symbolism there, maybe. An innocent victim. Draco is an innocent victim in all this, I think.
Eric: Ahh.
Laura: Yeah. And foxes are cute, so it is very sad. But we hear Bellatrix say, “Oh, shoot, sorry. Thought that was an Auror. Just a fox; don’t worry about it.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: So I think it goes to show how trigger happy she is. It’s reminding us that she is… her sanity is hanging on by a thread.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Irvin: Yup.
Laura: So along with this, Bellatrix is fruitlessly trying to convince her sister to turn back and not to pursue whatever it is she is seeking. And obviously it becomes clear that they are looking for Snape; they’re going to this very sad, damp, and decrepit childhood home that he has taken up residence in. But something that I found really interesting about the exchanges between Bellatrix and Narcissa is that Bellatrix is kind of tentatively – a little bit timidly, almost – expressing that she thinks the Dark Lord may be mistaken about Snape’s loyalty, but this chapter makes it clear that Bellatrix also isn’t as plugged in to Voldemort’s inner circle and his movements as she would purport to be. So do we think this is why she doesn’t take a harder line with her sister?
Irvin: I think it’s completely different. I think it’s because she loves her sister. I think that Narcissa is probably the only person in the world whom Bellatrix actually loves, aside from Voldemort, just because the way they interact when Narcissa turns her wand on Bellatrix, and Bellatrix is like, “Come on, you wouldn’t. Your own sister?” I think that says a lot more about Bellatrix’s relationship to Narcissa, that basically she thinks that she and Narcissa should be the most important thing to each other, more important than sons or husbands or Dark Lords, whereas Narcissa clearly disagrees, and I think that makes the disconnect between them. But that’s the most interesting thing about Bellatrix to me, is the fact that she does actually love her sister and does have layers to her character.
Eric: I like that a lot.
Laura: I love that.
Eric: It’s worth noting that they both have a third sister who is not in the picture, Tonks’s mom Andromeda, who by all accounts is awesome. Sirius, I think, said that she’s his favorite cousin. She married a Muggle-born and was ostracized. So I think that in Andromeda’s absence, when she was purged from the family and stricken off the Black family tree, Narcissa and Bellatrix could have gotten closer as a result.
Micah: For sure.
Irvin: Well, and they’re all they each other had from the family that’s left. The parents are long gone; Sirius and Regulus are both out of the picture. So it’s just them and their little unit.
Laura: Yeah. Irvin, I really love that observation, and I almost wonder if there’s a thread we can pull around motherhood there, because we know motherhood… I mean, it’s such a huge theme in this series, but we ultimately know motherhood is what drives Narcissa to do what she does in the next book. So do you think there’s an implication here that Narcissa is basically saying to Bellatrix, “You think I wouldn’t? Sorry, my son trumps you. He outranks you.”
Irvin: Absolutely. Well, because Bellatrix is sort of meant to be the archetypal opposite of the mother’s love that’s the end-all, be-all in this series, I think that here Jo is actually very actively trying to draw the contrast between the two, where Narcissa falls into the long, noble tradition of mothers – of Molly, of Lily – who will do anything and sacrifice anything for their children, whereas Bellatrix, as the bad guy and the complete contrast to them, is like, “If I had sons, I’d give them up to the Dark Lord. Kids? Whatever.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: So what do you think…? While we’re on this topic of the dynamic between the sisters, but also Bellatrix’s dynamic and sort of her trying to take care of her sister, but also wanting to be Voldemort’s right hand woman, you put a really interesting question in here about do you think Bellatrix would rather be right or wrong about Snape being disloyal? Can you unpack that for us a little bit?
Irvin: Sure. So Bellatrix comes in guns a-blazing, telling Snape, before anyone gets a word out, that “I do not trust you, as you very well know,” and when Snape is like, “Okay, why don’t you trust me?” Bellatrix comes with receipts.
[Andrew laughs]
Irvin: We get paragraphs being like, “And then you did this, and then you weren’t there, and where were you? And why is Harry Potter alive?” And Snape, of course, asks, “Do you think Voldemort is wrong?” And Bellatrix is like, “I think the Dark Lord is mistaken.” So I’m wondering, because Bellatrix is so very gung-ho about the Dark Lord – true believer, fighting for the cause, willing to give up sons and all the rest of it – I’m wondering if she would rather be right or wrong about Snape being disloyal to the Dark Lord. Because if she’s right, that actively undermines her beloved Dark Lord, and that weakens his position, and as a selfless Death Eater who wants what’s best for the cause, she should want Snape to be loyal. As a Death Eater who’s very much trying to advance herself, who wants to be the favorite Death Eater and sees Snape, rightfully, as her main rival for that position, I think she’s very invested in Snape being evil, and in her being right that he’s disloyal.
Laura: I tend to agree with you. I think she’s an opportunist at the end of the day, and I think she’s always looking out for number one.
Andrew and Irvin: Yeah.
Micah: I think she just wants to be relevant at the end of the day, and I agree with you; I think that she wants Snape’s position. She wants to be that level of importance to the Dark Lord, and it’s clear that she’s not.
Eric: Oh, the fact that he knows of the plan, right? That Voldemort told Snape about his plan with Draco shows that Snape is as close as Bellatrix maybe used to be, right? Especially because Bellatrix, since the Ministry event, has fallen out of the Dark Lord’s favor, catching Snape and being able to prove that he’s secretly a good guy working for Dumbledore would put her back in the good graces of Voldemort. So I think that’s what she wants. That’s what she prefers, is for Snape to be bad and her to prove it, so that she can get back to where she used to be, on Voldemort’s good side.
Irvin: From the perspective of what they bring to the Death Eater organization, right? Snape is probably the only Death Eater who is more or less her match in terms of magical prowess, right? Most of the rest of them don’t really seem like superlative wizards, but I think Snape could give Bellatrix a run for her money. And on top of that, Snape also has the intelligence aspect, the fact that he is a spy, the fact that he can report on Dumbledore. So Bellatrix’s only edge, if she’s trying to be a more valuable Death Eater, would be loyalty to the Dark Lord, and that’s why she comes in guns a-blazing. She’s like, “I have endured 12 years at Azkaban while you have done…” and Snape is like, “Right, but what good is that?” And then she just completely flies off the handle.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Yeah, I mean, her perspective is like, “I suffered for him,” right?
Andrew: [laughs] “I sat there in Azkaban,” and Snape has so many great quips.
Irvin: It’s amazing.
Andrew: Yeah, a couple great quips about that.
Micah: Going off of what was said earlier related to love, do we think that Bellatrix might be doing this in part to try and protect her sister?
Irvin: Oh, yeah.
Laura: Yeah, for sure. I think so.
Irvin: I mean, why else would she go to a Muggle town and spend the night with Snape?
[Eric laughs]
Irvin: That doesn’t seem like her idea of a good Saturday night.
Eric: Of a good time, yeah.
Andrew: One of them described it not so pleasantly at the start of this chapter.
Laura: Yeah. So they arrive at Snape’s very sad childhood home, and he welcomes them in very magnanimously, or at least Narcissa. It’s very clear that he’s not super stoked to see Bellatrix, and that feeling is mutual. We also encounter Wormtail and learn that he’s Snape’s new roommate, which is definitely an interesting combination, right, Irvin?
Eric: Max that!
Irvin: Oh, it’s such a genius move on Voldemort’s part, right? He takes the two Death Eaters that he doesn’t trust in the slightest, makes them live together, and I would bet money that both of them are then reporting back on the other to Voldemort.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: 100%.
Irvin: So Wormtail is spying on Snape, Snape is spying on Wormtail, and them together is keeping each other honest from Voldemort’s perspective.
Eric: That’s funny.
Irvin: Honestly, Voldemort is kind of good at running an evil organization at times.
Andrew: Well, and there is one moment in this chapter where we hear that Wormtail is listening against the door as they’re having this conversation. That further aids your point.
Irvin: Exactly.
Andrew: I mean, sure, he could just be a curious fellow, but he also wants to relay information back to Voldemort to get back into Voldemort’s good graces.
Eric: Well, and that’s Voldemort’s big trick, is having all of his Death Eaters sort of compete for his affection and time. And Pettigrew, for all the things that he’s done to advance the cause, is consistently relegated to basically the dung heap, and he’s still inspired to keep trying to get back on the good side.
Irvin: Yeah. It’s why this is such a great chapter, because it’s the only time we see the Death Eaters spend time together without Voldemort there, and so seeing how they’re competing for his favor, but also how afraid they are of Voldemort. Literally, they all get together, and the first thing they do is drink to the Dark Lord. That’s insane.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: But yeah, they’re all simultaneously afraid of getting on his bad side. I mean, I think jumping back to the Bellatrix motivation of it all, I think she wants to be right, but I think she’s also terrified to tell Voldemort about her theories in case she’s wrong, because she’s already screwed up once in the last couple of months, and she doesn’t want to screw up again. So it is very interesting. And I think a theme that really stuck out to me about this chapter as we get into Bellatrix being about to spill the beans about Voldemort’s plan, Snape is like, “Girl, say less. I already know his plan. He wants Draco to kill Dumbledore.”
Andrew: [imitating Snape] “Say less.”
Laura: This is the chapter where we really start to see Death Eaters realize that they are not special, and that the consequences of Voldemort’s reign of power are not just going to fall on the “less desirable” classes that they were thinking were going to be punished. As soon as they no longer have use to Voldemort, he’ll turn on them too. So this is a case of Narcissa… and Irvin, I don’t want to talk crap, but the feeling I got throughout reading this was this is Narcissa’s version, and something that we see a lot in the history of the world of people who are gung-ho about really nefarious and evil movements and policies, until they realize that the goal posts can shift, and as soon as you are no longer at the top rank of the preferred class, you are subject to a lot of the same treatment.
Irvin: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Narcissa’s only objection to the Dark Lord is that it places her family in danger.
Eric: Yeah, right, exactly. She would be perfectly happy to follow him and do pretty much anything he requests of her family if it wasn’t putting them in direct risk.
Irvin and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Well, and it’s also really where we see the groundwork for what she’s ultimately going to do in the next book. Again, she says to Bellatrix a little earlier, “There is nothing I wouldn’t do anymore,” because this is her only son, right? And so we see the motivation here. She’s going to ask Snape to keep Draco safe and to help him.
Micah: Yeah, what’s so interesting in watching Snape operate in this particular moment is that, at least my headcanon… and I know Irvin is going to debunk me in a minute…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … but I wasn’t convinced that Snape knew of Voldemort’s plan for Draco. And we know he’s this accomplished Legilimens. I’m just… just bear with me here for a moment. So I was thinking, could he in fact be reading Narcissa’s mind when he steps away? Because he does this periodically, right, in this chapter, during the conversation. He goes over to the window. I think it would actually have been cool if he didn’t know the plan, and he was using his abilities in this moment to continue to manipulate the situation to his advantage.
Irvin: I mean, that was a very popular theory before Deathly Hallows came out, because it was genuinely ambiguous whether he knew the plan in the scene or not.
Andrew: He doesn’t really share any details as Narcissa is talking. I think the one line – and I’m trying to find it right now – that does suggest he may have actually known the plan was when Snape says something like, “If Draco were to pull this off, his name would become legend,” or something like that. So Snape has an idea that what he’s about to do is a big deal.
Micah: Yeah, but I mean, he could just be embellishing there, right?
Andrew: I guess.
Micah: He doesn’t have to know what it is exactly.
Eric: Well, I think that Snape relishes being able to say, “You don’t need to tell me; I already know.”
Micah: Of course.
Andrew: Oh, definitely.
Eric: We know he loves that. I think, though, that it is…
Andrew: Especially in front of Bellatrix. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, I think to impress her and anger her at the same time with how cool he is. That’s a very Snape sort of thing. But no, I am of the mind that he does know about it, because also, his position as a double agent, he needs to know everything that’s going on on both sides so that he can protect himself and also be ready for anything. He probably suspected or guessed or was mentally prepared to do something like the Unbreakable Vow before Bellatrix and Narcissa ever showed up, because think about how it works out.
Micah: Yeah. I mean, maybe it’s just a matter of him measuring the moment, to your point, about this Unbreakable Vow that’s coming. That’s a lot to take in.
Andrew: It’s a great headcanon, though, Micah. And I mean, it’s too bad it’s debunked, because I really do like this theory. And as Snape says in this chapter, “I’ve played my part well.” This is Snape working both sides, and it’s delicious to see.
Irvin: Yeah, because it’s only debunked in “The Prince’s Tale.” The scene in “The Prince’s Tale” when Dumbledore injures his arm, he then immediately goes to Snape, and then he mentions, “I refer to the plan Lord Voldemort is revolving around me. His plan to have the poor Malfoy boy murder me.”
Eric: Oh.
Irvin: So that scene takes place before “Spinner’s End,” because in “Spinner’s End,” Snape references the injured hand. So that confirms he did know, because he and Dumbledore talked about it. But again, we only found that out in Deathly Hallows. And also, if Bellatrix is as smart as she hopes she is, Bellatrix also might realize that for all of Snape’s talk, he also didn’t actually say he knew what the plan was. Rather, he said he knew what it was, but he didn’t actually say what it was.
Laura: Yeah, that’s true.
Irvin: So I think the ambiguity is built into the scene.
Laura: Do we also think there’s a double motivation, or a dual motivation for Voldemort here? Because one, he gets to torture the hell out of the Malfoy family for a year to punish Lucius, right? But two, if we believe Snape, if we take him at his word when he says, “Yeah, I believe that Voldemort does intend for me to step in should Draco fail,” is this Voldemort saying, “Hey, I get to torture the Malfoys, but also I get to put Snape’s loyalty to the ultimate test”?
Eric: Yeah. And I mean, Snape expects it. He says that, I think to Narcissa, “I believe Voldemort wants – or the Dark Lord – expects me to do it if Draco fails.” And then that’s what sets Narcissa off, because she’s like, “So then my son’s life doesn’t matter at all! He doesn’t need to use him at all!” But yeah, Snape knows that it will come down to him, that Draco will fail, and that Voldemort intends…
Irvin: Well, that’s a question of logistics, too, right? Besides the loyalty test, Snape is the one who works with Dumbledore, who has regular access to Dumbledore. If anyone’s going to kill Dumbledore, it’s going to be Snape. Giving Draco the assignment is pure punishment. It only makes sense that Snape will do it in the end.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Totally. So I wanted to ask, what do we make of the Snape that we see in this chapter? The way he communicates with Narcissa in particular feels different; it’s more adult than what we’re used to with him, and I think it’s because there are no children in this chapter.
Irvin: Because they’re adults?
Laura: Yeah, exactly.
Andrew: And the wine is out.
Laura: That’s true.
Eric: You know, one of the comments I want to highlight from our Discord – people who are listening live right now – from Hedwig’s Theme, says, “Weirdly love Snape being snarky when it’s directed at adults and not school kids.” Yeah, it’s different. This hits different.
Andrew: And it’s not bullying. I mean, it’s bad when you’re watching him be snarky towards the students because he’s bullying these kids, but adults… I mean, is it the best thing to do? Not necessarily, but to these…
Eric: His contempt for Wormtail. Wormtail is on all of our shit lists, right? So it’s okay for him to treat him subhumanly or whatever in front of others. His contempt for Bellatrix, who’s just utterly absurd. She just killed Sirius Black! We’re ready to have some level of avenger.
Micah: Well, that’s the only thing he’s happy about with her.
Irvin: Right, yeah. He does, like, “I give you full credit,” raises his glass.
Andrew: Yeah, that was kind of a bit of a surprise. [laughs] But he’s fair. Snape is fair.
Eric: I think he’s mollifying… yeah.
Laura: I mean, we have to remember, Wormtail is ultimately part of the group that bullied him so terribly when he was in school.
Irvin: He’s also the reason Lily is dead.
Laura: Yeah, exactly. Man, that adds a whole other layer to this, too. Snape is being forced to live with the guy whose fault it is. And granted, it’s also kind of Snape’s fault.
Eric: It’s also Snape’s fault.
Laura: True.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It’s probably about 50%. Snape loosened the guard rails, so Voldemort never would have known about the prophecy if it weren’t for Snape specifically, and if it weren’t for Wormtail specifically, he never would have been able to find the Potters.
Andrew: But that makes it all the worse that the two people responsible for Lily’s death are now having to coexist. [laughs] Cohabitate in the same space.
Irvin: And that’s why Snape treats Pettigrew the way the Dursleys treat Harry, where when company comes over, he is sent to his room to make no noise and pretend he doesn’t exist.
Laura: I love that.
Irvin: To your point about how Snape relates to Narcissa and them being adults, there was a theory back in the day that I encountered, that an online friend of mine actually was very gung-ho about, that Narcissa was trying to seduce Snape when she showed up at Spinner’s End that night.
Andrew: [laughs] Ooh-la-la.
Eric: Uh… okay.
Andrew: Snape and Narcissa, Voldemort and Bellatrix… woo! What is the evidence? Go ahead.
Irvin: Well, the evidence is a bit flimsy, in my view…
[Everyone laughs]
Irvin: But basically, there’s two bits. First is that there’s this line in Half-Blood Prince, where “she slid off the sofa into a kneeling position at Snape’s feet, seized his hand in both of hers, and pressed her lips to it.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: She’s begging for her son’s life!
Andrew: Yeah, this is her son we’re talking about.
Eric: Context matters.
Irvin: And, well, the other bit is the context, which is that a woman does not show up on a man’s doorstep late at night asking for a favor without insinuating something.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Oh, that hussy! That hussy.
Andrew: This… okay. Well, the darkness and the cover of night might help avoid Muggles, so maybe that’s why they’re showing up at this time of day.
Eric: Yeah, Statute of Secrecy.
Andrew: Makes it more eerie. Also – I don’t know it for a fact; I just believe it to be true – all Death Eaters are night owls. It’s just how they are.
Eric: Maybe they believe that Snape is a vampire and so he wouldn’t be there during the day anyway. He’d be resting.
Laura: Maybe.
Irvin: Look, I don’t buy it, but my friend is a Gen X British woman like Jo Rowling, and I am not, so perhaps she has a better grasp of how Jo thinks women and late night bachelors relate to each other.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: [imitating Snape] “I love a late night booty call.”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: I do not need that mental image in my head. Peace and love.
Eric: Well, you know, Narcissa’s husband is in the clink…
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Thank you very much.
Irvin: Sorry. I ask the questions; you decide.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: I appreciate it. It’s a fun theory.
Eric: Amazing.
Laura: It is. Well, don’t worry, we’re going to talk about some other cases where we know that there were probably some late night liaisons going on a little bit later.
Eric: Oh, God.
Laura: But I do love – and we kind of talked about this a bit before – but he really does have such a different regard for Bellatrix than he does for Narcissa. And I know there were some great quips that all of y’all made notes about and called out, so I want to make sure that we get to share some love for those if folks want to call those out.
Irvin: I mean, best one has to be the 12 years in Azkaban, and he’s like, “Well, it’s a fine gesture, to be sure.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Yes, yes.
Irvin: Literally steam comes out of her ears.
Micah: For me, and I’m paraphrasing a bit here, but he says to Bellatrix, “You don’t think the Dark Lord has asked the very same questions?” That list that Irvin was referencing earlier. He’s like, “Yeah, you don’t think that the guy in charge asked me every single one of these questions at some point, and what, I didn’t answer them satisfactorily?” Basically, “Why do I have to answer to you, if I’ve already answered to him?”
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: I just like how cool and collected he is with it, as if he expected it, and the fact that he does have these answers, and they play. I think that they… I mean, Bellatrix comes away from that being unsure, and that’s a mark of its effectiveness.
Irvin: One more quip, when Bellatrix is like, “He calls me his most loyal… his most faithful…” and Snape is like, “Does he? Does he still, after the fiasco at the Ministry?”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: And all this happening in Snape’s own home makes it all the more delicious as well.
Laura: Exactly.
Andrew: He’s fully in control here. And I mean, we were talking earlier about this home being lifeless and dreary, but he’s really spicing things up this night.
Irvin: He’s coming alive.
Micah: Do you think it’s the wine?
[Irvin and Laura laugh]
Andrew: It’s probably partly the wine.
Eric: It’s that elf-made wine.
Laura: He’s unwinding, yeah.
Micah: I just love how this chapter really shows what a badass Snape actually was. We’re forgetting in all this, I think, the fact that he’s been lying straight up to Voldemort for years, and…
Eric: To his face, yeah.
Micah: To his face. So while this theater has been very fun to enjoy, there’s also the whole other side that he’s been able to lie without any repercussion whatsoever. It’s super impressive.
Irvin and Laura: Yeah.
Irvin: Well, how weird is it that in this scene we relate to Bellatrix? When she’s asking Snape all these questions, she’s like, “I don’t know if I can trust you. I don’t know what you’re up to.” And we’re like, “I mean, yeah, us too.”
Laura: Yeah, she’s the reader in this case.
[Andrew laughs]
Irvin: Yeah, isn’t that bizarre?
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: It’s pretty awesome.
Laura: Well, with that in mind, do we recall what we thought of Snape’s allegiance when we first read this?
Andrew: I wish.
Eric: That’s a good question, because that predates MuggleCast by about three weeks.
Andrew: I know. I wish I remembered.
Eric: I feel like I was firmly, “Okay, Snape is a good guy. His contempt for Bellatrix proves that to me, that he’s not buddy-buddy.” But at the same time, the way that the rug gets pulled out from readers at the end of the book when he goes ahead and kills Dumbledore, right? So between this chapter, I’m like, “Oh, he’s clearly a good guy,” then at the end of the book, he does this unforgivable thing by casting an Unforgivable Curse, and you’re kind of left, despite this first chapter, still wondering into Book 7, right? That’s when The Great Snape Debate comes out, is after this book. So yeah, I seem to remember thinking he was good, but I think that the story of this book shook me a little. Going into Book 7, I don’t know what I thought.
Irvin: So I remember I thought he was good when I read “Spinner’s End,” because I was like, “Oh, this is the story he’s been telling the Death Eaters; that’s what we’re finding out.” And then when he kills Dumbledore, then I was like, “Oh, he’s evil! He’s so obviously evil! It was right there in black and white! He told us he was evil, and then he turned out to be evil.” So after reading Half-Blood Prince, I was so thoroughly convinced Snape was a bad guy because of this, among other things.
Andrew: You know, as the leader of Team Dumbledore Is The Best…
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: … I believe I trusted in Dumbledore. He knew what he was doing. He is right; Snape is good. And also, flashback to – they were just briefly mentioned – the Snape is good/Snape is evil debate. Pre-Deathly Hallows, the bookstores were really leaning into this as well. I remember at Borders or Barnes & Noble, there were “Snape is good/Snape is bad” buttons. You could pick.
Eric: It was Borders, maybe.
Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] The debate was hot.
Eric: I have it. I have the book.
Micah: Oh, wow.
Eric: The Great Snape Debate. This is the case for Snape’s innocence, and then when you flip the book, it’s the case for Snape’s guilt.
Andrew: Oh!
Eric: And so half the book is printed upside down, so that you could read all the evidence for he’s a good guy, and all the evidence…
Micah: That’s cool.
Andrew: You look like Luna Lovegood reading that. That’s pretty cool.
Irvin: How did I not have that? What?
Eric: This was Borders, or I got it from Borders. $32.99. I think that’s New Zealand dollars.
Andrew: Yikes!
Micah: That’s expensive.
Eric: No, that’s New Zealand dollars, so it was 77 cents per… anyway.
Laura: Oh, okay. Got it.
Micah: Well, you should only have to pay $16 worth because… [laughs]
Eric: I don’t know that I paid anything for this, or I got the staff discount at the time.
Micah: Okay. I’m trying to remember… I think I was probably in the camp of thinking that he was playing a role, but then I probably got scared when he made the Unbreakable Vow because I realized nothing good could come of that.
Laura: Yeah, I remember feeling like he was good, but that he was caught in an impossible situation where he had to make the Unbreakable Vow to keep his cover. And I remember at the time feeling like, “Okay, a big chunk of this book is going to center around Snape figuring out how to circumvent this so that he can save himself and Draco, and maybe his allegiance to Dumbledore is going to be revealed in this book.” Obviously, not what ended up happening, but I think I still always kind of maintained that Snape is good. Of course, that’s relative, because I don’t think Snape is good or evil; I think he’s lots of shades of gray.
Irvin: How many shades? 50?
[Everyone laughs]
Irvin: Or more?
Andrew: Probably.
Micah: Well, on that night, Irvin…
Eric: I’d say at least 31 shades.
Laura: Oh, so he’s like the Baskin Robbins of shades of gray? [laughs]
Micah: Well, when Narshisha shows up… I can’t even say her name.
Eric: “Narshisha”?
Andrew: “Narshisha shows up.”
Micah: That’s her stage name. When Narcissa shows up…
Irvin: You can call her Cissy.
Micah: Yeah, when Cissy shows up…
Eric: Yeah, just call her Cissy. Everyone else does.
Laura: So speaking about some more adult themes, we know there’s clearly trouble in paradise with Voldemort and Bellatrix at this point. When Snape calls her out for the Ministry fiasco and implies that she doesn’t know as much as she thinks she does, he says, “Oh, have you discussed this matter with the Dark Lord?” And she just goes, “He… lately, we… I am asking you, Snape!” It’s very clear that Voldemort is keeping her at arm’s length right now because she screwed up.
Eric: Womp-womp.
Laura: But I know we’ve also talked about the timing of Delphi’s birth, and I did a little bit of napkin math on this. So we know, according to the Harry Potter wiki, that Delphi was apparently born in secret at Malfoy Manor in early March of 1998, two months before her parents died at the Battle of Hogwarts. So if we work backwards from March of 1998, that means Bellatrix gets pregnant in roughly June or July of 1997.
Eric: Which will be next year, so a year from now.
Laura: Well, yes. So do Voldemort and Bellatrix reconcile after the successful killing of Dumbledore and celebrate, and then we get Delphi?
Eric: Yeah, that tracks for me.
Laura: Gross. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah. Well, and tying this back to Irvin’s question earlier about whether Bellatrix would be excited or mad that she was right or wrong about Snape, maybe she wanted to celebrate the Dark Lord being right about Snape. So she was like, “Let’s do this, baby! Woohoo!”
Laura: She’s like, “You were right the whole time, hon!” [laughs]
Irvin: “Never doubted you, not for a minute.”
Eric: Ahh.
Andrew: Now, this is a very real booty call that happened in this book.
Eric: Well, and it really goes back to our recent discussion at the Battle of the Ministry chapter, because Voldemort specifically saves Bellatrix from Azkaban. He doesn’t have to; he could have just skedaddled, but he specifically Apparates… this is why Fudge sees him; the entire reason Fudge sees him and thus reveals his existence to the wizarding world again is because Voldemort shows up, makes himself visible after possessing Harry, just to grab Bellatrix. And so I bet that Voldemort quickly regrets saving her, and thus puts her at arm’s length, where we see her be so desperate for his attention and affection in this chapter, which is only a few months later.
Irvin: I mean, he’s upset with her and mad at her, but she’s still, as Deathly Hallows says, his last best lieutenant. So I think he still values her, even if he’s upset with her.
Eric: She’s a true believer; he’s just not going to pepper her…
Irvin: She gets a couple strikes. Most of the Death Eaters get one strike; Bellatrix might get three.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: Well, not to mention, she and Lucius were one of the few Death Eaters with whom Voldemort placed a Horcrux, so there’s clearly a special superlative level of trust here between Voldemort and his followers.
Irvin: Yeah. I actually find it interesting to consider the other way, of what if Bellatrix was growing disenchanted with Voldemort? And we know that didn’t end up happening because Deathly Hallows; we read Deathly Hallows. But when the sixth book was out, before we had the seventh, you could paint a convincing picture off of the “Spinner’s End” chapter of Bellatrix getting much less impressed with Voldemort and much more impressed with Snape. That same friend with the Narcissa/Snape theory, Madame Roz, wrote a great essay about it over in 2006 about how, basically, if you look at the Department of Mysteries, where Voldemort just completely screwed up… he had a bad plan, the plan failed, it all blew up in his face, then he took it out on her. He ignored her warnings about Dumbledore, and now suddenly Snape is here, and Snape is making these Unbreakable Vows, and Bellatrix is like, “Damn.” I feel like you could sort of take this chapter as a starting point for a storyline where Bellatrix goes apostate against Voldemort, and I think that would have actually been a really cool story.
Eric: You can see it in the way that she slides off the couch and gets to her knees and kisses Snape’s ring as well.
[Andrew laughs]
Irvin: That’s what I’m saying!
Laura: Well, let’s talk about the Unbreakable Vow.
Micah: Who knew Spinner’s End was such a place to be?
[Irvin and Laura laugh]
Irvin: I came to elevate things and make it classy here.
Andrew: You are.
Irvin: Thanks, I try.
Andrew: Hashtag #MakeMuggleCastWeirdAgain.
[Eric and Irvin laugh]
Laura: Did we ever stop being weird?
Andrew: One of our listeners requested that we be weird again, yeah, so that’s that campaign.
Laura: Ahh.
Eric: Speaking of… you know, all this talk about Bellatrix? Bellatrix is married!
Micah: That’s true.
Irvin: Oh, yeah. We forgot; so did she.
Eric: Rodolphus Lestrange. What is Bellatrix’s relationship…? He’s never in the picture.
Irvin: He’s the real victim, right?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Justice for Rodolphus.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Well, anyway, let’s talk about this Unbreakable Vow real quick. So we know Snape agrees that he will help Draco to succeed in his mission to kill Dumbledore; however, Irvin, you made a great call-out that he is roped in to a portion of the Unbreakable Vow that he wasn’t anticipating, because it’s very different to say, “Yeah, I’ll help him,” but then what does Narcissa do?
Irvin: Yeah. Okay, so when I was writing my book, I went into this chapter line by line and word by word, because that’s the kind of book Half-Blood Prince is. And so basically, Narcissa comes in with three requests, which it’s hard to keep track of because Bellatrix is there at an 11. But if you ignore Bellatrix, so first, Narcissa asks, “Will you intervene? Will you ask the Dark Lord? Will you try to get Draco out of this?” And Snape, getting all his PTSD flashbacks to the last time a woman he cared about was in the Dark Lord’s crosshairs, a woman named after a flower and he wanted to kill her son, Snape is like, “Nope, not doing it! Doesn’t end well.” Then Narcissa’s second request is, “Will you do the thing so Draco doesn’t have to?” At which point Snape is like, “I think I eventually have to, but I can’t do it now because the Dark Lord said Draco has to do it.” The third ask is, “Will you watch over him? Will you help him?” And then he’s like, “Yes.” That’s when the Unbreakable Vow comes in. So they clasp hands, Bellatrix whips out her wand, and the first two clauses in the Unbreakable Vow are exactly what they just talked about. “Will you watch over Draco?” “Yes, I will.” “Will you help him as best you can?” “Yes, I will.” And then she just pulls one out of the hat and is like, “Also, will you kill him if Draco won’t?” She just goes back to the second clause out of nowhere; we thought the question was settled. And that’s when Snape’s hand is twitching holding hers, but he’s in way too deep at that point. He can’t say no; they’re already vowing. And so with his twitching hand, he says, “Yes,” and that’s when we get Bellatrix’s astonished face as the third tongue of flame comes from her wand. So Narcissa 100% trapped him there at the end. Snape did not want to make that third vow, he did not want to commit to killing Dumbledore in Draco’s stead, but she got him.
Laura: Yeah, I love that.
Andrew: Well, and Snape’s hand twitching during this moment with the third ask, I think, just locks in your theory here. This is absolutely right.
Irvin: Yeah, and so the chapter in my book is about whether or not that was premeditated on Narcissa’s part, which I mean, spoiler alert, I say no, but I lay out the whole thing.
Eric: Yeah, I think she’s too emotional to have premeditated anything other than going to see him and hoping he can help. But it’s fascinating to think about, especially because it is a gotcha. And it very rarely occurs to me, but definitely this chapter is the time to think about it, that Snape probably has affection toward Dumbledore.
Irvin: Yes.
Eric: There’s no place for him ever to show it, but this is the man that has offered Snape a redemption for his actions, and it’s the man that singlehandedly is… where I don’t think Snape likes Voldemort.
Irvin: No.
Eric: I don’t think Snape has ever seen Voldemort as anything other than unappealing since the Lily death incident. But this twitch of him having to commit to killing Dumbledore… first of all, love to know what that conversation is like. [laughs] “How’d it go with the sisters?” “Well, Headmaster, I said I’m going to kill you.” But no, having to actually do the deed and kill this person… I mean, we get to see it happen, and Snape is miserable when he does it.
Irvin: Well, and to your point about Dumbledore, I think we see a bit of Dumbledore in Snape in this scene, just because Snape’s sense of humor in this scene is… I mean, it’s pretty uncharacteristic of him, just when we see him interacting with students, but his sardonic little comments and the way he’s enjoying himself at Bellatrix’s expense, it’s very reminiscent of Dumbledore. In fact, it’s kind of reminiscent of Dumbledore in the very next chapter, when Dumbledore shows up at the Dursleys’ place and is like, “Hehehe.” So yeah, I think they are pretty much friends, and that Dumbledore is rubbing off on Snape.
Eric: Well, it’s so interesting because we talked about how Snape isn’t bullying people like he bullies students in this chapter, but next chapter, Dumbledore is bullying the Dursleys 100%. [laughs] Forcing the glasses to keep bonking them on the…
Laura: They deserve it.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. No, look, everyone deserves it, but at the same time…
[Andrew and Irvin laugh]
Andrew: Everyone?
Eric: No, it’s interesting to draw the comparison between Snape and Dumbledore as their tactics and their interactions with other adults. Snape and Dumbledore are entwined this whole book. I love that we see a lot more Dumbledore in this book, especially coming off of Book 5, because we saw next to nothing. The Snape facet… for this being Snape’s book, right? It’s named the Half-Blood Prince; it’s named after him. Snape is not really in it that much that I can recall. This is what I’m going to be paying a lot of attention to as we read this book. By the time we get to “Flight of the Prince” or whatever, and Snape reveals, “It is I, the Half-Blood Prince,” feels a little afterthought-y kind of thing. So I’m going to pay extra attention to every time we see Snape helping Draco, every time we can guess that he and Dumbledore have had a conversation, because there’s probably some really interesting stuff there.
Andrew and Irvin: Yeah.
Laura: Definitely.
Irvin: I feel like Half-Blood Prince… there’s a lot about Snape. We don’t have as many scenes of Snape being all up in Harry’s face, but people are always talking about him, seeing him, running into him, talking about someone else talking with him… he sort of… he’s the name on everyone’s lips in Half-Blood Prince.
Eric: Ahh. It’s gonna be Sevy.
Micah: He’s there through the book, very similar to Chamber of Secrets, right?
Laura: True.
Superlative of the Week
Laura: Well, that was a wonderful setup for this week’s MVP. Given the fact that we talk a lot about how Dumbledore is such a chess master, this chapter actually highlights Snape doing some of that, and it’s very clear he’s been inspired by his mentor. So I wanted to ask for this week’s MVP, who is the better chess master, Snape or Dumbledore?
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to Snape, because – I think I quoted this line earlier – he says, “I have played my part well.” He says that to a mistrusting Bellatrix. Snape is out there on the front lines of playing the part; that is not easy. And I also think you know you’re confident in your abilities when you speak about yourself in the third person. “[Dumbledore] has never stopped trusting Severus Snape, and therein lies my greatest value to the Dark Lord.” [laughs]
Eric: Man. Couldn’t have said it better. Snape is completely singular in his ability to do what needs to be done here. There are very few people, and in fact – like I said, singular – Snape is the only one that can double agent Voldemort, the most accomplished Legilimens ever.
Micah: I’ve got to give it to Dumbledore.
Andrew: Whoa.
Micah: Dumbledore is the better chess master because… well, Andrew, you said Snape makes the point, “I have played my part well,” but he’s played it well at the direction of Dumbledore.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: So kudos to Albus. But I think Snape is the much better liar.
Laura: That’s fair enough. I think I’m going to have to give it to Snape, though, just because he has to play both sides of the fence on this. So we know there are times where he has to figure out how he’s going to adapt Dumbledore’s strategy in the moment, when something like an Unbreakable Vow comes up.
Irvin: I’m going to have to give it to my guy, Dumbledore, because I’m just saying, he didn’t get trapped into promising to do something or his life is forfeit.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: Yeah, Dumbledore would never be so vulnerable.
Irvin: He would not. Dumbledore would not end up making any Unbreakable Vows.
Eric: He would just check out, an entire book. Everyone would wonder where he is, why he’s not talking to me.
Micah: He would just put on a ring and… oh.
[Irvin laughs]
Eric: Yeah, oh. Too soon.
Lynx Line
Laura: All right, well, now we’re going to get into this week’s Lynx Line. MuggleCast listeners who are Slug Club members over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, which is: Snape’s childhood home is clearly a little drab. If Snape’s home were the subject of a home makeover show, what would it be called?
Andrew: Leah said, “Property Prince.” Jessie said, “Love It or Hex It.” Kim said, “Help, I’ve Wrecked My Dungeon!” Michael said, “Turning Oily-Haired People’s Houses into Luxury Ones.” Matthew said, “Dank Dungeons and Dead Mums.” Oof.
[Irvin laughs]
Laura: Oof!
Andrew: I don’t know if HGTV will go with that. Jared said, “Our… New… Celebrity Home.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Jared – I think this is the same Jared – also said, “50 Shades of Black.” Carly said, “This week on ‘House-Elf Handiwork,’ we’re turning this home on Spinner’s End into a Spinner’s Trend!”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Ahh, Spinner’s Trend.
Andrew: And finally, Rachel said, “Plaster Faster Potion Master.” Love it.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Laura: Very creative.
Micah: I read that… I’m not going to say what I read that as.
Eric: Okay.
Andrew: Oh, Micah.
Micah: I thought it… “Please Faster, Potion Master.”
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: “Build this house faster,” Micah means. The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We ask a new question every week, so become a member of our community today by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledging, and if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, Chapter by Chapter will continue with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 3, “Will and Won’t.” Harry will appear in this chapter. Yay!
[Irvin laughs]
Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for quick access to all of the information you need about the show. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.
Quizzitch
Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch!
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s question, based on “Spinner’s End”: The silk that’s made by the Darwin’s Bark Spider is the toughest biological material ever studied by man. What country in the world does the Darwin’s Bark Spider call home? The correct answer was Madagascar. 7% of people with the correct answer did not look this up, so I guess it was a hard one. Oops. But correct answers were submitted by A Healthy Breeze; Count Ravioli, our old friend; Dumbledore on Baywatch; Fidgeting with a Lime Green Bowler; How much wood would a witch duck chuck if a witch duck could chuck wood?; I play Fluffy’s Harp; Insert Witty Pun Here; Julie Anne Fae; King Julian; Laura’s Previous Umbrella Academy Heckler and now I don’t know what to call myself, please give me ideas; I like to move it, move it; Naina K.; and Wifed-Up-Hufflepuff.
Micah: That’s a Madagascar reference, right?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: “I like to move it, move it.” Yeah. “Move it!” Okay, here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In this chapter, Snape and Narcissa make a grown-up version of a pinky promise. The origins of pinky promises started in Japan, where they are known as yubikiri. According to yubikiri, what would happen to someone who broke a pinky promise? Interesting tradition. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website. Go to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on our website – maybe you’re checking out transcripts or the must-listens page – click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.
Andrew: Irvin, thank you so much for joining us on the show today, and can you remind everybody where to find your book? Which is out now!
Irvin: Yes, please find my book! I mean, pretty much everywhere you find books – bookstores, online, etc., libraries – but you can find all the information at Malfoys.com, and you can find me promoting the book with wizard rock and all manner of shenanigans in New York City on October 17. And also, if you want to listen to me podcast about Harry Potter for three hours at a time, I do have a Harry Potter podcast called the Three Broomsticks, that we’ve had Eric and Andrew on before. Was lots and lots of fun.
Andrew: Yeah, fantastic.
Eric: Love it.
Irvin: So give that a listen.
Andrew: Awesome. Well, congrats on your second Harry Potter book now.
Irvin: Thank you so much.
Andrew: How did you get the domain Malfoys.com, by the way? That seems like…
Irvin: I have no idea! I literally was searching domains, and I searched “Malfoy,” and Malfoys.com came up, and I was like… I honestly was like, “Did I misspell Malfoys?”
Eric: Right.
Irvin: I went and checked. I was like, “Surely…” And no, it was available for $20 a year. And I was like, “Well, then!”
Andrew: That’s crazy.
Irvin: So Malfoys.com. Well, because no one ever knows how to spell my last name, so I have a website under my name, but that’s no use to anyone when I’m talking.
Eric: I’m going to look up and see if BaywatchDumbledore.com is available.
[Andrew and Irvin laugh]
Eric: That could be pretty exciting.
Andrew: I’m going to guess yes.
Irvin: Not a chance. Way too popular.
Micah: I like how you’ve called this Malfoy Con 2025.
Irvin: I mean, I’m doing three days of Harry Potter activities. It’s pretty much a con.
Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: I’m Laura.
Irvin: And I’m Irvin.
Andrew: Bye, everyone!
Laura: Bye, y’all.
Andrew and Micah: Bye.