Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #762, Wiz-ness Protection (DH Chapter 3, The Dursleys Departing)
Cold Open
Micah: I don’t think they really have any information related to Harry that would be of value to Voldemort.
Eric: Maybe what he likes on his toast in the morning?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: They didn’t pay that much attention. And they wouldn’t have given it to him!
Andrew: “We’re going to lure him with his favorite toast, so tell us what’s on the toast!”
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so follow us in your favorite podcast app; you’ll get a new episode every Wednesday. And this week, be sure to think of something nice to say to somebody you don’t like very much, because we’re discussing Chapter 3 of Deathly Hallows, “The Dursleys Departing.” But first, this week’s Quizzitch question.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: In this chapter, the Dursleys are carted away by Dedalus Diggle and Hestia Jones. Dedalus’s reputation precedes him. What did McGonagall accuse him of doing in Chapter 1 of Book 1? He’s that OG. Remember, if you’re playing along with us on Discord – hi patrons – don’t post it anywhere until we ask that same question again at the end of this episode.
Andrew: Throwing it back to the beginning.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: The listeners Eric just mentioned make this show possible. If you don’t think MuggleCast is a waste of space, just as Dudley doesn’t think Harry is – aww – head over to Patreon.com/MuggleCast and support us today. To thank you, you’ll receive bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, a monthly Zoom hangout with us – we’re going to actually do one of those after today’s recording – and you’ll receive an on-air shout-out here on MuggleCast. Speaking of that, thank you to our newest patrons, YodaMom – wow – Lilly, Larry, Vincent, and Kelly. We’d also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app or told a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: All right, time for Chapter 3 of Deathly Hallows.
Eric: And third chance to get this Seven-Word Summary reasonably correct.
Andrew: Let’s go. Eric kicks it off today.
Laura: I believe in us.
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Eric: Goodbyes…
Laura: … are…
Andrew: … flying…
Micah: … through…
Eric: … awkwardly…
Laura: … among..
Andrew: … family.
Laura: Yay!
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: We did it! That’s actually… I was hoping you were going to say “family.”
Andrew: Oh, sweet. Okay.
Laura: Perfect. That worked out.
Andrew: Thank you for teeing me up, and we hit it out of the park.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Eric: And the Seven-Word Summary does, I think, completely encapsulate this chapter. We did manage to still find two separate topics to break it into; the first one I’m calling “Wiz-ness Protection.”
Andrew: Ooh.
Eric: I’m going to pat myself on the back for that. Hopefully it’s a contender for the episode title as well. I’m going for it, you guys.
Andrew: [laughs] I’ll just add it now because when I edit this, I’m going to forget.
Eric: Oh, yeah. I’m going to be like, “Why was the title something else?”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Anyway, the Dursleys are being put into Wiz-ness Protection! It turns out that a couple of days into the summer holidays, the Dursleys received a visit from Kingsley Shacklebolt and the one person that they probably would least ever like to see’s face again, Arthur Weasley, a.k.a. the living room destroyer. Never forget, hashtag.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: But they met with the Dursleys and explained to them that they were in danger and would need to leave their home. And I think the only thing that prevented Dursleys from murdering everyone was that Vernon recognized Kingsley from TV.
Andrew: Yeah, and it says a lot about the power of television that Vernon trusts Kingsley simply because he has seen that fellow on television before. So Kingsley has become a sort of comforting figure in Vernon’s mind, thanks to that regular presence in his home through the screen, and I think this is a real thing that happens in the Muggle world.
Eric: Absolutely, a familiarity with a complete stranger, almost parasocially. But it’s that trust in media that Vernon has.
Andrew: 100%, parasocial. Yeah, you nailed it. Absolutely. And I think we develop relationships with news anchors, maybe, if you watch the local news, or game show hosts…
Eric: Yeah, or Pit Crew members on RuPaul’s Drag Race.
Andrew: “Ohhh, Pit Crew!”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Micah: Or podcasters.
Eric: Yeah, you see them around, whether… or even Secret Service members that are prominent. You’re like, “What is that guy’s story?” I feel like that’s probably the context.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: I don’t think that’s how it works. I think the whole point of the Secret Service is…
Andrew: You don’t see them.
Eric: That they’re secret? Well, hang on, because isn’t that literally what we’re talking about, though? If Vernon recognizes Kingsley, where do you think…? What context would he have seen him in?
Laura: Well, so I think the difference is that he is accompanying the Muggle Minister of Magic. I think that’s what lends credibility to Kingsley for the Dursleys, because you even hear Vernon say it, where he’s like, “He’s the best of the best. He’s guarding our Minister, right? So I want him.” But I don’t know that Kingsley is necessarily incognito. It’s probably advantageous for him to be recognizable, whereas the Secret Service are intended to blend into the background and look sort of interchangeable on camera. You’re not supposed to be able to pick out one from the other.
Eric: Okay, okay. Well, that may be… the Prime Minister’s bodyguard is being spotted by Vernon and held up as the best-of-the-best wizard.
Laura: Yes.
Micah: It also tells you all you need to know about Vernon, that he thinks he’s that important that he should have the same security as the Muggle Prime Minister.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Yes, 100%.
Micah: There’s also that angle. And earlier, when you were going through, Eric, the fact that we’ve seen Kingsley and Arthur at Privet Drive, there’s actually been a lot of members of the wizarding community that have shown up at Privet Drive over the course of the series.
Eric: It’s the doormat for everybody.
Micah: Two households have graced the presence of Petunia and Vernon.
Eric: Petunia has never forgotten.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Dumbledore has been there. So it’s been quite the hotbed of wizarding activity.
Eric: You know what? That’s actually crazy, and kind of flaunts the protection on Privet Drive in the bad guys’ faces, doesn’t it? That so many Order members, because they’re pure of intention and would never wish to cause harm to Harry, are capable of visiting the house where it all happened, where he grew up, but none of the Death Eaters can do it. And it’s such a problem that when Harry turns 17, they need to figure something out because all of a sudden, all those unsavorables can get in. So anyway, what I find really interesting now at the start of this chapter is knowing where things fit. Just… it’s too recent for Dumbledore’s death to have been processed and even figured out, so the Order of the Phoenix is hurting; they’re short a leader. Voldemort, in contrast, is inches away from fully ruling the wizarding world. And I don’t think the Order knows even that there’s a plan, because Harry isn’t telling McGonagall or anybody about the Horcruxes, and yet they are still sending two agents of a reasonable caliber. I think Arthur Weasley and Kingsley… well, to announce, but also Hestia Jones and Dedalus Diggle are probably pretty competent. They’re sending those guys to protect the relatives of the Chosen One. So the Order of the Phoenix is allocating these resources, even though they’re not in on the plan, so I find that interesting. Is that totally magnanimous, do we think? Because giving this level of thought to protecting two or three Muggles is, I think, more than most wizards anywhere would do, and it might even be more than the Ministry would do, if there was still a safe or functioning Ministry.
Andrew: I think to an extent they are flying by the seat of their pants, but you can understand why they want to protect the Dursleys. They could potentially be sharing a lot of information about Harry or trying to use the Dursleys to get to Harry because Harry would, as we’ll talk about in a little bit, probably try and save the Dursleys if the Dursleys were kidnapped. So I understand why they’re protecting them. That said, obviously… now, no offense to Dedalus and Hestia, but they haven’t been very present from the reader perspective, so just from that perspective, I’m not so sure if they are the most talented people within the Order. So not to say they’re bad, but maybe the Order isn’t sending their best.
Micah: They’re throwaway Order members.
Andrew: Oh.
Micah: Sorry.
Eric: Ouch.
Micah: Well, isn’t that basically what you were going to say?
Andrew: Ah…
Eric: It’s how Vernon sees them, for sure. They’re just some randoms.
Andrew: Yeah, they’re no Kingsley; that’s for sure.
Micah: Isn’t there a mention of Mad-Eye in this chapter too? And there was something about him not being able to show up? Am I misremembering that?
Eric: No, I believe…
Andrew: Rings a bell.
Laura: No, I think you’re right, because there was an original plan. I think Mad-Eye was going to come and Apparate away with Harry.
Micah: Oh, that’s right. That’s what it was.
Laura: But they mention that the plan had to change, and obviously, we know that’s because of what happens in the first chapter of this book, where it’s very clear the Death Eaters know what’s being planned. So the whole Seven Potters thing is kind of a pivot, I think.
Eric: But yeah, it’s still two Order members. How many Order members do we really think there are? 30, 40, 60?
Laura: I don’t even know if there are that many.
Andrew: This is still super important, even if it’s a small number of people.
Micah: Look, I’m not trying to minimize Dedalus Diggle and Hestia Jones.
Andrew: Too late.
Micah: Yeah, it is kind of too late.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But the Order is doing the best it can with the resources that it has; I think that’s really what you’re meant to see in this chapter too, is if you’re going to go back to Chapter 1, where you see all these really powerful Death Eaters seated around the table with Voldemort, they’re organized, they know what their plan is, whereas the Order just seems very disorganized right now. As you mentioned, Eric, they’ve lost their leadership, and they don’t really have any idea what the plan is, right? From Harry’s perspective, anyway. So they’re just doing the best with what’s available to them. But to build off of what Andrew was saying earlier with the Dursleys, I think it’s less about what they could reveal, which is probably minimal at best. I don’t think they really have any information related to Harry that would be of value to Voldemort.
Eric: Maybe what he likes on his toast in the morning?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: They didn’t pay that much attention. And they wouldn’t have given it to him!
Andrew: “We’re going to lure him with his favorite toast, so tell us what’s on the toast!”
Eric: Yeah, yeah.
Micah: I think it’s more about what Harry would do if they were captured, and it removes the risk of a potential hostage situation and putting Harry in danger. They can’t afford Harry to be in danger. And if Vernon, Petunia, and Dudley are captured, we know Harry. We know his MO. He loves to save people, and these people are his family. And we’re going to get into it, but that’s what I think. I don’t think they hold any valuable information; it’s more that this is his family, and he wouldn’t want to be the reason why, at the very minimum, something bad happened to Dudley.
Eric: Well, especially after this chapter, it’s Dudley or bust, I think, as far as who Harry is going to care the most about. But yeah, it’s a worthwhile question, given the resources the Order is allocating. I’m just wondering, maybe the Order is making the same mistake that the Death Eaters would by chasing after the Dursleys, assuming that they have any relationship with Harry. But I think a Death Eater would as quickly find as Hestia Jones is – she’s scandalized by the fact that Vernon won’t shake Harry’s hand – they would quickly realize that they don’t want anything to do with one another, the Dursleys and Harry, so maybe Death Eaters…
Micah: They would recruit them.
Andrew: [laughs] Now Carlee is listening live right now on our Patreon, and she says something that I hadn’t really considered, and, oh man, this really upsets me if it’s true. Carlee said, “I just thought about it, but it’s also important to keep the Dursleys from being found because Vernon, at least, would give up Harry in a heartbeat.” Do y’all think that’s true? Oh, man.
Laura: I think of the Dursleys, he would most likely be the one to do it, yeah.
Andrew: Sure.
Laura: And he’s also dumb enough to think that it would save him, so he would do it, and they’d still kill him anyway.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yeah. Oh, God.
Andrew: Damn, that sucks.
Eric: Okay, well, look, I can’t wait any longer. There’s this tense moment between Harry and Vernon where they look each other in the eye, and both of them are wondering what they would do if it ever came to needing to mount a rescue, and I think it’s the perfect time to ask the question: What if?
[“What if?” sound effect plays]
Eric: So would Harry come to the rescue if the Dursleys were kidnapped by Voldemort? And I’m going to go ahead and lean on the side of no, just because after the events of this chapter, with Petunia not even choosing to really redeem herself in any way, with Dudley doing the most work towards that, I think that Harry is feeling pressure of the task that remains, and I think he might have too much stuff to do in order to go after the bad guys, because that’s surely going to be a trap, it’s surely going to keep him even further away from Hallows or Horcruxes or whatever the hell he wants to do, and I think he won’t be able to do it. So I don’t think he’d go after them. Am I alone in this?
Andrew: So I mean, okay, it’s fair to say that Harry is going to be very busy, so this sounds like an extra task that he might not have time for. That said, they are family. Of course he’s going to go after the Dursleys. I think he would feel deeply obligated to, not necessarily because he loves the Dursleys and he thinks they did a great job taking care of him; he would do it for his mother. I think that’s what it comes down to.
Eric: Oh, wow.
Andrew: He can’t let his mom’s sister die. No way.
Eric: Yeah, you’re right.
Laura: He also doesn’t want people to die for him, and I think ultimately he understands the Dursleys are at risk because of him, right?
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: Well, and I mean, and Harry has expressed this concern when it comes to Ron and Hermione, and surely he would feel that same way about the Dursleys.
Micah: I mentioned this earlier, but he’s got the saving people thing, and I don’t think 17 years of living with the Dursleys is going to stand in the way of him trying to save them if anything bad would happen to them. We know how he was treated, and especially knowing what comes later on in this chapter with Dudley, he’s already saved Dudley once. He’s proven that he would protect his family. This is the only family he’s got, as awful as it is.
Laura: It’s very true. I also would just remind all of us that Harry does, even to the bitter end, save Malfoy, even though Malfoy definitely doesn’t deserve it. So if he’s going to go out of his way to save Malfoy, even though Malfoy is constantly interfering and making things worse for Harry, I feel like he would also save the Dursleys. I don’t think he’d be happy about it. I think he’d be very begrudging and be like, “Oh, great, thank you for one more thing I have to do.”
Eric: Well, I’m convinced, actually. And I think that that’s a good thing, that Hestia and Dedalus are clearly capable enough that we don’t have to worry about it, that no tragedy befalls the Dursleys. Now, I mentioned earlier that Dudley is really the only Dursley that has sort of a redemption in this chapter. I’m wondering if there might be a second baby one, and it’s that Vernon ultimately decides to go along with the plan. Now, Vernon has changed his mind every day for the last four weeks, it’s said, and Harry is expecting… in fact, when he says, “I’ve changed my mind,” or “I have questions,” whatever, Harry is like, “Yeah, big surprise.” So is it redemptive, or is it a good thing…? Do we feel happy for Vernon that he’s chosen to be put in Wiz-ness Protection?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Or is it simply the best option?
Andrew: So Vernon, like you said, he’s been changing his mind. I’m surprised that Harry hasn’t said to him, “Look, this is only for a limited time. This isn’t forever.” Because Vernon is kind of talking like it is forever. “What am I going to do with my career? Dudley being on the road, this and that.” It’s a valid concern he has, but does he realize this is hopefully only for a few weeks or a few months, maybe? Because I think Vernon would change his tune on it if he knew that. But he talks like it’s forever.
Eric: Yeah. And Harry doesn’t want to promise, “Hey, Uncle, the way things have been going, by June 2 of next year, we’re out of here. It’s all good.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: It’s got to be a bit unsettling, though. I mean, you’ve got to feel for them in this situation, because they’re being completely uprooted from everything that they know. And honestly, I don’t really think they believe much in what’s happening in Harry’s world, right?
Andrew: No, no. They have vague information, they’re not a part of this world, so yeah, to your point, you can see why Vernon is further skeptical about doing this when he’s been largely in the dark and remains in the dark.
Eric: Yeah, I mean, I’m wondering if Harry mentioning the fog is a way of convincing him. “You’ve seen that on the news.” Again, it goes back to what Vernon has seen on TV. It’s like, “Okay, by now that’s a bit weird. That fog has been going on since a year ago.” Here’s a question: If Vernon can’t work, if he can’t keep his day job at Grunning’s drill company, what will the Dursleys do for food or money?
Andrew: [laughs] Aw, Vernon is most upset because he doesn’t get to work at the drill company for an extended period.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: I bet the Order can somehow hook them up with Muggle cash. I just imagine the Order having a bank of Muggle money that they have on…
Micah: Slush fund.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Or duplicate charms.
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, unless the Dursleys are pulling out of savings, but that doesn’t seem fair to them.
Micah: No. Or maybe Harry has got to bankroll this.
Eric: Yeah, Harry’s got a ton of gold. Yeah, I wonder if he receives weekly invoices and he looks it up and he’s like, “Dudley spent $37,000 on room service?”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I feel like they’d be able to work it out. I mean, look at the Weasleys, for example. Despite their economic circumstances, they never seem to want for meals, right? So I think they would just procure the food however it is that wizards do that.
Micah: I envision them in some kind of safe house. They’re not amongst either wizarding kind or Muggle kind. They’re under strict protection. Their food is being provided, all their amenities…
Andrew: By house-elves?
Micah: Maybe.
Eric: Probably house-elves, yeah.
[Ad break]
Eric: So here’s a question again. Final thought here about the Dursleys moving away and going into Wiz-ness Protection. I’m definitely trying to make that happen. What do we think are the Dursleys’ relationships with their neighbors? Are the neighbors going to miss them?
Andrew: Oh, no.
Eric: You know when that family that you never really interacted with on the block for many, many years moves away, and you’re like, “I wish I’d known them better”? Is anybody going to say that about the Dursleys?
Andrew: I think they’re going to wonder why they don’t see the Dursleys anymore, but they’re not going to maybe necessarily wonder if they moved away, because they would have seen a moving truck or something.
Laura: Yeah, I think the people who would have commentary would be the ones who would gossip anyway, so they’re probably going to come up with some crazy story about why the Dursleys left, and that’ll become the latest fodder for all of the housewives that Petunia likes to gossip with.
Eric: “Oh, I heard their troubled son did something horrible, and they had to move away to go into witness protection.”
Laura: Right.
Micah: Yeah. I mean, could there be memory modification on some of the neighbors too?
Andrew: Maybe.
Eric: Oh, they could forget about all the Dursleys.
Laura: Possibly.
Andrew: What about Mrs. Figg? She could just spread a rumor in the neighborhood that they’re on an extended vacation or something like that, on behalf of the Order. They can pass a message to her and she can spread the rumor throughout the gossip channels in the neighborhood.
Micah: But I don’t see them as neighborly at all.
Andrew: No.
Micah: I think they probably think that they’re more important than they are to the neighborhood, but I bet that most of their neighbors prefer not interacting with them in the slightest.
Eric: And something that I want to talk about – because Dumbledore was to some extent Harry’s family that is now gone – I want to talk about the family that never was. What could the Dursleys have been to Harry? And I want to examine… because each of them get this goodbye moment, this chance to either make or break, or put a bow, really, on the relationship with Harry, because this is presumably goodbye forever, and I’m pretty sure everyone botches it except Dudley. So let’s start with Vernon. In a pretty gauche move, Vernon extends his hand to Harry’s to shake it, then, deciding better on it, closes his hand into a fist, and dropping his arm to his side. So way to suck, dude. You had one job of being mildly professional. And to some extent, I admire Vernon for being such an ass. He’s principled, in a way. He’s not going to shake a hand of somebody who he doesn’t really genuinely like. Is that what’s going on here? He’s like, “Actually, this boy sucks. Why am I doing this?” And he pulls his hand back. What do we think is going on here?
Laura: I almost wonder if the handshake was a reflex, and then he thinks better of it because he’s like, “Oh, wait a second. Who are we talking about here? Screw this kid.”
Andrew: Yeah, and I kind of hate to say this, but I can understand why Vernon isn’t being so cordial here. I mean, he has to leave his own home, and it’s not really his fault. Even if he had treated Harry much nicer over the last 16 plus years, he still would be kicked out of this house right now. So I understand his frustrations. He’s never been a good person to Harry, so this doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. And I kind of get where he’s coming from.
Eric: Maybe they just paid off the mortgage.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: Maybe they were really looking forward to retiring here.
Andrew: This ain’t the first time he’s had to leave this house, too, going back to Sorcerer’s Stone.
Laura: Oh, man.
Micah: True.
Andrew: I mean, they were on the run there, and here we go again.
Laura: And actually, Eric, that’s a good point, because Vernon does make that allegation about, “Oh, you want to take the house.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: “You’re going to magic over the deed to yourself.” And I’m like, “Yeah, if I had just finished paying off my mortgage, I’d be worried about that too.”
Eric: “Because of all the happy memories?” I love Harry’s retort about all that.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: I just think Vernon can’t bring himself to show any sort of affection or respect towards his nephew, and I agree with the point about it almost being reflexive that he would extend his hand out, but then pulls it back. Now, the other reason, of course, that this happens is because it sets the scene for Dudley to be able to do it, and I think it’s very telling that Dudley is the one who can do what Vernon cannot, and that is shake Harry’s hand, and it shows so much growth and development and maturity on his part. And this was a deleted scene in Deathly Hallows – Part 1; we don’t actually get to see this moment between Harry and Dudley. Why they omitted it… pacing, I guess? [laughs] Isn’t that always the reasoning? But it’s one of actually two very important moments that were deleted from this particular moment in Deathly Hallows, the other being with Petunia, which we’ll talk about in a little bit.
Eric: It’s wild that the adaptation found the book to be so lacking in closure that even the Dursleys, who weren’t in all the movies, had scenes that were written and filmed with them to give better closure than what the book does, even though it wasn’t kept in. It’s kind of an interesting thing to note.
Laura: Yeah. I think what’s realistic about it, though, is that you don’t always get closure in life. Sometimes you just have crappy relationships with people and there’s no resolution.
Eric: Wow, Laura.
Laura: Sorry. [laughs]
Eric: Way to drive that home.
Andrew: Do you two still have a riff we’ve got to talk about right now?
Eric: Oh my God. I sent the pants back, okay?
Laura: Oh, I didn’t know that we were airing… [laughs]
Eric: I sent the pants back. You got them, and now they’re in our merch store. Can we get over this?
Laura: I know.
Eric: It’s been 20 years! I’m kidding.
Laura: Listen, I want a cut of the pants merch, okay?
Eric: You can’t have a cut of the pants merch!
Laura: Then we can bury the hatchet. [laughs]
Eric: Augh. I’m going to have to go into Wiz-ness Protection to hide from you.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: I know we’re sort of transitioning into Dudley anyway. In the case of how Dudley handles this versus how Vernon handles this, sometimes children are just more mature than their parents. I think we’ve probably all seen this. I think a good, if not grim, example is when a parent has some sort of substance abuse issues, their child will take up the mantle of taking care of them and/or the family. I mean, in my own neighborhood here, I saw this happen in recent months, and it’s equal parts frustrating that the parent is in that situation and can’t be the adult, and also so impressive how their child is stepping up into that role that the parent isn’t filling. This happens. The child is stepping up when the parent does not.
Eric: I love that point, Andrew. And I think, too, that kids, if we’re talking about prejudices – and Vernon is clearly prejudiced against wizards and Harry – the next generation, in sort of a hopeful way, kind of is a little bit more capable than their parents of questioning that prejudice, right? How many of us grew up and were told one thing or another, but then as the reality that we see around us doesn’t match that, we question it? We’re just more… we seem more capable or open-minded because we’re a generation removed from whatever caused our parents to be the way that they are. That’s what I think about that.
Andrew: Yeah, 100%.
Eric: So just wrapping up the Vernon part real quick, I guess what surprises me the most is that he’s being watched. Isn’t this whole thing about appearances? Isn’t this whole thing about “What would the neighbors think, etc.”? And Hestia and Dedalus are very closely watching this scene, because they’re being treated to the most important concert of their lives, Harry Potter saying goodbye to his relatives, the Chosen One. There’s two people, max, who are in this room that aren’t involved that could witness this, they’re watching closely, and Vernon still can’t do it. I guess he doesn’t care about them. Maybe if he had seen them on TV, he’d be more…
Andrew: [laughs] If Kingsley were there, would he have been behaving differently?
Micah: I don’t think he cares, though, about the wizarding community being present. Now, if his neighbors were present, maybe he would have behaved differently, but I don’t think he cares much for Hestia or Dedalus. It doesn’t move him at all.
Eric: Yeah. So okay, we’re moving on to Dudley. I would easily give Dudley points for most improved. This comes as a bit of a surprise. It really seems like ever since the life or death incident with the Dementors at the beginning of Book 5, the last two years Dudley has really been doing some thinking. It transpires that the cup of tea Harry stepped on earlier and was like, “What the heck was that doing here?” was actually due to Dudley sitting outside Harry’s room, maybe yearning for some kind of closure that he seeks to affect here, and I just don’t even know what to do with this. It’s a very sweet kind of scene; they’re all just kind of like, “Aw,” but what was Dudley doing out there in the hallway all this time?
Andrew: Is Dudley just incapable of knowing how to be nice to somebody?
Eric: That might be it, right?
Laura: Probably.
Andrew: I’m serious when I say that, because what does he think is going to happen when he leaves this plate and cup outside of Harry’s door? Why would Harry assume it was Dudley? I think Harry has every reason to believe that this was a prank, hoping that Harry was going to step on it and break his… crack open his foot or something like that.
Eric: Yeah. I love that question, because everything about Dudley, the script that he’s been given, has been to be cruel to people, right? And his parents encouraged it, and his tutors encouraged it; he went to a school that encouraged it. So maybe he doesn’t know how to be nice.
Laura: Probably.
Andrew: Yeah, and his friends suck, and I think he’s finally realizing he knows somebody who is actually good for the first time in his life, someone around his age who’s actually good, and he’s seeing this at sort of the end of the line, and he’s trying to make amends now.
Micah: I really like that, especially because… it may be hard to look at it this way, but they grew up in the same household, so they’re stepbrothers in a way.
Laura: Yeah. Well, and we even… oh, go ahead, Micah.
Micah: Well, the only other thing I was going to say is just this is the end of their time together.
Andrew: Yeah, and that’s really sad!
Laura: Yeah. Well, and to be honest, for however much Dudley may dislike Harry based on growing up together, Dudley still says, “Wait a second, why isn’t he coming with us?” Because Dudley very much views Harry as a member of the family unit because it’s all he’s ever known, right? So he’s like, “Why isn’t Harry coming?” I think the other thing… it’s very subtle here – I don’t know if anyone else noticed in the chapter – I feel like Dudley, apart from the Dementor attack… I think the Dementor attack kind of inspired a transformation for him, because you’ll notice that in the chapter, Dudley is no longer being described as pig-like or fat or any of the other pejoratives that get hurled his way the rest of the series. He’s described as very muscly, and that Vernon had difficulty lifting his trunk into the car because it was filled with dumbbells, right? So it’s very clear that Dudley has been through something that has inspired some kind of physical and mental transformation, and although he does this very clumsy job of trying to articulate his feelings, he still does it, which is more than I can say for either one of his parents.
Eric: I completely agree. Such bravery from Dudley to speak out, because his parents might just as well ridicule him too. Even just asking the question, “Why isn’t he coming with us?” or even just saying, “I don’t think you’re a waste of space” is everything. And given the environment he was raised in and the environment we see here, that alone is such an important action, and Harry is just dumbfounded by it.
Micah: Yeah. There’s this shift from the version that Dudley grew up with, which was heavily influenced by Vernon and Petunia, to the version of Harry that Dudley sees post-Dementor attack, which is that Harry is a real person. And this goes to what Andrew was saying at the end of the Vernon discussion, that at some point, you shed your parents’ viewpoints of a particular idea or individual and you form your own, and that’s what’s happened here for Dudley.
Eric: Yeah. Even though in the moment, Dudley was like, “He did something awful, he cast a spell,” pointing at Harry, he has since, it seems, clearly realized that Harry was the only one trying to save him. So I don’t know. Regarding the muscly appearance of Dudley now and the descriptors, I want to create a “Dudley Gets Swole” playlist…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: … so submit your tracks to us and…
[Andrew hums]
Eric: Yeah, what songs does Dudley listen to when he’s up there lifting weights in the safe house? And is he doing it to become a fitness influencer? Or what’s going on with Dudley?
Laura: Oh, geez.
Eric: So send us your thoughts. But okay, let’s go to Harry’s blood relative now, direct, his mother’s sister, Aunt Petunia. And if Dudley got points for most improved, Petunia loses all points for most disappointing, I think. She really… there’s clearly a lifetime of hurt and pain that a bigger person would be able to transform into some level of… if not catharsis, at least a remark. And Petunia leaves without saying anything. She’s almost going to; Harry intuits she’s going to say something… she just never does. She just leaves, and I’m just thinking, “Wow, what a letdown.”
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: She can’t bring herself to do it, ultimately.
Andrew: There was a deleted scene from the movie. I think this little moment in which Petunia says, “You didn’t just lose a mother; I lost a sister…” really touching. Only about a minute long; they could have kept it in. It’s really the last exchange of words between Harry and Petunia, but I think it was a great example of how splitting the book into two movies and letting the movies do their own read on the story can really add to the plot. This was not from the book. As we’re talking about right now, Petunia didn’t have anything to say, and I think this definitely should have been left in the movie, and it would have won fans over because it’s altering the book plot ever so slightly, but giving her a lot of character development in just a minute.
Eric: Yeah, and that’s why it’s kind of a letdown that nothing happens with Vernon or nothing happens with Petunia, because it could change… it stands to change how we see their entire relationship. You only get one goodbye, and it could recharacterize or force us to go back through every previous scene. Like, “Oh, if that line about Petunia’s that they used in the movie, she lost the sister… this whole time, she’s been mourning Lily? How can we read into her actions for that?” And it would have just been so interesting.
Micah: Yeah, I think that’s right, and I think that the movie gave us what was lacking in the book. There’s that moment, and I think the movie gave us most likely what was going through Petunia’s mind in that very moment. Now, why they cut both that and Dudley’s goodbye scene is still very puzzling to me…
Eric: [imitating David Yates] “Pacing. It was all about the pacing.”
Micah: … because I think they needed some kind of resolution. But for Petunia – and I wanted to get y’all’s thoughts on this – she’s clearly protected Harry this long because he’s Lily’s child, but one of the interesting things about Petunia is that I think her actions are more compassionate than her words. She’s very verbally harsh towards Harry, but if you look at the fact that she’s kept him for as long as she has in her house – albeit not under the best circumstances – but she still cared for him for all these years. So do you think it’s fair to say that her actions speak louder than her words?
Andrew and Laura: Yes.
Eric: I think so, but so does walking away, right? Instead of saying something like… maybe she did all she could with him, as far as that goes.
Micah: But is her walking away less about Harry and more about Lily? Or maybe more about herself and the fact that she was not admitted to Hogwarts all those years ago?
Eric: Yeah, I think that her walking away… if I were to be asked what does it mean, if there’s one read on it, I would probably say she’s assessed the damage and the help that she’s done to Harry in this moment, she either has a choice to answer for the imperfections of it, or leave and not address how she was at times a horrible parent/guardian of him. I think that Petunia, who this chapter is still fawning over Diddykins, and “Oh, he’s so brave for saying this,” and just… she doesn’t have that instinct for Harry at all. She can’t even fake it, just like Vernon can’t fake a handshake. And so, with that glaring juxtaposition, faced with how easily she goes to Dudley’s side – and how, the opposite of that, not easily she goes to Harry’s – she could answer for it; I think people are expecting her to answer for it. She’s just walking away because she did what she could. She got him this far. Bye. There’s nothing to say.
Andrew: J.K. Rowling actually addressed what happened in Petunia’s mind on her old website, so this quote is very hard to find. You have to go into the Internet Archive to actually find the original page. Remember that old school text version of her website?
Eric: Well, the text-only version of the original page, right?
Andrew: Right, right, right. So this was from her frequently asked questions section of the old site. The question was, “What did Petunia want to say to Harry at the end of ‘The Dursleys Departing’?” And Rowling replied, “I think that for one moment she trembled on the verge of wishing Harry luck; that she almost acknowledged that her loathing of his world, and of him, was born out of jealousy. But she couldn’t do it; years of pretending that ‘normal’ was best had hardened her too much.” So I’m glad that was addressed because, as we’re talking about here, it would have been really nice to actually have had an exchange.
Eric: Yeah, God. “Good luck” coming from Petunia? Wild.
[Andrew laughs]
Odds & Ends
Eric: So I know we had a connecting the threads up above a little bit, and we do have some odds and ends. Who wants to take the first one?
Andrew: Yeah, I think Laura and I both have a thread to connect. So Dedalus Diggle is tasked with picking up the Dursleys, and what jumped out to me about this is that Dedalus actually bumped into Vernon in Book 1, so that kind of brings the Dedalus plot line full circle.
Micah: They’re old buddies.
Andrew: We’ve also seen paparazzi photos of Dedalus and Vernon bumping into each other in the upcoming TV show, so they’re being loyal in that regard. And then Laura, you had a thread?
Laura: Yeah, so Harry actually points this out to Vernon when he’s like, “You know what? We’re going to pack up and go, and we’re going to run away.” And Harry is like, “Yeah, do you remember the last time you tried to run away from wizards?” Referring to Hagrid busting down the door of their cabin in Book 1.
Eric: Oh my God.
Laura: So there was a lot of nice full circle moments in this chapter.
Eric: Love it. I wanted to mention… I seem to remember a theory, but it turns out there’s more to this, that Dudley is going to grow up and have a magical kid? And so the Dudley/Harry relationship is softer in the far future, like epilogue era. But I didn’t remember this being based on anything that the author may have said. Micah, you found something?
Micah: Yeah, also had to do some digging on the Internet because Pottermore is no more.
Andrew: [laughs] Potter-No-More.
Micah: But thank you, Andrew, for actually finding a legitimate source. But yeah, J.K. Rowling admitted that her original plan for Dudley was to include him in the epilogue at King’s Cross. He would have appeared with his magical children and sent them along to Hogwarts along with Harry’s children. However, she ultimately decided that Uncle Vernon, who wholly despised anything unusual, could not have ended up with magical grandchildren. She determined that his DNA simply would not have allowed it.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: Which, I didn’t know DNA could do that, but apparently…
Eric: Yeah, it’s one of those authorisms. It’s funny. It doesn’t necessarily work in the world necessarily.
Laura: Yeah, it doesn’t actually make sense, but it’s funny.
Lynx Line
Eric: Now, I’m really excited for our Lynx Line segment. So we asked our patrons, and we too are going to answer. It’s sort of another “What if?” In this chapter, the Dursleys, of course, are going off with Dedalus Diggle and Hestia Jones into the unknown. What adventures will they go on over the next year? And we told our listeners to write either what they think will happen for sure, or come up with something amusing. Andrew, kick us off.
Andrew: Yeah, so I think this would be a very Odd Couple situation, that old TV show. I never watched it, but you always hear about an Odd Couple type of situation. Vernon and Dedalus are constantly butting heads as they try to deal with each other’s “type of people” and way of living. Think of how Arthur is fascinated by Muggles and their everyday objects. Dedalus would totally do the same, and Vernon would be very frustrated by the constant questions about Muggle life. And then meanwhile, Vernon, of course, would be repulsed every time Dedalus and Hestia so much as look at him with a magic twinkle in their eyes, and they will never have a second of being comfortable around one another.
Laura: I love that.
Eric: I like it.
Laura: That’s fun. I went with a plot twist, just based on how we see Dudley show up in this chapter, and really starting to open up more to Harry. My plot twist is that Dudley is the one who starts Potterwatch while on the road with Dedalus and Hestia, so he can keep up with the goings-on of his cousin.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I really love that.
Laura: We are Dudley.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: I was going to make a joke about Dudley being Melissa Annelli, but yeah, I think that works.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I think that… okay, I also have kind of a plot twist of sorts, and it’s that after three days of living with an infinite food supply – magically replenishing, of course – Dudley and therefore Vernon and Petunia will become completely hooked on wizard lifestyle and wizard living, and they’ll move somewhere warm and have Dedalus and Hestia be basically their magical servant friends at an estate made entirely from magic. And yes, of course, this would make them huge hypocrites, but I think that they will soon find magic’s conveniences to be all too alluring, and even the biggest skeptic will find… I think they’ll relax. I think the Dursleys are going to start liking magic pretty quick.
Andrew: A very generous take.
Micah: And I went with Vernon spending the entire year demanding to speak to whoever’s in charge of the Wiz-ness Protection Program, only to discover nobody is.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?”
Laura: That sounds about right.
Eric: I love this, when it comes to a head after a year, and Dedalus is like, “I never said there was anybody in that office. Our leader’s gone.”
Andrew: So over on Patreon, Jenn said, “I like to think they went back to the hut on the rock from the first book when they were hiding from Harry’s letters.” Yeah, bring it back to the beginning.
Eric: I like that. Zach says,
“Dedalus had the inside info on a huge opportunity: the Goblins of Gringotts were looking for someone to provide them with a massive drill contract! Gotta dig those tunnels under the bank somehow… so all three Dursleys spent the next year working at Gringotts! Hilarity ensues…”
I think this is brilliant.
Micah: Robert says,
“Of course, Vernon and Petunia were the worst possible guests any wizarding hosts had to put up with. But Dudley soon became fascinated by this strange new world, and slowly began to see that the awful things he’d been taught by his parents weren’t really true, and that explains why in later life, he had an amicable relationship with his cousin Harry and his children he came to regard as his niblings.”
Eric: Ugh, we need to stop nibling and pibling from taking over discourse. I hate the words.
Laura and Micah: What does that mean?
Eric: It’s an agender version of nephew or aunt/uncle.
Andrew: Huh.
Laura: I see.
Eric: And there’s got to be a better way. There’s got to be a better way to do it.
Andrew: Yeah, that word’s a little strange.
Laura: Yeah. I don’t know why, it just… I don’t know, feels weird.
Andrew: It’s the “nib” part. “Nibble.”
Eric: It seems like “nibble on.” Like “nibble.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: And pibble is a breed of dog.
Laura: Susan simply says, “Camping!” That would actually be really funny because that’s what Harry is going to do this book too.
Andrew: Yeah, on theme. John said, “They went on a Viking river cruise around Europe.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Why a Viking river cruise? I like that. I like that a lot. Carlee says,
“They finally give Vernon that vacation home in Majorca that he was so upset about missing out on in Chamber of Secrets!”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: You know what? I bet someone at the Order remembered that they pulled that prank, and…
Andrew: I think this is the winning answer.
Eric: Yeah, that’s going to be good.
Micah: Well, we’ll see what Rachel has to say about that.
“My Percy Jackson and Greek mythology nerd brain is loving this question because I’d forgotten there were characters named Dedalus and Hestia! Naturally Dedalus had to send them through the Labyrinth a.k.a. the NYC subway without a map. Hestia showed up occasionally with snacks or comfy clothes, representing her namesake goddess of the hearth and home.”
Eric: Wow.
Andrew: Thanks, everybody who participated on Patreon, and that concludes this week’s Chapter by Chapter. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can send an email or a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via Spotify or YouTube, or DM us on social.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And before we wrap up, it’s time for the answer to this week’s Quizzitch question.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Of course, this question was: In this chapter, the Dursleys are carted away by Hestia Jones and Dedalus Diggle. Dedalus Diggle’s reputation precedes him, and what was it that McGonagall accused him of doing in Chapter 1 of Book 1? And the correct answer is shooting stars in Kent. Now, this does not bode well for the protection of the Dursleys, because McGonagall adds to that, “He never had much sense.” And I wouldn’t want anyone calling…
Micah: You see?
Eric: Somebody who’s taking me into Wiz-ness Protection, I would not want it to be said about them that they don’t have much sense.
Andrew: I like how McGonagall just knew that it had to be Dedalus. Like, “Shooting stars? In Kent? That’s such a Dedalus thing.”
Eric: Yeah, Kent is a big place; it’s down the country… “Oh, yeah, I bet that was… so Dedalus.”
Andrew: “He’s known to cause mayhem in Kent.” We are taking off next week, so we will see you in two weeks from now. We haven’t had a break yet during the summer, so we’re going to do that over the next week. But the following week, we will discuss Chapter 4 of Deathly Hallows, “The Seven Potters,” so keep on reading Potter, everybody. Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. Thank you all so much for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: See you later, Big D.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: You’re talking to the Discord, right?
[Andrew laughs]