Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #710, Forbidden Forest Free For All (OOTP Chapter 30, ‘Grawp’)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Micah Tannenbaum: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Micah.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Micah: We’re your Harry Potter friends, talking about the books, movies, and upcoming TV show. Make sure you follow us in your favorite podcast app; that way you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, grab your crossbow and be ready to be irresponsibly brought into the Forbidden Forest to risk death. We’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Grawp.”
Eric: Micah, I see in the show planning doc this image that I forgot, and I’m so grateful that it exists, but it seems like you’ve actually met Grawp before.
Micah: You know, I did. I had the opportunity to meet Grawp a couple years ago. He was in Westchester, New York when I went to the Harry Potter: A Forbidden Forest Experience, and it was just so nice to bump into him. He had horrible breath, by the way.
Eric: [laughs] What’s terrifying about this photo… and you look very cute in your earmuffs, because I assume this was the outdoor event, the partially…
Micah: It’s outdoors, yes. It was a little chilly when I went.
Eric: But Grawp, who’s behind you and just absolutely towering behind you, has very large ears and no earmuffs, and it makes me a little concerned that Grawp’s ears need protection too.
Micah: They’re giant ears, though, so perhaps they’re self-warming.
Eric: Yeah, I think so.
Laura: Perhaps.
Eric: But yeah, what a lovely, terrifying photo to see at the top of the document.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: And I shared it in our Discord as well. And I would say that if folks haven’t had the opportunity, and this is something that’s showing up in their neck of the woods – there’s a dad joke for you – definitely go and check it out.
Eric: Which part, neck?
Micah: The woods. Neck of the woods. Get it?
Eric: Neck of the woods? No, I don’t.
Micah: Forbidden Forest? Woods? Honestly, though, I did mention his breath. So it’s animatronic, and as you walk by, there’s this nasty mist that comes out of Grawp’s mouth. I’m not sure why they decided to do that, but this was in between breath mints for Grawp.
Eric: Oh, I’m sorry you had to…
Laura: He hasn’t met that special someone yet, so he hasn’t discovered the importance of hygiene.
Eric: [laughs] You guys, I wonder how many proposals take place in front of Grawp.
Laura: [laughs] In front of Grawp! “Will you marry -?” and then Grawp is like, [exhales].
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Oh, we’re feeling loopy tonight, everybody.
Micah: We are. It’s because we’re without our fearless leader, who has been attacked by the Interwebs, unfortunately. He will be back next week.
Laura: Yeah, the Internet gods decided that Andrew would not be able to join us for today’s show, so buckle up, everyone.
Eric: We’re rudderless.
Laura: You just get us. [laughs]
Micah: So before we get to Chapter by Chapter, just a couple of important reminders. If you love MuggleCast and want to help us keep this show running smoothly so we don’t have to do smuggle contraband into the Forbidden Forest to get by, we invite you to become a member of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By supporting us there, you’ll get instant access to two bonus MuggleCast episodes every month, ad-free episodes, access to our recording studio by way of livestreams, a personal “Thank you” message from one of the four of us, and so much more. If you’re looking for other ways to support us, visit MuggleCastMerch.com to buy official gear, leave us a review in your favorite podcast app, and tell a friend about the show. Speaking of show gear, this is our 19th anniversary of podcasting, and in our overstock store, we also have MuggleCast’s “19 Years Later” T-shirts available for purchase. These are only available while supplies last, so visit MuggleMillennial.etsy.com to grab yours, and of course, visit MuggleCast.com for quick access to all of this information and lots more, like our contact form.
Chapter by Chapter: Time-Turner
Micah: But now it is time for Chapter by Chapter of Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Grawp.”
Eric: Which we last discussed on Episode 467 of MuggleCast. The title of that episode was “Stranger Danger,” based on a Rename the Chapter segment from Andrew, and it aired on June 2, 2020. Here’s a clip from that episode.
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Three turns should do it, I think. Good luck.
Ron: What the…?
[Bell dings]
[Whooshing sound]
Robotic voice: Episode 467.
Andrew: It’s also worth asking, how does introducing this giant upset the ecosystem in the forest?
Laura: And it does.
Eric: Oh, horribly, horribly. It only takes Grawp a couple of seconds to rip up entire trees that have been growing there for 40 or 50 years, or 150 years.
Andrew: Probably longer, yeah.
Eric: So it’s absolutely just the most… extremely disruptive.
Laura: Harry even notes it. When they’re walking into the forest, he notes the distinct lack of creatures. He’s like, “Usually we would have seen something by now, but there’s nothing.”
Micah: Right.
Andrew: Well, they were all the Quidditch match. That was why.
Eric: Sports!
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Micah: They were watching…
Laura: All the creatures went to the Quidditch match. [laughs]
[Ticking sound]
Dumbledore: Mysterious thing, time.
[Bell dings]
Laura: I love that theory about all the creatures in the forest going to the Quidditch match. It’s very chaotic. And while I don’t think that’s actually what happened, I think…
Eric: Oh, what? Are you kidding me?
[Laura laughs]
Eric: They heard that Ron was having some bad luck, and so they all decided they’re going to band together, and that’s what encouraged Ron…
Laura: And go support him. Oh, man.
Eric: Yeah, in solidarity.
Laura: They changed the lyrics to “Weasley Is Our King.” I get it now.
[Eric laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Laura: But I was going to say it kind of matches the chaotic energy that we see at the beginning of this chapter.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Laura: We spoke last week about how the school was starting to try and gum up the works for Umbridge and not make her new job as headmistress very pleasant, and it seems like in the wake of Fred and George’s monumental departure from Hogwarts last chapter, the students, the professors, Peeves, pretty much anyone who can do something to keep the resistance alive is doing something to keep the resistance alive. It really feels like Fred and George gave everyone the motivation to be able to do that. It’s like them departing Hogwarts did something to the student body.
Eric: Yeah, they led by example in just the coolest way. They made this swamp that’s so extra, and they were cheeky. They did all these things. It’s the stuff of Hogwarts legend, it’s said in this chapter, or soon to be. And I think sometimes it does just take a leader to show you… yeah, all the students could always have been doing something like this, but it’s almost that permission, or “Oh yeah, we do have it within our power to act out. We may not be able to make a cool swamp like this, but we have the ability and can get creative with it,” which is what we see the rest of the student body pretty much doing.
Micah: It’s also a bit of “You reap what you sow” for Umbridge. She’s been putting out all of these Educational Decrees throughout the course of the school year, and she’s finally gotten to a place where she has gotten what she wanted. She’s assumed full control over the school, but she really has absolutely no idea about how to control the students, or how to rule the school. She wants the position so badly, but now that she’s actually in it, she has no clue about how to run Hogwarts. And this is a natural reaction by not just the student body, but some of the professors as well, who have been under her control now. And as you said, Fred and George really have given the rest of the student body, the faculty, and even some of the ghosts and the poltergeist to have free reign, giving them permission, almost, to revolt.
Laura: Totally. And I think what’s really interesting is looking at Peeves’s behavior in this chapter, because Peeves seems like he’s really been let off his leash, and I think that’s a consequence of obviously the directive Fred and George gave him last chapter, but I think it’s also the lack of Dumbledore at the helm of Hogwarts. I think now that Peeves knows there’s no one there to actually keep him in line, he’s completely acting out, and also showing that Filch was never the person who would have been able to keep Peeves in line, no matter what. It was really Dumbledore.
Eric: Yeah, and speaking of Filch, too, we see him having to ferry students across the little moat of Fred and George’s, which is just so time-consuming, and he can’t get to all those other tasks. I wanted to ask the question: Do we think Filch is starting to maybe have some buyer’s remorse about Umbridge? He’s been so gung ho because she made him these promises we talked about an episode or two ago, like whipping, the capital punishments coming back. We don’t really see that employed in this chapter, either. And there’s four successive classes of detention; we don’t hear about them all getting whipped, so she hasn’t done that. She hasn’t expelled Peeves. She was going to write to the Minister and have that be all settled; Filch was looking really forward to it. The fact that she didn’t even do any of her day one promises… do we think that Filch is now like, “I wish I had Dumbledore back”?
Laura: Man, interesting. I don’t know if he would admit that to himself or to anyone else, but I mean, at the very least, right now Filch should be going, “Hey, wait a second. Whose side are you on?”
Eric: [laughs] Yeah, his day to day is objectively worse than it was when Dumbledore was in charge.
Laura: Yeah. And the other thing is, too, Filch… I don’t know that he will have realized this at this point, but Umbridge considers him an ally for now, while he’s convenient, but he’s a Squib, and we know how Umbridge feels about blood status, so I think we can presume that had Umbridge been allowed to continue her authoritarian reign at Hogwarts for years and years, Filch probably wouldn’t get to hold on to his position.
Micah: No.
Laura: We just don’t get to see that happen.
Eric: Right, she would have let him go. She would have said, “You’re no longer useful,” whatever, and then gotten somebody who had magic, like the Carrows, and gotten them to do the job.
Micah: Well, she needs as many allies as she can get at this point, because it’s really down to Filch and the Inquisitorial Squad. But I do really like what you said, Laura, because it made me think about how Umbridge, her backstory, she had a Squib for a brother, and how that impacted her family dynamics and her decision to really separate with her father initially; her brother went off with her mother. And then she eventually was able to rise through the ranks in the Ministry, but only at the expense of her father, who was in a position at the Ministry… I think he was what would be considered a janitor there, so she didn’t look very favorably upon him, and she wanted to get him out of the way as quickly as possible so that her name wasn’t mud as she was rising in the ranks there. But I totally agree; if she were to find out about Filch… we don’t know that she knows that Filch is a Squib. If she did, the likelihood of her relying upon him would probably not be as great as it is in this book.
Laura: Oooh, that’s a good point, because she does tell him last chapter not to Stun the fireworks.
Eric: Right, he gets close, and he’s like, “Okay.” [laughs]
Laura: Yeah, yeah. And Harry is like, “Does she not know?” So yeah, it is a good point. She might be making the assumption that Hogwarts would never hire somebody who didn’t at least have some amount of magical blood, as Umbridge would see it.
Eric: Because she wouldn’t ever hire anybody who… yeah, yeah.
Laura: Right, totally.
Eric: Yep. Filch was a diversity hire.
[Laura laughs]
Micah: I’m surprised we didn’t talk about… the clip that you chose, Eric, was not the punting clip from the last time we did this, because we had no idea what punting is.
Eric: Honestly, Micah, I’m sick to death of us pointing that out. [laughs] It’s like… Andrew is here!
Laura: [gasps] Oh my God, has a wild Andrew appeared?
Micah: Oh, wow.
Eric: Wait a minute!
Laura: Oh my God, Andrew Sims has joined the studio.
Eric: Did the state of Nevada suddenly fix their Internet?
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Thanks to Reddit, I figured out how to get around it. Apparently Quantum Fiber’s DNS is down, so if you switch to Google’s DNS through your router, it gets working again.
Laura: Ahh, man.
Eric: I knew some of those words!
Andrew: I’m running through Google tubes right now, as opposed to CenturyLink’s tubes. So yes, hello.
Laura: We were talking about Filch feeling some buyer’s remorse, because we’re already seeing pretty early on that he’s not getting any of what Umbridge has promised him, and that, I think, dovetails really nicely into the punting conversation. Of course, five years ago, we were all laughing because – stupid Americans – we were like, “Is Filch drop-kicking the students across this moat?”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: And our UK listeners were like, “No, no, he’s boating them across. He’s got a little boat. He’s sailing them across the moat.” Makes way more sense.
Micah: Captain Filch.
Laura: Oh, yeah! He has another…
Eric: Is that like Captain Toad in the Mario games?
Laura: Could be.
Andrew: Captain Filch would totally be a pirate. That reminds me of a pirate.
Laura: Well, speaking of the chaos reigning at Hogwarts – because it’s not just Peeves driving it – someone put a Niffler in Umbridge’s office, and it completely destroys her office, upends it looking for shinies and jewels and all the things that we know that Nifflers want to find. But I will admit that when I was reading this chapter, I wondered to myself, “Which character was it that put the Niffler in Umbridge’s office?” We know that she automatically jumps to the assumption that it must be Hagrid because it’s a creature, but we know it’s probably not Hagrid. But as I was reading, I was like, “I really can’t remember who it was,” so I thought it would be fun for us to talk about if we don’t know who it is as readers, who at this point in the story do we think is most likely? And then at the end we can reveal who the actual perpetrator was and see if we think our guesses would have been better.
Andrew: I can’t wait to find that out, because a couple of us didn’t know, which is why this is in here to begin with.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: I won’t name who. [in a low voice] I’m one of the people.
Laura: Hey, I didn’t know. I’m the one who asked the question. [laughs]
Andrew: I’m admitting too, yeah. I wouldn’t put it past Umbridge to frame Hagrid.
Eric: So she set the Niffler in her own office, which… okay.
Andrew: Yeah, and maybe she secretly likes Nifflers.
Eric: Aww.
Laura: Yeah, I could totally see it being a false flag type thing.
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, look at her love for cats. I could see her loving other cute little animals as well.
Eric: Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that a lot.
Andrew: And she could set them up to steal gold for her, which also I would not put past her.
Eric: Oh, yeah. She needs more rings for her fingers. I decided to guess that the culprit was none other than the wife of the grandson of Newt Scamander himself, future wife. So maybe Luna and Rolf Scamander are writing letters or something; they’re sweet on one another, and they get to talking, “How can we disrupt Umbridge?” And it’s in fact with a Niffler, of course, which is Rolf’s idea, because his grandfather was always fond of them.
Micah: Yeah, I like that a lot, actually, and it would be a Ravenclaw getting up to no good. But I’m just thinking back to the prior chapter, “Career Advice”: McGonagall. She is just not happy with Umbridge; she hasn’t been this entire year, and I wouldn’t put it past her to slip a Niffler into Umbridge’s office.
Laura: Yeah, and I actually agreed with Eric; I also thought Luna. I could see Luna thinking this was such a harmless way to create chaos, because it’s a cute, snuggly little Niffler. What’s the worst it’s going to do? It’s going to mess up her office. Oh, well. I could see Luna doing that. But Micah, do you want to reveal who the perpetrator actually was for those of us who forgot?
Micah: Yeah, we learn a little bit later on – and it’s actually not a surprise, because it is a dear friend of Fred and George – Lee Jordan is the one responsible for the Nifflers, and he comes clean. But I like some of these theories we had here. It would have been nice to see maybe Luna or McGonagall, or somebody else besides the…
Andrew: McGonagall would have been great. Another adult doing that? That would have been amazing.
Eric: Yeah, I think McGonagall would be worried, though, that it would get tracked to Hagrid. She wouldn’t want to get one of her fellow colleagues in trouble, which is what ends up happening anyway. But I like the idea that we don’t know who, or it generally could be anybody, because that shows how much of an uproar the whole student body is in, and how inspired they were by Fred and George. So the legacy is very impressive.
Laura: Yeah. Well, the tricks don’t stop here, because students are having to use Bubble-Head Charms as they navigate the corridors between classes, because Dungbombs are being dropped with such regularity that students want to make sure they have a clean supply of breathing air so that they can move undeterred between their classes, which is funny. And Eric, I think you had a question here about comparisons to another one of the many historical events that we’ve all lived through in the last decade. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, we know that we last talked about this when COVID was first happening, and I’m surprised, because looking through the transcript, I can’t seem to find whether we mentioned that Bubble-Head Charm. What a creative way to make sure you have a supply of fresh air. Could also be used instead of masking to make sure that you just have a clean supply of air and that there isn’t any COVID in your air. Would kind of be a cool, safe way. You could attend concerts. I could attend the Pride parades that I’m always afraid of being a super spreader event, just with a Bubble-Head Charm. So that was fun.
Laura: Yeah, but I mean, that… anyway. I was going to say something else, but I’ll keep going. [laughs] Students are also using Skiving Snackboxes to tank Umbridge’s lessons, and despite her attempts to dole out blanket detentions to entire classes, she is ultimately unable to find the course of the Snackboxes, meaning that she has to tolerate students pretty regularly leaving her class, because they come in and they take them and they’ll immediately erupt in bloody noses or have their ears steaming, or they’ll have fainting fits. So at this point, I think we can presume nobody is really going to Defense Against the Dark Arts anymore.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: Seems like they’re coming in and passing out in the first five minutes of class, and there’s nothing she can do about it. She has to let them leave.
Eric: Oh, man.
Micah: Totally. And Laura, you noted here, “This is how we do it,” and this is how we do it. And the entire school is unified, minus Slytherin, as far as we know. There might be a few outliers in Slytherin who are supporting the larger group here. But all they needed was a moment; they needed an event to tip things off. And we see this happen a lot in the real world, but once it’s taken place, now they feel free to act the way that they’re acting. They saw what Fred and George did, and it’s almost like they were given permission to misbehave.
Andrew: Yeah, the dam has been broken, the first domino has fallen, and now everybody’s inspired and taking the lead. I think it does have to be called out just how critical Fred and George’s moment last chapter was to really get things moving in the castle.
Laura: Yeah. And I mean, so much of what the students are doing… I mean, a lot of things they’re doing, like dropping Dungbombs in the hallway between classes, those things are very disruptive, but a lot of students, especially the ones that are just taking their Puking Pastilles to get out of Defense Against the Dark Arts, it’s kind of a form of passive resistance, or you could call it malicious compliance, if you wanted to. And I wanted to ask if anyone here has ever done something similar in real life. Doesn’t have to be anything big and bombastic. The example that I draw from is actually one where my HOA frequently comes up with very stupid rules for things, and they threaten to enforce them through fining people. And so one such thing not long ago was the dumpster for our building – and it’s actually the dumpster that’s meant to serve three buildings – is far too small for the amount of people it is intended to serve. And a year and a half ago, our HOA sent out an email to everyone being like, “Stop putting bulky items in the dumpster. If people keep putting bulky items in the dumpster, we’re going to fine you.” So I was like, “Okay.” My response to that was to say, “I won’t put bulky items in the dumpster; I’ll just put them beside the dumpster.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: And that’s what I started doing; that’s what some of my neighbors started doing. And I don’t know what changed; all I know is we don’t have a new dumpster, but our dumpster does get picked up more frequently now, it seems like. So I don’t know for a fact that our little act of resistance drove that, but it might have. And at the very least, I’m not…
Andrew: Also, it’s a dumpster. That’s its role, to take in bulky items.
Laura: Yeah! Right.
Eric: A communal… yeah, what are people going to do with their garbage?
Laura: Right.
Andrew: For me, so I couldn’t recall a time where I have participated in this sort of malicious compliance, but the one that you hear about from time to time is somebody charges you a bill that maybe you don’t think you have to pay, or you’re mad at the service that you received, so you decide you’re going to pay it, but you’re going to pay it in coins or pennies so it’s really hard for the bill collector to add up. Instead of just writing them a check, paying with credit card, paying cash, no, you pay in pennies. You give them 5,000 pennies, and to get up to… what is that, $50? $500? And that’s how you maliciously comply. Because you’re following the rules, you’re complying, but you’re giving them a hard time along the way.
Eric: I love these stories.
Laura: Yeah, it’s just sand in the gears, gum up the works.
Eric: I want to be Laura when I grow up.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: I feel like in the moment, I just pay the bill, and not because I’m happy about it. I’m absolutely not happy about it, but it’s like I can’t think of a great way to maliciously comply. So I look to others. I look to the Fred and Georges of the world to show me how it’s done, and then I’m like, “I will participate in this.” But yeah.
Laura: Ask ChatGPT. ChatGPT, I’m sure, can give you some examples.
Eric: I don’t want to drain a lake while I do it. [laughs] That feels like the opposite of malicious compliance.
Laura: Well, yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. Well, we do need to take a quick break here so we can pay our bills, but then we’ll be right…
Micah: In pennies.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: In pennies, of course. But then we’ll be right back to talk a little bit more about the resistance happening at Hogwarts.
Micah: That’s why your Internet’s not working, Andrew. You paid the damn bill in pennies.
Andrew: That’s it.
Laura: Ohhh.
Eric: They’re like, “We know where he is!”
Andrew: No, it’s a nationwide outage. It’s not just me.
Eric: “We know where he is on Thursdays at 4:30 p.m.!”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Needing the Internet really badly. Good Internet, too.
[Ad break]
Laura: Well, we’re back, and resistance also creates some strange bedfellows, or at the very least gets characters to behave in a way that maybe they wouldn’t traditionally. So McGonagall actually gives Peeves some advice about how to unscrew a chandelier. Harry could have sworn that as he walks by her, watching Peeves unscrew the chandelier, that out of the corner of her mouth, she just says, “It unscrews to the left,” or something like that.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: Which is a very fun moment, because that is the most un-McGonagall thing. But in this moment, she recognizes that there are bigger fish to fry, and she’s honestly probably partnering up with someone who she wouldn’t normally partner up with in order for the greater good of what’s to happen at Hogwarts. And I thought the moment where Hermione asks Harry and Ron if they should come clean about what happened to Montague in the toilet is very funny to me, because Ron is very quick to say, “Pfft, no, he had it coming.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: But also, Hermione doesn’t push back. She kind of lets it go. And I feel like under normal circumstances, the Hermione we know would be like, “No, a person got hurt. It doesn’t matter if we don’t like them; we need to come forward with information that might help him get better.” But she’s not pushing back here.
Andrew: Do you think she’s feeling inspired after Fred and George, just like the rest of the school is? I mean, it’s rubbing off on McGonagall. [laughs]
Laura: I think so, yep.
Eric: It’s fun, breaking all the rules. I think when you just see utter lawlessness, like the Inquisitorial Squad just ruthlessly docking points from everyone… and Dumbledore has been such a constant their whole schooling life; now he’s gone. Umbridge has given 30 new Educational Decrees. What starts to break down is you start to forget why you’re following rules to begin with, because it’s a completely lawless society. It’s like, “Okay.” So I think Hermione, the reason she doesn’t push back harder is because she can see not only that it’s a losing battle – and she has very little time right now because of exams, so she has to pick only the battles that are going to be winning for her – but because everything else is going to hell, and everyone’s in open revolt against Umbridge, she realizes that it’s… she’s less reminded that the right thing to do is the right thing to do, and so she is able to be swayed, I think, a little easier. Does that make sense?
Laura: Yeah, I think so, given the circumstances. I think a lot of people might behave differently depending on how dire they think a situation is. So it’s very clear that everyone sort of on the side of Hogwarts, right? If we’re thinking about this as Hogwarts versus the Ministry, it seems like we’re doing a really good job at Hogwarts at this point of being like, “Maybe we don’t agree on everything, but we do agree on the macro statement that the Ministry should not be interfering at our school.”
Andrew: [laughs] Good business lingo, Laura.
Laura: Oh, well, thank you. That’s the world that I live in 40 hours a week.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Do you want to circle back? Do you want to circle back and talk about macro some more? I’m really interested in that concept.
Laura: No, no. Okay. I hate it.
Andrew: Let’s zoom out and put a pin in this.
Eric: Oh, God.
Laura: Okay, I hate it, I hate it. Anyway. [laughs]
Eric: Okay, well, in our Discord, m. is talking about… so this whole Hermione lawlessness; she said, “I don’t know. Hermione has a dark side. Remember Marietta.”
Micah: And Rita. Don’t forget about Rita.
Andrew: Yes! Yeah!
Eric: [laughs] Rita still harbors…
Andrew: We have been calling this out over the last year from time to time. Hermione does have her moments that surprise us. We’re like, “Wow, she’s more of a baddie than we expected.”
Eric: I think, Andrew, if I’m remembering correctly, five years ago there was this plot thread of how Hermione is a murderer or something. We were joking. I think you were pushing it really hard that she was this evil person because of Marietta the first time.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I vaguely remember this.
Eric: I have to look back. Yeah, there’s something about it. But Hermione is pretty vicious.
Micah: I did want to mention – and I can’t remember if we made this comparison – but Laura, when you’re talking about how resistance creates strange bedfellows, it is… it wouldn’t be reminiscent… I guess you would say Deathly Hallows is reminiscent of this moment in Order of the Phoenix, because you do have pretty much the entire school, with the exception of the Slytherins, who are against Umbridge and the Ministry in this case. And then in Deathly Hallows, you have everybody, with the exception of the Slytherins, who are against Voldemort and the Death Eaters.
Laura: Yeah, I love that connection. It is so true. And ultimately, it’s the result of a society that’s like, “This is our big problem. We all agree this guy, wizard Hitler, is our big problem.” And I think that’s ultimately what allows the Umbridge regime to crumble at Hogwarts, because yeah, if people couldn’t agree on what the issue was, then who knows what the rest of the book series would have looked like?
Micah: And if you want to talk about strange bedfellows, maybe adding in the centaurs and the house-elves who do play a part in the Battle of Hogwarts, which maybe you wouldn’t expect at this point in Order of the Phoenix, especially with what happens a little bit later on in this chapter with the centaurs.
Eric: The question that I have about this chapter… we’ve all been reading through. What is the secret information that they have about Montague that Ron pressures Hermione not to divulge, and Harry agrees? Do the Slytherins not know that he’s been in the Vanishing Cabinet? Because that, I thought, was pretty clear ever since the Weasley twins disappeared him. That’s just a part in a chapter…
Micah: Or is it that the Weasley twins were responsible?
Laura: Maybe it was who was responsible for it.
Eric: Okay. I’m still not clear on how somebody goes from a Vanishing Cabinet – and I understand it transports you in various places – but goes from there, the inside of a cabinet, to a toilet and then gets rescued from the toilet but is still not quite right for some reason. And somehow Harry, Ron, and Hermione have the secret answer that Hermione wants to come clean with, and Harry and Ron are like, “Nah, don’t. He sucks.”
Laura: Well, maybe it’s the Vanishing Cabinet part of the story. Maybe it’s that Fred and George shoved him into the Vanishing Cabinet, and no one knows that part. Maybe they just… because they just know that they found him – whatever it means for them to find him – in the toilet.
Eric: Right.
Laura: They found him there, and perhaps he’s currently unable to communicate what happened to him? I don’t know.
Eric: Yeah. Maybe this will be answered a little later, because we know eventually Draco knows about the cabinet.
Laura: Yes. We also get another revelation at this point in the chapter, which is about where Fred and George got their money to be able to build up their joke shop and to rent their premises. Harry finally has to come clean to Ron and Hermione that he gave Fred and George his Triwizard Tournament winnings, because Ron and Hermione started going down some dark paths of thinking about how Fred and George might have gotten the money, thinking they might have been doing something illegal. And Harry was like, “Okay, that’s a bridge too far. I don’t want them to think that Fred and George are doing anything bad or illegal, or, God forbid, for that to get back to Mrs. Weasley.” So he comes clean, and Ron is delighted by this, because he’s like, “Ha! Great! Now she can’t blame me for this happening.”
Eric: [laughs] You know, Ron’s got a lot of anxieties, and this is just one fewer anxiety that he’s got to worry about. This is great. I feel great for Ron.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Andrew: And I’m glad Harry came clean. It was definitely the right decision. And I like that Hermione was trying to push back, and Harry was like, “No, it’s done. Sorry. There’s nothing I can do about it. Just deal with it.”
[Eric laughs]
Micah: It’s his money, too.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Who is she to try and tell Harry what to do with his money? And there’s nothing wrong with how he gave it, or how the twins spent it.
Eric: No, and we’re seeing that. This is… the Skiving Snackboxes are the means by which so many of the school are able to revolt and cause Umbridge a headache, so it really just paid for itself 1,000 times over, I think.
Laura: Yeah. It is pretty amazing, too, knowing that Umbridge did try to figure out what the source of the Snackboxes were, but she was never going to because the source wasn’t at Hogwarts anymore.
Eric: Well, but she must be able to… this is what tells me she’s not a good educator, teacher. She’s not observant. She would clearly be able to see people popping these toffees into their mouths and things. There’s no real covert way of doing that, that I’m aware of.
Laura: Yeah. Maybe they do it right as they’re entering her classroom.
Andrew: Yeah, or if they’re looking down real quick. If I’m imagining popping a piece of gum into your mouth, that’s kind of easy to…
Eric: Well, because she could have everyone bring no book bags in. It’s not like they need their wands or other stuff. She could have them all hands by their side…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: She could really… I think if she had any intelligence, she could figure this out pretty quickly, but she doesn’t.
Laura: Yeah, it is kind of surprising that she doesn’t, because I feel like it would be very up her alley to treat the students like prisoners, so it is a little bit shocking that it doesn’t go there for her. But unfortunately for Harry, Hermione’s nagging about his Triwizard winnings going to Fred and George doesn’t last as long as he thinks it will, because she starts nagging him about when he is going to resume Occlumency lessons, which is the last thing Harry wants to do at this point. And it’s a little disconcerting, because once again, Harry seems very isolated in everything that he’s seeing in terms of the long hallway leading to that door at the Department of Mysteries. Ron even confirms for Hermione that he hears Harry sleep talking, saying, “Just a bit closer, just a bit further…” Harry is reporting that in his dreams, he’s getting so close to the door, and he’s actively trying to get there, it seems. So I’m wondering if Harry should see this as a warning. I know we’ve talked a lot, and I’ve in particular talked a lot during this book about how Harry is not being given the information that he needs to be able to make good decisions, but it does feel like there’s a point in this dreamscaping that he’s doing where it should raise red flags for him. No?
Eric: Yes, yes. I think part of the reason he wants it so bad is because he’s entering the mind of Voldemort, who wants it so bad, so it’s two people wanting it so bad that keeps Harry pursuing this. But he has a critical lack here of self-reflection, because he just got in huge trouble. The reason he can’t do Occlumency with Snape anymore is because he wanted, more than anything, to see what was in the Pensieve, what Snape’s memories were going to be. Then he had this whole crisis, because what he found out pursuing his dreams was “This is horrible,” and it made him question reality. He should be the very last person right now to be following his own personal wants or desires, because it’s a trap. It’s a trap, Harry. He could have said, “Okay, I should maybe do what other people are telling me to do, because every time I’ve veered off script in this book, or at least the latter half of this book, it’s been a problem for me.”
Laura: Yeah. I did want to ask, too, do we know if at this point Voldemort is aware of their connection? Because we know… I mean, obviously he becomes aware of it ahead of what happens in the Department of Mysteries so that he can plant those false visions. I’m wondering how early Voldemort discovers this, and could he potentially be planting those seeds now?
Eric: I think so. I think it’s when… as soon as Kreacher goes to Bellatrix for the first time, because right around Christmas when the Weasley thing happened, when the Mr. Weasley attack happens, how did that happen? How did they know about it in time to save him? This is all gossip that Kreacher would have known about. So I just assumed the last couple months, it’s been a plan.
Andrew: He’s had some suspicions, but maybe he wasn’t totally confident until the end of this book.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: But the last couple of weeks, he’s gone all the way through into the Hall of Prophecy, too, and I think maybe that didn’t start happening until Voldemort was aware. So Voldemort… he could only get to the door, not even the room with many doors, until Voldemort found out. Then Voldemort is like, “Oh, let me show you what’s on the other side.”
Andrew: [laughs] “Let me get that door for you.”
Eric: And not knowing how exactly he’s going to use it, maybe. But yeah, I think that’s it.
Andrew: But Harry is not going to see this as a warning sign, right? Because he’s so excited to find out what the hell is behind that door, and he wants to get further into the Department of Mysteries. He doesn’t… he’s just blinded from caution.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Why hasn’t anyone checked in with him on this, though? Because I mean, he just got a big lecture from Sirius and Remus about needing to do Occlumency, and no one’s followed up with him or with Snape or with the Order. It’s just weird to me that this is being allowed to stand.
Micah: It’s a great point. And I feel like, though, there’s so much that’s in disarray right now, though to be fair, we don’t know where Dumbledore is or what he’s doing. He could be with the Order for all we know. But I feel like throughout this book, Harry slowly loses people at Hogwarts who could be of help to him. He loses Dumbledore. He loses Snape, whether… we’re going to debate Snape’s being of help or not; he’s still an ally of the Order, as far as we know, and was supposed to be teaching him Occlumency. And then Fred and George, too; they’re close friends of his because of his relationship with Ron. And we see towards the end of this chapter, it seems like Hagrid now is going to be removed from the picture. You’re talking about major pillars of Harry’s Hogwarts life that are being removed, and so with the exception of Ron and Hermione, who is there for him to go to? That’s why I do think it’s important that somebody is checking in on him, somebody’s making sure that these lessons are happening.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, you mentioned Hermione. I mean, Hermione is very concerned, too, that he’s not going to Occlumency lessons, and he just sort of shrugs it off.
Eric: This is priority one for the Order. The Order does not want to happen what happens, and they all have to go and face off against the Death Eaters in a month. Lupin threatened to go up and yell at Snape to get him to teach Harry; that should have happened, and there’s no obvious reason why it doesn’t happen, besides contrivances of the plot. Dumbledore may be away from the school, but somebody needs to be coming here and making sure that Harry is getting this lesson, or taking over the lesson. Honestly, McGonagall… maybe she’s never done Occlumency in her life; she’s a better teacher. She could figure something out and give Harry some lessons. The Order should be circling around Harry, making sure he knows this, because they know that this is going to be exploited.
[Ad break]
Laura: All right, so now we’re going to get into the main event of this chapter, and this is really also the introduction of the chapter’s titular character.
Micah: That’s Eric’s word.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: I like titular. Titular’s good.
Laura: That’s true. Maybe I picked that up from you, because I was writing this out, and I was like, “Huh, that’s funny. This is almost never a word that I use.”
Eric: It’s not ever really…
Laura: And I was like, “Maybe I got it from Eric.”
Eric: That’s so funny. I don’t claim it until now…
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: … but every once in a while you have the opportunity to use titular, and it’s fun.
Laura: Yeah. [laughs]
Eric: Grawp is not deserving of the title of this chapter. [laughs] That’s another question.
Laura: Oh, poor Grawp.
Eric: Yeah, I guess it’s not his fault. It’s literally everyone else’s.
Laura: No, it’s literally Hagrid’s fault. [laughs] But anyway, Hagrid ushers Harry and Hermione away from the Quidditch match, and Harry and Hermione… by the way, this Quidditch match is between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw, and the stage has been set this entire chapter for a big surprise, because Gryffindor goes into this Quidditch match knowing they’re going to lose against Ravenclaw, and Harry and Hermione are like, “Eh, yeah, Ron is not going to do too great, so we might as well leave.” So they go with Hagrid and they trudge into the forest. Leads them deeper into the forest than they’ve been since detention in year one, which is the last time they came across some centaurs in the forest; they’re going to come across some more in this chapter. But for some reason, as was called out in our little five years ago clip Time-Turner installment earlier in this episode, Harry notices that the closer they get to the center, the fewer creatures there are, and that is because Grawp is at the center of the forest, completely disturbing the ecosystem and causing a lot of destruction. But Grawp at first to Harry looks like nothing more than a large mound of earth with a moldy boulder, which ended up being Grawp’s head.
[Eric laughs]
Laura: But Grawp is awakened, and it is pretty rough to read. I had forgotten about this, but Hagrid pokes Grawp with a sharp stick to wake him up, because Hagrid also can’t get too close to him. We also learn through this interaction that this is the source of all Hagrid’s injuries he’s been getting for the last several months, so a lot of pieces come together here in Hagrid making this revelation to Harry and Hermione that he has brought his brother back to Hogwarts.
Eric: The thing about this… and it’s just every time I read this chapter, it makes less and less sense, because if Grawp is doing this to Hagrid, who has thick skin, who’s his brother, his familial connection, if he’s still… Hagrid’s nose was dripping blood this chapter! If he’s doing it to Hagrid, what’s he going to do to these kids? He doesn’t know these kids. How does Hagrid think that this is at all safe for the kids?
Andrew: Yeah, none of this makes sense to me. Hagrid enters the forest with a crossbow. Like you said, he wants the trio to take care of Grawp once Umbridge kicks him out of Hogwarts. But that also confuses me, because I’m like, if Umbridge kicks him out of Hogwarts, couldn’t he still live in his hut, potentially? If not, how about he live in the forest too, or near the forest?
Eric: Right.
Andrew: The forest isn’t technically on Hogwarts grounds, or at least not all of it is, so he could enter from a side of the forest. None of this is really adding up to me. In fact, we see Barty Crouch, Sr. go through the forest, right? Outside of Hogwarts he enters through it. So the whole thing is strange. I guess, Laura, you have a note here: Is Hagrid desperate? That might be the only explanation here. He’s not thinking clearly at all. He’s setting the trio up to be killed.
Micah: He probably has a few concussions too. Maybe that’s why he’s not thinking right.
Andrew: Maybe!
Eric: [laughs] Yeah, the more times you get them, the less clearly you think and rationally. But he’s been minimizing the danger of Umbridge all year, not just for himself, but he’s been really… here’s the other thing: In asking them to take care of Grawp, he’s asking them to break the rules of the school, go out, go off into the Forbidden Forest, and security has never been tighter. They would never get in more trouble than they would right now, and in the past, he’s always the one who has a problem with them going to see him after-hours.
Andrew: Also, it’s not like these kids are on summer break right now; they’ve got plenty going on in their own lives as well, so why does Hagrid put this on them? How about another teacher? Does he trust no one else at the school?
Eric: There’s got to be somebody that he can trust.
Micah: Where’s Dumbledore?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Dumbledore… you know what’s funny, though, Andrew, because you’re saying this, and I think at one point he’s like, “You kids can have Grubbly-Plank.” But I did the math, and if Hagrid was expelled in his third year, which was 50 years ago as of Book 2, he’s actually 66 years of age. Hagrid could just retire. He could just get his retirement and buy a little cave somewhere in the forest.
Laura: Yeah, but with what money?
Eric: Harry could bankroll his friend Hagrid’s retirement.
Laura: Well, yeah, Harry could.
Andrew: Do caves cost money? He can find a nice…
Micah: Hogwarts has to have paid him, no?
Laura: Yeah, but I mean… I don’t know. I just would assume that, like most educators, that Hogwarts teachers probably aren’t paid super well. And I mean, Hagrid has only been a professor for a couple of years now. Up until that point, he’s been a groundskeeper.
Eric: But that’s probably also a paying job. Anyway, look, Hagrid could very easily still live with Grawp, I think, no matter what happens, and even if he is removed from the grounds of Hogwarts, which that reminds me: So the whole thing about Trelawney, right, is that she was fired, but couldn’t be removed from the school because Dumbledore was still headmaster. Now that that’s not the case, we don’t have an update on Trelawney, whether she’s just been allowed to stay in the school, and it’s kind of… I’m ready to call it a plot hole, only because Trelawney is the key to understanding the prophecy, and just like Snape, there’s very few people who know what the prophecy is or what exists surrounding it. Trelawney would be, I think more than usually, target number one for any Death Eaters that are hanging around, so she has to stay at the school. But with Dumbledore gone, we don’t see any plan be putting in place to actually protect Trelawney. Umbridge probably the next day would have been like, “Okay, you’re out.” Where is she?
Micah: It’s a big castle.
Laura: I wonder if Trelawney… yeah, maybe she’s laying low, because we don’t really see her, right?
Micah: She’s drunk with Winky.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, she’s hanging out with the house-elves underground.
Laura: They’re just holed up in the Room of Requirement and having a grand old time.
Eric: But it’s crazy because the one time Trelawney doesn’t really have the protection of anyone or the school is when all the stuff about the prophecy that she made about Harry and Voldemort is coming to a head.
Andrew: I’m inclined to believe she is still there because we don’t hear anything else, but it is a good call-out, Eric, and it, I think, strengthens the point I was bringing up about Hagrid. He should have been able to continue living at the hut, I think, if Trelawney was able to, and he’s not really in the castle, which should please Umbridge.
Micah: Right. But I mean, just in terms of why he’s doing all this, we know that Hagrid has a bit of a saving creatures thing, just like Harry has a bit of a saving people thing, and in this case, it is his brother. So for somebody who is an outcast like Hagrid is, to actually have family out there, this is huge for him, and that’s why he went through the trouble of bringing him back. Harry and Hermione keep asking this question. It’s his blood; it’s his family. This is all he has left, as far as he knows, and it was obviously a surprise to him to find out about this. But I think – I mean, we could poll the group here – but most of us would probably go through the same trouble if we found out that we had a sibling we didn’t know about and it was the only family that we had.
Eric: And wasn’t he about to be killed by the others?
Micah: There’s that too.
Laura: Yeah, he was being bullied.
Andrew: That part is fair, but I think it’s where he puts Grawp, and what he tries to get the trio to do is what makes this whole situation very messy and irresponsible.
Eric: You’re right.
Laura: Yeah, because Grawp is tied up. He doesn’t have movement. He can’t go anywhere. This is not exactly a great situation for Grawp either.
Andrew: No.
Micah: I’m not saying he handles it the right way…
Laura: No, no, no.
Micah: … but I can understand the reasoning behind why he wants Grawp to be with him.
Laura: Oh, yeah. Totally.
Eric: It’s also the reason why he’s deluding himself so heavily about what Grawp’s capabilities are. According to dialogue, Hagrid just thinks that they’re going to be able to teach him English, and then every wizard everywhere will see that Grawp really isn’t a threat at all! Which is the farthest thing. There’s extreme opinions, and then there’s just absolute delusional, and it’s just… ahh, it’s so sad, because you know Hagrid’s got a good heart, but even Ron… or no, it can’t be Ron. Harry must be the one that says to Hermione, “Don’t you wish we had Norbert back?” in this chapter, because Grawp is just ten escalations past. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah. And I mean, Grawp tries to grab Hermione at one point. In the movie, they actually do have him do that.
Eric: They actually do it, yeah.
Laura: And I mean, that’s a point in the movie where I think they’re trying to establish early sympathy for Grawp, because we just don’t see that much of him, and then he has to come to the rescue with the centaurs 20 minutes after that onscreen.
Micah: And also continue to establish Ron and Hermione.
Laura: Yes.
Andrew: I mean, to come to Hagrid’s defense, I guess I would say what other option did he have? Because yes, as we’re saying, it was the right move for Grawp to get him out of the prior situation, but where does he go from here? I think it might be an impossible question, because clearly, if deep in a forest near Hagrid’s hut isn’t the best solution, then what would be? You can’t put him anywhere near public eyes.
Eric: The other question, though, is because Hagrid… the reason Hagrid took forever to get back to Hogwarts is because he was taking Grawp through all the uncivilized lands. Surely there was somewhere on the way back to Hogwarts that would have been a little bit better for Grawp than right here.
Andrew: But I think the proximity to Hagrid is important, too, right? Because he needs to keep an eye on him.
Eric: Yeah, so under that scenario, I would say… and you’re right, because Hogwarts is Hagrid’s familiarity. And so his thinking is, “I can get to my home and make the space for Grawp and make it Grawp’s home too.” That’s right. I was thinking, though, because Hagrid says it in this chapter, he’s like, “You kids have Grubbly-Plank; she’ll lead you through exams.” Hagrid knows that he’s not the best Care of Magical Creatures teacher that’s even currently employed by Hogwarts. He didn’t have to come back to Hogwarts. He could have said, “Sorry, Albus, something came up,” and just… again, retirement age. He could have just stayed with Grawp somewhere, and unfortunately we wouldn’t get to see Hagrid as much, but it probably would have been the best choice for Grawp.
Micah: And I don’t remember the exact timeline, but maybe he’s also looking for Dumbledore to help him out here a little bit. Was Dumbledore already gone by the time Hagrid returned? Or was there maybe not enough of an overlap for him to bring up Grawp?
Eric: I think he was, because Firenze talked to Harry about Hagrid and Firenze was put in place by Dumbledore.
Micah: Right.
Laura: Yeah, well, and Hagrid has been getting beat up ever since he got back to Hogwarts.
Micah: So how does Dumbledore not know about any of this?
Laura: Yeah, it is interesting. I wonder if he does know.
Eric: And he’s like, “One more chess piece that might disrupt Umbridge’s fascist takeover of Hogwarts.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yeah, maybe. Perhaps.
Micah: All I know is if Hagrid ever comes to be in a Street Fighter video game, I am selecting him, because the fact that he can pull giants off of his half-brother and break up a centaur brawl… he’s pretty badass. And he rides a motorbike. [laughs]
Eric: And where’d he get that from, Micah?
Micah: Sirius.
Eric: That’s right.
Micah: But he doesn’t need it anymore.
Eric: Aww.
Laura: Yeah, especially in this book.
Micah: Sorry, Siri. I activated Siri.
Eric: Well, you’re right. It’s pretty badass, and seeing the centaurs are still miffed at Hagrid in this chapter just absolutely… you’re right. As much as we’re talking about Hagrid’s completely asinine, crazy decision, you’re right. He’s still badass.
Laura: Yeah. Well, I think Hagrid is also kind of out of touch with reality. I think Hagrid is afforded a lot of leeway by the creatures in the forest because they know that he has so much respect for them that other wizards don’t. To that point, Hagrid, Harry, and Hermione come across Magorian and Bane, two centaurs in the forest who they had also come across in Book 1, and Bane gives them a pretty stark warning to say, “Hagrid, we are no longer on speaking terms with you. We’re no longer friends with you, effectively, because you took Firenze’s side. You stopped us from killing him, basically, and because of that, we no longer are going to allow you to come into the forest safely, and the only reason we’re letting you out now is because you have two young foals with you.” And Harry and Hermione are pretty concerned about Hagrid asking them to come back into the forest to look after Grawp, rightly, because they’ve just gotten this warning from the centaurs, and Hagrid waves it off and says, “Oh, they’re never going to attack kids.” Well, press X to doubt, because that’s exactly what will happen if Grawp doesn’t intervene a few chapters from now, and I just think it’s really interesting that Hagrid, more than once, has put the trio in danger by leading them to believe that because they were friends of his, they would also be safe in the forest, but we know that’s not true. Look at Aragog in Chamber of Secrets.
Andrew: And it’s really messed up that Hagrid might have been thinking, “I’m going to ask the trio to take care of Grawp, because I’m pretty sure the centaurs are going to let them pass through the forest whenever they want.” That is so messed up. He’s setting them up to be killed. We’ve used the phrase “pig for slaughter”; that comes to mind here. Magorian and Bane suck in this chapter, too, because they’re talking about like they own the forest; they get to decide what the forest is used for. No one owns the forest, it seems to me, so no one should get a say in what’s going on there.
Micah: Right.
Andrew: What, Laura?
Laura: So here’s the thing: Where else are the centaurs allowed to live?
Andrew: I’m not saying they can’t live there; I’m saying they don’t get to decide what Hagrid gets up to in the forest. It’s kind of a free-for-all. I was trying to think of a parallel between this and the Muggle world, and the closest thing I could get to was a public park. But even that is government-owned; this is just, again, a free-for-all.
Eric: I think that it’s government sanctioned. It’s like a reservation, probably. The interesting thing in the wizarding world is that there’s more than one sentient creature on the planet; there’s more than one sentient species, and so there are rules, but the area that’s been given to the centaurs is allowed to fall under basically centaur rules. Centaur justice is what Hagrid has interrupted. They didn’t let Hagrid… or they didn’t get to kill Firenze, so they’re miffed about it, but Grawp… at the same time, it is public. Not 100% of the forest is the centaurs’, and so there’s this gray area now where Grawp is tearing up the local trees. It’s not that he’s in the middle of the centaurs’ city or town or village or whatever, but at the same time, he’s like an unwanted neighbor, and the tension…
Andrew: Well, we all have those. That’s life, kid.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: Yeah, I think the centaurs have just never had to have that awful neighbor down the street. Leave the TV up too loud, just completely destroys the sidewalk and flora and fauna…
Laura: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. I guess all I’m saying is, no, I don’t think it’s right that the centaurs should tell anyone whether they can or can’t come and go in the forest, but I think when you have a society that has pushed groups to the fringes and basically made it known that they are persona non grata – they’re not good enough to hold political office, they’re not good enough to go to your wizard school – you’re kind of forcing them to the fringes of society. And when you do that, and people make their own communities with the scraps of what society gives them, yeah, they’re going to be a little testy when somebody says, “Hey, I should be allowed to walk in this forest too,” because the centaurs are probably thinking, “You literally get everything else. The world is your oyster.”
Eric: Well, that’s also… I think that’s why they don’t also kill Grawp immediately, is because giants have been pushed into obscurity and the high, high mountain ranges because of the Statute of Secrecy, and as such, they haven’t been allowed to thrive. Their population has dwindled, and Grawp is the last one of a very, very few.
Micah: Well, I mean, in fairness, though, we’ve seen the centaurs operate with an air of arrogance throughout the series, and I don’t know if that’s… it’s hard to say, would they always have operated that way, regardless of how they were treated by wizardkind? But I mean, if you look… Bane’s name, right? His name origin is a cause of great annoyance; that’s what his name means. He’s definitely the ass-hat of the two, between him and Magorian.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: But in fairness to the centaurs, I will say, Hagrid does dump his creature trash in the Forbidden Forest.
Andrew: Wow.
Micah: Which is the home of these centaurs. And going back to what we were talking about earlier with dumpsters, he doesn’t do the best job of taking care of them either, right? Think about Aragog. Think about Grawp.
Eric: It’s like somebody’s dog is eating your begonias and actually destroying the whole flower bed and salting the earth.
Andrew: I liked Eric’s example of sometimes you have bad neighbors. This is it! This is living in an open society. Welcome to having to coexist with other people or creatures. Sorry. I can’t feel bad for them. No sympathy.
Micah: And it was mentioned earlier, sort of the meddling in centaur affairs, and Hagrid is straight up told by Magorian and Bane in this chapter that he shouldn’t be doing that. And it reminds me of how Hermione has gotten a lot of feedback from… maybe not house-elves… actually, in some cases house-elves directly…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … but other members of the wizarding community to stay out of the affairs of house-elves; she doesn’t understand them. So just creating those parallels here. Obviously, different situations, but we’re talking about two types of sentient magical creatures that wizards are trying to meddle in their affairs.
Eric: Like, “We don’t want your help, we didn’t ask for your help, and also, why are you making this worse for us?”
Micah: Exactly.
Eric: Like Hermione interfering with the house-elves’ ability to do their jobs by scattering these hats everywhere in Gryffindor tower. There’s something to that comparison for sure.
Laura: Well, and also leaving more trash, because what she does is she leaves them under trash, so that when they pick up the trash, they accidentally pick up the hat.
Micah: Whole lot of trash in this chapter.
Eric: She’s sneaky. Lots of trash.
Andrew: And to that point, LegalizeGillyweed in our Discord is wondering, “Do we think centaurs have HOA dumpster drama in the forest?”
[Eric laughs]
Laura: 100%. They totally would. They just… Bane strikes me as the person… Bane would be the head of the HOA, 100%. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, Grawp is the bulky item that Bane does not want to be put into their forest, and so it’s just going to be kept to the side of it.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: Well, we are greeted by some unexpected levity at the end of this chapter. By the time Harry, Hermione, and Hagrid battle their way out of the forest – and they are covered head to toe in cuts and brambles and sticks because of how deep in the forest they were – they get back to the Quidditch pitch just as the match has ended, and they are unfortunately, or so they think, hearing the chorus of “Weasley Is Our King” in the distance. Harry and Hermione are, of course, assuming that Gryffindor has lost, but as the oncoming crowd gets closer and they see the figure that is hoisted up on their shoulders, they realize that not only has Gryffindor won the match, Gryffindor has won the Quidditch Cup, and the Gryffindors have rewritten the words to “Weasley Is Our King” to be a little more complimentary of Ron’s Quidditch skills.
Eric: They must have been in the forest a real long time for all this to have happened.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Well, hey, and I mean, it says something about Ron, I think, that he actually got his Quidditch sea legs about him when nobody that was really close to him was there to see it happen. And for an odd and end, I wanted to call out something Hermione said early in the chapter, which… she was like, “I think Ron may do better now that Fred and George are gone and they’re not going to be able to spectate.” Do we actually think that is something that might have improved Ron’s performance in this match?
Andrew: I think so. Something like that would throw me off. If I knew my brothers were there who have a history of taunting me, I would definitely feel intimidated by their presence. It just reminds me in life in general, if you start overthinking things, that can really negatively affect your performance. So yeah, I think Hermione is spot on here.
Laura and Micah: Agreed.
Superlative of the Week
Laura: Well, now we are going to get into our best MVP entry of the week. This week’s question is: What was the best resistance strategy in this chapter?
Andrew: So I loved Fred and George’s Skiving Snackboxes because the twins are still actively haunting Umbridge, even though they’re not at the school, so their skillset lingers.
Eric: I really don’t think it’s going to get better for me than the Niffler incident, because it’s described in such detail. It’s like when you see an opossum or raccoon in your backyard; you’re like, “What are you doing here?” Umbridge has probably had a horrible day; she comes back and is like, “I’m in my office,” and then there’s this creature that full on just leaps at her and is trying to pluck the rings off of her stubby fingers. This had to have been utter chaos. Mwah, I love it.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I’m going to say letting Peeves off his leash. I think this was the best thing to do because it requires no effort from you as the person letting him off his leash; you just let Peeves go and he’ll go and he’ll create chaos. It’s perfect.
Micah: For me it’s just the blissful ignorance on the part of McGonagall and Flitwick. I’m sure other professors, too, but those specifically are called out. The fact that it’s noted they likely could have helped to get rid of the marsh that the Weasley twins created, and they likely could help Umbridge restore order within the school, but eh, you know what? Nothing to see here.
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Laura: But why?
Andrew: Well, and it’s just so satisfying to see adults, faculty at the school, working against one of their coworkers, after all Umbridge has done this book. Very satisfying. Because the kids, yeah, of course you expect the kids to do it; they’re kids. But for the adults, very entertaining.
Lynx Line
Laura: All right, and now we are going to bring it home with our Lynx Line. This is where MuggleCast listeners who are members of our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast can answer a weekly question related to that week’s topic. This week’s question was: Was Hagrid wrong to bring Grawp back to England with him, or was it ultimately the right thing to do?
Andrew: We got some mixed feedback, too, I would say. People are split on his decision. Eleanor said,
“I think the answer to this one depends on whose point of view you’re choosing to think about. Hagrid is clear that Grawp is being ill-treated, and he fears for his survival. So from Grawp’s point of view, it was the right decision to take him away. The alternative was possibly death. From Hagrid’s perspective, he’s putting family first – again, the ‘right’ thing to do. But if you put yourself in the golden trio’s shoes, then it doesn’t seem ‘right,’ as Grawp clearly doesn’t belong in Scotland (not England!)…”
Laura: Oh, yeah. Fair, fair, fair.
Andrew: ” … away from other giants, and he’s essentially wreaking havoc, including on Hagrid. To be honest, there wasn’t a right or wrong answer here, only difficult choices. Hagrid did what he thought was right.”
Eric: Love that. Rachel says,
“Since we get the series from Harry’s point of view, I was trying to think of this for him. While he might think Hagrid was crazy for bringing Grawp, there is not a doubt in my mind he’d have done the same thing. He knows what it’s like to live somewhere you aren’t welcomed, and as we see so many times, is always looking to help others. I think a more interesting question is would Hagrid have brought Grawp if they weren’t related, seeing how he was treated? I think he would have.”
Andrew: Oh.
Laura: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I agree.
Eric: That’s interesting. I think he would have maybe brought him, but he wouldn’t have tried so hard to civilize him.
Andrew: Maybe.
Micah: Zachary says,
“I may be biased, but I’ve always read this as an allegory to living with someone who has special needs. I believe Hagrid made the right decision in bringing his brother closer to him to ensure his safety. Having a little brother myself who is on the high-functioning side of the spectrum, I would do the same for him. It’s not like he brought him to an abandoned part of the castle. Hagrid is doing his best to try and integrate his brother into a society that would otherwise ignore him. I believe Hagrid did what any of us who has a heart and some shred of humanity would do for our loved ones.”
Andrew: I agree with all that.
Micah: Amen.
Laura: Helen says,
“I think Hagrid’s decision whether to bring Grawp back to England…”
A.k.a. Scotland; I apologize again.
“… or not is a classic moral dilemma, and Hagrid having to choose between the lesser of two evils. On the one hand, Grawp was clearly being abused and mistreated by the other giants, so leaving him in France with the rest of his kind, where the abuse was sure to continue, is not the right moral choice. On the other hand, Grawp clearly didn’t want to leave. Hagrid had to force him and fight with him the whole way to get him back to Scotland. And once he was there, Hagrid had to keep Grawp restrained to keep him from leaving. Forcing someone to leave their home and go somewhere against their will is also not a right moral choice. So this puts Hagrid in a moral and ethical dilemma. Given that neither option was morally or ethically right, Hagrid had to make the choice that he could live with. Could he live with himself knowing that he left his brother behind to be abused and mistreated for the rest of his life? No. Could he live with himself knowing that he forced his brother to leave his home and had to continue keeping him there against his will? Yes. Hagrid chose Grawp’s safety over his autonomy.”
That’s a really good point.
Andrew: Girishma said,
“Bringing Grawp back to the Forbidden Forest was definitely risky, and from a safety standpoint, was arguably irresponsible. Grawp was unpredictable, difficult to control, and his presence put students (and Hagrid himself) in danger. I think Hagrid acted emotionally, but also out of a deep sense of familial duty and the belief that Grawp could be taught to live peacefully. That’s admirable, but it’s also where Hagrid tends to blur the lines between compassion and recklessness (like with Aragog or the Blast-Ended Skrewts). But let’s be real, it WAS the right thing to do. Grawp at the end of the series does grow, literally and emotionally. He forms a bond with Hagrid and even helps during the Battle of Hogwarts, fighting on the right side. That redemption arc wouldn’t have been possible if Hagrid had left him behind. So perhaps wrong in method, and right in motivation.”
The arc is important to keep in mind.
Eric: Yeah. Jennifer says,
“I truly think Hagrid had it right when he brought Grawp back to Hogwarts. Grawp had no other family besides Hagrid. His smaller stature than the other giants would lead to bullying. While not always making the smartest moves, Hagrid did this with the very best of intentions.”
Micah: And then AJ wraps this up, asking, “Was Grawp chained in the book, or was that just in the movie? He was right to rescue him from the other giants, but wrong to enslave him.” I think there were restraints.
Laura: He was tied up.
Eric: There’s ropes. It’s ropes.
Andrew: He was tied up, yeah, and we see that in Mary Grand-Pré’s art at the start of the chapter.
Micah: It’s just so hard, because if he’s not restrained in some way, you don’t know what he’s going to do and what he’s capable of. And I know that’s part of the package of bringing him back, but it’s not just like… Hagrid can’t be with him all the time, so I’m not advocating for this, but I’m just trying to figure out what other way can Hagrid leave Grawp knowing that he’s going to be safe? Not only… he has to both protect Grawp from himself, as well as from other creatures in the forest.
Andrew: It’s tough all around. It’s tough all around. The part I get most hung up on is asking the trio. That’s the part I’m like, “Eugh.”
Eric: The most perplexing part about all of this is the exit plan, the idea that when Hagrid leaves Hogwarts, that Grawp wouldn’t be going with him. Because, as we’ve seen our listeners all talk about, and we’ve talked about this whole episode, is that there’s not a better place… the one thing that makes sense for Grawp about where he is and what he’s doing is that his brother is here, so why wouldn’t Hagrid take him with him?
Andrew: All right, great feedback, everybody. Don’t forget, you can participate in the Lynx Line every week by becoming a patron at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. If you have feedback about today’s episode, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that you record on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We’ll have a new Muggle Mail episode for everybody in a few weeks, so please send in that feedback. Next week on the show, we will discuss Chapter 31 of Order of the Phoenix, “O.W.L.s.” And it is summertime; maybe you’re spending more time outside or on the go right now, so while you’re on the move, check out our other weekly podcasts, What the Hype?! and Millennial, for more pop culture and real world talk from the four of us. On What the Hype?!, we’re discussing our favorite dads in pop culture in light of Father’s Day last week, and over on Millennial, we were talking about society’s worst public habits. There is a study on that and if people are just getting crazier in general. If Hagrid is any indication, yes, I think so. So check out both of those shows.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s question: Filch seeks approval for whipping from Umbridge. The sound of a bullwhip cracking is caused by what specific thing occurring with the whip? And the correct answer is a sonic boom. What happens is the tip of the whip is traveling so fast that it actually breaks the sound barrier.
Andrew: Whoa.
Eric: Pretty cool stuff.
Laura: Wow.
Andrew: As McGonagall goes, “BOOM!”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Or she goes, [imitates a whipcrack]
Andrew: [laughs] A McGona-boom.
Eric: McGona-boom. McGona-whip?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: We’ll workshop this. We’re going to take a… we’ll take some patrons and we’ll go and think it up. 50% of people who submitted the correct answer did not look it up, which, that’s pretty good odds. And correct answers were submitted by Oh the Deadwood Stage is a-rollin’ on over the plains; A Healthy Breeze; A speech language pathologist who just wants Laura to know it’s never too late to find yourself…
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Aww! Agreed.
Laura: That’s so sweet.
Eric: I love that this has become a contact form, basically.
Micah: I love the next one.
Eric: Drill Me, Mr. Dursley…
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Oh.
Eric: … 50 Shades of Filch; Filch’s Floggings; Hagrid’s Missing Secret Filter; I like to move it move it; I’m a nerd; Lumos Knox; McGonaGo-Girl; Muggleluvin Muffin; Sirius is a Skibidy Sigma Rizzler; Took too much physics in college; Orangutan emoji; Where in the World is Count Ravioli; and Whiiiiiipendo! And here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: What wrestler, who stood at the giant height of seven feet four inches, was also an actor, starring in a film that featured not a Forbidden Forest, but a Fire Swamp? Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website on the Quizzitch form, which can be found by visiting MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or on the MuggleCast website at the main nav on top.
Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. Don’t forget to visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast to become a member and support us; we really appreciate your support there. Also, please leave a review in your favorite podcast app, and tell a friend about the show. Thanks, everyone, for listening. I already said that. I’m Andrew.
Eric: We can always thank them for listening. I’m Eric.
Andrew: [laughs] Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!
Eric: You like us!
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Thanks, everyone, for listening. Bye.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Thanks again!
Laura: Man, you’re just extra thankful today.
Eric: If it’s in the document, we’re just going to read it.
Andrew: Many thanks.
Laura: Yeah, what can we say?