Transcript #746

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #746, New ‘Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone’ TV Documentary Blows Us Away


Cold Open


Micah: They’re taking the time to be able to really add some things that make sense. Maybe there should be a coffee shop on Platform Nine and Three Quarters.

Andrew: Yeah, Mrs. Weasley needs a pick-me-up after taking those kids to the platform.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: She’s going to go for a drink after dropping those kids off.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Maybe there’s a bar there too.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies, and this week, we’re reacting to the brand new Finding Harry documentary, which is our second major look at the forthcoming Harry Potter TV show. They only announced this about… probably less than a week ago, right? Half-hour documentary. Premiered on HBO Max first; it’s going to be airing on HBO tonight. Overall thoughts?

Laura: I’m excited. This really feels so much closer to what I originally imagined when I was reading the books before the movies came out. And no shade to the movies – the movies did a really good job as well – but there’s so much less screen time, so they couldn’t spend the time needed to get the amount of detail that we’re getting in the TV show now. I’m really, really excited, and I actually felt respected as a fan…

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: … because it’s very clear that they’re trying to do this story justice, but they’re also trying to do the world justice, and it’s clearly very important to them that they get it right for the fans.

Andrew: That was reassuring.

Micah: Yeah, that’s one of the things that I took away from the documentary, was that this is going to be a series that is created by fans for fans. It’s a little bit reminiscent of Hogwarts Legacy, to be honest, when we were hearing about who was going to be working on the actual creation and production of the game. And there’s a lot of legacy here too; we see it throughout the course of the documentary. There’s a lot of really great moments in the credits, where now it’s becoming a generational thing to work on the Harry Potter films, now the Harry Potter TV show, and I think that’s just a really nice touch.

Eric: Yeah, definitely loved the way the documentary focused on the creative teams, the various creative teams, from costumes to casting, to production, set, creature effects… really just showcased how many people it takes to mount a show this big, and also, as you said, the level of detail. Loved that. And there was even that guy who painted the first Quidditch box, or his dad did, and now he’s painting the new one. That’s cool.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I did come away from this documentary feeling more assured about the effort and the thought that is being put into this series, and how they are very intentionally trying to do things better than the movies, I think. I think we’re going to come out of this just really blown away, and I think it’s going to be very interesting to watch the movies after being spoiled by this TV show for seven plus seasons.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: You know? It’s going to be a whole different wizarding world, it feels like.

Eric: I agree, and to be clear, the movies did not at all lack detail.

Andrew: No, no.

Eric: But you couldn’t see the detail that was put into most of the…

Laura: Right.

Eric: Honestly, this is why the Studio Tour has been so successful for 16 years. The costume design, the set design, everything that they built, even the animatronics and creatures, were amazing. But in the movie, they get a minute of screen time tops, and you can’t appreciate them the way that we’re going to get to in eight hours, so that feels good.


Finding Harry Documentary Reaction


Andrew: So we’re going to go in chronological order here. We took some notes. We’re going to kind of fly by the seat of our pants; this just was released on HBO Max a little over an hour ago, so here we go. Like I think, Eric, you mentioned, the documentary primarily focused on the sets and the costumes and the casting of the trio. It was narrated by Nick Frost, who plays Hagrid. I didn’t realize that until the very end, where you actually see him…

Laura: Me neither.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, when he was there? Yeah, it was Nick Frost.

Andrew: But it does open with John Lithgow, who plays Dumbledore, saying that this series is going to “let the story breathe.” And that stood out to me, because weren’t we saying that on the show last week or a couple weeks ago? That this show is going to let the series breathe?

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Well, it’s confirmed.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And he goes further; Lithgow says, “We’re going to go down all the rabbit holes and show things happening in the wings that we don’t see.” And this makes it sound like an intentional deep dive, essentially, into those moments. So I felt very, as Laura said quite nicely, respected as a fan.

Micah: And not just any rabbit holes; wonderful rabbit holes.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, did he say that? “Wonderful rabbit holes”?

Eric: Well, I think there were hints, and I think that we can guess at some more of them as the documentary goes on. The thing that shook me right off the bat with Nick Frost was “Haytch-B-O.” Apparently in Britain, they say “Haytch-B-O,” and I think this is something we need to adopt, because we were so excited that they’re calling it Philosopher’s Stone, that we too should British-ify our saying of “Haytch-B-O.”

Andrew: I didn’t… I missed that. I’ll have to check.

Eric: We’ve got to get used to it.

Andrew: John Lithgow also did confirm eight episodes for Season 1, which I think was expected, but it’s nice to hear that on air. Watch, they’ll be like, “You know what, guys? We have too much footage. We’re actually going to do ten episodes.”

Eric: Right.

Andrew: [laughs] That would be kind of cool.

Laura: “Oh, darn.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Not surprising that they’d have ten episodes worth of footage.

Andrew: Yeah. Oh, I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if we get multiple documentaries. Clearly, this one… this one was actually 27 minutes, including the credits. I’m sure they were filming documentary-type material nonstop throughout the season, and maybe we’re going to get another mini-doc or two in the lead-up to the show being released.

Eric: That’s another thing that overall is heartening to me, because I always wanted this from the films. I always wanted… they released that Film Wizardry book, and there was another one called Page to Screen, which are very extensive; they have photos of set designs and other things like that. But what I always would have wanted is this type of documentary, even for those films. And I think that what this proves, the fact they released this eight months before the TV show is even out – and they’re already, to your point, Andrew, filming these kinds of interview type things – shows that they not only have found what the show is, but they’ve been rolling for months and months and months, and they have everything figured out, and they’re recording. The cameras are on everybody.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. I mean, this is all monetizable, marketable material they can use, so I’m not surprised.

Eric: I just hope it doesn’t get put in a vault.

Andrew: RachelPuff, who’s listening live, also reminds us, “HBO does typically release extra content after each episode of their large shows, like those little behind-the-scenes things.”

Eric: Oh, yeah. What was that, Andrew? “Haytch-B-O” does that too?

Andrew: [laughs] I am not doing that.

Eric: I’m trying to make it happen!

Andrew: So the documentary does start with the casting information. We see the audition tapes for the trio. There were 40,000 auditions… was that just for Harry? Or was that…?

Laura: That’s what I took away, was that it was just for Harry.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: But it was moving really quickly, and I was trying to pay attention while taking notes. [laughs]

Eric: It’s kind of hard.

Andrew: Yeah, I know. I had to go back and turn on the closed captioning and confirm things. There was one stat that blew my mind, but we’ll get to it in a little bit. I had to turn on the closed captioning to confirm I was hearing her correctly.

Micah: I hope it didn’t ruffle your feathers too much, Andrew.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That is exactly what I’m alluding to.

Micah: [laughs] I loved this, though, just to show how they did go all across the UK to take these audition tapes from young kids, because they mentioned that Alistair was from Manchester; Arabella was from London; Dominic, Glasgow; so yeah, it was just really cool to… and these are things – kind of building off of what Eric was saying earlier – we never really got the opportunity till I don’t think after the films were fully released to see audition tapes from Dan, Emma, or Rupert. We’re getting this now before Philosopher’s Stone even debuts on HBO.

Andrew: Yeah. One interesting note about casting Arabella Stanton as Hermione: The casting directors say they tested her in a scene in which she talks to her parents about Ron and Harry, so that’s cool. We’re going to be getting Hermione’s parents pretty early.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And not only that, but thinking about when that would occur. After she met Ron and Harry, but before the end of the first year that they’re filming, means it’s probably over Christmas break when Hermione goes home.

Micah: Are we going skiing in France?

Eric: Maybe!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, well, so the whole idea that they wrote a scene… maybe Hermione is trying to figure out about Nicolas Flamel over break, too, but just crazy to think about.

Laura: Yeah. And what I love about this in particular… they were talking about the character descriptions they were going for when looking for the main three, and specifically, Hermione was described as being an only child and lacking a filter because of it, and that is such a true statement about Hermione’s character. So the fact that they were that intentional with thinking about, “Who are these characters really at their core? What are the character traits that we want to see embedded in these auditions so that we can make sure we’re bringing the characters to life?” I thought that was really, really cool. And I thought it was super cute that when they were talking about the audition tape of Arabella talking about Harry and Ron to her parents, that she, I guess, started giggling a little bit and had these little snorts…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … that they were like, “That really shows Hermione’s playfulness underneath everything else.” And yeah, so I just thought that was so cool. It’s just the little things. And it’s not just about focusing so much on Hermione being a know-it-all; that’s definitely a big part of her character, but that’s not the only part of her character.

Andrew: So they focused a lot on the details that we’re going to get in this series, and man, is it impressive. One of the things that jumped out to me: the Chocolate Frogs. Did you see those? They’re not chocolate; they’re green! [laughs]

Eric: They’re green! Maybe they’re chocolate on the inside, but I don’t want to bite into that! That looks like it’s going to be alive. How can you tell them apart?

Micah: Well, Eric, these are those leftovers that…

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: No, they’re not. That’s an insult to these new ones.

Eric: Oh, that we found at the New York store. You’re right, Micah. Oh my God, the expiry date was a year prior.

Andrew: It doesn’t look like chocolate, but I think that’s cool. I think they’re going… I love that they’re going in such a different direction from what we saw in the movies.

Eric: Yes, that’s something so simple. They could have kept it just a chocolate-coated frog, like you get chocolate bunnies this weekend, everybody. They’re going to be on sale starting tomorrow. But yeah, just do something different.

Andrew: The animatronics were one of the biggest, best surprises, I think, in this documentary. There’s a lot of animatronics, it looks like, which is always a welcome inclusion, because for a while – I’m not talking about Harry Potter specifically – but for a while, there was this trend, I think, in Star Wars world, where a lot of it was CGI instead of animatronics, like they did back in the ’70s and the ’80s and what you see at the theme parks, and people missed those animatronics. There was a sense of authenticity that came with those, and they’re fun to see. I mean, it reminds me of going into Chuck E. Cheese as a kid and watching Chuck E. move around like this. [laughs]

Eric: He was very cool. Yeah, he’s held up, too.

Andrew: And they’ve gotten way better.

Eric: Well, I mean, that’s the thing, is the CGI ages the least well over animatronics or puppets or any of the other effects. So if they can do something that is CGI-lite, and at the same time, bring in these artisans who are clearly at the top of their game, creating real amazing… the creatures that we saw in this documentary. Just unbelievable levels of creativity and artistry.

Andrew: So one of the designers said that they are putting 36,000 feathers in each owl.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I backed up and double checked that and looked at the closed captioning. 36,000 feathers! How is that possible? [laughs]

Eric: I’m googling how many feathers are on a real owl.

Laura: I mean, I was going to say, somebody… ChatGPT, how many feathers do real owls have? Because…

Eric: Nope, nope, yeah, most owls – now, this is AI overview – have between 9 and 10,000 feathers. The most ever found was 12,000. So that’s a lie! That’s an exaggeration.

Laura: Oh, damn.

Eric: Even if they’re doing 10,000 feathers, and they have eight owls, that’s insane.

Andrew: Yeah. And these are normal-sized owls, in case anybody’s wondering. If you see them in the documentary, you’ll… they’re supposed to just be normal everyday owls. So that was impressive.

Micah: Well, the person who said this is Sophie Rechtberger, and I just love the fact that her title is CFX HOD, which I’m assuming is Head of Development for Hair, Fur, and Feathers.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: So I don’t know if you really want to challenge her on this, Andrew.

Eric: Okay, all right, I retract my challenge.

Andrew: I’m not doubting her.

Eric: I’m just going to take her word for it. There’s 36,000 feathers, and they all look great.

Andrew: We also saw Scabbers. They did an animatronic… actually, two animatronics.

Eric: Because one…

Andrew: One of them bites a hand and just hangs on, presumably, Ron’s hand. Did you make a noise, Micah? Were you not impressed or something?

Micah: No, I was.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Doesn’t he bite Goyle in the chapter…?

Andrew: Oh, Goyle. Okay.

Eric: Ron… it’s actually what gets Malfoy to go away the first time they ever have to get Malfoy to go away.

Andrew: Ah, cool. Okay, good catch. We saw the… Dungbong?

Eric and Laura: Dugbog.

Andrew: Dugbog. Just Dugbog. Okay.

Micah: Yeah, take the N’s away.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Dugbog. I thought…

Micah: It’s like “Haytch-B-O.”

Andrew: [laughs] I thought it was a typo in our doc.

Micah: Hogwarts Legacy.

Andrew: In Hogwarts Legacy?

Micah: You definitely have Avada Kedavra‘d a few of them.

Andrew: Oh, right.

Eric: I don’t have that spell, you guys.

Micah: Oh, you don’t?

Andrew: Suuure.

Eric: No, no. Eleanor Rigby would never, okay?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: That was my Hufflepuff character. But Dugbogs are in swamps everywhere around in the Scottish area that you’re in.

Andrew: They weren’t seen in the movies, so that’s something new coming over to the TV show.

Eric: Well, they talked about having to have bits that pop off of them, so the students, I guess, were probably going to get some kind of magical creatures lesson, or some scene where they happened to be plucking, because the guy who was walking us through it did that, took the parts off.

Laura: I also love how they had Flobberworms, and they looked so disgusting, but so good.

Eric: Euuuughh.

Laura: But this was another thing that I thought was such a nice touch, because if you’re a book reader, you know that Flobberworms are not introduced until, what, Book 3 or 4?

Eric: I think that’s right.

Micah: And whoever was speaking at that time I think mentioned that they didn’t tell the students or the actors that they were going to be handling Flobberworms…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … and the fact that when you pick them up, they’re disgusting and nasty.

Eric: Oh, the slime.

Micah: So I bet they got a pretty natural reaction from at least the trio.

Eric: Well, and as to where they’ll fit in the overall year of the story, I think the Fire Crabs in particular were shown in Diagon Alley, so it’ll be… whether Magical Menagerie or something, but imagine that as something eye-catching for Harry to see when he and Hagrid are walking by.

Laura: Right.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: I’m going to need a whole episode in Diagon Alley, you guys. I know we joked about “Whole episode on the train,” but come on.

Andrew: It looks really cool. Got our first look at Gringotts, too. The exterior, at least. It’ll be very cool to see the inside of that place. There was a comment; they said, “There’s a ton going into this for the diehards, so we’re going to land it with them.” I thought that was cool. Even though you could argue that this series is probably to introduce Harry Potter to a new generation of people, they are still serving the diehards. Like Laura said, we’re feeling respected as fans. Respect us. We’re the danger.

Laura: Yeah. Well… [laughs] Okay, Heisenberg.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But what I also love about it, though, is that it feels… the designs and the environment do feel distinct, but when I think about all of the investments that have been made in things like the theme park, it’s going to be pretty easy for them, I think, to retrofit some of that to update it to look like the feel of the TV show if they decide they want to do that.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Because it’s not so drastically different that they would have to tear everything down and start over. I think they could give Islands of Adventure and everything else Harry Potter a bit of a facelift to update it for the times, so I think that’ll be really nice.

Eric: Yeah, even just updating the signage of other shops to match what’s in the show. Be an easy way to do that.

Andrew: Janet McTeer, who plays McGonagall, called the Great Hall her favorite set, which I thought was cool. She says, “It felt like walking into a cathedral.” And that Great Hall set really does look like something special.

Laura: Yeah, it does. Are they using the same set but just updated for the show?

Andrew: I don’t think so.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: No, it looks bigger to me. I noticed staircases on one side? Did you all notice that?

Micah: Well, that would be very much like Hogwarts Legacy.

Laura: Kind of like Hogwarts Legacy, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, there were… yeah, you’re right. Or even like a church, honestly. Like those upper levels for additional seating and whatnot.

Eric: The loft. Yeah, the choir loft.

Andrew: “The loft.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, that’s what it’s called.

Micah: Well, didn’t it…? It took you up, and then you could eventually get up to the belfry where the chimes were for the school. Am I remembering that correctly from the video game?

Laura: You are.

Eric: I think that’s right.

Andrew: That is right, yeah.

Micah: The other thing I really liked that Janet McTeer had to say was that if she was having a really rough day, all she had to do was close her eyes, take a deep breath, and open them back up and recognize that she was at Hogwarts. And I thought that was a really nice… I’m paraphrasing, but I thought that was really nice.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Also, I thought the most interesting part of the documentary were these comments from production designer Mara LePere-Schloop. She said,

“In the initial conversations with Mark and Francesca about the core values of our show, there was this kind of inherent desire to be rooted in naturalism. Also, in this idea at the core of Harry Potter, nature is the root of magic, and so magical realism, rooting things in principles that we find in nature and the phenomenon of the natural world. If we could harness those things, that’s what magic is. These ideas of naturalisms being this core principle within the wizarding world is something that we’re integrating a lot into our sets. We have to bring the natural world to the sets, and to think that I’m at the helm of this, it really is incredible. This project is so exciting that there’s so much overlap and play between different departments to really capture these concepts and themes and express them on so many different levels. As we designed these practical and visual effects, we wanted there to be a deeply-rooted logic to what was happening. Even though magic is not logical, for us, it’s more of these consequences of magic that we’re interested in. For every expression of magic, we’re trying to do that critical analysis of, ‘How does this tie back into what we’re saying magic actually is?’ And we really wanted to celebrate it as a moment to do things a little bit differently.”

So I know that was a long quote, but we’re already getting hints of how this Hogwarts is rooted in nature. I think I pointed out last week that the Harry Potter logo has a tree root.

Eric: Ooh, yeah.

Andrew: Watching the trailer again after our trailer episode, I noticed there’s a tree in the Hogwarts entryway. Inside.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: This Hogwarts is earthy and almost born out of the earth.

Eric: A lot more Hufflepuff. I appreciate that a lot.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But yeah, I mean, in this documentary I saw the Great Hall doors when they’re walking through, and there’s branches everywhere, growing off of the main doors to the Great Hall. So that’s very impressive.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: I think you’re exactly right, and that’s a great thing you noticed about the logo.

Micah: I feel like there was some of that, too, in Diagon Alley. I’d have to go back and take a closer look, but it felt like roots were coming up through the cobblestones.

Andrew and Laura: Yes.

Laura: Very much so.

Andrew: Going by the storefronts.

Eric: There was a shot of those mushrooms that were burbling or whatever.

Laura: Yeah, for sure.

Micah: Mara also had another interesting comment, and it was actually in the preview for the documentary, where she said, “This is a designer’s dream, to play in a sandbox this big.” And again, it’s paying fan service, but I think it is really good to hear these types of things coming from the people who are working on the series.

Andrew: Absolutely. They talked about the costumes; that was a big focus of the documentary. They said it’s set in 1991, and the clothes are going to be from the ’90s, baby.

Micah: They came to me for all of Dudley’s wardrobe.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Did they?

Laura: They borrowed it from Micah’s closet. What I loved about this was they actually went out in search of real vintage ’90s clothing designs for the costuming.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: I also cringed a little bit when they said “vintage ’90s clothing.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: As someone who wore that stuff when I was a kid, but okay. But no, it was really cool. And they were really intentional about the materials that they used, right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, British wool, and then Scottish materials too. I thought that was a really cool way to honor the country that the story is set in. They also said that for magical people, they wanted to present them in a way that feels somehow “a little bit other” in the costume designs. I thought that was a really thoughtful idea.

Eric: Yeah, and they had a rule of thumb while working, which is they said, “I just saw a magical person.”

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: And it’s like, “What was that person wearing?”

Andrew: Out and about, when they were just traveling…

Eric: Out and about. Like, “What about that person clicked for you, ‘Oh, magical,’ and then let’s incorporate that into the magical people of the series.”

Micah: I’ll be honest; I mean, sometimes I think I see Dumbledore on the train.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, you should ask him sometime.

Eric: Next time, take a picture.

Micah: I will, yeah.

Andrew: Well, speaking of Dumbledore, they did discuss designing Dumbledore’s looks, and Dumbledore has these leaf print designs on several of his cloaks and gear, and with that leaf printing, they “wanted to create a sense of natural, immediate, unruly process. It’s the imperfection of those leaf prints that brings the beauty.” And then there was this other quote that “He’s a little bit of an Edwardian gentleman. We wanted to root him in reality.”

Eric: The natural state of things is also very alchemical. The alchemical is about the physical properties, and so it makes perfect sense that Dumbledore would be a lot more tied to nature through his look than he was done previously.

Andrew: Yeah. In this area of the documentary, we also got to look at Dedalus Diggle, who we have seen through paparazzi photos interacting with Vernon, so it was just cool to get a little official look at him. Also noticed, we did see the bathroom where the troll attack occurs, I assume. The bathroom was in shambles, so I just figure that’s what…

Eric: Oh, yeah. I mean, sorry, guys. That was me.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I don’t know what we’re saying here, but yeah, that makes sense to me.

Andrew: John Lithgow did talk about his age again. He was like, “I’m 80 now; I’m going to be 88 when I’m done. I’m going to be growing up with these kids.” He’s talked about that quite a few times.

Eric: Yeah. Well, the closure of the doc was very special for an interview with Paapa as well, and they both talked about… I really actually appreciated how Paapa said how nice it was going to be to see these kids grow, and grow up. And the line I liked from Lithgow was, “They’re going to grow up with this, and I’m going to grow old with them.” So that felt very nice. But Lithgow looks great!

Andrew: He does. Sounds good.

Eric: He jokingly talked in the interview about how old he is, and he is already eight years older than Richard Harris was when Richard Harris passed, but he seems perfectly spry and happy to do it, so I’m thrilled.

Micah: Yeah, he seems very excited to be playing this role.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And there were a lot of great B-roll shots of them on the sets. I think we saw a lot of Great Hall shots, and it was fun seeing him in that role as Dumbledore.

Laura: Totally.

Andrew: Let’s see. What else? What else? Anything else y’all wanted to…? Somebody has a note here; you noticed wedding pictures of the Dursleys.

Eric: Yes.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: This was something that we got to… so you know how in really any movie ever, if you look at photos that are supposed to be a married couple or a family, they’re almost every single time just poorly photoshopped photos of the actors – maybe even in costume, if you’re lucky – but they’re all just garbage? This time they went through the process, you can tell, of actually photographing, actually doing a whole shoot with Vernon and Petunia on their wedding day. And it looks like Vernon’s parents and Petunia’s parents are there, and there’s actually a strained look on Petunia’s mother’s face that one could even read deeper to say, “Oh, she thinks that Lily should be there and isn’t, and is consumed by it.” And Petunia looks a little less happy, but Vernon is smiling.

Laura: I would just point to the amount of detail we saw in the cupboard under the stairs as well.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: There was a lot going on in there.

Micah: The Dustbuster.

Laura: Yeah, just a lot more props and decoration in there than we got to see in the movies, which makes sense; I mean, if Harry spent his childhood in there, he would have more up on the walls.

Andrew: Yeah. So overall, I’m really impressed with this documentary. I came away feeling better than I already did, and I was feeling pretty good about the show. Again, it’s really reassuring to see that these people who are working on this care. They’re really putting a lot of thought into it. And when you hear the everyday noise online about the show, it reminds you…

Eric: Well, for good reason.

Andrew: Well, with the author, yeah, but people…

Eric: But you can lose sight.

Andrew: Yeah, that there’s real people who care working on this show behind the scenes, and they’re doing quality work, it seems.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: This is going to… I mean, I was blown away by the level of detail of everything that I saw here, and I thought, “What a great opportunity all of these people are having, again, artisans at the top of their craft, to be part of this journey for ten more years.” It’s absolutely wonderful to see the art that they will be creating.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And I love the multi-generational aspect of it. I know it was talked about earlier, the fact that there was a father who worked on the first Quidditch box, and now his son is doing it. In the credits, there was a father and son duo that are now working together. I think the man mentioned that he met his wife while working on Harry Potter; now his son is working with him. And we just hear these stories about how blown away a lot of these other everyday people are now to be working on Harry Potter, having grown up with it. Paapa Essiedu mentions it even in his own interview about the day he came to set, and he walked in and there was the Hogwarts Express, and it just took him back to his days reading the Harry Potter books. So there’s a lot of nostalgia here, which is, I think, a good thing.

Laura: Yeah, the generational impact is real. I mean, I think somebody else on set design was talking about how she had been reading the books with her son, right? And that that was a big source of connection for them.

Andrew: And she was so moved by her son saying to her, “I want to go to a school like this,” that then she felt driven to find a school like this, and now get to create one. That’s pretty amazing. And these productions, they are giant families. You’re spending probably ten years together. Like John Lithgow said, you’re growing up together.

Eric: Absolutely, yeah. And it just seems like they’re absolutely sparing no expense too. This could have been, in some world, I guess, a cheaper… or money grab. That’s absolutely not what comes to mind at all watching this documentary. Even as of the trailer, you can tell that it’s not that.

Andrew: I think that is one of the big takeaways here. If you watch this, you will not feel like this series is just a money grab. It was definitely inspired by the financial potential, but… [laughs]

Laura: Of course.

Eric: I’m sure.

Laura: But they’re actually putting their money where their mouth is, and they’re not cheaping out on the production of this, which I appreciate. Also, I just want to highlight something Forty, who’s watching live with us, said: “Seeing all the artists working also felt like a good reminder that this is all much bigger than the author,” and I think that’s a great takeaway as well.

Micah: One other thing that I did want to mention; it was at the very end of the documentary, when you get the Nick Frost reveal that he’s been the one narrating the whole time. But the fact…

Eric: I knew, you guys! I know his voice! It’s him.

Micah: Well, for those of us who are less familiar.

Eric: Yes, yes, yes, yes. He looks a lot different without the Hagrid beard on.

Micah: He does. But the fact that basically Platform Nine and Three Quarters has been set up as almost like a train station within a train station; even though it’s only one platform, it has all these different cafes, and you get kind of that look out from the Hogwarts Express onto the platform. I just think everything is being reimagined; it’s not just Hogwarts or Hogsmeade. They’re taking the time to be able to really plus some things up, add some things that make sense. Like, yeah, maybe there should be a coffee shop on Platform Nine and Three Quarters.

Andrew: Yeah, Mrs. Weasley needs a pick-me-up after taking those kids to the platform.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: She’s going to go for a drink after dropping those kids off.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Maybe there’s a bar there too.

Micah: Especially Fred and George.

Andrew: I’m glad you bring up Platform Nine and Three Quarters, because was anybody else surprised that they actually built out a permanent Platform Nine and Three Quarters set? Because okay, I guess it appears in every book, or almost every book, but it’s… I don’t know. It doesn’t appear that often.

Micah: But it’s at the Studio Tour.

Andrew: Yeah. No, but this is a whole different one, right? This is a whole…

Micah: No, yeah. Well, I would… yeah, I think so. I think everything is different.

Andrew: I don’t know. Yeah, it just surprised me that they actually built out that whole set. Remember, the movies did not do that. That was all CGI! [laughs] At least for Deathly Hallows.

Eric: Yeah. Well, again, I just want to see them get the most use out of it. That’s going to be great to see. Usually when they build a whole set, as opposed to half a set, it’s because they need full camera angle creative control, the ability to do all sorts of stuff. Because yeah, why would you build a set that a train can actually go through? It’s crazy.

Andrew: I guess with the movies they didn’t know, like with Movie 1, if they truly were going to do seven, or even eight movies…

Laura: Of course, yeah.

Andrew: … so now I think this also just tells you they are fully… this is another stupid thing I see on social media. “Oh, this show’s going to bomb and it’s going to get canceled after two seasons.” Warner Bros. very much does not feel that way, and that’s why they’re building these sets out, because they’re going to be using them for the next ten years. And then there will be a second Studio Tour, dedicated to the TV show. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. I wonder if it’ll be across the street from the other. I wonder if you’ll have to buy a multi-Studio Tour pass to get to both of them.

Micah: I was going to say, can you get a Park Hopper pass? [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Park Hopper pass for the Studio Tours.

Andrew: I think that’d be cool. [laughs]

Eric: And then you’ll be able to take the train between the two of them. Except when you get on the Hogwarts Express from the movie side, it’ll say 5972 on the front of it; when you get off on the TV show side, it’ll say 5977. The number changed on the train.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: Good catch.

Micah: Did anybody expect maybe a little bit of another tease at the end of this documentary?

Andrew: I kind of thought so too.

Eric: I thought when Nick Frost was getting on the train that he was going to sit down next to Warwick Davis.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That would’ve been kind of nice.

Eric: I really did, because that guy’s a big, big, big name actor, and we haven’t yet seen him as Flitwick or as himself doing interviews yet.

Andrew: Yeah, it is kind of interesting who they did focus on. They just had the Snape, McGonagall, and Dumbledore actors. Obviously, there’s way more people who could appear in documentaries like this. My prediction is there’s going to be another documentary or two. Of course, we haven’t heard from the kids yet either. But yeah, I was hoping for an Apple Keynote style “One more thing” at the end of the documentary, some sort of fun reveal. I don’t know what, but some surprise.

Eric: Peeves!

Andrew: Sure, Peeves.

Micah: Oh, that would have been fun. A nice little surprise at the end. But I mean, we did get the trailer, for those who didn’t see it, at the very beginning, but it’s not the same. I was hoping for a little bit more of a surprise.

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] They played the trailer before the documentary, you’re saying.

Micah: Yeah, did you not get that?

Andrew: I did, but I skipped it.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You had already seen that.

Laura: I mean, we’ve already watched it how many times?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I needed to take notes for MuggleCast. I will say – we were talking about this before we started the show – the trailer is airing on TV, it feels like, nonstop. If you play anything on HBO Max right now, at least for me, I’m getting that Harry Potter trailer before…

Laura: Everything.

Andrew: … whatever show I’m watching. They’re promoting this hard already, and it is kind of surprising for a TV show to get promoted eight months in advance.

Micah: I agree.

Andrew: That’s crazy.

Micah: And I mentioned this to you before the show as well; I was watching the Final Four last night, which is on TNT, which is part of the Warner Media family, and they did a live read for Philosopher’s Stone during the game, like you would do a live read for anything else. So again, the fact that we’re getting promotion this early, and you’re getting a documentary this early – even though it’s only 30 minutes long – they are churning that marketing machine.

Andrew: It’s wild. I don’t know what to make of it just yet. What is the goal? To remind people…?

Micah: To mess up our recording schedule.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’re recording this on Easter Sunday!

Eric: Only the major holidays. Easter, Christmas…

Micah: Well, didn’t you have a theory about that, Andrew?

Andrew: Oh, I did. I wonder if, by releasing this documentary on a holiday weekend, that they’re kind of testing viewership numbers, what viewership numbers will be like for Harry Potter anything. That’s my guess. Because Easter Sunday?

Micah: Maybe. Because it’s going to slide into that probably 8:00 p.m. Eastern window on HBO, which is a pretty important window for them.

Eric: For when it’s airing tonight.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s prime time, baby. Sunday night. Well, and 8:00 p.m. is interesting because 9:00 p.m. is when Game of Thrones typically airs, or Succession or White Lotus. 8:00 p.m. says, “We want to air it a little earlier for the kids,” right?

Micah: Right, exactly. And I’m sure it’ll air at 8:30, and then it’ll start airing…

Andrew: 8:30? What are you talking about? The documentary?

Micah: I think they’ll air it back to back.

Andrew: Oh.

Micah: Like you can watch it at 8:00 and at 8:30…

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: … and then it goes into rotation, where it’s on a thousand times over the course of the next month.

Andrew: Yeah, but what I’m talking about is when the TV show actually starts airing, they’ll probably run it at 8:00 p.m. on Sundays so the kids can watch, I think.

Micah: Yeah, I think that’s right.

Andrew: All right. Well, thanks, everybody, for tuning in to this special episode of MuggleCast, in which we’ve been covering the Finding Harry documentary. If you are watching this on YouTube, please be sure to press that follow button so you can get more coverage of the Harry Potter TV show as we continue to cover it for the next nine months and beyond. If you’re listening to this in your favorite podcast app, please press follow in there. We’re doing a chapter by chapter reread of the Harry Potter series right now, and when there’s big news like this documentary, we’re taking a break from Chapter by Chapter to discuss what has been released. And if the last week has been any indication, it looks like we’re going to be getting many more previews over the next nine months. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: See y’all next week. Bye.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #745

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #745, The ‘Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone’ TV TRAILER IS OUT!


Cold Open


Eric: They take off at, what, 11 in the morning, and they arrive in darkness?

Andrew: That’s another episode of the show, dedicated to the train ride.

Eric: Yeah, they’re going to be really faithful with this. I’m telling you.

Andrew: [laughs] It’s like The Pitt, but you’re on the Hogwarts Express all day.

Eric: Absolutely!

[Laura laughs]


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies, and this week, we hope the American listeners know what “philosopher” means, because we’re also talking about the Harry Potter TV show. The first official trailer for Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone was released on Wednesday. So make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode of these monthly TV-focused episodes. We actually had planned to focus on the TV show this week.

Micah: I did all this work planning the document, and then boom, we had influencers showing up at the set of the Harry Potter TV show, and then the next day, we got a trailer.

Andrew: It almost sounded like, Micah, that you’re saying that influencers raided the set.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “The influencers showed up at the set…”

Micah: I mean, isn’t that what they do?

Laura: First of all, I just want us to bask in this moment here, because we are getting to react to a brand new Harry Potter trailer in the year 2026, as we are all 20 years removed from the period of time when we were constantly reviewing new trailers, so this is just really exciting.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, when was the last time we reviewed a Harry Potter trailer? Obviously, we did Fantastic Beasts stuff, but when was the last time when we reviewed a Deathly Hallows – Part 2 trailer? And that would have been, what…?

Laura: Right.

Micah: Probably 15 years ago.

Eric: 15 years.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s crazy. It is a special occasion, Laura, so much that I’m actually wearing my Deathly Hallows button-down T-shirt because I wanted to look a little fancier for the trailer.

Micah: Oh, and I got a tie too.

Andrew: Oh, you have a tie.

Micah: I have a tie.

Andrew: Oh, you’re going to get to that, aren’t you?

Eric: Oh, that’s a particular tie. Hey, I think I’ve seen that tie somewhere before.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I didn’t know we were dressing up. I didn’t get the memo.

Micah: I’ll take this off for now, but…


News


Andrew: So we’re going to focus on the title and the release date first, and then we’ll break down the trailer. So yes, Season 1 is called Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone.

Micah: I’m so confused. [laughs]

Laura: I feel so vindicated right now.

Andrew: Do you, Laura?

Laura: I do, because all of y’all were being like, “No, they’re not going to call it… they’re just going to call it Harry Potter.”

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: And I just… I saw that, and I chuckled a little bit. Felt validated.

Micah: Wait, didn’t we do a bonus MuggleCast where we bet on this? Was that one of the topics?

Andrew and Laura: I think it was.

Micah: Can we go back and check the tape on this?

Andrew: I’m very excited to see that they’re going with Philosopher’s Stone and not trying to make it Sorcerer’s Stone for Americans and then keep it Philosopher over in the UK. They changed the name for Americans because the books, this world was not popular at the time; they got scared by the word “philosopher” in the US, so Scholastic decided to change it. You do not need the change to the name anymore. It would have been ridiculous to call it Sorcerer’s Stone here, I think.

Laura: Agree.

Eric: Yeah, it was one decision made by the book publishing industry 28 years ago…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … and should not hold the rest of the experience of Harry Potter to that one decision.

Micah: Agreed.

Andrew: Okay, so if there’s nothing else to say on the title, the other big surprise is that this show is going to debut Christmas 2026, this year. That is pretty surprising. We had started hearing late 2026 or early 2027, and when they say something like that, it’s like, “Okay, they actually probably mean 2027.” But yeah, Christmas. Christmas is a Friday, by the way. Presumably they’re going to be doing weekly releases. Micah, this might mean we’re going to have not just Christmas plans, but New Year’s plans too?

Micah: I would think so, yeah. This is very reminiscent of Stranger Things in terms of releases, at least if we are to follow out the Fridays, eight straight Fridays. I don’t see if they release on Christmas why they wouldn’t release the following Friday as well. And traditionally, HBO doesn’t release all at once; they release week to week, and I don’t see why that would be different for Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone. But what I am interested in is maybe how many episode… I know I’m contradicting myself here, but do we think we could potentially get more than one episode on Christmas? It’s Christmas, after all.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s Christmas, yes.

Micah: It’s the season of giving. Or perhaps maybe just a longer premiere than the other episodes, which I think they had said are about an hour long each, right?

Andrew: I could see two episodes on Christmas to whet our appetite. I’m not sure we’d get more than that. Frankly, for us, I think it’d be great if it was just one, and space them out week to week. I do find it interesting they’re releasing this around Christmas. I’m surprised, but I’m not. We remember that…

Micah: Well, now we can’t take off during the holidays. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, that part sucks too, y’all. We’re going to have to work on Christmas, potentially? We need to get screeners.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: I don’t want to be working on Christmas, and definitely not New Year’s either. [laughs] But y’all might remember that the Harry Potter 20th anniversary event that aired on HBO a few years ago, that came out on New Year’s Day, I believe. And I just remember at the time that being a big deal, and everybody was tuning in. I think we’re in an era with streaming TV where people just want to watch special stuff at home around the holidays. Obviously, families are going to be together around the holidays too. This is very much, I think, going to be a family show, so I think this is going to do blockbuster numbers around the holidays. People don’t have anything to do! They’re going to check out the new Henry Potter show.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, the original films came out always in that November sort of Christmas holiday season, beginning moment, that month. I’ve long associated, and many people have, the early movies with Christmas. They’re just… they’re Christmas colored. They’re Christmas coded.

Andrew: That’s a good point too.

Eric: Those Christopher Columbus films are Christmas coded, and so this made sense to me as far as a release day. Sometime in June or sometime in March wouldn’t have had the same, I think, effect.

Andrew: All right, so before we jump into looking at the trailer, we are so excited by the TV show coming out this year that we are going to run a special discount on our Patreon. If you enter code “2026” at checkout, you’ll get 26% off your first month. This offer is only valid through April 1. Your financial support of MuggleCast allows us to spend time on the show, and it will help us cover the Harry Potter TV show for years and years to come. Thank you to recent patrons, including Ilona, Ryden, Carly, Johannes, Julia, Melody, Sonia, and Beatrice. By pledging to our Patreon, we’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of MuggleCast, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout where we’ve been talking the Harry Potter TV show with fellow fans – I can’t wait for our next one to talk with everybody about it – and lots more. Micah, what’s coming up in bonus MuggleCast this week?

Micah: Yeah, so had to completely change up bonus MuggleCast as well with the…

Eric: Again, Micah, thank you for all of your hard work. Everything that you do for this show.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Thank you, Eric, for acknowledging my hard work.

Eric: I just feel like… can we get a round of applause for Micah here?

Andrew: Yeah, Micah wants a lot of applause.

Micah: No, but I think it fits with the theme of the Harry Potter TV show. We mentioned earlier that a number of influencers visited the Harry Potter set, and there was a bunch of information that came out from their visits that they could share with us, so we’re going to be talking a little bit more about that, as well as some casting. So 21 Hogwarts students were announced in each of the four Hogwarts Houses. Some names are very familiar; some names are not, I’ll be completely candid. But that just means I need to read more.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But we’re excited. This is a throwback, as Laura said earlier, to the olden days of when we would get breaking news and have fresh things to discuss.

Andrew: Yeah. So again, enter code “2026” for 26% off your first month. This offer is only valid through April 1. No fooling. By the way, Kamilah is bringing up a great point in our Discord right now; she is one of our patrons. She says, “It is actually really British of them to have a Christmas episode drop! A lot of popular British shows do Christmas/New Year’s episodes.” That’s a good point. Doctor Who, Sherlock… they’ve had Christmas releases.


Trailer Analysis


Andrew: So what do y’all think? Should I play the trailer first and then do the overall thoughts? Or should we do the overall thoughts and then play the trailer?

Eric: Let’s play the trailer.

Micah: Play the trailer.

Andrew: All right, let’s get to the trailer. We’re going to play it all the way through, then we’re going to offer some overall thoughts, and then we’re going to go scene by scene. So buckle up.

[Audio clip plays]

Petunia: I told you. You are a normal boy, and you’re going to start acting like one. You think you’re something special? There is nothing special about you.

Harry: I’ve always wanted to know about my parents.

Hagrid: Your parents were the kindest, bravest people I ever met. They were funny and clever, and they stood up for what they believed was right. The next time I see you will be at Hogwarts.

Ollivander: Mr. Potter. I think we can expect great things from you. Let’s see who you are.

Ron: Are you really Harry Potter? [makes exploding sound]

[Audio clip ends]

Andrew: We’re going to start with overall thoughts first. For me, this trailer actually evoked an exciting feeling; I wasn’t really expecting that. And actually, my boyfriend said he had felt a sense of wonder when he saw it for the first time. And I would say you could see this trailer less as a trailer for this particular season, but more of an introduction to Harry Potter on a whole, I feel. There is very little plot actually covered in this trailer.

Eric: Well, Andrew, I agree. The last couple of seconds that have this music… if you want to play it for just a little couple more seconds longer, go back a few…

[Trailer music plays]

Eric: … that is wonder music.

Andrew: Oh, that is wonder. That’s whimsy and wonder.

Eric: This is whimsy and wonder. And not “Hedwig’s Theme”!

Andrew: Not “Hedwig’s Theme”!

Eric: Kind of interesting.

Laura: You know, I’m happy they didn’t.

Andrew: Same.

Eric: It stands on its own. And the interesting… that was my overall impression. There are going to be these things that are so familiar to us from the films, but I think the best things are going to be familiar to us from the books only, and watching those moments where they overlap, or watching how the show does something different and maybe just forges its own path… Hogwarts looks different; it’s not the exact same Hogwarts. There’s rooms I don’t recognize, and I love that. And yeah, I’m really taken by this trailer.

Laura: Yeah, same. What I love about it is there is so much book accuracy baked chockfull in this trailer, but it’s not an exact copy/paste of what they did in the movies, necessarily, and it’s not a line for line copy/paste from the books either. It really feels like a true adaptation, and that makes me excited, because as a Harry Potter fan since I was 11 years old, it’s been a long time since I felt like I was going to get to experience any new Harry Potter firsts, but I feel like we might get that with this show, because they’re going to dive into parts of the stories that were either omitted from the movies, or even parts of the stories that we know happened in the books, but they happened off-page and we just hear about them in passing. So that is really, really exciting to me. It makes me feel like I’m going to get to see something new.

Micah: I agree with Pat’s sentiment. This felt very much like a “Welcome to Harry’s wizarding world” trailer. And to build off of what you were saying, Andrew, about there wasn’t a whole lot of plot, right? This is called Philosopher’s Stone, but there wasn’t one mention of the Philosopher’s Stone. We don’t see Quirrell at any point. And I felt like it introduced Harry’s story, and it’s a very rough introduction at that. See the Dursleys, particularly Petunia.

Eric: With a scissors.

Micah: Yeah, in the face. But then it leaves you with that sense of wonder, and Ron’s end of the trailer moment, Alastair Stout… I mean, he totally made it for me. There couldn’t have been a better ending to that trailer. And Rupert Grint was often so much known for his facial reactions, and I think we’re going to get a lot of that with Alastair as well, just in what we’ve seen of him very briefly in this trailer. And then overall – we will talk about this when we go through the trailer – the ’90s vibes, they are strong.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yep.

Micah: They are very strong in this trailer.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Well, yeah, you mentioned the Dursleys, so let’s get into it. It does open with Privet Drive, and we see Dudley and Petunia and Vernon in separate shots. There is this line from Petunia: “There is nothing special about you.” And we mentioned getting new scenes that we hadn’t seen before. We see Harry being bullied at school. I think seeing the way that Harry is treated by the Dursleys and how he’s treated at school pre-Hogwarts really helps sell this from the get-go, as to why adapting the books again is a good thing. We’re getting more and it’s tugging at your heartstrings. I’m not sure I felt the same way when watching the movie, but this is reminding us of the emotions you feel while reading or watching Harry Potter. I think it’s kind of reawakening people’s connection to this story, why they love this story so much.

Micah: And what’s very interesting about this particular scene is that Harry’s cupboard under the stairs is covered, right? You can’t see it upon the first look into the Dursley home because it’s behind that plant.

Andrew: Oh, okay. That did not even register with me.

Eric: Even they don’t want to look at him.

Laura: Something I also really appreciate about this… and my first reaction to it was, “Holy crap, Harry Potter is going to get the HBO treatment, and I love it,” because there are a lot of themes in these books that the movies either had to sanitize or circumvent because they needed to maintain their PG ratings. HBO doesn’t have that problem. Now, I still think they want this to be a family show, so I don’t think it’s going to be Harry Potter rated R, but I think they’re going to be able to lean more into the really difficult and challenging themes. And of course, we’re getting… I think most of what we’re seeing in this trailer is probably from the first couple of episodes of the season, if I had to guess, but I love that they’re not shying away from that, because that is Harry’s origin, is that he grew up an abused child. And the movies, I feel like, kind of… again, it’s clear that the Dursleys are abusive in the movies, but more often than not, they are comedic relief.

Eric: Right.

Laura: It’s like, “Harry’s crappy aunt and uncle who are mean, and then funny stuff happens to them because they suck, and everybody loves to see it.”

Eric: Yeah, it’s cartoony, and it’s a completely different experience now watching the actress who plays Petunia tell Harry with a scissor to his face, “There is nothing special about you.” And you see that her hatred and fear and prejudice that cause her to abuse him in this way – his caregiver, the woman who’s blood related to him – is so in fear of him and so hating of him and prejudiced against him, that you see how this manifests. And that’s very uncomfortable, but it’s exactly what the message we need to learn is, that this is how abuse happens, and this is not okay.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and also what I love about it, too, is that when they were shooting the first film, obviously the books weren’t complete, so nobody knew about Petunia’s whole backstory, right?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: And so we have all of that context now, so you can really see how she’s being incredibly punitive towards Harry and taking all of her frustrations out on Harry. It’s really towards her sister, right?

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: And not getting a Hogwarts letter herself.

Laura: Yes, exactly, and still wishing that she had.

Andrew: So speaking of heartfelt, after these Petunia scenes… oh, and by the way, I think at least one person in our Discord mentioned she’s pointing the scissors at Harry almost like you would hold a wand, which I think is kind of interesting.

Laura: Oh, that’s so cool. Great catch.

Micah: And she’s got blonde hair, which Petunia does in the books.

Eric: Yep, book canon.

Micah: But not in the movies.

Andrew: Kamilah also believes that Petunia’s eyes look similar to Harry’s.

Micah: Oooh. But his eyes are blue, which we can talk about later.

Eric: Still not green.

Micah: So hopefully they make Lily’s eyes…

Andrew: Well, so are Petunia’s.

Micah: Yeah, I’m saying but hopefully they make Lily’s eyes blue just for consistency.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Micah: But I did want to go back just to the cupboard under the stairs for a second…

Andrew: Oh, yeah?

Micah: … because I was watching a video earlier, and credit to YouTube user MovieFlame pointed out there’s actually a Dustbuster and a Walkman in the cupboard. So again, just kind of keeping with that ’90s theme, those are things you wouldn’t generally find in any room probably in 2026.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, yeah, I mean, we could almost call this a period piece at this point. This was 30-40 years ago. I’m not surprised to see them doing details like that.

Eric: Well, and is Harry on the floor? Is that what I’m meant to believe? Because at least Dan Radcliffe got a cot. This looks like barely even a mattress pad that he’s on here.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s probably something shabby like that.

Eric: Like a concrete floor.

Andrew: So Harry does receive his Hogwarts letter in this trailer, and then we get to some really touching scenes between Harry and Hagrid. They’re riding on the London Underground; they’re going to go shopping for all of Harry’s things, of course. And Hagrid has a line here:

[Audio clip plays]

Hagrid: Your parents were the kindest, bravest people I ever met. They were funny and clever, and they stood up for what they believed was right.

[Audio clip ends]

Andrew: That really got me. “They stood up for what they believed was right.”

Eric: I feel like at this point in the trailer, it’s really hitting me that the openness of the world… the limits to what the show can do, and they can do so much more than the movies ever did. So when I’m hearing Nick Frost talk about Lily and James and their bravery and their funniness, I want to see that, and I want to see more Lily and James. I really, really want it. And it’s enough to take Hagrid’s word for it, but we don’t have to, and I’m just hoping for a future flashback that explores all of these characters’ relationships more.

Andrew: How are you all feeling about Hagrid so far?

Eric: I think he’s slightly less of a caricature, and I’m kind of digging that. I think that the Robbie Coltrane accent and the character that… the function he serves in the movie doesn’t have to be as grounded as this one line that we’ve just analyzed. It feels less presentational. We just meet Hagrid in the movie a minute ago, and he’s like, “Oop, off to buy yer school things!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s a little bit different than this sort of calm moment on the train of “I knew your parents. They were really funny.”

Andrew: The reason I ask is some people are criticizing it already, and I feel like we were hearing a lot of that when that first photo came out a few months ago too. It’s not bothering me yet; I think it’s too early to say. He’s calm in that moment with Harry because he’s having a heartfelt, important conversation with him. Later in this trailer we see him doing snow angels, so I think he’s going to be quirky still.

Eric: That’s right off of page 113, by the way. I looked it up.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: You’re joking, right?

Eric: Yes, absolutely.

Andrew: Okay, just checking. [laughs]

Eric: No, no, you guys, get your books.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I think you have to give it time. And you brought this up, Andrew, when you did the original trailer review, that it’s going to be very hard for people to separate the original actors, especially those who have passed at this point, from the ones that are now taking over these roles. You’re talking about iconic British actors and actresses who were in this original movie series. It’s hard for these actors and actresses now to step into these roles, and I don’t think it’s fair to compare. You have to let them establish the character in their own right over the course of these eight seasons.

Andrew and Laura: I agree.

Andrew: I think – and like I was saying during that YouTube livestream – people are going to have to… we’re asking people to unwind what has been burned into their head since these movies started coming out. Talking about Hagrid, “You’re a wizard, Harry,” it is going to be hard – for me too, I think – to hear Nick Frost perform that line and not compare it to Robbie Coltrane’s delivery. We just all have certain lines in our head that we have a certain way of expecting them to be delivered.

Micah: I love this advertisement for Hertz.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m noticing that too for the first time.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Is there product placement in this trailer?

Eric: “Hertz are driving people off…” Well, it’s product placement, but for the ’90s, right? So it’s like, “Go buy this thing 28 years ago.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Did you ever have a Hertz donut?

Eric: What’s that?

Micah: That never got done to you when you were growing up?

Eric: No. Please don’t hit my arm. Please don’t hit my arm the next time we see each other and say…

Micah: Somebody would punch you and be like, “Hurts, don’t it?”

Andrew: Oh, okay. That’s very funny. That’s very funny.

Eric: Yeah, and speaking of that… I mean, that’s a very Dudley-ism, Micah. Are you sure that you don’t…?

Micah: Oh, yeah, we didn’t…

Eric: Did you get your tie at the same place?

Micah: I think we did.

Andrew: Micah, you felt you and Dudley have the same tie.

Eric: Let’s pull this up here.

Micah: I think it’s pretty close.

Andrew: This tie right here?

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, I could see that. It’s similar.

Eric: It’s the same tie.

Micah: It’s close. It’s maybe a little off-color, but…

Andrew: I declare canon. Same tie.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So then Hagrid says to Harry something along the lines of, “The next time I see you, I’ll see you at Hogwarts.” And then there’s this great shot of Harry running with purpose towards the Platform Nine and Three Quarters brick wall. We don’t see him actually go through, but I love how the camera is following him, and he’s just… you can see how seriously and passionately he is running towards that wall. And then the next shot is Harry on the Hogwarts Express, looking at Molly saying goodbye to Ron.

Laura: I love this. I really… because it’s the mother/son relationship Harry never had.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: So it’s like he really is on the outside looking in. And then the other piece of this that I really love, if you cut to the next frame of this – pause – there’s Ginny in the reflection.

Eric: Hey!

Laura: Right next to Harry, staring out the window. And I was like, “Oh, this is so clever. Well done.”

Andrew: So for those not…

Micah: But that look on Harry’s face is heartbreaking.

Andrew: I know, I know. Again, I think this trailer really did a great job of selling people on why there should be another adaptation of this series. And yeah, so Ginny and Harry, through a reflection, are almost staring at each other. They’re not, but the shot is set up in such a way that it’s almost foreshadowing, which I think is pretty amazing.

Eric: I expect to see in the next trailer a Argus Filch and Madam Pince shot that’s just like this, looking through the dirty glasses of the trophy room.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But no, another thing here… I think Molly Weasley is very often a caricature in the early books too, and certainly in the movie it’s… I think Julie Walters does a great job, but here, as the woman holds her son who’s going off to Hogwarts for the first time, you get that love. You get that love that she feels for him, and it’s not… in the book, she’s just like, “All right, Fred, George, you go,” and it just doesn’t have this moment for Harry to be thoughtful and introspective and alone. And so yeah, I think the adaptation is really good at that.

Andrew: So then we get to the Hogwarts Express pulling into Hogwarts’s station, and we see Hagrid leading the first years to Hogwarts.

Micah: Now, do we think he’s about to lead them to the boats?

Andrew: I think so. They’ve got to have that boat scene; it’s kind of iconic.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But there’s knocking on the door too. Somebody’s got to let him in.

Andrew: Yeah. “Hello, let us in.” [laughs] It seems a little silly for him to knock on the door before letting them in, but maybe it’s part of the… it’s the theatrics.

Micah: It’s in the book.

Andrew: Oh, is it? He knocks on the door?

Eric: The magic of… well, and so is the…

Micah: He knocks on the door three times.

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Eric: So is the underground lake, is in the book. Where the boats dock, and then they go up to the castle.

Micah: It’s in Hogwarts Legacy. Well, everything’s in Hogwarts Legacy.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: So I’m really interested in seeing that area of Hogwarts.

Andrew: So then we do get Hagrid leading the students, or the students come in to the entryway of Hogwarts. And you can tell that this is the first day, because there is a banner towards the top that says, “Welcome to Hogwarts, first years.” And you see McGonagall welcoming them. And then we get our first shot, or our first look at McGonagall.

Laura: She looks great.

Andrew: Yes. The actress playing her is Janet McTeer. I remember her from Ozark; she was excellent in that series.

Eric: Oh, cool.

Laura: Same. She was also in The Menu, which starred Ralph Fiennes.

Andrew: Okay. There you go.

Laura: Small world.

Eric: That’s a good one.

Andrew: And then we get a shot of the Sorting Hat. The Sorting Hat looks like it’s been burned. Did anybody else have that thought? It’s black.

Eric: I think it’s book canon. I think it’s jet black in the books, maybe.

Andrew: Really?

Eric: I could be wrong.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: I just think it looks cool. And again, it’s design choices like these that make me feel really good, because I know that there was some concern for a while that they were just going to sort of be recycling a lot of the same props and locations and sets and things. They’re clearly not, and that’s refreshing to me. I think the hat looks cool.

Andrew: It does, yeah. And they’re also refreshing the aesthetics, I think. Yes, Hogwarts, the interior… we haven’t seen the exterior yet; I’m sure that’s going to be a big reveal at some point. But the interior is familiar, yet different. Then we get… this is kind of our first shot of the trio in some corner of Hogwarts, or maybe heading to class together.

Laura: I love this. This made me smile, seeing the three of them together for the first time.

Andrew: I know, yeah. And Dominic McLaughlin as Harry Potter, I’m just loving already. We see Ollivander. Now, this guy’s a Game of Thrones actor, right?

Micah: Yes, he played Maester Qyburn in Game of Thrones. But I really like Anton Lesser overall, and so I think he will do very well in this role. He actually reminds me a bit of John Hurt, just in terms of his delivery in this moment.

Laura: Yep, agree.

Andrew: I was going to say, though, his hair is more slicked back and combed, whereas Ollivander in the movies, his hair is all over the place. He almost looks like Einstein.

Eric: Einstein-y.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: A little poofy.

Andrew: They’re definitely going for a different approach for Ollivander, which I appreciate. I want changes like this.

Eric: Well, then I really wonder if they’re going to do the book thing where Harry tries every wand in the shop first.

Andrew: [laughs] A whole episode dedicated to Harry trying wands.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, that’s why we’re getting Episodes 1 and 2 first on Christmas, is that the second episode has to be every wand in the shop.

Andrew: I see. Got it. So we see what is possibly a History of Magic class. Now, at least one person – Shane – told me that he’s convinced that this is a ghost at the podium. Do you see a ghost here? Which would confirm it is Binns?

Micah: Well, can you see a ghost?

Andrew: Oh, good question. I see a head.

Micah: Yeah, I do see a head.

Laura: Yeah, I think it’s a safe bet.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: And I like the aesthetic of this room overall.

Eric: This room is great.

Micah: Just in terms of how they’re holding classes.

Andrew: And what we see on the screen there, like through the projector, looks to be a side of Hogwarts, right? That’s what it looks like to me. So maybe this is a sort of History of Hogwarts lesson?

Eric: This looks like the Epic Universe drone footage that we saw when they were still building the Ministry of Magic. That’s what it looks like.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That’s Gryffindor common room.

Andrew: Yeah, we get Gryffindor common room; a little glimpse of that. Kind of hard to see any details because the camera is also turning at the same time. But we get our first look, too, at Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle, and probably on the right side, that’s Pansy.

Eric: Probably.

Micah: It is.

Eric: You know what I love about this? Is having just seen Harry get bullied, having just seen it, you can kind of see how Harry has this wonderful journey into the wizarding world, but there were bullies in his former life, and there are bullies now, and I think making that sort of through-line to how Harry has to navigate it is really important for a story about a young boy.

Andrew: And he’ll be more prepared for it now, the bullying.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I wanted to get y’all’s opinion on this, because I also paused and studied this frame a little bit before we were doing this. These kids look older than the trio. They’re all supposed to be first years, but I will say this group just looks like older teenagers. I don’t know if the actors actually are, or if this was an intentional choice.

Andrew: My guess is the camera is actually kind of below their eye lines, which is making them look a little taller, whereas those other shots of the trio, the camera is kind of looking down at them. So what I’m saying is once we start getting shots of all of them together – let’s say Draco and Harry – I’m going to guess that they are going to be the same height, and maybe that’s when you’ll feel better about the one set of kids looking older than the other. I have to assume they were cast pretty… the ages have to be pretty similar.

Laura: Well, and to be clear, I’m not saying I feel bad about it. I actually think it’s kind of clever, because you would need to, I think, do something to drive home how menacing Malfoy and his lackeys are at this point in time. For no particular good reason, just because they were raised by bullies and they’re just following their parents’ lead. I think it is clever if it was an intentional choice; I was just wondering.

Micah: It says that Lox Pratt is 14 years old.

Eric: Oh, well, there you go.

Laura: Oh.

Andrew: Yeah, and then it says Dominic is 11? Can that be right? This is Gemini in the AI overview, so I don’t know for sure.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Hey, can anyone fact check that in the Discord? Let me know if I have to cut that or not. Oh, okay, wait, another article says 12 years old. So you’re right, Laura; I mean, there is an age difference there. It’s only two years, but…

Eric: But those years matter.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: This is actually a shot from Chamber of Secrets, which they’ve already filmed.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I see, that explains it. All right, well, we’ve been talking about different aesthetics and whatnot. We see Harry and Ron unwrapping Harry’s Nimbus 2000, and we see this really cool design on the box of the Nimbus 2000.

Micah: That feels very ’90s to me, too, almost like when you would unwrap a video game and you would get the box art for it.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, what I’m mainly seeing is a refreshingly different take from MinaLima. I’m glad MinaLima is not participating in this. Yes, love all their work to date, love it, but we needed something new here. We didn’t need them doing this all again, right? We get a shot of Quidditch, and this was also the first still we got the day before the trailer was released.

Micah: So it’s a Gryffindor versus Hufflepuff match?

Eric: Yeah, not the first match of the season, but then again, they’re in winter, so it wouldn’t be.

Andrew: We also get a look at the Herbology class.

Micah: With Neville.

Andrew: With Neville. Yeah, that’s Neville next to Hermione.

Micah: And one of the Patils, right?

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s Parvati.

Andrew: Oh, maybe, yeah. And we… did we get a Herbology class in Movie 1? We did in 2.

Eric and Micah: No.

Andrew: Okay, all right. We get Harry and… wait, are Harry and Ron running? I just realized this. Harry and Ron are running on top of a table in the Great Hall? Doesn’t that look like that?

Eric: Huh, yeah.

Laura: It kind of does, doesn’t it?

Micah: And there’s someone else that comes into the frame right towards the end of it.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, look right on the left side there.

Eric: They’re racing.

Micah: It’s gym class.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Hogwarts gym class! They’re rounding out the roster of Hogwarts teachers.

Andrew: Now that is super interesting, actually. I wonder if this is something that leads up to the midnight duel.

Laura: That’s what I was wondering.

Andrew: If it’s Harry, Ron, and Draco. Hmm. It is during the day, so there’s that, but okay. And then we get a shot of Harry and Ron on the Hogwarts Express, and something I like about this scene: It’s a playful moment between friends who are children. They’re just messing around in their compartment, throwing candy at each other, as the train whisks them off to Hogwarts. Do you know what I’m saying? It’s just like… it’s something that you wouldn’t really get in the movie because there’s no time for this type of thing.

Eric: Yeah, there’s no time for leisure. There’s no time for…

Andrew: Everyday fun.

Eric: I mean, the train ride takes all day. They take off at, what, 11 in the morning, and they arrive in darkness?

Andrew: That’s another episode of the show, dedicated to the train ride.

Eric: Yeah, they’re going to be really faithful with this. I’m telling you.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You’re going to see… it’s going to be…

Andrew: It’s like The Pitt, but you’re on the Hogwarts Express all day.

Eric: Absolutely!

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Each episode is one hour. [laughs]

Eric: I can’t wait to see Scabbers. He’s got to be in here somewhere in one of these treats.

Micah: He’s there in the lower right hand corner.

Andrew: You think that’s him?

Eric: Is he sleeping?

Micah: Kind of passed out after having too many sweets.

Eric: Having bitten Goyle.

Andrew: Okay, then we get some shots of winter at Hogwarts. This is another moment that you can only get in a television show where they have time to show the kids just being kids at school, and you have the time to show what Hogwarts life is like, everyday Hogwarts life. “What is that like? Well, when it snows, they start playing in the snow.” There’s this great shot… I laughed out loud when I saw this for the first time: Hagrid making a snow angel? Like, come on. [laughs] I’m sold.

Micah: And was that Ron and Hermione with Harry? Or were those two other…?

Andrew: It looked like it.

Laura: Well, no, the girl’s not Hermione.

Andrew: Well, not Hermione. Definitely Ron.

Micah: Some Hufflepuffs.

Laura: And it makes sense… yeah, because Hermione doesn’t stay for Christmas the first year.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: We’ll have some interesting news about Hermione in bonus MuggleCast.

Micah: Oh, and something very cool to point out, too, about what Harry is wearing. Mrs. Weasley gives him an emerald green jumper with an H on it for Christmas.

[Andrew gasps]

Laura: Oh, yeah! That’s right!

Andrew: Stop, that’s too cute.

Micah: You’ve got to get a closer up of that.

Andrew: It’s kind of hard to see. It’s just moving so fast.

Eric: But yeah, that makes sense.

Andrew: That’s awesome.

Micah: That’s going to become a meme if it hasn’t already.

Andrew: Hagrid?

Micah: Yes. [laughs]

Eric: Making a snow angel?

Andrew: I was thinking that too. [laughs] Was there anything else…?

Micah: That looks like… that reminds me of a shot from the movies, honestly.

Andrew: The twisting staircases?

Eric: Oh, leading up to Divination, is it? I think that’s right.

Micah: This is a Quidditch team shot.

Andrew: Yeah, this looks like prior to the game. They’re having a little pep talk, putting their hands in. “Goooo team!” Oh, yeah, right there.

Eric: That’s really cool.

Andrew: Hey, we’re getting a look at the Quidditch locker rooms for the first time, too. [laughs]

Eric: Yep, boys and girls in the same locker room. Crazy.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So here’s the shot I want to draw attention to. We have confirmation… this was a big promo picture too.

Andrew: It was the first one.

Eric: Yeah, the first promo shot was basically this, as Harry is walking up to the pitch with the crowd. So there were a lot of things the movies did that are good and worth repeating; I’m not sure that giving Harry a Quidditch number for his jersey – of course he’s number seven – is one of the things that I particularly love. It’s not a book-ism, and there’s only seven players…

Andrew: Why not?

Eric: There’s only seven players on a team. There’s no substitutes on a team; you don’t need numbers to differentiate them. And I thought this was an opportunity to get some distance from the movies. But of course, he’s Harry, and he’s Potter, and he’s seven. I don’t know. I don’t like this.

Andrew: There’s a lot of merchandise with this look on it, so that’s probably why.

Eric: Ahh, okay. That would make sense.

Laura: And also, I think they are going to make nods to the films. I don’t see a world in which they don’t. I feel like this is a small little Easter egg.

Andrew: What’s actually standing out to me here is that… why is Harry walking to the game by himself? This poor kid.

Eric: [laughs] Slept in.

Andrew: Seriously! I feel bad for him. He’s got friends at this point; why is he walking alone? I don’t know. Then there’s this scene, presumably in the Gryffindor common room. It almost looks like they’re roasting a giant marshmallow? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I think so.

Laura: I think this is over the Christmas break.

Micah: I think they’re just having fun. Like you were saying earlier, Andrew, when they’re just being friends on the Hogwarts Express; this is kind of another one of those moments.

Andrew: They’re letting Hogwarts breathe.

Micah: Sure.

Andrew: No, seriously. And then we get a shot of Hermione. We also get a shot… if y’all can see, we get a glimpse of the new Hogwarts emblem, and it almost looks like the H has roots growing out of it on the top and bottom, which is also kind of interesting, because if we look at the logo really quick, it almost looks like there’s spots that could be a wand or could be roots. See this second T? See the tree roots?

Laura: Oh, yeah, totally.

Andrew: I don’t know what to make of that yet, but interesting.

Micah: So will they not wear clothing that has their House emblems on them? Will it just be Hogwarts?

Andrew: No, I’m thinking this is just pre-Sorting?

Eric: It’s got to be pre-Sorting. Maybe.

Andrew: Yeah. Also an episode fully dedicated to the Sorting Hat ceremony. You’re going to get the song; you’re going to get every name…

Eric: The song! Oh, that’s going to be amazing.

Laura: I can’t wait for that.

Andrew: I think Hermione is probably my favorite casting so far. She’s so adorable, I can’t stand it.

Laura: I know.

Eric: Yeah, she really is.

Laura: And she’s just… she’s so good. I believe her as Hermione, and we haven’t even heard any… I mean, if you’ve listened to the audiobook, you have.

Eric: Well, she’s had practice. I was going to say, she’s already narrated three books at this point. [laughs]

Laura: Right. No, but she’s just so good.

Micah: Does she speak in the trailer or no?

Laura: No, but if you’ve seen any footage of her playing Matilda on the West End, it will become immediately apparent to you why she is perfect casting for Hermione. And yeah, it’s just… I’m so excited.

Andrew: Yeah. Okay, moving along here. There’s our first look at Snape; we also got an official still. Y’all, I was getting some text messages from Laura last night. Go off. What’s on your mind?

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Listen, I did not have thirsting over Severus Snape on my bingo card, but here we are. Yeah, I was sharing some thoughts with Andrew. It’s definitely going to be interesting to watch the show because…

Eric: Those screenshots are this week’s bonus MuggleCast.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s just Laura’s thirst posts.

Laura: Actually, we can do that.

Andrew: Yeah, with Laura’s permission, I would… yeah, we could post.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, it’s fine.

Andrew: I don’t know if I want to post what I sent you, but… [laughs]

Laura: Oh yeah, no, don’t do that.

Micah: Oh, what did you send?

Andrew: I’ll send it to y’all later.

Micah: It’s a little Heated Rivalry?

Andrew: No, not quite. Let’s just say this show… some people have been saying this series isn’t going to make the cultural impact that the movies did, but there’s already some really funny stuff coming online about this show. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah. Well, and so the thing is… obviously we have heard all of the discourse. It’s not new to any of us, or probably to anyone listening, from people who are being such purists about the books and then about Alan Rickman’s portrayal of Snape, and thinking that only somebody who looks like Alan Rickman could play the role of Snape. I completely disagree. Paapa Essiedu, if you’ve never seen him in anything else, he is an amazing actor, and I will confess he is way too hot to be Snape.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: He is. There was nothing they could do to make him look greasy and oily the way that Snape is originally described. But I think what it’s going to come down to is, can Paapa portray that same sense of resentful solitude that Snape carries? I think it’s all going to be in how he carries himself, and how he portrays the character, and it’s just a bonus that he’s eye candy. I can’t… I think the craziest thing about this… we all know this as the Harry Potter generation, millennials who grew up with these the original movies. Everyone was thirsting after Sean Biggerstaff in the original movies. This time it’s Snape, and that’s crazy to me.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: But no, that’s the thing that strikes me, is young Snape. That’s your book purity right there, is that Snape is his canonical age. Young 30s for Severus Snape.

Micah: So before we move on from the thirsting and Snape…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … somebody – or actually multiple things that I looked at – said if you look at where his wand is, it’s almost like you get a glimmer of the Invisibility Cloak.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Oh, really?

Eric: It’s a little bit of smoke, like a little puff.

Micah: It’s hard to… yeah, because it keeps hover… yeah.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, yeah, there is some smoke there. That’s interesting.

Micah: So maybe that’s when Harry is in the Restricted Section, or… right? There’s the moment where Snape is arguing with Quirrell, and Harry comes upon him and… if I’m remembering that correctly.

Eric: You know what’s interesting, is at this juncture… how far are we into the trailer? And there haven’t been many special effects. We’re a minute and 43 into the trailer.

Andrew: I want to get to that. That’ll be part of what we didn’t like, so let’s circle back to that.

Eric: Oh, well, Micah’s mention of the Invisibility Cloak, or the possibility of Invisibility Cloak, is why I’m mentioning it now, because… I mean, the wand tip is a special effect, but there’s not been… apart from the maybe ghost we saw earlier, there really hasn’t been a lot of magic, and I like it because it grounds it in reality. That’s my personal take on it.

Andrew: That has been one of the criticisms, though, and I don’t say I agree with that criticism, because like I said at the top of this, this is an introduction to Harry Potter generally. I mean, I don’t know why anybody would even bother airing that criticism, because obviously we’re going to be getting magic. I mean, it’s just… people just look for things to complain about. But I have seen a lot of people bringing that up. But there’s your magic, y’all; there’s the Invisibility Cloak. Don’t you see it? Okay, so now we get a shot of Dumbledore. This is the only shot of Dumbledore in the trailer. He’s wearing a different hat than he does at Hogwarts usually, including the cap that we see him wearing in an official still, which, by the way, was such a badass shot of him. I almost thought it was CGI; it didn’t look real to me. But we see Dumbledore, and then he turns and kind of looks over his shoulder. He’s wearing this hat that makes me think this is a flashback of sorts. He’s also holding a sort of… people have told me this is a piano tuner, normally.

Eric: It’s a tuning fork, yeah.

Andrew: Tuning fork. So I’m guessing this is something involving Flamel, and he’s trying to seek out some magic or something.

Eric: Maybe. He does say, “Music, a magic beyond all that we teach here.”

Andrew: Any other thoughts on this?

Micah: I like that suggestion that this is something that we haven’t seen before.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Shot of the trio, and then there’s… let’s play it with sound on again. We talked about this earlier; probably worth mentioning again. This is the scene that really sold it for Micah.

[Audio clip plays]

Ron: Are you really Harry Potter? [makes exploding sound]

[Audio clip ends]

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: I love Harry’s little nod too. I feel like that’s more in line… and apparently, that’s what actually happens in the book; Harry just nods, whereas in the movie, he goes, “I’m Harry, Harry Potter,” right? And then Ron doing that little [makes exploding sound] thing out of his forehead where Harry’s scar is… just really, really good.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And Ron has the smudge on his nose still?

[Andrew gasps]

Laura: Yeah, he does.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

[Ad break]

Andrew: That’s pretty much the trailer. Is there anything y’all didn’t like? We’ve been very positive about the trailer. Any other criticisms?

Eric: Really, the jersey stands out to me.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: But I’ve already voiced that, so that’s… for me, I want them to have as authentic to the books kind of looks and feels when it makes sense, and if they are going to borrow something from the movie, I want it to be something smart versus something recognizable.

Laura: This is not my own critique, but it is a critique I’ve seen a lot online, but I’ve also heard from just talking to friends, and I think it is valid. There are some people, especially people like us who grew up with these movies, who felt like watching this trailer was a little bit like seeing an alternate universe reality where Dan, Emma, and Rupert weren’t cast for these roles, and so it was sort of like, “If I went to watch Harry Potter in a different timeline.” And I think it’s giving people some uncanny valley feelings, and I think that’s totally valid. But I think that also goes back to the point that you were making earlier, Andrew, which is that we have to be able to accept that this is different. They’re different portrayals; we’re going to see different versions of the characters that we love. So it’ll just take people some time.

Andrew: Yeah, I did want to… I think, Eric, you mentioned at the top of this, too, no “Hedwig’s Theme.” And I just wanted to say, I’m glad there was no “Hedwig’s Theme” in this. This show is already facing a lot of backlash, mainly because of J.K. Rowling, but then we talked previously about people are looking at the photos of Hagrid and being like, “Well, what’s the point of this series when everybody’s just going to look the same?” Obviously, that’s not fully the case. But including “Hedwig’s Theme” – and I do still think they’re going to use it for this TV show – but including “Hedwig’s Theme” would have invited more of that criticism of “This is more of the same.” So I’m glad they steered clear of that.

Laura: Same.

Eric: Yeah, I’m surprised. We haven’t even had a Fantastic Beasts movie that hasn’t done “Hedwig’s Theme” in its trailer, so I’m very off-put in a good way that maybe the series could stand alone. Maybe they won’t use it at all. But I will say, I’m hoping the next trailer brings us closer to Peeves, the poltergeist.

Andrew: We did get it confirmed – and we’ll talk about it in bonus MuggleCast – that Peeves is going to be in the series.

Eric: This has been kept from me! I have not seen this!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I’m excited.

Andrew: It’s true, yeah.

Micah: As a Ravenclaw, though, I will say, even though we know who is playing Flitwick, I would have liked to have seen him in the trailer.

Andrew: Well, actually…

Micah: We got all the other Heads of House.

Andrew: But that builds on my point. They don’t want to invite the criticisms of, “Oh, this is just the same. It’s the movies again.” That would have invited that criticism.

Micah: Well, then they shouldn’t have cast him again, but that’s a whole other conversation.

Andrew: I agree with that too.

Micah: But I mean, I didn’t really have too much of an issue with anything in this trailer that I felt negatively about.

Andrew: Same.

Micah: I was pleasantly surprised. And if there was one thing, I think I would just go back to what I said earlier, that we didn’t get anything related to the actual plot, but I don’t think that was the intention of this trailer.

Andrew: Yeah. So next trailer, plot and magic, please. And some Warwick Davis for Micah.

Micah: And Peeves for Eric.

Eric: And Peeves.

Micah: And Quirrell.

Andrew: And for Laura, hot Snape. And then what do I want?

Laura: Oh, yeah. I need at least 50% more hot Snape in the next trailer.

Andrew: I want Dumbledore in his Hogwarts gear, not this flashback stuff. I want to see his full getup.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: How about some Flamel?

Andrew: Yeah, I guess. I’m still scarred from the Flamel in Fantastic Beasts. I don’t want to see him.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: He lives under your bed. He’s like the crypt keeper from that series.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Basically. That’s okay; you can just touch him and he’ll fall to dust.

Andrew: You know what I would like? I would like Gringotts in the next trailer and going down into the vaults to get Harry’s money. I think that would be really cool.

Micah: Hogwarts? The exterior.

Andrew: Hogwarts too. Right, right. Yeah, they’re saving that. They’re saving that nugget.


Lynx Line


Andrew: All right, so we asked our patrons: “Give us your trailer thoughts.” Daniel said,

“I felt for Harry. The look of pain with the haircut, bullies at school, crying in his cupboard. Then the immense joy when he gets to go to Hogwarts. It has very uplifting music. I’m pumped for Christmas, especially with the Christmas scenes I saw!”

Eric: Carina says,

“I can only say I was in tears. Watching this trailer was so emotional for me. I think it looks great. I have always said that I don’t want this new adaptation, but I will try to love it since I can’t stop it.”

Micah: Steph said,

“Only thing that could have made it better… instead of the dramatic score ending the trailer on the ‘Christmas 2026’ screen, end it with the audio of the students singing the Hogwarts school song. Loved every bit of this trailer! Feed me more, HBO!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Megan says,

“I was not expecting to feel like this, but I teared up! Especially Harry looking so little in his Quidditch robes. This trailer is more than I expected. It really feels like the book comes to life – the world building seems incredible, and I love the world. I am now officially very excited for this.”

Andrew: Stef – who was just on the show a couple weeks ago as a cohost – she said,

“I was initially surprised when Bel Powley was announced as Petunia since she’s so young, but she eats this trailer up and is honestly incredible in everything I’ve seen her in. Petunia trying to cut Harry’s impossibly unruly hair in the book always felt like such a poignant metaphor for her trying to tame his magic…”

So I’ve got to be honest, y’all; I forgot that was in the book too.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: I clearly need to reread Philosopher’s Stone. I’m just calling it that from now on. My copy is called Philosopher’s Stone.

Eric: Oh my gosh.

Andrew: So Stef loves that they included that shot.

“Daniel Radcliffe’s short hair in the later movies always felt less magical in that subtle way. Also, Qyburn as Ollivander is brilliant casting.”

Eric: Girishma says,

“I didn’t expect to see so much in the trailer! Also getting to see Harry’s Muggle life prior to ‘Yer a wizard, Harry’ with the abuse from Petunia and bullying in school wrecked me. I think they’re going to hit an interesting balance of dark themes and lighthearted fantasy elements from the start. Feels like the tone of the Percy Jackson show to me, which I love! This trailer is going to get me through the rest of this year.”

Micah: And Zachary brings us home. He says,

“Goosebumps and tears is how I can describe it. This teaser felt more like a full entree than a taste of what’s to come. There’s only one thing that bugs me, and who knows? Maybe after watching the show, my opinion will change. It seems they used the entire budget for everything but the broomsticks. Maybe it’s to add to the whimsical sense of the show, but the box for the Nimbus 2000 seemed way better than the actual broom. It’s a very minor criticism, but as the pod says, ‘We criticize because we care.'”

Andrew: Darn right.

Micah: Yes, we do.

“Other than that, I love everything about this. It’s the same story we all as kids came to know and love with the films, but very different and its own thing. I get emotional knowing my kids, particularly my son, will get to have the same experience as I did growing up with this story. Just turned the age to receive his letter last month.”

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Andrew: Thanks for that feedback, patrons. Coming up on future TV-focused episodes of the show – remember, we’re now doing one of these per month – we will continue to cover any news that happens. I think now the gates are open, baby. We’re going to be getting more in the weeks and months ahead. But we’ll also talk about things like the changes the movies made to the books that the show must keep in, what our biggest fears about the show are, will Cursed Child canon be involved in the show? Will Pottermore content be involved? And lots more. We have lots of different topics planned that we’ve been saving for these TV show episodes.

Eric: Again, thanks, Micah, for planning all that out.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, and we’ll just save it for another episode. And listeners, we would love your feedback about today’s episode and the trailer. Please send it in. Let us know what you would like us to discuss from the trailer or about the TV show in the weeks and months ahead. Don’t forget about our special Patreon promotion right now; to celebrate the release of the TV show this year in 2026, you can go to Patreon.com/MuggleCast right now and use code “2026” to get 26% off the first month of your membership. Next week, we will return to Chapter by Chapter with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 21, “The Unknowable Room.”

Micah: I think I’m planning that one too.

Andrew: Oh, Micah, you’re so busy these days.

Micah: I know.

Andrew: And you’re doing bonus MuggleCast. Wow, wow. Hey, well, I’m editing this in the next 24 hours, so I’m working too.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and don’t forget to follow us if you’re a new listener; we’ll keep you on top of the latest Harry Potter TV show news. No Quizzitch this week, but it will resume next week. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Andrew: Hot Snape, I’ll give you Laura’s number.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Choo-choo.

Transcript #744

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #744, Hokey Pokey (HBP Chapter 20, ‘Lord Voldemort’s Request’)


Cold Open


Laura: “I did my part, Harry. I’m prepared, Harry. What did you bring to the table? Nothing.” [laughs] That’s Dumbledore.

Andrew: It was very passive aggressive.

Laura: It really was. I’m glad that you can admit that, Andrew.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so be sure to follow us in your podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode. This week, hide your valuable family heirlooms well, because we’re discussing Chapter 20 of Half-Blood Prince, “Lord Voldemort’s Request.” But before we do that, couple of announcements.

Laura: Yeah, so I was actually recently on our friend Barry’s podcast, Retold: A Fantasy Podcast. Barry is currently working his way through Goblet of Fire in his podcast, and I know it’s very heavily focused on Harry Potter a lot of the time, but I also know that he’s looking into doing deep dives on other fantasy stories and genres and stuff, so definitely give him a follow and check the show out. It’s really, really fun.

Micah: We actually got a chance to see Barry for the first time in a long time – although, Laura, you saw him probably most recently – but just in our recent Slug Club hangout, and he is a new dad. Officially, congratulations on MuggleCast. We’ll say it on MuggleCast.

Laura: For sure.

Andrew: He is a new dad, who lives not too far from Laura…

Laura: That’s right.

Andrew: … and we were talking about that he went to see Cursed Child in the Atlanta area a couple weeks ago, and then we were like, “Laura, did you go?” [laughs]

Laura: You know what’s funny about that? I’m actually, mileage-wise, closer to that than Barry would be.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So yeah, that makes me look doubly bad. Oops.

Andrew: Well, at this point, it’s just an on-running joke, I think. It’s turning into a joke that Laura has not seen Cursed Child, especially now, since it’s gone through her backyard.

Micah: She will; don’t worry.

Laura: I mean, eventually I will. It just… I don’t know. I’ve heard great things about the production. I just… I don’t know. I don’t feel like I need it, you know what I mean?

Andrew: I get that. It was funny during the Slug Club hangout, because you were like, “Oh, I think it’s still here,” and then I looked up the dates and it had just finished the day before.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Whoops.

Micah: And then Barry pops on, and he’s like, “I just recently saw it.”

Eric: “I just came back from the…” yeah.

Andrew: All right, well, also a little announcement concerning the show: Beginning the first full week of April, our recording and release schedule is changing. New episodes of MuggleCast will be released on Tuesdays for Patreons and Wednesdays for everyone else. Patrons, we also have some changes to the recording schedule that you’ll see over on Patreon, so be sure to check those out if you like tuning in for the livestreams, and maybe if our livestream recording schedule hasn’t worked for you before, maybe now it will. We’ll have a mix of weekend and Monday recordings, so please check that out.

Eric: This is exciting. And Andrew, before you get to the next segment, I hope you have that audio clip ready.

Andrew: Oh, yes, I do.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The timing on this better be perfect, because I love it. I love what I’m seeing here.

Andrew: [laughs] So yes, listeners, if you love MuggleCast as much as Hokey loves doing the Hokey Pokey…

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

Andrew: … then we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, live access to our recording studio, a monthly Zoom hangout – we’ve been talking about a lot of these benefits at the top of the show today – and lots more. We can’t do this without you, so thank you so much in advance for your support.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, now let’s get to Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 20, “Lord Voldemort’s Request.”

Eric: The episode in which we last discussed this, 411, was called “RiddleGin,” and it debuted on April 1 – so almost exactly seven years ago – 2019. Here is our Pensieve clip.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 411.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Laura: But what I want to know is how does this work logistically? Because presumably these girls are trapped or unconscious somewhere where Draco just goes and harvests their hair for more Polyjuice.

Micah: Maybe it’s Pansy. Maybe she goes into the girl’s bathroom and just kind of unclogs the sink and…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Eugh. I was going to say, just grab the comb.

Micah: Yeah, or grabs their comb.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Anyway, that’s the girl update. We’ll check in with them maybe in the chapters ahead.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: [laughs] That would have been a terrible thing to say if Laura wasn’t on the podcast.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I’m like, “That’s the girl update! Back to the boys.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, yeah, because I was there, you get a pass, basically.

Micah: It’s okay.

[Andrew and and Laura laugh]

Micah: I do feel like we were going down the true crime pathway, though.

Eric: It was interesting.

Laura: 100%.

Micah: Well, interesting is one word, but…

Eric: We had a whole discussion, yeah.

Laura: I mean, it sounds like I’m the one that took us there, based on the clip.

Eric: Well, you even gave the girls names. Crabbe and Goyle were “Melody” and “Clarissa.”

Laura: Oh, I really went all out on that.

Eric: It was basically like Serial, but for whatever Draco is doing, how he’s getting this hair.

Laura: Justice for these girls. Really unfortunate that we never really hear what happens to them, but I’m glad that we apparently spent so much time on them the last time we discussed this chapter, because we’re not really going to talk about that side of things very much, if at all, today.

Eric: Right.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: The focus of today’s discussion is specifically going to be on each of the memories that Harry and Dumbledore go into. So I want to start out with Hepzibah Smith, the first memory. And I also just wanted to call out, just to kind of help localize us, where are we on the timeline. According to the HP Wiki, this happened sometime between 1955 and 1961, so 10-15 years after Tom Riddle left Hogwarts-ish.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: So the first memory in this chapter, and kind of the way that I wanted to frame the discussion, is from this point of view, because the memory belongs to Hokey the house-elf, who we learn is convicted of accidentally killing her mistress, Hepzibah Smith. At this point in time in this memory, Tom Riddle is working at Borgin and Burkes as an assistant, but we definitely get the impression that he is more gifted than a typical assistant. Definitely seems like he’s able to lay on the flattery very thick with certain clients, namely Hepzibah.

Eric: Yeah, and the flattery is something he’s perfected his whole Hogwarts career, right? So really only Dumbledore is capable of seeing through it. But Dumbledore tells Harry, as he introduces this memory to him, that so many people were shocked that Voldemort got this position in a shop. I guess it’s sort of viewed as maybe a relatively low role for him, because he could have gone into politics, or with Slughorn’s backing, been connected to any career he wanted. But I remember thinking while reading this, both for the first time and now, what a perfect role for Tom Riddle. We know of his affiliation with the Dark Arts, and for Borgin and Burke, this shop that sells all of these Dark artifacts, it will be a dream come true to have all of this just thrust right in front of you, like, “Hey, I’m trying to sell this. Can you tell me what it’s worth?” And he finds, “Oops, that’s actually a legitimate heirloom.” Locket just shows up right under his nose. This would be a perfect role for Tom.

Micah: It does make you wonder, would he have been better off at Hogwarts under Dumbledore’s watchful eye? And I know that’s probably a discussion we’re going to have throughout the course of this episode, but I really do wonder that question, versus, like you’re saying, Eric, almost feeding his appetite for Dark artifacts and Dark Arts working in a place like Borgin and Burke.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: I’m wondering, is it explained at all? Did Dumbledore know at the time that Tom was working at Borgin and Burkes? I guess it would be easy information to acquire.

Laura: I think especially given how disappointed so many of the faculty reportedly were.

Andrew: Yeah, true.

Laura: Because it really does seem like it was a shock to a lot of the faculty at Hogwarts that Tom Riddle would decide to just be some lowly shop assistant. Little did they know what he was actually up to.

Andrew: Right. In a way, he’s kind of working in retail. That’s why this is sort of so shocking for somebody like Tom.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: The reason I ask about Dumbledore is because I wonder if, knowing he did work at Borgin and Burkes, he was trying to keep some sort of close eye on him. He would want to keep an eye on him from a distance if he’s not going to be at Hogwarts.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s a really great call-out, because Dumbledore… I mean, we’ve seen that he’s been suspicious of Tom, I mean, since he was a child, honestly. So it does stand to reason that Dumbledore… even if we don’t see it on the page, it stands to reason that Dumbledore might have his finger on the pulse somehow of what certain former students are up to.

Eric: And yet, to the question about would Voldemort have been better off at Hogwarts, like if Dippet had told him that he could just go there… I’m not sure, though, because more based on what happens during the second memory, I think Tom would have had more access to that so-called ancient magic that apparently he’s trying to get at that Hogwarts has. So I think the more time spent at Hogwarts… if the seven years didn’t do it, during which he found the Chamber of Secrets, killed a girl, and got up to all sorts of other mischief with a spate of really strange, Dumbledore said, I think, occurrences that always had a scapegoat, but we don’t know what was really happening, it’s good that Voldemort had to leave school and could never really come back for any period of time.

Micah: It is important, though, to note that this wasn’t Dumbledore’s call, though. It was Dippet’s call.

Eric: Right, right.

Micah: And we know that Dumbledore definitely heavily influenced that decision-making, but who knows? If he wasn’t as aggressive in campaigning against Tom, Tom could have ended up working there, because there’s no reason to think that Dippet didn’t think highly of him.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah. Becky in the Discord is bringing up something interesting, and I want to check on this with y’all. She’s saying, “Dumbledore has been taking trips through the Vanishing Cabinet and spying.”

Andrew: That would be pretty awesome if that were true.

Eric: Oh.

Laura: Okay, do we know for certain how long the Vanishing Cabinet has been at Hogwarts? Because if it was at Hogwarts and functional during this period of time, and its sister was also at Borgin and Burkes and functional, could Dumbledore have been looking in that way?

Eric: Man. I love that theory. And maybe…

Laura: I do love that.

Eric: Because it wasn’t broken until Fred and George shoved Montague in there a little too hard.

Laura: Right.

Eric: So yeah, I actually really like that.

Andrew: Arthur Weasley does mention in Order of the Phoenix that during the first wizarding war, numerous witches and wizards used Vanishing Cabinets to anonymously disappear. That’s the furthest back. But I seem to recall getting the impression that that cabinet has been there for a really long time at Hogwarts.

Laura: Yeah. Security nightmare, honestly.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Direct door from Borgin and Burkes in Knockturn Alley into Hogwarts? Please.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Eric: I mean, I wonder if Voldemort ever discovered it. Probably not.

Laura: Yeah, you would think not, because…

Eric: Unless… because he would have used it before. But maybe he also told Draco about it, like, “Hey, I used to work at Borgin and Burke. You should go in there and see if there’s this cabinet there.” And Draco is like, “Oh, all right.”

Laura: I do love that. Because do we ever get an explanation as to how…? Well, I guess Draco kind of figures it out because of what happens to Montague.

Eric: Yeah, he overheard it, and Montague is in his House so he interviews Montague.

Laura: Yeah, okay.

Eric: Still, it puts Voldemort at a strange proximity to the means by which Draco is able to accomplish his mission in this book.

Andrew: That’s what I love about this idea.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I just have to think that if Voldemort knew about it… I don’t know. Why would he have been trying so hard to get a job at Hogwarts? He could have had an easy backdoor in the entire time to go hunt around for high school memorabilia, because he can’t get over that time in his life. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, maybe he would want the pride of actually being invited to teach at Hogwarts, getting that invite.

Laura: Maybe. He does have an ego. But we’ll get more into his job interview here in a few minutes.

[Ad break]

Laura: Continuing to center our discussion around Hokey’s point of view, just because we don’t often get things expressed from a house-elf point of view, and I think it’s just an interesting way to look at it. So Hokey, of course, witnesses Tom Riddle’s visit and his interaction with her mistress, where he’s really, again, laying the flattery on super thick. And she shows him a couple of her most prized trinkets, Slytherin’s locket and Hufflepuff’s cup, and a couple of days after that interaction, Hepzibah Smith is dead, and Hokey confesses to accidentally mixing a “little-known poison” into Hepzibah’s evening cocoa instead of sugar. And of course, since Hokey confessed, the Ministry was more than happy to accept a house-elf as the scapegoat for this scenario, and nobody even thought to ask, “Why on earth would this old woman and her house-elf have this little-known poison? Why would they have that?”

Eric: Maybe she was watching Breaking Bad and was interested because it was ricin…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: … just growing in a plant nearby, and she was like, “Oops.” Just in the garden.

Andrew: But are we to believe that Hokey did accidentally put something in Hepzibah’s drink? Or did Tom Riddle mess with her mind about that too?

Eric: Yeah, Tom Riddle probably supplied the poison, but just put it in the house and then… yeah.

Andrew: Okay. Because what if…? Maybe she would have a potion that she would add into her drink that had some sort of medicinal properties, maybe some sort of sickness medication, and she accidentally… she’s like, “Oh my gosh, I must have…” yeah, as I say this, I realize it’s not…

Micah: You ask a good question, though, Andrew, because you would think that if, in fact, poison is at the center here, that they would have at least confirmed that that is how she died. We don’t… I mean, maybe we shouldn’t believe that the Ministry isn’t that incompetent at the end of the day. But just because Hokey is admitting to putting poison into Hepzibah’s drink doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the means in which she died; that’s just how Hokey happens to be recounting the story. But that would assume that the Ministry is doing a full investigation here and making sure that things add up.

Laura: And they’re not.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, and it’s interesting because… yeah, no. And it is said in a previous chapter that the Ministry, when inspecting the deaths of the Riddles, they immediately know that they’ve been AK’ed, whereas maybe Voldemort really did poison Hepzibah to kill her and not just…

Micah: I think he did.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think it’s either he did it and he just planted a false memory, or he Imperiused Hokey and made her do it. So maybe in that, he doesn’t have to tinker with her memory at all. I know Dumbledore says he does; I think he calls out a little later that much like Morfin, Voldemort had planted a false memory, but honestly, I think it could go either way.

Micah: Right. And Mev brings up a good question in the Discord that relates to something I wanted to mention. She asks, “I wonder if they have forensics in the wizarding world.” And that made me wonder… I’m curious how much other departments at the Ministry are involved when a crime like this is committed, because two departments that came to mind for me would have been the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes, which would deal with memory, and the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, which would deal with house-elves. As opposed to what you were saying earlier, Laura, Hokey is just the convenient scapegoat, which really is kind of Tom Riddle’s M.O.

Eric: Right, it’s an interesting pattern. He always blames somebody that’s right there and not well-liked. Hagrid got blamed successfully for opening the Chamber without real proof, and Morfin, of course… Voldemort needed to start manufacturing proof, whether it’s a false memory or Hokey remembering that she put the poison in or confessing to it. But his M.O. is exactly the same in all three cases.

Andrew: It is a good question, Micah, about these different departments, but this also is making me wonder, what about some sort of elf rights group like SPEW? But let’s say run by adults, with all due respect to Hermione. I would assume there are some sort of magical creature rights groups in the wizarding world who feel passionately about magical creatures and house-elves. Think of just an animal rights group in the Muggle world who would stand up for animals when their habits and whatnot are being threatened. See Hoppers, the new Pixar movie. It’s really good.

Eric: Yeah, or lawyers that would give free representation on behalf of a magical creature that is falsely accused.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, I think I would also just call out, again, the time period we’re looking at, because it’s allegedly 1955-1961, and we weren’t doing so hot with that stuff in the Muggle world at that point…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Ahh, yeah.

Laura: … so I have to imagine they weren’t in the wizarding world. In fact, I doubt…

Eric: Well, then again, Laura, they had a Black female president of MACUSA in the 1920s.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: The wizards are way ahead of us, generally.

Andrew: Yes. Just another reason why wizards are amazing, and we wish to be them.

Laura: Yeah, it’s just a little inconvenient that the diversity element kind of goes backwards in the wizarding world, because it is incredibly diverse when you’re looking at representations from the ’20s, and then the more modern you get…

Micah: Well, I think there’s a reason for that, isn’t it? Because the Fantastic Beasts series were made…

Eric: Made a lot closer to the modern era, yeah.

Micah: … after the Harry Potter series was written.

Laura: Well, yeah, that’s what I mean.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: There was a need to diversify.

Laura: Oh, 100%. But at any rate…

Eric: To your point, Laura, I think in the ’50s or ’60s, whenever this happened, it would be like all the pure-blood families gasped and clutched their pearls and were like, “Well, I hope my house-elf would never make that mistake,” kind of a thing, and everyone else just kind of went about their days.

Micah: And in fairness, I don’t even know that those two departments that I mentioned were around or fully functional at the time that this happened.

Laura: Right. Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: True.

Laura: I think, too, there’s a good sort of connecting the threads moment here between Hokey and Winky. Obviously Winky gets whatever justice it is that exists for house-elves in this world at the time that she is so maligned, but yet again, we see another case of a house-elf taking the fall for the evil doings of a wizard.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: And it’s all tied to Voldemort. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, that’s true.

Laura: Poor Hokey. Speaking of Hokey – and I’m glad that we’re having the discussion about house-elf welfare and rights – what do we think happened to her? I don’t think we specifically find out what punishment she may have received.

Andrew: Like in the immediate aftermath, yeah. Well, I’m sure… yeah, I’m sure she was absolutely devastated by her alleged action.

Laura: Of course.

Andrew: So it’s just depressing to think about that she ended up living out her final years… because we do hear that she died. I don’t know how many years later, but we did hear that she died.

Eric: It’s really weird, Andrew; Dumbledore shows up and keeps interviewing these people that are weeks away from death.

Andrew: Very lucky.

Eric: They turn up dead right after Dumbledore speaks to them. It’s a weird coincidence. It’s happened twice now.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh.

Micah: I wonder if it’s the release of the truth finally…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Kills them?

Eric: It sets them free?

Andrew: And that’s why you keep your real feelings in, ladies and gentlemen. Just kidding.

Laura: #KeepTheSecrets.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, presumably, though, with Hokey, this was traumatic. Just think about how Winky reacts when she’s convicted of all of the things in Goblet of Fire, and just the way that she behaves being separated from the Crouch family. So I think it has to be devastating for a house-elf. And presumably, Hokey served that family for a long time, which makes me even angrier that the crime wasn’t investigated further. This house-elf has been taking care of Hepzibah Smith for who knows how long, and just so happens to poison her one night by accident.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point too.

Eric: To be fair, though, I think, too, that if you’re an accomplished witch or wizard, you probably have quite a few potion ingredients at your home, maybe a few antidotes, maybe a few poisons. Not because you’re going to have the poisons or even administer the poisons, but poisons as… maybe you solved one, or it’s your science experiment. Chemicals… I guess harmful chemicals people have under their sinks are the kinds of things I think about when I hear about what happened with Hokey and Hepzibah.

Andrew: Yeah, what if it was an expired potion that killed her?

Eric: Exactly. Now you have kind of where I tend to think of it as being from, but the way that Dumbledore is telling it to Harry, it does look like it was a rare poison that had no business being there that should have raised more red flags than it did, but I’m wondering if we’re just getting an oversimplification from Dumbledore for the point of telling Harry the story.

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Micah: It is kind of messed up that we don’t learn what happens to her. I know she’s, I think, charged with manslaughter, or that’s… but they also recognize the fact that she didn’t do this intentionally, that it was an accident. So I wonder if she even ended up going to… would she go to Azkaban? Or if she’s not officially charged, maybe…

Laura: It doesn’t say.

Eric: Is there like a house-elves’ prison…?

Micah: Or is she just wandering the earth?

Eric: … like an Orange Is the New Black situation where you’re just in a prison for a little bit…

Micah: Right, where did Dumbledore track her down?

Laura: Yeah. I mean, it does say she was convicted of accidentally killing her mistress, and at one point Dumbledore notes she was old, and so I think they chalk a lot of it up to her being an old house-elf. But let’s talk a little bit about Hepzibah, too, because I think we have to spend some time with her. So we find out in this dream that… in this dream. [laughs] In this memory, that Hepzibah is an indirect descendant of Helga Hufflepuff. I think it’s really important to point out “indirect” here. And she’s an easy target for someone like Tom. She’s definitely Slughorn-light in that she collects things, not people, but she is just… forgive use of the term, but it makes me think of hoarding. She is surrounded by mountains and piles of stuff and antiques and other kinds of historical trinkets of significance, and her collection is so vast, and she apparently has so many different places that she squirrels things away – all the things that she cares about the most, that she really wants to hide – she has so many places where she does that that it takes her family some time after she’s died to realize that the locket and the cup are missing.

Andrew: Yeah. You don’t have to apologize for calling her a hoarder; I was going to use the same word.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: She’s a Material Girl.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Her possessions are her identity, it seems to me. This doesn’t seem like a particularly admirable person; she just assigns all this value in her life to what she’s collecting.

Eric: Can we soften the word “hoarder” and make it “magpie” or something? Don’t you all have that kooky aunt who collects little statues of carolers and has a single cupboard with…?

Andrew: Yeah, and she’s a hoarder too.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I hope she doesn’t listen to the podcast.

Eric: Kooky aunt… yeah.

Laura: But no, actually… yeah, and where I think you’re going with that, Eric, is I kind of feel a little bad for Hepzibah.

Eric: Yeah, there is a moment… she’s pitiable. I’m just rushing to her defense because fellow Hufflepuff connection.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But no, it’s not even her defense. There are actually some really stark, unflattering character traits that are very Hufflepuff-coded, which solidifies the whole bloodline thing. Because if I’m thinking about how to turn Hufflepuff’s traits downward into negativity, you find that level of… from possessiveness? I don’t know. From that clique-yness, their friendship and connections that Harry faces the brunt side of in year two, can transform to be extreme possessiveness or gluttony. It’s like, Helga Hufflepuff’s enduring artifact is a cup. She loved her drink. She loved to have fun and have revelry and all this stuff, but then those traits passed along families can morph into some of the negative traits we see within Hepzibah.

Laura: Yeah. And I really wanted to call out – and I think what you’re saying alludes to this too, Eric – just kind of the level of pomp and self-importance she applies to herself because of her indirect descendant status from Hufflepuff. She’s really taken it upon herself to be a collector of all kinds of things. It’s clear in this memory that this is not Tom’s first visit to see her.

Eric: Right.

Laura: She hoards a lot of valuable things, and she often makes sales or trades things with Borgin and Burkes.

Eric: I think she’s just old money, though. She has nothing else to do. She has all this money, and it’s probably generational wealth. It’s probably inherited wealth from being a descendant of one of the most well-known witches of all time, too. So I see her as not being an outlier in terms of wealth for her family; it’s just some people, that’s what they do with it. They collect stuff, stuff they don’t need, even stuff that would interest them, that they pride themselves on being their special little collector item.

Andrew: Well, to that point, Laura, you said it’s important we call out she’s an “indirect” descendant of Helga. Are you saying that because… why does she even have this cup?

Laura: It’s not even that; it’s more so… it reminds me a lot of Slughorn insofar as wanting to feel important, or position herself as some kind of central figure.

Andrew: Yeah. Why does she need this thing? [laughs]

Eric: Well, how did she get it?

Laura: Well, and it’s like… I mean, hey, she has Slytherin’s locket too.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: She stole it.

Laura: She has lots of stuff that isn’t technically family heirlooms of hers, but I think it’s more so… I mean, if I was going to put on my therapy hat and try to psychoanalyze her…

Andrew: Go for it.

Laura: … this feels like a deeply sad and insecure person who doesn’t really have real connections to other people, and so through the collection of all these artifacts, she’s making herself important. And she feels like if people will come and call on her for this…

Eric: Yes. Well, and that’s it; her social appointment book is wide open for Tom to come in and be like, “Oh, I’ll charm this old lady into giving me some of her stuff.” Unfortunately, she is very vulnerable and probably very insecure. Harry comes in… putting aside all the fatphobic language around Hepzibah, she is still described as adding unnecessary rouge, and just powdering up and trying to make herself more presentable than perhaps she is to meet with this handsome young man from the shop that’s come to look at her, and it’s just sad. I feel nothing but pity for Hepzibah, really.

Laura: Yeah, definitely… oh, go ahead, Micah.

Micah: She’s definitely of old money, though, right? She has a house-elf.

Eric: Yeah, that’s the thing. She’s directly descended enough to have Hufflepuff’s cup, which that would only go to, I don’t know, your direct daughter… unless at some point a first cousin stole it from the direct line, I don’t know how Hepzibah ends up with that.

Micah: And not to analyze too much, but she has a very common last name.

Eric: Well, yeah.

Micah: And that’s not to say that people with common last names can’t be wealthy, but in the context of the wizarding world, that does seem a little bit strange.

Andrew: No offense to any Smiths who are listening right now.

Micah: Zacharias?

Laura: Yeah, I was wondering that.

Eric: I think that’s what we’re meant to assume, because that’s the only other Smith in Harry Potter that I can recall.

Micah: In terms of Tom, though, he definitely does know the right buttons to push with Hepzibah, and this is, yet again, another situation, much like Slughorn, where he’s able to charm her. And I wanted to ask, do we make anything of the young attractive man charming the older wealthy woman trope?

Laura: Oh, 100%.

Andrew: Cougar situation, or what?

Micah: I don’t think there’s anything romantic here.

Andrew: Not from Tom’s side, at least. [laughs]

Micah: No, definitely not. I don’t even think from Hepzibah’s side, but his charm is definitely being used to the max.

Andrew: Yeah! He brings over flowers, doesn’t he?

Laura: Yes, and she likes the attention, right? She’s also getting something from it, but also, she doesn’t know what his ulterior motive is, so I would say this is elder abuse, what’s happening here.

Eric: Oh, very much so.

Andrew: She’s giving cat lady. Hokey is her cat, and she just sits alone by herself all day with Hokey, and yeah, she gets excited when a strapping young man comes over and expresses an interest in her.

Laura: Before we move on to the next memory, I just want to do a quick checkin. Let’s do Horcrux watch. So far during his rise to power, Tom has the diary. He got the ring from Morfin. Now he has the locket and the cup. Next on the list, does he go into Albania for the diadem? Is that what’s next?

Andrew: Next up, Albania! A trip to Albania, round trip, you and a friend will fly…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, that makes sense, Laura.

Eric: It’s interesting, though, because presumably Albania has been on his radar for a long time because he found that out from the Grey Lady, and that was while he was still at Hogwarts, so he’s waited a good long time to act on that. I would say what surprises me the most is that Voldemort now knows who swindled his mom out of his family’s locket, and somehow Borgin and Burke are both allowed to live.

Laura: Yeah. Ooh, that is an interesting point. Maybe we can pick that up after…

Eric: It might have been too conspicuous if he killed them then, but he lets both of them live.

Laura: No, that is very curious. Okay, we’re going to have to keep an eye on that, but for now, we need to take a quick break before we hop into our next memory.

[Ad break]

Laura: And now we’re going to talk about the second memory, a.k.a. Voldemort tries and fails to get the Defense Against the Dark Arts post again. And the second memory in this chapter belongs to Mr. Big Brain himself, Dumbledore.

Eric: [laughs] Mr. Superior Brainpower?

Laura: Yes, exactly.

Andrew: I do love when Harry says, “Whose memory is it?” And he says, “Mine.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I think that comes through in the movie as well.

Eric: It’s a flex.

Andrew: I don’t know, something about it is epic. We’ve seen memories from other people’s brains, but now it’s time for Dumbledore’s himself.

Eric: Here’s the thing: There haven’t been memories from other people’s brains that are deficient in any way.

Micah: The Mrs. Cole memory was his earlier on in the book. Also, this is after he chastised Harry for a couple of pages for not getting Slughorn’s memory.

Eric: Ugh.

Andrew: And that rubbed me the wrong way, by the way, but I don’t need to get into it.

Micah: Bro, do it yourself.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah. No, I’m glad that you brought that up, Micah, because he does spend a good long time kind of being like, “Huh, well, I did my part, Harry. I’m prepared, Harry. What did you bring to the table? Nothing.” [laughs] That’s Dumbledore.

Andrew: It was very passive aggressive.

Laura: It really was. I’m glad that you can admit that, Andrew.

Andrew: It was!

Laura: That’s growth.

Andrew: I’m admitting many flaws concerning Dumbledore in this Chapter by Chapter reread, I think. I’m going to come out of this series a new man in terms of my perspective on Dumbledore.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Maybe.

Laura: So this memory takes place around ten years after the last memory we visited with Hepzibah Smith, and during that time after Hepzibah’s murder, Tom Riddle randomly just disappears and peaces out for a decade. Nobody really knows where he goes or what happens to him. Of course, we know he’s over in Eastern Europe, and he has materialized in this memory because he wants to give it another shot at getting the Defense Against the Dark Arts position at Hogwarts. So he comes to meet with Dumbledore; he requests a meeting to try and sit down and convince Dumbledore to give him the position, and clearly, from the description of his physical attributes, all of that Horcruxing has started affecting those once handsome features. Eric, do you want to read this description?

Eric: Yeah, but my first thought, Laura, as you were saying that, was, “Not the once handsome features!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “Oh no!” But it’s true.

Laura: Oh no! What else did he have?

Eric: “It was as though his features had been burned and blurred; they were waxy and oddly distorted, and the whites of the eyes now had a permanently bloody look, though the pupils were not yet the slits that Harry knew they would become. He was wearing a long black cloak, and his face was as pale as the snow glistening on his shoulders.” Freaky.

Laura: Can we call for a “Max that” here?

Eric: Yes!

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Laura: Seriously, I need this, and I don’t want it to be a freakin’ montage.

Micah: So it can’t be something like Tom takes Albania?

Laura: Yeah, I don’t want a montage of all of these memories; I want to actually see them play out. And I think really getting to see some of what Voldemort was up to during the years that he disappeared, instead of just relying on Dumbledore to give us that secondhand narration… I think it could be really cool in the TV show, particularly during the sixth season, if each episode started out with a cold open…

Eric: Oooh.

Laura: … of like, “What is Tom Riddle doing concurrently on the timeline that will come into play in this episode?” I think would be really cool.

Eric: I like that a lot.

Andrew: And I think that is a somewhat common storytelling method, to kind of have those little scenes scattered throughout the course of the season to build to something.

Laura: Totally.

Micah: Well, given the appearance of Voldemort, I wonder, does Dumbledore suspect Horcruxes as early as this meeting with him?

Eric: Or does he suspect Madame Tussauds?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I think he’s expecting that Tom is at least doing something deeply disturbing. Maybe not Horcruxes, especially. But Eric, you actually had a quote later on; I’ll just read it now.

Eric: Sure.

Andrew: “‘Certainly,’ said Voldemort, and his eyes seemed to burn red. ‘I have experimented; I have pushed the boundaries of magic further, perhaps, than they have ever been pushed -‘ ‘Of some kinds of magic,’ Dumbledore corrected him quietly. ‘Of some. Of others, you remain… forgive me… woefully ignorant.’ For the first time, Voldemort smiled. It was a taut leer, an evil thing, more threatening than a look of rage. ‘The old argument,’ he said softly. ‘But nothing I have seen in the world has supported your famous pronouncements that love is more powerful than my kind of magic, Dumbledore.'”

So he knows something is awry, and it’s bad.

Eric: He’s been practicing anti-love face cream, and it’s turned his face to white wax or something.

Laura: Yeah. Well, Dumbledore also knows what Voldemort has started calling himself. They have that moment where Voldemort is like, “I’m not called that anymore.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And Dumbledore is like, “Yeah, I know what you’re called, okay? And also, I know you’ve got your little Death Eater friends over in Hogsmeade waiting for you to come and divulge what we talked about. So I’ve got your number, basically.” So Dumbledore, in general, he knows what Voldemort is up to; I just don’t know that he could specifically pinpoint Horcruxes at this point.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree. Well, that, and I mean, how much did Dumbledore know about Horcruxes? When did he start gathering this information himself as well? Because we see Hermione is trying to do her own research on Horcruxes, and she’s having a very hard time finding anything about them. So that just makes me think information has been very hard to come by for a long time.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I think at a certain point, Slughorn says that Dumbledore is particularly controlling of the subject and where it gets… I think… Hermione’s only resource is the library, the restricted section and non-restricted section, so all Dumbledore really had to do in an afternoon was go down there, find all the books that mentioned a Horcrux, and take them away. And Hermione would be like, “I got nothing, except this one mention in this one book,” and that would be all she could do. But we know he has these books because she gets them eventually, through questionable means in… I guess the end of this book. The end of this school year, anyway; beginning of next. So I don’t know. For me, Dumbledore definitely had some inkling, and definitely had some inkling by now, and at the very least, maybe even considered using Horcruxes himself or something.

Andrew: What?

Eric: Because the way that he hoards the knowledge about it, and is like, “Only I can know about this,” and the only person we ever hear talking about them besides Dumbledore is Slughorn… it’s weird.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, that gets more into the conversation, I think, of Hallows versus Horcruxes, too, which we’ll get into in the next book.

Eric: We’ll have plenty of time for that later.

Laura: Do we think…? I know we touched on this a little bit earlier, but once and for all, do we think that there was an argument for giving Voldemort the job so Dumbledore could keep his eye on him? Because it wouldn’t be the first time Dumbledore gave someone questionable a job at Hogwarts so that he could keep his eye on them.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I don’t know.

Eric: Well, as Dumbledore demonstrates in this chapter, he doesn’t need Tom to be at Hogwarts to keep a good eye on him.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I think… it’s tough for me. I am on the fence about it, because having him so close by would absolutely be helpful; no doubt about that. I think the benefit could have been Dumbledore could have stopped him from going full Voldemort. Maybe, maybe. And I was actually looking at some fanfics online in which Tom Riddle turns out decent. Still crazy, but not evil.

Micah: Wow.

Eric: What?! Aww.

Andrew: Yeah, not because Dumbledore saved him or anything, but it’s just kind of this alternate…

Micah: Nah, he wouldn’t.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Is it like the “If Hitler had gotten into art school” argument that people are trying to make with those fanfictions?

Andrew: [laughs] I didn’t read them, so I can’t tell you.

Laura: Okay. [laughs]

Micah: I just… in this particular visit, I don’t think it’s really Voldemort’s intent to get the Defense Against the Dark Arts position. I think he knows coming in that that’s not going to happen. The real reason is to hide the diadem in the Room of Requirement, and maybe do a little bit of recruiting while he’s there at Hogwarts. I also just don’t see him teaching. I don’t really think that he really wants this job the way maybe he once did when he was at school. And also, in being at Dumbledore’s office, maybe he’s looking for a Gryffindor Horcrux. He’s created a Slytherin, Hufflepuff, and Ravenclaw one at this point; I don’t know if he’s got his Horcrux radar up as he’s peering around Dumbledore’s office.

Laura: Yeah, especially with Dumbledore being a Gryffindor, right? So he’s probably wondering, “What do you have?” Yeah. No, for sure.

Eric: Well, presumably, he has the diadem with him right now too. The only time he…

Micah: Yeah, exactly. I mean, he’s going to hide it, right? While he’s…

Eric: Yeah, in the Room of Requirement. We don’t know exactly when Voldemort found out about the Room of Requirement, but that’s another interesting thread, because Dumbledore eventually is the one that hints to Harry that he knows about it. And if Voldemort knew about the Room of Requirement, why aren’t more people dead from when Voldemort was at school here? He would have used that room for awful stuff. It’s a big question.

Laura: Yeah. No, it really is. And there’s a lot of room for exposition there if they wanted to with the TV show.

Micah: Maybe it’s just as simple as it shows itself to him to hide it. Maybe he’s looking for a place to hide it.

Eric: Oh, and he never suspects… yeah, I think that’s right, actually. He never suspects that it’s anything more than the storage version.

Laura: Than just a room, yeah.

Eric: Okay, I take back what I said earlier.

Laura: It’s a good call. Well, I want to bring us to a close with the discussion just by talking about the moment that Voldemort curses the Defense Against the Dark Arts post.

Eric: Amazing.

Laura: This is so petty.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Because Voldemort doesn’t want the job.

Eric: “If I can’t have it, nobody can!”

Andrew: For more than a year.

Laura: [laughs] That’s basically what it is! Because Dumbledore is like, “Yeah, you didn’t come here expecting me to give you the job. I know that.” But Voldemort is still kind of ticked about it, and Harry almost reflexively shouts out for Dumbledore to move because he sees Voldemort’s wand hand twitch. But I think we’re meant to believe that’s the moment when he places the curse on the role, and then after this, they never have a DADA teacher for longer than a year.

Andrew: Yeah. And it’s crazy that anyone would want to take this role, knowing in time that there is a curse.

Laura: Right!

Andrew: But that’s a rant for another day.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say the same thing in terms of we can talk about this at another time, but just the fact that nobody seems to notice that this post turns over every single year? And that nothing is done. Why don’t the faculty or the governors of the school or the Ministry come in and break the curse?

Eric: Hashtag #StopTheCurse.

Andrew: Everybody’s incompetent. It’s not just Dumbledore.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Everybody’s weird about stuff like this.

Micah: I don’t know that Dumbledore is incompetent.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Here’s the thing: When Harry gets to Hogwarts, it’s already been a dozen or so years since the position was first cursed, and Harry learns… somebody even says, “Rumors are that the position is cursed” or whatever, but the way the… I think it’s clever, the different way in which each of the DADA teachers each year end up no longer having the position more than a year. So it’s different enough, the circumstances are different enough as to be like, there’s some plausible deniability over whether or not it’s cursed? But I can’t think of 13 more ways somebody could have left that position.

Micah: Like, “Dumbledore, why can you not hold somebody in that post for more than a year?” At some point, that becomes a poor reflection on him.

Eric: Well, maybe the first five or ten years, he was like, “I want to get as many different voices in the room as possible, because it’s really cool; I care about the students.”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that could be a good excuse.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, thanks for joining me for some deep analysis of those memories. I’m going to be really interested to see what feedback we get for this episode, compared to, apparently, what we covered last time, which was just turning this chapter into a true crime deep dive analysis.

Eric: It was really interesting, though. It was really interesting. I mean, just in case we don’t say this enough, my hope in showcasing a clip from the early episodes as we go through Half-Blood Prince is to get people excited about maybe even going back and listening, or doing both episodes. I mean, they’re all transcribed, too, so you can read them instead. We talk about some good stuff.

Laura: Yeah. And you can give us feedback about how wrong we were back then, and how wrong we are now, and it’ll be great.


Odds & Ends


Laura: We’re going to move into quickly some odds and ends, just some fast fire items from the chapter that we want to mention. Who put this first one?

Micah: I did. We talked a little bit about this earlier with Crabbe and Goyle, but Harry, Ron, and Hermione bump into one of them. I’m not sure which one of them it is; maybe we find out a little bit later on. But we keep having these run-ins with these young Slytherin girls who are showing up at very opportunistic times, so definitely something for us to keep an eye on. And then also, Hermione is starting to pick up on Harry’s feelings for Ginny.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Very perceptive, that one. I want to call out… we didn’t really get to talk about this in the chapter, but it happens in both memories. Both Hepzibah and Dumbledore briefly see glints of red in Tom’s eyes.

Andrew: Bum-bum-bum.

Micah: And then finally, Dumbledore is getting his intel from the Hog’s Head. This isn’t the first time we’ve heard of him getting information from there, so I think it’s just important, again, for us to keep an eye on this. How is he getting that information? Who’s the barman?

Eric: How many times does he straight up mention, too? He’s like, “Oh, I’m friends with the local barman.” He keeps mentioning it.

Andrew: It almost sounds like a joke, so I think that’s why people don’t really press it.

Micah: But it’s worth noting that it is unsettling to Voldemort in the moment that Dumbledore is aware that his buddies are hanging out down at Hogsmeade.

Eric: It’s an all-time great power move from Dumbledore, I think.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: Well, now we’re going to get into our MVP of the Week/our Lynx Line. Moving forward, these benefits are going to be combined so that y’all can see how much more creative and funny your answers are than ours.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: We’re putting ourselves on the spot here on the show, but we’re going to feature all of your answers after we get through ours. So this week’s question is: In an alternate universe where Dumbledore decided to give Tom a second chance, what Hogwarts position should he have offered Tom instead of Defense Against the Dark Arts professor? With a caveat that we’re looking for wrong answers only.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m thinking house-elf manager.

Eric: Okay, yep.

Laura: Yeah, he’s definitely shown qualifications for that this chapter.

Eric: Yeah, he’s good at doing what he wants with them. I think that Tom can be Hogwarts’s first bathroom security guard, making sure nobody dies in the bathrooms at Hogwarts. He’s very qualified at this, making sure nobody goes into the girls’ bathroom who shouldn’t be there. I think it has the potential to be the most important job at Hogwarts. They should hire him for that.

Micah: I think he should be Hogwarts’s chief chef, but it’s too bad that he can’t smell the food.

Eric: Ohh.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: He got no nose.

Laura: I think he should be the Hogwarts career counselor. If you’ve got a dream, get at it. May not work exactly the way you want it to, but if you have the determination, you too can be successful.

Andrew: Tom thinks differently. He worked at Borgin and Burkes. He didn’t get a job at Hogwarts or any other cool job, like for the Ministry.


Lynx Line


Andrew: And then over on Patreon, Marta said,

“As an expert Legilimens, he would be hired as the counsellor that Hogwarts so desperately needs. Students wouldn’t even need to talk; he would just know.”

Eric: Oh my gosh, I agree. Carlee says,

“Muggle Liaison. You know, the one who goes and talks to non-wizarding families when their child has been accepted at Hogwarts!”

I agree. Tom loves Muggles.

Micah: Rachelpuff says, “Peeves patrol.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, that’d probably work.

Micah: That would drive him insane.

Eric: Someone’s got to reign him in.

Laura: Cassandra says,

“In Mean Girls, nasty Regina becomes a better person through playing sports. Make Voldy a junior coach to exorcise his evil through exercise!”

Andrew: [laughs] Shannon said,

“Kitchen intern. He can learn some respect for all the hard work the house-elves put in, and maybe he’ll learn to not be so evil.”

Eric: He’ll also learn to make a mean risotto.

Andrew: Meet them on their level.

Eric: Yeah. Ben… I’m a little confused by this, but I think the less said about it, the better. Ben’s suggestion for Tom’s role is, “The Squidkeeper.”

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: Do with that what you will.

Laura: I bet there’s a fanfiction for that.

Micah: Oh, boy. And Jared brings us home: “Muggle Studies, because Tom Riddle loves Muggles with all his heart.”

Andrew: Thanks, everybody who contributed to that question. There are more answers over on our Patreon, if anybody wants to check them out. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can send an email or a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out to us via Spotify or YouTube, or slide into our DMS. Next week, we’ll take a brief break from Chapter by Chapter to check in on the Harry Potter TV show, the latest rumors and news, so stay tuned for that. We are now doing one TV show-focused episode a month as we approach the TV show, which is probably a year-ish away, and maybe on Paramount, maybe on HBO, Netflix… who knows? Who knows where it’ll be? Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and much more.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 19, Luna Lovegood diagnoses Zacharias Smith with “Loser’s Lurgy.” Which 1950s BBC Radio program first coined the term, meaning a nonfatal unspecified illness such as a cold or flu? They called it the “Dreaded Lurgy.” The answer is The Goon Show. Very, very beloved BBC Radio program. 42% of the people that answered said they did not look it up, so congrats to all those smarties. And those people with the correct answer include You’re a wizard, Frodo – Dumbledore; Eden the Muggle established 2012; Eden’s friend Elizabeth; Eden’s friend Lilian; Eden’s friend Katlyn; Eden’s friend Sofia… they’re all here. The gang’s all here. Oh, boy.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … I’m not Jimmy Jim Jimmy Jim Jim Jim Jim He’s Jimmy Jim Jimmy Jim Jim Jim Jim… I assume that’s from The Goon Show. Finty; Cheeseshark; Ashley B.; The New Count Ravioli; Unfortunate Sufferer of Dust Al-lurgy; Dumbledore’s Team; Strayan Wizard; QuidWitch; and Escargot Club Huhuhuh. Fun names this time. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 20 of Half-Blood Prince, we learned why Hogwarts cannot have a DADA teacher for more than a year. In United States history, which two American presidents served less than one year in office?

Andrew: Oooh.

Eric: Yeah, I know. I’ll give you a hint: One of them happened in 1841.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Eric: So sometime… yeah.

Andrew: That really helped me. Thank you.

Micah: Hogwarts Legacy.

Andrew: As a college dropout, that was really helpful.

Eric: Well, some people don’t know the numbers or the terms of the years. You can work it out with the four-year term and you divide and subtract… anyway.

Micah: Hogwarts Legacy has the answer.

Andrew: Oh, perfect.

Eric: That’s true! Oh my gosh. Yeah, there’s probably a portrait of that guy.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Anyway, submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, which has all that other cool stuff that Andrew said a moment ago.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: See y’all next week. Bye!

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Andrew: [singing] “Do the Hokey Pokey, and you da-na-na-na-na, that’s why Tom Riddle killed you.”

Transcript #743

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #743, Peeves’ Fight Club (Half-Blood Prince Chapter 19, ‘Elf Tails’)


Cold Open


Micah: Snape needs to keep Draco in check here, too, because he’s not doing enough.

Eric: But he took an Unbreakable Vow saying he’s going to help Draco on his mission and not impede Draco.

Micah: Well, help him, then!

[Andrew and Stef laugh]


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: And I’m Micah.

Andrew: Laura is not here this week, but we are your Harry Potter friends talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show. Be sure to follow us in your podcast app so you never miss an episode. Even though Laura is not here this week, we are lucky to have one of our Slug Club supporters on, Stef! Welcome to the show.

Stef: Hey, thanks for having me. It’s such an honor to be here.

Andrew: It’s a pleasure to have you on, and thank you so much for your longtime support. And this week, brace for Bludger, because we’re discussing Chapter 19 of Half-Blood Prince, “Elf Tales.” But before we get into the episode, Stef, can we please get your fandom ID?

Stef: You may. So my favorite book is Prisoner of Azkaban. My favorite movie is, again, Prisoner of Azkaban. Sorry, Eric.

Eric: I’m really confused right now.

Micah: I don’t want to interrupt, Stef. I’ll wait till the end.

Stef: No, go ahead.

Micah: I want to know if Prisoner of Azkaban has grown on you with age, Eric.

Eric: Oh, me? No.

Micah: As you watch it… oh, okay. It has for me; that’s why I ask that question.

Eric: I am curious… it has a little, and I said no very fast in jest. What I’m curious about, Stef… there’s a lot of ways to judge Movie 3 other than its faithfulness to the books, which is its biggest knock for me. So I’m assuming that you love the third book for how awesome the plot is, and you love the third movie for ultimately a different reason, like how visually adult it seems or anything like that. Don’t want to put words in your mouth.

Stef: No, yeah, I like it, I would say, for the reasons that maybe you don’t like it, because it is the one that has a creative stamp and is very weird and spooky and kind of stands on its own as its own little film.

Eric: It is art. It is art. I do see that now.

Andrew: Thank you, Alfonso.

[Stef laughs]

Andrew: So yeah, what’s the rest of your fandom ID?

Stef: And my Patronus is a lynx. Lynx sisters with Kingsley. My favorite Quidditch Gryffindor player is Ginny.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Any particular reason?

Micah: [laughs] Here we go.

Stef: Oh my gosh, she’s a utility player. Micah knows what that means. She can pop into Seeker and then Chaser; she’s kind of your go-to girl. I loved when she smashed into Zacharias Smith in this book. And she just always calls it how it is, and I don’t know. She grew up teaching herself and playing with Fred and George.

Eric: I appreciate that you said that, Stef, because I have really been loving Ginny as of late as Harry is slowly falling, or realizing he’s fallen for her. Really makes me want to dig up the old fanfiction that I started but never finished on her. So watch this space, everyone, because I’m really into Ginny right now too.

Stef: There’s two great Ginny moments in this chapter.

Andrew: Well, be sure to flag those for us. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, if you love MuggleCast as much as Ron loves avoiding Lavender Brown, we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout, and lots more, including the opportunity to cohost MuggleCast like Stef is today. We can’t do this without listener support, so thank you so much in advance. There are other great ways to support us, to help us run this podcast. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and lots more.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. Half-Blood Prince Chapter 19, “Elf Tales.”

Eric: This chapter was last discussed on 408, which was MuggleCast on March 11, 2019. The episode was titled “Ron Is Relevant?” And I don’t want to disappoint anybody, but this week’s Pensieve clip does contain spoilers for a 74-year-old children’s book by E.B. White.

[Andrew laughs]

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 408.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Micah: Oh, Aragog, too, gets a mention.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: That’s where Hagrid was out.

Eric: He was reading to him! He says, “I was reading him stories; his health ain’t well.” We will ask our patrons what Hagrid was reading Aragog.

Andrew: “Spiders: A History.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Fantastic Beasts, of course.

Laura: Charlotte’s Web.

Eric: Oh, Charlotte’s Web!

Andrew: I loved that book.

Eric: But wait, the spider dies.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: If you have a spider best friend that’s near death, you’re going to read him a…?

Andrew: Hagrid was preparing him.

Laura: [laughs] But the ending is positive because Charlotte’s hundreds of thousands of children live on after her.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, wait, then that’s super relevant.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: Wow, spoilers.

[Stef laughs]

Eric: Sorry, guys.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Getting to the chapter, it is called “Elf Tales,” and Dobby and Kreacher are a big part of this chapter. Harry is out of options in cracking the mystery behind what Draco has been up to around the castle, so he decides to turn to Kreacher and Dobby, and they have been tasked with tailing Draco. Now, when Harry summons Kreacher/Dobby, Kreacher and Dobby were apparently fighting, and to his face once he arrives, Kreacher insults Harry multiple times. Now, I wanted to call that out because in Goblet of Fire, Dobby states that house-elves are forbidden to speak their mind about their master without punishing themselves. Dobby says, “‘Tis part of the house-elf’s enslavement, sir. We keep their secrets and our silence, sir. We upholds the family’s honor, and we never speaks ill of them.” So before we get to what Harry asks Kreacher and Dobby to do, I wanted to talk about how Kreacher is conducting himself here. Is Kreacher really punishing himself every time he insults Harry? Because he seems to do it a lot. And is it worth it?

Eric: [laughs] He loves it.

Micah: It’s just second nature at this point. I feel like where we’re at right now in the story with Kreacher, he doesn’t care all that much. And we really don’t see Kreacher start to punish himself, or at least consider it, until Deathly Hallows, and that’s more or less when he starts to show some level of loyalty towards Harry, where he starts to feel conflicted on some level, and that’s, of course, as the locket storyline plays itself out and Regulus comes back into the picture, even though he’s no longer with us. Right now I just have a hard time seeing Kreacher punishing himself for saying anything against Harry. I don’t think he cares.

Andrew: But he has to. It’s in their DNA.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: You don’t think so?

Micah: I think maybe when he’s in the kitchens, he just goes by and puts his hand on the stove really quickly and then takes it away and considers that enough.

Andrew: [laughs] “Ooh, I was such a bad boy.”

Eric: “I did five little punishments before breakfast for all the times I’m going to insult Harry later to his face.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I feel like with Kreacher, it’s almost as if he’s just broken, because he has served more than one master. He passed into servitude to Harry in an unusual way, right? So the beginning of the book, Dumbledore shows up at Privet Drive and is like, “We don’t really know if Kreacher is really yours, but Sirius Black willed him to you, so we’re going to test something out.” And there are so many opportunities along the way where Kreacher might… if he chooses to still view his master as being… was it Elladora Black? Or Sirius’s mom, whatever her name was. Then anyone, even Regulus or anybody that came after her, could be insulted by rule of…

Micah: Walburga.

Eric: Walburga Black. I knew Elladora was too nice a name.

Andrew: The owner of Wahlburgers, in Vegas and many other places.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: It’s actually a big… you know, there’s one in Chicago now. They’re opening downtown on the Mag Mile.

Andrew: Oh, wow. Way to go, Mrs. Black.

Eric: $18 per burger, which is actually cheaper than McDonald’s right now.

[Andrew and Stef laugh]

Eric: So anyway, I feel like it’s a matter of perspective, somehow, with Kreacher, where because he’s still so loyal to Walburga Black and because she would have hated half-bloods and everything that Harry stands for, he does have to obey Harry’s command, but every other rule in the house-elf book doesn’t seem to apply.

Micah: It’s hundreds of years of conditioning for him as well; I think that’s a big part of this. And there is something to the brokenness that you’re talking about, Eric. I think he could also very much be numb to the pain, especially after having consumed the drink of despair in the cave; we know that he was never the same after that. And so I just think he’s very internally conflicted at this point, and it’s really sad, honestly, to watch.

Andrew: It is. I’m thinking he’s broken, too. He’s just broken himself down. I mean, he’s 600 years old. Dobby, by comparison, is way, way younger. We don’t have an exact age, but could be around 40 or 50 years old, from what I was looking at. So the pain would hurt more to a younger house-elf, I think, and so they’re more resistant to not following orders.

Eric: Kreacher’s already got calluses on all of his hands, so he puts his hand in the oven and doesn’t feel anything.

Andrew: Yeah, maybe there’s something to that.

Eric: Maybe. And I’m not saying broken is any kind of insult; I’m like, literally he’s been through so much. Exactly what we’re talking about here, is he’s been through so much, and so yeah, he’s able to fudge the rules, whereas Dobby is still so fresh and young and spring chicken-y that he would… well, I mean, Dobby was able to do tremendous subversion of the house-elf magical contract by showing up at Privet Drive to begin with in Book 2 and all this other stuff, but the punishments still have to happen. But Kreacher, I don’t think he’s going and doing anything to himself after insulting Harry to his face.

Stef: I like Micah’s point, too, about Kreacher kind of absorbing each of the Black family members’ prejudices. And I wonder if that’s a thing with house-elves, if they have to anticipate the needs of their magical family, are they absorbing the way they communicate, the things that they might request of them, almost like Devil Wears Prada, or if you have a pretty bad boss and you need to absorb their expectations. [laughs]

Eric: Take on their toxic traits.

Andrew: Yeah, just like being a member of any family, I think you take on the traits of who you surround yourself with. I’ve heard it said you are a combination of the three people you hang out with most.

Eric: Oh!

Andrew: Don’t quote me on the exact number, but that’s what is said. So maybe that’s what’s happening with Kreacher too. And it stands to reason that if you’re going to be so loyal to a family, you do want to inherit their traits and how they conduct themselves to be the best servant you can be.

Eric: Plus, hatred is taught, is another common saying, and it’s like if you grew up serving this family day in, day out, you hear them spew their prejudices, then you’re going to start to take it in. It’s really as part of serving them, almost, as was said.

Stef: I mean, this is what’s so interesting about rereading the books as adults. I feel like this is probably not a conversation we would have had when we were 16 years old.

Andrew: Totally.

Stef: So yeah, I think this book especially, I find I enjoy rereading it as an adult because of themes like this.

Eric: And Dobby is so pure in comparison, because Dobby grew up at the Malfoys; that couldn’t have been much better than growing up at the Blacks, and yet Dobby is so pure, and “Harry Potter is everything!” And we don’t see Dobby calling people the M word, or like, “Oh, that Mudblood Hermione Granger sure is smart.”

Micah: For Kreacher, I think he’s just gotten to the point in his career where he doesn’t care anymore. [laughs] You just get to that point where…

Andrew: Senior-itis.

Micah: But I will say, it is very impressive that Kreacher has so many of his teeth at 600 years old. That’s some serious dental hygiene.

[Andrew and Stef laugh]

Eric: Well, he’s about to lose half of them.

Micah: I know some of them are on the floor, thanks to Dobby.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, thanks, Dobby. I love how Kreacher is just like, “I’m going to break all the rules about being a house-elf,” and Dobby is like, “Oh, yeah? Well, I’m going to break you!” and punches him right in the face.

Micah: It’s a little bit of like the devil and the angel, right? On your shoulder. One shoulder and the other.

Eric: Oh, yeah, little bit.

Andrew: Well, speaking of the fight, they are fighting. And Peeves is actually there too…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … and he’s actually encouraging the fight…

Micah: He is.

Andrew: … and he seems to have been watching the fight before Harry summoned Kreacher. Dobby does imply that the fight started when Kreacher insulted Harry pre-summons. Is that just something Peeves likes to do, Micah? Watch fights?

Micah: I think that maybe he runs an underground house-elf fight club that we’re unaware of, and this was happening in the kitchens when Harry summoned Kreacher, and the two were tussling with each other. But it is interesting that Peeves shows up.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And it’s a really interesting bit of magic, almost. We’re told constantly that house-elf magic works differently, but poltergeist magic is something I’d never had to consider before. Because not only did Kreacher and Dobby Apparate somewhere, but Peeves, who was where they used to be, was able to track wherever they Apparated to. It’s not like he grabbed hold of them and was therefore Portkeyed with them; he literally had to trace wherever they went so that he could follow and also Apparate of his own will? I don’t understand Peeves transporting.

Andrew: Does Peeves know that Kreacher is Harry’s elf? So maybe he deduced, “Well, Harry is in the hospital wing.” So Harry asks Kreacher – and by extension, Dobby – to track Draco, because he’s out of options for figuring out what Draco is up to. Ethically, what do we make of this? Harry is asking his slave to stalk someone, and also just the servant/master dynamic aside, it’s just wrong to follow somebody around all day, no matter who you’re enlisting, right?

Eric: Yeah… yes. I mean, yes. It’s unambiguously yes.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Stalking is not good.

Andrew: Eric follows somebody on the “Find My” app. [laughs]

Eric: I mean, who among us has not hired a private eye? This is basically what this is, actually. I was looking into this, and what I would try and equate it to is like hiring a private investigator. This is somebody who you… say you want somebody investigated, whether it’s somebody you’re close with, or an ex, and you ask somebody, you pay somebody to stalk them, essentially. But I’ve learned since looking this up during this chapter that there are some key differences. So a private detective that’s hired to follow… let’s say this is your ex. Harry and Draco as exes; I love it. But they can go wherever a person goes if a person is in a public place. They can’t break privacy law in order to follow somebody. So if they’re in front of an open window, that’s one thing, but what Harry is asking Dobby and Kreacher to do is a little extra.

Andrew: Yes, Kreacher is not going to be like, “Oh, Draco went into the common room or his dormitory, so I’m not going to dare enter there. That’s too far.”

Stef: Well, I was thinking that maybe the house-elves are ChatGPT of the ’90s wizarding world, and they’re just tasked with all the things.

Andrew: I could see that.

Eric: Except they can think for themselves, which is a bonus.

Stef: Can they?

Eric: Oh, yeah, maybe. Well, we see Dobby do it when he shows up at Privet Drive. He’s like, “Oh, the events that are planned for this year are objectively bad. I should go warn the one kid who might be able to prevent that from happening.”

Micah: He seems to be the exception, though, not the rule.

Eric: He really is.

Micah: Especially as we’re introduced to Winky in Goblet of Fire, and we have Hokey coming up in maybe even the next chapter with Hepzibah Smith.

Andrew: Yeah. And Stef, you’ve also observed that how Harry does his research very much differs from Dumbledore.

Stef: Yeah, I think… something I’ve been thinking about as I’ve been rereading Half-Blood Prince is how Dumbledore really just does everything on his own. There’s so many moments throughout where it’s like, “Dumbledore is not here; he’s off for weeks on end.” And it just… I find that Harry’s strategy with bringing in the house-elves – and he’s also wanting to involve Hermione and Ron – there’s just so much more of a relational approach to the way he tries to investigate, and to me, that feels like a really interesting contrast to Dumbledore, who’s like, “I’m just going to use my own magic. I’m just going to rely on myself and use my own spells.”

Eric: Well, blessed as Dumbledore is with superior brainpower, he can afford to just be the one going off and doing these things…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: … and us mere mortals like Harry have to rely on the group. But I think that’s such an important point, because it mirrors the quest Dumbledore lays out for Harry in the next book.

Stef: But I think… yeah. Well, I was going to say I think that he could have benefited with bringing more people in. I mean, he takes this entire book to locate the one Horcrux, and meanwhile there’s however many other ones waiting, specifically the Hogwarts one, the diadem, and he could have been employing ghosts, or the headmaster portraits, or even… does he have…? He definitely has loyal allies who would be discreet. And I think we find out in the last book that a non-Dumbledore perspective is what was needed in order to find the diadem that’s hidden within Hogwarts. So to me, I think it goes back to… I think it was last discussion, or one of the previous discussions, you guys were talking about how there is strength in numbers and having a variety of perspectives.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Knowing that Neville… I mean, at the end of… midway through the Battle of Hogwarts, Harry is just like, “All right, I’m going to have to start telling people about some things.” And Neville destroys a Horcrux. Ron and Hermione go and do it without Harry there. It takes a village to destroy Voldemort.

Micah: Dumbledore is very guarded, and I wonder if that stems from his past with Grindelwald in terms of working relationships. We know that he worked with Flamel, but how much…? I mean, even going back to the Fantastic Beasts series, he doesn’t fully trust Newt with all of the information that he could potentially provide him. It’s very similar to his relationship with Harry. Now, I understand Harry is a bit younger than Newt is, but let’s just even look back at Order of the Phoenix in terms of how guarded Dumbledore is. He ignores Harry for the better part of an entire school year, right?

Andrew: Maybe it has to do with his upbringing, Dumbledore.

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew: He wasn’t raised somebody to ask for help, and maybe that’s the difference.

Eric and Micah: Could be.

Andrew: I mean, then again, Harry was an orphan, so he didn’t get the greatest upbringing either.

Eric: Yeah. Well, it’s interesting that Dumbledore should talk about how Voldemort doesn’t have friends-friends, right? Like, “I use the term ‘friends,’ when really he doesn’t care about anybody.” And then Dumbledore proceeds to be almost as isolationist or antisocial at times.

Andrew: But generally, it is a good lesson from these books that teamwork makes the dream work. Don’t be like Dumbledore; be like Harry. Ask for help. Micah?

Micah: One other thing I just wanted to say before we moved on about Kreacher is that it is kind of sad that it takes this for Harry to even remember that Kreacher exists at Hogwarts and could be of help to him. And he’s actually very lucky that Dobby does come along, because I wouldn’t trust Kreacher to tail Draco. It’s quite fortunate that Dobby just happened to be right there.

Andrew: Yeah. And they were fighting, and they’re still going to team up. That’s great.

Eric: Harry has a checking in with his secondary peeps problem. Remember last book when he didn’t check in with Hedwig until December? This is your owl, dude. Go say hi to her. [laughs]

Micah: Right. We’re, what, in the spring at this point?

Eric: Yeah, this is late.

Micah: So how many months has it been since…?

Eric: Since they last saw each other, Kreacher and Harry? I mean, since…

Micah: Privet Drive.

Eric: Yeah, before… yeah.

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: So it’s just… Harry is bad at following… he’s probably got my brand of ADHD where it can be hard to remember, “Oh, yeah, I should reach out.”

Stef: And that’s the one person Dumbledore is relying on to follow up with the Horcruxes. Classic procrastinator. He needs to spread it out.

Eric: Terminal procrastinator, even, yeah.

Andrew: So I’m not really a fan of Harry asking Kreacher to tail Draco, as much as I don’t like Draco. Are there any other options for Harry here? Maybe something like… how about we AirTag him, at least?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Which I know presents a series of its own ethical issues.

Micah: Would it work, though, in Hogwarts?

Andrew: Well, let’s say an AirTag adjacent type of magic.

Micah: Ah, okay.

Stef: Is it clothing, technically?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, he’s already using it! He’s already using the AirTag adjacent magical thing, and it’s the Marauder’s Map!

Andrew: But it has a limit.

Eric: Well, the limit is he doesn’t at all piece together that Crabbe and Goyle are doing exactly what he heard that Crabbe and Goyle are doing, which is being lookouts. And so he sees where they are on the map, doesn’t see Malfoy at all, and is like, “Oh, well, there’s thousands of dots on here anyway.” But if he had paid more attention to where Crabbe and Goyle are, specifically where they are, he knows that corridor like the back of his hand at this point.

Micah: He could do what he did in Chamber of Secrets and use Polyjuice Potion.

Andrew: Ooh, there’s a thread.

Micah: That could be a solution to allow him to follow Draco. And going off of what you just mentioned, Eric, just to connect some threads, Harry unknowingly bumps into a Polyjuiced Crabbe and Goyle. And we know that Harry and Ron used that in Chamber of Secrets to transform into, guess who?

Eric: Oh, Crabbe and Goyle!

[Andrew and Stef laugh]

Micah: It’s almost like these two books are connected in some way.

Andrew: We are very much proving that. Stef, do you have any suggestions for Harry if he came to you?

Stef: I was thinking he might consult old Newt Scamander, who might have a tracking trick or two up his sleeve.

Andrew and Eric: Oooh.

Stef: I think we saw… was it in the second one? When he’s tracking down Tina in Paris, there’s the swirly charm that illuminates the footprints.

Eric: The time rewind spell.

Stef: Appare Vestigium, I think.

Andrew: Ooh, nice.

Stef: And then the one where he charms the feather, and then it follows to find Tina.

[Andrew laughs]

Stef: I’m not going to pronounce that one… Avenseguim?

Andrew: Yeah, something like that. Yeah, no, those are good ideas. I like that you’re tying in Fantastic Beasts, because we need more reasons to connect these two series and explain the purpose of Fantastic Beasts.

Stef: I also wonder, are they taught those charms? Would Harry know anything like that? Or is that more of a postgrad training?

Andrew: Maybe. I think we’ve also discussed in recent weeks that spells come in and out of fashion, so these two, for example, may have been hot in the 1920s or ’30s, and they fell out of style. But all these spells, in theory, would still work, but yeah, Harry just doesn’t know. I mean… I’m going to say in theory yet again. In theory, there’s an infinite number of spells. People can just make them up and make them work. So yeah, he just wasn’t aware of these spells/the author hadn’t thought of them yet either. And for the plot. I also have a little foreshadow alert. This one’s too on the nose, too on the pointy nose. Dobby says, “If Dobby does it wrong -“ that being tracking Draco “- Dobby will throw himself off the topmost tower!” Wow.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Eric: It was almost Dobby the House-Elf’s Tower of Terror. Sorry… [takes a deep breath] Dobby the House-Elf’s Tower of Terror Ride at Universal Studios Orlando Florida.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that was pretty good. And also, just want to mention that it is adorable how even though Dobby is a free elf, he says that he can obey anyone he wants, and he wishes to obey Harry. Aww.

Stef: It’s almost like Dobby wants to be Harry’s Pillion.

Andrew: [laughs] And what is that? What is that?

Stef: Reference to the new dom-com that’s out starring Harry Melling, a.k.a. Dudley Dursley.

Eric: Sorry, dom-com?

Andrew: And by dom-com, Stef means dominant, and we should probably just leave it there. [laughs]

Eric: This is a genre of film? Dom-com?

Stef: It is now, starring Dudley Dursley and Eric Northman, bringing the fantasies together.

Eric: Well, Harry Melling was a really creepy guy, a cool villain, in a movie I saw recently. I can’t remember what it was. But yeah, he’s really good.

Andrew: All right, well, we are going to talk about Ron getting poisoned and the fear of being replaced, but first, a quick break. We’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Andrew: So over the course of the last chapter, Ron was pretty much double poisoned, the poor guy. He consumes the love potion that Romilda had intended for Harry, and then after he was “cured,” he gets poisoned again by a drink that we’ll come to later find out was intended for Dumbledore. Draco had Imperiused Madam Rosmerta into giving it to Slughorn after betting that Slughorn would then give it to Dumbledore as a gift, and that did end up being the plan – Slughorn said as much – but he needed it for Ron to allegedly cure him.

Eric: What a mess. I feel like it’s just… it’s really interesting what Hermione says, that because this plan was… because Ron wasn’t the intended victim, and that much they’ve deduced already, that it actually makes the person doing this more dangerous, because they don’t care who they hurt on the way to their intended target. So they guess that Dumbledore was probably the target, but they don’t know, but they’re pretty sure. And Hermione has a point.

Stef: Yeah, and Draco has been pretty sloppy. I mean, he’s, as she said, not anticipating that Slughorn might keep the mead. He assumed Katie could smuggle the necklace back into the castle, past Hogwarts’s protections. So I don’t know. I wanted to pose the question to all of you: Are we reading this as incompetence or as self-sabotage?

Eric: Ah, like he doesn’t want it enough? Because doesn’t Dumbledore even say, “I question whether your heart was in it”?

Stef: At the end, yeah.

Eric: And Draco is like, “Whaaat?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, I think partly his heart isn’t in it because he’s a child. But I think it’s both, Stef. I think he’s incompetent, and he’s self-sabotaging because he doesn’t really want to do this. This is a massive task for him, and Draco is kind of rushing, I think, with all these little hacky type of ways to make it happen, rather than just doing it himself.

Eric: He’s trying his best to do a half-ass job. And the thing is, if Slughorn had been murdered, if Slughorn had gotten it, gotten poisoned, had taken the mead to himself, or if Ron had died, that brings such scrutiny to Hogwarts and such a close eye on what everyone is doing that it would almost certainly result in Draco being found out, which would stop his ability to complete his mission, which maybe he wants. So there is some element of “Is Draco self-sabotaging here?” that I could see being pretty reasonable. But in the meantime, our friends are getting hurt, and this sucks.

Stef: And what does this say about how much choice he has? I don’t know. I feel like when I first read this, you’re seeing it through Harry’s perspective, so you’re just immersed in the story. But then as an adult, I find it’s really sad how much pain Draco clearly is throughout the book. And he’s just inheriting generational violence from his family; you’re kind of starting to see that, the role that he’s taken on and these “choices” he’s making. How much choice does he have?

Andrew: He doesn’t.

Eric: Well, they’re causing a lot of pain to others, too.

Micah: I don’t think he fully grasps the severity of what he’s doing in these situations either. I think that the thought is just, “Oh, if I can try and achieve the end goal with the fewest steps possible,” but he doesn’t actually think it all the way through, because it doesn’t just require one or two steps. To me, it’s almost very juvenile, the fact that he thinks, “Oh, if I just Imperius Madam Rosmerta to hand off this necklace or this poisoned mead.” You’re expecting that then all the other steps are going to magically happen for you, much like Dumbledore just expects everything to just happen while he’s not in Deathly Hallows, and that Harry is just going to figure it all out by himself. That’s the kind of approach that Draco is taking. And in fairness to him, he’s only 16 years old, so what would you expect from a 16-year-old? And that’s what Voldemort loves about it. It’s really an impossible task, if you think about it.

Andrew: Dumbledore and Snape are caught feuding, and Hagrid happens to notice this happening. Micah, I think you’re none too pleased about how Dumbledore is conducting himself this chapter. [laughs] And every chapter.

Micah: There’s just this overbearing feeling of negligence, for me, anyway. And the reason why I say that has nothing to even do really with the conversation with Snape, although that does kind of shine a light on it, because Dumbledore has a responsibility to the school and the students in it, and he knows that somebody is actively trying to murder somebody at the school, and now you’ve had two very close calls in Katie Bell and Ron, and he just doesn’t seem to really care all that much. He’s focused on the end game, and I understand that, but again, there’s that responsibility as headmaster that you need to be protecting the students. And he actually knows more or less who’s responsible, and he’s not stepping in, and that’s why I feel Snape needs to keep Draco in check here, too, because he’s not doing enough.

Andrew: It’s a good point.

Eric: Well, but he took an Unbreakable Vow saying he’s going to help Draco on his mission and not impede Draco.

Micah: Well, help him, then!

[Andrew and Stef laugh]

Andrew: But Draco doesn’t want the help.

Eric: Help him get this over with. Yeah, but I mean, that’s literally it, is if…

Micah: Stop him sending poisoned artifacts into the school.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No, you’re absolutely right that Dumbledore cannot simply allow all of these attempts on his life to hit other people, and cause other people to be put into St. Mungo’s for months and months and months on end, or hospital wing for two nights, as Ron is, and still call himself a good headmaster. You’re absolutely right about that. But yeah, I feel like he can’t also… or Snape can’t also step in, which might be why they’re fighting, because Snape can’t say… Snape tells Draco, “You’re being reckless,” but if he went any further, he would be actively impeding Draco on his mission, which would kill Snape there and then right there.

Andrew: Yeah, between a rock and a hard place. I do like the points that you’re bringing up, Micah, and I’m feeling mad at my boy Dumbledore right now; you’re absolutely right. Because what it’s reminding me of is when you get on the plane, and what does the pilot say to everybody on board? What does the flight attendant say? “Your safety is our number one priority.” That should be Dumbledore’s goal too. That is the role of headmaster, that and educating the students, right? And he’s failing at 50%. He’s got an F. You might be able to argue the education system ain’t too great at the school either. [laughs]

Stef: See, this is why he needs help finding the Horcruxes, because he’s off doing that rather than being present at school, overlooking everything. I mean, it’s like the situation that Harry finds himself in. He’s the captain of his Quidditch team. He wants to go and follow Draco, but instead of doing that, he shows up and he’s there at the game. But where’s Dumbledore? He’s not there.

Andrew: Where’s Dumbledore? Yeah, the question Micah and Harry are always wondering. Eric, I’m curious what you think of Hagrid being able to sneak up on Dumbledore and Snape undetected in the forest. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it must be a mark of how… I’m trying to say this without being offensive. It must be a mark of how deeply upset Snape and Dumbledore are with each other that neither of them notice Hagrid’s dolphin-sized feet traipsing through the woods right next to them…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … close enough to be within earshot. So I’m just going to go out and say that the… animity? Animosity between…

Andrew: Anonymity?

Eric: All of those, probably.

Andrew: Ano-ano-ano-ne-ne-ne-nimity, to quote Finding Nemo.

Eric: Between the two of them that drowns out… because they’re finally duking it out. This is the big deal that Hagrid is so shocked about, because Snape has finally sort of stood up for himself and said, “What you ask… you are taking for granted what I’m doing.” And Dumbledore kind of gives a real kindergarten answer of, “Well, you promised. Just keep your promises,” and walks away. And it’s like, “Hello?” We now know what they’re talking about, of course. And I think this a great moment to feel bad for Snape.

Andrew: What do you think, Stef?

Stef: I mean, I was trying to remember what it was like first reading this as a teen, and if I noticed this as a sign of Dumbledore’s vulnerability. I think it’s one of the first times we see the illusion around him crack. I mean, we see the blackened hand, but now we’re hearing that this relationship that kind of always has this protective wall around, which is Snape and Dumbledore’s trust and connection… there’s so many times where Harry, the reader, other characters try to crack in there of, “But do we trust Snape? Do we trust Snape?” And there’s just this very solid foundation between those two, and so now you’re seeing, “Wait, is that foundation that solid?” And also, just like Eric said, with the “You agreed,” it’s showing that maybe Dumbledore doesn’t have it all figured out, and that just makes me think of when we’re kids, and we have an adult figure that’s a teacher or a parent and they seem omniscient to us, and then we start seeing things and we’re like, “Oh, they’re a person too. They also have vulnerability.”

Eric: Yeah, and what I like to think about when it comes to Snape and his motivations is this all… I think the falling out between he and Dumbledore started when Dumbledore said, “You’re going to have to kill me.” Snape doesn’t want to do that. Snape actually has, I think, a lot of respect for exactly one person, and it’s the person in front of him. And so I think… we’ve never seen them fight; we’ve never heard them arguing. Dumbledore has always been the one like, “I trust Snape completely. ‘Professor Snape,’ Harry.” But now they’re fighting, and it’s because Dumbledore has actually asked too much of Snape, and Snape is mad at him because he loves him. He’s mad at this man because he’s going to end up having to do this horrible thing.

Andrew: So in this fight that Hagrid overhears, whose side…? Well, I guess just generally, whose side are we on in this debate? Micah, do you want to go first?

Micah: I would probably lean in Snape’s direction. I don’t really like either of them, to be honest with you.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I would side with Hagrid.

Andrew: Team Switzerland? Side with Hagrid? Okay.

Micah: I would be, yeah, overhearing the conversation, as opposed to picking one of them. But yeah, it’s for all the reasons discussed. It’s just very tough, and Snape is being put in an impossible position. It is really not fair to him. So if we’re asking from that context, then I would definitely be Team Snape.

Eric: Keeping in mind that a few chapters ago, Dumbledore almost told Harry everything, almost told him about Snape’s love for Lily. There’s that moment where Harry sees him consider something, and we assume it to be that. Dumbledore almost betrayed Snape’s confidence, his one confidence. Where am I going with this? I think that knowing that he chose not to and protect this, but that Dumbledore, in the same chapter, or within days, is holding it over Snape’s head that Snape said in a moment of deep self-loathing that he would spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore, 16 years ago at this point, that’s what Dumbledore is harkening back to in this argument, of like, “Well, you said you’d do this; you’ve got to keep your word,” and then walking out without actually handling any of the emotional stuff that Snape is going through right now, feels insufficient and makes me Team Snape.

Andrew: Okay. How about you, Stef?

Stef: I feel like at the time I probably was team Dumbledore, but I hadn’t yet been devastated by “The Prince’s Tale.” So knowing what I know now, I feel empathy for Snape like the rest of you.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree as well. Y’all made good points, so I won’t repeat them. I did want to mention, concerning Hagrid successfully sneaking up on Snape and Dumbledore, it’s funny that he gets away with this in this chapter, when earlier in the chapter Madam Pomfrey thinks there’s more than six people visiting Ron in the hospital wing, but there wasn’t; she was just “counting Hagrid as several people due to his vastness.” That’s a quote.

[Andrew and Stef laugh]

Andrew: So this guy, who gets confused for multiple people, successfully sneaks up on two very smart wizards in a crunchy forest. Well done, Hagrid, I guess.

Eric: Yeah, very crunchy forest. That forest floor always be crunching.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And people think I’m being prejudiced about the dolphin feet; it literally… in this chapter, page 402. Hagrid, “his hair rain-flecked, his bearskin coat flapping behind him, a crossbow in his hand, leaving a trail of muddy dolphin-sized footprints all over the floor.”

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: Sorry, it’s in this chapter.

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: Unbelievable.


Lynx Line


Andrew: So looking at what happened to Ron, he was sidelined from Quidditch because he was poisoned and he’s recovering. He worries in this chapter that Cormac temporarily filling in for him will turn into being permanently replaced; you see it in how he’s asking Harry how Cormac did during practice. That said, Harry does try to put Ron’s mind at ease. He reminds Ron that Cormac is annoying as hell, and by the end of the chapter, Harry is ready to kill Cormac when he accidentally sends a Bludger at Harry. But I thought this was another good one of these moments that reflects life, where you might go through experiences where you’re afraid you’re going to be replaced, maybe because you missed out on something, you had to call out sick, whatever. So for this week’s Lynx Line – and this is also a Make the Real Life Connection – we asked our patrons, have we ever worried about being replaced when we missed something? And what was that experience like for you?

Eric: Carlee says,

“When I went on maternity leave with my oldest child, my long-term substitute was great. So great, in fact, that once I came back, a few kids felt it important to say (out loud, during class) that they liked her better than me and they wanted her to come back! Probably relevant that these particular children just happened to say such things after I corrected their behavior. Regardless, my feelings were hurt and I hated not being the ‘favorite’ anymore!”

Andrew: Aww, that’s sad.

Eric: That’s real sad.

Micah: Hope you failed them.

Andrew: [laughs] Failed them? Well, you have new students come in in future years, right? So turn a new leaf.

Micah: Danielle said,

“I took a step back from singing at church when I was pregnant with twins. I was singing about twice a month at that time, but I could hardly breathe with the decreased lung capacity. Those twins are now 6.5 years old, and I’m still not back to singing. They replaced me with someone else while I had my kids. I tried to get back to it when they were 2 months old, and have been struggling ever since. It’s been heartbreaking.”

Andrew: I’m sorry to hear that, but hopefully…

Micah: We support you. Get out there and sing.

Eric: Get out there.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Stef: There’s been a whole little conversation happening on Patreon. I think Carlee got in on the conversation with Danielle and encouraged…

Andrew: Yeah, Carlee said that she could relate, right? Or along those lines, yeah. Mason said,

“There is a very real example of when I did miss something and was replaced. Basically, my crush in 9th grade asked me if I wanted to be his partner on this debate team, but the debate team conflicted with this play I was doing so I said no… then he stopped liking me and started liking my friend! I’m almost positive that he liked me, but after, he was distant. :/ The fear is real!”

Eric: Oh!

Andrew: Noooo! I’m sorry, Mason.

Eric: I’m waiting for the happy ending one.

Andrew: I hope you found someone else. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. This comes from Zachary:

“While I was in high school, our marching band was the best in our city and always came down to literal fractions of a point when it came to state and regional competitions. Our band was so big that we had to have alternates. Everyone auditioned for their spot throughout the entire season, and if you didn’t have the show music memorized by the dates posted, you were swapped out with someone who did. This added some stress, but allowed an equal opportunity for those who really wanted to be there.”

So this seems like a high stakes “I am always living in fear of being replaced, because I am always being tested on this matter.” That’s terrifying.

Andrew: Yeah. Thanks to everybody who submitted an answer to that question.


Make the Personal Connection


Andrew: But I did also want to pose this question to the panel: Have y’all ever been in this type of situation where maybe you had to miss something, and then you grew fearful that you would be replaced? For me, Carlee brought up the teacher example. As an uncle to two – actually, three – adorable nephews now, I don’t see them often, so I’m kind of worried that they’re going to forget about me. And then just socially, I sometimes do get some FOMO, so I’m like, “Don’t have too much fun without me, then you’ll not invite me anymore.”

Eric: Yeah, for me, it happens pretty much every MuggleCast I miss. If I were missing this episode and not Laura, I’d be really worried that y’all would bring Stef on to just replace me, because she’s awesome.

[Andrew laughs]

Stef: I am Hufflepuff.

Micah: Wow.

Eric: We all know we just need one Hufflepuff to fill the void, and that could be anybody. So I’m kind of eyeballing, side-eyeing, worried here. So yeah, I have felt it too. But yeah, on a serious note, I think it’s definitely something that can happen from… it’s not a comfortable feeling. I think what you have to do, and what Ron has to do, is make comfort within yourself for the possibility that something may happen that feels averse to you, but you also have to know that both other opportunities may open up instead, or that because something goes the way you’re fearing it does doesn’t mean it happened for the reasons that you think it is happening. You know what I’m saying?

Micah: Yeah. I mean, look at how things actually play themselves out, and it proves that Harry made the right choice in selecting Ron.

Andrew: Bingo.

Micah: And so yeah, I mean, the only example that comes to mind for me that’s more recent is when I went on sabbatical from work. You think, “Oh, well, I’m gone for a month. Who knows what can happen?”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Will they realize they don’t need you? And it turns out they didn’t, because they do need you.

Micah: Well, I appreciate you saying that.

Eric: Well, and it’s like the chorus; having kids and no longer being able to sing in chorus. I bet there’s colleagues of yours that still sing in church choir, and if you’ve been replaced, whatever, they probably still say, “What happened to the lady that used to do this? I really liked her. I liked her more.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: And they’re saying it, but you don’t hear it because you’re not doing that anymore.

Micah: You’re not there.

Andrew: Yeah, good point.

Micah: And just one thing, too, with Cormac that I think is important is it shows a different side of Gryffindor. We’ve really always kind of been gung ho about Gryffindor, or at least, I think when you’re reading the series for the first time and you’re a young kid, Gryffindor is always the House that everybody seems to be drawn to, for the most part, at least in terms of having the good guys or the good gals. And Cormac is a complete asshole, and he’s not good at Quidditch either.

Andrew: No.

Micah: He’s basically just a meathead in the end.

Eric: He’s got main character energy. The problem is he’s not the main character.

Micah: Yeah, there you go.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Stef, do you have anything to add here?

Stef: Well, I just think what Eric shared was really beautiful, and that’s something I was thinking about, especially with Ron, is that we really see him always looking outside of himself – he’s wanting to be shown that he’s desirable – instead of checking in with himself, of like, “Well, who do I desire? What do I desire?” He’s just… I think it’s a great lesson, especially for the young listeners. It’s so often when we see that we’re missing something, or that we’re not good enough for something, it might be a little nudge to check in with yourself and recognize you are great for that. This is a moment to really love up on and celebrate yourself, and not measure your self-worth based off of the situation.

Andrew: Comparison is the thief of joy.

Stef: Yes, it is. I think for me, there aren’t a lot of things I have fear of missing out on. I’d say I suffer from JOMO, which is the joy of missing out.

[Eric and Stef laugh]

Andrew: Oh!

Stef: I mean, similar to what Eric shared, too, it’s like sometimes missing one thing opens up the opportunity for taking on something else, and you never know what you discover.

Eric: Oh, so you’re looking at your appointment book or your calendar and going, “What if I don’t show up at this? What new opportunities will show up?”

Andrew: And I saw a TikTok about that recently; I think they even described it as the joy of missing out.

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: The joy of just staying home on a Friday, watching TV, and not feeling FOMO when the rest of your friends are out, like, “I don’t need to be out. I can say no and just relax at home and it’s okay.”

Eric: There’s a saying that I’ve known for a few years; it’s like, “At a certain point in your 30s, the only thing better than making plans is canceling plans.”

[Stef laughs]

Andrew: Oh, especially when somebody else cancels on you? I feel so relieved every time.

Eric: Yes, and you’re like, “Ah, I’m free!”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Yes. “Oh, thank God, I can stay at home.”

Eric: And it’s real. But JOMO; I’ve got to look up JOMO. That’s fantastic.

Andrew: I need to learn that.

Stef: Yeah, we’ll just be snacking on our late night snacks, Eric, on the bean bags in Hufflepuff.

Eric: Look, I can go to my fridge. I’ve got string cheese.

Micah: Oooh.

Eric: I don’t need to be out with beer and nachos.

Stef: Laura is having JOMO right now.

Eric: She’s really happy that she’s sick and not here right now.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I felt like I got bullied into going to an escape room tomorrow night. It starts at 8:20 p.m.; I don’t want to start anything at 8:20 p.m., but I just… I had FOMO. I didn’t want to say no.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I should have had JOMO.

Micah: They’re fun, though.

Eric: Honestly, it sounds amazing.

Micah: You know what, Andrew? Look up online how to solve it; you’ll be out in ten minutes.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. “I’ve got places to be, everybody.”

Andrew: I’ll watch a YouTube video, yeah.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: Couple of odds and ends now. Stef, you noticed a couple things you wanted to share, right?

Stef: Yeah, one of the things is there’s a lot of secrecy in this chapter; it feels like the movie Conclave or something. There’s a lot of whispers in dark corners. Hagrid is overhearing the argument, Harry is having the house-elves spy for him, Draco is cooking up a plan in the shadows… just a lot of little hidden things. The other thing, little odd and end, is Luna announcing Quidditch is everything. I tried to find my Luna glasses for this, but I don’t know where they are.

Andrew: Aww.

Stef: But I do have them. And then there’s a really great Molly quote that just speaks for itself. “Well, all I can say is that it was a lucky day for the Weasleys when Ron decided to sit in your compartment on the Hogwarts Express, Harry.”

Andrew: Aww. That was really sweet, and it kind of ties into what you were saying earlier, Stef; if you say no to something, it might open up the opportunity for something else. You never know what’s going to happen. You never know what a chance encounter might lead to.

Micah: Was it lucky, though? I mean, Ginny is kind of Harry’s fault. Arthur is definitely Harry’s fault.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Pros and cons, Micah.

Micah: Ron is kind of Harry’s fault too because…

Andrew: The pros outweigh the cons.

Eric: You mean them coming across… coming into injury? I think it’s all Voldemort’s fault, and it’s wrong to blame Harry. Hilarious.

Micah: Well, I mean, yes, but they’re all the same person at the end of the day, aren’t they?

[Stef laughs]

Eric: Well, there’s that.

Andrew: Wow. That was really rude, Micah.

Micah: But just a few more threads to connect to Chamber of Secrets: Harry has a serious Quidditch injury in both Chamber of Secrets and Half-Blood Prince – both due to a Bludger, by the way – and who shows up both times in the hospital wing but Dobby?

Andrew: Unbelievable.

Micah: And I did also wanted to say very quickly that the conversation that Hagrid and Harry have as they’re leaving the hospital wing – and I think Hermione is there too – is very Chamber of Secrets heavy. There’s a lot of references to what happened in Book 2. I think even the school governors get mentioned again, and there’s talk of closing the school down.

Andrew: Yeah, Hagrid had said, “It’s always bin a bit of a risk sendin’ a kid ter Hogwarts, hasn’ it? Yer expect accidents, don’ yeh, with hundreds of underage wizards all locked up together.” [laughs]

Stef: And Dumbledore as headmaster.

Micah: But Stef, you had one too, right?

Stef: Yeah, just Harry obsessing over Draco and no one taking him seriously.

Andrew: Nice, nice.


Superlative of the Week


Andrew: All right, time for MVP of the Week. So in this chapter, Draco taunts Harry by calling him “the Chosen Captain” and “the Boy Who Scored” in the context of the upcoming…

Eric: That second one is real fun, actually.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] So I asked the panel to create your own Quidditch-oriented name for Harry that Draco would call him, and I asked you to say it like Draco would. Think of Tom Felton’s “Pottah!”

Stef: That was really good.

Andrew: Oh, thank you.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: [imitating Malfoy] “Captain Crash a Lot!”

Eric: [imitating Malfoy] “Oh, I bet they’re calling you Dumbledore’s Seeker Through and Through, aren’t they, Potter?”

[Micah and Stef laugh]

Micah: That was good. [imitating Malfoy] “Snitch Bitch.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, yeah, Draco would definitely say it like that.

Eric: That was very Draco, yeah. Gryffindor Draco.

Stef: [imitating Malfoy] “Ate and Left No Krum.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God, that’s glorious.

Andrew: Ahh, short and sweet. If you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, but maybe you find it easier to leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube or DM us on social. Whatever’s most convenient for you, reach out to us that way. And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Chapter 20, “Lord Voldemort’s Request.” Eerie.

Eric: It’s a good one.

Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: In this chapter, a bezoar from the stomach of a goat is used as a cure for a poison. In reality, bezoars can appear in humans as ailments. What popular soft drink brand is used to treat bezoars in humans? I said last week it was the one that you think; the answer is Coca-Cola. And if you’ve ever seen videos of what Coke does to certain things when left in a tub of Coke, that’s a rabbit hole you can go down. You’re welcome. 66% of people with the correct answer said they didn’t look it up, so a lot of people did, in fact, guess. Maybe my hint helped. And this week’s winners included… [laughs] Just get ready, because some of them are long. Administered by Dr. Pepper; Bort Voldemort; Carly; Dobby’s Coca-Cola socks; Dumbledore’s PR Team; Eden the Muggle established 2012… she’s back. Also, she says, “I told all my friends about your podcast, so now you have at least five 14-year-old listeners.”

Andrew: Oh, thank you.

Eric: Elvis Dumbledore; Ginny Beverly; I Drink Too Many of These Per Week; I Play Fluffy’s Harp; King Arthur of the Britains, my quest is to find the Holy Grail, and my favorite color is blue; My little soda pop; No soda for me – I look it up!; Tom Peed-a-little Riddle; Tofu Tom; and Slytherin Squib. And here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 19, Luna Lovegood diagnoses Zacharias Smith with “Loser’s Lurgy.” Which 1950s BBC Radio program first coined the term, meaning a nonfatal unspecified illness such as a cold or flu, and called it the “Dreaded Lurgy”? See if you know your history about “lurgy” as a word. Submit your answer to us on the Quidditch form located on the MuggleCast website, at MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: Stef, thank you so much for joining us today, and we’ll be in touch about you replacing Eric as the Hufflepuff on the panel.

[Stef laughs]

Eric: Augh, because I can’t get… it was my plug at the end. I always botch it.

[Andrew laughs]

Stef: Can’t wait to read all those names.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: No, but seriously, thank you for your support, and thanks for everything that you brought to the panel today. You brought a lot of great wisdom. You have a good radio voice, too, I feel.

Micah: You do.

Stef: I mean, this is my first podcast…

Micah: First of many.

Stef: … so it’s kind of multitasking, looking at the video, and like, “How is my voice?”

Andrew: [laughs] You’re a natural.

Eric: Sibilance.

Stef: I also use my arms a lot, so I’ve been trying not to do that as much. But I’m glad it sounds good.

Andrew: Oh. Well, it keeps the visuals lively, I think, if your hands are moving.

[Andrew and Stef laugh]

Andrew: For the YouTube viewers or Spotify.

Stef: But thank you so much for having me. It’s such an honor to be here. I mean, I think I’ve been listening for maybe eight or so years.

Andrew: Wow, awesome.

Eric: How’d you find us? Do you remember?

Stef: How did I find you guys? I don’t know. Maybe it was Fantastic Beasts time?

Andrew: Oh!

Eric: That sounds about right.

Stef: I’m not sure, but actually, that was a FOMO moment. I had FOMO that I didn’t know about you guys when I was a teenager through college…

Andrew: Aww.

Stef: … and I was like, “What have I been missing all of these years?”

Andrew: We get emails like that from time to time, like, “I can’t believe we didn’t discover you sooner.”

Stef: I was just alone in my room reading Harry Potter without all of these Harry Potter friends.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Love that. All right, well, thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Stef: And I’m Stef.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Micah and Stef: Bye.

Transcript #742

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #742, Prince It ‘Til You Ace It (HBP Chapter 18, Birthday Surprises)


Cold Open


Laura: I think offering these kids some strategies to approach the three D’s with would be helpful here, but instead he’s just like, “Oh, I mean, Susan’s leg fell off because she wasn’t determined enough.”

[Everyone laughs]


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, brush up on all of Golpalott’s Laws, because we’re discussing Chapter 18 of Half-Blood Prince, “Birthday Surprises.”


News


Andrew: Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, though, couple of news items. Micah, what did you catch this week?

Micah: Yeah, so I know, Andrew, you and I did an episode, a mini episode a couple months back, talking about how Netflix was set to acquire Warner Media. Just kidding; in 2026 the tables have turned a little bit, and at least for right now, it appears that Paramount will be acquiring Warner Media instead of Netflix. They tried to get Netflix to up the amount that they were willing to pay, and Netflix declined, Paramount stepped in, and so who knows where we might be six months from now? But at least for the time being, this is the big news, and we’ll see what it holds for the Harry Potter series.

Andrew: So the big question is, where are you going to watch the Harry Potter series next year? On Paramount+? On HBO? All of the above? We’ll just have to wait and see. Well, speaking of the TV show, the show today, the day we’re recording, did announce a couple dozen young actors who will be playing various specific Hogwarts students, and we’ll look at these castings in our next TV show-focused episode of MuggleCast in a couple of weeks. I mainly want to see if any of these characters were in the book but not in the movie, and maybe from there we can get some clues about the plot lines that the show might include that we didn’t get in the films.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: So we will see.

Eric: I like that.

Andrew: So that’s what’s happening in the news. If you love MuggleCast as much as Slughorn loves Harry’s cheek, we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and we’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout, and lots more. Coming up in bonus MuggleCast later this week: Since this book is very focused on Horcruxes – we’re learning about Horcruxes – I want to know, if each of us were to make our own Horcruxes, what items would we turn into Horcruxes? And I want the panel to think what items mean so much to you that, like Voldemort, you would want to turn these things into Horcruxes? And don’t worry, everybody; I’m not going to ask you who you’re going to kill in order to create these Horcruxes.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Well, thank you for not asking us to incriminate ourselves.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: That’s really good of you.

Andrew: Not on air, anyway. After the show, the after after show, I’m going to be asking who you’re killing. [laughs] There are other great ways to support us to help us run MuggleCast. You can leave a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts and hats and glassware and lots more.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, so now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. This week, we’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 18, “Birthday Surprises.”

Eric: Yeah, we last talked about it on Episode 407, way back on March 4 of 2019. Guess what, guys? That title was “G.O.A.T.”

Andrew: Oh.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 407.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Micah: And I think one of the other things that’s kind of underscored through this chapter when we’re talking about the Horcruxes, or we’re talking about the potion-making, is the fact that when the three of them aren’t working together, it makes things a lot more challenging and a lot more difficult, because they all bring something to the table. And I think it’s challenging, particularly for Harry, to have to constantly be sharing information in two different situations, right? He can’t tell Ron and Hermione together about what Dumbledore has tasked him with. Can’t tell both of them together about the Horcruxes; they can’t work on a solution together. When they’re together, they’re at their best.

Andrew: [emotionally] Need to get the band back together. This is so sad.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I can’t take it anymore!

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: It’s true. Power in numbers.

Eric: They don’t call it the golden trio for nothing.

Micah: It’s very thoughtful insight.

Andrew: By you?

Micah: Yeah. Well, what? By you?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, good job, past Micah.

Andrew: No, no, I was just confirming you’re complimenting yourself. I just want to be clear.

Micah: Yeah, I am complimenting myself.

Andrew: Okay, okay.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Well, I know we’re going to get into discussion about Harry and Hermione. We’ve actually done a pretty good job, I think, so far on recent Chapter by Chapters talking about sort of the various character struggles that we’ve had. So during reading and planning for this week’s episode discussion, I kind of came at it a little off the wall, and will pray you guys humor me here. But I noticed something, and Harry in Potions class during this chapter finally finds himself, much to Hermione’s glee, at a complete loss. He’s out of his depth, and I know we will start there.

Andrew: Yeah, well, I mean, it is refreshing to see Harry struggling, at least for a little while, after so much success with the Prince’s book. He’s built up a lot of confidence, he feels like he’s kind of cracked the code, he’s at ease, and it’s kind of throwing him off his guard, because now he’s feeling stuck in Slughorn’s class. And I think it’s a good reminder for readers that even when you think you have everything figured out, there will be more bumps in the road ahead. And I like this little ego check for Harry. Do you agree, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, I think anytime you’re trying to take shortcuts to get through something difficult, eventually you’re going to be called to the mat to prove your knowledge, your capabilities in whatever area it is that you’re faking it in. And I think the problem with that is that “Fake it till you make it” falls flat on its face when there’s no substance behind it. It still works out for Harry, ultimately, in this scene, but I’m going to have a question later about why that is. So yeah, we’ll get back to it as we get through the doc. But yeah, I mean, this is… I think, Andrew, you put it perfectly. It’s a great ego check.

Andrew: “Fake it till you make it. Prince it till you… ace it”? That doesn’t totally rhyme, but close enough. [laughs]

Eric: Oooh. “Snapes it till you ace it”? I’m trying to think here. But yeah, it’s remarkable just how out of their depth everyone except Hermione is in the Potions lesson. It’s said that absolutely no one seems like they understand Golpalott’s Law except for Hermione, and during the class, she’s doing all this nonverbal magic because she’s mastered it so no one can copy her too. And it’s just like, there is something to be said for putting your head down and doing the work as Hermione and apparently nobody else has done. But a question I had for you guys was, is “Golpalott” a pun or something? We’re talking about potions and…

Andrew: Like “Gulp, I don’t know what I’m doing”?

Eric: Well, if you drink a potion, if you gulp it down, gulp a lot…

Andrew: Might be.

Laura: Yeah, actually, I thought this was a really clever catch, Eric. I think you’re on to something. Because again, we know that a lot of names in this series are not accidental.

Eric: Yeah, another way of saying that is all of them are intentional. Golpalott is pretty straightforward for… okay. Yeah, that’s what occurred to me. But that’s not all; if you guys would like to read this quote I’ve selected from Slughorn, he talks about “if you take Golpalott’s Law to be true…”

Andrew: “Our primary aim is not the relatively simple one of selecting antidotes to those ingredients in and of themselves, but to find that added component that will, by an almost alchemical process, transform these disparate elements.”

Eric: Alchemical, you say, dear professor? I want to, in just a moment, take us down a road inspired by that word alone, because I think it’s… we’re in a very high level Potions class, and this is the first time, I think, in context, we get any sense of what alchemy might look like in practice in the books, though it’s been mentioned sparingly before. But before I do that, I know, Micah, you have a good note about what function this serves within the chapter.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I love that we’re going to dive in and talk a little bit more about alchemy, but I think the main reason that this lesson is introduced is so that Harry can ultimately cut corners with a bezoar, which we know is going to play a much larger role at the end of this chapter. And speaking of a bezoar, we get another hint that Snape is, or could be, the Half-Blood Prince, because it was him… even though Harry can’t fully recall the exact moment, he does reference it that it was Snape who taught him about this back in Sorcerer’s Stone. Harry can’t quite put his finger on it, but we as readers certainly can.

Andrew: Well, Snape is soooo stupid and dumb and mean, there’s no way that this book could be his.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, we’re beefing with him. He couldn’t help us.

Micah: Yeah. And one process, or I guess one comparison that came to mind while this whole scene was playing itself out does relate to Horcruxes. So just as you have to isolate and understand each component to identify the correct antidote to this poison – and this poison is basically like super poison; it’s a combination of different poisons all thrown together – you can’t defeat Voldemort outright. His power right now is tied to his Horcruxes, and only by destroying each individual fragment can he ultimately be overcome. So I’d like to think that this was there for a reason, not just so that we get the introduction of the bezoar, especially following the last chapter, right? We ended the last chapter hearing the word “Horcrux” for the first time.

Eric: Right, and Harry pursues the Horcrux angle a little bit in this chapter, though he’s rebuffed by Slughorn and the plot. I like it, because again, this is such advanced potioning, and even Hermione doesn’t actually succeed in making the right antidote. She has something like ten different phials of potion, and she’s trying to cram more in after the clock runs out, which is not a good look for her, but whatever. So it’s wild to think of it and compare it to Voldemort’s quest for immortality, and how there’s always that little extra something, as Slughorn says. When it comes to defeating Voldemort, it’s greater than the sum of its individual parts, if you will.

Laura: Yeah, what I love about this point you make, Micah, is it also speaks to the headspace that Harry has to be in in order to successfully hunt down the Horcruxes and destroy them all. And clearly he’s not in the mindset yet, because he goes for the easy way out in this lesson. But we also see Ron and Hermione need to eventually get in this mindset as well so they can all go camping next year and hunt down the Horcruxes, and as Eric pointed out, even Hermione is not successful at this point. So yeah, I love that little bit of analysis and how you can apply it to the overall arc of the story. It’s cool.

Eric: Yeah. So digging back in to this word, “alchemy,” I’m reminded of the first time that we encounter it way back in Philosopher’s Stone, which is the big alchemical thing. Who wants to read the Chocolate Frog entry?

Andrew: Do you have it here?

Eric: Oh, it should be, isn’t it? Oh, crap.

Andrew: Oh, no, it’s here.

Micah: It’s further down.

Eric: I was like, [gasps] You don’t know it by heart, you guys?

Andrew: I know, right?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It says, “Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the Dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon’s blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel.”

Eric: So the whole first book, Philosopher’s Stone, Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, has to do with this quest for immortality, and not just Voldemort’s, but the actual success by this old alchemist named Nick Flamel, who basically is on league with Dumbledore, which shows you how powerful he is. But more than that, he’s 600 years or 500 years Dumbledore’s senior. And so it’s interesting that, following the destruction of the Philosopher’s Stone, which was canonized into Harry Potter as a significant branch of magic that Dumbledore himself studies, and it can make you live for 600 years if not live forever, but we never really hear about it again in the books. And so I was kind of just… I honestly forgot about it until coming across that quote from Slughorn and thinking, “Oh, so maybe alchemy is closest to, or resembles most closely, the level of intensity of having to concoct these antidotes.” And so it kind of just led me down this rabbit hole of thought of why don’t we ever learn more about alchemy? And can anybody even learn it at Hogwarts? Because it only is a mention.

Andrew: It’s an extra fee.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Oh, like Apparition?

Andrew: Apparition, yeah. [laughs]

Laura: To that point, Eric, Broc in our Discord is saying, “I think you can see Potions as 101, and alchemy as PhD level of the same field.”

Eric: Oh my gosh.

Laura: I love that.

Eric: I like that, because I think of it as more of like chemistry kind of. But also with potioning, especially because the method that Slughorn mentions of transforming the potion seems to be… I mean, he refers to it as alchemy, so I’m really curious. But the other thing that came up is that since the last time on MuggleCast where we would have been able to talk about alchemy was way back when Nick Flamel was in the Fantastic Beasts movies nine years ago, I was reminded that Micah, you have since read a particular book series called The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel, which was recommended by one of our patrons, I believe. And can you speak to that book and what happens? And do they give any better insight into what alchemy might look like in practice?

Micah: Yeah, I thought you were going to say that I’ve become an alchemist since the last time we discussed…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, I mean, I wasn’t going to spoil the fact that you are now immortal.

Micah: Oh.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: So I think probably the biggest difference is that in The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel, that alchemy is the core magic system, so magic in essence is presented as advanced alchemy. In Potter, we know that magic is really presented as spell-based, and as you were just talking about, alchemy is more background lore; it’s not something that we spend a lot of time with. And many of the characters in the series can manipulate the natural elements – so things like earth, air, fire, and water – to create really powerful effects and more so they can channel their aura or their life energy to perform alchemical feats, so they can heal, they can create illusions, they can control elements, or they can even enhance their physical strength. And there’s two kind of main core characters, in addition to Nicolas and Perenelle Flamel, Sophie and Josh. They’re these young kids, and throughout the series, they’re gradually unlocking their magical potential through alchemical training and ultimately looking to awaken these auras that I was talking about earlier. And the Philosopher’s Stone is still sort of the most important alchemical object; just like in Sorcerer’s Stone, it allows Nicolas Flamel and his wife to remain immortal, because it produces the Elixir of Life. But what happens in this series is the Codex – this is a 10,000-year-old book that contains the secrets of alchemy and the formula for creating the Elixir of Life – it’s stolen, and what happens is that the Flamels no longer have access to it, so they begin to age very rapidly, and so there’s this urgency to have to recover the Codex, and so what happens is basically the series is a race against time to recover the Codex and save the Flamels.

Eric: That sounds cool. [laughs]

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: So are we declaring all this canon for Harry Potter, then, since the Harry Potter books don’t…?

Micah: Sure.

Eric: Oooh.

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

Micah: Why not? And what I love about the series in particular – and I think a lot of the people listening would, as well as the rest of this panel here – is that the author, Michael Scott… not that Michael Scott, the other Michael Scott.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: He would not be that smart to write this.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, this author did not verbally declare bankruptcy, I’m guessing.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, wait, we have one of those sound effects too.

Michael Scott: No, God! No, God, please, no. No! Noooo!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Michael Scott, did you write this book?” Okay, sorry. Go ahead, Micah.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: It really does this amazing job of interweaving historical figures and mythological creatures and fictional heroes, and you never know when they’re going to pop up or who they’re ultimately going to be allied with.

Andrew: That is really neat.

Micah: So it’s a fun… they’re very easy reads. I forget how many books exactly are in the series, but it’s something I feel like listeners of the show would thoroughly enjoy, and I definitely recommend it. Eric, as you touched on, it was recommended to me by… I think in a Slug Club hangout it came up.

Andrew: There are six of these books in the series.

Micah: There we go. There should be seven.

Eric: Yeah. No, it definitely feels like sharing life energies and transmuting substances… it feels like the perfect marriage in Harry Potter between Potions and Transfiguration, basically. So we don’t know that there’s a college for wizards, but that would clearly be where you would have to go to learn the thing. But when I got this connection to Dumbledore… because Dumbledore is all over this chapter, even though he’s not mentioned in it. We have Dumbledore pressuring Harry to extract this memory, this untarnished memory from Professor Slughorn. But if Potions is just alchemy junior, and this book is all about Snape, who’s the Half-Blood Prince, whose book Harry heavily relies on for his innate Potions knowledge, I’ve got to ask: Is Dumbledore actually a super potioner, basically?

Laura: Because I guess he’s good at everything, right?

Eric: Well, that’s it!

Laura: I feel like at every turn in the series, it’s like, “Oh, okay, yeah, he does alchemy,” and “Oh, yeah, he can be places and not be seen,” and so on and so forth. He knows everything, right?

Eric: He’s so OP, my gosh.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But yeah, I mean, if you even think back to that same Chocolate Frog Card that we read earlier, Dumbledore discovered – and was the first wizard to do so – the 12 uses of dragon’s blood. That, to me, does sound also straight-up alchemical, talking about stuff like the uses and what you would use the blood for. And it sounds potion-y, too.

Laura: Totally. Yeah, I don’t think we ever explicitly get all 12 uses laid out…

Andrew: We don’t.

Laura: … but I know dragon blood is a key ingredient in the Wolfsbane Potion. I believe it can also be used as an oven cleaner.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve used it for that once or twice.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Laura: So it’s multi-faceted.

Eric: Now I’m trying to think… doesn’t Slughorn use it at the beginning to pretend he’s been grievously injured?

Laura: He does.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: That’s one of the uses, too.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Decoy blood.

Laura: Fake a crime scene.

Eric: I’m pretty sure… see, that’s the funny thing, is I’m not sure it’s a unique use of dragon’s blood. You can use any blood as a decoy. But I’m going to give Dumbledore his credit here. But yeah, it’s kind of wild to me that…

Micah: Well, what does it say, though, that…? Maybe it’s a movie-ism, but doesn’t Dumbledore taste it?

Laura: I think that is a movie-ism.

Micah: I was going to say, how do you know what it tastes like?

Eric: It’s clearly something he’s very familiar with. If you’re trying to find out new uses for it… maybe one of the uses is as a frozen ice cream pop for vampires.

Andrew: An ice cream topping.

Eric: [laughs] Knowing Dumbledore’s love of sweets, that sounds pretty aligned. But there was actually another deep kind of magic that we hear about in this chapter in Apparition, and before we get to talking about that, let’s hear a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: Welcome back. Okay, so we get on to our Apparition lesson, and it’s our first proper lesson. We meet Wilkie Twycross, who is delightfully described as a guy who’s kind of barely there. I laugh every single time I read this chapter for that. But what’s interesting about this lesson is similar to the Potions lesson, where it’s over pretty much everyone but Hermione’s head. The so-called three D’s are not really grasped by anybody either, and over a course of weeks, nobody has managed to accomplish what seems like it only has three easy steps. What do we make of that?

Laura: This lesson is so frustrating to read because there’s no actual teaching that happens here. This guy is literally like, “Just focus, y’all. Just focus on it really hard.”

Andrew: “Guys, it’s easy.”

Laura: And how do you expect these teenagers to figure this out? Especially when we know that there are grown wizards who can’t necessarily Apparate. There’s a skillset to it, and while I understand that it’s probably nebulous, and there’s no quick bullet list of exact steps you need to follow to make it work, I think offering these kids some real-world strategies to approach the three D’s with would be helpful here, but instead he’s just like, “Oh, I mean, Susan’s leg fell off because she wasn’t determined enough.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Yeah, let that be a lesson to you all. Got to get more determined.”

Laura: Right. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, these are vague instructions. And we remember, too, that this is a paid add-on at Hogwarts…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … so you would think, if you’re paying, you would get the best teaching.

Eric: That’s right! “Thanks for your 12 Galleons!” Oh, they’ve all been ripped off.

Andrew: And you would also think the Ministry would be treating these lessons a little more seriously, because they don’t want kids losing limbs. Yeah, they can fix this, but I don’t know. They do seem to be very relaxed about teaching such a pretty serious, consequential form of magic.

Eric: I mean, maybe it’s one of those things where you either get it or you don’t. But here’s the thing: I think that maybe Wilkie Twycross was at one point a good teacher, and he eventually over time… he’s the kind of guy you could see his lesson plan over time devolved into a catchphrase, right? So maybe 20 years ago, he was spending more time with individual students, and he had more to say in the matter, but whether through age, senility, or the fact that he’s been Apparating so often that parts of him are getting stuck being left behind, maybe he really doesn’t have it anymore, what it takes to really show the kids how to do it.

Micah: Reminds me of the person who scores you on your Driver’s Ed. test who just looks like they don’t want to be there anymore.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: They’ve been there for 50 years, and they’ve seen so many people not be able to parallel park or properly execute a turn. You know what I’m saying.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: Anyway, I also think there’s probably a certain level of pressure on all of these students being in the same room together and trying to concentrate with so many of their peers around them. You’d think that maybe at least initially, they would separate the groups and maybe take them to different places within Hogwarts, although I know that they’re lifting the Apparition ban within the Great Hall specifically, but I’m sure that they could do that in other places.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: It is pretty chaotic. And I feel like, too, trying to teach them a skill like this and having such a narrow target seems like it would be more difficult.

Eric: Ohh.

Laura: It’s effectively a glorified hula hoop they have lying on the floor in front of each of these kids. It just seems like it would be easier to master this if you had a larger radius that you could be targeting.

Eric: Like a hill.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: “Try and get to the top of the hill,” and it’s not, “I’m going to try and get…” Maybe they did it because you have to visualize the destination, so maybe it’s just easiest if you can see all of it already, so it’s just in front of you.

Andrew: Yeah, I was going to say something somewhat similar: Because they are so close to this glorified hula hoop, maybe it is, in theory, easier to Apparate into something so close by, thus it can be a small target for you. Whereas the further away it is, the harder it is to actually narrow down where you’re actually going. Just a thought.

Eric: So they’re doing everyone a favor. I love these theories about Apparition, too, like that maybe Wilkie is the ideal build for this because there’s not much to him, so he’s very thin. And we hear that Charlie failed the first time he tried because he was bigger.

Andrew: But also, yes, Laura. Hogwarts is chaotic. I mean, this is just par for the course at this school.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: You know what’s funny is the last time we were discussing this chapter, we were just getting in the vogue of talking about how much of a nightmare, in many ways, Hogwarts was, which led to the clip, which is really, really sweet. But yeah, the thing that I want to focus on, too, before we move on is this idea that you can feel your way into nothingness. Here’s the quote…

Andrew: I wish.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I want to disassociate.

Eric: Well, say more. Say more.

Andrew: [laughs] No, no, I just… this reminds me of just wanting to shut your brain off and disassociate from everything. It was just a joke. Go on.

Eric: Do you think you could Apparate into nonbeing, though? Because that actually… you know what? That kind of does sound peaceful.

Andrew: That would be pretty cool.

Laura: I don’t know, maybe give these kids a smartphone and let them doomscroll. Always does it for me.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: No, there are certain elements of this that remind me of meditation.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: So Andrew, when you were talking about dissociating just before, parts of these… or some of these steps do have meditative elements to them.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Determination, I think, is…

Eric: Right. Yeah, Apparition seems to all be about will and willpower, and the fewer distractions that you have – so empty your mind, get ready to meditate – the more likely you are to be successful. So Wilkie’s steps: Destination. “Fix your mind firmly upon the desired destination.” We understand that. “Step two, focus your determination to occupy the visualized space! Let your yearning to enter it flood from your mind to every particle of your body!” Interesting use of the word “particle,” by the way. Sounds like he’s talking about science and physics. And “Step three… Turn on the spot, feeling your way into nothingness, moving with deliberation!”

Andrew: [laughs] This is like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time, I feel like.

Eric: Oh, right.

Andrew: “Turn on the spot, feel your way into nothingness, while also yearning for that determination to flood from your mind to every particle of your body.” There really is a lot you have to juggle here.

Eric: That reminds me, there’s probably a comparison to be drawn of like, you suck at teaching something after you’ve already learned to do it and have done it successfully for 40 years. It’s like, oh, you don’t really think about how to swim; that’s why you take your kid to swimming lessons when a professional who’s learned at teaching people who don’t know how to swim to swim, otherwise you just kind of swim, right?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But yeah, again, feeling your way into nothingness, feeling it with every particle of your body, really reminds me of the most advanced magic that we have seen in Harry Potter. The Patronus, for one, the Summoning Charms in year four, all involved a tremendous amount of willpower and concentration, and to me, this idea of “Feel your way into nothingness…” these students have never… it’s first day, and then it’s several weeks later, and they still haven’t done it, because they haven’t felt nothingness before. “Feel your way into nothingness”? How can I feel something that isn’t there? It literally isn’t the physical space, so it’s intangible; you can’t feel it. To me, this sums up…

Micah: Especially this year; they’re all feeling each other.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: They’re feeling so many tangible things this year that this comes at the worst time, really. That’s a great point. But to me, I feel like I’m reading Plato’s “The Cave” for the first time or something. And it’s like your will, human consciousness, informs the world, and for a wizard who has magic, they need only be sufficiently determined and deliberate in order to literally break all of the laws of nature down to transport themselves, and it all comes back to this idea of willpower. So somebody like Dumbledore, who can Side-Along Apparate somebody else that’s never done it before, that must be two or three times more difficult than just regular Apparating, but we’re reminded he has a superior brain.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I like that a lot. I mean, and what you’re sharing here, I think, just speaks to how these kids probably aren’t fully ready to learn Apparition. And Micah mentioned that it sounds like meditation; there should be probably some sort of meditating class that comes along with these lessons, or… we’ve seen Harry practice Occlumency and fail to succeed.

Eric: Oh, that’s a good call-out.

Andrew: It’s kind of similar in that you need to clear your head and focus.

Eric: Yeah. We’re being given kind of the roadmap to more advanced type of magic, and the through-line is all of this meditative type stuff. To have superior willpower, superior brainpower, and a lack of distraction seems to be the key to success in all of these.

Andrew: Yeah, even something like Floo Powder, you have to speak clearly, or else you’re going to be going to the wrong place.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You’re right; these are all tied together. Focus is super important when it comes to magic in this wizarding world.

Eric: I mean, it also just kind of reminds me of The Matrix, right? When Neo learns that it’s all simulation, and so he and Trinity and the others can all basically start bending the rules of it. If you know, you know, and you can exercise it. So again, that makes it hard to teach.

Laura: Yeah. It also just really makes me wish that in the core series, we got more exposure to the building blocks of magic and more advanced forms of magic and how it all works. And I know we’ve had episodes talking about that, but it really feels like an opportunity for HBO or Paramount, or whoever is going to own this stuff, to look at a spinoff. I’m thinking about what is it that Dumbledore and Flamel were doing together for all those years that got Flamel labeled as Dumbledore’s partner in the Chocolate Frog Card? There’s an entire backstory there of research and academia and alchemy and all these things that we never get in the books; it’s just mentioned. That would be a cool prequel.

Andrew: Yeah, and remember, we’ve seen these photos of Flamel and Dumbledore meeting with each other on a beach, so we might get bits and pieces of what you’re describing. Doesn’t seem like we’re going to go back in time, but their relationship is going to be expanded for the TV show, it seems like.

Eric: I want it.

Laura: For sure. I just think a spinoff would be cool.

Andrew: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I would not complain about any additional series.

Eric: All right, well, thanks for joining me on this journey into more advanced magical topics. Okay, guys, let’s talk more about Hermione and how she’s kind of very gloaty in this chapter, and then she’s kind of very upset with Harry.

Micah: I can understand where she’s coming from, but I also think she’s being a bit of a tit in this chapter, the way that she is gloating at Harry. Let Harry have his one year in a particular class of being the star pupil. Suck it up, buttercup. No?

Laura: But there’s no merit to it. It’d be one thing if he was the star pupil because he actually was, but it’s all a lie.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: My big thing is that Hermione is frustrated by Harry because Slughorn is all tickled by Harry’s use of the bezoar, but the reality is, he didn’t follow Slughorn’s directions at all! He totally went a different direction! And Slughorn is like, “Oh, yeah, that actually could work! Good job, Harry. Ten points to Gryffindor.” I don’t like that part.

Laura: And so here’s my question that I referred to at the top of the show: How would Slughorn have reacted if any other student pulled what Harry pulled here? Would he have been as impressed? Would he have been as tickled by the sheer cheek of somebody to do exactly what Harry did?

Eric: Immediate expulsion.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t think so, but I just think Harry is getting preferential treatment.

Andrew: I agree, 100%.

Micah: If it were somebody in the Slug Club, I think he would be okay with it.

Laura: Of course.

Micah: I don’t know if he would have had as exuberant of a reaction as he did with Harry, especially because he starts shouting Lily’s name and associating him with his mom. “Oh, his mother’s son,” and he just goes on and on and on. But for me, though… I mean, it is important in this moment that Harry learns about the bezoar, because if he doesn’t, Ron is in a lot of trouble at the end of this chapter.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: So it’s actually really good for Hermione, too. I know she’s not on speaking terms with Ron in this moment, but she would be down a future husband…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s true.

Micah: … if not for Harry being cheeky during this particular lesson.

Laura: Yeah, it all works out. [laughs]

Micah: I think the part that bothers me, though, is that she wants to be the teacher’s pet. I think that’s part of it.

Eric: Because she’s put in the work, though, right?

Micah: But she’s always the teacher’s pet, so share it.

Eric: But she knows this stuff. I don’t know. I think Hermione is done a disservice in the writing, or from Harry’s perspective, because it’s harkened on how she recites exactly the answer from the book, and she recites it faster than you would believe, and it makes her feel disingenuous, except she really does get it. In this chapter, she really does get it.

Micah: And she’s using nonverbal magic on top of it to ensure that nobody is cheating off of her.

Eric: But if you could do it, you should, right?

Micah: 100%. No, and I’m not trying to discredit her here in any way. She works harder than anybody else in this chapter and still isn’t able to complete the task. And Harry just uses a workaround here, thanks to the Half-Blood Prince.

Eric: I’m starting to think that if Harry were my classmate, I wouldn’t like him.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: I mean, come on, the guy’s always doing the bare minimum and getting praised for it. But I mean, for me, the telling part about Hermione in this chapter and why she’s so, let’s say, extra – almost bordering on too much – is that Harry, again, just wants… he’s worried about how it affects him. He’s sad that it affects… that it’s uncomfortable for him to have to tell Hermione about Horcruxes and then Ron about Horcruxes. But at the end of the day, he goes up to Hermione and he literally says, “Couldn’t you just…?” And she says, “No,” flat out, because he’s still asking her to be the one that comes down to Ron’s level and forgives him and apologizes, and why does she have to do that emotional work? Why is she the one that Harry is asking “Couldn’t you just” to? And so I’m with Hermione in this chapter.

Laura: Yeah. Unfortunately, Harry is just recognizing that of the two of them, Hermione is the one who has the emotional and mature capacity to be able to do that. And I don’t know that he would say this, but he recognizes that Ron is not it in this regard, not yet.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah. I think he’s asking her to be the bigger person, and she interprets it as if he’s asking her to compromise her morals or something.

Laura: Yeah. Well, the thing is, Hermione is always the bigger person in this series. She’s probably tired of it.

Eric: Wouldn’t you get sick of it? Yeah, yeah. So we know that Harry does ultimately fail to get the memory from Slughorn during the first part of this chapter, but what’s interesting to me is even though he hasn’t taken the Felix Felicis – we had that chapter named “Felix Felicis”; Felix, actually, we see the little vial in this chapter when he’s rummaging through his trunk – but Harry hasn’t taken it, and yet he still gets this sixth sense that, let’s be honest, he’s almost always had when it comes to handling situations, because he gets this sense of exactly what to do. Like the bezoar, he’s like… the book says, “If it were anyone else’s class, he wouldn’t have dared. If it were Snape, he wouldn’t have even tried it.” But because it’s Slughorn, he just had this sense. Harry just kind of felt like it would maybe be just enough to win the day. And he’s right, and so Harry already has a Felix sense of, I don’t know, serendipity.

Andrew: And maybe Harry was sensing that Slughorn would go easy on him, too. Just because he wasn’t following the directions doesn’t mean Slughorn was going to be mad at him or punish him.

Micah: The way he approaches the questioning of Slughorn, though, is just way too forward. It reminds me of earlier on in the book when Hermione goes into Borgin and Burke just after Draco was there to find out what it was that he was inquiring about…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and there’s just no thought that goes into the questioning, and it’s the same thing here with Harry. He’s outright asking Slughorn about Horcruxes, and when was even the last time Slughorn heard the word “Horcrux”?

Eric: Right.

Micah: There’s definitely… there wasn’t… and I think maybe this goes back to the clip that you played at the start of the show; the fact that the three of them are not working together in this moment, it hurts Harry in this particular time, because he’s just going for it, and he doesn’t put any kind of real thought behind it.

Andrew: I can’t remember when we were discussing what I’m about to share, but we were talking earlier in the book, I think, about Harry jumping straight to the point with things, maybe because he’s feeling rushed that there’s no time to waste. That’s kind of the impression that I’m getting here again. I mean, maybe Dumbledore should have said, “Hey, take your time with this. Play the long game, longish game. My hand’s not getting any better, but play the longish game.”

Eric: [laughs] “We have all the time in the world, provided… you get one month.”

Andrew: Yeah, I guess this is also a good learning lesson for both Harry and the reader that sometimes things like this take time. You can’t just… it’s not like a switch. You’ve got to work somebody for a little while. But I also just think Harry knows very well at this point, especially after how well that lesson went for him, that Slughorn is forgiving towards Harry, and maybe he felt like Slughorn would do him another solid here.

Laura: Yeah, honestly, I think it was a little bit of a Hail Mary, because Harry didn’t really know what to do here. Dumbledore didn’t exactly give him good instruction on how to approach this.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “It’s a test. I’m testing him.”

Laura: Yeah, and so I think up until this point, Slughorn has been very permissive of Harry, and so I think he’s just going out on a lark to see how easy he can make it for himself.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, there’s something to be said for the blindsiding angle. I don’t know who it would have worked on, but it seems reasonable enough for somebody to be like, “Oh, uh…” But instead, Slughorn is repulsed because his primary feeling is guilt about the whole thing, which that takes a lot more to unpack. But speaking of Harry, actually, Andrew, something you said about Harry being just so quick to reveal himself reminds me of this scene in the Great Hall during the Apparition lesson, when he sees that Crabbe and Malfoy are arguing, and then immediately darts off and positions himself right behind them. And just when it’s getting interesting, and Draco is talking about Crabbe and Goyle as lookouts, Harry comes from right behind him and is like, “You know, I tell my friends where I’m going at all times!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Couldn’t Harry have waited three more seconds, or let’s say, 30 more seconds, just as a lark, and gotten more information about what they were up to? Because they were arguing about it in public, and Harry cut things short.

Micah: Yeah, patience is a virtue.

Andrew: I think that Harry is, yeah, out of patience with Draco, and just is out of F’s to give when it comes to Draco, so he can’t resist the opportunity to prod him really quick when the opportunity strikes.

Micah: Definitely puts a scare in him.

Eric: Yeah, and there’s other times when Harry is obtuse, but he doesn’t at all realize why he’s not seeing Malfoy on the map.

Andrew: I feel like that should have been a red flag, not seeing Draco on the map. I think it’s said in this book, like, “Oh, there’s so many black dots. How can I find Draco? It’s impossible.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But he hasn’t had this problem before, has he?

Laura: Right.

Andrew: So I think this is something he maybe should have thought about more. “Why is that name not appearing?”

Eric: Maybe you could write to Lupin and be like, “Hey, having trouble trying to locate a particular somebody. It doesn’t matter who. They’re not on the map, but they’re probably at Hogwarts. So can you explain?”

Micah: Especially thinking back to Lupin’s “The map never lies” line, when it… and again, that could have been a movie-ism, but when they were talking about Peter Pettigrew. And I just think there’s a lot that Harry doesn’t take into consideration. He’s sitting there on the morning of Ron’s birthday. Draco is not in the… and we’re talking about the morning, right? So Draco should either be in the Slytherin common room, he should be in the Great Hall for breakfast, or maybe he’s with Snape, but Snape is in his office, so I just don’t understand why it’s not clicking for Harry. It should be.

Laura: Yeah, well, especially since he clearly can see Crabbe and Goyle on the map, and the fact that it doesn’t indicate a red flag for him that Crabbe and Goyle just seem to be loitering somewhere without their leader present?

Eric: Final thought here, a tiny little moment as Ron is being rushed down to Slughorn’s office. Ron brushes past Lavender, and he pushes past her and says, “Leave me alone.” She’s got a present for him; she remembered his birthday, or knows his birthday, which is very touching. But Ron says, “Harry’s going to introduce me to Romilda Vane.” Is this the beginning of the end, do we think, for their relationship?

Laura: If I recall correctly, this is where it starts going downhill. And I mean, rightfully so. Well, maybe… I think it’s been going downhill the entire time, but this is really the turning point. But I mean, rightfully so. If you put yourself in Lavender’s shoes, and yeah, your boyfriend brushes past you that way on his birthday, saying he’s going to go see another girl…

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, he could give a valid excuse after all this is resolved. But still, like you said, Laura, this relationship has been on the highway to hell for a while now. Ron’s heart is just not in this.


Odds & Ends


Eric: All right, well, I think that will wrap up our Chapter 18 discussion, save for some odds and ends, or one in particular connecting the threads. Micah?

Micah: Yeah, going back to Chamber of Secrets, Harry saves a Weasley in both. And it is worth mentioning that Ron does get poisoned at the end of this chapter, and that ties back into Draco’s nefarious activities at school this year.

Eric: Oh, yeah.


Superlative of the Week


Eric: For MVP of the Week, we asked what’s the best of the three D’s?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going with determination. Set your mind to it.

Eric: Yeah, can’t go wrong. I’m going to give it to destination, because imagining or visualizing where it is you want to go is almost as fun as actually being there.

Micah: I’ve got to agree with Andrew. Without determination, nothing much works in life.

Andrew: So true. So true, queen.

Laura: And I went with Dogbreath…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Excuse me?

Laura: … one of the nicknames that the students came up with for Professor Twycross.

Eric: That was one of the kindest. One of the most charitable nicknames for him.

Andrew: He’s paid to teach and he doesn’t even brush his teeth. Bad.

Laura: Yuck.


Lynx Line


Eric: So we now head to our Lynx Line, where over on Patreon, our patrons at the Slug Club level can participate. We do this every week, and this week’s prompt was for our patrons to name a time in school where they found themselves totally out of their depth subject-wise. We asked them, did you overcome your knowledge gap, and if so, was it hard work and determination that did it? A good teacher, maybe, or a tutor? Or did you just merely squeak by in class and never take up the subject again?

Andrew: Monet said,

“My graphics class in first year of engineering was horrible! I have a really difficult time thinking spatially, so drawing things 3-D and cross-section and even CAD software later in the course was awful! I just sat in the labs and cried; my brain doesn’t work that way! In the end, I went to every exam prep session and learned exactly how they would mark it. I made a strategy for how to get the most points possible, given what I could do (labelling dimensions, prep work FOR the hard stuff, etc.), passed, and never had to draw a 3-D cube again.”

Andrew: Onward!

Eric: Onward. Julie Ann says,

“Generally I was a Hermione in high school and college (still am), but two classes I loathed in college were Organic Chemistry 1 and 2, and then Genetics (professor was godawful). A good Memory Charm would be nice to clear thoughts on those classes!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oof, glad you made it through.

Micah: Rachelpuff says,

“I don’t think I ever remember being so clueless taking tests than I was in AP calculus in high school. I only scraped by from the teacher giving a ‘curve.’ I had to retake it in college and paid attention and did great. More obvious to me now I did so poorly in high school because I was always reading Harry Potter or Twilight under my desk.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Oh, grading on a curve was the best.

Eric: Oh, it was the best, yeah.

Laura: Well, I think AP Calculus might be a trauma bond subject for a lot of these folks.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Jason says,

“I took exactly one day of AP Calculus in high school. Our teacher gave us a packet of math we should have learned in Precalculus and told us to have at it. It was horrible and I felt super stupid… *shudders*”

Andrew: I want to give a shout-out to Nicole, one of our Slug Club members too, who also called out AP Calculus.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: I just didn’t include her full response this time. Robert said,

“In my freshman year of college I had a Media/Communications professor who was very nice but NOTORIOUSLY hard (one of those ‘Most people will fail my class’ types). He never made study guides, and literally ANYTHING he mentioned in class could end up on a test. Honestly, I ended up just barely passing by taking the Harry/Slughorn route. I constantly emailed him questions about topics he’d discussed, and also earned some extra credit he offered by pointing out typos in his textbook so he could have his publishers fix them for future editions.”

Eric: Oh! Oh, God.

Andrew: Sounds like a Lockhart situation.

Laura: Wow.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: He’s got his own textbook? Oh, that’s such a good strategy.

Andrew: “Buy my textbook for this class and you still won’t pass. It’s that hard.” Wow, I don’t like this guy at all.

Eric: Yeah, that guy sucks. Okay, Rachel said,

“I immediately thought of physics, which I took as a sophomore in high school. I loved the class and the teacher was fantastic, but once we got to the light and magnetism units, I was totally lost. I remember spending hours on homework and sitting in class copying down notes I didn’t understand at all. I went after school regularly to work with the teacher and he was so patient with me, but eventually said, ‘Try not to feel too badly. Some people are naturally good at this. You’re not one of them.'”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Whoa.

Eric: “I think he meant well. I ended up with a B for the class, which I was over the moon about.”

Andrew: That sounds like Trelawney. “Some people are naturally good at this, but you’re not one of them”?

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: She has said something like that in the books, hasn’t she? “You don’t have the Inner Eye”? [laughs]

Eric: “It’s clear that you do not possess the Inner Eye.”

Micah: And Matthew closes us out. He says,

“In grad school for professional writing, I took a class called ‘A Grammar of Standard Written English.’ Our textbook was called ‘American English: The Consensus.’ It was as hard as it sounds. I learned useful things, such as ‘It doesn’t matter if your grammar is bad, as long as you KNOW your grammar is bad.’ However, I just couldn’t get through the homework and tests. Finally, another student mentioned that she’d be happy to help me through it, so after class, I’d give her $20 and she’d help me. I passed. The teacher took her aside and thanked her.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: There are a bunch more responses on our Patreon. Thanks, everybody who submitted. If you have feedback about today’s episode, you can email or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube, or DM us on social. And next week, Chapter by Chapter continues with Half-Blood Prince Chapter 19, “Elf Tales.” Be sure to visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. Don’t forget, we’ll have a new bonus MuggleCast coming this week about the items in our lives that we would turn into Horcruxes.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: While Lord Voldemort commits patricide by killing Tom Riddle, Sr., what is the broader term used when someone kills a near relative of theirs, such as a grandparent? The answer we were…

Micah: It’s not unplugging.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, that’s right. Well, Micah, sorry to disappoint. The word we were looking for is parricide, as in patricide, but you replace the T with an R. It’s double R, parricide. Some people did submit familicide. We were looking for parricide, and that’s what Riddle does to his grandparents. 33% of people with the correct answer say they didn’t look it up, so we find out why in some of these names. This week’s Quizzitch winners: Marry Me, Laura…

Andrew and Laura: Oh.

Eric: Hold on. I have her email address, by the way.

Laura: Okay. Send it over.

Eric: [laughs] Also, I Listen to Too Much True Crime so I Knew This Answer Too Quickly… that’s delightful.

Laura: Love it.

Eric: … Eden the Muggle-born, established 2012; Voldetort; Count Ravioli Impasta… as in impasta, imposter.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That has to be the best name.

Eric: That’s the best name I’ve ever seen in my life. And runner-up, Discount Ravioli; FieryGirl; Eden Elmendorf Muggle-born, established 2012… a lot of 14-year-olds listen to our show and participate in Quizzitch, apparently. Owlebear; and Ol’ Voldymoldy. Thanks to everyone who submitted, and here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 18 of Book 6, a bezoar from the stomach of a goat is used as a cure for poison. In reality, bezoars can appear in humans as ailments. What popular soft drink brand is used to treat bezoars in humans?

Andrew: Ooh.

Eric: Here’s a hint: It’s exactly the one that you think. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website – go to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch – or if you’re already on our site, maybe checking out the transcripts or the must listens page, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar at the top.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. Congratulations on your engagement, Laura. I’m Andrew.

Laura: Thank you.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #741

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #741, Party in the Portraits (Half-Blood Prince Chapter 17, ‘A Sluggish Memory’)


Cold Open


Andrew: But I just want to also add that when stuff like this happens in media – a movie, a TV show, or book – these tender moments between two characters, one of them is going to die.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: They’re working in the last moments of love before one of them dies.

Eric: [laughs] Oh no!

Andrew: This always happens in storytelling.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app and you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, get ready for the H-word to finally be mentioned, because we’re discussing Chapter 17 of Half-Blood Prince, “A Sluggish Memory.”

Eric: Haberdashery? Honky-tonk? Hippopotamus? Horticulture? What’s the H-word? I’m dying to know.

Andrew: Hor-something or other. We’ll have to…

Micah: Horace.

Andrew: Horace Slughorn.

Eric: That word starts with a W, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No, no, no. Horace.

Eric: Horace!

Andrew: Oh, Eric. Well, listeners, if you love MuggleCast as much as Dumbledore loves telling Harry to put things out of his mind…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout – we did one of those earlier this week – and lots more. We can’t do this without you, so thank you so much in advance. You get livestream access, like I said. Carlee has the H-word; it’s Hufflepuff. Eric, you should’ve known that, as a Hufflepuff.

Eric: Oh.

Laura: Duh. Why didn’t any of us think of that?

Eric: Darn, okay. Wow.

Andrew: And there are other great ways to support us, to help us run this independent podcast. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can tell a fellow Muggle about our show. You can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and more.

Eric: Please do.

Andrew: At the MuggleCast merch shop, you can buy some of our old patron gifts, like the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt that I’m wearing tonight. Lots of options for you, lots of ways to support us. Also, when you are a patron, you get to watch the livestream, and for the third time in the last ten minutes, I’m going to comment on Micah’s new glasses. You get to check out Micah’s new glasses on the livestream.

Eric: Yes, people on the Discord, please weigh in. Yes, I’m going to start a poll. People who think they are awesome, people who think they’re awesome and sexy, or people who think they’re just sexy.

Micah: You’re going to make it really hard for them.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yes, they’re very difficult, challenging polls.

Andrew: I’m the last one standing in the glasses department in terms of not wearing glasses. I wonder how many more years of MuggleCast until…

Micah: Oh, but you might a little bit later on in this episode.

Andrew: Ooh.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: We might need your dulcet tones.

Andrew: Oh, the Dumbledore glasses. Yes, I do have props.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: All right, well, without further ado, let’s get into Chapter by Chapter. We’re discussing Chapter 17 of Half-Blood Prince, “A Sluggish Memory.”

Eric: Which was last discussed on Episode 405 of MuggleCast. That episode was titled “Through and Through,” and it debuted on February 11 of 2019.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 405.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Micah: Slughorn holds the truth to what Voldemort is up to, and I’m surprised that he’s not more highly sought after by Voldemort. It seems like he would be more of a target to me.

Andrew: I was going to say maybe Tom Riddle just forgot, but he couldn’t possibly forget who told him about the Horcrux magic.

Eric: Yeah, you never forget your first.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Wow.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: Confused? I’d be surprised if you weren’t.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Never forget your first Horcrux.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: Now that was Michael Gambon, correct?

Eric: That was at the end, yes. We changed it up a little bit at the end there, because also this is the chapter, you guys, where Dumbledore says the line, that “This is the most important memory of all time that I’ve collected.”

Micah: And we’re going to discuss that to see, is it really the most important?

Eric: Oooh.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: But before we dive into the memory bank, we need to talk about abstinence, because…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: What?

Eric: It’s a little late for that.

Andrew: It’s very important.

Micah: Things are clearly, clearly getting a little bit out of control at Hogwarts, so much so that the Gryffindor tower password has been renamed to “Abstinence.” And I want to ask, what do we all make of this? We can talk about what the Fat Lady was up to during the Christmas holiday. We can also just talk about how things are this year at Hogwarts in Harry’s sixth year. There’s a lot of hooking up going on.

Eric: Lot of hormones. Lot of raging hormones.

Andrew: There’s another H-word.

Micah: And I think there’s also a follow-up question as to why Ron, at least, as a prefect, doesn’t know the password to get into Gryffindor tower?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God, don’t even get me started.

Micah: But let’s start with the abstinence.

Eric: Okay, the abstinence. Do you think the Fat Lady is the kind of person who manifests in order to really control herself, and not go on these benders over the holiday break, she wakes up and just mutters to herself a single word every day, “Abstinence, abstinence,” and to remind herself further, she makes all the students say it to her multiple times a day, and thus controls her urge to not be abstinent from that 500-year-old wine in the picture of the monks downstairs?

Andrew: You wouldn’t have guessed that the people in the portraits are having fun in this way over the holidays. That could be a whole other episode of the show, that these people…

Eric: Or that they can drink! That works?

Andrew: That too! Yeah.

Eric: The wine is made of paint! The people are made of paint!

Andrew: I think she’s manifesting better behavior for herself. This isn’t a lesson for the students, though there is, of course – like you said, Micah – that theme in this book of romance. But I think she is second guessing her behavior over the holidays. I do also find it interesting that “abstinence” and the word “slut” come up in the same children’s series chapter. I don’t think that’s a coincidence either.

Micah: And let’s not forget, Ron was about to refer to Ginny that way and gets cut off. So there’s some more mature words that are floating their way into the Harry Potter series in Half-Blood Prince.

Eric: Well, that’s it too. I mean, I think it ultimately works on many levels. This is the book with the raging hormones, and so it’s kind of funny that the students have to say “abstinence” to get into your House dorm, or else what? They sleep outside in the hall? [laughs] It’s kind of cruel, and at the same time, funny.

Laura: Yeah, it is kind of clever, and it makes me honestly want to go back and do an analysis of every password the Fat Lady has set for Gryffindor tower over the years, because I want to see if the passwords are actually connected to other story arcs.

Andrew: Ohh.

Eric: Yeah, what does “Wattlebird” mean for the Fat Lady?

Micah: I’m glad you brought that up, though, Laura, because in looking at them, I did do a quick check when planning the discussion, and this really feels like the first one that isn’t in that magical world.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: It doesn’t have a tie back, necessarily, and it’s just kind of in your face. It’s just a normal word.

Eric: It’s sort of PSA, right? It’s sort of like, “Remember, kids, don’t do drugs” kind of thing.

Micah: Also, how much stuff has she seen as the protector of Gryffindor tower? Especially this year with all we hear about with Ron and Lavender, and maybe she’s just tired of it all.

Andrew: Well, and you have to think previous sixth and seventh years who have gone through that door in the middle of the night. She’s seen some…

Micah: She’s seen it all.

Andrew: … entertaining behavior, yeah. In terms of Ron not knowing the password, I’m chalking this up to he just forgot or missed it. He was notified, all students are notified, but it would be very typical of a teenager to have missed or have forgotten that a password has changed. I read these kind of moments as they’re being irresponsible kids and just missing it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I mean, the prefect should have had a five-minute sort of huddle, I think, with the Heads of House at the beginning of the year. No matter where you were, McGonagall would come find you, Ron. There’s ultimately no excuse for a prefect not to know it, especially because prefects are looked up to to disseminate the password.

Laura: Yeah. It does make me wonder how they’re informed, though, especially if the password is changing during the winter holidays. They would presumably have to write it down and send it to them, and that’s a security risk, right? If passwords…

Eric: They put it on an owl and the owl got lost.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Or it was in the common room before they left for the holidays, and again, they just missed it. I don’t know. I do have to think there is some efficient system in place, but like any kid, they just missed the update.

Micah: Well, somebody who does know the password is Hermione.

Laura: Of course.

Micah: Perhaps she did not pass along the information to fellow prefect Ron, because she full-blown cold shoulders him when they arrive back at Hogwarts…

Eric: Good for her.

Micah: … but it does give Hermione the opportunity to catch up with Harry, and really the big piece of information that Harry wants to share with Hermione is what happened with Draco and Snape before they left for the holidays, and much like Mr. Weasley and Lupin in the previous chapter, Hermione is very much convinced that Snape is likely pretending to offer to help Draco so he can trick him into providing information. And I don’t think any of us are really surprised here that despite Harry’s best efforts and continuing piling of evidence, nobody is believing what he has to say.

Eric: That’s a shame.

Micah: So the other thing I just wanted to bring up before we start talking about the memories from this chapter is it is time to learn to Apparate. So we see a note up on the message boards in the Gryffindor common room that Apparition lessons are going to be available to students, and I thought we could spend a little bit of time – and we probably have talked about this a bit on other episodes – what kind of real world comparisons could we make to learning to Apparate? I think getting your learner’s permit for driving, at least here in the US, is probably the most applicable.

Eric: Definitely.

Micah: There’s an excitement that builds towards getting into a car for the first time, getting behind the wheel, learning how to drive, and these are both means of transportation in very different ways. So curious to get your thoughts on that.

Andrew: I think these are both tied to the feeling of freedom. When you’re able to drive yourself, get your first car, you feel free. I remember being allowed to drive to high school every morning; that was a huge deal. I wasn’t stuck on the bus. I could stop at McDonald’s on the way there or back if I wanted to.

Eric: Oh my God, that was luxury.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s the freedom that comes with both of these that’s very exciting.

Eric: And I think the sort of formal process really denotes the danger that is involved. When you get behind the wheel of a two-ton automobile, that is really dangerous, and so in order to respect it, you’ve got to go through actually learning how to do it. And similarly with Apparition, it’s very dangerous, very difficult to do. Not everyone will ever be able to do it, which is also true with driving, to some extent. But also, you need to be taught and instructed, and I go back to the driver’s ed instructor at my school in high school. Not all high schools provide those lessons; sometimes you have to go to a driving school that’s a whole separate building run by separate people or the DMV or the state. But yeah, my guy was one of the most memorable teachers we ever had, and some of those things, like how to change a tire, that were added on to the driver’s ed curriculum, are lifelong lessons that were really, really important. And it reminds me a lot of these Apparition lessons with them having to really, really practice until they’re good at it, until they’re let loose into the world.

Micah: Yeah, that’s actually a really great way of describing it. The one thing that rubbed me a little bit the wrong way, though, was that it costs 12 Galleons…

Eric: Eugh.

Micah: … which is just about 75 US dollars, for these lessons. And I was wondering, shouldn’t they be free? I guess driving lessons aren’t free either, but…

Andrew: You’re thinking because they’re at Hogwarts and intuition is free. I’m feeling… so it’s noted that members of the Ministry teach these lessons. If this were Hogwarts faculty teaching this, then I could see your point. But I guess the thinking here is that the teaching is sort of being outsourced, and this is optional. You don’t need to learn to Apparate. Like Eric said, some people can’t even do it, so this is kind of like a luxury upgrade or purchase at Hogwarts.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I had to… my parents had to pay for my driving lessons.

Micah: Same.

Andrew: Mine must’ve too.

Laura: I think it just depends.

Andrew: And maybe they cost money in the UK, too, so maybe that’s what the author was trying to go for, like, “Oh, just like…” Because I mean, how else do they get around? Not with a car. By train, I guess?

Eric: Well, broomsticks cost lots and lots and lots more Galleons. Floo Powder is probably pretty cheap. It’s like taking the bus, maybe. Although there’s also the bus, which is a pretty simple…

Micah: Public transportation.

Eric: Yeah. But Becky in the Discord is pointing out something that reminds me… she says, “It’s interesting that the lessons are more expensive than a seven Galleon wand.” And here’s where the currency system of the wizarding world completely falls apart: When you start to compare the cost of one thing to the cost of literally anything else, it does not add up. Seven Galleons for a wand that’s going to last you your entire lifetime, and 75 Galleons for six weeks of lessons. What are you going to do?

Laura: Well, 12 Galleons.

Eric: Oh, 12, yeah.

Laura: But you know what? I actually think we could read into this as like a commentary on government corruption and bureaucratic bloat.

Eric: Sure.

Laura: Like, yeah, of course the Ministry is going to try and make as much money as they can. Who among us hasn’t at some point, when we had to either get a document or go through some kind of process where we were getting some kind of certification from the government…

Eric: Ohhh my God.

Laura: … and thought, “I really have to pay this much for this piece of paper?” Or something.

Eric: Yeah, the administrative fee, the tax, the fee fee… yeah, it’s insane.

Micah: Might as well start early. That’s the message.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: You’ll be doing this for the rest of your life.

Micah: Andrew, though, I did want to call out, though, when you said “driving lessons” earlier, it made me think of the movie with Rupert Grint and Julie Walters.

Laura: Yeah!

Andrew: [laughs] I haven’t seen that yet. Maybe I’ll have to.

Eric: It’s good! Yeah, Julie Walters plays his mom. It’s great.

Micah: Watch it after Survivor.

Andrew: Okay, sure.

Micah: [laughs] I’m planning your weekend for you.

Eric: My final thought on the cost of Apparition lessons is that maybe it directly finances the happy crew over at the Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes. So the people who actually pick up your Splinched parts when you get it wrong are working a lot of overtime for the kids, so that’s why it costs so much money.

Micah: Yeah, and much like many other situations, Harry is a bit of a star here, too, because he has already Apparated.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And this is spreading like wildfire; he’s getting a lot of kudos from his fellow classmates. But Hermione has a message for Harry from Dumbledore, and Harry is going to continue his lessons, and we’re off to Dumbledore’s office. And Dumbledore is very dismissive to Harry in most of this chapter.

Eric: Augh.

Micah: And they start off on a good note when they’re talking about the Minister’s visit at the Burrow. Harry is Dumbledore’s man through and through. Dumbledore tears up a little bit; Fawkes tears up a little bit.

Andrew: It was so sweet.

Micah: But when it gets to the topic of Professor Snape and Draco, it’s just not good for Harry, and I feel for him in this situation. And I put a few of Dumbledore’s quotes in here, and Andrew, I’m wondering if you’ll do me the honor of reading some of the things that…

Andrew: Oh-whoaaa!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Was that Trelawney or Dumbledore?

Andrew: The Dumbledore is waking up. [imitating Dumbledore] “Thank you for telling me this, Harry, but I suggest that you put it out of your mind. I do not think that it is of great importance.” Another line from Dumbledore: [imitating Dumbledore] “… blessed as I am with extraordinary brainpower, I understand everything you told me. I think you might even consider the possibility that I understood more than you did. Idiot.” Oh no, he didn’t say that part.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Again, I am glad that you have confided in me, but let me reassure you that you have not told me anything that causes me disquiet.” Were you going to say something, Eric?

Eric: The thing about this is it’s completely absurd to hear this. Harry, for the stuff he’s caught Malfoy in the act of… this is like if there were a high school sophomore that you overheard or suspected was going to try and blow up the school, and then after suspecting this for months, you then find him chatting with a teacher about the plan to blow up the school. By the way, this is what happens, because when the Death Eaters come at Hogwarts at the end of the year, it’s like Battle of Hogwarts lite. Classrooms are destroyed, hallways are a mess, the school’s on fire. So you hear this, that this sophomore in your high school wants to blow up the school and is plotting with a teacher. You go and tell the principal, and the principal says, “Blessed as I am with superior brainpower, trust that I have understood more than what you did about what you’re seeing, and it doesn’t cause me a lick of worry.”

Andrew: [laughs] So the ego is a choice by Dumbledore here…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … but Harry and Dumbledore are close, so this isn’t just like any student and principal situation. They have a… [sighs] I know maybe you’ll disagree with this, because Dumbledore is not…

Eric: That’s why he should take him more seriously!

Andrew: Yeah, I guess. But Harry does have enough on his plate, and Dumbledore is giving him these extra classes while he’s in a full-time regular student job, if you will. So I don’t know if he really needs to have this very critical bit of information right now. Harry is going to totally lose focus if Dumbledore is like, “Yeah, I’m going to die before long, and Draco needs to kill me.”

Laura: Well, yeah, him dying and Draco killing him is the plan, and he knows Harry, and if Harry were to realize that this was a plan, Harry would try to stop it, and Dumbledore doesn’t want him to because he’s going to die anyway.

Andrew: Yeah, Harry would be like, “Let’s kill Draco,” or “Let’s get Draco out of the school,” or “Let’s kill Snape AND Draco.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Harry would go postal.

Laura: I don’t think Harry would want to kill them, but…

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: The thing is… well, Dumbledore can handle Harry; the question is, why the secrecy? It’s not actually necessary. You could actually have a lot more productive conversations, and even get into what Horcruxes are and how to destroy them, if Dumbledore would just be honest about this shit instead of playing these little games about, “Ooh, why don’t you go talk to the professor? See if he can give you the unredacted memory. Haha, hoo-hoo, chip-chip.” It’s like, “Really, dude?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It’s all a chess game.

Andrew: Yeah, I think Harry would totally lose focus if he knew the actual plan. Draco needing to kill Dumbledore; that just… Harry just lost Sirius and Cedric, and now he’s about to lose Dumbledore. He doesn’t know it yet; that would totally throw him off. So I could see why Dumbledore is withholding that information. It sucks, but I think of the two choices, this is the best one, to keep him in the dark.

Micah: It’s just unfortunate, though, that this is the way that he chooses to respond to Harry, where we haven’t necessarily seen this level of sternness from him all that much in the past. But it’s also the fact that Dumbledore is looking to get stuff done, and he’s got priorities, and the priority here is not to spend a lot of time talking about Draco and Snape; it’s to show Harry these memories and get him onto Slughorn’s tail to try and extract this memory. So he ends up reinforcing, Dumbledore does, his loyalty to Snape, and I did want to get you, Andrew, just to read one more quote, because this quote actually bothers me more than all the others do, because of the way that he delivers it to Harry and the way he plays it off. And it’s almost like you can sense a little bit of that Dumbledore from the days of old. This is the Dumbledore I would have expected to be cavorting with Grindelwald.

Andrew: This second quote? “Ah, Harry”?

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Ah, Harry, how often this happens, even between the best of friends! Each of us believes that what he has to say is much more important than anything the other might have to contribute!”

Laura: What I love here is what Dumbledore doesn’t say, which is “And what I have to contribute is way more important than what you have to contribute, so shut up.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, “Pipe down there.”

Andrew: But at least he called them best friends.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I feel like this is a trap, though. I’m not harping on Dumbledore, but it is kind of a trap, because when Harry rushes to then say, “Oh, I don’t think that what you have is unimportant,” Albus goes, “Too right! Now here we are. Let’s go on. Thank you, la-la.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: All right, well, we are actually going to go on and look at two brand new memories that we haven’t seen before, but we need to take a quick break, and we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Micah: All right, so two memories – sort of – for the price of one. And the first one has to do with… I guess first off I wanted to talk a little bit about Dumbledore reflecting on Tom Riddle’s time at Hogwarts. He says that Voldemort “was very guarded with me; he felt, I am sure, that in the thrill of discovering his true identity he had told me a little too much. […] he had the sense never to try and charm me as he charmed so many of my colleagues.”

Andrew: Yeah, Dumbledore is the only one at the school who has seen the real Tom Riddle. He was a witness to Tom’s thievery when he went to the orphanage, and he heard firsthand there at the orphanage that he was a troublemaker. So you can see why Dumbledore would never truly trust him like other professors ended up doing at Hogwarts. I think that’s why Tom didn’t bother with him, right? With trying to win over Dumbledore.

Laura: I do want to give a shout-out, though, to Thadwell in our Discord, who’s saying, “I think this is great insight into why he always feared Dumbledore… he’s been scared of him since he was a kid.”

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: “The only one he ever feared.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, setting that wardrobe on fire is pretty friggin’ terrifying, Dumbledore! Check your evil.

Andrew: And that’s your first introduction to magic? Yeah, I mean, you have to… this is the guy who brought you to Hogwarts. He kind of saved you and brought you into the world that you were supposed to be in all along, so you have to see why Tom would want to respect him and not be kicked out of Hogwarts by causing trouble in front of him.

Eric: Yeah, he owes Dumbledore one, almost.

Andrew: Yeah, kind of.

Micah: One other thing that Dumbledore also mentions to Harry is about Tom Riddle’s crew, the precursor to the Death Eaters. He says that “They were a motley collection; a mixture of the weak seeking protection, the ambitious seeking some shared glory, and the thuggish gravitating toward a leader who could show them more refined forms of cruelty.” And Dumbledore talks about how they were able to get away with so much during their time at Hogwarts – even the Chamber of Secrets gets a reference – but it’s like they can never fully blame Voldemort or his friends for any of it. And so I’m wondering, why couldn’t Dumbledore do more in the moment? Is this a hindsight is 20/20 situation, and looking back on it now with all the facts, it’s just easier to be like, “Yeah, I should have, but I didn’t”?

Laura: I think it is easier to connect the dots in retrospect. I think that’s always the case. I’m trying to think of real world examples, but just going kind of generally, I think especially in today’s day and age, when you look at people who are in positions of power because of the prevalence of social media and having an Internet presence that really kicked off starting with our age group, there are cases where people who hold certain positions of power maybe said or did things that were recorded, whether it was on their social media or on video or whatever, that is openly available for anyone to go and see today. And I mean, I’ve definitely seen commentary of a particular person like this who serves in the US government, who people look at those videos and those photos and things that he shared and posted on his own social media back in the day, and they’re like, “How did nobody see where this was going?” Again, I think it’s always a lot easier… yeah, hindsight is 20/20. I think it’s always easier to look back and say, “I should have done something different.”

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, who could have predicted he would have turned into this? But also, Dumbledore does say that he didn’t have much concrete evidence about what him and his friends were getting up to at Hogwarts.

Eric: Well, another sort of interesting angle I was thinking about when you were talking there, Laura, too, is that a lot of these qualities are actually valued, right? So in our society, we tend to value people like Tom Riddle, who are ambitious, may even put themselves above others, may even have little followers who gravitate toward them because they’re directionless or aimless and need that stronger character to centralize them, but the idea that they would just be the next Fortune 500 CEOs or private equity heads or tech bros, instead of the Death Eaters that they all became, is kind of how we groom them. It’s why Slughorn is Head of Slytherin House, is there’s this angle of… there is a legitimate networking thing that we have in our society, where tutelage and shacking up with people that are very much of one mind and ambitious turns into profit for those said people. And so to some extent, Dumbledore not only couldn’t have done more than what he did, but was simply allowing to continue on the typical social climbing of the students at Hogwarts.

Laura: Yeah. No, I think it’s such a great point to bring up that although it was insidious and evil, there was also nothing all that unusual going on, because it’s not like it would have been the first time in Hogwarts history for something like that to happen. I presume in every social setting you get some of this; you get people who manage to technically color inside the lines all the time, so you can’t really say anything or reprimand them for anything, but maybe the way that they’re coloring inside the lines is not ethical. Happens all the time.

Eric: All red crayons.

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: And I think it’s safe to assume that somebody like Tom Riddle wouldn’t have been overly sloppy in what he was doing…

Andrew: No.

Laura: Right.

Micah: … so the ability to tie him or his group of friends to any one incident was probably somewhat limited.

Andrew: That was probably part of the thrill for him, getting away with it successfully.

Micah: For sure.

Eric: Yeah, knowing that there were what Dumbledore characterizes those years as being, marked with a series of particularly nasty but unsolved instances… we know what Moaning Myrtle’s… what happened to Myrtle Warren. But I really wonder who the other victims were, what else happened that certainly is not on the same level as a murder, but which nonetheless people are talking about, but nobody who knows anything about it is talking.

Micah: We do start to get a sense for how Tom operated back in those days, and the first memory that we are taken into is back at the Gaunt home, and it’s of Tom Riddle approaching Morfin Gaunt. And one of the quotes that I pulled out that I thought was interesting is that “Harry could not help but feel a resentful admiration of Voldemort’s complete lack of fear.” So this is when he is approaching Morfin. And we all know Morfin is crazy, from the Bob Ogden memory, but Tom seems to have a very steady hand, very steady mind here, and I wanted to ask, do we think this admiration is Harry or Horcrux?

Andrew: I want to say not Horcrux, because I think if it were the case, we would see more times where Harry is admiring something that Voldemort has done, [laughs] and there’s been few times where that’s happened. I think Harry is just impressed by Tom Riddle being a man on a mission who… Micah, you just said Morfin is nuts, and he’s not intimidated by that.

Eric: Well, I mean, I too am impressed with Voldemort in this scene, because if you think about what we now know that he was doing there… I mean, within the confines of this chapter, he goes off, kills his dad and his dad’s parents both, in a mysterious way that’s the entire opening of Book 4, right, which we’ve already read – nobody knows how they did it – comes back, frames Morfin for that murder. He also, outside of the confines of this chapter, has made that murder that he just committed of his father the next Horcrux, his second ever Horcrux. So the Voldemort we’re seeing in this chapter is a Horcrux-making machine. He’s already done it; he’s going to do it again right now. Furthermore, this is the location where said Horcrux, the little ring, actually resides. He gets the trophy that he’s going to use in the same chapter that he imbues it with the magic, and we know the ring is also a Hallow? This is nuts! This is insane magic that we’re just finding out about, but Riddle already pretty darn well knows and is excellent at wielding.

Micah: Yeah, I think there’s no question that it’s impressive. It’s scary, for sure, that somebody so young is capable of doing all these things, but clearly it shows a level of understanding of magic that most his age would not have. I mean, as you said, Eric, the fact that he is able to put his uncle in such a state that he confesses himself to the crime – spends his remaining days in Azkaban as a result of that – goes and murders his remaining family… he doesn’t want any trace of his lineage; I think that’s also very clear.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: He’s looking to wipe out the Muggle side of his family, and I guess you could say his family altogether, right? Because of what he does to Morfin. He’s not being selective in any way.

Laura: Yeah. No, he definitely thinks he’s better than all of these people, even though he’s a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin courtesy of his mother.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: So it’s just interesting. But yeah, I don’t know. Maybe there’s some resentment there for the fact that he’s found out that his father is a Muggle, and so he thinks the whole lot of his remaining family needs to be wiped out for letting that happen. I don’t know.

Eric: His anti-Muggle prejudice surely would have reached an apex by now, and appears well formed. Yeah, can you guys imagine being related to someone famous, but it’s through your mom? Ew, gross!

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, especially when she went and did something like die. How dare she do something so weak and pathetic?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “And had me. How dare she?” Well, the thing I love from Dumbledore in this chapter is him talking about the reconstructed steps of young Tom Riddle poring over the shields in the trophy room and old dusty books of wizarding lineage. It was a rude awakening for Tom to find that his mother was the connection to the magical world, and it’s that connection that even brings him here and gives him sort of his entire destiny, is his collection, but he’s perfectly willing to be very proud of his relation to his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, but not anyone since. It’s like, “I see myself as Salazar Slytherin’s kid, basically. Everyone in between is just filler.”

Micah: Well, he’s the guy.

Eric: He’s the guy!

Micah: If you’re going to attach yourself to somebody, it might as well be the Head of Slytherin House, right? But the other thing that I thought was kind of interesting to draw a parallel to is when Morfin first sees him, he calls out the fact that he looks so much like Tom Riddle, Sr.

Eric: Except his eyes. He has his mother’s eyes.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, that’s where I was going, is that Harry always is told how much he looks like James.

Eric: It’s wild.

Andrew: Yeah, interesting parallel.

Eric: And on the Harry front… I mean, Harry has been in this position where he’s faced Voldemort. And Morfin we understand to be the more powerful wizard here, just because Tom is still only 16, despite what we said about how far he’s traveled. So the fact that Tom is fearless… Harry just remembers standing across the graveyard from real Voldemort, or standing across the Mirror of Erised from real Voldemort, and being actually terrified, actually scared, and the fact that Riddle is not scared at all when confronting this superior – on paper – wizard is why Harry admires him.

Andrew: I also want to give some accolades to Dumbledore, because he tries to clear Morfin’s name before he dies.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Seriously, I think that’s admirable. He didn’t have to do that. He was trying to get him out of Azkaban, but no, it was too late.

Laura: It’s justice.

Eric: Maybe he promises to clear his name in exchange for the memory.

Micah: That’s what I was going to say; he had to get something out of it.

Eric: I don’t know.

Andrew: Well, did he know he had a memory to be extracted from his brain? Morfin?

Micah: That’s what’s so interesting about this, is that the truth of what happened was buried so deep within Morfin’s mind, how Dumbledore even found out about this in the first place is the real question.

Eric: Well, it’s that extraordinary brainpower that he’s blessed with, you see.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Only someone with extraordinary brainpower could extract it. Well, here’s the thing, too: Yeah, I think it is admirable, though, that Dumbledore would have tried. We like to believe he would have done the same for Sirius if Lupin had ever confided in him the truth about Sirius Black’s arrest. But yeah, ultimately, how Dumbledore knew to look here, or how he achieved it… I misspoke last week; I thought it was Imperius. It’s not. It’s a false memory being planted. So already at age 16, Tom Riddle is doing more with memory more successfully than Slughorn, than adult Slughorn, is doing in this same chapter, with trying to manipulate a little bit of his own memory. Riddle planted a memory so convincing that Morfin thought he had done… remembered doing the murders. It’s insane.

Andrew: Yep.

Micah: Part of me thinks, though, that Morfin would be okay with taking the rap for this too.

Laura: He was.

Micah: Let’s not forget. Even though the memory is implanted within him.

Laura: He’s very… he brags about it. He’s happy, it seems, to serve a sentence for allegedly having done this.

Andrew: Was that maybe part of Tom Riddle’s plan too? He knew Morfin would be into this? It’s in his character?

Eric: Yeah, maybe. If he knew enough about him, I think, too… yeah, I think the memory has a better chance of taking if it aligns with who the person is, right? So Morfin…

Micah: I think he learned all he needed to in that five minutes of conversation about Morfin just by the way Morfin talked about the Riddle family. He’s like, “Yeah, this is my guy.” [laughs]

Eric: And yet there’s a sadness, or there’s a sort of sympathy I feel for Morfin when thinking about how… he was still prejudiced against the Muggles, and he hated Tom Riddle, Sr. maybe even in a way that defends or makes Merope look good, but didn’t act on it, didn’t do anything, and he was just sitting there wasting away just like Marvolo did in that shack before Voldemort showed up. What would the end of his life have looked like?

Micah: He probably would have wasted away, but he wasted away in Azkaban instead.

Andrew: Which is worse? I don’t know.

Eric: Margaritaville.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Wasting away in Margaritaville. Also, remember, kids: abstinence.

Micah: All right, so let’s talk about the second memory that Harry and Dumbledore jump into. It’s very brief by compar… actually, both of them are pretty short, but this one is probably… it’s the most important, apparently…

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: … but it’s also the briefest. And this was alluded to earlier, but we actually see Tom Riddle with the ring in this memory, so he’s already been busy making Horcruxes before he even asks Slughorn about them. And I think one of the biggest takeaways from this memory is we learn the real reason why Dumbledore has asked Slughorn to come back to Hogwarts this year, and in terms of trying to retrieve the actual memory – because this memory is clearly manipulated; it’s damaged – Harry poses to Dumbledore, “Well, what about Legilimency? What about Veritaserum?” But Dumbledore has actually already considered both of these options, and he’s thought better of it. He’d rather have Harry do the hard work.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s like, “I’m going to give you the most important memory of all time. Actually, it’s kind of a stub, like a ticket stub of a memory, and you have to do the hard work. You have to go… here, Harry, let’s go see a big, big blockbuster movie. Wait, no, you have to go out and film it.” Like, come on.

Andrew: But I think Dumbledore says that Slughorn will be expecting them, and I think that absolutely makes sense. And Slughorn can be a stubborn person; we saw this at the beginning of the book when he wasn’t so sure about going back to Hogwarts.

Eric: But look at what Dumbledore just did to Morfin.

Andrew: Slughorn is deeply embarrassed by the information, and ashamed by the information that he gave Tom Riddle back in the day, so he’s not going to let this information come out easily. I mean, he modified his memory to make sure that Dumbledore doesn’t see the truth. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but he did a crappy job. To me, that’s the sticking point, is Slughorn is a very accomplished wizard. I mean, Dumbledore literally, in this same conversation, is talking about how Slughorn is so good that he would see any attempts that Dumbledore had to manipulate this answer out of him coming. But he wasn’t good enough to do a half-decent job on modifying his memory? It just feels really hasty, I guess.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: I will say, I think there probably is an argument to be made for that still fitting within Slughorn’s character, because we do see how he gets when he’s flustered, right?

Micah: Or drunk.

Laura: So maybe he did this in a moment of urgency where he was really nervous, or…

Micah: That’s the question, though, is when? When was this memory extracted?

Laura: When did it happen, yeah.

Andrew: And also, did he think Dumbledore would not pry any further if he noticed that the memory was modified? Did he think Dumbledore was not going to notice? [laughs] That part’s silly too. But I do really love this plot line. I love that Slughorn messed with this memory because he’s too ashamed that he gave Tom Riddle this critical information. I love this stuff in the movie too.

Micah: I think the movie – speaking of the movie – did a much better job of this particular scene, because just the way that… to me, there was more lead-up to it. There was more conversation happening than what we get in this particular moment in the books. And we don’t hear the word “Horcruxes” in the movie; it’s muted.

Eric: Right, which explains or solves for the fact that Harry asks 0.00 followup questions in this chapter. The movie cleverly omits it.

Micah: Well, yeah, and I think it’s good that they did that, but we as readers have now been given this term that we’ve never heard before. Hermione has never heard it before.

Eric: I was going to say, Hermione will know! Let’s just ask her!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Harry, of course, asks her afterwards. But to me, I think it was clear back in Chamber of Secrets that Dumbledore knew it was Horcruxes. I think the reason why he wants this memory so badly is because he needs to know the number.

Andrew: Yes, that’s vital! You can see why Dumbledore calls this “The most important memory that I’ve collected.” You can’t win against Voldemort if you don’t know how many Horcruxes there are.

Eric: Yeah, because if there’s even one…

Micah: To Eric’s point, though… well, and I think… because why would you go after the ring if you didn’t suspect Horcruxes?

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: Right? And he’s already destroyed the ring.

Eric: So he knows what it was.

Micah: He knows, and he’s known… he may have had inkling back in Chamber of Secrets, but then I think he’s really started to put everything together.

Laura: I feel like we either get this… I think we get this a little later, but I think when Dumbledore starts to think it’s Horcruxes is after the climax of Chamber of Secrets when Harry explains the diary situation, and young Tom Riddle coming out of that. I think that’s when the wheels start turning.

Eric: Yeah, he tells Harry this, I think, at the end of the… yeah.

Micah: But I feel like even as far back as Sorcerer’s Stone that he said that there are ways that Voldemort could return, right? So it’s unclear.

Eric: I like this, and based on what the author has said since – I was looking this up a little bit too – but she referred to Quirrell and other creatures that have shared Voldemort, or a body for Voldemort, as like temporary Horcruxes. And then there’s whatever Harry is, how some of Voldemort brushed off and… it’s a big mess. It’s a big, big mess. But I do agree with Andrew that the number is important, and the number is the crucial bit of this memory. But I think we’re fooled as readers, or as Harry, into thinking that they’re important for another reason. I think if you left Dumbledore’s office when he says to, and didn’t ask any follow-up questions, you would assume Dumbledore doesn’t know what Horcruxes are. And even if Dumbledore doesn’t suspect Voldemort made any Horcruxes, he sure as shit knows what they are. He’s Dumbledore. And so the idea that you’re left thinking that Dumbledore doesn’t even know what the word means, and that’s why you’re going off to seek it from Slughorn, is a clever misdirection on Dumbledore’s part, I think, to, again, hide what he knows.

Micah: He should have asked. What prevented him from asking in that moment?

Eric: Yeah, it’s a good question.

Micah: Especially if he’s being tasked with going to extract this memory from Slughorn. He should know what it is.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, maybe he’s a little shaken up by how quick the memory was and doesn’t know what to make of it just yet.

Micah: Well, maybe everything we talked about at the front part of the conversation has kind of put him on guard a little bit. Dumbledore is testy.

Eric: That’s it, yeah. Every time he’s asked him a little thing, such as, “Sir, what happened to your hand?”, he’s been blown off! So something as simple as “What are Horcruxes?” seems so easy to say, but when you spend all year ignoring the child’s questions, Harry doesn’t have any hope he’s going to get the question answered. He just does what he’s told. He’s Dumbledore’s little puppet through and through.

Micah: All right, well, that wraps up our discussion of this chapter.


Odds & Ends


Micah: A couple of odds and ends that I wanted to call out, first being that Lestrange and Avery get name dropped during the Slug Club memory. So presumably it wasn’t just Tom Riddle who were members of the Slug Club back in the day; there were other to-be Death Eaters that were a part of that circle.

Eric: Couple of fellow silver foxes.

Andrew: I also mentioned this earlier, but I want to circle back to it real quick. So Fawkes was crying happy tears when Dumbledore is overwhelmed with pride in Harry.

Eric: Aw.

Andrew: There’s two moments in the chapter; they’re both really sweet. But I just want to also add that when stuff like this happens in media – a movie, a TV show, or book – these tender moments between two characters, one of them is going to die.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: They’re working in the last moments of love before one of them dies.

Eric: [laughs] Oh no!

Andrew: This always happens in storytelling.

Eric: I’m going to write the first story that doesn’t have that trope in it. You watch.

Andrew: Hmm, okay.

Eric: People are just going to talk about how much they love each other, and then they’re just going to live happy, full lives and love each other!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Nobody’s going to die!

Laura: Until they die, but yeah.

Eric: Until they die holding hands in love with each other, yes.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: We also learned about Fenrir Greyback in the previous chapter from Lupin, but Hermione ends up connecting the dots to him being the individual that Draco had threatened Burke with earlier on in Half-Blood Prince. Just another reason why Draco is up to no good, but no one believes Harry, or Harry is told to put it out of his mind. Everything’s under control. And then I did want to connect some threads. I borrowed this from Episode 405, but these are just too good not to repeat. So Chapter 17 of Chamber of Secrets is titled “The Heir of Slytherin,” and Chapter 17 of Half-Blood Prince is all about Tom Riddle.

Eric: Hey-o.

Micah: Harry confronts a younger version of Tom Riddle in both the chapters. Harry unknowingly destroys the first of Voldemort’s Horcruxes in Chapter 17 of Chamber of Secrets, and learns the word “Horcrux” in Chapter 17 of Half-Blood Prince. Chapter 17 of Half-Blood Prince begins with, and Chapter 17 of Chamber of Secrets concludes in, McGonagall’s office. And we were just talking about this: Fawkes makes an appearance in both chapters. You could argue Harry’s loyalty to Dumbledore causes a reaction from the phoenix in both chapters.

Andrew: Ooh, I love it.

Eric: I love that so much.

Andrew: I’d say well done, Micah, but you just copy and pasted it from another doc. But maybe Micah in the past did this too, so good job.

Micah: I think I actually planned that episode too, so…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay. Wow, that’s another thread.

Laura: Thanks, past Micah.

Micah: I’m plagiarizing myself. [laughs]

Andrew: But that’s another thread; you planned both of these episodes about this chapter. That’s amazing.

Eric: Oh! Amazing.

Micah: There we go.


Superlative of the Week


Micah: All right, it’s time now for our MVP. So Dumbledore claims that the sluggish memory is the most important he has collected. Which memory do we feel is the most valuable he’s collected to date?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: Like I said earlier, there’s no hunt for Horcruxes without knowing how many he has to seek out. So Dumbledore’s man through and through, Andrew will agree with Dumbledore that this is the most important.

Eric: The one about the Gaunts and the Gaunt shack, Bob Ogden’s memory, is not just a personal favorite, but that means that it’s the superior one for me. You just get your whole cast of characters, you learn their deal and what they’re about, and so I think that one is the most important.

Micah: I’m going to agree with Eric.

Andrew and Laura: Okay.

Laura: So I do agree with Andrew; I’ve got to agree with Albus here that this is the most important. But if I had to pick a runner-up, it would definitely be Tom Riddle’s origin story in the orphanage.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: I think we still have at least one more to go, right? With Hepzibah Smith?

Eric: Yeah, and… yeah, at least one.


Lynx Line


Micah: All right, time now for our Lynx Line question of the week. So we asked our Slug Club members over on Patreon – appropriate for this chapter – you just learned to Apparate; where’s the first place you’re going and why?

Andrew: We got some really wholesome answers this time. Not much funny business happening. I thought it was very sweet.

Micah: Aww. I should have said wrong answers only.

Eric: Funkytown.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Marta said,

“This is easy! I live in New Zealand, which is almost exactly on the opposite side of the globe from my home country, Poland. I would Apparate back and forth to see my family and old friends. I’d also take my kids and Muggle partner for a side-along Apparition. Yes, I’ve been with a non-Harry Potter fan for years!”

Eric: Oh my goodness.

Andrew: I like that you call them a Muggle.

Eric: [laughs] Julie Ann says, “Thailand. I want to go so badly (but furchild needs to come with side-along Apparition as we’re inseparable).” Aw, taking your pet to Thailand. I love it.

Micah: Glo said, “I live out in the country, so I would Apparate to the ‘big’ city nearby to enjoy the nightlife!”

Laura: Betty says, “The grand Cayman Islands, every single time. Because it’s so beautiful and relaxing and there is nowhere I’d rather be than Seven Mile Beach!”

Andrew: Mariah said, “New Zealand to see the Southern Lights (like Northern Lights but in the Southern hemisphere).”

Eric: Zachary says, “I’m taking my wife by way of side-along Apparition to Puerto Rico to visit her grandfather and family, and of course the fiestas patronales.”

Micah: Shannon said,

“I’m Apparating to work and back home at the end of the day. I know that sounds boring, but it would save me an hour and a half + in commute times daily, which I could use to spend time with my family, play outside with my kid before it gets dark, and maybe even sleep in a little in the mornings.”

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: I like that, actually. I’m with Shannon.

Eric: Yeah, that’s great. Very practical.

Laura: And Carly rounds this out by saying, “I’d Apparate to visit my favorite person, my grandpa, as often as possible. I’m lucky to still have him but can’t travel to see him as often as I want to because he’s several hours away.” That’s so sweet.

Andrew: That’s very thoughtful. Well, thanks to everybody who contributed to the Lynx Line question this week. Slug Club level supporters can answer the question every week at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can send an email or send a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via the Spotify comments, or the YouTube comments, or slide into our DMS on social media. And next week, we’ll discuss Chapter 18 of Half-Blood Prince, “Birthday Surprises.” Don’t forget to visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, episode analysis – we’ve started writing think pieces recently – and lots more.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question: In Chapter 16 of Book 6, Molly Weasley jams to a Christmas-themed music special on the radio. In what year did the Muggle equivalent of Celestina Warbeck’s Christmas hits, i.e. Mariah Carey’s “All I Want For Christmas Is You,” debut? It was 1994. And as a bonus, we asked people what year of Harry’s was that at Hogwarts, and the correct answer was 4. Everybody who guessed the correct answer did know that, and 62% of people overall with the correct answer said they didn’t look it up, so they know their Mariah Carey. And this week’s winners I have a PSA for later, but here they are: Cynessa Callback Ping; Eden Elmendorf; Emerald Fox; Fiery Girl; Hi Tofu Tom; I Miss You, Count Ravioli; I’ll Be Micah’s Fantasy…

Laura: Oooh.

Eric: [laughs] … It was a fairy; Jace PJ; Phineas Nigellus Black; 90s Kids Rise Up; Finty; Patronus Seeker; QuidWitch; and Vincent Lee. Here’s the PSA: Quizzitch answers and names are not personal ads, everyone.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Save your “Micah’s Fantasy” entries for… just slide into his DMs! He’s on every social platform. And “I Miss You, Count Ravioli”? We all do. We don’t know where Count Ravioli is.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I’ve been saying this forever, that these names have gotten totally out of control, and we’ve got to rein it in.

Eric: I know. We secretly love it.

Laura: Yeah, why are you trying to ruin people’s fun?

Eric: I’m not; I’m trying to get people to react to this thought that I’m trying to ruin people’s fun. It’s rage bait.

Laura: I see. No, I was more referring to Andrew.

Andrew: Oh. Because I’m a grump. I don’t know.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “Who’s got time for this? It’s the end of the episode. Let’s wrap her up.”

Andrew: Right, that’s what I’m thinking. [laughs]

Eric: No, seriously. Here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: While in this chapter, Lord Voldemort commits patricide by killing Tom Riddle, Sr. What is the broader term used when someone kills a near relative of theirs, such as a grandparent?

Micah: Unplugging?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: How unpleasant. “Unplugging.”

Eric: Wow. That’s not it, but that made me chuckle inside. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website. [laughs] “Unplugging,” oh my God. MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, and if you’re on the website, maybe checking out transcripts, the must listens page, or our new episode summaries and thought pieces, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Well, it’s time to unplug this episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: [laughs] Euthanize it! I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #740

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #740, The Harry Potter TV Show Is Fixing the Ravenclaw Problem


Cold Open


Micah: Do the vampires in the Harry Potter series have to be hot?

Andrew: No, no, no. They don’t have to.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean, the Dursleys are hot, so why not?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: What if the Dursleys are hot vampires? What a twist that would be.

Andrew and Laura: Oooh.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter trio this week, talking about the books and the movies, and this week, focusing on the upcoming HBO Max TV show. So make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app, and you’ll never miss one of these new monthly episodes of MuggleCast, in which we’re focused on the Harry Potter TV show.

Micah: I was going to ask, Andrew; you mentioned trio… who is who?

Andrew: I’ll go ahead and be Ron. You can be Harry if you want, Micah.

Micah: Well, Laura, do you have a choice?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: No, I think we already… when we tried to do this take the first time, it seems like I end up being Hermione because I’m a girl.

Micah: I’ll take Hermione if you want to be Harry.

Laura: Oh, I don’t want to be Harry. That sounds awful. Are you kidding me?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Who do you want to be then? Ron?

Laura: I’ll be Ron.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Ron doesn’t get enough love, man. I’ll be Ron.

Andrew: Okay, so Micah is Hermione, Laura is Ron, and I’m Harry. There we go. That sounds good. Cool.

Laura: Perfect.

Micah: Works out.

Andrew: Well, we have lots of new segments today, and we’ll have lots of coverage of the Harry Potter TV show this and every month going forward, but first of all, just want to let everybody know that your financial support of MuggleCast will help us continue to cover the Harry Potter TV show for years and years to come. HBO seems to have big things planned for this show, as we’ll talk about today, and we believe this television adaptation is going to be a really special treat for Harry Potter fans, and we want to be there with you all through it. So by pledging to our Patreon, we’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of MuggleCast, ad-free episodes of the show, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout where we’ve been talking about the Harry Potter show quite a bit with your fellow listeners, and there will be many more perks available to you on Patreon. We are going to record a new bonus MuggleCast this week. Laura, what are we going to be doing?

Laura: So just to keep the hype train going around talking about the TV show, we’re actually going to do a bonus that is centered all around TV show predictions. So we’re going to be doing some predictions specifically around Season 1 of the show, but we’re also going to talk about future seasons. We’re going to be asking questions like, “Will Season 1 use ‘Philosopher’ for all audiences? Or will they do multiple American-centric takes using ‘Sorcerer’?”

Andrew: [laughs] Place your bets. Place your bets. We’re going to have a fun prediction-centric episode of bonus MuggleCast, and that’ll be fun to look back on in a year or so.

Laura: Yeah. Are we actually going to put money down? It could be fun if we wanted to put money down in the bonus.

Andrew: Sure, sure.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: $20?

Laura: As, like, the limit? Or…?

Andrew: Oh, you want to bet more? No, just a flat $20…

Laura: Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. I think that’s fair.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But like, maybe you have to spread your $20 out amongst all the predictions.

Andrew: Okay, yeah.

Laura: Right? There we go.

Micah: I was going to say just use the Patreon money to bet.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, that’s irresponsible.

Micah: Oh, is it?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And we are very responsible here at this show.

Micah: We are.

Andrew: Definitely.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So listeners can look forward to that. And there are other great ways to support us, to help us run this independent podcast. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and more. Thanks, everybody.


News


Andrew: And with that, let’s get into it. So like I said, we’re going to have different segments that we rotate out with each episode of MuggleCast that’s focused on the TV show, but in classic MuggleCast fashion, let’s start with the latest news about the show. Filming on Season 1 – meaning Book 1 – is reportedly nearing its end, and one fun element of the filming process thus far for onlookers is that we’ve been treated to a bunch of paparazzi photos. We’ve talked about a bunch of photos in the past. We’ve seen the Dursleys filming; we’ve seen Dumbledore on a beach for some reason. And in more recent weeks, they have been building what looks like Hogwarts-focused sets, and people have noticed that there are Hogwarts House animal hedges in the Hogwarts courtyard. Now, two things about this: First of all, I find it very cute that these giant hedges with each Hogwarts House animal – they look pretty big, right? – are in the Hogwarts courtyard. That’s pretty cool; it almost looks like they could be bigger than the children. And then Laura and Micah, you will be thrilled to know that Ravenclaw’s symbol appears to be an eagle in the series.

Micah: It’s about time.

Laura: Finally, somebody got it right, and it’s WB on their second try.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: It’s been a raven in the movies and the merchandise, right?

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Okay. All right.

Micah: In fairness, though, it is called Ravenclaw, so I could see how that might have tripped up some folks initially when they were planning for the series. But when you have the author right there to be able to correct you, it does feel like a little bit of a miss.

Laura: No, this is really cool. I mean, and this is kind of me just putting my own… because I love scary stuff. The House-themed hedges are just giving me Shining vibes, like Stephen King.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I love that we’re talking about grass to start.

Andrew: [laughs] Aren’t you excited about grass?

Laura: Yeah. What better topic?

Andrew: I think it’s cool! I thought it was a pleasant surprise.

Micah: So I did have a question for you both about these hedges, this shrubbery: Do we think it’s going to be magical? Do we think it’s going to interact with the students at all?

Andrew: [gasps] Ohh.

Laura: Right. Is the lion going to roar? Is the eagle going to caw?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I thought you were going to say cough.

Laura: No, I hope not.

Micah: The eagle looks like it could be a bit of a snitch, because it’s perched and it can see everything that’s going on.

Andrew: It is… well, maybe to your point, Micah… I was wondering, “Okay, it’s a bird, so that’s why it would be up on a ledge.” But then I was thinking, “Why is only that one up there? Maybe because there is going to be some movement.” I think that is a cool call-out, though. Sort of like how the Whomping Willow kind of comes to life, these Hogwarts House animal hedges might come to life too. I like it.

Micah: So actually, to just build off of what you said about the eagle being perched up there, wasn’t there something about Ravenclaw tower and how it was positioned so that it looked down on the rest of the school, because Ravenclaws think that they’re better than everybody else because they’re so smart?

Laura: Yeah, up in their ivory tower, if you will.

Andrew: Whoa, really? Oh, okay. That’s a nice touch too. Let’s assume that’s the thought they’re putting into this. [laughs] That’s what’s happening with those photos, but then there were more photos, and I just wanted to call out there’s paparazzi photos, like aerial photos. Unfortunately, I haven’t flown my drone over these sets yet; I need to get over there and do that.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: But there’s aerial photos of the Hogwarts greenhouses – speaking of shrubbery – and I just wanted to say that the greenhouse, to me, looks like it drew inspiration from the Hogwarts Legacy design?

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Was that your takeaway, too? And I love that. I love the design of Hogwarts and the surrounding area in that video game, and if that’s their new design style for everything, I’m going to be pretty pleased by that. It is different from the Harry Potter movies in a more… mature way, I want to say?

Laura: Yeah, I totally agree, and I think it also just feels more like Hogwarts. I remember one of my… people are probably going to roll their eyes when I say this, but one of my big critiques of the first two movies is that Hogwarts felt like Hogwarts, but the grounds didn’t really feel like Hogwarts. It’s like they’re supposed to be in the Scottish Highlands, and everything’s flat and even and far too sunny, I felt, and it wasn’t really until we started getting into the third movie and onward where it really felt like the terrain and the overall environment felt like Hogwarts. So I agree; I think the environment that was established in Hogwarts Legacy definitely knocked it out of the park, and I agree it feels like they’re taking their cues from that for this set design, which is great.

Micah: Right. Why would you not, though? It’s been built in such a really fantastic way by the team that put together Hogwarts Legacy that I think it would be a miss on their part not to leverage some of the design. And I’m trying to remember back to Chamber of Secrets. We do get an exterior shot of the greenhouses, I think, when they’re first with the mandrakes, but I’m also trying to think back to when I went to the Studio Tour, and what it was like to walk through the greenhouses, because that is one of the parts of the tour that you do get to go on as a visitor. But overall, I mean, in the movies, we don’t really see them a whole lot. We see them again in Half-Blood Prince with Slughorn, but that’s only when he’s trying to steal some Venomous Tentacula.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s this month in paparazzi photos. Now it’s time for this month in, “Oh, wow, this show is really going to give us more than the movies or even the books.” Lox Pratt, who is playing Draco, says we’ll be seeing Draco at his house in the first season, and that we’ll be seeing the teachers in their “little rooms.” Quoting him more now:

“I think with this adaptation, you get to see so much more than the books. [The books] are very much over Harry’s shoulder, which is great, and that’s how they played the film as well. And I think [the creators of the series] have been audible about this in their interviews, there’s just so much more that you get to see. You get to see all the teachers in their little rooms. You get to see Draco at home. I won’t spoil too much about that, but there are some brilliant scenes at home where you start to get an insight into how he is.

In the films, Draco is sort of 2-D; he is the sneery villain. I feel like there’s so much more – you need to understand why. And you see little glints of it in the film with Lucius and stuff.”

Laura: I love this.

Andrew: Same.

Laura: Oh my God. Well, it just… it’s going to set the Draco arc up to be a lot more satisfying, I think, because he is right. In the movies, Draco is pretty 2-D until we get to Half-Blood Prince, and all of a sudden he has this deep emotional complexity that seems like it’s come out of nowhere. So yeah, this is really going to help, I think, build on that, to make it more believable for audiences.

Andrew: And we talk often about how the show is going to give us way more than the movies, but we haven’t really considered that the show might give us more than even the books did. This is an example of how they’re really going to be opening up the world.

Micah: Right. Because we don’t see Malfoy Manor until… Deathly Hallows?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: So this is an opportunity for us to go there and to see how Draco is being raised early on in his childhood. Presumably, we’re just going to see his father, from the sound of it, but maybe we see Narcissa as well. This would also explain why they cast Lucius Malfoy early on.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: So that’s what Lox Pratt had to say. Meanwhile, Nick Frost, who is playing Hagrid, says he manifested getting the role of Hagrid by writing “Hagrid” 7,000 times while watching the movies. He said, “Before I was cast as Hagrid, my partner suggested trying to manifest it. So last Christmas, I watched all the films back to back on the Sky Harry Potter channel.” That’s a UK channel that plays just the Harry Potter movies and nothing else, which I did not know existed.

Laura: [laughs] I didn’t know that existed.

Andrew: Sounds pretty cool. So he was watching that while writing out the word “Hagrid” 7,000 times, so here’s an example of maybe manifesting actually working. But more notably, he said he had been learning to knit, because Hagrid does.

“Frost also revealed we’d see Hagrid knitting in the series, and that he had recently taken lessons to learn how. Hagrid does indeed knit in the first Harry Potter book, when he and Harry take the train to London and the half-giant is described as ‘knitting what looked like a canary-yellow circus tent’ to pass the time.”

Pretty cool! I mean, this is just another example of how they’re really focusing on the little things.

Laura: Yeah, well, and I just want to call out, I think, the numerical significance here: 7,000.

[Andrew gasps]

Laura: Seven wasn’t enough; it was “We’ve got to do times 1,000.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Really double down on that magic number seven.

Andrew: At what point does his hand start to cramp? I want to know, because that sounds very tedious.

Micah: That’s a lot. But I do love the fact that Nick Frost is willing to go the extra mile here and step into the character a little bit more.

Andrew: Yeah, and actually learn to knit. I want to share one more quote from him. When that initial official photo came out of him as Hagrid, a lot of people were saying he looks just like Robbie Coltrane’s Hagrid, which is true, and there was debate at that time around “Well, why are they redoing this series if all the characters are even going to look exactly the same?” Nick Frost wasn’t asked about that debate in particular, but he did say, “While I’m really aware of what went before me in terms of Robbie [Coltrane]’s amazing performance, I’m never going to try and be Robbie. I’m going to try and do something, not ‘different,’ I think you have to be respectful to the subject matter, but within that, there’s scope for minutiae.” So he’s aware that people don’t just want a clone of Robbie Coltrane, and that’s good.

Micah: I think I was probably one of those people who commented that about how he looked so much like Robbie Coltrane as Hagrid, but there’s also the reality that I think they adapted Hagrid very well in the movies, and so there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, I’m sure there’s going to be things, as we see here with his knitting, that he’s going to bring to the table that Robbie just didn’t, and that’s okay.

Andrew: [laughs] The knitting will be unbelievable, unlike any knitting Robbie Coltrane ever did.

[Micah laughs]


Max That


Andrew: Next up, listeners know that we’ve had a long-running segment on the show called “Max that.” We’re rereading the Harry Potter books right now, and when we get to a moment that we see and enjoy in the books, we say “Max that” because we want to see it finally adapted. So we’re going to kind of expand this segment in these monthly Harry Potter TV show-focused episodes, and look at maybe an idea, abstract or not, that the movies or the books did not include, but that you would like to see more of in the show. I want to start by talking about vampires. They’re in the books, but they’re not in the movies. I mentioned this on MuggleCast a couple of weeks ago. They actually get mentioned 26 times across the Harry Potter books.

Laura: Wow.

Andrew: I brought up the digital complete set, and I typed in “vampire,” and it came up 26 times. They come up during mentions of Lockhart’s Voyages with Vampires book, which is in Chamber of Secrets, and there is a vampire essay that the kids have to do for Lupin in Prisoner of Azkaban. But we don’t get much lore in the books. They were seemingly scrapped from the movies; they get as many appearances as Peeves. But I want to consider this idea for the TV show, because I think it would open up this wider world of wizarding folklore, and it could also create this allegory for minority oppression. And while doing some research today, Rowling actually did some writing about vampires in a four-part Daily Prophet newsletter series that was sent to members of the official Harry Potter Fan Club in the UK between the years 1998 and 1999. I never knew this existed. [laughs]

Laura: Me neither.

Andrew: But she was writing stuff for her fan club. Pretty cool. So she wrote about a Society for the Tolerance of Vampires, and you can assume, based on that name, that it “must have campaigned for greater acceptance of vampires and their culture in the magical world. The wizarding world also set guidelines to prevent exterminating vampires outright.” And as I mentioned, vampires were studied in the Harry Potter series for a few years. What do you two think? Vampires in the Harry Potter TV show? Would you like to see them?

Laura: Yeah, I think so. I think, like you said, it only serves to deepen and expand the lore and the world. I don’t know necessarily that they would have a whole storyline built out around them. I mean, they could; that would be interesting. But for the 26 times they get mentioned in the books, there’s no meaningful representation of a vampire character. The only one we really get to see from Harry’s POV is Sanguini, right, in Book 6, and that’s a passing moment where he’s low-key drifting towards all the teenage girls in the room, which is definitely very Bram Stoker, if you’re thinking about that particular portrayal of vampires. So I think it could be interesting to see more about how do vampires in this world work, right? Because it seems like, in the books, the very little we’ve seen, seems like it’s a pretty traditional vampire portrayal, so it’d be interesting to see if they want to go down that path. I don’t expect them to try and make the vampires sparkle or anything like that.

Andrew: [laughs] You don’t want them Twilight style?

Laura: No, I don’t think so.

Micah: Well, Stephenie Meyer was a big Harry Potter fan, wasn’t she?

Andrew: I think so.

Micah: She was on MuggleCast at one point.

Andrew: Oh, God, I forgot about that. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, she didn’t want to be on our Twilight podcast, but she wanted to be on our Harry Potter podcast. [laughs]

Micah: She wanted to go where the numbers were.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: I think she wanted to reach out to Harry Potter fans who weren’t familiar with Twilight.

Micah: Ah, there you go.

Laura: That’s the PR answer.

Andrew: Oh, Mev is bringing up that Harry kind of knows Edward too, since Robert Pattinson played Edward and Cedric. [laughs]

Micah: Oh, that’s true. I like this. This was a part of the world that was never really fully explored. I think looking at that piece that you said that she shared with the official Harry Potter Fan Club, it gave me a lot of vibes about werewolves, which I think is the direction she ultimately maybe went with this. I’m just thinking about Lupin and his character and how werewolves are this maligned group of individuals. And then the Society for the Tolerance of Vampires gives me SPEW vibes, so I’m wondering if she took some of these elements and applied them to other groups within the Harry Potter community. I know there was that theory for a long time running that Snape was a vampire. I think he’s referred to as vampire-like early on in the series.

Andrew: I think so, yeah.

Micah: So it’d be cool to have a few more pop up. Why not?

Andrew: Yeah, I think it would add a horror aspect to the series, which I think a lot of people would appreciate. That’s a very popular genre. And also, I’m being a little selfish here, because – we alluded to this a couple minutes ago – Laura and I, we used to run a Twilight fansite and podcast. Vampires, for a good 10-15 years, were hot.

Micah: Well, that’s what I was going to ask you: Do the vampires in the Harry Potter series have to be hot?

Andrew: No, no, no. They don’t have to.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean, the Dursleys are hot, so why not?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: What if the Dursleys are hot vampires? What a twist that would be.

Andrew and Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: I think vampires are just inherently hot, but that’s a discussion for another day. So I just… vampires have a soft spot in my heart, because I love True Blood; I love Twilight. I’d love to see them make a bit of a comeback through the Harry Potter series.

Laura: Yeah, I think vampires would love to make a soft spot in your heart, too, so it works out really well.

Andrew: [laughs] Eugh. All right, well, listeners, let us know what you think. Vampires in the Harry Potter TV series? Let us know.


Game: Was this line in the Sorcerer’s Stone book AND movie?


Andrew: So I have a bit of a mini-game for everybody now: Was this line in the Sorcerer’s Stone book AND movie? So this is going to be a challenge where you just have to answer if this line appeared in both, and we’re looking for exact matches here. With a loyal adaptation being so important for this show and for fans, let’s see what did or didn’t make it into the movie, and obviously should now make it into the show. So first one… this is from Ron. “Whew, made it. Can you imagine the look on old McGonagall’s face if we were late?” Was this in the book and movie?

Micah: It feels like it’s… go ahead, Laura.

Laura: I feel like it was in the movie.

Micah: It was, because she turns into the cat right after. Or sorry, she turns from the cat into Professor McGonagall after he says this in the movie, if I’m remembering correctly. But I don’t know if it was in the book. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I can’t remember.

Andrew: So do you want to say just movie, then?

Laura: Yeah, I’ll go with just movie.

Micah: Yeah, same.

Andrew: That is correct. Yeah, just in the movie. But I included this one because I thought this was a really fun scene in the movie.

Laura: It was.

Andrew: All right, next one, from Dumbledore: “It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live.” Was this in the book and movie?

Laura and Micah: Yes.

Andrew: Yes, that is correct. In the book and movie. And it better be in the show! The Mirror of Erised scene, of course.

Laura: That’s a pretty iconic moment. I think it’ll be in the show.

Andrew: All right, and lastly, this one from Snape: “I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death – if you aren’t as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach.”

Micah: So he does say this in the book. I think it gets cut in the movie where he just says the first part of it.

Laura: I think you’re right.

Micah: I don’t think he says “dunderheads” in the movie.

Laura: No, he doesn’t.

Andrew: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. Yeah, the first half is in the movie, but not the book. But I say bring back “dunderheads.” Bring back that little insult. All right, well, that’s how we play “Was this line in Sorcerer’s Stone the book AND movie?”


Lynx Line


Andrew: Now it’s time for a recurring segment on MuggleCast episodes, the Lynx Line! This is like a place your bets edition. So who will be the first character to appear on screen in the Harry Potter TV show? Appear on screen; not the first character you hear, because it’s possible they’ll just have some sort of voiceover. So who will be the first to appear? We asked our MuggleCast patrons to place their bets. Jen said,

“I’m thinking Voldemort hidden under a cloak sneaking into the Potters’. We will get the James and Lily scenes without ever seeing his face. Then bang, we get the reveal of who is playing Voldy right as his spell rebounds off baby Harry.”

Laura: Ooh, that would be hype.

Micah: I like that. Rachel, Kyle, Julie Ann, and Glo all think it’s going to be Hot Vernon.

Andrew: Just like in the books.

Micah: Not just Vernon. Hot Vernon.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Is this sweaty, dripping because it’s summertime Vernon, or no, this is glow-up Vernon?

Laura: No, I think it’s aesthetically pleasing glow-up Vernon.

Andrew: Yeah, agree.

Micah: Okay.

Laura: Darin says, “I think it will be Snape… we will have a small flashback of him telling Voldemort about the prophecy.” And we also got others sending in similar versions of this answer. A couple people thought we’d see Trelawney saying the prophecy in front of Dumbledore. Honestly, this is kind of what I hope it is.

Andrew: Me too. I want them to do something different than what we got in the movies. And now, the movies don’t open up with Hot Vernon, but I just think they need to give us something really good and unique from the outset to say, “Welcome to the TV show. We’re going to do things different than the movies. This is why you are going to watch, because we’re doing things different.”

Micah: Totally. That’s been my kind of longstanding prediction about the opening of the show, is that I want it to be the prophecy. I want it to be Snape overhearing Trelawney and Dumbledore inside the Hog’s Head. Maybe the first person we see is Aberforth, just shining a glass down in the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Sure, sure. That would be random, but all right.

Micah: That would be too random.

Andrew: But you would love it, Micah, and that’s what really matters. Micah is a big Aberforth fan.

Micah: And I think… here’s the thing, right? You can make it such that you don’t reveal that it’s Snape, because I understand it’s early in the series and you don’t want that piece of information maybe getting out to people who are watching the show who don’t know the story, so you can just keep them as this cloaked, hooded individual that’s listening at the door.

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: Well, carrying on here. Manda said,

“Wild theory, but what if we start from Voldemort’s perspective? I don’t think we have a Voldemort cast yet, but that’s fine because who we really see first is Snape begging Voldemort to spare Lily.”

Micah: I think we do, don’t we? Didn’t Ralph Fiennes let it slip?

Andrew: There’s a rumor.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s still a rumor.

Andrew: My theory is that he saw that rumor online and took it to be fact, but maybe I’m wrong.

Micah: Oh, okay. Maybe. We’ll see. Megan said,

“I think it will be James, Lily, and Harry right before Voldy shows up. Imagine we’re shown them as a super happy and loving family, and then BAM, suddenly that’s ripped away and we’re all left devastated.”

Andrew: Oh, man, that’s a dark opening. But it’s possible.

Laura: Well, for a lighter suggestion, Eleanor rounds us out by saying,

“I’m going with Dumbledore. And if not Dumbledore, then it’ll be Harry. I can’t see them starting with Vernon and the Muggle world. That’ll be a flashback. They’ll start with Dumbledore at Privet Drive, or Dumbledore and Flamel with the Philosopher’s Stone, or they’ll go back to All Hallow’s Eve 1981 and establish Harry as a baby with his parents.”

Andrew: Aww. All right, well, thanks to everybody who participated. There are more answers on our Patreon submitted by supporters. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can support us. So that is our TV show coverage for today, but coming up on future TV-focused episodes – and remember, we’re going to be releasing these once a month – we’ll be doing topics and segments like, will the Cursed Child canon be worked into the TV show? Will Pottermore content be worked in? Changes the movies made to the books that the show must keep in, what our biggest fears about the show are, more of the segments we ran through today, major breaking news coverage as it happens – of course, we’ll be all over the first trailer and any other major first looks that we get – and more of what you heard on today’s episode. In the meantime, give us your feedback about today’s episode. Let us know what you’d like us to discuss as it pertains to the TV show, and we might incorporate it in the future. You can email MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also send a voice memo to that same email address. You can also reach out via Spotify or YouTube or via social media; slide into our DMS. And next week, we will return to Chapter by Chapter. You can visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And that’s it! We’re expecting the TV show to premiere in early 2027, and we’ll be with you in the lead-up and during and after.

Micah: When do we think we will get our first trailer?

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: I mean, fall?

Andrew: Fall?

Micah: Back to Hogwarts?

Laura: Yeah, back to Hogwarts season.

Micah: I like that.

Andrew: September 1 makes sense.

Laura: That would be really cool.

Andrew: That’ll be about four or five months away from the show premiere? I don’t know, maybe that is too early? I don’t know.

Laura: They could do a teaser where it’s like they’re not really showing much of anything, and then we get a full trailer in November, around the holidays.

Andrew: Yeah, at least some photos.

Micah: Barry says Halloween. That’s another good option.

Andrew: Well, we will just have to wait and see. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: See y’all next week! Bye!

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #739

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #739, Subtle As A Freight Train (HBP Chapter 16, ‘A Very Frosty Christmas’)


Cold Open


Martha: Did Ron even get something for Lavender? That’s what’s really heartbreaking here.

Laura: My headcanon is that he did not.

Andrew: He says in the chapter, “We don’t do much talking; we just do snogging.” That’s his gift to Lavender. It’s more kissing.

Eric: His presence is enough of a present for her, okay?

Martha: Yeah, he probably gave her a paper coupon for a five-minute make-out session.

[Alice and Andrew laugh]


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app and you will never miss an episode. And this week, bundle up for some social iciness, because we’re discussing Chapter 16 of Half-Blood Prince, “A Very Frosty Christmas.” And this week we have two guests joining us, Martha and Alice, from the Harry Potter podcast “The Real Weird Sisters.” Hi to both of you.

Alice Asleson: Hi, I’m Alice. [at the same time as Martha]

Martha Krebill: Hi, I’m Martha. [at the same time as Alice]

Andrew: [laughs] Perfect.

Alice: And I’m Alice. We’ll just talk at the same time.

[Everyone laughs]

Martha: That’s how we do it on our podcast; we talk at the exact same time. Thank you guys so much for having us.

Eric: Yeah, you guys are sisters in real life, right?

Alice and Martha: We are.

Martha: If I took my glasses off, you’d be able to tell better.

Alice: Yeah, we’re real, and we’re weird, and we’re also real weird.

Andrew: Okay.

Martha: We’re also real weird sisters.

Alice: Yes.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: How long have you two been doing the Real Weird Sisters podcast?

Alice: So we started the podcast almost ten years ago, 2016. It was April, so we’re almost at our ten-year anniversary now.

Eric: Wow!

Andrew: Oh, congrats!

Laura: Congrats.

Andrew: That’s exciting.

Alice: Thanks. Yeah, we’re not quite to the level of MuggleCast, but we’re getting there.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Ah, you’ll get there. You’ll get there.

[Alice and Martha laugh]

Andrew: But you two do something that maybe we’re going to have to do one day…

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: … you go page by page through the Harry Potter books? Tell us about that.

Laura: Whoa.

Martha: That’s what we’re doing now. We started out as a book club, and of course, that took us four years to get through the 200 chapters, and then we kind of figured out what to do next. We started doing character studies for a while. We did take fives, which is where we talk about the movies five minutes at a time. And then now we’ve branched out even more; we’re doing one page at a time, and the way that we do that is we roll the dice for what book we’re going to do. We have a D7… well, actually, I roll a D8, and if I get eight, then we reroll.

[Eric laughs]

Martha: And then we roll the rest of the dice to see what the digits are for the page number that we’re going to discuss the next week, and it’s very goofy, but it’s very fun.

Andrew: That is a really cool idea.

Laura: That is fun.

Andrew: That’s such a cool idea. Yeah, so it’s random. It’s random each time.

Alice: It is pretty random, yeah.

Martha: Somehow we’ve gotten a lot of threes. I don’t know why, but…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There’s always that one number that just crops up more often when rolling die.

Martha: Exactly.

Andrew: And I’ve listened to a couple episodes of your show, and I’ve heard some impressions of the characters, so I invite you to do those impressions on this podcast as well. We love impressions here. Which of you did McGonagall?

Alice: Martha does all the character voices, and I only do Jim Dale as the narrator on the page.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Eric: Okay, this is going to be great.

Alice: Martha is pretty good at her characters, and I don’t even really attempt them.

Andrew: Okay, okay.

Martha: Alice does do a pretty good Fleur, and she’s in this chapter, so I think that might have to come out at some point.

Eric: Oooh.

[Alice and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: Alice and Martha actually also used to be MuggleCast listeners, too, right? Alice, you were saying you listened starting back in 2005?

Alice: Yeah, I was a big fan when I was in high school, and I would listen religiously every week. I’d put it on my desktop computer and I’d study/do my homework while I was listening. I don’t think I was actually doing a lot of studying. But yeah, I was a huge fan, and that was way before people knew what podcasts were. And especially growing up in Montana, I was probably the only person in Montana listening to podcasts.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Alice: So it was so exciting when we heard from you guys, and we’re really excited to be on the show.

Andrew: Aww. Well, I’m glad you both are excited to come on. You both were “studying” and listening, and we were “studying” and recording, or at least I was fake studying.

Laura: Yep, same.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, listeners, if you love MuggleCast as much as Ron and Lavender love PDA, we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and we’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout with the MuggleCasters, and lots more. We do have a new bonus MuggleCast episode coming this week, right, Eric?

Eric: That’s right, a nod towards Valentine’s Day. We recently were discussing the topic, or saying, “Hey, we should talk about our personal romantic history in terms of Hogwarts House and which Houses we find are most romantically compatible among people that we ourselves have dated.” So a little autobiographical discussion about how dating somebody translates well or less well depending on what Hogwarts House they are. So it’s going to be a great bonus. A lot of fun over there on Patreon.

Andrew: Awesome. Well, there are some other great ways to support us, to help us run this independent podcast. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and more.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. We are discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 16, “A Very Frosty Christmas.”

Eric: Andrew, I’m so glad you could join us on this one, because the last time we talked about this chapter, you could not be found. It was MuggleCast 404, titled “Furry Little Problems,” and it aired on February 4, 2019. Here’s a clip from our last discussion on this chapter.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 404.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Micah: You’re led to believe initially that Scrimgeour is this nice dude who convinced his colleague to come home for the holidays and see his family and make amends, but then later learn that he’s just there to talk to Harry.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: He’s as subtle as a freight train here.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “We were just in the area!”

Laura: “Oh, hey, young man! You with the lightning bolt scar and the green eyes! Please come help me find the garden.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Eric: So Laura compares Rufus Scrimgeour’s actions to being as subtle as a freight train, a phrase that she, seven years later while developing this discussion, uses again. Just a very specific, hilarious phrase I’d never heard of before.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That’s so funny. Wow, I can’t believe that stuck with me after all this time.

Eric: It’s true.

Martha: Do you use that phrase a lot in your life?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: No, I mean, not unless it’s warranted.

Martha: Not unless it’s about Rufus Scrimgeour?

Andrew: For this chapter, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, hey, if somebody is being as subtle as a freight train, I guess I will call them that.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But yeah, no, that’s funny.

Martha: It does describe it accurately.

Laura: It really does!

Martha: It’s a very apt metaphor, or I guess a simile.

Laura: Well, that’s a really fun way to get back into this chapter.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: So of course, we are opening up at the Burrow right ahead of Christmas. Harry and Ron are stuck peeling sprouts by hand, which is very important setup for the interaction that’s going to happen here with Fred and George. And while they’re doing this, Harry is filling Ron in on what he overheard between Snape and Draco outside of Slughorn’s party the other night, and Ron kind of answers Harry or reacts to him in somewhat of a Hermione-ish way, by giving the reasonable answer of, “Don’t you think that it’s possible that Snape was just trying to figure out what he’s up to, and that’s why he was offering to help him?” And I was wondering if, as readers, we remember how we felt towards Draco when reading this for the first time. Were we in Harry’s shoes here in terms of how we felt about Draco, or did we think there was maybe something more to the story? I know for me, noting that Draco had been noted to be missing Quidditch, missing classes, that he was looking thin and ill, that was an indicator to me at the time that things were not as straightforward as maybe Harry was interpreting them.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just so wild. Nothing in Book 6 frustrates me as much as literally anything in Book 5, but because we understood in Chapter 2 of this book that Draco is in fact a Death Eater, and Snape is in fact trying to help him, the discussion that they had after Slughorn’s party last chapter reads like not just confirmation, but, “Oh, finally the plot is moving forward,” and when Harry is chatting with Ron about it, and Ron is just like, “Ehh,” being all Hermione-ish, I was just shocked and probably a little put out, of “Oh, I guess the plot is not moving forward. They’re going to continue to not believe Harry.” And it’s almost like a sick game of how long can Harry go without being believed about something that has already been confirmed to the reader, but not to any of the characters? And so I don’t know. It’s fun to… or maybe not fun to be teased so long, and because you just want to hope that Ron and Hermione will get back together and will just be Harry’s friend about Draco, and it just doesn’t happen yet.

Andrew and Martha: Yeah.

Martha: It’s such an interesting setup in this book. It’s so different from the other books in that we have, first of all, all of Harry’s theories about Snape and Malfoy are finally actually accurate. And then second of all, like you said, having the foreshadowing or whatever you want to call it of “Spinner’s End”; we as the reader are in the know for once. And yeah, I don’t remember feeling frustrated, necessarily, because I think… well, as our listeners are aware, I started this book having already been spoiled that Snape was going to kill Dumbledore at the end by our mean cousin.

Laura: [gasps] No!

Eric: Wait, were you in line at that release party where somebody drove by and shouted out? Was that you? Was that you guys?

Andrew: Was that in Montana?

Martha: [laughs] No, it was my cousin a week after the book had come out, and he wanted to tell me, in a very snotty way, “You know that Snape is going to kill Dumbledore, right?”

Laura: Oh, man.

Martha: And I was like, “No, I did not know that.” [laughs]

Eric: Well, I hope that cousin has achieved nothing but success in life. I hope they’re doing well right now.

[Everyone laughs]

Martha: You two would get along. Let’s just… that’s a similar response that he would have to the situation.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Martha: I feel like he would really appreciate that.

Eric: I let the badger claws out a little bit.

Martha: [laughs] No, but I just think that part of what makes this book so unique and special is how different the storytelling is when it comes to the Snape and Malfoy stuff.

Alice: Well, I think, like Eric, I definitely was really frustrated. I was always really team Harry, believed him 100%, and had the same interpretations on things, and so it was just really super frustrating to see especially Ron and Hermione, who usually would agree with him. I’m like, “Why are you sticking up for Malfoy?” And so that was really frustrating. And I mean, yes, we are let in on the plot, like Martha said, but it’s also obviously only half of what’s really going on, so we’re actually not let in on the plot. So it is just a very interesting way that it’s all set up. But I was very team Harry from when I first read it.

Laura: Yeah. It is so funny that you put it that way, because in that way, both Harry and the reader are kind of being played with in the same way by Dumbledore really orchestrating all of this so that we’re only getting certain kinds of information. So actually, with that in mind, I can definitely see where the frustration came from for you, Alice, as well as Eric. Back to this kitchen scene, Harry and Ron are soon interrupted by Fred and George, who do not miss the opportunity to tease the two of them about having to do this peeling task by hand, and they can’t do magic. And something I wanted to talk about – because it kind of surprised me – George accidentally bumps into Ron, causing him to cut his finger with the knife that he’s using to peel sprouts. Now remind me: When we had our episode about Fred and George, didn’t we determine that Fred was the mean twin?

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And Alice and Martha, you guys would love this: Our 508th episode is “How to Tell Fred and George Weasley Apart,” and it turns out there’s actually a very strict rule that is evenly applied across nearly every interaction. This interaction is an outlier. Fred is usually the instigator. Whenever there’s a series of joke-telling and somebody goes too far, it’s always Fred. In this chapter, George is the one that bumps into Ron and causes him to cut himself, so I guess maybe we have to revisit the whole thought process around Fred and George.

Andrew: No, I don’t think we need to, because they’re brothers. They’re still going to have some overlap. They’re twins who like to mess with people.

Martha: Yeah, but did George really make Ron do this? When I read this in the outline – this was before I had read the chapter again – and I was like, “I don’t remember that,” and I’m looking at it and Ron says, “You made me do that!” And George put his feet up on the table, but is it really George’s intention? I don’t know. I don’t quite buy that George meant to do it.

Laura: Doesn’t he say “Whoops-a-daisy” or something like that?

[Eric laughs]

Martha: Yeah, because I think that’s when he sees Ron do it. I mean, Ron throws a knife at him a few minutes later, so I don’t know if it’s meanness as much as it is just the brothers being the brothers. Can I just ask, though… sprouts? What are the sprouts?

Andrew: Are they just sprouts that you put on a sandwich?

Eric: She’s the Head of Hufflepuff House.

[Laura laughs]

Martha: To peel them… what do you peel? I’ve always… I’ve never known in this scene.

Andrew: Peeled sprouts.

Alice: I for some reason pictured it more like potatoes, but that doesn’t really make sense.

Martha: That’s what I always picture with peeling, yeah.

Eric: I think you have to get them…

Andrew: Five Americans try to figure out what this means.

[Laura laughs]

Alice: I know. I was like, “Maybe this is a Britishism.”

Andrew: It probably is.

Eric: You probably have to get them out of their pod?

Laura: I think there are a few in this chapter. There’s some bush that gets named a couple of times.

Martha: And the satsuma.

Alice: The satsuma, yeah.

Laura: I wouldn’t be able to… there’s another one that was really long, though, and I was like, “I don’t even know how to say that.”

Martha: Something that they walk by, I think.

Eric: We’ll have to consult the Harry Potter Cookbook for recipes derived strictly from this chapter.

Martha: Was it the rhododendron?

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: I’m not sure, but I’m inclined to believe that George did this on purpose, because it’s just typical taunting of your younger brother, I think. That said, I think it was really mean you’re making your brother bleed! That’s bad! The only thing that could sort of excuse it, to me, is that Fred and George figure that they can easily heal it; they’ll know how to heal it back up. So it’s almost like no real harm, no real foul. But still.

Eric: Again, it’s like, “Why?” Quidditch goes real hard because of all the injuries, but they’re at a magic school, and a lot of these injuries can be mended with a wave of a wand. So maybe that’s it. I mean, I don’t have a brother, so I can’t say I’ve ever made him bleed, but Andrew…

Martha: How did he do it?

Alice: Well, I was going to say it’s pretty interesting that it’s right following up on this other story about them as children, and how they kind of pushed it too far that time too. They almost… I mean, I don’t know that it was really going to actually work for these two little kids to make an Unbreakable Vow, but that Mr. Weasley had to intervene before they potentially set Ron up to die.

Andrew: That was crazy.

[Andrew and Martha laugh]

Eric: That’s a great point.

Andrew: There should be a rule in the wizarding world where you have to be 16 or older to be able to commit to an Unbreakable Vow.

Alice: I mean, it seems like it’s pretty powerful…

Martha: Yeah, or saying yes to it.

Alice and Andrew: Yeah.

Alice: It seems like it’s pretty powerful magic that I doubt that little kids could do, but I don’t know.

Laura: Yeah. So as this scene goes on, Fred and George are also taunting Ron about Lavender, so they move on to taunting him about, “What could possibly be wrong with this girl if she’s involved… tied up with you?” And I know this may be a little bit of a crackpot theory observation, but Ron does throw the knife at Fred, and which of the twins dies in the next book?

Eric: Fred.

Andrew: Oooh!

Martha: Wow.

Laura: Poor Fred.

Andrew: I like this theory.

Eric: A marked man ever since he insulted Lav-Lav.

Martha: Chekhov’s knife.

[Laura laughs]

Martha: Yeah, that’s a really good point.

Andrew: That’s a good catch, Laura.

Martha: But Fred did turn it into a paper airplane with his wand.

Laura: He did, yeah.

Eric: That’s some quick thinking.

Laura: Yeah, no, definitely. And yeah, it’s very funny, because again, the brothers, they could have definitely very easily helped Harry and Ron with this task by using magic to do it, but they don’t want to. They clearly have other plans, going into town to meet up with a pretty girl.

Martha: Oh, it sounds like amazing plans. Oh, that will be fun.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Live on our Discord real quick, we have had some input about sprouts. Brussels sprouts. I didn’t even think about this. Brussels sprouts are sizable…

Alice: I wondered about that, yeah.

Eric: This whole time I’m picturing tiny little sprouts, and how you do it, but Brussels sprouts are the size of a tiny apple.

Alice: Yeah, and you have to kind of peel those, don’t you?

Laura: I don’t think I’ve ever peeled a Brussels sprout.

Eric: You can boil ’em…

Martha: I usually cut them in half and then cut the end off.

Alice: And sometimes the outer leaves are kind of folding away.

Martha: But they’ll just fall off if you’re cutting them.

Alice: Yeah, I don’t know. I’m reaching.

Andrew: Listeners, let us know.

Martha: I wondered about Brussels sprouts, too, so I’m glad somebody brought that up. The sprout mountain. I do like that visual, even though I don’t know what I’m picturing, because I don’t know what the sprouts are.

[Alice and Martha laugh]

Laura: Well, Remus and Fleur have also joined the Weasleys for Christmas, and the Fleur and Mrs. Weasley passive aggression continues throughout this chapter. I know we’ve talked quite a bit about this dynamic, not just with regards to Fleur and Mrs. Weasley, but we’ve also talked about in the past like when Mrs. Weasley was being shady towards Hermione, and how, unfortunately, in some of these female characters, we continue to see this trend towards some characters wanting to tear each other down. And we definitely see both Fleur and Mrs. Weasley trying to get under each other’s skin in this chapter. So I don’t know if anyone had any other observations on that front that we haven’t already touched on the show before.

Eric: It’s just sad to see Fleur’s foreignness to be used to sort of discredit her or make it like she has nothing worthwhile to say. This girl was a champion of the school at which she went to compete in the Triwizard Cup two years ago, and I just think that it’s a shame that her existence in this book is as a punchline, but I’m grateful for the future redemption that’s coming to Fleur and the resolution of hers and Mrs. Weasley’s relationship. But right now, it’s uncomfortable to read how uncomfortable they both are. And Mrs. Weasley didn’t knit Fleur a sweater; she knitted everyone else a sweater. That is a particular low. I mean, this is the fiancée of your oldest son. You’re going to pull that crap?

Alice: The thing that kind of… the more that Martha and I look back at the series now, sometimes… definitely, as a teenager, I would idolize the author, and this is a scene where I’m starting to see now, reading through a new lens, maybe that she’s putting some sexist stereotypes, implying that a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law just always are going to be butting heads. And I mean, yes, that can happen, but it kind of… sometimes it’s like, “Well, that was maybe a little bit lazy to have that as a plot in there.”

Laura: Yeah. Well, I think it’s very uncharacteristic of Mrs. Weasley, when you consider the way she’s portrayed the other 95% of the time in the series.

[Andrew laughs]

Alice: Yeah, that’s the thing. She’s generally so hospitable, welcoming…

Laura: Right.

Alice: … and then just to see this idea that she’s really catty and undercutting other women doesn’t necessarily fit with the rest of her personality.

Andrew: And just not a good example to lead by. You’ve got to be a better role model in situations like this. Family sometimes doesn’t get along.

Eric: And don’t turn up the radio. Don’t just blare the radio. That’s rude.

Martha: So this is one of the Fleur/Mrs. Weasley chapters where I feel like Fleur sort of asks for it. Her imitating Mrs. Weasley’s favorite singer is kind of a slap in the face to Mrs. Weasley, her host. But again, at the same time, when we look back how she’s been treated in the past by Mrs. Weasley, we know why probably Fleur is trying to, I don’t know, stand up for herself in a way, or maybe she’s reached a point where she doesn’t try with Mrs. Weasley anymore. So I get it, but I do think that as far as Fleur and Mrs. Weasley interactions, this is a chapter where we do see Fleur being a little bit maybe catty back. Like I said, the imitation of Celestina Warbeck is pretty rude, I guess. [laughs]

Laura: She’s over it.

Eric: “Who is zis awful woman?” Yeah, I think that’s exactly what it is. This is day 100 or so of Fleur and Mrs. Weasley being under one roof, and so we got a reprieve of it, because we were at Hogwarts with the trio, but they have not gotten a reprieve from each other.

Andrew: That’s a good point.

Eric: And Bill, wherever he may be, has not stepped in and said, “Okay, we’re going to take a break. We’re going to move somewhere else a little bit, into a cottage somewhere.” Whatever is happening is ultimately bigger than either Mrs. Weasley or Fleur about all of this.

Martha: Imagine if they had been quarantined together.

[Andrew and Martha laugh]

Eric: Oh my God, they wouldn’t have survived.

Martha: No, I don’t think so.

Laura: No.

Eric: There would be so few sweaters in one corner of the room.

[Martha laughs]

Alice: It is a good point, though, that Bill could have at some point maybe defended his fiancée a little bit, or said to his mom, “Come on, can you please not?” I mean, maybe he did off the page somewhere, but not where we ever get to be privy to that.

Eric: And if Fleur is being intentionally catty, she should just go wear Bill’s sweater around the house. That’ll show Mrs. Weasley.

[Andrew and Martha laugh]

Laura: She probably doesn’t want to wear a sweater. I found myself thinking that too.

Martha: Yeah, I thought that as well.

Laura: Is it possible that Mrs. Weasley did make her a sweater begrudgingly, but then Fleur was like, “Mm, no thank you”?

Eric: “Zis is eetchy on my skin.”

Martha: It does say, “on whom, it appeared, Mrs. Weasley had not wanted to waste one.”

Eric: Oh, “appeared.”

Martha: But we don’t have the opening of the presents where everybody opens theirs; it just says they’re all wearing theirs except Fleur. So maybe that’s Harry’s interpretation.

Alice: Yeah, and once again, we’re getting it from Harry’s perspective, and as we see in this chapter, he does not interpret everything totally accurately as to what’s going on, so that’s definitely possible.

Laura: That is a great observation.

Eric: Yeah, always very important.

Laura: Well, Harry does finally get a chance to talk to Remus on Christmas Eve as well, and we get a little bit of Remus’s backstory here. Well, we get his current story about what he’s doing now, but then we also get some backstory about how he became a werewolf. So he’s gone underground to live amongst the werewolves to try and de-influence their affiliation with Voldemort…

Andrew: Ooh, a de-influencer.

Laura: Yeah, he’s the original de-influencer.

Eric: [laughs] The OG.

Andrew: Oh, cool.

Eric: Smash that like button.

Andrew: Don’t smash it.

Laura: He shows up and he’s like, “What’s up, chat? Smash that like button; I’m going to de-influence you on Voldemort.”

[Alice and Martha laugh]

Laura: Remus does also name drop Fenrir Greyback as the ringleader of much of the effort to get the werewolves to align with Voldemort, and he talks about how Greyback has made it his life’s mission to attack as many people as possible to turn them into werewolves, and that in particular he likes to attack children, because he likes to “get them young.” He also goes on to reveal that Greyback was in fact the werewolf who turned him when he was a child.

Eric: Yeah, this is just incredibly rough, to see that there is a character who is every bit as disturbed and evil as how people would make all werewolves out to be. Everything people are saying about werewolves out there that makes Remus Lupin teaching at Hogwarts completely inappropriate are all the things that seem to be personified or embodied by just this one, this leader, Greyback, who’s attempting to sway other werewolves and show them that they don’t need wizards and they don’t need to cohabitate, and it’s just… I mean, he’s a boogeyman, and he’s also harboring some deep… he’s causing a lot of harm out there. And this is actually one of the writings, either through Pottermore or extended canon, where you learn a little bit about Lyle Lupin – he’s named – Lupin’s dad, and the specific political pressure he was under, and essentially it had to do with rights that werewolves were going to be gaining. That’s why Remus was attacked. And it’s just an interesting kind of thought, but ultimately I’m just terrified of Fenrir Greyback. I want to lock the door and then double lock it, just thinking about this type of character. It’s a very dark thing to read about in this book.

Andrew: Well, and I think we’ve compared becoming a werewolf with the AIDS outbreak, and I think it would be interesting to explore this backstory that you’re describing, Eric, that was added on Pottermore or wherever else, in the TV show. Because often in media, you see these comparisons, these symbolic comparisons of, let’s say, the wizarding world versus the Muggle world, and I think that would be an interesting avenue to explore for them, with all the extra time they’re going to have in this TV show.

Eric: Yeah, do more flashbacks. Absolutely.

Laura: They should.

Eric: It doesn’t just need to be that one little two-minute scene of Voldemort showing up at the Potters’ doorstep in Godric’s Hollow. We can have flashbacks three times a season, and it would be warranted.

Laura: Yeah. Martha and Alice, I’m really curious to hear y’all’s thoughts around some of the revelation here behind what Remus is doing, but also his background and getting turned in the first place.

Martha: I think it’s one of those situations with the author where she introduces something in such a slight way that’s way bigger than the way she’s introducing it, and we don’t get enough to really see what it is. We get this introduction of Greyback positioning himself near his victims and wanting to get them young, but then apparently after Remus was bitten, he didn’t learn his biter’s identity for years afterwards. So it’s kind of this… it doesn’t quite… I feel like there’s so many unanswered questions with it that could be answered, and I don’t know what I want as far as answers goes. But it’s such a dark thing that’s opened up here, and the concept of Greyback as a character, he’s just pure evil and so scary, and then it’s just barely touched on.

Laura: What were you going to say, Alice?

Alice: Yeah, for sure. And I think the other thing… I liked Eric’s point about how Greyback is kind of the stereotypical werewolf, and it is interesting to see that, where we have this minority group in the books of the werewolves, and how it’s like there’s this one who does embody all those negative traits, and how frustrating that would be for somebody like Lupin, let alone for that to be the person who turned him into a werewolf. Yeah, that would just be… it’s like he’s embodying everything that Lupin is against, and that’s who got him. That’s just horrible for him.

Eric: Yeah, that really sets up a personal conflict between the two men now, the two grown werewolf men. I’d be interested in seeing if they face off. I’ve totally forgotten if they have any interactions in the final battle. We know that Greyback eventually gets Lavender.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Allegedly.

Martha: I don’t think that there is any.

Alice: I don’t think so either, but…

Martha: I really don’t think there is any kind of confrontation between the two of them.

Eric: There should have been, right? They’re pretty much…

Alice: It seems like a missed opportunity, yeah.

Eric: They’re both in the same place.

Laura: Rematch.

Alice: It would have been nice for Lupin to be able to finish him off or something.

Martha: Rematch Lupin.

Laura: Definitely. Yeah, there’s an aspect… and I feel like we could have a whole episode discussing Greyback and digging into his philosophies and ideologies and how they inform what he does, but there is a really dark side to this particular narrative that I don’t think gets explicitly covered in the movies the way it does in the books, where he’s targeting children. And that, in and of itself, if you’re doing a critical reading of the stories and the kind of subtext that you could read into something like that, is an example of some of the darker themes in this story that don’t really get touched on in the movies because they were trying to… they’re kids movies, right? But these stories get more and more adult as the characters grow up.

Andrew: And when you’re a younger reader, the first time you’re reading these things, they go right over your head. We’ve talked about the love potion example again, and then now you look what’s going on in the news as it pertains, in particular, to Jeffrey Epstein, and you start drawing those kind of comparisons here, too, with attacking children.

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: Just so many victims that…

Andrew: You can see why this is a very frosty Christmas.

Martha: [laughs] The layer, too, of Voldemort threatening to unleash him on Death Eaters’ kids, and that’s how Death Eater… or not Death Eaters, but people he’s trying to convert to Death Eater side.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Definitely the intimidation, having him as a weapon, and knowing that Draco even… either a movie-ism or not, Draco name drops him as well to get Borgin to step in line.

Alice: Yeah, that’s another interesting case of them using people in a way that’s not… I don’t know. It’s not like Voldemort cares about Greyback, but he’s like, “I’m going to weaponize you and turn you into this thing I can use.” It’s just all so disturbing.

Martha: Yeah, I remember the scene in Malfoy Manor in the seventh book, always feeling a tiny bit of pity for Greyback when there’s the moment where nobody wants to be near him. And I hate Greyback, he’s awful, and like I said, one of the most purely evil characters in the series, but there is that moment where it’s like even the people that he’s aligned with really don’t… aren’t actually his real allies. They’re disgusted by him.

Laura: Right, they’re just using him.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: Well, Harry is also still trying to get to the bottom of the identity of the Half-Blood Prince, so he brings this up to Remus, and he talks about Levicorpus, and specifically tries to make the connection of, “Well, I have this textbook, and there are all these notes in the margins, and I remember seeing in the Pensieve that my dad did that to Snape, so…” and Remus is really quick to be like, “First of all, your dad was a pure-blood, and he never once asked any of us to call him a Prince.”

Andrew: [laughs] “And there are no princes in the wizarding world.”

Eric: I think Remus is covering. I think James did ask specifically for that. I think Remus is just doing the good friend thing.

Martha: [laughs] And he’s like, “Is this a name you’re thinking of going by yourself?”

[Alice and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, that was really funny.

Laura: “The Chosen One’s not good enough for you?”

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: The Chosen Prince. He’s workshopping a new version. The Chosen Prince.

Martha: [laughs] Who Lived.

Andrew: But another line from Lupin that stuck out to me is when Lupin was talking to Harry about Snape; he said, “You are determined to hate him,” him being Snape. And that line jumped out to me, because not only is Harry trying to talk to Arthur and Remus about Draco, but he’s also talking to them about Snape. And has Harry considered even once yet that this book of his that’s been helping him in Potions could have been Snape’s?

Laura: No.

Andrew: Like Lupin said, he’s so determined to hate him, that thought doesn’t even cross his mind. How could this guy, this idiot who really knows his Potions, have possibly wrote all this brilliance in this book? So it’s just interesting to me how his hate clouds his judgment.

Alice: It’s sort of a good cover for why Harry never thinks of Snape, because I feel like we want it to come as a total shock at the end that it is Snape, so if Harry had floated that idea in his mind, it wouldn’t have been a shock for us. But I think you’re right; it’s a natural way of saying this is why Harry would never consider it, because he’s so far out of anyone Harry would respect. He would never think – Harry – that he could have done something that he would like.

Martha: And to be fair, too, as a teacher, it’s not like Snape has really shown his Potions prowess to Harry.

Andrew: True.

Martha: I don’t think that Harry thinks of him as being that great at Potions, because he’s not that great at teaching. So I don’t know if Harry really has all that… I mean, obviously has very little respect for Snape period, but when it comes to Snape as a Potions Master, I don’t really know if Harry thinks of him as being so good at Potions.

Alice: Yeah, it was almost like a surprise when we found out he was the Prince, because it was like, “Oh, yeah, he does like Potions.”

[Eric laughs]

Alice: Because it’s always like, “We know he’s really into the Dark Arts.”

Laura: Right.

Martha: And we know that he really… that’s his second choice subject.

Eric: Well, and… yeah, no, it’s a good point about all the misdirection that’s been put in the books. There are these tiny moments where whenever Harry, Ron, and Hermione screw up a potion, he knows exactly what step they failed at and exactly what ingredient they…

Martha: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: And that’s cool as hell that he’s that into it, but it’s so subtle. And something I want to really just state here is how much I appreciate Lupin saying, “Harry, you’re prejudiced. This is something that you are predisposed to thinking because you’ve inherited a prejudice.” Lupin is the only one that can tell Harry this, that can talk to Harry like this, I think. He’s singular in that sort of friendship and mentorship angle that they’ve got together, and it is so crucial to hear that sort of thing from a friend, right? “Oh, you’re prejudiced.” Now, we understand Snape and Harry have very good reason to dislike each other – even Remus, in this chapter, says so – but the way in which you’re jumping to conclusions… or it’s just important for friends always to call out what they think might be the beginnings of something that isn’t completely above board.

Martha: I think you’re right that Lupin is the only person that could say something like this to Harry, but at the same time, I don’t know that Harry really listens to him.

Eric: Right. You can only do so much. You can point out…

Martha: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true. But also, I mean, the prejudice that Harry has towards Snape does not just come inherited from his father. Snape has treated him terribly.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Exactly.

Alice: Well, Martha and I always… we love/hate this scene. We always quote the line about, “I neither like nor dislike Severus.”

Eric: Augh!

Alice: And it’s just kind of… it’s always like, “Okay, Lupin.”

Martha: And “We shall never be bosom friends.”

[Andrew and Martha laugh]

Eric: Okay, wet blanket Remus Lupin.

Alice: Yeah, exactly. It’s like, “Oh my gosh.” But you have to really… I mean, wow, he must do a lot of meditation or therapy or something to come to that point…

Eric: Oh my God, yeah.

Alice: … because I just don’t understand how he just is so zen about the whole thing. It’s almost ridiculous.

Martha: It’s like a serenity prayer or something.

Andrew: Well, but he’s an adult. He’s over it. He’s not wanting to roll around in this drama anymore.

Alice: That’s true.

Laura: Well, and he also points out that Snape was the one who was brewing the Wolfsbane Potion for him the entire year in Book 3, and that had he wanted to screw with Lupin, he totally could have.

Alice: No, I admire that about Lupin.

Eric: So Lupin is… he says, “Harry, I’m contractually bound to not be mad at Snape anymore because of all the times he made the potion for me.”

Martha: “And he didn’t kill me. He could have.”

Andrew: Even though it probably frustrates Harry to hear what Lupin has to say, Harry does have to remember here that Lupin has decades on him, a couple of decades on him, when it comes to his relationships and knowing Dumbledore and Snape. So what he says about Dumbledore and Snape, in my opinion, should close the book on this for Harry. “You’ve got to trust Dumbledore. I know him. I know his relationship with Snape. Just go with it. I know it’s hard.” But I just don’t know how you argue with somebody who’s known these people for many, many years more than you have.

Alice: Well, he’s a teenage boy, so that comes naturally.

Martha: I was going to say.

Andrew: There’s that.

Eric: That’s how you argue. That’s how you keep getting back up again. You have the losing hand; you keep fighting anyway. I really liked what Martha was pointing out, as far as these aren’t the only reasons Harry has a prejudice against Snape. Actual lived treatment is such a call-out, because to be honest, Lupin is overlooking that aspect. And so when Lupin is telling Harry, “You should trust Dumbledore,” or, “We should all just go ahead with Dumbledore on this,” we all know that Dumbledore is actively manipulating Harry still. Still!

[Alice laughs]

Eric: A year after he told him, “I’ll tell you everything,” he still ain’t told him crap. So it’s unfortunate that Lupin kind of gives up early, almost, by saying, “Dumbledore trusts him, and that’s good enough for me,” because there is more going on. And Harry has unique insight into Voldemort’s brain that make him think there’s still more going on, and he’s right, so it kind of complicates things.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and he’s also having Arthur somewhat downplay his concerns with regard to Draco, but Arthur at least tries to level with him, and he was like, “Look, Harry, I checked. After what you said to me on the platform, we went and raided their house, and there wasn’t anything.”

Martha: I’ve always loved that Arthur actually did that. That’s such a showing of trust in this 16-year-old kid that many adults wouldn’t do. That’s like, “Okay, you overheard a weird conversation. Let it go.” That’s what most adults would respond. I say that as a teacher who interacts with teenagers all the time. I wouldn’t go and check the house. Not that I have the chance to…

Eric: So students come up to you all the time, and they say, “Somebody’s doing an illegal thing,” and you’re just like, “Nah.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Thank you for telling me.”

Martha: When it comes to the illegalities, no. But like, “I overheard a weird conversation…” I don’t know. It just feels like Arthur… it’s very admirable that Arthur actually went and checked the house and did what he could.

Laura: Right.

Eric: God, somebody is on Harry’s side here, trying to believe Harry.

Martha: Yeah, exactly.

Alice: You would think that would honestly go a little further with Harry. He doesn’t really show… I mean, he still wants to bring his concerns to Mr. Weasley, but he’s not overly grateful that he did that. It’s kind of surprising.

Eric: No. Yeah, Harry could… I mean, this is a 16-year-old boy’s side, but Harry could always say, “Hey, by the way, thank you so much again.”

Alice: Yeah, like, “That means a lot that you took me seriously on that.”

Martha: He’s also very much an afterthought, telling Mr. Weasley; when he tells Ron, he’s like, “I might have a word with your dad too. He might be useful.” Not that, “Oh, that’s the first person I need to talk to about this, because I know he’ll actually do something.”

Eric: I love whenever Harry just veers off and ends up talking to somebody he wouldn’t initially think to, like, “Oh, Nearly Headless Nick is over there,” or, “Oh, Mr. Weasley is over there.” Anybody Harry just randomly is like, “Oh, yeah, this person’s in my life.”

[Alice and Martha laugh]

Martha: I wish that Harry had confessed this to Sir Nicholas.

Eric: Oh my God, that would be amazing.

Martha: “Hello, Sir Nicholas.”

Laura: Well, we’re going to take a quick break, and then we’re going to be back to talk about Christmas Day on this frosty Christmas, so we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Laura: All right, and we are back, and we are waking up on Christmas morning, where we’re reminded that the cringe of the Ron and Lavender relationship persists, even though they’re not actively engaged in massive PDA at this moment, but it’s because Lavender has sent Ron a gold necklace with the words “My sweetheart” dangling from it.

Andrew: Eugh.

Martha: Oh, that is such a nice gift.

Laura: Can we relate to Ron’s reaction here? Have any of us ever been in the position of getting a gift like this from somebody and being like, “Ehehh…”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: This relationship is just not going to work. I mean, Ron is not this type of person where he’s going to be wearing this type of thing, and this is just a huge red flag that this relationship is destined to fail. Ron is not this type of person, and Lavender is not seeking out the type of person who Ron is.

Martha: Did Ron even get something for Lavender? That’s what’s really heartbreaking here.

Laura: I don’t think he did. My headcanon is that he did not.

Andrew: He says in the chapter, “We don’t do much talking; we just do snogging.” That’s his gift to Lavender. It’s more kissing.

Eric: His presence is enough of a present for her, okay?

Martha: Yeah, he probably gave her a paper coupon for a five-minute make-out session.

[Alice and Andrew laugh]

Eric: Yeah. Oh my God, all those self-serving Christmas gifts where it’s really like, “Ooh, cuddle time under the mistletoe.” It’s like, “Yeah, that just benefits you.” That’s such a Ron thing! Augh.

Martha: Just… poor Lavender. I mean, this is such a terrible gift and so not Ron, but she went and bought this and thought that he’d like it. Poor girl.

Laura: She’s trying, right? Ron is not trying.

Eric: Well, this is so indicative of how Ron views this relationship, which is to say he doesn’t at all think of it really as anything… he’s trapped in this moment. He’s trapped by his own actions, really. The fact that somebody would think that he was their sweetheart, when really he’s just on some anti-Hermione kick. And it’s a shame to see the setting up for collateral damage here, because Ron doesn’t want to be anybody’s sweetheart, besides maybe Hermione’s, but he’s not doing anything to actually go and get what he wants. Instead, he’s making the situation catastrophically worse.

Martha: Yeah, you’re right; he immediately pivots to asking about Hermione right after this.

Eric: That’s how you know she’s on his mind.

Martha: As subtle as a freight train, as some might say.

Eric: Oh my God.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Yeah, Ron is not the king of subtlety. Go ahead.

Alice: I do have to thank Lavender for this, though, because this is Martha’s and my all time favorite font in the series, in the American version.

[Laura and Martha laugh]

Andrew and Eric: Ohh!

Alice: The font of “My sweetheart” is just so funny. I think they did a great job picking it out, and I love it.

Martha: I can’t look at this page without cracking up. [laughs]

Eric: Can you describe it? Is it loopy?

Martha: Very loopy.

Alice: Yeah, it’s a loopy, very cursive… not quite cursive, but just so goofy-looking. It just makes it so funny.

Andrew: Girly.

Martha: All these spiral… yeah, again, picturing this on a necklace that Lavender thinks Ron is going to wear just adds so much to this.

Laura: I wanted to spend the rest of our discussion talking about what happens during Christmas lunch when Harry and the Weasleys are… greeted? That’s an interesting term…

Andrew: Greeted?

Laura: Yeah, greeted by a surprise visit from Percy and Rufus Scrimgeour, the Minister of Magic. And there’s this whole just unbelievable setup that it’s very clear… Mrs. Weasley is the only one who buys into it because she’s just so glad to see her son. And the story that they give everybody is, “Oh, you know, we were just in the area working, on Christmas Day…”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “… and Percy was just… he wanted to stop by and see all of you.”

Andrew: That’s so sweet.

Laura: And Scrimgeour takes this as an opportunity to say, “Ah yes, you, young man, who I definitely don’t know who you are. Looks like you’re done eating. Why don’t you come with me for a turn around the garden? You can show me around.”

Martha: Sneaky.

Andrew: Yeah. First of all, I wouldn’t put it past Percy to actually work happily on Christmas Day.

Laura: Totally.

Andrew: He’s a prat and a workaholic like that. But second of all, this, to me, was somewhat believable until Scrimgeour makes the comment about, “Oh, you, boy, who I totally don’t know is the Chosen Prince. Can you please go on a walk with me?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That part…

Martha: “Oh, your plate’s empty.”

Eric: “How about you specifically…?”

Andrew: If Scrimgeour approached this differently, I think maybe it would have went over a little better with Harry. But just this act is so disingenuous that it puts Harry and the others – besides Molly, I guess – on their guard.

Eric: Yeah, Harry points out that others have empty plates, too, and he doesn’t ask them. And in fact, they clearly live here.

Martha: Yeah, why didn’t he invite Fleur and George?

Eric: Yeah, they all have red hair. They all clearly live here, just like Percy did. So if you want a tour around the garden, Harry should just be like, “Well, I could. I’ve never been there, but I could guide you around the garden.”

Andrew: Well, it does make the most sense for Harry to go with him, because all the Weasleys, in theory, would want to spend time with their son and brother, Percy.

Eric: Oh, right. Okay.

Andrew: So just say, “Hey, Harry, good to see you. Can we have a talk?” I don’t know. That’s how I would have approached it.

Laura: Right, just be direct. Be honest.

Martha: Be normal. [laughs]

Laura: I think Harry would have had more respect.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: That’s it.

Martha: He’s just being weird. [laughs] That’s just not how normal people act.

Andrew: And then that puts Harry on his guard.

Eric: Listen, this was a first draft. Scrimgeour has been rebuffed by Dumbledore the whole summer and up to this point, and they finally developed a plan. Admittedly, it’s more like the beginnings of a plan, but it worked! It actually gets the Minister for Magic sneakily right into Harry’s presence so he can make the ask, and I think even Scrimgeour is maybe surprised or didn’t have a chance to plan for it to be, because he so quickly reveals his cards.

Martha: Yeah, what a clever ploy it was.

Alice: Well, the problem is I don’t think he has amazing advisors around him to give him tips on how to interact with people.

Eric: Yes.

Alice: He’s hanging out with Percy a lot, and I feel like that seems like not a good way to figure out…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He doesn’t have social skills. Not good ones, anyway.

Martha: Yeah, Percy and Umbridge are his two main advisors.

Eric: Oh, God. And he doesn’t know enough to know not to bring up Umbridge ever, because that is complete anathema to his cause.

Laura: Right. No, and I think it really does go to show that Scrimgeour… even though I think we feel like he’s maybe a little more polished than Fudge, I don’t think that he’s any more politically savvy, because he doesn’t know anything about Harry. If he’s taking his cues from Percy about how to appeal to Harry, that is the wrong person to be getting that guidance from.

Eric: Because Percy never understood Harry.

Laura: No. No, and to be honest with you, I could see both Percy and Umbridge being the ones to say, “Oh, yeah, dangle the carrot of the Aurorship under his nose, and that’ll get him.” It’s like, “You don’t really know this character, if that’s what you think will appeal.”

Martha: Yeah, because that would have been a way to get Percy to do it.

Laura: Right.

Martha: To be like, “You could get a job at the Ministry if you do this.” And so Percy probably…

Eric: And Umbridge too.

Martha: Yeah, true.

Eric: Oh, man. Well, I love the point that Rufus doesn’t have the right advisors, and then he’s pretty much alone, because that’s always how I think of Scrimgeour dying, is completely alone. His Ministry gets infiltrated, and it’s up to the point where he eventually… this great warrior just falls, because he isn’t propped up by the best people. He isn’t propped up by the people that actually have their finger on the right pulse, and it’s just… it is sad to see the beginnings of the end here for Rufus. When Harry rebuffs him, there’s no follow-up plan. The Ministry just kind of grinds to a halt. Not that Harry causes it, but they were always going in that direction anyway, and it’s kind of sad to see the end and it start to unravel here.

Laura: Yeah. Well, I think we could argue probably that the end has been unraveling since he took the Minister position. I just don’t think this man was ever equipped – and I also don’t think the Ministry was equipped – to deal with this in the way it needed to be dealt with. And to that point, Scrimgeour is very much trying to appeal to Harry, get Harry to create the appearance that he is working with the Ministry to try and bring Voldemort down, and Harry point blank tells him, “Well, that would make it seem like I agree with what y’all are doing, and I don’t, because you’re imprisoning and arresting people who are not actually Death Eaters, because that’s easier than going after the real thing.” And also, the call is coming from inside the house on that one too.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Alice: It’s really interesting with this scene, because we see Harry really reject the idea of being used as a tool by Scrimgeour, and saying that he’s Dumbledore’s man, and then we’re going to ultimately find out that Dumbledore is using Harry as a tool.

Eric: It’s a shame.

Alice: [laughs] It’s so interesting that he’s saying this, but just to see that Dumbledore clearly had a much more persuasive approach, so that when Harry does find out eventually that he is being used as a tool, he doesn’t just reject that.

Andrew: I think it is from a place of love and care, though. Dumbledore’s is. The Ministry’s is just shallow.

Alice: I agree.

Martha: More so than the Ministry’s is, at least.

Eric: But at least Dumbledore is taking into account, on some very base level, Harry’s wants, needs, desires, hopes, whatever, whatever. The bar is pretty low, but Scrimgeour doesn’t know Harry at all, to the point. And Dumbledore has set… Dumbledore has done Harry a solid only ever in that he’s given Harry a way to be safe and survive up to this point, but that alone is much more than Scrimgeour could ever give Harry.

Martha: Well, I think it’s interesting that with Scrimgeour… not that this is going to… obviously we don’t have time to talk about all the Scrimgeour stuff, but I think for Scrimgeour, we learn the best, most politically savvy, most noble thing he ever ends up doing is when he dies not caving to Voldemort, and that he wasn’t going to be the pawn for Voldemort that he hoped he would be.

Eric: Aww.

Martha: So maybe this conversation did do something for him, that he maybe does respect the Dumbledore mission a little bit more than we thought he was going to, because we do learn that when Voldemort tries to capture him, he never caved, and never gave the information that Voldemort wanted to get from him.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I don’t think Scrimgeour is a bad guy, but I think his inability to adapt to what Harry is telling him, and his sort of persistence that they’re going to keep arresting Stan Shunpikes of the world, is enough to put the nail in the coffin between… for their collaboration.

Laura: Totally.

Eric: It’s almost like the feedback he gets from Harry… which Harry is so real for. You feel it from Harry’s heart that he really cares about this. He just doesn’t know what to do with this feedback, because the Ministry is this behemoth that’s working a certain way, and politics, and “You don’t understand; this is how we have to act like we’re doing something.” All these big parts that even Scrimgeour probably feels can’t be changed. Harry is like, “Why don’t you just change this? Why don’t you just wave a wand and fix this and not be this way?” And Scrimgeour is like, “I don’t even know where to start with that. I’m trying to get a Dark wizard now; maybe we could talk about this later.” [laughs]

Laura: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think in a certain respect, I can appreciate what Rufus is up against, because he’s trying to lead a country and a community, and it’s very unclear right now which leader people should be looking towards. Is the leader Harry, or is it the Ministry? And if you’re leading the Ministry, you probably don’t want people to have split allegiances between you, as an organization, and this teenager. [laughs] So that’s the position he’s in, is thinking about the political optics of it all. He’s definitely not thinking about it in the right way, because he’s still stuck on the politics and those moves and what it looks like.

Eric: I’m so stunned by you pointing this out, that Harry actually has a lot of power across the nation right now, power he never utilizes. But when Scrimgeour says to Harry, “It would mean a lot if you would be shown to be seen at the Ministry,” what he’s talking about is actually the power that Harry has to influence minds, and he’s a real influence. That’s a heck of a thing. I often myself overlook it. You know what I’m thinking, Laura? I’m thinking this should be Max’d.

Laura: Oh, definitely.

[“Max that” sound effect plays]

Eric: I want to see both the entire conversation with Scrimgeour and Harry, but also what’s happening in the Burrow. I am surprised Percy escapes with his life. The last time we see the Weasleys, they are all stony-faced, looking at… like you said – I think it was Laura – Molly is the only one that buys into this. And this ruse… I’m just surprised there wasn’t a fist fight and basically a wizard duel, because Percy showing up… I want to see their side of things. I want to see the sibling dynamic that is now unleashed, all this hell, because I don’t think Percy should be allowed to escape from this horrible thing where he invited somebody who was unwanted into the Weasleys’ home for Christmas. I don’t think he should be able to escape unscathed for this.

Martha: Well, you’ll be pleased with the first page of Chapter 17, then.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, gosh darn it! Here’s the problem, is I don’t read ahead, even though I’ve technically read this book before.

Andrew: I don’t either. I need to do that more often.

[Alice and Martha laugh]

Eric: Yeah. Is there a fist fight?

Martha: No spoilers.

Eric: Oh, yeah, don’t spoil me, Martha.

Laura: Keep the secrets.

Eric: Yeah. Darn it.

Laura: Well, that closes out this week’s chapter.


Superlative of the Week


Laura: Now we’re going to get into MVP of the Week. This week’s MVP – Harry has quite a few of these, this chapter – best sassy Harry line of Chapter 16.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to this line: “You’re making Stan a scapegoat, just like you want to make me a mascot.”

Laura: Oooh.

Andrew: I mean, to say this to the Minister of Magic?

Eric: That line goes so hard, I can’t top it.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: I’m going to piggyback on what you said.

Laura: There are so many good lines in his conversation with Scrimgeour, but I just wanted to give this one in an exchange he has with Ron a shout-out. With regards to his Christmas present from Lavender, Harry says, “Classy. You should definitely wear it in front of Fred and George.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: You know, those connoisseurs of jewelry, Fred and George.

Laura: Yep.

Alice: [laughs] The line I picked was also from that conversation about the necklace, and it’s right after Harry gets his present of maggots from Kreacher, and Ron is kind of teasing him about that, and then Harry responds with, “I’d rather have them than that necklace.”

Andrew: Love it.

Laura: Ouch.

Martha: Back to Harry sassing Scrimgeour, I thought it was a huge mic drop moment of “Yeah, and others might say it’s your duty to check that people really are Death Eaters before you chuck them in prison.”

Andrew: Yeah, he was sassy this chapter.

Martha: He says “chuck them in prison” twice, too, which is a great phrase.

Eric: Amazing. Yeah, “chuck.” [makes a throwing sound]


Lynx Line


Laura: And now we’re going to get into our Lynx Line. Supporters over on Patreon.com/MuggleCast have answered this week’s question, which is: What do you think Fred and George were trying to get 5-year-old Ron to make an Unbreakable Vow for?

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: That’s something that’s revealed this chapter.

Andrew: Neil said,

“I believe Fred and George tried to make Ron promise to be their personal MC, and any time Fred and George would enter a room, Ron must loudly proclaim, ‘BEHOLD. THE LEGENDS ARRIVED!’ Especially at every family meal.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Amazing.

Andrew: I could see that.

Eric: Mason says, “Fred and George wanted Ron to give them birthday presents every year for the rest of their lives – at least 30 Sickle value!”

Laura: Oh, that’s mean. Megan says,

“They wanted to make sure Ron would never tell on them! If I had the ability to magically solidify that fact with my younger brother, I would have been in a lot less trouble when I was as a teenager!”

Andrew: Zachary said, “Fred and George were so enamored with a brother who looked up to them so they made him swear he would never change or grow older.” Oh, that’s kind of cute.

Eric: Mev says, “To clean their room for the rest of their lives and not tell Molly.” Man, people really understand Fred and George with these second halves of “There’s a price limit,” and “Don’t tell mom.” So good.

Laura: And Carly says,

“Knowing how much Ron looked up to Fred and George, he was agreeing to be their test subject forever and do whatever they told him to do. He wanted to prove he wasn’t like Percy even from an early age.”

Andrew: Love it. Love the creativity.

Laura: I think that one’s my favorite.

Andrew: Yeah. Listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCastast@gmail.com. You can also leave a comment on Spotify or YouTube, or DM us on social. Whatever’s easiest for you. And next week, we will actually kick off our monthly Harry Potter TV show episodes. These are going to be special episodes dedicated to the Harry Potter TV show. We have some special segments that we’ve created just for these episodes; we’re going to be looking at the latest news concerning the TV show, set photos, all kinds of things. They’re going to be a lot of fun, and they’re going to kick off next week. Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more, including the Quizzitch form.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 15 of Book 6, we hear from Luna about the Rotfang Conspiracy, which involves gum disease. What do you call someone who’s a specialist at treating gum disease? The word we were looking for as this week’s Quidditch answer was periodontist. You may really only come across this word when you’re looking up your medical insurance, your dental insurance, but hey, there it is. Correct answers were submitted by Andrew’s Troll; Ben not Shane; Blue the Raptor Stuck in Isla Nublar; Fangs for the Memory; Gummy Walnut; I wish I did have to look this up #FlossYourTeeth; Lunamoona; Mike Who Cheese Harry; Patronus Seeker; QuidWitch; Stewy Brewy Pettigrewy; Teacher of Muggles; and Tofu Tom. And congratulations, everybody. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In this chapter, Molly Weasley jams to a Christmas-themed special on the radio. In what year did the Muggle equivalent of Celestina Warbeck’s Christmas hits debut? I’m speaking, of course, of Mariah Carey’s “All I Want For Christmas Is You.” What year did it come out? And for bonus points, what year of Hogwarts was this for Harry? It came out while he was at Hogwarts; that’s a little hint for you guys.

Andrew: I like hearing Jim Dale perform as Celestina Warbeck in the audiobooks. I was hearing that earlier today. That was really funny.

Eric: You know, it just so happens we’re podcasting with someone that does an excellent Jim Dale impression here.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Alice, would you care to…?

Martha: Alice only does the Jim Dale impression of the narrator.

Alice: I only do it when he’s the narrator, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, she did say that.

Alice: Martha would do the Celestina Warbeck, yep. And Celestina Warbeck…

Martha: I don’t think so.

[Everyone laughs]

Martha: Now’s not the time.

Andrew: They did hire a professional singer for the full-cast audiobooks, and I heard a little bit of that in Prisoner of Azkaban, I think? Or Chamber? I’m forgetting.

Alice: Oh, that sounds fun.

Eric: Well, the Christmas special down at the theme park is excellent, the Celestina Warbeck and the Banshees, I think it is.

Andrew: And she performs year-round, for the record. Not just Christmas.

Eric: Yeah, but they do a special Christmas-themed show to honor this chapter.

Andrew: Martha and Alice, thank you so much for joining us today. It was wonderful having you on. And you two host the Real Weird Sisters podcast. I presume people can find it everywhere they get their podcasts?

Martha: Correct, wherever you listen to podcasts. And we are also on Patreon; Patreon.com/RealWeirdSisters. Thank you so much for having us today.

Alice: Yeah, thank you so much. We had a really fun time.

Andrew: Listeners, check out their podcast, the Real Weird Sisters. We’ll have a link in the show notes. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Martha: I’m Martha.

Alice: And I’m Alice.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric: Bye.

Transcript #738

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #738, Romance and Rumors (HBP Chapter 15, ‘The Unbreakable Vow’)


Cold Open


Micah: Hermione… when she’s having this conversation with Harry, it just made me think, “Who are you to talk about the security protocols of the school and say that, ‘Oh, they’re just love potions’?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, as the person who is the only person in this whole school who’s read all of Hogwarts: A History, I feel that Hermione is uniquely qualified to talk about the security protocols in place. Just suggesting.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and upcoming TV show, so make sure you press that follow button in your podcast app, and that way you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, brush up on your Rotfang Conspiracies, because we’re discussing Chapter 15 of Half-Blood Prince, “The Unbreakable Vow.” Before we do that, if you love this podcast and want to be our Valentine…

Eric: Aw.

Andrew: … we invite you to support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’ll hook you up with bonus episodes of the show, ad-free episodes, livestreams, a monthly Zoom hangout, and lots more. We can’t do this show without support from listeners like you, so thank you in advance. And it allows us to carve out time to do lots of different Harry Potter things. Eric, you’ve got something on tap, right?

Eric: Yes, speaking of Valentine’s – which is, as we all know, Gilderoy Lockhart’s favorite holiday – if you tune in live to us on Twitch on Saturday, February 14, at 11:00 a.m. Eastern, you’re going to catch the opening run of the Chamber of Secrets PC game play-through over on MuggleCast’s Twitch. And in fact, I’m working on a way for the rest of you guys to join us as well, through Riverside, maybe, if you guys want to pop in during the gameplay. But we’re going to be kicking off into the Chamber of Secrets PC game. The recently played Sorcerer’s/Philosopher’s Stone PC game, all of that is up on YouTube. It’s eight hours of Meg, me, and my cat, Martha, going through it.

Andrew:Flipendo!

Laura: I was going to ask, how many times did you say Flipendo? How many times did you cast it?

Eric: We’d have to run it through AI to check, but I’d bet about 13,000.

Laura: Yeah, sounds right.

Eric: Somewhere around there.

Micah: Will you be wearing lilac?

Eric: Oooh, I should. I should celebrate. Or I could dress in my Gilderoy Lockhart dueling outfit. I’m not sure. We’ll do a poll.

Andrew: So with peace and love, not sure I’m going to be there on Valentine’s Day, but I support this idea anyway.

Eric: Oh, darn. Do you have a special someone, Andrew, who’s taking up your time?

Andrew: I do. We don’t have plans, though, so I’ll play it by ear. I’ll play it by ear.

Eric: That’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying. Anybody’s welcome to pop in, pop by…

Andrew: Laura and I haven’t discussed our plans yet, so we’ll let you know.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I’ll be in Los Angeles.

Laura: Wow, way to low-key launch things, Andrew.

Andrew: [laughs] Soft launch.

Laura: I didn’t know that was happening today.

Eric: I ship it, honestly. I ship it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Me too.

Andrew: Well, there are some other great ways to support us, to help us run this independent podcast. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, like this one from a listener who called us as cozy as a warm blanket on a cold day, and they said,

“I have to say that I have a long history with this show. I actually found it before I was ever really a fan of Harry Potter. I really grew up with this show. I even had a tattoo done related to your show.”

We need to hear more about that.

“Thank you all for the laughs, goofy and serious moments, Eric’s constructive feedback, and chatting, Micah’s sarcasm and corny (but sometimes more than PG-13…) humor :), Andrew’s sass and leadership, and Laura’s thoughtful and intelligent insight (you are right, though; she is and was of the voice of reason 🙂 All of you are smart and I am blessed that my family member found your show in 2006. You are like having online old(er) friends that talk about Harry Potter.”

Laura: That’s really sweet.

Andrew: Well, thank you to who wrote that. Yeah, so please do leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can also tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy shirts, hats, glassware, and more. So that’s how to support us so we can do Chapter by Chapter…


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: … like this week’s Chapter by Chapter, Half-Blood Prince Chapter 15, “The Unbreakable Vow.”

Eric: Wow! Which we last discussed way back on MuggleCast 403. The episode was called “Partygood,” and it aired on January 28, 2019. Let’s pop into the Pensieve and see what was happening on that episode.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 403.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Kristy: And it’s not like these are ladies he knows either; they’re just random girls that are stalking him in the halls as he’s trying to go to class.

Andrew: Yeah, this was never a problem when I was a kid in school.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Nobody wanted to kiss me.

Micah: Don’t take this the wrong way, but I think honestly at this point, he’s more focused on Draco than he is on any of the girls that are trying to pay him attention.

Laura: Oh, heck yeah.

Eric: He’s certainly getting there.

Andrew: And that’s where all the fanfiction stems from.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Well, we are going to keep going with that romance theme. In this chapter, we learn that Hermione and Filch both have a very specific type, and the stress of teenage crushes is on full display, to kick things off, as invited guests gear up for Slughorn’s holiday party. And Harry, looking to avoid being love potioned by any of a dozen girls looking for an invite with the Chosen One, he decides on a whim to invite Luna, and then Hermione ends up inviting Cormac McLaggen.

Eric: I don’t think it was even on Hermione’s radar to take Cormac. She doesn’t like him; she clearly does not really want to see him succeed at anything, let alone offer her time to him. But because of how much we were discussing this last week, because of how much Ron overreacted and just said, “Oh, I suspect you’ll be taking Cormac to the party,” and how awful Ron was to Hermione in the last chapter, she’s now gone and done it. She’s invited Cormac, because what does she have to lose? She’s going to just make sure that Ron feels, I think, the pain of his own horribleness.

Andrew: I don’t blame her for taking Cormac. She has an ax to grind with Ron, and she’s going to go through with it.

Micah: I agree with you, Andrew. And this is a classic example of you reap what you sow for both Ron and Hermione, by the way. It’s not just Ron being frustrated and upset by the fact that Hermione has decided to take Cormac; it’s Hermione also having to deal with the consequences of inviting Cormac to the party and not wanting to spend any time with him while they’re actually there.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So she doesn’t have anybody to blame but herself for how things shake out there.

Laura: I agree, she kind of shoots herself in the foot here, because she’s so hyper-focused on wanting to get back at Ron that she actually sets herself up for a really unpleasant evening with a person she doesn’t like. I would say this is the book where Hermione really regresses, because this is… I would think of everything that Hermione has done, this feels like the most un-Hermione-ish thing to do. It really sticks out and feels out of character. Not to say that it was bad writing that she did it; it just goes to show how deeply emotionally invested she is in prospects potentially with Ron, and that having such big feelings kind of throws her off her game and makes her act out of character.

Eric: I was going to ask you that then, Laura, since you are also the girl whisperer here, if Ron is…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: How did this get started?

Eric: We’re going to make this happen.

Micah: New T-shirt.

Eric: If Ron is taken with Lavender, what are Hermione’s options? What should she be doing, other than what you call regressing and taking Cormac? Which I agree, by the way; it’s not her finest moment.

Laura: This is the 37-year-old answer, which is to say she should have just gone stag and enjoyed hanging out with her friends, but she’s 16 here, so she’s not going to do that, right? She’s not going to do the mature thing. But honestly, I think regardless of what she decides to do, she needs to leave Ron alone, because her trying to interfere in that dynamic with Lavender is only going to make him double down harder. So it would have the exact opposite effect of what she wants, I think. So if she was really being mature, she would just say, “I’m just going to hang out with my friends, because I have friends who are going to this party, and I’m going to have a good time.” But again, she’s 16, and who didn’t make stupid decisions when they were 16?

Micah: I do have a bit of a follow-up to that, though: Is there anybody that Hermione could have asked that wouldn’t have ruffled Ron’s feathers?

Laura: No, probably not.

Andrew: Because his problem is they’re not him. Hermione didn’t ask him. That’s the problem.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: I did really like the moment in the movie, though, where they – they being Harry and Hermione – basically come to the conclusion that they should have gone with each other, and it would have solved a lot of their problems. I know that’s not a book-ism, it’s a movie-ism, but I thought that’s actually a pretty good solution here.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: So let’s talk about Hermione and Cormac a little more. So at the party, like we were just saying, Hermione quickly realizes that she made a mistake bringing Cormac. In fact, she says Cormac “makes Grawp look like a gentleman,” and he has one lane; it’s talking about himself and Quidditch, and not asking questions of Hermione. And I loved reading this part as an adult, because it’s a good life lesson that once you get to know someone, you start to realize they’re not as perfect as they may have looked on the dating profile. Or yeah, they might be attractive on the outside, but inside they’re pretty ugly, maybe, in different ways.

Eric: To use a sports term – and Micah, let me know if I’m using this correctly – but to use a sports term, I don’t know how Cormac fumbles the ball so hard, so badly here. He does not ask a single question of Hermione. Hermione is interesting! She’s got a lot going on. Even if you don’t see a romance lasting long with her, if you’re at a party with somebody, ask questions about them, and you know what? Pretend to be interested, even if you have to force it, fake it. This is human, again, 101 here.

Andrew: It’s one of the easiest life hacks.

Eric: Yeah, it’s the easiest thing, especially if this is a date, or if you’re going to… you have to ask questions about them. Nobody’s going to be as obsessed with you as you are of yourself. It’s not how you socialize, bro.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Good use of fumble. I just wanted to ask, do we really think that this qualifies as being a first date? Because Slughorn’s parties, his get-togethers, they seem more performative to me than anything else, and it’s all about image, as opposed to whether or not these young kids who are taking dates actually have any interest in each other.

Laura: I think Cormac thinks it’s a date. I think to him, it definitely is.

Eric: [laughs] So Hermione gets the full Cormac romance treatment, which is to say, absolutely nothing?

Andrew: Nothing at all.

Laura: Yeah, he’s got some work to do. Hopefully he grows up. But yeah, I mean, Hermione is ultimately using him, and I think in that way, we could say that it’s a performance on both sides. It kind of works for Cormac, too, because he’s extremely performative. He loves being the center of attention, and he loves being included in this secret society that makes him feel special amongst his peers, so to feel as though he’s also showing up at that secret society with an equally impressive date, I think, is very much what Cormac had in mind, so that’s why I think he thought it was a date. But Hermione is totally performing here. Something I thought was interesting is earlier in the chapter, when talking to Parvati in the Great Hall, Parvati asks her point blank, “Are you and Cormac going out now?” And Hermione is like, “Yeah, we are.” And to me, “going out” implies that you are boyfriend and girlfriend. So Hermione is playing the long game on this, and I don’t think she knows what she’s in for, what this night is going to involve.

Eric: Oh, no.

Micah: Are we to assume that Cormac is attractive, though? Because I know in the movies, he’s played by Freddie Stroma, who was an underwear model, so they went all out in that casting…

Andrew: Ow-ow!

Micah: … but in the context of the book, I don’t know that we get that. We’re told that he’s kind of this physically imposing character, but I’m not sure… I mean, the girls seem to like him, but I think they take it up to a whole other level with all the innuendo that we see in the film.

Andrew: Yeah, I think maybe for Hermione, I presume he is somewhat attractive, or at least handsome, and she’s really into Quidditch players.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I mean, this is brought up in the book. Parvati says, “Wow, you like your Quidditch players, don’t you? First Krum, then McLaggen,” and then Hermione drops a really sick burn on Ron. She says, “I like really good Quidditch players.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “The guy who was almost Gryffindor Keeper.” I love her laying on that thick.

Laura: And Hermione doesn’t know anything about Quidditch. This has already been established before, so she does not care about Quidditch.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Well, absent any descriptors that paint Cormac’s face or features in a negative light, I think it’s reasonably certain that he’s attractive. I mean, he’s a teenage boy; he’s athletic. There’s really only one shade of that, and it results in being attractive to a certain extent. As to whether…

Andrew: And he has an ego that makes him believe he only has to talk about himself, which also implies he’s always gotten away on his good looks, and not so much his personality. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah! No, that’s a good point. The argument for Slug Club being viewed as a date is that this is the Christmas party. Remember, even last year’s DA meeting that was Christmas-themed had this weight to it, and this extra formality. The mistletoe was in the Room of Requirement, too, and it was kind of like Harry was thinking about Cho the whole time. So I would argue, especially because they’re not usually allowed to bring dates, and that’s what facilitated Hermione even getting an invite, or being able to invite somebody… usually you would have had to have been in the Slug Club; you would have had to have directly impressed Slughorn before. But the date aspect of it is extra permission for this exclusive club. So I think it is actually worthy of being considered more important, or more romantic or a date, because not everybody gets this invite.

Andrew: I mean, you feel really flattered when somebody is inviting you to an exclusive event. That means a lot.

Micah: Look how Luna responded.

Andrew: Yeah, she was over the moon. So we’ve talked about love potions before; we don’t have to spend too much time on this, but I do want to mention that this chapter starts off with quite a few girls wanting to love potion Harry so that he invites them to Slughorn’s party, and when talking about the love potions the girls want to sneak to Harry, Hermione says that Filch’s Dark detectors won’t notice them because love potions aren’t Dark and dangerous. That’s interesting reading now. As younger readers, we probably would have agreed with that on a surface level. Harry actually does voice his concern here; he says, “I’m not so sure those aren’t dangerous.” And now as adults, we’d probably disagree with Hermione. Okay, maybe Filch’s Dark detectors won’t pick it up, but she should still acknowledge that they are dangerous. And love potions should just be banned from Hogwarts totally. I’m surprised that type of thing is even permitted at the school. The adults should have thought to do that by now.

Eric: Definitely. And something that really has come to mind the last 20 years we’ve been doing this is an evolution on the understanding of what a love potion… what weight it really carries. So I mean, we talked about what Merope does to Tom Riddle, Sr., and all the ways in which it’s possible through love potions or other such magic to take away somebody’s agency and manufacture consent. These are all really important things that were not on our minds as kids. But yeah, I agree, love potions should totally be banned from all of Hogwarts at a minimum, and probably the whole wizarding world.

Micah: And Harry is now aware, right? Of what Merope did Tom Riddle, Sr., so he’s speaking from a position of… well, let’s not say experience, but he has a little bit more to go on here when he’s talking with Hermione, especially knowing that he himself now is the target of what these girls are trying to do. But I did want to bring up… I think this is a pretty astute observation that Harry makes, because it’s the precursor to the poisoned mead getting through security later on in the book. And Hermione, maybe because she’s a prefect, she gets kind of additional insight into the security measures at Hogwarts, but when she’s having this conversation with Harry, it just made me think, “Who are you to talk about the security protocols of the school and say that, ‘Oh, they’re just love potions’?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, as the person who is the only person in this whole school who’s read all of Hogwarts: A History, I feel that Hermione is uniquely qualified to talk about the security protocols in place. Just suggesting.

Laura: Yeah, I agree with this. I found it a little odd that Hermione didn’t think about the many ways that harmless contraband could be used to disguise smuggling other things into the school. I mean, she’s the one who got the idea for the DA Galleons to communicate in the fifth book. She got that idea from the Dark Mark, and how the Death Eaters communicate. We’re going to see in this book how Draco drew inspiration to use the Room of Requirement from Dumbledore’s Army. So even if something on its face isn’t “bad,” if somebody wanted to use it for nefarious purposes, they could. So I was a little surprised to see her not connecting the dots there.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s unclear exactly how strong Fred and George’s love potions are, which are basically the ones that these kids would have access to, the girls that are trying to corner Harry. Maybe they wouldn’t make you do all the worst things you could do if you’re attracted to somebody, I guess, or the most egregious. Maybe they just make you want to kiss somebody, which, okay, still problematic, but maybe they wear off quick? Maybe there’s some… so when Hermione is dismissing it as not a big deal, she might be thinking of these lesser sort of… for general consumers.

Andrew: Probably. And Broc is bringing up, “I don’t think they were originally intended to be as sinister as we interpret them now,” and that’s fair. That’s very possible.

Laura: No, yeah.

Micah: I agree they’re not intended to be sinister, but if something like that becomes a gateway for other things coming in beneath the surface, then that’s problematic.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And the heavy duty love potions are in this book. They’re all over it. Slughorn’s first lesson had Amortentia that he himself brewed, and that’s the Merope… that’s the Voldemort-making stuff. Because if you recall that the author at one point said the reason Voldemort is not able to understand love, and essentially is Voldemort, is because of being conceived under a love potion.

Micah: And doesn’t Ron end up ingesting some of this love potion, and that’s the whole reason why they go to Slughorn?

Laura: Yep.

Micah: And he ends up drinking the mead that’s poisoned.

Eric: Right. And as far as that goes, I think…

Micah: At least, that was the movie. I don’t remember the book. [laughs]

Andrew and Laura: We’ll get there.

Eric: I think the issue, too, is the love potion that Ron… the Cauldron Cakes that – was it Romilda? – gives to Harry, they kind of expired or they’re past date, and that actually makes them more dangerous. So I still suggest that these are more garden variety love potions, but again, they’re in the school and they really shouldn’t be.

Andrew: All right, well, we’re going to talk about some foreshadowing, and Filch and Madam Pince together in a tree, but first we’re going to take a quick break. We’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Andrew: So foreshadow alert…

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Andrew: … Snape is at this party too, and when Slughorn spots him, he comments on Harry’s Potions skills and gives Snape credit for Harry’s talents. And then Snape says, “Funny, I never had the impression that I managed to teach Potter anything at all.” So this is super interesting, knowing what we know once you get to the end of the book. Should this have been a red flag to Snape?

Eric: Definitely crazy that Slughorn should have pulled Snape out of a crowd. When you’re reading this, and you’re reading it happening, you’re like, “Oh my God, he’s going to give up the whole game,” especially if you know, again, how the book ends and who the Half-Blood Prince is. But Snape kind of treats it… he very just downplays it, which leads me to question whether he does know or should know, or when he finds out exactly about Harry. Because even if Snape did know at this moment, his response could possibly be the same, because he’s got so much else going on right now, especially with having to contend with Draco in this chapter, that to spend a minute on Harry, where he has some kind of a reaction to his newfound Potions prowess, would be one minute spent too hard on that. It’s the same reason Draco doesn’t touch Quidditch this year, is because Draco… who has time for that? And so I feel like maybe Snape knows, or is starting to figure it out, but is still just going to tend to be sassy.

Andrew: I was trying to see if there were any other hints prior to this moment. It doesn’t seem like Snape has been on his trail, so I’m inclined to think he doesn’t know yet, but this should get the wheels turning. What do you think, Laura?

Laura: I think this gets him suspicious, and if I recall correctly, I think we’re going to start seeing little bread crumbs coming up in future chapters, because Snape is definitely… his attention has been drawn here. But I agree, Eric, I think in this moment, he has a more important objective, and that is Draco. So he’s filing this away, but don’t get it twisted; I mean, Snape definitely stared into Harry’s eyes in that moment. So it’s very clear to me that…

Micah: Violation.

Laura: Say what?

Micah: It’s such a violation that he does that to kids.

Laura: I know.

Micah: But we’ve talked about that before.

Andrew: Trying to read his mind?

Micah: Yeah, trying to read his mind. But I did want to say, I definitely want this scene Max’d, where Slughorn grabs Snape and puts him under one arm and grabs Harry and puts him under another like they’re in one big bro hug together…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: … because I just want to see Snape’s facial reaction, because I can only imagine what Alan Rickman’s would have been if they did film this scene.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. So we’ll return to Snape and Draco in a minute, but I did want to mention Filch and Madam Pince. Is something going on here? I wanted to talk about this, especially because we have Valentine’s Day coming up in the Muggle world. So while Harry and Hermione are in the library, Pince yells at Harry for all the notes he allegedly put in his Potions book. And as an aside, I don’t see what the big deal is about writing in a book. That’s extremely common, at least in the Muggle world.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Especially if you paid for it.

Eric: You’ve got to annotate.

Andrew: Yeah! And you’re a student. You’ve got to jot some notes down.

Micah: Back off, Irma.

Andrew: Yeah, even if he didn’t pay for that book. But once she leaves, Harry says, “It’s not my fault [Madam Pince is] barking mad, Hermione. Or d’you think she overheard you being rude about Filch? I’ve always thought there might be something between them.” And building on this, Pince and Filch are standing next to one another before Dumbledore’s funeral later in the book. “When they reached the entrance hall, they found Madam Pince standing beside Filch, she in a thick black veil that fell to her knees, he in an ancient black suit and tie reeking of mothballs.” Are there sparks between these two? Dish, somebody.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: I mean, I just felt… this all felt so random. It never comes up before or again. Apart from that one moment at Dumbledore’s funeral, I don’t think there’s ever any other support in the books for this, which makes me wonder if it was a little bit of an establishing point for the story, just to say, “Yeah, this is a chapter where there’s a lot of pairing off and a lot of romantic drama, so let’s just do this.” Because Harry never has this thought before this moment where he’s like, “I’ve always kind of thought there was something between them.” Not from what we’ve seen.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No, we’ve read all of these Harry Potter books every year.

Micah: We’ve been with you the whole time.

Eric: There hasn’t been a moment where it’s been apparent.

Micah: But the way it was written certainly suggested… even before Harry said something, the way that Pince reacted would lead you to believe that perhaps she didn’t like the way they were talking about Filch.

Andrew: Yeah, I do think maybe the author was pulling on this thread a little bit, maybe was a little indecisive about whether or not she would explore this further, maybe in Book 7, and ultimately decided to scrap it. But it just seems like this had to be there for a reason; not just this, but then them standing next to each other at the end of the book? It ties into the overall romance theme of Half-Blood Prince

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say.

Andrew: … and then maybe she was debating going somewhere else and just didn’t.

Micah: All I’ve got to say is, “Party in the Restricted Section.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Heyyy.

Micah: It’s not called a Restricted Section for nothing.

Eric: I do think that… now, I don’t know how Mrs. Norris feels about Madam Pince being around in Filch’s affections.

Andrew: Maybe that’s it.

Eric: Maybe, yeah, their cat got between them. But I think there is something about a strict disciplinarian, or the strictest librarian you’ve ever had in your life, and Filch, right? I think both characters would probably support corporal punishment. Both take their jobs way seriously, not always a bad thing. So you can kind of see, personality-wise, how it would align, maybe.

Andrew: Absolutely. And Filch is a Squib; he deserves some love in the wizarding school. He deserves some magic in this school. Why not dating Madam Pince? I think that’d be lovely.

Eric: Well, if Madam Pince didn’t like what Harry did to his Advanced Potion-Making, she’d better not check out his copy of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, because he and Ron wrote all over these books.

Andrew: Whoa.

Eric: If you guys are looking at this. Do you remember these original Comic Relief books?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: They had all the writing in the margins and stuff. Just absolutely insane.

Andrew: So the other big focus of this chapter is Snape and Draco’s conversation outside of Slughorn’s party. Snape pulls Draco away from the party to talk about the mystery plan, and Harry notes that Draco looks like he’s been losing sleep. This is just a sign that Draco is going through a really tough time right now.

Eric: Yeah, and I definitely think that Harry is uniquely attuned a little bit to Draco’s, I don’t know, wariness. I think that Harry is being given a… or has a sixth sense here when it comes to Draco.

Andrew: And Snape attempts to read Draco’s mind to figure out the truth about what he’s up to and if he was responsible for Katie Bell. Draco isn’t taking any responsibility for that. And earlier it was said – and one of you mentioned this, too – that Snape was boring into Harry’s eyes when Slughorn brought up Harry’s Potions skills. So you might be able to argue that the latter was not Occlumency, but let’s pretend it was, plus Snape trying to read Draco’s mind as well. This got me thinking, is Snape too reliant on trying to read people’s minds rather than just being a better human and getting to know somebody?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Try to figure out how to ask them questions and get the answers you’re looking for instead of penetrating your mind.

Micah: Yeah, I’m actually a little bit surprised, too, that Draco doesn’t come clean with Snape about Katie Bell. You’d think that he would be a little bit more open with him. I understand that Snape is his Head of House, so maybe he fears getting into trouble, or Snape going to Dumbledore. But as we later learn, Snape is basically married at the hip to Draco at this point, so Draco should feel more than free to share information. But going back to your question about the mind penetration, it is this cheat code, as you call it, but it’s also a violation. You’re talking about 16/17-year-old kids, and even younger, last year, with the lessons he was supposed to be giving Harry. And what I found really interesting is if you have the right teacher, things can go the right way…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … because Draco has been learning this from Bellatrix, and he’s actually decent at it, because he doesn’t let Snape in. At least, that’s what we’re led to believe.

Eric: Right.

Micah: So my question: Is Bellatrix a better teacher than Snape?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I don’t know. I tend to think maybe he backed down when Draco blocked him, and he didn’t try to penetrate his mind as much. I see this as kind of Snape choosing to lose the battle to win the war with Draco.

Eric: Right. I think that’s right.

Andrew: Well, why is Draco so resistant for help from Snape? He won’t even tell Snape what his plan is, despite the Unbreakable Vow. He’s being such a… is he just being a child? Snape does also acknowledge that he knows that Draco is really frustrated with his dad’s imprisonment, and that’s when Draco actually storms away, so that might suggest that, really, that’s what’s eating at Draco. But that’s not Snape’s fault.

Laura: Yeah, he also accuses Snape of wanting to steal his glory.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah. Does Draco want this glory? [laughs] I mean, you’re a child.

Eric: Well, no.

Laura: No, he doesn’t.

Eric: But also, he wants to come to the understanding that he doesn’t want the glory. He’s still so just heavily in it at this moment that I think he does want to make his own decisions. Even if it can be pointed out to Draco how foolish it is to go it alone, as Snape is trying to do right now, Draco won’t hear it, because he has to be his own man and try and prove something to himself, like, “Oh, I can be a loyal Death Eater, just like my dad was,” and all this stuff. He’s just got to go through this whole thing and find out for himself that he doesn’t got it.

Andrew: Yeah. Do you think Snape is freaking out too, Micah?

Micah: A little bit. And it goes back to the point that I raised earlier of him being married at the hip with Draco; his life literally is dependent upon Draco’s success, because if Draco fails, he then has to step in and kill Dumbledore, elsewise he’s going to lose his life. Now, with Draco, though, Voldemort has given him this impossible task, and it’s really to punish Lucius more than anything else, and so I think that makes this all very personal for Draco, and so that could, in part, be why he’s reacting to Snape in this way, because it’s about the Malfoy family. This doesn’t have anything to do with anybody outside of them. That said, Draco is a teenager, he’s scared out of his mind, he’s isolated, and he’s cracking under pressure, and I think to him, trusting Snape would mean admitting a certain level of weakness. And we know from Draco’s upbringing that weakness has always been seen as dangerous or less than, right? At least from how we’ve seen his father treat him.

Eric: The craziest thing about this is Draco doesn’t need to admit that he’s spinning out and needing help, because it’s very apparent from the attempts that are happening, both the ones that did happen and the ones that are going to continue happening and failing. It couldn’t be clearer to somebody like Snape that Draco can’t handle this, but Draco is unaware of that. He’s going to keep trying, and it doesn’t take Draco admitting for Snape to go, “Oh my God, I’m going to die if I don’t actually figure out how to massage this into a place where it succeeds.”

Andrew: It’s typical child stubbornness, I think, but what Draco is really missing here is that this is way, way, way more serious than your typical, “No, Mom, I won’t clean my bedroom” type of thing.

Eric: It’s shocking to see them at odds, though, the two of them…

Andrew: It is, yeah.

Eric: … because I mean, I just think about all the Potions classes where Snape was absolutely horrible to Harry, pretty much just for Draco’s amusement.

Micah: To build on what you said, though, Andrew, it’s about to get real for Draco. He can’t just operate from the shadows anymore. His actions are going to have legitimate consequences, and he’s going to need to be ready to deal with what comes at him.

Andrew: And during this heated exchange, Draco is asking Snape why he, Crabbe, and Goyle need to be taking DADA classes so seriously, and Snape replies that their learning it “is an act that is crucial to success,” and I love that Snape said this, because this should be a hint to Draco that Snape could be loyal to Dumbledore after all.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Andrew: I call this a foreshadow alert that Snape is acting. He’s been acting this whole series, but not in the way we or Draco think. Do we think Draco has any suspicions at all that Snape has some real loyalty to Dumbledore? I mean, he’s got bigger fish to fry, so probably not.

Eric: Yeah, I think that because of all the stuff that Snape has done at Harry’s expense and how tight Harry and Dumbledore are, I don’t think Draco thinks that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, just because then why was he so mean to Harry all this time? So maybe that’s some level of protection for Snape, but it doesn’t get Draco any more into confiding into Snape; he just sees him as an opponent.

Micah: I think it’s about preparation, though, too, regardless of what side of the fight you’re on. I think there’s this tendency for us to think that because it’s Defense Against the Dark Arts, it’s something that only the Aurors or only Dumbledore’s Army needs to learn, but that’s not true, because it’s not just the Death Eaters that will use the Dark Arts. Maybe there’s a more, better likelihood that they will, but I’m sure that there are those on the good side… you have to be able to defend yourself regardless.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: Yeah, that’s the point I think he’s getting at.

Andrew: True.

Laura: Yeah. I think another part of it is we know that Draco is very academically gifted up until this point. He’s really starting to suffer; we hear that he gets detention because he hasn’t been doing his Transfiguration homework. He’s dropped out of Quidditch. He’s not focusing on Defense Against the Dark Arts. So clearly his grades are starting to suffer, so I think also part of the act Snape may be talking about is saying, “Hey, you’re kind of blowing your cover and showing that something is off because you’re not performing to your usual standards, and you don’t want to do anything that’s going to make you stick out or be suspicious.”

Andrew: All right. Well, I did want to ask a “What if?”

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Andrew: What if Snape or Draco did say out loud, while Harry was listening, that Dumbledore must be killed?

Eric: Augh.

Andrew: Harry, of course, ultimately does not learn about the plan until “The Lightning-Struck Tower.” So who would Harry go to first?

Eric: I think he’d go straight to Dumbledore.

Micah: I agree, but let’s take Dumbledore off the table for a minute here. I would think somebody in the Order. If we go back to earlier in this book, Arthur Weasley seems like a very good ally here, because he followed up on Harry’s tip on Borgin and Burke and going back to Malfoy Manor to search it a second time. Remus, I guess, could be a good second; I don’t know where his head is at right now. Moody seems like the most chaotic, just because he’s so neurotic, so I think he would take Harry seriously. So I feel like any one of them are pretty good options.

Andrew: So I am not convinced that Harry would go to Dumbledore, and it’s because of the quote that you put in here, Laura, about how he handled his suspicions about Draco. What did he say a few chapters ago?

Laura: Well, so this is actually somewhat of an invented quote based on what he said a few chapters ago…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … intended to be an extra layer of spicy, where he would say, “I’m sure you’ll remember, I am aware of your suspicions about Draco Malfoy. For now, I am most concerned with our lesson.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And to be honest with you, I really feel like Harry would go to Ron and Hermione first.

Micah: But would they believe him?

Andrew: No.

Laura: I think proximity-wise, it would end their stupid argument…

Eric: They’re not speaking.

Laura: Yeah, but this would end that argument. If he came to them and was like, “Yo, Draco was literally talking about killing Dumbledore to Snape,” I think they’d put it aside.

Eric: Here’s the thing… yeah, maybe, maybe. I think the problem is Harry needs to go to somebody… Dumbledore is in the castle, so he needs somebody in the castle. McGonagall is really the person who… she’s his Head of House, she’s in the Order, she’s in the castle. Honestly, even if Harry goes to Dumbledore first, and Dumbledore dismisses him with that line – which is perfectly recreated – he would still go to McGonagall because McGonagall then would apply more pressure on Dumbledore to have an answer for Harry, or give… because then it would be news and very concerning for McGonagall. McGonagall doesn’t want to see Dumbledore die, and she’s not in the loop so far as we know ever about Dumbledore’s plan to die at the end of this year.

Micah: I just see this all as Harry being treated as if he’s over-sensationalizing what he hears, and, “Oh, trust Professor Snape. Trust that he’ll take care of the situation accordingly.” Or maybe that’s what Dumbledore says to Harry: “Harry, my boy, Snape has already spoken to me about this.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: “Not now, Harry. Not now.”

Andrew: All right, we’re going to take one more break, and then we’re going to have some more Valentine’s Day fun. We’ll be right back.

[Ad break]


Odds & Ends


Andrew: So we’re at the end of the chapter, but couple of odds and ends. First of all, here’s another number 12! Listeners, do you like this? Tell me if you like this, or am I wasting everybody’s time with these? “Hagrid delivered the usual 12 Christmas trees to the Great Hall,” it’s noted at the start of the chapter. Another odd and end: Luna says vampires are coming to Slughorn’s party, and she specifically says Rufus Scrimgeour, which, he’s not a vampire, but there is another present, Sanguini, and it does remind us that vampires are canon in the wizarding world. I think we hear about them very early on in the series, and then not too much, until this mention. And in an upcoming episode of MuggleCast that focuses on the forthcoming TV show, I want to look at the topic of vampires and if they should be Max’d.

Laura: Cool.

Eric: Only if they sparkle.

Andrew: Only if they sparkle, okay. The Twilight versions.


Superlative of the Week


Andrew: Okay, now it’s time for MVP of the Week. Category is: best character to take to a Hogwarts holiday party, and why?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Cormac McLaggen…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … because it’s just in my headcanon that he’s pretty attractive, and he can talk Quidditch to me all day, baby.

Micah: Oooh.

Eric: Oh my God. I’m going to give it to my Head of House, Helga Hufflepuff! The original. She’ll know just what to bring to a party.

Micah: I went with George Weasley. I feel like going with one of the Weasley twins, you’re guaranteed to have fun. You’re going to laugh. They’ll make it interesting.

Laura: And I said Hagrid, because he just seems like he’d be really fun to party with.

Andrew: [laughs] He would be.

Eric: He parties good.

Andrew: Is he a whiskey drinker? What does he drink normally? Beer?

Eric: No, mead.

Andrew: Mead? Okay.

Laura: Yeah, I feel like he’s normally a… but you know what? He’s talked about Firewhisky before, I think.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: He’ll get drunk later on in this book.

Andrew: I ask because, Laura, I know you’re a whiskey girly.

Laura: I am, yeah.

Andrew: So I’m sure he’d share a whiskey with you.


Lynx Line


Andrew: All right, time for our Lynx Line, and we asked our Slug Club patrons over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast: Snape and Trelawney, they both are seemingly single at Slughorn’s holiday party, which I think is very sad. So with Valentine’s Day approaching again here in the Muggle world, I wanted to know who should they have invited as their dates? And for bonus points to your Hogwarts House, what would be their pickup line to the witch or wizard that they invite? So we’ll start with Rachel. She said,

“Snape would be unable to bring a date; he’s still hung up on Lily. He’d bring a bouquet of lilies. I’m always kind of surprised when he shows up to parties or events. Professor Trelawney should invite Tom the bartender from Diagon Alley. I don’t really have a great explanation for this but it popped into my head and I’m sticking with it. She needs someone who can supply her with sherry.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Matthew said, “Snape would ask out Madam Rosmerta, because he’s only into people he has no chance with. His line: ‘I can stopper death, but I could never stopper DAT ASS.'”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: He is not that smooth.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It’s pretty smooth, honestly.

Andrew: That was a compliment to Eric, I think, Laura just made.

Eric: Thank you, thank you.

Andrew: Wow, Eric, you are so smooth with those pickup lines.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Appreciate that. And “Trelawney would ask out Dumbledore because she’s that oblivious. Her line: ‘In my vision, the mists are entwined, and so are we.'”

Micah: Forty said,

“Snape should have brought Lockhart. In Love Actually, Alan Rickman’s character cheats on Emma Thompson’s character. In real life, Lockhart’s actor cheated on Trelawney’s. Maybe they deserve each other as some brand of interdimensional shaming.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Wow. That’s next level. I appreciate that, Forty.

Micah: And “Trelawney should have brought Neville’s uncle Algie (the one who dropped Neville from the window) because I think they’d vibe.”

Eric: [laughs] I agree.

Laura: Yep. Zachary says,

“Snape’s guest would be the ghost of Lily Potter. His pickup line would be, ‘I know you’re dying to see Slughorn again, so why don’t you come to his Christmas party with me?’ Trelawney’s guest would be Madam Puddifoot. Her pickup line would be, ‘I have read the leaves, and they said you accompany me to the party.'”

Andrew: Oh, yeah, that pickup line is basically baked in for her with every person she’s inviting.

Eric: That’s a good one. That’s a really good one.

Laura: I mean, for both Trelawney and Madam Puddifoot. It applies for both of them, yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, true. Catherine said,

“Professor Trelawney and Professor Sinistra. I don’t think we ever get confirmation of their orientations, so I am shipping them. Two women gazing at the heavens from entirely different interpretive frameworks. One studies stars, and the other feels them. I can see them bonding over cozy cosmic vibes with a glass of wine. Pickup line could be: ‘The planets whisper of a powerful convergence tonight… and I fear it may involve you, Sinistra.'”

Eric: I love this. For some reason I’m hearing Indigo Girls play in the background.

Laura: [laughs] That’s amazing.

Eric: And finally, Jared says, “Professor Trelawney – Nearly Headless Nick. ‘Before your near-beheading, I would have predicted a single beautiful clean cut.'”

Andrew: Oh, that’s awesome. She could have been his hero.

Eric: And Snape is going with Albus Dumbledore! The pickup line suggested is “No woman can replace Lily, but I haven’t tried men. I bet you’re ‘dying’ to be my date.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That is so funny. [laughs]

Eric: Okay, that’s a little in-joke there.

Andrew: Draco is like, “Shh, don’t tell him the plan!”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: All right, thanks to our Slug Club patrons for participating in that. If you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also leave a comment on the Patreon post if you’re a patron, on Spotify, on the YouTube comment section, or DM us on social. And next week, we continue our Half-Blood Prince discussion with Chapter 16, “A Very Frosty Christmas.” Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, Patreon, transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question was: In Chapter 14 of Book 6, Ron receives the benefits of what is known as the placebo effect when Harry fakes giving him Felix Felicis. What is the similar term used when a sugar pill or some such placebo creates a negative or undesired result instead of a positive one? Wouldn’t you know that the correct answer is nocebo. Nocebo effect. Only 30% of people with the correct answer said that they did not look it up, and correct answers were submitted by Ashley B.; Cara; CheeseShark; Da-don’t Ron-Ron-Ron, Da-don’t Ron-Ron; Gilderoy Poptart… oh my God.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Love Potion #9; No Kirsto; Nosey Bow; Of course Dumbledore is gay, they don’t [censored] for nothing.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Oh my God. I don’t know if we can include that.

Micah: I’m surprised we haven’t gotten that one before.

Eric: Yeah, you know, I feel like…

Laura: Oh, you’re probably going to have to edit that out, but that was funny.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: We just do this for us, really, at the end of the day.

Micah: It’s playful.

Eric: Stewy Brewy Pettigrewy Makes Fooey; The Pharmacist; and Tofu Tom Wants to Cohost MuggleCast. Oh, God, Tofu Tom. Seriously, you’re in line. You’re already in line. Just stay in line; it’s going to happen. So congratulations to all the winners, and here is next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 15 of Book 6, we hear from Luna about the Rotfang Conspiracy, wherein there’s a plot involving gum disease. What is the name of somebody who studies and is an expert in gum disease? What do they call that specialist who may work on you? Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on the form that’s found when you click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav. Thanks for playing, everybody.

Andrew: Thank you also for listening to this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Micah: Bye.

Transcript #737

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #737, Third Wheel Worryin’ (HBP Chapter 14, Felix Felicis)


Cold Open


Andrew: Could this be the Horcrux talking? We’ve kind of talked about this concept a few times over the course of Chapter by Chapter.

Eric: I love that we ask this question every time. Yes, the Horcrux is lonely too.

Andrew: [laughs] The Horcrux is looking for love.

Eric: It’s been so long since that Horcrux has gotten laid, and it really needs some romance.

Andrew: The Horcrux tried Tinder, but everybody was like, “Eugh, Horcrux? I’ve seen baby Voldemort. I don’t want that.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Aww.


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’re your Harry Potter friends, here to talk about the books and the movies and the upcoming TV show, so make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app, and that way you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, the line to call Ron Weasley a prat forms on the left, while we discuss Chapter 14 of Half-Blood Prince, “Felix Felicis.”

Micah: Then I’m on the right, baby.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: Oh, because you’re a Ron fan?

Micah: I’m going to support Ron in this chapter. I feel like somebody needs to defend him. It’s not just him.

Laura: Oh, Ron apologist over here.

Andrew: If you’re not going to call him a prat, what are you going to call him?

Micah: A prefect.

Andrew: Oh, good. Excellent.

Eric: Oooh, very similar.

Laura: Another P-word.

Eric: I thought that was a Weasley sweater you were hiding under there, Micah.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Under that hoodie of yours.

Micah: Straight from Molly, baby. Straight from Molly.

Eric: Oh, man. If you’re nice to Ron, you get included in the family. That’s a neat perk.

Micah: That’s right.

Andrew: Well, before we hear Micah’s case in favor of Ron, if you love this show, and like Harry, think conjuring yellow birds out of nowhere is really quite extraordinary magic, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We have exciting plans for the show this year with new content that looks forward as well as back, including new Harry Potter TV show-focused episodes that will kick off in February, so we could use your support in making those happen. And by pledging, you’ll instantly receive two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month. Micah led a good one on Harry Potter hot takes last week; you can check that out now. Plus on our Patreon, you can access our recording studio, ad-free episodes, and a lot more. And I mentioned the look-back episodes; Eric, you actually released something with Meg, right?

Eric: Yes, on YouTube. We played through the Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone PC game from 2001. Many people have very nostalgic, happy memories about this game. It is quite absurd, but it was a lot of fun. The whole play-through is eight hours, and it’s all available on the MuggleCast YouTube. It was a lot of fun. It was me, Meg, and Martha the cat. The feedback so far that we’ve gotten from people who’ve listened or watched has been very lovely, so thanks to everyone who’s checking that out, and the plan is to continue these look-backs, including next month we think maybe on Twitch live with the Chamber of Secrets PC game. So still some details to figure out as far as that goes; I’m thinking maybe Valentine’s Day, because Gilderoy Lockhart loves Valentine’s Day.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Eric: But we’ll keep you guys posted. It’ll be great.

Andrew: Cool.

Micah: Oooh, it’s a Saturday this year.

Eric: It is. Par-tay.

Micah: Which means Friday the 13th.

Eric: You guys should join us.

Laura: Hey, everyone, spend your Valentine’s Day with us on Twitch. Honestly, I think that’d be fun. I’m just saying.

Eric: If you’re otherwise disaffected by this holiday that has a lot of expectations for people…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: This commercial holiday?

Eric: … we will be your boyfriend/girlfriend/they-them friend.

Andrew: Well, if you’re looking for other ways to support us, you can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, or you can tell a fellow Muggle about our show, and you can visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official show gear, like the ones that Eric and I are wearing tonight. Check those out on YouTube for the modeling.


Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve


Andrew: And now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter. We’re discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 14, “Felix Felicis.”

Eric: Yes, and the last time we discussed this was back in January of 2019 – January 21, in particular – and that Episode, 402, was called “Snogging.” Here’s a clip that’s very relevant to that title.

Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 402.

[Sound of memory uncorking]

[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]

Laura: So the word “snogging” is used a lot in this chapter, and it’s making out, right? But for some reason, just the word snogging, it really sounds to me like that would be what it would be like, just people being like [makes obnoxious snogging sound] all over each other, and it’s just not appealing-sounding.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: No.

Laura: It’s just not… I don’t know if I would ever want somebody to describe my kissing style as “snogging.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: You know what I mean?

Andrew: It’s just British slang, I guess.

Laura: Oh, I know. It just sounds funny.

[Sound of exiting Pensieve]

Dumbledore: This memory is everything.

Andrew: Do you still stand by that, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, I do.

Andrew: Okay. Interesting.

Laura: Yeah, not my favorite. Normally I’m really in defense of all the British vocabulary, but not a fan of that one. It just sounds gross.

Andrew: Right. Last week, Eric had a complaint. This week, Micah… or Laura had a complaint.

Micah: I never complain.

Andrew: No, no.

[Laura laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So the meat of this chapter, just jumping right into it, are relationships, right? We’ve known this was coming for some time. Book 6, looking at it as a whole, everybody says, “The hormones! My God, the hormones!” Well, they’re here. They are absolutely upon us, on a chapter that otherwise revolves around this Quidditch match, but we’re going to talk about our characters’ relationships. So let’s talk about the Hermione and Ron situation that kind of overtakes this chapter. It begins with a conversation about the Slug Club, and Ron, as always, is unable to contain his disdain for everything Slug. He doesn’t like the name. He doesn’t like the people that are there, like Cormac McLaggen; what a braggart that dude is. And most of all, he doesn’t like that he’s not a part of it, and his insecurity leads him to making one or two negative statements that causes Harry to go away, come back, and find that, in fact, Hermione was going to ask Ron to the Christmas party, but because he doesn’t like Slug Club things, she can’t do that, and he’s kind of put off and is like, “Oh, you were going to…?”

Andrew: One of the challenges here is that these kids are trying to express their feelings for the first time, and that’s a really hard thing to do. It takes a lot of courage. You’ve got to find the right words. The emotions are butting up against each other because none of them know how to handle it. But I just wanted to check with Laura: As the girl whisperer on this panel, do you think…?

Laura: Oh.

Andrew: Yeah, we established that when you were talking about snogging the last time. Do you think that Hermione is trying to make a romantic push here?

Laura: Apparently, as the representative of all women here, as I’m just now learning…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … I kind of feel like this can be read a couple of ways. I think first and foremost, Hermione is just being a good friend here, because she knows that Ron feels left out, she knows that he’s salty about it, and she’s trying to include him. Now, obviously we know she’s into him too, so I think there’s some part of that that factors into this too. But honestly, she’s being pretty mature in this moment. She’s doing the exact thing that Ron couldn’t do two years ago when he couldn’t ask her to the Yule Ball. And actually, I think what trips Ron up in this moment is that he’s been so hyper-focused on feeling left out of the Slug Club that he didn’t ever consider the possibility that Hermione would invite him to something like that, so instead of thinking about getting in another way with a friend, he’s really hyper-focused on feeling left out of this exclusive club and of Slughorn clearly not thinking very much of him. So I think Ron has been so hyper-focused on that aspect that he hasn’t even given the Hermione angle a thought, and he’s kind of dumbfounded and doesn’t know how to respond in this moment.

Eric: Yeah, what he says to her… he keeps talking to her, “Oh, you’ll surely want to take McLaggen as your partner to this,” and she’s like, “Well, I was going to ask you.” And she’s like, “Well, if you don’t like it, I guess I will take him? If that’ll make you happy?” And Ron is like, “But it won’t.” And I think at least there, that’s Ron again kind of stating his feelings for her, at the very least.

Micah: He’s trying.

Eric: Because we’ve known they’ve liked each other for two years now. For two years, they’ve been doing this little dance.

Micah: Yeah. And this does tie back to our Ron discussion in Episode 734 with the way he reacts to Hermione’s flattery of Harry. We know that Ron is deeply insecure, and he really, at this point, is seeking any means of validation. He’s always played second fiddle to Harry, and he’s in a situation where his two best friends and his sister, who’s a year younger, are a part of this exclusive club, and he’s on the outside looking in. So I do feel a little bit bad for him in this situation. It doesn’t justify the way he treats Hermione in this moment, but I do understand where he’s coming from. If any of us were in that situation, I’m sure we would probably feel a similar way. Not saying we would act the same way.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: He’s also sixth in Line in terms of the Weasley kids, so he’s always been sort of… not forgotten, but he’s just never really been prioritized. None of the kids are, I guess, but I think that’s just a symptom of being in such a large family. And I think another factor here is Ron was very impressed that the Gwenog Jones was going to be present at this Slughorn event.

Eric: The Gwenog Jones of the Holyhead Harpies?!

Andrew: Yes, captain of the Holyhead Harpies! Yes!

Eric: Oh my goodness.

Andrew: And we know he’s a big Quidditch fan, so of course he’s going to be jealous that a big Quidditch player is going to be at this party as well. And he’s like the third wheel, except he’s not there at all.

Laura: Yeah. You know, Micah, I really liked what you said a moment ago about Ron feeling left out of this exclusive club that everyone else he’s really close with is a part of, because that’s true on a couple of fronts, right? It’s true with the Slug Club, but it’s also true with dating and dating experience.

[Andrew sighs]

Laura: So he is simultaneously feeling probably pretty small in this moment, and for someone like Ron, who’s already deeply insecure, that’s just a recipe for disaster.

Eric: He just makes it worse. This whole chapter is him making it worse, though, for his situation, because the person that would be romantically interested, the person that would show you a nice time and just be a good friend to you right now, which is what you need, is the person that you’re antagonizing and being like, “Oh, well, you’re going to be Queen Slug, and I’m just going to be home in the common room all upset.” And it’s like, “What the heck?” But I’ll tell you what, speaking of friends, Harry wishes he were anywhere but here right now. I think Harry has known that this conversation is going to… or would have been coming, ever since two years ago when the whole thing with Hermione and Krum came up. Now that that’s resolved, Harry had to have known this day would come where his friends are talking about their feelings. And his big takeaway, via the inner monologue, is basically, “How does this affect me? What if their relationship goes wrong? Will they be ostracized? Will it be difficult if they don’t talk to each other? Because remember that one time a few years ago when they didn’t talk to each other, and it was really uncomfortable for me, Harry? Or what if they like each other too much, and it’s like a Bill and Fleur situation where we’re all just like, ‘Yuck’?”

Andrew: I think these are valid concerns, actually. And when he says, “Well, what does this mean for me?” He also means, “What does this mean for the friend group?” Because he’s right that a romantic breakup between Ron and Hermione could impact the trio’s friendship. Harry might have to pick a side if that happens too; that would be awful. Laura was just talking about examples of how this pertains to real life dating. Here’s some example… this is a very real situation. When a couple breaks up, the friends often have to decide which side they’re going to stand with.

Eric: That’s such a perfect point. Oh, God.

Andrew: And then you also have to mourn the loss of the friend group that once was. And this very small friend group, Harry wants to keep together, so there is some risk seeing them get together. And I feel bad for Harry! If Ron and Hermione got together, Harry would end up being a third wheel in a lot of situations. Ron and Hermione would go on a date; what’s Harry going to do? Go hang out with Luna, I guess? He could make some other friends; this would be a good opportunity for him to…

Micah: Hagrid.

Eric: Hagrid!

Andrew: Yeah, go hang out with Hagrid. Oh, but what if he’s with Maxime? He’s so lonely, then.

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: No, he’s right. You’re right, Micah. He could find other people. But I understand where Harry is coming from. It’s not just like, “Me, myself, and I.”

Eric: If only there were some other girl somewhere… maybe if Ron had a sister or something, maybe she could date Harry.

Micah: [laughs] I agree with you, though, Andrew; I do think it would change the dynamic. But Harry already has a little bit of a taste for this, because both Ron and Hermione are prefects, and we see how that has to impact Harry when he’s on the train, for example, right? He ends up sitting with Luna and Neville as a result because Ron and Hermione are not around. He needs to find, to your point, other friends. And I wonder if that’s playing a role in all this, and he’s like, “Well, I already kind of know what this is like.” But this would take it to a whole other level, where they would be spending far much more time with each other without Harry around.

Laura: Right, well, and when it comes to the prefect role, there’s an end to that, right?

Micah: That’s true.

Laura: And the end to Ron and Hermione being prefects is not something that is going to cause their friend group to break apart, but potentially the end of their relationship is something that’ll affect the friend group, to all the points raised before. I also just think it’s normal for Harry to kind of selfishly wonder about this, but what I really like about it is he keeps this an inside thought.

Eric: Ohh.

Laura: He never once comes out and tries to get in their way.

Andrew: True.

Laura: That makes him a great friend.

Eric: If it were Ron, he’d be like, “Oh, I guess you guys are going to be King and Queen Slug now at the Christmas party. Oh, it’s going to be annoying.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Right, I know. But no, actually, I think Harry is the most mature character in this chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: He’s mostly been relegated to the role of observer of everyone else’s cray. I mentioned earlier that this chapter does center around the Quidditch match, but as we have a practice… it seems like Ron and Hermione from this brief conversation in Herbology are being polite to each other. But Ron has a bad practice, and the ways in which Ron Weasley sort of spirals in this chapter down to not just ruining what maybe the major advance has just been with him and Hermione, to all out having her magically attack him at the end of the chapter, as we know that she does. I basically broke it down into three steps. First of all, after practice, Ron is just out of control. He didn’t perform well, and as Harry is having to shower compliments on him the entire way back up to Gryffindor tower to make him feel normal about it, they encounter Ginny and Dean kissing. And Ron thinks he’s going to win a fight, but he picks a fight and he loses, and is even therefore more sad and sore about it in general.

Micah: He certainly picks the wrong person to fight with. And he’s just itching for the opportunity to have a go, but I think he should have known better than to have it out with Ginny. And the fact that he was willing to call her a whore, basically, is really out of character for him. That honestly surprised me. I know the author made the choice not to put that word in there, but we’re all meant to assume that that’s what he was thinking. And I just think he’s desperate to find a situation where he can exert his own authority, and he feels like maybe this is it, big brother to little sister, but the rub is that there’s some jealousy at play here, too, because his sister is more advanced – somebody mentioned this earlier – in the world of dating and relationships than he is. So it’s a lose-lose-lose situation for Ron, and he leaves this probably feeling even worse than when he came in.

Laura: Totally.

Eric: Yeah, as somebody with a sister myself, I know that sometimes they know exactly what to say to destroy your ego. And this is kind of what Ginny says to him, getting on Ron, and saying the part that he’s thinking, his insecurity. She identifies it so well, calling him inexperienced. And I know we’ve speculated in the past that it’s the content of what she says that actually leads directly to his eventual overreaction towards the end of the chapter.

Andrew: This is also Ron’s fault. He could be trying to date more, but he’s choosing not to. Ginny has made an effort to actually try and date some people, and now we’re seeing the results of that. So I think Ron is also just mad at himself for spending maybe too much time with Harry and Hermione, and less time hanging out with some other ladies.

Eric: I think that’s 100% true. And something that I have, I think, real sympathy for, for the first time in living memory for me, Andrew, is based on what you said about in real life, when friends break up, it’s messy. Hogwarts is a small, small town. Hogwarts is the tiniest world you’ll ever be a part of. There are five people your age that sleep in the same room as you that are your entire social circle.

Andrew: And you’re stuck with them for years.

Eric: Yeah, and Lavender Brown… so Ron is maybe interested, or Lavender has definitely shown that she’s interested in Ron. She’s Hermione’s dorm mate, we believe. And how awkward would that be if something got out? Or you can tell Lavender is probably boasting about anything that’s happening in the future, and this does happen. But my point is, if anyone is hesitant to start a relationship when they’re at Hogwarts, who can blame them? Because everyone will talk.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, that’s always kind of the downside of going to a small school in general. I went to a pretty small undergraduate college, and it was not as small as Hogwarts, but it was still pretty small, and it was one of those things where, yeah, news of breakups carried very quickly across the campus, and sometimes it could be hard to not run into people that you didn’t want to run into because it’s a small student body.

Eric: So I think maybe one of Ron’s biggest mistakes in this chapter, though, is his attitude the following morning. He’s still sour about it when they’re at breakfast. And Hermione tries to do Ron a solid by warning him about what Harry has just done, which is presumably slipped something into his morning beverage, and Ron not only is not concerned with what Hermione has to add… which, at this point, she has not done anything against him, first of all. Let’s point that out. He is so upset over his own stuff that he downs the drink, is like, “Don’t care. Whatever.” And it’s not even because he thinks it’s Felix Felicis; he doesn’t even realize the implications of this moment until they’re walking to the Quidditch pitch. So Ron, in that moment, has taken somebody who legitimately cares about him, in Hermione, and done something that throws it in her face. I’m just like, “Dude.” And he slept on this and he still feels bad. So I guess I can just appreciate the discomfort surrounding Ron’s character in this chapter, because I can’t say I’ve known anybody who was this insecure or this outwardly raging about it that they would actively destroy friendships. And yet it is a known psychological fact that sometimes when we’re hurting, we lash out.

Laura: Yeah. Hurt people hurt people, right? Isn’t that the saying?

Micah: Would Harry have put anything bad in Ron’s cup?

Andrew and Laura: No.

Andrew: And that’s the thing that bugs me about Hermione reacting this way.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: Yeah. Talk to me, Andrew.

Andrew: She trusts Harry implicitly, especially… what?

Micah: Talk to me about this.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, seriously, Harry would never put Ron in danger, and Hermione knows that. She knows how close Harry and Ron are, so I just can’t figure out why Hermione calls this out in front of Ron.

Micah: Agreed.

Andrew: She has these moments that seem way out of character – we keep highlighting them through the course of this Chapter by Chapter series – and this is another example of that.

Laura: I don’t think it’s out of character. I mean, it’s illegal. That feels perfectly in character for Hermione to be like, “That is illegal. That is unethical.” I think it’s very much in line with how we see her reacting about the Prince’s textbook, too.

Eric: Right.

Laura: In her own way, she’s trying to protect her friend from potentially doing something illegal, or having their drink illegally spiked without their knowledge or consent.

Micah: Okay.

Laura: I think she is trying to do the right thing, but I also think Harry is kind of playing her right here. Harry is kind of using her, because he knows…

Andrew: She’s going to bring it up.

Laura: He’s kind of being Dumbledore. He’s doing the chess master thing, where he’s like, “If I can get Hermione to react the way I want her to react, that’ll be what I need to plant the seed in Ron’s head to make him think he’s gotten this Felix Felicis.”

Eric: You’re right. Ohhh, because that’s what he needs, is he needs a show to… he needs somebody that’s not him to say what he’s pretending to do.

Laura: Right.

Eric: So actually, let’s talk about how Harry is a bad friend to Hermione.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Let’s not forget, though, that Hermione, just a few chapters ago, Confunded Cormac, so if we’re going to talk about cheating at Quidditch, she’s not one to talk.

Eric: Yeah. Well, and that’s kind of Hermione and Harry’s shared secret almost here, is what they’re both doing, or what they both supposedly did to help Ron succeed. And so yeah, I will say to the question of whether it feels… I want to say contrived that Hermione stops Harry. I agree she’s trying to do him a solid, but I also think that maybe there’s this moment where she might want to think about what she brings up, because Harry eventually does say, “Oh, Confunded anyone lately?” which… really mean. God, maybe Harry is a bad friend to Hermione in this chapter. But in general, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on, so bringing it up makes it a little bit more precarious for her. If Harry were to bring up in that moment what she did to get him on the team, Ron would go back to being crushed, Felix Felicis or not, and he would not succeed in the match ahead. So the match goes beautifully. Harry’s plan, Harry’s Machiavellian chess master plan, works. Ron saves a ton of goals. But when it’s revealed what Harry did, rather than being upset or any such way at Harry – Hermione, who points it out, who’s confronting him, saying, “What you did was wrong,” he’s like, “No, I didn’t do anything” – Ron immediately turns sour and says to Hermione, “You thought, you assumed, that I only just performed so well because of the potion, and now I’m cross with you.” And guys, this is a step too far. I’m tapping out here. This is too much. There were so many things that had to go perfectly right in that Quidditch match, including all the Slytherin absences, and it just happened as if he had really taken the potion, and even he thought it. But now he wants to get sore Hermione for suggesting it, and that’s too much.

Micah: Yeah, but the thing for Ron is that he believed it for a minute too.

Laura: Right.

Micah: It wasn’t just Hermione who believed it; it was Ron as well. And so he needs to give himself a little bit of a gut check here before lashing out the way that he does at Hermione. And honestly, I don’t know what crawled up his butt as far as making him so angry in this chapter towards her, but he’s using every opportunity to just lay into her for presumably no reason.

Laura: He’s really jealous.

Andrew: Yeah, I was just going to say that, and it doesn’t get any better in the next chapter either. They’re experiencing romantic jealousy for the first time, Ron is in particular, and he’s showing it in a really ugly way. He doesn’t know how to handle it. Hashtag #HogwartsNeedsTherapists.

Eric: [laughs] Well, yeah.

Micah: And I know we’ll probably touch on this a little bit later on in the discussion, but the jealousy… jealous of what, though? Hermione is not actively dating anybody at this point, so it’s almost like the jealousy is misplaced.

Andrew: Yeah, again, he’s mad at himself, but I think he wishes Hermione just came out and said, “Come to Slughorn’s party with me.” I think that’s kind of what’s happening here. He’s mad that Hermione wasn’t as clear, and he was livid to hear about Cormac. He’s livid to be a third wheel in terms of this party and not getting an invite himself.

Micah: I would say in this moment, it’s less jealousy; it’s more the frustration that Hermione doesn’t have the confidence in him that he could have done what he did in that match by himself.

Eric: Which, pot calling the kettle black. He doesn’t either.

Micah: No, I know. I said that earlier.

Laura: It’s projection. It’s classic projection here. He’s projecting his own insecurities onto her so that he does not have to grapple with feeling that way himself; he can blame somebody else for it. And because he’s already feeling that romantic jealousy that Andrew was talking about, she’s a very natural destination for that frustration. Also, I would just point out, I think a pretty big consideration here is that the guy that Hermione dated in the last couple of years literally used to be Ron’s Quidditch hero.

Eric: Oh.

Laura: Yeah, so he had to watch his Quidditch hero take his girl to the Yule Ball.

Andrew: Yeah, ouch.

Eric: And now he thinks that this other guy who almost did as good or better than him at Quidditch tryouts is going to take Hermione to the Slug Club.

Laura: Even though Hermione has literally never expressed interest in Cormac, by the way. That is all in Ron’s head.

Eric: Yeah, that’s why this is such a crappy thing to do to your friends. But I will say there’s a moment where I do feel very like… I feel what Ron must be feeling, which is Ron has a very clear picture of what he wants, right? For once. He knows that he wants to be dating Hermione. He has no idea how to make that happen, he has no idea what steps he can take, and he just wants it to be done, and when it’s not done magically for him, when the circumstances don’t align 100%, he inverts it and turns angry and is reckless, all because he… which, he has no reason to… if you do nothing – and I’m speaking from personal experience – if you have wants and goals and you do nothing to achieve them, you have no right being angry when they don’t occur. You’ve got to seize the day. You’ve got to look at all opportunities, examine every possible moment. And Ron is just… I think a lot of Ron’s anger, as we said, is directed towards himself, but it’s directed towards himself for not being in a relationship with Hermione, and the reason he’s not in a relationship with Hermione is he’s never tried!

Andrew: Yeah. You mentioned the Slytherin absences, too, a few minutes ago, Eric. Even though Harry does not administer the Felix Felicis, it sure seems like he did, because we hear, “Oh, Slytherin has some absences,” and Zacharias Smith even comments that Ron is lucky while playing.

Eric: Ahh, clever.

Andrew: I think the absences and Zacharias Smith saying “lucky” are meant to be a misdirect for the reader, and that makes it all the better by the end of this chapter when we find out that Harry actually did not administer the Felix Felicis illegally.

Micah: It’s your classic placebo effect, right? At least as it relates to Ron’s performance. Can’t say anything of… the rest is just coincidental. But it’s like… you know when they administer placebos for people who maybe they’re dealing with a certain condition, and all of a sudden they get better? And it’s like, “Well, clearly, then it wasn’t the medicine that was responsible for you getting better; it was your body and your mindset.” And that’s what happened here. Ron performed well because he thought that he had taken something that was going to enhance his performance.

Andrew: It’s all in the head.

Eric: And look at that. He should learn something from this. He should learn that he actually does have what it takes to be a good Keeper. He won’t, but he should.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And speaking of Draco’s absence, he was probably just busy trying to figure out the Dumbledore situation, right? That’s really what it comes down to.

Eric: Yep, absolutely.

Micah: Well, we do inadvertently, indirectly, come across not Draco, but what he is up to in this chapter, because there is a young girl that Harry bumps into that drops some toad spawn. This is right, I believe, as they’re catching Ginny and Dean snogging, and the dropping of the toad spawn was meant to be a signal to Draco, who was in the Room of Requirement up to no good. So we don’t find that out, of course, until later, so one of those… it would either have been Crabbe and Goyle dressed up as a young woman.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, Polyjuiced, yeah.

Micah: Polyjuiced.

Eric: No, it’s interesting because Harry can go on and on and on about Malfoy’s plot, but Malfoy is just doing what he’s doing. He quit… well, he didn’t quit Quidditch, but he just doesn’t show up for the game. He doesn’t care anymore. And it’s an interesting… Draco… we know why his priorities have realigned differently, but it’s the absence of Draco and this recent injury during practice of… what was it, one of their Beaters? That really put Slytherin at a deficit that allows Gryffindor and Ron to win. So I don’t know. I’m just so shocked by how Draco… I guess I’m not shocked. Draco doesn’t care about Quidditch anymore.

Andrew: He just has bigger fish to fry. I don’t know if it’s necessarily about Quidditch; he’s just got bigger things on his mind now. You know when you get those bigger, I don’t know, tasks in life or whatever, your priorities shift, at least for a little while.

Eric: Well, and Quidditch just used to be… the Gryffindor and Slytherin game used to just be a great opportunity for Malfoy to make fun of some Gryffindors, which he loves doing.

Andrew: And now he’s working for Voldemort. He’s got a way different perspective on things right now.

Eric: He’ll really pwn the Gryffindors this way, yeah. He’ll get them later. We have one more moment where he screws something up, which is at the end of the chapter, and I guess celebrating his Quidditch victory, he goes and snogs Lavender Brown, and not just in a quiet place, but in the main Gryffindor common room. Everybody knows everybody. Everybody who doesn’t see him directly will hear about this, because Gryffindor is a small town. And it just breaks something in Hermione, I think, and Harry is left to kind of help pick up the pieces here, and I’m just like, “Ron, in this chapter, you – under my theory – found out that Hermione really does like you. She’s going to invite you to the Christmas party. But in general, this has been a trend for so long, and now you want to go and jeopardize that? You want to throw everything, including the friendship too?” Because what he does isn’t just a romantically harmful move. What he does is he’s trying to hurt Hermione as a friend. He’s trying to hurt her feelings. He just chooses to do this. This is the thing that he chooses to do.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think it all comes back to the projection and the insecurity, because he’s convinced himself, “Oh, see, she didn’t believe in me,” even though he knows deep down, he didn’t believe in himself either, but he’s projecting that onto her. And then he’s going to Lavender, who has very much been making it clear to Ron for the last few chapters that she believes in him and she’s interested in him, so he went to the first person who expressed any level of unconditional interest in him.

Micah: And he’s on a high, too, right? He’s coming off this huge performance, and the opportunity is there, and he takes it.

Andrew: “I can do what I want.” Yeah, when you’re feeling happy like that, you might feel more inspired to do something you wouldn’t otherwise do.

Eric: Yeah. But I mean, he could be kissing Hermione, too, if only he would take the steps necessary to get there, right?

Andrew: But now they’re feuding, so I don’t even know if that’s… I don’t know if Hermione wants that right now.

Laura: Hermione is also not the type to just want to make out in the middle of the common room in front of everybody.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That’s just not who she is. So Ron is… I mean, he’s also just as much putting on a show for everyone else as he is lying to himself, right? Because he’s wanting to show everyone, “See, I have experience too.”

Eric: “I am desirable.”

Laura: Right.

Eric: It’s almost something that Cormac would do.

Micah: Some of it probably stems from his blow-up with Ginny as well, why he chooses to act this way in this particular moment.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Ginny… again, sisters have a way with words. She accuses him of not snogging anyone besides their aunt, having no romantic history, and by the end of the chapter, he’s in somebody’s arms kissing them. So what are you going to do? He fixed it. Thanks, Ginny.

Micah: It’s all Ginny’s fault. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, probably. We’ll talk about Ginny, but first we have to hear a word from our sponsors.

[Ad break]

Eric: Welcome back, and my day has been made, because in terms of people catching feelings for one another, it somehow finally, at long last, dawns upon Harry that he has feelings for Ron’s sister Ginny. Now, oddly enough, it’s when she’s kissing Dean, and they happen to come across it in the tapestry on the seventh floor. But I’m glad Harry arrived at this place.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think across this chapter, we’re seeing that Harry and Ron both feel like the ones being left out, but for different reasons. Harry wants Ginny, Ron wants Hermione, and they’re both coping with them getting the attention of others. So we just keep bringing this word up: jealousy. Romantic jealousy is the name of the game in this chapter. They don’t know how to make those first moves, because they’re so young. You can’t blame them.

Eric: Yeah, and I’ve always liked the metaphor of the chest monster, because it’s kind of funny, but the way in which it’s described, right? Harry and Ron are going through the same exact things; it’s a great point, Andrew. They also are… because Harry is not malicious about it; he’s just quietly fantasizing, instead of acting out. He doesn’t go and punch Dean, although something says he kind of wants to, right? Tear him limb from limb? My God.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But Harry keeps his cool!

Andrew: In terms of ripping Dean limb from limb, Eric, you mentioned the chest monster: Could this be the Horcrux talking? We’ve kind of talked about this concept a few times over the course of Chapter by Chapter.

Eric: I love that we ask this question every time. Yes, the Horcrux is lonely too.

Andrew: [laughs] The Horcrux is looking for love.

Eric: It’s been so long since that Horcrux has gotten laid, and it really needs some romance.

Andrew: The Horcrux tried Tinder, but everybody was like, “Eugh, Horcrux? I’ve seen baby Voldemort. I don’t want that.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Aww. Now I feel really bad for that piece of Horcrux that’s in Harry’s soul, has to watch his teenage eyes. It’s already lived through being a teenager once.

Laura: If we’re going to talk about this potentially being at least somewhat Horcrux-influenced, I think it’s also interesting to think about that with the reading in mind that some part of that Horcrux may have an awareness of who Ginny is…

Andrew and Eric: Ohh.

Laura: … depending on how you want to think about the Horcrux hive mind – I know we’ve talked about that before – so I wonder if there’s any overlap there. But honestly, what I love about this is that it could be both, because who among us has not felt something akin to this when we were really jealous? Especially if it was in a romantic context and we were really young, and we didn’t yet have the words to articulate what we wanted, nor did we have the courage to articulate it.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Seeing other people as people is the hardest journey we all have to make, I think, as teenagers.

Andrew: I think chest monster is a really good way for the author to put it. I see it as kind of a burning feeling inside of you, a burning jealousy.

Eric: Or is that acid reflux?

Andrew: [laughs] Well, I take Tums for that.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Laura: No, that’s only now, because we’re all…

Micah: Old?

Eric: Yeah, we’re all really old.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Generally, I agree. I think the extra level of aggression can definitely be the Horcrux. But as has been stated, it’s frustrating to see the person you like with somebody else. I don’t necessarily recall Harry getting this hot when Cho was with Cedric…

Eric: Right.

Micah: … but he’s entitled to feel the way that he’s feeling. I actually commend him for not acting in a way that would have severely injured Dean.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, because it is … that primal urge is almost like, “I’m going to dominate now. I will take over. There’s a rival for somebody else’s affection. I will crush them.”

Micah: Right, and…

Laura: You know…

Micah: Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

Laura: Oh, sorry. I was going to say, about Cho and Cedric, he was definitely salty about it, but he kept it all to that inner monologue, really, for the most part. And he couldn’t really stay salty for that long because it became clear to him Cedric was just a genuinely nice guy. So I think Harry is pretty mature with how he handles these feelings in so far as he lets himself have them, but he doesn’t generally tend to blow up on people the way Ron does. But I would also say Harry didn’t like Cho that much; I think he likes Ginny a lot more. When he was really infatuated with Cho, it was because she was pretty. He thought she was a really pretty girl, and she seemed really nice. The more that he got to know her, it became clear he didn’t like her very much. So I just don’t… I think it’s kind of apples and oranges to think about why is Harry feeling so strongly with regards to Ginny. He just knows her better and he likes her more.

Micah: I can see that. The other side of this that I thought was really interesting to read was the big brother angle. Harry tries to almost dismiss his feelings for Ginny and play them off as, “Well, I’m like a older brother to her.”

Eric: “She’s off limits.”

Micah: Well, not even that she’s off limits – I mean, I’m sure that’s playing into it – but just the way that he’s thinking about her is like he’s almost using it as an excuse for why he can’t feel romantically about her.

Eric: Yeah, he’s trying to talk himself out of it.

Andrew: And it’s somewhat valid because you have to think that she might be feeling he’s been friend-zoned as well.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Well, it’s so funny to see the script flipped here too. This is a really great connecting the threads moment, but in Book 2, Ginny was the one who was obsessed with Harry…

Eric: Aww.

Laura: … and Harry did not think about her in any sort of… not that… I mean, they were 11 and 12.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But in a crush type way, in that childlike crush type way. He thought it was actually kind of embarrassing coming from her.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: But now the table… the script is flipped, and Ginny is the really cool, popular one who has guys…

Eric: Other things going on.

Laura: … yeah, kind of lined up.

Andrew: Well, and another lesson here is that often timing just does not work out.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Whether it’s 11- or 12-year-olds, or 30-year-olds, 20-year-olds. Sometimes people are in relationships at different times; they’re moving around, whatever. There’s so many different factors, and a lot of relationships end up not working out because of timing. So this is another… that’s what’s cool about the Harry Potter books, and a lot of literature. You can apply these things to different parts of your life, even if the story is about children. You see these things come up later in life.

Eric: Yeah. But Harry is definitely falling for Ginny. Now that the monster has awoken, he takes it to bed, and he straight up has intimate dreams about him and Ginny that carry him through the evening.

Micah: The one thing I just wanted to bring up before we move on with this chapter more broadly – and I kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier – is that some of this does feel a little bit forced. Remember, we’re coming off a chapter where we were just with Dumbledore, we were at the orphanage looking at a young Tom Riddle, and then the next chapter, all of a sudden it feels like we’re being force fed Ron and Hermione and this Harry and Ginny tension. Not that it hasn’t been there at times, but it just… maybe this is just from the reread. It just doesn’t feel as natural.

Andrew: It is a bit of whiplash.

Eric: Definitely. It always felt more natural, I think, to me when reading it when I was younger than it does on this reread. I think if there were… if you picture Book 6, and there’s a couple of levers for different plot threads, the history of Voldemort, right, learning about that, the romance angle. It’s like the romance angle lever was sitting at a one, and now all of a sudden, it’s a nine. We’re 14 chapters in. It wasn’t a gradual increase, where each chapter is getting more and more one thing. It is whiplash; that’s a great way of describing it.

Andrew: But it’s Slughorn’s fault. He didn’t have to do this party. Blame Slughorn, Micah.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Forcing everyone to pair up? Gross.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I feel kind of mixed on this, because on the one hand, I agree; I think in general, I would attribute a lot of that feeling of whiplash to the fact that Ginny, up until this moment, has not gotten great character development. I think if we had seen more of her in Books 3 through 5 – which we did see quite a bit more of her in 5 – but to really only get to spend time with her in Books 2, 5, and now 6, there just hasn’t been a lot of opportunity for the character development that would have made this feel natural. But I always come back to the fact that these are teenagers, and I remember being this age, and people kind of coupled up out of nowhere when we were young. Do you all remember that? It was just like people… they would date and they would break up, and then the next week they would be with somebody else. It was just when the hormones are flying the way that they are at this age, it kind of can feel like whiplash the way people get together.

Eric: That’s a good point.


Odds & Ends


Eric: It’s time for odds and ends, and I have another britishism for you all to comment on. I want this on the record, please.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: They’re in Herbology, they’re wrestling these Snargaluff pods, and just before the lesson, Harry inserts a gum shield.

Andrew: This one wasn’t difficult to me, just meaning a mouth guard.

Eric: [laughs] When I think of shield, I think of knights in shining armor kind of a thing.

Andrew: Or something to guard.

Micah: I did not think of mouth guard at all.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Thank you, Micah.

Micah: That’s not where my head went.

Andrew: And he’s a sports bro. That’s interesting. I feel like they have mouth guards in sports.

Micah: I thought maybe it was like a spell, a gum shield.

Andrew: Oh, that could make sense too. Okay, and just a couple of 7 and 12 alerts. Just wanted to mention that Quidditch practice starts at 7:00 p.m., Ginny accuses Ron of having the experience of a 12-year-old, Harry and Ron walk through a seventh floor corridor right after the fight that occurs… these two numbers are just used a lot, and I don’t know. It constantly entertains me. It’s fun looking out for these two numbers.

Eric: Yeah. Well, thanks for that.


Superlative of the Week


Eric: And now it’s time for MVP of the Week. Who is the most chaotic character of this chapter?

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: So I’m going to give it to Ron for his rage at Ginny snogging Dean. It was a lot.

Eric: I’m going to give it to Hermione, the final confrontation with Ron, with the birds pecking and scraping. Very chaotic.

Micah: I’m going to go with Ginny, just because of number one, taking out Zacharias Smith for his commentary during the Quidditch match.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Dive-bombing!

Micah: And the way she stands up to Ron. Yeah, she’s all over the place this chapter, but in a good way.

Eric: Love it.

Laura: And I’m going to plus one on Ron here. Despite the fact that I feel pretty comfortable psychoanalyzing him this chapter, and I think it’s pretty clear why he’s doing what he’s doing, he’s immature and out of line the entire chapter, so he gets my nomination.

Andrew: Well, speaking of MVP of the Week, on Spotify we received this comment from BeatlesChica about last week’s MVP question concerning Tom Riddle’s most unforgivable moment. They said,

“As a bunmom to a rescued house bunny named Luna Lovefood, I agree with Micah and Eric that Tom’s torturing of the poor bunny as most unforgivable. And thank you Laura for the PSA condemning animal/bunny abuse. Much love to y’all from a fellow Millennial.”

Laura: Thanks.

Eric: Now, was that rabbit named Luna Lovegood, or Luna Lovefood?

Andrew: Oh, sorry, it does say Luna Lovefood. Yes, I guess it was.

Eric: Luna Lovefood! Oh, what a bunny name.

Andrew: Clever. Thanks, BeatlesChica.


Lynx Line


Eric: And now it’s time for the Lynx Line. The question that we had… this is good. We talked about this earlier in terms of timing not being right. We asked if you’ve ever started dating someone that you first knew for years beforehand, or if you were friends with and decided to romantically date, and if so, how did it turn out?

Andrew: So Marta said,

“It wasn’t me, but I know a woman who, during her college years, started going out with the older brother of her high school best friend. They turned out to be the loves of each other’s lives and became my parents.”

Eric: Huge twist!

Andrew: That’s beautiful.

Micah: Wow.

Laura: Beautiful.

Eric: Oh, I love that. Sometimes it does work out. Love it so much. Rachel says,

“I met a guy on Bumble but, after a couple dates with no sparks, we ended up becoming great friends. As the years have passed, I’ve found myself wondering if maybe we could be something more since we’ve both grown a lot since that first meeting.”

That makes sense.

“In a rare moment of bravery, I brought it up with him. He very kindly rejected me and said I’ll always be one of his best friends.”

[Andrew weeps]

Eric: Guys, we should have brought tissues to this Lynx Line. My God.

Laura: Aww.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Anyway, Rachel continues to say,

“I wasn’t too hurt and was genuinely thrilled when he said he had a girlfriend a few months later.”

Andrew: Oh, all right, as long as you’re okay with it.

Laura: I think this is very sweet and mature, and good for you for being brave.

Andrew: Sweet and mature. Couldn’t be me.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Jason says,

“My wife and I went to the same high school and were part of the same friend group. I didn’t realize I had feelings for her until about a month after we graduated. I wrote her a letter telling her how I felt and asked if she’d like to go out sometime. She said yes, and 34 years later, we’ve been married for 26 years and have raised three wonderful kids (all Harry Potter fans, of course!)”

Andrew: That’s wonderful! Hashtag #ShootYourShot.

Eric: After you graduate.

Laura: And Kristen is going to bring us home. She says,

“I met my husband while we were in high school and we instantly became friends. I had a huge crush on him but I was always too afraid to say anything. We went to the same college, and one night out of the blue, he asked me out for dinner and drinks. Turns out he also had a crush on me the whole time, but was too afraid to say anything! We’ve now been together for 15 years, married for the last 4 years, and just bought our first house together.”

Andrew: Awesome.

Laura: Love that.

Andrew: Thank you to the Slug Club members of the MuggleCast Patreon for contributing to this week’s Lynx Line. We ask a new question every week and then read your answers on air. If you have feedback about today’s episode, you can email or send a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via Spotify or YouTube or DM us on social. And next week, we continue our Half-Blood Prince discussion with Chapter 15, “The Unbreakable Vow,” and for the first time in a long time, I’m going to be leading a chapter discussion. Yay! I’m back in the rotation.

Eric and Laura: Yay!

Micah: It’s about time.

Eric: Pulling your weight around here, Andrew. At last.

Andrew: [laughs] Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots more. And if you’re looking for more podcasting from the four of us, listen to our other shows, Millennial and What the Hype?!, for more pop culture and real world talk.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for our weekly trivia game, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: This week’s question has to do with mouth organs: The harmonica was one of two musical… I mean, if people just like the British terms, I’m just going to be okay with it now, and I’m just going to call them by that. Okay?

Laura: [laughs] Hey, that’s growth.

Eric: Yeah, thank you. On December 16, 1965, astronauts Wally Schirra and Tom Stafford played a prank on Mission Control by reporting a UFO, which turned out to be Santa Claus. What songs did the astronauts play on that harmonica/mouth organ that became the first song played in space? It’s “Jingle Bells”! And believe it or not, the recording of this song… we’re not going to play it because it’s actually awful. It was a very old harmonica that could only do eight notes. But it’s on YouTube; check it out when you’re checking out our game play-through. 33% of people said they did look it up, which means 66% of people knew that “Jingle Bells” was the first song played in space. Congratulations to those who submitted the correct answer, including Cheeseshark; Draco’s Etsy Badge and Coin Shop; HAR-mione; How does a plum-velvet-suit-wearing Dumbledore not get chucked out of that orphanage?; Mad-Eye Maroon-y; Rachelpuff; Really sorry I had to look it up; Shout-out to the Smithsonian’s podcast Sidedoor who talked about this in an episode; The Marvelous Mechanical Mouse Organ that was only ever just a marvelous mechanical mouse organ (Brits of a certain age will get this); and at long last, returning to the fray of Quizzitch, our dear friend Tofu Tom submitted.

Micah: Yes.

Eric: Welcome back, Tom. Welcome back. Here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: In Chapter 14 of Book 6, Ron receives the benefits of what’s known as the placebo effect – nice shout-out, Micah – when Harry fakes giving him Felix Felicis before Quidditch. What is the similar term used when a fake pill is given and produces a negative result? What is that called? Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. If you’re already on the website, maybe you’re checking out transcripts or must listens page, just click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav bar.

Micah: Such a good question, Eric. I don’t know the answer.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Micah, do you still find Ron a prefect and not a prat by the end of today’s episode?

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Oh.

Micah: He’s both.

Andrew: Oh! Okay.

Micah: He’s both a prefect and a prat.

Andrew: So you will be in the prat line after the prefect line. Got it.

Laura: See, I thought you were going to come up with another word that starts with P-R, but I guess not.

Andrew: Me too. I was shocked he didn’t.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: What would that be? “Prick”?

Laura: Yeah, there you go.

Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura: Bye.