Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #739, Subtle As A Freight Train (HBP Chapter 16, ‘A Very Frosty Christmas’)
Cold Open
Martha: Did Ron even get something for Lavender? That’s what’s really heartbreaking here.
Laura: My headcanon is that he did not.
Andrew: He says in the chapter, “We don’t do much talking; we just do snogging.” That’s his gift to Lavender. It’s more kissing.
Eric: His presence is enough of a present for her, okay?
Martha: Yeah, he probably gave her a paper coupon for a five-minute make-out session.
[Alice and Andrew laugh]
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app and you will never miss an episode. And this week, bundle up for some social iciness, because we’re discussing Chapter 16 of Half-Blood Prince, “A Very Frosty Christmas.” And this week we have two guests joining us, Martha and Alice, from the Harry Potter podcast “The Real Weird Sisters.” Hi to both of you.
Alice Asleson: Hi, I’m Alice. [at the same time as Martha]
Martha Krebill: Hi, I’m Martha. [at the same time as Alice]
Andrew: [laughs] Perfect.
Alice: And I’m Alice. We’ll just talk at the same time.
[Everyone laughs]
Martha: That’s how we do it on our podcast; we talk at the exact same time. Thank you guys so much for having us.
Eric: Yeah, you guys are sisters in real life, right?
Alice and Martha: We are.
Martha: If I took my glasses off, you’d be able to tell better.
Alice: Yeah, we’re real, and we’re weird, and we’re also real weird.
Andrew: Okay.
Martha: We’re also real weird sisters.
Alice: Yes.
Eric: Wow.
Andrew: How long have you two been doing the Real Weird Sisters podcast?
Alice: So we started the podcast almost ten years ago, 2016. It was April, so we’re almost at our ten-year anniversary now.
Eric: Wow!
Andrew: Oh, congrats!
Laura: Congrats.
Andrew: That’s exciting.
Alice: Thanks. Yeah, we’re not quite to the level of MuggleCast, but we’re getting there.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Ah, you’ll get there. You’ll get there.
[Alice and Martha laugh]
Andrew: But you two do something that maybe we’re going to have to do one day…
Eric: Oh my God.
Andrew: … you go page by page through the Harry Potter books? Tell us about that.
Laura: Whoa.
Martha: That’s what we’re doing now. We started out as a book club, and of course, that took us four years to get through the 200 chapters, and then we kind of figured out what to do next. We started doing character studies for a while. We did take fives, which is where we talk about the movies five minutes at a time. And then now we’ve branched out even more; we’re doing one page at a time, and the way that we do that is we roll the dice for what book we’re going to do. We have a D7… well, actually, I roll a D8, and if I get eight, then we reroll.
[Eric laughs]
Martha: And then we roll the rest of the dice to see what the digits are for the page number that we’re going to discuss the next week, and it’s very goofy, but it’s very fun.
Andrew: That is a really cool idea.
Laura: That is fun.
Andrew: That’s such a cool idea. Yeah, so it’s random. It’s random each time.
Alice: It is pretty random, yeah.
Martha: Somehow we’ve gotten a lot of threes. I don’t know why, but…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: There’s always that one number that just crops up more often when rolling die.
Martha: Exactly.
Andrew: And I’ve listened to a couple episodes of your show, and I’ve heard some impressions of the characters, so I invite you to do those impressions on this podcast as well. We love impressions here. Which of you did McGonagall?
Alice: Martha does all the character voices, and I only do Jim Dale as the narrator on the page.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Eric: Okay, this is going to be great.
Alice: Martha is pretty good at her characters, and I don’t even really attempt them.
Andrew: Okay, okay.
Martha: Alice does do a pretty good Fleur, and she’s in this chapter, so I think that might have to come out at some point.
Eric: Oooh.
[Alice and Andrew laugh]
Andrew: Alice and Martha actually also used to be MuggleCast listeners, too, right? Alice, you were saying you listened starting back in 2005?
Alice: Yeah, I was a big fan when I was in high school, and I would listen religiously every week. I’d put it on my desktop computer and I’d study/do my homework while I was listening. I don’t think I was actually doing a lot of studying. But yeah, I was a huge fan, and that was way before people knew what podcasts were. And especially growing up in Montana, I was probably the only person in Montana listening to podcasts.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Alice: So it was so exciting when we heard from you guys, and we’re really excited to be on the show.
Andrew: Aww. Well, I’m glad you both are excited to come on. You both were “studying” and listening, and we were “studying” and recording, or at least I was fake studying.
Laura: Yep, same.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Well, listeners, if you love MuggleCast as much as Ron and Lavender love PDA, we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and we’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout with the MuggleCasters, and lots more. We do have a new bonus MuggleCast episode coming this week, right, Eric?
Eric: That’s right, a nod towards Valentine’s Day. We recently were discussing the topic, or saying, “Hey, we should talk about our personal romantic history in terms of Hogwarts House and which Houses we find are most romantically compatible among people that we ourselves have dated.” So a little autobiographical discussion about how dating somebody translates well or less well depending on what Hogwarts House they are. So it’s going to be a great bonus. A lot of fun over there on Patreon.
Andrew: Awesome. Well, there are some other great ways to support us, to help us run this independent podcast. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and more.
Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve
Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. We are discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 16, “A Very Frosty Christmas.”
Eric: Andrew, I’m so glad you could join us on this one, because the last time we talked about this chapter, you could not be found. It was MuggleCast 404, titled “Furry Little Problems,” and it aired on February 4, 2019. Here’s a clip from our last discussion on this chapter.
Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 404.
[Sound of memory uncorking]
[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]
Micah: You’re led to believe initially that Scrimgeour is this nice dude who convinced his colleague to come home for the holidays and see his family and make amends, but then later learn that he’s just there to talk to Harry.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: He’s as subtle as a freight train here.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: “We were just in the area!”
Laura: “Oh, hey, young man! You with the lightning bolt scar and the green eyes! Please come help me find the garden.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
[Sound of exiting Pensieve]
Dumbledore: This memory is everything.
Eric: So Laura compares Rufus Scrimgeour’s actions to being as subtle as a freight train, a phrase that she, seven years later while developing this discussion, uses again. Just a very specific, hilarious phrase I’d never heard of before.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: That’s so funny. Wow, I can’t believe that stuck with me after all this time.
Eric: It’s true.
Martha: Do you use that phrase a lot in your life?
[Eric laughs]
Laura: No, I mean, not unless it’s warranted.
Martha: Not unless it’s about Rufus Scrimgeour?
Andrew: For this chapter, yeah.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, hey, if somebody is being as subtle as a freight train, I guess I will call them that.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: But yeah, no, that’s funny.
Martha: It does describe it accurately.
Laura: It really does!
Martha: It’s a very apt metaphor, or I guess a simile.
Laura: Well, that’s a really fun way to get back into this chapter.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Laura: So of course, we are opening up at the Burrow right ahead of Christmas. Harry and Ron are stuck peeling sprouts by hand, which is very important setup for the interaction that’s going to happen here with Fred and George. And while they’re doing this, Harry is filling Ron in on what he overheard between Snape and Draco outside of Slughorn’s party the other night, and Ron kind of answers Harry or reacts to him in somewhat of a Hermione-ish way, by giving the reasonable answer of, “Don’t you think that it’s possible that Snape was just trying to figure out what he’s up to, and that’s why he was offering to help him?” And I was wondering if, as readers, we remember how we felt towards Draco when reading this for the first time. Were we in Harry’s shoes here in terms of how we felt about Draco, or did we think there was maybe something more to the story? I know for me, noting that Draco had been noted to be missing Quidditch, missing classes, that he was looking thin and ill, that was an indicator to me at the time that things were not as straightforward as maybe Harry was interpreting them.
Eric: Yeah, it’s just so wild. Nothing in Book 6 frustrates me as much as literally anything in Book 5, but because we understood in Chapter 2 of this book that Draco is in fact a Death Eater, and Snape is in fact trying to help him, the discussion that they had after Slughorn’s party last chapter reads like not just confirmation, but, “Oh, finally the plot is moving forward,” and when Harry is chatting with Ron about it, and Ron is just like, “Ehh,” being all Hermione-ish, I was just shocked and probably a little put out, of “Oh, I guess the plot is not moving forward. They’re going to continue to not believe Harry.” And it’s almost like a sick game of how long can Harry go without being believed about something that has already been confirmed to the reader, but not to any of the characters? And so I don’t know. It’s fun to… or maybe not fun to be teased so long, and because you just want to hope that Ron and Hermione will get back together and will just be Harry’s friend about Draco, and it just doesn’t happen yet.
Andrew and Martha: Yeah.
Martha: It’s such an interesting setup in this book. It’s so different from the other books in that we have, first of all, all of Harry’s theories about Snape and Malfoy are finally actually accurate. And then second of all, like you said, having the foreshadowing or whatever you want to call it of “Spinner’s End”; we as the reader are in the know for once. And yeah, I don’t remember feeling frustrated, necessarily, because I think… well, as our listeners are aware, I started this book having already been spoiled that Snape was going to kill Dumbledore at the end by our mean cousin.
Laura: [gasps] No!
Eric: Wait, were you in line at that release party where somebody drove by and shouted out? Was that you? Was that you guys?
Andrew: Was that in Montana?
Martha: [laughs] No, it was my cousin a week after the book had come out, and he wanted to tell me, in a very snotty way, “You know that Snape is going to kill Dumbledore, right?”
Laura: Oh, man.
Martha: And I was like, “No, I did not know that.” [laughs]
Eric: Well, I hope that cousin has achieved nothing but success in life. I hope they’re doing well right now.
[Everyone laughs]
Martha: You two would get along. Let’s just… that’s a similar response that he would have to the situation.
Eric: Oh, okay.
Martha: I feel like he would really appreciate that.
Eric: I let the badger claws out a little bit.
Martha: [laughs] No, but I just think that part of what makes this book so unique and special is how different the storytelling is when it comes to the Snape and Malfoy stuff.
Alice: Well, I think, like Eric, I definitely was really frustrated. I was always really team Harry, believed him 100%, and had the same interpretations on things, and so it was just really super frustrating to see especially Ron and Hermione, who usually would agree with him. I’m like, “Why are you sticking up for Malfoy?” And so that was really frustrating. And I mean, yes, we are let in on the plot, like Martha said, but it’s also obviously only half of what’s really going on, so we’re actually not let in on the plot. So it is just a very interesting way that it’s all set up. But I was very team Harry from when I first read it.
Laura: Yeah. It is so funny that you put it that way, because in that way, both Harry and the reader are kind of being played with in the same way by Dumbledore really orchestrating all of this so that we’re only getting certain kinds of information. So actually, with that in mind, I can definitely see where the frustration came from for you, Alice, as well as Eric. Back to this kitchen scene, Harry and Ron are soon interrupted by Fred and George, who do not miss the opportunity to tease the two of them about having to do this peeling task by hand, and they can’t do magic. And something I wanted to talk about – because it kind of surprised me – George accidentally bumps into Ron, causing him to cut his finger with the knife that he’s using to peel sprouts. Now remind me: When we had our episode about Fred and George, didn’t we determine that Fred was the mean twin?
Eric: Yeah, yeah. And Alice and Martha, you guys would love this: Our 508th episode is “How to Tell Fred and George Weasley Apart,” and it turns out there’s actually a very strict rule that is evenly applied across nearly every interaction. This interaction is an outlier. Fred is usually the instigator. Whenever there’s a series of joke-telling and somebody goes too far, it’s always Fred. In this chapter, George is the one that bumps into Ron and causes him to cut himself, so I guess maybe we have to revisit the whole thought process around Fred and George.
Andrew: No, I don’t think we need to, because they’re brothers. They’re still going to have some overlap. They’re twins who like to mess with people.
Martha: Yeah, but did George really make Ron do this? When I read this in the outline – this was before I had read the chapter again – and I was like, “I don’t remember that,” and I’m looking at it and Ron says, “You made me do that!” And George put his feet up on the table, but is it really George’s intention? I don’t know. I don’t quite buy that George meant to do it.
Laura: Doesn’t he say “Whoops-a-daisy” or something like that?
[Eric laughs]
Martha: Yeah, because I think that’s when he sees Ron do it. I mean, Ron throws a knife at him a few minutes later, so I don’t know if it’s meanness as much as it is just the brothers being the brothers. Can I just ask, though… sprouts? What are the sprouts?
Andrew: Are they just sprouts that you put on a sandwich?
Eric: She’s the Head of Hufflepuff House.
[Laura laughs]
Martha: To peel them… what do you peel? I’ve always… I’ve never known in this scene.
Andrew: Peeled sprouts.
Alice: I for some reason pictured it more like potatoes, but that doesn’t really make sense.
Martha: That’s what I always picture with peeling, yeah.
Eric: I think you have to get them…
Andrew: Five Americans try to figure out what this means.
[Laura laughs]
Alice: I know. I was like, “Maybe this is a Britishism.”
Andrew: It probably is.
Eric: You probably have to get them out of their pod?
Laura: I think there are a few in this chapter. There’s some bush that gets named a couple of times.
Martha: And the satsuma.
Alice: The satsuma, yeah.
Laura: I wouldn’t be able to… there’s another one that was really long, though, and I was like, “I don’t even know how to say that.”
Martha: Something that they walk by, I think.
Eric: We’ll have to consult the Harry Potter Cookbook for recipes derived strictly from this chapter.
Martha: Was it the rhododendron?
Laura: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: I’m not sure, but I’m inclined to believe that George did this on purpose, because it’s just typical taunting of your younger brother, I think. That said, I think it was really mean you’re making your brother bleed! That’s bad! The only thing that could sort of excuse it, to me, is that Fred and George figure that they can easily heal it; they’ll know how to heal it back up. So it’s almost like no real harm, no real foul. But still.
Eric: Again, it’s like, “Why?” Quidditch goes real hard because of all the injuries, but they’re at a magic school, and a lot of these injuries can be mended with a wave of a wand. So maybe that’s it. I mean, I don’t have a brother, so I can’t say I’ve ever made him bleed, but Andrew…
Martha: How did he do it?
Alice: Well, I was going to say it’s pretty interesting that it’s right following up on this other story about them as children, and how they kind of pushed it too far that time too. They almost… I mean, I don’t know that it was really going to actually work for these two little kids to make an Unbreakable Vow, but that Mr. Weasley had to intervene before they potentially set Ron up to die.
Andrew: That was crazy.
[Andrew and Martha laugh]
Eric: That’s a great point.
Andrew: There should be a rule in the wizarding world where you have to be 16 or older to be able to commit to an Unbreakable Vow.
Alice: I mean, it seems like it’s pretty powerful…
Martha: Yeah, or saying yes to it.
Alice and Andrew: Yeah.
Alice: It seems like it’s pretty powerful magic that I doubt that little kids could do, but I don’t know.
Laura: Yeah. So as this scene goes on, Fred and George are also taunting Ron about Lavender, so they move on to taunting him about, “What could possibly be wrong with this girl if she’s involved… tied up with you?” And I know this may be a little bit of a crackpot theory observation, but Ron does throw the knife at Fred, and which of the twins dies in the next book?
Eric: Fred.
Andrew: Oooh!
Martha: Wow.
Laura: Poor Fred.
Andrew: I like this theory.
Eric: A marked man ever since he insulted Lav-Lav.
Martha: Chekhov’s knife.
[Laura laughs]
Martha: Yeah, that’s a really good point.
Andrew: That’s a good catch, Laura.
Martha: But Fred did turn it into a paper airplane with his wand.
Laura: He did, yeah.
Eric: That’s some quick thinking.
Laura: Yeah, no, definitely. And yeah, it’s very funny, because again, the brothers, they could have definitely very easily helped Harry and Ron with this task by using magic to do it, but they don’t want to. They clearly have other plans, going into town to meet up with a pretty girl.
Martha: Oh, it sounds like amazing plans. Oh, that will be fun.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Live on our Discord real quick, we have had some input about sprouts. Brussels sprouts. I didn’t even think about this. Brussels sprouts are sizable…
Alice: I wondered about that, yeah.
Eric: This whole time I’m picturing tiny little sprouts, and how you do it, but Brussels sprouts are the size of a tiny apple.
Alice: Yeah, and you have to kind of peel those, don’t you?
Laura: I don’t think I’ve ever peeled a Brussels sprout.
Eric: You can boil ’em…
Martha: I usually cut them in half and then cut the end off.
Alice: And sometimes the outer leaves are kind of folding away.
Martha: But they’ll just fall off if you’re cutting them.
Alice: Yeah, I don’t know. I’m reaching.
Andrew: Listeners, let us know.
Martha: I wondered about Brussels sprouts, too, so I’m glad somebody brought that up. The sprout mountain. I do like that visual, even though I don’t know what I’m picturing, because I don’t know what the sprouts are.
[Alice and Martha laugh]
Laura: Well, Remus and Fleur have also joined the Weasleys for Christmas, and the Fleur and Mrs. Weasley passive aggression continues throughout this chapter. I know we’ve talked quite a bit about this dynamic, not just with regards to Fleur and Mrs. Weasley, but we’ve also talked about in the past like when Mrs. Weasley was being shady towards Hermione, and how, unfortunately, in some of these female characters, we continue to see this trend towards some characters wanting to tear each other down. And we definitely see both Fleur and Mrs. Weasley trying to get under each other’s skin in this chapter. So I don’t know if anyone had any other observations on that front that we haven’t already touched on the show before.
Eric: It’s just sad to see Fleur’s foreignness to be used to sort of discredit her or make it like she has nothing worthwhile to say. This girl was a champion of the school at which she went to compete in the Triwizard Cup two years ago, and I just think that it’s a shame that her existence in this book is as a punchline, but I’m grateful for the future redemption that’s coming to Fleur and the resolution of hers and Mrs. Weasley’s relationship. But right now, it’s uncomfortable to read how uncomfortable they both are. And Mrs. Weasley didn’t knit Fleur a sweater; she knitted everyone else a sweater. That is a particular low. I mean, this is the fiancée of your oldest son. You’re going to pull that crap?
Alice: The thing that kind of… the more that Martha and I look back at the series now, sometimes… definitely, as a teenager, I would idolize the author, and this is a scene where I’m starting to see now, reading through a new lens, maybe that she’s putting some sexist stereotypes, implying that a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law just always are going to be butting heads. And I mean, yes, that can happen, but it kind of… sometimes it’s like, “Well, that was maybe a little bit lazy to have that as a plot in there.”
Laura: Yeah. Well, I think it’s very uncharacteristic of Mrs. Weasley, when you consider the way she’s portrayed the other 95% of the time in the series.
[Andrew laughs]
Alice: Yeah, that’s the thing. She’s generally so hospitable, welcoming…
Laura: Right.
Alice: … and then just to see this idea that she’s really catty and undercutting other women doesn’t necessarily fit with the rest of her personality.
Andrew: And just not a good example to lead by. You’ve got to be a better role model in situations like this. Family sometimes doesn’t get along.
Eric: And don’t turn up the radio. Don’t just blare the radio. That’s rude.
Martha: So this is one of the Fleur/Mrs. Weasley chapters where I feel like Fleur sort of asks for it. Her imitating Mrs. Weasley’s favorite singer is kind of a slap in the face to Mrs. Weasley, her host. But again, at the same time, when we look back how she’s been treated in the past by Mrs. Weasley, we know why probably Fleur is trying to, I don’t know, stand up for herself in a way, or maybe she’s reached a point where she doesn’t try with Mrs. Weasley anymore. So I get it, but I do think that as far as Fleur and Mrs. Weasley interactions, this is a chapter where we do see Fleur being a little bit maybe catty back. Like I said, the imitation of Celestina Warbeck is pretty rude, I guess. [laughs]
Laura: She’s over it.
Eric: “Who is zis awful woman?” Yeah, I think that’s exactly what it is. This is day 100 or so of Fleur and Mrs. Weasley being under one roof, and so we got a reprieve of it, because we were at Hogwarts with the trio, but they have not gotten a reprieve from each other.
Andrew: That’s a good point.
Eric: And Bill, wherever he may be, has not stepped in and said, “Okay, we’re going to take a break. We’re going to move somewhere else a little bit, into a cottage somewhere.” Whatever is happening is ultimately bigger than either Mrs. Weasley or Fleur about all of this.
Martha: Imagine if they had been quarantined together.
[Andrew and Martha laugh]
Eric: Oh my God, they wouldn’t have survived.
Martha: No, I don’t think so.
Laura: No.
Eric: There would be so few sweaters in one corner of the room.
[Martha laughs]
Alice: It is a good point, though, that Bill could have at some point maybe defended his fiancée a little bit, or said to his mom, “Come on, can you please not?” I mean, maybe he did off the page somewhere, but not where we ever get to be privy to that.
Eric: And if Fleur is being intentionally catty, she should just go wear Bill’s sweater around the house. That’ll show Mrs. Weasley.
[Andrew and Martha laugh]
Laura: She probably doesn’t want to wear a sweater. I found myself thinking that too.
Martha: Yeah, I thought that as well.
Laura: Is it possible that Mrs. Weasley did make her a sweater begrudgingly, but then Fleur was like, “Mm, no thank you”?
Eric: “Zis is eetchy on my skin.”
Martha: It does say, “on whom, it appeared, Mrs. Weasley had not wanted to waste one.”
Eric: Oh, “appeared.”
Martha: But we don’t have the opening of the presents where everybody opens theirs; it just says they’re all wearing theirs except Fleur. So maybe that’s Harry’s interpretation.
Alice: Yeah, and once again, we’re getting it from Harry’s perspective, and as we see in this chapter, he does not interpret everything totally accurately as to what’s going on, so that’s definitely possible.
Laura: That is a great observation.
Eric: Yeah, always very important.
Laura: Well, Harry does finally get a chance to talk to Remus on Christmas Eve as well, and we get a little bit of Remus’s backstory here. Well, we get his current story about what he’s doing now, but then we also get some backstory about how he became a werewolf. So he’s gone underground to live amongst the werewolves to try and de-influence their affiliation with Voldemort…
Andrew: Ooh, a de-influencer.
Laura: Yeah, he’s the original de-influencer.
Eric: [laughs] The OG.
Andrew: Oh, cool.
Eric: Smash that like button.
Andrew: Don’t smash it.
Laura: He shows up and he’s like, “What’s up, chat? Smash that like button; I’m going to de-influence you on Voldemort.”
[Alice and Martha laugh]
Laura: Remus does also name drop Fenrir Greyback as the ringleader of much of the effort to get the werewolves to align with Voldemort, and he talks about how Greyback has made it his life’s mission to attack as many people as possible to turn them into werewolves, and that in particular he likes to attack children, because he likes to “get them young.” He also goes on to reveal that Greyback was in fact the werewolf who turned him when he was a child.
Eric: Yeah, this is just incredibly rough, to see that there is a character who is every bit as disturbed and evil as how people would make all werewolves out to be. Everything people are saying about werewolves out there that makes Remus Lupin teaching at Hogwarts completely inappropriate are all the things that seem to be personified or embodied by just this one, this leader, Greyback, who’s attempting to sway other werewolves and show them that they don’t need wizards and they don’t need to cohabitate, and it’s just… I mean, he’s a boogeyman, and he’s also harboring some deep… he’s causing a lot of harm out there. And this is actually one of the writings, either through Pottermore or extended canon, where you learn a little bit about Lyle Lupin – he’s named – Lupin’s dad, and the specific political pressure he was under, and essentially it had to do with rights that werewolves were going to be gaining. That’s why Remus was attacked. And it’s just an interesting kind of thought, but ultimately I’m just terrified of Fenrir Greyback. I want to lock the door and then double lock it, just thinking about this type of character. It’s a very dark thing to read about in this book.
Andrew: Well, and I think we’ve compared becoming a werewolf with the AIDS outbreak, and I think it would be interesting to explore this backstory that you’re describing, Eric, that was added on Pottermore or wherever else, in the TV show. Because often in media, you see these comparisons, these symbolic comparisons of, let’s say, the wizarding world versus the Muggle world, and I think that would be an interesting avenue to explore for them, with all the extra time they’re going to have in this TV show.
Eric: Yeah, do more flashbacks. Absolutely.
Laura: They should.
Eric: It doesn’t just need to be that one little two-minute scene of Voldemort showing up at the Potters’ doorstep in Godric’s Hollow. We can have flashbacks three times a season, and it would be warranted.
Laura: Yeah. Martha and Alice, I’m really curious to hear y’all’s thoughts around some of the revelation here behind what Remus is doing, but also his background and getting turned in the first place.
Martha: I think it’s one of those situations with the author where she introduces something in such a slight way that’s way bigger than the way she’s introducing it, and we don’t get enough to really see what it is. We get this introduction of Greyback positioning himself near his victims and wanting to get them young, but then apparently after Remus was bitten, he didn’t learn his biter’s identity for years afterwards. So it’s kind of this… it doesn’t quite… I feel like there’s so many unanswered questions with it that could be answered, and I don’t know what I want as far as answers goes. But it’s such a dark thing that’s opened up here, and the concept of Greyback as a character, he’s just pure evil and so scary, and then it’s just barely touched on.
Laura: What were you going to say, Alice?
Alice: Yeah, for sure. And I think the other thing… I liked Eric’s point about how Greyback is kind of the stereotypical werewolf, and it is interesting to see that, where we have this minority group in the books of the werewolves, and how it’s like there’s this one who does embody all those negative traits, and how frustrating that would be for somebody like Lupin, let alone for that to be the person who turned him into a werewolf. Yeah, that would just be… it’s like he’s embodying everything that Lupin is against, and that’s who got him. That’s just horrible for him.
Eric: Yeah, that really sets up a personal conflict between the two men now, the two grown werewolf men. I’d be interested in seeing if they face off. I’ve totally forgotten if they have any interactions in the final battle. We know that Greyback eventually gets Lavender.
Laura: Right.
Andrew: Allegedly.
Martha: I don’t think that there is any.
Alice: I don’t think so either, but…
Martha: I really don’t think there is any kind of confrontation between the two of them.
Eric: There should have been, right? They’re pretty much…
Alice: It seems like a missed opportunity, yeah.
Eric: They’re both in the same place.
Laura: Rematch.
Alice: It would have been nice for Lupin to be able to finish him off or something.
Martha: Rematch Lupin.
Laura: Definitely. Yeah, there’s an aspect… and I feel like we could have a whole episode discussing Greyback and digging into his philosophies and ideologies and how they inform what he does, but there is a really dark side to this particular narrative that I don’t think gets explicitly covered in the movies the way it does in the books, where he’s targeting children. And that, in and of itself, if you’re doing a critical reading of the stories and the kind of subtext that you could read into something like that, is an example of some of the darker themes in this story that don’t really get touched on in the movies because they were trying to… they’re kids movies, right? But these stories get more and more adult as the characters grow up.
Andrew: And when you’re a younger reader, the first time you’re reading these things, they go right over your head. We’ve talked about the love potion example again, and then now you look what’s going on in the news as it pertains, in particular, to Jeffrey Epstein, and you start drawing those kind of comparisons here, too, with attacking children.
Laura: Exactly.
Eric: Just so many victims that…
Andrew: You can see why this is a very frosty Christmas.
Martha: [laughs] The layer, too, of Voldemort threatening to unleash him on Death Eaters’ kids, and that’s how Death Eater… or not Death Eaters, but people he’s trying to convert to Death Eater side.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: Definitely the intimidation, having him as a weapon, and knowing that Draco even… either a movie-ism or not, Draco name drops him as well to get Borgin to step in line.
Alice: Yeah, that’s another interesting case of them using people in a way that’s not… I don’t know. It’s not like Voldemort cares about Greyback, but he’s like, “I’m going to weaponize you and turn you into this thing I can use.” It’s just all so disturbing.
Martha: Yeah, I remember the scene in Malfoy Manor in the seventh book, always feeling a tiny bit of pity for Greyback when there’s the moment where nobody wants to be near him. And I hate Greyback, he’s awful, and like I said, one of the most purely evil characters in the series, but there is that moment where it’s like even the people that he’s aligned with really don’t… aren’t actually his real allies. They’re disgusted by him.
Laura: Right, they’re just using him.
Eric: Yep.
Laura: Well, Harry is also still trying to get to the bottom of the identity of the Half-Blood Prince, so he brings this up to Remus, and he talks about Levicorpus, and specifically tries to make the connection of, “Well, I have this textbook, and there are all these notes in the margins, and I remember seeing in the Pensieve that my dad did that to Snape, so…” and Remus is really quick to be like, “First of all, your dad was a pure-blood, and he never once asked any of us to call him a Prince.”
Andrew: [laughs] “And there are no princes in the wizarding world.”
Eric: I think Remus is covering. I think James did ask specifically for that. I think Remus is just doing the good friend thing.
Martha: [laughs] And he’s like, “Is this a name you’re thinking of going by yourself?”
[Alice and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, that was really funny.
Laura: “The Chosen One’s not good enough for you?”
Eric: Oh my God.
Andrew: The Chosen Prince. He’s workshopping a new version. The Chosen Prince.
Martha: [laughs] Who Lived.
Andrew: But another line from Lupin that stuck out to me is when Lupin was talking to Harry about Snape; he said, “You are determined to hate him,” him being Snape. And that line jumped out to me, because not only is Harry trying to talk to Arthur and Remus about Draco, but he’s also talking to them about Snape. And has Harry considered even once yet that this book of his that’s been helping him in Potions could have been Snape’s?
Laura: No.
Andrew: Like Lupin said, he’s so determined to hate him, that thought doesn’t even cross his mind. How could this guy, this idiot who really knows his Potions, have possibly wrote all this brilliance in this book? So it’s just interesting to me how his hate clouds his judgment.
Alice: It’s sort of a good cover for why Harry never thinks of Snape, because I feel like we want it to come as a total shock at the end that it is Snape, so if Harry had floated that idea in his mind, it wouldn’t have been a shock for us. But I think you’re right; it’s a natural way of saying this is why Harry would never consider it, because he’s so far out of anyone Harry would respect. He would never think – Harry – that he could have done something that he would like.
Martha: And to be fair, too, as a teacher, it’s not like Snape has really shown his Potions prowess to Harry.
Andrew: True.
Martha: I don’t think that Harry thinks of him as being that great at Potions, because he’s not that great at teaching. So I don’t know if Harry really has all that… I mean, obviously has very little respect for Snape period, but when it comes to Snape as a Potions Master, I don’t really know if Harry thinks of him as being so good at Potions.
Alice: Yeah, it was almost like a surprise when we found out he was the Prince, because it was like, “Oh, yeah, he does like Potions.”
[Eric laughs]
Alice: Because it’s always like, “We know he’s really into the Dark Arts.”
Laura: Right.
Martha: And we know that he really… that’s his second choice subject.
Eric: Well, and… yeah, no, it’s a good point about all the misdirection that’s been put in the books. There are these tiny moments where whenever Harry, Ron, and Hermione screw up a potion, he knows exactly what step they failed at and exactly what ingredient they…
Martha: Yeah, that’s true.
Eric: And that’s cool as hell that he’s that into it, but it’s so subtle. And something I want to really just state here is how much I appreciate Lupin saying, “Harry, you’re prejudiced. This is something that you are predisposed to thinking because you’ve inherited a prejudice.” Lupin is the only one that can tell Harry this, that can talk to Harry like this, I think. He’s singular in that sort of friendship and mentorship angle that they’ve got together, and it is so crucial to hear that sort of thing from a friend, right? “Oh, you’re prejudiced.” Now, we understand Snape and Harry have very good reason to dislike each other – even Remus, in this chapter, says so – but the way in which you’re jumping to conclusions… or it’s just important for friends always to call out what they think might be the beginnings of something that isn’t completely above board.
Martha: I think you’re right that Lupin is the only person that could say something like this to Harry, but at the same time, I don’t know that Harry really listens to him.
Eric: Right. You can only do so much. You can point out…
Martha: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true. But also, I mean, the prejudice that Harry has towards Snape does not just come inherited from his father. Snape has treated him terribly.
Andrew: Yes.
Laura: Exactly.
Alice: Well, Martha and I always… we love/hate this scene. We always quote the line about, “I neither like nor dislike Severus.”
Eric: Augh!
Alice: And it’s just kind of… it’s always like, “Okay, Lupin.”
Martha: And “We shall never be bosom friends.”
[Andrew and Martha laugh]
Eric: Okay, wet blanket Remus Lupin.
Alice: Yeah, exactly. It’s like, “Oh my gosh.” But you have to really… I mean, wow, he must do a lot of meditation or therapy or something to come to that point…
Eric: Oh my God, yeah.
Alice: … because I just don’t understand how he just is so zen about the whole thing. It’s almost ridiculous.
Martha: It’s like a serenity prayer or something.
Andrew: Well, but he’s an adult. He’s over it. He’s not wanting to roll around in this drama anymore.
Alice: That’s true.
Laura: Well, and he also points out that Snape was the one who was brewing the Wolfsbane Potion for him the entire year in Book 3, and that had he wanted to screw with Lupin, he totally could have.
Alice: No, I admire that about Lupin.
Eric: So Lupin is… he says, “Harry, I’m contractually bound to not be mad at Snape anymore because of all the times he made the potion for me.”
Martha: “And he didn’t kill me. He could have.”
Andrew: Even though it probably frustrates Harry to hear what Lupin has to say, Harry does have to remember here that Lupin has decades on him, a couple of decades on him, when it comes to his relationships and knowing Dumbledore and Snape. So what he says about Dumbledore and Snape, in my opinion, should close the book on this for Harry. “You’ve got to trust Dumbledore. I know him. I know his relationship with Snape. Just go with it. I know it’s hard.” But I just don’t know how you argue with somebody who’s known these people for many, many years more than you have.
Alice: Well, he’s a teenage boy, so that comes naturally.
Martha: I was going to say.
Andrew: There’s that.
Eric: That’s how you argue. That’s how you keep getting back up again. You have the losing hand; you keep fighting anyway. I really liked what Martha was pointing out, as far as these aren’t the only reasons Harry has a prejudice against Snape. Actual lived treatment is such a call-out, because to be honest, Lupin is overlooking that aspect. And so when Lupin is telling Harry, “You should trust Dumbledore,” or, “We should all just go ahead with Dumbledore on this,” we all know that Dumbledore is actively manipulating Harry still. Still!
[Alice laughs]
Eric: A year after he told him, “I’ll tell you everything,” he still ain’t told him crap. So it’s unfortunate that Lupin kind of gives up early, almost, by saying, “Dumbledore trusts him, and that’s good enough for me,” because there is more going on. And Harry has unique insight into Voldemort’s brain that make him think there’s still more going on, and he’s right, so it kind of complicates things.
Laura: Yeah. Well, and he’s also having Arthur somewhat downplay his concerns with regard to Draco, but Arthur at least tries to level with him, and he was like, “Look, Harry, I checked. After what you said to me on the platform, we went and raided their house, and there wasn’t anything.”
Martha: I’ve always loved that Arthur actually did that. That’s such a showing of trust in this 16-year-old kid that many adults wouldn’t do. That’s like, “Okay, you overheard a weird conversation. Let it go.” That’s what most adults would respond. I say that as a teacher who interacts with teenagers all the time. I wouldn’t go and check the house. Not that I have the chance to…
Eric: So students come up to you all the time, and they say, “Somebody’s doing an illegal thing,” and you’re just like, “Nah.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: “Thank you for telling me.”
Martha: When it comes to the illegalities, no. But like, “I overheard a weird conversation…” I don’t know. It just feels like Arthur… it’s very admirable that Arthur actually went and checked the house and did what he could.
Laura: Right.
Eric: God, somebody is on Harry’s side here, trying to believe Harry.
Martha: Yeah, exactly.
Alice: You would think that would honestly go a little further with Harry. He doesn’t really show… I mean, he still wants to bring his concerns to Mr. Weasley, but he’s not overly grateful that he did that. It’s kind of surprising.
Eric: No. Yeah, Harry could… I mean, this is a 16-year-old boy’s side, but Harry could always say, “Hey, by the way, thank you so much again.”
Alice: Yeah, like, “That means a lot that you took me seriously on that.”
Martha: He’s also very much an afterthought, telling Mr. Weasley; when he tells Ron, he’s like, “I might have a word with your dad too. He might be useful.” Not that, “Oh, that’s the first person I need to talk to about this, because I know he’ll actually do something.”
Eric: I love whenever Harry just veers off and ends up talking to somebody he wouldn’t initially think to, like, “Oh, Nearly Headless Nick is over there,” or, “Oh, Mr. Weasley is over there.” Anybody Harry just randomly is like, “Oh, yeah, this person’s in my life.”
[Alice and Martha laugh]
Martha: I wish that Harry had confessed this to Sir Nicholas.
Eric: Oh my God, that would be amazing.
Martha: “Hello, Sir Nicholas.”
Laura: Well, we’re going to take a quick break, and then we’re going to be back to talk about Christmas Day on this frosty Christmas, so we’ll be right back.
[Ad break]
Laura: All right, and we are back, and we are waking up on Christmas morning, where we’re reminded that the cringe of the Ron and Lavender relationship persists, even though they’re not actively engaged in massive PDA at this moment, but it’s because Lavender has sent Ron a gold necklace with the words “My sweetheart” dangling from it.
Andrew: Eugh.
Martha: Oh, that is such a nice gift.
Laura: Can we relate to Ron’s reaction here? Have any of us ever been in the position of getting a gift like this from somebody and being like, “Ehehh…”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: This relationship is just not going to work. I mean, Ron is not this type of person where he’s going to be wearing this type of thing, and this is just a huge red flag that this relationship is destined to fail. Ron is not this type of person, and Lavender is not seeking out the type of person who Ron is.
Martha: Did Ron even get something for Lavender? That’s what’s really heartbreaking here.
Laura: I don’t think he did. My headcanon is that he did not.
Andrew: He says in the chapter, “We don’t do much talking; we just do snogging.” That’s his gift to Lavender. It’s more kissing.
Eric: His presence is enough of a present for her, okay?
Martha: Yeah, he probably gave her a paper coupon for a five-minute make-out session.
[Alice and Andrew laugh]
Eric: Yeah. Oh my God, all those self-serving Christmas gifts where it’s really like, “Ooh, cuddle time under the mistletoe.” It’s like, “Yeah, that just benefits you.” That’s such a Ron thing! Augh.
Martha: Just… poor Lavender. I mean, this is such a terrible gift and so not Ron, but she went and bought this and thought that he’d like it. Poor girl.
Laura: She’s trying, right? Ron is not trying.
Eric: Well, this is so indicative of how Ron views this relationship, which is to say he doesn’t at all think of it really as anything… he’s trapped in this moment. He’s trapped by his own actions, really. The fact that somebody would think that he was their sweetheart, when really he’s just on some anti-Hermione kick. And it’s a shame to see the setting up for collateral damage here, because Ron doesn’t want to be anybody’s sweetheart, besides maybe Hermione’s, but he’s not doing anything to actually go and get what he wants. Instead, he’s making the situation catastrophically worse.
Martha: Yeah, you’re right; he immediately pivots to asking about Hermione right after this.
Eric: That’s how you know she’s on his mind.
Martha: As subtle as a freight train, as some might say.
Eric: Oh my God.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: Yeah, Ron is not the king of subtlety. Go ahead.
Alice: I do have to thank Lavender for this, though, because this is Martha’s and my all time favorite font in the series, in the American version.
[Laura and Martha laugh]
Andrew and Eric: Ohh!
Alice: The font of “My sweetheart” is just so funny. I think they did a great job picking it out, and I love it.
Martha: I can’t look at this page without cracking up. [laughs]
Eric: Can you describe it? Is it loopy?
Martha: Very loopy.
Alice: Yeah, it’s a loopy, very cursive… not quite cursive, but just so goofy-looking. It just makes it so funny.
Andrew: Girly.
Martha: All these spiral… yeah, again, picturing this on a necklace that Lavender thinks Ron is going to wear just adds so much to this.
Laura: I wanted to spend the rest of our discussion talking about what happens during Christmas lunch when Harry and the Weasleys are… greeted? That’s an interesting term…
Andrew: Greeted?
Laura: Yeah, greeted by a surprise visit from Percy and Rufus Scrimgeour, the Minister of Magic. And there’s this whole just unbelievable setup that it’s very clear… Mrs. Weasley is the only one who buys into it because she’s just so glad to see her son. And the story that they give everybody is, “Oh, you know, we were just in the area working, on Christmas Day…”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: “… and Percy was just… he wanted to stop by and see all of you.”
Andrew: That’s so sweet.
Laura: And Scrimgeour takes this as an opportunity to say, “Ah yes, you, young man, who I definitely don’t know who you are. Looks like you’re done eating. Why don’t you come with me for a turn around the garden? You can show me around.”
Martha: Sneaky.
Andrew: Yeah. First of all, I wouldn’t put it past Percy to actually work happily on Christmas Day.
Laura: Totally.
Andrew: He’s a prat and a workaholic like that. But second of all, this, to me, was somewhat believable until Scrimgeour makes the comment about, “Oh, you, boy, who I totally don’t know is the Chosen Prince. Can you please go on a walk with me?”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: That part…
Martha: “Oh, your plate’s empty.”
Eric: “How about you specifically…?”
Andrew: If Scrimgeour approached this differently, I think maybe it would have went over a little better with Harry. But just this act is so disingenuous that it puts Harry and the others – besides Molly, I guess – on their guard.
Eric: Yeah, Harry points out that others have empty plates, too, and he doesn’t ask them. And in fact, they clearly live here.
Martha: Yeah, why didn’t he invite Fleur and George?
Eric: Yeah, they all have red hair. They all clearly live here, just like Percy did. So if you want a tour around the garden, Harry should just be like, “Well, I could. I’ve never been there, but I could guide you around the garden.”
Andrew: Well, it does make the most sense for Harry to go with him, because all the Weasleys, in theory, would want to spend time with their son and brother, Percy.
Eric: Oh, right. Okay.
Andrew: So just say, “Hey, Harry, good to see you. Can we have a talk?” I don’t know. That’s how I would have approached it.
Laura: Right, just be direct. Be honest.
Martha: Be normal. [laughs]
Laura: I think Harry would have had more respect.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly.
Eric: That’s it.
Martha: He’s just being weird. [laughs] That’s just not how normal people act.
Andrew: And then that puts Harry on his guard.
Eric: Listen, this was a first draft. Scrimgeour has been rebuffed by Dumbledore the whole summer and up to this point, and they finally developed a plan. Admittedly, it’s more like the beginnings of a plan, but it worked! It actually gets the Minister for Magic sneakily right into Harry’s presence so he can make the ask, and I think even Scrimgeour is maybe surprised or didn’t have a chance to plan for it to be, because he so quickly reveals his cards.
Martha: Yeah, what a clever ploy it was.
Alice: Well, the problem is I don’t think he has amazing advisors around him to give him tips on how to interact with people.
Eric: Yes.
Alice: He’s hanging out with Percy a lot, and I feel like that seems like not a good way to figure out…
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: He doesn’t have social skills. Not good ones, anyway.
Martha: Yeah, Percy and Umbridge are his two main advisors.
Eric: Oh, God. And he doesn’t know enough to know not to bring up Umbridge ever, because that is complete anathema to his cause.
Laura: Right. No, and I think it really does go to show that Scrimgeour… even though I think we feel like he’s maybe a little more polished than Fudge, I don’t think that he’s any more politically savvy, because he doesn’t know anything about Harry. If he’s taking his cues from Percy about how to appeal to Harry, that is the wrong person to be getting that guidance from.
Eric: Because Percy never understood Harry.
Laura: No. No, and to be honest with you, I could see both Percy and Umbridge being the ones to say, “Oh, yeah, dangle the carrot of the Aurorship under his nose, and that’ll get him.” It’s like, “You don’t really know this character, if that’s what you think will appeal.”
Martha: Yeah, because that would have been a way to get Percy to do it.
Laura: Right.
Martha: To be like, “You could get a job at the Ministry if you do this.” And so Percy probably…
Eric: And Umbridge too.
Martha: Yeah, true.
Eric: Oh, man. Well, I love the point that Rufus doesn’t have the right advisors, and then he’s pretty much alone, because that’s always how I think of Scrimgeour dying, is completely alone. His Ministry gets infiltrated, and it’s up to the point where he eventually… this great warrior just falls, because he isn’t propped up by the best people. He isn’t propped up by the people that actually have their finger on the right pulse, and it’s just… it is sad to see the beginnings of the end here for Rufus. When Harry rebuffs him, there’s no follow-up plan. The Ministry just kind of grinds to a halt. Not that Harry causes it, but they were always going in that direction anyway, and it’s kind of sad to see the end and it start to unravel here.
Laura: Yeah. Well, I think we could argue probably that the end has been unraveling since he took the Minister position. I just don’t think this man was ever equipped – and I also don’t think the Ministry was equipped – to deal with this in the way it needed to be dealt with. And to that point, Scrimgeour is very much trying to appeal to Harry, get Harry to create the appearance that he is working with the Ministry to try and bring Voldemort down, and Harry point blank tells him, “Well, that would make it seem like I agree with what y’all are doing, and I don’t, because you’re imprisoning and arresting people who are not actually Death Eaters, because that’s easier than going after the real thing.” And also, the call is coming from inside the house on that one too.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Alice: It’s really interesting with this scene, because we see Harry really reject the idea of being used as a tool by Scrimgeour, and saying that he’s Dumbledore’s man, and then we’re going to ultimately find out that Dumbledore is using Harry as a tool.
Eric: It’s a shame.
Alice: [laughs] It’s so interesting that he’s saying this, but just to see that Dumbledore clearly had a much more persuasive approach, so that when Harry does find out eventually that he is being used as a tool, he doesn’t just reject that.
Andrew: I think it is from a place of love and care, though. Dumbledore’s is. The Ministry’s is just shallow.
Alice: I agree.
Martha: More so than the Ministry’s is, at least.
Eric: But at least Dumbledore is taking into account, on some very base level, Harry’s wants, needs, desires, hopes, whatever, whatever. The bar is pretty low, but Scrimgeour doesn’t know Harry at all, to the point. And Dumbledore has set… Dumbledore has done Harry a solid only ever in that he’s given Harry a way to be safe and survive up to this point, but that alone is much more than Scrimgeour could ever give Harry.
Martha: Well, I think it’s interesting that with Scrimgeour… not that this is going to… obviously we don’t have time to talk about all the Scrimgeour stuff, but I think for Scrimgeour, we learn the best, most politically savvy, most noble thing he ever ends up doing is when he dies not caving to Voldemort, and that he wasn’t going to be the pawn for Voldemort that he hoped he would be.
Eric: Aww.
Martha: So maybe this conversation did do something for him, that he maybe does respect the Dumbledore mission a little bit more than we thought he was going to, because we do learn that when Voldemort tries to capture him, he never caved, and never gave the information that Voldemort wanted to get from him.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: I don’t think Scrimgeour is a bad guy, but I think his inability to adapt to what Harry is telling him, and his sort of persistence that they’re going to keep arresting Stan Shunpikes of the world, is enough to put the nail in the coffin between… for their collaboration.
Laura: Totally.
Eric: It’s almost like the feedback he gets from Harry… which Harry is so real for. You feel it from Harry’s heart that he really cares about this. He just doesn’t know what to do with this feedback, because the Ministry is this behemoth that’s working a certain way, and politics, and “You don’t understand; this is how we have to act like we’re doing something.” All these big parts that even Scrimgeour probably feels can’t be changed. Harry is like, “Why don’t you just change this? Why don’t you just wave a wand and fix this and not be this way?” And Scrimgeour is like, “I don’t even know where to start with that. I’m trying to get a Dark wizard now; maybe we could talk about this later.” [laughs]
Laura: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think in a certain respect, I can appreciate what Rufus is up against, because he’s trying to lead a country and a community, and it’s very unclear right now which leader people should be looking towards. Is the leader Harry, or is it the Ministry? And if you’re leading the Ministry, you probably don’t want people to have split allegiances between you, as an organization, and this teenager. [laughs] So that’s the position he’s in, is thinking about the political optics of it all. He’s definitely not thinking about it in the right way, because he’s still stuck on the politics and those moves and what it looks like.
Eric: I’m so stunned by you pointing this out, that Harry actually has a lot of power across the nation right now, power he never utilizes. But when Scrimgeour says to Harry, “It would mean a lot if you would be shown to be seen at the Ministry,” what he’s talking about is actually the power that Harry has to influence minds, and he’s a real influence. That’s a heck of a thing. I often myself overlook it. You know what I’m thinking, Laura? I’m thinking this should be Max’d.
Laura: Oh, definitely.
[“Max that” sound effect plays]
Eric: I want to see both the entire conversation with Scrimgeour and Harry, but also what’s happening in the Burrow. I am surprised Percy escapes with his life. The last time we see the Weasleys, they are all stony-faced, looking at… like you said – I think it was Laura – Molly is the only one that buys into this. And this ruse… I’m just surprised there wasn’t a fist fight and basically a wizard duel, because Percy showing up… I want to see their side of things. I want to see the sibling dynamic that is now unleashed, all this hell, because I don’t think Percy should be allowed to escape from this horrible thing where he invited somebody who was unwanted into the Weasleys’ home for Christmas. I don’t think he should be able to escape unscathed for this.
Martha: Well, you’ll be pleased with the first page of Chapter 17, then.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Oh, gosh darn it! Here’s the problem, is I don’t read ahead, even though I’ve technically read this book before.
Andrew: I don’t either. I need to do that more often.
[Alice and Martha laugh]
Eric: Yeah. Is there a fist fight?
Martha: No spoilers.
Eric: Oh, yeah, don’t spoil me, Martha.
Laura: Keep the secrets.
Eric: Yeah. Darn it.
Laura: Well, that closes out this week’s chapter.
Superlative of the Week
Laura: Now we’re going to get into MVP of the Week. This week’s MVP – Harry has quite a few of these, this chapter – best sassy Harry line of Chapter 16.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to this line: “You’re making Stan a scapegoat, just like you want to make me a mascot.”
Laura: Oooh.
Andrew: I mean, to say this to the Minister of Magic?
Eric: That line goes so hard, I can’t top it.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Eric: I’m going to piggyback on what you said.
Laura: There are so many good lines in his conversation with Scrimgeour, but I just wanted to give this one in an exchange he has with Ron a shout-out. With regards to his Christmas present from Lavender, Harry says, “Classy. You should definitely wear it in front of Fred and George.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: You know, those connoisseurs of jewelry, Fred and George.
Laura: Yep.
Alice: [laughs] The line I picked was also from that conversation about the necklace, and it’s right after Harry gets his present of maggots from Kreacher, and Ron is kind of teasing him about that, and then Harry responds with, “I’d rather have them than that necklace.”
Andrew: Love it.
Laura: Ouch.
Martha: Back to Harry sassing Scrimgeour, I thought it was a huge mic drop moment of “Yeah, and others might say it’s your duty to check that people really are Death Eaters before you chuck them in prison.”
Andrew: Yeah, he was sassy this chapter.
Martha: He says “chuck them in prison” twice, too, which is a great phrase.
Eric: Amazing. Yeah, “chuck.” [makes a throwing sound]
Lynx Line
Laura: And now we’re going to get into our Lynx Line. Supporters over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, which is: What do you think Fred and George were trying to get 5-year-old Ron to make an Unbreakable Vow for?
Andrew: Oooh.
Laura: That’s something that’s revealed this chapter.
Andrew: Neil said,
“I believe Fred and George tried to make Ron promise to be their personal MC, and any time Fred and George would enter a room, Ron must loudly proclaim, ‘BEHOLD. THE LEGENDS ARRIVED!’ Especially at every family meal.”
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Amazing.
Andrew: I could see that.
Eric: Mason says, “Fred and George wanted Ron to give them birthday presents every year for the rest of their lives – at least 30 Sickle value!”
Laura: Oh, that’s mean. Megan says,
“They wanted to make sure Ron would never tell on them! If I had the ability to magically solidify that fact with my younger brother, I would have been in a lot less trouble when I was as a teenager!”
Andrew: Zachary said, “Fred and George were so enamored with a brother who looked up to them so they made him swear he would never change or grow older.” Oh, that’s kind of cute.
Eric: Mev says, “To clean their room for the rest of their lives and not tell Molly.” Man, people really understand Fred and George with these second halves of “There’s a price limit,” and “Don’t tell mom.” So good.
Laura: And Carly says,
“Knowing how much Ron looked up to Fred and George, he was agreeing to be their test subject forever and do whatever they told him to do. He wanted to prove he wasn’t like Percy even from an early age.”
Andrew: Love it. Love the creativity.
Laura: I think that one’s my favorite.
Andrew: Yeah. Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCastast@gmail.com. You can also leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube, or DM us on social. Whatever’s easiest for you. And next week, we will actually kick off our monthly Harry Potter TV show episodes. These are going to be special episodes dedicated to the Harry Potter TV show. We have some special segments that we’ve created just for these episodes; we’re going to be looking at the latest news concerning the TV show, set photos, all kinds of things. They’re going to be a lot of fun, and they’re going to kick off next week. Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more, including the Quizzitch form.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 15 of Book 6, we hear from Luna about the Rotfang Conspiracy, which involves gum disease. What do you call someone who’s a specialist at treating gum disease? The word we were looking for as this week’s Quidditch answer was periodontist. You may really only come across this word when you’re looking up your medical insurance, your dental insurance, but hey, there it is. Correct answers were submitted by Andrew’s Troll; Ben not Shane; Blue the Raptor Stuck in Isla Nublar; Fangs for the Memory; Gummy Walnut; I wish I did have to look this up #FlossYourTeeth; Lunamoona; Mike Who Cheese Harry; Patronus Seeker; QuidWitch; Stewy Brewy Pettigrewy; Teacher of Muggles; and Tofu Tom. And congratulations, everybody. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In this chapter, Molly Weasley jams to a Christmas-themed special on the radio. In what year did the Muggle equivalent of Celestina Warbeck’s Christmas hits debut? I’m speaking, of course, of Mariah Carey’s “All I Want For Christmas Is You.” What year did it come out? And for bonus points, what year of Hogwarts was this for Harry? It came out while he was at Hogwarts; that’s a little hint for you guys.
Andrew: I like hearing Jim Dale perform as Celestina Warbeck in the audiobooks. I was hearing that earlier today. That was really funny.
Eric: You know, it just so happens we’re podcasting with someone that does an excellent Jim Dale impression here.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Alice, would you care to…?
Martha: Alice only does the Jim Dale impression of the narrator.
Alice: I only do it when he’s the narrator, yeah.
Andrew: Oh, she did say that.
Alice: Martha would do the Celestina Warbeck, yep. And Celestina Warbeck…
Martha: I don’t think so.
[Everyone laughs]
Martha: Now’s not the time.
Andrew: They did hire a professional singer for the full-cast audiobooks, and I heard a little bit of that in Prisoner of Azkaban, I think? Or Chamber? I’m forgetting.
Alice: Oh, that sounds fun.
Eric: Well, the Christmas special down at the theme park is excellent, the Celestina Warbeck and the Banshees, I think it is.
Andrew: And she performs year-round, for the record. Not just Christmas.
Eric: Yeah, but they do a special Christmas-themed show to honor this chapter.
Andrew: Martha and Alice, thank you so much for joining us today. It was wonderful having you on. And you two host the Real Weird Sisters podcast. I presume people can find it everywhere they get their podcasts?
Martha: Correct, wherever you listen to podcasts. And we are also on Patreon; Patreon.com/RealWeirdSisters. Thank you so much for having us today.
Alice: Yeah, thank you so much. We had a really fun time.
Andrew: Listeners, check out their podcast, the Real Weird Sisters. We’ll have a link in the show notes. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Laura: I’m Laura.
Martha: I’m Martha.
Alice: And I’m Alice.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.
Laura: Bye, y’all.
Eric: Bye.