Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #699, Avada Cow-Davra (OOTP Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: We’re your Harry Potter friends talking about the books, the movies, the forthcoming TV show – we have an update there coming in a minute – so make sure you follow the show in your favorite podcast app; that way you will never miss a new episode. And this week on the show, in addition to a little Harry Potter TV news, grab your tissues, because we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “The Eye of the Snake.” Yet another chapter that’s Slytherin-coded in its title. We had “Lion and the Serpent,” “Eye of the Snake”…
Eric: What’s going on here? It’s so much.
Andrew: I am a Slytherin, so this is my type of chapter title.
Eric: Ahh, right.
Micah: No “Eye of the Tiger.”
Andrew: [singing] “Eye of the tiger…” That’s in Half-Blood Prince, right?
Eric: I was going to say… I was trying to thread the needle on that – but the Gryffindor, the lions – and Micah, you just went out and said it. Thank you for that.
Micah: Well, Andrew is not too far, growing up near Philadelphia, so I figure maybe there’d be a little bit of a tie there.
Andrew: Like Rocky?
Micah: Rocky, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, okay, okay.
News
Andrew: Well, let’s get into some Harry Potter TV show news. It looks like we have our Hagrid: Nick Frost! You may recognize him from the Edgar Wright and Simon Pegg movies The World’s End…
Micah: Nope.
Andrew: … and Shaun of the Dead.
Micah: Nope.
Andrew: He voices a droid, actually, in the Disney+ Star Wars series Skeleton Crew.
Micah: Yes.
Andrew: He’s 52 years old, and I think he’s got the Hagrid look. I see it. Right?
Laura: Yeah, I think this is a great casting. I’m so excited about this. Honestly, I’m feeling really positive based on all the casting news we’ve gotten so far. This is another win, I think.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Eric, do you know this actor? I heard Micah nope-ing, so it sounds like he hasn’t seen these motion pictures.
Eric: Yeah, Micah’s nope-ing was covering up my yep-ing.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Ahh.
Eric: I’ve known Nick Frost for a while – yep, yep, yep, yep – including The World’s End, which also starred Emma Watson.
Andrew: No, no, no, you’re thinking The End of the World, not The World’s End, right?
Laura: Yeah, World’s End was a different movie.
Eric: The World’s End is a pub, right?
Andrew: It is.
Eric: I think they fight or kick Emma Watson at the end of it. I think she’s in that movie.
Laura: No, she’s not.
Andrew: [laughs] You’re thinking of that Seth Rogan movie about the end of the world. What is that one called? The End of the…?
Laura: This Is the End, or something like that.
Andrew: This Is the End.
Eric: The World’s End pub, I’m pretty sure.
Andrew: No, you’re… [laughs]
Eric: Anyway, Nick Frost is great. Hot Fuzz. Everyone knows Hot Fuzz.
Andrew and Laura: Yes.
Eric: And I think he was in a Doctor Who episode. I think he played Santa Claus at some point. So yes, Nick Frost, and not just riffing on the name there. Comedic character. And I think that Hagrid has a lot of heart, but Hagrid is also funny, and especially in the early years, we see sort of the awkwardness, and I think it’s a great opportunity for some humor. Now, because he’s collaborated with Simon Pegg so many times, I said that now I want Simon Pegg to be Peeves. But actually, one of our listeners, Robert, I think I was telling this to, said, “Actually, what if Simon Pegg instead played Phineas Nigellus Black?”
Laura: Ohh.
Andrew: Oh, okay. That’d be cool.
Eric: Which we know was actually the role that Simon Pegg played in Hogwarts Legacy, the likeness after him, and so now that’s my headcanon. Now that has to happen.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, and technically it would be canon for him to be cast. I mean, he originated the role.
Eric: Unbelievable.
Micah: Now, in Skeleton Crew, he played SM-33.
Andrew: Yes.
Micah: Okay.
Andrew: I just said a droid because I thought it was like… I don’t know. I haven’t seen the show.
Micah: Eric, you and I did a episode of What the Hype?! on Skeleton Crew, and I loved SM-33, so maybe that is a good omen.
Andrew: Did SM-33 have some comedic chops?
Micah: I would say so, because…
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: Oh yeah, he’s a swashbuckling pirate droid that does and doesn’t know the key to the Skeleton Crew’s origins. Yeah, it’s a great role.
Micah: But I do think it is important because Hagrid really is the heartbeat of the Harry Potter series. He’s a major role. And I know we’ve gotten casting for Dumbledore, for Snape, presumably for McGonagall, but Hagrid is different. Hagrid is everybody’s best friend, and I feel like this is one of the characters you really need to get right. You can do all right with the trio, but Hagrid, Dumbledore, Snape… that trio, I would say, is extremely important.
Andrew: Well, and I’m also thinking now… we’ve touched before on who they’re prioritizing in terms of casting, and now I’m starting to think we have our Dumbledore, Snape, McGonagall, and Hagrid; I’m wondering if they’re prioritizing the characters who they want to screen test the trio against. Because obviously they can’t screen test these young kids against the entire cast; there’s going to be too many characters, but who are the most important to screen test them against? I would probably say Dumbledore and Hagrid might be number one and two, and then probably Snape and McGonagall.
Eric: Right.
Laura: Yeah, 100%. You think about which adult characters are they going to share the most screen time with? It’s those four.
Eric: So thank you all for correcting me in real time. It turns out I have seen both The World’s End and This Is the End.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Both films apocalyptic, came out in 2013, and their runtime is within two minutes of each other. Very similar movie, I’m going to go out on a limb and say.
Andrew: [laughs] Eric was like, “I was sure Emma Watson and Nick Frost were in a two hour and five minute movie together!”
Eric: “I’m pretty sure, yeah!” No, I was slightly off there. But you know what? I’ve seen both movies, so that’s why. I was like, “I know I’ve seen this.” Okay.
Andrew: Well, maybe James Franco will be cast in the Harry Potter TV show and you can be like, “I saw him in This Is the End!”
Eric: Yes, and Seth Rogen for Slughorn. You’ve heard it here first.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I know we’re six years out, but it’s going to happen.
Andrew: None of the actors we’ve been speaking about that have been reportedly cast in the Harry Potter TV show have been confirmed by Warner Bros., so I guess you could say these castings could still change. John Lithgow continues talking about playing Dumbledore, even though Warner Bros. hasn’t said a peep, which I find so funny. [laughs]
Laura: I actually feel like that’s a very Dumbledore thing to do.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Either he talks too little or he talks too much.
Micah: So is it fair to say that we anticipate a press release at some point in the near future?
Andrew: Well, they’re going to start filming over the summer, so I would think maybe by the time they announce the start of production – because usually there’s an announcement made when that type of thing happens – we’ll get a bunch of cast members. So yeah, we have our Dumbledore, our Snape, our McGonagall, and our Hagrid, if the reports are to be believed. So stay with MuggleCast for more Harry Potter TV show coverage, and follow us in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube. If you love MuggleCast and want to help us soar like Harry on a Firebolt, visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast and pledge today. You’ll get instant access to over 150 – I counted them up the other day – bonus MuggleCast episodes, ad-free episodes, a new physical gift every year, the chance to cohost the show one day, and so much more. We could not do this without you, so we are as grateful for you and your support as Cho is to have a shoulder to kiss and cry on.
Laura: Uh, okay.
Eric: That was so well put. Just like in the book.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Just trying to tie it into the chapter. Other great ways to support us: You can pick up merch at MuggleCastMerch.com. You can leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. You can also send an owl to a friend about the show if they need some Harry Potter friends in their lives. Also, visit MuggleCast.com for more information about the show and how to contact us.
Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner
Andrew: Now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “The Eye of the Snake,” like we did a few years ago, right, Eric?
Eric: That’s exactly right. We last talked about this chapter on Episode 457 of MuggleCast, titled “The Grim Granger.” Came out on March 16 of 2020, and here’s a clip from that.
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.
Ron: What the…?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 457.
Laura: Whereas in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid is happy to accept her help, and then here in Order of the Phoenix, he’s very resistant.
Andrew: “I got this, girl.” Good on Hermione for wanting to help Hagrid, but poor Hagrid gets no help from anybody else except for a student.
Micah: So you think somebody else should have tried to help him out? Give him warning about Umbridge?
Andrew: Maybe, maybe. Does he have anybody who can come to his aid when he needs it? Or does he have any close friends who can help him out from time to time? It just seems like he’s hopeless.
Laura: Yeah. [coughs] Dumbledore.
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.
[Bell dings]
Andrew: Was that, Laura, your COVID cough, or was that a comedic cough?
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: I will neither confirm nor deny.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Too early, too early.
Eric: Yeah, March 16, 2020. That’s the week. Man.
[Laura laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Eric: Well, we are actually going to be picking up that thread as the chapter begins with Hermione’s attempt to right a future, at that point, wrong: Hagrid’s doomed lesson. I call it doomed because it’s… well, it’s doomed for many reasons, but Hermione has attempted to get through to him. “Hagrid, this is what you can expect. Umbridge is really, really awful. She’s going to spot and exploit any weakness.” He doesn’t seem to, first of all, be listening to her; he’s distracted. Hermione spent a good portion of her day down there. She was there for hours, even half an hour just knocking on the door. He wasn’t there; he was off with, we know, Grawp in the forest. But he’s so distracted, he’s not paying any attention, and all she’s trying to do is do a solid for him. But it’s kind of crazy that Hagrid is not receptive to this, because you would think he missed being back as much as they missed him, so wouldn’t he welcome the kind of help that she’s trying to give?
Laura: I do think – not to reiterate something I said in the clip from five years ago – but it is really interesting to see Hagrid’s evolution, and I think this is something that I was trying to get at last week when we talked about the shift in Hagrid’s character. I think because of having had such an important mission given to him, I think Hagrid is feeling an extra level of responsibility. It’s very clear that he’s trying at some points to create a hierarchy between he and the trio, so that he’s not letting children hear more or do more than they need to, and I think that’s kind of what he’s doing here, by trying to take ownership of his lessons, even in the face of what Hermione is warning him about, which ultimately does come to pass.
Eric: That’s interesting because in this same chapter during his lesson, Hagrid tells literally everyone that Dumbledore sometimes sneaks out a Thestral and takes it on long journeys. I’m pretty sure Dumbledore didn’t want that fact known, so Hagrid is a great agent for Dumbledore.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: He tells them… all the secrets are coming out.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, Hagrid… we’ve known him since Book 1 to be a horrible secret keeper.
Eric: Loose lips. But yeah, I think that’s very interesting about him wanting to come off as more of an adult. I think he doesn’t… and again, with Umbridge, I think we all have a tendency to do this: If somebody told you that a teacher like Umbridge was coming in Book 5, and we hadn’t read Book 5 yet, how much can you really understand about how awful she is, or how much prep needs to happen to handle her? So I think it’s not until she’s there in front of him that he really sees what’s going on.
Laura: Agree.
Eric: But regarding the lesson itself, it is Thestrals in the Forbidden Forest, which… I decided to break the lesson down into pros and cons. There’s one pro, and there’s six or seven cons we’re going to discuss. [laughs]
Andrew: I did want to say – before we get to your pros and cons, Eric – Hagrid has to make a shrieking cry to get the Thestrals to come out of hiding, which scares the students. And also, I’m trying to picture Hagrid doing a shrieking cry, and that’s hard to imagine, isn’t it?
Laura: I imagine it sounding like a bird cry, you know?
Andrew: “CA-CAW!”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: Essentially, yeah.
Andrew: I think I just disturbed my sleeping dog when I did that.
Laura: Probably.
Eric: I picture it more of like the Obi-Wan Kenobi – not to take it to Star Wars again – but when Obi-Wan tries to ward off, I think it’s the sand people, he makes this Krayt dragon shriek. I think it’s like, “Wrahhhh!” kind of thing, but better. That, to me, is kind of what it sounds like in my head.
Micah: I think what it shows, though, is that Hagrid has an understanding of these creatures that maybe other professors or other people who would approach teaching this course wouldn’t necessarily have. We know that he has been able to basically create this group of Thestrals, which doesn’t seem… almost domesticate them in a way, right? That’s not something that I think many people have been able to do, at least from what we’re told in this book. But I likened the sound maybe to the same sound as when Aberforth gets a hold of one of his goats.
Eric: Okay.
Andrew: [laughs] That “Okay” from Eric sounded like a “All right, we’re moving on.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: “All right, Micah.”
Eric: The Thestrals like to watch, and so they’ll come out to that sound.
Laura: Oh. I think we should keep it moving.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Yeah, so anyway…
Micah: Let’s, though, just before we jump into the lesson itself, I do think it’s important to connect some threads here back to Prisoner of Azkaban, because this lesson is very similar to a lesson that happens with the hippogriff Buckbeak, where there’s just a lot of nonsense happening throughout the course of the lesson, and it ultimately results in Draco getting injured. We’re dealing, of course, with winged creatures in both instances, and in one case… actually, in both cases; I think the students are quite fearful of Buckbeak, and they’re also quite fearful of Thestrals for very different reasons, so there is a through line here going back to Book 3.
Eric: I like that.
Laura: Yeah, I love that. And I think we can pull the thread a bit more, too, and say that in both cases, Harry is kind of the odd man out, if you will. He’s, in Book 3, one of the only students who’s affected by Dementors, and now he’s one of the only students that can see Thestrals. Poor Harry.
Eric: Why is it always him?
Micah: And in both cases, Hagrid ends up in trouble with the Ministry.
Laura: Yep.
Andrew: Oooh.
Eric: Yeah, that’s pretty good. Well, it was mildly satisfying to see Draco a little worried about the forest.
Micah: A bit.
Eric: He’s kind of freaking out. “What did he say? What did he say was in there? Huh? Huh? These are going to be trained, right? Not like last time?” Yeah, you better squirm, buddy. So that was pretty satisfying. But actually, to your point, Micah, about what you were saying, he says that he was the only person in Britain who’s trained Thestrals, and now, that does speak to his competence. I don’t know so much that he’s the only one that could do it as he is the only one that maybe would do it, that would see the value in these creatures. Maybe… I’m sure it’s difficult, but at the same time, Thestrals aren’t from what it seems like on anybody’s radar, largely because so few people can see them. It’s just a really interesting niche that Hagrid himself has carved out. So it does go to his credit, I think, overall, and when we’re looking at this class in terms of pros and cons, ultimately the pro I have is that Thestrals are interesting. They ultimately… even if you can’t see them, there was enough with this lesson to unnerve people, and I don’t know if that’s always a positive thing, but ultimately, I think he had the whole class’s attention probably the whole time.
Andrew: Definitely, especially because only a small number of the students can see the Thestrals and the others can’t, but then they’re looking at this dead cow, and something seems to be chomping away at it, and they can’t see what that is. So it’s definitely a fascinating lesson, and one I would be interested in seeing Hagrid teach me. I don’t want the Blast-Ended Skrewts and some of these other strange ones.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: Right, they get a mention too, like, “At least it’s not Skrewts.” But Harry is just happy that he’s not crazy.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: The fact that he happened into this lesson and he sees these winged creatures that he’s been looking at all year that pull the school carriages. He’s so relieved to… he’s about to figure out what these creatures’ deal is, so that’s a nice resolution. I mean, ultimately, even though I just said that the class is interesting enough to keep everyone’s attention, I don’t know that it is the world’s biggest setting-yourself-up-for-success to teach a lesson on something that only three, or if Hagrid didn’t know, a very small number of students are going to be able to see. Yes, people are going to be able to see the dead cow get eaten; how enticing will that be to watch, though? And for a prolonged period of time, that’s kind of gross. You’re going to be relying on what the students who can see them see, and it looks like everyone who can see them besides Harry is ill. The Slytherin that can see them is watching its tail or something; Neville is beside himself, kind of getting creeped out. So ultimately, although they’re interesting, they’re off-putting. I don’t think this is actually the world’s best choice for Hagrid.
Andrew: I was kind of hoping that Hagrid’s dead cow was going to activate the students’ ability to see Thestrals somehow.
Eric and Laura: Ohhh.
Eric: That would’ve been really cool.
Andrew: Okay, they saw death with the dead cow maybe. [laughs]
Laura: Well, yeah.
Andrew: This sounds really bad, but Hagrid kills the cow right in front of them.
[Andrew: and Laura laugh]
Eric: “And today, class, we have a prisoner from the Ministry of Magic here. He’s been sentenced to death.”
Andrew: “Everybody say 1, 2, 3, Avada Kedavra!” Avada Cow-davra. Abracadabra, Gaga ooh-la-la.
Laura: “You all learned the Unforgivable Curses last year.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I think for research purposes, you would think there was some way to temporarily activate the ability to see Thestrals if you had not seen a human die before, right? Doesn’t that kind of make sense?
Eric: Well, yeah, and if anything, powder, right? Baby powder, or something that’s a light dusting…
Micah: Pixie dust.
Eric: Pixie dust, of course.
Laura: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say here. I feel like this… it is a con, based on the way the lesson happens, but I feel like this could be a pro if you did it the right way. By finding a way for every… the 95% of people who can’t see them, still finding a way for them to engage… like, let them touch the Thestrals. We know they’re domesticated; let people who are feeling brave enough get up and sit on one’s back. We know Dumbledore takes them out sometimes. We know everybody’s going to be riding a Thestral at the end of this book. So I think there are tactile ways that people who can’t see them could be engaged. And then honestly, the name of the game from a teacher perspective is if you can find a way to get your students to engage with each other over the material, that’s a total win. So if you could have these students talking with and educating each other about what they’re learning about Thestrals based on what they can or can’t see, it could have been a really cool lesson.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: The reason why it’s such a big miss, though, for me is because this is Hagrid’s first lesson back, and he’s tripping over his own feet because he’s not really doing a great job of setting himself up for success. He’s showing them a creature that only a very small portion of the students can actually see and therefore engage with. Think it’s even mentioned at one point that these are NEWT-level creatures, and Hagrid is bringing them to an OWL-level class, and it’s only further complicated by the fact that Umbridge shows up and is going to make his experience even that much worse than it already is. And I’m not sure what Hagrid could have done to make this go right at the end of the day. It’s clear that he’s still going through quite a bit. The students have also just come off a series of classes where they’ve been really well educated by Grubbly-Plank, so it’s kind of like the only direction that it can go is down, and Hagrid makes sure that it goes really far down. And I love Hagrid, but it’s just a tough spot for him to be in right here.
Laura: I agree. Hagrid is always way more concerned with making a big splash and impressing people, getting the “ooh” and “ahh” factor, so he’s not thinking two steps beyond that, of like, “Okay, well, when I introduce Thestrals that 95% of my class isn’t even going to be able to see, what then?”
Eric: Right.
Laura: Feels like that. It’s the next steps part that he’s frequently missing.
Eric: And Umbridge’s ultimate inspection during this lesson – though she’s a little late, which is rude – was not unannounced. She apparently left a letter with him, and still he brushed it off, despite all of Hermione’s advice. And so it’s kind of his own fault, anything that should happen to him, although it’s sad to see because she clearly has it in for him for multiple reasons. But ultimately, Umbridge can’t see what’s going on either. If Hagrid had actually designed the lesson – to Laura, what you’re saying – in a way where the Thestrals can be seen, or at least viewed somehow by the class, then Umbridge could maybe see the merit of teaching these today. But he should have just stuck to Grubbly-Plank’s lesson plans. Apparently, it was all worked out.
Andrew: I actually think the fact that many students can’t see them does make it a good lesson, because it’s fascinating how they can see them. Now, I do agree; maybe he needs some photos of these, some illustrations of what the Thestrals actually look like.
Eric: Illustrations, yes.
Andrew: Or how about say, “Hey, Harry. Hey, Neville. Can you describe what it looks like for the rest of the class?”
Laura: Yep.
Micah: That’s a great point. I did want to call BS, though, on Umbridge not being able to see them.
Laura: Right.
Micah: It seems very strange that someone her age wouldn’t be able to see Thestrals, and I know you actually have to see death, which is different than just seeing a dead body or a dead cow, but she seems to be a middle-aged woman at this point. I know it adds to the story, the fact that she can’t see them, because it just makes his lesson even that much worse. But it is a little surprising, especially considering the type of person that she is, and we know that she’s very much in league with Voldemort as the series progresses.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: She seems like the kind of person who would not turn down an opportunity to witness an execution, you know what I mean?
Eric: Oof, that’s well put, yeah.
Laura: So I don’t know; I guess I would wonder what would be the reason for her to pretend she couldn’t see them? I mean, I guess it adds to the ruse she’s putting on.
Andrew: Yeah, to be contrarian.
Eric: The fact that he planned something so haphazardly, she could easily put herself on the side of the students. And we’ve all read the chapter; she goes around and basically recruits volunteers to make fun of the lesson, ultimately, and she uses their feedback, even appropriating Neville’s bemused stare to say that he’s afraid of them and intimidated. And there’s this whole half-breed thing, there’s this whole Hagrid’s intelligence thing, but she’s just absolutely running amok. And in fact, why do this during a Gryffindor/Slytherin lesson? This is another problem. Hagrid allowed himself to get inspected in a room – or a forest clearing – full of his enemies. All of the Slytherins hate him. Many of them are quoted by the Daily Prophet as saying negative things about him in the past; if not the giant article of last year, then the first one with the hippogriff, Buckbeak, that we were talking about earlier. So he’s surrounded by his enemies, and it’s just not smart for him to have taken any risks ultimately, and I know that’s kind of Hagrid’s thing is taking risks, but he should have played it way more safe or done the work to follow up. He should have even told Hermione.
Andrew: Maybe part of the reason he didn’t think this through is because he was just excited to be back at school and excited to be teaching again, so he was just kind of riding on joy.
Eric: Well, just instead of saying, “Okay, Hermione, I’m not listening to you about anything,” he should have said, “I’m not going to listen to what you want me to teach, but here: I’m doing Thestrals. How do I make it so more people can see them?” Something like that, and she would have helped him with that. She would have had the exact spell ready.
Micah: Part of me thinks he’s just distracted with everything else that’s going on with Grawp, which we don’t know about yet at this point. But it seems like having just gotten back from his trip with Madame Maxime, having really not presumably had a whole lot of time to talk with Dumbledore about that, and the fact that his brother is beating the crap out of him every time that he goes to visit him, I just don’t think his attention is really focused on the lesson. And honestly, this is kind of an easy lesson for him, because these are creatures – as you said before, Eric – that he has domesticated and has been able to get under his control, so he doesn’t really necessarily have to worry about the lesson itself getting out of control, because he seems to have a level of control over the situation itself. But it leads to something I wanted to bring up later, which is, how can he have been back for even just a day or two and not have talked to Dumbledore? Not have gotten any…? Going back to what Laura said in the flashback, how is it possible that he didn’t get a heads-up on Umbridge? It makes no sense to me.
Laura: Well, do we pin that on Dumbledore?
Micah: He’s the headmaster! 100%. Sorry, Andrew.
Laura: I mean, if Umbridge came to see… it’s kind of shocking to me that Umbridge came to see Hagrid before Dumbledore tried to see Hagrid.
Andrew: Do we know for sure Dumbledore and Hagrid haven’t spoken since he’s been back?
Eric: I don’t think we know for sure.
Laura: No, but…
Andrew: Because he just went on a mission for him, so it leads me to believe that they would have checked in. And sure, what if Dumbledore said to Hagrid, “Umbridge is going to be coming through one of your classes; just go with it”? It would be strange that Dumbledore didn’t try to suggest what type of lesson to do, but maybe Dumbledore is also like, “Yeah, she’s going to be making changes at the school, but they’re going to be temporary, let’s hope, and I can undo all this after.”
Eric: Yeah. The weird thing is… the only thing that calls into question for me whether Dumbledore has talked to Hagrid or not is the circumstances by which Hagrid came back. He and Madame Maxime broke things off when he wanted to take Grawp back with him, and that was not Dumbledore’s orders. Dumbledore probably wants nothing to do with Grawp. Dumbledore, if he knew, would probably be like, “That’s a horrible idea to bring Grawp into the Forbidden Forest,” and so I’m saying it’s Hagrid’s own direction and personal business that maybe scuttled any chance… maybe Hagrid is avoiding Dumbledore, even, because he doesn’t want Dumbledore to know what he’s using the forest for.
Laura: Yeah, and I think that’s the thing with Hagrid right now; he’s so guarded. Hagrid is so guarded right now. He’s not letting down the walls; he’s not letting the trio or anyone else fully see what’s going on with him right now. I do find it interesting thinking about what Dumbledore would have said or told Hagrid to do if Hagrid had just been upfront that he had found his brother. I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would have said, “No, you’ve got to leave him there.” I think Dumbledore would have tried to help in some way.
Andrew: I agree.
Laura: I don’t know if he would have agreed to keeping him in the Forbidden Forest, but I mean, Dumbledore has done lots of things that we’ve chronicled here on this show that don’t necessarily make sense. [laughs]
Eric: He could help Hagrid airlift Grawp to a refuge of some sort where he could visit him. Yeah, yeah, I agree, ultimately. So really, the last con I have here is just that, for the whole death thing that goes on, Hagrid states that the bad omen surrounding Thestrals is wrong; they’re actually really intelligent. From what we see, he doesn’t actually explain or demonstrate the Thestrals’ intelligence, so somebody like Parvati Patil, who only knows about Thestrals because of Trelawney talking about them, is more inclined to believe that they are, in fact, a bad omen, and think that Hagrid has doomed the whole class to something bad, because even though the Thestrals are right in front of them, again, they can’t see them. And if Hagrid is just… they’re going to take Hagrid’s word for it? Why would they take Hagrid’s word for it that they’re smart? Have you guys ever seen a raven… what is the word? A raven show at the medieval renaissance fair or something like that. Those birds are brilliant, and they prove it. They show them doing things that are very, very interesting. You’re like, “Wow, how didn’t that ever occur to me that birds could be that smart?” That’s what Hagrid should have done. But because he doesn’t, I ultimately don’t think he threads the needle on this whole “They’re not cursed” thing. I think unfortunately, it actually invites more speculation from the Parvati Patil types to be a little bit more nervous.
Micah: The one thing, though, that Hagrid does a really good job of throughout his classes is he does find a way to demystify a lot of the stigmas around these creatures, and so I’m more inclined to side with him in this case than I am with somebody like Trelawney. And it is maybe coincidental that we’re pitting two professors here against each other that ultimately are going to end up getting sacked from the school because they’re not really good at their jobs.
Andrew: So let’s talk about Umbridge.
Micah: No.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: We’ve mentioned a couple times now she comes in to the class. We were talking last week about how Umbridge might be intimidated by Hagrid, having just met him and they’re standing in his hut, so maybe that’s why she’s not pushing the line of questioning a little more, that night, anyway. But here, during his class, she doesn’t seem intimidated at all. She’s muttering these negative notes that she’s taking out loud. I’m wondering if she feels like she has safety in numbers by having the students around her. It seems clear at this point, Umbridge loves attention. When she has appeared in other classrooms as well, she’s also asking the professors questions while they are trying to teach; she is interrupting the lessons, so she’s an attention you-know-what. Do you think she feels confident in front of Hagrid in this scene because she’s surrounded by the students, and she gets to taunt him face-to-face with an audience?
Eric: Yeah. Well, she’s getting energy. And it’s not just students; it’s her future Inquisitorial Squad. It’s the Slytherins, again, that just love her. And so yes, I do think she’s playing off of them very well, and that could be a big reason why she’s not more intimidated by Hagrid.
Micah: I do think she almost has a sixth sense about insecurity or weakness, and she can definitely sense that. She probably sensed it after her initial conversation with Hagrid just a few days prior, and we know that she’s likely been filled in on Hagrid as a professor at Hogwarts: the articles that were referenced earlier, the prior experiences that he has, going all the way back to his time at Hogwarts with the Chamber of Secrets; that likely got out at some point. What happened with Buckbeak in Harry’s third year… so Hagrid is a known entity, and this whole lesson is a complete clown show for him, and she’s loving every minute of it. That’s the reality of it. And as was said, she can play off of Draco and Pansy and all of the Slytherins, and even some of the Gryffindors, to some extent; she’s able to twist Neville’s words to her own advantage. And I mean, I think she’s just here for the fun. I’m actually frustrated that she can just show up whenever she wants and interrupt the lesson, to Andrew’s point earlier, but she’s loving every minute of this.
Eric: She made up her mind already before setting foot in the forest.
Micah: Of course she did. But let’s be real, she’s walking in on a lesson where you can’t actually see the lesson. How is that going to work in Hagrid’s favor?
Eric: Right, so the cons are pretty steep, y’all.
Laura: Yeah, I think Umbridge just didn’t get enough attention as a child.
Andrew: Yeah, I’ll go with that.
Laura: Does this occur to anyone else? She’s very performative, very theatrical, wants all eyes on her…
Andrew: And now she’s in a school amongst young people getting what she wished she had as a young person.
Micah: I’m glad you brought that up, Laura…
Eric: Yeah, we’re actually going to talk about, or look into Umbridge’s childhood.
Micah: Yeah, there’s a great write-up on WizardingWorld.com about…
Andrew: HarryPotter.com, excuse you.
Micah: HarryPotter.com.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Potter-No-More.
Micah: It all redirects.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But it details her history and the lead-up to her time at Hogwarts and what follows that. One quote that I pulled from it just in terms of relating it to her opinions of Hagrid based on the fact that he is half-giant… and she tries to also make out that because of that, maybe he’s a little bit slow on the uptake; maybe he’s not as smart as everybody else. But I think a little bit about her childhood sheds some light on this. It’s said,
“Even at 17, Dolores was judgmental, prejudiced, and sadistic, although her conscientious attitude, her saccharine manner towards her superiors, and the ruthlessness and stealth with which she took credit for other people’s work soon gained her advancement.”
Talking about at the Ministry. I thought it was important to note her brother was a Squib and her mother was a Muggle. Her father was a Ministry official that she eventually disassociated herself from. He worked at the Department of Magical Maintenance and was essentially a janitor, and she paid him off to disappear/retire early. So this should give you a sense for Dolores. And it’s worth noting that growing up, she, for the most part, did side with her father because her father was of magical blood. Less so with her mother; actually blamed her mother for her brother being a Squib. And at some point, the family split, and Dolores stayed with her father and her brother went off to live with her mother, and I’m assuming they never spoke to each other again.
Eric: I’m assuming they were a lot happier after that split.
Micah: They probably were. But yeah, not a great childhood by any stretch, it seems like, for Dolores. But can see how she became the person that we see in Order of the Phoenix.
Eric: Yeah, she’s made advancement her number one goal and the number one mark of her own success and self-worth. Even if she gets those advancements through trickery, she doesn’t see it that way. She doesn’t see it as underhanded; she sees it as doing what she must, so pretty wild. But yeah, ultimately, we leave this part of the chapter behind. Hermione has this righteous anger; she sees exactly what Umbridge is doing here, and why Umbridge is doing it too, because she doesn’t like half-breeds.
Andrew: It’s tough to read watching Umbridge talk to Hagrid slowly, to “make sure he understands” what she is saying. You can understand Hermione’s frustration. I think her frustration is also the reader’s frustration, especially as you get older and read these chapters back.
Laura: Yeah. I will say, it wasn’t the most ringing endorsement, though, for her to basically say, “And that wasn’t even that bad for Hagrid!”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: But I understood what she meant, of course. It was just funny.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. But there’s more to come with Hermione a little later on. The one thing Harry is glad for is that there is, of course, the last Dumbledore’s Army session of the season tonight, which is very exciting, in the Room of Requirement, and it just goes well. It’s a review lesson kind of thing, and I think these are very important, especially… you guys remember. We’re looking forward to break; maybe we’re not all that interested in learning new things.
Andrew: Yeah, you’ve kind of got senior-itis, summer-itis… all you can think about is the summer break, the winter break, graduating… yeah, you’re kind of checked out.
Eric: Yeah, so they kind of do a greatest hits of what they’ve learned so far, and I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with that. In fact, Neville keeps getting better; Harry really sees some marked improvement. Everyone is in good spirits. The Room of Requirement was decorated when Harry walked in, but he fixed it, and so it’s a little less decorated. He took down all the baubles…
Micah: Shout-out to Dobby.
Eric: Yeah, shout-out to Dobby for that. He took down all the baubles with his face on it, apparently that say “Have a Harry Christmas,” which I think is hilarious.
Andrew: I think it’s hilarious too. I’m surprised that didn’t really stick within fandom. Why isn’t there merch that says “Have a Very Harry Christmas” or something? I think that’s so cute. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, I don’t know.
Laura: Because they didn’t do it in the movie. If they had done it in the movie, there would have been merch.
Eric: That’s a good point.
Andrew: So you’re saying that we should definitely Max that so we can get some merch.
[“Max that” sound effect plays]
Andrew: I wonder if it’s in the… if any Etsy creators have done that.
Micah: And Luna was a fan, too, right? She shows up.
Eric: Luna did. Yeah, Luna was the first to arrive, which is very lovely.
Andrew: [imitating Luna] “Nargles.”
Eric: But yeah, so I wanted to talk about the end of this lesson, of course, when there’s a little bit of romance going on. Harry ultimately has his first kiss.
Andrew: Hold on; let me go put on some chapstick for this big moment.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: We’ll take a quick break, and we’ll be right back.
Eric: Oh, is it time for your first kiss as well, Andrew?
Andrew: Yes, live on MuggleCast! 20 years into the show.
Eric: We have to drive you to a… take you to a parking garage for your first kiss.
Andrew: Wait, why are you saying parking garage?
Eric: I’m just saying parking garage. Isn’t that where you had your first kiss?
Andrew: Yeah, I’m weirded out you remember that. [laughs]
Micah: Eric was there.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Jesus, what else does Eric know about it?
Eric: We talk about this on the last episode in which this came up.
Andrew: Ohh, okay. I was like, “Geez.” Little update on “Have a Very Harry Christmas” merch on Etsy: There is “Have a Very Harry Christmas” merch on Etsy, but it’s all Harry Styles-related, not Harry Potter.
Eric and Laura: Ohh.
Micah: We gotta change that.
Eric: See, that shows how long they waited, the fact that Harry Styles was first born and then rose to prominence…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: … in that whole inter-waiting time before and nobody got on the Harry train when it was Harry Potter. So here’s a quote from the chapter:
“Ron and Hermione left before he did; he hung back a little, because Cho was still there and he was hoping to receive a Merry Christmas from her.
‘No, you go on,’ he heard her say to her friend Marietta, and his heart gave a jolt that seemed to take it into the region of his Adam’s apple.
He turned and saw Cho standing in the middle of the room, tears pouring down her face.
‘Wha-?’
He didn’t know what to do. She was simply standing there, crying silently.
‘What’s up?’ he said feebly.
She shook her head and wiped her eyes on her sleeve. ‘I’m – sorry,’ she said thickly. ‘I suppose… it’s just… learning all this stuff… It just makes me… wonder whether… if he’d known it all… he’d still be alive…’
Harry’s heart sank right back past its usual spot and settled somewhere around his navel. He ought to have known. She wanted to talk about Cedric.”
Eric: Uh, yeah. So this doesn’t quite go as planned for Harry. Let’s pour one out for Harry’s would-be romantic time in the ROR.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I mean, I don’t know what he’s thinking. Her boyfriend just died six months ago.
Eric: So this is clear to you, like what Hermione says later. This makes perfect sense…
Laura: Oh, 100%.
Eric: … for Cho to be in the emotional state that she’s in.
Laura: Completely. Is it right that she’s putting Harry on the spot in the way that she is? No, but Cho is also a child who is struggling with severe trauma here, so neither one of them is really equipped to deal with this.
Eric: Okay. Yeah, I honestly think that that’s fair. The funny thing about this – and at this point reading this, I just find it really amusing because we’re going to get to this later – but all first kiss stories, or quite a lot of them, are probably a little embarrassing to look back on, or a little unexpected, or they have a surprise element. And so in that way, Harry Potter’s first kiss actually greatly tracks with, I think, the real world counterparts that some of us may have experienced. And for that reason, reading this, I just have to laugh. There’s this line: “She hiccuped again. She was very pretty even when her eyes were red and puffy.” [laughs] It just… and Harry can count all the tears on her cheeks as she moves closer, and it’s just like, “Man, this is not it.”
Laura: No. First kiss stories are always awkward and fumbling because you don’t know what you’re doing; nobody knows what they’re doing, but I think Hollywood and culture kind of builds that moment up, so it puts a lot of pressure on it, and I think that probably contributes to making it awkward.
Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big moment in your life, though. I mean, you are getting…
Laura: Up until that point, right?
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: I guess.
Eric: Well, what would we do? Okay, if we were Harry, could we rightly say in this scene that we would know any better or do anything different than what he does? I think later he says he pats her on the back.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yeah, it would have been better to give her a hug, but I get it. It’s awkward.
Andrew: So let’s just be clear about something here: Who actually made the move?
Micah: That’s what I was going to ask.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Because it ends with “She was much too close. He could see every tear clinging to her eyelashes…” Dot, dot, dot.
Eric: [laughs] See, this is hilarious. This is really…
Andrew: Then “He returned to the common room half an hour later.”
Eric: It’s not Harry. Harry does not make the move, because he wishes he weren’t there.
Andrew: Right, that’s why I’m thinking it was Cho, too, and the emotions were getting to her. I mean, and she is the one that says to Harry, “I really like you, Harry,” so she is kind of making the first move in that way too. So if Cho were getting closer to me while crying, I think I would take a step back or not give her too much time to kiss me, because I’d be like, “Wait, what’s happening here?” It’d be one thing if she wasn’t crying, but she is. I don’t want my first kiss to have tears in between our lips.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Yeah, I mean, body language would help. But also, Harry does make for the door, and Cho kind of stops him and is like, “Don’t go, wait, I’ll be better.” But she has nothing to be ashamed of here, is the thing. Her emotions are valid, but it doesn’t make for, ultimately, a good… they just… to take Laura’s perspective, too, I think they both don’t have the maturity to really navigate the breadth of what they’re both feeling for one another. I think Cho might feel like socially she has to do this. I mean, it’s under the mistletoe; there’s kind of an obligation.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Or she wants… I mean, it’s like double dog dare and mistletoe, you don’t ignore them. You just can’t do it.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: I don’t know if I’d go that far.
Laura: Well, the thing is I think they want to kiss each other; I just think not under these particular circumstances. But I think Cho is happy for any reason to make a move.
Eric: I mean, if it doesn’t happen now, when will it happen? I think is the question.
Micah: Eventually. Well, with mistletoe, too, let’s not forget when Harry first comes into the room, there’s mistletoe that Luna points out, and he ducks out of the way because he doesn’t want to potentially engage in that situation with her. So that’s what leads me to believe that in this instant, there’s definitely a desire on the part of both of them for this to happen; it’s just the circumstances that are not quite right here.
Andrew: And it’s the best opportunity for them so far. There’s feelings in between them right now, they’re alone, it’s Christmas, mistletoe, Santa’s coming…
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Nick Frost?!
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Despite the tears, they are feeling the romance right now.
Laura: Yeah. And they’re getting ready to go on holiday break, too, so they’re not going to see each other for a month.
Micah: Yeah, Harry is getting ready to take a bite out of Mr. Weasley.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: He’s got to prep. He’s got to get his chapstick.
Micah: That’s what this was. This was prep for what’s about to happen.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: This was prep, yeah.
Laura: This was practice?
Eric: Man.
Andrew: Did Mr. Weasley cry too when he was bit?
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I guess!
Andrew: Harry makes all the boys and girls cry. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, so I just… we talked about this; we’ll talk about it again. I think real life can be this messy. But back at the common room – and this is where Hermione shines – Harry is almost catatonic. Harry is back with his friends; he’s not sure if he wants to tell them what even happened, but Hermione just had another perception about this. She, I think, guessed that something like this might happen, and she actually knows a lot about Cho’s current mental state, and even to the degree where one of the things she tells them is that Cho is worried she’s going to get thrown off the Ravenclaw Quidditch team because she’s flying poorly. How would Hermione possibly know that much detail about Cho? But it’s all there. Hermione leads the charge in explaining what’s going on, because Harry and Ron just don’t get it.
Andrew: Well, I was going to ask, does Hermione know for sure because she’s heard through the grapevine? Or maybe she’s heard Cho talk about it herself? I don’t think she’s making a lot of assumptions here, necessarily.
Eric: Right.
Laura: No, I think that she’s reporting accurately on what’s going on. She mentions that Cho is crying a lot in the loo between classes, so there’s just a lot of common areas where Hermione could very likely overhear some of that happening. And Hermione, we know that she’s someone who pays attention, especially when it has to do with her friends, and she knows that Harry likes Cho, so she’s paying attention to what’s going on with Cho. We know that she’s been paying attention to how much Cho has been paying attention to Harry, so she’s been making a point of it. I think she’s just been being observant.
Eric: Yeah. Ron is here kind of as comedic relief. When Harry first admits that Cho was crying, Ron says, “Were you that bad of a kisser?” That’s kind of funny.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I was also impressed by how quickly Ron and Hermione know that something is up with Harry. They can see there’s something different with him going on, and Harry internally, he’s kind of freaking out himself, so it’s probably coming across in his body language. But I think it speaks to the deep friendship at this stage of the series that Ron and Hermione can quickly pick up that something is off with him.
Micah: I agree.
Eric: Also, they fear the worst. They think maybe Umbridge said something, or something…
Andrew: Yeah, I think they probably are always on their guard when it comes to Harry, given his dreams and all that, so… comes with being a friend of Harry, to keep a close eye on him.
Micah: The one thing I’ll say, though, is I do think it’s somewhat unique that Harry is able to get these two differing perspectives, because – and maybe this is just my own experience – but being 15 years old and having a good close friend that is of the opposite sex, and is giving you this level of detail and this level of analysis about what’s going on, just doesn’t seem all that common. It would seem much more almost normal to me to get the response that Ron gives in this situation, and that’s the kind of feedback that you’d probably get over the course of the next couple of days as you were talking about your experience. So I don’t know if anybody feels similarly, but I do think it’s interesting that Harry gets, really, this kind of full range of feedback from two very different individuals.
Eric: It’s the keys to the kingdom. I think you’re right, it’s rare, but that shows what a rare friend Hermione is.
Laura: Definitely.
Micah: I’m not saying it’s bad; I’m just saying it’s different.
Eric: Yeah, that’s an interesting point. Well, I wonder if the impetus in writing this really was to have, ultimately, Hermione weigh in on it. That was the idea, that in order to tell the story of what’s really going on with Harry and Cho, you need Hermione to kind of deliver that, because Cho is not going to be – or Harry is not going to be – emotionally mature enough to explain it. They need a third party in Hermione, who’s interested to explain what’s going on and what the circumstances are surrounding all of these characters’ emotional state currently.
Micah: And for Cho, she really needs to have somebody supporting her that’s an adult here, and that’s just not the case. It’s clear that she’s still very much dealing with the trauma of what happened at the end of the fourth year, and she’s not getting the support that she needs.
Eric: No shade to her Head of House, but Flitwick might have taken her aside at the beginning of the year and said, like, “Let’s practice Cheering Charms after hours,” the kind of special lessons that would ultimately improve Cho’s specifically mental state, because this thing that happened to Cedric affected her the most. Teachers should be taking these students aside and making sure that they’re all right in ways that their own peers couldn’t.
Andrew: In fairness to the faculty at Hogwarts, I’ll also add where are Cho’s parents? What are they doing about this?
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: I was just wondering what was her summer like? Because just like everyone else, she had to go home after that whole ordeal, knowing very little about what happened and only having heard Dumbledore’s take before she got spoon fed lies from the Ministry all summer just like everyone else.
Eric: Really the only other thing of note here is that Ron… unfortunately, things turn sour between Ron and Hermione. Specifically, he finds out that she, this whole time, has been writing a letter to Viktor, and he’s like, “You’re writing to Viktor? Which Viktor?” And she’s like, “How many Viktors do we know? Viktor Krum.”
Andrew: [laughs] “The hot one? The one I have a crush on? You jealous?”
Eric: Yeah, is this…? So Ron takes it awfully. And I think he’s had a year now, almost a year exactly, to cool off from the whole Yule Ball thing. But ultimately, he’s still threatened by Hermione writing to Viktor, and it’s not a good look on him. You hate to read it.
Andrew: You hate to read it.
Laura: He’s jealous, and he’s also clearly surprised that she’s still in touch with him. I think learning that she’s still in touch with him, the fact that she’s only half-engaged in their conversation because she’s writing this very lengthy letter to him right in front of Ron, who very clearly would love to get that kind of attention from Hermione… he’s just jealous.
Micah: And it’s happening within the context of the conversation about Harry and Cho.
Laura: Yeah, and Hermione is aggravated because within the context of this romantic conversation, Ron is putting on full display a complete lack of empathy and emotional maturity that you would want to see in someone who you fancy.
Eric: Oh yeah, he’s making it worse for his own prospects here by not… but yeah.
Micah: Part of me still thinks that he doesn’t like her from the year prior. Maybe it’s just me, but I just don’t think… Ron looks back to how Harry was treated by her in year four, and I think that that’s still part of all of this, as Harry’s best friend.
Eric: Hermione treats Harry poorly in year four?
Laura: Oh, you mean Cho?
Micah: Cho.
Eric: Oh, Cho.
Andrew: Ohhh.
Eric: Yeah, possibly. Although that’s not really anybody’s fault either, because – and this may be a movie-ism – but when Harry asks Cho, she’s apologetic about the whole thing. Cedric asked her first.
Laura: Yeah, that’s in the book too.
Micah: But Ron probably doesn’t see it that way.
Eric: Yeah, well, Ron knows what Quidditch team Cho prefers.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: It’s just a whole thing.
Micah: They got beef.
Eric: I will say, it’s funny to see reality distorted a little bit in dreams. I think that this is… because we have that huge gap when the kiss actually happens, and my gosh, Rowling does this with Harry and Ginny right after they kiss; there’s a huge gap, and you don’t see what’s going on. But the insight into Harry’s mind might be most clear through his dream. In the dream that Harry has tonight in Gryffindor dormitory, Cho says Harry promised to give her 150 Chocolate Frog Cards for her showing up there, and Harry is freaking out because it’s more than he can give. It’s more than he has. I’m thinking that Harry is starting to think that this is more transactional in nature, that he owes Chose something that is… the “too much Chocolate Frog Cards that I can’t afford to give you” are things that he doesn’t have enough of, whether it’s romance or… is there something to this? Laura, what do you think?
Laura: Yeah, I mean, at first I was just going to needle you a little bit and be like, “What, Meg doesn’t require that you give her 150 Chocolate Frog Cards?” That just…
[Eric laughs]
Micah: 250.
Eric: Actually, she requires 150 nature memes every time I kiss her.
Laura: Aww.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. It’s really rough. I’m subscribed to all the groups, like Zoological Memes for Ecological Fiends… I’m in all the Facebook groups.
Laura: [laughs] That’s really cute.
Andrew: I do think maybe after this first kiss, Harry might be second doubting, second thinking this potential relationship or the kiss. Like, “Is this too good to be true? I can’t believe this is happening to me,” and maybe that’s why he’s having these transactional type of dreams. Like, “What more can I do for Cho? What do I owe her?” That type of thing.
Laura: He’s building it up way too much. Hermione literally just suggested to him, “Hey, when are you going to ask to take her out on a date?” Right? That’s the obvious next step if they want to continue seeing each other in this way. But it’s very clear – much like Hagrid, actually – he has not really thought ahead about what he would do if Cho were to reciprocate his feelings. So now he’s kind of like, “Uh, what do I do?” And this is manifesting in his dream through these really outlandish representations of Cho demanding things from him.
Eric: I like that a lot. That’s really… and in that way, Harry underprepared.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, he’s 15. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, but if you fantasize about something, you would think you’d prepare a little bit better for it, right?
Laura: I mean, I don’t know. I just think back to being… I think back to having my first kiss and what that experience was like, and there’s really no preparing for it, not really.
Eric: Fair enough. We’re going to… I can’t wait to ask you guys what your first kiss was about, which is coming.
Laura: [laughs] Oh, okay.
Eric: But then there’s one other dream Harry has – I debated whether we should cover it on this chapter discussion – something about a snake and some man. He’s a little tired.
Andrew: [laughs] Some man.
Eric: Some man. Just some guy. Ron’s dad, I guess. Yeah, apparently Harry bites Ron’s dad or something.
Laura: The way that Harry presents the happenings of the dream, you can tell he’s, in real time, trying to get grips on the fact that he was the snake in the dream.
Eric: Yep.
Laura: He’s trying to be truthful, but at the same time, Dean and Seamus are standing right there, and they already kind of think he’s crazy, so he’s like, “I bit… no, uh, the snake bit him.”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Yeah, but the more he does that, the less realistic it sounds like it really happened.
Laura: Right.
Eric: It’s a perfect catch-22.
Andrew: What really struck me about the end of the chapter, though, in this scene is that McGonagall does come in and immediately believes what Harry is saying, and that is so refreshing. After Harry has been ignored by Dumbledore, after students at Hogwarts aren’t too sure of Harry’s story, here is somebody who immediately believes him and is going to take action on this information.
Eric: McGonagall has seen some crazy shh in her time, and this sounds like that brand of crazy.
Andrew: I loved that self-censor I think I just heard.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: Oh, yes, you did. It was a self-censor.
Micah: And we would believe, though, that she would know who is on guard duty.
Eric: That’s the other element.
Micah: And this is also another Horcrux connection that we’re privy to in Order of the Phoenix. Obviously, we don’t find out about Horcruxes until the next book, but the whole idea that Harry could literally be inside of Nagini as she’s attacking Arthur… man, I mean, talk about going from one crazy dream to the next. I mean, you were just having to give away 150 Chocolate Frog Cards…
Eric: It’s a lot.
Micah: … now you’re inside of the head of a venomous snake attacking your best friend’s dad. What kind of lipstick did Cho have on?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yeah, or what did you eat at dinner that made you…? Well, there’s this psychic transference, too, because Harry is retching this whole time too. So Nagini had a feast and Harry is throwing up. That’s crazy. That’s a really crazy, scary, awful – but kind of cool, from a connection standpoint – physiological effect of the Horcrux connection.
Micah: McGonagall… it’s just about time that somebody went to an authority figure for Harry. It’s Neville, right? Neville is the one who goes to get McGonagall.
Eric: Yeah, Neville gets McGonagall.
Micah: But we’ve been talking about needing to go to Dumbledore, needing to go to McGonagall, at multiple junctures of this book so far, and Harry just consistently refuses, refuses, refuses. And now finally, he’s going to come face to face with Dumbledore for the first time since the summer.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Ooh, what’s up? Long time, no see, my guy.”
[Micah laughs]
Eric: Is this going to be a huge confrontation? “In the left corner…” I can’t wait for this next chapter, but we’re not going to be getting to it next week. We have other things coming our way.
Andrew: Next week is our 700th episode, so it’ll be a Muggle Mail episode, and we might have a guest on.
Eric: A particular email just came into our inbox moments ago.
Andrew: Right. Oh, were you all CC’ed on that? Good, so I don’t have to… I forgot. [laughs]
Eric: So anyway… inside baseball.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: It’s baseball season, as you can see.
Eric: Yay. Opening day for the Sox, I think, was today.
Micah: And the Mets.
Eric: Oh, that’s why you’re wearing the pinstripes.
Micah: Yeah, it’s a Mets jersey, not a Yankees jersey. You don’t get to see but the top.
Eric: Oh, okay.
Superlative of the Week
Eric: So wrapping up the chapter discussion, what is, guys, the best jab between Ron and Hermione in this chapter? They kind of go at it.
Andrew: When Hermione says to Ron, “You are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.” [laughs]
Micah: That’s rough.
Eric: That’s pretty brutal, but not untrue. When she sasses Ron, “How many other Viktors do we know?” I really like that.
Micah: Had to stick up for my guy Ron, when he says, “You’d think a bit of kissing would cheer her up.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: And I had to give it to Hermione, not for a statement – y’all actually got all the best jabs, I think – but really for Hermione’s open disdain and disgust for Ron throughout this conversation. It’s so… that energy is palpable in the way this is written, and I remember… every time I read this, I so resonate with her, because I’m like, “Girl, I’ve been there,” where I’m having a conversation with one or more people who are maybe a little bit emotionally obtuse, and I’m just trying to lead the horse to water, and it can be very frustrating. So yeah, Hermione, I feel you.
Eric: Yeah, anyone who’s ever had to do emotional labor because of some dumb boy, thank you for your service.
Laura: [laughs] Not all heroes were capes.
Eric: Yeah, exactly.
Lynx Line
Eric: So we asked… and I think that we’re going to be getting to whoever’s willing can tell the story of their first kiss. But first, let’s hear from our Lynx Line members, people who are on our Patreon and were asked this question: This chapter, Harry has his first kiss. Does not exactly go as he planned. Do you have a particularly awkward or disastrous first kiss story? Or one that, looking back on, you still feel kind of odd about? And here were the answers people gave.
Andrew: Kayla B. said,
“Yes, I will consider it pretty bad. My first kiss was with a guy I regret dating at the time, but I was a young teenager and didn’t know much about dating. Our first kiss was a French kiss, and it grosses me out to this day.”
Laura: Ooh, yeah, that’s not good if you don’t know what you’re doing.
Andrew: That would be with tongue, I guess? Is that a French kiss?
Laura: Yep.
Eric: We heard from Shannon, who was very brief in her reply: “Middle school. We both had braces. Enough said.”
Micah: Oh no.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I’m just picturing… guys, I’m picturing the rubber bands from one brace get caught on another…
Andrew: Ew!
Eric: Oh, oh, oh.
Andrew: Stop.
Eric: It’s too devastating to think about for any longer.
Micah: Robert P. says,
“The first time I kissed my now husband, he dropped me off at my house and I planted a very drunk kiss on him. He would later tell me the kiss was ‘so bad he had to ensure that another one happened.'”
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Laura: Aww.
Eric: That’s dedication.
Andrew: Sure. I think it was good; he just wanted more. But that’s a good way to get somebody to kiss you again.
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: “Hey, can we redo that?” That’s what Cho should have said to Harry, or Harry should have said to Cho.
Eric: Aww.
Laura: Oh yeah, like, “Can I get a redo?”
Andrew: “Can I get a redo on the first kiss? No tears? Side of perfume?”
Micah: Tears of joy. Tears of happiness.
Laura: Stephanie says,
“I was working at a country club the summer before college, and met a very hunky Bulgarian who was working there for the summer as well. He kissed me at the end of the summer, it was all tongue, and I freaked out and ran off, and we never talked again.”
Eric: [laughs] I’m only laughing because of the “freaked out and ran off.” I thought Bulgarians only happened in fiction.
Micah: Was his name Viktor?
Andrew: Yeah, what?
Laura: Yeah, I know.
Andrew: That’s too perfect for a Harry Potter podcast.
Eric: Oh, man.
Andrew: Rachel S. said,
“I was on a second date with a guy and he kissed me. I hadn’t been expecting it and wasn’t sure I wanted him kissing me, and sort of just stood there. After he pulled away, he told me I was a great kisser. Sir, I literally did nothing. We didn’t have any more dates.”
Eric: Yeah, kisses when they’re not expected, compliments when they’re not due… these are some of the easy things to get wrong when you’re young. Barry says,
“I had no idea how to make out, but as a kid, I had read in Hulk Hogan’s autobiography…”
Micah: Jesus.
Eric: Where is this going?
” … Hulk Hogan’s autobiography that people were supposed to use tongue.”
With that handlebar mustache? Okay.
“Needless to say, my first kiss was a bit surprised, and said, ‘You use a lot of tongue.’ I then confessed my ignorance and inexperience, and she said the amazing words, ‘That’s okay; I’ll teach you.'”
Andrew and Laura: Aww!
Eric: Talk about a happy development.
[Andrew giggles]
Eric: That’s adorable, Andrew. We need that as a saved, canned sound effect. That’s really cute.
Micah: Stephanie says,
“My first kiss with a guy I dated in high school was awful. He used tongue and was so slobbery. When I mentioned it (in the nicest way I could), he gaslighted me into thinking I was a bad kisser. My subsequent kisses later in life with other men were nothing like that, so clearly, it was on him.”
Eric: That’s empirical evidence for sure. Also, Barry commented on this quote.
Micah: Yeah, Barry chimed in.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Yeah, Barry chimes in and said despite his story, he was not this guy in Stephanie N.’s story, and Stephanie also confirmed that, so glad for that.
Laura: Yeah, thank you for confirming. Charlotte says,
“My first kiss was horrific… I still cringe. It was outside a movie theater. I was anticipating something gentle, but his ‘technique’ was so tongue and slobber centric that I had to wipe my face after.”
Ewww!
“All I remember is tongue. I thought to myself, ‘No WAY that’s what that’s supposed to be like.’ As if that isn’t bad enough, he was wearing full-length working man overalls, even though he is a city boy with a desk job. (No hate to overalls under more appropriate circumstances.)”
Andrew: Maybe he wanted to be comfortable for the movie.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: Finally, Carlee said,
“My husband and I were hiking the Appalachian Trail with a group from the camp where we worked. We were snuggled up for warmth in a trail shelter overnight, and we ended up kissing for the first time. I got freaked out by the feelings, so the next day I said something like, ‘Okay, first of all: Don’t touch me.’ Needless to say, he was startled and confused, but it all worked out in the end, I just needed time to figure things out. We’ve been married almost as long as MuggleCast has existed: 18 years in September!”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Aww!
Andrew: Happy anniversary, Carlee, coming up.
Eric: Yeah, congratulations.
Laura: After all this time.
Micah: Always.
Eric: I think the biggest takeaways here are don’t do too much too soon? Start with a peck, maybe?
Andrew: And a lot less tongue.
Micah: A lot of French kissing. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, a lot of tongue stories.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. So listen, I understand we have a few teenagers who listen to this podcast, we know.
Andrew: [laughs] Oh boy.
Eric: A couple of 12/13-year-olds who might have their first kiss sometime within the next three or four years, and let’s just say take note.
Andrew: In terms of our own stories, Eric, you said I shared on the previous episode, but I guess I will say that was my first guy kiss. My first girl kiss was in middle school with my girlfriend of a week, Kendall. Literally just a week we were boyfriend and girlfriend. I can’t remember the situation, why we got together or broke up…
Micah: It was her fault.
Andrew: But she had braces. I never did; my parents didn’t love me enough to give me braces.
Eric: [laughs] Oh, no.
Andrew: But she had braces. Yeah, it wasn’t a great first kiss, but when are they? There were no tears, though, so at least there was that.
Laura: Got that going.
Eric: Yeah, there were no tears during mine. It was actually pitch black. It was at a girl’s house; I was staying over with her parents. We met through Harry Potter.
[Andrew giggles]
Eric: And it was just late after night. We had already said goodnight, but we came back out to, I guess, say goodnight again, and a kiss happened, and then we kind of just smiled and went back to bed. Now, the only thing that was awkward about this is we never had a conversation afterwards about what that kiss meant.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: Oh no!
Eric: So it was nice and it was nice in the moment, but we both never followed up on it, so I don’t know. That’s the weird part. It’s childhood, and… I don’t know. These things happen.
Laura: Yeah. Well, and after a certain amount of time passes, too, you’re like, “I don’t even remember anyway,” kind of like what Andrew was talking about. Mine was with my middle school boyfriend. I was 13, and we were preparing for an end of the school year party at my parents’ house, and it just kind of happened while we were preparing the basement for all of our friends to come over for the party. And I mean, I don’t really remember whether it was… I don’t have strong impressions of it. I didn’t walk away from it being like, “Oh, that was amazing,” or, “Oh, that was weird.” It just was a first kiss.
Eric: You’re one of the lucky ones, Laura.
Laura: Yeah, from hearing all these stories today, I agree.
Eric: And Micah, maybe it’ll happen someday for you.
Micah: Well, it did in a parking garage, right, Andrew?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Oh, oh, I see.
Andrew: Yeah, and that was Micah giggling earlier, by the way. He was thinking about our first… no, Micah, we’re not letting you off the hook. First kiss, go.
Micah: So it was definitely in high school. One of my friends was driving myself and this girl, Crystal, back to her house; she didn’t live in our town here on Long Island. And yeah, it just kind of happened. Basically made out in the backseat of his car as he was chauffeuring her back home. [laughs]
Eric: That’s cool.
Andrew: Do you remember the song that was playing?
Micah: I don’t.
Andrew: [singing] “I believe in the thing called love…”
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: It was some ’90s…
Andrew: [singing] “I would do anything for love…”
Micah: By Meatloaf?
Laura: Being a teenager is so awkward, y’all.
Eric: It really is.
Laura: It really, really is.
Eric: There’s a few moments on this show – this chapter being one of them – in which we can appreciate just how awkward and weird it can get. Anyway, don’t forget that you, too, listener, can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And if you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded to your phone or on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Our next Muggle Mail episode is upon us! It’s going to be next week, Episode 700, the mailbag spectacular and celebrating 20 years and 700 episodes of Harry Potter podcasting.
Andrew: Oh, yeah. Before we get to Quizzitch, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us, plus Pam. In our latest episode of What the Hype?!, Pam, Eric, and I are reviewing Sunrise on the Reaping, the new Hunger Games spinoff book. It was really good.
Eric: Awesome.
Andrew: We analyzed and covered the entire book in an hour. It was a fast-paced, excellent conversation. So don’t miss that after you read Sunrise on the Reaping yourself.
Micah: And Andrew, can I add one thing too? Laura and I have been doing reaction videos over on the What the Hype?! YouTube channel and Twitch for the latest episodes of The White Lotus, so as soon as those episodes are over, Laura and I are sitting down and reacting, and it’s been a lot of fun.
Laura: It really has.
Andrew: Speaking of kissing…
Eric: I’m trying to catch up, guys. I just finished Season 2 finale. Season 2 finale was a doozy, so I’m getting on Season 3 ASAP.
Laura: Perfect.
Andrew: And over on Millennial, we are sharing how everyday Muggles are using ChatGBT and other fascinating AI tools to improve their lives. Wanted to hear how our listeners are using these tools.
Quizzitch
Andrew: Now it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s Quizzitch question: In the English fairytale Jack and the Beanstalk, Jack, who later meets a husband and wife that are giants, trades what to obtain a handful of magic beans? The correct answer that we were looking for was the family cow. And it turns out we were not looking for the answer “a friggin’ cow,” which somebody suggested, but I counted it because that’s kind of funny.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: 86% of people who answered correctly said they didn’t look it up, and this week’s winners are as follows: A Healthy Breeze; Buff Daddy; Collides Nomen; Carlee; DFTBA; Granger? I hardly know her!; Hagrid’s dragon steak dinner; Hermione’s bushy, bushy hair; “I’m counting down the days to the end of Lent, when I can listen again and find out if you read my name” – again, put your name – Kennah Dawn; Lestranger Things; Levioooooooosa; Low-key just did a play about this; LydiaLovesMC; MilyWhite; Moo cow, don’t bother me; Patronus Seeker; Portkey Me to Carmel by the Sea; Ravenpuff from Sweden; SuperRavenclaw; The bagpipes that play at the Quidditch World Cup; There are giants in the sky; Tofu Tom; and Umbridge’s Minus Aura. Wow, lot of entries. Here is next week’s Quizzitch question: Capable of reaching a length of roughly 19 feet and weighing around 28 pounds, what is the largest known venomous snake species in the world?
Micah: Oooh. There might’ve been a movie about it, right?
Eric: Maybe.
Micah: With an actor who was in Fantastic Beasts.
Eric: “Venomous” is the key to that correct answer, by the way.
Micah: Oh, okay.
Laura: Ah, all right.
Eric: Venomous. Largest venomous snake species. So submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or if you’re on the website checking out transcripts or must listens page or something else over there, click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.
Andrew: Don’t forget to visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to support us. Also, please leave us a review in your favorite podcast app and owl a friend about the show if you think your Harry Potter friends could use some more Harry Potter friends in their lives. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.
Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.
It may also be the right time to look into the sherry shortages that have mystified the house-elves of late.”