Transcript #466

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #466, Weasleys Victorious (OOTP 29, Career Advice)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Laura Tee: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Laura.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura: No Andrew this week, but we do have one of our Slug Club supporters over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, Ryan, joining us. Hey, Ryan. How are you?

Ryan: I’m good, y’all. How about y’all?

Laura: Doing great. Ryan, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?

Ryan: Yeah, I’m from Georgia. My favorite book is a toss-up between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix. Favorite movie; I don’t really have one anymore, because I really like the audiobooks a lot better. I’m a Gryffindor, I’m a Pukwudgie, my Patronus is a fox, and my favorite Marauder is Lupin.

Eric: Nice.

Laura: Awesome. We’ve got a nice balance of Houses here today. Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw…

Eric: Yep, and those are the only Houses there are!

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, Andrew will be back with us tomorrow for Quizzitch Live.


News


Laura: But we do have a little bit of news to dig into before we dig into Chapter by Chapter this week. So WizardingWorld.com has continued their reading of the first Harry Potter book. Most recently, Eddie Redmayne and Stephen Fry read Chapters 3 and 4 of Sorcerer’s/Philosopher’s Stone. Did y’all get a chance to listen?

Eric: I meant to be exactly on top of this, but I haven’t yet been able to listen to Eddie or Stephen.

Ryan: I haven’t either.

Laura: I gave both of them a listen today. They were really good. I was actually very impressed with Eddie Redmayne; I think this could be a backup career for him.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Now, he does – I did peak at his – he does some voices, right?

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Which so far, I don’t think anyone’s really embellished or done the voices. Now, to be fair, the first two chapters of the first book don’t necessarily have all that much dialogue, but I did manage to hear Eddie do some of the voices of the Dursleys and things.

Laura: It’s awesome.

Micah: Yeah, I haven’t had a chance to listen through yet, but I know Eddie has done some other projects similar to this before. He’s definitely into it; to Laura, your point, he really enjoys it. You can tell he likes being a part of the Wizarding World as a whole. One question I did have, though, was with Stephen Fry, what was the decision there behind getting him involved? Obviously, he’s voiced these books, these characters before. They probably could have held off on him a little bit instead of going to him for the fourth chapter.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I feel like maybe that was a little bit of an easy out for them.

Eric: Yeah, I wondered that. That was actually my initial thought when they were previewing this Harry Potter at Home chapter reading, was, “Oh, Stephen Fry, huh? You don’t say. The guy who did all the audiobooks.” [laughs]

Micah: Right, that’s what I was wondering. Did they just use the one that he did 20 years ago?

[Ryan laughs]

Eric: I mean, unless they had it on HD video, I doubt it. [laughs] But I mean, that’s the thing; he did rerecord it. It’s a new recording, so I think it counts. But I mean, he is just a massive presence in Britain, a massive star. He’s probably the biggest star they’ve had so far. He’s bigger than Dan Radcliffe, I’d say.

Laura: Whoa.

Eric: So pretty exciting. But I worry a little bit that maybe they’re front-loading these chapters, unless they plan to go back to some of these actors in the future. Because they’ve got… of the stars that they have announced, there’s really not that many left.

Laura: Well, we’ll see. They might save the best for last.

Micah: How do you mean?

Eric: Well, they’ve got… David Beckham is coming on. Can’t seem to recall anybody else that’s coming up…

Micah: Who’s notably larger than anybody who has already read the Harry Potter books. I know you were talking about Stephen Fry, and obviously, huge over in the UK, but David Beckham probably trumps him in terms of celebrity status, at least internationally.

Eric: Yeah, pretty cool.

Micah: But what about…? I mean, it’d be cool if they were able to get Maggie Smith or a few of the other older Potter actors or professors to do the voices of some of these chapters.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, Michael Gambon could scream-shout a chapter to us.

[Laura and Ryan laugh]

Laura: You know, this could be an opportunity for redemption for Michael Gambon.

Eric: [laughs] Oh my God, the headline could be “Michael Gambon reads a Harry Potter book.”

[Laura laughs]

Ryan: Well, “gently reads a Harry Potter book.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: “Calmly reads.” You know what? I still love Michael Gambon. I know I’m in the minority on this, but I think he’s great.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: He redeemed himself.

Laura: Yeah, I think so. Well, speaking of things that you can do to keep yourself entertained during quarantine, we recorded another installment of Quizzitch Live over the weekend. This installment was called the Goblet of Popcorn.

Micah: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Eric and I worked together to come up with a bunch of movie trivia questions, and we hope that everybody enjoyed them. We were, of course, joined by Chris Rankin, who played Percy Weasley in the Potter films, and it was a lot of fun. Now, I think we can give away the secret here, right? We’re recording on Saturday, so we’re assuming that it was a lot of fun.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Everybody had a great time. The questions were well received. But if it’s any indication, the last three that we’ve done, this one will go off without a hitch.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, it’s going to be great.

Laura: Yeah, these are always a ton of fun. There’s usually several hundred of you playing live, including my mom.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: My mom has gotten very into Quizzitch Live, so she was there.

Eric: Nice.

Laura: At least, I’m assuming she was there, at this point. [laughs] Before we get into some Muggle Mail, we just wanted to make an announcement about our new T-shirt. Now is the time to support the show and help it grow, because we just announced the MuggleCast 15th Anniversary T-shirt. It features a new crest to celebrate our birthday, and is available in two cuts and colors. If you pledge by June 30 at Patreon.com/MuggleCast and remain a patron for at least three months, you’ll receive one for yourself. You’ll also receive instant access to loads of other benefits, including bonus MuggleCast, which is 20 to 30 minutes of extra podcasting, access to our recording studio, our chapter readings, and a whole lot more.


Listener Feedback


Laura: Now we can dig into some Muggle Mail. Eric, you want to kick us off?

Eric: Sure, this is from Pat.

“Hi! I love your show. I’m a lifelong OG Potterhead. I am a healthcare worker who has studied biology and physiology pretty extensively, so I wanted to give some insight as to the science of memory and how it relates to the Pensieve.”

Oh boy, guys. We asked for this.

Micah: We did ask for this.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Pat says,

“Unfortunately, the Pensieve is biological BS. As far as I know, memory is pretty fickle and unreliable. Sometimes people think they remember things that happened when they were kids, but they were actually just told about them so many times that the brain has created a false ‘memory.’ If you watch true crime, people are always talking about how the ‘bad guy’ was always shady, and something was off about him, etc… This is probably BS; information and emotions after the fact can alter our perceptions of our memory. There is also no way Snape can remember things like the Marauders’ conversation, because he didn’t experience it in the first place. Have you listened to Wizard Team podcast? They do a take on this chapter which is pretty spot on from a neurological perspective. Their conclusion is that Snape is subconsciously filling in the blanks of the Marauders’ dialogue based on his subjective perception of their personalities. Of course, JKR has said the Pensieve is fact. I don’t think she studied much about memory, but I love her anyway.”

Eric: Yeah, I’m inclined to say that’s the magic of the Pensieve, and that those conversations that Harry witnessed in the last chapter really did occur, but I couldn’t for a second explain it scientifically.

Laura: Yeah, I think this is one of those areas where we have to suspend our disbelief and chalk it up to magic. But I can understand why, to somebody who’s studied in this field, this would be a little bit like there’s no way this could ever happen. So again, Pat, thank you for this. We did ask for it, so we appreciate the scientific explanation.

Eric: [laughs] For sure.

Micah: Totally. Next email comes from Leah, who says,

“Just a quick thought here: I agree that it’s disappointing that Lupin ultimately doesn’t stand up to his friends in Snape’s Worst Memory, but I think there’s something we’re forgetting. Lupin isn’t *just* afraid that his friends will leave him — he’s afraid because he’s already a member of an extremely marginalized and stigmatized group, since he’s a werewolf. I could completely understand that, once finding a group of friends who accepted him, not wanting to jeopardize his position as no longer being an outsider. I don’t think it justifies his actions (or lack thereof), but I think it’s important to remember Lupin’s own context and circumstances.”

Laura: Agree.

Micah: Yeah, this is a really great point, Leah. And I think that it doesn’t necessarily excuse his behavior, as you mentioned; I think Lupin even touches on that in the upcoming chapter that we’re about to discuss. But certainly you would think, given his condition of being a werewolf, that he would want to protect that first and foremost. Also keeping in mind that all three of these people that are his closest friends know about it, so what happens if he shows any sort of sympathy towards Snape? Do they risk the possibility of that information getting out?

Eric: Pretty interesting. I like to believe that Dumbledore really set Lupin up for success here with… I mean, day one, when he came to Hogwarts, he had this whole Shrieking Shack set up to become a werewolf, to be able to transform safely. And it’s a shame to think of Lupin’s condition still overshadowing all of his interactions, preventing him from really standing up to his friends and living a full life at school. But I understand that despite what should happen on page, the reality is a little bit murkier.

Ryan: You can definitely see that with his and Tonks’s relationship.

Eric: Oh, heavens, yes.

Ryan: He wants to be happy, but he denies that to himself because he doesn’t want to bring Tonks into that lifestyle.

Eric: There you go.

Micah: I do think, though, that Lupin may have been surprised at how James or Sirius would have reacted if he would have stepped in. I think Lupin does command a level of respect even at this young age; he may just not realize it.

Eric: I think that’s exactly true, yeah. To your point, he kind of has powers he doesn’t realize he has.

Laura: Definitely a tortured soul, yeah. All right, well, Ryan is going to read our next piece of feedback from Daniela.

Ryan: I’m glad you said the name, because I was like, “I think it’s Daniela; I’m not sure.”

“Hi MuggleCast, I was listening to your most recent episode, 465, about Snape’s Worst Memory, and I had a few thoughts. Firstly, while I sometimes loathe to have anything in common with Snape, I too was bullied at school, and am a teacher myself. While the memory definitely gives some context to Snape’s behavior when it comes to Harry, I’ve never understood why he was so mean to Neville, mean enough to be his worst fear (evident in his boggart taking his shape). We do not know if Snape had anything to do with the Longbottoms at school, and was wondering your thoughts on this. Secondly, you were discussing whether when Snape calls Lily a Mudblood, they already had a falling out and were not friends. We know in the chapter ‘The Prince’s Tale’ in Deathly Hallows that calling her a Mudblood was the last straw for Lily, who had been excusing his poor behavior and was concerned because he was friends with Death Eaters. However, I think this moment is when they actually have a falling out and possibly seldom talk again. Some people may think this is super harsh, especially considering how many times Hermione is called a Mudblood in the series by Draco Malfoy. However, considering the negative reaction from Ron and other wizards when we first heard the term in Chamber of Secrets, I can only imagine that in the 1970s, the word was more uncommon and prohibited than in 1995, therefore it was much worse that anyone said it, let alone a friend. Sorry for the long email. Thank you for keeping me entertained in lockdown (which we are just coming out of here in Melbourne, Australia).”

Ryan: The first part of this, the reason I think maybe he’s so against Neville is because every time he sees him, he sees a kid that could have taken Harry’s place, and Lily would still be here if he had chosen Neville instead of Harry.

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Oooh, that’s really dark.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: But a good point.

Eric: Yeah, I love it. He does have that inside info. He’s one of the three people in the world that knows what Neville could have been, so perhaps Neville’s incompetence gets at him personally.

Micah: Yeah, I really like that thought. I also just think Snape is a bit of a you-know-what…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … and when he sees opportunity to make light of certain people, he takes advantage of that opportunity. And again, we’re going to talk about this in the upcoming chapter, but when Snape isn’t literally hovering over Harry during Potions, Harry is actually pretty good at it, and I think there’s more to that. And I think the same could be said of Neville. If Neville just got a little bit of confidence – and we see it develop throughout the course of the next couple of books – he’s actually pretty good, so I just think Snape is a miserable human being at times.

Eric: Yeah. And he’s also a big, big tightarse, tightwad, whatever you’d call that. Because if you think about it, back in day one of Potions, he comes into the classroom talking about dunderheads, right? “If you aren’t as big a lot of dunderheads as I usually have to teach,” back in Book 1. So he’s really concerned with people who can’t cut it. And in this chapter that we’re going to read, “Career Advice,” McGonagall says that Snape doesn’t take anyone under the Outstanding level into his NEWT class, Outstanding being the top grade that it is possible to get on the OWLs. So Snape is just not wasting his time with lesser students who, again, can’t cut it. I think that’s just who he is.

Micah: He’s not looking to coach, right? At the end of the day.

Eric: Exactly. That’s exactly it, yeah.

Micah: And that’s what makes it comical that he’s teaching Harry Remedial Potions; that’s the cover story.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Because at the end of the day, Snape doesn’t really care. And that’s why I think, too, there’s a bit of that attitude towards Neville, because he’s just looking at Neville as if he’s completely incompetent. There’s a level of perfection I think that Snape really demands of his students. He’s the Half-Blood Prince; he came up with all these different spells and really different ways to create potions, right? We see it in the next book. I mean, he completely goes against what the normal textbook would say; he creates his own way of doing things, and so I think that’s a certain kind of mindset that he has. But as far as the second part of this, I find it interesting, yeah, that perhaps “Mudblood” was almost a term that wasn’t even allowed back in the 1970s, and then now here in the ’90s, when it’s being said to Hermione, it’s completely taboo, like it’s over time… as a lot of racial slurs that we know of here could be compared to.

Eric: Yeah, you can probably hear it on the radio nowadays.

Laura: Yeah. Okay, we have one more piece of feedback from Debbie. Debbie says,

“Just wanted to comment on Harry’s actions of sneaking a look into the Pensieve in Snape’s Worst Memory. While it is not the greatest choice on Harry’s part, I like that Jo wrote him as a flawed and human character who gave into his curiosity. The movie version had him triumphing over Snape in Occlumency and seeing that memory quite by accident and due to skill. Makes Harry too much of the hero who can do no wrong. P.S. I may or may not give the ‘Suck Count giggle’ every time I tap a Wrackspurt in Umbridge’s office in Wizard’s Unite.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: That phrase out of context…

Eric: Yep.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: All right, well, before we dive into our Chapter by Chapter discussion on “Career Advice,” I have some advice for you, and it concerns your mouth.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Laura: All right, we’re going to go ahead and dive into our Seven-Word Summary for Chapter 29 of Order of the Phoenix, “Career Advice.” And Ryan, it looks like you’ll be kicking us off, and the music will start once your word has been contributed.

Ryan: All right. Harry…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: … speaks…

Micah: … to…

Eric: … McGonagall…

Ryan: … about…

Laura: … career…

Micah: … opportunities.

Eric: There you go.

[Ryan laughs]

Eric: Thank you for not ending it in “advice.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: All right, well, Micah, take us away.

Micah: All right. Yeah, well, we will talk about career opportunities a little bit later on, and we actually are going to reenact that scene between McGonagall and Umbridge, because it was cut from the movies, and there are actually a number of people who wrote in about that, so we’ll touch on that. But the chapter itself starts off with Harry not in the best of moods, which is no surprise, considering this is Order of the Phoenix

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but one thing I’ll say for him is he does seem to be doing a halfway decent job of masking his frustration in this chapter as a whole, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that exams are coming up, that OWLs are not that far away, and I think it keeps Hermione in particular at bay, right?

Laura: Yeah, everybody’s sort of willing to accept this exam excuse.

Micah: Right. And I was wondering, have we ever been in similar situations where we’ve been upset about something, but we’ve used something else as an excuse as to why we’re in such a terrible, terrible mood?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I’m sure I’ve done that. I think also with Harry, though, that he just doesn’t have an idea of how to proceed right away. When the chapter opens, he’s very haunted by what he saw in Snape’s Pensieve, but he doesn’t have anything to do about it, so he can’t really react to it. He is just lost. He kind of spends the next couple weeks, I think, wandering just around, being upset. But until you have a plan, or… he just doesn’t think it’s really possible to really follow up on his issue, so he’s kind of quietly smoldering, quietly frustrated here.

Laura: Yeah, at the same time, though, he does exhibit a little bit of bias here in the opening of the chapter, right? He clearly feels really bad about what he witnessed, and super conflicted about his father’s behavior, but then he’s trying to justify it by thinking he would never do that to anybody except somebody who really deserved it, like Malfoy.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And I was like, “Well, your dad clearly thought Snape deserved it.” And I thought that this was a really interesting contrast to James’s behavior by looking back to Prisoner of Azkaban, where Harry is under the Invisibility Cloak in Hogsmeade and is throwing mud at Malfoy for harassing Ron, and I thought this was kind of cool, because at least when Harry is doing this, he’s defending his friend, because Malfoy is actually being a huge jerk, whereas Snape wasn’t doing anything when James decided to bully him.

Ryan: Well, I wonder, as far as Snape is concerned… we see in Deathly Hallows when he’s looking through the memories that Snape gives Harry that Lily accuses him of hanging out with the Death Eaters, this, that, and the other, so I do wonder what kind of things Snape was involved in that James and other students might have known about, so James is considering it open season on Snape anytime because of all the horrible stuff he was doing.

Laura: Yeah, totally.

Eric: Yeah, I wonder that, too. And it comes up later in the chapter, too; Snape and his connection to the Dark Arts seem absolute, and a lot of people know about him.

Micah: Yeah. I do wonder, though, at the same time, if the way that Snape was treated by James and Sirius in particular drove him to become more aligned with the Death Eaters as friends at Hogwarts.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I think Snape is somebody who had trouble with social acceptance anyway, and that already predisposed him to fall into whatever crowd would have him. Definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy, though.

Ryan: Yeah, and we see that repeated in Cursed Child as well.

Laura: Ooh, yeah.

Ryan: Well, if you found that canon.

[Laura and Ryan laugh]

Laura: Do you consider it canon, Ryan?

[Micah laughs]

Ryan: I was one of those people who got halfway through it, I put it down, and then after a while, I was like, “All right, at least let me read through it.” I just like to pretend like it didn’t happen. I know it exists, but I don’t want to think about it.

Laura: I still haven’t read it, so you’re doing better than me.

[Ryan laughs]

Eric: I think there are some good character comparisons to be drawn from it. I like that we can touch on it, be like, “Oh, it’s kind of similar.”

Micah: Part of the frustration that Harry is dealing with at the start of the chapter is directly related to how James and Lily could have possibly fallen in love with each other, gotten together, married, had Harry, just based on the scene that he’s witnessed. And Andrew, who actually put this in here, talked a little bit about the different options here. He mentions that one of our listeners, Maria, called in about this, and the two options that were laid out… the first is that they simply grew up, right? And I think we hear a little bit about this from Sirius and Remus later on in the chapter. James grew out of some of his habits that really annoyed Lily, and it was just enough for Lily to start taking a liking to this handsome boy. So that’s option one, and then we could go back and say which one we think happened. The second one we heard from listener Mary. She said,

“The change in James Potter also begins in Snape’s Worst Memory. It marks a shift in his feelings for Lily, from superficial attraction to respect. Lily wins the showdown with James, and in the process, tells him a few home truths about himself. I doubt they sink in all at once, but James seems to have some capacity for self-reflection. Perhaps he would have outgrown some of his sillier affectations anyway, but the confrontation with Lily hastens the process. A humbler James, who keeps his bullying side in check, shows his better nature to Lily and slowly wins her over.”

What do you all think? I think it could be a combination of these two, honestly.

Eric: Yeah. I think it’s difficult, too, to even trust what Sirius says on the matter later in the chapter, just because nobody is speaking for James himself; James isn’t here to really give us his side of what happened. But I think he put in the work, but he was definitely, I think, motivated by “This is how you win over Evans, who you’re into.” So I think that as he attempted to woo her, he realized that he would have to slow down on the taunts of Snape. The interesting thing is that in the chapter, when Sirius talks to Harry about it, he kind of indicates that James didn’t stop his torture of Snape and that she just didn’t know really much about it, so I think a lot of what happened was Lily might have also chosen to turn a blind eye to what James was doing to Snape.

Laura: Yeah, I think also, Sirius and Remus do a really good job here – or later in the chapter – of explaining to Harry, “Hey, you were just seeing a very small snippet of a representation of your father, so you can’t take that as the gospel and paint with a broad brush and assume that that’s what he was like all the time.” And certainly Snape had his own share of moments when he would hex James too.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s stated. But Harry is in such a state right now that he wonders if his father hadn’t taken his mother by force; that’s literally in the chapter. And it’s so telling that Harry is dealing with this complete upside down topsy-turviness of his reality. His reality has been upside down, and J.K. Rowling does a really good job of writing all the times that he’s been complimented for looking like his father, he has swelled with pride; it’s even been a couple of happy memories for Patronus conjuring and the like, and now he is really feeling like it has all been unwritten because of the memory that he has witnessed, because of, really, the malice in James’s behavior. So can’t put too fine a point on it; Harry is absolutely disturbed.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Ryan, any thoughts from you?

Ryan: The only thing I was thinking is it’s almost like reading a snippet of a book out of context. You don’t really… I mean, I know we see leading up to it and everything, but like I said, you don’t really see their relationship, so you really don’t see why he would jump on him like that so easily.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, there’s something to be said for the fact that people can grow up and out of who they were when they were teenagers. We mentioned Cursed Child earlier, but I think seeing the relationship that’s developed between Harry and Draco – or even Hermione and Draco – it seems to be a bit more calm than… again, if we’re taking that to be canon. But I think there’s other examples here, too, and I think it’s meant to represent the fact that we can draw comparisons, and we did it last episode between James and Draco and how they treat people, but I think ultimately they can grow up to be completely different individuals. So maybe we’re just seeing a really bad moment for James, as was already said.

Eric: But who should come to Harry’s existential self-torture rescue than the perfect, most beautiful character ever written… Laura, I’m sure you’ll agree…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: … than Ginny Weasley! The perfect partner for Harry. She walks up to him, she knows he’s been down lately, she asks him about it. He actually is able to talk; he says, “I’m really just trying to find… trying to figure out a way to talk to Sirius,” and she comes up with, “Well…” Just even the mindset that she has to him, and she says – this is the famous line from Fred and George – “If you live with Fred and George, you start to think anything is possible.” And it’s this attitude and Ginny’s initiative here, first in talking to Harry, figuring out what the problem is, and later talking to Fred and George, that sets this entire chapter’s events in motion.

Laura: Yeah. Something I thought was interesting here, and that seemed like a bit of a small hint of what was to come for these two, was Harry was like, “He didn’t know if it was the chocolate or the advice, but he just felt hopeful looking at her.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: It was a good point.

Micah: It’s that Easter egg. That Cadbury bunny just does wonders.

Laura: It’s a literal literary Easter egg moment.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I thought about that. Yeah, and the fact that… we’ve talked a lot about in our discussion of Order of the Phoenix and comparing it to Prisoner of Azkaban, particularly with the lessons that Snape gives to Harry and that Lupin gives to Harry, Lupin would always give Harry chocolate to feel better. And it’s interesting here that Ginny, his future wife, gives him chocolate to ultimately feel better about what’s going on. But I wanted to take it a step further, and Harry kind of almost gets emotional when he gets this from Mrs. Weasley, and I think it’s just a reminder of the fact that despite how isolated Harry feels, he’s not really alone. Yes, Dumbledore has left, others are gone, but he has more resources available to him, I think, than he realizes.

Eric: I agree with that 100%.

Ryan: Yeah. I always wondered why he didn’t go to Hagrid about these situations, because he was there when Sirius and James were at school.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Ryan: So he might have been given a little bit of insight.

Laura: Definitely. Yeah, it really seems like Harry has a bad habit of thinking that the support he needs is the variety that Dumbledore can give him, which is information, but he doesn’t lean on any of his emotional support, and he has a ton of it available.

Eric: That’s a really good point.

Ryan: Right.

Micah: Yeah, Ryan mentioned he’s got Hagrid. He’s got McGonagall, who definitely shows her allegiance to him in this chapter.

Eric: Hell yeah, she does.

[Ryan laughs]

Micah: There are others. I mean, there are definitely people he can go to to try and work through things, and he just is so stuck on talking with Sirius. And he basically starts to put this plan together that he’s going to sneak into Umbridge’s office; he’s going to use the Floo Network to go and travel to Grimmauld Place, and I just got frustrated reading this. I know a lot of us as readers get frustrated reading this, because Sirius presents Harry, before he goes back to Hogwarts after the holiday break, with a direct line of communication, and Harry never even bothers to open it up to take a look at it. It’s referenced; I think actually in the text, it says Harry would never open it to use it, or he knew that he would never risk the opportunity of opening that up, because it could be a direct line to Sirius. But Sirius directly tells him, “It’s a way of letting me know if Snape is giving you a hard time,” and it’s just so sad, because we know what happens at the end of this book. If he would have only just opened up the package and utilized it, instead of remembering about a freaking knife that he got from…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: He remembers Sirius gives him a knife that’ll open any door, but he doesn’t remember the fact that Sirius gave him a tool that would allow them to connect with each other if they needed to.

Eric: Yeah. In this chapter, he mentions the knife that Sirius got him two Christmases ago. Well, what about this Christmas, Harry? Think about the package. Just let your brain roll over it. Go figure it out, open it up, because none of this would be necessary. And I think there’s two failings here: I’ve mentioned this before on the show how J.K. Rowling is really playing with Sirius before he dies. She makes it as miserable as possible. But I think in addition to it being extra painful that Harry is thinking about his Christmas gift and overlooks the mirror that he doesn’t yet know about, Sirius, also, when he sees Harry in the fireplace, doesn’t immediately say, “Why didn’t you use my gift? That would have been so much… you’re putting yourself at risk by being in Umbridge’s fireplace. Why won’t you just use the gift I got you and it’ll spark something?” And I think that’s something Sirius would naturally do, because he wants to increase Harry’s visits with him, and he wants to decrease the opportunities that Harry has of getting caught – especially given their last run in the fire – that I think realistically, Sirius as a character would absolutely bring up the mirror to Harry’s face. So I think it’s… I mean, J.K. Rowling is willingly making it as painful as possible for Sirius to die.

Laura: Yeah, the only thing I can think of is maybe Sirius didn’t want Remus to know that he gave Harry that, but I don’t think he’d care that much.

Micah: Not at that point.

Eric: It’s actually an elegant solution to get past all the barriers that Umbridge has in place. The mirror is just great.

Ryan: Also – like you’re saying, Micah – it makes no sense that in the book she says that he doesn’t want to use it because he doesn’t want Sirius to come to him, but the same time, why would you think calling him through the fireplace is not going to make him come either?

Eric: Yeah, exactly. This is a chapter… okay, a couple chapters ago that was all fine. Harry had Sirius’s best interests at heart. Again, Harry wants to suffer himself; he doesn’t want to bring anybody else into his suffering. Great. But in this chapter, he’s literally reaching… he needs to reach out to Sirius, and the best way to do that would be alternative means.

Micah: But as mentioned, I mean, there are other members of the Order of the Phoenix that are at Hogwarts and could assist in getting a message to Sirius if the two of them really needed to connect with each other. So this whole plan is just so off the rails, and we’ll get into it a little bit later on. But one thing to touch on before we get to our great Potter debate between McGonagall and Umbridge is Harry has to endure a Potions lesson before going to get his career advice, and it is awkward, to say the least. I mean, the class itself seems fine; it’s actually noted that it’s probably one of the best Potions classes that Harry’s ever had, pre-Professor Slughorn.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And he was really nervous because he didn’t know what to expect. And I think we’ve probably all been in those types of situations before, where we’ve had a falling out with somebody, and then we have to physically be in the same space as them; we’re not sure how the person is going to react. But Snape doesn’t really seem to react at all. And what’s interesting to me is that Harry actually has a really good Potions class; he’s able to do the work. And I wanted, Laura – I know you’re a former teacher – to talk about this a little bit because there’s something to be said for putting a bit of pressure on a student, but I think the pressure that is applied to Harry throughout the course of the series is at a different level, and once that pressure is finally removed, he’s actually not half bad at Potions.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, this is straight from any kind of pedagogical teaching theory. A small amount of anxiety can be a good thing; it can actually drive a student’s internal motivation to perform. But there does reach a point where, when there’s so much anxiety put on a student, that the motivation just, I mean, drops off almost to zero, and I think that that’s what we see for Harry in most of his Potions lessons until this point where Snape is kind of ignoring him throughout the class and he has a little bit of breathing room.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: It’s so funny to me that Harry is uniquely prepared to deal with Snape ignoring him, because that’s the Dursley route.

[Ryan laughs]

Eric: Harry is so put upon; Harry is so abused that when Snape… all that Harry has is anxiety about how Snape is going to handle it, and the second Snape chooses to go the Dursley route, Harry is like, “I’m prepared for this. I can totally handle this.” And he does fine.

Ryan: I thought the same thing.

Laura: That’s true. He’s like, “I’ve been ignored my whole life.”

Eric: Yeah. [laughs] “No big deal.”

[Ryan laughs]

Eric: In the end, it doesn’t improve his grade, unfortunately, due to weird circumstances.

Micah: And what would those be?

Ryan: Does Hermione always clean up after him?

Eric: No, I think that was just one time. The Hermione angle of this chapter is really, really interesting, because she does have his best interests at heart. But the dynamic between Harry, Ron, and Hermione in this chapter, too, because Ron doesn’t want to get involved in this argument, but as soon as Hermione finds out that Harry is up to something, he’s going to try and break into Umbridge’s office, she wants to stop him. And Hermione, bless her, can be a little bit persistent on this fact, and Harry is already upset with her by the time Potions comes around and she vanishes his cauldron. It’s just a real shame.

Laura: Yeah, it is a really interesting throwback to Prisoner of Azkaban, where Harry and Ron are fighting with Hermione throughout much of that book, and Harry receives the Firebolt, and he’s also sneaking into Hogsmeade. And Hermione tells on Harry for getting the Firebolt, and also, when she learns that Harry is sneaking into Hogsmeade, she tells him, “Hey, if you do that one more time, I’m going to tell on you.” And now she’s at a point where she’s really trying to dissuade him from doing something that’s against the rules, but she’s not out-and-out saying, “Hey, I’m going to report you if you do this,” so I think it shows a little bit of growth for her in that department.

Eric: Yeah, she’s no longer a narc.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: All right, well, we were thinking, inspired by a voicemail we’re going to play here in a moment, that it might be good for us to do our own chapter readings. Let’s hear what this listener had to say.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCasters. Katie from Kansas City here. I’m calling in regards to Chapter 29, ‘Career Advice.’ Order of the Phoenix is not my favorite book in the series, but this is my absolute favorite chapter of them all. It’s all to do with the namesake scene. It breaks my heart that we never got to see the two badass women that are Maggie Smith and Imelda Staunton go head to head as they did in this scene. The movie interactions were just so lackluster, and I was devastated by it. I would love to see these two actresses do a recording of just this scene. They could call Stephen Fry to narrate and Dan Radcliffe could phone it in for his couple of lines. It would give me life. Anyway, looking forward to the chapter discussion. Keep up the great work.”

[Voicemail ends]

Eric: Hey, Harry Potter at Home, we’ve got an idea for you.

[Laura and Ryan laugh]

Micah: Yeah, which we started, actually, several years ago over on Patreon, but that’s okay.

Laura: Yeah, we did that before it was cool.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, dear listener, we are not Imelda Staunton, Maggie Smith, or Dan Radcliffe, but we are going to make your wish come true today.

Micah: Or Stephen Fry, for that matter.

Laura: Right.

Micah: But I’ll try my best.

Laura: Yes, so we are going to read a snippet of this great debate in which I will play McGonagall, Eric will play Umbridge, Ryan will play Harry, and Micah will be our narrator. Are we all ready?

Eric: As ready as we’re going to be.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Let’s see how this goes.

Micah: Where are we starting again? 664.

Laura: “Any questions, Potter?”

Micah: Let me find that.

Laura: Yeah, bottom of the page.

Micah: Oh, yes. I got it. Okay.

Laura: So I’ll kick us off. And I’m not doing any accents, because that would just be…

Ryan: Darn.

Laura: Yeah, no, it would just be offensive. I’m not going to do that. “Any questions, Potter?”

Ryan: “Yes,”

Micah: said Harry.

Ryan: “What sort of character and aptitude tests do the Ministry do on you, if you get enough N.E.W.T.s?”

Laura: “Well, you’ll need to demonstrate the ability to react well to pressure and so forth,”

Micah: said Professor McGonagall,

Laura: “perseverance and dedication, because Auror training takes a further three years, not to mention very high skills in practical defense. It will mean a lot more study even after you’ve left school, so unless you’re prepared to —”

Eric: “I think you’ll also find…”

Micah: said Umbridge, her voice very cold now,

Eric: “… that the Ministry looks into the records of those applying to be Aurors. Their criminal records.”

Laura: “— unless you’re prepared to take even more exams after Hogwarts, you should really look at another —”

Eric: “— which means that this boy has as much chance of becoming an Auror as Dumbledore has of ever returning to this school.”

Laura: “A very good chance, then,”

Micah: said…

Eric: “Potter has a…” Oh, sorry. Jesus. [laughs]

Laura: Very into it.

Micah: You’re into it. I love it. I mean, I’m just… yeah, all right, said Professor McGonagall.

Eric: “Potter has a criminal record,”

Micah: said Umbridge loudly.

Laura: “Potter has been cleared of all charges,”

Micah: said Professor McGonagall, even more loudly. Professor Umbridge stood up. She was so short that this did not make a great deal of difference, but her fussy, simpering demeanor had given place to a hard fury that made her broad, flabby face look oddly sinister.

Eric: “Potter has no chance whatsoever of becoming an Auror!”

Micah: Professor McGonagall got to her feet too, and in her case this was a much more impressive move. She towered over Professor Umbridge.

Laura: “Potter,”

Micah: she said in ringing tones,

Laura: “I will assist you to become an Auror if it is the last thing I do! If I have to coach you nightly I will make sure you achieve the required results!”

Eric: “The Minister of Magic will never employ Harry Potter!”

Micah: said Umbridge, her voice rising furiously.

Laura: “There may well be a new Minister of Magic by the time Potter is ready to join!”

Micah: shouted Professor McGonagall.

Eric: “Aha!”

Micah: shrieked Professor Umbridge, pointing a stubby finger at McGonagall.

Eric: “Yes! Yes, yes, yes! Of course! That’s what you want, isn’t it, Minerva McGonagall? You want Cornelius Fudge replaced by Albus Dumbledore! You think you’ll be where I am, don’t you, Senior Undersecretary to the Minister and headmistress to boot!”

Laura: “You are raving,”

Micah: said Professor McGonagall, superbly disdainful.

Laura: “Potter, that concludes our career consultation.”

[Eric laughs]

Ryan: I just want to say, I think that Jim Dale will be very proud, Eric.

Eric: Oh.

Laura: I think so too! I thought your Umbridge was on point.

Micah: Yeah, very good.

Eric: Thanks. It is hard not to do an imitation game. I just listened to the Jim Dale audiobook twice this week, but I tried my best.

Laura: See, in my head, McGonagall sounds like Maggie Smith, and I was like, “I am not about to even attempt that.”

Eric: [laughs] It’s real hard to do the Scottish accent.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, this was quite the scene, and I think one that as a reader, you definitely get emotional – some people, at least, from what I’ve talked to at times – because you have such a strong defense of Harry by McGonagall here. And again, it’s another character that’s exhibiting a very strong loyalty to Harry and his future. And I think for everything that McGonagall does in this moment, Harry in a way betrays it just a few pages later.

Eric: Yeah. [laughs] I mean, she really lays it out on the line. She puts her neck out for Harry, and he’s even spared probably the worst – or, depending on your perspective, the best – lines, because he leaves the classroom, but he now has another reason not to do what he’s going to do.

Micah: Right. Well, he does question himself, too, in the moment; he thinks about the scene, particularly with McGonagall, and would he be, in a way, defying everything that she had just stood for in that moment with Umbridge, by breaking into Umbridge’s office? And I think that’s a valid concern on his part, but yet he still decides to move forward with it. So it is a bit disappointing, it’s a bit reckless, but it’s also a lot like his dad in this moment.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I feel like his dad and Sirius would do the same thing.

Laura: Yeah, it’s funny because he’s not even sure he wants to be like his dad in this moment, and yet…

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And Sirius’s line, “You’re a lot less like James than I thought you were,” reverberates in his head, and it’s like, man, what’s he playing at? But Hermione thought she had a winning argument in this, too; she pointed out that Dumbledore is gone from Hogwarts because he wanted Harry to stay in Hogwarts. If she finds him, Umbridge will expel Harry.

Micah: Right.

Eric: And all of that will be for naught. That was sort of the final… the last words Hermione got to say on it before Harry went to career advice and went to break into the office. It’s just a real darn shame that Harry is too… I don’t know what the word is, to take all that into consideration and actually allow that to sway him.

Laura: So actually, I have a question for the panel. This is somewhat of a connecting the threads moment. I found this excerpt from Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14, when Snape catches Harry coming back from Hogsmeade, and I wanted to see if Snape was kind of right here. He says, “So… Everyone from the Minister of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself. Let the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences.”

Micah: Yep.

Ryan: I wouldn’t say he doesn’t consider consequences; I just think he doesn’t consider them for himself, if that makes any sense. Because in the very first book, you see an 11-year-old going after the Philosopher’s Stone. I mean, he’s trying to do what’s best for everybody, but he doesn’t really think about the rules and all this kind of stuff when he’s doing it.

Eric: It’s a really good point. Yeah, I mean, he doesn’t care if he is expelled. That’s kind of the other angle here, is that he doesn’t seem to internalize the, I guess, collateral damage that it would mean if he were to be expelled.

Laura: Yeah, because then he can no longer be adequately protected, right?

Eric: Right, people are going to really need to step up their… it’s going to be a lot more of a burden on everybody to protect him when he’s not at Hogwarts, and I think that’s the angle that he’s not considering.

Micah: Well, also, if this whole scene didn’t play itself out in “Snape’s Worst Memory,” the prior chapter, then we wouldn’t be here. So Snape is to blame a little bit, too, for Harry going and doing whatever he wants, particularly in this chapter.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, Harry has internal strife, you guys. He needs to fix it. I’ve definitely been there, too, where you need answers, where you’re having a moment of self-doubt, there’s one person you need to talk to that can set things right, and you’re going to seek them out at all costs. I mean, Harry is really trying to quiet some turmoil that he’s feeling on the inside. And I think… to your point earlier, he does have Hagrid; he does have McGonagall. There are people that could touch on… I mean, McGonagall is the person who first he overheard talking about Sirius and James, and she would really have a levelheaded, I think, opinion of specifically James Potter through age 15 to 17, when he kind of shaped up a little bit. She’d be able to, I think, provide at least some awareness or some insight into what James was really like to teach because she taught him.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Especially after this moment where McGonagall is standing up for him in a way that I don’t think we’ve seen anybody else in his life stand up for Harry up until this point. And I do think, though, that this decision that Harry makes where he’s weighing it in his mind, he’s like, “Yep, I’m going for it; I’m going into Umbridge’s office,” it does kind of fulfill what Laura was just saying, that Snape said in Prisoner of Azkaban, that he does have a certain disregard for the rules, right? And he lets that outweigh probably other options that he could be taking in this moment that could probably get him the same solution that he’s looking for, and that’s to connect with Sirius. I did just want to jump back quickly, because Laura, I think you have a good point – or maybe it’s Eric – in here about Umbridge was in his career council conversation with McGonagall primarily to just intimidate, and I don’t know that she’s sitting in on all of these conversations.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She’s being very selective, I’m sure, about when she joins, but this is just another example of being disruptive. Obviously, she’s not doing it in a classroom now; she’s doing it when we’re talking about something important to Harry’s future and what he wants to do.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, she is particularly interested in Harry’s development path or lack thereof; she wants to obstruct it, really, as best she can. And I think there’s also an element of spycraft going on here. She’s spying on Harry. She is inserting herself into this very private discussion about Harry’s future with his Head of House. She has no place being here, but it is to intimidate, it is to obstruct, and it’s to spy. She’s going to report what Harry says in this meeting, no matter what. If he says he wants to be a dentist, she’s going to tell Cornelius about it.

Micah: Did McGonagall make a mistake, though, when she said that there might be a different Minister by the time Harry is ready to become an Auror? I mean, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, right? A lot of things could happen between when Harry is ready and when… but I think it was probably a misstep on her part, letting her emotions get the best of her.

Eric: It’s funny seeing her not follow her own advice to Harry, because in the whole “Have a biscuit” scene, she’s like, “You’ve got to keep your head down, got to not let it get to you.” But at this point in the school year… I mean, it’s already May. She’s put up with Umbridge for long enough.

Micah: Right.

Eric: And I think that, in addition to the school gradually descending into open rebellion and chaos against Umbridge, so too McGonagall’s patience is just gone at this point.

Micah: I also think this is an important moment for her. Harry has been her student for almost five years now, and they’re talking about his future, about what opportunities lie ahead, and she’s been there for him. She’s also kind of like a… what would you say, a grandmotherly figure to him outside of just the actual Head of his House, right? So I think she’s a bit miffed at the fact that Umbridge is sitting in the back of the room while they’re having this conversation.

Ryan: I was wanting to go back to the excerpt that Laura read. I had never thought about it until just now when she was reading that, but how James always breaks rules – this, that, and the other – doesn’t it say at some point in the books that James and Lily were Head Boy and Girl?

Eric: It does say that at some point.

Ryan: I think it’s really weird that James is such a rule-breaker and he wasn’t a prefect, and then he’s also the Head Boy, so I was just wondering if they’ve ever said what it takes to be Head Boy. I know being prefect puts you on your way to it, but do you actually have to be one, I reckon?

Eric: I mean, Dumbledore definitely plays favorites when it comes to that stuff, [laughs] and I don’t know what he was playing at by making the already most popular boy in school Head Boy. Maybe Head Boy and Head Girl is more of a figurehead type role versus prefect being the enforcer.

Ryan: Well, Percy was Head Boy.

Eric: Percy was Head Boy. But he was also prefect, so there’s not a clear path to it, I don’t think.

Laura: I wonder if perhaps Dumbledore learned his lesson from this, and this is part of why he decided not to make Harry a prefect this year. Because he’s the obvious choice; everybody’s talking about that early on in the book. And maybe Dumbledore was a bit like, “Eh, yeah, why did I give this to James Potter?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: “Let’s spare Harry.”

Ryan: Well, he gave it to Lupin.

Laura: Yeah, Lupin was a prefect, but James later went on to become Head Boy, I guess is… I’m wondering if that informed his choice about choosing prefects this year.

Micah: Yeah, and I think Dumbledore touches on it at the end of this book, right, as to why he didn’t give Harry the prefect badge?

Ryan: Right. I think he said he had enough on his plate or something like that.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, nice of you, Dumbledore, given that you ignore him for most of the year anyway.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But all right, let’s talk about Harry’s plan to contact Sirius and him actually getting inside Umbridge’s office. We touched on this a little bit. It’s a bit of a show-up to Dumbledore, who really did everything to make sure that Harry stayed at Hogwarts by leaving himself. He shows up McGonagall, given everything that she just did for him in the career advice session with Umbridge. He has no backup plan or security in place, which I think is really just hasty decision-making on his part. He doesn’t even employ the help of Ron or Hermione or anybody in this plan; there’s nobody standing outside of the office to make sure that Filch or Umbridge or anybody comes in. And on top of it, he doesn’t lock the door!

[Eric and Ryan laugh]

Micah: Or doesn’t close it. Filch comes in and he’s like, “Oh, she left it open.” Harry, what are you doing?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, this was not well thought through.

Ryan: Future Auror right there.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Oh, boy. But unlike the movie – at least in this moment – he doesn’t get caught, so it’s a difference from the films.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, this plan could have been better, but it works for the moment. It’s actually really captivating, too, because Harry knows what must be done, and he does the special Floo travel, where it’s just his head. He knows that he doesn’t actually want to completely travel. He’s only seen this done before. So he does the sort of half-in, half-out kind of method, and it really allows him to, I think, still hear what’s going on in the background, in a way.

Ryan: Right, because he says, “Is that on your end or my end?”

Eric: Yeah, it sounds like they’re talking about a telephone call, doesn’t it? It’s pretty clever. But I guess we… we’ve referred to this in the past as wizard FaceTime.

[Laura and Micah laughs]

Eric: It is face time.

Micah: I can see that. Literally, it’s face time.

Eric: Literally face time.

Micah: But what’s to make Harry think that even though Umbridge says her Floo Network is not being watched, that it isn’t, and the fact that they can run traces probably on who’s traveled where? And does Harry not consider that this could risk the exposure of Number 12 Grimmauld Place?

Ryan: But he’s 15.

[Micah laughs]

Ryan: I mean, I know he says it, like, “I’m 15!” But I don’t think he thinks about all that stuff.

Eric: I do wonder if there isn’t a barrier with the Fidelius Charm that this breaks, to your point, Micah. The Floo Network, in order for this to work, it does have to be connected to a physical public hub, so they should be able to trace this, I guess, is the short answer to this, where Harry goes because of the methods that it takes him to get there. This should probably expose Grimmauld Place.

Ryan: Well, Sirius, at this point, has already called Hogwarts too, though, right?

Laura and Micah: Yep.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Ryan: Is that how Umbridge knows?

Micah: And Umbridge calls him on it.

Ryan: Yeah, because she knows it was Sirius.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really interesting.

Laura: Yeah, she almost caught him before. Yeah, this is what bothers me about this whole plan: It’s very high risk, low reward.

Micah: Yes!

Laura: Because what does he really get out of this?

Micah: That’s my question.

Eric: But Laura, Harry is in emotional turmoil. Harry is in emotional… he’s distraught.

Laura: I get it. But at the same time, you know you’re risking expulsion, revealing 12 Grimmauld Place, Sirius… and what does he get for that risk?

Eric: Well, he spent his whole life thinking that his dad was a nice guy, and if that isn’t true, Laura, then Harry doesn’t know who he is. “Who am I, Hedwig?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: He’s asking himself this this whole chapter. And you could go into the Les Mis John Valjean thing, but I’ll skip it. But I think… I agree with you guys 100%; it’s very low reward. But the parts of this conversation that occur, I think, solidify this chapter as one of the best ever. We actually get a lot of emails about this; people really like this chapter, and even to our caller, who wrote in that this was their favorite chapter of pretty much the whole series, even if this book isn’t their favorite, I can see why.

Micah: But is it for this moment? I think it’s mostly due to the career advice.

Eric: I would agree with that, but for me, it is this moment, and I have some just key takeaways that I’d like to bring up about the relationships, because it’s great to see. So when Harry arrives, he sees Lupin, and Lupin goes and gets Sirius. Sirius is upstairs looking for Kreacher; wonder where that guy got off to. But it’s such an unexpected surprise. Harry risks all of this to talk to Sirius, but he ends up getting both of them. He ends up getting both of his father’s friends, the only ones who can come to the phone right now. And it’s kind of even better, I think, having Sirius and Remus there to weigh in on this. Don’t you guys agree? It’s an extra bonus to have Lupin there too.

Micah: Yeah, but I’m actually surprised, because Sirius is very candid in this conversation, and even apologetic at points. If you’re saying the fact that you have both of them there almost to counterbalance each other, that’s not actually what ends up happening, which is what I would have expected to happen, right? Sirius would have had this grand memory and really embellish James, but that’s not really what happens.

Eric: No, I just think they’re… I don’t expect them to be there to counterbalance, but I think they both add to… they only help answer Harry’s question by them both being able to comfort him. I think it’s a one-two punch; they’re really able to, I think, get a little bit across to him that he shouldn’t put as much weight on Snape’s worst memory. So here’s the first thing that I wrote down, is that Lupin’s first reply after he tells them everything is that “I wouldn’t put too much in store by what you saw. James was 15.” So Lupin is actually trying to downplay it at first, but Harry just replies, “I’m 15!” And that changes the world; this is the insight into Harry’s character. He’s thinking that he’s the same age as his dad when his dad was doing all this bad behavior, so Lupin can’t go this route, because Harry himself is so much better adjusted than what James was at that age. So you can’t say, “Oh, James was young,” because this is the age Harry is now.

Ryan: Well, Harry had to do a lot more growing up, though, than James did, really quickly.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: And they just have very different temperaments. We talked about this last week; Harry may look like his father, but in terms of his temperament, he’s much more like Lily.

Micah: Totally, yeah. And just to go back to Snape’s worst memory, I think we may have mentioned this on the last episode, but to your point, Laura, in that moment, Harry would have been Lily. He wouldn’t have been James, right?

Laura: Right.

Micah: He would have been the one stepping in to help Snape, not the one who is hanging him up by his underwear. So I think it’s a wakeup call for Harry, but at the same time, I do agree with what Sirius and Remus are saying, in that you can’t take one snapshot to define a person. But we do actually get more information that this was an ongoing feud; this wasn’t something that just stopped with Snape’s worst memory.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And we know from previous books there was, what, Sirius’s prank on Snape, that there was a… I want to say series-long, but school years-long hatred between the two of them. And Sirius actually refers to Snape at some point as an oddball, but I think he does so kind of sympathetically. To your point, Micah, Sirius is a little apologetic here in particular. Harry feels a little bit weird saying to Sirius that, “Well, James only attacked Snape because you said you were bored,” but Sirius’s immediate reply is, “I’m not proud of it.” And I think that… I don’t want to overlook the possible growth that is expressed in that line of Sirius saying he’s not proud of it, because even though Snape has just been horrible to Sirius even over Christmas break, Sirius, it seems, is reflecting at least a little bit on the bullying and believing Harry that it’s wrong.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I think it’s something he knows, he’s aware of deep down, even if he doesn’t want to admit it to himself. And he still loses his temper with Snape and calls him Snivellus a couple of chapters before this.

Micah: But in defense of Sirius, he’s in his own home; he’s being put on his heels. And I don’t think Sirius has fully matured, given everything that’s happened to him, all the trauma, the fact that he’s been imprisoned from a very young age…

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: … and really been a prisoner since his late teenage years. So I can see both sides here. But I think what’s ultimately going on is J.K. Rowling is painting this picture for us that, “Look, there’s these good and bad elements inside of all of us,” and I don’t know that she’s necessarily looking to prove Snape to be truthful over the course of the last several years that Harry has been at school and everything that he’s told him about his father, but there’s definitely snippets that are true, and it’s tough for Harry to digest because he hasn’t had much other context about his dad. Nobody’s told him stories, right? Sirius hasn’t gone into detail. Remus hasn’t gone into detail. Dumbledore, McGonagall, others haven’t really said much, outside of the fact that they were nice people. But this contradicts anything that he’s really been given prior to.

Eric: You’re right. I mean, even Sirius has only really approached Harry with these idealized traits of James’s, “Oh, he loved to break the rules,” or “Oh, he was so bold or brave.” And this happening, this circumstance, really demystifies or forces Harry to cut through all that crap with Sirius and Remus, who knew him best, who knew James best. And I think that what I just love about this in general – and why this is probably one of my all-time favorite chapters, too – is because you just get these moments where Remus and Sirius are affectionately reminiscing. When Harry mentions James messing up his hair, and Remus is like, “Oh, and did he have the Snitch?” They’re really remembering the memory of their best friend, even in an admittedly difficult time, a difficult place, but the affection, the love that they had for Harry’s father, that they’re now able to discuss levelheadedly with his son, with Harry… this just brings the tears all the time. It’s a beautiful, touching moment, and it’s the only time we really get anything like this from Harry’s two would-be father figures.

Micah: Well, to Laura’s point, though, is the juice worth the squeeze here for Harry? Is he getting anything valuable out of this moment, outside of maybe validation that he was looking for? And I don’t know; is that even enough at this point? I’m trying to figure out what is Harry ultimately trying to get out of this moment, this risky moment that compromises a lot for the future?

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s fair to say he’s not entirely satisfied by Remus and Sirius saying, “Eh, he grew out of it, Harry,” but I think they really do try and underline that. I think Sirius even says, “Look, Harry, we were all arrogant berks. We were all that way, and just trust us; he softened a bit when your mother was into him, and everything was fine. They were wonderful people.” Sirius can only vouch for his own feelings towards James, and he says, “He was the best man I ever knew.” You’ve just kind of got to take them at their word, I think. But Harry, in the end, isn’t 100% satisfied. He’s again interrupted by the fact that Filch is going to come.

Laura: Right.

Micah: There was one moment of connecting the threads here, though, Laura, with Prisoner of Azkaban.

Laura: Oh, yeah. So what I think is so interesting about this chapter is Harry is really grappling with the fact that his identity has been so tied up so long in the idea that he was his father’s son. I mean, they look alike, his Patronus is a stag, his Quidditch talents… all of these things get thrown into doubt in this chapter because of what he witnesses in Snape’s worst memory. And I just thought this was an interesting throwback to Prisoner of Azkaban, when Harry yells at Snape, “Stop talking about my dad; he was a great man,” and Snape says, “I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter. Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you.” And it’s sort of like… I would have to imagine that Harry is remembering all the things that Snape has tried to tell him over the years about his perceptions of Harry’s father, and wondering, “Oh my God, was he right the whole time?” And it just feeds into Eric’s point of Harry spending this chapter thinking, “Who am I?”

Micah: Totally.

Eric and Ryan: Yeah.

Eric: For sure. This is kind of a side point, but I really wonder whether or not Lupin and Sirius know that Snape was the one who betrayed the prophecy, who overheard it and betrayed them, because I think that would drastically change their opinion of Snape. I think it would really push them over the edge if they knew. I don’t think they know.

Ryan: No, I don’t… I think Dumbledore is probably the only person who does, him and Trelawney.

Eric: That just… well, and Harry eventually.

Micah: And Aberforth, presumably, right?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Ryan: That’s true.

Micah: And the goat.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, Aberforth definitely told the goat.

Micah: A few goats. All the goats he keeps in the back, yeah. But one thing I just want to touch on before we wrap up this conversation, because it is important: Both Sirius and Remus react in a very shocked way that Snape has stopped teaching Harry Occlumency, and we get a real feel for the fact that this is something that needs to continue. And Sirius is even willing to leave Grimmauld Place and come up to Hogwarts and talk to Snape. What are our feelings here? I think we all know that these lessons are not going to resume.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a shame because they all but tell Harry that Voldemort is going to try and manipulate that connection. You really… Harry is not listening to the threat, but I think also they’re just saying, “Oh, there’s a threat,” versus “You’re going to wake up one day and not know how to distinguish fact from fiction, and you’re not going to be able to distinguish reality from the reality that Voldemort is creating for you.” They could say something, I think, a little bit more direct about what danger Harry is in by not pursuing his lessons.

Ryan: Right. I think the only person who realizes it is Hermione, and that’s because she’s able to read between the lines with these things.

Micah: This is another “I wonder” moment, but what if he would have gone to McGonagall and told her specifically about the Occlumency? Because presumably she’s aware of all of this, and she could contact Dumbledore. And I just think that Harry doesn’t necessarily go the right route here with contacting folks that could potentially help him out, because there’s no… Sirius and Remus are not coming up to Hogwarts, or at least Sirius isn’t, so I just think that, again, the risk is not worth the reward here, because I’m not sure what the reward is outside of poor planning and almost getting caught by Filch. And that’s really all I’ve got to say about that. We can wrap up the chapter, I think, talking about the Weasley twins, because they’re instrumental in Harry’s ability to pull this off in the first place.

Eric: Yeah, they are.

Micah: And they show another level of exceptional magic with their swamp, and they have a really great exit. And we can maybe contrast it a bit with the films; I thought the films did a good job of it. They changed it up a bit where all the fireworks are really what are used for their escape while all the students are taking OWLs, but I do like the fact that this was a precursor – at least, the fireworks were a precursor – to the swamp, and yeah, I think a really proper sendoff from Hogwarts for the Weasley twins.

Ryan: I just want to point out earlier on in the series Ron is talking about his older brothers and comparing to him, and when he lists the twins, “They act up a lot and break rules, but they make really good grades.” And then we find out that they got terrible OWLs, but they do this kind of stuff and they’re extremely talented. They can do all these different charms and whatnot, and even Hermione comments on how good it is. So they’re extremely talented wizards; they just put it towards jokes.

Eric: Yeah, there’s just some people who – maybe, Laura, you can touch on this – some people who are really, really brilliant; they just don’t test well.

Laura: Yeah, plenty of people. I don’t particularly test well; that was always… standardized testing was never my forte. But you hear the analogy about like, if you were to test a fish by its ability to climb a tree, you would think the fish was stupid, right?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: So it’s just kind of about how are you facilitating an education so that everyone from a variety of learning styles and perspectives can benefit from it? And that’s always the question in education. If you know the answer, you’re probably going to be rich. [laughs]

Micah: Right. And I think that there’s just something about their abilities and how they transfer just their thoughts into the actual magic, and they’re passionate about it at the end of the day, and I think that’s what drives it, right? The inner passion for funny things and jokes and that sort of thing, and they’re just really, really good at it. I know Andrew had a note here about… he wonders how much control the Ministry has over Diagon Alley. Could Umbridge direct Fudge to shut down their shop, given what they do at the end of this chapter? I don’t know that they could go that far. I mean, I don’t know what level of control the Ministry has over Diagon Alley, but it just seems like… I’m sure there are people who don’t totally agree with the Ministry; it doesn’t mean that you’re going to go and shut down their store. I think they want to show their hand at Hogwarts more than anywhere else. If they start getting into business and other things like that, I think people are going to start to raise their eyebrows a little bit more.

Eric: I do agree with Andrew’s point. I think it is quite risky, though, that they keep… they’re blatantly advertising their wares in front of Umbridge, and if Umbridge is anything, she is vengeful, right? And so I think it is a little dangerous that they’re moving in so close to the Ministry, where… I mean, I think we see this later with Diagon Alley being a shell of its former self once the government is falling. But I think there sort of is a connection there, where there has to be something they can do. I mean, the Ministry, the major form of government, probably has some kind of say over all the land permits and business licenses. I think that there is something there to she could shut them down if she was focused on that.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know; she would probably come up with some cock and bull story, but I just feel like shutting down two entrepreneurs who are opening up a business in Diagon Alley, which is really just to make people laugh… even though I know she probably never laughs very much in her own life.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But you know what I mean? It just seems very… that could be a story in and of itself, right? They’ve already gotten slammed once in The Quibbler; maybe this would be another story easily taken to a similar publication if they did shut down Fred and George before they even got started. It also seems like a waste of her time. Right now she’s concerned with Harry. She doesn’t care much for the Weasley twins.

Laura: All right, any additional thoughts there before we wrap the chapter?

Eric: I guess my parting thought is – Micah, you mentioned this – but Harry really has a resource in McGonagall, and she has asserted herself in this chapter. McGonagall has come out as being the foremost number one supporter of Harry Potter against great odds, and I think I would like to have seen this pay off a little bit more in terms of Harry’s relationship with McGonagall, whether, as Micah was suggesting, he confides in her some of these things he’s feeling and relies on her in the future maybe emotionally just a little bit more. But I don’t seem to recall off the top of my head any time where this really gets, I think, the payoff that it deserves in terms of Harry’s relationship with McGonagall. He’s even rude to her in Cursed Child so many years later…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: … which I think is way uncalled for given this moment.

Laura: All right. Well, thank you, Micah. I thought that was a great discussion.

Micah: No, thank you, everyone, for your contributions. I thought it was a good discussion.

Laura: It’s time for the Umbridge Suck count. We are currently sitting at 80 as of last week’s episode.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Got a few more to add. So first, for interrupting McGonagall multiple times.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: I mean, why do you need to fake a cough to do it? Just say what you want to say. Then, telling a student he can’t fulfill his dreams.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: What the hell?

Eric: Big no-no.

Laura: And then implying Harry’s criminal charges will not or have not been forgotten, because she still wants to lock him up.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: And finally, giving Filch the sign-off to whip students.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: Whip!

Micah: Yep. We let that one slip through, but yeah, when he breaks… well, I guess he doesn’t have to break in. When he enters Umbridge’s office because Harry has left it wide open, he’s muttering about now having the ability to be able to whip students, so… that’s so nice.


MVP of the Week


Laura: All right, it’s now time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Eric: I’m going to give it to Ginny, of course. Full stop. She orchestrates a plan that helps Harry to calm down finally. She’s MVP in my heart and your hearts forever.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I’m going to give it to Peeves, who makes an appearance at the end of this chapter and supposedly is going to continue on the debauchery that the Weasley twins have enacted in their five years of… or I should say, what, seven years at Hogwarts? Sorry. Or six years. Whatever it is; I don’t know how many years they’re there.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: 12 years between the two of them.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to the Weasley twins for the second week in a row. I just think that they bring a lot of much-needed chaos to Hogwarts. Good chaos.

Ryan: My MVP is Minerva mother-[censored]-ing McGonagall for putting Umbridge in her place.

Micah: Nice.

Laura: Absolutely.


Rename the Chapter


Laura: All right, and it’s time to rename the chapter.

Eric: I nicknamed mine based on a quote from my MVP of the Week: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 29, “Enough Nerve.”

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 29, “We’re Taking our Talents to Diagon Alley.”

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 29, “Umbridge Undermined.”

Eric: Ooh.

Ryan: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 29, “Weasleys Victorious,” because they finally got away from Umbridge, and she can’t do anything about it.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Nice. All right, if you have feedback about today’s discussion or a question about Chapter 30, which will be our next Chapter by Chapter discussion, please reach out to us. You can reach us at MuggleCast@gmail.com.


Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul


Micah: We do have one Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast soul here. It comes from Jannick; hopefully I’m pronouncing that name right. They say,

“Hey, you’re still there! I used to listen to your podcast years ago. I was living in the UK at the time and loved listening to you guys while actually living in the Harry Potter world. I’ve been back in Canada for 9 years. Since we’re cooped up in our homes, I just had myself a Harry Potter movie festival and felt something was missing. I looked up your podcast and there you were! I thought perhaps you would have gone your separate ways since many years have passed, so CONGRATULATIONS for all your years of podcasting and sticking together. Wow! Best wishes for the future and thank you for keeping the magic alive.”

Eric: We’re still here!

Laura: Aww, this is heartwarming.

Eric: It is. That should be the new tagline of our show: “We’re still here.”

[Laura and Ryan laugh]

Micah: Glad we can be of service during quarantine.

Eric: Absolutely.


Quizzitch


Laura: All right, well, it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question was what punishment does Umbridge instruct Filch to apply to the Weasley twins for their swamp? We touched on this in our discussion. The answer is approval for whipping. She’s going to whip them! She’s going to publicly whip them, from the events of this chapter. Very, very concerning. But correct answers were submitted by SupSarahhh, Young Susie Blood, Count Ravioli, Caleb McReynolds, Rachel, Sarah a.k.a. Weensie, LessThanStace, and Bort Voldemort over on Twitter.

Micah: All right.

Eric: And this week’s question: Who scores the first goal against Gryffindor in the Ravenclaw versus Gryffindor match? Submit your answers to us over on Twitter using hashtag Quizzitch. And of course, that question has to do with the next chapter, “Grawp.”

Laura: Awesome. Thank you, Eric. All right, you can follow us on social media to be notified of future live events, including new Quizzitch Live matches. We are MuggleCast on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. You can also join our community of listeners today over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By doing so, you’ll be helping the podcast to grow, and to thank you, you’ll receive some magical benefits in return, including a personalized “Thank you” message from one of the four hosts, our twice monthly bonus MuggleCast installments, the ability to listen as we record live, and so much more. Don’t forget to contact us through MuggleCast@gmail.com, our contact form through MuggleCast.com, or the MuggleCast voicemail line, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 920-368-4453.

Eric: Laura, you did a great job hosting this episode in Andrew’s absence.

Micah: Yeah. [laughs]

Laura: Oh, well, thank you so much. He, like I said, makes it look a lot easier than it is.

Eric: He really does.

Micah: Yes, he does.

Laura: It’s a lot of moving parts. And Ryan, you were so great. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Ryan: Thank you all for having me.

Laura: It was a delight. Now, just so everyone knows, we will be off next week for Memorial Day, but we will be back the first week of June to cover Chapter 30, “Grawp.”

Eric: Getting close to the end here, you guys.

Laura: I know.

Micah: Yeah, it’s wild.

Laura: Tension is mounting.

Micah: What’s going to happen?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: We don’t know.

Micah: We don’t know?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No spoilers.

Micah: We’re a spoiler-free pod… I remember back in the day – not to go off on a tangent here – remember when we used to do the spoiler alert little intro to the show and in the show notes?

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Oh, the one where Andrew was like, “If you haven’t read Half-Blood Prince, stop listening.”

Micah: Yeah, “Stop listening right now.”

Eric: Oh, man.

Laura: [laughs] All right. Well, everyone, thanks for tuning in this week. I’m Laura.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Ryan: And I’m Ryan.

Laura: See you next time, guys. Buh-bye.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #465

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #465, How I Met Your Mother (OOTP 28, Snape’s Worst Memory)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we have some Muggle Mail, we have a great voicemail, and we’re going to dive into… ooh, dive in, see what I did there?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … Chapter 28 of Order of the Phoenix, “Snape’s Worst Memory.” I’m really looking forward to discussing this chapter, mainly, what the heck was Harry thinking by diving into Snape’s memory?

Laura: So rude.

Eric and Micah: Rude.

Andrew: Exactly! We’ll discuss that a little later, including a revelation I had earlier this morning about that, which makes it even more ridiculous.


News


Andrew: But first, there’s some really exciting news this week. WizardingWorld.com is hosting a video reading of the first Harry Potter book, and the first chapter is read by none other than Dan Radcliffe! What a surprise!

Micah: Welcome back, Dan.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Truly. I was thinking about this; after Deathly Hallows – Part 2, he tried to keep his distance from Harry Potter. He just wanted to separate himself. He didn’t want to be known as “That Harry Potter kid,” and so he went off and he starred in Equus; he was naked on stage. He did this movie where farts kill people, or something like that.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He was desperate to separate himself.

Eric: No, get it right, Andrew. Farts propel you across the water.

Andrew: Oh, excuse me.

Micah: Wait, what is this?

Eric: You travel… it’s Swiss Army Man, yeah, with Paul Dano, and it’s one of the best movies I’ve seen. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, apparently it is actually good.

Laura: And I mean, he’s literally just a corpse.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Right, a corpse that farts or something like that.

Eric: He’s done amazing things since departing Harry.

Andrew: [laughs] For sure.

Micah: Also, The Woman in Black. That was scary as hell.

Andrew: Right. Oh, tons of projects. He’s had a great post-Potter career, but now he’s returned for a brief moment; WizardingWorld.com asked him to read a chapter, and I thought it was great that they asked him to read Chapter 1. Let’s listen to a little sample of Dan Radcliffe reading Sorcerer’s Stone.

[Audio clip plays]

Dan Radcliffe: “‘Good luck, Harry,’ he murmured. He turned on his heel and with a swish of his cloak, he was gone. A breeze ruffled the neat hedges of Privet Drive, which lay silent and tidy under the inky sky, the very last place you would expect astonishing things to happen. Harry Potter rolled over inside his blankets without waking up. One small hand closed on the letter beside him and he slept on, not knowing he was special, not knowing he was famous, not knowing he would be woken in a few hours’ time by Mrs. Dursley’s scream as she opened the front door to put out the milk bottles, nor that he would spend the next few weeks being prodded and pinched by his cousin Dudley… He couldn’t know that at this very moment, people meeting in secret all over the country were holding up their glasses and saying in hushed voices: ‘To Harry Potter — the boy who lived!'”

[Audio clip ends]

Eric: “To Harry Potter – the boy who lived!”

Andrew: Wow, little cameo from Eric there. I missed that the first time. [laughs]

Eric: Sorry, I had to… you can’t not do that; everybody’s doing that at home, guaranteed.

Andrew: True, true. So yeah, this was really nice to see. Everybody was really, really excited by this news. They’re going to have somebody different read each chapter. Other people who are in the pipeline include Stephen Fry, who narrated the UK audiobook; David Beckham, who isn’t involved in Harry Potter, really, but he’s well known, and I guess a big Harry Potter fan; and Noma Dumezweni, who was Hermione in the first US and UK productions of the Cursed Child. She actually read Chapter 2, which was released on Friday.

Micah: I was expecting a little bit of commentary from Dan as he was reading. Every once in a while I thought maybe he was going to throw something in there, but it was still really cool to see this, and you could tell he was into it.

Andrew: Something else that was cool was that WizardingWorld.com added fan art throughout the video, which was really cool as well. And this fan art was related to the scene that Harry… [laughs] that Dan was narrating at any given moment, so that was cool to see. I wonder who else is going to be reading a chapter. Will J.K. Rowling read a chapter?

Laura: I hope so.

Eric: They have 17 chapters in Book 1 or… yeah, I have no idea. I’m excited.

Micah: They should give a fan or two the opportunity to read a chapter. I think that would be cool.

Andrew: You want to read one, Micah?

Micah: I would read one. I’m just saying. I’m not saying for me; I’m saying it would be cool to see the average fan get the opportunity to read one of these chapters. It would be nice.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I guess.

Micah: Well, this follows in the footsteps of The Tales of Beedle the Bard being read by notable cast members from the Harry Potter series.

Andrew: True.

Eric: Yeah, I was just thinking that.

Micah: And J.K. Rowling does really the… was it the annotations of Dumbledore? Or was that Jude Law?

Andrew: But not in the audiobook. No, that was Jude Law.

Micah: Doesn’t she read something in there? Or am I completely misremembering this?

Eric: She doesn’t… Madame Pince actress reads the J.K. Rowling comments, and then Jude Law reads the Dumbledore comments. But yeah, this was the peak Harry Potter inception a little bit. “Here you go, Dan. Read the first chapter of this book that changed your life.”

Andrew: [laughs] Right. So here’s my prediction: J.K. Rowling will read the final chapter. I see she’s been promoting these readings on Twitter, so she’s excited and engaging with these as well. So I bet they asked her to do it. If she can tweet all day like she’s been doing again, she can read a chapter from her own book.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She should read it from memory, though.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh my God.

Andrew: That’d be cool. “All right, all right, what happened at the end of Chapter 16? Oh, yeah. Okay, okay.” What if she completely botches it and basically rewrites the entire chapter on the fly? [laughs]

Eric: I’d love to see her ad-lib it with things that she thought she put in there but didn’t, like Dumbledore saying goodbye to Harry, lying to him… all that stuff.

Micah: Then it would be Cursed Child.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh my God. No, I would also really love to see that, because we’ve been fortunate enough to go to readings with J.K. Rowling in the past, and she really is such an engaging reader doing these. She just really, I think, embodies the tone of the books, obviously; she wrote them. But it really is a great thing to be able to witness, so I hope she does.

Andrew: Yeah. And of course, there’s something very special about seeing the author read their own work, so we’ll see if she does that. Stay tuned. It looks like they’re releasing about two chapters a week so far; maybe they’ll pick up that pace a little bit, but we’ll keep everybody posted on who is reading what. Maybe we’re in for a surprise or two. Also want to let everybody know that the next Quizzitch Live installment will be Sunday, May 17, at 11:00 a.m. Eastern. This one, as Micah teased I believe last week, is going to be called the Goblet of Popcorn.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, we went from… right, Prisoner of Knowledge? We have to go to Goblet of something.

Eric: Well, and Chamber of Fandom before that.

Andrew: Right, so… no, no, the Fandom of Secrets.

Eric: Oh, Fandom of Secrets, sorry. [laughs] “Chamber of Fandom.” Fandom of Secrets, yeah.

Micah: That sounds like a fanfiction.

Andrew: [laughs] No, fandom is not a chamber.

Eric: It’s a cool naming scheme we’ve got going on. I hope we keep it up.

Micah: What was our first one? Just Quizzitch Live?

Andrew: Yes, yeah. We’ll have to retroactively name it like they did with Star Wars.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: There you go. But yeah, we’re really looking forward to this one. Eric and I are hard at work on the questions. They are movie-related, hence the name Goblet of Popcorn.

Andrew: Ooh.

Micah: And we’re really excited.

Andrew: Yeah, and I will just say, after this one we’re probably going to space them out further apart from each other, so please do attend this one because it may be a while before the next one. Also, now is the time to support the show and help it grow, because we’ve just announced the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt. It features a new crest to celebrate our birthday, and is available in two cuts and colors. Pledge by June 30 and remain a patron for at least three months to receive one for yourself. And of course, you will also receive instant access to loads of other benefits, including bonus MuggleCast, which are about 20 to 30 minutes in length, and we release two a month. You also get access to our recording studio, and you can also access our own chapter readings, which we did a couple years ago. We stopped after Prisoner of Azkaban, but Micah, Eric, and I were taking turns reading each chapter and posting it on our Patreon. It was a lot of fun, but also a lot of work, so that’s why we stopped, and we know how much effort that the stars are putting into their own reading of Book 1.

Eric: Indeed.

Micah: Absolutely. And speaking of one who may appear in the future, I think it’s worth mentioning Rupert Grint. I believe he had a baby girl either today or in the last couple of days – I know we mentioned this story earlier on in a prior episode – so congratulations to him and his… girlfriend?

Andrew: Long-time girlfriend. Maybe Rupert will go on camera and read a chapter to his newborn daughter.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: That would be super touching. Oh my God, everybody would die.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: That would just be the cutest thing. So pledge today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you, everybody, for your support so much; we really appreciate it, and we hope you enjoy all the benefits that are available to you on our Patreon. Also, we hosted a debate during last week’s Chapter by Chapter. We were…

Micah: Oh, it wasn’t really debate, was it, Andrew?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: No, it was a slaughter. It was a slaughter, you guys.

Andrew: We creamed ’em. The debate was over if it was okay for Kingsley to modify Marietta’s memory, and Micah and I won with 60% of the vote on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. So sorry, Laura and Eric. What happened?

Laura: Well, I think you had the easier argument.

Andrew: Wow. Okay, sure.

Laura: I mean, you know what? I respect the process.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: You don’t have to respect the outcome, but I respect the process.

Eric: Yeah, I think people think if Dumbledore does it, that means it’s okay.

Andrew: Yeah, okay.

Micah: Well, Andrew, we’ll have to go and delete all those bots we used to vote.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, we don’t want them to catch us.

Eric: Otherwise they’ll gain sentience and take over.

Micah: But it is interesting, though, that we have back to back chapters that deal with people’s memories.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure, and we’ll talk about that in a few minutes. But first, this week’s episode of MuggleCast is sponsored by a lifesaver during quarantine, BeachBody on Demand.

[Ad break]


Listener Feedback


Andrew: Now we’ll move over to voicemails, and we got this one that we just adored from Griffin.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast. This is Griffin, calling in for the first time, as one of your younger listeners at 11, and I just wanted to mention something that came to mind when I was listening to Episode 440 about the chapter ‘Ministry of Magic.’ When I was listening to your discussion on the Ministry, it reminded me of when I was recently watching Deathly Hallows – Part 1 and the trio flush themselves down the toilets to the Ministry. Now, I don’t know if J.K. Rowling answered this in an interview, because most of her interviews on this subject were probably made before I paid attention to the news, and also probably before I could read, but I just had a bit of a revelation. So picture this: The Ministry workers are doing their usual in the morning, flushing themselves down the toilet, and some random Muggle walks in. So say this Muggle sees the workers in line and doesn’t give it a second thought, and he just stands in line. When it’s his turn, he walks into the stall, but it was that one day when he decided to eat Taco Bell, right?”

[Everyone laughs]

“So the next thing you know, he completely blows up the bathroom, then flushes the toilet and walks out of the stall. Moments later, a huge crap appears in the Ministry fires. Now, like I said, I don’t know if this was answered in an interview, but what happens then? Does the Ministry have a special force team with antibiotics and wands at the ready for Evanesco-ing away all that toxic sludge? If so, what are they called? Special Ops Evanesco Force? I’m sure I would remember if I heard a cool, calm female voice say, ‘Level eight, Department of Sports and Games, Magical Creatures, and Evanesco Squad, Head Office of Incidents.’ Anyways, thanks for everything you do, and stay safe. Bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Thanks, Griffin. You too. Wow.

Laura: Okay, first of all, Griffin, I think you have a career in standup comedy ahead of you.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: That was hilarious.

Andrew: Also, this week’s episode is sponsored by Taco Bell.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Taco Bell, for when you want to spook the Ministry.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Maybe the wizards have put a charm on the doors so Muggles can’t get through, so that the toilets are used exclusively for moving down into the Ministry of Magic?

Eric: Yeah, I think that makes sense. Or maybe it just wouldn’t work the same if you’re not standing in the toilet, as we see.

Micah: I’m just going to let Griffin’s voicemail just stand by itself; I’m not going to analyze anything…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … because I think in the however many hundreds of years the Ministry has existed, there’s a chance that a Muggle at some point got into those bathrooms and did a number two. So I feel like… Griffin, in such a large part, is a reason why I still do this show. 11 years old, calling in with that well-thought-out of a voicemail. He also… I know he touched on the fact that if J.K. Rowling responded to this, it was probably before he could read. It probably was also before he was born.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And knowing the fact that this show has existed for longer than he has is also… I don’t know how to feel about that, personally.

Andrew: Cool and wild.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. So thank you, Griffin, for sending that in.

Andrew: Now I want Taco Bell.

Eric: [laughs] I had it yesterday on the… or I had it the other day, the day after Cinco de Mayo.

Andrew: I had it on Cinco de Mayo.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Only the best.

Laura: I had it yesterday, actually.

Andrew: [laughs] Taco Bell, do you want to sponsor MuggleCast? I think it’s a natural fit for the show.

Micah: Oh, please do.

Eric: Can I say, I love that the Ministry workers flush themselves down because as government workers, they are civil servants, and it’s like submitting to the public. I just love that whole dynamic of what they do. But great question.

Andrew: Yeah, as a germaphobe, I probably wouldn’t do that. I’m sure the toilets are perfectly clean, but… still.

Eric: You’d just learn to Apparate or Floo or…

Micah: The Floo Powder just burns it all up anyway.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: How’s that? That’s a clean answer.

Andrew: All right, who wants to read this next email?

Micah: I’ll do it.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: The next email comes from SJ, who says,

“Dear MuggleCast, in the last two episodes’ Chapter by Chapter discussions, Hermione has been unfairly blamed for Harry’s disastrous date with Cho. I feel the need to defend her, as this is something I have been working on with my therapist in my own relationship. Hermione is NOT responsible for Harry’s choices, actions, or behaviors! You all kept saying that she should have either not asked Harry to meet with her on Valentine’s Day, or should have explained to him how to communicate their plans to Cho in a way that wouldn’t upset his date, but that is absolutely not her job. It’s very kind of her to have helped explain interpersonal relationship perspectives to him that he was not grasping in the past, or to have suggested ways he might have better handled telling Cho about their meeting after the fact, but she was never under an obligation to do so as HARRY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN EMOTIONAL MATURITY AND HIS OWN ACTIONS. I do think that this is also gendered and that girls and women are disproportionately ‘expected’ to do all this emotional translating or extra effort on behalf of men in their lives, but that is UNHEALTHY and INCORRECT, and Hermione is blameless in this whole situation. She’s trying to arrange a major PR campaign to combat the Ministry and the Daily Prophet’s monopoly of the Voldemort narrative, and you all think she should have considered Harry’s romantic life with more priority and planned around it, when in actuality, she did consider it exactly as much as was appropriate; she asked him to meet with her (and Rita) after his date, as opposed to monopolizing his entire day or asking him to ditch his prior plans. She was very thoughtful in giving him plenty of notice and plenty of options, and it’s not her fault that Harry didn’t handle his own life as well as he could have. If we’re criticizing her, it should be for the way she manipulated Harry into meeting with Rita by not telling him about her plan ahead of time, but not for anything to do with his date with Cho. Thanks for letting me rant, and please apologize to Hermione.”

Andrew: [laughs] Hermione, we’re sorry.

Micah: I need a glass of water after that.

Andrew: No, this was a great point. This was a great observation. Harry screws up again.

Eric: Yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: All right, who wants to read the next email?

Eric: I will. It says,

“Hi, MuggleCast friends! I was listening to the most recent episode (‘Seen and Unforeseen’), and had a thought that may align with the retrospective psychology take of Order of the Phoenix in this reread. I know that when memories are put into the Pensieve, people like Dumbledore can watch memories that include himself as a third-party observer, which helps him see what he wasn’t able to before. But in all of the Occlumency scenes with Snape and Harry, all of Harry’s memories are shown in first person. I don’t believe J.K. Rowling ever clarifies whether someone like Snape who is penetrating Harry’s mind sees in first or third person, but I think since you’re diving directly into someone’s mind, you’d probably see things from their perspective. So what does it say about Snape that Harry saw him in third person? I think it speaks to his feeling of ‘otherness’ and ‘separateness’ that drives his character forward. We know from Half-Blood Prince that apart from Lily, he never had a true friend, and that kind of isolation can impact a person deeply. I think he detaches from his memories in significant ways because he tries to dis-identify with the scared little boy he was when he was a child. Anyway, that’s just what I was thinking. Hope you all are well and staying safe. Love the pod; please do it forever!”

Eric: Kathleen, we’ll try.

Andrew: Could it be because this series is from Harry’s perspective that we are seeing Snape’s memories from a third person perspective? Whereas when we dive into Harry’s memories, we’re seeing them from first person.

Micah: I think so. It’s interesting, though, because we’ll talk a little bit about this when we jump into Snape’s worst memory, and the fact that Harry is able to experience things, see things, hear things that Snape doesn’t really seem to be engaged with; it’s just in kind of that general environment that’s around Snape. So it’s very interesting to me that Harry is able to notice things that his father does or Sirius does that Snape really isn’t paying any attention to, and yet it’s all within Snape’s memory.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: So somehow the memory is able to capture all these different environmental elements that are going on around Snape, even though Snape is not directly interacting with them.

Eric: Right, and I think that’s maybe the magic of the Pensieve. But when Harry gets into Snape’s memories before this chapter and there’s an adult male screaming at a woman, I’m not sure, but I think that is in first person.

Laura: I thought that memory showed a small, skinny boy with dark hair in a corner.

Micah: It did.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: There you go. That’s what this is talking about, then, because that was in third person, whereas it should have been in first because we weren’t in the Pensieve at that time.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Micah: You should have just seen through Snape’s eyes in that moment when he was cowering in the corner, right? Is that what you’re saying?

Eric: So why were we in the third person? Yeah, I think that Kathleen is right, that there is some… in childhood trauma, the fight or flight response is very prevalent, and I think that a solution that children have, that the human mind really develops, is this feeling of being outside of your own body. And I think that what Harry witnessed is Snape being outside his own body sort of, so we’re able to see himself. Very depressing. Very, very, very sad.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Maybe… I don’t know, I still see it just from a narration perspective. It just depends on which memories we’re seeing. If we’re seeing Harry’s memories, it’s from first person. If we’re seeing somebody else’s memories, it’s third person. But I don’t know; we could talk about this more.

Eric: Yeah, that could be, too.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, well, we are going to talk about this in Chapter 28 of Order of the Phoenix, “Snape’s Worst Memory,” and we will start with our Seven-Word Summary.

Eric: Discoveries…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: … are…

Micah: … difficult…

Andrew: … to…

Eric: … watch…

Laura: … in…

Micah: … Pensieve.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Okay, good work.

Micah: Sorry. I thought you were going to go with “for,” and then I was going to go with “Harry,” Laura.

Laura: Ohh.

Eric: I didn’t want to start with Harry, otherwise… I mean, this is maybe one of the chapters I should have, but…

Micah: That’s a rule. You can’t anymore.

Laura: Yeah, we can’t start with that anymore.

Eric: Okay, good. Just sticking to the rules, you guys. Go easy on us.

Andrew: This is a rare one where there’s no character name in it. I feel like normally we fit a character name in here.

Laura: I would give it… what’s the grade above, P? Poor?

Eric: Acceptable.

Laura: Acceptable. I’d give this an Acceptable.

Eric: Okay.

Micah: Well done. Good job.

[Eric and Laura laugh]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, so Chapter 28 starts off with Educational Decree 28.

Andrew: Oh! Dang.

Micah: What a shocker. I didn’t even realize that until I was just making that connection reading through the document here.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But no surprise that Professor Umbridge is now Head of Hogwarts, and this is following what happened with Dumbledore at the end of the last chapter. But I had a question about McGonagall. She is Deputy Headmistress. Why did she not take over for Dumbledore?

Andrew: Because Umbridge wanted to.

Micah: But who cares what she wants? That’s not the pecking order.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, I mean, Dumbledore just left the school and he escaped, and Umbridge isn’t happy and the Ministry isn’t happy, so they have to take control of the school. And I think they would suspect that Minerva is working with Dumbledore still, so they can’t let her control the school.

Eric: Yeah, she’s on thin ice for having made that comment about the justice system and Willy Widdershins in the previous chapter.

Laura: I also think… I mean, comparing it to the American school system, you have a vice principal and a principal. If the principal is banished from the school, it doesn’t automatically mean the vice principal gets that job. Somebody else could fill that post.

Andrew: Maybe Minerva didn’t want it. Maybe she wasn’t ready.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Don’t say that. Well, I can tell you one thing that she definitely would have been able to do, and that is access Dumbledore’s office, because I think the gargoyle would have moved aside for her, probably, but it is choosing not to do that for Umbridge. And I just wanted to say, Andrew, finally something in Hogwarts that isn’t a security nightmare.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: The gargoyle. It does its job.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: No, it’s not. No, it’s not. No, it’s not.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I missed that clip.

Andrew: I know; I had to play it anyway because it’s been a while. Yeah, but what is going on here with the gargoyle? Is it just loyal to Dumbledore? Does it think Umbridge being Headmistress is fake news?

Eric: Yeah, I think that’s it, because there’s probably some sort of formal process that is not being observed as far as making someone Head of Hogwarts.

Laura: Right. And I’m sure the portraits would take a similar stance if she were able to find her way into the office. We have to remember the portraits are supposed to assist whoever the current Headmaster of Hogwarts is, and I can’t see them helping Umbridge.

Andrew: Yeah. Or maybe Dumbledore said, “Don’t let that toad through if I’m not here.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I don’t think he would have had to say anything.

Micah: Do we think that it’s to protect something that’s in the office, or it’s just the matter of the gargoyle respects Dumbledore’s authority?

Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s loyalty more than anything.

Eric: Yeah, you’re protecting the sanctity of that position that Umbridge unceremoniously usurped.

Andrew: Anything Dumbledore doesn’t want touched in there is probably protected anyway through its own magic, I would think.

Eric: Oh, good point.

Andrew: There’s multiple layers of security at play, probably.

Micah: So his office is secure, but the rest of the school is not.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: It’s a free-for-all.

Andrew: He doesn’t care about the rest of the school.

Micah: One other thing that Umbridge does in this chapter is she creates the Inquisitorial Squad, and there’s a bit of a back and forth between a few of the prefects, and Draco makes it clear that actually, now he has more authority than just being a prefect; he’s a member of the Inquisitorial Squad. And to me, this is just a way that Slytherin is enabled to take House points from the other Houses, because nobody else is on the Inquisitorial Squad besides Slytherin, it seems like.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Yeah. Ugh, I hate this. Draco is very puffed up about it; he has a real ego. He’s talking about Umbridge hand-selecting people who she really trusts for this job, and it’s just like, “Man, you’re never going to tire of being a suck up, are you? You’re never going to tire of being on the wrong side of the argument here.”

Andrew: Well, and also just the way that Draco so flippantly takes points from Gryffindors is awful.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: He says, “So, Granger, I’ll have five from you for being rude about our new Headmistress… Macmillan, five for contradicting me… Five because I don’t like you, Potter…”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Weasley, your shirt’s untucked, so I’ll have another five for that… Oh yeah, I forgot, you’re a Mudblood, Granger, so ten for that…” I mean, this is awful.

Eric: Oh my God. Shirt untucked? Hogwarts has a dress code? That’s news to me.

Andrew: [laughs] No, no! Draco is just doing it because he can.

Eric: “I don’t like you”? These would not hold up under… where’s your Head of House? Come on, man.

Micah: Right.

Eric: But it’s weird because Draco has also learned from the worst; Snape, we see throughout the books, always docking points for less than ideal reasons.

Andrew: True, yeah. This just illustrates how control at the school has been surrendered to… well, has been given over to terrible people, and Hogwarts is out of control at this point.

Micah: Definitely.

Andrew: And the good guys are not winning.

Laura: Well, and I think that this is also sort of a micro example of why people who seek power shouldn’t be the ones to have it. It’s like, when you think about… I remember being in school and all the people who would run to do things like be hall monitor or class president, they were all words that I can’t say on this show.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And you were just kind of like, “Oh, wow. You are a bit power-hungry, aren’t you?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And so this just goes to show in a much smaller microcosm how this works and why the people who are currently in charge in the wizarding world have no business wielding any kind of power.

Eric: Well, ambition is one of the main traits of Slytherin, so could we also maybe look in a new light at the Inquisitorial Squad and say, “This will probably look good on their resume one day”?

Micah: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, it depends what job they’re applying for. Death Eater? Sure.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Ministry? Maybe. Hogwarts? No.

Micah: And it’s referenced, whatever the vials are that hold all of the House points. You’re just seeing all the other Houses – Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, Gryffindor – dwindle, and Slytherin just continue to rise. So it’s really just an unfair practice that Umbridge has put in place here.

Eric: Yeah, blatant favoritism. And the end result is that Gryffindors, by even midday, the whole hourglass that’s been accumulating gems all year is nearly empty. Gryffindor in particular. All Houses are getting it, but it’s mostly Gryffindor. The only Gryffindors not affected by this seem to be Fred and George, who, when they were about to get points taken from their House by Montague, ended up overcoming him and shoving him in a Vanishing Cabinet and literally sent him off to God knows where.

Micah: Yeah, I noted here that it’s a fireworks display that would humble any Republican on July 4, what the Weasley twins put together.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Oh, and this is before the fireworks, too. They just… they’re not taking crap from Montague. They’re pretty much impervious in this whole chapter, like you said.

Micah: Well, unfortunately, their actions have consequences as it relates to Montague, and we’ll talk about that in a second, at least… well, directly in this chapter, but then also in future books as well.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. But it’s just so fun seeing these older – I mean, really, they’re like brothers to Harry – just not give a crap, just not be affected by this. They’ve really checked out, Fred and George. I guess they pre-warn Harry, Ron, and Hermione, “Stay in the Great Hall; you’re going to want to be seen when this happens, so nobody suspects you. But there’s going to be a diversion. We’re over school, but we’re sticking around. We’re going to do our bit for Dumbledore,” I think they say.

Micah: Right, it’s really to show support and loyalty. We talked earlier about the gargoyle and its loyalty – if it is sentient, and I don’t really know if it is – but Fred and George have loyalty here too, and it’s on full display.

Andrew: Yeah, they know they can get away with it under Umbridge, so they do.

Micah: Well, and because they’re going to literally get away later on in this book. They have no intention of staying at Hogwarts, and I think they’ve been subtly hinting at that throughout the course of Order of the Phoenix. But really in this chapter, they’re making it clear to Hermione, to others, that they have no intention of staying for their final year.

Andrew: Can we thank Harry for this? Because he really kickstarted their business. I don’t know if they would have been as interested in leaving this early if it weren’t for the fact that they were getting Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes off the ground.

Eric: That’s a good point, actually, yeah.

Andrew: Thanks, Harry.

Micah: I think so, yeah. It’s his financial backing that allows them to do this.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And as Eric, you note here, it’s really impressive, though, the magic behind what they’ve created. It’s not just the fact that they’ve created it; just the intellect involved here, I think, is probably beyond what we would normally expect of Fred and George.

Eric: It’s very true to life, too, where you have some very, very smart people that don’t test well – we always hear about Fred and George’s grades not being at least as good as Molly would wish that they were – but this magic overcomes pretty much everybody. I mean, I say everybody; really it just only has to overcome Umbridge, which doesn’t seem to be that hard. But really, if you look at what the fireworks do – apart from getting Harry out of having to take Veritaserum, which is crazy, and I can’t wait to talk about that – if you try and vanish a firework, ten more grow in its place. It actually duplicates. And I’ve never seen anything like this, where you create something that is in and of itself magic, but how it reacts to specific other spells is unique to the spell that you would try and cast on it. It’s unbelievably complex. No idea how they did this. And these fireworks are just short of sentient; later in the chapter, Seamus wakes Harry up and is like, “Hey, that Catherine wheel mated with one of the other fireworks.” These fireworks are reproducing, you guys.

Micah: Yeah, it’s really fun to read, and it was great in the movies, too. I know it’s a slightly different scene, and it’s actually at the end of that scene that Fred and George depart the school. But it is noted, actually, in this chapter – and we’ll talk about in a little bit – how Harry sees those brooms locked up in the back of Umbridge’s office that Fred and George use to escape. But let’s quickly touch on Montague and the Vanishing Cabinet; Eric, you mentioned this before. There’s a lot of threads to connect here, the first being that Peeves breaks this cabinet back in Chamber of Secrets, and Montague does try to Apparate when he’s caught in the Vanishing Cabinet, and we learn later that he ends up Splinching himself. And Draco inquires later on about the cabinet and uses it to his full advantage in Half-Blood Prince, and of course, this whole scene is why Snape ends up leaving at the end of this chapter, and it allows Harry to enter his mind. So a lot of far-reaching consequences for what Fred and George do here to Montague.

Laura: Yep. Yeah, and I mean, this obviously sets up the whole thread between the Vanishing Cabinet at Hogwarts and the Vanishing Cabinet at Borgin and Burkes for Half-Blood Prince.

Eric: And isn’t this also…? Doesn’t Peeves drop the Vanishing Cabinet right over Filch’s office to get Harry out of a tight spot as a diversion? So in that chapter and in this chapter… because I think Nearly Headless Nick persuades Peeves to drop the Vanishing Cabinet to begin with over Filch’s office. So in both chapters, you have Harry in a tight spot, and then friends of his or associates are setting off diversions to be able to free him and get him out.

Micah: Yeah, that’s another great point. One… well, I think we have two other things here before we jump into Snape’s worst memory. The first is Harry’s time at Umbridge’s office and the fact that she is utilizing, and not really hiding it…

Andrew: [laughs] Not at all.

Micah: … some questionable techniques to elicit information from Harry.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yep.

Micah: And I don’t think right now we should really be surprised that she’s doing this, but the fact that she’s so blatant and so open… maybe it’s the power now of being Headmistress of Hogwarts, that she just doesn’t care that she’s using Veritaserum to try and extract the truth from Harry.

Andrew: Yeah, and I guess she thinks that Harry is really stupid to not realize what Umbridge is up to here.

Eric: Well, he almost falls for it, too. In fact, the only thing that stops him is that he sees a cat plate, and the cat has blue eyes like Mad-Eye Moody’s blue eye, and that makes Harry… lucky for that cat. Talk about a good circumstance.

Andrew: Right. Of course, the red flag here should have been – and I don’t think you even need to be as clever as Harry is sometimes to have realized what she was up to – if somebody’s encouraging you to drink something, that’s probably not a good sign ever.

Laura: No.

Eric: I mean, even just Umbridge being so civil with him, offering him something to drink. That should be a huge red flag.

Laura: Well, and it’s said that she made quite a show of adding milk to his tea, with her back turned towards him. But I think this all just goes to show that Umbridge thinks children are stupid.

Eric: Right.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: You can tell from the way that she talks to them; she’s baby-talking them in her sweetest voice. And I feel like we’ve all seen this at some point, somebody who thinks children are just dumb.

Andrew: Yeah. And I mean, they are.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Yeah, but not that dumb.

Andrew: No, no.

Laura: This is probably the largest crack in Umbridge’s plan, is she really underestimates who she’s working against here.

Andrew: Yeah. But it is entertaining to see Umbridge believe Harry here…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … because she does believe that he’s actually drinking this tea, and she’s like, “Yeah, I’ll believe you this time. Okay, no problem.” [laughs]

Micah: Well, it’s also clear that her motives go beyond just Dumbledore at this time, because she asks about Sirius specifically. She lets Harry know that she knows that Sirius tried to visit him earlier in the school year, and she lets drop the important piece of information that every point of access to the Floo Network is being monitored except for hers, which comes into play later on in the book.

Eric: Yeah, it’s nice to have, two chapters in a row, her giving just the useful tidbit of info, not realizing that she’s doing it to the person who’s going to maximize and utilize that.

Micah: I did want to touch on her relationship with Filch, though, because Filch is responsible for taking Harry over to Umbridge’s office, and he’s really excited about the fact that this next Educational Decree is going to allow him to torture students, and he also talks about getting rid of Peeves at some point. But I find it interesting that Umbridge would put so much trust in a Squib, especially knowing her history, knowing that her brother was a Squib and that she really hated her family, and her mother and brother were banished and sent away.

Andrew: Well, two things: I don’t know if Umbridge knew that Filch was a Squib, and B, Filch is on Team Umbridge, and I think Umbridge loves that about him, so she doesn’t really care to learn much about him other than the fact that he hates the students as much as she does, and he’s going to help her take over the school.

Eric: Exactly.

Micah: So she’s just taking advantage of him.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I mean, he’s in love, clearly.

Andrew: [laughs] He says some awful things in this chapter, I think towards the beginning, right? Or maybe in the scene that we’re talking about now, about he wants to hang the students, or something like that?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, he wants to hang them by their ankles.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, awful. And he says something else awful that’s escaping me at the moment, but yeah, you can see why Umbridge likes him so much.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: Well, I’d like to see him try and hang Fred and George or Harry and Ron from their ankles, because he can’t use magic. And with all that’s going on in the fireworks here, again, it just drives home for me how unsuited Filch is to really be caretaker of a magical school. I pity him every time he has to wipe or wash thousands of trophies or mop the floor without magic, because it’s just… at this school… look, children are smart, but they’re dirty. They’re careless sometimes. They don’t go clean up after themselves. And I would think that on a day when the students aren’t in complete rebellion, it would be very difficult to clean up after them. So if you factor in the fact that now Filch and Umbridge are spending their entire day – Umbridge’s first day as Headmaster – trying to clean up after these fireworks, Filch can’t help. He tries to swat it with the broom, I think, and the broom catches fire. It’s just so useless.

Micah: I think that the relationship goes both ways here between Filch and the students, right? If Filch was… the students clearly don’t like Filch, but would they respect him more if he could do magic, and he was a caretaker that had that ability? I feel like part of the whole reason why they don’t… that they break the rules – and look, kids are going to break the rules regardless – but to the extent that they do is because they know that Filch just can’t keep up with them in many respects.

Laura: Yeah, and this honestly makes me feel kind of sad for him, because obviously he’s not a great person at the point in the series that we come to meet him early on, but how long has he been caretaker at Hogwarts? When he started in that position, was he this way? Or did he become this way after years and years and years of abuse and prejudice at the hands of students who thought it was funny that he couldn’t do magic? And this got me thinking about what place do Squibs have in the wizarding world; what level of education are they entitled to? Are they always relegated to these janitorial type positions because they’re not able to do magic? It seems like a breeding ground to create a lot of disenfranchisement within a community of the wizarding world, and thus turn them to any group that would want to offer them any level of legitimacy. So I think it’s really easy that Filch would turn to Umbridge as somebody who’s willing to give him some kind of power, whereas if he had been given a level of respect in the wizarding world, like if he were entitled to a level of education, if Hogwarts had a Squib track…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: … where they could come and get some level of education, and there were things that they could do at the Ministry that were elevated positions where there was room for growth and it wasn’t just like, “Well, these are the three or four things that you can do in this wizarding world; otherwise, go live like a Muggle,” his story might have turned out differently.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: It is very sad. There’s an article on WizardingWorld.com specifically about Squibs, saying that they face the same prejudice as Muggle-borns. They can’t be Sorted. There’s all sorts of things…

Eric: Can’t be Sorted? Ahh!

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, do they even go to Hogwarts? Probably not. I mean, the only reason that Filch is there is quite honestly… we’ve talked about this a lot on other episodes; Dumbledore is an equal opportunity employer, right? He hires across the board. He doesn’t care about those things. So I think it just comes down to whether or not Filch is actually able to do his job. I think you’re putting him in a very challenging position. I almost wonder – and if this story was never explored by J.K. Rowling – is he the equivalent of somebody like a Trelawney, where Dumbledore felt the need to keep him at Hogwarts? Because it is a difficult job for somebody who doesn’t have magical abilities.

Eric: Yeah, I really wonder what Filch owes Dumbledore, or what Dumbledore owes Filch. If there is some strategic importance, the way that Trelawney is there for that reason.

Micah: Yeah. And he also mentions finally being able to get rid of Peeves, and again, a topic of discussion we’ve had before, but Peeves is kind of part of the fabric of Hogwarts. I don’t think you could ever get rid of him. He kind of comes with the castle.

Andrew: Right.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: He’s part of the charm.

Laura: I mean, Filch and Peeves are like the Tom and Jerry of Hogwarts.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: You can’t have one without the other.

Andrew: Right. It’s just one of many reasons why we love Hogwarts, and Filch gives the school some color as well. Now, it’s hard to feel bad for him, given his comments in this chapter, but I still agree, he’s something we… one element of the school that we enjoy.

Micah: Yeah, he’s that guy that you know he always has these… I almost think him as like the Wile E. Coyote, where he’s always trying to set these traps but they never end up working, or he’s never going to get the chance to use those ropes to string the kids up by their feet.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Filch gets all of his supplies from Acme.

Micah: Yeah, exactly.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: We need to have a discussion one episode devoted to the characters at Hogwarts who are a pain in the butt but we still love anyway, like Peeves or Filch, or the Fat Lady. She kind of sucks sometimes, but we still love her.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: One other thing, just to touch on here, is there wouldn’t be a chapter in Order of the Phoenix without a dream. And Harry has one, and he’s finally able to access what we come to learn is the Hall of Prophecy, and right when he’s about to extract that prophecy from its shelf, he gets woken up and he’s pissed off, and this sets off the whole chain of events that happen prior to Snape’s worst memory, where he’s just in a really bad mood. And if this wasn’t enough, to be woken up when he was about to finally realize what this has been about for the last couple of months, he runs into Cho on the way to his lesson with Snape, and things don’t go really well.

Andrew: No.

Micah: It’s probably an understatement.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Cho tries to apologize for what Marietta did, but it just completely goes off the rails.

Andrew: What really annoyed me is Cho says, “What are you so mad about? We got away, didn’t we?” I mean, yes, literally, physically, you got away, but you didn’t get away with anything. Dumbledore’s Army was exposed. Dumbledore had to flee the school over this. You guys didn’t get away.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah, it was a bit of a “Sorry not sorry” moment.

Eric: I mean, what really rubs Harry the wrong way is Cho characterizes Marietta, after the fact, as “a lovely person, really. She just made a mistake.” Harry doesn’t have the emotional complexity to handle this nuance of sometimes lovely people can make mistakes, or that… he’s all very “Team Me. Team Dumbledore. No mistakes. 100% loyalty.” And Cho knows Marietta, and she’s still going to be her friend after this, and that’s something that Harry just has zero tolerance for.

Laura: Yeah, and I think that’s probably because the stakes were really high here. If Marietta had made a much lesser mistake, Harry would probably be annoyed but willing to forgive, but I mean, Dumbledore’s Army at this point has effectively been disbanded. They’re not going to be able to meet anymore. Dumbledore’s been forced out of the school.

Eric: Right.

Laura: They have this new horrible Headmistress, and it all gets linked back to Marietta exposing the group. So I have to be with Harry in this case, honestly. I would be pretty ticked off too.

Eric: I mean, he has a good point. He says, “Ron’s dad works for the Ministry too!” Cho is trying to say that Marietta was in an uncomfortable position, but again, Harry is just like, “Well, Ron doesn’t do that. Hermione doesn’t do that. Hermione is really smart, actually.” And it’s just… you see Harry just really sticking with his trio, and I think that this is definitely the end of his and Cho’s would-have-been relationship.

Andrew: Good! She doesn’t deserve him.

Micah: No makeup…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: I wasn’t going to say the next word. But I also think it’s the fact that Cho doesn’t understand the entirety of the situation, too, and I think Harry kind of says that to her as he walks away. But I did think he was a little rough when he said, “Don’t cry now,” or something to that effect.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “What are you going to do, cry again?” Something to that effect, yeah.

Micah: So that was a little rough, but I just think that Cho doesn’t do a good job here of apologizing. And you know what? It’s not really her place. She shouldn’t have to apologize on behalf of Marietta to begin with, but she chooses to do so, and she just doesn’t deliver it in the right way. And Eric, to your point, I think there’s probably other examples, not just Ron, of members of Dumbledore’s Army whose parents work for the Ministry. I think… isn’t Susan Bones part of Dumbledore’s Army?

Laura: Yep.

Micah: There are others that could easily make that claim. I think Cho is just trying to defend her friend to the best of her ability.

Eric: Cho has to apologize for Marietta because Marietta can’t apologize for herself because Dumbledore and Kingsley took her agency away.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: She probably doesn’t even remember coming forward.

Micah: Well, she remembers the marks on her face, for sure.

Laura: Also, I think we can attribute some level of this to Cho having a more emotional reason for joining up with Dumbledore’s Army, and it was that she was trying to make sense of Cedric’s death. Not to say that she doesn’t understand the larger context behind why it’s important to learn defensive magic, but so much of this for her has been tied up in the emotional turmoil of grappling with what happened to her boyfriend, and then also developing feelings for the person who was with her boyfriend when he died. So she’s had more to contend with in the last few months than anybody else in Dumbledore’s Army – maybe with the exception of Harry – has had to deal with. You know what I mean?

Eric: Yeah. And maybe she’s just not there yet, learning that supporting the Ministry at this point is supporting the murder of your boyfriend. It is supporting Voldemort.

Micah: Well, it only raises the anger inside of Harry as he heads down to have this lesson with Snape, and it just seems like for Harry, there’s no good time to have an Occlumency lesson with Snape.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Because he’s woefully unprepared.

Eric: He’s like, “I should have been practicing… eh, I’m not practicing.” Or “I’m going to try during lunch or try during class today… eh, it’s no use. I’m just going to show up angry. I know I shouldn’t, but I’m going to.”

Micah: Yeah. And their lesson is interrupted by Draco, who is all but too happy to learn the fact that Harry is taking Remedial Potions. Also, shouldn’t Snape have locked the door? I mean, this is a pretty important lesson.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true.

Micah: That the two of them are meeting in secret. What if Umbridge came by?

Andrew: Yeah, imagine walking in on that. He needs a gargoyle of his own.

Eric: That’s a good point, actually.

Micah: So Snape takes off to go deal with Montague in the Vanishing Cabinet, and Harry sees that little glimmer show up as he’s walking out of the room. That little… I don’t know what to call it, but he’s intrigued, right? There’s something in the back of his mind. Maybe it’s Voldemort; maybe it’s not.

Andrew: And it reminds him of the dream he was having, I think, right?

Micah: Yeah, like, “Let’s go see what Snape doesn’t want us to see.”

Andrew: Yeah, this is… reading this again, it just reminded me how big of an invasion of privacy that this was. I really can’t believe that Harry did this. Now, J.K. Rowling tries to justify his decision; Harry is frustrated by his encounters with Draco and Cho and he’s in a reckless mood. But I was doing some reading on Pensieves in Goblet of Fire and I was reminded that Harry entered Dumbledore’s memory without his permission in the last book, and he got caught, so how could he possibly think that he wasn’t going to get caught this time? I know he’s in a reckless mood, but still, this is incredibly risky given your relationship with Snape. This is like going into, as Laura has written here – sorry for stealing it – somebody’s diary, or going onto somebody’s computer who you shouldn’t be, and there’s a lot of personal stuff on there, and if they catch you, they might be really mad. And of course, Snape would have the worst reaction to this if he were to be caught. So if I were Harry, I would not have dared to go into Snape’s memories.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, you’re right to point out he has a history of this. [laughs]

Micah: Well, I’m trying to remember… is it just in the movie, or is it also in the book? I feel like Dumbledore sets him up to go into that memory.

Andrew: I can’t remember, but when Harry…

Micah: Because he goes for one of those candies, and remember, the candy jumps on the floor, and then he hits a tile or something and the Pensieve comes out. I mean, that may just be a movie-ism.

Andrew: When Dumbledore returns, Dumbledore is not mad.

Micah: Correct.

Andrew: But he would know that Snape would be mad, and he should have learned his lesson the first time that if he dives into somebody’s memories, he might get caught. Because also, how does time move when you’re in somebody’s memory? Does time slow down? Does it speed up? Does it stay the same? I don’t know. I feel like going into somebody’s memories could take a lot of time, and Snape isn’t going to be away for long.

Micah: No, he’s fully equipped, probably, to handle that situation with Montague very quickly, knowing how good he is.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: And to your point, we don’t know how time moves when you’re in a Pensieve, so Harry could have been there for hours. Who knows, right? We don’t know. But I agree. I think it’s sloppy, though, on the part of Snape just to leave it there without thinking much of it.

Eric: I mean, Snape is actually doing his job. He’s doing his duty as Head of Slytherin House to go and rescue his student, and Harry banks on that, actually. It’s a very odd moment, because he says that Snape more than likely would also be accompanying Montague to the hospital wing, and that piece alone kind of convinces Harry falsely, but still that he has the time to do what he wants to do.

Micah: True.

Eric: I mean, I think of all the things he thinks he’s going to see, he does not expect to see his father. And this earnestness which he has to go into the memory, I think, is also misplaced, because if we look at what the last thing Harry saw in Snape’s mind, it was not a happy place. It was not a happy childhood. There was a very almost humanizing moment for Snape the first time we saw a look into his headspace, and I don’t think there’s a reason for Harry to suspect that this memory is going to be somehow any better.

Micah: It’s certainly an invasion of privacy, and the problem here is that it shuts down the Occlumency lessons moving forward. Regardless of what you think of Snape, it deprives Harry of one of his most important allies at Hogwarts now with Umbridge in control, because Snape has a direct connection to the Order and is fully aware of what’s happening. I mean, I don’t even think McGonagall knows the extent of what’s happening with Harry and Voldemort here.

Andrew: No.

Micah: Snape does. And so this just completely shuts down their connection to each other, and now this leads to what happens at the end of the book with Sirius, because the two of them just can’t… Harry and Snape, they’re not on speaking terms.

Laura: Yeah, I would say as of this point, Sirius is a dead man walking. His fate is sealed.

Micah: So let’s jump inside Snape’s worst memory here.

Andrew: No! That’s rude.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: No? It is rude.

Andrew: No, no. This is the end of the discussion. We can’t… [laughs]

Eric: It’s okay; I got written permission.

Micah: MVP of the Week.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: I thought one of the cool things, though, about his memory – if we can have any part of it be cool – is that we do get to see OWLs being taken, right? Before we see Harry do it at the end of this book. And James and Sirius and Remus and Peter are all there, and James is drawing initials on one of his papers, and I found it a little bit weird – and also, one of our listeners, Darin, emailed us to say that it was weird – that Harry doesn’t recognize his mother’s initials.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. I think he’s just so overwhelmed by what he’s seeing he can’t really process everything, and maybe he forgets his mother’s maiden name as well.

Eric: Yeah, who would have told him that? Who would have told him that Petunia and Lily were Evans before they were married?

Laura: I was going to say, is there any point where Harry is given this information prior to this scene?

Andrew: Yeah, I guess when would…? I mean, he could maybe see something in the Dursleys’ home that would tell him this, but otherwise, yeah, maybe he just never knew.

Micah: It’s possible.

Andrew: It’s an important thing to learn, because you’re often asked to make this one of your security questions online.

Eric: Right.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “What’s your mother’s maiden name?” And so you think Harry would have known by now.

Eric: But if he did know, then he would have had second thoughts about there being a Mark Evans living so close by to them at Privet Drive.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There you go. But he does learn, or at least he should have that takeaway at the end of the memory, because I think James calls her “Evans,” doesn’t he?

Andrew and Eric: Yep.

Micah: Well, one other observation Harry makes during these exams is Snape’s handwriting, and I found this interesting. It’s noted what Snape’s handwriting looks like by J.K. Rowling in this chapter, and so I found it a little bit odd that Harry couldn’t remember Snape’s handwriting in Half-Blood Prince. Now, I know this is a fleeting moment, but again, J.K. Rowling specifically calls out how Snape writes, and we know what’s coming in the next book.

Eric: Yeah, pretty cool moment. She keeps consistency. She calls it “cramped,” I believe.

Micah: We talked about this a little bit before, but we’re seeing Snape’s worst memory, really, here from the third person, right? It’s not through Snape’s eyes. And I guess it is just the magic of being in the Pensieve that you can expand it beyond what that person is actually experiencing, but then I wonder how it’s recorded.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Is it just from that person’s mind? Or how does that work?

Andrew: Well, so on Potter-No-More.com, there is some writing from J.K. Rowling about the Pensieve, and she says that it draws from your subconscious as well. But it’s noted in this scene that Snape’s head is buried in his OWL paper, so he’s clearly not focused on what’s going on around him, and yet Harry has a very clear picture of what his father and his friends are doing. I found that very interesting. Of course, we just have to set aside the fact that this is all not real, and the Pensieve can capture… or your memory can somehow capture everything that’s happening around you, whether or not you’re paying attention to it. But I would have thought this could check out better if maybe there’s some holes around Snape, like maybe in Snape’s memory Harry can’t see a particular corner of the Hogwarts grounds, or… I don’t know, the sky is missing or something like that. It’s just very patchy.

Laura: Well, I also thought that Harry mentioned he really wanted to keep up with the Marauders, but he was like, “Oh, if Snape goes off in a different direction, I’m not going to be able to.”

Andrew: There are, for sure, limits.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: He can’t get too far away from Snape. But you are hearing things that Snape himself wouldn’t even be consciously aware of, that he was picking up because… this is why Dumbledore uses the Pensieve; when you’re living those moments, you’re in your own head, especially if you have internal monologue, as about half people do. You’re always thinking about whatever your current stream of consciousness is. Going back into a memory by use of the Pensieve allows you to be outside yourself. You can study other people’s reactions; you can replay the scenario and really gain additional insight. And that’s the whole point of the Pensieve, is that it does this for you. So I just think it’s crazy, because we really test the limits of it here. I mean, we’re talking about at one point, they’re across the Hogwarts grounds from each other. They’re down by the lake and on a hill. It goes pretty far.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess how these memories work is they capture a bubble around the person, and you just need to stay within that bubble, and if you do, you get everything.

Micah: But what’s so odd about… and we don’t have to spend a lot of time on it. What I find so odd is he can actually hear the conversations, though, between James and Sirius and other members of the Marauders…

Andrew: Right.

Micah: … but there’s no way that Snape is close enough to hear those conversations, so how does that work?

Andrew: I would like to hear J.K. Rowling share more information. We can just chalk it up to magic, I think.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But setting magic aside, it does seem like a plot hole. It just really does not check out. Unless J.K. Rowling is saying that even your subconscious can capture everything happening around you from a distance?

Eric: I will say that this is the only time that Harry properly sees what his dad was like at school and the Marauders. After Book 3, I’ve wanted so desperately to see the Marauders in action. I still want a Marauders book series. [laughs] But this chapter, this tiny little bit that we get here is all the interaction we’re ever really going to get, so I take it at face value, and I’m like, “Yep, the Pensieve can do this. Totally cool.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Right.

Andrew: “If it means I get more Marauders, it’s worth it. I don’t care if it’s a plot hole.”

Laura: Also, I mean, none of us are neurologists here, but my understanding – and this is super rudimentary – is that your subconscious actually picks up a ton of stuff that you’re just not aware of, so I think that this might be the explanation. I would love to hear from somebody who’s actually studied in this field to explain how science could jive with the Pensieve.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Because it’s not even from, really, Snape’s perspective, because if it were, I think maybe even the take on it would be that much worse. And what leads me to believe that is, for example, when you get to a character like Remus, you can see the disappointment in his face, and I just don’t think that that’s something that Snape necessarily would record.

Andrew: Right. Well, J.K. Rowling can’t help herself; she has to be detailed, so even if it doesn’t check out, she’s like, “I’ve got to write the details anyway!”

Micah: There you go.

Andrew: “I love detail.”

Micah: So let’s talk a little bit about the younger versions of James, Sirius, Remus, Peter, Lily, Snape. It is very cool to get this scene, even though a lot of bad stuff does happen in it, but just the descriptors of these characters, Eric, I don’t know if you want to touch on them a little bit.

Eric: Yeah, just James in particular. I mean, J.K. Rowling writes that Harry feels like he’s “looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes.” [laughs] What an amazing way of saying that. Basically, their hair is exactly the same; even though James is sitting at the desk taking the test, Harry knows that if he stood up, they’d be within an inch of each other height-wise. I mean, I just get a shock down my spine every time I look at Harry looking at James in my head. It’s crazy.

Andrew: Yeah, I like the descriptions about the hair because that’s totally something the typical cool kid at school will do, toss his hair, keep it messy, get all the girls.

Eric: Yeah, and Harry’s hair has been the through line of all of these books. I was actually listening to Noma Dumezweni reading Chapter 2 of Book 1, and it’s all about how Petunia keeps… well, it’s not all about. Petunia keeps cutting Harry’s hair and it keeps growing back, and it’s all untidy. So untidy hair is the equivalent of Lily’s eyes for Harry and James, and so it’s nice to see it get this payoff with James paying so much attention to it.

Andrew: Interesting.

Laura: Yeah, what’s so interesting here, though, is… I mean, we see physically that Harry very much looks like his father, but in terms of temperament, they couldn’t be more different.

Eric: Yeah, Harry can read James. He understands what is going on inside, but it’s way different. He knows that his father is enjoying the attention that he’s getting, and it doesn’t… Harry is kind of slow on the uptake there, in terms of, “Oh, this is why he’s been spending so much time catching this Snitch and not telling Peter off, because, oh, he’s actually enjoying it right now,” and that just doesn’t… Harry is just shocked by it.

Micah: He certainly enjoys the attention; he enjoys the audience, but he’s really ultimately trying to impress Lily, and that’s why he does what he does a little bit later on. For Sirius, we get a lot of hints that he’s this very good-looking young man, and the ladies all swoon over him…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and he doesn’t necessarily seem too taken by that right now. He’s more kind of just loving the camaraderie with James.

Eric: Yeah, he’s in it for James; he doesn’t care that there’s these girls looking, I think, wistfully towards him, hoping he’ll ask them out. [laughs] It’s pretty cool to see just the original bromance in Harry Potter to be between these two. But as far as Sirius’s characterization, what I love the very most about this chapter, for Sirius, is that he has doglike qualities that are bleeding through into the descriptors. He barks laughter; he has a bark of laughter, so Sirius’s laugh sounds like a dog’s laughter, or is just the way that it’s described as coming out. And I actually found another one: When James points out Snape, it says, “Sirius’s head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit.” There’s all these dog qualities ascribed to the human Sirius, and it’s either because he becomes a dog Animagus, or maybe the fact that his Animagus form is a dog is because he already had these innate doglike qualities as a human. Very interesting stuff.

Laura: I think it’s the latter, probably, because you don’t get to choose what your Animagus form is, right?

Eric: Right, but I wonder if a year or two of transforming into a dog and you start taking those behaviors back with you. I think it could go either way.

Micah: He also has a bit of control over James as well, which is… at least in this scene, he’s the only one that seems to be able to control him, so there’s definitely that dynamic in their friendship.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: With Remus, we talked a little bit about this, but he very much does not approve of what’s going on. There’s a lot of frown lines appearing on his face throughout the course of the memory.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That being said, though, he is a bystander to what’s happening here to Snape, and I still don’t… I know he’s young, but he could step in and make a difference; I just think that he’s afraid of what the others might say if he does.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a shame that he doesn’t stand up.

Andrew: Yeah, and maybe he also knows that he needs to let this play out. This is just what happens; James needs to let it out of his system. I don’t know. It’s not right, but…

Eric: This is for the story. We need this to happen for story moments.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. That too.

Eric: It’s a shame that Remus doesn’t stand up. I kind of want more from him, actually.

Andrew: Yeah, I was about to say he’s the dad of this friend group, but maybe not if he’s letting this happen.

Eric: Yeah, the only explanation we ever get for this is back in Prisoner of Azkaban. He says – very clearly what Micah has said – that he’s afraid that if he stood up to his friends, they wouldn’t hang out with him anymore, which I don’t think that could be further from the truth. If they’re still hanging out with Peter after we see what Peter is like, then I don’t think there’s any real chance that they ever would have left Remus.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Peter is just kind of a loser, isn’t he? He’s just very…

Eric: He really just doesn’t have an obvious redeeming quality.

Andrew: Yeah, and he’s just infatuated with James catching the Snitch, and he’s a fanboy. He’s the odd one out.

Micah: He definitely doesn’t fit with the other three, so I wonder why he’s a part of this group. Just because he just seems like he’s a tagalong, and he’s just clapping and doing cartwheels for anything that James does.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: He just basically is there to keep James happy, it seems like.

Andrew: And that’s probably why he’s there, yeah.

Laura: For some reason when I read him clapping, I imagine the clap reaction from Animal Crossing.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “So impressive! Yes, yes!”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Now, I’m going to make a comparison here, at least for a few of them, and I know some people may not like this, but I don’t see that much dissimilar between them and Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in terms of how they treat particularly Snape in this chapter. As soon as they see Snape, it’s like, “Oh, Snivellus is here. Let’s go beat him up. It’s bully time.”

Laura: Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, James and Sirius are bullies, Peter is a bully by proxy, and Remus, I agree; it’s disappointing that he doesn’t do more to rein his friends in here.

Andrew: But they do turn good eventually.

Laura: Yeah, they redeem themselves.

Andrew: Exactly, which is more than what can be said for Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. Well, actually, that’s not true, but I mean, as we head towards Book 7, they turn bad, and then at least Malfoy turns good.

Eric: Right. Yeah, I just… for all the insight we do get into the Marauders, I still, coming out of this chapter, don’t really know why Peter is a Gryffindor. I want to know. I want to feel as though he is justified in being in Gryffindor House, in being part of this friend group, but he just doesn’t seem to represent any of the qualities that you would immediately peg as being Gryffindor-ish. And although he technically accomplished the same level of magic that they did – becoming an Animagus as a teenager is incredibly difficult – but it just doesn’t seem like he’s there for anything other than James or Sirius’s emotional support and being basically a sycophant to them.

Micah: I think there is, though, a level of bravery in what Pettigrew does, even though it’s not your traditional form of bravery, right? The betrayal and siding with Voldemort. For him, there’s a level of bravery in that, a level of courage in that, so maybe that’s one characteristic that you can apply that’s Gryffindor-like to him.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: The instinct for self-preservation, I guess.

Andrew: It looks like Lupin had befriended Pettigrew before they had met James and Sirius, so Peter got into the group that way.

Eric: Interesting. Before we get into the taunting of Snape, here’s another point I wanted to make, is they’re calling each other the nicknames out loud. They call each other Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs. I don’t think that this is necessarily the greatest idea? We know they’re having fun and don’t care about it, but somebody listening, such as Snape, it just… it’s something very easy to hate, is them calling each other these uncomprehensible nicknames that kind of also give away the fact that they’re illegally Animagus forms. It’s a problem for me. I’m just like, “You guys should be a little bit more careful.”

Micah: Eh, I chalked it up to just you have nicknames for your friends, and you call them by that nickname when you’re in school. And they’re young kids. I think it’s far worse when they’re talking out loud about the werewolf question on the test.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: That could give away a lot more than just the nickname. So as per your Quizzitch question, Eric, from last week, James casts several spells on Snape without Snape having done anything wrong; he’s just physically present. And this is a terrible bullying moment, right? We hear about this a lot in our society, where people are just there, and that’s enough for somebody else to attack them verbally or physically.

Eric: I mean, this level of bullying, the public display of it all, the spells… in particular, Impedimenta, which sounds really painful; it takes a long time for Snape to recover. And then Scourgify, which has soap bubbles coming out of your… what an unpleasant experience. I don’t know about you guys, but my parents… I’ve had my mouth washed out from soap once, and I hated it so much that my mom never did it again.

Andrew: Oh, well, that’s good, at least. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it was so painful for her to watch me having to experience that, that it never happened again. So it’s awful, you guys. And this bullying… I’ve got to say, I thought I had it bad, but this in particular, I think, is… this one scene is worse than any bullying I’ve ever had to endure. It’s the humiliation, it’s the physical attack, and it’s the spectacle that just… you’re your worst self. Snape is nothing but a victim here, and it takes away his ability to… he just can’t defend himself. He feels so helpless.

Andrew: What a silly thing to wash out a mouth. I think my mom did that to me once as well; I wish I remembered why. But I feel like that’s on its way out. [laughs] That’s a parenting trick…

Micah: Yeah, I don’t think you could get away with that… yeah, I got the cayenne pepper when I was younger.

Andrew, Eric, and Laura: Cayenne pepper??

Andrew: Is that a spray?

Laura: They would put that in your mouth? No, it’s a herb.

Andrew: Wow. What did you do, Micah?

Micah: It’s very, very hot. I probably said a word I shouldn’t.

Andrew: Is that why your voice is so deep, because of that cayenne pepper?

Micah: Yeah, exactly.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: If people want to get a deeper… Andrew, there’s still time for you. Go get some and…

Andrew: Okay. Alexa, order me a cayenne pepper. Does Taco Bell sell them?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: The P.O. Box is getting flooded with thank you letters to my Micah’s mom. “Thank you for making his voice so low. Thank you.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: The owls are very busy today.

Micah: Yeah. And Lily comes to Snape’s defense and has a go at it with James, but Snape makes the mistake of really not wanting any assistance here, and turns around and calls her a Mudblood. And I just think this is in the moment; he’s upset. He’s more upset, obviously, with James than with anybody else, but he just is throwing hatred in as many directions as he possibly can, and he hits Lily, who we know is supposedly… I don’t know where their friendship is at this point, but was friends with him at one point.

Laura: Yeah, I’m wondering if at this point she and Snape have already had their falling out. We get to see that in Deathly Hallows in Snape’s memories as well, but she basically tells him, “You’re running with this very dark crowd of people; I don’t want anything to do with it,” and I’m wondering if that has already transpired as of this point?

Andrew: I would say yes, because Lily is trying to defend him in this scene and yet Snape still says this awful thing to her. And yes, he is very angry because of what the Marauders are doing in this moment, but I don’t know. Something else is missing here, and I think it is that falling out.

Laura: Yeah. Well, then she almost laughs a little bit…

Micah: She does.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: … when James turns Snape upside down and exposes his dirty underwear. And then she says, “Oh, you may want to consider washing your underpants, Snivellus,” so she really turns after he calls her “Mudblood.”

Eric: And I think that’s it. I think this is why this chapter is called “Snape’s Worst Memory.” The memory isn’t that bad or his worst because he’s been bullied – he’s presumably bullied all the years he’s at Hogwarts – but I think the reason that this is Snape’s worst memory is because he gets to this place of being so humiliated that he calls a girl he actually is in love with a Mudblood, and it gives her permission to no longer care for him.

Micah: That’s a great point.

Eric: I think he is his own worst self at this moment. I don’t think he really does care about blood status at all, especially when it comes to Lily; he’s willing to overlook it. But because he says it, he’s outwardly trying to be cool, like, “Oh, I don’t care about a Mudblood; I don’t need any help from a Mudblood…” You ever say something and you regret it for the rest of your life? That’s this moment for Snape.

Micah: Right.

Eric: But Lily did what she could. She’s trying to defend him. She clearly loathes James, and that’s something that Harry takes away with him into the next chapter. But it’s because he called her this that she’s able to divorce herself from any next level feelings for Snape.

Micah: And you get a sense that this was all a show for Lily, essentially. That’s why… James is just acting out, right? He’s trying to flex his muscle a little bit, be cool in front of all the students that are watching. Most of them are presumably enjoying all this, with the exception of Remus, who’s frowning on the side…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and Lily, who tries to step in and make a difference. And it’s interesting here, because there’s a lot of… I see a lot of connection between Harry and Lily here, because I feel like Harry would do what Lily does in this moment and step in to try and rescue the person, right? He’s got a saving people thing. So actually, outside of looks and being good at Quidditch, he’s much more of his mother’s son than he is his father’s.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: I think it’s a good point. Even when James says, “Oh, I’ll stop all this. Go out with me, Lily. Go out with me, Evans.” The fact that he’s willing to see this whole behavior as bad or a means to an end to get a date, basically, with Lily is completely different than any line of thought that Harry has ever had cross his mind.

Micah: And I would just add that’s why I think it’s so important that he has his mother’s eyes, particularly as it relates to Snape, because all Snape can see is James, with the exception of the eyes.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: If Harry had James’s eyes, too, Snape would have killed him, probably.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, because it gets to that level. Snape is so forced on the ground, can’t even move, and he’s saying something like, “Just you wait,” or “You wait,” and that’s all he can sputter out while his mouth is still dripping of soap, is “You wait.” I see instantly the thread of history that leads to Snape betraying the wishes, confiding the prophecy that he happens to overhear, to Voldemort, because it means that James Potter is marked for death. And I can see instantly – this is the brilliance of the writing – is I can see instantly how one scene leads to the other. Snape is going to be the one to condemn James Potter to death and prove that he ain’t shit, because in this moment, he is absolutely the shit. It’s bad.

Micah: Yeah. Well, this can be a whole ‘nother discussion about the effects of bullying and what that can lead to, but it’s a fair point that this really puts James’s head on the chopping block, essentially, for what happens in the future. But I will just note, though, that Snape’s reaction and his response, whether it’s intentional or unintentional just in the moment, it’s one of actual physical violence, and I think that’s important here, right? He physically cuts James. James is bleeding as a result, as a response to what’s happened here, whereas James’s spells, they’re not necessarily physically harmful, they’re more just taunting. I’m not trying to resolve him of responsibility here; don’t get me wrong, but I do think it is interesting that Snape’s response is physically harmful to James.

Eric: I mean, Snape is a caged animal. He’s going to lash out a little bit. I think as someone who is bullied, you almost strive for trying to be physically… you want to lash out and then stop this attack and all future attacks, don’t you? I don’t know. He just cuts his cheek a little; I don’t think it’s that bad.

Laura: I mean, none of it’s good or appropriate, but I think it’s the equivalent to if you were ever in school and you witnessed somebody being bullied mercilessly to the point where they finally threw a punch.

Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s pretty bad. He is cutting him. If you see something like that happen in school, in the real world, that’s a big, big problem.

Eric: Yeah, but I mean… well, he’s cutting him, but he’s cutting him in a magic school where you could do a…

Andrew: Easily fix it, yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So I think that is only a minor adjustment that needs to be made mentally, I think, on our parts.

Andrew: True. Or heck, even breaking bones. That’s simple to fix, too, sort of.

Laura: Well, and every time Snape tries to get off the ground, James does something else, so I think that this is Snape’s response of just trying to shock James and to stop.

Andrew: Yeah, scare him off.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: It reminded me of Sectumsempra, so I wonder if it was a bit of a precursor to that. And just maybe Snape goes about coming up with these spells because of the fact that he’s been bullied.

Eric: Probably. And actually, I’m glad you brought up Sectumsempra, because this Levicorpus spell that James uses at the end, Snape invented.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: It’s directly stated in, I think, Book 6. But I mean, James is using his own spells against him, and we know how Snape feels about that. [laughs]

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Well, I think that wraps up the chapter. Obviously, Harry gets caught; we know the implications for that moving forward. It makes a bad day for Harry even worse. But I thought we could just end talking about how Harry is left feeling, because this has to be a pretty discomforting revelation for him about his father.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. And it’s noted just how Harry feels very sad. He feels defeated. He’s suddenly realizing that his dad was a you-know-what, and poor Snape was a victim of James’s abuse. So it’s really interesting how Harry feels so bad and he’s just so shocked, but he can’t sit down with Snape and talk to him about it because now Snape hates him and is embarrassed. I just kind of feel for Harry in this scene because I feel like he wants to talk to Snape and be like, “Hey, I hear where you’re coming from; I’ve been in this situation too,” but Snape doesn’t want to hear that. He’s done with Harry.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: Of course, this flashback did fuel speculation over whether Snape loved Lily or vice versa, and we have a TBT clip now. Back on Episode 91, which was released May 19, 2007 – so of course, this was before Book 7 was released – we were debating whether Snape really did have a crush on Lily, and this little clip stars Eric and Laura.

[Flashback clip plays]

Laura: Maybe they were friends. A lot of people think that there was a whole secret love affair going on; I don’t. But they think that they might have taken some upper-level classes together and that Lily might have actually helped Snape the way that Hermione helps Harry.

Ben: Lab partners or something.

Eric: Well, lab partners is plausible, but I think it was unrequited, whatever it was. She felt sorry for Snape.

Laura: No, I don’t think that they liked each other that way.

Eric: No, I totally think that she felt sorry for Snape but didn’t actually… I mean, Lily is the kind of person who strikes me as… she respects humanity. She’s not going to insult Snape because he had bad parentage. She’s not like that; she’s smarter than that. But at the same time, I don’t think she was in love with Snape at all.

Laura: No.

Eric: I just think she was nice enough to him and genuinely nice enough that it just sparked… he had a crush on her and he wanted to act on it, but she just didn’t feel that way. But at the same time, she’s going to stop James Potter from completely humiliating him.

Laura: Do you really think that he liked her, though?

Eric: I’m saying if he did, I don’t think it was…

Laura: As a crush? I don’t know.

Eric: I don’t think it was platonic.

Laura: I don’t really think he did.

Eric: I don’t think it was returned love.

[Flashback clip ends]

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: Interesting.

Laura: Look at you, Eric.

Eric: I can’t listen to myself, honestly, these days.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh my God. Yeah, I know, I heard my 18-year-old voice, and I was like, “What happened?”

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, you both sounded like babies. That was before Laura took the cayenne pepper.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I think you were right there, Laura, and I wasn’t taking into account the Spinner’s End stuff, so definitely wrong.

Laura: I mean, I think you were kind of right.

Andrew: Yeah, you were.

Eric: All right!

Micah: Eric finally wins the debate.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I still can’t listen to it. That’s going to be hard.

Micah: It’s also worth noting, though – speaking of connecting the threads, right – that this chapter is basically bookended with mentions of Mudbloods. First it’s Hermione, and then it’s Lily.

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: One by Draco, one by Snape.

Andrew: Interesting, interesting.

Micah: I don’t know. What does that say? Is there hope for Hermione and Draco? Does Draco secretly love Hermione?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I mean, according to Cursed Child, aren’t they kind of friendly later?

Andrew: Yeah, but they’re not in love or anything. Come on.

Micah: Anyway.

Andrew: All right.

Laura: I mean, we didn’t think that Voldemort and Bellatrix were in love either, but…

Andrew: True. That’s true. Well, we’ll stay tuned for Book… 9? 10? To learn more about Hermione and Draco.

Micah: There you go.

Andrew: Let’s move over to the Umbridge Suck count now. The count currently stands at 69, and there are a few to add this week. For thinking she should be Head of Hogwarts.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: And does become Head of Hogwarts. For creating the Inquisitorial Squad.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: And then this one, this is a big one: letting the Inquisitorial Squad dock any number of points for any number of reasons, and we listed off those reasons earlier, including being a Mudblood, for your shirt being untucked… how many should we give Umbridge for this?

Laura: I think we should give her one for each type of point deduction.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: So one for being a Mudblood…

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: One for your shirt being untucked…

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: One for not liking you, Potter…

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: One for Hermione contradicting Draco…

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: And then I think the other for Ernie contradicting Draco?

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: So that was five. Wow, wow.

Laura: I think she… that is egregious.

Eric: Yeah, she made each of those things possible justifiable reasons, so I agree.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Well, trying to drug Harry. That’s worth at least two, I think.

Micah: I think, yeah, it’s got to be more than one.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: Teacher trying to drug a student.

Andrew: And then her inability to control some magical fireworks created by two 16-year-olds.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: And for asking Filch for help. I mean, that might be worth another point as well.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: I’ll give her two for that. Okay, so that’s…

Micah: 11.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Wow, 11 more. So now we’re already up to 80. Woo!

Micah: All right.

Eric: [laughs] You guys think we’re going to break 100? Or is it gong to rest just under…?

Micah: Oh, for sure.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: We will definitely break 100.

Andrew: How fun. I can’t wait to crack 100. We’ve got to have a party at 100.

Eric: We earned each of… well, Umbridge earned each of these. That’s just so unbelievable. I don’t think we were careless with these; I think each of these times she has indeed sucked.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I think once we’re done with this book, we need to go back and do an Umbridge Suck count fast cut where we take all the Umbridge Suck counts from all the episodes…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … edit them together into one major Umbridge Suck count episode…

Andrew: All right, Laura, get working on it.

Laura: … send it to J.K. Rowling… yeah, no, I will, and then send it to J.K. Rowling and be like, “Here you go.”

Micah: She’s worse than Voldemort.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Okay, now it’s time for the James Suck count. No, I’m just kidding.

Laura: [laughs] He deserves it.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: It’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Peter Pettigrew for working his way into a cool group of people. He’s a loser, and he got his way in there, so I’m pretty impressed by that.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I’m going to give it to the wizards playing cards. There’s a portrait of a witch that has to go into their portrait when the fireworks are happening, and they stand up out of their gentlemanly good nature to let the woman into their frame.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Professor Flitwick for not only administering the OWL exams to the Marauders, but for also saying to Umbridge, “You know, I could have taken care of the fireworks, but I wasn’t sure if I had the authority to do so.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s a great moment. I’m going to give mine to the Weasley twins; those fireworks were amazing. They got Harry out of a tight spot.

Andrew: True that.

Laura: It’s perfect.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Okay, and now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “Harry’s Worst Lesson.”

Eric: Aww. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “The Test.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: That is very lackluster. I forget why I said that. I guess…

Andrew: The OWLs?

Eric: It’s because of the OWLs, but it’s also… yeah, it’s whether Harry is going to make the decision to violate Snape’s memory. All that kind of stuff.

Micah: It’s all a test.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: And he fails.

Eric: And he fails it, yeah.

Micah: All right, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “Daddy Issues.”

Andrew: [laughs] That’s my favorite this week.

Micah: I like Laura’s.

Eric: Me too.

Laura: [laughs] I said Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 28, “How I Met Your Mother.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Good stuff. Well, it’s been a big episode of MuggleCast. If you have any feedback about this week’s discussion, send it on in to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send us a voice memo, just like Griffin did. Tell us about your favorite meal at Taco Bell.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And we’d love to hear from you. It’s really great to hear from our listeners.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What are the three spells that James casts on Severus, besides Levicorpus? They were, of course, Expelliarmus, Impedimenta, and Scourgify. Correct answers… we actually got a lot of correct answers. Congratulations to these winners of Quizzitch: Sarah, Caleb McReynolds, A Man Is Quarantine, Marissa, Samwise, Food Forest Next Door, Count Ravioli, Erika, Rachel, Matthew Two Beers, Stacy Z., Where in the World Is Kevin Steck?, and Diego Not Ruby.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Wow, Where in the World Is Kevin Steck? came back.

Andrew: Where in the world was Where in the World Is Kevin Steck?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Welcome back, friend.

Andrew: I have to also say, Count Ravioli became a patron in the past week…

Laura: Yay!

Andrew: … and I sent her a video “Thank you” message. I was so excited to see Count in the list there.

Micah: Did you address her as such?

Andrew: Of course! Of course I called her Count.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I mean, that’s her name on Patreon too now.

Micah: Oh, is it? Nice.

Andrew: So welcome, Count Ravioli, to Patreon. [laughs] She said she couldn’t resist the T-shirt.

Micah: Nice.

Laura: They are really nice.

Andrew: We’ll have to send her some ravioli with that T-shirt, I think.

Eric: [laughs] Uncooked, I hope, so that… sealed.

Micah: She can cook whenever she wants.

Andrew: Yes, yes.

Eric: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: Not poisoned. Nothing like that.

Micah: Doesn’t get all over the shirt, yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I also have to shout-out to our friend Andrew, who has been submitting the Quizzitch answers…

Andrew: Oh, thank you.

Eric: [laughs] Shout-out to Andrew. No, Andrew V., who has been submitting Quizzitch answers over Facebook. We don’t typically take them there, but he said he doesn’t have Twitter and isn’t going to get one.

Andrew: [laughs] Not even for us.

Micah: There you go.

Eric: He’s been correct the last couple episodes.

Micah: I like it. He’s standing firm, standing his ground. Not giving in.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: Some people submit via email too…

Micah: Yeah, they do.

Andrew: … and we appreciate that, and it’s nice hearing from you, but we typically check only via Twitter. But thank you for playing; we do appreciate it.

Eric: Yes, thank you, Andrew V. Next week’s question: What punishment does Umbridge instruct Filch to give the Weasley twins for their swamp?

Andrew: Uh-oh, Spaghettios.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. We would really appreciate your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and like I mentioned earlier, you will receive that special 15th anniversary T-shirt if you pledge at the Dumbledore’s Army level or higher; just be sure to pledge by June 30 to receive it later in the year. We’re really excited to get those out to everybody. Don’t forget to follow us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and we will keep everybody posted with the latest show developments. I think we’re going to be off over Memorial Day weekend, but we will be doing Quizzitch Live the week before. Okay, thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #464

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #464, Dumbledore Gone Wild (OOTP 27, The Centaur and The Sneak)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We are recording on Saturday, May 2, a very solemn day in the world of Harry Potter. [tearfully] It’s the Battle of Hogwarts anniversary, and…

Eric: [singing] Happy birthday to Victoire Weasley.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Did anybody know that was Victoire Weasley-Delacour’s birthday?

Eric: I don’t remember that being the case.

Laura: It was new knowledge for me.

Micah: When was that revealed? Was that also tweeted this morning?

Andrew: That was the other day, yeah. So between 2015 and 2018, J.K. Rowling, as Harry Potter fans probably remember, she would take to Twitter on the anniversary of the Battle of Hogwarts and apologize for killing one Harry Potter character per year. In 2015 she apologized for Fred; in 2016, Lupin; in 2017, Snape; and in 2018, Dobby. She disappeared from Twitter last year, so there was no apology last year, but now she’s back, as we’ve been speaking about, and we wondered if she would apologize for a character death this year. I logged on to the MuggleCast Twitter account and I tweeted her on April 30, “Hey…” I tried to be really friendly about it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I said, “Hey, friendly reminder that the anniversary of the Battle of Hogwarts is coming up,” wink emoji. I didn’t think she would actually reply. Well, scrolling through Twitter on May 1, and look at this: J.K. Rowling replied to our tweet!

Laura: Yay!

Micah: Not directly, though.

Andrew: Directly!

Micah: Oh, she did?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: It was a direct quote tweet, right?

Andrew: Yes, she quoted the tweet.

Micah: Oh, I thought you were just embellishing.

Andrew: No, no.

Micah: But please go ahead.

Andrew: Okay, yeah. Wow.

Micah: So when is she coming on the show?

Andrew: So you don’t follow her on Twitter anymore? I thought you did.

Micah: No, I did. I got the alert this morning that she had tweeted when I woke up…

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: … so I went to read the tweet, but I didn’t know it was in response to ours, and I also saw yours this morning as well.

Andrew: Okay, so I tried to remind her, “Hey, Battle of Hogwarts anniversary is coming up. Don’t forget; you have to issue your apology.” I didn’t say that part, but I just wanted to jog her memory. So she replied to our tweet, “Also Victoire Weasley-née-Delacour’s birthday, but that gets overshadowed. I feel bad for her. The wizarding equivalent of being born on Christmas Day and christened Holly.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Poor thing.

Micah: Whatever that means.

Laura: Isn’t it also [in a French accent] “Victoire”?

Andrew: Victoire Weasley…

Laura: I don’t speak French, but I feel like that might be…

Andrew: Laura, we’ve been doing this for 15 years. You know I’m not good at pronouncing things.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: [in a southern accent] “Victoire.”

Andrew: You guys can just cut in and issue your corrections. So anyway, this tweet actually caused a little bit of controversy because people are saying that she placed the “née” wrong.

Eric: Yeah, because it’s usually used to denote maiden names, right? But it’s Bill and Fleur’s daughter, so she doesn’t… I mean, her maiden name would presumably be… if Bill and Fleur married, but Fleur didn’t take his last name and she’s Victoire Delacour-Weasley, maybe then that could be…?

Micah: Her maiden name would be “Weasley,” not “Delacour.” Is that what you’re trying to say?

Eric: Yeah, I think J.K. Rowling was just trying to specify that it was Bill and Fleur’s kid.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Micah: Stop giving her a hard time. Everybody wants her to tweet, and then when she tweets, she gets crap for it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s exactly right.

Andrew: This is why she left Twitter.

Eric: No, I saw that, and I saw it was becoming a thing, and I was like, “Oh, God. We’ve caused more controversy.”

Laura: You know what, though? I could definitely see Fleur going very progressive and being like, “No, you know what? I’m birthing this child, so she’s going to get my name.”

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Eric: But then she has to marry a Weasley to become Weasley née Delacour.

Laura: Maybe they hyphenated.

Eric: Oh, maybe.

Micah: No, but I think what Laura is saying is what if when they married, Bill took Fleur’s last name, then her last name would, in fact – the child’s – would be Delacour.

Andrew: So this wasn’t the most exciting reply from J.K. Rowling, I must say; however, we are grateful that she acknowledged MuggleCast, and for a couple of minutes on the morning of May 1, she was thinking about MuggleCast, so that’s nice. Let’s get this one printed and framed in all of our homes.

Micah: Yeah, there you go. When is she on the show? Did she say? Did she get back to you on that?

Andrew: [laughs] I didn’t want to be that guy following up to her response, “Hey, can you come on the show?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That’s just annoying. We’ll try in a few months.

Eric: I think she has a good… this was a witty reply. If this had been all that we had gotten this year, I would have been pretty happy with it, because she makes a good point. There’s all these people who have birthdays close to Christmas and it just… their birthday is overlooked because…

Andrew: They get overshadowed, yeah.

Eric: Or all the people born on 9/11. Don’t you know somebody born on 9/11?

Andrew: I was just going to say… [laughs] “Do I know somebody?” Former MuggleCast host Matt was born on 9/11.

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: Before the actual 9/11, of course. But yeah, so his birthday is always overshadowed by this terrible day in American history.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: So like I said, we are recording on May 2. We woke up to some tweets from J.K. Rowling; she did not apologize for a new character death, but she had a good alternate response. She said, “Today is the 22nd anniversary of the Battle of Hogwarts, but I’m going to be honest and say that it feels inappropriate to talk about fictional deaths today. Too many people are losing loved ones in the real world. So on this anniversary of a great wizarding victory, I’m thinking of the people who are out there doing their jobs to protect us and our way of life. I have three key workers in my immediate family, and like all such relatives, I’m torn between pride and anxiety. As ever in a crisis of this sort, the poorest and most vulnerable are hit hardest, so in honor of the Battle of Hogwarts, I’ll be making a donation of 1 million pounds, half of which will go to crisis.org.uk, who are helping the homeless during the pandemic, and half of which will go to refuge.org.uk, because we know that domestic abuse has, sadly, increased hugely during the lockdown.” So very good response from J.K. Rowling.

Eric: Yeah, super, super classy and extremely just, I think, appropriate. Fitting, right? Yeah, this is going to help a lot of people.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s nice to see that she… it sounds like if it weren’t for the pandemic, she may have actually done another one of these character apologies, which nobody should take seriously. It’s just a fun thing; it’s cathartic to see from J.K. Rowling if you’re really missing the character that she is apologizing for killing. But yeah, I think this was a really good response, so good on you, Jo.

Micah: Yeah, I thought so. It’s really well done on her part to make that donation. And I’m sure she’s made other donations, probably that we don’t even know about, with everything that’s been going on.

Andrew: Absolutely.

Micah: But as it relates to apologizing for character deaths, why does she limit herself to the Battle of Hogwarts? When’s the Cedric apology coming?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, she doesn’t, because she apologized for Dobby.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Dobby didn’t die in the battle.

Micah: Oh, true.

Andrew: Nor did Snape. Yeah, she just does the apology on the anniversary of the Battle of Hogwarts. So who do you want her to apologize for?

Micah: I was just throwing out Cedric because all those characters that are listed there all died in Deathly Hallows. I’m thinking more of Goblet of Fire

Andrew: Right.

Micah: … or Order of the Phoenix, given what happens.

Laura: Well, he does get to come back kind of, right?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That is true.

Eric: He lives on forever in Cursed Child.

Micah: And I know, Eric, come on. What are you going to do the day she apologizes for Sirius Black?

Eric: I will weep into a giant pillow.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or maybe she just doesn’t feel bad about Sirius, but she does about these other characters.

Eric: I know!

Andrew: Ooh, shots fired.

Eric: I know. That’s totally… that’s the thing; this might undercut… and we’re going to talk about this in a bonus MuggleCast, actually, that we record after this episode, but should she apologize? All the things we touched on here a little bit more. And yeah, it’s her book, her story. She can choose to feel bad for what she did or not.

Micah: What about Dumbledore? I mean, come on. Anyway… speaking, though, Andrew, of tweeting at J.K. Rowling, I had a less successful attempt, or maybe she did join us last weekend and we just don’t know it…

Andrew: Oh!

Micah: … for Quizzitch Live: The Prisoner of Knowledge. We did our third installment of Quizzitch Live, and it was a lot of fun, but I did tweet at her that she should join us. I would be interested to see what username she would take, because in the past, I know she’s talked about in interviews about how she would go into forums to read theories under fake names, and she would actually…

Andrew: The MuggleNet chatroom.

Micah: Yeah, she would propose things I would presume that were true, and she would laugh at how people would respond to them because they thought that it was fake.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: So I thought it was a good opportunity. I mean, I’m sure she wasn’t doing anything. When did we do that? 11:00 a.m. Eastern on last Sunday?

Andrew: Yeah, we purposely did it so people in the UK could do it during their daytime.

Micah: Yeah, so she could join.

Andrew: Yeah, right. Maybe she was LeslieSucksGoZach, who placed first.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Maybe.

Eric: She knew Sirius Black’s vault number.

Andrew: Congratulations to Chloe, Margo, LeslieSucksGoZach, Stacy, Danny, and Melissa for winning the top prizes. Actually, Micah, I think you’re onto something here, because I did email all of these winners, and the prize we were giving away was an edition of a Harry Potter book that you don’t have, and one of these people replied, “Oh, don’t worry, I have every edition ever; I am the author.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: So now I’m putting the pieces together.

Micah: And was their address in Edinburgh?

Andrew: [laughs] Well, she didn’t have to give me the address, because she didn’t need her prize.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s funny. You see…

Andrew: That would be crazy, wouldn’t it? I would pass out.

Micah: But I really think these trivia games that we get to do every couple of weeks are just so much fun, and even coming up with the questions. I know Eric did a great job last week. Him and I are working on the fourth installment, which I think, fair to say…

Andrew: What’s the theme?

Micah: The theme is going to be Quizzitch Live: The Goblet of Popcorn.

Andrew: Ooh.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Use your mind and make some connections there to figure out what exactly the trivia is going to be about.

Andrew: [laughs] Use your mind. Control your mind. All right, so yeah, that’ll be in the weeks ahead, sometime later this month. Also, we have big news today: We have been teasing a new physical gift being sent out to patrons this year, and we have now announced it over on Patreon, and we will be announcing it here now. This year’s physical gift going out to all Dumbledore’s Army patrons and above is the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt!

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: It features a new MuggleCast crest, which I guess we can call a MuggleCrest?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I accidentally typed “MuggleCrest” instead of “MuggleCast” when I was putting together these notes. I was like, “Hmm, why didn’t we think about that sooner?”

[screaming goat sound]

Andrew: Wow, even the goat is excited. So anyway, we created a new MuggleCast crest for our 15th anniversary. The shirt also has a small graphic on the shoulder with the year of our birth, 2005. The shirt is available in two colors, blue and beige, and available in men’s and women’s cuts. It is a breathable shirt with a nice fit, and it’s tagless, but “MuggleCast” is imprinted inside the shirt where the tag normally is.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: And that just makes it legit AF. So patrons who are at the Dumbledore’s Army level or above can fill out the order form right now; shirts will start going out, I think, by June. And then, if you aren’t a patron, it is not too late to get the MuggleCast T-shirt! Just become a patron before June 30, and then once you are a patron for three months, we will send you the T-shirt. And I can’t wait to start getting these shirts into everybody’s hands. And I really want everybody to take pictures of themselves wearing these shirts, and we’ll be featuring them on social media. So the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt, available now for patrons who pledge $5 or more per month. We love doing a physical gift every year because we know that you’re putting up your hard-earned money for us, so we want to invest that money back in you. So check it out!

Micah: Yeah, and I think also just worth touching on, if you become a member of Dumbledore’s Army or higher, which is the Slug Club, you get a ton of other great benefits, so it’s not just the physical gift that we’re talking about here. It’s bonus MuggleCast; it’s access to the show, the document, the live recordings; if you’re a Slug Club member, you can cohost with us. So there’s a ton of great benefits that come along with it, not just the physical gift itself, although this is awesome. When do I get mine?

Andrew: [laughs] We will get you a shirt soon, once we start printing more. We did get samples, and Eric and I have enjoyed them so far, but we will get them…

Micah: Oh, so Laura and I know where we stand.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, you stand not in Chicago where I can’t easily hand you one.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: So which one of you tried the women’s cut, then?

Andrew: [laughs] That was Eric’s girlfriend.

Micah: Ahh.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 27, “The Centaur and the Sneak.” And we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary.

Micah: Hogwarts…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: … changes…

Eric: … direction…

Laura: … due…

Micah: … to…

Andrew: … Dumbledore’s…

Eric: … departure.

Andrew: Okay, nice.

Laura: Woo!

Andrew: Thank you for not…

Micah: That deserves an Exceeds Expectations, in my book.

Laura: I agree.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, well, we’re all sitting here recording on a Saturday morning. Hopefully everybody’s had breakfast or at least some coffee…

Andrew: I have.

Micah: … because that is where we’re going to start, in the Great Hall a few days after the sacking of Trelawney and then the quick save by Dumbledore. And there’s some conversation going on about the new, cool, hip professor that has been hired.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And it actually leads to a bit of an awkward conversation between Parvati and Hermione, particularly because Parvati is teasing Hermione about having quit Divination, and Hermione’s response comes across as being a bit insensitive. Wanted to get all of your thoughts on this, because I don’t think we’ve ever really seen Hermione describe another person or another creature – especially given all of her work with SPEW – in the way that she describes Firenze.

Eric: Yeah, she calls him a horse. She says, “I’m not interested.” [laughs] I’m like, “Whoa, okay. Just… whoa.”

Laura: I think also, Hermione doesn’t have very much patience for Parvati and Lavender because, mind you, the two of them were Professor Trelawney’s most dedicated students. They took her the most seriously; Hermione thought that it was all rubbish. And also, if I recall correctly, Parvati and Lavender really bought into the Rita Skeeter narrative in Goblet of Fire

Eric: Ohh.

Laura: … and so I think Hermione is just trying to shut them down.

Eric: Yeah, but she does so by saying, “I’ve never really liked horses,” and I’m thinking… again, to Andrew’s point, she works with house-elves. She’s all about seeing these other beings and magical creatures as equals, worthy of our respect, and that’s undercut by just her blatant… even Lavender says, “He’s not a horse, he’s a centaur!” And she says, “Either way, he’s still got four legs.” I know that Hermione’s middle name and Umbridge’s middle name are similar – one is Jean, one is Jane – but that’s way too close to Umbridge for me on Hermione’s part.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Add it to the Umbridge Suck count.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Do you think this could just be a moment for Hermione, though?

Andrew: Right.

Laura: Yes.

Micah: I mean, we all have them where we say things that maybe we don’t think through exactly what it is that we’re saying, and maybe at 15 she doesn’t think that what she’s saying is all that offensive. But I do think, given all of her work with SPEW and what she’s trying to do for house-elves, that it does come across as a bit discriminatory and insensitive that she is talking about the centaurs in this way, particularly Firenze. I also thought maybe she’s just a bit distracted because she’s reading the Daily Prophet, and you know that she’s always trying to find out what the latest news is, and maybe she just sees this as a distraction, as an annoyance. She doesn’t want to be bothered with Parvati. And to the point raised earlier, she’s also getting needled a bit about the fact that she gave up this class. I also just think she doesn’t think very highly of Divination to begin with, so I wonder if it’s more just an indictment on Divination than it is on Firenze. But again, she’s minimizing Divination by saying, “Oh, there’s a horse teaching it.”

Laura: Yeah. Well, also, the reason Parvati and Lavender are so excited is that Firenze is very handsome, right?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: They’re curling their eyelashes with their wands before the class, and Hermione is basically just like, “Okay, well, if you’re into horses, I guess that’s cool.”

[Micah laughs]

Laura: So I think she’s trying to slam them down a little, or shut them down a little bit. Still, though, this isn’t a great comment, but who among us has not said something off color and then later been like, “Oh, crap”?

Andrew: In the wise words of Miley Cyrus, “Everybody has those days,” and this is Hermione’s day.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: But I’m glad that we can come together, though, as adults and be like, “Huh, that was problematic,” because I’m sure that in the times I’ve read this chapter before, I’ve never really thought, “Oh, this is problematic” before.

Micah: Yeah. One other piece of information that we get from Lavender and Parvati is we learn that Trelawney has mentioned still wanting to leave the castle. She doesn’t want to be in the same place as Umbridge, given everything that’s happened; I’m sure she also feels a bit embarrassed, too, given that this happened in front of most of the school. But we all know that it’s actually really, really important, with everything that’s going on right now, that she stay at Hogwarts.

Eric: I just feel like Dumbledore isn’t really maybe forthcoming about the reasons why it’s imperative that she stay.

Andrew: I think – Micah, you mentioned, and I agree with this – Trelawney is just feeling very embarrassed and humiliated right now. She was humiliated in front of half the school right at the entrance to Hogwarts, and I don’t think I would want to show my face around other students right now. And unless Trelawney just locks herself in her little Hogwarts apartment, she’s going to be facing some embarrassment as she walks around the castle. I think she would also be afraid of running into Umbridge again and that awkward conversation.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. It just seems really reckless on Dumbledore’s part, not to point fingers, but for him not to impress upon her the need for her to stay, that she can still tell these students, “Oh, I’d really love to leave forever than stay here if she’s here, etc., etc.” Maybe she’s just venting, and it’s nice that she has this outlet in Parvati and Lavender. But yeah, I don’t know. It just seems like Dumbledore, once again, didn’t really convey to his closest subjects the real reasons that he has behind doing what he does.

Micah: And on top of that, he’s going to peace out at the end of this chapter.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Leaving Trelawney to fend for herself!

Micah: Exactly. And the rest of the school, for that matter. Eric, I’m going to let you take this next part, because you raise some really good points about how when we go into Divination, really, for the first time taught by Firenze, it’s a completely different experience from what we’ve seen throughout a lot of the Potter series up until this point.

Eric: Yeah, I really… on the latest reread of this chapter, I was so giddy, unnecessarily. It just randomly… I just couldn’t stop smiling while reading what they’ve done with this classroom 11 on the ground floor. So Harry and Ron are going to Divination; they’re going up the old staircase, and I think it’s Parvati that says, “How do you expect Firenze to climb that ladder? We’re down on the ground floor.” So they go to this classroom, and it’s been completely reworked. Harry knows it as one of these classrooms that they use sometimes, maybe occasionally, but not regularly, and it’s just a boring old classroom like we’re used to, except it’s not. They go in, and here’s the description from the book: “The classroom floor had become springily mossy and trees were growing out of it; their leafy branches fanned across the ceiling and windows, so that the room was full of slanting shafts of soft, dappled, green light. The students who had already arrived were sitting on the earthy floor with their backs resting against tree trunks or boulders, arms wrapped around their knees or folded tightly across their chests, looking rather nervous.” And then this place also has environmental controls. Firenze “swished his long palomino tail, raised his hand toward the leafy canopy overhead, then lowered it slowly, and as he did so, the light in the room dimmed, so that they now seemed to be sitting in a forest clearing by twilight, and stars emerged upon the ceiling. There were oohs and gasps, and Ron said audibly, ‘Blimey!'”

Laura: Ooh.

Eric: This is the kind of classroom that we always could have had throughout the years at Hogwarts, because it’s a magic school. This just really drove home to me… this is phenomenal and totally amazing and perfectly caters to the teacher, but we could have been, for years now, going to classrooms that were underwater; we could have… J.K. Rowling in this chapter really shakes up the variety of things.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, they go to the planetarium.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: Yeah, it’s very cool. I mean, it’s a very earthy classroom that sounds really interesting and peaceful to visit. It kind of reminds me of a Zen garden; it’s just missing a couple of waterfalls.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: But yeah, it sounds good. I mean, are there bugs in there with all these rocks and trees?

Micah: No.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: And can they eliminate bugs? Because I wouldn’t like that if there were bugs.

Micah: Not yet. It’s only the first use of the classroom, Andrew, so maybe over time there’ll be some additions.

Andrew: They’ll gather.

Micah: Yeah, exactly.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I thought for Firenze, this was really to make him feel comfortable and at home, because normally he’s in the Forbidden Forest.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Micah: So it’s really a replica, in many ways, of his natural environment. And I thought it was a nice kind of break, too, from all the serious stuff that’s been going on in this book, in a way. Even though we don’t get a whole lot of this throughout the series, it kind of is a throwback to Sorcerer’s Stone when you’re first introduced to the school, and maybe you’re learning about the Transfiguration classroom or the Charms classroom or Herbology greenhouses for the first time. I’m sure that J.K. Rowling made them seem extremely magical to us as readers in our maybe early teens. I don’t know; I didn’t go back and look at the descriptions exactly, but this definitely stands out as far as classrooms go.

Eric: Yeah, that’s what I wanted to point out about when they filmed it, they chose to film Hogwarts at real live colleges, Christ Church College and Oxford and all of these historic British castles and things like that, so I think we got more of a generic stone classroom kind of feel.

Micah: I tend to think that classrooms are reflective of those who are teaching the subject matter – obviously, that’s the case year after year with Defense Against the Dark Arts – but even in other classrooms. I mean, Potions, right, is down in the dungeons. That’s to me very much like Snape, right?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s dark and sad, just like Snape.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, exactly. There’s all these creatures in jars, and it’s very Snape, versus when Slughorn…

Andrew: Or you think about Trelawney’s classroom.

Micah: Yeah, Trelawney also. Yeah, it’s reflective of her personality, I think, and where she’s comfortable teaching.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: I was going to say, Slughorn is much different than Snape in terms of Potions, right? The whole experience for the students is much, much different. The location is different as well, I think, or am I making that up?

Eric: I think in the movie they move it up. It seems to have more natural light.

Micah: Do you think Ron and Harry FaceTimed Hermione? Be like, “Wish you were here.”

Andrew: “Look what you’re missing out on.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: So Firenze has a big mark on his chest that’s pretty noticeable to the students, and he is very upfront with them about two things: One is how he got that mark, and he talks about the fact that he was banished from the rest of the herd. And we have a flashback again to Sorcerer’s Stone with him saving Harry from Quirrellmort way back in Book 1; Harry remembers this. But he also gives his personal feelings as it relates to human Divination, or at least Divination being taught by humans, and you get a really nice difference of opinion here.

Andrew: Yeah. This was interesting because I read this as Trelawney is the dime a dozen fortune teller who just jumps to conclusions, doesn’t think anything through, and I’m thinking about how people on Twitter are so quick to judge, just to make a joke or just to cancel somebody immediately. Meanwhile, the centaurs, they’re thinking about things longterm. They’re not jumping to conclusions. They’re saying, “What we see in the stars may suggest something, but we don’t know for sure.” Trelawney is just like, “I see this? Well, Harry is dead tomorrow.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, the centaurs are also thinking bigger picture. Trelawney is a good example of how human beings like to take everything and make it about themselves, and the centaurs are like, “Actually, human beings are not the center of the universe. Y’all aren’t that important, and here’s the bigger picture. Here’s the larger scope of what’s going to happen, and your minor trials and tribulations aren’t really something that we’re concerned with.”

Eric: I mean, I wasn’t expecting an indictment of the former teacher. I wasn’t expecting an indictment against all of humanity in this chapter. But Firenze delivers it with a real panache. He’s real style about it.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I also thought that it was a pretty big indictment on Umbridge’s teaching style, too, because she’s very by the book, and “You need to follow what the Ministry says,” and I think the way Firenze teaches in this class, and the fact that he does offer up other options, or says straight out that what he’s offering doesn’t necessarily have to be the be-all end-all, I think, is a knock on her as well.

Eric: Yeah, I wonder if… I mean, Divination has always gotten a rap as being not a real class, but I really just wonder… because by the end of their lesson, they haven’t really figured any one thing out. Nobody makes a full and true prediction. Ron says, “He’s not definite about anything, is he?” and Firenze seems to be okay with that. What he seems to want to impress upon them is that no method of Divination is 100% accurate all the time, and they shouldn’t expect to really even be able to learn how to do it correctly in the two short months that they have left. I’m like, what kind of a class is that? That’s not standardized. You can’t test for that.

Andrew: I really liked that, though, because I thought it was a nice lesson about how there’s always more to learn.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: And that Firenze and the centaurs on a whole, they’re not egotistical. They don’t think their way is the only way. I think they want to take everybody’s perspective into consideration.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely.

Laura: Yeah. It is so interesting that we get this because we get this very heavily implied to us in Sorcerer’s Stone in Chapter 15, when Harry, Hermione, and Draco are serving their detention in the Forbidden Forest, and they come across Ronan and Bane, I believe it is, and Hagrid is trying to have a conversation with the two of them, and they both just stand there looking up at the sky, going, “Mars is bright tonight.” And Hagrid is like, “Yeah, we’ve heard.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: “Can we talk about something else? Have you seen what’s killing these unicorns?” And they’re very much not concerned with what’s killing the unicorns because, of course, they’re seeing the harbinger of war in the sky, and they’re like, “Okay, go focus on your little unicorn problem. There’s something bigger going on.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And Hagrid says, “Never try an’ get a straight answer out of a centaur. Ruddy star-gazers. Not interested in anythin’ closer’n the moon.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And it’s so interesting to get the human perspective on that, right? Because he’s like, “I have an immediate problem right here, right now, that I need help with,” and they’re like, “Yeah, there’s a giant wizarding war coming; we don’t really care.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But if they connected the dots, the unicorns to Voldemort to the war, maybe… that’s a perfect example of the fact that they’re not seeing necessarily the full picture. They may be seeing the bigger picture, but not the full picture, and I think that’s…

Eric: Not the forest through the trees?

Micah: Exactly. No pun intended.

Laura: I do wonder, though… I don’t know that they think it’s their place to try and prevent things from happening. I think they’re just seeing what’s going to happen, and they’re not trying to involve themselves or change outcomes.

Eric: Well, here’s where Firenze is just totally different than all the rest of the group: He does give straight answers, and he’s the one who tells Harry what’s going on with the unicorns in the forest. He specifically draws Harry to the conclusion of Voldemort being in the forest right as they speak in Book 1, so I think they are capable of being aware of the goings-on. Typically, they just don’t tend to concern themselves with human matters all the time, but Firenze is clearly of the opinion that the knowledge that the centaurs do possess, in limited quantities as it is, should be shared. He believes in a more worldly sharing of knowledge, kind of strategic, bettering everybody by bettering each other kind of world view.

Laura: Yeah, and I think hence why he ends up getting kicked out.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Because it very much seems like at least this particular community of centaurs are like, “Human problems are not really our problem.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No.

Laura: “Let them hash it out amongst themselves; we’re just going to chill back here in the forest… look at the sky…”

Micah: Right.

Andrew: Are centaurs the hippies of the wizarding world? That’s the impression I’m getting from this discussion.

Eric: [laughs] I don’t know.

Andrew: “Hey, man, it’s about the journey. One world, man.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Maybe Firenze.

Laura: Maybe we can ask J.K. Rowling. Go on Twitter.

Andrew: Is that our tweet to her this week?

Laura and Micah: Yes.

Eric: I’m glad you brought… I mean, I think Firenze, for his qualities, is a really good teacher. He seems completely willing to even talk about his own banishment. He just straightforward answers the questions, flat-out calls out Trelawney and what’s come before, and then does his own thing. I just find him to be a very genuine kind of teacher, the way Lupin was a very genuine kind of person.

Micah: Definitely. And there’s also a really cute moment, speaking of “Mars is bright tonight.” When Harry is looking up at the ceiling, there is a very quick mention of Mars winking back at him.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: “Ready for what’s coming? Wizarding war, here we go! Wink!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Amazing.

Micah: So a really good first lesson, but Firenze actually ends up holding Harry back after class. What a shock. We also didn’t mention that a lot of people were impressed with the fact early on in this class that Harry has a rapport with Firenze.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s pretty cool.

Micah: They’re boys. They go way back.

Andrew: [laughs] Way back.

Eric: Yeah, way back. As far back as you can go.

Micah: But he tells him that Hagrid should basically abandon what it is that he is working on right now, what he’s doing, and it’s very cryptic; there’s no specific information. But there’s clearly a very solid relationship between Hagrid and Firenze, and I’m wondering, was it Hagrid that saved him from the herd? Was it Dumbledore? What’s the great relationship here that exists between the two of them? Do we know?

Eric: Well, Firenze states… yes, yeah. I read ahead, and in the… I think in the next chapter, in one of them, Hagrid does say that he pulled Firenze away and administered the right medicine.

Andrew: We need to start reading ahead because half the time the answers are in literally just the next chapter. [laughs]

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: So Hagrid did save him on this particular occasion. But I think in general, the way Firenze says in this chapter, “I’ve always respected Hagrid for his appreciation of all the life in the forest,” and I think that’s it. Nail on the head right there. Hagrid is a kind soul who appreciates life, unlike the vast majority of humans that these centaurs have convinced themselves exist and often traipse into the forest. And so Hagrid is different. Firenze is… yeah, they have a respect.

Micah: Totally. And so Harry tries to relay this information during Care of Magical Creatures. He has a extremely difficult time doing so.

Andrew: Because of Umbridge.

Micah: Not much more to say there. But once the two of them finally are able to connect, Hagrid just ignores Harry. Basically says, “Nah, I’m gonna do what I want to do. Thanks, but no thanks.”

Eric: [laughs] You’ve got to love Hagrid. “Ahh, centaurs are a bit wacky.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “I don’t listen to those hippies.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But Harry also has no context to what he’s asking Hagrid either, so it’s not really easy for him to make an argument for him to just stop whatever it is that he’s doing. And Hagrid is pretty thick-headed, so I don’t really see him changing his mind, unless Dumbledore tells him straight up.

Andrew: This is actually more evidence that centaurs are hippies, because no non-hippies listen to hippies.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Andrew speaks from experience as a non-hippie.

Andrew: This is my theory that I’m bringing up all episode. This is my “Hermione wants to see somebody die.” Sorry, go ahead.

Micah: No, I just feel bad for Harry because he’s literally trying for weeks to get this information to Hagrid, and then when he finally does it, Hagrid is just like… [grunts]

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Just like that.

Laura: “Damn hippies.”

Micah: [laughs] And the reason why it’s so challenging is because Umbridge is there. And I know we talked about this on other episodes, but this is another example of Umbridge just stifling other teachers’ ability to do their jobs because of her physical presence. I know, Laura, you’ve talked about this in the past, and just how having the presence of an evaluator there, if they’re not doing it their job the right way, can be extremely disruptive.

Laura: Yeah, completely throws off the entire dynamic of the classroom.

Eric: But I mean, speaking of observers like Firenze, this comment coming from Firenze to Hagrid, “Your attempt is not working; he would do best to stop,” is the perfect, most cutting opinion. I think Hagrid knows immediately that Firenze is right; he’s just too stubborn to admit it. But the idea that an outsider, right – the centaurs, who usually keep to themselves – that all this stuff with Grawp that we don’t know yet, but that Hagrid is doing with Grawp, for Firenze to say “It isn’t working” means that these homebodies who keep to themselves, these hippies, have taken enough notice to be like, “You’ve got to… no, dude, of all the things that you do in this forest… no, this is just one step too far. We’re going to say something.”

Micah: I also just think it’s Firenze trying to return a favor for what Hagrid has done for him in saving him and healing him, and this is just his way of trying to be nice to somebody who has been nice to him, trying to offer him some advice. But we know, again, Hagrid’s personality, especially due to the fact that this is his family, he’s not just going to abandon taking care of his half-brother. So we move ahead a couple months later, and actually, the timeline speeds up quite a lot in these last couple of chapters. So we’re into April, and Dumbledore’s Army is beginning to work on more complex spells, on Patronuses, and this is a really great scene to read. And Eric, you mentioned here that what is Umbridge going to say when all the members of Dumbledore’s Army get Outstandings on their OWLs, given that they’ve been taught such mediocrity by her over the course of these last couple of months?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Harry has a minute to gloat there a little bit right before the end, right before it all…

Micah: Yeah, disaster strikes, and Dobby shows up. And Dobby is trying to relay information to Harry, but it’s very reminiscent of Chamber of Secrets where he starts to punish himself for the information that is being provided. And I wonder, if he is in fact a free elf, why is it that he feels the need to punish himself in this moment? Is it because he is working at Hogwarts and this is Hogwarts information? Is it because he’s somehow working for Umbridge, because she’s the High Inquisitor of the school, and he’s betraying her trust? What are your thoughts here?

Laura: Doesn’t he say that all the house-elves in the kitchens were told not to tell anyone? And I guess if he works at Hogwarts, then technically, if he’s given an order by somebody in charge at Hogwarts, he has to follow it, or he feels like he has to follow it. But it very quickly becomes apparent that that’s not totally true, because Harry is able to order him out of it, basically.

Micah: Right.

Laura: And Harry is like, “I order you not to hurt yourself.” Dobby is like, “Oh, thank you.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It’s very odd. I’ve always wondered about this scene, because I understand that the house-elves themselves, they agreed not to tell, but Dobby is a free elf; he can act of his own free will, so I just find it odd that he’s punishing himself in this moment.

Andrew: Well, maybe it’s just some leftover guilt, because we see him treat himself like this back in Chamber of Secrets. And this is maybe something you just don’t easily grow out of, revealing secrets and feeling guilty about it, so he’s just having a hard time with this free elf life.

Eric: Yeah. Old habits, as it were.

Andrew: Old habits die hard.

Micah: Yep. Well, we know what happens next. Umbridge finds out about the meeting of Dumbledore’s Army, she finds out about the Room of Requirement, she sends her Inquisitorial Squad after the members who are scurrying away like little rats in the hallway, and Draco tracks down Harry. All hell ensues from there, really. I don’t really feel good about a teacher awarding another student 50 points for tripping another student and catching them in the act of something.

Andrew: Well, yeah. I don’t see this in the Umbridge Suck count, so I’ll add this one.

Micah: Yeah, it needs to be added. So we end up in Dumbledore’s office. I’m actually surprised that Umbridge knows the password to get up there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Oh, and here’s another one to add to the suck count: She doesn’t knock on his door. She just barges right in.

Micah: Yeah, she just busts in.

Eric: [laughs] Well, I think she’s probably already been in there because she’s got the Minister for Magic.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, been in there tonight. Yeah, I imagine she’s been in there a couple other times as well.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: For unfortunate reasons.

Eric: But do we remember what we were feeling either the first time that we were reading this, or…? Because this is… I mean, something massive is about to go down, and I think that it may feel that way, but Umbridge taking him to Dumbledore seems like it would be… I mean, I was relieved, I think, on the most recent reread that she wasn’t just disciplining him herself.

Andrew: Yeah, and then not just… and of course, Umbridge isn’t the only one who’s there; Fudge is there as well, which is another big “Oh, bleep” moment. So yeah, this was scary, for sure. Harry’s big secret is about to be revealed.

Micah: It’s a bit mind-boggling to me, though, that they get this information from Marietta and then turn around and invite the Minister to come. What ultimately do they think they’re going to get out of this moment? I know they want to try and expel Harry, but even for that, does the Minister need to be present?

Eric: No.

Laura: I think the Minister wants to be present, because he views Harry and Dumbledore as having tried to undermine him for much of the last year. And Fudge, he’s very quickly losing his grip on power, so he’s nervous, so I think he wants to be there.

Micah: Well, it’s very reminiscent to the beginning of this book when Harry is put on this full scale trial. And he comes to Dumbledore’s office in this chapter, and you have the Minister; you have two Aurors in Kingsley and Dawlish. It’s this very grand scene that’s taking place for something that’s really not that big of a deal at the end of the day, which is a meeting of students in a school where they go to school and they should be allowed to meet when they want to.

Eric: Right.

Micah: So it’s just raising it to the next level.

Andrew: And Fudge was just humiliated by Harry because of this Quibbler interview…

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: … so I could see that being a reason he wants to be there as well.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Andrew: He wants to see Harry be punished after Harry’s big old interview in The Quibbler.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, way back at the beginning of the year, Umbridge felt so threatened by Harry Potter – Harry hadn’t done anything to her or even met her at that point – she felt so threatened that she sent the Dementors to go get him.

Andrew: Yeah. And Fudge has this line, too, about witnesses, and he wanted to throw that in Dumbledore’s face as well.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, God.

Andrew: So this is just a power trip for him, sitting in on this meeting in which Harry is exposed.

Eric: What I love about this is… I mean, when you step into Dumbledore’s office, you’re in his land, right? You’re in his territory. You’re in Dumbledore World now. And Dumbledore usually – and this is not an exception – has a grasp on what to do, and Harry, even though he can’t look at Dumbledore without wanting to kill him, is able to look in the general direction and get very crucial, very needed direction from Dumbledore as to what to do or say.

Micah: Right.

Eric: So there’s this wonderful moment where Harry is looking towards Dumbledore, and Dumbledore is looking near Harry, and he’s able to shake and nod to indicate to Harry what to do.

Micah: And Laura, I think you found a really awesome thread to connect between this moment and Fudge’s attitude towards Harry and a scene from Prisoner of Azkaban.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, you really get to see the shift in perspective that Fudge takes towards Harry. In Prisoner of Azkaban, he’s so protective of Harry. We get to see that whole scene where Fudge is coming up to the school to dine with Dumbledore, but beforehand he goes and gets drinks with McGonagall, Madam Rosmerta, and Hagrid, during which Harry overhears the story about Sirius Black, and Fudge is there to try and discuss how to better protect Harry. And at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, where Snape is trying to accuse Harry and Hermione of intervening or trying to have helped Sirius escape, Fudge says, “Ah, well, Snape, Harry Potter, we’ve all got a bit of a blind spot where he’s concerned.” And this is a complete switch to what we see in this chapter, where, as Harry and Dumbledore are trying to create this narrative for Fudge and the Ministry, he says, “Oh yes, let’s hear the latest cock-and-bull story designed to pull Potter out of trouble.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: He’s very much, Fudge, somebody who will blow with the prevailing wind, and that prevailing wind is his power, really, and so it’s whatever is going to help him stay in power. So when Harry Potter was convenient to the Ministry, Fudge was all about protecting him, but the second that Harry became any kind of liability or threat, Fudge is ready to throw him under the Knight Bus immediately.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I mean, Dumbledore and Harry are linked, and this chapter… even when they’re the farthest apart that they possibly can be from each other, emotionally or supportively, the two of them are linked in the Ministry’s eyes. And really, we could argue whether or not it’s… I mean, Harry is willing to tell the truth and Dumbledore is willing to sacrifice his headmastership over saving Harry or keeping Harry in school in this chapter; it’s just that he nods at the carpet to tell Harry not to lie. Really, just the connection between Harry and Dumbledore, I feel like it’s come back. I was missing it recently while reading, and now I’m like, “Oh, it’s back.” It’s stronger than ever. They understand each other.

Micah: Right. And I think it’s highly likely that Dumbledore was planning to leave the school at some point anyway; I don’t think that he believes that he’s going to be in power at Hogwarts for the entirety of this school year. I think just given everything that’s been going on with Umbridge, he’s obviously going to do his best to stay in that position, but I think that while maybe he didn’t anticipate this happening, he knows that his time is somewhat limited anyway, and he probably has had an escape plan planned for quite some time.

Laura: Agree.

Micah: Eric, you mentioned how Dumbledore is giving Harry these signs throughout the course of this conversation, and I thought it was really great writing on the part of J.K. Rowling, the fact that Harry is able to pick up on these cues. But after a few minutes, Umbridge is like, “Enough of this,” and she brings in her witness for the prosecution, Marietta Edgecombe, who is hiding her face because Hermione did a little jinx on those coins, and for anybody who would let slip information about Dumbledore’s Army, they got messed up good.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I will say, from a writing standpoint this works extremely cleverly. Marietta initially came to Umbridge, and Umbridge actually… this is the biggest first mistake that Umbridge makes. She tells the room exactly what Marietta told her, I think maybe even before bringing Marietta in. But she says that Marietta came to her, that there had been a meeting that she already knew about in the Hog’s Head, but that this was a secret group, and it’s operating at Hogwarts, and they were meeting tonight. And as soon as she did that, her face erupts in these, I assume, very painful boils, spelling out the word “SNEAK.” And now Marietta is not only in pain, but there’s an element of, I want to say, vanity, that due to what has happened, the shock of it makes her want to go silent, and she’s fearful that if she speaks more, more will happen to her.

Andrew: Right. Well, yeah, I mean, I think that’s the whole point of it, right? The whole point of this hex was for Hermione… or was to prevent anybody from coming clean about Dumbledore’s Army. And while it didn’t completely work in Marietta’s situation, it did at least half work because, as you’re saying, she’s afraid of sharing more information. And I think she’s also just really embarrassed right now; her face looks like crap and she’s in front of Dumbledore and Harry and Umbridge and the Minister of Magic. I mean, this is just a very embarrassing situation to be in.

Micah: True. And I don’t think that Hermione went too far.

Andrew: No.

Micah: I think the members understand the severity of what this information would mean if it did get out into the wrong hands, and so there needs to be a certain level of punishment if you’re the one responsible for giving out that information.

Andrew: Exactly.

Eric: I mean, yeah, I’m not sure these scars ever go away, though. [laughs]

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: Well, she deserves them forever.

Eric: Ever. Ever! This is a school society here, so this is…

Laura: I can’t really see Hermione doing something that would be permanent.

Eric: In the brief amount of time that they’ve been able to examine them in this chapter, Umbridge, Madam Pomfrey can’t figure out how to fix them, so maybe it’s just a less common… I could be misremembering, but I’m pretty sure Marietta has the mark of this for quite some time.

Andrew: She does. The following year, there’s still some blemishes on her face, so maybe kind of like acne scars, I’m thinking?

Eric: Yeah, which…

Laura: Does she really?

Eric: Those are around forever.

Andrew: According to the wiki, the following year she still has some scars, and she’s wearing thick makeup to cover them up.

Eric: Geez.

Laura: Oh my God, Hermione.

Micah: Damn.

Andrew: Laura, this is the Hermione that called Firenze a horse.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true.

Andrew: This is a whole new Hermione these days.

Micah: Not a good chapter for Hermione. This is what leads to her, Andrew, eventually becoming a serial killer.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: This is how it starts.

Andrew: Just wait until Book 9.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: So I love the fact that what’s happened to Marietta gives the plausibility that the reason she’s not responding is because she’s vain or whatever, but I obviously hate the severity of what Hermione has done, the fact that it’s very not reversible. But it turns out they don’t stop there. During the course of this interrogation of Marietta, Harry feels a strange wind go by, and he sees, while they’re interrogating her, Marietta’s eyes go weirdly blank, and he’s able to piece together during this period of time that there is a Memory Charm being performed. Not even the Imperius Curse, which you can make somebody shake their head or nod, depending on what questions you’re being asked. But Kingsley, it’s pieced together, is modifying Marietta’s memory to, I guess, remove all the times that they met. The issue at point is whether or not there was ever multiple meetings of this group between the time that they met in Hog’s Head and this evening, when she reported to Umbridge that there would be a meeting. And Kingsley has kind of gone the hard route of erasing all the memories of all the times they met in order to get Marietta to nod or shake her head.

Andrew: In your opinion, it was the hard route.

Eric: Well, I think it’s…

Andrew: We’re going to have a debate.

Eric: Yeah. Oh, are we?

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, we are.

Eric: [laughs] I just think wouldn’t it be easier – to get her to shake her head or nod, I mean – using the Imperius Curse? I know the Imperius Curse is Unforgivable, but this is a lot of memory modification to be doing on the sly here.

Andrew: Okay, okay, well, save your arguments for the debate.

Eric: I wasn’t arguing the debate things; I’m just saying I think that it’s a little bit much for Kingsley. I think what we’re going to argue in the debate is whether or not this was fair to Marietta.

Andrew: All right, well, why don’t we kick off this debate, then? So are we okay with Kingsley modifying Marietta’s memory? And Micah and I are going to defend it being okay; Eric and Laura are going to defend it not being okay. I think Eric and Laura should start because apparently something happened in their Twitter DMs, and I’m super curious about this, so let’s hear it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I don’t think it was Twitter; I think it was Slack.

Andrew: Oh, I heard DMs and I just immediately thought Twitter.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We were toying with the idea of doing this debate, and after a couple days, nobody joined me on the side of “This was wrong,” so I decided to reach out to Laura over on Slack.

Andrew: I see.

Eric: And I was like, “Hey, I know you said…” Because Laura had been like, “Put me where you want me. Anything… either side is good with me.” And I was like, “Laura, nobody is volunteering for my side. Will you join me?” After toying it around, we were like, “Yeah, this would be great.” We came up with some ideas. We talked about our reasons that we’re about to argue.

Andrew: Let’s hear it.

Eric: Well, we both at the same time then said… or Laura said, “This will be fun,” and we both at the same time said, “Team Marietta’s agency.”

Laura: Yeah, it was really weird. We typed it at the same time and sent it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So we’re Team Marietta’s agency, and we’re here to say not giving Marietta the choice to nod or shake her head based on… to further come forward, by removing her memory was a blatant overreach of what is right and what should have happened, on the part of Kingsley, guided by Dumbledore.

Laura: Yeah, there’s a lot going on here, and ultimately, modifying her memory was just a gross invasion to clean up for poor planning.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: First, I would just like to call out that Dumbledore is fine with calling out manhandling of his students when it suits him. He is prepared to fight Umbridge for shaking Marietta, and yet he’s totally fine with an Order member wiping her memory, which I would argue is worse than being shaken by a professor. Furthermore, this is kind of a mess of Dumbledore’s own making. By ignoring Harry all year and letting Umbridge’s reign of terror go unchecked, he put the students in a position where they felt like they had to form a secret society, and this was bound to go wrong. Look at the fact that Marietta’s mother works for the Ministry. Harry and Hermione apparently didn’t do the appropriate amount of vetting before they decided who could be in their little secret society. This all comes back to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore’s need to keep people in the dark until it’s convenient for him to bring them into the know on what’s going on. And also, I don’t know how good Kingsley is at Memory Charms. Eric, do we ever get any kind of justification for his abilities here?

Eric: I mean, what if he screws up? But I’m even here to say, what if he doesn’t? He’s still removing defensive magical lessons and all that it entails to be taught and trained in this past year from Marietta’s mind. He’s making her super, super weak to defensive magic. What if she goes to fight in the Battle of Hogwarts in a couple years’ time and she doesn’t have all this training that she’s been getting at the DA meetings and dies because she can’t defend herself, because Kingsley removed all of those lessons from her mind?

Laura: Yeah. Or again, I mean, what if he’s bad at this? We know that not everybody’s good at performing Memory Charms. Look at Lockhart; we’ve seen what happens when somebody misfires a Memory Charm. You can be permanently disfigured mentally.

Eric: Not to mention the time constraint that Kingsley is under.

Laura: Yes, exactly. So what if she was permanently damaged in some way by this? We never really find out what the long-term results of this are, which is disappointing, I would say. But ultimately, I just don’t see why a child should be subject to these kinds of risks based on the misplaced priorities of adults.

Andrew: All right, I’ve heard enough of this.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Micah, it’s time for you and I to step in.

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: Do you want to start? Or shall I?

Micah: You can start and I’ll drop the hammer at the end.

Andrew: Okay, cool.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: The Micah mic drop.

Laura: The Thor hammer.

Andrew: So first of all, I will respond to some of the points that were just made. I mean, some of them were outrageous…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … but some of my comments before you two started blabbering: Desperate times call for desperate measures. Marietta screwed up enough by revealing to Umbridge what went on, so it was time for Kingsley and Dumbledore to take matters into their own hands. They can’t trust her anymore! They need to take control of this situation. They can’t risk her screwing up any further, so it was time to wipe her memory. And first of all, you two said wiping her memory. Her memory was not wiped; it was modified. It was just tweaked a little bit, that’s all.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And the debate here is not whether or not Dumbledore’s Army needed to exist. You two got into that too for some reason. Dumbledore’s Army did need to exist, but that’s besides the point. Kingsley did need to modify her memory. Also, this point about Marietta losing valuable Defense lessons: She can be retrained. She learned them once; she can learn them again. Harry loves teaching Dumbledore’s Army; I’m sure he’d be happy to teach her again. Actually, he probably wouldn’t teach her, because now he hates her.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But anyway. Also, “What if Kingsley screwed up?” Are you serious? He’s one of the most badass characters in the Harry Potter series. He didn’t screw up modifying her memory. He did it right, and she can learn these lessons again, and they needed to take matters into their own hands. Thank you.

Micah: Yes. I would echo those sentiments, Andrew, and note the fact that Kingsley himself becomes Minister for Magic not too long from now.

Andrew: Boom!

Micah: So I would hope that he is accomplished at some very basic, basic Memory Charms. As it relates to Marietta, look: Be loyal. If you were loyal, none of this would have happened in the first place, so you put yourself in this position to begin with.

Andrew: Amen.

Micah: And as far as modifying memories, clearly she didn’t want to be in these meetings anyway, so she’s not going to miss them all that much.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Right? I mean, if she wanted to be there… Cho dragged her along to these meetings. We saw the facial expressions she gave Harry. She didn’t want to be in the Room of Requirement; she didn’t want to be taking these lessons from Harry. So we’re sitting here talking about, “Oh, they modified her memory.” Well, I think she’s probably happier, to be honest with you, that she doesn’t have to remember these moments, because she didn’t want to be there in the first place. So she’s not losing anything, to be honest. And how inept, how unqualified are Umbridge, Fudge, Dawlish, that they don’t even recognize what’s been done? I mean, come on. They don’t know that this poor child’s memory has been modified? How unqualified are they in their respective positions to not notice a basic Memory Charm? So I’m fine with what Kingsley does. He saves the moment. Like Andrew said at the top, desperate times call for desperate measures.

Laura: Yeah, but desperation is the theme of the wizarding government. And I’m glad that you brought up the fact that Kingsley later becomes Minister of Magic; his predecessors don’t exactly make it seem like a position that’s filled by terribly qualified people. This further calls into question his ability to perform a Memory Charm for me.

Eric: I mean, he’s also doing it under a time constraint. You can get the most accomplished wizard, and if you give them a very small window in which to work, things could go wrong. It’s not a knock against his ability; it’s a knock against the fact that he’s removing literally six months of lessons right in front of everybody’s eyes. The fact that Fudge or Umbridge don’t recognize a Memory Charm being performed right in front of them also lets me believe that there could be a easier solution. Just give Marietta the Imperius Curse, have her shake her head or nod depending on which questions are being asked, and the result is the same without this lasting damage on Marietta. I think it’s dangerous to suggest that loyalty is the most valuable thing. I think we currently have a government guy who really likes loyalty, values that above all, in our administration in the US. See how well that has worked for the law and justice. But I think that Dumbledore values choice above all. “It is our choices, Harry, far more than abilities to determine who we are.” Marietta is not being given the choice.

Micah: Marietta made the choice to go to Umbridge, talking about choices.

Eric: But she should be given the choice to come forward again and tell the truth. Dumbledore is removing Marietta’s agency because he can’t handle the choice that she’s about to make.

Andrew: Why do you keep saying that they should put her under an Imperius Curse and also say that she needs to be able to make her own choices? That’s taking away her agency.

Eric: It still is. Both instances are taking away her agency, and would, in my argument, be unacceptable, but I’m talking about in terms of limiting the damage caused by Marietta. What Kingsley does is even more unconscionable, I think, because he uses the Memory Charm.

Laura: Well, and also, none of this would have ever had to happen if Dumbledore were speaking to Harry, acknowledging Harry’s existence, and if he weren’t letting Umbridge continue to run roughshod over the school and its institution that it stands for. The fact that he continues to let all of this go on directly leads to this culmination of events, and it didn’t have to happen. Marietta never had to have anything to tell Umbridge.

Micah: In one wave of his wand, Kingsley saves the wizarding world. What would have happened if Marietta told the truth there? Harry would have gotten expelled. Harry would have gotten outside of Hogwarts. Voldemort would have shown up; he would have killed him. He would have been exposed to everything going on. The series would have been over in five books.

Laura: [laughs] What would have happened if Dumbledore had just been upfront with Harry, and if he hadn’t let Umbridge spend the whole year physically abusing the students?

Micah: That’s not the debate question.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The question is are we okay with Kingsley modifying her memory?

Laura: But it relates to the debate question, right?

Eric: In summary…

Laura: Kingsley would have never needed to modify her memory if Dumbledore had been an upstanding, responsible adult. He’s not. End of story.

Andrew: You guys are so desperate; you keep bringing in Dumbledore. Let it go.

Micah: All right, I think we could wrap it up. If anybody has any closing thoughts, I think we can wrap it up. But I will say, I do appreciate these last two debates, arguing in defense of Umbridge and then now arguing to remove somebody’s agency and their ability to have to tell the truth.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It’s true. We got you guys, and you guys have had the hard positions both times.

Andrew: We will create polls on social media, and we can hear what listeners think. Who won the debate? Let us know.

Micah: And remember, who wins the debate should not be about who is “right,” but about who makes the best argument.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Just going to throw that out there.

Andrew: And remember the original question: Are we okay with Kingsley modifying her memory? Don’t get bogged down by these Dumbledore talking points that the other side were going on and on about.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, man. You’re over here, “the other side; my opponent…”

Andrew: “Those people.”

Laura: Turning into a politician.

Andrew: [laughs] Miss Tee and Mr. Scull make some very good points, but they’re wrong!

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: But I love how we do get an insight into – stepping away from the debate – an insight into the justice system. Umbridge gave Willy Widdershins a reduced or nil sentence for coming forward and reporting the first meeting in the Hog’s Head, and I think McGonagall, who’s in this room, even calls out, “Well, it’s great for this insight into the justice system,” and it’s just… Umbridge has been using the law to really cheat and achieve her particular personal vendetta against Harry all year.

Andrew: Yep.

Micah: It also makes me wonder, though, why it took them this long to catch Dumbledore’s Army, because if she did, in fact, have that information, going way back to their first meeting, it seems like she hasn’t been too focused on what they’ve been doing.

Eric: Right.

Micah: And I also think it’s a little bit ridiculous to assume – even though this is the argument that Dumbledore is trying to present – that that group hasn’t met since their meeting in the Hog’s Head. Tonight was the first meeting? We’re talking five months later.

Andrew: Right, no way.

Eric: What were they waiting for all this time? But this is what Dumbledore has to work with, right? He can only… he is limiting… he’s basing his entire argument based on the facts that Umbridge let slip, that she dictates the argument that Dumbledore makes inadvertently, because that’s what he has to work with. All he can do is manipulate the facts that she already has, just like he points out that them meeting in the Hog’s Head was not strictly against the rules, because it wasn’t until the next day or the next week that she made it illegal in her Educational Decree. Just like that, he’s able to manipulate things so that Harry wasn’t breaking the law. I guess Dumbledore’s whole thing is to keep Harry in school and, to your guys’ point earlier, safe from Voldemort.

Micah: Yeah, certainly having him being there assists in Umbridge probably not finding out about this, or at least finding the group until tonight. I know we did talk a lot about this already, but the fact that Umbridge puts her hands on Marietta… I actually made the comment – this would have been good for you to use in your debate, Eric, Laura – that Umbridge only puts her hands on Marietta because Kingsley has taken her agency and she doesn’t have the ability to naturally respond. This is a moment where Dumbledore gets really angry, and understandably so, but I personally don’t think that he can be angry with this moment because he caused it.

Andrew: Well…

Eric: Yeah, Umbridge is not getting the answer she wants. That’s why she shakes Marietta, is because Marietta seems to be so moved by fear that she isn’t giving Umbridge the answers that she wants.

Andrew: But I guess Dumbledore just did not expect Umbridge to start actually shaking Marietta, and I do like that Dumbledore stands up and yells at her and says to stop “manhandling” Marietta.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I also thought this was pretty good evidence that Dumbledore does not know about what’s going on in Umbridge’s detentions, because if he’s having this reaction to Umbridge simply shaking Marietta, I think he would have an equally visceral reaction towards Umbridge’s detention style. So in a way, it’s nice to know that Dumbledore doesn’t know, because if he did know and was letting it happen, those detentions, I would have a big problem with Dumbledore.

Eric: That’s a really good point. I think, too, the shaking of Marietta by a teacher would, I think, overrule the Memory Charm that’s currently being performed. I think that high stress would take her out of it. I think that’s the worry that’s written in the book, the way that she almost seems to become lucid and then falls back into it. I think that’s what Dumbledore is objecting to over anything else, the fact that what he’s surreptitiously allowing Kingsley to currently do might be interrupted. I don’t think he actually cares about Marietta at all.

Andrew: That’s an interesting idea. Also, he couldn’t just sit there while Umbridge is shaking her. He had to do something.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, I’m surprised others didn’t step in and try and take her off of Marietta. Again, I don’t know how aggressive the shaking was, but you would think McGonagall, possibly even Kingsley, would have intervened there. Again, it’s an adult and a child here. But finally, the truth comes out. Andrew, would you like to read this quote from Dumbledore?

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Well, the game is up… Would you like a written confession from me, Cornelius – or will a statement before these witnesses suffice?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I was really embarrassed for Dumbledore in this moment, because he’s admitting to recruiting teenagers. This dude is over 100 years old and he’s working with teens? That is so embarrassing and pathetic to me. [laughs]

Eric: Teens are cool! Teens are hip! Teens are the future!

Andrew: Teens are a hundred years younger than he is, and he’s working with them. It’s creepy.

Eric: They’re the future, Andrew. Teens are the future. No.

Andrew: And to Fudge, it looks like this is the best he’s got? A bunch of teenagers. It’d be one thing if he’s working with adults, like he actually is in the Order of the Phoenix, but in Fudge’s eyes, he’s just working with kids! This is so lame.

Micah: Right, to…

Laura: But this was actually Fudge’s worst nightmare, though.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: That Dumbledore is working against him, yes. I don’t know about that Dumbledore and kids are working against him.

Laura: No, doesn’t Sirius or Lupin tell them earlier on in the book that Fudge thinks that Dumbledore is recruiting an army at Hogwarts?

Micah: Yep.

Eric: Yeah, that’s why they named it Dumbledore’s Army to begin with. But what I love about it is this whole confession comes from just the tiny little fact that on the piece of paper, it says “Dumbledore’s Army,” and in doing him that tribute, in naming the group after him, it enables him to then really live up to Fudge’s worst nightmare in front of Fudge. I’m sure he relishes every moment of shocked reaction that we see on Fudge’s face, and we as the readers do, too, because this is his worst fear. But it’s all because at the very, very last minute, when Dumbledore looks down at the paper that Pansy Parkinson went and grabbed, he sees that little bit of thing, and immediately the complete end game comes completely clean.

Andrew: He’s also probably so moved by the fact that they named their group after him that he wants to defend them further. But another question I wanted to ask you guys is do you think Dumbledore knew about Dumbledore’s Army in advance of this night?

Eric: That’s a real question. My instinct is no.

Laura: Well, I mean, Mundungus also overheard the meeting at the Hog’s Head, and that’s how Mrs. Weasley and some other Order members found out about it.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So I wouldn’t be surprised if Dumbledore knew about that too and had his suspicions about what the students might be doing.

Andrew: Right. That’s the one way I feel like he would know, because maybe Aberforth overheard and then relayed what he heard back to Albus.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Otherwise, I’m not so sure. I think it’s very cool to think Dumbledore learned about it during this night in his office and just sprang to action, came up with a plan really quick.

Eric: I agree.

Micah: Yeah, it seems kind of farfetched that he would have been able to come up with a plan this quickly, but he is extremely intelligent. I would have thought if he really knew about this, though, he would have put some protection around the meetings themselves without the kids knowing about it, because why allow this to happen? Why allow them to get caught? So it’s tough. I don’t know the answer to that question, but yeah, it’s very quick on your feet type of thinking. “Dumbledore’s Army; it’s my directive to Harry and to these other kids to form an army against you.” It really is, though, to Fudge’s point when Laura quoted him earlier, it really is a cock-and-bull story that Dumbledore is coming up with here.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And this goes to the point earlier about them not being able to recognize the fact that Marietta has had her memory altered. They’re just so… they’re wearing blinders, right? They only want to hear what they want to hear in this moment, and that is that Dumbledore has been rallying an army to work against the Ministry. That’s all that they want to get out of this moment, and Dumbledore gives it to them.

Eric: Yeah, Percy almost pees himself with giddiness taking down Dumbledore’s statement. It’s pretty annoying.

Micah: Yeah, but one thing that Dumbledore does say before he departs to Fudge is… he says that he’s going to regret his decision. And I actually wondered – and I know we have an email here – and is there actual payoff to this statement between Dumbledore and Fudge, or was this just kind of forgotten about by J.K. Rowling?

Andrew: Yeah, so let me read this email first. This is from Laura of New Zealand.

“During the Dumbledore’s office scene, when Dumbledore is about to escape, he says, ‘I am not leaving to go into hiding. Fudge will soon wish he’d never dislodged me from Hogwarts, I promise you.’”

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Laura says,

“I can still remember reading this line for the first time and immediately imagining all the badass shit Dumbledore was going to get up to after leaving. But in reality, he’s literally never heard from again until the Ministry scene, with the exception of Umbridge mentioning once or twice that the Ministry is looking for him. I don’t think the line was referring to all the stuff Dumbledore goes on to do in Book 6 because he says ‘Fudge will SOON wish,’ implying shit’s going to go down pretty quickly. And if he didn’t have time to get his plans in place before the Ministry scene, why would Jo include the line at all? Anyway, I have always been bothered by the lack of payoff from this line and I’m glad to finally have the chance to air my grievances with you guys! Thanks for such an amazing show and everything you do.”

Andrew: Yeah, that is a great point. You read that and you’re like, “Oh, man, Dumbledore is about to crack the whip. He is going to go crazy. He’s talking about breaking out of Azkaban, potentially. It’s Dumbledore gone wild,” and he doesn’t do anything!

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I wonder… because we know that earlier on in the series, Fudge relied on Dumbledore a lot. Fudge used to write to Dumbledore all the time seeking counsel.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I wonder if this is what Dumbledore is referring to, the idea that Fudge will actually have shot himself in the foot by losing somebody like Dumbledore, in the event that Fudge realizes, “Oh, I’ve kind of messed up. I need to get Umbridge out of Hogwarts.” Now he doesn’t have that ally to fall back on if he decides to revisit his position in the midst of all of this.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a great point. And I thought as well, could it also just be that Fudge is going to fall at the end of this book, right? He’s going to lose his position as Minister, and I think that could, in part, be what Dumbledore is talking about, that “You’re going to regret your decision, you’re going to see that Voldemort is going to come back, and you’re going to pay as a result of that.”

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Eric: Yeah, I think that whatever Dumbledore is planning… unless he did a bunch of guerrilla attacks that discredited the Ministry or something. Once Fudge loses his job, I think Dumbledore feels like that’s apt punishment, and the public outcry that ensues. And it’s really, I think, the public outcry that ousts Fudge, more so than the fact that he himself was taking a different position.

Micah: Yeah. So Dumbledore makes his great escape from Hogwarts, and I remember the scene from the movie. It was pretty well done, right? Fawkes with the assist.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it was an iconic scene from the movies.

Micah: Yeah, and Kingsley’s line about Dumbledore having style, even though in this particular chapter, it’s actually Phineas Nigellus Black who makes the comment.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: Because Kingsley is off looking for Dumbledore, knowing full well he’s not going to be able to find him.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: But what do we make of this moment? It kind of leaves you feeling a bit empty. I know that Dumbledore talks to Harry a little bit, tells him to practice Occlumency. Before he leaves, Harry feels the angered… he’s having a mix of emotions.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But the end of the chapter felt a bit empty to me, though, too, right? Because now… we very rarely have been in a position where Dumbledore has not been at Hogwarts.

Andrew: Right, and Harry and Dumbledore have, in a way, lost during this scene. And Harry is feeling really embarrassed that he was hiding this secret army from Dumbledore, I think, and that’s one of the reasons Harry feels the way he does by the end of this chapter.

Micah: Yeah, I totally agree. You don’t know what’s going to happen, and I’m actually surprised that Harry doesn’t get a harsher punishment. Dumbledore assumes all the responsibility here, but we know that Harry and Dumbledore – to your point earlier, Andrew – they’re connected, so why is Harry allowed to even stay at Hogwarts? I’m not clear on that either.

Andrew: Well, because Dumbledore has taken all the blame. “This was me.” I mean, he could have pushed it further; he could have said, “I made these kids join me,” to try and completely clear Harry, but he didn’t need to go that far.

Eric: Well, I think Umbridge is focused on the fact that she’ll be High Inquisitor now, or she’ll replace the… she’s focused on the benefits that she’s going to get. Nobody was expecting the golden goose, Dumbledore himself, to come out and say, “I did this.”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: And so everyone is forgiving Harry’s transgressions because they’ve gotten a much bigger prize.

Andrew: Yep, exactly.

Laura: Dumbledore even says this; he’s like, “This is a bit like trying to find a Knut, but actually finding a Galleon.”

Eric: And we know from our recent Quizzitch that there are 29 Knuts to a Sickle, and 17 Sickles per Galleon. That’s like 493 Knuts.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Wow. Good for you, Eric.

Andrew: Fudge is rich.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: All right, let’s move on to the Umbridge Suck count. We’ve got a lot this week.

Eric: [laughs] This may be the most that we’ve done in one week.

Micah: I think it is. Or it’s close. What do we got, seven here? Yeah, what a shock. Seven.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: First of all, preventing Harry from easily talking to his friend Hagrid.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Still shadowing every Care of Magical Creatures class.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Sending and recruiting Slytherin students to do her dirty work for her.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: We came up with this one earlier: awarding Draco 50 points for catching Harry. That’s just mean.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: And I think she gives him detention, too, doesn’t she? Or am I making that up? I don’t know. She’s done that so many times.

Andrew: Yeah. She doesn’t knock on Dumbledore’s door when she enters. That’s just rude.

Micah: Rude.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Rude, rude, rude. Also, loosening Willy’s sentence in exchange for information on Harry; that’s just wrong.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: And then laying hands on Marietta, or as Dumbledore said, “manhandling her.”

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: And the new total is… [laughs] 69.

Eric: Nice.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, let’s move on to MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Harry for being willing to take one for the team, even after Dumbledore started confessing. I would have been like, “Dumbledore, please. You can take the blame all you want.” But Harry was willing to take the blame for it, and that takes courage, and I really admired that.

Eric: I agree.

Laura: That is the Slytherin in you, for sure.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I’m going to give it to Dumbledore. I mean, wow, man, way to show up for a meeting. He really mastered the situation he was presented with. And also for building Firenze’s new classroom, making him feel at home.

Micah: I gave it to any portrait that flipped off Fudge.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There’s a brief mention of that in the chapter, and I’m all for it.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Dobby. If Dobby hadn’t warned them at the time, it would have been way worse. So many more students would have been implicated.

Andrew: It’s true.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 27, “Dumble-Damn, He’s Got Style.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 27, “Confessions of a Hogwarts Headmaster.”

Micah: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 27, “You CAN Apparate at Hogwarts.”

Andrew: Now, is that a reference to Fantastic Beasts? Or are you saying that Dumbledore Apparated in the scene?

Micah: Yeah, that’s more of what I was saying.

Andrew: I don’t think he did, though. But whatever.

Micah: What do you think he did? Turn into Fawkes?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, that one.

Laura: It was some special phoenix magic.

Micah: He was really hanging from the chandelier.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Nobody knew. Nobody noticed.

Andrew: No, he’s got a bathroom in the back of his office, and he just flushed himself down the toilet.

Micah: Actually… all right, if we’re debating the title, I’ll go with something Laura said, which I thought was really good: “Fudge’s Worst Nightmare.”

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Laura: There you go. And I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 27, “I’m a Bad Bitch; You Can’t Take Me.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion or maybe a question about next week’s chapter, Chapter 28, sort of like how Laura from New Zealand had a question that she submitted in advance, submit it to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also record a voice memo using the Voice Memo app on your phone and send it to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We love to hear from you, and by the way, we do read all of your feedback, so thanks to everybody who does take the time to write in.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: Who retrieves the list of Dumbledore’s Army members for Umbridge? We mentioned earlier in our chapter discussion, it was in fact Pansy Parkinson who ran into the Room of Requirement and grabbed the list while all that chaos was happening. Ugh, I just hate that person.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That person’s not great. So actually got a few wrong answers, but the correct answers were submitted by Erika, LessThanStace, Tori Tesla, and Jason King, as well as Caleb McReynolds, who answered classic Jeopardy style. Congratulations to all the winners of Quizzitch. Next week’s question: What are the three spells that James Potter casts on Severus Snape, besides Levicorpus, inside Snape’s worst memory?

[Quizzitch music ends]

Micah: Timed that perfectly.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Submit it on Twitter using the hashtag Quizzitch.

Eric: This is a real hard one I don’t expect anybody to get, but “Snape’s Worst Memory” is the next chapter, which is amazing.

Andrew: It’s a big one.

Eric: I’ve got to say, from this point forward, dude, all the chapters are just massive hits. They’re just so exciting.

Andrew: Massive hits. Massive J.K. Rowling hits. These are her Born to Runs. Don’t forget, we are offering patrons a special T-shirt, the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt, available if you pledge at the Dumbledore’s Army level or higher and stay pledged for three months or more. We are offering the shirt in two colors, in two cuts, with a Muggle crest, with the MuggleCast tag imprinted inside of it, and with our birth year on the shoulder. It’s a really awesome shirt. And by the way, we’re partnered with a printing and shipping company this year, so everybody’s going to get a tracking number once their shirt ships, which is really helpful as well, so you know exactly where it is.

Micah: Andrew.

Andrew: So pledge $5… what?

Micah: Does it say “Née 2005”?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, it says “Est. 2005.”

Micah: Oh.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Pledge $5 or more per month, and in addition to getting that T-shirt, you will get access to our recording studio, so you can hear us record live each Saturday or Sunday morning. You also get a personalized video “Thank you” message from one of the four of us, and you will get access to bonus MuggleCast and all kinds of other things. Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you. Sign up, support, pledge before June 30 to be eligible for the T-shirt. Woo!

Micah: Nice.

Andrew: I’m extra punchy right now because I’ve got to pee. Okay, thanks, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Goodbye, everybody.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #463

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #463, Umbridge’s Quibbles (OOTP 26, Seen and Unforeseen)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

[pause]

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah. Sorry, I didn’t know what to do there, Andrew. Where’s Eric?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Eric is off for his birthday.

Micah: Oh, that’s right. He threw me for a loop, though. I wasn’t expecting to go second.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re joined by Pat again this week. Hi, Pat. Welcome back to the show.

Pat: Hey, everyone.

Andrew: Subbing for Eric this week. On today’s episode, we will be discussing Chapter 26 of Order of the Phoenix, “Seen and Unforeseen,” and we also have some Muggle Mail. But first, just wanted to let everybody know we did our third installment of Quizzitch Live on Sunday. We’re actually recording this episode on Saturday, but I assume Quizzitch Live 3 went really well.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, yeah. It was fantastic.

Andrew: Quizzitch 3: The Prisoner of Knowledge. Now, Eric will be here for that. He said, “I just want one MuggleCast thing to do this weekend instead of two,” so he picked Quizzitch.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, it’s his birthday, to be fair. It was on Thursday, so he can have the week off. And we get Pat, so I mean, honestly, it’s a win-win.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: Aww.

Andrew: Eric gets a break; Pat comes on the show. It’s great.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and speaking of Eric, he had that idea for the Neville Longbottom playlist, and we now have over 60 songs in the playlist on Spotify, so we’ll have another link in the show notes if you want to check that out and get pumped up with songs Neville may listen to while kicking butt in Dumbledore’s Army.

Micah: Can you do one at random? Or am I putting you on the spot?

Andrew: Umm…

Micah: I’m interested to see what people added.

Andrew: How about this song? Can you hear this?

[“Work Bitch” by Britney Spears plays]

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: I’m going to skip ahead.

You want a Bugatti?
You want a Maserati?
You better work, bitch
You want a Lamborghini?
Sip martinis?
Look hot in a bikini?
You better work, bitch

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: You know who this is, Micah?

Micah: I do not.

Andrew: [laughs] Do you want to take a guess?

Micah: I’d say, like, Kesha.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Close. Britney Spears.

Laura and Micah: Really?

Micah: Britney? Wow, what happened to her?

Andrew: Yeah. Oh, Laura, you didn’t know either?

Laura: No.

Andrew: That was “Work Bitch” by Britney…

Laura: I didn’t know that she could get any more auto-tuned.

Andrew: Oh, come on. That’s a good song. I think that’s off of Britney Jean.

Laura: Oh, okay.

Andrew: Anyway. So yeah, check out that playlist and feel inspired.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: Here’s a fun question, turning to Muggle Mail now. This is from Mira.

“Hi, MuggleCast! I am REALLY enjoying your show, and I am currently listening to some recent ones on repeat! Yesterday I actually ran into my mom’s parked car on a bike while listening to it!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Wow.

Laura: I hope you’re okay! And your mom’s car, too.

Micah: Yeah, be safe, please? Helmet, I hope?

Andrew: Helmet, maybe some training wheels… [laughs]

Laura: This is scary because we had feedback from someone a few months ago about how they got into a car accident while they were listening to us, right?

Andrew: Yes, and didn’t we deem that episode cursed?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Probably.

Andrew: I hope Mira wasn’t listening to that episode. If she was, that’d be crazy. Anyway, she says,

“I was wondering what you think would happen at Hogwarts because of COVID-19? Keep doing what you’re doing. I absolutely love the podcast; it is like having a Harry Potter fan as a friend (which I don’t have, just my middle school English teacher)! Thank you so much!”

Aww. So how would Hogwarts deal with COVID-19? Would there be a quarantine of some sort at the school?

Pat: I just think they’d all be walking around with Bubble-Head Charms on.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Agreed.

Andrew: Would they be confined to their dormitories?

Laura: No. I mean, we’ve already established that Hogwarts is a security nightmare, so I don’t know that they would quarantine to the extent that we are in the Muggle world. But I think you also have a note here from WizardingWorld.com about wizarding abilities to heal Muggle illnesses?

Andrew: Yeah, so J.K. Rowling wrote about illnesses and disabilities way back in the day on Potter-No-More.com, and she said that wizards can deal with Muggle illnesses; they can deal with them easily, so in the case of COVID-19, they would be able to avoid it, I think. However, serious injuries and illnesses that are exclusive to the wizarding world, they have to really fight those.

Micah: That makes sense. They would be smarter than us.

Pat: I feel like quarantining would qualify more towards the professors, because the students really can’t leave. They probably wouldn’t be able to go to Hogsmeade, but the professors can come and go from the castle as much as they want. I think quarantining would really only apply to them.

Micah: And to be honest, sounds like Umbridge is just her own version of COVID-19 with everything she’s doing to lock down the school.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Pat: Accurate.

Andrew: But Hogwarts is also very large, so there’s more room to spread out, I feel. It’s way bigger than any school we know, so I think they’d be able to keep six feet from each other in the corridors and whatnot. Anyway, this next email is from Meg, who is actually Eric’s girlfriend, and I thought, “Well, since it’s Eric’s birthday weekend, we have to include this.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Meg said, “Happy Thursday,” which, by the way, was Eric’s birthday. “I have ruminated on some similarities between Harry Potter and Rubeus Hagrid,” getting back to our discussion from last week. And these are pretty funny. She said, “Untidy hair, not so great with the ladies…”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “… friends with a big black dog, can both see Thestrals, both think Lucius Malfoy is a grade A you-know-what, both think Draco Malfoy is a sniveling punk, and personal history with Tom Riddle.”

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: She should be on the show. I mean, these are better answers than Eric gave.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: They were clever. They were clever. We have a new sponsor here at MuggleCast, another clothing recommendation for you, actually: MeUndies.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Maybe Dobby should order some of these, or another house-elf.

Micah: Maybe Harry should give them to Dobby.

Andrew: There you go.

Laura: Is that how we’re setting house-elves free now? Giving them MeUndies?

Micah: With MeUndies, yeah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Free your house-elf with MeUndies.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 26, “Seen and Unforeseen.” And we’ll start as always with our Seven-Word Summary, and Pat, you will kick things off. Try not to start with “Harry.”

Pat: Okay, let’s start with… dreams…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: … enter…

[pause]

Andrew: Laura?

Micah: Did we lose Laura?

Andrew: I think we lost Laura. [laughs]

Laura: Can you hear me now?

Andrew: Oh, yeah. There you are.

Laura: Okay… the…

Micah: … mind…

Pat: … through…

Andrew: Dreams enter the mind through…

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Laura: We’re out of time. That’s it.

Andrew: Well, I know. We also couldn’t hear you, so I feel like we should… [laughs]

Laura: Oh, give ourselves a few seconds?

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Dreams enter the mind through… I don’t even… I have no clue where this could possibly go. Snape’s…

Laura: [laughs] … lessons.

Andrew: There we go. Okay, cool.

Pat: That’s pretty good.

Micah: I like it.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Micah: It’ll suffice for today.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, let’s talk about Chapter 26, “Seen and Unforeseen,” and we’re not going to go through it in order; I broke it out a little bit differently. I wanted to start off by talking about The Quibbler, and we all know Harry had his interview with Rita Skeeter towards the end of the last chapter, and immediately there’s a little bit of concern that Harry’s story is being held for a feature on Crumple-Horned Snorkacks.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah, it’s funny. It’s Luna; it’s the Lovegoods. But I think at least as a reader, should we be concerned for the legitimacy of this publication if we weren’t already? Given that Harry’s story is a little bit more important than these beasts.

Andrew: Right, and I think it serves as one more reminder that maybe Harry didn’t make the best decision. He finds this out, that they’re waiting on this feature on these creatures, and Harry might be like, “You know, maybe this wasn’t the best idea. I have this big interview. I’m waiting for it to come out. It’s going to change everything, potentially, and they’re obsessed with the Crumple-Horned Snorkacks.” What strikes me about this is that Xenophilius seems to not really understand the enormity of this interview, and I would think he would want to drop everything and prioritize this interview with Harry.

Laura: I think from a reader perspective, though, this serves to make the payoff that much better when we see how this is received later on in the chapter.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: I agree. Speaking of Rita Skeeter, how much legitimacy is she providing here to the story? We know The Quibbler is not the best resource for information, but Rita provides another level. We know that she was a bit of a tabloid writer for the Daily Prophet, but I actually think that her involvement in this lends a lot of legitimacy to Harry’s story.

Andrew and Pat: Yeah.

Pat: I agree. She had such a strong following in the previous book; how many people email…? Or not email. Geez. [laughs] How many people sent Hermione owls just berating her when they thought that she was with Harry and all that kind of stuff, just because of something that Rita wrote? So Rita has a following, and I think that that helps the story immensely.

Andrew: It’s a shame that we didn’t get to read Rita’s story, because you also wonder if there are some Rita-isms in this article. Presumably not, because Hermione’s got her under her thumb, but I would have really loved to have read it. We just get the headline and that’s it.

Pat: Yeah, and the fact that she wasn’t allowed to use her Quick Quotes Quill.

Micah: And it’s a knock against the Daily Prophet as well, right? We talked about them in the last episode and how they’re really being a mouthpiece for the Ministry, but the fact that one of their more prominent writers goes over to a publication like The Quibbler to tell a story like this is really a bit of a knock on them.

Andrew: Yeah, it is.

Laura: Agreed.

Micah: Now, Pat touched on all of the owls showing up, and Harry gets a number of pieces of feedback from some readers at The Quibbler, but it wasn’t long before Umbridge shows up at the breakfast table to ask what it was that they were all looking at, and man, is she pissed.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That was the ultimate mic drop moment for Harry. It says that he “tossed” The Quibbler at her. I just envision him…

Pat: Oh, I love that moment.

Laura: Yeah. Oh, it was great.

Micah: But she ends up giving him a week’s worth of detention and banning him from Hogsmeade, and I guess in Harry’s mind, it was all worth it. But I kind of wondered here, does she have the authority to pass down this punishment? She hasn’t even read the article. Presumably, she’s only seen the headline, so she doesn’t really know what it says, and it seems like a bit of unfair punishment.

Laura: Yeah, I think that she doesn’t really need to read the article to have a good idea of what it says, given Harry’s history of trying to out this information. Something that I think might have been a missed opportunity, though, is I understand that the article was about Voldemort’s return and the Death Eaters, but it also would have been a great opportunity for Harry to out Umbridge’s detention practices. Like, “Hey, Dolores Umbridge is literally causing physical distress on students during detentions, and I have the scars to prove it.”

Andrew: Oh, yeah. That would have been great. That should have been a follow-up interview in The Quibbler; “Now the tell-all about Umbridge.”

Micah: Yeah, she would have gotten sacked at the end of the chapter instead of Trelawney.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, you’d think so, because parents would read this and they would not be cool with it at all. By the way, there was a really great line from Fred in the scene where Umbridge comes up to them and asks what’s going on, and Fred just says, “‘Is that a crime now?’ said Fred loudly. ‘Getting mail?'” [laughs] It was just such a quick retort.

Micah: Yeah, and kind of to the point that Lee Jordan brought up in the last chapter, Umbridge shouldn’t be talking to Harry about anything other than classes.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly, Umbridge. Follow your own rules, Umbridge.

Laura: But she’s the [loftily] High Inquisitor, so she can do what she wants.

Micah: But I like that idea, Laura, about putting in The Quibbler in this article about how she is really physically harming students, and to the point, there’s evidence to prove it. They could’ve put a picture of the back of Harry’s hand, or the back of Lee Jordan’s hand, or anybody else who’s been in detention with her over the course of the last couple of months. There’s physical evidence. So yeah, I don’t think Fudge would have had any choice but to get rid of her.

Laura: And it’s also very much related to the Voldemort narrative, because Umbridge started doing this to stop Harry from talking about Voldemort.

Micah: So of course, it’s not long until Umbridge comes up with another Educational Decree, Number 27, which basically states that the possession of The Quibbler results in a student’s expulsion. Now, when I’m reading this as an adult, versus when I read it however long ago it was, I’m thinking about things like freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and they’re both being denied here. Laura, what are your thoughts here about banning certain reading materials? We could even throw in how a lot of schools around the US banned Harry Potter for a period of time because they thought it inspired witchcraft, which is crazy.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. This is very true, and you can also connect it to… again, I know I harp on this a lot, but there have been numerous examples throughout history where oppressive, tyrannical governments target institutions of education in order to prevent people from broadening their minds and potentially becoming adversaries of said tyrannical government. So Umbridge is really bringing down that iron fist-like tyranny on Hogwarts, for sure.

Micah: Totally. But as is the case with anything that you try and ban, especially in the case of an article, if you’re looking to try and prevent people from reading it, the worst thing you could possibly do is ban it, because now everybody is going to want to read it, and that’s exactly what ends up happening. And similarly, Andrew, you actually got a note from one of your listeners… [laughs] One of our listeners. She’s not just your listener.

Andrew: She only listens to me on MuggleCast.

Micah: Yeah, clearly. Josie wrote in to actually make a pretty interesting comparison to what happens here with The Quibbler article.

Andrew: Right, so as Hermione points out, everybody wants to read this interview because Umbridge banned it, and Josie writes,

“I know this is several years late, but I wanted to share my thoughts with you about JKR’s #Wormtaily tweet accusing Hypable of posting Cursed Child spoilers. I completely understand Andrew’s reaction to the situation, but as the conversation continued, I was surprised that none of the other hosts or the listeners mentioned or connected the situation to Chapter 26 of Order of the Phoenix. I think JKR intended for her tweet about Hypable to do exactly what Umbridge unintentionally did with her Educational Decree about the Quibbler. I think she knew there was no possible way she could ever keep people from reading spoilers about Cursed Child, so she did what she could to direct fans toward the harmless teasers on Hypable in the hopes that it would distract them away from the blatant spoilers posted in other places. Rather than condemning Hypable, I think it was actually more of a sneaky endorsement.”

Andrew: [laughs] She’s absolutely right, because for anyone who doesn’t remember when J.K. Rowling called out my website Hypable for posting Cursed Child spoilers, the thing was we had only posted what Houses Albus and Scorpius and Rose were Sorted into! Completely mild spoilers, and we hid them behind the headlines. It’s not like we went on Twitter and said, “Guess what, y’all? Albus Severus is a Slytherin. What a shocker, am I right?” No, we didn’t do that. So yeah, I think this is a very interesting theory. I think she did encourage people to go to Hypable on purpose, despite saying “Don’t visit Hypable,” and then directed people away from… God, what sites were…? I guess Tumblr. Tumblr was a thing back in 2016. There were spoilers all over Tumblr, very detailed spoilers, and it kind of ruined the story, because you’re just getting all these out-of-context spoilers about the play, like, “Bellatrix and Voldemort had a baby.” [laughs] You read that out of context, it’s crazy. Or you hear about all the Time-Turner usage, it’s crazy. So yeah, good theory, Josie.

Pat: Yeah, I love this theory. I would love to know if this was something that Jo had in the back of her mind.

Andrew: By the way, everybody, my birthday is coming up, and I still do not have a framed print of that tweet from J.K. Rowling, so if anybody would like to do that for my birthday, I want that and a vibrating broomstick.

[Laura and Pat laugh]

Micah: We’re on it. Don’t worry. Well, I think we’re on the vibrating broomstick. Laura, Eric, and I will do our best to take care of that.

Andrew: Yes. Coordinate with Pat.

Micah: Okay, yeah. After the show, we’ll work on that for you, Andrew.

[Laura and Pat laugh]

Laura: Yep. We’ll wrap it up just like Harry’s Firebolt was wrapped up when it arrived at the table…

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Laura: … and everybody was supposed to not know what it was.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah. Make sure the batteries are not included, because we don’t want the delivery person to accidentally turn it on.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Speaking of this comparison, Andrew, one other thing about The Quibbler that I thought was cool… and thanks to Pat for correcting this. That’s why, Pat, it’s great to have him on the show.

Andrew: Fact checking.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I know. The students actually bewitch The Quibbler so that it looks like the pages of it are actually pages from their textbooks, and I thought this was actually pretty cool.

Andrew: Yeah, that was a very clever way of hiding it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s ingenious.

Micah: It actually reminded me of like a show nowadays where – and I’m sure there’s a million examples – something breaks on social media, and then you could have all these different cutscenes of the girls are in the bathroom and they’re all… I mean, even Hermione mentions this, right? All the stalls are closed, but people are in there reading it, and then in the hallways, these kids are bewitching their textbooks to look like… so they’re all consuming it, right? It’s kind of comparable to nowadays. Imagine if social media existed during this.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: People would get alerts on their magical cell phones, or… I don’t know how that works.

Andrew: And then Umbridge would ban Twitter and all social media platforms. All phones, actually.

Micah: But there is some positive reaction. We talked a lot about the negative reaction, and Harry getting detention. Sprout ends up giving points to Gryffindor, just kind of out of nowhere. Flitwick gives Harry some candy. Trelawney reverses course on Harry’s death omen prediction and says that he’s going to live a very long life and have… I think it was 12 kids?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Seamus comes around, right? He says that he now believes Harry, and even sent the article off to his mom. And Cho… I mean, Cho wants to be boyfriend-girlfriend again.

Andrew: Woohoo!

Micah: So there’s some positive that comes of this article.

Andrew: Time to try holding hands again. Yeah, there’s a lot of positive that comes from this article, and it was really funny to see J.K. Rowling describing the ways that the teachers were slyly patting Harry on the back.

Micah: Yeah. But there’s the other side where there was some negative reaction from certain students, including those kids who Harry named their fathers as being Death Eaters. And I know this was supposed to be a tell-all article, but did Harry maybe not think it all the way through, knowing that he goes to school with Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle? And they introduced Theodore Nott in this chapter as well, or make mention of him again, and Harry, of course, gave his father’s name as being a Death Eater too. Was this a smart choice on his part?

Laura: I think so.

Pat: I think it is, because it provides more legitimacy to the story. If he would have just said, “Oh, there were other prominent people in society there,” that wouldn’t have done anything. I’ve been in this situation before, too, where sometimes you just have to lay out all of the facts and not worry about the repercussions, because it matters that much to get the truth out there.

Laura: And now people like Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle – the daddy versions of Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle – they all… [laughs] That was maybe not the best way to phrase it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But now they are all under a magnifying glass, so everything they do is going to be scrutinized in some way. So I think that this is a good thing.

Andrew: Yeah, and remember, Hermione said that they actually can’t get mad at Harry right now, because that would mean they violated one of these decrees by reading the interview. So it was pretty brilliant.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Andrew: Umbridge kind of stepped in it, in a way.

Micah: She did. Yeah, she’s starting to lose it a little bit in terms of her reaction.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: She’s not as well thought through, I don’t think, as she has been in prior decrees in prior chapters. She has a very knee-jerk reaction, especially to this decree, and as we’ve discussed, it only ends up causing more people to read it anyway.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: But one other thing to touch on that happened at the beginning of this chapter, when everybody is having breakfast, is that Harry and Hermione are talking about his date with Cho and how it went, and Hermione starts to give Harry some advice about how he should have handled the situation. And I’m sitting here… I’m sympathizing with Harry, I’m sympathizing with his frustration, because I think that she could have been a little bit more helpful in giving Harry some information before, as opposed to sitting here now looking back on it saying, “Well, you actually should have handled the situation this way.” How about, Hermione, you shouldn’t have asked him to even come see you when you knew he was going to be out on a date with Cho? How about that?

Andrew: Yeah. Problem A, I think Hermione was so distracted by this opportunity to have Rita interview Harry that she didn’t think this through, the Harry/Cho date. Problem B, I don’t think Hermione’s excuse would have even worked on Cho, because Hermione says, in hindsight, “You should have said it was really annoying, but I, Hermione, made you promise to come along to the Three Broomsticks.” I don’t think that would have made Cho feel any better, because Harry is still picking Hermione over Cho. He doesn’t have to go meet Hermione, no matter how annoying she is. He can be annoying back by not going on Valentine’s Day to the Three Broomsticks with another girl. So I don’t think Hermione’s excuse was a good one either in hindsight.

Pat: But Hermione also says that he should have had Cho come with him, which I do think would have been good, because Harry’s never really said the entire story to Cho because she always ends up crying, so she’d be able to sit there and listen to the interview as well, and really have that, I guess, sort of public situation of hearing the story where maybe she’d be able to understand it better, set aside her emotions a little bit, to really understand what Harry went through.

Laura: Yeah, and I think if she had come and realized the importance, the magnitude of what Harry was doing here, she wouldn’t have been upset anymore. She would have realized, “Oh, this isn’t about meeting another girl. This is about getting the truth about what happened to Cedric out there.” But I do think, though… I agree, I think Hermione could have prepped Harry a little better for this, but I think that her explanation of how this could have been different, I think it’s pretty on point. Cho is going through a lot, which of course amplifies things, but she’s a bit superficial, right? She wanted to go on this very showy Valentine’s Day date where they went to this place that was just overwhelmingly romantic and had couples making out all over the place. She really was laying it on thick with that, right? And I think that if Harry had really laid it on thick in return and been like, “Ugh, God, yeah, I just have to do this. Please come with me; it’ll make it so much better if you’re there,” I think that would have worked.

Pat: Yeah. And I mean, honestly, Harry is dumb in some situations, and Hermione has been his best friend for five years now. She knows how Harry’s mind works. She should have known that he wasn’t going to come up with something to tell Cho, so Hermione should have laid this story out beforehand.

Andrew: Amy, who is listening live on Patreon right now, has an interesting theory. She says, “Hermione is friends with Ginny, and she knows Ginny likes Harry. Did she do it to undermine the date with Cho?”

Pat: Ooh.

Andrew: I kind of like that.

Laura: I don’t think so.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: But at this point, Ginny has been dating other guys, so I don’t know.

Andrew: True.

Laura: And Hermione, if we recall… I think we find out in Book 6, Hermione was the one telling Ginny she needed to move on.

Micah: Hermione is just a matchmaker. We don’t realize it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, one thing she doesn’t like – or at least appears not to like – in this chapter is Quidditch, and she says that it creates bad blood between the Hogwarts Houses. This pisses off Fred and George and Harry, and what do we make of this? Hermione seems like she’s pretty passionate about Quidditch; at least she’s not talking down on it through all the books prior to this, so what do we think is causing her to be so angry with it right now? And I don’t disagree with the point about creating bad blood, but is it bad blood, or is it just rivalry? Is it sports? I don’t really think that Quidditch by itself creates bad blood. I think the whole idea of Sorting students into different Houses, that could create bad blood, and Quidditch is just an extension of that.

Pat: I think her frustration with Quidditch right now is mostly stemming from OWLs, because they’re coming up. We’re getting towards the end of the school year. She’s seen how they’ve all prioritized Quidditch over their studies, especially for OWLs, so I think she’s just over it and wants to focus on her academics and thinks that the boys should too.

Laura: Yep. I was going to say she’s really exaggerating what she thinks is more important here, and I think it’s causing her to diminish the importance of Quidditch.

Andrew: I also agree with you, Micah, to a point, about yes, this is life, this is sports, there are rivalries, but I’m thinking about this in terms of going through high school myself. There weren’t matches against other grade levels in my high school, for example. It was against another high school. You’re pitting people against each other in the same school, which I think amplifies the tension and the rivalry and the potential drama.

Micah: Right, but doesn’t that all stem from the fact that you’re Sorting them into Houses when they first get there?

Andrew: Yeah, that too.

Micah: Quidditch is just the byproduct – or one of the byproducts – of the fact that this is how the school operates, right?

Andrew: Right, right.

Micah: It’s four Houses against each other. Do you think it gets this intense if people from different Houses are playing Gobstones against each other?

Andrew: [laughs] No, but there’s a cup involved here.

Pat: True, and don’t the Quidditch points go towards the House Cup at the end of the year too?

Andrew: I don’t know. Maybe they get some points towards it? But another way to think of this is, again, this high school example. We are all one. We all had a mascot in high school, right? Mine was the renegade, which has not aged well, but we were one renegade. At Hogwarts, you don’t hear them saying “We are one Hogwarts.” We are Gryffindor, we’re Slytherin, we’re Ravenclaw. They’re splitting people up.

Micah: And that’s interesting because especially in Goblet of Fire, you see more alignments, I think, taking place between these international schools with the Hogwarts Houses than you do within Hogwarts itself, right? There is no unifying factor, maybe with the exception of Cedric. Everybody loves him, even Slytherin. But Slytherin only loves Cedric because they don’t like Harry. So I just feel like there’s more bonding that’s taking place with Durmstrang and Beauxbatons than there is with Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. But again, that’s all what it’s about, I guess. It’s about competition, and everybody’s competing against each other. But I think also for Harry it’s a sore point, because he’s looking through the lens of the fact that this is yet another thing that he is barred from doing because of Umbridge. And he even says he would have rather jumped off the Astronomy Tower than admit it to Hermione; he would have given any number of Galleons not to care about Quidditch either. But obviously it’s something that he cares deeply about; it’s been something he’s been good at since he’s gotten to Hogwarts. And I love the jumping off the Astronomy Tower reference, because we know what happens in the next book.

Andrew: [laughs] Was that on purpose? Did J.K. Rowling do that on purpose? I hope not.

Micah: Well, doesn’t…? Is it Fred or George in the next book that also makes a similar reference to the Astronomy Tower? I don’t know if it’s just a running joke at Hogwarts about jumping or falling off the Astronomy Tower, but maybe that’s what gave J.K. Rowling the idea for Half-Blood Prince to have Dumbledore fall off of it. I don’t know.

Andrew: It could be a…

Laura: Maybe it’s native advertising for the hit new ride at Universal Studios. [laughs]

Andrew: I agree. I completely agree. Dumbledore’s Magical Astronomy Tower of Terror Free Fall. Also, I just did a quick Google, “tallest tower at Hogwarts,” and according to Google, it’s the Astronomy Tower. So maybe it is just a running joke at school about the tallest tower at Hogwarts. Since that’s the one, that’s why we keep hearing about it.

Laura: Something I thought was kind of a fun throwback to Prisoner of Azkaban, though, in regards to Quidditch: Gryffindor makes massive Quidditch comebacks in Prisoner of Azkaban and in Order of the Phoenix, so this is just another one of those connecting the thread moments between these books. In Prisoner of Azkaban, Oliver Wood is lamenting the fact that Gryffindor has not won the House Cup in seven years, and they finally do it in Prisoner of Azkaban. And then we know the comeback that’s coming for the Gryffindor team later on in Order of the Phoenix, which is pretty satisfying given how badly Quidditch goes in this chapter.

Micah: Definitely. So let’s switch gears a little bit; let’s talk about some of Harry’s dreams. There’s two of them that happen in this chapter, and the first one is a little bit trippy. I don’t know what Harry was eating or drinking or smoking before he went to bed, but…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: He was smoking stress. He’s stressed. And happy, but also stressed.

Micah: Maybe that’s it, yeah. Dream number one is about Neville and Professor Sprout waltzing around the Room of Requirement while McGonagall plays the bagpipes. Sounds like a start to a fanfiction that I don’t want to read.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: When I read this for the first time in 2003, this confirmed to me that Neville would become the Herbology teacher and that Minerva would become headmaster. Because I study dreams, and I know that if anyone’s ever playing bagpipes, that means they have a bright future in a high position ahead of them. And if you waltz as a student, you become the teacher who you are also waltzing with. Confirmed.

Laura: Wow, this is some Trelawney level dream interpretation happening here.

Micah: Yeah, this is…

Andrew: [imitating Trelawney] “Thank you, Laura!”

[Laura laugh]

Pat: I just think that somehow, in Harry’s mind, he did the unfathomable and found a way to be able to waltz to bagpipe music.

[Micah laughs]

Pat: Which… it’s impossible. So I don’t know how he did it, but he did.

Andrew: I’m so glad Pat was on an episode where he got to say “bag” in his Wisconsin accent for everybody.

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: “Bihg-pipes.”

Micah: Andrew, I thought that was… there was so much confidence behind what you just said, I actually believe it, so…

Andrew: [laughs] Good. Let’s move on then. Don’t even debate it.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: What do you have to say about the doors afterwards? Harry walks out and then he’s in that corridor that he has been seeing for quite some time. I didn’t make much of that. I really enjoyed your interpretation, though, of the…

Andrew: Yeah, the doors were boring. Neville and Sprout waltzing…

Micah: Yeah, who cares about the doors? We’ve seen them before.

Andrew: Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Think of something new.

Micah: Yeah. All right, let’s go on to the second dream, where Harry is actually Voldemort. This was cool.

Andrew: [laughs] Cool?!

Micah: Yeah!

Andrew: You’re sick.

Micah: First he was Nagini; now he is Voldemort. He’s just… I mean, that was a quick jump. I mean, he didn’t even go to a Death Eater in between. He’s Voldemort.

Andrew: [laughs] That escalated quickly.

Micah: Yeah, totally. And we see a scene play out between Voldemort and Rookwood, who we know from the last chapter has just escaped from Azkaban, and he is providing information to him about the Department of Mysteries. And we learn that there was a little bit of a misstep on the part of one of the other Death Eaters named Avery, who provided information to Voldemort that Broderick Bode would have been able to retrieve the prophecy, and Rookwood is very adamant about the fact that that could not be the case, so Voldemort is kind of pissed off that he’s been wasting time over the course of the last few months to no avail. And there’s some detective work that’s done on the part of Hermione a little bit later on in the chapter, but we do learn that Lucius Malfoy placed Broderick Bode under the Imperius Curse to try and retrieve the prophecy, and if he had come to in the hospital, he would have likely been able to provide too much information to, let’s say, the Ministry, assuming the Ministry would believe him about what was going on. And we also learn Sturgis Podmore was Voldemort’s first attempt earlier in the summer to gain access to the Hall of Prophecy, so there’s a lot of underhanded work going on here by Voldemort, as to be expected, but Hermione hears all this, and I think she makes a mistake. She says that Harry shouldn’t tell anybody. I disagree.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree for a couple reasons; one, for the reasons we’ve discussed over the past few months, but also, what information do we think Rookwood is giving Voldemort here? Could it potentially be that Voldemort needs to lure Harry into the Department of Mysteries? Because if so, this is an awful time for Hermione to be like, “Let’s just forget about all this.” Of course, Hermione doesn’t know, and they don’t even know about the prophecy, and that’s what Voldemort is after. But still, the timing of this is crazy. So what do you guys think Rookwood might actually be telling Voldemort?

Pat: I think he’s just telling him that one of the people who prophecies are about, they’re the only ones that can actually remove it without having anything happen to them.

Laura: Yep, agreed. And I had a question here: Is knowledge about prophecy really that locked down? Obviously people wouldn’t know the intricacies of prophecies, and being able to access the Hall of Prophecies is obviously something that is very specialized; you probably have to have some DOD level of clearance to do it. But it seems like just from a public knowledge perspective, knowing, “Oh, yeah, only people that prophecies are about can touch the prophecies.” It’s surprising to me that that’s not more general knowledge.

Andrew: Right, or even something Voldemort would know by now. I mean, okay, yeah, Neville might not know that because he’s Neville, but Voldemort, he should have learned about that a while back.

Micah: Don’t hate on Neville, man. He’s getting into his…

Laura: He’s getting it. Doing that waltz.

Andrew: He works, bitch. He waltzes to “Work Bitch.”

[Everyone laughs]

Pat: Well, I can kind of see, though, that that kind of general knowledge about prophecy is going away because Seers are becoming more and more rare. A lot of people consider Divination and Seers to be just kind of, I don’t know, wishy-washy magic, so I think the legitimacy of being a Seer is going away, and I think that just is translating now into the population where people don’t really care about prophecies anymore.

Micah: I also think it is possible that Voldemort could know this, but yet he wants to make an attempt where he doesn’t have to physically take himself to the Ministry and risk exposure so he’s trying to utilize somebody like Broderick Bode who works in that department. And maybe there’s some special thing about Unspeakables, that they’re able to retrieve these prophecies without the actual person being there. So I think there is the potential for Voldemort to know this information, but he just doesn’t want to take such a high risk at this point. That said, he seems pretty pissed off that Avery gave him the wrong information, so I do think there’s definitely some lack of information that’s being provided here. And if this is, in fact, the moment where Voldemort makes the decision that he’s going to have to lure Harry there, because it’s probably easier for Harry to retrieve the prophecy again than it is for him to risk exposure, it’s a huge mistake on the part of Hermione to tell Harry not to share this information.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Because again, this is a recently escaped Death Eater from Azkaban who is providing Voldemort with important information. And I also wonder, too, Snape kind of gets a glimpse of this, and how much information is he taking back to Dumbledore and others about what he’s seeing inside of Harry’s head? I would think Dumbledore would expect a report.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Yeah, especially if Snape sees something like this. He doesn’t really care about Harry being pushed into the toilet by Dudley, but this, this is important.

Micah: Totally, and I think that takes us to these Occlumency lessons.

Andrew: Well, I also just want to say goodbye, Avery. I never liked your paper products. Kind of glad that you’re getting out of here.

Micah: [laughs] Yeah, I think he is done for.

Andrew: He’s done for. I can never figure out the labels; which are which? I don’t get the numbering scheme.

Laura: [laughs] Well, see, what you don’t realize, Andrew, is that this was Avery’s second calling. After things went south with Voldemort, he decided to go form his own label-making company.

Andrew: I see.

Laura: And he’s apparently just as bad at that as he was at his last job.

Andrew: The envelopes say 8160, but then there’s also 4140. Which is it? I can’t tell which template I’m supposed to be using!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: How do we think that Harry is doing progress-wise with Occlumency? Doesn’t seem like he’s doing all that well until a little bit later on in this chapter.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Not great, Bob. I mean, this is an important step forward because he can penetrate Snape’s mind, and even Snape is surprised by this. But no, he has not been progressing very well, and it’s partly because of the teacher and partly because Harry… well, Snape is right. Harry might not be taking this as seriously as he should be. But I do equally blame Snape, if not more so.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I think part of the blame also… I mean, I think it rests on Dumbledore too. You can trace Harry’s level of interest in this to the fact that he feels shut out and he feels isolated, and given that all of this concerns him, the fact that he’s not getting very much information kind of leaves him out at sea. He’s adrift, and he’s like, “Okay, I need to close my mind down to Voldemort because… I’m not really sure why, what he would be trying to do.” And I think that that, honestly, just doesn’t give Harry the buy-in that he needs in order to focus on this.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, he’s definitely in a weaker state, too – we’ve talked about this – after each of these lessons.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And you would hope that he would be getting stronger as a result, right? Even from one lesson to the next, he’s learning how to recover. But going back to that memory that he sees of Voldemort and Rookwood, I do wonder if he is, in fact, sharing this information with Dumbledore, because it’s clear that Harry is not able to. I don’t think it’s a matter of, at least still at this point, not wanting to close his mind; I just think he’s not able to. And should we expect a 15-year-old to be able to close his mind to certain thoughts, especially when you have somebody as powerful as Voldemort who is now aware of this connection and can easily manipulate it? I think there’s too high of an expectation put on Harry.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Definitely a significant burden on his shoulders. The other thing that I’ll observe is when Harry was doing his private lessons with Lupin on how to fight the Dementors, Lupin always had chocolate on hand, and as we’ve seen, consuming chocolate helps to sort of bolster your mental and emotional strength. Snape isn’t doing anything to build Harry up after these sessions, so Harry is just getting torn down again and again and again, and it’s weakening him over time.

Andrew: Give. Harry. A. Scalp. Massage.

Laura: [laughs] Give Harry chocolate, man. Easy fix.

Micah: It’s so true, though, because there’s really just only one moment of recognition, and it’s after Harry is able to penetrate Snape’s mind, where he seems somewhat impressed by what Harry has done. But that’s just a fleeting moment and it’s gone, because Snape’s reaction after the fact is just “Let’s go for another round, Harry,” and Harry knows that he’s about to pay for what he was just able to do, which, again, that’s not the dynamic that should be going on here, right? To your point about Lupin – and again, we know that they’re very different people – but Lupin had a way of building Harry up, as you said. Snape just seems like he’s been given a task that he really doesn’t want to do, but he’s going to use every opportunity to his advantage to take down Harry and make him feel even worse than before he walked in the door.

Laura: There was also just a nice little throwback here that I wanted to call out: When Snape was seeing the flashes of Harry’s memories, one of the memories was from Prisoner of Azkaban where the Dementors are descending on all of them, and the memory specifically at one point focuses on Snape, so Snape is seeing himself from Harry’s vantage point in Prisoner of Azkaban. I thought that was pretty cool.

Micah: Yeah, very cool. Harry also enters the Department of Mysteries, and I was wondering how? How is this possible in everything that’s going on right now, that this memory…? I don’t know, really… a vision? I’m not sure what to call it… just kind of pops up, and Harry I don’t think has experienced this before, right? This is something completely new.

Pat: I think it’s because we know that Voldemort is very skilled at Legilimency, so he’s either gotten those visions or thoughts, whatever, from Avery or Rookwood previously, and because Harry and Voldemort have that connection, he’s probably seen it somewhere in his subconscious, seen that from Voldemort’s mind.

Micah: Cool.

Pat: And that’s why he’s able to move forward in it. And I think at this point, Voldemort is starting to realize that connection a little bit, and maybe has started to, I guess, give Harry more information to move forward.

Micah: So it’s like he’s feeding him certain memories or certain visions.

Pat: Yeah, and I think it… or it could be the part that Harry is curious; Harry wants to see where it’s going, so he just may have accessed that from Voldemort’s mind, just because his subconscious is like, “I want to go further through these doors,” so he got that information that way.

Andrew: My other guess would have been he did get through those doors during a dream, but for whatever reason, he just didn’t remember that part. Maybe he blacked out within a dream once he got through the doors. Because yeah, this doesn’t make much sense to me. I like Pat’s theories, though.

Micah: Yeah, I like Pat’s theories as well.

Andrew: Okay, we’ll go with his.

Pat: I am canon.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Well, we touched a little bit upon how Harry is able to defend himself in one moment in these lessons, and it’s a bit of payback for Snape, though we know that the memories that Snape definitely would not want to be accessed are being put in the Pensieve. So it’s interesting, though, that he’s willing to have these memories even be viewed, even if by accident, when Harry throws up that spell.

Andrew: Yeah, but what is he going to do? Take out every single memory from his head? That would be probably impossible.

Micah: That’s true. But we do get a bit of insight into Snape’s childhood; it says that “a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner… A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies… A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broom stick.”

Andrew: “A boy was transforming into a vampire, to his father’s delight.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Well, the problem with this broomstick was it was a vibrating broomstick. If only he had known.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: A bucking broom… yeah, is that like when you try and ride a bull at one of those bars? It just tosses you around?

Laura: It’s like, “Get off.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But yeah, Snape seems very vulnerable in these memories that Harry is seeing, especially the fact that he’s crying in a corner at one point.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Snape doesn’t want Harry to see this. Snape is tough; he’s strong. He doesn’t have any problems in his life.

Laura: No, I mean, this makes total sense. Somebody does not end up like Snape without a serious amount of trauma in their childhood. There’s just no way.

Andrew: There’s no way you end up with that hair after a good life.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah, and presumably his father was abusive to his mother, if not physically, verbally, and Snape was witness to a lot of this. And I think we see the transition, right? He is now in his teenage years. He’s very isolated; he’s by himself in his room, and he just doesn’t have much to do, and it’s kind of sad.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, in this very brief moment we get within Snape’s mind, we learn three very large things that you’re touching on: His dad may have been a bully, he was bullied, and he was isolated and didn’t have any friends. And that’s a lot in one little paragraph.

Laura: Yeah, so he turned into a bully.

Andrew: Right.

Pat: Yeah. And I think this has even a bigger insight, and relates him a lot to Voldemort, because wasn’t it Snape’s dad was the Muggle? So I think the way that he saw his dad treating his mom is part of the reason why he joined Voldemort’s side, because he just hated the way that Muggles treated wizards, the same way that Voldemort just thought his dad was awful and wanted to kill him.

Micah: Yeah, totally. And we’ll never know what was to come after that because their lesson gets interrupted. Now, I don’t know how it’s possible for them to hear a woman screaming all the way up in the entry to the Great Hall when they’re down in the dungeons. Am I not thinking right here?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But that just seems like a mistake to me. But we can move past that.

Andrew: The walls are paper thin at Hogwarts.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We’re talking about a castle here, right? It’s a small point; we can move on from it, but…

Andrew: Okay, well, but the voices might echo through the halls, and Trelawney’s is very loud in the movie, at least. She has her moments.

Micah: Well, this moment, I thought, with Trelawney really shows Umbridge’s vindictive nature, more so than maybe all else, with the exception of her detentions, just in how she’s treating a fellow human being. And I just think it also speaks to the overall condition of Hogwarts right now, right? You have all of the students huddled around, it’s very disorganized, the professors don’t know what they can and can’t do, Dumbledore isn’t there, and in the midst of all this, you have Trelawney just completely breaking down because she’s been sacked from Hogwarts. It’s sad.

Andrew: Yeah. Also, I want to point out, Micah, that bats have very good hearing.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, that’s what it is, yeah.

Andrew: So that’s probably another reason Snape could hear so good.

Micah: Good call.

Andrew: Yeah, but this is a very sad scene. It’s very… the students and the professors at Hogwarts, I think, feel defeated. Now, of course, there was a good plan in place from Dumbledore that we’ll talk about in a moment, but yeah, this is a very defeating moment for both reader and Harry and a lot of the teachers.

Laura: I mean, the humiliation and the secondhand embarrassment that I feel from reading this scene, Umbridge literally having Trelawney’s trunks tossed out and telling her she’s got to go as presumably hundreds of students stand around and spectate. That’s just awful. She’s going to get a lot of suck count updates today, I’ll tell you that.

Andrew: [laughs] Get ready, Umbridge.

Micah: Yeah, she makes quite the spectacle of all this, and I wonder if the Quibbler situation maybe forced her hand a little bit more. Maybe it pushed her to make decisions more quickly than she otherwise would have. We knew that this was probably coming at some point, but I wonder if this expedited her decision-making.

Andrew: It shows that Umbridge still has control at the school. She kind of fumbled when this interview with Harry occurred, but now she’s kicking out a teacher. She’s still got it. She’s still got things under control at Hogwarts.

Laura: She also needs distraction fodder, right?

Andrew: Right. Make everybody forget about this interview that Harry did.

Pat: Well, it is something in this chapter that is kind of weird as I was rereading it again yesterday. This chapter takes place over an entire month, so The Quibbler comes out in the beginning of the chapter, Trelawney is fired a few weeks later, so if she’s still harboring all of this a couple weeks later, like, girl, you gotta relax somehow. Go pet those kittens. Drink some more tea. Just take some chamomile. Calm down.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: I agree with that. But I mean, what Harry did is the worst thing that he could do in Umbridge’s mind. She’s doing everything she can to downplay the idea that Voldemort is back, she’s pretending that is not the case at all, and Harry goes behind her back and does this, and I can see why she would stew over this for weeks.

Laura: I think it’s really interesting to look at the disintegration of Hagrid and Trelawney’s mental states in Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix, because of course, in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid’s profession is coming under fire due to the Buckbeak situation, and he’s pretty much drunk the entire book, and we see a very similar thing from Trelawney here in Order of the Phoenix. And there was a really interesting moment in Chapter 6 of Prisoner of Azkaban where she’s addressing the fact that students have never seen her before their third year, and she said, “I find that descending too often into the hustle and bustle of the main school clouds my Inner Eye.” And we really see Trelawney in the main school a lot more in Order of the Phoenix, and she’s wandering around talking to herself, drunk all the time, and it was just an interesting observation that she had earlier on and makes me wonder if there might be a little bit of truth to that statement. I mean, we know that she has made two accurate predictions in the past, and so is this time that she’s being required to spend more down in the main castle, is this also contributing to the deterioration of her classes?

Micah: Yeah. No, that’s really cool, that connection. I wonder, too, yeah. And I also thought when I was reading through this chapter specifically, Dumbledore can’t let Trelawney go, especially now.

Andrew: Right. Yes.

Micah: She holds the key to so much information that it would be highly dangerous for her to be expelled. If you picked any other professor, Dumbledore would probably be like, “Yeah, you know what? Okay, see ya.” Maybe not; he’s a sympathetic guy, but you get my point. If he lets Flitwick go, not the same ramifications as somebody like Trelawney, who made the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort being out there. And I think that also ties back to a lot of what we learn about in Prisoner of Azkaban, at least…

Andrew: Well, and remember, Dumbledore hired her because of that prophecy to begin with. He didn’t want to hire her, and then she makes this prophecy, and he’s like, “Oh, I’ve got to hire her to protect her,” so yeah. But agreed, especially now. And I wanted to bring this up later: He needs to keep her at the school for her own safety. Voldemort would come after her if she was banished to Hogsmeade or wherever else.

Laura: There was also a fun thing I noticed in Chapter 6 of Prisoner of Azkaban when they’re reading the tea leaves. Ron is reading Harry’s tea leaves, and he says, “There’s a blob a bit like a bowler hat. Maybe you’re going to work for the Ministry of Magic.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And of course, that’s more of a Cursed Child connection…

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: … but still fun. I was like, “Wow, so she really did think this through.”

Andrew: [laughs] See? Cursed Child is canon.

Laura: Well, I mean, with the exception of the whole Voldemort/Bellatrix winged love child bit. I don’t know about that.

Micah: Yeah. Well, I swear, if you go back in the Goblet of Fire movie and you go to the first task with the dragon, you can see Albus and Scorpius in the crowd. They’re there.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: You just have to look very closely.

Andrew: Ahh. I wish that were true, because then everybody would accept Cursed Child as canon. Everybody would absolutely love it. [laughs] We should Photoshop them in, actually. Let’s do that.

Micah: Oh, I’m sure there’s a way to do that, yeah. Totally.

Andrew: Listener challenge of the week. Remember we used to do those? Listener challenge.

Laura: There’s a throwback.

Andrew: And I also want fan art of Snape giving Harry a head massage. Thank you.

Micah: That might be a bit too far. But actually, you know what? That might already exist somewhere. Umbridge thinks that she has the upper hand until the doors open and Dumbledore appears, and he’s like, “Got ya, bitch.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It was a really cool visual that J.K. Rowling described.

Micah: Yeah, it was.

Andrew: Dumbledore standing in the front doors. It’s a misty night behind him, and Harry was impressed by the striking visual. Oh, I wish we saw that in the movie.

Pat: Yeah, instead we got that terrible line delivery.

Micah: Yeah. Do you want to talk about that? Because I agree; that line was awful.

Pat: Yeah, when Dumbledore… after he saves Trelawney, he’s like, “No, you can live here. Blah, blah, blah,” and then he just screams at all of the students, “Don’t you have studying to do?!” Like, really? Dumbledore would not do that.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Yeah, I said for me, that was second to “Did you put your name in the Goblet of Fire?!” when he’s screaming at Harry in the trophy room.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Those two lines are up there as not being Dumbledore lines.

Andrew: Yeah, and this is why Michael Gambon got this reputation as being the angry Dumbledore, which didn’t check out with what we saw in the books. And we didn’t see this with Richard Harris’s Dumbledore either; if Richard Harris had lived to star in the remainder of the Harry Potter movies, I think we maybe would have seen a much different Dumbledore.

Micah and Pat: Yeah.

Pat: Michael Gambon didn’t become book Dumbledore until Movie 6.

Micah: Agree, yeah.

Laura: I will say, in his defense, I think part of that is to be blamed on directing.

Andrew: Definitely, and the screenwriting. I’m not blaming Michael Gambon; I’m blaming this production team.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Pat: Well, he also should have read the books. That’s helpful.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Little bit; it helps inform the story. Now that you say that, Andrew, it makes me think, too, Richard Harris… can you imagine him? Just his presence as Dumbledore in the first two movies I thought was so good.

Andrew: Totally.

Micah: And then the moment you mentioned, when the doors opened with just seeing Dumbledore kind of silhouetted against the night sky, I feel like Richard Harris would have been great in that scene.

Andrew: Definitely. I will play devil’s advocate in defense of Dumbledore in the movie in that particular moment. I mean, he did just witness one of his teachers almost get fired, and Umbridge has been driving him up a wall, so it does make sense that Dumbledore would kind of lose his temper. I don’t like it, but I think it can be defended.

Micah: But it shouldn’t be directed at the students, though. That’s the thing.

Andrew: But he lost his temper.

Micah: His frustration should be directed at the professor, not the students.

Andrew: I get it.

Micah: But yeah, I can see him being frustrated, because everybody’s just kind of huddled around and probably making Trelawney feel a lot worse than she otherwise would. This is happening in front of all these kids.

Andrew: Right, she doesn’t… exactly.

Micah: But Dumbledore steps in and he’s like, “You cannot banish her from the grounds. Now meet our new Divination teacher, Firenze, a centaur.”

[Laura laughs]

Pat: Yes.

Andrew: Somebody you hate.

Micah: Somebody whose friends are going to have fun with you later on in this book.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: I personally always loved the idea of Firenze as a Divination teacher. I love reading those chapters. I love the way that his classroom was all set up. I just… I don’t know, for some reason, the first time I even read this book back in whatever year that was when it came out, it was like… I don’t know, something about him was always fascinating as a teacher.

Andrew: I do think there’s a bit of a plot hole with these Educational Decrees, because Umbridge is able to whip out this Quibbler decree within hours of the Quibbler interview being published, but then Dumbledore is jumping through some holes in one of these previous decrees, saying, “Ah, you only get to appoint a teacher if I am unable to. Well, I am able to.” Why was that hole there for Dumbledore to take advantage of, and why didn’t Umbridge fix that that night?

Micah: I’m sure she’s going to make adjustments moving forward. This is not going to be able to stand; we know that. She’s going to essentially take over not too long from now as the headmaster/headmistress, so I think she’s learning as she goes. And I think early on, she was willing to let some of these decrees be a little bit more open-ended, but now, given everything that’s going on, I think she’s going to get a lot more specific. Even the Quibbler decree; that’s very specific. It’s specifically about The Quibbler.

Andrew: Right, and it escalates very quickly. “Will be immediately expelled.” [laughs]

Pat: Well, and I don’t think she had the foresight to see or to even imagine that Dumbledore would hire a nonhuman as a professor, so I think that was just… that thought never crossed her mind.

Micah: Right. And isn’t the whole ability to replace teachers… that’s coming soon with Hagrid, right? When she’s going to be the one to make the decision as to who replaces him, not Dumbledore. Because clearly, there’s so many different levels at which this is insulting to Umbridge, the first being that he’s obviously flexing his muscle in front of her and the students, saying “You can’t banish her from the grounds,” but also stepping in to replace Trelawney, and to do so with a centaur, which we know Umbridge absolutely loathes any creatures that aren’t considered humans, and even humans, she despises, that aren’t pure-blood.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: So this is really Dumbledore sticking it to Umbridge the best he possibly can.

Andrew: It makes you wonder if Dumbledore had a backup list of other professors for each class, just in case this happened to anybody else. I mean, he saw the writing on the wall with Trelawney and Hagrid, but maybe he had a little backup plan for everybody.

Micah: And convenient he does this the very night, the very moment that Trelawney is being banished. He shows up with Firenze. What coincidence.

Andrew: He saw it coming. He’s a Seer himself.

Micah: Maybe.

Pat: Yeah, he read it in his little smoke dial thing.

Andrew: [laughs] Let’s check in on the Umbridge Suck count. We’re currently at 56 before the events of today’s chapter. First of all, she gets one for looking at Harry during the Quidditch match and smiling at him, taunting him, being like, “Haha, you’re not playing right now. Look at what I did.”

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: How about for banning Harry from Hogsmeade and giving him detention? That could actually be two, honestly, because it’s two punishments, right? Or are we keeping it as one? What do we think?

Laura: She particularly sucks this chapter. I think two is fair.

Andrew: Okay.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Pat: Yeah, well, and she also takes 50 points away from Gryffindor because of his interview too.

Micah: Add it to the list.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: This is going to…

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: I’m losing track. Oh my gosh, this is piling up.

Laura: [laughs] This is going to get increasingly more brutal every week as we get towards the end of this book.

Pat: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: What else?

Micah: Definitely giving her one for Educational Decree Number 27 and banning The Quibbler.

Andrew: Yep, that’s an automatic.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: And for sacking Trelawney and making a big scene for no reason. I mean, she could have gotten rid of her without all the theatrics.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, now it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Dumbledore for protecting Trelawney from eviction and using Firenze as an excellent, excellent clap back.

Micah: My MVP goes to The Quibbler for finally exposing the truth, telling Harry’s story.

Laura: I think Educational Decree Number 27 was an unintentional MVP of the Week, because it inspired everybody to look into Harry’s interview and thus shift the tide on his public perception.

Andrew: Interesting.

Pat: And my MVP of the Week is actually going to go to Snape, because he set aside his ego of Harry seeing some of his memories and continue to move forward with the lesson for the greater good.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 26, “Seer Sacked.”

Micah: I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 26, “Umbridge Undermined.”

Andrew: Oooh, I see what you did there.

Laura: That’s some nice alliteration. I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 26, “You’ve Activated Dumbledore’s Trap Card.”

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Pat: And I went with, in Umbridge’s voice, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 26, “Hem-hem, Quibbler Schmibbler.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, or you have a question or comment about Chapter 27, send it on in to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send us a voice memo; we love hearing everybody. Just record it with your Voice Memo app that’s already built into your smartphone and email it to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Just try to record in a quiet place and keep your message under 60 seconds.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Andrew: Last week’s question: What topic does Xenophilius tell Luna Harry’s story is outselling? And the correct answer, as we discussed on this week’s episode, was the Crumple-Horned Snorkack. Congrats to Caleb, Jason, Count Ravioli, I still miss sports, Sara a.k.a. Weensie, Megan, Sarah, Kate, Jabberwock, and LazTatus. And this week’s question: Who retrieves the list of Dumbledore’s Army members for Umbridge? Uh-oh, Spaghettios. Don’t forget to follow us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. You’ll be notified about future live events, like future live Quizzitch events. We also share show previews, Harry Potter memes, all kinds of things, so again, follow us today. MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. We would also love if you joined our community of listeners at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By doing so, you’ll be helping this podcast thrive, and to thank you, you will receive some magical benefits in return, including a personalized video “Thank you” message from one of the four MuggleCasters, our twice monthly bonus MuggleCast installments, the ability to listen live as we record, and so much more. So again, that’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We deeply appreciate your support. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We are only weekly right now thanks to our listeners. And that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. Thank you for listening. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Pat: And I’m Pat.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Micah: Bye.

Andrew: [imitating Trelawney] Goodbye, everybody!

Transcript #462

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #462, Kreacher and the Keys (OOTP 25, The Beetle at Bay)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re going to start the show with more good news this week. Last week, we celebrated the fact that Rupert Grint is having a child with his longtime girlfriend, and now here’s another cute story: We’re learning that J.K. Rowling secretly bought her childhood home back in 2011, and somehow this just only came out. This was in a report from the BBC, and she bought her childhood home that she lived in from between the ages of 9 and 18, and it’s kind of funny. [laughs] First of all, this story says that the cottage was said to have elements of the Harry Potter story within its walls, including a cupboard under the stairs. But Rowling also graffitied the home, just like she did that hotel room where she finished Deathly Hallows.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She left her mark on Church Cottage, with “Joanne Rowling slept here circa 1982” scrawled on one wall.

Eric: I’m telling you guys, we’re going to start finding… these things are going to surface, places where Jo went and just wrote on walls and busts and other stuff. More people are going to come forward, and her criminal deeds are going to be brought to light.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: You know what? J.K. Rowling, feel free to come write on my walls. Increase my home value. Thank you.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: What would that add to somebody’s home? $30,000?

Eric: Yeah, maybe. Pretty cool story. I think that J.K. Rowling is living all of our dreams. I mean, at least me; I would want to buy my childhood home for the nostalgia factor alone.

Micah: It actually is a very nice home, very quaint and comfortable, it looks like. What’s the deal in the front, though, with the cars? How can you be parked in both directions? I don’t understand.

Andrew: That’s an England thing, I assume.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I don’t know. [laughs]

Micah: No, it’s the detail that I pick up on. I see a goat by the bush in the back.

Andrew: [laughs] Micah wouldn’t buy this home because you park in either direction right out front of the home.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s not good for his OCD. Speaking of J.K. Rowling, she continues to tweet up a storm during quarantine. So somebody tweeted J.K. Rowling, “Which of the Harry Potter books was the easiest to write?” And she said, Prisoner of Azkaban. I was in a more financially secure place, Pottermania wasn’t yet overwhelming, and my daughter had started school. For the first time, I had hours a day to write, and that book just wrote itself.”

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: So that was interesting to hear, yeah.

Eric: You can kind of tell, I think, looking back now that she has said this. When you get to Chapter 17 or 18, when they start going down to the Shrieking Shack and all those chapters take place right after each other on the heels of the one before it, there was just so much plot, such a richness that unfurls, and you could tell that J.K. Rowling had those ideas in her and just… I love hearing that she had such an easy time of getting them out, because Prisoner of Azkaban remains my favorite book of the series.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Now I want to reread it, knowing that it was the easiest book for her to write.

Micah: Does that also mean it was the most fun?

Andrew: Probably.

Micah: Because I just think of – to your point, Eric – the whole Marauders backstory, and it just… Prisoner of Azkaban, despite everything with Sirius and the Dementors, there’s still this bit of levity to it, and it’s just so much fun to read, and that’s why I would pick it still as my favorite book. It’s unfortunate to hear, though, that it seems like in other cases – and we know she’s talked about it with, I think in particular, Goblet of Fire – the pressure that she was under to write, and I really do wonder if that impacted some of the storylines. And I mean, she should take a page out of George R.R. Martin’s book. I mean, that dude has been writing The Winds of Winter for almost ten years at this point.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She shouldn’t have given in to pressure.

Andrew: [laughs] So we should have given her ten years to write one of these Harry Potter books?

Micah: No, but I think if she had a little bit more flexibility in terms of writing Goblet of Fire, Order of the Phoenix… because she’s been critical, at least from what I remember in interviews, of some of those middle books, and not really getting the time that she wanted to sit down and write them.

Andrew: Yes. And I believe… I was trying to make this a Quizzitch Live question last week, but I couldn’t find the exact quote. I remember J.K. Rowling saying the same thing, that Goblet of Fire, she was working under a deadline, and that was the last book for which she worked under a deadline, and that’s why there was three years in between Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. Speaking of Order of the Phoenix, she said on Twitter, “Seeing a lot of love for Order of the Phoenix from other readers, which means a huge amount to me. I’m fond of many bits (Luna, Dumbledore’s Army, and Umbridge), but it was a hard book to write for a number of reasons that haven’t ever made it into the public domain, and aren’t about to. It’s hard to communicate the relationship you have with your books post-publication, once they become everybody’s. There are invisible stories interwoven with the printed ones that nobody else can see. It took me years to realize where a certain idea in Potter had come from, because I had taken such a circuitous personal journey up from my subconscious. This is the strange underbelly of published work which only the writer knows. Phoenix is very much that kind of book, so there’s something reassuring about it being loved nonetheless.” So this is interesting because J.K. Rowling is saying Order of the Phoenix was difficult to write for certain reasons that she’s not going to reveal, and she didn’t discover, I think, what she was feeling while writing this book until years later. That’s my interpretation of this tweet.

Eric: Yeah, it’s totally amazing. I am kind of blown away by thinking that the genesis of these subplots is coming from some other place out of the blue; even J.K. Rowling is sort of surprised by what’s in there. But yet she still turns out a completely coherent – if long – plot and book.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: Also, I just want to give her a shout-out for this nice little connecting the threads that she did on Twitter.

Andrew: What do you mean?

Laura: Prisoner of Azkaban? Order of the Phoenix?

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] I thought you were going to be like, “Hermione struggles to write in Order of the Phoenix, just like J.K. Rowling did!”

Laura: No.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah, thanks.

Laura: I don’t think Hermione ever struggles to write.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Laura, clearly she’s listening if she made these connecting the threads tweets.

Laura: Badass.

Andrew: [laughs] Badass. Yeah, so I mean, my guess would be she was going through some mental health struggles maybe, because if this was a hard book to write and she’s not going to open up about it, I think that very well could be one thing that went on. I mean, if it was hard to write because her typewriter wasn’t working, I don’t think she’d have any problem revealing that. But whatever it was was very personal. Maybe it was family issues at the time. Who knows? But that was just a nice little thread to see from J.K. Rowling on Twitter, something we probably never would have heard otherwise if she just wasn’t browsing Twitter and seeing lots of love for Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: I’m glad that she not only came back to Twitter, but is seemingly going back to talking about Potter on it.

Andrew: A little bit.

Eric: A little bit.

Andrew: I don’t think she’s ever going to tell us if Lavender Brown is dead or alive…

Eric: Ugh, unlikely.

Andrew: … but she’ll share these anecdotes from time to time. So before we get to Chapter by Chapter and discuss Order of the Phoenix, we have a brand new sponsor this week.

[Ad break]


Listener Feedback


Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Muggle Mail.

Laura: This comes from Audrey. Audrey says,

“I love this podcast (I’m 11). Anyway, I was thinking about possession with the moment between Nagini and Harry a couple of chapters ago and I was wondering about Ginny. Do you think that she could still have some connection with Voldemort after she was possessed by his memory? Or would she not have a connection because it was just his memory and it was destroyed? Anyway, tell me what you think!”

It’s a good question, Audrey. I think probably because the diary was destroyed, that would have severed the connection. What do you guys think?

Andrew: I would completely agree with that, yeah, because we see what happens when the rest of the Horcruxes are destroyed, and of course, Harry defeats Voldemort and breaks off that connection.

Eric: The trauma remains, unfortunately, for Ginny and for Harry, and so I like to think that maybe some abilities do as well. I would have loved if Ginny retained Parselmouth ability, because Riddle, through her, opened the Chamber of Secrets a couple times. Maybe that would have been even a more satisfying way for them to get down into the Chamber in Book 7 than Ron just fiddling about with trying to speak snake. They could have got Ginny to go down there with them.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: If anything stuck with Ginny, it was probably just the trauma.

Micah: Well, and the trauma, really, of not being able to remember much of anything. Even in the last couple of chapters when we were talking about her experiences and she makes a point of telling Harry, “Look, I’m the only other person that you know that’s been possessed by Voldemort, and it’s a lot of just not remembering what happened.” So there has to be, definitely, some trauma associated, really, with not being able to remember a lot of her second year at… or I guess it would have been her first year at Hogwarts, sorry.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah. Also, a lot of trauma with the knowledge that this was foisted upon her by an adult. Lucius Malfoy purposely gave her the diary.

Andrew: Yeah, awful!

Laura: And to think that he, a 30-some-odd-year-old man, did this to an 11-year-old girl…

Micah: True.

Eric: Pretty messed up.

Andrew: Cool, Lucius. Cool.

Micah: This was our point, not apples to apples comparison, but with Snape penetrating Harry’s mind.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: There’s definitely some mental security nightmare going on at Hogwarts. Add it to the list at this point.

Andrew: Add it to the list.

Laura: Yeah. Audrey, I think that if the diary hadn’t been destroyed, it would be possible for there still to be some kind of connection, but since it was, I think we’re pretty definitive here that it’s severed. Only the trauma remains.

Andrew: All right, and we have this voice memo from Megan.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast, it’s Megan calling from Greece. I was calling because I was listening to your livestream of Episode 461, and I was thinking during your discussion of the Knight Bus and how you guys were talking about how it’s for a stranded or lost witch or wizard, could Harry have, in theory, hailed the Knight Bus when he was transported by Portkey to the graveyard? I mean, it had to be somewhere in the UK, and like Laura mentioned, Mrs. Marsh, I think, lives in Wales. So could he have called the Knight Bus for help? I mean, he was stranded or lost in the graveyard. Thanks for everything you guys do. I love the show.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Harry! Harry, you could have saved Cedric!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah, if he would only put his foot out.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s your wand arm.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, sorry, it’s your wand arm.

Eric: But picture this: He’s dodging spells. The Death Eaters are kind of converging on him. All of a sudden, a hand shoots out, the bus pulls in, and he just jumps on with Cedric and… “Take her away, Ern.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “Okay.” Vroom-vroom.

Andrew: “Take her away from death, Ern!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: They just escape. That would have been awesome.

Laura: Yep. Deuces.

Micah: Does your wand have to be out, though, to hail the bus, or no? Because Harry loses his wand as soon as he…

Eric: Oh, it’s taken from him.

Micah: Well, doesn’t Pettigrew take it away?

Andrew: Ah, that’s why Pettigrew did that, so he couldn’t call the Knight Bus.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But also, if this would have happened in Goblet of Fire, we couldn’t connect the threads as well between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: That’s true.

Andrew: Right, and of course, Cedric needed to die to advance the plot. Blah, blah, blah.

Laura: Also, I just have a feeling that, had the Knight Bus appeared, I think that Stan and Ernie would have been like, “Nope,” and just kept going.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “We’re going to ignore this call.”

Micah: Well, and also, then there would have been a lot of witnesses to the fact that Voldemort is back, too.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Well, that would have been good, right? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Rita Skeeter’s exclusive interview with everybody on the Knight Bus.

Eric: It’s quite possible, since they planned the whole Portkey thing pretty ironclad, that they would have put some kind of spell over the graveyard to prevent people being visible to the outside world. I’m not saying the same shield charms that Hermione uses in DH, but something similar, where you really can’t just hail easy access or something.

Micah: This is what J.K. Rowling was clearly struggling with when writing Goblet of Fire. She didn’t know whether or not to send the Knight Bus to the graveyard.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: There you go.

Micah: But I think it is a cool question, though, from Megan. I will say that.

Andrew: It’s fun!

Micah: Well, we were talking about this earlier: One thing I just thought of – and I can’t remember if it’s the book or the movie – wasn’t it in earlier editions of Goblet of Fire with Priori Incantatem, the people who died came out the wrong way?

Eric and Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: So maybe that’s one example of just a mistake that if she just had more time to write…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It was corrected in a later edition. And people thought it was actually a really huge clue, because I believe Lily came out after James, but if it were reversed… or yeah, she should have been the first to come out, but she was the second. So it’s like, “What happened to James? Did he die years later? Is he Lupin?” So we didn’t know.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh yeah, there was that theory. Forgot about that.

Andrew: I did look up the rules of the Knight Bus, and yeah, it looks like it’s just your wand hand that must be stuck into the air. I would not have been critical of the Knight Bus last week if Harry had actually called it and it saved him at the end of Goblet of Fire. But it has served no good purpose, in my opinion, and needs to drive more cautiously. By the way, I just tweeted J.K. Rowling via our Twitter account, “Why didn’t Harry take the Knight Bus at the end of Goblet of Fire in the graveyard?” So we’ll see if she replies.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: All right. You never know.

Andrew: You never know.

Micah: She’s not busy.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 25, “The Beetle at Bay.” We’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary.

Laura: Valentine’s…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Micah: … Day…

Eric: … happens…

Andrew: … amidst…

Eric: … many…

Micah: … bad…

Laura: … choices.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Good job.

Micah: I didn’t feel the enthusiasm on that one, though, but that’s okay.

Andrew: I liked it.

Micah: No, it’s good. Where we netted out was good. But I know we don’t want to spend too much time evaluating our Seven-Word Summary.

Andrew: Yeah, because they all suck.

Laura: No, that’s up to the patrons.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, that is up to the patrons.

Eric: We’re just doing this for the ratings. Let’s be honest.

Micah: That is. Although, I feel bad; Laura keeps going first every week. That is not a easy responsibility.

Laura: I just try to make it interesting, because it’s so easy to start with “Harry…”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And I’ve sworn off of doing that.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, well, I actually posted on our Instagram story a photo of what we’re about to talk about. It’s a really great MinaLima print that I got of the Daily Prophet, and it says “Mass breakout from Azkaban,” and this is how the chapter begins. We learn why Voldemort was so happy at the end of the last chapter, and that is because some of his Death Eater besties are now free.

Eric: This has to have been a massive insider job, and I’m still kind of reeling after reading this chapter, wondering how exactly they pulled it off, whether the Dementors just opened the cells of the ten people that Voldemort most wanted to get out for Voldemort? Or if there’s now Aurors guarding Azkaban if the Dementors just completely left? So many unanswered questions so many years later still.

Laura: I think it is pretty heavily implied, though, that one way or the other, the Dementors are no longer under Ministry control, and that’s what has allowed this to happen and also explains the fact that there’s no Dementors out searching for these escaped convicts.

Eric: I really loved when Cho pointed that out to Harry a little later on in the chapter. What a cool way of looking at things.

Micah: Yeah, very cool.

Andrew: It would have been a funny visual to see the Dementors jingling the keys and slowly opening up these gates one by one.

Eric: [laughs] I like that.

Andrew: I just can’t see them doing it like that. I more picture them ripping the jail cells apart somehow, or sucking up these Death Eaters, bringing them through the cell and then spitting them back out, because the Dementors, they must float right through those jail cell bars.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, I’m sure that’s how it works.

Micah: It is definitely…

Laura: I just kind of think they just left.

Micah: They just peaced out?

Laura: They’re just doing their thing. Yeah, they’re just floating around all creepy out in the world, doing whatever they want. Nobody to guard Azkaban.

Micah: Do you think Voldemort just kind of floated up to Azkaban with a bag full of souls and just started throwing them out?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: He was like, “Hey, guys, treats! Come here!”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, “Bob, Johnny, take five. Go on your break.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: “I need to take care of some things.” But let’s talk a little bit about these Death Eaters that are broken out. We get information on a couple of them, the first of whom is Antonin Dolohov, and he is responsible for the murders of Gideon and Fabian Prewett, who are Molly’s brothers. And later on in the series, he’s responsible for the death of Remus Lupin, but is eventually defeated by Filius Flitwick, and not sure what that entails in terms of him being defeated, if he’s actually killed. But let’s talk a little bit about Molly’s brothers, and that Ron doesn’t seem to have much of a reaction to this news.

Eric: Yeah, I’m a bit surprised. They’re at the Great Hall, and Ron surely would have grown up knowing what happened to his uncles, Gideon and Fabian, and they were in the first Order. Moody has shown Harry the photo. One of them it took, like, five Death Eaters to get him in the end. But really, truly inspirational role model type family members, and you get the sense that maybe Molly didn’t talk about them or doesn’t talk about them, because Ron doesn’t even take a moment to go, “Oh my gosh, Gideon and Fabian Prewett. We didn’t mention this, but those were my uncles. That’s mom’s brothers.”

Andrew: “I forgot who killed ’em, dang.” Maybe he just forgot.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: That seems like a Ron thing.

Eric: Yeah, I agree.

Laura: Yeah, the only thing that I could think of to chalk this up to is the fact that the Weasleys as a family, we’ve seen throughout the series, do not like to be pitied, and I could very much see Ron perhaps internalizing this and not wanting to make this moment about him, because yes, it’s tragic that his uncles died; however, that’s in the past, and hopefully he’s considering the current threat? I don’t know. I’m just trying to justify why this might have happened for a very good reason, and not just Ron being dumb, because I don’t think he’s dumb. I think that’s a movie-ism.

Eric: And Molly honors Gideon and Fabian, her brothers, presumably by naming Fred and George with their first initial, F and G, as brothers.

Micah: It’s also totally possible that Ron is just not really paying attention right now either, because even Harry references it later in the chapter that Hermione is one of the only people that actually reads the Daily Prophet. So maybe Ron is just enjoying his breakfast and just kind of listening, but not really listening, and so… but I think also Hermione would be aware of the fact that those are Molly’s brothers, too. It is a little weird that it’s not talked about a little bit more given the connection. The other thing I wanted to bring up with Dolohov is I wonder if we will see more of that family in the Fantastic Beasts series, because it does have a bit of a Eastern European feel to the last name.

Eric: Yeah, knowing that he is around to eventually kill Lupin. Don’t like the way this list is going so far.

Micah: Yes, he is a bad, bad man. So is Augustus Rookwood, who leaked Ministry secrets to Voldemort. He is later defeated by the one and only Aberforth in the battle for Hogwarts.

Andrew: The one and only, says Micah and only Micah.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: No, he was there with his army of goats. They just… they charged.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: He uses the Patronus Charm, too, in the movie, right? He knocks away all those Dementors. What do we think his Patronus was? What do we know his Patronus was; not even think.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: It didn’t really take the form in the movie, and I have to say, I’m quite disappointed.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura: They probably thought it would be too suggestive.

Micah: Yeah, him standing behind the goat as it shoots out at the Dementors.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: But everybody else is shooting out animals too.

Micah: That’s true.

Laura: They were like, “No, Micah is going to be way too into this.” [laughs]

Andrew: It would have cost them an extra million dollars to have to animate another Patronus, so they just decided Aberforth’s wasn’t worth it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Can you put a price on goat Patroni?

Micah: Not really. Although they did actually have a real goat in Order of the Phoenix when they go to the Hog’s Head. When they first show up, Aberforth is there; he kind of just grunts. There’s no real interaction between him and the trio. And then there’s that little goat that walks into the next room, and he just follows the goat out.

Andrew: I didn’t remember that. This has been goat facts with Micah.

Micah: Yep. All right, let’s talk about Bellatrix. We know she is responsible for the torture and permanent incapacitation of Frank and Alice Longbottom; we just met with them not that long ago. She kills Sirius – spoiler alert – at the end of this book, but gets her comeuppance in the Battle of Hogwarts from Molly Weasley. And this is the one that draws, I think, the most attention; Harry notices how much different she looks compared to the photo that he had seen of her in Kreacher’s hideaway. And I think we should definitely be concerned about the fact now that she, in particular, has escaped from Azkaban.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: She is unhinged and dangerous and may kill your uncle.

Micah: And may have a very willing assistant back at Grimmauld Place.

Eric: Do you think Kreacher busted them out?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: No, no.

Eric: Just think, they can go…

Andrew: I mean, that is an interesting crackpot theory, because he was away for a while, so maybe at this point you may put those two pieces together. But no.

Eric: Narcissa was just like, “You do our family proud; you go and you get Auntie Bella,” and Kreacher is like, “No problem, mistress.”

Andrew: “You grab those keys,” yeah. Well, Kreacher would have to try, right? If he’s being commanded to?

Eric: Yeah, all it takes is one house-elf. Everywhere is a real security nightmare.

Andrew: “Kreacher and the Keys,” the new backstory from J.K. Rowling.

Eric: Oh, I love it.

Micah: Now, the Ministry’s position is immediately to blame Sirius Black for this breakout, because hey, Sirius did it a couple years ago, so he knows the ins and the outs. He knows how to break out of Azkaban. Makes sense.

Andrew: He has the keys.

Micah: Yeah, he’s got the keys.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Is Fudge wrong, though, to make this connection? I don’t… all else aside, it’s actually not that bad of a theory.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah, but he has to know at this point that the Dementors are no longer under Ministry control. He may not be willing to admit it to himself, but he has to know.

Eric: Yeah, they’re probably just not even there anymore, if you go to Azkaban to confirm the prisoners are gone. “Oh, where are all the Dementors?”

Andrew: And Hermione points out, what else could Fudge do? He can’t admit that Harry was right.

Eric: I mean, he could; it’s just the hard choices, right?

Andrew: Right, right.

Micah: Let’s just blame Sirius for everything at this point.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Well, it’s salt on the wound because we know how Sirius is feeling; now he’ll never be able to go outside. This fresh wave of press has once again prevented Sirius from attaining the freedom that he so desperately craves from isolation, and now this is… so the acts of Voldemort and the Death Eaters are only continuing to worsen Sirius’s state. It’s just… this is what I mean when I say that J.K. Rowling plays with Sirius before she kills him. He just is having a really bad year.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And come to think of it, it’s really sad that he dies before his name is cleared.

Eric: Right. And this is also the consequences of a government that is not transparent or keeping up with the facts, because Sirius Black was not the only person to escape from Azkaban. As we know, Barty Crouch, Jr. did it as well – many, many years before Sirius Black, in fact – by swapping places with his mother. But Barty Crouch, who was quickly administered the Dementor’s Kiss at the end of last year, had told Harry, had told Dumbledore about his escape from Azkaban, and this is something that Fudge should be well aware of, and yet somehow, especially because of how they treated Barty, that story never came out either. So Fudge doesn’t have a lot of options, because there’s so much that has gone to this point under-reported to the public that there’s no real story they can come up with, except “Let’s just pin it on Sirius Black.”

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: This is the issue… oh, go ahead, Laura.

Laura: Oh, I was going to say and this is also just a great connecting the threads moment between Order of the Phoenix and Prisoner of Azkaban. I mean, not only do you have the breakouts from Azkaban, but you also have, like everyone was alluding to earlier, this theme of imprisonment for Sirius. Whether he’s in a physical prison behind bars, or incapable of living his life publicly, Sirius lives out the last, what, 14-15 years of his life in prison, and we get to witness the end of it. It’s incredibly tragic.

Eric: Forever a prisoner, never a bridesmaid. Wait, I said that wrong.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh well. Never a bride.

Laura: Yep. Always a prisoner, never a bride.

Eric: There you go.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, and also is the subject of a hunt, really, by the Ministry under false pretenses, because he’s not responsible either time for what he is being convicted of, or I should say charged with, right? He wasn’t responsible for what happened to the Potters, and now he’s not responsible for what happened with this breakout from Azkaban. And there’s a major shift, though, in tone following this news spreading around the school – Harry picks up on it – and I think this is when people start to really catch on to what’s happening, and there’s this realization that, “You know what? Ten former Death Eaters break out of Azkaban. It seems a little bit fishy. And to put it on somebody that hasn’t been… well, and Sirius, right? Who knows where he is, what he’s doing? But this sounds like Voldemort to me, not really Sirius.”

Andrew: Right, especially when you factor in that Harry has been saying this for a while, and you just asked if Fudge was wrong to think Sirius could be behind the breakout from a strategy point, yes, because the public does start to think differently about what the Ministry has been saying and what Harry has been saying. And of course, this shift in tone towards Harry and treatment of Harry comes into play later when Hermione decides that Harry is going to come forward with his story in The Quibbler.

Eric: Right. But I mean, think of all the resources that are being wasted tracking Sirius Black when he is very much not going anywhere, protected by a Fidelius Charm. He’s really… all of the Ministry resources, how much it’s costing for something that they know is not going to produce any actual results. It’s like funding a search for weapons of mass destruction you know aren’t there. It just is a waste of time and money. And I’m glad that at the end of all of this, the public outcry is so great – of course, it takes the death of Sirius and a return of Voldemort – but eventually, the public outcry is so great that Fudge gets ousted from his position, hoisted on his petard because of these lies. It’s quite hopeful. Good for the wizarding world.

Micah: Yeah, there’s a lot of fake news that’s being pushed out, and the Daily Prophet, as we learn later on in this chapter, has really become a puppet of the Ministry and is only going to print what the Ministry wants it to print. And I think that’s a major issue, and we’ll talk more about it. But one person who does respond in a positive way to this news is Neville, and it’s noted that he shows a ton of progress in Dumbledore’s Army lessons. He’s much more focused. He’s really second best only to Hermione, which, I mean, let’s face it, that’s pretty damn good compared to what we normally think of Neville, compared to what we saw of him just a couple chapters ago in St. Mungo’s. So this was unfortunate that it took something like this to motivate Neville, but he’s definitely in the zone now.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And it shows the true skills that he actually possesses.

Eric: Right, yeah. Talk about a glow-up, you guys.

Andrew: We were thinking, because Neville does have this glow-up and he’s feeling empowered, what song would be a good glow-up track for Neville? And we each picked one, and we’re going to reveal them to each other for the first time right now. Laura, let’s listen to your Neville glow-up track first.

Laura: Sure.

[“Roar” by Katy Perry plays]

You held me down, but I got up
Already brushing off the dust
You hear my voice, you hear that sound
Like thunder, gonna shake the ground

You held me down, but I got up
Get ready ’cause I’ve had enough
I see it all, I see it now

I got the eye of the tiger, a fighter
Dancing through the fire
‘Cause I am a champion

Andrew: So the excellent Katy Perry song “Roar.”

Laura: Just felt right, you know?

Eric: I love that.

Micah: That’s great.

Eric: For Gryffindor.

Laura: [laughs] Exactly.

Andrew: Oh, that’s perfect.

Eric: Paying attention in class, kicking some ass…

Andrew: That should be their theme song.

Micah: I think you and I were thinking pretty much along the same lines.

Laura: Oh.

Andrew: Uh-oh. Well, let’s listen to Micah’s.

Laura: I think I have a good guess of what yours could be.

Eric: Did you pick the same song?

Micah: No, we did not.

[“Eye of the Tiger” by Survivor plays]

Laura: I knew it.

Andrew: Yeah! All right, so “Eye of the Tiger.”

Micah: By Survivor, not by Katy Perry.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But close enough.

Laura: They could do a crossover, I think.

Micah: You know what I was thinking, Laura? We must have Tiger King on the brain too.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Oh, stop it with Tiger King.

Laura: Can never get rid of it. Not a day goes by where it doesn’t come up.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Let’s listen to Eric’s choice.

[“Maniac” by Michael Sembello plays]

Locking rhythms to the beat of her heart
Changing movement into light
She has danced into the danger zone
When the dancer becomes the dance

It can cut you like a knife
If the gift becomes the fire
On the wire between will and what will be

Andrew: Eric’s always got quirky song choices.

She’s a maniac, maniac on the floor

Eric: Woo!

Andrew: Why is Neville a maniac?

Eric: Working up a sweat. He’s out on the dance floor, man. He is getting it.

Andrew: I see. Okay, and here’s my choice.

[“Back in the Saddle: by Aerosmith plays]

I’m back, I’m back in the saddle again
I’m back, I’m back in the saddle again

Andrew: He’s got it, y’all.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Back in the Saddle” by Aerosmith.

Micah: Nice. I think those were all good. Those are all… I could see them playing that in the Order of the Phoenix movie.

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: They all feel like great montage songs.

Andrew: Right, exactly. And Order of the Phoenix movie had plenty of montages, so a whole montage dedicated to Neville.

Eric: Now, as a sort of a surprise to our panel here, I’ve gone and done something a little bit funny in relation to this segment. I actually went over onto Spotify, where our podcast is now streaming, and I’ve created a playlist which is collaborative and public called “Neville Gets Swole.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, perfect.

Micah: Awesome.

Eric: And my encouragement is to all of our listeners to add to this playlist your… we’ve got our top four that are added by us, and then I think we’ll probably come back to it, but I want everybody to add their Neville workout/Neville glow-up tracks to this, and we’ll create a huge beacon of inspiration throughout the coming weeks.

Andrew: I love it, and this will be a great gym playlist for everybody, I think.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Work out at home.

Eric: That’s the idea.

Andrew: I love how the playlist description is just this quote from the Order of the Phoenix book about Neville getting it together.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, while we may be determining songs that celebrate Neville’s newfound determination, traditionally on MuggleCast when we lose a character, we used to play a song as well. I don’t know that we’re going to do that here, but we lost Broderick Bode in this chapter. It’s another article in the Daily Prophet that’s just kind of there, but not really front and center, and we learn that he was strangled by Devil’s Snare in his hospital room at St. Mungo’s, and of course, the trio remember that they saw him when they were recently visiting the hospital, and they actually saw the plant delivered. And Harry is beating himself up that they didn’t remember that it was Devil’s Snare, but I’m pretty sure it was disguised, wasn’t it?

Eric: It was in the pot, I think.

Laura: Yeah, and we would have only seen the Devil’s Snare as a full plant, and I think this was a trimming of a plant that wouldn’t have been immediately recognizable.

Andrew: Right, right. Yeah, it was interesting that Harry beat himself up over this. He doesn’t need to be protecting everybody all the time. You don’t need to be looking out for people in a hospital; there are people who are paid to be there.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But yeah, this kind of reminded me of Venus flytraps here in the Muggle world. I used to love those plants because they would just eat a bug when a bug crawled in there, right?

Eric: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: Did you guys ever have one of those?

Micah: Or your finger.

Andrew: Yeah, but they’re just little babies. They can’t actually hurt you.

Micah: Well, have you seen Little Shop of Horrors?

Andrew: No.

Eric: I was going to say, the Bode farewell song, I’m thinking, is the finale of that show, “Don’t Feed the Plants.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: That’s what I would do. [laughs] But what a way to go, because you know that Devil’s Snare… isn’t the secret to not move? So your natural inclination toward panic when something like this comes out and grips you would, in the end, be your downfall. It’s sort of poetic, and it’s kind of like a mob hit, where he has to… he’s the cause of his own death, in a way.

Andrew: Yeah, if I wanted to kill somebody in the wizarding world, this is probably how I would do it. I would just take a little clipping of Devil’s Snare and mail it to somebody who I hated or needed to kill, and they would just open it up and boom, goodbye.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, clearly the wizarding world does not inspect its mail.

Andrew: Right!

Micah: It’s also somewhat surprising that three 11-year-olds can get through it in Sorcerer’s Stone, but an Unspeakable from the Department of Mysteries doesn’t know how to fight off Devil’s Snare.

Andrew: Good point. I also have these three succulents sitting next to me, and now I’m really paranoid they’re going to come to life and eat me.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Just make sure you water them. Or maybe you don’t want to now.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, they’re sitting in the sun? I don’t want that. I’m going to throw these out after the show.

Laura: Plant murder.

Micah: Yep. But this is an important moment, too, because I think not only do you get the breakout from Azkaban, but you’re learning that a member of the Order has now been killed, and it’s happening within the same moment here. So I want to talk a little bit about Hagrid and Trelawney, really the two classes that we get the most of in this chapter, and both of them are on probation. I don’t think there’s any surprise that Hagrid is now on probation, and Harry again… he’s upset about this, but why? Is he surprised? He should have known if Umbridge was coming to evaluate Hagrid’s class… we know what happened during that class; Hagrid was just all over the place, and Umbridge took every opportunity to make him look a fool and less than intelligent. And I think people have more to be concerned about right now than the fact that Hagrid is on probation.

Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s that, and I also think, is Hagrid that universally beloved throughout the school? I don’t really get that impression.

Laura: No, he’s really not.

Andrew: And meanwhile Grubbly-Plank has been teaching, and maybe they’re all just Plank people. They really like her.

Laura: [laughs] I think the issue here is that it wouldn’t have mattered if Hagrid had led an exemplary class; Umbridge would have still found a way to put him on probation because she’s discriminating against him. I think that’s the root of this issue, is that Hagrid’s teaching abilities aren’t what’s on probation here. It’s his heritage.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: No, I agree with that, but the students may not be thinking that, and why the students aren’t reacting negatively, I think it’s just because they see how he teaches classes, and they’re like, “That makes sense.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, there’s definitely questionable attributes to a number of professors that are hired at Hogwarts, and Hagrid is definitely one of them. But I think, though, the fact that Umbridge is constantly present in these classes, both for Trelawney and for Hagrid, it adds an extra layer of pressure and it creates a very uncomfortable classroom, and I think we see evidence of that. And I’m just wondering, does she need to be there? They’re on probation. We understand what that means, but it seems like she’s disrupting the flow of these lessons and these kids’ education.

Laura: Yes, 100%. She does not need to be there every time. And I know I’ve spoken about this before, but I was formerly a teacher, and anytime somebody comes to observe your class, there’s a level of disruption that comes with that. And the people who do it well are the ones who sort of slip in after everybody’s already seated and focused and remain very quiet and leave a couple minutes before the class wraps, so that ideally, the students might not even have noticed they were there. But Umbridge wants everyone to know she’s there, because again, she doesn’t care about the level of education being provided; she cares about control.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And she’s high on power, too. This is… she really has nothing better to do and the teachers can’t stop her, so she does this. It’s a waste of her time. It’s a waste of everybody’s time.

Micah: One other thing I just thought of, too, is that it’s mentioned about how Trelawney is roaming around the halls and she’s smelling of cooking sherry. Hagrid also later on in this chapter is drinking, and it’s clearly something that’s affecting both of them to the point that they feel like they need to go and get drunk.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: So actually, add that to the suck count.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I mean, not only are your… right, I mean, it’s one thing to have your professional abilities questioned privately with your direct superior, but to have it laid out in front of the people that you’re trying to teach, that’s just a huge distraction for everyone, and is going to have the end effect of making that person a bad teacher.

Eric: Yep, self-fulfilling.

Micah: It’s embarrassing.

Andrew: It is. I think everybody can relate to this on some level. Just imagine if you were podcasting right now and somebody was sitting over your shoulder judging your every move, or if you’re cooking or playing in a video game tournament or building something. Having somebody watching you, judging you, assessing you, is very stressful.

Laura: Yeah, or even if you’ve ever been called out by a boss or something very publicly.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I think this would feel very similar. I’m sure most people have some kind of experience with that.

Eric: JY, who’s listening live over on Patreon, says that the HP Lexicon calendar has a question in it: How is Umbridge teaching her own classes at this time? That’s interesting, because it’s not just Harry’s class; she’s got all the classes from all the levels of Hogwarts, Defense Against the Dark Arts. You would think she wouldn’t have the free time to trail these teachers in all of their sessions.

Andrew: She’s just telling them to read this book. We’re not doing any practical lessons.

Micah: Right. Yeah, she doesn’t…

Laura: Yeah, she doesn’t have to plan.

Micah: [laughs] I was just going to say, there’s no lesson planning.

Andrew: Yeah, there’s nothing… she’s not teaching. [laughs]

Eric: Do you think that she just took a Time Turner from the Department of Mysteries and…?

Andrew and Micah: No.

Eric: Because they haven’t all been destroyed yet. I mean, how’s she getting to all these classes? There’s so many of them!

Micah: It’s a great question.

Eric: I think she’s using a Time-Turner, because that ties it back to Book 3.

Andrew: She’s a very efficient woman. Subtract one from the suck count.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She’s organized. Good for her.

Laura: Geez.

Micah: I will say she is abusive, not as much to Hagrid in this chapter, but to Trelawney in particular, because she’s demanding that she do certain things within her classroom that we all know is just not going to happen. There is a nice little nugget in there, too: I think they’re studying in that class…. I looked it up, and I forget the names of exactly what it’s called, but one is the study of the number seven, and the other is the study of birds and omens associated with them, and when I looked it up, it actually mentioned the augury, which I thought was interesting.

Eric: Ornithomancy and Heptomology.

Micah: Yes. The first is the birds; the second is the number seven.

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: Laura, you talked a little bit about this: Hagrid’s teaching methods are questioned in both Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix.

Laura: Yes. So of course, in Prisoner of Azkaban we have Hagrid having to meet with a committee in order to try and get Buckbeak off, but then we see how that works out. And there’s also a great deal of corruption on this committee because Lucius Malfoy is on it, and now we’re seeing direct Ministry corruption at Hogwarts as Umbridge tries to undermine Hagrid in his profession, in addition to Trelawney. And Micah, I think you noted this here, that both Care of Magical Creatures and Divination are introduced in Prisoner of Azkaban, so that’s a nice little connecting the threads bow there.

Micah: And they’re now really under threat; at least the teachers themselves are under threat here in Order of the Phoenix. And I would even add to that; I would say Trelawney is under scrutiny in both books. We talked about, I think, way back when we first started this Chapter by Chapter, how Hermione is super critical Trelawney in Prisoner of Azkaban, and Umbridge is the one in Order of the Phoenix.

Laura: Yeah. And also, Hermione is the person making a scene in Divination classes in Prisoner of Azkaban. She’s very disruptive. She openly mocks Trelawney, not maybe to the extent that Umbridge does it in Order of the Phoenix, but still, it’s almost uncharacteristic of Hermione, and I think it’s because she’s threatened by the practice that she doesn’t totally understand.

Eric: Right.

Micah: But she does – Umbridge does, anyway – introduce a brand new Educational Decree in this chapter, which you know immediately goes to the suck count.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s been drying up lately. We haven’t had enough Umbridge.

Micah: Well, he’s been away from Hogwarts, so now that he’s back… teachers are hereby banned from giving students any information that is not strictly related to the subjects they are paid to teach, and this is, of course, in reaction to the news in the Daily Prophet.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just laughable on multiple levels. First of all, she calls out, I think, Fred and George for something a few minutes later, and then Seamus, I believe, says, “Well, why are you talking to them? You’re betraying your own decree.” But also, there’s more to the teacher/student relationship than the subjects that they teach and that they learn.

Micah: Of course.

Andrew: So to suddenly cut off the teachers from speaking to their students about anything but their lessons is really terrible.

Micah: It begs the question: Does this apply to Heads of House?

Andrew: I think so.

Micah: So you’re saying McGonagall can’t talk to the Gryffindor students about anything other than Transfiguration.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I guess so, yeah.

Micah: And how is that enforced?

Andrew: So how does she issue some updates about the Houses and whatnot? That seems problematic. Of course, Umbridge didn’t think this through.

Micah: And it also made me wonder if she knew or was catching on about Harry’s Occlumency lessons, knowing that Snape is teaching Harry something other than what he needs to know, but it may be too early to ask that question.

Andrew: Well, the main reason for this decree, right, was because of the breakout at Azkaban. And she’s sitting there watching Minerva and Dumbledore talk at the table in the Great Hall, and she’s probably thinking that they’re going to spread some of the information that they’re discussing to their students, and she’s getting ahead of it by issuing this decree. And of course, students are going to be asking their teachers questions, too, like, “How did the Death Eaters escape from Azkaban?”

Eric: Yeah, or “Who were they? How do I spot them?” Any information the teachers give could keep the kids safe, but that is not Umbridge’s priority here. Umbridge wants to control information.

Laura: And this is also just another great connection to real world instances of authoritarian governments really targeting educational institutions in order to quash out any attempts at liberating students and young people from the prevailing narrative that is being passed down by the government.

Micah: Yeah, and it’s also… I know we mentioned this earlier on in the chapter; you’ve had ten Death Eaters who have broken out from Azkaban, yet you’re allowing your students to go out of the castle to Hogsmeade, where in Prisoner of Azkaban, think of all the security, the Dementors that were in place to protect against just one, just Sirius Black. Now you have ten that are out there, and you don’t even have Aurors or Ministry officials stationed in Hogsmeade. That’s highly questionable.

Andrew: Well, also interesting is that the students don’t really seem to care either; they’ll happily head to Hogsmeade. And apparently their parents are cool with this happening as well. Don’t you think the parents should have sent an owl being like, “Hey, you should probably stay inside the castle right now. Ten Death Eaters escaped. This is ten times worse than when that Sirius crook escaped. Please stay indoors.” But no, there’s none of that.

Laura: Well, it just goes to show, if you have wrong information coming from the very top of your society, it has a trickle-down effect on everyone else.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I mean, not to get too real world here, but look at the number of situations that we have here in this country of people thinking that COVID-19 is a hoax and going out and ignoring social distancing guidelines, despite the fact that our health organizations are telling us, “No, this is a very real threat.” But we have such mixed messaging coming from our government that people don’t know what to believe, and therefore they’re just going to pick whatever information best suits them.

Andrew: Yeah, and if the Ministry is saying, “Don’t be concerned here,” then their constituents are going to think the same thing. “The Ministry is not concerned; I’m not concerned either.”

Laura: Yeah, and they’re going to say, “I can live my life. I can go to Hogsmeade. No big deal.”

Micah: It’s also touched upon for Harry that his lessons with Snape – I know we were just talking a little bit about the Occlumency lessons – they’re getting worse, right? There’s a quote where he says that “He had the horrible impression that he was slowly turning into a kind of aerial that was tuned in to tiny fluctuations in Voldemort’s mood, and he was sure he could date this increased sensitivity firmly from his first Occlumency lesson with Snape.” And Ron has a moment where he flat out asks the question, “Well, could Snape actually be working on behalf of Voldemort to weaken Harry’s condition as opposed to helping him?” And I know, Laura, you had another connecting the threads between Snape’s teaching ability and Lupin’s.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, when Harry is having his private lessons in Prisoner of Azkaban with Lupin, he’s getting progressively better at fighting Dementors, which, again, Dementors have a very similar effect to what Harry is feeling right now in terms of weakening you if you don’t know how to fight them. They’re literally soul-suckers. But Lupin really helps to build Harry up. And of course, we know at this point that Snape is not deliberately trying to tear Harry down, but that is sort of the end result here, so it’s definitely a very interesting parallel to see the difference in teaching styles and how no matter how brilliant you are, if you don’t approach teaching with kindness and understanding, it’s not going to work very well.

Andrew: You know, Ron’s theory at the time made sense to anybody who was skeptical of Snape, which was, like, half the readership if not more. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I found it interesting. It should be given a little bit more credit than it gets, I think.

Micah: I agree, I think it’s dismissed too easily. Hermione is very much of the mindset that, “Oh, well, Dumbledore trusts Snape, so you should trust Snape, Harry.”

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And it’s actually… yeah, it’s a well-founded question that he’s asking. We don’t necessarily have any proof yet as to why we should trust Snape.

Andrew: [laughs] And doesn’t Hermione say, “Ron, you have never been right”?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Reading this back, I’m like, “What if the big twist, one of the big twists, would have been that Ron actually was right about Snape the whole time?” That would have been a cool twist by J.K. Rowling. [laughs]

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: And she would have been setting us up to be surprised because Hermione is saying, “Oh, well, Dumbledore trusts Snape. I trust Snape since Dumbledore trusts Snape, so you should trust Snape too.” That would have been so good.

Laura: I mean, I feel like this was a running trend in the books. I don’t have any examples that come to mind, but wasn’t there a theory going around back in the day, like, “Pay attention to Ron’s seemingly stupid recommendations, because they end up coming true”? And at least if you think about where we were as the books were coming out, this happens in Order of the Phoenix, and then in Half-Blood Prince, Snape kills Dumbledore, and I think at the time that really threw Snape’s allegiances into question for folks. And there was a camp of people who were like, “Yep, Ron’s been trying to tell us the whole time. Snape is not a good guy.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So in a way, she kind of did vindicate Ron’s earlier suspicions throughout the series.

Andrew: That’s a great point.

Micah: Totally, yeah. Ron was just standing there with a sign after Dumbledore fell saying “Told you so.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, as Harry is exiting the Great Hall to go meet up with Cho for their Valentine’s Day – it seems like so long ago we were doing that Seven-Word Summary – little date, he runs into Hagrid, and Hagrid makes it clear to him that he should not be coming down to his hut and visiting him. And there’s this quote where Harry, he feels like he’s being deprived of everything that made Hogwarts Hogwarts, right? He can’t visit Hagrid, he can’t send letters to Sirius, his Firebolt is gone, he can’t play Quidditch, and Umbridge is just really making his fifth year at Hogwarts absolute misery.

Laura: I thought this was interesting, because there’s actually another parallel to Prisoner of Azkaban here. In Prisoner of Azkaban, they had a curfew because of Sirius being out, so they couldn’t freely go to visit Hagrid. In Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry didn’t have a Firebolt. He didn’t have a godfather. He wasn’t able to have the same level of freedom at the school that he’d had in the first two books. So I’m wondering what’s different here, because it feels like there were a number of restrictions in place in Prisoner of Azkaban that prevented Hogwarts from feeling like Hogwarts.

Micah: I think it’s perspective.

Andrew: The older you get, the more problems you encounter, and the sadder life becomes, Laura. That’s the difference.

Laura: [laughs] Wow. That’s very bleak.

Andrew: That’s the difference.

Micah: That was real.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: [sighs] I gotta go, guys.

Micah: See you later, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Don’t you want to come to Hogsmeade with us?

Andrew: I do.

Micah: We’re about to embark on first date territory, and man was this awkward, as most first dates are. But you feel bad for Harry a little bit, but you also feel bad for Cho. And initially they get over that awkwardness, and they’re walking down to Hogsmeade and they connect over Quidditch, which makes sense; they’re both great Quidditch players.

Andrew: Good.

Micah: And there’s a mention of the Quidditch match from Prisoner of Azkaban when they first played against each other, and that was another nice connecting the threads.

Laura: Correct.

Micah: But are we surprised it’s awkward? No, right? It’s two 15-year-olds going on a date for the first time.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: I think J.K. Rowling might allude to Harry not giving this upcoming date much thought in the days prior, but maybe he should have been thinking of some questions to ask his date. Isn’t that what you do before going on a date? You think about the types of questions you’ll be asking? They could have bonded over how much Umbridge was sucking. I mean, they could have gone through our list of 50 instances where she sucks so far.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Could talk about the weather. Could talk about their favorite brooms. I mean, they could probably talk Quidditch for hours, since they both play.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Strategizing, best equipment…

Laura: Well, and that seems to be a great topic to start them out with. I mean, they actually have a really great conversation all the way into the village, and Harry even notes how easy it is to talk to her at first, so I think he’s actually doing pretty well here. And I also just love… this is another instance of J.K. Rowling really capturing the teenage experience. When Harry thinks about walking over to Cho, he’s like, suddenly his feet felt too big for his body, and he didn’t know what to do with his arms. And I feel like everybody’s had that experience of being like, “Oh, where do I put my arms? I look so dumb.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and the stress around touching their hand. J.K. Rowling writes about how hard that would be, which, yeah, those are big things on a first date.

Micah: Totally.

Andrew: Or a second or third.

Micah: But I do agree with what you’re saying, Andrew, not just about thinking up some topics of conversation, but what exactly it is that they’re going to do when they go to Hogsmeade, because they seem lost.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, you need some plans.

Micah: Yeah, at least say, “Oh, you know what? You want to go to the Three Broomsticks? You want to go to…” any other place but Madam Puddifoot’s, honestly.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Because that’s where things just go off the rails.

Andrew: “Do you want to go ride Escape from Gringotts? What do you want to do?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “There’s all kinds of things we could do. We can get a butterbeer, some ice cream…”

Eric: Take a picture by the snowman…

Laura: I kind of get it, though, because this seems to me like… and I’ve been in this experience, not just as a 15-year-old, but as a grown adult, where you’re trying to be super casual. You don’t want it to feel like there’s too much pressure, right? You don’t want to be that person who comes to a first date with an itinerary, right?

Micah: True.

Laura: So they’re just casual. “Let’s go to village and hang out, and we’ll figure it out there.” And then they suddenly get there, and they’re like, “Uhh…”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But do you think Cho had an agenda in terms of bringing Harry to Madam Puddifoot’s?

Andrew: Yeah, she wanted to make out.

Micah: And not like, kissy-kissy agenda. There’s things she wants to know here.

Eric: Yeah, this is where it all goes wrong, is Cho’s picking, I mean, one of the few places that she knows, but it’s got history, and it’s particularly suited to bring out the absolute worst in their shared past. She really is… turns out, this isn’t really supposed to be a date, even though it’s on Valentine’s Day. She really wants to talk about Cedric, right? I mean, she needs to talk about Cedric, but Harry is so distracted by all the romance, and Cedric, it even says in this chapter, is the very last topic Harry wants to talk about.

Andrew: And it should be for anybody who’s on a Valentine’s Day date. I really hate how Cho wants to bring up Cedric. I feel like she brings up Cedric because the date is going badly.

Laura: Yes, she only brings Cedric up because Harry is like, “Oh, hey, I know that we’ve only been on this date for an hour, but can I ditch you at noon to go hang out with another girl?”

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: I think if Harry had made the day about them spending time together, or if he had really leaned in to the romantic side of things – which I think is what she was angling for – I don’t think Cedric would have ever come up, at least not during this date.

Andrew: Exactly. She’s reminding Harry, “Other boys were into me, so why are you going off to hang out with Hermione?”

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: “You’re missing out.”

Laura: Yeah, but she’s also kind of subtly like, “Why am I wasting my time with you here? I had other dudes lined up ready to take me out for a great Valentine’s Day, and here you are, like, ‘I want to go hang out with this other chick.'”

Andrew: Right. What the hell?

Eric: Well, we all know it’s not like that, right? But Cho doesn’t, and Harry doesn’t… Harry is kind of too stunned by the implication that he doesn’t… I mean, he probably would get defensive, but he even laughs at her, I think.

Micah: Well, he doesn’t laugh at her; he laughs at the Hermione situa… once it clicks in his mind why she’s saying the things that she’s saying because of Hermione, that’s why he laughs, so it’s not really directed at her. But yeah, I mean, unlike the last chapter where Harry finally picked up on what she was putting out there, he’s clueless throughout pretty much the entirety of the conversation that they’re having, and I agree, that’s why it goes off the rails. That’s why it goes into Cedric territory. And you have Roger Davies, who’s right next to them – behind them, whatever – and they’re getting hot and heavy at the table…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … and Harry is feeling all the pressure to do the same thing. And Roger ends up getting used against Harry, too, because Cho says straight up, “Hey, he asked me out a couple weeks ago.”

Andrew: Yeah, “That could have been me making out with him.”

Micah: Right.

Andrew: “Instead I’m stuck with you, who’s going to hang out with another girl.” By the way, anybody who makes out in public: Please, no.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Just bad, wrong, stupid, gross, etc., etc.

Laura: But this is also another very teenage moment, right?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, but unfortunately, you see grown adults doing this in Starbucks too, and it’s like, “Eugh.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: How often do you see this in Starbucks?

Andrew: I see many weird things across this wonderful country.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: The other thing I wanted to bring up, though, was what was Hermione thinking by inviting Harry to hang out knowing that he was going on a Valentine’s Day date with Cho? She’s been a translator for Harry and Ron in terms of how to treat girls and what girls may be thinking, and yet she’s inviting Harry right after his date with Cho. She should know how Cho would respond to that news. And yeah, Hermione says, “You can invite Cho along too,” but shouldn’t she know that Cho is going to look at this negatively and be annoyed by this?

Eric: Yeah, absolutely, 100%, you nailed it on the head. I completely blame Hermione for this date, and therefore relationship, unraveling, because she should know better, and she takes no break from insulting Harry and telling him he doesn’t understand girls in the next chapter when he says about how the date went wrong. But really, the only reason that you can’t necessarily blame her is Hermione knows the importance of what it is that she is about to do. This is the opportunity where Harry can set the record straight with Rita, as we know, and there won’t be another opportunity again. Umbridge is locking down the school. That might be the only justification, but at least then a heads-up would have been more, I guess, valued, because she tells him the day of, right? Hermione invites Harry last minute, and Harry is like, “Well, I don’t know how long this date is going to go.” I’ve had that happen to me, too, where you don’t know how long plans are going to last.

Andrew: And Hermione doesn’t even tell Harry why they need to meet over there, so Harry can’t even bring any information to Cho, just that he’s going to go hang out with Hermione for some reason.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, Hermione probably knows if she told Harry it was to meet with Rita Skeeter, he’d be like, “Uh, pass.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: But yeah, I agree. I think that it would have been helpful for her to be like, “Okay, I need you to come do this, but maybe tell Cho this.” A little bit of guidance might have been helpful here for him.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Cho is clearly threatened by Hermione. Why? Have Harry and Hermione…? Everybody knows they’re close friends, but why is Cho or any other girl threatened by the mere mention of Hermione?

Andrew: She thinks that Harry might have a crush on her, too, or Hermione’s got a crush on Harry.

Eric: But what gave her that impression? She must be watching too many Steve Kloves movies.

Laura: [laughs] I think that that’s a pretty normal reaction for teenagers in this situation. You have to think, Cho is in another House, so she doesn’t witness Harry and Hermione’s friendship up close; she just sees it from afar and sees that they’re always together. Plus she’s coming off the heels of the previous year where Rita Skeeter was writing column inches about Harry and Hermione being in a relationship.

Eric: Oh, I guess that’s a good connection.

Micah: Very true. I also think in this moment, Cho is just looking for something for Harry to give her that’s going to let her just unleash on him.

Laura: Yeah, she’s ready to be mad.

Micah: Yeah, and he does it by mentioning Hermione. And I also just think from Hermione – going to your question, Andrew – it’s just a bad suggestion to meet up with her later on in the day. I get it; you’re only going to get Rita Skeeter this moment. You’re away from the castle, no Umbridge. But this is Valentine’s Day; it’s date night. That’d be like if I went on date and then I was like, “Oh, by the way, I’m going to hang out with the boys afterwards,” and it’s Valentine’s Day.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: That shit is not going to go over very well.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Oof, yeah, that is a fail. Never do that.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Well, yeah, so Harry should have just lied. Like, “Hey, I’ve got to go. I’ve got to go finish this homework.

Micah: Or he should have just tried to have a nice date. But I get Hermione putting this in his mind; now he thinks it’s something that he has to do because Hermione asked him to do it, whereas if she didn’t say anything, he could have had probably a pretty nice date. Maybe they could have worked through some of this stuff.

Andrew: Yeah, they could have held hands. [laughs]

Micah: So Hermione is to blame for Harry’s date going bad.

Laura: Well…

Micah: [laughs] Not entirely.

Laura: I don’t think it’s fair, yeah, because Harry clearly doesn’t know how to go on a date, which also, I mean, that’s just part of growing up. These are experiences that everybody has. And I’m sure that in retrospect, both Harry and Cho would look back on this and laugh, because Cho is not being totally rational here either, right? They’re just both coming to the table with different agendas in mind. Cho was really hoping for a romantic Valentine’s Day, and Harry is like, “I don’t know how to be romantic.” [laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So it’s just mismatched agendas, neither of which was wrong. I will say, this tea shop sounds awful.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The tea shop is Andrew’s version of Starbucks times a thousand.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah. Also, coffee for 15-year-olds? This is before Starbucks was a thing, when this book was being written, so yeah. I mean, I never had coffee at 15, so I’m surprised.

Laura: Oh, I did.

Andrew: It’s right around where I got into it. But it actually made me think, why isn’t there a coffee shop at Diagon Alley at Universal? I would love some official Harry Potter coffee. Remember we were talking about that being available at that New York store, if that opens this summer? Now who knows… but I’m so excited for that. I love coffee. I love Harry Potter. Give me Harry Potter coffee.

Eric: Oh my God, they could do a new restaurant in Hogsmeade in the theme park for couples.

Micah: Well, have you tried the coffee that we were talking about on a previous episode?

Andrew: I did. I got the Raven… or no, I got the Slytherin, and it was caramel, like, “Cunning Caramel.” It was okay. It was strong; the scent was overwhelming.

Micah: Yeah, it’s really bold.

Andrew: Yeah, really bold. There is an unofficial Harry Potter coffee shop in Las Vegas. There’s two of them now, actually. I went to one a couple months ago called Bad Owl, and I think I Instagrammed it… or no, I posted it on Patreon. Never spoke about that on air, I think. It was really good, really cool inside, awesome Harry Potter theme. And yeah, I’ll be back. But I want official Harry Potter coffee, please and thank you.

Micah: Well, the opposite of a coffee shop would be a bar, and that’s where Hagrid is.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And he is lamenting over his family, and he’s clearly thinking of Grawp, who we have yet to be introduced to yet in this book, and you kind of feel bad from him. We were touching on this a little bit earlier; I think a lot of it has to do with his family, but I think a lot of it has to do with him being so scrutinized by Umbridge, and his class is not going well. He’s getting beat up all the time; he looks like hell. And this was a nice connecting moment between Harry and Hagrid, even though they’re both just kind of sitting there in silence. I don’t know. It reminded me of bit of a throwback to earlier books between the two of them.

Eric: Yeah, the love is still there, you know? And Hagrid actually says to Harry, one of the few things he does say is, “Ah, we’re the same, don’t you reckon?” Which struck me as being very interesting, because it’s not the first comparison you would ever make between… [laughs]

Andrew: “Look at these two!”

Eric: “Oh yeah, these two characters that have a remarkable similarity with one another.” So I had the idea of how many comparisons can we draw between Hagrid and Harry? Of course, he says that both of them are orphans and both of them are outsiders. I came up with two more, kind of tongue-in-cheek. Well, one of them is not tongue-in-cheek, that their family gives them a hard time, right? Who can’t relate to that, honestly? But the second one was they both know fewer than ten spells.

Andrew: Wow.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Ouch.

Micah: Let’s see…

Eric: Hagrid because he was expelled, and Harry for obvious reasons.

Micah: Both their names start with the letter H.

Eric: Oh, there you go!

Andrew: Yep. They both like taunting the Dursleys. They both hate Umbridge.

Micah: Both love Buckbeak.

Andrew: Both love big creatures: Fluffy, Buckbeak, Grawp.

Laura: Both of them come under great levels of scrutiny throughout the series.

Eric: And they persevere.

Laura: Yeah, we need a glow-up song for Hagrid too.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Let’s just… we’ll make it the joint Neville/Hagrid playlist.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: If anybody has any other good comparisons, send them in, funny or otherwise.

Micah: All right, let’s wrap up the chapter now. We’ve alluded to this a lot, this conversation that takes place with Rita Skeeter making her return appearance here in Order of the Phoenix. Hermione, Harry, and guest starring also Luna Lovegood.

Eric: [laughs] Wow!

Micah: She’s kind of hanging out there on the side.

Andrew: Singing “Weasley Is Our King.”

Micah: She’s just a great character.

Eric: Also, everyone has a cocktail. There’s a cherry at the bottom of the glass that they get to…

Andrew: Big episode for drinking.

Micah: Yeah, Hermione is getting sloshed.

Andrew: Trelawney is drinking. Hagrid is drinking.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Luna is drinking. She has some Gillywater.

Micah: So I wanted to talk about the Daily Prophet‘s role in empowering the Ministry, because it’s just something that unfortunately, I think we see a bit of in today’s society, where there are certain news outlets that maybe aren’t necessarily getting pressured, but are just spewing out false information. But we’ll keep it with Potter for right now. I’m curious, who is it, do we think, that’s applying this pressure to the Daily Prophet? Because Rita alludes to this in their conversation. Do we think the editor-in-chief of the Daily Prophet is getting bribed? Is he getting blackmailed? Or she; I’m not sure who the editor-in-chief is.

Andrew: Yeah, you’re right. Rita alludes to it, and she specifically mentions Fudge. I think, yeah, Fudge could be on the phone a lot with the editor-in-chief of the Daily Prophet, or maybe just had one conversation and be like, “Hey, do not go out and announce that Voldemort is back. Do not believe what you’re hearing from Harry, Dumbledore, and some others. Stick with our line right now that Voldemort is not back, and it might be true, but we don’t have enough evidence yet, and I don’t want to believe it because it would look really bad on me, so please don’t. And I’ll buy you a drink to say thanks.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I mean, also I could just see Fudge threatening to limit the Daily Prophet‘s access to certain governmental information if they don’t report on things the way he wants them to.

Andrew: Right, and maybe the editor-in-chief has political aspirations, and Fudge is saying, “Hey, maybe I’ll help you, but you’ve got to do this favor for me.” Could be lots of things at play.

Micah: Or maybe they’re under the Imperius Curse. We’ve seen that used in this book.

Andrew: Yeah. So they can’t do this interview with the Daily Prophet, and Hermione comes up with this idea to have it published in The Quibbler. And if I were Harry, I would probably be concerned. I know desperate times call for desperate measures, but I just would be really embarrassed to have my interview published in this paper. As Rita says, “It’s a joke, as evidenced by this little girl singing next to me and drinking Gillywater.” I just would be very hesitant about this plan. Plus, Rita Skeeter, I think… hopefully most people who read her in the Prophet know that she’s not a very reputable reporter, so you’re reading a joke of a paper and an interview conducted by a joke of a reporter.

Laura: I mean…

Eric: Yeah. There’s still, I think… in spirit, though, it’s designed to be told… Rita at least has name recognition, and I think somebody accredited, somebody who’s got this big of a deal reporter-wise publishing in a lesser-known publication has an air or an aura of truth, of… what do they call it? Verité, of it being kind of… the way that it goes about it just strikes it as being more valid than if it were published on the main Daily Prophet. In fact, the fact that it’s not in the Daily Prophet is what makes it, I think, more believable.

Laura: Well, it then raises the question, why isn’t the Daily Prophet reporting on this? Which comes a little bit later in the next chapter. But I think it’s worth noting that, yeah, The Quibbler is kind of a joke of a paper, but so is the Daily Prophet.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I guess. But less people think that.

Micah: Now, does Rita still write for them?

Andrew: No, it doesn’t…

Laura: I mean, he notes that unemployment does not suit her.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, right.

Laura: So I’m guessing not.

Micah: Oh, true. You’re right. I think that also, once this story is released, this is essentially what a lot of people have been looking for, sort of the counterbalance to everything that the Ministry has been putting out through the Daily Prophet. And I do agree with the fact that Rita… she’s a tabloid writer, right? She has that edginess to her. But I also think there is a level – to Eric’s point – of legitimacy to her, and people do read her and people do believe what she has to say. So to add a level of legitimacy to The Quibbler also, I think, is part of this too. But yeah, I also really love the position that Hermione is putting Rita in here, because if she’s unemployed, to Laura’s point, what else can she do at this point? This is a story that she would love to have. But also, there’s a control factor here too, right? Because she’s going to tell the story like it is.

Eric: Right.

Micah: She’s not going to embellish at all, and to have that stripped away from her, I think, probably bothers her a little bit.

Andrew: Definitely.

Micah: So does writing for The Quibbler, but she can’t do what she’s used to.

Andrew: In terms of what else to do, she could have started her own paper. “The Rita Report,” by Rita.

Eric: [laughs] But I think there’s something brilliant in mind, that this is how Hermione uses the leverage. It took a year. We didn’t know how it was going to happen exactly, but Hermione calls in the leverage here, and this is the blackmail; it’s “I’ll tell the government you’re an unregistered Animagus,” which probably comes with a penalty or a fine or something.

Andrew: Well, Azkaban imprisonment.

Micah: I think Azkaban.

Eric: Oh. Well, there you go.

Andrew: Hermione threatened that.

Eric: Is there that much of a threat now that the Dementors are all gone from Azkaban?

Micah: She could just break out.

Andrew: Rita’s got to be friends with a Dementor to break her out, I guess.

Eric: Yeah, I guess so. So Hermione uses her powers for good, is what I’m trying to say here.

Laura: It’s crazy to me that the sentence for being an unregistered Animagus is Azkaban.

Andrew: It does seem extreme.

Laura: There are so many other worse things that just happen in the day-to-day of the wizarding world that I’m like, “What?”

Andrew: Yeah, like penetrating a child’s mind.

Micah: Yep.

Laura: [laughs] But also, just think about all of the, I mean, security nightmare stuff that happens at Hogwarts. Imagine what it’s like outside of Hogwarts.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, true.

Micah: Yep.

Eric: Victoria, who’s listening live, says, “I’d take a positive review in a tabloid over a slanderous one in a top newspaper any day.”

Andrew: That’s true. They’re going to make The Quibbler great again.

Eric: [laughs] It is going back to the point that this is just an alternate viewpoint, and sometimes people need that counter way to… it needs to be a little bit balanced.

Micah: All right, well, that wraps up this chapter. We’ll obviously get into more of this article once it’s finally published and names are named and Umbridge gets riled up.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: But for now, I think that’s good. There’s a lot that happened in this chapter; I was surprised.

Andrew: It was a busy chapter, for sure. And we’ll talk a little more about it with the Umbridge Suck count and MVP of the Week and Rename the Chapter, but first, it’s time for a word from our second sponsor this week.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Okay, it’s time for the Umbridge Suck count. How many times did she suck this week, Micah?

Micah: She added some numbers to that tally. First off, I upped the suck count one for her throwing shady looks at McGonagall and Dumbledore.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: This is when the news was breaking of the breakout at Azkaban and she’s just looking around, but in particular, she gives these nasty looks towards McGonagall and Dumbledore, who are talking in private at the table.

Andrew: “How dare they speak to each other?”

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: Also, for Educational Decree Number 26.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: Think it just goes without saying anytime an Educational Decree comes through.

Eric: Yep.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s plus one automatically.

Andrew: We don’t even have to read it.

Micah: The scarring of the back of Lee Jordan’s hand. We touched on this earlier, but Lee calls Umbridge out on her own Educational Decree, and Harry later sees him holding the back of his hand, so she’s at it again with her scarring.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: They need a special club at Hogwarts just for all of her victims. And it surprises me that Lee Jordan doesn’t go and report this either. Nobody wants to talk about it to a higher authority, and I really think if a teacher found out, they would do something about this, because this is terrible.

Micah: Yep. And one more for making Trelawney and Hagrid uncomfortable in both of their classrooms and really just disrupting the overall flow of school at Hogwarts.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: All right, so the new total is 56.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: And it’s time now for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Rita – yes, Rita Skeeter – for coping with the embarrassment she must feel to have to work for these brats! How terrible! Poor Rita.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Blackmail.

Eric: I’m going to give it to Hermione for putting Rita to good use, and to Luna for taking the jabs that Rita gives her in stride.

Micah: I was going to give it to Neville for the way he responded to the article in the Daily Prophet, but I’m actually going to pivot and give it to Roger Davies for having one hell of a Valentine’s Day that Harry didn’t.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: He knows how to get it done.

Micah: He was thirsty.

Laura: [laughs] I’m going to give mine to Luna and Xenophilius Lovegood for committing to getting the truth out.

Andrew: Polar opposite answers, Roger Davies and Luna and Xenophilius.

[Eric laughs]


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Okay, now let’s rename the chapter. Order the Phoenix Chapter 25, “You Beetle Believe It!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “I have to write for The Quibbler?” Yes you beetle believe it.

Eric: I really enjoyed Rita’s name for Hermione, so I named the chapter Order of the Phoenix Chapter 25, “Little Miss Perfect.”

Micah: [laughs] I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 25, “Check, table one.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: And I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 25, “Harry’s Galentine’s Day.”

Eric: Aww.

Andrew: Cute. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, we would love to hear it; send it on in to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or record a voice memo and send it to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We also have the contact form on MuggleCast.com, or tweet us, Instagram us, Facebook us. We are MuggleCast on all three of those platforms. And by the way, happy birthday to our social media manager, Jule, who is turning some age today, the day we’re recording, Saturday, April 18th.

Eric: Happy Birthday, Jule.

Laura: Happy Birthday!

Micah: Happy Birthday.

Andrew: Happy, Happy Birthday!

Micah: Hashtag Happy Birthday.

Andrew: [laughs] Is that a popular hashtag? Happy Birthday?

Micah: HBD.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Yes, last week’s question: What does Hagrid instruct Harry to put on the salamanders at Hogwarts? This answer is chili powder. Chili powder, so they’re a little extra spicy. People who submitted the correct answer to us over on Twitter include LazTatus, Meg Scott, MatthewTwoBeers, LessThanStace, Jason King, A Man, I Miss Sports, and Caleb McReynolds.

Andrew: Micah misses sports too.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Nobody else, though.

Micah: I think we all do.

Eric: I miss baseball, but only baseball.

Andrew: Oh, okay. I miss Quidditch.

Eric: [laughs] Anyway, next week’s question: What topic does Xenophilius tell Luna that Harry’s story is outselling?

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: Can only imagine.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Thank you, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. We would love if you joined our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By doing so, you’ll be helping this podcast grow, and to thank you, you will receive some magical benefits in return, including a personalized “Thank you” message from one of the four of us on video, our twice monthly bonus MuggleCast installments, the ability to listen live as we record each new episode, and a whole lot more. There’s four years of stuff for you to dig through now, all at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And it feels so good to receive your support, so thank you, thank you, thank you. And I should be getting samples of our physical benefit in the next couple days, and I think after that, we will hopefully be ready to announce it, so stay tuned for some news about this year’s physical gift. All right, I think that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Goodbye!

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #461

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #461, Snape’s Secrets (OOTP 24, Occlumency)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we are discussing Chapter 24 of Order of the Phoenix, “Occlumency.” And I was thinking this morning, it’s crazy that we never got this far in Order of the Phoenix, because this is such a critical chapter.

Micah: It’s huge.

Andrew: And I assume we had some discussion at some point about Legilimency and Occlumency, but we’ve never actually discussed the chapter, so that’s cool.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And we also have some Muggle Mail this week, but first, a couple news items.


News


Andrew: Just want to say thank you to everybody who attended our second Quizzitch Live: The Fandom of Secrets. Congratulations to Danny, our first place winner. Runner-ups were Gavin, Snail Bump, Janeth, Gina, Josie, Adrine, Jeff, Lauren, Jamie, EJ, and many others. So congratulations; it was a lot of fun. We had around 600 people playing, and this game, I think, went smoother technically than the first, so that’s good.

Eric: Definitely, definitely. It was a lot of fun seeing how many people came out for it while hosting it. And I gotta say, Andrew and Laura, nice job on those questions.

Andrew: Aww, thanks.

Laura: Thank you. It was a lot of fun. It was like a trip down memory lane.

Andrew: If you want to watch the trivia game, you can watch the replay; we have it on MuggleCast.com, so feel free to watch it at your leisure. That’ll help you kill about 90 minutes of quarantine time. And we hope to do another Quizzitch Live in the weeks ahead. And I think this is a new thing we’re going to keep doing, because they’re just so much fun and everybody seems to really like them. And whether or not Quarantine is happening, I think it’s just a new feature of MuggleCast.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: Yeah. I did hear, though, that the next one may move to the weekend. Is that true? Can you confirm or deny that?

Andrew: Yes, the rumor mill is suggesting that the next Quizzitch Live may be over the weekend to accommodate more people, and we would do it earlier in the day so some of our international listeners can participate. I know these have been late for the international people, so yeah, we will try to do that earlier in the day on a weekend.

Micah: I did see one person in the comments very early on when we started; they were saying, “Oh, it’s 1:28 a.m. in South Africa.” So whoever that person was, kudos to you for staying up and doing Quizzitch.

Andrew: Absolutely.

Micah: As Eric said, you guys did an amazing job with those questions. I thought when I had the first one and I got it right, I was like, “Oh, you know what? I’m going to do great on this.” But then those questions started coming, and I was like, “Wow, I really need to brush up on my fandom trivia.”

Andrew: [laughs] I’m a big fan.

Laura: Yeah, we had some obscure information in there for sure.

Andrew: But it just feels so good to do our own trivia game, because we go to these ones at the bars in Chicago, Eric and I go to them, and they’re just… they’re fine, but they’re not done by fans.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: We’re fans. We know our stuff, so we’re doing these right, I feel. We’re taking over.

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: How about some good news? We all need some good news right now, right?

Micah: Totally.

Andrew: Rupert Grint is expecting his first child!

Eric: What!

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: With his longtime girlfriend, Georgia Groome.

Laura: Oh, that’s wonderful.

Andrew: That’s so sweet. Congratulations to these two. I bet a lot of girls who grew up watching the Harry Potter films are jealous.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I’ve seen posts like, crying face, “My husband!”

Andrew: Yeah. Just wanted to mention it because this is the first of the trio to have a child, so they’re having a little wizard baby.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Now, who do you think is going to be the godfather of this child? Do you think Dan Radcliffe is up to the task?

Andrew: Hmm, good question.

Eric: Do you think Rupert will ask him? I mean, because that’s what… let’s just get all obsessed, talking baby stuff…

Andrew: [laughs] Talking gossip.

Eric: This kid’s going to grow up with an Auntie Emma and Uncle Dan, right? That’s just… we know already.

Andrew: I guess it depends on how close Dan, Rupert, and Emma still are these days. Do they keep in touch? If they don’t, then he might not be the godfather.

Eric: Maybe it’d be Tom Felton, because don’t Rupert and Tom hang out?

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. Yeah.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say a lot of times the relationships that form, the friendships, they may not always be between the characters that spend the most time together on screen.

Andrew and Eric: Right.

Andrew: True, they’re just playing other people. Apparently, Rupert and his girlfriend Georgia have been together since 2011. I didn’t know they had been together for so long, so good for them. Not that it was any of our business, but…

Eric: He told the Guardian in 2018… he said, “I’d like to settle down and have kids soon,” and he said, “If I had a son, would I call him Ron? It’s quite a good name, but probably not. And Grint’s a tough name to pair a one-syllable first name with.” We could probably guess, but I think he’s thinking that his kid, boy or girl, will have a more-than-one-syllable name.

Micah: Ron Grint.

Andrew: George Grint.

Laura: Oof.

Eric: James Grint.

Laura: I hope…

Andrew: How about Fred? Little grim?

Eric: Fred Grint.

Andrew: Fred lives on. Fred Weasley lives on. [laughs]

Laura: Geez. You know, I think it’s possible he might want to give his child a non-Harry Potter name.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right, yes.

Eric: But it’s fun because we all have those sort of hesitations about our own last names. My last name, I have problems with. [laughs]

Andrew: Scull? Yeah, that’s…

Laura: Why? Your last name is cool.

Eric: I mean, it’s cool one month out of the year, okay?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Nah. Halloween year round, baby.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, Laura is goth. She would love the name Scull.

Micah: It’s a badass last name, Eric. You should be proud of it.

Eric: Let’s trade last names, Laura.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, okay. Mine’s real boring; you can have it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If Laura said, “I love your last name, Eric” back ten years ago, everybody would have started shipping Laura and Eric, I think. [laughs]

Laura: Yep. Oh, Jesus, people… listen, I got shipped with all of y’all at some point.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, there’s fanfic.

Laura: I almost… yes.

Eric: Or real fic? What do they call that when it’s real life?

Laura: Ooh, I don’t know.

Andrew: Nonfiction.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, there’s a name for fanfic with real people, but yeah.

Micah: Very good, very good.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: On to Muggle Mail now. This is from Emily.

“I decided to get out and take a walk while listening to the latest episode. I live near a huge cemetery and was walking through during the part where you mentioned that J.K. Rowling got Lockhart’s name from a war memorial. Just after that, I passed a mausoleum with the name Lockhart on it! :O I thought this was a creepy coincidence and wanted to share it with you all. I think I’ll just pretend from now on that this cemetery in Pennsylvania is where she got the idea.”

Eric: Whoa.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s creepy.

Micah: That is. It’s very meta.

Eric: She included a photo.

Andrew: Yeah, and this is huge.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Wow. I wonder if Gilderoy is actually in there.

Micah: What are the chances that that happens the moment you’re listening to the podcast? You’re out on a walk, and you just happen to see something very similar to what J.K. Rowling happened upon, except you’re in Pennsylvania; not in Scotland.

Eric: It’s got to be a million and one.

[Andrew hums The Twilight Zone theme song]

Laura: Maybe it’s a Confoundable.

Andrew: Oh.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Disappeared out of nowhere.

Micah: Catch it.

Andrew: Our next piece of feedback is a voicemail.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hello, MuggleCast. Hope everyone is doing well and staying safe. My name is Yasmin, and I just wanted to respond to something Andrew said at the beginning of Episode 460 when discussing what the quiz questions would be like for the Quizzitch Live: Fandom of Secrets event. Andrew said that an example of a question may be ‘Where did J.K. Rowling reveal that Dumbledore is gay?’ Though I understand that the answer to this question would be Carnegie Hall, I would like to posit that technically, there is a different answer. On YouTube it’s possible to watch the documentary J.K. Rowling: A Year in the Life, which followed J.K. Rowling through the year prior to finishing Deathly Hallows. At just after the 32 minute mark, the interviewer asks if Charlie is gay, to which Rowling says no, but that Dumbledore is gay. Though this documentary was not really released until December of 2007 after the Carnegie event happened in October, I believe the interview in question happened prior to the Carnegie event. I often use this documentary as a response to those who say that Rowling retconned Dumbledore as gay after the books were published to get woke points. Though Rowling has been problematic with issues within the queer community, I think this documentary is definitive proof that she had always viewed Dumbledore as gay and that that informed her writing of him. Thanks for all you guys do, and I look forward to your next podcast. Bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: That is a really interesting observation. Thank you, Yasmin, for sharing.

Eric: What a strong reporter for not leaking that immediately to everybody everywhere, because that was a scoop then.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I have the clip. Let’s listen to this moment from J.K. Rowling: A Year in the Life.

[Audio clip plays]

J.K. Rowling: … born on the anniversary of the battle that finished it all, which is the second of May, if anyone’s been paying attention. And then Charlie had no children or married.

Interviewer: Is he gay?

J.K. Rowling: Dumbledore is gay. I told a reader that once, and I thought she was going to slap me. But I always saw Dumbledore as gay. No, I don’t think Charlie is gay, just more interested in dragons than women.

[Audio clip ends]

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Is the initial reveal here to that reader that she told all those years ago?

Andrew: That would be the very first time, I guess, yeah. And I wonder, did she see this person out on the street and she was like, “Oh, by the way, Dumbledore is gay”? How did that come up in conversation? Maybe the person was asking if Dumbledore ever fell in love or something like that.

Laura: Let’s interview that person.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Why did you not like what J.K. Rowling had to say to you?” Anyway, in Quizzitch Live, we recommended watching A Year in the Life, and again, I want to recommend that. This A Year in the Life documentary, it follows J.K. Rowling around the release of Deathly Hallows, and it’s really, really good, including when she finished writing the book. And you can watch this on YouTube, and we’ll include a link in this week’s show notes. Please, Micah.

Micah: Absolutely. Soon as you send it to me, it’ll go in the show notes.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Before we get started with Chapter by Chapter, this week’s episode of MuggleCast is sponsored by Wondery’s Imagined Life podcast.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, let’s move on now to Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Chapter 24, “Occlumency” in Order of the Phoenix, and we’ll start with our seven-word summary. Ready when you are, Laura.

Laura: Yep. Harry’s…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: … journey…

Micah: … back…

Eric: … into…

Laura: … his…

Andrew: … mind…

Micah: … fails.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I mean, it’s actually that.

Andrew: Actually, that works. Yeah, that’s good.

Micah: I was trying to beat the music…

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: … because I thought we were getting very close on time there.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: We were.

Andrew: Yeah, we had seconds left.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, so Andrew, you touched on this at the top of the episode, but I don’t think we’ve ever ventured into Occlumency really all that much in the course of this show, and that’s saying something, considering we’ve been around for 15 years. And we’ll get to that, but the chapter starts out with Harry really not wanting to go back to Hogwarts, and he goes through a list in his mind of all the things that are awaiting him there. He obviously can’t play Quizzitch – or Quidditch, sorry.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: See what’s happening now? Quizzitch is taking over. But really the only thing he is looking forward to is the meetings for Dumbledore’s Army. And I was just thinking, have we ever been in this situation ourselves before, where we’re going back to school? Maybe it’s going back to college, and there’s only one or two things that we’re really looking forward to.

Laura: Nope. I loved school.

Eric: Oh, wow.

Micah: All right, Hermione.

Laura: I was always very excited to go back. [laughs]

Eric: Lucky you.

Andrew: Hermione indeed.

Eric: There were bad years where I didn’t want to go back for sure after break, or really had nothing except some friends that I see the most at school, that kind of thing.

Andrew: Yeah. There were some elements of school I enjoyed, but mainly I think it was more about summer ending. It was just always sad when summer was ending. It was more that than dreading going back to school.

Laura: You’re telling me that y’all weren’t excited about going school supply shopping? That was fun.

Andrew: No, that was so sad!

Laura: [laughs] I love getting all of my stuff together for the first day of school.

Andrew: I didn’t realize Hermione was guest hosting today’s podcast.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: How was your latest ski trip, Hermione?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I was a lot less prone to abide by the rules than she was, but I did enjoy school.

Micah: Do we think there could be a little bit of PTSD going on here for Harry going back to school? Obviously, a lot of bad things have happened with Umbridge, but I’m thinking of the last thing that happened when he was at Hogwarts was he attacked Mr. Weasley.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true. I mean, it’s been a bad first half of the year, so I can see why he doesn’t want to go back.

Laura: Well, and he’s also thinking about the fact that he’s going to be back under Umbridge’s tyrannical thumb, right? So she’s made the first half of his fifth year pretty miserable.

Andrew: And he doesn’t want to leave Sirius either, right?

Eric: Yeah, he has a bad feeling about that, in fact.

Micah: Yeah, he does. But somebody who is actually quite happy at the beginning of this chapter – and I think it’s worth mentioning – is Kreacher. Kreacher has been found.

Andrew: Yeah, and in a better mood, right? A slightly better mood.

Micah: Oh, he’s like… house-elf high for him.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, and Sirius doesn’t think anything of it now that Kreacher is back, but Harry actually has his suspicions. And of course, Harry’s suspicions will be right, as we learn later.

Micah: Absolutely. And Harry is just trying to relax before he goes back to Hogwarts, and what could put him in a better mood than to find out that Professor Snape is down in the kitchen waiting to speak with him? And Harry does a double take on this.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Because he’s first of all just, I think, shocked that Snape is even at Grimmauld Place, much less wanting to speak with him. And Harry comes downstairs, and the way that I always envisioned this was – and I think it’s actually described this way – is that Snape is at one end of the table, Sirius is at the other, and Harry sits down next to his godfather. And it’s a pretty nasty exchange between the two of them, not surprising. What gives here?

Andrew: Yeah, this was a good fight. They both have some jabs that really land, and I did find it immature overall. We get why there’s this animosity between the two; Sirius had almost killed Snape, so we can see why there’s some anger there. [laughs] But the insults are really good. I just wish… reading the scene, I’m just thinking to myself, did you have to do this in front of the kid in a home filled with lots of other people right now? Take this out on the street. Do it somewhere in private.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, definitely in regards to Sirius, he never really got to grow beyond this, because in his very young adult life he was carted off to Azkaban, so he never got those maturing years that he would have gotten otherwise. And I think Snape also lost that time to serving Voldemort, so I would say both of them are probably pretty emotionally stunted.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just this meeting goes off the rails pretty quickly. Snape says to Harry, “Sit down, Potter,” and Sirius is like, “Don’t give my godson orders! This is my house!” And Snape is like, “But I’m here on Dumbledore’s orders, which supersedes everything else.” And it really should, but the two of them were just never meant to like one another, it seems.

Micah: Right. I think, Andrew, when you were talking about the bad blood that exists between the two of them, it’s really just an opportunity for Snape to one-up Sirius in front of Harry in his own home, where Sirius has grown up. And I also think it’s a bit of showmanship on the part that Dumbledore is entrusting Snape with this major responsibility of teaching Harry Occlumency, and Sirius is just kind of sitting at home, twiddling his thumbs. And I think a lot of what happens here drives Sirius to do things later on in this book, because there is this feeling… not just with Snape in this moment; we’ve seen it throughout the course of this book where Sirius just feels as if there’s nothing that he can do that’s helpful to Harry, or maybe even to the Order.

Eric: Yeah, Snape definitely calls that out, and I think that’s really the fatal blow here, is he’s goading Sirius about wanting to feel involved and feeling like he’s important or can do something, anything, to help. And it might be that Snape is reading this right off of Sirius’s face; it might be that he’s reading his mind subtly, but he absolutely nails what the problem is. And if this occurrence had not happened, if this interaction had not occurred between the two of them, I don’t think that it would even be in Harry’s mind that something like what Voldemort sends him could happen, that Sirius would just venture out and get himself in trouble. But this scene definitely sets that up, I think.

Laura: Should Dumbledore have foreseen something like this, potentially goading Sirius into dangerous behavior, and therefore said, “You know what? Harry is going to be back at Hogwarts tomorrow. Why doesn’t Snape just let him know about this tomorrow?” Why does he need to go visit Grimmauld Place on the last Sunday that Harry is going to be there? Or the last Saturday.

Micah: It’s a great question.

Andrew: Well, setting aside the fact that this is just great from a reader perspective, maybe Dumbledore wanted a fight. Maybe he wanted them to duke it out. Or maybe he was hopeful they would set their differences aside and maybe smooth things over between them. Maybe he envisioned Snape coming to Grimmauld Place, and Snape would say what he had to say to Harry, and then Sirius or Snape would say, “Hey, let’s have some tea and…” What are those things called?

Eric: Crumpets?

Micah: Biscuits?

Andrew: Biscuits! Yeah, crumpets, biscuits… let’s sit down and let’s patch things up.

Micah: We sound so cultured, by the way.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: What do they eat over there? [laughs]

Eric: The other thing is that Hogwarts is no longer his own, strictly. I think they’re going to have to do this… if they do it at Hogwarts, they have to do it under Umbridge’s watchful eye, right? Doesn’t even Snape say, “You cannot tell anyone, especially Umbridge, about this”?

Andrew: Right, so that could be a good reason to do it off grounds.

Eric: Yeah, they’ve invented this cover story.

Micah: That’s where your Quizzitch question comes in, Eric, about remedial potions.

Eric: Ah, yes, yes. We’ll get to that later. So I think that’s why he does it. But I think Dumbledore, for the most part, has completely mishandled his treatment of Harry, we’ve talked about, but also his treatment of Sirius. People are going to lash out if they’re cooped up, if they have nothing to do, if they’re bored. They’re going to try and pass this time. And Dumbledore has not given Sirius… I mean, you can give him a little research mission that can be done at the house, or give him some of your crossword puzzles or something. Just keep the mind active. Sirius, I think, is probably feeling the same level of neglect from Dumbledore that Harry is, and it’s actually a remarkable testament to his strength that it took him all year to actually leave.

Micah: Yeah, agreed.

Eric: There’s your counter point.

Micah: And I also think it’s to set up Harry for going back to Hogwarts. We already talked about how he is really not looking forward to it; this just adds another layer to the fact that he needs to be taking these lessons with Snape, of all people. And we’ll get into it in a little bit, but the fact that Snape is penetrating his mind is just… to me, it’s next level, and I don’t understand why Dumbledore allows it to happen, but he does. Two other points here that you had, Andrew, about Snape referring to Sirius as a coward: We all know how important that one word is in the next book as it relates to Snape, so funny that he would feel empowered to refer to Sirius in that way. And he also… or actually, Sirius refers to Snape as Lucius’s lap dog…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and that brings up the conversation about how Sirius was found out on the platform earlier this semester this year. Big mistake.

Andrew: Right, that was really clever. That’s why I love this fight; there’s so many good jabs back and forth. “Well, speaking of dogs, Lucius saw you as a dog, you dummy!”

[Eric laugh]

Micah: Right. Well, the Weasleys show up and that puts a stop to the fight, and I just thought it was really odd that Snape gets that one line in right before he leaves, telling Harry, “Remember to show up at this time on Monday.” It’s just very Snape. He’s got… no, like, “Hey, I’ve got information that probably the rest of the people who just walked in here have absolutely no idea what I’m talking about.” But we get to the point where Harry and the rest of the kids are getting ready to go get on the Knight Bus and head back to Hogwarts, and there’s a great quote here about Harry and how he’s feeling saying goodbye to Sirius. It says, “Harry had an unpleasant constricted sensation in his chest; he did not want to say goodbye to Sirius. He had a bad feeling about this parting; he did not know when they would next see each other and felt that it was incumbent upon him to say something to Sirius to stop him doing anything stupid.” Should we have known?

Andrew: Well, you have to read between the lines of every little thing that J.K. Rowling says. And yeah, I think we should have known. Maybe we did. I can’t remember if I thought that reading this for the first time. But what also stood out to me was that in their last moments here, J.K. Rowling says that Sirius smiled “grimly,” and of course, the grim is a death omen. And so he smiles grimly at Harry, and then he says, “Take care of yourself.” And it’s a good goodbye; we just didn’t know it was a goodbye.

Micah: Right.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, you could argue that J.K. Rowling has been setting Sirius up to die ever since she introduced him. I mean, his Animagus form looks like a grim.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah. He was born to die. Isn’t that a Lana Del Rey song? “Born to Die.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Doesn’t make it right, though. I just wish that there had been more to Sirius than… she essentially puts him through the ringer of J.K. Rowling, making him suffer all year before finally killing him, and it’s just… I feel like she done my man dirty.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, he’s your favorite character, right?

Eric: He is my favorite character, and I think that probably still holds up. I mean, he was my AOL screen name forever ago.

Micah: That’s right.

Eric: I like that he doesn’t actually leave the house; Harry only thinks that he does. But all of this worrying that Harry is doing no doubt feeds into Voldemort, and probably gives Voldemort the plan on a silver platter.

Micah: Absolutely. And that ties into the fact that Harry makes the decision… Sirius gifts him something that he doesn’t open at this time, but Harry says in his mind he’s never going to utilize it because he doesn’t want to put Sirius in danger. However, if he had only used it, Sirius never would have died, probably not in this way.

Eric: This is J.K. Rowling kicking all of us while we’re down. [laughs]

Micah: Totally.

Eric: The mirror that could have solved so many things all along, and would immediately get around all of Umbridge’s defenses, doesn’t get used? Ahh, it just hurts.

Andrew: But that’s also classic J.K. Rowling. She’s leaving this groundwork that comes into play later. This is something that you might gloss over when you’re reading it the first time, or maybe even the second time. Then you find out how it comes into play, and it’s like, “Whoa, she dropped that early.”

Laura: Well, and you can’t really blame Harry, can you? I mean, Sirius has shown time and again that if the door to irresponsibility is cracked open, he’ll come bursting through it every single time.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Laura: So actually, I think Harry is being really responsible here and doing what any of us would do if we had the same prior knowledge that he did.

Andrew: For sure.

Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Andrew: And you think about just how Umbridge almost nabbed Sirius. I mean, yeah, there’s no way he should risk that type of thing happening again.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: So they leave the house; Sirius has seen Harry for the last time outside of the Department of Mysteries. And they decided to take the Knight Bus. Do you guys know on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver he does this segment from time to time, “How is this still a thing?”

Eric: Oh.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I was thinking that when reading about the Knight Bus. How is the Knight Bus still a thing? The seats and the personal belongings are flying all over because the vehicle is being driven really fast and it’s coming to these screeching halts and accelerating really rapidly. Everybody’s getting sick. Ron was all excited to ride it for the first time, and then by the… not even a few minutes into the ride, he was over it and wishing he could get off.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Why does the Knight Bus exist? This doesn’t sound helpful. This sounds like a miserable trip.

Laura: Andrew, when I was reading this I thought of you, and I imagined I heard your voice in my head saying, “The Knight Bus is a transportation nightmare.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It is!

Laura: But also, it is stated in Prisoner of Azkaban that it’s emergency transportation for the lost or stranded wizard.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: So I think it’s intentionally a bit off-kilter because of some of the situations it might be recovering people out of.

Andrew: Okay, so there’s an urgency, so they have to speed up and slow down really fast, maybe. But I don’t know; I feel like this could still be a more pleasant ride.

Eric: Yeah, I think that they absolutely could probably do something to soften around the edges, but I just always see the Knight Bus as a strict takedown of all public transit. In major cities especially, you get on the bus and there’s always something going wrong on the bus, either it’s too loud, or it’s too crowded, there’s too many people, or it’s too slow. You always have these problems, right? And sudden stops and sudden starts is pretty much the game.

Andrew: And Muggle buses have the seats drilled into the floor. Maybe the Knight Bus should at least do that.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: I mean, that doesn’t matter. I had an experience on a New York City bus one time where the bus driver came to such an abrupt halt that it threw all of us from our seats – I mean, multiple people fell to the floor – so actually, I agree with Eric here that I think this is sort of an exaggerated version of what we all deal with anyway.

Micah: Yeah, or the subway. I mean, the subway is like that too, especially in New York, if you get a conductor who doesn’t really know what he or she is doing, and they realize in a split second that they need to stop the train and it’s in the middle of actually moving. I have had a very similar experience to what Laura just said on the bus, where everybody literally goes flying, even if they’re sitting down or holding onto a pole, because they’re just not expecting it. But I just think it’s part of the magical world. Though I do wonder why magic is not utilized to at least make it a little bit smoother of a ride for most people.

Andrew: Right. I just want to see everybody have a comfortable ride, or at least a little more comfortable.

Eric: Also, apparently you can bump up yourself on the queue as far as destination by just bribing the driver.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Which is… that’s something I want to see implemented in actual public transit. If I can just jump down the train line for an extra hundred pounds or whatever.

Micah: Yeah, why not?

Andrew: Right. Or if you’re on a school bus, because sometimes you’re, unfortunately, one of the last people to be dropped off – your school bus ride is an hour – I would love to bribe my school bus driver to drop me off first.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Do you still ride the school bus, Andrew?

Andrew: Yes?

Micah: No judgment on this show.

Andrew: You know what I mean. Back in the day.

Micah: It’s okay, Andrew. But yeah, I mean, it was very cool to see it come to life in Prisoner of Azkaban the movie, but I do agree it’s a really questionable form of transportation. But I guess really the magic is in the fact that it can get you really quickly from one place to another.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s not as monitored as the… this whole book is about who’s watching who and all that kind of a thing. But the thing that came to my mind was that I had forgotten that they ride the Knight Bus in Book 5, and Book 5 actually also came out before the third movie, so I was thinking, wow, J.K. Rowling either provided or probably knew about the fact that they were bringing the Knight Bus to life right around the same time she was writing this. And I’m imagining that both scenes – the ones in Book 3 and the ones in Book 5 – were probably utilized to really bring the Knight Bus to life, because I don’t know that the original scene is as hectic or frantic, specifically, as it is in this chapter. So I figured maybe they both had influence on how it showed up in the third film.

Micah: And Stan Shunpike is not a Death Eater yet.

Eric: Yet.

Micah: As far as we know. And there’s no shrunken heads on this version of the Knight Bus either.

Eric: Interesting.

Micah: Think that was just a movie-ism.

Andrew: Right, well, that was, as we know, an Alfonso Cuarón touch.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: Because why not?

Andrew: [imitating shrunken head] “Take it away, Ern!”

Eric: [imitating shrunken head] “Yeah, take it away, Ern.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: So we make our way to Hogwarts finally. The Knight Bus is able to pull into Hogsmeade. They get off and walk up to the castle, and things start up as normal as they can, and there’s this very brief moment between Cho and Harry, and they’re trying to make some plans. At least, Cho is trying to drop some hints to Harry about Valentine’s Day.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And Harry, I think, is just… and Laura, look, I’m not trying to give him a mulligan here, but I think he’s so distracted with everything that’s been going on – particularly focused on his lessons with Snape – that he’s not really picking up on what she’s throwing out there. But he does come through in the end, doesn’t he?

Laura: Yeah, no. And actually, I agree here. I think that for a teenage boy, Harry actually caught on really quickly here. Having had the experience of being a teenage girl and trying to drop these kinds of hints to boys that I liked, it never went this way.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It was usually straight over their head. And that moment where Cho was walking away all disappointed does not get interrupted by the guy suddenly realizing what it is you want, so he did good here.

Andrew: Good job, Harry.

Eric: Well, Harry just didn’t have time to check the notice board with being so distracted. But isn’t it the most Ravenclaw thing ever that Cho is back one day and has already checked and caught up on her notice board that she knows about the Hogsmeade weekend? Very Ravenclaw.

Laura: Well, of course.

Micah: Yeah, very well done on Harry’s part, and it is, like you said, Laura, typical teenage awkwardness happening here. But good on Harry; at least he’s able to get something positive out of this chapter, because it’s about to go to hell from this point forward.

Eric: I just want to shout out to J.K. Rowling, though, because she really does a good job at this awkwardness, right? And it’s just a misunderstanding or a failure of communication, and I think that this happens between… I mean, it’s happened to me much more recently than my teenage years, of trying to communicate with somebody that you like, and it’s just… it’s never easy. It’s never as easy as it should be.

Micah: Absolutely.

Laura: No, you’ve got to find somebody who understands and appreciates your own personal level of awkwardness.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And that’s why dating is hard.

Micah: Right. Like the four of us, we all appreciate each other’s awkwardness.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yes, exactly.

Andrew: I’m not awkward.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Oh, Andrew.

Andrew: No? Yes?

Laura: We’re all a little awkward.

Andrew: Yeah, fine.

Micah: We are.

[pause]

Micah: All right, so let’s talk about Occlumency.

Andrew: [laughs] Yep.

Micah: Speaking of awkwardness, speaking of penetrating people’s minds. And one thing I wanted to start out talking about is that Snape is really the one to give Harry the information that Dumbledore and the rest of the Order have chose not to. Whether directly or indirectly, he is giving Harry more than what Harry has learned probably in the last several months, and I found this really interesting that it’s Snape that’s doing it.

Eric: Yep. I mean, after reading this chapter for this show, again, I’ve concluded that I’m pro-Snape this chapter.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s difficult. It’s really difficult because he goads Sirius and he goads Harry, and he does not make it easy, but Snape is the most forthcoming with all of this information, like you’re saying, and he tells it to Harry. If Harry is not listening, or if Harry is not ready to interpret the information, that’s kind of on Harry. There are things he could do to be softening the blows, but Snape is ultimately laying on the line why it’s important to be having these lessons, and sort of even a timeline of events as such that nobody else is giving him.

Micah: Right. And we learn that Voldemort was possessing Nagini, and therefore so was Harry. And I thought that was a big reveal because for this last couple of weeks for Harry, he’s been thinking that he was directly possessing Nagini.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: But in fact it was Voldemort, and Harry was inside of Voldemort’s mind. So Harry was basically two minds removed from Nagini? I don’t know how that works. But that was a big piece of information. And then also, after the first, let’s call it penetration, by Snape, Harry deduces that the door, the corridor that he’s been seeing all year, is in fact the Department of Mysteries. And he throws this information out to Snape, and Snape kind of does a bit of a double take.

Andrew: Yeah, I was actually surprised how Snape reacted in this moment, like he actually cared about something that Harry was feeling? Normally you don’t see him care so much.

Eric: Right. It’s so interesting when you get into his head, or the fact that Snape sees when it’s happening, when Harry’s brain makes the connection, he lets go of the spell. He’s like, “Wait, what was that?” Because you can kind of feel the emotions as they’re happening, and both characters are forced to witness the memories spilling out, or Snape is only getting flashes or something. But it all feels different. I mean, we’re just experiencing a man in his prime here with Snape. You’re never going to get a better teacher than Snape to teach you this. One does not exist.

Micah: Right. But let’s talk about that, because I have a bit of a problem with a 30-something-year-old teacher penetrating the mind of a 15-year-old teenager…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … who, by the way, just has the utmost disdain for Harry’s dad, for Harry, for anybody in Harry’s circle. So I want to know what in the world is Dumbledore thinking here?

Andrew: Well…

Eric: Dumbledore is thinking Snape is the best.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that. But who else to do it? Dumbledore? Because Dumbledore is even older than Snape.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That’s a 110-year-old penetrating a 15-year-old’s mind. There’s no good answer here, I think, is the problem. But this is just the cards that they’ve been dealt, and this is just what has to be done.

Laura: I also wonder if Dumbledore is viewing these lessons as sort of a conduit for giving Harry this information, because we know Harry has a lot of questions; we know that he wants to ask Dumbledore these questions. I could very much see him telling Snape, “Yo, please make sure that he understands that he was not possessing the snake; Voldemort was, and ergo, he was also in the snake with Voldemort,” and really helping to establish that connection between the two of them, because Dumbledore probably doesn’t want to be the one telling Harry these things and potentially risk Voldemort seeing that Dumbledore knows.

Eric: Right.

Micah: That’s a great point, and we’ll get to something that Snape says later, I think, that makes him the perfect teacher for this. And I’m not arguing that; I do believe that he is the best equipped to do this. However, the fact that he’s not approaching this with probably the practiced hand, from a compassionate standpoint… somebody like Dumbledore probably would be a little bit more… or a little less aggressive than Snape is. And look at the fact that Snape does this three times to Harry, right? We see it three times in this chapter where he’s penetrating his mind, and we know the effects that this has from later on in the chapter. To me, this would be the equivalent of taking a novice boxer, right, who has very little to no experience, and you’re putting them in the ring three times against a pro, and you’re expecting him or her to be able to defend themselves appropriately. It’s just not going to happen.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah. I think the better question is – because it seems like Snape was the only person who could do this – why didn’t Dumbledore say, “Hey, Snape, approach this calmly”? “Teach him the right way. Don’t let your feelings towards Harry and his father get in the way of teaching a good lesson here.” Because half the problem with this first lesson is that Snape is telling Harry to calm down and control his mind, and Snape is aggravating Harry. So Dumbledore should have given him a warning here about how to approach this, because apparently Snape can’t figure this out for himself.

Eric: I agree, Snape absolutely is using this opportunity to take his teaching style to the extreme, because he has long known Harry sucks at Potions; he has no attention to detail, and Snape feels vindicated now that this is something that Harry is going to really need to focus on if he wants to save his own self, his own sanity. He takes this to be justified in terms of Snape’s sense of urgency. He’s just like, “Okay, now you’re going to pay attention. You’re going to get this.” And it just… he’s not giving Harry enough recovery time.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: And he’s not giving Harry enough examples of what it looks like to clear one’s mind before immediately probing it again.

Andrew: Yeah. All Snape is saying is, “Calm your mind, clear your head,” and Harry doesn’t have time to do that. And he wants more information on how to do this, and Snape is just not giving it to him. And it’s also frustrating from a reader standpoint, because we want to know how to practice Occlumency, but we can’t. And I compare this to meditating, because anyone who’s meditated knows that that is not easy to do, and certainly not quickly. And if you have one of these apps like Headspace, they have self-guided meditations available, and they’re ten minutes long, and they’ll be like, in the meditation, “Calm your head. Close your mind. Just relax. Feel the weight of your body. If your mind wanders…”

Micah: Bring the attention back to the body.

Andrew: Yeah, “Bring your attention to the body, to the breath. If your mind wanders, that’s okay. That’s fine. Just refocus again.” Snape is like, “Focus, focus, focus! Ahhh!” He would be obviously a terrible person to teach meditation.

[Eric laughs]

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I will say, to play a little bit of devil’s advocate here, Harry is going to have to become adept at practicing this under situations of pressure. There’s never going to be a real life scenario in which Voldemort is like, “Okay, do you need a minute?”

Andrew: [laughs] “Do you need a minute to focus?”

Laura: “It’s totally cool, totally cool. Take a couple of minutes, take some deep breaths, and then we’ll come back to this.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And I think that’s where Snape is taking this. He’s like, “Listen, kid, when you get out in the real world, there’s going to be none of this mamby-pamby, ‘Sit down and take a few breaths and really center yourself.'”

Andrew: You’re right, you’re right, but for the first time? For the first time, cut him some slack.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I compare this to… I know we wanted to start connecting threads in the middle of the chapter discussion, but if you look back at Book 3 when Lupin was teaching Harry how to do the Patronus Charm. The Patronus Charm is this incredibly special and experienced charm that no teenager can be really expected to do, and certainly not well. And Harry doesn’t do it completely at first, and it even takes him a while. Eventually he does master it, but it’s taxing on Harry’s resources, right? With the Patronus, he’s got to come up with a happy memory that’s powerful enough that’s going to endure, and with Occlumency, he’s got to really clear his mind and also understand what it feels like and witness what it feels like. I think this is what Snape is going for here. Harry has to get used to – kind of like he did with the Imperius Curse, which is brought up – he has to get used to the feeling of somebody actively penetrating his mind so that he can push back. He even produces, I think, a Stinging Jinx or something unexpectedly, because he’s telling Snape to get out, or “You can’t see this.” It’s just he’s got to get used to it so that he can guard against it. It’s the same way with pretty much everything skilled.

Micah: Yeah, totally.

Laura: Yep. Stakes are much higher.

Micah: And it makes me wonder, too, when we were talking about Snape and whether or not he really relishes this opportunity, early on we see him taking memories from his own mind and putting them in the Pensieve, and I wonder why isn’t Harry allowed to do that if there are things that he doesn’t want Snape to see?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I also wonder if Snape is removing maybe some happy memories. I think somebody had this a little bit later on, potentially about Lily, and yet he keeps in his own mind his own worst memory and doesn’t remove that. And I wonder if that is fueling him internally, in a way. Does that make him even angrier? He moves whatever happy memories he has in his mind and leaves the negative ones, and that is part of what he’s channeling on Harry.

Andrew: We don’t know if he’s pulling the happy memories. I think he could be pulling a variety of things – possibly the pact that he made with Dumbledore, his memories of Lily – because he’s afraid Harry might actually be able to penetrate his mind, which is interesting because Snape is acting like there’s no way he’s going to be able to do this. I think he does believe in Harry a little bit. And I also find it rich that Snape is insulting Harry for being weak. There was this quote here: “Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily – weak people, in other words – they stand no chance against his powers!” Yet Snape is removing his own memories from his mind, just in case Harry breaks through any of Snape’s weaknesses.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: It’s like, dude. Hypocrite.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I think actually now it’s more to do with Voldemort being able to see, should Harry get through, what Snape has truly done.

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: So to Eric’s point about the bond that he has formed between himself and Dumbledore, all backhanded stuff that he’s done in lying to Voldemort. And that comes up later, I think, when Snape is talking about those that are practiced Legilimens.

Andrew: I think that’s right, but I think… I think that’s absolutely right, but I also think it’s because Snape is afraid of Harry seeing his love for Lily.

Micah: Possibly.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, Harry is the guy who – again, about the Imperius Curse – is telling Barty Crouch Moody, “No, you know, I don’t think I will dance on the desk. That doesn’t seem right.” He resists the Imperius Charm with next to no skill at all whatsoever, and knowing this – and Snape brings this up – I think he’s expecting to be completely floored and wowed by Harry and his ability to master this. And he’s very disappointed, I think, and that allows him to be a little bit more provoked, too.

Micah: If he can resist Avada Kedavra, I would hope he can resist the Imperius Curse.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Different circumstances.

Micah: That’s, like, one level down.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But the one other thing I just wanted to talk about with Snape and Occlumency is, do we feel that it can be viewed as a form of mental rape? Because you’re penetrating somebody’s mind and you’re getting to see all of their feelings, all of their memories, that maybe they otherwise don’t want you to know about.

Laura: I definitely think that if used improperly this is absolutely a form of violation, and I think that the way Voldemort uses it is violation.

Eric: Oh, absolutely. He’s trying to suss out people who are going to betray him or are not being truthful, and he… I mean, look at what he did with Bertha Jorkins last year. He uncovers – even breaks through – a Memory Charm. And I don’t even want to know how he really did that, but it was through torturous means, no doubt. And yeah, this is a huge violation.

Andrew: Yeah. I also want to include this email from Yesh; they wrote in about this week’s discussion.

“I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Snape is not wrong when he berates Harry for not being able to control his feelings. As we saw in the last chapter, Harry’s mood vanishes instantly when his friends are able to talk sense into him. Once he sees things rationally, he thinks more clearly, he makes better decisions, even his mood improves. Although Snape treats Harry unfairly, he has a point calling Harry weak, because he can’t control his emotions or thoughts. In earlier chapters, Harry behaves almost inhumanly to his friends, and the same way to others in later chapters. It makes him irrational, stupid, and sometimes (in my opinion) thoroughly unlikable. But then, I also think it’s unfair on Harry’s part because he literally has no one to parent him, to treat him honestly as a teenager, or even understand his psychological position. It makes one realize how badly Hogwarts needs a school counselor. I mean, what about Ginny in Chamber of Secrets? Surely just some hot chocolate can’t beat away that trauma? I also find it interesting what Snape says: ‘Fools who wear…’ because it sounds a lot like Snape talking about himself, especially in his time at Hogwarts with the Marauders, or his feelings for Lily. It’s probably the reason why Snape is so good at Occlumency. Just a thought.”

Laura: I like the idea that Snape is referring to himself, at least his younger self, in terms of weakness, because I mean, of course he had feelings for Lily, but he believed that Dumbledore would be able to protect her. He placed all of his faith in other people, in Voldemort maybe not going after her because he asked him not to, in Dumbledore being able to protect her, etc., etc. And I think Snape saw what the effect of that was, and maybe he’s talking a bit about himself when he mentions people wearing their heart on their sleeve.

Eric: Wow, that’s such introspection on Snape’s part. I just assumed he was making a crack at Gryffindors because they’re very outwardly bold and action-y and they have all their emotions upfront, as opposed to the more calm, calculating Slytherin/Ravenclaw type stuff.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s part of it, too, but I think there could be some subtextual reading here.

Eric: Yeah, I like that.

Micah: Well, speaking of Snape referring to himself, there’s a great quote here where he’s talking about Voldemort, and he says, “The Dark Lord […] almost always knows when somebody is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection.” So this, to me, is a massive reveal that’s just spoken in passing by Snape, because Snape is talking about himself.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Why is Snape teaching this lesson, Harry?

Micah: He just told you he can lie to Voldemort’s face and get away with it.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: “This is why I’m good, yo.” I guess if Harry thought about this – which he clearly didn’t – but if Harry thought about this, maybe he was like, “Ooh, maybe he’s lying to Dumbledore. Oh my gosh. I figured it out.”

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Harry would have argued that he was using these skills against Dumbledore.

Eric: That’s a really good point.

Andrew: But yeah, this is a really big reveal, and it’s a shame that Harry doesn’t think on it at all.

Micah: I’m trying to remember if this really empowered the “Snape is good” camp when Order of the Phoenix was published.

Eric: Maybe or maybe not, because we know that Snape eventually does stop teaching Harry; he refuses to teach him after the umpteenth outburst. But it is a shame that the two of these were never meant to see eye to eye, right? Snape is there telling him “Empty your emotions,” and Harry, in return, glares at him. It just was never really meant to work out, unfortunately.

Micah: Right.

Eric: But it’s thrilling to see the master at work.

Micah: I’ve often wondered, too, if that was part of Dumbledore’s intention to try and at least calm the waters between these two and bring them into a setting where basically Snape is teaching Harry how to survive, and Harry just does not want to really hear any of it. He’s the typical angsty teenager here. But Snape also throws some more information Harry’s way, and it reminded me a lot of Hermione when he’s talking about Voldemort being really able to penetrate Hogwarts and get inside and be able to transport Harry from Hogwarts to the Ministry, and he says that, “The Dark Lord is at a considerable distance and the walls and grounds of Hogwarts are guarded by many ancient spells and charms to ensure the bodily and mental safety of those who dwell within them. Time and space matter in magic, Potter. Eye contact is often essential to Legilimency.” And this, just to me, speaks to Harry’s inattention to detail. This is why Snape comes up with remedial potions. It reminds me, like I said, of Hermione talking so often about how you can’t Apparate within Hogwarts.

Andrew: Well, that’s all fine, but Harry still did see through the snake, so he has reason to ask this question to Snape.

Micah: But I think Snape is telling him to be practical, and I know that’s hard, given what Harry has experienced. And again, he’s only 15 years old, but he’s saying, “Be a little bit more…”

Andrew: Nuanced.

Eric: Open-minded?

Micah: Yeah, exactly.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think reason, right? It’s about understanding what’s happening, and Harry just doesn’t want to pay attention to detail.

Eric: It is such a shame because Lupin, again, with a different teaching style, a slightly different approach… Harry is no less traumatized by having to see or hear his parents’ death when he sees and hears a Dementor, but he has the motivation to get better because he’s got Lupin, who genuinely cares about his past. And I guess with Harry, it’s all a violation to Harry when Snape is able to see even the dog chasing him up the tree. These are still memories that feel stolen. These are still moments that Snape really shouldn’t have access to. And I think Harry bristles at the very idea that something a little bit more private that he cares about, like him and Cho, would be seen so clearly by this spectator, by this person.

Micah: Yeah. It seems like Snape really likes Aunt Marge.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Or really likes Ripper. One of the two.

Andrew: That was kind of weird that Snape asked that.

Eric: Well, just… it shows what he’s seeing. It’s super clear. Like, “Oh my God, Snape saw a dog.”

Andrew: Yeah, but why does Snape care?

Eric: He just is making conversation. I think he’s being a good teacher in that moment. He’s like, “Yeah, I saw it all. I saw flashes of it. Who’s the dog?”

Andrew: “And who’s the girl?”

Micah: “Who’s the lady?” Yeah, that’s also another connecting the threads to Prisoner of Azkaban. So wanted to talk a little bit about what does Voldemort know about Harry at this point?

Eric: Yeah, it’s a good question because Snape tells Harry that up until now, Voldemort was unaware of this particular connection, but now I’m thinking the only way that this connection can exist, especially given that Voldemort was possessing Nagini, and Harry saw into his mind when he was possessing Nagini – Nagini, who is a known Horcrux of Voldemort’s – I have no choice but to believe that Voldemort should at this point know that Harry himself is a Horcrux. Unintended, maybe, but it’s the same magic at play here, and I think that it should be very obvious to Voldemort right now. What do you guys think?

Laura: I think Voldemort has too much hubris to believe in this, to believe that he unintentionally created a Horcrux.

Andrew: I agree with that. He couldn’t have made a mistake; there’s no way. And his plan has come together exactly as he intended. Harry is not a Horcrux.

Eric: But didn’t Voldemort…? I mean, talking about what J.K. Rowling has said afterwards, didn’t Voldemort go to Godric’s Hollow that night with the intention of killing this child that was prophesied and making a Horcrux out of him? He had already done the prep work of whatever that entails to make Harry a Horcrux, which is why, when it backfired and Harry ends up inadvertently becoming a Horcrux, why is anybody surprised by this? At least I think so.

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I tend to agree with what Laura said, because Voldemort continues to try and kill Harry. He doesn’t back off of it. And if that were the case, and he knew Harry was a Horcrux, he doesn’t need to go after him. He doesn’t need to touch him.

Eric: Right.

Micah: As long as Harry lives, he lives, so everything that happens in the Forbidden Forest in Deathly Hallows didn’t even need to happen, right? Why hit him with Avada Kedavra? It destroyed the Horcrux. So yeah, I just think right now, Voldemort is still very much in search of answers. He clearly is taking full advantage of the fact that they’re connected, but I don’t necessarily know if he realizes that they’re connected via this Horcrux. It may just be other magic, or could even be the prophecy, right? That’s why he’s after the prophecy in this book; he wants to better understand what Harry means to him.

Eric: Good point.

Andrew: You could say it was a flaw in the plan.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: You could say that if it were Harry’s birthday right now, it would be the worst birthday.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And Laura, you had a great point here about maybe Voldemort is just hoping to possess Harry.

Laura: Yeah, at this point in the story Harry even wonders this, like, “Am I the weapon?” But I could very much see Voldemort hoping to possess Harry in order to get him to… because he’s so trusted on the good side of things, in order to get him to participate in nefarious activities, similar to what he did to Ginny Weasley.

Andrew: If I was Voldemort, I would just be very excited by this connection to Harry, so I could always check in on what Harry is doing. Snape holding this lesson with Harry was still a huge risk.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: I don’t know if Voldemort would be very happy if he saw Snape teaching this, even if Voldemort thinks that Snape is secretly working against Dumbledore.

Micah: That’s a fair point too.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, having this connection is like picking up the phone and listening to somebody’s conversation.

Micah: [laughs] Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, people who do that are definitely Dark Lords.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Andrew the Dark Lord.

Andrew: Don’t say my name!

Micah: Don’t tweet me and ask me questions about that video game.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: We talked a little bit earlier, though, about how this is really the equivalent of putting a novice boxer in the ring against a pro, and what I don’t really think Snape or Dumbledore – particularly Dumbledore – considered was the effect this was going to have on Harry after each lesson, right?

Andrew: Yeah, his poor brain.

Micah: Think about what Lupin did. Lupin provided Harry with chocolate, right? Every time they had these lessons. Because it’s very similar to Prisoner of Azkaban, right? Harry would be drained after fighting the Dementor. He’s drained after this encounter with Snape, and Snape doesn’t do anything. Snape probably had could whip up a cocktail potion for him.

Eric: Oooh.

Micah: He’d be feeling really good afterwards, and he chooses not to. I wonder if Dumbledore instructed Snape to do this and Snape just chose not to.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess you could say that… oh, you’re saying Dumbledore instructed him to give him some sort of cocktail after?

Micah: A pick-me-up, yeah.

Eric: A potion for mental fortitude.

Andrew: Maybe, or Dumbledore could have said, “Don’t do that, and let Harry…”

Micah: “Let Harry suffer.”

Andrew: “… feel the effects of this so he’s more prepared.” I know, let Harry suffer. Let Harry suffer more. Snape should have at least given him a head massage. That could have been a little helpful.

Eric: [laughs] “Come here, Potter.”

Andrew: You know when you’re getting your hair cut and they wash your hair for you, and then they give you a head massage while they wash your hair? That’s what Snape should have done for Harry.

Laura: [laughs] Can you imagine walking in on that scene and being like, “Ooo-kay.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But so I have a question here: Should Dumbledore have anticipated this and stated that Harry needed to spend the night in the hospital wing for observation, or something along those lines?

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: You have to think that if Dumbledore did stipulate something, Snape would have followed through with it. He wouldn’t not listen to Dumbledore, right?

Micah: That’s true.

Eric: Right, I think there’s a line there. But Dumbledore still thinks he can treat Harry like any other teenager and let him in the general population of other students, right? I mean, if Dumbledore ever tried to isolate Harry even further than he’s already isolated him by not talking with him, Harry would flip.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Totally. I think that it’s just oversight on the part of Dumbledore. We see at the end of this chapter just how pale Harry is; it’s noted by all of his friends. He can’t even do his homework. He tries to get up to bed and passes out on the staircase. Again, think about something, some sort of physical activity that you do for the first time, and you get tasked with it three times over. Like I said, boxing; you get your head knocked off, and you’re not going to go and get proper treatment afterwards? It’s just really cruel. I put more of the blame on Dumbledore than I do on Snape, for not thinking through this particular situation. So we’re almost at the end of the chapter here; just a couple more things to touch on. Andrew, I think you had in here Snape asking Harry not to say Voldemort’s name. Why?

Andrew: Yeah, why? And Snape rubs his arm where his Dark Mark is, and I’m wondering, was Snape afraid that this was going to alert Voldemort to their meeting?

Micah: Possibly.

Andrew: He’d be able to check in on Harry and then see Snape and be like, “WTF?”

Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Andrew: [imitating Voldemort] “What are you doing with Harry?!”

Laura: Giving him a scalp massage.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Just giving him a head massage. [laughs] Any ideas for why he rubbed his arm? Did it hurt to hear Voldemort’s name?

Eric: I think it does. I think that there might be a part of Snape that really actually hates being a Death Eater…

Andrew: Mm, that’s interesting.

Eric: … and Snape is very much, I think, not to overuse the word, but triggered, right? By Voldemort. And he also, when Harry asks, “Why not? Dumbledore says the name,” Snape is like, “But Dumbledore is, like, the best wizard that ever lived.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Because I love him! Because I made a deal with him! He can do whatever he wants.”

Eric: “You’re just a piss-ant 15-year-old. You can’t say his name.”

Andrew: Does Snape hate Harry’s courage?

Micah: That’s a great question.

Eric: That’s a good question. I think Snape hates everything that he sees that reminds him of James.

Micah: Right.

Eric: Courage probably included.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I do think there’s a part of Snape that really dislikes Voldemort, particularly for what he did to Lily. And I also just think there’s this inherent fear amongst everyone in saying Voldemort’s name. It surprises me that Snape is one of those people. But yeah, I do think there’s something to the fact that you just raised, Andrew, about Harry having this courage that Snape… I also just think it’s like a kid thing in some way, right? Kids, a lot of times they just don’t have that same kind of fear. It just rolls off them. There’s a lack of understanding, and so the fear isn’t as real.

Andrew: I would agree with that, but obviously the kids in Hogwarts don’t like saying his name.

Micah: But they were raised that way. Harry wasn’t raised that way. Harry didn’t even know about Voldemort until his 11th birthday.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah. I think also, Snape for a very long time was a legitimate Death Eater, and now he’s having to play the part of one. Death Eaters also don’t say Voldemort’s name; they call him the Dark Lord, and this could just be a conditioning thing on that side of the war as well.

Micah: Totally. The chapter wraps up in Harry having a full mental breakdown after his sessions with Snape, and Voldemort is extremely, extremely happy, and Harry’s scar is burning at a level that we probably haven’t seen before. It’s completely debilitating him. And I know we’re going to find out, probably in the next chapter, why Voldemort is so happy, but it’s very scary for Harry, and this is probably happening at this level because his defenses are so low because of everything he’s just been through, and he’s not sure how to respond to it.

Andrew: And because his defenses are so low, he’s laughing. He’s smiling, right?

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: Voldemort’s hysterical laughter is being emitted through Harry, and I really wish this was something we saw in the movie.

Andrew: Did Snape and Dumbledore anticipate this? I don’t think so.

Micah: Now, in the movie, it’s because of the mass breakout from Azkaban. Is that what’s coming in the book too?

Andrew: Yeah, literally the next chapter.

Eric: Yep, the very…

Micah: Got it. I didn’t read ahead, so…

Andrew: You should cheat and flip ahead from time to time. It can be helpful. [laughs]

Eric: But in terms of Harry being possessed, Laura, like what you said, I think they do enough of that towards the end of the Ministry, Harry looking very deathly sick.

Laura: Yeah, I just feel like this was such a good scene that really set that up, and in the movie it was sort of like, “Oh, Harry looks sick, and he’s talking but Voldemort’s voice is coming out of his mouth.”

Micah: Right.

Andrew: When you read that part about Harry just giving the Voldemort laugh, I think of that really awful smile that Voldemort gives during the Deathly Hallows movie. I would not want to see Harry grin and smile and laugh like that. That would freak me out.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: When he hugs Draco.

Andrew: Exactly.

Laura: Oh no. [laughs] “Well done, Draco.”

Andrew: So crazy.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: One other thing I wanted to call out – which is very small and unrelated to any of this – but when Harry gets back to the Gryffindor common room, the Weasley twins are at it again with what are to become Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes products, and Hermione notes the fact of how smart they must be to be able to get some of these things to work. And Fred actually… I forget what the name of it is; it’s some sort of invisibility hat, right? Does anybody remember?

Andrew: Yes. Well, that’s what it does.

Micah: Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that Fred is the one who’s demonstrating it and his head disappears, and we all know what happens to Fred in Deathly Hallows.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: Another omen.

Micah: More foreshadowing on the part of J.K. Rowling.

Andrew: Does he get hit in the head in Deathly Hallows?

Micah: Well, no, he just makes his head disappear.

Andrew: No, no, I mean…

Micah: Oh, no, I mean, I don’t know exactly what happens to him. We just know that he’s killed.

Eric: They’re called Headless Hats.

Micah: Headless Hats, there you go. But anyway, that wraps up the chapter, and it was a pretty intense one.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Micah: A lot of stuff happening.

Andrew: And there’s other elements I’d like to talk about later on. This doesn’t really relate to Occlumency exactly, but Snape removing those memories from his head. Can he no longer think about them when you remove them? I wonder about things like that. I was wondering while reading this chapter, but we could talk about that later. Before we check in on the Umbridge Suck count, I want to tell you about our second sponsor this week.

[Ad break]

Andrew: It’s time for the Umbridge Suck count.

Micah: First one up is giving the students a ream of homework when they get back to Hogwarts. Come on, Professor. Let them ease into the new term.

Eric: Yeah. It’s the only time Umbridge is mentioned in this chapter, is she she gave them a ream of homework.

Laura: Ehh…

Andrew: Laura, you disagree?

Laura: No, I think that’s actually not a great practice for the beginning of a term.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: So you agree she sucks for it.

Laura: Yes, I do agree.

Andrew: Okay.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: Okay, so what’s the wisdom behind not…? Because I think where Umbridge… or any teacher, because I’ve had teachers that do this, too; they want you to be like, “Okay, your break is over. Bring your mind back.” And they give you a huge assignment to re-fire all the neurons. You’re saying that’s not a good practice?

Laura: I never agreed when I was teaching. Not to say that you shouldn’t give people homework, but you can ease people in.

Micah: Yeah. Look, there are levels of sucking, right?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I mean, we can’t be discriminatory here. You can suck for giving a lot of homework, and you can suck for Educational Decrees and for physically abusing people, right? All which Umbridge does. I mean, it’s just a matter of perspective, but I think they’re all reasons for her to suck.

Laura: Agreed.

Andrew: How about this other one?

Laura: I said for causing Harry to have to say he’s taking remedial potions. He has to say this just so that she will not catch on to what he’s doing.

Andrew: And now he’s the laughing stock of the school!

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: He sucks so much at potions, he’s got to take extra potion lessons.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: Who was it? Ernie Macmillan, who was an ass-hat to him? Or Justin?

Laura: Oh, I thought it was Zacharias.

Micah: Oh, him too. Yeah.

Eric: Zacharias Smith, yeah.

Micah: All those Hufflepuffs.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, y’all are supposed to be nice. What happened?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, you rub a… they’ll cut you if you cross them.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You poke a badger.

Eric: Yeah, like the honey badger.

Laura: And it’ll cut you?

Eric: Yeah. Cross a badger, it’ll cut you.

Micah: Like a Tiger King.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I don’t know.

Laura: Almost made it a full episode. Almost did it. [laughs]


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, now it’s time for Connecting the Threads. I wanted to kick this off with a thread that is not specific to this chapter, but just something that is a generic connection between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix that I just noticed when I was paging through the end of Prisoner of Azkaban while preparing for this. After Buckbeak escapes and Sirius also escapes, Percy Weasley is outraged, and he’s in the Great Hall telling his girlfriend, Penelope Clearwater, “If I manage to get into the Ministry, I’ll have a lot of proposals to make about Magical Law Enforcement!” And we see in this book, and even more so in the next book, that he is living up to these earlier promises. So actually, this is another example of why we shouldn’t really be surprised about Percy ending up where he’s ended up. This foreshadowing has been going on for quite a while.

Micah: Wow.

Laura: Then of course, there are a lot of connections to make with the Knight Bus, and we’ll start with Madam Marsh. So we know in Order of the Phoenix they let her off before dropping the trio and the rest of the Weasley siblings at Hogwarts because Madam Marsh was sick; she just wasn’t feeling her best. Well, she was actually in Prisoner of Azkaban as well. Ern says, “Best go wake up Madam Marsh, Stan. We’ll be in Abergavenny in a minute.” So she apparently rides the Knight Bus a lot.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Frequent user. Give me more bumps. Give me more sudden stops.

Laura: But also, I’m like, if it’s emergency transport for the stranded or lost wizard, what’s she doing?

Andrew: Yeah, right. [laughs]

Micah: She just likes… she’s a regular… well, I guess that’s true, then. She’s not technically a commuter, right? Unless she’s taking it to work every day or something.

Laura: Yeah, but I looked up Abergavenny – and I hope I’m saying this correctly – it’s in Wales.

Andrew: Huh.

Laura: So that’s quite a commute.

Micah: You’re just saying she’s a freeloader, huh?

Laura: [laughs] She’s paying her 11 Sickles just like everyone else, presumably.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And then we have this nice little connection with Stan and his acceptance of what the Daily Prophet publishes. So in Prisoner of Azkaban, he’s talking about Sirius Black and saying, “‘Cos he’s mad, inee, Ern? Inee mad?” And then in Order of the Phoenix, talking about Harry and how Harry has been portrayed in the Daily Prophet, he says, “I said to Ern, I said, ‘e didn’t seem like a nutter when we met ‘im, just goes to show, dunnit?'” And I thought this was a really interesting comparison between the ways that Harry and Sirius are perceived in the wizarding world between these two books. Then Sirius has these secret gifts that he’s giving Harry. In Prisoner of Azkaban it’s the Firebolt, and in Order of the Phoenix, it’s the two-way mirror, both of which… well, both of which would come in handy, were they both used.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: I made my own Firebolt as a kid. I used to love the Firebolt.

Micah: Did you?

Andrew: Like a class project? I don’t know what the prompt was but I decided to make a Firebolt for that assignment, and I spray painted it gold, and I had a carrying case for it. It rocked.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: Yeah, I wish I still had that.

Laura: Did you run around with it? Did you ride it?

Andrew: Of course I did. Yeah, and I made it vibrate. It did everything.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You still do.

[Andrew laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Sirius for that two-way mirror Laura just mentioned, since it comes in handy later.

Eric: I’m going to give mine to Snape for telling Harry amazingly useful things, if only he’d listen to them all.

Micah: Mine goes to Mr. Weasley for effectively breaking up that skirmish between Sirius and Snape.

Laura: Mine goes to Hermione for naturally filling a role that Dumbledore and Snape should have foreseen a need for, by asking Ron to go and check on Harry after he goes up to his dormitory.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, “Relax, [censored]!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, “I’m a Legilimens, Not a Mind-Reader!”

Micah: Well, that sets up mine. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, “You Read My Mind.”

Eric: Aww.

Laura: And mine is Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 24, “Worst Meditation Class Ever.”

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion or you have a question about Chapter 25, send it on in to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also record a voice memo and send that to MuggleCast@gmail.com. By the way, we’re not done discussing this chapter yet. In bonus MuggleCast today, which is available over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, we will discuss why Occlumency, why Legilimency, is not mind reading. Right, Eric?

Eric: That’s right; we’re going even deeper in depth into what Snape is talking about. Other examples that we’ve seen, whether Dumbledore, Voldemort are reading minds… all that stuff. Deep dive over in bonus MuggleCast.

Andrew: And J.K. Rowling actually addressed why what Queenie is doing is different than what Snape was saying is not possible. We’ll try to parse that and figure out what that tweet really meant from J.K. Rowling a few years ago.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Cool.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: Who teases Harry first about taking remedial potions? The answer was, of course – who else? – that Hufflepuff, Zacharias Smith. Ugh. Anyway, correct answers were submitted by Caleb, Samwise Potter Skywalker, Sara a.k.a. Weensie; Megos, Stacy, Count Ravioli, William Walton, and Jenny Beez.

Laura: Always good to see Count Ravioli there.

Eric: Always good. [laughs] Next week’s question: What does Hagrid instruct Harry to put on the salamanders of Hogwarts? Send in your answers to us over on Twitter at MuggleCast, hashtag Quizzitch.

Andrew: Another salamander appearance. J.K. Rowling loves those salamanders. All right, thank you, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. Don’t forget to follow us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. By following us, you will stay up to date on the latest developments concerning MuggleCast, and you’ll probably be one of the first to hear about our next round of Quizzitch Live. So again, that’s username MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. And again, we would love your support on Patreon, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We really appreciate your support; it keeps the show running, rocking, and rolling, and we’re able to invest in really cool things, like this whole trivia system that we have for Quizzitch Live. So thank you, thank you, thank you to everybody who is pledging. And you get lots of benefits like bonus MuggleCast. You’ll be able to sit in on our recordings; we livestream every episode as we are recording it, and you can tune in on Saturday or Sunday morning. And you will get a personalized “Thank you” message from one of the four MuggleCasters. All right, thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura. See ya.

Andrew and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #460

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #460, Loony Lockhart (OOTP 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m J… [laughs] Oh my God, I almost said J.K. Rowling.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah Tannenbaum: I thought you were going to say Joe Exotic.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura Tee: Just do it. Just lean in to it.

Andrew: [in an English accent] I am J.K. Rowling. [back to normal voice] I’m Andrew. Sims.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Andrew: I forget this whole intro.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, pretty sure I’m Eric. I’m not sure. That’s subject to change.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We’re going to start today’s episode with an exciting announcement. We had a live version of Quizzitch a couple weeks ago, and we’re going to do it again this week, this Thursday, April 9. Our stream will start at 7:15 p.m. eastern, and the game itself will begin at 7:30 p.m. eastern. It’s going to be a lot of fun. This round of Quizzitch Live will be all fandom-based. I’m calling it Quizzitch Live: The Fandom of Secrets.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Get it?

Micah: That’s well done. I like that.

Andrew: Oh, thank you so much. Laura and I are developing the questions now; it’s been a lot of fun.

Laura: Yeah, so I feel like I’ve kind of taken a time machine back through all of the major happenings in the fandom. It’s been a nice little walk down memory lane.

Andrew: Yeah!

Micah: “In what hotel did Laura leave her pants?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Not sure that’ll be a question.

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: It will be mainly broader Harry Potter fandom questions. It’s going to be a nice trip down memory lane, and I’m sure in between the questions we’ll be reminiscing about the good old days, so hopefully that warms everyone up.

Micah: I will say, Andrew, that whole Quizzitch Live was so much fun. Almost two weeks ago at this point; I feel like all the days just blend together now. But I really think that people enjoyed it. It was a nice escape for them, but also for us.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Micah: And how are you faring with Laura coming up with these questions? Because I know we talked about this during our hangout, but the questions themselves aren’t necessarily what’s challenging to come up with; it’s the other three choices that you need to try and trick people with.

Andrew: Right. I think it’s all fun, coming up with the questions and the answers. I don’t think it’s too difficult. Maybe I’m just a better quiz writer, Micah, than you are. I don’t know.

Micah: You could be.

Laura: [laughs] Ouch.

Micah: Is Fudge going to join us this week?

Andrew: Yes, yes, Fudge will be here.

Eric: Yay.

Andrew: Fudge is booked. So again, this is this Thursday, April 9. You might need two devices to get the full experience, because you’ll need one window open to play the quiz and another to tune into our livestream. If you only have access to one device, one mobile device, you probably will just need to stick with playing the game itself, but you can always watch our stream after the fact. Anyway, that’s going to be a lot of fun, so join us this Thursday.

Micah: Are they just fandom questions, or will you throw in a book question, movie question…?

Andrew: There will be questions… it’s not going to be the same type of quiz as last time. It’s not going to be questions about the plot, I don’t think, unless we’re referencing maybe a J.K. Rowling interview in which she said something about a plot point, like, “Where did J.K. Rowling reveal that Dumbledore is gay?” Maybe something like that.

Eric: Right, right. How best can people study for this?

Andrew: Um…

Laura: Google.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Go to Archive.org, type in MuggleNet.com in the Wayback Machine, and start browsing 15 years of news stories. [laughs]

Eric: Okay! All right.

Andrew: I’m not saying that’s how I’m getting my questions, but that’s how… that would be probably the only way…

Micah: But that’s how you’re getting your questions.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, it’s truly not. It’s seriously not. I’m just sitting here and reflecting on the old days and coming up with things. [laughs]

Eric: That seems easy enough.

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I’m doing.

Micah: This is cool. I’m looking forward to this. I might play.

Andrew: Mm… I don’t know, I feel like that’s a conflict of interest.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Oh, is it?

Andrew: I mean, you could play along as you’re cohosting, I guess.

Micah: Yeah, but just don’t have the Excel document with the answers, and it opened probably is not a good idea.

Andrew: Right as you’re playing, yeah. So anyway, Quizzitch Live: The Fandom of Secrets, this Thursday, April 9. Stream starts at 7:15 p.m. eastern, and the game will begin at 7:30 p.m. eastern. This is free for everybody; you do not have to be a patron. This will be open to the public, so we hope to see you there.

Eric: Directly following TigerCast Live.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: We’re all into Tiger King.


Personality Quiz


Andrew: J.K. Rowling has been back on Twitter, as we’ve touched on a couple of times, and she shared this personality quiz that she took over at OpenPsychometrics.org/Tests/Characters and she shared her results. And it’s really interesting because this quiz tells you which fictional characters you are most like. And we all took this quiz ourselves, since J.K. Rowling took it, and we saw a lot of our friends taking it as well, and what’s cool is that you can actually drill down and only see the Harry Potter characters that you match with. And this test is asking questions like “Are you more indulgent or sober? Cheery or sorrowful? Playful or serious?” And there’s 28 of these questions, and you just bring the slider left or right and you select which you are closer to. Let’s talk about our results. What do you all get?

Eric: Well, I mean, I think it’s important to say that J.K. Rowling got 81% Albus Dumbledore.

Andrew: Oh, yes.

Eric: Which I find hilarious because Dumbledore is very much the vessel by which she communicates directly to the readers in the Harry Potter books.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: More so than any other one character.

Micah: Do you think, though, that that was her highest percentage overall, or that was just for Harry Potter? Because when I took the quiz, my highest percentage was not a Harry Potter character.

Eric and Laura: Same.

Micah: And I thought I was going to have to do the quiz over. I was like, “Oh, crap. I clicked the wrong link or I missed the dropdown.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But then I saw you can select from all these different series, so I wonder if Dumbledore really was her highest percentage character.

Andrew: Well, what was your highest percentage? Because she got 81%; my highest was 77.

Micah: Oooh.

Eric: Yeah, mine was 84.

Micah: Okay. My highest percentage, it was 87%; it was Leonard from The Big Bang Theory.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That is awesome.

Laura: My highest percentage… I was 82% Lady Edith Crawley from Downton Abbey.

Micah: Nice.

Andrew: Oh my gosh! Do you watch that show?

Laura: No, so I have no idea what that means. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh my gosh, you hid that you had a baby. Wow, I didn’t know that.

Laura: Oh. Yeah, that’s fair.

Micah: That’s part of the pants story that we just didn’t continue.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, God.

Laura: I would love to know how that fits into that story.

Eric: My highest percentage is 89, actually.

Micah: Wow.

Eric: Yeah. Hoban Washburn, “Wash,” from Firefly.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Followed closely by Kaylee Frye, Kaylee from Firefly. But my top Harry Potter character – next to Hurley from Lost – George Weasley, and then Arthur Weasley.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: So two of the more…

Micah: It gives you two?

Eric: Well, George is 84% and Arthur is 83%, and then Tonks is also 83%.

Andrew: So my top, at 77%, was a Harry Potter character. It was Tonks.

Eric: There you go!

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: Which kind of surprised me.

Eric: That’s cool. You should just go around now saying “Wotcher” to all of us.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That actually makes sense to me.

Andrew: Does it? Does it? I didn’t really expect it. I feel like I don’t know Tonks well enough, but now I want to study her more and see these connections that this quiz made. And then George Weasley, Rita Skeeter…

Laura: Oh!

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: A journalist.

Andrew: Ouch.

Eric: They got you nailed, dude.

Andrew: Right, but there was no journalism questions.

Eric: [laughs] Not directly.

Andrew: Then Sirius, and Harry Potter.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Cool.

Laura: So my number one Harry Potter character was – and I have very mixed feelings about this – Cho Chang.

Micah: Nice.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: What does that mean?

Eric: Ravenclaw.

Laura: And then I got Filius Flitwick, Fleur Delacour, Albus Dumbledore, and Hermione Granger.

Andrew: Yeah, Dumbledore should definitely be up there for you.

Laura: What, because I’m a psycho?

Andrew: No, because you’re wise!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: You’re wise and well-spoken and calm. Dumbledore is… I only match 50% with him, which, I guess I can take that.

Eric: Yeah, it’s the good half. It’s the gay half.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I was just going to say, yeah, we matched on our gayness and nothing else.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, Andrew, I match 69% with Albus Dumbledore, so take that for what you will.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: Oh, nice. Nice.

Eric: You know who else matched 69%? This Lord Voldemort fan account – another one, Lorde with an E Voldemort – tweeted J.K. Rowling that he got 69% Harry Potter, so I thought that was hilarious.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, well, that’s almost 70% Horcrux, isn’t it?

Eric: Yeah. J.K. Rowling is really interacting with these fan accounts lately. It’s pretty interesting to see.

Micah: So on my end, I was actually surprised, too. Laura, you mentioned him, but my highest match, 86%, was Professor Flitwick.

Eric: Nice!

Laura: Oh, there we go. Ravenclaws in the house.

Micah: Followed by Cho Chang.

Laura: Ohh! Are we the same person, Micah?

Micah: I think we are.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Then Hermione Granger, Minerva McGonagall, and Albus Dumbledore.

Eric: All good company.

Micah: With Slughorn actually not that far behind Dumbledore. But I was actually most impressed by the Game of Thrones one, which was Samwell Tarly. I felt that was a nice…

Laura: Hey, that was my number one for Game of Thrones too!

Micah: Oh, boy.

Laura: Oh my God.

Andrew: You two are the same person.

Laura: I know! My mind is exploding right now.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: But I find it interesting; isn’t Flitwick Head of Ravenclaw House?

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: So we’re both Ravenclaws. I think this just proves it.

Andrew: So you can take this quiz for yourself. It’s a lot of fun; it’s like a Buzzfeed quiz on steroids. We’ll have a link in our show notes.


News


Andrew: Speaking of J.K. Rowling, she launched Harry Potter at Home. Did we talk about this last week? I guess not.

Eric: Yeah, we mentioned the launch, but there was nothing other than the audiobook, I think.

Micah: No.

Andrew: Oh, that’s it. Okay.

Micah: It launched during the week. We mentioned it during one of our coffee chat hangouts.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: Right, and these weeks are eternities now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So yeah, HarryPotterAtHome.com. Nothing to excite us very much. This is more for people who might be reading Harry Potter with their kids for the first time; there’s some introductions to the books and the characters, kind of like reading companions. So it’s nice to see that she’s doing this, but not really of interest to us, not something we could use. Of note, though, Stephen Fry’s reading of Philosopher’s Stone is available for free on Audible and elsewhere, so if you’re looking for an audiobook, you can listen to Stephen Fry’s reading of the first one for free. Eric said they should have named it HarryPottersHouse.com.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: That’s nice, Eric. My old fan site. They could have because…

Micah: Do you still own that?

Andrew: No, and Warner Bros. does now, so they actually could have done that if they wanted to.

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: Oh. They took it from you?

Andrew: Yeah, they stole it from a teenager.

Micah: Did they pay you?

Andrew: No, of course not.

Micah: Oh, that is just…

Eric: Andrew is sitting on a healthy sum.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, instead of Harry Potter at Home, Harry Potter’s House! Just be like, “Yeah, come on over to…” But I guess people shouldn’t go out, so it sends the wrong message.

Andrew: When 11-year-old me was buying that domain name, I just had a feeling that one day they would need a domain name like that, and yes, I did sell it to them for $2 million.

Micah: Wow. That’s how you’re living in that luxury condo in Chicago.

Andrew: Luxury condo. [laughs]

Micah: But it’s funny because during the week, I had a coworker who Slacked me that J.K. Rowling had just announced Harry Potter at Home, and said that she stole the idea from me because we actually at work launched a series called Junior NBA at Home, which is at-home basketball drills and exercises that kids can do.

Andrew: Nice.

Micah: And so clearly she is needing to offer some royalties, I think, for this idea.

Andrew: [sighs] Okay, all right, the NBA started everybody staying at home. J.K. Rowling stole from the NBA. I get it, Micah.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: No, but I wonder how long this was in development and how quickly they fast-tracked it, because this seems like something that they probably would have eventually rolled out anyway, so I think maybe their hand got forced a little bit by everything that’s been going on.

Andrew: Maybe, yeah.

Micah: Because it doesn’t seem all that complete to me.

Andrew: Well, yeah, so that would tell you that maybe they kind of rushed it, but rightfully so. I mean, just create something quick with some resources for people who are reading Harry Potter for the first time.

Micah: Yeah, I think it’s great. I know there’s some games and puzzles in addition to the Stephen Fry Sorcerer’s Stone, so it is actually really cool for kids.

Andrew: Of interest to all of us, the Beedle the Bard audiobook is now available. We mentioned this previously; it features Evanna Lynch, Jude Law, Warwick Davis, Bonnie Wright, and other actors. Eric, I think you’re the only one who’s listened to it, right?

Eric: Yeah, it’s 94 minutes. It just came out the other day; it’s a really quick read. As you know, the Beedle the Bard book was not that large, but it’s really well done. Of note is that there’s sound effects that go along with every story, so you’ve got these all-star casts reading the stories, but then you also have just extra little sound effects that put you in the world of each of the characters of each of Beedle the Bard’s stories. And then also just the way they’ve switched off between various actors, like for instance, Jude Law as Dumbledore – whose, Dumbledore’s notes are all throughout the book – comes back at the end of every chapter or at the end of every story to talk, and it switches between his notes and whenever J.K. Rowling… I had forgotten J.K. Rowling actually directly addresses people. That’s read by Sally Mortimer, who played, as we found out, Madam Pince in the Harry Potter films. She didn’t really get any lines or anything in the Harry Potter films. I now want, listening to this, a Madam Pince miniseries. I think it would be great.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: What kind of miniseries? What are you looking for?

Eric: Just hanging out in the library doing administrative stuff, helping students out. It just… she seems like a nice woman.

Micah: Sounds…

Andrew: Sounds really boring.

Micah: … exciting, yeah.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You’ve got to spice it up; some restricted section activity or…

Eric: Eh, yeah, maybe.

Andrew: The Tales of Beedle the Bard audiobook is now available on Audible, so please check that out. And finally, just wanted to mention – Eric caught this – that the Lego Harry Potter collection on PlayStation 4 is only $6 right now.

Laura: Wow.

Andrew: Super cheap.

Eric: Yeah, we’re talking mega cheap. This is not only Years 1-4, but Years 5-7 as well. Both LEGO games.

Andrew: Yeah, they’ve done this recently; they combined both games into one. It’s also available for Nintendo Switch and Xbox, but I looked at Switch and they still list it for $20, so I think PlayStation is doing a special deal. Yeah, $6 is very well worth it. Micah and Eric – and maybe you, too, Laura – are obsessed with that Lego Harry Potter game.

Laura: Actually, I’ve got the LEGO games for… I’ve got the Marvel and Star Wars ones, but I don’t have the Harry Potter ones, which I’m going to be downloading as soon as we finish this episode.

Andrew: This is your chance.

Eric: Laura, this is your time. I would go so far as to say this is deal of the decade, seriously. So if the decade is ending… it’s just hours of entertainment. We’re talking at least 60 to 100 hours you could lose in this game while quarantined.

Andrew: For only $6!

Eric: Yep.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So this is available through April 14, so get on that. I was wondering, is the panel doing anything Harry Potter-related during quarantine?

Laura: So I got a couple of Harry Potter Legos sets for Christmas, and I’m going to build the one that I haven’t done yet. It’s Hagrid’s Hut.

Andrew: Nice.

Laura: So I’ll do that, and I’ll add it. So I’ve got two sections of Hogwarts Castle, plus the Knight Bus and Hagrid’s Hut that will be joining them.

Micah: That’s really cool.

Laura: So yeah, looking forward to that.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s great. Post a picture on our Instagram so we could see your work when you’re finished.

Laura: I shall.

Andrew: Yeah. I really want to do a Lego Harry Potter set now, but they’re all sold out everywhere online. I would… I’m ready to do that giant castle. That’s what I want to do.

Eric: Oooh, yeah.

Micah: And where’s it going to go, though, once you’re done?

Andrew: Well, you said I have a fancy condo, so I guess I can find a place.

Micah: That’s true. It’s going to get its own room, right?

Andrew: You are such…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It’s a two-bedroom condo. People are probably thinking I have a mansion; I don’t. I’ve played Harry Potter Wizard’s Chess a couple times with Pat during quarantine. They have a chess set that looks like it’s straight out of Sorcerer’s Stone, obviously not the gigantic pieces. And that’s cute if you like chess, so I recommend that. Probably not as difficult to buy.

Micah: Is Pat okay? Because clearly if you’re on the show, you’ve been winning Wizard’s Chess.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Knight to E5!” I do like shouting them out like I’m Ron in the movie.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I do have several Harry Potter puzzles unopened from the New York Puzzle Company, so I think I’ll be jumping in there within the next day or so. There’s one that’s 1,000 pieces; it’s called “The Flying Keys.” I’m not looking forward to that one.

Eric: Ohh.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Those puzzles, some of them are really difficult just because if there’s not a whole lot that’s happening in the scene, the way that Mary Grand-Pré drew a lot of these scenes, they’re really dark color palettes, so you don’t know what fits together.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Speaking of sold out, just looking at New York Puzzle Company’s website, all these puzzles are also sold out. And a lot of people have been playing puzzles to pass the time; puzzle sales are through the roof right now, no joke.

Micah: And just one other thing, going back to Lego Harry Potter: We did talk with Arthur Parsons, who had a lot to do in the development of that game – huge Harry Potter fan – on Episode 243.

Eric: Nice.

Micah: And that’s on our Wall of Fame. I know we’re always talking about older episodes; the Wall of Fame is a great place to go for new listeners – or even listeners who have been with us for a while – to check out some of the episodes that we consider to be standout.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good quarantine suggestion. And if anybody’s still on the fence about this Lego Harry Potter, because he talks to us… I think it was to me…

Micah: It was to you, yeah.

Eric: … about how you can play as pretty much any character you can dream of from the Harry Potter series. There’s hundreds of playable characters, including Fang, including Scabbers, ones you wouldn’t expect in that game.

Andrew: Fun.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: All right, it’s time for some Muggle Mail now. We got a couple of voicemails.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey MuggleCast, this is Roshni. I’m calling about your latest discussion and what you guys were talking about with Moody and how what he said about Harry was really sort of unkind and hard for Harry to hear, and I think we forget sometimes that this Moody doesn’t actually know Harry very well. The Moody that Harry got to know was actually Barty Crouch, and so if you think about the real Alastor Moody’s interactions with Harry, they’re very limited, so in a way it makes sense that he has a less affectionate opinion of Harry than the others in the room do. Of course, that does not excuse the others of not saying anything in response to him, but it does explain why Moody would say something like that. Anyways, just wanted to point that out. Thanks.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Thank you, Roshni, who I believe is also listening live right now.

Laura: Yep, totally right.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point. I would have loved a scene where they just sat down and caught up.

Eric: Yeah, like, “So who are you? Who is Mad-Eye? Why is Mad-Eye?”

Andrew: “And get a load of the fake you. Can you believe all these things he did last year, and I fell for it all?”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: What’s so interesting about that, though, is there is a level of kindness to Barty Crouch, Jr. that we see that we don’t necessarily see in Mad-Eye.

Eric: He’s a good guy.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Despite the whole Azkaban thing.

Eric: Yeah, all that whole… what he did with Neville’s parents.

Micah: And his own mother.

Laura: But he does admittedly do a really good job in Goblet of Fire of building a rapport and building trust with Harry.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So I think Roshni is totally right here.

Eric: It is funny because talking about how regular Alastor is not Barty Crouch, he’s also not the guy who recommended Harry become an Auror. I wonder what real Moody’s opinion on whether Harry would make a good Auror. He’d probably take one look at Harry’s grades and go, “No, you absolutely cannot be a good… you could never be an Auror.” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, good point.

Micah: Mad-Eye is just, though, all business, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t really think he’s there to get to know people; he’s all about just the mission at hand. That’s kind of how he strikes me, and I think Harry gets close enough to other characters anyway. It’s just probably a bit disappointing to hear somebody who he thought to be friendly talking about him this way, but that’s what you get for spying on adult conversations.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: True.

Eric: All adults secretly hate you.

Micah: I mean, Andrew, didn’t that happen to you one time when you pulled out the Extendable Ears in front of your parents talking with your friends’ parents? And they were like, “We all knew that kid Andrew was bad news.”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I don’t think my parents called me bad news…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … but parents, of course, talk behind your back, and they worry about you, and they say things they wouldn’t say in front of you because they don’t want to hurt you. I’ve definitely spied on my parents before. We all did as kids. It was fun. It’s what you did.

Micah: Right.

Laura: Not to the extent that you did, Andrew.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: How do you know how much I spied on my parents?

Laura: Because you’ve talked about this.

Eric: You did talk about it. [laughs] Picking up the phone, listening in on phone calls.

Andrew: Oh, right. Good thing my parents don’t listen to this; I don’t think I want them to know all that.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: They did join Quizzitch, didn’t they? Or they joined something that we were doing last week.

Andrew: They did, yes. So during our next Quizzitch Live, please do not share that information. Thank you. Here’s our next voicemail from Katie.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi, MuggleCast. This is Katie. I just wanted to call in with a crackpot theory on the last chapter. So in the last chapter, Harry makes eye contact with Dumbledore and he has this very strong feeling of wanting to attack Dumbledore, and it’s almost like he wants to bite him. And so I know that we understand that to mean that since Harry is connected to Voldemort as a Horcrux, Voldemort hates Dumbledore and wants to attack him, but I thought it was a little weird that Voldemort would want to bite or have the snake-like reaction to Dumbledore. I know that Voldemort spent a good deal of time as a snake, but it just still seemed odd to me. So what I was considering was perhaps Harry was actually still connected to Nagini since she is also a Horcrux, and maybe Nagini saw through Harry’s eyes and saw Dumbledore and wanted to attack him. So thus far, we haven’t really seen why Nagini would hate Dumbledore, but the fact that she teams up with Voldemort suggests that she may actually dislike him, and I thought that we might actually see that in Fantastic Beasts. If Dumbledore has to, for some reason, take down Credence, who Nagini seems to love or care for, maybe that turns Nagini against Dumbledore and eventually leads to her teaming up with Voldemort. Just wanted to hear what you guys think, and thank you for all that you do. Bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: I love this. I love this so much.

Eric: Love this theory.

Andrew: I want to send this to J.K. Rowling and have her implement this.

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: I want Nagini and Dumbledore to have a tussle in Fantastic Beasts so it kind of connects to what we just discussed in last week’s episode.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I think this is a great idea, and it might not even be that Dumbledore harms Credence, but it might be that she looks to Dumbledore to save her from her affliction, and he either chooses not to or can’t. She might blame him for the fact that she eventually succumbs to being a Maledictus overall.

Laura: Yeah, and I think there’s also going to be an element here of her not having a choice.

Eric: Right.

Laura: I don’t see Voldemort being like, “Hey, if you want to team up, join forces, just let me know.” I could see him being like, “No, you’re mine now.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, also, as a snake, if you are forced to no longer be human, really, the only person that would make you feel human is someone who can talk to snakes, a Parselmouth. So it might be that her association with Voldemort is based solely on wanting to feel something, anything human again.

Micah: It’s a great connecting to threads, though, here by Katie, between Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: I think we’re going to get more of this as we go through and analyze the series. I don’t know, again, how much J.K. Rowling was thinking about Fantastic Beasts and who Nagini really and truly was when she was writing Order of the Phoenix, but I think it’s fun for us to theorize, especially now that we have so much more information on her, and at least the nugget that J.K. Rowling had always known that Nagini was human at some point. I also just want to throw out there I think it’s Harry just being really pissed off.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Maybe it’s just transference, and the fact that he just had a dream where he was a snake and that’s just fresh in his mind. And let’s not forget, he is super pissed at Dumbledore too; Horcruxes aside, he’s not very happy with him. So I think we’ve all experienced something similar, where we’ve gotten angry with people and we want to hit them or do something along those lines, and I feel like that’s what Harry is doing in this moment.

Andrew: I agree. It does make sense, and it checks out, but I think this theory also checks out, and it would just be such a cool tie-in to the Fantastic Beasts series that now I want that to happen. By the way, Eric, bad news about Madam Pince: Apparently she’s really mean in Hogwarts Mystery, says JY and Roshni. So I don’t know if we want to… well, maybe we do need to redeem her in your spinoff series that you’re thinking about.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah, redemptive arc. That’d be great.

Andrew: [laughs] A redemptive arc.

Micah: Her and the trolley lady.

Andrew: [laughs] No, I like the trolley lady in Cursed Child. Keep her that way.

Eric: Me too, me too.

Andrew: One more piece of feedback regarding last week’s episode. This is from Kamie. “Embedded spines are akin to quills, like a porcupine. Also, why is there no maternity ward at St. Mungo’s?” Good question.

Eric: I think childbirth is probably a lot easier for wizards and witches. It’s just a simple Expulso Charm when the time is ripe.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: And no beds, no hospitals necessary.

Andrew: Expulso Charm. To be clear, this just creates an explosion. What about Accio? “Accio baby” when it’s time.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: That sounds messy.

Andrew: [laughs] “Get ready! Accio baby!” And finally, this is from Bella.

“This is Bella from Australia. I am probably one of your youngest listeners. I am 12 and I am writing in today for homework. I am not going to school at the moment because of COVID-19, but we are supposed to write a letter or email to someone so I decided to write to you. We have to include a question or theory in our letter and I was thinking about how Harry Potter would be different if Harry was called Harriet (a girl instead of a boy). Just wanted to know what your guys’ thoughts were. Thanks again, Bella.”

Laura: Oh, yeah. I think Harry’s range of experiences would have been very different if he were Harriet, just from sort of… not to say that he would have received less abuse by the hands of the Dursleys; I don’t think that would have been true, but I think it might have been different. Some of the bullying he experienced might have been different.

Micah: Do you think Petunia would have bonded with Harriet more because of Lily?

Andrew: Oooh.

Laura: I don’t think so.

Micah: And think about the Snape relationship there. Wow, that would change things.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah. Oh, that would’ve been very uncomfortable. Yeah, if Snape had been like, to an underage girl, “Look at me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s a great question, I think, that Bella asked, and let’s not forget that J.K. Rowling had to change her name, essentially, when publishing the series because they didn’t think it would sell as well if her name, Joanne, was on the front cover. And remember, this was a much different time. That sounds crazy to say because it’s only the ’90s, but it’s a much different time that this was being written in versus today, and people’s mindset – not to say that they’re not still biased in certain ways – but I think that also probably had influence on who her main character was. Though I will say, I think Hermione really does shine through more at times than Harry does.

Laura: Oh, yeah. I have felt for a very long time that Hermione is the strongest of the trio, just in terms of the balance that she brings, the glue that she provides that holds everything together. None of the events in the Potter series would have turned out as positively as they did if Hermione had not been there to get Harry on the right track.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: Yeah, I would agree with that.

Micah: And I think we’ve done episodes just by themselves on the strong female characters that exist within the Potter series. Hermione is just one example.

Andrew: You know, Twilight author Stephanie Meyer did a gender-bent Twilight. Maybe J.K. Rowling should do the same with Harry Potter.

Eric: I am trying to find… on Archive of Our Own, there are shorter fanfics that address this exact topic. One is if Harry was a girl; the other is if Harry was born a trans girl. It’s stories that basically take the place of each other, and it kind of goes through his relationship with Petunia each time, or with Snape each time. Exactly what we’re talking about. And I’d love to credit the author, but I can’t seem to find it at the moment, so I’ll have to ask some friends of mine.

Andrew: Okay. Yeah, maybe we can include that in the show notes if you find them.

Laura: Yeah, for sure.

Eric: Yeah, check for that.

Andrew: That’s a great question, Bella. Thanks for writing in with it.

Laura: Yeah. And hope you and your family are staying safe.

Micah: Just one note on what Kamie asked about St. Mungo’s: It is the Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries.

Andrew: Ah.

Micah: So just in and of its name, maybe that’s why it doesn’t have a maternity ward.

Andrew: Yeah, so they have a separate hospital.

Laura: Yeah, so there’s probably a sister hospital called St. Mungo’s Hospital for Magical Maternity and Delivery, or something like that.

Micah: There you go.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: For Accio-ing the baby out of you. [laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “Christmas on the Closed Ward,” and we’ll start with our seven-word summary. Ready when you are, Laura.

Laura: Oh, God.

Micah: That’s two words, Laura.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Harry…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: … heads…

Eric: … to…

Micah: … see…

Laura: … Arthur…

Andrew: … in…

Laura: [whispers] Hospital.

Andrew: It’s you, Eric.

Eric: Oh, wait. Is it already…?

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Andrew: We lost.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, darn! Um… recovery.

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: Well, the time ran out, though, so it’s “Harry heads to see Arthur in.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Come on.

Andrew: Hopefully we find out where he headed. [laughs]

Eric: Can we please just add “recovery”?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: For some reason I thought it was on the fifth letter and not the sixth, and that took all the time.

Andrew: Henceforth if we run out of time…

Micah: It’s over.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: It’s over. [laughs] I think that’s great. “Harry heads to see Arthur in.”

[Eric laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: So I think we’ve been excited to discuss this chapter because, in part, of the connections between this chapter and one in Chamber of Secrets, and we’re going to do something a little different this week, because, again, [laughs] I know everybody loves all the changes happening in the world right now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We’re just going to embed Connecting the Threads within our Chapter by Chapter discussion.

Micah: Right. Yeah, and there were three main themes that really stood out to me, and I would love to get Laura’s thoughts on this, too, since she is the master of connecting the threads. The first is possession by Voldemort, and we’ll get into that more when Ginny raises her hand and said, “Hey, by the way, I was taken over by Voldemort in Chamber of Secrets, Harry, don’t you remember? So lose the attitude”; the importance of house-elves, Dobby and Kreacher both; and then of course, our favorite Defense Against the Dark Arts professor, Professor Lockhart.

Laura: Yep. Yeah, these were all things that I noticed as well, and we’ve got scattered throughout this discussion, but this chapter is really cool and different because it does have so many throwbacks to Book 2, and at least when I’m doing this, I’ve never seen this many throwbacks to the same book in one chapter that wasn’t the sister novel, so for instance, how Prisoner of Azkaban is to Order of the Phoenix. So this is a really fun one.

Micah: Definitely. But the chapter itself starts out with Harry riding back from the first visit to the hospital, and it’s almost like there’s this Horcrux takeover that happens. One of the quotes from the book says, “He ran his hand over the back of his own, wondering what it would feel like if Voldemort burst out of his skull. He felt dirty, contaminated, as though he were carrying some deadly germ, unworthy to sit on the underground train back from the hospital with innocent, clean people whose minds and bodies were free of the taint of Voldemort.” These are pretty powerful quotes, and it’s terrible that Harry is feeling this way.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s almost like what we see when you’re bitten by a werewolf. He just feels diseased, and he’ll never be able to get it out of him.

Eric: Yeah, it’s terrifying.

Laura: And I think it’s interesting that Harry has this reaction while they’re on the way back from the hospital because I don’t think it’s uncommon, if somebody is really sick, to have some of these feelings.

Andrew: But I think it’s also because he just saw his work. He saw what he, so to speak, did to Arthur, so he’s disgusted by himself.

Micah: Totally. And following this, though, he really goes into what I consider to be full nervous breakdown. He’s racking his brain. He thinks he is the weapon that Voldemort is after. He wonders if Voldemort is listening to his thoughts right at that moment. He’s concerned he’s providing access inside the Order of the Phoenix headquarters; he’s concerned because of that that Voldemort may know where Sirius is. So my question is, will somebody help this kid? And this goes back to Dumbledore, and even the listener email that we got about his reaction to seeing Dumbledore’s face. Dumbledore is not helping him. Nobody is really trying to give him the solace that he needs until Hermione shows up a little bit later in this chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: It’s also, though, a big question, who would get through to Harry at this point? Because we do see that when people try to get close to Harry, especially in this chapter, he pulls extra hard at not letting them do that. It’s kind of one of those things where somebody… he really does need a father figure, someone who can just push forward, push through and break through the barriers here, somebody to care about him who’s actively going to not let him hide away.

Andrew: But he’s also having this nervous breakdown because he has nobody to talk to, and we see later in the chapter how Harry’s mood can improve when he does get talking to people he can trust. Later in the chapter, there’s this line after he talks to Ginny and Hermione: “What they were all saying was not only comforting, it made sense… Without really thinking he took a sandwich from the plate on the bed and crammed it hungrily into his mouth.” He got his appetite back all of a sudden because he let his feelings out, and he got to speak to other people. And we all experience this too in our own lives; you’re letting something boil inside of you. You need to let it out. You may not know who to let it out to, and once you get talking to somebody you trust, you feel better. Therapy can be one way; friends can be another. But that’s what Harry needs right now, and that’s why he’s having this breakdown.

Laura: It is fair to point out, though, he is self-isolating; it’s not like he’s running around to everybody in Grimmauld Place being like, “Please help me. Please talk to me. I’m having these awful thoughts.” And I would say the level of engagement that he’s gotten from people has been pretty respectable. I mean, Mrs. Weasley has tried multiple times to get the kid to eat, and he literally goes and hides from her so he doesn’t have to talk to her. Ron comes and tries to wake him up, and he just rolls over and goes back to sleep. Folks try to engage with him when he’s on the train, including Mrs. Weasley, who asks multiple times if he’s okay, and I think that Harry just wasn’t at a point where he was comfortable verbalizing any of this. He was so uncomfortable with it, but he also didn’t want to say the words out loud.

Andrew: I mean, I go through this a lot. I quite often do not want to let it out. I don’t want to reveal my feelings in a particular moment, just because that’s the type of person I am. So Harry’s feelings here and how he doesn’t want to talk, even though he really should, really resonated with me.

Micah: Yeah. And I like the point that Laura made about social isolation because I think that’s even more important. Tying it back to real life and what’s going on right now, somebody who had mentioned that while we all should be social distancing, we shouldn’t be socially isolating, and I think that’s really important. But to get back to this chapter, I also wonder if does it have something to do that Harry has never had true parental figures in his life, so he doesn’t have somebody that he really does trust in? He’s never established that sort of bond with anybody. Because if you think about the Dursleys, they would never be there for him in a moment like this. So I wonder, aside from Ron and Hermione – who right now he’s obviously not happy with – the only other person I could think of is Sirius, but then Sirius doesn’t take things all that seriously. [laughs] And Dumbledore… it all goes back to Dumbledore and how Dumbledore is treating him. This is not what Harry should be going through. He should have a resource, and the only resource he ends up with is a portrait.

Laura: Yeah, and it’s equally rough because in the last chapter, Harry tried to talk to Sirius about this, and Sirius just kind of brushed it off. I don’t think that it was mal-intentioned; I just think that it was ignorance. But the impact was the same.

Micah: Right. I wonder, would Lupin be a good person here? Andrew, you mentioned the werewolf piece before, in terms of probably, he’s experienced some of these things.

Andrew: Yeah, I think so. I think he would be a perfect person, and we already know that Lupin can successfully talk to Harry and have a meaningful conversation with him.

Eric: Yeah. I just have such a… I mean, my heart breaks because Harry has grown to learn not to rely on people for his emotional… that’s kind of why he’s such a mess in this book; he’s had to go it alone for so long.

Laura: Yeah. Kind of a connecting the threads moment that I wanted to bring up is this idea of social isolation. Ginny does this in Chamber of Secrets, and it’s actually because she’s being possessed by Voldemort, so she loses large periods of time and doesn’t remember where she’s been, but Harry is making the conscious decision to pull away from everybody around him, so I thought that was a really interesting parallel between those two characters.

Micah: Totally. And he actually makes a similar move that we’re about to talk about in Prisoner of Azkaban, where he packs up his stuff and leaves the house, and that’s exactly what he’s trying to… obviously, that’s on Privet Drive, but he’s about to try and do that here at Grimmauld Place, but he’s stopped by Phineas Nigellus Black.

Laura: And that’s a fun conversation.

Micah: It is.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I love that dialogue.

Andrew: [laughs] Typical…

Eric: One of the few light moments of the chapter.

Andrew: It’s one of those things… so Phineas freaks out at Harry, being like, “Oh, you adolescents and your issues, and you think the world’s against you” and all that.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: This is like… when we’re reading this as a kid for the first time, we are definitely team Harry here, being like, “Um, Harry is right. You’re wrong, Phineas.” But reading this now as an adult, Phineas was totally the one who was right.

Eric: I think that’s exactly true. I mean, there’s nuance there, but for the most part, when Phineas tells Harry to stay put, or “This just in from Dumbledore: Stay put,” I mean, Harry is ready to go out. And I don’t think Harry properly understands the danger that he’s in, the level of danger now that Voldemort is really running things in this world and every day is getting stronger. If Harry were to leave Grimmauld Place, pretty much the only safe place for him, it would all be gone. It would all be over. And so Phineas has this difficult conversation with him, but it’s needed because it ultimately… it keeps Harry still. He’s not happy about it, but he’s no longer risking his darn neck.

Micah: Yeah. And it’s funny that it’s Phineas Nigellus Black who talks to Harry in this way and really points out the fact that Dumbledore has never led him into harm, given that Phineas was the portrait that everybody was the most upset with just a couple of chapters ago.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, and we have to talk about the fact that this portrait is sitting in Harry’s bedroom, so Dumbledore is keeping an eye on him.

Micah: Creepy.

Andrew: Creepy, yeah. Harry realizes that Dumbledore is just keeping an eye on him. I am not kidding when I say this: When I was a kid, I had this issue where I would turn around the photos in my bedroom because I did not want them looking at me when I changed clothes. [laughs] Legit.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: The hanging photos? You would turn…? How did you…?

Andrew: I would just place them down. I would just place them down so they couldn’t look at me. I don’t know if this… maybe the Harry Potter books made me think that these photos could actually watch me.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I don’t know, but I seriously would do this. And I’m thinking about if you’re Harry, you have no privacy! And since this is a children’s show, I won’t get into why you might need privacy, but… oh my gosh, I would throw that portrait out the window.

Eric: This is a children’s show?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: There are also very just, I think, child-friendly reasons why Harry would need privacy in this moment. He’s going through something really difficult mentally, and he may need the space to break down, to cry, to throw things around the room, whatever it is that gets this tension out, and he can’t even have that privacy.

Micah: And it’s just the luck of the draw that Ron and Harry end up in this room, right?

Eric: Oh.

Micah: Or is Ron even there with him? Or does Harry have his own room?

Eric: Ron is here because he snores at night.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: It’s listed in this chapter.

Andrew: Yeah, and they’re opening Christmas gifts together in the same room, I think.

Micah: I wonder if Dumbledore tells Molly, or whomever is in charge there, “When Harry gets here, he needs to be in the room with Phineas.”

Andrew: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, this was totally the plan. And I’ve come to the conclusion that the wizarding world is a privacy nightmare.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I hadn’t reflected on these portraits before, but thinking about it now, they are everywhere. You are always being monitored. This is worse than a cell phone. It’s terrible. Or maybe a cell phone is just as bad, because there’s cameras in these things too. Who’s watching us?

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, I mean, what if somebody surreptitiously has another portrait of themselves painted somewhere else, and they can go report on everything they watch you do from the walls? You’re exactly right. Who’s getting that information?

Andrew: I don’t like it.

Eric: Man, if Google or Facebook were a wizarding world company, they would paint portraits of pretty much every painting out there and then collect all the data from those portraits, what everybody in the world was doing.

Micah: True. So Harry eventually is able to find a way to sit down with everybody. There’s a bit of paranoia before then even with Ron, about saying Ron doesn’t want to spend time with him because of what Moody said, and I think this is just the general feeling that Harry has about everybody who was there and who was listening. But Hermione eventually shows up and that kind of helps to calm the situation. She’s given up her vacation and she’s going to spend the holidays there. And once they all finally get together and sit down, Ginny gets real, and she says to Harry, “By the way,” hand raised high in the air like Hermione usually does in class, “I was once possessed by Voldemort too, so why aren’t you checking with me in terms of what the symptoms are?”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: So this was another really strong connection to Chamber of Secrets.

Andrew: And also just an example of how Harry isn’t thinking of who he can go to for help. Ginny should have seemed like a really obvious choice.

Eric: Yeah, but it just serves to tell Harry that he hasn’t exhausted all options, and even provides, I think, key comfort. It’s after this conversation when Ginny asks him, “Do you have a memory loss? Do you have moments of time when you don’t know where you’ve been?” And Harry is like, “No,” and he’s… well, immediately internally, then, he’s like, “Oh my God, I’m not the weapon. I’m not possessed, or I’m not…” He’s just able to… it’s a weight off of his whole body. But I don’t think we can blame him for not knowing who to reach out to because of his age. I think that this is the age where you just take everything internally, and you don’t ask for help.

Laura: I think it’s also a pretty common anxiety symptom. I know, speaking personally, if I’m going through bouts of anxiety, I get very insular and don’t think to ask for help, and then if somebody offers it and says something really logical, that unravels my entire theory of what horrible thing I think is going to happen. I have a similar reaction to what Harry does here. It’s like immediate relief.

Micah: Definitely.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that.

Micah: I also found it odd that these two were both possessed in some way by Voldemort, but yet they end up getting married, so I wondered if that was a common thing that they bonded over.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: “Hey, babe, you remember when you were possessed by Voldemort?” And Ginny is like, “Actually, no.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “But I’ll pretend I do for you.”

Micah: “Go back to bed, Harry.”

Eric: Oh, gosh.

Andrew: I guess… yeah, I mean, they can bond over that, though. That could bring them closer together. They both understand that they went through something horrible.

Eric: Well, I think the point is… and this is why I like Ginny for Harry, pretty much comes down to this scene, is she confronts him about it. She’s like, “You listen. You’re not asking me. What’s up with that? I have valuable… I can help you; you just need to let me in.” And he’s shocked. He’s stunned. He never thought about this, and it’s just… that’s it. Harry doesn’t think and Ginny is doing his thinking for him, and that’s why I think they’re a good couple.

Micah: I mean, the one thing that I would say is it’s not entirely accurate, and Ginny is only speaking from her own experiences.

Eric: Right.

Micah: But we should presume that there are other ways that Voldemort could possess somebody; they don’t necessarily have to have the same experience that Ginny had. But I think that it’s just two sides of the same coin, right? That Voldemort uses the diary to possess Ginny and Harry is able to connect through his own Horcrux within him to Nagini, which is another Horcrux, so it’s all part of the same Horcrux system, is what I’m trying to say.

Eric: Yeah, for sure. Big thing for me, too, is Harry, I guess, in this conversation with the group is still talking about whether or not he was transported from his bed at Hogwarts to become the snake. He’s freaking out about all these sorts of possibilities, and Hermione still is like, “One of these days you’re going to read Hogwarts: A History, and you’ll find out that you can’t Apparate or Disapparate from Hogwarts.” And I’m thinking but… okay, Hermione needs to stop with this, right? These books are almost super focused on how to get in and out of Hogwarts, and Apparition/Disapparition is truly strictly the reason… the way that you can’t. But house-elves do it all the time; they have a different kind of magic. We’ve got in the next book vanishing cabinets getting in and out of Hogwarts. Hermione needs to open her mind, broaden her horizons, as to how Harry could have been transported to London and back instantaneously. I think there’s plenty of magic that could account for that that has nothing to do with Dumbledore’s ban on Apparition.

Andrew: But she was still wrong, though, and Ron brings up the best point of all that he watched Harry that whole time shaking in his sheets. So I see your point, but also, now’s not the time to be scaring Harry into thinking that maybe he actually was transported to London and back really quickly.

Eric: True, true. Yeah. Well, Ron’s piece of evidence absolutely is, I think, definitive and helps.

Andrew: Yeah. And again, that’s something that would have been a great question for Ron. You shouldn’t have waited for Ron to tell you that. You should have asked him, “Hey, did you see me disappear for a moment?”

Eric: Yeah, I agree, actually.

Micah: Yeah. But this is that conversation, to Laura’s point, where everything just starts to come together and Harry starts to realize what is actually truth versus what he’s just been making up inside of his head for the last day or so. He’s building up his own anxiety, right? He’s starting to think about things that probably don’t have a whole lot of level of truth to them, but it’s just because he’s not talking with anybody else that he’s not rationalizing what’s going on. And this chapter, though, is called “Christmas on the Closed Ward.” Andrew, I think you had some thoughts about Christmas at Grimmauld Place despite all the decorating that Sirius has done.

Andrew: Yes. So of course, Sirius’s decorating is wonderful, and I really like that. I love presents and Christmas, but I love opening and exchanging them together. I don’t like that they exchange gifts separately in separate rooms, and then they congregate and they’re like, “Oh, wow, thanks for that,” and “Oh, this was cool, too.” They talk about it all after the fact. That’s no fun.

Eric: Yeah, where’s the common area where you can all open gifts, take turns, and talk about it and be social? That’s how we did it.

Andrew: Yeah. Do it in front of Mrs. Black’s portrait. It’ll be a great time.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: She’ll shout at you.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I mean, this is how they do it at Hogwarts when they’re there for Christmas…

Andrew: They shouldn’t, though.

Laura: … so I wonder if this is just a wizarding world tradition.

Andrew: I don’t like it. I don’t want to go to the wizarding world anymore. Not for Christmas, at least.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: What if their tradition is that Father Christmas comes in quietly, leaves your presents at the foot of your bed, so that they’re there waiting for you when you wake up?

Andrew: And then scoop them up and bring them into a common area where you can all open together! That’s so much fun! I was just a little disappointed because that’s my favorite part of Christmas, opening gifts together.

Eric: I agree.

Micah: Yeah. Well, one person who will be surprised to get a Christmas gift is Kreacher; Hermione has been hard at work making something for him. And just talking about Kreacher in this chapter again, there’s a strong tie back to Chamber of Secrets with Dobby, and Sirius notes the fact that he’s a bit concerned that Kreacher is missing, because he has this exchange with Harry, and they haven’t seen him since Sirius dismissed him, and Harry asks a really important question of Sirius, which was, “Do you think he took your words literally when you told him to get out?” And then he goes into explaining how Dobby was, for most of Chamber of Secrets, betraying the Malfoy family by leaving the house, but he had to punish himself as a result. So who knows if that’s exactly what Kreacher is doing right now?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: So this should set off some big alarms on the reader’s part, and I think Sirius himself is really getting a bit worried.

Laura: As he should.

Eric: Yeah, I think so too. Sirius just, unfortunately, seems to be a little out of his depth about how to handle this. I mean, this is something that it’s a potential security leak, the fact that Kreacher… and he plays it off all cool; he’s like, “I bet we’ll find Kreacher in a couple days just snogging my mother’s bloomers up in a room.” And he really tries…

Andrew: “Or dead.”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, but it’s a real big security issue, and I think at this point, Dumbledore absolutely should have been notified. Dumbledore has a way with house-elves, I think, just like Dumbledore has a way with merpeople and pretty much everybody else, and he might have been able to soften the eventual outcome of what has happened if he were informed.

Laura: It’s also really interesting to get this comparison between Dobby and Kreacher. I get the sense that Dobby is perhaps a much younger house-elf than Kreacher is, because Kreacher just seems that he’s been so abused, so maligned for so long that he’s too far gone at this point to turn around, whereas Dobby had the potential to see, “Oh, you know what? I don’t really like the way I’m being treated, and my family is talking about trying to kill this 12-year-old boy. I feel like I should do something about that.” And I feel like Kreacher, at this point, has just been so conditioned that that might not be a thought that would even occur to him.

Micah: Yeah, I like that. It’s really not until they unravel the whole Regulus Black storyline that Kreacher turns the corner and we see him running into the Battle of Hogwarts with a frying pan, I think, in Deathly Hallows. But yeah, no, I think it’s a great point right now. I think he’s just too far gone, and it’s scary that he is worshiping Bellatrix Lestrange, Sirius’s cousin, and has a picture of her as well as some other Black family members set up in this den, this really just disgusting hole that he’s living in, and that Sirius is not thinking enough to try and get him a place that’s a little bit more… I don’t know what the right word is, but habitable.

Eric: It’s weird because there’s another failing of Sirius’s, which is that throughout all of the time that the two have spent with each other, Sirius really fails to realize how much Kreacher loved his brother, Regulus. And Regulus is really the unspoken character in all of these goings-ons, because we know how closely he’s associated with the Horcruxes and the defeat of Voldemort. But Sirius could really have bonded with Kreacher over Regulus, or at least found some kind of a common thread of humanity. And you don’t have to give him clothing, but like you’re saying, Micah, Sirius could have either asked Kreacher if he was fine living behind the furnace, or if there was some kind of better suited quarters or something. They have all this time together, but it’s all spent in bitterness and resentment versus finding their commonality. So I would just say, if people are quarantined with people they don’t really like during this time, see if you can find a… just try once to be like, “Hey, we probably both loved our brother, so check it out.”

Laura: I think this is also a commentary – and we’ve seen it several times throughout the books, and also, this is another throwback to Chamber of Secrets – of how house-elves… I mean, they’re slaves. This is treated with complete normalcy by a number of otherwise good people in the wizarding world. The Weasleys don’t ask any questions about this; Sirius doesn’t ask any questions about it. In fact, he’s happy to treat Kreacher like crap because he also associates Kreacher with his miserable childhood. Dumbledore has house-elves working in the kitchens and then sort of the justification for it oftentimes seems to be like, “Well, these are much better conditions than they would have elsewhere.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: And it’s like, if you were to take that argument, which people certainly have, and apply it to real instances of slavery, then it really illuminates how messed up this practice is.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Totally. And it makes you actually wonder if Kreacher was treated better by the Black family than he is currently being treated by Sirius. I wonder if he even lived in that space prior to Sirius showing up, or that just became a place for him to stash all of these things that he considered to be of importance. It’s actually, to me, also very reminiscent of Sorcerer’s Stone when we’re first introduced to the fact that Harry lives under the stairs, and you have Kreacher, who is in a somewhat similar position to how Harry is treated by the Dursleys. All right, so let’s make our way to St. Mungo’s. It’s only in the title of this chapter, and took us a bit of time to get there, I think.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: But we meet a lot of interesting characters, some of whom we’ve met before. And we can briefly mention the fact that they go in and see Arthur. Arthur is getting an earful from Molly because he tried some Muggle remedies to heal his wounds; he tried stitches, and the stitches don’t seem to be working very well. Typical Arthur.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And while I think we could probably spend a lot of time talking about Arthur’s love of all things Muggle, let’s talk a little bit about what Harry, Ginny, Ron, and Hermione find as they make their way to the fourth floor in St. Mungo’s. They’re actually trying to go up to the fifth, I believe, to just get some tea.

Andrew: The gift shop that’s at the top.

Micah: Yeah, go to the gift shop. Buy some St. Mungo’s swag.

Andrew: Yeah, remember this wonderful time where they were visiting the hospital.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And they run into their old pal, Gilderoy Lockhart.

Andrew: This was a surprising cameo. We thought we were done with him, right?

Eric: I’m so glad we weren’t.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He’s kind of a terrible person, though.

Eric: Oh, he’s absolutely horrible, and this raises a lot of questions about what the wizarding world at wide knows about what Lockhart did. I mean, Harry himself in this chapter finds it a little bit difficult to feel sorry for Lockhart. Lockhart still kind of doesn’t know who he is. He has a little bit of correspondence; bless Gladys Gudgeon for really docking her ship with him and not moving on.

Micah: What do you mean by docking the ship?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, she really… not docking the…

Andrew: Being a good caretaker.

Eric: Putting the bet on the… well, she writes him weekly.

Andrew: Oh, that’s the fan. Yeah, sorry.

Micah: I think he and Gladys had a thing before this all went down. Just my thought.

Andrew: No, I think Lockhart just has a super fan who really wants to stay in touch.

Eric: Still, after all these years. But apparently, according to this witch who watches over him, nobody visits Gilderoy, so the fact that they are here, she’s like, “Oh, Gilderoy has visitors!” and she invites them in. So apparently he’s lonely or whatever, but we can’t feel bad for him because he tried to wipe Harry and Ron’s memories and took credit for actual witches’ and wizards’ work. And here’s the thing…

Andrew: And wipe their memories.

Eric: Well, yeah, we don’t know if they were ever found and un-memory wiped, if all is right in the world. Because Harry knows what happened.

Andrew: Another spinoff series, tracking down all these people and then un-wiping their memories.

Eric: Because Harry should have told Dumbledore, and Dumbledore should have handled it.

Andrew: Are we supposed to feel bad for Lockhart? Is that what J.K. Rowling wants from us? Because he’s surrounded by people who have lost their minds – and we’re about to talk about the Longbottoms – and then here’s Lockhart. No friends, no family. He’s still in terrible condition. I don’t know if I’m supposed to feel bad or not. And I guess J.K. Rowling would say, “Well, that’s up for you to decide.” I don’t know what to think. I can’t make up my mind if I should feel bad for him or not.

Laura: I think that this, like many things, is an area where it is possible to accept multiple truths. So do I think that Lockhart is a pretty bad person who did pretty bad things while he still had his wits about him? Absolutely. Is this also incredibly sad? Yep. It’s possible for both of those things to be true. You can feel bad for somebody, but also accept that they were not the best person.

Eric: Do we think if Gilderoy did get his memories back – say, through therapy and whatever he’s doing here, and St. Mungo’s, whatever treatment plan they’ve got him on – if he got the full extent of his memory back, do you think that he would do things differently? Or do you think that… because with that comes his cunning, and do you think that he would try and seek the fame he once had by basically doing a comeback tour, and still do basically the same horrible things to other people?

Andrew: I think he would go back to his old ways, yeah. He might want to seek revenge on Harry and Ron. [laughs]

Eric: That’d be a little dangerous, Lockhart busting down the door a couple years down.

Andrew: Yeah. If he never recovered from this, I would probably feel sorry for him, just because he kind of had a short life, and it was a life of lies. And maybe he had lost his way early on through no fault of his own. So I like your reasoning, Laura, but I think at the moment, I’m still not going to feel bad for him until we learn more about Lockhart. J.K. Rowling, please tweet about him.

Laura: You’ve just got to approach it with nuance. That’s all.

Micah: Yeah, he still does have a bit of his ego, though.

Andrew: He does.

Micah: That’s without question. He knows that he’s famous in some respects, and he still likes to sign autographs.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: He wants some help. So again, another throwback to Chamber of Secrets, when Harry had detention, right? He had to help Lockhart sign all of his fan mail.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But speaking of J.K. Rowling, though, Andrew, she did have a little bit about his name origin; not as much about what happened to him post-Order of the Phoenix, but she did say, “I found [him] on a war memorial. I was looking for quite a glamorous, dashing sort of surname, and Lockhart caught my eye on this war memorial, and that was it. Couldn’t find a Christian name. And I was leafing through the Dictionary of Phrase and Fable one night. I was consciously looking for stuff, generally, that would be useful and I saw Gilderoy, who was actually a highwayman, and a very good-looking rogue.” So that’s how Gilderoy Lockhart came about.

Eric: Pretty sure the term highwayman means scoundrel, grifter, person who is not totally honest.

Micah: Absolutely.

Eric: Lives off the road.

Micah: And before we get to talking about the Longbottoms, I just wanted to mention that we get another mention of Broderick Bode, and he has a gift that somebody sent for him for the holidays, and it is what we learn to be a mini Venomous Tentacula. And I’m wondering, in what world does the nurse think the plant described sounds like it’s safe to put next to a patient?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, this is an utter failing. This is horrifying to see it happen. And this person who’s overseeing the ward is just like, “How nice, flowers. This person never gets flowers.”

Micah: It’s not a flower, though. It doesn’t… I don’t even think it… I forget the description; I didn’t put it in here, but it doesn’t sound like flowers.

Eric: It’s more cactus-y, I think, or leafy. Like, “How nice, aloe.”

Laura: I do wonder… and I think we did get a couple of comments about this, of people comparing these lack of security measures to our own real lives, with the example of 9/11; folks bringing up the fact that there were a lot of things that you used to be able to do that nobody even really thought about pre-9/11. If you were flying, you could take your whole freaking family out to the gate with you to watch you get on the plane.

Andrew: [laughs] That is so nuts. I never flew… I didn’t fly until 2006, so the thought of that is just mind-blowing to me. I’ve never known another way. You leave your family at the security gates.

Eric: Yeah, and I do remember doing that. I do remember going all the way to the terminal just to see a friend or family off.

Laura: Yeah, I used to go wave at the pilots when I was a kid.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And I mean, by the way, the gates are crowded enough with passengers. I can’t imagine all these extra people hanging around these gates, so I’m glad that they added this rule. Unfortunately, it came at the cost of 9/11, obviously.

Eric: I think you’re right, though, and this is… I brought this up last week, but Mungo’s is so innocent it hurts, right? They just have never seen this kind of warfare before.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a good point. So maybe after the Battle of Hogwarts, maybe after Voldemort is back, that reveal happens. Maybe then they check the plants, Micah.

Micah: Maybe then, yeah.

Andrew: Security lockdown on them plants.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And I don’t think it… at least, it’s not lost on me that we’re in a ward where people have essentially lost their minds, and for the first part of this chapter, Harry kind of thinks he’s losing his mind, and I think this is a good reality check for him.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Puts things in perspective.

Micah: So let’s talk about the Longbottoms. This is a big surprise for… not necessarily the reader, but for everyone else that’s there with Harry. Harry obviously knows about what happened to Neville’s parents. But we’re introduced finally – we’ve heard a lot about her – to Augusta Longbottom, Neville’s grandma, and I think she’s everything we expect her to be and then some. And I do think that she cares very deeply for Neville, although it comes across in a hardened sort of way. But she’s also very proud of her son, Frank, and I don’t really know what to make of her feelings towards Alice. It’s kind of like that mother-in-law relationship, mother-in-law/daughter-in-law. But I don’t want to say that she seems less impressed with her, but I think the way that she talks about her son is… I don’t know. Did you get that sense too?

Eric: I agree completely, yes. It’s definitely her own blood, her own son, that she has the most affection for. And she tells Neville not to be embarrassed, and it’s kind of a shame because Neville is going through some stuff. He obviously is so surprised to see all of his Hogwarts school chums there. He wishes he could melt into the wall. You really feel for Neville.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, of course. This deep secret, something he is clearly embarrassed by, has now been revealed with no warning at all. And when you’re this age, you’re deathly afraid of these types of things being revealed because… I guess one reason he’s afraid is because he doesn’t want it getting around the school, because people might make fun of him.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Would that be a reason?

Laura: I don’t get that sense.

Andrew: No?

Laura: Because Augusta basically tells him, “You shouldn’t be embarrassed,” and he says, “I’m not.” I think he doesn’t want people to pity him.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Yeah, it makes sense.

Eric: That could be a bravery, right?

Laura: Mhmm.

Micah: But doesn’t Neville almost go after Draco and Harry stops him, and it ends with Harry getting detention?

Eric: Yeah, because Draco is all talking about people who’ve been meddled by magic. I forget what… this was a couple chapters ago.

Micah: Right. So yeah, we all really feel for Neville in this moment. But one other connection/throwback to Chamber of Secrets that I wanted to talk about is that Augusta, when she meets the trio and Ginny for the first time, it’s very, very different than Lucius Malfoy’s evaluation of the trio and some of the Weasleys. I know we pulled the clip from Chamber of Secrets the movie, so I think we can probably play that clip first, and then we can talk about how Augusta looks at the kids.

[Audio clip plays]

Lucius Malfoy: Mr. Potter. Lucius Malfoy. We meet at last. Forgive me… your scar is legend, as, of course, is the wizard who gave it to you.

Harry: Voldemort killed my parents. He was nothing more than a murderer.

Lucius: You must be very brave to mention his name… or very foolish.

Hermione: Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself.

Lucius: And you must be Miss Granger. Yes, Draco has told me all about you, and your parents. Muggles, aren’t they? Let me see, red hair, vacant expressions, tatty secondhand book… you must be the Weasleys.

Arthur: Children, it’s mad in here…

[Audio clip ends]

Andrew: “Vacant expression, must be a Weasley.” [laughs] That was a weird one.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Yeah, so if instead you look at Augusta, her response is: “‘Ah, yes,’ said his grandmother, looking closely at Harry and sticking out a shriveled, clawlike hand for him to shake. ‘Yes, yes, I know who you are, of course. Neville speaks most highly of you… And you two are clearly Weasleys,’ Mrs. Longbottom continued, proffering her hand regally to Ron and Ginny in turn. ‘Yes, I know your parents – not well, of course – but fine people, fine people… and you must be Hermione Granger?’ Hermione looked rather startled that Mrs. Longbottom knew her name, but shook hands all the same. ‘Yes, Neville’s told me all about you. Helped him out of a few sticky spots, haven’t you? He’s a good boy,’ she said, casting a sternly appraising look down her rather bony nose at Neville, ‘but he hasn’t got his father’s talent, I’m afraid to say.'” So she takes a dig at Neville at the end there.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But two very, very different appraisals of pretty much the same people.

Laura: I wonder when he later went on to become a professor, if he was like, “Yeah, Gran. Look at me now.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Look how far I’ve come.”

Micah: “You want some Venomous Tentacula?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, so I just thought that was a really cool connection between Order of the Phoenix and Chamber of Secrets. I know we spend a lot of time comparing it to Prisoner of Azkaban.

Laura: Yep. No, it’s a really cool contrast between these characters. And it’s also like… did y’all ever have this moment when you were kids where you would meet your friends’ parents that you’d never met before? You’d been friends with this person for years, you meet their parents, and it’s kind of weird?

Eric: [laughs] Yeah.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: That’s the feeling I got in this moment. I was like, “Oh, this is so weird.” Also, a fun connection is that we finally meet Augusta Longbottom, but we actually first saw her fashion choices in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Eric: That’s right.

Laura: When Neville was fighting the Boggart, yep.

Andrew: And they’re noted here. I loved that.

Micah: Yeah, vulture hat.

Andrew: And of course, they did a great job with that in the movie too.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: So just a few other things on this chapter, particularly with the Longbottoms: The gum wrappers, the bubblegum wrappers that Alice is handing to Neville at the end of the chapter, there were so many theories back in the day about what those gum wrappers had inside of them. Were there little messages?

Andrew: What?

Micah: You don’t remember that?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. Because the question is whether or not Frank and Alice really do have their faculties about them. If Mungo’s is… we talked about Lucius Malfoy and the Death Eaters contributing to Mungo’s, and Mungo’s having these security holes about how you can get a killer plant in if you want to. But it’s possible that Frank and Alice, these renowned Aurors – because you hate to see them so reduced – that what if they’re either locked in, meaning that the mental capacity… they’re secretly in there, but unable to express themselves in an outward way, in a vocal way, that what if Alice is communicating with Neville through these gum wrappers? Like, if you unwrap them and there’s a message there, some kind of…

Andrew: “Here’s how to defeat Voldemort.”

Eric: Well, yeah, clue or puzzle or something, but I think it was born out of the desire to not see this man and wife reduced to this disability and succumb to the spell damage for the rest of their adult lives.

Micah: Yeah, it was definitely one of the more popular theories post-Order of the Phoenix that was out there.

Andrew: And of course, it ended up not being true, and to bring it back to this chapter…

Micah: Right. I think… yeah, J.K. Rowling actually commented on it. I forget exactly what she said, but she…

Andrew: Well, and weren’t there gum wrappers on the old JKRowling.com website?

Eric: There were.

Micah: Yeah, on her desk, I think.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I think the credit for that theory, where I remember hearing it, is The Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter by Wizarding World Press.

Micah: So just final piece on this chapter…

Andrew: Well, and we should just mention… I mean, the gum wrappers, Neville held on to them just because he wanted something from his mother, right? And it’s sad.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: No, it’s heartbreaking. So the final piece of this chapter that is sort of a big reveal – at least for Ginny, Ron, and Hermione – is that Bellatrix Lestrange is responsible for putting Frank and Alice Longbottom here at St. Mungo’s, and Hermione immediately makes a connection back to Kreacher and how Kreacher has this photo of her inside his little hidey hole…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: … and is essentially praising her, and clearly has a very fond affection for her.

Eric: What a great connection. It’s so subtle, but it really underscores where Kreacher is right at this moment. And it’s a tough moment for Hermione to reconcile what she now knows with the reality, when you can say something on paper, but when you’re faced with the reality of it, here are the victims of Bellatrix Lestrange. And Hermione wants to say all house-elves are good, all house-elves are victims, all house-elves deserve freedom, but we later find out what Kreacher does with the little bit of warped freedom that he does have, and it’s causing characters we love to die.

Micah: So before we move on to the Umbridge Suck count, I just wanted to call out one other cool nugget that I found while reading. It’s when they’re walking up the stairs, and apparently in the stairwell is all these different portraits, and one of the portraits is basically hassling Ron as he’s walking up the stairs.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And it is implying that he has spattergroit, and he’s like, “No, dumbass, it’s actually just freckles that I have on my face.” And I just thought that this was funny because we know that in Deathly Hallows, the ghoul in the attic is actually charmed or whatever into having spattergroit or symptoms of spattergroit, and that’s the story that is spun about Ron and why he’s not at Hogwarts.

Eric: Yeah, good foreshadowing.

Andrew: Do we want to hear exactly what J.K. Rowling had to say about the gum wrappers? I found the quote.

Eric: Oh, you found it.

Micah: Sure.

Andrew: This was from the MuggleNet/Leaky interview post-Half-Blood Prince. So that book came out, and everybody was still talking about the gum wrappers. [laughs] “That idea was one of the very few that was inspired by a real event. I was told what, to me, was a very sad story by someone I know about their elderly mother who had Alzheimer’s, and the elderly mother was in a closed ward. She was very severely demented and no longer recognized her son, but he went faithfully to visit her twice a week, and he used to take her sweets.”

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: “That was their point of connection; she had a sweet tooth, she recognized him as the sweet-giver. That was very poignant to me. So I embroidered the story. Neville gives his mother what she wants, and (it makes me sad to think of it) she wants to give something back to him, but what she gives back to him is essentially worthless. But he still takes it as worth something because she’s trying to give, so it does mean something, in emotional terms.”

Micah: There’s a lot of nostalgia in this chapter. Time for the Umbridge Suck count, and I can only find one moment to up her count…

Andrew: Phew, thank goodness.

Micah: … and that was that she was upset that Harry and the Weasleys got permission to leave school early to go visit Arthur.

Andrew: Yeah. What the heck? This is a milestone because now, according to our tally, Umbridge has sucked 50 times!

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Let’s play it 50 times!

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[Micah laughs]

Laura: No.

Eric: You do that in post.

Andrew: We’ll be back in five minutes.

[Eric laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: It’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to Augusta Longbottom for giving the trio the compliments that they all deserved. She was very sweet.

Eric: I’m going to give it to Harry’s new present from Hermione, the homework diary that threatens to him, like, “Do it today or later you’ll pay!” and “If you’ve dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s, then you may do whatever you please!”

Laura: I swear, Hermione is a great friend, but she’s a terrible present giver.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You don’t think Harry needs a homework diary?

Laura: No.

Micah: Not right now. I will give it to Ginny for just keeping it real, making Harry realize that he’s not alone.

Laura: And despite her horrible taste in Christmas gifts, I’m giving it to Hermione for being the one who dragged Harry out of Buckbeak’s room and really got him to pay attention to his friends.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “Forgetful and Fraudulent.”

Eric: I borrowed a quote from Phineas Nigellus Black: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “The Poor Puffed-Up Poppinjay.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “Lockhart, Longbottom, and Bode, Esq.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: And I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 23, “Gum Wrapper Conspiracy.”

Eric: Really drawing attention to it.

Andrew: I want to change mine to “Accio Baby.” Chapter 23, “Accio Baby.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in, MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. We’d love to hear if you have any feedback about today’s episode or any thoughts on the next chapter, Chapter 24 of Order of the Phoenix.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What present for Christmas does Harry give to Ron? The correct answer was a broom compass. Correct answers were sent in by Terri Gan, Jenny Beez, Tara, Count Ravioli, Less than Stance, Erika, Caleb, Reese, and Viyana. Next week’s question: Who teases Harry first about taking remedial potions with Severus Snape?

Micah: Great question.

Eric: Submit the answers, as always, to us over on Twitter, at @MuggleCast with hashtag Quizzitch.

Andrew: And don’t forget, Quizzitch Live: The Fandom of Secrets, this Thursday, April 9. Stream starts at 7:15 p.m. eastern and game begins at 7:30 p.m. eastern. Tune in. Open to everybody.


Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul


Andrew: It’s time for a Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul. Micah, we did a survey recently and everybody raved about your voice, so I feel like you should read this Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul.

Micah: All right, this comes from Stephanie, who says,

“Hey, MuggleCasters. Been listening since 2006 and I feel like you’ve been there for every major life event, both joyous and less so. You were with me on my way to gymnastics meets when I was little, traveled around the world with me as I got older, and more recently have kept my spirits up as I ran half marathons. You’ve also been with me through my parents’ divorce, fights with friends, organic chemistry, bad college hangovers, studying for the MCATs, and medical school step exams. Most recently, you’ve been with me on the 1 train every morning as I go to work as an internal medicine intern in the ICU at Columbia New York Presbyterian. I knew intern year would be the hardest year of my life, but I never could have imagined what it would feel like to be an ICU physician in a New York hospital during COVID. Not only that, but my usual sources of stress relief — seeing friends, spin classes, going to the gym — have been taken away (as they have been for everyone.) Amidst all of this, MuggleCast has transported me from the 1 train out of New York every morning. Thank you for that. It is much appreciated. Stephanie.”

Laura: And thank you.

Andrew: Yeah, thank you.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say from all of us, thank you, because it’s because of what you do that we’re all trying to stay safe and healthy, and the work you do, we can’t say thank you enough for it.

Andrew: Absolutely. And it’s always a pleasure doing this podcast, but especially now, because what’s so great about podcasting and consuming podcasts is you can still get these no matter where you are, no matter what you’re doing, even if you’re stuck at home like most of us are. And if you aren’t, you should consider that if you can. But yeah, we’re just happy to be here with everybody during this difficult time, and we hope MuggleCast is a source of comfort for all of you. And of course, not just us – it’s not about us – Harry Potter as well. We hope the Harry Potter books are a source of comfort as we get through this crazy year. Remember when we were all like, “2019, please end already”? Well, it ended, and here we are. We would love your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We are a weekly podcast thanks to the support of listeners like you. Head over to Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and when you pledge, you will have instant access to tons of benefits, including our recording studio as we record each Saturday or Sunday morning. You also get behind-the-scenes looks at the show; you’ll see what we’re planning for the week ahead, you’ll get bonus MuggleCast installments, and a whole lot more. Oh, including our favorite new benefit, these personalized “Thank you messages” that we are recording for each and every new patron. That’s been a lot of fun, and you will get yours when you pledge today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Also be sure to follow us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Links will go out on our social media channels for Quizzitch Live this week, so keep an eye on those around 7:15 p.m. eastern on Thursday, and you will get the links. Sorry, by the way, that we are recording this one in the evening-ish hours for you international people out there. I know that’s a harder time for you guys to make, but it’s just what is working for us. We will try in the months ahead to do one that is earlier in the day so international audiences can participate without being really tired. I’m J.K. Rowling.

Eric: [laughs] I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Goodbye!

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #459

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #459, Magicare For All (OOTP 22, St. Mungo’s, Part 2)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We hope everybody is doing well. We tried to take everybody’s minds off of the craziness of the world right now; we hosted a live edition of Quizzitch last week, and we didn’t bring this up on Episode 458 – we apologize – because we kind of came up with the idea at the last minute. But we did that on Wednesday and it was a lot of fun, so thanks to everybody who participated. We had over 700 people involved, and it was really cool. We were basically hosting a trivia night that you would see at a bar, but we actually know our Harry Potter, so all the questions and answers were correct.

Eric: [laughs] It was a lot of fun.

Micah: It really was. As you said, it was just a nice break from everything that was going on, and I know a lot of people that commented really just appreciated that opportunity to get away and just have a lot of fun, and that’s what it was. Even Fudge, the Minister for Magic…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … at least in this book right now… he joined us at the top of the show. Thank you to Cornelius.

Laura: Yeah, and we gave away some fun prizes, too, right?

Andrew: We did. We gave away a MinaLima print. One of the prizes was an edition of a Harry Potter book you don’t yet have, some Funkos, one of the Harry Potter puzzles that we can’t stop talking about… those are all sold out, by the way, on New York Puzzle Company.

Eric: Really!

Andrew: And on Amazon, and everywhere else. Everybody is buying puzzles right now, I guess just to keep themselves busy. We do hope to host another edition of Quizzitch Live in the weeks ahead; more details to come. But congratulations to all the winners of our first ever Quizzitch Live: Nathan, House-Elf Liberation Front, Julia, Insufferable Know-It-All, and Margo. And you can see a list of the top 500 participants on MuggleCast.com. So yeah, it was a great time, and we’re looking forward to doing that again, because I just don’t think you see something like this online anywhere else.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I mean, I hate to be egotistical about it, but… [laughs]

Micah: Well, you’re going to soon. Other people are going to follow in our footsteps. We’re the trendsetters, just like we were with this podcast.

Andrew: As usual, as usual.


News


Andrew: So let’s talk a little bit of news. Actually, the only news item we have this week is that J.K. Rowling has been back on Twitter recently. She’s trying to calm the public, and she’s trying to encourage everybody to stay indoors during this pandemic.

Micah: [whispers] She’s back.

Andrew: [laughs] And there have been a couple of interesting tweets. I was very alarmed when a Lord Voldemort account with 270,000 followers tweeted J.K. Rowling, “Stay safe, Jo.” She replied, “You too, Voldy.” Heart emoji.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Um… he’s the enemy!

Laura: Yeah, but she’s his creator.

Eric: Yeah, you always love your children, even the bad ones, right?

Andrew: And I guess she’s saying we all need to come together right now, put our differences aside. Who cares if he wants to kill half-bloods and Muggles? Doesn’t matter.

Eric: Right, right.

Laura: Well, he’s dead, so…

Andrew: Clearly not.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He tweeted J.K. Rowling. I think she’s also confirming that Voldemort is alive after all.

Eric: Oh, gosh.

Andrew: I mean, we read the Cursed Child; he does come back. I think he came back again. Cursed Child part three.

Eric: It’s so fun to see, though, J.K. Rowling interact with one of these parody accounts, whether it’s Voldemort or Hagrid or Harry Potter himself or anything like that. Just seeing any artist interact with parody accounts of their own work is always a good time over on Twitter.

Andrew: She was tweeting pictures of her dog and her; that was cute. This tweet was kind of interesting: She said that she plays Mario Kart. I wouldn’t have pegged her for a Mario Kart player.

Eric: Yeah, this was awesome. Somebody asked her, “I’m completing a school project about you.” Or actually, it was a teacher, who said, “I’m using you for my sample project,” and she said, “Any little-known fun facts about yourself you won’t mind sharing?” And she said, “My favorite color is pink. I always play as Yoshi in Mario Kart.” And she’s just started rereading Catch-22, which she first read aged 22, and she got a tattoo last year. So she just outright gave these lesser-known facts. What matters the most to me is that she and I have the same taste in characters for Mario Kart.

Andrew: Interesting. I like playing as Mario himself, or Tanuki Mario.

Eric: Classic, classic Mario.

Andrew: She did say, “I got a tattoo last year, but not a Harry Potter tattoo. That would be ridiculous.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Why, Jo? I think you should.

Eric: Somebody asked her about that as a follow up, and she said, “It would be like getting my own face tattooed on me.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Like, “I have a face on my face; I don’t need it on my self.”

Laura: That’s fair. I wonder what this tattoo is of.

Eric: I know; now I’m really curious.

Andrew: Yeah, we need to know, Jo. But I mean, okay, but Eric has a MuggleCast tattoo. Is that the same thing or no?

Eric: Right, MuggleCast is our project. It’s what we created together, so it works for me.

Andrew: Yeah, but Harry Potter is her project.

Eric: Well, you know what she should do, is she should get the movie poster of Philosopher’s Stone, the first one, because that’s a project involving multiple people. So that should be tattooed.

Andrew: [laughs] Just a sleeve tattoo of Sorcerer’s Stone?

Eric: Yeah! Listeners at home, write in with what you think J.K. Rowling should get as her next tattoo. We’ll pick the winner and barrage her on Twitter and suggest it.

Micah: Do you think she can actually show it on social media?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh my God.

Micah: Where she elected to get this tattoo?

Andrew: You think she may have gotten it on her booty?

Micah: Well, maybe slightly above.

Eric: God.

Laura: You think J.K. Rowling got a tramp stamp, Micah?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I want to know who J.K. Rowling’s tattoo artist is, because that person has got to have nerves of steel.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah, you don’t want to screw up J.K. Rowling…

Laura: Yeah, you don’t want to mess up J.K. Rowling’s tattoo.

Eric: That’s true.

Andrew: She probably went to a celebrity tattoo artist. There must be trusted tattoo artists within the celebrity community, right?

Micah: I could see Tom Felton doing it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Tom Felton doing J.K. Rowling’s tattoo. All right, I think it’s time to move on.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, but real quickly, knowing now that her favorite color is pink, it reminded me of Umbridge, of Professor Umbridge. Umbridge being a woman who wears pink ironically, and was based off a real person that J.K. Rowling once knew who wore pink to be extra feminine. And so J.K. Rowling liking pink is a huge – not stretch – a huge flex, I think, because she sort of lampooned the color previously.

Andrew: Right, yeah. Last week we mentioned that they were putting together some more Harry Potter at home initiatives. They haven’t announced any more of those, by the way, but maybe in the next week or two we will get to see what those are. But yeah, it looks like J.K. Rowling is back on Twitter for the time being. We’ll see how long she sticks around. Still not sharing any new Harry Potter information, really, by the way; I think she’s sworn off of that because she would just get attacked every time she was adding to canon on Twitter, which I liked and which was great for the show.

Micah: I think so. Why not? It gives her… she’s not doing anything else. Cormoran Strike 5, done. Fantastic Beasts 3 script, done. I mean, she could obviously hang out with her kids and her husband, but…

Laura: Yeah, but like, why?

Andrew: [laughs] When you can be on Twitter talking to strangers?

Micah: She could play Mario Kart online with the rest of us.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: That’s what we need. We need her username, Andrew, so we can play with her.

Eric: Jo, give us your Nintendo Switch online account name.

Laura: Think about your priorities.

Andrew: Yeah, Jo, let me beat you in Mario Kart.

Laura: Do you think she’s playing Animal Crossing?

Andrew: Oh. I don’t know. I mean, she plays The Sims, and The Sims is similar to Animal Crossing, so I bet. Or she’s probably playing Mario Kart on Nintendo 64 or something, I would guess.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That’s really the only place to play it, to be honest.

Andrew: Nah, the Switch one is great. Also Double Dash.

Micah: It is. But anyway, that actually makes me think, though, about the scripts for the fourth and fifth Fantastic Beasts movies. She has all this time now. She could just write these things, bang them out, and maybe the movies get made quicker as a result?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Maybe. Sounds like wishful thinking. I think they’re going to want to space the movies out two years apart, like they were trying to do initially.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: We do have one email this week. This is from Veronica.

“Hello, MuggleCasters! I’m a new listener. Started listening just before Christmas!”

Welcome to the show, Veronica.

“I wanted to comment on your recent discussions regarding Thestrals, specifically how Harry did not see them at the end of…”

Wait, what? G-O-… Goblet of…?

Micah: I think she just calls it GOF.

Andrew: Oh. [laughs]

Micah: I’ve never heard that before.

Andrew: “… at the end of GOF when leaving Hogwarts. I just finished reading GOF for the billionth time and wanted to share a line from the book with you. In the US paperback edition, on page 725, the ‘horseless carriages’ are mentioned. However, the point of could possibly be from Hermione and not Harry. The line reads, ‘Hermione turned away, smiling at the horseless carriages that were now trundling toward them up the drive, as Krum, looking surprised but gratified, signed a fragment of parchment for Ron.’ I’d like to propose a theory. Harry is waiting for the carriages to arrive and is talking to Krum. It is during this time that the carriages apparently arrive and the scene quickly changes and they are already on the train. Perhaps he did not ‘see’ the Thestrals because he was distracted by all of the commotion and conversation with Fleur and then Krum. Wonder what your thoughts are? Thanks for all of your work on the show! Stay healthy!”

Eric: Yeah, Rowling addressed this. This was why she had to say that death needs to “sink in” for people to be able to see Thestrals, because there was this error where she wrote that Harry didn’t see them in Goblet of Fire. So this was her… she since corrected to be like, “Well, even though Harry had seen Cedric die, he hadn’t really lived with it long enough to see a Thestral.”

Laura: Yeah, I do kind of like, though, that Veronica was thinking about ways to explain the error, like Harry is clearly preoccupied with other things in this scene. So while J.K. Rowling has explained to us why this is, I think this is a good reading. I like it.

Eric: Yeah, if he glimpsed, say, the backside of a carriage, it’d be like, “Oh, those are the horseless carriages,” without him noticing that there was somebody there in front of it, yeah.

Micah: Well, based on your explanation, though, too, Eric, maybe if he did turn and see, he would say, “Oh my God, why is there just a horse head sticking out of nowhere?” He’s only processed, like, half of what’s happened to Cedric.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Do you think that you see Thestrals incrementally? Like, partially?

Micah: Maybe.

Eric: I love that idea.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we are discussing the back half of Chapter 22 this week, “St. Mungo’s Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries.” And we will start with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Harry…

Laura: … ventures…

Micah: … to…

Eric: … the…

Andrew: … hospital…

Laura: … with…

Micah: … family.

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: Best one yet. That gets an Outstanding.

Eric: Yeah, we’ll poll our Facebook patrons group about…

Andrew: Oh, they’ve been doing it themselves. We don’t even have to.

Micah: Oh, really?

Andrew: Yeah, in the Facebook group.

Micah: How have our grades been?

Eric: Poor. Think we got a couple of votes for Troll last couple weeks.

Laura: [laughs] Aw, they love judging us, guys.

Eric: This will set them right. Everybody can agree this was an outstanding seven-word summary.

Micah: This really was.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: It’s interesting, Micah, that you should say that Harry ventures to the hospital with family, because as this chapter starts, Harry seems to be questioning how close he is to the Weasleys.

Micah: Yeah, but I think that is natural given what’s happened. This isn’t just a normal set of circumstances, is it? Harry feels directly responsible for this family grief.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, to view himself as… and Sirius. He’s looking across the room at Grimmauld Place and saying, “Me and Sirius are intruders on this family grief.” I’m thinking, but the Weasleys have done nothing but accept Harry from day one on the train platform with Molly helping him board the train, to coming to stay at the Burrow, being rescued from the Dursleys in Book 2… at least for three or four years now, Harry has been a surrogate child, and no more so than the beginning of this book when Molly is fighting Sirius for control over Harry. So I think it makes a little bit of sense, but Harry by now should feel like he can mourn with the Weasleys for Mr. Weasley being attacked.

Laura: But I think he’s also struggling with the feeling that he was the one who attacked Mr. Weasley at this point, and he’s feeling a great deal of guilt over it, and that’s got to be mixed up and painful and hard to deal with. Because on the one hand, it’s true that Mr. Weasley would have died if Harry hadn’t had the vision; on the other, Harry feels complicit in what happened to him.

Andrew: Right. Not to mention – and we didn’t discuss this last week – but the Weasley kids were suspicious of Harry when he was telling this story. They couldn’t help but feel like maybe he was involved in attacking Arthur, and that also makes Harry feel very insecure.

Eric: It certainly services the cliffhanger at the end of the chapter.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. I was going to say I think they have very good reason to feel somewhat suspicious when Harry is telling a story, given what we learn at the end of the chapter.

Eric: You know who’s not suspicious is Sirius Black. Harry actually is able to tell him what happened. They’re hiding in a cupboard or cabinet or something before breakfast; wherever they are, it’s dark. They don’t even turn on a light. Harry can barely see Sirius’s face. But he tells him everything that happened and Sirius is just like, “Ah, you’re tired. You should get some sleep.” And I’m wondering, why doesn’t Sirius take it a little bit more seriously?

Andrew: Well, is he just trying to…? He knows what’s going on, right? Or has a better sense of what’s going on than Harry does. He might have his guesses, at least, and he doesn’t want to scare Harry at this point, and probably, per Dumbledore’s orders, he doesn’t want to give Harry more information.

Eric: My take on it was that Sirius himself just never dealt with this kind of thing. Possession, not really in the wheelhouse. All the Marauders have extensive experience with whatever the heck makes the Marauder’s Map tick and turning yourself into an Animagus and all this other cool stuff, but this just seems to be out of Sirius’s element. I don’t think he properly respects the nuance that Harry saw something through another creature’s vision. Sirius unfortunately, even though he’s being godfatherly by telling Harry to rest and get sleep, he’ll feel better, and that’s all good, he doesn’t seem to really understand what could be at play here.

Micah: I tend to agree with that. I think that when you look at what he was able to do in terms of comforting the Weasley family initially when they arrive, and getting them to settle down and being more mature, versus this moment… Harry is just looking for answers, and I think this is just another example of him not being able to get them. He’s not able to get the answers he needs until he’s able to overhear the conversation at the end of this chapter, and I don’t necessarily know that that’s Sirius’s fault in this moment; I just don’t think that he’s… if he was talking to Lupin – Harry – in this moment, I feel like he might get some more insight into what could possibly be going on, and Lupin knows how to kind of cut those corners. But I actually don’t think Sirius knows from Dumbledore what’s happening. I think he’s intentionally kept out of the loop because he would just blab it all to Harry.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: He must have his suspicions, though.

Laura: Yeah, I just tend to agree that… and this is not a slight against Sirius; I know that this will probably rub some people the wrong way…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … but I don’t think that Sirius would be fully equipped to have that kind of conversation. I agree that somebody like Lupin would be more capable of approaching something like that.

Eric: And Lupin knows Harry better from having taught him at Hogwarts. Having gone through the whole Patronus thing, like, “When I see Dementors, I hear my mother,” Lupin is already clued into some of Harry’s weaknesses and vulnerabilities in that way, so he’d probably be able to take it a little bit more seriously that Harry is feeling very vulnerable right now.

Micah: And to raise a red flag, I don’t know that Sirius is taking this information as seriously as he should be, and even though the conversation happened with Dumbledore and McGonagall present earlier, I just feel like Sirius is being way too dismissive. I don’t know if, after this conversation, he does go back, maybe, and talk with Molly or he talks with others, but he just seems to be very complacent with this information.

Andrew: Well, that’s why I think he’s trying to mislead Harry, but yeah.

Eric: Yeah, we’ll see. So it’s kind of touch and go. This is where we left off our discussion last week, with Molly entering and saying Mr. Weasley is okay. We recently did a bonus MuggleCast over on our Patreon about Arthur Weasley, the choice to keep him alive, to spare his life, basically; we know that J.K. Rowling, while writing this book, almost killed Mr. Weasley. But now that we’re on this chapter, I had a few extra questions to ask about, really, what would it look like in the book? This would presumably be the chapter where Molly comes in and says, “He’s gone.” Just how to view how that would change things for this book.

Andrew: To lose such a big character in the middle of the book would have seriously changed the dynamics of the rest of the book, because I can’t imagine the kids moving on from this for the rest of Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Right?

Andrew: So I’m very glad that she didn’t kill Arthur for that reason alone. And I sound like David Yates or David Heyman talking about the adaptations when I say this, but the pacing.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It would have slowed down the pacing of this book, I think. And they did need a win, and this was a win. This was a feel-good moment in a much needed area when a lot of bad things are going on. And for Harry to have to deal with not only potentially being “possessed” by Voldemort, but to also have lost a father figure to him, and for the Weasleys to have lost their father, it just would have been so, so awful.

Laura: I think it would have further complicated the plot, too, just in terms of the Order of the Phoenix and their secrecy, and that could even trickle down to Dumbledore’s Army at Hogwarts, this idea that Mr. Weasley is murdered by some creature outside of the Department of Mysteries, and the kinds of questions that that would raise for the Ministry, like, “What was he doing there?”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I don’t think that is something they would publicize. They talk about this in this chapter, that there’s no reporting on this because the Ministry does not want it out there that something like this happened on their premises, but I think that it would make them very suspicious, and given that so many of the Order members actually work at the Ministry, this could have put a lot more people in danger, too.

Eric: That’s a good point. And I wonder if it still would have happened at Christmas, or if she had decided that he was going to die, whether or not it would have happened closer towards the climax of the book.

Andrew: Right, yeah. That would have been so awkward for Arthur to die in the middle, and then you still have an entire half of a book to go through. [laughs] Like, put me out of my misery already.

Eric: [laughs] She’d have to write about every one of his kids’ grief.

Andrew: Yeah, for the rest of the book.

Eric: Yeah, so it would have just been untenable for him to die right now.

Andrew: And then Hermione would have been so jealous. Like, “Ugh, Harry, why couldn’t I have been the snake so I could have seen somebody die? And then I could have seen Thestrals.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “I’m so jealous, Harry.”

Micah: Are you back on this Hermione serial killer kick now, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: I like what Laura said, though, and I don’t think it would have only impacted the Weasley/Order/Ministry storyline; I think it would have been a much quicker exposure for Voldemort and the Death Eaters, and I don’t know if J.K. Rowling was ready to do that at this point. Because if Nagini ends up killing Arthur, then that’s proof that something sinister is going on, and I think eventually it would have led back to Voldemort, given some of the other things that happen in this book – that have already happened in this book, actually. And I’m also wondering, too, how they would have celebrated Arthur’s life, because really, the big funeral scene is for Dumbledore in Half-Blood Prince, and Sirius, the way that he’s killed at the end of the book, it’s quick, it’s clean, and that’s it, the book is over, and you don’t really get a chance to mourn for him. And I don’t really know that there would have been a big memorial for him there outside of the Order, who is there, versus the Weasley family, I feel like it’s probably a pretty big, extended group.

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I guess that would have… at least we would have gotten one proper funeral this book. Sirius just goes through the veil and that’s it.

Eric: Yeah, there’s not even a body.

Andrew: An Arthur funeral would have been so sad. I mean, it probably would have happened at the Burrow, and Molly and all the Weasley kids would be crying, and Harry would feel guilty.

Eric: Do you think it would bring Percy back into the fold a little bit faster? Because doesn’t it take till…?

Andrew: Oooh, that’s an interesting question. Yeah, he would have been there, but it probably would have been awkward, I think. I don’t know if he would have had a change of heart in terms of who he’s loyal to at the moment.

Eric: It’s always so clever to see, though, that we believe that it was totally possible for Arthur to have died. It was real touch-and-go. She shows urgency in this chapter, but for the reasons that I think we’ve uncovered, it really would have ruined the book if he had died – in its current state with how it’s planned out.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: As such, it’s kind of clean and neat how Sirius exits. Harry does trash Dumbledore’s office, but it’s really only Harry that mourns him that we see. And it’s clean; it happens at the end of the book. She managed to present a emergency-level event here at Christmas and still do the back half of the book, which is really cool. I think it’s really good story-plotting.

Andrew: Yep.

Laura: Yeah, and I also just think that in terms of choosing Sirius to die as opposed to Arthur, I really think that Sirius plays out his arc in this book, and had he lived and been present for all or part of the rest of the series, there would only have been two options: It would have been Sirius remains on the run and therefore cooped up at Grimmauld Place or somewhere, and is super moody about it, or there has to be an arc clearing his name so that he can come out in the world and be involved in everything, which drastically changes the direction of the series.

Eric: Right. It’s true, yeah. I mean, as being a Sirius fan, I’d love to have seen what that would have looked like; maybe Fudge himself sees Peter Pettigrew at the end of the book instead of Voldemort, and is forced, therefore, to clear Sirius Black of all charges, and what that looks like for the government. But yeah, I guess we’ll never know.

Micah: This was also just a further reality check for us as readers as to how dangerous things really are at this time, and I think also for the characters as well, to have Arthur experience this near-death moment, and to know that it could have easily gone the other way. It just shows how dangerous times are right now, and I think that was the point that J.K. Rowling was trying to get across, that any of these characters could go at a moment’s notice.

Andrew: So Arthur does live, and it’s time to go see him at St. Mungo’s, and this is our introduction to this wizarding hospital. It’s located at the front of a shuttered department store called Purge and Dowse Ltd., which I think was one of our Quizzitch questions a couple of weeks ago.

Micah: It definitely was. It’s a clever name for a storefront that allows you to get into a hospital, I thought, because of the words “purge” and “douse.”

Andrew: Purge your germs. Douse your germs? Purge yourself of your illness?

Micah: I mean, when you think about maybe dousing a cut… to your point, purging yourself of germs or an illness. I just… J.K. Rowling, ladies and gentlemen.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s a good joke. To our point that we were just making about J.K. Rowling really conveying the seriousness, here’s a book about a boy going to a wizard school, and there’s not just one, but several chapters set at a hospital. This is getting very real all of a sudden. And it’s funny because Mad-Eye Moody and Tonks, who are along with them on this journey to the hospital – presumably for a little beefed up extra security – Moody gives Harry a backstory of how they found this building. It’s in the center of London on a bustling Muggle street, and you see all these Christmas shoppers going by, not really paying attention to this dilapidated storefront.

Andrew: And this is the part I can’t really believe. So you enter the hospital by walking through this glass after talking to this dummy in the window, and nobody pays any attention to this building, so that’s why they can just walk through the glass and nobody notices. I don’t really believe that, but okay, I’ll suspend my disbelief for this moment.

Laura: I mean, it’s the same principle as Platform Nine and Three Quarters.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Eric: And the Leaky Cauldron as well.

Micah: And Grimmauld Place.

Andrew: Well, Jo’s taken this too far, then.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Come up with another way. I like the entrance to the Ministry, through the toilet.

Eric: Yeah, I agree. And I think this is obviously the Muggle entrance. There’s probably a way to Floo Powder into Mungo’s, but this is the public entrance.

Micah: That’s actually a really great transition, Andrew, when you were saying that you could flush yourself down to the Ministry, because Moody actually makes a comment about how the hospital couldn’t be underground like the Ministry because it’s just unhealthy.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And I thought that this was a subtle indictment on the part of J.K. Rowling about politics in general just being unhealthy, and that’s why they’re underground. Also why you flush yourself down the toilet to get there.

Laura: Yep.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, that’s just being a civil servant. But yeah, I think that the hospital, it being important that it’s above ground, also speaks to – I want to say ancient, but not really that ancient – recent historical remedies of getting fresh air, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: People a hundred years ago, if they were diagnosed with tuberculosis, were sent to live by the sea because of fresh air, and it has some benefits; there’s some documentation of that actually improving the symptoms. So the hospital being above ground means they can open a window.

Andrew: Yeah, and I mean, who wants to be trapped underground? The Ministry does have those fake windows, but then you have to deal with these people who are in control of the weather.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And that sucks, and we spoke about that earlier.

Micah: Yeah, you can’t piss them off, otherwise it’s going to be a hurricane.

Andrew: Yeah, for like, weeks.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: But yeah, I think… I like that they tried to build this above ground, and they didn’t bother putting it below ground. Health benefits aside, you would feel like they would figure out how to make it work underground; send some fresh air down there via pipes or more of these fake windows and have some air blowing through the fake windows.

Micah: What’s funny to me, though, is that MACUSA is above ground as a Ministry, and usually Americans have to follow in the footsteps of everybody else in terms of things like being more conscious of workplace benefits and… I don’t know, maybe that’s just my own personal feeling. But the fact that MACUSA had it right before the British Ministry did.

Andrew: MACUSA also had standing desks first.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: And treadmill desks, too.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. I’m glad you brought up MACUSA, because that effect is what I picture when they’re walking through the glass, the same effect of Tina taking Newt through the door.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Right.

Eric: Where if you look in one door at something, but you actually go in the other one and all of a sudden it transforms into what you see. And I think it’s funny because David Yates was… his first film was the Order of the Phoenix adaptation, which famously omitted the hospital entirely, and yet he still gets to do a cool going-into-the-building shot later with MACUSA in Fantastic Beasts 1.

Micah: And while you’re on that point – I know I brought it up a little bit later on in the document – but do we feel like there’s a missed opportunity on the part of David Yates, David Heyman – I know, pacing, Andrew – but to not include St. Mungo’s?

Andrew: [imitating David Yates] “The pacing, the pacing.”

Micah: It’s a place that’s referenced throughout the entire series up until this point. You always hear about this person going to St. Mungo’s, that person going to St. Mungo’s. And you had a chance to create St. Mungo’s, and you didn’t.

Eric: Yeah, but they also created the Ministry in this movie, and the budget for those sets is just so grand.

Andrew: Yeah. The Ministry alone, I think, was a big one for them to tackle, and then they got Grimmauld Place… well, I mean, every movie has a lot of sets, but it’s probably just a time thing, too. They just didn’t want to introduce the hospital in this two hour and change movie. There just wasn’t time for it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And the Department of Mysteries is in this book. I think they just asked Jo, “Will this ever really come up in the future?” And she could safely say at that point, “No.”

Andrew: Right. If the hospital played a pivotal role in Deathly Hallows, then maybe they introduce it here. Because didn’t she say, “Hey, you want to include Kreacher”? That was one she insisted on.

Micah: So the budget for St. Mungo’s went to Kreacher.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, doesn’t Kreacher look great?

Laura: Yeah, it’s why his model looks so good.

Eric: And St. Mungo’s is fantastic in the book because you get all the levels we’ll talk about. It’s a really wonderful back half of this chapter, which is partly why we’re separating it into two discussions, is because there’s a lot to talk about here. But the fifth film is so tight, and it manages to convey pretty much everything character-wise just by having an injured on the mend Mr. Weasley show up at Christmas dinner and raise a glass to Harry.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: And that one little moment, which takes place over 30 seconds, completely covers everything to do with the hospital, minus the Neville subplot for the rest of this book, so I thought it was really clever.

Micah: But isn’t one of those scenes actually deleted?

Eric: I’m not sure about that.

Andrew: We’d have to look it up.

Micah: I believe it’s a deleted scene.

Eric: In the hospital?

Micah: No, no, no, one of the Christmas scenes.

Eric: Oh, interesting.

Micah: But anyway. But I also don’t like hearing about budget, because you’re talking about the highest-grossing film franchise of all time – maybe not anymore, with Star Wars – but the point being they have money, okay?

Andrew: [laughs] I think it has to do with time.

Micah: I agree.

Andrew: But look, if we ever get a Harry Potter television adaptation, they’re going to have all the time and money in the world, and we can go to St. Mungo’s. And then they’re going to do a backdoor pilot, and we’re going to get a St. Mungo’s television series, like Grey’s Anatomy or Chicago Medical.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Those shows are hits.

Eric: They are hits. There was, I want to say, a miniseries about the Healers; it was a fan…

Andrew: I think you’re right.

Eric: … yeah, which was so cool, and I’m pretty sure it should be available by now, streaming. I think it was a couple years ago I heard that they were funding for it. But yeah, so there’s a lot here in St. Mungo’s, and that’s the kind of thing I think a television series – to your point, Andrew – would really relish being able to do, because there’s all sorts of people. Harry is on a quest; they’re going to see Mr. Weasley, but there’s all sorts of people that are just injured that are in the waiting area and in the lobby, not sure where to go. There’s a man whose shoes are eating his feet and he can’t help but dance around. There’s a woman who is behaving like a tea kettle.

Andrew: The cool thing about St. Mungo’s and visiting it is it shows us everything that can go wrong, and when we touch on the departments in a couple of minutes, it really breaks down just how many issues come up with magic. But to talk about Mungo’s in general, since this is our initial introduction to the hospital in the Harry Potter books, we had a couple of other questions. First of all – and I think these two are pretty related – how is it funded? And do wizards have health insurance? These are things that J.K. Rowling never actually talks about. Presumably, it’s funded by taxpayers; now, we know we never… I don’t think J.K. Rowling has ever said if wizards pay taxes, but you would think so, because this money’s got to come from somewhere.

Laura: Yeah, I feel like this is probably intended to be similar to the British National Health Service. I mean, she’s probably basing it off of the Muggle equivalent.

Andrew: And for us dumb Americans, what is so great about the National Health Service?

Laura: Oh, I’m not super well versed on it, [laughs] but effectively, people pay taxes and then they don’t have to pay out the nose to go to the doctor.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. That’s the bottom line.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Something we’d love to see in America, maybe.

Eric: Well, but we know that Lucius Malfoy also funds St. Mungo’s, or contributes to the Community Chest for St. Mungo’s Hospital, and that kind of has a…

Micah: What a guy.

Eric: Yeah, there’s kind of a little weird connotation there about what a current and active Death Eater being one of the main – or the only – people that we know that is giving money to this institution.

Andrew: So St. Mungo’s has a Patreon, kind of?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: Well, yeah, the Fountain of Magical Brethren.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, most hospitals do. I mean, hospitals have donors.

Andrew: Right, right. Yeah, and then you get your name in a brick or something like that.

Laura: Right, you get a medical building named after you.

Andrew: Yeah, or a MuggleCast mug.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Various benefits.

Micah: Don’t forget, Harry donates at the beginning of this book.

Eric: Oh, yeah. That’s right. He says, “If I get out of this hearing, I’m going to chuck a Galleon or whatever into the…”

Micah: He empties his whole bag, though, doesn’t he?

Eric: Oh, that’s right, that’s right, that’s right. He does. So it’s very doctor’s office-y, kind of. There’s people reading old magazines, old copies of Witch Weekly. But the one thing that kind of follows the thread of Lucius Malfoy donating to the hospital is security at this hospital is kind of a joke. There’s not a formal check-in process.

Micah: Uh-oh, Andrew.

Eric: I know, Andrew, prep the clip. But there’s not a formal check-in process. There is a main desk, but it’s a disinterested blonde witch. There’s a giant sign telling you where you need to go, and she will kind of tell you if you’re still confused, but there’s… Harry did not need to say his name. The Weasleys didn’t need to check in. It’s not like the Ministry, where you need a badge to get you through. They can presumably… they’re told just to go to the floor that they need based on their ailment and show up.

Andrew: This is outrageous! This sounds like a…

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: I got mad that time.

Micah: You really did.

Eric: [laughs] You really did! But Bode… I mean, Harry bumps into the would-be murderer of Bode in this lobby; he’s just going up to… he’s asking what ward he’s… I mean, this is a nightmare.

Andrew: Maybe there’s some underlying magic that’s keeping everybody in check. But yeah, it does sound like it’s another security nightmare! It’s just a thread of the series.

Eric: Yeah, and I wonder how much of it… I mean, at Hogwarts, I tend to think a lot of the security issues are for humor or strictly because of plot, but in this case, it might represent something a little bit more akin to innocence of the government, right? They don’t… because nobody’s been assassinated in the hospital wing before, presumably, that they don’t know to expect it, which is poor planning in terms of whoever’s running security. All the Aurors should know better. But yeah, also, we know from a future chapter that Gilderoy Lockhart is in here still, and wouldn’t people just be able to come and visit him without…? Wouldn’t he get mobbed, basically, if word ever got out? Because there’s no security; there’s no door person or anything else.

Andrew: Well, maybe there is, because he’s not getting mobbed.

Eric: Yeah. So pretty interesting stuff.

Micah: I don’t know how the National Health System really works in the UK, but to me, this just sounds like an overcrowded emergency room or an overcrowded arrival area, which isn’t uncommon here in the United States, where you just have people waiting around to see doctors.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think it’s uncommon anywhere, to be honest with you, because I’ve also lived in… I didn’t live in the UK, but I lived in a country that had an equivalent of the National Health Service, and even though you had great doctors and you didn’t have to pay crazy amounts of money to see the doctor, you still had to wait. [laughs] It’s every emergency room scenario that you imagine, where you walk in and there’s people with various ailments just sitting there waiting to see the doctor.

Micah: Yeah, and so that begs the question, is this really the visitor’s entrance, or is this the emergency entrance? And are they the same?

Eric: Yeah. I mean, they didn’t make Arthur Weasley stand in line here.

Micah: Yeah, where did he go when he came? He didn’t come through the window, did he?

Eric: Well…

Andrew: Maybe they Portkeyed him or something, straight to where he needed to go.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, God, a Portkey would make it worse. Can you imagine being tugged in your belly when you have broken ribs?

Andrew: Probably not a good way to bring him in. How about those Healers, though? We don’t see any of the characters in Cursed Child go on to become Healers, so one wonders how they do become Healers. I mean, we don’t… there’s really no physical education class in Hogwarts to learn about the body.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: You don’t once see Madam Pomfrey taking on an assistant or an intern. It would be cool if there were interns that were out of Hogwarts but went back to Hogwarts to intern for Madam Pomfrey in the hospital wing, and you’d get a sense that there’s some kind of tertiary education for Healers.

Andrew: But you did spot an assistant of sorts, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, so there is a Trainee Healer that’s mentioned in this chapter – I don’t have their name – but it’s on the ward that Mr. Weasley is in. There’s a plaque that shows who the Healer on call is, and then it also references a Trainee Healer who’s working with that person. So I’m guessing it’s some kind of apprenticeship program that gets people up to speed on this.

Andrew: Yeah, and we’ll learn more about this in the spinoff series.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Let’s talk about the departments at St. Mungo’s. So we have the ground floor, “Artifact Accidents.” Cauldron explosion, wand backfiring, and broom crashes. First floor, “Creature-Induced Injuries,” like bites, stings, burns, embedded spines. [shudders] God.

Laura: How does that happen? [laughs]

Andrew: What does that mean? Like, your spine is…?

Micah: What creature does that?

Andrew: What does that mean? A spine is twisted in a knot or something?

Eric: It must be common enough, because it’s one of the four categories of this whole floor. [laughs]

Andrew: I’m going to Google it and probably regret this.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I see a lot of cactus in this image search for some reason. All right, moving on. Second floor, “Magical Bugs.” Contagious maladies like Dragon Pox, Vanishing Sickness, and Scrofungulus. Sounds fabulous.

Micah: Sounds delicious.

Eric: I’m fascinated by Vanishing Sickness.

Laura: Yeah, me too. [laughs]

Andrew: What would that be like?

Eric: Like Marty McFly in Back to the Future, where you’re just slowly untethering from existence?

Andrew: Oh, you feel sick from… I see, yeah.

Eric: Something like that.

Andrew: Third floor is “Potion and Plant Poisoning,” like rashes, regurgitation, uncontrollable giggling. [laughs] So when that… Gillywater, is it called?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, when that gets out of control, I guess? The fourth floor, “Spell Damage.” Unliftable jinxes, hexes, and incorrectly applied charms. And finally, the fifth floor is the visitors’ tea room and hospital shop, so you can get a T-shirt to remember your visit. Exit through the gift shop, please.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Where are the Mungo’s mugs and shirts and hoodies and backpacks in the theme parks?

Andrew: Well, luckily, nobody needs to go through the hospital there. Nobody’s flown off of Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure yet, so they don’t need the hospital.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Isn’t it weird you have to go all the way to the top to get to the rest area?

Andrew: Yeah, it seems kind of backwards. I don’t know if the Wizarding World theme parks need a hospital land, because the parks are supposed to be escape from the bad things.

Eric: Well, it just… I was joking that they go above and beyond to do the travel agency of the wizarding world, and Hogwarts Railways has its own brand logo, and you know that’s not a thing because the Hogwarts Express only goes one place, but they do it anyway. So I’m like, “Well, they missed a merch opportunity.”

Micah: So does Globus Mundi, right?

Andrew: Globus Mundi, yeah, that travel agency.

Micah: And we don’t even know what that is.

Andrew: It’s in the park. We don’t know why they bothered with all this Globus Mundi. I bought a hoodie just to be on the cutting edge, but kind of regretting buying that because it serves no purpose.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We thought it might have to do with Fantastic Beasts, but it didn’t.

Eric: Well, not yet. You would think that J.K. Rowling, who came up with the logo – it’s a wand and a bone intercrossed – she’s given them pretty much all you could hope for in having a logo to come up with to put on merchandise, and they haven’t done it yet. So who knows?

Micah: Well, WB, if you’re listening – Universal, if you’re listening – pay Eric some royalties.

Laura: We would like a 10% cut, please.

Eric: Of all St. Mungo’s merch.

Andrew: If we were wizards and witches, which floor do we think we would end up on, inevitably?

Laura: Oh, definitely the third floor.

Andrew: Potion and Plant Poisoning?

Laura: Yeah, for the uncontrollable giggling.

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: I’d have too much Gillywater and just…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I would probably crash my broom a lot.

Andrew: Yeah. I lack patience, so I would probably mess up spells quite often, because I feel like they take focus and they’re very delicate to perform, so I feel like I’d be screwing them up a lot. So I would end up on maybe the fourth floor, the Spell Damage floor.

Micah: For me… well, I kind of agree with Eric with the broom crashing. I don’t know how good I would be at that. Took me a while to learn to ride my bike, so I can only imagine what a broom would be like.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I would be in traffic court for broomsticks. I know that’s not St. Mungo’s, but I’ve been to real traffic court, [laughs] so I just know that from a broomstick perspective, I’d be in the same place.

Andrew: We know that you love wearing your Hogwarts robes. Do you ever walk around with a broom as well?

Eric: I don’t. You know, no broom has given me the sufficient lift that I crave.

Andrew: Why don’t you try that vibrating broom that they used to sell?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Those are, like, three feet tall, flat. I will say, Micah, you and I at LeakyCon came across Peter, the Potter Collector, and he had the new… I think it was… was it a Firebolt or a Nimbus broom? And it looked real snazzy.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] I’m on eBay. You can buy a new-in-box Harry Potter vibrating broomstick. On the box, it says, “Jump on broom. Fly me.” This little kid riding it.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I don’t think you’d want a used version of that.

Eric: No.

Laura: Who thought that was a good idea?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: The broom that Peter had was the first broom that I said, “I actually want this.”

Andrew: Just a reminder, my birthday is coming up in about two months, and I would love an unopened vibrating broomstick.

Laura: Okay, we’ll bear it in mind.

Eric: How much is it on eBay?

Andrew: $120.

Laura: Yeah, we could split that three ways.

Eric: Ehh…

Micah: All right.

Andrew: You can use the MuggleCast debit card, maybe, too. I can do a review of it.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, but…

Laura: I don’t know. Maybe that should be for…

Micah: Can you put that on social media? I don’t think so.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I think that review should go on Millennial. I don’t think it would be appropriate for this show.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Tend to agree there. Let’s talk a little bit about Broderick Bode. I know, Eric, you mentioned him earlier, but he has a visitor that just works his way right past the inquiry witch, and there’s no security, to your point. And this is a little just drop, a little bit of a mention on the part of J.K. Rowling about somebody going to visit him, and we obviously learn later that he’s murdered while at St. Mungo’s, and we know that he, of course, is in this position to begin with because he was Imperiused by Death Eaters. So it’s just really disconcerting, because what if that person wanted to go visit Arthur?

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And don’t they do it with a plant? It’s like, a secret Venomous Tentacular, something like that? And it’s just… and so some Healer is just like, “Oh, it’s a potted plant. That’s cute; you brought your person flowers. We’ll put it by his bedside,” and then it’s a perfect cover story because in the middle of the night, it just strangles him, and you’re just like, “Oh, crap.” It just goes to show that they’re completely unprepared. They don’t take security seriously.

Micah: Well, not only that, I mean… and I don’t know that we ever learn who this person actually is that drops off the plant; could be totally wrong. But it’s mentioned that they have a trumpeted ear, or an ear trumpet; I forget exactly how it’s described. But shame on Moody, Tonks, as Aurors, that this person is literally standing right next to Harry, and they have absolutely no clue either. So I think the Order is a security nightmare, to be honest with you.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Let’s start awarding security nightmare points to various characters and places.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, if we reboot Chapter by Chapter, we can just keep a tally of all the security nightmares across the entire wizarding world.

Eric: Oh my God.

Micah: When we finally do go see Arthur, it’s mentioned that he’s in the Dai Llewellyn ward, and “Dangerous” Dai Llewellyn was a very famous Welsh wizard and Quidditch player for the Caerphilly – hopefully that’s how you say it – Catapults, and was noted for the risks he took during a match. Now, despite all these risks, that’s not how he ended up tragically passing. He died when he was eaten by a chimaera while on holiday in Greece, and his death resulted in a day of national mourning for all Welsh witches and wizards.

Eric: [laughs] So they’re going to the ward for serious bites, and Dai Llewellyn, this famous Quidditch player, was eaten alive by a chimaera. Pretty sick, but completely fitting with Jo’s humor. And here’s something else: So that bio, I’m pretty sure, actually comes across in Quidditch Through the Ages.

Micah: It does.

Eric: That book that J.K. Rowling wrote in 2000 for Comic Relief, and here is one of the very few references to J.K. Rowling’s other collected works in a regular, main Harry Potter book, and I flippin’ love it. I can’t get enough of this inter-connectivity.

Micah: And Laura touched on this earlier when she mentioned Healer-in-Charge; the name of the Healer-in-Charge is Hippocrates Smethwyck, and I just thought this was a nice name origin on the part of J.K. Rowling, given that Hippocrates is considered to be the father of modern medicine. So Arthur Weasley is in good hands if the first name of this Healer-in-Charge is any indication.

Laura: It’s just classic JKR.

Andrew: Arthur’s wounds, we learn, won’t close up due to the type of snake bite that he has, so he needs to stay in the hospital a little bit longer, and they’re continuing to give him blood-replenishing meds.

Eric: Yeah, the thing here is I want to know why specifically the wounds won’t close. We get it; Nagini is an unknown species of snake, but I wondered, is the specific reason that the Healers of St. Mungo’s…? This is your first line of defense against pretty much anything out there. Why don’t the Healers find – or can’t they find – an antidote? Is it because Nagini is a special type of snake, either that she’s the only person we know who is living with a Horcrux willingly, that there’s some kind of Dark Magic or curse in her bite as a result of that, or is it because she’s a Maledictus as well? What exactly about it prevents the Healers from being able to see to Mr. Weasley completely?

Andrew: I think it’s a hint that this is a big threat for Harry. I think that’s just J.K. Rowling’s implication. And like you said, this is a unique creature that they haven’t had to deal with before.

Micah: I thought that when Dumbledore sent away Fawkes earlier in the chapter that was going to be to come cure Mr. Weasley…

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: … because Fawkes has a history of healing snake bites.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Oh my God! That’s a huge plot hole, actually.

Laura: Yeah, come on, Dumbledore.

Andrew: You see this phoenix fly into St. Mungo’s; maybe that would have been a little much?

Eric: It doesn’t even need to go to St. Mungo’s. It could go straight to the Ministry and just cry on Arthur.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And it doesn’t need to fly into St. Mungo’s. It can Apparate, right? Just appear.

Micah: To spy on Umbridge.

Andrew: Well, I mean, the presence of a phoenix in St. Mungo’s would have been a little odd. Maybe if they couldn’t have patched him up after a couple weeks.

Eric: Wait, why don’t they just have a team of phoenixes as Healers at St. Mungo’s, and they just cry on the wounds and heal everybody?

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: This is a huge plot hole.

Laura: Well, I think they’re incredibly rare, so I don’t know if they could have a team of them.

Andrew: Breed ’em. I know a guy in Oklahoma who may be up for the task.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: I was going to say, Andrew, you sounded like you were from my parts just then. [in a southern accent] “Breed ’em.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: Joe Exotic, I think he can make some phoenixes.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, man.

Andrew: Everybody – well, adults – please watch the new Netflix series, Tiger King. It’s the best thing I’ve ever watched.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It’s pretty amazing. But I think as with anything now, with Nagini, we can look back with the knowledge that she is a Maledictus, but I don’t know that that necessarily, at the time J.K. Rowling was writing Order of the Phoenix, was factored into the equation. I think it’s more because she is a Horcrux and she’s carrying this Dark Magic inside of her, and kind of similar to how we’ve seen other Horcruxes, already with the diary, but now even more so as we head into Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows, I just think they have this added effect, and that’s probably what was causing Mr. Weasley to not be able to heal up right away.

Andrew: Well, speaking of werewolves – we just mentioned them a couple minutes ago – Arthur has a werewolf neighbor.

Micah: I just found it highly coincidental that Arthur mentions that Bill was just in to see him and visit him at his bedside, and that he has this werewolf neighbor. Just… maybe not foreshadowing; that’s not the right term. But Bill just leaves. The werewolf gets mentioned. I don’t know.

Andrew: It’s a nice peek into all of the things that can go wrong in the wizarding world. And it’s kind of scary to know that somebody who was just bitten by a werewolf is in bed in the same room as you.

Eric: And threatening to bite you. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, he does it jokingly, right? But you don’t know what’s going to happen.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and we see Mrs. Weasley express some concern about this, being like, “Well, Arthur, is it safe for him to be in this room with you?” And I think that’s really interesting, given the fact that we’ve talked on the show before about how werewolves could be a representation of people who suffer from blood-born illnesses in the Muggle world, and how those people are so often socially shunned and discriminated against. And Molly is, of course, super well meaning, and it would never be her intention to discriminate against somebody, but I think this is an example of how fear can motivate people to say or do things that they might not necessarily agree with under normal circumstances.

Andrew: Yeah, agreed.

Eric: I just love that Arthur is pretty much being a Chatty Cathy. He loves it there. He’s reading the paper when they come in. He’s been talking to the werewolf, trying to cheer him up; didn’t really work, oops, oh well. He’s kind of really in his stride right now.

Andrew: Isn’t he being a Chatty Cathy to keep the kids from asking him what happened and where he was, exactly? Because he’s refusing to tell his kids. The kids are trying to find out. Harry really isn’t pressing it because, well, he lived it. He’s not answering their questions, and it’s a little disturbing if you’re a child and you want to avoid the same fate. I mean, for all they know, Arthur was just out gardening and a snake attacked him.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s a pretty big snake.

Andrew: Yeah! Well, and so you should tell your kids… I don’t know. I get why he’s not telling the kids, but at the same time, if this was my dad and he had just been attacked, I would want to know everything, and I feel like I would deserve to know everything.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And the twins are the ones that really push it, and it reminds me of scenes in the movies with Arthur where he is trying to give information but then he gets the eye from Molly, and so he pulls back and goes in a different direction, and I feel like there was a lot of that. And I know… I think it’s Fred who ultimately pushes to the point of saying, “Were you guarding the thing that he’s after?” And that was just kind of end of conversation right there.

Andrew: So Arthur does happily bring up the case of the regurgitating toilets, which are brought up earlier in this book, and it turns out it was Willy Widdershins. I believe we had spoiled that earlier in our Chapter by Chapter series; sorry for anybody who wanted to… was in suspense. [laughs] But yeah, so Arthur is just trying to steer the conversation away and talk about Muggle things like toilets.

Micah: Yeah. And not only that, I mean, I think Willy is responsible for some doorknobs that have bit people, and those people are in St. Mungo’s, Muggles. And I just love how despite everything that’s going on, Arthur is over the moon about Muggles being in St. Mungo’s, and he wants to meet them.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: He literally wants to get out of bed and go and find them and just kick it and have a conversation with them. It’s amazing.

Laura: I mean, they’re going to have their memories wiped, right? So who cares?

Andrew: So the kids are kicked out of the room, and the adults have a talk with Arthur, and of course, the twins set up the Extendable Ears to tune in to the conversation. And Moody floats the idea that Harry might be possessed by Voldemort, and that’s where the chapter ends. Very terrifying, and it probably checks out for Harry, because he just saw through Voldemort’s snake.

Laura: Yeah, and he’s having to hear this alongside his friends who are hearing it, too, and he rips the Extendable Ear out as though that’s going to stop everybody from hearing what’s going on. This is such a cliffhanger.

Andrew: And of course, not entirely accurate, so at least there’s that. But at the moment for the reader, it’s pretty terrifying.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And the fact that Moody says that “We’ve always known the Potter kid is a little off.”

Andrew: Ouch.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Dude. First off, look in the mirror, bro.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Secondly, you have a magical eye and you don’t see these Extendable Ears?

Andrew: I guess he’s just not looking that way.

Eric: Maybe he doesn’t care. Maybe he’s happy to insult Harry to his face right through the door. [laughs]

Micah: I think he’s still loving that bowler hat that he was wearing to St. Mungo’s earlier on in the chapter, and it’s just still tilted over the eye so he can’t see anything.

Laura: Yeah, you know what? I think it just makes him feel sassy, too.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Sassy Mad-Eye.

Andrew: Was it irresponsible of Arthur to not have a talk with Harry after this? Because he doesn’t, as far as we can remember. I just… Harry deserves an explanation here.

Eric: But Arthur doesn’t have the info, really, to be able to give the explanation, right? It’s really Dumbledore who’s the only person who can explain what’s going on, Dumbledore who’s working behind the scenes with a cover story to explain why Arthur was down there, and Dumbledore waits till after Christmas break to bring in Occlumency and tell Harry, “This is what we need to do moving forward.” Dumbledore, should, I think, have made an appearance trying to explain things a little sooner than he does.

Micah: Agree.

Andrew: I just really feel like Harry is owed some extra information at this point. Sit in on that little adult chat; let him do that, at least, but just leave out the part where Harry might be possessed by Voldemort. I don’t know. He’s owed some information here. It’s really unfair.

Micah: I’m actually surprised that Harry is willing to do the Extendable Ears in this situation. I don’t know if it’s a bit of… I know it says he grins when he learns that he’s actually going to be a part of it, because it seems like Fred and George are cool with him now; I don’t know that they ever weren’t, but at least in his mind, there was some hesitation there. I’m just surprised that… I mean, what does he think he’s going to overhear? What does he think that is going to be said? I mean, it’s almost expected, for the most part, how this conversation plays out given what we know as readers, so I’m just surprised that Harry allows this to happen, because it just seemed like a foregone conclusion that they were going to hear that Harry was inside the snake when it happened.

Laura: Maybe he thought that they were going to give more details about what Mr. Weasley was doing.

Andrew: Yeah, where he was.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: These are all adults that he, for the most part, trusts. I don’t know if I would say he trusts Mad-Eye; I think he’s afraid of him. But I don’t think that he imagines that, in a conversation between the adults in his life about him, that something like, “Well, we always knew there was something off about the Potter kid…” I don’t think he imagined that being said.

Micah: And not only that; we learn that Molly had a conversation with Dumbledore that morning about him. I just… to me, for him to have to hear all of this, on top of the fact that it’s going to be revealed that he was in Nagini’s head, mind, whatever when this all happened, it’s a lot to take on, because he still feels isolated by these very people that are in this room having this conversation, because Dumbledore won’t man up and have a conversation with him. I don’t know.

Andrew: It’s not that he has to man up. He’s trying to keep his distance so Voldemort doesn’t know, right? We spoke about that last week.

Micah: Yeah, but again, Harry is 15. He’s a kid.

Andrew: I know. It’s unfair, Micah. I agree.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: But this is just the cards that we’ve been dealt.

Micah: Yeah, that is fair. That is true. I just feel like Harry probably has the biggest knot in his stomach at the end of this chapter. And one thing, though, I did want to go back to the beginning of this part of the chapter, because I thought that it was… you were talking about Moody just before and how Harry is afraid of him, and I think it’s quite the opposite with Tonks, despite the fact that he doesn’t want to have a conversation with her at the time about what happened. She asks him, “Do you have any Seer blood in your family?” But then she says that basically, the experience that he had could be very helpful, and I thought that was just, again, a nice little nugget on the part of J.K. Rowling to show how while Voldemort obviously takes advantage of this in this book, Harry’s ability to connect with Voldemort on this level does prove very helpful by the end of the series.

Eric: Yeah, Tonks kind of… again, it’s probably just she’s so recently been off Auror training, but they probably teach you to use as much as you can to your advantage, even if it is a perceived complication or obstacle.

Andrew: All right, so the Umbridge Suck count remains unchanged at 49 because she makes no appearances in this half of the chapter.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, well, that takes us to connecting the threads, and actually, I just thought… I have two here for this half of the chapter, but while we were just talking about Harry listening to a discussion being had about him in St. Mungo’s, it made me think of a third one.

Eric: Oh no.

Laura: Sorry, Eric.

Andrew: Oh, yes!

Micah: What do you mean, “Oh no”?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Laura works very hard on this section every week.

Eric: I know, I know, I know, but do you mean the Three Broomsticks convo, Laura?

Laura: No?

Eric: Oh, you don’t? Because they’re talking about Harry being Sirius Black’s godson in the Three Broomsticks in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Laura: Oh. No, so that, I think, you could make a connection there. But I was thinking about this happening in a hospital and healthcare type setting. So actually, at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, after Harry, Hermione, and Sirius are attacked by the Dementors but before the Time-Turner sequence, Harry is lying unconscious in the hospital, and he comes to as he’s hearing Snape and Fudge talking about him. And Snape is talking… Snape is being very disparaging about Harry.

Eric: Yep.

Laura: And Fudge isn’t really doing much to quell any of what Snape is saying, other than to say, “Oh, well, we’ve always had a blind spot as far as the Potter boy is concerned.” So there’s this kind of implicit acknowledgement that, “Yeah, Harry is a little weird.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And that’s what’s happening here. Nobody really confronts Mad-Eye and says, “That’s a terrible thing to say.” Everybody’s kind of like, “Yeah, yeah, you’re right.” But I thought that was just a fun little connection. In terms of some other threads, we have the werewolf connection here, of course. So Arthur, to his roommate, is like, “You know, one of my best friends is a werewolf.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: And he doesn’t drop any names, but he’s using that connection to try and foster some kind of conversation with his roommate in order to show that he’s like, “I get it; I know what you’re going through.” And then contrastingly, in Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape, when he’s having to lecture on behalf of Lupin, lectures about werewolves, and also assigns the class an essay about werewolves in an effort to really try and drive the students to understand what Lupin is. So in both of these cases, Lupin’s identity is leveraged for some kind of gain; I think in Arthur’s case, it’s very innocent, but it’s leveraged nevertheless. And then we have Harry’s paranoia, especially as it relates to creatures. So in Prisoner of Azkaban over the course of the book, Harry is just becoming increasingly paranoid about his connection to the Grim and why this Grim keeps popping up, and why nobody else sees it, and what it means. And then in Order of the Phoenix, Harry has this very singular experience of viewing the attack on Mr. Weasley from the perspective of Nagini, which nobody else has seen, nobody else really quite understands, and it really serves to isolate him and further drive his paranoia about what his connection to this creature is, just like he did in Prisoner of Azkaban with the Grim.

Andrew: Yeah, interesting. Thank you for sharing those.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to the different departments for really having it together at the hospital, so you walk in there and you know exactly where to go, and they can take care of the issues that you’re having. So good job, St. Mungo’s departments.

Eric: Yeah, I’m going to give it to Dilys Derwent. We saw her more in the first half of this chapter, but she gives Harry a little wink as he walks through the atrium, and she was responsible for alerting the Healers that made it in time to save Arthur’s life.

Micah: I’m going to give it to the inquiry witch. I know she got some shade thrown her way earlier on in this chapter discussion.

Eric: Yeah, she’s useless! [laughs]

Micah: No, she’s running point on all the traffic flow that is coming in through the emergency/visitors entrance, so kudos to you, inquiry witch.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Emergency/visitors. I’m going to give mine to George; it was his idea to pull out the Extendable Ears. He’s working on the pacing, you know? He’s pushing the story along.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: All right, and let’s rename the chapter now. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “Part Two.”

Eric: [laughs] Very meta there, Andrew.

Andrew: Sorry.

Eric: Yeah, we did this twice now because we did it last week. But yeah, so instead of naming it the long title, “St. Mungo’s Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries,” I just shortened it: “At Mungo’s.”

Andrew: I was actually… it’s funny you bring that up because I was just looking at the physical copy of Order of the Phoenix, and that chapter title barely fits in the header of this book.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If it was two or three more words, they would have had to reformat this entire book to make that chapter title fit. It’s got to be one of the longest ones in the series.

Micah: Yeah, definitely. I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “Bad Eye, Moody.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: He misses the Death Eater and he misses the Extendable Ears.

Eric: Oh, man.

Andrew: Some eye.

Micah: Should have been Bad-Eye Doody.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Useless. Security nightmare. I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “Magicare for all.”

Eric: Aww.

Micah: Love it.

Andrew: [in a booming voice] “Magicare for all! Vote for me!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, or you have a question about Chapter 23 of Order of the Phoenix, send it on in; MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send us a voice memo. Please do that; we love hearing from you. Just record a message using the Voice Memo app that’s already built into your phone and then email that file to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Just try to record in a quiet place and keep your message about 60 seconds long. No longer than that, please.

Micah: Now, am I wrong, or is the next chapter the Lockhart/Longbottom at St. Mungo’s piece?

Laura: Yes, I believe so.

Micah: That’s the real interesting part about St. Mungo’s. In my opinion, anyway.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: But this discussion was great. I’m not trying to… anyway.

Andrew: It was fun.

Micah: Quizzitch.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What color robes do the Healers of St. Mungo’s wear? Well, as of this chapter, it turns out they’re lime green. Correct answers were submitted by Arrogant Luck, Megan, Viyana, Sarah Russe, Caleb, Samwise, Jenny Beez, Cassie Drake, Catherine Jones, Terri Gan, Kate Young, and Meg writes in and says the robes are “as lime green as Billy Eilish’s hair.”

Andrew: [laughs] It’s just become a big trend. Everybody’s going with that look now; I see it out on the streets.

Eric: Yeah, I saw it in a Snapchat filter the other day.

Andrew: Wow. Who needs to color your hair when you could just use the Snapchat filter?

Eric: Right? So much cheaper.

Andrew: Looking at you, Laura.

[silence]

Andrew: Laura went to the bathroom.

Laura: I did not. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Salons are closed anyway, so it’s probably for the best.

Andrew: There you go. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: Just say, “Evanesco.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Micah: It’s all gone, right?

Laura: Yep.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Anyway.

Eric: So next week’s question…

Micah: Speaking of gifts.

Eric: What does Harry get Ron for Christmas in year five? Going to find out next chapter.

Andrew: Do you follow us on social media? We are @MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Not only do you get show previews, show clips, fun Harry Potter content that we find online, but you will also be notified about future live events that we do for the public, including those Quizzitch Live matches that we hope to do more of in the weeks and months ahead. That was just so much fun, and it was just so different from what we normally do. We’ve got to do that again in the future, so we will. We would also love your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We’ve gotten a lot of new patrons recently, and it makes us feel so good, and we’re having fun recording personalized messages to each of you as you pledge. So visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and once you pledge and you pledge at that Dumbledore’s Army level or higher, you will have access to years of bonus MuggleCast and all kinds of other bonus content. If you can’t pledge at the Dumbledore’s Army level, there is a lower level, and that will get you access to our livestreams. Thanks, everybody who is tuned in right now listening to this unfiltered, unedited version of the show. It’s a lot of fun, because you get to hear us trying to make it through an episode, [laughs] and the bloopers that come along with that, and our pre-show banter and our post-show banter, and there’s a little chatroom so you can chat with fellow listeners and us as we are recording. So no matter…

Micah: Andrew, you sound like my Bonjoro video.

Andrew: Oh, nice. I’ll have to tune in to some of those, those personalized videos that you’re recording for our patrons. So thanks again. Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We really appreciate your support. And that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #458

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #458, Portrait Party (OOTP 22, St. Mungo’s, Part 1)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re in some weird times right now, and we hosted a livestream earlier this week just to check in on all of our lovely listeners and that was a lot of fun, so if you haven’t checked that out yet, please do; you will find it linked in our social media channels and in the show notes of today’s episode. I hope everybody’s doing okay, and hope everybody’s enjoying the podcast right now as we get through this stressful time. I think… well, at least three of us are working from home now, right, Laura and Micah?

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: How’s that like for you guys?

Laura: I think it’s going to get old.

Micah: Yeah.

Laura: It’s been okay.

Micah: Andrew, I will say, I have a deeper appreciation for you now, too.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Aww, in what way?

Micah: Well, you work from home on the regular. This is not easy.

Andrew: Yeah. But now everybody knows how much it sucks.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It’s a challenge, though, because I mean, depending on what your situation is – whether you’re in a house, you’re in an apartment, how many people live with you – it’s hard to not blur the line between your work and your personal. And yeah, it’s tough.

Andrew: Exactly. Yeah, I completely agree with that. So for that reason, for all of you who are now working from home, hopefully you are dealing with it okay. If you need any tips, maybe hit us up on social media. We can try to provide some.

Micah: I noticed at the top of the show you said, “J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World.” I haven’t heard you say that in quite some time. Is she back in your good graces now?

Andrew: She never left my good graces. I know one thing that is soothing the four of us right now: We received some candles from one of our listeners, Devin. Devin really came through for us, because a couple months ago now, we were talking about the Hog’s Head and what it smells like. And Devin, as it turns out, is a candle-maker, and he can make any type of candle, any type of scent, so he sent Micah a candle that smells like goats.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: And it smells fantastic, by the way. I just want to let you know.

Andrew: Really?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Describe the smell for us.

Micah: Well… let’s do this right now. I have it right here. It’s not lit. It’s almost like a minty type of smell? Maybe I got it wrong. Devin probably would be able to tell you exactly what’s in it, but on the outside it does have a picture of Aberforth…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … and a screaming goat.

Andrew: Really!

Micah: It has a goat that is looking like it’s in some sort of distress, and there’s a lot of effects around its head.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: But Aberforth is at least six feet away from the goat…

Andrew: Oh!

Micah: … so he is practicing social distancing.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Perfect. Please take a picture and send that to us immediately, because I really need to see this label. So thank you…

Micah: Do you want me to light the candle? I’ll light the candle.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, please.

Eric: We all got candles from Devin.

Andrew: Yeah, mine smells like butterbeer, and it smells great.

Laura: Yeah, mine smells like pumpkin juice. It smells really, really good.

Eric: And I got one that has Harry’s birthday cake on it from Hagrid.

Andrew: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So thank you, Devin; it was really nice receiving those.


News


Andrew: So yeah, a lot of things are changing in light of the Coronavirus pandemic, and last week, we spoke about Fantastic Beasts 3 still planning on filming. Well, the day after we recorded, they decided that they were not going to proceed with shooting, so the film has been delayed again. Of course, it was delayed last year when they decided to work on the script longer, so now this is the second time it’s been delayed. Who knows when Fantastic Beasts 3 and every other Hollywood production will resume shooting? It could be a long time from now. It could be a month from now. We don’t know. If production is paused for a few more months, they could very well push that November ’21 release date for the movie, because they’re going to have to spend a lot of time on special effects and, of course, shooting the movie.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: The other thing that you had brought up when we did the live show that I thought was really smart was the fact that there are all these other movies right now that are being delayed, and that could also have an impact on when the third film is released.

Andrew: Yeah, there could be this domino effect where if some movies get delayed now, they’ll push other movies down the line, and the movies down the line will be pushed even further. So yeah, there could be this ricochet effect, so we will see.

Eric: Man, I just want all the movies to come out at once. Wouldn’t that be cool? Not all the Fantastic Beasts, but all the ones that kept getting pushed back, just released on one weekend. Say, “The theaters are safe now. The crisis is over. Go watch movies all weekend!” And then…

Andrew: “Come on out.”

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be nice, as long as everybody’s paying for each movie and not movie-hopping.

Eric: Or maybe like a film festival type pass, where you go and then it’s all weekend. But yeah, they pushed James Bond back. I was real upset about.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Ugh, I was so ready for that.

Andrew: That moved to November! Fast and Furious moved to next year! It’s crazy.

Micah: If they were smart, they would release these digitally and just put them behind a paywall.

Andrew: A couple of studios have done that so far, actually. In fact, Disney just released Onward, their brand new Pixar movie, and that’s available for rent for 20 bucks, which isn’t too bad if you think about how much movie tickets cost when you’re buying for a family of four. But it will also be on Disney+ on April 3. And Universal released a few movies already, also rentable for $20. So yeah, some studios are taking that advice, Micah.

Micah: As they should.

Andrew: So go ahead and watch Emma this weekend, the latest Jane Austen adaptation. I know you’re a huge Jane Austen fan.

Micah: Huge.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling is trying to do her part as well. She announced that she is granting an open license for teachers during the COVID-19 outbreak. “Teachers can now post videos of themselves reading aloud from the Harry Potter books to children prevented from attending school because of the virus. Teachers anywhere in the world are permitted to post videos of themselves reading from Harry Potter Books 1-7 onto schools’ secure networks or closed educational platforms. The open license for teachers is the first of several initiatives being planned to help bring Harry Potter to children at home, which will be announced shortly. Hashtag #HarryPotterAtHome.” So they’ve got some plans in the works in light of this outbreak. I didn’t even realize you needed permission from J.K. Rowling to read the Harry Potter books to your kids over the Internet, even on a closed network that nobody else has access to.

Laura: Yeah, I do think that’s a little odd, but I think the intention is good here, so I’m going to take that. But I’m really excited to see what the next initiative is.

Andrew: Right, like, are they going to make the ebooks readily accessible to the public? Or…

Laura: Maybe the movies?

Andrew: Maybe the movies. It all seems targeted towards children, though, at least for the time being. So yeah, we’ll see.

Micah: Yeah. But to Laura’s point, I think it’s just a formality so that there aren’t any issues that arise. She’s just putting it out there that it’s okay for teachers to be able to do this. But we actually have our own version of some of these books, right?

Eric: No.

Andrew: No, we don’t.

Micah: We started it on Patreon.

Andrew: What are you talking about?

Micah: Oh, come on.

Andrew: No, we don’t. J.K. Rowling, don’t listen to Micah. We don’t have our chapter readings on Patreon.

Micah: J.K. Rowling doesn’t even listen to this show.

Andrew: Team J.K. Rowling.

Micah: But J.K. Rowling should read. She should get on Twitter… I mean, I’m sure she has other things that she’s doing…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … but I’ve seen this; a lot of celebrities, right? Somebody told me the actor who played… is it Olaf in Frozen?

Andrew: Yeah, Josh Gad.

Micah: This is a great idea. Why not? I mean, people aren’t doing a whole lot of anything right now because they’re locked in and they can’t go out. But I think that would be a great opportunity for J.K. Rowling to show us all that she’s doing well, number one, but number two, to read from Sorcerer’s Stone or any of the other books.

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be cool.

Micah: Kids would love it.

Eric: Yeah. There’s actually a YouTube channel now where these stars are going; it’s Storyline Online, it’s called. But Kristen Bell… David Harbour of Stranger Things is reading a book called Snappsy the Alligator over online, and it’s just on YouTube. So there’s a lot of really cool… celebrities are pitching in. There’s a lot of really cool things that people are doing to ease this isolation.

Andrew: So stay safe, everybody. Wash your hands, don’t touch your face, and keep listening to MuggleCast. You won’t get Coronavirus from us, because this is all digital.


Sporcle game


Andrew: So we’re going to do two things today that are a little different, as if your world isn’t changing enough right now.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Nice intro.

Andrew: First of all, we’re going to play a game to lighten the mood. And second of all, for the first time, I think, in Chapter by Chapter history, we are only going to do a half of a chapter, and that’s because there is a lot packed into Chapter 22 of Order of the Phoenix. So we didn’t want to try and cram it all into one episode, plus with us…

Micah: This is how it all starts, though, by the way.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I’m just throwing it out there. This is how the whole Horcrux thing started. “Oh, let’s just do one.” Before you know it, we’re going to be cutting chapters into seven pieces.

Andrew: Well, that’s okay. We’ve got some time to fill. And now Fantastic Beasts 3 isn’t coming out till, like, November 2025, so…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We’re all stuck at home. We’re going to launch Page by Page here on MuggleCast, each episode dedicated to a page of J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World.

Eric: [laughs] “We’re talking about paragraph seven today.”

Laura: Sentence by Sentence.

Micah: Laura, you’re going to need to connect the threads between words that show up on each of those pages in respective books.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh my God, please no.

Micah: No “the,” “a,” “it.” It has to be “Harry” or something like that.

Laura: Gotcha. No definite or indefinite articles.

Andrew: Actually, for April Fool’s, we should do a Page by Page segment…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … where we just spend an entire episode on a page of the book. [laughs]

Micah: But you just spoiled it.

Andrew: That’d be so fun, though, just trying to vamp for a half hour on a single page of a Harry Potter book. Anyway, so let’s start with this game.

Micah: All right.

Andrew: Many of you are probably familiar with Sporcle; this is a website where you can play all kinds of quizzes and unique games that you can’t find elsewhere, I don’t think. So we’re going to play a Harry Potter name chain game. “Can you name the Harry Potter fact based on the previous answer?” There’s 55 of these.

Eric: Whoa.

Andrew: This is an eight minute timer, but we’re going to try to do seven minutes, because seven, and we’re Harry Potter experts. So let’s see how we do. Is everybody ready? You can see my screen?

Eric: So how is this…? The answer is based on the previous answer? Do you know how…?

Andrew: Exactly. Yeah, as soon as you see this, you’ll know how it works. You’ll get it.

Micah: All right. This is not like Heads Up, by the way. That was a lot of fun, that we played on Wednesday?

Andrew: Yes. We all did terrible in our first round.

Micah: No, the last one… oh, I was going to say, you did really well in the last round, but that’s because Laura and I, as Ravenclaws, were delivering such amazing hints.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ll give you guys credit. Sure. Takes two to tango.

Laura: I feel like when playing Heads Up, I am far better as a hint giver than a hint receiver. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. You were giving some great hints.

Eric: It’s definitely two different muscles.

Andrew: Everybody be sure to watch that. That’s a lot of fun, and that’s available to everybody. All right, so here we go. Play quiz. The Boy Who Lived.

Eric: Harry Potter.

Andrew: Good. Is best friends with…

Laura: Ron Weasley.

Micah: Ron.

Andrew: Who ends up marrying…

Eric: Ginny.

Andrew: Hermione.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: Ginny. No, Hermione. Oh my God, you scared me.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Oh, wow. What kind of…? Wow, Ron and Ginny?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Game of Thrones style.

Andrew: Who goes to the Yule Ball with Viktor, whose headmaster is…

Laura: Karkaroff.

Andrew: Karkaroff, who is interrogated in prison by…

Laura: Barty Crouch.

Andrew: Barty.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Whose son impersonates…

Micah: Moody.

Andrew: Mad-Eye, who dies while flying with…

Laura: Mundungus.

Andrew: Mundungus, who steals from the House of Black…

Eric: Black.

Andrew: Who helped create this secret document… uh, Marauder’s.

Eric: Yeah, map.

Andrew: Which fell into the hands of…

Micah: Fred and George.

Andrew: Whose sister is…

Eric: Ginny! [laughs]

Andrew: There’s the Ginny.

Laura: There’s Ginny.

Micah: Finally. Eric couldn’t wait for that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Whose friend in Ravenclaw is…

Eric: Michael Corner.

Laura: Luna.

Eric: Oh. Well, I think…

Andrew: Luna? Luna.

Eric: Oh, darn, it was Luna.

Andrew: Whose father is the editor of…

Micah: Quibbler.

Andrew: Which featured a Harry Potter article written by Rita.

Laura: Rita Skeeter.

Andrew: Who was a reporter at this event.

Eric: Triwizard Tournament.

Andrew: Triwizard Tournament, which was hosted by… Hogwarts?

Micah: Hogwarts.

Andrew: Whose headmaster is…

Micah: Dumbledore.

Andrew: Who is killed by…

Laura: Snape!

Micah: Spoiler alert.

Andrew: Who pretends he works for…

Laura: Voldemort.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Whose loyal Animagus follower is…

Eric: Peter Pettigrew.

Andrew: Oh. I was… [laughs]

Eric: You said Nagini?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Who was discovered to be alive by this professor… the answer was Wormtail.

Eric: Remus Lupin?

Micah: Quirrell.

Andrew: Quirrell.

Eric: Why would it…?

Andrew: Nope.

Micah: No, no, sorry.

Laura: Yeah, it was Wormtail. Lupin.

Andrew: Okay, Lupin was bitten by…

Eric: Greyback.

Andrew: Who also attacked this Weasley…

Laura: Bill.

Andrew: Who is married to Fleur, whose wedding is interrupted by the Patronus of…

Eric: Kingsley Shacklebolt.

Andrew: Who at the time worked for this man…

Micah: Fudge? Or no, Scrimgeour?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Good one. Who is the successor of…

Laura: Fudge.

Andrew: Who instituted himself at Hogwarts by means of this person…

Laura: Oooh.

Eric: Dolores Umbridge.

Laura: Boo.

Andrew: Umbridge, who elects this person as head of her Inquisitorial Squad…

Eric: Draco Malfoy.

Andrew: Whose Mother is…

Laura: Narcissa.

Andrew: Whose Death Eater sister is…

Eric: Bellatrix.

Andrew: Bellatrix, who tortures this student’s parents…

Eric: Neville.

Andrew: Who gets tortured by this professor…

Eric: Snape.

Andrew: Again? I think it’s somebody else.

Laura: It’s only once.

Micah: No.

Laura: Shoot, what are the brother and sister?

Eric: Oh, Alecto and Amycus Carrow.

Laura: The Carrows, maybe? Yeah, okay.

Andrew: There we go. Amycus Carrow.

Micah: There you go.

Andrew: Who teaches this subject…

Micah: Defense Against…

Eric: Dark Arts.

Andrew: Which was taught by this professor in Harry’s first year…

Eric: Quirrell!

Andrew: Thought I already had him.

Laura: No.

Micah: No, I missed that. That was my fault.

Andrew: Who meets Harry for the first time in this place… oh, the…

Laura: Three Broomsticks?

Eric: Leaky Cauldron.

Laura: Leaky Cauldron, yeah.

Andrew: The Leaky Cauldron.

Eric: [imitating Stan Shunpike] “That’s in London.”

Andrew: Which lies at the entrance to…

Eric: Diagon Alley.

Andrew: Diagonally. In which lies this wand’s… uh, this…

Micah: Ollivander.

Andrew: This wand man’s wand shop.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Tongue-twister. Who gets rescued from Malfoy Manor by this house-elf…

Eric: Dobby!

Andrew: Whose master was Lucius, who secretly gives Ginny this in…

Laura: Tom Riddle’s diary.

Andrew: Maybe just “the diary”? Yeah. Which hits this character on the head in the bathroom…

Eric: [laughs] Moaning Myrtle.

Andrew: Oh my God. Can I spell it right?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, I hope this…

Andrew: Help me!

Eric: M-Y-R-T-L-E.

Andrew: Thank you.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Whose bathroom lies at the…

Micah: Chamber of Secrets.

Andrew: We have about two minutes left. Which contains this creature…

Laura: Basilisk.

Andrew: Who Petrifies this Hufflepuff student…

Micah: Is it Ernie?

Eric: No, Justin Finch-Fletchley.

Andrew: That’s it. Who joins this secret organization…

Laura: Dumbledore’s Army.

Andrew: Whose meeting takes place in…

Laura: Room of Requirement.

Micah: Good thing we’re reading Order of the Phoenix.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Which is the home of this Horcrux… Diadem?

Laura: Diadem.

Andrew: Whose location was revealed to Tom Riddle by…

Eric: Grey Lady.

Andrew: Oh, ooh. Who was killed by…

Eric: Bloody Baron.

Andrew: Who is the ghost of this House…

Laura: Ravenclaw.

Eric: Slytherin.

Laura: Oh, [censored].

Eric: Because it’s the most recent answer.

Andrew: Slytherin, whose Head in the seventh book is…

Eric: Slughorn!

Andrew: Aw, good times. Whose favorite Muggle-born student was…

Laura: Lily.

Andrew: All right, and here comes the final one. Whose son is…

Eric: Harry.

Laura: Harry Potter.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Ah, tough one.

Laura: That’s the only one you get twice.

Andrew: All right, so we did that in about a little under six minutes.

Laura: Good job, guys.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: We got 100%. Average score on Sporcle for this quiz, 49%. Ha, ha, ha.

Laura: Sporcle wasn’t ready for us.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Sporcle is like, “Wow, did some Harry Potter podcasters just play? They sure know their stuff.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right, that was fun, and we’ll put a link to that quiz in the show notes if anybody else wants to try that themselves.

Laura: All right, well, before we move on to Chapter by Chapter, we do have a quick word from one of my favorite sponsors, Third Love.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing the first half of Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, and we will start, as always, with our seven-word summary.

Eric: Here’s a question: Do we do four-word summary because it’s half a chapter? [laughs]

Andrew: I guess so.

Micah: No.

Eric: And then next week… because we’re going to collect these at the end, right? And have the chapter art with the seven-word summary? So unless we want to have two seven-word summaries, we should split this in half.

Micah: No.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Are you going to give half an MVP and half a rename the chapter?

Eric: Well, okay, so then let’s say in advance, is this seven-word summary a summary for the whole chapter, or just for the part that we’re covering?

Andrew: I think just part one.

Laura: Yes.

Micah: Just part one, because I didn’t read the rest of the chapter.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I also stopped halfway through the chapter.

Micah: Yeah. Eric, you’re the one that gave direction.

Eric: No, it’s true. I really felt like there was a lot of stuff in the first half, and the second half has all those departments at the hospital, all crazy stuff going on. So it was me. I was like, “Hey, this is…” so I caused this mess. Apologies to everybody.

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: Or we can screw with them, Eric, and we can make this about the entire chapter, and we can watch them screw up and get lost. That’s their fault.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, I think Laura and I have a pretty good idea what happens.

Andrew: All right, fine.

Laura: I have read this book at least once.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: All right, part one. Go ahead whenever you’re ready.

Eric: Arthur…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: … survives…

Micah: … by…

Andrew: … receiving…

Eric: … care…

Laura: … from…

Micah: … portraits.

Laura: Yay!

Andrew: That was a quick one.

Laura: We did good.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: All right, so yeah, there is a lot that happens in the first half of this chapter.

Eric: Definitely, and it’s no surprise, I guess, that the chapter starts with Harry panicking after what he has seen or encountered or done. But we’ll remember at the end of the previous chapter, it was Neville that went and ran and got Professor McGonagall, and thankfully, Professor McGonagall is ready for action. She says, “We are going to see the headmaster.” But when they go to Dumbledore’s office, and the password is “Fizzing Whizbee,” I’m going to take issue with the complexity requirements of Dumbledore’s password. Does he want everybody to guess it? And that’s not really secure, is it?

Andrew: It does seem a little surprising. And just a password, just a verbal password, is very antiquated anyway.

Eric: Ooh, he should be doing two-factor authentication.

Laura: Yep, that’s right.

Andrew: Yeah, fingerprint, face ID… two-factor…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Andrew, you know what that sounds like to me?

Andrew: A security nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: Get two-factor, Dumbledore!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: There should be additional layers of security. This is a scary time right now.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Even if somebody gave the password and then Dumbledore’s wand lit up and projected on the wall and showed a video of who was downstairs, so he could be like, “Ah, yes, let Minerva up.”

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: Where’s his Nest Cam?

Laura: Or “Oh, no, not Umbridge.”

Andrew: Or maybe it’s simply that Dumbledore knows he could kick anybody’s butt.

Eric: Well, that’s… he’s got quite an…

Andrew: So they can just try. They can just try to come up to his office and see how that goes for you.

Eric: His ego, man. He’s just like, “Yeah, come what may.” Or maybe it’s that the gargoyle is so loud when it turns that he’ll hear them coming a mile away. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, get a little warning.

Micah: Although… I don’t think so, because… well, maybe they do. Because it’s only when McGonagall knocks on the door that they quiet down, so I don’t think they can hear the gargoyle.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. They were partying so loudly up in there.

Micah: I know. Dumbledore clearly has a portrait party every night with all those former headmasters and headmistresses.

Eric: Yeah, there’s definitely a commotion going on. But sweeping back to just passwords real quick: We’ve seen so many ways of protecting areas, especially the Tom Riddle way, which is, like, wound yourself. But it just seems funny and silly to me that there isn’t a stronger password, or that it’s guessable because it’s… if Draco, for instance, wanted to kill Dumbledore, all he really needs to do is come with a list of Honeydukes items, and eventually he’d get in and be able to do it.

Micah: But is it that simple? In the sense that, to me, simplicity… most people would assume a password to be far more complex, right? And that goes to Dumbledore’s character, right? Not only is it kind of witty, but it’s also not exactly what you would expect it to be. You would expect it to be something more difficult.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: Yeah, you’d expect it to be, like, capital A, ampersand, percentage sign…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Can you imagine verbally dictating that?

Andrew: … asterisk, lowercase E, uppercase W, number two… [laughs]

Micah: And I kind of think that the gargoyle would attack or do something if somebody was trying to break in who wasn’t supposed to be there.

Andrew: Or we saw earlier in this book, the girls’ dormitory staircase turns into a slide. Maybe his staircase turns into a slide if Death Eaters try to walk up those stairs.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, so I looked it up and the previous list of passwords that Dumbledore has used… just for fun, because there’s been six of them that we’re privy to. Acid Pops, Cockroach Cluster, Fizzing Whizbee, Lemon Drop, Sherbet Lemon, and Toffee Eclairs.

Andrew: Cockroach Cluster. That’s a candy?

Eric: Yeah, it’s…

Andrew: Ew.

Eric: They sell them at Honeydukes in the park, too.

Andrew: He just wanted one particular part of that candy in a password.

Eric: [laughs] Wow. Wow.

Micah: The Cluster, right?

Andrew: Cluster, yeah.

Eric: But yeah, the portraits, they are having a grand old time, aren’t they?

Andrew: Yeah, it seems like we learn in this scene that Harry does walk in on a party of sorts, and Dumbledore hangs out with all these portraits every night, perhaps. I mean, they’re all sitting there anyway, and he’s there every night, so why shouldn’t they all converse? And if you think about it, these are the headmasters of Hogwarts over hundreds of years; they must all have an incredible amount of knowledge that they can share with one another, so maybe these parties are just them exchanging information.

Eric: Yeah, definitely. And I think it’s a good way of… I think Dumbledore uses them as an extension of his thoughts, to converse, to say things out in the open with these former headmasters.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But I think that’ll be something that we talk about through the rest of this discussion, too, is how much knowledge do those portraits have? Are they able to retain the knowledge of conversation, and how much do they give in return? Is somebody from the 1700s able to say to Dumbledore, “Well, we had this problem at Hogwarts when I was headmaster, and here’s how we fixed it,” or is it a little bit more of a surface level kind of thing?

Andrew: I think the impression that we’ve been given from J.K. Rowling is it is their personality. I don’t know if she’s ever addressed the knowledge. I would think they’re able to share most of their memories, because their memories do in part to find their personality.

Eric: Yeah. I think that she has definitely revealed in an interview or called them imprints or shadows. They’re merely,… she kind of downplayed how much of their actual person was in it, specifically when talking about Dumbledore, because somebody said to her, “Oh, but now Dumbledore’s portrait is up there, you can just go ask him anything and it’d be just like talking to Dumbledore.” And I think in Cursed Child, she wrote… she kind of solves that a little bit, or maybe goes back on it a little bit with how Harry is able to talk to Dumbledore.

Andrew: She does say on Potter-No-More that these portraits would not “be capable of having a particularly in-depth discussion about more complex aspects of their lives; they are literally and metaphorically two dimensional. They are only representations of the living subjects as seen by the artist.”

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: I don’t know, though. What could they be talking about every night in Dumbledore’s office if they don’t have much depth to them? “Did you see what Fawkes did today? Ha, ha, ha!”

Laura: It does seem like throughout this chapter – I mean, or at least this portion of the chapter – they’re all very interested in the hot goss. They’re all pretending to sleep, but they’re really listening and peeking through their eyelids a little bit, so I could see it very much being surface-level conversation or bickering with each other. Because they all seem really…. they seem to have a propensity for doing that, too. It’s like one of them says or does something, and the rest of them erupt in response to that thing.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah. That’s got to be really annoying, though, by the way, if you’re trying to work. Think of all the important things Dumbledore is trying to solve for, and he’s got 50 different people just yelling at each other. I wonder if he can just put them on silent or do something. Mute, maybe?

Eric: [laughs] Do Not Disturb mode. But I do think that after becoming portraits, these individuals that are inside the portraits can probably retain memory, right? I mean, we see as much from the Fat Lady. She knows who the students are. She’s constantly tracking what… because only Gryffindors can get in, so she kind of is keeping an eye on who’s who; she’s learning the new students every year. I feel like by now, surely the oldest of the portraits would be basically a real person in so far as just experiences would build them up. So I think that even if they were just an artist rendering at first, they’re more now, and there’s more to that in just a moment.

Micah: Yeah. But one thing, though, too – and I apologize, Laura, if you have this later on in connecting the threads – but if you go back to Prisoner of Azkaban, that’s really where I felt we were introduced to portraits’ importance in terms… and the ability to shift between, right? We see it with the Fat Lady when she’s attacked at Gryffindor tower by Sirius, and then Sir Cadogan.

Laura: Yeah, and I love that connection because when we see it in Prisoner of Azkaban, a lot of the portrait moments that we get are more comical, whereas here we actually see the portraits being very useful, and really the only reason that Arthur Weasley lives.

Eric: Right, definitely. So we’ll talk more on the portraits in just a sec, but I had to ask… as soon as McGonagall and Harry come into Dumbledore’s office, Dumbledore says, “Oh, it’s you, Professor… and… ah.” He doesn’t really say, “Oh, Harry is here,” or, “Oh, hello, Harry.” And it really reminded me of the barrier that Dumbledore has had to put up to really ignore Harry’s pain all year. It seems like he’s gone so far that he’s not even going to say, “Oh, hello, Harry,” or acknowledge his… he’s gone the other end of the extreme of ignoring him, that he really won’t call him out. And we see this… Harry is telling his whole story, and Dumbledore is really not even looking at him, not once.

Andrew: Well, Dumbledore is having a party with the portraits and McGonagall comes in, and it’s like, “Oh, McGonagall, come on, join the fun! You’re going to be headmaster one day anyway, so you should be a part of this.” And then, “Oh, there’s the buzzkill, Harry Potter.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “My scar hurts. Umbridge hates me.”

Micah: He doesn’t even… how about Ron? Poor Ron doesn’t even get acknowledged.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Poor Ron.

Micah: He doesn’t even get a “Ah.”

Eric: Dumbledore is pretty far gone.

Micah: But I think this whole… this goes to the point of what is wrong with Dumbledore right now, from the standpoint of not wanting to interact with Harry at all. It’s just beyond a level of disrespect. It’s just… from a reader standpoint, I think there’s a growing frustration that we all have now, from Harry’s standpoint, with Dumbledore, because he’s not even acknowledging him. He’s not talking to him.

Eric: It just doesn’t seem like the level of hustle that you would expect when a member of the Order of the Phoenix has been murdered. I mean, is there this need for a security check? Wouldn’t you originally…? I mean, wouldn’t you really…? If you know that Arthur Weasley is on tonight at the shift of watching the door that’s not supposed to be known about…

Andrew: That’s true.

Eric: Do you really then need to go through 50 questions? He asks Harry how he sees it, or how he saw the message; he chastises Harry for misunderstanding him, that it was actually a direct question, meant exactly as he asked it. Silly Harry, of course. And then from there on, he then goes and plays with some of his gizmos and does this other stuff before calling on Everard and Dilys, the portraits.

Micah: Well, I mean, I know I just really kind of gave it to Dumbledore, but at the same time, I think he’s trying to figure out – because we know what happens later on in this book – whether or not what Harry is seeing is actually real.

Andrew: Because maybe Voldemort is manipulating what Harry is seeing.

Micah: Exactly.

Eric: But if he suspects that, it’s kind of past the point where he should be clueing Harry in, right? Harry, in this moment, can only feel hurt by the fact that Dumbledore is behaving this way, when in fact, if he had just come clean earlier and say, “I heavily suspect there’s a connection between you and Voldemort that he will manipulate,” then Harry could at least have a part of the puzzle as to why he’s being ignored.

Micah: No, I agree, and he ends up tasking the worst possible person for Harry to go through this whole process with, in Snape.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I do think he is trying to figure a lot of things out in his mind right now, and there’s still something about him not wanting to interact with Harry that just doesn’t sit right with me as a reader.

Andrew: But the problem is Dumbledore doesn’t want Voldemort to think that Dumbledore and Harry are close.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: That’s why he’s keeping the distance between the two of them.

Eric: So he won’t even say his name, “Oh, Harry’s here,” let alone…

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, don’t want to trigger any bells in Voldemort’s brain. “Did I hear Dumbledore say ‘Harry’? It’s time to tune in!”

Laura: Voldemort has that keyword set up in his Horcruxes.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Keyword alert.

Laura: Anytime anyone says “Harry,” they come to life.

Andrew: The Google news alert.

Laura: “Breaking news!”

Andrew: “Somebody wrote about Harry.”

Eric: So let’s get back to the portraits. So Dumbledore calls upon two portraits in his office, Everard and Dilys, and he says to Everard, “Make sure he is found by the right people.” And Dilys, we’ll talk about – actually, she shows up in the back half of this chapter, too – but he sends her… so presumably Everard… actually, not presumably; it’s described. Everard has a painting of himself hanging at the Ministry, and so he is able to raise the alarm among a group of people who would be helpful towards Arthur, who probably shouldn’t be down there.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: They’re going to go find him. They’re going to pull him up. And then Dilys has another painting, we’ll find out, at St. Mungo’s, so she is able to just…

Andrew: Perfect!

Eric: Yeah, it’s absolutely perfect. And it makes me wonder… the rest of these headmasters, they were such important people, Dumbledore says, that many of them have multiple portraits of themselves of the same person that they can just… now they’re visiting that way instead of just going into each other’s portraits in the same room where they’re hanged; they’re going to their other selves. And it makes me wonder where everyone else is, all the other headmasters might have… it’s essentially a great spy network.

Andrew: Yeah, it is. Well, and it’s also making me wonder if this was Dumbledore’s plan all along? This was one of his backup plans the whole time? He had a portrait at the Ministry, so if, God forbid, anything ever happened to a member of the Order, he would be able to quickly relay a message to somebody at the Ministry. “Hey, go check in on the Hall of Prophecies. Go check in down at the Department of Mysteries, because I think I’ve heard an attack.”

Eric: Yeah, and it is said that there are no portraits down there, in the lower levels.

Andrew: Right, he’s a floor up or something.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, so he had to scream until people came, which, that would be…

Andrew: “I heard something all the way down there.” “You heard something all the way down there?” “Yes, just go look!”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Which, here’s another thing: It’s not really the most expedient way to save somebody’s life. Arthur is bleeding out! The fact that this…

Andrew: But that’s the best he can do. And I mean, it’s a pretty good system. It works.

Eric: Well, but I know that Micah asked the question, too, a little later on, but is this Dumbledore’s plan, then? Is this really the best way to protect members of the Order of the Phoenix? Arthur really was on his own completely down there. It’s just kind of shocking that there wasn’t a more direct way of protecting, or at least having a buddy… do a buddy system kind of thing.

Micah: Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was wondering, is it seems like the Order really has no other security measures in place should one of their own be found and attacked. And we know that what they’re guarding is extremely important, and that not only is their side trying to protect it, but it’s clear that the other side is trying to retrieve it. And Sturgis gets mentioned a little bit later on when we’re at Grimmauld Place about… or maybe it’s even in Dumbledore’s office, but I can’t remember. So we know that there’s already been attempts by Voldemort’s side to try and infiltrate, so given that one of their own has already fallen, now this is the second member that has been attacked, seems like there’d be a little bit better security in place, or something that’s there… to your point, a buddy system. I don’t know what it is, but it just seems really poor planning on the part of Dumbledore, and risky too. I mean, the Order is not in huge numbers right now, right? They don’t have a ton of people on their side, and they have the Ministry working against them. They’re trying to guard something in the place where their head person is totally in opposition to what Dumbledore stands for, so it just… there’s a lot of flaws here. That’s my point.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I just think it’s hard because Order members are really limited as it is, and we’ve already seen it established that if they get caught doing this, the repercussions are pretty severe, and it also risks outing the Order. So say if we had Arthur and Kingsley down chilling in front of the Department of Mysteries. And first of all, that raises questions about, like, “Wait, you guys are friends?”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: Because they pretend not to know each other at work. And then it’s like, “Well, what were you both doing here? What’s the connection between the two of you that had you both posted here?” So I get it. It does suck, because it’s really not an ideal system for people’s safety, but then Sirius does point out a little bit later in the chapter that Arthur did know what he signed up for.

Micah: My problem with all of this is that you’re relying on the off chance that Harry has a dream that he’s inside of a snake that’s attacking Arthur for them to know that Arthur has been attacked.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: There’s no alarm that gets sounded? Think about the coins that they’re using for Dumbledore’s Army. They couldn’t do something like that? Where Arthur, despite the fact that he’s been attacked, he was, I’m sure, still able maybe to reach in his pocket and touch a coin or do something that would alert the rest of the Order that he’s in trouble. It just seems very, very… it’s coincidental that Harry has this. I mean, it’s obviously written that way, but you know what I’m saying.

Eric: Yeah, you can’t reverse engineer this kind of a problem and expect it to be solved. It wouldn’t be if it were anywhere other than Harry. You’re exactly right.

Laura: Well, maybe Order members do have some kind of emergency system, but if I recall correctly, Arthur was falling asleep when he got attacked.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Damn, that kills the whole argument.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He couldn’t go and rub his coin quick enough to alert Dumbledore.

Micah: Sleepy Arthur.

Eric: This is Arthur’s fault, damn it. [laughs] But I was thinking of something that constantly monitors his vital signs or something, but then I remembered that Dumbledore, at some point, says to McGonagall that maybe Molly already knows that this has happened because of the Weasley clock, right? The Weasley clock has a spot for “Mortal peril,” and somehow it’s constantly monitoring the existential status of the whole family members, and why couldn’t they do this on an Order level as well?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: In Deathly Hallows, aren’t they all pointing to “Mortal peril” just because of the nature of the situation?

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, that’s right.

Micah: So it’s not like it’s a clear indication of exactly what is happening.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But if just one of them is pointing to “Mortal peril” in the middle of the night, that’s probably something to grow concern about.

Micah: That’s true. That’s fair.

Andrew: And maybe it’s brought up in your notes here, Eric, that does it chime ominously for “Mortal peril”? Because this is in the middle of the night; Molly is not sitting there watching this. Or maybe she is staying up watching the clock, because her husband is down at the Department of Mysteries during an uncertain time like this in the middle of the night, protecting something for the Order.

Micah: I just wanted to go back a second, because I feel like there could have been the chance that Everard’s portrait was just passed by earlier on in this book when Harry was at the Ministry. I don’t remember for sure, but I just feel like given… like you’re saying later on in this chapter, Eric, that Dilys, we come in contact with her again, I wonder if that’s just a J.K. Rowling thing to just mention it in passing, and then obviously comes full circle in this chapter.

Eric: That’s a pretty cool idea. Yeah, Dilys winks at Harry from across the rotunda.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: And I think with Phineas, he’s tasked with going and talking with Sirius and making sure that it’s okay for Harry, Ron, and Fred, George, Ginny to be able to go to Grimmauld Place. And one thing that he says, though, that just piqued my interest, was he said that Sirius “has always had odd taste in houseguests.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And that got me thinking, who? Who else has been to Grimmauld Place that Phineas would consider to be odd? I mean, James is a pure-blood wizard, so I don’t think that the Black family would have any issue with him showing up.

Eric: Right.

Micah: I’m wondering, did Remus come over? Did he transform one time, maybe? Run around the house, chase Kreacher…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He’s definitely referring to the Marauders.

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Micah: But Pettigrew, maybe? Maybe some lady friend?

Andrew: [laughs] Maybe, maybe. Phineas gets peer pressured into going to relay the message to Sirius, and Dumbledore starts reviewing an instrument. Nobody really understands what it’s doing. It’s spinning, it’s making noises, and he pulls up a snake. He’s talking to himself out loud, and he says, “But in essence divided?” And we didn’t really know what this meant, but J.K. Rowling did say later post-Deathly Hallows in a webchat that in this moment, Dumbledore learned of Nagini being a Horcrux, and Harry’s connection to Voldemort via Horcruxes. So this is just some classic writing from J.K. Rowling, where we see Dumbledore have this major revelation, but it just gets kind of glossed over. It’s kind of like Dumbledore’s twinkle in his eye moment, and there’s just this major realization, and none of us know the significance of it. Obviously, Dumbledore, as usual, isn’t announcing what he just discovered. But in bonus MuggleCast today, we will talk more about this instrument. It sounds like it’s a Pensieve, according to J.K. Rowling herself?

[Eric makes a confused noise]

Andrew: Yeah, so we’ll talk about that over on Patreon. But yeah, Dumbledore does have a big realization here.

Micah: But this is all following his interrogation of Harry, right? He’s asking him all these questions, and Harry is a bit dumbfounded because he doesn’t understand how Dumbledore could possibly know really what it is that he’s experienced. But he does, because that’s Dumbledore.

Eric: The other aspect of this is when he’s grilling Harry, or once he’s just finished, he leans over to Fawkes and is having Fawkes, I guess, kind of stand guard for them? It’s a really interesting thing. He says to Fawkes that they need a warning.

Andrew: This made me think of the song “Calling All Angels” by Train. [singing] “I need a sign to let me know she’s here.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: You know, people don’t like it when you sing, Andrew. I don’t know if you saw that review.

Andrew: But this was a brilliant connection, so I had to bring it up.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I love it. I think it’s great.

Andrew: Make the Music Connection in reverse.

Micah: It’s well done.

Eric: Oh my gosh. Yeah, and so this feather… basically a feather appears in the middle of the office, and then Dumbledore says, in explanation, “It is Fawkes’s warning. She must know you’re out of your beds… Minerva, go and head her off – tell her any story.” So Fawkes is, I guess, clearly spying on Umbridge at this point.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: I can imagine Fawkes being like, “Oh, crap. I get Umbridge duty out of all this?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “I’m this legendary bird, I work with Dumbledore, and I’m stuck following this toad? No, thank you.”

Micah: Yeah, exactly. But it made me think, though, too, how is it that Umbridge knows that they’re out of bed? Because…

Eric: Right.

Andrew: What the hell?

Laura: I think it’s Mrs. Norris, because they pass her.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Darn it, J.K. Rowling is so clever sometimes.

Micah: McGonagall tells Mrs. Norris basically to go F off, who probably goes to Filch, who goes to Umbridge. But if it is… I still think that this is McGonagall’s situation to worry about, right? She’s the Head of Gryffindor, so if a couple of her students are out of bed, then it’s her responsibility to deal with it, not Umbridge’s.

Eric: Right.

Micah: So I was a little surprised, though, that Dumbledore sends McGonagall in this moment. Maybe that’s the reason why. But why not have Fawkes try and derail her? Could you imagine what would happen if Umbridge came face-to-face with this big flaming bird in the middle of the Hogwarts hallway?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She’d probably crap her pants and run the other way, or she’d go… I don’t know, but you know what I’m saying?

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I also thought initially when Dumbledore said that he needed a warning – and this is because it’s been a while since I’ve read this chapter – I thought Fawkes was basically going to go from member to member of the Order and let them know what has happened; maybe that’s the sign that something was wrong. But no, it’s Umbridge duty.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, if Fawkes can Apparate and Disapparate, which we’re just saying is what’s happening here now, he could presumably warn the other members of the Order right away. Dumbledore could give him a letter to carry or something. But it definitely… I think the problem is if Fawkes were to confront Umbridge directly, she would know that it was Dumbledore who was confronting her, right?

Andrew: That’s true.

Eric: It’s such a… it’s the calling card. It’s a telltale sign. It’s like, “Dumbledore sent his bird, so…”

Micah: But how does Fawkes know? That’s my question. Or how to… Umbridge is just in her office and Fawkes is lurking outside the window, and all the little kittens are running inside because they’re scared that there’s this big-ass flaming bird outside of the window? I don’t know. How is Fawkes able to essentially tail Umbridge?

Eric: Well, maybe, like Dumbledore, Fawkes has other means of making himself invisible [laughs] than wearing a cloak. He can just… in this chapter, Fawkes Apparates and Disapparates and also goes invisible.

Andrew: Yeah, and transfers this feather across Hogwarts. So if Fawkes can do all these things, then I think he can easily track Umbridge.

Eric: So is this something that a regular phoenix could do? Or is it because, like we’re learning in Fantastic Beasts… I mean, here’s the thing that is the real joy of reading these types of things in Order of the Phoenix, is because it could play a part in future Fantastic Beasts films with the Dumbledore and phoenix connection. They’re real tight in this chapter, and they can do weird, crazy magic.

Micah: Yeah, and I would say “beasts,” quote, unquote, right? They factor in a lot to this chapter, whether you’re talking about Nagini, you’re talking about Fawkes, Mrs. Norris… not a beast, necessarily, but still…

Andrew: [in an intense voice] A beast.

Micah: And then even Kreacher, right? So in terms of means of communication, they all kind of play a role in this chapter as it relates to that.

Eric: Absolutely.

Andrew: So through all of this – and we mentioned this a few minutes ago, so we don’t have to dive into it too much – but Dumbledore is shying away from looking at Harry, and decides to send Harry, Ron, and the rest of the Weasleys back to Grimmauld Place as a precaution. Right before they Portkey back to Grimmauld Place, Harry suddenly has this fit of rage; he feels like a snake again, and he wants to attack Dumbledore. And Harry, in this moment, does not understand why he’s feeling this way, and he reports this to Sirius, and he’s trying to figure it out, but we know now in hindsight this is the Horcrux talking.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Do we think Dumbledore allowed his eyes to meet Harry’s so that Harry would have some clue what was going on?

Andrew: I don’t think so. I think it would just be by accident.

Eric: Yeah, they’re all about to grab the Portkey, and then Dumbledore’s eyes kind of casually look over and that’s when Harry feels it. But it does have that effect of giving Harry something to… I wanted to say gnaw on. To think about.

Andrew: “Chew on this, Harry, while you’re at Grimmauld Place for a little while.”

Micah: Yeah, as if he doesn’t have enough to be anxious about, he gets to think about the fact that he wanted to rip Dumbledore’s face off in that moment.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But I wonder, though, too, we talked Horcrux, but I do think there’s part of him that enhances this moment because he is so frustrated and pissed off with how Dumbledore has been treating him since the end of last term, right? There’s been no communication, no eye-to-eye contact, minus this moment. It’s just been complete isolation for Harry. And this is somebody that he’s normally very close with, and so I think that it just escalates the situation for him.

Laura: Well, and we definitely see in Deathly Hallows that being in close proximity to a Horcrux for an extended period of time will exacerbate your emotional reactions to things, so that makes total sense here. But it does make me wonder, at any other point in the series where Harry has had an overreaction to something, is that the Horcrux?

Andrew: It’s possible. I mean, but Harry has overreactions to Snape being a you-know-what, or Umbridge or Draco, and those are all deserved, whether or not Harry is a Horcrux. But Sirius tries to downplay Harry’s feelings in that moment before entering the Portkey, and nobody does bring up to him, “Hey, maybe it could just be that you’re mad at Dumbledore. You’re mad that you haven’t been able to see him, spend time with him, and you’re mad that Dumbledore is ignoring you.”

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I completely agree with your point, Micah, but he doesn’t consider that.

Eric: Yeah. Who considers how Harry is feeling? And Harry hates Portkeys so much, [laughs] because they’re so uncomfortable, that feeling of being pulled behind your navel? Just… ugh, your core.

Andrew: Harry didn’t consider that either. Maybe that’s why he wanted to kill Dumbledore in that moment.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Not a Portkey, no, no! I just got to see you. I wanted to party with you and the portraits.”

Eric: Portrait party. I feel like when they land at Grimmauld Place, this is so easy to miss, but it’s kind of a crucial moment. The book says, “His feet hit the ground so hard that his knees buckled, the kettle clattered to the ground and somewhere close at hand a voice said, ‘Back again, the blood trader brats, is it true their father’s dying…?’ ‘OUT!’ roared a second voice.” So Sirius has commanded Kreacher to go away.

Micah: Yeah. How do we feel about this? For me, right, this is what sets him free, or sort of begins the process of him informing on the other side. In my mind, he’s just telling him to get the bleep out of the room, right? Which I’m sure Kreacher has heard many times from Sirius over the years, right?

Eric: Yeah, this is meant to be the linchpin. This is somehow meant to be more powerful, and this is what allows Kreacher to go visit Auntie Bellatrix. But you’re right, it is kind of similar; it doesn’t necessarily hold up under scrutiny, as far as it being something so distinctive that Sirius says, unless I’m misremembering. But they try and call on Kreacher later for breakfast, and he’s nowhere to be found.

Laura: Right, he won’t come. And what I thought was interesting was the description of Kreacher after Sirius tells him to get out. It says, “Kreacher was disappearing through the door to the hall, looking back at them malevolently.” And I just feel like that’s a very specific description there. I can see Kreacher being like, “All right, caught you now.”

Eric: Yeah, it’s definitely… this is the point where Kreacher takes himself to be free. Or not free-free, but… he’s still bound to the Blacks.

Micah: He pauses on the landing, though, too, from what I remember, and he listens in to Harry’s story, so he’s clearly spying and going to take that information, and that’s really the information that ends up being the most useful, I think, for Voldemort, when it comes to the end of this book, with giving him the fake – I don’t know what you’d call it – memory, or just what’s happening with Sirius inside the Department of Mysteries.

Eric: And we know that Kreacher was eavesdropping on Phineas Black as well, because he said, “Is it true their father’s dying?” He knows about the Weasleys and about what is happening with Arthur. Kind of a really interesting late night powwow with Sirius, as it turns out, and he really… we’ve talked at length, and even this book has brought up Sirius’s parenting skills, and whether or not he is a good guardian for Harry or anything, but Sirius really is able to successfully advocate for Fred and George in particular to stay and lay low. They want to go see their dad, and it makes perfect sense, right? They want to go to St. Mungo’s; they want to make sure he’s okay. But Sirius really has to – I mean, at times it seems like physically – hold them back, and he tries to explain, “No, what would it look like if you showed up basically before the rest of the world knows, and you know that there is something wrong with your dad?”

Andrew: It’s refreshing to see him be so responsible. We’re used to him being mischievous; we’re used to him being flippant, but in this moment, he’s acting like the adult, so good job.

Micah: And he restrains himself, right? There’s a moment where he looks like he’s going to hit one of the twins because of a comment that’s made about basically him being useless to the Order, sitting around Grimmauld Place all day, and he just… he’s able to almost internalize it, calm himself, and present these rational statements back. And I think it does show a mature moment, something we rarely see from Sirius.

Eric: Yeah, I’m quite proud of Sirius in this moment. [laughs] Sirius is my guy. But it’s really… the interesting thing… so they just have no news at this point; their ability to act is out of their hands, and I feel like I’m getting flashbacks to childhood. Have we ever had these just moments where we have…? It’s the long, hard, cold waiting.

Laura: I’m sure we’ve all been there at some point. Waiting on a relative in the hospital, waiting to hear the news, it’s so tense. And actually, reading over this section, it gave me flashbacks to my own memory of having to sit through something like this.

Andrew: Yeah, this is one of those things that you look at differently when you’re reading it as an adult. When we’re kids, many of us hadn’t been in this situation yet, so the perspective changes as you get older.

Eric: Yeah, real appreciation for the way that J.K. Rowling is writing it. But eventually, Molly arrives. The first thing she says is, “He’s alive,” which is good. That’s the news they wanted. But it’s so tense because the owl network is being watched; the Floo Network is being watched. The means of communication are so strict and limited at this point that she has to come there physically, and after several hours, that’s the news that they get.

Andrew: Yeah, maybe after this they should have a better method of communication to relay messages. Something like a cell phone?

Eric: Why don’t they just ask Hermione what she’s been doing with Dumbledore’s Army?

Micah: [laughs] Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

Andrew: Well, they try to black out Hermione from these Order meetings, and so Hermione is probably like, “Well, they don’t deserve my brilliance.”

Micah: Why isn’t she coming to Grimmauld Place, right? She didn’t get the invite. Nobody woke her up.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that too, so she shouldn’t share any of this information.

Laura: Well, also, they’re keeping Dumbledore’s Army secret, or they’re trying to keep it as secret as they can, because there’s a mixed reception to it among Order members. Look at how Mrs. Weasley responded to it, for example.

Andrew: Right. Well, Hermione could have just been like, “We use these coins just to talk with each other during class, not for any secret organizations that you wouldn’t approve of.”

Eric: Yeah, exactly. And then just kind of to wrap things up for now, what do we think McGonagall told Umbridge about why the Gryffindors were out?

Andrew: They were just being bad kids, and McGonagall gave them detention. You don’t have to worry about it, Umbridge.

Eric: But Umbridge now gets to oversee all punishments, right? So she gets to weigh in?

Andrew: Well, McGonagall said that she is going to leave scars on the kids’ booties.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: And Umbridge really liked that. She didn’t need to be convinced any further.

Eric: She was like, “Oh, Minerva, you fiend.”

Andrew: “I only went for the hands; you went for their rears?”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “That’s fantastic. Goodnight.”

Micah: [laughs] What is happening?

Laura: This is devolving very quickly.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, do you guys know what McGonagall told Umbridge?

Micah: No, I’m wondering how close this is, though, to the actual holiday, though, because in the previous chapter, they’re talking about what they’re going to do over Christmas, right? And they’re obviously now home early; they’ve gone home early before the end of term. So I wonder how that all gets explained away, at least from Harry’s standpoint. Because you could understand the Weasleys going to see their dad because of what’s happened, right? They exit early. But what about Harry? How does that get explained away? Do we know?

Eric: I mean, nothing’s ringing a bell on my end.

Laura: No.

Micah: I honestly…

Andrew: If you went on the HP Lexicon, you can probably find out. They have a timeline there.

Micah: I think McGonagall just Stunned Umbridge, threw her in a broom closet, and then just went to bed.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, you said I was crazy. So this leads into our Umbridge Suck count; it currently stands at 47. Umbridge obviously doesn’t have a major role in this entire chapter, actually, but I think we can give her one point for not just sleeping through the night without creeping on the kids.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: Yep.

Micah: I’m going to give her another one for wasting a Fawkes feather.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Oh, dang.

Eric: It’s not like those things just grow back.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: No, it takes a little bit of time, Eric. And how about for wasting McGonagall’s time?

Andrew: Poor Fawkes has to deal with Umbridge on a Saturday, I presume, night.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, I don’t know that we’re going to get to do any more Umbridge Sucks in the next half of the chapter, so we should at least take advantage of this.

Andrew: I think you have to be kind of fair to Umbridge. I hate to say that, but I think the nice thing about the Umbridge Suck count is we are genuinely trying to figure out how many times she did suck, so I don’t want to go too crazy.

Eric: I think it’s good at two.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s fair.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, well, we have some threads to connect. One of the first ones that I thought was really interesting between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix is that at this point in Order of the Phoenix, as well as the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, Dumbledore is including Harry and his friends in purposefully undermining the Ministry to save a key Order member. So we’ll all remember at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, Fudge is already at Hogwarts, the events at the Shrieking Shack have transpired, Sirius is locked up in a tower, the Dementors are preparing to administer the Kiss, and Dumbledore just hears Harry and Hermione’s recounting of the events, acknowledges that there is little to no evidence to support them, but he’s like, “Eh, I believe you anyway.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And sends them back in time to save Sirius and Buckbeak. Here, the evidence is obviously far more believable, I would say; however, we’re still relying on a dream that Harry had. But Dumbledore deliberately circumvents Umbridge as she’s trying to figure out what’s happening in order to get Harry and the Weasleys away from Hogwarts and her in order to ultimately save Arthur, and also create a cover story for him so that he doesn’t get in trouble for being where he was at the time.

Micah: Nice.

Laura: Then I thought this was really interesting, because I get that Harry is frustrated with Dumbledore here. Dumbledore has a history throughout the series of not being terribly clear with his intentions. So at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, when he’s explaining to Hermione what she needs to do with the Time-Turner and Harry is like, “What are you talking about?” Dumbledore says, “Thirteenth window from the right of the West Tower. If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight.”

Andrew: Oh, I love that.

Laura: Why not just say, “Save Buckbeak and Sirius”?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: What if…? Or here’s an alternate reading: What if he was talking about a different life entirely? What if somebody else…?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: What if one of Sprout’s assistants got attacked by a Venomous Tentacula, and Dumbledore was like, “I meant for you to save them!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “There’s as a world of possibilities. Go out there and see how many people you can save.”

Laura: But then literally after this, he’s just like, “Good luck!” and leaves.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: And Harry seems to be okay with this lack of clarity, as long as he feels like he has an in with Dumbledore.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Laura: So it’s really the fact that he doesn’t have an in with Dumbledore anymore that’s so frustrating to him. And we already talked about the portion earlier in the chapter where he’s like, “But in essence divided?” He’s doing this in front of everybody while they’re all being like, “Yeah, my dad’s bleeding out somewhere. What are you doing, man?”

Andrew: “Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh, but in essence divided? Hmm, mhmm, huh…”

Laura: [laughs] Right. So actually, I would argue that Dumbledore has been doing this for a very long time, and Harry is only frustrated now because Dumbledore won’t acknowledge his existence. And then this was a cool one: So there’s a really interesting parallel, I think, between Snape and Kreacher. So at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape is really beside himself about Dumbledore seemingly taking Harry and Hermione’s side. Dumbledore communicates that he wants to speak to Harry and Hermione alone to hear their recounting of the events; Snape goes off and is like, “Oh, come on, this is completely ridiculous. Sirius Black was showing that he was capable of being a killer when he was in school. Do you not remember when he tried to kill me, Dumbledore?” And Dumbledore still pushes Snape out of the room so that Snape cannot be involved in this conversation. At the end of the book, following the events that allowed Sirius to escape, Snape is so frustrated by how everything played out that he just lets slip that Remus Lupin is a werewolf, and this results in Lupin having to resign his post at Hogwarts, and also creates further employment difficulties for him down the road. So Snape, in this way, has betrayed a Marauder. While Kreacher is, I would argue, more rudely banished from a dramatic interaction of everybody arriving at Grimmauld Place, and he’s probably kind of wanting to be in on the action, Sirius yells at him to get out, and we know now that this is the moment where Kreacher interprets that he’s been banished, right? And this is what opens up the opportunity for him to set into play the sequence of events that directly lead to Sirius’s death. So he also betrays a Marauder.

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: Yeah, very interesting.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to the portraits for this fascinating network of portraits that they can jump between. They saved Arthur Weasley.

Micah: Nice. Going to give it to Sirius, just because I felt like despite everything that was going on, and his treatment of Kreacher aside, in that moment where he needed to come through as a mature adult, he did.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Arthur because even though we haven’t actually seen him in this chapter yet, we do learn that he pulls through. And I’ve just got to give it to him for recognizing that there are some things that are just more important, and that he’s willing to put his life on the line for what’s right.

Eric: And I gave my MVP of the Week to Sirius also, for maintaining a cool head and really, for once, just handling Fred and George’s criticism. First of all for handling them, and then for handling their criticism really responsibly.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: All right, let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “Portraits to the Rescue!”

Micah: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “The Godfather.”

Eric: [laughs] Oh, nice.

Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “Imposter Syndrome.”

Eric: Nice. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 22, “Redhead Rescue Mission.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I don’t know where I came up with… I was failing to come up with a title until I wasn’t.

Andrew: No, I like that.

Laura: I like it too.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in, MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. We would also love your feedback about the second half of this chapter; we might incorporate it into next week’s episode of MuggleCast.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: It’s all St. Mungo’s, baby, this time and next time. But last week’s question was: What is the name of the department storefront which hides St. Mungo’s to the Muggles? The correct answer is Purge and Dowse Ltd., which was awesome. We had eight winners this week, including Becca, ReeseWithoutHerSpoon, Caleb McReynolds, HallowWolf13, Erika, I Miss Sports, Jenny Beez, and CountRavioli.

Andrew: Stay safe, CountRavioli! Thinking of you!

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: And all the other seven people that sent in their answers.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: Of course, of course.

Micah: You know, Eric, I’m wondering: You proposed three Quizzitch questions last week. Is this the reason why you wanted to split the chapter, so that you could use two of the three questions?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Maybe. I don’t know. It all happened so organically, Micah; I can’t really pinpoint any one occurrence. But next week’s question will also have to do with St. Mungo’s chapter, the one we just read part one of: What color robes do the Healers of St. Mungo’s wear? And submit your answer to us over on Twitter at MuggleCast, with hashtag Quizzitch. Happy playing.

Andrew: We would also love if you joined us over on Patreon. Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can support the show. By doing so, you will have access to our livestreams so you can join us as we are recording each episode. If you pledge at the $5 level or higher, you will be eligible for this year’s physical gift, which we hope to announce in the weeks ahead. You will also get access to bonus MuggleCast and so much more, so thank you, everybody, for supporting us. We appreciate it extra right now, because in these uncertain times, we’re also losing a couple of advertisers because they’re uncertain about advertising as well, so we could really use your support in keeping the show funded. And we have so many benefits there; we just really love this community of listeners and patrons. One of our newer benefits has been recording a personalized “Thank you” message to each new person who pledges, and that has been so much fun, and I know everybody’s been liking those as well. So if you do pledge today, you will get a video message from one of the four of us in about a week’s time. And I mentioned bonus MuggleCast coming up today; like I mentioned, over on Patreon we will be discussing the instrument in Dumbledore’s office, and what the hell that was, and J.K. Rowling’s comments on it, so stay tuned for that. Again, that will be available at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you, thank you, thank you to everybody who supports us and everybody who listens, and like I said at the top of the show, we hope you’re all doing well, and we hope that MuggleCast has been a source of comfort for you. And if you’re looking for some extra comfort, do check out that live show that we did. It’s available to everybody; check it out on our social media channels. We think you’ll enjoy it a lot. Like Micah mentioned, we played Heads Up, and that was a lot of fun. [laughs] It’s like the game Password, but with a modern twist.

Micah: And we also shared a bunch of Harry Potter items that all of us have accumulated over the years, and that was fun.

Andrew: Yeah, we did a show and tell.

Micah: Yeah, show and tell. Live show and tell.

Andrew: It was fun. All right, thank you, everybody, so much for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Goodbye.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #457

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #457, The Grim Granger (OOTP 21, The Eye of the Snake)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we’re joined by one of our Slug Club members this week, Abbey. Hi, Abbey. How you doing?

Abbey: Hi, guys. I’m doing great.

Andrew: You also host a podcast. Tell us about it.

Abbey: I do; it’s called “The On-Call Room,” and it’s a Grey’s Anatomy podcast. We’re deep-diving every episode. So we’re currently in… I think we’re just about to start Season 9. So it’s been three years, and it’s taken a long time. There’s a lot of episodes of Grey’s.

Micah: How many seasons are there?

Abbey: Oh my God. I think we’re in the 16th right now, and hopefully there’s only one more. We’re praying for it to end.

Andrew: [laughs] Hopeful? What?!

Micah: That’s not good for business, though.

Abbey: [laughs] It’s true, but it’s getting worse. It’s like if the Harry Potter books just kept getting worse instead of better, you know?

Micah: Oh, like Cursed Child?

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Abbey: Yeah, so it’s really fun, but we really want to have a good close to it sometime. It’ll be, like, five years by the time we’re done.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: You’ve done really well with it, so congrats.

Abbey: Yeah, thank you. So everyone should check it out if they like Grey’s. It’s real fun.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. I mean, speaking as a person who has a podcast in which we’re talking about books from 10/15/20 years ago, I think you’ll come to regret when they run out of new material.

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: Because we’re like, “What do we do?” There’s nothing new.

Abbey: I definitely think about you guys when you talk about how you thought you were done, and then here you are ten years later.

Andrew: Yeah, which we’re obviously thrilled by. We’re having a great time doing this podcast, and it’s great to have listeners on like you. So welcome to the show, and let’s get your fandom ID.

Abbey: All right, so my favorite book is Order of the Phoenix, so this is fitting. My favorite movie is Deathly Hallows – Part 2; I really like a good cry, and that soundtrack is so good. And then I’m a Hufflepuff, my Ilvermorny House is Thunderbird, and my Patronus is a badger.

Andrew: Okay.

Abbey: And then we’re talking father figures, right?

Andrew: Yeah, who is your favorite Harry Potter father figure in the series?

Abbey: I had to think about this one, and I’m going to go with Xenophilius Lovegood, but only if I am Luna, because I feel like he really puts everything on the line and betrays Harry. But if I were Luna, I’d want him as my dad.

Andrew: I see, yeah. Cool, cool.

Laura: Yeah, he does kind of drop the ball.

Abbey: He does. But also, before that he’s a journalist publishing things.

Laura: Yeah, wonderful.

Abbey: So I love that.

Andrew: Yeah, and the reason we asked this question is because we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21 this week, and Arthur is obviously in great danger, but is saved thanks to Harry, so we’ll talk about that today.


News


Andrew: First, some news, and there’s actually a lot of news because, as everybody knows, there is this Coronavirus pandemic sweeping the world, and it has affected the Wizarding World. First of all, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child on Broadway and in San Francisco – and I think one or two other productions around the world – are currently closed because we all are supposed to be practicing social distancing right now, which is no problem for podcasters, at least for our show. [laughs]

Laura: Yep, born for this.

Andrew: Yeah. We’ve been training our whole life for this. Introverts unite!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Also, Universal, both of their theme parks in America have closed; that is where the Wizarding World lands are. This is the first time I think that the Wizarding World parks are closed. Theme parks rarely ever close, so that’s a pretty big deal. I know this is the fourth time in history that Disneyland has closed. And then there’s been some other news because of Coronavirus. It turns out we learned from a reputable gaming site, Kotaku; they revealed that Warner Bros. was planning on officially announcing that Harry Potter RPG that leaked a couple years ago, that one in which you are a latecomer to Hogwarts. And so that was supposed to be announced at E3 this year, but now E3 is canceled, so presumably WB will announce it in another way. But that’s exciting news because this trailer – or sizzle reel, or whatever you want to call it – leaked, and it just looks so amazing. And everybody got so excited about it back in the middle of 2018, and we haven’t heard a peep about it since then, and now it looks like it is real and we are going to be hearing about it in the months head, so that’s cool.

Abbey: And maybe we can all just live inside the RPG game if we’re still in self-quarantine. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. Warner Bros., just release it now. We need something to do at home.

Abbey: Right.

Andrew: I’m sure it’s ready.

Micah: Yeah, release the trailer, at least. Give us something to go on.

Andrew: Yeah, come on.

Micah: But I’m not sure if you saw this, Andrew – I think you did because I saw something on MuggleCast Twitter – but also, Wizards Unite has decided to add more Confoundables to their game, knowing that people are not going to be out and about as much. So if you live in Podunk, USA, there’s a good chance you have a few more of Confoundables showing up around your house.

Andrew: [laughs] This is your chance. You can play without leaving.

Laura: So what you’re saying is I can…

Micah: Laura, yeah, I’m talking to you.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I can sit on my couch. This is wonderful.

Andrew: And some studios have halted production of their major movies, but not Warner Bros.; they’re saying, “Let’s keep rolling.” And when Variety reported that Warner Bros. was going to continue shooting, they revealed that Fantastic Beasts 3 is going to begin filming this Monday. Or by the time you’re listening to the show, they’ve already started. They are supposed to start Monday, March 16. Hopefully, WizardingWorld.com will make some sort of announcement about this news. Maybe a title? Probably too early for a title, but maybe some details about what’s going to be happening in this third installment, so that’s exciting. And once filming gets underway, there tends to be leaks; we get these photos from the set when they’re doing outdoor filming, and we hear about these actors going to set through their social media channels, stuff like that, so hopefully we’ll have some stuff to talk about regarding Fantastic Beasts 3 in the weeks ahead. That said, if Coronavirus continues to spread and the numbers continue to grow rapidly, I would imagine that Warner Bros. will stop filming, but since the movie is not scheduled for release until November 2021, I feel like a delay in shooting won’t actually affect the release date, but we’ll see.

Micah: Now, is this filming that’s taking place down in Brazil, or this is filming that’s taking place at Leavesden?

Andrew: Leavesden, yeah. Apparently where they’re also currently filming The Batman, starring Twilight star Robert Pattinson.

Abbey: A reunion, of sorts.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He’ll hop over and reprise his role as Cedric. [laughs] Yeah, that’s definitely what’s happening. That’s all that’s happening in the Wizarding World. Coronavirus is affecting the world, and that includes what we talk about here on the show, so everybody stay safe, wash your hands, and stay inside if you can. In some better news, Bloomsbury revealed the covers for Quidditch Through the Ages, and I say covers because the US and UK are getting different covers for some reason. This is for the illustrated edition of the book.

Micah: “For some reason.” What do you think that reason is?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, I mean, if you look at these covers, the UK one is much better than the US one. I am not buying this US one.

Abbey: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: The US one is just basic. It’s got the Snitch on it, and it’s got three players, and then… but the UK one, it’s got, like, a million things on the cover. It’s just whimsical and fun. Why do you like this one more, Abbey?

Abbey: I like the illustrations of the Quaffle and everything on the bottom there too. I don’t know, and it just… yeah, like you said, it’s just really whimsical. It looks like they put way more time into it.

Andrew: [laughs] Scholastic was like, “Okay, we have four things on it. That’s enough.” Bloomsbury was like, “We’re going to have 400 things on it!” And then we saw some scans from inside the book, and this just looks phenomenal. I mean, we see the history of Quidditch, we see this sketch of Quidditch in the 15th century, and then we see all these different types of Quidditch players from over the years, and some postcards, and yeah, just all kinds of things. This book looks really great.

Micah: I really love the ticket stub from Quidditch World Cup 1974.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Madagascar versus Syria. That’s really cool stuff. She often talked about how she really didn’t like to write Quidditch in the books, but this looks really, really cool. And I honestly don’t even remember reading or sitting down and going through Quidditch Through the Ages much, but with this illustrated edition, I definitely think I’m going to do that.

Andrew: I’m feeling the same way.

Abbey: I also love the illustration of Catriona McCormack with the Pride team, “The Prides,” and then how it says in the small print that “her love of ‘The Prides,’ and how to wear purple with flair.” I’m loving that.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, it looks really great. They’ve obviously done an incredible job with the illustrated editions. This is the last of the little spinoff books to get an illustrated edition; Fantastic Beasts and The Tales of Beedle the Bard are already out, and we’ve reviewed them in years past. So Quidditch Through the Ages illustrated edition arrives later this year. Also arriving this year is MinaLima’s Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone illustrated edition, so there’s going to be two illustrated editions for us to enjoy this year.

Micah: And we hope to have MinaLima on the show prior to that release. We’re working on it.

Laura: So which of these editions do you guys think you’re going to get?

Micah: Both.

Andrew: Definitely the UK one.

Laura: Same.

Andrew: US one can go to hell. [laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Laura: The US one, I feel like they were just like, “We need something that is super reminiscent of Harry Potter,” so they just grabbed the Snitch. They were like, “This is really recognizable. Make that big, and then that’ll do.”

Andrew: Yeah. Somebody needs to send me that UK one, or… I don’t know, I don’t want to travel over there right now.

Laura: I mean, Amazon probably?

Andrew: Can I…? Will Bezos let me do that?

Micah: Of course he will.

Andrew: Okay, great.

Laura: Yeah, he likes money.

Andrew: And Laura, you’ll take the UK one too?

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Okay, great. If Eric was here, I’m sure he would say the US one, because he just likes to be different.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Of course he does.

Andrew: [laughs] By the way, this illustrated edition is by Emily Gravett, who has not illustrated one of these Harry Potter books before. I like that they’re getting new illustrators for these books to bring some different perspectives to the series.

Micah: But how did she go about illustrating these two different covers, though? What direction was she given?

Andrew: Oh, that’s a good point.

Micah: Because if we’re all saying we really, really enjoy the cover that is done for the UK, and don’t like the US one…

Andrew: I didn’t think about that. I didn’t even realize she probably did both of these. She was probably like, “Wait, you need two covers? Why?”

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: “It’s the same book!”

Micah: Hopefully she got paid for both of them.

Andrew: In fairness, Fantastic Beasts has different covers in the US and UK, but the core Harry Potter books do not, the illustrated editions.

Abbey: Also, isn’t the original Quidditch Through the Ages that we all got when we were younger…? Isn’t that the same color green that this one is? Are they trying to match that?

Andrew: Ohhh, thank you.

Abbey: I just thought of that.

Andrew: That’s it. That’s right. Good catch. And yeah, the illustrated edition of Fantastic Beasts is red in the US.

Abbey: Is red, okay.

Andrew: Yep. We cracked it. Cover still sucks, but we cracked it.

Abbey: Yep.

Micah: Do we know is there any additional information that’s in Quidditch Through the Ages illustrated edition versus what was in the original?

Andrew: No, I think it’s the same. But because of all these illustrations, we’re seeing a lot more. We’re getting a lot more detail, like this magazine cover and a photo of Quidditch in 1473.

Micah: Because I’m just thinking a couple of episodes ago, we were talking about McGonagall and her backstory, the fact that her mother was this great Quidditch player; she ended up playing at Hogwarts, but then injured herself and wasn’t able to play professionally. Could be cool info to include in Quidditch Through the Ages.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, we’re about to get to Chapter by Chapter, but first, this week’s episode is sponsored by Quip.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, [whispers] “The Eye of the Snake.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And we’ll start with our seven-word summary. And Abbey, you will go first.

Abbey: Gosh. Okay, um… Harry…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: … heads…

Micah: … toward…

Laura: What?

Abbey: Yeah, I couldn’t hear that either. [laughs]

Micah: Toward. Towards. Sorry.

Abbey: Oh, okay.

Laura: Oh, Jesus.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: … Arthur…

Abbey: … in…

Andrew: … peril…

Micah: Harry heads towards Arthur in peril… snakily?

[Everyone laughs]

Abbey: That is good.

Andrew: Good job. [laughs]

Abbey: Saved it.

Micah: I saved it, yeah.

[Abbey laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I would have just been lazy and said “today.”

Micah: I was just thinking of throwing out random words like “Nagini.”

[Everyone laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: Wanted to start out this chapter connecting some threads, because I just thought it was too much; there was too much happening at the start of this chapter to not do that. And I’ll defer to Laura on some of these, but I just thought the first part of this chapter overall was very reminiscent of Prisoner of Azkaban when Hagrid takes the students to meet Buckbeak. Number one, they’re getting very important lessons on winged creatures, Hippogriffs and Thestrals, and both end up being used in an escape plan at the end of the book. The Thestrals are used to get to the Ministry; Buckbeak is used to free Sirius. So J.K. Rowling is definitely using things from Book 3 here in Book 5, right?

Laura: Oh, yeah. I mean, even down to the setup for the lesson, if you reread… gosh, I think it was Chapter 7 of Prisoner of Azkaban, “Talons and Tea Leaves.” When they’re going for their Care of Magical Creatures lesson, they notice that it looks like Hagrid is leading them into the forest, and Harry is like, “Oh God, I hope he’s not taking us in there.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And he doesn’t, but then in Order of the Phoenix, he definitely does.

Micah: And Laura, you mentioned this on a previous episode, but Hermione at the start of this chapter is spending her free time trying to help Hagrid prepare for his lessons, and this is very similar to her helping Hagrid plan Buckbeak’s defense in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Laura: Yeah. Whereas in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid is happy to accept her help, and then here in Order of the Phoenix, he’s very resistant.

Andrew: “I got this, girl.” Good on Hermione for wanting to help Hagrid, but poor Hagrid gets no help from anybody else except for a student, and that student just finds Hagrid helpless.

Micah: So you think somebody else should have tried to help him out? Give him warning about Umbridge?

Andrew: Maybe, maybe. Does he have anybody who can come to his aid when he needs it? Or does he have any close friends who can help him out from time to time? It just seems like he’s hopeless.

Laura: Yeah. [coughs] Dumbledore.

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Abbey: It is weird, too, that the only interactions… you don’t see any of him with teachers besides Umbridge in this chapter. Even when he’s at the table for the first time, Fred, George, and Lee are the ones that go and greet him; they talk about that. So it’s just weird that there’s no other teacher interactions.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. I mean, they should have each other’s backs. [laughs] Instead a student is helping him. Just bums me out.

Micah: True, especially the way that Hagrid is about to be treated by Umbridge later on in this chapter. You would hope that somebody is there to stick up for him, to step in and make a difference.

Andrew: I wanted to bring that up as well. Shouldn’t somebody have warned him? But we can talk about that later.

Micah: One other thing that I just want to call out at the start of the chapter is Malfoy, and he’s really a little whiny [censored] about going into the forest. And I understand he hasn’t had the best experiences there, going all the way back to Sorcerer’s Stone, but I truly hope that he’s having Buckbeak flashbacks, just given how he treats Hagrid later on in this chapter.

Andrew: He probably is. Yeah, I think so.

Abbey: I think it’d be worse if he could see the Thestrals. He can’t even see them, so his flashbacks must be real real in that moment.

Andrew: Yeah, this is like a nightmare to him, because he doesn’t know what’s lurking around the corner. But this is that one little thing about Malfoy that we feel good about, right? Because he actually does have some cracks. He’s not as tough as he tries to act like he is.

Micah: Absolutely. And I think that ties into Abbey’s point, because Hagrid also should be thinking through his lessons – and this goes to Hermione trying to prep him appropriately – because he’s about to introduce these creatures that, let’s say, 90% of the class – probably more than that – can’t even see, and I’m not sure that’s the best lesson for these students, the first lesson back for Hagrid. And it’s a very ominous sort of situation for these students, who are already on edge because Professor Grubbly-Plank is not there and Hagrid is back, and they know that he has a track record where he introduced some creatures that are dangerous.

Laura: Do we think that it mattered, though, what Hagrid was covering? I feel like he was set up for failure no matter what. The Slytherins were more than prepared to throw him under the bus; Umbridge was prepared to show up and make him look like a fool no matter what, so I’m not sure it would have really mattered.

Micah: That’s a fair point. So even if they were cute little Nifflers, you think they would have found a way to make Hagrid look bad.

Laura: I think so.

Abbey: I agree.

Andrew: Well, and then, yeah, Umbridge is just making fun of the way he talks and interprets and listens, so yeah, he was about to get bullied no matter what.

Micah: One thing he does say, though, that I just didn’t like – and I didn’t think was very teacher-like to say to a student – it’s directed at Malfoy, and he says, “If yeh’ve finished askin’ stupid questions, follow me.”

Andrew: Right. What did we always hear growing up? “There are no stupid questions.”

Laura: And then you get to university, and you find out that that’s not true.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Right, they tell you that to try to make you feel better and encourage you to participate in class.

Abbey: I also think as a reader, too, you don’t know what Hagrid is hiding yet, and so once you do, you understand the stress that he’s under. But at this point you don’t know that, and so you’re just wondering why he’s being so out of character.

Micah: He’s very proud of it, though, the fact that he’s been able to corral these Thestrals and domesticate them, essentially. And the introduction is definitely a little bit odd for us as readers, too, because to your point, we don’t know what they are yet, and only two other students aside from Harry can see them; one is a Slytherin boy, and the other is Neville. And again, this goes to the point about should Hagrid be introducing these creatures to these fifth year students, especially those who have experienced death? Because this may be a traumatic flashback for some of these young kids once they understand why it is that they can see them.

Laura: And it does put them on the spot, too, because now it’s like, “Hey, these three people have seen somebody die,” and then could possibly prompt their peers to start asking them questions. Obviously, everybody knows why Harry can see them, but as for Neville and this Slytherin student, not so much. So I agree, it does put a burden on the students for sure.

Andrew: Yeah, and that isn’t addressed at all, but I think those students are absolutely burdened, and that would probably haunt them for weeks, at least, reliving this death.

Laura: Do you know why that is, Andrew?

Andrew: Because Hogwarts is an emotional nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens, with Andrew saying the word “emotional” over “security”]

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It even, though, prompts Hermione a little bit later on in the chapter, after the lesson is done, to say in front of Harry that she wishes that she could see Thestrals. It’s a little bit of a tone-deaf statement to make.

Andrew: [laughs] But you know… and she apologizes; she’s like, “Oh, I didn’t mean it.” But you know deep down, she still wants to see the Thestrals. And I’m wondering who would she kill so she could see a Thestral?

[Abbey laughs]

Andrew: Because she’s definitely thinking about killing somebody. Now, who should it be?

[Laura laughs]

Abbey: I feel like Umbridge, the way she shakes with fury.

Andrew: Yeah, because she’s awful towards Hagrid.

Abbey: I also relate to Hermione, because sometimes… there’s people who process verbally and who process internally, and I feel like Hermione is someone that processes things out loud, without thinking, and this was totally one of those instances where she just means educationally she wishes she could see them and is not even thinking about it.

Laura: And who among us has not been in this position before, of having something just come tumbling out of your mouth and then realizing, once it’s out in the world, how horrible it sounded?

Abbey: [laughs] Right.

Laura: And then you’re like, “No, no, that’s not what I meant! I’m sorry!”

[Abbey laughs]

Andrew: Yep. I’m trying to look it up now; is it only if you’ve witnessed a human death, or could it be an animal death as well? Because then maybe Hermione could go and kill a chipmunk or something.

Abbey: Why does she have to be the murderer? [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, can’t she just show up at somebody’s deathbed and just be there?

Micah: All right, well, I’m super glad where this conversation has gone.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I just think Hermione, she always… she wants to know and see everything, so now she’s thinking about, “How do I see somebody die so I can complete my encyclopedia of a brain?”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: There are books that I’m sure show Thestrals that she could look at.

Andrew: That’s true.

Micah: People who have seen them probably have drawn them. And Newt; she could pick up a copy of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and see a Thestral.

Andrew: Okay, cool.

Abbey: Do you think if you photograph one, they’ll show up if you’ve seen death?

Andrew and Micah: Hmm.

Micah: That’s interesting.

Andrew: Well, since photos are magical in the wizarding world, I would think they would be dynamic in that, no, you still would not be able to see Thestrals, in my opinion.

Abbey: Okay, gotcha.

Andrew: That’s why Hermione needs to kill somebody.

Micah: We do learn a bit more about Thestrals. Hagrid lets us know that they do have an amazing sense of direction, and that’s important for later on in this book. We also learn that, in addition to carrying the students up to Hogwarts in those horse-drawn carriages, that Dumbledore occasionally takes them to a meeting that he can’t Apparate to, so I was wondering, where is Dumbledore riding a Thestral to and why have we not seen this photo before?

Andrew: Yeah. Where’s the fan art?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It probably does exist somewhere.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s almost like us wanting to ride Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure, now closed at Universal Orlando. Dumbledore enjoys taking a ride from time to time, something more thrilling than Apparating somewhere.

Abbey: Feels the breeze in his hair?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, his hair blowing in the wind.

Laura: Do you think this is what he was riding in Sorcerer’s Stone when he was on his way to the Ministry and he passed Hermione’s owl midair?

Abbey and Andrew: Maybe.

Andrew: I’m on Google image search and I don’t see a single photo…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: … so somebody get on that; you can be the first.

Micah: It’s one of those really small notes that I didn’t even remember that this was mentioned by Hagrid when talking about Thestrals, that Dumbledore had actually used them as a means of transportation from time to time.

Andrew: Micah, I don’t understand why this is, but in my Google image search for Dumbledore riding a Thestral, I see the photo of you and Eric riding Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I don’t get it. [laughs] And the MuggleCast album art. There’s clearly not much for Google to show for this search phrase.

Micah: Now, you had a couple points here, Andrew.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: I know we touched a little bit on the fact that it wasn’t wise to put students who have seen death in this situation, but does this lend to Hagrid’s ability or capability in terms of teaching students?

Andrew: Exactly. He’s not thinking this through. I do wonder if Hagrid filled in Hermione about his lesson, if Hermione would have said, “Do you think that’s the best idea, making some students relive the death of probably a loved one? And think about what you’re about to put Harry through. And then also think about how Umbridge is going to react to you bringing Thestrals in front of students.” So yeah, this is just another case of Hagrid not being the brightest bulb in the box, and I just feel bad for those kids.

Laura: I mean, I will say Hermione does note later in the chapter that they would have had to learn about these creatures anyway, but that they were more NEWT level creatures, so she felt that he introduced them a bit early, but they still would have had to have this experience. It is in the curriculum, so he wasn’t necessarily out of bounds there; he just introduced them a bit early.

Andrew: And maybe he could have warned the students. Instead of springing these beasts on them, say, “Hey, I’m about to introduce you to a creature who, if you’ve seen death, you’ll be able to see the Thestrals.” Just give them a warning.

Laura: Yeah, but also bearing in mind when these books were written… the story takes place in the ’90s; trigger warnings were not a thing.

Andrew: True.

Laura: So just have to remember when we’re reading it through the 2020 lens, things were different.

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: Hogwarts probably still does not have trigger warnings.

Laura: Probably not.

Andrew: They just throw it all out there. Make the kids deal with it. Emotional security nightmare.

Micah: And not just for the students who have experienced death in their lives, but for those who haven’t, Hagrid is going into the forest, I think they said, with half a deer or something slung over his shoulder, and he’s feeding this raw meat to something these kids can’t even see. It’s like the flesh is being ripped from the bone, and that’s kind of creepy to have to watch when you can’t even see what’s going on.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s terrifying. Yeah, great for Halloween, but not a class. And yeah, I mean, I brought this up earlier, but it is a bummer that no member of faculty is prepping Hagrid for Umbridge’s arrival, because they’ve already been through it, and nobody’s warning him, “Hey, Umbridge is going to come down here and be really critical of what you’re doing, no matter what it is, and she’s going to interrupt you, and the Slytherin students are going to love what she does. Just be ready.” And nobody warns him.

Laura: Well, the trio tried to warn him, and we also don’t know what his conversations with his fellow faculty members looked like. I can see him very much dismissing them in the same way that he’s dismissed the trio, as well as Hermione on her own when they’ve been trying to tell him, “No, Hagrid, this is actually really serious,” and he’s just like, “Nah, it’ll be okay. I’ve got really interesting lesson plans coming up; you’ll see.” So I could see his peers trying to warn him about this, and him being like, “No. What problem could she have with Thestrals? They’re so interesting.”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, I guess. We just don’t have any proof that a member of faculty actually warned him, and given how the school is run, it would not surprise me if nobody warned him.

Micah: To Laura’s point, though, you would think he would have at least had a conversation with Professor Grubbly-Plank. But let’s get to his evaluation. It goes about as bad as it possibly could. And this is something, again, rereading the book as an adult, that you pick up on some things in addition to Umbridge just being extremely crude. She treats him like he is mentally challenged.

Abbey: It’s so hard to read.

Micah: It really is. But that said, I thought we could go through some of the things that she writes down and some of the things that she says to Hagrid. She mentions that he “has to resort to crude sign language,” “appears to have poor short term memory,” “shows signs of pleasure at the idea of violence,” and – again, this is a quote from the book – she says, “I am going to walk,” she mimes walking, “‘among the students’ – she pointed around at individual members of the class – ‘and ask them questions.’ She pointed at her mouth to indicate talking.” That’s just… can’t even imagine something like that going on in a classroom in today’s society, although I’m sure there’s probably examples of it. But if the truth came out that an evaluator did that to a teacher, I’m sure that evaluator would be fired immediately.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Abbey: It reminds me of that horrible thing when you see someone talking louder and slower to someone who doesn’t speak English, like that would help. It’s just horrible to… yeah, it’s not great.

Micah: Yeah. And unfortunately, there are… she’s really playing to a base here in the Slytherin students – Pansy, Draco, and others – and that’s just… to me, that makes it even worse, right? She’s essentially just trying to make as much light of this situation as she possibly can, and the fact that she needs kids who are 15 and 16 years old to validate what she’s doing makes it even worse.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s awful. Grow the hell up.

Micah: And you can tell Hagrid is starting to… more so with the students, less so with Umbridge, because with Umbridge he’s just looking at her like she’s crazy and can’t understand why she’s doing what she’s doing. But when Pansy even says that Hagrid grunts and it makes it difficult to understand, Hagrid gets offended by that. He starts to get a little bit uncomfortable.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And Hagrid is proving he’s not as stupid as Umbridge is making him out to be, because he is responding to the things that Umbridge is saying, at least a few of them, being like, “No, these aren’t dangerous. Everything’s fine.”

Micah: Yeah, I’m assuming in his mind he’s wondering if she’s slightly off because of what she’s doing and how she’s acting towards him.

Abbey: Right.

Laura: Yep, that’s how it comes across for sure.

Andrew: Well, he’s right; she is off. But this was also making me wonder, should the trio have gone to McGonagall or someone else about this? Because we’re sitting here talking about how horrible this is; I think this is something that should have been brought up to the faculty. I mean, this is abuse in real time from one teacher to another.

Micah: But isn’t that what she’s all about, though? This is definitely… we love Hagrid, though. Think about Trelawney’s situation; we all felt bad for her, but at the end of the day, were we really as up in arms about what she did to somebody like Trelawney versus now what she’s doing to Hagrid?

Andrew: Right.

Abbey: I was going to say, I just think it really speaks to Hermione’s character, too, the way that she is so… she gets so physically upset about it; like “tears of fury,” they say, and it says, “shaking with fury again.” She tried so hard to help him and just cares so much for him. I just hate that she feels that way, but I love that moment because it really shows how much she cares.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely. When they just have that sentence or two about as she’s leaving… or as the lesson is ending, Hermione is physically shaking; Neville is kind of dumbfounded. And speaking of Neville, she completely manipulates his words to her own personal satisfaction. She says that students are too intimidated to admit that they’re frightened, and that’s not what’s happening with Neville. Neville is probably going through a bit of… was it his grandfather who he saw pass away? So he’s dealing with that, but he also probably doesn’t want to say the wrong thing here and get Hagrid in trouble.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I think that’s exactly it.

Micah: All right. Well, to wrap up this beautiful evaluation that Umbridge does, she says to Hagrid, “speaking once more in that loud, slow voice, ‘I think I’ve got enough to be getting along with… You will receive’ – she mimed taking something from the air in front of her – ‘the results of your inspection’ – she pointed at the clipboard – ‘in ten days time.’ She held up ten stubby little fingers, then, her smile wider and more toad-like than ever before beneath her green hat, she bustled from their midst, leaving Malfoy and Pansy in fits of laughter, Hermione shaking with fury, and Neville looking confused and upset.”

Andrew: I know who I’m going to kill now so I can see a Thestral.

[Abbey laughs]

Micah: Yeah, so that… I mean, there’s so much that goes on in this chapter, and it starts off with this evaluation, which I think we all knew was coming. We were all kind of hopeful at the beginning of the lesson because it didn’t seem like she was present, and then we learn that she had left a note in Hagrid’s hut or at Hagrid’s door that she was going to be stopping by. Hagrid thinks nothing of it. But given how everything goes, we can safely assume that he’s definitely on her shortlist to be fired or told to take some more time for his health.

Andrew: Yeah. “Go get some more sun.”

Micah: So the chapter shifts; December arrives with lots of homework and prefect duties. And as the holidays are approaching, Harry is actually feeling resentment towards Hogwarts, and this is the first time that he can remember that he’s actually looking to getting away from the castle. And I thought that was kind of interesting, because Hogwarts has always been a place where he’s enjoyed.

Andrew: Yeah, J.K. Rowling always writes that Harry cannot wait to get back to school – get out of the Dursleys’ home, get back to see his friends – and for the first time, he needs a break. And even this stuff aside, I mean, it’s understandable because he’s in his fifth year now. Hogwarts, he still loves it to death, of course, but it’s also nice to get a little break. I’m glad that he wants to get out of the school, to be honest.

Laura: Well, and he’s not exactly had the greatest term.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: He’s been physically abused in his detentions; he’s been removed from the Quidditch team; half the student population thinks he’s insane, so it’s been a rough few months.

Micah: And even Ron doesn’t flat-out tell him at the start that he’s going to be able to go to the Burrow. He thinks… I don’t know, honestly, what he thought. Do you think maybe he would go to Grimmauld Place, or he would go back to the Dursleys’? He didn’t seem like he had much of a place to go.

Andrew: Seems like an important thing to tell Harry as soon as his mother invited Harry to the Burrow.

Abbey: [laughs] It’s such a Ron thing to do, though, to forget to say that.

Andrew: “I forgot. I’m sorry, man. Too busy thinking about girls.”

[Abbey and Micah laugh]

Micah: So they’re headed to the Burrow. Hermione is going to be going skiing. Very Muggle thing to do.

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: “Ooh, I hope I see somebody fall off the cliff; then I can see Thestrals.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Laura: Andrew, why are you turning Hermione into a psychopath?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Because nobody realizes she is.

Micah: It’s going to be the next spinoff series. Andrew is going to write it.

Andrew: [laughs] We’re going to get Harry Potter from Hermione’s perspective, and we’re going to see just how serious she was about wanting to kill somebody so she could see Thestrals. I’m sorry I’m bringing this up so much, but I genuinely believe it.

Micah: Pitch it to Netflix.

Andrew: Got it.

Micah: So before they all head home for the holidays, there’s one final meeting of Dumbledore’s Army, and what I liked about this is that it really did contrast the teaching styles of Harry and Hagrid, unfortunately.

[Andrew laughs]

Abbey: It did.

Andrew: Someone’s good at it.

Micah: Yeah, someone is good at what they’re doing; someone is just a little over-eager. And I think Hagrid is a good teacher in his own way, but Harry definitely approaches things right, because you look at the fact that they’re not even jumping to the more advanced spells and things like that until after the holidays. They’re still working on the basics. But a couple things I just wanted to note about the meeting itself: Decorator Dobby.

Andrew: Yeah, that was cute.

Abbey: It’s the best.

Micah: He’s my MVP of the Week. That was such a cool moment. And it must have been for Harry a really just feel-good moment, given everything that’s been going on – despite the fact that he goes and takes them down – to see all those Christmas baubles with his face on it.

Andrew: I wish he kept those up and all the other kids could have seen what Dobby did. [laughs] I mean, the kids would have thought Harry was an egotistical maniac, but it was the elf. It wasn’t him genuinely.

Abbey: “Have a Very Harry Christmas” just got me. They should make those ornaments and sell them at the Wizarding World.

Andrew: They should! Yeah, that’s perfect.

Laura: They really should. [laughs]

Andrew: Or Harry should have asked Dobby to change them all to Dumbledore’s face and just kept “Have a Very Harry Christmas.” I mean, Dumbledore’s Army, so it makes sense to have Dumbledore’s face everywhere. [laughs]

Micah: We also learn that Ginny has replaced Harry on the Quidditch team. The start of her Quidditch career.

Andrew: Yeah, a big deal. And I want to talk more about that, but in a minute, because it relates to the kiss.

Micah: Dumbledore’s Army is getting stronger; that’s evidenced just by the lesson that we see in this chapter, and Harry even talks about doing the Patronus Charm after the holidays, so clearly, things are working well. And then this leads to the moment at the very end, when everybody else has exited the Room of Requirement: Harry and Cho under the mistletoe.

[Andrew sings “Let’s Get it On” by Marvin Gaye]

[Abbey and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, big moment. I mean, this is Harry’s first kiss. This is a massive deal. And I don’t even think J.K. Rowling notes, like, “It is the first kiss,” but it is, right?

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: And that’s a big moment in a kid’s life. I think most of us remember where we were when we had our first kiss because there’s so much anticipation, and then it happens and you’re like, [slurring speech] “Whoa, that was amazing.” [laughs]

Abbey: Although I feel like first kisses are in general so awkward, and I was really glad that his was written in this way too. I would have been so disappointed if he’d had some perfect romantic moment. It’s so realistic how horrible it was.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I was cringing rereading this.

Abbey: Same. [laughs]

Laura: I was like, “Oh, this is so bad.” And then later on in the chapter when Hermione is like, “Well, you were nice to her, right?” And Harry, he’s like, “Uhh, I kind of patted her on the back.” So I just imagine Harry standing there stiff, not moving, arms down flat at his sides, and Cho is hanging all over him.

[Abbey and Laura laugh]

Abbey: It is the best… I feel like any time that there’s teenage moments where they really feel like regular kids, I love it so much. And the movie did such a good job of this scene, and also the book. It’s just one of my favorite passages to read.

Micah: It is definitely interesting that it’s almost like a cut scene, and you get the details when Harry is talking with Ron and Hermione as opposed to reading them yourself, right?

Abbey: Yes.

Andrew: Yeah, I thought that was clever.

Micah: And yes, it was done very well in the movie; when Dan Radcliffe walks in, he’s just got that completely befuddled look upon his face and not sure what just happened.

Abbey: And in the book it says he wanted to take the secret with him to the grave, and I thought that was so funny. He didn’t know if he wanted to tell anyone or just keep it alone forever.

Andrew: Yeah. Ron is such a bro when he squeezes it out of Harry.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I had wrote down he’s every teenager’s best friend’s reaction in this moment.

Andrew: And really remarkable how J.K. Rowling can capture that. [laughs]

Micah: But Hermione does bring it back to reality.

Andrew: In what way?

Abbey: In such a female way.

Andrew: In what way? Being like…?

Micah: Well, she gets more down into the details and really making Harry overly conscious about what just happened, as opposed to just celebrating the moment.

Andrew: Uh-huh, yeah.

Abbey: I think it’s perfect, though, because Ron is just like, “Fist bump! Yeah, a kiss!” And then Hermione is like, “Well, this is what’s going on in her brain, and she’s feeling all these things.” And I just felt like that’s exactly how girls would talk about it when… and I’m generalizing here, but I would with my girlfriends, I would guess. And I just love the contrast between Ron and Hermione.

Andrew: Yeah. We have a clip from when Harry walked in and told Ron and Hermione what happened.

[“I Kissed a Girl” by Katy Perry plays]

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: This is in the movie. [to the tune of the song] “At the end of the army meeting.”

Abbey: [laughs] Oh my God.

Andrew: This whole area of the chapter was interesting because we’re actually seeing future relationships in the middle of these current relationships. So as Harry has his first kiss and Hermione writes a letter to Krum, [laughs] Ginny is taking Harry’s place on the Quidditch team and Hermione says that she has had the misfortune of meeting Ron. It’s like these little hints that these two couples could never be together – somebody replacing Harry on the Quidditch team, and Hermione basically saying that Ron is an awful person and she regrets meeting him…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Both of these couples will be together in the future.

Micah: Yeah, doesn’t Ron say something, too, about Hermione that alludes to his interest in her as him and Harry are walking up to the dorm?

Laura: Yeah, he’s asking Harry what Hermione sees in Krum, and Harry was like, “Well, he’s older and he’s an international Quidditch star,” and Ron was like, “Well, yeah, but apart from all that.”

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Micah: Yeah, those small details.

Andrew: “But I’ve got the Burrow.”

Micah: Back at the Burrow. But also important that Hermione is writing to Krum for future books, because I believe… doesn’t he show up at the Battle of Hogwarts?

Laura: He’s definitely at Bill and Fleur’s wedding in Deathly Hallows.

Micah: And then just one final thing I found funny as Harry is getting ready for bed before he jumps inside of Nagini’s brain: He says that it would be much more beneficial for How Girls’ Brains Work 101 to be taught at Hogwarts as opposed to Divination. I just found that funny.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Laura: You mean emotional intelligence? Yes. [laughs]

Micah: Exactly. That’s what I meant to say. What did I say?

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: No, I was talking about… I was talking to Harry, not you.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, we’ve spoken about this from time to time; there should have been therapy at Hogwarts. Where are the guidance counselors, even, at Hogwarts? [laughs]

Micah: I was just going to say, do we think they exist?

Andrew: Not that Harry should go to a guidance counselor and be like, “What is Cho thinking about me?” [laughs] But yeah, they don’t really get any assistance in just living life.

Abbey: Yeah, he had the worst year of his life and then just never talked about it, and now he’s back at school. It’s wild how not in touch with his emotions he is.

Andrew: Yeah, and it is quite an interesting situation because Cho is still crying over Cedric. Harry wants this to be a joyous moment, but he sees that Cho can’t get past Cedric. It’s tough. If I was in Harry’s position, I wouldn’t know what to do. I would definitely need to seek some outside help, and I would want to talk to Ron and Hermione about it more, because this is a very delicate situation. You don’t want to upset Cho more, but you do want to continue flirting with her and potentially getting into a relationship.

Abbey: He also says that he wishes Sirius would have been there to give him advice, and I just think Sirius would not be the person to give best advice on this. Ask Molly Weasley. Ask Hermione.

Laura: I think Sirius’s reaction would have been a lot like Ron’s.

Micah: Ron’s, yeah.

Abbey: Agreed.

Andrew: “Yo, man, gimme five! Nice!” But it also speaks to the close relationship between Harry and Sirius, because I, for one, would not go to a parent after having my first kiss. You just keep that amongst friends, not your elders. But that’s the type of relationship Harry and Sirius have, so good for them, and it just makes Sirius’s death all that much harder at the end of the book. So Harry’s dream!

Micah: So as if enough hasn’t happened in this chapter already, Harry finally is able to go to bed, and he starts having these really weird dreams. Little snippets of different things are happening, and one of them is that Hermione says to Harry that he should give Cho his Firebolt.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I was like, “Wait, what?” Given everything that just happened, J.K. Rowling writes this into Harry’s dream? What does that mean? Where are we going, Jo? Getting a little dirty on us?

Andrew: Well, she’s made some adult references before, and this might be another one of those.

[Abbey laughs]

Micah: I think it is.

Andrew: A 7-year-old is going to have to ask J.K. Rowling what that means, like the kid did about the goat.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Right. So right after this quote about giving Cho his Firebolt, he jumps inside of a snake…

Andrew: Another phallic figure!

[Abbey and Laura laugh]

Laura: How much of this do we think was very subconsciously Freudian for J.K. Rowling as the writer?

Andrew: Well, I guess it does… so if you’re dreaming, things can morph into each other, so I could see a Firebolt morphing into a snake.

Laura: Oh, sure.

Micah: There is some initial hesitation on Nagini’s part, and what’s interesting about it is we can actually hear what she’s thinking, or at least get a sense of the fact that she’s on a mission. And I was wondering, though, given the fact that she’s not planning to attack Arthur initially, do we think that has anything to do with her humanity, just knowing what we do about her now versus what we knew about her when we were reading Order of the Phoenix?

Andrew: That is a really interesting observation. And this is why I love things like the Fantastic Beasts series, because it’s opening this world up and giving us these new perspectives. I think in this case, yes, maybe a little bit. On the other hand, she did know that she was after the prophecy, so I think that was the main hesitation. Because I think J.K. Rowling writes that Nagini knew she had other business to attend to. But still, yeah, I think you have to read scenes like this differently now that we know more about Nagini, thanks to Fantastic Beasts.

Micah: Yeah, definitely read between the lines a little bit.

Andrew: Of course, there was this line in the scene where Nagini says she’s still thinking about Credence, and now we know who the hell that is too.

[Abbey and Laura laugh]

Andrew: So it really opens it up.

Micah: I must have missed that. That was in there?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s there.

Laura: Yeah, remember, we had a whole episode being like, “Who the hell is Credence?”

Andrew: Yeah, back in, like, 2005. We’re still wondering.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: And is this the first time, though, that we’ve seen these Horcruxes connect with each other? Because it seems like Harry is able to get into the mind of Nagini, and I’m wondering, if that’s the case, would he have been able to control the outcome? Or is it more just like you’re watching television through Nagini’s eyes? You can see what’s happening, but you can’t do anything about it.

Andrew: I am of the impression that he has no control over Nagini; he’s just got a little view.

Micah: We obviously know what happens next. Arthur, clearly doing a great job on guard duty, is asleep.

[Abbey and Andrew laugh]

Micah: The guy probably worked a full shift at the Ministry earlier in the day, and we know the Order is stretched. But he’s standing guard and wakes up…

Andrew: Sleeping guard.

Micah: … and Nagini has no choice but to attack. And what I found so really disgusting about the description is just Harry can actually feel what is happening.

Abbey and Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: There’s such a strong connection between these Horcruxes that he literally can feel the bones crushing underneath and the blood and all that stuff. It’s pretty nasty.

Laura: Yeah, and we’ll see in the next chapter how conflicted this makes Harry feel, because he kind of feels like, “I understood Nagini’s feelings at that point, so I understood what it felt like to want to hurt Arthur.”

Micah: Yeah, that’s why I was wondering, could he have done anything about it? Because he’s able to feel all of this… it’s just a very odd connection.

Abbey: I feel like he hasn’t done his due diligence in learning…

Andrew: Exactly.

Abbey: Or is this before his lessons with Snape start?

Andrew: Before.

Laura: This is before.

Abbey: Okay, so I was going to say maybe afterwards, or he’d be able to at least leave the scene. But I feel like it’s only Voldemort that is able to get in Harry’s mind and control things.

Andrew: I agree with that. If it’s possible, Harry does not know how to do it yet, because this is so new to him. And of course, he’s living this incredibly terrifying experience. How would you know how to take control of the situation? He didn’t know this was coming; he was just in bed trying to get some rest after his first kiss. Poor guy. What a day.

Micah: Yeah, what a what a day.

Andrew: Big highs, big lows.

Micah: But luckily, Neville does the right thing and goes and gets McGonagall, who happens to be a member of the Order; she probably knows that Arthur is on guard duty. And they make the decision that it’s time, finally, for Harry to come face to face with Dumbledore.

Andrew: And another key moment here is McGonagall saying, “I believe you,” because Harry has not been believed by so many people. He’s had to put up these fights trying to prove himself, and for him to have this terrifying experience, and then he doesn’t have to plead with McGonagall; she just says, “I believe you. Let’s go.”

Abbey: I don’t know if you guys felt this, but even as a reader you feel relief that it’s McGonagall that comes in, and not any other teacher.

Andrew: Yes.

Abbey: And so I love how you feel that, and I’m sure he felt the same way.

Andrew: Yeah. And you know how certain feelings stick with you reading this book for the first time? That was one of them for me, just knowing that McGonagall believed him.

Abbey: Same.

Andrew: And that he was finally going to see Dumbledore again. On a reread, you kind of forget because you know that Dumbledore and Harry end up working together again in later books; you forget just how terrible this was reading this book for the first time because you’re so used to Dumbledore being more present, and then Harry losing that connection, it’s heart-wrenching.

Abbey: It’s also heart… well, I didn’t remember, too, until I reread that the pain in his scar was so bad it says that he vomited? That is a lot more extreme than I remember as well, and obviously more extreme than the movies show.

Micah: Yeah, and it is one of those… it’s really the first time, right? That we see this connection being made between Horcruxes, at least to this extent. I don’t think we’ve ever seen this with what happened in Chamber of Secrets, right? I don’t know if there’s any comparison here, but just the fact that Harry is able to get inside of the mind of Nagini and feel what it’s like to attack Arthur. And unfortunately, this is a major tipoff for Voldemort, and he’s able to manipulate Harry moving forward.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Abbey: I also just wanted to point out that it’s so sad to me how one second, Harry is a regular teenager who has his first kiss, and you have this moment of, “Oh, he’s going to be good, and he’s just a regular kid,” and then truly the next hour happens, and he’s Harry, and he has these huge problems.

Andrew: Yeah, it sucks. He’s been through a lot.

Laura: He’s just like, “Damn it, world.”

Andrew: “Give me one night. One night off.”

[Abbey and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Especially after my first kiss.” Yeah, after my first kiss, nothing like this happened.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It was in a Maryland parking garage, so definitely not the best location.

[Abbey laughs]

Micah: But you did throw up, right?

Andrew: I did throw up, yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It was a gross parking garage. [laughs]

Laura: What is it about a parking garage that brought the moment on, Andrew? [laughs]

Andrew: Well, there was some mistletoe in there.

Micah: We can’t judge.

Andrew: Yeah, don’t judge me! I’ll kiss where I want!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: So we’re about to update our Umbridge Suck count, but first, our second sponsor today is OpenFit.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Okay, time for the Umbridge Suck count to be updated. First of all, making fun of a half-giant. Should she get only one point for that, or should we give her more?

Laura: I think she deserves two points for that.

[Andrew gasps]

Micah: Yeah.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays twice]

Andrew: She also incorrectly identified Neville’s feelings about Thestrals, which I thought was presumptuous and inappropriate, so there’s one more.

Laura: Yep.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: I also thought that she’s just continuing to do her classroom inspections wrong. I have a background in education, and the number one rule of classroom inspections is you’re not supposed to “be there.”

Andrew: Ahh.

Laura: You’re supposed to sort of be invisible in the background; you’re not supposed to distract the students. You’re supposed to let the class play out as normal. She’s messing this up.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Great point. That is a great point. And over on Patreon this week, we are going to have a bonus MuggleCast, by the way, about Arthur Weasley. Y’all might remember that J.K. Rowling actually planned to kill Arthur in this scene, and then she changed her mind, so we will talk about her comments on that.


Connecting the Threads


Andrew: It’s time now for connecting the threads.

Laura: Yeah, so there are a lot of great throwbacks to Prisoner of Azkaban, as Micah talked about earlier on in this discussion. So one of the first things that we can look at is the presence of Thestrals, and actually in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 5, Harry calls this pretty well. He notices the horseless coaches, and Harry says each stagecoach was “pulled, Harry could only assume, by an invisible horse.” How right he was.

Andrew: Dang.

Laura: Then also, we see a lot of similarities in terms of Hagrid being discriminated against because of being a half-giant. This is very well-illustrated by Malfoy during their first Care of Magical Creatures class in Prisoner of Azkaban, saying, “God, this place is going to the dogs… That oaf teaching classes, my father’ll have a fit when I tell him.” And this is just a trend that follows Hagrid throughout the entire series, unfortunately. However, this is a really interesting thread between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix because we see Hagrid receiving discrimination from the Board of Governors as well as from students, and in Order of the Phoenix, it has turned into full-on employer-based discrimination, with Umbridge being the Hogwarts High Inquisitor and making these decisions. And then another really cool thing is that around this point in Prisoner of Azkaban, prior to the holidays, Lupin offers to give Harry private lessons to learn how to create his Patronus, and reading over the tone of those lessons, I think Harry took a lot of pointers on teaching from Lupin.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Think you’re right.

Laura: Lupin is very nuanced. There’s even a point where they’re talking about Sirius Black, and Lupin is explaining what the Dementor’s Kiss is and that it is the fate that awaits Sirius, and Harry just blurts out, “Well, he deserves it.” And Lupin has this great teaching moment with Harry where he’s like, “Really? Does anybody deserve that?” And I think that this really helps Harry be a much more level-headed, nuanced teacher in Order of the Phoenix.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give mine to Cho for being gutsier than Harry. That was her who initiated the kiss, right?

Abbey and Laura: Yes.

Abbey: For sure.

Andrew: Good on you, Cho.

Micah: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: That takes something that many people don’t have.

Micah: She wanted that Firebolt.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I alluded to this earlier, but I gave my MVP of the Week to Dobby for just lightening the mood a bit. The fact that Harry was able to come into the Room of Requirement and see those holiday baubles with his face on it, I just thought, probably made him feel pretty good.

Laura: I gave mine to McGonagall for believing Harry.

Abbey: That’s a good one.

[Andrew laughs]

Abbey: I gave mine to Hermione for helping Hagrid and trying to teach the men about women’s brains.

Andrew: Okay. [laughs]


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “The Lips of the Girl.” The Eye of the Snake, the Lips of the Girl.

Micah: All right, I’ll let that one go.

[Andrew and Laura laughs]

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motor…” Oh, sorry. “Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Thestral Bomb of a Lesson.”

Andrew: Ohhh!

Laura: [laughs] Feel very strongly about that lesson. I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “Kiss the Girl.”

Andrew: Love it.

Andrew: Like Little Mermaid?

Laura: Yeah, like, [singing] “Sha-la-la-la-la-la, don’t be scared.”

Abbey: I went… I have two, but I’m going to go with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 21, “Wet Kisses and Bad Dreams.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “How was the kiss?” “Wet.”

Laura: Oh, I love this.

Andrew: “You’re that bad of a kisser, huh?” That was a great line from Ron.

Abbey: And then he’s like, “I don’t know, am I?” He’d never thought about that.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s something you think about.

Abbey: Right.

Andrew: That’s what I was thinking about in that Maryland parking garage.

Micah: After you vomited, right?

Andrew: After I vomited, yeah.

[Abbey laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in; MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. We also love hearing your voices, so record a voice memo using the app already installed on your phone and send that to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We’d love feedback about this discussion, or if you have any questions or comments about Chapter 22.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch. What was last week’s question, Micah?

[Quizzitch music plays]

Micah: Last week’s question was: Whose death allows Neville to see Thestrals? And the answer is his granddad. Winners included Ann, Andrea, Kate, Meg, Tara, CountRavioli, Stacey, and Caleb.

Laura: So glad to see CountRavioli.

Micah: CountRavioli is back.

Andrew: Stay safe, CountRavioli.

Micah: This week’s question… glad I have three to choose from. I’m going to go with the first one. What is the name on the department store front which hides St. Mungo’s to Muggles? It’s a good question. I like that.

Andrew: I didn’t realize Eric put these in. I thought it was you. [laughs]

Micah: No, it wasn’t me. So if you want to participate, head on over to Twitter; reply at @MuggleCast with hashtag “Quizzitch.”

Andrew: We would love if you also joined our community at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By doing so, you are supporting this podcast; we are only weekly right now because of you. And if you pledge at the $5 level or higher, you will be eligible for our physical gift coming in just a few months. Our oldest patrons will be receiving the gift first; we’re going to do an early wave for those who have been with us since the beginning, and then they will be going out to everybody. Everybody’s going to be getting it by the summer at the latest, I think, so we’re really excited to roll that out. And you will also be eligible for other excellent benefits, like bonus MuggleCast, and like I said earlier, we will be talking more about J.K. Rowling deciding to not kill Arthur Weasley. We have this interview with J.K. Rowling from 2007 in which she discussed this. The headline from Today.com, back in 2007: “Rowling: I wanted to kill parents.” [laughs]

Laura: Oh my God, maybe this is where Hermione gets it from.

Andrew: Oh! Yeah, see? You thought I was crazy.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So that’ll be on our Patreon this week, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Become a member today. Thank you. And thank you, Abbey, for being a patron. It was great having you on today.

Abbey: I loved it. And I know I said this before we started recording, but I’m just really thankful for MuggleCast because I’ve been listening since I was… I don’t know, it was QuickTime files, I feel like.

[Andrew laughs]

Abbey: And I’m just… it really inspired me to start a podcast with my best friend, and inspired us to do a Patreon, and it’s just been a really fun journey. So you guys have always set the standard really high. And I didn’t say it before, but you can listen to “The On-Call Room” on iTunes and Spotify. I realized… I texted my friend; I was like, “I forgot everything I was going to say!”

[Andrew laughs]

Abbey: But I’m just really thankful for you guys, so thanks for having me.

Andrew: Yeah, no, you were excellent, as I knew you would be.

Laura: Yeah, you’re great.

Andrew: Yeah, because you’ve got this podcast of your own, and we’ll put a link to the show in the show notes.

Abbey: That’d be great.

Andrew: I’m sure we have people out there who watch Grey’s Anatomy, and I’m really happy for you that you’ve launched a podcast and have done so well with that. It’s so great.

Abbey: Thank you so much!

Andrew: Yeah, thank you again. That’s “The On-Call Room,” available wherever podcasts are available. All right, thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Abbey: And I’m Abbey.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Micah: Bye. Wash your hands.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Wash your damn hands.

Andrew: I’m washing my hands, I’m not touching my face, and I am staying self-quarantined. Goodbye.