Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #764, Ear Today, Gone Tomorrow (DH Chapter 5, Fallen Warrior)
Cold Open
Micah: I thought some of the 2FA or 2WFA questions were pretty weak, to be honest with you.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Like, “What were the last words Albus Dumbledore spoke to the both of us?”
Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “I like Bombas for my socks. Very soft.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, gathering to talk about the books and the movies and the TV show. Follow us in your favorite podcast app for new episodes every Wednesday. And this week, reconsider your signature spell, because we’re discussing the implications of leaning on one spell too often in Chapter 5 of Deathly Hallows, “Fallen Warrior.” But first, this week’s Quizzitch question.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: How late is Kingsley Shacklebolt for his meeting over at Downing Street? He says this as he departs in this chapter. If you’re playing at home, ponder that cue.
Andrew: Listeners like you playing Quizzitch right now make this show possible. If you enjoy MuggleCast as much as George loves grim humor, we’d love your support in a bunch of different ways. The first and best way is to support us at Patreon.com/MugGoCast. You can become a member of our community right there. You’ll receive new bonus episodes of the show every month, ad-free episodes, access to our recording studio, an on-air shout-out, and lots more. And we can’t do this without you, so thank you in advance. We’d also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app or told a fellow Muggle about our show. And finally, you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: Now it’s time for the scariest game in podcasting as we enter Chapter 5 of Deathly Hallows: It’s the Seven-Word Summary. Everybody ready?
Laura: Dreading it.
[Micah makes a gasp/hiccup noise]
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: That should be the first word.
Andrew: Micah, please make that noise every week going forward.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: I don’t know that I could do it exactly like that, but you have it on record.
Andrew: [laughs] That’ll be the fun of it.
Laura: Yeah, it’s recorded, so just grab it.
Micah: Okay, I’ll do it.
Andrew: Oh, okay, so it’s the new…
Micah: “Choo-choo.” I don’t know if it’ll sound like that, but…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Micah: Paranoia…
Laura: … ensues…
Andrew: … as…
Eric: … survivors…
Micah: … return…
Andrew: … from…
Laura: … danger?
Andrew: Yeah! [laughs] No, that was great.
Laura: I would give this one a… what are the OWL options?
Eric: Acceptable, Outstanding, Poor, Dreadful…
Laura: Yeah, Acceptable. I’d give it an Acceptable. It’s fine.
Andrew: It’s a complete sentence.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Andrew: So first of all, before we get into the details, I just want to say it must have been so scary reading this chapter for the first time because you’re going into this with a chapter titled “Fallen Warrior.” So someone on the good side must have died, but who? Sorry, with peace and love to Hedwig, Hedwig was not a warrior…
Micah: What?
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: … so the name of the chapter can’t be for Hedwig. It’s got to be for somebody else.
Eric: Well, you ever see Hedwig destroy a mouse? Hedwig was a fierce warrior.
Micah: Yes, she was. Thank you, Eric.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, and also, just to add on to it, how the previous chapter concludes with Hagrid basically spread eagle on the ground below, presumably dead. Because even if he’s half-giant, he’s still falling I don’t know how many hundreds of feet.
Laura: Right, that’s the thing. The way it’s written makes it seem like Hagrid has fallen from a great height, because he falls, and at a certain point, Harry can’t see him anymore once he’s falling. So this implies that it’s a lot.
Eric: But we mentioned last week the Looney Tunes logic; it’s just a Hagrid-shaped hole in the ground and he picks himself up and he’s like, “Oh, that was rough!”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: “Nothing I can’t handle.”
Micah: Maybe he landed on the Death Eater, so it gave him a little bit of cushion.
Eric: Oh, broke his fall.
Andrew: That poor Death Eater. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, man.
Laura: Well, you know what? It was fast, then. You can say that at least, for the poor Death Eater. It was quick. Gave him a quick death.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: I mentioned before on the show, but a habit that I kept and maintained the whole read of Harry Potter for the first time is I would read the chapter list, the table of contents, prior to reading the book, and so “Fallen Warrior,” getting to that, and it’s Chapter 5, I remember just being like, “Oh my God, this starts so strong.” And of course, the book starts… Chapter 1 is insane, and there’s a murder. But yeah, I was just expecting it to be very balls to the wall, and it did not disappoint.
Andrew: So risky. That’s so risky, for any book.
Eric: It’s a little risky, but it also… because I don’t… I actually seek spoilers sometimes, so it’s like, this gives me enough of a taste of where the book is going, even though what you think a chapter title means is not always what a chapter title…
Andrew: True.
Eric: Like “The Unexpected Task.” I could not have told you when reading Goblet of Fire what that was going to be. A dance? Never would have crossed my mind.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: So yeah, but it keeps things exciting, or did at that time. If anybody else did that, please message. Let me know I’m not alone.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But yeah, “Fallen Warrior” is very apt, and you don’t know the entire chapter really who it’s going to be, because everyone’s coming back in bits. So I think this is really smart.
Laura: Eric, the fact that you said everyone’s coming back in bits and George comes back literally maimed is just perfect choice of words there.
Eric: Thank you, thank you.
Laura: We’re not going to sit in suspense here. We all know what happens, right? Ultimately, the plan worked as designed. Harry was safely delivered to the Tonkses’ safe house, where he and Hagrid were able to catch a Portkey to convene with the full group at the Burrow. We’ll chat a little bit more about the Tonkses in a little bit, but this is really where the fallout, I think, becomes even more evident. Obviously, we’ve had the first taste of this with losing Hedwig, and also the fact that Harry and Hagrid have arrived here and Harry at first thinks Hagrid is dead. They don’t know where anyone else is. But once they arrive at the Burrow, and everyone starts coming in at various times each of these pairings comes in, we learn that Moody has died, that he had accurately predicted that Voldemort would come after him first as the most powerful Auror in the group, and as we called out in last week’s episode, Mundungus was like, “Uh, what the hell? He can fly? Nope. Deuces. I’m out.”
Andrew: Yeah. One tragic element here concerning Moody is that just last chapter he was the one really pushing this plan hard. He believed it was their best option, and he basically led the charge on forcing Harry to do it, [laughs] because we remember Harry did not want to do it. So just thinking about how the biggest proponent of this idea ends up dead, it’s really sad.
Laura: It did make me wonder – and of course, we kind of covered this in last week’s episode – but we know the idea comes from Dung, in so far as everyone here is aware, the idea for the Seven Potters and the Polyjuice Potion. And so why wouldn’t Moody be like, “Cool, we’ll take your idea and find a different adult”? I know we kind of talked about this last week, but it just seems like Mundungus is more of a liability than anything else to have here.
Eric: The Order’s got to be scraped thin, I guess, a little bit? I mean, if they sent a few people off with the Dursleys, Dumbledore is gone, their leader, they’re in the dark… several people have to be at these safe houses to manage all of that, and that leaves… there’s like 25 people in the Order.
Laura and Micah: Yeah.
Laura: That’s true. A lot of them are dead.
Micah: I think that’s right. It’s a numbers game for the Order. At this moment in time, they only have so many folks that they could rely upon for something like this, and Dung isn’t the best choice, but he’s probably the most convenient option.
Laura: Yeah. Where’s Charlie? I mean, we’ve already got half the Weasley family volunteering themselves anyway.
Andrew: [laughs] What’s one more to put in harm’s way?
Eric: Wow. Charlie gets a pass; he’s in Romania.
Micah: What about Neville?
Andrew: I mean, hell, with that in mind, there should be one or two less Weasleys, I think. Having three involved in this seems way too risky for that family.
Laura: It’s more than three, right?
Eric: Micah, I’m glad you mentioned Neville, because I did think about him…
Andrew: Is it four?
Laura: It’s four.
Eric: Arthur, Fred, George, Ron…
Micah: Bill.
Laura: Bill. No, yeah, five. And then Fleur, because she’s married into the…
Andrew: This poor family.
Laura: I know.
Eric: They’re the Gryffindors! I don’t feel like that got the support it needed last week, but they’re Gryffindors. They’re brave. The Weasleys are brave. They are the heroes. So yeah, the thing I wanted to mention – Micah, you mentioned – Neville would absolutely be, I think, a willing and pretty good candidate, but for some reason, even though his parents were Order members and thrice defied Voldemort just like Lily and James did, there doesn’t… we never see him around Grimmauld Place. We never see his grandmother. Maybe she puts a stop to it; maybe his grandmother excludes… doesn’t let Dumbledore familiarize Neville with the Order more, and maybe she prevents him from being a full-fledged Order member until when Harry recruits him later in the book.
Laura: Yeah. No, I mean, it’s clear that Neville, a lot like Ginny and Luna, gets to know some stuff at the opportune moment, as Dumbledore intended, right? So it’s, I think, too early to involve Neville here.
Andrew: As for the others, like Luna and Ginny – I mentioned this last week too – I just feel like it’s better to use a questionable adult Order member than a rock solid child, whether or not they are of age, because you don’t want to sacrifice one of these younger people, or potentially sacrifice them.
Eric: The children are our future.
Andrew: Right.
Laura: That’s true, but in using this less valuable adult, you lost probably your most valuable adult.
Andrew: Good point.
Laura: It’s like playing chess, right? When you’re thinking about sacrifices you have to make, you have to be strategic about the losses you’re going to take.
Andrew: Yep.
Eric: What I will say is I think, Andrew, you characterize it perfectly where it’s the shock of Mundungus departing that ultimately leads to Moody’s death. I think that because Dung sucks – and we all love to hate on Dung – I feel like he probably would have assumed that Mad-Eye was competent enough to defend himself. Dung never could have predicted that his Disapparating would have directly led to distracting Moody, which caused him to get a curse. I don’t think that was his intention. He was behaving cowardly, but he assumes he’s got the best protector; the protector’s good on their own. He’s not really thinking, but I assume that’s what he’s thinking.
Micah: But in fairness to Mundungus, he probably didn’t know the line of thinking that Moody and potentially other members of the Order had, which is that Moody would have been the likely first target. So that would put Mundungus in tremendous danger, and I think once he recognized what was going on, he dipped.
Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Micah: Why would you not put Mundungus with anybody else? Putting him with Moody really does put Moody in greater danger.
Andrew: Well, isn’t part of it that Moody can keep a better eye on Dung? Pun not intended.
Eric: Yes, which means they should… they already suspected that Dung was going to dip out, which if they did, they shouldn’t have used him.
Andrew: [laughs] And yet, evidently, they trusted him enough to put him in this very important mission.
Laura: Yeah, which I guess, again, just speaks to the fact that beggars can’t be choosers. And Mad-Eye was like, “Well, if we’re going to have to make a crappy choice, I guess I can be in charge of making sure the crappy choice doesn’t go anywhere.” But, oops. Well, everyone, we’re going to talk about sort of high level the fallout here that impacts all of our characters, and then we’re going to talk a little bit later about security protocols and whether or not we think those are effective here. But George and Arthur come back; George has lost an ear, which also rattles the group. But then he notes to his mother that she’ll finally be able to tell the difference between the twins now, and I felt like a really bad person because I was like, “Well, in a year, she’s really going to be able to tell the difference between the twins.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yikes. Yikes-eroni.
Laura: Oops.
Andrew: One’s all bones.
Laura: [laughs] But Eric, you called out just the humor here, the levity of the moment. This is also something we got to see in the movie, which was nice to see it brought over verbatim.
Eric: Yeah, I like it. I think if anybody’s going to be able to make a joke here, it’s going to be these two. I feel like when reading this, both the first time and now, though, things are just so dire, the mood is set, that it’s not only unexpected when George cracks a joke, but it doesn’t quite land for me, because…
Micah: Really?
Eric: I’m glad he’s trying. It’s in character for him to try. But I’m still like, “Who else died?” Or if this is the first people to come back and he’s lost an ear, what are the egregious wounds that everyone else has suffered?
Andrew: Possibly, yeah. But some people, I think this is just how they cope.
Laura: No, I think you’re right. To correct myself here too, though, it was actually Lupin who was there with George; Arthur is with Fred. Just goes to show that George has a point here in saying, “Hey, you’ll be able to finally tell the difference between us.” But it’s at this point Harry and Lupin have a very tense exchange that we’re going to talk about here in a few minutes.
Eric: Oof.
Laura: But Lupin, in this tense exchange, also identifies ultimately what gave Harry away, which we discussed last week as well, was the fact that he tried to disarm Stan Shunpike instead of Stunning him, and I wanted to dig in on this a little bit and see whether we agree with Harry or Lupin more. Harry ultimately says, “Listen, Voldemort is doing a good enough job of killing people. I don’t need to kill people. If I had Stunned Stan, he would have fallen to his death.” What was interesting to me, though, is that Harry was definitely Stunning other people in the chapter.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: It was just when he saw Stan’s face, he couldn’t do it.
Eric: There’s a difference.
Micah: Here’s the thing, though: If Harry chose not to disarm Stan, Stan would have still had his wand. As he was falling, he could have put out his wand hand, called the Knight Bus, and landed on a mattress.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Oh, landed on a mattress with a cup of tea waiting for him.
Micah: See?
Andrew: A mattress on the top of the Knight Bus?
Micah: Of the bus.
Laura: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, the roof seat.
Eric: Amazing.
Laura: But how do we feel about this? Do we see where Harry and Lupin are coming from? Where do we fall on this debate between these characters?
Eric: What I appreciate about it is that it’s not quite like Hermione pointing out Harry’s saving people thing in I think… is it Book 4? I feel like that, when it came out, was unfounded and rude of Hermione. Here, Lupin is just interested in understanding how Harry was outed, because he feels like there might be a traitor in their midst, which unfortunately is probably a feeling he’s felt multiple times and been correct about multiple times in his life, poor guy. But I appreciate that it takes Lupin a minute before he starts to say, “Oh, this is what happened. You can’t use Expelliarmus; they’re expecting you to use that spell.” He at least listens to everything Harry says, and then is like, “Ah,” that “Aha” moment. And so it’s hard truth for Harry to hear, but he’s not flashy about it. He’s not rubbing it in Harry’s face. He’s just kind of like, “This is what happened.” And Harry can’t, I think, handle the heat of the guilt or the accusation in the moment of, “What do you mean? I couldn’t… what else was I to do?”
Andrew: Yeah. Lupin is right, and I think this also brings up an interesting conversation about leaning on spells too often from an individual perspective. I feel like this concept in which you rely on certain spells should actually be an area to focus on in DADA classes. We all have our certain words and actions that we rely on in day-to-day life, and people can catch on to these actions or behaviors and then use them to take advantage of us, and this is kind of what’s happening with Harry. It gives him away; that is his signature spell. We’ve made fun of it on the show for years and years that he loves Expelliarmus a little too much. For him, it’s like using your dominant hand instinctively. So I think DADA classes should actually probably teach not being so dependent on certain spells. I mean, also, as a wizard, you want to be rotating through spells more often…
Eric: Versatile.
Andrew: … just to keep you, yeah, in practice.
Laura: Yeah. Did y’all notice that this actually would happen in Hogwarts Legacy if you relied too much on a particular method or spell set? Your opponents would call it out?
Andrew: Oh, no, I didn’t know that.
Laura: Yeah, because I…
Andrew: I was so versatile I never ran into that issue.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: Oh, I see.
Micah: You were just going around AK-ing everyone.
Andrew: [laughs] No.
Laura: That was the… well, I kind of was.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: But I tended to use a combination of curses, hexes, and then I loved using plants, so I always had a Venomous Tentacula in my back pocket that I could throw out there that would poison everybody. And so I would have utter mayhem, I would set these poisonous plants loose, and then I would curse everybody, and inevitably, there would be somebody in the mayhem who would be like, “Oh, the Herbologist is here.” They would call it out because I used them all the time.
Eric: What?!
Andrew: Wow, that’s cool.
Micah: That is very cool.
Andrew: Also, I’m not sure I ever used a plant to attack somebody in Hogwarts Legacy.
Micah: I think you have to.
Laura: Oh my God, you can have mandrakes and Tentaculas and…
Eric: What are the little guys? Are they…? I want to say Chizpurfles. That’s not it. Cabbages.
Laura: Yeah, the Chomping Cabbages, and they would hop around and attack people.
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: Just the most chaotic…
Micah: You’re missing out, Andrew.
Laura: Honestly, yeah, it’s the best. Seriously, let a bunch of plants loose and then curse everybody. It’s amazing. Top tier way to play that game.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: “Oh, the Herbologist is here!”
Andrew: Maybe I did it for a mission, but I never added it to my repertoire.
Laura: Ahh, okay.
Eric: You did it during the plant tutorial of how to do it.
Andrew: Yeah, right.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Those things they teach you, and then you don’t actually use them.
[Ad break]
Micah: So just to add on to the Lupin conversation, I think – and it was brought up – Lupin is almost very soft in how he approaches this, but this is war. And the other piece of it that has bothered me quite a lot is they were in Privet Drive for enough of a period of time where Lupin could have pulled Harry to the side – anybody could have pulled Harry to the side – and said, “Harry, look. They know your tell is Expelliarmus. Do not, under any circumstances, use this spell to defend yourself. You know plenty of other options. You’ve been at Hogwarts for six years at this point. Use anything but that spell.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: And Harry is just like, “Nah. Not going to.”
Eric: “I’m good, man.”
Micah: It’s worked against Voldemort.
Andrew: “You know what, Lupin? Expelliarmus.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Yeah, “Quiet, you! Expelliarmus.” Also, Harry has no reason to learn anything from this encounter, because what spell does he use that finishes Voldemort in the end?
Laura: His signature spell.
Andrew: And that’s why I think we make fun of him so much, yeah. I guess that’s kind of the irony in it. It gave him away, and then it helped him win at the end.
Laura: And Snape taught it to him, which we called out last week too. But there is beautiful irony in that.
Eric: Doesn’t get old.
Laura: But in this exchange, we are seeing the beginnings of a rift between Harry and Lupin’s characters in this book, and they never really recover from it before Lupin dies. I think the closest thing you could argue is that Harry does get to converse with the apparition that he sees of Lupin when he turns the Resurrection Stone thrice in hand at the end of the book, but is that actually Lupin? But Lupin observes, when they’re having this back and forth here… because it eventually turns to Lupin wanting to point fingers at the group and be like, “Okay, who betrayed us?” And Harry is incredibly stoic, super Gryffindor-esque, and is like, “You know what? I trust everyone in this room. If somebody leaked it, it was an accident, and they probably feel really bad about it,” is basically the approach that Harry is taking here. And what I find really interesting about this is that Lupin observes… and it feels like this is the first time that Harry’s character is compared to that of his father, because we’re so used to Harry’s nature being compared to Lily, and Harry really only being compared to James through physicality. And Lupin is like, “Hey, just a little reminder, your dad also thought he could trust all of his friends, and we see how that went.” I think Lupin is being a little paranoid here – as a throwback to our Seven-Word Summary – but I don’t blame him.
Andrew: No, I don’t either. I love what he said, that “We’re in war right now. There is no time for just disarming people.” Even when you’re having… I mean, this is part of war. It’s these serious, impossible decisions that you have to make in real time. But I could also counter this by, if I were Harry, saying, “Hey, this is the fog of war, man. It’s just in my character to not go and kill Stan Shunpike. I’ve got to do something that I’m more comfortable doing in the moment.”
Eric: Yeah, and I think part of it, too, is the glossy look on Stan’s face. Harry knows he’s not acting of his own accord, Harry knows that he’s been caught up in all of this, and the heart, the love, the part that saves Harry in the end, his big old heart is what outs him in this moment.
Andrew: And Harry does say, I think, in this chapter that Stan “must have” been Imperiused. So whether or not it was true, he was convinced, and that’s all that matters in this scenario when Harry is making a spur of the moment decision.
Eric: Yeah, Lupin doesn’t answer Harry when Harry accuses him, “What should I have done? I wasn’t going to… he would have fallen to his death then. I couldn’t do that.” And there’s no answer to that because it’s an impossible situation.
Andrew: Also, I’m just thinking… Hedwig died before this Stan moment, right? So again, this is happening so fast. You don’t really have time to think about all this. But if I were Harry and I did have more time, if time suddenly slowed down, I’d be like, “Oh my gosh, Hedwig just died, and now I’m potentially having to kill Stan?”
Eric: An innocent?
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, that’s really hard.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, it’s really easy for us to sit here and opine on what should or shouldn’t have happened, but in the moment when things like this are moving so quickly, it makes sense that Harry sort of defaults to his standard nature.
Micah: With Lupin, though, is it a bit of triggering for him where he is going back to that moment of James and Lily being betrayed?
Laura: Sure, I think so.
Micah: And that’s why he chooses to make that particular comparison of Harry to James? I fully agree – and I know we’re going to get into it more – it’s really the atmosphere, right? It’s the paranoia that is just pervasive throughout this entire chapter that is causing people to act in ways they otherwise probably wouldn’t.
Eric: Well, it’s an interesting moment of leadership for Harry because he puts a stop to it. I don’t think he really believes 100% that none of them gave up the other. I think that he says that; that’s something the leader says to prevent infighting at a time when he feels they need to get together. So he absolves everybody in advance. I get the sense that when he says, “For the record, I don’t think any one of you did this,” and then they move on, they were about to get really ugly with each other, kind of trying to figure out who did what.
Laura: Totally.
Micah: And he’s being thrust into this leadership position.
Laura: Well, let’s move into the next part of our discussion, which is to analyze the security protocols that are in place here. But before we get into that, I just wanted to have a quick “Max that” discussion.
[“Max that” sound effect plays]
Laura: I think that in the TV show, we need to see a multi-POV of the various pairings navigating the Seven Potters plan, because it’s in this chapter that we actually get to hear what each pair encounters along the way. So obviously Harry and Hagrid would be the main point of view. I think Moody and Mundungus, we would spend the least amount of time with them, but we would see Voldemort appear, right? And then it would cut away and leave the anticipation to figure out what happened to Moody until the next episode. Bill and Fleur, we know they witness Moody’s death. Tonks and Ron, this would be really interesting. We hear that they are heavily pursued by Bellatrix, and Tonks specifically calls out, “She wants me almost as much as she wants Harry,” because we have to remember she’s Bellatrix’s niece. Bellatrix considers her whole branch of the family blood traitors. We get to see Lupin and George in the moment when George has his ear Sectumsempra‘d off, because Snape is the one who does it…
Eric: Augh.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: … which I think would be a key thing to include in there. And briefly, Kingsley and Hermione are pursued by Voldemort, until Voldemort realizes that Harry is using that little signature spell and then he goes after them. So I think it would just be a really interesting way to tell the story differently from how they did it in the movie by giving us snippets of what each character is experiencing, because in a TV show format, we don’t really want all the characters to come and tell the audience what happened, right? Doesn’t make sense. I think it would make more sense to get to see everybody.
Andrew: Yeah, and I’m also thinking we can finally… [laughs] Last week we were talking about the, as Eric put it, Looney Tunes logic of Harry keeping his sidecar afloat. I want to see how that’s brought to screen…
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: … because again, that’s just not making sense to me. I do not…
Laura: No.
Andrew: The author, I feel, has an issue with writing busy scenes. I’m mainly thinking of Quidditch.
Laura: Yes.
Micah: Well, this is like Quidditch.
Andrew: My brain just shuts down every time I read Quidditch. Yeah, exactly, and it’s just as chaotic. It’s more chaotic, obviously. But she can’t write busy stuff like this. [laughs]
Micah: No.
Andrew: And so I just can’t wait to see how it’s adapted.
Micah: I would love to see this type of an adaptation. And there’s other little things that are happening too. Laura, when you were talking about Snape using Sectumsempra, it’s actually to protect George and Lupin, but…
Laura: Yep. They don’t see it that way at the time.
Micah: No, and it’s almost like he’s using it to hit the wand arm of the Death Eater that is about to cast a Killing Curse – or actually, I think does cast a Killing Curse – but it misses George because George’s ear gets lopped off by accident. So all works out in the end. But then I think even when Kingsley gets back to the Burrow, he talks about how he thinks he killed a Death Eater, so seeing that actually happen versus, I don’t know, secondhand, as you were saying, it would be a very cool sequence to watch unfold.
Laura: It would. And I think, too, something that the movie made me forget was that the plan was for each pair to head to a separate safe house first before going to the Burrow, which I think is an infinitely better plan than how this comes across in the movie version, because everybody going to the same place – and especially when the end destination is the Burrow – it’s like, “Duh.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: So I think it does make a lot more sense if they figure out a way to tell the story as it happened as much as possible from the book, but that’s an area where actually, if I was going to rate the effectiveness of the plan and its security protocols, I feel like this move of “Meet up at separate locations and then Portkey to the main location” I think makes a lot more sense. So I would like… this makes me feel a little more confident about this plan than I would have been when we were discussing last week. But what I really want to talk about is the whole identity verification system that’s going on here, the wizards’ 2FA.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: 2WA?
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Yeah. So first of all, the only people who ultimately have to prove their identities are Harry, Lupin, and Kingsley. They try to confirm Arthur’s, but he’s like, “Get out of my way! I’m going to go see my son.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: And I don’t think they ever bother to confirm it after that.
Andrew: Would a Death Eater ever act like that, though? [laughs]
Laura: Yes!
Eric: Well, this could be the Death Eater that did that to his son!
Laura: Right, so that’s the thing. So social engineering is the most powerful tool when it comes to breaking security protocol, and when people are doing social engineering, the number one tactic they use is urgency and panic, right? So if somebody is pretending to be an aggrieved father who’s like, “Oh my God, my son’s injured, I have to get in to see him,” your natural impulse is going to be to want to get out of that guy’s way, right?
Andrew: This is like older generations will get prank called, and people will pretend they’re their grandson.
Laura: Yes.
Andrew: “Grandma, I just got thrown in jail! I need $50,000 to bail me out! Help me, help me, help me!” And they’re so frazzled that they send the money wherever without thinking it through. You guys are laughing, but this is a real thing that happens.
Micah: No, I know.
Laura: It is a real thing.
Eric: I think we’ve all probably done some phishing training resources. I know, Laura, you’re up on yours for social engineering. Very nice work. But yeah, it’s as simple as going to a secure building and somebody in front of you is walking in and you’re carrying a package that you’re about to drop, and it’s like, “Oh, sorry, can you hold that?” kind of thing; you get in without swiping your badge. It’s just like that. If you’re rating or ranking the wizards’ 2FA that is happening in this chapter based on whether it makes them feel safe, it scores higher, because they do it a couple of times. Like, “Ah, we’re all fine. Okay, great.” But whether it makes them safe? No, absolutely. Every new couple that arrives is a chance for a compromised person to be ushered into the spot where the prize pig, Harry, is.
Laura: Right, and so that’s the thing that really trips me up here, is like, okay, we can definitely criticize the way they decide to verify this, because it’s literally like, “Harry, what animal was in my office?”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Right.
Laura: And it’s like, “Okay, Grindylow.” And then, “What were the last words Albus Dumbledore spoke to the both of us?” Okay, those are pretty… in my mind, of course, I’m coming at this with a 2026 mentality. Those are pretty weak security answers and questions, if you ask me. But they don’t even apply it consistently to everybody. If they at least applied it consistently to everyone, I would allow it.
Andrew: Is it possible that they did apply it consistently to everyone? We just didn’t see it happen?
Micah: Off-page?
Andrew: Yeah, off-page.
[Micah laughs]
Laura: But it’s so dramatic every time it happens, I feel like.
Andrew: It is, but wouldn’t it also get a little redundant if we’re reading how many of these? Over a dozen?
Micah: Well, I think it’s only applicable to the people who didn’t take Polyjuice, because presumably those individuals would have turned back, right? So the Seven Potters… I can understand why you would be suspicious of Harry, because Harry didn’t take Polyjuice, but the other six did, so presumably, they are not the leak. Now, any of the adults, however, the six who return – because Moody doesn’t, RIP – they would be the ones in question. So Arthur, Kingsley, Lupin, Bill… I’m probably missing… Tonks.
Laura: Yeah, and some of them are already transformed back by the time they arrive too. They don’t all show up looking like Harry. The Polyjuice Potion is already worn off in some cases.
Micah: That’s my point, is that they wouldn’t… to me, though, you would be wasting your time trying to verify them because they are who they are, right? They didn’t double down on Polyjuice Potion and take two potions and turn twice over.
Laura: I don’t know. I mean, with the level of heightened paranoia at play… I mean, Voldemort can fly now. We’ve been introduced to new kinds of magic that we’ve never seen before.
Micah: It’s true.
Laura: It just seems like this is all kind of lackadaisical.
Micah: Yeah, I agree with you. I personally don’t like this as a means of verification; it does convey paranoia. The thing that’s always kind of baffled me is that they don’t consider the one person who doesn’t show up at the Burrow, and that’s Mundungus, and he – through no fault of his own, because we know he was Confunded – he was the one who betrayed them!
Laura: Yep.
Micah: But nobody’s mind goes there. It’s like, “Oh, Mundungus Disapparated and left Moody for Voldemort, but yeah, let’s get at everybody else who’s here at the Burrow right now. Let’s challenge each other.” But how about the guy who is not here?
Laura: Right. Well, and it’s so funny, too, because Bill is like, “Well, it couldn’t have been him, because the Polyjuice stuff was his idea, so why would he betray us?” And it’s like, “Well, why not?”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Go back to Gringotts.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Something that I thought of – and it doesn’t have to be exactly the same kind of magic – but for all of the protective enchantments that we know are set on the Burrow and all of these safe houses, couldn’t they have used some kind of magic similar in effect to the Thief’s Downfall at Gringotts to just make sure that if there is a disguise on somebody, that it is stripped when they enter the grounds of the home?
Eric: I like this a lot as a suggestion, and I wonder… because Bill works at Gringotts; so does Fleur. They could have maybe learned how to do something like this, but maybe the fact that they didn’t shows that there are some forms of magic that we will witness in these books that are exclusive to, or the purview of, goblins or other creatures. No human could do exactly the enchantment that the Thief’s Downfall does of wiping away every enchantment. Maybe that’s a specialty after centuries of honed magic from the goblins.
Andrew: Yeah. And we also tease the author for going back to Polyjuice Potion a little too often, so I think in moments like this, we do have to also appreciate her shaking it up with other ways of trying to fight back. So in that way… because it would get a little too easy if they get to just rely on the Thief’s Downfall for security purposes time and time again. You know what I mean? It’s nice that they have to shake it up, so we get new magic introduced.
Micah: I like the idea, though… just knowing how much of a Muggle lover Arthur is, I could see him building an outdoor shower, and that’s the Thief’s Downfall. You’d have to go in there.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah. “Go to the shower. Take a shower, Harry.”
Laura: Right. But he’s still super polite, and he’s like, “Hang on, we have to make sure you are who you say you are. Go take a shower.”
Eric: Oh my God.
Micah: Something that came to mind as we were discussing this was… I think back to how only the Death Eaters were able to enter the Astronomy Tower in Half-Blood Prince because they had the Dark Mark. What about something like that where only members of the Order could…? Because we see how they use it against Voldemort when Hagrid and Harry enter the space around the Tonks home. Doesn’t Harry even say…? He’s laying in bed and he’s thinking Voldemort is hovering up above the Tonks home somewhere. Couldn’t there be something specific about the Order that would allow them, only them in their truest form, to come through the protection that’s around the Burrow?
Laura: I guess so.
Micah: To me, that seems more safe than how they go about trying to figure out who betrayed them here.
Laura: Yeah. Well, and something like that would also be kind of an extension of how the protective charm works for Harry at Privet Drive. There’s a reason that Voldemort and the Death Eaters can’t show up there either. So it does make me wonder if there’s a way for them to reverse engineer some of this magic to make this a little more secure for themselves. But it wouldn’t be Harry Potter without a security nightmare here and there.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]
Andrew: Well, and that all said, I do like this two-factor authentication because – I keep going back to this; I’m starting to sound like a broken record – but these reminders of the series to date are really nice. So these questions that only the true people would know, being asked and answered, they’re touching to read. And clearly, if these questions are being asked of the other characters, these are meaningful moments in the question poser’s life as well. It’s all just putting a nice bow on this story.
Micah: Yeah, but if you’re an accomplished mind reader, you could figure it out anyway.
Laura: Yeah, for sure.
Micah: I think nothing is 100% foolproof. I thought some of the 2FA or 2WFA questions were pretty weak, to be honest with you.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Like, “What were the last words Albus Dumbledore spoke to the both of us?”
Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “I like Bombas for my socks. Very soft.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: I mean, “Harry is our best hope; trust him”? I’m paraphrasing.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I’m deeply touched by that. I love that because…
Micah: Yeah, but no Death Eater could guess that?
Andrew: Yes, exactly.
Eric: … Harry is not expecting it, and yeah, random praise from Dumbledore.
Micah: Grindylow is a level up.
Andrew: Could a Death Eater guess that, Micah? Eh, I don’t know.
Eric: “I knew Dumbledore. I guess his last words would be ‘Peace out!'”
[Ad break]
Laura: Well, the chapter ultimately ends, taking us to another security problem, but this time for Ollivander and for Harry, because it becomes clear that Harry is still getting to see into Voldemort’s mind, and because of this, he learns that Voldemort is confronting Ollivander about the fact that Lucius’s wand didn’t work for him this time. And Ollivander is of course insistent that he believed that a different wizard’s wand would work for Voldemort, and I think he’s probably being sincere about that. There maybe could be a conversation in here about do we think Ollivander knew that Harry’s wand might react the way that it did so did he ultimately know that he wasn’t giving Harry a death sentence in giving Voldemort this advice?
Micah: As a fellow Ravenclaw…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … I would like to think that Ollivander was well versed in what Voldemort’s – or in this case, Lucius’s – wand would or wouldn’t do against Harry. Although, he’s not aware of the Priori Incantatem, right? Unless Voldemort explained it to him.
Laura: Right.
Eric: He probably did at this point.
Micah: So yeah, I would like to think Ollivander was looking out for Harry. Would it be better to say then, maybe, that he didn’t give Voldemort the best possible option? Like he just kind of said, “Oh, grab somebody else’s wand and see how it goes.”
Andrew: Yeah. “I thought that was the best possible option.”
Odds & Ends
Laura: All right, well, we’re going to wrap up here with some odds and ends before we get into our Lynx Line. So a few things here: I just wanted to call out that Ron killed someone in this chapter.
Andrew: Heyyy.
Laura: Or in the last chapter; excuse me. Blink and you miss moment. Tonks specifically calls out in this chapter that Ron hit a Death Eater in the head with a Stunning Spell.
Andrew: What a badass!
Micah: You see, Harry?
Laura: So we know based on what Harry described, we know that person fell to their death. So Ron is a murderer now. Great.
Andrew: Wow.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Ron can see Thestrals.
Laura: Oh, yeah!
Andrew: I was just going to say, congratulations to Ron Weasley. [laughs]
Laura: No, that’s such a good point. Can Ron see Thestrals now? Interesting.
Andrew: If he saw what he was doing, then yeah, I think so.
Micah: And then this one kind of ties into what we were talking about with Ollivander, but I feel like the chapter overall leaves us with a lot of questions about the Order, especially with the paranoia – I feel like that’s the word that we’ve been using the most – and really where it stands, its ability to regroup. But at the same time, it also leaves us with questions about Voldemort and how he’s going to pursue Harry now, given that Lucius’s wand failed to work properly. There’s no clear backup plan, or no clear plan. It seems like Voldemort is kind of himself in a little bit of a precarious situation now. How does he move forward also, given that this plan massively failed?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: Let’s not forget, yeah, there’s a lot of chaos happening here amongst the Order, but ultimately, Voldemort’s plan was thwarted for now.
Laura: All right, well, that brings this chapter to a close.
Lynx Line
Laura: To round out the episode, we’re going to move on to our Lynx Line, which is a question that we ask every week that is answered by our supporters over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And based on this week’s discussion, we asked: Pick a character who wasn’t forced to identify themselves, and choose an identifying fact that would have proved their identity. Andrew, who did you pick?
Andrew: So I would pick Tonks, and the question would be, “Who was last off the Hogwarts Express at the start of last school year?”
Laura: Oh, man. That might be kind of hard to remember. Was it her?
Andrew: So in the movie, it’s Luna who finds Harry frozen…
Laura: Ah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew: … but in the book, it’s Tonks who actually finds Harry.
Laura: Tonks. That’s right.
Andrew: So it’s a little bit of vague wordplay, but I think Tonks would understand it.
Laura: Yeah, I think so too.
Andrew: Clearly, Laura would be identified as a Death Eater. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah, no, you would kill me immediately.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Oh, man. Wizarding 2FA gone wrong. I have one for Hermione: “What score did you receive on your Muggle Studies exam at the end of your third year?” And because no Death Eater would have ever guessed that she got a 320%.
Andrew: Very specific answer.
Micah: Wow.
Eric: But Hermione will never forget it.
Andrew: True.
Micah: I decided to go with Hagrid. “What did you give Harry for his 11th birthday?” A slightly squished birthday cake.
Andrew: Now, if Hagrid had said just birthday cake, would you have killed him?
Micah: No, I don’t think so.
Andrew: Okay, but a birthday cake is pretty obvious. [laughs]
Micah: I might have also accepted Hedwig.
Laura: Not a slightly squished Hedwig, though, right?
Micah: No, that was last chapter.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Yikes! Absolutely yikes.
Laura: And then I went with Ron. So my question to him would be, “What did you inadvertently make yourself puke up in your second year when your wand backfired on you when you were trying to curse Malfoy?” The answer, of course, would be slugs.
Andrew: Good times, good times. All right, over on Patreon, Broc said,
“Assuming they would need to be answering to Harry, I’m going to go with Fred or George. The question I’d ask is, ‘What’s the incantation to erase the Marauder’s Map?'”
Eric and Laura: Love that.
Eric: That’s a good one.
Micah: It is a good one.
Eric: Emily says, “Harry to McGonagall: ‘What did you say to me after I got detention from Umbridge?'” And the answer, of course, is, “Have a biscuit, Potter.”
Andrew: [laughs] This one wins.
Eric: Yeah. Emily says, “I don’t think an impersonator would ever guess this reaction.” That makes it good.
Andrew: And then McGonagall and Harry would high five. “Yeah, that was a good one! Remember that?”
Eric: Aw, yeah.
Micah: Rachel says for Professor Sprout, “What protection did you place for the Sorcerer’s Stone? Devil’s Snare.”
Andrew: Okay.
Laura: Yeah, very good. Most people wouldn’t know that. Matthew says,
“What’s the maiden name of the woman you secretly pined for your whole life when you should have just gotten a freaking girlfriend already?”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Was this for Snape?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: I think so.
Eric: Or for Dumbledore. Could be either.
Andrew: Matthew didn’t specify, but I guess this was a quiz for us too. Let’s go with Snape.
Laura: Yeah, I’m assuming Snape.
Andrew: [laughs] Zachary said, “Neville to his grandmother: ‘What type of gift does my mother repeatedly give me?'” Oh, the crumpled gum wrapper.
Eric: Carlee says, “Harry could ask Mundungus, ‘What made me want to kill you last year?'”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: And Dung would be like, “Where do I start?” But the answer, of course, is that he stole from Sirius’s house.
Andrew: Oh, that’s funny. Y’all are so creative. Thank you for submitting answers at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and if you’re not a patron, please join us there. We ask a new question for each episode. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can send us an email or send a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via the Spotify comments or YouTube comments, or slide into our social media DMs.
Quizzitch
Andrew: Before we wrap up, it’s time for the answer to this week’s Quizzitch question.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: And that question, again, was: How late is Kingsley Shacklebolt for his meeting at Downing Street? The correct answer is an hour.
Andrew: Ah.
Eric: He’s an hour late, he says, as he hurries off. We also accepted the answer two half hours, which for some reason were submitted by Forty on the Discord.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: I guess technically that’s also correct?
Andrew: Troll. That would be right.
Micah: I guess.
Andrew: I answered four 15 minutes.
Laura: Four quarter hours? [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, Andrew wins, and so does Elizabeth and HallowWolf and Kyle, Stray Kneazle. So thank you all to Quizzitch. We’re getting the hang of this posting in the thread and the Discord live and the other thing like that, so I hope you had fun playing along at home.
Andrew: Next week, we’ll discuss Chapter 6 of Deathly Hallows, “The Ghoul in Pajamas.” Don’t forget to visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everyone!
Laura and Micah: Bye.