Transcript #735

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #735, Step Daddy Snape (HBP Chapter 12, Silver and Opals)


Cold Open


Eric: [sings a percussion-heavy, intense version of “Hedwig’s Theme”] That’s going to be it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Bang, clang, clang, bang…

Eric: Bang, clang, clanging, banging…

Laura: There we go.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode. This week, we do have an update on the TV show, and be careful what you touch, because we will be discussing Chapter 12 of Half-Blood Prince, “Silver and Opals.” And helping us with today’s discussion is MuggleCast supporter, Channell. Welcome, Channell, to the show!

Channell: Hi, thank you.

Andrew: Let’s get your fandom ID.

Channell: My favorite book is Goblet of Fire, my favorite movie is Chamber of Secrets, my Hogwarts House is Hufflepuff, my Ilvermorny House is Pukwudgie, and my Patronus is the Saint Bernard. And my favorite spell that Snape invented is the Liberacorpus, which is the counter to Levicorpus.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Yes, free the ankles. Free all of the ankles everywhere.

[Andrew and Channell laugh]

Andrew: Hashtag #FreeTheAnkles! And can you please describe what you’re wearing today? You’re popping today, Channell.

Channell: Thank you. I am wearing my yellow, black, and white plaid kimono coat that I made for my birthday last year so I could be all Hufflepuffed out. I’m glad I did it last year so I can wear it to see Tom Felton for my birthday this year.

Andrew: Oh, did you already do that? Or is that coming up?

Channell: It’s coming up.

Andrew: Okay. When’s your birthday?

Channell: March 1, the same as Ron’s.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: I love that. Well, happy early birthday.

Channell: Thank you.

Andrew: Yeah. And what was the comment you made about your sleeves earlier, before we started recording?

Channell: They’re cozy and kimono style?

Andrew: Yeah, but you were afraid you looked too much like Snape or something like that? [laughs]

Channell: Oh, this is a very long coat and I made it flare out at the bottom, so when I walk, it billows like Snape, and I feel very Hufflepuff-Snape, kind of.

Andrew: [imitating Snape] “You look fabulous for a Hufflepuff, I must say.”

[Channell and Micah laugh]

Laura: Well, isn’t it kind of implied that Hufflepuffs and Slytherins do get along fairly well? I mean, I’m specifically thinking about Newt and Leta.

Andrew and Eric: Oh.

Channell: They are matches.

Eric: Yeah, there’s some level of understanding between them when one is not shaking the other for lunch money.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I’ve dated Slytherins before.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Eric: Longterm.

Andrew: Ooh, we should talk about that sometime on bonus MuggleCast. [laughs] Which Hogwarts Houses would we and would we not date?

Laura: And have we dated.

Eric: Yes, yes.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, welcome, Channell, and thank you for your support on our Patreon.


News


Andrew: And before we get to Chapter by Chapter, we do have a bit of news: It was announced last week that Hans Zimmer is going to be the composer for the Harry Potter TV show! Wow, that’s pretty significant. If you can’t get John Williams, seems like the next best thing.

Micah: I’m just waiting for Captain Jack Sparrow to jump into Hogwarts at some point.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, to that point, Hans Zimmer can create some really epic scores. Of course, Harry Potter has so many epic scenes, so it’s going to be fascinating to see what he and his team does.

Laura: Yeah, I just wonder if there’s going to be any clanging and banging, as we heard one of the prominent critiques of John Williams’s score indicate.

Eric: I have to say that, Laura, I’m so glad you mentioned that, but if there’s one thing that we can rely on Hans Zimmer for, it is some clanging, or at least banging; he loves his percussion. And in fact, this was my actual concern with this news, because I love Hans Zimmer. My favorite score of his is for Broken Arrow; it’s an early ’90s film with John Travolta and Christian Slater. But everything he does has a drumbeat, like war, Dunkirk and Inception, and I don’t know at this point that the Harry Potter universe has a drumbeat to it.

Andrew: I don’t know. [laughs]

Micah: I referenced Captain Jack Sparrow at the beginning of this conversation. That gives me a little bit of hope for some upbeat Pirates of the Caribbean high energy type of music for the Harry Potter series.

Andrew: Let me read the statement from Hans. He said, “The musical legacy of Harry Potter is a touch point for composers everywhere and we are humbled to join such a remarkable team on a project of this magnitude. The responsibility is something that [me and my team] do not take lightly. Magic is all around us, often just beyond reach, but as in the world of Harry Potter, you simply must look for it. With this score we hope to bring audiences that little bit closer to it whilst honoring what has come before.” So we will get “Hedwig’s Theme.” They have to include “Hedwig’s Theme,” 100%.

Micah: That was going to be a question that I had.

Eric: If they did it for the Fantastic Beasts series, yeah.

Micah: What is going to be his interpretation, though, of “Hedwig’s Theme”?

Andrew: [sings an intense version of “Hedwig’s Theme”] I don’t know. Drums, right, Eric?

Eric: Hang on, let me figure this out. Okay.

Andrew: Actually, it’s our theme song.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Okay, so… [sings a percussion-heavy, intense version of “Hedwig’s Theme”] That’s going to be it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Bang, clang, clang, bang…

Eric: Bang, clang, clanging, banging…

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: That was beautiful.

Eric: You guys get what I’m saying, though, right? Because he can do a lot of very big action-y…

Andrew: Yeah, but the role of the composer is to create scores that reflect the story, so I don’t think… music has percussion and it has rhythm, it has beats, so I’m not worried about drums.

Laura: I’m pretty optimistic. I mean, we have to remember, he has a pretty varied catalogue of films that he has composed for, which includes The Dark Knight, Inception, Interstellar, The Lion King… going all the way back to 1994. We have the Dune movies as well. So he has, I think, pretty far-reaching range. I think that he’ll be able to knock Harry Potter out of the park.

Andrew: Well, listeners, we’re developing some Harry Potter TV show-specific episodes of this podcast, and we’re going to be releasing them on a recurring basis as we approach the expected launch of the TV show next year, so stay tuned for those Harry Potter TV show-specific episodes of MuggleCast. Again, follow us in your favorite podcast app and you’ll never miss one of those episodes. And if you love MuggleCast and want it to live as long as Dumbledore did, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, just like Channell and those listening live tonight. We have exciting plans for the show this year, like I said, so we could really use your support to help make those a reality. By pledging, you’ll instantly receive two bonus episodes every month, plus ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, and much more. This week on bonus MuggleCast, we’re going to dive deeper into what goes into inventing spells in the wizarding world. It is a subject that’s never formally addressed in the series, so I have some questions to ask the panel regarding inventing spells – my mind was racing as I was reading this chapter, wondering about this – so we’ll discuss today and declare a bunch of canon. I also have created a few spells, and the panel will have to guess what they do. And brace for sound effects, y’all. I brought some lightning.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Get ready for some banging and clanging in bonus MuggleCast. [laughs] And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, or you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: Now let’s get to Chapter by Chapter. Half-Blood Prince Chapter 12, “Silver and Opals.”

Eric: This is a chapter that we last discussed way back on MuggleCast number 392, which was called “#ProtectTheSecrets,” for November 15 of 2018. Here’s a clip from that episode.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 392.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Andrew: Did Voldemort know that Dumbledore was gay? Did he think Dumbledore was going to want to put on this necklace?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: I’m sorry, do gay men have a penchant for wearing opal necklaces?

Andrew: Well, that’s what I’m asking here. Maybe Voldemort knows something that we don’t about what Dumbledore likes to do. Look, just a theory! I’m trying to examine all angles here, okay?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: He should have clearly sent him a pair of socks.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: That kill.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: Laura, this was a big episode for you. This was your big return.

Laura: Was it?

Andrew: You hadn’t been on in five years.

Eric: Well, it was the last guest-starring role before her return on Episode 400.

Laura: Oh, dang.

Andrew: Yeah, but prior to this episode I just played a clip from, you hadn’t been on in five years. So I wonder if I made that dumb joke on the show and you were like, “I’m second guessing coming back to the podcast.” [laughs]

Laura: No, I don’t think so. I don’t remember that.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: But I was second guessing coming back to the podcast when I was apparently locked out of the studio tonight before the recording.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I was like, “This is going to be weird, because I think I’m leading the discussion today.”

Andrew: I walked right into that one.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Andrew knew that you were going to challenge him on the opal necklace, and he was like, “Nope, not again.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: You know what? I’ll challenge myself on that. Opals are very lovely, and in retrospect, why wouldn’t a gay man want to wear an opal necklace?

Andrew: Exactly.

Laura: Why wouldn’t anyone want to wear an opal necklace? They’re beautiful.

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: Amen.

Eric: But I’m with you there, Andrew, on killer socks. That would have gotten straight to Dumbledore.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I said that.

Eric: Yeah. Nice job, Micah.

Micah: Thank you.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, we had an interesting call-out at the beginning of the chapter from Harry that I think is also echoed by certain members of this panel, right?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I opened this book to read this chapter, and the opening line is, “Where was Dumbledore, and what was he doing?” I thought Micah wrote this opening line of this chapter.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I feel like Micah says this every day on the podcast.

Micah: Great minds, we think alike.

Eric: I feel like it’s just possible that Dumbledore might not actually be that good of a headmaster at Hogwarts? Because what all of these absences say to me is he doesn’t have a real job to do at Hogwarts. It’s nothing he can’t delegate. It must be great to be the headmaster, but besides sassing the Minister for Magic and hiding things from Harry, what’s he do from day to day? He should be checking in with everyone in the school, and at least his staff, more regularly than he is. And what is he really even turning up with all of this travel? Eventually he finds the cave, but everything else that he’s doing remains hidden to us for all time.

Laura: Yeah, I think Dumbledore has been pretty clear about implying that being the headmaster of Hogwarts is not only better for him, because he’s someone who shouldn’t have the kind of power to be sitting in the Minister’s chair, but at the same time, sitting in that seat still does give him a good amount of power, and he’s kind of allowed to operate via a lot of unofficial means that would probably not be as available to him if he were working at the Ministry. So yeah, I agree with you. I don’t know that his top priority is being headmaster.

Micah: To the point that’s being raised in the Discord by TheOtherMinister, “He is a real administrator.”

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Well, what do you think this means for Harry, Channell?

Channell: That he keeps disappearing? Harry is an orphan, so he’s kind of attached to Dumbledore for whatever reason, but he kind of has some separation anxiety here, and so he’s really looking for Dumbledore to give him some attention and make him feel like the “Chosen One” and safe. Otherwise, Daddy’s not home, I guess.

Andrew: [laughs] Daddy.

Eric: Oh, it’s DumbleDaddy.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s important that you point that out, Channell, because I think Harry is a little preoccupied with Dumbledore’s absence, certainly after last year when Dumbledore was actively avoiding him. This year now, they do three meals a day in the Great Hall, and Dumbledore is just not around. I mean, Harry is told why; Dumbledore is looking up more memories and stuff, but everything that we’ve seen, unless I’m very much mistaken, all of the memories that we get shown throughout the rest of this year, Dumbledore has had for years. Dumbledore had the Bob Ogden one ages ago. He had the Hepzibah Smith and Hokey one ages ago. What is he actually getting that’s new? He had the interview with Mrs. Cole 50 years ago that talked about the cave, which he eventually finds this year; that’s one thing he finds this year, but he could have found that 25 years ago. Why does he need to be so absent this year, when Harry is looking for that mentor relationship?

Andrew: I think it is a great point that Harry is going through separation anxiety. Dumbledore got him very excited about working with him, having these private meetings, history lessons, whatever you want to call them, and then Dumbledore just disappears. Harry thought that Dumbledore and him had forged a new alliance and they were going to take care of business together, and now Harry is basically being left in the dark. It would have been different if Dumbledore said, “Hey, I’m going to be gone for five days or whatever, and here’s why,” or at least even tell him he’s going to be absent for X number of days. But Harry is really being shut out again, so I can see why this is bothering Harry so much.

Eric: Yeah, and Harry comes back, and I think one of the first things he does when Dumbledore returns is tell him about Draco, and that goes absolutely nowhere next chapter. Dumbledore doesn’t care. And it just furthers this divide of… or, well, Dumbledore cares; he seems not to care, and he tells Harry to forget about it. So it’s like the relationship between them is fractured again. But something that I just thought about here is that because Dumbledore is coming back – we find out in this chapter that Dumbledore is coming back Monday for Harry’s next lesson – it suggests that the only reason Dumbledore is coming back to the castle is to do his class with Harry, that otherwise he would just keep being off and gone.

Laura: Yeah, that’s actually a really great observation. And kind of getting into the meat of the chapter, I think another way in which Dumbledore’s absence affects Harry, whether consciously or unconsciously, is that I think it’s part of what drives Harry further into seeing the Prince as a mentor…

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: … because he is continuing to take his cues from the Prince to the extent that he’s reading the textbook during his free time, even when he’s laying in bed. The chapter starts out with Harry having woken up early, and instead of going back to sleep or deciding “I’m just going to get up and get started with my day,” he’s laying there reading a textbook, and this Hermione-ish habit annoys both of his best friends for different reasons. Eric, what do you think?

Eric: Do you guys remember what it’s like to wake up early just to read a book? I mean, not a textbook, I hope. I hope none of us has been…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Probably just the seven Harry Potter books.

Eric: Right?

Andrew: Other than that, I don’t know if I’ve ever gotten up early… the Prince is the DumbleDaddy that Dumbledore is not being for Harry.

Eric: [laughs] But what a great connection there.

Micah: Step-Daddy Snape.

Eric: Yeah, I… [laughs]

Micah: Step-Daddy.

Eric: I love that connection between Harry looking for a mentor and finding it in the Prince.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a silent companion of sorts, almost a friend, and this friend is giving Harry a pretty big advantage throughout the school year. And I also think the Prince comes across as a bit of a rule-breaker, and Harry is a bit of a rule-breaker himself, so these two get along pretty well with each other.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I was going to ask… I think also just it’s clear that the Prince is a whiz, and not just a wizard, but really good at Potions to the level that every time Harry gets complimented, that feeds back into Harry’s appreciation for how intelligent the Prince is. And Harry is not doing the due diligence of being, I think, adequately suspicious of the Prince – that will eventually come later – but to your point, Laura, he’s annoying his friends with this. And I think it’s just that… if we go back to comparing it to Dumbledore, Harry was expecting… one of the theories was that Dumbledore would be teaching him advanced magic, and that’s not strictly what Dumbledore is doing this year, but instead, Harry is getting all of this tutelage, these spells that he’s never heard of before, and he’s getting that from the Prince.

Channell: I feel like this would be a glimpse into all of the fanart that’s out there of if Snape had raised Harry.

Andrew: There’s fanart of that? Huh.

Eric: Aw. “Who’s a good little A-plus Potions master?”

Andrew: It’s the dad he doesn’t have! I was joking about DumbleDaddy earlier, based on what Eric said, but yeah, I mean, he is kind of a father here, actually, Snape is.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and he’s teaching him throughout the book, even though most of the time, Harry is not aware of who it is who’s teaching him. But speaking of teaching, for the first time we get to see Harry use one of Snape’s personal spell inventions? Question mark? There might be some debate over whether “invention” is the right word there, but Harry accidentally hits Ron with a Levicorpus, and it immediately wakes up the entire dorm room, Ron is suspended in the air by his ankles, and Harry has to quickly scramble to get Ron down.

Andrew: Yeah. So in terms of creating spells – we’re going to be discussing this more in bonus this week, but we’re going to do a little more in the main show – this isn’t addressed in the books ever, and nor was it ever addressed by the author, so there’s a lot of room for interpretation here. Harry does say twice… he, in the narrator voice, uses the word “invent” in terms of these spells, so I’m inclined to just say they’re spells that were invented by Snape himself. But how do you all think that spells are invented? And Laura, didn’t you put together a discussion on metaphysics in the wizarding world or something like that? This kind of harkens back to that discussion that we had a while ago.

Laura: Yeah, a number of years ago. Yeah, no, I mean, it’s a lot of… it was basically a discussion of like, “How does magic work?” And how do we explain things like… what was it, Gamp’s Laws of Transfiguration, and how are we getting things from nowhere, and where does the poop go when you Evanesco it…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: The most important questions.

Laura: All of these types of questions were what we were covering in that episode. It’s a good one. You should check it out.

Eric: It was Episode 576. It’s available on our Wall of Fame page, and there’s a transcript for it.

Andrew: Eric, what do you think?

Eric: Yeah, I tend to lean towards… so “invented” is not wrong; obviously, it’s what the book uses. But I’ve always thought of it as being more of a collaboration, where you have to figure out… the way that it’s described in this chapter, there’s all these words crossed out, like Snape is trying to create a spell. He’s creating it that does something, but what it does is based on the wording that he uses. Now, the only reason… or the way that that works is there has to be a right answer or an invocation, or the right incantation – the right Latin word, basically – that ultimately will achieve the desired effect, and all these words that Snape is trying are crossed out. So it is like bargaining with the universe to kind of give you what you want. You’re responsible for creating, or maybe popularizing… somebody at one point tells Harry that spells come and go in popularity.

Micah: Lupin.

Eric: But it must be crazy to be the first person that you know that stumbled upon a spell that does something really unique. Being grabbed by your ankle is really a unique thing to see.

Micah: Well, I think the reference to spells coming and going is more so just in terms of popularity, not that the spell actually will just fade into nonexistence. But the quote that came to mind to me when you asked this question, Andrew, is actually from Dumbledore, when he says, “Words are, in my not so humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic,” and so going off of what you were saying, Eric, there’s got to be a source code somewhere, right? There has to be almost this bank that we’re drawing from to create these spells.

Laura: There’s a spell database.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: You’ve just got to write the right SQL query and you’ll be able to pull ’em all down.

Andrew: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of just maybe a Potions class or a science class. You’ve just got to get all the ingredients just right for the magic to happen. It’s kind of what I guess, Eric, you’re describing; you need to find all the right parts of the word, the way to say the spell, all that, and you get everything right, and that’s where the magic happens.

Eric: The fact that Levicorpus is nonverbal. Why? We don’t know. But presuming if you say it out loud, it doesn’t work.

Micah: You can use it in Hogwarts Legacy, can’t you?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Maybe.

Micah: And that was well before Snape’s time.

Andrew: What do you think, Channell? Where do you fall on this?

Channell: So when I was reading this, it made me think of when I’m writing or trying to figure out a recipe.

Eric: Oooh.

Channell: So I have been trying for years to make the perfect butterbeer ice cream, so it’s a lot of crossing out, and then you have to take all of these different ingredients and put them together, and you know certain things work well. So he’s taking words and intonation, and how does that work, and then making it nonverbal, which I would think he would have to engineer; it’s like, “How does this work if I’m not saying it?” So he’s so brilliant that he can engineer his own nonverbal spells. And it was just really interesting to think about he’s just scratching it off, and I’m looking at my mini versions of ice cream, and I’m like, “It’s the same thing.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: By the way, where are you at on that? And is it ready to ship yet? Because we have a P.O. box, and…

Andrew: Or what’s your address? We’ll come to you and taste test for you.

[Channell and Eric laugh]

Channell: Ice cream party at my house.

Andrew: Woohoo!

Channell: I have a new round that I have to do…

Andrew: Oh.

Channell: … and hopefully, hopefully, this is the one. But I say that every time. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, now we and the listeners are invested, so please send us an update when you have one. When you’ve figured it out.

Channell: Yes.

Eric: So I love the comparison to recipes. I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think that… there was a person who presumably first invented the cheeseburger, but everybody has the ingredients of cheese… that pre-existed, but the exact combination… or you have instances throughout history of a dish being invented around the same time from different parts of the world or whatever that weren’t talking to one another. So there is a source code, but what Snape is doing, or that the Prince is doing, is using the narrow margins of Advanced Potion-Making to basically concoct a recipe to do something. It also strikes me, given the age at which this was Snape’s own Potions book – presuming that Advanced Potion-Making, the book, is a sixth year course – that these spells were possibly developed by Snape with the express purpose of using on James Potter and Sirius Black, because that necessity breeds invention. And keeping in mind what other spells are in here “for enemies,” I get the sense that this was something that Snape was actively involved in doing, and we know why.

Channell: Thus the nonverbal.

Eric: Don’t give your enemy the keys to the cool spell.

Laura: Right. So all of this, particularly Ron not suffering any ill effects from using Levicorpus on him… and Harry also uses another of Snape’s discovered spells on fellow students to stop them from eavesdropping on what he’s talking about. Nothing bad happens, so this increases Harry’s confidence in using the Prince’s work. Unfortunately, that ends up not always being a great thing; see Sectumsempra coming a little bit later. But Micah, this is a pretty reckless move, right?

Micah: Yeah, bad Harry. Bad, bad Harry.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: I don’t know what he’s thinking here in this moment. Maybe he’s not, and that’s part of the problem, but just… well, I will say I’m impressed that he’s able to cast this spell with almost no problem whatsoever. I don’t know that we even think about that part of it. It just works.

Andrew: Well, and maybe that’s one reason why he did what he did. He was like, “Well, I’m going to try it; I know it’s not going to work anyway,” and then he’s like, “Oh!”

Micah: But it’s so dangerous, though.

Andrew: I know.

Micah: If you think about it, you have no idea what the spell is going to do. And it’s really the same thing with Sectumsempra, right? He knows that it’s for enemies, but he doesn’t know what the impact or the outcome is going to be, and so that’s just a really reckless, dangerous move on his part. He could have seriously injured Ron.

Andrew: Maybe part of it is this book has been going so well for him, the Advanced Potion-Making book, that what could go wrong? He’s just gotten a little high on it, and it’s like, “Well, I’ll try everything. Sure, why not? No issue.”

Laura: He thought he could trust Tom Riddle’s diary at first, too, and we see how that went.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Yeah, Harry should have a little bit more self-awareness. It’s easy to throw rocks at him from here, but still. I think Ginny has already said her piece about it. Ron and Hermione… I will say, I’m not going to blame anybody other than Harry for this, but Ron’s ease of acceptance, the way in which he all of a sudden… he was obviously very cross and hurt in the moment when he was lifted by his ankle and woken up that way, but then by lunch is laughing at it, and is like, “Ah, it was innocent. Ah, Hermione, don’t be such a stick in the mud.” But if it were me, I wouldn’t be so quick to shake it off, honestly. Because Harry is reading from a book. Don’t do that around people. What the heck, Harry?

Andrew: Justin, who’s listening live, is also blaming Snape, which, yeah, I mean, he discovered the spell and then wrote it down and then left this book in a public classroom for some reason, so that’s his fault too.

Laura: It feels very un-Snape-like to have just left something like this laying around.

Eric: This, the Sword of Gryffindor… man, that guy is leaving stuff all the time.

Micah: Laura, you brought up earlier, though, these other spells that Harry is casting, and it’s also called out that he uses some sort of spell on Crabbe which makes his toenails grow, and Crabbe is in Snape’s House. I’m starting to wonder how Snape is not picking up on some of this, too. And I know he’s very distracted; he’s got a lot going on this year as well, but he’s somebody who seems very attuned to especially Harry in particular.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It just surprises me that this is not picked up on sooner.

Eric: Well, again, I’m sure the very first day of Hogwarts, Slughorn went into the staff room raving about how good Harry was at Potions, and Snape should have shown up in the middle of the night in Harry’s dorm and been like, “Give me the book. Just give me the book.” That’s how quickly Snape would have solved it if he had half a mind. But the question becomes, is Snape willingly aiding Harry? Is it just something out of the scope of something that he would care about? Or is he bound by the Unbreakable Vow, really, so much that he doesn’t want to interfere at all with anything involving Harry Potter, because there’s a chance he could prevent Draco from completing his mission by interfering with Harry in any way?

Andrew: I want to also turn this around and ask, should Harry have used this area of the book as a big hint as to actually whose book this actually is? Because Harry recalls that this Levicorpus was the same spell that his dad used that he had seen happen in Snape’s worst memory. I feel like this should have helped Harry narrow the list down, because if he saw his dad use the spell, it’s kind of crazy he wouldn’t ask himself if it was a half-blood Marauder, like Lupin, who actually was writing down all these spells. Or started putting the pieces together about Snape! He’s close. He’s very close.

Eric: It is a mark at how daddy-deprived Harry is that he’s like, “Could the Prince be my dad? Wait, no, my dad was pure-blood.” But he’s hopeful. He’s hoping this.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: So who else was in that scene?

Laura: Right, exactly. And it does raise the question of, if Snape discovered this, why was James the one using it? Or did he maybe write it down and learn to use it nonverbally after what happened to him so that he could try and tag James back?

Andrew: That’s what I’m thinking. I think that’s exactly… yeah.

Laura: But I want to ask a question in our continued debate about whether or not it’s right for Harry to be using this textbook to benefit academically in Potions class, because he’s continuing to do so, Slughorn is continuing to boast about Harry’s Potions prowess, and it’s pissing Hermione off, understandably so.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Good.

Laura: So I’m posing this statement – and I’m not saying that I agree with it – but Harry should use the Prince’s work to help curry Slughorn’s favor, since that’s what Dumbledore wants him to do anyway. Harry is just increasing the likelihood of Slughorn giving him the real memory. Discuss.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Harry don’t even know about that yet!

[Laura laughs]

Eric: You can’t retroactively justify this cheating. Blatant cheating.

Micah: No. I love this rationale. He can just go up to Hermione and say, “Hermione, stop. Dumbledore told me to get close to Slughorn; this is such a good way for me to do it. I am acing Potions. He loves me. He’s trying to court me in Hogsmeade later on in this chapter.”

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Use it to your advantage, Harry, and Hermione, just shut up already. You’re so jealous.

Andrew: [laughs] Slughorn likes talent, and I think he would love having exclusive access to these spells. I do just wonder, though, if Slughorn would tell Snape about Harry’s “work.” And also, what would Slughorn think of Harry admitting to relying on someone else’s notes for his class? That’s the part that really seems like a reason not to bring it up.

Eric: What’s interesting is I don’t think it would hurt Slughorn… it would hurt Harry’s credibility a little bit, but not really with Slughorn, because Slughorn likes him for being famous Harry Potter that stopped the Dark Lord. You know what I’m saying? Harry being revealed as having used this textbook for these potions recipes wouldn’t be a dealbreaker in terms of Slughorn still trying to socialize with him or invite him to Slug Club dinners.

Andrew: Channell, I saw you shaking your head.

Channell: [laughs] I think that Slughorn is a Slytherin for a reason. Using somebody else’s notes to get ahead is no different from what he does by collecting people and using his connections…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oooh.

Channell: … so as long as it gets the job done… I see why Hermione is mad, because if you ask Harry to recreate that potion without the book, he has learned nothing. He can’t do it. He doesn’t understand why you should squeeze or smash one of the ingredients to get more juice; he doesn’t understand any of that. So I think that all he’s doing is getting the attention, and he’s enjoying that. But I kind of agree with Hermione that he should stop, since the only thing he’s learning are the spells, so it’s kind of like learning a foreign language and only learning the bad words first.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Oh, great comparison. I love that. And Hermione voices… to your point, Channell, she voices not only is this cheating, but she’s starting to question the Prince’s motives, which I thought was really interesting because Hermione is normally the one who defends Snape when Harry wants to go to him as suspect number one anytime something shady is going on. She doesn’t know she’s talking about Snape in this moment, but I thought it was a nice little twist from what we normally see from her.

Channell: For Snape, it’s so interesting to think about him as the person behind all of the writing. And I keep trying to think, why hasn’t Slughorn noticed? Why isn’t he…? I mean, it was such a long time ago, but there has to be a reason why Slughorn doesn’t really remember Snape that well. He never tried to collect him. So my thoughts were just Snape in school probably didn’t like Slughorn very much, so that’s why his notes are all in his book. It was like he took a look at this textbook and he just kind of wrote Slughorn off and then showed him up in the book, but never actually showed Slughorn that he could do better. So it’s just you see Harry doing all of these great things with the potions, and it’s not clicking to Slughorn, probably because Snape never showed him.

Eric: That’s interesting.

Micah: That is interesting, because Slughorn would have presumably been the Head of Snape’s House as well, so perhaps there’s more there than we realize. But I think that Slughorn is willing to look past the Snape angle of all this because he’s probably attributing Harry’s prowess at Potions to Lily more so than Snape.

Andrew: Ahh.

Micah: We know she was really good at Potions as well.

Channell: I wonder why.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Right, that’s always the question.

Micah: Well, who benefitted from who here, is the question.

Eric: She probably had a book too.

Andrew: The Half-Blood Princess.

Laura: Right? Well, and how many of Snape’s discoveries that we see in the textbook were things that he found on his own, versus things – and it’s not saying that he was cheating – but things that he found together with Lily, because they were both gifted at this subject?

Micah: Yeah. In terms of Hermione, though, I still think there’s a bit of jealousy on her part as it relates to the Half-Blood Prince, because for the entirety of their time at Hogwarts, Hermione has been the source of academic assistance for both Ron and for Harry, and now, at least for Potions’ sake, the Prince is helping out Harry as much as he could possibly want and then some. So while I think it’s right for her to be cautious, of course, there is a little bit of jealousy there too.

Laura: I agree.

Eric: I don’t think it… and I disagree with Ron saying, “Oh, you’re just mad that Harry is getting a better score than you,” as a way to… as if that actually in any way discredits what she’s saying, which it really doesn’t, right? It’s still bad for him to do this.

Micah: No, she’s right to do it. Past is precedent, right? Look at Chamber of Secrets; there’s a whole backstory here that can be drawn upon about taking advice from books written by people that you don’t know.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: This is a good reason not to read any of my college textbooks.

Micah: It’s almost like the plot was copied.

[Andrew laughs]

Channell: I think Snape would have been a really great teacher if he actually wanted to be there, because of the way he got his job, it wasn’t really… it wasn’t him interviewing for a job as a professor at Hogwarts. He’s basically made a deal with Dumbledore, and it’s kind of like serving a lifetime prison sentence for him.

Eric: Oh, wow.

Channell: So you have this “I’m forced to be here” kind of mentality, but if he had taught students with the same enthusiasm that he has for his notes, then he would have been a phenomenal teacher, I think.

Andrew: There’s a line in this chapter from Harry. Harry thinks to himself, “The Prince had been a much more effective teacher than Snape.” That says it all.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: And I think we’ve discussed this on the show before. Snape is just not meant to be a teacher. Brilliant guy, can’t teach students.

Eric: Well, I love, too, that Channell, you just mentioned the interview process, because again, it’s not as if Snape ever had to brew a potion to pass the test and become a professor. I think it’s actually just happenstance that the Potions Master of Hogwarts for all of Harry’s years there is the best person at brewing potions that we will probably ever hear about or read about or meet. It’s funny that he’s so skilled and good at Potions, because he doesn’t have to be to be at Hogwarts. Look at Trelawney.

Laura: Right.

Channell: [laughs] He doesn’t have to be a really good teacher to be there, and that’s one of the other things that I was thinking about, is why didn’t Harry recognize Snape’s writing? Because you see him earlier in the chapter where… or is it later in the chapter where he recognizes Dumbledore’s handwriting?

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Channell: He gets a note from Dumbledore. But then also, you see that Snape sends messages to Harry vocally. He doesn’t write it down and hand it to a student; he just says, “Tell Harry this message.” So I’m wondering, does he just not write feedback on these essays? So he had the students turn to page 394 and write about werewolves, but he never wrote feedback like, “You’re wrong”?

Laura: Yeah. He definitely writes on the chalkboard, so you would think that… I mean, after five years of Harry taking classes with Snape, you would think he’d make the connection.

Andrew: Harry paying attention in Snape’s class? Mmm…

Laura: Yeah, probably not.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But I think it also goes to show that Harry is not observant. There are so many times throughout the series where the answer is right in front of him and he just doesn’t put two and two together. Some of that’s age, and then some of it’s just he couldn’t have predicted it anyway. But I do think this is a case of Harry not paying attention to what’s going on around him, and only paying attention to the handwriting of the people that he likes, right? So he’s able to recognize Dumbledore’s handwriting, but he’s not thinking that much about Snape.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Channell: I would think Snape’s would sear into his brain, like you’d have a trauma response to seeing Snape’s handwriting. [laughs]

Laura: You would think. You would think. Well, we’re going to take one more quick break here, and then we’ll be right back for the rest of the discussion.

[Ad break]

Laura: So after Harry’s somewhat tense breakfast conversation with Ron and Hermione about continuing to use the Prince’s textbook, the trio do head to Hogsmeade for what turns out to be a really short visit. I had forgotten before I started reading this chapter how this visit to Hogsmeade is pretty much a nothingburger, and they only do it to set up the plot point that comes at the end of the chapter with the necklace cursing Katie. But I will say, while they are in Hogsmeade, Tonks does stop Harry from assaulting Mundungus Fletcher, who they catch selling heirlooms from Grimmauld Place, which means he’s selling Harry’s stuff.

Andrew: Awful.

Eric: Yeah, probably a locket too.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs]

Micah: Probably.

Andrew: Harry should have been madder in this scene. He’s very frustrated, but I wish I saw more from him. And Mundungus does disappear, and Tonk says, “He’s halfway across the country by now; don’t waste your time.” But still, this is incredibly frustrating! This is his late uncle’s home we’re talking about that Dung is stealing from.

Eric: Yeah, it’s totally… it doesn’t matter that Harry has no interest in this stuff; I think even Harry says that in the book. He recognizes it as being from Sirius’s place. What makes him mad is the violation that Dung is doing. But something that I thought was surprising is that Tonks, who is supposed to be just totally miserable right now, and grieving over Sirius’s death, has no real reaction when Harry says Dung is taking all Sirius’s stuff. If anything, I know she came here to deescalate, but if Tonks were really feeling the way about her that people have suggested that she feels, she’d be the one pinning Dung to the wall and attacking him further! But she’s just like, “Yeah, Harry, you’ve got to let it go sometimes. What are you going to do?” It’s like, oh. This shows that there’s more Tonks than has been previously suspected.

Laura: Right.

Micah: Well, somebody who is doing their job – a Dumbledore who’s actually present – is Aberforth.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: And I’m curious at this point in the story, why would Aberforth be confronting Mundungus? And I’m presuming it’s for the same reason that Harry ultimately gets into this altercation with him about. We know Mundungus is not welcome inside the Hog’s Head; he’s earned himself a lifetime ban from the bar. So I’m wondering, maybe Mundungus tried to sell some things inside the Hog’s Head and got caught and…? I don’t know.

Andrew: I could see that.

Eric: Maybe he made a pass at the goat?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Maybe.

Eric: Wasn’t well-received?

Andrew: “Don’t you dare steal my goat.”

Micah: He was looking for some different kind of wares.

Eric: So I was thinking…

Laura: Well, and we also know that Mundungus has a history of at least once wearing a disguise to get into the Hog’s Head, so who knows what he’s done since then?

Eric: Right. Yeah, they have long history. They just have… I think that’s all it is, is they just… who knows what? Maybe it was not paying the bar tab; maybe it was something more nefarious. Because I think, doesn’t the Hog’s Head also pride itself on having an unsavory sort? Being a refuge for the unsavory sort? So the idea that Aberforth is cross with Mundungus and would boot him out, or tell him, “You can’t shop here, you can’t drink here,” does hint that there’s something big in their past. But I see a scene like this, and I’m just like, man, I had high hopes for Dung to literally just once choose redemption, and he never does. He’s just Dung.

Laura: Yeah. Well, the trio also briefly run into Slughorn at Honeydukes, who once again reminds them that he’s trying to collect Harry. Apparently, Harry has been getting physical invites via these purple envelopes for weeks to go to these Slug Club dinners that he’s not been to. Hermione indicates that she has. Do we think that Slughorn is even more interested in Harry since it’s been so hard to get him to come to these dinners? What do you think, Channell?

Channell: I think it’s quite the draw for him, because Harry is that crown jewel. He’s the crown jewel of the century, really, because he is the Boy Who Lived, but he’s also playing hard to get, so he’s kind of a tease there. Dumbledore sat him in front of Slughorn, and was like, “Come to Hogwarts; we have your next jewel here…”

Andrew: He’s not getting it.

Channell: And Harry is not doing it. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. What’s the saying? You always want what you can’t have. This is driving Slughorn crazy. His new trophy is out of reach, no matter how hard he tries.

Eric: What I love about this is Slughorn even proposes on the spot, hoping to catch Harry off guard, “Hey, what about Monday?” And Harry is like, “Oh, actually, it doesn’t work. I’m so sorry.” [laughs]

Andrew: “Ooh, can’t make that day either. I’ll call you.”

Laura: Right. It’s kind of like Harry is repeatedly declining… very politely declining repeat asks to go on a date with somebody a little bit. It’s like, “Ooh, no, I’m busy that night.” “What night? We didn’t even talk about what night.” “Oh, no, I just know I’m going to be busy.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, after this, the trio do have a quick drink at the Three Broomsticks before they decide to head back to Hogwarts before the weather gets worse. Didn’t mention that in this discussion, but the weather is horrible, which I think makes the ensuing scene that we’re about to talk about even harsher. So in route back to the castle, the trio is walking behind Katie Bell and her friend Leanne. The girls begin arguing over a package that Katie is carrying, which turns out to be the cursed necklace that is the namesake for this chapter. We’re later going to learn that this was intended for Dumbledore. And the package tears when the girls are tugging back and forth on it, causing Katie to come in direct contact with the cursed jewelry, and the results are terrifying. Katie is screaming and suspended in mid air; she’s soon pulled to the ground, where she continues screaming and shaking. And Leanne does detail the sequence of events as best she can: Katie came back from the bathroom with a package that she needed to take up to the castle, but she wasn’t able to answer any questions about who was sending that and why it was being sent up to the castle. So it’s pretty clear that Katie has been Imperiused here; Leanne comes to that unsettling realization when she’s recounting the series of events, and realizes that Katie was not acting like herself, and that’s probably what happened here.

Micah: More problems in bathrooms, just like in Chamber of Secrets.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Students being attacked by things in bathrooms, just like in Chamber of Secrets. It’s almost like they’re the same plot. The other thing I just wanted to draw attention to: There’s these subtle references to Ron looking over at Madam Rosmerta, and we’ll learn a little bit later on in the book that she was, in fact, Imperiused first, and she then Imperiused Katie. So it’s little breadcrumbs that are being dropped there. And I know, Andrew, you had something else that you caught on here as well.

Andrew: Yeah. A, kind of scary that you can Imperius someone to Imperius someone. That’s a dangerous domino effect.

Eric: Yeah, because where does it stop?

Andrew: Yeah. And then B, it is noted that Madam Rosmerta is not in view of Ron, which sets up what we do learn later about how she was involved with the necklace. But I feel like that’s a big clue for readers that something is amiss. Ron is looking for her, but she’s not there. Why?

Laura: Right. Yeah, because they assume she’s just behind the counter getting drinks or something. It seems completely innocuous.

Andrew: I think it’s even said she’s in the back room, which… she’s totally out of where she normally would be, I guess.

Laura: Right. Well, Harry, of course, recognizes the necklace as the one he saw at Borgin and Burkes when he was spying on Draco over the summer in Knockturn Alley, and he later accuses Draco of being the culprit when the trio and Leanne see Professor McGonagall, but McGonagall says, “It couldn’t have been Draco; he was serving detention with me when this happened.” Insert eye emoji here. We’ll come back to that later.

Andrew: [laughs] Shifty eyes.

Eric: I will say, for everything Harry is trying to do and say, the one person giving an alibi that he was not counting on is his own Head of House.

Laura: Yep, exactly.

Eric: Kind of a gut punch.

Laura: And the thing is, once again, Harry is a lot closer than he realizes here, because he thinks that this necklace is what Borgin was offering to sell Malfoy last summer when Harry was spying in Knockturn Alley. He specifically calls out Malfoy saying, “How would I look walking down the street with that?”

Eric: He’d look fabulous!

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: More people should wear opal necklaces.

Micah: Well, he would be flying down the street, right? Because it would pick him up into the air.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Right.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t know how much control he’d have.

Micah: Yeah. I just have so much frustration here with Harry not being believed, because in reading the book, the evidence is just overwhelming that Draco is up to something. Something; I’m not saying that he’s responsible for all these things that are happening, but it’s just like nobody’s listening to Harry, and especially Ron and Hermione, and that annoys me.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Especially – and we were talking about this a few months ago – people should be more willing to believe Harry over the course… due to the events of the last couple of years in this series. For him to be not believed again, especially from his trusted friends, is very frustrating to see. McGonagall… I can understand her practicing some restraint. She’s an adult; she’s a teacher. She had Draco with her earlier. But everybody else should be a little more receptive, I think, to Harry’s theory.

Eric: I agree with that, and I think that it’s just hard because, again, Harry takes it to Dumbledore and it goes nowhere, and it’s because it can’t go anywhere. Dumbledore knows. Dumbledore absolutely believes Harry. He absolutely, 100% has no problem with anything Harry is saying, unlike everybody else, but he doesn’t indicate anything is going on because it would ruin everything if Harry were allowed to know that Dumbledore knows that Draco Malfoy is up to something, and so Dumbledore has to play it too cool and basically be like, “Thanks for telling me. Okay.” As if it’s unimportant, which only causes Harry to spiral and spin out more and worse. So it’s one of those things, and I’m sure we’ll talk about this next week, but I think that the way that Hermione is treating Harry in front of McGonagall, and the way that Ron is just kind of looking at his feet, looking away like “This is embarrassing; I don’t want to be here,” is a shame. But Harry is not going to be allowed to have that payoff for reasons having nothing to do with his delivery here. Yeah, he seems kind of like a crazy person. We know he’s 100% right, but nobody is allowed to believe Harry right now because of the greater plot implications. Also, Andrew, I’m just noticing your half-moon glasses.

Andrew: Oh, I’m getting ready for a Dumbledore segment later in today’s episode.

Laura: Ahh.

Micah: The challenge for Harry is that he has the evidence, but he doesn’t have the evidence at the same time. And so as much as he would like to prove that it is Draco, he can’t, because there’s no tangible evidence at this time that would implicate Draco. And I did just want to call out… I thought it was important to note how McGonagall handles this situation with a Slytherin student like Draco, versus how Snape handles situations with Harry. So if we’re to juxtapose them a little bit – Head of Gryffindor House with Draco, Head of Slytherin House with Harry – they’re two very different styles, and usually totally unfair in Harry’s situation.

Laura: Yeah. But Channell, I think you actually have a good point here where you take a little bit of issue with McGonagall’s approach, right?

Channell: Yeah. I work with a lot of instructors, so I immediately flagged the way McGonagall handled this as providing too much information about Draco to the point where she violates student privacy. So for me, there’s no reason for the trio to even know why Draco was with her. She’s the Head of their House; she’s the Deputy Headmistress. She says, “Draco was with me, so he wasn’t there.” That should be the end of it. It’s a little embarrassing for a student to have that… like, “Oh, he was in detention.” Strike number one with the student privacy. And “for failing to turn in his homework twice.” That’s even further into the “Let’s embarrass Draco for no reason.”

Eric: I love this point. I’m trying to think, wasn’t it also…? Was it one of Snape’s verbal communications to Harry that he told another student about Harry redoing his detention or something where he’s like, “Oh, you’re going to do it next Saturday instead”? Somebody else relays that to Harry. It might have been Dumbledore.

Micah: It was Demelza Robins.

Eric: Demelza Robins! So there’s another example of a teacher telling a student about their detention through another student, or telling a student through… you know what I’m saying? It’s exactly what Channell is saying. And I think as far as the not turning in homework twice thing, that’s obviously meant to be a clue for the reader that Draco is distracted. This is supposed to be confirmation that Draco, even more so, is absolutely up to something, so much so that a normally decent student, we’ve been led to believe, is actually just straight up not doing his homework. So it’s weird because we’re having our cake and eating it; this is a further clue to kind of point us in the direction of “Draco is up to something.” But you’re right, it violates something for McGonagall to be that forthcoming with them.

Channell: We hold McGonagall to a higher standard than Snape. Snape’s whole purpose is to embarrass and belittle Harry…

Eric: Intimidate, yeah.

Channell: … but McGonagall is very much a standup type of professor. And it also… Draco not turning in his homework, yeah, it’s a clue for what happens later, but it kind of aligns with his statement on the train, where he’s like, “I don’t even know if I’m going to be here next year,” so it could kind of get hidden under, “I don’t care about school. I’m just here.”

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Well, you are, Draco. And you’re going to hug Voldemort.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Max that.

Eric: Well, Voldemort is going to hug you. I don’t know… it’s not reciprocal.

Micah: But Channell, I really like that point, though, because it makes me rethink everything that I just said about McGonagall, because she does kind of needle Draco in an underhanded way. It’s not like Snape, who’s very outspoken against Harry, so it is like she is sticking it to him a little bit by giving away all that information to the trio.

Channell: Behind his back, too.

Eric: Well, it’s possible that they had Transfiguration with the Slytherins, and maybe in front of the whole class it was like, “Okay, who did the assignment? Draco, you didn’t? That’s detention for you.” Maybe she said that in front of the class, and it’s a situation where it’s not meant to belittle him, but the whole class understands that that’s the penalty for not doing homework, and then here she’s just reminding them that that’s where Draco was. Could have been a thing.

Channell: But he seems so clueless about it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think there’s something to be said for McGonagall hitting back a little bit on the basis of the fact that she knows what Snape does and how he’ll put Harry and other students on blast repeatedly in front of other students, and this feels like maybe a bit of a subtle moment for her to get back. But that’s our chapter.


Odds & Ends


Laura: We are going to talk about one odd and end: Just noticed that Harry is starting to get a little jelly when he thinks about Ginny with Dean.

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: He notes that he doesn’t see her at the Three Broomsticks, and she and Dean are probably cuddled up somewhere, and he feels a little irritated in that moment.

Andrew: She got invited to Hogsmeade too, right? And she’s like, “I’m going to be there with Dean. Maybe I’ll see you there.” That sucks.

Eric: And Harry has a thought where he’s like, [grumpily] “They’re probably at the tea shop.”

Andrew: “Snogging.”

Laura: He hasn’t had any good memories there.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]


Superlative of the Week


Laura: But now we’re going to get into our MVP of the Week. So this week’s question is: What do we think would have happened if Dumbledore had received the cursed necklace? With the caveat that I’m looking for wrong answers only.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I think he would have started making those weird noises that Voldemort makes in the eighth Harry Potter movie.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Nyeh! Ough! Wahh! Gahh!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. What’s with all this jewelry Dumbledore comes into? First the ring, then the necklace. I think he would break the curse upon it, then he’d go to dinner in those items and a cocktail dress, looking fabulous.

Micah: Return to sender; it wasn’t his color.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, dang. Similarly, I said he would forward it to Mundungus, thinking, “You know, I’ll just do him a little favor and give him something that he can pawn off, make a little money.”

Channell: I think that he would give it to Aberforth in true sibling fashion for a laugh.

[Andrew laughs]

Channell: If I ever were able to do that to my brother…

Andrew: Yeah. Wait, you would do that to your brother?

Channell: I mean, Madam Pomfrey is like, right there.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. He’ll live.

Laura: I really love that call-out. It’s like, “It’s not that serious. Healthcare is right there. Come on.”

Andrew: [laughs] Channell, don’t let your brother listen to this episode.

[Laura laughs]

Channell: I don’t think it would surprise him very much.

[Everyone laughs]


Lynx Line


Laura: Well, now we’re going to move on to our Lynx Line. Patrons who are members of our Slug Club over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast answered this week’s question, which was: Given the example we get this chapter of Katie being Imperiused, how could Hogsmeade do a better job of protecting visitors and residents from security nightmares right now?

Andrew: Rachel said,

“Something akin to security cameras in and around buildings in Hogsmeade could be very helpful. Items to detect Dark objects and enchantments, like the Thief’s Downfall in Gringotts, would also be a good preventative measure.”

Eric: Carly says,

“I’ve never understood why the Caterwauling Charm wasn’t used more often in Hogsmeade. The Death Eaters used it to great success (unbeknownst to them) in Deathly Hallows, so why was it never used for catching Death Eaters, Sirius, or other wizards that were ‘at large’? Side note: Could that charm also be used to detect Dark objects as well as certain individuals? Like it goes off if a cursed object enters a certain radius of the town.”

Could do anything!

Micah: Zachary says,

“A shield or ward bubble around the whole village like what they did to protect the castle. It can be keyed to only let in those with pure and honest intentions and no hint of malice. As like the castle has, anyone who has malicious intentions and tries to enter will suddenly forget why they’re there, thus giving them a clear mind which would either allow them to enter or turn back.”

Laura: That’s a good one. Sara says,

“I feel like even just having some teachers or other trusted adults around would help. Like, the kids are all just there unsupervised in a village? Not saying they need to be shepherded around, but some teachers just being around for support or emergencies would be smart.”

Eric: It reminds us… yeah, we see Flitwick and McGonagall and the Minister for Magic there from time to time, but there’s nobody stationed there.

Laura: Right.

Channell: Matthew says,

“From what I’ve seen, with teenagers breaking into every single secure location in the wizarding world, it simply isn’t possible to secure anything.”

[Eric laughs]

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Eric: Why try?

Andrew: Forty says, “Open a dispensary to chill everyone out a bit.”

Laura: Listen, that’s a Hogsmeade I want to go to.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: We can add it for Hogwarts Legacy 2.

Laura: Oh, man.

Micah: Dobby’s Dispensary.

Eric: That’s a big update.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Dobby is free indeed.

Eric: Everyone is stoned now, yes.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Have you seen the videos of Dobby online? I mean, they are amazing.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yes, I have, because you’ve sent me them, Micah. Thank you for continuing to send me them.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: They’re so good. Anyway, we’ll share them in the Discord.

Eric: Augh, okay. Yeah. So Ben says,

“I believe we saw the Thief’s Downfall at Gringotts break an Imperius Curse in Deathly Hallows. They should just put a Thief’s Downfall at the entrance and exit of every establishment in Hogsmeade. Everyone would be wet, but safe! Or, is it possible to make a Thief’s Downfall out of snow instead of a waterfall?”

Micah: Good question. And finally, Broc says,

“Given the unfortunate history Hogsmeade has of not knowing who is in the village and being unable to stop violent criminals and some of the wizarding world’s most dangerous convicts from entering (from Sirius in Book 4, Draco trafficking Dark magical objects in 6, the golden trio Apparating in at the end of 7, and the multiple secret passageways from Hogwarts), I fear there’s only one solution: They have to build a wall and bring in ICE.”

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, so I didn’t read that one before pasting it in.

Micah: Hold on. “Just kidding, we’ve all seen how well that works.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I was going to say, I hope it’s not literally too icy in Hogsmeade, because we’ve seen how ICE does when there’s ice.

[Andrew sings a comical, slapstick tune]

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also DM us on social, you can reply in the Spotify or YouTube comments… whatever is convenient for you; we keep an eye on all of it. And next week, we’ll continue our Half-Blood Prince discussion with Chapter 13, “The Secret Riddle.” Don’t forget to visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon… we’re going to have a new bonus MuggleCast talking more about creating spells, like do people discover these spells? Do they get compensated? Do these spells get added to some sort of database? All kinds of great questions I can’t wait to discuss with the panel today. So you’ll find a link to our Patreon on MuggleCast.com. You’ll also find there our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: In Chapter 11 of Book 6, Ron asked Hagrid what his barrel full of grubs will grow into, and Hagrid doesn’t say. In real life, grubs are the larval stage of what insect? The correct answer is beetles! 47% of people with the correct answer say they did not look that up. This week, winners with the correct answer gave the following names: 67-kid; A Healthy Breeze; Andrew’s Pizza; Beatles the band; Beetle the Bard; Cheeseshark; Does this mean Rita Skeeter was a grub before adulthood?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I love that.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: GrubblyWeaselPot; Slytherin Squib; Teacher of Muggles; The Grublet of Fire… [laughs] getting a lot of mileage out of this. The Nurse that Assigned Dudley His Diet; Therian Ravenclaw Slytherin Fox; and Turtle! And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 12 of Book 6, the password to the Gryffindor common room is “Dilligrout.” In real life, is Dilligrout A) a bird, B) a stew, C) a medicinal herb, or D) a cave fungus? What is Dilligrout? It’s multiple choice. Visit the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website; go to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch to submit your answer to us.

Andrew: Channell, thanks so much for joining us today!

Channell: Thank you!

Andrew: It was a pleasure to have you on, and thanks for all your wonderful wisdom. And you win best dressed cohost ever, I think.

Channell: Thank you.

Andrew: And thanks for your support on Patreon.

Channell: Thank you so much.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Channell: And I’m Channell.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Micah: Bye.

Laura: See you next time.

Transcript #734

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #734, Silent Chaos (HBP Chapter 11, Hermione’s Helping Hand)


Cold Open


Micah: Are you able to cast any of these spells nonverbally? That would be really unfair. I mean, I’m sure we’ve all done it, right, where we’re walking past somebody, and inside of our heads, we’re like, “Avada Kedavra.” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, die.

Laura: Oh, yeah. All the time. Totally normal.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Happy New Year, everybody, and we’re your Harry Potter friends talking about the books and the movies and upcoming TV show, and whatever else 2026 throws our way, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app and you’ll never miss an episode of the show. And this week, watch with us as Hermione breaks about ten school rules and isn’t sorry about it, because we are discussing Chapter 11 of Half-Blood Prince, “Hermione’s Helping Hand.” By the way, did you all get any Harry Potter stuff from Santa or anybody else over the holidays?

Laura: I got a really cute Honeydukes blanket.

Andrew: Aw.

Laura: Yeah, it’s really cute, and it’s very… it doesn’t look like… I’m sure it is official merch, but it doesn’t look like official merch. It definitely looks like something that somebody made. And it’s so soft; I really like it.

Eric: Aw.

Micah: Nice.

Eric: I’ve been paying close attention to the MuggleCast patrons group on Facebook as the Secret Santa gifts roll in. People are really happy with some of the gifts they’ve been getting this year.

Micah: I really enjoy that. I will say, that is one of the longstanding patron activities…

Andrew: Traditions.

Micah: … that the patrons created themselves, the listeners created themselves, that I always enjoy. I did get a Hogwarts hoodie with the crest on the front, so I’ve been wearing that. It’s very comfortable.

Andrew: Have you guys heard of the soap brand Dr. Squatch?

Laura: Oh, yes.

Andrew: Santa got me the Harry Potter collection of Dr. Squatches, and there’s one for each Hogwarts House. So I’ve opened up the Slytherin one thus far, and now I’m lathering myself in the smells of Slytherin every day. [laughs]

Micah: Which is what? What does Slytherin smell like?

Andrew: [laughs] Well, some of you might say it smells like garbage, but…

Eric: Swamp.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I bet it’s something like sage and moss. Something earthy.

Andrew: Yeah, hold on. Let me pull it up. Oh my God, there’s a Voldemort soap too.

Laura: I don’t think he uses soap.

Micah: So we all agree that we’re going to post pictures with our gifts, right?

Andrew: [laughs] We could. It smells like snake grass?

Micah: Andrew’s video will go on the Only Fans.

Andrew: Apparently it smells like snake grass.

Eric: Oh, snake grass. I mispronounced snake grass a moment ago.

Andrew: Too late. I heard what you said, Eric, and it was very mean. Now I know what you think of Slytherins.

Eric: Actually, when I think of Squatch, the brand of soap to begin with, that’s what I think of, because it has Bigfoot on the brand.

Micah: Well, Andrew, now you know, just clean your armpits and your bum with Hufflepuff.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: I use each Hogwarts House soap for a different part of my body. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. First of all, that’s amazing. If that happens, you’ve got to video that. And also, we’ll be there for you, Andrew.

Laura: Yeah, video that.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, let us know where I should use the Gryffindor soap. [laughs]

Eric: Well, listen, guys, this is the year MuggleCast turns 21. We’re adults now.

Andrew: Ravenclaw soap I’ll use on my head, because Ravenclaw, wise…

Micah: To get smart?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. To get smart.

Laura: No, don’t use soap on your hair.

Andrew: I know. Well, everywhere else but my hair. Everywhere else.

Laura: No, don’t use it on your… that’s not made for your face.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: You need different cleansers for your… oh my gosh. See, we’re 21, but I’m still over here having to educate about skincare.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Laura, nobody… we were raised male; nobody taught us.

Laura: Well, I will teach you.

Andrew: Coming to the Patreon at the $1,000 a month tier: Andrew bathes with different Hogwarts House soaps. Stay tuned. Must pledge for a year upfront. [laughs]

Micah: People will pay for it. I would not throw that out there. People will play for it.

Andrew: Okay, well, Micah, I agree. And if you love this show, listeners, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We have exciting plans for the show this year, besides showering videos. We’re planning some new look forward and look back episodes that join our Chapter by Chapter episodes, so we could use your support in making those happen. And by pledging, you’ll instantly receive two bonus episodes of the show every month, ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, and a lot more. And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, or you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show. And you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear, like the “Security Consultant” hat that I’m wearing tonight.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, and now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and like we said, we’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 11, “Hermione’s Helping Hand.”

Micah: Ron knows all about that.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, Jesus.

Micah: Because she Confunded Cormac. Her helping hand.

Andrew: Got it. Got it. We’re feeling fresh after the holiday break.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: You know, I’ve got to say, this chapter title… that’s Micah’s first adult joke of the year, and I’m living for it. It’s hilarious. Also, this chapter title is a very… this chapter title is great PR. “Hermione’s Helping Hand,” a.k.a. she breaks about ten school rules. Anyway, we’ll get into that, of course.

Micah: Lots of alliteration.

Laura: It’s for the greater good, okay?

Eric: The GG? The greater good? Helping hand for the greater good? HH for the GG? We last discussed Chapter 11 of Half-Blood Prince on MuggleCast 391, over eight years ago. This was on October 29, 2018. The episode, for some reason, was called “Sluggybear.”

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 391.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Andrew: People are just coming out for tryouts just to, what, be in Harry’s presence? See him around? Be near him? It seems just very immature, and I think if they wanted to take these practices more seriously, maybe they should have had some more vetting involved.

Eric: I mean, it’s pretty ridiculous. Even Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws turn out to try out. [laughs] For the Gryffindor Quidditch team. It’s really… and Harry’s just got to go, “Get off the pitch!”

Andrew: See, there should be a rule at Hogwarts that you are kicked out of your House if you are going to try out for another House’s Quidditch team. That’s treason!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I would be pissed at my fellow students.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Let’s get on to the meat of the discussion, and the two topics we’ve singled out are also alliterative. We’re going to be talking about Hermione, then we’re going to be talking about Hagrid. This chapter, more than some others, features Hermione and the way that she influences events around the school. Of course, there’s the helping hand we referenced earlier, but there’s more stuff even before then. So it seems like Hermione is raising her hand in classes, which is much appreciated, because the overall workload has intensified and the overall complexity of their schoolwork has just gotten worse. And I don’t know about you guys, but have you ever been in class and you’re wondering what the heck is going on, but you’re too shy to ask, and then somebody else raises their hand and asks, and then the teacher gives a clarifying answer, and you’re like, “Oh, thank God somebody asked, because I didn’t know what was going on”?

Laura: Definitely.

Eric: I feel like that’s happening every day now for Harry, Ron, and Hermione.

Laura: Yeah, completely. And the secret to that kind of thing is if you have a question, statistically at least a couple other people have the same question, and they’re just too scared to ask, so ask the question.

Andrew: There are no stupid questions, as is liked to be said.

Eric: That’s kind of the point of education, isn’t it? Is ask questions. And the teacher doesn’t know what you don’t know until they test you, which is way too late to find out that you don’t know some stuff. The most interesting thing about this for me, though, is that both Transfiguration and Charms NEWT-level classes are requiring the students to know nonverbal spells. What’s interesting about this to me is nonverbal spells were taught by Snape, and I say taught – there’s an asterisk there – but I always pictured it as more of a Defense Against the Dark Arts thing, but for these other teachers’ classes to require it… remember, this year, not everyone’s taking Defense Against the Dark Arts. In fact, only 12 people are taking Defense Against the Dark Arts this year. So how is it that nonverbal spells were introduced to the other students? And do you think that McGonagall or Flitwick are taking time out of their day to explain it? Because if that’s the standard now, nonverbal spells, you would think that Harry and Ron would be – well, for two people; just naming two random students here – would be better at them. And as Harry notes throughout this chapter, people are turning purple in the face trying to figure it out or master it, but if this were the standard, again, Flitwick, McGonagall, all the Heads of House would be sitting the students down and showing them how to do it.

Laura: It just makes me wonder how much there is to show. The impression I get… and first of all, I think it’s totally valid to point out here that the way nonverbal spells work is not explained very well at all in the series, but I think we’re just meant to assume that people just have to sit there and try casting their incantation in their head and they just have to keep trying until they get it right, until they figure out what works for them, which isn’t a great system, admittedly.

Andrew: Yeah, and then it’s like, “What’s the problem here? Am I not being focused enough? Am I not being clear enough in my head? Is my mind not clear enough to begin with?”

Eric: “Did I remember the three D’s?”

Laura: “Do I not mean it?”

Eric: Well, and that’s the hardest part, too, because you would think also that after the introduction of nonverbal spells, combat would get so much more escalated in the Harry Potter books. It doesn’t, thank God, but if Harry had to contend with nonverbal spells… it really only happens at the end of this book with Snape, when he faces off against Snape briefly, but I don’t recall Harry always having to now, from this point forward, deal with other people – even Malfoy’s – nonverbal spells. Harry, for the most part, still remains verbal, and so does pretty much everybody else.

Micah: This just makes me think of a bunch of students sitting in class looking extremely constipated.

Laura: It’s kind of what it sounds like.

Eric: Thanks to Weasleys’ Wizard Weasleys, that can be all classes everywhere.

Micah: The other piece of it, though, to me, is nonverbal spells feels like something that should really be at an advanced level that not everybody should know how to do, and I almost see it as a threshold that witches or wizards reach. It’s not even necessarily age dependent; it’s just based on their learning and how advanced they become in any one particular area. Because presumably, as you’re saying, Eric, you could use nonverbal magic in almost any subject.

Eric: Right.

Micah: So the fact that it needs to be taught in Defense Against the Dark Arts doesn’t really make sense.

Andrew: But I do think nonverbal spells could be used in dangerous situations as kind of a last resort or a safety mechanism. If you’ve been kidnapped or somebody’s trying to attack you, you would probably want to use a nonverbal spell to avoid being caught. So I could see why they should be taught, because it feels pretty important. Does it matter in, I don’t know, Charms? Not necessarily, but in DADA, and even in Transfiguration, I think it could be very helpful to protect yourself.

Laura: I almost wonder if this is just a concept that is required academically, but just not something that most people use in common day-to-day life. It’s probably a bad example, but I’m thinking about when we were all in school and we were taking upper level math, and more often than not we were not allowed to use calculators because they wanted us to be able to show our work and that we understood the concept. Forget the fact that they told us, “You’ll never be walking around with a calculator in your pocket,” because that ended up being false.

Eric: That aged poorly.

Laura: Yes, it did. But at the same time, I could kind of see this – nonverbal spells – being something that is conceptually important in so far as people need to understand that it exists and it is an option, but you don’t necessarily need to be very good at it, because it seems like most people aren’t.

Andrew: Michele, who’s listening live tonight, also brings up an interesting question: “I wonder what that looks like in practice. All these nonverbal spells going around the room and causing things to happen.” It’d be like silent chaos.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Right. Well, and think about how much they mess up when they’re doing verbal incantations. Think about the number of times we’ve seen things go haywire because people don’t cast a spell appropriately. Think about all the stuff that can go wild if people are trying nonverbal and they’re not good at that.

Micah: So one question I did want to ask – and this kind of fits nicely with what you just said, Laura – is related to the Unforgivable Curses, speaking of things going really awry. Are you able to cast any of these spells nonverbally? Because presumably, that would be really unfair. Somebody is just walking down the street, inside their head… I mean, how many…? I mean, I’m sure we’ve all done it, right, where we’re walking past somebody, and inside of our heads, we’re like, “Avada Kedavra.” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, die.

Laura: Oh, yeah. All the time. Totally normal.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: All the time. If I had a nickel.

Micah: How do you think Andrew created all of his Horcruxes, by the way?

Andrew: [laughs] It does look like there are a couple of instances of nonverbal Unforgivable Curses being cast by Bellatrix and Voldemort in Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows, respectively. But yeah, it does seem very unfair for such serious curses to be sneakily applied. Maybe it is extremely difficult to do, and only one of the best wizards of our time could possibly pull off such a thing. But unfortunately, it does seem possible.

Micah: Right, think about the battle at the Ministry between Dumbledore and Voldemort. You don’t hear any spells really being cast, right?

Andrew and Eric: Right.

Eric: And even at the cave at the end of this book, when Harry hears Dumbledore murmuring something, it’s a completely next level of magic that Harry is sure isn’t even English; doesn’t seem like Latin…

Micah: He’s constipated too.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, that’s just the sound he makes.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So it’s pretty interesting to think about… I mean, the way that the movies were adapted, too, pretty much, I don’t know, as of Movie 5, everybody’s nonverbal. It’s like the action sequences with the “Pew, pew, pew” spells going everywhere.

Andrew: True.

Eric: But at the same time, I think you should figure out, or be able to figure out… I mean, the AK has that telltale green light, but it’s not like by the time you see the green light you have any way of getting any kind of recourse against it. Something else that Hermione does in this chapter is she is the driving force for the kids to finally see and hopefully make up with Hagrid, and this is pretty much at the start of the chapter; they’re down at breakfast. Hermione notices that Hagrid is absent. This is a recurring thing with him; he’s not often there, but she says, “You guys, we have to go see Hagrid.” And it’s been enough time, and besides Quidditch practice, they’re not doing anything else today, so they agree that it’s going to happen. But Hermione in this chapter, still at breakfast, tells Harry, and I quote, that he’s “never been more fanciable” than he is now. Of course, in context, there is an explanation that makes sense for everybody, but out of context, I’m reading this going, “Is this one of the vestiges of people who felt that Harry and Hermione would be together romantically? Is this their big moment to shine where you have this quote from Hermione, where she’s calling Harry fanciable?” Did people’s…? Do any of us remember reading this and our heart leaping off the page, jumping for joy for this comment from Hermione?

Micah: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Micah, were you a Harry/Hermione shipper?

Micah: Oh, totally. I was writing fanfiction. I was posting in the forums…

Andrew: Wow.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … commenting, doing everything I could back when we were on dial-up.

Laura: Yeah, I moderated so much of Micah’s fanfiction back in the day.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Couldn’t keep up with all of it.

Laura: It got spicy.

Eric: The secret origins of how Laura knows Micah is because of all the editing she had to do, the moderating.

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: Yeah, we kept that on the down-low.

Eric: Amazing.

Laura: You heard it here first, folks.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Is this really how you feel, though, Micah?

Micah: No, to me, this is a very sibling-esque type of moment. It’s a brother/sister moment, and not brother-and-sister like Jamie and Cersei Lannister brother-and-sister.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s just how I feel. I think Hermione is paying Harry a very nice compliment here.

Laura: I think it’s rooted in their relationship being platonic, and I just contend that almost no teenager is going to so publicly declare their romantic interest in this way. I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who’s 16 years old, and imagine telling them, “Oh, you’re fanciable.” Nah.

Andrew: Well, yeah, I mean, that could be a British thing, so maybe that’s part of the reason why we have a hard time.

Laura: Sure. Okay, yeah, it’s a British thing, but even if you…

Eric: If you Americanize it?

Laura: Okay, what if we Americanize it? “You’re very…”

Eric: Cute?

Andrew: Sharp?

Laura: What would we say?

Eric: Dateable?

Laura: Yeah, “You’re dateable.”

Andrew: A catch.

Laura: If you were a 16-year-old, would you say that to the person that you harbored secret feelings for?

Andrew: Right.

Laura: No.

Eric: Americanizing this really helps.

Andrew: That said, I do agree that this is platonic affection in action. And I love that, and it speaks to how close platonically Harry and Hermione actually are. She’s just a proud friend. She’s talking about how everyone is on his side now, they know he was telling the truth now, she’s happy he’s getting the attention and the reception that he deserves, and I think… I don’t know if I’ve said it on the show before, but I think platonic affection needs to be normalized more. It’s a good thing to do with your friends.

Laura: Absolutely.

Andrew: It’s a good thing to do more openly, because people are like, “Oh, I can’t be platonically affectionate, because then people might think it’s romantic.” It doesn’t have to be. You just want to call your friends hot.

Eric: [laughs] So here’s the full quote from Hermione: “It’s not Quidditch that’s popular, it’s you! You’ve never been more interesting, and frankly, you’ve never been more fanciable.” So we all agree that that’s just a friend talking, but you know who doesn’t see it that way? Ron Weasley. [laughs]

Laura: He’s just so jealous. He’s so jealous.

Eric: Ron proceeds to just bend over backwards trying to kind of argue? He inserts himself in the conversation; he’s like, “I’m tall. I have this. I have that.” He’s making a fool of himself here because he thinks it’s a competition. But here’s the thing… okay, so we laugh; it’s funny when Ron is like, “I’m tall.” But if he is capable… he’s their closest friend too. He should know by now that the ship has sailed on H/HR, on Harry/Hermione. He doesn’t, obviously – it’s a big part of Book 7 that he doesn’t – but if somebody that close to Harry and Hermione can still think that Hermione has romantic feelings for Harry, then anyone else surely can still.

Andrew: That’s true. Yeah, he should understand by now that this just is platonic.

Laura: I don’t know. I mean, again, let’s put ourselves in the shoes of being in this dynamic as teenagers. I don’t know that I had the level of maturity to understand the difference when I was this age, and… I don’t know. I could see myself feeling a little jealous if I were in Ron’s shoes and if I had his temperament.

Micah: Yeah. And Ron has always played second fiddle to Harry, and he’s likely looking at this situation and saying to himself, “Here we go again. Harry is going to get the girl that I’m really interested in.”

Eric: It’s interesting, though, because I think Hermione is trying to prepare Harry for Quidditch practice, right? So it’s totally on topic, totally… Harry says, “I don’t know how we’re going to get through all the students, because so many people signed up,” and Hermione says, “It’s not Quidditch, it’s you.” So it is topical, but certainly her comments, even if they are received… I think they’re received by Harry in the way that they’re meant. He’s like, “Oh my God, my friend said I’m fanciable, but she’s a girl, so I’m fanciful to girls?” All the same, it gets him warm, and that’s kind of how that works.

Micah: As it should.

Laura: Totally.

Micah: I mean, I feel like we all have moments that we can probably look back on from when we were younger, when we’ve been paid a compliment and we blush as a result of it. It’s just a natural reaction. And I think for Harry, this is probably the first time that somebody has said something like that to him in public…

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: … where other people can hear it, and I think you get embarrassed on two fronts, right? One is the front of the person making the comment to you, and then the other is the fact there’s all these other people around who just heard what that person said.

Laura: Yep. It’s also a compliment that is not rooted in something that Harry did as an infant.

Micah: Yeah, he never got that.

Laura: It’s actually all about something that he actually did that he can remember now, that he chose to do.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: So he’s getting payoff for that a little bit, which is deserved.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: So unfortunately, I do think that Hermione’s comments kind of cause Ron to overreact. Actually, I feel nervous assigning blame to Hermione for Ron’s actions; that’s a problem. But essentially, this is where it starts… they’re walking down to Quidditch practice, and Lavender smiles at Ron or something and he sees it, and then he’s like, “Oh, another girl likes me. I should just ditch this ship and go off with her.” And this is where it starts, ultimately, is maybe in Hermione’s comment here to Harry that he’s fanciable. Ron feels the need to act out, and it’s going to get way worse from here. [laughs] So as we’re doing our read-through, I wanted to kind of pinpoint this moment and say, “Well, Ron’s choices are his own, but I think his ego right here is maybe bruised or in danger of being injured.”

Laura: Totally. Yeah, I mean, Ron is… he can be kind of immature, not all the time, but definitely in this realm of conversation he is. He’s also deeply insecure, and we also know that he is desperate for any kind of validation, and all it takes is for him to see, “Oh, there’s a girl who actually does like me and is expressing interest in me.” So Ron goes on in this book to make the rookie mistake that I’m sure we all made when we were young, of saying, “You know what? I’m going to date that person because they like me,” and not thinking for two seconds about whether or not you like them back.

Eric: Oh, that hits home. Well, Ron wants the glory of being in a relationship, and he doesn’t want to do anything to work for it.

Laura: Right.

Eric: And believe me, part of that analysis is autobiographical, where it’s like, if somebody shows interest in you or smiles at you, you think, “Hey, that’s my foot in the door.” And it’s not not your foot in the door, but let’s take a picture of who Ron really wants to be with right now: Hermione. In fact, he’s so threatened by Hermione saying somebody else is fanciable, even his best friend of the last five years, that Ron goes crazy about it. But if he wants Hermione to say that he is fanciable, or if he wants to date Hermione, why not pay her compliments?

Andrew: He should be talking to her about it. But in fairness to Ron, that foot in the door is important, and maybe there will be a part of him or anybody else who’s like, “Well, maybe this could work, so why not just give it a shot? Because they already like me,” which is half the battle when dating.

Eric: No, it’s true.

Andrew: You’ve got to find somebody who’s going to like you back. So if you find somebody who’s going to give you the light of day, then maybe you can just give it a shot to see if it will work out. So I get where Ron is coming from here, but yes, he has to shoot his shot with Hermione.

Eric: Yeah. Oh, it’s just so interesting, because I really did have the impression of… I took somebody to prom that showed interest, and I was… there was nothing romantic about it, but it’s like, “Oh, they showed me affection.” It was that foot in the door. It was making it easier to break down the barriers, I guess, between the two groups.

Andrew: And with prom, there’s always that pressure, too. You’ve got to find a date. You’ve got to have a date for the prom. We see this in Goblet of Fire. You might get a little desperate; maybe you’re not thinking clearly. I went to prom with a girl who ended up not being interested in guys later on in her life.

Eric: That’s fun.

Andrew: And for me, same, I wasn’t interested in girls later on. So it all worked out. [laughs]

Micah: You swapped.

Andrew: But it’s like we were the only two people who were interested in each other. Like, “Well, I gotta pick somebody, so I guess it’s going to be her.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s interesting. It’s like, do you think that you both knew that you were both queer?

Andrew: Maybe in our heart of hearts, yeah.

Eric: Not know-know, but subconsciously, because it’s always interesting when you hear those stories… when you think about those personal life stories, of like, “Oh, the people I surround myself with are safe.” It’s interesting. But anyway, the biggest thing Hermione does in this chapter, that warrants the name of the chapter being her helping hand, is interferes with the eventual Quidditch tryout. So after a ton of people show up – we talked about this – after a ton of treasonous Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs show up to the Gryffindor practice, and Harry sorts through them, it’s finally time for Keeper tryouts, and it’s between Ron and this guy that shows up out of nowhere, Cormac McLaggen. And Harry recognizes him from the Slug Club; actually, he doesn’t, because Cormac is the one who brings it up. And what I find to be interesting is that there’s some trickery afoot, right? Cormac is being tested, and so is Ron, on how many goals they can save out of five. Presumably, the Keepers-to-be are the ones that are tossing the Quaffle. And Cormac saves four out of five, and on the fifth one, shoots off in completely the opposite direction. Harry even notices that, due to his wide berth, Cormac probably doesn’t even need to move barely at all, and instead he just flies off in the wrong direction. That should have been more suspicious than it was. Ron manages to save all five of his goals. Harry is already suspicious of Hermione, sort of, but he lets the points speak for themselves. He doesn’t like Cormac; he’s a bit of a braggart, and he just says to Cormac, “Sorry, Ron scored more. My friend is in.” And I feel like there’s something uncomfortable here in that Harry eventually wrests a confession from Hermione in this chapter that she did, in fact, Confund Cormac. He’s not rushing for a rematch; he’s not rushing to basically retry these two Keepers. And ultimately, Hermione’s little justification of Cormac being the wrong personality, Harry agrees. But wouldn’t you, as a coach, want the best player, the best athlete on your team? So is this a moment where Harry is choosing to be a friend to Ron over being a Quidditch captain?

Micah: What I really don’t like about this whole situation, though, is that Hermione is taking this decision away from Harry. Because she Confunds McLaggen, presumably he would have saved all of them, and Ron would have saved all of them, and who knows? Maybe you go to a shootout of sorts, or maybe it’s Harry then, knowing that they both tied, has to make a choice. And to your point about do you go with the better athlete or do you go with your best friend? That’s a kind of minor life decision, though, that Harry is faced with, and he doesn’t have to face it, though, because Hermione basically makes the decision for him.

Andrew: And I guess his bias is at play, too, if he’s ultimately going with Ron, even though Ron didn’t presumably do better than Cormac.

Laura: Yeah, there is bias at play, for sure. But isn’t there something also to be said for team dynamics?

Micah: Sure.

Laura: The kind of team you want to have? So my question for you, Micah, is on a sports team, would a team captain typically pick the B athlete who’s a good team player over the A athlete who’s kind of an ass and doesn’t work well with anyone else?

Micah: Depends on the captain, depends on what kind of team they want, depends whether or not they want to win…

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: No, it’s hard to say, because you don’t know what situations are going to present themselves throughout the course of the season. And that question, Laura, actually raised another one for me, which is why don’t Quidditch teams have benches? You think about how physical this sport is, how dangerous it is. Injury is so prevalent.

Eric: We hear about it all the time.

Micah: And then when somebody’s knocked out, they’re out for that game. It’s not like you can sub somebody else in to take their place. And so this is a situation where I could almost see you having McLaggen as a backup to Ron, or Ron as a backup to McLaggen, depending on maybe who you’re playing against, right? Your opponent always dictates your roster in a lot of situations.

Andrew: Yeah, and there’s only seven people on a Quidditch team. That means seven people in each Hogwarts House get to actually play competitive Quidditch…

Micah: Right.

Andrew: … which doesn’t seem right. You should have probably 14 people…

Eric: At least.

Andrew: … a backup for each role. Yeah, I love that point, especially because of how dangerous Quidditch is. And not to mention how dangerous the whole darn school is! If you’re not getting injured in Quidditch, you’re getting injured because of something else happening at Hogwarts.

Eric: “Yeah, sorry, I just came here from Care of Magical Creatures class, and Hagrid’s got his half-giant brother, or full-giant brother teaching it now, and I’ve lost my arm. I’m sorry, I can’t… I got crushed.”

Andrew: Have I mentioned we have a Security Consultant hat for sale?

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Eric: No, they should have a bench. The unspoken thing here, though, too, is Cormac went first in these trials, and Hermione deliberately interfered with the fifth goal. Maybe others, but he managed to succeed. If Cormac had gotten a perfect score, Ron’s nerves would have been through the roof, right? There’s actually not a guarantee that Ron gets all five the way that he does with… I mean, maybe the reason Ron did so well is he’s like, “There’s a chance. There’s a chance I could outperform him. I gotta do it.” If Cormac had done so impressively as he was on track to do, maybe Ron didn’t even get five, and then what would Harry do?

Andrew: Also, one more comment about this whole team mindset: So we’re talking about who does Harry want on his team? We could also take this team question into a larger picture, more of a bird’s eye view. Harry has selected Hermione for his team getting through his seven years at Hogwarts. Hermione will be a little bad to get what she wants, or what the trio wants. We’ve seen other examples of Hermione having a bit of a bad side, like trapping Rita in a jar, or Marietta Edgecombe’s face, that little charm or curse that she put on the signup sheet.

Eric: She’s still wearing it, yeah.

Andrew: His teammate, Hermione, did that during Quidditch tryouts, and here are the results.

Eric: So there’s a little bit of hypocrisy there from Harry.

Andrew: Well, and almost like he supports it. He had a smirk, doesn’t he, in the scene when he’s confronting Hermione about it?

Laura: Well, yeah, he doesn’t like Cormac.

Andrew: He’s not mad.

Eric: No, he doesn’t like Cormac, but it betrays Harry’s better nature to look at Cormac and say, “I’m sorry, it’s down to goals. Ron did better, so he’s Keeper.” That betrays what’s really going on, which is Harry doesn’t like Cormac. And Harry could easily say, “Cormac, you’re too over the top, even though you and Ron both did five goals” or whatever. Say that happened; he has to make the decision. It’s still going to go to Ron. And Cormac is the kind of jerk who would absolutely shout at him, “Oh, favoritism this, somebody that…” and what’s Harry going to do? But I think the stronger reaction would have been to say, “Actually, no, you’re not a fit for this team. Even if you scored better than Ron, I don’t want you on this team because you’re too much of a name drop, or too much of an ass.”

Andrew: That’s the role of the captain. You have to have those hard conversations.

Eric: Yeah, exactly, so shying away from it, Harry doesn’t learn anything.

Micah: If McLaggen was maybe a little bit quicker on the uptake, he could have raised, “Hey, I felt something. Something weird happened on that one goal.” But he doesn’t choose to do that, which actually, to me, is kind of surprising, because if he is that good, presumably he would notice that somebody did something which caused him to move in one direction or another.

Eric: Maybe that’s Hermione’s skill level.

Laura: Yeah, that is surprising.

Micah: And this is also very reminiscent of Chamber of Secrets when the rogue Bludger is attacking Harry.

Laura: Right. Oh, that’s a great connection.

Eric: So I’m concerned that Hermione maybe even put herself at risk. If she had been caught doing what she was doing, if it wasn’t just Ron making an offhand comment, Harry noticing Hermione turns pink, Harry confronting Hermione… truly anybody next to Hermione… I mean, I guess she must have mastered the nonverbal version of the Confundus spell, because nobody points at Hermione. So why is it that Hermione should go so far to put it out? Does she do it because she loves Ron? Does she do it because she cares about the Gryffindor Quidditch team getting along and having the right people on it? This is sticking her neck out, and I’m curious what we think her motives are.

Laura: I think it’s mostly because she… I don’t know if she’s fully figured out what her feelings are for Ron yet, but I think they’re definitely flowering for sure, so whether consciously or subconsciously, I think that’s the main reason that she did it. And maybe the reasoning she’s telling herself to give Harry a reason is to say, “Oh, well, you wouldn’t want to work with him anyway, and I don’t want my friends to have to deal with somebody really annoying like that.”

Andrew: That, and I think she believes in Ron. He is a good Quidditch player. He does well during the tryouts; it’s not like he did terrible.

Laura: Yeah, she just doesn’t know that he’s going to end up being an alcoholic one day.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: If you take Cursed Child as canon, anyway.

Eric: Oh, goodness. And so we mentioned earlier that Hagrid was not in the Great Hall, and something that I find interesting is this dynamic of teachers missing lunch or not showing up for meals. My understanding is that the teachers, they sit at the head table. They are all there; they’re all present, probably, for most meals. And so I think of it a few ways, but Hagrid’s absence, to me, would be an inexcusable or unforgivable lack of… professionalism? Not sure if that’s the right word. But think about it this way: If your teacher is in the lunchroom when you’re eating lunch and they’re also eating lunch, you have a chance to go up and ask them a question, right? We don’t hear about any teachers having office hours, so maybe seeing them in the cafeteria is how you do that. If Hagrid is missing lunches because he’s still upset with the trio – which is a stretch; there’s other things going on – but he shouldn’t be allowed to simply not show up, because that’s putting the other students at a loss. Does that make sense?

Andrew: Yeah, I do think it would be good for the teachers to always be there. Okay, there’s exceptions from time to time – you’re sick, you have an appointment, whatever else – but I think by having all the teachers there all the time, it implies House and school unity. It’s like, “We’re all in this together.” I do like the office hours idea. I think having teachers missing on the reg is not a good look for how they feel about their fellow faculty or the students, like, “I don’t want to be around these people.”

Eric: Exactly.

Andrew: They have the break room; they can go there when they want.

Laura: Wait, where else have we gone to school where it was mandatory for teachers to eat in the cafeteria with students every single time? I just have to think we would all want the occasional break from eating every meal in the school cafeteria surrounded by children.

Micah: Yeah, maybe we go to the staff room. Maybe we go eat our lunch outside, if it’s nice. We have the ability to do that because we’re adults. I just feel like it would get old very quick, right?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But I don’t know. That’s at least my impression, is that they’re all always in there, because it’s such a point that Hagrid and Dumbledore haven’t been this year.

Micah: Maybe not lunch, but maybe… dinner seems more of a appropriate time for everybody to be there. But there’s stuff going on during the day. Who knows? Maybe they’re teaching an extra course or something.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I like the dinner idea, because you think about family dinners. Maybe you’re not all eating breakfast or lunch together because of your schedules, but typically, at least here in America, you have dinner as a family at the end of the day.

Eric: Well, they all live here too. They all live at Hogwarts.

Andrew: Right. They’re a family.

Micah: That’s the thing; they see them all the time. They all live together.

Laura: Right.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Why do they need to be in the meal room every day?

Andrew: Okay, so just dinners. So what is going on with Hagrid?

Eric: It turns out that in addition to the trio’s snub of him – we’ve got an excellent email coming up about that – it turns out Aragog is unwell, Aragog being Hagrid’s oldest friend and somebody that he raised from very young with him, came with him probably to Hogwarts, or through… what is it, a traveler’s pocket? Maybe Newt Scamander gives a first or second year old Hagrid the spider? Well, he’s not well, traveling into the forest is dangerous, and after the children apologize for not taking his class this year, Hagrid actually positively breaks down and says, “I don’t know what I’d do when he’s gone.” And even though they find it difficult to feel overly too sad, Ron and Harry having actually met Aragog, and moreover, his family, and nearly escaped with their lives – thanks, car – they still feel bad for him. I mean, seeing a grown adult man, and especially somebody that you care about or a teacher you like, or however you want to phrase that, breaking down crying because of grief is earth-shattering, shaking, and not just because Hagrid is tall.

Micah: There’s a lot of immaturity, though, that is going on in this scene with Hagrid. I’m not trying to dismiss what you were talking about, Eric, with respect to Aragog, because clearly, beasts mean just as much to Hagrid, if not more so, than humans do. And so I think there’s definitely a very emotional connection there, and he has every right to be feeling the way that he’s feeling. But the way that he is choosing to behave towards Harry, Ron, and Hermione because they chose not to take his class… again, I understand they’re friends, and I think that this is where the line blurs a little bit between friend and professor. Hagrid doesn’t really know how to behave like an adult; he very much behaves like a child. And this could also speak to whether or not we feel like he’s qualified to be a professor; I know we’ve talked about that quite a bit on the show.

Andrew: Yeah, this is tough for me, because Harry, Ron, and Hermione are so close with Hagrid, so I understand why Hagrid would be frustrated that they weren’t attending his class. But yeah, I think Hagrid needs to be the adult here and be like, “That’s life; people are not going to take my class.” And maybe he should look inward and think, “Well, what could I have done differently that would have inspired them to take my Care of Magical Creatures class?” And it’s also like he, the adult, shouldn’t burden the kids with his drama. Honestly, Aragog, okay…

Micah: He does that a lot.

Eric: Oh. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, he does that a lot. He needs to find some friends who are adults.

Eric: Right, the problem with him doing that a lot is there’s nobody else, right? So it’s like, if he had friends, he wouldn’t be crossing, I guess, the invisible line there of… they could just support him as students and friends, and not his entire emotional caregiver.

Laura: It doesn’t justify anything, but Hagrid is socially and emotionally stunted because of what happened to him when he was a young teen at Hogwarts. But I think it’s really valid to point out that at this point in time, Hagrid’s got to be pushing 70. He’s not… because it was, what, 50 years since the Chamber was opened in Chamber of Secrets, which was five years ago? Hagrid was 13 when it happened? So the math ain’t mathin’, but I think a lot of that can be chalked up to the fact that Hagrid just didn’t really get to grow up and have the kinds of experiences that his peers did, and so yeah, he is going to be more immature. I think he does come around, though, in conversation, because it becomes immediately clear that there’s something else going on that’s bothering him, and it feels like he’s kind of using his frustration at the trio as a bit of armor.

Eric: Yeah, that for sure is the case, because as soon as Hermione ushers even the tiniest little apology: “Hagrid, we couldn’t fit it in our schedules…” She’s pulling that out of her bum; nobody ever cares. Hagrid is like, “Oh, I always assumed that it would get tough the older you got to fit it into your schedule.” So he’s accepting her apology almost preemptively. It’s like, as soon as there was pretext for any excuse at all, he’s like, “I guess it’s all right. I guess I figured that makes sense.” Well, here’s actually an email that we got from Meg about this subject, and I would read it in full, because it reminds me of things that I long forgot about.

Andrew: Meg says,

“Hi, MuggleCast. Here’s something that’s been jumping out to me during this reread of Book 6: Why does Hermione drop Care of Magical Creatures? Considering how passionate she is about SPEW and the wellbeing of house-elves, it’s surprising to me that she has no interest in continuing a class about creatures. It’s true that house-elves are classified as beings, and thus would not be a topic covered in Care of Magical Creatures, but they are still technically creatures – and considering how after Hogwarts Hermione ends up working in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, wouldn’t you think she would have prioritized getting a NEWT in the Hogwarts class that covers creatures?

In Chapter 11, she tells Hagrid that she, Harry, and Ron all really wanted to carry on with the class, but they couldn’t fit it into their schedules. This is undoubtedly true, most of all for Hermione, but throughout the series we see her show much more passion for creatures than she does for Arithmancy or Ancient Runes. And sure, maybe at the time of dropping Hagrid’s class, she didn’t realize she ultimately wanted to work in that specific Ministry department – but I just imagine her sometime after the series sharing the news with Hagrid that she’s been offered a position there and him being extremely proud, but also responding, “Bu’ Hermione, if yeh care so much abou’ magical creatures, why did yeh drop Care of Magical Creatures?” Would love to hear your thoughts, Meg.”

Eric: Well, Southern Hagrid sounds good.

Laura: I love how Southern Hagrid is back. [laughs]

Andrew: I have a bit of a cold.

Micah: I’ve passed the baton.

Eric: I love it.

Andrew: No, it’s a great question, but I think it kind of speaks to the respect that Hermione has for Hagrid as a teacher.

Micah: Which isn’t much.

Andrew: If this was a teacher she… yeah, exactly. If she had more respect…

Micah: No, I agree with you, because look at Trelawney. She doesn’t value… I’m going to be careful here with how I characterize Trelawney and Hagrid, since I’m lumping them together. But I think she has a standard, and if she doesn’t feel as if a teacher reaches that standard, then she doesn’t feel the need to take their class.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, that’s a good point, honestly. But I just think it’s interesting, because if her destiny is to be the Department of Magical Creatures Control and Regulation, and then Minister for Magic, it is kind of funny that she skips out on the last two years of magical creatures schooling.

Laura: Who among us is doing anything related to what we studied in school?

Eric: Augh.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Hermione ends up hitting it pretty close to the mark, if you think about it.

Eric: Let’s see, going back 21 years… I guess I was doing MuggleCast when I was a junior, and now I’m still doing MuggleCast, so does that count?

Andrew: I mean, I was in TV Tech, and now I do a lot of video editing, so that’s…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But yes, I see your point.

Eric: The point is well-received. And this is another mark of their friendship with Hagrid, but the way that this hangout ends is sort of toxic and disappointing, and it’s basically… the trio all decide to take turns lying their faces off about how horrible Grubbly-Plank is as a teacher, and this cheers Hagrid up so much that he temporarily forgets all about Aragog and all of his woes. And I’m just thinking it shouldn’t be up to them to lie about Grubbly-Plank to make Hagrid feel okay about himself. We’d all do it for a friend, but it’s kind of a shame that that is what has to happen, I think.

Laura: Well, I mean, we’re never going to see Grubbly-Plank again in the books, so I guess… for the plot.

Eric: [laughs] Nobody’s giving her a rebuttal. I mean, here’s the thing, is if I were a teacher and somebody else said this other teacher was better than you at teaching, I would try and improve my teaching and not just assume…

Laura: Or try to learn from that person.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I think as adults, it’s easier for us to look back on this with a little bit more of a critical lens and be disappointed in the trio for saying these types of things about Grubbly-Plank, but if we were a little bit younger, I feel like we probably – or even the age of Harry, Ron, and Hermione – would probably be in the same boat as them, where Hagrid is our friend, and we just want to cheer him up and we want to make him feel better, and if it takes trashing another teacher, why not?

Andrew: I think it’s worth it, yeah. I think that’s the easy way to go.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: And it’s effective, as we see.

Micah: I mean, we know she’s a good professor; we’ve heard other students speak so highly of her. But my question is, are they only speaking so highly of her because the standard from Hagrid is so low?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. Oh, that’s true too. It kind of reminds me of when your friend breaks up with somebody, and then you want to take the side of your friend, so you’re like, “Oh, that person wasn’t great anyway, x, y, z…”

Eric: “I always hated them.”

Andrew: Even if it wasn’t true. Yeah, even if what you’re saying isn’t true, you just say it to make them feel better, [laughs] especially if the breakup was messy.

Eric: It’s very human nature-y, yeah.


Odds & Ends


Eric: Well, awesome. We have a number of odds and ends from this chapter, and making the connections between different books. One of the ones that I want to lead with is that when they’re first outside his hut, Hagrid comes out of the woods, sees a group of people, he doesn’t know who they are, they’re with Buckbeak, and he shouts at them and says, “Hey, get away from him; he’ll hurt you!” And I was thinking, did Hagrid’s heart just skip a beat? Because this is not only a hippogriff, but this is the same hippogriff that has injured a student before, and all of a sudden, there’s a student – a group of students – really close to Buckbeak, and in fact, petting him when Hagrid comes out. So did Hagrid have an “Oh my God” moment right here? [laughs]

Andrew: I bet that is why he was partly defensive. But it also just makes you think that the beast would be magically tagged in some way to know their true identities, that this is actually Buckbeak. You would think the Ministry would have some sort of control.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: That’s too logical.

Andrew: Oh, sorry.

Laura: They wouldn’t be able to have so many security nightmares if they took those kinds of regulations seriously.

Eric: You’re right; we wouldn’t get to play the sound effect as much if they were more grown up.

Andrew: I wanted to mention that the Daily Prophet says Stan Shunpike was taken into custody on suspicions of Death Eater activity, but wouldn’t people have a hard time believing he’s a Death Eater, considering he’s a somewhat well-known figure in the wizarding world? At least, I would think. He’s handling a lone mass transportation vehicle in the wizarding world; you would think a lot of people know and trust this guy. And when we’ve been rereading over the last couple years, I like to think about what the average person is thinking outside of the characters that we hear, and if you’re at home reading about Stan Shunpike, I would think you’re putting the paper down and being like, “Really? This guy?”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “Especially now that we trust Harry?” It just doesn’t check out. So anyway, I just wanted to rant about that for a second.

Eric: No, maybe that’s the fear, because you don’t know who it could be, right? So you’re like, “Oh man, if the guy who runs the Knight Bus is not safe…”

Andrew: Who is, yeah.

Eric: “… then I can never take the Knight Bus again.”

Andrew: Yeah, and the trio do note that the Ministry probably wants to show people that they are taking some action, so there is that. But still, Stan Shunpike is not a believable suspect to me.

Laura: They probably have quotas they have to hit. Anyway.

Micah: Yeah. Well, one other bit of news that we do get in this chapter is that Hannah Abbott’s mother has been murdered, and so this continues that trend, as we’ve seen, where some of the students’ family members at Hogwarts are being captured or being killed by Death Eaters, by Voldemort, and yeah, just a sad point in this chapter.

Laura: It felt like such a random diversion from what we were reading about in the moment, because it’s a sentence.

Micah: Right.

Laura: It literally says something along the lines of, “As a matter of fact, Hannah Abbott got pulled out of Herbology the other day because her mom turned up dead,” and then it dropped the topic and kept moving on to something else. I was like, “Whoa.”

Eric: “Then they left the Gryffindor table five minutes later to head down…” It was like, “Oh, God. Okay. All right.”

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: Another thing that we just probably want to keep tabs on is that despite getting a new copy of Advanced Potion-Making, Harry makes the decision to keep the old meat of the book. He swaps the covers and returns the version that is brand new to Slughorn. So he’s still going to keep up these antics, at least for the foreseeable future.

Andrew: Good!

Eric: Sneaky, sneaky.

Micah: And then finally, for me, we know that Harry does mention something to Arthur Weasley just before getting on the Hogwarts Express about Draco, and Arthur follows through on this tip. We hear about it in the Daily Prophet that there was a raid on Malfoy Manor. Nothing suspicious was turned up, but good on Arthur for actually believing what Harry said and believing in him enough to follow through on it, because there was that stretch where Harry was just not getting any support at all.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Two things really satisfy me about this news article in the Daily Prophet. One is that Lucius Malfoy is openly referred to as Death Eater. That’s very exciting, right? Because for the longest time, he had some level of standing, and right now you just see his name right next to “Death Eater, Lucius Malfoy.” That’s very satisfying. Second is that although it doesn’t affect the plot of this book – they don’t raid and confiscate anything that will prevent Malfoy from doing what he’s doing this year – nevertheless, Harry has already told Mr. Weasley about the drawing room floor secret passageway or whatever, and so what this means is they probably have pretty thoroughly, actually gotten rid of a ton of Dark stuff from Malfoy Manor, and that, to me, is satisfying. They might not have turned up anything new this time, but you know what that means? It means they got it all on previous raids. Surely, there was a raid after Lucius was arrested. So that’s satisfying to me, is knowing that they have fewer Dark objects just laying around Malfoy Manor. Speaking of objects just laying around, my final connecting the thread here is actually about the Time-Turners. You guys, I forget that this whole “All of the Time-Turners were destroyed” is actually in the books! I always assumed it was something the author said in some interview somewhere, but this is in the books. It happens with Hagrid. Hagrid says, “If you applied for Time-Turners, maybe you would have been able to take my class,” and Hermione says, “We couldn’t have done. We smashed the entire stock of Ministry Time-Turners when we were there last summer. It was in the Daily Prophet.” My question is, can we trust the Daily Prophet on this? Why is there an article? What does the article say? “Oh, we have to halt studies of time because there aren’t any Time-Turners now, everybody. Sorry about that.” Why would that be a thing that you publish? It’s from the Department of Mysteries. The Unspeakables work there. Nobody would have ever found out about the Time-Turners, or the fact that they were all destroyed. Why are they reporting on it? The fact that they are reporting on it in the Daily Prophet makes me more suspicious that there aren’t any Time-Turners, that some may remain.

Laura: Yeah, I think this was conveniently written in because the author realized this could be a pretty big plot hole, which, I mean, made sense until Cursed Child came along.

Eric: And there were two secret prototype whatever Time-Turners! I’m just saying, why publish anything about it at all? That seems suspicious to me.

Andrew: It does seem like a big deal for all the Time-Turners to be destroyed, so I guess that could be a reason they want to. And I can see why Hermione buys it, because she was there. She saw the mess that they made.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: But you would still think, “Maybe, okay, one would have survived.”

Eric: “We did that.”

Andrew: Yeah, “We did that.”

Micah: And who’s to say you don’t know how to create more, or that somebody somewhere doesn’t know how to create more?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: They had to be created sometime.

Andrew: Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

Micah: But I like what Laura said, though, about the plot hole, because I think that it’s really for us as readers, more than anything else, to let us know that this is not going to be coming up the rest of the series.

Andrew: Maybe two Time-Turners had a Time-Turner baby, and the Prophet and the Ministry didn’t know about that Time-Turner baby, and that’s the prototype.

Eric: I’m going to write a fanfiction.

Micah: Time-Turner baby.

Laura: When two Time-Turners love each other very much…

Andrew: [laughs] “They turn back time…”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Oh my God. Okay, it explains this current timeline we’re living in, then.


Superlative of the Week


Eric: Let’s move on to MVP of the Week. I’m very excited about this one, you guys, because it’s positive toward Hagrid, for anyone thinking we weren’t positive to Hagrid. My question this week is what is the best creature that Hagrid was responsible for introducing the kids to, even if it’s by accident?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to say Fluffy. I was always fascinated by that three-headed dog, and I used to have this Hallmark toy that sat on your floor, and it was motion-activated, so if somebody walked into your bedroom, Fluffy would bark. And so this was…

Laura: I’ve heard of that.

Micah: Which head?

Andrew: Which head? I don’t know which head. But it just felt like my own little security system at my childhood bedroom. [laughs] So for those reasons, Fluffy.

Eric: My favorite creature that Hagrid introduced them to is Norbert (Norberta), the Norwegian Ridgeback, because despite being the most illegal thing Hagrid has ever done, I will bet that fewer than 20 wizards alive can say they’ve ever seen a dragon hatch from an egg. That has to be such a unique experience; dragons themselves are rare, but watching one hatch, that is a lifelong experience that they will remember forever. Thanks, Hagrid.

Micah: I went with the Nifflers, first because this is one of the, if not the best, lesson that Hagrid actually gives to the students, and they end up torturing Umbridge in Order of the Phoenix.

Laura: And they’re still so damn cute, even when they’re torturing Umbridge.

Micah: They are.

Laura: I went with Thestrals, first of all because Thestrals are just hella cool, and I will not hear any slander against them. Honestly, my favorite part about Hogwarts Legacy to this day is managing my magical creatures menagerie.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I have a whole tribe. I have a whole pack of Thestrals that I tend to. But also, they end up being such an integral part of the plot in the climax of Book 5. So whether Hagrid knew it or not, he was introducing something really integral with the Thestrals.

Eric: Aw, I love that. I thought that was a really good topic for an MVP.

Andrew: We love you, Hagrid.

Eric: Yeah, thank you, Hagrid.


Lynx Line


Eric: So let’s move on to our Lynx Line segment. Of course, this is when we ask our Slug Club members over on our Patreon to submit their answer to each week’s question that ties into our discussion. And in this chapter, we see Hermione do Ron a pretty big favor, which leads to him winning the tryouts for Gryffindor Keeper, so our Lynx Line question is: Have you ever helped a friend swing the odds in their favor to get something that they wanted, whether it was a job, winning a contest, or something else? And did you technically cheat or bend the rules to do it for them? We’re really asking our patrons to lay it all out on the line.

Andrew: Mev said,

“Years ago, my work mate got accepted to university. She needed to go finalize her enrollment, but our boss did not let her go. I argued with him and said that he may be ruining her future, etc. After that he let her go enroll and work part time so she can study.”

Nice.

Eric: Aw, good looking out. Matthew says,

“The best people do these things. They help their friends while hanging back to let them shine. So… uh… not me.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: All right, Matthew.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I’ll take the next two, I guess. Forty says, “Nice try, FBI.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Oh, good point.

Laura: Oh, man. You’re on to us.

Micah: And then Rachel says,

“The instance that first came to mind was when I was a camp counselor at a place I’d attended as a camper for years. It was an equestrian camp, and a girl I’d bunked with the year before was back again. I knew which horse she really wanted for the week, so when it came time for the counselors to assign horses, I gave a very compelling argument for why she should get that horse. The other counselors agreed!”

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Eric: This one warms my heart, and I think it’s exactly the sort of thing we’re looking for in this question. It’s like, “Okay, is that cheating? No, it’s looking out, I think.”

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: Megan says,

“I think this is what everyone does in the professional world; ‘It’s not what you know, it’s who you know’! Aside from ‘networking’ (one of my most dreaded phrases), I have been on numerous interview panels and *may* have prepped one of my friends for the interview process and repeatedly sang her praises to my boss to help her get hired. Unfortunately for ME, she decided to stay at her former position.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I think that’s pretty normal, to put in a good word for someone. But just, you know, make sure that you’re actually confident in that good word.

Eric: And make sure they want the job. Oh, goodness. That just… that’s sad, but I appreciate this being shared, because yeah, sometimes it doesn’t work out for reasons having nothing to do with you.

Andrew: And finally, Kyle said,

“Failed to disclose that someone was a friend when they were interviewing to join a show I was working on as I enthusiastically recommended them.”

Well, y’all are good friends. Thanks, everybody who participated in that Lynx Line question.

Micah: Well, most of them are good friends. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. You can participate in the Lynx Line by visiting Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and we ask a new Lynx Line question pretty much every week. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube or social media, whatever’s convenient for you. And next week, we continue our Half-Blood Prince discussion with Chapter 12, “Silver and Opals.” Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media channels, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, you can listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: Which British Queen popularized lockets during her reign, often wearing lockets to commemorate her friends and loved ones? The answer that we were looking for is Queen Victoria, but Queen Elizabeth also had some stuff to do with lockets. So 57% of the people with the correct answer said they did not look this up, and this week’s winners were Ashley B.; Bort Voldemort; Cormac McBraggin’; Don’t Worry, Snape, I get Crampy and Crabby Too; If DanRad is a short king, am I a medium king? (5 foot 10); Ingrid; Monochrome Queen; Newtoo Quizzitch; Prince Albert in a Can; Secunda!; Teacher of Muggles; Turtleman; The Selected Learners United for Gifting, a.k.a. the SLUG Club; Zombie Queen Elizabeth II; and, of course, Tofu Tom. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 11 of Book 6, Ron asks Hagrid what his barrel full of grubs will grow into, and Hagrid doesn’t say. In real life, grubs are the larval stage of what type of insect? So submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. That’s the easiest way to submit. And when you’re on our website, if you’re popping around, checking out transcripts or must listens or anything else at all, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.

Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Micah: Bye.

Laura: Bye, y’all. See you next time.

Eric: Happy 2026!

Transcript #733

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #733, Unhinged 2026 Potter Predictions, Learning Voldemort’s Name, And More MuggleMail


Cold Open


Eric: There was a large group, and we snuck out to the back of the room, and that was when he – my cousin Frank – told me what the F-word meant, and it’s…

Andrew: Fudge. Very bad, terrible Prime Minister.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Because I didn’t know. You knew you weren’t supposed to say it, but you didn’t know. And that was when I learned… fudge.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, closing out our 20th year of this podcast, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, as we wind down 2025, we’re taking questions and comments from you, our listeners. It’s time for another Muggle Mailbag.


Fandom Predictions for 2026


Andrew: But before that, since it’s our final episode of the year, panel, why don’t we look ahead to 2026? I think it’s fun to make some fandom predictions, and then we can look back this time next year and see if we got any of them right. I don’t think we did this last year, so I think it’ll be fun to do this. Here’s my first question about 2026: Will we hear about the Hogwarts Legacy sequel? There’s been rumors for a while that it’s going to happen. That game has now sold 40 million copies, by the way; they announced that the other day. So will we hear about the sequel in 2026?

Eric: Yeah, I think we’ll hear that it’s been… it’ll be an officially greenlit project. I don’t know that we’ll hear much more, probably not plot, even, but that’s my expectation. And did they already release the director’s cut edition that was teased?

Andrew: No, so maybe that will come in 2026.

Eric: Maybe by 2027 they’ll fix the butterflies, or the things you chase around. The lightning bugs.

Laura: Oh, the moths?

Eric: The moths. I was so close.

Laura: Yeah, I know. I still have one that is bugged out, and I can’t get it. It’s so annoying.

Micah: I don’t see why we wouldn’t get some news on the followup, because the original came out in 2023, and would imagine that they’ve been working on it. I would even say that a release date probably is not that far off.

Laura: I think we may get a release date, but I don’t think it’ll be anything more than that. I think that would be the best news we could get.

Andrew: I’ll go ahead and predict we’ll hear about a release date, too, and some details. Next prediction question I have for y’all: Will we receive a Harry Potter TV show release date announcement by the end of 2026? We’re not going to see the show next year, but will we get an announcement? A specific date? I’m going to say yes.

Laura: I mean, yeah, I would hope so, because they’ve been saying early 2027, right? So yeah, we’ve got to have a release date. Although I’m not convinced we’re getting it in early 2027.

Eric: I think that we will get a date by the end of next year, but that between now and then, it’ll get delayed again.

Micah: I think we’ll get a release date. I also think we’ll get a teaser trailer by the end of 2026.

Andrew: Ooh. Okay, all right, get ready for that MuggleCast episode. One thing we do know for sure, setting aside the video game and the TV show, is that the Half-Blood Prince illustrated edition will be released October 2026. They’ve already announced that. This is the Jim Kay but no longer Jim Kay illustrated series, so if you’ve been collecting those – and I have – you’ll have that to look forward to in the new year. Any other predictions, y’all?

Eric: Hmm.

Laura: Not for me. I’m excited to see what the year brings. Trying to be optimistic. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I think it has to do with… we touched recently on… you guys recorded that video on the merger – potential merger – with Netflix or Paramount and Warner Bros., and I think that however that nets out will determine whether we get an influx of more news. I’m thinking about when Disney bought Lucasfilm, and all of a sudden they started greenlighting left and right new Star Wars projects, and they kept mentioning there were all these new series in development and all this other stuff. I very much foresee that sort of thing happening if a merger goes through, just because they’re going to want to monetize as soon as possible the IPs that they just bought. And if that doesn’t happen, then I’d like to see actually less news, because it means that Warner Bros. is just focusing on making the TV show the best it can be.

Andrew: I’m going to say that merger isn’t going to go through until this time next year, at best, and then maybe sometime in early ’27 we’ll start hearing about those other spinoffs that you’re referencing, Eric, because they’re going to need time to figure out what they want to do.

Micah: Do you think we’ll find out who is playing Voldemort in 2026?

Andrew: Oooh, yes.

Eric: But not Peeves.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: I predict that Peeves will be kept a secret until… the first episode that he’s in will air, and it’ll be a total secret.

Andrew: Okay, well, I also have some unhinged predictions for 2026.

Eric: Ooh!

Andrew: Yeah, I’m feeling a little funky, and I thought, “Let’s just throw anything at the wall and see what sticks.” We know the Wizarding World is always expanding. We know they always want to add new stuff to the Wizarding World. So my first unhinged prediction is they’re going to launch a new TV show, actually, called Harry Potter: Wizards of Drinking, and this is a spinoff of the cooking show Wizards of Baking, which now has two seasons, so it’s clearly doing well.

Micah: I’m here for it.

Laura: Yeah, I declare canon.

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

Laura: I mean, this is very much in line. There’s a lot of drinking in these books.

Eric: And in the fandom, right?

Andrew: Yes!

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I mean, I’ve had a college butterbeer recipe since I was in college, so it’s… and I love to share it.

Andrew: Yeah, this would be like an HBO show, I think. It’s less family friendly, but Wizards of Drinking would be a lot of fun. Okay, my next unhinged prediction is we will get a new Harry Potter book series. Yes, you heard right. This is a gender-bent Harry Potter series. Now, I think this for two reasons: First of all, J.K. Rowling is obsessed with gender, and it’s already been done for Twilight fans! Stephanie Meyer did a gender-bent Twilight. It’s hard to imagine this really happened, but it did; it was called Life and Death. And I think the gender-bent Harry Potter would star Harietta, Rae, and Hermon. That was the best name I could think for a male Hermione.

Eric: Hermon!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, poor Hermon. I already feel bad for him.

Andrew: Well, we also know that there’s a lot of editions of the core Harry Potter books. We’ve had the illustrated editions; we’ve had the full cast editions; the basic audiobook editions, with respect to Jim Dale and Stephen Fry…

Eric: Right.

Andrew: We’ve had 3-D versions, spinoffs, pop-out editions with the MinaLima editions… I think they are just going to merge everything and do a Harry Potter, the illustrated full cast audiobook 3-D pop-out editions. Why not?

Eric: Amazing.

Andrew: We already… they’ve got to come up with new editions. They have so many. Why not this too?

Eric: And you have to carry the book around when you’re… they’re going to revive Wizards Unite, and you’re going to have to carry the book around to capture beasts that have escaped from your book.

Andrew: Oh, and Eric, just for you, they’re going to start splitting the books into Part 1 and Part 2 to further squeeze money out of us.

Eric: Thank you! I was going to make that joke a minute ago for the illustrated, but if they didn’t do it for Order, you guys, it’s not going to happen. I think it’s safe to say that that was misguided or simply incorrect on my part. I had high hopes for that.

Andrew: And then finally, Wizards After Dark. So catering to the OG Harry Potter fans who are now at least in their 30s, including us, I think Warner Bros. is going to continue to expand their vast official Harry Potter merchandise lineup with a new line of romantic Harry Potter toys.

Laura: Oh.

Eric: I support this 100% in terms of as a crazy theory. It made me laugh, made me chuckle, and I even, Andrew, came up with a pitch that I think you would appreciate for their first official Wizards After Dark product.

Andrew: Go ahead.

Eric: You remember the vibrating broomstick?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s in my closet right now.

Eric: Now it’s foldable and it fits in your purse.

Andrew: Oh, like a travel size. Okay.

Eric: Wizards After Dark. And I think you’re right, because there’s an upper limit to how much different merchandise they can possibly come up with. They’ve been doing official merch for 25 years now, with the flagship store in New York, the Chicago store, other stores worldwide, the Universal parks… everything. They’ve got to be hitting an upper limit of all the PG and PG-13ish rated possible merch that they could ever come up with has now been done. They have no choice but to make everything a little bit more adult.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know. I just remember back in the day when J.K. Rowling and Warner Bros. went after some of the more adult Harry Potter fanfiction websites, so I don’t think I see this one flying, but we’ll see.

Andrew: Well, the fans were younger, most of them, but we’ve aged up now. We need to be, let’s say, entertained at this age.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Micah, would you buy any Wizards After Dark merchandise?

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I would have to see the product line first, but I’m open to it.

Andrew: Okay. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. Well, what do…?

Micah: I think you have to add in a word that starts with N, so that you could have the acronym WAND. Wizards After something Dark.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: I’m just trying to help you market here, Andrew.

Andrew: A Wizard’s Wand Work. Wizards Looking… I don’t… okay. Well, we’ll think about that during our break.

Micah: Okay. No, these are all really great ideas. As we were talking about it, it made me think a little bit, though, that Warner Bros., they need a splash in 2026. You can’t go an entire year without having something, and I feel like probably for them… and is this really them, at the end of the day? Epic Universe was their big moment in 2025, right, for the Harry Potter franchise overall? I don’t know if you can go an entire year without having something to entice the fanbase.

Andrew: So what do we at MuggleCast have planned for this show in 2026? We are excited to share that in the new year, we will start looking forward and back on the Wizarding World in a couple of exciting new segments and episodes. First, we are planning TV show-focused episodes of MuggleCast releasing once a month that will help you get ready for this major new series, and we will be releasing separate content looking back at the fandom with deeper dives on earlier Harry Potter content, like specific video games, fandom events, spinoff books, and much more. And we’re still ironing out details about these two things, but stay tuned for more information in the new year. We know people are very excited about the Harry Potter TV show, and we want to hang out in that excitement with you. So we have some ideas for how to cover, again, what’s coming in Harry Potter, and what we’ve loved about Harry Potter in the new year.

Eric: That’s something that I’ll say is very… makes me proud, too, is that we’re closing out, as you say, our 20th year – I don’t know how we got here – but that we’re still excited to continue making the show and continue interacting with our listeners and our patrons who have been so supportive to us throughout the years. So that’s very exciting, leaving… closing out this trainwreck of a year with a lot of positive vibes for our audience specifically.

Andrew: Yeah, and of course, in 2026 we’ll continue through Half-Blood Prince Chapter by Chapter and move on to Deathly Hallows, while also sharing the latest Wizarding World news with you all, so stay tuned.

Eric: Can I just say, Deathly Hallows is the book that I’ve been wanting to do Chapter by Chapter for since we started this Chapter by Chapter three years ago now at this point, because it’s the book that I’ve read the least, and I’m just really excited to reintroduce and really go through it with the freshest eyes that I can. So now I’m enjoying the heck out of our Half-Blood Prince – it’s my second favorite book, after all – but Deathly Hallows is going to be lit, y’all. I’m very excited for Chapter by Chapter for it.

Andrew: I actually think I’ve read Deathly Hallows least, too. Laura, Micah, where do you guys…?

Laura: Same.

Andrew: Really? Deathly Hallows?

Laura: I mean, it makes sense; it’s the last book that came out.

Micah: Probably similarly, I haven’t read it as much as the other books, and I think that’s just a product, too, of us having done Chapter by Chapter for all the other books…

Andrew: True.

Micah: … and Deathly Hallows has kind of been left on the back burner. But I will say, I do feel like we spent a lot of time after Book 7 was released talking about what happened in Book 7; we just didn’t do it chapter by chapter.

Andrew: That’s true.

Eric: Well, we actually did do a Chapter by Chapter, but it was right after.

Micah: Well, we did Chapter by Chapter, but yeah, there’s a lot of additional episodes that you could attribute specifically to Book 7.

Eric: Yeah, it’s been 18 years since we’ve done Chapter by Chapter for Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: So as you can see, we have exciting plans, and need your help to make them happen, and if you want to see this show soar into the new year, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and by joining, you’ll get instant access to two bonus episodes every month, ad-free episodes of everything we do, access to our livestreams, a personal video “Thank you” message from one of the four MuggleCasters, a gift delivered by owl each year, and much more. And I mentioned bonus MuggleCast; Laura, what are we doing this week?

Laura: So actually, we’re going to be looking way back in MuggleCast history this week by not just thinking about MuggleCast, but thinking about the website that brought us all together, MuggleNet.com, because we were all volunteers on that website way back when. It’s how we all met; it’s really the place where we brought together the people who were inspired to create this show. We’re going to talk about some funny, maybe some spicy memories about some of the drama that happened amongst the staff back in the old days, so it should be really fun if you’re interested in the insider baseball of the Harry Potter fandom. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, something new in 2026 we’re also going to be doing on bonus MuggleCast is getting a little more unhinged in those episodes, including more behind-the-scenes looks at the early days of MuggleNet. And you know what? It’s the last episode of the year. To heck with everything, y’all; let’s just pop off on MuggleNet in bonus MuggleCast this week.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear. And also at MuggleCastMerch.com you’ll find a link to our overstock store, where you can find discounted merchandise from years past, including our Cozy Comfy Combo Pack, which offers the MuggleCast beanie and socks at one reduced price, perfect for the colder months out of the year.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: And now let’s get to Muggle Mail, and we’ll start with some voicemails. We’re going to do a mix of feedback today. It’s going to be Order of the Phoenix, Half-Blood Prince, and some reactions to recent news.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast. It’s Robert. I had this thought while I was listening to your final Order of the Phoenix chapter episode, when you were talking about Fudge and his harrumphing around using Voldemort’s name, and I had a thought that I’ve had for a while – and apologies if you’ve brought this up on the show before – but how do children in the ’90s in the wizarding world know what Voldemort’s name is? Because the whole stigma is that no one ever says it. Obviously, he addressed himself as that in the first wizarding war; that’s why everyone’s afraid of referring to him by name. But if nobody ever says his name, and children born after 1981, when he allegedly died, are hearing about these horrible events that happened, are history books writing the name out? Are parents one-and-done saying, ‘Okay, I’m going to tell you what his name was, but don’t ever ask me to say it again, just so you know it, and you know to be scared of it in the future’? How do they know? Dumbledore is not going around house to house, going to every kid, being like, ‘Hey, don’t tell your parents, but Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort. Just keep that in your head.’ I don’t know. It just came to me and I was wondering what you thought.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: That’s a really fun question. I actually would see it sort of as a curse word, where the kids are kind of tempted to say it because the parents don’t want them to say it, and the parents don’t say it either.

Eric: That’s how I feel about it. I was actually going to harken back to this time of year, Christmas era 1994, at my cousin’s house when I first learned what the F-word was. There was a large group, and we snuck out to the back of the room, and that was when he – my cousin Frank – told me what the F-word meant, and it’s…

Andrew: Fudge. Very bad, terrible Prime Minister.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Because I didn’t know. You knew you weren’t supposed to say it, but you didn’t know. And that was when I learned… fudge. So I think it’s like that. I think that it’s… you’re allowed to learn it once, and then… I don’t know; who tells you might be different, but you’re not supposed to say it out loud.

Laura: Yeah, I tend to feel similarly about it, that I think a lot of younger kids might hear about it from older kids, because I agree, it is like a curse word. And probably older kids who were teenagers at the time of the first war, and clearly remember who Voldemort was, I could see them teasing the younger kids and being like, “I bet you don’t know what his name is,” because everybody is so scared of him all the time, talking about You-Know-Who, and I can see younger kids being really pushy about wanting to know who it is. So I think that’s probably most likely what happened.

Andrew: Yeah. Fun question, Robert.

Micah: Yeah, I’d almost be curious how much his name was utilized during the first war, because it seems like very much a post-downfall-of-Voldemort situation where there’s a fear of saying his name because you’re afraid that… it’s almost like the boogeyman, right? You’re afraid that maybe he’s going to show up at your door if you speak his name aloud. And I think the other piece of it, too, is don’t underestimate the ability of children to find out information.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And if your parents – and this goes to the point that was raised earlier – are talking about somebody, and they’re calling him He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, the natural inclination is to find out what that person’s name is.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I’m sure it’s available. You could easily look at the Daily Prophet from back then and find information.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: So actually, I agree. I like Robert’s question a lot, but I feel like the information is much more readily available; it’s more so that these children were told not to say his name.

Andrew: All right, let’s move to this voicemail today from Kaitlin, and it looks like her daughter is auditioning for maybe a TV show or audiobook.

Micah: Yeah, so this is in response to, I think, our previous Muggle Mail episode where we had asked our patrons to submit impersonations. Kaitlin’s came in a little late, but because it’s her daughter, I figured…

Andrew: Ohhh, okay.

Micah: … it’s only appropriate that we give her a shot here.

Andrew: And maybe this is an audition for the Harry Potter illustrated full cast audiobook 3-D pop-out editions, which are definitely happening in 2026. So here we go.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hello. I’m going to say a quote from Hermione in Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone Chapter 9, ‘The Midnight Duel.’ ‘I hope you’re pleased with yourselves. We could have been killed, or worse, expelled. Now, if you two don’t mind, I am going to bed.'”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Very nice. Very nice.

Micah: Well done.

Eric: I think you got the pronunciation. The diction is excellent. I support it. That’s great.

Andrew: And one of very few times in world history where a young girl or boy said, “I’m going to bed,” just on their own accord.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Normally their parents have to say that. So now let’s get to some emails, and we’re going to start with ones focused on Order of the Phoenix. This first one is from Michael concerning Neville and the prophecy.

“Hey, y’all! I just listened to Episode 715 about Order of the Phoenix Chapter 34. When y’all were talking about the prophecy and how Neville told Harry not to pick it up, I was wondering if Neville could have picked it up himself. When the prophecy was made, it could have been about either one: Harry or Neville. When Voldemort tries to kill Harry, he is ‘marking him’ as his equal, and therefore the prophecy becomes about Harry. When it was made, though, it still could’ve been about either boy. Does the physical prophecy change when Voldemort’s actions change destiny? Or is it stuck in the state it was created in, meaning Neville might be able to pick it up? It’s obviously labeled for Harry, but there is some uncertainty implied. What do y’all think?”

Laura: If I recall correctly, the decision to label the prophecy as being about Harry was made after Voldemort marked him.

Eric: Yes.

Laura: So I don’t think it would make a difference to the prophecy itself if it was labeled for Harry or Neville, because it could have been about either one of them.

Eric: The not being able to touch the prophecy is strictly a security feature of the Hall of Prophecy, so when somebody… because I think… Harry reads it and it says Sybill Trelawney’s initials, between Dark Lord and question mark, that then gets crossed off, “and Harry Potter.”

Andrew: Ahh.

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And so up until the point where they wrote “Harry Potter,” Neville would have been able to take it off the shelf, but the only thing I think at question is if they determine that it’s meant for Harry, then Neville wouldn’t be able to take it. But it has nothing to do with the prophecy or the orb that the prophecy is in; it’s just the security feature of being able to pull it off.

Andrew: Right. That was my feeling, too. If Harry’s name is written there, then it’s locked to him. Neville can’t touch it.

Micah: I like it. The next email is from Marije on Arthur death clues, and she says,

“Dear MuggleCast, I’ve been listening for a couple of years now, and listened back to 2018, so I can now enjoy both Book 6 Chapter by Chapters at the same time. I’m really looking forward to it, as it’s my favorite book (together with Prisoner of Azkaban). My question, though, is more related to Book 5. You guys discussed a couple of times how Sirius was set up to die from the beginning, and I definitely see all the foreshadowing in earlier books. That made me wonder, though; the author has mentioned before that she was seriously considering killing Arthur in the snake attack. If she’d really done that, are there ‘hints’ in earlier books that he was about to die that we would’ve interpreted otherwise had he died? I can’t think of anything, but maybe you can? Hope to hear your thoughts. Thanks for all you do. Marije, a Ravenclaw from the Netherlands.”

Andrew: So I have a crackpot theory here. There was foreshadowing while the author was debating killing Arthur, and that came through the Weasley clock when it constantly has the whole family sets at mortal peril. And the phrase “A broken clock is right twice a day” would fit here. So let’s say all the hands are pointed at mortal peril. Fred died, obviously, in Book 7. What if Arthur had died in Book 5? “A broken clock is right twice a day.” That’s two people who died. It ended up being correct. Does that crackpot theory make sense?

Laura: I see where you’re going with it. I think it’s a bit of a stretch for me, though, because of all the hands pointing at mortal peril. I don’t know; I really can’t think of any foreshadowing that might have been woven throughout the earlier books for Arthur. We may have to come back to it, though.

Andrew: I was looking for some ideas; I couldn’t really find anything. This is because people talk about Arthur’s potential death online, and yeah, there wasn’t really clear foreshadowing signs.

Micah: I think the more interesting question was: Would she still have killed Sirius?

Andrew: I don’t think so.

Micah: Would it have been a double dip? And then how would that have played itself out in the rest of the series? I think maybe there are some things that she could have done with Arthur that she did with Sirius, where I think… I’m trying to remember back to Order of the Phoenix, where I think it was Fred and George are messing around and there’s a knife that drops right in front of where Sirius is either standing or sitting, and there’s little clues like that. And I don’t know; maybe she would have written things a little bit more in Arthur’s favor then? It’s hard to say. There weren’t any clues, really, that Cedric was going to bite the dust, and he did, so I don’t think you necessarily need to have…

Eric: Foreshadowing?

Micah: Foreshadowing, or little nuggets.

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t see Arthur and Sirius dying in the same book. That’s too much. You can’t kill two of Harry’s father figures.

Eric: Well, other than Book 7.

Andrew: Yeah, but that’s the end. That’s different.

Eric: This isn’t Book 7, after all, where you get Hedwig and Mad-Eye and Tonks and Lupin and…

Andrew: So to answer your question, Micah, no, I just don’t see them both dying in one book.

Micah: No, but what about what they’re asking about here? I don’t know that it would have been written much differently.

Eric: Yeah, I think that maybe there were moments of foreshadowing that when that plot was decided that Arthur would not die, they were removed. Anything too on the nose would have been caught by the editor or the author and removed. Yeah, because for the most part, I mean, we rarely see Arthur Weasley, and when we do, he’s generally good-natured and happy. If he looks stressed, it’s because work. If he looks pale, it’s because ginger. I would struggle to find any examples of him being marked, supposedly, for death.

Laura: Moving on, we have some comments from Spotify. First one is from Elliot, who left this comment on our “Oh Hell Doe” episode, which was covering Half-Blood Prince Chapter 8, “Snape Victorious.” And Elliot says,

“I think the genius that is Snape often times has hidden meanings within his responses. Telling Harry that Tonks’s Patronus looks weak could have been a subconscious way of trying to give a hint/clue for Harry, connecting with him through his love for his mother Lily. I think Snape often says things that he regrets because of his bitterness and self-loathing, and so he tries to make up for that in his own double, or opposite-meaning Snape-ish sort of way.”

I like it.

Andrew: Yeah, I think this is a good idea. I think Snape wants to sort of get his feelings off his chest, not necessarily to Harry, but clearly this love has driven him kind of mad since the beginning, and he needs to let those feelings out there. So maybe this is one example of letting them out, just ever so slightly.

Eric: Ooh, I don’t know, though. His love for Lily is the linchpin that explains all of his motivations ever that he has to keep from Voldemort, and so I don’t think he would allow himself to slip that big of an easter egg to the son of the woman he loved. I think he doesn’t care about Harry’s wellbeing at all, so he would never, ever, ever tell Harry that, except at the very last moment of his life.

Andrew: I’m not saying that Snape wants to tell Harry; I’m just saying he’s got a lot within him bottled up that he might sort of accidentally let slip out from time to time, because it’s just driving him mad.

Micah: I think he projects it onto other people, though.

Eric: That would make sense.

Micah: That’s what I think is happening in this moment with Tonks, more than anything else. I don’t think that he says things that he really regrets; I think he says things from the point of being bitter or having this self-loathing personality, but I don’t think that he has any real regret in him. Maybe we don’t see that come until Book 7, but I don’t know. I don’t get that vibe from Snape.

Eric: I like it. So this next comment comes from Brittan regarding the episode “Fame W…alrus.”

“I think, too, that it’s important to remember that not all wizards are powerfully magical. We’re hearing about some of the most powerful in their community, but the everyday witch or wizard may not be able to perform a Fidelius Charm or protections for their homes; they may just not be skilled enough. We hear about the Kwikspell course with Filch, so we know there are some people who are just very average. We know that not everyone Apparates as well because it’s a hard skill.”

Actually, that is something that I so appreciate getting called out, because we do have this collective bias being so intimately familiar with Snape and Dumbledore and McGonagall and Flitwick’s capabilities, that the average everyday barely-passed-his-OWLs Ron Weasley would, as an adult, if he didn’t have Hermione there, probably use a pamphlet to protect his home and find some use in it.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree. I appreciate the reminder that we should keep in mind that not everybody is going to be a very powerful wizard. We’re typically very focused on talking about their lives, and of course, they’re a big focus of these books, so you can maybe see why we’re so focused on everybody having a large skillset. But yeah, there’s probably the everyday people who just are not that great.

Eric: That was why there was such value in the DA, because it got everybody to perform a Patronus, a full corporeal Patronus. The people at the Ministry would be shocked if they found out that all these 15-year-olds could do that.

Andrew: This next one is a quickie; it’s just from Jeremiah, and he says, “I love Micah’s dad jokes.”

Micah: Aw, thanks, Jeremiah.

Andrew: That’s actually a friend of mine who lives here…

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … and he also really likes your voice, Micah, as well. And I really appreciate that Jeremiah sounded off in the comments, even though he could have just texted me that thought.

Eric: I was going to say, who does…? Well, Micah, you put this doc together; does that mean that you have a dad joke prepared to share on the show?

Micah: Well, I did not prepare this section of the document, but who knows? Maybe a little bit later on there will be a dad joke forthcoming.

Andrew: Oh, don’t get Jeremiah too excited.

Eric: We’ll wait for that.

Micah: [laughs] We also heard from Heidi. This is on the Snape is good/bad debate that preceded the release of Deathly Hallows, and she says,

“I remember doing a debate on Snape! I was totally Snape is a good guy and I was the ONLY one. Those people who disagreed with me were super, shall we say, passionate. I had nothing substantial to back up my stance, and I remember yelling ‘Because I just know! He’s a double agent,’ and they yelled me off the stage.”

Eric: Augh!

Andrew: Whoa.

Micah: Who are these people?

“Mind you, I was 28 and they were a bunch of teenagers. I hope after reading Deathly Hallows, they thought about that debate and the ‘old lady’ that defended Snape’s honor, albeit weakly.”

Andrew: Oh, that’s a fun, if not traumatic, memory. Thank you, Heidi, for sharing.

Eric: And I’d be nervous to go somewhere at a convention, state an unpopular opinion, and then Gen Z boos me off the stage. That would be really… that would really hurt my ego. I’m joking.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, our next comment comes from ValiantKnight over on YouTube, and this is about our recent “Is Snape a good teacher?” discussion, and ValiantKnight says,

“No one is arguing that Snape isn’t an extremely skilled and precocious Potions Master, but he’s a horrible teacher. Even the Half-Blood Prince stuff, he’s not teaching Harry there; he’s just updating recipes to work better and more thoroughly than the originals in the book. That’s more skilled Potions Master stuff, but it isn’t teaching him any theory.”

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I agree with this, and I think that makes sense to me as far as why the writing is in the Potion book in the first place. It’s Snape kind of taking a page out of Hermione’s book and being such an insufferable know-it-all that he’s like, “I can do this better; this is inefficient,” and he crosses everything off and just writes the way that he knows because he’s annoyed with the book for existing. And every page, he turns the page and he’s like, “Ugh, some more wrong stuff I have to fix,” and then fixes it. I don’t think he’s writing that book with the intention of ever helping anyone else that’s reading it, because he doesn’t take to teaching in any different of an energy.

Andrew: No. Of a style, yeah.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a complete contrast to, let’s say, looking at another Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, Lupin. He’s probably the only one we can point to in that subject that actually teaches the students. And I agree with what ValiantKnight is saying. Snape is good, he’s a great wizard, but he can’t teach worth a dime. Now we’re going to pop over to the Discord, and the first comment here, also on Snape, is from Ele.

“Something that has come up for me is that when fans discuss Snape, there’s a surprisingly strong school of thought that Snape is a ‘good’ teacher based on the concept that he writes up his own version of instructions for potions on the blackboard. That’s why he always handwrites them. Now, I’m a Snape defender most of the time, but Half-Blood Prince puts paid to this version of events. If Snape had always shared his own version of events with the class, why does Harry suddenly go from Potions middling student to Potions genius? The only explanation I can think of is that he hasn’t had Snape’s full instructions before. Plus – Hermione. If Snape had told the class before to crush the sopophorous bean to better release the juice, then I think we could count on Hermione to have remembered that. Unless it’s the first time they’ve ever used them, which I guess is possible.”

Eric: This is really incredible, this thought that not once did Snape really provide any of his classes that the Gryffindors were in with these types of tips. “Oh, you’ll find that crushing a bean works better than slicing it nine times out of ten.” None of that, otherwise Hermione would already have internalized it. And the instructions that he’s giving to the class are basically the book instructions, even though he knows there’s better ways to achieve… I mean, this is like a trade secret, almost. It’s like the Snape brand potion is always going to be better because he has these hacks, but when it comes time to teach the kids, he’s just going to give them the basic, because nobody… no student is going to show him up. You know what I’m saying? So he’s kind of keeping the best stuff that’s in the Potions book for himself.

Laura: Rachel says,

“Something that really jumped out to me during the first potions lesson is that I finally see why Hermione is Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw. She’s very bright and driven by success, but she isn’t intuitive. She goes by the book. If we’re understanding Ravenclaws to be curious, inquisitive, and creative, we’d likely see a bit more of that from Hermione. Or am I way off?”

Actually, I think this is a good call-out.

Andrew: I think you’re spot on, yeah.

Eric: So you have to be inquisitive to be a Ravenclaw?

Laura: I mean, that is definitely one of the defining features, I would say.

Andrew: All right, next is from Kathleen. She writes about Half-Blood Prince.

Half-Blood Prince is my favorite Potter book, and I’m loving your Chapter by Chapters so much. Here’s one question that I have: Why doesn’t Dumbledore explain to Harry how to destroy Horcruxes? (This would have saved so much time and stress in Deathly Hallows.) The withered hand comes up so many times. Why couldn’t Dumbledore say to Harry, ‘I tried X with the ring Horcrux and it caused this irreversible curse that is steadily killing me, so don’t do X. Instead, the safest course of action for destroying a Horcrux is to do A, B, or C…'”

So I feel like – and I think we were kind of touching on this a week or two ago – I think Dumbledore wants Harry to think on his own, to think critically, to try and answer these questions himself, rather than spelling everything out for him. Otherwise, how is he going to become a better wizard? How is he going to, I don’t know, save the wizarding world the next time, and Dumbledore is totally not in the picture? He wants to train Harry up, and he probably also really believes in Harry brainstorming with Ron and Hermione and anybody else that Harry wishes to ask.

Eric: So this next comment comes from Tangled Yarn, a.k.a. Carolyn. She says,

“Why does the background subplot of Tonks/Lupin feel so underbaked to the point of being distracting in Half-Blood Prince? Rereading HP 6 is really reminding me how much of a point is made to mention Tonks (and to mention her being at Black Manor all the time in Book 5), but for some reason it doesn’t feel like the payoff is worth the mentions. It’s one of the few threads in the Harry Potter books that feels lazily contrived to me (presumably for the end goal of Lupin having a kid and then being killed), despite the effort that went into hinting at the relationship across a few books. Was it supposed to remind us that there are things going on in the adults’ lives that Harry has no knowledge of? Was it to point out how much work the Order was doing that Harry didn’t have the smallest clue about? Was it because adult women in Harry Potter can’t be single unless they’re awful? Also, what is Hermione getting up to while Harry is busy stalking Malfoy and Ron is attached to Lavender? What’s her sixth year like? How often is she hanging out with Ginny?”

Lot of questions there; I think we’re going to probably have to touch on some as we continue to read. But what do you guys think about the Tonks and Lupin thing already?

Andrew: I’ve been thinking about this, too, as rereading. I’m surprised we’re not hearing about it more, and it’s been a big-ish mystery so far.

Laura: I mean, just in general, I feel like Tonks’s character was underserved. She just deserved better character development than what she got.

Andrew: Tangled Yarn also asked, “Was it supposed to remind us that there are things going on in the adults’ lives that Harry has no knowledge of?” I think that could be a good lesson for readers and a good point to make, that there is so much going on in the lives of adults that you never realize. They hide it from you, and you only later on in your life might realize, “Oh, adults have issues and drama and feelings too.” When you’re younger, you don’t really see your parents and your elders with feelings and like they’re going through stuff, but this is a reminder that they are.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, imagine finding out in Deathly Hallows sometime that Madam Rosmerta and Tom the barman of the Leaky Cauldron were in a relationship once. As a random aside, one of them died and the other one’s really sad about it, and you’re like, “Wait, what?” That would be an example of, “Oh, these adults have lives outside of it.” But no, I think it’s set up because we care about both Tonks and Lupin to be something other than what it ultimately ends up being. So I don’t know; we’ll have to talk about that more in Deathly Hallows, I think.

Micah: Yeah, I think – and this is brought up by Tangled Yarn – it was meant to serve as kind of a full circle moment for the series in that you have both Tonks and Lupin having a child who is orphaned by war, which is very similar, obviously, to what happens to Harry, and Harry ends up becoming Teddy’s godfather, right? And responsible for caretaking for him. So the other piece of this too… I know we’re talking a lot about Tonks, but I feel like Lupin starts to get a really nasty character arc as a result of the writing. He came into Prisoner of Azkaban as really this beloved Defense Against the Dark Arts professor and member of the Marauders, and the direction that he now starts to go in… I know people don’t really look on him very favorably by the time the series wraps, and again, that could just be character development, and as Harry gets older, he’s looking at Lupin as more of an adult and this is who Lupin actually is. But I don’t know; his character kind of soured a bit for me as we move through Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: As Carlee is saying in our Discord, this all can be Max’d! The TV series is a good opportunity to see others’ point of view.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Andrew: Yes, Carlee, absolutely.

Micah: So transitioning into some other Wizarding World news we’ve talked about, Liofa73 had not-so-positive feelings about the full cast audiobooks. They said,

“I think the first book is just okay. I’m still not convinced. I suspect they might get better. But the sound effects are too loud, the narrator is boring — because that was a design choice — and the conversations using Spatial Audio can be difficult to hear. I think I would rather have heard Stephen Fry’s narration and have the actors cut in for the voices. I think it was a bad idea to not allow the narrator to be emotive.”

And Amy added,

“I loved listening to the full cast, but you do need to wear headphones. I wish Audible had this written down so people knew. I listened to the first five chapters without headphones and the sound was terrible. The volume of the voices was all over the place and I didn’t even realize there was any music. That’s how quiet it was. I loved Hagrid; his voice actor is doing a great job…”

Hagrid is voiced by Mark Addy.

“… as is McGonagall and Hermione. I agree about Hugh Laurie. Every time he speaks, my brain is like, ‘Oh, it’s Hugh Laurie,’ instead of Dumbledore. Hopefully it will improve.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: So on the narrator, that’s not the first…

Micah: Scathing review.

Andrew: Yeah, well, but it’s good, because we’ve just been like, “Oh my God, this is amazing! Except for Hugh Laurie.” On the narrator point about them not emoting and maybe just not being that great, I disagree, but this isn’t the first time I’ve heard that somebody’s a little underwhelmed by the narrator.

Eric: Yeah, I also disagree. I think the narrator… especially because Book 1 is the moment… that’s the book where the narration is more characterized. It’s funny. The narration itself is funny in Book 1, and I think so far what I’ve heard from Book 1 has been enjoyable, the narrator specifically. Because it works for me. But if it doesn’t work for everybody, that’s totally fine.

Andrew: All right, well, another recent item we’ve been discussing is Netflix buying – possibly – HBO and Warner Bros., which also means they would be buying Harry Potter, which is a crazy idea to think about. So we got a lot of feedback about that discussion that Micah and I recorded. Tyler said, “I like Andrew’s optimism. It’s at the very, very least, a huge regime change, which will be bad overall, but could produce a good project or two here and there, lmao.” Brit said, “Let’s get some limited series spinoffs!” CGutting said, Fantastic Beasts was incredible. Idgaf what anyone says.”

Micah: “I don’t give a flip.”

Andrew: They’re responding to my idea that maybe they can actually reboot or finish the Fantastic Beasts film series.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: And then finally, Craig said they would like to see Netflix do a Modern Family style sitcom called “The Weasleys,” with Molly as the main character, showing her life as a mom in the chaotic Weasley home. Wednesdays at 9:00 p.m. on Netflix.

Eric: With special guest, the ghoul in the attic.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Weasley Wednesdays.


Lynx Line


Andrew: Now it’s time for our Lynx Line segment, and we thought with the holidays approaching, maybe some of our listeners are looking for a last minute gift idea for a loved one, or maybe you’ve got extra time to read over the holidays. So we asked our Slug Club patrons at Patreon.com/MuggleCast: What have you read this year that you think Harry Potter readers would enjoy? Julie Ann said,

“Not new, but have to recommend classic fantasy by Tolkien like The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and The Simarillion. Listen to the Audible version by Andy Serkis (who starred in the films as Gollum); he does an incredible job navigating so many voices and narrating.”

[imitating Gollum] “Gollum! Gollum!” That’s bad.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “My precious.” There, I can do that. [laughs]

Eric: There, you’ve redeemed yourself.

Micah: Have you ever seen him impersonate Trump? It’s amazing.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It really is.

Eric: Shannon wrote in,

The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells are the first books I’ve obsessively reread since the Harry Potter series. Most of them are novellas, so they’re fast reads. The new Murderbot TV show on Apple TV is really fun too, but the books are better (of course).”

Micah: Audrey says,

The Plated Prisoner series by Raven Kennedy! I’ve only read the first two books, but I’m hooked. First book is a lot of world-building, but it pays off. It’s a fun twist on King Midas.”

Eric: Ooh.

Laura: Rachel says,

Percy Jackson and the Olympians. Honestly, readers of any age can enjoy these books. They’re fun, mystical, and have similar elements of a group of friends banding together.”

Eric: Aw. You guys just covered Season 2 of the show, right, over on What the Hype?!

Laura: Yep.

Micah: We did a preview episode.

Eric: Preview episode. With Mike Schubert, who has a podcast, “The Newest Olympian,” that I wanted to plug, because it’s always nice. There’s a read-along podcast, if our listeners are interested and do get into Percy Jackson.

Andrew: Manda said,

The Society of Unknowable Objects by Gareth Brown – it has some modern day magic, mystery, adventure, secrecy with surprising twists and turns. It is in the same world as his book The Book of Doors – both are 10/10 stars, in my opinion.”

Eric: Ooh. Wild Dragon Lady – fun name – says,

“Not a new one, but I would recommend the Discworld book series by Terry Pratchett. It has quite a different world-building than what you would normally find in fantasy books, often more being a parody on a lot of things, not only fantasy but also on everyday stuff, but everything still does make sense in its own way. It’s more of a light and fun read, but sometimes still does make you wonder, what if the world would be a little different?”

Micah: MN Sonia… that could tie into our bonus MuggleCast:

“Still singing the praises for the Royal Institute of Magic series by Victor Kloss. Three students at a magical school have to find the pieces of an enchanted suit of armor to defeat the evil wizard. One of the few book series I purchased after reading them. As exciting and interesting as the Potter books.”

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: James says,

“I haven’t read any ‘newer’ books these last few years, but as someone whose entire adolescence revolved around Harry Potter, the only other series that has captivated me in the same way is A Song of Ice and Fire. So I’ll recommend A Game of Thrones – while this series has much less ‘magic’ (at first), and despite the series not having been finished, I have yet to find such a well-written and gripping fantasy story on par with A Song of Ice and Fire. A Game of Thrones has mystery, fantasy, political intrigue, and some of the best plot/character development I have ever read.”

Eric: It’s real good.

Andrew: Jenna said,

Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Nothing like Harry Potter, but it’s my favorite book. It’s the only book other than Harry Potter that had me looking up analysis and theories and fanfiction online.”

So Jenna, in some ways, that means it is like Harry Potter, because it really inspires you to read and think about the series just as much.

Eric: Yeah, I’m going to second this one. This one is great. I listened to the audiobook of this, which is particularly incredible, and it’s going to be a movie coming out I think next year. So Project Hail Mary. Yeah, it’s incredible. I absolutely was very moved by it. And Rachel GG says,

Zodiac Academy by Caroline Peckham and Susanne Valenti. Dark paranormal romance series! Set at a magic school but aged up to a modern college setting (a.k.a. SMUT and social media!) The magic system and classes are fun as they are impacted by zodiac sign, elemental powers, and ‘order’ (25+ kinds of creatures). Would advise to research content/trigger warnings; is not for everyone.”

That’s a good call-out. Very thoughtful, too.

Micah: Michael W. says,

“I might have recommended it before, but The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson. First of an epic fantasy series that is long, engaging, and very fun!”

Andrew: I know some people who are really into Brandon Sanderson.

Laura: Same.

Andrew: Seems like a cool guy, too.

Laura: Jenn says,

“For adults – Dungeon Crawler Carl! I’ve only read the first (of seven) books so far, but it was great! It’s about a guy and his cat, Princess Donut, who are forced to compete in a DnD style apocalypse dungeon crawl.”

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I love that.

Andrew: I’ve seen a lot of attention around this book series; the covers really pop at the bookstore. I’ve been tempted, because if I see enough hype for a certain book, I can’t help but resist. This one might have to be added to my list, because now I know one of our MuggleCast listeners is into it too. And finally, Kayla B. said,

The Witcher series, because I connect a lot of similar themes between the two.”

Cool! Well, everybody’s got their work cut out for them now. Enjoy those books, y’all. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can send us an owl several different ways. You can email or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com, you can use the contact form on MuggleCast.com, or hit the comments on Spotify, YouTube, or social media. And we will be off for the next two weeks, so we’ll see you in 2026, but don’t miss an end of year unhinged bonus MuggleCast in which we’re going off on drama that occurred during our time at MuggleNet. And I think you can expect more of this in the new year, because we know you all are very curious about what was going on at MuggleNet when we were all involved with the site, so it’s going to be a tell-all. Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk. There will not be a Quizzitch this week, but it will be back next time. That does it. [imitating Dumbledore] “Another year, gone.”

Micah: Oh, wait, I feel like I need to throw in one dad joke before we close out the year.

Andrew: Oh, right, yeah.

Micah: So here we go. Question is: Why don’t skeletons fight each other?

Andrew: Why?

Micah: They don’t have the guts.

[Andrew and Eric laugh weakly]

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, you have more of those to look forward to in 2026. What a teaser.

Eric: That was such a great way to wrap up year XX.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, so much for sticking with us over the past 20 years. We are very much looking forward to the new content we have planned for you in 2026, and of course, continuing to go Chapter by Chapter through the series and cover any other big news that heads our way. Have a safe and happy holiday season and a happy new year. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #732

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #732, It’s Morfin Time! (HBP Chapter 10, ‘The House of Gaunt’)


Cold Open


Laura: Morfin is just hissing at him, literally, “You’re not welcome here. Get out.”

Eric: Still, if a guy is hissing at me, I’m probably going to back up a little bit.

Micah: You’ve been on the New York City subways too, Eric?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I think if a rando brandishing a bloody knife and a dead snake is hissing at me, I’ve received the message.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. And this week, prepare your best organic door decorations – no snakes, please – because we’re getting ready to visit the Gaunt family in Chapter 10 of Half-Blood Prince, “The House of Gaunt.” And before we get to that, just wanted to let everybody know Audible’s Chamber of Secrets full cast audiobook is out Tuesday, December 16, the day that this episode will be released. Wanted to bring this up because we were very pleasantly surprised by Sorcerer’s Stone, and very much looking forward to Chamber of Secrets and the rest of the series. As a reminder, each book is going to be released on a monthly cadence, so Prisoner of Azkaban will be out in January, Goblet of Fire in February, so on and so forth. With each new book, of course, comes some new characters, so Kit Harington, who you’ll know from Game of Thrones, joins the cast as Gilderoy Lockhart, and Daniel Mays debuts as Dobby. So looking forward to those, and we plan to do a review of the first three audiobooks, and then again once the rest of the series is out in the months ahead.

Micah: Who is Daniel Mays?

Andrew: I don’t know.

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: “Hi, Billy Mays here! And that’s my son.” [laughs] No, uh… yeah, I don’t know.

Laura: I don’t think there’s any family relation there.

Andrew: [laughs] It doesn’t look like it.

Laura: I feel like we’d know that.

Andrew: It is the holiday shopping season, and we have special deals running on our Patreon and over at MuggleCastMerch.com. The Patreon keeps the show running, unlike Marvolo’s iron fist over his decrepit household, and we have our best offer of the year. Get 20% off an annual membership; just visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and sign up for an annual subscription at the Dumbledore’s Army or Slug Club level, and this will guarantee you next year’s gift, plus a year of ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, access to our member-only Potter communities, including those monthly Slug Club hangouts, and a lot more. Just use code “HOLIDAY” at checkout. And don’t forget, you can gift memberships as well, or you can receive a gifted membership, so keep that in mind. And second, get 20% off all merchandise at MuggleCastMerch.com. You can get cozy this winter with a MuggleCast hoodie, or beanie, or socks, or Laura’s pants, or a long sleeve tee… and if you live down under, stay cool this summer with a short sleeve tee or crop top. Lots of options. Or some glassware.

Eric: Oooh, love that. We’re now appealing to all seasons of the world. Love that.

Andrew: Yes, I just sent out a Cozy Comfy Combo Pack to somebody in Michigan. The Cozy Comfy Combo Pack includes the beanie and socks. I was like, “Oh, they’re smart. They’re getting ready for winter.”

Eric: Very smart.

Andrew: With the help of MuggleCast. So the deals that we have on MuggleCastMerch.com and Patreon.com/MuggleCast end Friday, December 19, so act now.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, time for Chapter by Chapter, Half-Blood Prince Chapter 10, “The House of Gaunt.”

Eric: We’ll begin with our Pensieve segment, as always. We last discussed Chapter 10 of Half-Blood Prince on MuggleCast 390, which was titled “Falling Softly,” and that debuted on October 22, 2018.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 390.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Sam: In this chapter we meet Bob Ogden, and then in Chamber of Secrets, a third of the way in is the first time we hear mention of Ogden’s Old Firewhisky.

Andrew: Oh!

Eric: Is it like his brother invented the whiskey or something?

Sam: Maybe.

Eric: Because Bob Ogden is Head of Magical Law Enforcement. If his brother had a…

Micah: Maybe he went into the Firewhisky business after this incident.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Sam: “You need a drink, Bob. I’m going to make you some.”

Eric: “I need a drink,” yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: The drink was a favorite of Lockhart, and he told his second year Defense Against the Dark Arts class that he wouldn’t say no to a bottle for his birthday.

Eric: So he’s actually imploring 12-year-olds to buy him alcohol?

[Andrew and Sam laugh]

Sam: I love Lockhart so much.

Eric: [laughs] Everything is wrong about Lockhart.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: That was MuggleCast listener and Slug Club supporter Sam on the podcast, by the way.

Laura: Great throwback.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, picking up with this chapter and kind of looking back at last week, I wanted to first ask if we could revisit the debate that we had last week about whether or not Harry was being an ethical student in using the Half-Blood Prince’s instructions to pass off a level of prowess at Potions that he doesn’t really have, and it’s because the very beginning of this chapter calls out that Harry does continue to follow the Half-Blood Prince’s instructions, “with the result that by their fourth lesson Slughorn was raving about Harry’s abilities, saying that he had rarely taught anyone so talented.” So does anyone want to revise their feelings about last week?

Micah: Nope.

Eric: I was going to say, speak now!

Andrew: So I stand by what I said last week, that he should definitely use these notes, use it or lose it. But I think because people are catching on to how talented he is with the book, maybe just admit it. Is it so wrong to admit you’re using these notes?

Eric: If he does, I think maybe the rest of the students won’t take too kindly to it. He would lose the book because it’s not equitable.

Laura: Right, it’s not fair.

Eric: Yeah. The thing about Harry… he does at least offer to allow Hermione and Ron to use the book. This is something that I had forgotten, and it does kind of change a little bit what I was saying last week. Now, I think it’s still unethical to pass that off as his own prowess, and Harry is ultimately not going to learn anything in Potions for another year, so it ain’t great, but he’s not obsessively hoarding it for himself exactly.

Andrew: He’s offering to share the wealth.

Laura: Yeah, sharing is caring. It is deceptive, though.

Eric: Of course, if there were two exact perfect potions, and the two that made them were Harry and Ron, I’m sorry, the other classmates are going to call BS.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, and Slughorn is just going to look at Ron and be like, “Who are you again?”

Andrew: Hey, but remember, Ron is a very smart character…

Laura: He is!

Andrew: … as the books remind us, unlike the movies.

Eric: Remember, he’s also Slughorn’s favorite, a pure-blood wizard.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, he’s so smart, he can’t even read the writing in the book.

Eric: Oh.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: It’s chicken scratch.

Laura: I’m so glad you brought that up, Micah, because that is another point we get into early in this chapter, which is the beginning of the bread-crumbing of the plot line of what’s the identity of the Half-Blood Prince? Who is it? And the trio definitely have their suspicions. Ron, of course, as you noted, can barely read the handwriting, which is interesting because Hermione thinks that it looks like a girl’s handwriting, but then Harry is like, “That’s stupid. How many girls are princes, Hermione?”

Andrew: “Duh.”

Laura: So it’s interesting how this plays out, because everybody kind of, I think, makes the most obvious assumptions, when a clear, obvious assumption that should be right in front of them is that this is one of their professor’s handwriting, who they’ve been in class with for the last five years. Presumably Snape has written on the chalkboard, presumably he’s written notes on their assignments, and they could very easily say, “Wow, this looks familiar,” but they don’t.

Andrew: “Could it look like our former Potions teacher book?” That’s another key clue for them to think about. [laughs] “I’ve seen this handwriting in another Potions class. Hmm.”

Eric: I usually tend to think of girls’ handwriting as being nicer and neater than boys’. Do you guys have that same opinion?

Andrew: I do.

Laura: Hmm…

Eric: Just in the most sense?

Laura: Have y’all seen my handwriting?

Eric: No.

Laura: My handwriting is not great.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Okay, okay, that’s interesting.

Laura: It’s not terrible, but I will say I think Micah has much neater handwriting than I do.

Eric: Huh. Well, the reason I bring that up is I think that what we are to make of these assumptions – I really love the way you said that, Laura, where everyone kind of goes to the easiest assumption – but I think the reason that Hermione thinks it’s a girl’s handwriting actually just underscores the connection where the Prince is a Prince through his mom. So Eileen Prince is Snape’s mom; that’s the Prince in the Half-Blood Prince, is a woman, so I think maybe that’s the only connection I can make sense of, as far as why she would think that way, or why that’s written that way.

Andrew: In a way, it is a bit of foreshadowing.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Micah: It’s also a bit ironic that Ron is commenting on… or Ron can’t read the handwriting, but he so easily reads Hermione’s handwriting when he’s copying her notes all the time…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … or copying her assignment or paper or what have you, so… I don’t know.

Eric: Yeah, it’s interesting because I think, too, if Harry were really dedicated… it’s not really shade on Harry, but if he’s dedicated to giving the access to the book to the best potions to Ron and Hermione, they would take the time in one of their hundreds of free periods this year, and Harry could transcribe and rewrite on Ron’s book all of the same in neater handwriting, or dictate to Ron and he could write in his book, and then they both could have margin copied books.

Laura: I don’t think Ron cares enough to take the time for that.

Eric: About class?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, think about how much time that is. And then Hermione is just standing on principle; she’s like, “Even though these instructions are objectively worse than what you’re using, Harry, I flatly refuse to cheat.” Something else that I thought was interesting, something that stuck out to me about Snape’s handwriting and the identity of the Prince and Snape’s connection to his mother, it makes me wonder if perhaps his handwriting took after his mother’s handwriting because she was the parent that he had admiration and respect for, over his father.

Andrew: You could think about, too, if they were closer, his mom maybe wrote letters to him…

Laura: Right.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: … so seeing her writing style rubbed off on him, especially if he would reread the letters.

Eric: Yeah, I tend to think of… I think the word that’s most used to describe Snape’s handwriting is “cramped,” and that really just speaks to me to mean kind of claustrophobic, or that you’re confined in a life that you don’t particularly enjoy. Just looking back to the glimpse we got last book of Snape’s home life, it doesn’t seem like a pleasant place to be or grow up, so the cramped writing style, for me, is a natural extension of the really sort of chokingly small leeway that Snape had at home.

Laura: I like that.

Micah: Yeah, he’s definitely crampy. Crabby. Crampy?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Crabby, crampy, crappy…

Eric: Crabby, crampy.

Micah: And I like that point, Eric, too, because as we start to go through this chapter, I think there’s a lot of similarities between how a father treats, in this case, his daughter, and how Snape’s father treats his wife. Although we’re not given that context yet about Snape’s family, but the fact that Snape is, via the Half-Blood Prince in this chapter, and we’re talking about Eileen Prince, I think there’s definitely parallels that can be drawn.

Eric: Yeah, and why not throw in, too, the grandfatherly situation between Dumbledore and Harry in this chapter? Because there’s some obfuscation of truth going on.

Micah: Never.

Laura: Yeah, common theme with these two characters. But speaking of Dumbledore, pretty quickly after this interaction with the trio in the common room, Harry has to depart because he has his first lesson with Dumbledore, the lesson that he has no idea what’s going to happen or what to expect. And as Harry is on his way to Dumbledore’s office, he does stumble across Trelawney, and she is reading playing cards and really reading into what she’s drawing, so I thought we could take a moment to just kind of analyze what she draws. So she draws the two of spades, the seven of spades, the ten of spades, and the knave of spades, citing things like conflict, an ill omen, violence, and “a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes the questioner.” And she very quickly says, “Oh, no, this can’t be right.” But Eric, you actually went in deep here and pulled some readings of what these cards could be in tarot, right?

Eric: Yeah, so many people… or it’s possible that people don’t know this, but the minor arcana in tarot… and playing cards can be used like tarot cards; they’re designed that way. So the numbers and the four suits… for instance, the spades equivalent in tarot is swords. So it’s interesting, because looking up just very helpful, handy websites – in particular, Labyrinthos is the one that I used for this – the findings, or the descriptions on here largely match what Trelawney is reading, and I kind of had a revelation in that when Trelawney is just walking down a corridor at Hogwarts and she’s shuffling these cards and pulling them to gain some level of meaning, I found that a lot of the cards could relate very strongly to Draco and the plot with Draco. All of the cards except the last one, in fact, seem to be very heavy handed on what Draco is doing. And I think this makes sense, because what’s going on at Hogwarts this year, right? It’s Draco’s year. It’s his quest; he’s got to kill the headmaster. And Trelawney, it’s such an interesting thing that she could be cluing into it, if only she could believe her findings.

Andrew: He’s trying to set up an infiltration of Hogwarts, too. Hogwarts, the school led by Dumbledore, to your point. So it is fascinating that Trelawney is pulling these cards while walking by Harry, who is very much tied to Draco’s story.

Eric: Yeah. No, exactly. That’s well said. But yeah, so the two of spades – just going here off of Labyrinthos – “The two of swords symbolizes the confusion we face when we’re forced to make difficult choices. The woman in the card being blindfolded,” which is how it is in the tarot, “is a representation of a situation which prevents her from seeing both the problem and the solution with clarity. The swords that she is holding in each of her hands show that there are two choices that lead in different directions and are mutually exclusive to the other. It may also depict a stalemate, which means the problem should be addressed with a logical and rational thinking.” So there’s this idea also with the two of spades of an illusion of choice, and it’s like the choices that Draco has to make in this year are already made for him in certain ways. His choice is really just whether he can possibly survive and succeed, but the choice to kill Dumbledore is going to outlive Draco, should he fail.

Laura: I love that.

Micah: Could you tie this card at all, though, back to Narcissa and the choice she had to make earlier on in Half-Blood Prince?

Eric: Very much so. Moving to some of the other cards, the seven of spades, from Labyrinthos, says it’s about betrayal and deception. “When you get this card, it may imply that you or someone else in your life is having difficulty getting away with something. There are instances when we are forced to be sneaky, hoping that we will not be discovered. When we are found out, we have to face the consequences.” Is anybody else getting Draco at the Slug Club holiday party?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Or even Harry in this moment that Trelawney is pulling these cards is being sneaky.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So it’s pretty interesting. And Draco’s got a big, big secret that, if it comes out, would be absolutely horrible for him. Even though I guess the relevant parties, his Head of House and the Headmaster, already know it, it’s a big secret. And the ten of spades is violence, according to Trelawney. It indicates a major disaster of some sort; “a certain force of extreme magnitude has come to hit you in your life – one that you may have not foreseen. There is a sense of betrayal that is indicated here, for the character is stabbed in the back.” It’s a reminder that how much we try, we cannot control everything. This kind of foreshadows maybe Harry’s loss, as well as the betrayal of Dumbledore by a student that was supposed to be… that’s not what a student is supposed to do to the Headmaster.

Micah: Or by Snape. I mean, we’re led to believe that Snape is acting of his own accord.

Eric: Yeah. So the one that doesn’t make any sense to Trelawney, and she says, “This can’t be right,” is the knave of spades, which is the page of swords, and this is what I got from that. It says, “When it comes to your career, you may be someone who is intelligent, innovative, and ambitious. You may have lots of energy and many ideas to put into your career. Since this card is a page, this does point to some sort of apprenticeship, or new experience, meaning that you may either be in a period of training, or the start of a new job or career path.” The thing about this is she is closest to Harry here, and all of a sudden, it’s like somebody’s an apprentice and is being trained, which is what Harry is going off to do with Dumbledore.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, it’s very interesting that all these can tie to Harry and Draco. And I also wonder if it dawns on Trelawney that the cards she’s pulling could relate to somebody who is near. She does also say, “Well, that can’t be right” when she’s pulling the last one, I think it is. So she must be thinking about these cards in relation to someone, right? What’s going through her mind?

Eric: Yeah, she’s following a narrative. It’s just so funny, because the potency of these cards – as we’re pointing out, they could relate to some of the major plots of this year – she’s clueless, because she doesn’t know. But she’s got some level of the gift. Her best predictions, her most accurate predictions, she’s doomed to never know how accurate they are.

Andrew: And that’s another thing: This is another example of how Divination is actually sometimes accurate.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: But it’s only accurate when she’s stumbling around the castle…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … drunk on cooking sherry, pulling cards out of her pocket.

Laura: Listen, that’s how she taps into her inner eye. She’s got to be a little loopy.

Andrew: Well, it makes me think of… a little loopy and a little relaxed. She’s not in front of people; she doesn’t have to perform. She’s just…

Micah: She’s taking the edge off.

Andrew: It reminds me… and I know this is going to sound like a stupid example, but when I’m playing Guitar Hero, if I think too much about hitting the notes in Guitar Hero, I stress myself out, and then I perform badly, whereas if I don’t overthink it, that’s when I’m my best during “Don’t Stop Believing” by Journey, you know?

Eric: No, it’s a great reference. You kind of have to allow muscle memory to take over.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly, right.

Laura: Well, and I think if we’re looking at this as being a commentary on Divination, too, we could also… if we wanted to be critical about Divination, we could also look at this as like, “Here’s another example of how Trelawney really relies on the vagueness of her art form.” Because kind of like we’ve talked about before, if you go and read – and no offense to anyone – but if you go and read your astrological chart for the month, these things tend to be written in such a way that are vague enough that anyone can look into it and find similarities and connections to their own life. Rachel in the Discord is pointing out about the knave of spades connection that Draco is also in training to be a Death Eater in some capacity. I think we could also extend this to connect it to Tom Riddle, even. I think these are vague enough descriptions that we could probably connect them to multiple different characters, which I think is by design to show, “Oh, here’s another example of how Trelawney is kind of closer to the mark than she realizes, but she is not actually expert enough at this to get it right.”

Eric: It’s interesting, though, because Dumbledore has never fostered her gift. If he had just told her what she had done, the reason that she’s at Hogwarts still, if he told her that she was correct, I think a lot of her self-esteem would improve. I think she wouldn’t have to stumble around on cooking sherry, drunk as a skunk all this time. She would have a little bit of confidence. And you know what that would do for somebody like her? I think she would rededicate herself, and I think she would actually become somebody who is a little bit more confident. She would be able to actively make some decisions and discern what’s going on at Hogwarts. Now, again, nobody cares that Draco is trying to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore knows; Snape is keeping an eye on him. But if she were to hone her gifts a little bit… it’s just a way in which Dumbledore, I think, has failed his staff, because it’s sad that Trelawney… I feel sad when I see this, that Trelawney is so close to something, but…

Micah: It would put McGonagall in her place, too, because she’s been highly critical of Trelawney. And one other apprenticeship that came to mind, too: I know we mentioned Dumbledore and Harry earlier. What about the Half-Blood Prince and Harry?

Laura: Yep.

Eric: [laughs] If only Harry would learn anything, take anything away.

Laura: And see, it’s funny because you could also describe Harry as “possibly troubled”…

Micah: “Possibly.” [laughs]

Laura: … and if you were to think about the Half-Blood Prince being the questioner in this case. Yeah, Harry does dislike Snape. Draco dislikes Dumbledore, if you think about Dumbledore as the questioner. So it really can be applied multiple ways. Well, we are going to go read some tarot of our own, but we’ll be right back after this.

[Ad break]

Laura: So we’re back, and we’re moving ahead to Harry’s first lesson with Dumbledore. And the stage is really set to provide some answers, but with a heaping side of uncertainty, because Dumbledore gives Harry kind of high level confirmation about what they’re working towards without really telling him. So they have this exchange where Dumbledore basically sets him up for what’s going to happen in the next book, when Harry is like, “Does what you’re going to tell me have anything to do with the prophecy? Will it help me survive?” And Dumbledore is like, “It has a very great deal to do with the prophecy, and I certainly hope that it will help you survive.”

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

Laura: It’s like, “Come on, man. Stop burying the lead.”

Eric: “If you’re lucky!”

Andrew: Dumbledore is very colorful in this moment, and it’s very interesting to me how Dumbledore admits to Harry that there will be the “wildest guesswork” happening. And since he is “rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.” So he’s like, “I’m going to be guessing a lot, and I could be majorly wrong. But anyway, let’s dive into the memory, and then I’ll share all my crackpot theories.”

Eric: It’s so funny because he’s lying, though, still. I don’t think it’s fair to characterize what Dumbledore is doing right now as guesswork at all, because he has just recently destroyed a second Hor… another Horcrux. So he only ever, at the end of year two, saw the diary, assumed “That’s probably a Horcrux,” but it was gone by the time he got to it. This time, he had a fully functioning Resurrection Stone encased in the Peverell ring that was also holding a Horcrux, managed to destroy it, and how do you know to destroy something? Horcrux destruction is very specific, as the books we find out in the next book say. So Dumbledore knows that it’s Horcruxes; this is not guesswork. And the reason he even says, “Oh, it’s guesswork,” is because Harry actually confronts Dumbledore and says, “Wait a minute, sir. The end of last year, you said you were going to tell me everything!” And he’s like, “So I did.”

Andrew: Maybe is this to ease Harry into it, then? Because dropping some of this with certainty might carry more weight than being like, “Well, it’s just a guess. It’s not the biggest deal. Maybe I’m wrong.”

Eric: Yeah, I can see that being true.

Andrew: And it brings Dumbledore down to Harry’s level, too. It might be more overwhelming if Dumbledore is like, “X, Y, and Z. What do you think, child?” It kind of puts him on his level.

Eric: I agree with that 100%. I think that Dumbledore is making pains to make Harry appear that he’s a peer of Dumbledore’s; he’s treating him like an equal.

Micah: I think us as readers, though, need to go on this journey, because this is part one of several memories that we’re going to visit, and it’s really to kind of peel back the curtain on how Voldemort came to power and how he’s preserving himself and has been for all of these years. If we just kind of got the “He’s making Horcruxes” answer from Dumbledore right in this moment, that’s not as satisfying.

Eric: But think about by the end… if this lesson started with that, which Dumbledore knows, okay? He just knows. Then think where we could have gotten to by the end of this year. Harry would be much further along, there wouldn’t be all this confusion about what he’s really supposed to be doing next year, and Harry probably would have gotten the story of what happened to Dumbledore’s hand, which he never does in the end, even though it’s clued at in this chapter.

Micah: Well, he gets it in Deathly Hallows.

Eric: Through Snape’s memory that he last minute was given before Snape died. It’s so off chance.

Laura: Well, and I think, too… I originally had this slotted for Odds & Ends for the chapter, but I think it’s relevant to the conversation we’re having right now. There is a point in the chapter – Eric, you called out – where Harry is like, “Hey, you said at the end of last term you were going to tell me everything,” and Dumbledore says, “And so I did. I told you everything I know.” So I think we need to add to the Dumbledore Lie Count.

[Dumbledore Lie Count sound effect plays]

Laura: Dumbledore is clearly trying to set this up to kind of Socratic Method Harry, as we were talking about. He’s trying to teach him, he’s trying to allow Harry to make his own connections, and I wonder if that’s because… or if that’s part of Dumbledore setting Harry up to be ready for this, because we do see in “The Prince’s Tale,” in the next book, Dumbledore talking about Harry being ready at the opportune moment, and perhaps part of the way that he’s teaching Harry is allowing Harry to make some of these discoveries on his own. We definitely see in Bob Ogden’s memory, after they come out of it, Harry starts picking up on things like, “Wait, Marvolo. I know that name.” And so Dumbledore is like, “Ah, yes, very clever. You remember what that is, huh?” And so that’s also a great connection back to Chamber of Secrets. But getting back to the memory, Dumbledore is taking Harry on a journey into Bob Ogden’s memory, and just as a recap here, Ogden was the Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, and according to Dumbledore, had died some time ago. But Dumbledore said, “not before I tracked him down and persuaded him to confide his recollections of this memory,” so that some-time-ago timeframe, based on Ogden’s death, means Dumbledore could have obtained this information years ago.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: Not just in the last year, like we’ve seen him doing with some of his other Horcrux discovery.

Micah: Yeah, he’s been tracking Voldemort for some time. It’s clear that he’s been trying to gain as much information as he possibly can on him, and this could be prior to even thinking that Horcruxes were a possibility.

Andrew: And speaking of the Dumbledore Lie Count, this revelation flies in the face of Dumbledore’s claim that he had previously told Harry everything he knows. If that were true, then he would have shared a lot more of this information earlier on, because he’s been tracking Voldemort for a while. He’s been researching this for a while.

Eric: Yeah, there’s tons of stuff that Dumbledore… Dumbledore is full of fun facts that are relevant to Harry that will never quite get conveyed to Harry, and there’s a little bit of fun we can have in trying to enumerate them or figure out what they all are. But really, I think there is a helpful spirit in Dumbledore here; he does want to convey this… this is the way in which Dumbledore feels comfortable telling Harry that he has to be the one to die, or figure out how to destroy a bunch of Horcruxes that are left. Because ultimately, we know that that’s something that Dumbledore feared revealing to Harry; that’s why he waited until last year to even mention the prophecy. So I think that we’re getting probably the best version of Dumbledore that Dumbledore is capable of providing right now.

Micah: I’m wondering, though, for us as readers… and I’m just thinking about this now because Laura, you mentioned how Bob Ogden was not just a member; he was the Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. You’re sending out a pretty big gun here to deal with Morfin Gaunt. Did any of us pick that up? You’re not just sending an Auror or somebody further down the totem pole; we saw earlier in this book the Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, Amelia Bones, murdered.

Andrew: Yes. So this registered with me today, too, reading it for today’s episode. I do think that says something, that they’re sending the Head of the Magical Law Enforcement. I think they anticipated some problems. I think they anticipated that this wasn’t going to go easy for them.

Laura: I see in the Discord, NoMajNoProblem is calling out that Morfin had priors.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: And that’s kind of what I was thinking, too, is they’ve had problems with Morfin and the Gaunt family before, and I think that’s why they’re sending the big guns in. I also think we have to think about the timeline here, and this would have been in, what, the 1920s? Well before Grindelwald, well before any of the major modern wizarding conflicts that we know of. So I would just tend to think that approaches to security and what it means to send department heads out would just be different, kind of thinking about how much the world has changed for all of us since 9/11, for example. I think we can all think of ways that life was very, very different before that happened, so it kind of makes sense to me, when you put it that way.

Andrew: I see Marvolo’s treatment of law enforcement similar to how in the Muggle world, people are kind of isolated from the rest of society, and they don’t like listening to city folk. They run by their own rules. They don’t maybe even follow the news. They don’t associate with other people; they don’t interact with other people.

Eric: They don’t recognize other authority.

Andrew: Exactly, other than their own personal authority. So when somebody from the city comes in and tries to tell them they have to go to court for something, they freak the hell out! They don’t want to be told what to do. They’re cut off from the rest of society in their mind.

Laura: Yeah, well, and we definitely see that in the way that Morfin greets Ogden when he arrives, because Morfin… well, first of all, there’s a dead snake nailed to the door of the Gaunt house, which is quite an omen.

Eric: RIP.

Laura: But then Morfin appears, and he starts yelling at Ogden in Parseltongue. And at first Harry is kind of confused, because he’s like, “I don’t know why you’re so confused about what this guy’s saying to you; it’s pretty clear to me.” But then it turns out that Morfin is just hissing at him, literally, “You’re not welcome here. Get out.”

Eric: Still, if a guy is hissing at me, I’m probably going to back up a little bit, even if I can’t make it out.

Laura: For real.

Micah: You’ve been on the New York City subways too, Eric?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Probably like, 17 times at this point.

Laura: I was going to say, I think if a rando brandishing a bloody knife and a dead snake is hissing at me, I’ve received the message.

Eric: That said, I think that it’s a perfectly good point that Morfin is not… we see later he can speak English, and that’s a question: Can he actually speak it? He can, but by choosing not to, he’s also not respecting Ogden. He’s not communicating with Ogden in a way that his words are going to be received or understood, so even his warning, even his “You’re not welcome here,” is not actually meant to convey the sense of danger; it’s just meant to scare Ogden.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And it’s a strong connection to Chamber of Secrets, and Harry’s learning that he can speak Parseltongue, so this is another little nugget that’s come up that ties us back to Book 2.

Laura: Definitely. And I think it’s also a good time to do a little name origin about the Gaunt family. We were speaking previously about how they are clearly very isolated from broader society, and we see it brought up both in the descriptions provided of these characters, as well as something Dumbledore says later in the chapter, that the Gaunt family kind of kept it in the family, if you will. The gene pool is a little shallow, right, Micah?

Micah: It is, but I think you see that a lot throughout history with what you would call pure-blood families, because you can only marry within your own family, in some cases, if you want to keep the bloodlines pure. But we’ll talk a little bit about that. As far as the name origin goes for Gaunt…

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Micah: … when you’re referring to a person, it is somebody who appears as lean and haggard, especially because of suffering, hunger, or age. And I think that’s definitely applicable here to both Marvolo and Morfin in terms of how they come across. I think Merope is more a product of the treatment that she’s receiving from her father and her brother, but also applicable to her appearance when we first meet her as well.

Andrew: Definitely, and I think the last name Gaunt also is symbolic of how, again, separated they are from the rest of society. To outsiders, as we see in this chapter, they are other. They are less than. They’re kind of stuck with them on the edge of town.

Micah: Yeah. And then Merope, the star, is often called the Lost Pleiad, because she was, at first, not seen by astronomers or charted like her sisters were. One myth says that she hid her face in shame because she had an affair with a mortal man.

Laura: Oooh, that’s a great connection.

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: There’s a lot of mythological ties with Merope, but this one seems to be the most applicable, and give us the best through-line, given her relationship with Tom Riddle, Sr.

Eric: While we’re on the subject, something that I never knew before… Stephen Fry, whose audiobooks I’m listening to this go round for the first time, pronounces it “Mare-oh-pay.”

Andrew and Laura: Hmm.

Eric: When I first read this book, I was like, “Oh, Merope.” [pronounces it “Mer-ope”] And then I realized how stupid that sounds; I’m like, “No, it’s Merope.” [pronounces it “Mer-oh-pee”] And now I’m kind of on a Merope [pronounces it “Mare-oh-pay”] kick. So I just want to bring that up as an alternative. I’m not sure.

Micah: [laughs] Well, you do you.

Laura: Listen, I think as Americans, we learned a lot of lessons about name pronunciations from Harry Potter. I will flat-out admit as a child, when I read the first three books, I thought Seamus was pronounced “Seem-us.”

Andrew: Same.

Laura: And that’s how I said it in my mind for three years, until I was reading it out loud one day and my dad was like, “No.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And “Hermy-own.” We all did the “Hermy-own” thing too.

Laura: Oh, yeah. “Hermy-one.”

Eric: All this to say, as long as our listeners at home know of whom we are speaking, then there’s nothing wrong with it. No shame in “Seem-us.”

Micah: No, I remember from studying mythology in college, the way that it was always pronounced was “Mer-oh-pee,” but that could just be a preference of the professor. It could be totally wrong. [laughs] I don’t know.

Eric: Yeah, I don’t think it’s wrong, but just an alternative.

Laura: Something I think is really interesting about Morfin and Merope is when you read their depictions and the way they behave, they come across as almost childlike. Morfin is playing some version of an abusive game with snakes that he’s capturing, and he’s literally sitting by the fireplace humming this pretty violent nursery rhyme that he’s apparently come up with. And Merope is… I mean, she’s really… it seems like she’s just trying to hide and fly under the radar. But in the chapter, Morfin is described as a man, and later on in the chapter, Dumbledore refers to Merope escaping the prison she’d called home for the first 18 years of her life once her father and brother were arrested, so these two are adults.

Andrew: Yeah, you get the impression that they’ve just suffered from a lot of stunted development. And Dumbledore is taking Harry into this memory to show the Voldemort origin story, and you can see why Tom Riddle, Jr./Voldemort had stunted development as well. He was born out of a false romance and has bad family origins, bad family bloodline. Underdeveloped.

Eric: It’s definitely a sympathetic look at Tom Riddle from the start. This might be my favorite memory; it’s harrowing to read through, but it’s such an interesting insight into somewhere that we otherwise would never look. And Marvolo’s pride for where he comes from, despite, as Dumbledore tells Harry, the family fortune that would have come with all this prestige is long squandered even before Marvolo was born. It shows how sad it was and tragic that… how are these people existing? And with no formal education. We’re shown the kind of home life that Merope has, and it’s terrifyingly tragic.

Micah: And Laura, to your earlier point about them keeping it in the family, Dumbledore mentions the Gaunts were “a very ancient wizarding family noted for a vein of instability and violence that flourished through the generations due to their habit of marrying their own cousins.” So there’s a very backwoods feeling here, and not just from them, but from the house when we first get the description. And we’re really following Bob Ogden as he’s navigating the pathway to get to the Gaunt house, and he doesn’t even realize – or at least Harry doesn’t realize, initially – that they’ve finally stumbled upon this cottage. And I think just more broadly, the descriptions that we’re getting… even when Morfin jumps out of the tree, right? Eric, I know you have something here as well, but it’s just almost like you’ve been removed from day-to-day society.

Eric: Yeah, something else I wanted to point out is that there is actually a physical trait that is assigned – and has been, since Book 2 – to Salazar Slytherin. I just had to find this moment in Chamber of Secrets. But when Harry first enters the Chamber of Secrets – this is page 307 – “Harry had to crane his neck to look up into the giant face above: It was ancient and monkeyish, with a long, thin beard that fell almost to the bottom of the wizard’s sweeping stone robes.” This phrase, “monkeyish,” this term, is actually echoed in his great-great-great descendant, Morfin, who is also given some simian, monkeyish, apelike characteristics. It’s a very interesting… I don’t know. What would you say it’s describing? More stature? Or prominent features in the face?

Laura: Yeah, no, it’s interesting. I feel like… doesn’t Marvolo get a similar description specifically around the way he outstretches his arms at one point?

Eric: Yeah, long arms.

Laura: So it definitely seems like there’s some kind of familial trait here, which makes me wonder was Slytherin himself inbred? I mean, it would make sense if he also valued…

Eric: Was so pure-blood crazy.

Laura: Yeah, it would make sense that that family line has always been inbred.

Eric: That’s an interesting thought. Here’s page 202: “This man was shorter than the first, and oddly proportioned; his shoulders were very broad and his arms overlong, which, with his bright brown eyes, short scrubby hair, and wrinkled face, gave him the look of a powerful, aged monkey.” Very interesting stuff, but what I love about that is it goes straight back to the source, right? Here is Marvolo bragging about being a descendant of Salazar Slytherin, and if you were to actually look at a statue of Salazar Slytherin, you’re like, “Ah, yeah, I can see it.”

Micah: For sure. And what I don’t think most people picked up on was that Southern Hagrid is actually on the back porch.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh! Of this shack?

Andrew: “Yeah, get off their lawn!”

Eric: Maybe he’s the reason that it’s half caved in. He sat on the roof by accident or something.

Laura: Well, we’re going to take one more quick break to go check our ancestry, to find out who our famous ancestors are and if there are any fun statues of them out there, but we’ll be right back after that.

[Ad break]

Laura: Okay, so we’re back, and we are at the point in this memory where Bob Ogden is now beyond just confronting Morfin, who is still wanting to brandish his knife at him; he’s letting Marvolo, his father, know that Morfin is being charged with not only performing magic in front of a Muggle, but performing it on a Muggle. And it’s really interesting in this whole exchange to see how Marvolo is really quick to defend his son for his criminal activity, but he’s so ready to throw Merope under the bus for the slightest mistake.

Eric: Ugh.

Laura: She drops a pan, and he loses his mind. Meanwhile, his son, as was called out in the Discord, literally has priors, and he’s just like, “Whatever.”

Andrew: “That’s my boy.”

Laura: “It was a Muggle. Who cares what happened?” Right? But it’s like, “Don’t drop the pans, Merope.”

Eric: His son can do no wrong; his daughter can do no right.

Laura: Yep, 100%. So we learn that Morfin had attacked a Muggle the prior day, leaving him covered with hives, and it’s confirmed that the Muggle that he attacked was Tom Riddle, Sr., who was riding by.

Eric: Who fortunately has forgotten about the whole thing.

Laura: Yes, riding by with his fiancée. And the reason that Morfin attacks him in the first place is because he’s caught on to the fact that his sister Merope is kind of sweet on this Muggle man. So Morfin not only attacks Tom Riddle, Sr., but he chooses this opportunity to throw his sister under the bus and say, “Yeah, I did it because she has a crush on that nasty Muggle.” But it feels like he’s also doing it in this moment to elicit a response from his father, because of course Marvolo is going to be embarrassed that it’s being revealed in front of this stranger that his daughter has feelings for a Muggle.

Andrew: Yeah. Tensions are already high, and he’s bringing this up when Marvolo is already in a vulnerable position. So what do you make of that? That he wants to get his sister into more trouble?

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s deflection, right?

Eric: Yeah, I do think… there is a point where Marvolo tells Morfin to be quiet, to basically stop confessing. There’s some ounce of intelligence and awareness in Marvolo that is lost on Morfin. And in that moment, I think Morfin is bored. I think that he wants to get a rise, to deflect, and put attention on his sister again, which works only too well. It’s just a really shitty thing to do because she is… poor Merope is still just constantly being abused there.

Micah: Right. And Marvolo, much like another wizarding family we know, thinks that last name and legacy trump criminal activity, and that only works in so much – to your point, Eric – if Morfin keeps his mouth shut, if he doesn’t keep basically bragging about what he’s done. And we see Marvolo really double, triple down on the fact that they’re the last living descendants of Salazar Slytherin, and the hope is that is going to somehow absolve his son from this crime that he has committed.

Laura: Right. And I mean, it’s kind of pathetic, very sad, actually, because as Ogden is like, “Okay, I don’t really care about your pure-blood status,” Marvolo is just like, “Look at this jewelry that came from my ancestor, Salazar Slytherin. We’re way too important for these Ministry summons, okay?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: “Look at this stuff. Isn’t it neat?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Exactly, and it’s like, these are probably the most valuable things that they own.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, one of them is a Deathly Hallow, for crying out loud.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Probably doesn’t know that.

Laura: No.

Micah: Doubt he does. So one of the other things with Marvolo that is very clear in this chapter is that he is physically abusive of Merope, so much so that it suppresses her magical abilities. And this comes up when Dumbledore is talking about how she was able to brew a love potion that could then keep Tom Riddle, Sr. under her control. So clearly, because of the way she’s being treated, her magical ability has been suppressed, and we’re all too familiar with that from another sibling of another character that we know very well.

Eric: It’s interesting because one of the things that I loved about the Fantastic Beasts film series… you guys remember that? Existed for a couple years?

Andrew: Yes, good times.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Heard of it.

Laura: I remember something about that.

Eric: This idea of an Obscurus, or an Obscurial, as the person who has an Obscurus. And it’s when your magic is suppressed, it turns inward and eventually explodes out of you, the way we see it happening with Credence. Let’s just say that only Movie 1 exists. But yeah, so I was thinking with Merope here, what we know about her, she very easily could have been on the path to developing something like an Obscurus.

Andrew: If she wasn’t already, right? We don’t know for sure that she wasn’t, because you can go in and out of it, transform if you want. It’s Morfin time, as has been brought up in the chat.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but I think it’s a good connection, because both of these girls have faced great tragedies that weren’t their fault. In Merope’s case, just her family members.

Eric: And Ariana, for being… we know what happened with her. She also was traumatized and had to be kept…

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Laura: I mean, I would venture to say that probably what saves Merope from that fate is her father and brother being carted off to Azkaban.

Andrew: Ooh, yeah.

Laura: Right? And so then she’s able to escape, as Dumbledore said. She’s able to escape that life, and it’s not… the circumstances are not great, but she does the only thing she can think of to do. Because again, we know neither of the Gaunt children received formal educations. It also made me want to ask the question about descendants of Salazar Slytherin. Do we think that the descendants of Slytherin chose not to send their children to Hogwarts once he left school?

Eric: Oh, oh, that’s interesting.

Andrew: I bet so.

Laura: And that’s a multi-generational form of protest. They’re like, “We’re going to be ignorant.” [laughs]

Eric: So none of them ever… yeah, wow. That makes it more dangerous.

Andrew: “If he’s not there, the school’s not worth our time.”

Eric: Wow.

Micah: I can see that. So I did want to briefly mention Tom Riddle, Sr. and Cecilia…

Eric: [singing “Cecilia” by Simon & Garfunkel] “Cecilia…”

Micah: … because I think they are very much the Muggle world equivalents of the Malfoys and other pure-blood families that we encounter in this series, because it is very interesting that both Tom Riddle, Sr. and Marvolo Gaunt are looking down on each other.

Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. And Cecilia has this line where it’s like, “Couldn’t your father clear that out? That hovel over there?” And he’s like, “Well, actually, it’s not our property, believe that or not.”

Micah: So I know Marvolo is an ass, but I want to make sure we give Tom Riddle, Sr. his due here as well, [laughs] because he’s not a nice guy.

Laura: No, he’s not.

Micah: From what we see.

Eric: Well, I still feel bad for him.

Laura: No, he’s not, but he also is a victim of what is going to happen to him without his consent. And we do learn a little more about that later, where Dumbledore does his guesswork, as he calls it earlier on in the chapter, to kind of piece together what happens. But it’s very clear that after Morfin and Marvolo go to Azkaban, that’s when Merope seizes the chance to bewitch, if you will, Tom Riddle, Sr. and preggo and get out, and we’re later going to learn about what happens to her after that. But bringing it back to Ogden’s memory, being the subject of what Harry and Dumbledore are looking at tonight, Ogden ultimately flees after trying to save Merope from her father’s physical abuse. When he does that, Morfin tries to attack him, and so he just gives up and takes off. We find out later that he actually came back with reinforcements; that’s one of the other details that Dumbledore fills in the blanks on when he and Harry get back to the office. But Harry, who’s being very observant here… which I’m really proud of, because there are a lot of times where Harry is not observant at all…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … and he misses stuff that is so infuriating. He actually notices the ring that Dumbledore was wearing the night that they went to get Slughorn. He notices that the stone that has the Peverell coat of arms on it is cracked.

Andrew: Yeah, good catch. And I think this is one reason, as I think we may have said earlier, that Dumbledore is taking Harry into these memories, why he is sharing these wild guesses with him and taking big swings. He wants Harry to start thinking critically about Tom Riddle, Jr.’s and Voldemort’s life, so he can figure out the pieces and ultimately defeat Voldemort come next year. So it makes a lot of sense why, we were asking earlier, should Harry trust Dumbledore? I was asking earlier, should Harry trust Dumbledore when Dumbledore is like, “Yeah, these are big guesses,” but this is all to get him thinking differently and critically, and we see it working. Dumbledore must have had a gleam of triumph in his eye, seeing Harry think critically about all this.

Laura: Gleam of triumph, but also being like, “You’re still going to have to figure some of this out, my man. Have fun.”

Andrew: Yeah, the clock’s a-ticking.

Eric: “Gee, I hope your classmate summons Horcrux books for my study after I die at the end of this year. Hope she thinks to do that, because otherwise there’s no plot next year.”

Andrew: [laughs] “So yes, please do share this information with Ron and Hermione. I totally trust them, and that’s why you can share this info.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, I feel like he knows he’s going to share it, probably regardless of what Dumbledore tells him to.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Right.

Eric: But he’s like, “Please tell them not to tell anybody.”

Andrew: Yes. Well, it’s an important thing to add.

Eric: Like, “Yes, Harry, it’s okay. You can. But can you tell Hermione not to tell her,” what, one other…? Does she have any other friends besides Ron and Harry?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I feel like the one I’d worry about is Ron, honestly. And I love Ron, but Ron sometimes runs off at the mouth.


Odds & Ends


Laura: Any other odds and ends we want to touch on before we get to MVP?

Andrew: I just wanted to make clear here at the end what were the big reasons why Dumbledore showed Harry this memory, this specific memory? We’re introduced to Horcruxes…

Micah: I’m so glad you asked, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. What do you think, Micah? Why? [imitating Dumbledore] “Why did I do it? Tell me.”

Micah: [laughs] It’s all about the Horcruxes, baby.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, baby.

Micah: That’s what it comes down to; it was to reveal the ring and the locket. And then in just a few chapters from now, we get the Mrs. Cole memory, where Dumbledore proceeds to get her drunk to get the information out of her, but that’s really to reveal the cave location to us and the importance of where Voldemort may have hidden one of his Horcruxes. And then a little bit later on in Half-Blood Prince, we get the cup memory with Hepzibah Smith in Chapter 20. So the memories are really… yes, they are to give us backstory on Voldemort, but it’s really to allow, I think, both Dumbledore and Harry to start to figure out what items Voldemort used for his Horcruxes.

Andrew: Yeah, and even though Harry is a kid, I think probably Dumbledore finds it very helpful to bounce ideas off of somebody. So there’s that stuff; great points, Micah. It’s all about the Horcruxes, hashtag. But also, like I said earlier, just establishing Tom Riddle, Jr.’s origins. He was born out of a love potion, his parents never loved each other truly, and his birth came under false pretenses, and his mom’s side of the family were Muggle-hating impoverished loners who no one liked. It just all builds a case for why Voldemort became the person that he did, and why he couldn’t foresee love being a powerful weapon.

Laura: Yeah, and it is so fascinating to see his family of origin, even though he doesn’t grow up with them, because he places so much emphasis on being a descendant, a direct descendant, of Salazar Slytherin…

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: … and it’s like, “Honestly, man, if you had to pick which environment you would have been better growing up in, your mother’s family or your father’s family…” I’m not saying Tom Riddle, Sr. was any great shakes, but he would have had a better upbringing with his Muggle father than what ended up happening as a result of his pure-blood mother and her actions.

Eric: Yeah, you’d have to go back several generations or more to find a descendant of Salazar Slytherin that was anything to be proud of, I think.

Laura: Well, we’re going to ask a related question in our Lynx Line coming up.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: But before we get to that, it is time for MVP of the Week, and this week, we’re going to be giving Bob Ogden his flowers. I think he had some great moments in this chapter, so I wanted to ask y’all, what are the best Bob moments in the “House of Gaunt” chapter?

Eric: The bits of Bob.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: So when Gaunt says, “Can’t just walk in here and not expect my son to defend himself,” Ogden says, “Defend himself against what, man?” And the reason I’m calling that out is it sounds so American. “Hey, man.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Defend himself against what, man?” That’s my best Jamie doing an American impression.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs]

Micah: Eh, I can see a little bit of the British element to that, no?

Andrew: I guess. If you said “mate,” it would make more sense.

Eric: “Defend against what, man?”

Andrew: Oh, all right. Well, I still loved how blunt it was.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I’m going to give flowers to Bob for just escaping the shack. Marvolo might have made fun of some fancy shoes if he were wearing them, but they helped him escape with his life, so good for Bob.

Micah: I really liked… it was during the conversation where Marvolo was trying to absolve his son of what he had done to Tom Riddle, Sr., and Bob says, “It’s a matter of law, sir, not opinion.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And on a related note, when Marvolo pivots to trying to establish his superiority based on bloodline and his suspicion that Ogden’s family must be a bunch of dirty Muggles, Ogden says, “I am afraid that neither your ancestors nor mine have anything to do with the matter in hand.”

Andrew: Love it. There you go, Bob. There’s some love for you this holiday season. RIP.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: He deserves it.


Lynx Line


Laura: And now we’re going to get into this week’s Lynx Line. Slug Club level patrons over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, which was: What do you think Salazar Slytherin would have thought about the Gaunts as his direct descendants?

Andrew: Oooh. Justin, who’s listening live tonight, said,

“He would have just killed them. It’s undeniable that he was interested in his legacy. He left behind a Mudblood murder trap. I think we need to reevaluate Slytherin apologists in this new age of shameless grifting and racism.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh. All right.

Eric: Michael says, “He would view their living conditions as a lack of ambition.” I agree with that.

Andrew: That’s not very Slytherin-like.

Micah: Zachary says,

“I think he’d be overwhelmingly disgusted. Marvolo and his ilk are pretty much the Uncle Ricos of his name -“ nice Napoleon Dynamite reference “- boasting of their lineage but having nothing to show but words and a locket. I think if he could’ve chosen a modern family, it would be the Malfoys. They not only have wealth, but influence over the Ministry.”

Laura: Yep. Matthew says,

“I think if he saw them, he would be forced to accept the frailty of his bigoted worldview. His heart would turn, and he’d realize that Muggle-borns and pure-blood should all live together in harmony. Because that’s what people do when they see evidence that contradicts their worldviews, right?”

Andrew: Susan said,

“I think he would be super disappointed in the living conditions of his descendants, and while he might not like Voldy’s parentage, he might be pleased with his plans for the wizarding world.”

Eric: Kayla says,

“I think he would be amused by them. I think he would feel kind of respected but also kind of embarrassed. I think it would be one of those moments where you feel half good and half bad about the situation.”

Micah: And finally, Rachel says,

“I think he’d be happy to see his descendants have maintained their pure-blood status but dismayed by their living conditions. I’m not sure what he’d make of Tom Riddle, Jr., a half-blood, but also a very powerful wizard who deeply believes in what Salazar stood for.”

Eric: I do think Salazar would be super proud of how Voldemort wielded the Basilisk and attacked a bunch of students in year two. I think he’d be very proud of that.

Andrew: Thanks, everyone, who contributed to our Lynx Line today, and there are more responses over on the post if patrons want to go and check those out. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via the Spotify comments, the YouTube comments, social media, whatever is convenient for you. And speaking of feedback, our final episode of the year is next week, and we will close out 2025 with a special Muggle Mail episode, so look forward to that. [imitating Dumbledore] “Another year, gone.”

Eric: I also want to shout out real quick, Camille, who’s listening live, actually has a tarot podcast that she mentioned. So earlier, we were talking about Trelawney’s predictions. The podcast is called “Every Day Tarot,” and evidently she did a whole series of Divination in the Harry Potter books and how Trelawney is right a lot of the time, but doubts herself. So check out “Every Day Tarot” if you haven’t gotten enough tarot discussion.

Laura: Cool.

Andrew: You can visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, you can listen to our other podcasts, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: In William Shakespeare’s famous love story Romeo and Juliet, Juliet drinks a potion to fake her death, putting her to sleep for over a day. Where is she when she drinks it? The correct answer was her bed chamber. It’s a sad, sad moment. 58% of people with the correct answer said they didn’t look it up; good on you for remembering your middle to high school assignment. Congratulations, everybody. And the correct answers were submitted by PANTS!; A Healthy Breeze; Cheese Shark; Faking Your Own Death Is Peak Dumbledore, Actually; Gwen Weasley; It’s Juliet, not Yuliet; It’s Row-MAY-oh, Not Row-mee-Oh; Mercutio and Romeo should have got together; Mercutio sounds like a Harry Potter spell; QuidWitch; TeacherOfMuggles; and That Bookish Hufflepuff. Fun names as usual. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In this chapter, we first see Salazar Slytherin’s locket around the neck of Merope Gaunt [pronounces it “Mer-oh-pee”], or Merope. [pronounces it “Mare-oh-pay”] Which British queen popularized lockets during her reign, often wearing lockets to commemorate her friends and loved ones? Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website using the Quizzitch form located at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on our website doing some stuff, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. We’ll see you next week for our final episode of the year. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’ve got to go; it’s Morfin time. Bye, everyone!

Laura: [laughs] Bye.

Transcript #731

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #731, The Great MuggleCast Bake Off (HBP Chapter 9, ‘The Half-Blood Prince’)


Cold Open


Micah: You probably don’t bake a cake the same way I do, or Andrew does, or Laura does. We all follow different instructions, and maybe we add our own little flair to it, and maybe it tastes great, or maybe it doesn’t taste great.

Laura: All right, well, I think we need to have the Great MuggleCast Bake-Off now.

[Everyone laughs]


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app so you never miss an episode. And this week, why not try to follow some directions you found in someone else’s used Potions book? What’s the worst that could happen? It can’t make your Potions grade any worse. Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 9 of Half-Blood Prince, “The Half-Blood Prince.” And helping us with today’s discussion is Slug Club level supporter over on our Patreon, Audrey. Welcome to the show, Audrey.

Audrey: Thanks, Andrew. I’m happy to be here.

Andrew: Now, we’re going to ask you for your fandom ID. I think I know what your Hogwarts House answer is going to be based on the sweater you’re wearing tonight, but please give us your fandom ID.

Audrey: [laughs] All right, so my fandom ID: My favorite book is Goblet of Fire, my favorite movie is Deathly Hallows – Part 2, my Hogwarts House is indeed Slytherin, my Patronus is a chow dog, my favorite Hogwarts school subject is Care of Magical Creatures, and a cauldron of – I hope I pronounce this right – Amortentia would smell, for me, like fresh hay, clean leather, jasmine, and salty popcorn.

Andrew and Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: Think you should go to a movie theater with a cowboy. That’d help you check a couple of those boxes, at least.

[Everyone laughs]

Audrey: That would do it.

Andrew: Well, it is the holiday shopping season, and we want to remind our listeners that we have special deals you’ll want to act on right now. First, our Patreon keeps this show running as smoothly as the surface of Harry’s cauldron, and we have our best offer of the year: Get 20% off an annual membership. Just visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and sign up for an annual subscription at the Dumbledore’s Army or Slug Club level; this will guarantee you next year’s gift, plus a year of ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, access to our member-only Potter communities, a chance to cohost MuggleCast one day like Audrey is right now, and so much more. This offer is only available to new or former patrons. Again, that’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you can click the promotional banner at the top or use code “HOLIDAY” at checkout. Don’t forget, you can gift memberships as well, so if you want to ask Santa for a Patreon membership as a gift, you can do that now. Just go to Patreon.com/MuggleCast/gift.

Eric: In bonus MuggleCast this week, we are going to be figuring out who will be getting what for their Secret Santas on three occasions. One is Christmas at Malfoy Manor in 1997, the others, Dumbledore’s Army Christmas 1995, and Hogwarts staff meeting 1992. So all three of these occasions, we’ve randomly assigned – and I mean random – Secret Santas to all of these characters, and are going to be talking about their gift-giving expertise. It’ll be a really fun thing to listen to this holiday season.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. So check that out over on the Patreon. And also, just one more holiday promo: You can get 20% off all merchandise at MuggleCastMerch.com right now. You can get cozy this winter with a MuggleCast hoodie, maybe Laura’s pants, or a long sleeve tee, and all of these offers run now through December 19, so please act now.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: And now let’s jump into Chapter by Chapter. Like I said, Chapter 9 of Half-Blood Prince, “The Half-Blood Prince.”

Eric: We last discussed this chapter on MuggleCast 389, titled “Quirky Walrus,” which was airing on October 15 of 2018.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 389.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Micah: Is Hagrid even qualified to teach a NEWT-level course?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I mean, I don’t want to rag on Hagrid, but…

Andrew: Too late.

Micah: I don’t think he’s qualified to teach regular courses, much less a NEWT-level course.

Andrew: I think that they have no other options when it comes to Hagrid. He’s the best that they’ve got, so just let him do his thing. But I’m also trying to think right now… does anybody really pursue Care of Magical Creatures outside of Hogwarts? You know what I mean? Does anybody go on, that we know of, to take a position in this type of field? I don’t think so. So maybe Dumbledore also kind of sees it as like, “Well, do we really need somebody seriously teaching this class in a highly professional manner?” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Nobody’s pursuing to be… nobody’s trying to be a Magizoologist, just like Newt Scamander, and I think…

Andrew: Right, Newt wrote that book, and they were like, “Well, we don’t need anybody else to work in this field. Newt’s got it all done.”

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Micah: [in a nasally voice] Well, I think that was a great clip.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Do you think you sounded nasally? I don’t think you sounded… you definitely sounded younger; I don’t know about nasally.

Micah: Younger, okay. I’ll take that.

Andrew: Wow, we were brutal. And playing that right now during the holiday season? Oof. So sorry, Hagrid.

Laura: Rough.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Well, as we get into this chapter discussion, it’s the first day of school. Does that make any one of us want to say anything in particular?

Micah: Welcome back.

Eric: And…?

Andrew: No, Micah.

[Laura laughs]

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

Micah: Well, no, you say that when you’re on the train. What do you mean, when you’re at school?

Andrew: But it’s also the first day of Hogwarts.

Eric: What’s it doing at the top of the doc? Somebody put it in the discussion.

Micah: No, no, no, no.

Andrew: I added it.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: Oh, train ride only. Okay.

Micah: “Train wreck” is more like it.

Eric: Oh, oh, all right. Well, anyway, it’s the first day back at school, and something that stood out to me throughout this chapter is that there are actually a few good teachers at Hogwarts. Harry has kind of a mixed result first day back, and I wanted to highlight some of the different teaching styles and methods of the teachers we come across today, starting with McGonagall. Now, we don’t have Transfiguration class with McGonagall today, but all the Gryffindors nevertheless meet with her in the Great Hall before the first period, and she’s assigning them their timetables, but it’s this malleable thing because she still needs to have a conversation with each of them about their OWL results. And Micah, I know you were a little concerned about efficiency here.

Micah: Yeah, when I was reading it, I just didn’t understand why there was no way for them to confirm OWL results and issue schedules before the start of term using, I don’t know, magic?

Andrew: [laughs] Wait, what?

Eric: To name a method?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Now, I will say, I did think about this a little bit more, and perhaps McGonagall didn’t know that Slughorn was going to be coming to Hogwarts, and that switched things up a little bit with… we see it with Harry and Ron in this chapter, where they weren’t planning to take Potions, and then they end up taking Potions. So I could see that, but she goes through a lot more than just that, with Neville and with other students, so I don’t know. It’s just…

Laura: Yeah, I feel like with that, it would be just a magical find/replace situation. So I think this is just for the plot; this is so that McGonagall can have some of the conversations that she’s going to have, specifically pumping Neville up and throwing some shade at his grandmother. I think that’s why this is here.

Andrew: I do think that if they used magic for literally everything in their lives – which it kind of seems like they could – then what are they going to do all day? So this kind of keeps them busy; it keeps their brain active.

Eric: Yeah. I just think it’s cutting it kind of close. They have to get off to their first period, and if they’re still adding and dropping classes that morning, that’s…

Andrew: Well, what’s Hogwarts without some chaos? We’ve established this many times over the years.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I forgot the students forgot to add to the chaos quotient for the year so that the school can keep running as disastrously as it does. Anyway, we mentioned this a moment ago, but McGonagall remembers that Harry was on track to be an Auror, that that was an aspiration for him. So she, in her conversation with Harry, asks him why he’s not taking NEWT-level Potions. And this just reminds me of the very excellent chapter from the last book, “Career Advice,” where she goes toe to toe with Umbridge and says, “If it’s the very last thing I’ll do, I’ll make sure this boy becomes an Auror.” Some teachers might say that; she’s walking the walk. She’s living it now. The fact that she checked in with Harry, who for some reason – say maybe an owl got lost – wasn’t aware that he’s still eligible to take Potions this year… to what was said earlier, I think this was a last minute switch with Slughorn and Snape, maybe. But it’s good that McGonagall is here, because otherwise he would have missed out, Harry. And Ron.

Audrey: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting how much McGonagall is having to do here, and I really feel like – and I could be forgetting this from a previous book – but Hogwarts could really benefit from a career counselor or a guidance counselor.

[Eric laughs]

Audrey: I had one in college; okay, I came in as a freshman, and I said, “I want to graduate with this degree,” and they said, “Okay, you need these prerequisites that you’re going to get in your first two years, and then your junior and senior year you’ll have those prerequisites done, and you can do these classes.” And then when I wanted to switch majors two years later, they said, “Okay, well, here’s what you’ve got done, here’s the things you need to catch up on, and here’s what your path looks like.” And I feel like that’s a role they could definitely have at Hogwarts that would go very far for a lot of the students, especially the ones that don’t know what they want to do.

Eric: Yeah, makes sense to me. But yeah, regarding Neville, it’s really interesting, because Neville is not somebody that McGonagall has ever been warm to. Neville is not an exceptional student – that is well known, well documented – but McGonagall actually pays him a compliment, and it has to do with what happened at the end of last year at the Ministry. And regarding his class schedule, she encourages him to take Charms. She is not as critical of his OWL grades as Neville’s gran apparently is, and McGonagall offers to fight her.

[Andrew and Audrey laugh]

Eric: So it’s pretty good stuff, honestly. McGonagall is a great teacher.

Andrew: Well, and I think you see this come up a lot in the Muggle world, too, where your parents want you to go down a certain path in life, and it’s really nice to see McGonagall being like, “Follow your heart, not what your grandmother wants you to do.” And that’s a sign of a good teacher, a good role model.

Laura: Yeah, especially someone who’s also not trying to force you down their particular path of expertise. She’s totally comfortable being like, “Yeah, this isn’t really it for you.”

Andrew: Yeah, it takes a special person to be a Transfiguration teacher, Neville, and I’m afraid you just… you’re not cut out for it.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, yeah, she just knows his strengths, and again, she tells him he can’t take Transfiguration because she knows he wouldn’t be able to… or she feels he wouldn’t be able to keep up with the course load, and I’m like, “That’s the kind of teacher that all of these teachers should be, frankly.” I wish we saw more of the teachers checking in with people in this way.

Micah: Definitely. And we get a pretty good balance, or maybe you would even argue imbalance, as we start to go through this chapter. McGonagall, and you have Snape, and then you have Slughorn, and you really get a sense for their teaching styles, and you see not just maybe what their teaching styles are, but how they are as human beings too.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And we won’t mention it too much, but Hagrid waves at the kids, and I think he’s expecting to see them.

Micah: Well, sorry.

Eric: Audrey, you had one other point about sassy McGonagall?

Audrey: [laughs] I love when sassy McGonagall comes out, because she’s kind of the sleeper sass in the books. But I like that she said, “Just because Augusta failed her Charms OWL, the subject’s not necessarily worthless” to Neville, reminding him that his grandmother did fail her Charms OWL. So I thought that was really funny.

[Andrew laughs]

Audrey: So in the same breath that she was saying, “Transfiguration, not for you,” she also lifted him up and said, “But look, you did something that your grandmother didn’t do, and you don’t always have to follow her path.” She’s kind of encouraging his “That’s your dream, Dad, not mine” moment.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And again, to what Andrew was saying, our parents have these opinions on these subjects or these disciplines, and might not be our wishes.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: The fact that Neville scored that highly on his OWL shows that he is actually really good at Charms.

Andrew: Here’s an example four of us can relate to: Do you remember telling our parents, “Yeah, I’m doing a podcast; I want to do more of that”? They’re like, “Uh, okay, kid. Yeah, sure, whatever. But stay in school, please.”

Eric: We’re now starting the trend of any time we’re impersonating our younger self, we’re going to [in a nasally voice] hold our noses like this.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Even if it was only six years ago, we’re holding our noses to talk about ourselves.

Laura: I do think it’s really interesting that Augusta refers to Charms as a soft subject, because I think you hear this a lot in the Muggle world too. There are certain types of disciplines that people tend to stereotype and scapegoat as being easy A’s and soft subject matter. I think a lot of the times social sciences, unfortunately, get that bad rap, and it’s really not fair. I don’t think it’s fair to Charms either to consider it soft.

Micah: Yeah, our Head of House teaches Charms.

Laura: Right!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, for Charms specifically, though… I do agree with you, Laura; in general, a lot of those social sciences… no, those are big disciplines worthy of as much or more respect, in fact. Liberal arts, too; give all the funding to liberal arts. But no, for Charms, we just don’t see enough of the class to think of it as being anything, I think, competitive. If you’re… even when Flitwick is preparing the school for the final battle, the kinds of stuff he’s doing – which no one but an accomplished Charms professor could do – are still having to do more with, I don’t know, making it glitter in the sky, and not so much vivisecting your enemy. [laughs] So it just kind of… Charms is viewed as soft because you can conjure hot chocolate, and people just think of it for whatever practical application they themselves have used Charms for, and so they’re maybe not understanding that somebody who can do that easily is actually as accomplished.

Micah: Yeah, but they play a very big role in Sorcerer’s Stone. Without a lot of charms, the trio wouldn’t have made it very far.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Laura: Yeah. I think this is all probably because charms are not seen as probably a hard defensive strategy, nor are they an offensive strategy. So I guess because it’s not the most assertive subject matter, that might be why people look at it… but again, it’s another example of people overlooking something that has plenty of value; it’s just not as black and white, I think, as sometimes people try to make these things out to be.

Audrey: Yeah, comparing it back to – Eric, you mentioned – liberal arts in school, I think people just maybe that aren’t as creative don’t value Charms, because you can get creative with a charm and that can be a defense strategy.

Laura: Right.

Audrey: Look at Wingardium Leviosa in Sorcerer’s Stone. I mean, I wouldn’t personally have thought to levitate the club and hit the troll in the head with it, but it worked.

Eric: Great point. We also get a mention of Divination. So it looks like Firenze, the centaur, is here for another year; he passed Dumbledore’s rigid scrutiny that he applies to all his teachers here at Hogwarts, and he’s done a good enough job that Divination is now being co-taught with Trelawney and Firenze. Of course, I was joking about Dumbledore caring about the teaching quality, but it’s nice to know that Firenze isn’t homeless now that Trelawney is able to come back full time, and it looks like they’re actually splitting the course load, which gets mentioned. None of the trio are taking Divination anymore; they’re happy to see the back of it. But it’s interesting that how they’re splitting it… they’re splitting it by year, which I don’t know about you guys, but I feel like if I had year three Divination with Trelawney, year four with Firenze, year five back with Trelawney, year six with Firenze… I feel like that would be too much whiplash to the years, and I wonder if there’s not a better way they should be splitting that.

Laura: Yeah, also just whiplash in terms of approach, because we’ve seen the approach of Trelawney, and in the last book we got to see the approach of Firenze, and they are wildly different in terms of the way they view the discipline.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. If there were any other two professors teaching one course, it may have been different, but yes, to your point, Laura, they are opposite one another, and there’s a debate about the quality of Trelawney’s teaching to begin with. So yeah, that would be a lot of whiplash, juggling these two over the course of your Hogwarts career.

Eric: I know in particular, Parvati is very upset.

Laura: She is, yeah. When McGonagall confirms for her that, “Sorry, you’re going to have Trelawney,” she walks away looking kind of disappointed, which I thought was so interesting because for the longest time, Parvati and Lavender have really thought the world of Trelawney. And I guess they got a better teacher last year, but also I think this is just another characterization of Lavender and Parvati being ultra-feminine to the point where their priority would be having the hot teacher because he’s hot.

Micah: What’s interesting, too, about both of these professors is they’re being kept at Hogwarts for their own protection, so it’s interesting that they’re co-authoring this subject.

Eric: That’s a very interesting point.

Micah: I mean, I guess Dumbledore could let Firenze go back into the forest, but it probably wouldn’t be the best.

Eric: No, yeah. I think to your point, Firenze is as cut off from his people as Trelawney is from anywhere else she could go. Let’s get into the Defense Against the Dark Arts class – this is our first one to be taught by Severus Snape – and this is going to go for me in the category of bad teachers, horrible teachers. Snape is as bad as ever. Just in one example: Snape does his thing, he gets up in the class, he usually is asking a question anyone in the class can answer, he asks a question, only Hermione knows the answer, and instead of praising her for a correct answer, he first doesn’t even pick her. He looks around the room; he’s pausing, dragging things on. Then he audibly sighs and says, “Okay, Miss Granger,” she gives the correct answer, and he berates her for saying that her answer is too close to what it says in the DADA book. Now listen, the uses of nonverbal spells was the question. When he clarifies, his explanation is also not, pretty much at all, any different than what Hermione said, so she was right. And Harry notes anyone else – any other teacher in the school – would have given Hermione ten points for a correct answer. Not Snape.

Micah: And we see that happen in the next class with Slughorn, also a Slytherin.

Eric: Yes! Yes!

Micah: So not all Slytherins are Snape.

Andrew: Yeah, Hermione shouldn’t be discouraged from reading the book and having an answer that she prepared and remembered. This is something to be celebrated, not punished for.

Laura: This is just Snape being Snape, though.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: This is not the first time we’ve seen him be this way in class, not the first time we’ve seen him ignore Hermione when she was the only person with her hand up.

Andrew: But maybe, just maybe, he was going to be in a better mood now that he has the role he has so yearned for over the years.

Eric: That’s the hope, isn’t it? That’s the hope.

Andrew: Go ahead, Audrey.

Audrey: I was going to say, I mean, Laura, you said that it’s not the first time this has happened; it happened in the very first class with Snape, the very first Potions class. She’s raising her hand, and he keeps calling on Harry, and Harry finally is like, “I think Hermione knows the answer,” and then he calls her a know-it-all, I believe. So I mean, it happens. It’s been happening for six years.

Eric: Yeah, they’re all used to it. It’s just any thoughts that Snape would be easier now that he’s getting everything he ever wanted out of being able to teach this class, yeah, sorry, no luck. Not for this group of students. And what’s particularly alarming, I think, for me, out of this whole class, is that Snape is dissatisfied that Harry has not been cursed, I guess, halfway through, or jinxed. And I’m going to read it directly from the book. We all know what’s happening, but it says, “Ron, who was supposed to be jinxing Harry, was purple in the face, his lips tightly compressed to save himself from the temptation of muttering the incantation.” So Ron, bless him, he’s trying nonverbal spells. “‘Pathetic, Weasley,’ said Snape, after a while. ‘Here – let me show you -‘ He turned his wand on Harry so fast that Harry reacted instinctively; all thought of nonverbal spells forgotten, he yelled, ‘Protego!'” Snape is going to just attack Harry, and it’s only by the benefit of Harry’s much honed defensive magical reflexes that Harry doesn’t get hexed by Snape. But this gives Harry his first detention of the year.

Andrew: This is a guy who was just fighting with Lord Voldemort a few months ago, so you can understand why Harry would instinctively react like this.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: So it’s outrageous and frustrating for Snape to use Harry as a guinea pig. I mean, he should know that Harry has been through countless, at this point, traumatic experiences.

Micah: Not only Voldemort, but I think that Harry is just legitimately triggered in this situation, and that he has every right to be, considering how Snape treated him during Occlumency lessons in Order of the Phoenix.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And Snape is just looking for any opportunity to make Harry look foolish, so I say good on Harry for stopping Snape in his tracks.

Audrey: I think if Snape were a good teacher, which we’ve established he’s definitely not…

[Andrew laughs]

Audrey: … he would have demonstrated, I mean, a polite jinx, something funny or non-harmful on somebody that wasn’t Harry, knowing that Harry has gone through so much trauma, but he would have demonstrated on somebody at the beginning of the class. Say, “Here’s how it looks when you do it.” Obviously it’s hard to demonstrate a nonverbal spell, but to whatever extent that you can, I think he would have done that as a good teacher. Obviously, this was not the way to go. I don’t think he was going to harm Harry, because he is in a class of students in the middle of Hogwarts, but he was certainly going to humiliate him, and obviously, like Micah said, trigger Harry, based on all the things he’s been through in his years.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, he would have… you just can’t attack a student like that, and especially not Harry, to everyone’s point. You would make eye contact, you would obtain consent, you would let the student know; say, “Hey, come on up to the front. We’re going to do a… can I have a volunteer?” Right? Not just, “Weasley, you suck. Move aside. Here, Harry. I’m going to…” like that. It just… good on Harry. I think we’re all in agreement there, just… good on Harry.

Micah: There’s also zero trust factor here between Harry and Snape.

Eric: Yes.

Micah: It would be different if it was McGonagall or Flitwick or probably any other professor in Hogwarts.

Eric: 1,000%.

Micah: Because it’s Snape, Harry is extremely resistant right off the bat, and it’s just unfortunate that this happens to him. Like you said, he gets detention first class, which is not fair, in my opinion. The other thing… I think part of it is that Snape is looking for an opportunity here to really take Harry down a couple pegs, because he knows that this is Harry’s best subject, and he’s probably thinking to himself, “How can I embarrass Harry in front of the rest of these students, in front of members of Dumbledore’s Army? I am the DADA God, essentially, now that I’ve been given this role,” so I think there’s a bit of that at play here as well.

Eric: That’s a great point. And he mentions the Daily Prophet reporting of Harry being the Chosen One; he throws that in Harry’s face as if it’s anything Harry ever asked for, so he’s clearly sore about that. But I was trying to come up with some kind of explanation, like, “Snape can’t really be this awful, can he?” And I had a theory; I want to know what you guys think. We know from the way that this book opened that Snape is in an Unbreakable Vow with Malfoy’s mother to protect Draco, to make sure his mission with the Dark Lord succeeds. Draco is a Death Eater now, meeting one on one with Voldemort. So is Snape deliberately making Harry’s life awful in front of Malfoy, who’s also in this class, in order to keep up the ruse that Snape is not soft or on the good side? Because a lot of this is for Malfoy’s benefit. Malfoy is sniggering at all the right moments, etc., etc. What do you guys think?

Laura: Why not both?

Eric: [laughs] Classic Laura. “Both things can be true”?

Laura: Yeah, I really think so. I mean, I really like the point Micah brought up about Snape trying to take Harry down a little bit here, because we have to remember the only reason that Harry is still on track to be able to become an Auror is because Snape is no longer teaching Potions. So Snape has to know that had he still been teaching Potions, it would have blocked Harry’s path to be able to do what he’s doing right now, so he’s trying to take him down a peg in his best subject. Makes sense to me, and it’s also a good look for him in front of Malfoy.

Audrey: Yeah, and I mean, I personally think Snape just has fun being miserable. I think he knows he’s got one year in this position; there’s a curse on it, and he knows what’s coming, and he’s not going to waste it being nice all of a sudden just because he’s finally teaching the subject he wants to teach. He’s still just going to make the lives of the students miserable, because it’s fun for him.

Laura: Yeah. And to that point, Audrey, you brought up he only has a year in this role, he knows it, so yeah, he’s finally getting what he wants, but he knows what is at the end of that year, and he’s not exactly looking forward to it.

Andrew: I was wondering why any of the students didn’t bring that up to him, like Harry. “Hey, Professor, do you realize you’re probably going to be out of this role by the end of the year? So what do you think is going to happen to you?” I wonder what his response would have been.

Audrey: “So do you think you’re going to be dead by the end of the year?”

[Andrew and Audrey laugh]

Andrew: “Are you going to be dead? Tell me you’re going to be dead! Tell me you’re going to be dead!”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: All good points. And there’s something else: Andrew, you’ve mentioned what Hermione says after the fact, because Harry is pissed at Snape, and then Hermione says something completely unexpected.

Andrew: Yeah, I liked this moment where Hermione says that Snape was sounding like Harry, when Snape talks about the Dark Arts. “When you were telling us what it’s like to face Voldemort. You said it wasn’t just memorizing a bunch of spells, you said it was just you and your brain and your guts – well, wasn’t that what Snape was saying? That it really comes down to being brave and quick-thinking?” And to me, this reads as Hermione observing the deep passion that both Snape and Harry have for fighting the Dark Arts. If you’re passionate about something, you’re following your gut.

Laura: Yeah, I think it also speaks to the necessary respect that the subject matter is owed. Y’all know that I’m a true crime girly over here, and I am fascinated by the psychology behind serial killers and what makes them tick and why they are the way they are. It doesn’t mean that I worship them or that I think they’re great; I just find it really, really interesting. And in order to combat stuff like that, you have to be able to understand the machinations, right? And how these things work. And I think that’s what Hermione is really telling Harry here, is “He has to know the Dark Arts really well in order to be this good at it, just like you do.”

Eric: Yeah. But Harry just wishes Snape wasn’t so, I don’t know, loving about it, lovingly talking about the Dark Arts.

Micah: Do you think, though, perhaps it’s the fact that Harry doesn’t want to have anything in common with Snape?

Eric: That’s got to be true. That’s got to be part of it, because the less often that that’s pointed out, any similarity between them, the more that… what is it that Snape says after the…? Or Dumbledore says this of Snape, that “He would have liked to have gone back to hating your father’s memory in private.” It’s like they can hate each other in private. They shouldn’t be pointed out that they’re similar to one another, because they think of each other as their adversary. So a happier subject now; we go on to… it’s funny, this reverse, though, because we talk about we’re going to Potions class, and we expect Snape to be there and him to be awful, but this is easily Harry’s best Potions class for many reasons. Snape is not in it, and I have a question. Since we’ve been talking now about good and bad teachers, my question to the group is: Is Slughorn a good teacher? Because this class is pretty awesome.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Slughorn does everything right. He escalates the previous… everyone in this class is doing something new to them, right? It’s a challenge. And this can be awfully done under a bad teacher, but Slughorn invites questions and he incentivizes them; he sweetens the pot. He says, “Here’s a bunch of really complicated Potions that NEWT-level students can create, and here’s the coolest one of all – it’s called Felix Felicis – and for anyone that can make me the best Draught of Living Death, you’re going to get this bottle, and you will be lucky for 12 hours.”

Andrew: See, I think incentivizing makes him less of a good teacher. I think the incentive should be just getting good grades and continuing your… furthering your educational career.

Eric: What’s the matter, Andrew? Were you never good for a teacher so you could get a pizza party? Come on.

Andrew: I never won anything! Now, I agree, there’s probably going to be some differences in opinion here, different teaching styles and whatnot, but to me… and especially something like liquid luck. If it was just pizza, okay, but you’re going to make somebody lucky to, I don’t know, maybe cheat on a test in a couple days from now?

Eric: Get Death Eaters into the castle?

Andrew: Yeah, right, exactly. This prize might be a little too far.

Eric: Okay.

Micah: I think I need to see more than one class with Slughorn to be able to decide whether or not he’s a good teacher. I would also want to see how he teaches younger students…

Eric: Ooh.

Micah: … because this class that we see is at such a higher level where he’s not really doing any teaching; he’s just giving them directions on what they should be doing for the class, and expecting that they’re going to rise to that level, and so I don’t actually see him teaching them much of anything.

Eric: No, that’s incredible. There’s only 12 people in this class.

Micah: It’s more theater, actually. This whole class falls in line with Slughorn’s personality, and the fact that he lays out the potions and then he asks… and going back to what we were talking about earlier, it’s Hermione who answers all the questions correctly and gets the points for Gryffindor, unlike what happens in Defense Against the Dark Arts. But yeah, it’s all very much for show, and that’s why I think he is kind of dangling that incentive out there for the students, to say, “Hey, you know what? You do well in my class, you’ll get bonus.”

Eric: I tend to think of my favorite days in class are the ones that really, I guess, spurred me into action, were the ones with the incentive and the carrot. [laughs] Maybe that says more about…

Micah: But this is day one.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. No, and I couldn’t agree more, actually, as far as wanting to see how Slughorn would handle the children, the actual first and second years’ Potions, having to teach fundamentals. Can you really see him instructing, or will he be asking half the class about their grandparents? What exactly would he do for anyone that’s not Harry’s class?

Audrey: But at the same time, yes, it is his first lesson, and these are sixth year students going into this level. Maybe he does just want to see what they know, how they work, get to know their styles, and so this is a good way for him to sit back and walk around and see, “Where are these students at? They’ve been taught by this other professor; I don’t know what they’ve been taught. I don’t know where they are.” So it might just be a good opportunity for him to observe and see what he does need to teach. That’s giving him a lot of credit, but could be his strategy.

Eric: I like it.

Laura: No, I think you’re exactly right. I think he’s trying to assess the talent in the classroom. I don’t think there’s a problem with that; I don’t have a problem with the incentive to try and encourage the students to perform. The thing that I think is a knock against Slughorn is the favoritism. That is the big problem in his classroom, far and above anything else.

Eric: It’s not as overt as Snape’s favoritism.

Micah: Well, it’s ironic, though…

Laura: They’re kind of two sides of the same coin.

Eric: It’s interesting.

Micah: Isn’t it, though, that now Harry is going to become the Potions favorite after all these years?

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: It shows with the right teacher, you can do good stuff. [laughs]

Micah: And the teacher is actually Snape.

Eric: Something that occurred to me: So this is the first class of year six of NEWT-level Potions. The only people in this class – there’s only 12 students that make it – the only people in this class are the ones that Exceeded Expectations in their OWLs. So they’re working on what? The Draught of Living Death. Where have we heard of that before? This goes back to the first question that Severus Snape ever asked the class in Potions. In year one, back in Book 1, Snape asks Harry specifically, “What would I get with an infusion of wormwood and asphodel?” It’s this, the Draught of Living Death. The fact that Harry didn’t know this in year one causes Snape to berate him. This is such an intense potion that we now see how utterly absurd it was for Snape to pick the Draught of Living Death as anything that Harry would know anything about, and it’s a miracle that Hermione had ever heard of it back in year one.

Andrew: So in a way, this is kind of a full circle moment, because we’re going back to how it started for Harry in Book 1.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: And Eric, I would say we just get to it here; you mentioned a possible book mistake between Books 1 and 6?

Eric: It’s just that… yeah, so the infusion of wormwood and powdered root of asphodel are not mentioned at all as being ingredients to the Draught of Living Death. The only thing you hear about is the sopophorous bean that gets crushed. So unless it’s an omission, it’s… I kind of view it as an error, really, because I’d like to know how you infuse wormwood.

Micah: Speaking of the full circle piece, you were talking about how Snape berates Harry for not knowing about it in Sorcerer’s Stone, but it’s Snape who actually is teaching Harry how to brew it here in Half-Blood Prince.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: You’re shaking your head, but it is! He is following Snape’s direction.

Eric: Well, again, it’s a deeply punishing question for a first year, and it shows how unfair Snape has always treated Harry. And before we move on, I just want to say Hermione’s success in this class, or slight lack thereof, really does show that Hermione, who’s clearly the best at following what’s written in a book, is not going to cut the… bacon.

Micah: Bean?

Eric: Yeah, the bean. Exactly, she’s not going to cut the bean. Well, she’s cutting it; she’s not going to squish the bean. And it shows that – especially with Potions, but probably with everything – you need a level of intuition, and this is why Hermione does not win Felix Felicis here, is that Harry kind of substitutes the intuition by following a book written by somebody who knows their stuff, i.e. Snape, but Hermione is clearly following the directions perfectly, and she doesn’t win.

Audrey: And that’s got to be so frustrating. I relate to that so hard. In a lot of ways, I’m very much a rule follower; I follow the directions. When they would give you those worksheets in school that say, “Read all the instructions first before you do anything,” and the last one is “Don’t do anything and put your pen down” or whatever, and everybody else would do everything, I was the one who was sitting there with my pen down because I read the instructions. So this really… I related to this with… I can’t bake. I can’t cook. I mean, I can make some mean scrambled eggs, I can make a bowl of cereal, and that’s kind of it. I’m just… I don’t have the intuition. I can follow the directions of a recipe, and the result is just not nice. So I really felt her pain here; it’s just got to be so frustrating to sit there, especially to watch someone that you know has not historically been as good as you in this class, just to succeed all of a sudden, and she doesn’t know why at this moment.

Andrew: And when you hit those choke points, that’s when you might, Audrey, want to go to TikTok or elsewhere for some tips from others who have practiced it a lot, just like Harry is going to the Half-Blood Prince’s book, and this is why it’s no problem for Harry to borrow Snape’s notes, in my opinion, because that’s what you do. You get help from others. That’s what we’re taught growing up: Ask for help. That’s what Harry is doing here.

Eric: I’m just glad that Snape wasn’t like the many people that write recipe columns, and having a whole life story in the opening paragraphs. Can you imagine if he really wrote on the back of every page? “I once went to the sea, and it was there that I concocted this idea of crushing the bean with the knife.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Craziness.

Micah: Very quickly, when we were talking about the potions up at the front of the room… because I know with this book in particular, we like to tie it back to Chamber of Secrets.

Eric: Ooh, please do.

Micah: But Polyjuice Potion was also one of the brews at the front of Slughorn’s classroom, and it’s actually referenced that Hermione would, of course, know what it is, because she brewed it back in Chamber of Secrets.

Eric: So Harry’s new Potions book has writing in it, and speaking of writing – write, right – is what Harry does the right thing here? He takes credit for this thing he found in the book, he brews a perfect potion – Slughorn has never seen anything like it – and Harry gets the bottle of Felix Felicis. Yay, the hero wins, everybody.

Andrew: I actually don’t think there’s any issue with Harry leaning on Snape’s notes. First of all, he starts off, when he gets handed this book by Slughorn, by wanting to follow the textbook’s directions, but he’s overwhelmed by the amount of writing from the Prince! It’s all over the book! You can’t avoid it. So even if he really, really wanted to, you’re still seeing all of his notes, so in a way, it’s kind of impossible to avoid these. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with taking on some alternate directions. It’s risky, but he quickly finds out that they actually work really well, so why not continue to lean on them?

Eric: Harry fesses up in the Gryffindor common room. He’d like to do it sooner, he’s about to do it sooner, but people are eavesdropping because he’s famous now. So they go back to the Gryffindor common room, and Hermione has an issue with it. She says, “Well, it’s not like it’s your work,” and what I think she means by that is, “It’s not like it’s your intuition in Potions that let you succeed in me,” but she also is biased. She’s jealous, right?

Micah: Yes.

Eric: Because anytime somebody outperforms her… so I don’t find anything wrong with what she’s saying. I think that it’s the same problem that she says that I have with Harry, is that he’s passing this off as his work when it sort of wasn’t. It’s not his idea, anyway. But what Ron says is… Ron says, “But following these instructions could have gone either way. It could have been a disaster.” So does that equate? Or does that cancel out the advantage here?

Micah: So if you’re to take Hermione’s logic here, would you then argue that the work that’s being done by the rest of the students is not their work either? It’s the work of Libatius Borage…

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: … who put the directions into the textbook in the first place. I think the issue is that not all the students have the same direction available to them.

Eric: Right.

Micah: They don’t all have the written work of the Half-Blood Prince, only Harry does, so therein lies the issue. But at the end of the day, Harry still had to do all the work. He still had to brew the potion; he’s just following different directions. Look, you probably don’t bake a cake the same way I do, or Andrew does, or Laura does. We all follow different instructions, and maybe we add our own little flair to it, and maybe it tastes great, or maybe it doesn’t taste great.

Laura: All right, well, I think we need to have the Great MuggleCast Bake-Off now.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: See who makes the best cake.

Andrew: Well, or if Audrey makes me scrambled eggs, and I’m like, “Damn, Audrey, those are great scrambled eggs, good job,” she’s not going to be like, “Well, that wasn’t my work. That was some recipe I found online and they did it.” No, that was Audrey’s work.

Eric: Here’s the difference: If you’re assigned a novel, say a Shakespeare play, and all the students get the rare raw text of the Shakespeare play, but one of you – and this is going to date all of us, when we all went to high school – SparkNotes. One of us uses SparkNotes. This explains the meaning behind every line, every innuendo, every joke, every historical accuracy, everything that will be interesting. You get so much more out of the book by reading SparkNotes. This is a huge ad for SparkNotes, if those still exist. But everyone who doesn’t have that doesn’t have that opportunity. I would argue that what Snape has written in this book, by writing it in the book, it’s not alternate directions; it’s advanced, evolved, trial-and-error updated instructions. And so there, it’s more akin to SparkNotes, giving the answer to the students rather than letting them fiddle with it themselves.

Audrey: Is it the answer, though, or is it just a better recipe, for lack of a better word? I mean, should they not just be publishing these notes if this is what’s going to lead to success more often?

Eric: We know of Harry’s skills in Potions, which is nil, and he’s able to brew the perfect – or at least, the best – potion in the class, just by following these instructions. Ergo, these are really good… this is the answer to potion-making, essentially.

Audrey: But as a devil’s advocate, could that be because he’s finally receiving good instruction? From Snape – he doesn’t know that – but his direction hasn’t, from what we’ve seen, been great, so maybe he could be a really good Potions Master, and he just hasn’t had good instruction.

Laura: Right. I do think what works in Harry’s favor here is that Harry is not afraid to color outside the lines. Hermione is someone who is very much like, “I must color inside these lines,” right? So they’re both following instructions; they’re just following different instructions. I think what makes Harry successful here… it starts with the knife and the bean, right? Where he’s trying to cut it, and he’s not getting anything, and he goes, “Oh, what the heck. Let me just try this and see if it actually works,” and he sees, “Holy cow, it actually does work,” and that gives him the confidence to keep following the alternate instructions. So I think… I don’t have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is that it’s deceptive of Harry to pass this off as his own natural prowess. Honestly, if he had pulled Slughorn aside and been like, “Hey, so just to be real with you, there’s all these alternate instructions in this book. Do you want to talk to me about these? Because I would actually like to learn.” I think if Harry had taken the initiative to say, “Oh, wow, this is a subject matter where I could be better, and I could actually be creative in order to deliver a more quality product,” then I don’t have a problem with the Prince’s instructions.

Eric: Right, because Harry is using it to pass the class, but what if he found out why crushing the bean worked better, right?

Laura: Right.

Eric: Or took an interest in understanding what actually makes the Prince’s instructions superior in terms of theory and actual subject.

Andrew: Two other things: A, we can blame Slughorn here partly, I think, because why didn’t he check the book to make sure there weren’t a ton of notes scribbled in it? And B, why did Snape leave it in that classroom anyway? Shouldn’t he have been holding on to that himself?

Eric: It is shocking.

Andrew: I mean, those are clearly valuable, thoughtful, meaningful notes. Snape is someone who holds things very close to the vest. It seems like a major mistake on his part to have forgotten that book.

Eric: I’m honestly surprised he doesn’t break into Gryffindor tower when he first hears Slughorn praising Harry’s Potions ability and just take the book back.

Andrew: Yeah, and figure out what went on.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. Because he would want that back.

Micah: Maybe the book reminds him too much of Lily.

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: Yeah, because I wonder how often she would have been collaborating with him. I wonder how many of those notes were things that they came up with together.

Eric: Aw.

Micah: So it’s Harry’s by right.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “50% of my genetics come from the person that cowrote this book, or these Cliff Notes.” No, I’m interested in kind of figuring that out, because Lily Potter’s Potions acumen gets a reference here by Slughorn. He’s like, “She was a dab hand.” And it is interesting, but I do think that Lily was probably good at Potions, because that’s something that she and Snape either connected over, or because Snape was passionate about it, Lily, who was a genuine friend to him, also learned or had the benefit of learning some of these things at the same time Snape did. It’s really interesting. So Laura, you mentioned earlier, though, that Harry gains confidence from his success, and another problem is that this success and this confidence will lead to trust, and this is where Ginny has an issue. She happens to be overhearing them in the common room, and she says, “Let me get this straight.” She comes up to Harry and says, “You’re trusting the writing in a book, and you don’t know who wrote it?” And Harry knows immediately where she’s coming from, and he dismisses it. He’s like, “This isn’t the same as the diary.”

Andrew: Well, I mean, it’s worth asking Harry, and they do investigate it, and nothing comes up. But especially after the events of the end of Order of the Phoenix where Harry got played, it’s definitely worth asking this question.

Eric: Oooh. Yeah, that’s so relevant.

Laura: Absolutely. And I think it’s a great connecting the threads moment, too, because in Book 6, Harry is about to become very heavily reliant on a book with instructions from a stranger, just like Ginny did in Book 2, which is why she’s calling this out here.

Eric: Going back to our good teacher/bad teacher: Since we know who the Prince is, does the writing in this book actually make Snape a good teacher of Harry when all the ego is gone?

Andrew: He’s a good teacher. He knows his stuff. If he wanted to try, if he really wanted to, he could be a good, friendly, inspiring teacher, but he’s not.

Audrey: Could he?

Andrew: He’s a bad teacher who knows his stuff.

Audrey: Yeah, I mean, there’s a huge difference between being a good teacher and knowing what you’re doing. I mean, I’m good at things; I know I’m not a good teacher. I get very frustrated with people very quickly. So I don’t think this was the profession for Snape. He maybe could have gone into being a potion recipe… I don’t know, go into publishing. Publish all your tips and tricks, geez. Do something besides teaching, that you clearly hate. But obviously his path went a different way.

Laura: Yeah, Snape is definitely a subject matter expert, not a teacher. So he’s good with his expertise.

Eric: Fair enough, fair enough.


Odds & Ends


Eric: Let’s get into some odds and ends now at the end of the chapter. Katie Bell is the last remaining member of Harry’s original Quidditch team, and there’s a sweet moment in the Gryffindor common room where Harry is like, “Oh, you don’t need to try out. Come on.” She goes, “No, let me try out! Because teams have been ruined by playing the favorites.” I like that Katie Bell, who was on the Quidditch team before Harry ever was, is willing to go through the motions of trying out for the team.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s admirable. It keeps you on your toes, it prevents you from getting comfortable as a player, and it’s just interesting seeing her have this take in a book where there is a teacher, Slughorn, who likes to play favorites.

Eric: Yeah. And we mentioned early: Lily gets mentioned by Slughorn as being a dab hand at Potions, and again, I’m curious about the relationship between Lily and Snape and Potions.

Audrey: Yeah, one thing I thought about that I don’t think this is true, but it was kind of fun to think about: Maybe Lily was just a Potions prodigy, and maybe she taught Snape everything he knows, and he’s now passing this off as his. We don’t know.

Andrew: Aww. And that explains why he left the book in the Potions room, because he didn’t want Lily’s work so close to him.

Eric: And that explains why he loves Potions so much.

Audrey: Yes.

Laura: Yeah, I love that thought.

Andrew: Hey, hey, she’s the one potion he could never crack. Couldn’t figure that one out.

Eric: Another thing: Michael Corner… bit of an odd and end. This is more of an odd than an end. Michael Corner asks Professor Slughorn, “Have you ever taken Felix Felicis, sir?” And Slughorn gives what I can only assume is a completely honest answer. He says, “Twice in my life. Once when I was 24, once when I was 57. Two tablespoonfuls taken with breakfast. Two perfect days.” Guys, I’m curious, how have we not pulled this thread before? What circumstances do we think was Slughorn up to when he was 24 and when he was 57 that would have caused him to take this potion?

Andrew: 24, maybe he was wanting to go on a date with a gal. Maybe wanted some good luck on the date. 57, he was probably really struggling with a New York Times crossword puzzle that day.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I was going to say, it would be helpful to know, canonically, how old is he at this moment, because then we can just mathematically say, “Well, this is what was going on in the wizarding world when he was 57 and 24.”

Andrew: Apparently his exact age is not specified, so it’s a bit of a mystery.

Eric: But it’s definitely something to ponder. Listeners at home, send us your ideas via the MuggleCast@gmail.com email. We’ll read it on a future mailbag.

Micah: There are 24 hours in a day.

Eric: Okay, and there are 57…

Andrew: [singing “Seasons of Love” from Rent] “Five hundred twenty-five thousand…”

[Everyone laughs]


Superlative of the Week


Eric: Well, it’s time for MVP of the Week. For this one, we’re counting Harry’s line in this chapter, “No need to call me ‘sir,’ Professor,” as the undisputed all time great sassy Harry line. I polled everybody here – no, I didn’t – we all agree. So the MVP of the Week this week is what is the second best sassy Harry line of all time throughout the whole book series?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: So when Draco is teasing Harry about not being a prefect in Order of the Phoenix, Draco says, “You see, I, unlike you, have been made a prefect, which means that I, unlike you, have the power to hand out punishments.” And then Harry replies, “Yeah, but you, unlike me, are a git, so get out and leave us alone.” I remember having a chuckle about that when we were doing our last Chapter by Chapter reread.

Eric: I love it. For my MVP, it’s Harry: “It changes every day, you see.” That will never not make me laugh.

Micah: That’s in reference to…?

Eric: The news.

Micah: The news, that’s right.

Eric: “What are you doing?” “The news changes every day.” Order of the Phoenix.

Micah: So this is from Prisoner of Azkaban when they’re talking about, I believe, the Firebolt. Draco says, “‘Got plenty of special features, hasn’t it?” said Malfoy, eyes glittering maliciously. ‘Shame it doesn’t come with a parachute – in case you get too near a Dementor.’ Crabbe and Goyle sniggered.” Harry responded, “Pity you can’t attach an extra arm to yours, Malfoy. Then it could catch the Snitch for you.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: We don’t get all of these great clapbacks in the movies, and I hope they fix that in the TV show.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Mine’s a real throwback from Sorcerer’s Stone, and this is from when Dudley is telling Harry about the new Muggle school that he’s about to go to. “They stuff people’s heads down the toilet the first day at Stonewall. Want to come upstairs and practice?” And Harry responds, “‘No, thanks. The poor toilet’s never had anything as horrible as your head down it – it might be sick.’ Then he ran, before Dudley could work out what he’d said.”

Eric: Classic.

Audrey: Yeah, that’s a great one. And then I also threw it back to the earlier books. During the Dueling Club in Chamber of Secrets, Lockhart is showing Harry what to do. He says, “Just do what I did, Harry!” And Harry says, “What, drop my wand?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Audrey: That just always gives me a chuckle.


Lynx Line


Eric: And now it’s time for our Lynx Line segment. MuggleCast listeners who are Slug Club members over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast have participated in this week’s question, which was: In our chapter, Harry’s (usually favorite) Defense Against the Dark Arts is taught by Snape. Did you – meaning the listeners and patrons – ever have a subject that you loved be taught by a teacher that you didn’t like?

Andrew: So Barry said,

“I took women’s lit in undergrad. I really enjoyed the books, but the teacher only ever wanted to talk about how evil men are in the stories we read, which was a shame because there were so many more interesting topics to cover from those books.”

Eric: Rachel says,

“I loved English, but I had a (older) teacher during my freshman year of high school who shamed me a ton for reading fantasy and told me they didn’t count as real books(???). I ended up reading most of my sci-fi and fantasy books at home that year.”

Ooh, this gets me. This bothers me.

Micah: Tom said,

“I used to like the Civil War history and did pretty well with it in the past, but when my last teacher turned it into a football analysis, which I don’t understand at all, I failed the class because of the teacher. He sucked!”

Laura: Matthew says,

“Not as a student, but as a teacher. One student put in my evaluation that he had been looking forward to the class for years, and I had done such a miserable job I had ruined it for him. To be fair, I should have realized I was a bad fit for the class on the first day when nobody even looked at me during my lecture. Or maybe I should have realized it when someone shouted at the guest speaker, ‘Can you teach this class instead?’ Every few years, when I get a little self-esteem worked up, I remember that class and everything resets back to the way it was.”

Eric: Oh my goodness.

Laura: That’s rough.

Eric: Matthew, it’s rough. I’m sorry, man.

Audrey: So Robert says,

“I went to a Catholic minor seminary for high school and two years of college back in the early 1960s when things were really beginning to warm up in Critical Bible Theory. BUT, my Bible History teacher was very much like Professor Binns teaching History of Magic: lecturing from notes, reciting very dry lists of names and events, and offering absolutely no historical interpretation or relating the biblical stories with historical events from other sources – all of which I was getting very interested in exploring. Instead, the classes were boring and very discouraging. Only one thing still sticks in my memory from his class and it’s a question from the final exam: ‘Which king attacked, but didn’t take Jerusalem? Which king took, but didn’t destroy Jerusalem? Which king attacked and destroyed Jerusalem?’ I didn’t know the answer then and still don’t, but I do remember the question as an instance of the worst teacher and teaching I ever experienced.”

Eric: Oh, man. Yeah, I don’t think I’d have recovered from that either.

Micah: And ThatBatLady says,

“In my high school’s final year of compulsory subjects (before you get to take electives), I was really starting to get into accounting. For some reason, the teacher didn’t like me at all – going so far as to berate me for the way I tapped my pencil. As an adult I really enjoy dealing with finances and do quite a bit of it in my job. I’ve always wondered how far I’d have gotten if she didn’t put me off the subject – slightly spurred on by the fact that my cousin became a chartered accountant, and is doing very well financially.”

Eric: Augh. Yeah, that’s wild. I’ve… yeah.

Micah: You know… no, go ahead. I’m sorry.

Eric: Whenever you’re bullied by a teacher or shamed by a teacher, the teacher think they’re better than you, or the literature you read is less than what they read… like, get over yourselves. You guys are there for a reason; you’re supposed to foster the learning of the students and to push back against the changing tide of reading preferences of younger and younger classes every year. Come on, that’s not productive.

Micah: So I have one quick example here too. I was taking astronomy in college.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: It’s a subject that I was always interested in, so fascinated to learn more about it. And I remember distinctly we had a test scheduled on September the 11th. This was 2001.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: And we were all still not exactly sure what was going on, so we went to class, and I remember the professor saying to us, “Well, you know, these types of things happen all over the world all the time, so life goes on, and we’re still taking the test.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Wow.

Micah: Now, he did give everyone the opportunity to retake it, because I feel like there was quite a bit of backlash from a lot of the students, but that sticks out so distinctly in my mind, even to this day.

Eric: And that was with a bunch of New York natives. Everyone… that was in New York, right?

Micah: Well, upstate. But yeah, quite a few, I’m sure.

Eric: People who had family there…

Micah: And remember, it’s not just New York. I mean, everything that happened in Washington, DC and in Pennsylvania as well, and people from…

Eric: Yeah, my point was people’s family members could…

Micah: Of course. 100%, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, just wild. So thanks to everybody who submitted that slightly more personal Lynx Line subject. And if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or send us a voice memo recorded on your home phone or your computer. I don’t know why I said home phone. MuggleCast@gmail.com is our address.

Micah: And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 10, “The House of Gaunt.” Be sure to visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?! – just did a great Stranger Things Season 5 episode – for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Micah: And now it is time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: In this chapter, Dumbledore exposes his injured right hand to the whole school. Roughly what percentage of people in the world are right-handed, just like Dumbledore? Is that 55%, 65%, 75%, or D, 90? The correct answer was D; 90% of people in the world apparently are right-handed. So if you’re a lefty, you’re very special. 65% of people with the correct answer say they did not look that up, and this week’s winners include A Lefty Who Needs Left-Handed Scissors; A Righty with a Lefty Sibling; Almond; Ashley B.; Blue Man Groupie; Cara; Cheeseshark; DaVinci the Lefty; Dumbledaddy’s Not-So-Clever Idea to Put the Horcrux On; Eeylops’ Owl Leftorium; Glo; I play Fluffy’s Harp; Is a Northpaw a Thing?; Julie Ann Fae; Listening from Tanzania; Lockhart’s Last Brain Cells that Still Live in Hogwarts; Quesadilla Kayla; Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosey, Innie Outie, Forkie Spoonie; The Left-Handed No-Maj; The Ordinary Kid Who Joined the Slug Club with the Help of Some Crystallized Pineapple; The Real Slim Borty; and What About Righties Who Throw Leftie? Good names, everybody. We did it. And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: This chapter features both love potions and the Draught of Living Death, which puts the drinker into a sleep so deep it’s near death. In William Shakespeare’s famous love story, Romeo and Juliet, Juliet drinks a potion to fake her death, putting her to sleep for over a day. Where is Juliet when she drinks the death potion? And this will take you back to English class when you’re reading a play, and guess what? Quizzitch is your open book quiz, so you can use the SparkNotes for this one. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast/Quizzitch. If you’re already on our website, maybe checking out transcripts or the must-listens page or anything else at all, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav and send in a submission. Audrey, we want to thank you again for joining us.

Audrey: Thank you. I was really happy to be here. I had a great time.

Laura: You were great.

Eric: Great to have you.

Andrew: I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Audrey: And I’m Audrey.

Micah: Bye, everyone.

Audrey, Eric, and Laura: Bye.

Transcript #730

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #730, Oh Hell Doe! (HBP Chapter 8, Snape Victorious)


Cold Open


Eric: Again, where is the train going in a hurry? Why wouldn’t it at least park?

Micah: Why are we blaming the train?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, because it’s… no…


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we are your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app, and that way you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, don’t try to spy on your enemies without sharing your location. Our moms’ favorite MuggleCast segment, Chapter by Chapter, continues with Chapter 8 of Half-Blood Prince, “Snape Victorious.” Eric was kind of trolling the last two weeks, I feel like…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … they had written “highly acclaimed,” to preface what I just said there. And I thought you were making a reference to the Slug Club, Slughorn, that type of thing, but no, you were just bragging about Chapter by Chapter, you told me earlier this week?

Eric: Ahh. I was just bragging… you know, I feel like, after a certain number of years doing this, a certain number of episodes, we can start calling our own segments “highly acclaimed.”

Andrew: Fair.

Eric: But I immediately felt nervous about that, and so I changed it up this week, and thanks for reading just whatever I write in the doc there. [laughs]

Laura: It’s a lot of trust.

Andrew: Yeah, I know. I had a Ron Burgundy moment. But I will say, speaking of incredible women, remember, MuggleCast was featured in Oprah’s favorite book podcast on her website…

Laura: That’s right.

Eric: I’d forgotten about that.

Andrew: … so we could also say Oprah’s favorite segment.

Eric: Oprah’s favorite…!

Laura: Oh, man!

Eric: See? There’s no limit to this. Let’s keep going. Let’s keep hyping up our Chapter by Chapter.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, and we don’t even have to throw an “allegedly” in there to cover ourselves, because it actually is.

Andrew: It’s true.

Laura: I’m proud of us, y’all.

Eric: Does anybody have a physical copy of that? Oprah O Magazine, was it?

Andrew: No, I think it was online only. But it’s still online, so you can find it.

Eric: Okay.


News


Andrew: Well, before we get to Oprah’s favorite segment, Chapter by Chapter…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: … we have some “Aww” news to report. Dan Radcliffe wrote a letter to the new actor playing Harry Potter in the TV show, Dominic McLaughlin. And I just want to say, “Aww!”

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: He said, “I wrote to Dominic and sent him a letter and he sent me a very sweet note back. I don’t want to be a specter in the life of these children but I just wanted to write him to say, ‘I hope you have the best time, and an even better time than I did – I had a great time, but I hope you have an even better time,” Radcliffe said. “And I do, I just see these pictures of him and the other kids and I just want to hug them. They just seem so young. I just look at them and say, ‘Oh, it’s crazy I was doing that at that age.’ But it’s also incredibly sweet and I hope they’re having a great time.” I just thought that was heartwarming to know that he did that.

Laura: Yeah, it’s very cute.

Eric: It’s so heartwarming. There’s a video of this appearance on Good Morning America, and it is so… it’s just as sweet. It’s just… it shows that we really lucked out with the best Harry the first time around, and there’s such good will from that Harry into the new Harry and to all the young actors, and I just… every day I see a clip with DanRad, I’m like, “We don’t deserve DanRad.”

Andrew: Well, before we continue, it’s the holiday shopping season. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Thanksgiving next week in America.

Eric: Yay! We’re thankful for all of you.

Andrew: We sure are. And to show you our appreciation, we have some Black Friday specials to tell you all about. First, our Patreon keeps the show running as smoothly as snow falls on Hogwarts’s highest peaks, and we now have our best offer of the year. Get 20% off an annual membership to our Patreon; just visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and sign up for an annual subscription at the Dumbledore’s Army or Slug Club level. This will guarantee you next year’s physical gift, plus a year of ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, access to our member-only Potter communities, and a lot more. This offer is only available to new or former patrons. Again, that’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and click the promotional banner at the top, or use code “HOLIDAY” at checkout. I just mentioned bonus MuggleCast; what are we doing this week, Micah?

Micah: Well, in addition to being thankful for our listeners, we’re going to be doing a Thanksgiving-themed bonus MuggleCast segment talking about which of the Hogwarts Houses would host the best Thanksgiving feast. We’re also going to do a little bit of character analysis, maybe try and figure out who would give the best Thanksgiving toast, who would be the worst Thanksgiving dinner guest… we all have that one uncle; that’s really what I’m angling for there.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Who would win the pumpkin pie eating contest? So we’re going to have a lot of fun with it, and that’s coming up in bonus MuggleCast.

Eric: I feel like for this, there is a right answer, and it’s not close.

Micah: [laughs] There are no wrong answers.

Eric: Well, we’ll see. Can’t wait to get to bonus and talk about that.

Andrew: And a reminder, Patreon memberships can be gifted; just click the gift option when you go to sign up. So maybe you should add a Patreon membership to your wish list for Santa this year. Another perk we have during this holiday season: Get 20% off all merchandise at MuggleCastMerch.com. Get cozy this winter with maybe a MuggleCast hoodie, or Laura’s pants; those are highly acclaimed…

Laura: For real.

Eric: Soft, too.

Andrew: … or maybe a long sleeve tee. And if you’re down under, stay cool this summer with a short sleeve tee or crop top. Just use code “HOLIDAY,” once again, and check out. Laura, we’ve got to get you a pair of those pants. Have we ordered you a pair of those pants yet?

Laura: No, I actually just need to go ahead and ask you for a pair.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

Laura: Although, here’s the thing: Am I going to wear those out anywhere? [laughs]

Andrew: Yes! [laughs] Do it for the show.

Eric: Listen, Laura, this is a unique circumstance, because any pants you wear are Laura’s pants.

Laura: That’s true.

Andrew: That is true.

Laura: But I’m just going to have to explain to my neighbors when I walk outside and they see me wearing pants that say “Laura’s pants.”

Andrew: [laughs] I’m with you. That would be embarrassing.

Laura: There’s just going to be a lot of questions.

Andrew: “What an ego on her, huh?”

Eric: You should just be like, “Look, I’ve had to put my name on them because people keep taking them. Ugh!”

Andrew: Oh, that’s a good strategy.

Laura: That’s true. I can just be like, “Listen, it all starts 20 years ago when I got involved in this Harry Potter podcast, and then I traveled to LA one time for Podcast Awards, and I forgot a pair of my pants there, and they had to be mailed home to me. That’s the origin story.” But imagine me telling people in real life.

Micah: Imagine those looks that you would get.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: But you could also say, “Look, they’re really comfortable. Feel free to order a pair of your own.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: MuggleCastMerch.com!

Micah: “20% off.”

Laura: “We’ve got Black Friday sales going on right now.” [laughs]

Andrew: So help us out and get some fantastic deals in return. All offers end Friday, December 19, which actually is Laura’s birthday, so act now.

Laura: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah. Okay, we’ve definitely got to get Laura a pair before her birthday. I mean…

Laura: Yeah, for real.

Andrew: I’ll work on that. If you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, or you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter: Half-Blood Prince Chapter 8, “Snape Victorious.”

Eric: Last time we talked about this chapter was way back on MuggleCast 388, and that episode was titled “Grudge Victorious,” for October 8, 2018. Lot of eights. And in this clip that we’re about to hear, a listener sasses us, and we sass them back.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 388.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Eric: My question is, when Tonks and Harry jump off the train, the train is in motion. Where exactly does the Hogwarts Express have to be that it’s in such a damn hurry to get there?

Micah: You’d think she’d also be able to stop the train. If she’s going in to search it, she could just tell the conductor that she needs a couple minutes because she’s looking for Harry.

Eric: I mean, she’s an Auror, for crying out loud. You’re right.

Micah: It’s more dramatic, though, and that’s why this is almost a movie scene, right? Jumping from the train onto the platform before it goes back to London. I think, more than anything else, it sounds like something that would be well adapted to screen. I don’t really see the point of it in the book.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Justin Sharkey says, “The conductor has to go back to their family, duh.” [laughs]

Eric: But Hogsmeade is a wizarding village, duh, so why can’t his family just live there? I don’t know.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: That train has places to be.

Micah: Choo-choo.

Laura: Yeah, conductor, just move your entire family to a different village. [laughs]

Andrew: Micah, you did mention the scene getting adapted, so maybe we’ll have another chance with the television series.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: Maybe.

Laura: Well, I’m glad that we actually…

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Andrew: Go ahead. Keep talking, Laura.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: No, you’re fine.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: I’m glad that we actually featured that clip ahead of this discussion, because that’s really where this chapter picks up, is Harry being immobilized with a broken nose under the Invisibility Cloak after Draco finds him out at the end of the last chapter. And as was kind of pointed out, the movie changed the circumstance under which Harry was found. Of course, in the book, it’s Tonks that finds him, but in the movie, it’s Luna. So that was an area where they completely retconned the story, and stepped away from developing any of the Tonks and Lupin characterization and their relationship, which kind of makes their scenes in Deathly Hallows have less impact, I think. Does that strike anyone else as…? Why would viewers who haven’t read the books feel connected to the relationship between these two people and the tragedy of their outstretched hands and their dead bodies in the Great Hall, reaching out for each other?

Andrew: I agree with you. Those two moments were, in a way, fan service because of the lack of buildup that we weren’t getting in Half-Blood Prince, the movie.

Eric: That’s it, yeah.

Andrew: But I do like Luna coming to save Harry. It is a nice friendship development.

Laura: Well, and a nod to Nargles. Wasn’t it in the movie they said that she saw he had Nargles or something?

Eric: Well, it’s visible. You can see these tiny little floaty thingies in the shape of basically where his cloak is, so I mean… may not be Nargles; may be Wrackspurts. I’m not quite sure, but it’s under the Spectre-vision. I really like that little touch. But to your point, Laura, the character development of Tonks, or lack thereof, and her subplot… it’s gone from the movies, and by the time I’m watching part two of Deathly Hallows, I’m just like, “Oh, look, it’s that woman from Movie 5 and that guy from Movie 3. They’re holding hands, almost.” [laughs]

Laura: Right.

Micah: In fairness to Lupin, though, he was developed to an extent in Movie 3.

Eric: They’re also both just mostly absent from these books. It’s like Tonks, to my memory, isn’t in many major scenes left in this book, so to bring Nat Tena on for that scene… they made a decision, I guess. And I do ultimately like Luna finding him, but in the book, it’s a great way to get information from what else is going on, and just to understand, for Harry to understand, the increase in security that’s been placed on Hogwarts in general.

Laura: Yeah. Well, there’s just a lot of subtext that we get provided to us through these interactions, and we’ll talk about that more in a moment. But right before Tonks discovers Harry, Harry does have this sinking feeling that the train is about to take off, and it truly is; he feels it lurch as though it’s about to leave the station. Tonks finds him, and they jump off the train, but I’m wondering, what if no one had discovered Harry was missing before the train left? I mean, he would have been stuck all the way back to London, and that makes me wonder, how long would the immobilization have held? Presumably not forever, not indefinitely, right?

Eric: Right.

Laura: Because… I mean, do we ever get an answer about that, about how long something like this can last? I would think him also being geographically so far away from where it was cast would have an impact too.

Eric: I think these spells quite often wear off. I mean, not immediately, but I think at one point, Neville gets the Leg-Locker Curse put on him or something, and he’s hopping around. And sometimes it’s until somebody waves their wand and does the counter-curse, but I think something like Petrificus Totalus just slowly wears off.

Andrew: Yeah. It would be very, very dangerous if that type of thing could last forever. And you would think maybe the body was slowly but surely working to kind of break free of that. The resistance would somewhat wear it down over time.

Laura: You would think, yeah.

Micah: That’s a good point.

Andrew: But yeah, I mean, if the train had fully left, he probably wouldn’t have been found until they got back to Platform Nine and Three Quarters or wherever the conductor is sleeping that night.

Laura: Well, yeah, I mean, at that point, I’m sure there would have been a panic, because Tonks did note that she didn’t see him get off the train, so they know that he’s missing.

Andrew: “Stop that train!”

Laura: But I think it’s a good reminder that… wasn’t it Montague that got stuck in the Vanishing Cabinet for a month?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: So I guess I’m just saying this feels like it could be a potential security nightmare. Maybe part of the procedures of boarding and de-boarding the Hogwarts Express…

Eric: There it is.

Laura: … is that somebody should sweep the train and then cast… what’s the…? Revelio. Or is that just Hogwarts Legacy? I can’t remember.

Micah: Homenum Revelio. It’s used in Grimmauld Place in Deathly Hallows.

Laura: There we go.

Eric: Yeah, but again, where is the train going in a hurry? Why wouldn’t it at least park?

Micah: Why are we blaming the train?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, because it’s… no, it’s the most random thing in the entire world. This has never happened… it’s not like Harry gets off the train every year and it all of a sudden zooms the hell away. This is a thing that has never been shown to happen, but Draco somehow just magically knows that, “Yeah, it’s going to be back in London. See you. Enjoy London, Potter,” and he walks off. It’s a random ass thing, put in at the last possible second to shock Harry, then it turns out it’s real, and the train is really leaving, and it’s the forced way to get him to feel sorry about something that’s about to happen to him.

Micah: I think we’re over-sensationalizing this whole situation a little bit, because it’s not like he’s going somewhere dangerous. I liken it to if you fall asleep on a train here in New York, you’re probably going to end up maybe in the rail yard, worst case scenario, assuming a conductor doesn’t come by and wake you up, which, yes, they should be doing a sweep of the train; I agree with you, Laura. Somebody should before departing, and just making sure every… perhaps there are some kids who are hiding out in there that don’t want to go to school; they want to go back home or just go goof off somewhere.

Eric: Yeah! Where’s the trolley lady? She should be… isn’t she meticulous about this kind of thing?

Andrew: That’s another one of her duties. But I do think even though it was a short-lived moment for Harry, waiting for Tonks, I do wonder if this was a traumatic or a triggering event for him, because he was held prisoner, basically, in a cupboard under the stairs, a confined space, wasn’t really allowed to leave, with no one thinking or caring about him as a child, and now here he is again, trapped and thinking that no one was looking or caring for him. He feels that way. He said there was “no hint of a search being made,” and he had a “feeling of hopelessness spread through him.” It kind of reminds me of how he might have felt under the cupboard. So again, it was a short moment, but maybe it would have been more traumatic had he gone all the way back to Platform Nine and Three Quarters. So yeah, maybe it wouldn’t have been the worst deal on paper, but I think that would have been a really bad situation for Harry’s mental health if he’s trapped heading all the way back there.

Eric: I like that.

Andrew: That’s a long ride, too, it seems like.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Hours. I’m going to actually push back against what Micah has said about it not being dangerous, too, because if you think about how they’ve been escorting Harry every step of the way, the Ministry drivers… he needed an escort in Diagon Alley, which just turned out to be Hagrid, but it was going to be more Aurors. There’s now… Tonks is eyeing the train she’s been assigned; she and three other Aurors have been assigned to Hogsmeade. So they’re taking security very seriously, but if Harry were on the train just barreling down the English countryside from Scotland, heading south, that train is in open, wild land that is not protected. There’s no Aurors there. And so presumably, Harry would never be less safe than just barreling down the countryside in the Hogwarts Express.

Laura: Kind of a sitting duck, too, if he’s immobilized, right?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: But you can’t see him.

Eric: That’s true.

Micah: He’s not visible to the average eye.

Laura: Yeah, but if Draco…

Eric: Ohh.

Laura: I mean, we know Draco is already deep in with the Death Eaters at this point.

Eric: Touches his tat…

Laura: He could just touch his Dark Mark, reach out to people, and be like, “Yo, Harry Potter is on the Hogwarts Express all by himself. Go get him.”

Andrew: Moving through an unprotected area. Yeah, for hours.

Micah: In fairness, though, too, he was just as exposed on the way to Hogwarts. There weren’t any Aurors on the train that we know about.

Eric: There were teachers.

Micah: Slughorn?

Eric: Hundreds of students…

Andrew: Slughorn, students… on the way back to Platform Nine and Three Quarters I’m thinking of a Breaking Bad style heist. You know the train scene where they rob it of whatever that material was?

Laura: [gasps] Yes. Oh, God. Incredible.

Andrew: [laughs] The Death Eaters would stop the train, and then other Death Eaters would go in and extract Harry.

Micah: Well, despite all of my arguments, I do think that Harry should be priority number one here, and this is in no way trying to be disrespectful towards Tonks, but that train should have been swarming with Aurors when Harry did not come off of it.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: I think there should have been a full inquiry into what happened to Harry. Nobody really asks him why he’s late, and we can talk more about that as he makes his way up to the school. And Draco should have been punished for it. I know Harry was eavesdropping, but Draco attacked him. Broke his nose.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a tricky circumstance. The only people that he would talk to about it… he’s aware that people are eavesdropping, so he’s not going to mention it at the table. Snape doesn’t care, and he can’t tell Snape in particular, because Snape would be like, “Well, what were you doing listening to Draco Malfoy and sneaking into the cupboard?” He would give him more points taken away from Gryffindor than he already does, which is a shitty thing we’ll talk about later. But yeah, it’s just that Harry can’t talk about it. There’s nobody that he trusts. But I don’t know why Dumbledore isn’t down there. This is kind of a big deal; Harry Potter didn’t step off the train. That’s a big deal. Certainly, the train needs some kind of signal clearance or something to leave. I wonder who gave that clearance. They should lose their job.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah. It is a great call-out, because Harry is a key player, and we’ll talk about this a little bit later, but there are certain conversations that we know have happened at this point that we don’t find out about until Book 7, between Dumbledore and Snape, confirming the status of Harry’s role in all of this. And it is kind of shocking that, given the kind of tail that they’ve had on him in the past – thinking about Order of the Phoenix, for example – it is a little bit shocking that there’s not more attention to detail here, but I may just be catastrophizing. Anxiety will do that to you.

Andrew: Anxiety and a shorter chapter – so we need more material to discuss – will do that to you.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Exactly! Okay. Yeah, there we go.

Eric: We’re just trying to get more clips for social, everybody. “Everyone who works on Hogwarts Rail should be fired!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: So Tonks is still pretty subdued. The last time Harry saw her, of course, was with Mrs. Weasley at the Burrow where she was being consoled about her love issues with Remus. And she’s once again shown up, she’s not her usual vibrant self, but something that really sticks out is when she sends her Patronus to send a message up to the school that Harry is there, we see that her… well, I don’t think it’s called out explicitly in the book, but we know it to be a wolf, and that her Patronus, we find out later, actually changed after she fell in love with Remus. And according to all fandom wikis and HarryPotter.com, her original Patronus was a jackrabbit, which definitely feels a lot more characteristic of the Tonks that we know in the books than a wolf does. So as a reminder, Patronuses can change, and HarryPotter.com calls out that the things that can cause a Patronus to change are bereavement, falling in love, or profound shifts in a person’s character. And I’ve got to be honest, the falling in love examples that we get are bleak. I think the only two we get are Remus and Tonks, and Snape and Lily, because Snape’s Patronus is a doe, which is very much reminiscent of his feelings towards Lily. So it kind of, I don’t know, makes me wonder if it’s actually love that causes the Patronus to change, or is it the trauma that just happens to coincide with the love in these instances that makes it happen?

Eric: I think both of these could somewhat be considered bereavement, really.

Andrew: Agree.

Eric: Because to that aspect, there are a lot of things I don’t like about this moment and this fact that her Patronus has taken Lupin’s form. This romance, or would-be romance, is kind of out of the blue. It’s a bit ham-fisted. It’s never really properly, I think, delved into or set. But for Tonks, I guess this means… okay, so she caught feelings for Remus. Presumably, they were working together in the Order, even though Remus is often sent off alone with the werewolves. Somehow they’ve been interacting, she catches feelings for him, he has feelings for her – there’s a spark there, according to canon – but he is worried he’s older than her and that he’s no good for her, and so he rebuffs her and says, “No.” Okay. At this time, she’s so distraught; she just wants to be with him, nobody else. Not your typical kid, “Wotcher, Harry,” always “I’ll make the best out of this as possible.” She’s so miserable that her hair no longer can change to pink. She doesn’t do it. She just completely dresses down, goes by Molly’s for tea, is miserable, and her Patronus changes, which barely never happens. That’s how miserable she is over losing Lupin’s romantic interest? Or unrequited love? I don’t know. I just think that in the end, Snape has no business telling her that her new Patronus looks “weak,” because he is the other character we just talked about whose Patronus changed for love, and I don’t think people who live in glass houses should throw stones that large.

Laura: I think people with deep insecurities have a tendency to project those insecurities onto other people, and I think that’s what’s happening here.

Eric: That makes sense.

Laura: But yeah, totally. Snape is being an absolute butthead here.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Because he’s not dumb; I’m sure he can read between the lines and understand what’s going on here.

Andrew: It is fascinating to me that to show emotion for someone can imply weakness, in Snape’s mind. But then Snape, who still loves Lily – whose Patronus is a doe, the same as Lily’s – calls her love Patronus, let’s call it, weak? That’s kind of crazy to me! But the connection there is fascinating, that he would call somebody else’s Patronus weak when his Patronus is a doe because of his love for Lily. Wow. And who cares if you have a Patronus that looks weak, even? If it’s still a strong Patronus… unless he meant the projection was weak? But I don’t…

Eric: Well, maybe it’s the movie wolf. The movie version of Lupin looks pretty weak, if you ask me.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: It’s kind of just a wonky character design, so I completely understand where Snape is coming from in that moment. But no, it’s ridiculously hypocritical. But to love someone is to make yourself vulnerable. The Patronus, though, is a protector figure, it’s a protector character, so even if her Patronus changed to a wolf, her relationship with her Patronus should be that of, “This is my protector. This is my chosen…” So it shouldn’t, I don’t know, make her sad to see it, or nobody making fun of her Patronus should hurt her. I don’t know; I just find this whole moment to be large scale retconning or redaction or character assassination, of what was a very cool Hufflepuff character built up in the previous book, reduced to rubble of a person for reasons not properly explained ever and barely hinted at throughout this book. It’s a shame.

Micah: Just to go off the point of maybe the projection itself being weak, it’s pretty… I think it’s sensible to argue that Tonks maybe finds it very difficult in this moment to try and cast a Patronus. She’s trying to think of something that is happy, and her state of mind is not one of happiness.

Laura: No, not at all. It definitely…

Micah: I’m not trying to give Snape an out here, but you can read it on both levels.

Laura: Oh yeah, for sure. I think both can be true. It also just makes me wonder more about the details of the goings-on between Remus and Tonks at this point, because the… I mean, of course everyone’s different, but reading into this, this doesn’t read just as unrequited love; it reads as like there’s maybe been some confusion on her part, and maybe something got started and then he pulled away from her. I guess to me, that feels like a more likely scenario resulting in this particular outcome, but that’s for the fanfiction writers to help us figure out.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, then you mix in the fact that we’re in a war now, and that’s going to be stressful on a relationship too, especially if you’re both working in the Order of the Phoenix. There’s no time for romance! You dedicate all your time to Dumbledore and what he wants, what he needs.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Tonks, go to Hogsmeade.” [imitating Tonks] “Oh, fine, but I don’t get to see my boo as much.”

Laura: Well, speaking of Patronuses, I just wanted to bring up quickly, apparently you can still take the Patronus quiz on HarryPotter.com. I didn’t know this.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: So just quickly, I wanted to point out you do have to make a new account. If you go into your original account, you’ll still have your original Patronus. So I made a new account and took the Patronus quiz…

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: … and my Patronus did change since I took this quiz back in… Jesus… oh, sorry, cut that out.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s fine.

Eric: “Since Jesus!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: The Common Era.

Laura: That’s a long time ago! But since, whatever, 10 plus, 15 years ago when I took this?

Andrew: 10 BC, Laura did her Patronus test.

Laura: [laughs] My Patronus originally was an Irish wolfhound, but today, it’s a Great Dane. Still a dog, which I feel like fits, but it was interesting to me that they’re very specific about different breeds of dog. I didn’t know how many they had on there. Anyone else get a different Patronus now?

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I also had a change in Patronus. I had a sparrowhawk, which is a small bird, and when I retook it today, I got an Abraxan winged horse.

Laura: Oh!

Micah: These are the horses that pull the carriages of Beauxbatons.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: That’s a big change.

Eric: That’s a big horse!

Micah: Still a flying creature, but yeah, my Pokémon evolved.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It sure did. That’s definitely a glow-up. Yeah, and I actually felt a pretty big attachment to my original Patronus, which was a stoat; it’s a type of weasel found only in Britain, last seen in the Harry Potter books when Hagrid gives the children stoat sandwiches. [laughs] I still remember tweeting J.K. Rowling ages ago, saying, “If I get a stoat sandwich in real life, can I consume my Patronus to gain its power?” And I did not get a reply, but I thought it was funny. Today I took it and the quiz said that my Patronus was a basset hound.

Laura: Oh, that’s so sweet. I love basset hounds.

Eric: It’s adorable. So I think I’m just getting… I was cute a few years ago, and now I’m just a sweetheart.

Andrew: So I didn’t retake it, but my Patronus is the white mare, which is a triumphant steed.

Eric: Love it.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ll take it. I would have preferred a dog or an otter or something, something really cute, but a horse, sure.

Laura: MuggleCast stallion over here, Andrew Sims.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I’m a horse.

Andrew: My horse’s name is Bubba.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Okay, so once Tonks is out of the picture – because Snape, of course, is the staff member who came down to escort Harry back up to the school, and he spent a couple of minutes bullying Tonks – and once she’s out of the picture, he’s like, “Well, gotta bully the only other person here. So your turn, Harry. You’re up.” And he immediately begins accusing Harry of being late getting off the train simply because he thinks Harry wants to make some kind of grand entrance for attention. He says something like, “What, you couldn’t find a flying car this time?” It’s just…

Micah: Yeah. Nice.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Connecting the threads back to Chamber of Secrets.

Laura: Right. And it’s, again, just continued… Snape is all about projection. All of his fears and all of his insecurities, and every negative thing he has to say about another person, I am convinced it is rooted in his own self-loathing. And a lot of this, I think, is just a projection of his beef with James, because it’s probably something James would have done based on the teenage version of him that we knew.

Micah: I think, though, you have to give Harry a lot of credit for not taking the bait here. He is really stewing, and you wouldn’t blame him for lashing back out at Snape, but he actually keeps himself fairly well-contained. And just shame on Snape for not asking what happened to Harry, because his face is literally covered in blood, and you’d think just a normal human reaction – forget about the fact that he’s a professor, that he’s a Head of House, that he’s in the Order – no, there’s no bit of empathy here.

Eric: Well, and this is the second big Snape-focused chapter of this book. “Spinner’s End” showed us what an amazing, double agent, competent, plays both sides, has an answer for every inquiry, just utterly amazing character Snape is, and this chapter shows what a petty, childish, unfair, unsympathetic jerk he is, and it’s wild that that’s the same character.

Micah: The title reflects that, right? He has this arrogance throughout the entire chapter, and we learn why at the very end, but it’s just like he’s walking around with this… I’m not going to say it, because… this air of arrogance. I’ll just leave it there.

Andrew: Thank you for not saying Jesus again. We appreciate that.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That would have been too much for one episode.

Micah: No, I was going to say… you could cut this out, but it’s like he’s got a DADA [censored]-on basically the whole time, and he’s just…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, that wasn’t what I was thinking you were going to say. Okay.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’ll censor it.

Laura: I do want to call out, actually, I think relevant to this conversation, Justin in our Discord is reminding us that Snape is in an Unbreakable Vow to help Draco, so there’s not much he can do here, right?

Eric: Yeah, he can’t expel Draco. He can’t punish Draco.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Even if he heard what had happened or who attacked Harry, there’s not a lot that can be done. Even less than usual. Even less than what he would be inclined to do.

Andrew: He could express empathy still, though, like Micah suggested. Or just say, “I’ll look into this,” and then he doesn’t follow up, but at least he’s kind of acting like he’s caring. I also wonder if it’s possible that Snape was taunting Harry so much because he really did want to know what happened, why Harry was late, so he tried to make him crack under the pressure of all the bullying. But Harry does say he would rather have been immobilized all the way back to London than tell Snape why he was late, so he did win… Harry was victorious in that way.

Eric: Honestly, the rate the train was going to get off the platform, he would have been back in London already and wouldn’t have had to deal with Snape at all.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: So I get it. But yeah, no, I think, too, with this whole situation, it’s crazy because the book even says Harry is surprised that Snape can’t react to the waves of hate, the rays of hate that are radiating out of Harry, and I’m just like, “Yeah, that’s these two guys’ relationship to one another now.” They are destined not to like each other, but this is their book, remember? This is Snape’s book in particular. It’s going to continue to be a really fascinating interaction, I think. Anytime that they interact and anytime we see Snape doing something is going to be a character study in who he is as a character. I’m excited to pull back more layers of things that we didn’t really notice before.

Micah: And how convenient that the chapter that follows “Snape Victorious” is “The Half-Blood Prince.”

Eric: Titular.

Laura: Yeah, stuff you didn’t pick up on the first time you were reading this book.

Micah: No. But I did want to just connect another thread I was thinking of when we were talking about Snape’s arrogance: It’s very similar to the arrogance we see from another Defense Against the Dark Arts professor in Chamber of Secrets.

Laura: Ah, yeah. I love that connection, because whereas Lockhart was objectively not qualified to be teaching that, I think it’s safe to say that Snape, at least in terms of his credentials on paper, would be qualified to teach this subject.

Micah: Totally.

Laura: What do you think?

Micah: I agree, yeah. I think Snape is probably most equipped to teach this position than even Potions, as good as he is at that, and we learn a lot about that in this book. But Laura, you mentioned earlier the grand entrance comment, and I know we talked a little bit about that tieback to Chamber of Secrets, but it was also Snape who received Harry and Ron following their incident in Chamber of Secrets with the Whomping Willow. In both of those instances, Harry misses the Sorting. So he misses it in Chamber of Secrets, and he misses it here in Half-Blood Prince.

Andrew: Which as a reader is a bummer every time that happens in this series.

Micah: It is.

Andrew: You want to hear the song, you want to hear and see students being Sorted…

Micah: I was looking back, too, to see if there was any correlation in the number of points that were taken, but in Chamber, Ron is actually smart enough to say to McGonagall, “Well, you shouldn’t take any points, because the term technically hadn’t started yet when we stole the car.”

Eric: Oh, man!

Micah: But I don’t think Harry was able to get out of the situation and say, “Well, technically, when I was attacked on the train, the term hadn’t started yet.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, don’t think that would fly.

Eric: I think the point-taking is where Snape goes too far. He does it because he can, but there’s many reasons that shouldn’t happen, especially because his students are as guilty or had a part in it too.

Laura: Yeah, but I think he also probably knows Harry’s got bigger fish to fry, too, and so he’s taking advantage of that, right? Harry has bigger priorities than getting Draco in trouble for assaulting him on the train, and Snape knows that, so he’s taking the moment to take a dig at Harry, kind of in like a, “Haha, you can’t do anything about this.”

Eric: Well, the whole reason Snape is here is because he intercepted the Patronus. That was supposed to go to Hagrid! Hagrid should have been down here to greet Harry, and Snape was, “Nope, I got this,” and runs with it, and then goes and makes Harry miserable.

Laura: You all mentioned how Harry missed the Sorting Hat; he also basically missed dinner, because he sits down and he’s about to serve himself some dinner, and the dinner disappears and the desserts appear.

Andrew: Womp-womp.

Laura: I know, it’s such a bummer. But once the feast is cleared, Dumbledore gives his customary start of the term speech, and this is where he drops the bomb that new Professor Slughorn is going to be teaching Potions, and Snape is finally getting a shot at Defense Against the Dark Arts. It’s not only shocking, but I have to think it has to feel like somewhat of a betrayal for Harry, no?

Eric: Yeah, it’s not as if Dumbledore ever promised not to appoint Snape Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, [laughs] like personally promised Harry, but Harry is racking his brain to figure out if Dumbledore lied to him, and then he can’t remember him saying that Slughorn was ever for Potions. It does feel like a betrayal. And I think, too, what Harry is most worried about is what Snape will do with all this power. This is the job that Snape has always wanted, and it can mean nothing good. Harry feels just like with Draco…

Micah: And this is the course that Harry loves the most.

Eric: Yeah, that’s true too.

Laura: And Dumbledore knows that! He knows this is Harry’s favorite class, so… [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, his precious corner of Hogwarts is being violated.

Micah: Wasn’t there a mention, though…? It was an indirect mention by Dumbledore – maybe it was before Harry left the shed to go into the Burrow – about his OWL results and Potions.

Eric: Yeah, “Don’t count your owls before they arrive,” or something like that.

Andrew: Hmm.

Laura: Yeah. Well, because he knows that Slughorn doesn’t require an Outstanding OWL in order to take his NEWT level courses.

Micah: Yeah, but we didn’t know that then.

Laura: Right. It’s all coming together.

Eric: So Dumbledore is toying with Harry about that, pretty much.

Laura: Oh, the chess master at work once again.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s always sad when he turns his powers for bad against Harry.

Andrew: I’m so glad Rachel, who’s listening live on our Patreon right now, just said, “Harry yelling out ‘No’ out loud is so funny.” I had the same reaction, too, and while reading, it reminded me of something, but I couldn’t place it. But then a half hour ago, I finally recognized where my mind is putting that moment in pop culture.

[Audio clip plays]

Michael Scott: No, God! No, God, please, no. No! Noooo! Noooooo!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That’s Michael Scott on The Office learning that Toby was coming back, a very kind of similar situation.

Laura: Right. Oh, that’s so funny. [laughs]

Andrew: I wanted us to do impressions of Harry, but no, this is way better. Michael Scott going, “No!”

Laura: It’s perfect.

Eric: That’s so good.

Laura: [laughs] Somebody superimpose Dan Radcliffe’s face over Michael Scott’s face for that.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But something else I wanted to call out here as we get close to wrapping up this chapter: Harry thinks about the curse, and he actually speaks some of this into existence out loud, where he’s like, “Well, hopefully he dies,” or something like that. He’s like, “Hoping for a death.”

Eric: Yeah!

Laura: And everyone seems to be pretty aware that Snape is only going to be able to serve in this position for a year because of the curse, but this is ultimately the setup to position Snape as the Headmaster in Book 7 so that he can protect the school.

Andrew: I wonder what I was thinking reading this for the first time, because yes, history does tell us that this jinx is real and Snape will be out of that position, but did I believe it? It almost seemed too good to be true. It seemed too obvious.

Laura: Yeah, I agree. And I think we have had other examples over the course of the series where we had something kind of dangled in front of us like that, where it felt too good to be true. Maybe… it could even just be looking at the curse when we looked at someone like Umbridge, and thinking, “Is it too good to be true that we’re actually going to be rid of her in a book?”

Eric: Right.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: Or Harry going to live with Sirius. That was dangled very briefly.

Laura: [sighs] Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: But here in this moment, we’re actually reminded that Snape will be out by the end of the year. I don’t think… I can’t remember, but at the start of Order of the Phoenix, were they thinking about that? Were they thinking about this curse?

Eric: No, I think they were hung up on how crazy it was that the Ministry was interfering at Hogwarts.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: What I find satisfying…

Micah: But it had to…

Eric: Oh, yeah?

Micah: No, going off of what you were saying, Andrew, I think that it had to have raised so many questions for us as readers the first time around, because we’re sitting here saying to ourselves, “Okay, well, then where does that take us at the end of this book, right? What does that mean for Book 7? Where’s Snape going? Is he surviving?” But unfortunately for Harry, his death wish results in losing the Headmaster instead of the Potions Master.

Eric: Shame.

Laura: Yeah, you’re right. There is a death there, and there is a curse that has an expiration date on it for Dumbledore, right? It’s just not the one Harry is thinking of.

Andrew: Beggars can’t be choosers.


Odds & Ends


Laura: All right, so we are back, and we’re going to get into a couple of odds and ends here. I just wanted to call out how Nearly Headless Nick is definitely a social climber. There’s that whole exchange at the table where he’s like, “Oh, yes, all the ghosts have been coming to me and asking me what I know about this situation with Harry Potter, and I told them that Harry Potter has my strictest confidence at all points, and I would never convey anything.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And it’s like, “Bro, okay. He came and had one conversation with you – granted, not that long ago – but y’all are not close.” And I think we have one other parallel here; not sure who put this one in.

Eric: Oh, yeah, that was something I put in. So the chapter starts… we pointed this out during our last discussion; it bears repeating. Harry being immobilized under the cloak at the start of this chapter may be looking forward to the end of this book, “The Lightning-Struck Tower,” when Harry is once again immobilized under his Invisibility Cloak, this time by Dumbledore.

Andrew: Good catch, good catch.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: All right, we are going to get into our MVP of the Week, and this week, we’re looking at Harry and Dumbledore and their various war wounds that we see in this chapter, Harry with his broken nose and Dumbledore with his decrepit hand. So I’m asking who wore their injury better, Harry or Dumbledore?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to say Dumbledore. I kind of like the hand as an accessory. It’s kind of cool.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Harry is just attacked in the face, bleeding out of his face. That’s not… he just looks tired, exhausted.

Micah: He’s totally unaware of it, too. I’ll second you, Andrew, with Dumbledore; I think there’s also some symbolism to the fact that Dumbledore is standing up in front of the school with one of his hands blackened, talking about what’s to come.

Andrew: “Dark times lie ahead.”

Micah: But he owns it. Like I said, this whole book so far he’s been all about business, and he just kind of laughs in the face of danger, too. He’s like, “Hah, don’t worry about that. It’s just a little thing.”

Andrew: But it’s admirable. I think it’s admirable.

Micah: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I was also going to say Dumbledore, purely because of how he very quietly picks up on the fact that all of these kids are hyper-focused on what the heck is wrong with his hand, and his response to that is to continue speaking, be undeterred, and he just gives a little shake of his arm, a little shake of his wrist, to shake his robes down his sleeve, down over the hand and keep it moving. I appreciate that.

Eric: I think that’s all very off-putting, and I’m going to give my MVP to Harry. I think that Harry’s injury makes him look cool or misunderstood, and Dumbledore’s just looks, besides gross, just looks like his ink pot exploded.


Lynx Line


Laura: All right, and now we are going to get into our Lynx Line. MuggleCast listeners who are Slug Club members over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, which is: If Snape had never met Lily, what form do you think his Patronus would have taken?

Eric: Augh, love this question.

Andrew: We received so many more fun and creative answers. I just love our audience. Rachel said, “A chameleon. Those things do what they need to do to blend in and survive.”

Eric: So true. Karen says, “A bottle of Sleekeazy’s Hair Potion! Keep that shine!”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Isn’t that where James made all his money?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It’s the Potters, yeah.

Micah: So he’s in love with James? Oh, anyway. [laughs] Julie says, “It’s obvious – a potions bottle!”

Laura: Jennifer says, “I think if he had never met Lily, he would have went full on Death Eater, and would not have been able to perform a Patronus at all.”

Andrew: Zachary said, “A yearling buck due to his deep obsession with James and Lily. Similar to the stag, but not quite developed enough.”

Eric: Betty says, “I’m going to say snake. Having a snake Patronus doesn’t mean he’s a Dark wizard; it could just signify his identity rooted more deeply in Slytherin, and he was obsessed with Slytherin before meeting Lily.”

Andrew: Mev said, “A Tasmanian devil.”

Micah: Jessie says, “Octopus – each arm represents all the different secrets/personas/facets that Snape has had to juggle over the years. They’re fiercely loyal and intelligent, but they’re also solitary. Plus, they’re just generally misunderstood, and I get a kick out of Snape thinking of the Giant Squid each time and being frustrated that this is his best representation, showing that he doesn’t even truly understand himself underneath it all.”

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Ooh, I love that. That’s really, really well thought out. Forty says, “A pair of old tighty whities.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, apparently he does need some new ones, according to James, so…

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Michael not Scott said, “Some unrecognizable creature in a bottle trying to get out. Instead of helping the user, it is used against them.”

Eric: Jared has a good one: “A raven. It fits Snape’s lonely and dreary vibe, like the poem ‘The Raven’ by Edgar Allen Poe.”

Micah: Michael, also not Scott, says, “My first thought was a bat, and in doing some research, there’s a ‘Spectral bat’ that is additionally the only member of the genus ‘Vampyrum,’ so I’m pretty satisfied with that.”

Andrew: Nice.

Laura: And Matthew rounds it out for us by saying, “Donkey, because he’s such an ass.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Zing!

Laura: Love it.

Andrew: The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We love our live audience, but we know people can’t tune in every week because of timezones and work and busyness and all that, so this is a way to have your voice on the show. We ask a new question every week. Become a member of our community today by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and receiving this and many more benefits, like bonus MC. And don’t forget, we have a special discount right now, 20% off an annual subscription. Just go to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and you’ll see a banner for the deal at the top of the page. If you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via social media or Spotify, whatever is convenient for you. And no new episode next week because of the Thanksgiving holiday, but two weeks from now, Chapter by Chapter – Oprah’s favorite – continues with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 9, “The Half-Blood Prince.” A chapter named this right after “Snape Victorious”? Easter egg much? Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: Name the author of the wildly successful book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. Highly acclaimed, it was initially published in 1936. The correct answer to that question is Dale Carnegie! And 30% of people with the correct answer say they did not look it up, so they probably have a copy of that book on their bookshelves. Very exciting. This week’s winners were Cara; Cormac McLaggen Behind; Gwen Weasley; Hey Glo-glo; Tempeh Tommy; The Hair… or The Heir of Hufflepuff. I know that word. Tonks Rhinoplasty – best username ever – and our friend, Tofu Tom. Thanks to all who submitted, and here is next week’s Quizzitch question. It’s a multiple choice question for us for two weeks from now. In this chapter, Dumbledore exposes his injured right hand to the whole school. Roughly what percentage of people in the world are right-handed? Is it A) 55%, B) 65%, C) 75%, or D) 90%? So if you, like Dumbledore, are right-handed, you may be able to guess at this answer. Submit it to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, for the little Quizzitch form, or if you’re on our website checking out transcripts or must listens or anything else, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.

Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Happy Thanksgiving! Pip-pip!

Laura: Happy Thanksgiving.

Eric: Pip-pip!

Transcript #729

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #729, Agent Harry (HBP Chapter 7, The Slug Club)


Cold Open


Andrew: The premise is so silly, because it’s like, “Guys, Voldemort is a terrible person, but he would never ask a 16-year-old to become a Death Eater.” What? This guy murders people! He tried to murder a child!


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: And I’m Micah.

Andrew: Laura is gone this week, but she’ll be back next week, and we are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app and you’ll never miss a week with your Harry Potter friends. And this week, don’t even bother trying to convince your best friends that your arch nemesis is up to no good. Our highly-acclaimed Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 7 of Half-Blood Prince, “The Slug Club.” And before we continue, if you love the show and want to help keep this show tasting better than a mouthful of cold pheasant, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By joining, you’ll receive two bonus episodes of the show every month, plus ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, a personal video “Thank you” message from one of the four MuggleCasters, a gift delivered by owl each year, and much more. We couldn’t do it without you, so thank you so much. And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, or you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear. And like I said, this week we’re discussing “The Slug Club” chapter of Half-Blood Prince, and we have a Slug Club alumni here from our Slug Club on Patreon. Welcome back to the show, Nicole!

Nicole: Thank you! I’m so excited to be here.

Andrew: You and I actually ran into each other at Epic Universe last week. Coincidentally, you were going to be in the park the same day that I was, so a very happy coincidence. And I’m going to be talking about the new Ministry of Magic land at Epic Universe this week, so I thought, “Well, let’s have you on to help me talk about it!” So we’re thrilled to have you back. You were actually last on the show in October 2018; this is old hat for you.

Nicole: Right.

[Andrew and Nicole laugh]

Eric: Yeah, hopefully you still remember how to do this from seven years ago.

[Andrew laughs]

Nicole: I might. I will try. [laughs]

Micah: We don’t even remember how to do it and we did it last week, so don’t worry.

Eric: [laughs] Honestly, we have a document we follow every week. But Nicole, I also wanted to say that you’ve been a patron of ours since day one, and so we know that you’re… we’re very grateful to you for your support of the show throughout all of these years, and it’s very exciting to get to talk to you again on here.

Nicole: Thank you.


Wizarding World Epic Universe


Andrew: We’re going to start today’s episode by talking about the new Harry Potter Wizarding World land at Epic Universe. It opened earlier this year, and Universal’s Epic Universe features four themed lands. They have Dark Universe, which is a monsters-themed land; they have Super Nintendo World, which I was also very excited to see; they have Isle of Berk, which is a How to Train Your Dragon-themed land; and then, of course, the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, Ministry of Magic. This land is the most beautiful Wizarding World land of the three. Even though the land is called Ministry of Magic, the land is primarily set in 1920s Paris; it’s just the ride itself that is Ministry of Magic-themed. Micah, Eric, when I stepped into this land, I was not expecting this; my jaw was on the floor. I was blown away. Whereas Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley… with all due respect to the England Wizarding World lands, they have a rugged feel; they have a worn-down feel. The Ministry of Magic land set in France, beautiful from top to bottom. I was just in awe!

Eric: What’s the main view, then? Because there’s a very iconic view when you’re in Hogsmeade; it’s the shops, and in the background you see Hogwarts. When it’s Diagon Alley, you go around the brick and you see Gringotts with the dragon. What’s the view of Ministry of Magic in Paris?

Andrew: Paris!

Eric: Are there gardens? Is it like Versailles? What is it?

Andrew: Just… it’s Wizarding World Paris, so there’s just all this art everywhere. It’s so clean. It feels modern, even though it’s 1920s Paris. In the distance, you do also see – when you first walk in – you see a circus tent where a show is that Nicole will speak to later. Nicole, were you equally surprised by how beautiful this land was?

Nicole: Yeah, especially… you don’t get the same nostalgic feeling that you do walking into Diagon Alley or Hogsmeade, but it still is beautiful. And I was surprised how much I enjoyed it as well, with it not being probably our favorite movie, or that sentimental like the other lands. It almost feels like I wish they had waited longer for the other ones, you know? It’s almost like it’s kind of… I don’t want to say it’s wasted on Fantastic Beasts, but to have all of that effort and money put into this… it is beautiful. It’s like, “Oh, if they had put that much into the other parks, that would have been nice to have that Harry Potter feel.” But I mean, it is still beautiful.

Andrew: Yeah. So I got food right away; I went to Cafe L’air de la Sirène. Again, left my jaw on the floor. It was just beautiful in there. I got the egg quiche, which was very good. They also had a turkey sandwich, which I was very tempted to try, but I didn’t. And just the food is served on this really nice plate. You use real silverware, which was also the case in the How to Train Your Dragon land, Isle of Berk. Epic Universe just feels like a step above every other theme park I’ve been to, honestly, and I had spent four days at Disney World, and I was like, “Disney World has some catching up to do. This is just way better.” [laughs] Jumping to the Battle of the Ministry ride… so this is a dark ride. It’s the big ride at the land. You’re witnessing the trial of Dolores Umbridge, but she does break free and causes chaos, and that’s, of course, the crux of the ride.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: I would say it’s got the best animatronics yet that I’ve seen across the Wizarding World lands. They’re very fluid. You see Death Eater animatronics, Umbridge, Harry and Ron…

Eric: So wait, animatronic, but people animatronic? Is this like Pirates of the Caribbean?

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Eric: Okay, interesting.

Andrew: But much more fluid than some of the stuff I’ve seen at Disney.

Micah: Did Imelda Staunton actually film parts for this ride?

Andrew: Yes, that is what we have heard.

Micah: That’s cool.

Andrew: The trio does appear, too, but I think you could tell they were more CGI; they recreated them. But they looked good, and they sounded good too. We’ve talked on the show about how Hermione on the Hogwarts Express train doesn’t sound like Hermione. This time, maybe because technology has gotten better, the trio really sounded like themselves.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Were you going to say something, Nicole?

Nicole: I was just going to say the Death Eaters in particular, because they had a mask on… Umbridge and Harry and Ron, because you could see their faces, if you look at them, like, “Okay, those aren’t real people.” But the Death Eaters, it looked like they put a real actor in the ride, because you couldn’t see their face. That’s how fluid and good they looked. You could really believe that was a real person in there.

Andrew: Yeah, definitely. There’s also… a lot of the rides, like the other two rides at the other Wizarding World lands, rely a lot on screens, but the screens in this ride… I don’t know if they were… we’ve all heard about 4K TVs. These were, like, 8K screens, it seemed to me.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: The resolution was insane, and it just offered a very realistic experience, like what you were witnessing was truly right in front of you. So I was very impressed by that as well.

Eric: Well, that’s something that the technology has come so far, even since Battle of Hogwarts ride, or sorry, the original Hogsmeade ride that was in the castle. Because I remember… I think, Andrew, we went to Avatar land together ten years ago, or a few years later.

Andrew: I think so, yeah.

Eric: And that was the only time I rode the Avatar ride, where you’re riding the flying creatures and their screens are kind of a curved screen above and below you, and I thought that was the next evolution step up. The wind is blowing; it’s the most amazing thing I had ever seen. Couple years later, Gringotts comes out. A couple years later, we got this. That is something that is always improving. I’m very excited.

Andrew: Definitely. And no 3-D, thank goodness.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: I’m not a fan of 3-D rides. So Nicole, where would you rank Battle of the Ministry, the ride, compared to the other Harry Potter rides?

Nicole: I would say it’s number two. You can’t top Hagrid’s; I think that is the best ride in Orlando. Not even just Universal; like, across all the theme parks.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Wow.

Nicole: But I feel like this is a solid second. I mean, I really lucked out, too, because I got front and center on this ride. And the animatronics, I think, are just insane. So even though it’s not as thrilling or as advanced as Hagrid’s is, I think that really, really did it for me. And it’s not as nauseating, like Forbidden Journey.

Andrew: Agreed. Forbidden Journey really throws you around, whereas this one… you’re kind of still sitting in the same type of position you are for Forbidden Journey, but this one, yeah, it just doesn’t bring you backwards and stuff like that. The ride vehicle looks like the Tower of Terror ride vehicle, but it doesn’t do the dropping up and down like Tower of Terror would.

Eric: Yeah, I think they learned their lesson. Now, Nicole, just as a sidebar, when you ride the Hagrid ride at Orlando, do you choose the sidecar or the motorbike?

Nicole: Oh, I choose the sidecar now, because I did the motorbike the first time, and that was too much for me.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Nicole: I’m kind of a baby.

Eric: Understood, understood.

Micah: See, the only time I’ve ridden Hagrid’s was with Eric, who was nice enough to gift me the motorbike. But now I’m having second thoughts based on what Nicole just said.

Andrew: Oh.

Micah: I feel like I need to try the sidecar.

Nicole: No, you have to try the motorbike. You have to try. But being exposed, it feels a lot more intense than it does in the sidecar.

Micah: Ahh. Well, yeah, and I can probably drop the photo in the Discord, but you can see me literally… I’m hanging on for dear life.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. So I agree, Nicole. I don’t know Orlando theme parks good enough to say that Hagrid’s Motorbike… [takes a deep breath] Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure is the best ride in Orlando, but definitely amongst the Wizarding World lands, definitely number one for me. So I would put Battle of the Ministry at number two or three. I really like the Diagon Alley ride, the one set in Gringotts, because there is a bit of a coaster element to that one. But this one, I think you nailed it. Forbidden Journey makes me too nauseous, whereas this one did not.

Eric: So how about the actual walking through of the Ministry atrium? Is that part of the queue for the ride?

Andrew: So cool, yes.

Eric: Is that big? Is it a long walk?

Andrew: It’s stunning. The Ministry of Magic atrium is very impressive. They have this little Floo Powder effect; you go through a fireplace and green smoke shoots up, and then you get into the Ministry of Magic. And that was a jaw-on-the-floor moment, for sure. What I also really appreciated is that when you exit the ride, you go back through the atrium. Normally, when you’re going through these queues, you don’t revisit the cool spots.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But with this, you did, and it was a perfect opportunity… I parked myself right by the Fountain of Magical Brethren and I posed for a picture there after the ride. So I thought that was a really nice, thoughtful touch.

Eric: That’s cool.

Andrew: Also, Micah promised me a butterbeer. Thank you for the butterbeer, Micah.

Micah: Oh, you’re welcome.

Andrew: I got a nice French butterbeer mug. I also went to another bar in the Ministry of Magic land, and it came with a special cup. It came in a special glass; I didn’t have to upgrade or anything, and I took it home as a souvenir. What was the name of that bar? Bar Moonshine, I went to, and it came in almost a souvenir mug.

Eric: Those aren’t French words! [laughs]

Andrew: The other bar there is Le Goblet Noir. That’s also a place where you can grab some food. Bar Moonshine was like an American-themed bar, sports bar, because they had all these pennants for American states, but set in the 1920s, so that was interesting.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: One thing at the new Wizarding World land that I didn’t get to experience because the timing wasn’t working out for me was Le Cirque Arcanus, and this is a circus show within the new land. Nicole, you did go and check it out. How was it?

Nicole: Yes, it was incredible. I feel like if I didn’t make it on the ride for whatever reason, but I got to experience this, I would have still had a pretty good day.

Andrew: Wow.

Nicole: It was that good. Like the ride, the animatronics are incredible. And I am someone who I watched so many videos, ride points of view of Epic Universe, but I was completely unspoiled on this, and that was so worth it. So if you’re planning a trip in the next year – or ever, maybe – I would not look it up, because I really appreciated it, especially not knowing what was going to happen other than that we were going to see some beasts.

Andrew: That’s really cool. I did end up peeking at it on YouTube because I wanted to talk about it on the show, but I’m glad you actually saw it. There’s real circus acts happening within this! [laughs]

Nicole: Yeah!

Andrew: I’m impressed. So really cool, yeah, next time I definitely want to witness this myself.

Nicole: Yes, and you do have to get in line pretty early too. We got in line maybe 30 minutes before the show. You do have to set aside a good amount of time for it.

Andrew: That was the problem for me, and I spent a half hour waiting for food. I was trying to knock out as much as possible in one day. [laughs] But I’m glad you got to see it. And I will say, there’s one… let’s call it maybe an unexpected cameo; I was not expecting it myself until I saw it in the YouTube video, so I think people will be very pleasantly surprised by the show. Even though I was really impressed by Epic Universe and this new Wizarding World land, I have to say that nearly every ride I went on at Epic Universe that day had some sort of issue, and I think they still need some time to work out the kinks with the rides. So my suggestion for people would be to wait probably another year, unless you already have tickets to the park, and maybe in that case, you might want to upgrade to get the express passes, which is their equivalent of the fast passes, because it is just not… they’re still working out a lot of issues. But again, the park is so beautiful. They’re ahead of Disney World, and I can’t wait to go back. There’s more I need to explore.

Eric: What’s your take size-wise? Because we’ve all walked around both of the other Orlando Harry Potter parks. How big is this comparatively, would you say?

Andrew: I’d say it’s similar to the other two Wizarding World lands, yeah. I’m not a huge theme park nerd, but my understanding is that Epic Universe actually has fewer rides than the other parks at Universal, so they need to also add some more rides so they can handle more people within Epic Universe.

Eric: Oh, I see. Yeah, they started counting theme parks by attractions, which can include live performances and all sorts of stuff, so that’s something that we’ve been kind of loosely tracking over the last 15 years, is like, “Oh, they opened up a whole new land and it’s got one ride!” And it’s like, “But five attractions!” It’s like, “Mm, okay. Light show on the castle?”

Andrew: Right. And speaking of issues, it took a really long time to get my quiche in the morning, which sucked because I’m trying to get moving, going to different rides and stuff. We had to wait a good half hour. My brother and his girlfriend ordered some food, too, and that took… it was way too long for something that you sit down at the table of your choice, you mobile order, and then you have to wait a half hour with no updates? That was not good.

Nicole: I did have one other Epic Universe tip from a local, because this is not in the app, and Universal doesn’t advertise it anywhere. This isn’t in Harry Potter; it’s in Celestial Park in The Plastered Owl. It’s the bar that’s in The Oak & Star Tavern restaurant, and they have a live music, dueling guitar type of show where they’ll sing regular songs, too, but they do some improv and will kind of make songs up and take suggestions from the audience, so you could kind of curate a Harry Potter type of show if you’re in the audience and making those suggestions.

Andrew: Oh, very cool.

Nicole: So I thought that…

Eric: That’s awesome.

Andrew: I love the name “The Plastered Owl.” That’s actually what I call Micah most nights of the week.

[Andrew and Nicole laugh]

Eric: It’s true.

Andrew: I also went to the tiki bar near Celestial Park in Epic Universe. That was a great time too. Very delicious drinks. And again, the drinks are served in these unique… they’re plastic, but they’re tiki glasses! For no extra charge. I thought that was so cool. All right, so that is our review for now of Epic Universe and the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, Ministry of Magic. Again, really impressive. They raised the bar for the Harry Potter lands, and Universal is just raising the bar with theme parks in general. I was very, very impressed.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 7, “The Slug Club.”

Eric: Yes, and our Pensieve segment takes us back to the last time we talked about Chapter 7, on MuggleCast 387, titled “Evil Pickett,” for October 1, 2018. This clip references another exclusive club.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 387.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Eric: … an invitation to lunch, and the invitation comes from an H.E.F. Slughorn, which is weird. I don’t think we ever find out what Slughorn’s full name is.

Micah: That’s a good question, but I just thought about, well, maybe he’s like the wizarding world’s version of the Hef. Of Hugh Hefner, right? He throws these extravagant parties, he dresses up in these extravagant clothes, and everybody knows who Hugh Hefner is, right?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Playboy.

Eric: Well, that imagery of him being in a robe, like a silk robe, kind of fits me for…

Micah: Smoking a cigar?

Eric: Yeah, picturing Slughorn. Absolutely.

Micah: I doubt that there’s any correlation whatsoever, [laughs] but it’s just funny that his initials are H.E.F.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Eric: So interesting connection there, and we did find out eventually through one of the released books from Pottermore Presents Number 2 – it’s not how it sounds; it’s just the second of the Pottermore presents booklet – that Slughorn’s full name is Horace Eugene Flaccus Slughorn.

Micah: Flaccus actually means floppy-eared.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Like a bunny.

Micah: Like a bunny, yeah.

Andrew: Or an elephant.

Micah: Yeah, elephant’s probably more appropriate for Slughorn. He’s not really the bunny type.

Andrew: No.

Eric: But Playboy bunny.

Micah: Oh, true.

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: Is what we were talking about. We were just talking about Playboy.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, so let’s jump into Chapter 7, “The Slug Club.” How appropriate that it’s also Chapter 7.

Andrew: Very lucky to be invited to join the Slug Club.

Micah: Very lucky. So this chapter begins with poor Harry trying his best to convince his friends that something is up with Draco. There’s something about Draco. Nobody wants to listen to what Harry has to say, and instead of being excited about going back to Hogwarts, Harry is laser focused on Draco Malfoy. And I wanted to ask, do we think that Ron and Hermione specifically not believing him – despite some pretty reliable evidence – does this all stem from what happened at the end of Order of the Phoenix, where he was so convinced that Voldemort had taken Sirius and he leads his friends on this wild goose chase that likely could have gotten all of them killed?

Eric: I don’t know. They all saw the same thing! That’s what’s wild to me, is that they all were there, listening to Malfoy, seeing Malfoy do what he did. And it’s just throughout the beginning of this chapter, Harry is like, “I think he’s a Death Eater; I think he’s doing this,” and they’re just not having it. They can’t be convinced either way.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s tricky for me because I do think that it does have to do with the end of Order of the Phoenix, with Harry just sort of… well, at the end of Order of the Phoenix, he made a huge mistake, and now Harry is possibly, in the eyes of Ron and Hermione, jumping to conclusions, and they’re going to tackle Harry’s concerns differently this time. They’re not just going to follow his lead, because of what happened in the last book. I also think that Hermione and Ron wouldn’t want to bring up what’s going on in their minds; like, “Oh, we don’t trust you because of Order of the Phoenix, because of what happened last year.”

Eric: Right, like, “Your track record is no longer perfect, Harry. Sorry.”

Andrew: Yeah. He knows he screwed up; he doesn’t need to be reminded of it.

Eric: I wonder if it isn’t also something of like Ron and Hermione really just can’t internalize that times have changed? I feel like so much of reading this, I’m like, they’re still in their end of year four mindset where, “Voldemort is back; it’s horrible for everyone, but Dumbledore is on it, the Order exists, and they’re coming to save the day. Voldemort’s only followers are the ones he had last time.” And even just the events of the Ministry; they may even be relieved that Lucius Malfoy has been arrested, discredited, fallen from grace. They feel comfort in that, whereas Harry realizes that this isn’t over. The fat lady portrait of Gryffindor tower has not sung yet, and Voldemort is going to need to recruit more people. And this is where I think Ron and Hermione are still stuck in the end of year four stuff. Harry, talking about maybe Draco becoming a Death Eater, is realizing that although the pieces may change, the game is still very much afoot. And we know from the beginning of this book that giants are in the picture now, and Voldemort is more dangerous now than he ever has been, but I think that Ron and Hermione need to update their internal systems to be able to realize that this reality is how things are, but Harry is 100% on it. The rules of last year – like, “Dumbledore’s got this; it’s fine” – they no longer apply, and somebody like Draco could be a Death Eater. He is a Death Eater.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and I would like to know what Ron and Hermione actually think Draco is up to, because they don’t exactly present any alternative ideas.

Eric: Right!

Andrew: They’re just like, “I don’t know, Harry, but it is awfully suspicious what he seems to be up to.”

Micah: That’s a fair point. I’m actually a little bit disappointed in both Ron and Hermione in this scene, and not only that, but it perpetuates throughout the course of Half-Blood Prince, where they’re actively choosing not to believe Harry, even though he’s presenting with some relatively solid evidence. This all could have been solved, right? By pulling up Draco’s sleeve.

Eric: Just get in there!

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It would have ended all the speculation.

Andrew: Right. When you’re hiding in the train car, just drop down and pull the sleeve on your way down! The only other thing I’d add is I guess Ron and Hermione’s forcefulness in how convinced they are that Harry is wrong is meant to misdirect the reader, because in that case, it becomes an even bigger surprise as we go on through the book that Draco actually is up to no good.

Eric: Yeah, it’s super believable that everything Harry is saying about him is true, but their unwillingness to jump on board is kind of interference, the part of, “Oh, okay, what else could it be?”

Andrew: And then again, we do get the earlier chapter where we see Snape making the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, so we as the reader know that Draco is up to something. It doesn’t make sense. It is frustrating. I’m disappointed too, Micah, in Ron and Hermione.

Micah: Well, a past experience that Ron and Hermione could draw upon in this moment – putting Order of the Phoenix aside – is Chamber of Secrets, because for a good portion of that book, Harry believed that Draco was the Heir of Slytherin, and that proved to be false. And so I’m wondering, are Ron and Hermione thinking back to year two? And it’s one of those situations where “You always think it’s Draco; you always think he’s up to no good.”

Eric: Right, because they’ve said the same about Snape. “You’re always suspecting Snape! It’s never Snape!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And they put that in his face a couple of times, and it’s never great when they do.

Andrew: “You watch too much true crime, Harry. You’re suspicious of everybody.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: So as we move through Half-Blood Prince, we’ll definitely be keeping an eye on certain themes, certain things that we can connect back to Chamber of Secrets, and this is definitely one of them.

Eric: But I mean, Micah, you pointed out the evidence is really compelling. Harry points out that it’s actually Malfoy’s left arm that he showed him, and Harry, in piecing the clues together… like, “He talked of a pair of things and the other’s in the shop.” Harry has been in the cabinet in Borgin and Burkes before; we know all of the pieces are here. And yeah, Ron and Hermione’s unwillingness to believe Harry, or to get on board, or say, “Okay, something is afoot here,” other than, “Yeah, that’s suspicious; let’s ignore it,” is disappointing. But my question is – or my next question regarding this – is there a sixth sense that Harry has strictly due to the Horcrux connection with Voldemort? Now, there’s no way that Harry knows; Harry hasn’t seen Voldemort interacting with Draco, but we also heard, I think from Dumbledore, that Voldemort is actively practicing Occlumency on Harry. So Harry is not going to get these visions, but because Voldemort knows that Draco is a Death Eater, Harry knows. He doesn’t know how he knows, but he knows-knows. He knows, knows, knows, knows, knows, because of this connection. So I think that when it comes to Harry, he’s like, “Oh my God, it was the Dark Mark. He’s a Death Eater.” The reason why he’s so hooked on it is because, again, that connection, that sixth sense tells him that he’s 100% right; he’s just having so much trouble convincing Ron and Hermione because they don’t have that same connection, that same knowledge.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a really interesting question. I do think there is something there, Eric, that Harry does have this sixth sense, but he can’t put his finger on it. It’s just like… it’s in the Force. Use the Force, Harry. It’s just out there. [laughs]

Eric: Yes! You know it to be true. Search your feelings.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: But the tricky part for Harry is he has to show evidence. He can’t just be like, “Well, I got a feeling.” And Hermione and Ron are going to be like, “Uh, no.” Hermione is booksmart. You’ve got to go with evidence.

Eric: Even the evidence that they just all saw! Again, they don’t have an alternate theory here. Like, “That was suspicious,” but that’s the end of it. They just don’t care. They don’t… and it’s not that they’re bad friends; it’s almost out of character, actually, that they don’t care. Ron was supposed to be this great strategist, after all; remember his chess game at the end of year one? And I think if that character trait had stayed true throughout the whole series, Ron would be pretty invested in figuring out where the pieces were currently set on Voldemort’s side right now. He would be right there alongside Harry, going, “You’re right, this is awful, and Malfoy very much could be this. Let’s keep talking about it.” Instead, he’s the biggest voice of dissent, going, “A 16-year-old can’t be a Death Eater, Harry.”

Andrew: That is so frustrating to me.

Micah: [laughs] So let’s talk about that, then, because this is one of the pieces of evidence that are given against Draco being a Death Eater. We hear it from Ron and Hermione; we also hear it from Arthur Weasley, and so is there a cutoff? Can you not become a Death Eater until you’re 18 years old? 21?

Eric: Is there an age limit?

Andrew: [laughs] Well, the premise is so silly, because it’s like, “Guys, Voldemort is a terrible person, but he would never ask a 16-year-old to become a Death Eater.” What? This guy murders people! He tried to murder a child! He does not care what age Draco is.

Micah: It’s actually brilliant, if you think about it, to recruit younger Death Eaters, to put them inside of Hogwarts to be operating on his behalf unbeknownst, presumably, to Dumbledore. It’s actually a really smart move, so the fact that… let’s put Ron and Hermione aside for a second; the fact that somebody who’s in the Order like Arthur believes this almost to be preposterous, is…

Andrew: You’re saying it’s brilliant because nobody would suspect Draco or any other 16-year-old?

Micah: Yeah, well, I’m saying the whole idea of recruiting youth is a brilliant idea, in this case, for Voldemort, because he would be tapping into a whole different group than he did previously. And if you think about it, he would want people inside of Hogwarts to inform him on what’s going on. He assumes he has Snape, right? Okay, fine. But the students know a lot more about what’s going on in the school than the professors do. That much has been proven over the first five books. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, no, and what we learn about Voldemort in this book is that, I mean, he started killing when he was 15 or 16. He killed his parents – or his dad, anyway, his Muggle father and his whole family – when he was about that same age. And Crabbe and Goyle’s dads are both Death Eaters, too, like Malfoy’s dad is a Death Eater. Hermione and Ron really should be asking themselves what Draco is going to be when he grows up, because this entire time… they’ve known Draco for five plus years, and this 100% tracks with what Draco was always going to be. He was always going to grow into a Death Eater like his dad. He’s just as prejudiced, he’s just as horrid, he’s just as awful. Why is it so unbelievable that if Lucius were to step aside or be thwarted, that Draco wouldn’t immediately put the mask on that was dropped by his dad departing? Malfoy has no other career prospects than this, so why is it so unbelievable that this could be the case?

Micah: It’s just a frustration point for Harry. There’s no question. And I don’t even know who the first person is to actually believe him in this moment; we may not be getting it for several hundred pages at this point. But I did want to bring up Mr. Weasley again, because it’s almost like in the scene between the two of them, before he gets onto the Hogwarts Express, that he’s placating him, he’s not taking him seriously, and honestly, I expect more. I know we were talking earlier, expecting more about from Ron and Hermione; I expect more from Mr. Weasley. Now, credit to him, he does go and raid the manor again, but he doesn’t seem like he believes Harry in this moment, or that he’s going to be taking him seriously.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, especially after Harry just lost a father figure in Sirius, especially after Dumbledore was largely out of the picture in Order of the Phoenix, Arthur knows he needs some father figures who are going to take him seriously, and yeah, Arthur just isn’t there for him. So I agree with you.

Eric: I appreciate, too, this little correspondence that they have. Really, Arthur is Harry’s inside man in the Ministry, [laughs] which I appreciate, but I get the sense, especially here, that Arthur is not… and we see this from government officials; they’re not there to meet the moment. They’re not able to meet the moment as it’s needing to be met. So Harry delivers this information, even to somebody who’s vaguely the right person, and certainly an Order member can relay that to other Ministry officials who are Order members. But it’s either so unbelievable or it just hits it at the exact wrong way, where Arthur really isn’t able to do anything about it. If he raids the manor… that’s all he can do. He keeps doing that; that’s not going to uncover anything that it’s not supposed to.

Andrew: By the way, concerning young wizards becoming Death Eaters, there’s a couple people in the Discord bringing up good points. Kamilah said, “Lucius and Snape and all of them were super young when they joined the Death Eaters.”

Eric: Uh-huh.

Andrew: And Carlee is bringing up that Barty Crouch, Jr. was around 19; Regulus was a teenager too… so thank you to our patrons listening live on Discord tonight, bringing up these great points. And Arthur should know this! Okay, maybe Ron and Hermione don’t, but Arthur should.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, troubled youths are at risk for becoming radicalized, and if your dad’s a Death Eater… I’m just saying, if Draco was always on that path, why is it so shocking to Ron and Hermione that Harry thinks it’s the case now? When there’s actually… for 15 years, there wasn’t a Voldemort to defend or rally alongside; now there is. If Malfoy was ever going to do it, it’s going to be this year and the next.

Andrew: And what good will has Draco ever earned in the eyes of Ron and Hermione? There is no reason to not believe Harry. [laughs]

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: At least Mr. Weasley is trying to give the benefit of the doubt, I think? But historically, especially with all these other proofs like Barty Crouch, Jr. and all these other real world examples of this happening – real world being the fictional wizarding world – but I think it’s completely reasonable what Harry is suggesting, and I think everyone should believe him.

Andrew: Hashtag #BelieveHarry.

Micah: We were talking about how this conversation between Harry and Mr. Weasley happens on the platform, but Harry boards the Hogwarts Express, and he ends up in a compartment with Neville and with Luna, so a little bit of a reunion there of Dumbledore’s Army.

Eric: Aw.

Micah: And there’s this moment where Harry is looking at Neville, and what I really liked about it is – and I had totally forgot about this scene – he’s able to imagine Neville as the Chosen One. And to see this through Harry’s perspective, through his eyes, knowing what he knows about the prophecy, and taking a long, hard look at Neville acting the way that Neville does, saying, “This kid just has no idea that it could have been him.”

Andrew: Yeah. Do you think he’s almost looking at Neville with envy? I say that because he’s like, “Oh, what if there was this alternative universe where Voldemort did decide the other person was Neville, and I could have been free of all this, and my parents could have still been alive?” There’s so many different scenarios that could play out in his head. And I’m sure Harry wouldn’t want it to be Neville, but maybe the thought crossed his mind, “What if it was someone else?”

Eric: Yeah, I mean, this is the first time Harry is in Neville’s presence since finding that information, and so it’s fitting that he has this sort of aside where it hits him. But it’s really intense, really in deep detail; it talks about whether Alice would have sacrificed herself, whether he would have been protected the same way that Harry was. And we know that Lily was spared because of the specific arrangement between Voldemort and Snape, and unless Snape was also very much into Alice, I think things would have had to have played out very differently in that eventual confrontation if he had chosen Neville. So it’s impossible to say, but interesting to see Harry reflecting on this, I think, and the only problem I have with it is that Neville is under the impression that Harry is listening to him talk, and Harry is very much not. [laughs] He’s tuning Neville out to his face and going, “Oh, man, this kid could have been the Chosen One, and instead I am.” And it’s like Neville is having a whole conversation with him the whole time. Just thinking more about Neville real quick, we do find out what his wand is, and it’s interesting; it’s written in such a way as to be sort of throwaway, but given the focus that Book 7 has on wandlore, I thought it was interesting that during a moment when Harry is bemusedly thinking about the Chosen One and how Neville could have been it, we also get this little detail about what his wand is. I was like, “That could have played some kind of a role.” The stage might be being set, is all it is. It doesn’t, as far as I know, amount to anything, but really interesting that it gets mentioned.

Andrew: Well, and another reason to suspect that Draco is up to no good, honestly. I mean, Draco is in Diagon Alley at Borgin and Burkes, the same area where… oh, no, Ollivanders is in Hogsmeade, so that wouldn’t make sense.

Eric: Oh, but the… or no, Ollivanders is in Diagon Alley.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, okay.

Micah: You’re messing it up with the theme park.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s exactly what’s happening. [laughs]

Eric: It’s that darn Wizarding World of Harry Potter theme park putting an Ollivanders right next to the joke shop Zonko’s!

Andrew: No, literally. That’s so true. Yeah, so that’s just more reason to be like, “Okay, Draco is up to no good.” Ollivander has gone missing? Like, come on.

Eric: Well, yeah, and Ollivander was disappeared the day after Neville… so Ollivander’s last act as a wand provider could have been to give Neville Longbottom, the alternate Chosen One, his wand. How suspicious is…? How potentially poignant is it?

Micah: His true wand, because remember, he was using his father’s wand for the first five books…

Eric: Right.

Micah: … so now he should be able to do his own magic without having any kind of limitations, let’s say, because he’s using another wizard’s wand.

Eric: I mean, I could easily have seen this – it’s mentioned that it’s, I think, unicorn hair – but I could easily see this being the third tail feather of the phoenix, something that he got from Ollivander before Ollivander went.

Micah: Just to wrap us up, one thing I wanted to mention that got brought up in the Discord by James: He said that, “I think it’s because Neville’s comment that his grandmother said she’d love to have Harry as a grandson triggered this simultaneous sensation in Harry where he feels envy but also sadness that his and Neville’s lives are mirrors, and everything could have been different because of one decision made by Voldemort.”

Andrew: Yeah. I really think that has to be brewing in Harry’s head. This is just a really wild alternative reality to consider.

Eric: Yeah, it’s hard not to get hung up on the “What if?” That’s why we have such a great segment of “What if?” on our show. It’s so important. But Harry rarely does it; Harry rarely has this deep level of retrospection and thought of what might have been. It’s such a unique experience reading it in this chapter.

Micah: Well, I’m just checking, did everybody get their invitation?

Andrew and Eric: To the Slug Club?

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: [emotionally] No…

Eric: Mine was hand-delivered by a young kid that just looked very… stared at me. They wouldn’t stop staring at me.

Andrew: It’s fine. I don’t even want to be in the Slug Club. I don’t need that.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, some of us will be going off to Professor Slughorn’s compartment. Others will be just hanging back and, I don’t know, finding something to do with their day.

Andrew: Podcasting.

Micah: So the infamous Slug Club. First off, the name is trash, okay? [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, Micah is jealous he didn’t get an invite.

Eric: Well, hang on. We named a whole section of our Patreon “Slug Club,” so how much can we really rag on it?

Andrew: It’s a brilliant name.

Micah: Eh… all right, I’ll have to concede a little bit there. But it does carry with it a certain amount of symbolism. And I was doing a little bit of digging on slugs, and the Slug Club presents this glamorous exterior – you think about the fine food that’s served, the elite company that all of these students are around, that Slughorn surrounds himself with – but yet it hides something that’s just a little bit unpleasant beneath the surface. And this whole idea of a slug hints that the club’s surface charm masks something morally slippery, and borrowing…

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: [laughs] Is it because slugs are slippery?

Micah: Well, we’re going to get into some slug analogy here, because Slughorn himself oozes charm to get close to fame, he slides away from discomfort, like hiding the Horcrux memory, and he leaves a trail, as slugs often do, of influence behind.

Eric: Ahh.

Micah: Some beneficial, some questionable. So a little name origin-ish segment there.

[Name origin sound effect plays]

Micah: But yeah, what are our general thoughts on the Slug Club?

Andrew: Nicole, do you want to start?

Nicole: Yeah!

Micah: As a Slug Club member yourself.

[Andrew and Nicole laugh]

Nicole: Right, exactly.

Andrew: So Nicole’s computer was having some issues, but she’s back now. Welcome back, Nicole. Sorry for the Nargles.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: I love it. It’s Wrackspurts. They get mentioned in this chapter.

Andrew: Oh, yes. Yes, this week it’s Wrackspurts.

Micah: They’re all causing chaos together.

Andrew: [imitating Luna] “Was it Wrackspurts?”

Micah: General thoughts on the Slug Club?

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, at the root of it, it seems just kind of selfish, that these are people he wants to spend time with for his own gain, whether he gains anything from it or not.

Andrew: I am not a fan of it. I think – and we were kind of debating this a couple of weeks ago – but I think it’s too clique-y for an active professor to have this “elite” – air quotes – group of people who he exclusively meets with, and they dine well, and they get to mingle with one another. I don’t think this type of organization should be running at the school. Do you want to do it maybe over the summer breaks? That might make sense. Or outside of Hogwarts; do it at Hogsmeade. But the fact that this is happening in school, run by one of the professors, and he decides who gets to join, it rubs me the wrong way.

Eric: Well, and what’s the urgency? Why does the first ever meeting of the Slug Club for this school year need to happen on the train there?!

Andrew: That part was weird too.

Eric: And that’s really where…

Micah: Because you’ve got to catch ’em all, Eric.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You’ve got to catch ’em all, so you’ve got to start early. Yeah, right. Just north of Pallet Town, there’s that grass; I’ve got to catch my first several Pokémon, everyone that’s in there.

Micah: [laughs] That’s right.

Eric: No, it just… here’s the biggest takeaway from this encounter: Nobody has a good time. Everyone looks… it goes through… Slughorn questions everybody about their connections, about their validity. Harry is analyzing. He’s like, “Oh, he seems to have reserved judgment on some of these people; whether they’ll be permanent members or not is up to Slughorn.” That just feels gross. But yeah, it turns out that whatever Slughorn heard about Belby’s uncle or McLaggen’s closeness with the Minister, that all turns out not to be exactly what he thought it was, and half of the meal is spent just informing him of that? He could have either done his research beforehand, before handing out these exclusive invitations that have his secret initials on them to people that may or may not be connected in the way that he thinks he does. And the pheasant is probably delicious, but I can’t see anybody walking away from this going, “Good time.”

Micah: It’s cold, though. At least what we heard. Yeah, it’s definitely off-putting to see this kind of thing. And the question, too, is how long has it been since Horace has convened a Slug Club? Because times change, people change, and perhaps the students that he’s trying to draw in here, as you were saying… because I think it’s important that really, none of these students care at all that they are being recruited to the Slug Club, and maybe part of that, too, is a legacy factor, right? That he hasn’t been around for a while, so nobody even knows what the Slug Club is.

Eric: Ahh.

Micah: Perhaps it used to carry with it a certain level of gravitas or importance, but now it’s like, nobody even knows who Slughorn is.

Eric: No, the students in this year are millennials. They just want to be on their cell phones the whole time.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: They don’t care about this prestige.

Andrew: And I don’t think any of the students really enjoy being in it much, as was just being raised, because Slughorn is just like the annoying uncle who talks too much. You just want to get out of there. And yeah, that is a great question, too; when was the last meeting? Because none of these kids know this guy until now, but maybe they’re like, “Oh, well, it does feel exclusive, so that’s exciting.” We all like the feeling of being part of an exclusive group. You get limited time access to something; that’s always a good marketing tactic.

Micah: A free physical gift.

Andrew: Yeah! Livestream access…

Eric: Well, I’m so glad you mentioned that, Micah. I will say, Gryffindors are overrepresented. There’s four Gryffindors and one Slytherin and one Ravenclaw. Now, Nicole, as a Gryffindor – one of the rare Gryffindors we speak to on our show – how do you feel about the percentage of Gryffindors that are represented here? Do you feel like that adequately says something about Gryffindors as a people?

Nicole: No, I’m with you; there needs to be more representation. Especially if you’re going to have a club, I feel like you would want… that’s your chance to hang out with people in different Houses.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Well, you buried the lead. There are no Hufflepuffs.

Eric: Well, that’s just our personality trait. Hufflepuffs don’t seek glory, so if Slughorn is just half-assedly looking down the corridors for anyone he thinks is interesting, you’re going to find people hexing others – like Ginny; that’s how she gets there – and not find the harder-to-find Hufflepuffs who are probably tending Mooncalves or something in the back compartment.

Andrew: Well, I used to think that it was just fans and the fandom who created all the Hufflepuff hate, but it’s actually really canon how there’s a lot of Hufflepuff hate and a lot of Hufflepuff erasure. It starts in Book 1 with Draco’s “I hope I don’t get Sorted into Hufflepuff.”

Eric: “I think I’d leave! I think I’d leave, wouldn’t you?”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I’m supporting the Hufflepuffs today with the sweatshirt I have on.

Andrew: You are, you are.

Eric: I appreciate that.

Micah: But Eric, as you mentioned, the breakdown of the different Houses. So in terms of characters, though, we have Harry, Neville, Ginny, Blaise Zabini, Cormac McLaggen, and Marcus Belby. So this is the initial group that we are introduced to; it will grow as we move on in this book. But let’s talk about Ginny. Eric, you brought her up. Why Ginny? What does it say that Slughorn evaluates her based on talent versus her last name – which is a pure-blood last name – or just legacy? Where clearly, that’s how most of these other people were invited to the table.

Andrew: So I actually have a crackpot theory about this: I actually don’t think it’s about her talent at all. My crackpot theory is that Slughorn was… he says he’s impressed by a hex that she did, but what if Slughorn knows that Tom Riddle/the diary were talking to her and influencing her back in Chamber of Secrets, and he wants to get closer to Ginny to learn more about that dynamic? This has nothing to do about Ginny’s talent at all.

Eric: I’m blown away.

Andrew: Are you? [sheepishly] Oh, just a thought I had.

Nicole: Well, I love a good crackpot theory, but I feel like the text shows us that he really didn’t even know her name. He just calls her “Miss” when they’re leaving, and he makes sure to say, “Harry,” “Blaise,” and with her, he does not say her name once, so I feel like that is telling us she’s really here and is the only one because of her actual accomplishments, not just because of her name or because he knows who she is. Not that I’d want to hate on your theory, because it is really cool. [laughs]

Andrew: No, that’s fair. But I guess my counterpoint would just be he’s maybe just being polite, using “Miss.”

Eric: Well, Ginny has such a – like you said – connection to a particular Horcrux, and Slughorn is the reason why there are Horcruxes in this world right now that we’re dealing with. [laughs] Slughorn is responsible for the fact that Ginny ever had to contend with a Horcrux! Loosely. So it’s an interesting connection, to say the least. But the other aspect of this, too, is that the Weasleys are a huge pure-blood family. The author wrote this thing called the Sacred 28, and both Slughorn and Weasleys are two of the 28 pure-blood families in the whole world. So if he doesn’t know Ginny, he at least knows the Weasleys.

Andrew: True.

Eric: And in fact, here’s something interesting, though: I’m reminded that in a previous chapter, Molly said that Slughorn never seemed to have time for Arthur, so I think that what ended up happening is Slughorn’s own little prejudices – maybe Arthur was unremarkable at school or something – but Slughorn had largely written off these pure-bloods, and it was only at the last possible second, when he realized there were two more seats at the table or something, that he started looking down the corridors. “Who can I invite?” Saw her hexing Zacharias Smith, and decided, “Oh, she can come too.” Maybe he was surprised that she’s a Weasley.

Micah: Which is funny, because I don’t really think Ginny even gets a seat at the table, if there even is a table, because it’s a very small compartment, which is noted by Harry, especially with Slughorn being in there…

Eric: Again, why not wait a day?

Micah: … and then Ginny is kind of tucked in the corner, literally.

Andrew: And also, she’s the one girl in this class, if you will, of new inductees, which also lends to the theory that he was just kind of picking somebody at random.

Eric: There’s a bias here.

Andrew: Or like, “Oh, talent. Come on in.”

Eric: Yeah, well, that’s very real, cognitive bias and even unconscious bias, of “What does success and talent look like to me, this old man who’s long ago taught at Hogwarts for decades?” And it represents overwhelmingly male, and kind of… I don’t know, it’s just funny to look at what these people are known for. Blaise’s, I guess, mother is very famous for maybe having killed seven dudes that she was married to. [laughs] So it’s also kind of funny to just look at what it is that piqued Slughorn’s interest about these other people that aren’t Harry.

Micah: And Nicole, you had an interesting point here about why Harry and Neville were chosen.

Nicole: Yeah, they’re really only there because of their trauma. So imagine someone is like, “Hey, I really want to hang out with you and just talk about the worst thing that’s ever happened to you,” and that’s the reason why you’re here. That’s a little weird.

Eric: It’s a little insensitive.

Micah: Absolutely. And I don’t necessarily think that Slughorn is evil, but he’s deeply complicit in systems of favoritism and elitism. And this is a little bit of a different edge to Slytherin than we’ve seen through the first couple books, and I would actually even say that it’s not something that’s unique to Slytherins, because I think that there are some comparisons we can draw to Chamber of Secrets to the… I mean, at this point, we don’t know that Slughorn isn’t going to be the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor, but let’s just say the new professor on the train. I think we can make some comparisons here to Gilderoy Lockhart, who was a Ravenclaw.

Eric: I love this line of thinking here, that there are similarities between those.

Micah: Because, yeah, they are both extremely self-absorbed.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. They’re also… they miss the full picture of what’s right in front of them. I think they tend to make assumptions. It’s when Lockhart is always walking up to Harry, “Oh, famous Harry Potter. He loves being famous as much as I do.” That’s a completely wrong read of somebody who’s right in front of him, and if he were more observant or less, I don’t know, bombastic and assuming, he might get farther.

Micah: But they’re both drawn to Harry’s celebrity.

Andrew: Popularity, yeah. I mean, even Slughorn mentions in this chapter, “Oh, Harry, they call you the Chosen One! Oohoo!”

Eric: Yeah, and they want to capitalize on it, or they want… they think it elevates them. They’re not actually there to help him; they’re both using Harry and they also think that… they have a high opinion of what they themselves can offer to the world. All Lockhart ever did was take credit for smarter and better wizards’ stuff, but he had such a high opinion of himself, and Slughorn really prides himself on boosting the careers of these students, but maybe all he ended up doing was un-evening the playing field for some of the people that would have gotten less overlooked. Who knows?

Micah: Both also like messing with memory.

Eric: That blows my mind.

Andrew: Yep, yep.

Micah: Maybe in Slughorn’s case, he doesn’t like it, but he had no problem doing it in order to achieve his ends.

Andrew: Right. And doesn’t want to admit to it still, really, or talk about it. Both are also about fame, but in different ways. So Lockhart wanted to be famous, but then Slughorn wants to be associated with the famous, or just unique people, and maybe just be famous by association.

Micah: Agreed.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And maybe that’s the difference between Slytherin and Ravenclaw or something. I don’t know.

Micah: Perhaps. So we wrap up this chapter inside the Slytherin compartment. Harry, once leaving the Slug Club, sees an opportunity to trail Blaise and make his way into the compartment. And I would argue that he makes as ill-advised a move as Hermione does at the end of the previous chapter…

Eric: Augh.

Micah: … because he is just so hell-bent on proving that Draco is a Death Eater. Do we agree or disagree?

Eric: Agree.

Andrew: I agree with you. Jumping back to the earlier discussion, maybe he really wants to convince himself he can be on the right track. He’s still feeling the events of the last book, “Oh, I got played by Voldemort”; now he wants to convince himself he’s still got it – he’s still the Chosen One – so he’s determined to prove his theory true.

Eric: Here’s where it’s so hard to read this for Harry: Malfoy bests him in every possible way, completely annihilates Harry. But for somebody who’s claiming that Draco is a Death Eater, Harry manages to take 0.00 precautions for “What if that’s true?” Seriously, what if that is true? You haven’t just gone into the compartment where your old teenage school rival is; you’ve gone into a compartment where a Death Eater, who could know some serious stuff, is talking about actual secret plans with his closest fellow Slytherins. And Harry makes just a ton of mistakes, just a ton of mistakes, one right after the other. Doesn’t really have a plan for getting in there, so he puts his foot in the door to have it jam, drawing attention to himself, shows his shoe when he climbs up into the rack, isn’t prepared, isn’t watching Crabbe or Goyle when they get their suitcase, so audibly gasps from the rack when he’s hit in the head with it. Just one thing after the other. Harry, if you’re going to be making these accusations, if you want to get to the bottom of this, you need to think more strategically. This flying by the seat of your pants kind of stuff… I’m sick of it. We know he’s only going to keep doing it all the way through all of Book 7, too, but you’ve got to understand, this is dangerous territory now. This is dangerous territory, and Harry is lucky that what happens to him isn’t worse, even though it’s the most horrible thing that ever happens to Harry that we read about in the books.

Andrew: My big gripe is that when him and Draco are alone in the compartment, Harry doesn’t immediately try to be on the offensive. He should have tackled Draco, pulled down that sleeve, revealed that Dark Mark…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Oh, and run?

Andrew: Just had the first punch, if you will.

Eric: Well, it’s Petrificus Totalus. He’s petrified.

Andrew: Yeah, but he should have attacked Draco before that even happened, I’m saying.

Eric: Oh, yeah, when it was just Draco in the… yeah. I think, yeah, absolutely.

Nicole: Like you were saying, he should have cut his losses once he realized he was seen and acted a little bit quicker. But I absolutely hate this part; it’s so claustrophobic to me.

[Andrew and Nicole laugh]

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Nicole: I want to skip over the beginning of the next chapter.

Andrew: Aww. Don’t worry, Tonks will save the day.

Nicole: Right. [laughs]

Micah: What I found interesting about when Harry enters this compartment is it’s almost like Draco is holding his own version of the Slug Club…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … because he’s sitting there with Crabbe and Goyle and Blaise and Pansy, and he’s talking… I guess the only difference would be the people who are in this compartment, for the most part, are actually interested in what Draco has to say, versus Slughorn, nobody was interested in what he had to say.

Nicole: Yeah, this is what Slughorn wants his Slug Club to be like.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Maybe he could take some tips.

Andrew: Maybe it once was.

Micah: Right, and that’s something that actually comes up in conversation with Blaise, who was just in the Slug Club, and there’s this line here that I wanted to call attention to. I think we actually talked about it when we last did this Chapter by Chapter, because… was it Nott who comes up? There’s one of the Death Eaters – or one of the sons of Death Eaters – who comes up, and Zabini makes the point when Draco then goes on to talk about himself, “I don’t think Slughorn’s interested in Death Eaters.” And I think that’s a clear message to us as readers. It’s a little bit of an indirect way of letting us know that Draco is a Death Eater.

Eric: Could be, yeah. And it speaks to… I mean, I think that probably some of Slughorn’s top students 40 years ago or 25 years ago were the ones that became the Death Eaters, like Lucius Malfoy, and he probably fostered a lot of their connections at the Ministry too. But after having seen what became of that, after having seen what became of Tom Riddle and some of his students, Slughorn has now distanced himself, or is smart enough about it in front of Dumbledore – where Dumbledore can find out – to not invite a bunch of Death Eater kids to his inaugural Slug Club of this school year.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Ooh, Micah, you’re pulling out Book 6. What are you looking up?

Micah: Yeah, I just want to make sure I get this line right.

Andrew: I love when a host pulls out the book. It’s so authentic.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: Nicole, before we get to MVP of the Week, you did have one odd and end for us concerning Neville’s new wand, right?

Nicole: Yeah, because I noticed that it was cherry and unicorn. The unicorn isn’t that special, but the cherry wood is apparently extremely rare, according to what once was… Pottermore is now just HarryPotter.com, which sounds like it’s… that sounds like a fake source.

[Andrew and Nicole laugh]

Nicole: But yeah, so not only was it Ollivander’s last wand that he sold before disappearing, it was a pretty special and rare one, which I thought was kind of cool.

Andrew: That’s interesting.

Nicole: And Neville deserves to feel special.

Micah: So just to go back to that quote, it’s Zabini who says, “I wouldn’t bank on an invitation. He asked me about Nott’s father when I first arrived. They used to be old friends, apparently, but when he heard he’d been caught at the Ministry he didn’t look happy, and Nott didn’t get an invitation, did he? I don’t think Slughorn’s interested in Death Eaters.” Now, that is Blaise presuming that Draco is the same as Nott, which would be a Death Eater.

Eric: Or at least somebody whose dad is.

Micah: Yeah, but I think we can read more into that, knowing what we know.

Eric: Yeah, no, I agree.

Andrew: Well, that’s going to kill my MVP of the Week suggestion. Dang it.

Eric: Oooh, darn.

Andrew: I’ll stick with it anyway. Thanks, Nicole, for sharing that about the wand too.

Nicole: Yeah!


Superlative of the Week


Micah: All right, moving on to MVP, we want to know who’s one character in Harry’s year who deserves to be inducted into the Slug Club? So not members that we already know of.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: So I’m going to stick with my pick, even though this was a great call-out just a minute ago. I’m going to say Draco Malfoy! Slughorn wants to know what’s been going on with Lucius, and he would want to spend a lot of time talking to Draco about that, and then maybe he probably wants to know what Draco was going through as well.

Eric: Since we’re talking about making the Slug Club a better, more inclusive space…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … I think the Patil twins should be – yeah, we were talking about that, right? – the Patil twins would actually be a great addition to the Slug Club, because they’re twins, but one of them is in Gryffindor, and the other is in Ravenclaw. That’s fascinating! How does that happen? Let’s ask them a hundred questions. So I think…

Micah: No Hufflepuff?

Eric: Still no Hufflepuff. No, we don’t seek glory. We don’t care. We’re over it.

Micah: Oh, all right.

Eric: We just can’t wait to get our hands in some dirt and some chocolate in our faces. I’m speaking on behalf of all Hufflepuffs right now.

[Micah and Nicole laugh]

Micah: All right. Adding another Ravenclaw to the mix, Anthony Goldstein, distant relative of Tina Goldstein and Queenie Goldstein.

Eric: Oh, yeah!

Micah: And they were pretty badass, so…

Eric: They were badass.

Micah: And being inclusive, as you mentioned. I think the only Jewish student at Hogwarts. [laughs] That we know of.

Eric: Pretty much. Yeah, the one that gets pointed to.

Nicole: Well, I’ll give you some Hufflepuff representation, Eric. Susan Bones. Since her aunt Madam Bones is the Head of Magical Law Enforcement, I feel like that’s someone Slughorn is going to want in his corner maybe later in the book, when he accidentally poisons a minor. That might come in handy.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Smart.

Eric: Yeah, appreciate that. When Slughorn has more than 30 minutes to dedicate to figuring out what roster looks like, I think he’d do it a little differently. Yeah, I don’t know why this had to happen on the train, now that we think about it.

[Andrew laughs]


Lynx Line


Micah: All right, and then over on our Lynx Line, we asked our patrons the question of the week, and since they are our Slug Club, if they were to create their own version of it, what criteria would they value most? And what name would they give to the club? They could rename it; doesn’t have to be the Slug Club.

Andrew: Oh, and people did rename it. Betty B. said the club name is Positively Kind Peeps.

“Values: to lift other people up and put a smile on their face. Go around passing out stickers and pins that have kind, happy, uplifting and life-affirming messages on them. Be Kind, You Rock! Don’t let the Muggles get you down!”

Eric: I love that idea for a club. Rachel says for a club name, Bibbidi Boppity Books, and “It’s a book club. All avid readers welcome! Each month we’d read a book and have a discussion over a shared meal.” Love that.

Micah: Zachary says Brewsers, and the values and mission:

“To offer a safe space to enjoy your favorite drinks, let off some steam, and to talk in a safe environment. Everyone needs a place away from the everyday life where they can help and appreciate and lift others up. Talking about sports, books, movies, shows is highly encouraged! Members: Anyone with open minds and ears!”

Eric: Years six and up, I hope.

Andrew: Yes.

Nicole: Cassandra said,

“Sports Club! It’s always bugged me that Quidditch involves so few students. Our Sports Club will set up games of soccer, football, volleyball, track, etc. Members: Muggle-borns who miss the sports they play at home will be the first to join, but all are welcome to come out and have fun!”

I feel like that would be funny, to think about the Muggle-borns showing non-wizard sports to the wizard-borns.

Andrew: “And this is football!” Michael said,

“Savage Students. Tagline: Only for Fred and George and people alike them. Values: Literally none, basically. We break rules, not make them. Members: Fred, George, all of the young Marauders, and Peeves. This club is for Umbridge haters only.”

Eric: Okay! I appreciate that. Very mischievous. Carly – whose surname, by the way, we’re saying it because it comes up here, Carly Poore – says the group name is Poore Intentions, and the values:

“Unlike the name, we have nothing but good intentions; we value kindness and generosity! We’d regularly do charity work for fellow witches and wizards in need, and do fundraisers for fellow students who need help paying for their school supplies!”

Micah: Kyle says,

“The Squib Club. Squibs deserve a place at Hogwarts, so I would find a way to invite them to Hogwarts and then start to get them a place at the school. There’s no way they shouldn’t be allowed to take classes like Muggle Studies, History of Magic, or many others.”

Andrew: That’s very nice of you, Kyle.

Eric: Astronomy, Care of Magical Creatures… yeah.

Nicole: And Julie Ann said, “Magical Cookery Club. Tagline: ‘Helping House-Elves Take a Holiday since 1802.'”

[Eric laughs]

Nicole: “Since I’m really into Wizards of Baking right now, each person would have to bring a magical recipe. One person would do a cooking demonstration per session. At key holiday points in the year, they would host an open house and share tasty treats (not just desserts).”

Andrew: Mmm.

Nicole: Love that.

Andrew: And finally, Kayla said,

“The Chosen Ones. Value: To make those who are not often picked first feel included and valued. Every meeting we would learn a new thing, anything, from the members. Members would include Ron, Neville, Luna, some others I can’t think of right now… and Hagrid. The members’ only eligibility factor is not being chosen for many other clubs. If they’re on one or two extra curricular clubs, that’s okay, but this is for the people who don’t often get chosen for clubs.”

Good, Kayla! I would join that when I was in elementary or middle school. We had more great submissions; check them all out on our Patreon. Thanks, everybody, for writing in. It’s great reading your suggestions, and the Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We ask a new question every week. Become a member of our community today by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and receiving this and many more benefits, like bonus MuggleCast. If you have feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or leave a comment on Spotify, YouTube, DM us, whatever is easiest for you. Next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 8, “Snape Victorious.” Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question – we were talking about ice cream going out of business – the factory grounds of which famous ice cream company features a “flavor graveyard” with headstones commemorating each of its retired ice cream flavors that didn’t sell well enough? The correct answer was Ben & Jerry’s in Waterbury, Vermont, and 83% of people with the correct answer did not look it up, so that’s actually a fairly well known thing. The flavor graveyard is a delight; everyone should check it out. I have been more than one occasion, and it’s good ice cream. This week’s winners were A Healthy Breeze; Adeline’s Magical Ice Cream Cart; Alas, Poor Florean! We knew him, Hermione; Ben & Jerry give the vibe that they went to Ilvermorny; Ben & Jerry Tooth-Rotter and the Waffler’s Cone; Elizabeth K.; Geminio Those Audiobooks!; Gwen Weasley; I Play Fluffy’s Harp; Insert Witty Name Here; Mint-istry of Magic; Narcissa’s Loser Husband; PB S’more; QuidWitch; Rebrand, Ben and Jamie’s Harry Garcia; Rock Lobster & Shrimp Ice Cream; The Teaspoon That Is Ron’s Emotional Range; and our friend Tofu Tom. And here is next week’s Quizzitch question: Speaking of the Slug Club and networking, name the author of the wildly successful book How to Win Friends and Influence People, which was initially published in 1936. Fun fact: In 2013, that book was rated number seven most influential book in American history by the Library of Congress.

Andrew: Dang. Wow.

Eric: Have you read it? Anybody here read it?

Andrew: Started it, but never finished it. I just joined the Bumble BFF app instead to find friends. [laughs]

Eric: Oh. Yeah, and you’ve got plenty of friends through the podcast, so you don’t really need that.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: So submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website. The Quizzitch form can be found on there; it’s located at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, and click on “Quizzitch” on our website on the main nav bar.

Andrew: Speaking of friends, thank you to friend of the pod, Nicole, for joining us today. We really appreciate all your insight, and thanks for helping me review the new Wizarding World Ministry of Magic land at Epic Universe. It was great seeing you and having you on again.

Nicole: Thank you, anytime.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Nicole: And I’m Nicole.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Micah: Bye.

Transcript #728

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #728, Agent Granger (HBP Chapter 6, Draco’s Detour)


Cold Open


Eric: Five hours to access your account. They need online banking.

Julian: And somehow Bill can just go in and get Harry’s gold? I just… I have so many follow-up questions about…

[Micah laughs]

Julian: I’m like, “Does Harry have a list?”

Micah: I’m glad you do, because I do too.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Micah Tannenbaum: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Micah.

Eric Scull: And I’m Eric.

Micah: And we’re your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies, and the upcoming TV show. Make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app so you never miss a week with your Harry Potter friends. And this week, don’t get distracted by the WonderWitch product line. A love potion is captivating, but Draco Malfoy sneaking off down Nocturn Alley is going to have longer-lasting implications. Our highly acclaimed Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 6 of Half-Blood Prince, “Draco’s Detour.” And as you may have noticed, Andrew is taking a well-deserved vacation with family, but to help us with our discussion today, we have our old friend, and for the first time, finally, Professor Julian Wamble, PhD. Julian, it’s great to meet you. I feel like this has just been a long time coming.

Julian Wamble: Micah, we had to make sure that the people were ready for us to be together, and so it was just…

[Micah laughs]

Julian: It took a little time, and now I think they’re prepared.

Eric: It’s too much power in one room, is what it is.

Julian: It’s true. It’s true.

Eric: Also, now we have definitive proof that you two aren’t the same person. I was beginning to wonder. I was beginning to…

[Micah laughs]

Julian: And you know, there were a lot of allegations, and I’m really glad that we can finally lay them to rest, and so honestly, I think this was the moment, and I’m so glad to be here. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I’m glad to finally set TannenWamble-gate to rest.

[Micah laughs]

Julian: Yeah, the people have been talking about it in the Patreon, in the Discord, YouTube, everywhere, and so now the rumors can rest.

Eric: Julian, it’s so great to have you back with us. Thank you so much for joining.

Julian: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’m always so excited to be here.

Eric: So this is your third episode of MuggleCast.

Julian: I know, I know.

Eric: We last spoke to you in June, doing the “Snape’s Worst Memory” chapter of Order of the Phoenix.

Julian: Yes.

Eric: And that was awesome. And we actually first had you on for “Professor Trelawney’s Prediction.”

Julian: Yeah, it’s me and the professors, and now it’s me and Draco.

Eric: Yeah. Well, these are topics that you’ve covered on your Critical Magic Theory podcast too.

Julian: Yeah, yeah. We just finished up a big, long, excruciatingly long series on Snape, and now… yeah, so Snape, we spent a lot of time on him, and now we’re moving on to Dumbledore this week…

Eric: Oooh.

Julian: … which also is going to be a six-episode arc, so what a time that will be. But yeah, no, we have a great time there on Critical Magic Theory. And yeah, we spend a considerable amount of time talking about all of these things that we will be talking about today, so I’m excited.

Eric: Yeah, are you sporting some merch, did I see?

Julian: Oh, yeah, always. My “Be Critical, Stay Magical” sweatshirt, yeah.

Eric: Aw. Well, I love this. I was looking back on the Critical Magic Theory episodes to find out if you ever did Draco, because of course, this is a very Draco…

Julian: Yeah, we did.

Eric: Early on.

Julian: Yeah, so I structure it so that the first… we went through all the pure-bloods first, and then…

Eric: Why? Any particular reason? Do you feel like they’re maybe superior to other wizards?

Julian: So I think that they think they’re superior to other wizards, and one of the big things that we talk about is kind of as citizens, the way that the social hierarchy is set up, it’s pure-bloods are on top. So it’s like, if we think about how magical people structure their own lives in the way that they engage with the magical world, they do so with that particular group in mind. So we went through all of the pure-bloods first, and we’re working our way through all the half-bloods on that right now, and then we’ll do Muggle-borns, and then we’ll do pretty much everyone else, like the Muggles, and then everyone else. So yeah, that was the structure. So we went through Draco – we had two episodes on Draco – and we did Lucius and Narcissa and Bellatrix, so we did them all kind of as a unit, so yeah.

Eric: Wow. No, that’s great. That makes sense to me. And also, I wouldn’t want to be fielding angry emails from these pure-blood types, the Malfoys, etc., as to why I haven’t covered them on my podcast.

Julian: No, exactly. And so it makes… so I wanted to make sure that we went through all of them, because they are the ones who kind of dictate the way the world looks. And then from there, we move into the space of thinking about how some of the other people who sit in between, like our half-bloods, some of them are more in line with pure-bloods, and then some of them are not, and so we spend some time thinking about their relationship with the rest of the magical world through their blood status.

Eric: Well, and this is, I think, a really smart way that even history is taught, too, if you’re looking down British monarchs, for instance. You’re learning about the king and the queen, and only then can you have that conversation of “What were the peasants doing during this time?”

Julian: Right, right, exactly. And also thinking about even for what we’ll be talking about today, it’s like part of what… Draco and Narcissa in Madam Malkin’s shop, they get away with things that I don’t think other people would get away with, but also they’re trying to hold on to the status of who they were, even though Lucius is locked down, and I think part of their motivation is because they have… they’re in such high esteem because of their blood status, but also because of their money. So that identity plays a really big part in what they do, and so I think it’s trying to set that up so people can understand that before we talked about others, was kind of my motivation.

Eric: Yeah. Well, definitely, people, listeners, if you’re not already listening to Julian’s podcast, CriticalMagicTheory.com. Critical Magic Theory, where podcasts are found.

Julian: It’s there.

Eric: Am I missing anything out?

Julian: No, no, no, that’s it. That’s where you’ll find it.

Micah: I also want to mention the TikTok, right?

Eric: Yes!

Julian: True. That is true.

Eric: How’s that going? I happened to see a video you posted yesterday – I was going to call you out on a little later – about how good a father Lucius is.

Julian: I’m just saying that he shows up. Now, there is lots of conversation, both on TikTok and on Instagram, about whether or not he’s a good dad. I think – and I will say this, and it’s important for this episode – I think Draco thinks he’s a good father. I think whether or not we as readers see that, that’s up for debate. But I think Draco feels very locked in. So yes, my Instagram @Prof.JW, and my TikTok @ProfW, I post snippets of my lectures from my class “Harry Potter and the Politics of Social Identity.” And yeah, we’ve been getting into it. I just posted one today about Moaning Myrtle and what a creep she is.

Micah: I saw that. You’re not wrong.

[Eric laughs]

Julian: Yeah, so there’s lots of stuff there to unpack and discuss as well.

Micah: And I’m sure this probably plays a little bit into it, but Shirley Henderson, the actress who portrayed Moaning Myrtle, was very much older than Daniel Radcliffe at the time that she was portraying her character…

Julian: Yes.

Micah: … which adds to the creep factor just a little bit.

Julian: It does, and I purposefully left out the age thing because everyone’s like, “Well, she’s a ghost, and so she’s kind of suspended,” and I’m like, “Yeah, that doesn’t give me…” And I don’t think that the age piece is the end-all, be-all, because it’s still creepy that she just lurks in the prefects’ bathroom, watching people be in there. And so I thought age isn’t necessarily important, but for the movies, it does a thing as well where you’re like, “This makes the ick even more icky.”

Eric: I wonder how that’s going to be handled in the eventual HBO Max TV series.

Julian: I know. I know.

Micah: Well, they should make Moaning Myrtle a teenager, which is what she was when she was killed by the Basilisk.

Eric: That’ll be so weird, being so familiar with the movies.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Julian: And I also wonder how they’re going to handle some of the… because I think regardless of her age, it’s still disconcerting. In the book, she talks about Cedric stays in the bathroom until the bubbles are… there’s a lot of things that I’m like, “Eh, I mean, you being a 16-year-old girl still doesn’t take away a bit of the creep factor that’s going on here, girl. I’m still a little bit disconcerted.”

Micah: She’s also in the bathroom at the Wizarding World in Orlando, if you’ve been.

Eric: Oh, yeah, that too.

Julian: Yeah, and I don’t love it.

Eric: You know, she might be one of the very few ghosts that actually appreciates some things about being a ghost. Let her have that. Let her have her privacy breaking. [laughs]

Julian: I would be fine with it if it didn’t traumatize Harry, but he’s literally like, “I don’t go to that bathroom anymore because I’m traumatized by what I’ve experienced.”

Eric: Well, no, plenty of people… yeah, Hermione says the same thing too. So we’ll see. Interesting!

Micah: Funny enough, that bathroom comes up in this very chapter.

Julian: It does.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: How appropriate. Well, before we get to Chapter by Chapter, just a few reminders: If you love MuggleCast and want to help keep the show running better than Hermione’s innocent bystander impression, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By joining, you’ll get instant access to two bonus episodes every month, ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, a personal video “Thank you” from one of the four hosts, a physical gift delivered by owl each year, and so much more. And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official gear. And a little update on the merch store: We’ve lowered our prices on our overstock store, so visit MuggleCastMerch.com, click the overstock store link at the top, and then grab something for yourself, like our “19 Years Later” T-shirt.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Micah: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. Half-Blood Prince Chapter 6, “Draco’s Detour.”

Eric: The last time that we talked about this chapter specifically through a Chapter by Chapter segment was back on MuggleCast 384. I’m so sorry, guys, we had the best episode title, called “Nobody Screams for Ice Cream…”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Not anymore.

Eric: … as a result of Florean Fortescue’s disappearance. Yeah, sorry about that.

Micah: Including Florean.

Eric: That was back on September 17, 2018. Now, this Pensieve segment we’re about to do is a slightly longer clip, but I think you’ll find that the chaos is off the charts, and Julian, I really want your thoughts after we listen to it. Are you ready?

Julian: I’m ready.

Eric: Okay.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 384.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Eric: This is not the first time I’ve ever been confused in a Harry Potter book, but this is absolutely the biggest, most prevalent, pressing question that I have had about the series as a whole. What is U-No-Poo?

[Andrew and Kamilah laugh]

Kamilah: Oh my God. This is my favorite thing that they did.

Andrew: Kamilah, can you explain it? U-No-Poo?

Kamilah: I think it’s a kind of brilliant pun, because if you have a lot of anxiety and stress, you might actually be kind of constipated, etc., right? And so I think people are so stressed, they’re actually constipated over all of this, You-Know-Who, Voldemort being back.

Eric: But it’s not a product, right? It’s not a product.

Andrew: No, it is.

Kamilah: Oh, I don’t know. Is it a product?

Eric: You don’t see anybody buying it, right? I didn’t know if it was a product or what.

Kamilah: I feel like it’s probably both, which is actually even more brilliant. Not only is it this insane pun and sign to grab your attention, but also you could probably buy it to prank your friends.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Because that’s what confuses me.

Andrew: It’s a prank product, though. It’s one of their pranks. I wonder if Fred and George had dreams of feeding Voldemort U-No-Poo. U-No-Poo for You-Know-Who.

[Kamilah laughs]

Andrew: Give him a 30-year constipation.

Eric: Does it cause constipation or cure constipation? I’m so confused.

Andrew: Cause.

Kamilah: I feel like it’s got to cause it, yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: U-No-Poo. No poo. You will not poo.

Eric: You will not poo. How do…?

Andrew: Does Voldemort poop?

[Kamilah laughs]

Andrew: After he was brought back.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

[Julian laughs]

Eric: Once again, we want to thank – Julian, one of your fellow TikTokkers – Charlie Hopkinson, for the Gambon impression.

Julian: Beautiful.

Eric: Joining us, and then, of course, Michael Gambon himself there at the end with his appraisal of our maddening clip. What are your thoughts? Not to get too far ahead of ourselves…

Julian: We won’t go too deep in the weeds.

Eric: … but U-No-Poo: What is it and what does it do?

Julian: I think it was just a pun. I think they just were… because I think that they sell… it wouldn’t surprise me… I think it sounds like they’re selling laxatives.

Eric: Right.

Julian: Which feels more in line with the kind of jokes that they would sell than a constipation one, because we often see laxatives used as kind of gaffes…

Micah: Pranks.

Julian: Yeah, and pranks. So that would be my… I think that they were just saying, “Oh, you’re worried about this, but you actually should be worried about constipation,” and I think that’s right. That’s legitimate.

Eric: Well, and it downplays the severity of the situation for humor. It makes light of something that’s really otherwise terrifying.

Julian: Oh, 1,000%. And also, I think it provides people with the ability to… I mean, it’s interesting, right? Because Molly is like, “They’re going to be killed.” So she didn’t get the joke. It skipped her. But I do think that there’s a way that it adds a level of levity, and I think it also… the fact that they’re using the kind of iconography that the Ministry is using as well is also something that I think heightens the joke, and also, I think, to your point, brings down some level of anxiety, but also it’s good marketing because now everyone wants to go in and see what’s going on there.

Eric: Exactly. For a banner in front of the store, it’s attention-grabbing. It does everything right.

Julian: Yeah, absolutely.

Micah: I love where that conversation was going, though, too. The fact that we went from talking about this potential Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes product to whether or not Voldemort defecates.

Julian: Yeah, that was a leap, a jump, but I think we’re asking the hard-hitting questions.

Eric: That is MuggleCast’s commitment to the listeners for 20 odd years now. Well, we famously… our first slogan was, “No theory is safe,” as in from scrutiny.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So we’re going to continue our Chapter 6 discussion with Julian and Micah and me. So there’s a lot to do with Draco – after all, he’s the titular character of this chapter, “Draco’s Detour” – but first we’re going to spend some time with everyone else in this chapter. This is the chapter where Harry gets back to Diagon Alley, and this is a wonderful thing. We always love all the shops; we love his immersion into the wizarding world. But Diagon Alley is not quite the same, and in fact, at his birthday dinner, which takes place at the Burrow, it is revealed in a conversation between Lupin and Bill that both Florean Fortescue, of ice cream parlor fame, and Garrick Ollivander, of Ollivanders makers of fine wands since 382 BC, have both presumably been kidnapped, and they are no longer operating in business in Diagon Alley. So this is a shocker, especially… you tend to think of a proprietor, if the store has been there since 382 BC, you don’t expect it’s going to be whisked off the map all of a sudden. But Diagon Alley might not be the same as it used to be, guys, without these two pillars.

Micah: Right, and I think that’s exactly the point, because the safety nets are being removed. Diagon Alley, this bustling place of wizarding business, has really turned into a ghost town. The people who are there, their heads are down; they’re paranoid of any movement to their right or left. It kind of reminds me a little bit of the pandemic. And even the fun-loving ice cream man isn’t safe from Voldemort. And I think more broadly, it’s a continuation of this much darker tone that we’ve seen set right from the jump in Chapter 1, right? Where we’re with the other Minister, and we’re hearing all these stories of the different things that are happening both in the Muggle world and the wizarding world. And just in things that we’ve seen over these first couple of chapters, the way that our favorite characters are interacting with each other; they don’t trust each other to actually even be who they are, and now here we are in a place that we’re extremely familiar with, which has always been more or less a happy place to go, and it’s just anything but now.

Julian: And I think it also speaks volumes about why… and I want to preface this by saying I’m not excusing what Cornelius Fudge does in Order of the Phoenix, but I think that this particular reality speaks volumes as to why he did what he did. Because I think what we’re seeing from all of these people – the kind of tension, everyone being on edge – I think as a leader of government… and I think this is true both in the wizarding world, but just in general; you don’t want people to go to this place. And I also think it’s also why Voldemort didn’t want to be exposed for being back, because I think it made it a lot more difficult for him to be able to do all of these things fairly surreptitiously, because everyone is super on edge and hyperaware now, so all of the… I mean, I don’t think that you would have been able to take Fortescue and Ollivander and no one noticed, but maybe you could have attributed it to something else, but now everyone knows why they’re gone and what’s going on.

Eric: Ohh.

Julian: And so in some ways, it’s like both Voldemort and Fudge recognized the utility of keeping everyone in the dark about what was going on for different reasons, and we can see in this chapter why – for both of them, for again, for different reasons – why it was imperative that they did that, and what the implications of this kind of exposure actually means.

Eric: Yeah, I love that. And Micah, I love your call-out to Covid times, too, because the uncertainty in the air, and you can easily see how Voldemort or his people would also thrive on some of that energy. It’s certainly good for the Dementors, who are still attacking people randomly across the country. But it’s not a fun time to be in, and definitely to have to go out to get your schoolbooks, it should be a happy time, but you’re just… nobody’s looking at each other or talking, and it’s like, “We’re just going to get this done. This year maybe we don’t hang out for hours over at Quality Quidditch Supplies.”

Micah: Exactly.

Julian: It’s also an interesting thing for Harry, because so much of his existence of entering into the magical world has been such a drastic contrast to the Dursleys, right? And so for those of us who have gone to Universal, you walk into Diagon Alley and it’s a completely different world from the one that you left, intentionally. And now he walks in and it’s so desolate, and it’s not the 180 shift I think he’s used to when entering into the magical world, and I think that hits him very hard, because this was supposed to be a safe haven. I mean, even he notes walking into Leaky Cauldron that it’s empty for the first time. And I think for him, entering into the magical world is supposed to be such a sharp contrast to his Muggle life, and for the first time, it’s not, and I think that really drives home the point and the reality of what’s actually happening here.

Eric: Julian, it just reminded me the last time I went to my mall, my small town mall the last time, because it was about to be demolished, and nothing’s there. Nothing’s open. You’re walking around, it’s empty. And I’m remembering the time when that boy band came to FYE, Dream Street, it might have been? They were signing, and I just remember the lines out the door. But it wasn’t the same, and I love that you point it out as being like it’s this shift that historically has given Harry cheer, and now it’s just such a shocker for being the opposite.

Julian: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think you can feel it in the chapter that he’s so unsettled, because I think even hearing that Ollivander and Fortescue are no longer there is one thing… it’s one thing to hear about it; it’s another thing to experience it. And that also is very indicative of Covid times, right? It’s like, you hear about it happening on distant shores, and you’re like, “Oh, that’s really bad,” and then it happens here, and you’re like, “Oh, I actually didn’t have a scope of what was going on here, and now I really do feel what is real,” and I think that what else is true is that that’s why Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes hits very particularly, because it kind of captures the pathos of Diagon Alley of old in a lot of really interesting ways.

Eric: Yeah, it says to people, “You don’t need to be scared.” It’s just reminding people there’s an alternative, that they could also be having fun.

Julian and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I was going to bring this up later, but it reminds me very much of a Dumbledore quote that “Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.” And that’s really what that joke shop is; it’s the light in the darkness of Diagon Alley.

Eric: The beacon. I love that. I decided while reading this chapter to look up why the ice cream man, because it’s kind of an odd sort of choice for somebody to go missing, and I was reminded that this was actually a ghost plot. So this does not get answered, and it’s not something that is closed up within the seven books. But actually, originally, according to the author, Florean Fortescue was going to be the deliverer of news about the Deathly Hallows and information to Harry in Book 7, and the setup for this goes all the way back to Prisoner of Azkaban when Florean Fortescue was helping Harry with his homework on medieval wizards, and so he has some history knowledge. Eventually, the information that Florean was going to be delivering to Harry regarding the Deathly Hallows sometime in Book 7 – they were going to interact – ended up being given to the Grey Lady and Phineas Nigellus Black.

Julian: Interesting.

Eric: So when we read our Deathly Hallows – which is next, everybody, in about 26 weeks…

[Julian and Micah laugh]

Eric: … I’ll be interested to look at what that information coming from Phineas Nigellus Black is. Obviously, the Grey Lady, we really don’t get her story till the end of the book. But yeah, so both Ollivander, who has, we know from reading Book 7, devastating information about how wands really work, and Voldemort captured him to force out of him how to make a wand that won’t trip up in the presence of Harry’s, or to find the unbeatable wand. Florean Fortescue was going to be the person who has the secret knowledge of something ancient, like the Deathly Hallows. So that was really interesting.

Julian: That is interesting.

Eric: Yeah, and it fits the overall trajectory of we’ve just come from Slughorn’s hideout, where he talks about the Death Eaters kind of… he’s been avoiding them for a year, and so the Death Eaters really are casting a wide net and grabbing people that have something to do with either something that Voldemort’s already done, or something he’s planning to do, and these people are being nabbed or killed.

Micah: Right. Well, and speaking of Death Eaters or former Death Eaters, we get mention of Igor Karkaroff. RIP.

Eric: Yeah, he didn’t make it.

Micah: He could only elude capture for so long.

Julian: He lasted, what did they say, a year?

Eric: About a year.

Micah: Yeah, a decent amount. I mean, he fled post-Triwizard Tournament?

Julian: Yeah, right after the Triwizard Tournament, and then they found him in a shack. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I’m with Lupin; I’m surprised he lasted that long, especially because I’m like, this guy was someone who was enjoying a very particular kind of lifestyle, and then had to give it all up, because he just wasn’t going to… because I mean, he ultimately knew that he was going to be… this wasn’t going to end well for him, even if he went back to Voldemort. If I was Igor Karkaroff, I would be so livid at Lucius Malfoy, because Lucius got off in the same way that Igor did, but did not suffer nearly as many of the consequences. And if I was Igor Karkaroff, as I’m trying to escape capture, I’m cursing Lucius’s name, and when I found out that he went into Azkaban, I’m rejoicing a little piece, because it’s like, “Yeah, and now finally you get your comeuppance, because you and I did the same thing, and yet I’m the one on the run? How dare you?”

Eric: You know what? I wonder if that was the last thing Igor found out before he died, that Lucius was in prison, and he was like, “Hah.”

Julian: Absolutely.

Micah: There’s a nice little Daily Prophet article stuffed in the shack with him. So hopefully he found out.

[Julian laughs]

Eric: Yeah, clutched in his hands. He died with a smile on his face.

Julian: Absolutely, yeah.

Eric: Oh, man. So a couple other things that are happening that we get that we find out from Bill: Apparently, there’s stricter security measures going on at Gringotts, and it’s making it take up to five hours, or about five hours, for people to get their gold out of their own vaults at Gringotts. This is nuts. There’s only one wizarding bank for the entire wizarding world; it’s Gringotts, and five hours to access your account. They need online banking.

Julian: And somehow Bill can just go in and get Harry’s gold? I just… I have so many follow-up questions about…

[Micah laughs]

Julian: I’m like, “Does Harry have a list?”

Micah: I’m glad you do, because I do too.

Julian: Yeah, does Harry have a list of people who just get to go…? Because this isn’t the first time, admittedly, that the Weasleys have gone in. And is it because he’s a minor that they just have a list of adult people who can go…? How did this happen?

Eric: Yeah, yeah. The books are rife with this, though. There’s all these things. There’s mail order in the wizarding world. Sirius Black…

Julian: Yeah, when Sirius Black just gets him a Firebolt.

Eric: Gets him a Firebolt. Now, from his own vault, from Sirius’s own vault, but he’s on the run, so he did that somehow without saying it was him that was getting the money from his own vault.

Julian: From his vault!

Eric: So how is that…? Do you send an owl?

Julian: So much for the safety of Gringotts, honestly.

[Eric laughs]

Julian: I just feel… we’re told very early on that this place is the safest place other than Hogwarts, and yet somehow we’ve got Crookshanks going in and giving in the mail order for the broom, and they’re just like, “Who cares if you are a convicted felon who’s on the run right now? We’re still going to take the money out.” The wizarding world doesn’t care about safety.

Eric: Somebody likes cats and was just like, “Aw, where do you want to go? Vault 712? Okay!”

Julian: “Cool!”

Eric: “Let’s go down!”

Julian: Into one of the most ancient of vaults, so it’s not even like it’s just some weird vault that no one knew who it belonged to.

Eric: No, it’s right next to Dumbledore’s.

Julian: Crazy.

Eric: No, that’s nuts. I love this line of questioning, because it kind of is just one of those things. I mean, Bill works for Gringotts; he’s definitely…

Micah: That doesn’t matter. You can’t… think about a normal bank; you can’t just have somebody at the bank go into your vault. Probably even if you wanted to, you would need to provide some sort of permission or show up yourself. But I mean, if this happened under normal circumstances, Bill would definitely be in a lot of trouble. I know there’s a lot of other things that are happening at this time, so maybe it gets overlooked, but he could get fired for this if Harry said, “Wait, what do you mean you went into my vault?”

Julian: Yeah, and the first book, they have to have a key to get into the vault. Where is that key? Does anybody know?

Eric: Nobody knows where the key is, but I’m so glad you brought up the key, because Dumbledore probably had the key. Hagrid presents the key in Book 1 when they go to Gringotts and they meet Griphook and all of that. Hagrid has the key. I bet the key was… I bet Hagrid took it off Lily and James, [laughs] but that it’s been with Dumbledore all this time. I think that Dumbledore might have been the executor of their will, or somebody who was trusted enough to set affairs in order, so Dumbledore had the vault key. Now, at that point, if you have the vault key, if you’re a trusted individual, if you’re maybe not a co-account holder, but he’s Dumbledore; come on, he’s not going to be this huge con man. Maybe he then created this list of approved people who are in Harry’s orbit that we can trust to go and move his money even without telling him.

Julian: That does not make me feel good.

Micah: I don’t know, because can Bill just go into Sirius’s vault now that Harry…?

Eric: Well, everyone raids Sirius’s vault, apparently, if a cat can just go in and say, “I need this money.”

Micah: I just wanted to bring up something that Kyle said in the Discord, because it’s actually a really good point. He said, “To be fair, Gringotts not caring if Sirius is a convict sounds very much like the Swiss banks, which is how I always imagined it.”

Julian: Fair.

Eric: Yeah, they just care about the money. They’re earning interest on it.

Julian: And also, I feel like the goblins are kind of like, “Whatever y’all have going on over there in y’all’s world is really none of our business.”

[Eric laughs]

Julian: And honestly, I love that for them, because it’s true. And also, they are excluded until wizards want to include them, and so it’s like, “He’s not killing us, so whatever y’all have going on is really, really none of our business.”

Eric: I’ve got a poem for them. But also, the question that I had… this is a question that has to be answered a little quieter, but Bill just throws a lump of money, of Galleons, that is from Harry’s vault. We do not see him do that to his parents. He’s not like, “Hey, Mom and Dad, I got our money out too.” Do the Weasleys not have a vault at Gringotts? I’m wondering, do they…?

Julian: No, they do, because we see them go into it. In, I believe, Chamber of Secrets, they go into it.

Eric: Oh, goodness, you’re right. And Harry notices that it’s really modest.

Julian: Yeah, and Molly is kind of scraping around in the corners to get things out of it.

Eric: Yeah. Okay, thank you. I’d forgotten about that.

Julian: Yeah, and so they definitely have one. But in this chapter, though – and I noticed it probably for the first time – I’m like, “Oh, y’all are out here spending money as if it doesn’t… like there’s no problem.” I think it’s because Arthur got a raise, so now they’re kind of living, because Ron is going to get new robes – new robes! Like they’re going to have them made, and that was not… they were buying secondhand before this, so that was a good raise.

Eric: That’s such a good point.

Micah: Also, in fairness, they don’t have as many kids at Hogwarts anymore either.

Julian: That’s true. It’s really only the two now, so they’re just…

Eric: Yeah, fewer school books, fewer sets of… yeah.

Julian: And also, I’m wondering if Fred and George are sending money home.

Micah: I was going to say, yeah.

Julian: Because they’re loaded.

Eric: Molly should be charging them a storage fee because she’s storing all their old knickknacks in the Burrow.

Julian: Listen… and a finder’s fee. I’d be like, “You all invented so much of this stuff here in my house? You guys can give me a couple of the earnings.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah, like eminent domain. Like, it’s patented here, yeah.

Julian: Absolutely.

Micah: Molly seems like the kind of parent, though, that would not take it. She wouldn’t take the money.

Julian: Oh, she wouldn’t. No, no. But it’s so interesting because I noticed it today; I was like, oh, when she sends Ron, Harry, and Hermione to go to get new robes, and there’s no trepidation, they go and buy the books, and there’s seemingly no concern about the money part of it, which is such a drastic contrast to when they go to Diagon Alley in Chamber of Secrets, and everyone’s like, “This is going to be really expensive.” And to Micah’s point, there are less of them, but I also do think that they’re in a different position, because Arthur definitely got a new position, got a new job, that is much more high profile because of what the Death Eaters are doing, Fred and George are making a lot more money, and there are less kids at Hogwarts. So I think taken together, they’re in a much better financial position to be able to just go, and Molly seems very comfortable with this, in a way that suggests to me like she’s been waiting for this day her whole life.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: She should buy herself something.

Julian: I hope so.

Eric: Yeah! Aw. So let’s talk about some of the security arrangements, because they are actually going. They do actually all have to get stuff, as you mentioned. So I want to throw it back to our most recent discussions about Dumbledore and various goings-on; he’s active in pretty much all of these chapters. So you’ll recall a few chapters ago, after meeting Slughorn, Dumbledore leaves Molly and Harry at the Burrow and says he’s about to meet with Rufus Scrimgeour. We joked on that previous episode, Julian, of he shows up at Scrimgeour’s at like, 1:00 a.m., because it was super late at night and he just keeps dropping in on people. It’s tactless.

Julian: Doing whatever he wants.

Eric: Yeah, he does what he wants! He’s Dumbledore; what are you going to do? But we now can guess at what he ended up talking to Scrimgeour about, and it might have been these security plans. So we find that they have that good old Ministry driver car, a private car that’s been extended on the inside that was super fun from Chamber of Secrets, I think we were first introduced to that. But we also find out that Dumbledore specifically called off the Aurors. So they were originally going to have a team of Aurors just walking them around to do their shopping, and Dumbledore told Scrimgeour – we hear this from Hagrid – that Hagrid would be fine. And the interesting thing about this… so now we know that part of Dumbledore and Scrimgeour’s conversation was probably regarding Harry’s security, but aren’t Aurors actually better at protecting Harry Potter and his friends from dark corners than maybe Hagrid would be?

Julian: Yes.

Eric: Is Dumbledore putting Harry at risk here?

Julian: I think Dumbledore knows that, in a way that very few other people would, Hagrid would do anything for Harry. He would literally… and he reminds us in the first book, he would trust Hagrid with his life. But I think he’s counting on Hagrid being part-giant, thus impervious to a lot of spells. I think he’s counting on the fact that Hagrid is intimidating enough that people won’t mess with him, just in general. And I think he’s counting on the fact that Hagrid is someone who, again, would let anything befall him before it befell Harry, and I think that he’s counting on… and in a lot of ways, that is very on brand for Dumbledore. That’s kind of his vibe of just recognizing or putting faith and trust in his inner circle, rather than institutional people, which I get. I would have preferred the Aurors myself, but I can understand why he would have chosen Hagrid for this.

Eric: [laughs] That makes sense.

Micah: I tend to agree. Hagrid, though, as we’ve seen… the trio are able to elude him.

Eric: Easily.

Micah: I think part of the challenge of having somebody along the lines of Hagrid is that Hagrid has a soft spot, first and foremost, for all three of them, so he might be much more easily fooled by suggestion. In this case, they just use the Invisibility Cloak to get around him, and even Molly is suspicious, right? When they return of where they’ve been; Hagrid is really none the wiser at the end of the day. But I do think having Ministry officials makes more sense, but perhaps Dumbledore also thinks that an attack or any other kind of attempt in public is just not a reality right now. Something’s not going to happen in Diagon Alley; probably more likely to happen somewhere else. But even more than that, where my head is at right now with Dumbledore is that he’s just had enough of the Ministry; they had their chance to play nice. And I talked about this in the last episode: He’s a man on a mission. He’s got no time to play games anymore. He’s got his burnt hand, he’s got only limited time, and he’s got to get done everything he needs to get done in the time that he’s got left.

Eric: Yeah, the hand reminds me he’s cursed. He’s cursed. He actually… presumably, it will actually take his life, I think is what Snape tells him at some point.

Julian: And I also think that he is, I think to Micah’s point, so untrusting of the Ministry in any capacity, and I think he’s not willing to take a chance, even if it seemingly is with Harry’s best interests at heart. I don’t think he trusts the Ministry to actually have Harry’s best interests at heart. I think he fundamentally believes that they will screw it up somehow, and so he’s like, “I know I personally – me, Dumbledore – can trust Hagrid, and that’s who needs to go, because I don’t think that you all are actually as committed to this.” And we also don’t know who’s in league with Voldemort, who’s not…

Eric: Oh.

Julian: … there’s just a lot of uncertainty going on here, and Dumbledore is also a control freak, so he’s not going to leave things to chance in that regard.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that hit the nail on the head. Ultimately, Aurors, who do they answer to? The Minister. They don’t answer to Dumbledore. They don’t…

Micah: Some of them do. Tonks and Mad-Eye and Kingsley, they answer to Dumbledore.

Eric: Hey, fair point, fair point. But we know Scrimgeour has been trying to get Harry recruited for propaganda stuff, and Dumbledore is adamant about not even letting that meeting take place between Harry and Scrimgeour. So if the Aurors are walking them around Diagon Alley, what’s to say they haven’t been ordered to take them down an alley where Scrimgeour is waiting just to make the pitch? Even if it’s just for five minutes, that’s something that the Aurors could do that Dumbledore… they’d be ordered to do it, and Dumbledore couldn’t prevent it, so he’s kind of ruling that out. He’s making that no longer a possibility too.

Micah: I also think it’s also just a level of comfort for Harry to have Hagrid there.

Eric: It’s comforting to know you can just waltz right by somebody to evade them, who’s protecting you.

Micah: Yeah, that’s that big and… yeah.

Julian: And I also think… I mean, I think this is one of the few moments where we see, I think, Dumbledore trying to make Harry feel as normal as he possibly can in the situation by virtue… and I mean, and it’s a beautiful callback, right? And even Hagrid acknowledged it; it’s like old times because Hagrid is there with him when he goes to Diagon Alley the first time, he’s there with him in Chamber of Secrets, and so that there is a way in which this feels… in the midst of everything going on in Diagon Alley, all the change, there is this kind of anchor that is Hagrid that feels very comforting to Harry, I think…

Micah: Agree.

Julian: … while also serving as, I mean, meaningful protection. I mean, Hagrid is gullible and aloof, but he is also impervious to a lot of things that even Aurors aren’t impervious to.

Eric: No.

Julian: And he’s a massive imposition. I think if I’m a Death Eater, I’m not as convinced about my ability to take him on versus some random other fully wizard person.

Eric: I think those are all good points. I wanted to touch on, once again, this sign outside of Fred and George’s shop. Now, Julian, you were mentioning earlier, Molly’s reaction to this is basically “They’ll be murdered in their beds,” for having this sign that kind of pokes fun at You-Know-Who; it does a pun on his name. And I don’t think that she’s hyperbolizing; I think that she really thinks that these are the stakes. These are what they are opening themselves up to; they’re making themselves vulnerable, and maybe the subject of drawing Voldemort’s ire. So what I wanted to ask you, especially as a professor of social justice and your extensive history teaching on the matter, what is the importance of what it is that Fred and George are doing here, in poking fun? In kind of deflating a little bit of the balloon of this dark place that everyone is in?

Julian: Sure. I want to make two points, and then… so the first is I think Molly’s reaction is totally reasonable, because we have to remember that she is also the sister of two men who died in the first wizarding war, and so there’s a lot of trauma that she and all the adults in the wizarding world have not quite dealt with. And so I think in her mind, it’s like, “Keep your head down, don’t make any ripples, and maybe you’ll survive, unlike my brothers.” And I think when she looks at Fred and George, I think she sees her two brothers a lot, which is why she’s so hard on them. And I think that this scares her to death, because she’s just like, “This feels like history repeating itself.” To your question, Eric, I think humor plays a really big part in this, and I think Micah’s invocation of Covid really makes me think of a lot of the art that came out of that really desolate time where a lot of people were… we saw a lot of really creative things coming up for people, and I think that there’s a way that everyone leans into certain… they lean into certain things, like humor, like art, to try to make sense of things, but also to kind of pull themselves out of the space that they can so easily find themselves in. And so I feel like it’s really important… I mean, when we think about, in the days of old, they used to have troops go and travel around with the service people to do shows for them, to kind of try to raise morale…

Eric: Yes!

Julian: … because it was so important that they didn’t feel completely isolated and completely desolate in the spaces that they were in. And in some ways, I think that that’s kind of what Fred and George are doing, and I think there’s a way that everyone is looking for different means to navigate this particular moment, and I think that humor is one of them. I mean, there’s a reason why that shop is so packed, right? And I feel like there’s a way in which the desire for something that is even remotely hopeful is it leads people to go to these places, and I think Fred and George have also been people who, for better or for worse, take very little actually seriously, and in some ways, I don’t think that they did this intentionally. I think that this is just who they are, and I think that who they are is very helpful to everyone else.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: Right. It’s a bit of laughing in the face of danger.

Julian: Exactly, yeah.

Micah: And they’ve not known any different. I mean, even go back to what they did at the end of Order of the Phoenix, right? Defying Umbridge, defying the Ministry, and escaping Hogwarts, or departing Hogwarts the way that they did. And here they are now with their joke shop in Diagon Alley, and part of me doesn’t even think that they care all that much about Voldemort at the end of the day. And truth be told, Voldemort doesn’t care about the sign either, and the truth is, he probably never even found out about it. But this goes back to what I was saying earlier, of this joke shop being this beacon of light. Julian, what you were saying about how packed it is, right? It’s a small thing in the grand scheme, but it’s giving people a little bit of hope, it’s giving people a little bit of levity in an otherwise very, very dark time, just from the first couple of chapters and what we’ve seen so far.

Julian: And it’s crazy because I think, to your point, Micah, they don’t… they were really surprised about the success of their Shield Hats, and they’re like, “Oh, we just made these as kind of a gag, and now the Ministry is just buying them in droves.” And it’s like, “Yeah, because you all are in the middle of a war.” But it doesn’t resonate with them in a way, and I think that’s both the folly of youth; I think it’s the privilege of being a part of the pure-blood class that’s kind of like, you know that at the end of the day, whatever Voldemort is up to is probably not going to touch you. But I also think it’s just Fred and George being Fred and George.

Micah: Right.

Julian: And I really love… I remember laughing at that and thinking, “You all know that bad things are afoot, right?”

[Micah laughs]

Julian: And they’re just like, “It’s crazy that they like these hats! And so we’ve expanded it, not because we want to protect people, but because it’s really good at making us money.”

Eric: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting with the capitalist lean there, of, “We’re making a ton of money! It’s raking it in!”

Julian: Exactly.

Eric: I also, though, really see this shop and this chapter as being the moment that Fred and George – coupled with everything that was said about Umbridge last year – this is their Gryffindor moment. Because ultimately, what they’re doing is brave. They are putting a target, a bright beacon, target, on themselves for everything that they are doing here. And in fact, arming the Ministry employees, who otherwise wouldn’t know how to cast a Shield Charm, is something that goes up and it hurts Voldemort’s cause actually a lot more than it otherwise would. They are being so brave… to crack a joke is maybe their natural instinct, but that’s also bravery when the stakes are high, when people are being disappeared from their ice cream shop, for, I don’t know, selling peanut butter raspberry ice cream. Who doesn’t…? Did they offend the Dark Lord by selling pistachio or not selling pistachio? Was he really a big fan, and he didn’t have any… he’s like, “Florean, you’re coming with me”?

Julian: “Get him.”

Eric: Yeah, so you just don’t know what’s going to set off Voldemort and his cause, so there’s so much uncertainty. And yet, here Fred and George are with their shop. I understand the comment of they only have one natural state, and it’s this; they’re just being themselves, but there’s bravery in it.

Micah: There’s a ton of creativity here, though, too, and I think this shop is also… it’s validation. It’s validation for all of the antics we’ve seen them get up to over the course of these first couple of books, right? And in some part we see Molly start to soften a little bit when she actually steps foot in the shop and sees how successful they are and some of the products that they’ve made – Hermione comments on it as well – and so I just think part of this is also showing you don’t have to be booksmart all the time. There’s other ways to go about being successful, whether it’s in the wizarding world or whether it’s in the real world.

Eric: They’re dropouts.

Julian: But I think they are booksmart. I think clearly… even just reading about the idea of these patented daydream situations, I’m like, “That sounds so intense.”

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Julian: I think for me, it’s like, they are very booksmart, but the way that they choose to display it is not for the purposes of being superior to everyone else. They are actually trying to use it to uplift in a way that I think is interesting, because I think some of what they’re doing is crazy. I mean, the magic is really intense. Even just the telescope that punches Hermione, right?

[Micah laughs]

Julian: The fact that they can’t get the bruise out, that Mrs. Weasley is trying so hard with everything that she knows about that, and they can’t, and then they just have a little salve because they’re like, “Well, we’re testing it on ourselves, so we have to figure it…” There’s a way in which I think we really underestimate how smart Fred and George are, because they don’t necessarily do well on the more formalized things, but they actually are doing really advanced and intricate magic. I mean, the transfiguration of the Canary Clusters, right? Of just you’re turning someone into a bird, and then they turn back? I mean, when we think about what it is that people can actually do when they’re learning it at school versus what they’re able to pull off, it’s very, very impressive.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think we were agreeing last week that… their OWL results come in, and Molly says that Ron got more than Fred and George combined. I think that that’s not reasonable anymore. Seeing all they… because even if you… you’d have to deliberately put the wrong answer. They clearly know enough about magic. I understand people don’t test well sometimes, but for them both to not have gotten seven OWLs is deliberate malfeasance on Fred and George’s part. Clearly they…

Julian: Yeah, they just don’t care.

Eric: They don’t care.

Julian: I think that at the end of the day, it’s like, they know that whatever getting an Outstanding OWL means has no… it doesn’t matter for them, because at the end of the day, they know they’re going to make that ghost – [laughs] that ghost shop – that joke shop no matter what, and so their future for them is very set. From Goblet of Fire on, they’re like, “This is what we’re going to do. We’re testing out our products. We’ve been making all of this stuff.” They have the path, and so it’s like, “Well, why even care?” If you know you’re going to do that, you know you’re going to leave school, which is when they’re going to… and they left in their OWL year. Or no, no, they left the year after. But at that point, you’ve already figured out… if you are going to blackmail government officials to get money owed for the joke shop, you’re not worried about your OWLs.

Eric: That’s fair.

Micah: For sure. And I like what Sam says in our Discord: “They’re engineers,” which is a cool way to look at it.

Eric and Julian: Yeah.

Eric: And it just shows that everyone has a place, something to offer.

Micah: Absolutely.

Eric: Even people who dropped out, chose to leave, for whom school was not their primary thing.

Julian: Yeah. And it speaks to the rigidity of the magical world as well that we are really invited to see them up until this moment as not necessarily being successful, and we don’t really honor their entrepreneurial innovations because it doesn’t quite fit into the mold of what we’re expecting. And Molly is the person who’s inviting us to have these thoughts, and at the end of the day, she’s wrong, and I think she has to sit there and grapple with that reality that she is wrong about all of this. And the space that it comes from, her desire for that, I think is a good place; I think she just wants them to be comfortable and do better than they do, and all of that very parental stuff. But I think at the end of the day, Fred and George know who they are, and they know what they want, and they go about getting it, and there’s something really amazing about that in the face of a parent who is very adamant about the path you should take.

Eric: And Fred and George did end up getting one of the four possible adult wizarding professions for themselves, right?

[Julian laughs]

Eric: You’re either a professor, you either work for the Ministry, maybe even as a cop or an Auror, or you’re a proprietor of a shop in Diagon Alley. They ended up doing the last one anyway!

Julian: They did it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they got out of the Hogwarts-to-Ministry pipeline and are making significantly more money than probably anyone else in their family. They probably are the most successful Weasleys for generations.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it also doesn’t make them any safer, being a proprietor, because two of the proprietors have been taken! So there’s not… in whatever line they were originally supposed to trot, I think Molly is coming to terms with, and fully understands. She’s acknowledged at this point that, “Okay, they’re a little off the beaten path, but they’re doing really incredible stuff.” Hermione sees it too. Harry is just happy to get everything for free. [laughs]

Julian: And honestly, I don’t blame him. I love a good sale, especially when it’s for free.

Eric: Well, I appreciate that about their honoring… they say, “You gave us our startup loan,” and that’s not strictly what… I mean, he did, but he still would pay for this stuff.

Julian: Yeah. I also think that they’re drastically underestimating how wealthy Harry is…

[Eric and Julian laugh]

Julian: … that guy, he could buy this place a couple times over. But I do appreciate how loyal they are to his loyalty to them, I think, and that they’re willing to be generous and actually adamant. Like, “Your money is no good here.”

Eric: Yeah, yeah. All right, well, after talking about all that really happy stuff, let’s talk about… let’s slither on over to Madam Malkin’s, where Draco Malfoy is being fitted for robes. And the section of this document I put is, “Why does Malfoy suck so badly?”

[Julian laughs]

Eric: Because it’s not a moment of him seeing the trio have entered before he utters a really nasty racial slur, calling Hermione, and says that she smells. He’s always talking about… he must be super sensitive to smell; he’s always talking about how Ron’s family smells and Mudbloods smell and it’s a whole thing. But it’s foul. It’s bad.

Julian: When I got to this point, I was like, “Oh, this…” I’m going to say these words, and I mean them in the most condescending way possible: poor Malfoy. Because I think at the end of the day, both he and his mom are just like, “We really used to be amazing. The people used to just think that we were the best, and now we are absolutely disgraced.” And one thing about people in that position is that they are going to try to find whatever way they can to prove that they still got it, and I feel like what we’re seeing here is them trying to be like, “And we’re still prejudiced, even though none of it means anything anymore…”

[Eric laughs]

Julian: “… because my husband and this kid’s dad is an Azkaban, but we can still hold these views, and we can still cosplay superiority, even though we’re not actually superior.” And it’s a moment of “Thou dost protest too much.” You’re doing… you’re overplaying your hand. And when you juxtapose what Draco does here with what Lucius does in Flourish and Blotts in Chamber of Secrets, where Lucius is just so coolly being like, “God, you Weasleys are really garbage,” and it’s so not at all having to prove anything, to this moment where they’re like, “Remember that time you were Muggle-born?”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Julian: It’s so aggressive. It’s so aggressive, and it just strikes me as “You are working so hard to try to reclaim a thing that you have lost.” And I don’t feel bad for them, I don’t feel bad for them at all, but I do think that a lot of what motivates what is happening here is the fact that they are both trying to cosplay the versions of themselves that existed before Lucius got locked up.

Eric: Wow. So there’s a huge amount of denial there, and the fact that Malfoy goes straight for the most foul thing that comes to his mind is that level of desperation on his part.

Julian: Yes, exactly. It’s like, “Who am I the most better than here? Who do I feel the most superior to? It’s not the other pure-blood wizard who just happens to be poor, and it’s not the famous dude who’s the savior of all time right now. It’s this Muggle-born girl who has bested me in everything, but nobody knows that, so I’m just going to go for her because she’s the lowest-hanging fruit to make me feel better about the circumstance that we’re in right now.”

Eric: This blows my mind. This utterly blows… the analysis of why he picked Hermione to make the dirty comment about blows my mind.

Micah: It totally does, though. And you bringing up the scene with Lucius in Flourish and Blotts in Chamber of Secrets, I’m a little bit maybe more drawn to the movie moment here where Lucius says, “Manners, Draco.”

Julian: Yes, exactly.

Micah: And there’re no effing manners in this scene with Narcissa.

Julian: No, yeah.

Micah: I mean, it’s complete opposite.

Julian: Yeah, because it’s like you can have a level of insidious decorum when you know that you’re untouchable, but it just makes me think of the moment in the graveyard where Voldemort is like, “And now I can touch him,” and he touches Harry, but Voldemort has done that to the Malfoys. They were so untouchable until he came back, and now Lucius is in Azkaban, they are absolutely disgraced, and they’re trying to walk around with an air of who they were, and they are not those people anymore. And when you’re in that position… and Draco is young and stupid, and he’s always been more reckless than I think… he’s never had the grace that his father has had, in terms of how he displays his prejudice, and I think his insecurity about how much better Hermione is than him in literally everything always jumps out, and that’s where Lucius is… even, again, in Chamber of Secrets, Lucius is like, “It’s embarrassing that you are so off-put by this girl of much lower birth than you. You’ve really got to find a way to lock that down.” And this moment, it all jumps out again, because that’s all he has; he doesn’t have anything else. And the Malfoy name means… it’s mud, it’s mud now, and I think that both he and Narcissa are reeling, because neither of them were conditioned to ever live a life where this was going to be the case.

Micah: Yeah, that’s so true.

Eric: Yeah, and who should walk in but the people who are most responsible for their fall from grace?

Julian: Exactly, exactly. And then…

Micah: Well, they’re responsible for their fall from grace.

Julian: That’s true.

Micah: I know what you’re saying.

Eric: Well, they’re not going to see it that way, though. They’re not going to see it that way.

Micah: No, and I think I’m a little bit disappointed in Harry in this situation. I know Narcissa is the adult in the room outside of Madam Malkin, but I really expected more of Harry. I know he gets triggered by Narcissa because she looks so much like her sister – we’re told that explicitly – and so it’s him really seeing Bellatrix. It’s him being triggered by her murdering Sirius at the end of Order of the Phoenix. So there’s that at play, but just the way that he chooses to interact with Narcissa, I honestly expected a lot more from Harry.

Eric: I mean, Harry gets a good line, and he calls Lucius “your loser husband,” and then they’re having a banter, they’re doing a banter thing, Narcissa is talking about how… Narcissa, by the way – don’t overlook this – cards on the table, flat out is talking straight of Voldemort’s plan to kill Dumbledore by the end of this year, and to have that be a done thing. She straight up says to Harry, “Oh, Dumbledore won’t always be around to protect you.” It’s like, we know that she knows about this from “Spinner’s End,” that it’s actually been a source of grief for her, the fact that Dumbledore is supposed to die, because he wants her kid to do it. So she’s taken this thing that would normally give her pause and is flaunting it and turning it around, and being like, “I know something you don’t know,” or like, “Dumbledore won’t always be there to protect you.” And what’s Harry to do? He’s just able to crack a… he doesn’t understand the deeper implications of what’s going on, so he cracks a joke. He’s like, “Oh, I guess Dumbledore’s not around here!” I love Harry in this chapter, in this moment, and the fact that he’s able to kind of pick further at “your loser husband.” Nobody a year ago, not even Harry, would have felt right in calling Lucius a loser, because he had so much going for him, right? Fudge was in his pocket, all this other stuff, so that “loser” might reinforce the fact to them, to their faces, that “Hey, you guys have lost a lot of social status. Your husband’s a loser, and I’m going to tell you that,” and I think it’s… I don’t know. I kind of like Harry in this moment.

Julian: I think Harry is behaving, for the first time in a long time, like the 16-year-old that he actually is. I feel like our expectations of him are a little bit higher because he’s been tasked with doing a lot of very adult things. I think that in this moment, he’s kind of… I think he’s feeling the opposite of what the Malfoys are feeling. He’s feeling outrageously empowered, because he’s like, “You have no power, and isn’t that something? And I am the Ministry darling.” I think he feels very secure. I’m not justifying what he said, although I do love him just being like, “Dumbledore’s not here right now! What about it?”

Eric: “Come at me, dude.”

Julian: Which I also think is kind of stupid of him and reckless…

[Eric laughs]

Julian: … because I’m like, “Dude, Narcissa could actually kick your butt, and I think you’re underestimating how good she probably is at dueling, but you’re feeling yourself, so fine.” But I do think that he’s… I think this is a moment where we’re seeing, in many ways, the tables turned, because he is behaving like Draco, like the Draco of old.

Eric: Ohh.

Julian: Outrageously arrogant, super cocky, kind of like, “I’m untouchable.” And whether he feels it or not is one thing or the other, but I think a lot of the way that he’s operating is with that air of confidence and self-assuredness that we normally see Draco use, like when we see Draco in Goblet of Fire when they’re after the Death Eaters’ attack, and he’s literally running around being like, “My dad’s the one out there messing with those Muggles,” and you’re like, “Dude, that’s so stupid and reckless. What a thing to say.” And I think that that’s where Harry is at right now. He’s like, “Oh, yeah, so now what do you want to do? You want to fight? Let’s do it.”

Eric: Man.

Micah: Yeah, and what I find so fascinating about this particular moment, as we sit here in “Draco’s Detour” in Chapter 6 of Half-Blood Prince, is that Narcissa is going to do a complete 180 by the time we get to Deathly Hallows.

Julian: Yep.

Micah: To think about her and the way that she’s behaving towards Harry right now, versus where we are by the time we get towards the tail end of Deathly Hallows, is just drastically different.

Julian: The dissent that she takes.

Eric: Well, yeah, there have been some cracks in the facade, but this is only the beginning, and by the end of the next year, or by the end of Book 7, that’s all going to wash away, and her role as protector of Draco, as mother to Draco, is laid bare, is the number one thing she chooses for her identity; not the closeness with the Death Eaters, not her loyalties or allegiances to the Dark Lord or pure-blood-ism or whatever. So there’s going to be this moment where she is so, so, so vulnerable that she needs something from Harry, and what she needs from Harry is comfort in knowing that her son is still alive, and so that moment is the entire crux of the whole series, when a mother lies to protect, to save. But at the moment, they’re still seeing themselves as adversaries. And you know what’s interesting, is doesn’t Harry freak out when he sees Andromeda in Deathly Hallows?

Julian: Yep. She looks like Bellatrix.

Eric: Again, because she looks so much like Bellatrix. Yeah, so Harry has definitely got a problem with their face. [laughs] But he’s still… he’s not going to soon forget that, or that familial… that very strong familiar resemblance, but I think by the end, Harry even understands where Narcissa is coming from.

Julian: And I also think that at this moment, despite all that Voldemort has done to their family, I think that they’re externalizing out a lot of the blame to Harry, to Dumbledore, to other people…

Eric: Right.

Julian: … and it’s like, no, Voldemort let Lucius go to Azkaban, because he broke out all those other people, and he’s letting Lucius rot. And so it’s like, “You aren’t blaming the right person.” And I think by the time we get to Deathly Hallows, she’s blaming the right person, and so she’s like, “Okay, I’m attributing all of what I’m feeling, the negative feelings that I’m having, to the person to whom all this is the… he’s the reason.”

Micah: Right.

Julian: And so I think in this moment they’re still very… their loyalty to Voldemort is leading them to externalize, like any good cult member. It’s never the cult leader’s fault; it’s everyone else’s fault. And I think once we get to Deathly Hallows, she’s like, “Oh, no, no, no. It’s your fault, and I don’t want this anymore.”

Micah: Yeah. Well, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that he brings the horror of it all right into their home, literally into their home, and that plays a major factor. The last thing I’ll just say about this interaction between the trio and Narcissa and Draco is I think for the Malfoys, they’re also really feeling the pressure of the moment and everything that has been tasked to Draco to have to accomplish, and so the very last thing they want to deal with is running into Harry, Ron, and Hermione in a shop in Diagon Alley, and I think they’re letting the weight of the moment really weigh heavily on them.

Julian: Yeah, I don’t think they… and I feel like they are not… well, they’re not used to this, right? And I always tell my students; I’m like, “There’s a difference between being a Death Eater when Voldemort is gone and being a Death Eater when he’s back and calling the shots.” And I think the Malfoys really enjoyed the former, because it was a power play amongst the people who cared about that kind of thing, and so now it’s actually meaningful in a way that does not line up with their own expectations, with their own desires. And Lucius was the one who pretty much was the face of that particular part of their life, and now he’s gone, and it’s fallen to Draco. And I think Draco, in theory, wanted to be a Death Eater under the auspices that it was going to be more like a social club, hang out with friends with a tattoo, versus, “Oh, you want me to kill the most powerful wizard of all time with no assistance.” That’s a very different thing. And so some of this, I think, also to Micah’s point, is the stress of what he’s been tasked to do, and what Narcissa has to support him in doing.

Micah: Definitely.

Eric: Fair enough. So unfortunately, this mommy/son duo is split up on the back half of the chapter, because while in Weasleys’ Wizarding Wheezes, the trio happens to see that Draco has snuck off. So they dust out the old cloak that barely fits them, they sneak past Hagrid with their ankles probably showing, but Hagrid is whistling something – he doesn’t care – and they find Draco is going down Nocturn Alley. Here’s a question: Why was it necessary for Draco to have the conversation that he has with Mr. Borgin, of Borgin and Burke, without Narcissa being present? This is a change with the movie, too. In the movie in this moment, a lot of Death Eaters are right there with Draco in this shop, but here it’s all him. And speaking strictly from a book place, my question, again, is why did he get rid of Narcissa? Because Narcissa has a vested interest in helping Draco succeed, and her presence in the shop might actually help convince Mr. Borgin to help him.

Julian: I didn’t actually expect to do this, but it’s the third or fourth time that I’ve drawn a parallel to Chamber of Secrets. But you’ll remember…

Micah: You’re connecting the threads, as we like to say.

Julian: Yeah, and this moment is a very similar moment to when Lucius goes and… in the very beginning of Chamber of Secrets when Harry falls into Knockturn Alley and he’s selling off all his stuff.

Eric: And that cabinet.

Julian: And the cabinet, yeah. And I think that he… this is a moment where I think we as a reader are invited to see the parallels between Draco and Lucius, and I also think that Draco is like, “I’m grown.” Because he even says to Narcissa in Madam Malkin’s, “You don’t need to be with me while I’m getting my robes redone,” because he’s trying to jettison her so that he can go and do his plan. I also think that he realizes the danger of what he’s doing, and I think he knows his mom will try to stop him, or he perceives that she will. And I think it’s the… we just finished reading Half-Blood Prince in my class, and so a lot of what I’ve been talking about is the folly of youth and how I think a lot of what Draco is doing, both with Narcissa, ultimately with Snape, is like, “I can do this, and I don’t need anyone’s help,” and I told my students; I was like, “Think about yourself at 16 years old. So much of your existence is like, ‘I know what I’m doing. I can do it myself.'” And I think he doesn’t want her there because he doesn’t think he needs her there, and I think it’s kind of like watching a kid walk around in his dad’s clothes, trying to cosplay Lucius in Borgin and Burkes to do this whole thing as a direct callback to what we see Lucius doing in Chamber.

Eric: Pushing Borgin around.

Julian: Yeah, exactly. And I feel like there’s a really direct parallel of Draco trying to do that very same thing.

Micah: Totally. Yeah, and I’m wondering, too… we know that she knows, but does he know that she knows about the plan?

Eric: About the plot. Yeah, he could just genuinely be wanting to shield from having to explain it.

Micah: Keep her out of it.

Eric: That’s interesting.

Micah: I don’t know. Maybe we find out more later on; it’s been a while since I’ve reread this book. But I wonder, too, if some of it may be wanting to protect his mother from what’s going on? We know that he has definitely a closer relationship with her than he does with Lucius.

Eric: Well, and there’s that folly, though, again, like Julian was saying. The idea that Draco thinks that his mom might not know is like, “Oh, sweet summer child.” Of course she knows!

[Micah laughs]

Eric: She’s attuned to this! She’s going to… she has one job in this world, and it’s to care about you, you dummy.

Julian: She’s hatched a whole plan.

Eric: And I think there’s probably some dialogue at the beginning of “Spinner’s End,” when Bellatrix and Narcissa are arguing that she’s not supposed to know about the plan, or the plan is revealed, and “Keep it secret, don’t tell Snape,” this, that, the other thing. So yeah, it’s possible that Draco doesn’t know that Narcissa knows.

Julian: Yeah, yeah. And I think there’s a way… I think again, it’s… also, Draco is an only child. He’s the only boy, in a very patriarchal, old moneyed family. When dad is gone, you’re the man of the house, and so you have to kind of play that role, and I think part of that role is you’ve got to keep everything close to the chest, and you deal with your problems, and I think that that’s what he’s trying to do here. Little does he know that Narcissa is not dumb, and very adept at being like, “Okay,” and has already hatched an entire plan, has already set so many things in motion, literally made Snape make a death pact for Draco. And it’s kind of funny that Draco thinks that somehow she hasn’t… that he’s doing all of this without a backup plan being in place, because he thinks that… I mean, again, it goes back to him just being young and stupid and thinking, “I’ve got this, and my mom could never understand,” which feels very 16-year-old boy, despite being tasked with doing a very adult thing.

Eric: Well, we get on Harry for not bringing his friends in too often, but this is exactly what… Harry had that whole thing last year where he didn’t invite people in very much. This is what Draco is doing in this year, because he continuously rebuffs Snape – again, another adult with a darn good vested interest in helping you succeed…

Julian: Yes.

Eric: … and he will not accept any help from Snape. He’s like, “No, old man, you’re gross. Leave me alone. I don’t need your help.” When Snape could get this done tomorrow! [laughs] He’s not going to, but…

Julian: Right. And also, could die. When Snape says to you, “I took an Unbreakable Vow,” it’s like, “At this point, death is the end result for both of us if we don’t succeed. So now we both have… our lives are tied to one another.” I don’t know about y’all, but for me, I’m like, “That’s all I need to hear.” I would be so excited about the prospect of someone who’s not only tied into this with me, but also better at magic than me, saying, “Just let me help you do this.” I’d be like, “Yeah, let’s go.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Maybe he needs to prove it…

Julian: If I’m Draco and I’m crying in the bathroom, clearly we’re having some issues. I think it’s okay… but also, again, this is the 16-year-old boy of it all, where it’s like, “I’ve been tasked with doing this thing, and I’m going to do it, and I don’t need anybody’s help.” And that feels very 16 to me.

Eric: Yeah, this is just… this is this whole book, is it becoming real for Draco.

Julian: Yes, exactly.

Eric: Everything his… the views that his parents espouse, what that looks like, when you have a whole cult practicing it and bringing that negative energy into the world, what it looks like to be one on one, to have the Dark Mark tattooed on your arm and to feel his presence or whatever when he wants you to. Terrifying stuff that was glamorized because of the specific way that Lucius and Narcissa – to your point, Julian – behaved after Voldemort fell, about it being this great old club that they used to be in together, when the result is actually terrifying. Draco is not prepared for it, he doesn’t expect it, and so watching him in Borgin and Burke throw his weight around like he’s Lucius is definitely him walking the walk in order to maybe force a feeling upon himself that he can do this, or is his own man. It’s very interesting. So one final thing as we wrap up our chapter discussion, but that whole scene in Borgin and Burke happens, and the trio is listening with Extendable Ears. They quick get out of the way, and then after Draco exits, Hermione goes in and makes a complete bungle of any kind of reconnaissance that she was going to do. Guys, I just… we’ve all read this. What was Hermione thinking?

Julian: She wasn’t.

Micah: No.

Eric: Is she being a Gryffindor right now? Because this is very Gryffindor-y, right? Maybe putting yourself in the lion’s den?

Julian: Oh, yeah. And just like… I mean, this is probably the most Gryffindor we see her in a minute, because she just dives right in. And she’s like, “We’ll just figure it out. I’ll figure it out on the fly.” And I’m like, “You don’t have the social skills for this, girl.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You don’t have the street smarts.

Julian: You don’t have the street smarts to figure out… you have no idea… this is Hermione’s first time in Knockturn Alley. You’ve never been to Borgin and Burkes. You have no sense of any of the things… and for most of your time, you’ve been really riding hard on girls who act the way that you’re trying to act, and that’s why you don’t know how to do it. Because let me tell you something: You want to know who could have pulled this off? Lavender Brown. Lavender Brown could have gone into that shop and she’d have nailed the girlfriend, like, “Oh, I just want to pick up…” She could have nailed it. And it would have been annoying, but it would have been much more convincing than whatever secret agent Hermione double-O zero showed up trying to do.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: That’s an interesting take. The double-O… yeah, I won’t even say what I was going to say. I thought you were going to say Fleur Delacour could have handled this, because I think she also…

Julian: Oh, yeah, yeah. She would have just turned on a little bit of that Veela, and boom.

Eric: Yeah. No, it’s admirable, though, right? I mean, Hermione… so they were originally kind of hesitant to buy into what Harry was saying, that we have to follow Malfoy, but now Hermione, I guess, has seen enough that she’s convinced that he was up to something, or that she does need… can play a role here to help the cause.

Julian: Yeah, and I think… I mean, I get why she did it; I just think what’s clear is it’s like, “Okay, Hermione, your strengths are when things are planned out, but when things are off the cuff, you’re no improv star, girl, and that’s okay. You’re not a yes-and girly, and that’s fine. We just need to play to our strengths in this way.” And I think she’s doing the best she can with what she’s got, trying to get information, but it… and the other thing I think she’s also underestimating is how many people go into Borgin and Burkes and pull antics like this. He’s probably very used to people going in and being very odd and strange and trying to just figure things out. And I’m like, “You also seem like an undercover cop.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Right.

Julian: You’re acting in a way that is… you seem like… it definitely feels like you’re an op and you’ve got… and in a place like Knockturn Alley, in those times where the Ministry is really cutting down and coming at people, you can’t go in there just being weird.

Micah: That’s a great point.

Julian: It just doesn’t… everyone’s going to be on edge.

Micah: Yeah, Agent Granger she is not.

Julian: No, no.

Eric: There you go. There’s the chapter… there’s the name of the title of the episode. “Agent Granger.”


Odds & Ends


Eric: All right, well, to wrap things up here, we have our odds and ends, and I just want to draw attention to the first place in the books we ever meet Draco Malfoy. It happens to be in Madam Malkin’s, and this was not something that was adapted in the film; I would have forgotten all about it if not for the audiobook that I was recently going through. But Madam Malkin’s in year one… Draco lays it out on the line. We see how racist he is, we see how uncomfortable, how privileged, and even the voice is described as being bored, how above it all he is, and Harry takes an immediate disliking to him. But Malfoy inadvertently leaves all of his unattractive cards right there on the table for Harry to see, and it has no small effect on Harry’s entire opinion of Malfoy, even way back when. And so to see that mirrored here, where Malfoy is, again, the worst he’s ever been, or straight-up just so clearly an offensive person here in Madam Malkin’s, is a wild kind of connection that I greatly enjoyed.

Julian: I love that scene in the first book, though…

Eric: So good.

Julian: … because I always am like, “You…” Draco has never met anyone who wasn’t pure-blood, and it shows up because his immediate impression is, “Oh, well, if you say that both your parents are magical, there’s no other world in which that’s anything other than pure-blood, so of course I’m going to be outrageously prejudicial, because you are too, right? Because we’re the same, because who else goes to Diagon Alley?” He’s so unaware and ignorant of the world outside of the pure-blood space he finds himself, and I love it because I’m like, this is what kids who come from very cloistered backgrounds do. They don’t know, especially if you… I mean, Harry is in the same place as him. They’re both in Madam Malkin’s. He asked Harry if his parents are a witch and a wizard, and Harry has no conception of what he’s actually asking, and so he’s like, “Yeah, sure,” and Draco is like, “Great, we’re the same, so let’s be racist together.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Julian: And I think it’s so telling. And then to then – to your point, Eric – come back to this moment, this same spot, and Draco is doubled down, ten toes down, full chest like, “I’m still the same person,” but without the air of superiority that he has in that. Even when he was 11 years old, he’s kind of like, “Yeah, my dad says I guess we have to let other people in, but isn’t that dumb?”

[Eric laughs]

Julian: And there’s a way that he… but now he’s like, “Remember that time that your parents couldn’t do magic, Hermione? Ooh, that’s dumb.” It’s a very different air that he has.

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: Yeah. Just a couple of other odds and ends: I know earlier on we were talking about Karkaroff, but in that same conversation, we did also get a mention of Regulus Black. It’s the second time in this book we’ve heard his name, so definitely should keep a Regulus count going, maybe, in the background and see how many times he gets mentioned before the truth gets revealed.

Eric: Would that be Regulus Arcturus Black, by chance?

Micah: It might be.

Eric: Interesting.

Micah: It’s a common name.

Eric: I wish his middle name got name-dropped in this book.

Micah: No, that would be too easy.

Julian: It’s true.

Micah: And then we were joking, actually, about this before, with Moaning Myrtle, but Harry’s bathroom privileges have been upgraded. He is now Quidditch captain…

Eric: Oh, yes! [laughs]

Micah: … which he finds out in this book, which gives him greater bathroom permission to go into the prefects’ bathroom.

Julian: Thank God.

Eric: Finally, a bathroom he can use.

Julian: With a Jacuzzi swimming pool tub. Someone brought up this… I think one of my students brought it up, and then someone else brought it up on Instagram about the question of like, so it’s a coed bathroom, and we’re just meant to believe that these kids are just not having weird pool parties in the bathroom? I’m like, “They absolutely are.”

Micah: With Moaning Myrtle. [laughs]

Eric: This reminds me of the…

Julian: Yeah, Moaning Myrtle is there whether she’s invited or not.

Micah: Don’t call her Moaning for nothing.

[Julian laughs]

Eric: The one day I visited the Louvre, I was 16…

Micah: Where is this going? [laughs]

Julian: Recently? Recently, Eric? Wait a minute, wait a second…

Eric: No, no, but we went in and out… the Louvre is famous for, if you spend 30 seconds in front of every piece in there, you could be there for two decades or more. It’s a lifetime. But no, we did the Mona Lisa, the Venus de Milo, and the other thing – the third thing that you’re supposed to see there – and then left because it was our only possible pool day to spend back at the hotel. And so we had no appreciation for culture, and we were just dumb, stupid kids.

Micah: Wow.

Eric: I forget where exactly I was going with that, but it was a fun memory. So pool parties, definitely on the table now for Harry Potter.

Julian: Oh, yeah.

Micah: You were connecting the threads. There you go.

Eric: Connecting the threads to my own life. Yes, I was not at the Louvre recently, that you will prove.


MVP of the Week


Eric: So let’s get on to MVP segment here. I had a quick question for you guys: What is – we talked about it briefly, but – the coolest Fred and George product that’s intro’d in this chapter?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Eric: I did this last time we talked about it, but I’m going to give it to the hangman. “Spell it or he’ll swing.” That is my absolute favorite magical item ever mentioned in the books.

Micah: There are a lot of good ones to pick from. I chose the Decoy Detonators.

Eric: Good one.

Micah: I’m curious to see what they get up to with that.

Julian: I’m weirdly obsessed with the Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder. I don’t know why, I don’t know what it is, I don’t know… but every time, I’m like, “Yeah, that’s absolutely… you need that.”

Eric: It seems almost calming, or… right? Instant darkness? Ooh, sensory deprivation. Ooh, that would be peaceful.

Julian: Yeah, how long does that last?

[Eric and Julian laugh]

Eric: “Can I get seven?”

Julian: [laughs] Exactly.

Eric: No, that’s… I’m so glad, then, in your case, Julian, that we get to see that in action later. Not in the best moment, but…

Julian: No, yeah, exactly. I love… maybe that’s why I like it, because I’m very nosy, and I would absolutely use it in the same way that Harry does, but I would just do it better than Harry, because Harry is a bull in a China shop.

Eric: Doesn’t Draco use it?

Julian: No, Harry does.

Eric: Harry does, okay.

Julian: He uses it so he can climb on top of the thing in the train, and so he uses that and then he tries… but when he gets up, he kicks a thing, and that’s how Draco spots him.

Eric: Draco spots… oh, there’s so much good stuff between Harry and Draco coming in this book.

Julian: Oh, absolutely. 1,000%, yeah. I always say that it’s Harry’s bi awakening, but that’s a different story for a different day.

Eric: [laughs] I really have to say, just in general, Julian, closing out the chapter, I’m so grateful for just this deeper insight into Draco going into the rest of this book that we’re just starting out. You guys just finished it.

Julian: We just finished it, and we spent all the class on Tuesday talking about Draco, and my students… I had some students who were very defensive of Draco, which is… every semester is different. Some semesters… I had one semester where the girlies were just in love with him, and he could do no wrong, but more often than not, they are not the biggest sympathizers. But this was probably one of the first semesters where I had to come to Draco’s defense in a lot of ways, which I never do, but I’m a contrarian, and so if my students are like, “He’s the worst,” I’m like, “Or is he the best?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, he’s kind of toxic, and I can see why nobody would like him.

Julian: Yeah, no, no. For sure.

Eric: But yeah, no, I think that’s the best thing we hear from teachers, too, is you set the questions up to have no one answer.

Julian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think going in a little bit… and I think just re-listening to this chapter, and I was like, “Oh, God, this kid, he’s so insecure right now.” He doesn’t know how to operate when he doesn’t have his dad there to basically be his muscle, and now he has to be the muscle, and he’s never lifted a weight in his life.

Eric: [laughs] And that’s the first step to empathy, too, is trying to understand what’s going on inside. Absolutely nuts.


Lynx Line


Eric: Speaking of having no one answer, we now move on to our Lynx Line segment, where each week on Patreon we ask a question of our Slug Club members. And this week’s question on the Lynx Line was: What is really on Malfoy’s forearm that he shows to Borgin? Because he shows him something, Borgin looks terrified, and we don’t see what it is. We know what it is from reading the books, but we’re going to have some fun here. Micah, thank you so much for, by the way, coming up with this. I was a little short on Lynx Line questions, and Micah was like, “Let’s ask what’s on the forearm.” So I was like, “Okay, that’s great, that’s great.”

Micah: Well, the second part to that question was “Wrong answers only,” but I don’t see that in here.

[Julian and Micah laugh]

Eric: Okay, okay. Well, I thought it was assumed, because if we get people that have read the book going, “It’s the Dark Mark!” [laughs] I have 15 answers, and none of them are, “It’s the Dark Mark!” So everyone understood the assignment, even without my prompting.

Micah: First up is Rachel S., who says, “A tattooed QR code leading to his Harry Potter fan blog.”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, that’s delightful. Robert P. says, “A QR code -“ wow “- for the YouTube link to ‘A Very Potter Musical’ by Team StarKid productions.”

Julian: [laughs] I’m sure he’d be singing all the songs. Justin S. writes, “Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.”

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: So a secret Dumbledore fan at heart.

Eric: I love that.

Micah: Or a Hogwarts fan at heart. Kim says, “A barcode for free Firewhisky at the Three Broomsticks.”

[Eric laughs]

Julian: I’ll take that.

Eric: “Scan this tattoo.” Yeah, we know that Draco is friendly with the… well, he hangs out at the Three Broomsticks sometimes. Zach says, “A tattoo that says, ‘I joined the Death Eater and all I got was a cheap tattoo.'”

[Julian and Micah laugh]

Eric: Okay, that is kind of the right answer.

Julian: Yes. [laughs] Tom wrote, “A tattoo of a Pygmy Puff.” Because he’s a softy at heart, everybody.

Eric: He did it first.

Micah: Julie Ann says, “A tattoo saying ‘My father will hear about this’ that he can just flash at will instead of having to verbalize it anymore.”

Julian: Useful.

Eric: “Just point to my forearm.” I love it. That would intimidate Borgin. Betty.B-Gryffindor – love that username – “A tattoo that says, ‘My other father will hear about this,’ with Voldy’s face behind it.”

[Julian and Micah laugh]

Eric: Love that one.

Julian: That’s amazing. Sonia wrote, “‘Live, Laugh, Love’ in swirly font with a feather.” You gotta have a feather.

Eric: Unexpected. Unexpected. Such a… oh.

Julian: You didn’t think to see that.

Eric: Yeah, I love it.

Micah: Sarah M. – moving away from QR codes and tattoos – says, “His WWVD (What Would Voldy Do?) bracelet.”

[Julian laughs]

Eric: Oh, man. And Emily M. says, “An armful of Swiftie-style friendship bracelets that Draco offers to barter.”

Julian: Incredible.

Eric: And then she adds, “He’s definitely in his Reputation era at this point in the series.”

Julian: That feels right.

Micah: The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We ask a new question every week. You can become a member of our community today by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and receiving this and many more benefits, like bonus MuggleCast. And if you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 7, “The Slug Club.” Wonder how that’s going to go with our Slug Club.

Eric: Ooh.

Micah: It’d be really interesting.

Eric: Slug-ception.

Micah: Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Micah: And to wrap things up, it is now time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question – because we suffered from an excess of phlegm – is in what country do Flemish people largely reside? Where are they from? And the correct answer was Belgium! The Flemish are from Belgium, and an area that was formerly the Netherlands as well. So that’s very exciting. A whopping 60% of people who submitted the correct answer say they did not look it up. We actually just asked people. It’s an open book quiz if you want it, but if you know it without looking it up, great. This week’s winners were Accio Good Marks; An Excess… of Belgian Chocolate; Bort Voldemort, sort of; Draco’s Etsy Badge Shop; Dutch Hufflepuff; Gryffinpuff from Sweden; I play Fluffy’s harp; Ken; Ms. Cheeta 1987; Ned, Hi Diddly Ho; Ozzygig-Got a gig; Ron’s favorite spider; Shyam; Smiley Fries; Tangled yarn; The Belgian wizard that Ron told about winning the Daily Prophet Galleon Draw Grand Prize… that’s a deleted scene from Prisoner of Azkaban reference. The Jessly Hallows; and of course, our dear friend Tofu Tom. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: Speaking of ice cream going out of business, the factory grounds of which famous ice cream company features a flavor graveyard with headstones commemorating each of its formerly retired ice cream flavors that just didn’t sell well enough? Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website; visit MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on the site, maybe checking out transcripts, wanting to look at the previous episodes where Julian was on – because he’s always such a wonderful guest – those episodes, by the way, are…

Julian: 619 in 2023, and then 708 in June of 2025. That’s “Professor Trelawney’s Prediction” and “Snape’s Worst Memory,” respectively.

Eric: Thank you, Julian. Yes, whether you’re checking out those transcripts for 619 or 708, they’re both up there. And that’s it! Click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav to play our little fun game. Julian, thank you so very much for coming on for your third MuggleCast episode! You were amazing as always.

Julian: Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was a blast.

Eric: Oh, I love it so much.

Micah: And where can folks find you?

Eric: Yes!

Julian: Oh, you can find me, Critical Magic Theory, wherever you cast your pods, on TikTok at @ProfW, and on Instagram at @Prof.JW. Yeah, those are my places.

Micah: Well, as Eric said, it was awesome having you on.

Julian: Thank you.

Micah: Thanks for finally cohosting with me. It only took a couple of episodes to make it happen, but it was a lot of fun.

Julian: That’s it.

Eric: And I think this was the right time. This was kismet. It was the right time to come back.

Julian: [laughs] Yeah, absolutely.

Micah: All right, well, that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. I’m Micah.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Julian: Oh, and I’m Julian.

Micah: [laughs] Yes, you are.

[Julian laughs]

Eric: Thank you, Professor.

Micah: Bye, everyone.

Eric and Julian: Bye.

Transcript #727

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #727, Weasley Gossip Hour (HBP Chapter 5, An Excess of Phlegm)


Cold Open


Micah: I wonder, does Rufus even know that Dumbledore is about to show up?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: It’s, what, one o’clock in the morning at this point?


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your favorite podcast app so you never miss a week. And this week, put down that telescope; it looks to be tampered with, and nothing good will come of trying to use it. Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 5 of Half-Blood Prince, “An Excess of Phlegm,” and we have our first reactions to the brand new full cast Harry Potter audiobooks. And helping us with our discussion today, Slug Club guest, Kathlyn. Welcome, Kathlyn, to the show!

Kathlyn: Hello.

Andrew: It’s a pleasure to have you on. You just celebrated a birthday, actually, and you’re wearing your MuggleCast shirt. Check, check, check. Can we get your fandom ID, please?

Kathlyn: Yeah, so my favorite book is Half-Blood Prince, believe it or not, and favorite movie is Philosopher’s Stone, or should I say Sorcerer’s Stone? And I’m a Hufflepuff, no idea what my Ilvermorny House is, and my Patronus is a wood mouse. And for what would get me into the Slug Club, it’s not really a talent, but my dance teacher was Paul Harris, who’s the choreographer for wands in the Harry Potter films. So I guess it’s who you know.

Laura: Ah! That’s awesome.

Eric: Oh my God. What dance school did you attend? What was this for?

Kathlyn: So I studied my university degree at Mountview Academy of Theatre Arts in London, which is a drama school, and he came in to be our dance teacher and teach us period dances.

Andrew: Wow.

Kathlyn: But he did make us watch a very long DVD of all his work, and there was lots of Harry Potter stuff in there.

[Eric and Kathlyn laugh]

Andrew: Well, if you’ve got Harry Potter in your credits, I guess I would show that off too.

Eric: I love this as an answer to what would get you in the Slug Club, because it is who you know sometimes.

Andrew: Yes, definitely.

Eric: So it makes a lot of sense.

Andrew: Eric, you actually worked with this choreographer, right? Paul Harris?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: No, you did! I’m looking at pictures! He’s training you.

Eric: No, no, no… the thing is…

Micah: No, the choreographer worked with Eric.

Andrew: Oh.

[Kathlyn laughs]

Eric: I had to post… Paul tried, okay? Mr. Harris tried to get me to… the thing is, I posted two images. They’re going on our Discord. Heck, maybe they’ll go in the show notes. But it’s because I didn’t and couldn’t post the video of me being awful at learning wand choreography from the Harry Potter Celebration in 2015. So this is ten years ago, ten years since I embarrassed myself on stage in Orlando.

Andrew: How are you bad with a wand, though? I don’t… what do you mean?

Eric: Thank you.

Andrew: You were just making the wrong moves?

Eric: Yeah, I turned left and did… the fifth of the five steps of the wand choreography is where you do a rotate, and I completely dyslexia’d it and went the other way.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: So you see a stage of people who had never done this before – he was training groups of people at a time – all moving in sync after three minutes, except I’m completely backwards and reversed. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: But I have the confidence and the stare of having just done something amazing.

Andrew: You do look confident, yeah.

Eric: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Andrew: Better luck next time.

Eric: By the way, Kathlyn, where do you hail from?

Kathlyn: So I’m from Aberdeen, Scotland, but I live in Essex, England.

Andrew: Okay, cool.

Eric: Love it.

Kathlyn: The UK. [laughs]

Andrew: The UK, yeah. Well, welcome. And thank you for staying up late. It’s currently quite late there, so we appreciate you staying up late.

Kathlyn: Thank you for having me.


News


Andrew: We do have some news to discuss: We were lucky to get a preview of the Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone full cast audiobook. At least a couple of us have listened to it. First impressions?

Micah: I really enjoyed it. I’ve listened to a couple of chapters so far, and I will say that it’s an immersive experience. It’s not just like listening to Jim Dale or Stephen Fry, because this audiobook really takes you into the story. I’m still getting accustomed to some of the characters and the voice actors – I know we’re going to talk a little bit about Hugh Laurie – but overall, it’s a great listening experience. In terms of characters who stood out to me so far, Mark Addy as Hagrid, I think maybe because he sounds so much like Robbie Coltrane; that’s what’s kind of endeared me to him. I also loved him as Robert Baratheon on Game of Thrones, amongst many other things that he’s been in.

Andrew: I was blown away. Full cast, full sound effects, music… the whole nine yards. It really feels like you’re listening to a movie; you just can’t see it. It blew past my expectations. I’ve listened to three hours of Book 1. I think the actor playing Draco is an early standout; he’s played by Jude Farrant. Also very cool to hear Arabella Stanton as Hermione. She’s also going to be the Hermione in the Harry Potter TV show, so it’s almost like getting a sneak peek of her in the Harry Potter TV show.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And like I mentioned, music, sound effects, background effects, small reactions from characters that you hear as other characters are talking…

Eric: Mm.

Micah: Just like that.

Andrew: Oh yeah, just like what Eric did. A very cool moment to me was when all the kids saw Hogwarts for the first time; there was this collective “Whoa” from everybody. It really builds on the book in wonderful ways. I even was listening today; the Hogwarts school song gets performed by the kids! [laughs] It’s really cool. I’ve just really enjoyed it. This is a really special addition to the wizarding world.

Eric: I haven’t been able to listen yet; I got the link late in the week and haven’t had a chance, but I’m very excited, because I love Hugh Laurie. So Micah, what’s your beef here?

Micah: I’ll preface it by saying I hope that he grows on me in future books, because presumably he’s going to be around for quite a while [laughs] in terms of these audiobooks, and they’ve all been recorded at this point. He just sounds too young to be Dumbledore; that’s my issue with it. And Andrew, would you second that? How do you feel listening to him?

Andrew: Yes. Well, he just sounds too Hugh Laurie to me; I’m not hearing Dumbledore in his portrayal. And I thought initially it was because, oh, we’re hearing Dumbledore when he drops Harry off on Privet Drive, but then you get to Hogwarts, and it’s still the same Dumbledore. So that’s the only one I’m just sort of “Eh” about so far, but maybe he will grow on us.

Micah: Yeah, I hope he does.

Andrew: He needs to sound older.

Eric: And that’s such an interesting thing, because yeah, I mean, the portrayals of Dumbledore we’ve seen before have all been by men above 60; I’d say even maybe above 70…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: … or Jim Dale and Stephen Fry doing an impression of a man who, in the books, is 150.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: And so to have a young-sounding Dumbledore, even – besides the Fantastic Beasts series, which has him portrayed by Jude Law – would be, I assume, off-putting a little. I can see how that might happen.

Laura: Hugh Laurie is 66, though. I just looked it up.

Micah: He sounds great.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Doesn’t sound a day over 40.

Andrew: I wouldn’t say he… [laughs] Right, exactly. Botox for the voice; it’s keeping him young. But I do think it doesn’t impact the experience at all.

Micah: No.

Andrew: It’s something that kind of catches your ear when you first hear it, I think, but then you stop thinking about it.

Micah: And I’ll just add – and Eric, this goes to your point earlier – there’s an expectation coming in for Dumbledore, with Richard Harris, with Michael Gambon, and I think that’s also the case for a lot of these characters. You have an expectation of what you’re about to hear, and you need to kind of give yourself that space to be able to take in a new interpretation of any number of these characters. So I need to be a little bit more open-minded, I think, going into it than I’ve been so far.

Eric: But something that’ll be interesting, Micah – because like you said, it takes maybe some getting used to – is I think that Gambon as Dumbledore took several films before I was truly cozy, and with Half-Blood in particular, the movie, I was just like, “Okay, this is Dumbledore for me.” So I really am wondering if come Book 2, Book 3… fortunately, only have to wait a couple months to see if he does, in fact, grow on you or the role, and you’re like, “Yeah, this is Dumbledore.” It’s an interesting take.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Maybe he’ll become more tired, like a tired Dumbledore.

Micah: Because he’s reading so much.

Eric: As he grows weary of reading six and a half Harry Potter books, yeah.

Andrew: [in a tired voice] “Why’d I commit to seven books? I can’t do it anymore.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: The first book does come out November 4. Again, really great experience. I’m very much looking forward to listening to all these…

Micah: On the day this is released.

Andrew: Yeah! It’s keeping me engaged in the story in a way I wasn’t expecting. Typically, my mind will wander with audiobooks, but with this, it’s keeping me locked in. So can’t recommend it enough. The books are only available on Audible, and you can stream them through Amazon Music, if you’re an unlimited member there. And speaking of previews, by the way, just want to say in two weeks from now, I’ll share some thoughts on Universal’s new Harry Potter-themed land at their latest theme park Epic Universe. I’ll be going there next week, and looking forward to finally seeing that, so will let you all know how the land is.

Micah: I hope you have fun riding Umbridge.

Andrew: [laughs] Um, excuse me?

Laura: Ooh.

Micah: Isn’t that what it’s called?

Andrew: I don’t believe the ride is called Umbridge. I think it’s Battle of the Ministry, or something like that.

Micah: Oh, I’m sorry.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Laura: I thought you were implying it was called “Riding Umbridge,” and I was going to be like, “Whoa.”

Andrew: Oh, that’s exactly what he meant. Micah, you can go now. You’re excused for the night. Kathlyn, I’m so sorry for the lack of professionalism here. [laughs]

Kathlyn: Oh, I loved it. It was great.

Micah: It’s been a long work week.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Andrew: Well, listeners, if you enjoy MuggleCast and want to help keep this show looking better than Ron Weasley’s OWL results…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … and hey, maybe you want to help support getting Andrew a butterbeer at the new Epic Universe land, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and by joining, you’ll get instant access to two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month, plus ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, a personal video “Thank you” message from one of the MuggleCasters, a physical gift delivered by owl each year, and much more.

Micah: I’ll buy you a butterbeer.

Andrew: You’ll buy me a butterbeer? Okay. You have my Venmo?

Micah: Yeah, I’ll Venmo you.

Andrew: Okay. Yes, yes. Perfect. And if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCast Merch to buy official show gear. Kathlyn is wearing her MuggleCast shirt tonight, Eric is… yeah, we got three. All the same, the “19 Years Later” shirts. We still have some of these available, so don’t miss out. MuggleCastMerch.com, and then click the banner at the top of the page to visit the overstock store.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: Time for Chapter by Chapter, and we’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 5, “An Excess of Phlegm.”

Eric: We last discuss this chapter of Half-Blood Prince on MuggleCast 383 for September 10 of 2018. That episode was titled “She Existed,” and as always, we make some revelations in this clip.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 383.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Andrew: But I think you raise a good question, the very first thing you said: Who made the clock? That would help Molly figure out why it keeps saying “Mortal peril.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, send him an owl. Be like, “Hey, this is stuck on…” Or where’s the grandfather clock repair man? Repair wizard?

Andrew: “Uh, ma’am? Do I have to state the obvious? Voldemort is back; that’s why it says ‘Mortal peril.'”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And I mean, ultimately it kind of ends up being right, for at least one of the Weasleys.

Eric: Yeah, nobody’s safe. Especially when Molly doesn’t do the password.

Andrew: So could the clock actually have known that one of them was going to die, but maybe it didn’t know which?

Eric: I think that might be a stretch.

Andrew: I need a clock for Lavender Brown, to find out what’s going on with her.

[Eric laughs]

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Eric: Remember when we didn’t know a lot about Lavender Brown seven years ago? And we still don’t know about Lavender Brown?

Andrew: Some things never change.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Let’s crack into this lovely chapter, “An Excess of Phlegm.” Something that stands out to me on this most recent reread: Harry is at the Burrow, he’s eating a wonderful plate or bowl of onion soup that Molly has cooked for him late at night, and between this evening… so Dumbledore has just left, Tonks has left, and first thing in the morning, several people, multiple times, remark about how Harry was not expected until way later. Maybe the thing with Slughorn was going to take all night and then some, because Dumbledore originally told Molly, “Hey, we’ll be back in the morning.” But because we’re fresh off our Horace Slughorn chapter discussion, I kind of wanted to tug that thread a little bit more and say it’s honestly shocking how many times it comes up in this chapter; right on page 83 of the US edition, Molly says to Harry, “Everyone’s in bed, of course, we didn’t expect you for hours.” Then Arthur gets home and he goes, “Harry! We didn’t expect you until morning!” And then Harry is woken up the next morning, and Ron goes, “We didn’t know you were here already!” It’s utterly absurd that so many people were like, “He’s coming tomorrow. He’s coming tomorrow. Wait, he’s here now? Let’s tell Harry how crazy that is.” So I’ve got to ask, I’ve got to ask: What was Dumbledore’s B plan? C plan? If they were going to be there another ten hours, trying to persuade Slughorn… was he going to tie him up?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: What was Dumbledore thinking originally…? Obviously, at the end of the previous chapter, Dumbledore says, “Harry did his magic, and something only Harry could do.” But what if that hadn’t worked? What was the plan?

Kathlyn: I mean, I’m convinced he would have taken him down to the pub for a nightcap, and been like, “Here you go.” Just keep plying him, and then intoxicated him all the way back to Hogwarts. [laughs] That’s what I’m pretty convinced… he would have just Apparated him back, because he can do that, right, Dumbledore?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Nothing a butterbeer couldn’t have fixed, you’re saying.

[Kathlyn laughs]

Laura: Don’t we see Dumbledore do this later to the head of the orphanage in a memory?

Eric: Yeah, slowly get Mrs. Cole a little drunker, a little looser around the lips. Well, I was wondering if in this case, as you’re saying this, if his goal is to get Slughorn drunker, maybe he would abandon the approach of trying to recruit Slughorn and he would go straight for the Horcrux memory. Really attempt to pry it out of him.

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Eric: He’s like, “Okay, if you won’t…” Because that’s why he wants Slughorn at Hogwarts, right? Is to get to the bottom of this theory he has that Tom Riddle went after Horcruxes. So maybe if Slughorn really is unpersuadable…

Andrew: I think Dumbledore was maybe also just sort of banking on Slughorn thinking about it in the proceeding hours and changing his mind. I think maybe he got really lucky walking out and Slughorn immediately was like, “Okay, yes, I’ll do it, but give me a raise.” He was hoping that Slughorn overnight would realize that he should go to the school. He’d be safe there; he would have a permanent address where all of his Slug Club alumni could reach him. There are a lot of perks for Slughorn, plus a raise.

Micah: I just think Dumbledore is on a mission this whole book so far. He’s about getting things done and getting results. He goes to the Dursleys; he tells them what’s up. He goes and recruits Slughorn. He drops Harry off at the Weasleys. And by the way, this is the third consecutive chapter where Dumbledore just drops in on people unannounced. I think this is extremely rude.

Andrew: It is!

Micah: And he mentions Rufus Scrimgeour, that he has to go and meet with him. I wonder, does Rufus even know that Dumbledore is about to show up?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: It’s, what, one o’clock in the morning at this point?

Eric: Yeah, yeah. It keeps getting an hour later. He shows up at the Dursleys at 11, he shows up at Horace’s at midnight, 1:00 a.m… fortunately, we know Scrimgeour wants to talk to Dumbledore, because he needs to…

Micah: I don’t think he’s getting much sleep at this point either, as Minister for Magic.

Laura: Yeah, probably not.

Micah: But still, very rude of Dumbledore. But I also noticed here, Kathlyn, you have a plot hole related to Dumbledore and Harry.

Kathlyn: Yeah, well, they have the whole Mollywobbles thing with Arthur, and they want to identify everybody; they don’t trust anybody. And they’re all like, “Oh, you’re back super early! We didn’t expect you to be here!” That would be suspicious to me.

Eric: Oh my…

Kathlyn: Why haven’t they checked who they are? [laughs]

Eric: God, that’s a good point! They have extra reason to be suspicious! Because if you’re going to break in somewhere or pretend to be somebody, it’s literally somebody that you don’t expect, or at a time you don’t expect them showing up, is literally what the Ministry is warning about. If anybody had read these pamphlets, I’m telling you, and taken them seriously, they would have probed Harry and Dumbledore. Well, at least Arthur Weasley, of all people, is observing these guidelines, because he wants to put on… he wants to be the example, the prime example of Ministry… fool? No, safe person! He actually has been promoted; this is a wonderful thing, but he’s the only one we see taking this stuff seriously as far as security goes.

Andrew: Well, he’s got a big family that he needs to be looking out for, so I think it’s just really wise of him to be leading by example and hoping that the example he sets is instilled in the rest of his family. Not to mention, his family members are potential high value targets, if you will, because of the association to Harry.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: So it’s very important that they’re taking these security measures seriously.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Kathlyn: Does he also want to really follow the guidelines because…? I mean, it’s already mentioned in the chapter that his sons, they could have made these things. They could have been behind this magic; it’s something they could have thought up of, and he’s like, “I’m going to be extra good because they’re going to think straight away it’s my jokester sons.”

Eric: That’s a heck of a thing. I think that Fred and George’s occupation – which we’ll get even more insight into in the next chapter – could be muddying the waters here a little bit, because to your point, Kathlyn, it does… these fake protective things that are scams, essentially, that necessitate the creation of this department, do sound like something Fred and George might make.

Micah: I do think, though, it’s also really cool that it’s mentioned that Arthur misses his old job, despite his promotion. He seems to have a strong love of all things Muggle.

Andrew: Also, very long job title: Office for the Detection and Confiscation of Counterfeit Defensive Spells and Protective Objects. Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure at Universal Orlando’s the Wizarding World of Harry Potter Hogsmeade.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Yeah, basically.

Micah: That’s one heck of a business card. Can you imagine trying to fit that on your business card? It’d take up the whole thing.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Kathlyn: But there are so many government jobs that have ridiculous titles, right? And they’re super long.

Andrew: True.

Kathlyn: Well, there is in the UK. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. No, it’s probably a problem here in America as well.

Eric: Let’s move on. We get some updates, more updates from Molly, and in this case, one from Fleur Delacour, who’s here. She brings Harry his breakfast in the morning after Ron has come in, voiced his surprise, and apparently hit Harry on the head for being there so early.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I don’t understand; it’s very weird and Movie 4-ish. But Fleur is surprised to learn that Harry does not yet know that she and Bill Weasley, the Weasleys’ eldest child, are engaged to be married!

Andrew: [gasps] Aww, yay!

Eric: And Molly, who’s immediately soured after Fleur has looked at her, is saying, “We hadn’t got around to telling him yet.” And it’s interesting, because at the beginning of the chapter, Molly really is info-dumping on Harry, and she tells him about the promotion and it’s this lovely conversation. Somehow, her oldest, the first child of hers to be engaged, is not top news. It doesn’t make the cut the night before. Can we intuit here that there’s, I don’t know, anything other than a lack of enthusiasm going on from Molly toward Bill and Fleur’s nuptials?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, she’s clearly not happy about it. It’s a stereotype, unfortunately.

Eric: What’s that?

Laura: Mothers and their older sons.

Eric: Oh, like they’re super protective? Ahh.

Andrew: Well, I was going to say, too, this is just something you see in the Muggle world as well, where sometimes somebody’s going to come into the family and family members aren’t going to like them. I can point to a couple examples in my own family where it’s like, “You know, we’ve just got to deal with them being a part of the family now.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Maybe they’re nice, maybe they mean well, but you just don’t jive! It’s just a thing that happens. Because the partner might fall in love, but then it doesn’t mean the rest of the family has to like them for the same reasons. Hopefully they do.

Laura: Right. Yeah, I mean, Molly just needs to remember she can have her own feelings, but at the end of the day, Bill is the one who has to live with his chosen spouse, right?

Andrew: Wow, Laura is not a fan either, it sounds like, of Fleur.

Laura: No, I’m not saying anything like that; I actually think Molly, Hermione, and Ginny are being really unfair towards her. But at the same time, I truly believe as his parent, she should just want him to be happy and understand that she’s not the one who has to live with Fleur. So at the end of the day, she needs to get over it. And she will, she will, like a lot of people do.

Eric: Well, after a grand gesture, but…

Andrew: Molly brings up that they’ve known each other for just a year, which at first seems to be her primary concern, and then this turns into a conversation about people rushing to do things in light of this war that they’re in, in case they die sooner rather than later.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And it’s understandable. That’s actually something we see in the real world too. Some bad news is afoot, the current politics of the world, and it causes people to move up their timelines, to lock things in before things change.

Micah: In terms of why maybe it wasn’t brought up when Harry first arrived, I think there were probably more things pressing on Molly’s mind at that time than the fact that Fleur was in the house, and… I don’t know; she seems very stressed out, putting Fleur aside in this chapter. And we see that with when Harry first arrives, and Tonks is there, and she’s trying to console her, and then she has to cook Harry dinner at one o’clock in the morning, she’s worried about whether or not Arthur is going to show up on time… so there’s a lot of different things that are at play here, and I don’t think telling him about an engagement is probably at the top of her mind, in fairness to her.

Andrew: No.

Eric: I think that’s fair.

Micah: Now, what happens throughout the rest of the chapter, however…

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: … is not fair towards Fleur.

Andrew: Molly also brings up that she and Arthur got married quickly, but she says they were made for each other, so it’s okay that they rushed into it.

Eric: Well, it’s funny because Ginny points this out, so Ginny alternates between complaining about Fleur, who apparently talks to her like she’s a child, and then also getting kind of the devil’s advocate position, where she’s like, “Actually, didn’t you and dad get married really early?” And Molly… so the hypocrisy is pointed out, and that’s delightful, because characters that we love… everyone’s allowed a little bit of foolishness or contradictions. I think contradictions make people sometimes. And Molly is like, “Well, that’s because your father and I were meant for each other, so what’s the point in waiting?” [laughs] And I’ve got to say, I actually relate to Mrs. Weasley here because actually, cards on the table, the reason that I am married right now, and got married in January of this year, is because of greater political realities and things, and I thought, “Best to do it.” Meg and I were a fit; we knew we were going to do it eventually. Why not, given the weight of the world? And I’ll tell you what, the thing about that that I learned was as things were getting real dark and feeling just cold and dark all winter and all that stuff in the beginning of this year, I was able to look around and just say, “Heh, I did a thing! I’m married now!” And that little boost of happiness, of euphoria, of “Ah, we did a thing,” actually pulled us through some darker times, I think.

Kathlyn: Yeah, I think after Covid lockdowns, you saw a lot of this, a lot of people having babies and getting married and stuff. And I certainly… me and my partner weren’t living together through lockdown, and we moved in together and we’re now married, and I think, yeah, you just accelerate things because you think, “God, life’s too short. Just do it.”

Laura: I was also going to say I don’t think there’s a manual to know exactly when’s the right time. I think there are certainly probably very short timeframes that most people could agree, like, “That’s really quick to get married,” but a year… considering one, the time period this takes place. We have to remember it’s not 2025 where people aren’t getting married until they’re well into their 30s; people were getting married much younger then. And then two, considering the fact that they are in the middle of a war, I think that kind of colors the circumstances in a way that might help a couple develop the depth of their relationship more quickly than they would if they were living in peace time. So I don’t know; I think it’s all relative, and I think Molly is just in a little bit of denial here.

Eric: Micah, you had a great point about Fleur finding comfort in Harry being there.

Micah: Yeah, and I think in fairness to Fleur, she’s still very much a foreigner. We see her as a foreigner in Goblet of Fire, literally, but she’s a foreigner in this house, and Harry is the only person that she feels that she knows, and it must have been such a relief for her to hear that he was at the Burrow, and that’s why she made the decision to bring him up his breakfast. And I know she kind of steps on Molly’s toes a little bit in doing that, but I think she’s genuinely excited to have somebody in the house that she has some kind of relationship with, because she doesn’t have a relationship with anybody else outside of Bill.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a great point, and it makes me question… I don’t want to say Bill’s motive, but Bill’s actions here, because he’s at his job, presumably – I think we do see him at the Burrow at the beginning of the next chapter, which is nice – but Bill has left his fiancée, who English is not her first language; she speaks with an accent everyone hates, clearly. And he’s left her here to the wolves, to just kind of figure it out. And maybe he’s thinking, “I’m a Weasley. The Weasleys are the nicest family in the wizarding world. They’re going to be fine.”

Andrew: But we also don’t really know how much time she spent with Molly and company prior to this scene, do we? I mean, yes, they didn’t vacation together, but maybe there have been some dinners together or something. But I agree with you; there probably was a better way to get her more involved with the family and have her staying at the house. I also just think that Fleur is part-Veela; she’s this beautiful lady who all the guys ogle over, and she’s kind of like this almost larger than life figure because of that. And I think Molly maybe was just hoping that all of her children would meet people who are a little more down to earth.

Laura: Yeah, that’s probably part of it. I think also… I think you’re onto something with talking about Molly imagining someone more down to earth, almost like someone more like the family, right?

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: Like Tonks?

Laura: She thinks of Harry like a son, right? And that’s why she’s trying to push Tonks off, exactly.

Eric: Well, and that is suggested in this chapter, that Molly wishes… we don’t hear it from Molly, but I guess the implication is that they think that she wants Tonks to be with Bill instead. Really, I think Molly is just counseling Tonks about Lupin, which we don’t find out until much later. But yeah, it’s just interesting from a down-to-earth standpoint, because look at where Charlie is; her next kid may never return from Romania, where he’s with his dragons. Percy is in the wind somewhere; we don’t know what that relationship might… if he’s kept up with Penelope… we just don’t know, and so it’s rich of Mrs. Weasley to be disapproving of somebody who… Bill is at least doing the right thing and bringing her home and letting her meet the family, and not springing anything on Mrs. Weasley. She has a whole year to look forward to this, so… I know she’ll come around on it, though.

Kathlyn: I mean, I think as well with the whole… like you guys are saying about the accent and everything, my thoughts are British people are overly polite and can be quite passive-aggressive, and mainland Europe can be a bit more to the point. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing; there’s pros and cons to both ways. And I think just sometimes, as a British person, when someone comes in and they can be kind of to the point, you’re like, “Oh, what is this? What is this?” [laughs] You need to just kind of be like, “All right, okay, that’s just the cultural ways.” And I think there’s probably a lot of that clash there as well, because this is…

Eric: Culture clash.

Kathlyn: Yeah, it is. This is a real British family. Wizarding family, but they’re very, very British in their ways, and so I think that probably her being… she’s not being rude; she’s just being her, if that makes sense.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Laura: Yeah, you’re totally right. And she’s still learning English; she talks about how she’s still practicing her English, so we have to remember that there are some things… you talk about culture clashing; certain linguistic phrases and terms do not translate well from one language to another, so she still has a lot of colloquialisms to learn.

Kathlyn: Absolutely.

Laura: And so she’s probably not meaning to be rude. It’s just as you said, Kathlyn; she’s just talking the way she talks.

Eric: And she’s been set up to fail, too, the way that… with Hermione, even, the way that Ron reacts – which is not an entirely conscious decision on Ron’s part, whenever she surprise shows up [laughs] – is a subject of ridicule for both Ginny and Hermione against Ron, but it’s another reason for them to dislike Fleur, because of the effect that Veela have on the warm-blooded English male. So she’s set up to fail here, I think.

Micah: It’s really not fair either the way that Hermione treats Fleur, because we think about how she views Krum. This is somebody from the exact same tournament in Goblet of Fire, and I think that Harry’s point about Fleur being good enough to get into the Triwizard Tournament is one of the only positive things that we hear about her in this entire chapter.

Laura: I think Hermione is just jealous.

Eric: Could be. If so, it’s an unpleasant side of Hermione that we’re seeing.

Micah: But I guess maybe I just expect more from Hermione, and maybe I shouldn’t in this case.

Eric: That’s also fair. Everyone’s still, what, 16 now?

Laura: Yeah. Hermione really does…

Kathlyn: She’s a teenage girl.

[Kathlyn and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, exactly, Kathlyn. We have to remember, she is 16, and she definitely regresses in this book. Think about everything we’re going to see later with Cormac and Hermione using him to make Ron jealous because of Lavender. So yeah, she’s just jealous.

Andrew: She has these moments! I’ve brought this up before across the series, where it’s really surprising, the things that she says. [laughs]

Eric: She’s basically a serial killer.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s an old, old, old reference. But yeah, one thing I wanted to point out, though; there was actually a ton of really good discussion about Fleur on… I’m going to give a shout-out to the all girls MuggleCast episode that was done, which was 634, and there’s actually a ton of talk about Fleur’s role as a woman in the series, how she’s viewed by other women, and I just really would encourage anybody who’s looking for more of this discussion, and also in general, to check out the all girls MuggleCast if you haven’t already. That was a great episode. There have been two now, actually, I believe. And that was, again, Episode 634. Yeah, what do you remember about that discussion, Laura?

Laura: You know, the main thing that always sticks out to me about that discussion, but then also about the dynamics that we see represented in these books, is that unfortunately, we don’t get to see very many, if any at all, deep relationships between female characters that are built on any kind of mutual respect. It feels like there can be a lot of women tearing down women in the series, and granted, it’s a coming of age story, and unfortunately, teenagers can just be big jerks to each other, I think, regardless of gender. But there is the stereotype about teenage girls in particular that does exist for a reason, because it is out there. I even think back to when I was a teenager and I could be a little catty sometimes. I like to think I’ve grown since then. But the problem is…

Kathlyn: You’re not the only one, Laura. I was too.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yeah, I love this. See? It’s all about growth.

Eric: Let’s all hug.

[Kathlyn laughs]

Laura: Yeah, group hug. But I think the problem is… particularly this chapter shows us that a lot of the examples we see of women interacting with each other are more on that side of the spectrum than they are on the support side of the spectrum, and that’s just a limitation of the storytelling that we got here. We definitely talked about some ways that representation of female friendships could have been stronger in the series, because there are opportunities for it for sure.

Micah: I was thinking about Molly and Hermione, but then I thought back to just Goblet of Fire where she was angry at Hermione for certain things related to Harry, right?

Laura: Yeah. Well, and actually, James in our Discord… actually, several people in our Discord are weighing in on this. James is saying, “The exception is Hermione/Ginny, or maybe Ginny/Luna, but even then it feels like Hermione/Ginny is only because Hermione ends up a Weasley.”

Eric: Oh.

Laura: And to be honest, we also talked a lot about how Ginny doesn’t get enough representation in the books. She is a really cool character, and we don’t get as much time with her as I think we should have gotten, given how prominent she ended up being.

Micah: So I wanted to ask about Ginny, though – and I’m sure this was something that you discussed, Laura, on that episode – but I’m wondering if for her, some of her behavior towards Fleur has to deal with the fact that she’s never had to compete with another female in her family for face time before.

Laura: Maybe. She also doesn’t know what it’s like to have a big sister, and I think Fleur is doing some of that to her, maybe uninten… maybe it’s a little bit of both. Maybe it’s intentional and unintentional, because I mean, compared to where Ginny is at this point, she’s, what, 15? Think about how you looked at 15-year-olds when you were, what, 19? Is that how old Fleur is? I mean, it really is… you kind of are… there is a chasm between you developmentally-wise; at least, it feels like there is when you’re at that age. So I think the dynamic here is pretty natural. What do you think, Kathlyn?

Kathlyn: No, yeah, I totally agree. I think the age gap is actually massive. That four years might not seem very much to us, but I think to that age, it’s a huge difference. And she’s also used to having a little sister, Fleur…

Andrew and Eric: Ohh.

Laura: Yep, great point.

Kathlyn: … so she might just be like that with her little sister as well. I know as a big sister to little brothers, I can be quite condescending, I guess, when I know more than them, [laughs] and I want to teach them that, and I want to teach them on the right way to be, especially when I was younger. And so I think she’s probably just kind of clinging on to that, and maybe that’s her way of trying to bond with Ginny, with her being like, “Oh, I’ll treat you like I treat my little sister. I teach her this, I teach her that.”

Eric: I love that.

Laura: And let’s be real, older sisters always know best.

Kathlyn: Absolutely. [laughs]

Laura: I think that’s… we are not going to even debate that. We won’t entertain that.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Eric: Oh, okay. I was ready for a old school debate style. No, I think that that’s really lovely insight into that process, and again, with Fleur bringing up Gabrielle, she’s obviously thinking about her sister too.

Micah: So is it then almost like Ginny is missing an opportunity here? Because she’s grown up with all brothers, and now there’s this opportunity,… maybe, too, if the circumstances were different, if they weren’t in the midst of a wizarding war, that it would have played out in a different way. I don’t know.

Eric: Yeah, it’s super soon, too. This could be the first week that they’re in each other’s company, maybe. But I’m loving this discussion, because on paper, Ginny and Fleur should absolutely get along. They’re both kind of jocks, they’re both athletic, but they’re both smart, they’re intelligent… I think that they would actually have a lot in common, frankly. But there’s still so much time ahead of them for them to see this, so now I want the fanfic that’s Ginny and Fleur, little sister/big sister – and littler sister, because Gabrielle can come too – just interacting post-Book 7. And Hermione can stay home.

Micah: It’s called “Hocus Pocus.”

Eric: Yes, very “Hocus Pocus.”

[Kathlyn laughs]

Eric: So yeah, what I noticed, too – wrapping up our discussion on Fleur – is there is a moment where everyone cuts her off, and it’s because the OWLs are coming. Harry kind of sets off the alarm because everyone’s wondering, and he’s like, “Oh, yeah, Dumbledore told me they would be showing up.” Notice how they didn’t come eight hours earlier than Dumbledore said. That’s weird. But no, actually, Fleur has just a half of a moment to say that the French system at Beauxbatons of doing studies, doing quizzes, doing… what’s the word? Testing. Academic testing happens at year six, instead of after five years of study. Fleur just gets in under the wire that she thinks it’s better how they do it at Beauxbatons, which is probably one of those situations, Kathlyn, where that’s a rude thing to say, but she’s not thinking that way, that it’s a rude thing to say. I know how it would sound if a foreigner came in and was like, “The way we do things is better.” But also, I’m inclined to listen. Everybody else just kind of cuts her off, and we never find out what Fleur’s opinion is on testing, which I’m kind of just sad by, that nobody gets comes back to her later and is like, “You were saying?”

Kathlyn: It’s funny, because that’s quite similar to the Scottish and English differences in the testing system in schools.

Eric: Go on.

Kathlyn: So in Scotland… well, when I was at school, which is a long time ago. The exams have changed now. [laughs]

Eric: I think we’re the same age, by the way.

Andrew: More recent than we were. Kathlyn is the youngest in the group, actually.

Eric: Oh, man, okay.

Kathlyn: [laughs] You would sit your… what would be your GCSEs is slightly younger than in England, and the same with the next level up as well when you’re finishing school. They have their A-levels in England, which they do over two years, but in Scotland, it’s Highers and it’s in one year. So I remember moving down here and being like, “You only have three, and you did it over two years? I have five, and I did it in a year!” But that’s just the way the system was; it was just totally different. And I remember people being like, “I worked so hard for my A-levels!” So I must have been the Fleur in that situation. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, man. No, that’s really cool. So the OWL results come.


Odds & Ends


Eric: We’re going to get into some odds and ends here, but one thing we wanted to mention before wrapping up is that Harry does, in fact, get to tell Ron and Hermione that the prophecy is true, that the Daily Prophet is reporting correctly. He, Harry, is the Chosen One.

Andrew: “But I am the Chosen One.”

Eric: “I am the Chosen One.” It’s interesting because Harry… Harry has permission from Dumbledore to tell Hermione and Ron this. Dumbledore explicitly says, “You should tell Hermione and Ron this,” and that’s why Harry does. I’m trying to imagine a Book 6 where Harry doesn’t tell them this.

Andrew: Harry feels relieved after telling Ron and Hermione about the prophecy. It’s a big weight off of his shoulders, and not only did he get it over with, but he sees that they were “still there on either side of him, speaking bracing words of comfort, not shrinking from him as though he were contaminated or dangerous.” And I think it’s a good reminder of not hesitating to be vulnerable in front of your people who you trust and love. You will always feel better after you do that.

Eric: Yeah. Hear, hear.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time for MVP of the Week.

Eric: I wanted to talk about Harry’s OWL results. We have the list here.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Eric: So everyone, what is the most surprising grade that Harry got?

Andrew: I’m going to say History of Magic. He got a D for Dreadful. I know class is really boring with Binns, but I feel like that’s… he should have done better in that. He should have put more effort into it.

Micah: And he passed out in the middle of the exam; he should have gotten to go and do a retake or finish.

Eric: Oh, I thought you were going to say he should have gotten Troll. [laughs]

Andrew: I was going to say, he should have gotten Troll for that. It’s a miracle… it’s a surprise he got Dreadful.

Micah: I’m with you, Andrew.

Eric: Well, I’m going to actually say I’m very and most surprised that Harry eked out an E in Potions, Exceeds Expectations. I know he said it’s better without Snape breathing down his neck, but we don’t see Harry remembering Potions, and in fact, this book is 100% proof that Harry doesn’t know [censored] about Potions on his own, so I’m surprised.

Laura: I’m going to say Divination. I know he didn’t try, obviously, because he didn’t care about it, but I feel like he should have been able to phone this one in for at least an A. Come on.

Eric: Not a Poor.

Kathlyn: Yeah, I was really surprised by Herbology. I mean, he didn’t know what Gillyweed was in Goblet of Fire

[Eric laughs]

Kathlyn: … and he’s done pretty well in Herbology now, so either that put a rocket up him to get a move on and study… I don’t know, but I was quite surprised. [laughs]


Lynx Line


Eric: It’s time now for the Lynx Line segment. We asked a question over on Patreon, and our wonderful participants gave us the answers. For this one, because this is the chapter where Arthur observes the password thing and “Mollywobbles” is revealed to us, we asked listeners: What is an endearing pet name that you or a loved one use that you’re comfortable sharing with us, and what are its origins? This might be one of my favorite Lynx Lines we’ve ever done. People really showed up for it.

Andrew: So Darin said, “My girlfriend and I call each other Biscuit. I have her listed as Honey Biscuit Bun in my phone.”

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: That’s cute, but would also make me hungry, personally.

Eric: Oh, I was going to say, doesn’t this make you want to melt into a glaze? But now I’m hungry too, darn it.

[Kathlyn laughs]

Eric: Rachel says, “One of my high school friends is named Lev, and one day someone asked if it was short for anything. As a joke, I said it’s short for Elevator, and the name stuck.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: That’s funny.

Micah: Michael says, “For some reason when my brother was really little, I called him the baby of truth.”

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Laura: Ooh, very prophetic. Cristina says, “I call my husband ‘Buddy Boy,’ and he calls me ‘Buddy Girl.’ Our WiFi Name is Buddy People. I really cannot remember where this came from.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I love that.

Laura: That is delightful.

Eric: Hey, Buddy Boy. Hey, Buddy Girl. We’re Buddy People.

Kathlyn: Kristin says, “I call my husband ‘Bean,’ and he calls me ‘Sprout.’ It all started with a joke about Jack and the Giant Beanstalk because he is much taller than me.” That is really cute.

Andrew: Aw, that’s cute. We have so many cute listeners!

Eric: I know, this is adorable.

Andrew: Jenny said, “I grew up in the suburbs of a bigger city, and my husband grew up in a rural area, so he calls me City Mouse, and I call him Country Mouse.”

Laura: Aww, I love that.

[Kathlyn laughs]

Eric: So you’re both mouse, aw. Bailey says… [laughs] I’m going to try not to die laughing.

“We call my nephew Beef! His real name is Felix, and when he was a baby, his mom would call him FeFe. The other kids couldn’t quite get the sound right, and started calling him Feef. It then just morphed into Beef. Now he won’t respond to anything else – the whole family, the neighbors, and the kids at school all call him Beef. It’s a little silly, but I love my little Beefy Boy!”

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: And Manda says,

“Growing up, my brother called me ‘Porkchop’ – this stems from the Red Hot Chili Peppers song By The Way, where they say ‘Pawn shop’ but I thought the lyric was ‘porkchop.’ I stand by my assessment and the lyric will always by porkchop to me. My name for my husband is ‘Baloo’ just like the bear in The Jungle Book. I think I saw him scratching his back on a corner once and the name just stuck.”

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Andrew: Hot.

Micah: And my name for Andrew is Andy candy.

Andrew: Aw, wow.

Eric: I didn’t know if you were going to share that. That’s your security question on several platforms, I happen to know.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laughs]

Micah: You’re not supposed to say that.

Andrew: Oh, wait, now let me log into his Gmail with that.

Eric: Break in, yeah.

Andrew: Andy Candy. Happy Halloween. The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We ask a new question with every episode. Become a member of our community today by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and receiving this and many more benefits, like bonus MuggleCast. We have a new one out with wizarding world “Would you rather?” scenarios. It was a lot of fun, so check out that latest bonus MC. And if you have feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Next week, we’ll discuss Half-Blood Prince Chapter 6, “Draco’s Detour.” Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: There are two basic kinds of stitches in knitting. The first is called a knit; what’s the second one called? The correct answer is purl; P-U-R-L is how it’s spelled. So knit and purl are the two stitches in knitting. 66% of all people that submitted the answer say they did not look this up, so that’s kind of neat. Probably a high percentage there. And correct answers were submitted to us by A Healthy Breeze; A Stitch in Time Saves Slughorn’s Nine; Ashley; Ashley B.; Bagels4Buckbeak; Betty Bott’s Every Flavor Beans; Bill Nighy the Potions Guy; Clanging and Banging; Crochet is better anyway; ExcessOfYarn; Gwen Weasley; I want one of Mrs. Weasley’s home-knit sweaters; Insert witty name here; Jessley Hallows; Jiggly Jane; Kristen the Slytherclaw; Lumos Nox; Lynn the Allomancer; MoreLiveShows; NotSoMuggle; OnlyHadToLookUpHowToSpellIt; Sonia; Tangled Yarn; The Selected Learners United for Gifts Club (gifts for Slughorn, obviously); The Hungry Hungry Hufflepuff; Tofu Tom; and Wallysaurus. Woo! People liked this week’s Quizzitch; that’s a high turnout, and you’re all going to really like next week’s. All right, next week’s Quizzitch question: According to a 2011 estimate, there are 7 million Flemish people in the world. In what country do Flemish people largely reside? I.e., where are they from? I am expecting our European listeners to crush this and show up in droves and overwhelm us. Kathlyn, do you know the answer to this?

Kathlyn: I do. I have a Flemish friend. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: So submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re already on the website – checking out transcripts, or the must-listens page, or anything else – click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Kathlyn, thanks for joining us today, and thank you again for staying up so late. We really appreciate it.

Laura: You’re the best.

Kathlyn: I appreciate you having me on. Thank you.

Andrew: And Kathlyn, thank you for your English perspective today. That really came in handy today.

Eric: That was really valued.

[Andrew and Kathlyn laugh]

Kathlyn: I was like, “This is my episode, yes!” [laughs]

Andrew: And your favorite book, like you said!

Kathlyn: Yeah!

Laura: I have a question: Would it be more appropriate to say British perspective?

Kathlyn: It would be. It would be. [laughs]

Andrew: Okay, okay. And thank you for your British perspective today.

Micah: Your Scottish perspective, no?

Kathlyn: British, probably.

Micah: Ah, okay.

Andrew: I remember one time back in the day, I swear I would always say “British,” and then people were like, “It’s an English accent, Andrew, not British,” and I’ve been terrified of saying “British” ever since.

Kathlyn: Well, yeah, British is the culture and the place of the two countries – well, the four countries – and then English is… an English accent is from England, if that makes sense.

Andrew: Okay. I’m just some dumb Yank, so please excuse me.

Kathlyn: Everyone does it; don’t worry. People in England say that I’m English, so…

Micah: Your home country is beautiful. I was there last year.

Kathlyn: We call it God’s country for a reason. [laughs]

Laura: I really want to go.

Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Kathlyn: And I’m Kathlyn.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #726

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #726, Fame W…alrus (HBP Chapter 4, Horace Slughorn)


Cold Open


Eric: Micah thinks he’s going to make it in the Slug Club. Boy, do we have news for him.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, is this your audition?

Micah: These things exist.

Laura: I mean, there genuinely are academic societies for high-performing students to network in.

Andrew: Oh, I wouldn’t know. [laughs]

Micah: Exactly.

Laura: I’m not saying whether or not that’s fair, but it is a thing.

Micah: As Ravenclaws, Laura and I would find ourselves invited by Professor Slughorn.

Andrew: Spoken like a true Slug Club member.

Micah: You’re in his House! You’ve got to get an in somehow, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: Hello, everyone. I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app so you never miss a week with your Harry Potter friends. And this week, ooh-ooh, we hope you’ve studied up on Albus’s favorite jam, because Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 4 of Half-Blood Prince, “Horace Slughorn.” That’s how I imagine that “Oho” sounds.

Eric: I was going to say, that’s a unique take on that.

Andrew: Like the Pillsbury Doughboy. [in a high voice] “Ooh-ooh, ooh-ooh!”

Eric: Kind of sounds like Super Mario. “Woo-hoo! Wah-hah!”

Andrew: [laughs] If you love MuggleCast and want to help keep this show tidier than a home Slughorn has blown through, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and by joining, you’ll get instant access to two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month, plus ad-free episodes, access to our livestreams, a personal video “Thank you” message from one of the four MuggleCasters, a new physical gift delivered by owl each year, and much more. Laura, what are we doing in bonus MuggleCast this week?

Laura: In bonus this week, we’re going to be playing an old school game of “Would You Rather?”, except it’s going to be wizarding world edition, so think things like, “Would you rather have Snape as your Head of House, or Umbridge as your Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher?” I heard from a little bird before we started recording that the lineup of “Would You Rather?” scenarios we have for this week is not dirty enough to go behind the paywall, so I have a feeling there’s going to be a follow-up segment to this one where we get a little more fast and loose.

Micah: Hey, who are you calling little?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Who are you calling a bird?”

Eric: You’re the little bird?

Micah: Big bird.

Laura: I was trying not to throw anyone under the bus.

Andrew: Well, it’ll be a fun edition of bonus MuggleCast, so don’t miss that on our Patreon. But if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear. And a reminder, our merch store now has some lower prices on things like T-shirts, so visit MuggleCastMerch.com, click the overstock store link at the top, and you’ll find previous year’s Patreon gifts that we still have some extras of, and we’ll get those gifts out to you if you want to order from our overstock store.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, let’s get to Chapter by Chapter, and this week, we’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 4 – ooh-ooh, woo-hoo – “Horace Slughorn.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Now I’m just going to be thinking about Mario the rest of the recording.

Micah: That’s Mario. That is not…

Eric: “Waahhh!” We last discussed Chapter 4 of Half-Blood Prince on MuggleCast number 381, which had a fun title! It was called “Chair Today, Gone Tomorrow.”

Andrew: Ooh, clever.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 381.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve] /

Andrew: Dumbledore says he’s reading a magazine in the bathroom, and he’s like, “I do love knitting patterns.” Between this and his admission that he loves a raspberry jam, we should have known after reading this chapter that he was gay, no question. I can’t believe we were all so shocked.

Eric: I don’t know what you mean, Andrew.

Andrew: Well, it’s just a little gay to love knitting and raspberry jam. Pat, you actually knit. Did you know he was gay once you read that line?

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Pat: I always thought he was well before this, because it always talked of him wearing high-heeled boots.

[Eric laughs]

Pat: And always a lot of… not that purple’s a gay color, but…

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Pat: … more voluptuously purple robes and stuff.

Andrew: Vibrant, yeah. Gay in the classic sense. Happy and colorful.

Eric: But why raspberry jam? Why is raspberry jam gay? Because it’s fruity?

Andrew: That just seems… it’s just very fruity.

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: I don’t… it’s just… it’s beyond strawberry. It’s just extra. [laughs]

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: I was so annoying. I’m sorry.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: “This memory is everything.”

Eric: I love that discussion!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I feel like we’ve had a couple of those now at this point, haven’t we?

Eric: What?

Micah: Andrew calling out Dumbledore?

Eric: Oh, maybe.

Laura: But it’s with love, right? Because you’re a Dumbledore apologist.

Eric: Times change.

Andrew: Yeah. The knitting pattern thing, I still stand by. The raspberry jam thing, that’s a stretch now, I believe.

Laura: Oh, have you evolved on that? Is raspberry jam no longer gay?

Andrew: No, it’s just a jam. It’s just another jam that anybody could enjoy.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, that’s good to know. That means I can start buying it again.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Well, it’s a good thing that we focused so heavily on Dumbledore’s interest in knitting patterns and basically what he was doing to keep himself out of the room and leave Harry and Slughorn alone last time, because we’re not going to focus on that too much this time. But it goes without saying that so much of this chapter is focused on the Dumbledore and Harry dynamic with the introduction to Slughorn. So this chapter picks up with Dumbledore and Harry traveling to recruit Horace Slughorn, and Harry asks, “Yo, Albus, why do I need to come for this? How can I help with this?” And Dumbledore is, per usual, super cryptic about it, and he just says something like, “Oh, I’m sure you’ll find a way to be useful,” ever the chess master that he is. But what is so interesting about the setting that we are seeing is this is a Muggle neighborhood, so we’re getting a glimpse of normal life after the chaos of the previous book. So we’re really exposed to this suburban calm, which feels really strange given the rising tension in the wizarding world. But an interesting contrast, Andrew, that you called out here – I want to throw to you – is we’re wandering into this Muggle environment. Harry has spent the vast majority of his life living in a Muggle neighborhood, and he has a bit of a strange idea about how he and Dumbledore could track Slughorn down, doesn’t he?

Andrew: Well, yeah, he says, “How about we just Apparate into this mystery man’s house?” And I thought this was funny, because Dumbledore says, “To Apparate just into this man’s house, sight unseen, would be just as rude as kicking down the front door.” But this is the same guy who just, in the last chapter, basically invited himself into the Dursleys’ home, and I think this shows just how little respect he has for the Dursleys. He does have respect for fellow wizards; he’s not going to Apparate into their homes, but the Dursleys, he’ll just waltz right in.

Eric: Yep, and it’s even later in the evening.

Laura: Well, he kind of coerced them, right? Sorry, go ahead, Eric.

Eric: Yeah, it’s even later in the evening. It was 11:00 p.m. when he showed up on the Dursleys’; now it’s about midnight!

Andrew: Yeah. But it also got me thinking about this idea of Apparating into a wizard’s home, and could you imagine if wizards didn’t, A, have the common courtesy to not Apparate into others’ homes, and B, have their own protection charms in place? It would be a disaster. I mean, imagine you’re sitting in your room right now, and somebody just Apparates in. Or you’re asleep, or you’re doing funny business in your bedroom or bathroom, and somebody just Apparates right in.

Micah: Well, Slughorn was taking a bath.

Andrew: He was! Yeah, good point.

Eric: There’s got to be something like a doorbell, right? Something that prevents somebody from just barging in, but I guess probably, then again, maybe not.

Micah: Mev does raise a good point in the Discord, though, Andrew; she says that at least Dumbledore did let Harry know that he was coming to Privet Drive. It’s not like he just showed up unannounced.

Andrew: Yeah. My point is the Dursleys didn’t want him to come in, and he did anyway.

Eric: Well, something that interests me is just how the past few chapters have really shown how much in the minority wizards are. Snape lives in this Muggle home in the middle of Muggleville. The Dursleys, obviously – as you just said, Andrew – the Dursleys are in a huge Muggle area. And now Slughorn, too, does not have this grand, sweeping estate; he’s bumming on couches at these other homes of Muggles that he finds, because there just aren’t many wizards at all in the world. It’s mostly a Muggle world, and the wizards are just stones skipping on the river of it.

Andrew: Slughorn probably enjoys crashing in Muggles’ homes, I would think.

Eric: I think he likes the variety, yeah.

Andrew: And this concern that Dumbledore has about entering a wizard’s home without their permission, while Slughorn is literally moving into Muggles’ homes every week…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: This is all so messed up. And then Dumbledore asks Slughorn if he can use his bathroom. I mean, it’s just… [laughs] It’s so weird.

Laura: I mean, he’s just treating it like an Airbnb. Slughorn has just been hopping from Airbnb to Airbnb for the last year.

Andrew: Yeah, without the Airbnb owner’s permission.

Laura: Right. Well, I mean, when you’re magical, who needs permission? Except don’t Apparate into someone’s house, apparently.

Micah: But Muggle homes makes sense, though, because he’s not going to go stay with other wizard folks. He needs to be undercover, and what better place…? There’s so many more options available to him if he’s going to go into Muggle homes.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah, so I mean, clearly Slughorn is a little bit ahead of the game, if you were to compare him to the Ministry, for example. We also get this mention of the pamphlets that the Ministry sends out with the Daily Prophet. And remember, a few episodes ago we were laughing about how pretty useless these things seem to be, and Dumbledore pretty much confirms that for Harry in being like, “Well, for example, you didn’t ask me my favorite flavor of jam. Or apparently that my favorite flavor of jam makes me gay.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: So it’s just very clear that… say what you will about Slughorn; he does have a pretty good understanding of what’s going on, and that’s why he’s taking all the precautions that he’s taking.

Eric: I think, too, maybe the precautions that he’s being shown to have taken set you up for believing that he’s going to be the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, because it is not revealed – his true profession – until day one of Hogwarts in a little bit. So you tend to think, “Oh, he’s good at concealment. We’ve heard Aurors do that as part of their test.” So it’s kind of a neat little red herring, I think, to have you suspect something entirely different than what it is we’re getting here.

Laura: Definitely.

Micah: And I don’t think the raspberry jam thing really is that bad; the advice that the Ministry is giving isn’t that bad, because Harry should have known better than to have not challenged Dumbledore at Privet Drive, especially given the fact that a Death Eater posed as his Defense Against the Dark Arts professor for his entire fourth year, and Harry has just left what we know to be his only place of protection outside of Hogwarts, and he’s Apparated to this village in the middle of nowhere. I say what better way, what better ruse, to lure him out of his safety net and murder him?

Eric: Than to pose as Dumbledore.

Micah: Dumbledore could have been somebody totally different.

Eric: Thank you!

Micah: And let’s not forget – I was going to bring this up later – but this hand, right? This black hand that’s been referenced four times in this chapter.

Eric: Well, it could be a sign that he’s not…

Micah: Maybe that’s a tell. Maybe that’s not who he really appears to be.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I was kind of seeing the numerous times that Dumbledore brings up the hand as a way to kind of test Harry’s critical thinking. He says he’ll tell Harry later, but maybe he wants him to start thinking now about what could possibly be going on with his hand. And ultimately, he’s not going to come to the answer himself, but it’s probably good practice for Harry to be thinking about that on his own without Dumbledore giving him the answers.

Eric: But that’s such a good point about how often Harry has been around imposters and people who would want to do him harm. He should absolutely be taking the Ministry’s decent advice and asking a follow-up question here or there. I don’t know where Dumbledore and Harry both get off on insulting these pamphlets.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They both kind of have a laugh about it! And it’s like, look, these are the type of people that just because a solution that’s touted out is not 100% foolproof or interesting, you’re going to crap all over it and get fewer people to put stock in it? Come on, guys.

Andrew: Well, these are the two people who believed most that Voldemort was back while everybody else was ignoring them.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: So I can see why they’re like, “Oh, now they’re getting serious about it.”

Eric: They’re very chummy about it.

Andrew: But I agree with you; it is still good advice.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It is too little, too late, though, I think, in a lot of ways. This is advice that would have probably been really helpful a year ago, but at this point, Voldemort and the Death Eaters kind of have their claws sunk in to society and the Ministry, so it really becomes a question of, “How helpful is Ministry advice at this point?”

Eric: Right.

Laura: But we’re also reminded of the political instability and the violence that’s going on. Harry hears about this a little bit earlier in the book, but Slughorn brings it up again in talking about his reasoning for being in hiding the way he is: the assassinations that have happened recently, Madam Bones as well as Emmeline Vance. And Slughorn opines… he’s like, “Hey, if those two got taken out with all of their Ministry protections, how safe am I?” And I guess my question to that would be do we think their Ministry protections were foolproof? Because I think at this point, the Death Eaters have a death grip on the Ministry, so I just wonder how effective a safety detail is at this point.

Eric: Like if there was a mole or something?

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It’s hard to say. We hear that Voldemort himself came to do the killing, at least for one of the murders, so I think that if Voldemort really wants to find you, he’s going to find a way. Anything short of the protection for Lily and James – and even that failed – is not going to do it. So it’s pretty scary to think.

Micah: The Ministry is probably the one place you don’t want to be working right now…

Laura: Right.

Micah: … if you’re somebody who is on Voldemort’s bad list, right? Or hit list, I should say. And the other place you probably don’t want to be is in the Order of the Phoenix, and those are the two areas in the people that you mentioned that were targeted, that were mentioned, in Emmeline Vance and Amelia Bones. But I agree with what was said about if Voldemort wants to get you, he will. It’s just a matter of time.

Laura: He will. And something else that gets called out in this pamphlet that Harry gets to learn about – very convenient timing for this, because it’ll become relevant later – we get to learn about the Inferi, which are Voldemort’s undead army. Dumbledore says, “Yeah, he killed enough people the first time around to have a whole army of Inferi.” And it’s perfect timing for Halloween, but it also reminded me of all the theories that were going on back in the day around what dead characters we might potentially run into as Inferi. I do remember there was a particularly dark fan theory that Harry’s parents might have been enlisted into the Inferi army and that he might come face to face with them. Thankfully, that did not come to pass. But it does kind of feel a little shocking to me that there wasn’t an opportunity for Harry or Dumbledore or someone to see an Inferi that they recognize. Do we think that they’re too decayed at that point to be recognizable, or…?

Micah: From later in this book?

Eric: I think that Dumbledore is simply too distracted to recognize the completely distinct face and visage of Regulus Black at the cave at the end from the watery depths that have preserved him. Dumbledore’s just got other stuff on his mind. It’s terrifying. I think the Inferi are in this book exactly as much as they need to be, and not a page more.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I’m grateful for that. There’s actually… I’m reminded of a song by The Mudbloods called “Inferi Are Terrifying” or “Scary.” It’s really good stuff. But yeah, they’re horrifying. And you wouldn’t want to see… it’s next level insult to not only murder these people, but then to use them for your army.

Andrew: Well, that’s sort of… I was wondering if the author maybe thought it was too dark to have, let’s say, Harry’s parents, or Sirius… I guess Sirius wouldn’t come back, because of the veil. But other dead characters, Cedric Diggory [laughs] coming back as Inferi, because it’s just too dark a thought, I think, for Harry to have to face his parents, who are now his enemies, and then potentially kill them again? I don’t know. That might be a step too far.

Micah: It’s very reminiscent of Game of Thrones with the White Walkers.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And their ability to resurrect. Won’t spoil too much. But yeah, I do remember those theories, and they were definitely scary to think about, that that could happen somewhere down the road. It also makes me think about Hogwarts Legacy and how much of a pain in the ass it is to deal with the Inferi sometimes.

Laura: Oh my gosh, they’re so annoying.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: They’re not hard to beat; it’s just there’s so many of them. Wow, that took me back to Hogwarts Legacy days. But anywho, as a true crime girly myself, I really appreciated the job that Slughorn did trying to disguise his hideout. So Harry and Dumbledore enter a scene fit for a true crime story. There’s smashed furniture, ripped open cushions, feathers everywhere, glass, blood spatter on the walls… but Dumbledore is pretty quick to realize that this is all a ruse, and he gives an armchair, a.k.a. Slughorn, a nice sharp jab with his wand, which reveals Slughorn’s true identity as an armchair.

Eric: Man. Dumbledore really leans into it too. Slughorn… the first thing he says is that, “You poked way harder than you needed to,” and I think this Dumbledore… there’s an edge to him; there’s an edge to Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore is either angry with Horace, or not afraid of, I guess, just even having that edge. Despite what he told Harry, he’s not being polite. He’s here to basically ensure that Slughorn goes back to Hogwarts, and I don’t think he thinks very highly of Slughorn; what he thinks highly of or respects is the missing puzzle piece that Horace has in his memories. But you can just tell that Dumbledore has almost an axe to grind, and even is just like, “Harry, you deal with this man.”

Andrew: The poking kind of lines up with what I think I’ve said in recent episodes, that Dumbledore doesn’t really feel like wasting any time right now; he just wants to get down to business. So he’s not going to play any games, like, “Oh, where’s Slughorn?” He’s just going to poke and activate him.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And then I will say, though, the movies did it better, where his head kind of pops out of the couch first before fully turning back.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Whereas reading the scene a couple times, it seems like he just instantly transformed from armchair to Horace. But that’s besides the point. I will also say Dumbledore is in a bit of a good mood overall throughout this chapter, and I think it speaks to how confident he is that he will – he and Harry – will be able to get Slughorn to go back to Hogwarts. He’s not stressed about this; he knows parading Harry in front of Slughorn is going to do the trick, and that’s why he’s just generally in a good mood this chapter.

Eric: I agree.

Laura: Yeah, and we see Slughorn is a little bit grumpy at first, because he’s onto Dumbledore’s plan. Slughorn definitely has an ego on him, but he’s not dumb. As soon as he lays eyes on Harry, he puts two and two together and realizes exactly what Dumbledore’s plan is to get him to come back to Hogwarts. [laughs] And in hindsight, it’s pretty clear this is another one of Dumbledore’s chess moves to get the right pieces in place, using Harry to lure Slughorn back to Hogwarts, and then also use Harry to get the unaltered memory from Slughorn. I wanted to ask, just because we criticize because we care, but one of the characters that we do criticize a whole lot is Dumbledore. How do we feel about this plan?

Micah: I think, as you like to say, Laura, multiple things can be true. I think the move is good for Dumbledore, but it’s also really good for Slughorn, because I don’t think there’s a safer place for him to be than at Hogwarts. And if anybody… going back to what we were talking about earlier with Amelia Bones and Emmeline Vance, if there’s anyone who has a target on their back right now, it would be Slughorn, knowing what he knows. I mean, he holds the key to Voldemort’s immortality. We don’t know that at this moment, but that memory really is everything, and I say protect him at all costs.

Andrew: I think Slughorn does start talking himself into the idea that Hogwarts is the safest place for him to be, but he also hints that he doesn’t like being on the move so much, because Harry asks him how his favorite students currently stay in touch with him, and Slughorn is like, “Well, they don’t, because I don’t have a permanent address. I haven’t… I’ve been on the move for the last year.” He isn’t getting those precious Quidditch tickets or the inside gossip at Gringotts! This sucks! He has to hide as a couch to avoid Dumbledore; this isn’t good at all. Only good thing is maybe that tub he’s got in his house right now. But he’s also shaken up about Amelia being killed, and as I observed on the show a couple chapters ago, if she isn’t safe, as the Ministry of Magic’s top cop, who is? So maybe Hogwarts is the best place to be protected right now.

Eric: It’s uncanny how they just kind of walk into this. Harry has not been prepped beforehand, right? He just happens to ask… and Harry has no idea what he’s doing too. He’s making polite conversation with this guy who he doesn’t even really like, because Slughorn, among many things, is not altogether very likable. He’s kind of prejudiced, and we’ll get into all that later. But Harry just kind of stumbles into saying exactly the right thing that convinces Slughorn to return, and it’s really neat. It’s uncanny to see it unfold, because we’ve known Harry for five years now, and this is the kind of stuff that he would normally say to keep a conversation going, but it’s exactly what Slughorn needs to hear to make the decision. It’s kind of clever.

Micah: Yeah. And one of the things that I found to be interesting – or at least a little bit curious – is that he mentions that he’s been on the run for a year, and so this means that he went on the run not long after the events of the Triwizard Tournament. So my question is, was he getting intel from all these connections that he had? Did the Dark Mark from the Quidditch World Cup scare him? Maybe was he corresponding with Dumbledore? Because the other question here is how did Dumbledore find him? He would have had to be doing some kind of recon. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I was wondering that too.

Micah: But being on the run for years seems like a pretty long period of time.

Laura: And it does really make me laugh at his whole “Why would I be hiding from the Death Eaters? What would they want with little old me?” routine that he tries to pull at first…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: … because Dumbledore is like, “So this whole masquerade… you did this for me, huh? Not for the Death Eaters?” And he’s like, “Oh, of course. Why would they want me?” It’s like, “Come on, man. We know exactly why you’re hiding.”

Andrew: “Little old me!”

Laura: But I wanted to ask, what does it say about Slughorn that he clearly isn’t pro-Voldemort, but he also doesn’t want to stick his neck out there to fight the good fight? And does that make him the most morally gray Slytherin we’ve met so far? Asterisk: Snape doesn’t count at this point in the series.

Micah: I think he feels responsible. I think he truly is holding himself accountable deep down inside for the fact that Voldemort is who he is right now, and I think that in and of itself is holding him back from moving forward.

Eric: But he’s also a man of startlingly low conviction, right? He’s not going to do the right thing. Even if he comes back to Hogwarts, it’s an entire year before he finally gives up the unedited version of the memory. He knows what Dumbledore is about; he knows that Dumbledore is trying to find Voldemort and the secrets of Voldemort. Why not just give Dumbledore the memory as a piece offering saying, “Hey, thanks for letting me be safe all year back at your school. Here’s the piece of info that you want to know; I hope you don’t fire me now that you’ve got it”? Something like that would be more courageous. So I do agree that he’s a gray area character, and probably the most gray area Slytherin at this point.

Andrew: Yeah. I used the word coward; I’m hesitant to really call him a coward, but he is just somebody who’s sort of just… as Robert is putting it, he’s content with sitting on the sidelines and just waiting for it to play out, and he could stay in hiding for as long as he needs to and wait for this to blow over.

Eric: Yeah, he’s not… I think a Gryffindor trait would be righting an injustice in the world, or going out there and fighting evil or whatever. For Slughorn, unless it directly affects him… and even then, he has to be guilted for so long to finally do the right thing. I think that that shows who he is, really, because this is not something that’s affecting him. What does it matter to him that Voldemort is out there longer? And the secret to defeating him, which only Slughorn basically can confirm, because he’s the only one that Tom Riddle ever confided in about this… he’s not going to do the right thing because it doesn’t… he’s not incentivized to do it, especially given… eh.

Micah: No, I don’t disagree, but in fairness to him – and we’re a ways from Deathly Hallows – he does duel Voldemort, and I think there is something to be said for the fact that, after everything that’s happened, the history between those two, that he would, as the Head of Slytherin House, step out there and duel his former student.

Eric: I’d have to reread it, but if Voldemort is coming at you, you’re going to duel Voldemort, if you don’t want to die. [laughs]

Micah: Or run. I mean, he could have ran.

Eric: He could have run! Well, that’s the thing. Okay, I’ll say this to his credit, in case everybody thinks that I’m going against good old walrus-y mustache man: He sticks around! He’s at Hogwarts in year seven, isn’t he?

Micah: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

Eric: That’s a full year that he’s there.

Micah: Him, McGonagall, Shacklebolt. All three of them at once duel Voldemort.

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: Max that.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I think it is an interesting observation to point out that Slughorn is kind of like the patient zero of enabling Tom Riddle to do what he ultimately goes on to do, because we know it’s not just Slughorn, right? Snape is part of it too; Peter Pettigrew is part of it. All of these people enable him to do what he does, but Slughorn is the start of it, and I think he knows that, and he’s deeply ashamed of it and, probably for his reputation’s sake, terrified about that information getting out there. I think it’s fair to say that Slughorn is really self-serving. At the same time, when Voldemort finally shows up at his doorstep and he’s forced to make a decision, he does make the right one, but I think it does say something less than admirable about his character that it takes that long. Especially since it’s his fault.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, I mean, everyone can benefit from him doing the right thing sooner, and it’s a real shame that he doesn’t. But here’s the thing where I relate to Slughorn the most: Dumbledore says he likes his comforts. And I could see myself… you know how sometimes we just distract ourselves for a little bit if we have something we know we should do. And I mean, I’ve never withheld a huge secret that could change the course of wizarding history, but at the same time, you can distract yourself with a routine of new city every week, and travel, see the world, see places… it’s easy to forget that you’re sitting on this time bomb, or that people might seek to use you or whatever. And I’ve completely distracted myself; I’ll bury into a new video game. All of a sudden, 80 hours later, I still haven’t set up a doctor’s appointment I should set up. [laughs] It’s so easy to get this comfort. What Slughorn has set up for himself is actually quite impressive, a network of students that…

Andrew: And being on the run, actually – to your point, Eric – probably helps distract him from the realities that he’s afraid to confront, if you’re kind of mentally staying on the run. And I think the fact that the first thing we hear about him is that he was just in the bath speaks to his laid-back attitude right now. It’s symbolic of just his position on the war.

Eric: Wow. I like that a lot. Also, he knows that this is the last chance he’s going to have all year to take a bath, because there’s no real facilities at Hogwarts.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, the prefects’ bathroom. That has some nice tubs, I think.

Eric: Yeah, but that’s for the prefects.

Micah: I think also, it really comes down to how he probably thinks he’d be perceived by others, especially those that he collected over the years, to be revealed as the one who was responsible for Voldemort’s rise to power, ultimately. Not that… I mean, I want to be careful here, too, because it was clear Voldemort was up to no good before he asked what he did of Slughorn; it was more that Slughorn affirmed what he was looking to ultimately create. But still, the fact that he knew how Voldemort was able to survive, and he didn’t share that information with anybody… I think if he knew that it was somehow going to come out, he’s more concerned about his own reputation.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, especially since at the time, you would think… I mean, clearly we see in the memory, it makes him uncomfortable that Tom asks for this, and the fact that he doesn’t think to go to Headmaster Dippet and be like, “So we might have a problem…”

Micah: With one of our students?

Eric: “Little psycho has now asked me how to do this,” yeah.

Andrew: Just a little heads-up about what just happened.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Speaking of his relationship with Tom Riddle, I’m wondering if this line… “Harry had been sure Slughorn would be one of those wizards who could not bear to hear Voldemort’s name spoken aloud, and was not disappointed: Slughorn gave a shudder and a squawk of protest.” Is this line a mild foreshadow alert? Or maybe a purposeful misdirection? Because Harry might think he’s just another wizard recoiling from the name “Voldemort,” but perhaps he’s recoiling because he’s in denial about helping Voldemort with Horcruxes. [laughs] “Don’t remind me of that man.”

Laura: I think you’re on to something there. I think it’s probably deeply troubling to him in a way that he doesn’t feel like he can express without outing himself as the creator…

Eric: There wouldn’t have even been a Voldemort if it weren’t for what Slughorn did. I mean, not in the same way, right? It just would be Tom Riddle, and he would have died after the first battle if he never found Horcruxes.

Andrew: I’m going to lean on purposeful misdirection here, not necessarily a foreshadow alert.

Eric: Yeah, but it’s clever. I mean, this just shows his character, too… and we talked about this before; I don’t think Slughorn is a full-on coward, but he’s exhibiting cowardice here. But even Hermione or Ron shy away from saying Voldemort’s name, and these are two Gryffindors too. So I think the difference is for Harry, especially because he’s with Dumbledore, and Harry and Dumbledore both never have had a problem ever saying Voldemort’s name, that it really pits… it shows you where Slughorn stands between Harry and Dumbledore, and everyone else. And if Slughorn were the kind of character that wasn’t afraid to say Voldemort’s name, well, that would actually be really interesting. I don’t know too many characters that don’t have a problem with it, so they would be very heroic and brave and not fearful, and that’s just not who Slughorn is.

Laura: I was struck, in rereading this chapter, in realizing that Harry, by meeting Slughorn, gets a very different reaction to fame than the one that he’s used to getting. He’s usually used to just being met by shock and awe, and certainly people would love to get in tight with him so that they could name drop him and all of these other things, but that’s not something Harry has ever been… it’s not something he’s ever fallen prey to. But it’s clear that Slughorn kind of fancies himself the mentor and influencer of the rich and famous, and I feel like we all know someone like this, right? Someone who likes to brag and name drop and overemphasize the perks they get for who they know.

Andrew: Yeah. Slughorn would have loved Instagram. He would have loved taking selfies with his group, with his Slug Club gang, and showing off…

Micah: In the tub.

Andrew: [laughs] I don’t know about in the tub, but tagging all the friends in the Slug Club, hoping they would all repost it to their feeds. He would be a total fame W-word.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And what might that be?

Laura: What’s that word?

Andrew: Walrus. Fame walrus.

Laura: [laughs] A fame walrus. There we go.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I wanted to ask y’all, too, how much do we buy Slughorn’s story here? He kind of runs through this list of all of these amazing perks and benefits he gets by remaining in contact with these students who’ve gone on to do really big, important things, and in some cases, become famous. Do we actually think he is as highly regarded as he says he is? Or do these people just give him this stuff to make him shut up and go away? [laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s impossible to know. I do get the distinct impression that when he says he calls up the editor of the Daily Prophet, who will always take his call just to hear his opinion on any day’s news that he wants to call… that’s BS, and that guy is tired of Slughorn calling.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That sounds exhausting, yeah.

Eric: No, because what editor of a major paper has time for that? Absolutely none. In fact, that relationship, I can say with 100% certainty, is grating for that poor person, and because you feel like you owe this guy your time, but he keeps calling…

Andrew: And you’re hearing opinions from people within the newsroom every day about the news of the day. That’s your job.

Eric: Yeah, let him do his job, man! But what I find endearing is I actually do totally believe Slughorn… this is where he finds his joy. He’s really proud of these relationships.

Andrew: He’s a people person!

Eric: Yeah, he’s really proud of his top ten lists of all of his friends.

Andrew: Yeah, I do think that these people he surrounds himself with do enjoy Slughorn’s company. He can just get along with any person that he wants. Will he get a little grating sometimes? Sure, I can imagine that happening. But I think these people like to be with him, because otherwise, I do think they would shut him out permanently.

Eric: Well, and there is… it’s a truism in life; it’s a fact of life that it is who you know, in some cases, that get you these types of prime positions that Slughorn offers. And so there’s… Slughorn really is offering a concrete kind of social status that is a class above… we’re going to get into this when it happens later in the book, but I think that the reason he has so many contacts still is because people are actually also genuinely grateful for knowing him.

Micah: He’s really one of the first – and maybe only, in these books – Slytherin who we see willingly branch out beyond the comforts of his own House, because he wants the best of the best, right? Regardless of what House they’re in or what their blood status may be. And I just think that… I think he talks a good game. I think he’s married to fame. We don’t know much about his personal life, whether or not he has a partner or children or anything of that sort, and I would likely assume that he doesn’t, because I think the most important thing to him is that web of influence. It is the Slug Club, both those that join it in this book and those who are alumni of it, that he constantly taps into. Now, in terms of how much he’s fluffing this up, I’m not sure. I could totally see all of it being true. But I like what you said earlier, Eric, about the editor just getting so annoyed by Slughorn’s calls.

Eric: He has to, yeah. But think about this, too, is that Slughorn is trying to maybe impress Harry, or show Harry how connected he is, so these are the examples he gives. And it’s nice that you can kind of see maybe that it isn’t all super peachy, only mostly peachy. But Slughorn at his core is a teacher who… I think those who should be teachers are the ones that would give it away for free without any kind of expectation of something in return, and Slughorn is not that kind of character, right? So the instilling knowledge in others… Slughorn chooses to be a teacher because of what it’s going to give him maybe in the end, other than the satisfaction of having instructed people. So it’s just a different type of person that it is capable, possible, to be.

Andrew: Make the real life connection: Do y’all have somebody who maybe calls you too much, texts you too much? I have an uncle like this who I wish would never call me.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: He’s calling me for tech help. I’m like, “You have three children younger than me who can help you with your Apple problems. Why are you coming to me for this?” [laughs]

Laura: He just misses you.

Andrew: That’s probably what it is. But come on, I don’t need this. Talk to your kids about how to…

Eric: So Andrew, should I not call you for tech help all the time? We speak at least three times a week…

Andrew: No!

Laura: In Harry’s conversation with Slughorn – because of course, at this point, this is when Dumbledore has conveniently excused himself to the bathroom to go read about knitting patterns – Slughorn proceeds to tell Harry that Harry’s mother was actually one of his favorite students, and she herself was a member of the Slug Club. And he ventures this opinion that he was shocked at learning that she was Muggle-born, because she was so good, he’d have assumed she would have been pure-blood, and this is where we really get to see how Slughorn’s need to collect top talent outweighs his casual bigotry. Because to him, it’s like, “Well, yeah, she’s Muggle-born, but she’s really, really good, so that kind of cancels out her being Muggle-born, right?”

Andrew: [laughs] So no problem.

Laura: And Harry is like, “Hey, my best friend is Muggle-born, and she’s the best in our year,” and Slughorn is just like, “Huh, funny how that happens sometimes!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “I guess she’s one of the good ones!”

Laura: That’s basically what this is. And I really do love how this aspect of his character is reflected. I think a lot of times in these books, we think of the most bold and overt examples of bigotry…

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: … but the reality is – in this series, but also in real life – that many otherwise well-meaning people carry these biases, oftentimes unconsciously. Just adds a different, unsettling layer of interpretation to all of this.

Eric: Here’s a red flag/rule of thumb that I’ve picked up over the last, let’s say, ten years in the real world: If you have to start a sentence with “You mustn’t think I’m prejudiced, but..” you’re lost. It’s too late. It’s too late. You’re gone.

Andrew: Right. “I’m not racist, but…”

Eric: “Not to be racist…” or “I know this sounds bad, but…”

Andrew: “I don’t see color, but…”

Eric: Yeah, you’ve lost the plot there a little bit. Maybe rephrase.

Andrew: I think it just demonstrates a lack of self-awareness that Slughorn carries as well. He’s talking about Harry’s deceased mother and not realizing the bigotry.

Eric: Well, that’s funny, because he thinks he’s relating to Harry, and instead he’s turning Harry off from him, and his foot is firmly in his own mouth here.

Micah: Well, it starts when he’s talking about Sirius and he just doesn’t have the context to the Harry/Sirius relationship. And then there’s also the comment about wanting the set of him and Regulus, and he never ended up getting Regulus – important name drop, right? That he’s included as early on in Half-Blood Prince as he is. But yeah, it’s just… there’s something very sleazy that comes across about Slughorn and his character, and I wonder… we don’t necessarily get it as much, because I feel like there’s a softer side in the movies with Jim Broadbent’s portrayal of Slughorn, where he’s almost kind of just like this… I don’t know. He’s more of a lovable character.

Eric: He looks like he’d be soft to sit on, just like the couch version of him was soft to sit on.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: But yeah, I feel like Broadbent’s portrayal of Slughorn… the Slytherin doesn’t come through as much as it does in the books.

Eric: Well, and to put a cap on that, this whole scene where he’s talking to Harry about his mom and Mudbloods – or sorry, Muggle-borns – being talented reminds me of the conversation in year one with Draco Malfoy. “You don’t want to be making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there. Shake my hand, Potter.” And Harry doesn’t touch it! Harry doesn’t want anything to do with this Slytherin view of the world that Draco and now Horace Slughorn are shown to embody.

Micah: Yeah. Well, and one other fun fact that we learned earlier this week is that in the new audiobooks, Horace Slughorn is going to be played by Bill Nighy, so definitely a conflict of character there going from Scrimgeour to Slughorn.

Laura: Yeah. I’ll be interested to see his portrayal, because I do agree; I think the Slughorn that we got in the films was a softer Slughorn. I mean, I liked it; I thought Jim Broadbent was brilliant, but he was a good deal more likable in the movies than he was in the books. Is that fair to say?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, and I like him in the books, but yeah, there’s this distinct tone of… I want it to – in the eventual HBO Max series, too – I want it to sit and be uncomfortable, because that is where you show the full breadth and width of these deep characters in this series, and the ones that are especially gray. We need to spend some time in that discomfort and figure out if we even like this guy. Harry is not sure.

Andrew: And a little clarification for our audience: When we say Bill Nighy, we do not mean the Science Guy. We mean Bill Nighy, who was in the movies.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: [imitating Bill Nighy as Scrimgeour] “These are dark times, there is no denying it.”

Andrew: [to the tune of the Bill Nye the Science Guy theme song] “Slug, Slug, Slug, Slug!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Bill Nighy… as Horace Slughorn.

Laura: Amazing. Well, before we wrap up the chapter here, I did just want to pose the question: I think it’s really easy to look at the Slug Club and kind of be dismissive of it, think it’s unfair. But is it really such a bad thing in principle? In real life, we have academic societies and fraternities, professional networking. We have all of these things, and oftentimes… at the very least at a collegiate level, oftentimes there are professors who are the sponsors of these things. So is it really that unusual?

Andrew: The problem to me is that this is a teacher running the organization. This is his group, his club. Yes, teachers will run or help run clubs at schools, but this is the Slug Club. This is like either you’re cool enough to be pals with one of the professors, or you’re not. I just think it’s so blatant with how he’s playing favorites, and if I were a student at the school and I wasn’t invited into the Slug Club, but people I knew were, or just seeing the club and seeing who’s on the list, it’d make me feel insecure and like I’m less than these other students.

Eric: Yeah, that’s 100% it. And I appreciate that in this book, we see people get jilted about it. Ginny is not involved until she’s witnessed by Slughorn. Hermione is pissed. Ron is upset, but… oh well, think that’s the right call. But to your point, Andrew, with Slughorn being at the center of it all, when I was in my one year of undergrad in Chicago, the school that I was at was very much making a point to have professors that worked in the field they teach, right? So when the time came and when it was… the reason for that is that they have an in or can actually speak to experience. Now, Slughorn has a network of people, but he himself has not been wherever he’s sending his students. The purpose of the Slug Club… like you said, it’s his club, and everyone knows it. It’s all about Sluggy. It’s all about Horace.

Andrew: It’s in the name!

Micah: Sluggy-bear.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, if you had a name like that, the best thing you could possibly do with it is make a Slug Club.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s pretty neat.

Micah: I don’t really have any issue with it.

Andrew: Wow.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I really like the fact that he is building a network of Hogwarts alumni. All schools have alumni networks, and…

Andrew: Alumni, but the Slug Club is actively happening within the school, too.

Micah: Yeah, but he’s curating it for when they graduate Hogwarts.

Andrew: You’re just saying this because you’re in the Slug Club.

Micah: He’s thinking about their careers much more than any other professor is.

Eric: Micah thinks he’s going to make it in the Slug Club. Boy, do we have news for him.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, is this your audition?

Micah: These things exist.

Laura: I mean, there genuinely are academic societies for high-performing students to network in.

Andrew: Oh, I wouldn’t know. [laughs]

Micah: Exactly.

Laura: I’m not saying whether or not that’s fair, but it is a thing.

Micah: As Ravenclaws, Laura and I would find ourselves invited by Professor Slughorn.

Andrew: Spoken like a true Slug Club member.

Micah: You’re in his House! You’ve got to get an in somehow, Andrew.

Andrew: [laughs] I don’t want it!

Eric: To settle this part of the discussion, it’s Dumbledore himself that tells Harry that Horace really does have a knack for picking the students that will excel at whatever it is that he puts them into. And sure, some of that is like, had he given someone else a shot, could they be just as good? We’ll never know. But for the most part, Dumbledore is giving Horace, who he is annoyed with right now, credit for actually having some level of talent in his curating. As creepy or as bad as it feels or seems to collect people and all the ways in which it’s characterized as not being a good thing – and Horace is a giant spider and all of this other stuff – he still ultimately is getting people to find success, helping students find success.

Laura: Yeah, helping them make connections in the real world and everything too. Well, Dumbledore dangles Harry – the crown jewel, as he says he would be – in front of Slughorn just long enough to waltz out of the bathroom and say, “You know what, Horace? I know a lost cause when I see one.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “So you have fun breaking into Muggle homes for the foreseeable future, and we’ll just be on our way.” And of course, Slughorn breaks, and he’s like, “Okay, fine, Dumbledore, I’ll go. But I want a raise!”

Andrew: [laughs] I love that line.

Laura: And that’s where we leave him. Hey, you know? He knows what he’s worth.

Andrew: Dumbledore played him like a fiddle.

Laura: You’ve got to give it to him.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: And we do have some Dumbledore-related odds and ends.

Laura: I was going to say, you want to kick us off with those?

Andrew: Sure! Let’s start by praising Dumbledore.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: He shines at the end of the chapter here. We didn’t discuss it today; we don’t need to, but confronting Harry over the loss of Sirius, encouraging Harry to tell Ron and Hermione about the prophecy so that he’s not alone in his thoughts and feelings, and then telling Harry he’ll be teaching him some lessons this year. And I love this line: Harry is like, “What are you going to be teaching me?” And Dumbledore is like, “Oh, a little of this, a little of that.”

Micah: “I’ll teach you how to knit and make raspberry jam.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It’s home economics with Albus Dumbledore.

Andrew: Really two great chapters for Dumbledore in a row.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I agree with that. We talked about Dumbledore’s hand earlier, and it does – at least, by my count – get mentioned directly or indirectly four times in this chapter, so we’re meant to be paying attention to what’s going on with Dumbledore’s hand. And then one other thing: Dumbledore alludes to Harry still taking Potions in this shady shed convo that’s going down, because he says to him… because Harry is very hopeful about the fact that he’s not going to have to deal with Professor Snape, both for Occlumency lessons and potentially for Potions, to which Dumbledore says, “Don’t count your owls before they are delivered.” So that’s a little tip of the cap.

Eric: [laughs] Dumbledore has peeked at Harry’s test results.

Micah: Right.

Laura: Well, and he also knows that Slughorn doesn’t have as strict standards for Potions as Snape did.

Micah: Exactly. But we don’t know at this time that Slughorn is going to be taking over that post.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I love that you pointed out all of the mentions of Dumbledore’s hand, Micah, because there is one point where he makes kind of an exaggerated gesture of showing off the hand, the injured hand that also has the ring on it, and Slughorn definitely takes notice of that ring.

Andrew: [laughs] “Oohoo!”

Eric: Pretty interesting.

Micah: Yeah, good call.

Eric: It was a Horcrux.

Laura: Yep.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: All right, well, now we’re going to get into our MVP of the Week. This week’s: best perk Slughorn gets from his Slug Club alumni.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: The Quidditch tickets! That’d be so much fun to get tickets to games that you want to attend.

Micah: We could go together, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, sure.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m going to hand it to crystallized pineapple. I don’t quite know what it is, but it sounds delicious. I once had a tropical drink that was put into a pineapple, like the pineapple was hollowed out and it was the cup, and it was delicious.

Micah: I wonder if it’s just dried pineapple.

Laura: I think it’s just candied pineapple, yeah.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Y’all are going to want to make friends with somebody who responded to the Lynx Line in a couple minutes. You’ll see them talking about…

Eric and Laura: Ooh.

Micah: I’ll back you up, though, Eric; I’ll go for the hamper of sweets that Slughorn says he gets from Honeydukes, and the reason why is I looked this up: “hamper” is high end.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: This is high quality candy that he’s receiving. He’s not just getting the stuff that the other Hogwarts students pick up on their trips to Hogsmeade.

Eric: That’s funny because in the US, “hamper” is where you put your dirty laundry.

Micah: I know.

Laura: I was imagining a laundry hamper full of sweets. I was like, “Oh, they’re just sending him a lot of candy, okay.”

Eric: Just a rucksack. A bindle.

Laura: [laughs] And I’m going to go for that Gringotts insider knowledge. I’m sorry; money doesn’t buy happiness, but it doesn’t hurt. That’s all I’m saying.

[Andrew laughs]


Lynx Line


Laura: All right, now we’re going to get into our Lynx Line. MuggleCast listeners who are Slug Club members – the very special Slug Club members, as we spent so much time talking about today – over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, which is: Tell us about a talent or accomplishment that would get you recruited to the Slug Club. We wanted everyone to brag on themselves this week.

Eric: This is honestly one of my absolute favorite Lynx Lines that we’ve ever done.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: It’s too perfect.

Eric: It’s just so inspired, and it’s like, talk yourself up. What an opportunity.

Andrew: Matthew said, “I make cakes that look like things that aren’t cake. Perhaps I am cake, too. Slughorn would never know.”

Eric: If so, this is the first time we’ve read cake’s message to us on the show, for sure. Zachary says, “I think Slughorn would have me as the caterer for his events, rather than the house-elves. I’d bring a variety of Texas-style barbecue of smoked sausage, ribs, and brisket, along with cheesecakes made to his requests.” Zachary, if you are for hire, let us know. That sounds delicious.

Micah: Susan says, “I have made a few good cosplays and props over the years. Slughorn would be impressed with how convincing I was able to create a railgun out of a Nerf gun, foam, and paint with an impressive Zagreus cosplay (from the franchise Hades.)” Hopefully I said that correct.

Laura: Very cool. Oh, this is for you, Eric. Leah says, “I make small batch crystallized pineapple and pair it with candied ginger and chocolate honeycomb.” Oooh.

Eric: Okay, this sounds delectable, and I…

Laura: Leah, I’m going to need a hamper of that.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Leah, please tell me that it’s actually delicious, and not… I’ve been burned before on Turkish delight…

Laura: Oh, no, Turkish delight is disgusting.

Eric: … so if it’s something I read in a book and it’s actually good, I’m excited.

Andrew: Rachel kept it simple. She said, “I’m really good at untying knots.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That’s a cool talent. With your tongue?

Laura: Hey, comes in handy.

Eric: That’s very useful. If you rescue someone who’s tied up on a boat or a train track, who’s also in the Slug Club, they could be like, “Hey, come join. You’re really good at that.” Jessie says, “Are you kidding me? Of course Ol’ Sluggy would want me in the Slug Club! I’m famous! No big deal, but I’m kind of big name… I played Villager #8 in my high school’s production of the musical Beauty and the Beast.”

Micah: Wow.

Eric: I love that. Are you sure you don’t play Gaston, Jessie? Because you’ve got the right temperament for it.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Robert said he would offer Slughorn “a free physical gift each year, and the opportunity to cohost MuggleCast! (And, of course, a monthly Floo hangout.)”

Andrew: He created our Slug Club! Get it? Well done, Robert.

Eric: I love that.

Andrew: The Lynx Line is a great way to have your voice heard on the show, whether or not you’re listening live. We ask a new question every week, so become a member of our community today by going to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and receiving this and many more benefits, like bonus MuggleCast. If you have feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, and next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 5, “An Excess of Phlegm.” And this was just coming up in our Discord live chat right now, so I’ll also add next week we will be able to offer a review of the first full cast Harry Potter audiobook. We got a review copy from Audible, and we’ve been able to dive into it, and we’re excited to share our thoughts on that, so stay tuned for next week. Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and a lot more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: Upon his death, the famous playwright William Shakespeare left most of his property and fortune to his daughter, Susannah. However, he did leave something to his wife, whose name was Ann Hathaway. What did Shakespeare will to Ann Hathaway? The correct answer – and this is a very interesting case of last will and testament – the correct answer: his second best bed. I don’t know what that says about his relationship with his wife.

Laura: Oof.

Eric: Nevertheless, 46% of people did not look this up, which is very impressive. And correct answers were submitted by Ashley B.; Elvis Dumbledore; Eye of Newt, Toe of Frog; Hathaway-Hath-thy-Way; Janie Six Seven; Julie Anne Fae; Smiley Fries, Smiley Fries; Somebody showing up at Micah’s at 3:00 p.m.; Tangled Yarn; Tofu Tom; Very Best Bort; WallySaurus; and We Are Such Stuff as Dreams Are Made On. Okay, thanks to everyone who submitted. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: This one’s about knitting! There are two basic kinds of stitches in knitting. The first is called a knit. What’s the second called? Hopefully more people know this without looking it up. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website. MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch is a way to go directly to that page, or if you happen to be on our website – maybe you’re checking out transcripts, or our must-listens page, or any other cool thing that happens to be on there – click on “Quizzitch” from the nav bar at the top.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura and Micah: Bye.