Transcript #682

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #682, A Tapestry of Secrets (OOTP Chapter 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Eric Scull: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom, and currently, the Order of the Phoenix book. Grab your Doxy spray and settle in – maybe a Swiffer duster or two as well – because today on the pod, we will be discussing Chapter 6 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black.” I have Laura and Micah with me. Hello, guys.

Laura Tee: Hey, Eric, how you doing?

Eric: Hanging in there.

Laura: Yep, same. [laughs]

Eric: It’s nice to have habits that you can go back to on a weekly basis that keep you grounded and centered during all tumult.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s a really great message for us to start this week’s show with, because there’s just a lot going on, and people aren’t living under rocks, so we all know. And I think it’s really important during times like these, when there are so many difficult conversations and just a lot going on that is outside of all of our spheres of influence, try to remember to pour energy into yourselves and take care of yourself first, and then turn your focus to your communities, because the people you love need you.

Eric: Yeah, and we’re really happy to continue to be everyone’s Harry Potter friends in your ears, so that has not changed. That will not change.

Micah Tannenbaum: No, and we’ve been here through many an administration since 2005.

Eric: Yeah, we counted, right?

Laura: Yeah, we have!

Eric: It’s quite a lot. [laughs]

Micah: And we haven’t changed one bit, and we’re not going to, so there you go.

Laura: Yeah, we’re not going anywhere. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. As we move forward and do what I think will be a fun episode with Chapter 6 of Chapter by Chapter, we also want to remind people that we have cool MuggleCast merch! This time I’m finally wearing the shirt, “Security nightmare,” pink. Yeah, it’s awesome. I’m very proud of it. And we’ve received several posts from our listeners as well, that they’re getting their exclusive merchandise one-off. Anyone who visits the MuggleCast merch store, you’re in for a good time. We’ve got some really good products, “Choo-choo” hats and otherwise.

Laura: Yeah, and honestly, something that I love about our merch store is the customization that is available for shirts, so a lot of the shirts that we offer, you can get in multiple different colors. That might sound, I don’t know, like maybe not the most exciting thing in the shop – and it’s definitely not, because there’s exciting merch – but I am someone who likes to customize. I have a very specific aesthetic that I’m going for, so when I got my “No theory is safe” shirt, I wanted it in that deep maroon color because I thought it was so beautiful, so it just gives everyone some customization. Wear MuggleCast your way.

Eric: Oh, I mean, Laura, what you’re talking about is exactly what got me to getting this shirt. I mean, I love the decal for “Security nightmare” that Anna designed for our Collectors Club, but when I saw I could get it in a pink shirt, I’m like, “Oh, yeah. All in. 100%.”

Laura: And it looks great on you.

Eric: Micah, do you want to do the Santa reminder?

Micah: Yes, something cheery in these not-so-cheery times, at least for some of us. But speaking about Patreon, one of the things that I love each and every year is the Secret Santa that we do over on… usually organized through our Facebook group, and Brittney is the one who’s been doing it for the last several years. And it is now open through December 2, so if you are a patron and you’re not a part of this Facebook group and you want to be a part of the Secret Santa, definitely now is the time. And as I said, it’s something that I really do look forward to each and every year, and I’ve gotten a lot of great Secret Santa gifts over the years, and I’ve hopefully gifted a lot of very fun Secret Santa gifts over the years.

Eric: Yes, your recipients, they’re not here to testify…

Micah: They’re not.

Eric: … but they always seem very well-received.

Micah: I have not once drawn a fellow cohost as part of the Secret Santa, though I assume that could be a possibility.

Laura: Maybe.

Micah: But that’s not as fun. Sorry. [laughs]

Eric: I agree.

Laura: Wow, Micah, tell us how you really feel.

Micah: I take care of y’all anyway, so it’s fine.

Eric: We get each other.

Laura: That is true.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And even Dumbledore participates in our inter-host…

Micah: No secrets needed.

Eric: With cookies.

Micah: Dumbledore? Oh, yes. He has a special kind of cookie that he sends.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Okay, all right. So as we move forward, I’m going to need me some of those. I really need to calm down. There is actually something that is newsworthy for this episode; let’s go to our News Center in New York for that as well.

Micah: [laughs] Is it still open after all these years?

Eric: We’ve been paying the lease on it. Have you not been going?

Micah: No. Well, there hasn’t been a whole lot of news. I’m not sure why we’re paying that lease.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But actually, some exciting news, and I think we had talked a little bit about the fact that Hogwarts Legacy will be getting a sequel, but new information that came out this week is that it’s going to… at least some of the storylines in Hogwarts Legacy 2, the plan is to crossover with the new Harry Potter TV show. David Haddad, who is the president of Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment, told Variety that Avalanche has been coordinating some of the big picture storytelling elements in the Hogwarts Legacy sequel with the storylines that will play out in the Harry Potter HBO TV show. I don’t know what that means. I’m very confused. Anybody? Laura, you’re a big… well, both of you are big gamers.

Laura: I guess the thing that immediately comes to mind for me is that whatever elements they’re going to crossover from the game into the show either need to not matter that much, or they need to be definitive convergence points that all players in the game will reach. Because sometimes in certain games – Eric, you know this – you can make choices. Hogwarts Legacy is a game where you can make some choices, so they’re going to have to… if they want to integrate it, at least the way I’m imagining it, they need to do it at almost a… bottleneck’s not the right word, but a point that is going to be mutually converged on by all players so that everyone can have the same experience.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point. So their House-specific missions could never be referenced.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Hogwarts Legacy each had one of those. To me, this news is a shock because they couldn’t be more different. Hogwarts Legacy, the narrative is there’s this thing called ancient magic, and it typically manifests in the way of a late-blooming wizard who then is doing these amazing feats, kind of akin to what we see Dumbledore doing when he’s facing off against Voldemort at the end of Book 5. It’s that kind of stuff, that level stuff. I can’t see how that’s anywhere close to 10- or 11-year-old Harry, which is going to be the age Harry is when the TV starts, presumably. He won’t be older than that, that’s for sure. So how can you connect anything to do with the Hogwarts Legacy universe and this ancient magic to having anything to do with baby Harry?

Micah: That’s a great question. Because we’re in 1800s, correct?

Eric: That’s another thing. Yeah, we’re 90 years, at least, away from the plot of Sorcerer’s Stone.

Micah: But not Dumbledore.

Eric: But not Dumbledore.

Laura: Yeah. Wait, when does Hogwarts Legacy take place? And when was Dumbledore born?

Eric: Mid to late 1880s? And… well, the earliest reports on Dumbledore’s age was that he was 150.

Micah: And that was in the 1990s. Oh, so presumably he’s around.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: So are they going to retcon it? I mean, to be honest, though, he would have been born about 1840 based off that.

Eric: If the 150… yeah.

Laura: So yeah, I don’t know. I wonder how they’re going to retcon it to make Dumbledore involved, because it seems like that’s their favorite move.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Just based off Fantastic Beasts.

Eric: Well, but at the same time, if he was in love with Grindelwald, who later rose to power around World War II, that puts him being a teenager in the early 1900s, maybe? So there’s that aspect of it, where he would be maybe a student in the game. Uncertain on that.

Laura: Maybe.

Micah: Sure. Let’s not forget that this is also a sequel, so it could be totally different, from a storyline perspective, than what we got in the first edition of it.

Eric: Fair enough.

Laura: That’s true. It does make me wonder who you’re going to play as, because in the first one, you just get to invent your own character. If they’re somehow trying to connect the second one to the Harry Potter story, are you going to be playing as a specific character? You just going to still create your own character, but you’re in the universe with these other characters that we know and have actually met in Harry Potter lore?

Eric: Yeah, well, I mean, what I liked possibly most about Hogwarts Legacy is how disconnected it was from Harry Potter main story, because it was still Hogwarts that we knew and loved. There were familiar archetypes, almost, and that with the teachers, but I liked that they didn’t connect. [laughs]

Micah: I agree with you. That was one of the things I really did enjoy, is that when you’re talking about the expansion of the world, this was the best example of that expansion that we’ve gotten since the books concluded in 2007, and I don’t know that I want something that’s more modern day or that weaves into some of the storylines in the Harry Potter series. I like where we are, so I hope they don’t do things a little too drastically.

Laura: Yeah. Becky in our Discord is suggesting maybe the show is going to be flashback heavy, either that or the sequel will be set in the modern day, and maybe there will be a lot of young Dumbledore flashbacks. So y’all are definitely on to something there. I just… I hope that they don’t lean into this in order to drive success, because I hope they already saw from Hogwarts Legacy 1, they don’t need to do that to get people interested. Hogwarts Legacy was a huge success, so I mean, they’ve already got the formula.

Micah: Right. This Variety article overall was an interesting read because a lot of it was talking about the expansion of the Harry Potter franchise as we move into 2025 and beyond, where they were talking about the TV show, they were talking about Hogwarts Legacy 2, the new theme park at Epic Universe, and now something that’s coming in the next couple of days from the time this is released, is The Hogwarts Wizards of Baking, which is going to premiere on Food Network and Max on November the 14th. It’s hosted by James and Oliver Phelps, and there’s going to be some guest judges, as we would expect: Warwick Davis, Evanna Lynch, Bonnie Wright. And we’ve seen them explore these types of shows before. I’m thinking of the quiz show that they did, which was not the name of it, but…

Eric: Tournament of Champions?

Micah: There you go. This seems fun; it seems interesting. I’m sure everything is going to be themed Harry Potter that the contestants are going to have to bake. It seems more of like a dessert-focused show, but it’s something fun for the holidays I think that Harry Potter fans could get into, and they seem to do a good job in bringing on James and Oliver Phelps. Those two seem to be the signature go-to guys when it comes to a lot of these different events and shows that Warner Bros. explores, so I always think back to them; they’re always at the opening of everything.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: They’re the hype guys.

Laura: Yeah. Kind of surprised they didn’t get Bradley Bakes to join for this.

Eric: Maybe he’s an extra surprise guest.

Laura: Oh, that would be cool.

Micah: Maybe he’s a contestant.

Eric: Oooh!

Laura: Oh, yeah. Ohh.

Eric: And we didn’t hear about it because he’s sworn by an NDA.

Laura: Right, right. [laughs]

Eric: That would be very cool.

Micah: So it’s nice. We haven’t had some news in a while.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I love getting fun news like that.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Eric: With that, let us delve into Chapter by Chapter. We’ve had a few weeks off, honestly. Feel a little rusty; feels a little odd getting into.

Micah: So we’re going to do a seven-word summary?

Laura: Oh, hell no.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Uh, no, that’s too off. And also, Laura is like, “No, we’re done with those.”

Laura: Absolutely not.

Eric: But we are going to get into MuggleCast’s Time-Turner segment; let’s herald the return of that. The last time in which we talked about Chapter 6 of Order of the Phoenix was October 21 of 2019 for Episode 439, titled “Dumbledip,” and before that was Episode 230 of MuggleCast, “Trendsetter,” for June 4, 2011.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 230.

Andrew: In this chapter we also see Mrs. Weasley really keeping them busy with house chores, and that’s again another thing. And the kids pick up on it, this is a way for them to be distracted from discussing what’s going on.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, she employs the same thing in Deathly Hallows when she wants to keep them apart as much as possible, so she puts them to work for the wedding. She’s crafty, that one.

Andrew: Crafty? Yeah, I guess that’s one way to describe it. [laughs]

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 439.

Emily: it’s probably therapeutic for Sirius because he’s been cramped up in here and not allowed to leave anyway, so in order to do something productive, at least he can sort through and throw out a bunch of stuff that has really bad associations for him.

Andrew: Which is pretty much everything in the house.

Emily: Exactly. [laughs] Everything he can remove without being stuck on the walls.

Andrew: Nothing sparks joy for Sirius, except maybe Harry. [laughs]

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Whole lot of cleaning going on.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. I actually titled the first part of this discussion, “Clean up, clean up, everybody, everywhere.” Does anyone remember singing that in pre-K and kindergarten?

Eric: Barney? Ahh. It’s from Barney, right?

Laura: Yeah, it definitely… it’s ringing some Barney bells, I would say.

Eric: “Everybody do your share.”

Laura: [laughs] Right. Well, we’ve definitely touched on a couple different interpretations of how Molly shows up in this chapter with the cleaning, and how the cleaning serves the double purpose of, I think, trying to distract the kids and keep them occupied, but also making the place livable. But something I wanted to look at a little differently was her very overt orders before the cleaning even starts, to tell the kids not to talk to each other after they’re going to bed for the night, so I’m wondering, to kick us off, have we ever been in a situation where an adult forbade us from talking to our friends about hearing something that they deemed inappropriate for us?

Eric: I’m thinking back to scout camp, really, and I don’t know that there was any one instance where we heard something we shouldn’t have, but that whole “Okay, children, we know you could probably be up for three more hours, but it’s past midnight and you really have to go to bed, so don’t talk to each other. Even though I’m now leaving the room and leaving you to your own devices, don’t stay up. Go to bed.” Seems like the quintessential adult versus a group of kids situation.

Micah: Yeah. I’m sure for me, at some point I did that, but I thought it would be almost funny in that, if we were to look at how many different mediums of communication there are today versus back then when this is taking place, or even when we were growing up, the speed with which communication can happen, almost. Phones, texting, apps, computers. It has to be a lose-lose situation for parents, or guardians, authority figures, to try and keep their children from talking about things that maybe they don’t want them to be talking about, right?

Eric: I mean, even just, yeah, looking back to how I used to read books at night with a tiny little light that was part of a gloved hand device that was… it was this whole thing. Now you could just use your phone flashlight, and screen time is unlimited when you’re unsupervised.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Right.

Eric: So yeah, it’s a good thing this is set in the ’90s, so Molly doesn’t have to take their phones before bed.

Micah: What I find to be very just comical about how Molly approaches all of this is that they’re in the same room with each other, right? Ron and Harry are in the same room; Fred and George are in the same room; Hermione and Ginny are in the same room, so the fact that she thinks that Ginny is not going to learn anything from what happened downstairs is, in my opinion, comical. And then the way that she’s policing outside of the doors, trying to listen to see if there’s anything being said, it’s just… relax, Molly. Chill out. She is making me anxious reading this chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah. I’m so glad you called that out, Micah, because I felt the same way. I was like, “Does Molly not know how teenagers work?” And Camille in our Discord is calling that out as well and saying, “I kind of can’t believe Molly is telling teenagers to go to bed. You think that’s going to work?” Of course not, and it doesn’t. I mean, the second she leaves them, Fred and George Apparate into Harry and Ron’s room, and they’re going back and forth for a while until Molly comes around with her policing to make sure that nobody’s talking. [laughs] It’s just like… you’re not going to be able to avoid it. These are kids who are home from school for the summer; they don’t really have anything else to do except hang out with each other.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And this the first time they’re seeing each other, at least for Harry.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Well, and things are just getting interesting, right? This is the first time all summer I think they’ve had enough to talk about or to speculate about. And the thing of it is, they have to utilize this after-bed time, because it’s not like Molly is going to let them talk about it during the day either; she keeps them occupied during the day. So I did appreciate the sympathetic look we took toward Molly in the previous chapter discussion about how she’s just trying to control the things that she can control, because there’s so much that she can’t control, but in this chapter, it absolutely feels like overkill.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a good reminder that all people have stressors, and all people have stress behaviors that manifest when they’re going through something really bad, and I think this is Molly’s stress behavior. I think she’s trying to control the kids because in her mind, she’s keeping them safe, and they may not like it, and it may not be a perfect arrangement, but from her perspective, she’s thinking, “Well, if they stay alive, then that’ll be good enough.”

Eric: “I’ve done my job.” Yeah, that’ll justify… yeah, yeah. Em in our Discord says, “Molly doesn’t respect personal space or boundaries, and it’s kind of toxic sometimes.” I can get behind that. I complained about her cutting off Mundungus’s apology to Harry in the last chapter; that I felt was a branch too far. But Ariane Beth in our Discord says, “There’s this weird theme of safety in isolation that runs throughout the books, which the kids are constantly pushing back on. This is just another example.”

Laura: Ooh.

Eric: And that is a much broader view that I really love, actually, thinking about all the times in which Harry is out of bed at night. And we know why he’s doing it, that it’s accomplishing some goal that he has and doing good, but it’s unsafe, for starters, and Molly would hate it.

Laura: Yeah. Well, Molly is, at the very least – at the very least – trying to make Grimmauld Place livable for all of them, so she does enlist a small army of teenagers to help her deal with a Doxy infestation. I thought we could chat a little bit about the Doxies, and we’ll also get into, over the course of this discussion, some of the other things that they find in Grimmauld Place, because this place really is a treasure trove of little breadcrumbs for what is to come in the rest of the series. In this cleaning, Harry notices that Fred and George are trying to make off with one of the Doxies that has been stunned, basically.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: They’re using some kind of stunning spray. They have spray bottles, and they’re squirting these Doxies. The Doxies are paralyzed by this, not killed. And Fred and George, one of them – don’t remember who – is trying to stuff one of the Doxies in his pocket, and he tells Harry, “Yeah, we actually want to experiment with Doxy venom for our Skiving Snackboxes,” which we’re going to play a little game with later in this episode. But I just think it’s so funny to see the ingenuity at work from Fred and George. They confirm that right now they are their only test subjects for their materials…

Eric: Thank goodness.

Laura: … which is great. It’s not going to stay that way, though.

Eric: No.

Laura: And it definitely should raise eyebrows that they’re saying, “Yeah, we want to experiment with these edible candies we’re making with poison.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, well, a little bit of venom here and there, build up immunities, make you stronger. No, I like that they’re keeping an open mind as far as sourcing ingredients, though. They are not worldly yet; they’re still tied to a school year, so the fact that Grimmauld Place can provide these interesting substances like Doxy venom is something that… I like that they’re keeping an open mind and open to the idea of seeing if it’s anything worthwhile.

Micah: Yeah, and I think that it’s very brave on the part of Fred or George; again, I don’t… I’m not able to recall either which of the twins puts the Doxy into their pants, but it seems a very dangerous thing to do, because presumably those Doxies at some point in the future are going to be revived, [laughs] and it just seems like something you don’t want hanging around in your front pocket. Or your back pocket, for that matter.

Eric: Any pocket. They’ll nibble your buttocks off.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: Well, so that was kind of my question. I was like, “What do they do with them?” Because in this scene, they’re just piling these immobilized Doxies into a bucket, and I’m like, presumably, you’re doing something with them to make sure they don’t re-infest the home. What is that? Are we doing a capture/release program on the Doxies?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Let’s hope so.

Laura: I kind of doubt it, because they consider them household pests, right?

Eric: Right.

Micah: One thing I just wanted to bring up from earlier – and Eric, you were talking about this a bit – was that this idea of cleaning the house really does seem like a task to preoccupy the kids from actually doing other things, maybe exploring it. It’s busywork at the end of the day, but I do think – and we’ll get to talking about the tapestry and the Black family – that there is something to be said for cleansing a place that’s consumed by pure-blood mania.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Decluttering feels amazing. It’s just not an appropriate headquarters until they’ve gotten a little further in than this, and it’s not really fit for habitation until they make sure they’re not breathing in clouds of whatever’s been there for ten years with a apparently dysfunctional house-elf that is possibly making matters worse, even. So I think that’s the real concern. And that’s kind of what kids are good for, that free, unpaid labor of it all.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: If you’re a parent with multiple kids at your disposal, it’s like, “Hey, why not clean the living room today?” I mean, you could make a game out of it. You could play music. Who knows?

Laura: Yeah. Well, for this particular cleaning assignment, they have to have antidote on hand because obviously, Doxy bites are poisonous. And Mrs. Weasley is kind of cavalier about it; she’s just like, “Yeah, we got antidote over here if anyone needs it,” because presumably these Doxies are going to go straight to the source of whatever is trying to paralyze them, and they’re going to bite. [laughs]

Eric: Presumably.

Laura: Also, over the course of this afternoon of cleaning – and it is a full afternoon of cleaning – Mundungus Fletcher shows back up and he rings the doorbell, which becomes somewhat of a theme this chapter. It seems like nobody who’s been to the Order before can remember not to ring the doorbell, because of course, that sets Mrs. Black’s portrait off and just creates total mayhem downstairs. But he not only shows up and does that; he shows up with a crap ton of the dodgy cauldrons that he ditched Harry’s security detail to obtain, and Molly is not having it. And honestly, when I was reminded of this, I was like, “Why don’t they wipe his memory and kick him out of the Order?” He’s a liability!

Eric: They need his skills. They need him to be this ill-reputable thief, this complete… I don’t even know what the word is for it. This complete ass. They need that because… so that’s why they put up with his… he has some redeeming qualities. He saves one of the Weasley kids – is it Ron? – from getting eaten by a sweater or cardigan in this chapter.

Laura: Yeah, but like, do we think nobody else would have saved him?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: I mean, Harry was just going to let him die. He’s still mad about the other stuff.

Laura: [laughs] “You ignored me all summer.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I’m trying to recall offhand: Throughout the series, has he ever had a shining moment where he’s come through outside of supposedly passing information along to the Order that is valuable information?

Eric: No, he kind of sucks.

Laura: I mean, I guess there’s something to be said for they’re in a phase where they can’t trust a lot of people, and you only have so many who are going to be willing to sign up for an anti-Voldemort resistance operation, especially when nobody in the wizarding world even knows or believes he’s back. So I guess this is one of those “Beggars can’t be choosers” moments about Order membership. [laughs] We do have a foreshadow alert.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Laura: There’s this mysterious locket that no one can open; that’s going to be huge in the next book, and even bigger when we get the full pay-off for the story at the end. So it’s just really crazy, and one of those Easter eggs that I always love picking up on when we’re doing these rereads are these blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moments of quick asides, quick mentions of things that end up becoming extremely consequential later on. And the fact that it’s here in this room that they’re trying to clean out – we also get quite a bit of interaction with Kreacher coming up soon – so just the fact that two big answers were actually right there staring them in the face. They just didn’t know the question to ask, right?

Eric: Exactly, yeah. Absolutely. It’s a shame Dumbledore isn’t around to help with the housecleaning because I bet if he were given the locket, it’d be like, “Yeah, we can’t seem to figure this out. Can you open this?” He would have figured it out, or taken it for further study.

Laura: Well, we’re going to get into all of that and much more in a moment, but first, I think I need to go check my curtains to make sure that we don’t have a Doxy infestation, so I’m going to go take care of that. While we’re gone, listen to these sponsors, and we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Laura: Okay, so there’s a portion of this whole cleaning in the chapter sequence where Harry and Sirius come upon “The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black” family tree, and I wanted to ask a question that might be controversial, Eric, so I apologize in advance.

Eric: Yeah, all right.

Laura: Do we feel like Sirius is being a little self-centered here? Because over the course of this conversation, Harry is clearly trying to relate to Sirius and both feeling like they’ve been prisoners in their homes, in their childhood homes where they were miserable all summer. But it kind of feels like Sirius is brooding so much on his own misfortune, he misses a genuine moment to connect with his godson.

Eric: I can see that, because at one point Harry restates his interest in moving in with Sirius, and Sirius is almost entirely oblivious to it. Gone is the joy he felt at the end of Book 3 when Harry suggests, and he’s like, “Wait, you would want that?” and it’s this amazing moment. Here, Harry flat out says, “After my hearing, if it doesn’t go well, I’d love to come back here. Anything’s better than Privet Drive.” And Sirius is like, “Ah, you’d hate it here. It sucks here.” So that’s an opportunity where his brooding is overtaking what could be a nice moment; I see that entirely. I think also, though, the fact of matter is Sirius has a lot of information about the context of this room, who’s on the tapestry; it’s just they’re not happy memories for him. It’s fascinating stuff, but he doesn’t necessarily… you’re not going to love talking about your cousins that are all evil, and various family members that were cool but then your mom struck them off the record. Sirius is having a hard time finding the joy in relating to Harry. I pick up that he likes to tell Harry this stuff, especially when he gets excited about being able to tell him that he went over to James’s when he moved out; that’s a touching moment, but the rest of the scene is entirely, like you’re saying, it’s lost on Sirius the joy of this moment because of the bad memories, and he’s kind of in his head.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and we get to hear a little bit more about the Potters as a family. Sirius says, “I was always welcome at Mr. and Mrs. Potters’ for Sunday dinner.” He talks about how it got to the point where he stayed with James’s family during school holidays, so they kind of adopted him… in fact, I think he says they kind of adopted him as a second son.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: So that just paints a really rosy picture of the family dynamic Harry never got to experience as a kid, and that is really sad. But speaking of families…

[Micah laughs]

Laura: … we do get introduced to Regulus Black on this family tapestry. Interestingly enough, his middle name is omitted from this, and I don’t know if that’s because he didn’t have a middle name at this point, or if it was an intentional choice to make sure that people didn’t connect the dots for what’s going to happen in the next book. But I feel like people already did that anyway, because that was the prevailing theory at the time, that R.A.B. was Regulus Black.

Eric: Regulus. I remember some of the earliest MuggleCasts have that theory, I think, which actually… oh, it wasn’t a theory; at that point it was confirmed because Regulus’s locket is opened at the end of Book 6, the fake one. Got it.

Laura: Right. Yeah, because the real one is right here in this room with them as they’re cleaning, right?

Eric: Or wait, it is until Book 7. Yes, but you’re right, Laura. Yeah, it’s not revealed to be… so the locket just says, “Signed R.A.B.,” so that sparked the… I remember thinking that it could have been Regulus, though.

Laura: Yeah, no, that was the note that he left in the locket.

Eric: Yeah, like, “Dear Dark Lord, neener-neener-neener.”

Laura: Yeah, basically.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: “I found your darkest secret.”

Micah: That would have been much better, actually.

Laura: That would have been funny.

Eric: It was pretty sassy, honestly. I mean, we love, I think… I love Regulus, and it’s amazing that Sirius has no capacity for love because they grew up years apart, and he was considered the perfect son by Black standards, which means they really didn’t have the same personality. They were probably more alike than each of them ever knew. One thing that strikes me – Laura, you mentioned Kreacher popping in and out – you really do have all the ingredients here for figuring out what happened. If anybody were to ask Kreacher, “Guy, can you tell me this story about this locket?” Or, “Do you know anything about it?” Or, “Speaking of Regulus, hey, Kreacher, when was the last time you saw Regulus?” There could have been a lot of character growth in a short amount of time. Would have ruined the whole series and the plot, but I find myself wanting this catharsis to come to Sirius, especially in a moment when he’s feeling down about his family, to find that his brother actually would have done a heroic act in defiance of Voldemort, would have been a really nice thing for Sirius to know about before he died.

Micah: Well, that is, in a way, the tragedy of Regulus, because we hear in this conversation that both of Sirius’s parents had died prior to them learning that Regulus went on to become a Death Eater, and Sirius points out that he’s sure that his parents would have been thrilled by that information. And on the flip side, Sirius dies prior to finding out that Regulus actually defied the Dark Lord and committed probably one of the biggest acts of bravery against him. But what I find so interesting about Regulus is that he’s another one of those characters, much like Draco, when they get in too far and they realize just how sinister Voldemort actually is, they can’t escape it.

Eric: Yeah, “This wasn’t like the brochure.”

Micah: Draco does to some extent, but Regulus couldn’t.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, Draco only escapes it because that mother’s love story came full circle with Narcissa, and Regulus didn’t have that opportunity. But we do get some good timeline information here. I don’t know that we’ve ever looked at it this way, but Harry notes that Regulus Black’s death is listed as some 15 years prior to this. So we know this takes place in 1995, so that would have meant Regulus died in 1980, which is the same year Harry was born. So does that mean that R.A.B. stole the locket the year that Harry was born? Or maybe he did it in advance, and ultimately he carried out his mission near when Harry was born. I guess I’m just wondering, where does this fit in the timeline in relation to Snape overhearing the prophecy?

Eric: God, what a great question. Yeah, maybe Snape would have heard the prophecy a few months before Regulus did his thing, though they aren’t necessarily connected, because Regulus never made it out of that cave, so no one knew he was going in there to begin with. But I love the idea that Voldemort’s deepest, darkest secret was found out a month or two before he was killed.

Laura: Yeah. I just… and I mean, it’s sad too, but I like the fact that there were actually multiple inside efforts in Voldemort’s inner circle to try and overthrow him; they just didn’t recognize each other. Snape, of course… I don’t know why Regulus reached the point where he wanted to turn coat; Snape did it purely out of self-interest, but at the end of the day, you had two people very close to Voldemort who made the conscious choice to go on their own and try to overthrow the guy. And I mean, who knows if they had communicated with each other, with their powers combined, could have been different.

Eric: Yeah, neither of them sat back and waited for a lucrative book deal to do their work against.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So that’s kind of cool of each of them.

Laura: Wow. Are you saying that they have more ethics than people who sit back and wait for book deals?

Eric: Bob Woodward? Absolutely.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yes. Anyway.

Laura: Yeah, would have been useful information. But at any rate, when we’re looking at this tapestry as well, we do get this reminder that all pure-blood wizard families are related, and this is something we touch on from time to time. But the way Sirius describes it here is so matter of fact, and I think that’s an important takeaway to have, that there is this pure-blood society that’s basically saying, “Yeah, we’re going to get kind of incestuous within ourselves to stay pure.” [laughs]

Eric: To keep it pure.

Laura: And I mean, that’s historically accurate. I mean, you look at royal families at a certain point in history, and they were keeping it all in the family, literally. So it’s an intentional choice, but it’s funny because not every relative of the Black family is listed here. The Weasleys don’t even make the cut. There are members of the family that are just simply blasted off the tapestry because they’ve become traitors. But yeah, Molly and Arthur never end up on here. I don’t think there’s anyone with the last name Weasley on this tapestry. [laughs]

Eric: No, no, but maybe their ancestors were… maybe they’re such blood traitors that their grandfather’s grandfather was a blood traitor, and so he was blasted off way at the top.

Micah: It would be interesting to see if Prewett was on there anywhere, though.

Eric: Yeah, I was thinking about that.

Laura: Yeah, I kind of wish we had an official version of this family tree.

Micah: I want to say it was on… a website.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It might have been on JKRowling.com at some point; she wrote it out. Does that sound familiar at all?

Laura: Maybe.

Micah: Maybe the Discord can check me on that.

Eric: What I keep thinking about is the notebook paper that had the various chapters of Book 5 and how different things related to each other in a circle. That was on Rowling.com at one point.

Micah: Yeah. Laura, also, when you were talking about the fact that there are so many breadcrumbs in this chapter, there is one that comes out of this moment too. There’s probably several as Sirius is talking Harry through the family tree, but I’m thinking about when Neville’s parents pop into Harry’s mind because of the mention of Bellatrix Lestrange. He’s able to recall back to that moment where he was inside of the memory in Goblet of Fire during Barty Crouch, Jr.’s trial, and while it’s not explicitly stated here, he seems to remember her name for explicitly the reason of the torture of the Longbottoms, and that comes into play later on in this book because Harry is able to actually meet… not meet, but walks in on Neville and his grandmother with Frank and Alice in St. Mungo’s.

Eric: It’s really doing… for such a low-key or not well-stated moment in the books, it’s doing double and triple duty, because Sirius also tells Harry that anyone on this tapestry Kreacher would be loyal to, so the Bellatrix being on there is double and triple duty. It works on so many levels.

Laura: Right. It’s so interesting, too, because Harry, of course, when he makes the connection about all these families being interrelated, he kind of gasps, and he’s like, “You’re related to the Malfoys!” And I found myself thinking, “Well, Harry, you probably are, too, because your dad was a pure-blood, so presumably the Potters were interrelated with all the other pure-blood families. So yeah, you probably are related to the Malfoys.” And I mean, we know he’s distantly related to Voldemort.

Eric: Yeah. This is the extrapolation of that, I think, very good line from Hagrid that’s in Chamber of Secrets, right? Where it’s like, “There’s not a wizard alive who’s not half or less.” It’s like, literally, because all of this inbreeding and inter-marrying of cousins.

Micah: One of the things that I wanted to bring up was the Black family motto that’s on this tapestry, “Toujours pur.” I think it’s notable that Mr. and Mrs. Black were subscribed to Voldemort’s way of thinking, but wouldn’t go so far themselves as to become Death Eaters or part of his inner circle. I think Sirius calls that out specifically, basically that they support the way of thinking, but they’re not willing to actually step into the ring.

Eric: They sat out this election.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. And I wonder, does that show that there’s a bit of middle ground even amongst a family that is pure-blood? I’m not saying that they were good people by any stretch, [laughs] with some of the things that Mrs. Black is screaming when the doorbell rings all the time… which, by the way, I think is a reminder to all of us and to the members of the Order of where they are and whose house they’re in, and what that means and what that represents. I think that’s why the doorbell keeps getting rung over and over again; it’s the author’s way of reminding all of us that there’s danger inside of the house. As much cleaning as they may do, this is still home to a dark, pure-blood family.

Eric: Yeah, and that aunt of Sirius’s that started the tradition of beheading the house-elf and all of that is in this chapter, and you’re like, “This place is dark. These are dark people.” But yeah, the idea that Regulus was the only straight-up Death Eater of the group does speak to Sirius’s own line of “The world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters.”

Micah: It does say something, though, about the Black family that their motto is “Always pure.” I mean, it’s pretty intense. There’s no cutting corners on that one. [laughs]

Laura: No, but it’s also… I mean, it’s a lie, right? I mean, you just brought up the great point that Hagrid raised, and it’s the kind of thing that you see in the real world, too, when people take pride in certain genetics and they want to claim beyond a shadow of a doubt that they know, back to the start of time, what their exact genealogy is. And a lot of times you don’t know, and people sometimes take their Ancestry or their 23andMe and they get surprised to learn, “Oh, I guess I just hate myself.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: But yeah, I think that this book in particular really drives home a lot of the real world consequences and attitudes that emerge in this type of environment.

Micah: Right. And I do think it’s a lesson for Harry, too; as he’s talking with Sirius, I think he’s learning a lot about the wizarding world. He’s learning a lot about wizarding families. I think up until this point, for the most part, it’s been very clear cut, right? You have Malfoy. Malfoy is bad. His father’s bad; his mother’s bad. You have the Weasleys; for the most part, they’re all good. Ron is good, Fred and George… on and on you go. But now the waters are starting to get a little bit more murky when he looks up and sees this tapestry and all these different people and how they’re interrelated to each other; they’re all part of the same family. It goes to what, Eric, we said earlier, that the world isn’t divided into good people and Death Eaters, and I think that’s a huge lesson for Harry here too. It’s not just, “One family; this is who they are. They’re good or they’re not good.” Everything is kind of mixed together here.

Eric: I just learned that Walburga Black’s maiden name is most likely Rosier.

Laura: Ohh, interesting.

Eric: Or at least Bellatrix and Narcissa and Andromeda… or not Andromeda. Wait, who’s…? Yeah, Andromeda. Their father was, I think… or no, their mother was Druella Rosier, so they’re Rosiers.

Laura: Interesting.

Eric: I’m looking… so the HP Wikia, by the way, our listeners provided.

Laura: It does have it. Great. Thanks for sending that, y’all.

Eric: Sirius and Regulus’s father’s name was Orion. That’s kind of cool. It’s another star…

Micah: They’re playing on these constellations way too much. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: The Black family.

Laura: It’s the first and last cool thing about him, apparently. But while we’re talking about some of these disturbing trends and themes and breadcrumbs and foreshadowing, let’s talk about Kreacher, because we get to spend some time with Kreacher. And my initial thought upon reading this is… I was like, is it not alarming to anyone that Kreacher basically already predicted the ending of this story? When he says… because Sirius claims that he’s going to kick him out, and Kreacher starts talking about himself in the third person and saying, “Oh, well, you can’t kick Kreacher out, because then Kreacher could go and share all of your plans to try and defeat the Dark Lord.”

[Micah laughs]

Laura: He basically tells us what’s going to happen. So I’m wondering does Kreacher have an inkling that this might come to pass? And is he goading Sirius intentionally to try and make that happen?

Eric: Ohh. I think it’s clear that Sirius has no love for Kreacher. It is one of his character flaws, his… no ability to reckon with him. And it’s also clear that Kreacher fantasizes about being closer to a Black cousin that is not a Muggle lover, so I think the pieces are there for sure.

Micah: I agree, and Kreacher is a reflection of this house; he is the embodiment of Grimmauld Place. And that said, I do think that Sirius… it’s not that he wrongly associates, but it’s not the full story when he really is saying that Kreacher’s behavior is a result of him being locked up in Grimmauld Place all these years. I think that’s partly true, but Kreacher has been damaged. He’s been damaged by the cave potion; he’s been damaged by the Horcrux locket; he’s been damaged by losing Regulus. And Laura, when you were talking about how he was referring to himself in the third person, as I was reading through this chapter, I kept saying to myself, “Who does Kreacher remind me of?” And it finally clicked, that he’s so like Gollum from Lord of the Rings.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: He behaves almost identically to him. And if you want to kind of… locket/ring comparisons, I definitely think that there’s something there. Now, I don’t know that the author was a huge Tolkien fan, or that she was…

Laura: She was.

Micah: She was, okay. So I mean, there’s possibility that she drew upon Gollum to inspire Kreacher.

Laura: Yeah, I think there’s a lot of overlap and a lot of inspiration there. I think that’s a safe bet.

Eric: What I love about something that Michelle just said in our Discord is that “It’s so interesting that they are all Kreachers of that house, but they each went their different ways and made different choices. It is understandable that Kreacher is damaged; they all were. It’s just so interesting to see the diversity.” I agree with that. The Black family are each unique, I think, in their personality, despite all coming from the same house.

Laura: As we move on towards the end of the chapter, Harry actually gets a little bit of a reprieve from all the cleaning and all the worrying that he has about his upcoming trial, because sometimes certain members of the Order will hang out with them around the house to help with things. Tonks is one such person. And what I love about this is it also mentions, in the same large paragraph, that Remus was also staying at the Order of the Phoenix. He would go away for long periods of time on missions, but he was staying there. And I was like, were they just keeping things quiet at this point, or did the other adults know and just not mention anything?

Eric: About…?

Laura: About Remus and Tonks.

Eric: Oh, I thought that was… I thought something else entirely was happening here. Because doesn’t it say that when Remus comes, he stays with Sirius?

Micah: That’s what I found interesting reading that.

Eric: I was like, “Wolfstar!” [laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah. No, I mean, that’s another way to read it, too. But knowing the way that the story goes.

Eric: Oh, right. You have to bring canon into this? Come on.

Laura: Yeah, I know, I know, it’s so boring. Listen, the Wolfstar read is way more interesting. [laughs]

Eric: I love it. But this would be where Tonks and Lupin are getting the most of each other’s company, for sure, during these little cleaning sessions, even. Or dinner, during dinners.

Laura: Yeah, during dinners. I mean, and then it’s mentioned at least once that Tonks is there helping them to get a particularly nasty ghoul out of there. But yeah, I just found it interesting, and I thought that this could be one of those really cool opportunities for fanfiction to fill in the gaps here. What was going on from Remus and Tonks’s perspectives during this time? Was their romance already starting?

Eric: I definitely wonder. I think it wouldn’t have evolved into something as close to romance until later, because Remus wouldn’t allow it; he’s not open to that kind of a thing, and it’s only after persistence that he would realize he does have feelings for Tonks as well, is my read on that.

Laura: Yeah. Remind me, when does Snape tell Tonks that her Patronus is weak? Is that this book, or the next one?

Eric: Isn’t it after the train? It’s the next one. And I’m not sure if it’s September 1, after Harry has got his nose smashed and all that, or if it’s later that year as she’s guarding the school, and Harry happens to… I think it’s probably way later, so maybe Christmas of next year.

Laura: Yeah, probably. At any rate, I think this is where it started.

Eric: Fair enough.

Laura: I think it all started this summer.

Micah: That’s why the doorbell kept getting rung.

Laura: [laughs] I mean, I think Tonks is smart enough not to do that. She will knock over the damn umbrella stand every time she comes in.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: I was surprised that she didn’t botch something when she was helping out cleaning in this chapter. I was waiting for that to happen.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe as a writing device it had already been used too many times.

Eric: Maybe, yeah.

Laura: Well, we kind of are left on a foreboding note at the end of this chapter because Harry is suddenly jerked back to reality when Mrs. Weasley is like, “Hey, just a reminder, your trial’s tomorrow, and you’re going to go to work with Arthur. I ironed out your best clothes, so you need to eat and go to bed.” And what worse feeling for a 15-year-old who’s on their summer break, [laughs] than to have just been reunited with his friends and finally feeling normal, and then boom, “You’ve got to go to your trial tomorrow.”

Eric: Plus he finds out that Dumbledore has been there but gone away, too, and I’m like, “Man, again?”

Laura: Well, and it was even… the excuse was “You were sleeping” or something. “You were occupied.”

Eric: [laughs] “Oh, I guess I missed my chance.”

Laura: Yeah, like, “Excuse me? No, you should have come and woken me up so I could talk to this man. I got a bone to pick.” [laughs]

[Ad break]


Lynx Line


Laura: But anyway, we will see how Harry’s trial goes in our next Chapter by Chapter installment. But for now, we are going to turn to our Lynx Line. This is our newest benefit on Patreon; thank you so much to all of us who support us over there. This is a benefit where we will ask our Slug Club patrons a question pertaining to either our discussion that week or pertaining specifically to the chapter, and the question that we asked was, “You have to pick one item from the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black to display in your home. What is your choice?”

Eric: First one comes from Carlee, who says,

“I think I’d take the music box that makes people sleep. My husband has chronic insomnia, and sometimes it keeps me from sleeping. Plus, when my 6-year-old won’t sleep, Mama has a little trick up her sleeve! This is, of course, assuming the music box only makes you sleep and doesn’t do anything more nefarious.”

I agree, this would be… I kind of slated this for something I would want to take with me. Also, creepy music boxes are creepy; perfect for this season we just got out of.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: Also, props to Ginny here, right? Because she’s the only one who has enough sense to snap the box shut when they all start getting drowsy and sleepy.

Eric: Yeah, I’m so glad that you caught that moment of Ginny’s triumph there, Laura, and gave her her flowers.

Laura: Honestly, I think Ginny is a great character who didn’t get enough moments like that in the series. I think I would have enjoyed her a lot more if she had.

Eric: Fair enough.

Micah: Zach says,

“The portrait of Phineas Nigellus Black. I would love to pester him daily about that potion he needed in Hogwarts Legacy.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. He’s not going to talk about it. He’s never going to talk about it.

Laura: Oh, man. Oh, how fun would it be if they cast Simon Pegg to play Phineas Nigellus Black in the TV show?

Eric: Oh, absolutely. 100%.

Laura: Oh, God, that would be incredible. And they could include… maybe this is how they can include game lore in the show.

Eric: Oh, that would be so good. But not till, like, Season 8, right? Or Season 5?

Laura: Yeah, but the funny thing is they can show Phineas and he can be seated, and he can be shifting uncomfortably in his chair to give a hint about what it was he was using that potion for. [laughs] Our next one comes from Rachel, who says,

“The family tree would be so cool! I don’t remember if there was any kind of grandfather clock, but I’d be interested in that if so.”

Yeah, that’s a good one. Yeah, the family tree is cool.

Eric: Definitely agree. Ashley says, “The coughing wastebasket.” No explanation given, so we’re left to speculate on that.

Micah: That would get annoying really quickly, though.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Michael says,

“I think they had a piano that didn’t seem to be nefarious in any way, so I’ll please take that, thank you very much.”

Laura: That’s what you think, Michael. Basically everything that is in the Noble and Most Ancient House of Black is haunted automatically, bare minimum.

Eric: There was a ghoul in a toilet upstairs. What’s that doing there?

Micah: It’s a bidet.

Laura: I mean, it’s not the first time we’ve heard of a ghoul in a toilet in this series.

Eric: Fair enough.

Laura: Next one comes from Eleanor, who also says,

“Family tree. It’s very cool both in concept and design from the film. I also really like the fact that it proves that even in a ‘bad’ family – pure-blood mania and Death Eater support – there are people who turn their backs on that. What Dumbledore said is true: There’s light and dark in all of us.”

Yeah, absolutely, just like what we were touching on about Regulus earlier in this discussion.

Eric: Kayde also says, “The creepy music box. Not sure what that says about me as a person.” Kayde, you’re all right. Like I said, I would go for that one too.

Laura: Yeah, I think it’s fun.

Micah: Leah also likes the family tree.

“I already purchased it and display it in my living room as a throw pillow. Thanks, MinaLima!”

Eric: Oh, that would be a very comfortable pillow.

Laura: Yeah. No, that’s very cool. And I mean, you can’t go wrong with MinaLima either.

Eric: Right.

Micah: I wonder, did you burn cigarette butts into it to make it more authentic?

Eric: [laughs] Distressed.

Laura: I mean, I would hope that it would come with that already on there; I feel like that’s a major part of the aesthetic. Cassandra says,

“I would like my house to have the Black house’s ability to hide in the neighborhood, to be unplottable.”

Yeah, I love that idea.

Eric: Yeah, it’s pretty… and I believe that that probably wouldn’t have been a thing until the Order took it over, or was it? Do we think that that’s unique to Dumbledore’s Secret-Keeping here?

Laura: Honestly, I think it was already unplottable because Sirius mentioned that it was the perfect location for headquarters because his father had put so many different protection charms on it.

Eric: Oh, that’s right! See, you’ve changed my mind, because I would have thought… I always associate the Fidelius Charm with Dumbledore because that’s exactly what he suggested Lily and James do, but that doesn’t… yeah, I mean, you would also think that Orion Black would know some stuff, so that’s cool. Yeah, okay. Julianne says,

“I’d take the writing desk with the boggart inside. Would certainly liven up my work days.”

I feel like there’s a fun, quirky sense of humor to these Lynx Line replies. You’re kidnapping a boggart just for an interesting afternoon.

Laura: [laughs] Can boggarts experience trauma?

Eric: Boggarts are trauma.

Laura: True. Can trauma experience trauma? Oooh.

Eric: Let’s not get… yes, and I’m living it right now.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Ning has an interesting one.

“The portrait of Mrs. Black. It’s how I’m scaring off those pesky door-to-door salespeople/scammers/burglars.”

Laura: That’ll do it for sure.

Micah: You might just want to put a filter on her, though, because she may get you in a little bit of trouble.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Jump ahead to Chelsea, who says, “One of Sirius’s bikini-clad woman posters.” I bet they’re vintage. They were in 20 years ago.

Laura: Honestly, I found this to be such an interesting piece of context about his character, because presumably these are Muggle women, I’m guessing.

Eric: [laughs] Maybe that’s why his family…

Laura: Maybe that’s why they were like, “Get out.” [laughs]

Eric: The only thing more controversial than your son looking at a calendar of scantily clad women is if they’re Muggle women!

Laura: Well, because I don’t recall that we ever see anything like this in the wizarding world, really.

Eric: Like if Witch Weekly has a bikini calendar or something? Yeah, I don’t know.

Micah: Oh, it’s got to exist. [laughs] But I don’t know if we can talk about it right now.

Laura: Yeah, probably not.

Eric: Playwiz.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Playwiz, oh my God.

Micah: Broc wants to know,

“Is Kreacher an option? Having some help with chores would be a hell of a convenience. And after you warm up to him, you know he has some mad stories to tell.”

Eric: Yeah, agreed with that.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, honestly, Kreacher is not doing too well here, so Broc, if you wanted to treat him as a roommate, I think you could really move the needle for sure.

Eric: Agreed.

Laura: [laughs] Catherine says, “I don’t know about ‘display,’ but does Buckbeak count?”

Eric: Yeah, Buckbeak is upstairs. That was a good catch.

Laura: Yeah, that was a good catch. I think we said items, though, right?

Eric: Yeah, so maybe the bag of treats for Buckbeak.

Laura: Yeah, there you go.

Eric: And then if you put them out…

Laura: Oh, the bag of dead rats. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: Well, thanks so much to all of our patrons who participated in this week’s – and every week’s – Lynx Line. I did want to pose a question to the panel now. We didn’t talk a ton about the variety of Skiving Snackboxes that Fred and George are getting into, but we do learn about a couple of them this chapter. So I wanted to ask, which joke candy would we be willing to try to get out of something we don’t want to do? And your options are Puking Pastilles, Fainting Fancies, or Nosebleed Nougat.

Eric: This is like that game FMK because there’s one I would never choose, which is the Puking Pastille. I just feel like that is not a pleasant feeling. None of them are pleasant. Having a nosebleed is not pleasant. I’m choosing the least annoying option, which is still pretty dangerous, but not in a wizarding world where they can heal your bones. Fainting Fancies would be my choice.

Laura: Oh, that would be so scary to me.

Eric: You ever just want to disconnect, unplug, lose consciousness?

Laura: I mean, but losing consciousness, I don’t know if I want that.

Eric: I’ll take it.

Laura: But I understand not wanting to puke.

Eric: Yeah, and I had nosebleeds a lot as a kid.

Laura: Oh, I see. See, I didn’t; I’ve never been someone to have a lot of nosebleeds, so I chose Nosebleed Nougat.

Eric: I can see how that would be a novelty.

Laura: Yeah. Well, also, I mean, I have had them before and they’ve never been severe for me, so I guess that’s what I’m comparing it to.

Eric: Yeah, like, what seems the least severe? Absolutely.

Laura: What about you, Micah? We’re doing, like, suffering Olympics over here with our Skiving Snackboxes. [laughs]

Micah: I’m trying to think, what’s the one most likely to get you out of class with least suspicion?

Eric: Oh.

Laura: Probably puking.

Eric: Yeah, because they want you out.

Laura: Nobody can argue with that.

Micah: That is true. None of these widely appeal to me.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: They’re not supposed to!

Laura: You don’t say.

Micah: It’s funny because one could lead to the other. If you bleed enough from your nose, you could get a little bit faint, or you could puke as a result of it. So yeah, if I had to pick one, I’d probably go with the Puking Pastilles.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and don’t forget, y’all, there is an escape plan that comes with these. Remember, they’re two-tabbed candies. You take one to bring your illness on, and as soon as you are away from any parties who could witness you doing so, you can take the other half and you’ll be right as rain, so no more puking, no more nosebleed, no more fainting. Although, I don’t know how that works with the fainting, because if you faint, how do you…?

Eric: You kind of come to and then you’re in the hospital wing… yeah, I don’t know. Maybe you have some of your afternoon back, maybe not. Asterisk, though, Fred and George are still working on fixing the puking thing.

Laura: Yes. Yeah, they are, and we’re going to get to see them test it out in not too many moons here. [laughs]

Eric: Well, so the one that’s not mentioned, that apparently is also confirmed, is Fever Fudge.

Laura: Ah, yeah, yeah.

Eric: That’s the best one, because first of all, it’s fudge. And also, you just have to be ill enough, present ill enough to get out of class. So if you feel your forehead, you’re like, “Oh…” Teacher says, “Oh, you’re so hot, you’re burning up…”

Laura: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: And then you leave. But getting a fever can be pretty dangerous.

Laura: Yeah. No, that’s true. That’s true. I think I left it out because I hate getting fevers.

Eric: Oh, there’s that.

Laura: Yeah, we don’t hear about it yet, but we do find out about it later. Well, thanks so much for taking part in my particular spin on the weekly question. We like to mix it up here on the show. Instead of leaning into the old MVP of the Week format, we want to ask each other a specific question about the chapter.

Eric: I love that.

Laura: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com.


Quizzitch


Laura: And now it is time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: How many Halloween feasts do we see Harry attend during his time at Hogwarts? And the correct answer was three, as a matter of fact! He misses the second year Halloween feast because he’s at the deathday party, and he attends the first, the third, and the fourth years, but after that, they never mention them again. 75% of people said they didn’t look it up. They got the correct answer. Congratulations to these winners: Buff Daddy; Ben; Educational Decree Number 31, Halloween feasts will hereby be disbanded… which is pretty much what happened. Elizabeth K.; Pilbus Dumbledough; Spooky Scary Slytherin; Stubby Boardman’s biggest fan; and Whipped Aquafaba. Think we’ll go with that. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: So a lot of talk about Doxies in this chapter. In the Sorcerer’s Stone PC game, what spell do you primarily use to deal with Doxies? It’s one of the classics of old video gaming. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on the website, maybe reading transcripts, checking out our must listens page, a.k.a. the Hall of Fame, just click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Laura: You know, Eric, I actually have a copy of the OG Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone for PS1 that Marc got for me as a gift…

Eric: Aww.

Laura: … and I am going to be playing it soon, and y’all might…

Eric: You should submit your Quizzitch answer.

Laura: Yeah, so I’m going to have to go back and see if I can get the answer to this, because I don’t remember.

Eric: They go to the greenhouses, I think, is when you first meet them.

Laura: Oh, okay, okay. Well, I’m looking forward to sitting down and playing that game and Flipendo-ing everything, because that’s all I remember from that game. [laughs]

Eric:Flipendo!

Micah: You can’t Avada Kedavra them, can you?

Laura: No, you can’t.

Eric: No. You have to really mean it.

Laura: And that is where Hogwarts Legacy is superior.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, man. As a reminder, everyone listening, listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast 19 years later, and there are, in fact, three great ways to help us out. If you are an Apple Podcasts user, please subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus – as our Patreon too – two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, and October’s were both very spooky. For even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, Lynx Line participation, physical gift, a video message from one of the four of us made just for you, our private Facebook and Discord groups where you can hang out with fellow Potter fans, and so much more. And once again, please visit MuggleCastMerch.com. It’s the giving season, and it’s all of our brand new one-off merchandise that has never been seen before. It’s exclusive for you. And if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, please tell a friend about the show, and leave a five star review on your favorite podcast app. And we’re excited to get to Chapter by Chapter next week, Chapter 7, “The Ministry of Magic.”

Laura: Looking forward to it. Thanks so much, y’all.

Eric: Bye.

Laura: Bye, everybody.

Micah: Bye.

Transcript #681

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #681, Should We Feel Sorry for Petunia Dursley? And more MuggleMail


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: This week there’s no tricks, only treats.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We’re recording on Halloween, as we’re busting open our Muggle Mailbag to take your questions on all things Harry Potter and our recent Chapter by Chapter discussions. I’m currently dressed as a podcaster for Halloween. Did you y’all see that? I’m wearing headphones; I’m wearing my MuggleCap.

Eric: [laughs] It’s honestly one of the best costumes you’ve ever had.

Micah: It’s a good look. I like it.

Andrew: Laura and Micah are actually dressed as voters, which is really sweet.

Micah: [laughs] We planned it.

Andrew: This episode is being released on Election Day. If you haven’t voted, Americans, make sure you go out and vote. And a reminder to everybody that the MuggleCap and other merchandise from MuggleCast is available in our recently launched MuggleCast merch store at MuggleCastMerch.com. We have T-shirts, we have sweaters, we have hoodies, we have hats, we have glassware, so check it all out. We do ship worldwide. A great holiday gift idea for people, if you’re looking for things for the wishlist. And once you receive your merch, be sure to tag us on social media, and we will share it. Thanks, everybody. It’s a great new way to support the show.

Eric: Yeah, already seen a lot of pics come in; people got their merchandise. Very, very good. It’s very touching, and they like it a lot.

Micah: And speaking of seeing a lot of things coming in, I’ve seen several of our patrons post about receiving their MuggleCast Collectors Club stickers.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: They’ve gone out in the mail, so if you haven’t yet received them, keep an eye out for an owl that will be headed your way in the next couple of days.

Andrew: Micah, did you have to clean up a lot of owl poop in your owlery when you were shipping all those out?

Micah: Well, no, because it’s unseasonably warm here in New York; they were actually all just hanging out in the backyard, and so I didn’t have to worry about cleaning up anything at all. I just took all the post outside, and they just took off without any issue.

Eric: Love it.

Andrew: That’s great. Do you speak to the owls?

Micah: Of course.

Andrew: Do you go “Hoo-hoo”?

Micah: Well, no, they don’t like that. They find that patronizing if I actually have a conversation with them.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s true. If you try and speak owl with a Long Island accent, it’s kind of offensive to them.

Laura: Andrew, I’m pretty sure you just insulted all owls’ mothers in owl hooting, so watch out.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, they hated… one time I was sending stuff by owl, and they hated when I was going, “Who let the dogs out? Who? Who? Who?”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, I hate that, too.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Fun fact about that song: It was the first song I ever downloaded on Napster.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: Well, anyway, speaking of patrons, they have access to an exclusive Facebook group, and in it, one of our listeners, Brittney, organizes an annual holiday gift exchange, so patrons, don’t miss out. You can join the group at Facebook.com/groups/MuggleCastPatrons. You can also just search for it on Facebook. If you’re not a patron yet, it’s a great way to share some Harry Potter joy with fellow listeners each holiday season.


Muggle Mail


Andrew: So without further ado, let’s get into our Muggle Mail episode, and we’re going to start with a couple of voicemails. This first one is from Heather concerning the Cursed Child.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi, I’m Heather. I’ve been a MuggleCast listener since 2006, and I have a response to your graveyard episode where you discuss the shortening runtime of Cursed Child on stage. I saw the Chicago version just a few days ago, and then last year, I also saw the London version, which is a two-parter with two and a half hours, then a two hour intermission, then two and a half more hours. And the thing I observed was the audience, how in the London production, it was almost all adults, and how in the Chicago production, it was almost all families with small children. So yes, I do agree with Laura that this was a corporate decision, because making accommodations for families with children who may not be able to sit still for five hours opens up an entirely new market of sales for the Cursed Child production.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: I mean, you think about a typical children’s movie, too; think about a Pixar movie. They’re what, an hour 45 minutes or so? Because they know kids don’t have the attention span. And I remember when we were talking about Cursed Child in its earliest days, one of our concerns was that a two-part show is a big commitment for somebody traveling to New York or London. I mean, you have to stay overnight, potentially, just to see the entire show, and that’s kind of ridiculous.

Micah: It is. I do like the point that Heather is making, though, in that maybe they are trying to appeal to a more family friendly audience with this Broadway show. When I saw Cursed Child just a couple weeks ago, I did notice more families there than maybe I would have otherwise anticipated. But it does make sense if you’re going to a two-part show, like the one that’s still in the West End of London, the chances of you taking a young child to that is relatively low because they’re not going to be able to sit through that long of a show. So I would, though, just add to that that I do think the visual effects probably entertain the kids much more than maybe what would go on in your normal Broadway show, because there is so much magic; there is so much fun stuff that’s happening in the theater. I don’t know that you necessarily get that with, let’s say, Aladdin or The Lion King, to try and maybe compare to something you might take a young kid to go see.

Andrew: All right, let’s listen to our other voicemail from Mikaela, concerning Hermione and grad school.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi, MuggleCast. I thought you guys would appreciate this: I’m in the first year of my master’s program, and we have this project where we have to pick a fictional character to do a bio psychosocial assessment on, and I picked Hermione, so I’m getting to go very in-depth on Hermione’s character, and drawing on lots of MuggleCast episodes that I’ve listened to. But I appreciate you guys, and I love the podcast, and thanks for everything you do.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Aww, that’s awesome. Glad to hear that the show’s helping.

Eric: Very cool.

Laura: Yeah, that’s amazing. Congrats on pursuing your graduate degree.

Micah: Very cool. I wonder how many papers, reports we’ve been cited in over the years.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I don’t know, but I have one book on podcasting that cited us that I keep behind me.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. There it is.

Andrew: Career Building Through Podcasting.

Eric: You had that in reach.

Andrew: This little book for high schoolers. Yeah, I think it’s kind of cool to have on display.

Eric: It’s pretty cool.

Micah: I’m curious, is podcast now an acceptable medium to cite in a report?

Laura: Yes.

Micah: It is?

Eric: Yeah, it has to be.

Laura: Yeah, it is. Now, there are lots of things that are acceptable to cite, and plenty of things that can be cited are not necessarily the best resources. But yeah, you can definitely cite podcasts, and ours is an excellent resource if you’re writing a paper about Harry Potter. [laughs]

Micah: Oh, 100%.

Eric: If anyone wants to write a thesis and include us and mention us by name, send it to us and we’ll send you a free T-shirt.

Micah: Well, that’s also why it’s so great that we have transcripts. Shout-out to Meg.

Eric: It is! Yeah, yeah, and all the latest episodes, as well as, I think at this point, all of the must listens on the Wall of Fame are all covered.

Micah: Wow. All right, well, let’s bust open this Muggle Mailbag. Laura, it’s your job this time.

Laura: All right. Well, getting into the mail bag, our first message comes from Julian, who writes in on the Wizengamot. And Julian says,

“Hey, y’all’s. Since you are on Order of the Phoenix, we will be hearing about the Wizengamot. I never once thought about the word, just accepting it as a wizarding world word, but about a year ago I decided to move to England, and with this move, learn a bit about English history, as it is also a little bit of my history. Long story short, it is derived from the word witenagamot. A witenagamot is a meeting of the witan. The witan is basically the king’s council around about 800-1000 AD. It was composed of noblemen and important people of the church at the time. They would come together from time to time to discuss happenings and give the king advice, and at times, even decide on lines of succession. Think of a bigger version of the small council in Game of Thrones, that meets a lot less often. Suddenly there feels to be more context of the word rooted in Muggle reality. If you want to delve even deeper, I highly recommend The British History Podcast, especially Episode 199 which covers the witan. But the interesting thing about the podcast as a whole is that every once in a while you see a bit of the wizarding world peppered in there. Shhh, the Muggles still haven’t figured it out yet. Thanks for all the hard work.”

Andrew: That’s awesome.

Laura: Julian, that is such a cool observation. I had no idea about that. Thank you for educating us.

Eric: It makes sense, too, that you would have… I think it was a progenitor to the modern day House of Lords in British Parliament, when I was researching, and yeah, it’s really good stuff. It makes sense to give noblemen stakes in your kingdom so that they support your laws, and for Fudge, I really wonder what that council is tasked with enforcing or doing for the Ministry, but that makes it… I think it lends even more important context to what Dumbledore’s risk was in telling all the members of the Wizengamot that Voldemort had returned.

Andrew: I think we could consider this a name origin.

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Andrew: Whoa!

Micah: I’m not even sure we had that one on the name origin section of MuggleNet back when I was managing it, many years ago.

Eric: I’ll update it right now.

Micah: Please do.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But yeah, very cool, Julian. Our next email comes from Kayla on Harry the hormonal Horcrux, and she says,

“In Episode 675 (Chapter 1 of Order of the Phoenix), you all were discussing Harry’s feelings of jealousy, isolation, and frustration while being stuck at the Dursleys’, and trying to decide if those feelings were being caused by the Horcrux. What I found interesting is that those are all the exact feelings Ron was experiencing in Deathly Hallows which caused him to leave Harry and Hermione. The circumstances were also very similar in that he felt like Harry was withholding information from him and that Harry and Hermione were spending more time together without him, leading to feelings of jealousy and isolation. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the Horcrux was playing a bigger role in Harry’s feelings in the first chapter of Order of the Phoenix as we see the same tactic used by the locket later in the series. Thanks for all you do to keep the fandom alive, and I’ve appreciated having you a part of my life since 2007 for when life gets overwhelming and I just need a break to enjoy some Harry Potter time.”

Eric: Love this from Kayla.

Andrew: That’s what we love about doing this podcast, too; it’s a nice break from the real world. So thank you, Kayla.

Eric: Yeah, but we’re finding some more juicy evidence in comparisons with this whole Harry/Horcrux thing. I really like it.

Andrew: Yeah, I think this is some not just juicy but hard evidence, too, that the Horcrux is at play here.

Eric: Makes a lot of sense. All right, our next Muggle Mail comes from Julian, who says,

“Hi, MuggleCasters! I find it cute that you all think that Dumbledore had a whole detail on Harry.”

[Laura laughs]

“I’m pretty sure he only had a skeleton crew, being Mrs. Figg and Mundungus, which is why Mundungus just took off. There was no one to replace or cover for him. Not excusing him, but Dumbledore should have known better. Harry wasn’t worth the resources because he was overly certain about the blood protection. That whole ‘smarter than everyone, bigger mistake’ scenario. Love the show.”

Eric: Okay! You guys, we’re cute.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I’ll take it.

Andrew: I think… I wasn’t surprised either if Dumbledore put a small crew around Harry. Otherwise, you’re risking being noticed if there’s a lot of people surrounding Harry. You’ve just got to keep a small group together so it’s incognito.

Eric: Well, there were no shortage of volunteers to come pick him up, according to what Moody said in the “Advance Guard” chapter, so I find it interesting if there was a shortage of people to volunteer for rotating shifts on Privet Drive.

Laura: Yeah, I wonder if maybe Dumbledore was trying to divvy up the tasks so that no one person or one group of people would know too much, right? So I could see him potentially not wanting as many people involved in Harry’s detail during the summer before he leaves, and then having a huge overlap with the people that are going to come take him away just in case the Order gets infiltrated. We see that he does do this throughout the series; he sort of breadcrumbs information to specific people at strategic times. This might be part of it.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point. I still don’t think we will ever find out who’s in the rear guard that shoots the sparks up that give Moody the clear, so there are more people just hanging around that we…

Andrew: It’s the B crew.

Eric: The B crew.

Andrew: They’re not as critical to the operation, in my opinion.

Micah: My issue isn’t so much that it was a skeleton crew; it’s that it’s an inept skeleton crew.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: They do what they can.

Andrew: The C team. We have the A team, the B team, the C team.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: They just hang out… the P team, because they hang out on Privet Drive.

Eric: More like C minus team, am I right?

Andrew: [laughs] All right, this next email comes from Clayton on “Should we feel sorry for Petunia?”

“Hey y’all, I’ve been rereading the books alongside yourselves. I had a couple of thoughts I would be interested to hear your opinions on. When I first read the books as a kid, Petunia’s treatment of Harry was shocking. As an adult, though, I can’t help but feel a bit sorry for her. I can’t imagine the trauma it must have caused, seeing her sister be lauded as a gifted young witch attending this exciting school to study magic while she sat in geometry class. Add to that the loss of the close bond Lily and Petunia shared, Lily and Snape’s relationship, and Snape’s treatment of Petunia, and it must have been a fairly difficult childhood. It certainly doesn’t excuse the abuse of Harry, but it does make her a much more interesting character to consider now that I’m an adult, and sheds some light on childhood trauma and how it shapes us. Secondly, there’s a scene in Chapter 6 of Chamber of Secrets that reminds me of Snape’s memory around the lake from Order of the Phoenix. In Chamber, the trio are sitting around outside while Hermione reads and Colin Creevey admires Harry and asks for his photo. This feels similar to Lupin reading under the tree while James and Sirius relax, Pettigrew amazed by James and his skills with the Snitch. The trio is then confronted by their nemesis Malfoy, just like how Snape arrives near the tree. In both books there is a group of onlookers, with only Lockhart in Book 2 sparing the fight we see in Book 5. Just two things that have stood out to me so far as I reread with a new perspective. Thanks for all you do. Y’all are definitely my favorite podcast!”

Andrew: Thank you to Clayton the Gryffindor.

Laura: Aw, that’s so sweet.

Eric: It’s a cool connection.

Andrew: I don’t think I’ve ever considered the fact that when Lily went to Hogwarts, Petunia lost her sister, her sister’s daily presence at home. That kind of blows my mind. I mean, that would be a huge bummer.

Eric: Yeah. It’s hard for me to… because in my head, I… well, Petunia made the choice to be jealous of Lily, and made the choice to resent her sister’s so-called giftedness, but you’re not really going to get over that. There’s not… I mean, put simply the way Clayton did, geometry class kind of blows. [laughs] So I don’t know that there… her parents would have had to do extra work to make sure, and instruct Petunia and comfort Petunia and give Petunia enough distractions, and then work to preserve the relationship, when Lily was home, between the two girls, and that probably didn’t happen. Petunia always felt like she was left out. She always felt like her sister was praised and loved more by her parents, and that is a failing of all of them, and not of Petunia.

Micah: And she was rejected. Let’s not forget that.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: As soft and tender as Dumbledore likely was in his note back to Petunia, she didn’t make the cut, and that probably cut deeper in a lot of ways.

Andrew: Yeah. And I don’t think Petunia’s jealousy was a choice, Eric. I feel like…

Eric: It is, though. Right?

Andrew: Is it? I mean, isn’t that a natural feeling?

Eric: Yeah, because you could be happy… if you have a sibling who’s slated to win a Nobel Prize, are you going to be mad at them? Resentful of them? Or are you going to be happy for them?

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Eric: Or somebody who gets into all honors classes.

Andrew: I just think you can naturally be jealous, too. It’s out of your control, maybe? There’s ways to reduce the feeling of jealousy.

Eric: It’s a natural emotion. It’s a natural emotion, but to let it consume you or define your relationship is a choice, is what I’m saying.

Micah: Andrew is also more mature now. If that would have happened maybe when he was younger and his brother got… I assume it would be your brother who got the Nobel Prize.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Well, my sister maybe could, too.

Micah: No, but…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Yeah, shots fired.

Andrew: It was just my sister’s birthday less than a week ago. Happy Birthday, Becca. Micah thinks you’re an idiot.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I’m kidding.

Micah: But you know what I’m saying.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. When you’re younger, you might have more jealous feelings towards your siblings if maybe they win the baseball game.

Eric: It’s a great point, too, because Lily died so young, they really didn’t get a chance to be adult siblings.

Laura: Right.

Eric: And I feel like even if you have troubled teen years together, the 20s-ish is probably when some of that gets resolved through conversation and further work on both parties. Lily died when she was 21, I think, so that didn’t get to happen.

Laura: That’s such a good point, because I even think about my own relationship with my brother, and when we were kids, we fought all the time. [laughs] We fought like dogs and cats all the time, and it wasn’t really until we both got older that we actually developed a closer sibling bond, and unfortunately, Lily and Petunia don’t get that chance, and I have to imagine Petunia has some regret mixed in there as well.

Micah: Probably. And I think that jealousy is what turns into spite later on, and while maybe the choice wasn’t there to be jealous when she was younger – maybe that was just a natural reaction – how she treats Harry now is fully under her control, and she chooses to treat him horribly.

Eric: Yeah. One thing, since we are busy all feeling very sad for Petunia right now, Legalize Gillyweed made a good point in the Discord, saying, “Dumbledore lost a sister too; wonder if he empathized with Petunia,” meaning when he wrote the note, too, knowing that he’s…

Micah: Well, then he should’ve let her into Hogwarts.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: But if she ain’t a witch, she ain’t a witch. There’s nothing you can do about that.

Eric: He lets Hagrid… well, he lets Filch… I don’t know. It doesn’t make much sense. Legalize Gillyweed also said, “RIP James and Lily, by the way. Anyone else grieve them today?” That’s right, Halloween is their deathday.

Andrew: Yeah, so let’s extend some grace to Petunia on this anniversary.

Laura: Our next piece of mail comes from Christian. It’s on the importance of emeralds. Okay. They say,

“Hello hello, MuggleCasters. I just had a revelation when looking at my new engagement ring.”

Laura: Congratulations, by the way. Had to pause to say that.

Andrew: Ooh!

Laura: Christian goes on to say,

“There is, along with a sapphire (yeah Ravenclaw), an emerald on it (not for Slytherin, ew, but it’s gonna be a gay ol’ wedding, so obvi it’s because of The Wizard of Oz). Anyway, I digress.”

Eric: Nice.

Laura: Your wedding already sounds like so much fun. [laughs] I love this. Anyway.

“I read up on the stones a bit about hardness and how they’re formed and gain their color, and HOLD ON!!! On the Wikipedia page under the alchemical section, it says about emeralds: ‘They say that if a venomous animal should look at it, it will become blinded.’ And I am blown away! It’s probably why Slytherin chose emeralds as the stone of his House, so his students would be even more protected from the Basilisk. I love finding stuff like this. Anyway, wish you a great day! Thank you for making my ride to and from work so much more fun while being stuck in traffic. Keep doing what you’re doing. Greetings from Germany from a listener since 2017.”

Eric: Wow!

Laura: Yeah, that is so cool!

Andrew: That is sick.

Laura: And the fact that the emeralds are used, what is it, because the stones of the House… do we get to see the emeralds used as snake eyes in any of the carvings anywhere?

Andrew: Ooh.

Laura: Because if we… I’m not saying that we do, but if we do, that’s really incredible, given what we know happens to the Basilisk in Chamber of Secrets with Harry stabbing its eyes out. So I just… ah, that would be cool. Thank you so much for this.

Andrew: Max that.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah, I love hearing connections like this, even 19 years into doing this podcast. So our next email is from Sarah on Nick’s Petrification, and she wants to know,

“Upon rewatching Chamber of Secrets, I was wondering how Nearly Headless Nick came to be rescued from being Petrified? They explain that the only cure for Petrification is a potion made from mandrakes. On the Wizarding World website, it’s confirmed that this is a tangible substance, a ‘restorative draught,’ as opposed to a spell. My question is, how did they feed this mandrake potion to Nearly Headless Nick, since it was mentioned in the Chamber of Secrets book at the deathday party that ghosts cannot consume food? Hope you guys can think about this question even though I know you already discussed Chamber of Secrets. I’m loving the Chapter by Chapters. Thanks for all you do.”

Andrew: So could there be a potion, a type of potion, that can be consumed by ghosts? But this also raises the question of can ghosts get sick? And how do they get better?

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yeah, I’m thinking back to the deathday party. There is this moment where one of the ghosts floats through one of the platters of rotten food that they have there and says that he can almost taste it, but not really, and so I’m wondering if there’s some equivalent here to allow for the potion to work on a ghost. Do they just have him…? Do they push his Petrified ghost form through the potion?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Can the ghost soak in the potion, like in a tub, and then it absorbs that way, maybe?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, oh, God. I was thinking along similar lines and always have, because remember how they relocate Nick to the hospital wing, is they kind of waft him? They get fans or something and…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I assume you can aerosolize the potion and mist it and spray it and then it’s kind of more of a gas?

Andrew: Or could a ghost choose to eat something, choose to drink a potion, if they want? Like, sure, they can move through the food, but can they switch the path and then they can eat the food?

Micah: Like Casper?

Andrew: Is that how Casper…? Can Casper do that?

Micah: Well, Casper’s uncles, right, Eric?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You know what I’m thinking of.

Eric: It’s true. Fatso, Stretch, and Stinky.

Micah: Yeah, they do quite a lot of eating, and they basically don’t fully process the food… but anyway.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m delighted by the reference.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I don’t really have a good answer. I almost wonder if Nearly Headless Nick, since he was the vehicle through which… was it Justin Finch-Fletchley saw the Basilisk?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Should he have even been Petrified?

Eric: Yes. Well, he should have been killed, but he wasn’t.

Laura: He was already dead.

Andrew: Right, right.

Micah: Well, that’s my point. Then he should have been fine.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, but because…

Micah: Like, the water didn’t become Petrified. Hermione’s mirror didn’t become Petrified.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But that’s a breathing… do ghosts breathe?

Laura: Yeah, but I mean, if we’re talking about inanimate objects versus animate objects, like Nearly Headless Nick is, he has free will, right? So I think that qualifies him to be Petrified. But what this email is really highlighting for me is that this is kind of a plot hole. I can’t think of a reasonable explanation. Him getting Petrified makes sense; him getting un-Petrified by the same potion they use on all the living victims does not make sense.

Eric: You don’t like my misting idea? My aerosol…?

Micah: I actually liked that a lot.

Laura: That is the closest thing that makes sense, and I cannot imagine that that was a solution that was thought of at the time of writing.

Eric: Yeah, you just put it in a Febreze can, and you spray it with the…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: And Nick smells great and he’s back to life.

Laura: I mean, I like your theory, Eric, for sure.

Eric: I just always assumed, from the moment they move him from that spot using wind, that they can also restore him using a spritzer, basically.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Okay, this email comes from TJ, who’s got a “What if?” for us.

“Hey MuggleCast! I have been listening to you all since 2006.”

Lot of longtime listeners – we’re very touched – writing in today.

Andrew: Thank you.

“And even followed you all on the Smart Mouths days!”

Eric: Shout-out to that old show.

Andrew: Woo!

Laura: Aww.

“I have a bit of a ‘What if’ scenario for you. What if Alfonso Cuarón directed the Goblet of Fire? How do you think the film might have changed to what we got with Mike Newell? Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!”

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Andrew: First of all, this might be the first time we’re doing a “What if?” about the real world and not the fictional world of Harry Potter. But what TJ is saying is, would it be a little more artsy? Would it be a little less angry? I don’t… what do you think TJ is asking exactly when it comes to Alfonso? And Eric, isn’t this your favorite movie, Prison of Azkaban?

Eric: No.

Andrew: Oh, sorry.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: No, that’s Eric’s favorite book, right?

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: And probably least favorite movie.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But I remember, as a sidebar, that I did want Alfonso back for Fantastic Beasts; I thought he would have done a great job with the Fantastic Beasts. With Goblet of Fire, it’s hard to tell whether it would be more or less faithful. Cuarón really narrowed the scope to capture the teenage sort of self-ness in Prisoner of Azkaban. Goblet of Fire would have presumably followed a more narrow path. Yeah, I think it’d be arty. We’d get a lot of good shots.

Andrew: Exactly, yeah. I don’t really like Goblet of Fire the movie. I bet Alfonso would have started by saying, “Hey, kids, cut your hair. Make it as short as the last movie.”

Eric: Yeah, or “Here’s an essay prompt. Write an essay. The longer your essay, the longer we’ll allow your hair to be.”

Andrew: [laughs] And none of them would have done it. Bald heads.

Micah: And Mike Newell wouldn’t have broken any ribs.

Eric: It’s the butterfly effect.

Micah: Do you remember what I’m referring to?

Eric: Yeah, he broke a rib rolling on the ground with Fred and George, I think it is?

Micah: Yeah, he was teaching them how to fight.

Andrew: Alfonso or Mike Newell?

Micah: Mike Newell.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Micah: Yeah, because the age line fight is in Goblet of Fire.

Laura: Honestly, where I think Alfonso Cuarón would have been incredible for Goblet of Fire would have been with the maze task. I think aesthetically, especially given how he showed that he’s very willing to lean into creepy aesthetics when need be, I think would have been incredible. I honestly think the maze task in the Goblet of Fire movie is boring, and I think he would have really… he would have amped it up quite a bit and actually made it feel as significant as it felt when reading the book. But Goblet is my favorite book, so I’m a little more critical of the movie, maybe, than most. But yeah, I would have loved to see Cuarón direct Goblet, because I liked the Prisoner of Azkaban adaptation. It wasn’t perfect; there were definitely some big misses in terms of stuff that got left out, but I feel like stylistically, that was the first movie that, to me, felt like it really captured the tone of the stories and of the characters, and that was the tone that ultimately stuck for the rest of the series, so I appreciate Cuarón for that.

Andrew: Laura, what you’re saying reminded me of the shrunken head on the Knight Bus. I mean, that was an Alfonso Cuarón touch, and now I’m mourning the fact that if he did do Goblet of Fire or later movies, he probably would have brought other unique flourishes to the film series in canon, and it’s a crying shame we didn’t get more of that across the series.

Laura: He didn’t want to, though, because they had asked him, I think, and he talked about how directing a Harry Potter movie was like being on a really long road trip where you really had to pee…

[Micah laughs]

Laura: … and he just didn’t have another one in him, so it was really clear that he only wanted to do this one.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, he’s got experiences with mazes; he was a producer on Pan’s Labyrinth. And I really agree with you, Laura, I would have loved to have seen the sphinx brought to life, some of the other creatures that we encounter in the maze. I would have loved to have seen his take on the merpeople and all the other creatures that live in the lake. The dragon actually wasn’t too bad…

Laura: No, that was fine.

Micah: … so I don’t think I really need a revision there. But even thinking to the end of the movie with Voldemort’s resurrection, somebody like Cuarón on that would have been really cool to see.

Laura: Yeah, I think he would have knocked it out of the park.

Micah: What’s his take on the Dark Mark? How does that appear in the sky? No knock on Mike Newell.

Laura: No.

Micah: He did a good job.

Andrew: Eh, I’ll knock on him. I didn’t think he was that great.

Micah: [laughs] He had a broken rib, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I mean, I’ll be honest, when we did our Goblet of Fire commentary, I actually walked away from that surprised at how much I enjoyed seeing the movie again. I remember when I first saw it in theaters I was actually kind of disappointed, because I went in with such high expectations for it since it is my favorite book. I still don’t think it’s the best Harry Potter movie. It’s definitely not the worst; I’ll give it that.

Andrew: Well, moving along, this next one is quick and easy Q from Catherine. She asks about Harry’s Parseltongue abilities. “Is it ever confirmed whether Harry’s ability to speak Parseltongue ends after Voldemort is defeated?” And the answer, quite simply, is yes, and it was actually confirmed on Pottermore.com – excuse me, WizardingWorld.com – excuse me, HarryPotter.com.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Put it in the graveyard!

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, so according to some original writing on what used to be Pottermore.com, Harry could no longer speak Parseltongue after the events of Deathly Hallows. “Once the part of Voldemort’s soul that dwelled inside Harry was destroyed, Harry discovered he was no longer a Parselmouth, an added bonus of Voldemort’s demise,” HarryPotter.com editorializes. I don’t know; I think it’d be cool to speak Parseltongue.

Micah: Yeah, me too.

Eric: Also, does that mean, then, by extension, that every time Harry speaks Parseltongue, he’s actually using the Horcrux?

Andrew: Oh, that’s interesting.

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Eric: If it goes away when the thing is no longer there, then it means it was the Horcrux that enabled him to do it.

Andrew: He’s kind of turning it on, or activating it.

Eric: Yeah, dipping into secret knowledge.

Andrew: That’s interesting.

Laura: Yeah, he was subconsciously activating the Horcrux.

Andrew: It’s kind of cool.

Laura: That’s interesting.

Eric: So we’ll keep an eye on that.

Laura: Well, our last email for today comes from Ben, and this is a Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast soul.

“Hi MuggleCasters, I’m from Ireland and I’ll be 13 in December. It’s my first time writing and I’ve just started listening to the new episodes yesterday because I had started with Episode 1 about a year ago and worked my way up to 400 and I’m still going. Through Harry Potter I started my reading when my uncle lent me his original four books, and thanks to you, I have continued my reading and fandom journey with books you’ve mentioned, and integrated in the Twilight and Hunger Games fandoms. Thanks for reading. From a proud Puff, Ben.”

And Ben adds as a P.S.,

“An alternate Deathly Hallows ending to end it with scar: ‘All was well. For the past 19 years, there had been no pain in his scar.'”

Andrew: That’s awesome, Ben. Thank you for sharing.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. And hey, happy early birthday.

Andrew: Yeah, and also, I think it’s pretty cool that we also helped you step into the Twilight and Hunger Games fandoms, it looks like. I, for one, am excited for the next Hunger Games book that comes out early next year, following Haymitch.

Eric: I’m really, genuinely excited for that.

Andrew: Sunrise on the Reaping, coming out in March of next year. Suzanne Collins has been doing this post-core series thing right. As has Stephenie Meyer, honestly. [laughs] They release some extra books; they stay off social media.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Take note.

Eric: No, the film version of Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes got me way the heck back into Hunger Games. I watched all the movies again.

Andrew: I loved that movie, yeah.


Lynx Line


Micah: So our newest benefit over on Patreon is our Lynx Line, so thanks to those who support us over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and we got some really good answers to this week’s question. We asked: We want to know what our patrons’ biggest takeaways are from the first five chapters of Order of the Phoenix. Was there maybe something we glossed over, something they’d like us to hear discuss in a little bit more detail?” And we got some good responses.

Andrew: This first response is from Rachel.

“I’m really liking the consideration of the Horcrux inside Harry and how that influences him. I’d never thought about that on any of the other times I’ve read the series. I’m also excited and hopeful for conversations surrounding Ministry interference at Hogwarts as the book progresses. Thanks for the great episodes.”

Laura: Oh, don’t worry, that’ll come with the territory.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: This next one’s from Julianne, who says,

“I actually had a lot more empathy for Harry on this reread. Not only is he a teenager (who developmentally is egocentric), but he’s just been through almost literal hell and then sent to live with people who abuse him regularly. He has no support and is alone. My mom/teacher heart breaks for him.”

Micah: Yeah, he’s been through it.

Laura: Yeah, and it’s only the beginning. Carly says,

“I wanted to put this on the Lynx Line about Order members but I chickened out, so I’m going to put this here.”

Andrew: Don’t chicken out!

Laura: Yeah, yeah, please leave your feedback whenever you feel compelled to do so for the Lynx line, Carly! Carly goes on to say,

“Professor Grubby-Plank would have made a perfect Order member, especially for guard duty. She obviously doesn’t have a day job if she’s so available to be an on-call substitute teacher for Care of Magical Creatures, so I imagine she’d have no problem just hanging out with Figg and her Kneazles all day.”

That’s a really great observation, Carly, and I can only think that perhaps Grubbly-Plank had not been fully conceived of yet as a character. Although we do see her in this book, right? So maybe someone who was writing didn’t connect the threads…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: … to how this character could have been used.

Andrew: “Somebody who was writing.”

Micah: Cassandra says,

“I was struck by how conceited Harry is portrayed. From the first chapter, he recalls that HE is the capable one who confronted Voldemort, that he is the one who brought the news of Voldemort’s return. Is this the Horcrux or normal angry boy dealing with stress? Or both?”

So I know we’ve talked a little bit about this on some of the Chapter by Chapter episodes, but these specific examples that Cassandra is calling out here… do we think it’s Horcrux or Harry?

Eric: Yeah, it’s a lot like when Voldemort is like, “I went further than anyone else to avoid death. I did it; it was me.” Feels very Voldemort to me.

Andrew: It does, because they’re big statements. And he’s not wrong, but these are big things to say in front of your friends and family.

Laura: Yeah, and we never really see Harry talk like this before or after this book, right? I can’t think of any other examples where Harry is almost boastful. He’s normally pretty grounded and not terribly egocentric, so this was a little out of character.

Eric: Even later in this very book, he’s the one going, “I had loads of help every time I faced Voldemort.”

Laura: Right.

Eric: That’s something that Harry in the early part of the book would absolutely never be saying.

Andrew: At the risk of this sounding like a cop-out, it could be both things happening here, where it’s the Horcrux and his rage, which are a unique combination in this book.

Micah: I like that. I think it’s the Horcrux that’s feeding off the rage.

Andrew: Oh yeah, yeah. It’s a deadly combination.

Laura: Hormones and Horcrux. Horrible.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I had the same problem when I was in high school.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: This next message is from Lady Gryffindor.

“Why couldn’t Sirius do a charm or transfiguration spell to change his looks and allow him to venture out of his home? Hermione did it to Ron in Book 7. You’re telling me the Order couldn’t do that for Sirius as well? Love you all.”

Eric: Aww. That’s… yeah.

Andrew: Well, and I mean, he does turn into a dog, so there’s that. But I think maybe they just didn’t trust him. They didn’t want to put the idea in his head.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, fair enough. Because I mean, this is somebody who already has a target on his back, right? And he tends… he has a history of being reckless. I mean, even him…

Andrew: Yeah, he could be looking for a fight.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, even him going… we’re going to see him go to King’s Cross in his Animagus form here in the next couple of chapters, and even Harry is going to note how risky it is for him to be doing that.

Micah: Right.

Laura: And isn’t that kind of how he ends up giving himself away, too, at least early on?

Eric: Yeah, Lucius or somebody spots him.

Micah: Lucius. Because it’s assumed that Pettigrew would share with anybody that Sirius is an Animagus.

Eric: Well, that’s what Sirius tells Harry in the previous chapter, too, that his cover is blown, basically. But yeah, transfiguration, charms. I think for me, the thing that makes the most sense is it’s a mixture of wanting to leave the house, but also having nothing to do if you were to leave the house. Complaining that you have nothing to do, but then ultimately, where’s he going to go? Even if somebody offered to transfigure him, is he going to go for a walk? How fulfilling will that be? Is it an everyday thing?

Micah: Maybe a swim, a run. Why not?

Eric: And from Lloyd,

“How do you think Kingsley is providing the Ministry with false information on Sirius Black? Surely a reasonable Ministry official would doubt he was in Tibet. Do we think there’s any Confunding or memory-altering happening?”

I want a series of this. I want to absolutely see Kingsley doing the misinforming.

Andrew: That would be fun.

Eric: But yeah, I don’t know. I think that he would probably have to manufacture some kind of evidence.

Micah: Right, but he can also plant the evidence. He’s literally in conversation with Sirius on a regular basis, so I’m sure that Sirius could provide him with the necessary tools to be able to lie effectively. But in terms of Tibet, I don’t think that’s a stretch. We know wizards can Apparate, so is it really that far-fetched that Sirius could be in Tibet?

Eric: It’s really just about the motive. Yeah, even though you could say it doesn’t make sense, we don’t understand the motive; it’s not clear…

Micah: Well, it doesn’t make sense because it’s so far away? Or it’s just a random place?

Laura: But he’s on the run, so I actually think that makes perfect sense. I do like this idea, though, y’all talking about Kingsley needing to work closely with Sirius to really pull this off. I love the idea of Sirius writing some fake correspondence that Kingsley can then take into work and claim to have intercepted through his various connections that he has in the field, so I could see Sirius faking a letter that he wrote from Tibet…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: … so that he could hold that up and be like, “See? This is where he is.”

Eric: “Dear Dark Lord, greetings from Tibet.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Do y’all think that Sirius would have walked to Tibet? Because I just Google Mapped it, and it’s possible. So you’ve got to take a ferry. 3,871 hours to walk from Scotland to Tibet. Just throwing it out there.

Micah: He was in dog form, so he ran.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: He did it in a week, yeah.

Andrew: Google says, “This route may cross country borders.” Uh, ya think?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “How do I get from this country to that country?” “Well, it may cross some borders.”

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I mean, he could always just get on the Titanic and get over there. Wizards travel that way, right?

Andrew: Yeah, as was documented in Fantastic Beasts.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Not since it sank.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say that this comment made me think about the movie Jumper. I don’t know if anybody’s seen it.

Laura: Oh, yeah!

Eric: Yeah, with Hayden Christensen.

Micah: That’s how I imagine Sirius Apparating from one location to the next as he’s being chased by Ministry officials.

Andrew: Well, this was a lot of fun. As always, listeners, thanks so much for your feedback. We really appreciate it. If you have any more feedback about today’s discussion, or Chapter by Chapter or anything else, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, we’ll be back to Chapter by Chapter with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 6.

Eric: I’ve missed it, going through the book, doing the Chapter by Chapter.

Andrew: Me too.

Micah: It’s been a couple weeks.

Laura: Looking forward to it.

Andrew: It has been.


Quizzitch


Andrew: All right, now it’s time for Quizzitch.

Eric: Our last Quizzitch question was: Name a nation within the United Kingdom where the legal voting age is 16 years. This is due to recent conversation in the book about Harry being of age, so that’s why we asked that question. And correct answers, it turns out, are Scotland, Wales, and the Isle of Man, so 16 years all in the UK nations there, so that’s pretty impressive. 50% of winners say they did not look up the answer, and last week’s winners include 9-year-old John the Gryffindor (I didn’t look it up, I asked my mum!); A permanent sticking charm portrait of Gollum has been added to cart four times (one for each host)…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Thanks for that. Ben; Bort McVoldemort; Buff Daddy; Can the Harry Potter TV show please cast me?; Daddymort; Did you know pants means underpants in the UK?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yes, we did know that. Eleanor my 10-year-old will be able to vote in the election after the next, boo hoo; Elizabeth K.; Flip the Fawkes; Fluffy’s three heads; GraveyardCCTV.com; Gred & Feorge still too young to vote in England; Harry Potter and the election for parliament; Hermione when she gets 99% on her test; Huffly Puffly the 12-year-old; I never called the MuggleCast official number, but I was so sad when you said it was gone, and I would storm Google headquarters to get it back with an army of Kneazles…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … Imholyfred; Lady G; Listening from the Dominican Republic; Patronus Seeker; People don’t tell me ANYTHING!; Robbie; Ruairi Hipkin; Show me a Scotsman who doesn’t love the thistle, show me an Englishman who doesn’t love the rose, show me a true-blooded Aggie from Utah who doesn’t love the spot (clap, clap) where the sage brush grows. I looked that up, and that’s a Scotchman song from Utah State, for anyone who’s wondering. Sirius and Molly need a spa day; The postal vote that was six days late thanks to Errol; The racist and most insulting house of Black; and Wibblewumper the third. Y’all did not disappoint with those answers. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: How many Halloween feasts do we see Harry attend during his time at Hogwarts?

Andrew: I like it.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good one. Back in spirit of today being Halloween. Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website using the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch in your URL, or if you’re on the website checking out transcripts or Wall of Fame, must listens, that kind of stuff, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We are an independent podcast just sharing our love of Harry Potter with fellow fans, so your financial support is critical. In fact, listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. There are three great ways to help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you access to ad-free and early releases of the show, plus two bonus installments every month. And for many more benefits, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MC Gold, plus our livestreams, Lynx Line participation, a yearly physical gift, access to the MuggleCast Collectors Club, the exclusive Facebook and Discord groups, a video message from one of the four of us, and more. We put a lot of effort into our Patreon, and that’s because we really appreciate your support there. And last but not least, grab some merch. Visit MuggleCastMerch.com for all of our brand new merchandise, or visit MuggleMillennial.etsy.com for our overstock store. It’s getting cold out, y’all; I think it’s a perfect time to go ahead and purchase the MuggleCast Comfy Cozy Combo Pack. And I speak from experience, because this morning, I was wearing the MuggleCast beanie, and it was so cozy and warm and soft.

Eric: Were you wearing the socks too?

Andrew: I was not, but tomorrow morning I’ll do the Cozy Comfy…

Micah: Were you just wearing the beanie?

Andrew: Yes. Yes, Micah.

Eric: Just out walking the dog.

Micah: But it’s also 80 degrees here today in New York.

Andrew: What the heck? What the heck, Micah.

Micah: October 31. November 1, almost.

Andrew: But get the beanie in preparation for the colder days ahead. [laughs]

Micah: Get it anyway.

Eric: Eventually.

Micah: Winter is coming.

Andrew: It will get cold. If you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and we would appreciate a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #680

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #680, Harry Potter and the Graveyard of Goods


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Halloween is upon us, and to celebrate, we have a special episode that we’re calling “Harry Potter and the Graveyard of Goods.”

Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: This is not about canon, though. This is about the numerous official projects by Wizarding World Inc. that have died over the decades.

Eric: Tragic deaths.

Andrew: These have been, you could say, rejected by the Sorting Hat, and mischief was not managed. They were Wingardium let-downs that are now in Diagon Fail-y.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: “Fail-y.”

Andrew: They were potions gone wrong, and left us disarmed, so we’re going to run through all of these today.

Laura: The Goblet of Fire spit ’em right out.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It was like, “Don’t come past that age line.” [laughs]

Andrew: Chewed on ’em for a while and was like, “You know what? Ain’t my thing. Bye.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So we have done many different types of Halloween episodes on MuggleCast over our 19 year history. Micah, do you want to give us a rundown for anybody who might be wanting to keep up the Halloween spirit this week?

Micah: Yeah, why not? I mean, there’s plenty of episodes to go back and give a listen to around the Halloween spooky season, and don’t have to go that much far back than Episode 633, which was last year. We actually did a Quizzitch Live Halloween-edition, and we released it as an episode, so if you want to test your Harry Potter Halloween candy/Lily and James trivia, we highly encourage you to go check out that episode. And then going a little bit further back, Episode 535, “Halloween Extravaganza.” This was in 2021. We talked about whether or not the hosts ever dressed up as a Harry Potter character for Halloween, we invented some of our own wizarding world candy, we discussed which characters would give out the best candy, and we also Potterized some classic Halloween movies, so that was a lot of fun. You could tell we might have been grasping a little bit as with some of the more recent episodes, because we’ve talked about Halloween so much in the Harry Potter series early on in our podcasting days…

Eric: It’s rough.

Micah: … but there’s also Episode 487, “The Scariest Moments in Harry Potter.”

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: Episode 343, which was titled “Fantastic Beasts and the Not 2.” I’m not really sure what that’s a reference to…

Andrew: Me neither.

Micah: … but we talked about some of the key moments that happened on October the 31st in the Harry Potter series; there are quite a few. Going way back to 2008, Episode 161, were there enough traditional Halloween characters in the series, right? Thinking about werewolves and vampires and that sort of thing. And then very, very early on, in 2006 we did Episode 61, which was all about the ghosts in Harry Potter. And there’s probably other episodes – because that’s only just a handful – but a lot of the ones when I was looking back, we were doing Chapter by Chapter, but I’m sure we brought up Halloween. So just look around that October 31 date in the MuggleCast archive.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But those are some good ones, and we’ll put them in the show notes so it’s easy for folks to just pop over and listen.

Eric: I love our little Time-Turner segment keeping on rolling.

Andrew: And a reminder that the MuggleCast merch store recently opened up. MuggleCastMerch.com is where you can grab brand new, original MuggleCast T-shirts, sweaters, hoodies, hats, and glassware. Actually, all four of us brought some merch today. Laura and I are actually twinsies; we both showed up with the “Security consultant” hat. How’s it feel, Laura, to be a security consultant at Hogwarts?

Laura: Honestly, I feel like I have so much power.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: I know, right? I need a clipboard.

Eric: Power to affect change.

Laura: I was fully… and see, now you wearing the same hat as me kind of ruins it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But I was going… at some point during the episode, if I was having a disagreement with someone, I was going to be like, “Look at me. I am the security consultant now.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: We need to get you a clipboard and you’d be all set.

Laura: Honestly, yeah.

Andrew: And then Micah, you’re wearing one of our T-shirts, right?

Micah: I’m wearing my T-shirt, yes. “Choo-choo.”

Andrew: It is the Micah T-shirt, basically. Yeah, it’s got the Hogwarts Express on there. A nice red. Great for the holidays.

Micah: And then the… I like this little MC mic bolt on the side of the sleeve. That’s a really nice touch. And these are very comfortable T-shirts, by the way.

Andrew: Good. And Eric, what did you bring?

Eric: I brought the glassware, the stemless glassware that says “Potions Master,” and I plan to actually pour a Butterbeer in here a little later on and take some photos.

Laura: Ooh.

Andrew: Heyyy.

Eric: But for now, it’s got my La Croix.

Andrew: Excellent. I also have here today the MuggleCast hat, which we’re calling the MuggleCap in the merch store. It has “Est. 2005.” By the way, these hats that Laura and I are wearing, and this MuggleCap, they’re embroidered! I mean, this is nice stuff. It looks really nice.

Eric: It’s really cool. Honestly, there’s a reason it’s taken us this long to get official merch that’s for everybody, as we were waiting for the quality to show up, and here it is.

Andrew: Right, so MuggleCastMerch.com. Great idea as the holiday season approaches, by the way; check out the store and maybe find something you like and send it along to a friend or family member and they can get it for you for the holidays. And once you do receive your merch, listeners, please do tag us, and we’ll be happy to share it on social media. And by purchasing any of these products, you are helping us run the show, so thank you so much, and enjoy this great merchandise.


Main Discussion: Graveyard of Goods


Andrew: All right, it’s time for this year’s Halloween episode: “Harry Potter and the Graveyard of Goods.” Today we’re going to look at various aspects of the Wizarding World that came into existence and then ended up being canceled. We’re going to start with some of the more obvious ones, and then we’ll dip into the more obscure ones that you may have forgotten about or have never heard of before.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So let’s start with one of the biggest of all, the Fantastic Beasts film franchise; we’ve spoken about this a lot over the years. So the original plan was to make five films chronicling Newt and his friends. It was actually announced to be a trilogy when it was first revealed by Warner Bros. and J.K. Rowling, but then Rowling said – and I believe it was right around the time the first movie came out, while she was promoting it – that it would actually be five movies, and everybody was very excited about that. Well, of course, it turns out it ended up being three anyway. We got these three movies between 2016 and 2022, and the series was just surrounded by controversy between Johnny Depp, the bad storytelling… I’m still not over all that boat nonsense.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And J.K. Rowling was trying to separate herself from it by the end, it seemed like. And the box office performance slid with each movie.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, they rehired Steve Kloves to come in and do work on the screenplay for the third film, which, they essentially soft-landed it. I know technically it’s not dead; it’s just “parked,” but it definitely is probably dead, and RIP Fantastic Beasts.

Laura: You know, I will say I was pleasantly surprised by the first Fantastic Beasts movie.

Eric: Ah!

Andrew: Agreed.

Laura: I was one of these people who was skeptical of the series when it was announced, because initially, when it was three movies, I was like, “How are they going to get a three movie, a trilogy story, out of this 41-page book?” And then they turned it into five movies, and I was like, “Uh, how are they going to do that?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And then I saw the first movie and it was so good, and I was like, “Man, I’m so glad to be wrong about this.” And then Crimes of Grindelwald happened. [laughs]

Eric: Well, and I would argue, yes, the first film did not in any way fail to show us how five films could exist.

Laura: Right!

Eric: The second film did that. [laughs] It was like, “Ooh, yikes!” I think the first Fantastic Beasts is probably my favorite Harry Potter film.

Andrew: Oh, wow. I enjoyed number one very much. I really liked number three too. Hated number two. And the series still had potential, in my mind; it was working towards that big Dumbledore/Grindelwald duel, and we were expecting to see Ariana’s death as well, which was a pivotal moment in the Harry Potter series, so it’s just a shame that we didn’t end up getting all that.

Micah: Yeah, I think that the point that you bring up about how the story pivoted also was such a major contributor as to why this film series did not take off the way that they were expecting it to. They did have something with those core four characters in the first film, and like we’re saying, we all really very much enjoyed Fantastic Beasts, the original. But I think they tried to stretch it too much with the Dumbledore and Grindelwald storyline. I think there’s a way that that could have been woven in, but when you move away from Newt as the main character, along with Jacob, Queenie, and Tina, that’s really where it felt like, “Okay, well, we just watched this first film about these four characters, and now all of a sudden we’re going in a completely different direction.”

Eric: Some of them aren’t even in the movie in the third one!

Micah: Right.

Eric: Like, Tina is “on assignment.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So it’s disappointing, though, because this was our first opportunity to really expand the universe in a way, I guess, even though it’s kind of a prequel.

Eric: We brought the show back. We brought the show back because of this movie series.

Micah: That’s true. [laughs]

Eric: We were out of here!

Andrew: This wasn’t my intention, but it’s appropriate that we’re opening with Fantastic Beasts in this discussion since it did, like you said, Eric, bring the show back. [laughs]

Eric: It revived us back from the dead.

Laura: Well, something good came out of it, so…

Andrew: There you go. Episode title: “Something good came out of it.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: For any listeners who don’t know – maybe some newer listeners – we ended MuggleCast back in… what was it, 2013, I believe?

Eric: Episode 269, by the way.

Andrew: And then two weeks later they announced Fantastic Beasts, and we were like, “Oh, okay, I guess Harry Potter and MuggleCast aren’t over after all.”

Laura: Yeah, and I will say Justin in our Discord is calling us out right now. He said, “Brought the show back,” and then he added, “after two weeks.” [laughs]

Andrew: That’s how excited we were to have an excuse to continue podcasting.

Eric: Listen, we needed a break. We needed that two weeks.

Andrew: Yeah, that too. We did need a break. [laughs]

Eric: It was the most restorative two weeks of our lives.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And we haven’t been off for two weeks since.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right. Well, around the holidays. So moving along in our list here, the MinaLima illustrated editions…

Eric: This one still hurts.

Andrew: … and this was actually a pretty recent development. So MinaLima are the creative duo behind much of the visual design for the Wizarding World films – including Fantastic Beasts – and they were planning to create a fully illustrated series of the Harry Potter books. They got up to Book 3. And while I personally didn’t love that they were releasing these editions and the Jim Kay editions at the same time, the MinaLima editions stood on their own. They had the pop-out sections; they had little things you could play with. The books were physically smaller than the Jim Kay illustrated editions, so that was a nice alternative. And then earlier this year, MinaLima announced that Scholastic had not commissioned them to continue after Prisoner of Azkaban, and it came as a shock, because MinaLima has always had a great relationship with the Harry Potter filmmakers, and why would they cancel it mid-series? And we still don’t really have a solid answer as to why. But Scholastic does claim they are going to continue this illustrated series, but MinaLima is so distinctive in their art style; how do you continue that without it seeming like it’s a ripoff?

Eric: You can’t, yeah.

Laura: I mean, I also have to think there’s potential infringement in that, too. I mean, it is such a unique style; I cannot imagine that MinaLima does not have some sort of copyright around their stylistic approach, so…

Eric: I think that’s right.

Andrew: Maybe they’ll send some scary emails to… their lawyers will send some scary emails to Scholastic and scare them off from continuing the series. If I were MinaLima, I wouldn’t want them to continue.

Eric: No, absolutely not, especially if they burned that bridge and didn’t recommission them. I think that this is something that MinaLima would have made the time for if negotiations hadn’t, apparently, broken down.

Andrew: This left fans with a bad taste in our mouths because we were invested in this illustrated edition series, and it’s hard to imagine that MinaLima were the bad guys here. Maybe… my only guess is they were asking for too much money, and Scholastic said no, but I don’t… Scholastic should have paid them.

Eric: We discussed this in a special bonus, I remember, and I remember saying that it’s MinaLima; there’s no “too much” money. There’s no price, really, that you can get them to be this invested in. The way that they make these books is extraordinary, and it does really make you question… I mean, they were one of the few creators that I loved to still support by way of official merchandise, and that’s gone now.

Micah: Well, you could still support them via their shop, right, in London?

Eric: That’s for sure.

Andrew: Yeah, and you can buy all their products online, by the way. MinaLima.com.

Micah: There’s just an authenticity that comes with the illustrated editions that they did because they worked on the Potter films; they worked on the Fantastic Beasts films. There’s nobody like them when it comes to that type of content, so I do agree it would be very strange for somebody else to step in and to continue these editions. I feel like we’re going to probably talk about this with other editions of the Harry Potter books, but they’ve never seemed to be able to complete a set outside of the original seven books.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Honestly, yeah. It’s a good thing that the original seven books are a thing, but every other attempt…

Andrew: Yeah, there have been others, but I think they do them all at once, and normally it’s just cover redesigns. It’s not like…

Eric: Yeah, like the House editions or whatever.

Andrew: The House editions, or the… I’m forgetting his name. Kazu Kibuishi? Released new covers. Those were just paperback, I think.

Eric: Yeah, that was the first Scholastic rebrand, and then they kneecapped him by releasing brand new ones a year or two later. It was ridiculous.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: They didn’t let that one breathe. And whatever they’re selling now, with that charcoal drawing of the kids, I hate it. I can’t stand it.

Andrew: Oh, I don’t like that either. It’s black and white.

Eric: No, it’s so… the books, the world is so rich and vibrant and colorful, any charcoal book cover just is going to fall flat.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, let’s go further back in fandom history: Pottermore classic, [laughs] I’m calling it.

Eric and Laura: Ahh.

Andrew: So Pottermore.com launched in 2011, and it allowed fans to experience the Harry Potter universe interactively with House Sorting quizzes, potion-brewing; you could collect a bunch of stuff. One of the biggest features for us long-time fans was there was exclusive writings by J.K. Rowling, and she was revealing new information about canon and a lot more. It primarily… if I remember how they introduced it at the beginning, it was a place for new readers to have this companion as they read each chapter of the Harry Potter books. You could go really chapter by chapter on Pottermore and get additional information about each chapter, along with beautiful original artwork. It was also the first home for the Harry Potter ebooks, and that was a big deal because they did not… they were kind of late to the ebook train, and they launched with Pottermore in partnership with Sony. It was very exciting, I remember, to see the new chapters and books slowly be rolled out on Pottermore, and it felt to me like a modern spin on the long-promised encyclopedia. By this point, 2011, we were coming to terms with the fact that we wouldn’t probably get an encyclopedia, but then here comes Pottermore. More Potter. Oh my gosh, it’s like the Internet version of an encyclopedia. That’s cool!

Eric: The rollout was exceptional. The hype was real. There was this website placeholder where it was like, “The owls are gathering.” Just the…

Andrew: They teamed up with fansites to tease it, I remember.

Eric: That’s right!

Andrew: MuggleNet had a thing… yeah.

Micah: Weren’t there coordinates that were provided on Google Maps, and then each site had a set of coordinates, and each coordinate revealed a certain letter that spelled out Pottermore?

Andrew: That’s right, yep.

Micah: Which was very cool.

Andrew: I think you could go into Street View and then you would see the letter.

Micah: Right. Exactly, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, so it was an interesting rollout. But then they turned Pottermore basically into a very simple, uninspiring, unoriginal blog in 2016.

Eric: Ugh. This was…

Andrew: All the charm of the original site was stripped. The chapter by chapter area was gone, as was the gorgeous artwork.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: And the worst part about it, which really cheapened it, was they started doing these Buzzfeed-y type articles. “Seven times Ron… this or that.” You know? Just trash. It’s like, “What happened?”

Eric: I don’t understand at all that decision. That’s one of the most perplexing decisions I think I’ve ever seen anyone make, is the decision to make it into a fansite, because there were already still huge fansites. And if you have the ear of the series’ author, you don’t need to be writing speculative articles about “Ooh, Lavender Brown may or may not be dead!”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, presumed dead.

Eric: No! Just tell us or shut up! Ugh, can’t believe it. And they did that with everything; they did that with teasing the new films. And even after the film was come out, they wouldn’t give us a straight answer. It’s like, who’s writing this?

Laura: Yeah, it also feels a little bit like what happened with the author’s original website, because her website back in the day was so good. It was also really interactive; it was very clever. What I loved about the chapter by chapter stuff on Pottermore was it was like living artwork; things moved, cauldrons bubbled. You could see characters sitting there breathing; you could see them moving, and it was really, really cool. And to see them take such an ingenious idea and boil it down to what Eric was talking about is just unfortunate, and it reminds me of what happened, and how we all felt when J.K. Rowling’s original website went away because it was so cool, the original design.

Eric: Well, and with Pottermore, the Sorting quiz! You could actually get Sorted.

Laura: You could get your Patronus too.

Eric: Yeah, well, eventually. I think years later.

Andrew: And I think they still offer those, right? They have those…

Laura: Oh, do they?

Eric: They do, but it’s not as animated. I think it’s like radio buttons on a simple page, but the original… I mean, that’s why I’m okay with being a Hufflepuff, is because I’m a Pottermore Hufflepuff. After taking that whole quiz and then reading that welcome letter, I was like, “Yeah, this is me.” Yeah, I don’t know.

Andrew: So then Pottermore turned into WizardingWorld.com, and actually, we have a new development here. Over the last couple weeks, they have now gotten rid of the Wizarding World branding, and they’re just… if you try to go to WizardingWorld.com now, it redirects to HarryPotter.com, and at the top, it’s the same Wizarding World site, but instead of that branding, it now just says “Harry Potter.”

Eric: Oh no.

Andrew: So it looks like they’re taking a step back from the Wizarding World branding for the overall franchise, too. The Wizarding World branding, it launched in 2018 with a great logo, depicting an open book and wands for pages.

Eric: Love the logo.

Andrew: We were analyzing it, I think. [laughs] And it made sense that they introduced this new branding because they were expanding with Fantastic Beasts, and now as of the last couple weeks, they’re ditching that. And I guess it makes sense as they gear up for the Harry Potter TV series, but I think it’s also an acknowledgement they’re going to stay focused on Harry Potter’s story for the foreseeable future.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. That’s just… I can’t… what are they going to do with Wizarding World Games? Is it going to be Harry Potter Games again?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. Well, right now they’re under the Portkey Games label, right?

Eric: Oh, that’s right.

Andrew: Yeah, but maybe they will just start calling them Harry Potter Games.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So speaking of games, actually, Wizards Unite. Ah! This was developed by Niantic, the creators of the massively successful Pokémon Go. The still very popular Pokémon Go, by the way. I see commercials on TV for Pokémon Go, even in the last week. [laughs] This was released in 2019, and players could act as wizards and witches protecting the wizarding world from the “Calamity.” That’s where the weirdness started.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And you would catch these Confoundables across the Muggle world and… I don’t know. You were saving the world from evil.

Micah: Calamity.

Andrew: From calamity.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But the game just didn’t… we were so excited about this because, like I said, Pokémon Go was so popular, and we thought, “Oh my God, a Harry Potter Pokémon Go. This is the best thing ever.” But it was just… it was darker than Pokémon Go. Pokémon Go worked because you were collecting all these cute creatures, and they have so many waves of Pokémon that have been released over the years.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Wizards Unite just was dark and repetitive, and there was a story.

Eric: Yeah, it’s not like you go across the street and find a Squirtle. You would get Filch instead.

Andrew: Right, who wants to collect Filch?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Death Eater.

Andrew: And it wasn’t even Filch; it was a Confoundable of Filch, which did what?

Eric: I was never clear on that.

Andrew: Me neither.

Eric: I didn’t hate it. I played the game; I liked it.

Andrew: I did too.

Eric: I liked going around, but it was quickly repetitive, and I was not incentivized to keep playing it the way that Pokémon Go has, from time to time, managed to get group events correct and… yeah.

Laura: Wasn’t the first Confoundable – or one of the first ones – you found Hagrid? Do y’all remember that?

Eric: I think that’s right.

Laura: Yeah. I just remember because I was sitting in my living room and all of a sudden Hagrid was just on my screen.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, you’ll never forget that.

Andrew: “Hagrid is in my living room? Whoa.”

Laura: Yeah, well, the whole thing is it’s basically… it’s mimicking the same technology as Pokémon Go, where you’re seeing these figures in your living space if you…

Eric: Yeah, it’s augmented reality.

Laura: Yeah, thank you. That’s the word I was looking for. So Hagrid was just standing on my coffee table?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: As you do.

Andrew: You’re like, “Um, should I call the police?”

Laura: I was like, “Sir, this is a private residence.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Andrew, didn’t you go to a public Wizards Unite event?

Andrew: I did, yeah, in Indianapolis, and you could go around with fellow fans and collect Confoundables. We were saving Indiana all together. So I just loaded up Pokémon Go; I’m catching some Pokémon now. I registered a new Pokémon to my Pokédex. Yeah, it should have been something else. Couldn’t they have focused more on wizarding world creatures instead of catching humans in Wizards Unite? And it felt more tedious than Pokémon Go. So it’s a shame.

Eric: I think the thing that a lot of these iterations get wrong is they’re too dark. They’re unexplainably dark. Heavy on the Death Eaters, heavy on the Acromantulas. And it’s like, “You know, there’s a lot of lightness to be had in Harry Potter. Give us more of that.”

Andrew: There is.

Laura: Honestly, though, I mean, based on the timing… because that was what, 2016? It is kind of surprising they didn’t try to do something that was more aligned with Fantastic Beasts. It just seems like that’s built-in promotional material.

Andrew: Exactly.

Eric: I mean, I think you could catch a Mooncalf, but it wasn’t… you didn’t have your own case or anything.

Micah: Not like catching a Mooncalf in Hogwarts Legacy.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Which you can do.

Laura: You can.

Eric: That magical encounter, yes.

Micah: I mean, you can catch a lot of things. So yeah, maybe they were just punting it down the road a couple years.

Andrew: Yeah. Speaking of mobile games, there’s one I don’t think any of us played, Harry Potter: Magic Awakened, and this was combining a collectible card mechanic game with RPG-style gameplay. It was initially released in China in 2021 before it expanded around the world in 2023, but now it’s going to be closing in select countries, including the US, by the end of 2024.

Eric: Yeah, you’re right. I think that one missed me.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, it wasn’t on any of our radar.

Laura: I know there was another one that was really frustrating because you needed gems or some kind of currency.

Eric: Was that Hogwarts Mystery?

Laura: Yes, Hogwarts Mystery. It was so annoying.

Eric: Hogwarts Mystery… I do agree. It’s possible they adjusted that in the end. It was to keep you coming back, but you literally would get to a point where a few story cards in, you would be out of energy because you encountered something, and it’s like, “Oh, I can’t even take in the story that I’m being given because it’s siphoned off.” So Hogwarts Mystery, though, for what it promised… it was set, I think, in the 1980s, or you’re in Charlie Weasley’s year, so Tonks is around. They eventually did complete all the years of Hogwarts, so that’s actually quite a lot of story. I’m assuming that one’s still available.

Andrew: I think it is.

Eric: But the various mobile games throughout the year, yeah.

Andrew: So let’s look at WizardingWorld.com again. There was something called Wizarding World Gold, and we talked about this a bunch on MuggleCast.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: This was a paid subscription on WizardingWorld.com that was launched in 2019. It offered fans exclusive perks, like early event access, discounts at official stores, collectible pins that you could get at the Cursed Child or Wizarding World theme park. You also got a unique physical book that was personalized to the subscriber; that part was cool. It had your name printed in it.

Eric: Did you receive that?

Andrew: I did, yeah. It was nice. But the subscription didn’t gain any traction, and we all… everybody who had it was like, “What am I paying for exactly here?”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: It was $99 a year, I think, or $79 a year. I meant to look up the price.

Eric: I did not buy it, and I’m so happy that I did not buy it.

Laura: Neither did I.

Micah: Well, Andrew and I took the hit for you all.

Eric: Oh my God. You know when the biggest offer was a discount in the stores. Like, come on, guys. [laughs]

Micah: Well, I think – at least I’ll speak for myself – in order to speak knowledgeably about it, you’d have to get the product and be able to talk about it.

Eric: It’s true, yeah.

Micah: But in a way, it was its own Patreon for Harry Potter fans.

Eric: Except that creator did nothing.

Micah: Well, that’s what I was going to say, is that the biggest challenge that it faced was the fact that it really didn’t offer much, and you can’t do that, and that’s why it fell flat. And I’ve got to imagine it was probably challenging for the folks at Wizarding World Gold to keep coming up with different ideas that they could sell people on, and it didn’t end up working out.

Andrew: Yeah, because what would you do? I don’t even have any ideas for them. And I don’t want to give them any.

Micah: The pins is cool, but you could do the pins outside of Wizarding World Gold. You could make pins available at different Harry Potter locations throughout the world and just sell them as one-offs.

Eric: Yeah, so many stores have that license now. And Micah, it makes sense that you had it because you live in New York, so it’s like, at least you could check out the Cursed Child gift shop, the Harry Potter store eventually. Not sure if the timeline adds up for that.

Micah: I didn’t think it did, but definitely for Cursed Child, because I think when we went to see it, that’s when I got the pin for Wizarding World Gold.

Eric: Oh, that’s right. The special… yeah.

Andrew: Well, the Cursed Child was just mentioned, and another item in our graveyard, the original version of the Harry Potter stage play. Before Cursed Child became the official continuation of Harry’s story, early versions of the stage play were conceptualized as a family drama focused on Harry’s early years living under the stairs at the Dursleys’ house. And I still remember when we found out about this, and we were shocked. Of all the things you’re going to do, you’re going to just follow Harry under the cupboard? That sounds dark and depressing as heck.

Eric: I was excited.

Andrew: It was supposed to explore the emotional challenges that Harry faced before discovering magic. It was kind of like a prequel of sorts. [laughs] And luckily, they changed their minds and we got the Cursed Child, which…

Laura: Luckily?

Andrew: Well, yeah, for all that has been said about the plot, it is a very cool show to see on stage, so I think they ultimately made the right decision.

Laura: Mmkay.

Andrew: [laughs] Laura, you can’t judge it until you’ve seen it!

Eric: Yeah, it’s true.

Laura: And here’s the thing, I would love to see it; I’ve heard that the production is something to behold. But I think it would have been possible for them to tell a better story and still put on a really great production. Maybe not this original story, maybe something else, but…

Andrew: See it to believe it.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know. I think… I feel like one of the big pitfalls that this franchise has encountered again and again is assuming that if they slap “Harry Potter” on something, it’s going to sell and be successful.

Eric: Thank you.

Laura: And we’ve seen that how many times over at this point? Stop doing this. Actually do something good. It’s insulting.

Eric: That’s the word. It was insulting, releasing Harry’s story and claiming that these were the same characters. They don’t read the same, sound the same, say the same things. It just… it was insulting. It played to the lowest common denominator of general audience in many ways.

Andrew: You’re talking about Cursed Child still?

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] This is a rough take.

Laura: I’m just speaking in general.

Micah: I agree with what Laura is saying, though. Anytime you’ve tried to expand the story, at least those that they’ve tasked that with haven’t done a good job. When you look at Fantastic Beasts, when you look at Cursed Child… we’ve said the production of Cursed Child, without question, is fantastic, but the story is horrible.

Eric: I remember you freaking out, Andrew, about Delphi. Like, “Voldemort can have kids?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There you go. I made you laugh.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, that was… yeah. Well, the Bellatrix/Voldemort angle in particular was the shocking…

Eric: Now you’re on board. I had to remind you how bad it was.

Andrew: I still have a soft spot in my heart for Cursed Child. I think it’s enjoyable. I’m willing to forgive the story because of what you witness on stage. [laughs] I think it’s…

Eric: I will say, Scorpius and Albus Severus is the closest thing to a gay couple that we’ve seen realized in official Harry Potter canon.

Andrew: There is that, too.

Laura: Yes.

Eric: And it beats out Dumbledore and Grindelwald, and they had three films to do that.

Andrew: Yeah. We actually do have a new entry for the Cursed Child graveyard section of the graveyard that we’ll get to a little bit later. Let’s return to the illustrated editions. I mentioned the Jim Kay ones; I’m putting a question mark on this gravestone. So Jim Kay’s illustrated editions of the Harry Potter books began with Philosopher’s Stone in 2015, and these books are beautiful. I think I prefer these to the MinaLima editions. There was supposed to be all seven books, but Jim Kay stepped down after Order of the Phoenix; he said it’s a huge burden on him, and we totally understand that. Scholastic and Bloomsbury have said that this series is going to continue; I would have presumed with the person who was assisting Jim Kay on Book 5; there’s somebody else on that book who assisted with some illustrations. But we haven’t heard anything about Half-Blood Prince yet, and we should have by now, because Order of the Phoenix illustrated came out in 2022, so it’s been a solid two years. They were on a two-year cadence, especially with the more recent ones. Neil Packer was the person who was helping Jim Kay on Order of the Phoenix. So we’ll see, but I hope we’re not going to have two incomplete illustrated edition series.

Eric: That would be awful, especially because I think Book 6 is such a joy that it’s going to be a shame not to at least get Book 6. They should have just not took too much on. They should have split the books and made smaller books, like done Book 5 in two parts, like I was suggesting…

Andrew: You’re still on this. You’ve been asking for this forever.

Eric: [laughs] I know, I’m sorry.

Andrew: Stop trying to make split books happen!

Eric: It’s a great opportunity to relive sort of what our thoughts were, past, present, and continuing, so… forgive me. [laughs]

Andrew: No, no, I love flipping through those Jim Kay books. Just so good.

Eric: Yeah, his art of Ginny – I think it’s in Prisoner, because there wasn’t any art of Ginny in Chamber; a travesty – was really good. I love that art.

Micah: The only thing that I could point to here is just that you’re going to lose consistency. And I think when they start talking about doing something that is going to require somebody – or multiple people – to step in to do it for seven books, they really need to think about if that’s something that’s possible. We’re seeing it with MinaLima. We’re seeing it with Jim Kay. We’re going to talk about the anniversary editions that they only did one of.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: They said, “Okay, let’s celebrate ten years of Sorcerer’s Stone. That’s it.” I think it’s a missed opportunity, honestly, for Scholastic and Bloomsbury to not celebrate big milestones for Harry Potter.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: It’s money on the table too.

Micah: There’s that, but I still think there’s an opportunity to celebrate, aside from just saying, “It’s 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and we’re going to give you another book for it.” Collectors love it, for sure, but I just… I don’t feel like they’ve celebrated the books in the way that they could have.

Eric: I’m going to give them a tip: Next time you want to start a seven-book collectible series, start with 7. Start with number 7. Work backwards.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Work your way backwards. It only gets easier, right?

Eric: We have enough Book Ones, and then it gets easier! That’s exactly right.

Andrew: Right, right, yeah. So Micah just mentioned the 10th anniversary editions. There was one that came out for Sorcerer’s Stone. I love this cover! It’s new artwork by Mary Grand-Pré; she did it just for the 10th anniversary edition. The book also included some new material, some bonus material from the author. Micah is modeling off the book right now. It’s Harry staring into the Mirror of Erised; you could see the silhouettes of his parents in the background. Something about this cover, just the colors… look at that artwork in there too. Very nice. So they did the one, and that was it. And I would have loved if Mary Grand-Pré did new covers for each of the books. Maybe that’s asking too much, because she also did do a lot of extra art, not just the chapter art, but did other stuff for posters and whatnot. They could have used all that for new covers. The 10th anniversary is a special one; I wish they saw that series through.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I agree.

Laura: Why do you think they didn’t continue it? Did it just not sell very well? Did Mary Grand-Pré say, “I’m done; I’m out”?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: My understanding – take this with a grain of salt or not – my understanding is a soured relationship. Mary Grand-Pré was a relative unknown when she did the Harry Potter books; as such, she doesn’t own her own art, and so somebody, an art insider, told me that was sort of the situation, is Warner Bros. on one hand… or Scholastic, rather. Nothing to do with WB. But Scholastic would be like, “Make us more art. Come make more art.” She’s like, “Why would I do that? I don’t own my art that I make for Harry Potter.” So I think that was another instance, though, where a soured relationship with the artist not being willing to give up either some creative control or some money or contractual disputes probably soured, and the artist was just like, “Nope, I’m walking away.”

Andrew: Yeah. So here’s something that’s not a book or a game or a movie: a Celebration of Harry Potter at Universal Orlando. This was an official event for fans. Ran from 2014 to 2018, and fans could attend panels – not fan panels, mind you – meet cast members, participate in interactive exhibits; they had a little show floor. Micah and I went once, maybe twice, and it was surprising to see it wasn’t coming back, because it was the one annual Harry Potter event in America, so it was… and you would think Universal would have wanted to continue doing it because it was a great way to bring people to the parks for the Wizarding World lands.

Eric: Yeah, they tried a couple of gatherings like the expos, and then this other convention they tried to do. It just felt very, I think, corporate in the end, because it wasn’t…

Andrew: It did.

Eric: Well, by that point – and none of these are viewed in a vacuum – it’s like, what was the fandom doing at the time? Or what had the fans accomplished? And there were a lot more personable conventions, gatherings, things like Dragon Con and the Chestnut Hill conference, which just had its seventh year. There are so many fan-led conventions and gatherings, and then you look at what WB was going to do, and yeah, it’s in the park, but we were in the park for a fan convention. We rented it out at night in 2010, 2011, 2014, 2017. They couldn’t offer anything the fans themselves hadn’t already done, basically.

Micah: Yeah, I don’t disagree with that. I’m trying to remember what the experience was like outside of Andrew and I getting caught in a thunderstorm at one point, but… [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it was fine. It wasn’t…

Micah: I think there was a performance of some of the Harry Potter music, right? Outside? Do you remember that?

Andrew: I don’t know. I can’t remember. I’m starting to realize why this hasn’t returned. [laughs]

Micah: There was some Q&A with cast that were present.

Andrew: And there were… you could learn how to cast a spell with the wand coordinator from the Harry Potter movies.

Micah: Right, you…

Andrew: But he shows up at the unofficial cons too.

Micah: You rode a broom, from what I remember. They had a lot of props there as well. They had the Goblet of Fire. They had the thing spitting out all of the letters that Harry gets from Dursleys’.

Andrew: Oh, right. They had some props; that was cool.

Micah: Anyway.

Andrew: Yeah, this is… I’m bored talking about this.

Micah: Yeah, let’s move on. [laughs]

Andrew: But there was something else that was supposed to happen last year and didn’t. It was called Wizarding World Festival, and it was announced on Back to Hogwarts Day in 2022. It was supposed to happen summer 2023 somewhere in America. It was going to be this three-day festival featuring “panel discussions, film screenings, special guest appearances, cosplay and trivia competitions, autograph signings, photo opportunities, exclusive merchandise, special announcements, and more magical experiences.” So more going on than a Celebration of Harry Potter. Like I said, it was supposed to happen last year. It never happened. They had a website; a mailing list. “Stay tuned, everybody.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It went nowhere! My only guess is, in light of all the JKR backlash, they thought maybe it wouldn’t be a good idea to do this, because they were also marketing it as sort of this outdoor festival. Would there be people protesting? Would people be trolling the event? Maybe they realized it would be too much trouble to do and too risky, possibly? I don’t know. Then again, if it’s a ticketed event… I don’t get it. It’s just so weird. They announced it in 2022, and then we never heard another peep. So this one, I think, hurts fans the most: an official Harry Potter encyclopedia. It’s very much in the graveyard at this point. For years, the author was promising a comprehensive encyclopedia covering everything about the wizarding world. We were expecting it to include boatloads of new information, reveal old notes, etc. It just would include everything we could have ever dreamed of. And the author said multiple times – on Pottercast, in court, and on her official website…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: … that she was working on this and that it would be released. It never happened. We got Pottermore, like we said earlier; that kind of felt like a Internet version of the encyclopedia, even though it wasn’t what we were fully hoping for in an encyclopedia. Last year, we did get something called the Wizarding World Almanac, which is just a rehashing of information we already knew in an illustrated format, so it was like, “Meh.” We never got what we dreamed of most of all.

Eric: No, this one hurts, because you just know that many, many years of planning went into this wizarding world. Even of the first seven books; by the time Deathly Hallows was published, there were an encyclopedia’s worth of things that could have been organized into some form of what could be the encyclopedia, and it would be fascinating. Stuff like the lineage of Dean Thomas, and not just a screenshot of a picture of the thing, but the actual thoughts behind it and stuff. Really could have been honed, I want to say. But even with Pottermore, the special exclusive writing from J.K. Rowling got lesser and lesser, I think, as the books went on, and that was a real shame, because if the author had committed to writing one new piece per chapter, or for every other chapter, even, there would have been a lot more of that same content that we wanted that belongs in an encyclopedia.

Laura: Do y’all think that had the official encyclopedia happened, do y’all think that it would have included poop mountain?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Absolutely.

Micah: How could it not?

Andrew: Yeah! She’s supposed to tell us everything.

Eric: We know that she’s been waiting to… well, that was the other thing, is that the author’s own writing ability, I think, waned in the years… if you look at the screenplay for Crimes of Grindelwald, you’re like, “Can she even tell the story anymore?” But before that, the Ilvermorny stuff was straight up appropriation. Unapologetic, didn’t consult anybody… the controversy over the years about her writing was growing, and for good reasons. So I don’t know; if we hadn’t gotten the encyclopedia in 2008, 2011, maybe at the latest 2012, we were never going to get it.

Micah: Wasn’t there talk of it being an accessibility issue as well, and that’s why Pottermore was created in the first place? Meaning that presumably most people could access – and I know not every place in the world has Internet access – but the ability for folks to be able to access Pottermore.com is greater than having to go out and buy a $25 encyclopedia.

Eric: I think you’re right.

Andrew: Eh, are you thinking of Cursed Child? Because that’s why they released the script book?

Micah: No, I seem…

Eric: No, I think somebody legitimately… yeah, somebody said that about Pottermore. Somebody official, prominent, said that it was more accessible, but…

Andrew: Well, they were just BS-ing, because this started as a book series. [laughs]

Micah: Well, I’m not agreeing with it; I’m just saying…

Eric: Yeah, yeah. You’re talking about people who somehow have the Harry Potter books, so… [laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Eric: It’s like, “Eh.”

Andrew: I wouldn’t be surprised if we do end up seeing whatever the author had put together at some point down the road still, but the shame of it all is that the people who were once claiming for this now don’t care, and so it won’t receive the excitement that once would have rocked the fandom.

Micah: So it’ll probably happen.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Right, yeah. We’ll see. So another project… and I had forgotten about this, or I didn’t really know about this until doing research for this episode. Electronic Arts – the makers of older Harry Potter video games, The Sims, Sim City, and many more titles, of course – they were working on a Harry Potter MMO. This was in the early 2000s, and it was a massively multiplayer online game. It actually had made it well into the development process; they were at the beta process. They were ready to go with a beta. And we don’t have any other details about this, but somebody who worked on the game commented on it a couple of years ago, which was one of the few if only times we have an official record of it. But that would have been awesome. On the other hand, video games have evolved a lot over the last 20 years, and if they work on something like this now, it’ll be incredible, and hopefully they do.

Laura: They better.

Andrew: The Harry Potter Ultimate Edition DVDs. This is another item in the graveyard. These started strong; they had lavish packaging and behind-the-scenes content for the first four movies when they started being released in 2009, and it was nice to have, “Okay, here’s Sorcerer’s Stone and every extra piece of content we filmed for the movie, the deleted scenes, outtakes, behind-the-scenes looks,” this and that. But then with the later movies, 5-8, the content in them was lacking, right, Eric? I think you feel very strongly about this.

Eric: Yeah, it’s complicated. So they did eventually… the biggest reason to get the Ultimate Editions, apart from the version of the movie with the deleted scenes back in – which is a feature I’ve never liked, but I put up with people who love it – the eight-part documentary, the “Creating the World of Harry Potter.” That was the big deal, was every film was going to get one of those, and every film was going to get an Ultimate Edition, which would be the exclusive home for those. They did eventually actually do that eight-part documentary; it’s on YouTube, but it is also on some of the Blu-ray collections as well, so you can still get… they fulfilled the promise of the documentary, at least, but the Ultimate Editions as we know them I don’t think made it past four, and so it was… and then Blu-ray itself, I think, came out, which made DVD… studios probably weren’t investing in creating DVD boxsets in the same way, and nowadays we’re back to studios not really doing any special features for films, even on their home video release. So the tide turned, I think, in the industry and otherwise, and it ate up what was originally this promising, very colorful boxset.

Andrew: Yeah, hopefully one day they do release the boxset we’ve all waited for. Just throw literally everything into this boxset for all eight movies. Fantastic Beasts, too, sure. Everything. Everything you’ve got. [laughs]

Eric: I mean, as you get to the later films, the deleted scenes weren’t meant to be put back in the film, because they were alternate stuff, right? And they were… in the first movie, it was stuff that was in the books that was just a little extra that they cut for pacing; that makes sense to put back in the movies. But in the later ones, if you look at the deleted scenes from the later films, it really wouldn’t have made sense to put some of them back in. Still, the Ultimate Edition… they could have done something else with it.

Andrew: Yeah. I want to touch on one more item, and this was the most recent, and this is a bit of news: The Cursed Child on Broadway is going to be further shrinking its runtime.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So the touring version of Cursed Child just opened up in Chicago, and it’s going to be coming to DC and LA next year. The Broadway version is currently one part. London still has the two-part version of Cursed Child, but they couldn’t make the… they were trying to make it work on Broadway; I think financially, they were too constrained, so then they shifted to this single-part version. But now they’re going to take the touring version and make that the new Broadway version, so it’s going to go from three and a half hours to under three hours long. It seems worrying that they have to keep shrinking the runtime, especially if you have to cut it an extra half hour?

Eric: What is there to cut? And if there’s that to cut, you should have cut it originally.

Andrew: And I bet they’re going to cut all the gay stuff that they added in by shrinking it down to one part.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Oh no!

Andrew: [laughs] And you know what’s so funny? I got a press release about this the other day. So Sonia Friedman, who produces the show, she said in this statement, “From the very beginning, we and the creative team have challenged ourselves to find new and innovative ways to bring the extraordinary storytelling and stage craft to life.” That’s how you’re introducing this? You’ve always strived to make it shorter? Is that what you’re saying?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I don’t get the spin here. [laughs]

Eric: You’re giving audiences 30 minutes less.

Andrew: Right. For the same price, surely, that it’s been. [laughs]

Laura: Honestly, it’s just corporate. That’s all it is. She’s just speaking in corporate.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, this is all PR’ed to hell, but I just had to laugh when I saw that. “We have always challenged ourselves.” Like, okay?

Laura: What the heck?

Micah: You know, having seen Cursed Child very recently, I’m not sure what they could cut that would… it’s not like being there for three and a half hours you feel it drag at any point, so I’m curious… I can understand maybe when you’re on the road in other cities, but when you’ve been in New York for so long, and you’ve already cut it from two shows down to one, to further cut down the run time, what it suggests to me, maybe, is that this is going off Broadway sooner rather than later.

Andrew: Oh, I fully agree. And you know what I was thinking about, too? So we had on one of the stars of Cursed Child – for the next month or so – Joel Meyers, and he was talking about how physically demanding this show is. I’m imagining him reading this news and being like, “Oh, why couldn’t I have had the three-hour version? Why did I have the three and a half hour?” [laughs] “I could have been working less, damn it!”

Eric: Amazing.

Andrew: Well, I have not seen the single version, single part-version of Cursed Child. I would like to; I’ve heard very good things about it. I’ve heard very good things about the Chicago version, too, so I’m sure people who see this new version on Broadway are going to have just as good of a time, but it is worrying that they keep shrinking it on Broadway. So that is the graveyard of goods. But I do have a question for everybody: As a wise poet likes to sing, “Everything dies, baby; that’s a fact. But maybe everything that dies someday comes back.” So if we could bring one of the above items back, what would it be? Eric?

Eric: Oh, everybody gets… each of us get a reprieve that we get to give?

Andrew: Yes, you have the power to revive something. What would it be?

Eric: Oh, I love this question so much. I think the original Pottermore.com. All of the artwork, the chapters by chapter, more content about and behind the scenes of the books… I really would just want that. It was a moment in time; captured our hearts. I think we were all getting a little anxious about the end of Potter when that came along, and it was so pure and had the best intentions, and never really got completed in the way that I think it was intended, and didn’t stay.

Andrew: Yeah. Laura, how about you?

Laura: That Harry Potter MMO. They better do some online multiplayer gameplay with the next Hogwarts Legacy or I’m going to riot.

Andrew: Micah, how about you?

Micah: I have so much nostalgia for the original JKRowling.com, but I’m a completionist, and I’m going to go with the MinaLima editions.

Andrew: Ooh, good one.

Eric: So they work it out. They keep going.

Micah: There were never any problems. It’s all resolved.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: They’re working on Goblet of Fire.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: So I would say Fantastic Beasts. I really would’ve loved to have seen that series fully through. Number three was fantastic – beasts – and I was left excited about where they were going with it, so I wish it was seen through.


Lynx Line


Andrew: This week’s Lynx Line question was exactly this topic for patrons: If you could bring back one of these, what would it be? And I did a poll. Number one at 28% of the vote was the Fantastic Beasts film series. At 22% was the MinaLima editions. At 19% was the official Harry Potter encyclopedia; I’m actually surprised that made the top three. And then number four was the Jim Kay illustrated editions, and then Pottermore classic. Thanks, everybody who participated in that poll. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and next week will be a Muggle Mail episode, so get your feedback in now. Email anything about Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter or today’s discussion. Again, MuggleCast@gmail.com. No Quizzitch this week; it’ll be back next week. This show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We’re an indie podcast just sharing our love of Harry Potter with fellow fans, so your financial support is of the utmost importance. In fact, listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. And there are three great ways to help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold – it’s better than Wizarding World Gold…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … which gets you access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus installments every month. For even more benefits, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, Lynx Line participation, a physical gift every year, and more. And the newest way to support us – and we’re all showing off something today – is by purchasing some MuggleCast merchandise at MuggleCastMerch.com. Do you think any of your Muggle friends want to have more Harry Potter friends? Then tell them about us, and you can also help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Lastly, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. That does it for this week’s episode. Don’t forget to check out all of those Halloween episodes that we plugged at the top. Happy Halloween, everybody. We’ll see you next time. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: bye.

Transcript #679

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #679, Disorder of the Phoenix (OOTP Chapter 5, The Order of the Phoenix)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: And I’m Micah.

Andrew: Get ready to be mollycoddled, because this week we’re talking about how much info Harry needs to know and why the adults fuss over letting him have it. It’s time for Chapter 5 of Order of the Phoenix, called, easily enough, “Order of the Phoenix.” And joining us this week is friend of the show, fellow Hypable podcaster, Pam! Welcome back, Pam.

Pam Gocobachi: Hi, thanks for having me back.

Andrew: Of course. You coho… you cohost Millennial with Laura and I. You coho…

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: Coho, coho. You cohost What the Hype?! with us.

Micah: Wrong show, wrong show.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Pam is putting in all the podcasting work this week, so we appreciate it while Laura takes the week off.

Eric: Thank you, Pam.

Pam: I’m playing bingo with our whole little podcast family.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, before we jump into Chapter by Chapter, reminder that last week we launched our brand new MuggleCast merch store, available at MuggleCastMerch.com. This is where you can grab brand new, original MuggleCast shirts, hats, hoodies, and more. For example, we have Security Nightmare gear. We have Choo-choo hats and shirts. We have a “We criticize because we care” T-shirt, which I’m a big fan of. We even have a Pickle Pack T-shirt. So there’s lots of great options at MuggleCastMerch.com, and this is an excellent place to support us if you don’t already support us on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Though I will say, patrons are getting an additional merchandise discount that they can use at checkout at MuggleCastMerch.com. So once again, check out MuggleCastMerch.com and pick something up.

Eric: And one other announcement: ‘Tis the season for MuggleCast Secret Santa. This is something that has been long running for the show, particularly on our patrons Facebook group, which you get by being a part of the Patreon community. And many thanks to Brittney B., who all these years has been running it. You guys participating this year, do you think?

Andrew: I think so. I need to check out the… I need to get on the list.

Eric: I’ve gotten some great gifts. The sign-up deadline is December 2, and if anyone has any questions, feel free to message us. But that’s just a courtesy announcement to let you know.

Micah: I actually got these very cool Ravenclaw coasters…

Eric: I like that.

Micah: … from one of our Secret Santas.

Pam: Cute.

Micah: There’s more than one; there’s four of them, so it’s not just like they…

Pam: [laughs] Just one coaster?

Micah: … hauled it off of a local diner and sent it along. But it’s something that I really enjoy doing every year, so I’m glad that it’s back, and thanks to Brittney for pulling it all together again.

Eric: Yeah, and full instructions – because we do do it through Elfster and all that – can be found on a pinned post in the Facebook group.

Micah: You never know what I’m going to pull off the shelf.

Andrew: [laughs] You’ve got a lot on those shelves.

Eric: I don’t ever know.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, speaking of Patreon, this week on bonus MuggleCast, we will celebrate Halloween by coming up with our own potions that we think would solve a specific problem, so we came up with some concoctions. We came up with names for these; at least, I came up with a name for mine.

Eric: Yes, yes. I was pressured to also come up with a name when I saw that you did.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And Pam had one in there.

Pam: Well, only because Andrew put one in. I was like, “Oh, is that what we’re doing?”

Eric: I know!

Andrew: [laughs] Wow, I am such an influencer.

Pam: Monkey see, monkey do over here.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Micah: We all contributed.

Andrew: Okay, excellent. So we’re going to have a fun bonus MuggleCast this week. Again, over on Patreon and also through Apple Podcasts, we release two bonus MuggleCast installments every month.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: So without further ado, time for Chapter by Chapter Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “The Order of the Phoenix.”

Eric: [laughs] We last spoke about this chapter on Episode 230, titled “Trendsetter,” for June 4, 2011, and Episode 437, “The Voldeport.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: What?

Eric: Which I thought I had an idea what that would be, and it’s not what I thought that it was, interestingly enough, the meaning of Voldeport. Anyway, that one was from October 7, 2019. Let’s roll the Time-Turner clip.

Andrew: Pam, get ready for this production value.

Eric: Ooh.

Pam: I’m so excited.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 230.

Micah: Yeah, you…

Andrew: Because we’re getting in deeper into the story here, things are getting a lot darker, so it’s like you expect that we’re going to see some very dark, powerful magic going down in this book.

Micah: Yeah, and you think “weapon,” you think like…

Andrew: A deathstick.

Micah: Yeah, I don’t know.

Andrew: Like a sword or…

Micah: Yeah, something like that. Something that if he physically had it, could do serious damage to other people. But it’s just a prophecy.

Andrew: Right, right. It is a bit misleading.

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 437.

Micah: And I don’t think Sirius really has had the opportunity to mature because he was locked up in Azkaban for 13 years, and he’s very much been a prisoner, despite the fact that he’s not in jail, if we think about everything that he’s been through since Prisoner of Azkaban.

Pat: Yeah, he spent a year just living with Buckbeak. You can’t talk to Buck… well, I mean, you can, but he’s not going to talk back.

[Andrew squawks]

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Micah: That was you, Andrew?

Andrew: Oh, that was me making the noise, but Pat was on there too. I did not realize he was on that long ago.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Micah: I was going to say, June 4, 2011, the allergies were definitely kicking in for you and me, Andrew. [laughs]

Eric: We all have that problem going back ten or more years. Yeah, we all had allergies called puberty.

Andrew: I think it was a nasally voice. We were just trying to be a little more radio-y back in the day. Comes a little more natural now.

Eric: It’s why these look-backs are so fun.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Well, to kick things off, I just want to set the scene by observing how the scene is described, because I think it says a lot about this chapter and the Order of the Phoenix. So the kitchen is in the basement, and there is this haze of pipe smoke hanging in the air like battle fumes. And I love the symbolism here, because the kitchen, which is normally the gathering spot for families – or in this case, the Order – it’s underground. It’s hidden, which I think is emblematic of this hidden operation going on right now. And the battle fumes add to the vibes that this is a war crew; it feels like Harry just entered the war room, the Situation Room.

[Pam laughs]

Eric: Yeah, the whole underground thing reminds me of a bunker. And not only is this war time, you’re right to point out, but there’s going to be a war fought over Harry in this chapter.

Andrew: [laughs] I didn’t think about that.

Pam: Yeah, I was just going to say that the idea of battle fumes is almost like a premonition of what’s to come. So it kind of also gives you the sense that they’ve probably been arguing down there for a while, because everybody’s stuck living under the same roof too. This is definitely not the first time that they’ve butted heads.

Micah: And you could blame Mundungus for the battle that’s about to come, because if he didn’t Disapparate, maybe things wouldn’t have gotten so out of hand.

Eric: Right, Harry would still be on Privet Drive, very, very upset with everyone for not telling him what’s going on.

Andrew: The Battle of Molly versus Sirius.

Eric: Let’s. Get. Into. It.

Micah: It’s on.

Eric: [in an announcer voice] In the left corner…

[Pam laughs]

Micah: We need that… I forget his name, but the boxing announcer.

Pam: Don King, is it? Or something?

Micah: No, not Vince McMahon. [laughs]

Eric: Was that…? Did I say something wrong? [laughs] “Let’s get ready to rumble!”

Andrew: He’s been canceled, hasn’t he?

Eric: That’s not Vince McMahon?

Micah: No, it’s not Vince McMahon.

Eric: Oh, damn. I don’t know anything about boxing. Okay, in the first corner, we have Sirius, Harry’s godfather, who in this chapter, more than any other chapter before, is doing godfatherly things, like telling Harry that he didn’t have it so bad on Privet Drive. It’s kind of funny, after another chapter of Harry’s shouting, to have him be reintroduced to Sirius, and Sirius is like, “Yeah, you didn’t have it that bad. I have it worse than you.” And the fact that Harry doesn’t also flip out with this information… I’m pretty sure Sirius is the only one alive who could survive saying such a thing to Harry right now, in the middle of all of his rage.

Micah: I think he was taken off guard by it.

Andrew: Like, he can’t be angry?

Micah: And Harry is also… he’s had a little time to process; he’s gotten a little bit of that emotion out of him. But I do think Sirius’s comment took him a little bit by surprise.

Eric: Yeah, agreed with that. But Sirius, of course, is referencing his own isolation, and it’s funny to see them go back and forth. Harry is like, “Well, at least you knew what’s going on,” and Sirius is actually… when I say he’s doing godfatherly things, I think he intuits both in general and directly from what Harry says, “At least you know what’s going on,” that Harry has wanted to know and probably been desperate for more information. And so really, the crux of this chapter is Sirius loudly saying, “Well, honestly, Harry, I’m surprised you haven’t been pressing us for more information on Voldemort,” and it lights the fire that the battle smoke comes, so I feel like this is a great assist. I feel like all the ways in which Sirius goes to bat during the argument with Molly is great, but just in general, having that conversation happen here, most people would prefer that it didn’t occur at all, and that’s just not, I think, reasonable, so Sirius has his back.

Micah: He does, and I like the word that you used, the “assist.” He gets Harry’s situation better than most, and I think he uses this moment to refocus him on what’s important, and that’s getting more information about what’s happening with Voldemort. And I just think Sirius, though, given how glum things are at Grimmauld Place, he figures, “Hey, can use a bit of drama around here. Let me stir the pot a little bit.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: “Let me be a little bit like my good friend Albus, and get the drama going.”

Andrew: That is the impression I got as well. Molly is ready to get the kids up to bed, and he’s like, “Uh-uh-uh, I want a little prime time entertainment before everybody goes to bed for the night.” But I do also understand… I think you’re kind of joking, Micah, but I also wouldn’t put that past Sirius, the idea of shaking up his lonely, isolated days here at Grimmauld Place with a little bit of excitement. And he wants his godson to know what’s been going on, and he knows his godson deserves to know.

Eric: Yeah, for sure. Do we think that Sirius actually understands Harry’s situation better than Molly does? Just the whole being excluded thing?

Pam: I think so, because Sirius was isolated for a long time, and we all know that they’ve been in correspondence, and that Harry was genuinely excited to go live with him after the events of Prisoner of Azkaban; that’s obviously before Wormtail escapes and all of that happens. But yeah, I just… I don’t know if the Weasleys, barring Ron and maybe Fred and George… because they see the bars on his window when they go and rescue him, right?

[Eric laughs]

Pam: … know really how bad he has it at the Dursleys’. He’s severely being abused there, maybe not fully physically, but it takes a toll on you to live in a house where people just think you’re a terrible human.

Micah: Yeah. Going off of what you said, Pam, and then also looking back to what we were discussing on Episode 437, Sirius has been a prisoner ever since he committed the crime against Pettigrew. It’s not changed; just the definition of prisoner has changed for him, right? He’s been in Azkaban for a period of time, but once he’s out, he’s really still a prisoner of circumstance. He never really gets to be free.

Eric: Right.

Micah: And this is his one opportunity, because it’s his home, so in a way, it’s a bit of “My house, my rules,” and I think that’s what’s going on here at the start. He wants to feel some level of control.

Pam: I think you could say, honestly, the same for Molly, but she’s coming at it from a different perspective, right? I think that she is coming at it from wanting to keep her family safe, and there’s so much that she cannot control with regards to that. And so they’re both lashing out for the same reason, but the catalyst for both of them is completely different.

Eric: Yeah, Molly has always been the pillar of her family, the heart of her family, and doesn’t… I really doubt she’s felt isolated in many, many, many, many years.

Pam: Yeah. Just think about the clock she has in her kitchen and why that exists, and maybe how many spoons she’s taken off over the years. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, seriously, Sirius’s clock would – for all the years he was in Azkaban – just be the shadows he made friends with on the wall.

Pam: [laughs] Right, exactly.

Andrew: And she’s also obeying Dumbledore’s orders. Dumbledore had asked that they not share a lot of info – or any info – with Harry, and she brings that up in this chapter.

Eric and Pam: Yeah.

Eric: So let’s… okay, so [in an announcer voice] in the other corner…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And by the way, it’s Michael Buffer, not Vince McMahon. In the other corner, Molly, somebody else’s mother, does someone-else’s-mother things, is what I titled this, because she is so extra in this chapter. It’s not just when she gets into it with Sirius. Long term listeners of the show will know that I have problems when anybody attacks my boy, but even before then, she’s interrupting people; she is really just trying to take control of everything. Kind of what you were saying, Pam; she doesn’t… she wants to exert this level of control because she probably feels as powerless as some of the others do. But there’s a moment that I forgot happens in this chapter, which is that Mundungus Fletcher opens his mouth to actually apologize to Harry for ditching him, and I couldn’t believe, as I was rereading this, that it was about to happen.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Dung is like, “I believe I owe you an apology,” and he’s about to actually apologize, but then Molly, from across the room, is like, “Mundungus Fletcher, I told you not to smoke that pipe in here!” And so what could have been a really redemptive moment for Dung is interrupted! And then it’s over. I’m like, “Ahh.”

Andrew: But in hindsight, we also know he ends up being a terrible person…

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: … so I don’t think I want that redemptive moment from him. It’s also his fault for smoking in the house when Molly has already asked him not to.

Eric: Listen…

Andrew: Now, that said, I will play devil’s advocate with Dung. If you’re in the Order of the Phoenix, are you being paid for this role? He needs to make a little bit of money. They all need to make some money. I don’t think it’s fair they should be working in the Order for free.

Pam: It’s volunteer basis.

Andrew: I don’t like that! That’s not right.

[Pam laughs]

Micah: He can’t go outside and smoke; it’s too risky.

Andrew: He needs one of those, like, nicotine patches, I guess. You’re telling me…?

Eric: He needs a smoker’s corner. They need to build in an unplottable…

Andrew: Yeah, there’s not a spell or a potion to help people who have the urge to smoke in the wizarding world?

Micah: It adds to his character.

Andrew: It does.

Eric: Yeah, I agree. His character… I mean, honestly, if 12 Grimmauld Place smells like an old school bowling alley used to smell with all that cigarette…

Micah: Or a casino?

Eric: Yeah. Well, maybe not a casino, but bowling alley is what I think of. You know that smell. I would stay in Grimmauld Place for a summer if it smelled like that, because that was a good smell.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: It was probably really bad for you. But I mean, Dung’s whole thing adds character. I think he’s okay for now, for two more books. It’s nice that he recognizes that he did a bad thing. See, if Mrs. Figg were here, she’d be forcing Dung to apologize. Nobody’s here doing that, and still, he looks at Harry, and he’s like, “I guess I owe you an apology.” And then he says, “I had a business deal,” and yeah, if they’re not getting paid, Andrew… duty calls, business calls, the money… you can’t line the inside of your wallet with hopes and dreams.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Eric: So she’s also, I guess, over-controlling. I can understand there’s this whole thing about dinner and people offer to help, and she’s kind of overboard on like, “Tonks, don’t help; you’ll only make things worse,” and I just think that that’s not very polite.

Micah: No.

Eric: She’s trying to be nice, but also like, “Tonks, don’t get anywhere near this food I’m making because you’ll ruin it.”

Andrew: She had also just asked for some help from anybody, I think…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … and then Tonks tries to help. I mean, this is just erratic behavior. Just ask somebody specific to help you if you don’t want somebody in the room to offer to help you.

Micah: She’s stressed. Some of her behavior isn’t defensible, but it’s understandable. And I’m thinking back to last episode; we talked a little bit about how she lost both of her brothers in the first wizarding war. Now she has Charlie, Bill, and Arthur all in the Order; Arthur is in the cross hairs of the Ministry; Percy is at odds with the family; Fred and George are a handful at the best of times; and Harry has just gone through this attack by Dementors, so throw that all together with the fact that she seems to be the caretaker now of Grimmauld Place, and I think that any one of those things is enough to be stressed about.

Eric: I mean, who asked her to become the caretaker of Grimmauld Place? I mean, well, though and maybe that’s the point. Maybe it’s a conscious emotional labor.

Andrew: Maybe she offers.

Eric: But it’s somebody else’s house. It’s Sirius’s house?

Andrew: Do you want Sirius to cook? I don’t.

Pam: But that’s all she knows how to do. She’s a homemaker, until they give her the warrior moment, right? In Deathly Hallows. But up until then, we know that she’s a homemaker, and so I think she just tries to slip into that role for some semblance of normalcy. And maybe she should have asked, because you also can’t smother or mother adults, right? That’s ridiculous, especially adults that are not your children.

Andrew: Yeah, and I love this point Safir is bringing up in our Discord right now: Remember how cray we all went in lockdowns? Here’s something that happened since the last time we discussed this chapter: We’ve all experienced what lockdowns are like. They are in a lockdown, effectively, so of course some of the people are going to be going crazy, and there’s going to be some fights.

Micah: And the emotional effect that you were talking about, Andrew, we see it come to a head with what happens when she confronts the boggart in the wardrobe, and it’s constantly turning into different members of her family and then Harry.

Pam: Right.

Micah: She’s just very overwhelmed in this moment, and I think she unfairly takes it out on Sirius.

Eric: Well, thank you for… yeah, I mean, look, it’s clear that she’s overwhelmed, and everybody gets overwhelmed sometimes. What’s interesting to me is that the argument that develops is all about what Dumbledore has said probably a little bit ago, which was that, “Don’t tell Harry any more than he needs to know.” And I think it’s Dung who argues – or maybe Lupin – circumstances have changed since then. So there was this old edict from Dumbledore saying, “Don’t tell Harry more than he needs to know,” but none of these adults can get on the same page as one another on what that means, what that entails, and it ends up being… leading to this big argument.

Micah: It does seem strange, though, that there was no prep. They knew Harry eventually was going to be coming to Grimmauld Place. Why did they not discuss this? Why were they not ready to present some kind of information to him? It just seems like…

Pam: That has to be on Dumbledore, though…

Micah: Yes. [laughs]

Pam: … because the only argument anybody can give is that Dumbledore said “Need to know,” but if he doesn’t clarify “Need to know,” then that’s why all the other adults are at odds over what they should and shouldn’t say, and it’s probably because Dumbledore himself doesn’t know at that point. He’s still a little scared about how deep this connection goes with Harry, and he can’t tell anybody that because he’s keeping all his cards close to the chest, so…

Eric: What’s that, Pam? Insufficient orders from Dumbledore?

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Pam: Sure. Is there a button for that?

Andrew: No.

Micah: The Disorder of the Phoenix.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Disorder of the Phoenix?

Eric: Disorder of the Phoenix. [laughs]

Andrew: Episode title.

Eric: There it is.

Micah: You’re welcome.

Eric: Oh my God.

[Ad break]

Eric: So let’s get into this, and I’ve prepared something of a blow by blow, because I do find it interesting – some people might think I’m coming for Molly; I’m not coming for Molly – but each character has different feelings about different aspects of the whole thing. Harry’s need to know, his danger level, whether or not he should be considered of age or responsible enough to know what Voldemort is doing, I think the whole thing’s offensive to even ask whether he needs to know anything about Voldemort. But we know there is a very good reason, ultimately, to keep Harry at least somewhat in the dark, in that it protects the plans that the Order have to defeat Voldemort. So with that in mind, let’s talk this through. So Molly first says that Ron and Hermione are too young for this information and to be in the Order of the Phoenix. Sirius is the one who says, “Who says they have to actually be in the Order? Harry has a right to know,” so Sirius again with the assist on Harry. But then Fred and George, who nobody asked, say, “Wait a minute, why can Harry be told stuff but we can’t? Because we’re of age.” And for me, I’m thinking this could have gone so well for Harry. Fred and George probably would have found out eventually, but now they want to throw their hat in, because they’ve been kept out of the loop as well.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I understand where they’re coming from. Harry is younger than them; Fred and George are adults. They deserve to know this information, especially when Ron and Hermione are going to be hearing this information too.

Eric: Do you think that the fact that Harry will tell Ron and Hermione – and he admits as such – means that anyone older than Ron and Hermione should also be told?

Andrew: Since they are in the house, yeah. I mean, why not? Fred and George are going to find their own way to get this information out of the trio if they’re not sitting there.

Eric: There’s a certain amount of trust that’s been extended to them all. They are inside the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: And that’s what we spoke about last week, I think, on the show. By being within this house, there is an unspoken… there’s a trust among this whole group.

Eric: Agreed. And all Sirius can say… he’s not going to engage with the whole “Of age, not of age” thing. He says, “This is up to your parents, ultimately. But as for Harry…” And this is when Molly goes off the deep end. She says, “‘It’s not down to you to decide what’s good for Harry!’ Her normally kindly face looked dangerous.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: She leans on Dumbledore. She says, “Remember what Dumbledore said: Don’t tell him any more than he needs to know.”

Micah: So this is where I start to side a bit with Sirius in that Sirius is Harry’s guardian, and I think for Molly and for us as readers, we forget that there was a full year where Sirius got to be a godfather to Harry, when James and Lily were still alive. And he is definitely immature at times, but he’s still a good human being, and the shots that she takes at Sirius… I’m trying to think who I could possibly compare it to, but it’s not somebody that we would normally associate with Molly’s character.

Andrew: It’s an interesting dichotomy because it’s the woman who was taking care of Harry over the last four years in certain ways, looking out for him, versus, to your point, Micah, the guy who was his godfather IRL, saw him in person for a full year before James and Lily died. So it’s an interesting debate.

Eric: Yeah, and there’s evidence that Sirius cares for Harry and is a good godfather.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: I mean, he gives him the Firebolt, and he gives him all that advice in the last year.

Andrew: I trust him. Is it partly his tone, maybe? Bringing this up right before Molly is trying to send them up to bed? Could Sirius and Molly have hashed this out in advance of Harry getting back?

Eric: That’s exactly it. They’re cooped up together, business associates. They’re in this underground, smoke-filled den of depravity and dung…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … and they just haven’t… yes, I think that Molly is like, “Oh, God, not this now.” Sirius is the one who’s… I think we’re right in thinking he’s having a bit of fun when he at least brings it up. Like, “Yeah, so Harry, you haven’t asked about what’s up with Voldemort.” I’m sure Molly is thinking anything but that right now, like, “Let’s get these people to bed,” and so I think that that knocks her off her edge, and she’s more likely to blow a gasket or say something offensive.

Pam: I wonder, too, if she has, in the time that they’ve all been cooped up together, noticed that Sirius is a little bit stunted of growth as a result of the fact that he’s been incarcerated for so long. And that’s of no fault of his own, but I just wonder if part of the reason why she seems hesitant to trust his judgment is because she sees how prone he is to being rash or doing things that are potentially dangerous, and so she doesn’t want that to rub off on Harry and for Harry to go and do something stupid. We all know Harry is also prone to being rash and playing the hero and jumping the gun. It’s a very Gryffindor trait, and he has that in spades, so…

Eric: It’s just shocking to see, I guess, so little respect for Harry’s legal guardian.

Pam: Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with that.

Eric: And that’s the interesting thing, is Molly has made her mind up about Sirius possibly long ago. Maybe there’s still remnants of thinking that he was a criminal.

Pam: And wasn’t there…? When Dumbledore said that… when he told Sirius to reveal himself to the Weasleys, wasn’t she a little bit dubious?

Eric: Oh, right.

Pam: So you’re right, maybe part of that prejudice has also not completely rubbed off.

Eric: Well, she just doesn’t know Sirius enough to say “He’s not James.” That is such a… and I know the movies are partially at fault for this whole thing, too, but ultimately, I think it’s way out of line for her… if she is having her feelings – which she is – that she needs to be the one to speak for Harry, she is stepping on the toes of Sirius. She is not listening to Lupin and some of these other people that may have different, rational arguments, and she goes straight for the jugular.

Pam: Yeah, Lupin specifically is so rational that it is surprising, you’re right, that she doesn’t concede at least to somebody like him, because he’s so calm and collected.

Micah: One thing I did want to bring up and just wanted to note, and certainly not something, I don’t think, I would have picked up on the last time we were reading this chapter or the time before that, but – and Pam, I definitely want your thoughts on this – is that aside from Tonks, Molly is the only adult woman that’s present, and she’s clearly the only vocal adult woman, and I got a sense of, or a vibe of, her opinion, her voice being drowned out by all the men in the room. You have Arthur, you have Lupin, you have Sirius. Is there anything to that? I’m thinking back to the episodes you did when you were talking about women in Harry Potter, and maybe the author is trying to make a point here.

Pam: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting you say that because I think that perhaps there is something to that, but also, I think at the detriment to Molly, she’s also written really shrilly and very stereotypically like a mother hen, and so when women are often described as being hysterical or too emotional, the idea behind that is that they’re not in their right mind to be making decisions. And so I think that inadvertently, as a result of her being an emotional character, she actually ends up falling prey to some of these stereotypes of women that are not always accurate, because you can be emotional, but also be making a good point, and I think at the end of the day, she really, truly in her heart believes that she’s trying to make the right decision for Harry, but because she’s so emotional, because she’s leading by smothering everybody else and trying to tell everybody else what to do, you cannot separate that, almost, from the way that she’s trying to mother the entire group of adults that are present.

Eric: She’s also guilty of not being able to see Harry for the person that he is, I think, which is… funnily enough, this is exactly what she accuses Sirius of, but I think that all she sees when she looks at Harry is a young child. She know he’s 15, but she forgets that even three years ago, he saved her daughter’s life alone, and…

Pam: Well, she probably doesn’t want to think about how much he’s had to go through at such a young age.

Eric: The trauma. [laughs]

Pam: Right, not only losing his parents, but even the events of the last year, watching Cedric die, watching Voldemort come back, fighting Voldemort… that’s so much to go through for a 14-year-old.

Eric: Right, but these are his credentials.

Pam: Of course.

Eric: These are literally what everyone else is using to be like, “He needs to know.”

Pam: Yeah, yeah. But I think her way is compartmentalizing that; it’s like, “Okay, that happened. That does not mean we have to put him in a position for that to happen again.”

Eric: Right.

Pam: And I almost kind of feel like that’s why Dumbledore is operating the way that he is, and I think he says that later. He’s like, “I was just trying to protect you. I wanted you to stay a child for a little bit longer,” which is a whole other thing, because you also can’t be so obtuse about what’s actually happening in the real world? So it just doesn’t make sense. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Harry hasn’t been innocent; he’s been abused all these years, to your point.

Pam: Right.

Eric: But so my argument is that Molly can’t see Harry for Harry. The way that she sees that when Sirius looks at Harry, he sees James, she also just sees a child. There’s no half step here that she takes for telling Harry pretty much anything. The only reason he finds out anything is because of the others that go to bat for him.

Micah: Yeah, the whole comparison to James, it makes me wonder how well Molly actually knew James.

Eric: Or Sirius.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: Well, yes. To make that kind of a comment, you need to have some kind of connection to the person that you’re referencing here, and that’s why it falls flat for me. The other piece which comes up during this conversation, which was totally out of line, was her blaming him for being in Azkaban. [laughs]

Andrew: I know. Yeah, not his fault. [laughs]

Eric: “You haven’t exactly been there for Harry, have you?”

Andrew: She’s grasping for straws.

Micah: She’s lost her cool.

Andrew: Yeah. And one more point about how Molly gets depicted in the series and in this chapter in particular: Pam, you described her as being shrill and controlling, loud. Our first introduction – and Harry’s first introduction – to a Howler is from Mrs. Weasley.

Eric: Oh. [laughs]

Pam: Oh my goodness.

Andrew: Which I think also says a lot about how Rowling was trying to depict Molly across this series.

Eric: Forgot about that.

Andrew: She’s the one sending off the Howler and screaming at Harry in front of everybody, and Ron.

Eric: She’s very Dumbledore-esque, isn’t she?

Pam: Well, even, I guess, if we’re going by even movie-isms, the whole “Where have you been?” That’s also very… I feel like that is Molly in a nutshell for so many people, even if she is more than that.

Eric: Yeah. So Arthur Weasley… we’re getting on to some of these peripheral adults who are here. Arthur Weasley does, I think, the coolest thing he could have done – I want to see this depicted somewhere – where in the middle of it all, Molly asks Arthur for support, and he takes his glasses off and just starts to wipe them down, and he’s not responding.

Andrew: He’s exhausted.

Eric: And everyone else just has to wait, and then he puts them back on.

Pam: He’s probably just trying to figure out how he’s going to… what his next move is going to be.

Andrew: Dramatic pause.

Pam: He’s like, “How do I get out of this without having to sleep on the couch later?” [laughs]

Andrew: Happy wife, happy life.

[Micah and Pam laugh]

Eric: You can always do that! Listeners at home, honestly. If you ever need just an extra second to think, take your glasses off and make a show of wiping them down. You’ll get an extra ten seconds.

Pam: I’m going to do what with my invisible glasses and see if it flies the same way.

Eric: Aw, Pam. Join the club.

[Pam laughs]

Micah: Going back to the conversation earlier, could you look at this as another stereotypical moment of the wife having to defer to the husband, to have to support…? Because his voice has impact; his voice has influence. She can’t stand on her own in this moment.

Eric: I think in any partnership, it’s a great check and balance to have your partner be able to be there. And I don’t think Arthur is a bad husband. I don’t think he’s a bad partner.

Micah: No.

Eric: I think normally he would be there to step in and say, “Your mother’s right, boys. Get upstairs.” That’s his normal track. The fact that he doesn’t do that and actually does not side with Molly should show her that she’s gone too far, that she’s too out of the opinion of it. After Arthur says his thing, she’s like, “Well, I’m going to be outvoted.” But yeah, props to Arthur. And I think the interesting thing for me here is that what Molly is specifically arguing against in these moments is giving Harry a blank check to ask any questions he might have. She’s not saying, “Don’t tell him this one thing”; she’s saying, “Don’t let him ask questions.” And this specific nuance here really rubs me the wrong way, because not being able to at least ask a question seems a little, I don’t know, authoritarian. Because ultimately, not letting him ask the question…

Andrew: She’s trying to protect him. But this gets back to a…

Pam: But they could just say, “You can’t know that. Next question.”

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Like what Dumbledore said at the end of Book 1: “Alas, the first question you asked me, I cannot tell you.” But at least entertain the forum for Harry to ask some things, anything that comes to mind.

Andrew: But this gets back to a point I raised a few minutes ago: Why didn’t they prepare better in advance? Yeah, things are hectic and busy. Why not say, “Hey, Harry is coming tomorrow. Why don’t we say x, y, and z to him?” And come with some opening remarks, and then if Harry wants to ask any other questions, he can. But they had to have known he would want to ask questions. Of course he’s going to.

Eric: It’s a great point. And if you’re at war, which these people are, and you cross into a new territory and meet up with your fellow soldiers, you get briefed. You get briefed on the situation, and where’s Harry’s brief, essentially? He needs that, and that’s what Sirius is fighting to give him. Lupin argues that if Harry is going to get facts, he should get them from them. I agree with that; you can’t trust a game of telephone to get you all the info you need. And pretty much the only thing I can say for Molly is she is actually right that Dumbledore does not want Harry to know certain things, but he did not specify. And here’s another example of how Dumbledore not confiding in his closest allies about something relating to Harry, ultimately, is dangerous for everybody, because if he had just said, “Here’s where the line is; especially now that he’s coming, here’s where the line is,” his allies, these adults would have been a lot more prepared to handle the Harry situation, and therefore the rest of the children that are living at Grimmauld Place.

Andrew: So quick question for everybody – maybe not so quick – whose side would James and Lily be on here?

Eric: I love this.

Andrew: I mean, this is a big question, I think. But I think one reason this chapter is so interesting is because you can see the perspective of both sides. I want to say… well, first I think James has to be on… maybe the answer is James is on Sirius’s side and Lily is on Molly’s side. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God.

[Pam laughs]

Andrew: No, I think Lily would trust James… sorry. “He’s not James, Sirius!” I think Lily would trust Harry to know a bunch of information about what’s going on.

Pam: This is assuming they lived, but Voldemort is still trying to kill Harry, right? Is that…? Because I need some parameters here. [laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, if Lily and James are also equally in the dark about why Dumbledore doesn’t want to tell him everything, they would probably advocate for…

Pam: No, I think that they would have had to know. I assume that if they were to be alive, then they would know everything. Yeah, I think that for different… I agree; I think that James would probably be on the side of telling Harry more, and I think Lily would probably say, “Listen, we were too young when we entered this war, and I don’t want that for our kid.” But they’d probably come to some happy medium that ends up being like what he’s told in the book.

Eric: It’s an interesting question about which of his parents would side with who in this room, because this argument exists as a result of Harry not having parents, so these people are trying to play at being Harry’s parents. But the other aspect is if Jily… [laughs] Jily and Lames were alive, they would be saying, “We’ll just protect Harry. We don’t need to tell him everything; we’ll just keep him safe.”

Pam: Yeah, but I think that they would also know what parts of themselves their son inherited, and I think that the idea of Harry being rash like Sirius, like James was – what we know of James – I think that they would have known that they would have had to tell him something in an effort to get him to cool his jets a bit while he’s over at Hogwarts, because they can’t protect him there.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Micah, any thoughts?

Micah: It is a good question because it’s so hard to answer. Like Pam was saying, you need some parameters around it, because if I’m imagining James and Lily just kind of hovering over the kitchen in the smoke that’s coming from Mundungus’s pipe…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … observing all that’s going on, I do think that Lily would, in part, side with Molly from a protective standpoint, but I also think she would want to make sure that her son was armed with the most information possible, so I could see her also leaning in the direction of Sirius. It’s also hard because we don’t really know them as characters.

Andrew: Yeah. Brave, fighting the greater good, Gryffindors.

Eric: Yeah, I think of them as Aurors, although that’s probably not true. It’s just the fact that they thrice defied Voldemort; they’ve gone toe to toe with Voldemort as much as possible. The topic of what Voldemort is up to and what he’s doing would have been extremely important for James and Lily to know at all times, and therefore, if they were somehow still alive and still on the run from Voldemort, you’d better bet your butt that they would tell Harry everything.

Micah: Yeah, that’s what makes me think that they wouldn’t necessarily disagree with Molly’s intentions, but I think they would ultimately side with Harry getting more information.

Eric: Well, yeah, I don’t disagree with Molly’s intentions either, but yeah, the methods is just wild. So we have more to come after a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Andrew: We also wanted to look at the uphill struggle against willful ignorance in the wizarding world right now. And Sirius tells Harry that it was great that they had so quickly a heads up when Voldemort returned, and it gave the Order an advantage. We’ve got to give props to Dumbledore here.

Eric: Ugh.

Andrew: Sirius said it was only because Harry went to Dumbledore, and then Dumbledore got the band back together so quick, that they were able to start moving on fighting back against Voldemort. So give Dumbledore some props, okay?

Eric: It’s funny because Harry is like, “So what did that do?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And it’s true that he has not yet seen a direct result. He hasn’t himself witnessed… Harry has not witnessed the benefits of his own actions, telling Dumbledore. He’s like, “Yeah, you got a headquarters, but you’re not telling me any information, so how do I know you even have any information to give?” is kind of a fun angle. But yeah, the Order is in a bad spot. Sirius talks about how he himself is still a wanted man; he’s not able to go out. They can’t hand out leaflets. They can’t… the position that the Ministry has taken means they can’t openly recruit for the Order of the Phoenix. This is the struggle against ignorance. It’s literally like the whole world doesn’t know and isn’t being told by the powers that be that Voldemort is back, and that is such a disadvantage to everyone who’s not already in the Order.

Micah: Doesn’t Little Hangleton have CCTV?

Andrew: Probably.

Micah: Is that not something that Dumbledore could bring as evidence to Fudge and say, “Hey, check out this event in the graveyard that happened”? [laughs]

Eric: If anywhere in Little Hangleton had CCTV, it’s a graveyard, because they’re very secure.

Micah: See?

Andrew: I don’t think there’s security cameras in graveyards. That seems like an invasion.

Eric: There is, because they have to deter grave robbers.

Andrew: Maybe. I don’t know; I have a hard time picturing that.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Okay, that’s an aside. We’ll do some research later. But yeah, there’s a time to credit Dumbledore a little later, but here, let’s talk about Fudge. He’s keeping the public in the dark. Lupin says that being unaware makes the public much easier targets for Death Eaters also, especially on the point of the Imperius Curse. This is something that I find very interesting, because the Death Eaters, we know, are not afraid to use the Unforgivable Curses, but with Imperio specifically, you’re so much more susceptible if you’re not even aware that somebody’s going to come at you and just cast it. So there’s an example of how Fudge’s actions and his fears and everything he’s doing just make people victims; people are so innocent and so susceptible because of this choice that their Minister has made.

Andrew: And all in part because of Fudge’s ego. He hates that Dumbledore – he thinks – wanted his position as top dog at the Ministry. I love the politics of all this, too, as we learn in this chapter.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. It’s well developed. You could hate the situation but be like, “This is really interesting.” Fudge is also leaning on the Daily Prophet; he’s suppressing whatever stories there would be; he’s raising politically motivated discourse; he’s encouraging everybody to discredit Harry and Dumbledore, which is what Hermione was saying in the previous chapter. And so even if they do hear what a member of the Order of the Phoenix were to tell them, “Voldemort’s back,” they’re less inclined to believe it. And this is the part where Fudge crosses over, in my mind, from unconscionable to completely insanely unforgivable, because that’s really the issue. If you have really allowed for skepticism on this part, you are so much worse than somebody who’s just ignorant, because you’re causing so much… now there’s so much… they’re going to have to work so much harder to get anyone to believe them. The truth, by the way.

Andrew: Right, right. And this is something that would have been interesting to see, too, post-Book 7. How does a new Ministry of Magic regain the trust of its citizens when it’s been broken so far?

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Not to mention the Daily Prophet. Totally in the gutter in terms of its reputation.

Eric: Is there any fantasy series with good news media? Like, honestly.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: I need to escape into a book about good journalism. [laughs]

Micah: And I like the fact that you framed this as an uphill battle. It really paints the picture, the conversation that happens here, just how much the Order is up against. It’s not just Voldemort; it’s Fudge and the Ministry, it’s the Daily Prophet, and it’s meant to convey to the reader that, “Look, this is the adult side of what’s happening now in the wizarding world.” Because for so long, we were just so focused on what was going on at Hogwarts with Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Now it’s… we often talk about how the world opens up as these books go on, and this is another example of that.

Eric: Well, that’s a great point. Because again, yeah, like you’re saying, this might be the first time we really get a sense of what it’s like to be an adult in the wizarding world. When all that stuff with the Chamber of Secrets was happening and they were like, “Oh yeah, the Board of Governors wants to close Hogwarts,” you’re like, “Oh, that must be what it’s like to be an adult in the wizarding world and be a school administrator.” But everybody else that’s an adult is having to go to work, worry about their own safety, worrying about their family, worrying about their reputation, having to sneak around, provide misinformation so that their allies can succeed… being an adult right now sucks harder than being a Hogwarts student, and that’s saying something. It also really draws to light how much the Order members are all kind of misfits. I mentioned earlier, but Sirius is a wanted man; he can’t leave his house. Lupin has a funny line about not being invited to dinner places because of his werewolf status. [laughs]

Andrew: Aww. That’s not funny; that’s sad, Eric.

Eric: Somebody get this man an invite to your dinner party; the raw steak will be delicious. And unfortunately, I think what they’re doing is apologizing in advance for why they haven’t made more gains. Harry is like, “What do you have to show me?” Honestly, not much.

Andrew: Yeah. But here’s another plus one for Dumbledore, because it’s noted here that Dumbledore is the only one who’s been pounding the alarm and sticking his head out about Voldemort being back. No other Order member is able to do this. It’s because…

Micah: No other Order member is in a position to do that.

Eric: I was going to say, it’s because it’s him, isn’t it? It’s him. It’s always him.

Andrew: Yes. Sure, but you’ve still got to credit Big D. Dumbledore is the only one who’s able and willing. He doesn’t have to stick his head out; he could get thrown in prison. That is stated in this chapter. He can’t push it too much because he could get thrown into Azkaban, and then Voldemort would have an easier time rising.

Pam: Yeah, and I love that line Charlie has where he says, “Dumbledore doesn’t care as long as he gets to stay on the Chocolate Frog Cards.”

[Eric and Pam laugh]

Andrew: That’s great.

Pam: That’s so good.

Andrew: And Dumbledore told him that, too.

Pam: I mean, obviously he wants to make sure he’s around, yeah, but it’s like… that’s such a great way to diffuse the worry that I’m sure a lot of them have about him being demoted or losing some of these big accolades that are… they’re all being stripped to discredit him, to your point.

Eric: It’s honestly…

Andrew: It’s so Dumbledore.

Pam: Yeah, it is. [laughs]

Eric: It’s pretty badass. The reason we’re not having a “Where’s Dumbledore?” segment this week is because he just stuck his neck out bigly for the Wizengamot. And you can imagine that that statement would have just been amazing to witness, Dumbledore coming out to his fellow Wizengamot members and being like, “I have an announcement. Voldemort is back.” And then just being… trying to shut him down and him keep going and just get the information out.

Micah: Yeah. The hard part right now is there’s not a whole lot of evidence for Dumbledore to present. It’s really just his word. What else are you going to put in front of the Wizengamot or Fudge to prove otherwise?

Andrew: Harry. Harry James Potter.

Micah: Yeah, not going to really do too much there, in my opinion.

[Andrew laughs]

Pam: Just give him some Veritaserum and call it a day.

Andrew: Yes, exactly!

[Pam laughs]

Eric: So Molly… ultimately, the only control she was able to exert in the end was putting Ginny to bed, which is a darn shame. But she comes back just as they’re mentioning the prophecy, and says, “Well, that’s enough. You’ve told him far enough already.” And I guess that’s where we have to leave things for this chapter, so that was exciting.


Odds & Ends


Eric: But we do have a number of odds and ends to get into.

Andrew: There was an Evanesco appearance in this chapter from Bill; it’s when he has some papers out, some scrolls, and Mrs. Weasley doesn’t want the kids to see them, so he Evanescos them away. And the reason I bring this up is because they just get moved somewhere else; they’re not disintegrated and thrown into a fire, never to be seen again. And yet, we all can never forget that day when Pottermore/Wizarding World on Twitter said, “Hey, by the way, everybody, I know nobody was asking, but Evanesco is great for when a student pees on the floor and it needs to be cleaned up.” I’m paraphrasing, but I was like, “Wait, that’s how Evanesco is used in this chapter; it’s not how it’s been described on social media by official Wizarding World accounts.”

Eric: It’s not all it can do. [laughs]

Andrew: It’s a very versatile spell.

Eric: I think what it was was before Hogwarts had indoor plumbing – because that was only invented at a certain year – and it’s like, “Oh, before that, the wizard just used the Vanishing sp…” It’s like, “Oh, God.” But thank you, Andrew, as always, for keeping right on top of any reference to…

Andrew: I keep an eye on the number 7, the number 12, and Evanesco.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Those are my three lanes.

Micah: Very important. Two things that caught my eye – one was just a warmhearted moment – Crookshanks balling up on Sirius’s lap, and I just thought, “They’ve been buddies since Prisoner of Azkaban.” Because I was thinking to myself, “Well, wait, why is Crookshanks being so nice to Sirius?” And then I remembered back, their communication in Book 3.

Eric: They’re buddies.

Micah: And then we have a foreshadow alert.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Micah: When Fred and George are using magic to try and help Molly out with dinner, they end up dropping a knife, and the knife drops right where Sirius’s right hand was previously.

Andrew and Eric: Ooh.

Andrew: Good one.

Micah: Now, can I ask a question on this, though? If Molly hadn’t yelled at them, do we think everything would have flown all over the place?

Andrew: Ehh, that probably wasn’t helpful.

Eric: They’ve got it under control.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, they got it… no, because the cauldron, yes, it sloshes a little bit, but it stops at the end of the table. They’re good. They’re good.

Micah: Poor Sirius.

Andrew: I want to throw out another foreshadow alert, too: Dung actually asks Sirius about a 15th century solid silver goblet, and to me, this is foreshadowing Dung ransacking the place after Sirius Black dies. Curious about what he’s got on hand there.

Eric: [laughs] Also, we’re always looking for evidence of the Horcrux inside Harry that negatively affects his mood, and I found what I think is my favorite one that we’ve ever covered before, which is when Ron and Hermione are arguing to be included, Ron says, “Harry’ll tell me and Hermione everything you say anyway! Won’t – won’t you?’ he added uncertainly.” And then it says – douche Harry is about to come out – it says, “For a split second, Harry considered telling Ron that he wouldn’t tell him a single word, that he could try a taste of being kept in the dark and see how he liked it. But the nasty impulse vanished as they looked at each other.” And then he says, “‘Course I will,” and Ron and Hermione both beamed. I think they’re relieved. So this moment of Harry’s instinct… his mood is rotten; he’s still pissed at them, and he’s inclined to actually tell Ron, “No, I’m not telling you anything.” But then he looks at his friends, and what’s happening is the same thing that happened with the Dementors earlier in this book: He’s overcome with love. Even in the most dire circumstances, it bursts out of him. He can cast a whole Patronus; it drives out this influence from Voldemort. And we know that when Voldemort tries to take possession of Harry at the end of this book, it’s that love that drives Voldemort out. So the closeness, the quickness with which Harry looks at Ron, and all of a sudden this nasty crap evaporates, and he tells Ron, “Of course I’ll tell you everything.” Wow. I think that’s an example of the Horcrux’s influence on Harry.

Andrew: “The weapon we have is love!” to quote the wizard wrock song by… who was that? Harry and the Potters.

Eric: Harry and the Potters.


Lynx Line


Eric: So before we wrap the chapter, we have a Lynx Line question this week, which is… I’m very fond of these answers. And we asked the question: The Order of the Phoenix is made up of teachers, parents, criminals, Aurors, and more. But when we think about the group and our favorite members, what characters stick out from the Potter series that haven’t joined the Order – at least as of where we’re reading now in Book 5 – and how would the series be different if they had joined the Order? So what characters aren’t in the Order but should be? And we heard from Leah Jamison, who says,

“Firenze. It’s always a good idea to include different perspectives, and having more non-human beings like centaurs would bring a certain… wisdom? to the group’s decisions. Plus, he’s been ‘othered’ from the herd at Hogwarts, so he might need somewhere to go.”

Andrew: Breann said,

“Professor Flitwick. I feel like he is such an under-appreciated character who is pretty badass with charms.”

And a few other listeners said Flitwick as well. For example, Barry said,

“Former dueling champion is exactly who you need. Also, Ollivander would be a great resource, even if he feels a little chaotic neutral as a member.”

Micah: Monet said,

“Oliver Wood! They need some new grad/young blood on the team! He’s strategic, nimble, and athletic.”

[Eric laughs]

“Plus, since he’s playing professional Quidditch, he can make oh-so-important alliances cross-country and internationally and travel without suspicion.”

Eric: Oh, I like that last part. Travel without suspicion.

Andrew: Mev said, “Neville’s grandmother. She is badass.”

Eric: Oh, that’s such a good one.

Pam: Do you think she would agree, though? I don’t know. I go back and forth on whether or not she would.

Andrew: [in an old lady voice] “Oh, I want no part of this. Let me stay at home. I’m too old for this, for Dumbledore’s latest antics.”

[Micah laughs]

Pam: “My son and his wife are at St. Mungo’s. I’ve had enough.” [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. I think… yeah, you’ve solved it, Pam, why Dumbledore hasn’t invited her.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “She’s been through too much.”

Eric: I bet she would have words with Dumbledore if he was like, “Do you want to join my Order?” And she’s like, “Your cause…”

Pam: “I’ll show up for the final battle, but not a second before.”

Eric: Oh, man.

[Andrew and Pam laugh]

Andrew: Well, how about this lady? Rachel said,

“As awesome as it would be for the owners of Honeydukes to drop in with snacks, my answer is Madame Hooch. Seriously, what happened to her? She always seems so shrewd. She’d be a good addition.”

Eric: Jennifer says,

“I think for the purposes of camaraderie through the wizarding world, we should include the goblins. They have control of Gringotts bank. They know all its secrets. Bring the goblins and humans together to help fight Voldemort.”

I’ve got to say, this is reminding me – between Firenze, goblins, all these other suggestions – that for somebody who preaches international magical cooperation, and read that to be multi-species cooperation, Dumbledore’s Order of the Phoenix is not very diverse in species.

Andrew: No. I really like this one from Kuroichloe:

“Ernie from the Knight Bus! I feel like Dumbledore would find value in a bus driver who sees and hears all kinds of things while out on his route, just like how Mundungus Fletcher is a good ally in the underground scenes. Plus, free transportation for Order members!”

Andrew: [laughs] That’s a really funny one.

Eric: From Steph:

“Wilkie Twycross (the Apparition instructor who works at the Department of Magical Transportation). Imagine how much easier Harry’s trip from Privet Drive to the Burrow would have been with an insider on board, and he’s such a wet blanket that no one would suspect him to be part of the Order, so he’d fly under the radar (both literally and figuratively).”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Thank you, patrons, for submitting those answers. We are really liking this new segment that we have over on our Patreon. Stay tuned for more questions and answers in the weeks and months ahead.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: And now it’s time for MVP of the Week, and this week’s theme, Eric?

Eric: … is most outrageous, over the top thing that Molly Weasley does in this chapter.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to when she says, “He’s not James, Sirius!” That was a low blow.

Eric: Yeah, Sirius didn’t say he was. Hello.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Okay, I think it’s still the interrupting Dung’s apology, because darn it, I would have wanted to hear, or read that, so… [laughs] Just to tell him off for smoking. Come on.

Micah: I am actually going to let Pam go first here, because I am going to plus one what she says.

Pam: Okay.

Eric: Good strategy, Micah.

Pam: [laughs] Mine is throwing Sirius’s wrongful incarceration right back in his face, because that was ridiculous.

Micah: Yep, that was probably the worst thing she said to him.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a lot of bad things, but yeah, I’ll agree.

Andrew: Listeners, if you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We also have the contact form on MuggleCast.com, and I think we’re going to have a Muggle Mail episode in the next couple of weeks.

Eric: In two weeks.

Andrew: Two weeks’ time. Next week, as we approach Halloween, we’re going to have a special episode for everybody that we are calling the Wizarding World g;;raveyard, but we’re not looking at canon; we’re going to look at the various parts of the Harry Potter franchise that have been buried by Warner Bros. and Rowling over the years.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Things like Pottermore, Wizards Unite. I’m actually wearing a Wizards Unite T-shirt right now. And actually, I don’t know if you three saw, but just the other day they put something else in the graveyard, but I’m going to leave it right there as a teaser for next week.

Eric: What is it? Oh, no!

Andrew: You’re just going to have to find out. Just going to have to peek into next week’s doc. [laughs]

Eric: Fair enough.

Andrew: We’ve got a good list already going in that doc, which is also another Patreon benefit. You get access to our planning docs.


Quizzitch


Andrew: So now it is time for everybody’s favorite game show, one that will never be buried, Quizzitch!

Eric: Aww.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question was: In honor of the portrait of Walburga Black, what famous artist and sculptor was given an exclusive license to use a material known as blackest black? This really happened; you can Google it. The correct answer was Anish Kapoor, and 32% of people said they didn’t look this up. He is definitely a name in the art world. So last week’s winners were as follows: A Ravenclaw in Maryland; Andrew’s Elbow… oh, that was nice of your elbow, Andrew, to submit a Quizzitch answer.

Andrew: Okay…

Eric: … Crookshanks’s squashed and fried eggy face after Ron hit it with a frying pan he was using to make breakfast; Distant relative Vantablack Black… [laughs] That’s actually an Anish Kapoor reference. Very clever. Elizabeth K.; I am studying art in college and we talked about the feud over it today so I was very happy when I heard the Quizzitch question… wow, what are the odds of that? Jim Dale is my husband; Loeblack Slow, Black, Crow, Black, Fishing Boat Bobbing Sea… I don’t know what that’s a reference to. Me checking Temu’s “new arrivals” every day for Laura’s Pants…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … Patronus Seeker; PUFF DOWN UNDER; Sirius in Tibet (Max that); and The wand that Neville left in his back pocket that made his bottom so long. And here is next week’s question: Since there was a lot of talk in this chapter about being of age, please – Quizzitch entrance – name a nation within the United Kingdom where the legal voting age is 16 years. That’s kind of early, kind of young to be voting.

Micah: I thought that you were doing this in celebration of the upcoming Election Day here in the United States.

Eric: I don’t want to think about the Election Day. Nope, not thinking about it.

Micah: Reminding people to register to vote, and to go out and vote.

Eric: You should register to vote.

Andrew: IWillVote.com, my favorite website.

Eric: In the United States, you have to be 18 years of age to vote, but what nations can you be 16 within the United Kingdom? That’s a good reference, Micah. It’s definitely worthwhile. Everybody, check your voter registration status. And submit your Quizzitch answers to us on the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav if you’re already on our website, looking at transcripts, checking out must listens, or any other thing that you would do.

Andrew: And this show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We are an independent podcast, and because of that, your financial support is very important. In fact, it’s the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. We’ve got three great ways you can help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold. You get ad-free and early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. we’re going to be recording a brand new one after today’s episode. For even more benefits, hit up Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get the Lynx Line, the livestreams, a personal video message from one of the four of us, and a whole lot more. Also, number three best way to support us: Visit MuggleCastMerch.com for all your brand new merchandise. Don’t go to Temu for Laura’s pants; come to MuggleCastMerch.com for Laura’s pants. I don’t even think Pam gets this reference, and she’s probably very concerned about what we’re talking about right now.

Eric: Don’t worry, Pam, it’s…

Pam: Yeah, what are you guys doing with Laura’s pants? [laughs]

Eric: Sending them back to her.

Andrew: We’re going to produce them in mass.

Micah: Returning them.

[Everyone laughs]

Pam: Okay. [laughs]

Andrew: Don’t worry; she’s cool with this. It’s an old joke.

Pam: All right, all right, got it.

Andrew: If you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and we would love a five star review in your favorite podcast app. Pam, thanks again for joining us on today’s episode.

Pam: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Andrew: We’ll catch you on What the Hype?! and Millennial every week too. Well, thanks, everybody, for listening once again. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Pam: And I’m Pamela.

Andrew: Bye, everybody!

Eric, Micah, and Pam: Bye.

Transcript #678

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #678, Sugar Daddy Harry (OOTP Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, come join us as we analyze Order of the Phoenix Chapter 4, “Number 12 Grimmauld Place,” but be sure to tiptoe down the hall quietly, because we don’t want to wake up Walburga Black. I don’t know if I’ve ever pronounced her name out loud before. Walburga? Did I get that right?

Laura: Yeah, that’s how I would say it. To be honest with you, I forgot that was her name until I Googled her, so there we go. [laughs]

Micah: Gotta say, “Wall-burga!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That’s what I was thinking. It sounds like Wahlburgers. Now I’m going to go get a Wahlburger after the show.

Eric: You know when you’re in college and you’re working, you’re studying all day, and then you and your friends go out at night for a Wahl-burga?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Wahl-burga.

Eric: And fries?

Andrew: I’ve never had a Wahlburger.

Eric: Yeah, it’s good.

Micah: What do you think her nickname was?

Eric: Wally.

Micah: Molly had… Wallywobbles.

Eric: Wallywobbles, then.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I like Wally.

Eric: I think Mr. Black, dearly departed Mr. Black, probably called her Wallywobbles.

Andrew: Well, before we get started with Chapter by Chapter, we have some actually pretty exciting news: We now have an official merch store available at MuggleCastMerch.com. This is the new home of all MuggleCast merchandise, all original MuggleCast merchandise. This is stuff we haven’t released to patrons either; this is all brand new stuff. We have T-shirts, sweaters, hoodies, hats, and we will be rolling out more in the months ahead. We even have Security Nightmare gear, including a couple things that say “Security Consultant” on them, and that means you will be hired at Hogwarts to finally get that place under control. I mentioned a hat; we’re calling it the MuggleCap in the store. We have drinkware. We even have a Pickle Pack shirt!

Eric: This stuff has never existed before, which is a big moment of excitement for me. And also, Andrew, what are you wearing right now?

Andrew: I’m glad you asked. I’m wearing a “We criticize because we care” T-shirt, and this shirt and other designs have our iconic mic bolt design on them as well. This shirt… it’s a common refrain on the show, “We criticize because we care.”

Eric: It’s true.

Andrew: We’ve gotten feedback over the years. “Why are you guys complaining about this or that?” We’re criticizing because we want to see the fandom thrive! We want to see the story thrive! We criticize because we care. So this shirt is not just for people in the Harry Potter fandom; it’s for people in all fandoms, because it’s a common issue everywhere. We do ship worldwide, and like I said, we plan to roll out new products in the months ahead, so stay tuned. How about y’all? What are you most looking forward to wearing?

Eric: I definitely got a Security Consultant – or Security Nightmare – shirt, and that’s on order, as well as some of the glassware. We have glassware.

Laura: Look how fancy we are.

Andrew: Very sophisticated.

Eric: It says “Potions Master” on it, which I love.

Micah: Old fashioned would look nice in that.

Eric: Yeah, mix me up a cocktail. And Micah, you have to come to Chicago and bring yours, and then we’ll mix them up.

Andrew: We have a MuggleCast mug as well, and there’s a strong emphasis on “Mug” in MuggleCast, as you’ll see in the design. Slug Club patrons right now have access to a special discount code, so please check that out, Slug Club patrons. They were the first to receive access to the store. So yeah, once again, MuggleCastMerch.com. For the first time ever, we have an official merch store. This is a new opportunity to support us, and we know people have been asking for MuggleCast merch outside of Patreon, so it’s a win-win. Check it all out. Thanks, everybody.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 4, “Number 12 Grimmauld Place.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I love saying those numbers back to back.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: And Eric, we got a Time-Turner segment this week, right?

Eric: We do, we do. Yes, we last discussed this chapter on Episode 229, called “Sunglasses Not Recommended.” Okay. And also Episode 436 – this one makes sense – it’s called “ALL CAPS” in all caps.

Andrew: Ooh, good one.

Eric: And that was… so 229 was on May 27, 2011, and 436 was September 23, 2019. Over five years ago. I’ve got to say, for this week’s audio clip of the Time-Turner segment, it’s rated PG-13. I just want to put that out there.

Andrew: Oh, boy.

Eric: Luke, Forrest, cover your ears.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I’m sorry, but Micah has been bringing it with the innuendo, and this week, I decided to let him.

Laura: Oh, dear.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 229.

Eric: We learn that Bill Weasley is home from Egypt; he’s taken a desk job at Gringotts in London. And we also find out that “old Fleur Delacour” is working at Gringotts and getting private English lessons from Bill.

Andrew: Private English lessons.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Locked in a room all by themselves.

Eric: Yes, funny how…

Andrew: I can see where true love is going to spark now.

Eric: Bill is being very…

Micah: Yeah, she was probably having some fun with those Knuts.

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 436.

Andrew: A couple pages later, Harry describes the house “as though it belonged to the Darkest of wizards,” which I found interesting because two books ago, that was Sirius to Harry. He was the Darkest of wizards.

Eric: Oh, man. I love that.

Laura: That’s a really nice kind of connecting the threats moment. I love that.

Andrew: Yay, I did one.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Go Andrew.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Micah: Andrew is just the setup man. He set me up for that joke, if you listen back to 229.

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: Hey, you had to take it.

Laura: And what I love about it is it’s a blink and you’ll miss it moment. I love it.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, I love reflecting on this chapter because reading it back at this point, so much about what is going to go down in this book is, in retrospect, incredibly obvious, because we have a lot of setup happening here. First and foremost, the foreshadowing about Sirius’s eventual unaliving is really blunt, and I’m wondering if any of us picked up on any of this the first time. So we have Grimmauld Place, which really just sounds like it’s intended to be like “Grim old place,” which I think is a great descriptor for Sirius’s childhood home. There’s of course the connection to Sirius’s Animagus form being mistaken for the Grim, which is the omen of death two years prior. And when they enter the home, Harry and the Advance Guard, it’s noted that “it was as though they had just entered the house of a dying person,” because they’re speaking in hushed tones. Mrs. Weasley also warns Harry to keep quiet so as to not wake anything up, which I think just lends a sense of foreboding of what the heck they’re walking into here. And Andrew, you had something else you wanted to call out?

Andrew: Well, yeah, I just wanted to mention because we see it used across the series; here is another example of the number 12 being used, and this is probably one of the most prominent uses of number 12 in the series. But yeah, I don’t remember personally reading this the first time and thinking, “There’s bad news ahead for one of the characters,” but at this point in the series, we’re five books in. Somebody either gets unalived or disappears by the end of the book, so maybe I should have been more cautious when reading this and thinking, “Well, somebody’s going to be disappearing. Maybe it’s going to be a Black with all this foreshadowing that’s going on around here.”

Eric: I just remember feeling a sense of dread this whole book, but because it starts off Harry is in such a bad place, and now this new place is not exciting in a happy way.

Micah: It’s not the Burrow.

Eric: Yeah, “What great terror awaits us around this corner? Or in this drawer?” is something that everyone’s asking, and it’s depressing.

Laura: Speaking of depressing, Harry is still feeling really isolated in this moment, even though he’s having a couple of reunions here. Mrs. Weasley pretty quickly shoos him off to the room that he’s going to be staying in, which is where Ron and Hermione are hanging out right now, and she does this in the service of getting him out of the way so that she and the other adults can go to an Order meeting that the kids are not allowed to go to. And I thought this would be a really good opportunity for us to reestablish the conversation we’ve had over the years of “Is the Horcrux acting up here?” because initially, Harry feels a “warm glow” flare inside of him at the sight of his two best friends…

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: … but he suddenly feels it “extinguished as something icy flooded the pit of his stomach. All of a sudden – after yearning to see them for a solid month – he felt he would rather Ron and Hermione left him alone.”

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: So I thought it would be interesting for us to watch for the actual descriptors, the adjectives that are at play when these moments happen, when Harry is really agitated, or we see him described as starting to get ticked off really quickly, because I think there might be some clues here that we can use to justify whether or not we think this is Horcrux influence or it’s just Harry. And to me, when I read this description of something icy flooding the pit of his stomach, it feels like the Horcrux to me.

Eric: Yeah, you expect to hear a sound cue that’s like, [makes a drooping noise]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: [imitating Voldemort] “Don’t get too happy! I’m still haunting you!”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Yeah, moments like these can definitely be attributed to the Horcrux, but I also think that it’s important to note that the Horcrux needs to feed off of certain emotions. Harry is behaving much how we would expect a 15-year-old who’s been isolated all summer from his friends to behave, but there’s this extra edge to him in this chapter, and really, we haven’t seen Harry like this before; we haven’t seen these emotions bubble up to the surface. But this is that initial moment… like you said, Laura, there’s this warm glow initially to see the people that he has been longing to see for so long and spend some time with, but then it’s almost like he catches himself and he puts himself in check and says, “Hold on. These are also the people who haven’t been talking to me all summer long, so I’m going to let loose.”

Eric: Yeah. Like, “Wait a minute, I’m mad at these people!”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and also, it is exciting to see Ron and Hermione, but they’re in this very depressing area. Like, “Oh, this is cool, but where are we right now?” I mean, he still doesn’t even know this is a Black family home.

Eric: No, he’s desperate to be so mad at them, and when he finds out that they’ve been miserable too, or in the same awful place, the fact that he really can’t be mad at them and shouldn’t be mad at them to begin with, it doesn’t stop him from blowing up, because he just needs to get this out. And to Micah’s point about Harry behaving in a way in which you’d expect, Hermione and Ron did expect this. They expected him to be angry. Hermione says as much at least twice, like, “We knew that if you were left alone and given no info…” And Harry says things that aren’t quite fair. And the problem is… I think it’s pretty clear the person he should be mad at exclusively is Dumbledore, but Dumbledore is untouchable. You can’t be mad at Dumbledore because Dumbledore ain’t around. He’s not taking any calls. Nobody talk to him; he’s away. So in the meantime, his friends get shouted at, and it’s not great.

Andrew: I like this question from Ariane Beth, who’s listening live on our Patreon right now: “Could Harry’s Horcrux also be reacting to proximity to the locket? Which is there until Sirius dies and Mundungus ransacks the place.” So that’s a good theory, right?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, Harry, I think, would certainly be more susceptible to being sensitive to it. We’ll have to pay attention to what happens when we actually see the locket, because we are going to see it.

Eric: It’s funny; from what I recall, nothing happens? They don’t feel a sense of dread or anything? They’re actually curious more than ever, because when they find it during cleaning, every single one of them gets a chance to try and open it, and they can’t open it, so they’re all kind of exposing themselves, getting really, really close to the locket, and it’s just a locket. It’s fun that it’s mentioned, but none of them seem to come down with anything. But what I was just thinking of was what if the locket has really expanded on that sense of dread? Because it’s been in this house for many years now at this point, so what if it’s taken over… as we know that it’s contained in the locket, but this particular Horcrux has a way of emanating out and making everyone around it miserable, so what if at this point it’s confined in the whole house? And not just…

Laura: That’s interesting.

Eric: I wonder if… and then that would explain why everything is so grim, on top of the fact that there are just grim circumstances in the world.

Micah: Don’t we attribute the locket to why Kreacher behaves much of the way that he does as well? Because he’s in possession of it?

Eric: Yeah, either the locket or the potion, but he definitely keeps the locket real close.

Micah: One question I did want to ask, though, about this iciness that he gets in his stomach: Couldn’t that just be anxiety? Couldn’t it be nerves building up as he’s about to explode?

Laura: Yeah, for sure.

Andrew: Yeah, because now he knows… he’s excited to see Ron and Hermione, but now he knows he needs to have a talking with them, because he’s got feelings that he needs to get out. So yeah, that could explain it.

Laura: Yeah, and maybe some fear, too, because I’m sure there’s got to be not only anxiety driving the response that he has here, but he probably is a little bit afraid of yelling at his friends, deep down.

Andrew: I would be too! That’s tough. They deserve it, but that’s tough.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Do they? No, no, they don’t. No, they don’t.

Laura: Well, let’s actually talk about some specific examples of Harry’s Caps Lock rant, and talk about whether we think they’re mostly being driven by Harry himself, or are they being driven by the Horcrux? And I’m actually wondering if I can get some dramatic readings out of y’all. So has anyone had a hard day? Does anyone feel like shouting?

Andrew: I think Micah said he had a hard day. Let’s have Micah do it.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Come on, get the rage out, Micah. This is like ax-throwing, but on a podcast.

Micah: Well, I’ll start with a little bit of self-doubt and calmness. “Maybe he thinks I can’t be trusted.”

Laura: This is about Dumbledore. Harry or Horcrux, y’all?

Andrew: Harry.

Eric: That one’s Harry, just because that level of insecurity… he says it in a way that it’s like it would be unfair and ridiculous for Dumbledore to think that, but it’s real, raw insecurity. That’s what Harry’s best explanation is for why Dumbledore is not being forthcoming with him.

Laura: Yeah. All right, Micah, are you ready?

Micah: I’m ready. Let’s go.

Laura: Okay.

Micah: “YOU’VE STILL BEEN HERE, HAVEN’T YOU? YOU’VE STILL BEEN TOGETHER!”

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Oh my God, that was scary as hell.

Micah: [laughs] Well, wasn’t that the idea?

Andrew: I don’t like that. Laura, this was a bad idea.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I think I triggered Andrew.

Andrew: I feel like I just saw the beast in Beauty and the Beast when he’s raging.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: “STAY OUT OF THE WEST WING!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, incredible.

Andrew: No, that was great, Micah.

Micah: Harry, right?

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Eric: That one… yeah, he’s holding it against them that Hermione… yeah, it’s just unfair, but it’s all Harry, I think.

Laura: All right, anyone else want to shout?

Eric: I’ll do this one. “I’VE HANDLED MORE THAN YOU TWO’VE EVER MANAGED AND DUMBLEDORE KNOWS IT!”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Damn, Harry. That’s so rude.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a little much.

Eric: What are we thinking?

Andrew: I’m going to say Horcrux Harry.

Micah: Agree.

Eric: Okay. How come?

Andrew: It’s just out of character to say, “I’ve done more than you two have, so why am I in the dark?”

Eric: Well, and he says things like, “Who fought the…? Who got the Stone? Who went to the Chamber?” It’s like, “Dude, you didn’t do that in a vacuum, okay? These two were with you.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Ron literally laid down himself to get you as far as the Stone. It’s completely uncalled for. And it gives me… it’s giving Voldemort when he says, “I, who have traveled further and studied more and done more than the others to evade death. I’ve gone farther than any other wizard.” It’s literally like…

Micah: He’s bragging.

Eric: He’s bragging, yeah. “I’ve handled more than you two.”

Micah: And he invokes Dumbledore.

Eric: Well, this isn’t a job interview. He doesn’t need to prove to them that he’s qualified. They’re his best friends, and he’s their best friend. That’s why I think it’s Horcrux.

Laura: Yeah, this is petty. Harry is not really a petty person, not really, so I agree.

Eric: Well, and to Micah’s point, too, the mention of Dumbledore. If anything is going to bring the Horcrux in Harry out, it’s the name Dumbledore. Keeping totally separate from the fact that Harry has a great reason to be upset with Dumbledore, that’s a name that you would think the Horcrux in Harry, if it were listening, would be like, “Hate that guy,” and then go crazy.

Andrew: We have one more all caps moment here. He says, “I SUPPOSE YOU’VE BEEN HAVING A REAL LAUGH, HAVEN’T YOU, ALL HOLED UP HERE TOGETHER.”

Laura: [laughs] That was very good.

Eric: It was great.

Laura: Great performances.

Andrew: My general feeling about the all caps moments is they are all Horcrux Harry, because even though Harry has reason to be angry with his friends, the all caps, raging, Micah-style yelling just feels out of character for Harry for his best friends. It just seems so inappropriate. Can you imagine yelling at your own best friends, or friends of five, six years in this way?

Eric: Then again, he’s not being given a channel to process the trauma that he still has from just seeing Cedric die a month ago, and so this is very… these outbursts that are not characteristic are, in fact, textbook PTSD or post-trauma reactions because he’s not actually confronting his emotion.

Micah: This one was a little bit more difficult for me, because even though you could blame it on the Horcrux, there’s also this moment of deep insecurity that comes across in what he’s saying here, the fact that he thinks that Ron and Hermione have been off in Grimmauld Place having some laughs at his expense. They’re together; he’s not. He’s the odd man out. He’s being left out of the situation. That speaks very much to his own insecurity of the entire situation that he’s been put into this summer.

Laura: Doesn’t the Horcrux amplify that feeling, though? I think we see that with Ron in two books’ time, right? Where his moments of insecurity are really heightened and amplified when he’s wearing the Horcrux. So Harry’s got one in his head; I think it makes it worse, for sure.

Andrew: So setting angry Harry aside, I actually think this chapter might make him feel better, and not because of the raging, but we’ll talk about that in a moment. We’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Andrew: So I have a bit of a theory I want to run by y’all. I’m wondering if Harry starts to feel better about being left in the dark after what he learns in this chapter, because he doesn’t learn a lot of great information, and it’s not like Ron and Hermione have been having it easy either. So here are some examples: First of all, Ron and Hermione have been left in the dark when it comes to the Order meetings. They have to be cautious moving around this mystery house that they’re in because of Mrs. Black’s portrait. Snape is popping in. Ew, gross.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Dumbledore has been a very busy man. He hasn’t been vacationing; he hasn’t been hanging out with everybody. Fred and George have been popping into bedrooms unannounced to show off their Apparition licenses, which just sounds really annoying. They’re all cramped in this dark and depressing house. Molly is stressed. I just think the Dursleys’ house was abusive and bad, and Harry was left in the dark, but after seeing what’s been going on at 12 Grimmauld Place, hasn’t been that much better over here either.

Eric: Does Harry feel better because of this? No, because it just… he literally did not imagine that Ron and Hermione would also be having a bad summer, because how could you have a bad summer when you’re together?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But it turns out, Dumbledore has found a way to not tell people things even when they’re together!

Laura: Yeah. And also, I just… I’ve got to call out here; I don’t think there’s any evidence here to confirm that Dumbledore has not been vacationing.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, they say he’s been busy, but I don’t know. I need to see receipts. I need to see what the man’s been up to. I don’t believe it. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, okay, maybe…

Micah: Let’s see his AmEx from JJ’s and make sure that he was popping back some margaritas.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah, he’s been busy. He’s been busy delegating… from the beach.

Andrew: That may be true, but we know he wasn’t at 12 Grimmauld Place, so it’s not like everybody’s been hanging out with Dumbledore without Harry.

Micah: I really do like how you put this all together, though, Andrew, and it just shows that there are varying degrees of isolation. Harry is in one situation in Grimmauld Place, and despite the fact that Ron and Hermione are together, they’re still very much not in the know of what’s going on. But I do think if you were to ask Harry, he would have still preferred to be there, because he would be with his friends. He would be within the wizarding community, which I think that’s the hardest part for him. It’s not that he’s necessarily isolated from his friends; it’s that he’s isolated from this whole other world of which he is now a part of, and that’s the hard part for him.

Andrew: I agree with you. I put this together because while I was reading the chapter, I was like, “Oh, this isn’t that great. Snape. Dirty old house.”

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Oh, Ron and Hermione have to do a lot of cleaning. I think I skipped over that one. That’s not fun. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Harry is like, “I know how to clean.”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, “Let me clean.” I mean, cleaning can be fun, but cleaning this house? I don’t know. I don’t want to deep clean this house. [laughs]

Eric: I don’t know; it’s got all this magic stuff in it. It could be kind of cool.

Laura: See, I feel like cleaning would be a lot more fun if we could use magic to clean. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: And I know that’s how the kids are going to feel here in the next couple of chapters. But yeah, I agree with you, and I think adding to the mix here that Ron and Hermione really want to tell Harry what’s going on and they can’t, so they’re having to deal with the frustration and the isolation of their environment all while being told, “No, you can’t tell your best friend what’s going on, even though really scary stuff is happening to him.” So I think Harry does feel a little bad towards the end. We definitely see him start calming down, especially when conversation turns to Percy, which we’ll talk about here in the next few minutes. But before we get to that, I wanted to ask if we agree with Mrs. Weasley not letting the kids attend the meetings. Again, the whole reason this Caps Lock Harry moment is able to play out is because Mrs. Weasley very quickly sends him into a room where he can be alone with Ron and Hermione while she and the other adults attend to Order business. I think it’s interesting that even Fred and George, who are of age, can’t attend.

Eric: I mean, yeah, this is the kind of situation, though, where I think Molly probably suspects – and we believe – that if any one of them hears what’s going on in the meeting, they’re going to spill the beans to the rest of the kids.

Andrew: Especially Fred and George. They cannot be trusted.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But there is a question about would they tell anyone outside this group? And that, I don’t think so.

Micah: No.

Eric: I can’t see Fred and George even telling their good friend Lee Jordan about what they heard in the meetings if they were allowed in the meetings, because Lee is not in the Order, and so yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know how I feel about Molly’s decision.

Laura: Yeah, I think another way to think about this is what if Harry had been allowed to know more? Maybe not everything, but more about what the Order was protecting, and specifically where they were protecting it. Would the outcome of this story have been different?

Eric: Oh, 100%. Harry doesn’t yet know that he’s been dreaming about the Ministry of Magic, and it’ll be something that’s interesting to look up in the next chapter when we learn more about what guard duty is or who’s doing what just to… because I think with enough information, Harry would volunteer that he’s been seeing things, and they would have started Occlumency a lot sooner. And yeah, totally different book.

Micah: Just to go back to the Fred and George point and the fact that they are of age: One thing that came to mind for me with Molly is that she already has two sons and a husband who are in the Order; she lost two brothers in the first war. Maybe she wants to limit the risk here a little bit. She does have seven kids in total, and including them all in Order business seems extremely risky, and we know what a protective mother she is of her children. Also of Harry, but I do think it seems a bit silly to not let Harry in a little bit more, and the main reason there just being, look at the first four years of these three at Hogwarts. You don’t give them information, what ends up happening?

Eric: Trouble!

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: They find their way into trouble anyway.

Eric: Mischief! Yeah, yeah. Well, yes, I agree 100%.

Andrew: I think that’s a really good point, Micah, looking at her other family members. I think that Molly is very stressed, and Harry is noting this in this chapter. I think he says she’s looking thinner or more frail, and I would not be surprised if she doesn’t want to push that stress onto the kids by them all learning this information. That said, I do also agree. I like this idea – I think, Eric, you said – if Fred and George learn everything, they’re not going to go and tell Seamus. There’s an unspoken trust that everybody… what happens in this house stays in this house. [laughs]

Eric: Pretty much, yeah.

Andrew: And I don’t even think you would have to tell the kids that. I think there’s an understanding that what’s going on here, what’s being discussed here, is very serious. We have this place on lockdown, and this stuff can’t get out. I would trust the kids.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, I think so too. And actually, getting back to the question about whether Molly is just trying to protect her kids, I think that tracks. I also was reviewing “The Sacking of Severus Snape” from Deathly Hallows, and it’s literally the point where all of her children want to fight in the Battle of Hogwarts, and her only hope is to keep Ginny out of it, because Ginny is still the youngest. And it doesn’t work, sort of, but Molly wants always to protect as many of her children as possible, and even if that means shielding them from the truth, unfortunately.

Laura: Yeah. Well, she’s also, to her credit, probably thinking about what could happen if somehow her children were outed as being Order members, right? I mean, that puts targets on their back, so she is thinking about keeping them safe. Unfortunately, I think keeping them completely in the dark ends up shooting the whole operation in the foot.

Eric: Yeah, but ultimately, it’s not Molly’s decision. You know Dumbledore was probably just like, “No effing kids.” [laughs]

Laura: Oh, for sure.

Eric: And then they all have to follow his orders. There’s no way he’s going to sit in the same meeting as these children. He’s not going to do it.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s a fun point too. Yeah, he doesn’t want to be meeting with Fred and George. Screw that.

Eric: Yeah, what the hell?

Laura: I mean, is he even coming to these meetings? I don’t see him there tonight. [laughs]

Andrew: No. He’s popping in and out real quick.

Micah: He came in through the back door.

Laura: No, he’s literally the guy who sets the meeting, but then doesn’t show up for it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, right. Well, and Snape doesn’t want to be working with Fred and George. Like, come on. [laughs] He’s out of the Order if that happens.

Eric: Yeah, like peers? Can you see that happening? Yeah, no. There are still leagues of difference between what some of these adult wizards are getting up to, versus what these children could reasonably contribute. All of that to say that separately, Harry needs to be let in immediately on everything, but they don’t know if they can trust him because if Voldemort is listening. But the fact that that is not described to Harry until after Mr. Weasley nearly dies is messed up.

Laura: I agree with y’all overall, but I will just remind everyone that Mundungus Fletcher is in the Order of the Phoenix, so I mean, I can’t see how any of these kids could be worse than him. [laughs]

Andrew: But he’s an adult.

Eric: Ehh…

Laura: Yeah, who dips out at two very crucial moments that we see in the series.

Eric: In this chapter…

Laura: Yes!

Eric: … Hermione says that Dumbledore was scary-looking. But Dung is still alive, so honestly, bit of fluff there with Dumbledore. He didn’t kill Mundungus. If he didn’t spell that guy flat immediately for doing what he did and putting Harry at risk and putting their whole operation at risk… everyone in the Order knows that this whole book series revolves around Harry. Everyone knows that it’s all because of him. And Mundungus did something so reckless that should absolutely have made him not be able to still be in the Order, but the Order is desperate. Look at their choice in venue as well. Something I was thinking while reading this: They have nowhere else to be. You would think people who have Dumbledore’s magical talent could come up with… literally fabricate a headquarters that is shiny, new, spacious, everything, but no, they’re in this old, dilapidated house. There really is not a plethora of places they can go. The Order is actually, in a sad sort of way, trying to raise awareness for something that the government is completely antithetical to.

Laura: Yeah. Well, Eric, I’m glad that you brought up Dumbledore’s anger about the Dementor attack, because a lot of story beats that we’re left with at the end of Goblet of Fire are picked up here, including that Hermione saying Dumbledore looked scary. And we can remember at the very end of Goblet, Dumbledore really trying to convince Fudge that allying ourselves with Dementors is a terrible idea, and we can tell Dumbledore is obviously ticked off about this, because it’s kind of an “I told you so” moment. What did you think was going to happen? We also get to hear about the Daily Prophet picking up where Rita left off. To Hermione’s satisfaction, Rita is not writing anymore right now, but the Daily Prophet has definitely taken to undermining Harry at every turn and really trying to set expectations that Harry is not to be believed, so that when he says things like “Voldemort is back,” people think he’s just crazy.

Eric: It’s really insidious and unfortunately a really valuable tactic for the Ministry to deploy their campaign to smear Harry, and I also get upset with Harry that he doesn’t have good media literacy. This whole time, he could have been clued in on some of these finer points of what the Ministry was trying to do. I don’t think it would have made him less angry, but unfortunately, there’s this scene between him and Hermione, and she’s like, “Haven’t you been getting the Prophet?” And he’s like, “Yeah.” And she’s like, “Well, have you been reading it?” He’s like, “Pfft, first page.” She’s like, “Oh, Harry. No.”

Andrew: “Because I’m the Chosen One, so of course I would be covered on page 1.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “I would be on the front page!”

Andrew: “I would be on A1 above the fold.”

Micah: That’s very Horcrux-y of him.

Andrew: [laughs] It does seem like an oversight to not read through the entire paper. I feel like he would read the entire paper simply because he’s bored at the Dursleys’.

Eric: He wants to feel connected! Yeah!

Andrew: Yeah, go further back into the paper. Play the Daily Prophet‘s Wordle or crossword puzzle. He’s only looking at the front page or the front couple of pages?

Laura: Well, he says that’s because he assumed that if there was anything reported about Voldemort’s return, it would be front page news. It’s almost like he forgot everything that Dumbledore said at the end of Goblet. It’s almost like he forgot Fudge’s reaction to everything, and he was leading under the assumption that eventually the truth would come out, and surely it would be front page news. But unfortunately, Fudge is… he’s really, really… what’s the word I’m thinking of? Sorry.

Micah: Strategic.

Eric: Leaning on the…

Laura: Yeah, he’s really leaning heavily on the Daily Prophet to influence the way that they’re reporting on their stories.

Andrew: Well, yeah, and I agree with that, but I just still think Harry is so bored at the Dursleys’; he’s got nothing else to do. Don’t you want to know what’s happening in the wizarding world, outside of Voldemort’s return? Maybe that would make you happier if you saw some good news in the Prophet about…

Laura: It’s very on brand for Harry, though; let’s be honest. In a few chapters, Dolores Umbridge is going to give this tyrannical, autocratic speech at the opening feast of term, and Harry is going to zone out because he gets bored and he’s going to need Hermione to explain to him what the heck it was Dolores Umbridge just said.

Eric: And then he passes off her summary as his own opinion and gets caught on it by McGonagall, I think, which is fun.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I love that.

Micah: Even if Harry had read the Daily Prophet, though, to me, he seems like more of a skimmer, and if he’s only looking at the headlines, he’s not going to pick up on the nuance that Hermione brings up to him in this chapter. These were just very casual passing references that were included in articles that likely Harry is not going to be sitting there and reading every single article, so unless it’s bold and in the headlines, I don’t think it’s capturing his attention.

Eric: But then think about what it says about Hermione’s love for Harry that she is reading every article, and her ability to comprehend what she’s reading and see what the Ministry is doing. The fact that… the reason that Hermione is so clued in when Umbridge speaks at the start of term is because she’s been seeing the stage get set for exactly this sort of thing. She’s apt. Aren’t we so glad we have Hermione as our great ally? Everyone but Harry can agree that Hermione is great always, and is always on his side, clearly.

Laura: For sure. Before we get back to the dialogue that Harry, Ron, and Hermione have, I did just want to note this moment of great misdirection that comes up. When Ron and Hermione are really trying to give Harry any context that they can give him, they talk about the Extendable Ears that Fred and George have invented that have allowed them to overhear some things, and Ron mentions that they’ve heard them talk about something to do with guard duty, and Harry shoots back at him, “Oh, do you think they might have been talking about me?”

Andrew: [haughtily] “I am the Chosen One. They must be talking about me.”

Laura: And Ron is like, “Oh, yeah, that’s probably it.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I love this because yes, they could have… they probably absolutely were talking about Harry, but we know the real thing that they’re talking about, and it’s the prophecy at the Ministry. So really, really fun moment.

Andrew: Yeah, I love that.

Laura: Well, now Fred and George joined the party. They hear Harry shouting, and they Apparate into the room. And I think this is so interesting, because in the last book, Percy was doing the exact same thing after he passed his Apparition exam…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … and George says, “Percy only passed two weeks ago. He’s been Apparating downstairs every morning since, just to prove he can.” So I think it’s really funny that Fred and George are passing this judgment on Percy a book ago, and now they’re here doing the exact same thing. It really reminded me of how we said that this feels like the wizarding equivalent to getting your driver’s license.

Andrew: Yeah, there’s a certain freedom that comes with being able to Apparate. That said, this is a huge invasion of people’s privacy.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: I would be so annoyed if somebody did this to me.

Eric: I mean, I bet Fred and George are just trying to make sure no one was murdered; Harry is screaming so much. [laughs]

Andrew: I mean, yeah, that could be a fun joke once, and then after that, I would get super tired of it.

Eric: Oh, yeah. No, but it’s very much “I’m going to the store; you want anything?” “You just went five minutes ago.” “Yeah, I know. I’m going again. You want anything?”

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: Yeah. Hogwarts was onto something when they set up that “No Apparating in and out of Hogwarts” rule. That was smart.

Eric: Oh, yeah, people would pass time like crazy.

Laura: Yeah. We all thought it was a security measure, but it was really to stop the students from being obnoxious with Apparition.

Andrew: That school is not a privacy nightmare.

[Laura laughs]

[Ad break]

Micah: With Fred and George, though, the way that it comes across is that they do it in a comical sort of way. To me, with Percy, I would assume he did it with a level of arrogance, and maybe that’s just…

Eric: I mean, Percy does everything with a level of arrogance, right?

Micah: Well, that’s why it’s just… it’s not the same.

Eric: [laughs] I mean, Percy couldn’t have been doing it for a more functional reason. He needed breakfast, so he would Apparate down and grab the toast, and Apparate back up.

Micah: Fair enough.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I also think Fred and George are actually good brothers, and I think in this moment, they’re doing this to diffuse the situation. I mean, they literally say, “Oh, Harry, we thought those were your dulcet tones that we heard.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I think that they’re trying to ease the tension in the room, but they’re doing it in a very Fred and George way.

Micah: And he’s their sugar daddy. They want to make sure that he’s okay.

Andrew: [laughs] “Just checking in on you,” yeah.

Micah: He’s bankrolling them.

Laura: Oh, man.

Andrew: Yeah, he’s a long term investor.

Laura: Maybe that’s what it is. They’re like, “We gotta check up on Harry. Gotta check up on our man.”

Andrew: “Our sugar daddy.”

Micah: Sugar Daddy Harry.

Laura: Make sure he’s okay.

Andrew: Episode title!

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Harry the sugar daddy.

Andrew: New T-shirt!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: How did it take us 670 episodes to get there?

Laura: Well, speaking of Percy – we were just chatting about how obnoxious he was last book with his Apparition – believe it or not, he gets even worse here, because Percy, Harry learns, has gone no contact with his family, as the kids would say, and he’s had some really hurtful things to say to Arthur in the process in particular. He says things like he’s had to struggle with Arthur’s lousy reputation working at the Ministry, and that Arthur has no ambition, and says to his father, to his face, that that is why the Weasley family has always struggled economically. That hurts to read, especially thinking about someone saying that to Arthur.

Eric: For me, this illustrates how… we’ve often seen Ron struggle with being poor, but I think it has affected every member of the Weasley family, and this is something that wouldn’t have come out of Percy’s mouth ever if it weren’t for the special circumstances, I think, and the strain that the circumstances in the world are putting them under. But Percy had this news of getting a promotion; he wanted to be congratulated, and instead, it was met with this suspicion – rightly so, I think – that it wasn’t earned. And there’s not a safe way you can tell someone that their promotion that they’re excited about was not earned, and did Arthur probably bungle it? Maybe, but Percy is not the kind who can hear that sort of thing in the same sentence, instead of “Congratulations,” and then take it to heart. So this is just very unfortunate that these things were said, but…

Laura: Yeah, he’s too proud.

Andrew: Yeah. I can understand the pain from both sides, because like you were saying, Eric, he wants to be congratulated. He is proud of this position. He doesn’t want to be belittled, and he doesn’t want his family to pull the rug out from under his excitement. And I also think maybe the Weasleys could have treaded a little more carefully here. They know he wanted a job like this. They know he wanted to work his way up in the Ministry. Is it worth bringing this up right now? Why not just privately set up your own walls?

Micah: It’s a paranoia, though. It’s a product of the time in which they’re living, and they’re recognizing the fact that Percy didn’t have the best year last year in working for Barty Crouch, Sr. …

Eric: [laughs] Right.

Laura: No.

Micah: … so why in the world would he be promoted to work with the Minister for Magic? The idea that perhaps Fudge is trying to draw him into his inner circle so that he can have a direct line to the Weasley family actually makes a lot of sense. But I would have preferred it if, in the end, we learned that Dumbledore went to Percy and had said, “Percy, look, take this job, and I need you to almost be at odds with your family over it so that you play your role as well as you possibly can.” I think it would have done a lot more for Percy’s character. He does finally come back to the family in Deathly Hallows, but Percy is just so blind because of his own ambition in this moment that he can’t see what’s going on around him, and it reminds me of the line that we’ll hear later on in this book, that the world isn’t divided into good people and Death Eaters. The battle lines are starting to be drawn, right? Even within families. Maybe that’s a strong term to use, but it’s clear that as things progress, it’s not just good side/bad side. There’s people who are going to fill in this middle ground area in these next couple books.

Eric: Yeah, and Percy is the kind of person who genuinely believes that if you work hard, you’ll have great things happen for you. And because he’s worked hard, from his perspective, he thinks that he’s earned this, but he’s also internalized every bit of shame that the Ministry has ever thrown towards Muggle-lovers and all this other stuff. He’s inherited all these other prejudices that most ordinary people have that the Weasleys don’t, and it’s made him turn on his own family like this. It’s coming from a place of deep isolation, and Fred and George have done their part Percy’s whole life to make him feel like the odd one out in the family, so this was a long time coming, but it is very unfortunate.

Laura: Yeah. I wanted to ask y’all if you thought that we had ever seen any other examples of Percy resenting or being embarrassed by his family’s lack of money. I think what stood out to me rereading this is exactly what you just said, Eric; I think Percy’s isolation amongst his siblings is very clear. His resentment about the family’s economic status, I feel like this is the first time that’s ever been addressed. We hear Ron be embarrassed about it all the time, but I can’t recall an instance with Percy.

Eric: I mean, it might just be that Harry is Ron’s friend and they’re the same age, so the stuff Percy would have been going through would have happened at the same age, but two years earlier, before Harry was in the picture. So you’re not going to hear Percy complain about hand-me-downs, because by year five he’s used to it, or something like that.

Laura: Well, Percy doesn’t get as many hand-me-downs, I suspect, right? I think Ron, as the youngest boy in the family, probably gets the most. Well, speaking of people in Harry Potter and their complicated families, I think we can all agree that Percy really sucks here. Overall, I understand him being too proud and embarrassed to accept what his father is saying to him, but he ain’t stupid. He should be able to piece that together. Can we think of any characters other than Percy who maybe should have cut their families off in Harry Potter?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: There are some rough families in this series.

Andrew: Harry Potter himself should have cut off his Dursley family.

Eric: Yeah. Dumbledore wouldn’t let him because he’s got to be welcomed back on Privet Drive. I said Merope, but we know she tried.

Laura: She did.

Micah: Draco? Percy reminds me of Draco in how they kind of do a complete 180 by the end of the book. It’s once they’re in too deep and they recognize just how bad things are, that’s when it clicks for them.

Eric: Yeah, and it wouldn’t… nothing short of that could have, I think, turned them around. Yeah, it’s interesting. I also don’t think that what Percy said to Arthur was fair, necessarily, about not having any ambition. I think that knowing the way the Ministry is – and Fudge is going around, it’s said in this chapter, telling anyone that if they sympathize with Dumbledore, they can be fired – knowing that that’s the way they play it, I actually respect Arthur for getting a position in the Ministry where he has enough autonomy that he can skate by. If he were closer to Fudge in terms of the overall structure, he might have to start being more outspoken against Dumbledore, and that just wouldn’t serve him.

Andrew: The no ambition comment is just so mean to say to your father, too. First of all, Arthur is happy in this role. Second of all, he raised you under his roof. He was able to make it work. Third of all, they had how many kids? Eight? How many Weasley kids are there?

Eric and Micah: Seven.

Andrew: Seven? Of course, seven.

Eric: Bill, Charlie, Percy, Fred, George, Ron, Ginny.

Andrew: I mean, that takes some ambition right there.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But yeah, I think it can also be extended to his choice in field, because the reason that he’s not able to climb the ladder as easily at the Ministry is because his chosen field is something that the Ministry is largely not supportive of, and that is the wizarding government passing judgment on what things merit funding and exploratory research, right? And that’s what Percy is saying here. Effectively, what Percy is saying is, “Well, Fudge doesn’t think that Muggle artifacts are important, so why should you? Pick something that our society values more than what you’re doing.” And that is what Percy thinks is a lack of ambition. It’s rough. But yeah, I think Merope is a good example of someone who tried, but…

Eric: Yeah, her family was just completely toxic for her, and she knew it; she imagined better for herself. So Ariane Beth made a comment on the Discord, listening live, and said, “The other side of ‘If you work hard, you’ll have good things happen to you’ is the often unsaid ‘If your life doesn’t meet your expectations, it must be somehow your fault,’ which is not logical or true at all, but I think is what Percy is putting on Arthur.” So that’s interesting. It’s literally this idea of merit and that you actually earn your station in life, and time and again I think in real life we see that be tested, of “Actually, no, it doesn’t necessarily work out.”

Laura: Well, shifting to another Weasley sibling, Ginny, I was really pleasantly surprised to read this and be reminded of this moment. I really feel like we get to see Ginny’s personality shine here in ways that we haven’t gotten to see before. So she is currently flicking Dungbombs at the door downstairs, behind which the Order meeting is happening. She’s trying to test if the door has been Imperturbed; Tonks taught her how to do this, which really adds to the cool vibe here. And the funny part of this is that when Molly comes to get them for dinner, she asks, “Why were all these Dungbombs outside the door?” And Ginny just lies straight to Molly’s face and said that Crookshanks was playing with them.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It literally says Ginny lied “unblushingly.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: She had that justification ready, because she knows her mom.

Eric: Well, this raises so many questions to me. One, why doesn’t Ginny just pick up the Dungbombs after herself? Two, why don’t they go off? You throw a Dungbomb at a door; I understand it bounces off, but it doesn’t lay on a pillow. It hits the floor. Why doesn’t it explode? Does it have to be ignited? How do Dungbombs work? I don’t know.

Laura: I don’t know.

Andrew: In terms of the Dungbomb pieces being on the floor, that house is pretty darn messy, so I actually am surprised Molly is even batting an eye at it, unless Ron and Hermione had cleaned it up previously and suddenly they’re there again. But you could have blamed this on Kreacher, too.

Laura: Well, that’s kind of what Molly does. She says, “Oh, I thought it might have been Kreacher. He keeps leaving weird things laying around.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: It’s the perfect cover! There’s a lot of people in that house.

Eric: It reminds me of the gift that Kreacher gives Harry. What is it, a maggot-ridden something something? It’s like, “Oh, what if he thinks that’s actually a nice gift?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, on a related note, Eric, Ron notes that Kreacher is a nutter whose life’s ambition is to have his head mounted on the wall like his mother.

Eric: [laughs] Funny Ron is back, everybody.

Laura: [laughs] I know.

Eric: I thoroughly enjoy Ron in this chapter. I really do.

Laura: Hermione in this moment does what Hermione does best, and says, “Hey, you’ve got to be nice to him. It’s not his fault that he’s a little odd. Can you quite blame him?” And the reality is, we don’t even know the half of it yet.

Eric: Nope.

Laura: I mean, we’re going to find out next book what makes Kreacher as weird and demented as he is. But I also want to see if we can get a foreshadowing alert every time someone is dismissive of or disgusted towards Kreacher, because I really feel like these moments stack on each other and ultimately lead to Kreacher’s betrayal of Sirius.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Laura: … so Hermione says, “And it’s not just me, Dumbledore says we should be kind to Kreacher too.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And Dumbledore gives this acknowledgement to Harry at the end of the book. When Harry is raging about how Kreacher did what he did, Dumbledore is like, “Kreacher acted that way because of how he’s been treated his entire life, in large part by Sirius.” So we have this nice bookend here at the beginning and the end, really showing that Kreacher is a product of the society and the environment that he’s lived in. And I just want to ask, why does no one listen to Hermione when she has these nuggets of wisdom early? There’s this. We’re going to get the Eileen Prince connection in the next book, and Harry is going to be like, “Ah, the Half-Blood Prince couldn’t be a woman.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Prince, Hermione! Prince! Purple Rain! Prince! Not a woman!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Pretty sure that’s a direct quote, right?

Andrew: I think in talking about house-elves previously, maybe in our Goblet of Fire discussions, Ron, and to I guess some extent Harry, and definitely other characters in the wizarding world, they’re trying to unlearn everything they know about house-elves. Hermione is trying to make them unlearn these things, and I think it’s very difficult for them to do that. I mean, they grew up – Ron did – thinking that house-elves are housekeepers, and they work for us, and that’s that. That’s just the way it is, kid.

Micah: Well, presumably Kreacher was the only living thing inside of this house when the Order showed up, so Dumbledore is probably thinking, “Let’s treat him with a little bit of respect here, because who knows what kind of information he could have?”

Laura: Why couldn’t they have had their meetings at the Room of Requirement at Hogwarts? I’m just saying.

Andrew: [laughs] They don’t want to be in Hogwarts more than they already have to. Not the adults, anyway. I think Kreacher could just potentially cause more havoc in the house, so they don’t want to rock that boat too much.

Laura: Yeah, for sure. Well, speaking of havoc in the house, we also do get to see Snape briefly. As he’s leaving this meeting, Ron notes that Snape never eats dinner with them, thank God…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … but he’s definitely showing up to these meetings with some really valuable intel. We can even tell that members of the Order can’t quite contain themselves but to keep murmuring amongst themselves in the hall as they’re filtering out where they see Snape’s greasy head, as they’re peering down from the top of the stairs. But I’m wondering if we had any thoughts when we were first reading this about what Snape was doing here, because I think that’s a question that’s playing on all the kids’ minds. Like, “Why is he here? Why are we trusting him to be in this organization that’s trying to fight Voldemort?”

Andrew: I hated it. I hated it.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I didn’t have any theories, but it was just so uncomfortable seeing Snape in this place, being basically in cahoots with the trio, which is something we haven’t seen. It just made me feel uncomfortable. And in these close quarters?

Eric: I never hate Snape more than when he baits Sirius throughout the book.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But otherwise, I give them the benefit of the doubt. But except for that. That’s not good.

Andrew: Laura, did you have any guesses when you were reading?

Laura: I think at this point, I really believed that Snape was on the right side of history, and it felt to me like a red herring. But then when we get into the next book, we can talk about how when I got to the end of that one, I was like, “Oh, shoot, was I wrong?”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, our girl Tonks is a little bit clumsy, and this chapter wraps with Tonks knocking over the very heavy troll leg umbrella holder, which is really weird to imagine every time I see it described. [laughs]

Andrew: I think it’s in the movie, too, isn’t it?

Laura: Is it? I don’t remember.

Andrew: No?

Micah: Well, the prop may be in the movie, but this scene isn’t, and I was going to bring up, it’s such a huge miss to not have included this. Now, somewhere… maybe I’m misremembering. Did they initially look to include Mrs. Black in the films, but maybe…? We just watched the movie. I should remember if they actually just have the curtains in front, but they never obviously open up, which would have been a very fun moment.

Andrew: Surprise! I don’t remember if we even saw the curtains.

Laura: No, I don’t feel like they touched on any of her portrait at all, or even alluded to it. But it is a huge miss, because this is a great scene. Tonks knocks this troll leg over, creates quite a din, and this is when Harry learns why it is that everybody has to be so quiet in the entry hall. These curtains fly open, and this portrait of this woman screaming just foul things at all the people in her home – her eyes are rolling, she’s drooling – and all of a sudden, Sirius Black comes out of the kitchen and yanks the curtain shut, telling her to shut up, turns to Harry, and says, “Hello, Harry, I see you’ve met my mother.” [laughs] And I remember laughing out loud at this line when I read it.

Eric: It’s great.

Andrew: Perfect ending.

Laura: Because she’s also… yeah, she’s shouting horrible things at Sirius as he’s coming to get her to shut up. I mean, like “Shame of my flesh” and “Filth” and all this other nasty stuff.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s so good. It’s such a great ending.

Micah: I did do a quick search, and it does look like there’s a shot of Kreacher walking in front of a closed portrait.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Micah: And we do hear him muttering in the films, talking to Mrs. Black, but we never get, obviously, that official introduction. But I did also want to call out… Laura, you mentioned this severed troll’s leg stand. It is important to get a sense of what kind of house we’re in, the fact that they do have this type of piece of furniture within their home. And then it’s mentioned all of the former house-elf heads are mounted on the wall. We’re not in the nicest of places here.

Andrew and Eric: No.

Andrew: That’s gross.

Eric: Again, do you think that if they had any choice of venue, they would be here? Choose to be here? No. This is… unfortunately, for whatever reason, this is the only place they’ve got.

Andrew: And that foot did make an appearance in the movies. I don’t know if this picture I shared in our Discord is from the set tour, but they did create it for the movie, and it’s foul. And doesn’t that smell? And who wants to look at those nasty toenails? Blegh.

Micah: They’re like Voldemort toenails, except bigger.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, they are. That’s wild.

Laura: No, it is giving the same vibe as hunters having stuffed versions of exotic animals around their house and animal heads mounted to walls.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: It shows their perspective on the larger wizarding world. But I do think we need to Max Mrs. Black for the TV show.

Laura: Yeah, we need that.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Eric: I would be okay if they didn’t Max Mrs. Black, if a whole series comes and goes and we don’t get it, because what point does it serve? It’s just another grim thing going on in this grim, old place.

Micah: Well, just so Sirius could say, “I see you’ve met my mother.”

Eric: “I see you’ve met my mother,” yeah.

Andrew: And then it ends on sitcom laughter. [laughs exaggeratedly] Commercial break.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We need a Max series, How I Met Sirius’s Mother, and told backwards from this point forward.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: See, I don’t know if we need that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I think we do. [laughs]

Laura: No, I think it’ll be important to include because it really sets up Sirius’s character in this story and why isolation drives him to do what he does. Isolation is such a huge theme in this book.


Lynx Line


Laura: Well, we did also turn to our Slug Club patrons over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast for our Lynx Line this week; this is our newest benefit on Patreon, where we are asking our Slug Club level patrons a question specifically tailored to that week’s episode. So this week, we asked, “Name a person in Harry Potter, or in real life or in other fiction, living or dead, who you wish you had as a living portrait in your home. Ideally, it’ll be someone much nicer than Sirius’s mom.” And we asked people to please let us know why they would want that portrait installed in their home. So I figured in host order, we could just read through these.

Andrew: Rachel said,

“Of Harry Potter characters, I’d have to say Sirius or Luna. Historical figures, probably Moses or Joan of Arc. People from my own life, my grandmother or the counselor I had in college.”

Andrew and Laura: Aw.

Andrew: Eric, Stephanie’s?

Laura: Do you want to get Stephanie’s, Eric?

Eric: Yeah, sorry. And Stephanie says,

“I love the idea of having a really good chef or baker on the wall, like Nadia from The Great British Bake Off. Put her in your kitchen and never have to google substitutions for ingredients or how to make a puff pastry.”

I think this is a great hack. I want Gordon Ramsay on my… well, maybe not.

Andrew: It’s like an Alexa.

Laura: Yeah, that sounds really stressful, Eric. Gordon Ramsay?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: I just want him to curse at me all the time. [laughs]

Laura: Do you want him to be like British cooking show Gordon Ramsay or American cooking show Gordon Ramsay?

Eric: Oh, straight up Hell’s Kitchen.

Laura: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Eric: Yeah, or Kitchen Nightmares.

Laura: Because he’s different, depending on which audience he’s performing to. [laughs]

Eric: That’s fascinating. I don’t know how to feel about that, actually. No, I’m ready for him to… because you know the meme-ified Gordon Ramsay stuff where he says really funny stuff, like “This squid is so undercooked, it’s still telling SpongeBob ‘[censored] off'”?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Sorry for the swear. I want that on a portrait.

Micah: Jennifer says,

“Hmm… this is a tough one. I’d love to have a portrait of P!nk, because she can sing, dance, and also give some great advice.”

Andrew: That’s cool.

Eric: Oh, that’s a good hack too.

Laura: I love that. Love the idea of having a pop icon in your home, just like, “Pink, can I have some advice?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Aw.

Laura: Paxton says,

“I would want one of Fred Weasley! In addition to always being around to make me and others laugh, I feel like he would do his best to keep an eye on the house and protect everyone. Also, his death is one of the ones that broke my heart the most, and by having his portrait, he can live on in a way.”

Andrew: Jeff said,

“I would choose my Great Aunt Harriet, who passed away in 2018 at the age of 97. She was 67 years older than me, but I was closer to her than anybody else in my family; we shared a love of books, including Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.”

Nice answer, Jeff.

Laura: That’s so lovely.

Eric: Yeah, I love that. Breann says,

Harry Potter-related… Minerva McGonagall, I love how real she is about everything. Plus, she’s super knowledgeable, and I feel like she could give a great pep talk if needed. For fun, Dave Matthews. The man can sing, play the guitar, and say the most off the wall things that will certainly make you laugh. In-home concerts? Yes, please. Dave’s commentary on the craziness of today’s world? Yes, please.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I can actually do that for you, Breann. Here we go; here’s my Dave Matthews impression. [imitates Dave Matthews singing]

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: There you go.

Laura: It’s the same thing.

Andrew: Yeah!

Eric: Andrew, would you have Bruce?

Andrew: I would have you three, because I want you three in my lives more.

Eric: Ohh!

Laura: Aww.

Eric: Infinite MuggleCasts! Oh, I love that.

Micah: You don’t edit us enough?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Are you sure you wouldn’t put curtains in front of all of us just to make us shut up sometimes? [laughs]

Andrew: Well, and I think that’s one part of this question that would have been fun, too, for listeners. Like, “And you do have a curtain, so if you want Gordon Ramsay in your house, that’s nice, but you can shut him off, so no worries. He won’t get too… if he gets too annoying, you can shut him up.”

Micah: Leah says,

“Luna. I feel like she always has something interesting to say. She’d have a unique commentary to break up mundane day-to-day tasks. Remember her Quidditch commentary? Imagine that playing while doing chores; she would add humor and interest to everything.”

Laura: Agreed. Actually, I feel like if I had to pick a Harry Potter character, I would pick Luna as well. I’m still thinking about who I would want as a real life person.

Eric: I would pick Dumbledore. Oh, sorry to interrupt, but I would pick Dumbledore, and then during a reread, I would look up and I’d go, “Are you serious with this?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: And he’d have to defend himself.

Laura: You would confront him with the receipts.

Eric: Oh, oh, yeah.

Laura: Be like, “Sir, where were you?”

Eric: “Sir,” yeah.

Laura: Amy said,

“Personally, I’d love to have my mom on hand for her great wisdom and compassion. But seriously, since you said we can choose people who are alive, how cool would it be to have our four favorite hosts on hand for conversation and laughs?”

Eric: There it is.

Laura: Amy, that’s so sweet.

Andrew: Good answer, Amy. Free month of Patreon for you.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: You already let us into your house once a week with new episodes!

Andrew: That’s a good point.

Laura: So this is quite an honor. [laughs]

Andrew: Zachary said,

“I would love to have a portrait of George Carlin; his commentary on life today would be unimaginable. I would also love a portrait of my Pop; to this day, he’s been all of his grandkids’ number one fan, and continues to help me with daily advice on life and fatherhood and parenting in general.”

Good answer.

Eric: That’s awesome. Julianne says,

“I’ll take a scrolling portrait (like a digital picture frame) with all my book boyfriends, please. We can start with Charlie Weasley, but if we can expand to all fantasy books, I’d like to add Xaden Riorson, Kingfisher, and Cassian.”

Okay.

Laura: [laughs] Yep. Yeah, I think the book boyfriends is a good call. I agree on some of this.

Eric: That’s really… that’s interesting.

Laura: Greta has a very wholesome one. She says,

“Molly Weasley. She’d be the closest equivalent to Alexa when it comes to home-related questions and spells, and she could give you advice on your choice of outfit for the day or tell you what to bring to a dinner party.”

Love that.

Andrew: Carly said,

“Leslie Jordan. He was an absolute icon and amazing human being; I would love to hear his commentary on a daily basis.”

Eric: Aw. Noelle says,

“Phineas Nigellus Black for sure. He’s got portraits in plenty of places I’d want to spy on, and he’d probably yell at me if I got distracted while working. Having portraits of my own family up, on the other hand… I can relate to poor Sirius in not appreciating that.”

Laura: Aww. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, wow. But yeah, somebody who can hassle you whenever you begin to meander and not do your work would be wild. That’s a wild accountability buddy.

Micah: Yeah. Sara says,

“In real life, I’d want my dad or grandma’s portrait. A useful portrait would be a doctor or nurse to help give you advice. And then in the wizarding world, I’d also like a healer, or maybe someone like McGonagall or Dumbledore for life advice.”

Laura: I feel like having a doctor as a portrait in my house, it would be like WebMD on steroids. My health paranoia would reach all new levels.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I’d constantly be going to the doctor portrait and being like, “I don’t know; my pinky feels weird. What do you think it means?” It’d be terrible.

Andrew: “You have three days to live.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, oh my God. Still, I think we’ve cracked free healthcare on this episode.

Andrew: If they can operate on you and prescribe medication and all that, yeah.

Eric: Oh, well, I guess… okay, I guess not.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It’s the V1. It’s the V1.

Andrew: Free Telehealth.

Eric: Yeah, it’s the V1. Maybe a therapist. Maybe my therapist. I’ll get a portrait made of my therapist.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Catherine says, “I mean, I wouldn’t mind a portrait of Henry Cavill up for perpetuity…”

Andrew: Hey now.

Laura: Yeah, good taste, Catherine.

Andrew: Hannah said,

“Wow, where to start? Do you want knowledge, entertainment, or memory? Right now, I would have to say one of my favorite musical artists, Josh Groban, so he can sing and I would never need a radio or Spotify playlist again.”

Eric: Jen says,

“I would love to have my Nana’s portrait in my house. I was very close to her growing up. She passed a number of years ago, and I would love to get to hear her voice and see her smile again. She also passed before I had my kids, so I’d love her to meet them, albeit in portrait form.”

Andrew and Laura: Aww.

Eric: I agree with that. That’s really sweet.

Laura: That’s a really beautiful sentiment. And to really bring us home here, Barry says,

“Honestly, none. I have enough smart home devices watching me; I don’t need a portrait that can share its opinions on my life choices.”

Oh man, imagine if Google and Alexa could talk independently.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]


MVP of the Week


Laura: All right, and replacing our old MVP of the Week segment, we also are customizing these pick a character of the week segments to something specific to the chapter. And I think we can all agree that Percy Weasley is the worst Weasley, but I want to give y’all a challenge and basically make this easy for myself, so I’m asking y’all, who’s the worst Weasley? Except I already picked Percy, so you have to pick someone else.

Eric: Great. Okay.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to the Weasley twins. I’m putting them together, because spying is wrong.

Eric: Oh my God, you hypocrite.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Okay, I’m going to… you know what? Mine is not better. I’m going to give mine to Arthur for not doing more to get the family some money.

Laura: Oof.

Eric: Clearly, they resent you for it. Gosh.

Micah: I’m going with Molly triple down here. Stop the mollycoddling of these kids.

Eric: Oh my…

Micah: Harry is 15 years old. He was bar mitzvah’ed two years ago. He’s a grown man in the eyes of the wizarding community. Enough is enough.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: He’s faced more than you ever hoped to.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And Molly is like, “Um, my brothers were killed in the last war?” [laughs]

Andrew: Aw. Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And we have a bit of news: Our traditional phone number is now being retired, in part because…

Eric: Did you not pay the bill? Did we forget?

Andrew: We may have forgotten to renew it, and Google said, “You know what? We’re not giving it to you, and you can’t have it back.” But you know what? It’s for the best, because the phone calls are not very good quality.

Micah: No.

Andrew: We still have access to all the voicemails, by the way, so if you have called in, we have had them; we do listen to them. But the voice… let’s enter 2024 fully. Voice Memos only. Peace and love.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You know what it is, too, is just it’s really obnoxious to keep the line going. In theory, it sounds like it’s easy, right? You just have to remember to make a call from it or send a text message. But who’s paying attention to that? Clearly, not me.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, clearly not you! That’s why we lost it! And honestly, it was just fun to say, “1-920-3-MUGGLE.” Like, it’s cool “Muggle” was in the phone number.

Eric: It will live on.

Laura: Yeah. Pour one out.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: We’ve long said that voice memos are preferred, emailed to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and that’s been the case; the quality is much better. So think of it as a real attempt at quality improvement.

Laura: So I wonder what’s going to happen, though, because you know some people still have this number saved…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … so when this number goes to someone else, are they going to get random phone calls from people talking about Harry Potter?

Micah: I hope so.

Eric: Yeah, I’m going to become that person’s best friend.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m going to call right now. Oh, it just immediately… oh, it says “User busy” when you try to call it right now.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Who’s tying up our line?

Andrew: Yeah, immediate “Doo-doo-doo.” Google’s just put it on lockdown; it’s going to go to some phone number graveyard. Well, anyway, next week we will discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 5, “The Order of the Phoenix”! This book’s namesake.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for everybody’s favorite trivia show – Google will never take this away from us – Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What well-kept lawn in London has been home to a zebra, an elephant, and a helicopter landing pad? The correct answer was the lawn at Buckingham Palace, of course! Fun factoids about that. And 55% of people said they didn’t look up the correct answer that they got correct, and the winners are as follows: Buckbeak waiting for Harry to come upstairs and say hi… aw, okay. Hi to my Ravenclaw husband; Horton Hears a Helicopter; I would tell you, but Dumbledore made me swear not to…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … Kelsey; Merlin’s missing buttock; The sniffler that got loose in Buckingham Palace; and Yoshie. And congrats to everyone that submitted. And here is – I’m particularly proud of this next one – next week’s question: In honor of the portrait of Walburga Black, what famous artist and sculptor was given an exclusive license in 2014 to use a material known as Blackest Black? Walburga would be very happy with this person. And please submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. And also, you’re able to find it if you’re on the MuggleCast website, checking out transcripts or anything else, by clicking “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you, dear listener. We are as independent as Percy is isolated from the rest of his family in this chapter…

Eric and Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: … so your financial support is of the utmost importance. In fact, listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting, and we now have three great ways to help us out. If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. For even more benefits, visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, Lynx Line participation, a physical gift, a video message from one of the four of us made just for you, access to our private Facebook and Discord groups, and more. And then number three, visit MuggleCastMerch.com for all of our brand new merchandise. Laura, earlier in the recording, we had a request. LegalizeGillyweed wondered if we should start selling your pants. And for anybody who doesn’t know, who’s probably really alarmed right now…

Eric: Oh my God.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … it was a running joke about your pants way back in the day.

Laura: Yeah, and I don’t think that you’ve said anything to assuage people’s concerns.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, to make it sound less random.

Laura: Yeah, no. TLDR, y’all, the story is I left a pair of my pants in our hotel room in Los Angeles when we were there for the 2006 Podcast Awards. Eric very kindly carried them home and mailed them back to me, and during a much earlier episode of MuggleCast, in the middle of the recording, Eric just goes, “Laura, did you get your pants?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You know, sometimes these thoughts come to me and they’re fleeting, and I gotta check.

Micah: You gotta check it off the list; otherwise…

Eric: You gotta do it. Micah, thank you for understanding.

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: We will also start selling a MuggleCast notepad where people can put their thoughts down and then share these thoughts when the time is right!

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, I get it. Y’all are going to go in on a Christmas gift for me, and it’s going to be that notepad to all of my…

Andrew and Micah: Thoughts.

Eric: Yeah, okay.

Andrew: Now Laura, I mean, we can sell pants. I’m looking at the options right now. We got some… we have choices.

Eric: Let’s just say “Laura’s” on them.

Andrew: “Laura’s pants,” I think it should…

Eric: Custom-made Laura’s pants.

Laura: [laughs] I mean, listen, I’m all about the marketing push, but I will say, if I recall correctly, the particular pants in question were Gaucho pants. They were very popular at the time, and not to say that they’re an unfortunate fashion choice in general; I’ll just say they were an unfortunate fashion choice for me, so I don’t know if I recommend us doing an exact replica pant.

Andrew: Of course, of course.

Laura: Is there something more stylish? [laughs]

Eric: Do you still have them?

Laura: No.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Some joggers, maybe. Joggers, leggings…

Laura: Honestly, joggers, leggings, or sweats. Those are all me vibes.

Andrew: Perfect. Okay.

Laura: Comfy pants.

Andrew: And we’ll put “Laura’s pants” down the side, and then we’ll put a picture of your face on the backside?

Laura: Oh, no, don’t do that. [laughs]

Andrew: Okay, never mind.

Laura: I don’t want…

Andrew: But I think it’d be awesome if it said “Laura’s pants” down the side…

Eric: Yeah, down the side. Absolutely.

Andrew: … and then the mic bolt on the other side.

Laura: Yeah, I’m fine with that. I’ll be very surprised if anyone buys a pair, but let’s just see what happens.

Andrew: You see the people in the Discord? They’re buying it.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: LegalizeGillyweed is at least one customer for you right there.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Wow. I really appreciate the support.

Andrew: We’ll get working on this, y’all. Stay tuned.

Eric: Yeah, we’re on it.

Andrew: This is very exciting. All right, so those are the three ways to help us out.

[Everyone laugh]

Andrew: Buying Laura’s pants is priority number one. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and leave a five star review in your favorite podcast app. We couldn’t do this without you all, so thank you so much for your support and your listenership. That does it for this week’s episode of the show. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #677

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #677, Lawn Enthusiast Dumbledore (OOTP Chapter 3, The Advance Guard)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, keep your wand out of your back pocket so you don’t blow your buttocks off! We are discussing Chapter 3 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Advance Guard.” And to help us with today’s discussion, we’re joined by one of our Slug Club patrons, MuggleCast listener Katie! Hi, Katie. Welcome to the show.

Katie: Thank you! Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Andrew: We’re excited to have you. We’re excited your plants are making a cameo on today’s podcast as well.

[Katie laughs]

Andrew: Katie is hailing from the beautiful northwest. And can we get your fandom ID?

Katie: Absolutely. Well, you can get most of it. So my favorite book is Prisoner of Azkaban, and I very much do not have a favorite movie. I was just telling Micah, if I were to pick one, it would just be out of the hat, and so I’m not going to. I actually have really not watched the movies that often; I’m really, really a book reader. So I’m not going to pick one, but if I had to, it would be whatever one I watched most recently, which is Goblet of Fire with the movie commentary, so there you go.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Love it.

Andrew: Good answer.

[Andrew and Katie laugh]

Katie: My Patronus is a wolf. My Hogwarts House is Gryffindor. I feel like those are tied together somehow, but I’m not quite sure how. And my favorite Order of the Phoenix member, up through this point, is Remus Lupin.

Andrew: Okay. Do you think…? Do the movies just sort of let you down as a reader, as a big Harry Potter reader? Is that why you’re…?

Katie: No, I like them. I love them. I just, in general, read more than I watch any media. I’m always behind on TV shows, movies, everything like that. But I read a ton.

Andrew: So on a scale of one to ten, how excited are you for the Harry Potter TV show? Do you not care?

Katie: Oh, I’m really excited. No, I’ll watch that, yeah, for sure.

Andrew: Okay. All right, sweet. It should be more loyal to the book too. At least, that’s what we’re hoping for.

Katie: We can hope. We can hope.

Andrew: Well, welcome again, Katie. Thank you for your support on Patreon, and it’s great to have you. Before we get into Chapter by Chapter, the day after we recorded last week’s episode, Maggie Smith, who played Professor McGonagall in the Harry Potter films, passed away. Died on September 27 at the age of 89 years old. This one hurt a lot of people, I think, because Maggie Smith has felt like a motherly figure to many fans, in part because of her role as Minerva McGonagall, but also she’s had such a storied career, film career, including in Downton Abbey, both the TV show and the two movies. I was a huge fan of her in the Downton Abbey series. And obviously, she’s just an amazing actress as well.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: The first thing I saw her in was Hook in the early 1990s, and they actually aged her up for that. I’m so glad that we got several more decades with her.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: She’s an incredible talent. And I will say, I heard the news when my mom texted me first thing in the morning with the news article, and I responded to it by just being like, “No!” It’s such a bummer, because you’re not expecting it, right? When someone gets older, you know that time is going to come eventually, but you don’t expect the day that it happens to be the day, right?

Andrew: And you don’t even want to think about it happening, even though it feels inevitable.

Laura: No, you don’t. And we hadn’t heard anything about her health recently, so I think that adds to the feeling of shock that comes with it. But I will say, I have absolutely loved all of the Downton Abbey “Best of” moments coming out with her.

Eric: Oh my God, the supercuts they make. [laughs]

Laura: What an incredible homage to her. She was just a phenomenal talent, and yeah, we’re worse off without her.

Andrew: Yeah, she is so funny in Downton Abbey. And I mean, to your point, Laura, about being a shock, she had a very active career up until the last couple of years. I mean, I mentioned Downton Abbey the movies; Downton Abbey: A New Era came out in 2022, only two years ago.

Micah: Yeah, I think I first saw her in Sister Act. That was my introduction to her, as Mother Superior. And she was just… as we saw in other roles she played, including in Downton Abbey, just the wit, the sarcasm, it came through as McGonagall, too, for sure. And it’s going to be hard – we talk about this a lot with the upcoming TV show – to separate the actors from the movies and whomever is going to take their part in the TV show, because so many iconic British actors and actresses portrayed these roles. It’s really British royalty of acting that was in so many of these Harry Potter films. So I just, as was stated, enjoyed the time we got to watch her, because she was really, really good.

Andrew: Yeah. And speaking of British royalty, people on social media pointed this sad fact out: Michael Gambon, who played Dumbledore in most of the Harry Potter movies, actually died exactly one year prior to Maggie Smith. He passed away on September 27, 2023. Kind of eerie that they died exactly a year apart. Well, rest in peace, Maggie Smith, and thank you for everything you gave Harry Potter fans and all your contributions to the Harry Potter film series. We will not be forgetting you anytime soon, in part because we still love the Harry Potter movies very much and everything you contributed to them.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: So let’s move on to Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 3, “The Advance Guard.” And first, we’re going to hop in our Time-Turner, right, Eric?

Eric: That’s right! We last spoke of Chapter 3, “The Advance Guard,” on Episode 435, which was on September 23, 2019; and before that, on Episode 229, which was May 27, 2011.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 229.

Micah: Last part of the chapter, they all arrive safely at Grimmauld Place. “Headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix,” is what it says on the paper that Harry gets.

Eric: Yeah, paper.

Andrew: Hmm.

Eric: Hmm, interesting.

Andrew: Pen and paper, hmm.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Priorities.

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 435.

Andrew: I like how Mad-Eye cleans his eye like beer pong players clean their ping pong balls.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Just throw it in the cup, swish it around a little bit, it’ll be fine. There won’t be hair in your beer the next time it lands in a cup.

[Laura laughs]

Cristina: You know, it’s funny; we never find out what happens to that glass of water afterwards.

Eric: [laughs] It’s just sitting on the dining room table.

Andrew: You know Petunia would put that in the dishwasher.

Laura: Immediately, yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: This foreign glass.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Andrew: That’s a pretty funny bit. I forgot we had discussed that.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Were you going to bring it up again? Because it’s still funny. [laughs]

Andrew: No, no, I’m glad we played that, because I totally forgot about that. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Well, and actually, shout-out to the Slug Club member Christina, who helped us on that earlier episode. And Katie, welcome, welcome.

Katie: I listened to that episode, actually, earlier today, and… big shoes to fill. It was a great conversation.

Andrew: Oh, really? Aw, love that.

Katie: Christina was great.

Laura: Look at this preparation.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Unbelievable. This is exactly the kind of preparation that we lack and love.

Micah: It’s more preparation than I did.

Eric: Yes.

[Andrew and Katie laugh]

Micah: The sound effect, though, the warping sound effect; they actually use that in Cursed Child. Is that where you got it from, Eric?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No?

Micah: No, it’s just I’d recently seen it.

Eric: Is it really?

Micah: Yeah, when they go back in time, there’s this really cool effect that happens on the stage, and that’s the sound they use.

Eric: That’s the exact one?

Andrew: Is it the exact same? It can’t be the exact same.

Micah: I mean, it’s pretty close.

Eric: Well, okay, because there’s obviously different… it’s from FreeSound.org, and it’s…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: No, really.

Andrew: I heard the budget was tight for Cursed Child.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: A.k.a. the Lyric Theater.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: So a lot happened in the last chapter; a lot was revealed in the last chapter, and we start this chapter with Harry feeling really further alienated than he probably did prior. And one of the things that jumped out to me right away was just his treatment of Hedwig. With everything that he’s going through, he really could use a friend in this moment, and his first thought is he needs to get letters out to Sirius and Ron and Hermione. He really wants to make them feel guilty for everything that he’s going through. Sure, now there must be a response that’s going to come back to him, but he doesn’t have the means to which to send the letter. And I feel like we’ve probably all been in similar situations before where we’ve taken something out on somebody who doesn’t deserve it, and Hedwig is the one who feels the brunt of this particular situation.

Eric: He doesn’t even let her get her dinner. She’s brought… what is it, a frog in?

Micah: A frog.

Eric: And he’s like, “You drop that down, and you go take these three letters to people!”

Laura: How rude.

Andrew: And it’s even worse when you have to take it out on your pet, on your beloved pet. I mean, that’s when things are really bad, when you have to take out your anger on your pet. But yeah, I’ve been in this situation; I’ve carried grudges, and then I let it get in the way of how I treat other people. But I try to check myself; I try to realize that they’re not the actual problem, and I need to let things go instead of holding these grudges that I hold for way too long.

Eric: Yeah, and I think Hedwig has had her share of times when she’s pecked at Harry and sassed him a little bit. She’s a bit temperamental herself, so maybe this is karmaic? But I just feel devastated at the thought of Sirius, Hermione, and Ron’s hands, you guys. Hands! He instructs Hedwig; he says, “You peck their hands until they write a sufficiently long reply.” What is it with damaged hands in this book?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: My God, Harry is a mini Umbridge here.

Laura: You think it’s foreshadowing?

Eric: Well, I think it’s terrifying. I think it’s painful.

Laura: It is such an interesting connecting the threads moment, because he’s literally asking for Hedwig to do that while they are writing, to make them write nice, long responses, and then, of course, Umbridge’s punishment of Harry is when he is writing.

Eric: Well, and Ron and Hermione have already told Harry that Dumbledore will not let them say much, and he clearly glosses over that fact when he’s like, “You’ve got to damage their hands until they write me long and well back.” What are they going to do? They can’t do anything! Hedwig is just going to have to attack… Hedwig hasn’t even eaten.

Andrew: He doesn’t really know that at this time, though, that they can’t do anything. I mean, he’s so in the dark. They do explain this in the next chapter, but at this moment, he’s just like, “Why are they ignoring me?”

Eric: Well, I think it’s in their letter. I think it’s in the letters they have sent him already that they can’t say much.

Katie: Either way, I picture it… even if they are trying to write him a longer letter, “I’m so sorry; we can’t explain,” but they’re literally pen in hand and Hedwig is still pecking. The letters get all messed up. They’re trying to write the letters. I mean, I don’t really know how that would have worked anyway if she’s pecking at their hands.

Eric: She’s just trying to do her duty. Yeah, he made her skip dinner. She’s hungry.

Laura: Yeah. I also think it’s just unfortunately common, like we talked about here at the top, to take things out on the people closest to you when you’re having a hard time, and a lot of times it’s not even intentional. I’ll put it out there and say I had some tough times in the last couple of years, and I have to imagine that I was not a terribly easy person to live with when I was going through some tough times, and I think that’s what Harry is seeing here.

Eric: Apology accepted, Laura, by the way.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, okay, is this how we’re revealing that we’ve secretly been roommates for the entire time?

Eric: Yeah, we were on an episode of… we did that whole season of Big Brother together.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: No, but it’s true. Look, who among us has not done this? Maybe not quite so intense. I still just… I feel really bad for Harry here, because he’s just not in a good place. Like Micah said, he’s worse than he ever was now that something exciting has happened and continually he’s been pushed back into the dark.

Micah: He has. But Andrew, you’re happy, though, that Harry is a take charge person in this chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, yeah, because I mean, the chapter just straight up opens up with what he writes to Sirius and Ron and Hermione. “I’ve just been attacked by Dementors and I might be expelled from Hogwarts. I want to know what’s going on and when I’m going to get out of here.” Period. Blunt. Straight to the point. He’s had it. I just love the tone that he strikes right there.

Laura: Honestly, I could see that being a Slack message you send to everyone, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Be like, “I’ve had it!” [laughs]

Eric: @channel. @here.

Andrew: [laughs] @here: “I’ve just been attacked by Dementors, and I still need to edit the darn podcast. I might be expelled from MuggleCast if you don’t get me these files soon. I want to know what’s going on. Where are the files?”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: “Where are the show notes?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: That hits too close to home.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I wasn’t going to say it.

Laura: Yeah, I wasn’t directly attacking anyone. I was just going down the checklist of things Andrew needs to be able to produce the show.

Eric: Yeah. Hey, listen, it takes a lot.

Andrew: Hey, while we’re on the subject, Eric, you have show notes this upcoming Tuesday. Do you know that? Just checking.

Eric: Thank you, thank you.

Micah: And going back to Harry, it’s a bit ironic that having been isolated for so much of the summertime, in this moment where he could have somebody who does mean something to him and is close to him, he chooses to isolate himself even further in his actions by sending Hedwig away.

Eric: He’s got no choice if he wants answers, and has to ask for them, though, because she’s his only way to do that to get them.

Micah: It’s true, but I’m just not sure what he’s expecting to receive in return that’s going to be any different from what he got previously.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, not from Ron or Hermione. There’s no way they can properly explain anything more than anything, but an adult? Sirius, maybe? But…

Micah: Well, to make matters worse, Hedwig doesn’t return. She’s like, “Screw you, Harry. I’m taking my frog, I might go pick up a few more frogs on the way, and you are just going to suck it up at Privet Drive for the next couple of days.”

Eric: [laughs] Do you think it’s possible that when she arrives, they’re like, “We get it,” and they just… they’re saying, “We can’t write you a sufficient reply that you’ll like, but we’re going to go get him.”

Micah: “But Molly is cooking in the kitchen, so go enjoy yourself.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, exactly. I feel like at that point they would have said to Hedwig, “Look, we know he’s pissed. Just hold on and he’ll be here.”

Andrew: “Just stay here with us and we’re going to go and grab him in a couple days.”

Micah: You think they held her captive? Like, Hedwig is trying to squirm away, and Ron and Hermione are holding her down?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, I do love the idea of them having to keep her in a room because she keeps trying to bite their hands. I like that idea.

Micah: Or they Stun her and say, “Don’t worry.”

Eric: That’s too soon.

Laura: Although, I don’t know; I could also see her being fed up with the whole situation, and showing up there and being like, “You know what? I’m going to roost here. Y’all go pick him up, because I don’t want to deal with him.”

Micah: So it ends up being four days before anything of significance actually happens, and Harry’s anger, his confusion, his paranoia, is entering next level territory. Nobody’s telling him what’s going on. And I know I’ve experienced this many times; your irrational mind just starts to spiral. Do we think this was the right move by Dumbledore? Should he have come for Harry the night of the Dementor attack?

Eric: Ooh.

Micah: Or in fairness to Dumbledore, did he need time to actually implement an exit strategy for Harry without drawing suspicion from the Ministry?

Eric: Probably that.

Andrew: Yeah, given how many Advance Guard members end up being involved in this extraction, I think Dumbledore saw this as a very serious, risky situation that he wanted to be well-prepared for, and that was going to take a little bit of time. Did Dumbledore have to go and speak to Harry himself? I don’t think so. I wish he got some sort of message to him sooner, but in terms of the timing of it all, it seems acceptable to me. Again, considering how many people show up to extract Harry, that implies that they were very nervous about Ministry officials, or maybe even Voldemort getting in the way.

Eric: Absolutely. I think also the night of, or the day of, you’re not sure if that’s the final bit of the attack. Think about the lull between when the towers fell in New York; there was a brief period of time where you probably could have assumed that was the only one. Maybe that’s an extreme example, but Dumbledore would be right for assuming because Privet Drive is now… Harry is stating it’s untenable; it’s not going to work for him. Fine, they’re making other arrangements, but until he absolutely hits his breaking point that he’s doing in this chapter, it’s still the best option to keep him there. And so Dumbledore is not going to act rashly, no matter how pissed Harry might be in the moment, to remove Harry from this situation, because it’s still the safest place for him, and you don’t know what else is coming down the line. If Dementors can make it a Little Whinging, anything can.

Katie: It just seems kind of crazy to me, though. In the previous chapter, we’re seeing owls from everywhere finding the exact locations within the house and delivering new messages, and then no messages for four days. It could not have been that hard to give Harry a little bit of an update. “Hold tight; we’re coming.”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Yeah, oh, a “Sit tight” message would have been great. Signed, everybody.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Then he’s like, “All 20 of them are together without me?” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I feel like that would have made it worse. But yeah, some sort of short message to let him know help is coming sooner rather than later.

Micah: I agree with that. I think that’s the big missing piece here, is that four days is a long time, especially for somebody who is not allowed, never mind to leave his home, but probably is not leaving his room. And we know what Harry has been through up until this point this summer; we know what he went through at the end of last school year. The fact that he’s getting zero information and zero correspondence after everything that transpired the night before? To me, that suggests that Dumbledore should have stepped in and done something to make Harry just feel a little bit more comfortable. Andrew, I know you mentioned, though, that the level of the extraction, the amount of people that were asked to partake in this or volunteered to partake in this, suggests that this was a pretty big undertaking. And Eric, you agreed as well.

Eric: Yeah, as far as exit strategy, I kept going ahead to Book 7’s “Seven Potters” chapter, because the level of security, the level of precautions that we see the Advance Guard deploy in this chapter are quite similar; in fact, lesser than they end up being in Book 7. And it just really speaks to how necessary this level of precaution is, because they don’t know as much about, like, “Would Voldemort really stage an attack right now?” In Book 7, they know he’s going to, but they have to take this level of precaution. And so even though nothing happens except they get a little bit of frostbite – they’re going to lose a few toes – ultimately, this is a lot safer, but the precautions have to be in place all the same. So I think that the later chapter informs us that the precautions taken in this chapter were actually appropriate.

Laura: Yeah. Lupin also, later in this chapter, mentions that they’ve been setting up headquarters, and that that in and of itself has taken some time. And I think I mentioned this, not last week but the week before, that I could see Dumbledore not wanting Harry to be around as a potential window into the movement that was going into securing Grimmauld Place as headquarters.

Eric: It’s interesting because, what, Harry is just going to breathe in dust and Dumbledore cares a lot about…? Because all they’re doing as far as setting up is you needed the Fidelius Charm, but that had to have been in place before anyone can use headquarters. And they’re just decluttering, right? That’s all they end up doing the rest of the summer is just decluttering. So I like this idea that, “Oh, we have to set up headquarters; Harry can’t…” because he only needs to be there, what, for 24 hours on Privet Drive, we said. But at the same time, he could have come a little sooner, I think.

Laura: He could have. They’re also having a lot of very… they’re having grownup conversations that they’re very sensitive about the kids, particularly Harry, having access to, which, given the connection to Voldemort, makes a certain amount of sense to me. But I agree; there was a more careful and caring way that this could have been handled.

Eric: Yeah. It’s interesting because the reason that not only Harry, but Fred and George and everyone are highstr… all the kids want to listen in to these meetings because there’s so much hubbub around them, and Harry has been kept in the dark for so long. So maybe if they had invited him over sooner, his friendship with all the other kids… it would have had maybe a more relaxed air about it, and so they wouldn’t need to pay that much attention to what’s happening. But the big feature when they get to Grimmauld Place is “We’re not being allowed in these meetings,” and it makes it worse.

Andrew: Well, we will discuss the Dursley angle here as well as the Advance Guard themselves in a few moments, but first, this show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[Ad break]

Micah: All right, this is something that we definitely touched on a bit when we did Episode 435, but I thought it was worth revisiting, because we have talked so much about how the Dursleys treat Harry in prior discussions in Sorcerer’s Stone, in Chamber of Secrets, Prisoner of Azkaban, and Harry is being really badly mistreated here. He’s being fed through a cat flap in the door. Vernon is about to lock him in his room as they go out for the evening. He is explicitly told not to steal from the fridge; don’t touch any of their possessions. This is somebody who’s lived in their home now for the last 15 years? 14 years? This is really just nastiness, isn’t it?

Andrew: It is; it’s really rough to see. And I think it’s fair to say at this point that Harry is suffering from depression. Some of these lines really stuck out to me as signs of depression. Quote, “He could not even summon the energy to get up and turn on his bedroom light.” And this other quote, “Harry lay there in a kind of stupor, thinking of nothing, suspended in misery.”

Eric: He’s staring at the ceiling for hours at on end. He’s lost in the injustice. He’s feeling helpless. Yeah, these are all markers.

Andrew: Dark times, dark times.

Katie: And maybe it’s the helplessness and that lethargy that he’s feeling, but I was impressed in this chapter that he actually acknowledges that if he were to go venture out, then he would get into a fight with the Dursleys, and that would not be helpful, whereas last chapter, he was actively picking a fight with Dudley. So even though he is taking out some frustrations on Hedwig, I think the fact that he is aware enough to avoid that extra fight with the Dursleys I was pretty impressed with.

Eric: You’re right, Katie. That’s a great point. He’s got some perspective now!

Andrew: Well, and his temper was up in the last chapter, too, so that’s probably a factor. And I think in this chapter, he even tells himself that he will do some magic he doesn’t intend to do again, or he says he could potentially get himself in in trouble with the Ministry again. He knows he’s in the doghouse right now, so he can’t risk it. He hopes that he can go back to Hogwarts or undo what has occurred, and getting himself in more trouble is not going to help. Now, on the other hand, he’s very much in the dark, so if he acted out again against the Dursleys, I would certainly understand where that rage was coming from. Unfortunately, the Ministry would not.

Micah: But it’s not the worst thing in the world for Harry for the Dursleys to leave the house.

Andrew: No.

Micah: I’m sure that’s probably at the top of his list of things he would want during the summertime. But presumably at other times, he would be able to leave his room.

Andrew: Right.

Katie: So are we to think that the Dursleys have also been home for these four days continuously? I mean, presumably Vernon is going to work; Dudley is going out. I don’t know. Maybe Petunia has to do the shopping.

Andrew: Maybe, but also, they want to do this under the cover of darkness, I assume, as well; get Harry out of Privet Drive, so that’s going to require getting the Dursleys out of the house at night, so maybe that’s why they’ve been waiting as well. Because to your point, yeah, maybe Petunia went out for a little bit, but it’s going to be during the daytime she’s going out, presumably. I, for one, love doing my food shopping during the day, so I assume Petunia would as well.

Micah: Yeah, you two are thick as thieves.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, two peas in a pod.

Andrew: We both want our Hogwarts letter, okay? [laughs]

Micah: Well, let’s switch gears a little bit here and talk about the party that arrives to rescue Harry from Privet Drive. Thought we could kick things off with a little bit of a name origin.

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Micah: So an Advance Guard is a body of soldiers preceding and making preparations for the main body of an army, in this case, an army of one being Harry Potter. [laughs] But I did think this was cool, that they were referred to in this way, and this is what the Advance Guard represents. Now, where do we think this particular rescue attempt ranks in rescue attempts from Privet Drive?

Eric: I love this question. This is great.

Andrew: [laughs] Give us a rundown first of all the ones we know.

Micah: All right, so not exactly Privet Drive, but Hagrid shows up in Sorcerer’s Stone to rescue Harry and to tell him that he’s a wizard.

Eric: Okay, okay.

Micah: Fred and George show up via Ford Anglia in Chamber of Secrets; the accidental summoning of the Knight Bus in Prisoner of Azkaban; the Weasleys doing their best Santa impression and showing up via chimney in Goblet of Fire

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: We have the Advance Guard here showing up in Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore, the man himself, finally steps foot again on Privet Drive…

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: … after many holidays in Ibiza, in Half-Blood Prince.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And then something we’re going to talk a little bit more about later, the Seven Potters in Deathly Hallows. So this is kind of the original version of the Seven Potters; like the Seven Potters is part two.

Eric: Yeah, I would rank this in around the middle. Nobody dies. I think it gets points for the fact that nobody… or is seriously injured the way last year Dudley nearly died in that horrible manner because of Fred and George’s prank. It’s really, really nice that Harry has all of a sudden gone from nothing to finding himself surrounded by seven or eight wizards, and they’re clearly there to take care of him. From the outset, he doesn’t know who all of them are, but they’re clearly there for him, and that gives me warm feelings. I don’t know how I’d rank the others, but I’d say this is right in the middle. Do you guys agree? Katie, do you agree?

Katie: I don’t know if I agree. I think if I were Harry, I would have been questioning whether they were truly there to take care of me a little bit more. I mean, it’s like, you don’t really know how much time is passing, but it is minutes before Lupin asks Harry, “How are you?” They’re not even really calling out to him to check where he is when they first get there, and they’re not prepping him to go; they are doing their own thing. And I was just reading this chapter thinking if I were Harry, I think I would have been throwing off curses, thinking, “Are these more Dementors? Am I getting attacked again? What’s going on here?” But he accepts them very calmly, which I don’t know if that would have been my reaction.

Andrew: I think this is actually why it does rank higher for me. I don’t want to put it in a particular place in this list, but I think it ranks high because it is so interesting that Harry thought he was completely in the dark, and then all of a sudden, here’s the Advance Guard, many of them showing up at his doorstep after they successfully got the Dursleys out of their own home by tricking them into thinking they were winners in a lawn competition. And then just the angle of like, “Wait, this is the real Moody? This is bizarre for me to be interacting with the real Moody for the first time.” And then Lupin, yeah, he does take some time to speak with Harry, but Lupin is kind of like his father in the scene, because Lupin at one point does say, “Hey, don’t worry, Harry. You can trust that this is the real Moody.” And I also love – and this is at Harry’s expense, so I’m sorry, Harry – but I love that all of them are just staring at Harry when they arrive like he’s a zoo animal. [laughs]

Eric: They’re starstruck, yeah.

Laura: Some of them definitely are. I think what makes this particular jailbreak from Privet Drive unique compared to everything that came before it is this is the first time that it’s actively dangerous to be transporting Harry from Privet Drive back to the wizarding world. I feel like the examples we get in Books 1 through 4 are presented in a far more lighthearted fashion than this one is. And this really is… Book 4, Goblet, getting into Order, it really is the turning point of the series where things get really dangerous.

Eric: That’s a great point, yeah. Because Voldemort is back.

Katie: Yeah, you can use a little bit of that lightheartedness, even if you think too hard sometimes it might feel out of place, but it feels good to have a little bit of that too.

Micah: For sure. I really liked the Ford Anglia, but if I had to vote, I would say probably Dumbledore’s personal escort service would be at the top, just because of the conversation that happens in the Dursleys’ living room, and then Kreacher shows up, and it’s just so good. But I do like what’s being said. And if you look to the last jailbreak being the Seven Potters, there’s no higher risk involved, and all of those people volunteered to come knowing that they may not make it back to their respective locations alive. It feels like, compared to this, the risk is much higher in Deathly Hallows than Order of the Phoenix.

Katie: Yeah, yeah. And here it still very much has a feeling of “The grownups are in charge, and the grownups are handling it and they’re the ones taking the risk, and they’re here to protect Harry,” but talk about Seven Potters, and it’s all Harry’s generation that’s at risk as well, and so it really has a different level of responsibility involved.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point. So what message should it send to Harry that nine wizards, including three Aurors, have been sent to safely transport him from Privet Drive? I mean, this is a big contingent of people.

Andrew: “We do love you, Harry! See, we weren’t ghosting you.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “We just needed some time.”

Micah: Do you think Hedwig should have been there?

Andrew: Hedwig should have been there. That would have been the icing on the cake.

Eric: And her frogs. She should just have a half-eaten frog in her mouth.

Andrew: No, I think… this actually gets back to what I was talking about during Make the Personal Connection last week. Things do get better. You think people aren’t behind you, you think you’re in trouble, you think you’re doomed… things do get better. All you got to do is wait it out sometimes.

Eric: Yeah, I feel like there’s nothing wrong with that, but the idea that he would have been cursing at them or spelling them… they’re ultimately not really that much authorized to say more than Ron or Hermione, or anybody via letter would be, so if he had taken this time to be cross with them, they would have taken him to Grimmauld Place in, like, a cage.

[Eric and Katie laugh]

Eric: They would have just constructed, blindfolded… I feel like they could overpower and subdue him, but I hate to think that they would have to.

Katie: Yeah, totally agree; they could have fought back if he did fire off curses. But I don’t know. I think my reaction to the nine wizards… not the nine wizards themselves, but Moody’s comment about… he said, like, “Never too many,” or “More would have been better.” He said something like that, and I just had the thought that Moody has never heard the phrase “There’s too many cooks in the kitchen.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Katie: Because now I’m picturing so many wizards circling around Harry in the air, and I can’t imagine that would be a great thing for secrecy’s sake, either. But it is nice to show how many people are supporting.

Eric: You’re right. That’s a good point.

Andrew: It is a little strange, too, because they’re so concerned about being spotted up in the air, but they don’t seem to be concerned about going from the ground to getting above the clouds…

Laura: Right.

Andrew: … and that seems like the most obvious place for them to be spotted, right in the front yard of Privet Drive.

Laura: Yeah, it’s not very inconspicuous, that’s for sure. [laughs]

Andrew: No.

Eric: Meanwhile, the Put-Outer has already been used once on Privet Drive for that reason, but it doesn’t make an appearance until they land in London. It’s the beginning of next chapter that it gets used. But one of them’s got it on him; I think it’s Lupin actually has the Put-Outer on him.

Micah: I think it’s… isn’t it Moody? Moody uses it at the end of this chapter.

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: Even still, I don’t see that as a great excuse or a great way to explain how they’re not spotted on the ground.

Micah: Yeah, I’ve never understood how that really works either. It’s like, “Oh, you put out the street light.” There’s still other lights.

Andrew: Coming from the homes?

Micah: People can still see in the dark. [laughs] It’s not like you’re up in the Northwest where at night it gets pitch black, right, Katie?

Katie: Right.

Andrew: Privet Drive is not a dark sky certified area of land.

Micah: No, it’s a suburban street.

[Andrew laughs]

Katie: And it’s also summertime, right?

Laura: Yes!

Katie: So when is sunset? It’s probably only really dusk here. I imagine this award ceremony isn’t at 10:00 p.m.

Andrew: Well, and in Europe, the sun sets very late. I’ll never forget watching Game of Thrones over there at 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. and it was still broad daylight. I’m like, “This is weird.” The days are long over there in summer.

Eric: Well, I feel the need to mention that we’re forgetting how overcast and cloudy England always is, so even in the summer, there’d be cloud cover.

Micah: True.

Andrew: Nah, this is one big plot hole. We just unearthed a major plot hole.

Eric: Well, why do they use the Put-Outer when they land?

Andrew: What’s with this book? No longer my favorite. [laughs]

Eric: Wow, the stakes are real on this read-through.

Micah: We’ve talked a little bit about Mad-Eye. We mentioned Remus in terms of members of the Advance Guard. We’re introduced to two new characters in Nymphadora Tonks and Kingsley Shacklebolt, which will become more important a little bit later on throughout Order of the Phoenix, but later on into the series; you could probably throw Elphias Doge into that mix as well, as he appears in Deathly Hallows.

Eric: And Hestia Jones.

Micah: Yeah. Sturgis Podmore, Emmeline Vance, Dedalus Diggle, and Hestia Jones – as you mentioned, Eric – round out our Advance Guard. And I thought it was a bit ironic that it’s Mad-Eye Moody who questions if Harry is actually Harry; that was clearly thrown in there as a throwback to Goblet of Fire.

Eric: [laughs] Well, it’s a great opportunity to mention it. The last time Harry saw Moody, he wasn’t him.

Andrew: And maybe he’s trying to teach Harry something here, like, “Be on your guard. Remember, I was fake as hell last book, to you at least.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “So you should be asking me this question. Wink, wink.”

Laura: I also feel like there were just Dementors here; you don’t know what all the Dark side is up to, so I think it’s actually really smart that he does this. And it could also be foreshadowing to the Seven Potters in Deathly Hallows as well, where we also know there are other examples of characters forcing each other to prove they are who they say they are when they show up at the…

Eric: It’s how we get Mollywobbles.

Laura: Aww, yeah.

Eric: When they’re at the Burrow, it’s how we know what Mollywobbles is. So again, yeah, here’s an example. They’re leading by example and instructing Harry how to verify somebody’s identity. It comes into play two years from now.

Micah: But you’d be checking your breakfast, right, Eric?

Eric: I would be checking for anything in my cereal if I were Moody proper.

Micah: Oh, if you were Moody. That makes sense. What if your eye fell into your cereal?

[Andrew and Katie laugh]

Eric: Then it would be lubed up?

Katie: Then it’s extra checked. That’s how you check it, right? Just throw it in there?

Eric: Yeah, milk’s a lubricant, right?

Micah: We touched on this little bit earlier with Lupin being this familiar face; do we think specifically that’s why he was sent as part of the Advance Guard? And kind of as a follow-up question, given that Harry had just performed the Patronus Charm days earlier, is Lupin’s safety question really that safe? We’re in this whole mindset of making sure Harry is Harry, and not trying to get tricked and accidentally smuggle a Death Eater back to Grimmauld Place, but I don’t think this safety question really stands the test. It’s a poor safety question on the part of Lupin.

Eric: Wow. Wow. I mean, most wizards are shocked to learn Harry can even conjure a Patronus. But for Lupin, it must be a case of just asking the one question he himself knew the answer to. Nobody knows the answer to this question more than Harry himself and Lupin, so that’s…

Andrew: It’s kind of a throwback, isn’t it? [laughs] Just like…

Eric: Yeah, to last time they worked so closely together.

Andrew: Yeah, for the reader.

Eric: But my question is what if Harry had said a moose? Or a deer, right? A deer is not incorrect, but stag is the way that they know James. It’s always called a… it’s never not called a stag. But what if he got close but didn’t nail it? What would that…?

Andrew: That’s a good call.

Eric: How would that play out? Because anybody around the street, or anybody that’s seen Harry cast it from afar, any of the other Hogwarts students… I don’t know. It’s getting into murky territory here.

Laura: Yeah, but I could see somebody calling it a buck, for example, instead of a stag.

Eric: A buck. It’s specifically a stag, is why I’m like, “Okay, yeah, clearly this is Harry, because he calls it the same thing that they called it.” But stag is such a… I don’t know when I’ve had many opportunities to come up with “stag.” I probably would have gone “buck” first as well.

Katie: I kind of took this as Lupin… half safety question, half just getting comfortable with Harry again, kind of joking around, maybe showing Harry we don’t have to take Moody all that seriously. Hopefully, it sounds like Lupin was already pretty confident in Harry’s identity.

Eric: It is a great question as far as “Was he brought along because Harry has a relationship with him?” And I think it’s got to be, because he actually doesn’t have a relationship with these other people. I mean, he’s met Dedalus Diggle twice before, once in a shop and once in the Leaky Cauldron in year one, but there’s no real personal connection here. These strange wizards are going to take him away. What if they’re all Death Eaters? In fact, last year, one of them was disguised… was a Death Eater!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So Lupin is really the one that Harry is meant to trust, I think, to go with them.

Micah: Yeah. And I think, though, in the movie the question is different, right? Lupin asks him what was in the tank in the first Defense Against the Dark Arts lesson?

Eric: Grindylow! Yeah, that’s right. Well, maybe they identified that it’s a bad question.

Micah: Or am I thinking about Deathly Hallows – Part 1?

Katie: I think that’s a Deathly Hallows question.

Laura: I think that is, yeah.

Micah: Okay. Never mind then. But I still think it’s a weak question.

Laura: But it is funny because in Deathly Hallows, Lupin is the one who really doesn’t believe it’s Harry. He’s a lot more aggressive towards him than he is here.

Eric: Is Harry so desperate that, if Lupin weren’t here, he would go with these strange adult wizards who claim they’re with Dumbledore?

Andrew: Yes. 100%.

Katie: Yeah, he didn’t ask any of them a safety question, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: But he’s so desperate to get out of there.

Micah: He wants to go, yeah.

Eric: We’re all agreeing Harry would just… Harry doesn’t care at this point.

Andrew: He’d go with it anyway, yeah.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: But you also have to assume, if you’re Harry, that Dumbledore now has even more eyes on you in light of what happened, so I’d be more inclined to believe that these people are who they say they are.

Eric: Okay.

Micah: Well, we are introduced to one of the coolest characters in the Harry Potter series in this chapter in Nymphadora Tonks. And while we’ve been talking a little bit about the fact that Lupin being there disarms Harry, I really think Tonks is the one who grounds him in this chapter, when they go up to his room. And I think it’s important for Harry to see someone close to his age who’s an Auror, and somebody who recognizes her mistakes, her shortcomings, and is willing to own them. I mean, she’s very truthful in her conversation with Harry for just meeting him for the first time.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Tonks is great. Tonks is great.

Andrew: And I think it’s a nice moment for Harry because Tonks is pointing out, “This house is almost suspiciously clean, isn’t it?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Which I think says a lot about the Dursleys, and it kind of tells Harry that she immediately understands the type of people that Harry has been living with, these fake people.

Micah: True.

Laura: She also talks to him like a human being. She treats him like a normal person, which isn’t something he’s getting from the other people that he’s meeting for the first time here.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, it is complete with this… she does make him uncomfortable by looking at his scar this one time, but that’s sort of a natural thing that everyone does at this point. But you’re right; she’s just normal. And knowing that Auror is the only career path he’s ever thought of, which is what this chapter says, knowing that she’s an Auror, that somebody so close to him in age and so cool and so flawed – in terms of having, like you said, weaknesses, like she’s clumsy – can become an Auror, and also has this Metamorphmagus thing going on… she’s an immediate role model for Harry.

Katie: I think “grounds,” that Micah said earlier, is also such a great way to describe what she does here, too, because she’s kind of getting to know him on a more personal level. She’s joining him away from the group. I don’t want to say “taking” him away from the group, because that sounds nefarious, but maybe she can tell he’s super overwhelmed with all these new people, so she kind of puts him in a little bit more of a relaxed setting. He can tell that she’s not super worried about the outcome, so maybe that calms him down a little bit as well. So yeah, I think it was a great way to introduce Tonks here.

Laura: You know what? I feel like she has big sister energy here. I think that’s what it is. She’s being a big sister to Harry in this moment.

Eric: Aww.

Micah: How about Moody? Do we feel like he’s overreacting at all? We know about him at this point. We know how he behaves normally, never mind when he’s being impersonated by a Death Eater, and certainly last year would lend itself to him behaving even more paranoid. But he jokes about not breaking rank should one of them die, and I just couldn’t help but think about Deathly Hallows.

Katie: I don’t think he was joking.

Eric: He wasn’t joking, yeah.

Laura: No. [laughs]

Eric: But he mentions it. He’s the hard boiled, straight one. He’s literally the funniest. The funniest thing about Mad-Eye is he’s not funny. There’s no… in a crowd, he’s the most serious one, and that’s funny. So Tonks…

Andrew: And this is why Dumbledore trusts him, I think.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: And he’s the military guy in the operation, no BS, straight to the point, “We’re going to do this, and we’re going to do this right, and we’re going to save this kid.” I like the tone that Moody strikes here.

Eric: I agree, because you believe also that he’s motivated to do things right, especially after how he spent his last year. He’s motivated to make sure that that doesn’t happen to him again, so you’re extra inclined to trust him. And Tonks is the one who takes him down a peg when she’s like, “Who do you know that’s lost a buttock? You’re being too over-serious here.”

Katie: Yeah, and he does seem to respond well whenever Tonks does push back on him too. It’s like he’s going all in, but then when she pulls him back, it seems like he’s kind of okay with it. I think he wanted to double back at some point, and Tonks was like, “We’re all freezing!” and I don’t think that they ended up doubling back. So maybe he just goes hard all the way and knows that the team will do what’s necessary.

Micah: She’s his protégé, though, isn’t…?

Katie: Mentee?

Micah: I always had the sense that she studied under Moody. Maybe I’m making that up in my head.

Eric: Yeah, I don’t remember where in canon, but I had the same inkling. I had the same thought for…

Micah: So he has a deep level of respect for her. And I think, to your point, Katie, it comes through in this chapter and at other times in the series. But does this whole rescue situation seem overly dramatic?

Andrew: Micah.

Eric: Hindsight is too…

Micah: “We’re going to lure the Dursleys away and we’re going to send nine people, and then we’re going to do all these charms, and then we’re going to go up and fly…”

Eric: I’m going to send you a printout of Deathly Hallows‘ “Seven Potters” and you…

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: I’m sorry, yeah, next chapter: “Number 12 Grimmauld Place.” They make it! It was a successful operation. There’s nothing wrong with this successful operation!

Micah: Well, in fairness to the Advance Guard, I think it was Lupin who mentions how they can’t risk using the Floo Network, and something about Apparating would set off alarm bells, so…

Eric: Well, Harry can’t do it.

Micah: Well, he does it in Half-Blood Prince, right?

Eric: Well, side-along is not invented yet by the author. It’s not a thing.

Micah: Ah, that must be it. Well, surely there could have been another option. We just talked about how he’s rescued in all the other books. [laughs]

Eric: That’s true.

Katie: But Floo Powder would have too much Ministry oversight, right? I mean, I could see the reasons. The one thing that I just… actually, the reason I went back and listened to the previous episode was all of the magic happening at Number 4 Privet Drive.

Eric: Oh! I’m so glad you brought this up.

Katie: How does this not alert the Ministry? I don’t understand.

Eric: There has to be… you know how when you’re coding and you want to put a secret comment in the…? Mark will know; he’s not here.

Laura: Yeah, commenting your code?

Eric: Commenting your code, and stuff that helps for context. I wonder if there’s a way to do a spell where it masks itself, like the way that you do a nonverbal spell when you don’t want your opponent to know what you’re about to cast on them. But there must be a way in which the adults are masking, because they’re using a ton of magic inside the house, but it isn’t getting picked up by a Ministry who would look for this as an opportunity to further penalize Harry.

Andrew: It’s a good question.

Eric: I had that thought.

Katie: I could take that as a headcanon solution. There’s a way to cast your magic in secret.

Andrew: Hide. Yeah, because there’s got to be a lot of interest in being able to do that for a variety of reasons, so you would have to think that adult wizards have figured that out by now, how to trick the system.

Laura: And I’m sure it’s illegal.

[Katie laughs]

Andrew: Yes, for sure.

Laura: It has to be.

Eric: Well, there’s good illegal and bad illegal, right? This is useful to not get Harry in trouble.

Laura: Sure.

Katie: The coding analogy is a little funky because when you comment out code, it no longer is effective, right? But this magic is still being executed.

Eric: There must be a way to subtly… or go incognito with your spellcasting so that the trace can’t…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: There we go. That’s a better…

Andrew: Draw a parallel to a Chrome tab.

Eric: One thing I thought of, though, if we’re really comparing Books 5 and 7 here, Harry does actually flat out ask the adults, “What’s going on with Vol -?” And he doesn’t say Voldemort, and they all stop him from saying it, and I wonder if they, in that moment, are thinking that there’s a possibility that his name might be tabooed the way that it is in the books, and that’s how the Death Eaters find them.

Katie: It’ll be interesting to see how the speaking out loud of the full name “Voldemort” comes up in the rest of the book, if we keep tracking that. Because yeah, they definitely cut him off here, but I wonder if Dumbledore continues to use it like always…

Eric: Yeah. Oh, that’s a great point. Yeah, yeah. I know it’s definitely all adults are squeamish about it, so this scene makes sense, but I was thinking, because Harry is unprotectedly… they’re about to rescue him; the stakes couldn’t be higher. It made it seem like they jump on him.

Micah: This is certainly a precursor for the Seven Potters in Deathly Hallows, and I wonder, too, if Dumbledore was alive, would he have allowed this same kind of rescue attempt to happen? Because there’s a lot of risk, obviously, in doing this, and they’ve already tried it once in Order of the Phoenix; why try and duplicate the effort in Deathly Hallows? So maybe we can talk a little bit about that when we get to our Book 7 reread. But as we mentioned, Harry and company make it safely to Number 12 Grimmauld Place. If I remember correctly, a very fun sequence of events to play in the Lego Harry Potter games.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Stuff in the fountain. Stuff is all messed up. You’ve got to smash everything to advance.

Micah: But before we head over to hear from our patrons on the Lynx Line, I did want to ask one final question. We hear about the Rear Guard, so there is supposedly another guard that is in place to take over should anything happen, should all nine of these people be killed…

Andrew: Agh!

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … in transit to Grimmauld Place. And I was curious; I don’t remember ever learning about who the members of the Rear Guard were. Who do we think is stationed to collect Harry and bring him safely to Grimmauld Place should something happen?

Andrew: So I feel like the Advance Guard are the A team, right? They’re the good people; we’re feeling confident they’re going to pull off this mission successfully. Once you fill up the Advance Guard with all the good people, there’s the people who aren’t so good, but you’ve got to have this backup plan just in case. Dung. Dung’s got to be in the Rear Guard. And also, Arthur. I’m sorry, but Arthur is not the strongest weapon, so he’s on the backup team. Those are my two guesses.

Katie: I like to picture Hagrid on his… well, I don’t actually remember where the motorcycle is at this point in the story, but I think I like to picture Hagrid just a couple hundred yards back in the sky, alone on the motorcycle, just making sure everything’s going okay.

Andrew: That’s a good idea.

Micah: All right, well, we’re going to hear from our patrons in just a minute, but we need to hear a word from our sponsors first.

[Ad break]


Lynx Line


Micah: So on this week’s Lynx Line, which is our newest benefit on Patreon… of course, thanks to those who support us over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast for answering this week’s questions. In the spirit of the Advance Guard, we asked: What five Potter characters – because nine is too many…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … would you choose for your own Advance Guard? And I figured we could read these in host order. So Andrew?

Andrew: So this first one comes from Jennifer:

“Picking an Advanced Guard? Heck yes! I’d start off with Dumbledore – if Voldemort fears him, everyone should. Kingsley – he’s just a badass. Lupin – smart and also a werewolf! McGonagall – she’s freaking smart! She’s amazing! Finally, I picked Dobby – he would do anything to save Harry Potter!”

Aw, that was a really cute answer overall.

Eric: Really cute answer. From Carly: “Kingsley: If he protected the Muggle Prime Minister, he’s good enough for this.” Darn good point. “Flitwick: Bro was a dueling champion, so he probably has killer reflexes.” Oh, another great point. “Moody: I relate heavy to his hyper vigilance. McGonagall: Badass + Animagus.” And, “Angelina Johnson, assuming she’s old enough to consent, because being awesome at Quidditch tells me she’s a very skilled flyer.”

Micah: All good choices. Asia says,

“Remus Lupin and Sirius Black (because Wolfstar), Minerva McGonagall (she’s a badass mother… you know the rest).”

[Laura laughs]

“Bill Weasley (he’s a talented wizard who knows about curse breaking), and Hagrid (he’s caring and would be very protective).”

Katie: And Shannon says,

“One: Dumbledore (as long as he’s not too busy ignoring me), Peeves (he would be dedicated to destruction if anyone tried to get in the way of the mission – and he respects Dumbledore, so that’s another reason we need him), Fleur (she could use her Veela powers if needed for a distraction).”

That’s a great idea.

“Mad-Eye (CONSTANT VIGILANCE! And serious dedication), and Lupin (very intelligent with lots of knowledge in various areas of magic).”

Laura: Good choices. Jason says,

“I’d have to say Fred and George (completely unpredictable, which makes them perfect), Kingsley Shacklebolt, Luna Lovegood (who is a totally dedicated friend and would be surprisingly laser-focused), Professor McGonagall,” and also Jason adds, “Snape, but I would assume that he needs to maintain his cover,” so that might be a tricky role for him to play.

Eric: “My Lord, I have something to do tonight between the hours of seven and nine.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “Don’t ask me again in two years, and I’ll tell you what’s going on.”

Micah: Can I just call out to ZN in the Discord says, “Dobby bringing that dirty sock.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s what Dobby brings to the whole ensemble.

Andrew: Leah’s team would be,

“Viktor Krum, Charlie Weasley, Oliver Wood – three super attractive and talented Quidditch players. It’s a flying mission, after all. Am I secretly hoping they’d fight over me in the process? Absolutely.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And then she added,

“Flitwick and McGonagall, arguably the two most talented and nurturing professors. I can count on them to care about my well-being and I can definitely count on their defensive wandwork, as evidenced by the Battle of Hogwarts.”

Eric: Nice. The Quidditch thing is amazing. It is a flying mission, of course. Rachel S. says,

“I’d have Sir Cadogan cause a crazy diversion. Then the four I’d travel with would be Mad-Eye, McGonagall, Lupin, and Kingsley.”

Awesome.

Micah: Stephanie says,

“I would choose Lupin, for his magical prowess. Hermione, because she’s the smartest person in the series. Charlie Weasley, because dragons! Grawp for his physical dominance. And Kreacher, after Sirius commands him to protect Harry at all costs.”

Laura: Oooh.

Eric: Love to see Grawp on a broom.

Laura: I was just thinking that. How does Grawp become airborne?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: A bigger broom.

Katie: Also, does Charlie get to ride a dragon during this rescue mission?

Eric: Ohh!

Laura: That would be cool. Grawp could ride on the dragon.

Eric: Everyone would see that. The whole country would see that.

Laura: Yeah, but what if you got an invisible dragon? Aren’t there some dragons that can make themselves invisible? There has to be.

Katie: Just disillusion the dragon. It’s fine.

Eric: Yeah, that’s fine.

Laura: Eleanor says,

“I’m going for the people who we know sacrificed themselves for or choose Harry over themselves in some way: Dobby, Hagrid, Snape, Ron, Draco, who didn’t give Harry up to Bellatrix,” in Book 7. So that’s an interesting choice.

Eric: I love how much thought people are putting in.

Laura: I love the thought behind it.

Katie: And Michael W. says,

“Viktor Krum because he’s a boss. Sirius because he’d distract and enrage the Death Eaters. Dobby, super underrated in a pinch. And Dumbledore, because he obviously doesn’t have anything better to do. And Mad-Eye because duh.”

Eric: [laughs] So glad they mentioned Dumbledore not having anything better to do.


Where’s Dumbledore?


Micah: Well, speaking of Dumbledore, where’s he at?

Andrew: Where you at? So I think he’s sitting at the 12 Grimmauld Place command center waiting to watch the extraction take place. Imagine that photo of Obama in the situation room waiting for SEAL Team Six to take down Osama? That’s the scene going on in the situation room at 12 Grimmauld Place.

Micah: I like that a lot.

Eric: Oh, I’m picturing that scene in The Santa Clause where the elves have the sleigh tracked on a pin board with LED lights, and they’re tracking it.

Andrew: And Hillary Clinton in that photo is Professor McGonagall.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Okay, I think it works.

Micah: We got the AI on that.

Eric: My answer for where Dumbledore is is that he’s the one who shot up the sparks! There were red, then there were green; someone far off in the distance that tells them the coast is clear shoots off sparks. It’s probably the Rear Guard, if we’re being honest. And I said that Dumbledore stayed behind and probably shot off purple, yellow, pink sparks, too, but that was for a nearby Pride Parade. It is summertime, after all.

Micah: I think Dumbledore is just hiding out in the bushes of Privet Drive drinking it all in.

Katie: Are these the same hedges that Harry was hiding in at the start of the book?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Exactly.

Katie: Perfect.

Micah: But he doesn’t hit his head on the window.

Eric: Dumbledore is trying to really get in Harry’s head and see what he sees and feel how he feels, so he thought he’d lay in the bushes too.

Laura: He’s just so messy. Well, here’s what I think: So I know a couple weeks ago, I said that I thought Dumbledore was chillin’ on a yacht in the Bahamas, and I think he’s back from that trip now. I think he’s just maxin’ and relaxin’ in the prefects’ bathroom in that giant pool-sized bathtub, and the reason for that is because the Howler that he sends to Petunia creates this horrible echoing that Harry references in this chapter, so I’m imagining that he was just there chilling in the tub, and was like, “Well, I should probably just go ahead and send this.”

[Katie and Micah laugh]

Eric: Amazing.

Katie: You’ve got to hope Dumbledore’s got his own nice bathroom, though, somewhere in the castle.

Micah: Yeah, he’s got a bidet. We established this.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Katie: My headcanon is that once Dumbledore got wind of Tonks’s idea for this All-England Best-Kept Suburban Lawn competition, he actually organized it and put on the thing, and so where was he? He was hosting the award ceremony and handing out awards.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Ah, that’s so good.

Laura: That is incredible.

Eric: It’s such a good one.

Micah: Love it.

Andrew: The AI art on that too.

Katie: [laughs] And then I actually had a second one too of maybe he was doing this because he was distracting himself from the fact that in the last chapter, Harry didn’t recognize his voice, and in this chapter, Harry didn’t recognize his handwriting, and he’s just feeling alone and neglected, so he has to distract himself with some beautiful suburban lawns.

Micah: All very good answers. Katie, I like yours the best.

Laura: Same.

Eric: Me too.

Andrew: Me three.


MVP of the Week


Micah: Well, we’ve mentioned before that we’re not doing MVP of the Week anymore; we’re replacing it, and this week, I figured we would – sticking with the Advance Guard theme – go with the most trustworthy member of the Advance Guard based on their initial intros.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Lupin because he already has a well-established relationship with Harry, and Lupin puts him at ease about Moody, which is, I think, really critical here.

Eric: I’m going to say the most trustworthy member is Moody because he can see 360 degrees, and there’s no way he could be a secret Death Eater twice!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: 360 when his eye is clean.

Eric: True.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Kingsley; I really liked his introduction. Very cool, calm, collected character, and future Minister for Magic.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Tonks. I think she’s the most relatable of all these characters to Harry at this point, and I think she plays a really big role in getting Harry to calm down a little bit.

Katie: I can’t really believe that Harry trusts any of these people, as I said earlier…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Katie: … but if I had to give it to somebody, I’ll give it to Dedalus Diggle because he is another familiar face, and if you can say anything, he has been a consistent character, I think, so another moment of familiarity for Harry.

Micah: Very cheerful individual.

Andrew: Bonus question for everybody this week, because…

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: What?

Micah: No, it was a bonus question. I’m thrown off my game.

Andrew: Oh. Yeah, surprise! There’s more to come. We have one more thing. So in this chapter, Moody says, “Don’t put your wand in your back pocket; I know people whose butts have been blown off.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So I was wondering who’s most likely to blow their butt off due to improper wand storage? It doesn’t have to be anybody in this chapter specifically, just who? I don’t have an answer for this, so I just wanted to know what y’all think.

Eric: Wow, wow. Neville. It’s Neville. I’m sorry. It’s Neville.

Katie: No way, Seamus Finnigan for sure.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, blowing stuff up, yeah, sure, sure.

Micah: Part of me thinks Moody is talking from experience, but I’m going to go with Mundungus Fletcher.

Laura: Okay. I like the idea that Moody is speaking from experience here and trying to project so that nobody knows it’s him.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m going to say Ron, honestly. I could totally see Ron doing this. Ron can be kind of sloppy about the way that he takes care of things, and yeah, I could see this happening to him.

Micah: And to the point about Moody, HallowWolf is bringing up in the Discord that Moody is missing a leg.

[Katie laughs]

Andrew: There you go. That explains a lot.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: But he’s not missing a full leg.

Andrew: Right, but I mean, if it’s in the back pocket, maybe it was pointing at the bottom half of the leg. The overarching point can be you might lose your butt or you might lose something else on you. Well, listeners, if you have any feedback about who’s most likely to blow their butt off…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … or you have any other feedback about today’s discussion…

Eric: That can be our recurring segment this whole book.

Andrew: “Who blew their butt off this week?”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: You can email or send a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, we will discuss Order of the Phoenix Chapter 4, “Number 12 Grimmauld Place,” because it was a successful mission. It was a great plan.

Eric: Good point.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: In Scotland, the peck was used as a dry measure until the introduction of imperial units as a result of the Weights and Measures Act of what year? What year was the Weights and Measures Act passed in Scotland that discontinued a peck? The answer was 1824. Sorry for all those who didn’t get it right. 12% of correct answers said that they did not look it up, and last week’s…

Laura: Hmm.

Eric: Yeah, it’s pretty good. It’s 2 out of 18 people. But yeah, last week’s winners: All Snapes and Sizes; Angst Angst Angst Wizard Angst; Anthony; Benny; Buff Daddy; The self-quizzing book lover Elizabeth K.; Goats4Life; Joyoti; Kennahdawn; More OWLs than Hermione and Percy combined; Robbie; Sansitha; SassyRavenclaw43; The Dead Hogwarts Security Inspector; The glass of water that Mad-Eye washed his eye in and had left on the Dursleys’ counter that Aunt Petunia drank when she got home… oh no.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The Scots pint and the Scots gallon were both around three times the volume of their English equivalents, Hagrid-sized drink; eh, eh? And finally, Issy, who’s only been to Scotland once to see the Eras Tour. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What well-kept lawn in London has been home to a zebra, an elephant, and a helicopter landing pad? And for Brits, that’s zeh-bra, not zebra. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website, doing whatever it is you do on our website, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Katie, thanks so much for joining us today. It was great having you on.

Katie: Yeah, great to be here. Super fun to join you guys. Thanks again for having me.

Andrew: I’ll be thinking about Dumbledore judging the All-England Best-Kept Suburban Lawn Competition for a while.

Eric: Oh, that’s going to be so good.

Andrew: Maybe that’ll be my Halloween costume this year.

[Andrew and Katie laugh]

Laura: Love that.

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like Katie. We are an independent podcast. In fact, we’re as independent as Harry was lonely in the first couple of chapters of this book, so your financial support is of the utmost importance. In fact, listener support is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. There are two great ways to help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. Recent bonus MuggleCast installments have included discussions on the casting calls for the new Harry Potter trio and our first thoughts on the new Quidditch video game. And then for even more benefits, like our awesome new Lynx Line perk – and this is the best way to help us out – you can go to Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You can cohost the show one day, like Katie did today; you get yearly stickers; you get another physical gift every year; you get a video message from one of the four of us made just for you; you also get access to our private Facebook and Discord groups, where you can hang out with us and fellow Harry Potter fans. So thank you. No matter how you support us, we really appreciate it. We could not do this without you. And speaking of support, if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about us, and help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Katie: And I’m Katie.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #676

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #676, Big Fudge is Watching (OOTP Chapter 2, A Peck of Owls)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: And I’m Micah.

Andrew: And we are joined once again by Meg! Hi, Meg. welcome back to MuggleCast.

Meg Scott: Hi! It’s wonderful to be back on.

Andrew: Always excited to have you on, so welcome back, and looking forward to getting all of your wonderful insights. What’s your favorite book in the Harry Potter series, Meg?

Meg: My favorite is Goblet of Fire, and it’s also my favorite movie, which I know is kind of controversial.

Andrew: Interesting.

Meg: But it’s just… it’s the one that I enjoy watching the most.

Andrew: Okay, okay. Fair enough.

Meg: In fact, I’d say Order of the Phoenix is my least favorite book in the series.

Andrew: [gasps] Don’t you dare insult her while she’s in the room!

Meg: I know, I know.

Eric: Listen, I know that you two are in a relationship, Andrew. I’ve seen the TikTok, okay?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You’re so close with that huge hardcover book.

Andrew: I love this baby. I love Order of the Phoenix.

Meg: It does have a lot of really good points; it’s just a lot of it is just depressing.

Andrew: Well, on today’s episode, we will be discussing Chapter 2 of Order of the Phoenix, “A Peck of Owls.” We are currently going Chapter by Chapter through the Harry Potter books every week here on MuggleCast, so make sure you are subscribed to the show for free in your favorite podcast app. And also, we are releasing full video episodes on YouTube, YouTube.com/@MuggleCast, or just search for “MuggleCast” on YouTube. And don’t forget to follow us in your favorite social media apps; just again, search for “MuggleCast.” Before we get into Chapter by Chapter, we do want to note that this episode was recorded before Maggie Smith, who played Professor McGonagall, passed this last Friday, so we will pay tribute to her on next week’s episode of MuggleCast.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: Well, let’s jump right into it today. We’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 2, “A Peck of Owls.”

Eric: That’s right, but first, let’s warm up our old Time-Turner! And by old, I mean new; we just got this thing last week.

Andrew: So this is our new segment on MuggleCast where we look back at the last time we discussed Order of the Phoenix on the show, so here we go.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 228.

Andrew: The Dementor had affected Dudley, so Harry carries Dudley back to Privet Drive, and while on their way, Harry asks Figg why she hadn’t told him she’s a Squib!

Eric: God, everybody’s keeping…

Andrew: “Dumbledore’s orders,” says Mrs. Figg. Uh-oh! Harry continues to…

Micah: That bastard.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: … feel left out of the loop.

Eric: Dumbledore’s orders.

Andrew: Pig for slaughter.

Eric: Seriously! This is not even keeping secrets about Voldemort from Harry, who is potentially compromised.

Andrew: Right, this is a simple thing.

Eric: This is preventing Harry from having any friends.

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 434.

Laura: True.

Andrew: Exactly.

Eric: So you pretty much have Tonks, Emmeline Vance, and Dung are the three that he doesn’t currently know.

Andrew: And Mr. Tibbles.

Eric: And Mr… well, that’s the thing, is Figg has a legion of Kneazles that we are not…

Andrew: [laughs] A legion.

Eric: A whole army of Kneazles that we are not taking into account.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Maybe they do guard duty.

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

[Micah laughs]

Eric: The Dumbledore dislike goes back way far.

Andrew: Also, a good reminder of how audio quality has improved on MuggleCast.

Eric: Basically, this segment is an ad to go listen to less quality past MuggleCasts so that you can really appreciate the current thing we got going.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Before we get into the nitty gritty of today’s episode, I just want to say I think this is an amazing chapter. It is chaotic. It is fast-paced. It is funny. It’s a seesaw of emotions for the reader and Harry, and the magic and the non-magical worlds are colliding as Harry and the Dursleys unpack what has happened. I was just reminded, reading this chapter again, how good it is.

Eric: I’m going to agree with you, honestly! I’m still a little woozy from Harry’s behavior in the previous chapter, but I’ll be darned if rereading this this past week, I didn’t be like, “Well, wow.” This is actually… there’s a lot that happens. It’s fun, it’s exciting, and you don’t know what’s going to happen next.

Micah: I agree; it’s a chapter of revelations. Figg being a Dumbledore informant is immediately one-upped by Petunia’s familiarity with and connection to the wizarding world, which nobody saw coming.

Eric: You’re right. There’s this huge reveal that’s five years in the making with the whole Mrs. Figg thing because she’s mentioned in Book 1, and then there’s this even bigger one of Harry’s aunt.

Meg: Yeah, Harry even has this thought during the chapter where he’s like, “It was so weird to see the pristine kitchen and to have all this information hitting him at once like the two worlds were colliding,” and I do remember feeling that when I was reading this chapter for the first time, and rereading it the other day, being just… you don’t see these worlds collide that often, and when they do, it’s in a chapter like this, where a lot is happening, and it really is a headache of a chapter. Rereading it, you’re learning so much; some things are getting answered, but more questions are coming up. And also, Harry is slugging Dudley around, and then Dudley throws up, and then Harry has a headache, and then Vernon’s vein is throbbing in his temple, and it’s the hottest day of the year…

[Andrew laughs]

Meg: There’s a lot of discomfort in this chapter, I think.

Eric: Well, apparently somebody else who’s uncomfortable is, in fact, Dumbledore. Here’s a quote from Mrs. Figg:

“‘Keep your wand out,’ she told Harry as they entered Wisteria Walk. ‘Never mind the Statute of Secrecy now, there’s going to be hell to pay anyway, we may as well be hanged for a dragon as an egg. Talk about the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery… This is exactly what Dumbledore was afraid of.'”

So here’s a question: Does Mrs. Figg mean that Dumbledore suspected that Harry would be attacked on Privet Drive? Or does she mean that someone from the Ministry would attempt to contrive means by which Harry’s attendance at Hogwarts and his credibility were conveniently placed into question before the start of term? What do we think?

Micah: Yes. [laughs]

Eric: Great. Okay, main discussion one is done. We’re going on.

Micah: Moving on.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I interpreted this as Dumbledore anticipating a situation where Harry would need to use magic, and that the Ministry would use that as an opportunity to pounce, and that’s exactly what happened.

Eric: Yes.

Meg: I wonder if Dumbledore also, maybe just knowing Harry, knowing that Harry would be frustrated at being kept out of the loop, would… even without the threat of a Dementor coming along, if something else would cause Harry to perform magic, just out of frustration, like the way that Aunt Marge was blown up just by Harry’s emotions. I wonder if Dumbledore is sitting in his office thinking, “You know, maybe what I’m doing here isn’t the best idea.” It’s really just turning Harry into a ticking time bomb for something explosively magical to happen.

Andrew: Yeah, he’s on edge. He’s in the dark. The events of Goblet of Fire just happened. We even saw last chapter that Harry did get a little angry at Vernon and pushed him away without trying to. At least, that was my read on that sentence.

Eric: Yeah, if Dumbledore is thinking about this in his office, it’s got to be his office in Ibiza, because I don’t think he cares.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Oh, he’s not back yet.

Eric: Yeah, he’s not pondering hurting Harry’s feelings, because you would think he would just be better at guarding against it. Or giving Harry a friend, some way to keep him… because you don’t need to tell him everything to show him some level of companionship. Harry, I think, at his root just feels abused and neglected, which of course, he’s always been, but this year, more than ever, it’s even more true.

Micah: And let’s not forget that Voldemort is back at this point, too, so certainly that’s running in the back of Dumbledore’s mind. We were talking about, “Could something happen that could spur Harry into action?” Certainly something that Voldemort contrives and tries to do. That’s a possibility here as well.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, definitely. He doesn’t know where to look, and when you’re that paranoid, even when he finds out that he’s been watched, it’s almost worse because nobody made contact, treated him like an equal. Essentially, this is a book where Harry is definitely old enough to be treated like an adult, and I know that argument comes up later in the book, but he’s not. So my real question is… of course, we found them at a bad time. Their protection is only as strong as its weakest link. Weak link, meet Mundungus Fletcher. And my big question is: It obviously had to come down to Dung at this moment, but could Dumbledore have invested in more manpower to Harry’s protection? Or even eyes at the Ministry that could have circumvented? Dumbledore actually has to do a lot of running around at the end of this chapter, we hear about, so could Dumbledore have been better prepared for this, I think?

Andrew: The more eyes at the Ministry idea, I think, makes more sense to me than maybe more manpower on Privet Drive. Just thinking it’s easier to hide one person than several people at Privet Drive. And with Figg and Mrs. Tibbles… Miss Tibbles… whatever the cat’s name is.

Eric: Mr. Tibbles.

Andrew: Mr. Tibbles! Excuse me.

Eric: How far you’ve forgotten your favorite Kneazle.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: You got Tibbles, you got Figg, you got a rotating selection of Order members… that sounds like enough to me, and it’s a nice way to stay out of the way while having a couple of pairs of eyes at the scene.

Micah: And Dumbledore does have informants at the Ministry. He has Kingsley; he has Arthur. But he sent the riffraff, the dregs of the coffee, to look after Harry in Mundungus…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and sorry, Mrs. Figg. Mrs. Figg, as we talked about in the last episode, can’t do anything worth a damn to protect Harry, and Dung is so unreliable that why would you put him in this situation? And I think that it’s Dumbledore’s planning that leads to this situation in the first place. So it’s a bit ironic; Dung Disapparating sets a sequence of events in motion that ultimately results in Harry versus the Dementors, and as we mentioned in last week’s episode, more reliable, more accomplished personnel certainly should have been put into place. I think we can all agree on that.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Meg: It’s funny because in the previous chapter, when Harry hears the crack, he’s imagining… he’s like, “That sounded like Dobby,” and at one point he turns around to be like, “Is Dobby here right now?” And I was reading that, and I was like, “I wish Dobby were here right now.”

Micah: I know. Harry needs a hug.

Andrew: Aww.

Meg: Harry needs a hug. Harry needs a little friend to be there, being like, “It’s going to be okay, Harry Potter.” And what do the house-elves at Hogwarts do during the summer? Dobby would probably…

Eric: Extra cleanings.

Andrew: Deep clean the school.

Eric: Yeah, I was going to say! They have it even worse.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: They’re not in Ibiza.

[Meg and Micah laugh]

Meg: No.

Eric: Unless they’re propping up Dumbledore’s feet.

Andrew: One element of the scene that really didn’t sit right with me is Figg getting Harry and Dudley back to Privet Drive, because Figg doesn’t really give Harry any suggestions for what to say to Vernon and Petunia. And I guess on one hand, she’s so frazzled by what happened, she’s not thinking straight, but I think this should have been part of a backup plan, too, just in case something did happen. What was going to be said to Vernon and Petunia?

Eric: This is a great point. Presumably, she knows Vernon and Petunia on a personal level, in the way that adult neighbors do. They know her well enough to know that Harry would have a sufficiently miserable time staying with her, which is why she got to babysit him all the… when he was younger. So they clearly know each other socially enough for Figg to have some advice, so I love this idea that there could be advice.

Andrew: Well, and to extend that point further, if Figg said, “Hey, Vernon, Petunia. Dudley,” I don’t know, “tripped and fell” or something like that, made up some excuse…

Eric: [laughs] “He fell down some stairs.”

Andrew: Yeah, they would be more inclined to believe her than Harry, because she is a trusted adult neighbor.

Eric: Well, so we keep talking about how Figg can’t do anything because she doesn’t have magic – she couldn’t fend off the Dementors, she definitely can’t lift Dudley – but she could actually give him that social backup that he needs by staying with him.

Micah: True.

Meg: Counterpoint: Mrs. Figg has met the Dursleys so many times that she hates them, and she’s like, “I’m not going to talk to them.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Meg: “This was not in my job description.”

Andrew: Or they don’t trust her anymore because they think she’s wacky.

Eric: It might be… there is a question about how the Dementors… the timing of this all, because I think it really is when Harry leaves Privet Drive – he’s over on Wisteria Walk – when the Dementors come. Maybe the Dementors were out there all day in the sweltering heat, and they could only find Harry…

[Micah laughs]

Meg: Chain-smoking?

Eric: Well, because otherwise it’s a huge coincidence, right? That they descend the second he’s in a compromised position.

Micah: I’m glad you brought that up, though, because talking about watching Harry, I was curious: Did Umbridge know that Dung Disapparated and used that as her opportunity, knowing that his security was no longer in place? Presumably, she would have had to have some kind of tabs on Harry to be able to send the Dementors, and I don’t remember if this comes up later on in the book, but otherwise it’s just open to chance.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, that’s why I think maybe she sent them a few hours ago, not this exact moment, because otherwise she has eyes on Privet… you’re not supposed to be able to have ill will toward Harry and be able to see what he’s doing on Privet Drive when he’s on Privet Drive. That’s the whole purpose of Lily’s protection, so it’s a bit interesting. But Figg, the one successful thing she does do – besides satisfactorily threaten Mundungus Fletcher’s life and to maim him – is to actually just get Harry back onto Privet Drive where he’s safer. I think that’s the part of it that he would have maybe faltered at, because he’s so overwhelmed right now that just having her to talk with him… I know she’s not lifting the boy or helping much, but that motivation is really important to get Harry back onto Privet Drive where he’s safe, because I think that might have been where the security failed here.

Meg: Yeah, she kind of brings him back to the real world, and if she hadn’t shown up, Harry might have run off with his wand to find more Dementors and ended up in more trouble.

Eric: So we do make it back to the Dursleys – thanks, Figg, for next to nothing – but we’re not alone. After it comes to the open what has happened, something’s happened to Dudley, we begin to get a series… I said a “kerfluffle” of owls. I wanted to say “peck,” but that’s been taken.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And one we don’t know who it’s from? So if this was Dumbledore’s worst fear, if Dumbledore suspected that the Ministry of Magic would expel Harry from Hogwarts and come straight for his wand, he was right. And I’m just shocked because the very first letter Harry receives is, in fact, “You’ve been expelled from Hogwarts, and we’re going to snap your wand.”

Andrew: And for the reader – and Harry – the first time you’re reading this, this is shocking. I think I still remember the feeling of seeing this letter come in, like, “Whoa, that happened so quick. This is unbelievable. It’s all over.” Harry is experiencing that exact same feeling, and they do cite the severity of the breach as the reason for taking the wand. And I guess using a Patronus in the Muggle world is what’s so severe about this?

Eric: Doing magic in front of a Muggle? Not just in a Muggle area, but in front of a Muggle?

Meg: But it’s a Muggle that knows magic exists.

Andrew: That’s a good point.

Eric: Okay, say more.

Meg: That should be something taken into consideration there.

Andrew: And they also note that this wasn’t the first time he did magic outside of school, so they do have a couple of valid reasons for punishing him somehow.

Micah: However…

Andrew: However what? Dementors? [laughs]

Micah: No. Well, first I was going to say it’s also a defensive magic, which is important. He wasn’t just attacking somebody; he was defending himself. You’d think that that would come into play here, but obviously it doesn’t. But you mentioned he got… it was referenced that he had done magic before, but let’s not forget back in Book 3, “We don’t send wizards to Azkaban for blowing up their aunts!”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I mean, he was completely absolved of any responsibility there, so it’s almost like they’re cherry picking here a bit.

Eric: Almost.

Micah: And the decision-making is coming directly from Fudge, right? We can pretty much agree on that? And the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, not even close.

Meg: I think Harry could have done the most wholesome, altruistic spell that exists; there could be a spell that a wizard can only use that spell if it’s to save someone’s life, and even if Harry had used that spell, that letter would have been ready to go. They were just… they’re so anti-Harry in this book that they’re ready to send it out at the drop of a hat, without even, like, “Well, it’s in front of his cousin, who knows about magic.” They’re like, “Don’t care. Doesn’t matter.” I also thought it was just so funny and bureaucratic how the end of this letter is “Hoping you are well,” when it’s this terrible, “You’re being expelled, we’re going to destroy your wand, you have committed a horrible breach of magic… but we hope you’re having a great summer.”

Andrew: [laughs] It almost implies to me that this is a canned template that they have ready to send out at any time.

Eric: Sure.

Andrew: Because we all have our pre-written email signatures. “Best. Thanks. Have a nice day. Sincerely.”

Micah: “Cheers.”

Meg: Yeah, that’s just how Mafalda Hopkirk signs off.

Andrew: “Hoping you are well.”

Eric: I’ve been manually typing mine this whole time!

[Andrew and Meg laugh]

Eric: How do I set that up? You gotta help me.

Andrew: Mine’s “Thanks for listening, I’m Andrew.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That should be mine, actually.

Micah: “Choo-choo.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. Well, I think the point, too, that these Muggles know about magic should be an exception to the Statue of Secrecy, because the bottom line is he’s their family, and they know what he is, and so you almost can’t punish him for this.

Micah: The fact that he’s Harry Potter should be an exception to the rule. [laughs]

Eric: Well… yeah, but this year it’s not. Maybe in year three.

Andrew: One point I wanted to bring up was about Arthur’s quick letter to Harry. He said, “Do not surrender your wand.” And this was making me wonder, does Harry have a right…? Do wizards have a right to continue possessing their wand, unless they want to surrender it? And what happens if they don’t surrender it?

Eric: Yeah, if they do have a right to keep their wand, nobody told Hagrid. His got snapped.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Although he does still have it. But yeah, it’s a bit interesting there. But I think that when you’re a student at Hogwarts, your wand is like your license to do magic. It’s your binding thing, and so they snap it because you’re not fit to do magic by… you never got your magical GED, your permit, I guess, to use it.

Micah: I could only imagine Ministry officials showing up at Number Four Privet Drive after everything that’s happened. We thought Vernon’s vein was bulging in his head earlier in the chapter?

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: Because he also… doesn’t he make a comment in this chapter, too, about “Oh, your lot are in government? This explains so much.”

Andrew and Meg: Yeah.

Eric: Pretty fun dig, honestly. But yeah, if government wizards showed up – presumably again, because they probably helped Dudley last year – he’d lose it.

Meg: Well, he’d be having an aneurysm because he’d be hating it, but then they’d be taking Harry’s wand away, and he’d be like, “Oh, actually, this is pretty good.”

Andrew: [laughs] He would be torn about the situation.

Eric: He wouldn’t know whether to be happy or…

Meg: Until Harry says, “Actually, Mr. Weasley said not to surrender my wand,” and they say, “Oh, okay, never mind,” and then everybody leaves.

Eric: Well, it’s a rare streak of rebellion.

Andrew: And that’s the thing, would they duel at the Dursleys’ house then until they got Harry’s wand away from him?

Meg: Right.

Eric: How would that…?

Andrew: Of course, Vernon would hate that.

Eric: Yeah, it’s so interesting that Arthur is like, “Don’t let them take your wand.” And he’s basically saying, like, “Don’t go quietly.”

Meg: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: And it’s such an interesting… I mean, the priority is probably… the priority is “Don’t let them get your wand.” The assumption is ideally a nonviolent method of doing that would be better; evade them instead of cast a spell. But ultimately, once they snap your wand, it’s over. Like, yeah, other wands can be yours, they can choose you, too, but there’s no going back, especially from Harry’s wand in particular.

Meg: Well, unless you’re Dumbledore and you have the Elder Wand. You can just Reparo that right there.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, that’s true.

Micah: Harry’s has kind of already served its purpose last year.

Eric: Last year? Well, it needs to again!

Micah: So time for a new one.

Eric: It needs to again. Yeah, I was going to say, I guess knowing what we know now, you could probably use… Dumbledore could just fix Harry’s wand for him, even if they had to collect it off a scrapyard or something in the magical world. So here are the succession of letters. You do get the letter saying you’re expelled. He does get the letter saying he’s expelled. The second one’s from Arthur saying, actually, that Dumbledore has arrived at the Ministry, so his vacation is cut short, unfortunately. “Sorry, bartender of JJ’s in Ibiza. Gotta go.” And the Ministry actually reverses course, sends him his third letter; this one says, “You’re not expelled. And by the way, that thing about your wand, it’s pending a hearing.” This is what the first letter should have been. This is very reasonable. It’s like, “Listen, you’re in trouble, kiddo. You have to come to court.” That alone is terrifying.

Micah: I just imagine Fudge sitting there, as soon as it happens, “Hit send, hit send, hit send!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Maybe he already sent it a couple hours ago, and it just found Harry because he wandered off. I don’t know. You just don’t know. A letter…

Andrew: Has anyone here ever been in court, like as somebody who needs to be in court to defend…?

Micah: As a jury member.

Andrew: Oh, okay. I had to go to court to get a speeding ticket overturned.

Micah: Oooh.

Andrew: Yeah, that was scary, too. Not fun at all.

Eric: Well, and the worst part is even when a well-meaning judge is critiquing your wording or something. It’s like you can tell they want to help you out, but you’re still doing things wrong. It’s very stressful. I’ve had a few tickets myself. [laughs]

Andrew: That literally happened to me. You’re doing the “Yes, Your Honor. No, Your Honor.” I said yes or no when I should have said the opposite, [laughs] and then he looked at me like, “You definitely meant yes.” Or no; I can’t remember. This happened over ten years ago.

Meg: And then he snapped your wand.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, womp-womp. So did anyone think…? Because this is a lot of owls. They’re finding new and inventive places to show up from. For some reason, they’ve stopped going through the open window. I don’t remember Vernon shutting the window; they just start coming through the chimney instead, so I don’t get it. But did anyone think that it’d just be easier if wizards had cell phones? Because all these owls getting cross… get your group chat going. Have the Floo Network pop up.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Have some kind of conversation here. It’s 1997 or something.

Micah: Yeah, but then if it was just a text message, would Petunia or Vernon have received anything? Or would they have been witness to it in the same way? Probably not.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: Unless because they’re Harry’s caretakers, right? Maybe they would have gotten something. But I also don’t see Vernon or Petunia as email/cell phone type of people. They’re very old school. I could see maybe a flip phone. [laughs]

Eric: I don’t know; Petunia’s got the push alerts on TMZ, for sure.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: I like the owls because I like how many there are in this chapter. I like how fast they arrive; that’s really impressive. It just makes it way more entertaining. And also, it really annoys Vernon, which is a lot of fun as well for us.

Micah: Agreed.

Meg: And it’s more of the juxtaposition against the pristine, clean kitchen to imagine feathers all over the place now.

Micah: And owl droppings, hopefully. So Andrew, a question, though: Do we think there’s some magic tied to how these owls are traveling? Because this information is coming pretty much in real time.

Andrew: It is a good question. Can they expedite the owls? Are these a special type of owl that can get a message out faster? It makes sense that the wizarding world would have this faster type of delivery to replace something like text messaging, like Eric is describing, so…

Eric: Well, don’t they…? In Hogsmeade, the owls… isn’t there different tiers for how fast you want? Like, the nicer looking owls get it in a day and a half, and then there’s lower…? I seem to remember incorrectly. There are different tiers of owls. But what’s interesting for me is the one addressed to Petunia, which we know is a Howler, is addressed the same way Harry’s Hogwarts letters are. It says “Petunia Dursley, The Kitchen, 4 Privet Drive.” Who’s watching her?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: How do they…? They’re not supposed to be able to look in the window and see where Harry is, let alone where Petunia, a Muggle, is. This is terrifying power.

Andrew: Well, right.

Micah: And what triggers that, though? That’s the other thing, is did Dumbledore have that Howler made years ago and was just waiting to send it at the right moment?

Eric: He has one for every room of the house that she’s in.

Andrew: I’m going to say you write the name on the envelope, and you write the address itself, and then there’s some magical line that fills itself in. It identifies where exactly this person is. There’s still that question: How do you figure out where a Muggle is? A wizard you might be able to more easily explain, but a Muggle like Petunia, how do you know she’s in the kitchen? It’s fascinating, and I think Petunia was fascinated too.

Meg: There’s got to be some magic there. Because actually, I looked into this a little bit – I did some research – and the top speed of the average owl is 40 miles per hour. And Surrey, where Harry and the Dursleys are, is about 25 miles from London, which is where the Ministry is and it’s where Grimmauld Place is, which is where Sirius and presumably Arthur, at the time, are. So based on that, unless the first owl was sent right after Harry did the Patronus Charm, like, if it was triggered by that, and then it just took half an hour, 45 minutes, to get there… yeah, maybe it was something like that, but then there’s the thing that Dumbledore’s comes right after Vernon is like, “All right, kid, you’re out of here. Get out,” and when Vernon and Petunia are first starting to think, “Yeah, okay, maybe we should get rid of our terrible nephew.” And it’s like, right then is when the Howler comes. So there just has to be some kind of magic there about just keeping tabs on what is happening right at that moment, who is standing where, who is in the kitchen at that time, because that’s how the letters to Harry are also, in Sorcerer’s Stone.

Andrew: Right.

Meg: It’s like, “The cupboard under the stairs,” and then I think…

Eric: “The smallest bedroom.” That’s a little bit of sass there.

Micah: Big Brother.

Meg: “The Hut on the Rock.” It might even have been, like, “The floor next to the couch of the Hut on the Rock.”

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Meg, when you were talking about the speed of owls, I was like, “And these aren’t even unladen owls!”

Meg: Yeah, no!

Eric: These are very much laden.

Meg: Laden or unladen? African or European?

Andrew: Nice research, Meg. Sam is also wondering, “Maybe it’s a relay of owls.” I guess that could make sense.

Eric: Oh, they… I’d love to see… I’m thinking of a foot relay in the race where they have batons, but of owls, and they toss the letter.

Meg: The owls passing it along to the next one.

Eric: No, it is satisfying, because it is fast paced. As soon as you begin to worry that Harry is going to get kicked out, you then have Petunia saying, “No, he needs to stay.” All right, well, we’re going to talk a little bit more about Harry’s aunt in a few moments, but first, let’s hear a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: Welcome back. Okay, let’s talk about Petunia Dursley, who knows a lot more, it turns out, than she was letting on. So Harry is kind of bemused. He is struggling to defend himself, make sure the Dursleys know it wasn’t him; it sure looks like it was him. But ultimately, he’s very patient during the whole owl debacle. He’s able to just… he has no other choice but to sit there and… because every letter is telling him to sit there. But he’s, I think, a little comforted knowing that people are taking care of him, and something really strange is going on, ultimately. But the shock comes when Petunia recognizes… well, first, even before Dumbledore’s letter, she realizes what Dementors are, and this is unbelievable. He’s trying to defend himself. He’s like, “It wasn’t me; there’s these Dementors.” And Petunia kind of defends it. I mean, she at least knows, and it’s probably not a fact that you forget what they are if you overhear them. But this goes back years. This is literally… it’s literally said the only other time Aunt Petunia has ever spoken about Lily in front of Harry is that one time in front of Hagrid at the Hut on the Rock when she called her a freak, so this idea that she would have been overhearing conversations or literally betray any knowledge of the wizarding… I think Petunia even surprises herself here.

Micah: It’s also validation of Harry’s story in this moment, the fact that she knows what it is he’s talking about, and I think that goes a long way with Vernon because Vernon otherwise probably would just assume that Harry is making up a bunch of stuff here. And I also think this is just a reminder that Harry is a child still. We know he’s a teenage boy, but both him and us as the reader don’t know everything, and this whole chapter has that theme running through it, going back to when we were talking about what we enjoyed so much about the chapter earlier. Yeah, the revelation of Figg and then the revelation of Petunia. It reminds me of when you’re a kid and you recognize that your parents or whomever know a lot more than you think they do.

Eric: [laughs] Right.

Micah: And this is one of those examples.

Andrew: But the interesting twist here, too, that is Harry had every reason to assume that Petunia really did not know anything about the wizarding world, or care.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I mean, as is noted in this chapter, she has never acknowledged its existence. She has been firmly on Vernon’s side. And of course, there’s more to come with this storyline, but this is a big deal, seeing Petunia recognize what Harry is talking about, while Vernon is also coming up with six or seven different words for Dementors, like “Dementoids,” other things, which was funny.

Meg: “Dismembers.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Dismembers,” yeah, yeah. But just Harry – we were using this word a lot last week – he’s so isolated, and he has actually, in a funny way, a partner in Petunia, because somebody’s believing and understanding what he has to say, not to mention when he brings up Voldemort in a little bit, too. Petunia recognizes that. So I just loved getting this ever so small hint that Petunia actually was curious about the wizarding world and was envious of Lily. And as was mentioned, Vernon seems surprised that Petunia remembers, too, and gets in lockstep with her by the end of the chapter, especially after the Howler comes in. I’ll read the quote from Petunia:

“‘Back?’ whispered Petunia. She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before… for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother’s sister… he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean.”

Micah: And in this moment, too, we get the reference to “that awful boy” was the one who was telling Lily about Azkaban. Now, in this moment, we’re meant to think that it’s James. Who else could it possibly be? But in all likelihood, this is a reference to Snape.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely.

Meg: And that’s poignant for multiple reasons, and one of them is that when you’re first reading this book, before the later books came out, you’re imagining that it is James, in which case, Petunia heard James and Lily talking about this 15 years ago. But in discovering the truth later in Deathly Hallows that it was Snape, and that she overheard this when they were young children, that really shows that this has been in Petunia’s head for a lot longer than you would think. And when you think about the things that you remember from when you were 10 years old, it is the things that are the most groundbreaking and earth-shattering that are… those are the specific things that you’re going to remember from that time when you were that age, is when it’s something that has made an emotional impact on you, and that’s what this did, enough for Petunia to remember these silly words “Dementors” and “Azkaban” all this time later.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Especially because she wanted to go there herself. I think that’s probably why it sticks with her.

Eric: Well, yeah, she’s probably…

Micah: Not that she wants to go to Azkaban. I’m sorry. She wants to go to Hogwarts.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, no, yeah.

Andrew: We understood what you meant.

Micah: Maybe she wants to go to Azkaban. I don’t know.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: She’s probably holding on to every shred… she’s secretly caring about and trying to remember everything she ever heard about the wizarding world, because I’m sure it still bites, it still hurts her that she’s not a part of it, I think, easily. But it also… I feel sad for 10-, 11-, 12-year-old Severus Snape, whoever’s telling Lily about these Dementors guarding Azkaban, the wizard prison. Why does a 12-year-old concern himself with stuff like this? We know his home life was not great, and his subject matter always tended to the darker stuff. But it’s just kind of sad because if Petunia overheard it, it means it was something that young Snape was probably really fascinated about, and that’s just sad. You know who we probably don’t feel sad for? Vernon. He is a little out of his depth, though. It’s rarely been two against one and he’s the one, but in this case, he’s just out of his… he doesn’t have… he’s so unmoored. This reminds me of Book 1 when he’s trying to go easy on Petunia, but she’s clearly more involved than they both would want her to be.

Andrew and Meg: Yeah.

Meg: So frequently Vernon is the one making the rules and yelling at Harry while Petunia just kind of watches, but in this moment, her saying these things, it really… he hands it over to her because he doesn’t know what to say. That’s when he starts taking it all a little bit more seriously. He changes his tact. He stops yelling at Harry, and instead is like, “Okay, so tell me more about these Dementoids?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Meg: And yeah, he really is unmoored. And it’s funny when he then kind of finds himself back on solid ground when he’s talking about the Dementors, and to Dudley, he’s like, “Ah, I see. You fought ’em off. You gave ’em the old one-two.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Harry has to be like, “Disclaimer, community note: You can’t give the Dementor the old one-two! It won’t work!”

[Meg laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: I do think there’s something to be said, though, for Vernon’s ignorance. Even in this moment, it’s still coming through, the fact that he can’t call Dementors by their actual name. It’s not because he’s not smart enough, or that he’s mishearing what his wife or his nephew are saying; he’s just choosing not to, and that just shows his clear lack of respect for anything from this world.

Meg: And there’s even that funny thing where he’s like, “This Lord Voldy whatsit?” And Harry is like, “I can’t believe that wizards would scream in fear hearing that name and Vernon can just say it like it’s no problem, but he can’t handle the word ‘wand’ or ‘magic.'”

Andrew: Yeah. And on the point about Vernon getting in lockstep with Petunia after she gets this Howler, that point is punctuated by the fact that this chapter ends with Vernon saying, “You heard your aunt, now get to bed.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He just did a 180. He was ready to kick him out of the house. He had a whole great speech. “I’m done dealing with you and all this magic and these owls and all this crazy stuff you’ve brought onto my doorstep. Never darken my doorstep again,” he says.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He just totally flips when Petunia gets this.

Eric: Well, he’s laying down the law, no matter what the law is. He’s just laying it down.

Andrew: I love that the chapter ends with him just flipping like that. Now, on this Howler that just simply says, “Remember my last, Petunia.”

Eric: So many problems with this.

Andrew: Well, first of all, I think Petunia is low-key excited to get something from the wizarding world.

Eric: “A letter! It’s my Hogwarts letter, you guys!”

Andrew: “Yeah, and it’s creepy, but it knows exactly where I am standing right now in the kitchen.”

[Micah laughs]

Meg: An owl brought it!

Eric: It’s a little exciting, yeah.

Andrew: I think she’s excited! It’s a chaotic scene, but I think she’s happy.

Micah: I think under any other circumstance, she would be very happy. [laughs] Not at this moment.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: There’s too much other stuff going on. But I like your idea, Andrew.

Andrew: I’m excited for her, I’ll just put it that way. I’m excited for her to finally get her letter. [laughs]

Meg: I can imagine that maybe she’s thinking to herself, “God, I thought I’d be excited when this day came. Turns out I’m terrified.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “This thing is screaming at me.”

Meg: “This day sucks.”

Micah: I think terrified is right, because perhaps deep down she knows what it is.

Andrew: Yeah. But Eric, you are not a fan of these words?

Eric: Yeah. I’m sure we’ve said it before: I think there’s a few very key errors here. It’s a weird thing for Dumbledore to say. The weirdest thing about this is it works. Petunia, who we don’t know has ever had a face-to-face conversation with Dumbledore in her life, recognizes Dumbledore’s voice and knows exactly what “Remember my last” means. Last what? Harry, who’s heard Dumbledore in all states of agitation, all states of humor and everything, knows Dumbledore intimately, even at this point when he’s only 15, knows Dumbledore’s voice like the back of his hand, and doesn’t recognize the voice. And I don’t get it, but it’s clearly…

Andrew: But all caps? Does he know all-caps Albus? [angrily] “REMEMBER MY LAST, PETUNIA.”

Eric: You know what? No, because in Goblet of Fire, he said it calmly. You’re right.

Meg: That’s right.

Eric: So Harry has never heard screaming Dumbledore. But why has Petunia? Why has Petunia? Last what? Last correspondence?

Andrew: Who else has spoken to her in the wizarding world? So she doesn’t have many people to run through in her magical Rolodex.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I love how short this letter is, this note is. “Remember my last.” You said it, Eric: Last what? From a reader’s standpoint, it’s just incredible how short this is and what it’s alluding to. I love it.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, we do…

Meg: It’s very succinct.

Andrew: And the impact that it has on Petunia. Love it.

Eric: Brevity is the soul of wit. She’s terrified to get this, and she knows that it means she has to stop being a horrible human, which is great. It somehow achieves… in a chapter where we talked about all the things Dumbledore did that went kind of wrong for him, this is 100% success for Albus.

Micah: I don’t think she’s being a horrible human being here.

Eric: No, not here.

Micah: I don’t think Vernon is being a horrible human being here. We could talk about it, but…

Andrew: He’s not?

Micah: No.

Eric: If she had said he has to leave… she actually puts up and says, “Okay, the boy has to stay.” And this has been answered by the author; “Remember my last” means the last correspondence, presumably the letter that he left with Harry on the doorstep, and it may have laid out exactly how the magical protection is going to work, explaining that they need to give Harry a house or it’ll be awful. So that is the connection that she’s making in this moment.

Micah: The thing that I’m trying to… with the Dursleys, for all their faults, in this case, I really do believe that Vernon is trying to protect his family. And once he learns that Voldemort has returned, and he understands what that means, that directly puts his family in danger. The Dementors directly put Dudley in danger, and they were after Harry. And so what he’s looking at now is a situation where essentially, because of this protection, Dumbledore has indirectly put his family in danger by making this the safe haven for Harry. Now, Harry had already been there enough time for the summer. He could have gone to the Burrow; he could have gone anywhere else. And I don’t think that Dumbledore, honestly, is thinking enough about the Dursleys in this moment. And we don’t really see it come into play until Deathly Hallows, when they need to hightail it out of town to be safe. But they could have been put at risk, and were put at risk, much earlier, and so I don’t blame Vernon for what he says. I mean, he’s just looking to protect his wife and his son.

Eric: I guess that’s fair.

Meg: He saw a curse happen to Dudley, made him grow a tail. He saw his sister get blown up over the dining room table. And now, this has happened with the Dementors. And I honestly think that if Harry had not performed a Patronus Charm, if the Dementors had performed the Dementor’s Kiss on Dudley, I think even Petunia would be telling Harry to get out. Because I think there is a certain loyalty that Petunia feels to Lily to take care of her son… Andrew, you put in here, the doc, “We don’t know it now, but Petunia does love Harry and her sister.” And I think that, yeah, Petunia loved Lily, but I don’t think that Petunia loves Harry. I think that Petunia and Snape have a lot in common, both just having very isolated childhoods, wanting to have something they couldn’t have, and feeling this… owing it to Lily to take care of Harry because of their love for Lily, not out of any love for Harry. It’s like when Dumbledore says to Snape, “Oh, don’t tell me that you’ve started to care for the boy,” and Snape is like, “No, this is for Lily still!” I imagine that is what Petunia is thinking this whole time. She’s like, “I hate this kid, but I let my relationship with my sister fall apart because I was jealous of the life that she got to have doing magic.” So I think that the reason that this letter works, this “Remember my last, Petunia,” is because Petunia is like, “Yeah, I do owe it to my sister.” So I think she does love Lily, she did love Lily as her sister, but I think she loves Dudley more than she loved Lily, and so if Dudley had lost his soul that day, I think Petunia would have been saying, “Yeah, no, I’m done. Get out of here. I don’t care.”

Eric: In further support of the Dursleys. I can’t believe I’m saying this. But isn’t getting your soul sucked out through your nose one of the most horrible ways you can imagine dying? [laughs] I mean, the particular nature of what would have and almost did happen to Dudley is extra unsettling.

Andrew: Meg, I agree with you that Petunia definitely loves Lily more than Harry. I do have to still think, though, that Petunia does love Harry to some extent. That is still blood; that is still her sister’s son, so I think there has to be a little bit of love there. And then you put in the wizard element as well; I mean, he also has something that she’s always wanted as well, so she might maybe admire that about him. But I don’t know. I personally wouldn’t say that Petunia doesn’t love Harry at all, but I do also agree that at the end of the day, if Dudley were to have been kissed by the Dementor, she would have kicked Harry out because that is her son, and he died on Harry’s watch.

Meg: Yeah. I just think of all the aspects of abuse, the malnourishment, the locking him up for days at a time, and I’m like, “That can’t be love.” But then that really gets into a more serious discussion about other abusive parents in the real world, and can you abuse your children and love them at the same time? Which is just a whole other conversation, I think.

Andrew: And the Vernon factor, too, there.

Meg: And the Vernon factor.

Andrew: I mean, how does she juggle these two things? Lily versus Vernon.

Micah: I wonder, too, if in fact he did leave, would that have broken the protection? Is her giving him that directive and then him acting on it… does that fracture any protection that was in place? Could Harry not go back a year later and have that same protection from Petunia?

Meg: Probably. I think he could go back later, but it wouldn’t be there anymore, because I think Dumbledore even specifically says to Harry, “As long as you thought of Privet Drive as home, the protection is there.”

Andrew: Yeah, I think that’s right.

Micah: [laughs] I don’t think he ever did.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s his home in spite of everything.

Andrew: But it was given to him as a home. It is offered to him as a home, yeah. So we got feedback from our listeners about this chapter, and we will get to some of that, but first we’re going to take a quick break. We will be right back.

[Ad break]


Lynx Line


Eric: Okay, and here is the question we asked on our Lynx Line: We’re talking about the wizarding world justice system, and asking what do you think could be improved upon better? So in Chapter 2, the Ministry of Magic expels Harry from Hogwarts and says a team has been dispatched to destroy his wand, all without a fair trial. Does that law serve anyone? Furthermore, the way in which Dumbledore fixes things makes a lot more sense. Hearing first, then decision to either expel and/or snap Harry’s wand. But what else are we forgetting? This is the same Ministry that will fail to seriously inquire about how Dementors ended up in Little Whinging, and nobody’s expecting Dementors to have been the reason for Harry’s underage magic. So what adjustments to the Restriction of Underage Sorcery, or what adjustments to the trace, should be revised or thrown out completely, and in what ways to create a more fair situation?

Andrew: So yeah, thank you to patrons who participated in the post at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You can pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast to join in on the conversation each week. Here are some of the answers. This first one comes from Jenny:

“I think the wizarding world justice system is terrible. No one seems to get fair trials. Sirius was imprisoned for 12 years without a trial. Hagrid was taken to Azkaban in Book 2, just because the powers that be figured he was guilty. They seem to care nothing for evidence, testimonies, innocence, etc., and the only punishments seem to be broken wand or Azkaban, and nothing in between. That’s not justice.”

Sums it up really nicely. I mean, it is so unfair that Harry is going to have his wand broken and he’s expelled from Hogwarts, and he doesn’t even get a say in the situation. Now, Dumbledore does come to his aid, but that’s traumatizing to know your life could be flipped upside down so quickly by the government.

Eric: At least this time it’s because of something that he cast, and not something a house-elf cast in front of him.

Micah: All right, we heard from Nathan, who said,

“Breaking a wand is a major plot hole. Harry does magic, albeit simple, in both Sorcerer’s Stone and Prisoner of Azkaban without a wand, and there’s nonverbal spells. We also know that a broken wand still works, examples being Ron in Chamber of Secrets and Hagrid with his pink umbrella. What’s stopping Harry from going to Ollivanders and getting another wand?”

Eric: [laughs] I bet that…

Andrew: And you have to think Dumbledore would help him with that. He would call up Ollivander and be like, “Yo, my boy needs another wand.”

Eric: “Hey, Garrick…”

Andrew: “Those jerks at the Ministry broke his first one, and he didn’t deserve that.”

Meg: Yeah, we see characters like Ron and Neville get new wands. All right, Steph says, “This is what happens when Hogwarts students only learn Charms, Transfiguration, etc., and nothing about law, ethics, or basic critical thinking skills.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, no! It’s endemic at this point. Nobody who’s studied government…

Andrew: How to protect yourself when the Ministry comes for you.

Eric: Not only that; nobody who’s making these laws actually studied law, so that’s why they’re coming up short. It’s awful. Eleanor writes,

“Where do I start… innocent until proven guilty and a process is what is needed. The trace should be able to tell, ideally, what spell was cast. An alternative would be Priori Incantatem, and there should be an investigation into the circumstances.”

Right, they could cast it on Harry’s wand.

“We know that the trace isn’t wand specific. It arguably should be, as an addition to allow for these follow-up enquiries.”

Yeah, I agree. Somewhere where I would start reforming this is all about “What was the intention behind,” and none of this “We’re just going to come snap your wand and complain about it later” business.

Andrew: You could almost see a form of magic with all these wands where the tip of the wand is not only where the spell comes out from, but there’s also a little camera in there, so you can see who they are shooting it at.

Eric: Ohh, a GoPro? Little wand GoPro?

Andrew: I could see that in a Fantastic Beasts movie when they’re trying to bend canon to make it work to their will. [laughs] Yeah, a little GoPro, exactly.

Eric: Yeah, they’ve done that a bunch.

Andrew: Right. Rachel said,

“We don’t know a ton about these laws. I think it’d be more appropriate to confiscate the wand and then destroy it after a hearing or punishment has been decided, because the charges may not warrant expulsion, and then the kid could get the wand back.”

Also, that would be very… I’m just talking myself now; it’d be very hurtful as a child to see your wand get broken in half. That was a big moment for you to get your wand, and then it gets snapped in half when you’ve only been at school for four or five years?

Meg: Being like, “That wand chose me.”

Eric: Yeah, aww. “But it chose me.” Oh, now my heart is broken.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s bad enough when the teacher takes your cell phone because you were on your cell phone, and she puts it in her desk and you can get it back right at the end of class. That’s hard enough, but to watch her stomp on the cell phone? Then you have to cry to your parents… it’s awful.

Andrew: Yeah. Rachel goes on,

“This has really gotten me to think about data privacy and government oversight. Not only do they know magic was done, they know the exact spell. Does that ability to trace magic really stop at 17, or do they just not follow it as closely? Could they still trace a person of interest? We don’t know. Maybe this is an extreme example, but I’m thinking about how outraged or afraid people would be if it came out that our data and actions online were being tracked by the government, and I feel like tracing magic is similar. I know it’s important to keep the magical world a secret, but I also don’t like the ‘Big Brother is watching’ vibe.”

Eric: That’s what happens with the taboo, isn’t it? In Book 7? When somebody says the word “Voldemort” and they immediately know who you are, where you are…

Andrew: Yeah, Big Fudge is watching you. Be careful.

Eric: [laughs] Big Fudge.

Andrew and Meg: Big Fudger.

Andrew: Episode title.

[Andrew and Meg laugh]

Micah: Big Fudge. And finally, we heard from Stephanie, who says,

“Clearly, Fudge is ‘weaponizing the justice system’ (a familiar phrase lately in US politics) to remove the threats to stability in the wizarding world. Because we don’t know much about the specifics of these laws, it kind of feels like the administration is the issue here, and maybe not the laws themselves.”

Eric: Right, this is targeted, and Dumbledore points this out later – might be a movie-ism – but he says, “Surely it’s regular procedure to have a full council to decide a simple matter of magic in front of Muggles.” And it’s true, the deck is stacked against Harry. If Fudge had nothing to do with the Dementors, which he didn’t – it’s plausible deniability; Dolores planned that specifically – he nevertheless is jumping on every opportunity to discredit Harry. He wants his wand broken. If Harry is wandless, he would perceive him as not a threat anymore to the lies that he’s trying to tell.

Andrew: Well, thanks again to everybody who participated at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’re loving this new Lynx Line segment, and we’ll continue to post questions with each chapter weekly.


Make the Personal Connection


Eric: I want to hear what your guys’ personal connections might be. Is there anything in this chapter that resonates with you for something that occurred recently?

Andrew: Yeah, so Harry, in this chapter, gets this really bad news that he’s going to be expelled, and they’re going to snap his wand, and it reminded me of when you receive really bad news in your own life. The thing is that you might get this bad news and it might be true. You might end up being expelled. Your wand might be broken; turn that into whatever example that’s happened in your own life that was terrible and actually did happen. But things always do work out in the end. My Make the Personal Connection here is I’ve been through really tough situations in my life, and things have always worked out. Always.

Eric: That’s really… I mean, I’m glad to hear it. It definitely is…

Andrew: Yeah, and I try to keep that in mind, even as bad news comes up in the future too. It’s like, “Yes, things are bad, but it will get better. Things will get better. You will get through this.”

Eric: There’s that line in Fantastic Beasts: “Worrying means you suffer twice.”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. “Everything happens for a reason,” as is said. You might lose a job, but then one door closes, another one opens. If Harry actually was expelled from Hogwarts, he would have gone on to become a best-selling author, or had a really successful podcast about his life as the Chosen One.

[Meg and Micah laugh]

Eric: He should dip into his family fortune and start selling hair potion.

[Andrew laughs]

Meg: My personal connection was a little more lighthearted. Reading about all these owls flying in reminded me of something that I experienced several summers ago during a sort of extended family reunion at my grandparents’ home in Vermont. There were four nights in a row where every night, the sun would set, and then all of a sudden, there would be a bat in the house. And later we found out there was one just living in the attic, and bats are crepuscular, so they hunt at dusk, and so it would be time for dinner every night, and they’d try to get out of the attic and somehow end up in the house.

Andrew: Oof.

Meg: And they fly very quickly. They swoop. I had a lot of inebriated aunts, uncles, and cousins when this was happening, so there was a lot of screaming.

[Micah laughs]

Meg: The dogs were barking. And yeah, three nights in a row, I was tasked with getting the bat out of the house. And I did my research, and it was a little brown bat, and less than 1% of those carry rabies, so I felt pretty confident in getting them outside, back into the outdoors.

Eric: I thought you were going to say you did your research on how to do it, but didn’t you just take a towel to them?

[Meg laughs]

Eric: And say, “Here, batty, batty, batty!”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Meg: Well, I did have the idea… I was like, “I’m not going to grab a bat with my bare hands, even if the risk of rabies is very, very low.” But it’s hard to… I tried to catch them with the towel in the air, and they’re just real fast.

Andrew: I bet, yeah.

Meg: And they use their echolocation, so they’re like, “There’s a towel there; I’m going to swoop in the other direction.”

Eric: Oh, it knows how to avoid the fast…? Oh, man. Sometimes it get…

Meg: Eventually they would just land on the floor, and they’re really cute when they’re on the floor, just crawling around a little bit.

Eric: So then you invited it in to stay.

Meg: And then I would throw… yeah, well, that’s what I wanted to do, but my aunts and uncles were like, “You can’t do that.”

Eric: I bet at one point, your uncle was probably like, “Enough effing bats!”

[Andrew laughs]

Meg: “Enough effing bats!” My mom was probably thinking that. So I just threw a towel over them, and then I’d scoop them up and take them outside and look at their little puppy faces, say, “Goodbye, peck of bats.”

Eric: “See you tomorrow.” So you’re saying they never plugged that hole?

Meg: They did. They did eventually get someone to come… which is why, in the last few summers, we haven’t had any bats.

Eric: Great.

Andrew: Oh, good. Crisis averted.

Meg: But we’ve had raccoons in another house; that’s another story.

Eric: See, that was a harrowing situation, and it got better.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Meg: Yes! Exactly.

Andrew: It always gets better.

[Eric laughs]


MVP of the Week


Eric: And it’s time for our not MVP, but custom Most Something-Something of the Week. This week – great idea, Andrew – the most wicked Figg line. She’s had a lot of good zingers. She’s irate at the beginning of the chapter; she says a ton of funny stuff. What’s our favorite?

Andrew: Very colorful, yeah. And I want everybody to try and do their own Figg impression when reciting their line.

Eric: Oh, boy. Okay, all right.

Andrew: So mine is… and this is not going to be a good impression, but here we go. [imitating Mrs. Figg] “Oh my word, what a catastrophe… and you had to fight them off yourself… and Dumbledore said we were to keep you from doing magic at all costs… Well, it’s no good crying over spilled potion, I suppose… but the cat’s among the pixies now.” [laughs] The idioms are what kill me here, the back to back idioms.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “No good crying over spilled potion.” “The cat’s among the pixies now.”

[Andrew and Meg laugh]

Micah: That was very good, though, Andrew.

Eric: That was incredible.

Micah: Give yourself more credit.

Andrew: [imitating Mrs. Figg] Oh, thank you! It’s my standard older lady voice, yes.

Micah: Grandma voice?

Meg: It kind of sounds a little bit like Mickey Mouse too.

Andrew: Oh, boy. [imitating Mickey Mouse] “Oh, boy!”

Meg: Figgy Mouse.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, God. Okay, I’m not sold on my impression, but great, wicked Figg line: [imitating Mrs. Figg] “‘I hope Dumbledore murders him!’ said Mrs. Figg furiously.” Yeah, I hope so, too, but it won’t happen.

Micah: Oh, I went with, [imitating Mrs. Figg] “I told him I’d flay him alive if he went, and now look! Dementors!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Figg has had it!

Meg: My wicked line is one that she says that’s wicked towards Harry, not Mundungus. But it’s when she says, [imitating Mrs. Figg] “Good lord, boy, they told me you were intelligent.”

Andrew: Oh, that was a good one too!

Micah: That was good.

Andrew: She sounded weak, too, which is appropriate.

Meg: She’s frail, but she’s bold and strong.

Micah: This gives a whole new appreciation to Jim Dale and Stephen Fry. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, especially Jim Dale.

Eric: It’s not easy. They make it look easy.

Andrew: Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 3 of Book 5, “The Advance Guard.” Here comes the cavalry.


Quizzitch


Eric: And here also comes Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: In reference to the drought that’s happening in the beginning of Book 5, what is the hottest temperature ever recorded in the United Kingdom? And we did go easy on people by saying guesses within three degrees would be accepted, and they could answer in Fahrenheit or Celsius. So the hottest temperature ever recorded in the United Kingdom was in Coningsby, Lincolnshire on July 19, 2022. This is recent. And it was 40.3 degrees Celsius, or 104.5 degrees Fahrenheit. And remember, these homes are not equipped with your HVAC, so ouch, it’s a scorcher. Correct answers were submitted in both centigrade and Fahrenheit by Deb W.; Figg’s Fumbly Phone; “I didn’t look it up because I live in the UK, and it’s never warm here”… okay. It’s just a bunch of hocus pocus!; Jiggly Jane; That extra cringe when Aunt Petunia says Diddy…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: … The Black Lake plumber, no thanks to Hogwarts Castle. Okay, that’s an interesting week. Here is next week’s question: In honor of “A Peck of Owls,” in Scotland, the peck was used as a dry measure until the introduction of imperial units as a result of the Weights and Measures Act of what year? What year did Scotland’s Weights and Measures Act take effect, eliminating the peck as a unit of measurement? And guaranteed if a single person knew this without looking it up, that’s cool, and I admire you. But it’s okay; this is our open book quiz. Submit…

Micah: I feel like I should know. I was just there. [laughs]

Eric: You were just there! Micah, don’t they have a little sign that says “Established before the Weights and Measures Act” before you enter any bar?

Micah: Well, it’s interesting that you bring that up, though, because there is on the roadway sign “miles” instead of…

Eric: Kilometers?

Micah: Maybe not instead of; it may have both. But it has to do with when they were brought into the United Kingdom.

Andrew and Eric: Interesting.

Micah: I think I got that right. Anyway. Because normally you never see “miles” as distance in the UK.

Andrew and Eric: Right.

Micah: So maybe this is tied into this particular act.

Eric: I’ll give you a hint: It was before the Model T.

Micah: Okay.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So here is how you submit your Quizzitch answer: Please visit the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website, maybe checking out the lovely transcripts that Meg is working hard on every week, you might ponder over to click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav. And I look forward to the answers on this one. And oh, thanks to people who pointed out I accidentally locked answers before last week. I’ll do that right now, and they’re unlocked. So have fun.

Andrew: Yeah, we’re very excited to have transcripts for each episode of MuggleCast, and Meg is working diligently to get our most recent episodes transcribed after they are released, but also she’s been slowly but surely going through our back catalog to get that entire library updated. So thanks so much, Meg, for doing that for us.

Meg: You’re welcome. I’ve been prioritizing the previous Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapters, but also the Must Listens page, and it’s been very exciting for me to get to listen back to some of those Wall of Fame episodes.

Andrew: Cool. And you’re not sick of our voices yet.

Meg: Not yet!

Andrew: Cool! Great! Good to know.

Meg: We’ll see in another year, but so far we’re good.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: I keep checking in with her, really. It’s like, “Good morning, honey. Are you sick of my voice yet?”

[Andrew and Meg laugh]

Andrew: And she’s like, “Shut up.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “A little more every time you ask,” I think she said, yeah.

[Meg laughs]

Andrew: Now, if we were doing our Figg voices in every episode, you probably would grow very tired of the voices. And our own voices would grow tired, I think, of doing that. It’s a win-win.

Meg: Well, it is exciting, Andrew, when I get to put in brackets “imitating Dumbledore” for some things you say.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Meg: Keeps it fresh.

Andrew: Well, this show is a lot of work, and we’re very proud of it, but we are an indie podcast. Your financial support is of the utmost importance; it is the only reason we’ve been able to podcast and run this show for 19 years. So if you’re interested in helping us out, there are two great ways. First, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of each episode of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And for even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us, because you get a lot more – visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus our livestreams, yearly stickers, a physical gift like a T-shirt, signed album art, a tote bag, or a mug. We do a different one each year. One year we did a wand, which is probably our best gift yet. You also get a video message from one of the four of us made just for you. You also get access to our private Facebook and Discord groups and a lot more, so check it all out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please tell a friend about the podcast and help us spread the word by also leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. And visit MuggleCast.com for those transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, Quizzitch, and much more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Meg: And I’m Meg.

Andrew: Thanks again, Meg. Bye, everyone.

Eric, Meg, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #675

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #675, Figg’s Bat Phone (OOTP Chapter 1, Dudley Demented)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Grab your wand – I should grab my wand – and keep an eye on your neighbors, because this week, we begin our Chapter by Chapter reread of Order of the Phoenix with Chapter 1, “Dudley Demented.” Very excited to jump into Chapter by Chapter, but first we have some sad news about a member of the fandom.

Micah: Yeah, as you mentioned, Andrew, we got some sad news at the beginning of last week about one of the members of the Harry Potter fandom, Caleb Graves. He worked with many of us at MuggleNet for a number of years, and was a cohost on the Alohomora podcast. Eric, I know you and him had very many spirited debates, from what I heard…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and he was just a great guy, a friend to all of us, and somebody who I really got to know over the years and would always hang out with whenever he was in New York. We would grab a drink, or when he was going to Georgetown Law down in DC and I was there for work, we would grab a drink. So just somebody I had stayed in touch with very closely. And one of the things that I’m always grateful for, for Harry Potter for doing, is the friends that you make along the way, and we talk about it a lot on this podcast. Without Harry Potter, we wouldn’t have met each other, and the same is true with Caleb, and it’s just a very tragic, heart-wrenching situation.

Eric: Yeah, it definitely… this news always hurts. He was so young. We knew him. We were on over 100 episodes of the podcast together, and it’s really sad. One of the good ones. This reminds me that life’s too short not to tell your friends that you love them; that’s really what the takeaway I have for this, so definitely… even just a text message. Call your friends, tell them you love them, because you’re going to potentially regret not getting to if something horrible were to happen, like it did here.

Andrew: Yeah, and something I’ll add about Caleb is that he had a lot of passions, and that was clear if you followed him on social media, and he really pursued all of them. I don’t know how he had the time to do all of them.

Eric: I know.

Andrew: He was really busy, with his love of Harry Potter and Disney and running, and then he had a really amazing career going on from what I could tell, so just…

Micah: Travel.

Andrew: Oh my God, the travel. Yeah, so like you both said, he was a really great person, and the news was shocking. So rest in peace, Caleb, and thanks for all of your contributions to the Harry Potter fandom.

Eric: We love you, man.

Andrew: Well, changing gears now, there was a little bit of Harry Potter TV show news. They announced that they are now running an open casting call for the new Harry, Ron, and Hermione. We’re actually going to be talking about this today in a new installment of bonus MuggleCast available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. Additionally, Gary Oldman, who played Sirius Black in the Harry Potter movies, it sounds like he wants to audition for a role in this Harry Potter TV show as well, [laughs] so we will talk about that and if that makes sense or not.

Eric: I think they should cast him as Ron.

Andrew: Oh, perfect. Yeah, why not?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Just not explain it. Just have a grown man…

Micah: Yeah, he could pull off the ginger.

Andrew: Yeah. So we would encourage listeners to audition for the trio, but I think you’re all probably too old. Even our youngest listeners are probably too old. They’re looking for 9-year-olds, and I don’t think we have many 9-year-olds listening. And you have to live in England.

Micah: Sebastian, our youngest listener, is too young.

Andrew: Sorry, buddy. You’ll get ’em next time.

Eric: Maybe when you’re older.

Laura: Well, hey, we have a lot of MuggleCast parents out there, so if your child decides to audition, let us know. We would love to hear about it.

Andrew: And don’t forget to credit us for connecting you with the open casting call.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yes, we must be involved in one significant cast member getting cast in this series. We must.

Andrew: [laughs] We’ll be two for two, then. Yeah, for anybody who doesn’t know, Evanna Lynch was a huge fan of MuggleNet and MuggleCast, and she heard about the Luna Lovegood open casting call on MuggleNet, and she credits that post on MuggleNet for auditioning for the role of Luna, which is just mind-blowing. So yeah, we’ve got to go for two for two.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: And Micah, you got up to some Harry Potter fun in the last week, right?

Micah: I did, yeah. After our interview with Joel, I felt like it was only natural to go see this one-part version of Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, and it was a lot of fun. And I know people have a lot of questions because it was a two-part show, but I thought it was great pacing. It went by very quickly for three and a half hours. And honestly, I wouldn’t have known if there was a scene that was noticeably missing from the first go-around. That might be because it’s been a minute since I saw the two-part version, but it didn’t feel like it lacked at all. And Andrew, I will say, they lean into Albus and Scorpius – well, you have a fanfiction…

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, okay.

Micah: … much more than I remember in the two-part version. It is clear that there’s something going on between the two of them.

Andrew: Okay, okay.

Micah: Or there’s potential for something to be going on between the two of them.

Andrew: Okay, good to know.

Micah: See ya, Rose.

Laura: Sounds like you’re going to have to write a part two, Andrew.

Andrew: [laughs] We interviewed Joel Meyers, who plays Albus, a couple of weeks ago on MuggleCast, and I was tempted to ask him about that because we had heard they maybe gayed it up a little bit between Albus and Scorpius, but I wanted to be professional and didn’t want to push my own wants and needs off on him…

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … so I avoided asking the question, but Micah went down to the scene and investigated for us, so glad to hear that.

Micah: Reported back for you.

Andrew: Yes, thank you for reporting back. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah. And got a chance to meet Joel after the show – such a nice guy – him and Eric Peterson, who played Scorpius.

Eric: Oh, very cool. I love that.

Micah: And they have a new Playbill, by the way, too.

Andrew: Whoa.

Micah: This is very different from the one that the three of us got.

Andrew: That’s gorgeous.

Eric: See, Albus Severus is in his father’s shadow. That looks great.

Andrew: I wonder if that’s fan art. Was that a fan art competition? That almost looks like something like that.

Micah: Maybe. I’ll see if I can find out a little bit more. Maybe there’s a write-up on it in there.

Andrew: Yeah, cool. Well, glad you had a good time. And I definitely want to check out that single-part version sometime.


Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner


Andrew: All right, well, without further ado, time to get to Chapter by Chapter. And before we get into the segment itself, we are actually refreshing Chapter by Chapter for Order of the Phoenix. Eric, do you want to explain that a little bit?

Eric: Yeah, so we have actually in the past, way back in 2019, discussed Order of the Phoenix as part of our Book 6/Book 5 Chapter by Chapter revamp. Chapter by Chapter originally began on MuggleCast in Episode 32, and 600 episodes later, over time, we’ve needed to refresh it. So it turns out we’ve done Seven-Word Summary and Rename the Chapter and MVP of the Week for Book 5 already, and so it became necessary to envision and dream up new segments that we’re going to be deploying during this Book 5 reread. I’m very excited.

Andrew: Yeah, and when the four of us got together in DC a few weeks ago, we brainstormed some new ideas, which you’ll be hearing some of in today’s installments, so stay tuned.

Eric: Absolutely. So shall we begin?

Andrew: Yeah!

Eric: Okay, we’re talking about Order of the Phoenix Chapter 1, titled “Dudley Demented.” And right off the gate, we’re going to introduce you to the MuggleCast Time-Turner segment…

Laura: Oooh.

Eric: … which is an audio journey, an auditory Odyssey into previous discussions on this chapter of MuggleCast. Take a listen; let us know what you think.

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.

Ron: What the…?

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 228.

Eric: What’s wrong with Harry?

Micah: He’s pissed, man.

Andrew: He’s angry. We were just talking about it.

Eric: [laughs] Sorry, I only ask that question because it was in my notes to ask that question.

Andrew: I know.

Micah: Well, he’s been cooped up for four weeks, like you said. He’s not getting any information. He’s living with people he doesn’t like.

[Bell dings]

[Whooshing sound]

Robotic voice: Episode 433.

Micah: That’s exactly what I was going to allude to with just appearances, right? You would think that the Dursleys would want Harry to look halfway decent and not have torn clothes and baggy clothes and his shoes are falling apart, just given how much they care about what other people think of them and their family.

Laura: I wonder if they’ve been pretty successful at spreading the narrative that Harry is just a degenerate, so maybe their neighbors just accept this.

Andrew: Yes.

Sequoia: Yeah, but he could be a well-clothed degenerate.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

[Whooshing sound]

[Ticking sound]

Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.

[Bell dings]

Eric: The end!

Andrew: Eric produced that. Nice job, Eric.

Laura: Well done, Eric.

Andrew: The sounds and all that.

Eric: Yeah, just a short, brief recap of where we’ve been leading into the new discussion. So again, those episodes were 433, “Gettin’ Figgy,” which came out September 9, 2019, and Episode 228, “Overpriced Non-Invisibility” for May 13, 2011. And in case you want to check out those older episodes, we’ll put them in the show notes.

Andrew: Yeah, now we’re in present day, so let’s jump into our latest discussion on this chapter.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Let’s jump into it. You know, I will never forget the earliest morning hours of June 21, 2003, cracking open the massive hardcover for the very blue Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix book. This was the first Harry Potter book I had gotten at midnight, and it was very, very late. There was a release party, and I was very exhausted, but I read the first 20 pages of the book just excitedly. But by the end of this chapter – and I powered through one more – I put the book down, and I was somewhat crestfallen, because Harry, which I at long last held in my hands, was different. I was 15, the same age as Harry, and we were not the same. He was sad. Miserable, even. The answers we were finally getting about Mrs. Figg and all the action of the first two chapters couldn’t make me feel better about Harry being neglected and left alone in the four weeks immediately following Cedric’s death. It’s kind of a sad opening. Harry is not in a great place.

Micah: Damn right, Dumbledore.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Micah knows where to pin it!

Laura: Here we go.

Eric: But do you guys remember feeling any particular way about Harry’s right-out-the-gate emotions in this book?

Andrew: Yeah, because when we jump from Goblet of Fire to Order of the Phoenix, we’re shown a very isolated Harry who’s just left out from all angles. His real family has never loved him, referring to the Dursleys. Ron and Hermione are only communicating with him via letter; they can’t see him face to face. The adults are keeping him isolated too. It’s a very different Harry. And what I really like about this chapter and how it starts is that the opening passages feel like a fresh start for Harry. He is fully reintroduced, and this story picks up on I believe it’s described as the “hottest day of summer.” Eric, you mentioned the book came out June 21, 2003, pretty well in the summer at that point, at least in some parts of America. I just loved reading this book in summer while Harry is experiencing summer himself, so I didn’t have that same crestfallen feeling that you did, Eric. But what does strike me reading it now is that, yeah, this is a very different Harry from what we saw in the last book by the end.

Micah: And let’s not forget, at the start of Goblet of Fire, there’s a lot of anticipation of going to the Quidditch World Cup, so there’s a bit more of an enjoyment factor about what’s to come, whereas in this chapter, or the start of this book, it’s much darker. To borrow a phrase from many a movie producer on the Harry Potter films.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, every year gets more difficult – understandably so – for Harry to return to his relatives. As he gains loved ones from every corner of the wizarding world, we’re consistently reminded that his actual family, as you said, just does not care for him. So there’s a lot of understandable emotions that Harry is going through, and I know in the past that we have speculated a lot about the overall angsty Harry that we get in Book 5. There are times when it’s way out of line; we’ll be sure to keep him in check. But my real question, guiding us and the discussion through this first chapter, is what do we see that strikes us as being reasonable and caused by his circumstances? What do we think is the added teenage hormones aspect of it, where he’s… I don’t know, the way a punk teenage boy would interact with an adversary in him and Dudley? And since we know about the Horcrux connection between Harry and Voldemort that’s overshadowing all of this and causing Harry to feel very prickly and on edge about everything, what bits of his behavior in this chapter with Dudley can we really attribute to just Voldemort?

Laura: I feel like a lot of the examples we’re going to talk about are really rooted in A) jealousy, and B) resentment. And I think to be entirely fair to Harry here, the Horcrux has to poison the well for everything, I think, so I think Harry is heightened across the board. That doesn’t mean that he necessarily shows up as an 11 all the time…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … but it definitely explains why he’s never beneath an 8 for this entire book.

Eric: That’s a good way of putting it, actually. Yeah, I mean, he threw out the chocolates that Ron and Hermione sent him, but to think…

Micah: They melted.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s hot. Let’s be real, he’s not going to get permission from Petunia to put those chocolates in the fridge.

Eric: Well, the floorboard could be… yeah, you’re right. You’re right, you’re right, you’re right.

Micah: And his house is definitely not air-conditioned, and certainly not his room.

Eric: No, not in the UK. And you know that Errol didn’t get it there quite in time to prevent it melting, the package from the Burrow. But all of that aside, I think he really resents Ron and Hermione particularly. He gets the sense that they’re together, and that really just adds to the overall feeling of isolation, because he’s resenting them their joy. This is not something previous Harry would have done, or Harry before these years in any circumstance, I would argue, but it hurts more that his friends are together because he wants nothing more than to be with them.

Laura: I think that might be what causes him to lash out and pick a fight with Dudley, because you’re totally right; regular Harry wouldn’t do this. The Harry of the last four books would do anything that he could to stay out of Dudley’s way, right? He didn’t want to cross paths with him, and here he’s directly antagonizing him.

Eric: Seeking him out, yeah. And for the Horcrux portion of this, I have a quote from the book that really sticks out to me, and it is when Harry is walking after the loud bang and he sees Dudley and his gang up ahead. It says,

“If Dudley’s friends saw him sitting there, they would be sure to make a beeline for him, and what would Dudley do then? He wouldn’t want to lose face in front of the gang, but he’d be terrified of provoking Harry… It would be really fun to watch Dudley’s dilemma; to taunt him, watch him, with him powerless to respond… and if any of the others tried hitting Harry, Harry was ready – he had his wand… let them try… He’d love to vent some of his frustration on the boys who had once made his life hell.”

That’s not Harry talking; I don’t care what your trauma is. “It would be fun to watch him struggle”? That’s Voldemort talk. Maybe?

Micah: Well, we get that line – I believe it’s in this book – that there’s light and dark in all of us. And I think that Harry has been isolated, and he’s feeling the effects of isolation after having gone through an extremely traumatic event at the end of the previous school year, and we’re going to talk about whether or not he should have been put in this situation, or maybe he should have been given some counseling or given some sort of help to get through what he’s going through in this moment. And I do think you could point to the Horcrux, but part of me believes that this is Harry just being frustrated, both at his current situation and at how Dudley has treated him over the years. He’s definitely goading him. He’s looking for the opportunity for them to get into it. Maybe we just haven’t seen this side of Harry before. He’s growing up. He is maturing; he’s 15 years old. This isn’t necessarily that abnormal for a teenager to feel these types of emotions toward somebody.

Eric: I just remember feeling, 21 years ago, “If this is the new Harry, no thanks. Count me out.”

Andrew: [laughs] But he must go through some challenges before he is free.

Eric: Yeah, great adversity breeds great heroism.

Laura: Yeah, and I do think there’s an interesting point here to be made about Harry wanting to watch Dudley be powerless. I think it’s funny and it’s kind of a projection, because Harry is powerless; that’s how he feels right now.

Eric: Right.

Laura: So he’s wanting to project that upon someone who’s hurt him in the past. Also, “Dudley’s Dilemma”; I guess that was the rejected name or title name for this chapter. It’s why we got “Dudley Demented.”

Eric: Whoa.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: No, I mean, I think that this is Harry projecting his pain onto someone else.

Micah: Yeah, and one question I wanted to bring up was we know Harry is in need of emotional support, that much is clear. Dumbledore chooses to isolate Harry in a known abusive environment. We see both physical and verbal abuse towards Harry from Vernon and Petunia. Now, having read through the series, we also know that Harry doesn’t need to be there for the entire summer; he likely only needs to be there for 24 hours. Why doesn’t Dumbledore work to get Harry somewhere else much, much sooner?

Laura: I was kind of wondering if he was trying to limit Harry’s exposure to whatever they’re doing to establish the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix, so that Voldemort’s connection to Harry couldn’t be exploited to perhaps communicate some of the magic that is used to obfuscate that residence from the rest of the world. We know he uses the Fidelius Charm, right? Maybe there’s something to that.

Micah: Yeah, but send him to the Burrow.

Andrew: Maybe he wanted – and I’m not saying it’s a good choice that Dumbledore made – but maybe he wanted to keep Harry separated from everybody else, because he knew Harry would ask him questions, and he wasn’t ready to provide him with any answers yet…

Micah: Classic.

Andrew: [laughs] … so they needed a little time to smooth things out before they had to face, if you will, Harry. I’m not saying it’s right.

Micah: But in fairness, Andrew, Dumbledore ignores Harry for most of this book. It’s not just a summer thing. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but he also comes into communication with Sirius and the trio – or sorry, Ron and Hermione – and maybe Dumbledore wanted to have talks with them first. And also, Figg was keeping an eye on him. Now, I know she’s a Squib who won’t be able to help, but she’s probably got a bat phone and she can call if there’s real trouble at any time.

Eric: [laughs] She got a what?

Andrew: A bat phone.

Eric: A bat phone?!

Andrew: A Dumb phone. No, that doesn’t work.

Micah: A cat phone.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, there we go.

Andrew: A phoenix phone.

Laura: But the thing is, Harry doesn’t know that she’s there and that there’s someone connected to his world who’s living near him until disaster strikes, right? And I think that’s another hit to the trust in Dumbledore and in his friends, right? That he doesn’t know.

Andrew: But I could tie my other point into this, I guess: If he knows that Figg is actually working with Dumbledore, then he’s going to start peppering Figg with questions, and Dumbledore and Figg probably don’t want that.

Eric: Well, but I would then also say maybe it is enough just to know he’s not entirely alone. Yeah, Figg has her own issues; she’s a Squib. But knowing that she knows Dumbledore, even if she can’t give him answers… although, it’s also possible, because she’s reached out to him recently about coming for tea, and he blows her off. He thinks she’s uninteresting. She gave him a boring childhood. He really hated whenever the Dursleys would go to fun places and he would be stuck back with Mrs. Figg watching him, so he doesn’t give her the chance to really come out to him sooner about her connection. And if he had, maybe she would have told him.

Micah: It just… let’s be clear, the only person that’s protecting Harry on Privet Drive is Harry. Not Figg. Not Mundungus Fletcher.

Andrew: “You.”

Micah: It’s Harry at the end of the day.

Eric: [laughs] [imitating Ron in Sorcerer’s Stone] “Not me, not Hermione, you!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, also, can we talk about why was Mundungus Fletcher posted there?

Eric: Ugh, we’ll have plenty of chapters to talk about why Mundungus Fletcher was there. [laughs]

Laura: Like, what the heck? Come on. Harry is like the golden egg. You don’t put Mundungus Fletcher in charge of protecting the golden egg. Geez. [laughs]

Eric: Well, yeah. I will say, Mundungus’s Disapparation, which causes this loud bang, startles Harry because he correctly predicts that the source of the noise was of magic origins, but this, unfortunately, only makes Harry feel worse. This exacerbates the problem because somebody magical or something magical happened right in his area, but they’re not revealing themselves to him, and I think that’s probably what fuels him to angrily go on his tirade this chapter.

Micah: It probably adds a level of paranoia, too, because he may think somebody’s watching him, and…

Eric: He’s right.

Micah: Well, he is right. But yeah, I mean, between Figg and Dung, it’s like the enemy’s coming with semi-automatics and you’re using a stick. That’s the equivalent here of Harry’s protection.

Andrew: Dumbledore does bring up later to Harry that he avoided him because he didn’t want Voldemort exploiting the connection that Dumbledore suspected, and Dumbledore is right, here; it’s established, even in this chapter, that there is a connection between Harry and Voldemort because – Harry doesn’t realize it at the time – but Harry is having these dreams…

Laura: Right.

Andrew: … of the long, dark corridor. For the reader, in hindsight, there is that world-building, that plot line building secretly in the background that they do have a connection.

Eric: It’s true.

Micah: Couldn’t you argue, though, this type of neglect, which starts in this chapter, also perpetuates Voldemort’s ability to penetrate Harry’s mind later on?

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And so it’s almost like Dumbledore, you could argue, has the right intentions here, but it comes back to bite him anyway.

Eric: Well, Harry… Dumbledore doesn’t want to be bothered by this connection, the excuse that Voldemort might exploit it. You know how Voldemort doesn’t exploit it? Is you being aware that it exists and not letting him exploit you. That’s how you do it. Surely Dumbledore is capable of that.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, if you have the suspicion, why not have Harry start his Occlumency lessons as soon as he gets back to Hogwarts?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: True.

Laura: I get that it’s a bit of a powder keg having him work with Snape, but perhaps if you had started it sooner, you might have made more progress than ultimately gets made.

Eric: So instead of doing the Umbridge Suck count this Book 5, we’re going to be doing the Dumbledore Sucks count.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Nooo!

Eric: And here’s the… no, no. Kidding, kidding, of course.

Micah: I’m not.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Ultimately, this comes down to Harry needing a connection to the wizarding world, and in fact, he’s listening to the Muggle news. We find him… the book opens on a flowerbed beneath the Dursleys’ window, and he’s listening to the news and trying to see if the Dark side has done anything, because the Muggles would surely notice something big. The reason it isn’t successful is because Voldemort, crucially, is in hiding, and coming off of our Goblet of Fire reread, we really realized that Voldemort prefers to operate under secrecy. These first couple of years – or crucially, the first nine or ten months – are so important that Voldemort remains quiet, and so that’s the reason Harry isn’t seeing stuff on the news. It’s because the mass killings don’t start until the bridge collapse next summer. So it’s really subtle now, and Harry is feeling very frustrated because nobody’s telling him anything.

Andrew: Frustration and isolation are the two words we might be saying most on today’s episode. It’s awful, the situation that Harry is in; I really do feel bad for him. And I think the thing that gets me most about this is that he successfully battled Voldemort. He won, basically, and he’s still the one being put on ice. That is so unfair. And it was very well-written in this chapter, I thought, displaying Harry’s frustration with everything, because we see him venting to himself, like, “I’m the one who fought Voldemort and carried Cedric’s body out of the graveyard, and I’m the one now being isolated from everybody and being left in the dark?” It is completely unfair. It’s a tough chapter to read.

Eric: And it’s not entitlement if you’re right. [laughs]

Andrew: No, no.

Eric: He has proven himself to be very competent and very deserving of the level of, I guess, honesty and bluntness that this sort of situation requires. You don’t have to tell Harry everything still, but if it’s going to come out anyway, don’t make him suffer for it. So we’re going to talk about another key part of this chapter, but first, a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: Okay, so something I really am excited to talk about regarding this chapter is the titular character of this chapter, Dudley. “Dudley Demented.” Dudley Dursley. And big question I have about him… this is the most insight, I think, the most experience, the most time we spend with Dudley for the first time in a long time, if ever, if not always. And here in this chapter, we see, I think, a little bit deeper version of him. We’re not quite at the level where he becomes almost friendly to Harry, and it’s hard to be friendly to Harry when he’s in this state that he’s in in this chapter. But interestingly, when Harry is picking this fight with him, Dudley’s first, second, and third response to that is to de-escalate and to not engage with Harry. Here’s a guy who beats kids up for a living with his group, all this fun time, and Harry is very much coming at him, and Dudley is not having it. So let’s talk about that. How has Dudley changed? Can we say that he’s a good person at this time? How far do we want to take this? But it’s a reformed Dudley.

Andrew: Well, not a good person in general, because he’s still bullying other students, or other kids around town.

Eric: I guess it’s a slightly more mature Dudley; I’ll amend my statement.

Andrew: Yeah. Is he primarily afraid of Harry using magic on him? Even if in his mind, Harry can’t use magic outside of Hogwarts?

Micah: That’s where I was leaning. That’s where my head went, was that Dudley is deep down still very much afraid of Harry.

Laura: And I think he’s afraid of him in very similar ways to Vernon, and I think because he’s away from his parents right now, he doesn’t really… and also, his mates are gone; they’ve gone home for the evening. He’s one on one with Harry. He doesn’t have anyone to back him up. And I think he realizes that, because of the magic, he could very much be outmatched, and if he thinks that Harry is as much of a lunatic as his parents say that he is, maybe Dudley is thinking, “I don’t know if Harry cares about breaking the law, and I’m here by myself with him,” so I think it’s a lot of self-preservation.

Eric: We talked at the start of this discussion about Harry’s trauma and where Harry is at, but think about Dudley’s trauma. Having just read Goblet of Fire, the Ton-Tongue Toffee scene still hurts, still feels like a fresh wound wherein Fred and George poisoned Dudley and nearly caused him to choke to death on his own tongue, and the only reason Dudley is not dead right now is because Arthur Weasley was able to slow and stop it. But not only that, even Hagrid has had a crack at Dudley magically and caused him to need surgery to remove a pig’s tail. Dudley has actually been on the receiving end of magic directly – not just inadvertently, but completely, entirely, meaningfully – so if Dudley is traumatized, if Dudley fears magic, that’s exactly right. Look at what magic’s done to him.

Andrew: To entertain this idea, Eric, that Dudley has maybe gone a little soft, I was also wondering if he feels bad for Harry because of the dreams that Harry has been experiencing recently.

Eric: I love this thought.

Andrew: The reason I say that is because Dudley says to Harry that he’s heard him screaming in his sleep about Cedric, so I’m wondering if he resisted pushing back because he’s like, “Dang, Harry is going through it right now. Poor guy.” I mean, when you’re hearing Harry say these things in his sleep, that’s a very raw look at what Harry is going through internally right now. I don’t know if a family member of Harry’s could hear that and not feel bad for him. He’s clearly going through something terrible and was traumatized.

Laura: I don’t really think Dudley feels bad for him, because he uses that to taunt him.

Eric: Only after Harry really pushes things, though.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: And I think it’s still a way of getting Harry off his back.

Laura: Yeah. Listen, I think Dudley reforms; I’m just not of the opinion that it has happened at this stage.

Eric: I mean, he is still lying to his parents about where he goes. He’s still beating up poor Mark Evans…

Laura: A 10-year-old.

Eric: … a kid with the most unfortunate name in the series.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But really, it’s interesting to see the struggle, and Dudley really does warn Harry a bunch of times. I mean, if Harry weren’t so overcome with this desire to taunt and play with Dudley, essentially, none of this would happen, and Dudley really would have allowed him to have said, “How long you’ve been Big D?” and this stuff about the pig in the wig. And I just don’t think that anything Dudley is doing is offensive, and I think it’s actually smart, given that he realizes he’s outmatched, to de-escalate, when bullies or younger Dudley would have done something that got him further in trouble. I don’t think he would have the same self-insight as he does in this chapter.

Micah: Well, Dudley reached his breaking point. Harry kept prodding and prodding and prodding, and Dudley just got to the point where most of us would, where we react, we say things. What I found fascinating about watching Harry in this chapter is that it was almost like he was stalking his prey. He watched Dudley go by, he waited for Dudley’s friends to leave, and then took it upon himself to go and get into it with Dudley.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: And again, going back to the first part of our conversation, this is not a side of Harry we have seen ever.

Eric: This is our hero? This is our hero Harry? Crestfallen, I tell you. I was crestfallen. Even if it is explained later, it’s sad to read. Very difficult for a midnight, very excited book read.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Fortunately, Book 6 is better. But Dudley lying to his parents is very interesting, because speaking about Vernon and Petunia, you see them wanting to believe the lie, and maybe this was always the case. But it’s really interesting that all the members of his gang would probably back him up; “Oh, yeah, he’s been coming over for tea.” But not only that, Vernon in this chapter brags that he doesn’t think Dudley even knows who the Prime Minister is of the UK.

Andrew: [laughs] I know.

Eric: There’s an anti-intellectualist pride that Vernon exudes that really makes me question just what it is that they want out of their child and also what they’re like in their… I don’t know, just way they see the world. I’m sorry, but everyone should know who the leader of their own country is, I think.

Andrew: Yeah, and I guess Dudley is a little young to be paying too close attention to the news, but Vernon is more broadly just proud that Dudley isn’t paying attention to what’s going on in the world, and that’s nothing to brag about either. It’s basically like he’s so proud of Dudley, so long as he’s the total opposite of Harry. [laughs]

Micah: Right, that’s it. Exactly right, yeah. Because Harry is interested in the news, as long as Dudley isn’t, it’s a good thing.

Andrew: He’s better than Harry.

Eric: Well, right, because Harry has actually annoyed Vernon by wanting to listen to the news. The flower bed wasn’t his first go-to; he attempted to listen in the living room, and Vernon was like, “What are you doing out?”

Laura: Yeah, I also don’t think of Vernon and Petunia as being the most informed people anyway. They remind me of the types that sit around their living room at night, watching the news and judging every single person being talked about on it from their moral high horse on Privet Drive, [laughs] so I think that they probably feel a sense of pride of being above it all, right? It doesn’t concern them, because they’re so normal that nothing bad would ever happen to them, right? If something bad happens to you, it’s because you did something to bring it on yourself. That’s their attitude.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: I wonder if Vernon gets so excited when Dudley is the opposite of Harry because it means they aren’t going to become friends or close family members.

Laura: Yeah, probably.

Andrew: The more he sees differences, the more excited he is. Because when they were way younger, this must have been a fear of Vernon’s and Petunia’s. Like, “Oh God, we hate the Potters. What if our son ends up liking the Potters?” Maybe this is a reason why Vernon and Petunia have always treated Harry like crap, to instill in their own son that you should not like that person.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, hatred and fear is taught, not ingrained, or not born. So I think that that’s exactly right. They would have given Dudley every luxury – like 37 presents one year and 36 the next – for his birthday, while giving Harry things like toothpicks, so that Dudley would not become friends with Harry. And the interesting thing about what Laura was saying about that is the underlying theme or theory seems to be “If you become friends with Harry, whose people are weirdos and all that stuff, then you’re going to fail. You’re going to have darkness visited upon you. You’re going to wind up like Harry’s own parents.” So they’re, in their own weird way, protecting Dudley from not getting involved with somebody, his cousin, who is a wizard. It’s pretty interesting. But my overall feeling is that picking on Dudley is not a good look, and it definitely hurts to see, but you hurt to see, most of all, Harry in pain. So there’s this joke about a pig that’s learned to walk on its hind legs. Are we laughing at Harry’s jokes, or are we just consumed by sadness and sympathy for him?

Andrew: Yeah, not laughing, but what struck me here is that it seems clear to me that Harry just wants to get the attention of somebody. Again, this word “isolated.” He’s not… nobody he actually cares about is talking to him. He’s taking out this frustration on Vernon, too; he said something to him that’s going to get him in trouble later. He’s attacking Dudley. He wants to get a rise out of one of these people because he wants somebody to pay attention to him, so in a… I don’t, of course, approve of violence or name-calling, but I also understand that Harry has some urges he needs to get out right now.

Eric: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So it’s also sad to see that when the Dementors do descend, Harry’s first several attempts at conjuring a Patronus fail because he’s so far gone that he can’t think of a happy thought. It’s not at his ready. And Harry is better at conjuring a Patronus than most wizards, but to do it, you need to be in a good place, and it takes Harry a few minutes to start thinking of Ron and Hermione, which that love is obviously very powerful to drive the Dementors away. But yeah, I mean, this physical altercation… I think it’s well adapted in the movie that we just watched and did commentary for, in that Harry, I think, takes a fist to the face, but it’s only after it really does seem like he’s done something with his wand. All the lights go out; essentially, the darkness… I think even Dudley is beginning to feel the effects of Dementors being nearby. And so it’s perfectly understandable, I think – again, going back to Dudley – for him to have punched Harry, because it seemed for I guess all audiences, really, that Harry, up until that moment, was going to curse him.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I can understand why Dudley reacted the way he did, for sure.

Micah: The natural inclination there for Dudley is to hit Harry because he thinks Harry is doing this, and so by hitting him, his hope is that it will stop.

Eric: Right. Yeah, and that seems like a reasonable deduction. And there’s a fun sort of joke about Dudley learning to box and taking up school boxing, and it’s something like “Harry didn’t think that Dudley learning to punch more accurately was a good thing,” and that’s very funny. But also, I think it is interesting, if you’re more physically inclined, something like the sport of wrestling is actually a good discipline, and kind of… I think it’s possible that this experience with other boys on the wrestling team might actually allow for Dudley a channel for some of his more based or more uncomfortable desires to be more physically abusive. I think it’s maybe a healthy outlet, even, boxing.

Micah: I would just ask the question, though, why does Dudley feel the need to be that physically aggressive? And that likely ties back to his upbringing by Vernon and Petunia.

Eric: Yeah, being pitted… I think we really had a good discussion that covered Dudley’s inner struggle to be superior, because he’s always been told he’s superior. So maybe he’s physically dominating because he was always told he’s better than Harry, so now he has to maybe feel the need to earn it somehow.

Andrew: Could be also what him and his dad watch on TV.

Eric: There’s that.

Andrew: His dad maybe raising him to be this very macho, tough guy. “Men are fighters,” that type of thing.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, remember the Smelting stick.

Andrew: Yeah. I like the point, too, Eric, about boxing. I think of axe-throwing people; going to axe-throwing areas, or whatever you call them.

Laura: It’s fun!

Andrew: Yeah, I was just going to say, Laura’s done it. [laughs]

Eric: I mean, axe-throwing is great.

Laura: Yeah, it’s fun!

Andrew: There is a place here where you can pay however much, and for an hour, I guess it is, you just go around the room destroying everything. Not with axes, just with bats. They have TVs they buy from Goodwill, whatever. Boom. But you just… it’s like a rage room. [laughs] I don’t know what it’s called exactly.

Eric: This is the first I’m hearing of this. This is amazing.

Laura: There are similar places where you can go to break plates and stuff; just throw them around the room. So yeah, I mean, it’s a thing. Hey, better that than taking out your frustrations on someone else.

Eric: No, I know it’s healthy.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Eric: But I feel a mental connection to my plates. I’ve had them for 20 years.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s a whole thing.

Micah: To your point about discipline, though, in boxing, perhaps it was some of that discipline that showed up in this conversation that he was having with Harry.

Eric: There you go!

Micah: And he learned it from being a amateur boxer.

Andrew: I like it.

Eric: Yeah, to summarize: Look, Dudley is still a bully, but not to Harry. Harry is the bully here. And it’s sad to see that he’s in such a negative place, but fortunately, he still saves Dudley’s life at the end of this, when it all comes down to it on the line. Speaking of lines, we’ll get to a certain line after this ad break.

[Ad break]


Lynx Line


Eric: And now it’s time for one of our other new segments for this Chapter by Chapter; we are bringing Lynx Line front and center. Each week on the Lynx Line we will hear from our patrons as they discuss their thoughts on what we’ve asked, and Andrew, what have we asked this week?

Andrew: What do we think of Harry’s “protection” on Privet Drive, with a rotating cast of wizards keeping watch on Harry and Mrs. Figg managing them? And what are some better ways in which Dumbledore could have set things up, so as not to attract the attention of the Ministry, but also better to meet Harry’s needs? And we’re also excited about this new Patreon benefit because it gives the chance for people who can’t join us during livestreams to sound off on each episode. As always, we got a lot of great responses on Patreon, and if you are currently a patron, please check out this post on Patreon to read everybody’s thoughts. It looks like we have 21 replies to this question. Lloyd said,

“I think that there needed to be more communication between Dumbledore/the Order and Harry. If you look at celebrities and politicians, they are very aware of the security and guards they have. I feel Harry would have been more comfortable with the idea if he had been aware. I believe that the Ministry would still not be aware of Dumbledore’s actions, even if Harry knew he was being guarded.”

Eric: So this next one comes from Zachary, who says, “I think this is a classic case of Dumbledore’s favorite game of eff around and find out.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That should be almost a game show title. [imitating a game show audience] “Eff around! Find out!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “Of all the members of the Order,” Zachary says, “Mundungus shouldn’t have been chosen. Like everyone else, I agree Tonks would have been ideal due to her abilities, or even McGonagall. Either of them would have been a great assist to Mrs. Figg.” Yeah. We don’t know who’s on the other shifts, because they don’t botch it the way Mundungus does…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … but presumably it’s some of Harry’s other friends or people he’s friendly with, or people who know him, and so any of them would have been fun for casual conversation and absolutely allowed Harry an outlet where even if he can’t figure out what’s going on all the time, he would have not felt so alone.

Micah: Darin says, “I think Dumbledore knew what he was doing with his protection. I mean, he’s Dumbledore!” Oh, Darin.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “I do think, however, he could have chosen people other than Mundungus to help keep watch over him. Kingsley and Mad-Eye for a start!”

Laura: Yeah, those would have been good ones. Ariane says,

“I did wonder if, when it says Mrs. Figg kept asking Harry to tea, if her goal was to give him some idea of what was happening, or at least that he was being watched for his own protection. As for Mundungus being said protection… good lord, Dumbledore, they told me you were intelligent…”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: So much Dumbledore hate happening this episode.

Andrew: I know, I know.

Eric: Eh, we’ll gloss over it. It might be the most deserved chapter for that, unfortunately.

Andrew: Well, Rachel has a counterpoint:

“I’m usually all for full transparency, however, I have to remind myself that Harry was 15. I don’t think he needed to be informed, though it would have been nice, and I think he’d have taken the news well if Dumbledore wrote a letter or explained it to him in person. I agree with others who have said Mundungus was not an appropriate choice, and it was so unfair to Mrs. Figg to put this much pressure on her.”

All right, this isn’t totally a counterpoint, but the first sentence kind of was.

“Unless one of her cats is an unregistered Animagus, what can she really do in a pinch?”

Well, like I said, Rachel, the bat phone. The Dumb phone. The phoenix phone.

Eric: That’s pretty much it. She would have to send an owl or one of her Kneazles via the Floo Network, if that works, to get a hold of Dumbledore in a pinch, because she can’t even cast a Patronus, which the Order use for messaging. Here’s a message from Susan:

“I think having Tonks around because of her abilities to change her appearance would be better protection than Dung.”

Have to agree.

“Also, Mrs. Figg was not enough at all. She wasn’t registered at the Ministry to be living on Privet Drive, and how could she contact Dumbledore quick enough? Dumby should have at least sent a letter with a blanket and vague explanation on things that reassured Harry that things would be fine soon.”

Agreed.

Andrew: “With a blanket.” [laughs]

Laura: Oh, like a blanket explanation, I think Susan means.

Andrew: Oh, I was picturing like, [imitating Dumbledore] “Hey, remember when I wrapped you in a blanket and brought you to Privet Drive?”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: In his childhood blanket that comes up in… wait, is that in the new Cursed Child, Micah?

Micah: The blanket? Yep, it’s there.

Eric: Okay, yeah. It’s hard to imagine what they would have cut from the parts. I asked you about the trolley lady; she’s still there.

Micah: Trolley lady is there.

Eric: Man.

Andrew: Love the trolley lady.

Micah: And the magic is just unbelievable. The Polyjuice scene, I still don’t know how they do it. I mean, I kind of can figure it out, but… anyway. And we also heard from Sara, who says,

“I feel like the guard was there to prevent Harry doing something rash or using magic, not the other way around of him needing protecting. Plus, Mundungus was not the best choice of guard. Clearly untrustworthy, even though he’s loyal to Dumbledore. Also think Harry would have been safer had he been informed that he needed to be extra careful, rather than being in the dark about everything.”

Andrew: The first sentence, though… I don’t know if you read that first part; she is reminding us that he is protected from Voldy due to his mother’s magic, so it’s not like he’s totally alone out in the wild to fend for himself. I thought that was kind of an important reminder. He is protected.

Micah: Well, he’s only protected when he’s at the Dursleys’.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Not when he’s outside.

Eric: There really does come a point… and Dumbledore must know the way that the Dursleys are, especially because he mentions to Harry later that when he was 11, he was so malnourished that there’s no ignoring the abuse that Harry is suffering. There comes a point where it becomes more of a danger to have Harry go back to Privet Drive than what he gains from being protected from Voldemort; that’s just how I feel about it. There has to be some math that ain’t mathing right now.

Micah: And if we’re to connect the threads a little bit between Order of the Phoenix and Prisoner of Azkaban, somewhat similar situations play themselves out here at Privet Drive, right? Where Harry runs away, and there’s some sort of, ultimately, involvement with the Ministry. Harry ends up seeing Fudge in the Leaky Cauldron, and then, of course, he ends up at the hearing a little bit later on. I was also thinking back, too, to the fact of where he sees Sirius for the first time…

Eric: Aww.

Micah: … is also where the Dementors show up in this book, so if we’re playing around with that ring theory…

Andrew: Well, thanks, patrons, for contributing questions, and look forward to more of these questions, and we look forward to reading your answers in the months ahead. We’ll carry this new segment through the rest of the Chapter by Chapter for the whole series.

Eric: Heck yeah.


Where’s Dumbledore?


Eric: And speaking of segments, we’ve got another one coming up: It’s called “Where’s Dumbledore?” [laughs] Because we haven’t pinned enough on Dumbledore in this chapter. I’m imagining, if we have an intro sound, it should be something like Andrew’s Dumbledore impression, and he’s like, “Dos margaritas, por favor,” or something.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because where is he?

Laura: That would be so funny.

Eric: Do you want to lead us in with it, Andrew?

Andrew: You said, “Dos margaritas, por favor”? Is that what…?

Eric: “Dos margaritas, por favor.” That’s all Spanish, right?

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Dos margaritas, por favor.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, no, I just couldn’t totally hear what you said. Well, I’m glad you mentioned a drink, because to me, where is Dumbledore during this chapter? He’s winding down a lovely summer vacation in Ibiza, and he’s spending yet another night at a bar called JJ. It’s a real bar, 4.7 stars on Google Maps…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … and Dumbledore is just thinking about all the paperwork he has to do before the new term starts, so he’s wrapping up his holiday. Give him a break.

Eric: I just had to look up Ibiza. How’d you come up with that?

Andrew: I don’t know. I just…

Laura: It’s a pretty popular vacation destination.

Micah: It’s a hot spot.

Eric: This is the first time I’m learning about it. That’s cool.

Andrew: Listen to the song “I Took a Pill in Ibiza.”

Eric: Oh.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Isn’t the mayor…? Anyway. For me, Dumbledore is just putting his own needs ahead of those of a victimized 15-year-old boy.

Andrew: Wow, way to bring the mood down.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I thought this was going to be a segment where we have fun.

Micah: Well, we have plenty of chapters to talk about where Dumbledore is.

Laura: I imagine that he enchanted some rich guy into letting him spend the summer living on his yacht in the Bahamas, and that he is spending his days tanning and downing Cuba Libres because he knows the next 12 months are going to be so annoying.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: [imitating Dumbledore] “Dos Cuba Libres, por favor.” Oh man. And I have one because, again, we really have not pinned enough things on Dumbledore in this chapter. My idea of “Where’s Dumbledore?” is that he’s somewhere oppressing Sirius, making Sirius feel unwanted and like a prisoner in his own home.

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: So hey, that’s our fun new segment! Yay.

Andrew: We won’t always attack Dumbledore in this segment. At least, I won’t.

Eric: No, no, no. But it is fun to… for a book where Dumbledore is intentionally ignoring Harry – and we love the Dumbledore/Harry interaction in Book 6 – but for Book 5, it seems like we’ll be able to ask that question and come up with genuinely interesting answers from time to time.


Make the Personal Connection


Eric: Now we are going to talk about a personal connection in a segment that we call Make the Personal Connection. And my question, really, to the panel is are there any bits of this chapter that resonate with something that occurred for us? And especially since 2019 when we last discussed this chapter.

Andrew: What are some life lessons that I’ve taken away or noticed maybe in the last five years? And we’ve been talking a lot today about Harry being left alone. I feel like the older you get, the more people end up disappointing you; whether on personal or professional levels, you just have more experiences where you’re just let down. And when you’re the Chosen One and people aren’t living up to your expectations, it feels like an even bigger letdown! He’s doing a lot for everybody, and they’re not meeting him where he is. So that’s his own issue to deal with; he’s on a different level that other people can’t keep up with. [laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: But on a similar note, with Harry being left for dead, there are times in life when you expect to hear from people and you just don’t, and it makes you question your relationships. Maybe it’s a birthday greeting. Maybe it’s just an everyday check in. Maybe it’s being ghosted.

Micah: Happy Birthday, Andrew.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: I just think there are times when people socially let you down, too, and it sucks.

Eric: Yeah, I can say that some of what you said, Andrew, definitely resonates too, and hopefully, again, just fostering good communication with people can hopefully… in general. Everybody goes through stuff; everybody has their periods where they need to isolate themselves and not get back to every message. Because there’s also the opposite, where it’s mentally deprivating to pay attention to everything. But at the end of the day, just be sure to really reach out to people, let them know how you feel, and I believe that’ll be reciprocated. My personal connection here has to do with Mrs. Figg coming out as a Squib to Harry, and definitely over the last couple years, I’ve had the pleasure of several friends telling me new things about themselves that I didn’t know before.

Andrew: Give us a gossip! What? What did you hear?

Eric: No, I mean, it’s in many different ways.

Andrew: I’m just playing.

Eric: But we’re in our mid 30s. Not just we found somebody we’re going to marry, which is always a good announcement, but…

Andrew: Wait, what?!

Laura: Yeah, I’m sorry, Eric.

Eric: Really found my passion… no, we all have friends who are getting married. We’re always going to weddings, aren’t we?

Laura: Uh-huh.

Eric: No one in particular.

Andrew: Oh, I thought you were announcing something. Never mind, okay.

Eric: No, or friends who are able to be their most authentic selves now. I mean, really, the last couple years has shown me that it’s a beautiful, organic process of growth. And so Mrs. Figg… Harry had one impression of her; now he learns this new thing in this chapter. And it’s like, I know they don’t get a chance to have a heart to heart, but I like to imagine that there’s a lot of communication that they could have now that that’s over. What was it like being part of the wizarding world, or wizarding world adjacent? You just learn so much about somebody, the more… like a little thing, you can peel back the onion. And I just love that about people who’ve trusted me with information like that.

Andrew: It is nice when people entrust you with stuff like that.

Eric: And then I’ve done that myself this year with you guys, and it’s been really lovely, so that’s what I thought of, really.

Laura: That’s beautiful.

Andrew: I like it.

Laura: I definitely related to Harry in his feelings of isolation. I feel like every single one of us has a great example of that in the last five or so years with Covid. I think there was a degree of isolation felt by most everyone, and it can be really hard when you’re having overwhelming feelings, and you feel like you don’t have an outlet or a social network, to be able to easily get those things out to, or to even gather with for catharsis, so I can definitely resonate with what Harry is feeling here. But what I would say to him is it does get better.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think why we love still doing Chapter by Chapter and MuggleCast over the years is that we get different lessons and meaning out of the text each time we read, and that’s why we wanted to kick off this segment with Order of the Phoenix, too, to see how these stories are reflective of our own lives since we last talked about Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Absolutely.


Fakest Character of the Week


Eric: And I’ve got to tell you, we now have something… a fun change to make to what used to be MVP of the Week. Now it’s going to be “Most ______” – fill in the blank, different every week – “Character of the Week,” and this week, there’s a lot of fake people in this chapter, but which and who is the most fake character? We are going to be ranking them now. Cue the music.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: Fakest character of the week to me? Vernon Dursley, specifically for his response to his neighbor at 7 Privet Drive. Seven, mind you; there’s another number seven reference…

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: … asking about the crack noise. “It wasn’t Mundungus! It wasn’t Dung! It was… it was the car! Don’t worry about it, neighbor.”

Eric: “Did you hear that car backfiring?”

Andrew: “Yeah, that was crazy! Hahaha!” And he said it so smoothly, too. He’s a little too good at being fake.

Eric: You know, he’s in sales, so…

Andrew: Ah, true.

Eric: I’m going to give my most fake character of the week to Aunt Petunia, who says, “‘As if were interested in their sordid affairs,’ sniffed Aunt Petunia, who had followed the case obsessively in every magazine she could lay her bony hands on.” We see you, Petunia. It’s okay to read the gossip columns; just don’t hide it, you fake character.

Micah: My fakest character of the week has to go to Dumbledore. This may be one of his worst chapters ever, and he isn’t even physically present.

Andrew: So it’s all up from here in terms of your criticism? Great! Looking forward to it.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I said “May be.”

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: And I’m going to have to plus one Petunia. I don’t know if there are four actual fake characters in this chapter that we can really dig into, but no, I agree with you, Eric; she sticks out.

Andrew: Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And we might use your feedback on a future Muggle Mail episode. And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 2 of Order of the Phoenix, “A Peck of Owls.”

Eric: Hee-hee.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And one thing that is not changing episode to episode is, of course, everybody’s favorite Harry Potter game show, Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s Quizzitch question: In the United States, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix the movie was the fifth highest-grossing film of 2007 domestically. Name at least two films that year which earned more money than Harry Potter 5.

Micah: Oooh.

Eric: Bonus points, I said, if you don’t look it up. So here were the top five grossing films domestic of 2007: It was Spider-Man 3, with $336 million domestically; Shrek 3, $322 million; Transformers 1; Pirates of the Caribbean 3; and Harry Potter 5 was five, as I said. So something interesting we are doing with Quizzitch is we’re asking people if they’ve looked up the answer when they submitted. It is and remains an open book quiz, but 26% of correct answers said they did not look up these answers, and so congrats to those people for knowing your 2007 movies. Some of our listeners weren’t born that year yet. Last week’s winners were Box Office Trivia with the Kneazle; Robbie, I went to all three midnight releases; It’s my 14th birthday! Didn’t leave a name. Just said it’s their 14th birthday. Army of the Phoenix; PatronusSeeker; Spy D-er man; Buff Daddy; Forrest the 11-year-old; I’m having my Harry Potter-themed wedding in a week; Vernon’s skyrocketing health insurance policy; Lloyd the Kiwi; The Death Eaters storing their uniforms on Poop Mountain; [laughs] Trevor Spider-Toad the Third; Fiend for Fanfiction about Harry Potter; and last but not least, Jim! So thanks to everybody for participating in the slightly unusual Quizzitch. I think that I’m going to get more geopolitical and less immediate next chapter with Quizzitch. What do you guys think?

Andrew: Sure, go for it.

Eric: Okay, we’re branching out! New book, new Quizzitch, new rules. Next week’s question: In honor of the drought that’s happening in the beginning of Book 5, what is the hottest temperature ever recorded in the United Kingdom?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Your guess, if it’s within three degrees Fahrenheit, will be accepted as correct; and you may give your answer in Fahrenheit or Celsius. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the MuggleCast website – whether you’re reading transcripts, checking out our Must Listens page, or anything else – click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.

Andrew: And this show is brought to you by Muggles like you; it’s the only reason we’ve been able to podcast for 19 years and counting. Here are the two best ways to help us out: Number one, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And stay tuned for a new bonus MuggleCast this week, in which we will discuss three Harry Potter TV show news items. For even more benefits, best way to help us out: Number two, pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, another new physical gift every year, a video message from one of the four of us personalized to you, our private Facebook and Discord groups where you can hang out with fellow Potter fans, and so much more. And this week’s bonus MuggleCast will also be available for a one-time purchase on our Patreon. Also, if you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show and leave a five star review in your favorite podcast app. And as Eric said, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and a lot more. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #673

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #673, Listeners Share ‘Goblet of Fire’ Theories, ‘Cursed Child’ Star Joel Meyers Speaks With Us!


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, we’re busting open the Muggle Mailbag to answer your lingering questions about Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. Also in today’s episode, Micah and I actually sat down with Joel Meyers, who is currently starring as Albus Severus Potter in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child on Broadway, so we’ll get to that interview in just a minute. But first, I just wanted to let everybody know what is coming up on MuggleCast in the next couple weeks, because I, for one, am very excited to kick off Order of the Phoenix Chapter by Chapter, but before we get to Chapter by Chapter for Order of the Phoenix, next week we’re going to be doing an Order of the Phoenix movie commentary track. So you’ll be able to watch the movie along with us; you’re going to need to bring your own copy of the movie, but your movie will be in sync with our commentary track, so stay tuned for that. We haven’t done Order of the Phoenix before, so it’ll be fun to finally do that commentary track. Then the following week, Chapter by Chapter for Order of the Phoenix will begin, and as we’ve mentioned numerous times now, and as was well-documented on last week’s episode, the four of us were together a couple weeks ago now, and we brainstormed new ideas for Chapter by Chapter, and we’ll be debuting those in the Order of the Phoenix series, and we came up with some ideas we’re really excited about. I think we’ll share them with patrons first, and then we’ll introduce them as we go along in Chapter by Chapter for everybody else. And speaking of Patreon, coming up at bonus MuggleCast later this week, we will offer our thoughts on the just released Quidditch Champions video game. Any of you play it yet besides me?

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Absolutely.

Andrew: Sweet! Otherwise, the way I teed that up would have been terrible.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Would have been really awkward.

Andrew: “Our thoughts,” meaning mine.

Micah: You’ll just get me all excited about playing it this weekend.

Andrew: You know what? I’m pleasantly surprised by the game. It’s exceeding my expectations.

Eric: Yeah, and did you guys have to pay for it? Because it was actually on my console when I signed in the other day.

Laura: Yeah, it’s free on PlayStation for 30 days if you have PS+, I think.

Micah: Oooh.

Andrew: That’s it, yeah, if you have PS+. So we’ll talk about our thoughts on the game; get into the nitty gritty in bonus MuggleCast. There is also pretty exciting news about a Hogwarts Legacy sequel, so we’ll talk about that. And it was just Back to Hogwarts Day a few days ago. Happy new term at Hogwarts, everybody. And Warner Bros. uses this anniversary, this special holiday – whatever you want to call it – to announce several news items each year, and this year was no different, so we’ll talk about the announcements that they shared. So lots coming up in this week’s episode of bonus MuggleCast. Pledge now at Patreon.com/MuggleCast to receive access to dozens of bonus MuggleCast installments, including the new one that we’re going to be recording, or if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, sign up for MuggleCast Gold, and both of these subscriptions get you ad-free MuggleCast as well. Micah, you’ve had a pretty busy week. You were just over in Scotland.

Micah: I was, yeah, I had a great trip overseas, and I can probably talk a little bit about it another time; go into a little bit more detail about all the Harry Potter things that I got up to. But I did just want to give a special thank you to the Department of Magic for their hospitality. They are a bar in Edinburgh that do Harry Potter-themed potion cocktails, and if anyone is interested in visiting while in Edinburgh, our listeners can use code “MuggleCast24” when checking out for 10% off anything they offer. I know this is a destination that we heard from a couple of listeners, and I think that’s actually how I initially found out about it. It is very cool. I got the Dragon’s Inferno potion that I think I brewed successfully, because the drink was very good, and then I had a shot of Raven’s Eye. And we put some of this content up on the MuggleCast Instagram, so our listeners can check it out. And they were very nice; they also gave me a wand, which was very cool.

Andrew: Oh! Like, to keep?

Micah: To keep, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, okay. Cool. I thought maybe just to stir your drink or something.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: They went above and beyond, so thanks to them.

Andrew: Very cool. Yeah, all right. Well, you just mentioned our Instagram, and I also wanted to mention that we’re actually very close to 10,000 followers on our Instagram, and once we hit that threshold, it’ll actually open up new opportunities for us on that social media app. So if you don’t follow us on our Instagram already – Instagram.com/MuggleCast, or just search for MuggleCast on Instagram – please give us a follow. We share show clips, what we’re up to when we’re doing fandom things around the world, as evidenced by Micah heading over to Scotland and doing some coverage there for us. And also – Micah, maybe you can help me with this a little bit – thanks to Slug Club member Miranda for covering Back to Hogwarts in New York City. You weren’t able to attend because you were overseas, so you asked Miranda to go, right?

Micah: Yeah, asked Miranda to go. They did a special Back to Hogwarts celebration at Grand Central Terminal here in New York. So it’s always been something I know that’s been done at King’s Cross in London, but they finally decided to bring it stateside, and they did it in New York. I think there were a couple of other cities that they synced up with as well. But Miranda went and covered it for us. I saw Kierra Lewis did the countdown, along with Bonnie Wright…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … and that was also posted, as you mentioned, on our social feeds, so it looked like it was a lot of fun.

Andrew: Yeah, it did. And good for Kierra for getting that event; that is very cool. So yeah, thank you again, Miranda, and check out MuggleCast on Instagram to see our coverage of that event. Well, speaking of New York… everything’s just tying together really nicely this week. [laughs]

Micah: Oh, it’s like I planned it that way.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, I rearranged a couple of these items.

Micah: No, I know you did, I know you did.

Andrew: [laughs] Speaking of New York, Joel Meyers stars as Albus Severus Potter in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child on Broadway. Here is our interview now with him.


Interview with Joel Meyers


Andrew: Hi, Joel. Welcome to MuggleCast.

Joel Meyers: Thanks for having me.

Andrew: You’re about a year and a half into playing Albus Severus, right?

Joel: Yeah, I’m a little… that and a bit, yeah. Getting close to two.

Andrew: Awesome. Were you a Harry Potter fan prior to auditioning for Cursed Child?

Joel: Absolutely I was. I mean, I grew up right in the pipeline of all the movies coming out and the tail end of the books coming out, so I definitely lived it as a kid and a lifelong fan. And it was the easiest acting homework I ever did to reread the series when I got cast.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, one of the things we like to do on MuggleCast is get guests’ fandom ID, so would love to know, then, your favorite book, your favorite movie, and your favorite character.

Joel: Okay. I think my favorite book – and this is mostly due to nostalgia because it’s the one that I actually remember coming out the most – was Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: Okay.

Joel: And I don’t know, it’s always my… even when I reread it, I was keeping an open mind and I was like, “Maybe this will change,” but I enjoy it start to finish. My favorite movie… I really like Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Joel: I know Prisoner of Azkaban is like… it’s the Empire Strikes Back.

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: It’s the… you’re supposed to say that one. And I do love Prisoner of Azkaban, but I do also… just something about the whole style of Order of the Phoenix always gets me.

Andrew: Yeah. You know what? It is okay to not say Prisoner of Azkaban, I think.

[Joel laughs]

Andrew: It’s so different, especially compared to the first two. I think that’s why a lot of people call that movie their favorite.

Joel: Sure.

Andrew: It’s not my favorite movie. You’re in a safe space here to admit that. [laughs]

Joel: Well, okay, that’s good. Because I’m a big Star Wars fan, too, and when I say Revenge of the Sith is my favorite, I get laughed out of the fandom.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Joel: You’ve got to be careful. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Joel: Favorite character, Hermione, always and forever. Can’t beat Hermione.

Andrew: Very cool. Yeah, okay. And then, what is your Hogwarts House?

Joel: You can’t really see it, but I’m wearing my Ravenclaw shirt from Cursed Child.

Micah: Nice.

Joel: I’m a proud Ravenclaw.

Micah: Likewise.

Joel: I lean Gryffindor sometimes on the quiz, but most of the time I’m a Ravenclaw.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: Actually, going back to your favorite book, I was going to ask, is it Deathly Hallows because Albus Severus makes an appearance at the very end?

Joel: Well, that’s convenient, isn’t it?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Joel: And I do… that has come to be important to me in the time since I joined the show. [laughs] It’s nice to get to do the last scene of Deathly Hallows at the start every night.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s amazing.

Micah: So what was it like to get a starring role in one of the biggest fandoms of our lifetimes? Do you still remember getting that call?

Joel: Totally. I mean, it was a long audition process. These shows, they take their time, and I think I went in for six rounds of auditions for it, and then I… the story goes is we had our final callbacks on a Monday, and I actually flew home to Seattle after that because I’d been meaning to go back, go back, go back. And it was about this time two years ago that this was all going down, and I flew home; a day went by. You always have this fantasy of, you get off the plane and there’ll be a call waiting for and you’ll go, “Yes, I accept.”

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: That was not the case. I got off the plane and there was nothing, and I was like, “Oh, okay.” Another day went by; I was like, “Ugh.” There’s a grieving process to these things every time. And then I happened to wake up early West Coast time on Thursday because I had a dentist appointment at 8:00 a.m., and I am sort of half asleep, walking out, and there’s a missed call on my phone, and I’m looking at it and it’s a number I don’t know, and we all get so many spam calls that I’m like, “It’s just a spam number.”

Andrew: Right.

Joel: And then it has… you know the iPhones now sometimes have the “Maybe: So-and-so”? And it was “Maybe: The casting director.”

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: I was like, “Oh, maybe I should call him back.” So I called him back, and he’s like, “Yeah, we want you to play Albus Potter, congrats.” And my mom was going for a run or something, and I ran outside; I was like, “Stop, Mom, wait! I’m going to Broadway.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Joel: And then I went to the dentist.

Andrew: I was going to ask if you still went to the dentist. [laughs]

Joel: Of course, and let me tell you: It is the best place to be when you’ve just received life-changing information, because there’s nothing you can do but sit there and process it. And my hygienist that day was not chatty at all.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Joel: She was there to get the job done, and so there was no… I don’t think I even told her. I mean, I couldn’t really… everyone’s probably like, [mumbles]. But yeah, it was one of the more surreal experiences of my life to be sitting in a dentist chair, staring up the light, being like, “Did that just…? Is this real? Is this the laughing gas? What’s going on here?”

Micah: I love the through line because Hermione’s parents are dentists.

Joel: Correct.

Micah: She’s your favorite character.

Joel: Absolutely.

Micah: There’s something there.

Andrew: [laughs] It was meant to be.

Joel: And no, I do not want to be a dentist. [laughs]

Andrew: Okay.

Joel: Dentistry is not my…

Andrew: I kind of thought this story was going to go like, you got to the dentist, you were in the chair, they were working on you, the phone call comes in, you’re like, “Stop! I must take this call!”

[Andrew and Joel laugh]

Joel: That’s probably the only version that could have been even better, but no.

Andrew: Yeah, still a great story. So Micah and I have both seen Cursed Child a couple times at this point. The show has tons of incredible effects and performances, and you obviously play a key role. What is it like performing at that level every day?

Joel: It’s crazy. I mean, to put it bluntly, it’s… on the one hand, it’s such a machine of a show. It all has to… it starts and it does not stop, especially the one-part version now that’s on Broadway, everywhere except London, basically. I mean, it moves. [snaps fingers] The train leaves the station and it does not stop until we get to the very end.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Joel: And so there’s so many moving parts. And obviously, you’re acting and you’re in it, but you’re also like, “Well, if I stand over here, I’m going to get incinerated by a jet of flame or a Dementor is going to fall on me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: And so it’s a lot of just coming in and learning how to fit yourself into that machine, but then also bring it to life every night, and that’s the constant balance of it. It’s such a challenge, and such a wonderful challenge, to get to be a part of. And plus, it’s great to have it be Harry Potter. Most people who are in the audience have at least some sense of who that is and what this is, and sometimes a lot more of a sense of what that is. And people have been with this world since they were kids, like we all have, and it’s so fun to get to share that with people every night, and just know that that means so much, that you are helping build this world for them to come back to every night in the theater. It’s an experience that kind of defies description in a way, and yeah, it’s such a great joy to be a part of.

Andrew: I saw on your Instagram that you keep track of the number of performances you’re in, or you’ve done. How many are you up to now?

Joel: [laughs] I think last night was 655, 654, or something like that.

Andrew: Wow.

Joel: Yeah, I’m set to… I’ve got about a hundred left, so I should get to about the 750 mark by the time I take my final bow as Albus.

Andrew: Wow. That’s just amazing. And it’s been the one-part show the whole way?

Joel: Yes. Yeah, it’s been the one-part show since the pandemic, and so I joined… each cast has a year, so we’re the year five cast now, and so I joined in the year four cast. And it was the year three cast that first did the one-part coming back from Covid.

Andrew: Okay. Yeah, and you started in November 2022, and you’re going to be running through November 2024.

Joel: Yep.

Micah: And mentioning other cast: When you took over the role, did you get any advice from other cast members? Maybe some folks who played Albus Severus previously?

Joel: Yeah, I met James, who played Albus right before me briefly, and they were like, “Bring snacks. Drink water.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Stay hydrated.”

Joel: Which I think is the best… like, that’s what I would say.

Micah: So what is your favorite snack?

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: Cliff bars are great. I always have sliced apples at intermission; that’s kind of my thing. That’s great for your voice, it’s great hydration… just a good pick me up, 10 out of 10. I briefly met… [laughs] On the subway, of all places, I briefly met Sam Clemmett, who was the original Albus in both London and Broadway.

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Joel: And it was just… I was walking into the subway, and he was walking and I started to double take and was like, “Sam?” He was sort of like, “Who are you?”

[Andrew and Micah laughs]

Joel: And I was like, “Oh, I’m Albus,” and he was like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, I’ve seen your face.”

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: It was a two-second conversation, but he was like, “Are you enjoying it?” I was like, “Yeah!” And he’s like… and I was like, “It’s a lot. You set us up for a lot.” And he’s like, “Yeah, the guy who took over from me in London told me, he was like, ‘Yeah, why didn’t you say no to more of this stuff?'”

[Everyone laughs]

Joel: The Albus track is… it’s a lot of the… especially when they went from the two-part to the one-part, a lot of the answers and condensing the show was, “Oh, Albus will run across the stage and behind the stage and up the stair. It’ll be fine. We’ll cut time that way.”

Andrew: Interesting, okay. [laughs]

Joel: So it’s a workout start to finish, but yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: So do you have a favorite scene to perform?

Joel: It changes night by… I mean, my honest answer is it’s whichever scene the audience is into.

Andrew: Okay.

Joel: Because it’s funny, you would think that in a… I mean, the Lyric Theater on Broadway is 1,600 seats. You would think that that would average out the audience reaction. But it’s very different every night, and that’s… again, both the challenge of it, but also the joy of it is there are some scenes that they’re super into one night, and then they’re not the next night, but there are other scenes they are. And so it’s always a constant, “Oh, interesting. How does their energy feed us or inform how we do it?” And I think the scenes that I enjoy doing the most are when you can tell that the audience is right with you. I think some of the action, big adventure scenes are fun just because there’s all the special effects, and they look about as real from the stage as they do from the house, and that’s really cool too. I can’t say too… I don’t want to spoil too much, but…

Andrew: Yeah, fair enough. No, that does make sense, because sometimes I’ll go see a movie in theaters twice, and the audiences laugh at different points, and it’s like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” Like, “Why didn’t that audience laugh at the scene that the other audience did?” So I get that.

Joel: Yeah. I mean, it’s so frustrating when there’s a joke line that you say and it falls flat, and you’re like, “What did we do wrong?”

Andrew: [laughs] And you’re ready for them to laugh and nothing comes.

Joel: And then there’s times when they’re laughing at things and you’re like, “That wasn’t even funny.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Joel: But apparently it was, okay. Great, let’s go. It’s such… that’s live theater. [laughs]

Micah: You mentioned avoiding fire and falling Dementors. Is there a scene that you’d say is most challenging that every night you go in and you’re like, “This one”?

Joel: Yeah, I mean, I think at this point I see the show in sections. There’s the opening section, which we call the montage, which is years one through up to the beginning of year four for Albus, and we kind of get the back… because most of the play happens in the fourth year for Albus and Scorpius, and we’ve got to get there. We start before year one, and so that sequence is quick. It’s fast. It has to move. And that’s also the one where it’s like, “Albus is running. Albus is running. Albus is running.”

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: And so when I get through that, I’m kind of like, [exhales] “Okay, now we’re in a play and we’re doing it.” And then, yeah, there’s a sequence in Act Two that is also quite physical, and I can’t say what it is for those who haven’t seen the show, but it is… you get through these milestones every night, and that’s how you do it, but it’s a lot of fun too.

Andrew: Yeah. So talking about the story, what are some of your big takeaways from the story? What are the messages you think viewers get out of it?

Joel: Yeah. I mean, there’s kind of two side by side stories in Cursed Child, right? There’s the Albus/Harry. I don’t think it’s much of a spoiler to say that Albus and Harry don’t always see eye to eye about everything. Albus very much is in his dad’s shadow; it’s hard to have your dad be the savior of the wizarding world, and all that that entails, when you are not particularly great at magic yourself. And then there’s, of course, the Albus/Scorpius, the unlikely friendship of the Malfoy and the Potter on the train, two Slytherins. And I think that both of those… when I came into the show, it’s a lot of, “Oh, it’s a show about family, of course. It’s a show about friendship.” I think to me the connection there is it’s also a show about how given family meets found family, which I think is very true of the books too, right? I mean, because Harry in the books, that’s sort of… Harry has to find… all he has is a found family, and it’s a lot of the absence of the given family for him. And I think that Cursed Child continues that theme really well in that it sort of gives Albus the conundrum of he does have Harry Potter, the given family and all the baggage that comes with, and he can find his own place in this wide magical world through Scorpius, through someone who no one expected him to be friends with, his dad is actively discouraging for a long time him to be friends with, but he sticks to his guns and says, “No, this is my person, and we can all come together if we sort out our various differences here.”

Andrew: Yes. Even a Potter and a Malfoy can become friends after all. [laughs]

Joel: Exactly, yeah. I mean, we know… I wanted to say, but the true redemption arc of Cursed Child is Draco, but we don’t have to get into that. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, fair enough.

Micah: So this builds off the previous question a little bit: One of the things we talk about a lot on this podcast is how the original Harry Potter books, their messages evolve for us as we get older, whether it’s about friendship or politics or power dynamics. We’re going through our global reread of the books for the second time right now, and we’re looking at it through the lens of being adults now as opposed to being kids. So now that you’re about two years into the show, have the messages or meanings changed for you at all?

Joel: I mean, I stand by that I think the main message to me is still that given versus found family for Albus. So as I’ve come to find over the course of doing 600 odd shows, I think for Albus, it’s really about trying to do the right thing. That’s what Albus and Harry have in common; they’re always trying to do the right thing, but not always in the right way. And I think that that’s a message that is one that I was aware of at the beginning, but I think also, every time we do the show, you do it so many times, you find those messages coming up in new places in the show that you didn’t even think of in the rehearsal room at times. And I think that that’s a great experience of doing it and being like, “Oh yeah, that is where that comes in, in this scene as well. Oh, and it’s also right here, and that’s also right here.” And I think that it’s just such a gift to be able to explore something to that depth every night over the course of two years and then have the interactions with the audience, because we go out to the stage door every night. We meet the kids in their Hogwarts robes, and it’s great, and they tell us their Houses and it’s so wonderful, but it’s also so great to see it through their eyes and see what they take away from it. And for Cursed Child especially, we get a lot of first time theater goers, a lot of first time Broadway goers, and it’s so great to see kids have their minds opened in that way, which is something that I remember being a kid feeling that, and now it’s so special to be on the other side of that as a semi-adult, and look and be like, “Oh yeah, I can see it happening from the other side.” And I think that is kind of the real gift and thing that I’ve come to learn and appreciate, as I’ve done the show for so long.

Andrew: That’s awesome, because Harry Potter has often been credited as inspiring a lot of kids to read who never would have been interested otherwise, and the point you’re bringing up is that it might now be inspiring a lot of kids to fall in love with theater, because they’re going in for their first time.

Joel: Totally, totally.

Andrew: That’s really cool.

Joel: Yeah, and I mean, the other things, too, is you see at the stage door… now we’re at the point where the first generation of Harry Potter fans are a generation, half-generation older than I am, and you see parents bringing their kids to the stage door where the parents read the books and now they… the parents always want to tell us, “Oh, my son/daughter/niece/nephew,” whatever it is, “now they’re reading. They’re on Prisoner of Azkaban. They’re reading the books now.” And so it’s really special to see that. We get to see this franchise being passed down generationally now, which is a new thing, having grown up, again, in that first wave of fans, to be like, “Oh, wow, this is something that’s actually continuing and is something that parents want to give to their children, their love of this world.”

Andrew: Yeah, to let their kids see that same joy that they were experiencing themselves when they first read the books.

Joel: Absolutely, and the theater is a… now that we don’t actively have as many movies coming out, the show is a great vehicle through which they can share that in real time together, which is so cool to see, yeah.

Andrew: So we had mentioned that your role as Albus is going to be wrapping up in November. Do you have any plans after? I assume running less is going to be one of those plans.

[Everyone laughs]

Joel: Yeah, well, running outdoors, perhaps. Eating dinner before 11:00 p.m. probably; my girlfriend has informed me that that’s what we’ll be doing.

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: So she’s excited for that, as am I. And beyond that, we’ll see. I mean, I’ve still got 100 shows or so to go, so I’m very much like, “Let’s get through it.” It’s a physical show; don’t want to get hurt or anything. And then it’s kind of out into the wide world of what is next. This may interest some of your fans, may not. I work on an immersive show, too, that’s over the phone. It’s kind of theater by phone.

Micah: Oh, cool.

Joel: It’s with a company called Candle House Collective. The show is called Lennox Mutual. You call in and you get a representative, and it’s kind of a one-on-one, 20 minutes at a time, but you can call back. And so that’s the next big thing on my docket is that show and continuing to grow that. It’s sort of in the vein of magical realism and whatnot, D&D. So D&D folks who are into Harry Potter might enjoy that.

Micah: We probably have a few of those. [laughs]

Andrew: I’m sure we have… yeah.

Joel: I would imagine you did. It seems to be a common type. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, Joel, thanks again for coming on today. Where can our listeners find you online? And anything else you want to plug?

Joel: I mean, come see Cursed Child. If you want to see me in it, you’ve got till November 10 on Broadway, or they’re just launching a national tour. It’s going to go to Chicago, LA, and… oh God, I think it’s DC. I really hope it’s not something else because I’ll have the social manager in my inbox. But you can check out the tour if it’s coming near. There’s the London production, the Hamburg production in Germany, which is in German, and then the Japanese production in Tokyo. It’s all over the place you can find us.

Andrew: Sorry, I just looked it up. You are right; it was DC. Chicago, LA, DC.

Joel: Thank God.

[Everyone laughs]

Joel: I did my job.

Micah: And I’ll have to check out New York before you wrap up in November.

Joel: Yeah, come on by. We have a lot of fun. Yeah, if you want to find me online, my Instagram is at @JoelPMeyers – two E’s, one S – and same, my website is also JoelPMeyers.com. I need to update it…

[Andrew laughs]

Joel: … but that’s where you can find anything I am doing in the future.

Andrew: Awesome. Well, Joel, it’s been great talking to you today. Thank you so much for your time.

Joel: Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, that was a really good conversation, wasn’t it, Micah? We had a good time talking with him.

Micah: Yeah, he’s just a great person to talk with. Seems like he’s a very big Harry Potter fan, too, which I would assume goes a long way when you’re in this type of role.


Seven-Word Summary Revisit


Andrew: All right, so before we jump into the Muggle Mailbag, we wanted to revisit every one of our seven-word summaries from Goblet of Fire, and then we’re going to vote on one to redo. So here is our summary [laughs] of Goblet of Fire through our Chapter by Chapter seven-word summaries. Chapter 1: “Voldemort decides to plan an amazing murder.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Chapter 2: “Dumbledore sometimes is on the beach relaxing.”

Micah: Chapter 3: “Molly tries to save Harry’s summer funnily.”

Laura: Chapter 4: “Arthur attempts to help with Dudley’s tongue.”

Andrew: Chapter 5: “Harry visits the Burrow and eats satisfactorily.” [laughs]

Eric: Chapter 6: “The Quidditch world is excited regarding Voldemort.”

Micah: Chapter 7: “Arriving at the campsite makes much happen.”

Laura: Chapter 8: “Athletes compete vigorously against their formidable opponents.”

Eric: Ooh.

Andrew: Chapter 9: “Winky struggles to explain herself to Crouch.”

Eric: Chapter 10: “Arthur laments over a problematic news cycle.”

Micah: Chapter 11: “Traveling by train proves informative for Harry.”

Laura: Chapter 12: “Thunderstorms announce the arrival of Mad-Eye Fakey.”

Andrew: Chapter 13: “Karma comes full ferret for Draco Malfoy.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Chapter 14: “Neville reacts in a panic…” What happened there?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Ran out of time, I guess.

Laura: We ran out of steam.

Micah: Chapter 15: “Foreigners arrive at the clean, squeaky school.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Chapter 16: “Poliakoff wants eternal wine because Krum’s better.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Chapter 17: “Cedric fails to be the only champion.”

Eric: Chapter 18: “Rita hijacks Harry’s innocence by broom closet.”

Micah: Chapter 19: “Karkaroff sneaks around Hogwarts suspiciously one night.”

Laura: Chapter 20: “Dragons are afoot inside Hogwarts grounds AHHHHH!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Good acting.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Chapter 21: “Shrieks and panic erupt from Gryffindor base.”

Eric: Chapter 22: “Cho regrets not saying yes to greatness.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Chapter 23: “Hormones fly amok at Hogwarts’s big holiday.”

Laura: Chapter 24: “Rita ignites rumors in the Three Broomsticks.”

Andrew: Chapter 25: “Mermaids sing to a bathroom of children.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Chapter 26: “The merpeople mock Harry incessantly under water.”

Micah: Chapter 27: “Crouch is not innocent of any crimes.”

Laura: Chapter 28: “Harry finds Crouch disturbed inside the forest.”

Andrew: Chapter 29: “Sirius grounds Harry because he is naughty.”

Eric: Chapter 30: “Dumbledore craftily leaves exposed memories inside basin.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Chapter 31: “Riddles guard the misleading way to victory.”

Laura: Chapter 32: “Cedric falls to his untimely, sad demise.”

Andrew: Chapter 33: “Loyalists arrive and worship Voldemort’s triumphant revival.”

Eric: Chapter 34: “Echoes confront the dark past and spells.”

Micah: Chapter 35: “Secrets are revealed by truth-telling serum.”

Laura: Chapter 36: “Fudge makes disastrous decisions about Lord Voldemort.”

Andrew: And Chapter 37: “Relationships blossom when the trio parts ways.” There were some fun ones in that list. We did a good job, I think.

Laura: I think so.

Andrew: However, as we do with every book, we are going to redo one of these seven-word summaries, and we voted in advance, and the one that very handily won was Chapter 14: “Neville reacts in a panic…”

Eric: Dot dot dot…

Andrew: Pretty clear why we want to redo that one.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: You know what it is? We’re completionists; that’s what it comes down to.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: What happened in that chapter?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: That was the Unforgivable Curses, right? Where Fakey traumatized Neville by performing the Cruciatus Curse in front of the class.

Micah: That’s right.

Andrew: Yes. All right, so we want to do it? We want to give it a shot?

Laura: Oh, God. Are we going in host order?

Andrew: Sure.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Moody…

Eric: … does…

Micah: … unforgivable…

Laura: … things…

Andrew: … against…

Eric: … spiders… it’s all down to you, Micah.

Micah: … handily.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: There we go. I think that’s better than what we had originally.

Andrew: All right. Well, that one is resolved now. That was easy. And now one more time for Goblet of Fire, but this time we’re going to do a seven-word summary for the entire book. And Laura, you’re going to kick things off this time. Are you ready?

Laura: I see that. No, but let’s go.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: LFG.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: Resurrection…

Eric: … for…

Micah: … Voldemort…

Andrew: … awakens…

Eric: … old…

Micah: … echoes…

Laura: Not going to say, handily, right?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: We could.

Eric: Let’s just do that.

Laura: No, no. Old echoes past, P-A-S-T. Like, of the past.

Andrew: Okay. That’s cryptic, that’s dark. I like it.


Muggle Mail


Andrew: And to continue wrapping up Goblet of Fire, let’s get to some emails from listeners who have been sounding off about our discussions. It’s always great to hear from listeners, so thank you so much everybody who writes in. We’ll start with this email concerning Romilda. This one didn’t have a name, Micah, I guess?

Micah: No, it’s from Romilda.

Andrew: Oh, whoa, from Romilda Vane? That’s kind of cool. On that gaping plot hole:

“Hey y’all! Catching up on the Goblet of Fire Chapter by Chapter, and two things I wanted to add to your discussion. You talked about how the Goblet was so easy to bypass with adding a fourth school, but the critical point is that Fakey had to Confund the Goblet to forget there were only three schools, which speaks to his insane magical prowess!”

Yes, good call. Thank you for that reminder.

Eric: Yeah, I wonder where he learned it all.

Andrew: And point two here:

“In the Muggle Mail episode, Goblet of Fire does not have a gaping plot hole! The whole point was for Harry to be killed! If Voldy’s plan was successful, Harry would be killed after Voldemort regenerates and they’d send his body back into the maze, trying to pass it off as Harry dying in the tournament. Voldemort also did not want anyone else to know he was back, as Dumbledore and Sirius call out at the end of the book. Their elaborate plan, if it worked, would have allowed for dead Harry, secretly alive Voldemort, and a full year of spying on Dumbledore as he didn’t know if Snape was still on his side or not. Love the show!”

Thank you, Romilda Vane.

Laura: Quite true.

Andrew: I love your work in the Harry Potter books.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: The only thing I thought about when I was reading this email, though, is that if Voldemort did in fact come back and Harry was killed, wouldn’t there be the whole Dark Mark tattoo burning on Snape’s arm, and Snape likely would have alerted Dumbledore to this fact?

Laura: Yeah, but I don’t think Fudge would have listened anyway. I mean, we see how he reacts when Harry actually does survive and is an eyewitness to the fact that Voldemort is back. If there was no eyewitness to him coming back, I think he doubles down even harder.

Eric: So our next message comes from Laila regarding Death Eater forearms. At first I misread and thought “forums,” and I was like, “Where do I sign up?”

“Hey, folks. This has been a question I’ve had for a while and wanted to hear what y’all think. We read about so many individuals being brought before the Council of Magical Law at some point after Lord Voldemort’s downfall. Why did no one ever check the forearms of individuals during the height of putting folks on trial as supposed Death Eaters? Was this because the Dark Mark wasn’t showing, or because the Ministry didn’t know it was a thing? Surely, Dumbledore knew, as he exonerated Snape when Karkaroff listed his name during his trial. I always imagined the Mark to always be there, sort of like a white ink tattoo. It, amongst many other magical actions – like, you know, Veritaserum – would have solved a lot of issues during this time period.”

Preach, Laila! Based on the final chapters of the book when Snape flat out shows Cornelius Fudge his Dark Mark, it seems like news to Fudge, so somehow I guess the Ministry did not widely know about the Dark Mark. And it is just possible that after… that it’s tied somehow to Voldemort’s life force, which seems like something that he would do. Not as an anchor, the way Horcruxes are, but once he was gone, it’s quite possible that that forearm mark did actually evaporate, since Karkaroff, earlier this year, feared it getting darker and stronger. What do you guys think?

Andrew: Yeah, I think somewhere in the books it does say it faded. I don’t know which book it was or when exactly we learned it, but I think it did fade when Voldemort fell. I’m also wondering if it could have been easily concealed, and I don’t mean by just putting a long sleeve shirt over it.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Makeup?

Andrew: Yeah, makeup. Maybe there was a spell to fully hide it.

Eric: That’s how you detect a Death Eater. Who’s wearing long sleeves in July?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, Snape actually calls this out towards the end of Goblet when he goes to show Fudge his Dark Mark, and he says it’s not burning as brightly as it was an hour ago, so that implies that when not in use, it’s going to fade, potentially to the point of not being visible to the naked eye. With that said, it seems like the Ministry could just “Revelio” on people’s forearms if they’re suspected of being Death Eaters. There should be a way to see it.

Micah: And I seem to recall that a lot of the presumed Death Eaters said that they were put up to it against their own free will, and maybe in some cases even argued that they were under the Imperius Curse, so you can never 100% prove that just because they had the Dark Mark on their arm that they were a willing Death Eater, let’s say.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Yeah, that’s actually a good point. Man, if only I could blame several of my tattoos on being Imperiused, am I right?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Kidding. That does remind me, though; I do need to get my MuggleCast tattoo…

Micah: Touched up?

Eric: Retouched up, yeah. It’s faded a bit over the years. Unlike this show!

Andrew: What year did you get that MuggleCast tattoo?

Eric: 2010.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: And for the most part, it’s still visible, but the yellow’s gone a bit soft.

Micah: All right, our next email comes from Declan, talking about Barty Crouch, Jr. making his dad into a bone. And he says,

“Hey MuggleCasters, I just wanted to give my thoughts on the significance of Barty Crouch, Jr. transfiguring his father’s body into a bone. I believe Voldemort confided in Crouch Junior about the nature of his relationship with Tom Riddle, Sr., not due to any special degree of trust between the two, but rather to further indoctrinate an already radicalized Barty Crouch, Jr. and further solidify his loyalty whilst the weakened Voldemort was so dependent on him. Barty Crouch, Jr. in many ways appears to feel disenfranchised and abandoned by his own father. In sharing his own complex and fraught relationship with Tom Riddle, Sr., we see the cunning and seductive Tom Riddle, Jr. aspect of Voldemort’s character intentionally stoking feelings of affinity between Barty Crouch, Jr. and himself. Barty Crouch, Jr. seeks not only a substitute father in hoping Voldemort will welcome him ‘like a son,’ but also the sense of belonging and understanding brought about by a shared experience. If we presume that Barty Crouch, Jr. was aware of the steps of the ritual that took place in the graveyard, then he would know that the first ingredient was ‘bone of the father, unwillingly given.’ Voldemort murdered his own father and went on to further dehumanize him by reducing him to nothing more than the bone required to ensure the success of the ritual. Barty Crouch, Jr. could have disposed of his father’s body in any number of ways or concealed it as any number of things. I believe he chose the bone as some perverse way of feeling even more intertwined with Voldemort as his master. Barty Crouch, Jr. feels seen/reflected in Voldemort as the respective victims of paternal betrayal. As Voldemort murders his father and symbolically reduces him to a mere bone, Crouch Junior seeks to emulate his master. In a poetic ending to the fractious relationship between father and son, Junior’s final act against Senior was to literally transfigure him into ‘bone of the father.’ Love the show. Thanks, Declan.”

Andrew: That’s a beautiful theory.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Eric: Yeah. That was something I don’t think we caught on until toward the end of the book, just the extent of Barty Crouch, Jr.’s father issues and Voldemort as a surrogate for Barty Crouch, Jr., so I love the theory because it really itches that spot for me.

Laura: All right, our next email comes from Emily, who’s writing to us on Dark Marks and wand cores. Emily says,

“Greetings, MuggleCast, from your avid listener way up he-yah in Maine.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I probably butchered that because I don’t…

Andrew: “He-yah.” Is it kind of like a Boston accent type thing?

Laura: Ohh, I see. “Way up he-yah.” Okay, so:

“Two thoughts while listening through Goblet of Fire. First thought: In the graveyard scene when Voldemort regains his human form (which, in my head, is montaged to “Bring Me to Life” by Evanescence)…”

Eric: Of course.

[Laura laughs]

“He calls the Death Eaters to him by pressing on Wormtail’s Dark Mark. Andrew commented that his followers get there ‘pretty darn quick,’ which got me to thinking – did they have their Death Eater outfits on standby? Most of them were probably handy from the World Cup, but you have to think at least some of them have hidden those masks away for years when trying to pretend they had nothing to do with being a Death Eater. I just imagine Macnair, for example, getting the Dark Mark signal and then running around his house looking wildly everywhere for his mask. Or what if his wife had thrown it away? I mean, they have to be kind of gross if they were wearing them all the time; they’d get kind of sweaty or something. Or maybe she upcycled it into a kid’s Halloween costume, or sold it at a yard sale! How embarrassing would it be to show up at the revival of Voldemort in no mask? Or have to borrow a Freddy Kreuger mask and hope that no one said anything?”

Eric: Wow.

“Second thought: The shared wand cores between Harry and Voldemort really take a center stage starting in this book, which got me wondering why Voldemort received the wand with the core of Fawkes’s feather tail in the first place? Could he – I know this is far fetched and probably a crackpot theory, but – could Voldemort actually be a Dumbledore? It’s said that all wizarding families are related if you go back enough, so why would Fawkes’s tail have such an affinity for Voldemort? Did Ollivander tell Dumbledore about Tom Riddle’s wand when he bought it? Or did that information come out much later? Does the fact that a phoenix tail chose Tom Riddle indicate that he, at one point, could have chosen a pure and good path? Or does it possibly foreshadow his tale of rebirth? And lastly, if Harry didn’t have the Horcrux as part of him, which wand would he have received instead? Or would it be the same wand? As I was writing that last point it got a little out of control, but this is why you guys bring the real magic to the fandom. Thank you so much for the wonders you create through podcasting. You impact so many of us more than you realize.”

Laura: Emily, I really love all of this. I love imagining Amy Lee’s vocals as Voldemort is rising out of that pot, so thank you for that image. But also, I love the point about “Would Harry have received the wand with Fawkes’s feather core if he didn’t have the Horcrux inside of him?” I think it’s really interesting to posit, did that wand actually choose Voldemort, and because it chose Voldemort, it chose Harry? Or was it actually because the two of them shared much more beyond just the Horcrux? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone posit it that way before.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess it wouldn’t surprise me if you go way back into the family tree you do find some sort of connection there, but I like this idea that you’re raising, too, Laura. And I think a few weeks ago on the show, weren’t we talking about, like, did Fawkes only hand over two feathers? I mean, it’s destiny. It’s destiny, too, and I think that’s what I may have said at the time. This was just how it was always meant to be. It was written in the stars.

Eric: Well, I like the connection between Voldemort and rebirth, which of course we witness at the end of this book. And also just Harry’s own rebirth, partly at the very end, after Deathly Hallows, after when he goes into the forest, but even just from age one, he survives the Killing Curse that kills everybody else. So he’s born, or basically living on a leased life, and so the phoenix sort of, through its magic of rebirth, applies to him as well.

Micah: And isn’t there some relation to the Peveralls that both Harry and Voldemort have?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: I mean, to the point of what Emily raised about old wizarding families, they’re all related if you go back far enough. But I’m really just liking the analysis that she did here, all these questions. Most of these I don’t know that we’ve ever really thought about them much over the course of the history of this podcast.

Andrew: As for the honestly silly question about getting changed really quick when Voldemort is summoning you, I’m just imagining how it works in The Sims video game when you try to change their clothes. They just do this jump-spin and suddenly they’re in their gear. So that’s what I think happens with the Death Eaters.

Eric: Amazing.

Andrew: They just magically get into gear.

Eric: All I can think of was The Incredibles. “Honey, where’s my super suit?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Do you think that could be a plausible excuse for the ones who didn’t show up? Voldemort definitely puts them on blast in saying, “Hey, there’s a few of you who should be standing here who weren’t here.” Maybe those were the ones who couldn’t find their old Death Eater costumes.

Andrew: Yeah, they were having their own Incredibles moment.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: “I know I put it around here somewhere. Ugh, it doesn’t fit anymore; what am I going to do?”

Andrew: So Voldemort should show some grace for the people who were showing up late or not showing up at all.

Laura: Yeah, not in his wheelhouse.

Andrew: I mean, he can’t expect them to carry that cloak around at all times. It’s unreasonable, even by Voldemort’s standards. Come on, man.

Eric: I don’t think he has to be too forgiving. They’re going to have to lip sync for their lives.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, next email:

“In the upcoming television show, which actors will be the hardest to replace? In other words, who do you think most embodied their characters? My answer is definitely Robbie Coltrane, Maggie Smith, and maybe Mark Williams.”

Micah: All of the above. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, Robbie Coltrane is a big one.

Eric: Yeah, especially through all seven books. Because we’re focused toward Order, looking forward to Order, and the news about Imelda Staunton recording – which was not new news, but for the theme park – I’m thinking Umbridge. That was really nailed very, very well in the film, tonally and content-wise and everything, so it’d be hard to replace Umbridge. That’s who I’m thinking of.

Andrew: So with all due respect to Mark Williams, he’s just sort of a goofball in the movies with occasional bits of seriousness, so I think he’ll be easy to replace. Maggie Smith, love her; replaceable. Robbie Coltrane, he will be hard to replace, I think, because of his fatherly relationship with Harry across the series, and his gruffy voice. I would say Michael Gambon or Richard Harris, but we’ve seen three Dumbledores now, and I’ve been cool with all three, so…

Eric: Well, here’s a suggestion then: If they are going to replace… well, they have to replace these characters. My suggestion for the HBO Max show would be to be as ruthlessly faithful to book canon as possible for the description. So make Petunia a blonde, for instance. Low-hanging fruit like that. That doesn’t necessarily limit casting, but if you really want to shoot for the stars, make the Marauders the age they’re supposed to be based on the book, not who’s famous in Britain and available, because there’s good actors of all ages, shapes, sizes, everything. So that would be my guiding line, I guess, for… because you can replace any character with a different actor who wasn’t altogether that close to book canon in the movies, is what I’m saying, to make a good TV show. Does that make sense?

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: For me, one that really comes to mind is Rupert Grint; I just think he embodied Ron so much. I think that the natural tendency is to go to the adult actors, but I think the trio is really going to be hard to replace, and going to receive a lot of criticism early on.

Eric: It was right there the whole time, you’re right. The trio.

Andrew: And it’s going to be really interesting to see how the Internet reacts because the Internet is going to have to remember – and Dan Radcliffe actually said this the other day, so I’m repurposing his thought when he was being interviewed – people are going to have to be really easy on the kids, because they’re kids, and they don’t deserve to be attacked or criticized for decisions that are probably being made way above their heads in terms of dialogue and how they deliver lines and stuff like that.

Micah: Sure, sure.

Andrew: But yeah, it will be hard to see a new trio.

Micah: The other thing he said, which I thought was really important, is that social media is a real concern now, where it wasn’t when they were initially cast and in their roles in the early movies. Even into the some of the later films, too; I mean, the platforms just weren’t there, and they certainly weren’t as critical as they are now. But I don’t think we can move on from this question without also mentioning Alan Rickman as Snape. I just think people associate him and Snape so closely together that it’s going to be hard to have somebody else step into that role.

Eric: This next one comes from James about Voldemort’s return.

“Hi, MuggleCast. I wanted to add my thoughts on what sometimes seems like the giant plot hole of Book 4’s existence: the fact that Fakey could have just handed Harry a surprise Portkey after class or something, and avoided the whole ordeal of spending months getting Harry to the center of the maze. I think the key is that Voldemort really wants his comeback to be a complete secret, without even the smallest hint of suspicion. If Harry shows up dead one ordinary day for no apparent reason, it’s going to instantly bring up thoughts of his lifelong connection to Voldemort. So instead, Voldemort waits for this crazy event with a history of violence and death, which is the rare thing that can provide a plausible non-Voldemort pretext for Harry suddenly showing up dead. Honestly, it’s a pretty good plan. If the plan goes as it’s supposed to, and Harry shows up back at Hogwarts dead with the Triwizard Cup pulling him along as a Portkey, appearing to the audience as if it came straight from the center of the maze, what are people going to think? Probably that Harry somehow died in the maze as he got to the cup. We actually see this by the reaction to Cedric’s death. Everyone settles on the explanation that the tournament caused some sort of tragic accident. Pretty much no one besides Harry’s inner circle thinks Voldemort had anything to do with it — which is just what would have happened if Harry had died in the graveyard, and just what Voldemort was hoping for, which is why he went to the trouble of such a crazy elaborate plan.”

Thanks, James. Yeah, that should have been… I mean, it wasn’t explicit in the books, but I feel like we’re really nailing that in our discussions of the book about that that was the plan with the Portkey and everything.

Andrew: HedwigsTheme is saying, “This is the best explanation for that plot hole I’ve heard thus far.”

Eric: Ah, we have to remove hole status. We can’t call it plot hole anymore.

Andrew: [laughs] Remove hole status. Interesting potential episode title.

Laura: Our next email comes from Bev, and Bev writes in about Nagini’s milk. Oh boy.

“Hi y’all. While the missing finger/missing nose gag was good, I have a different theory. My headcanon is that the effect of Voldemort drinking Nagini’s milk (ick) is that he became more snake-like. So the lack of a nose, the baldness, the pale skin, etc. is because of Nagini. I’m also sure this would’ve had other effects on Voldemort’s corporeal form. It must, since she was a Maledictus. “

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think the movies took it a little too far, personally. I always felt like they really leaned in to the snakelike nature of Voldemort in a way that wasn’t super necessary, because it was already pretty evident from the way he was described in the books. And maybe it was just Ralph Fiennes’s body language; maybe that’s more what turned me off to the way he was portrayed in the films. I don’t know. What do y’all think?

Eric: Yeah, I definitely think… I mean, you are what you eat, right?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So there is definitely a connection there between the venom of a snake who used to be human and a man who wants to be human again by drinking snake’s venom. So I like the… same as the connection between Voldemort and Harry, it’s just the same thing over and over and over again, seven ways to Sunday. Voldemort is related to snakes, in a way. He resembles a snake. His House Slytherin is snaky. He speaks to snakes. All this other stuff is… so many connections between Voldemort and snakes that I just really like this theory.

Andrew: Yeah, I think this is one part of the overall correct answer. I mean, this guy is just a mess, splitting his soul into seven pieces, all the killing that he’s done, drinking Nagini’s milk, being a terrible person… I mean, there’s a lot of reasons you would end up looking like that, I think, so I could see this being one critical portion of who Voldemort ultimately turned into.

Micah: Our next email comes from Sabrina on Harry Potter and A Merchant of Venice. She says,

“Hi MuggleCast. This is Sabrina, 35, from Germany, and I’m a Hufflepuff. I’m a long-time-listener, and first of all I wanted to say, ‘Thank you for all you do.’ There’s nothing better than listening to MuggleCast when you bring your toddler to kindergarten.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew and Laura: Aww.

“I was listening to Episode #665 the other day and you guys were talking about the ingredients for the Voldy-resurrection potion and the fact that Wormtail had to offer up his flesh as a servant. That reminded me very much of the Shakespearean image of the ‘pound of flesh’ in A Merchant of Venice. The character Antonio borrows 3,000 ducats from Shylock, who demands a pound of flesh as security. I found this very reminiscent of the situation of Wormtail and Voldemort. Voldemort also demands the flesh of the servant as a kind of security, and eventually Wormtail can’t keep his end of the bargain when he ‘betrays’ Voldemorts and hesitates in Book 7, which eventually leads to his death. I found that connection really interesting as the pound of flesh has become a symbol of security in many literary works. Thanks again for all the great work! Sabrina.”

Andrew: Very cool.

Eric: If only Pettigrew had a Portia to defend him and be like, “No, you don’t have to take his flesh.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I read that book in school. I bet the wizarding world would actually have a way to exact on that amount of sacrifice, but it’s a heck of a… it’s a good literary reference because I think, like all great works of literature, there’s some crossover.

Andrew: And thanks for the kind words, Sabrina. This next email is from Jeremy on portraits being a security nightmare.

“G’day MuggleCast! It’s 13-year-old Jeremy from Sydney, Australia, and I have been listening to your episode on the Yule Ball and I have a question about Cedric’s hint to Harry. Cedric tells Harry about how to get into the prefects’ bathroom with a painting as the entry. Harry gets in and he’s not a prefect. Does this sound familiar to you? Well, it sounds the same as the last book when Sirius gets into Gryffindor Tower. So if I am correct, every entry to something with a painting, you just need the password? It’s kind of like a security nightmare to me! What do you think? Love the show.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yes, Jeremy, it’s well documented on the show that much of the school is…

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: And it is a massive flaw of the school that you just need a password to get in somewhere. And as I say that, it’s like, “Well, that’s what we do with computers; that’s a massive flaw too,” yeah, but we’re trying to get better with face ID and fingerprint scans and passkeys and two-factor authentication.

Laura: Right, I know.

Andrew: We’re evolving. What’s Hogwarts doing? How are they evolving? That castle’s been around for a while.

Laura: I feel like we’ve all been sitting around asking, “Where’s the 2FA for this?”

Andrew: “Where’s the 2FA?”

Laura: Come on, y’all.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I’d love to be in Gryffindor tower with my homies and the one guy who hasn’t been back yet is doing homework in his library. I get… an owl flies in and is like, “This guy’s trying to get into the common room. Are you familiar? Are you familiar? Do you authorize?”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Well, and you would have to think that with all the magic that’s in the wizarding world, they could come up with some additional layer of security that detects whether or not this student is Gryffindor…

Micah: Prefect.

Andrew: … so they can come through the Fat Lady portrait. Or yeah, a prefect. That seems very possible in this wizarding world. That doesn’t seem like a particularly crazy ask in terms of magic. [laughs]

Eric: Right, and I mean, honestly, the verbal passwords don’t even have special characters, and they don’t have to be a certain amount of length.

Andrew: Of characters, right. Good point. That’s a good point too. Yeah, any special characters? Do you need a uppercase letter and a lowercase letter?

Eric: Right. Dictate that.

Micah: Yeah, this isn’t any bathroom.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It’s the best bathroom. Wait, it’s the only bathroom. Well…

Andrew: It’s the one that has the best baths, it seems.

Micah: Who knows what Harry could have walked in on? I mean, it’s for older students.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Lot of taps.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Go ahead, Laura. Sorry, I cut you off earlier.

Laura: Oh, no. I was just going to add if it’s a verbal password, how easily does it let you off the hook for mispronunciations?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Or how close do you have to get to the password for the Fat Lady to be like, “Ah, all right. You’re in.”

Eric: If that’s the… I mean, some of us struggle with pronunciation of Harry Potter terms a lot, so it’s like, what if we had to sleep outside our common room because we didn’t say Levi-OH-sa, we said Levio-SAH?

Laura: I mean, think about… what was…? I forget which book it was, but it was over the winter holidays – it might have been this one, actually – and the password was “Fairy lights,” and the fat lady goes, “That’s right, lairy fights! Haha!” because she’s drunk.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: So they’re drinking on the job too. We know in the wizarding world there’s the Thief’s Downfall – we see that in Deathly Hallows and in Gringotts – and it washes away magical concealments or enchantments.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: So that seems adjacent to a similar type of magic that would prevent somebody who’s not supposed to be going into the prefects’ bathroom or into a Hogwarts House they don’t belong to.

Micah: Well, what does it do to you? Give you a rash?

Andrew: The Thief’s Downfall?

Micah: No, no, no. If you go into the prefects’ bathroom and you’re not a prefect.

Andrew: It just pushes you back out or something.

Laura: Or it dumps water on you.

Eric: Yeah, what’s the incentive to becoming a prefect if just anybody can walk into the bathroom?

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it’s good for your resume, but…

Eric: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: Especially something as simple as a password can leak out.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Anybody could end up in that bathroom.

Eric: So our next message – and this is a really cool one – comes from Julian about comparing the tasks to the first three books.

“Hey MuggleCast, I had a theory about the tasks in the Triwizard Tournament and how they link to the books before Goblet of Fire. Task one links to Book 1, as it is the more action-packed of the three. Harry must retrieve something (the Stone/the egg) from a looming danger (Voldemort/the dragon). The dragons themselves could be linked to Norbert, and the avoidance from Ron could parallel the avoidance from Hermione in the first part of Book 1. Task two links to Book 2, as it involves a mystery to be solved, and saving a loved one, specifically one of the Weasleys (Ginny/Ron). Also, the re-introduction of characters from the second book (Myrtle and Dobby) as well as being reintroduced to the Polyjuice Potion. Task three links to Book 3 due to a murder occurring and the Ministry having no clue about the true assailant. Additionally, Harry goes over a lot of old Defense Against the Dark Arts spells, and the third book is notable as the one where he learns the most Defense Against the Dark Arts (at least, he learns it more effectively from Lupin than any other teacher). It also includes Trewlaney’s Book 3 prophecy coming to a head. Would love to hear your thoughts on this, Julian.”

Eric: That’s cool, Julian.

Andrew: That is very cool.

Eric: This is the most direct and convincing version of this that I’ve heard, the way it was succinct at threading the needle. I really appreciate it. I think it’s very interesting.

Micah: Yeah, I agree.

Laura: Agree.

Micah: Next email comes from Ann on the real Barty Crouch, Jr.

“Hey guys, just listened to Episode #663 and I had a thought about your discussion of Barty Crouch, Jr. Ya’ll were going back and forth on what his intentions were as a new Death Eater and how maybe it was guilt by association based on who he was caught with and the severity of their crimes against the Longbottoms. I disagree! Though he was young and had gone through a childhood with severe parenting, I always thought of Barty Crouch, Jr. as a complete psychopath! His ‘breakdown and pleading’ at his trial strikes me as what a very good liar would do. One reason Voldemort considers him to be ‘his greatest servant’ could be that they display similar psychopathy. Most of the time I agree that the characters are complex individuals but in Barty Crouch, Jr.’s case I saw it all as black and white. Thanks for the show.”

Andrew: Wow. Someone is not a fan of BCJ.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, fair enough; he’s not a great guy. But I can definitely appreciate the interpretation that he just wasn’t right, whether it was he was a psychopath or whatever else you might want to label him. I can definitely understand that interpretation because at the end of the day, you can have conversations about intent versus impact, and it doesn’t really matter what Barty Crouch, Jr.’s intent was with what he did, because the impact was what it was. I will say, I still prefer to take a little bit more of a gray area reading of his character, just on the basis of how we saw his relationship with his father manifest, and how he’s clearly looking for a surrogate father in Voldemort.

Eric: Yeah, this recent reread has convinced me almost the opposite, that his innocence was absolute, or he was wrapped up in stuff he didn’t understand or comprehend – until Azkaban, and then he was like, “Oh, now I’m going to be the Death Eater I thought I would be.” I will say, the movie version doesn’t do him any favors. First of all, there’s the tongue thing.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But then also, you see him at the trial kind of working his way, leaving a little bit before it all goes down, like he knows it’s going to go down. But in the book, he’s just a scared teenager. So it’s very interesting. I tend to still stick with he was caught up in stuff too big for him the first time, and then post-Azkaban is absolutely 100% responsible for all of his actions.

Micah: I’m kind of liking this, though, that he was really just playing his father the whole time, playing the courtroom the whole time. It would align with the Barty Crouch, Jr. we see at the very end of Goblet of Fire.

Eric: I like that, yeah.

Micah: Because what else would you do in that situation? I understand what you’re saying; in the movie it’s portrayed much differently, but if you’re trying to get out of the situation, of course you would play it up as much as possible. Try to get Daddy to get you off the hook.

Eric: Yeah, that’s why it’s unknowable. But we know that if Barty Crouch, Jr. was faking, if Fakey was faking being innocent for the courtroom, it worked so well that it actually garnered sympathy from the audience to the point where Barty Crouch, Sr.’s Ministry of Magic prospects to become Minister were never again. People thought he was too hard on his kid after that moment. So if Barty Crouch, Jr. was faking it again, or before – the first time – that’s wild. He’s wildly effective.

Laura: I think what makes it a fun analysis moment for this show is that we’ll never really know.

Eric: Right.

Laura: There’s not enough evidence one way or the other. Even – we called it out earlier in the book – Dumbledore says he doesn’t know if Barty Crouch, Jr. actually did it.

Andrew: The great mystery of BCJ.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] Well, our next email comes from Madoka. I hope I pronounced that correctly. They write in on the tasks of prior Triwizard Tournaments, and they write,

“Hey MuggleCast! I’m gonna hit you with a question right off the bat – what were the tasks of the past tournaments? Were they the same or different from the ones we get to read about? I’m pretty sure there was a mention of a different task happening in the past, but what it was or what it said fails me. What could the tasks have possibly been to get the death toll so high that they had to stop the tournament? Did they water the tasks down in this year’s tournament, or did the tournament just go on for so long that the deaths just happened to add up high enough? Would love to hear your thoughts.”

Andrew: It’s funny to hear this person say “watered down” when there’s dragons involved in one of the tasks.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: What if there was some sort of climbing task, or some sort of other aerial task? Something that just comes with a lot of danger.

Eric: These tasks were plenty dangerous too.

Andrew: They were, they were.

Eric: So yeah, it could be anything.

Andrew: More dragons. Five dragons against one wizard.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Even angrier merpeople. Bigger Grindylows.

Laura: Yeah, I can almost…

Micah: It’s not always…

Laura: Go ahead, Micah.

Micah: Well, I was thinking it’s probably not always at Hogwarts, right? So being at a different school would allow for different challenges to be present, right? If you’re at Durmstrang or Beauxbatons.

Andrew: I was going to say, if it’s not at Hogwarts it’s inherently safer, because the school is a mess.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That’s a fair point.

Eric: Maybe. Maybe. I don’t know. Yeah, if you’re in the mountains, it’s mountain climbing. If you’re at Beauxbatons, it’s French cuisine. Those are the tasks.

Andrew: [laughs] They ate themselves to death.

Laura: I kind of wonder if in prior tournaments, there weren’t requirements to have the tasks necessarily take place on school grounds. I could see the regulations being a lot more lax about where and when things were happening. I could also see… just because we know this tournament has gone on for a very long time, I could see there not being as many safety regulations in place in terms of having crews of people on hand to jump in and help if you were to send up those red sparks when you’re in the maze showing that you’re in trouble. These just might not be things they had before.

Andrew: And maybe less hints about what lies ahead, too, because they get some clues. Maybe they were way less prepared with previous Triwizard Tournaments. Well, speaking of the tasks, Pauline wrote in about the pressure of the second task.

“Hello, everyone. When listening to your episode on the second task, I had a thought concerning your critical view on the people being taken under the lake. You were pointing out that it was completely unnecessary and way too extreme to take actual loved ones of the respective champions as ‘captives’ and that it could have been done easily without them. But maybe the added pressure of having to save someone you love is a part of this task in order to test how the champions can handle it and act under seemingly real stakes. Just a thought. Keep up the good work and greetings from Germany.”

I like the thought, Pauline. How do they react under pressure? And we did later learn after that discussion – I might be wrong, but I think Eric in particular was very fired up about this concept – I think we later learned… I think Ron or Hermione says later on, “They did ask our permission to participate,” right?

Eric: Yeah, it’s in the opening paragraph of the very next chapter. Yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Totally overlooked it. I have made my peace; I have disclaimered away. That said, I think the spirit of wanting to get to the goal would have been enough pressure without the psychological torture that Fleur undergoes, for instance, in losing her sister, or not being able to save her sister. Those scars are probably still with her!

Micah: [laughs] Well, no recap episode of Goblet of Fire would have been appropriate without having a question related to the second task in here, after all the discussion we had on it.

Eric: I appreciate that, Micah. Thank you very much.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And thank you to Pauline, and all our listeners from Germany. Shout-out to Germany. Danke. This next email comes from Julia on the Room of Requirement and imported cauldrons.

“Hello! I’ve been enjoying the podcast and the series Chapter by Chapter. I have a question and a thought about Goblet of Fire. Do you think that if Harry had gone to the Room of Requirement, it would have given him the Gillyweed and/or another solution to being able to compete in the second challenge? And a thought – when I reread Goblet of Fire I noticed the running bit about Percy and the imported cauldrons with thin bottoms and laughed at the alternate universe ending where Wormtail makes the potion in the graveyard but uses an illegally imported cauldron and ruins the return of Voldemort.”

[Laura laughs]

“They had recently been in Albania, after all. Thanks for everything. You’ve helped me navigate a divorce and get my life back to normal.”

Eric: Wow, Julia.

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: Hilarious about the cauldron bottoms.

Micah: I was actually wondering what would have happened if they went through the whole resurrection, and the bottom just dropped out.

Eric: Literally?

Micah: Yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And it was tied back to Percy’s… never mind. His problems he was having earlier on in the book. All right, our final email today comes from Katie, and it’s kind of a fun one. It’s about Blast-Ended Skrewts, and she says,

“So my husband had a very fun theory about Skrewts. He believes the Skrewts date back as far as the Fantastic Beasts era. I’ve yapped on enough about everything Harry Potter that when we watched The Secrets of Dumbledore, and Theseus and Newt emerged from the tie Portkey and the manticore leg finds its way into the lake at Hogwarts, my husband leaned over and said (unknowingly like Ron in Goblet of Fire) whispered, “Skrewts,” and it clicked. So long story short, the manticore leg from Theseus and Newt’s adventure with fire crabs came to be an essential part of the creation of Skrewts.”

What do we think?

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: That would be a really fun Easter egg.

Andrew: And there’s always been that theory about Newt giving Hagrid an egg, right?

Eric: Aragog.

Andrew: Aragog, so maybe…

Eric: Yeah. But I love this idea that you cross a manticore and a fire crab, and yeah, they’re at Hogwarts. Ahh. See, this is more satisfying of a mystery than the whole predictions of Tycho Dodonus and the prophecy about who Credence really is.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: None of that is interesting, but this, I will watch a fourth installment of the film franchise.

Andrew: Heck, you’ll watch two more movies, since they promised two.

Eric: Heck, I’ll watch the five that were promised!

Laura: Too bad they’re parked.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You say park because Newt is coming back to the park! [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, of course! Forgot about that.

Eric: Eddie. Eddie is coming back.

Andrew: His great return. Well, this has been a really fun Muggle Mail episode. And listeners, if you have any feedback about this episode, or you want to tell us how you lock down your bathroom, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Laura is shaking her head. Laura, I want to know how to lock down the prefects’ bathroom, or my own bathroom. I got a tub.

Laura: Oh, no, I was… you just made me giggle, that’s all. I wasn’t admonishing you.

Andrew: I’ve got spouts. [laughs] Or you can call us. Our number is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, bring your copy of Order of the Phoenix digital Blu-ray, DVD… VHS? Do those exist? Because we’ll be offering up our Order of the Phoenix movie commentary.

Eric: You forgot laser disc and reel to reel.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, sure.

[Eric laughs]


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question – and this was actually going back a few weeks, so thanks to everybody for your patience – with what 2006 movie was the first trailer for Order of the Phoenix released? The correct answer was Happy Feet! And shout-out especially to Danny K., who says that they saw the movie Happy Feet for this reason, to catch the Order of the Phoenix trailer. That’s hardcore.

Andrew: Sounds right. Back in the day, we had to do that. Wasn’t so easy to watch trailers online.

Eric: Yeah, or try streaming with a 56k modem, and it would load every couple of seconds, and then it would buffer, and then you’d have to reload, then you’d watch the next six seconds and the previous six… it was awful.

Micah: We’re all having flashbacks to trying to update MuggleNet and it crashing, right? Because it couldn’t handle the traffic.

Eric: Oh, man. So at some point, Andrew, during these answers, somebody has requested the Dumbledore voice; I’ve highlighted that part. Is that good for you?

Andrew: Sure, let’s do it.

Eric: I’ll just defer to you, so there we go. Correct answers, in addition to Danny K., were submitted by Patronus Seeker; Mumble the Penguin; Buff Daddy; Quick, someone threw the Goblet in the lake; The soft return of Tofu Tom; I watched this on a date and loved the movie but sucked at the mini golf, so apologies to my date for being in a bad mood; SassyRavenclaw43; Karma’s a Snitch; Lady Hermione lookalike; That look that Dumbledore gives Fudge; Order of the Phoenix is giving Wednesday; and Andrew?

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Another dangerous year gone, and welcome to the second killing war!”

Eric: [laughs] Lauren P.; I’m not actually Count Ravioli but I miss them… aw. The importance of being Harry; Never played before but this was a core memory; Mrs. Snape; One lost warlock; RIP MinaLima, Harry Potter books; Dudley’s former turtle hurled out of the greenhouse window, Book 1, Chapter 3; Luke the 12-year-old; Joy S.; Winky’s overworked therapist; The money Dumbledore owes Harry for his therapy; MuggleCast socks plus Laura’s pants plus MuggleCast 19 years later T-shirt make an outfit that is totally fetch…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … Anna; and “I’m a Puff!” So wow, lot of suggestions. They were adding up over the weeks that we did not do Quizzitch, and similarly, we will also not be doing Quizzitch next week, but here is the question for Episode 675: In the United States, Harry Potter and the Order to the Phoenix the movie was the fifth highest-grossing film of 2007 domestically. Name at least two films that year which earned more money. So Order of the Phoenix the movie is number five; what were at least two of the other most grossing films of 2007 in the US alone? Also, bonus points to anyone who plays Quizzitch if you don’t look this up and you get them right. We’re going to do a whole new thing with Quizzitch, which is I’ve now added a question to the form that says, “Did you look this up?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Don’t worry; you will still win if you look this up. It’s an open book quiz, after all. But we’re going to track and just deliver the percentage each week of people – we’re keeping you honest, by the way – who say that they had to look up the answer to the question.

Andrew: Oh, okay. Well, this one takes some effort to look up if you really want to look it up, so we appreciate if you put in any sort of effort for Quizzitch.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Always, always, always. I think people do it for the fun names. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. This show is brought to you by Muggles like you. We are an independent podcast doing this show because we’re really passionate about the Harry Potter fandom, and because we’re an indie show, your support is of the utmost importance. In fact, it is the only reason why we’ve been able to podcast 19 years later. So here are the two best ways to help us out: If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. Recent bonus MuggleCast episodes cover theme park announcements and the major news concerning the recent Harry Potter illustrated editions, and we have a another big newsy installment of bonus MuggleCast coming up later this week. For even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers – we’re going to announce new stickers in a couple weeks, by the way – another new physical gift each year, a video message from one of the four of us, our private Facebook and Discord groups where you can hang out with us and fellow fans, and so much more. We could not do this without you, so thanks, everybody, for your support. And if you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show, and also help us spread the word by leaving a five star review in your favorite podcast app. And last but not least, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. And don’t forget to go to Instagram and follow MuggleCast right there so we can hit that 10,000 follower threshold. Thank you, and that does it for this week’s episode. We’ll see everybody next week. Thank you so much for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Transcript #672

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #672, The MuggleCasters Reunite in Washington D.C.!


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re all together! Woo!

Eric: With our powers combined!

Andrew: No Riverside delay here.

Eric: Put your hands up! Let’s all hold hands! This is great!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: When did you last wash your hands? So yeah, for the first time since we’re thinking 2010…

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: … the four of us are all together in one place, and it’s crazy. We got together on Monday; it’s currently Wednesday. We are in the DC area for a podcast industry conference, and we’ve gone to a couple of these, but we haven’t all gone to one together. Micah, Eric, and I went to one in what?

Eric: 2018? 2019?

Andrew: Oh, in Orlando, right? Yeah. So yeah, and we have Laura here for this one too. We had a MuggleCast patron meetup last night.

Eric: It was so lovely.

Laura: It was so good.

Andrew: Yeah, we didn’t even really try to push it too much.

Micah: Well, some of us did.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: What do you mean? Oh, you pushed it at the bar, that’s for sure. Micah may have had one drink too many. One butterbeer too many. But yeah, we didn’t promote it too heavily because we were busy at the conference, so we didn’t want to have too big a group. So we did announce on Patreon “We’ll be in the area; fill out this form if you’re interested,” and anybody who did was contacted. But yeah, everybody was so sweet, right? And we got a group picture.

Laura: What I loved about it is I felt like I got to spend a lot of one-on-one time with people, really getting to know them, and getting to catch up with some of them who I already did know. And got to have a lot of really good conversations with people about other fandoms that they’re into as well, which is really good inspiration for our other show What the Hype?!, so it was just really good all around to get to see people come out who, in a lot of cases, have been supporting the show for a long time.

Eric: Oh, so many. That was when everyone introduced themselves, and one of the parameters was, “How long have you been listening?” Absolutely not a competition, but I will swear there were people that were… it was for most of the history of the show.

Micah: Yeah, it was just great to see people coming from so many different places, near and far, to DC. People from North Carolina; somebody flew down from Boston, New York…

Eric: Connecticut, yeah. Virginia.

Andrew: Yeah, somebody… Ryan was also going to a concert last night, too.

Laura: That’s right, yeah.

Andrew: But that’s great, because it’s like, “Okay, you’re coming out for two things. It’s not just us.” We’re all like, “You’re coming out for us, y’all? That’s so amazing!”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But I think the takeaway for all of us – and we’ve talked about it throughout today – is just we should figure out a way to do this more, but also that more.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, and this area, the DC area, is very central for a lot of people, so that helps. We had 20 people. Like I said, we only posted about it once, but I think we easily could have a much larger… we could easily get 100 people together in this area.

Eric: Oh, absolutely.

Laura: Yeah, that would be fun.

Andrew: So yeah, we’ll think about that.

Eric: But it’s always a wonderful and rewarding experience to get together. I remember doing a meetup at the last Podcast Movement with people.

Andrew: We did.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s just really wonderful to meet people.

Micah: Yeah, and we did one in Portland a couple months ago.

Eric: That’s right, yep.

Micah: We did one in Chicago last year.

Eric: Yeah, but it still feels like too few, especially for how good it feels just to get to talk to people.

Andrew: I said to these three, “We’ve still got it. We’ve still got it!”

Eric: We got it!

Andrew: People are coming out for us, woohoo! But no, really, it meant a lot. And we bought everybody a drink if they wanted a drink, and yeah, it was a good night. So thanks to everybody who came out. We have a picture; we posted it on our Instagram stories, but I’m sure we’ll get it on the grid, too, so it exists in perpetuity. But we thought for this episode we could take some questions from listeners. We went on Patreon, and we said, “We’re all together for the first time in 14-15 years, so what questions do you want us to ask each other face to face?”

Eric: Oh, no.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And so we’ll focus on those. But I mean, any other…

[sound of a can opening]

Andrew: That was the crack of Laura’s boyfriend’s Truly Unruly. The sponsor of this week’s episode of MuggleCast.

Eric: Speaking of sponsors…

Andrew: “Truly Unruly: When the MuggleCast meetup wasn’t enough for you.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: “Come to MuggleCast: After Dark.”

Andrew: But I guess before we get into the questions, we should probably say that, like I mentioned, we’ve been here learning about the podcast industry, and it’s been great, but it’s thanks to listener support that we were able to get here. And I always say this in my Bonjoro videos to listeners: I don’t know about y’all, but we use your support to buy new podcasting equipment. We’re wearing microphones right now that have been purchased through Patreon support. When we need a new mic at home, when we want to go to a podcast conference, we use your support for stuff like that, so it’s all really helpful in helping us run the show.

Eric: Yeah, exactly like that; we put it back into the podcast. And we are learning things here at this conference, too, that are going to go directly back into the show and make the experience – especially if you’re a patron – to make your experience that much better, even, because a lot of this is about that exact topic.

Andrew: We’ve got, like, 20 Google Docs at this point. [laughs]

Eric: That was just day one.

Andrew: Maybe 30 or 40 at this point.

Laura: Yeah, I was going to say, we were really effective at dividing and conquering on this because we were like, “We have four people; we can just divide up these panels,” and we each went and plugged in our notes into shared Google Docs, and it’s really impressive.

Eric: Every so often… it’s extremely impressive. And it’s really just wonderful walking by and seeing somebody in the distance, one of you guys.

Laura: Yeah, I know. That actually happened this morning; Andrew and I were in a session together, and then we looked over and we saw you and we were like, “Eric!”

Eric: That’s right! You were like, “Look to your left!”

Andrew: I texted Eric, “Look left,” and I was just staring. But one thing I should also call out is a couple of our listeners are here too, attending the conference. Kira, who I’ve met before, and for you three, it was your first time meeting her.

Eric: Yeah, she’s great.

Laura: Love her.

Andrew: She has her own podcast, “DNA Today.” She is so successful with that show; we’re so happy for her. And then I was leaving a NPR panel yesterday, and I’m walking out and somebody says, “Excuse me,” and she comes up, and she’s like, “Are you…?” And then she looks at my badge and sees “Andrew, MuggleCast,” and she was like, “Oh my gosh, this is crazy. I work at NPR podcast because of you. I heard about podcasts through MuggleCast back in the day!” And we saw her again today; her name is June, and she was just so excited to have met all of us. She said she hasn’t met Laura yet, but if/when she runs into you, she said she’s going to cry tears of joy because she loves you so much.

Laura: Aww.

Eric: The funniest thing she said, June did, was that she told her mom that she had met you, Andrew…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Then she called her mom last night about it!

Eric: And her mom knew, and her mom was like, “Oh, that’s that podcast that you used to listen to when you were 13 and weren’t doing your homework and instead were listening to podcasts?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: The fact that her mom still carries a grudge toward – vaguely – MuggleCast? Oh, it’s so fun.

Laura: And it could have been so much worse. It was a literary analysis podcast that she was skipping her homework for.

Eric: Look, and now her daughter works for NPR. How cool is that?

Laura: Right.

Andrew: I think it all works out just fine. And I said to June, “And we weren’t doing homework; we were podcasting instead of doing our homework.”

Eric: That’s true.

Laura: Oh, trust me, I used to get in trouble for that all the time.

Andrew: [laughs] But yeah, so it was great meeting her.


Listener questions


Andrew: But anyway, let’s get into these questions from patrons. So we wanted to start with some questions about the hosts and the show itself. Eric, do you want to kick off the questions?

Eric: Yeah, this one’s from Hannele. She says, “Is it any different being in the same room together than when recording across the Internet? If so, what is different?”

Andrew: Well, first of all, there’s no delay. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, that’s nice.

Andrew: That’s really helpful.

Laura: That’s really nice. I also feel like, I don’t know, it’s easier to pick up on mannerisms and body language too. There have been multiple times… because we just recorded something else right before this, and there have been multiple times where we’ve all kind of just started doubling over in laughter, and there wasn’t particularly anything that was said. It was just maybe the way that somebody… maybe somebody’s facial expression, or maybe a quick quip that would have been missed when we were recording on Riverside, for example.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, that’s a good call.

Laura: Think about the number of times somebody says something pithy, and you’re like, “What?” [laughs] We’re all like old people, like, “Say that again?” Here we don’t have that, so it’s definitely a lot more crisp, I think.

Micah: Not having to scream. And I can, to your point, look at Andrew and make him start laughing.

Andrew: [laughs] You just stared at me!

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, but yeah.

Eric: We high-fived during… we can just do any of it.

Andrew: It’s so much… it’s just easier to do these episodes, too, when we’re all sitting together in person. It doesn’t feel like work as much. And I mean, we rarely actually do this together, so I think that helps too. But if we really wanted to, we could spend an entire day just knocking out ten episodes if we wanted. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is… and speaking of the screen not being there, too, it’s wild because when we moved to Riverside and started doing – or even on Zoom – doing video podcasting, we could see each other’s reaction. We could pivot when we knew somebody else had something to say, and all that other stuff is very organic. But now it’s like that in OmniMax; it’s literally like I have a 360 degree view of all of you guys. I know that Micah is barefoot right now, and…

Andrew: [laughs] Hopefully not.

Eric: … oh, wait, just kidding. He has his shoes on, and I do not. But yeah, it’s just a completely unbelievable experience. Is this what this is like for people who like each other and hang out in person?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Honestly.

Laura: Well, I mean, I think about the number of podcasters who do generally record their episodes together in person and have studios, and I don’t know, I kind of like the idea of when we get together… obviously, this is a very short trip, pretty quick turnaround, but I don’t know; it could be fun in the future when we get together to say, “Hey, we’re going to knock out several episodes over the course of the time that we’re together,” because we don’t get to do this enough.

Eric: The thing is, too, just the comfort level. I am so comfortable with you guys; we’ve known each other 19 years. And part of it is, too, that I’m in the Micah Chair.

Andrew: I was just going to say that. [laughs]

Eric: I did move into the Micah Chair.

Andrew: Eric is in a high back chair.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: So that’s what the experience is like.

Eric: It’s wild, and we got a couple more about being in person together. So who wants to take John’s question?

Laura: I can take John’s question. John asks, “Are any of you taller or shorter than the other hosts than you expected or remembered? Who is the tallest and who is the shortest?”

Andrew: That’s so funny.

Eric: Can we do a quick stand here real quick? Because I think…

Laura: I think I’m the shortest.

Andrew: I think so.

Eric: Maybe. Should we get up? I think Micah is taller than me, right? So you and I are the same height, Andrew, Micah is the tallest, and Laura is under? Yeah.

Andrew: But I expected all these heights, you know?

Laura: Yeah, there’s nothing surprising about it.

Andrew: No. Yeah, although one of our listeners who showed up at the hangout last night, Laura – another Laura – she’s pretty short, and I just say that because when we met, she was like, “Oh my gosh, you guys are taller than I thought!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’re not… I’m like, 5’10”.

Eric: That’s hilarious.

Micah: Next question comes from Xabrina, who says, “Would love to know how does it feel to record in real life with each other after a long time. I’m also curious to know how often you guys have creative differences, or any differences regarding podcast stuff, and how you manage it whilst being friends.”

Laura: That’s a good question.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, in terms of recording IRL, it felt weird at first, but I think it starts feeling organic.

Laura: I will say, for the first two minutes we were sitting here – because Andrew is beside me – you were making a lot of direct eye contact, and I was like, “It’s weird that there’s not a screen.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Where you can just run away from me whenever I’m being annoying.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: No, but I mean, it feels good.

Eric: Another thing I’ll add to that is I remember everyone’s general vibe and idiosyncrasies from however many years ago it’s been that we’ve been in the same room, and there’s something so comforting about coming back to that too. Just like, even if we’re not talking, even if we’re not looking at each other, just that we are a comforting presence in each other’s… just being in the same room together is very comforting.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And to that end, this question about creative differences and stuff, we have grown together for so many years, and the ego is gone. The individual ego, I think, is largely gone from this group, and we know that if we’re making a suggestion that the others don’t like that it’s not a personal dislike, that it doesn’t reflect on us personally, and we have just this amazing rapport. And so that’s been a great just experience because of how we’ve matured, and how we’ve grown together.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And I mean, creative differences, I feel like it’s pretty normal in a group like this, especially for something like this show that’s kind of been all of our baby for almost 20 years at this point. There have absolutely been times where we’ve had differences in opinion about how we should approach things or how we should structure an episode, or even how we want to think about the strategy for the show in the future. There have been differing opinions over time; that’s to be expected. It would be weird if we were all lockstep in our thinking all the time.

Eric: But see, and that makes the show better is having those different perspectives and opinions. We always hear each other out.

Laura: Yeah, for sure. And we have evolved a lot, because we all know that back in 2005, there were a lot of AOL instant messenger fights.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: I definitely participated in some of those.

Eric: Followed by salty away messages.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Usually, like, Green Day song lyrics.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “I’m going to make them think that I’m leaving my house, but really, I’m just sitting in my room being… mad.” I was about to say another word.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: That’s the other thing, too, I think. I remember being just so insecure as a late teenager.

Laura: We all were.

Eric: But so the hard feelings and everything come from that state of feeling triggered, and it’s not… you don’t know what you don’t know. But it’s been a great pleasure to have grown up and still get to do this.

Laura: Yeah, 100%.

Micah: With, I mean, creative differences, we all seem to – especially now at this stage, because we’re adults – land in a place where even if we’re coming at it from differing perspectives, we’re able to get to some kind of agreement. Thinking about our upcoming Chapter by Chapter – Order of the Phoenix, Half-Blood Prince – we just did those books not that long ago, and so we’re trying to figure out, creatively, how can we make it interesting for you all the listeners, in case you listened to those episodes when we first did them?

Andrew: That’s something we still need to talk about while we’re here, so maybe tomorrow morning. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, listeners, check back with us in a month. If we’re doing Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince, it means we worked it out.

Andrew: We are going to be doing it.

Eric: Well, I’m not sure…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Get out.

Eric: I’m just messing.

Andrew: We actually asked listeners on Patreon for feedback about that, and most of them said, “Stay the course. Just keep doing what you’re doing.”

Eric: Absolutely, absolutely.

Andrew: But we can explain that more later. Like I said, we still need to talk about a little bit because we want to shake it up in some way, so more to come on that front.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Christina said, “I have two questions: What piece of Harry Potter memorabilia/merch would you never sell/get rid of?” So let’s start with that question.

Eric: This is a funny one because I am jettisoning Harry Potter merchandise.

Andrew: Aw, yeah.

Eric: You guys know I brought two art prints with me that I just never had space for on my walls. One was this cool Niffler print I got at a convention, and the other was the wooden Hogwarts crest plaque from… Pottery Barn, maybe, it might have been? Not the cool version of Pottery Barn when it came out, but the ones before that. Maybe even Hot Topic. But the piece of merch I would never get rid of is my first boxset, which is how I read the books. It’s the paperback boxset of the first four books, and yeah, as long as I live… sorry, I may even request to be buried with it.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Aw, that’s really sweet.

Eric: I mean, because it’s small.

Andrew: [laughs] Because it’s small.

Eric: It would fit in my coffin next to the alto saxophone and the…

Laura: I definitely would get a lot of Harry Potter merch over the years, especially when I was in middle and high school, but it’s all notebooks and the kind of stuff that disintegrates over time, so I don’t have any of it anymore. Really, one of my most treasured possessions related to Harry Potter, very similar to you, Eric, is I still have my original hardbacks of the first three books, and they are falling apart. I don’t know if y’all remember when we were doing Chapter by Chapter for Sorcerer’s Stone, I sent you all pictures of mine, and it is literally in pieces. But I kind of felt like I have to pay homage to this thing that’s been such a big part of my life, and now that we’re restarting Chapter by Chapter, I need to read from the original book I read from when I was 11 years old, even though the pages are all falling out of it. [laughs] But I really do have a special place in my heart for those, and I think that I’ll keep them until they fully disintegrate.

Eric: Well, if the book is really messed up, it’s going to be a fun reread for you of not knowing what happens in any one chapter. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, for sure. My later editions are okay because, of course, those were coming out when I was older, so I was more delicate with them. The first three I got when I was 11, so I was not kind to them. I abused them heavily. [laughs] Read them so many times. I think the first three books I have read over more times than I’ve read any of the other books, so they’re definitely tattered, but it’s all out of love for sure.

Micah: Yeah, I’m trying to think… because there are definitely things in my mind that I would have been reluctant to get rid of, that maybe now I’m a little bit more willing to, that may or may not be signed by somebody who wrote the series.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Can I jump in right there and say…

Micah: Yeah, go ahead.

Andrew: Cancel me, but that is my most prized possession. I have a signed UK Half-Blood Prince, and I value that a lot.

Eric: But did she sign it for you when you handed it…?

Andrew: No, so Emerson had it signed when he went over to interview her for the Half-Blood Prince release, so that’s why it’s special, too; she signed it in her house.

Eric: That’s a very special…

Andrew: I also had to beg Emerson for a signed copy. [laughs]

Eric: Also, the fact that that happened when MuggleNet was… that speaks to your time on MuggleNet; that speaks to…

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: How you came by it is as important as the… yeah, I get that.

Andrew: So that would be my answer. But what was your other…?

Micah: Well, I was also thinking about the letter that she wrote to us.

Andrew: Oh, I forgot about that. I always forget about that.

Laura: Yeah, I was thinking about that, and I was like, “I won’t bring it up, but somebody else is probably going to bring it up.” Because it was honestly… I know it was a point of contention for a minute, because everyone was like, “Why aren’t we passing the letter around?” And I was selfishly like, “No!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Here’s an admission!

Laura: I managed the PO Box. I dealt with it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Laura: And I was the one who handled all of the mailing and writing the letter, and we sent her a very nice little charm bracelet, by the way.

Andrew: That you paid for.

Laura: Yeah, 100%. And so I was like, “No, this is mine.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: That is so funny.

Laura: But obviously, I’m 35 now, but I think at the time there was part of me that was like, “I don’t have any signed memorabilia like that,” so I was being like, “You know what? I’m going to hang on to this, and if they ever want to come by and see it, they can.”

Andrew: “Come visit me if you want to take a look.” It’s like we’re visiting a museum.

Laura: But I mean, to be honest with you, I do feel conflicted about it now.

Andrew: Can I have the letter for a little bit?

Laura: Yeah, you can have it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I thought Micah had it. Micah, what letter do you have?

Micah: You sent copies, probably, or you scanned it and sent it to everybody.

Andrew: Ohh.

Eric: Because it was really meaningful to me the other… probably a month ago Micah said, “Hey, I just want to let you know I’m no longer displaying that letter.”

Micah: Oh, yeah. I’d had it framed.

Eric: “The person who wrote that to us is not the same as the person she is now,” and that meant a lot to me, Micah, specifically, just to receive that, because it is an acknowledgement that things have happened. But I am looking to unload my two signed copies of Casual Vacancy, actually.

Andrew: I would take one.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: So do I suck for wanting the letter now?

Eric and Micah: No.

Andrew: Okay, I would just like to see… I don’t think I’ve actually seen the real copy IRL.

Eric: I’m not in the letter. Yeah, I was away in New Zealand at the time, so I’m not one of the names on it.

Laura: I don’t think any of y’all have seen it in person. But yeah, honestly, at this point, it’s sitting in a drawer, honestly. Again, very similar to Micah, I was like, “I don’t know how I feel about just having this out.”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and for the record, I wouldn’t want it forever. I would just want it for, I don’t know, a couple weeks would be cool. Show Pat. Show some friends.

Eric: It’s a personal connection. All of our answers are that piece that were personal. It’s not… it’s our memorabilia as much as it is Harry Potter memorabilia. It’s an achievement.

Laura: Yeah, for sure. But yeah, I mean, we can do a custody agreement if you want. [laughs]

Micah: So two things come to mind. The first is I have a MinaLima print of the Daily Prophet “Mass breakout from Azkaban” that I have framed.

Andrew: That’s cool.

Micah: The other would be one of our Podcast Awards.

Eric: That’s another one, yeah.

Micah: From 2006.

Andrew: Yeah. Just to circle back on the “I don’t want to display J.K. Rowling stuff anymore,” I had a printed canvas of that tweet that she did about “Wormtaily, avoid Hypable.”

Eric: Oh, “Wormtaily,” yeah, yeah.

Andrew: And I had it hanging in my office at my current home for the longest time, and then just sitting at my desk, I’d see it there, and I was like, “You know what? That just annoys me every time I look at it now.”

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Just because of her specifically. I think the whole ordeal was hilarious, but I was like, “I don’t want that hourly reminder of her,” so I took it down.

Eric: She has permanently spoiled her and Twitter for me.

Andrew: So let’s get to part two of Christina’s question. She said, “In another timeline, what US city do you think the four of you would enjoy all living in at the same time?” That’s a fun question.

Laura: Can you imagine how different life would be if we all lived in the same city? First of all, we would probably record together way more than we do.

Andrew: That would be amazing.

Eric: We would have a bunker and it would be…

Andrew: A total studio.

Laura: Yeah, that would be amazing.

Eric: There would be a Micah chair…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Everyone would have a Micah chair.

Eric: We would all have a Micah chair.

Andrew: I would podcast from a Micah bed.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: What is that like?

Andrew: I don’t know. It’s heart-shaped.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Goat-shaped.

Eric: What city do we think we would enjoy? So look, there’s winter people; there’s beach people. Actually, I don’t think there’s any winter people. I don’t think they exist. But what city do we think? Because I’ve spent some time in Nevada; I think that the Vegas area…

Andrew: Oh. I was going to meet you guys in the middle. I was going to say Austin, Texas.

Laura: I love Austin.

Eric: I can’t vouch for it myself.

Andrew: It’s warm. It’s a trendy city.

Micah: I’ve been a couple times.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: New Orleans.

Andrew: New Orleans would be fun.

Laura: Oh, God. Love New Orleans.

Micah: It’s one of my favorite cities to go to.

Laura: That would be fun. The only thing that is a knock against Austin and New Orleans is the humidity. But to be honest, where I live now is super humid, so it wouldn’t stop me. But there is part of… I really, personally, really like any kind of fall weather, or anywhere where it’s 70 degrees year round, and breezy and sunny.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: Like today.

Laura: Yeah, today is gorgeous.

Andrew: Oh, it was perfect today in DC. No humidity, mid 70s, a light wind. It was lovely.

Micah: Is nobody going to offer up London?

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] I think we want to stay in America, don’t we? I don’t think we can get all four of us…

Micah: Do we have to?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: That’s hilarious.

Andrew: Well, could we get all four of us to go to England? Or Europe?

Eric: Ask us again in a month. Christina says US city, so that was the question. We were just…

Andrew: Well, we’re in agreement about somewhere in the southern half of the US, it sounds like.

Eric: But maybe just. Again, Nevada, I think is…

Andrew: I mean, my dream… I love California to death, so I’d move back to California in a heartbeat if money were no object.

Eric: Got a question from Carly, who says, “I’m super curious, how do y’all take your coffee?” I don’t.

Andrew: That’s a fun question.

Laura: Oh.

Eric: I don’t.

Andrew: But Eric drinks Monster.

Eric: Monster is my coffee.

Andrew: Which I find a little… it’s unhealthy.

Eric: Well, it’s Monster Ultra. There’s zero… there’s maybe ten calories.

Andrew: [laughs] It’s Monster Ultra, okay.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I drink my coffee black; I recently switched to this over the last year. And there was a time I would be that person putting sugar and cream in it, then I stopped putting Splenda in it. It was difficult for a few weeks, and I never looked back. And then within the last year, stopped putting oat milk in. Difficult for a few weeks, and never looked back. I love getting the notes of the coffee now, so yeah.

Micah: I’m with Andrew.

Andrew: Black coffee?

Eric: Black coffee!

Andrew: We’re so sophisticated.

Micah: Every now and then I’ll throw some creamer in it, but mostly black.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Yeah. I like a splash of coconut milk in mine, but that’s it. I don’t…

Andrew: Did you just fall out of a coconut tree?

Laura: Maybe. We’ll find out when we watch the DNC later.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Eric? Oh, and Eric doesn’t. Okay. All right, that’s easy enough.

Eric: I did have Earl Grey tea today, though. You know those tureens of the hot water?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, I got some of those.

Eric: I made myself some Earl Grey. It was really delicious.

Laura: There you go.

Andrew: I like a chamomile or a decaf minty type of tea, peppermint.

Eric: Mint tea is delicious.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: Eleanor wants to know, “I’d love to know more about the podcasting process. How do you all prep? Do you have any routines or superstitions you have to follow?”

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: I love the way that question is worded.

Eric: It’s a great question for my unsatisfactory answer. Yeah, my superstition is I have to turn off the air conditioning.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Don’t feel like you have to do that, though.

Eric: My routine is… oh, I do, because I don’t want it to pick up on the audio recording. But yeah, I’m trying to think on that.

Andrew: Well, in terms of our planning process, so currently these three plan the Chapter by Chapter discussions, but we take turns with that. So it’ll be Laura’s week, Eric’s week, Micah’s week. And then once one of us gets the doc together for the chapter, whatever episode we’re doing, then the rest of us start adding our own notes, and we use Google Docs to collaborate so we can all edit it in real time. And yeah, so we turn the episodes around in 3-4 days, in terms of creation of Google Doc to actually recording, typically.

Eric: It’s a really well-honed…

Andrew: So that’s the bare bones. And then we have another Google Doc with our schedule; this is who’s doing this week, this is the chapter we’re doing, this is when the episode’s being recorded and when it’s coming out, if we’re going to have a guest on that episode. So yeah, those are the bare bones.

Laura: Yeah, for sure. And then just in terms of… I just love the question about superstitions. I don’t know if I have any superstitions, but I definitely have a bit of a pre-show ritual.

Andrew: Tell us about that.

Laura: I don’t know if y’all do. So first of all, I’ve talked about this before, but I am a beverage gremlin, so at all times, I usually have three beverages near me and at my desk when we’re doing the show. So it’s usually coffee, Diet Coke, and water, is usually the combination.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So I have to make sure I have that, I have to make sure that I’ve eaten a little snacky right before we start, and I make sure that I get my lighting right. So I have hue lights set up in our office so that I can have my background be awash in color for the stream, and I usually try to theme the lights. I don’t know if y’all have ever noticed, but I do change up the color themes that I use week to week, and I usually try to associate it with something that we’re going to be talking about. But I always do a quick cam check before I hop on to make sure the lighting is right, because as you all know, sometimes on camera things might look better in person and might not pick up as well on the camera. So I usually have to do a cam check, and I usually do a mic check before I hop on too. So that’s my show prep.

Andrew: I have a little pre-show snack. I have a Celsius energy drink; that’s been a newer obsession of mine. Got to try to pee before the pod, because we do 90 minutes to two hours, especially if we have a bonus MuggleCast. So yeah, no superstitions, but just making… because we also record at 5:00 p.m. Pacific, I eat dinner early, so that’s basically my dinner time. Sometimes I’ll eat dinner before MuggleCast, depending on how hungry I am.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: So yeah, nothing crazy, just making sure I have water, some energy in me. Maybe a little snack, which I love pretzel crisps and powdered peanut butter. What’s that called again? PB Fit. Love that stuff.

Eric: Ohh.

Laura: That stuff is so good.

Micah: No real superstitions either. I would say one thing I do have to do most of the time is ever since we started doing video, and I have the bookcase as the backdrop, I do have to move a piece of furniture to be the desk, to have the microphone and the computer set up on. So there’s not normally that setup in my room; I have to set it up each week. So I’m trying to find a better solution, but I have to go through that. And then similar to you, Laura, making sure everything is framed properly and set up.

Eric: I actually… yeah, I have three light sources on me that I have to set up. It’s a special ring light, and then another desk lamp, and then the overhead light sometimes depending on the glare. Depending if there’s sunlight coming in, twist the blinds.

Micah: Yeah, it’s the AC thing for me, too, because it’s a window unit, so it’d make a sh…

Eric: Yeah, too much.

Micah: I was going to say something. A lot of noise. And I have to tell the birds to shut up too.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Although, you like them sometimes.

Andrew: Sometimes it’s peaceful.

Laura: They’re very peaceful.

Andrew: I’m mixed. I’m mixed on it. Sometimes I’m like, “Do people want to hear the birds?” Listeners, let us know. Do you want to hear Micah’s birds in the background?

Laura: Yeah, give us your feedback.

Andrew: Micah’s neighbors.

Micah: They’re not my birds.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Your bird neighbors.

Eric: You know they would stop coming by if you stopped feeding them, Micah.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Ryan P. said, “Thanks for doing this. Looking back over your 19 years of doing MuggleCast, what’s one decision you wish you made differently, and why?”

Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: Honestly, I would just say I wish we started… sorry, this is going to be a business-y answer, but monetizing the show. The show was really, really big when we started; I was actually telling June this earlier today.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: It was huge, and everybody knew MuggleCast. We were not making a dime off of it, but we also did not know how to make money off of it, so it just would have been nice to be monetizing it from the start, just to build that base.

Eric: Well, to be clear, I think people were making money off of our show, but it wasn’t us.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes.

Laura: Fair enough.

Eric: For the first many years, increased web traffic, increased everything traffic.

Andrew: Yeah, we got a little played, but…

Laura: We were young.

Andrew: Yeah, so maybe that’s what we would change.

Eric: Understanding time is value. This is along similar lines: I have very few regrets about any of this that we did on MuggleCast and the whole trajectory of everything, but if we had gotten on YouTube right when it started…

Andrew: Oh, that’s a good one.

Eric: … we really could have had an opportunity to be some of the biggest OG most YouTube accounts now. If we had figured it out, if we had our finger on the pulse of it, because I know that we would have brought the same production quality to that as we do to our show, and so I do wonder what could have been if there was also a YouTube component 15 years ago.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good one.

Laura: Well, we are trying to catch up on that now, so if you do follow us on YouTube, you should check us out there; we’re MuggleCast. And if you haven’t seen us on YouTube, you should look it up. We’re putting up full video episodes now.

Andrew: Yeah. But yeah, like Eric said, not really any regrets. We’re really proud. If you go back and listen to Episode 1, it doesn’t sound good. The first year or two don’t sound good, but that’s where podcasting was at the time, and especially for kids.

Eric: It’s amazing we pulled it off.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, it is.

Eric: You look at the tech we were using, the Internet connection…

Andrew: And we all had school at the same time.

Laura: Do you remember my first episode? I sounded like I was podcasting from the bottom of a trash can.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: The audio quality was so bad, and that was after you ran filters on it to make it a little bit better.

Andrew: Was I even running filters on it? I don’t know. [laughs]

Laura: I mean, I remember you said you did something, and you were like, “Yeah, it’ll be fine,” and then I heard the episode, and I was like, “Oh my God, I sound like I am literally inside of the Tin Man talking to everybody.” [laughs]

Andrew: Maybe I said that just to make you feel better.

Laura: You probably did.

Andrew: [in a high-pitched voice] “Don’t worry, Laura! It’s going to be okay!”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, “It’s going to be great!”

Andrew: My parents are like, “Do your homework! Don’t work on that whatever you’re doing.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh my goodness.

[Ad break]

Micah: Next up, Melissa wants to know, “If you went karaoke-ing, who would go first and what song would be sung?”

Eric: I think I would go first for no other reason than I have songs prepared. I know which ones I like. I love karaoke. I would immediately go and do… I like to start things off with the Georgia Satellites’ “Keep Your Hands to Yourself.” It’s a bop. I usually wear a cowboy hat out when I go and do it, and it gets me in the mood. So I would just… you guys would be poring over the song list and thinking it over twice, and I’m telling you, that’s my go-to, so I’d just go be doing it.

Laura: Yeah. It’s funny you say that because when I saw this question, I also thought… I didn’t know what song you would pick, but I was like, “Oh, Eric, 100%.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, I’d like to get the audience roused up too, if it’s the start of the night. Andrew and I were walking to dinner, and we saw that there’s a place that has karaoke across the street.

Laura: Oh, okay.

Eric: But it’s only on Thursday evenings, and we all fly out or will not…

Laura: Oh, we’re not going to be here.

Eric: We’ll be otherwise indisposed.

Micah: Dang. [laughs]

Eric: What were you going to say, Micah?

Micah: You did cosplay karaoke in Portland.

Eric: That’s right! That’s right, yeah, there was a whole… it was a session for three days where fans would come in in various cosplay and sing a song that was related to whatever they were doing.

Andrew: Madeline said, “Are you planning another meetup anytime in the future?” I’m sure we will do another meetup.

Eric: You guys didn’t say what your karaoke songs were going to be.

Andrew: Oh, they just said the first. Who will go first and what songs, that’s why.

Eric: But what songs would you guys sing?

Micah: Bruuuuce…

Laura: I’m not really big into karaoke.

Andrew: No.

Eric: Wow. Okay, I guess I’m going to do them all. I’m going to do them all. It’s cool.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s fine.

Micah: This is such an easy one, but “Piano Man,” because I feel like everybody can sing along.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: I would love for you to sing that.

Andrew: Madeline said, “Are you planning another meetup anytime in the future?” I guaranteed yes. We don’t have details, but we will. And certainly this one and the others have went really, really well, so we’re definitely interested. Just a matter of the timing and getting us together and all that.

Eric: Yeah, and Madeline is somebody who said earlier that she had tried to actually make this one and couldn’t at the last minute.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: So we’re sorry, Madeline, but yes, we’ll be back.

Andrew: One thing the four of us are talking about doing, too, is maybe trying to get together once a year, not necessarily around a conference, but just to work on stuff together, work on our pods together IRL. So if/when we do that in the future, I’m sure that would come with a meetup in whatever city we’re in.

Laura: Yeah, for sure.

Eric: You guys are really good at letting us know that we are loved by showing up to these things.

Laura: Seriously.

Andrew: For a second I couldn’t tell if you were talking about the listeners or us sitting here.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, also, you let me know I’m loved. No, we have a state of flow that I think is really, really interesting to tap more into. Mayelin says, “If you guys could erase your memory and experience something from the HP era for the first time, what would it be?”

Andrew: When Rowling took Steve Vander Ark to court, that was a really weird story. Steve Vander Ark founded the Harry Potter Lexicon, and he tried to publish a book version, and Rowling showed up in court against Steve Vander Ark for that. I mean, he had an amazing site, still does, and the book was an excellent piece of work. He eventually released it as they jumped through the legal hurdles they needed, but just… Rowling was in court crying over this book, literally crying over this book being published, and then she had also said they have an encyclopedia ready to go, and the Harry Potter Lexicon impacts her encyclopedia. That book never got released, the Harry Potter encyclopedia. It just… the whole thing was slimy, taking a fansite to court over that type of book.

Laura: Yeah. What’s funny, though, is we took her side at the time.

Andrew: You know what? That is a good point.

Laura: We definitely did, and Eric, you were the only one who didn’t.

Eric: But at the same time, looking back and thinking, “Well, yeah, right,” what you’re saying; there was no encyclopedia then in the end, or we still don’t have it. The things that had to be proven… and there were quotes of J.K. Rowling herself saying that she used the Lexicon to help remember things while writing the books. And I did end up buying that book when it came out, after the legal hurdles, like you said. But yeah, that was a dark time to see that, because it divided the fans, because it was literally the creator versus the fans, and it was maybe the first moment of moments since where that was the dynamic, and that felt strange and it felt difficult for us.

Andrew: I’ve done a total 180 on that. I forgot – thanks for checking me – that I was Team Rowling at the time.

Eric: But I mean, she could do no wrong. She’d given us this world, etc., etc. I wouldn’t say we were super naive; I just think that… but so you’re saying you would just choose to forget that it happened?

Andrew: Yeah, well, and I wouldn’t be on Team Rowling in hindsight.

Micah: So if it happened again.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, also, we have to remember what we knew at the time, and at least from what I recall, the way that the case was portrayed was you had someone who had an online lexicon that was just a work of love, and had even received a fansite award from J.K. Rowling herself, but I didn’t think she had a problem with that. I think what she had a problem with was him publishing that and making money off of it, because there was no original interpretation of the work, and I think that was really the crux of the argument.

Micah: Well, it wasn’t all that dissimilar – although she didn’t take legal action against Emerson for What Will Happen in Harry Potter 7 – because she has literally opened her doors of her home to have him come in, and then turn around and write a book about what potentially could happen in the seventh book, to her, at least from what we heard, felt like a betrayal of some on some level.

Eric: It’s an interesting dynamic, for sure.

Laura: But I do think there’s a difference in that the What Will Happen book was not just an encyclopedia; it was theories and predictions.

Micah: Correct.

Eric: Yeah, it was transformative, which is one of the things you have to prove.

Micah: And this is me playing devil’s advocate, but what’s the difference between that and what we do? Or what we were doing at the time; we were theorizing. Now, we weren’t making money off of those theories. The book was.

Eric: And that’s what matters. What I think is… the RDR books and J.K. Rowling trial was exactly… it happened… that’s exactly how copyright works, is you need to have legal precedent, and there just wasn’t legal precedent for something like that that had grown up online and was going to be published before. So they needed to do the crying on the stand, they needed to do the claims that may seem dubious in retrospect, because however that netted out then affected it – not just Harry Potter books, but every book being made since.

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: So the eventual version of the Lexicon that I have printed out is better for it, I think, in the end. It’s actually much more…

Micah: I mean, I love we’re having this debate again, because you could point to websites. Steve was making money off his website, and how much did fansites make?

Andrew: Well, it’s just a different medium. It comes down to the medium, though, too. If Rowling was doing a podcast and then we were just repurposing her podcast, she might try to sue us maybe? I’m not a legal expert by any stretch of the imagination.

Micah: Or was the issue that the website was free, anybody can go to it…?

Andrew: Exactly, yeah. The book… yeah, and what…? [sighs] I see your point about the… I just… this is maybe irrelevant, but I don’t seem to even remember the Harry Potter Lexicon having ads on the website.

Eric: No, it was a very dry, very clean…

Andrew: I remember it being a very clean website, yeah.

Eric: Everyone else was having the ads.

Andrew: And I think she was also thinking it was… she was trying to set that legal precedent so other people wouldn’t release books or encyclopedias.

Eric: Yeah, there was a very defense… yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. I would erase my memory of reading, but which book? The third one.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: To experience that again?

Eric: That’s what I would do, to experience it again.

Andrew: Ohh, I see.

Eric: That’s the thing, if you could erase your experience from the HP era and do something again for the first time, it would be reading that book, wouldn’t it? And it would be the third one or the fourth one.

Andrew: I have to admit, I misread the question.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I just thought it was erasing a memory from the fandom, and that’s it. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, God. Well, who wrote the series, maybe, would be great these days?

Laura: I’ve got to say Deathly Hallows release in London at Waterstones.

Andrew: Oh, that was amazing, yeah.

Laura: That was incredible. And I mean… I don’t know.

Eric: That whole thing.

Andrew: Any midnight release party was really special.

Laura: Yeah, it really was.

Micah: I would say maybe walking in through the brick walls into Diagon Alley.

Eric: Diagon Alley theme park?

Micah: In Orlando.

Laura: Yeah, that’s cool.

Eric: That hits so hard every time it happens. So here’s an interesting one: We’ve been in each other’s homes, sort of, probably not all in person, but Craig says, “For each of you: If you had to swap homes with one other MuggleCast host for a month…” So we’re moving in!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “Who would you choose, and why?” Listen, I’ve already let the cat out of the bag. I like Nevada.

Andrew: I got a party house, baby. Where am I going, though?

Micah: Do you get Pat?

Andrew: Yeah, you get Pat for a month.

Eric: You know Chicago. You’re familiar with Chicago. I got a nice place.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I was going to say I haven’t been to any three of your current places, so I want to go to all three to experience.

Laura: Oh, I see.

Andrew: But I’ll pick Chicago because I want to…

Eric: Let’s rotate.

Andrew: [laughs] Everybody right now, just shift one seat and that’s the house you’re going to.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: No, I would pick yours because I want to go back to Chicago.

Eric: And you’d go back to all the places you knew.

Andrew: I want to change your set around too. I would change your set around.

Eric: Oh, that would be really…

Andrew: I would add something to the set and see if you would notice.

Laura: I thought you were about to give Eric some feedback on their set.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Is something coming out now that we didn’t know you were unhappy about with the setup?

Andrew: No, no, I just think it’d be fun to mess.

Eric: Yeah, I agree.

Laura: Okay, Gabriella says, “Hi, we know Laura speaks Spanish.” Si. “Have you ever read books in other languages? Do the other hosts know any other languages?” Yeah, so I’ve actually read some of the Harry Potter books in Spanish, and that’s… I don’t know. I mainly was doing it at the time to just get practice, especially because it was two things that I loved, and so it felt like I can really kill two birds with one stone here. I did read To Kill a Mockingbird in Spanish, and that was really cool. But outside of that, I don’t have anything recent. But do any of y’all speak other languages for Gabriella?

Andrew: No.

Laura: Wow. Shame. [laughs] I’m kidding.

Andrew: I took Spanish classes in high school. I did really badly, I regret. I didn’t throw myself into it like I should have.

Laura: Porque?

Andrew: Huh?

Laura: Porque?

Andrew: What?

Eric: Isn’t that “Why?”

Andrew: I’m just kidding.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Because… I don’t know, I was a bad student. That’s it.

Micah: I took seven years of French…

Laura: That’s right.

Micah: … so I do have a couple of the Harry Potter books in French. I have not tried to do that.

Eric: So you haven’t read about the… yeah.

Micah: I don’t think I’d be able to speak anywhere close to fluently, but I was in Paris earlier this year and I could understand certain things, pick up certain things.

Laura: That makes sense.

Eric: That’s cool. It’s a completely different experience. I regret not being fluent in a different language, just to have that experience, something that would be so familiar but in a new light, in a new way, the way the sentences are constructed is the way the world is built. So that’d be really cool.

Andrew: Okay, getting into the end of our questions here, Elizabeth said, “If you could switch lives with one of the Harry Potter characters, who would it be and why?” Not to pigeonhole myself too much, but Dumbledore! That would be so cool.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Have that office, take care of the day to day needs of the school, everybody’s coming to you… McGonagall, Snape, the DADA teacher of the year…

Eric: You would be a great Headmaster of Hogwarts, but I love the idea – because the question is “Which of the HP characters would you switch lives with?” – that we would get Dumbledore as a cohost.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That would actually be pretty cool.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Welcome to MuggleCast.” I should try to do a whole episode as Dumbledore.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That would be really difficult.

Eric: Oh my God, you guys, it finally happened. Elizabeth predicted this. Andrew and Dumbledore have switched lives.

Andrew: How about y’all?

Laura: It’s tough because some of these characters are out here having hard lives.

Eric: They’ve been through hell.

Laura: I don’t know if I want to switch with them. [laughs]

Eric: Well, my go-to would be Sirius; I’m like, “No, no, he suffered and then died.”

Laura: No, that doesn’t end well.

Andrew: Let’s say if it’s just for a day, though, maybe?

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: Elizabeth didn’t say that, but maybe just switch…

Eric: We get to pick a day?

Andrew: Take a walk in their shoes for a day. Experience…

Eric: Tonks. She’s freaking cool.

Laura: She is really cool. I think I would want to switch with… not necessarily Ron, but someone like Ron, who grew up in the wizarding world. I think it would be really cool to…

Eric: Like Ginny? [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, okay, Ginny. Unfortunately, I don’t feel like we get enough good on-page time with her in these books; it’s one of my big criticisms. But yeah, it would be cool to do that and to be able to recall memories from childhood of growing up in the wizarding world.

Eric: Oh, that would be… and at the Burrow? That would be so amazing.

Laura: Think about how magical being a kid is anyway. That would be cool. I would love that. What about you, Micah?

Micah: You said for one day?

Andrew: Yeah, let’s say for one day.

Micah: Arthur.

Eric: Yeah. He just has a really corporate government job. You’d go to work.

Micah: But he doesn’t, at the same time.

Andrew: It’s a fun one.

Micah: Yeah, he’s quirky. Good family man.

Andrew: Kelsey said, “Which one of you would make the best Headmaster of Hogwarts and why? Who would be the most fun professor?”

Eric: Well, we just established that Andrew would be a really awesome Dumbledore stand-in.

Andrew: No, I… would I really be? I’m voting Laura.

Laura: For Headmaster?

Andrew: Headmistress of Hogwarts, yeah.

Laura: I don’t know. I think I’d be a better professor, to be honest with you.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Think about it. You manage a podcasting business; you really do take the lead in a lot of regards, and you have to manage a lot of different people and personalities.

Andrew: It’s true, I do.

Laura: So I’m not trying to toot your horn too much here, but… [laughs]

Andrew: No, no, okay. Fine, I’ll take the gig.

Eric: It wouldn’t be hard to do Dumbledore’s job better than Dumbledore, too, in many key areas.

Andrew: Ouch.

Laura: Ooh!

Eric: What? What?

Laura: I love it. I would love to be McGonagall to your Dumbledore. That would be so cute.

Andrew: [in a high-pitched voice] Oh my God!

Eric: I would love to be a professor of something.

Laura: Honestly, the two of you would be great. I feel like we would all fit in as Hogwarts staff because of how quirky we are. [laughs]

Eric: Yes. 100%.

Andrew: Micah would be the teacher that you want to go to because he’s just screwing off in class all the time.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: He’s the “We’re watching a video in class this week” teacher.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: We have the four Heads of House right here.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, there we go.

Eric: Oh, I love that.

Laura: We’d have to duke it out over Ravenclaw, though.

Andrew: Yeah, which one of you is going to take Ravenclaw?

Eric: Well, that’s kind of cheap, though, in a good way, because both Flitwick and McGonagall were heavy Ravenclaw, heavy Gryffindor. They were both kind of a Hatstall, basically, so they’re interchangeable.

Laura: True.

Micah: I’ll take Gryffindor. It’s fine.

Andrew: Okay, there you go.

Laura: Thank you for your sacrifice.

Micah: Convert them all to Ravenclaw. [laughs]

Laura: There you go. No more Gryffindors. Let’s see… Eleanor wants to know, “If you had to pick a Harry Potter book to rewrite, which one would you rewrite, and why? You’re not allowed to nominate Cursed Child; only the core series.” So who’s going to say Goblet of Fire because it was rushed? [laughs]

Andrew: I was going to say, it’s too easy to say Goblet of Fire, but some areas needed to be rewritten and literally were. [laughs] When the Priori Incantatem

Laura: So I have what is kind of an unpopular opinion here; I recognize this. I wouldn’t rewrite the entire book, but I really do think portions of Order of the Phoenix could have been tightened up. I have long felt that Order of the Phoenix was about 50 pages longer than it needed to be.

Eric: Only 50.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, I’m being conservative, maybe, with that estimate, but it just felt like there… particularly with some of the areas of Harry’s angst, felt like the same point could have been driven across without seeing quite so much of it.

Eric: It is pretty extreme.

Laura: Yeah. I get it; he was going through a lot, but…

Micah: Deathly Hallows – similar to you, Laura – with the camping portion, so I’m thinking certain parts could have been tightened up. Honestly, I don’t even remember a whole lot about the book. [laughs]

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: I’m looking forward to rereading it. I feel the same way.

Micah: And that should say something in and of itself.

Andrew: When was the last time you read it? Maybe is that the problem?

Micah: Possibly.

Eric: No, Deathly Hallows was the one that I have for this. I would rewrite all of it. I had a few issues from day one on it. I didn’t think Voldemort was as compelling a villain as he had been set up to be, because Book 6 goes so hard on that, and in the end, he makes a lot of mistakes, but that’s what he also has to do, because Harry is such a bad student that it’s not like he’s actually going to prepare for Voldemort. This is such… it seems so arrogant to say I could write that book better.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It hurts me how arrogant that sounds, but if I could rewrite it, I would write it. I would do it.

Andrew: I’m going to kind of take this a different direction and say I would rewrite either Book 1 or 2 just to make it longer. They’re so simple when you read them back now, and we were burning through three chapters at a time in Chapter by Chapter. What if these books got more dense, in a good way?

Eric: I love that idea, where it’s like, there’s so much room to play in.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Catherine wants to know, “Are there any alternate plot lines you wish would have happened in the series? Like theories you had that didn’t pan out? I know Laura briefly mentioned the veil in a 2023 episode.”

Laura: Y’all, I’m still so salty that the Department of Mysteries never came back. I’ve talked about that ad nauseam; I don’t need to go into it anymore. It genuinely upsets me, [laughs] so I’ll let y’all fill this in.

Eric: I would have liked if James Potter was disguised as Remus Lupin, and that Remus had died. That would have been a hell of a twist. It would have happened a book before Mad-Eye Moody was revealed to be a different character the whole year, and so it would have been… there was energy of a DADA professor being somebody entirely different for the entire year and then being revealed otherwise. We’ve mentioned it; we’ve covered it on a crackpot theory episode, etc., etc., but the idea that James would have maybe still been alive somehow is still a very titillating one to me.

Andrew: I don’t really have an answer for this one. I know there’s moments on MuggleCast where we’re talking and exploring different plot points, and like, “Oh, it would have been nice if it went this way,” but I can’t think of anything off the top of my head.

Eric: Any other shipping you would have done instead?

Andrew: Shipping?

Eric: Yeah, shipping. People who didn’t get together that you think should have.

Andrew: Honestly, sorry for the bland answer, but I never came to Harry Potter for the romance. [laughs]

Eric: I respect the hell out of you for that! I think that’s valid too.

Andrew: I never cared about the shipping, really.

Eric: Look, a lot of them are children.

Andrew: Well, there’s that, too, yeah.

Laura: But I mean, I will say I think it depends on when you were reading it, but I was 14 when Order of the Phoenix came out, and I was fully convinced that we were being set up for Harry/Luna as a ship. And at the time, I was really excited about that, because I was like, “Luna is a social outcast; I kind of feel like a social outcast…” She made me feel very…

Eric: Could you get the hero?

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely, 100%.

Laura: Well, and then also the recognition that the hero in this book is not, I think, the strapping, devastatingly handsome representation of a hero that we would typically get in other series. Harry is flawed and imperfect too, so that’s what I liked about it. So it made me feel seen. It made me feel disappointed when we didn’t get that. So if I were to pick an alternate ship, it would definitely be Harry/Luna.

Micah: There were a couple of… these are random theories, but people were hot on Mark Evans for a while, if there was going to be any relation to Harry. And then… what was the…? Oh, I wanted more out of the gum wrappers that Neville’s mom gave to him.

Andrew: Yeah, that was a good one.

Laura: Oh, gosh, there were so many… talk about the plot point that went nowhere, that launched a thousand ships.

Eric: It should have. It should have gone somewhere.

Laura: It really should have. Didn’t we theorize that Neville’s parents were passing him coded messages via those gum wrappers, and that it was going to come out that yes, they were still driven to insanity by Bellatrix and co., but there was still some retention of who they were, and they were trying to communicate with Neville?

Eric: It was in The Ultimate Unofficial Guide, and it’s still my favorite of all those theories, that they were locked in and they couldn’t communicate correctly except through Neville, and that Neville would have to fix it or save them.

Andrew: I feel like MuggleNet used to have a page where they had some stuff like that, or maybe there’s a Reddit thread or something. Just old theories that went nowhere.

Micah: There’s the whole editorial section that used to explore theories.

Andrew: Right, explores that type of stuff. In terms of ships, just to circle back on that really quick, Dramione. I would get behind that one.

Eric: That would have been interesting, yeah, definitely. Draco did have a, I think, very satisfying redemptive arc. I think he’s unique in… or very few people really had that, what he had. But the Dramione thing really would have been an interesting angle, because again, they are academically similar.

Andrew: Exactly, and they’re both… there was that coffee shop fanfiction. I’m forgetting the name of it, but I read several chapters for that fanfiction episode that we did, and it was really compelling. I was into it.

Micah: Was there a deleted…? It wasn’t a deleted scene, but there was a scene that was shot where Draco tossed Harry his wand?

Laura: That’s right.

Andrew: Oh yeah, yep. Part 2.

Micah: In the… right after he jumps out of Hagrid’s arms.

Andrew: Yeah, and you see it in behind-the scenes footage, during one of the featurettes or the documentary making of series. Yeah. All right, two more questions here. Rachel said, “If you could resurrect one character from the series, who would it be?” Lavender Brown, baby.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I’m assuming she was dead. I want her back.

Eric: Oh, never give up hope.

Andrew: I’ve lost so much sleep over Lavender.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: Dobby.

Andrew: Oh, that’s a good one.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I was going to say Dobby, but I don’t want us to be too much on the same page about it. I would say Tonks. I really regret that Tonks, she’s such a cool character, but she was ultimately set up to be another sacrificial mother figure.

Eric: To yeah, suffer and die.

Laura: Yeah, and there was clearly so much there with her character that could have been fleshed out, but it ultimately just got boiled down to motherhood and the mother’s sacrifice, which is obviously really important and a key full circle moment for the books, but I still think she could have been a more fleshed-out character.

Eric: If we got a Sirius Black resurrection – because there seemed to be that open-ended “Ooh, is there something to the veil? Can you hear the voices?” – we would have gotten the Department of Mysteries back, and so kind of hopping on what you were saying, Laura, about your ideal alternate time. Yeah, I would choose for Sirius to be back; I think that’s who I would go… or Hedwig, because Hedwig did not deserve…

Andrew: So I was going to say a more serious answer is Hedwig, and I remember Rowling at the time said it marked the end of Harry’s childhood, but I don’t think Hedwig needed to die to symbolize that. [laughs] Seems a little unnecessary.

Eric: I think she got a bit carried away, honestly.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean, I understand the symbolism of what she was doing because Hagrid got Hedwig for Harry; Hagrid was transporting Harry when that whole sky battle happened that resulted in Harry losing Hedwig. I understand the significance of why she did it, but man, that was, what, five chapters into the book?

Andrew: Yeah, it was very early.

Laura: And I remember when we were reading it on launch night, we were just like, “Augh!” I think y’all got to it before I did, but I heard each one of you gasp, and I was like, “Oh no, already?”

Andrew: Uh-oh.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Who wants to take the final question?

Eric: Geoff has said to us, “If you were running for office in the wizarding world, who would be your ideal running mate?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I guess besides each other, because that would be cool. That would be really cool.

Andrew: I think it’s cooler to run with a wizarding world character. No offense.

Eric: There’s been some love for Tonks, but I want to go all in on that by… but Book 5 Tonks, where she’s just like, “Wotcher, Harry.” She’s really quirky and stuff. I would make a campaign based around how weird Tonks would be, and I would be; we’d lean into all the wacky stuff in the wizarding world. Be like, “We need to fix the stuff that needs to be fixed, but we’re just going to have fun with it.” Even if we couldn’t win, we would have a heck of a campaign. So Tonks and me for Ministers of Magic.

Laura: Neville.

Andrew: I would go with… oh.

Micah: That’s a good one.

Laura: I would run with Neville.

Eric: That’s really sweet.

Andrew: Don’t you think he’d get nervous up on stage? I guess he comes into his own by the end, but…

Laura: Yeah, of course he would, but I think the whole point of Neville being in Gryffindor that we see at the end of the series is that he had it in him all along. And I think beheading Voldemort’s last Horcrux probably gave him a little bit of… a bump in confidence, so I think he’d be okay.

Andrew: I’m going to run with Umbridge.

Laura: Oh, God.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I really like what she stands for. I’m kidding.

Eric: And thank you for listening to MuggleCast…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: No, I think I’d run… I think Hermione.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: She’s fun. She’s smart. She can turn on the humor when she wants or needs to. She’s got it all for a politician.

Eric: As a book reader, you know that she becomes the Minister for Magic, so you would win.

Andrew and Laura: Right.

Laura: Would you still want her at the top of the ticket? Would you want to be the vice…?

Eric: Ooh, the Deputy Minister of Magic?

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t need to be head dog. Hermione can do it. Granger-Sims, 2024.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: All the glory and not the… hey, I would sell those shirts. New dropship idea.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: There we go.

Micah: I’ve got to pick McGonagall.

Andrew: That’d be fun.

Eric: Yeah, she’s got the…

Micah: She’s my Tim Walz. She would not take…

Laura: There you go.

Andrew: “She’s my Tim Walz.” She holds a little piglet upside down and scratches its tummy.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: She’s got mass appeal. Former Quidditch player, Deputy Headmistress, Transfiguration…

Eric: Yeah, we don’t get enough jock McGonagall. We don’t get enough of it. Just in the way she supports Harry…

Micah: And she doesn’t take bleep. I’m thinking the Umbridge encounters.

Andrew: Well, thanks, everybody. This was fun getting together, right? IRL and doing this.

Laura: Loved it.

Eric: This is going to be wonderful.

Andrew: This is an hour ten currently, so it’s just like a normal episode of MuggleCast.

Eric: Sorry, Andrew.

Andrew: No, it’s fine. Thanks to patrons for submitting those questions. We only asked for questions earlier in the day, and as always, y’all came out with questions quickly, and great questions. We didn’t get to all of them, but we did get to a lot, so thank you, everybody. This show is brought to you by those Muggles and many more Muggles. We were able to record this podcast together tonight because of listener support; the support helps us attend events like Podcast Movement, and we’ve been here to learn tips and tricks about podcasting and growing. They’re all looking at me right now. [makes distressed noises]

Eric: We’re watching you. We do this all the time.

Andrew: I know, I know. But there are two great ways to help us out, and we really need your support. We’re entering this new phase of MuggleCast as the TV show comes up and is getting closer, and we’re going to be there with you through all that. So to help us out, if you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you instant access to ad-free and early releases of MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month. And for even more benefits – and this is the best way to support us – pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll get all the benefits of MuggleCast Gold, plus livestreams, yearly stickers, another new physical gift every year, a video message from one of the four of us, and a lot more, including access to our private Facebook and Discord groups. We couldn’t do this without you. Eric is wearing our new “19 Years Later” T-shirt. And thank you everybody for sticking with us for 19 years and counting. The reason is you! To quote Hoobastank.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “And the reason is…” That would be my karaoke song, actually.

Eric: Oh, I love that.

Andrew: All right, y’all. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Whoa, that was fast!

Eric: Too fast!

Andrew: Yikes! Whoa.

Laura: I was trying to match y’all’s energy.

Andrew: That just freaked me out.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric: Got a little dizzy there.

Andrew: They really want to play Codenames, I think.