Transcript #502

 

MuggleCast 502 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #502, All The Ways Hogwarts Is A Security Nightmare


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We have a big episode today. After years of occasionally touching on the subject – laughing about it – we’re going to run through every security and safety issue at Hogwarts. It was just time to get it all out there to prove the case and to laugh and cry about it all. But before we do that, there is a little news item to mention. We here at the show have been concerned about the fate of Lavender Brown. The books left it open ended – the final book did, I should say – and the movie, it was a little more clear in the movie. She looked like she was dead, but we didn’t know for sure. And then Pottermore – now Potter-no-more – came along and they published character profiles, and they had one for Lavender, and it said, “Fate: presumed dead.” And we were like, “Presumed dead? This is J.K. Rowling’s website. Shouldn’t she know?” So then we started calling it out – I think I wrote about it on my site Hypable – and then that section disappeared!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Didn’t say if she was alive or dead. Just nothing. Well, now people have noticed that in the popular iOS Android game Wizards Unite, there is a page for Lavender Brown, and it says, “A member of Dumbledore’s Army, she tragically died during the Battle of Hogwarts.” Now, I know this is Wizards Unite; it’s not canon, technically. But I feel like they’re probably working off of some sort of behind-the-scenes database with all of the canon information, all the officially approved information that they can publish in the game, right? So is this confirmation?

Eric: This might be as close as we’re going to get.

Micah: Agreed.

Laura: I agree. I still… justice for Lavender, though. They did her dirty.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Like, come on. We’ve been wondering about this for years, and then finally, instead of it being a big announcement, a solemn recognition of what happened, they’re like, “Let’s just put it in Wizards Unite.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Let’s bury it.”

Laura: “She’s dead.”

Andrew: Last sentence in her character bio.

Laura: “Dead as hell.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It is an appropriate news story, though, for the discussion we’re about to have on Hogwarts being a security nightmare. Students just die in battles that are hosted on the school grounds. I think honestly, though, they’re saving Lavender for the upcoming spinoff series; it’s going to be a big reveal. She’s basically the Michael Myers of the Harry Potter series.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my gosh.

Micah: You never really know if she’s dead or not.

Andrew: Oh, fun.

Laura: That’s a great idea.

Andrew: I’m going to take this as canon because I feel like that’s some sensitive information that I think they would need to pull from some sort of behind-the-scenes, like I said, database with all the canon info.

Eric: Yeah, they can’t announce a new Lavender Brown spinoff series while this information is in one of their games.

Andrew: Yeah, Wizards Unite just can’t go out there and claim Lavender Brown is dead without being sure.

Eric: Right!


Main Discussion: All the ways Hogwarts is a security nightmare


Andrew: So let’s move to our main discussion now: all the ways that Hogwarts is a security and safety nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: Thank you, Linden, for making that sound effect. So we started talking about this on the show probably two, maybe three years ago. This idea had entered my head because I was at a Halloween party in Chicago and I was dressed as a Hatstall student, like I just couldn’t decide which House to be in so I was wearing gear from all four. And somebody decided to start talking to me about Harry Potter, and he was bringing up all the ways that Hogwarts was a security nightmare. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so funny,” and then I brought it to MuggleCast. And it’s really resonated with listeners, but we’ve never actually spent an entire episode on it. So it’s an important discussion because for decades, the students and the teachers at the school have been lied to. “Harry Potter is in danger? Put him at Hogwarts. It’s safe there, totally!” they claim.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Major threats afoot to the larger wizarding world? Oh, keep all the kids at Hogwarts. It’s fine; no problem. That’s the safe place for them. Threats within the school? Within the school? Oh, keep the kids in school. No problem. It’s totally fine. Don’t worry, parents.” Even Hagrid, remember that one time, said Gringotts was the safest place in the world for something you wanted to hide – except perhaps Hogwarts. So we’ve been misled this whole time. You know who had it right? Dobby. Remember when he said, “Harry Potter must not go back to Hogwarts”? “Harry Potter must stay where he is safe. He is too great, too good, to lose. If Harry Potter goes back to Hogwarts, he will be in mortal danger!” Dobby warned us so early on about the staircases and the Forbidden Forest.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: So Dobby wasn’t talking about the looming threat of Slytherin’s monster.

Andrew: Nope.

Eric: He was just talking about Hogwarts’s natural state as way too dangerous.

Andrew: Exactly. And we will talk about Slytherin’s monster; that is one of the biggest security nightmares at Hogwarts.

Eric: Obviously, yeah.

Andrew: But he was also talking about the staircase. That was actually a deleted scene.

Micah: I don’t know how I feel about this, because isn’t Dobby part of the security nightmare that Harry encounters in his second year there?

Andrew: Whoa.

Micah: Doesn’t he take some action that injures Harry?

Eric: Yeah, the Bludger.

Micah: Could have killed him?

Andrew: Don’t you… well, we will talk about Quidditch being a problem, but that wasn’t Dobby’s fault. I mean, it was, but it’s not his fault they play Quidditch.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s like security nightmare inception.

Andrew: [laughs] And Harry actually caught on to the fact that Hogwarts was a security nightmare by the end of his time there. He said in Deathly Hallows – Part 2 to Snape, “It seems despite your exhaustive defensive strategies, you still have a bit of a security problem, Headmaster.” See? So there’s been some clues over the years that Hogwarts was a total mess; we just really didn’t catch on until more recently. But that’s the thing; you grow. You live and learn. So we have 23 here.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And I’m sure we’ll have some others that spin off of these. Let’s start with security nightmares 101: moving staircases at Hogwarts. We’re introduced to these early on. Why do the staircases have to move?

Eric: It’s fun.

Laura: It’s magical.

Andrew: It’s not fun.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s like train tracks, right? They’re made to be switched so that you can have more efficient transportation. Now, I will say what I don’t understand is why one of these moving staircases, if I recall correctly, has a missing step.

Eric: Yep. A trick step.

Laura: Yeah, why?

Andrew: Ugh, my gosh. We have 24 now.

Eric: You will twist an ankle. That is a health and safety nightmare.

Andrew: Well, and how about this? How about a warning that the staircases are going to move? Is there any sort of warning, like a little “Alert, alert, they’re about to move, hold on”?

Micah: The portraits, right? I mean, they’re not doing anything else.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, they should… I mean, do they move at certain intervals? Is it random? Because when you’re on a monorail or a train or a plane, what do they tell you before takeoff or the monorail starts moving? “Please be seated. Please hold on to the railing; it’s about to move.” And then what happens when you’re on the subway and you’re not holding on to anything and the subway car starts to move? You fall backwards. You look like an idiot. This is what would happen with the moving staircases. This is what does happen! And Hogwarts doesn’t tell us this, but I am sure that at least three students a year fall off the stairs and fall to their deaths because of these moving staircases.

Laura: Is this your Bill Maher “I don’t know it for a fact, I just know it’s true”?

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, yes. I don’t know it for a fact, but I just know it’s true. Students die on these staircases.

Eric: [laughs] The staircases as we commonly think of them are more of a movie-ism, in my opinion. I think it’s one of those things that J.K. Rowling really liked and may have embraced in later books, but I think the textual basis for the staircases just straight up moving… let’s not forget that’s how they get to the third floor corridor, because they omitted the whole trophy room scene, or the Midnight Duel scene, so that was a convenient movie-ism. But also, the actual textual basis was the line about staircases on Harry’s first day of school: “There were 142 staircases at Hogwarts: wide, sweeping ones; narrow, rickety ones; some that led somewhere different on a Friday…”

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: “… some with a vanishing step halfway up…” So it’s not that the staircases would ever move while you’re standing on them; that’s ridiculous. But the idea that the configuration of Hogwarts internally is changing, so that a staircase would just happen to put you out somewhere else, that sounds more like a transporter beam than moving… yeah.

Micah: This sounds like it’s a psychological nightmare to me…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … especially for young students that are trying to get to class, especially first years. They’re trying to make sure they’re on time, they know where they’re going… all these staircases doing different things, taking them in different directions, what kind of impact is that having on their mental health at such a young age?

Eric: I think it keeps their wits about them. It keeps their wits; they allow themselves… they’re learning valuable life lessons, like having their bearings and figuring out where they are from other landmarks and not the same old set of staircases.

Micah: If that landmark is in the same place every day.

Eric: Well, that’s true; the suits of armors move too. Maybe that’s a… [laughs] you can get lost. Here’s something that’s pretty much exactly as it appears in the books and the movies: the fact that Hogwarts is located right next to what some call or have called the “Dark Forest,” the Forbidden Forest. This is a forest containing endless dangerous creatures. Students are told to stay out, but we know that has the effect of only increasing their interest in taking a look. There’s no gate. There’s no security. You can just walk right in, and not only that, but due to the proximity of this crazy dangerous dark forest, the students are then given detention in the forest. So one of our listeners Feryal brilliantly points out, “Third years cannot go to Hogsmeade without written permission, but first years can go into the forest of crazy creatures under the supervision of Hagrid? The man who sees Acromantulas as teddy bears?” We’ll get to Hagrid. I’m sure there’s a whole list of Hagrid as a security nightmare on these things.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But yeah, the Black Forest. “This is a perfect place for a school,” thought the founders. Uh… hello.

Andrew: Right next to a dangerous forest, yeah. The detention really gets me because it’s like, “You’re not allowed to go in here, except for when you’re being punished. And we don’t care if you’re a first year; you still have to go in here.” If you’re allowed to serve a detention in the Forbidden Forest, I think that implies that the Forbidden Forest actually isn’t that dangerous, which isn’t true. So it’s misleading, which makes it more dangerous.

Eric: Right. Well, and there’s so many kinds of danger, too, in the forest. There’s centaurs, for example; they could kill you. But that’s more of like, if they disagree with you or if you try and interfere or whatever, so there’s so many ways you can get yourself in hot water. It’s not just with dangerous poisons or regular old nature stuff, getting lost and starvation and the elements. There’s a number of things.

Andrew: There’s a car running loose in there.

Eric: Yeah, you could get hit by a car in the Forbidden Forest!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Oh my gosh. Yeah, this feels to me like perhaps some medieval punishment that’s just been passed down over the years. I feel like that’s how we can explain a lot of these security nightmares.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s just common practices that have been passed down over the centuries.

Andrew: So nobody thinks of it anymore.

Laura: Yeah, exactly. They’re like, “That’s just normal. Yeah, send the kids out into the forest with the haunted car and the giant spiders. Yeah, that’s fine.”

Andrew: I think… I obviously don’t want the forest torn down. We don’t like deforestation here at MuggleCast. But maybe a nice tall gate, or an age line like they put around the Goblet of Fire.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: I mean, come on. There’s ways to easily keep the kids out.

Eric: The fact that they traipse into the forest deliberately looking for something that can kill a unicorn is another thing entirely. [laughs] That’s the worst.

Laura: Well, also, Hagrid takes them into the forest for his class, remember? To see the Thestrals. And he was like, “Oh, I’m not taking you very far,” but it’s like, “I’m still in.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: There’s no in or out of danger when you’re in the forest. If you’re in, you’re in.

Laura: Right. Exactly.

Eric: I wonder if originally they didn’t think that the proximity of all this nature to the school would be good for students, to learn more about their world? But something or someone happened and then it was just way too dangerous.

Andrew: Or why did it have to be right next to the school? It’s right next to the school.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: It’s just a nice outdoor classroom.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Nice? Or sick?

Micah: I’m actually okay with the forest. I think it adds character to Hogwarts.

Eric: “Character.”

Andrew: Oh, these all add character. That’s for sure.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I was going to say – speaking of a very different kind of danger – let’s talk about the Black Lake.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: Hogwarts plumbing apparently drains into this lake.

[Andrew gags]

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Which just raises so many questions for me. First of all, the giant squid lives there. That’s the giant squid’s house, and you’re flushing your you-know-what into his house! What?

Andrew: [laughs] Oh man, this would have been a perfect episode to have the host of FartCast on, getting back to our pre-show discussion.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah, let’s see if we can get that for next week.

Laura: This also raises the question for me, why was the second task in the Triwizard Tournament to make them swim in this lake?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh no!

Andrew: Look, I’m telling you, I looked it up, and yes, this is where the Hogwarts plumbing leads to. It’s true.

Eric: It’s a sepsis nightmare.

Laura: But why? Exactly. It’s a cholera nightmare. What I don’t understand is… I feel like I’m getting whiplash here, because we heard within the last couple years that wizards can just vanish their, mm…

Andrew: Right.

Laura: … and now you have indoor plumbing, and you’re all precious about needing to use it? Just vanish it.

Eric: They could have a Vanishing Charm set up on the U-bend of every toilet.

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: So wizards don’t even need to worry about waving their wand near their you know what.

Andrew: I am, by the way, looking at where the plumbing information came from, the source, and that did come from Chapter 26 of Goblet of Fire, “The Second Task,” so I guess it’s brought up.

Laura: What?!

Andrew: Before they take a dive in there. [laughs]

Laura: So wait a… yeah, so Harry knows this, and he’s like, “Yeah, sure”?

Eric: Myrtle talks about it too. Yeah, Myrtle talks about not paying attention and accidentally finding yourself out at sea if somebody flushes and she doesn’t expect it.

Andrew: Oh, that’s exactly right. Yeah, that’s where it came from. Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Eric: But so it’s also… but wait a minute; it’s also a security nightmare to the squid and all the animals in the lake.

Micah: The merpeople.

Laura: Yeah, what about the merpeople? Yeah, exactly.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, God.

Andrew: And it’s super deep, so students could go for a swim in there and then drown. That also makes it a security nightmare. A safety nightmare.

Eric: Isn’t it common practice for waste removal methods built by humans to empty into water?

Laura: Yes.

Andrew: But don’t they get purified or something?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: No, the water gets purified coming in when we pull it in to drink it, but I am not convinced there’s actually any sort of cleaning method the other direction.

Laura: Yeah, no. I mean, also… generally speaking – I can’t speak for every locality – but there are usually laws about where and how much, and I just don’t see that being a consideration at Hogwarts. I can see Dumbledore just being like, “Yeah, flush it.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Flush it.

Eric: I didn’t even think about the students swimming around in their own fecal matter.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Why is it black, you guys? Most lakes are green.

Micah: Eughh.

Eric: Toxic sludge.

Micah: No, but can you imagine at some point during the day all of a sudden you start to hear a little bit of rumble, and one merperson says to the other, “Oh no, Hagrid used the toilet again”?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Wait, does Hagrid have a toilet?

Micah: Oh.

Eric: He might just go in the lake.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: He goes in the woods. He’s definitely a woods-goer.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Let’s move on. This is too much.

Laura: Oh my God. I know; this is straight-up toilet humor. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, well, speaking of the Triwizard Tournament and the second task, let’s talk a little bit about the tournament itself. It is extremely dangerous to compete in no matter what age you are; we learn this in the beginning of the fourth book. We even heard that students have died in the past. But given what’s happened in Harry’s first three years at Hogwarts, why not bring a task to the school where students can perish? It just makes sense, right?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And not only are you bringing a fatal tournament to the school with tasks where students can die, you’re bringing in two other schools to compete, one of which is led by a former Death Eater in Igor Karkaroff and whose most famous alumni is Grindelwald. So I don’t get it, Dumbledore. What the bleep are you doing here?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, there’s not much concern, is there, really?

Eric: The Triwizard Tournament is sold to the students, to Harry and all them, as being a fun way to promote international cooperation and really just break up the horror from last year’s Dementors on the grounds. So like, “We know what will cheer the students up: Let’s have a very dangerous contest where one of you will most certainly, if we’re going by statistics, be dead.”

Andrew: Right. “Oh, and Harry, yeah, your name was spit out of the Goblet. I mean, we already have three, and now you’re the fourth, which never happens, but no problem. Sorry. You still have to compete. We don’t care if you’re underage.”

Micah: “Yeah, that binding magical contract; we can’t do anything about it.”

Andrew: “Yeah, we have to abide by it. So sorry.”

Micah: “You’ve just got to go through the motions, and best of luck.” Tell that to Cedric Diggory.

Andrew: Right. What would’ve happened? Was that ever answered? What would have happened if Harry just said, “No, I’m not doing this”? Does he explode?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Does imposter Moody explode for putting his name in? All right, so let’s get back to Hagrid. His Care of Magical Creatures class, you come face to face with dangerous creatures. And the class is taught by – I’m sorry – an incompetent half-giant, which further endangers the students. The hippogriff situation, I think, was one of the most on-point examples of the dangers. Also, Laura pointed out that Hagrid teaches a couple classes in the Forbidden Forest. There’s a way to teach this class without endangering the students. I know Hagrid wants to do some more, host hands-on lessons, but maybe keep these animals – I hate to say this, but – in a cage.

Laura: Oof.

Andrew: Make the class a little safer. And I know Draco, he wasn’t following the rules, but still, you have to assume that a student in the class is not going to follow the directions perfectly.

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, to make sure we don’t go too Umbridge here, I just want to say that Hagrid’s incompetence has nothing to do with him being half-giant, right?

Andrew: No, I wasn’t… I didn’t know how to describe him otherwise. He is a half-giant. An incompetent teacher. [laughs]

Laura: There we go. I was about to say, how is his blood status relevant to his incompetence?

Andrew: [obnoxiously] “Well, we all know that half-giants…”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, I would agree with Laura. I think the security nightmare isn’t necessarily the class; it’s the person who’s teaching it.

Eric: Exactly.

Micah: Hagrid has a track record. We’ve talked about it on the show. You go back to Sorcerer’s Stone; think about Norberta. Think about Fluffy. Think about Aragog in Chamber of Secrets. And now you get to him teaching in Book 3. He’s got a good heart, but the execution of teaching for him just doesn’t work because his heart wins out all the time. He’s just so excited to show these creatures off to the students, especially Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that he just loses complete track of what it is that he’s supposed to be doing. And he really does put the security of the students second to just his overall excitement for being able to teach the class.

Eric: Absolutely. And any good teacher should understand implicitly the skill level and the care that your students are going to take when introduced with a new living creature, and Hagrid neglects to care for that. Even if he wanted to teach everyone hippogriffs, he knows somebody like Malfoy is his student and would not be paying attention to the finer points and would get himself injured. You need to adjust your curriculum. I think the Hogwarts teachers have this ability to adjust their curriculum based on the level that the students are at. I mean, if you have a bunch of students who really, really, really care, you can do more dangerous potions, like we imagine Snape does with his NEWT classes. But someone like Hagrid is just like, “No, I want to teach them this beast, and they’ll get it; they’ll find all the same things interesting that I do.” It’s just wrong. It’s incorrect.

Laura: Yes, I agree. And he allows his enthusiasm to impact his curriculum, to your point. I think Hermione points out that hippogriffs are actually above grade level for them being third years, but Hagrid is just so excited that he wants to show them something flashy and cool that he doesn’t start with the basics where he should.

[Ad break]

Andrew: So we did get some from our listeners as well.

Eric: Yeah, and here’s one from Justin. He says, “The Gryffindor common room’s fireplace being on the Floo Network,” and Laura added, “Because of this, an escaped convict was able to talk to fourth years, which is not great.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: In fact, I would extend this to say all of the ways in which Sirius Black got into Hogwarts, or can get into Hogwarts. Or not even Sirius Black – actual criminals, actual Death Eaters. All the ways in which somebody from the outside… even when Hogwarts is at its maximum state of vigilance, the very fact that there are so many ways into the castle is a ridiculous… possibly the most damning security nightmare of them all.

Andrew: We have some examples of that later in this discussion, I think. But it makes you wonder, why was the Gryffindor common room on the Floo Network? And were the other Hogwarts House common room fireplaces on the Floo Network as well? And like, okay, maybe the students can talk to their parents; that could be nice.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But the common rooms seem like a pretty private place. Students deserve privacy in the common room. And I mean, Sirius – or anyone, it seems – could basically spy on the children in the common room.

Eric: Oh, creepy. You just look over from homework and there’s a head in there of somebody you don’t recognize.

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: Yeah, especially Umbridge, because we know she does this too.

Micah: She’s a peeper.

Laura: How many times that year during their fifth year do you think she was just low-key pulling an NSA on the trio and just monitoring them? So gross.

Andrew: I was doing some reading on the Floo Network, and it seems like every magical house is connected to the Floo Network. I don’t know if I would trust the Ministry. I want to know more about the security around the Floo Network.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: How do you place a call? Can you can you shut off access easily? I don’t know. There’s a lot of questions there. That’s a home security nightmare. I would not like having the Floo Network attached to my home; I just would be afraid that somebody would somehow break in.

Micah: Of course.

Laura: What if it was the Floo Network by Apple, though? Would you do it then?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: They have some security flaws from time to time, Laura, so I don’t know.

Micah: iFloo.

Andrew: [laughs] iFloo. Wow. Great name.

Micah: There you go. But yeah, I’m curious here too. I mean, we see how Sirius uses it, but could it also be used for actual travel like we see in Chamber of Secrets? Could anybody just decide “I’m going to the Gryffindor common room today” and pop in?

Andrew: Right, yeah. It’s not right.

Laura: All right, this next one comes from Julianne. Julianne says, “Prefects being left in charge of students when Sirius Black is roaming the castle. Did anyone think maybe a few actual adults should be in charge?”

Micah: No.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, this is… I can definitely see the Hogwarts teachers being like, “Yeah, just… prefects do your thing,” and then they go to the staff room, Trelawney gets out her bottle of sherry, and they just rave.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: They’re like, “Yeah, there’s an escaped convict in the castle. Whatevs.”

Andrew: “The kids got this. No problem.”

Eric: I feel like they’re out searching the grounds, but that’s still an oversight.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: There is way too much trust placed in the students; I think that’s what really this all comes down to. The Care of Magical Creatures classes; the Triwizard Tournament, competing in that; the Forbidden Forest… everything comes down to, do you trust the students? And I think we learned throughout the series that no, a lot of them cannot be trusted.

Micah: No.

Laura: Do we think…?

Micah: I was thinking, too… oh, go ahead, Laura.

Laura: Oh, I was going to say, do we think maybe this is a commentary on boarding school life? Because prefects are a thing.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And I wonder if it’s intended to be a commentary on how students or young people can sometimes find themselves in positions of authority, and you can have mixed results depending on the motivations that each person has, right? We see this with Draco and his fellow Slytherins when they get put on the Inquisitorial Squad. And even though that happens, they still make Draco a prefect. I don’t understand. [laughs]

Micah: You’re putting so much trust into these young adults. And I’m even thinking back to Sorcerer’s Stone when they’re told to take the students from the Great Hall back to their dormitories when there’s the troll in the dungeon, but what if they run into the troll somehow? Maybe the troll was feeling a little bit energetic that day and ran up the stairs and was in the hallway somewhere. Do you really trust that Percy would be able to save the Gryffindor students from the troll if in fact they encountered the danger?

Laura: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Nothing against Percy. Anyway, we talked about this one a little bit already, but Quidditch is a big security nightmare. You have this high-flying, high-impact game in which you send balls directly at people with the intent of hurting them.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, Andrew.

Andrew: What?

Laura: Nothing. Just move on. [laughs]

Andrew: This is serious, Laura…

Micah: Bludgers, okay?

Andrew: … in which you sell balls directly at people, heavy, big balls directly at people to hurt them.

Eric: Yeah, hit in your face. Just thwapping against the side of your face.

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: That hurts.

Andrew: Imagine this being a Muggle sport. You don’t see this in baseball, tennis, football…

Eric: Maybe hockey, right? Like, vicious…

Andrew: Well, you check people.

Micah: I mean, in football, they are throwing themselves at each other. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but they’re not… it’s not the same, though. This is a lot more violent, in my opinion.

Laura: Yeah, they’re not doing it in the middle… like, 70 feet in the air.

Eric: That’s the other thing, yeah. Land sports are one thing, things with a field. But when you’re in the air and can go all directions, that’s so many more directions that things could go wrong.

Micah: Yeah. No, I actually like this point a lot about being sent hundreds of feet up into the air, and you’re being targeted, essentially. What if you fall off your broom? You’re not always going to have Dumbo though – [laughs] sorry – you’re not always going to have Dumbledore there to go “Arresto momentum” and stop you from falling from the sky.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, that’s the other thing; the brooms don’t have a seat belt. I mean, the whole Quidditch pitch, the field should just be a giant cushion for these students. Why is it hard ground below them? I know there’s Skele-gro; I know they can be fixed. But why let their bones break at all? [laughs]

Eric: That’s a really good question, honestly. It might be the defining question. Why let the students suffer that pain? You’re right. I mean, they have that playground material now that’s made from cut-up tires; why isn’t the pitch just that? Or a net, like a trapeze artist uses?

Andrew: Yeah, a net. There you go.

Micah: Oh, they should put a net. That’d be interesting.

Andrew: Yeah, a net.

Eric: Could be a magical net. I mean, anything – literally anything – to prevent the ground from coming up on you.

Laura: I feel like if they were to implement this, I could see certain Hogwarts alumni being like, “Back in my day, we fell off our rooms and we liked it!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Students are babies these days!”

Micah: That said, the game of Quidditch does sound like it’s in a much better state than what we heard about when we were going through our review of Quidditch Through the Ages.

Eric: Right, it used to be worse, but that doesn’t mean it’s good now. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. All right, so the next one, this is mind-blowing. We mentioned this earlier: the Basilisk. There’s a giant snake running through oversized pipes in the school put there by Muggle-blood hater Salazar Slytherin. The Basilisk remained in the school for centuries, and then Tom Riddle, Slytherin’s true heir, eventually sending it into action, it kills Moaning Myrtle. But the Basilisk remains in the school, and everybody acts like everything’s okay. And then, of course, it gets brought back to life during Harry’s second year. I mean, what on earth? The school should have been shut down the moment Salazar put the snake in the school. It should have been dead on arrival at that point. “We cannot teach here while a giant snake is lurking under the school, just waiting to be activated by Slytherin’s true heir to go and kill half-bloods or Muggle-borns.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Well, at the time that he left the school, would anyone have known about this? I can understand Hogwarts continuing at that point if nobody else knew that it was there, but certainly after the events that got Hagrid expelled from Hogwarts, something should’ve been done. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. I mean, I guess the question is when was it discovered initially?

Eric: Well, there were rumors, right? I think that ever since Slytherin left, there were rumors that he left something behind, a secret chamber. It’s persisted throughout the centuries. I think Laura is right, though; where it really comes to a head is where Myrtle is killed. And now, to be fair, Hogwarts is not under Dumbledore at the time. It’s Dippet’s security nightmare.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But nobody follows up. Myrtle is literally killed 15 feet from the very entrance to the Chamber, and we’re just meant to believe that for the next 50 years, teachers and everybody alike were like, “No, we don’t know where that thing is”? “We can’t find the Chamber of Secrets. We don’t know anything about it. Maybe it doesn’t exist.” People want to believe that it’s the Acromantula in Hagrid’s cupboard that was doing all the killing, but somebody like Dumbledore, who isn’t headmaster, has all the free time in the world to track down this chamber, and doesn’t. Just like, “Yeah, hold my classes; have Grubbly-Plank or somebody stand in for Transfiguration. I got this, Dippet. I’m going to find the Chamber.” He doesn’t. There’s no follow-through at all throughout the decades following Myrtle’s very real death. It’s unbelievable.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I don’t like excusing Dumbledore of responsibility because I feel like if he were in charge at this time, he would have just let it go as he’s let so many other security nightmares go during his time as headmaster.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I just still can’t wrap my head around the idea that they are comfortable with a baby Acromantula being responsible for what happened to Myrtle. Don’t they know what she died from? Don’t they know enough to understand that putting this on Hagrid just doesn’t make sense? I get it was a cover-up, and honestly, Dippet should have spent time in Azkaban for it, if you ask me. But yeah, this is just again, the school, as Andrew said, being a security nightmare. You have this gigantic snake slithering through… again, the plumbing. We’re back at the plumbing.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Always comes back to the plumbing.

Eric: One things leads to another here.

Micah: J.K. Rowling, maybe she loved a plumber in her early years of dating or something.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But the other thing is like, surely this giant snake can be detected. The Marauder’s Map is a thing that is possible; there’s got to be other ways to detect who and what is around Hogwarts. So it just doesn’t check out to me that this thing… even if Salazar put it there and nobody noticed or nobody knew, I don’t know. There’s got to be some hints. The pipes rattling a lot, there’s a growling happening underneath all the toilets all the time…

Eric: Well, that’s the whole thing, is the main entrance to the Chamber of Secrets is guarded by Parseltongue. You need to be… and that’s a very rare sort of thing, but I think you can infer from the legend if it’s something that only Slytherin can call, Parseltongue seems to be a very likely way in which the Chamber is guarded. If they ever did a search – and we were told I think in Chamber of Secrets that searches have been conducted – nobody competent was running those searches, because they would have been sure to send far and wide word that they need somebody who can do Parseltongue, and any excuse that that could make is cut off at the knees by the fact that Ron in Deathly Hallows just mutters a little bit and imitates Parseltongue, and it works.

Andrew: Exactly. “I just did an impression!” [laughs]

Eric: Literally no one even just tried going [makes hissing sounds] to the faucet when Myrtle died. Nobody tried.

Andrew: Whoa, Eric, you just activated a snake in my house. Oh my God.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That was crazy.

Micah: Yeah, what was it doing for that long?

Eric: Sorry, is it your Alexa Snake? Your Echo Snake?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Did anyone even bother to talk to Myrtle after all this?

Eric: Oh, yeah!

Laura: Obviously we know the trio does, and she describes perfectly what happened to her, and if you took 30 seconds to ask her what the last thing she saw before she died was, it wasn’t a baby spider.

Andrew: Right!

Eric: Oh my God. You’re right.

Micah: Yeah, it was two eyes, not eight.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, anybody ask her? Did anybody think to ask the dead girl what happened? She’s a ghost.

Eric: Yeah, and there’s not… even if that’s the entrance to the Chamber, the snake gets around the school inside the walls. There have to be other methods by which you can gain access to those same tunnels and then trace them down to find the Chamber. Nuts. Here is another one: This one’s quick, but it’s required reading. Assigned reading. The Monster Book of Monsters, a massive book that’s required reading and can eat you alive.

Andrew: [laughs] Come on.

Eric: I mean, I think at the most, it probably… you might lose a knuckle, but yeah, it’s an unnecessary risk. Hagrid thinks it’s funny, and that in and of itself should tell you everything you need to know about how safe it is.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, look at it this way. Would you three be comfortable studying with this book?

Eric: Not really.

Laura: No.

Andrew: I wouldn’t. How could you focus on your work knowing that maybe this book is…? I know you’ve got to tickle the spine and then it’s friendly, but what if it goes rogue? What if it’s hungry? What if it’s having a bad day?

Laura: Also, I think this is a publishing nightmare, because it’s obviously not Hogwarts’s or Hagrid’s fault that this book exists. Like, this was somebody’s idea.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: They were like, “You know what would be really cool? If we made a book about monsters that tried to bite your hand off. Yeah, send it to the press.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They don’t even tell the bookstores how to handle it. There are no instructions that come with it, so that poor clerk at Flourish and Blotts has bandages over all of his hands, and he’s like, “This is the worst thing ever.” He sees Harry coming a mile away, and he’s like, [weepily] “Hogwarts? Okay, I’m going to call my wife and tell her I love her.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: As he goes into the cage to get the book. Yeah, it’s nuts. These books should come with instructions. And the books should be docile or drugged at the time of sale, and it should be something that you have to… like a Tamagotchi; you have to activate it, and then it’s kind of alive.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Well, back to Hogwarts just not having adequate protection from the outside world, a dog was able to break into the school, which strongly suggests that it isn’t that hard to get in in the first place.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And just first of all, great point here; it seems like a pretty big oversight, when you consider the number of valuables and just the history of the school, that a dog could get in.

Eric: Well, a dog with a human mind.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, but they also… in this world, Animagi exist. [laughs] So why would you not think of this as being one of the top ways that somebody might try to infiltrate the school?

Andrew: Yeah, and I think… my point here, too, is just that anybody seemingly can get into the school, period. I don’t think it’s that hard. If you really wanted to break into Hogwarts, you could.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, Peter Pettigrew practically lived at Hogwarts for years.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: That’s the biggest security nightmare.

Laura: Yeah! It’s like, nobody caught that?

Andrew: [laughs] Right. I mean, Dumbledore needs his own Marauder’s Map. I know why Fred and George wouldn’t recognize Pettigrew on the map, but Dumbledore needs his own to keep an eye on everybody, or just… maybe not a map, just a long list of everybody who’s currently in the school. That would probably solve a lot of problems. I know the map is creepy, so a list could be a good alternative.

Micah: And just to bring back the forest for a second, if you’re staking it out, trying to figure out the best time to infiltrate, you have that entire forest just to be able to pass the time. You could just hang out there. Nobody’s going to find you there.

Andrew: And if you’re a dog, plenty of trees to pee on.

Laura: Oh, we’re back to bathroom humor.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Just don’t go in the lake.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Just back to the plumbing. Every time.

Micah: Well, one person who you could argue was sent to deal with all of this nonsense from Dumbledore was Dolores Umbridge, so maybe in fact she was the savior of Hogwarts being a security nightmare.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That said, she certainly created some of her own problems at the school, some of her own security nightmares, probably the top one being her detentions. She literally tortured, physically and mentally, the students at the school.

Andrew and Eric: Yep.

Micah: They have scars to prove it.

Andrew: It’s so disturbing. I just… I’ll never be over that.

Eric: How bad must you be at governing a school and keeping the kids safe that the government needs to step in and send one of their own to do it?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Hogwarts’s reputation was so poor at that moment that literally Dumbledore, one of the smartest wizards of all time, couldn’t talk his way out of getting the government to step in. That’s how bad the situation at Hogwarts had become.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, next one: the Whomping Willow. There’s a massive tree at Hogwarts that can kill you if you approach it. [laughs] I know why it’s there, but maybe…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: This one is on Dumbledore.

Eric: Yes, it is.

Micah: This one is totally… he put it there.

Eric: Yeah, he went through all that trouble of putting the Whomping Willow on the grounds, and then the whole thing with the Shrieking Shack, convincing everyone it was haunted, etc., all for one student. And I love Lupin; y’all know that my AOL screen name was very nearly RemusLupin423@aol.com. But I’m telling you, I don’t know that the risk of the Whomping Willow, for being on the Hogwarts grounds forevermore, was actually worth what it gave one student.

Andrew: Well, here’s the thing. I mean, I think it’s… I get Dumbledore put it there, but I think it’s on Dumbledore because it’s still there. Like, it’s time to take it down. That’s not needed anymore. Or it’s time to petrify it or something.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So it doesn’t… just remove it. Again, we are not for deforestation here on MuggleCast, so how about you just take out the fact that it’s going to… the feature in which it beats people.

Micah: Or move it to the forest.

Laura: I mean, maybe he’s thinking that they might get another student who is a werewolf, so they might need it, right?

Andrew: But come up with a room at Hogwarts where they can go chill. I don’t know.

Laura: Well, and that’s the thing, is we see in Prisoner of Azkaban that Lupin is able to take his potion and just curl up in a room for three days. Why wasn’t that just the way it was handled always?

Eric: Well, the Wolfsbane Potion wasn’t around yet.

Laura: Ah, okay. Well, that makes sense.

Eric: So that is stated. But there’s no reason that can’t exist today. The Whomping Willow does not really need to exist anymore. And then do you guys know what I’m saying when I say drinking bird? It’s those mechanical birds that dip their beak in…

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And it’s on a spring? You could have one of those and magically enchant it and set it up right at the Whomping Willow to push the knot so that it’s always docile.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: So that it’s always just kind of chill. It’s just always like, “Eh, whatever, I’m a willow. It’s cool.” Behaves like a normal willow tree, and then just never remove the bird. [laughs]

Micah: I just think about those poor birds from Prisoner of Azkaban that Alfonso Cuarón added.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Aww. Yeah, Alfonso really pointed out a… I think he was trying to tug at our heartstrings there, make us realize how dangerous Hogwarts is. The avian death count is just way too high.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But here’s another one, and this one stands out. We were just talking about Umbridge and the government needing to intervene? But yeah, poor background checks on teachers. Between Professor Quirrell; Gilderoy Lockhart; Alastor Moody, who was really Barty Crouch, Jr… just poor background checks. Dumbledore does really not seem to be doing the due diligence on these people that he’s bringing in to teach the kids.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Trelawney.

Eric: Some of them you’re lucky if half these teachers didn’t actually serve time in Azkaban, because some of them did. It’s just crazy. For violent crimes, I will say, too, so it’s a big mistake on Dumbledore’s part he doesn’t follow through. Also, the things that do happen at Hogwarts, he doesn’t seem to have the right course of action. Do we know, did he ever investigate the troll coming in? After Quirrell let the troll in at the end of Book 1, was he just so convinced that whoever the culprit was would probably be out by the end of the year because of the DADA curse that he’s like, “I won’t investigate this any further”? There’s just some really weird mixed messaging as far as Dumbledore being desperate for DADA teachers and Dumbledore just willingly bringing people in who are going to harm the students.

Laura: Yeah, it’s such a good point, especially when you consider the fact that there is a commonality between these people. He should be very concerned about anybody who wants to take this job. His first question should be, “What is wrong with you?”

[Andrew and Eric laughs]

Micah: I would just add to this list Trelawney; we know why he hires her. Snape is a questionable hire as well, though he’s very good at his job, but he’s terrible to the students, most of them. And one other which we’ve already talked about, and that’s Hagrid, who is not qualified to do his job.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So it’s not just the DADA. It seems like – and I’d have to go back and do a check on when these other professors were hired – but it seems like it’s possible that McGonagall, Flitwick, and Sprout were all holdovers from Dippet, and Dumbledore just isn’t a good hirer. [laughs]

Andrew: Dumbledore had reasons to hire Hagrid. Getting him back on his feet, clearing his name…

Eric: Right.

Andrew: The thing is, Dumbledore knew the DADA role was cursed, so you need to do extra, extra research into these people that you’re appointing. I don’t know when he figured out it was cursed, but he knew at some point.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. And to the point about hiring and all the other professors, he’s really just stacking the deck and stacking the school with his friends, or with people who are of strategic importance. None of the reasons why Trelawney is at school and actively allowed to still teach classes and teach a young generation of students has nothing to do with the students or the value of education that she can bring them. She’s there because she needs to be protected at all costs from Voldemort.

Laura: So Alohomora. Can we just agree that this is a plot device that just got used way too frequently? Why are so many doors locked at Hogwarts if pretty much all of them can be opened with Alohomora?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, what is the point of a lock if it can so easily be unlocked without the key?

Eric: Wasn’t there a legal precedent where if something’s unlocked, you don’t break in; it’s not breaking and entering? So they have to lock it because there’s a threshold to understand it. I don’t know. But everything security-wise, everything that’s ever meant to be secure in the Harry Potter books is broken into, and the Ministry is twice if you include Cursed Child, via the same method, 17 years apart, or 11 years apart. So there’s really just no regard at all for actual practical safety. If somebody has the will, they will find the way. But it’s seemingly so easy for 11-year-olds to get down into and get the Sorcerer’s Stone. I understand a little bit of favoritism, special circumstances, but I mean, it’s that problem from Sorcerer’s Stone spread out across all seven books. Secure places are not secure. Locked doors do not remain locked up, period.

Andrew: Right. [laughs]

Micah: And especially to get into where Fluffy is! That’s all you have to do?

Andrew: The Fluffy one, that one just… that kills me.

Laura: Yeah. And Dumbledore is just like, “Don’t go there. Just don’t go.”

Andrew: [laughs] Don’t go there, don’t go to the forest…

Eric: “I told them not to go.” He’s wiping his hands of responsibility. Washing his hands.

Andrew: Yeah. When you tell kids to not go somewhere, they’re going to go. They’re going to get curious. You’re tempting them.

Laura: It makes me wonder if that was his plan all along. I could see Dumbledore being like, “I’m going to tell them not to go, and then we’re going to see what happens.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “We’re going to see who the problem children are.” All right, this next one, this is a mental health nightmare: making kids face their boggarts in front of their fellow students with no clue what the boggart might turn out to be. I mean, a lot of these kids are experiencing these creatures for the first time, so they don’t know what’s going to happen. I think it’s just so embarrassing for these kids to have their worst fears exposed.

Eric: The more you know…

Andrew: And then you might be bullied about it for months and years to come.

Eric: Oh yeah, that’s true. That is making the children vulnerable.

Andrew: Yeah, because we have another one here from Melissa. To Melissa’s point, “There’s no anti-bullying initiative” at Hogwarts. “What are the consequences? How are parents involved? How are bullies being made to feel responsible for their actions? Bullies are often going through their own crises. How are they being helped? How are the victims being helped?! All of these students in a school away from their families and not a single mental health professional in the building. It’s outrageous! Poor Neville is going through some real hardships and has no one to talk to.” Yeah, where’s the guidance counselor at Hogwarts? It’s your Head of House; that’s about it, right? And they’re not really doing it.

Micah: I can see Sprout as being a really good guidance counselor Head of House.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: No?

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I figured I’d throw that out there.

Andrew: And McGonagall.

Micah: McGonagall too. Speaking of mental health nightmares, back in Book 3 they thought it would be a great idea – and I understand the Ministry was involved here too – to put Dementors to guard the school from Sirius Black. Soul-sucking creatures that are completely and utterly irrational and have no means of human communication, so if one comes after you, you’re basically screwed.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: They’re there for protection against a wizard who already eluded them to begin with, so what makes them think that they are going to keep him out from what he’s looking to do? I mean, based on everything we just talked about, if this man can break out of Azkaban, he can sure as hell get into Hogwarts.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: Dementors or no Dementors. So I’m just curious… what a brilliant idea to have creatures that keep felonious Dark wizards in check around a bunch of students.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I also…

Micah: Were there no incidents? Sorry, Laura.

Laura: Oh, no, you’re good. I also just wonder, too, how hard did Dumbledore fight this? It just seems like he accepted it. He was like, “Yeah, it’s just not in their nature to be forgiving, so be careful.” It’s the same thing with Fluffy; he’s like, “Ehh, don’t go there.” I think Dumbledore is drunk. I think we have discovered Dumbledore is just drunk throughout the entire series.

Andrew: He’s the real drunk at Hogwarts, not Trelawney. Micah, at the top of this you brought up a good point that the students are really screwed if they encounter these Dementors. It’s hard to cast a Patronus, so they’re not going to be able to fend them off very easily.

Micah: No. And the whole thing is that they think that they can keep the Dementors under control, but we know from incidents that happen throughout Prisoner of Azkaban that that’s not the case. They just float about, do what they do, and you can’t really rationalize with them in any way. So to put these creatures around the school, especially with young kids, that is just a terrible idea. And if you’re a parent, and you hear that Dementors are guarding Hogwarts, what are you thinking?

Andrew: The parent angle, too, is just insane. I mean, parents aren’t notified ever.

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, next one, from Steph: “A room full of ‘lost’ artifacts seems like a pretty huge security nightmare to me, considering no one knows what’s in there and one of the pieces just happened to be a Vanishing Cabinet that, oh I dunno, LET IN DEATH EATERS.” Again, Dumbledore needs a list of everything. The headmaster needs a list of everything that’s in there. “Oh, a Vanishing Cabinet? Hmm, seems like an issue.”

Laura: Well, and also, they know that its sister is in Borgin and Burkes, and they know what sort of clientele is attracted to that store. Why would you allow this item to be inside of what is supposed to be the most secure place in the wizarding world? Give me a break.

Eric: “Oh, it’s busted, so it’s okay. It’s no longer a threat to us.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Montague was in there rattling around in it for a while, and he said, “Oh, yeah, it did sound like it’s working,” and they did no follow up. That’s the thing, again, follow up. Once Montague does show up in Hogwarts, ask him where he’s been and actually do the work of figuring out what cabinet it was and where you were and all that stuff. Nobody really seemed to follow up on that, creating a security nightmare. And I will say, a lot about this stuff, it has to do with there being generations upon generations of students, right? These kids who… first of all, it’s dangerous that they don’t know how to control their magic that they have, that they were born with, so the school is inherently a dangerous place because they’re learning to control it. But then you get these things like the Vanishing Cabinet, where these magical items that are huge security risks just exist in a school like this. And it’s just normal, because this is a school of magic, and so things tucked away in the Room of Requirement could have deadly consequences. But nobody’s doing an inventory of the room of all things inside the Room of Requirement. Nobody’s doing a health and safety check to make sure there aren’t hazards and other things in there. It’s a school of magic.

Micah: It’s a Horcrux hidey-hole, too.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: A Horcrux hidey-hole, yeah. There’s pieces of soul, and that leads directly into the next item here from Melissa: “The restricted section in the library. Some of these books are literally dangerous, and obviously it’s not so hard to get in there as the trio do so multiple times.” You’re right; why are these books there at all? Not just the Horcrux ones.

Andrew: Restricted, unless you have an Invisibility Cloak, then you’re good.

Eric: A cloak, and it’s just supposed to be a teacher’s, what, sign off permission? You need to demonstrate your need or reason for having these books and a teacher can sign off on it. Harry, one of the times, his way into the restrictive section is just to ask Lockhart for his autograph. I mean, it’s just ridiculous!

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: I know Dumbledore removed the Horcrux books, but his way for Hermione to get them was not that secure, either. So it’s just ridiculous.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, these types of allowances for students to access dangerous items, they’re pretty lax. Hermione got a freakin’ Time-Turner when she was 13 because McGonagall was like, “She’s a really good student.”

Micah: Yeah, we forgot about that one altogether. That’s a huge security risk.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: You can screw up the whole world.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Oh, we trust her, though.”

Eric: Listen, they had a talking-to with Hermione, yeah.

Laura: They gave her a stern talking-to. Okay, well, this next one comes from Anthony. Anthony says, “Secret passages that lead from outside of the school grounds (and therefore outside any of the magical fortifications protecting the school) to literally directly inside of the castle. And not only that, but the teachers who are also meant to be protecting the students don’t even know about some of them. The school is hundreds of years old.” Well, I think it’s older than that. “You’d think someone other than the Marauders would’ve drawn up a map detailing the layout to at the very least to educate the staff on all possible exits and entrances.”

Andrew: Yes! At the start of year meeting, Dumbledore should be reminding everybody about all the entrances and exits, especially while Harry is there when there are a lot of threats on the school.

Eric: They probably don’t even have a fire escape plan because they’re relying on their ability to use Aguamenti.

Andrew: [laughs] Right. Or take all that nasty water from the Black Lake and throw it on the school in the event of a fire.

[Laura makes a disgusted sound]

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, where are the fire drills? Where are the Dementor drills? The Death Eater drills? [laughs] Yeah. Okay, next one is from Eleanor. This one kills me too. “The Fat Lady as gatekeeper to the common room, which is presumably intended to help keep the students safe. She gets drunk on duty at one point, she can hardly do her job responsibly then, plus she goes off for chats in other portraits, meaning students can’t get back into their dorm. Slavishness to password system – she prevents Neville from entering the tower because he can’t remember the password, despite clearly knowing who he is and that he should be allowed, leaving him alone in the corridor, including at night.” And while we’re on the subject of passwords, Eleanor says, “Dumbledore’s are clearly too easy to guess. He needs to change it up if he wants decent security on his office!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: His office has so many valuables. Why not have a secure password?

Eric: Well, how many people know Dumbledore the way Harry knows Dumbledore? But still, I agree wholeheartedly with this whole Fat Lady thing. The password system is antiquated. It’s like why your iPhone switched from passwords to face ID, because if you’re a Gryffindor, you get in, period. You don’t need to remember a complicated password or a password that under Sir Cadogan changes every day. There are better ways.

Andrew: Also, Dumbledore’s passwords, they are super simple. If he tried to put those into one of these password manager apps like 1Password or LastPass…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … it would be like, “Yo, this is way too insecure. You need some exclamation points. You need some semicolons. You need uppercase letters, lowercase letters, numbers…”

Eric: The complexity is way too low.

Andrew: Right, you need like, 35 characters. Come on, Dumbledore. I have a more secure password on my… on my…

Eric: Neopets account.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Absolutely. Well, we just talked about the Fat Lady; here’s another one related to portraits. This is from Dodgeball Hero, who says, “The ability for portraits to flit between different places and tell real people about what they see kids doing at school, in all places in the school. Seems creepy!” I agree. Portraits are a huge security nightmare, and one that we don’t talk about often enough.

Andrew: Yeah, they deserve privacy, people. I mean, come on. Look, the students need to be watched over maybe in the Great Hall, in the corridors, but in the common rooms? There shouldn’t be portraits in there staring at them. Dumbledore. Poor Dumbledore always being watched too.

Micah: Or ghosts. Think about ghosts, too. I mean, they can just drop in on you in an inopportune moment.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I mean, Myrtle is in the bath with Harry.

Andrew: [laughs] I shouldn’t laugh; that’s really disturbing.

Micah: All right. Well, Chelsea does a good job putting a bow on this whole discussion. She asks, “The fact that parents are notified of literally nothing. Imagine picking up Hermione at the end of her second year,” and you’re her parent and you say, “How was your year, darling?” To which Hermione replies, “Yeah, not really sure. I spent most of it Petrified in the hospital wing. Also, I accidentally turned into a cat before that and spent a solid month in the hospital wing.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Oh, and there was a giant snake running beneath the school. But it was a great year.”

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: We also know that Hermione does not tell her parents about things, clearly. I mean, we see in the fifth book, she’s supposed to go on a skiing trip with her parents, and she just dips out. She’s like, “Hey, I have some magic stuff to deal with,” and they don’t really seem to ask beyond being disappointed that she’s leaving their family vacation. So Hermione almost has a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy going with her parents. Then she wipes their memories.

Andrew: I think all of our parents would be very concerned if we told them about being in these situations. And I also wonder how many students actually tell their parents what’s going on at the school.

Eric: I don’t know.

Andrew: Because if you brought up a lot of these things, I think they would write to the headmaster.

Laura: Well, Draco clearly does.

Andrew: Yeah, some do.

Micah: How much do you feel Molly and Arthur know? I feel like they know quite a bit, but they also have, like, ten kids at the school. [laughs]

Andrew: And they also went there, so I think that plays into it too. I think they knew what their kids are getting into, whereas Hermione’s parents wouldn’t know.

Micah: I mean, their daughter is taken into the Chamber of Secrets and almost killed by Lord Voldemort.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Spend five more years there! No problem!”

Micah: Yeah, “Go back next year, Ginny. Good luck.”

Andrew: [laughs] Well, I guess it shows that they trust Dumbledore and the professors there? I don’t know. It’s all one big mess. But there’s another question here: Should Hogwarts improve? Or as one person on the website, the Q&A site Quora brought up, are these issues there by design? Because maybe they give students real world practice with what they can encounter, sort of like how it’s argued in the books that they need practical lessons in Defense Against the Dark Arts so they can prepare for the real world. Are all of these dangers in Hogwarts by design, so they’re ready for what’s to come, potentially?

Micah: I think some of them are. But I would go back to the point you raised about why we love the school despite us having this entire conversation about Hogwarts being a security nightmare. I do feel like a lot of these things are what makes Hogwarts fun and interesting to read about. We’re a bit older, so we can reflect on some of these things as definitely being questionable, but I chalk it all up to why the school is just so much fun to read about.

Andrew: [laughs] Keep suffering for our entertainment, kids. Thank you.

Eric: Like I said earlier, I think to some extent there’s always going to be some danger, because these kids who are wielding magic don’t know how to do so safely, but it’s a far cry between that and actively welcoming more danger than would normally be. There’s chaos, but there doesn’t need to be an open invitation for people who would not have the best interest at heart of the students or the school to be brought to the school, and they consistently – and under Dumbledore, repeatedly – are, so it’s a no for me.

Andrew: [laughs] “It’s a no for me.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s going to be a no for me.

Laura: It really does make me wonder – circling back to an earlier point – if to some extent, all of this is intended to be a commentary on boarding school life. I’ve never attended boarding school myself, but I’ve definitely read articles about some of the crazy things that happen at boarding schools, and people continue sending their kids there. So there are definitely real world scandals that break out in these kinds of environments, and I wonder if this is all a subtextual commentary on that.

Micah: Yeah. It’s funny that you say that because it reminds me of two things. One is David Heyman saying he really took this on because it was a reflection for him back to his time at boarding school. So I don’t know what he did at boarding school, but it must have been off the charts.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: The other was the Quizzitch question, Eric, that you had a couple of weeks ago about Tilda Swinton not taking the role of… was it Trelawney?

Eric: I believe so.

Micah: Because she didn’t want to basically glorify boarding school life. So maybe, Laura, to your point, there is something there.

Eric: Maybe real life boarding schools are more dangerous. [laughs]

Laura: If you went to boarding school, please write in.

Andrew: Yeah, let us know.

Micah: Did you poop in the lake?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Was there a Triwizard Tournament? Were there portraits staring at you? Was there a book that can eat you? Okay, so if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, if you have any other security nightmares, please send them in. MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. We would love to collect some more. Maybe we can do another installment of this discussion. You can also record a voice memo; just email that to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Just try to keep your message about a minute long. We love seeing and reading your feedback, and sometimes we include it on air, so please do send it in.


Quizzitch


Andrew: All right, it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: When Harry and Dumbledore Apparate to the cave, what is the first spell Dumbledore uses? The correct answer, you guys, was Lumos!

Andrew: Of course.

Micah: I would have guessed Alohomora.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Maybe he nonverbally said Alohomora, because that makes the most sense. Well, I will say, to a person, you guys, everyone who submitted answers did so via the new Quizzitch form on MuggleCast’s website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. We only got one complaint from our leaving Twitter, and it was from Time-Traveling Unicorn, who says in all caps, “I LITERALLY GOT A TWITTER ACCOUNT TO PLAY #QUIZZITCH. WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE?”

Andrew: [laughs] Well, look…

Micah: Yeah, Eric, what is this nonsense?

Andrew: Twitter’s a hellscape, so now you can leave it again. It’s for the best.

Eric: [laughs] That same person’s bio says, “Came for the Twitter games, stayed for the energy,” so they’ve decided to keep on Twitter even though Quizzitch is no longer found there.

Andrew: Okay. All right.

Eric: And they submitted; they’re one of these winners, so… awesome. Thank you for making the transition. Thank you, everybody, for humoring me and allowing us to consolidate all of our submissions on the MuggleCast website, slash Quizzitch. Up at the top menu, just click it. Correct answers were submitted by Ali, Ann, Billy, Ciara, Crillyc, Dilesh, Elizabeth, Ellen, Gussy, Jude, Katalin, Katie, Kelly, Michelle, Nadia, Ning, Phlaym, Romina, Sabrina, SavyAllen, Shyam, Snuffles69, Stefanie Dee, Suhas, Tara, and Tuesday. Next week’s question: After Neville falls off his broom in year one, who tells Malfoy to shut up? Submit your answer to us via the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: Great. So to wrap up here, a couple reminders. We would appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast; thank you in advance. Also, follow us on social media. We’re @MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, and LinkedIn, too, and YouTube. Really, we’re everywhere. You can also join our community of listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get early access to MuggleCast. You get ad-free MuggleCast. You get access to our planning docs, our weekly livestream; you can tune in and hear us record each episode live. We also banter before the show begins and a little bit after as well, so you really get a behind-the-scenes look at the making of MuggleCast. You also get bonus MuggleCast installments, a new physical gift every year… you get these benefits depending on which level you pledge at. And we have a new AMA benefit for our Slug Club level patrons; once a month, one of the four MuggleCasters will be recording an Ask Me Anything video, and I think sometime this summer, we will also do a group one as well, so that’ll be fun and change up the dynamic. Thank you for listening to today’s episode. We hope you enjoyed this major look at every single security nightmare at Hogwarts.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody!

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

[Andrew makes a siren sound]

Transcript #500

 

MuggleCast 500 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #500, The Best Harry Potter Pick-Up Lines, Popular Head Cannon Ships


Show Intro: MuggleCast by the numbers


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom, and this is Episode 500!

[Andrew, Eric Scull, and Laura Tee make celebration noises]

Micah Tannenbaum: Love the sound effects, guys.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yes, this is a milestone episode of MuggleCast, and we’re going to celebrate today by reviewing the show by the numbers. And then we’re going to get you ready for Valentine’s Day; we’re going to share our favorite Harry Potter-themed pickup lines, and we’re also going to play a couple of games as well, so today’s theme…

Eric: I love the way you said that; you kind of slowed down the way you were talking there, Andrew, like, “Yeeeah, pickup lines.”

Andrew: Well, that’s my hint to y’all. Everybody should present these, deliver these, in a sexy way for Valentine’s Day.

Micah: No problem, Andrew.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Micah has the sexiest voice in podcasting. We’ve established this over the years for sure. So yeah, let’s look at MuggleCast by the numbers. We have the number 118; that’s the number of times Umbridge sucked during our show’s history.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Not enough.

Micah: What a way to start the list.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: 2,356; that’s the number of people who have pledged to our Patreon over its lifetime.

Laura: Wow. That’s amazing.

Andrew: Thank you, listeners, for doing that. It’s a pretty incredible number.

Laura: You guys rock.

Eric: This is the fifth year of our Patreon, you guys. We started it five years ago and like, a week.

Andrew: And like I said during 499, it’s only because of our Patreon that we are at Episode 500 today.

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: 43,722; now, we’ve already posted this one on social media, and some people were guessing this is the number of minutes of MuggleCast.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: But that’s not true. This is the number of emails we’ve received from listeners since November 2006, so a lot of feedback. [laughs]

Laura and Micah: Wow.

Micah: I’ve responded to all of them.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I was going to say, should we each take 8,000 and start replying to people? Is this unread? This is read? What is this?

Andrew: No, this is all. This is everything.

Eric: Oh, okay, okay.

Andrew: Yeah, we’ve had MuggleCast@gmail.com since November 2006. And we’ve never deleted a single email, so they’re all in there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: We should for fun some day just go back into the inbox and go to like, June 2007, and see what people were emailing us about, and then read those emails on air and finally answer them.

Micah: That’s a great idea. I think in our next mailbag episode, we should pull one from way back, and we should answer it. Legit.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, let’s do that every month, every time we do a Muggle Mail episode. “And now, an email we never got to 13 years ago.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Love it.

Andrew: Okay, next number: tens of millions. [laughs]

Eric: Wow, that’s a strict number there. Very specific.

Andrew: This is the number of downloads MuggleCast has received over the years. We don’t have an exact number because MuggleCast has been hosted on numerous platforms over the years, and we don’t have access to all those platforms anymore. But it’s safe to say… I know just on our current platform we’ve had well over 10 million downloads, and during MuggleCast’s most popular years, we’ve probably reached over 100 million downloads at this point, I would think.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: I’m just thinking back to Episode 100 that you all did in London. And I don’t remember whether it was that episode or 101, which was the analysis of Deathly Hallows episode. This was back when it was first released: It had over 100,000 downloads.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: And I can only imagine what they have now.

Andrew: Well, because think about that period of time. It was really before social media blew up, so you could discuss the book on MuggleNet, but where were you getting really fun reactions to the book? MuggleCast and other Harry Potter podcasts were a great resource at that time.

Eric: You’re right, there wasn’t… I mean, I don’t think there were YouTube channels the way there are YouTube channels today.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Certainly not by any of the major, like, BuzzFeed or even Nerdist. Yeah, I think that we really covered a lot of that ground for people.

Andrew: Yeah. 773. What number is this, Eric?

Eric: [laughs] It’s an area code in Chicago, Illinois.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: 773 is the number of times that we said the word “pickle” on MuggleCast in the episodes that we have transcripts for.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Of course, this count is always going up. I would actually guess… I mean, I think, Andrew, you’re right; it probably diminished after Pickle Pack was a thing. We probably stopped saying it so many times after that.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But we keep saying it. Eventually we’ll get “pickle” to the same tens of millions number.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You’re at least at 776 right now, Eric.

Eric: Exactly. Pickle, pickle, pickle, pickle…

Micah: It’s just funny that we chose the word “pickle,” versus “Harry” or “Hogwarts” or “magic.”

Andrew: But pickle was a running joke on the show; that’s why I thought it was a good one.

Micah: I know.

Laura: Yeah, I do wonder, of the 773, how many of these are instances of Andrew saying, “Hello, Potter Pickles”?

Andrew: [laughs] Once, maybe twice.

Laura: Eh…

Eric: Well, the very first one… so if anyone wants to listen to Episode 54 of MuggleCast, that was the one where Andrew stunned the world by calling us all pickles. And it’s right at the beginning of this show, so that’s how you can figure it out.

Micah: And I don’t know if people know this, but since we’re talking about Pickle Pack, Andrew really created the precursor to Patreon way before its time.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Thanks for giving me credit again. I don’t know if I was really the one who came up with the idea for Pickle Pack, but I’ll take the credit, sure.

Micah: Just run with it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: How much was it? Was it $25 for one year?

Andrew: $30.

Eric: It was $30, okay. It was $30 a year; we had over 140 people do that, right?

Andrew: Probably even more, no? But yeah, that was our membership to MuggleCast. And we did video blogs there, we sent everybody a T-shirt, a letter; I’m sure we posted other things. We had a special site, PicklePack.com, and you logged into it. We did a great job on that. That was ahead of its time.

Eric: I wish we hadn’t password protected it because I can’t get into it on the Wayback Machine. I really want to see it.

Andrew: Ohh.

Laura: I hope that my blogs are banished into the abyss, because I just feel like it would be so cringy to look back on that.

Micah: Laura, your blickles.

Laura: My blickles, excuse me. My blickles.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I have old hard drives with some of the blickles.

[Laura groans]

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Burn them.

Eric: I’ve debated putting them up on Patreon for the last five years. I still haven’t done it because they are cringe. They’re bad.

Andrew: You should post one. I think people would be interested.

Eric: I’ll find one of the better ones, yeah.

Andrew: All right. Next number: 1,000… no, 151… 151,384. I don’t know how to say big numbers.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Apparently.

Andrew: God help us once we hit Episode 100,000. The number of followers across social media.

Eric: Did you remember to include our LinkedIn?

Andrew: [laughs] No, I didn’t.

Eric: So the number is even higher.

Micah: 151,385.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Micah, thank you for connecting with us on LinkedIn.

Andrew: We have 191 followers there, so hold on… 151,384 plus 191. Okay, updated number: 151,575. That’s the number of followers on social media.

Micah: Did you include YouTube?

Andrew: Oh, no. Darn it!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Did you include Parlor?

Andrew: [laughs] Nope. I can’t access that number because it is shut down.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay, plus 786 on YouTube. So that’s 152,361. Any others?

Micah: No, we’re good. MySpace?

Eric: This is just a rundown for the listeners of all the places that we are on social media. The MuggleCast YouTube, for instance, has things you’ve never seen before.

Andrew: Actually, MySpace is a good one, Micah. I don’t know if you can access that anymore, but I bet we had a lot of followers on MySpace back in the day.

Micah: Yeah, because that was really what was around at the time, right? I mean, Facebook was, but Twitter was just coming online, and then obviously, Instagram much later. But I do wonder what our following would have been like if these platforms had existed in full back when we were in our heyday.

Andrew: Probably much, much larger.

Micah: Millions.

Andrew: Yeah. I know we had at least one friend on MySpace; that was Myspace Tom. Miss that guy.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: He’s on Twitter now?

Andrew: Is he? Okay, I’m just going to add one to our number of followers in tribute to Tom. So the grand total is 152,362. All right, zero! That’s the number of times the author of Harry Potter has been on the show.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Sad, but also not crazy sad anymore.

Laura: Eh, yeah, it’s fine.

Micah: We have had authors on the show, in fairness; just not that author.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes. All right, so this next one, I want y’all to guess: the number of minutes of MuggleCast.

Laura: Okay, I have a question. Is this all MuggleCast ever? Or is it only core episodes?

Andrew: I’m focused on core episodes only. I deleted the minis and the LeakyMugs from my playlist to calculate this total.

Laura: Okay. I’m going to say 50,000.

Eric: I just did a little bit of math. 500 episodes, and I guess the average is about 78 minutes, or an hour and 18, so I’m saying 39,000.

Micah: I’m going to go in the 40s. I’ll go 45,000.

Andrew: All right, well, if we’re playing Price Is Right rules, you all lose because you all went over the tally I have.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: But Eric was very close: 38,079 minutes. That’s over 26 days, if you played them start to finish.

Eric: Well, speaking of big projects, we actually solicited… so not for the first but the second time, we asked listeners – specifically our patrons, this time – to help us with the biggest project of them all, which was to go through… so we’ve released these next statistics one time before; it was either for Episode 250 or 300 or something like that. But we actually had listeners and patrons listen to our episodes and tell us who among the hosts was on each episode.

Andrew: Whoever is number one gets three months off.

Eric: [laughs] That would allow the rest of us to catch up, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, there you go.

Eric: [laughs] The award for near perfect attendance coming in at… now, this includes today, because I just went and updated the spreadsheet when we started recording. But then for the most attendance, Andrew Sims at 479 episodes of MuggleCast.

Andrew: Woohoo! Thank you, thank you. Thank you to myself for having plenty of time on my hands to rarely miss an episode of the show.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, think about that, though. That’s over 16 years. You were only not here for 21 recorded episodes of MuggleCast, and the rest of us, it’s not close. It’s crazy.

Andrew: I did have, like, a ten episode head start compared to y’all.

Eric: Oh, that’s true.

Andrew: So what are the other numbers here?

Eric: Okay, well… yeah, I will say, too, that is just superb. And in many of the times when you missed an episode, you still edited that episode.

Andrew: You know, my dedication to the show just knows no bounds.

Eric: [laughs] Well, coming in next is just really the most consistent dude who’s not Andrew, and it’s not me; it is Micah. Micah came in at 429 episodes of MuggleCast.

Andrew: Congratulations, Micah.

Laura: Well done.

Micah: Thank you.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, through thick and thin, you were just always there. When the rest of us were galavanting around New Zealand and missing episodes left and right…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: … you could be counted on.

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: So I have a year on everybody else, because there’s a gap of what, 60 episodes, it sounds like? Dang.

Micah: Well, one thing I think we should just take into consideration here – and I appreciate being the runner-up, but the runner-up is just the first loser, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Andrew, he’s coming for you.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No, the one thing I will say is, it was mentioned that not all of us were there at the very beginning. And not only that, we used to rotate hosts early on.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: Whereas I believe…

Andrew: Except for me, apparently.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: No, but you, Ben, and Kevin usually were always on the episode, from what I remember.

Eric: That tracks, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, okay, okay. I’m sorry, y’all. But yeah, we did have a panel of seven at one point, I think, so we really needed to rotate everybody out. It was just too big of a panel.

Laura: Oh, yeah. And I remember when we tried to have everyone on, it was just a disaster.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And an editing nightmare, so I’m glad.

Micah: We used to put a little period into Skype or something like that. Remember that?

Andrew: What?

Laura: Oh yeah, when it was your turn to talk!

Micah: When you wanted to talk.

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah. And then wasn’t it…? Ben renamed me to “Douche,” so then it said “Douche said period.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That sounds like him.

Micah: Not surprising.

Eric: Old trauma gets relived.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, Micah, you did us no favors by framing the runner-up as the next loser because I’m going to keep going and…

Micah: The first loser. The first.

Eric: The first loser. Yeah, okay. The second loser, then, the next runner-up, is me. You guys, this is my 400th episode of MuggleCast.

Andrew Oh, wow. What beautiful timing.

Eric: Beautiful timing. So I’ve been on 80% of all episodes. I’m thrilled to be here.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And just behind me…

Laura: The third loser.

Eric: … at 238 episodes is Laura.

Laura: Yeah, I quit for several years and then came back.

Andrew: Quit’s not the right word. You were off on other adventures.

Laura: Well, yeah. I graduated and I was like, “Oh, I’m moving to Costa Rica. I’m not going to be able… I’m going to be teaching; I’m just not going to have the time for podcasting.” So I think I emailed you, Andrew, and I was like, “I think I’m going to have to bow out of everything.” It was a sad day.

Andrew: Yeah, that was a dark time. Yeah, I missed seeing Laura’s periods in the Skype chat.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The show lost its voice of reason.

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Micah: It lost its direction.

Eric: Yeah. Well, it was about 100 episodes ago that Laura became permanent again.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: So congrats, Laura. And then here’s some other fun numbers because we’re now getting into the territory of hosts that are no longer regular on the show. So the next highest numbers are Ben Schoen has 98 episodes; Jamie just behind him at 87; Kevin’s been on 54 episodes; oh, Matt Britton is right in there, 72 episodes for Matt; and then Mikey B. at 36 episodes; and Elysa at 14.

Andrew: All right. Wow. Well, I’m going to be off for the next year to give you guys a chance to catch up.

[Eric laughs]


Game: Finish the episode title


Andrew: All right, so we have another game here related to the history of the show. Eric, you were looking back at the episode titles, right?

Eric: Yeah, part of the fun of doing this spreadsheet was I actually did the listeners a favor this time and I went and put the episodes in. Originally, when we first sourced this, I did the episode number; I said, “Give me the episode title as well as when it came out.” I did that work this time with Meg. But so I have these old episode titles and I want to quiz you guys on what you think the correct title of MuggleCast was. Episode title one: “His Mother’s ______.” Your choices are “His Mother’s Eyes,” “His Mother’s Hair,” “His Mother’s Makeup,” “His Mother’s Ankles.”

Andrew: Yeah, and I’ll just add, we had some really weird episode titles back in the day. That’s part of the fun of this segment. We don’t do this anymore because for potential new listeners or current listeners, you’re looking at these and you’re like, “I have no clue what this is about. Why do I want to listen to this?”

Eric: Yeah, none of the episode titles that I found fun enough to pull are from after 402. I didn’t even leave the 400s.

Andrew: That’s when we changed, okay.

Micah: It’s all about the SEO, right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly, exactly. All right, so I’m going to say “His Mother’s Ankles,” because “His Mother’s Eyes” is too serious. We were probably trying to have fun, so I’m saying “Ankles.”

Laura: Yeah, it’s funny because I feel a strong sense that the answer is “Ankles.”

Eric: Well, that’s the thing; it’s dormant. It’s in our repressed memory. [laughs]

Micah: Exactly. I’m going to agree; I’m going to go with D, “Ankles.”

Eric: You guys are all correct.

Andrew: Woohoo! It’s like one of us wrote it.

Micah: One of us probably did.

Eric: Well, yeah. This is Episode 032. Episode 32.

Laura: What happened in this episode to make us call it this?

Micah: I’m going to say Ben or Jamie and just leave it at that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Okay, next one: “Order of ______.” Is it “Fries,” “Order of Micah,” “Order of Toast,” and “Order of Canon”?

Andrew: I’m going to say “Fries.” We were probably talking about Order of the Phoenix and somebody accidentally said fries or something.

Micah: I’m going with the “Order of Micah.”

Laura: Yeah, I have a strong sense that it’s “Micah.”

Andrew: The Force is strong with Laura this morning. Or is it?

Eric: Yep, it sure is. It’s “Order of Micah.”

Andrew: Wow, okay.

Eric: Yeah, that’s Episode 211.

Laura: Look at all these repressed memories coming back.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Okay, next title: “______ 2009.” Is it “Azkatraz 2009,” “Cascada 2009…”

Micah: Jesus.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “Best of 2009…” We had some functional titles even back then. Best of, Year in Review… or “BobFail 2009”?

Micah: [laughs] I’m going with “BobFail.”

Andrew: Yeah, I’m pretty sure it was “BobFail.”

Eric: It’s too random; I wouldn’t have come up with that alone. [laughs] Do you guys remember why “BobFail”?

Andrew: Was there a Bob on the set of one of the movies?

Eric: I think so.

Andrew: And we were like, “That’s a Bob fail.” It says in the shownotes, “The term BobFail is created on the show as Micah tells the story of putting a USA Today writer in his place.”

Micah: What?

Andrew: So maybe a USA Today writer wrote something incorrect about a Harry Potter movie or book?

Micah: I do not remember doing that, but nice. I’ll have to go back and listen.

Eric: Okay, next title: “Fluffy and the ______.” “Fluffy and the Hydrant,” “Fluffy and the Pokéflute,” “Fluffy and the Sax Solo,” and “Fluffy and the Pillow”?

Andrew: I think it’s B.

Laura: It’s the “Pokéflute.”

Micah: “Pokéflute,” yeah.

Eric: Of course it’s the “Pokéflute.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Well, the reason I remember that is because I want to say that we made comparisons to Snorlax and waking Fluffy up the way you wake Snorlax up.

Andrew: Definitely.

Eric: Quite apt. This is a hard one intentionally: “Spiders, Vampires, ______, and Wizards.” Kind of a long title.

Andrew: This is a hard one.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know.

Eric: Yeah. Is it “Books,” “Lords,” “Werewolves,” or “Centaurs”?

Andrew: I’m going to say “Werewolves.”

Micah: I’ll go with…

Laura: I’ll do “Centaurs.”

Micah: “Centaurs,” yeah.

Eric: Wow. Okay, we’re all wrong.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: All right. Finally.

Eric: The correct answer… and Laura and Micah were on this episode. I checked.

Laura: So we should remember. [laughs]

Andrew: No excuses, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, it’s Episode 139. I was not on it; I can’t say why it’s called that. But “Spiders, Vampires, Lords, and Wizards” was the correct title.

Andrew: Okay, no clue why it was titled that.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I’m glad that… well, you probably discussed, you know, creepy things.

Andrew: I guess so.

Eric: Like lords.

Laura: And it sounds like we were trying to come up with a more serious title.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It was the beginning of search engine optimization. “What can we do?” Okay, second to last game round: “Midnight ______.” “Midnight Son,” “Midnight Spells,” “Midnight Squib,” “Midnight Serenade”?

Andrew: I’m going to say “Son,” S-O-N. Maybe it was a Twilight reference to Midnight Sun, S-U-N?

Micah: I’m going to say “Squib.”

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I’m drawn to as well, and I don’t know why.

Eric: Well, it’s right. “Midnight Squib,” Episode 263.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: You guys are good at this game.

Laura: It’s because we know ourselves. We’re looking back 15 years ago and thinking about what we thought was funny at the time.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, I mean, that was March 27, 2013, so eight years ago.

Laura: Oh, I wasn’t even on that then! How do I know this?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: But you still know us well.

Eric: Yeah, it was Andrew, Ben, me, and Micah. Okay, so this next one and the last one; round seven of this game. “Laura” has appeared in the title of MuggleCast episodes multiple times, so the question now is: Which one of these is not a MuggleCast title? So the title is “Laura ______.” Which one is it not? “Laura’s Questions,” “Laura’s Pants,” “Laura Leaves,” and “Laura Gambon.”

Laura: Okay, so we all know, yeah, “Laura’s Pants” is real. I’m pretty sure “Laura Gambon” is real?

Micah: Yeah, I think so.

Laura: I’ve been the staunch defender of Michael Gambon for years.

Andrew: And we were like, [in an obnoxious voice] “Why don’t you marry him?” Probably.

Laura: Yeah, and I was like, “Okay!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I don’t know.

Micah: I’m going to say C…

Andrew: “Laura Leaves”?

Micah: … because I don’t know that we’d be as direct to be like, “Laura’s gone.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Laura’s Questions” rings a bell for me, too, so I’m going to say “Leaves” as well.

Laura: Yeah. I also just feel like that would be such a weird title. So yeah, I think it was C.

Eric: Well, I actually just looked this up, and the last major episode you were on before big hiatus was 187, “Magic Is Muscle,” or 181, “Nothing Less than Ultimate.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: These titles are not any less weird than “Laura Leaves.” But anyway, yes. So Episode 79 of MuggleCast is “Laura Gambon.” Episode 97 is “Laura’s Pants.” There’s actually “Laura’s Pants, Part 2” like, 100 episodes later.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: And 115 is “Laura’s Questions.” We did not have an episode titled “Laura Leaves,” and I’ll tell you what, I pray to God that we never do.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Aww, shucks.

Micah: That was fun.

Andrew: All right, so a bit of news before we get to some Valentine’s Day-related content. Just wanted to mention that Fantastic Beasts 3 has actually paused filming again, after a cast member tested positive for COVID. Now, interestingly, they were seemingly only a couple days away from finishing. And there’s rumors that it may have been an actual cast member, and maybe a prominent cast member, who tested positive for COVID. It’s kind of crazy that they were so close to finishing filming, and then had the pause. So now the movie is going to be pushed back another year.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: August 2025.

Micah: This is their lost episode.


Potter Pickup Lines


Andrew: So now that we’re approaching Valentine’s Day, we thought we could have a little fun and get people ready for the Hallmark holiday. Maybe your loved one is really into Harry Potter, or maybe you want to meet somebody who loves Harry Potter as much as you do. And how do you do that? You prepare some Harry Potter pickup lines. We found our favorites. If you like any of these, feel free to write them down. But I’m going to set the mood first.

[Sensual mood music plays]

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: You must be a Snitch, because I’ve been Seeking you my whole life.

Laura: Ooh, yeah.

Micah: Well, you must play Quidditch. I know a Keeper when I see one.

Laura: You’re what Amortentia smells like to me.

Eric: You know, you don’t have to say “Lumos” to turn me on.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Did you just use the Stupefy charm? Or are you a natural stunner?

Micah: Are you a Dementor? Because you take my breath away.

Laura: Baby, are you a Horcrux? Because you’ve got a piece of my soul.

Eric: You don’t need Expelliarmus; your smile is disarming enough.

Andrew: I am very interested in exploring your Chamber of Secrets.

Laura: Oh my God.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: What?

Micah: Well done.

Eric: I knew that had to be in there somewhere.

Laura: Yeah, I know. It’s just, that’s a throwback.

Andrew: That’s the mild version of that.

Micah: Yeah, it really is.

Eric: The other one is, what, “Mind if I Slytherin?”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Basilisk, yeah. Is this the Hogwarts Express? Because it feels like you and I are headed somewhere magical.

Laura: On a scale of one to ten, you’re nine and three quarters.

Andrew: If I heard that one, I’d be like, “What is stopping you from calling me…?”

Eric: “What can I do for that other one quarter?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: It’s one of those pickup lines that’s like, lightly insulting.

Andrew: [laughs] Is it?

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Eric: When I look into the Mirror of Erised, I see you giving me your number.

Andrew: My love for you burns like a dying phoenix.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: If I wear my Invisibility Cloak, could I visit your Restricted Section tonight?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Girl, you’re finer than the difference between a hex and a curse.

Eric: I need a happy memory to conjure a Patronus. Will you kiss me real quick?

Andrew: You may be a Muggle, but mm, that body is magical.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Hagrid is not the only giant on campus, if you catch my drift.

Andrew: I like the extra “if you catch my drift.” [laughs] Like, yeah, we definitely know where you’re going with that.

Eric: Yeah, we got it. We got it. And this episode now has an R rating, thank you very much.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I may not be the Boy Who Lived, but I can still be your Chosen One.

Eric: Aw, you said that all hopeful at the end there.

Laura: I tried to pick G-rated items because I knew you guys were going to get dirty.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Me too. You know, when I said “Accio hottie,” I didn’t think it would actually work.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Girl, are you a Death Eater? Because Azka-DAMN!

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, we do try to be family friendly on the show when I was looking for pickup lines. Oh my gosh, there are some hilarious ones that are really inappropriate. Maybe another time we’ll do those.

Eric: Maybe bonus MuggleCast.

Laura: Yeah, behind the paywall.

[Sensual mood music ends]


Discussion: Popular headcanon ships


Laura: Well, I thought that we could, in recognition of Valentine’s Day, talk about some of the most popular alternate universe or headcanon Harry Potter ships. A ship refers to a relationship. This is very big in the fan fiction community; if you’re sorting through different original stories, you can look based on the ship. And I picked a few of the most popular ones for us to talk about, but I thought that we could consider them and think about where in the series their turning point could have been to actually make these relationships a reality.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I love this.

Laura: So we’re going to start with Drarry, Draco and Harry. This is one of the most popular ones.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: On its face, it definitely seems like one that is kind of hard to imagine, because you’re…

Andrew: How dare you?

Laura: [laughs] What do you mean, how dare me?

Andrew: No, no.

Laura: Because Draco is really horrible to Harry throughout the series.

Eric: Yeah, they hate each other.

Laura: Yeah, they hate each other! But you know what they say, thin line between love and hate, I guess.

Eric: And opposites attract and any number of used phrases.

Laura: Something that I’ve seen represented in some fan fiction is Harry developing more of an awareness that Draco is just another victim of the wizarding war, and we definitely see this in the books. But I think that this represents how a turning point for Harry and Draco could be Harry realizing at the end of Half-Blood Prince that he actually doesn’t have the capacity to kill anyone, and he’s just in way over his head. And then also, Draco refusing to turn Harry over in Deathly Hallows, even though he knew it was him.

Andrew: Something I’m also thinking about is especially in the later books, Draco is having a rough time killing Dumbledore, that little thing, and then doing what Voldemort and his father want him to do. And I actually think in a weird way, him and Harry could bond over their struggles.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Draco wants to be a good guy. At the end of the day, he does get redeemed, and that redemption maybe could have started a little sooner with the help of Harry.

Laura: It feels like Draco doesn’t quite get the redemption arc that I think some people were hoping he was going to get. I mean, we see that he and Harry nod at each other in acknowledgement at King’s Cross in the epilogue, but there’s never a moment of true sort of acknowledgement, I guess, until Cursed Child when Drake is teaming up with the trio.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s only so much acknowledgement you can have and self-awareness at 17, so the only time they were going to get it was at the epilogue. But I think Draco, after the events of Book 7, would have realized how much of a shit he was to Harry and may have shown up and apologized in a big way.

Laura: I would hope so.

Eric: It was fan fiction that really convinced me that this ship was plausible and had merit, even within the years of Hogwarts that they’re dating. There’s some good Drarry fic out there.

Micah: I like, Andrew, what you said about them bonding over their circumstances, particularly as it relates to Voldemort. I mean, Draco is being used by Voldemort, and then Harry obviously has a fight ahead of him against Voldemort, so the two of them could have potentially worked together. And then Laura, you mentioned the saving him in Deathly Hallows. If he doesn’t, Draco probably dies in that room.

Andrew: Yeah, 100%.

Micah: So I mean, a whole saving each other thing; Narcissa saves Harry at the end of Deathly Hallows, so there’s a lot for them to talk about.

Andrew: After Harry saved Draco, Draco could have been like, “On a scale of one to ten, you’re a nine and three quarters.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: I will say, there’s a lot of fan fiction where after Hogwarts… because there’s also a thing about only having of age characters, too, in fanfic, so a lot of it is placed after Hogwarts. But there’s a lot of fanfic where Harry goes to America and he’s in a Starbucks and he recognizes the server, the barista, and it’s Draco.

Andrew: [laughs] What? What?

Laura: I have never read this fan fiction. [laughs]

Andrew: Give me one of those.

Eric: Absolutely a thing, yeah.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: So as part of his redemption arc, Draco is like, “I’m going to go work a Muggle service industry job”?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I guess so.

Andrew: Oh my gosh. Sign me up.

Laura: I mean, I would read this.

Eric: Because it’s the love in unexpected places, right? So Harry is on a work trip or something and then he’s like, “Oh, Draco, I haven’t thought about you in years. What have you been up to?”

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Yeah. I think also, something like this could be interesting because it does speak to, I think, what is something that’s really common for all of us, which is that everyone grows up, including our childhood bullies. I don’t know if anyone’s ever run into a high school bully, now 15 years after we’ve all been out of school, and realize, “Oh, they’re pretty much just a normal human being at this point.” So it speaks to the ability of growth and improvement.

Eric: It’s kind of like they survived Hogwarts together, because Hogwarts itself is such a security nightmare.

Laura: And they’re like, “Let’s send our kids there.”

Eric: [laughs] It’s still the only school. It’s the best education they’re going to get.

Laura: Right. So moving on to this one – and I’m going to be honest with you, this is one that I’ve really never gotten, but I don’t want to disparage it because I know that there are people who have feelings about it – Dramione, Draco/Hermione. This is one that I always found it hard to get on board with, just because not only does he bully her, but he uses blood status slurs against her. And it’s just really hard for me to see how, at least in a school setting, these two would be able to get past that. Not to say it couldn’t happen, but…

Eric: Yeah. Again, they hate each other, right? So it’s like, “How are these two things…?” I will say, I’ve said this before, and I think there’s some kind of understanding that Draco and Hermione are nearly equals academically. I think it’s based on that line Lucius says to Draco in Borgin and Burke about “You let this Muggle-born girl exceed you in academia, in your tests,” but if that’s true, then Draco is actually probably a hardworking student, and so there’s a line of similarity between the two of them. He is certainly a git, he is certainly very vile, actually, with his criticisms, but I can see it working, especially in the way that fanfic takes it. They kind of… I don’t want to say they gloss over it, but he kind of ends up being a more charismatic, rich, sassy Ron character. He’s wittier than Ron, he’s higher-class than Ron, and so his sarcasm and his insults are seen as having more weight and being more playful, kind of the way that you throw rocks at the girl you love kind of a thing. That’s the Draco/Hermione thing for me.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I do think Draco is a very smart kid; it’s just not highlighted much in the books because other elements of him have to be focused on. So I can see Draco and Hermione getting along from an academic perspective. [laughs] “Hey, this NEWT class, am I right?”

Eric: Study buddies.

Andrew: Study buddies, yeah.

Micah: Do you think, though, a lot of that pairing was born out of the films versus the books? Or was it always there? Laura may know.

Laura: So there are definitely a lot of influence from before the movies in the fan fiction community for this one. There’s also a lot of influence for Snape and Hermione from pre-movies, which is very uncomfortable, and why it was not included in this list. But I think that these pairings speak to maybe some taboos. And also, perhaps the Hermione and Draco pairing specifically speaks to people trying to give Draco his redemption arc through a relationship with Hermione, which I don’t love because it’s not her job to save him.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Laura: That’s his job. But I get it; I understand why it exists. And I would love to hear from some Dramione shippers to tell us a little more about this, because I’m sure it’s more than just that.

Micah: There’s always that angle, though, too, right, of the girl being with the bad boy, but Draco isn’t really the bad boy; he’s just kind of a douche.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: Well, I mean, if they were adults and this was modern day, we’d be like, “Oh, honey, he called you a racial slur? No, you gotta dump it. Don’t even effs with that. You’re much better.” But actually, no, I remember this; I saw Emma Watson actually had a crush on Tom Felton when they were filming the first couple of movies.

Micah: That’s why I asked about the movie piece.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: She revealed on The Jonathan Ross Show; she says she had a big crush on Tom Felton when she was a preteen. Here’s a quote: “Between the ages of 10 and 12, I had a really terrible crush on Tom Felton. We love a bad guy, and he was a few years older, and he had a skateboard.”

Andrew: Ooh, a skateboard!

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, you know what, though? These people were all pre-adolescent and growing up together, so I’m sure they all had crushes on each other at some point.

Andrew: True.

Eric: Yeah, I agree.

Laura: Speaking of one that I think… it did exist pre-movies, but I think the movies really exaggerated its influence: Harmony, which is Harry/Hermione. Obviously, in the movies, they picked up on something that could have been possible when Harry and Hermione were living alone in the tent, which, I’m not mad at it, but it definitely felt more like they were picking up on the strong chemistry that Dan and Emma had as opposed to this really being a Harry and Hermione thing.

Eric: Yeah. And I think when you read the books, you really start to love Hermione, and I think that depending on how you read the books and how you see Ron’s character, you want her to end up with somebody better than Ron, and so Harry is right there. And in this friend group, I think people just developed a preference, and if they weren’t as sympathetic to Ron seeing how he just needed some support and was really funny, you put her with Harry instead as you’re reading the books for the first time. Let’s not forget…

Andrew: Plus, the assumption as a reader was always that Hermione was going to end up either with Harry or Ron. I think that was always a safe bet. So like you said, Eric, it was personal preference. And there weren’t hints very strongly either way, I don’t think. It was just kind of a coin toss.

Laura: There were pretty strong hints with Ron and Hermione. That was…

Andrew: Early on? Well, maybe in the later books.

Eric: Well, the Yule Ball, right? She says, “Next time muster up the courage to ask me yourself.”

Laura: Yeah, that was the first big one. And just honestly – and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, or if other people feel differently, if you have different interpretations – but I just genuinely, in the original source material of these books, I never got a vibe that there was any interest between these two. Not to say that there aren’t ways that you could make that work in fan fiction; I definitely think that you can. And I think it’s a valid pairing for people to like, just because Harry and Hermione do have so much in common; they’re both pretty mature, and they showed in Book 7 how well they can work together, right? So I think you can make the argument that these two would maybe have a healthier relationship than Ron and Hermione.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And I’m trying to remember, what movie is it where Harry is having a conversation with Dumbledore about Hermione? Dumbledore brings her up and he basically passes on it and just says, “Oh, we’re friends,” or “She’s like a sister,” or something to that effect.

Eric: I think it’s Movie 6. I think he’s like, “Oh, well, that Granger girl I’ve seen you with,” and he’s like, “No, sir.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because wasn’t there a line…? That was how we found that Dumbledore was gay, or Steve Kloves found it out first because there was this line where they were going to have Michael Gambon talk to Harry about girls, and then Rowling had to be like, “Oh, actually, guys…”

Andrew: Oh yeah, right.

Eric: So they knew before it actually came out. Before Dumbledore came out. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. I’m pretty sure there’s a photo of the note that Rowling made on the script.

Laura: Oh, really? To be honest, I don’t see why Dumbledore wouldn’t be able to talk to Harry about girls.

Eric: Like general aesthetic attraction, or…

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I give Laura girl advice all the time. All the time.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I mean, it’s true. [laughs]

Micah: The one thing I thought was probably just worth mentioning before we wrap this up is that J.K. Rowling did kind of walk back Ron and Hermione in a statement that she made just a couple of years ago at this point.

Andrew: That blew up the fandom.

Eric: The Wonderland article.

Micah: Yeah, when she said that Harry and Hermione probably would have made more sense.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I hated this when it happened.

Andrew: A lot of people did.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, well, because it just felt like retconning, but also, it really feels like Ron has been robbed of the things that make him a good character. I love Rupert Grint; I think his casting as Ron was brilliant, but I felt that the way Ron was portrayed in the movies was so wrong. They turned him into comic relief, they took all of his great lines and gave them to Hermione to make her the perfect character, and I just feel like over the years, Ron has been robbed of any ability to grow and develop. So of course, Ron was a stupid teenage boy in a lot of respects in the books, but when all these years later you step out and say, “Yeah, Hermione and Ron would have had a toxic relationship,” you’re robbing Ron of the ability to get better and grow.

Andrew: Definitely.

Eric: Yeah, but at a certain point, that same author agreed that people who ship Harry and Hermione are delusional.

Laura: Yes. [laughs]

Eric: But it’s a trajectory, right? These things… we grow; we reassess. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer there.

Laura: No, I don’t think so. I know somebody must feel very seriously about this one because of the note, but the ship is Remus and Sirius. This has always been a really, really big ship in the fan fiction community. So who made the “Wolfstar 5eva” note here?

Andrew: Had to be Eric.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Actually, it was the most awkward experience of my life, discovering that this was a thing. And it’s because it was the on Harry Potter Fan Trips when we saw the third Harry Potter film. My chaperone – because I was 16, but I needed a chaperone to go on the trip – was this woman named Catherine, who later wrote for MuggleNet, and she was the world’s biggest Wolfstar shipper. And so we were watching the scene where Gary Oldman is hugging David Thewlis tightly and saying, “This is your heart,” and “I know you,” or whatever. Anyway, next to me is the loudest squee…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: And she just sits up on the edge of her seat and is like… [squeals]

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Eric: And I’m like, “What is going on here?” And she’s like, “It’s Wolfstar! They’re together!” And it’s like, “Wow.” And all these years later, I can’t deny that there are a lot of overtones in Prisoner of Azkaban the movie, the Cuarón film, for Remus and Sirius. There’s a whole other level, “You’d know all about the madness within, wouldn’t you, Remus?” kind of a thing.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So yeah, it’s some serious stuff. But actually, I have since come to really feel as though Wolfstar is the most canon-compliant ship, the most canon-compliant gay ship that exists in Harry Potter. I think that Remus has a weakness; Remus has low self-esteem, and it’s the group of his friends that really allow him to grow and see his potential. But James is with Lily. Sirius was never really with anybody; Sirius was never really described in the books as being with anybody. So where there’s a vacuum, where there’s space, readers are going to put things in and assume that Remus and Sirius could have grown pretty close.

Laura: Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of interpretations in fan fiction that these characters’ moments would be when Sirius was trying to trick Snape into going to the Whomping Willow and James saves Snape, and then Remus and Sirius have a big falling-out because Remus is super pissed that Sirius did this, and in all of that drama and commotion, it comes out, and that’s where their relationship gets started. So there’s a lot of really great writing out there that focuses on the potential of this relationship during their Hogwarts years.

Micah: Right. Well, do you think it would be more when they’re transformed, or when they’re actual humans? Or both?

Eric: I think that’s part of it, having this secret life that you share together, right? So roaming the grounds at night, can you imagine how fun that must be? So I think for the two of them, it could have been more like… I don’t know about dating. But there’s also the issue of whether Remus is himself when he’s werewolf, but still, yeah, I think it was all over.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Micah: The other thing that came to mind with Remus was I remember from Prisoner of Azkaban when he’s talking with Harry on the bridge, there’s kind of an allusion to something potentially between Remus and Lily, just the way he talks about her. And I think we eventually learned that it’s more just due to her kindness as a human being towards him, but it seemed like he was reflecting back on something that may have been a bit romantic, maybe just from his end.

Eric: Yeah, Rowling’s comments actually said, “There’s a moment in the third Harry Potter film where Remus talks to Harry. It’s not a scene in the books, but he touches on something that’s so, so crucial to events of the seventh book.” And she said that in advance of the seventh book coming out, and so a lot of people were like, “Wow, was Remus romantically involved with Lily?”

Laura: Yeah, and I will say, it’s also a really common thing to see in fan fiction to have Lily be with a different Marauder before she gets with James. So I’ve seen multiple versions of stories that have her paired up with Sirius, or have her paired up with Remus… I’ve never seen one where she’s paired up with Peter.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But it’s always the precursor to she and James getting together. And I don’t know, sometimes it goes down some weird paths, but yeah, it’s definitely interesting,

Micah: Peter is just playing with his wand in the corner.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: But also, I mean, it’s not an unrealistic thing. Think about when we were in high school. It wasn’t uncommon for people to date around their friend groups.

Eric: Yeah, that seems like… looking back, I see how problematic that is, and was, for hurt feelings and things like that. Like, you don’t shit where you eat. But teenagers do it all the time.

Laura: Yep. So this is my favorite headcanon one: Huna, and it’s Harry/Luna. So 14-year-old me, when Order of the Phoenix came out, I was convinced that Harry and Luna were going to get together, just because they share so many deep experiences surrounding being outsiders, and then grief over the loss of at least one parent. And you really see Harry at the end of Order of the Phoenix gaining an appreciation for the way Luna exists in the world and thinks about and perceives things, and I thought this would be a really interesting pairing, because Luna is such a unique character. And y’all know how I feel about Ginny. And I just feel like Luna is so multifaceted that this could be a really interesting pairing.

Andrew: Huna Huna!

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I’m curious, why didn’t you go with Larry? Why is it Huna?

Andrew: Larry? Because then it sounds like a person.

Micah: I know. Just joking.

Laura: Well, also, the ship is just called Huna.

Micah: Huna Huna. I like it.

Andrew: I like this one. I think we were reflecting on this when we were doing our Order of the Phoenix reread as well. I really loved the arc that… Harry at the beginning of the book is obviously like, “What a weirdo.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And then by the end, like you said, Laura, he finally sees Luna’s potential and what she stands for, and that they actually have a lot in common.

Eric: Yeah. Here’s a girl who comes out of nowhere and teaches Harry to see the world a little bit differently. Pure beginnings of romance there.

Laura: Well, and she doesn’t care what other people think of her.

Andrew: Yeah, which is what Harry needs.

Laura: Yeah, I love Harry, but he cares a little too much what people think of him sometimes. And it just seemed like there was a lot of potential here. I totally understood when this didn’t happen in the books. I was a little bit peeved when they suggested that Neville and Luna got together in the movie, because I was like, “Oh my God, this is so predictable, taking the weird kids in school and putting them together.” But this is forever my one true pairing, Harry and Luna.

Micah: I like it.

Laura: And then there’s another one that’s pretty popular; it’s Luna and Ginny. It’s called Linny. I like this one because again, I think similar to Harry and Luna, it pairs people who are different in a lot of ways but also have a lot in common with regard to their connection to death, just because of Ginny being possessed by Voldemort and everything, and Luna’s openness towards considering things that are maybe outside of the mainstream. And I like the idea of the banter that would happen between these two.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, in terms of where it happened or when it occurred, I can only think of the canon examples that we have. If I were trying to defend Linny and say it was canon, I would point out that Ginny introduced Luna to the group. She’s the one who is like, “Oh, yeah, I know this girl, and people call her Loony, but she’s cool. She’s in my grade and she’s in Ravenclaw.” I think there’s more brewing there. They would have interacted when they had classes together. And also, Ginny often defends people in her grade from making fun of Luna; there’s a line in there somewhere about that. So she is always one to come to Luna’s rescue a little bit and say, “No, she’s all right. You’ve got to hear her out. She’s interesting.” She sees the value in Luna sooner than everyone else, and I think that may be due to having feelings for this person.

Laura: Yeah, I think you could make a case for that in a fan fiction, and certainly, there are plenty examples of this out there. A lot of them, at least the ones that I’ve seen, seem to pair them up post-Hogwarts, so in some sort of alternate universe where Harry and Ginny don’t get together. So yeah, I like it. But we want to hear about y’all’s favorite pairings, and if you have any great fan fictions you’d like to send our way, we’d be interested in looking at those too.

Eric: Yeah, we’re getting some recommendations in the livestream on Patreon.

Laura: Heck yeah! Thanks, guys.


Quiz: Which Hogwarts House is your soulmate in?


Andrew: I thought we could do this Buzzfeed quiz together: Which Hogwarts House is your soulmate in?

Micah: All right.

Andrew: And Buzzfeed has a fun feature where we can actually…

Micah: Andrew, you’re right here.

Andrew: [laughs] … where we can actually take a quiz together. So I want you three to click that link in the doc. Okay, so the first question: What’s your Hogwarts House? So everybody just pick your normal answer.

Micah: Got it.

Laura: Ravenclaw.

Andrew: Slytherin.

Eric: Hufflepuff.

Andrew: What’s your favorite class at Hogwarts? I’m going to say Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Eric: Oh, Transfiguration all the way.

Laura: Same. Transfiguration.

Eric: Yeah, if you can get good at it, that would be the coolest class of all time.

Andrew: Which character would you bring back from the dead? And the options are Fred, Sirius, Remus, or Dobby.

Laura: Ohh, Dobby.

Andrew: Yeah, they have such a sad picture of Dobby, too, so I feel like you have to click him.

Eric: I’m picking Sirius.

Micah: Picking Remus.

Andrew: I’m saying Dobby as well. Which Harry Potter sweet would you eat? Chocolate Frogs, Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans, Cauldron Cakes, or Licorice Wands.

Laura: Chocolate Frogs.

Eric: You can’t go wrong with chocolate.

Laura: All the way.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m saying the frogs too.

Micah: I’ll go with the beans. They’re good for your heart.

Andrew: Which character do you most relate to? The options are Harry, Ron, Hermione, or Luna.

Eric: Gosh.

Laura: Luna. 100%.

Micah: Luna.

Eric: I might say Harry.

Andrew: I’m going to say Harry too. Lastly, who do you want your soulmate to be most like?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I hope this answer doesn’t heavily weigh…

Eric: Heavily weighted, yeah. This is like those Houses quizzes that are like, “Are you feeling snaky?”

Andrew: I’m going to say I want my soulmate to be most like Draco; I’m sorry.

Eric: I say Ginny.

Laura: What about Draco makes you want…?

Andrew: Well, he’s a good-looking dude. He is smart, as we spoke about today. He’s got some things going for him.

Micah: I’ll go with Fred.

Laura: I’ll say Luna; that’s of these people.

Eric: I got Gryffindor!

Andrew: All right. Are you happy with that?

Eric: I’m dating a Ravenclaw.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: But are you happy with that?

Eric: I’m very happy with dating the Ravenclaw that I am dating.

Micah: I got Ravenclaw.

Andrew: Okay, and Micah, you are a Ravenclaw, right?

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: So are you pleased by that? Do you want to date somebody in your own House?

Micah: Yeah, sure.

Andrew: All right. I got Slytherin, and I am in Slytherin. [sighs] So yeah, I guess I feel like my Draco answer at the end really weighed my result. But I guess I want that. I definitely didn’t want Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. I was hoping for Gryffindor.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, I got Ravenclaw as my answer. I also am a Ravenclaw. But my life partner is a Slytherin, so I guess we’ve got some things to talk about.

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: All right. Well, Eric and Laura have some things to work – actually, I do, too, because I’m with a Gryffindor. Well, I did say wanted a Gryffindor answer. Hmm. I think I’m going to believe this quiz and just say I should be with a Slytherin. Darn. Downloading Tinder now…

Eric: And we’re ending relationships. [laughs] To celebrate Valentine’s this year, the MuggleCast hosts, 75% broke up with their current relationships.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: And we downloaded Tinder and we said, “You must be a… this House.”

Laura: [laughs] No, but this is so boring. I don’t want my partner to be in my same House. That’s so boring.

Andrew: Yeah, something nice about relationships are the differences you have with somebody else. Yeah, I agree. And I probably shouldn’t be with a Slytherin because they would probably go and cheat on me or something like that.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Aren’t you a Slytherin?

Andrew: Yeah, uh… all right, so moving on. It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Laura laughs]


Quizzitch


[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What statue resides next to the Prefect’s Bathroom? The correct answer is Boris the Bewildered. Correct answers were submitted by Katie Jane; Ning Chi; Asha Clark Watson; Time-Traveling Unicorn; Lance Dance; HallowWolf; Bort Voldemort; Zoom Tarot; Really Reardon; Ellie Friga; Ex-Nigerian; Nadia; Stephanie; Jason; Robbie; Stacy; and The Seas. And for next week: How far did Harry throw the gnome that bit him?

Micah: Nice. How appropriate for Valentine’s Day.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s my one true pairing: Harry and the garden gnome.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Love at first bite.

Eric: Submit your correct answer to us over on Twitter; use #Quizzitch and reply at @MuggleCast. We got a DM with a correct answer and I ignored it.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh my God, Eric.

Micah: Wow. You’re rough, dude.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Ringo Starr wants to help you out, Eric.

[Ringo Starr audio clip plays]

Ringo: “This is a serious message to everybody watching my update right now. Peace and love, peace and love.”

[Andrew laughs]

Ringo: “I want to tell you, please, after the 20th of October, do not send fan mail to any address that you have. Nothing will be signed after the 20th of October. If that has a date on the envelope, it’s going to be tossed. I’m warning you with peace and love. I have too much to do.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Ringo: “So no more fan mail. Thank you, thank you. And no objects to be signed, nothing. Anyway, peace and love, peace and love.”

[Ringo Starr audio clip ends]

Andrew: Twitter replies only! Nothing else! Peace and love, peace and love, peace and love.

Eric: [reciting fondly] “I’m warning you with peace and love.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So basically what this means is that people can still DM you until October 20.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Or email or voicemail.

Andrew: Nothing!

Eric: All right, shout-out to Cyrillic Martin, who DM’d the correct answer to Quizzitch the last two weeks in a row.

Micah: There you go.

Andrew: Oh, you just opened the floodgates, though. Now everybody is going to hit up our DMs. Slide into those DMS. They should, for Valentine’s Day.

Micah: Look, Ringo left himself open, though; he should have said a year, because now, depending on when you play that…

Eric: [laughs] It’s not October 20 yet!

Micah: It’s not October 20 yet.

Andrew: “I’m warning you with peace and love, peace and love, peace and love, peace and love.” And he’s putting up the peace sign too. You know he loves them, but please stop. “I don’t want to sign anything anymore.” That was actually pretty nice of Ringo to sign anything that was sent in to his mailbox.

Eric: Can you imagine? Yeah, I mean, carpal tunnel is a real condition. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but I mean, he’s a Beatle. I bet he got a ton of mail he was signing. All right, well, thanks, everybody, for joining us today for our 500th episode. Here’s to 500 more. I’m moderately confident that we’ll one day hit Episode 1,000, especially if we have a Harry Potter TV series or eight in our future.

Eric: Oh yeah, TV series would be perfect for that. I see us going to about 777.

Andrew: Oh, that would be appropriate. Until then, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com.

Micah: Unless it’s Quizzitch. Then you just have to use Twitter.

Andrew: Yes, peace and love, peace and love. Or you can call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. No Quizzitch answers that way, please; peace and love, peace and love. Or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Again, no Quizzitch that way, either; peace and love, peace and love. We’d also appreciate if you took a minute to rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast, and thank you to everybody who does review us. One person was critical of my impersonations last week; they thought they were a little offensive, but that person did still give us five stars, so I appreciate that, and your feedback has been taken into account.

Eric: And before October 20 of this year… you know what, I want to remind people that they can still send snail mail to the MuggleCast P.O. box, which is located at 4044 North Lincoln Avenue in Chicago, 60618. And send your love and not Quizzitch answers there.

Andrew: Peace and love, peace and love.

Eric: Peace and love.

Andrew: You can follow us on social media as well. We are @MuggleCast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn. All of these options help us grow our numbers so that the next time we look at MuggleCast by the numbers, we have some bigger numbers to share with everybody.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And also, we would love your support on Patreon, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Again, we’re at Episode 500 today thanks to our patrons, and thanks to everybody who’s tuned in this morning joining us for our 500th episode. And we have this new AMA feature as well; we just launched this a week ago. One of the four MuggleCasters here are going to do an Ask Me Anything each month on video, and that’s a really fun new feature that we’re looking forward to rolling out. Eric already did the first one, and I saw a lot of great feedback.

Eric: Should we announce who’s coming this month?

Andrew: I think we don’t know, genuinely. Who wants to do it? I’ll do it.

Micah: It’s Andrew. Andrew is doing it this month.

Eric: Andrew!

Andrew: It’s me! Send in your questions; nothing too personal. Peace and love, peace and love.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: And I think once a year we’re going to all hop on Zoom together and do an AMA together, and that’ll change the dynamic and the answers.

Eric: I have to say, I was thrilled by the AMA. I thought we got some really good questions; they ranged from book questions to, you know, non-book questions. [laughs] So I thought it was great.

Andrew: And last but not least, thank you for listening to today’s episode. Happy 500. Once again, here’s to 500 more. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Eric: Bye, and thank you.


Listener voicemails


“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Ally. I’m currently living in Florida, and I was just calling to say congrats on 500 episodes! That is such an amazing milestone, and you guys have just been putting in the most work. You guys have been doing an amazing job all these years. The first time I listened to you guys was Episode 50; you were actually the first podcast I ever listened to. I remember burning that episode on a CD because I just could not stop laughing at Andrew and Jamie singing ‘Your Song’ and all the hijinks you guys got up to, so I listened to that episode a lot. But you guys have always been there for me through my teenage years, through my adult puberty years where I have no idea what I’m doing. But no matter how confused I am at life, I always know that MuggleCast is there for me to not only analyze the books and get into these hard-hitting topics surrounding Harry Potter, but also digesting what’s happening in the real world and how it relates to the books, especially with all these political things going on. So thank you so much for always just being there for me, and for putting out such a wonderful podcast. You guys are the best, and here’s to 500 more. Thank you so much. Bye.”

“This is Drew from the Gamer News Radio podcast, and I just want to congratulate MuggleCast on making it to 500 episodes! That is absolutely amazing, and not many podcasts could actually say they have made it to 500 episodes. Here’s to 500 more episodes of MuggleCast. Keep up the good work, guys.”

“Yo, I’ve been listening to MuggleCast since I was 12. I’m 25 now. I think Micah is really fun… [laughs] I think Micah is a really funny guy. [laughs] I don’t know why that’s so funny. He just seems like a really chill dude, so he really calms me down. And yeah, I’ve listened to it when I’ve been on a bus, when I’ve been on a plane, in Japan, in America, flying from Vegas to New York. And that five-hour flight, when they used to say ‘Turn off electronic devices,’ I would keep listening to MuggleCast. So yeah, it’s been fun. Hopefully, things continue.”

“Hi, MuggleCast. Happy 500! I found the show shortly after moving from England to Canada, and as an awkward Harry Potter-loving 9-year-old, I didn’t have a lot of friends. Luckily for me, this coincided with the dawn of podcasting, and the first one I ever downloaded was MuggleCast. Hearing your voices really helped to get me through that time. I’ve followed you from MuggleCast to Imprint to Smart Mouths to Millennial, and recently I found myself back here again. We’re under a lockdown in Canada, so catching up on the episodes I’ve missed has been such an escape from the world in a time that I think we need it more than ever. It’s not only a nostalgia trip, but the content is just as fantastic as ever. I’m also a writer, and my goal one day is for Andrew to think that my novels are worth starting a podcast about. So thank you for always being in my pocket. Happy 500.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Shalaria. Just wanted to say congratulations on your 500th episode. So I came to Harry Potter around 2000 as a young high school English teacher, and note, I originally pictured Harry Potter as animation. And I came to MuggleCast from Imprint around 2006, and am still a devoted Ravenclaw listening every week. You talked about early memories; I went to the 2007 midnight release with a bunch of friends, and I was in my 30s at the time and my kids were staying with Grandma. They are now teenage fans, another Ravenclaw and a Hufflepuff, both of whom started the series in middle school. We were firm believers in reading the books before watching the movies and still are. So I just wanted to say thank you for all the years of news, analysis, and geek chic discussions. Thank you and congrats.”

“Hey MuggleCast, Yasmina here. I’m more of a recent listener. I have been incorporating your podcast into my daily routine, so I truly hope you guys don’t run out of ideas. I just wanted to congratulate you guys on your 500th episode; what an amazing accomplishment. I have truly enjoyed every single episode, and I really appreciate the uniqueness and the different inputs that make your episodes much more interesting to listen to. Just wanted to thank you for paving the path for and inspiring many others to start their own Harry Potter podcasts. I can’t wait to see what you guys have in store for the upcoming episodes, and again, congratulations on this very important and huge milestone. Bye-bye.”

“Hi, MuggleCast. Tom from England here. Happy 500th episode. It’s crazy how long it’s been. I’ve been listening since 2008, so it’s been quite a journey, and excited to where you go in the future. Okay, thank you. Bye.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, it’s Lotty. I just wanted to hop on and say congratulations on 500 episodes. I remember 15 years ago doing MuggleCast sleepovers with my friends, and now I’m 28 and still listening to you guys, and I love it so much. You guys are wonderful. Congratulations.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, Emily from Germany here. Just wanted to drop in and say congratulations. I really, really, really enjoy your podcast; it’s the best podcast ever.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, it’s Becky from Sydney, Australia here. I just wanted to congratulate you all on reaching your 500th episode, and for getting this far without ever having the author on the show. I guess you guys were just really ahead of your time with that decision, just like you were ahead of your time entering the podcast scene. I’ve been listening since 2006, and it’s been awesome seeing how far you guys have come, and I look forward to hearing all your future episodes. Love the show.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, My name is Sarah Beth. I’m a relatively new Harry Potter fan as well as MuggleCast fan. I just want to congratulate you all on 500 episodes, and thank you all for providing a place for Harry Potter fans to deep-dive intellectually and completely goof off. I feel like y’all have become my friends over the past several months of listening, so congrats again and keep fighting the good fight.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Audrey from Indianapolis. Congrats on 500 episodes. It’s absolutely crazy that you’ve recorded 500 and I’ve listened to 500 of your episodes. Thanks so much for being there every week, and here’s to another 500.”

“Hi guys, I just wanted to congratulate you on your 500th episode and let you know I’ve heard all of them many times, subliminally or consciously, because I have MuggleCast playing through my headphones every night. You are like my lullaby. I enjoy your episodes so much; I find you and your show so entertaining and your voices are very soothing, so if I do wake up in the middle of the night, it just brings me right back to that happy place, and I so appreciate it. I’m so grateful for your hard work all these years, and cheers to another 500. Take care.”

Transcript #499

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #499, Life As An Adult Harry Potter Fan


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: This week we’re going to be talking about being an adult Harry Potter fan and what it means to still like Harry, and we’re also going to talk with one of our listeners who’s parenting an up-and-coming Harry Potter fan, and that listener is Julia. Hi, Julia. Welcome to the show.

Julia: Hi, thank you. I am thrilled to be here.

Andrew: Awesome, yeah. Now, you are the mom of Wyatt…

Julia: I am.

Andrew: … who wrote in a couple of weeks ago, and we thought, “Well, since we want a Harry Potter parent on the show today, why don’t we call up Wyatt’s mom and see what’s up?”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: The famous Wyatt.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Julia: Oh my goodness, that was hysterical, you guys. Your discussion about his question was… it made our day.

Eric: Well, it was a great question, honestly. It was such a good question.

Andrew: I’m still thinking about it, yeah.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Let’s get your fandom ID.

Julia: All right. My favorite book is Half-Blood Prince, my favorite movie is Sorcerer’s Stone, I am a proud Hufflepuff, I don’t actually know my Ilvermorny House, and my Patronus is a dolphin.

Andrew: I am so glad you said you don’t know your Ilvermorny House because I was just reminded this week that they took down the Ilvermorny quiz.

Eric: They did.

Andrew: Is that why you don’t know it?

Julia: Partially, yeah. I think I just never took it when it was still there.

Eric: You guys, this is America’s wizarding school! We’re all in America…

Andrew: And it’s being erased. [laughs]

Eric: You don’t want to know? You never wanted to know what it was going to be?

Julia: I don’t know; maybe I’m just holding out hope for a foreign exchange program.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Eric: You’re right. You’re right.

Andrew: You want to go to Hogwarts. We get it.

Laura: That’s legit.

Julia: I feel a connection to Hogwarts. I don’t really feel a connection to Ilvermorny.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Well, because of the fact that they dropped the test from the site, I’m wondering if we should retire Ilvermorny House from the fandom ID, because it’s just not fair to any listeners like Julia who can’t take it.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Anyway, how old were you when you first got into Harry Potter?

Julia: I’m only a little bit older than you guys; I’m 38. And I was in high school when the books were coming out, so they weren’t really on my radar; they were being marketed to kids at the time, really. So I didn’t listen to them until my freshman year of college and I went on a road trip with a friend, and we borrowed the audiobooks of the first four books on cassette tape…

Eric: Nice.

Julia: … which was awesome, and that was in 2001. Later that fall, got to go see the Sorcerer’s Stone movie on opening night with a bunch of friends, and that was a lot of fun, and then literally two weeks later I met my now husband and got him into Harry Potter.

Andrew and Eric: Oh!

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: What a magical year for you.

Laura: I know.

Julia: It was. It was a very special year. [laughs]

Micah: Given that it was just the holiday season, I’m curious. I’m just making sure that you haven’t purchased for Wyatt anything like a locket, a cup, a diary, or a snake.

[Everyone laughs]

Julia: No, there’s very little Dark magic happening here.

Micah: Okay. I just wanted to be sure.

Andrew: So we do have a couple of news items to mention. Last week, we did talk about the chances of a Harry Potter TV series heating up with the appointment of a television exec appointed to be in charge of growing the Wizarding World franchise. After we recorded that, we found out from the Hollywood Reporter that a Harry Potter TV series is in the works. Now, this has been inevitable, so I can’t say that any of us are super surprised by it. And of course, we’ve been talking about why it was inevitable for years. But the Hollywood Reporter did say that it is going to be live action; I’m very relieved to hear that. It is going to be on HBO Max, which again, not a huge surprise, and WB is currently hearing lots of pitches from different writers. So we’re in the very early days, and we’re still years from ever possibly seeing this Harry Potter series on HBO Max, but something is in the works. And hopefully in the year ahead, maybe, we will hear reports about the idea that they have settled on.

Micah: It’s just funny; we always have these conversations, and then it feels like either the day before or right on the day of our release, this news comes out.

Eric: It’s you, Micah. You get results.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: It must be. But I will just give an update that that executive has still yet to connect with me on LinkedIn.

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Micah: Very disappointed. I haven’t even gotten a profile view or anything, but I’m assuming he’s pretty busy.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Micah pays for LinkedIn Ultra where he can see where that guy is at any given time.

Micah: LinkedIn Premium.

Andrew: “He hasn’t looked at my profile!” Oh my gosh, you sound like an ex who can’t get over the relationship.

Micah: To your point, it’s not surprising. We’ve talked a little bit about how series like A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones are doing spinoffs now, though I did read yesterday that they are looking at an animated version of that. So Andrew, an animated version of Harry Potter may not be far off after they do live action.

Andrew: I don’t want it. Don’t manifest that, please.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It worked for Star Trek; they’re doing animated. Everybody’s touching it.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m sure at some point there will be animated, but first, they’ve got to do live action. And I also feel like they will be seriously considering several ideas for TV shows, and by that I mean they might put a couple into development at once, because look at what’s happening with Game of Thrones and Star Wars and Marvel: They are creating multiple TV series in these fandoms because it keeps people subscribed to these streaming platforms year round if they can keep continue releasing content year round. So I see a day for MuggleCast where we will be focused on these TV shows, and like I said last week, recording at 2:00 a.m. to discuss what happens. [fake cries]

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Exciting. Exciting. But there is a big question, too, about how involved J.K. Rowling will be, and there’s already a lot of concern about that, as there should be. I doubt she will personally be very involved, but she will be collecting a paycheck from these things in all likelihood. And by the way, if you haven’t already, check out Episode 483 of MuggleCast where we did a deep dive into fancasting a Harry Potter reboot that would air on television.

Eric: Jennifer Lawrence is still my favorite casting.

Andrew: For Molly Weasley?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Sure. Okay. You know what? I’ll buy into that now. 2021, new year, new me.

Eric: Aww, thanks.

Andrew: JLaw for Molly. [laughs] Also, MuggleNet is reporting that Fantastic Beasts 3 is going to finish filming this week, which honestly surprises me.

Eric: That is surprising, but I have no concept of time.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. Maybe that’s my problem.

Eric: Since the pandemic, because we know filming was delayed forever. Actually, I think either the day that they were going to start filming, or the day after they started filming entirely, the whole studio shut down; everybody had to quarantine. So finding out that they’ve managed to record the entire movie so far, film everything they needed to film, is surprising.

Andrew: Especially with just appointing Mads Mikkelsen into the role of Grindelwald.

Laura: Yeah! That’s what I was wondering. I was like, “How much is Grindelwald in this movie?”

Micah: Just a smidge.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I respect the people at MuggleNet, but I don’t know if this is entirely true. But we’re going to assume it is, and in bonus MuggleCast this week, available on Patreon, we are going to discuss what happens now. When can we expect to hear more info about this movie, trailer, synopsis, and why a 2022 release if they just finished filming? So we’ll talk about all that. Patreon.com/MuggleCast.

Eric: Well, I mean, MuggleNet said insiders told them. People on the set.

Andrew: Who are these insiders? Reveal yourselves! Reveal your sources!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: At this rate, honestly, we’re going to get the title of the movie on Monday and we’re going to have to do a whole new episode.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Oh, darn.


Main Discussion: Life as an adult Harry Potter fan


Andrew: So let’s move to our main discussion today: being an adult and still liking Harry Potter and facing people who might wonder why we still like Harry Potter as adults. And this is going to be kind of a two part discussion; we’re going to talk about, like I just said, being an adult Harry Potter fan and what that means, especially when people question it, and parenting future Harry Potter fans. Eric, one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this today is Harry Potter has always been marketed as a series for children.

Eric: Yeah, there’s really been a push against any overall industry effort to get adults to read these books. I’ve known plenty of adults that have found the messages very relevant, and anyone can enjoy the storytelling and the richness of the world, but it just seems that there’s always been this push to keep Harry Potter firmly in the box of kids’ stuff.

Andrew: For as long as Harry Potter has been in existence, there’s been this wide assumption that the books are only for kids, and then that puts adults like us in difficult positions.

Eric: Right, exactly, because of this push… because Harry Potter is always listed… you always have to walk to the children’s section.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And you’re there with Franklin the turtle and Clifford the Big Red Dog, and you kind of feel like… even as a teen when I would go check out Borders’s Harry Potter section, I’d be a little bit nervous about kids running around my ankles next to me. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, and the kids section is always separated from the rest of the bookstore; you have to go through, like, a magic wall that they set up…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: You have to walk under an arch to get to…

Eric: Well, right, because when Harry Potter was out in bookstores, there wasn’t even a young adult section many times. We’ll probably touch on this, because Harry Potter really changed everything, including bookstore layouts. But yeah, absolutely. You had to go through the magic wall with the train that was going around the store with people in it.

Micah: Well, and don’t interrupt story time that’s going on in the little circle with all the kids.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I know, you’ve got to… shhhh. So I can’t imagine what it would have been like for somebody who was already an adult when Harry Potter was huge.

Andrew: We have some evidence of the publishers being aware of this issue, and we’ll talk about that in a moment. But first I wanted to ask, have any of us here ever faced some backlash for being an adult Harry Potter fan? Not when we were kids, but as an adult, so in the past decade.

Laura: Not really, honestly, and I kind of credit that to the change in our culture. It’s cool to be a nerd now.

Julia: Indeed.

Laura: It didn’t used to be cool to be super into fandom, and now it is. I face this less now than I did as a kid.

Julia: I agree, absolutely. The culture has definitely shifted and nerd culture is part of mainstream now. It definitely didn’t used to be, especially when the books were first coming out.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Because as kids, we couldn’t necessarily be open about being a Harry Potter fan. I certainly was not open about being a part of a Harry Potter podcast, and then when my TV tech teacher exposed me, it was like, the worst day of my life. It was like I was outed as gay or something.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: It was that bad. Nobody was making fun of me; I was just so embarrassed that my secret had been revealed. [laughs]

Eric: Well, and originally it felt weird to be me, because I was originally also thinking the books were cheesy and for children, and then when I started liking them, I was like, “Well, clearly I was wrong.”

Micah: And for me, I mean, Julia and I are the same age, and so I mean, I’ve always been an adult Harry Potter fan, so hopefully I can bring that perspective. But I agree with what Laura and Julia both said; as an adult, it’s actually… you find more engaging conversation goes on with people when you say, number one, that you do a podcast, because the first thing people always say, “Oh, well, what is it about? Can I download it? Can I listen to it?” They’re very excited to learn about it. And I think once you add in Harry Potter, the first question you always get is, “Oh, well, what do you guys talk about?” And that just spurs more conversation. And I think, yeah, fandom has become so much a part of our culture now where it wasn’t before, and just the rise of other series that we’ve seen take off post-Harry Potter, I would credit Potter with that, too.

Eric: Yeah, the inmates have taken over the asylum, you guys.

Andrew: I think you all are right. I still think there are people out there, though, who question why adults would like Harry Potter, because maybe they just have always known it to be a children’s series. I don’t have any specific examples myself of being made fun of or anything like that, but I definitely know of some people who would question it, but they just suck, so whatever.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s part of it, right? As an adult, you get to make the choice about who you want to surround yourself with, right? When you’re a kid, that’s not always the case. So I feel like as adults, we’ve made a very conscious choice to surround ourselves with people who don’t make it a habit to crap all over the things that other people like.

Andrew: Great point. And while this is not directly backlash, a common question I’ve gotten over the years is, “You’re still doing MuggleCast?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Even Harry Potter fans.

Eric: I hate this question. I hate this question so much.

Andrew: Why?

Eric: It makes me have to question why I’m still doing this show. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, really? Oh, no.

Eric: I mean, no, I get such joy out of it, which is why. But no, it seems to suppose that Harry Potter is over and died, and we know from doing this show that’s just not true.

Laura: I’ve definitely gotten the question, “What do you guys talk about?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I was like, “Have you read these books?” I mean, it’s an incredibly rich source material there; you can have endless conversations about it. And I don’t think people realize sometimes how involved the fandom still is and how alive it still is, so there’s still a good bit for us to riff on, that’s for sure.

Eric: And Micah is right; usually when people ask “What do you talk about?”, it is this air of they’re genuinely interested. It does foster sort of a good conversation. But we wouldn’t get that question if we said we started a Marvel podcast in 2008 or…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: When did Iron Man come out? 2010? Something like that.

Laura: Somewhere in there.

Eric: We wouldn’t get those kinds of questions.

Micah: I will say though, too, for adults… maybe this is a presumption and not necessarily totally true in all cases, but I think that adults have more of an awareness about the conversation at hand, and so if maybe a kid would start going down the road of making fun of you for it, an adult has a little bit more awareness that they’re going to try and shift the conversation a little bit and get to know a little bit more about, “Okay, well, why are you doing this? Did you grow up reading the series?” Things like that. Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s just something that came to mind.

Andrew: Yeah. To Eric, your point about if we started a Marvel podcast, nobody would be asking that, but I think that’s because there’s still so much new content happening there, whereas in a lot of people’s minds, Harry Potter ended in 2007, or 2011/2012. And of course, Fantastic Beasts is still going on, but it’s just not as big. It’s not as important to the core story as all of these Marvel movies and now TV shows are. But I hope we get back to a point where there’s a lot of new Harry Potter content and everybody’s happy with it, and MuggleCast to even outsiders feels super relevant.

Laura: I will say, in recent history as an adult Harry Potter fan, I’ve not felt the need to defend my position in the fandom except for to offer people a disclaimer that I vigorously disagree with J.K. Rowling. So usually what’ll happen is people… I had it happen recently, actually, where a friend of a friend found out about MuggleCast because she was randomly in a Zoom happy hour call and another friend was in there and they realized they knew me, and my one friend was like, “Oh, do you know that she does this Harry Potter podcast?” And so she messages me and was like, “Hey, I didn’t know you did this.” And I was like, “Oh, yeah. But also, J.K. Rowling is very wrong.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And she was like, “Okay, yeah, agreed.” So I feel like I have to clear the air on that issue anytime somebody asks me about it, because I’m like, “Oh my God.”

Eric: Good point. Because if fellow adults who are more active and care about that… they want to make sure that we’re politically aligned with them, and I would be, too, yeah.

Micah: Right. And I would just add, too, I think there’s something about the fact that when you’re having these conversations, you can say, “Well, we started this when we were in our teens or early 20s, and we’ve done it for 15 years.” There’s a longevity to it. And it’s become a business, too, and I think when you have that conversation with adults, that resonates with them, right? And I think it can go either way. But to Laura’s point earlier, I don’t feel the need to sort of defend my position; I just say, “Look, I host a Harry Potter podcast” and go on from there, and most of the time the people that you’re talking to have read the books themselves, so it does spur additional conversation, and maybe you pick up a listener or two.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] One of our listeners listening over on Patreon right now, Savannah, she said, “I’m made fun of all the time for liking Harry Potter still. They are lame people.” We agree, Savannah. We agree.

Laura: Yeah, for real.

Andrew: To heck with them. Banish them. Push them through the veil.

Laura: Whoa.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: That’s murder, dude.

Andrew: No, it’s not. It’s just putting them in some weird space that we don’t know anything about yet.

Eric: You’re right, you’re right. Sirius is still alive.

Laura: Andrew is like, “I’m just putting them in a pocket dimension they can’t come back from. It’s okay.”

Andrew: It’s a timeout. Sirius Black is going to come back at some point, I’m convinced.

Eric: [laughs] Well, I will say the one time I actually really felt made fun of as an adult for being a Harry Potter fan was when that big news broke about Zoomers, or… the next generation out.

Andrew: Gen Z.

Eric: Gen Z were calling Millennials out for like, “Oh, a Hufflepuff isn’t a personality, Karen.”

Andrew: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Kind of like, yeah, “You’re 32 and you still talk about Hogwarts and the students there.”

Andrew: Right. Yeah, I wish we remembered the tweet; it was a pretty good one.

Laura: Oh, yeah. No, it was like, “Millennials will fight for their Hogwarts House but they can’t afford their own housing.” Something like that.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And I’ve never felt simultaneously more seen and more angry at being called out.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: You know what? I love it. And just a side note, I think Gen Z is great. Roast us, please.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. It’s funny to read.

Eric: They are the future. I think I want to embrace the younger generation being the future much more than previous generations embraced us.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: So like I mentioned a few minutes ago, the Harry Potter book publishers were aware that adults might feel uncomfortable reading the Harry Potter books with the original covers, because they did look like books for kids. And when you’re reading on the beach, in the subway, in the park, adults might want different covers. So what did they do, Eric?

Eric: So I found… this is one of three primary sources I found that I’d love to talk about on this show. But you know those adults edition UK Harry Potter books that I believe we’ve all become familiar with over the years?

Micah: Yeah, I have them.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Very simplistic design. I think Philosopher’s Stone is just the red Philosopher’s Stone on the front of it. Book 6 in particular is just the locket, and it’s very dark, very sort of covert. These are the adult edition covers. I found out that the ones we know and love of the adult edition covers, all seven of them, they only switched to that style in 2001, but as of 1998, actually… so as early as 1998, between the first and second book in the UK, they actually had another set, and they actually released “For adults” editions that were also… but it was a similar situation. It’s kind of a smokey cover, it’s usually focused on one element; like, there’ll be a dragon on it. But very, very different than the UK children’s edition, which is Harry in front of the train looking quizzical.

Andrew: Right. And those covers are very colorful, I would argue more colorful than the US ones. It is interesting they never did adult editions in the US, did they?

Eric: I don’t know why it didn’t catch on, especially because Scholastic, they would have liked the money. I guess it just would have been another opportunity, because seeing as how… the reason I base that claim is Scholastic has completely redone the Harry Potter book covers about 17 times since 2007.

Andrew: Oh, so many times.

Eric: So they’re not above money grabs, so I’m surprised too.

Andrew: I guess they realized that releasing only a certain cover wasn’t going to impact sales; they didn’t lose out on any readers just because they didn’t release any adult editions. Of course, you can always just take off the cover if you’re buying the hardback, too, so maybe that’s what they were thinking as well.

Micah: I’m trying to remember, too, if there’s anything else besides the covers specifically that are unique about the adult editions from the UK.

Andrew: No, I don’t think so.

Micah: I candidly have not opened the set. I have a set of all seven and it’s unopened, and I don’t plan on opening it anytime soon. [laughs]

Andrew: Okay, so you bought it just to collect. You weren’t hiding from people on the subway.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] No, I was not hiding from people; not for that reason I wasn’t hiding from people on the subway.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But I do think it’s an interesting marketing technique, though, that Bloomsbury came up with. And it is, to your point, also interesting that they never went down that road, really, in the US. They stuck with Mary GrandPré and her illustrations for the US editions. But clearly, there was a concern.

Eric: So further talking about the industry shift and them putting Harry in the children’s box, if you guys remember back in the late 90s/early 2000s, Harry Potter was obviously becoming the global phenomenon that it is now, and it was just topping the New York Times Book Review bestseller list constantly. Something like 57 or… no, 79 weeks, I think, was the record. So the New York Times, tired of seeing what was then the four Harry Potter books coming out on the top of the list all the time, actually created a New York Times Book Review children’s list. So Harry Potter was still topping the list, but they moved it to the children’s list so that other books… and there’s a lot of good comments I got, quotes I was reading about why that was a good thing. Apparently, some publishers were advocating for such a move, because the cluster of children’s books at the top of the adult list could keep deserving adult books off the list. But yeah, the editor of the Book Review said, “The time has come when we need to clear some room,” and it’s because this children’s… rather than embracing the children’s book that’s a really good world-building story for all ages, they’re like, “You know what? These books are getting in the way. They’re not giving adult books their due. We’re going to create a separate list.”

Laura: It’s like, actual market manipulation.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Hmm, interesting.

Laura: I feel like I can speak to that after the last few days living on this planet.

Andrew: They pulled a Robin Hood.

Laura: But yeah, I mean, it’s just moving the goalposts, right? And as we’ve established here on the show, there are plenty of adult themes in the Harry Potter books. And I think for people who maybe aren’t super familiar with the stories, they just hear “Harry Potter” and they think of it as being synonymous with “Oh, that’s a children’s story,” and I actually think, especially as the book goes on, that’s not always the correct categorization.

Andrew: Would you call, Laura, the later books, books for adults? Or not children’s books?

Laura: They’re kind of multifaceted, right? One of the things that I always admired about the Harry Potter books is that they don’t infantilize children.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Sometimes there can be this infuriating tendency towards treating children like they can’t understand darker, more adult concepts, and I think that is bogus. But maybe Julia might have some other thoughts on that topic. So I don’t know; I think that… I get for categorization purposes they have to stick Harry Potter somewhere, but sometimes I feel like constantly trying to create children’s spaces to shoehorn it into isn’t necessarily the most accurate way to depict what the books are about.

Julia: Yeah, I agree. I think that they really transcend categories, especially the last three books; they definitely get a whole lot darker after Goblet of Fire.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, especially after you read… if you read the whole series and then go back to 1 or 2, you’re like, “Wow, there is nothing happening here compared to what happens in the later books.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: The upside of creating this children’s bestseller list is that it probably featured a lot of children’s books that would never have been featured otherwise.

Laura: True.

Andrew: So at least there was that.

Eric: Yeah, and I’m quite comfortable with the series being nestled under young adult, even if it’s not… and I don’t think it’s like just naming it something else, like, “Oh, I feel uncomfy that it’s not being called children when I’m not a children,” but I mean, the heroes are 17 years of age at the end, so I feel like that’s a big deal, as the same age as the characters. And young adult has come to be much more widely respected as also meaning angsty, intelligent, relevant; these are the lessons you will need as a young adult when you go into the larger world, and I think Harry Potter actually fits quite comfortably under young adult lists.

Micah: Well, I just hope that the record extended. So if they were on the New York Times bestseller list for however many weeks, and then they move to children, they don’t lose the record just because they made that shift.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: They have so many different categories now, though. I’m looking. They have a bestselling children’s picture book section, and middle grade hardcover section, and then young adult hardcover, which is probably where Harry Potter would maybe go now. So they’ve really… they’ve added a bunch of categories over the past couple of decades.

Micah: Makes sense.

Andrew: And yet as we talk about all this, “Harry Potter is for kids” or “Harry Potter is for adults too,” they just always market it to children still, and I think that’s one of the most frustrating parts about this.

Micah: It’s bad marketing, honestly, and here’s why: because most of the fans are not kids anymore, right? And I understand appealing to a new generation, but if you want to appeal to the core base of fans, you need to look at people in their 20s and their 30s.

Andrew: Right, right. I always go back to the theme parks. Whenever you see commercials for the theme parks, it’s nothing but kids. And I also think back to when they opened the first theme park in 2010. There was this grand opening moment, and Dan Radcliffe walks into the park surrounded by children. [laughs] And I’m there like, “I’m excited too. Can I be excited, please?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: They just leaned so hard into that, and maybe they’re starting to…

Micah: Grow up, Andrew.

Andrew: What? Grow up? Yeah, I know.

Micah: Grow up. Go to Disney.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s another thing that’s hotly debated all the time. I mean, Disney Park fans are adults, and yet always marketed towards children. And then you always hear those comments from adults, like, “All these Millennials are obsessed with Disney, grow up, blah, blah, blah.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think they are starting to come around to marketing more to people like us. I’m thinking like, the Wizarding World online store, I see photos of adults like us. Or you think about Hot Topic or BoxLunch. We’re talking about how being a nerd is cool; they really lean into marketing to adults. But yeah, it’s been a long time coming, and we’ll see what they do in the years ahead. I’m not holding out hope, though, because… I mean, I guess on the other hand, these kids are the next generation so they want to market to them so they can have them hooked in for the next 30 years.

Eric: We talked about this on a recent episode, but the Wizarding World theme park is a great place to go to get a beer.

Andrew: Yeah, and the secret menu!

Eric: Oh, yeah, the Long Island that’s on the secret menu at the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But yeah, definitely these are adult spaces. And if you grew up with the books, you are an adult now, and you can enjoy these places, too. So that’s a good point. But my favorite source that I found when researching Harry Potter as a children’s book, what’s the pressure like, I found this 2003 article in The Telegraph called “I worry for Harry’s adult readers,” and it was published, like, the weekend after Harry Potter 5 came out in the UK. And it’s by this guy called Stephen Pollard, again, in The Telegraph. And here’s two choice quotes from this article: “The number of adults reading Harry Potter for themselves should hardly be surprising, given the infantilization of our culture.” It’s this whole article complaining about how so-called adults are embracing more and more children’s literature. He says, “Regression into childhood is the defining characteristic of modern culture. Computer games, pop music, loutishness, and fast food are all part of the same phenomenon – behaving as a child but in the body of an adult.”

Andrew: “And fast food.” That’s my favorite part of that sentence. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah, that’s just kind of like, “And why don’t you throw in the picket fence?” Just be like, “Kitchen sink, just anything.”

Julia: What a bummer for this dude.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: This dude sucks.

Andrew: He’s never had any fun in his adult life.

Micah: Yeah, what does he do for fun?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: In the article, he talks about going to see The Lion King on Broadway and hating it, but being surrounded by the people who…

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: I know, I know. But being surrounded by all these people who love it, and he’s just like, “This is childish. This is crazy.” So yeah, this is the most outspoken voice that could possibly exist. [laughs] But yet, something touches me: this whole thing about behaving as a child in the body of an adult. I hate to say it, but I still feel, at some times, 17 years old, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that we have… this was written 17 years ago, you guys. I feel like he was on to something only in that it was occurring, and not necessarily… I don’t share at all his negative opinion of it.

Andrew: These things are designed for people of all ages, and they make us happy. They give us an escape. They help us unwind at the end of the day. This kind of viewpoint is so silly, and like was said a couple of minutes ago, I worry for people like this who can’t enjoy pop music or… fast food. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I’m like, “Have you never felt nostalgia for anything?”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: That’s really sad if not.

Eric: Here’s another paragraph I found from this guy Stephen: “I managed to avoid the first Lord of the Rings film. The critical reception for the second, however, was so overwhelmingly positive – variations on the theme of ‘a stunning cinematic achievement’ – that curiosity, and the accusation that ‘You can’t criticize it unless you’ve seen it,’ got the better of me. After an hour of elves, monsters, and hilarious ham acting – hardly surprising, given the drivel the actors had to work with – I walked out. It was a children’s film shot for and marketed at adults.”

Micah: Harumph.

Eric: [laughs] So there’s his accusation that they were sneaking in or secretly marketing things that were children’s things for adults, so this guy probably definitely supported the opposite, like the adult covers and stuff.

Laura: Yeah, this guy sounds like a riot.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Let’s invite him to our next party. Sounds like a ton of fun.

Micah: For sure. He’s on bonus MuggleCast.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I assume people read The Telegraph.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big publication.

Eric: Yeah, we’ll put him on an episode with Laura Mallory.

Micah: Can I just stop after the first five words? Because I think those are the most important, which are: “The number of adults reading.” And that’s something that he doesn’t… actually, I’m not going to say that because I haven’t read the full Telegraph article, but I’m presuming it’s not something that he touches on. And Harry Potter was – and yes, we’ve mentioned this many times on this show – a once in a lifetime phenomenon. Being grouped in… and we can have other conversations about computer games and pop music, etc. But Harry Potter captured the globe, and it encouraged not just kids but adults to read, and I think the fact that that’s being omitted from what he’s writing here is a big issue.

Eric: I mean, seeing as how The Telegraph was so big, this is just one more bit of proof that there was probably immense pressure for adults to closet themselves at the time.

Andrew: Yeah. So we did go on Twitter, and we wanted stories from adults like us, and everybody was actually pretty positive. We didn’t hear any horrific stories about people being made fun of or anything for liking Harry Potter as an adult. Mother of Hedgehogs – that’s a fun name – said, “I read them before my kids did! And we went to every midnight release from Order of the Phoenix to Deathly Hallows. I wish I could relive those days! And many of the adults in my life were also reading them, so no worries there.” Carla said, “I was over 30 when I first read the Harry Potter books. I got immersed in a wonderful, well-constructed magical world of good versus evil. Yep, I stood besides excited children to get the books, the first at the movie theater. I even spent my 40th at Harry Potter Wizarding World Universal.” Nice, yeah. I have to say, if I was an adult when the Harry Potter books were released, I probably would have felt a little awkward being surrounded by a lot of kids at a midnight release party. Not that it would be wrong to be there, but it would just feel a little awkward.

Micah: Preorder it, Andrew, right to your door.

Andrew: Yeah, but going to a party was more fun.

Micah: Have a house party with some other friends.

Laura: I don’t know. I mean, I remember going to midnight release parties, and at least one of my parents would be there with us. I feel like a lot of kids were there with their parents, so it’s not as though you would be in a 100% child-filled environment. I don’t know.

Andrew: True.

Laura: Julia, did you ever get to do any midnight release parties for the movies or the books?

Julia: I went to the midnight release of Sorcerer’s Stone movie and the midnight release of Order of the Phoenix book release. And gosh, I feel like it was a good mix of people of all ages.

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Julia: And there were adults that were there without children. I don’t remember being overwhelmed by little kids.

Andrew: I’m trying to remember if my parents stayed with us during the midnight release. I don’t think they did. They dropped us off for one of the books and then picked us up at 12:30 or something like that. [laughs]

Eric: Probably went to the pub next door.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Eric: Adult things.

Laura: See, my mom usually came with us because she was just as excited as we were.

Andrew: So your mom read Harry Potter? My parents haven’t.

Laura: Oh, yeah. She was super into it and was reading the books alongside us and…

Andrew: Nice. Cool mom.

Laura: Yeah, she is.

Eric: FencingLibrarian on Twitter says, “I was 37 when Book 5 was published. I couldn’t stand not being in on this global phenomenon.” There, she gets it.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a big thing.

Eric: “While my twin daughters napped, I read. Never had I experienced such an immersive fantastical world. Immediately, I purchased Books 1-4, and I am still a fan.” FOMO is real. FOMO was definitely a motivating factor for that. And then TWJ on Twitter says, “I was 33, recently married (hubby was 43). We watched the first movie to see what the controversy -“ controversy [laughs] “- was all about, and loved the film. My former high school English teacher, Sister Helen, recommended the books, and I borrowed the first three from her.” Man, getting Harry Potter books from your old nun teacher. Amazing.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s a shocker.

Andrew: Blasphemy.

Micah: Maybe it shouldn’t be. That’s what makes me think that our our good friend Stephen Pollard is actually a huge Harry Potter fan.

Andrew: [laughs] Email him. Connect with him on LinkedIn.

Eric: I wonder if he still writes for The Telegraph.

Andrew: Kristen had a powerful story. She said, “I was 29 years old trying to connect with my 8-year-old son after the sudden death of my fiancé. I was numb, not coping and failing to connect with my son. I picked up Book 1 and hoped reading to him would be an easy way to spend time together, with the words already there for me, all I had to do was read aloud. I was a shell of myself and not the mother my boy needed. Slowly we were taken out of our world of grief and transported by magic. We learned to cope with our collective loss and found comfort in knowing ‘the ones who love us never really leave us.’ I was reminded that my love for my son would be his strength, and so over the course of a couple months we finished the books, not knowing all the while we were processing our grief and living again.” That’s really sweet, Kristen.

Laura: Yeah, that’s a beautiful story.

Andrew: Let’s talk about parenting a child and introducing them to Harry Potter. I have a big question here because I have two nephews now. They’re still very young, too young for Harry Potter; three and about one year old. When is the right time to introduce them to Harry Potter? And Julia, let’s start with you. When did you introduce Wyatt? And I know you have a daughter, too, who’s younger.

Julia: I do. Zoey is 8. And I hope that I’m not a disappointment as far as a parent guest…

Andrew: Oh my gosh, stop.

Julia: … because we didn’t have any hard and fast rules for introducing Harry Potter. And I know of other parents who have had rules like waiting for a certain age, or not watching the movies until after they’ve read the books, which, I appreciate that rule; I didn’t think of it in time to enact that rule myself. [laughs] But we didn’t really have a specific age. Part of it is because we’re fans, we didn’t want to deny ourselves the joy of watching the movies when our kids were still little, so they had some exposure to especially the first couple of movies when they were young. But I think that that helps because it gives them an introduction and a curiosity to the characters and the storyline. We like to listen to audiobooks, and the great thing about audiobooks is that you don’t have to worry about the reading ability level of the kid; they can read something above their grade level. I think that Wyatt probably was maybe 6 or 7 when he first listened to Sorcerer’s Stone. But the funny thing about kids is that they love to listen to the same thing or watch the same shows over and over and over again, so literally he listened to the first book for over a year, every single night.

Andrew: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Julia: And so it takes a while to get through it because it’s like, “Okay, it’s been two weeks starting with Chapter 1. Do you think maybe we can start with Chapter 2 now?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, man. He’s going to know the books better than any of us.

Julia: [laughs] He’s 12 now and he’s read the first four books for sure. I can’t remember if he’s read Order of the Phoenix yet or not, so he hasn’t gotten all the way through the series.

Andrew: But has seen all the movies.

Julia: Most of the movies. I don’t think he’s seen Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I was going to ask specifically about Books 5-7, the later movies, because I know of parents that have said to us even, “We’ve read the first four; that’s totally fine,” but they wait a couple years; they really want to make sure their kids are old enough for the source material.

Julia: So he’s definitely seen Movies 5 and 6. This wasn’t any kind of conscious choice that he hasn’t read those books yet; this is just his own pacing.

Laura: I love that.

Julia: I think for sure he’s ready for it, and he… it’s fun, because he knows what to expect later. But there are things that aren’t explained in the movies that he’s picked up on, and we won’t explain those things to him. “Oh, sorry, you’ll just have to read the books.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: That’s great.

Julia: So it helps… it keeps him interested. And same goes for Zoey, too; she finally let me put on Chamber of Secrets for her to listen to at night after listening to the first book for, I don’t know, well over a year every night.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Laura: I love that you’re letting them move at their own pace. I get a little confused sometimes when I hear about hard and fast rules. I can understand if you’re a really big fan, if you want to decide that the kids need to read the books before they see the movies; that’s fine. But I was raised in a similar household, it sounds like, in terms of what you were allowed to read, where my parents were sort of like, “Hey, if she’s old enough to read it and understand it, then it’s fine.”

Julia: Absolutely. Yeah, not to harp on about audiobooks, but that’s the great thing, is that you’re not restricted to your grade level reading. If the interest is there, then go for it.

Eric: Yeah, my friend Angela is putting the… she actually just had her first child 14 days ago, but even in the womb just having audiobooks on was a big thing for her. She’s like, “We’re starting him when he’s young. He’s in utero and he’s going to listen to…”

Andrew: [laughs] When he’s zero.

Eric: I did ask for clarification; it is the Jim Dale audiobooks, versus Stephen Fry, which I probably think of as being more authentic. But yeah, I mean, you’re talking about audiobooks in the womb; this kid’s going to be a massive Harry Potter fan one day.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Julia: Nice. That’s awesome.

Andrew: Julia, is Harry Potter still a popular book for kids to read? Like, is it discussed amongst parents? Because obviously, it’s what, 20 years old now at this point? So I just wonder if people think about it for their kids, or is it just kind of an old book?

Julia: No, I mean… gosh, I think so, especially among parents who have read it before. I don’t really have a finger on Wyatt’s group of friends as to whether they’ve read the books or are into it, but his band teacher in middle school has Harry Potter stuff all over the band room, and kids are definitely aware of it.

Andrew: So it’s really thanks to all the adults who grew up reading it that kids are currently reading it.

Julia: I think so.

Andrew: It’ll be interesting to see, though, how it pans out over the next century. Maybe people will be listening to MuggleCast when they have nowhere else to turn, [laughs] and we’re all dead. But hopefully MuggleCast is still available for people to listen to. So final question for you, Julia, about this: The books have a lot of good messages, of course. Are there any bad messages that you’re like, “Eh, I don’t know if I want Wyatt thinking much about that”?

Julia: I think that there are examples of behavior that maybe isn’t great. When thinking of Harry as a role model, yes, he’s absolutely brave and super resilient, but he’s also very stubborn, and his whole “I’m going to do it myself” or “I’m going to suffer through this myself” is maybe not something that is a great message for kids to think about. But luckily for Harry, his friends are just as stubborn as he is; “No, Harry, don’t be dumb. We’re going to go with you.” [laughs]

Andrew: Right, yeah. I guess it also kind of becomes a problem when somebody’s listening to this book with stubborn Harry over and over and over again for a year.

Julia: Right.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Andrew: I mean, actually, I’d like… there was a TV show – I’m not going to say which – that I binged. It was six or seven seasons.

Micah: Blue’s Clues.

Andrew: And this person, this lead character in the TV series, was an egotistical buttface, and I felt like I kind of became that person after binging six, seven seasons of the show. [laughs] And I eventually broke out of it, but I can completely understand this potentially happening to kids who might read Harry Potter and experience stubborn Harry for an extended period of time.

Micah: Or want to get into witchcraft and start casting spells on other kids.

Andrew: [laughs] Well…

Micah: I’m just joking because of Laura Mallory.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Micah: But I do think, though, there’s something about letting kids read the book for themselves just at face value, and then if they do read it again, or as they get older – kind of like what we’re doing with the show – then you can reflect back on things that maybe are a little bit more adult in nature and maybe that you didn’t pick up on the first few times that you read the series.

Julia: I think overall the positive messages outweigh the negative messages. They might be things that kids might not pick up on the first time through, or even adults might not pick up on the first time through until really critically thinking about the books.

Laura: Yeah, and I would imagine that it opens up room for conversation, right? Obviously, if a really dark theme were to come up, it gives you room to discuss that with whoever is reading it, quite frankly. Not just a child, but you can do, to Micah’s point, what we’ve done here on the show and talk about things that haven’t necessarily aged well per se, or things that in retrospect, like when we were reading it as children, we didn’t think too much about it, but now it jumps out at us a lot more. And I think that it just, for children, it helps them develop those critical thinking skills.

Julia: For sure.

Andrew: To wrap up today’s discussion, I wanted to play a bit of a game with you all. I want to prepare our listeners for any situations they might face as an adult Harry Potter fan, and this segment I’m going to call “Troll in the Dungeon,” and it is inspired by Harry Potter actress Evanna Lynch, who plays Luna. She has a podcast called the ChickPeeps, and it’s a veganism and sustainability podcast, and they do a vegan Troll in the Dungeon segment where they pretend that they are facing vegan trolls. So you all are going to face some Harry Potter trolls now. And Eric, I have one especially for you.

Eric: Ooh, gosh.

Andrew: But Micah, Laura, and Julia, feel free to take on…

Micah: We need to get you music for this, though, by the way.

Andrew: I don’t think we need music, and you’ll find out why.

Micah: Oh.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: All right, so here’s the first troll. This is a person named Cletus, and when you answer, please address the person as Cletus, okay? I’m not in the room. All right. [in an obnoxious southern accent] I think Harry Potter is clearly for kiddies. All you see are kids on the cover, and when they opened that Harry Potter World down in Orlando, all I saw was that Dan Radcliffe walking around with the kids. In fact, whenever I see ads for anything Harry Potter, I’m just seeing kids in the ad, so clearly it’s not for you. So grow up, Micah.

Micah: Well, Cletus, thank you so much for calling into the show. Really respect what you have to say, but have to disagree. I can’t help but wonder, Laura, do you know this person? Do they live near you?

Laura: Um…

Eric: Why would Laura know this person?

Andrew: [still as Cletus] Not everybody in the south sounds like this, Micah.

Laura: In fact, most people in the south don’t sound like that.

[Julia and Micah laugh]

Andrew: [as Cletus] So why is Harry Potter for adults?

Eric: I would say that we were all children once, and even though we are no longer kids, we like Harry Potter because it reminds us what it was like to be a child. It was what it’s like to… you ever feel like the world is wide and you’d never quite understand it, and you ever feel overwhelmed? The Harry Potter books really capture that but in a fantasy way, and they have a lot of humor and adventure. I think it’s a joyful, joyous romp between three best friends as kids confronting the challenges of their day, and I think that’s something that we can all relate to, yourself included.

Micah: That was wonderful, Eric. And I would just add too, Cletus, I think that Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone would be a great first book for you to read.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Wow. Oh my…

Laura: I would ask Cletus, are you a fan of Marvel movies? Or DC movies?

Andrew: [as Cletus] Yeah, they’re all right.

Laura: Yeah, so actually, I think this is really great common ground for us to start out on. There was a time not so long ago where you would have been ridiculed for liking those things, because it wasn’t commonplace for adults in the mainstream to like comic book movies, and people would have made fun of you for that, so what you’re doing right now is kind of the same thing.

Andrew: Okay. Well said. Cletus has left the room.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Cletus, by the way, was the name of my character in The Sims Online when I was obsessed with playing that game. Cletus Poodum.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He wasn’t country, though. It was very strange. I don’t know why I named him that. All right, so the next person joining us is Alexis. [in a valley girl accent] You’re, like, still a Harry Potter fan? Didn’t you read those books, like, 20 years ago or whatever, Laura? That’s literally forever ago. Why don’t you move on to other things?

Laura: What things have you moved on to?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: [as Alexis] I love The Real Housewives and, like, Jersey Shore. All of these things are still new and fresh. But Harry Potter is, like, forever ago.

Laura: Well, I don’t know if you could call the themes of those shows new and fresh; they’ve basically been recycling the same content for two decades now. At least with Harry Potter there’s a deeper message and interpretation that can happen.

Eric: You know, a good Harry Potter book is like a good cup of coffee from Starbucks: everlasting.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Eric: I really have no more to add than that.

Andrew: All right, and this last one is for you, Eric. This is Herman. [in an old man voice] Hey there, son. I see you’re wearing what looks like a blanket, or like a backwards apron.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: [as Herman] What is that…? Is that a cloak? Why are you wearing a cloak? Do you think you’re a wizard? Because I have some news for you, son, you’re not a wizard. And don’t you get hot in that thing when you go down to Orlando? Why do you dress up as a Harry Potter character?

Eric: Well, sir, I find it to be an excellent way… dressing up in this outfit is an excellent way for me to channel parts of myself that I wouldn’t ordinarily express, and I do it because it entertains people, first and foremost myself. It’s just some play. It’s just some fun. And I never made it into any kind of professional theater group, so I like to try sort of a practice on my own, a little bit of flair for the dramatic.

Andrew: [as Herman] I see, I see.

Eric: Thank you for asking.

Andrew: Okay, that was it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: No, we need to introduce him to Elvis Dumbledore. I think he would really enjoy that.

Eric: Oh, yeah. There’s a rockstar from his age, yeah.

Andrew: [as Herman] Now there’s an Elvis Dumbledore? I can’t keep up. There’s too much going on these days.

Eric: Well, sir, I will get your grandchild to send you the YouTube link.

Micah: Then go back to sleep.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Andrew, you really put yourself out there for this segment. I love this. This was wonderful.

Andrew: Thanks.

Laura: That last one actually reminded me of a real world example. When we were at one of the Harry Potter conventions – I think it was Portus in Dallas – we were actually sharing our hotel with another convention, and so it was… and I’m not going to get into what they were there for, but we were worlds apart. We’ll just say that.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Jesus. You can just say Jesus.

Andrew: It was a Jesus con, wasn’t it?

Laura: Yeah, yeah. And at one point I was in an elevator and this guy was looking at me for a while, and then he finally was like, “Are you guys witches?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: [as Herman] Are you guys witches?

Laura: And I just looked at him stone cold and was like, “Yes.”

Andrew: And it’s situations like that why I brought Herman onto the podcast, because I think a lot of people see… let’s say in Texas where that convention was, outsiders see people dressed up in cloaks and whatnot and they’re like, “What the hell is going on with that?”

Eric: The getups you see on young people these days!

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Andrew: I mean, cosplay is a big thing in this fandom and many others…

Eric: It’s huge, yeah.

Andrew: … and so Herman just wanted to know more about it, but I think that was a very open and honest answer, Eric.

Eric: I will say – thank you – when I first started dressing as, at the time, a Gryffindor, I actually didn’t know and wasn’t trying to do cosplay, but actually seeing cosplay be so embraced to the level… it’s leaps and bounds above anything I’ll ever do. There’s people who turn into Transformers and have armor and they make their own armor and they use PVC pipes to have extendable wings. It’s really just… it’s the new way of showcasing some serious technological prowess and talent, but creative expression, the goal inside that I sort of hinted at, is the same. You’re bringing out parts of yourself that you don’t always get to do, and it’s a wonderful time.

Andrew: Right. I still give Eric a lot of credit for wearing those cloaks in Orlando in the dead of summer. Like, man. [laughs]

Eric: Well, because mine was full on cotton twill. It’s a heavy cotton. But now when you go to the park, the robes they sell are super lightweight. They’re almost jersey knit.

Andrew: Oh, okay. But it’s not authentic, then.

Micah: Time to upgrade.

Andrew: No, that’s not an upgrade. That’s not an upgrade.

Eric: My cloak could actually survive northern Scotland weather in the winter.

Andrew: Right, yeah. [laughs]

Micah: There you go. I just can’t wait for Cletus to meet southern Hagrid.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: [as Cletus] I don’t know who Hagrid is, but I guess I’ll find out when I read that Stone book you mentioned. [back to normal voice] All right, well, if anybody has any feedback today about our discussion about being an adult Harry Potter fan, about parenting a child and introducing them to Harry Potter, write in. MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can email that address, or you can send a voice memo there using your phone, or you can call 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. We also have the contact form on MuggleCast.com. No matter how you get in touch with us, we do read or listen to your message, and we can’t get back to all of them, but we try to get back to as many as possible, and we really appreciate reading all of your feedback. It’s super helpful and inspiring, honestly, because when we do this podcast, we’re not hearing from you in real time, unless you’re in our patron live chat. So we love getting the feedback throughout the week.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: What is Albus Dumbledore’s favorite flavor of jam? And the correct answer… now, this is his secret make-sure-he’s-not-an-imposter question. He tells Harry the answer to this: raspberry jam.

Andrew: He would.

Eric: Yeah, he would. I’m actually surprised; raspberry is like, tame for Dumbledore. You would expect almost a double flavor combination or something.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But LanceDance – who submitted this, the correct answer, to us over on Twitter, among with others – added this GIF that’s somebody with a martini glass shouting “Raspberries”? It’s a blonde woman? I don’t know what this is from. And she’s holding champagne. But anyway, now I think that raspberry is perfectly Dumbledore because I saw this GIF. Anyways, correct answers were submitted also by Ali Frega, Time-Traveling Unicorn, Chelsea B., Kati Jane, Ginny, Robbie, Tori, Grace, Thunder Boom, Chellearia, Billy, HallowWolf, ZoomTarot, Growler, Stephanie, Darren, Caleb, and Deb. I guess I asked an easy one this week, you guys.

Andrew: Yeah, a lot of answers. That’s good, though.

Eric: Thrilled by the participation. Next week’s question: What statue resides next to the prefects’ bathroom? Submit your answer to us over on Twitter at @MuggleCast. Use hashtag Quizzitch. Please do not post mail us answers to Quizzitch, please do not email us, please do not find me on other various social media, don’t LinkedIn me with answers… it’s strictly a Twitter game.

Andrew: [laughs] Peace and love, peace and love!

Micah: You’re not being very flexible.

Andrew: [laughs] Ringo said a few years ago on video, “Please do not send me mail anymore; I can’t take it. Peace and love, peace and love.”

[Eric and Julia laugh]

Andrew: This is Eric’s peace and love. “Tweets only, peace and love, peace and love.” I’m going to start playing that every time you say that. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. That would be a goop clip; I can hear Ringo saying that.

Andrew: We would also appreciate if you took a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast if they have a review system; thank you very much in advance. Also, follow us on social media; we’re @MuggleCast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. And coming up on our Patreon this week, we’ll have a new bonus MuggleCast about Fantastic Beasts 3 finishing filming, and we would really appreciate your support as well. We’re about to hit 500 episodes, and it’s only because of our patrons that we are hitting 500 episodes. When we launched the Patreon, the goal was to return to doing MuggleCast episodes on a regular basis. At first we said, “If we hit this goal, we’ll do an episode every other week. If we hit this goal, we’ll do an episode weekly again.” And we did hit that goal pretty quickly, and thanks again, thanks to our patrons, we are hitting Episode 500 of MuggleCast next week. What an incredible milestone.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Julia, you’re one of the people who supports us out on Patreon. Thank you very much, and thanks for joining us today.

Julia: Thank you, guys. This has been an absolute treat.

Andrew: Great. I know you were very excited to join us, and we were very excited to have you on the show. And give our love to Wyatt, as well.

Julia: Thank you.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Julia: And I’m Julia.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Julia, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #494

 

MuggleCast 494 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #494, Reviewing the Gadgets and Gizmos of the Wizarding World


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week we are going to discuss the gadgets and gizmos of the wizarding world, like what makes them tick and what makes them fun. We have a fun guest here with us this week, Dave Jorgenson. Hi, Dave.

Dave Jorgenson: Hi, everyone. I hope I’m the fun guest.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s you.

Dave: Okay, good. That’d be really funny if you brought someone else on like, “And here is the fun guest.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Dave, so you’re kind of a big deal on social media, actually. Tell us about yourself.

Dave: [laughs] Well, that’s… okay. I’ll pretend that’s true.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: Not at all. Yeah, I’m the Washington Post TikTok guy, both sort of a tongue in cheek title, but also it seems to be pretty effective at explaining what I do, which is make TikToks for The Washington Post.

Andrew: Yeah, very cool job.

Dave: Yeah. And I actually think, Andrew, I’d first connected with you beyond listening to the podcast, which was more of a one-way connection on Twitter. And I use Twitter a lot to highlight what I’m doing on TikTok, and it’s also just, for me, a fun outlet. I try to be one of the positive people on Twitter. Not all the time, but I do my best.

Andrew: So you’ve actually been a longtime listener of MuggleCast, right?

Dave: Oh, yeah. Since 2005. Since the beginning.

Eric: Wow.

Dave: I can tell you vividly about… I can remember my little brick iPod. It was one of the first video iPods, and I remember the Half-Blood Prince MuggleCast artwork. That’s what I would listen to while mowing the lawn.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: It’s all very clear. I told Eric all about this when I was on his podcast for like, a full two and a half hours. I couldn’t contain myself. And it really… it’s so exciting to be here.

Andrew: That’s fantastic.

Dave: And of course, the second I’m on this podcast after 15 years, my dog is like, “I’m going to just destroy the living room.” So I’m trying to…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: She’s excited too.

Dave: Yeah, she’s also very excited.

Andrew: Dave, you mentioned we connected. I mean, I noticed somehow one day that you followed me, and I’m like, “Wait, somebody from The Washington Post is following me? I’m going to give that a follow back!” [laughs] So that’s probably how we connected.

Dave: And as you can imagine – or maybe can’t – I was like, “Oh my God, Andrew Sims followed me back?”

Andrew: Oh, stop.

Dave: No, no, I won’t. I refuse to stop.

Andrew: Okay. [laughs]

Dave: I was very excited, and I still am. And then when MuggleCast followed me back, I’m pretty sure I tweeted it out; I was like, “This is it. I’ve made it. This is what I wanted.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, Dave, I mean, you’re a big deal too; you were recently named one of Forbes‘s 30 under 30. Come on, man. That’s awesome.

Dave: Thank you. It was very exciting. I was really happy for about a minute, and then I was like, “Oh my God, I’m almost 30.” So thanks for reminding me, Forbes.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Super cool.

Andrew: Well, you’re the youngest here on the panel.

Dave: Okay, cool. I’ll take that. That’s good.

Andrew: You’re bringing youth to this panel. [laughs]

Dave: Yeah, well, I think I’d also told Eric about this – and I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself – but you guys are frozen in time to me as MuggleCast 2005, which actually, to me, makes you way older, because I was this young kid that was like, “These are the coolest people I’ve ever heard.”

[Laura laughs]

Dave: And that’s still true.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Dave: Andrew is like, “Yeah, that’s us.”

Andrew: We are cool. [laughs]

Dave: Yeah, so that’s still… I’m trying to think of a comparison of… someone that had such an influence on you when you were so young is like imprinted in you as that person, so…

Andrew: Well, Dave, that’s really, really nice. I mean, thank you for saying that.

Dave: Of course.

Andrew: That’s flattering. As far as I’m concerned, I think we’re pretty good in terms of today’s episode. We can wrap it up now.

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: [laughs] We got everything we wanted out of this. Thanks, dude.

Dave: This was the promo… yeah, of course.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: No, I have to say, I’m a little bit overwhelmed in a very positive way, because your TikToks have really gotten me through this election season…

Dave: Oh, good.

Laura: … so I’m equally excited for you to be here.

Dave: Well, thank you. And I need that. As much as I pretend like I try to brush those aside, look, when people tell me that the TikToks have been significant for them in quarantine, I’m really happy, because there’s definitely mornings where I wake up and am like, “What am I going to make today? I’ll make an Invisibility Cloak!” So I appreciate the feedback.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, so you do tweet and make some TikToks about Harry Potter, too, right?

Dave: Oh yeah, I’ve had this Harry Potter thread for maybe a little over a year, and I just come back to it every so often.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: And the whole point is just picking apart things that happened in Harry Potter that make no sense, but in a way that is clearly for the love of the books.

Andrew: Right.

Dave: But I love to just really… that sort of situational humor of like, “Okay, we didn’t talk about how Ron didn’t get therapy after Peter Pettigrew was in his pocket for years.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Dave: I think that’s important.

Andrew: I was looking at that thread yesterday. It’s like, 100 tweets long at this point; you’re pointing out a lot of inconsistencies. [laughs]

Dave: Right. And the worst and best part is every so often, I repeat myself without realizing. I go back and look, like, “Oh my God, I already said this. I’ve already had this revelation.”

Andrew: [laughs] “I’ve already had this thought.”

Dave: “I’m thinking about this way too much.”

Andrew: Yeah. Have you seen any good Harry Potter TikToks recently, since you’re on there so much?

Dave: I have. I wish I could direct you to specific… you could honestly just look up “My first day at Hogwarts” or something like that, and it’s my new favorite TikTok Harry Potter genre, and there are many.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Dave: And it’s the sort of idea of just… like, “Me being the only Black girl at Hogwarts,” or it’s basically putting people in Hogwarts that you don’t see in the books, and it’s really funny because it’s not…

[Eric laughs]

Dave: To me, it’s the best version of satire because it’s like you laugh and then afterwards you go, “Oh, wait, that was a really good point.” So it’s really fun sort of just different takes on if this person were at Hogwarts, which is exactly what my whole Twitter thread is about anyway, so I definitely encourage looking up that.

Andrew: We were having fun with the “Pottah!” one that Tom Felton kicked off a month or two ago.

[Dave and Laura laugh]

Dave: Yes, so good.

Andrew: That was a good one. [laughs]

Dave: I never would have expected him to be kind of my… and I love all the actors that are in the movies, but he’s probably one of my favorite post-Harry Potter people. I don’t know. He always makes me laugh.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And he still celebrates Harry Potter, which I think is really cool.

Dave: That must be a big part of it.

Andrew: Some of the actors, I think they try to move on, like Dan Radcliffe, but Tom Felton is still like, “Let’s still talk Harry Potter, sure! Let’s do it! Come on!”

Dave: [laughs] Exactly.


Main Discussion: Gadgets and gizmos of the wizarding world


Andrew: Anyway, so like I said, we are going to discuss the gadgets and gizmos of the wizarding world. And we thought that Dave would be a great guest, since he’s passionate about Harry Potter and the show, and this is a fun discussion to be had. And I know, Eric, you came up with this discussion, so why don’t you take it away?

Eric: Yeah, so what is, I guess, a gadget? We should define that for starting this discussion. But I had a very loose definition while figuring out what qualifies and what doesn’t. It’s basically a magical device; a magic augmented device – so it’s something that maybe we do have in the Muggle world, but there’s a magic aspect to it – usually handheld, but not always. And it, I guess, exists to improve the life of wizards, helps them go about doing their stuff. It’s like if an iPhone were magical, right? An iPhone is such a cool technological communications device, and it has apps and helps with organization. That kind of thing is like a gadget, and we see it in the wizarding world. Usually, it’s a lot more simplistic, right? It’s something that has a particular charm on it, like Hermione’s beaded bag, “Oh, an Extension Charm,” things like that. So it’s a wide gamut, but I’ve broken it down into 13 gadgets that we’re going to be talking about today. I think that’s a good number.

Andrew: Yeah, a good number. Yes, this episode is cursed. Go on.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, wait, I added one, so it’s 14. So we’re not cursed anymore.

Andrew: Oh, phew! Okay, good.

Eric: [laughs] But yeah, so we’re going to be talking… so each one… and Dave, I know you’ll have fun with this. How does it work? We’re going to be asking, “How does it work?” because a lot of these as I was going through, I was like, “Wow, a lot of these do not actually make sense.” Also, do we like it? Is it a cool gadget? Do we think that it’s…? If we had it, would it help us out? Would we want one of these? And also at the end, kind of related but not, how much would we pay to have one in real life? How much is this worth to us as a gadget? And so yeah, that’s really the only bones of the discussion. We’re going to go chronologically through the books.

Dave: All right.

Andrew: Okay, let’s do it.

Eric: So let’s start with the very beginning. It’s a very good place to start. Chapter 1, we see the Deluminator, or what is referred to in the chapter as the Put-Outer. It’s Dumbledore’s Put-Outer, and at first, it seems to exist to just take all the lights from a street – say Privet Drive – and basically allow a wizard to go forth unnoticed under the cover of darkness. And that’s pretty simple. Basically, he clicks it one each time to get the light out, and then at the end, he clicks it and they all flutter back to the street posts where they were. And in the movie, I love the effect. I think this is a beautiful kind of a thing.

Andrew: And the fact that they changed the name of it was very bizarre to me.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: So it’s referred to as the Deluminator I think for the first time in the will-reading, when Scrimgeour is like, “This is what this is called.” It’s the official name, versus… I think what it is, too, J.K. Rowling’s humor in Chapter 1, because she just showed something that puts out the light; it’s like, “Dumbledore clicked the Put-Outer,” and it’s all in caps.

Andrew: So she didn’t feel like naming it properly.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: She was just like, “The Put-Outer.”

Eric: It was being identified by its function, which kind of is quirky.

Laura: To be fair, I think the point of the first chapter of the series is to introduce us to this world from the viewpoint of a Muggle, right? So what would a Muggle call that thing?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Put-Outer.

Andrew: The thingie that removes the light. That’s what she should’ve called it.

Micah: Well, I was also thinking, too, it is Sorcerer’s Stone, so maybe a bit of a child’s book versus Deathly Hallows. Maybe she felt she could grow up the Put-Outer a little bit.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Grow up the words? Age up the words?

Eric: Well, I mean, “Deluminator” is proper Latin, basically. It’s a bit too much for Book 1, right?

Micah: To me, Dumbledore just stole the clapper.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh my God. Thank you for saying this, because that’s what I was thinking going into this and I was like, “I’m not going to be that person who’s crapping all over the Deluminator.”

Micah: I’ll do it, Laura. I’m here for you.

Dave: I’m happy to deliver on that too. To me, the Put-Outer is kind of like she wrote something just to remind herself to change it, and then forgot, and they published the books.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Like, “Okay, I’ve got to bring this up again later so I can change it.”

Andrew: Right. “You guys, I wasn’t done with that one, but okay.”

[Andrew, Eric, and Dave laugh]

Eric: Okay, she does change it up quite a bit. So it does come back in Book 7, but here it is shown to have an additional, way unexpected feature. And by the way, Scrimgeour, I think, says it’s a device of Dumbledore’s own making, so they don’t really have… you can’t get this at the local Walgreens or at whatever the wizarding equivalent of Sharper Image is. This is something that Dumbledore made himself. And we see that when Ron uses it to get back to Harry and Hermione, and basically he clicks the Put-Outer in his bedroom, he’s missing them, he thinks he hears her voice emanating from the Put-Outer, he clicks it once, the light goes out, another light appears outside his window, and then it flies into him – I’m summarizing – but then Ron is confident that he will be able to Apparate, without knowing where Harry and Hermione are, directly to them. And more or less that works. So there’s something here about light and love, right? Two huge… love is such a huge theme in Harry Potter, but Dumbledore’s little Put-Outer has some kind of way supernatural love connection thing.

Andrew: So when the light comes in Ron, it just kind of steers him back to Harry and Hermione?

Eric: Yeah, it’s like it’s the coordinates he needs. He’s thinking about them when he Apparates, but he’s been trying to reach them ever since he left them, right? But he can’t because they’re under such secrecy and protection. But because Hermione I think in a moment of weakness talks about Ron, it’s the first time that she mentions his name in that whole time since he left, and he hears it and that’s when he gets the idea that like, “Okay, this thing of light is going to help me get back to them,” and it’s very intuitive. But so Dumbledore… this Put-Outer either always had that feature, or Dumbledore added it throughout the years, knowing that he wasn’t always going to be around and he was going to give it to somebody in his will.

Dave: And changed the name and got the patent and all that.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I love that this is a multipurpose tool, though. It takes out the light, but it also steers you back to your loved ones in times of trouble.

Andrew: That’s beautiful.

Eric: Well, and I was thinking, how are they related, right? How is light related to…? And this may be overthinking it, but what do we do on this show? How is light relating to…? Don’t you feel lighter when you have love in your life? Or when you think about a loved one, don’t you feel like a million bucks?

Dave: It seems like the… what’s the…? I don’t know; the “cure” is not the right word. But it’s the opposite of what the Horcrux was doing to him, too. Literally description-wise it seems like it’s what brought him back versus what pushed him away.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: Dumbledore must have created this fairly early on, because didn’t he use it in Crimes of Grindelwald? Or was that scene cut?

Andrew: Oh yeah, yeah.

Eric: Gives it to Newt and… or no, he uses it? Yeah, yeah, in Crimes of Grindelwald.

Andrew: Yeah, with Newt. They’re out on the street, I think. I don’t know if you see it. I guess we do.

Micah: I think it was in a preview, but maybe it never made it to the final cut of the movie?

Andrew: I wonder what it was called back then.

[Dave and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Put-Outer or something even more…?

Dave: Just a lighter.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: We touched on this, but how does it work? Do we think there’s…? Is there any other kind of magic that we know is like this?

Andrew: No. [laughs]

Eric: We’re going to get into this as we go through, but in order for this to function, there has to be something magical associated with light in general, right? Light has to have a device ID, like when you… I’m trying to think of… because the magical world, to snuff it out, has to first identify what it is you’re getting at. So I don’t know; it’s a very… I guess Lumos brings light and Nox extinguishes light, so maybe it’s a way of doing Nox but not with your wand; you’ve extended the field of range, right?

Dave: It’s like a Patronus without all the effort. He doesn’t have to think of happy thoughts; it just happens.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, it’s sort of like a light vacuum. I don’t think we’re actually going to be able to explain how some of these work to an extent.

Eric: No, we will fall short. But even just thinking about either Nox or a Patronus, something similar like that, I think there’s value in saying, “Oh, it kind of does work like that.” Is this Cool or Not Cool?

Andrew: I’m going to say Not Cool.

Eric: Really!

Andrew: Because as somebody who believes wizards should not be hiding in the shadows like Dumbledore does with this device in Book 1…

[Dave and Eric laugh]

Andrew: … I can’t approve of using such thing, so Not Cool.

Dave: I’m Team Not Cool, but not at all for that reason. But I love that. It’s good.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: Micah, I’m so sorry. It’s the exact reason that you might think it is Cool, which is that I feel like it is a Swiss army knife, but when you add all these things, it’s like the pair of scissors in the army knife; you’re never going to use it. I’d rather it have just been this pure device that lit up lamps. For me, that’s what I wanted. I just wanted a really cool Put-Outer. I don’t know why I’m so purist in that way, but that’s how I feel about it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m also going to have to pile on here and be on the Team Not Cool, gang…

Andrew: Ooh.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: … because I’m going to add to what David just said: It seems like it should be a really simple device that does a very simple thing for you, and we find out after seven books, it’s actually a security and privacy risk.

[Dave laughs]

Laura: Whoever has it can just Apparate to wherever somebody is, even if they don’t want to be found? No.

Eric: Well, they have to love that person.

Laura: Well, okay, stalkers can love people, I guess.

Eric: Euhh… look, Dumbledore does not do anything simple. He does nothing simple, so I like that after seven books, we get this secondary purpose of the Put-Outer. Is it a little convenient? Sure, but she needed to bring Ron some way back to the crew. So I’m going to go Team Cool. I might be the only one.

Micah: I’m going to go Team Not Cool.

[Laura laughs]

Dave: Yeah!

Micah: Sorry, Eric.

Andrew: It’s a miracle we kept reading these books after that first chapter. We were all unimpressed.

[Eric laughs]

Dave: I put it down for ten years, and then a podcast brought me back.

[Andrew and Dave laugh]

Dave: That’s not true.

Micah: Here’s the other thing… I think, Andrew, you mentioned security? Or Laura?

Andrew: Laura did.

Micah: Laura mentioned security; sorry. Dumbledore creates tools that are security issues, which is no surprise considering he runs a school which is a security nightmare, so no, it’s Not Cool.

Eric: This flows into how much is it worth? How much would we pay for this? I mean, this device, I think even Scrimgeour says it’s priceless. It’s something that Dumbledore made before he died; it’s probably the only one in its existence. I don’t necessarily find myself needing to turn out a bunch of lights all at once, not that are connected to a switch.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: So I don’t know that I’d pay too much for it, but I’d say around $50 or so.

Micah: Where would you buy it? A pawn shop?

Eric: Yeah, if I found it somewhere, I’d be like, “Oh, this is pretty neat.”

Micah: Borgin and Burke?

Andrew: It’s a black market item. I don’t think I could put a price on it, because they would want a head for this item or something.

Laura: [laughs] A head.

Dave: I think I would pay for… even though I’m on Team Not Cool, I think I’d pay a lot for it, because I feel like I’d want to just have it. You just said it’s priceless. The fact that it’s one of a kind makes me want it more; it’s that whole trick of the mind.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. Okay, well, that’s the first gadget done.

Andrew: I think we just deflated Eric because we all said his first one was Not Cool. [laughs]

Eric: I’ll try and pick cooler gadgets, you guys.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Damn. I have to quick rethink everything. Here’s a cool one. So we learned about this in Book 1: It’s Wizard’s Chess!

Dave: Yes.

Eric: This qualifies as a gadget or gizmo that’s magically enhanced, because although we have chess as Muggles, these chess figures are imbued with nothing short of life and sentience, and there’s a lot of weird stuff going on. But basically, you have these chess sets, and they will criticize you if you suck at chess, but they actually move and destroy each other, and at the end of the game, we assume there’s a repair process. But yeah, it’s like a lifelike version of chess. Chess is supposed to simulate kings, battle on the battlefield in medieval times between kings and queens, kings and other kings… and so here it is, but it’s alive.

Dave: I love it. I love it exactly for what you just said. I like the idea that… I don’t know if they really say this in the books, but that maybe some of them are actually giving bad advice because they have their own motives. Like, “I’m a knight; I can do this.”

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: I just love the idea that you would have to not only be playing your opponent, but you’d have to be playing your pieces to make sure they’re not giving you terrible advice because of their own self-interest in killing other knights or whatever.

Eric: Oh my God, I never thought of a bloodthirsty knight from a Wizard’s Chess set. That would be amazing.

[Laura laughs]

Dave: I would buy that one immediately.

Eric: Well, because Ron’s set does heckle him. Or is it Harry’s? Harry gets heckled by Ron’s set, I think. Something like that.

Dave: Yes.

Eric: Because Ron is actually a chess pro, as we learn. His efforts down in beneath the school save them all at the end of Book 1, and then it never comes back again. But yeah, Wizard’s Chess is Cool. I think how it works has something to do with transfiguration, right? I mean, it seems to be McGonagall’s branch of magic that really brings the chess pieces to life, and the large chess set was her version, or her entry, into the protecting of the Stone.

Andrew: I think this is a very cool one as well. This is one, actually, I could see existing in the real world one day. Pieces being able to move by themselves on a board. I don’t know about fighting each other or… maybe insulting you, because if the board can understand where each piece is on the board, I think this could exist in the real world.

Eric: I’m surprised it doesn’t.

Laura: Well, it does. I’m looking on Amazon; there is a $350 digital revolutionary chess computer set that’ll talk to you as you move pieces around.

Andrew: [gasps] Oh my gosh.

Laura: So there you go.

Eric: There have been games that try and do something similar, but as far as full-on animation, there was a Lego Chess 3D game that came out that kind of did this, and I thought it was cool.

Andrew: Also worth noting, there is a Harry Potter chess set that looks just like the Wizard’s Chess in the movies.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And I have this and it’s very good, but it does not obviously come to life.

Dave: Not yet.

Andrew: But would recommend that, yeah. Also, this is a great item to bring up because chess is super hot right now, thanks to The Queen’s Gambit on Netflix.

Eric: Oooh, yes.

Andrew: Haven’t seen it. Want to watch.

Eric: Yeah, that sounds amazing. So the other thing that I think of it as being valuable is we see these characters, for humor, are at odds with their chess sets, but I feel like I would learn a lot, because I consider myself to be pretty good at chess, but I am not strategic at all. I’m always reactionary. So if I had a chess set – and of course, your pieces want to win – I would look to be informed. I feel like I could really, really learn and understand chess if my own set were talking to me. And maybe it would be a little, I don’t know, angry at first, if I were that bad, but it’s a really good tool. It’s a good educational tool.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Dave: I think also for me as someone that likes to… I like to learn on my own. With any game, I want to be really good at it before I take on an opponent. [laughs] But I like to imagine that this would also have a play yourself thing where the other side just has a computer “playing” against you, so you can practice, then with your pieces telling you what’s a good idea. I love that whole concept.

Micah: Does a simple Reparo spell fix all the pieces that have been shattered? Because I don’t know if I want to be shelling out money every time I play a game.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: Ron has, what, Bill’s old set or something? So they probably Reparo themselves. I don’t even think you need to be good at Reparo. I think that they are bewitched in such a way that when the game is over, they just reset. That’s my imagination. But these sets… we’re going to get into how much we’d pay for them, but a lot of them tend to be passed down, we see. Ron, for instance… he inherited his; it was one of his brother’s old sets. So when you get a new one, you pass it down; that kind of thing. So there’s a lot of replay value in them, I guess, is what I’m saying. Anyway, do we all think it’s Cool? Do we have our first unanimous “This is Cool” gadget?

Dave: Oh, yeah. Super cool.

Andrew and Laura: Yes.

Laura: I love chess anyway. And also, you brought up a really good point about the replay value and the passing down of sets through the family. It really seems like it allows you to build strategic thinking through being a general of sorts, and really forming a bond with these pieces, which sounds weird if you take this out of context, but…

Eric: They’re plastic, Laura.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Or stone. Mostly stone.

Laura: But no, no, what I mean is that over time… imagine getting a chess set as a child and growing up with that. I think that this is one of the areas actually where Ron’s character development suffers because we see early on in the series that he’s a pretty good strategic thinker, and then we don’t really see it again, not really. So I’m Team Cool for that reason.

Eric: What would we pay for a set of our own?

Dave: $350 on Amazon.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I was going to say the cheap, which is $36 on Amazon, but yeah, I think $350 for that higher end one.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: Here’s what I’m going to say, though: In the wizarding world, this type of chess set is a normal chess set, so presumably, you can get reasonably priced versions of them.

Dave: Yeah, that was my assumption too. It seems like it’s just a regular game.

Laura: So maybe 50 bucks to get a little bit of a nicer set, but not break the bank.

Eric: They’re so ubiquitous. They’re everywhere. Which leads you to believe, what do these chess pieces do when your player isn’t around? When they’re not playing? Are they allowed to just wander around?

Dave: They talk to Krum and his remaining limbs.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Is it like a Toy Story or Indian in the Cupboard situation?

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: Probably, yes. Lock ’em up. Don’t trust ’em.

Micah: They just smack talk each other the whole time.

Eric: [laughs] Like the portraits.

Micah: Exactly, yeah.

Eric: Okay. Well, let’s move on to Book 2: the flying Ford Anglia. This is an interesting one for talking about is it alive or not, but it’s a car that has had the ability to fly given to it by Arthur Weasley. And also, it can turn invisible, and in some instances, it seems to respond to Harry and Ron’s improper driving of it. And by Book 5, it becomes totally wild and it lives in the forest and goes about of its own volition.

Micah: And weren’t we supposed to see it again and we never did?

Eric: I think that’s right.

Micah: Was that another false J.K. Rowling promise?

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: I think I remember this.

Andrew: “Book 7 will end with Harry flying in the car”? Is that what she said?

Dave: It comes out to fight the giants.

Micah: Yeah, the last word was actually supposed to be “car,” not “scar,” but she bailed on both of those.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I really want to know what Arthur… I love the idea that Arthur Weasley, who loves tinkering with Muggle items, went so far as to do everything that we see that this car does, but asks, “What spell would make this car drive itself?” It’s not enough that it flies and goes invisible.

Andrew: Right, it does have a mind of its own.

Dave: I like that about it. I don’t know if it’s meant to be a commentary on artificial intelligence or anything, but I do like this idea that it’s just this whole… it’s beyond Arthur’s control at this point, and Harry and Ron’s, and I just like that it’s this wildcard of a gadget, I guess you could say.

Andrew: What’s also interesting about it is that there’s always been this dream of flying cars in the real world, and maybe J.K. Rowling was commenting on that possibility in the future. I think even 30 years ago there was talk of, “Oh, there’s going to be flying cars by the year 2020,” which, of course, we are still extremely far away from. This is another one that I can see existing in the Muggle world one day. Hopefully a little more reliable, though.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Eric, I think Dr. Brown used a Time-Turner and consulted with Arthur.

Eric: I think he did. I think he did.

Andrew: That’s a Back to the Future reference.

Micah: It is.

Dave: Oh, I’m on it.

Andrew: Just for anybody who doesn’t know.

Eric: 1989’s Back to the Future – Part 2 showed flying cars by the year 2015.

Andrew: Oh, well, we are very behind schedule.

Dave: I mean, the Cubs won the World Series. They got, like, two things right at least.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: But actually, Dave, what you were saying about… I think, too, that people personify their car, right? People give their cars names and treat it like it has a personality, so I think it’s a natural extension to then have J.K. Rowling incorporate a car that is actually partially alive.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. Speaking to the car’s personality, we have to remember it went wild in the forest, but it saw that Harry and Ron were in trouble, and it was like, “Okay, I’m coming,” and then it booted them out.

[Dave and Laura laugh]

Laura: Or is that a movie-ism that it booted them out? I don’t recall. But yeah, I mean, it seems to have some moral compass as well, which is very cool.

Andrew: However, I would not be on Team Cool for this car, because it’s a beat-up old car. It’s just not modern. Yes, it’s cool that it flies…

Micah: It’s so Weasley, though.

Andrew: … but it’s not a car I would want to be seen in driving down Hollywood Boulevard.

Laura: Oh my God. It’s just because you hate the Weasleys.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, that too.

Micah: The car itself is so Weasley, though. It’s beat up. It’s old.

Andrew: Actually, I think we have call this car Cool because it’s in our album art.

Eric: Oh, we’re obligated.

Micah: Who made that mistake?

Andrew: Best car ever.

Micah: Photoshop.

Andrew: Love it.

Laura: I was going to call it Cool anyway.

Andrew: Okay, phew.

[Laura laughs]

Dave: I’m fully Team Cool. My only thing is that I wish it had appeared more. I mean, you guys alluded to it, but I wish it had just… every time they’re in the forest, it’s just like, “Hey, what’s up?” and then drives away. It doesn’t have to be a plot. It could just drive by and that’s it, just like, whatever.

Laura: I mean, where was it when Harry and Hermione went into the forest with Umbridge and Hermione was accidentally prejudiced towards the centaurs? Would’ve come in real clutch in that moment, so that Hermione wouldn’t put her foot in her mouth.

Dave: I specifically remember reading that and thinking, “Where’s that car?”

Laura: [laughs] “Where is it?”

Andrew: “Come on out.”

Eric: It could have just run over Umbridge and then they’d all be safe. What would we pay for this car? I mean, Andrew mentioned it is an older model. It’s kind of rusted.

Micah: Well, where did Arthur get it first off?

Andrew: A junkyard.

Micah: Did he steal it from work?

Andrew: That’s a good question. Yeah, maybe it was at work. Maybe it’s one of those things where nobody claimed it, so Arthur was like, “I’ll take it.” Or maybe he just found it and fixed it up like any good American does. They love to fix up cars.

Micah: It’s such it’s such an Arthur thing, though, right? He’s like the dad working on the car in the garage. It’s a Muggle thing to do, so it’s right up his alley.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: And Molly would just be like, “Oh, that Arthur, he’s spending so much time in the garage. He’s such a dad.”

Andrew: “He loves his car more than me.”

Dave: I remember that line.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I feel like Arthur would be delighted if he knew a Muggle wanted to buy this car off of him, and he would accept whatever amount of money we wanted to give him, Muggle money…

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: Oh yeah, totally.

Laura: And then he’d take it to Molly and be like, “Look what I did,” and she’s like, “Hey, dumbass, we can’t spend this.”

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: “They gave me a William Henry Harrison dollar coin for this.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Hubby, you’re such a dumbass.”

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: Arthur could not give this car to a Muggle, though. They could not be trusted with a flying car. It would end in disaster.

Eric: It would break the Statute of Secrecy.

Andrew: Well, that, and it would just end in disaster. They would drive it into the ground or people or something.

Laura: I mean, there’s a reason why we don’t actually have flying cars, and it’s because people are bad enough at driving on the ground.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Okay, moving on to Book 3, we have a couple of gadgets. The first is the Monster Book of Monsters. I call this a gadget because it’s clearly been bewitched; it is otherwise just a book. It’s like… when you were kids, did you have any of those books that play sound where you push a button and it’s a companion to the book? It’s like that. This is what I think of when I…

Micah: But it tries to eat you.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But it tries to eat you! Plot twist: It’s actually a monster. And I love the… not the alliteration. What is it? But that it’s a book about monsters and it’s shaped like and is a monster. I love that. I love that creativity that comes into thinking of it.

Andrew: Yes. However, this is an extremely dangerous product. And while I appreciate the idea, I cannot say that this is Cool. It’s just dangerous. Why would you want to read from this book? It could bite your hand off at any moment. [laughs]

Dave: Well, to me it’s cool in concept, but I don’t think I’m alone when I – maybe I am alone – I would get so annoyed with Hagrid whenever I would reread that part. He’s like, “Oh, you just tickle the spine.” Like, Hagrid. You could have told so many people this, days, weeks ago. You could have told the the bookshop owner.

Eric: Put it in the book list.

Dave: Yeah, it could have been right there, but whatever.

Micah: I’m so glad you said that, Dave, because that’s exactly the point I was going to make. It’s just another example of how Hagrid is not a good teacher. He’s assigning books that can potentially do serious damage to his students without any thought whatsoever.

Eric: And who are the publishers that refuse to put a disclaimer on the front of the book? A lot of things… a simple sticker or something saying you’ve got to stroke it. At least inform the bookseller who’s got several bandages on each of his hands. He takes one look at Harry; he’s like, “Hogwarts? Ugh,” and goes to put special gloves on to get the Monster Book of Monsters.

Andrew: I enjoy seeing it at the Wizarding World theme park where they have it in a cage, where it belongs, because it’s deadly.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But am I going to hold one of these things?

Micah: I think I have one here somewhere.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I guess there’s better ways of… better books that are going to teach you without the risk of injury. I don’t think it’ll bite your hand off, but it will certainly hurt.

Dave: Do we know how long between spine ticklings it lasts?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s a good question.

Dave: How often are you tickling the spines?

Andrew: If I were reading it, I would just be tickling it nonstop.

Dave: [laughs] That’s what I do with all my books anyway.

Eric: In my mind it’s soft like rabbit fur, and so you’d want to stroke the spine.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: [laughs] What?

Eric: Yeah, it’s like really soft fur.

Andrew: Do you stroke rabbits, Eric?

Eric: We all have pets here. You ever pet a dog and it’s a nice experience? Maybe it’s a little warm under the fur, so, you know, probably a pleasant experience.

Andrew: A little warm.

Dave: That’s actually how I got my dog to calm down, by just tickling her spine and she fell right asleep.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Dogs do love scratches.

Eric: Anyway. But yeah, so it’s probably pretty dangerous. Also, “monster” is an offensive term, and I do not appreciate that. I bet all of the creatures discussed in the book would not like being called a monster.

Andrew: Oh, well, I mean, look at it, though. What else are you going to call it? It’s a monster. It’s horrific. I’m sorry, Monster Book of Monsters, but you’re a beast.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: So I’m willing to join Team Not Cool because I think it should come with a disclaimer. Is anybody on Team Cool?

Micah: Oh, I think it’s cool. I just think it’s dangerous.

Andrew: I’m on Team Cool from a distance.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: I also am at a distance wearing sunglasses looking at it, but not near it.

Laura: I’m going to be on Team Cool.

Eric: Oh, wow. So I actually thought I was joining the crowd in going “Not Cool,” but I’m the only one.

Andrew: No, I’ll join Not Cool.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Laura: As the point was already made, it’s cool from a distance. It’s cool because it’s dangerous, and lots of dangerous things are cool.

Eric: I think it’s probably a couple of Galleons in the book. I haven’t looked it up. But what would we pay? $20? Maybe $30?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Dave: I’d be interested in what a hand-me-down one would be like. Has it been tickled enough that it’s a little more tired?

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Is this the case where you’d go to the used book part of your school store or whatever?

Andrew: Does it come with a little info sheet to share just how dangerous it’s been over the years? Because I imagine that some of these books have worse temperaments than others.

Dave: People that have checked it out and lost hands have written it in.

Eric: Moving on to possibly the most useless gadget of all time, the pocket Sneakoscope. So Harry was given one – a small one, actually – by Ron while he was in Egypt. And okay, it goes off and zooms around when there’s a problem, when somebody near you is being untruthful, but Harry is in one of the biggest boarding schools in England, and it really doesn’t seem to have a built-in capacity to tell you what is amiss. It’s kind of like the Remembrall, right? The Remembrall – we didn’t mention for Book 1 – shows up, lets you know you’ve forgotten something, but there’s no means by which it tells you what you’ve forgotten. The Sneakoscope is like that. It doesn’t really seem to indicate anything useful. It’s a useless object, I feel.

Dave: I’m with you. It feels like it’s something… it’s almost like an identifier. That’s how you know if someone’s paranoid, if they own them. That seems to be more…

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: Oh, it informs the character of the people who own it more than it does act as a useful item? I feel like there’s things in the real world that do that. I can’t think of one. Oh, maybe it’s like, remember Bluetooth headsets when it was just the one ear and everybody was like, “Oh, if you have that you’re a prick”? [laughs]

Dave: Right.

Andrew: People looked funny wearing those.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s like that, where it’s like, “Oh, you have a Sneakoscope? Oh, you’re paranoid. Okay, great.”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I agree.

Eric: But honestly, the magic behind this is pretty interesting, right? Because it seems to be a device that is clued into the id, or the inner thoughts and inner motivations of people around you.

Andrew and Dave: Yeah.

Dave: I do like the sort of… what’s the word? It’s not… I can’t… there’s a very obvious word I’m not thinking of. But it doesn’t necessarily define the evil around you; it just… I like that sort of magic where it’s not just straight on the nose; it’s just telling you something is amiss. That’s fun for reading a book. It’s not fun in real life, I don’t think.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Dave: But it’s a nice mystery in a Harry Potter book.

Eric: Actually, Hermione thinks it’s cool enough to give Harry another one for his 17th birthday.

Dave: Very cool.

Eric: I mean, that’s in Deathly Hallows. She’s giving it as gifts as late as Deathly Hallows, so I guess he can use it while he’s on the road, figure out if anybody’s…

Dave: It reminds me of when my oldest sister turned 18, the Christmas before she went to college, my parents just got her a bunch of suitcases, and I always thought that was so funny.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Suitcases. Very useful.

Andrew: “Hit the road, kid.”

Dave: Yeah, that’s what it’s like. It’s like, “Well, you’re an adult, and things are going to get real tough.” [laughs] That’s what it feels like.

Andrew: Gifts get boring when you get this old.

[Eric laughs]

Dave: Exactly.

Eric: Where are we landing? On Team Cool or Team Not Cool?

Andrew: Not Cool. I like what you said about what it says about the owner.

Dave: Yeah, Not Cool.

Laura: Not Cool. I feel like also, you should be able to trust your gut instincts. You shouldn’t need this.

Andrew: Don’t leave it up to a device.

Eric: People could be… yeah, people will rely less on their intuition, which comes from a lot of evolved factors, if they have something like a Sneakoscope to tell them.

Micah: Yeah, I’m going to go Team Not Cool. I agree. It seems like it’s something that… it also doesn’t tell you exactly what – I know this got brought up – but what’s wrong? What’s happening that you should be reacting to? Who should you not be trusting, or why should you not be trusting them? Is it serious? Is it not serious? No pun intended. And I just think that it doesn’t pass the test for me.

Eric: So we all, if we were gifted one of these, would probably regift it in a couple of years, right?

Andrew: Yes. I wouldn’t pay a Sickle.

Eric: [laughs] Not one Sickle. But here’s something I think we’d all pay a lot for, possibly. Let’s talk about it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: A Time-Turner! You guys, this is also introduced in Book 3; of course, Hermione uses it. It allows the wearer to travel short distances in time.

Andrew: For now.

Eric: There’s a discrepancy between that and the Cursed Child as far as how back you can go. Although the one in Cursed Child is a prototype, so I don’t think it’s contradictory. I think on the show we talk about how contradictory it is. I don’t think it’s contradictory. But also, unlike the book, in the Cursed Child they appear to change the past. It turns out in the book that they don’t actually change anything; it’s just that their interpretation of events that occurred the first go around were wrong. So time in the third book is a closed loop, so if you go back in time, here’s the catch: You can’t really change anything. But if you had a different perspective on what happened, you can be proven wrong. So whether or not you can change the past is up for debate, I think.

Andrew: I’m very split on this device, because it is cool, but it’s so dangerous being able to mess with time, so I almost don’t want to call it Cool because I don’t want to encourage this type of behavior.

Dave: Any listeners with a time travel device.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yes. We’re very influential here; we must be cautious.

Dave: I like it for the reasons you already laid out, which is, to me, it’s the perfect thing I can point to what I like so much about the books and did not like about Cursed Child, which is that it’s much more of a much smaller, smarter plot device that makes for such a great book, whereas in the play, it’s just like, “We’re traveling 20 years and anything could happen,” and now it’s like all the time travel rules are… I don’t know, I just really like the measured, realistic version of if time travel were real, that it can only be a few hours that you would travel back. And that just makes a lot more sense to me and is a lot more fun.

Laura: I agree.

Eric: I’m trying to think what I would use it to do. If you go back in time, you can’t become yourself again, so you’d have to get your old self out of the way if you wanted to influence events directly in your life. And if you wanted to influence something else, what would you go and do? How would you get the motivation for that and be like, “I need to go back in time and do this”? So maybe… oh, buying a winning lottery ticket would probably be the one thing I could think of. Otherwise, it’s just like what Hermione uses it for. Attend more school classes. Get more done in a day.

Micah: If you get your old self out of the way, though, you’re assuming you’re the same age, or that you look exactly the same.

Dave: I look very different than I did three hours ago.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Showered, for one.

Laura: I think I’d use it… I always thought about Hermione in this book being so exhausted and I was like, why? You can go back in time and take a nap. That’s what I would use it for. I love naps.

Eric: [laughs] Just extra naps.

Dave: Well, I mean, sports games are an obvious… I don’t know if it’s ever been at all confirmed, but the idea that Fred and George somehow got a Time-Turner seems to not be implied but a possibility with them knowing the of events of the Quidditch World Cup. That would be a very good use of it. I mean, it’s illegal.

Eric: Sports betting, yeah. Gambling, self-enrichment… I agree. I think that that’s where this device skews on the moral ground.

Micah: Yeah, but we’re all assuming things are going to be done for good, whereas there are plenty of people who would go back in time and use it for nefarious purposes.

Andrew: True.

Eric: So in solidarity do we all say it’s Not Cool because it’s too dangerous?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I think it’s Cool.

Andrew: I’ll say it.

Laura: Yeah, I think it’s Cool.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I wouldn’t buy it.

Eric: We’re like, “It’s still pretty cool.”

Andrew: You guys are sick.

Eric: I mean, magic wise, it bends time and space, and that’s cool. Muggles are still trying to do that.

Andrew: It’s cool in theory. It’s cool to read about in a fictional world.

Dave: I mean, in terms of the… this is so silly, but the way they designed it in the movies and how I imagine in the book, it looks really cool. I love just it being this necklace. I love that. Like the DeLorean; it’s a cool vessel.

Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s a very popular merchandise item for that reason.

Eric: If we could get one, what would we pay to get one?

Andrew: It should be very expensive, given its benefits.

Laura: Yeah, I’m not going to feel good about using this if it’s really cheap.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it needs to be a high quality Time-Turner.

Eric: You travel a couple hours back in time but when you get to the present, you have different parents or something. Like, “What did I do? I Marty McFly’d it.”

Andrew: You should also have to take some sort of test or they have to give you a background check or something to make sure you might not use it for those nefarious purposes that Micah mentioned.

Laura: I mean, I don’t know. They gave it to a 13-year-old, so…

Dave: But she had to have a lot of people sign off on it!

[Dave and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, McGonagall was putting her career on the line for that. So here’s a device from Book 4 that is… I’m actually surprised how similar it is to the Time-Turner. It’s the Omnioculars. You’re not exactly going back in time, but you can replay time. We see this at the Quidditch World Cup; it’s mostly used at the sporting event. You can do all sorts of… you basically see something in real time, you can slow it down, you can watch in slow motion… so I don’t know how that works because it’s not specifically video. It seems to be some kind of reality-bending viewpoint thing. But it’s cool.

Micah: This is trash.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I mean, we have replay, we have cell phones, we have cameras…

Dave: DVR. TiVo.

Micah: What does this do for you?

Eric: It also goes backwards.

Andrew: I think it’s super cool for that reason.

Dave: This would have been written, what, in 2000? So I think when it came out, we didn’t really have that.

Andrew: Good point.

Dave: I remember it being a lot cooler, and then I get DVR and I’m like, “Okay, well…”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Video killed the radio… instant replay in regular life has killed the Omniocular craze.

Dave: Right, that’s how the song goes.

Andrew: Now you film something on Instagram, and then it immediately replays it over and over and over and over until you finally post it, which is just like Omnioculars.

Eric: I will say, for people who attend live sporting events, you don’t necessarily get the live replays. As somebody who doesn’t know anything about football, I need the TV version of football, where they draw the lines and show me where the ball has to go and all that stuff. I know I just revealed huge ignorance here, but I rely on that kind of a thing. And so Omnioculars would be totally the thing that I’d pay a couple Galleons for at the match to figure out… and it also replays. When there’s a tough play, when there’s something close, the ability to really look and see it for yourself from wherever you’re sitting is a really cool feature that I don’t think has been overridden right now.

Dave: You’d have people in the crowd throwing their Omnioculars like, “Look at this! I got this replay, ref! I got the angle!”

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: “It’s a touchdown.”

Eric: Yeah, good point, actually.

Dave: You kind of turned… I think it’s cool now.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m on Team Cool.

Laura: I think it’s cool for the functionality. I also think it’s an accessibility thing, too; even if we were to place this in modern times, people in the wizarding world aren’t going to have smartphones. They’re not going to work.

Andrew: Yeah. Micah, you’re a sports guy. You have to like this.

Micah: Eh, I know. I also… in the books it was always like a hit on the Weasleys; like they’re so high up and Harry has to buy these binoculars essentially to be able to see what’s going on even though it’s a event that occurs mostly or all in the air.

Dave: Right. That’s a really good point. I never thought about the fact that they’re in the nosebleeds should be a good thing.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, no, it’s actually probably one of the best seats to have. It’s not terrible. Not Cool.

Eric: Okay, Team Decent. We’re inventing a new team for Micah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Team Decent?

Eric: Team Decent.

Andrew: “It’s fine.”

Micah: Team “Aight.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: In terms of how much to pay, I’d say $30-50.

Eric: That sounds about right.

Andrew: Sounds like a common item.

Dave: Does he pay 10 Galleons? Or is it 30?

Eric: He pays 10 Galleons. Okay, here is another interesting gadget that I’m calling a gadget: It’s the Quick Quotes Quill that Rita Skeeter uses to transcribe instantaneously Harry’s side of the interview that she is giving him. We see it mostly in that one-on-one interview between Rita Skeeter and Harry Potter. Kind of interesting. I think something that transcribes a meeting would be all the rage on college campuses. If you’re taking lecture-style notes, it would be amazing. The one thing that’s kind of a knock against it, but maybe not, is it has a flourish to it. It kind of embellishes.

Dave: I love it.

Andrew: That’s a huge knock. That’s fake news.

Dave: It is, literally. That’s why I love it. It’s so great to read in the book.

Andrew: That’s why you love it?

Dave: [laughs] Well, yeah, that’s a terrible thing. Don’t get that on record.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: No, I just mean I love it as a story-telling device where it’s like, this is how tabloids work. They’re showing you in real time where… Harry is getting a glimpse of the version she’s writing as he speaks. I think it’s one of my favorite chapters in the whole series, is when they’re in a closet, a broom closet, and this thing is…

Andrew: It is a genius scene.

Eric: “My eyes aren’t glistening with the ghosts of my past!”

[Dave and Eric laugh]

Laura: I always interpreted this as her Quick Quotes Quill sort of mimicking her personality, so maybe not all of these would behave in this way. But various devices we see throughout the wizarding world have personalities of their own, that mimic the people they belong to. We see this with wands, for example. I can see a Quick Quotes Quill really melding its personality to its owner, so maybe a more honest journalist’s quill wouldn’t do this.

Dave: I like that. And that’s almost like autocorrect or whatever on your keyboard on your iPhone starts to learn how you type things, so it’s sort of the same. It’s personalized to you.

Laura: Yeah. Because of that, though, I can’t figure out why when I type a certain word, my iPhone always autocorrects to “duck.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I know; it’s so frustrating. Apple doesn’t believe in that other word, I guess.

Dave: The best for me is “ducking.” I like that they’re like, “‘Ducking’ is a word, though.”

Eric: [laughs] So yeah, like I said, it also has just those implications in education. I’m going to say it’s Cool, because I was a note taker that could do with better notes.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: When you’re writing notes, you’re also doing it in kind of a shorthand, and it’s 50/50 – or in my case, 30/70 – whether or not I’d be able to actually interpret what my shorthand was because I was trying to keep up with the speed of dialogue of conversation, so that’s kind of an issue.

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, definitely from a note-taking perspective so long as it’s accurate, but if it’s this Rita version where it’s not transcribing the truth, then it’s a problem.

Micah: You’d have a lot of trouble, Andrew, on your exams. I mean, imagine the things it would write down.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I know.

Dave: Yeah, I say Cool with a huge caveat in the right hands. Not cool in Alex Jones’s hands, but maybe other people.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I’m going to say Cool just because I never write by hand anymore, so when I do find myself in a situation where I have to write by hand, my hand cramps up really bad.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Dave: Yes, me too. I’m glad I’m not alone.

Andrew: [emotionally] “Where’s my keyboard? I can’t take this anymore!”

Eric: And what would we pay for it?

Micah: 20 bucks.

Andrew: It’s a glorified pen, so $50.

Eric: Let’s do the Foe-Glass from Book 4. Here’s an interesting one. It’s a mirror, like a magic mirror; I wonder if that’s the reference. It shows you who your enemies are, but apparently they’re kind of foggy, indistinguishable figures in the mirror until they are literally at your door. So it tells you who your enemies are, but in the case of Moody… here’s a quote from Goblet of Fire:

“Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody’s face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape, and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass. He looked around and saw the three of them standing in the doorway.”

So it’s not really a useful tool, because by the time you see the whites of the eyes of your enemies…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, what exactly was going on here with the Foe-Glass?

Dave: I mean, it’s not unlike the Sneakoscope. It’s like, “Here comes your foes and… but… here they come!”

Micah: I don’t know; I could see this being useful if this was something Moody had in his office at the Ministry when everything was at the height of Voldemort’s first run. You don’t know who’s loyal, who’s using Polyjuice, who’s under an Imperius Curse… all sorts of things, so maybe it would be helpful in terms of showing who is truthful.

Dave: Right. It makes sense for impostor Barty Crouch, Jr., too, because… maybe it doesn’t work this way, but if his true foe is someone who’s against him in that moment, then he knows he’s in trouble. But if Dumbledore was coming to his office, and there’s no shadow or whatever, outline, that means Dumbledore doesn’t realize he’s bad yet, I guess.

Eric: Oh, yeah, so it’s more for what it doesn’t show.

Micah: He also has to play the part, too, of Barty Crouch, Jr., so having something like that in his office would make sense for Moody. The big thing for me from this scene always – and I know we’ve talked a lot about it over the years on the show – is that this is one of those first moments where you could go back to and say that Snape is in fact good, because he shows up as an enemy of Barty Crouch, Jr.

Eric: Good point. But I think it could also be like the Quirrell thing where he rationalizes it as, “I was against Quirrell because I thought he was doing it for selfish purposes. I wasn’t trying to impede Voldemort’s rise.” Cool or Not Cool, guys?

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, just because of how it could be helpful.

Dave: Yeah, Cool for me, but I would never really buy it. I hope I don’t need to.

Micah: Agreed.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, I look into it and I see nothing, because I have no enemies.

Dave: [laughs] That’s right.

Laura: I’m going to say Not Cool, because I feel like it would make me extremely paranoid. It reminds me of… you know how you can have cameras to monitor your pet when you’re not at home? I had one of those for a while and I found that I was obsessively checking it because it was there, and I had the option to be like, “Oh, let me make sure the dog’s not dead or some kind of crazy thing.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: And it just made me more paranoid just to have it, so I think that it would not be good for me.

Eric: I’m going to join Laura on Team Not Cool. I think by the time you can make out who it is that’s coming for you, it’s too late.

Andrew: Any magical glass object in the Harry Potter series is probably not very good for you.

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: The Mirror of Erised drives you crazy…

Dave: The personal gift from Sirius Black that you destroy immediately.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Right, yeah. Theses are all trouble.

Eric: That really have a chance at being cool.

Micah: I think it’s cool.

Andrew: Yes!

Micah: But I agree with you. I don’t think I would purchase it.

Eric: Here’s the next one that I don’t think any of us can put a price on: the Pensieve.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just so dangerous again.

Eric: Wait, how is it dangerous, though?

Andrew: Well, I just think revisiting memories can be very dangerous. It’s not good from a mental health perspective.

Dave: It is sort of the BuzzFeed ’90s articles of magic.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, but I’m also thinking about… let’s say you’re still hung up on a relationship or something, and you’re just reliving those scenes over and over.

Eric: Okay, I can see that.

Andrew: “I’m sorry, you guys. I’m going through a breakup right now; that’s all I can think about.”

Laura: You don’t necessarily have to revisit your own memories, though. It can give you really interesting perspective on historical events, as we see in the book, so I think it would be very cool. I’m already Team Cool on this.

Andrew: Are you going to go dig up George Washington and pull out a memory from his head and then…?

Dave: “Were your teeth wooden or not?”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, sadly… they weren’t.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, no. Awful.

Laura: We’ll move on from that. I like, Andrew, how you went straight to digging up a dead body, though. I like that your brain went there.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, you said you want to remember history. I don’t know how you would do that.

Eric: Presumably, there would be a Smithsonian of memories from ancient wizards that were kept in vials.

Dave: Ooh.

Andrew: That would be fun.

Eric: You wouldn’t have to violate a grave.

Andrew: [laughs] Because somebody else already did for you.

Eric: This would be a library of… you could check out a vial and then pour the vial into the onsite Pensieve and then go and look at history from historical figures. The implications are amazing. I’m firmly Team Cool. And I like to believe that although you could Eternal Sunshine it and maybe have some unhealthy habits around relationships – I love that sort of implication – I’m mostly focused on how awesome it would be and how much good perspective you could get out of seeing yourself and how you behaved but from a third person perspective. I think that could only bring you good insight.

Dave: And to bring up another 2000s romantic comedy, 500 Days of Summer. The whole premise at the very end is that he was just remembering the good parts. And so you could argue there’s something healthy about going back and going, “Oh, this wasn’t as good a memory as I thought.” And I don’t remember if this is how we first are introduced to the Penvise – [laughs] Penvise. The Pensieve. Anyway, I remember that Dumbledore says something about how he’s using it to actually free himself so he doesn’t have to think about other things right now, and so he’s actually freeing up. And I’ve really always… the older I get, the more I’m like, “I would love to have a Pensieve just to not think about these things right now so I can get through the rest of my day.” That aspect of it is really cool.

Laura: That is very true.

Andrew: Dave may have swayed me.

Micah: Yeah, Eric, I liked what you said about the Smithsonian. That really is very cool. I just don’t know how hygienic it is for everybody to be dunking their face into the same pool of water.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I’m sure there’s a workaround.

Andrew: They replace the water.

Eric: It’s sanitized after every use.

Micah: Okay.

Laura: Yeah, and there’s probably a buffer period.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s actually a tub of Purell that you stick your head into.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It would burn the eyes.

Andrew: [laughs] You’re screaming in the Purell. [screams] “Ooh, but look at this memory.” [screams]

Laura: No, I mean, just wear a mask and everything will be fine.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, but it would be… although, I guess we should say memories can be altered, so maybe it wouldn’t be the cinema verité of the wizarding world. But no big deal. I think it’s cool. Anybody say Not Cool?

Andrew: No. I still think it’s dangerous, but I still think it’s cool.

Eric: That’s cool.

Micah: Cool.

Eric: And what would we pay for it? I could see a common household Pensieve going for something like… let’s see, more than a dish disposal, more than a… [laughs] I’m trying to think of other household appliances.

Micah: Oh, I was going to go, this thing is probably worth at least a couple hundred grand.

Andrew: Whoa! Couple hundred grand? Well, nobody’s going to be able to… I was going to say a couple thousand.

Dave: I think he’s right. No, I think he’s right.

Andrew: Geez.

Laura: Yeah, this is not something that you could just have as a standard household item.

Andrew: Yeah. And like Laura said with the Time-Turner, you want a high quality Pensieve.

Eric: I think everyone should be able to utilize this sort of a thing. I think it would be less than a car. I think it would be less than 20 grand.

Dave: That would be awesome. Well, before I forget, I just remembered this. There was… it was not a Smithsonian thing, but it was a sort of museum deal where they had a bunch of directors create this experience where you were on the Mexico/US border, and they’d put you in this dark room and they put a backpack on you, and they put headphones and an Oculus type thing on you, and you’re the only person; they did it one person at a time. And there was like, 50 feet in front of you and you had to be barefoot, and you’re walking in the sand, and it was a fully-acted short film with 20 or 22 actors all doing different things at once, as they were trying to attempt to cross the border. It was really intense. And I remember thinking, “This is the Pensieve experience.” And I was trying to treat it as if… [laughs] Because I’m the Harry Potter fan that I am, I was trying to treat it as if I were Harry walking through memories, and remember how he would go sit next to different people and focus on what individual people were doing?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Dave: This was the same idea, where all these actors had different roles, and even if they weren’t speaking, they were supposed to be doing something and it went on forever. It was very emotional, too. So I don’t know. Basically what I’m saying is the experience already kind of exists, and it’s really amazing.

Eric: We have four gadgets left to talk about. Also from Book 4 – but also in Book 7 – Wormtail’s silver hand. The reason I call this a gadget is because it’s kind of like it functions as if it’s a prosthetic hand, but it’s also got very magical properties to it and presumably some sentience. So I think it’s a gadget. It’s a gadget, right?

Dave: I think so.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: It’s silver, so it’s like metal and… yeah.

Eric: It doesn’t kill werewolves, though. We thought that that was going to be a thing.

Dave: I remember that. I think that was in the What Will Happen in Book 7? book.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: It’s very Darth Vader-y.

Laura: I’m going to say Team Not Cool, because there’s something homicidal about this and I just don’t…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I don’t need that in my life. Like, why would I pay for something that might kill me?

Andrew: Not Cool and extremely dangerous.

Eric: Yeah, it does not… it has a different autonomy. Wormtail doesn’t have full control over it, so that is highly problematic. You never want to buy a device that does not work as designed, right? So that’s Not Cool. [laughs]

Dave: I also think maybe part of the reason… I would say Not Cool, but also because outside of the obvious event where Peter Pettigrew’s arm stops himself, he doesn’t really use it. Does he? I mean, I remember a couple instances where they… but he doesn’t seem to…

Eric: Don’t we see at first…? Doesn’t he crush something?

Dave: That’s the first thing he does, and I was like, “That’s awesome!” And then never again.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It’s really sold really well at first. He crushes something into bone, or something into dust.

Dave: Yeah. And then, again, that’s basically it for the hand outside of the one big event.

Eric: No, because the next time we see him in Book 6, he’s serving tea.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: You don’t need a silver hand to do that! If you had a silver hand, you’d be competing in strength competitions, arm wrestling… you’d be doing all sorts of stuff.

Micah: Exactly.

Eric: So Wormtail underuses the device he has.

Dave: I’m also on Team Wormtail Not Cool.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It’s basically like a monitoring device for Pettigrew, right? Once he essentially is willing to betray Voldemort – even if he doesn’t realize it – it kills him. So that’s Not Cool.

Eric: That’s honestly true. It’s presented as a reward to Wormtail for years of service, but ultimately, it is just a tracker. It’s just an ankle monitor that will kill you.

Dave: Does it become a little rat paw when he transforms back into Scabbers?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Now that would be cute.

Eric: If it didn’t, you’d just have a rat with a human…

Dave: A giant silver…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Maybe that’s why we don’t see him infiltrate anything as a rat in the later books, because when he transforms, it doesn’t. And he can’t run away.

Dave: I hope so.

Eric: Okay, this one is a short one. From Book 5, it’s mentioned when they go and sit their OWLs that a banned device that you can’t take in is an Auto-Answer Quill, and what it is described to do is that the quill automatically answers a question that is asked in its presence. This would always give you the right answer on a quiz on a written test.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: This is amazing.

Andrew: So I kind of had an item like this.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: Really?

Andrew: I took a history of rock and roll class, and I cheated by using Shazam during the listening portion of the test.

Laura: Oh my God.

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: And it always gave me the right answer. Yeah, I’m ten years removed from that test, so I’m comfortable coming clean about that now.

Dave: The statute of limitations has lifted on that test.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They can’t prosecute you.

Andrew: Right. But that said, even though I am a cheater – and shame on me – I think this is a very bad item. Right, Laura? The teacher?

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, to be used in the context of a classroom, yes, this would be a really bad item. I would not allow it. But I think overall, it could be really useful. I mean, it’s kind of like Siri. It’s like a voice assistant. You can very easily get quick information if needed.

Dave: Okay. It’s like a Google pen.

Laura: Yeah, as long as it’s not used for cheating, I think it’s fine.

Eric: What would we pay for an Auto-Answer Quill? This is kind of like carrying a calculator into math class, right? Just as an assistant.

Dave: But does it have Block Dude on it? Or whatever the other games were.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Does it upgrade automatically? Or it just knows?

Eric: That’s the weird thing. Magically, it has to pretty much be omniscient and know everything in order to…

Dave: That’s an interesting question, though. Because for instance, if a Nimbus 2000 could upgrade to a 2001, probably not. That’s why you buy a new one. You know what I mean? It’s just a spell on a broomstick for the most… except in the movies, it’s like an entirely different broomstick, but still.

Eric: I did leave broomsticks off this overall list, but I recognize that they’re very similar. And also, they have multiple spells and charms and enchantments on them that keep… the Quidditch Through the Ages book actually details all the various types of things you need to worry about when doing a broomstick, so brooms are Cool.

Micah: Well, and here’s the other thing: Is it just short answer? Or is it longer form answer? Because I feel like this would be great for Ron doing homework.

Dave: Flashcards.

Laura: I have to think, though, if he was using that on homework assignments, his teachers would totally know.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: You just have a… as a former teacher, if I got something turned in that was plagiarized, it’s like an alarm bell just goes off in your head, and you know.

Andrew: Right, you’ve got to be smart about it. You’ve got to incorrectly answer some of the questions so they don’t catch on.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Or Ron would have had to do it from day one, so that every teacher thought his long answer essays just had that voice of pure truth.

Laura: And they’re like, “Why…? In class, he just seems so different from his homework assignments.”

Eric: [laughs] Well, let’s move on to Decoy Detonators. This is the first gadget we’re talking about to come from Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes joke shop. And it is a weird-looking black hooter type object that when dropped, will scurry off and make a loud noise just out of sight. Also, even when not in use, a Decoy Detonator will attempt to do this, though without setting off a noise. I don’t know what that’s about. It’s just… these things hop around and create distractions and it’s good for getting out of class.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: Oh, that is the original purpose. I forgot the original purpose. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, or making your life more interesting. Obviously, the trio use these to great effect in Deathly Hallows, and especially the movie really captures the weird-looking black hooter-type object. I was like, “What is this?” It’s a little horn with those legs that you wind up. It’s almost like a windup toy.

Andrew: Yeah. You see these a lot in video games, like the new Spider-Man game.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, because sometimes you’ve got to sneak around.

Laura: Yeah, Team Cool because I’m not a very subtle person and I’m also kind of clumsy, so I feel like if I were in a situation where I needed to be stealthy, I would need to depend on something being just really loud and attention-grabbing so that I could get by.

Micah: Doesn’t Harry set this off in the Ministry, too, and it’s also some sort of fog that gets created?

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, I think you’re right.

Micah: That’s more effective to me than just making a lot of obnoxious noise. But yeah, I think they’re Cool, but I don’t really see the use for them in this day and age. I don’t know what they’re ultimately going to do for you.

Dave: I think it would just make my dog crazy.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: So I’m already… as with any decision in my life, now I go, “Well, I can’t have that; it’s going to scare my dog. I can’t have this magical object.”

[Eric laughs]

Dave: I feel like also, the Hand of Glory is more effective too. That feels like a the same thing but way – I don’t know – cooler.

Eric: Yeah, that’s an interesting point.

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, because I could see this being helpful.

Eric: Okay. I don’t know where I’d use it, but I’m not willing to say it’s Not Cool, so I’m going to go Team Cool.

Dave: I’m going to say Not Cool for my dog, who just made a weird noise as some kind of confirmation.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: And that leads us to the last gadget that we’ll be talking about. Listeners can, of course, submit more that we didn’t talk about; maybe we’ll bring a new discussion back later. But we mentioned this at the top of the show: Hermione’s beaded bag. I call it a gadget.

Micah: I want to know why she didn’t just throw Harry in there when things got a little hairy.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: I agree.

Eric: He’d still have to fit through the… well, I guess you wouldn’t, because a book won’t fit… I was thinking that if you could fit through the original, the initial drawstring…

Dave: Opening.

Eric: … because a book could fit in the bag but anything bigger couldn’t.

Andrew: Harry has broad shoulders; he couldn’t fit in there.

[Dave and Micah laugh]

Micah: I agree with Laura, though; it speaks to Hermione’s preparedness as they get ready to go out in Deathly Hallows, and it’s just really amazing, all the things that she is able to put inside of that bag. And I think this is one of the top items, Eric, that you put together for today. I think it’s worth a ton of money. It’s very cool.

Andrew: And just think how much money it would save you when you’re flying. You don’t have to bring multiple bags; you just bring one carry-on.

Dave: Oh, my sister, that could have been her 18th birthday present.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: A single bag. Yeah, I don’t pay baggage fees because I fly Southwest, so I don’t know what you guys are talking about.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: But yeah, I think that you could probably make them on the cheap, too, right? Because presumably, it’s just an Extension Charm, which Hermione… I think they learn those in… at some point, it’s got to be easy magic. If you can master an Extension Charm, you get a regular old carpet bag or handbag of any size, put an Extension Charm on it, and boom, you’ve got a ton of storage.

Dave: I always like to think about… I think it’s in the books or it’s somewhere that in order to create that extra space, you have to… it’s a physics law in the magical world that that space has to come from somewhere. So I just like the idea that there’s storage containers somewhere that actually are holding all this stuff, or… I don’t know. That always cracked me up that there is a space somewhere, even if it’s literally in outer space, where all this stuff is actually being kept.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really interesting.

Micah: It’s almost a pre… well, I guess precursor is not the right word because it happens technically from a timing standpoint after Fantastic Beasts, but it is kind of like Newt’s suitcase.

Dave: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I mean, we see Extension Charms in anything from Newt’s suitcase to even the car that they get from the Ministry to take them all to King’s Cross that one day, where it basically looks like a car on the outside, but when you go in, it’s got bench seating.

Micah: The Knight Bus has a bit of that going on too.

Eric: Yeah, oh, the Knight Bus? Absolutely, as well as an outward flexibility agent where they can get squished and not feel it. Yeah, so were we all Team Cool on the beaded bag?

Dave: Very cool.

Laura: Yeah, this is definitely Team Cool. I also think about going to the movies. This would be so convenient. I don’t know if I’m the only one who does this here, but I don’t buy concessions at the movies.

Dave: Oh, I do it too.

Laura: Yeah, and so having a way to very stealthily get into the theater without bringing a backpack…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: … being like, “No, I just carry this backpack with me everywhere full of snacks.” That would be cool.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m Team Cool as well. For sure.

Eric: But what would we pay to have one?

Andrew: I would pay a lot because it would just be so helpful.

Dave: Yeah, in almost any situation, really.

Andrew: I’d pay over a hundred.

Eric: Oh, God, if you’re hiking… think about if you’re hiking, you can have your tent, all your gear and supplies, but it wouldn’t weigh as much as all those items because it would just weigh whatever the bag weighs on the outside.

Andrew: Perfect.

Micah: I’d say a couple hundred.

Eric: $500, maybe?

Dave: $600? $700? I don’t have the money really at all.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: But I would pay ten grand. I think it’s worth that amount, if I had it.

Andrew: Just think of how much it would save you in baggage fees; it would pay for itself! Unless you’re flying Southwest, Eric.

Eric: So I wonder if this is the most valuable item that we… oh, but the Pensieve was 20 grand, though, right? Or more.

Andrew: Somebody said hundreds of thousands.

Eric: Hundreds of thousands of… okay, so behind the Pensieve. It’s interesting to be like, “The beaded bag is really up there.”

Andrew: But most useful, I think you could call this.

Eric: Yeah, very practical. There’s something very practical about it. Well, that, I think, concludes our discussion on gadgets. Thanks, everyone.

Andrew: Great. Yeah, that was fun.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, so it is time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What is the first thing Harry ever buys in Diagon Alley? This was in regards to we were talking about Diagon Alley and buying things, particularly fan-made things, on last week’s episode. The correct answer is his robes, his Hogwarts robes. Right after leaving Gringotts, Hagrid sends Harry to buy his robes. So the correct answers were submitted by Bort Voldemort; Billy Reardon; Jason King; and Chelsea Bromley. Congrats, everyone.

Laura: No Count Ravioli? Where’s…?

Eric: No Count Ravioli this time.

Laura: Okay. All right.

Dave: I just told her before this that I was doing the MuggleCast podcast, so that’s hilarious.

Eric: Oh, really?

Dave: Yeah, she’s married to another friend of mine. He runs the Steak-umms TikTok account, actually.

Eric: Oh, the Steak-umms TikTok?

Andrew: Oh. My. Gosh.

Laura: Wow.

Eric: That’s the best account of all time.

Dave: Yeah, it really is.

Laura: What a small world.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow. Yeah, Count Ravioli did not participate. Where in the world is Count Ravioli? We miss you; come back to us. Anyway, next week’s question: After the first task, what does George hear when Harry opens the Golden Egg? This one’s a fun one. Submit your answer to us over on Twitter at @MuggleCast with hashtag Quizzitch.

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s gadget discussion, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com, or send us a voice memo so we can hear you. Just use the Voice Memo app on your phone and then email that file to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Dave, thanks so much for coming on today. It was awesome having you!

Dave: Guys, thank you so much. I did my best to contribute, but also, I was in awe. It’s like you’re inside one of your favorite movies, so it’s my own Pensieve. So thank you. This has been great.

Andrew: We’re talking back!

Dave: I’d love to come back.

Andrew: We would love to have you back! Hell yeah.

Dave: Every week. I’m just kidding.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: No, but please let me know.

Eric: Check out Dave’s TikToks. Check them out over, obviously, on TikTok. They’re also on Twitter; he threaded them all. Also, if you’re looking for an introduction into the first hundred something TikToks, check out the episode of my podcast “Thank You for Spieling,” where Dave was on. He was kind enough to join us. But we go through the narrative and the thoughts behind all of his old TikToks, so…

Dave: It was a lot of fun.

Eric: You’ve done like, 200 since then, dude. You will not stop.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: No, I can’t stop.

Eric: We’re so outdated.

Dave: Won’t stop. The Miley Cyrus of TikToks.

[Andrew and Dave laugh]

Andrew: [sings] “He can’t stop…” Dave, what’s your username on Twitter and TikTok?

Dave: Twitter is easy; it’s just at @DaveJorgensen. And then it’s actually the same… I do have my own personal account on TikTok that I’ve barely used.

[Eric laughs]

Dave: But I had to start it because I have a book coming out next year, so I’m excited to use it as a…

Andrew: Whoa!

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Dave: Yeah, I was telling Eric, if you tickle the spine, it starts dancing like a TikTok for 15 seconds.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Dave: Or something like that, yeah. But no, the bulk of the TikToks are at @WashingtonPost, and every weekday I post two, sometimes three, so by the end of the week there’s 10-15 TikToks there that are both informative, and sometimes just very silly.

Andrew: Awesome. What a job. That is so cool.

[Andrew and Dave laugh]

Andrew: Cool. So thanks again, Dave. It was really awesome. And thanks for listening to MuggleCast all these years. I’m glad we connected.

Dave: Of course.

Andrew: And we’ll have links to Dave’s Washington Post TikTok and his personal Twitter in today’s show notes. You can also follow us; I mean, we’re not as big of a deal as Dave on social media, but we are @MuggleCast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Thanks, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. We’ll be back next week with one more episode for 2020. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Dave: And I’m Dave!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You are! You’re a MuggleCaster!

Micah: Well done.

Eric: One of us! One of us!

Transcript #469

 

MuggleCast 469 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #469, Why J.K. Rowling Is Wrong About Trans People


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: So on today’s episode, we will be discussing J.K. Rowling’s tweets and her blog post about trans people from last week. We believe as a group that these comments were wrong and hurtful on multiple levels, and the purpose of this episode is to explain why we feel this way, and we’re hoping to educate you and give you perspective. And later, we will discuss how we go from here as fans and as hosts of a Harry Potter podcast, because this really did shake the fandom over the past week. And while we hope to enlighten and change minds, I also just want to add that we will probably not talk about this again, because J.K. Rowling has made it abundantly clear where she stands now, and we don’t need to keep digging into this. We are a Harry Potter podcast; we want to stick to Harry Potter. And I know a lot of listeners might be saying, “Why do you guys have to talk about it?” Because it’s important, and we really do believe that. And to help us discuss this today, we’re joined by our friend Dr. Sarah Steelman. She has a PhD; she is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in LGBTQ+ affirmative practices. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Steelman: Hello, I’m happy to be here. I wish it was better circumstances, but teenage me is thrilled nonetheless.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yes, Sarah has been a longtime listener of the show. We’ve met her many times; we’ve hung out many times. She is a wonderful person. And we’re so excited to have you here because you really know what you’re talking about. I think the rest of the panel here will be the first to admit we’re not experts; we are not perfect when discussing these types of topics, so we wanted to bring on somebody who has expertise here.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you touched on it earlier with the education piece: This show today is not just about educating our listeners. In many ways, it’s about educating ourselves as hosts. And I think that that’s exactly why Sarah is here; she is the expert. And I know we’ve gotten a number of emails, we’ve gotten a number of tweets about not rushing to judgment about this particular situation, and I would say that’s exactly what we’re not doing, right? That’s why we have an expert on. That’s why we’ve taken a couple days to digest everything that’s been put out there. And hopefully, people take something away from the show today.

Laura: And before we dive into our main discussion, we did want to give a brief trigger warning. Today’s show will contain a lot of unaffirmative and transphobic language. Due to the nature of the discussion, these words and quotes will need to be said as they were written without correcting the language to be more affirmative. If hearing these words is too triggering for you, please protect your mental health, and it is okay to pause or stop the episode as you need. If you need support, we do have a couple of resources to point you towards. You can call the Trevor Project at 866-488-7386, and you can also call the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860.

Andrew: So we recorded Episode 468 last Saturday morning, and we go and try to have a peaceful weekend. And I’m sitting on the couch, bored out of my mind, refreshing Twitter, and here comes a tweet from J.K. Rowling. She shares an article with the headline “Opinion: Creating a more equal post-COVID-19 world for people who menstruate.” She quotes this link; she says, “‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?” She’s mad that they used “people” instead of “women.” And of course, people started freaking out because she was once again being transphobic. And of course, RIP her mentions immediately.

Eric: This isn’t just an errant like. This isn’t what publicists may refer to as a middle-aged moment. It’s not J.K. Rowling following people. People have been telling us… trans listeners have been writing in for ages saying, “These are problematic. This is what J.K. Rowling is doing. She’s friending all these people who are self-described gender critical,” etc. This was J.K. Rowling in the middle of nowhere, seemingly apropos of nothing, finding fault with a politically correct statement.

Andrew: Right, while she was back on Twitter to promote this new free children’s book, like she brought up in her blog post.

Eric: Like she said.

Andrew: So RIP her mentions. Then Rowling follows up with a Twitter thread, and she says, “If sex isn’t real, there’s no same-sex attraction. If sex isn’t real, the lived reality of women globally is erased. I know and love trans people, but erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives. It isn’t hate to speak the truth. The idea that women like me, who’ve been empathetic to trans people for decades, feeling kinship because they’re vulnerable in the same way as women – i.e., to male violence – ‘hate’ trans people because they think sex is real and has lived consequences – is a nonsense. I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans. At the same time, my life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it’s hateful to say so.” And then she goes to bed. And then Twitter continues to respond to her, and people are really upset about this. Before we get into the blog post that she wrote a few days later, Sarah, can you tell us why everything she just said on Saturday night was offensive and wrong?

Sarah: Yeah, so a few things. Let’s just discuss some of the language that she used. So first of all, “same-sex attraction.” That’s something… we now mostly say “same gender attraction,” or we just say “LGB” or “queer.” And so we’ve already started to remove that from sex, but I think her Internet is lost somewhere in the early 2000s or ’90s. But sex, as she is talking about it, is what we affirmatively refer to as what you are assigned at birth. And so you may have heard the terms “AFAB” or “AMAB.” AFAB would mean that you are assigned female at birth. AMAB means that you are assigned male at birth. And the reason why we discuss this is because, one, it feels better for trans people. It doesn’t make the distinction between being “real” or “not real” in your identity. But also, sex is not actually this binary. It’s a spectrum always, and people are intersex, and they are not assigned intersex at birth, sometimes. There are ways to know if someone is intersex, and there are actually a lot of corrective surgeries that are done almost immediately after birth for that, or there’s some chromosomal issue or something like that, that is either never discovered or discovered way later. And this is also true of people who are AFAB or AMAB, where you can have different chromosomes than what you would typically expect of a woman or a man. You can have hormonal issues that cause issues with menstruation; there are lots of cis women who do not menstruate. And so this is just a little bit about some of the words that she used that were wrong. And then for gender, that is what we know as how people identify what roles and scripts they see themselves as filling, their relationships with society, how they view themselves internally, and these can be changed in terms of labels throughout the lifespan. But it has been found over and over again, scholarly, to not be able to be changed, which is why conversion therapy is unethical to do in almost any therapeutic licensure. It is harmful and it doesn’t work. And there are lots of studies and legitimate science if you are interested in understanding why or how we know that.

Micah: Sarah, one question I had here is looking at these tweets, why could they potentially be misleading or misinformative to the average person looking at the tweet and saying, “Oh, it’s just J.K. Rowling tweeting again”? Because I think that has happened a lot, as it did back in December.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that something that a lot of people try to discuss when they are saying why they don’t support a marginalized population is they make an argument that the marginalized population is not making. So here, the arguments she’s using is “My experience has been shaped by being female.” Yeah, no one is questioning that. And honestly, if anyone here has spoken with trans people, they understand that they have had their experience shaped by how they were socialized, what they were assigned at birth; this isn’t a novel concept or something that trans people don’t already think. Being trans does not mean automatically that you are as far left as you can go politically and want to burn all categories. There are a lot of trans people that I work with that are more conservative or more traditional in their beliefs about what gender is and what gender roles they should follow. And this connection to “All trans people believe that sex doesn’t exist, where being female doesn’t have lived consequences” is not what anyone is saying, besides J.K. Rowling, apparently.

Laura: And we wanted to talk a little bit about why we think J.K. Rowling may be doing this now, why she’s been consistently doing this, especially for the last six months or so. We actually got a really great email from Anna, who resides in Scotland, about the Scottish Gender Recognition Act. Scotland is currently looking to reform its 2004 Gender Recognition Act in order to make gender recognition more accessible to trans people living in Scotland. Of course, J.K. Rowling also lives in Scotland. Something that I observed when I looked up the recommendation from Scottish Parliament about the Gender Recognition Act is that it was published on December 17 of last year, and of course, we all remember J.K. Rowling’s December tweet about Maya Forstater – I always forget her last name – that came on December 19. So it seems possible that J.K. Rowling may have been made aware of this around the time it was published, and that that sort of incentivized her to start speaking out on this.

Sarah: Yeah, and also, I hear a lot of people on Twitter and in the fandom… I’ve been in this fandom for my entire life, practically. I started listening to MuggleCast in 2006, and attending Harry Potter conferences that year as well. And so a lot of things that I have been seeing have been supportive of trans people and dismissing J.K. Rowling’s statement, but for some people that may not understand why this is so harmful… I mean, yesterday we had Trump try and set limitations on healthcare for trans people. And you have to do a lot of reading, and some of it I think you have to understand how trans healthcare already works, because you might think right away, “Okay, this limits access to trans-affirmative care,” which some people may or may not already see as cosmetic or optional procedures. But this also limits whether or not trans men are able to get hysterectomies, whether they are able to get tested for ovarian cancer, whether trans women can get prostate exams… it disrupts and will kill a lot of people because we have care that we have gendered. And we are trying – and by we, I mean the Trump administration in the US – is trying to limit whether or not these things will be allowed to be done through insurance. And we all know through insurance that if you can’t get a very serious procedure – or sometimes a very simple procedure – done, you are potentially going bankrupt doing it out of pocket. And so this is a huge problem, and if it does pass, will have a very deadly effect on trans people.

Eric: It really seems like a global effort, or a global affront, is taking place that’s been taking place over the last couple of years. But really, this movement really seems to be… it crosses country borders, really.

Andrew: And I think it’s one of the fights of our generation.

Laura: Agreed. I’d also like to point out, to Sarah’s point about this move by the Trump administration here in the US, that happened on the fourth anniversary of the Pulse nightclub shooting, and I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

Andrew: In Pride Month too.

Laura: Yeah, during Pride Month. It feels like a massive dog whistle. And that is exactly why – and Sarah, you can let me know if this is accurate – it’s exactly why this kind of rhetoric is dangerous.

Eric: Now, dog whistle, I want to redefine that term. We’ve heard it only once before on this show that I can recall.

Laura: Essentially, a type of virtue signaling.

Sarah: You could easily say, and people do, that it’s just one person’s opinion and we shouldn’t get outraged about it. But there’s a few issues with that, in general, when people state opinions like this, but particularly when J.K. Rowling states that opinion like this, because these opinions are not from nowhere. If it truly was J.K. Rowling on an island by herself – and like, please let that happen – but if that’s what was happening and she just had this opinion and was stating it into a void, okay, that probably doesn’t have a ton of ripples societally. But these are very well-known opinions. These are opinions that she is shouting at a very, very large platform. These are opinions that she is shouting when she has a lot of money, and politics is often run by money, and so there is a lot of ability that she has more than just her words that we don’t know about to influence how laws pass, how policies pass. And that is true everywhere. I can’t tell you how many times… within therapy, in general, a lot of times what people are coming in for is internalized problems, so bad communication, issues with forming positive relationships, trust issues, things that they can sit in my office and I can be like, “Here’s how you fix this.” And when you work with marginalized folk, and I work primarily with trans people, they are coming in because outside of my office in their life, there are these issues, and those are things that they cannot fix. They are coming in because there are bureaucratic issues that allow them to be misgendered, or to not get the care that they need. They are coming in because they have… in Nevada, where I live, luckily, we have a lot of state protections, but not every state does. And so they are coming in because the world is actively against them in a lot of ways. And this is how the world became actively against them, is people have these opinions. And we, for an unknown reason, said that they were allowed their opinion, more than we said that these trans people were allowed to live.

Laura: And for just one example of the impact, we wanted to share an email from a listener who wrote in. This is from Collin, and Collin says, “I’m a transgender man (meaning I was assigned female at birth), and Harry Potter has always been a really important part of my life. I started reading the books when I was 7, and I’m 20 now. I’m a gay man, I’ve had relationships with gay men, and it’s never been an issue. Not once. This kind of talk just further divides the LGBT community and it’s been a talking point for hateful fringe parts of the cis gay community for decades. It really hurts to have to recognize that these beliefs are part of the person who created my favorite series, and it hurts even more that she’s doubling down even now. I know it can be hard to accept something is true when you don’t want it to be, especially about someone you look up to, so I hope the people struggling with that right now recognize how much more painful it is for the people this is directly aimed at. A big part of transitioning is making it through all the people who are questioning you, and think that they know you better than you do. It’s really painful that a woman whose work was such an important part of my childhood is one of them.”

Andrew: Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Collin. And so before we get to J.K. Rowling’s blog post, I just want to highlight some of the responses from Harry Potter actors. These came as a surprise, starting with Dan Radcliffe on June 8, who spoke out. I don’t think anybody saw this coming. Dan Radcliffe is very separated from Harry Potter these days, but he’s actually been very involved with the Trevor Project. Laura mentioned it at the top of the show; this is a hotline for LGBTQ people to call at any time for some free counseling. He posted on the Trevor Project’s website a statement in response to J.K. Rowling’s thoughts and came out against her pretty strongly. He said, “As someone who has been honored to work with and continues to contribute to the Trevor Project for the last decade, and just as a human being, I feel compelled to say something in this moment. Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional healthcare associations who have far more expertise on the subject matter than either Jo or I.” And he says more, but we will get into that later in the show.

Eric: On the point of Dan, on the point of Collin’s email so far, is empathy. This comes down to how much empathy you have for people who suffer from being marginalized. And I think that… I get a lot of empathy reading Dan’s statement. I do not get a lot of empathy reading Jo’s sarcastic retort on Twitter about people who menstruate. And that’s going to, I think, be a throughline as we continue discussing this.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I would just add, too, I think it’s also about education, right? For people like myself, who just are not familiar enough. And I think that that’s part of doing the show, that’s part about having these conversations, because if you’re able to better educate yourself and understand, that goes a long way as well. That’s, to me, in tandem with being empathetic towards other people in who they are.

Sarah: And that’s one thing I appreciated from Dan’s statement, is as far as I’m aware, it’s the only Harry Potter response person who has said that there are people who have far more expertise on the subject than him or Jo. And that’s one thing that obviously I would notice, because that’s another issue. I mean, that’s a whole 2020 vibe right now of not trusting expertise, and not understanding that expertise exists. Like, you watch one YouTube video and you think you’re a genius on the matter. And so that’s another thing that occurs in J.K. Rowling; her statement is coded with language that does make it seem like she is an expert. And a lot of people, when they do state opinions, if they are in positions of power, can make their opinions seem like fact. And we know all too well that that works. And so I appreciated that. This isn’t some weird thing just happening online, or that Jo thinks is new to the world. This has been studied for decades. This has been worked on for as long… these are conversations that are already happening, and we know a lot more about it than what we put on Twitter.

Micah: Even given recent events, I think we’re seeing more so that people are not being silent about things anymore, even if it’s uncomfortable, and I think that goes a long way in terms of allyship.

Andrew: So on June 10, Emma Watson came out against J.K. Rowling’s statement as well. She said, “Trans people are who they say they are and deserve to live their lives without being constantly questioned or told they aren’t who they say they are.” And then on June 12, Rupert Grint completed the trifecta and issued a similar statement. I saw this funny tweet on Twitter: “These statements literally came in true trio order: Harry bold yet dramatic, Hermione eloquent yet pedantic, and Ron loyal yet late.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Honestly, the solidarity. Noma Dumezweni, Bonnie Wright, Eddie Redmayne famously…

Andrew: Evanna Lynch.

Eric: Evanna Lynch followed Dan. All of these actors. Dan Fogler now, as well.

Andrew: Yeah. And I will say, it was gutsier for Eddie Redmayne and Dan Fogler to come out in support of trans people and against J.K. Rowling’s statements, because they still work for J.K. Rowling.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It was gutsy for Dan and Rupert and Emma, for sure. But they still have to go and see her. And in fact, on Friday night, the screenwriter who’s working with J.K. Rowling on Fantastic Beasts 3 and who wrote seven of the eight Harry Potter movies, Steve Kloves, he came out against J.K. Rowling’s statement as well. So a lot of people are speaking out about this, and good for them, because they could have just stayed silent and not annoy their boss. Somebody who did play it safe was Warner Bros., but we’ll get to that at the end of the show.

Eric: [laughs] Well, one statement that’s apparent in many if not all of these Harry Potter cast and crew statements is trans women are women, trans men are men. Something as simple as that line far exceeds the level to which J.K. Rowling is willing to go. In her long 3,700-word response, she does not once allow trans people the dignity of saying anything as direct as that one line, and that’s huge to me.

Sarah: Yeah, she gets close at some points, and then she just flies in a different direction. I’m like, “You were almost there. Keyword almost.” [laughs]

Eric: It’s almost as if by saying that line, that it’s a rebuke to J.K. Rowling’s whole point, to everything that she’s doing. I mean, the fact that these stars spoke out is not a coincidence. It’s because it needed to be spoken, because people are in pain, because people are hurting.

Andrew: Trans people need our support, yeah. So let’s talk about this article. She posted this on JKRowling.com under the headline “J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues.” I just want to point out first that there is not a single link and only two citations in this entire 3,000+ word blog post, and I find that very irresponsible because she is sharing a lot of information. You really have to step back for a second to think about why she is not linking to her sources.

Micah: In addition to publishing this, she did put it out on Twitter and the only words that were utilized in the tweet were “TERF wars.” And I wonder, Sarah, can you just explain what a TERF is? Because I think probably a lot of our listeners aren’t aware of what that term means.

Sarah: Yeah, so TERF stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist, and TERF is a word used when people are excluding trans people from feminism and not acknowledging trans existence. I mean, TERF is discussed by TERFs as being a slur. It’s actually kinder than I think it should be. For those who follow feminism and the different waves of feminism, not just understand that feminism is a thing, radical feminism is not really what most TERFs are doing. It is used as a descriptor, and it is describing the statements that are being made. But a lot of people who are called TERFs pretend as though it is a slur, especially as though it is a slur against cis women, and that will come up a lot in the statement.

Eric: When we had Rori Porter on, she told us that TERF was actually a term created by that movement, that it was not in fact, as J.K. Rowling claims in her article, coined by trans activists.

Sarah: I think it actually might be. I don’t remember the origin of TERF, but that would not surprise me if that were true. Because again, a lot of people… they’re not radical feminists. And so it is a bit of a weird thing that I think trans activists would pick up on more, and so that makes a lot more sense in the history of the term.

Laura: Sarah, I wanted to ask if you think this could be a fair historical comparison in an earlier wave of feminism. Before any of us were born, feminism – or at least mainstream feminism – did not include lesbians, for example.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: Is that a similar sort of thing that’s happening here with trans-exclusionary radical feminism?

Sarah: A little bit. So yeah, there used to be… I mean, I think a lot of what it comes down to is feminism; there are many waves. There are many scholars and historical activists and people involved in feminism, and they think different things, which is why there’s different strands of feminism. And so a lot of what TERFs are relying on is essentialism arguments. And so what essentialism is… I mean, hopefully, exactly as it sounds like, that there is an innate womanhood. This is what it is, and that’s it. And so essentialism itself is not very widely utilized, or highly regarded in a lot of scholarship anymore. There are obviously some people that still hold essentialist views, but we’re not really there. A lot of scholarship is discussing social constructionism, which is “Gender is a construct,” you might have heard before. That’s where that comes from. And so that’s the other issue that Andrew already brought up. I mean, she doesn’t cite her sources, but also, she’s going into lots of different waves, and so you can’t follow her argument. Even if she cited it, she would probably… let’s pretend that this was a peer-reviewed journal, and if that were the case, she would be citing so many contradictory people that it would never get published. Every reviewer would be like, “You can’t have this person’s thoughts and this person’s thoughts together. They think different things.” [laughs]

Andrew: Right, right. And there are a lot of statements in this blog post that contradict each other. I mean, just on their face, I found it really irresponsible. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to kind of treat this like a Chapter by Chapter segment. [laughs] I think we’re going to pull out some quotes and dive into our reactions to them and why they’re wrong. And in the show… look, we could spend – seriously, I’m not joking – six hours talking about this, but we’re going to try to do it in 30-45 minutes.

Eric: Here’s the thing. I read this and my overall impression, coming away… I initially saw that she had written a post on her website. I said, “Thank God, we’re finally going to get her opinion on this, and I’m finally going to be able to understand,” because Twitter is not the best way. Everybody knows Twitter is not the best way to communicate. Everybody knows that. But after reading this article – it’s very long – I read it and I came away going, “Huh, okay, J.K. Rowling is not a bad person. She’s just really, really, really concerned about the state of current the politics and gender identity and all that stuff.” And I came away, and I walked away going, “She’s just really concerned about this.” And it’s almost like that new meme where you’re reading something and you go “checks notes.” It’s like, “Okay, so J.K. Rowling is a nice person. She just – checks notes – is afraid that transgender women are going to violate women’s spaces in the bathrooms and attack women?” It almost doesn’t…

Sarah: Which, for the record, never happens.

Eric: Yeah, when transgender women have problems in the bathroom, it’s because cis people are uncomfortable with them being there, and cis people are the instigators of many of these reported results. I’ve done some research after this. But is that the major theme of this, then? Because it’s hidden behind a lot of “I feel” statements, which we’re inclined to sympathize with because it’s J.K. Rowling, the woman who we’ve regarded for so long. But I myself, I hate how much I was swayed at first by what seemed to be a really concerned woman with a lot of legitimate concerns about the world today.

Sarah: And that’s something that will come up a lot through different quotes that we highlight. She uses a lot of common logical fallacies in order to trap you in that, and the way that… I mean, it works well because not a lot of people are experts in this. Not even a lot of trans people are. And so there are… I was reached out by some trans people when I was posting on Twitter about this. Not all trans people even disagree with J.K. Rowling. Most do. But this is something that I think absolutely, it is very easy to fall into the very pretty language that she used to construct her argument, and she leads you in the direction she wants to lead you.

Andrew: And she tries to be friendly and funny at points too.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s condescending. [laughs]

Eric: It seems so manipulative.

Micah: I think, yeah, it goes back to even when we were talking about the tweets earlier on the surface level. If that’s all you’re reading at, you can walk away and not necessarily feel one way or the other, or not understand what the whole to-do is about. But I wanted to start off at the beginning here because I think it’s interesting to see how she first got involved with even thinking about trans issues. And in her open letter, she says that it was really professional. She said, “On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series -“ she’s referring to the Cormoran Strike series, “- set in the present day, and my fictional female detective -“ whose name is Robin “- is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself.” And I’ve read all the Cormoran Strike novels to date. My question was, “Affected in what respect?” We know at least in one of the books, this character encounters another character in The Silkworm, and the character that’s encountered, her name is Pippa. She’s a transgender woman undergoing therapy ahead of gender reassignment surgery. And again, I don’t think we need to jump in necessarily to the story, but this seems to have been her entry point into having conversations and learning about the trans community.

Eric: I mean, I love this quote, to be “of an age to be interested in.” What age is that exactly, to be affected by transgenderism? Because trans folks are affected by this their whole lives. So what level of privilege is this right here?

Sarah: So what she’s talking about… and this is, again, another through point, so I’ll talk more about this later, because this is… one of the main sources that she cited is Lisa Littman. And this is a huge… Lisa’s peer-reviewed publication came out in 2018 and then was republished in 2019, but the thing that is most used in TERF spaces is what is known as rapid-onset gender dysphoria. And so what this is referring to – which, again, is not clear if you hadn’t already read the publication before the statement as I had – it is talking about how teenagers huddle up in teenage groups and all become trans.

Andrew: I could not believe that.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s quite a lot. So again, there’s a lot of points of this. I want to discuss it later when she actually discusses this as evidence because it’s one of the only things that she uses, but have it be known, most of the language, if it seems weird or particular, a lot of it is really referring to this one publication, which is ridiculous.

Andrew: And also, J.K. Rowling does not have to have this type of storyline in her books. She’s acting like, “Oh, because it’s set in present day, I just have to research this and have to include it.” No, you don’t. You’re still writing a fictional world.

Eric: Well, and not to mention the character of Pippa is like, the world’s worst stereotype of transgender women. And Cormoran himself threatens Pippa with rape, prison rape.

Sarah: I didn’t know that. I’ve never read this. But what I was about to say is that I’m sure that even in her “research,” it’s not even accurate, because I mean, there is no minimum therapy requirement to receive a therapeutic support letter for gender reassignment surgery, or what we know as gender affirmation surgeries. And so my assumption is that this book writes about it in very outdated terms that aren’t common ethical practice right now. So… ooh, yikes. A lot of yikes.

Micah: Yeah, I’m sure we could definitely do an entire episode just digging into these issues as they pertain specifically to The Silkworm, but wanted to highlight another quote that she had in her open letter, one that was almost digging for sympathy, I would say. And she said, “What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation -“ and she’s talking about her Twitter cancellation “- was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful, and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic, and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice, and safeguarding.”

Andrew: She really wanted to let us know that some people are on her side, and yeah, okay, great. When you have 14 million followers on Twitter, I would expect some people to agree with you. Congratulations.

Sarah: But if you’re not going to name people, though… “influencing politics, medical practice, and safeguarding.” Who we talking about? Are they actually people that are credible and are well-known for working within the space? And what I am viewing this whole thing as is if J.K. Rowling isn’t talking about it, I am assuming that either she is not actually hearing from these people, or she is hearing from people that are not very credible, because of the times when someone does seem credible – again, such as Lisa Littman – she discusses in great detail who this person is. She is very name-droppy about it.

Andrew: Right.

Sarah: And so I don’t buy it. This isn’t correct.

Eric: Yeah, I saw on Twitter, this quote, “Working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria.” Somebody said, “Yeah, like a bathroom architect could claim to work in this field.”

[Micah and Sarah laugh]

Eric: Are those people emailing Jo? Who’s emailing Jo? But what bothers me the most about this is she says that all of these people are kind, empathetic, intelligent. If they saw what she posted on Twitter in December, which is “Live how you like, dress how you like, feel the way you want to feel” in that very standoffish gender cancellation, trans cancellation tweet, how could anybody respond to that going, “Yeah, Jo, you’re right”? How are those empathetic, kind people? Because she was spewing hate when people replied to that. So what about it makes them kind and empathetic?

Laura: They agree with her. It’s honestly just a better-worded version of the “Many people are saying” argument that we hear a lot nowadays.

Micah: It also in a way has an underlying implication that those who are in opposition to her are not kind, empathetic, or intelligent.

Sarah: Yeah, which she directly says later in the statement. And so yeah, she is painting a picture, and this is the picture that she’s painting. I don’t know why she’s choosing to paint this.

Andrew: She also said, “I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health.” That is something we suspected, and look, we understand Twitter can be a bad, dark place. And then she says, “Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.”

Laura: Oof.

Andrew: Sarah, what is wrong with this?

Sarah: No, they weren’t. They were assigned female at birth. And also, widely known about feminism: not just about women. The patriarchy affects men and women. And so this was one of the funnier things to me when reading the statement, was how when she was trying to paint her argument, she accidentally said the exact transphobic thing she’s being accused of instead of her flowery language. Yeah, if you are calling trans men “women,” that is the point. That is the problem with everything you are thinking.

Eric: But that goes in line with what she said about people who menstruate are women, right?

Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, that isn’t even true, medically. There are lots of cis women who don’t menstruate, either by choice through birth control, or through a medical issue where they have to have surgery done. They have polycystic ovarian syndrome. There are lots of legitimate reasons where women don’t menstruate.

Eric: Oh, not to mention postmenopausal women as well, our grandmothers.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. And there are also lots of men who menstruate. A lot of people don’t understand how transition works, but it is very common for trans men either to menstruate continuously while on testosterone, or to have issues with hormone levels where it comes back for a period of time. I have three trans men that I’m working with right now that this is currently an issue that they are going to doctors about, and they’re not quite sure what happened with their levels or if their prescription needs to be changed or something in life, but their period just returned. This is just incorrect. And also, a lot of cis women don’t view that as helpful. When you just say womanhood is about menstruation, we have a lot of historical issues with women who experience infertility not being included in womanhood. And so she is saying that she wants to be supported in her womanhood, but she’s not even including all women in that because there are lots of cis women who would probably feel better with the opinion article titled as it was, because it doesn’t call into question their womanhood for not bleeding.

Laura: It also just feels like a strange hill to die on to say that womanhood is defined by menstruation, because anyone who’s ever experienced menstruation knows that it’s not something that is societally celebrated.

Andrew: Yeah, you don’t love it, right? It’s not like, a party.

Sarah: It’s also medically damaging. Endometriosis is a huge issue that a lot more women face than we have diagnosed that they are facing. And a lot of times women will go to the ER or go schedule doctor appointments to discuss endometriosis symptoms, and will be told that they are exaggerating or they’re being hysterical or that this isn’t what’s happening. And so this is like… no one’s paying attention to this anyway. [laughs]

Laura: In her statement she moves on to say, “Accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions, and organizations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. […] What’s next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t…” I don’t know that word.

Sarah: Dimorphic, yeah.

Laura: Okay. [laughs] “… aren’t dimorphic species.”

Micah: This is where – I think, Andrew, you mentioned it earlier – she tries to get a little cute. She tries to be funny, and it just doesn’t resonate. Honestly, for me, I read that and I was just completely confused.

Andrew: My brain shorted out here too. I think she’s trying to confuse us. [laughs]

Sarah: Andrew, you’re mostly right that she is trying to confuse you. She is. It is mind-boggling how many wrong things were said. I don’t know if any of you watch Schitt’s Creek, but I’ve never heard someone say so many wrong things in a row consecutively. First of all, we’ve already discussed “biological woman” and that not being an affirmative term. So what she means is being cisgender, which is the word that we use if you were assigned female at birth and identify as a woman. She’s continuing to again use a logical fallacy. This is a slippery slope argument. And she is using this to make trans-affirmation look moronic for people who do not understand what trans-affirmation actually is, and so she is being very deliberate in talking about clownfish and saying that we think that you can literally grow a pair. No, no one says any of that. And this is another place that… for people who understand more about trans activism and also TERF spaces, she is using a lot of TERF language. Some of the examples, we’re not going to talk about all them in quotes, but you can look through the statement [laughs] if you feel you must. So “gender critical women” is a very TERF term; discussing the category, the gender, as women, men, and trans people; discussing “natal” girls; discussing rapid-onset gender dysphoria. Those are terms you only see if you are on TERF Twitter, or in TERF spaces. And so those are other reasons that we know that the sources that she’s supposedly reading are not legitimate. These are not terms that are scholarly; these are terms that are almost exclusively used in transphobic spaces and publications and blogs.

Eric: And they run up against science.

Sarah: Yes.

Andrew: So if you don’t want to be called a TERF, don’t use TERF language out of the TERF dictionary. It’s kind of that simple. So now let’s move on to the BuzzFeed portion of the article; she laid out the top five reasons why she’s speaking out.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: This article is all over the place.

Sarah: It really is.

Eric: There’s a listicle in here!

Micah: I know that there’s been a lot of troubling things that have already been said, but I think it gets even more so as we move into this top five because there’s so many things that are conflated together that really… I understand for her there’s connections, but the conclusions that she ultimately draws, I think, are a little bit discomforting.

Andrew: And she calls this “the new trans activism,” but Sarah, you take issue with that, right?

Sarah: Yeah, this isn’t new. I mean, we are seeing now with a lot of the Black Lives Matter movement and a lot of intersectionality with that, people are becoming very well-acquainted that Stonewall was started by black trans women. This has always been the case. Trans women and trans men and trans issues are intertwined with a lot of queer history. And to this point, the “like” incidents that she had actually showed you even more how exclusionary and transphobic her beliefs are, because she publicly acknowledged through liking the tweet of a gay activist, whose name is Fred Sargeant, who was a veteran of the Stonewall riots, and a “first Pride organizer and an early contributor to the first draft of the gay agenda,” according to his Twitter bio, and he is a fierce advocate of exclusion of transgender people from the LGBTQ community. And he says, “It’s time to remove the T from same-sex advocacy groups. Trans has nothing to do with us and we owe them nothing.” So I’m just going to leave that there for you.

Laura: Oof.

Micah: Let’s take a look here at the five reasons why she’s speaking out. The first is related to her charitable trust, which is focused on alleviating social deprivation with an emphasis on both women and children. She says, “Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.”

Laura: And we felt this was a good time to talk about what the proposed changes to the Scottish Gender Recognition Act would look like, because after you read this, it makes me wonder what she’s talking about in the preamble to these recommendations. It says, “The Scottish Government’s proposals to reform the 2004 Act will not make any changes to the Equality Act of 2010. […] This means that single sex services are protected as are single sex employment rights and health services.” According to this, Scotland is not looking to make the kinds of changes that she claims the trans community is trying to push for. Additionally, I wanted to point out that the reason that Scotland is looking to update its Gender Recognition Act is because the World Health Organization has actually updated its definition of gender identity. So according to the World Health Organization, gender identity disorders are no longer listed in the “Mental and behavioral disorders” chapter, and are now in the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. So this is twofold. Scotland is looking to take down some of the barriers that in the past made it more difficult for people to have their gender recognized, but at the same time, they’re also working to be compliant with the World Health Organization.

Micah: This would have been a perfect opportunity for her, though – we talked about it earlier in the episode – to include a link to provide people with a reference point for this Gender Recognition bill in Scotland, because without having this available to us without one of our listeners sending it in, I don’t think we would have the same context.

Eric: Yeah, we’re going to take her word for it. She wants us to take her word for it. And even though I read this for the first time, and I was like, “Oh, she’s really concerned,” I did get the sense that there was some kind of boogeyman in the background of all of her writing.

Sarah: There was one point where she discussed a certificate, and I remember reading that and being like, “What is she talking about? What certificate is this? And what does she think she’s talking about? What’s going on?” And I didn’t know that this was happening. I mean, there are always policy changes happening, trying to limit trans healthcare everywhere, and so I should have assumed that there was something happening. But the certificate that she talks about later is directly from this proposed act, and it made it abundantly clear to me, and I then reread the statement through that lens. And a lot of the language that she uses is… essentially, she is trying to talk to politicians, trying to lobby for her side of this, and we were just thrown along for the ride without our consent.

Micah: Or just without any context or knowledge as to what this is all about. But the next reason that she gave is that she is an ex-teacher and a founder of a children’s charity, so another charitable foundation position coming from J.K. Rowling here, giving her an interest in education and safeguarding. Safeguarding against what?

Eric: Huh, here we go. Yeah, it’s all about not teaching our kids that they can be who they say they are, right? It’s all about teaching our kids to be the children that we want them to be.

Sarah: So many things like this that are written about marginalized folk pretend that those people don’t exist, and that they aren’t reading this right now. When you are a teacher, you are teaching some people who are cisgender and some people who are trans. So who are we safeguarding?

Laura: Sounds more like gatekeeping.

Andrew: Point three, freedom of speech.

Laura: Yeah, so this was an interesting one. And we’ve actually gotten some commentary from a few folks pointing out we can’t attack J.K. Rowling’s right to free speech. I would just observe – and I mean, I’m speaking from a purely American perspective – we have some documentation here about what free speech looks like in the UK. But freedom of speech, just as a rule, does not mean freedom from consequences, does not mean freedom from other people’s speech. So just as J.K. Rowling can say whatever she wants, we are allowed to respond how we want.

Andrew: Yeah, a lot of people seem to be conveniently forgetting that.

Laura: Yeah, well, it’s a really common thing that happens in this country where people like to lean on freedom of speech, and they forget that the First Amendment protects you from the government, not from private citizens or businesses. So when you put something out into the universe, you have the right to do that, at least in this country, as long as it’s not something like yelling “Fire” in a crowded room, for example. People have every right to respond to that with their own free speech, and that’s exactly what we’re doing here.

Eric: This third reason is two sentences long and she mentions Donald Trump. That’s one of the one of the few names she drops in this paper, is Donald Trump. “I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.” Okay, thanks, Jo.

Laura: Also, just wanted to point out there could be a different classification of this in the UK. None of us here are experts on free speech in the UK and what exactly it means and the legalities behind this, but we did want to include this: “The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions, or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, […] public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others.” So that is from the Human Rights Act of 1998.

Andrew: All right, let’s move on to this fourth point. This is a big one: concern about the numbers of people who are detransitioning. So in other words, these people are deciding to transition, in J.K. Rowling’s opinion, sometimes too early, and then they change their minds. And according to her, studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Sarah, fact or fiction?

Sarah: [laughs] This is wild. No, no, no.

Andrew: Fiction.

Sarah: Yeah, this is absolutely incorrect. So here are some of the things that we do know about how gender dysphoria works. And I want to be very clear with this, we don’t have many studies directly researching this. And part of that is, again, because this is a marginalized group, and a lot of research is done through grants, and this is not always grant-funded research. But also, in order to understand this methodologically, you would need to do longitudinal studies, and we have not. And so these numbers are crazy. But what we do know is that there was a study done in 1993, which seems like a long time ago, but scholarly, it’s not actually considered that long ago, in terms of this kind of research. And so regrets about transitioning were extremely rare; they found that 1-1.5% of male-to-female trans women, and under 1% of trans men, so female-to-male, regretted transitioning. And further, there was a 2012 trans mental health study, which found when we talk about regrets, and trans people say that they have regrets. Most of the time they are regretting not transitioning sooner, wanted to use a different surgeon, having a complication from surgery, having a work issue arise from coming out… they are not discussing that they don’t want to transition or they regret transitioning in general. And so this is just absolutely false, what she is throwing out.

Eric: This 1993 study says 1-1.5%. That is not 60-90% of people.

Sarah: Yeah. And also, if you say… again, I just keep pretending if this was a peer-reviewed journal, because it makes me laugh every time. That would be so hard. They would just be like, “This is not… how did you get such a crazy number? 60-90 is such a range. This isn’t anything.”

Andrew: It’s a big range.

Sarah: Yeah, this wouldn’t be published. [laughs]

Micah: Because on one end, you’re almost saying 100% of the people, and that’s…

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] It’s insane.

Laura: And I also wanted to point out just from the political side of things, just given the fact that it seems likely that this is where at least part of her concerns lie, according to the Gender Recognition Act in Scotland, the act of 2004, nobody under the age of 18 can apply for legal gender recognition. The proposed changes to the act say that they may consider lowering that age to 16, so they’re going to seek views about doing that. But certainly, even if this proposal were to be accepted, nobody under the age of 16 would be able to do this. Currently, the age is 18. So it makes me wonder where she’s getting this concern about gender dysphoric children and teens being able to apply for legal gender recognition too early, because it doesn’t seem that the law would allow for it.

Sarah: Yeah. And I have points to discuss a bit later as we get more into quotes that she says that touch more on this, but a lot of gender affirmation procedures and options are done on an informed consent basis, which means you are an adult; you are an autonomous person with agency over your own body. It is my job as the healthcare professional to explain to you what you are engaging in, and then that is it. It is not my job to tell you whether or not you are or are not trans, you will or will not regret this, and lots of adults do things that they regret sometimes. So yes, some people do detransition; that is not a zero. And so that is life. People regret tattoos, people regret other surgeries, people regret marriages. Sometimes you regret something.

Andrew: Right. But she’s so flippant with it; she says, “Oh, so many people are detransitioning,” as if these people did not put a lot of thought into this. And we referenced this earlier; she said that teen girls just get together on a Friday night, and instead of braiding each other’s hair and playing board games or whatever they’re doing, gossiping about boys, they all get together and they say, “You know what? Let’s all change our gender.” In what world does that happen? Certainly not on this planet. And I find it so offensive that she would just be so flippant with that kind of idea. And also, reminds me of this passage a little later, where she says, “I can’t help but wonder if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition.” J.K. Rowling, this is not a light decision that people take. They don’t make it to avoid physical abuse, they’re making it because they feel deep within them that they are not the biological sex that they were born with.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s something that, from the mental health point of view… and again, this is as an American experience, and so it is different in the UK. Some of it is more streamlined; that makes it in a lot of ways harder to get a hold of. Getting, I guess “registered” is not the right word that they would use, but getting involved with a gender clinic makes it so that way your procedures are covered, but it also can be a huge waitlist. And so as an American and working in healthcare, you have to do a lot of work. And what we are fighting for, and what J.K. Rowling is I think unintentionally fighting against, is we are not trying to necessarily make it “easier” just for the sake of making it easier. But it’s tied to knowledge; it’s tied to research. What is happening now, because we are having all these policy limitations on trans-affirmative care, is it allows professionals to not be knowledgeable of what gender dysphoria looks like, how to treat it, and how it presents. And that is what is killing people. And so when you are working in mental health for trans people, there is an ethical standard that we are supposed to follow called the WPATH Standards of Care. WPATH is the World Professional Association of Transgender Health. It’s available for free online; you can look it up. It’s like a 120 page PDF, but it has a pretty good table of contents, so you can look around. But there are discussions like, “This is what healthcare professionals or therapists in this case are supposed to help you with,” explaining how to work through the systems of oppression, to know what’s going on. And I have worked with several clients that have thought they were trans and realized it was something else. And it’s something that I introduce readily to them that you can be questioning, you can know that there’s something up, but there’s a lack of language, there’s a lack of research. And because of that, you cannot exactly know what is happening or what you want to do, especially because we have this in such binary terms. And so sometimes what that looks like is someone comes in and they believe that they are a trans guy and that they need to do all of medical transition, become “complete,” a lot of people will use that language, and then they’ll realize that “Oh, no. I want testosterone, yes. I want top surgery, yes. But I don’t need bottom surgery,” or “I don’t need to change my name. I don’t need to change my gender marker here.” As I discuss this with clients, it’s as if you’re entering a buffet, and you have a choice of what things you choose at that buffet. And if J.K. Rowling was in therapy… also, it doesn’t need to be 30 years later. Trans people existed 30 years ago. You just needed to find someone who was informed on this. And right now, because of the policy limitations, people are not informed, and it is making it harder for trans people to find educated providers for them to explain what’s going on, to help them see what’s going on, and also, just medically to still do the tests that they need. There are lots of times that trans people will go into a medical office or the ER and request something like, again, a hysterectomy or a prostate exam, and they will be denied that because they will believe that they do not need that. And that kind of flippant response is what we’re fighting against here and what we’re hoping to alleviate by educating people further.

Andrew: Let’s complete her listicle here, though. Point five was that she shared her personal experiences with domestic abuse and sexual assault. And of course, that is absolutely awful; we are so sorry to hear that. She notes that this is the first time she’s speaking so openly about this. She also got permission from her daughter to share her story. But she says this is one of the reasons why she felt the need to speak out.

Eric: Yeah, here’s a quote that she sounds really understanding of the situation at large. She says, “I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of color, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men. So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any men who believe or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.” Sarah, is that the simple truth?

Sarah: No.

[Andrew and Sarah laugh]

Eric: She’s seeming so understanding. That whole thing about how trans women are so at risk, it seems to… she’s doing my head in here.

Andrew: The bathroom argument is so darn stupid, and this has come up in America multiple times as well. The bathrooms for women and men, public restrooms, are unlocked. Guys can get in there and be total you-know-whats, awful people if they really want to; they do not need to transition in order to do that. I think this bathroom argument is just so stupid, and it gets brought up so often. A bathroom door with a women’s sign on it is not going to stop men from being predators.

Eric: Don’t we also think that trans women are more at risk if they use a men’s room, if they’ve transitioned?

Andrew and Sarah: Yes.

Sarah: I mean, so this is something that lots of trans people will consciously think about before they leave their house, is how long they’re going to be gone, whether or not they’re going to need to use a restroom while they’re gone, how close they’re going to be to home. Because the bathroom debates that are happening make it unsafe for trans women to use the men or women’s restroom; also make it unsafe for trans men to use the men or women’s restroom. There are lots of times… the abuse that happens is to trans people, where some person is trying to police them. And I mean, it is scary. Think about how scary that would be, if you are just trying to use the restroom, especially if you really need to use the restroom, and then you were just being yelled at, or the manager is being called on you, or the police are being called on you. And that is what happens to a lot of trans people. And I mean, in her fifth point… and I know that there’s been a lot of things that have happened since then, about J.K. Rowling’s history of abuse and discussing it in terms of… I think The Sun is the publication that…

Eric: Which, I’m going to come right out and condemn that. That was the worst display of anything. And it’s very easy to say that that is the absolute worst thing that could have come from this tabloid.

Sarah: No, that was appalling. But it becomes clear, and quite honestly, I think J.K. Rowling is proving through this piece, she really needs therapy. This is something that she very casually, and again, tries to make a joke of. It’s a common family running gag, like my jumpiness. That is PTSD. And I’m not diagnosing her, but I’m saying that there are a lot of things that she wrote that are upsetting, and I hope that she gets help for it. And she discusses at different places, so she discusses abuse and she discusses her coming to terms with femininity for herself. As Harry Potter fans, I just want to say I’ve been rereading Order of the Phoenix with a reading group during quarantine, and in that book in particular, but through all the books, she shows a lot of internalized misogyny. There are a lot of issues with how she presents femininity, and she reserves her comments about femininity for villains. She talks about it for Umbridge, talks about it for Parvati and Lavender… she needs to work through this, and I hope that she works through this and she finds some professional help.

Eric: Well, and let’s not forget how she deals with Umbridge – how the kids relieved Umbridge from the school – is by savage violence against Umbridge. It’s definitely ringing some bells.

Laura: Something that I would just like to bring up again, from the Scottish Gender Recognition Act, currently applicants must live, and this is from the act itself, this is the language from it, applicants must have lived in their acquired gender for a minimum of two years currently, in Scotland, before they can apply for a gender recognition certificate. The proposed change to the act would reduce that period to three months, after which they can apply for the certificate. And after their application is accepted, they would have to go through a three-month reflection period before proceeding. So the way that she’s presenting this argument, it’s as though once somebody has that gender recognition certificate, they can go into any bathroom they want, as though somebody who has the aim to assault somebody would go through a six-month period to get their certificate, and then show up at the bathroom being like, “I have my certificate now.” No, that’s not how any of this works.

Andrew: Of course not.

Eric: There’s just no evidence. There’s just no evidence of this occurring.

Andrew: Well, and the other thing is, think about these men who would want to do that. Do you think they would want to be trans people? No, so they wouldn’t take that on either. Somebody who’s transitioning doesn’t want to go through the burden of being judged and mistreated for this either. A lot of this just reminds me of the gay rights movement. LGBT, we’re all looped together, because this is not a choice. And we don’t want to go through the pain and the hurt and the prejudice that comes along with coming out, and for J.K. Rowling to act like this is an easy process is just really offensive.

Sarah: Yeah. And it’s really… I don’t want to get into the weeds of it, but it is really not easy. And it is expensive, it is time consuming, it is stressful. It’s not an easy process as it is, and so trying to make it harder is inhumane.

Micah: One of the things that stood out to me, too, was when she says, “Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people,'” and then she goes into, “Well, I have, and dot dot dot,” but it just reminds me of when people will always say, “Oh, well, just meet a few gay people, meet a few Black people, meet a few Jewish peoples,” like somehow that solves the problem. It’s not just a matter of meeting; you have to listen, you have to have conversation, you have to get… that’s the only way that you’re going to get a better understanding of what is going on.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s not listening. That’s the problem.

Micah: Right.

Sarah: It was especially clear… she ends all of this by discussing that she’s asking for empathy, and that to be extended to her and the millions of women. And many people have tried to be empathetic to her and open up dialogues, and she has blocked them on Twitter. She closed replies to this post. Her request is being granted, and she is actively avoiding it and actively shutting it down, and so that’s not what she’s asking.

Laura: Not to mention the number of LGBT affirming groups that have reached out and offered to have closed door conversations with her. She has denied those offers.

Andrew: Yeah, she doesn’t want to hear it. The last point, Sarah, you wanted to bring up.

Sarah: As we talked about already, she didn’t cite almost any sources, but there was one that she did. And so she discussed Lisa Littman, and I’m not going to get too into it. I think it’ll be in the show notes. I wrote a piece discussing, scholarly, what’s going on in her statement. But briefly, Lisa Litman wrote a paper, again in 2018, and then it was taken down and republished because of some concerns methodologically and through expertise, like expert reviewers coming in again, of what she was discussing. But she hypothesized the idea of rapid-onset gender dysphoria, which, as I discussed, has taken off like wildfire in a lot of TERF spaces. And so what rapid-onset gender dysphoria essentially is, is that teenagers are getting together and they’re all transitioning, and so it’s that “transtrender” that we might have heard before.

Andrew: Yeah. Woo! This transition party, Saturday night with the girls, let’s do it.

Sarah: Scientifically, this is not something… I mean, as a scholar, I don’t think it’s going to take off very much. There are a lot of methodological concerns. But the purpose of the study in and of itself was not to test anything; this was exploratory. And within scholarship, exploratory research is to come up with ideas for other scholars to test and to see if the hypothesis is accurate and if it stands up to rigor. And so the fact that TERFs are using this as key elements to make grand sweeping statements shows a lack of understanding of how science works, and a lack of understanding of what Lisa was trying to do in this publication. And she just has another point where she talks about a psychiatrist, I believe in his resignation letter, which, weird thing to quote is someone’s resignation letter. But she also goes back and forth several times, which is also how you can tell that she doesn’t really have a point to make. She isn’t clear in what she’s talking about. And so some of the things that she does, she discusses early on that in the UK, they have seen a 4,400% increase in trans men, which is a wild number. I wonder where she got that. So essentially, what that means is that this is a concern mostly of trans men, and then she spends this entire manifesto discussing trans women. And then she goes on to say that she believes that the majority of trans people are not a threat, and that they are also vulnerable, deserve protection. And so just doing some quick math here, I don’t know how many numbers she is talking about. She keeps making these grand accusations. But when she gets down into it, she is making it clear that she knows that she’s not talking about very many, if any at all. And so just pay attention to that as well, because that’s something that is used in a lot of transphobic arguments. Trans women, more often they’re at risk for hate crimes. Just this week, we have had two trans people of color killed in 24 hours, brutally killed; one of them was dismembered. And that also wasn’t news until four days later. Think about how wild that is. Someone was dismembered, and that wasn’t news for days. And so oftentimes when we discuss transphobia, we are discussing trans women as threats, and we are trying to ignore trans men as existing in this. And she is falling into that, even after explicitly stating a 4,400% increase in trans men in the UK.

Andrew: As you’re saying, she’s all over the place. And I’ve been thinking in the back of my head about her timing. It almost seems like she rushed out this blog post. I mean, she made those tweets Saturday night; she published this Wednesday morning, and this is over 3,000 words. Like we’ve said, there’s a lot of information in here. Part of me wonders if she’d been writing this in her head since December, so maybe she was able to punch it out quick. But it does seem like she should have taken more time to research all this, maybe provide a few more links, and maybe think this through, because as you’re saying, it is all over the place.

Laura: Well, and also, I think that when you are voicing something that you think is a problem, the onus is on you to provide a solution. There’s nothing more annoying to me than when people come to the table to complain about something, and then they have no proposal as to how they think it could be better addressed. So she’s saying, “The majority of trans people are not a threat, and they’re also vulnerable and deserve protection.” Okay, if not legal gender recognition by the government, then what? What protection are you talking about?

Eric: There was an element – I think you guys discussed on Millennial – about whether or not J.K. Rowling is salvageable, whether her views can be changed. Do we want to touch on that at all?

Andrew: I don’t think her views can be changed. She makes it very clear in this letter that she is not going to back down. I mean, she literally says that. She’s at a point in her life and her career where she is very successful; she does not need to change. Why bother? Why bother?

Sarah: And by turning down closed door conversations, I mean, this is willful ignorance at this part. She cannot claim that she just hasn’t had the opportunity. And something that I discuss with a lot of people when they’re having these kinds of conversations of activism and of social justice is really recognizing whether or not someone’s teachable and whether or not you should try to teach them, and she is holding up every sign saying that she ain’t listening. She is not teachable.

Eric: I’m glad you brought that up because I asked my therapist about this. I was bothered by J.K. Rowling’s thing. And he said that, “Well, it seems that this exclusion that J.K. Rowling is perpetuating seems to be fear-based, right? She’s telling us that she’s afraid of what’s happening to women and bathrooms. She’s afraid.” And my therapist, to his credit, said, “That’s actually a little bit more approachable or more solvable than if J.K. Rowling were approaching this from a position of nihilism or hate-based exclusion, which is fear plus the certainty that it’s right to exclude these people.”

Sarah: Yeah. I don’t think your therapist is wrong. So that goes, again, back into, I think, there’s a very clear cry for help in this manifesto. And in order to change, she needs to do some work on herself, and she needs to work through clearly some really deep trauma that she is coming to light with, and that she’s probably been sitting with and wrestling with internally for a while. And until and unless she does that work in her own therapy, no one is going to teach her. This fear is based in her needing to work through her own mental health.

Micah: It’s clear that there’s this deep personal struggle that’s going on within J.K. Rowling. Is there any validity to some of her concerns? Because I think people who are listening to this show are going to ask that question, who are going to read the letter or go on social media. Is there anything that can be taken away from what she’s saying that is actually valid?

Sarah: I mean, she wrote a lot of words, and so probably a little, but not whole points. She never makes a full statement that is correct. And so she has glimmers of other arguments or other things that she could suppose, and so for example, one thing that is potentially an idea that can flourish is the idea of the lived experience of being socialized as female, and that being a reality, and so having safe spaces, having women-only spaces. But that is not something that is as she is wording it, because I have to convince trans women that I work with that they are allowed to go into all-women’s spaces. They know that you don’t want them there, and so trans people are notorious in many ways to be catering to cis feelings. And they do that sometimes unintentionally, I believe, just again, because of internalized transphobia and how the world is operating. But also because of fear. They are so at risk of violence; they are so disproportionately at risk for hate crimes, that they are very observant of their surroundings. And so they do not approach things if it is going to be harmful to them. And so, yes, there is some need sometimes; I can see for there to be spaces for people who are socialized as female to be able to get together, but there are also ways around that that aren’t just ignoring trans people or saying that trans people are taking up too much space. It is we don’t socialize our children in a gendered way. If we, again, worked with feminism and tried to tackle the system of the patriarchy, we wouldn’t need those safe spaces in those ways.

Micah: Yeah, the second part of that question was, we talked a lot about rushing to judgment at the top of the show; a lot of people think that that’s what we’re doing. But in terms of flipping to the other side of the coin, and people who will just go and say, “#IStandWithJKR,” right? We’ve gotten emails about that; we’ve seen tweets about that. What does that mean? And why should people be careful about just jumping to that conclusion?

Sarah: Yeah. When you say that you stand with JKR, again, if you are supporting this opinion, what does that actually mean? What it means is…

Micah: It’s not supporting Harry Potter.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s not supporting Harry Potter. But it also means that this becomes a louder voice, it becomes more of a political voice, and it leads to this gender act that we’re seeing in the UK. It leads to what we are now seeing in the US. It leads to discrimination in mental healthcare and in medical spaces. It has ripple effects. And so I think that it’s important for people to understand the consequences of opinions. And like Laura said at the beginning, yeah, we have freedom of speech and you’re allowed to have opinions, but that doesn’t mean that you are allowed to shout “Fire” in a crowded theater. It doesn’t mean that you are free from people criticizing your opinions. And the reason why people are so quick – and experts are also so quick – people who work in these spaces are so quick to shut this down is because they have huge lasting impacts. The bills that we are setting place will last for generations. These are fights that will kill people and have killed people, and you cannot deny those facts. And so we can all have different emotions with J.K. Rowling; we obviously have connections to Harry Potter. When it comes down to it – and I’m saying this as a huge Harry Potter fan – Harry Potter is a story and it is something that we enjoy. My interest in it will never override people’s livelihoods and people’s safety. And that is what J.K. Rowling is doing now.

Eric: Sarah, while we still have you here, we have the perk of I guess listening to some comments, or responding to some comments that we got live. My final question for you, really, is just why is it important that women and so-called natal girls do not fear trans women?

Sarah: Trans women are doing exactly what we think cis women are when we frame the arguments of “Cis women should be allowed to exist in the world without threat of violence from men.” But being allowed to walk alone at night, not put your keys between your fingers ready to attack someone if they’re coming to you, that is what trans women are also experiencing. And that’s why y’all have the same fight. And trans women, as I said before, are so at risk and are so persecuted. A lot of the time, it is very real that this threat of violence is happening against cis woman, and no one is denouncing that, no one is saying that that isn’t happening. That is happening. But that is happening astronomically more often to trans women. This year we’ve already seen… well, the number is higher now. When I was on Millennial I said 12 trans people; I think we’re now at 15 trans people that were killed in 2020, half of which, I should remind people, we were supposed to be staying in our houses. And last year there were I think 26 trans women or trans people that were killed and 21 were trans woman. And so this is a disproportionate issue to trans women and it is keeping them safe, and they are not violent. They are not a threat to you. They are seeking the same solace and protection that J.K. Rowling is hoping to give cis women.

Andrew: So one final thing before we discuss what we’re going to be doing going forward: WB issued a statement, and this was the worst statement of all, but this is what happens when Warner Bros. still has three movies, maybe a TV series, maybe other movies in the pipeline with J.K. Rowling. They don’t want to piss her off. So they issued their statement, and it says, “The events of the last several weeks have firmed our resolve as a company to confront difficult societal issues. Warner Bros.’ position on inclusiveness is well established, and fostering a diverse and inclusive culture has never been more important to our company and to our audiences around the world. We deeply value the work of our storytellers who give so much of themselves in sharing their creations with us all. We recognize our responsibility to foster empathy and advocate understanding of all communities and all people, particularly those we work with and those we reach through our content.” So they don’t address J.K. Rowling. They don’t say anything. [laughs]

Laura: They don’t take a position.

Micah: Well, in all honesty, I mean, this could easily have been a statement that they released around recent events that have been going on in our country. They just changed a couple of words.

Andrew: Yeah, it could be anything. [laughs] But as I tweeted, this is what it looks like when you don’t want to piss off the woman who is responsible for an obscene amount of your profits. They can’t lose her. They need her. But they had to say something; it’s just a whole lot of nothing.

Laura: Something else I just wanted to plug before we move on to what MuggleCast is going to look like in the future – thanks again to Anna for sending this in – for Scottish listeners who want to support the Gender Recognition Act, you can head over to LGBTyouth.org.uk to find an email template and a list of your members of Scottish Parliament to contact in support of the act.

Andrew: So what are we going to do going forward? And we’re bringing this up because a lot of people, like I said, have been very hurt by J.K. Rowling’s comments, and they feel they are done with her. MuggleCast has always been an escape for people, just like Harry Potter has been, and we would never want to end the show. We want to continue providing an escape for people. We genuinely enjoy doing this, working together, talking about Harry Potter and the lessons and all the intricacies of the series. So that said, we are going to be making a few changes, because we don’t feel like we can support J.K. Rowling in the way that we have before. And we’ve heard from some people who have said, “You guys are actually too late on this. You should have started treating her differently sooner.” And to those people, I say now, I think you’re right. I don’t think we were thinking as clearly as we should have been months ago or even years ago, because there have been a lot of problematic stances from J.K. Rowling in the past couple of years. And also, people are looking at her books again, and thinking back to some problematic views, which maybe we can address at another time.

Micah: We’ve also heard from people who said that we should be eternally grateful…

Andrew: We are!

Micah: … and give all praise to J.K. Rowling. And we are, 100%.

Andrew: But we don’t need to suck up to her every time we criticize her.

Micah: Exactly.

Andrew: That’s the crazy part. Some people are like, “I haven’t heard a thank you out of you while criticizing J.K. Rowling.” We need to do that every time? No, we don’t!

Sarah: I mean, it’s 2020. We all have a problematic phase. We’re all learning how all these things that we love were created by people to varying degrees of disappointment to us. And I think loving a thing does not ever have to mean just ignoring parts of it that are wrong. To love something is to treat it seriously and critically, and there are lots of spaces. I mean, when I first fell in love with MuggleCast, that was one of the reasons. I loved how much this show treated this work like it mattered. And if we’re going to treat it like it matters, I think that that also means that we have to discuss some of these things that we might not like and that might not be the most positive light shone on it.

Andrew: So here are a few of the changes that we’re going to be making. First of all, we are no longer going to be speaking about J.K. Rowling’s projects outside of the wizarding world. We don’t feel comfortable promoting her forthcoming work; that includes Cormoran Strike, the Ichabog, and whatever else she may create. We are also no longer going to talk about what J.K. Rowling is saying on Twitter. If she’s hurting fans again, we might bring it up. But like I said at the top of the show, this is the last time we’re going to be discussing what she has to say on this issue in particular in such detail, because we know now – it is abundantly clear – where she stands. And we don’t need to keep talking in circles about why we feel she’s wrong. But this also is applied to everything else that she says on Twitter; we don’t need to talk about it anymore. But we are a Harry Potter podcast and we will continue to cover wizarding world-related announcements and continue to review various elements – I’m thinking video games, I’m thinking theme park – but we’re going to avoid discussing JKR’s involvement in it, if any. And by that I mean we will clarify whether or not something is canon or not, because that’s important, but we’re not going to be talking about it in a way that praises J.K. Rowling. And then finally, we’re going to strive to highlight fan initiatives more and talk more about the fandom. The fandom is what has made Harry Potter so great. J.K. Rowling wrote the stories, but then we all met each other, we all started hanging out together, we celebrated Harry Potter together. J.K. Rowling did not create the fandom. We did. So we’re going to be focusing more on fan creations and the fandom and the people who have made this community so, so great. So those are some of the changes we’re going to be making; there might be more adjustments in the future. And then the final point I’ll bring up here is that we have made a donation to Trans Lifeline. This was brought up earlier. You can find them at TransLifeline.org. This is a trans-led organization that connects trans people to the community, support, and resources that they need to survive and thrive, and this is something right now that is so important as they face backlash from people like J.K. Rowling, from people in the US government, so we’ve made a $700 donation to them and we encourage you to donate if you can. Again, that’s TransLifeline.org.

Micah: Dan Radcliffe’s response or part of his response ties really nicely and really echoes our sentiments as a podcast. He said, “To all the people who now feel their experience of the books has been tarnished or diminished, I am deeply sorry for the pain these comments have caused you. I really hope that you don’t entirely lose what was valuable in these stories to you. If these books taught you that love is the strongest force in the universe, capable of overcoming anything; if they taught you that strength is found in diversity, and that dogmatic ideas of pureness lead to the oppression of vulnerable groups; if you believe that a particular character is trans, nonbinary, or gender fluid, or that they are gay, or bisexual; if you found anything in the stories that resonated with you and helped you at any time in your life – then that is between you and the book that you read, and it is sacred. And in my opinion nobody can touch that. It means to you what it means to you and I hope that these comments will not taint that too much.”

Laura: With that in mind, as we close out here, I thought that we could just touch on the idea that it’s okay to feel lots of different emotions surrounding this. I feel like when you look at the Internet, you’re seeing the far ends of reactions, and it could be very easy to walk away from this with the interpretation that people who disagree with J.K. Rowling hate her and want to burn her books, and the people who agree with her are just accepting everything that she says at face value. I don’t think that those encapsulate the entirety of the emotional response to this. I know for me, personally, it’s been this ball of emotions that have just been building inside of me for the last few days. And it’s disappointment and resentment, and a little bit of guilt, and just a whole bunch of stuff, and that’s okay. It’s important to talk about it. And it’s important that we sit with this and we really think about this critically as we move forward analyzing the books that we care so much about.

Sarah: I want to briefly say – because I do have to hop off in a couple of minutes – and so I’ve been seeing a lot of things on Twitter about how she raised us to fight against her now, and that is very true and a lot of work, a lot of work in educating yourself. A lot of work and allyship is sitting in discomfort and making yourself understand the complexity of situations. It doesn’t have to come easy. A lot of this shouldn’t come easy. And I feel like for myself, Harry Potter… a lot of the hosts here can say they knew me when I was young, and they knew me just as a Harry Potter fan, and Harry Potter shaped a lot of my goals. It shaped a lot of my scholarship. I talk about quotes in my practice. I think I even have some Harry Potter artwork in my office; I know that I have a ton of it in my house. This is something that is still greatly a part of my life, and it is greatly a part of my life because it taught lessons that apparently J.K. Rowling didn’t necessarily mean to teach, or meant it at the time and then forgot she meant it. I don’t quite know what it is, but we have to make the choice between what is right and what is easy right now. And what is easy is to simplify that Harry Potter is J.K. Rowling and J.K. Rowling has to be good because Harry Potter is good. And what is right is recognizing we love Harry Potter because it’s a deep story. It’s a complex story. It roots for the underdog. It says that we can fight for what is right and fight against oppressive systems that are trying to intentionally hurt people. In the series we see how it is hurting Muggle-borns, it is hurting other magical beasts, and in the real world, it is hurting marginalized folk. It is hurting people of color. It is hurting trans people. It is hurting queer people. And I know that it is my love for Harry Potter and my continued love for Harry Potter that is making me say this and that is making me know that J.K. Rowling is wrong. And I can hold both thoughts in my head that J.K. Rowling is wrong, and that Harry Potter is still good, and Harry Potter is still something that is worth exploring and seeing the lessons within it.

Andrew: I have never been so sure of a clip to use on social media.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Dr. Sarah Steelman, thank you so much. You are a licensed marriage and family therapist out of Vegas specializing in LGBTQ+ affirmative practices. Thank you so much for joining us on today’s episode. You are wonderful.

Micah: Yes.

Laura: Thank you, thank you.

Andrew: You remind us of this every time we speak to you.

Sarah: Thank you all for having me on. It’s very important that we talk to experts, as Dan Radcliffe said, and so I was very happy to be here. And like I said, I did write a piece on this, and if anyone wants to chat with me, the hosts know my contact, and so this conversation doesn’t have to end now. I’m part of the fandom. You can find me online if you need any help.

Andrew: Yeah, we will link to your social media and your Medium article in our show notes today. Bye, Sarah, have a good weekend.

Sarah: Bye.

Laura: Take care.

Andrew: To start wrapping things up here, anymore comments, guys, on how we’re going to treat Harry Potter and J.K. Rowling going forward, or where we go from here as fans?

Eric: I’m just disappointed because there seemed to have been a real opportunity to, I don’t know, level with people instead of doing very misdirecting manipulative things. And our author, our queen, has not taken that route of providing a singular argument, and has just rambled and caused and spread the very fear that we see being enacted in social policies in governments across the world now. So I just want to… me, leaving things, just saying I’m disappointed that this has occurred. That I think Jo somewhere in there is smart enough to not have done this, and I’m just really bummed out. I’m going to read the books as often as I would normally or discuss them as often as I would normally, but I’m really at the point where I’m looking for different voices, diverse voices, diverse artists and authors to support, because I feel like I’ve spent so much of my life… it wasn’t a lie, it wasn’t wasted, but I’ve spent a lot of life supporting people whose views I now know to be problematic. And I wish I could throw some money towards people that actually need it.

Laura: I would like to part by saying that everyone, all of us here, all of you at home, your relationship to Harry Potter and the wizarding world is yours, and it is up to you what that looks like, and what makes you comfortable. This, what we talked about today, we certainly feel very strongly about this. But at the same time, we’re not saying that you should not have a relationship with J.K. Rowling’s work that makes you comfortable. So we’re not going to judge anybody if they decide they want to continue, for example, reading future works that J.K. Rowling puts out; that’s a very personal choice. We just hope that as you continue your journey, that this is a point of view that you keep in mind.

Micah: That’s a great point. And for me – I know I touched on this earlier – but there’s a lot to be said for the educational piece of this. And I think Sarah hit it right on the head when she was talking about sometimes being an ally and learning new things is uncomfortable, and it should be. And I think that what we’re talking about right now may even be more uncomfortable for people because, especially here in the United States, it’s already layered on societal issues that are going on where people are uncomfortable, and they’re realizing that there’s been a lot of social injustice that has gone on in this country for quite a period of time. And I think, in a way, it’s an awakening for a lot of people to realize that they don’t know what they don’t know. And it’s time to sit down and have conversations and learn in order for us to be able to move forward.

Andrew: The last point I want to make is in the show notes, we’re going to link to a thread by somebody on Twitter named Andrew James Carter, who broke down J.K. Rowling’s blog post point by point, and why I want to share it is because he actually used evidence and facts and shared a lot of data, unlike J.K. Rowling. And I think it’s important to read that because you’ll understand that unlike J.K. Rowling, Andrew James Carter put a lot of thought into his response to J.K. Rowling. And I think it’s important to get the full picture and he provides that, so we’ll include a link in the show notes as well. Next week, we won’t talk about this; we will return to Chapter by Chapter and celebrate the Harry Potter fandom as we always do. And if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, of course, we would love to hear it, no matter which side you are on. You can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. And then, of course, you can send us a voice memo or you can use the voicemail line 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453.

Micah: Chapter 32, “Out of the Fire,” which would have been an appropriate title for this episode, too, I think.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: We’ll finally get back to that Umbridge suck count, and hopefully cross 100.

Micah: I think I pushed it across the 100 mark, not to tease ahead to next week…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but I was working on that chapter analysis before this all went down.

Andrew: Came up, yeah. Okay. Cool.

Micah: She sucks a lot in the next chapter.

Laura: Yeah, we can definitely accomplish 100, bare minimum.

Andrew: [laughs] All right, thank you, everybody, for listening. We appreciate it. And to those who have been skeptical of the outrage, if you’ve made it this far into the episode, we appreciate you too. We know this is a hard conversation to be had. But we felt very strongly about this, and this is why we’ve spent nearly two hours in today’s episode talking about this, and we hope some people’s minds have been changed. If not, that’s okay. We still respect you and love you. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: Take care, y’all.

Transcript #451

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #451, Murtlap Milkin’ (OOTP 15, The Hogwarts High Inquisitor)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we’re discussing Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix, “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” But first we have some more Muggle Mail, and actually, even before Muggle Mail, I just want to update everybody on last week’s discussion. We were talking about which Sirius in the fireplace was better, ember Sirius or flaming Sirius?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: As I am affectionately calling him this time around. We asked on Instagram, “Which version do you prefer?” And 38% preferred ember Sirius, while 62% preferred flaming Sirius. I’m actually surprised the results were that close to being split.

Eric: Yeah, that’s 1/3 and 2/3. That’s crazy.

Andrew: I mean, ember Sirius sucks.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Which one do you think Lupin prefers?

Andrew: Um, why does that matter? I’m thinking flaming Sirius.

Micah: I’m just throwing out questions.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Lupin has Sirius’s whole body because he’s next to him in Grimmauld Place, so he’s good.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true, yeah.

Eric: But yeah, ember Sirius, to me, just strikes me as being… the effects weren’t great, probably rushed, like you guys were saying. Flaming Sirius to me is the epitome of… that’s what that should look like. That’s what they’re going for.

Andrew: We got a great theory from Tyler. He wrote in,

“I really enjoyed this week’s episode and the discussion about Sirius in the fireplace. My theory is that for Goblet of Fire, they didn’t want to pay Gary Oldman for that small 30 second scene, so they just recorded his voice and recreated his face they best they could without filming him. I hate that they cut the big scene in Goblet of Fire with the three meeting him on a trip to Hogsmeade, but we know this would all be solved with a Harry Potter TV show. Andrew needs to prepare a pitch for WB. Thanks for all you guys do!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: What do you think? Is that true? They didn’t want to pay Gary Oldman for Goblet of Fire, so they just recreated him?

Laura: I mean, wouldn’t they have to pay him for his voice and his likeness?

Andrew: Probably. Well, but in theory, wouldn’t just recording his voice be cheaper than getting him into Leavesden and all that?

Laura: Eh, I think it’s more likely that Gary Oldman just wasn’t available.

Andrew: Oh. Yeah, maybe. I don’t buy into this theory necessarily, but it is a funny way to think of it, so thank you, Tyler. We also got an email from our social media manager, Jule, who emailed us just like I asked Pat to do when he had some feedback about what he heard on air. [laughs] Laura, do you want to read what Jule had to say?

Laura: Sure. Jule wanted to respond to the point that we mentioned about Hermione doing Harry and Ron’s homework for them. Jewel says,

“In Book 4 we see she is still very insecure about where she stands with them, so it doesn’t surprise me at all that she might sometimes feel the value she adds to the friendship is her ability to get them through their classes. When I was her age, I definitely let my classmates walk all over me by helping them with notes or homework or tests. It made me feel valuable, and I felt like it enabled my friendships. Of course, as I got older and realized how dumb this was, I found out who my real friends were, but at 15 I just wanted to be liked and that’s the way I went about it. So, here’s a message to young listeners: Hermione is a great role model in many ways, but it takes her a while to learn that she doesn’t need to do her best friends’ homework for them to like her. They’ll be annoyed at first because they’re teenage boys, but her true friends will like her anyway!”

Eric: Aww.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: That’s a really great point, Jule.

Micah: You know what I’m taking away, though, from these emails? Is that Andrew, the only listeners we have are your boyfriend and our social media producer.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I think I’m setting up a bad culture at MuggleCast where people we know and love can’t approach us with feedback. I think I’m regretting telling people we know and love to write in. I’m sorry. You guys can approach us again; talk to us face to face. I apologize. HR is going to come after me.

Laura: Hypable has HR?

Andrew: Yeah, do you have any problems you would like to speak to them about?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: We’ve hired this really delightful woman named Dolores; she’s in charge.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: The Hypable High Inquisitor.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: God. Educational Decree number 42: Don’t talk to us face to face. Email us if you have any feedback about the show. Well, a couple of our listeners also called in.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Janelle. I have a theory relating to Episode 450. When Fred gives Katie the Blood Blisterpod at Quidditch practice, I always thought that he did it on purpose and that his look of horror was fake. In a previous chapter, I believe, it said that Fred and George were having trouble coming up with an antidote or a way to stop the nosebleeds. I think he gave it to Katie on purpose, so that way they could go with her to Madam Pomfrey to see what she used to stop the nosebleed, then they could use that in their Blood Blisterpod. Let me know what you guys think. Love the show.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: I love that theory.

Laura: Me too. And Janelle, I also love your audio quality!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That was such a beautifully recorded voice memo, but also, great theory.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: That is something that Fred and George would absolutely do.

Eric: I agree. But I think they could do it without Katie, right? I mean, they could just try it on one of themselves, like they say they do, and then go to Madam Pomfrey and say, “Hey, how would you fix this?”

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah.

Laura: Don’t we think Madam Pomfrey might be kind of wise to that, though? Maybe they’re using Katie because they know Madam Pomfrey will attend to her, whereas if one of them were to go in, I’m sure she’s gotten wind of them testing their products on first years, and so while she might patch them up, of course, but I don’t think that she would let them in on the secret of how to do so.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Devious.

Andrew: “What did you guys do now? And no, I’m not going to help you come up with a solution.”

Eric: “It was our brother, ma’am. He hit her with a Quaffle.”

Andrew: [laughs] And here’s another voicemail from another Laura.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hey, MuggleCast. I just wanted to send in a quick correction about last week’s episode. When Harry was in the owlery, Filch came in and accused him of mailing Dungbombs or stink bombs, and it was actually Umbridge that tipped him off. Hermione, later in the book, reveals that she was really suspicious of that because she thought that that was kind of a weird thing for another student to accuse Harry of, and she believes that it was a way for Umbridge to go through Harry’s mail – or students’ mail – early on before she could do it as High Inquisitor. So I just wanted to give credit to Hermione for being super smart. Also last week, when you guys were reading Percy’s letter, Micah’s scary voice was both amazing and terrifying at the same time. Thanks, guys. Keep doing what you’re doing. Love you, bye.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: Love you too, bye.

Micah: [in a deep, sinister voice] I have no idea what she’s talking about.

Laura: Oh, I do, because we were talking about… we were like, “Why is Filch…?” Oh, you’re talking about your voice, Micah.

Micah: I’m talking about my voice, yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m slow on the uptake here. But also, see, this actually was me sending in a voicemail to correct MuggleCast.

Andrew: You would. Yeah, I don’t know why we didn’t catch on to that. Everything happens for a reason in this series, so we should have caught on to that. Our apologies. Saturday morning brain.

Laura: I feel like that’s one of those things… we’re rereading the books, and we kind of catch on to things as we go through them, right?

Andrew: True that, true.

Micah: Yeah. But it’s next level, though, for Umbridge, really, this early on to be trailing Harry? We know she’s trying to goad him into getting detention – does it again in this chapter – but the fact that she’s really taking control of things, going through students’ mail, this is really government interference at its worst.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: I’m impressed, but not surprised. She did start the year by sending Dementors to Little Whinging.

Laura: Very fair.

Micah: One other thing I thought about, too, with Janelle’s voicemail – not to go back – but I thought maybe the direction she was going to take it was that Fred and George gave Katie the Blood Blisterpod so that practice would end, because Ron was in just such a bad position with the Slytherins being there.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: That’s true.

Eric: So it was like a mercy killing.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: If you want to look at it that way, yeah, sure.

Andrew: That’s a good way to put it. Thanks to everybody who sent in feedback, and Laura, I will be putting you in touch with Hypable HR after today’s episode.

Laura: Great.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and like I said, we are discussing Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix “The Hogwarts High Inquisitor.” And we’ll start with our seven-word summary.

Micah: Umbridge…

[Eric sighs]

Micah: Look, this has got to be better than last week. Last week was terrible.

Laura: Yeah, last week was rough.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: … oversees…

Laura: … the…

Andrew: … Hogwarts…

Micah: … professors…

Eric: … teaching…

Laura: … classes.

Eric: Yay!

Laura: I mean…

Andrew: I was thinking “habits.”

Laura: Yeah, that works too.

Eric: “Styles” works.

Laura: Yeah. “Habits,” “styles,” “methods.”

Eric: “Students.”

Andrew: Yeah. It’s a really interesting chapter.

Laura: Ugh.

Micah: So if we were to grade the seven word-summary based on the OWL scores – we learn a lot about OWL scores, actually, this chapter – what would we give it?

Eric: Pass.

Micah: Just a simple P.

Laura: Yeah, I think I’d go with “Poor.”

Eric: Oh.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I mean, Exceeds Expectations, because it was intelligible, and there were a lot of options left to us by the last word.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: So this week we’re going to take a little bit of a different approach to Chapter by Chapter. We’re not necessarily going to follow things in chronological order; I think that that’s something that we’ve done in the past. And we’ll make sure we hit on all the key points, but we really want to pull the meat out of the chapters and have the best possible discussion, so we’ll see how this goes.

Andrew: It’s going to go great.

Micah: Well, you planned it, so it has to.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: And what I really like about this chapter is there is so much Umbridge, and we are going to make sure that that Umbridge Suck count goes up quite a bit at the end of our discussion.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay, is that why you like that there’s a lot of Umbridge?

Micah: Yeah. What’s wrong with that?

Andrew: You just like seeing her do sick things, it sounds like?

Micah: What are you implying?

Andrew: That you’re messed up. Go on.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Andrew is like, “You’re sick, Micah! You’re sick!”

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve never heard somebody say, “Ooh, I like a chapter that’s filled with Umbridge.”

Laura: No, I get what Micah is saying; it pushes the story along.

Andrew: Got it.

Laura: It’s a much needed chapter in terms of pacing. I will say, as a former teacher, this chapter gave me so much PTSD.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Because you were evaluated?

Laura: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it’s pretty standard practice – especially when you’re in your early teaching career – to be observed, and even if the person doing the observing is doing everything right and not attempting to undermine you, it’s still a very nerve-wracking experience. And I have also had the experience of somebody who was directly interfering with my classroom environment…

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Laura: … so it’s not a fun place to be.

Andrew: It’d be like if J.K. Rowling was listening to this episode of MuggleCast, and we knew that she was listening. It would be very stressful, because we would want it to be perfect and get everything right.

Laura: Right.

Micah: Well, not anymore. We don’t care whether she listens or not.

Andrew: Ohh.

Micah: I don’t really care if she comes on the show.

Andrew: I still care.

Eric: I would be interested in seeing what OWL grade she gives the seven-word summary.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: She would say, “Just stop doing that segment, please.”

Laura: “Troll.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: To answer your question, though, Andrew, it’s great to see Umbridge matched up against her peers in this chapter, and you really start to get the full sense as to why she is at Hogwarts. A lot of it prior to this has just been her interrupting Dumbledore, or her giving Harry detention, and there’s just much more to her that we get to see in this chapter, and so that’s what I meant when I said that.

Andrew: Got it.

Micah: “Enjoyed” is probably not the best word to use, but… and it starts off really kind of where we left off in the last chapter. And we finally get to see why Percy was so anxious for Ron to take a look at the Daily Prophet the following morning, and we learn that the Ministry is seeking educational reform and that Dolores Umbridge has been appointed the first ever High Inquisitor, and Percy is all over this article. I’m not quite sure why, because in my mind, there is no credibility to Percy being quoted in an article…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and speaking on behalf of the Ministry. He’s not the PR rep for Fudge.

Andrew: It is awkward, isn’t it? And don’t most people in the wider wizarding world…? They might know of the Weasleys; they’re a big family, right? They’re redheads; they’re the redheads in the wizarding world. So a lot of people probably know this family, and they probably know that a lot of the Weasley family members are on Team Harry, I would think.

Eric: Well…

Andrew: And so it’s awkward to read Percy going against his family.

Eric: He is the Junior Assistant to the Minister, so he is the mouthpiece, I guess, if you consider that there’s probably also a Senior Assistant to the Minister, and the Minister himself, and maybe a PR department. So this is the guy who’s the highest rung of the ladder that the Daily Prophet could get in a pinch that shared their views, and the Ministry also wants to look busy all the time. So this is a guy who’s really super close to the Minister, though it might be objectively a couple steps removed, but who can speak, who has the authority to speak in the way that they get him to.

Andrew: Really, it should be Fudge being interviewed for this article, though, I think.

Micah: I want to go off what you said, though, Andrew, because I like the idea of the Ministry and the Daily Prophet positioning a Weasley – when the Weasley family, as you said, has so long been supportive of Harry – right in mainstream media. Here’s a member of this family who is basically speaking out against Harry and against Dumbledore. It’s not a great look for the Weasley family.

Andrew: There’s a crack in the Weasley family. One’s gone rogue.

Micah: We also get to hear from some… anxious parents who have voiced their concern…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And Dumbledore haters.

Micah: … about what’s going on at Hogwarts, and the fact – Andrew, prepare yourself – that Hogwarts is… fill in the blank.

Andrew: A security nightmare! Woop-woop-woop!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Oh, you don’t have the sound effect this week.

Andrew: I’m on the road. I don’t have the sound effect ready.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: But I’ll download it; hold on. I didn’t prepare that. But go on; I’ll play it later.

Micah: [laughs] And of course, they interview some of the best people that you possibly could for this article. One Lucius Malfoy, who we learn is 41 years old. That’s a odd piece of information that they dropped in there.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And he’ll appear…

Laura: Sidebar: All of these parents are so young.

Andrew: Yeah, they have their kids young.

Eric: Well, the war is on and all that.

Laura: [laughs] So you gotta get it on?

Eric: That’s directly lifted from another page of another Harry Potter book, for sure.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: There you go, Micah.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But yeah, the interesting thing here – and I know that this article is vaguely making some kind of attempt to be well-balanced – does not disclose that Mr. Lucius Malfoy, “concerned parent,” is a member of the Board of Governors for Hogwarts School. That is, to me, a conflict of interest if they don’t state it.

Andrew: And I’m also wondering how many anxious parents are there, really? There’s Lucius. There’s Seamus’s mother. It’s probably an exaggeration by the Ministry/the Prophet, right? That there are a bunch of anxious parents out there?

Laura: Yeah, I think this is a good example of “many people are saying this” without citing any kind of source or information.

Eric: It’s an excuse for the Ministry to respond as if these concerns were more mainstream.

Andrew: Right, and they interview the chief nemesis of Dumbledore. They didn’t have to look very far; they just needed one person, and Lucius was a very easy get.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: He was probably itching to do this.

Micah: And let’s not forget he’s also a Ministry employee, so now you’ve quoted two people that work within the Ministry about the situation.

Andrew: Right. Well, and then to Eric’s point, they don’t disclose that Lucius is a Ministry employee, but then a few paragraphs later, they quote Wizengamot elder Griselda Marchbacks, and they add right after her quote, “For a full account of her alleged links to subversive goblin groups, turn to page 17.” They’re immediately discrediting her.

Eric: Exactly. She’s the one who’s got some sense. She and Tiberius Ogden, whose name may be familiar to Harry Potter fans, both resigned in protest. How cool is that? Good for them.

Andrew: Yeah, but then they discredit her…

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: … because they did go against the Ministry.

Micah: I think it’s Marchbanks, just if we want to note that.

Andrew: Oh, did I type it wrong? Okay, sorry.

Eric: And what is a subversive goblin group, by the way?

Andrew: Yeah, I was wondering that as well.

Micah: So this is just an opportunity to seem fair and balanced but then immediately discredit the person by, as you said, being linked to subversive goblin groups, and I’m interested to get Laura’s thoughts here because this is a direct reminder, maybe, of certain media outlets in the United States that claim to be fair and balanced but truthfully are not. And the way that they go about it in this manner, on the surface, it seems like they are showing both sides of the story, but in truth they’re not, because they’re immediately trying to undermine that person a few sentences later.

Laura: Yeah, of course. Like you said, it’s the attempt to appear as though you’re being journalistic and you’re maintaining a level of integrity in your reporting, but by immediately referring to goblin groups as subversive… I wonder what those groups are. They’re probably groups about goblins’ rights or goblins being able to be treated like equal beings in the magical world, but in this world where goblins and house-elves are treated as lesser beings, that could be considered a subversive thought, especially looking at this particular group of people who are running things right now. So yeah, definitely very reflective of certain news outlets that exist now.

Eric: Something else that caught my eye during that was that she is also an elder. This is the news quickly scuttling away from her official title. In order to be an elder at the Wizengamot, you need to know your stuff, right? This is a very respectable position. It’s like saying longtime generals or longtime people in positions of authority for decades are lesser because of whatever other thing else they want to cook up.

Micah: But then they immediately turn around and tie her to these groups that are supposedly trying to undermine the authority of the Ministry. And let’s not forget that goblins are a group that has long been suppressed in many ways, and not unlike house-elves, they’ve essentially been forced to work in the banking industry and been treated very, very poorly. So I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody like Griselda Marchbanks was supportive of a group like the goblins and them advocating probably for their own rights.

Andrew: Another interesting part of this scene is we’re introduced to Educational Decrees, and they begin at number 22. Now, I looked around online; I couldn’t find the previous 21 Educational Decrees, and I’m wondering what they were. Does anyone remember anything about those? Did we ever hear anything?

Eric: Here’s the thing: so the Educational Decrees in this book, they become kind of a thing, right? There’s chapters named after them, and it’s a big “What’s the next one Umbridge will pass in her clear and rampant abuse of power?” The first 21 Educational Decrees, it used to be a method by which the government, the Ministry of Magic, could help Hogwarts. I assume one of those Educational Decrees was establishing the Board of Governors, something very innocent, something very just necessary for the running of school. Figuring out a budget, appropriating house-elves…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: A couple of… over the last thousand years that Hogwarts has existed, or over the last several hundred years that the Ministry has existed, they weren’t the same Educational Decrees of the like that you see in this book.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Eric: They were just probably bland, very innocent but necessary steps that the government just has to pass a resolution to be able to do this. But this is… what we’re seeing is the perversion of that in this book.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. They could have added some other Decrees, though, after what happened in Harry’s earlier years, like “No three-headed dogs shall be allowed on premises.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “No student shall be issued a Time-Turner,” or “Love potions shall not be used.”

Eric: Why is that, Andrew?

Andrew: Because it’s rape, love potions.

Laura: [laughs] I think Eric was hoping for some sound effects.

Eric: A sound clip.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: I was hoping for a… but okay, your answer was better, yeah.

Andrew: Sorry, I took that to a dark place.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Andrew, we don’t know, though. Perhaps those Educational Decrees were put into place and we just don’t know what they were, so it’s possible that some were created after Harry’s first or second or third year.

Andrew: Yeah, that’d be a great Pottermore article from J.K. Rowling, spelling out all the previous ones.

Eric: Hey, wait, now that we own Potter-no-more, we should write it.

Andrew: Oh my God, let’s just write all the articles we wish existed on Pottermore.

Laura: That would be hilarious.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, like “Students aren’t allowed to attend deathday parties.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Why Hogwarts is a security nightmare, by Andrew.”

Micah: “No more Triwizard tournaments.”

Eric: “Don’t listen to the plumbing. Don’t listen closely to the plumbing.”

Andrew: “Why there should be a Harry Potter TV show.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: This sounds like a great opportunity.

Andrew: It does.

Micah: Does it still redirect to Harry Potter Fan Zone?

Andrew: It does. Can we just have Andy publish these articles on his website? I don’t feel like setting up a whole new website, so… anyway…

Micah: It’s a good point.

Andrew: Also, we’ll point out just a little thing: 21 previous Decrees? 21 is a multiple of seven.

Eric: Ohh.

Micah: I see what you did there.

Andrew: 21 is 12 backwards, another big number in the Harry Potter series.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: All right.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling thought of these things, I know it.

Eric: You know the coolest thing? Real quick; this is a sidebar. How you can tell if a number is divisible by three?

Andrew: How?

Eric: If you add up the numbers individually as if they were single digit numbers, and that’s divisible by three, the whole number is divisible by three.

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Eric: It’s real cool.

Micah: That was Eric’s educational moment, brought to you by…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: That was Educational Decree number 50, or whatever.

Eric: Nice, I have a new segment.

Micah: Is that divisible by three? It’s got to be divisible by three.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The focal point of this chapter, really, though, is Umbridge’s visits to each of the teachers’ classrooms, and this has to put the school on edge. Teachers are essentially on the chopping block. And Laura, you mentioned this earlier; gives you PTSD, thinking back to the times when you were teaching and there was somebody who was coming in to evaluate your abilities. But one thing I was wondering is, is there not already a system in place at Hogwarts to evaluate teachers? And is Umbridge even qualified to evaluate some of these subjects? She’s a terrible Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, so what makes us think that she can evaluate Charms or Potions or Transfiguration?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, she’s absolutely not qualified to be doing this, but I think it’s a fair point to observe that it doesn’t seem like there’s any kind of standardized program in place in order to ensure a certain minimum level of quality in these classes. I mean, I’m sorry, but look at Professor Binns; he puts his students to sleep. He’s using such an archaic teaching method, which is just lecturing straight at the class for an hour, two hours, and not initiating any kind of dialogue with the students. So I think it’s fair to say that Hogwarts could do with a little bit of observation, but not this. This is not anything that is helping the education of the students; this is all about the Ministry retaining a level of power above the educational institution, which, if we’re talking about real world scenarios, this has happened. I mean, when you have a tyrannical government in charge, one of the first targets is always educational institutions, because those are where so-called “subversive” ideas are born.

Micah: Great points. And you can see that a lot of these teachers are… the emotions and the reactions really run the gamut in terms of how they respond to Umbridge being in the classroom. But somebody like Trelawney, who we all know is a bit of a kook…

Andrew: [laughs] A kook.

Micah: … she is being put into a really challenging position, because if we think about her discipline and what it is that she’s trying to teach these students, the expectation level of somebody like Umbridge is so high in terms of what a professor like Trelawney can deliver, and I don’t personally think that it’s fair that she’s being asked to make a prophecy in that moment. It really kind of undermines her profession and her abilities as a Seer.

Andrew: Yeah, and as Trelawney brings up, “The Inner Eye does not see upon command,” and even though we think she’s a kook, we know that she’s right; she just can’t pull these predictions out of a hat. I also do feel really bad for Trelawney in this moment, because you can tell she’s nervous as soon as Umbridge walks in, and J.K. Rowling writes that she made a “brave attempt to speak in her mystic tones, though her voice shook slightly.” So she was visibly nervous, and I’m wondering if part of it is because she does know that she’s a fraud.

Eric: Yeah, and Umbridge does peg her as a fraud quite early on, and that’s why she asks her to predict something on the spot. But here’s the thing: Even if Trelawney were a real Seer, none of these students are, and so the class… there’s a little bit of a disconnect here between Divination, between being able to be a Seer and have prophecies and all that stuff, and then teaching Divination. She could have had just a straight-up class where she’s instructing all the students to read their tea leaves and actually gleaning something out of… right now, they’re going through dream diaries, and apparently that’s something that happens after Umbridge leaves where they go through Harry’s dream, but because Trelawney’s default is to predict danger – and she does it to Harry later in the chapter, again, after Umbridge leaves – she’s all about the doom that it spells, and this… because that’s her default. She’s clearly not a good teacher, but she could get by without having to make a real prediction. Her job as teacher of Divination is not to make real predictions, which is where Umbridge fails. Umbridge just wants to discredit her. The job should be teaching kids how to use these skills to give themselves a leg up in the art of their own fortunes.

Laura: You know what this makes me wonder? I wonder if Divination was a class at Hogwarts before Trelawney was assigned to the post. Because we know that Trelawney was only given this job so that Dumbledore could keep her close and safe, so I wonder if this was even really considered a discipline at Hogwarts, because it is something that is just… it’s so individual; so few people are born with the ability to See that it seems a little bit futile to try and teach people how to do something that’s just an innate ability, right? So I wonder if this is just an excuse; this is Dumbledore’s cover for why she’s there, and maybe it was never something that was taught before.

Eric: That’s really interesting.

Micah: But you can take your Divination OWL, can’t you? That would lend me to believe that it’s been around for some period of time.

Eric: It’s definitely a discipline, but to Laura’s point, I don’t know if Hogwarts taught it before Trelawney, because we also see Firenze… oh, it’s Firenze in this this book, right? Also teaching it later this year. So that’s also as much for Firenze’s safety, because he’s not safe among his herd, among his own people, because he’s kind of an outsider that Dumbledore allows him refuge in the school to teach this class. So that’s sort of twice that Dumbledore could have used the guise of Divination as a subject that’s being taught at Hogwarts to really safeguard two people that are on his side or are valuable to him.

Andrew: I’m looking this up right now, and Trelawney and Firenze are the only known Divination teachers, and the Harry Potter wiki also says that Dumbledore had originally decided that this course should no longer be taught at Hogwarts; it being considered obscure and inaccurate to most. However, seeing the applicant for the teaching post was the famous great-great-granddaughter of a celebrated Seer, Dumbledore decided to give her a chance. When she made a prophecy that impressed Dumbledore, she was granted the position, so there you go, Laura.

Laura: It’s very interesting.

Micah: Laura, the voice of reason.

Laura: Oh, thank you.

Andrew: Laura could see something we couldn’t. Maybe you’re a Seer! Oh my God!

Laura: [laughs] Maybe. I think… also something I wanted to bring up here, and this is a very exaggerated comparison, right? Because you have these two polar opposite characters who are very much caricatures of two different ends of the spectrum, but it does remind me of some of the scrutiny that qualitative and humanitarian disciplines receive from more data-driven disciplines. I’ve definitely encountered folks in the field of education who don’t have a ton of appreciation for the humanities and don’t really see their usefulness, and this interaction between Umbridge and Trelawney really reminds me of that, that because Umbridge doesn’t understand, she just doesn’t respect it as a discipline. So even if Trelawney was a good teacher, I think that she was already at a massive disadvantage the moment Umbridge walked in the room.

Andrew: Does Hogwarts ever have guest speakers? They just come in for a day and talk about what they do? Maybe that would have been a great role for Trelawney. She comes in once a year, she gives a presentation, and then she’s out.

Eric: Right.

Micah: I like what Laura said, though, because I think that the lack of understanding and maybe even the lack of care that Umbridge has towards something like Divination, you almost think that she comes into that class knowing exactly what it is that she’s going to try and do to push Trelawney’s buttons. And I’m also curious, too, if all of these classes receive the same types of evaluations, because how you would evaluate a Divination class versus a Potions class has to be vastly different, and that goes to what I was saying earlier about qualifications for Umbridge to be evaluating these professors. But just one other thing on these two – and I think Laura said how they’re at such different ends of the spectrum – it’s really ironic that Umbridge asks Trelawney to make a prophecy or a prediction, which is that practical application, where in her own class, Umbridge is so by the book and not willing to allow her students to do more practical types of things. So I just thought it was a little bit comical that she’s evaluating teachers on that when she herself is not engaging in that kind of teaching.

Eric: That’s impressive, yeah.

Laura: Yep. It’d be funny if somebody walked into Umbridge’s class and was like, “Can you show me how to produce a full Patronus right here in front of everybody? Or can you show me how to defend yourself against one of the Unforgivable Curses right here in front of me?” Surely she’d be like, “Uhh…” feel very put on the spot.

Andrew: Yeah. In bonus MuggleCast today, we will talk about the specific prediction that Trelawney makes for Umbridge, and if Umbridge thought back to that prediction, once she does meet her [laughs] multiple demises in the remainder of the Harry Potter series. So let’s move on to McGonagall’s class.

Micah: Which I think probably, as readers, we were all anticipating.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: It seemed like Harry was anticipating this moment as well.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And McGonagall is not taking anything from anybody in this chapter, and she could care less, quite honestly, that Umbridge is in her classroom.

Eric: She even ignores her.

Micah: Yeah, straight-up ignores her.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I think at one point tells her… doesn’t Umbridge ask whether or not she noticed or received note of the appointment?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and McGonagall says, “Of course I did, because I didn’t react to you walking into my classroom.” Harry feels that McGonagall lost her temper in front of Umbridge; he brings that up later in the chapter, but I don’t think McGonagall did.

Laura: No, I don’t think so either. McGonagall actually… she was doing exactly what a teacher should do during classroom observation, which is ignore the observer and just act like it’s business as usual. And Umbridge was interfering with that, so she smacked her down, but I don’t think that she lost her temper.

Andrew: Yeah, she was witty, she was sharp, but she wasn’t angry. She handled it the best that she could, I think, especially considering that Umbridge was interrupting her.

Micah: Do you think that Umbridge respects McGonagall in any way, kind of peer to peer? If she were to respect anybody, I feel like McGonagall might be that professor.

Laura: I think she’s intimidated by her. I don’t know about respect.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s someone who’s been at Hogwarts for a while. She’s very well-respected amongst the teachers and Dumbledore, and Umbridge is probably impressed by the fact that she, Umbridge, can push McGonagall’s buttons and McGonagall won’t react in the way that she’s expecting. So yeah, I think there’s respect for her.

Micah: And we know from Umbridge’s backstory that she’s always failed, prior to the Ministry, to rise in positions of power, and it’s referenced at Hogwarts that she failed to do this as well when she was a student, so I wonder if seeing McGonagall basically be second-in-command to Dumbledore, if there is some sort of level of respect there.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: But I agree on the intimidation point. I do think that she fears McGonagall a bit as well.

Andrew: In the scene, Umbridge also asks how many years McGonagall has taught at Hogwarts, which is also this week’s Quizzitch question, and McGonagall says 39 years, yet in Crimes of Grindelwald, we see her at Hogwarts. So there are some theories about how this could be. Maybe she was a teacher assistant back then. Maybe she was teaching back then, left Hogwarts, then came back. There’s also been theories that McGonagall has been using a Time-Turner, and somebody actually called in with this theory. We were getting it a lot when Crimes of Grindelwald first came out. In my opinion, there’s no way that McGonagall is jumping around the timeline to teach. That just does not make sense to me. Why would she do that?

Laura: Yeah, well, and also, using a Time-Turner doesn’t impact your age, does it?

Andrew: Right, exactly. She’s younger. She’s actually younger, so that doesn’t make sense. But what are everyone’s theories here as to why she was at Hogwarts in Crimes of Grindelwald?

Eric: It’s a retcon. It’s clearly just…

Andrew: Fan service.

Eric: Whoever wrote that script didn’t care enough about previously established…

Micah: Can you explain what a retcon is?

Eric: I forget what it stands for. It’s something… it’s a contradiction to canon that has been retroactively – there we go…

Andrew: There it is.

Eric: … retroactively adjusted or fixed in… usually when it’s given an explanation, but this time we don’t have one. It’s just one of those things. So it would be… it’s a retcon that she was at Hogwarts that early in the timeline when previously she stated “39 years this December,” which means 38, so in 1995 she had been there for 38 years, so 1957 she came to Hogwarts, if I’m doing that right. That’s a full 30 years after Crimes of Grindelwald is set, was supposed to be.

Laura: Yeah, and also, don’t we know her actual birthday? And according to that, she would have been a child during the second Fantastic Beasts movie?

Andrew: I think people did the math to figure out her birthday through various pieces of information. In fairness to J.K. Rowling, maybe she will give us more information in the next movie.

Micah: I don’t think it’s coming, so don’t expect it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think she has to. I think she has a responsibility.

Micah: I don’t think… she may play an active role; she may not. It could have just been one of those nice moments for Potter fans during that scene at Hogwarts to have another familiar face. And personally, I just don’t see her playing much more of a role in future films. I think it was just nice to have, and I think especially given the reaction, you’re not going to see her moving forward.

Andrew: Casual fans don’t care about the math, though.

Eric: Yeah. She was tremendously well cast; even the very few moments, I think, in Crimes of Grindelwald that we see her, I think she’s excellent. And another reason for having her in Crimes of Grindelwald is to show that even in the ’20s, when there’s supposed to be another headmaster, whether it’s Dippet or somebody before Dippet – it’s not supposed to be Dumbledore running the show – but having McGonagall there also shows that it’s still Dumbledore’s show. Dumbledore/McGonagall, the two person act, are in charge of everything that goes on at Hogwarts, and it’s just a shorthand way of showing how in control Dumbledore is by having McGonagall be his deputy assistant even in the ’20s.

Andrew: I actually bet that we will see her again, because remember that report a few months ago that said that there’s going to be more Dumbledore in the next movie to please the fans? McGonagall could be a part of that, of those Dumbledore scenes. That would please the fans, the casual ones. It may bother us, but most people, I think, will be pleased. Anyway.

Micah: So now you’re saying I need to retract my statement about her not being in the next one.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, I think…

Micah: Or not playing a significant…

Andrew: Well, we don’t know for sure, but that’s my guess.

Micah: It’s a good point. But if she is there, I think we’re just going to need to be completely dismissive of the age factor.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: We’re just going to, as fans, need to accept the fact that they decided…

Andrew: [singing “Let It Go” from Frozen] “Let it go, let it go…”

Micah: Yeah. Perfect, Frozen.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: People need to get into that Frozen mindset and just recognize that she’s being put in the films because she’s another familiar face for Harry Potter fans.

Andrew: As Elsa says, “McGonagall’s age never bothered me anyway.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: But I did look up… the headmaster around that time should, in fact, be Armando Dippet.

Eric: Well, there you go.

Micah: Prior to him, it was Phineas Nigellus Black. Do we want to talk about the other professors briefly?

Eric: Yeah, it’s worth a mention that she stopped in on Grubbly-Plank’s.

Andrew: And Grubbly-Plank had nothing but good things to say about Dumbledore, which Umbridge did not like.

Eric: Otherwise, another really good class by Grubbly-Plank. That’s good. And she also… so Fred and George in the morning say that she also sat in on Flitwick’s, or at lunch they say this. And according to… we mentioned how Umbridge is being disruptive during McGonagall’s, and that’s not what she should do. She also apparently just kind of stayed in the back of the room during Flitwick’s class. I’m so glad she didn’t walk right up to him and ask him about his blood status.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Or his heritage, or something crazy racist.

Micah: Like the movie, where she measures him.

Eric: [laughs] That’s right. In the movie, that’s pretty funny.

Andrew: Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.

Eric: But she does, apparently, ask one of the students – Angelina, who happens to be in the back – whether or not his class is good, and Angelina is nothing but smiles.

Andrew: Why would you measure Flitwick? I mean, that’s… what does that have to do with anything?

Eric: It’s racist. It’s just meant to be completely intolerant.

Andrew: I think in the movie it’s supposed to just be funny, but if you really think about it, it’s pretty awful.

Micah: It is awful.

Andrew: Size doesn’t matter, Umbridge.

Micah: That’s why I really encourage people to go onto the Wizarding World site and read the backstory on Dolores Umbridge, because she is a pure-blood maniac and she has zero tolerance for anybody that does not fit that mold, and it can’t be overstated. And that just goes to show you why she acts the way that she does in this chapter, but also, as we were talking about… and I think it’s why somebody like David Yates chose to include that scene with Flitwick, even though it’s not in the book; it’s a representation of how strong her feelings are about people that don’t conform to the way that she thinks people should be. And it’s a very short read, but it’s worth checking out.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And I mean, Flitwick, according to Fred and George, always gets people through their examinations. After all, this is what Hogwarts is all about, right? Exams.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: And so Flitwick, in regards to the question whether or not Umbridge respects anyone truly, I think she should respect Flitwick for at least being competent. Same with Grubbly-Plank. But because Flitwick is not fully human, and because Grubbly-Plank is a Dumbledore fan, Umbridge will not give those teachers the full marks that they deserve.

Micah: But don’t you think she knows going into this? She may be able to knock Flitwick here, or knock McGonagall there, but she knows the professors she most likely can take down, and that’s her goal in this, is she wants to remove a few of the professors that Dumbledore maybe even put into position himself. Do we assume…?

Andrew: And she probably knew which teachers she wanted to take out before even sitting in on their classes.

Micah: Right, exactly.

Andrew: We do get a scene in Umbridge’s classroom – this happened before she sits in on McGonagall’s class – and she assigns the class a chapter to read. Hermione can’t help, of course, but state that she’s read the whole book already. Umbridge asks her a question about the reading that Hermione correctly answers, but she also can’t help but state that she does not agree with the author, so this causes a kerfuffle, Umbridge takes five points from Gryffindor for Hermione stating her opinion, and then, of course, this annoys Harry, and then Harry gets himself in detention again when he speaks out. I’m wondering why Hermione decided to say that, “Oh, I’ve already read the whole book, and I disagree with the author.” Doesn’t she know that these thoughts would annoy Umbridge?

Laura: Well, yeah, she’s resisting.

Micah: Yeah, and this is a big miscalculation on the part of Hermione, even though she is resisting, and I think it sets up well what happens at the very end of the chapter in her trying to convince Harry to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts. But the wheels that get set in motion as a result of this, as it relates to Umbridge, is not fair to Harry on the part of… I think Hermione needs to be a little bit more aware in this moment and know that Harry is always going to look to come to her defense if she tries to challenge somebody like Umbridge. And I don’t think she was really proving anything by saying that she had finished reading the book. She’s not going to get on Umbridge’s good side, let’s say, in this type of a moment, and so I was actually kind of disappointed in Hermione in this particular chapter for doing this, and it ends up hurting Harry at the end of the day. That said, Umbridge is also looking for any opportunity to get Harry into trouble, and if we look at the example in this chapter, she again finds a way to bring up Voldemort without directly bringing up Voldemort, because she brings up Quirrell and that immediately sets Harry off, and Harry mentions the fact that Voldemort was attached to the back of his head, and we know anytime that Harry brings up Voldemort, it’s going to get him detention.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So I think Umbridge is being very, very strategic in what she’s saying to the class, because she’s looking for that opportunity, and I think that’s what Angelina is trying to tell Harry; that’s what Hermione is trying to tell Harry; that’s what McGonagall is trying to tell Harry. “You have to understand this woman is out to get you; just keep it cool,” but he can’t do it.

Eric: I think, to Hermione’s credit… I think Hermione’s question starts out fair enough, innocent enough. She has read the chapter, so what should she do with this class time? The class is so useless, what can she do? It’s a mark against Umbridge that Umbridge doesn’t have an alternate assignment instead. Well, I mean, I guess, to be fair, nobody expects Hermione to have read the next chapter and the next chapter and the next in advance of the class. She quizzes Hermione and, of course, gets into the scuffle about what Hermione feels. But there should be something else to do. This is just… it’s revealed for what it is, busy work, right? I mean, Hermione… it is a form of resistance, because I think Hermione did expect there to not really be anything for her to do, but Hermione, I guess, could have just not asked and could have pretended to read the chapter again.

Laura: Well, and I think also she’s attempting to make some use of her time in the classroom, because she’s like, “Well, if all Umbridge wants to do is make us read theory, perhaps I can engage in a conversation about the theory and a healthy debate about the theory,” but Umbridge won’t even do that.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And I think, I mean, this is Hermione’s breaking moment, obviously, as we see later in the chapter.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Micah: It’s also interesting that in a chapter where Umbridge is evaluating the other professors at Hogwarts, she – in this moment, in this kind of back and forth with Hermione and Harry – is essentially evaluating the other Defense Against the Dark Arts professors as well. She goes through the list and talks about how unqualified they were, with the exception of Quirrell, who seemed to be okay. But again, that’s the moment where Harry jumps in and responds because he can’t help himself and gets him detention. And McGonagall gets the news of the fact that Harry has gotten another fresh round of detentions…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and she’s pissed now too. She’s like, “Five points from Gryffindor for you not keeping your cool. I gave you some biscuits the last time this happened, but no cookie this time around.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “No cookie for you.”

Micah: It’s a teaching moment, though. I think this is important because – and of course, Hermione is in agreement – but it’s a teaching moment for Harry. It’s showing him that despite everything that’s going on, he needs to keep a level head, and he needs to understand what is going on beneath the surface, and the more that he gives to Umbridge, the more detentions he’s going to get. That said, I think what’s happening in these detentions – and it’s brought up in this chapter – it needs to be brought to somebody in an authority position, because he’s being abused.

Andrew: Yeah, and another thing we’ll talk about in bonus MuggleCast today is how McGonagall would have responded to Umbridge’s detention style, because Harry says that she’d go nuts, but would she? We’ll talk about that over on Patreon. I do have to give Harry credit, though, for still being willing to speak up in class, knowing that he’s going to get himself into detention, knowing that he’s going to have to cut himself again. I mean, that takes some guts.

Eric: I think if J.K. Rowling wrote some of the other scenes where he’s still doing the same thing, where he’s still doing lines and… they’re very… a whole week’s worth of detentions goes by, and J.K. Rowling is like, “Yeah, now his hand was just bleeding more; it’s cool.” But if she had actually shown those scenes, I think we would have sided against Harry. I think it would have been a little bit clearer that Harry is going overboard in his defense. Here’s the other thing: He gets in trouble for talking about Quirrell having Voldemort on the back of his head. We don’t know how much of that is public knowledge. We don’t even know how much of that Umbridge herself can be reasonably expected to suspect. We don’t know what Dumbledore’s report to the Ministry was like on what exactly the goings ons were surrounding the Sorcerer’s Stone. It seems kind of like an inside job that Dumbledore is protecting the Sorcerer’s Stone for his buddy Nicolas Flamel. We just don’t know what the cause of death was ascribed to Quirrell, and so for all Umbridge knows – to play a little bit of devil’s advocate – Harry could be spouting complete and utter nonsense about the Dark Lord.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Laura: Very true, and she’s already conditioned to believe that about him anyway.

Eric: So this round of detentions… eh, might be on Harry.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, they’re definitely on Harry.

Micah: Doesn’t he also get another one thrown his way for responding to Malfoy talking about what happened to him with Buckbeak?

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Yes! I refuse to award an Umbridge Suck count to Umbridge for that particular thing, because it’s Harry again. He’s just so indig… his Hufflepuff comes out, really; he needs to defend his friend Hagrid, and so he’s like, “Well, only because you’re too stupid to listen to what the teacher says.” It just doesn’t… it just reaffirms everything Umbridge thinks about him.

Andrew: Harry wasn’t wrong, but he shouldn’t have spoken out of turn. Harry needs a Twitter account where he can go and be passive aggressive about everything.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: When I’m angry, sometimes I just go onto one of my private Twitter accounts and I bitch. That’s what he needed.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Can we make one for him?

Andrew: Oh, yeah, that’d be great.

Laura: Like, Harry’s private Twitter account?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Angsty Harry.

Andrew: Okay, so we’re going to build out Potter-no-more. We’re going to create a Twitter account for Harry. We’ve got a lot of stuff to do this week.

Micah: And speaking of Twitter, I know we mentioned J.K. Rowling earlier, but it appears that she updated the header…

Andrew: What?

Micah: … with some per… what do they call it? Twitter… it’s not the profile picture.

Andrew: The cover art. Oh, she has a new profile pic, too.

Micah: The cover art.

Andrew: J.K. Rowling, stop using Photo Booth. Everybody stopped using that so long ago.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Use a Snapchat filter. [laughs] No, there… yes, you’re right.

Micah: Do you think she’s got Snapchat?

Andrew: Maybe. I don’t know.

Micah: One other big thing to take away from this chapter was the conversation at the end between Harry, Ron, and Hermione. It is the precursor to the formation of Dumbledore’s Army, and it’s really a great moment of Hermione trying to instill confidence, I thought, in Harry, given everything that has been happening to him throughout the course of this book. One connection I did want to make, though, to Fantastic Beasts is that he is kind of solving his hand in essence of Murtlap, and it is the Murtlap, right, that attacks Jacob in the first Fantastic Beasts movie?

Andrew: Yeah, see? J.K. Rowling loves writing this stuff.

Micah: What exactly is essence of Murtlap? What do they do to that poor creature to get the essence out of it? Do they squeeze it?

Eric: Well, you slit its throat…

Andrew: Nooo!

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: You take a needle; you extract some of his inner goo. He’s got tentacles, these Murtlaps, so maybe you just pluck a tentacle off of his back.

Micah: You squeeze the tentacle like you would maybe with a squid? The ink comes out?

Andrew: Yeah, you milk it like a cow.

Micah: You milk… [laughs] Murtlap milk.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But it is really kind of Hermione, and it doesn’t… I don’t think he thanks her for making it, but she prepared that for Harry. It’s a beautiful thing.

Micah: Yeah, it’s very… I feel like the two really bond at the end of this chapter in a way that we maybe haven’t seen in this series so far. I mean, Ron is present; he’s there. He’s kind of a cheerleader in the background; I don’t want to diminish his role. But it’s really Hermione coming across here as a friend, as you said, making this essence of Murtlap for him, and then convincing him that he needs to step up and help teach those who want to learn Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s the old one-two. Hermione lends a helping hand, and then once he’s appreciative of her, she drops the big idea on him.

Micah: So you think she goaded him in?

Andrew: In a way, yeah. Harry kind of owes it to Hermione, actually, for all the help that she’s given him with homework. This is the least he can do after all this assistance. [laughs] But this scene is also very interesting because Harry experiences a lot of self-doubt and imposter syndrome. So Hermione is listing off the reasons why Harry would be the best for the job – teaching others Defense Against the Dark Arts – and Harry just goes, “Oh, well, I’m not really good at anything… That was luck… If Fawkes hadn’t turned up… That was a fluke… I nearly always had help…” He just can’t believe that he is actually talented. What does everyone here think? Is Harry talented? Did he get lucky? Is it a mix of both?

Laura: I think it’s a mix of both.

Andrew: Don’t tell Harry that.

Eric: Harry has definitely got the intuition. Things seem to work out in his favor. He’s a perpetual source of Felix Felicis before he even knows what that is.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But I think that even in reading the last couple chapters, Harry is like, “Man, now I have to resolve to do better studying,” after Snape gives his essay back with the OWL level grading scheme. Harry knows that he’s not a good student; I don’t think he’d be that surprised if you accused him of being a not good student.

Andrew: He almost might think that he almost wasn’t a wizard. He was with the Dursleys for so long, maybe he never would have been found, and he would have been suppressing this magic forever. But what’s also interesting is that in a moment of rage, Harry says he always did what he did because his back was against the wall as he looked death in the eye, but then he unintentionally admits he has real skills when he says he had to use his own “brain or guts or whatever.” That’s a quote. So maybe he comes to realize in this moment that he actually is talented, because when his back is against the wall, he kicks into high gear and takes down the enemy.

Eric: There’s something to be said for that.

Micah: I don’t want to call it untapped potential, but I think there’s something deep within Harry that knows what to do in these types of moments, whether it’s touching Quirrell’s face or it’s showing that loyalty that is going to… Harry needs to remember Fawkes…

Andrew: A sixth sense.

Micah: Yeah, it’s almost like a sixth sense. Fawkes wouldn’t have shown up if Harry wasn’t loyal to Dumbledore in some capacity, so… and even with the Dementors, he didn’t think that he had the ability, right? He thought it was his father; no way could he possibly produce that kind of level of Patronus. But yet it’s all kind of within him, so that’s why I think of it as untapped potential, and Hermione is trying to draw it out of him and say, “Look, you are good, and you do have these abilities. We need to learn from you. We need to understand how to go about doing these things.” I do think there is a bit of luck involved in some of this – I think there’s always luck involved to some capacity – but Harry is also talented; he just doesn’t realize that he is.

Andrew: And one factor here is that Harry is only 15, so he has reason to be in denial. He’s so young.

Micah: Right, insecure. We’re all insecure about different things at different points of our life…

Andrew: Definitely.

Micah: … so there’s no reason to assume that Harry isn’t going to be. And one thing that I remember is this conversation, the parts about how he had help, takes place in the Hog’s Head in the movie with a bunch of different members of those who want to be in Dumbledore’s Army surrounding him. It was interesting to see it be more of a one-on-one conversation between him and Hermione, with Ron kind of sprinkled in.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think that there is… J.K. Rowling is paying tribute to the trio’s inner relationship, because at this point up in the book, he’s been really mean to them. And he still is; he breaks the bowl with the Murtlap essence in it – and immediately regrets it – because he’s so angry. But it needed to be Hermione who took it upon herself to sell Harry on this whole idea of being a teacher, because that reconciles a lot of what’s been going on with the trio up to this point in this book.

Andrew: Yeah. And then what do we make of Hermione using Voldemort’s name for the first time? Do you think…? It seems like that calmed Harry. Why does that calm him? I’m wondering if it’s because Hermione finally made this direct acknowledgement of the threat.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And also, I mean, she is the smartest witch of her age, so I think that it makes a real difference for Harry to hear her finally have the courage to say it.

Andrew: Yeah, he knew that it was difficult for her to say that, but she did because she really wanted to convince Harry in this moment that he needs to teach this class. It was moving.

Eric: It was very moving.

Micah: Yeah, I like the way you referred to it as a calming effect on Harry. I think it was just important for him to…

Andrew: To hear it, yeah.

Micah: … see that somebody else that’s his age… yeah, that for so long, every… even the adults, right? They shudder. They say, “Don’t say his name.”

Andrew: It’s similar to when we have something boiling inside of us, but we don’t want to talk about it with somebody else. Maybe we have an issue with someone but we’re afraid to bring it up, and then you talk about it, and it feels so good to get it out there. I feel like that’s what’s happening here.

Micah: But it’s… exactly, and it’s also legitimizing what Harry has experienced, because she’s giving validation to his name and saying that he is real. “We’re not going to talk about him like he’s some figment of people’s imaginations and refer to him as You-Know-Who; I’m going to put a name on this.” And I think that means a lot to Harry, and that’s why… I know I keep going back to the fact that him and Hermione just have this connection, I think, at the end of this chapter – and I don’t want to be dismissive of Ron – but I think it’s really important for their relationship.

Andrew: It is a beautiful moment. They should dance in a tent sometime. I think that’s what’s next for this relationship.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Harry just needs to be shown that change is possible. He needs to believe in himself, that he himself can affect change, and I think Hermione finally saying the name is a way of showing him that the future isn’t set. I think he’s genuinely shocked and stunned a little bit by Hermione here, but it works to give him a little bit of hope that, “Oh, I can show people that the threat is real, and it works to all of what I’m trying to do here,” and it really convinces him more than anything else.

Andrew: Right. I like what you said about “The future isn’t set yet.” Harry can take this moment into his hands and change the future.

Micah: And sneaky Hermione, she is hurting Umbridge in the best possible way, and that’s effectively replacing her with Harry and making him the Defense Against the Dark Arts professor.

Andrew: Right. And Harry gets to bother Umbridge by doing this secretly. He knows that this would drive Umbridge mad if she found out, so it probably feels good to work under her nose without being detected.

Eric: Yeah. I know we said that the beginnings of Dumbledore’s Army were founded, I think, several chapters ago on the Hogwarts Express when Luna came into the fold and Ginny was there with them, but the pieces have been being set, and it’s really the next chapter where things come to a head and all the pieces come in, like what to name the group, and all this stuff really, really come to a fold. And it’s really exciting to see Hermione’s impassioned plea to Harry be such a big out of the left field. I wasn’t expecting it. It’s certainly a cool turn of events.

Micah: And also, the last chapter, J.K. Rowling kind of name dropped Dumbledore’s Army during the conversation with Sirius.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Those little breadcrumbs when Harry asks Sirius.

Eric: And as a kid, who doesn’t want to see students overthrow their teachers?

Andrew: [laughs] The bad ones.

Eric: And running the school, yeah. So I think that there’s a lot of appeal to the general plot idea of this book. We get so heavy on Harry’s emotions sometimes, but I think the general plot line is really satisfying.

Andrew: All right, let’s review all the times that Umbridge sucked this chapter. Micah was really excited because there are plenty of moments to work with. First of all, more painful detentions for Harry.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: I’m glad you finally used that.

Laura: Wait, what was that?

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: That was really quick; I need to extend it.

Micah: Yeah, listen closely.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: Oh, it’s her laugh. Okay.

Andrew: Yeah. Or a duck, or an animal? I don’t know… when you hear it like that, it sounds like it could be an animal. Refusing to call on a student in class; she ignored Hermione. That’s another one.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Not having a backup assignment for those who have read it.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Embarrassing teachers in front of other students; talking badly about other DADA teachers. That’s bad.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Anything else?

Laura: I think that about covers it.

Micah: What about one for just being appointed Hogwarts High Inquisitor?

Andrew: Okay. Yeah, sure.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: Yeah, with no qualifications.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, with no qualifications; there you go.

Andrew: All right, so that’s five, so now we are up to 27 times that Umbridge sucked. Sorry, Umbridge.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Might make that clip a little longer.

Laura: [laughs] And we’re only in Chapter 15.

Andrew: In the longest book ever.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yep.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, well, we do have some threads to connect today. One of the big ones I noticed is in both Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban and Chapter 15 of Order of the Phoenix, Trelawney is very much undermined openly in front of her class by Hermione and Umbridge. So we’ll all remember in Chapter 15 of Prisoner of Azkaban when Hermione finally gets fed up with Divination, is openly mocking Trelawney in front of her peers, and eventually just up and leaves the class when Trelawney tells her that she just doesn’t have the talent to be able to pursue the noble art of Divination.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Something worth noting here is that Hermione notes that she could actually be catching up on something useful like Cheering Charms, because she had just missed that class earlier. And then, of course, in this chapter of Order of the Phoenix, Umbridge is undermining Trelawney during her class inspection, and Charms is actually one of the few classes that Umbridge really can’t find anything negative to say about. I thought this is an interesting contrast, because here we have Trelawney being undermined by two very determined female characters, but I would argue that Hermione’s undermining, while maybe a little bit immature and not the best approach, I think it comes from a good place, ultimately, which is her desire to learn and her desire to be well-educated and be good at school, whereas Umbridge is just trying to suppress anything that might go against the Ministry. So it’s a really nice contrast between Books 3 and 5 there. And then also, these school-related injuries, with Hogwarts being a security nightmare. Of course, we all remember Draco Malfoy was injured by Buckbeak during Care of Magical Creatures class in Prisoner of Azkaban, and between Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix, Draco is all too happy to share the trauma that came from that injury. During this chapter in particular, Draco speaks up about this hippogriff injury during the Care of Magical Creatures class that Umbridge is observing. Meanwhile, Harry is being very determined about hiding his hand injury from all of Umbridge’s detentions, which, again, really nice contrast because it’s Draco overblowing an injury that was truly an accident that he brought on himself, whereas Harry is trying to hide something that’s deeply messed up and representative of where the world is at this point, because he has a larger goal in mind, of not letting Umbridge know that she’s getting to him. And then this is a nice little breadcrumb, but I was so excited when I found it. So when reading Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 15, this is the chapter where Trelawney introduces crystal balls to the classroom, and Ron says, “I thought we weren’t starting crystal balls until next term,” and then Harry says, “‘Don’t complain, this means we’ve finished palmistry,’ Harry muttered back. ‘I was getting sick of her flinching every time she looked at my hands.'”

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

Laura: I know! I was like, [makes an explosion sound] mind blown.

Andrew: I still can’t believe J.K. Rowling plans all this. It’s just shocking.

Laura: I know!

Andrew: There’s no way; it’s got to be a coincidence. [laughs] Some of it, at least.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I don’t think the implication here is that Trelawney necessarily knew this was going to happen, but it’s just a nice little breadcrumb that really ties everything together, and I think that it’s brilliant foreshadowing on her part.

Andrew: How could J.K. Rowling connect all these threads, yet she screws up McGonagall in Crimes of Grindelwald? Come on. Did she fire the person who used to help her connect all these threads? Something’s not adding up here.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time now for MVP of the Week. I’m going to give it to McGonagall for handling Umbridge’s visit to her class so well. She nailed it, and she didn’t lose her temper.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Hermione for getting the ball rolling on the DA.

Andrew: That’s important.

Micah: I’m going to give it to Griselda Marchbanks for defending Dumbledore in the Daily Prophet. Despite the fact that the Daily Prophet wants to discredit her for being a goblin lover, I am going to give her credit this week, give her the MVP for supporting Dumbledore and Harry.

Andrew: Yeah, he needed that.

Eric: And I’m going to give it to Professors Grubbly-Plank and Flitwick for passing Umbridge’s tests.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “No biscuits for you!”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Seinfeld reference.

Laura: I went with Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “Birth of the resistance.”

Andrew: That sounds like a Star Wars title.

Laura: I know, I thought that too.

Andrew: [laughs] I almost tried to piggyback off of you, but I couldn’t think of another one.

Micah: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “High on power.”

Eric: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 15, “Angelina’s fury.”

Andrew: Okay. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in. MuggleCast@gmail.com; you can write or send a voice memo that way. You can also visit MuggleCast.com and click the “Contact” link at the top of the website. You can also hit us up on social media; we are @MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. If you don’t contact us, at least follow us; we would really appreciate it, and you’ll be kept up to date on the show, and you’ll see lots of show and Harry Potter goodies each and every week.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

Eric: Now, Micah, when you asked this question last week…

Andrew: I did. It was mine.

Eric: Andrew, when you asked this question last week, I was sure that it was…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Clearly somebody listened to the show last week.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or didn’t make it all the way through.

Eric: I edited the show; I made it all the way through!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Well, you zoned out.

Andrew: Go ahead, sorry.

Eric: And let me apologize for… past the hour and ten minute mark, if there’s any errors in editing, it’s because I just gave up and fell asleep.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Clearly, wow.

Eric: Andrew, last week, when you asked this question, I thought it was a trick question.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Because… a really smart, confuse the listeners, trick question.

Andrew: No, I would never do that.

Eric: Well, because when Umbridge asks how long McGonagall has been teaching at Hogwarts, the reply is “39 years this December.” It’s not December yet, so technically, the correct answer is 38 years.

Andrew: Oh, oops.

Eric: The only person who answered 38 years specifically is Jabberwock815, on Twitter. Did the math.

Andrew: Oh my goodness. I’m so sorry, listeners. I didn’t mean to miss…

Eric: But several other people directly quoted “39 years this December.”

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: Which is equally true, so I would give that correct quiz answer to Pranvi, Sarah a.k.a. Weensie, ReeseWithoutHerSpoon, Tara, Robbie Stillman, and Stephanie @YoRufusOnFire. I thought you were being really clever there, dude.

Andrew: No, I wasn’t. I’m sorry.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But good catch to many of the listeners. What’s this week’s question?

Eric: This week’s question is: What does Luna say Cornelius Fudge’s army is made up of?

Andrew: All right.

Micah: Losers.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Tweet the answer to MuggleCast on Twitter. And hey, we would really enjoy if you joined our community of listeners today; Patreon.com/MuggleCast is where you can do it. We have tons of benefits there, including bonus MuggleCast; we’ll be releasing a new installment this week. Also, you’re going to want to pledge now, I promise you, because later this year, everybody who pledges $5 or more is going to be getting one of our best physical gifts ever. Everybody’s asking for this gift, and you’re going to get it because it’s our 15th anniversary. We’re still putting the plans together, so we’re not ready to announce it yet, but patrons will be the first to know what it is, and patrons will also be the first to see some brand new graphic artwork that we’ve been working on recently. It’s done! It’s an idea we came up with when we attended Podcast Movement in Orlando last year – that’s a podcasting conference – and we attended that thanks to your support on Patreon, and we learned a lot about the industry, and we’re applying those lessons still. So thank you to everybody who supports us; we really appreciate it. Your support goes a long way. Thank you, thank you, thank you. All right, that does it for this week’s episode of MuggleCast. Thanks for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #450

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #450, Weekend at Hogwarts (OOTP 14, ‘Percy and Padfoot’)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: Eric isn’t here this week, but we are joined by Pat once again. Hi, Pat. Welcome back.

Pat: Oh, hey, I’m back.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Laura: Welcome!

Andrew: Micah is also back too. Micah, you went searching for biscuits last week, right?

Micah: That’s right. I was actually working on the lease agreement for my new shop here in New York City. I didn’t know if you guys talked about it on the last episode, but I’m opening up a store here in the Flatiron District.

Andrew: Oh, that’s fantastic. Congratulations. We didn’t know that was you.

Micah: Four stories.

Andrew: Yeah, what’s on that fourth floor?

Micah: Can’t tell you.

Andrew: Ooh.

Micah: It’s like the Department of Mysteries.

Andrew: Is it a goat petting zoo?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You’ll have to find out. Come and visit.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Micah, this must mean you have a lot of money. I have questions.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I’m not surprised.

Micah: But in all seriousness, was in Chicago this past weekend. Got a chance to see Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, we partied it up.

Micah: Went out for some pizza and some beer. Patrick, I’m disappointed that you didn’t join us, but apparently Andrew didn’t invite you.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Just know that whenever I’m in town…

Andrew: I needed one-on-one time. I needed one-on-one time with Micah, you know? Just me and him, talking life, talking Harry Potter.

Micah: Yeah, that’s true. We don’t see each other in person all that much, so I understand. But Pat, know that anytime I’m in town, it’s an open invitation. Andrew doesn’t have to invite you.

Pat: Aww.

Andrew: Wow. Well…

Pat: I’ll just leave five minutes after him and show up.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah, just tail him wherever he’s going.

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: If I brought him, I couldn’t have put it on the MuggleCast credit card, so…

Micah: Oh. Yeah, you could have.

Andrew: I didn’t want to do that. Oh, I could have? Okay.

Micah: You’re asking the wrong person about spending money on the MuggleCast card after what I did during the holidays with the giveaway.

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Andrew: Micah would have been like, “Have two pizzas, Pat, because you’ll be on next week.”

Micah: Well, I kind of did that. Remember, we were like, “Should we go with the medium?” I’m like, “Go with the large. Take some home.”

Andrew: “Go with the extra large.” Believe it or not, we do spend our money wisely, I do want to clarify, despite the jokes here on the show.

Micah: Yeah. And on Friday – we’re recording on Saturday – so yesterday, I got a chance, finally, to go over to the Lyric Theater in New York City. I work in the city; it’s not that far away. But every time – and I think twice before I’ve gone over there – the store where you’re supposed to pick up your pin for Wizarding World Gold was closed, and I think it’s a miss, number one, to not include the hours of the store in the Wizarding World app. I think that would be very helpful. But I did go online and looked it up, and left work just a little bit early – because they closed at five o’clock – to get over there. I finally got my pin, and I felt bad because they only had ten minutes until closing. But you know when you show up in a store or anywhere right before they’re about to close, and they give you that look?

Andrew: Right, they’re like, “Ughhh, not another one.”

Micah: So I said to the guy, I’m like, “Look, I’m only here for a pin.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And so he walked me through the process of how to go about it.

Andrew: So you got your pin. Are you happy?

Micah: I got my pin! Yeah, it’s cool. I don’t know what I’m going to do with it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: It’s one of Dumbledore. It says, “Those that we love never truly leave us.”

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good one. I would want that one. Pat is also a new Wizarding World Gold member; I gifted it to him for Christmas, though I gave it to him on the day J.K. Rowling sent out that tweet, and it just felt a little…

Laura: Eugh.

Andrew: It wasn’t the best day to give him Wizarding World Gold.

Laura: Yeah, I also got – because that day was my birthday, coincidentally – and I also got a couple of birthday gifts that were Harry Potter-themed. And I was initially so like, “Oh, yay!” And then I was like, “Ahh.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Ehhh.” Yeah, and Pat, you got the journal. You like the journal, right?

Pat: Yeah, it’s cool looking through it, how they customize it. I didn’t realize that they would start everybody’s journal different. My next month after I redeemed it is February, so mine starts in February, which is kind of cool because then you’re getting the full year and not having to miss out on a few months, or go back and retrace what you did or whatever.

Andrew: Yeah. Wizarding World Gold has done a couple of interesting things so far: They did an early release for Harry’s Patronus Funko, and they just announced the other day new Harry Potter Moleskins. Moleskins are very popular journals, and they have teamed up with Wizarding World to do some official ones. And they look beautiful; I’m actually really tempted to buy these. And it’s doubly tempting when Wizarding World Gold is like, “You can get early access to these journals and they’re 20% off.” That’s been interesting to see. But at this time, Wizarding World Gold still isn’t…

Micah: Gold?

Andrew: I don’t think any of us would super recommend getting it.

Micah: No.

Andrew: It’s not something that every Harry Potter fan needs.

Pat: Right.

Micah: Especially if you have to go to a place three times just to get a damn pin.

[Andrew laughs]


Muggle Mail


Andrew: Okay, so we have Chapter by Chapter this week for everybody; looking forward to discussing Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, but first we have some emails. Speaking of merchandise, this email is a follow-up to last week’s discussion. It’s from Robbie.

“As a wand collector, I hope these House wands are actually the wands of Godric, Helga, Rowena, and Salazar. This would be the most unique new way for them to create a new wand product, and it fits with my hope for a HBO Max Founders TV series. I own one of each Noble Collection wand, as well as wands from the parks and custom wooden wands (112 different wands in total). Many subscription boxes have released House wands that simply have a badger or snake handle, and I hope that isn’t the case here.”

So that’s interesting. So there have been House wands out there.

Pat: I love his idea.

Laura: Yeah, I agree with Robbie here. I really hope that it’s not just a generic, like, “Here’s your House emblem” wand. It would be really cool if it was specific to the founders.

Andrew: Well, Micah, this is apparently your store. Do you care to confirm or deny?

Micah: I can’t comment at this time…

Andrew: Wow.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … but let’s just say Robbie may or may not be onto something here.

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Andrew: Great.

Micah: Though I will say…

Andrew: What do you think…?

Micah: Oh, go ahead.

Andrew: What do you think of that store, Micah? That they’re building.

Micah: I think it’s really cool. I’m quite honestly surprised that they didn’t do something like this sooner, but I’m sure getting the right property in New York City is not the easiest thing to do if that’s always where they wanted to build something like this. Though, what they have at least available for us to know what’s going to be there, it sounds really cool. I’m interested to check out this cafe section with the coffee – I know you talked about it on last week’s episode – and the butterbeer, and it seems like it’s going to be a destination for people who live in New York, not just people who are visiting from out of town, so I’m excited.

Andrew: All right. Laura, do you want to read the next email?

Laura: Sure, the next one is from Darin of Salt Lake City.

“I just wanted to touch on the last few chapters of Order of the Phoenix where you’ve been discussing prefect duties. We learn later on that only teachers can take away House points. We learn this when Malfoy first becomes part of the Inquisitorial Squad. He takes away points from Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ernie, and Ernie confronts Malfoy about it, telling him that only teachers are allowed to take points.”

Andrew: Hmm, okay. Thank you for that clarification.

Laura: Yeah, thanks for doing that homework for us.

Micah: The next email comes from Pat, who says,

“In reference to Episode 449, I think you all forgot about everything Hermione tried to do in Book 4 to boycott house-elves working at Hogwarts. Before she created SPEW, she went on her own hunger strike for a few days and tried to convince others to do the same. That is also when she tried to get Fred and George to tell her how to get into the kitchens to talk to the house-elves. She then realized that her doing it alone wasn’t going to change anything, which is when she started wolfing her food down to get to the library to research house-elf history and founded SPEW.”

Andrew: Ooh, thank you for those reminders, Pat. And this is actually the Pat here on the show today.

Pat: Yeah, I was going to say, this Pat sounds real smart.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No, this is great because I specifically last week was like, “Okay, Hermione, there are other things that you can do apart from trying to trick them into picking up your wooly hats that you’re leaving all over the common room.” And it’s true, she did do all these things. It’s a good reminder. But I still kind of question the way that she’s doing this in Order of the Phoenix.

Pat: Oh, for sure.

Laura: Like, “What kind of impact do you actually think you’re going to have here?” But she goes on to be Minister of Magic later, so she probably fixes it then, hopefully.

Micah: I thought you raised a really interesting point on last week’s episode: Wouldn’t it have to be somebody at the level of Dumbledore that presented the elves with clothes in order to allow them to go? And maybe I’m wrong, but I was always under the impression that the house-elves that worked at Hogwarts, that it was – at least under Dumbledore – somewhat at will. And like I said, I could be completely wrong here, but it does seem overall, though, that the house-elves that work at Hogwarts are definitely treated better than the ones that we’ve seen throughout the course of the series, like Kreacher, and Dobby when he was with the Malfoys. That’s certainly not excusing the way that they’re treated as a people, but that’s always the impression I got. And like I said, I could be completely wrong.

Andrew: I think that’s a good point.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think they’re definitely treated better at Hogwarts, but at the end of the day, it’s kind of like the argument that you’ll sometimes hear people make about – and I don’t mean to take this to a dark place – but it’s kind of like when you hear people be like, “Oh, well, during slavery, these particular slave owners, they were nice to their slaves,” and it’s like, “Well, they were still slaves.”

Andrew: No, you’re right, you’re right. I think just all things considered, the point is that Hogwarts is probably a good place to work. We don’t know how Dumbledore treated them behind the scenes; there may be a lot more to that story that we don’t know.

Laura: Yeah, I wish we did know, you know?

Pat: And I think that the house-elves knew that what Hermione was doing wasn’t going to release them, I think, but I think they were just insulted by the fact that they were trying to be tricked, which is why they just let Dobby [pronounces it “Doe-bee”] be the only one to clean the common room.

Andrew: Dobby. Haven’t we gotten into a fight about this before?

Pat: Probably. I’m still going to call him Dobby. [pronounces it “Doe-bee”]

Andrew: By the way, this email really was from Pat. A few weeks ago he came up to me and said, “Andrew, this was wrong on MuggleCast,” and I’m like, “Don’t tell me that to my face. Email in.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: So then I’m looking at the email the other day before we invited him on this week’s show, and I see this email from him. [laughs] He didn’t tell me he was sending it.

Laura: I love it.

Micah: Is it really from you? Or is he just making that up?

Pat: Yeah, I had to.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Andrew: No, I’m serious, yeah. Final email today is from Barbara.

“I am a long-time listener (almost from the beginning) and probably one of your oldest (age-wise) fans. I respect your opinion and I need some advice. On my next birthday (a big one), I plan to get my first (and probably only) tattoo. I wanted to get a small lightning bolt. Since I made the decision, I have been very excited about it and was looking forward to the occasion (in April). Now that the whole trans controversy has happened, I am not sure what to do. Harry Potter has had a big impact on my life. Even though I am a straight white woman, the message of love and inclusion is very important. I would love to hear everyone’s thoughts. Thanks for your help.”

Laura: I still think you should do it.

Andrew: I agree.

Laura: If it’s still something you feel strongly about, because Harry Potter is about much more than the writer. The fandom that has been created, the community of people who are loving and accepting of each other, I think is far more reflective of what Harry Potter is about than one of J.K. Rowling’s tweets, so I think you should get it.

Andrew: Yep.

Laura: I don’t think that you should let that stop you. I have a friend who’s actually in the process of having a Deathly Hallows tattoo design for her of the Three Brothers, because that story means so much to her, and she was like, “Yeah, I’m not going to let J.K. Rowling being out of touch on this topic… I’m not going to let that stop me from expressing myself and expressing how much this story has meant to me.” And I think that that’s also very apropos because we learn throughout the Harry Potter books that Dumbledore, one of the most revered characters that we respected and trusted and thought could do no wrong early on, he turns out to be a really flawed character.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I think that’s an important lesson for us to take away, is that everyone has some kind of flaw, and that doesn’t excuse it, but it also doesn’t mean that you have to take this black and white approach to what you like in your life.

Andrew: Right. That tattoo is about Harry Potter and your experience with the books and the fandom. If you were considering getting J.K. Rowling’s face tattooed on your arm, then we might be like, “Maybe think about that a little more.” [laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: “Wait to see what else she does.” But this is specifically about Harry Potter, not J.K. Rowling, so absolutely go for it. I have to say, I think a lot of people are completely unaffected by J.K. Rowling’s tweet in terms of the relationship to Harry Potter. It’s still all about the story and the fandom. People aren’t… there isn’t going to be this mass departure from the Harry Potter fandom. There’s going to be a mass departure from loving J.K. Rowling as much as we once did, but for everybody in their day-to-day lives in this fandom, everybody still loves Harry Potter as much as ever. That’s not changing. Pat and I were at a Christmas party a few weeks ago, and the whole group – like, 20 people – got on the subject of Harry Potter. This was after J.K. Rowling’s tweet. It did not get brought up at all. Everybody’s still obsessed with Harry Potter as ever. It’s just… this doesn’t affect anything. And nobody’s going to look at your tattoo and be like, “Oh, well, did you see that J.K. Rowling tweet?” They’re going to say, “Oh yeah, that story is incredible, and that’s awesome that you got that tattoo.” So go for it.

Pat: Yeah, and I was telling someone the other day when they were asking about it, and I was like, “Well, Harry Potter, it’s still my religion; it’s just Jo isn’t my Jesus anymore.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Ooh, that’s a really good way to put it.

Andrew: “She’s my Satan!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, that’s too harsh.

Laura: No, I don’t think that either. I think that it’s a very human thing to show the less than desirable parts of yourself, and I think that’s what we’re going through with J.K. Rowling right now. It doesn’t mean that she didn’t craft an incredible story about friendship and inclusion and the importance of loving each other. Her one tweet doesn’t take that away from us.

Pat: Yeah, and if that message is a part of the tattoo that you want, then that’s what you are going to remember when you look at it. You’re not going to remember everything else. You’re going to remember the part of the story that you love, and that’s what matters when getting a tattoo like that.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say, I always would struggle with the fact of telling somebody to put something permanent on their body if it’s not something that they’re 100% committed to, but it seems like you had made this decision long before J.K. Rowling tweeted what she did, so I think if it still carries that level of importance for you, then why not?

Andrew: Who is your new Jesus, Pat?

Pat: Um… we’ll see.

Micah: Lupin.

Andrew: Dumbledore. I vote Dumbledore.

Laura: Ugh, I don’t think Dumbledore is a good Jesus either.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Pat: I mean, Sirius has always been my favorite character and he’s also super flawed, so I don’t know.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Chapter 14, “Percy and Padfoot,” and we’ll start with our seven-word summary. Pat, you start. For “Percy and Padfoot,” Pat.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Continue the alliteration.

Pat: I’m not continuing the alliteration. We’re just going to start with the day of the week, so Saturday…

Micah: … begins…

Andrew: … with…

Laura: Which way do I want to take this? I want to set you guys up for success.

Andrew: Aw, so thoughtful.

Laura: Yeah, I’ll just say… letter…?

Micah: You should say “S.”

[Andrew and Pat laugh]

Pat: Saturday begins with letter… sending…

Laura: Y’all can do it.

Micah: … from…

Andrew: … Harry.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: New rule; we have to complete this in 30 seconds. This takes way too long.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I was thinking “and Quidditch.”

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Pat: Ahh.

Laura: “Letter sending and Quidditch.” It’s fine, it’s fine.

Pat: Yeah, I think starting with Saturday wasn’t the best. [laughs]

Laura: No, I think it’s fine.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, well, let’s get into the chapter discussion. And speaking of Saturday, I thought, “Saturday morning, ain’t nothing like it.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And we all get together on Saturday morning for the most part to record the podcast; I’m sure we’re all excited to get up and out of bed to do that.

Andrew: Wow, this chapter is already so relatable.

Micah: Isn’t it?

Pat: Yeah, and Harry didn’t sleep in, and we didn’t either.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But I think we can all, for the most part, sympathize with Harry. The week that he’s had, maybe we’ve not had that rough of a week, but it’s Saturday. It’s the weekend. He’s ready to just kick it and relax and not have to think about too much of anything. Of course, we know that’s not what ends up happening, but it’s the weekend. Let’s relax. No homework. Hermione, stuff it aside for now. Don’t we all agree?

Andrew: Let him relax. Let him enjoy some #SelfCare.

Micah: Exactly.

Laura: It’s all about a balance, you know?

Micah: Exactly!

Andrew: I remember the days when I didn’t have anything to do over the weekend. That was good times. That doesn’t happen anymore as an adult.

Laura: Nope.

Andrew: Thanks in part to podcasting.

Micah: Exactly, blame the podcast.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And Harry gets up on the early side; he goes down and tries to start writing a letter to Sirius, and one of the things that he notes is the fact that it must have been really difficult for Ron and Hermione to try and write him letters over the summer. And I thought to myself, “Oh, really? So now you’re starting to sympathize with your friends and see how difficult it was for them to write you letters.” Now, did Ron and Hermione actually write him letters? I thought that was the whole thing was that he wasn’t hearing from them.

Andrew: He wasn’t hearing from them because I thought they were instructed to not write the letters for security reasons, and I guess they couldn’t come up with enough cryptic language to get a letter to him.

Micah: Right. Harry, though, does a really good job of hiding the truth in the letter that he crafts to Sirius. But as noted, it did take a little bit of time; it’s not like he could just sit down and say whatever’s on his mind, because he’s writing to a escaped convicted felon, and as we know from earlier on in this book, the Ministry is out looking for him, and it’s quite possible – and we learn more, actually, in this chapter – that the Malfoys are aware of the fact that Sirius is in London. It’s noted in the Daily Prophet a little bit later on. So what do we make of Harry’s ability here? I wondered if this is something that Harry innately has in him and he’s this clever, or is it just J.K. Rowling being a clever writer? Do we think this is something that Harry is good at, or is it just J.K. Rowling’s writing?

Pat: I think Harry has gotten good at it with how much he can’t mention anything dealing with magic when he’s home at the Dursleys’, so I think he’s always – at least for the past four summers – had to think of ways to speak to them when he has to that’s not going to set them off.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that. I think it’s also J.K. Rowling exercising her creativity, and it’s a fun moment to read in the chapter.

Laura: I think it’s also maybe a little bit of foreshadowing showing Harry’s competencies to be an Auror. This very much sticks out as a talent that an Auror might have.

Micah: That’s a great point. Some of the lines that he has in the letter that he’s writing to Sirius are “Professor Umbridge is nearly as nice as your mum,” “The thing I wrote you about last summer happened again in detention,” and “We’re all missing our biggest friend.”

Andrew: Yeah. This made me wonder how we would cryptically describe each other in a similar letter, if we couldn’t reveal anything about Micah. The deep-voiced one?

[Pat laughs]

Laura: Yeah, our bass-iest friend?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And Laura, you would be our… something about your hair.

Laura: I was going to say colorful. Colorful friend.

Andrew: Colorful lady.

Laura: There we go. “We miss our colorful lady.”

Micah: Our colorful voice of reason.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: How would you guys describe me?

Micah: I would start out the letter, “Yeah, yeah, all right.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: And then just go from there.

Laura: We miss our “Yeah, yeah, all right” friend.

Andrew: “Yeah, yeah, all right!” Very early on in the MuggleCast days, for anybody who doesn’t understand that.

Laura: Yeah. I would say, “We miss our ringleader friend.”

Andrew: Aww.

Micah: So Harry goes up to the owlery to send note to Sirius, and while he’s up there, he looks out one of the windows and into the Forbidden Forest, and it’s noted that he sees a Thestral kind of popping out and going back down. And I know it’s hard to think back, but if I were Harry, I think I’d be a bit concerned. I don’t know if when we were reading this through first time around, “What’s going on with Harry here, where he’s just seeing things?” And it would probably be a bit concerning.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, here in the Muggle world, the existence of creatures is binary – either they are or they aren’t – and here there’s this weird middle ground? But yeah, if I was Harry, I would be panicking over the fact that nobody else can see these except for Luna thus far, and I would probably go to a teacher and ask about it, because if he can see this and nobody else can, then he’s crazy.

Laura: I think the only teacher he would feel comfortable expressing that to is the one who’s not talking to him.

Pat: Right. I think if Lupin was still there, he may have spoken to Lupin, but…

Andrew: But even McGonagall? I mean, she’s a trustworthy figure. Or maybe Hermione? She has to know about Thestrals.

Micah: It’s a good point.

Laura: I mean, apparently not, though.

Pat: It’s kind of like the same thing in Book 3, where he’s seeing what he thinks is a Grim all the time and then realizing, “Oh, this isn’t really anything bad” later on. This is kind of the same thing where he is going to realize that the Thestrals aren’t really that ominous for him at some point; it’s just right now, he’s like, “Okay, am I seeing an omen? Am I not?”

Micah: Right.

Laura: Very true.

Micah: And they both symbolize death. I don’t know if we’re stealing Laura’s connecting the threads, but if we go back to Book 3 with the Grim and Thestrals, they both kind of have that same significance.

Laura: Oh, absolutely. And I think also there’s just an element of anxiety about being different here. I think Harry is hesitant to bring it up because he realizes nobody else sees them, and he’s like, “Oh, great, another thing that makes me stand out. Wonderful.”

Andrew: Right, he doesn’t want to announce it because it’s not going to help his case concerning Cedric. “Well, if he’s seeing these Thestrals that we can’t see, how do we know he actually saw Voldemort? Because we haven’t seen Voldemort either.”

Pat: Yeah, and I think when he mentions it in the beginning of the book to Ron, and Ron is like, “Yeah, nothing’s there…” Or is that somebody else that he says that to?

Laura: I think it is Ron.

Micah: It is right up face-to-face with Ron, I think.

Pat: Yeah, so I think that has maybe shook him a little bit, too, where he’s like, “My best friend is thinking I’m nuts, so maybe I just shouldn’t say anything to anybody and figure it out later.”

Andrew: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Micah: And you could tie it in, even going back further, to Chamber of Secrets when he’s the only one that can hear the Basilisk and he doesn’t know what that is or what the significance of it is. He has a history of hearing and seeing things that other people can’t.

Pat: Yeah, which emphasizes Laura’s point even more.

Micah: Well, while he’s up there, his crush shows up. Cho pops into the owlery, and first thing that comes to Harry’s mind is, “Let’s talk about the weather.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I feel like we’ve probably all been there, right? When we’ve been having a conversation with somebody that we’ve been attracted to, and we can’t think of anything to talk about, so we default to something that probably we think makes us come across as being not as cool or interesting. It’s just, what’s the quickest thing that comes to mind? Oh, the weather. Let’s talk about the weather.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, and every business meeting ever over the phone starts with, “How’s the weather where you live? Well, let me tell you how it is.”

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Nobody cares. It’s such worthless small talk. I hate it.

Micah: It’s throwaway. Poor Harry. But by the time the conversation is over, he’s feeling pretty damn good about himself, so it’s all right. Even though they started off on the weather, there’s smoother pastures ahead.

Andrew: [laughs] If I was at Hogwarts, I would probably start off with, like, “What spells have you learned recently?” Or like, “How’s your wand doing?” Or “How’s your owl?”

Pat: Yeah, especially since Cho is a year older, they are in different classes. They’re in different…

Laura: That’s true.

Pat: Yeah, there’s way more to talk about.

Laura: He could always be like, “Hey, do you see that boney, winged horse down there? Kind of weird.”

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: “Oh, you don’t? Me neither.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “Just testing you.”

Pat: Hey, that could have been… maybe that was in a lesson that Cho already had. She could have told him right there if he would have asked her.

Micah: It’s true. One thing that they’re able to bond over, though, is Quidditch. And they talk a little bit about that, and Ron gets brought up in Harry’s mentioning the fact that Ron is now going to be a member of the Gryffindor Quidditch team, and Cho refers to him as “Ron the Tornado hater Weasley.” Or maybe I just made it up. I don’t know that she calls him “Ron the Tornado hater Weasley”; I think I just made that up.

Andrew: I think she says, “How’s the Tornado hater?” Maybe.

Micah: Something like that. The only reason I included that is because it was the answer to the Quizzitch question from last week.

Andrew: So twice in this scene, I thought it was interesting that Cho stands up for Harry. So she says, “You were really brave standing up to Umbridge like that.” And then just a couple minutes later when Filch barges in, she comes to his defense again, and that’s love.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: To defend somebody twice in the same hour. Like, wow.

Micah: Yeah. And Harry considers even showing Cho his hand during this meeting of the two of them, because he’s just so invigorated by the fact that she is calling him brave and saying that it was great that he stood up to Umbridge. It’s like you get your… it says his insides burned. It’s like he’s floating on air; he feels like a million bucks by the end of this conversation.

Laura: I think it’s funny that he has this impulse to show her his wound, because Malfoy does the exact same thing in Prisoner of Azkaban after he gets attacked by Buckbeak. He’s very much exaggerating the status of his wound – not saying that Harry is doing that here – but he does it largely, I think, to get attention from his peers, but primarily Pansy Parkinson, who’s fawning over him during this, and now Harry has this very same impulse with Cho.

Andrew: Yeah. And Harry has quickly learned that he can trust Cho and Cho will be understanding, and he wants emotional support from her.

Micah: But I also think it’s really important in this particular moment that Harry is receiving some sort of validation and some sort of support, and the fact that it’s coming from somebody who maybe isn’t necessarily in Gryffindor, who he’s known, and obviously Cho means a lot to him. But I just think with everything that he’s been through this year, everything that we’ve read about up until this point, the fact that he’s able to get some sort of support from somebody is important to him, because he hasn’t gotten a whole lot of that throughout Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I think it’s important that it’s from Cho because they have shared trauma.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And Harry is super relieved, when he first sees her back at school, that she doesn’t hate him and doesn’t hold him responsible for Cedric’s death, like everybody else seems to.

Micah: Yep. Well, Filch ends up crashing the party. He’s our second wand block of Order of the Phoenix; Ron was the first.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Filch is now the… I guess you can even throw Mrs. Norris in there too, so three wand blocks so far between Harry and Cho. But as you all said, Cho comes to his defense and really kind of saves the day, and Filch skulks off because there’s no proof that Harry was sending Dungbombs. So do we ever learn who sent Filch after Harry in this chapter? Who tipped him off?

Pat: I think it’s just Mrs. Norris running off because he crosses her path on his way to the owlery…

Micah: That’s right.

Pat: … and she runs off, and he’s like, “I’m not doing anything wrong!”

Andrew: If I were Harry, I would be head over heels for Cho at this point.

Micah: Harry is on cloud nine, though, leaving the owlery, and after he parts ways with Cho, he meets up with Ron and Hermione at breakfast. And I don’t think we touched on this; it maybe would have been two chapters ago. We kind of glanced over the fact that Hermione is now receiving the Daily Prophet to keep tabs on what is going on in the outside world. Another notch or feather in Hermione’s cap in this book, just given all the smart things that she does. And one thing that’s mentioned is that Sirius supposedly is hiding in London, and this is cause for concern, because we talked about, pretty extensively, how Sirius made a massive mistake by deciding to accompany Harry to King’s Cross, and it seems like now the hunt is in full effect for Sirius where he’s actually hiding.

Andrew: Yeah, and it confirms Draco’s hint earlier in the book that he knew that Sirius was on the platform when they went off to school. So yeah, it’s worrying, and for the spotlight to be turned back onto Sirius again is a big problem, because they don’t want that at all right now, and now Sirius has this extra pressure of staying under hiding. I mean, he could have stayed hidden and he wouldn’t have been in the newspapers and people would have just forgotten about him, but he had to go out there.

Laura: Well, as we learn later in the chapter, part of the fun for him is the risk of getting caught.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And I was also wondering… I feel like we’ve probably touched on this at some point, but the use of the name “Snuffles” is not lost on me, given that Sirius gets snuffed later in the book.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And I’m just like, “Oh, this is so painful.”

Andrew: I think of that Sesame Street character, Snuffleupagus? Yeah, that’s it.

Laura: It’s endearing. On its face, it’s a super endearing name, but then you’re like, “Eugh, there could actually be a deeper meaning here.”

Micah: Yeah. It sounds like a name that you would give a puppy, right?

Andrew: Right. I’m going to name my next dog Snuffles.

Pat: I like Pancake better.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Um, okay.

Micah: There is one other article that draws attention of Hermione in the Daily Prophet, and it is about Sturgis Podmore, and it’s a very brief column that is written. And I thought we could read it here and discuss it a bit, because we did talk on a previous episode how Mad-Eye Moody mentioned that Sturgis was missing when he was supposed to be accompanying all the kids to King’s Cross. So it says, “Sturgis Podmore, 38, of number two, Laburnum Gardens, Clapham, has appeared in front of the Wizengamot charged with trespass and attempted robbery at the Ministry of Magic on the 31st of August. Podmore was arrested by Ministry of Magic watch wizard Eric Munch, who found him attempting to force his way through a top-security door at one o’clock in the morning. Podmore, who refused to speak in his own defense, was convicted on both charges and sentenced to six months in Azkaban.” So that is not good for the Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: No. And as we learn later, he has been Imperiused, and maybe Moody was more concerned about this than we actually know, because yeah, this is a major problem for them. They have to be wondering, “Could another member of the Order go the same way?”

Micah: And why do we think the article was so short and basically buried within another column that’s in the paper?

Laura: I mean, I would assume that this… I mean, because we know the Daily Prophet is very much aligned with the Ministry at this point, so I don’t think the Ministry would want a lot of flashy front page coverage about the Ministry being infiltrated, right?

Andrew: Right, yeah, it’s not a good look.

Micah: It could lend credence to the fact that Voldemort could be around somewhere, or there could be evil forces at work trying to infiltrate the Ministry.

Andrew: However, if it was already established at this point that Sturgis was a part of the Order of the Phoenix, then this would have been a much bigger story for the Ministry, and they would have spoken about how Dumbledore’s crackpot gang of rebels are trying to break in, and…

Micah: Definitely. So after breakfast, it’s clear that Ron needs some help, needs some practice before practice at Quidditch, and he asks Harry straight up for some help. And I thought this was a cool bonding moment, a cool moment of friendship between the two of them that you don’t always get to see. And Harry really goes out of his way to help train Ron. Hermione isn’t too keen on the fact that they’re going off to play Quidditch; she would rather they focus on their homework, but I think Hermione is being a bit of a party pooper here. I think that especially Harry… Harry has had a hell of a week. Let him get on his broom and go fly around for a bit.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, I mean, Hermione is basically all work and no play, at least in this chapter, and it’s not really up to Hermione to decide what those two do. So I mean, she has a point about getting their homework done, but if they want to go play Quidditch, let them. And I also think Harry may be interested in helping Ron because, as we discussed earlier in our Chapter by Chapter series, Ron and Hermione are in position of power now, being prefects. Harry might feel a little cast aside; he doesn’t feel as important, so being able to train Ron might give him that feeling of importance that he could be yearning for, and being in a position of power with his Quidditch skills.

Laura: That’s true. I think also, just in some defense of Hermione, she knows that – she has four years of experience with it thus far – that these two not completing their homework and not putting in the study time results in more work for her when she has to correct her friends’ homework and hold their hands through it.

Pat: Yeah, and she also knows Harry has been in detention all week, so he hasn’t had time to even do homework, so I think she’s just thinking for Harry’s mental state later on, like, “You should do this now so that you aren’t going to be frustrated later.”

Andrew: Would you guys be like Hermione, always helping out your friends? I think I would get sick of it after a year or two.

Laura: So I always liked school, and I never minded coaching friends through assignments. Hermione takes it a step further, though, and she kind of does their homework for them.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: We see later in this chapter she’s just writing Ron’s essay for him. I would not do that. That is just a bridge too far. That’s cheating.

Andrew: Yeah! She’s got enough to do herself in her own schooling, and yet she feels like she has to help Harry and Ron all the time. That would just get really tiring for me after a couple years; I would just be like, “Yo, get it together and do it yourself. I’m not going to hold your hand through the rest of your lives.”

Micah: I think it’s about prioritizing, and right now for… I don’t know. It’s hard because for Ron, the focus for him, obviously, is Quidditch, and that he’s made the team and that he needs to deliver, and this is something that he’s always wanted to be a part of. And it’s mentioned, how many other members of his family have played Quidditch at Hogwarts? And we know Ginny comes on in the next book, and goes on to make a career out of playing Quidditch. So I think for Ron, that overshadows any work that he needs to get done for school, and for Harry, he’s just had probably his worst week at Hogwarts, and Quidditch is an escape for him. So that said, they should still be able to prioritize. “Okay, we’re going to take this amount of time to go teach Ron, and then we’re going to take this amount of time for practice, and then we need to spend the rest of the time that we have on our studies.” That’s just the way that it goes. As you get older as a student, you have to be able to figure that out. Hermione has been able to really do that since year one; Harry and Ron, not so much. But I agree, I think it’s a little bit extra that Hermione is doing the actual work for them. I don’t know if Percy’s letter has anything to do with that, though; if she really just feels that bad for Ron in that moment.

Andrew: That’s the impression I got. Her attitude kind of changed in an instant after that letter.

Laura: Because earlier on in the chapter, she tells them, “I’m not going to help you with your homework if you do this.”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: And Ron was like, “Do you think she was serious about that?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Because I really need her help.” But before we get to Percy’s letter, we wanted to bring up an issue at Quidditch practice, which is that Draco and his friends are watching the Gryffindors practice. And that just seems like that shouldn’t be allowed, not just because it’s unhealthy to taunt the other teams, but they can also be picking up the strategies that Gryffindor are practicing, and that seems like something that would be illegal. You think about in football where each team’s plays are super secret, and they cut to the coach during the game and they’re covering their mouth so you can’t tell what play they’re about to call, and this is basically what the Slytherins are witnessing here.

Micah: Right, or compare it even to what’s going on right now in baseball with the Houston Astros and the sign-stealing that went on there.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: And if people aren’t familiar with that, I would just say Google “Houston Astros” and you’ll see the fallout that happened as a result of that. But it’s similar.

Andrew: Laura is a big sports ball fan. She knows all about it, right, Laura?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Following it very closely.

Micah: Aren’t we talking about that on Millennial on Monday?

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big deal.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Laura is like, “What?”

Micah: That was a plug, too.

Laura: Yes, thank you.

Micah: I’m very much looking forward to joining Millennial on… Laura, do you know I’m going to be on the show Monday?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I do, yeah.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, we talked about this.

Andrew: Micah is going to be on the other podcast that Laura and I do. It’s called Millennial; check it out. MillennialShow.com. Okay, anyway. Back to Quidditch.

Micah: It’s been years. It may even have been the last time we were talking about Order of the Phoenix on this podcast.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: That was probably the last time that I was on Millennial. But anyway. Yeah, I agree, though; I think that it shouldn’t be allowed, right?

Andrew: No.

Micah: Because I want to say, don’t Slytherins have closed practices at one point in the series? I feel like there’s something mentioned about how Snape booked the Quidditch pitch for the Slytherin team.

Andrew: Right, right, because they wanted to practice and they couldn’t because Slytherin beat them to it, I think.

Pat: Yeah, I think, though, I’ve always found it weird that their practices aren’t supervised. At some point they are, that Madam Hooch is there, but the majority of the practices, she’s not there to instill any rules at all.

Andrew: What is she doing?

Pat: Which, if you think about any other sport, there’s always a coach there, some sort of adult supervisor to keep everybody in check. Maybe if she was there, she would have been, like, “Nope, Slytherin out. Go home.”

Micah: Yeah, you know what this means, Andrew? This is yet another reason as to why Hogwarts is a security nightmare.

Laura: Yep.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Thank you for introducing that slowly so I had time to load up my sound effect for it.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, I actually wouldn’t say that this is a security nightmare. This is… we’ve been speaking in recent episodes about House unity. This just tears the Houses apart when they’re allowed to head down to the Quidditch pitch and taunt each other. Like, okay, have a rivalry between teams, but they shouldn’t be allowed to come down and bully them.

Micah: No, and like you said earlier, with football, maybe you’re working on different plays. And first of all, you’re trying to integrate a brand new player to your team, and you’re working on strategies. Somebody else’s team should not be able to see that.

Pat: Right.

Micah: That’s wrong. Fire Madam Hooch.

Andrew: Where is Madam Hooch? I mean, she’s got nothing else to do.

Laura: How do you know?

Andrew: I’m reading her Wikipedia right now.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: She’s a flying instructor, Quidditch referee, and coach at Hogwarts. She should… her office should be on the pitch, and she should be supervising everything that happens there.

Micah: Yeah, think about what happens to Katie Bell during this practice. If she was there, maybe she wouldn’t have ended up taking some of Fred and George’s bad product and needing to go to the hospital wing.

Andrew: Right. Not to mention, yeah, they’re still on Hogwarts grounds, but they’re outside the castle, and that does actually sound like a security nightmare when Voldemort is back.

Micah: And there’s these Thestrals flying around that Harry has no idea what they are.

Andrew: Thestrals. Dementors have been on the Quidditch pitch.

Micah: What did you make of the bad product moment by Fred and George? Obviously, they’re trying to help out Katie after she gets nailed by Ron, but that’s just an example, though, of… I don’t know what you can compare it to in modern day, but taking something… I know they’re testing out on themselves mostly, but you take a bad product before it’s been fully vetted, something like this can happen.

Andrew: Right. Something like this was bound to happen with their products, so I wasn’t really surprised. It’s a bummer that it happened to Katie.

Laura: No. I kind of felt… I feel bad for Ron here, though, because he takes so much crap off of Angelina for being nervous and dropping the ball and for throwing the ball too hard so that it hits Katie, but Fred and George are really the ones who exacerbate her nosebleed. And they’re like, “Oh yeah, I think I gave her this Blood Blister packet, whatever, as opposed to the other thing,” and Angelina is just like, “Okay, whatever. Go to the hospital wing.” And she doesn’t give Fred and George any crap. Poor Ron. He’s just the new kid.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: I was thinking about that too. Do you think Fred and George volunteer to take Katie to the hospital to cover their own butts, or to tell Madam Pomfrey the truth?

Laura: I don’t know. I mean, they definitely… they own up to it in front of everybody. They’re like, “Oh, I think we gave her this instead.”

Pat: Right, but Madam Pomfrey is a professor, technically, so she might be like, “Okay, they’re making up these products; I need to put a stop to this.” Or they can cover their own butts and not tell her the truth, so that she can’t try to stop them.

Laura: It’s true.

Andrew: They owe it to Katie to tell the truth so that she can be cured as quickly as possible. And own up to your mistakes; I don’t think they’re below that.

Micah: Do we think that they tried to slip her something else on the way up there so that it maybe counteracts the effects of what’s already happened to her?

Andrew: You would think so. You would think they would be prepared for this type of scenario.

Pat: Right, it wouldn’t surprise me. But if I was Katie, I would be like, “Um, no, I’m not taking something else from you.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Nothing else. Do not touch me. I don’t trust you anymore.”

[Pat laughs]

Andrew: “Bring me to Pomfrey, and by the way, where’s Hooch?”

Micah: Well, isn’t this a sort of a precursor, given what happens to her in Half-Blood Prince?

Andrew: Right, yeah. You think that’s bad, Katie? Just you wait till the next book.

Micah: [laughs] But going off of what Laura was talking about with Ron, when they get back to the common room, it’s clear that practice didn’t go all that well, but Hermione kind of jumps to the conclusion that the reason it didn’t go well was because of Ron, and Ron says exactly that to her. And do we think it’s a bit wrong of Hermione to jump to that conclusion, or do we think this is more like a moment of frustration for her, because she’s probably been sitting there all day doing homework and she’s just looking to let off some steam?

Pat: I think that she has every right to have this conclusion, because Ron came in in a mood anyways. It was kind of obvious that it was his fault just by the way that he was acting, so I think she just read the room and realized that he was really upset. If it wasn’t his fault, he probably wouldn’t have been upset, so I think she assumed correctly.

Laura: I agree.

Micah: Okay, let’s talk a little bit about Percy’s letter that Ron receives, and it’s quite loaded.

Andrew: It’s really awful, yeah.

Micah: We wanted to try and read some of these lines from Percy in a semi Dr. Evil voice, which I think we could probably just make up whatever we consider to be a sinister voice, because like I said, this letter is loaded. And I don’t know how much of it is Percy really feeling this way, or Percy just being in the moment and thinking that he’s hot shit because he works for the Ministry.

Andrew: [laughs] Right, and he’s riding high on this new story that’s about to come out in the Prophet, so he’s got this chip on his shoulder. I think he absolutely feels this way genuinely.

Micah: But what changed him? That’s what I’m trying to figure out, is he went to Hogwarts; he was prefect, Head Boy. I’m sure he respected Dumbledore during his time there, as well as the other professors. Now he transitions to another situation where he’s in a position of power, and he obviously respects the Minister.

Andrew: I just think he’s drinking the Ministry Kool-Aid. He’s in that world; he’s consuming their line of thinking every day. He’s been away from the resistance, i.e. his family.

Micah: Do you think it has anything to do with what happened in Goblet of Fire, though? That he’s trying to prove himself maybe even more, just given how bad the situation was with Barty Crouch, Sr.?

Andrew: Yeah, that too.

Laura: I agree. I also think Percy is an example of somebody who probably shouldn’t be in a position of power, just because whoever it is who’s giving him power, he just tends to, as y’all were just saying, drink the Kool-Aid and just think that they can do no wrong and they must be in the right, so I think that as soon as Percy transitioned out of Hogwarts and he lost that power, and got to the Ministry, he found a new kind of power.

Andrew: Yeah. So some of these quotes, like Micah said, they’re just awful. So he says, [imitating Dr. Evil] “Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That was good.

Laura: Yeah, it was good.

Andrew: Micah, do you want to try one?

Micah: Should I go Dr. Evil, or do I want to go really deep, sinister voice?

Andrew: Do whatever you want. Ooh, I want to hear deep sinister.

Micah: [in a deep, sinister voice] “You do not want to be tarred with the same brush as Potter.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Ooh, I just got shivers. Oh my God.

Andrew: Laura, do your wickedness.

Laura: [in a wicked voice] “I know that he can be unbalanced and, for all I know, violent.”

Andrew: “… and for all I know, violent.” [laughs maniacally]

[Laura and Pat laugh]

Micah: All right, Pat, you’ve got to do one. Pick one.

Pat: [imitating Dr. Evil] “I urge you to speak with Dolores Umbridge, a really delightful woman, who I know will be only too happy to advise you.”

Andrew: [imitating Donald Trump] “Your loyalty, Ron, should not be to him, Dumbledore, but to the school and the Ministry.”

Micah: Oh, Donald. Welcome to the show.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, man. Okay, in talking about his parents: [in a sneering voice] “Petty criminals with whom they are currently rubbing shoulders.”

Andrew: Sickening. [imitating Donald Trump] “I sincerely hope that, in time, they will realize how mistaken they were and I shall, of course, be ready to accept a full apology when that day comes.”

Andrew and Laura: [imitating Donald Trump] “Sad.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That one actually works well in that voice.

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: Let’s talk a little bit about some of these statements. It’s certainly surprising to us as readers to learn that Dumbledore may not be in charge at Hogwarts much longer; that actually gets brought up a number of times in Percy’s letter, and he talks about taking a look at the Daily Prophet tomorrow, so not good news for Alby.

Andrew: Yeah, you almost don’t believe Percy, right? It could just be Percy talking out of his butt that Dumbledore might be on his way out soon.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I think, too, at first, you kind of get the sense reading this letter that Percy has an over-inflated sense of importance, and you’re like, “Okay, how much do you really know?”

Andrew: Right, right. And we find out soon he actually does know plenty.

Pat: Yeah, because it almost comes off as him taunting them, like, [in a sing-song voice] “I know something you don’t know.”

Andrew: Right.

Micah: That gets to the whole point, though, of why Percy sent this letter in the first place. It starts off as a congratulatory note to Ron for making prefect, but do we think that he’s really happy for Ron/concerned about him, or do we feel maybe this is even an attempt by Fudge or Umbridge to sow some discord between Ron and Harry?

Andrew: I don’t think… no, I think Percy just wants to flaunt his inside knowledge, his position at the Ministry.

Pat: Yeah, if there’s any agenda behind it, I think that it’s to get another Weasley on his side so that he does have somebody in the family he can talk to regularly. Because I do think Percy misses being in contact with his family, so if he were able to get Ron onto his side with all the same views and everything, then he might be a little bit more happy and comfortable.

Andrew: And to me, Percy talks like Ron and Harry are merely acquaintances. He’s like, “Oh, that guy you know, Harry? Yeah, you shouldn’t be friends with him anymore.” Surely he knows that they’re actually best friends, and simply walking away from Harry is impossible. Not to mention Ron, of course, does not want to do that, because they are best friends.

Micah: Absolutely.

Laura: It does make me wonder if Percy is aware that his letter could be intercepted and read, because I mean, Harry stayed at the Weasleys’ house multiple summers and Percy knows how close they are, but maybe in the event that his letter is intercepted, he doesn’t want anybody reading it to know that he knows how close Harry and Ron are and that he’s oftentimes slept under the same roof as Harry.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I thought you were going to say he wrote it so that if it was intercepted, everybody could see how hard he was on his brother and how loyal he was to the Ministry.

Laura: I think that too.

Pat: I also… I’ve always kind of wondered if he maybe… the way that he’s speaking about Harry, maybe at one point Percy did have more friends, and when he became prefect, he cut them off because he knew that he was in power, so maybe he thinks Ron did the same thing where, because Harry didn’t get it, Ron has maybe cut him out because he has something to hold over him.

Andrew: Yeah, Percy definitely doesn’t have any friends, right? He’s got his coworker acquaintances, but who would want to be around this guy? I wouldn’t.

Micah: It’s very harsh words, though, saying that “you don’t want to be tarred with the same brush as Potter” and calling him unbalanced and violent. And I think it does hit Harry hard, even though he’s somewhat dismissive of it when Ron shows him the letter, and they kind of joke about it towards the end. But I do think this is a bitter pill to swallow, because this is somebody who’s part of a family that Harry has essentially considered himself a part of since the start of the series. And I don’t know if we’ve ever experienced moments like this, where we think we know somebody but then we learn the truth about how they really feel about us, and maybe we just overhear it, or we read something, and it’s like, “Whoa, where did that come from?” Totally unexpected.

Andrew: Well, I was just going to say, Harry is getting a taste of having his own crazy family members in his life.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Everybody’s got those, and now Percy is his, since he does consider himself a part of the Weasley family.

Micah: Yep. What do we make of Dolores Umbridge being “a really delightful woman”?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Does Percy truly think that?

Andrew: Yes!

Micah: You think so?

Andrew: He’s lost his mind! Like I said, he’s drinking the Ministry Kool-Aid. And of course, Umbridge is a pleasant woman in the eyes of most people at the Ministry at that level. She wants to control Hogwarts; that’s an appealing part of her character. I mean, she is a nice person, other than her evilness. She’s very polite. She’s well-spoken.

Laura: Yeah, if she likes you.

Pat: Yeah. She’s very strategic in her niceness.

Laura: I also love the contrast here in the descriptions of Umbridge in these letters. Harry is being very sarcastic in his, like, “She’s almost as nice as your mum,” and then Percy is like, “a truly delightful woman,” and he’s completely serious.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: All right, let’s just spend a little bit more on Percy’s letter here, but as it relates to his own family, because that, to me, is probably more telling than the bit about Harry. He references the “petty criminals” with whom the Weasleys are “currently rubbing shoulders,” and then just flat out says that he expects an apology sometime in the future for all that they’ve been doing with respect to the Order of the Phoenix. Do we think Percy has a good idea of the fact that his family, particularly his parents, are in the Order? He references these “petty criminals.” Who is he talking about? Is he talking about Mundungus? Is he talking about Podmore, who’s now been sent off to Azkaban?

Andrew: Well, considering his view on Harry, I think he’s talking about that entire group of people. He just holds all these people in low regard, and I don’t know if he realizes he’s exaggerating here, but he is exaggerating by just putting this whole blanket “petty criminal” description over all of them.

Micah: Yeah, he’s definitely painting with a broad brush here, and it’s just sad to see that that’s what’s become of Percy, and this is how he views his family.

Laura: And given how much stress we’ve seen this put on the Weasley family, especially Mrs. Weasley, who you can’t say Percy’s name in front of her without her bursting into tears, could you imagine if she were to read something like this that her son said about her?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: Yeah, it would devastate her.

Andrew: Yeah, this would break her heart.

Micah: Well, the one benefit of all of this, as we mentioned just before, is that Hermione offers to help Harry and Ron out with their homework. And this was just one of the… I wanted to talk a little bit, though, about what do we think is going on inside of Harry’s mind and what’s going on inside of Ron’s? But do we think Ron is really embarrassed by this? What do we think the effect is on him? Let’s remember what he’s just been through as well with the Quidditch practice. I mean, he’s not having the best day either here.

Pat: I think he is embarrassed. I don’t think that if Harry and Hermione were with him… if he got the letter alone, I don’t think he would have showed them.

Micah: That’s interesting.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, they are used to Percy being this way, so it’s not like it would come as a shock to Harry and Hermione that he’s talking like this.

Laura: And he sits there and rips the letter up and throws it in the fire in front of Harry and Hermione.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it’s embarrassing, but look, it’s just like when you have a crazy family member. You just say, “Oh, there goes crazy Aunt Sue again. We’re so used to her talking like this; it’s just more of the same.” Just family.

Micah: That’s fair. Well, speaking of the fireplace, Sirius shows up, and one of the things that Harry forgot to mention to Ron and Hermione is that he had sent a letter out to his godfather on Saturday morning. But I know this has been portrayed a couple of different ways in the films, right?

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Sirius’s face popping up in Goblet of Fire is different from Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Yeah. It’s funny because I think the effect in Goblet of Fire was one of the worst effects in the Harry Potter series. It looks like Sirius is coming up for a breath? His face is the fire, so to speak.

Pat: Yeah, it’s in the embers.

Laura: Yeah, it’s the coals.

Andrew: Right.

Pat: Which I hated. I’m so glad they fixed it.

Andrew: And it was hard to make out. And then in Order of the Phoenix – and maybe we can link to this side by side; there’s a side by side that we found – in Order of the Phoenix he’s in the flames, as opposed to in the embers, and it looks better. It’s definitely easier to make his face out, but I think… I still remember the first time seeing that in Goblet of Fire. It was like, you can barely make out his face. So that was definitely a good change. But like I said, one of the worst special effects in the Harry Potter film series, in my opinion.

Laura: Oh, and I don’t know if you remember this, but we made so much fun of that effect on this show back in the day.

Andrew: Ohh. No.

Laura: We were like, “What intern made this?”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Did they run out of money for this effect so this is all they could come up with?”

Pat: Yeah. I remember being so angry when I saw that the first time. I was like, “What is this?”

Andrew: Really? Oh, yeah.

Pat: “This is terrible.”

Andrew: See, this is why they’ve got to redo the Harry Potter movies. Turn it into a TV show. Do the fire effect right.

Pat: Because how I think it should be done… do you remember at the end of the fifth movie when Bellatrix is sucked into the fire? That’s how I picture it should be. It should be their bodies surrounded by flames, not like an illusion in the flame.

Andrew: It was also just so surprising because the special effects in the Harry Potter films from start to finish were really good, even in the first couple movies before they knew what this would become, when the budgets may have been smaller. And of course, it was a different time; it was early 2000s. Those special effects were good. And then you get to Goblet of Fire and you see this fire effect, Sirius sticking his head through the embers. It’s like, “No. No-no.”

Micah: Yeah. Well, it was the same kind of thing with… I don’t know why it reminds me of Michael Gambon when Harry’s name pops out of the Goblet of Fire.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: It’s almost like he needs sunglasses because of the effect. It’s like they could have done that a whole lot better, too. Well, speaking of the movies, we do talk about all the different things that Harry put in his letter, the first of which is Umbridge, and Sirius has a very iconic line that actually he ends up saying to Harry at King’s Cross, but it’s in the books delivered in this moment, and that’s “The world isn’t split into good people and Death Eaters.” And so this is Sirius’s interpretation of Umbridge, but I think it’s a mischaracterization because I think Umbridge would be somebody who would easily put on a Death Eater cloak and serve Voldemort.

Laura: Really? I’ve kind of always viewed her to be a bit like Sirius’s parents. He talks about them earlier on in the book and says, “Oh, no, no, no, they would have never been Death Eaters themselves, but they certainly thought the Death Eaters had the right idea.” So they were supportive of that ideology, but would not have actually put themselves in the fray.

Andrew and Pat: Yeah.

Pat: I think the same.

Micah: Really?

Laura: This is also why I said Umbridge was lawful evil in last week’s episode, because she’s just got… she so cleaves to the rules and how she can use them to benefit her own agenda.

Micah: Yeah, I guess that’s right. I mean, she clearly shares certain ideologies with the Death Eaters and with Voldemort, but she chairs the Muggle-born Registration Commission and she oversees those trials, and I believe that results in some of those people’s deaths. So I mean, I guess she’s, to your point, just a different kind of evil.

Pat: I think, too, she doesn’t see herself as needing to hide behind a mask where most of the Death Eaters do.

[Andrew laughs]

Pat: She’s willing to just be out there in the open, being herself, and really, much like throwing her point of view out there, where the Death Eaters are still hiding behind a leader and then also hiding behind a mask.

Andrew: Which is a worse way to describe Umbridge. She doesn’t even want to hide the fact that she’s a Death Eater; she just is without the mask.

Pat: Right.

Micah: Yeah, and she’s a pure-blood maniac, despite having Muggle parentage, at least on one side. So in a way, she is very much like Tom Riddle, very much like Voldemort. We learn that she drafted some anti-werewolf legislation not long after Lupin’s tenure at Hogwarts, making it very difficult for him to find additional work, and she recently campaigned to have merpeople rounded up, so I’m sure that would go over extremely well with the ones that live in the Black Lake.

Andrew: Yeah, and I mean, that one cracks me up because it’s like, they’re always in the lake, no? It’s not like they’re walking around on the streets, so why do they bother you so much? You never even see them.

Laura: I mean, it is definitely reminiscent of… there are certain ideologies here in the real world in which people want to have some kind of tracking on certain groups of people because they’re afraid of them, ultimately, with no good reason. Because pretty sure Umbridge never would go into a body of water, so I don’t know what she’s afraid is going to happen to her.

Micah: And there’s a really great article – I think we mentioned this when Andy was on the show – on WizardingWorld.com about Umbridge and her family history, and it really gives you a much clearer insight into who she is as a person and why she’s so power hungry, and the pure-blood mania. She’s really a truly evil person at heart. Couple other points of conversation between the trio and Sirius: Hermione advises Sirius on Kreacher, and that actually prompts a very quick subject change. So I think again, it’s just J.K. Rowling’s writing letting the reader know that it’s really important that Sirius and Kreacher try and find some common ground. We learn that the Ministry believes that Dumbledore is actually working to form an army at Hogwarts, and we know that that has payoff later on, so… and then, despite everything that’s going on, despite the article that we referenced in the Daily Prophet, Sirius thinks it might be a good idea for them to all meet up in Hogsmeade.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: This is just so, so completely reckless, and it just shows that Sirius is surely feeling the effects of being cooped up in Grimmauld Place, but he’s just not thinking straight.

Andrew: No, and he likes to gamble, like you said earlier. He wants to be reckless, and he’s looking for a hit of dopamine, and for him, that’s going out there and potentially getting himself in trouble.

Micah: And he compares him to James, to his father, but he says that the thrill would have been half the fun of it, or… I’m paraphrasing, obviously, but he needs to remember that he’s an adult now, right? And that he’s not talking to James; he’s talking to James’s son. And the risk now on something like this is far greater than something that the two of them, or the Marauders, would have been doing during their time at Hogwarts. We’re talking about Voldemort being back and him potentially putting himself in a situation where he could get killed.

Andrew: Yeah. J.K. Rowling doesn’t let Harry think on this line much, but I thought that this would hurt Harry, this line, “You’re less like your father than I thought,” because Harry prides himself in hearing about his father and how he is similar to his father, and then to hear from his father’s best friend that he’s actually not as similar to James as he once thought… I would be sad about that.

Laura: That’s hurtful, but I also think that this is a little bit of foreshadowing, because we learn later on in the book that Harry’s father was actually kind of a bully, and that Harry’s nature is actually a lot more like Lily’s, like his mother.

Pat: I think that’s also why she throws in at the end of the book when Sirius calls Harry “James” when they’re fighting at the Ministry. I think that’s why she throws that line in there too, just because we had this moment now so Harry can be like, “Oh, maybe I am a little hurt by this,” but then gets a little bit redeemed before she kills Sirius.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. That’s only in the movie, though, right?

Pat: I thought it happened in the book too.

Andrew: I thought we heard from people that that only happened in the movie. I’m pretty sure that’s a movie-ism.

Pat: Maybe.

Micah: But regardless, I mean, it’s still there, whether it’s the book or the movie.

Andrew: Well, yes. Not J.K. Rowling-approved, but that’s okay.

Micah: [laughs] Well, I assume she signed off on the film.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: But I just think it’s tough for Harry to be put in this situation because he goes from the Percy letter, to Sirius, when that’s supposed to be sort of a uplifting moment for him, and the way that it ends, it’s got to leave him feeling like crap. It’s, like I said, bitter Sirius. He’s acting like a child, almost, in this moment where he basically slams the… think about with your parents; you slam the door on them when you don’t want to talk to them anymore. Or however you go about… you hang up the phone on somebody, is basically what Sirius is doing here.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, those are our thoughts on Chapter 14. The Umbridge Suck count will remain unchanged at 21, correct?

Micah: Really? You want to keep it at 21? We don’t want to give her one for the Percy reference?

Andrew: Okay. Yeah, I mean, she doesn’t appear in the chapter.

Pat: I think at least for the werewolf stuff.

Laura: Well, what about trying to tag the merpeople?

Andrew: My apologies. We need to punish her, so she’s going to get an extra two points today.

[Laura and Pat laugh]

Andrew: One for the anti-werewolf legislation…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Okay, and then one more for wanting to round up the merpeople.

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Great.

Micah: And you’re going to work on changing that sound, right?

Andrew: Yeah, Micah gave me some work to do, and I’ll get to it, Micah. Don’t worry.

Micah: Okay.


Connecting the Threads


Andrew: Laura, what threads did you discover?

Laura: So there is this interesting correlation between Harry and Sirius in both Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix of both of them being prisoners, right? So in Prisoner of Azkaban, it’s because Sirius has literally escaped from Azkaban after being there for 12 years, but he can’t really be out in the open; and Harry, because he thinks that Sirius is trying to hunt him down, also can’t be out in the open. Because of this, Harry is not able to do things like go to Hogsmeade. He can’t have a normal childhood because of this. But he sneaks into Hogsmeade under the Invisibility Cloak in Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban, which slips and exposes him to Malfoy. Then in Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, Harry has to dissuade Sirius from sneaking into Hogsmeade as Snuffles, because he knows that Malfoy can recognize his Animagus form and would probably report back to his father, which would then make its way back to the Ministry, undoubtedly. So there’s this definite theme of Harry and Sirius being – whether physically or socially – imprisoned, that is an arc that both of their characters absolutely have in common throughout both of these books. Then, in terms of the hunt for Sirius, it’s really interesting. Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban takes place immediately after the scene in which Ron wakes up in Chapter 13 to Sirius standing over his bed with a knife; in Chapter 14, Sirius evades capture and continues to be among the missing. But in Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, Sirius is correctly pinpointed as being in London, so we have this nice contrast of Sirius being missing and then Sirius being located and reported in the Daily Prophet. And then we have this overall theme that happens a lot in Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix of Ministry interference at Hogwarts, and these chapters have a couple of, I think, pretty direct correlations. So we learn in Chapter 14 of Prisoner of Azkaban that Buckbeak has been sentenced to death for attacking Draco Malfoy, and then in Chapter 14 of Order of the Phoenix, Sirius is the one who reveals to Harry, Ron, and Hermione that Fudge is deliberately stunting their educational development because he’s afraid of the students rising up against the Ministry, so it’s definitely representative of an escalation in terms of how much the Ministry is interfering. But I thought it was pretty interesting that these events both happened in Chapter 14.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Laura: Some pretty good planning on the part of J.K. Rowling.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, it’s time for our MVPs of the Week. I’m going to give it to Percy, believe it or not, just for reminding us that family isn’t perfect.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Yeah, most valuable prick of the week as well.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Wow, two awards in one week for him. Good job, Percy.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] I had a really hard time picking an MVP of the Week because I feel like everyone in this chapter is kind of garbage; nobody really stands out as having a great moment, and I feel like we see the worst of everyone here, so I think I’m going to have to give it to Sirius, just because he’s the only person who actually provides Harry with pertinent information about what’s going on. But he’s still a child.

Andrew: Well, there was one very good person in this chapter, right, Micah?

Micah: Yeah, I thought so. I would give it to Cho Chang. I thought she really came through for Harry when they were in the owlery, lifted his spirits up. Made him get that little nervous “I got a crush on you” feeling where his insides burned and he felt like he was floating on air. And to your point, Andrew, she came to his defense twice, and…

Andrew: That’s love.

Micah: That’s love, yeah. So Cho gets the MVP award.

Andrew: We all want a Cho in our lives.

Pat: I’m going to give it to the Blood Blisterpod, because without it, Harry and Ron would have been doing homework way later into the night.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: That’s fair.

Andrew: Is that the first time we’ve given the MVP of the Week to an inanimate object?

Pat: No, I gave it to the table one time.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, that’s your thing when you’re on the show; you just don’t give it to people. Got it.

Micah: Could have given it to Hermes, also, for carrying that trash from Percy all the way to Hogwarts.

[Andrew laughs]


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Let’s rename the chapter now. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Percy and the Big One.” That has, like, a triple meaning to it.

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: Please explain.

Andrew: Well, I mean, Percy’s letter, and Hagrid.

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Weasley Shade,” because there’s normally a lot of shade directed towards the Weasley family, but in this chapter, there’s a lot of internal Weasley family shade being thrown around.

Andrew: The Weasleys strike back.

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Weekend at Hogwarts.”

Andrew: You love the fact that it was set over the weekend.

[Pat laughs]

Micah: Yeah, it’s kind of like Weekend at Bernie’s.

Andrew: Right, I got it.

Micah: I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that movie. It’s not really like Weekend at Bernie’s at all…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: … but I kind of drew inspiration from that, at least from the title.

Andrew: Okay.

Pat: And I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 14, “Frustration and Procrastination.”

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s episode, email us; MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also send us a voice memo that way. We need to get back to voice memos and voicemails. We apologize. Next week, we will discuss Chapter 15, so if you have any feedback about that chapter, please let us know, and we may air it on the podcast.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch. As Micah said earlier in the episode, last week’s question was: What does Cho refer to Ron as? The answer is “Tornado hater.” Congratulations to Anne, Reese Withoutherspoon, Tara, Stacy, Marie, and Samwise for correctly answering that question. This week’s question: McGonagall has been teaching at Hogwarts for how many years? Umbridge asks this question of McGonagall in the next chapter. This little line kind of came back to haunt J.K. Rowling after she put McGonagall in the Crimes of Grindelwald

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … because McGonagall’s answer doesn’t really line up with what we see in Fantastic Beasts.

Laura: Yeah, neither does her birthday, but…

Andrew: Right, right.

Micah: Small details.

Andrew: [laughs] So we can touch on that a little bit next week. To play, just tweet us. Our username is @MuggleCast. Also, use the hashtag “Quizzitch,” so we can easily find these answers. And by the way, if you want to follow us on social media, like I said, on Twitter, we are username @MuggleCast. We are also MuggleCast on Facebook and Instagram, so just search for us, and we would love if you liked us. Also, please join our community of listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. By doing so, you’ll be supporting this podcast; we’re only weekly because of you. Our Patreon actually just turned four the other day. It’s crazy to think that the Patreon itself has been around for four years now; that time has flown by, and we have some really exciting benefits coming up in the year ahead. I think you will want to be a part of our Patreon once you hear about our physical gift, and the sooner you pledge, the sooner you will get this year’s physical gift. So hit up Patreon.com/MuggleCast; pledge at the $2, $5, or $10 levels today. To get that physical gift, you will have to be pledged at $5 or higher. You’ll get access to our recording studio, so you’ll be able to listen live as we record on typically Saturday or Sunday mornings. You also get access to bonus MuggleCast; you’ll be a part of our focus group, our exclusive Facebook group, so many benefits, and you can access everything that we’ve posted over the past four years, so if you pledge today, you will have tons of content to go through. That does it for this week’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Pat: And I’m Pat.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #449

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #449, Torturous Toad (OOTP 13, Detention With Dolores)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. This is Episode 449. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: We are without Micah this week, but we are joined by another M, and this is a listener, a Slug Club member over on Patreon, Megan. Hi, Megan. Welcome to the show.

Megan: Hello.

Andrew: It’s good to have you on. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Megan: My name is Megan. My favorite book is Order of the Phoenix, actually, so I’m really excited to be on.

Andrew: Perfect.

Megan: Favorite movie is Chamber of Secrets. My Hogwarts House is Hufflepuff; Ilvermorny is Thunderbird. My Patronus is an eagle, which I think makes me a true Huffleclaw.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Megan: And my favorite teacher at Hogwarts… this took me a while to decide, but I’m going to go with Lupin.

Andrew: Okay, yeah. Well, welcome to the show. It’s great to have you on, and thank you for your support on Patreon; we really appreciate it. And on today’s episode, we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter unlucky 13, “Detention with Dolores,” and this chapter is definitely very unlucky. But first, a news item. A lot of people got excited about this; I was unsure how people were going to take this news. [laughs] The first official Harry Potter flagship store is going to be opening in New York later this summer. They are promising a brand new and unique experience dedicated to Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts; it will house the largest collection of Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts products in the world under one roof. Fans will be able to grab Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans, personalized robes – whatever that means – along with rare collectible items, hand-signed artwork, and exclusive ranges. They also are going to have House wands, whatever that means.

Laura: Yeah, I’m very curious about that.

Andrew: Are they going to be red, green, blue, yellow?

Laura: Maybe they light up in the House colors.

Eric: Ohh, like how Harry’s wand shoots red sparks in the books?

Andrew: That would be neat. This is one of those ideas I’m surprised hasn’t come into existence sooner, because we all love our House robes, our scarves, our House edition books – which we’ve spoken about in recent years – but never the wand. The wand has never been personalized by House, and one could argue that the wand is the most personal item in the wizarding world for a witch or wizard, so to combine the personalization of the House with the wand, that sounds pretty special. I think I would buy one of those.

Eric: I think maybe they’ve reached the peak of selling those individual character wands, though, is what it is. It’s like, for 15 years – give or take 5 – they’ve been selling Bellatrix’s wand, Voldemort’s wand, Harry’s wand, Hermione’s wand, and so they’ve gotten a majority of the sales they’re going to get out of those. I think they’ll probably still sell them at this flagship store, but the House wand is a genuinely new idea, like you’re saying. Like, “Oh, we never thought of this.” Could be a cool idea.

Andrew: Yeah, right. So what do you guys think about this overall flagship Harry Potter store? [laughs] I don’t think we ever would have predicted this would be coming.

Eric: I’m not sure that this is something that the fans couldn’t do better, I guess? I mean, in certain ways, yes, official licensed merchandise, great. But I wouldn’t have expected a hub of this commercialism. I guess it was both inevitable, and it’s a shame for me to see it, because I was just at the Primark store in Boston a couple months ago, right after LeakyCon, and they’ve got an entire half floor of licensed Harry Potter merchandise that is otherwise, you can’t find it anywhere else, and that is appealing for people who want to do gift givings. I did most of my Christmas gifts from there, and all that stuff. So it makes sense, but I also liked sort of the thrill of there’s certain things you find at Primark; there’s certain things you find at Universal, at the theme park. I don’t know. I’m torn, because at the same time, we have a lot of… I had just decided to support fan artists and fan creators on Etsy and things.

Andrew: Right, you’re out of luck.

Eric: Well, we can still do that.

Andrew: You’re not going to be able to visit. Yeah, but you committed, so you can’t… I mean, you can walk in here, but you can’t buy anything. I’m sorry.

Eric: You know what? I will accept that. I will absolutely accept that. This has came at the worst time because I had just agreed to not buy anything offi… and I won’t.

Andrew: And they’re taunting you. [laughs]

Eric: I’m going to… yeah, I think that’s it.

Andrew: Laura, Megan, what do you think? Is this something that sounds appealing, or does this sound like just a cash grab?

Laura: I think it just depends on how it’s done. If it’s done well, I think it could be a great experience. I mean, I see here in the notes that there’s a walk-up window, and they’ve got signage outside for coffee and ice cream and butterbeer. So while I might not necessarily be tempted to go on a shopping spree here, it could be a cool experience to just walk in and look around.

Andrew: Yeah. I love coffee…

Laura: Me too.

Andrew: [laughs] … and I was very intrigued by them selling coffee. If they’re going to do some sort of Harry Potter coffee and they’re going to call it as such, I would be extremely into that. And please sell grounds that I can take home and brew at home. And yeah, you also mentioned the butterbeer and the ice cream. I feel like they are going to be selling the same butterbeer that is available in the theme parks; the Studio Tour does this. I think this is kind of just an extension of what we see in the Studio Tour in London. I’m sure the interior is going to be beautiful like the theme park stores, the design and care that they put into the theme park, so I’ll be very eager to check this out. I do also see a mention of Wizarding Passport right in the storefront, which is pretty interesting, too, so I’m sure this is going to be a big way to promote Wizarding World Gold as well. Maybe they’ll have a special lounge for Wizarding World Gold members. Micah and I can go hang out.

Eric: Oooh. Okay, a lounge seems fun.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Maybe they’ll actually have pins when Micah walks in and tries to get one.

Andrew: Yes, I bet this will become a location where you can get those pins.

Eric: But then the other thing is that we’ve been talking recently about a potential permanent home for the Exhibition once it stops touring, and it’s been over, I think, 11 years now for the Harry Potter Exhibition, so could it possibly just end up, I don’t know, adjacent to this building? On the other side of this building, wherever this building is going to be?

Andrew: I don’t know much about this building, but I’m looking at the concept art, and it’s four stories. They say the shop is three stories, so is the fourth floor for storage? Or to Eric’s point, could that be saved for future expansion, say, an exhibition or more merchandise?

Eric: It’s your Wizarding World Passport lounge, Andrew. It’s an entire floor.

Andrew: Ah, yes, where we can play Harry Potter video games; we can listen to Harry Potter podcasts; we can complain about where buttons are. I don’t know.

Eric: [laughs] I’m glad you mentioned podcasts. Well, I’m glad you mentioned podcasts because do you think there’ll be a dedicated event space?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: For whatever they want to do? You know how the fourth floor of Barnes & Noble Union Square…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: … has that just whole area for crowds? The little mini raised stage and seating area for reading books, and when there’s not an event going on, it’s independent reading time? But I’m wondering if the official store will throw fans a bone there or… but not even fans a bone; just give an opportunity for itself to be an event space.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point. I mean, this store could turn into a central hub for all things Harry Potter. Hosting events, as you say. Maybe hosting some charity events. All kinds of things. Final point on this: This is coming into existence because, like I said a few weeks ago, people are still really passionate about Harry Potter, and they’re still very eager to buy merchandise. And you mentioned that shop, Eric, that has a special Harry Potter section; Barnes & Noble has them too. BoxLunch, Hot Topic… everywhere you go, Harry Potter merchandise is available, and it seems to be selling really well, and they’ve got all kinds of partnerships with Pottery Barn and… you name it, they’ve got a partnership. So I feel like they recognize that Harry Potter merchandise sales are still strong, so strong that they could create a flagship store in New York, and it’ll be really successful because they know people still really want to buy the merchandise. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you see one of these in Chicago’s Magnificent Mile, in San Francisco because Cursed Child is also there… anywhere Harry Potter fans are going, one of these could be opening up one day. More to come. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, just a reminder: We are running on a bit of a new schedule now. MuggleCast has been moved to Tuesday releases so we have more time to put our rubber ducks in a row and get the episode out to you reliably first thing Tuesday morning, so before you head out to work on Tuesday morning, check for MuggleCast; it will be there. That is our goal going forward. Also excited to announce a new Patreon benefit. We plan to announce a few later in the year, but one we can announce now: New patrons who sign up at Patreon.com/MuggleCast will get a personalized video message from one of the four cohosts. This is really exciting; we’re using a new tool that lets us easily see who our latest patrons are and then send you a personalized video message. We’re going to have a lot of fun with these, so pledge at any level to receive one of these video messages over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Eric, I would like you to do cosplay for some of your thank you videos. Can you do that?

Eric: [laughs] Well, maybe we’ll have a little option. People should choose whether I’m a Gryffindor or a Hufflepuff or Elvis Dumbledore for their video, and give that option.

Andrew: [laughs] And Laura, what can we have you do that would be fun?

Laura: Oh, gosh. I was thinking of making it almost like a Hogwarts acceptance letter, but a Patreon acceptance video.

Eric: Oooh.

Andrew: Ooh, that’s a good idea.

Laura: Like, “Dear Mr… I don’t know, Sims. We’re pleased to inform you that you’ve been accepted at the School of Patreon and MuggleCast.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Podcasting wizardry.

Laura: Yeah, there we go.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s great. These are going to be fun because we actually take the time to make a message for each person, so I think it’ll be exciting for people to check these out, so we’ll have fun with that. Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get that and a lot more, including the chance to cohost MuggleCast one day, like Megan is today. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, we have a returning sponsor this week who’s here just in time for the new year.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. Like I said, we’re discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Detention with Dolores,” and let’s start with our seven-word summary. Megan, you get to start. No pressure.

Megan: Okay. New…

Laura: Ooh… detention…

Eric: … arrives…

Andrew: New detention arrives… for…

Megan: … Harry…

Laura: … via…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … torture.

Laura: There we go.

Andrew: Wow, how pleasant.

Eric: That’s what it is, right? We can all kind of agree.

Laura: Oh, yeah. 100%.

Andrew: It is absolutely torture, for sure.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: And before we dive into the play by play analysis here, I just wanted to ask about Chapter 13 in general. Do you guys think – because this is a horrific chapter because of what Umbridge does to Harry – do we think Rowling purposely planned for such a permanent addition to Harry’s hands to occur in Chapter 13? Do you think she was like, “I need to do something really bad”? Well, “I’m going to do something really bad to Harry; let me do it specifically in Chapter 13.”

Laura: Yeah, I think so, because we have some wonderful notes here, actually, that indicate that the 13th chapter of each book contains some kind of major event for Harry that tends to be a bit unlucky. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, so I went through each Chapter 13. As I was doing this, though, I was thinking like, “Something bad happens to Harry in literally every chapter ever,” so maybe…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, that’s true.

Andrew: In Sorcerer’s Stone, Harry is worried about Snape refereeing the Quidditch match. Chamber of Secrets – this is a big one – Tom Riddle’s diary is discovered. That’s pretty unlucky. Prisoner of Azkaban: Gryffindors win a Quidditch match, so that one, not unlucky.

Laura: Well, in that chapter, though, that is when Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle all dress up as Dementors and come onto the Quidditch pitch to try and throw Harry’s game, because he’s already had trouble with that.

Andrew: Okay. But he soldiers through and still wins it, so that’s good. Goblet of Fire: This was a big one. Trelawney makes predictions. She, as usual, says that death comes ever closer, and then she claims Harry was born midwinter, and that’s not true. And while he wasn’t, Voldemort was, and Harry is a Horcrux, so maybe she was sensing the Horcrux within Harry. That’s something that you only realize after getting through the rest of the series. In Half-Blood Prince, we dive into the memory in which Dumbledore invites Tom Riddle to Hogwarts. You could argue that was unlucky.

Laura: Well, yeah, we saw Tom Riddle’s whole tragic childhood. And this is such a cool, I think, connecting the threads between Half-Blood Prince and Chamber of Secrets, because when Harry goes into Tom Riddle’s diary, one of his observations is how similar the two of them are; he really identifies with Tom Riddle. And then we get to see Tom Riddle’s background, and they both have this equally tragic childhood.

Eric: Yeah, and the diary was purchased in a Muggle shop in London, I think, which is a little clue of Tom Riddle’s origins.

Andrew: And then finally, in Deathly Hallows, the trio enter the Ministry, and Harry hexes Umbridge, so that’s a good one to bring up in light of what happens in this chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Some sweet revenge.

Eric: Yeah. But otherwise, the chapter picks up right where the last one left off. It’s right after Harry and McGonagall and the biscuits, which is a really nice scene, but Harry is encountering a lot of whispers, not even behind his back anymore. When he goes into the Great Hall, people are openly gawking, staring, speaking, and Harry really takes umbrage at that, and it’s Hermione who has to say, “Harry, you don’t know what it’s like. The Ministry has been smearing you, the Daily Prophet has been smearing you, and this is what that looks like.” I do want to ask the question, as always, what could Dumbledore have done to prevent this backlash?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: A question that could be asked in any chapter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: What could Dumbledore have done, and why didn’t he do it? Yeah, I think he should have made another statement to the school, because he’s seeing these kids have these inaccurate views of Harry, and it’s not healthy for Harry; it’s not healthy for the school; it’s not healthy for these students to be misled.

Eric: It’s just this chapter in particular, especially because of what happens with Umbridge and Harry, I always… I’m just like, man, it’s a real shame that Dumbledore has employed a policy of no talky-talky to Harry, because they should be hand in hand on some of these issues.

Andrew: Yeah, and what’s something we learn when we grow up? We should be open about our feelings. We should be open about things. Let it out there. There’s this wall between them, and it’s not good for either of them. Well, mainly for Harry. But I also did want to ask, do we blame the students for not believing Harry and Dumbledore? Because if we put ourselves in their shoes, they didn’t see Voldemort. They’re reading these reports in the Daily Prophet.

Laura: Yeah, and also, much like Seamus, they’re parroting their parents. They’re parroting what they’ve heard at home all summer, and that’s just what kids do. I mean, we see this in the real world all the time. I mean, I think we’ve all encountered somebody who says something that’s a little bit out of left field, and you’re like, “Oh, you heard that at home, didn’t you?” And it’s not the child’s fault. Hopefully as they’re progressing throughout their education and getting closer to coming of age, they begin thinking for themselves, which we see that transition later. But no, it’s not their fault.

Megan: If it was me, I don’t know if I would straight up believe Harry. I wouldn’t want to put blind trust in him, just because he just came back with Cedric’s dead body. I would ask questions like, “How did he die?” instead of just, I don’t know, believing the Ministry, like, “Oh, nothing happened.” So I would at least question it, even if I didn’t outright believe Harry without anything.

Eric: I wonder if the outburst from Harry really prompted Umbridge to, I don’t know, prepare an actual line about what happened to Cedric Diggory. We were talking about this last episode, but also for the rest of her classes, because she’s the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for every level at Hogwarts, so she could very easily reach all the students within the next week or so to really, I don’t know, ease some tensions? It’s a good opportunity for Dumbledore to say something again because this is an area where Umbridge has just failed to provide answers. Maybe Dumbledore really could say something, and he wouldn’t need to talk to Harry to do it. He could just get up on the podium, make an announcement, and have that be that. “There will be no further questions at this time. It really happened. That’s my stance.”

Andrew: Yeah. I will play devil’s advocate against myself and the rest of you now, though, because now that Umbridge is in the school, I don’t think he can do this. Umbridge would stop it somehow. She would step up right after he was talking – she would “Heh-hem” her way into the speech – and say, “Everything that Dumbledore is saying is not true.” She would do something to disrupt the message that Dumbledore was trying to spread.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And to that point, I also think that Dumbledore is not unaware of all of the happenings over the summer. I mean, the Daily Prophet has been smearing him. He was booted out of the Wizengamot, so he understands what it looks like. And I think from an optics standpoint, it could just end up coming across to people who were already predisposed to think he’s crazy to think, “Oh, here goes grandpa again.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Kooky grandpa spreading his nonsense.

Eric: Yeah. I think Dumbledore does have to be careful, to your point, about his disobedience. He has to really toe the line in his own way, because it’s a very precarious position that we find him in. We know that the Ministry removes him later this year, so he can definitely sense the wind going. But speaking of disobedience, it was just this morning that Hermione, with Ron cowering in a chair somewhere, had to go up to Fred and George and tell them off about their experiments on children, but when Harry and Hermione go up to the Gryffindor common room, what should they see except Fred and George with a bunch of young kids, first years or so, coming in, and they’re passing out Fainting Fancies. This is way over the top, as far as I’m concerned. This is a moment where Fred and George, who I normally love, completely lost me, because we know they like to break the rules, but this is a direct affront – at this point, it’s personal – between them and Hermione. Hermione is trying to protect the children of Gryffindor. She’s trying to protect, really, pretty much everybody besides Fred and George from getting into trouble, and they’ve just so blatantly disregarded her.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s because they know they can get away with it. They know they can push their luck, at least. They know Ron is not going to approach them; they’re hoping that Hermione doesn’t try to approach them, and they just aren’t scared of Ron and Hermione, so they just go for it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: So Hermione… they really activated her trap card here. “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll write your mother.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, and that was brilliant. I think, Eric, you had a point about this, though, that it’s not below the belt? I think it is below the belt. They are scared of their mother. They know a Howler could be sent, and they don’t want to face that, or another summer… I guess they could live on their own at this point, but they don’t want to face their mother’s wrath. And maybe they’re also considering the fact that their mother is pretty fragile right now.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: If you think back to what happened at 12 Grimmauld Place… they don’t want to upset her. They don’t want to stress her out more than she already is because of course, deep down, they care about their mother and they don’t want to hurt her, so to think that their mother might be hurt by this mischief that they’re up to, that hurts.

Eric: So what makes it below the belt? I think it’s perfectly fair. I think it puts what they’re doing in perspective.

Laura: Agree.

Eric: I mean, well, and Hermione only totes it out as a matter of last resort because she’s asked Ron to join her multiple times. “Ron, you coming? Ron, you…?” He says, “I think you got this,” whatever, whatever. He shrinks away. And she even asked them, and then they say that it’s okay because they’re paying the students who are volunteering, and I’m thinking two things. One, I’m thinking, does that make it okay? Because Harry, who’s watching the whole thing from across the room, instinctively feels like they didn’t properly tell the kids what they’d be getting into. They seem to be confused when they wake up from their fainting, and so Harry is like, “Yeah, they definitely didn’t tell people.” And then second, whose money are they using to pay these kids, by the way, for their being test subjects? Is it part of the thousand Galleons? Because I think that Harry probably wouldn’t enjoy seeing his money used in that way.

Andrew: No, probably not. [laughs]

Eric: So it’s just very problematic, and so I feel like Hermione needed to put a stop to it. She was getting zero support from Ron, and slightly more support – but not much – from Harry, and I think that bringing in their mother was the only thing she could do reasonably to get it to stop.

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: Short of taking a hundred points from Gryffindor House, which affects everybody.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean, Fred and George do mention that they’ve already tested all the products on themselves just to make sure that they’re not poisonous or detrimental in any way, but what if one of these kids had some kind of allergy?

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: Exactly. Testing them on themselves does not mean that these things are safe, because as you say, Laura, other bodies can have different reactions to these treats.

Eric: And just the previous chapter, they said there’s no cure for the Nosebleed Nougat.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Just bleed out.

Eric: Yeah, they just bleed out. You shrivel up, he says.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So I honestly think that maybe they haven’t been testing all of them on yourselves. But the point about the allergy is the good one, so I’m glad, at least for now, it seems like Fred and George are having their, I don’t know, regular cavalier processes put into check. But if Hermione didn’t do it, nobody would be doing it.

Andrew: No.

Eric: And we mentioned this last… Micah, I think, mentioned this last week as well, but where are the Head Boy? Where are the Head Girl? Who are they? Presuming they’re here to put a stop to it. But really, Fred and George are running rampant. It’s kind of… for me, seeing them usually brings a smile to my face, and this time, it was the opposite. I was like, “These guys actually kind of suck right now, because this is the last thing any of us need.”

Andrew: That’s why Micah isn’t here this week, by the way; he went to go look for the Head Boy and Girl.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And he’s also going to try… he’s going to sample some biscuits over in England while he’s over there. He’s really curious.

Eric: It’s funny, though, because I also turn on a dime when it comes to thinking about Hermione in this chapter, because very next, she comes back to where Ron and Harry are sitting and starts pulling out these hats that she’s been knitting for the house-elves. [laughs] And this is a point where I can’t get with Hermione on this. She is deliberately hiding these hats underneath rubbish that we know the house-elves are the ones who clean up, tidy up around here. She is attempting to free Hogwarts elf labor without doing it through the proper channels. This is a guerrilla campaign to free them.

Andrew: Right, right, and that’s the problem. That seems below Hermione to try and free them in this way. Why not go to Dumbledore or McGonagall and put on a presentation on why these house-elves should be freed and how Hogwarts can still run without the house-elves? Her mission is good; I don’t think anybody wants to fault her for freeing the house-elves. However, the way she’s going about it is all wrong. And then it also seems below Hermione to assume that this plan is actually working, because it’s noted multiple times that these hats are disappearing very frequently, and she can barely keep up with the demand for these hats, but of course, as we learn later, it’s been Dobby who’s taking them all because the house-elves are insulted by somebody trying to free them.

Eric: [laughs] She actually is doing more work for Dobby because he’s the only one who’ll go near the Gryffindor common room.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Eric: But actually, even though that’s a funny development, and we learn it later, it brings up the question: Would this actually work? If the house-elves were to pick up clothes… we assume they do the laundry, right? I mean, we assume they do Hogwarts students’ robes all the time, so they pick up clothes. These are clothes. I guess the magical… or I don’t know if it’s magical or not, but the intention behind these clothes is to free them, so that would change. But I would tend to think Dumbledore would be the only person who could give a sock to an elf and have it mean anything.

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: And also, he would have to personally deliver it. I mean, Chamber of Secrets is a perfect example. Harry tricks Lucius Malfoy into freeing Dobby by placing… what was it, a sock? In the diary, and then he sort of thrusts it at Dobby. So he is literally giving Dobby clothes at that point, but leaving clothes around for an elf to pick up is not the same thing, and I’m actually kind of surprised that Hermione thought this would work.

Megan: I was going to say, because they have the elves later insulted by it, where Hermione would just put out clothes and put garbage on top, and then she thinks… I don’t know, kind of playing off their… I don’t know, stupidity? If she thinks trying to trick them into picking it up, but they see it right away and they’re too smart for that, so they’re kind of insulted by it.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: That’s a really good point because she doesn’t… even though her heart, we agree, is in the right place, she’s not respecting their intelligence enough to really come up with a better solution.

Laura: How about the fact that literally every service that’s provided to you at the school is from slave labor? So maybe you boycott eating in the Great Hall.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Maybe you do your own damn laundry.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I don’t see Hermione refusing to take advantage of the slave labor. She’s just complaining about it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I can see Hermione going on a hunger strike and also leading teams of people down to the lake and showing them, educating them, how to hand wash your laundry.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: She comes from a Muggle family; I’m sure that at one point she’s cleaned clothing in a sink or something, so she could really be much more effective than she is. I think this is a moment of very economical character development from the point of J.K. Rowling to have her do this, but it raises, I think, a lot of questions, and chief among them being, don’t the house-elves serve at the pleasure of the headmaster? Wouldn’t he have to free them? Without having a conversation with Dumbledore, she can’t hope to actually attain her goal.

Andrew: I just chalk this up to a kid being a kid. This is something Hermione would look back at later and just go, “What was I thinking?” And now that she’s the Minister for Magic, maybe she could make a difference in Hogwarts in terms of the house-elves being there.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Laura: I was going to say also, I think to Hermione’s credit, she is fighting an uphill battle here. Nobody takes SPEW seriously. I mean, even Harry and Ron, who I would say are good, relatively moral people, have treated it like, “Oh, this is Hermione’s little cause; we don’t really indulge her on it all that much,” and it comes across kind of crazy in the context of this world where house-elf slave labor is just normal.

Eric: Here’s the comparison I’ll draw: veganism and meat-eating. We needed something. We needed an alternative that was easy, like the Impossible Burger. Now you can go to Burger King and get the Impossible Burger.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Before that, you might have hated animal cruelty, you might have hated the beef industry and what it’s doing for carbon emissions and all this other stuff, but it’s like, “Oh, become vegan, or start eating more plant-based food, and get rid of meat? Cut out meat? How am I going to do that? How on earth would I even begin?”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, things had to exist. The method had to be put in place first. People need to be given the alternatives, shown the alternate method, and it needs to be, unfortunately, as easy as possible for them to switch in order for them to stop. And Hermione needs to… I mean, I guess in order for it to work easier, should have shown people the alternative to using the elf labor at Hogwarts.

Andrew: That’s a great point.

Laura: Which should be easy. The alternative is magic.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah!

Laura: We’ve seen that Mrs. Weasley uses magic to cook. You can use magic to cook. You can use magic to wash your clothing. I mean, if people were able to vanish their poo away…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … you can’t tell me that you couldn’t just magic your clothes clean without having to physically wash them.

Andrew: So that’s what Hermione should have done, an after hours class where she teaches people how to clean their own clothes, how to make their own food, and do everything else that the house-elves currently do.

Eric: And if you don’t want to politicize it, you don’t need to say, “This is to free the elf labor” and all this stuff, but it’s making people independent for the future, when odds are, as soon as they leave Hogwarts, they’re not going to have elf labor doing all these things for them.

Andrew: That’s a good point, too. Yeah, like, “You’d better get ready for the real world.”

Eric: So I think we’ve solved it, you guys. I think we’ve… [laughs]

Andrew: We did, absolutely.

Eric: So we actually have a really good Care of Magical Creatures class, and I’ve just got to say: I know that Harry is sad about Hagrid, but it’s really refreshing in this chapter to get a class that seems perfectly conceived, well-executed, and bottomline, interesting, right? With no catch. We learn about Bowtruckles.

Andrew: Fascinating, and it feels like an Easter egg in hindsight because Bowtruckles take center stage in Fantastic Beasts.

Eric: [laughs] They do, yeah. And we learn that they’re tree guardians, that they live mostly around wand trees, particularly the trees with which Ollivander finds wandwoods. And he has to be a pretty skilled wizard, we learn, because Bowtruckles have really razor-sharp pointy bits, and also get very defensive of defending their home, so it’s kind of… it made me really appreciate Ollivander, learning more about Bowtruckles.

Andrew: Yeah. And Megan, you found some pretty interesting information about Bowtruckles, right?

Megan: Yeah, I think in the book it says they eat woodlice and then fairy eggs, and this stood out to me because I realized I didn’t know much about fairies in the Harry Potter universe, so I did a little research. They’re mentioned a few times in Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire for decorations, particularly at the Yule Ball; when Hagrid and Madame Maxime were having their conversation, she gets up and swarms of fairies rise up around her. And then in the Fantastic Beasts book, it says they can lay up to 50 eggs at a time on the underside of leaves in those wand trees, and that there are two types: They’re either conjured by wizards for decoration, like we’ve seen, or found in woodlands.

Andrew: Interesting. I wonder if all these little pieces of Fantastic Beasts were a signal that J.K. Rowling was really interested in creating a whole other story this early on, even while writing Order of the Phoenix. Because I think about Bowtruckles, I think about these Newt references in the previous chapter…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s like J.K. Rowling was itching to go this direction. And she did say it later on that like, “If I was going to write another story, this was going to be the one, because I do feel most passionate about it.” So we do see some hints of it here.

Eric: Yeah, and Grubbly-Plank has a good humor about it. She’s teaching the class. She says, “If angered they will gouge out human eyes with their fingers, which, as you can see, are very sharp and not at all desirable near the eyeballs.” She’s a great teacher, you guys. She’s humorous. She’s informative. And the lesson is to take a Bowtruckle – carefully – and just draw, after close enough inspection… look at it long enough that you can draw a sketch and label or identify the body parts. She’s doing this with live beasts; it’s not like they had to dissect a toad and do this or anything like that. And in fact, Harry loses his; it goes off into the woods. [laughs] But I think that it’s just a really good class and evidence that whatever hole Grubbly-Plank lives in when Hagrid is the teacher, she should be full-time all the time.

Andrew: And was that J.K. Rowling’s goal, to make her an attractive teacher so we as a reader don’t really miss Hagrid too much? [laughs] Or maybe the students.

Laura: I think it’s intended to generate internal conflict, because you’re very much like Harry in this instance, where you’re like, “Oh, I love Hagrid, and I care about Hagrid. Oh, but she’s actually a better teacher.”

Andrew: [laughs] Right, right. Also, I will just say I think she has the worst name out of any Harry Potter character in the series. “Grubbly-Plank.” Like, J.K. Rowling was thinking of a name for this teacher; she’s like, “Okay, Professor Grubbly. I don’t know; that’s not dumb enough. I need to add a second name to this professor’s last name. I know – Plank.”

Laura: It just makes me think of a moldy piece of wood.

Andrew: I just think of a pirate walking on a plank out to their death.

Laura: [laughs] Well, speaking of Bowtruckles, rereading this was really interesting to me because I feel like I had forgotten that they can actually inflict real physical harm, because in Fantastic Beasts, they’re kind of cute, you know? And I don’t know; I just wonder if we’re going to see more of the dark side of Bowtruckles moving forward.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Fantastic Beasts and the Dark Side of the Bowtruckle, coming November 2022.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We’re going to get an evil Bowtruckle, like evil C-3PO.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just a black Bowtruckle, maybe a little bigger. Yeah, Newt carries this thing in his pocket where the Bowtruckle could easily access his eyeballs…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: … so that does sound pretty dangerous.

Eric: Newt is a badass.

Andrew: He must have a really good relationship with the Bowtruckle, because I wouldn’t want to risk that.

Eric: Well, wasn’t it that Pickett was picked on by the other Bowtruckles? He’s like the Rudolph of the Bowtruckles?

Andrew: Ohh.

Megan: Aren’t his hands like leaves, so they don’t have the sharp twigs?

Eric: He’s been maybe neutered.

Laura: [laughs] Oh my God.

Andrew: They’ll never make the Bowtruckle evil because it is a product they could sell in the flagship Harry Potter store, and if it’s evil, nobody will buy it.

Eric: Wait, wait, wait. You’re wrong, because Death Eater stuff sells all the time like hotcakes.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. So the Bowtruckles start appealing to the dark Harry Potter fans who…

Eric: But I like that Pickett has leaves for hands, because he’s a man of peace and not a man of war.

Andrew: Hey, man. Peace and love, peace and love.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Also, from the description in the book, I envision the Bowtruckles to be larger than how Pickett is depicted in the films, so maybe he’s like the runt of the litter.

Andrew: Maybe, yeah. I suppose they had to make Pickett small enough to fit into Newt’s pocket, so that could be a factor. Because it is cute seeing…

Eric: Well, I always imagine… walking sticks, aren’t they called? The bugs that you literally think they’re part of a leaf or part of a tree?

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I think about those a lot. But Harry does openly ask, “What’s with Hagrid?” And Grubbly-Plank, I think, directly answers that “It’s none of…” I forget exactly what happens, but Malfoy overhears, of course. And actually, this is a very weird, unexpected moment for Draco to come and make fun of Harry, but he really lays on thickly that Hagrid is up to something big…

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: … and also might have been injured. We know that this is true, both of those things. How does Malfoy know?

Andrew: I think you have an idea, Megan.

Megan: Yeah, I just looked ahead at later in the book when Hagrid is telling this story. There was the old Gurg that got thrown out, and the new Gurg had told the Death Eaters about Hagrid and Madame Maxime, so he knew that Macnair, one of the Death Eaters, was looking around the mountains for them, so that probably got back to the Malfoys at some point.

Andrew: Yeah, and it must really suck for Harry to know that Malfoy knows more than he does. Malfoy is more in the know thanks to his father, while Harry’s father, so to speak – Dumbledore – is not talking to him or giving him any info at all.

Eric: Yeah, it’s an opportunity for Harry to feel pretty left out, which… there’s kind of a tonic to that, which is this resilience of his friends to really come together. And I’ve written… what happens next? I think Luna Lovegood is Harry’s best friend right now, definitely his fiercest ally. They’re going to Herbology, and Luna comes out the door, sees him, goes right up to him, and says, “I believe you,” and says that “I believe this happened, and I believe in you.” And he doesn’t know what to expect; he’s too busy thinking, “Oh, I’d rather have sane people believing me and say this,” but that was a hell of a thing, can we just acknowledge, for Luna to do.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. I mean, think about when you’re low in life and maybe you don’t want to talk about the things that are going on, and a good friend of yours – or an acquaintance, like Luna would be at this stage – just comes up to you and says, “I believe you.”

Eric: But even Hermione throws shade on Luna, and she again mentions the Quibbler, and she says that Harry can do much better than Luna. And I’m thinking, “Girl, are you reading the same book we’re reading?” Because we’re talking about the Daily Prophet smearing Harry, and here’s the Quibbler, an alternative that isn’t government-run, and you’re going to trash it because, what, it’s not, I don’t know, popular? Or it’s not official? Or it’s not…? Her problem… I think that we found an area of hypocrisy for Hermione here in the way that she initially treats Luna.

Laura: Yeah, agreed. She’s not seeing the value in allyship, right? Allyship does not mean that you necessarily believe all the same things as the person that you’re attempting to ally with, but it shows that you believe their experience, and it normalizes that belief. And the fact that Luna is… she doesn’t care what people think she is, and she very much uses her own head, which is something the vast majority of the student body is not doing right now. So I agree, Hermione is definitely overlooking the importance of Harry having an ally so strong that they would, in front of the whole student body, loudly proclaim, “I believe you.” And then that opens the door for Ernie Macmillan to come up and do the same thing.

Eric: Yep. I mean, it’s a snowball effect, and it’s a really lovely thing. Luna just did the right thing. This is what you need to hear, and Harry is a little not smart enough to realize it, but he needed to hear this. And then also in this chapter, Angelina Johnson is kind of a jerk to Harry, so he really needs as many friends as he can get. Angelina is holding Quidditch tryouts. This is obviously something that Harry would innately want to be a part of, but he can’t because of detention, and he is a little hesitant to tell her. And really, this is the point where we get to the namesake part of the chapter, “Detention with Dolores.” I guess I’m trying to read back, or trying to remember when I was 15 and reading this book for the first time, what I expected out of detention.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, what’s pivotal here is that before this chapter, you just see Umbridge as an annoying teacher who’s mean. It’s another Snape. But then once you see what she does to Harry in this chapter, she goes from that to just pure evil. To force a student to cut themselves again and again over a period of four days and not stop until he is bleeding to her satisfaction, that is pure evil. So the first time we read this, I think you’re just seeing her as another Snape, and then once you get through that, you’re like, “Wow. Yep, she goes beyond Snape. She is a horrible human being.” And this is just the beginning.

Eric: I think that’s a good point. I think that this chapter very quickly sets her apart from even Snape. Yeah, yeah, I think you’re exactly right on that. But I have to laugh, because Harry is woefully unprepared to handle this situation. He does the best he can in terms of bearing the pain; he says he won’t give her the satisfaction of seeing him openly wince, really. But he does go to the first detention and say, “Hey, can I have off Friday?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And I’m thinking this is clearly… there’s no universe in which this would have worked.

Andrew: No, and probably not for any teacher, because as Umbridge brings up, the point of detention is to take you away from things you would be doing otherwise, especially something that might be really meaningful to you. And it’s to teach you a lesson that if you didn’t screw up, you could have been at that Quidditch tryout, but you’re not because you messed up, so don’t mess up again.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s interesting that it just ends up that Harry can see the pitch from the window, and he’s able to pretty much figure out most… he’s able to basically catch tryouts anyway, which is a weird choice, but kind of fortunate. But really, on that line, I don’t think Umbridge is wrong. It’s just on the actual detention process.

Andrew: So what do we make of this actually happening at Hogwarts? Umbridge torturing a student like this? And I really have to give it to Harry to not even wince during this, because I would. I’d be screaming.

Eric: I question how the quill was first conceived, why it exists. This is not something that Umbridge made. It’s something she procured, surely, but why would something like this even exist? Is this one of those medieval torture methods that Filch keeps wanting to bring out?

Andrew: This does sound medieval.

Laura: Yeah, I think also, as I was reading this, I was like, “Does Dumbledore really not know that this is happening?” I just… we always hear that Dumbledore knows what’s going on in the school.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So I’m like, “Do you know?” And just… are you doing the whole “For the greater good” thing, and just being like, “Well, sorry, Harry; just gotta live with it”?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Is this for the greater good? Could one argue that?

Eric: If he draws the line at Trelawney not being able to be physically removed from the school, why is he allowing his students to be mutilated? Especially Harry.

Megan: I feel like he would know. Does he ever find out about this later? I can’t remember.

Andrew: I don’t think so.

Megan: And I don’t think it’s like in the movie where everyone does it; everyone gets detention like this. I think it’s just Harry.

Andrew: Yeah. If I were Harry, I definitely would tell Dumbledore and Umbridge at some point… well, obviously Harry runs out of time with Dumbledore by the end of the next book, but maybe tell McGonagall at some point, like, “Hey, this was happening at Hogwarts. Can you make sure this never happens at the school again, please?”

Eric: Harry just… it’s so interesting how internally Harry takes this task. He sees it as Umbridge in a… it’s a personal attack on him. The line he has to write is, “I must not tell lies. I must not.” And it’s a personal confrontation between him and Umbridge over the sanctity of the truth, of telling the truth. And I think that he really just internal… he makes it a personal war. And he knows that if he goes to his Head of House, or goes to Dumbledore, or goes to Madam Pomfrey, that they might take the appropriate actions and stop her from doing this, but he doesn’t want to give what he sees as the satisfaction to Umbridge of having to be rebuked. He’s like, “I will bear this. Do your worst.” And I think that’s so heroic of Harry, despite we really feel bad for him.

Andrew: Yeah. Another sad thing about this is something that I brought up at the end of last week’s episode: Those scars stick with Harry for the rest of his life. You still see them on his hands in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, and when you’re watching it from far back in the theater, you probably won’t even notice. But if you look at publicity photos of the actual show, you see the scars on his hands. And I guess they made a point to include those, because it speaks to the darkness that is still within Harry. You don’t see those in the movie after Movie 5, right?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I mean, that stuff is gone, so they must have put those on just to, like I said, make a point about things still disturbing Harry even in his later years.

Laura: It does make me wonder has Hogwarts protocol changed at all since the trio went? Are they confident when they send their kids to school? Like, “Yeah, this is going to be fine.”

Andrew: Right, you would be uncomfortable, wouldn’t you? Well, I guess knowing that McGonagall is running the show might assure them.

Megan: It’s no longer a security nightmare.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Right. It’s all over. Dumbledore is out. Good times to be had at Hogwarts now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I don’t know. I would, Laura, send my kid there and keep a close eye on things that are happening. I would maybe write to them and be like, “Hey, is everything okay? How are things going? Are the staircases still moving? Are the house-elves still there? Is McGonagall actually monitoring everything that’s going on? Are you aware of any Dark magic or Dark items?”

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I also feel like culturally in the wizarding world, there’s just this sort of tacit acceptance that this is just the way things are.

Andrew: [laughs] Just deal with it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s just normal.

Andrew: Welcome to Hogwarts. Things will always be messed up.

Eric: I mean, it eventually gets worse, with Alecto and Amicus performing spells on the kids, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: I think anything from there is… it can only go up.

Andrew: Yeah, that was definitely rock bottom. No, but I would actually argue that after the events of Deathly Hallows, things got a lot better at the school. I bet they’ve made a lot of changes. You think about, like I said, McGonagall running the show; then you have Hermione as the Minister for Magic. I think they would both work together to create a safer environment at Hogwarts. I say this, and now people are going to bring up stuff in the Cursed Child that happened that are probably security nightmares.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, most of that happened in Harry’s fourth year, so it doesn’t count.

Andrew: True, true.

Eric: So we all agree Umbridge sucks. She will continue to suck. I don’t think anything she does is more horrendous than this, though.

Andrew: No, I think you’re right.

Eric: I think that this is not only the first most shocking thing that she does, but it allows… and it had to be shocking, right? It had to get all the readers on the side of, “Oh, this is an awful person,” so that we can relish her fall from grace and power. It’s a long time coming; it’s another seven or eight months before she’s gone. But it’s just unfortunate because this is actually very horrifying.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Eric: Yeah, but we find out the results of Quidditch, and Angelina made Ronald Weasley a Keeper. He’s a Keeper, everybody.

Andrew: He is a Keeper.

Eric: The great thing – and I appreciate Angelina’s bluntness – She says to Harry, “I know he’s your best mate, but he’s not fabulous. I think with a bit of training, he’ll be all right. He comes from a family of good Quidditch players. I’m banking on him turning out to have a bit more talent than he showed today.” This is good advice, and I think that she doesn’t specifically boil it down to nerves. We know Ron suffers from nerves and has that as a real problem, but I tended to forget that I think even Bill and Charlie were on the Quidditch team. At least one of them was a Beater; might have been Charlie, but now it’s Fred and George, obviously. And that’s a good reminder for me. “Oh yeah, Ron comes from a successful Quidditch family.” And we know Ginny eventually takes it professional.

Andrew: Right. The things she said about Ron are worth discussing, because he was not her favorite pick.

Eric: True.

Andrew: This kind of sucks, and I’m sure Ron isn’t aware of this, right? That he was… [laughs]

Eric: Right, yeah.

Andrew: Look, this happens, and I mean, how are people who suck supposed to get ahead in the world if they don’t occasionally run into opportunities like this?

Eric: Yeah, I don’t blame Angelina for this thought process. She’s letting Harry into it because she obviously trusts him. But ultimately, this choice… particularly Vicky, that she’s involved in all sorts of societies, and if training clashes, is going to choose those over Quidditch… you need somebody… as a captain, you really want to put – and this is just anybody as a hiring manager for a position – you want a candidate that’s going to put this position first, that cares about it. And I think with Ron, you at least have Fred and George, his brothers there to keep him in check for any bad temper moments, so it does make a lot of sense. I could just appreciate that. I mean, yeah, it sucks for Ron being third best, and if he knew that, he would never play, like you said. [laughs] But I think it really is smart decision-making on the part of Angelina here. He’s just got a golden opportunity to prove his worth. This is all that he ever wanted. It was in his Mirror of Erised, wasn’t it? Being a Quidditch captain or something? Being good at Quidditch?

Laura: And he proves himself later.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: Good times. I believe that concludes our discussion of this chapter.

Andrew: Okay. So the Umbridge Suck count currently stands at 16, but we’re going to add four to the board today. Eric, do you want to go through them?

Eric: Yep, number one: being so cheerful about inflicting pain and devising this lesson plan in the first place. She is all smiles when Harry comes in, and that speaks to her sadistic nature. That’s really sick. So for coming up to this… also, when he first finds out what the quill does, she dictates that it’s going to last – each of these lessons is going to last – until it “sinks in” and until the words on his hand bleed more easily.

Andrew: Awful.

Eric: That, I felt…

Andrew: That’s worth two points. Put that too.

Eric: Yep, I agree. So relishing her… yeah, add two? Okay.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But this is kind of the same point, just relishing that it causes him pain. Her sadism… is that an extra one? Not an extra one? Who knows. But then I also added being inflexible with the detentions. So we know she has a point, but she really isn’t willing to meet Harry halfway here. She’s not even willing to meet him at all. She is the authoritarian. She’s laying down her duty, her authority, and so I thought that deserved a special suck as well.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: So I’d say add four, still.

Andrew: That special suck. I love a special suck.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: All right, so let’s add five. So that’s one…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Two…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Three…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Four…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Five.

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: I should just do that while you read each one, but I feel like it’s disruptive, so I don’t. Okay, so the new total is 21.


Connecting the Threads


Andrew: Laura, I’m sorry; I apologize. I kind of stole your thunder at the beginning of this Chapter by Chapter by doing my own connecting the threads, but what other threads did you find?

Laura: Oh, yeah, no problem at all. I love that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I felt like you at the beginning of the chapter. I even dyed my hair purple so I could have… I could really be you.

Laura: Ooh. You’re going to have to go pink, because that’s what I’m doing next.

Andrew: Oh, man, I can’t keep up.

Laura: So one of the first threads that I connected between Chapter 13 of Order of the Phoenix and Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban is this idea of mistaking the villain. So in Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban, Ron wakes up to see Sirius Black standing over him with a knife. Ron, of course, believes that Sirius was going to hurt him – or looking for Harry, rather – but what he’s actually looking for is Scabbers, a.k.a. Peter Pettigrew. Then in Chapter 13 of Order of the Phoenix, Harry feels a searing pain in his scar when Umbridge touches him, and he tells Hermione that he assumes that she might be being controlled by Voldemort, similar to how Quirrell was controlled by him in Book 1. And ultimately here we know that Umbridge is a villain, but she’s not the villain, if that makes sense. Then we also have some Draco manipulation and distraction tactics happening in Chapter 13 of both of these books. So like I mentioned earlier, in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13, Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle dress up as Dementors and enter the Quidditch pitch to throw Harry off his game. Really here they’re just trying to appeal to his fear and anxiety of Dementors. And then in this chapter, as we talked about earlier, Draco alludes to this idea of knowing that something bad has happened to Hagrid, again appealing to Harry’s anxieties here, and in this case, Harry’s ignorance about where Hagrid is, and it’s all in an attempt to make Harry feel uncomfortable in his own skin, especially in places where he should be comfortable, like the Quidditch pitch, like the Care of Magical Creatures class. Then we have this theme of Ravenclaw allies. So even though Harry and Cho are Quidditch rivals in Chapter 13 of Prisoner of Azkaban, playing against each other both as Seekers, she actually alerts Harry to the “Dementors” on the pitch, even though they’re currently playing against each other. Harry ultimately still wins the match as a result of this. And then in this chapter, as we talked about earlier, Luna announces for all to hear that she believes Harry, without regard for how she might be perceived for that.

Andrew: Interesting. Thinking back to that moment in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13, when Sirius was holding a knife over Ron, maybe not the best way to approach a child.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, but he’s been in Azkaban for 12 years. He’s stunted.

Andrew: Right, he doesn’t know how to present himself around other human beings, I guess. [laughs]

Laura: Right. Also, what was he going to do? Show up and be like, “Hey guys, I’m Sirius Black…”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “Please don’t be alarmed. I’m just here to kill your rat.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Makes perfect sense, dude. Go for it.

Megan: I actually had one more for Prisoner of Azkaban: Just in Chapter 12, Harry is starting his nighttime lessons with Lupin, where he learns to protect himself from Dementors, and that’s very different from his nighttime detentions with another DADA professor, Umbridge, where she’s actively harming him.

Laura: Oooh. Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s a direct contrast.

Andrew: Yeah. Megan had to get a reference to her favorite character in here. I think that’s what that was about.

[Everyone laughs]


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time for MVP of the Week. I’m going to give it to Angelina for giving Ron this opportunity that he really wanted. It was the feel good moment of the chapter.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Ron for showing the value of reliability.

Eric: Is that a joke?

Laura: No.

Eric: Because he doesn’t stand up for Hermione at all when she’s attacking Fred and George. [laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean reliability when it comes to Quidditch. No, because it is true that I would rather… if I’m choosing somebody to work with, and I have an A student and a B student, but the A student is totally flaky and isn’t going to follow through and isn’t going to show up, but the B student will, I’d go with the B student, because reliability and dependability are important…

Andrew: So important.

Laura: … and they can take you a long way.

Andrew: Yeah, just having those two aspects could probably get you anywhere you need to be in life, to be honest with you. That just got too real for me for a moment.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Eric, how about you? [laughs]

Eric: I gave mine to the house-elves for sticking it out. Hermione is presenting them with a real challenge. They also didn’t… they could go to Dumbledore and say, “This crazy girl keeps trying to free us.” [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point, too.

Eric: “We don’t want this! Stop doing this!”

Andrew: I would just love to see the sit-down between Dumbledore and Hermione. If that happened, Dumbledore would have to approach Hermione, and I guess I can’t see him doing it. Maybe he would pass the task on to McGonagall, but that would be an entertaining conversation. “Hermione, please stop.”

Eric: Right?

Laura: I don’t think they would, though, because it is wrong, this whole culture of enslaving house-elves. It’s just morally bankrupt. But it’s one of those things that I think most people, if they stopped and thought about it for 30 seconds, they’d be like, “Yeah, that’s kind of screwed up, but it’s just the way we’ve always done things, so…” and then they just go on with their day. So I think, as we mentioned earlier, Hermione’s heart is in the right place here. I think that she’s absolutely right that the wizarding world can’t be built on the back of elvish slave – or not elvish, excuse me – house-elvish slave labor. But she’s young, and she doesn’t totally have her bearings on what the most impactful and effective method for changing that is yet.

Andrew: Yeah. And finally, Megan, your MVP?

Megan: My MVP was Luna for saying outright what she believed and what she thinks is right, and she doesn’t care what other people think of her.

Andrew: Harry really needed it in that moment.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “The Second Scar.”

Laura: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Lawful Evil.”

Andrew: You think this is lawful, huh?

Eric: Technically within the law.

Laura: Yeah, also it’s a nerd reference.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: It’s fine.

Eric: You’re talking about the alignments for D&D.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: What is this nerdy…?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Andrew, you’ve never played D&D?

Andrew: Dungeons and Dragons? No, I have not. I have not.

Eric: Okay. All right.

Andrew: Respect, though. I respect that.

Eric: Okay. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Torture with Dolores.”

Andrew: It’s a more accurate title, for sure.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Little straightforward there.

Megan: Mine was kind of similar: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 13, “Torture with the Toad.”

Andrew: Ah, alliteration.

Laura: Ooh, you’ve got that alliteration going.

Eric: That’s even better.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, we would love to hear from you. Email MuggleCast@gmail.com or go to MuggleCast.com and use the contact form. You can also send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or call us: 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Admittedly, we haven’t been including feedback much, but please send it in and we will try to get some of it on air.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for some Quizzitch.

Eric: Yes, last week’s question was: What has Hermione been making over the summer? And we learn in this chapter that the answer is hats for the house-elves. She’s been knitting them all year. Correct answers were submitted to us by Count Ravioli, Beth McGaughey, Incessant Bookworm, The Cat’s Pajamas, Euan the Quizzitch Player, Marie, and Tara. Congrats to all who contributed to that. Of course, we enter on Twitter at MuggleCast, hashtag Quizzitch, and next week’s question is: What does Cho refer to Ron as to Harry? And it’s a funny kind of succinct way of putting things.

Andrew: All right. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening. Megan, thanks for joining us today. It was great having you on.

Megan: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun.

Andrew: If you would like to join our community today, head over to Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You will get instant access to lots of benefits, including installments of bonus MuggleCast; you will be able to see our planning docs so you can see what is coming up on next week’s episode; you will also be able to hop into our recording studio, because we livestream every episode as we are recording it, and we typically do that on Saturday or Sunday mornings. You will also get access to that new benefit; it’s so new, it’s not even on Patreon as I speak. We should really get that added. When you pledge, one of us will record a video “Thank you” to you, and we’re planning on having a lot of fun with that. I’m really excited to get started. So thank you for your support; it goes a long way, it means a lot to us, and it keeps the show running. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Megan: And I’m Megan.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: See ya.

Eric: Bye.

Transcript #448

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #448, Have a Biscuit (OOTP 12, Professor Umbridge)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world, our first episode of 2020! I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And we are joined by one of our friends, somebody who’s been in the fandom for a really long time, who has his own Harry Potter fansite, Andy McCray! Hi, Andy.

Andy McCray: Hi, Andrew. Hi, folks. Thanks for having me on.

Andrew: You are down in Australia. We’ve known you for such a long time; we were just talking before the show. We first met in 2005 in person, but that was also the last time. [laughs]

Andy: That is. It was a fly in/fly out visit.

Andrew: Yeah, and then a couple weeks ago on an episode, Eric is reading the Quizzitch answers, and he was like, “Oh, and Andy from Harry Potter Fan Zone,” and we’re like, “Oh, cool! Andy is listening to the show still! That’s awesome.”

[Andy laughs]

Andrew: And then Micah was…

Andy: I’ve been listening the whole time. I love hearing you guys.

Andrew: Oh, good. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. I think we knew that, and then we just… I don’t know; it slipped our minds. But anyway, you’re here now. It’s great to have you on. You have…

Andy: It’s a pleasure to be here.

Andrew: When did you launch Harry Potter Fan Zone?

Andy: So Harry Potter Fan Zone launched in December of 2003 and it was kind of just a school side project, and then I just got so in love with the Harry Potter fandom and the whole website community, and I’ve been doing it ever since.

Andrew: Yeah, very cool. And one of the shining moments in your site’s history, I’m sure, is when J.K. Rowling gave you her fansite award.

Andy: It was totally surreal. I remember waking up and there was an email, and it said, “Check your inbox in a couple of hours; you’re going to get a really nice surprise.” And then I read that I got the fansite award, and then I had to go off to school and sit in exams.

Andrew: [laughs] Be a normal kid.

Andy: I could not concentrate all day.

[Andy and Eric laugh]

Andy: It was like, “Do you people know what’s happening?”

Andrew: Yeah, right. [laughs] “J.K. Rowling recognized my website!” Back in the day on J.K. Rowling’s awesome, original website, every… I don’t know; what was it, month? Two months or so? She would give out a fansite award for a time. What did that entail? Did she send you something physical? Was it a key or… did she give you anything?

Andy: Oh, I wish so. No, it was a little graphic, and then it was some lovely words that she said. She’d said that the site was really insightful, which is something I wish I could get tattooed on my forehead.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andy: I still have the graphic to this day, and it’s still pride of place on the masthead.

Andrew: That is so cool. She was like, “This is THE Australian Harry Potter fansite,” right?

Andy: She did. And one of the things she said in the message was, “I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to award you this; I had to finish Book 7 first.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andy: Like, “Please, it’s no problem at all!”

Andrew: That’s so cool.

Andy: “Please finish the book; don’t let me hold you up.”

Laura: Priorities.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. Was your website traffic just insane after she did that? Do you remember?

Andy: It was, and I think the server crashed the next day, and then it was just sort of like, “Oh, what am I doing here? This is ridiculous.”

Andrew: That’s a good problem to have.

Andy: But I wouldn’t have passed it up for the world. It was incredible.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I remember those days of servers crashing.

Andy: It’s because MuggleNet would link something, and it’d be like, “Oh, check out the rest of the gallery at Harry Potter Fan Zone,” and I’d be like, “Oh, we’re in for a…”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Thanks but no thanks for all that traffic.” Good stuff. Well, it’s great to have you on, and on today’s episode, we are going to discuss Chapter 12 of Order of the Phoenix, “Professor Umbridge.” So our Umbridge Suck count is going to skyrocket this week, I think. Did anybody get any fun gifts over the holidays? I’m curious because we did our holiday gift guide.

Laura: I got so much Harry Potter stuff for Christmas and my birthday this year, y’all. I got the first three illustrated editions, which I did not have.

Andrew: Aw, yay!

Andy: Awesome.

Laura: I got a 12-pack of Harry Potter-themed socks.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: This is kind of a sidebar, because I ran out of socks this year, and my boyfriend went to both of our families and was like, “She needs socks.” So his mom got me socks, and my mom got me socks, so I have a lot of socks now. Half of them are Harry Potter socks. I also got the Lego Knight Bus, so I’m going to be…

Andrew: Oooh.

Andy: Ooh, so did I, Laura.

Laura: Yeah, I’m going to be building that and adding that to my collection. I got… oh my gosh, what else did I get?

Micah: Laura, just quickly, you do know we’re sponsored by Bombas, right? We could have maybe worked something out for you.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: But yeah, that’s just the beginning of it. Pretty much everything was Harry Potter-themed, and I was okay with it.

Andrew: That’s awesome.

Laura: Felt kind of awkward after the latest J.K. Rowling drama, but yeah. [laughs]

Eric: I’ve got to say, my big thing… we did our MuggleCast Secret Santa gift exchange over on the MuggleCast Patrons Facebook group, and I got a really cool piece of art – I dropped it in the show document – from Hannah Howard, my Secret Santa, and she draws people as Famous Witches and Wizards Cards.

Andrew: Ooh!

Eric: So I am really, really happy with it. And she sent a new Gryffindor tie and a new puzzle from New York Puzzle Company. It’s really good when we mention the gifts that we ourselves would love on this show…

Andrew: [laughs] Right, makes it easier.

Eric: … because it really pays untold dividends for us. So I’m really happy with my Harry Potter haul.

Micah: Which puzzle was it, Eric?

Eric: It was the Diagon Alley… Hagrid taking Harry through Diagon Alley, 500 piece puzzle.

Andrew: Oh, that one’s cool.

Micah: I completed that one as well over the holidays.

Eric: Oh, really?

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: I did three puzzles, so clearly I had a lot of time on my hands.

Eric: Oh my God!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: You were hooked. That’s fantastic.

Micah: Yeah, I basically funded the New York Puzzle Company over the last month.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So have our listeners. There’s been so much puzzle love; it’s unbelievable. I think we’re single-handedly bringing puzzles back.

Eric: [laughs] It’s a new show tagline for 2020.

Andy: Micah, on your recommendation, I got the Mary Grand-Pré Harry Potter socks that all seven books.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Andy: And they are wonderful.

Andrew: I recommended on our holiday gift guide episode the Harry Potter spirit jerseys from BoxLunch, and I did ask Santa for that, and I received my Slytherin one, and I’m really happy with it. It looks great, it fits great, and on the inside of the collar, it has the Slytherin traits, which I thought was a really nice touch.

Laura: That’s neat!

Andrew: Yeah, so “Cunning” and whatever the other ones are. “Sexy.” “Podcast superstar.” All those things. Fits me perfectly.

Micah: Are those really Slytherin traits or just things you’d like to aspire to?

Andrew: Aspire to? I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Eric: He’s already there, Micah.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I also participated in the Secret Santa with our patrons, and thanks to Nicole, I received two beer mugs that have the MuggleCast logo on them.

Andrew: Perfect.

Micah: And Eric, I know you provided a helping hand here, but these are really cool. I think I posted them up at least on my social media, but we can post them on the MuggleCast Twitter or Instagram. They are really cool; a lot of thought went into those, and I can tell you that they’ve been used. Not going to tell you how many times they’ve been used so far, but they’ve definitely been used.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And a really great and thoughtful gift. She also sent through a deck of Harry Potter playing cards, so I’ll have to put those to good use as well.

Eric: Shout-out real quick to Brittney for once again running the Secret Santa. It’s a thankless job. Over 100 people participated this year; it was really cool.

Andrew: Very nice. Little announcement before we get to Chapter by Chapter: With the new year, we are going to be moving MuggleCast’s releases to Tuesdays. The reason for this is so we have a little more time to get our ducks in a row and get the episode out to you reliably first thing Tuesday morning, so you’ll know when you wake up – at least in America…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … there will be a new episode of MuggleCast waiting for you for your commute or whatever else you’ve got going on that day. So after this episode, I believe – we’ll probably release this one on Monday because everybody is eager for it after us being away for a couple weeks – but henceforth, MuggleCast will be released on Tuesdays. It’s a little sad because we can no longer say MuggleCast Mondays; there’s nice alliteration there. But we just need a little more time.

Laura: It can be Trelawney Tuesdays.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Are we calling ourselves Trelawney now? TrelawneyCast?

Laura: TrelawneyCast.

Andrew: Sure. Also a name change.

Laura: [laughs] New year, new us.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: MuggleCast Tuesday. I mean, obviously MuggleCast ends with a T and Tuesday starts with a T.

Eric: Oh, MuggleCastTuesday.

Andrew: It’s all one word now.

Laura: Oh. Yeah.

Andrew: Perfect.

Laura: I love it.

Andrew: [laughs] Crisis averted.

Laura: Wonderful. Well, speaking of “New year, new you,” today’s sponsor is definitely a good way to get your new year started.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Sounds good. Micah, I was just thinking maybe we should do Micah Mondays, where you dance on social media or something. What do you think of that?

Micah: No.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, that makes it simple.

Eric: You had so much fun with the takeover for the giveaway. It could be a natural fit.

Andrew: Right, yeah. More of that to entertain the people while they wait for the new episode.

Micah: I’ll do another giveaway if that’s what you want.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I guess I’m so fortunate…

Andrew: Every Monday? No, not with how you spend. No, no, no.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Tripling the expectations.

Micah: Oh, come on. We made people’s holidays.

Andrew: I know. I’m completely kidding.

Eric: We’re still getting “Thank you”s from people.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Chapter by Chapter. This week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Professor Umbridge,” and we will start with our seven-word summary. And Andy, you can kick it off.

Andy: Okay. Classes…

Eric: … begin…

Andrew: … for…

Micah: … the…

Laura: Ooh, I feel like I have total control over the direction with this right now.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: You do. It’s in the palm of your hand.

Laura: I don’t like it. Classes begin for the… term? Good luck, guys. [laughs]

Andy: … despite…

Eric: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Andrew: Come on, Eric. You got this.

Eric: … attitudes.

Andrew: [laughs] “Despite attitudes.” I was thinking “despite terror”!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … afoot.

Laura: I was thinking “despite suckage.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Yeah, because definitely the classes don’t go well, do they? But I think Harry’s attitude should be front and center, hence putting it in.

Laura: Yeah, he does have one this chapter for sure.

Eric: Yeah!

Laura: This book, really, but…

Micah: Well, hopefully our discussion is going to be better than our seven-word summary.

[Andrew laughs]

Andy: And Andy was never invited back.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It’s not your fault!

Micah: No, Andy, you did a good job.

Eric: Actually, your words… yeah, if we rate your words, your words are high on the list, buddy.

[Andy laughs]

Micah: Yeah, absolutely.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: So Andrew, let’s just go right to Umbridge. That’s pretty much what we want to do?

Andrew: Yeah, this is a big chapter. There is a lot happening here.

Micah: There really is. And Harry’s troubles continue right at the start of this chapter; he wakes up in the morning, and it’s really a bad day for him throughout. And he interacts with Seamus and… or actually, he doesn’t, because Seamus decides to leave early. Dean tries to help out a little bit, but at a loss for words. And then he finds out from Hermione that Lavender Brown isn’t buying Harry’s story either. So talk about waking up for your first day of classes in your fifth year at Hogwarts, people who you thought were your friends, they’re not buying what you’re selling.

Eric: Who asked Lavender anyway?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s just so funny. Lavender pre-Half-Blood Prince is way different than Lavender that we know in Half-Blood, when she’s seeking Ron and with Ron and all that. She definitely has her own personality. I’d forgotten that there seems to be some kind of struggle with the whole believing Harry thing this year on her part.

Micah: It’s okay, though, because J.K. Rowling feeds her to Greyback later on in the series.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow. You don’t believe Harry? Take this.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Yeah. And during this discussion, when Hermione is talking about how Lavender doesn’t believe Harry, one of the things that comes up again – and I think it’s one of those prevalent themes throughout the course of this book – is House unity, because Harry talks about how if you’re talking about making friends with the Slytherins, that’s never going to happen. And just want to talk a little bit about that, because Hermione does a couple things in this chapter, and McGonagall kind of gives her kudos at the end that I think are really important, and one of those things is bringing up House unity.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s something that sounds like a really good idea, but for as long as this point system is going to be in place at Hogwarts, it’s never going to happen.

Micah: So you think as long as the Houses are pitted against each other, there’s no real way for them to come together?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly, because they’re always going to get petty over House points. They’re always going to be competing to get those House points. They’re going to be mad when one House gets more points than the other at some point during the week.

Andy: And then what happens with Quidditch? It’s just a friendly fly-along.

Eric: Everybody flies. It’s like doing laps around the pitch.

[Andy and Laura laugh]

Andy: Just every day is training.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, I think on its face, if we’re talking about House points, it might sound like maybe not the top issue, but when you think about it, it really does permeate the whole culture of the school. I mean, they’ll have double lessons with another House and watch people be awarded House points for getting an answer correct, which seems so foreign to me. We didn’t get anything like that when I was in school. We weren’t rewarded for doing our reading and having the right answer. The reward is the knowledge that you gain from paying attention.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Knowledge is the currency of school.

Andrew and Laura: Right.

Andrew: There’s seemingly no guidelines for how points are… or for when points are awarded or taken away. That’s really frustrating, because you never know when they’re going to be coming or going.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: It’s purely at the discretion of the professor or the prefect or the Head Boy or the Head Girl.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And who’s to say that they have the right judgment in many cases?

Andrew: Oh, no, they do not.

Eric: I would agree. The infrastructure is just not there to really promote, to really go out, to really allow a lot of unity to happen.

Micah: One other thing that comes up in conversation is that Harry notices Professor Grubbly-Plank is up at the table again, and he’s wondering how long Hagrid is going to be away. And Hermione mentions that perhaps Dumbledore doesn’t want to draw attention to his absence, so instead of saying, “Hey, Hagrid is going to be back on the 12th of March,” he’s allowing him to keep a low profile, which I think is important. And it’s another good observation by Hermione.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Really, I’ve always felt like the theme of these books is if everybody would just listen to Hermione, things would go a lot more smoothly.

Micah: Absolutely.

Andrew: Harry Potter and Listen to Hermione, the new book from J.K. Rowling.

Eric: Yeah, she has the right take on things. She’s definitely the one between where Harry’s headspace is at in this chapter and where Ron’s headspace is at in this chapter. She’s just the level head who really provides viable takes on what’s going on, and with Umbridge in the previous chapter as well.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: And what is the advantage of not bringing attention to Hagrid’s absence?

Andy: I presumed it was so the Ministry didn’t perhaps cotton on that Hagrid was on secret Dumbledore business.

Laura: Agreed.

Andrew: And maybe we don’t want Umbridge thinking about Hagrid and potentially banning him from the school later on.

Laura: Right, because he’s one of those, as she would call it, nasty half-breeds.

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Micah: Well, we did get a bit of comedy in this chapter, because Fred and George are in it. And one thing that came up earlier on is when they’re leaving the common room, they notice that Fred and George are looking for some test subjects for some of their products…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and that doesn’t sit too well with Hermione, and we get this whole confrontation that comes up. And I can understand where Ron is coming from as a brother, not wanting to confront two of his older siblings about what they’re doing, and it made me think, why couldn’t the Head Boy or Head Girl – I’m presuming that there is one in Gryffindor at this time – confront them? Why does it have to be Ron and Hermione, if they really feel that uncomfortable?

Andrew: Right. Well, of course, from a story perspective, it’s just better to see Ron confront his brothers…

Micah: Of course.

Andrew: … and it’s entertaining because we want to see Ron stand up to his brothers, but he can’t. [laughs] I really wish he could have here. It doesn’t seem like that big of an ask. What is he afraid of? His brothers bullying him? Taunting him?

Micah: Probably.

Andrew: This is his role now. Take it into your hands and own it.

Eric: I completely agree, and it’s very clearly wrong. Hermione… there’s really no nuance to that, that Fred and George advertising for test subjects is wrong, especially when they say later in this chapter, when confronted, that they’ll give Ron a discount on the Nosebleed Nougat, and then they reveal that there’s not currently a cure for it, and that you shrivel up and die from blood loss. [laughs] So it feels to me like it’s a completely solid platform. If you’re going to confront your brother, or any of your siblings, make sure that you have the high ground. And in this case, Ron would.

Andy: It’s not exactly a gray area in the rules, is it?

Eric: Yeah, no.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: You can’t do this. This is pretty clearly bad, experimenting.

Andy: Fundamentally wrong.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: But it also gives us insight that they believe that their futures lie outside the world of academic achievement, and they don’t have plans to return for their final year at Hogwarts. And this made me think, can we compare this to anything in the real world? And I thought a little bit about athletes who want to go pro early on. And is this a smart decision for Fred and George? Wouldn’t Molly want them to finish up Hogwarts, get a degree… assuming you get a degree when you graduate. And I thought, what about Harry stipulating that part of him giving them the money is that they need to finish out their time at Hogwarts?

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I don’t think Harry is the type of person who would make that type of stipulation. He just wants to see them thrive, and I think he sees that they are very talented people who potentially have a great future in this line of business, so why not give them the money when he doesn’t need it? So no, I don’t think Harry would need to make that stipulation. That said, it’s very disappointing for Molly, I think, that they’re going off on this wicked life doing something else.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: At least now. I’m sure she would be very proud of them later, when they’re successful as hell.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think I’d compare it to getting your GED, or your high school diploma in the States, versus taking the SATs, which are used to get into college, right? You don’t… the SATs were optional, the way that NEWTs seem to be optional, versus just passing. And it’s so interesting because I think this is the first time we hear that year seven is optional to pretty much everybody? We had long heard that there were seven years of Hogwarts, so I guess I just never knew that year seven seems to be a lot of independent study for NEWTs. But the reason it comes up in this chapter is because, of course, this year they’re going to be sitting their OWLs at the end of it, so it’s a nice bookend or punctuation, or looking forward, as far as academics, to have this kind of talk on the first day back.

Andrew: I wouldn’t describe year seven as optional, though. I think they are just going their own way.

Eric: Well, isn’t it?

Andrew: I don’t… is it?

Laura: Well, I mean, by year seven, you’re of age…

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: … I suppose it can be. Similar to the GED discussion – I mean, this varies depending on the state that you live in here in the States – but there is a certain age that you can opt to stop going to high school and take your GED. And what I find so interesting about this conversation regarding Fred and George’s education is it reminds me a lot of the state of education in this country – I don’t know if it’s similar in Australia, Andy – but they have really, on a state and federal level, eliminated a lot of the programs that would allow people to go into the kinds of trades that Fred and George are interested in, not just joke shops, but I mean things like being small business owners, or going to technical school to learn a trade, or something like that. We sort of have this mill in this country now where we’re trying to push everybody to go to college, and I feel like now at this point – and this is definitely a sidebar – we are seeing the repercussions of forcing everyone to go to college, because not everyone needs to go. And I think it’s actually pretty astute that Fred and George recognize that their career is not going to be defined by their time at Hogwarts, so I’m proud of them.

Andy: Absolutely.

Andrew: Yeah. And this idea, I think when the book was published back in 2003, is more radical than it is now, because even though, to Laura’s point, there is this push to “You’ve got to go to college,” there’s also a large trend in this country of pursuing your passion and pursuing side hustles and just doing what you believe. I mean, back in 2003 I think probably when we were all reading this for the first time, we were like, “Oh, wow, that is wild. There go Fred and George again with their crazy ideas of leaving Hogwarts early.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But now a new reader might be like, “Oh, cool.” Some people in the real world here go off and be Uber drivers or deliver for GrubHub or just find a passion through podcasting and pursue that instead of finishing school.

Micah: How millennial of them.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: [laughs] Thanks for the plug, Micah.

Micah: No problem; happy to oblige. But the reason why I thought about going pro, though, is because a lot of time athletes that are at the college level will go pro early because of financial reasons, right? And the fact that they have the opportunity to earn quite a bit of money if they’re of a certain caliber and are able to sustain at that professional level, and that we know the Weasleys are certainly a family that they don’t seem to have a lot of money, and so that’s just why that particular analogy came to me when I was reading through the chapter.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big risk for them and for the family.

Eric: On that point, my big thing here is with the money that they’ve been given, why is it not known…? And Harry has a real opportunity to come forward about this, but nobody betrays anybody. Fred and George don’t betray that Harry gave them the startup money for the joke shop. And so while Ron and Hermione are condemning their whole thing, it’s an open question that gets asked, and Harry does not… he still finds a way to not tell them, and he changes the subject. Why doesn’t he just come clean? Because I think he’d come off…

Micah: I mean, he ducks under the table, though. I mean, not only tries to change the subject. Because his face gets so red, and to me, I don’t think he wants to embarrass Ron, and I think that that is exactly what would happen, because we learned that didn’t they buy Ron a new set of robes over the summer with this money?

Andrew: Which is surprising. This must have… this is a lot of money they have to play around with if they can start buying their brother a new set of robes as well?

Eric: It’s kind of interesting. Well, they saw his dress robes last year. [laughs]

Andy: My feeling is that Harry at all costs does not want Mrs. Weasley to find out, and by extension, as soon as one person finds out, whether that’s Ron or Hermione, that’s going to filter back through to Molly, and that’s what Harry does not want to face at this point.

Laura: Bingo.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: So it’d be a confrontation?

Andrew: Yeah, because then Harry would be blamed for Fred and George going rogue and launching this devil business of theirs.

Eric: Oh, got it. Yeah, that makes sense.

Micah: Now, Cho shows up a little bit later on, and this was just… Ron goes so… I don’t even know how to describe it. Somebody else want to take this?

Eric: Yeah. I feel like Jo Rowling is starting to set up the relationship between Cho and Harry, because that comes to a head during this chapter, so that’s why she shows up. Harry is really touched that Cho made effort to come and see him or come and say hi. He, of course, blunders it right away by asking how her summer went.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: But he’s happy to not be covered in Stinksap at this point. So it’s kind of like… it’s a little would-be meet-cute if it weren’t for the fact that Ron… [sighs] ruins it.

Andrew: But also, the important moment here is Harry reflecting on why Cho came up to Harry when she probably shouldn’t want to see Harry right now, and he’s detecting some feelings from Cho, and that’s exciting.

Laura: Or at the very least that she doesn’t blame him for Cedric’s death.

Andrew and Eric: Yes.

Laura: She’s on his side. She’s not on the side of the Daily Prophet and the Ministry.

Andrew: Yeah. But I think this is one of those situations for Harry, too, where it’s like when you have a crush on somebody, you’re like, “Hmm, why did they make that move just now? What does it mean?” And you start reading into it deeply.

Laura: Right. “So you’re saying there’s a chance?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: There’s a chance here. Everything is awful, but there’s a chance with Cho.

Andy: There was a chance.

Eric: But Ron… I mentioned he blunders it; he straight out accuses Cho of not being a real Quidditch fan. There’s a meme on the Internet going around yesterday about not being a real Star Wars fan unless you’ve da-da-da-da…

Andrew: [laughs] Yes. Yeah, good timing.

Eric: This is Ron and Cho; so timely. But this term… I doubt it existed, especially in this context, in 2003, but it definitely exists now. Ron is a gatekeeper. He’s the worst Star Wars fan. He’s the guy going, “I liked it before it was cool,” or “You’re not a real fan because this, this, and this.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Now, it turns out Cho has liked her Quidditch team since she was six, but Ron makes it… Ron interrogates her, basically, and Harry even really is rubbed the wrong way by this.

Andrew: People love to brag about how long they’ve been a fan of… you hear this a lot in the real world when it comes to music. Like, “Oh, I was a fan of the band Fun before they blew up with their Some Nights album.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Or I’m sure some people probably did it with Harry Potter too. And it’s just like, can you find other meaning in your life besides bragging about how long you’ve been a fan? [laughs] And Ron is just being petty and silly here.

Micah: Clearly, I’m not a real Harry Potter fan, though, because I started reading after the sixth book came out.

Andrew: Yeah, you’re fake. I don’t even know why we allow you on this podcast.

Micah: Yeah, why’d you let me on the show?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: There’s also a component of sexism with this kind of gatekeeping as well. It’s something I have experienced as a woman; if I’m interested in a genre of something that tends to be male-dominated – like in this case with Cho, sports – having men come to me and be like, “Oh yeah, well, I’m going to quiz you about all the things about this, just to see if you actually know what you’re talking about.” And that really jumped out at me when rereading this chapter. I was like, “Oh my God, Ron, you’re being the worst right now. Just stop.”

Micah: Yep. And isn’t this also a little bit of an inadvertent wand block on Ron’s part?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Perfect.

Eric: He’s not being a good wingman, that’s for sure.

Micah: Right. One other thing I wanted to touch on from this was the bandwagon comment, right? We’ve been talking about this, the fact that you just jump on because the team is good, but I thought maybe J.K. Rowling was trying to tell us something more here, because as we’ll see… we saw in the earlier parts of this chapter with Harry’s friends not necessarily believing him, and we’ll see it more throughout the course of this book, where people jump on the Harry and Dumbledore bandwagon, especially once Rita Skeeter’s article comes out, versus maybe people jumping on that Ministry bandwagon.

Eric: I don’t know; it just seems like the term bandwagon, bandwagoners, people who are on it are less informed or are not authentic, being the genuine, true, authentic version of themselves. So I think at least with Dumbledore’s Army, when people switch bandwagons, it’s based on a lot having to do with being well-informed and better informed by Harry, and a lot of the people who joined Dumbledore’s Army later do it out of a real desire to improve their situation, because they understand how useless Umbridge’s classes are.

Andy: Yeah, for sure. And if you want to relate it back to Cho as well, you can look at Cho and Marietta, and that’s kind of the ultimate picking of sides, and you can see the consequences that obviously come from that.

Micah: So now let’s get to the worst day of classes for Harry in quite some time at Hogwarts. He starts things out with History of Magic. And question here was: When was the last time, thinking back to when we were in school, when there was a day of classes or a set of classes that we just couldn’t get through? Maybe we just told the teacher, “Hey, gotta use the restroom,” and then disappeared for the rest of the day. I don’t know.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Something along those lines. Maybe fake being sick.

Andrew: I definitely would, from time to time, miss a class, particularly in college. I mean, there were some classes, some courses that I just totally gave up on. [laughs] I was like, “F this; I don’t need this anymore.” But actually, in middle school, high school, I was a pretty good boy. I didn’t avoid classes. I just soldiered through them and still did really, really bad, like Spanish; I got a D in that class. Boy, that was bad.

Laura: Why? Why?

Andrew: Why?

Andy: That’s dreadful.

Andrew: Yeah, D for dreadful. Science, too; I just could not. I was just mentally checked out. I was just pleased I didn’t fail, because that meant I would have to do it over again.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: To me, it was an A.

Eric: Got to know the limits. Yeah, I’ve definitely had those days where you take the hall pass and you just kind of wander a little bit.

Andrew: Right, you just hang out in the bathroom for a half hour.

Eric: I mean, not to… there were people who I guess more intentionally ditched classes, and the teachers knew who those people were. But depending on the day, depending on how much sleep I got the night before, there were classes that I either slept through – overtly head down on desk kind of a thing, and the teacher gave me a side-eye later – or ones where I just was tuning out, or had to get away or go for a walk or stretch to stay awake, because it just happens. You’re 15; you’re 16. Your bodies are changing. Your energy levels are really super important, and it just fluctuates. That’s all it is. It just fluctuates.

Laura: I actually had a teacher in high school who recognized that, Eric, and at the start of our semester, he was like, “Hey, I understand you’re going to be antsy; you’re sitting in a desk all day. So if you need to get up and stretch, or you need to get up and just walk around or go get water, just do it.”

Andrew: Oh, that’s nice.

Eric: Amazing.

Laura: Yeah, and it’s a nice, small touch that recognizes the fact that, “Yeah, you’re teenagers, you’re pent up with energy, and we’re forcing you to sit in a classroom for eight hours a day.”

Eric: And teachers were always a little bit more lenient with first, second, and third period classes, the stuff in the mornings as well, for that same reason. We had to get up at, I don’t know, 6:30 in the morning to catch the bus, so it was kind of nuts.

Andy: Does it count if there was a big news story in the Harry Potter fandom and you wanted to get out of class to post it on a fansite?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Did that ever happen for you?

Andy: Because this happened many a time.

Andrew: Really?

Eric: How many times? [laughs]

Andy: “What? Book 6 is called Half-Blood Prince? Uh, can I use the bathroom?”

Andrew: “I gotta go.”

Eric: Here’s a question I have relating to Professor Binns, specifically. So Harry, I think, completely sleeps through this class, and Hermione is the only one who’s able to at least fake being interested. But the topic of today’s lecture is giant wars, and given how preoccupied Harry is – he won’t stop saying mean things about Grubbly-Plank – about Hagrid’s absence, shouldn’t this really interest Harry? Because wouldn’t this topic have extreme relevance? We, of course, know Hagrid is with the giants, treating with them because of their in the past gray area alliances with Dark wizards. This seems like it would be the most interesting class to sit in on ever.

Micah: Maybe.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It made me wish I could switch POVs to Hermione, because I know that he probably said something that indicated some level of foreshadowing about the events of later in the book with Hagrid and Grawp, and I know she was paying attention, so…

Andy: I’ve always taken umbrage, to use that word, with Harry’s reaction to History of Magic, because I feel like as someone coming from the Muggle world, I would be so interested in learning everything I could possibly want to know about it.

Laura: Yeah!

Andrew: I agree.

Andy: Even if it was dry and taught by a ghost that floats through the blackboard, I would still just want to soak it all up, and Harry could not give two hoots.

Andrew: And I think Harry would be interested if it weren’t for, as you say, just how boring Binns is being. And I think we’ve probably all been there, too; we have a class that we might be interested in, but the teacher’s delivery is just… ugh, terrible. It’s like a bad podcast too. Like, “Wow, I’m interested in Harry Potter, but these guys are boring, so I am out.”

Andy: Andrew, tell us when the Chamber of Secrets opened.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That probably was his most interesting class.

Eric: Okay, okay, this is definitely second most interesting then.

[Andy and Eric laugh]

Micah: But I think at this point, Harry doesn’t really have any clue where Hagrid is, so maybe if he had an idea, then he would be a bit more interested. He’s also having a really bad day, and it’s about to get a whole lot worse.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: And I do think it’s important to note that Harry really has no classes now that he enjoys, right? We just talked about History of Magic. He’s about to go to Potions, then he has Divination, and then he ends with a class that has really been his bread and butter throughout the course of the series, Defense Against the Dark Arts, and it’s now taught by Umbridge.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And so think about that. Given his state of mind already, now he’s being put into classes every single day, for the most part, with subjects and teachers that he could care less about and are boring the hell out of him, and call him names in some cases, including Snape, right? He’s talking about the OWLs, and straight up says that some of his students could be classified as being moronic.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: And he asks Harry, when he’s working on the potion later on in the class, and clearly sees that something’s wrong with it, if he can read. And there’s probably a nicer way to go about that than being such a dick, but that’s who Snape is, right?

Andrew: It’s so mean. And when you reread this book, you’re just reminded… or the series, you’re just reminded of how terrible a person Snape is. I’m sorry, but he’s not a good guy. He’s not. He’s done some important things, but he is a terrible, terrible person. You cannot treat children this way.

Eric: Agreed.

Andrew: This hurts them.

Andy: Totally agree.

Micah: And we had this email here from Emily, which actually might slightly disagree with what you said, Andrew.

Andrew: I know. Well…

Micah: Andy, do you want to read it?

Andy: Sure. So Emily says,

“Hey, MuggleCast. Regarding this week’s chapter, I noticed Snape chose the Draught of Peace, a potion to calm anxiety and soothe agitation, as the first potion to teach the students. I think this was intentional on Snape’s part, as he knows many of the students are probably feeling anxious because of all the ongoings with the Ministry, Harry, Cedric, and talk of Lord Voldemort being back. And the potion soothes agitation! It’s exactly what Harry needs right now! It’s the little details like this that prove to me that Snape is well-intentioned and is always trying to help his students and Harry, but unfortunately, can’t stop himself from being a dick in the process.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: This is an interesting observation, but I don’t think Snape was thinking of it that way. Does anyone agree with Emily?

Andy: I don’t want to give Snape credit.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, the thing is, what I love about Snape is he is so many shades of gray. He’s such a nuanced character that I don’t think – and this is kind of speaking of bandwagons – I don’t think that I would feel comfortable jumping on the bandwagon of like, “Ugh, Snape sucks,” or “Oh, Snape is actually a good guy.” I think he absolutely falls in the middle and moves along that spectrum throughout the books. And I think this is just an example of him picking a really difficult potion to start the year off with, as Harry notes in the book, and then using it as an excuse to shame his students for not being better at the subject matter. That said, we also learn that he has really high expectations for his OWL students after the fifth year, so maybe it’s also evidence of him being a good teacher.

Eric: But ultimately, you wouldn’t just put instructions on a faraway blackboard that Harry has to squint and see and expect the entire class to get it. Wouldn’t it be easier, with your hour and a half time, to go step by step on potion-making, as a teacher of potions? I’m thinking of like a Julia Childs cooking show, but… or any cooking show.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Eric: “First you glaze the turkey, then you set the oven.”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: It’s step by… if Snape was that concerned about Harry missing part B of step 3, he should have brought the whole class to this, because these students are supposed to be learning to make potions. They’re not supposed to be getting made fun of mercilessly when they make accidents. This is about being a student. You’re going to make accidents, okay?

Micah: So I think how you just framed it, though, is in complete contrast to the Defense Against the Dark Arts class and how that starts, right? So Snape has an expectation that he’s been teaching them for four years, that they should be able to follow directions and put together a potion, versus Umbridge’s class, where she’s like, “No, you’ve just had a bunch of kooky teachers over the course of these last four years. We’re going all the way back to basics. You don’t need to know anything practical.” And so Snape, though… it’s hard for me to jump on the bandwagon of him being a good guy, because when you see moments like this, he’s just treating his students like absolute crap, and I think he has a superiority complex in these moments where he’s the teacher, they’re the students, and clearly he knows more than they do. But he does have… I think the one quality I would say that’s good about him as a teacher is, as Laura said, he does expect a certain level of quality from his students and a certain level of performance from them, and if you don’t meet that, then he’s going to call you moron.

Eric: He has a lot of knowledge. We know, especially from the next book as well, he knows potions inside and out. He knew exactly what step Harry got wrong; that’s super impressive. I will never not be impressed by how well Snape knows potions, but his approach is all wrong. I’m sorry. It just is.

Laura: Oh, of course. I am curious to know, though… I mean, we see these books from Harry’s point of view, and clearly, as Emily mentioned in her email, Snape is a dick. There’s no getting around that; he definitely is. But I wonder if Harry always has his perceptions of Snape turned up to a ten, and how that could differ than maybe a third party, outside perspective of the classroom.

Andy: So you think there’s possibly some Snape confirmation bias going on.

Laura: Maybe, yeah.

Eric: You look at a Goyle’s potion – or was it Crabbe’s? – later; they say that it was just so much worse than Harry’s, but yet, Snape goes over to Harry and makes an example out of him, and asks him, “Can you read?” Like, come on. There’s definitely… I think there’s an opportunity for some bias here, but I think on the whole, Harry’s perception of things appears to be pretty accurate, especially that Snape completely disappears his potion and doesn’t even let him turn it in for a B, or if Andrew is taking Spanish, a D grade.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But I’m going to… I’ll play devil’s advocate to that, though. And you see this a lot from, let’s say, coaches, right? They ride a certain player really, really hard because they expect a certain level out of that player, and they know that that player is capable of achieving so much more. Maybe it’s Snape saying, “Harry, pay attention to the details. Concentrate. Focus.”

Eric: Interesting.

Laura: And we see him really pushing that later in this book, right?

Eric: Occlumency.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: I also found it interesting that Snape removes the potion with an Evanesco, because as we learned from Pottermore in the past year or two, that spell was used by students to remove their poo because they would evidently poo on the floor and then just spell it away.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Or on themselves.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Eric: You guys, why is Pottermore no longer a site? Gold. Comedic gold lived there.

Andrew: [laughs] But I just… Snape surely knows this, so he must also get pleasure out of Harry’s potion going to the same place as where everybody’s poop is.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Not really sure how to transition off of that, but I’m going to try.

Andrew: There’s no way.

Micah: There is no way. All right, so now it’s time for wands away, books out. Probably the… no, definitely the worst professor to ever teach at Hogwarts.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And this was definitely… I know we talked a little bit earlier about how this was the meat of the chapter, but there’s just so much that went on within these pages, and there’s so much subtext to talk about. But I wanted to start by… Umbridge says that the teaching in this subject matter has been rather disrupted and fragmented, to the class, and I don’t think she’s wrong.

Andrew: No.

Micah: She starts out by making this statement that’s actually pretty true.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: Oh, yeah. And I don’t think that it’s unreasonable that, given that we’ve had at this school for the past four years very fragmented Defense Against the Dark Arts teaching, that the Ministry might want to step in and provide some oversight, but they’ve just way overstepped here. Because they’re not actually concerned with these kids’ education; they’re concerned with making sure that these kids stay compliant and don’t try to rise up against the Ministry.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, I think – and I’m just thinking of this situation from a parent’s perspective – it’s probably nice to see a Ministry official teaching their students after there was an imposter as the teacher the previous year. I think they want assurances that this position is going to be locked down, that they’re going to have a steady hand in this position, and from the outside, it looks like, “Okay, Umbridge, a Ministry official close to Fudge, sounds good to me.”

Eric: Yep.

Andy: Do you think Dumbledore perhaps has a responsibility to the parents to let them in on the fact that there’s possibly a hunch that this thing might be jinxed and has been for some time?

Andrew: Yes! Yeah.

Andy: People have to be questioning it.

Andrew: But this is something he conveniently lets slide because maybe it’s a little embarrassing; maybe he doesn’t truly believe in the curse; maybe he thinks it’s going to be cracked really soon, once this second Voldemort situation is taken care of.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, as of this point, you have half of the wizarding world refusing to acknowledge that Voldemort is back, so I’m not even sure they’re well-primed to be able to accept something like the Defense Against the Dark Arts position being cursed, especially since it was cursed by Voldemort.

Micah: She goes on to say that “The constant changing of teachers, many of whom do not seem to have followed any Ministry-approved curriculum, has unfortunately resulted in your being far below the standard we would expect to see in your OWL year.” Is there Ministry-approved curriculum? Is all of the curriculum at Hogwarts approved by the Ministry?

Andy: It’s a good question.

Eric: I feel like clearly there are certain subjects where you need to be at a certain… Transfiguration, for instance, which is taught at least the first five years, that you need to be able to be doing more complex transfiguration each year. So I feel like that’s what it is. But the actual teaching of lessons is obviously up to McGonagall, where she wants to start. I feel like, yes, the teachers set their own curriculum in a huge way, but the Ministry surely would provide guidelines.

Andy: So perhaps we can’t give Snape any credit for assigning that potion. Perhaps that’s the OWL year, “This is what you do first up, love it or not.”

Micah: To that point, though, I could understand going back to basics and just doing some introductory lessons to start the year off, but I think taking that approach for the entire year for fifth year students just doesn’t seem right.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Andy: One thing that we learn in this chapter is that Umbridge has an unusually short wand, and one of the things that Jo wrote about… one of the better essays she wrote about, rather than the poo room stuff…

[Everyone laughs]

Andy: … is that people that have unusually short wands… or those types of wands will usually select witches or wizards whose character has something lacking.

Andrew: Huh.

Andy: Which is quite an interesting thought.

Micah: That is.

Laura: Yeah, especially considering… have we ever heard of anybody else in the series who’s noted as having an unusually short wand?

Andrew: Hmm. I’m doing some googling.

Laura: I feel like she’s the only one.

Eric: Not wand, but fingers. Both Umbridge and Peter Pettigrew have short fingers, and both of those characters, their lack of magical talent is compensated by basically dirty deeds. So what Umbridge did with the Dementors, what Pettigrew did betraying the Potters to Voldemort. People with a lack of magical talent who are witches and wizards are evil, I guess.

Andrew: I’m looking at a list, and it looks like Umbridge has the shortest in terms of major characters. The second shortest was Sir Cadogan, at nine inches.

Micah: He was also in this chapter. Very brief, but he made an appearance.

Andrew: It’s the chapter of short wands.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Umbridge put up the course aims on the blackboard, and whoever put this font in here did a very good job of showing what it probably looked like.

Andrew: Oh, thank you.

Micah: Good job, Andrew.

Andrew: I did something that I never do. It’s a “New year, new me,” that type of thing. I’m actually reading the physical Harry Potter book for this chapter, and I’d forgotten all the fonts that they use for moments like this. And now I’m going to stick with this physical copy, because it’s just way more fun than the ebook.

Eric: The eBook doesn’t contain the fonts?

Andrew: No!

Eric: Does it contain the chapter art?

Andrew: Yes. And by the way, I feel like I would like a short wand. Wouldn’t it just be easier to carry in your pocket?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It just seems more efficient. More portable.

Eric: No, you’re right. The 13 and 14 inch wands that we see… if you look at the movies, a lot of the teachers and things have these ridiculous – especially McGonagall – ridiculously long wands. It’s like, where does she store that?

Andrew: No, thank you. Ron’s is 14 inches? Wand number two at least is. Oh my gosh, no thank you.

Laura: It means he has a lot of character. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, actually, he didn’t like it, because wand number three, nine and one quarter.

Eric: Huh.

Andrew: That was Peter Pettigrew’s wand.

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: “A lot of character.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Also a lot of pain, carrying that thing around. Anyway.

Micah: These course aims are not all that exciting. Just to run through them really quickly, “Understanding the principles underlying defensive magic,” “Learning to recognize situations in which defensive magic can legally be used,” and “Placing the use of defensive magic in a context for practical use.”

Andrew: And how to get a shorter wand. They’re better, y’all.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: The only part of this that interests me is the “legally” aspect. There seems to have been… we obviously touched on this last year by being taught the Unforgivable Curses, but understanding where magic fits in with society and with the laws and rules of society is a useful tactic or thing to know. You don’t need to spend all year on it, but again, figuring out when to use a spell is sort of important, but…

Micah: Right, like when you get attacked by Dementors.

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: But Hermione notices that there’s a big thing missing here.

Micah: Yeah, she speaks up, and Harry actually notes that it’s the first time, really, that he’s never seen her open up a book in class and be reading and doing what she’s supposed to be doing. She keeps her hand up for quite a long period of time, till the point where the entire class notices what’s going on. And she challenges Umbridge a bit, to which Umbridge responds, “Are you a Ministry-trained educational expert?”

Eric: Is this as bad as “Can you read?”

Micah: Yeah, I think it is, actually.

Andrew: I don’t think it’s as bad, because Harry absolutely can read, whereas Hermione is definitely not a Ministry-trained educational expert.

Eric: Right, but Umbridge knows that. She’s just…

Micah: But it’s rude.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s rude.

Eric: It’s very… it’s a good character moment for Umbridge, because rather than explain what the thinking is or stress that all this care has been put into it, she is going toe-to-toe with a 15-year-old.

Andrew: Yeah, and I don’t actually even believe that the Ministry has these trained educational experts, right? Because…

Laura: Well, I think they have people that they call trained educational experts.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Whether there’s any actual qualification there is up for debate.

Andrew: But do we believe the Ministry actually sat down and was like, “Okay, what do we actually need to do here for the Defense Against the Dark Arts class at Hogwarts?”

Laura: No.

Andrew: No, yeah. This was probably just Umbridge coming up with this plan to clap back at Harry and Dumbledore during the trial.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. The Ministry’s sinister agenda to disarm an entire year – or actually, all seven years of students – during this year is very apparent, and it’s just weird because Umbridge wants to come across as everybody’s friend. I think she even said either in this chapter or in the opening speech, “I am your friend.” But she even says, “I do not wish to criticize the way things have been run in this school.” She absolutely does, by the way. [laughs] She even says “extremely dangerous half-breeds” when talking about the previous teachers. She’s just…

Micah: But is she wrong?

Eric: She’s a fake person. That’s the problem that I have. She’s a fake…

Micah: Yeah, of course she’s fake, but is she wrong in saying that they’ve been exposed to extremely dangerous half-breeds?

Andrew: No.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, their classes all take place – or at least, Defense Against the Dark Arts takes place – in broad daylight, and during Lupin’s time of the month, he is sequestered to the Shrieking Shack or his office, right? And also, Snape brews him that potion every month, so there’s a lot of context that she’s missing here. And it’s always really interesting to think about these real world comparisons, because I think even on this show, we’ve talked about the comparisons between werewolves and other disenfranchised groups of people, like people with HIV/AIDS. There was a time not so long ago where if you had HIV, you were discriminated against in certain job sectors, in particular teaching, and it was the same thing if you were gay. There were a lot of anti-gay groups out there questioning whether or not a gay person was equipped to teach children safely, and I feel like this is very much more akin to that than it is her being concerned for the safety of the children.

Andrew: Yeah, definitely.

Micah: Yeah, she’s a purely vindictive individual, and we’ll learn a little bit more about her later from information that was on Potter-no-more.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: But she also references the fact that her predecessor performed illegal curses in front of the students, but also on the students. And I think she has more context there than she does into Lupin, because I would assume she knows the history of what happened with Barty Crouch, Jr. and Mad-Eye Moody, just given that she works directly for Fudge. But Parvati raises a really great point about the practical nature of their OWLs, and this goes into how they’re being educated. So are they just expected to show up at the end of this year and perform a spell without having practiced it in any way? What’s the comparison here to, let’s say, the real world?

Andrew: Yeah, I don’t know about a real world comparison, but this is the first major crack in Umbridge’s defense, and you just feel your heart sink for these students. I mean, I’m sure they’re feeling that same way, because knowing that they aren’t going to be able to practice spells in what used to be one of their more fun classes, and then seemingly being set up for failure later in the year, is heartbreaking, especially for those who do believe that Voldemort is back, because you’re seeing a Ministry-approved class suddenly block you from preparing for what lies ahead. They’re actually setting you back.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a huge crack in Umbridge’s thing, the fact that the OWLs will have a practical component, and Umbridge has to tell the whole class that she feels a theoretical knowledge is sufficient, and it’s just clearly not the way the wind is blowing. It’d be like if you’re learning CPR, but… did you guys have to do a First Aid CPR class, and on the dummy?

Andy: Yeah, I had to do that.

Micah: Yes.

Laura: Nope.

Andrew: I didn’t, so no one be alone with me, because you’re going to be in trouble.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh, we did this in high school in health class. They brought in a dummy, because when you’re performing CPR, you obviously need to know where the heart is, and it’s not where you think it is. I mean, it’s not far off, but there’s a very specific you have to find. The sternum… there’s a very specific soft spot on a human body if you’re performing CPR, and the fact of the matter is, if you did this without a dummy, and if you just read where… it’s like the Heimlich Maneuver. You really need to know where on the body this is, and if there’s no practical experience, people are going to die. So I thought that was a good comparison.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I also thought of comparing it in the wizarding world to potions, right? If you’re showing up to make potions and you’ve only read about how to make it, but you’ve never actually sat down to try and make the potion, but then you’re being tested on how to make it, it would just be probably needing some Evanesco at the end.

Eric: We need a HelloFresh for potions.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Step by step guide.

Micah: That’s why I thought it was just… it seems like Umbridge is setting her students up for failure here, and I think it would be a really bad reflection on her as a teacher if they’re all showing up to their OWLs at the end of this year, and there’s a practical portion of this examination, and none of them know how to cast a Patronus Charm or something to that effect.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a really great point, and it makes you wonder why Umbridge is okay with that. Maybe she only intended on being here one year. It doesn’t matter how the students do in their OWLs because she’s going to be out of there anyway, and she won’t have to face the music when they do badly and maybe Dumbledore or the Ministry is like, “Hey, why did they do so bad? Weren’t you supposed to fix things? Make things better? Was the imposter better than you? Was the wolf better than you? The werewolf?”

Andy: Though, I think in the end, she just doesn’t care about parent/teacher interviews. She wants to subjugate the students, accelerate her position in the Ministry, and act as Fudge’s mouthpiece.

Eric: Pretty succinctly put.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess. It still doesn’t look good on her, though, if these students are coming out of this course worse off than they previously were.

Micah: True, and it’s also mentioned in her Potter-no-more write-up that she was often passed over for positions of responsibility at Hogwarts, so she really – and I’m assuming that’s prefect, Head Girl, things like that – so she’s probably looking at this as an opportunity to really dig in and give it to Dumbledore and others at Hogwarts.

Andy: Yeah, she’s definitely got a personal vendetta as well.

Eric: So interesting.

Andrew: I like that you just keep saying “Potter-no-more” casually. That should be a new rule on this show. We all just say “Potter-no-more,” not that other word.

Micah: I’m fine with that.

Andrew: Cool. Deal.

Micah: So Umbridge tells the students after this back and forth, “If you are still worried, by all means come and see me outside class hours. If someone is alarming you with fibs about reborn Dark wizards, I would like to hear about it. I am here to help. I am your friend.”

Eric: There it is.

Micah: So this is to your point, Eric, earlier about her just wanting to be all buddy-buddy with the students. Really what she wants is control. She wants knowledge. She wants to keep tabs on what’s going on. She wants to hear about any rumors that may be being spread by students, particularly Harry. And Harry gets into it with her, which I think we were all kind of expecting. In fairness to Harry, look, he’s had a really bad day.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I know I said that earlier, but just think about the day that he’s gone through since five minutes after waking up, up until this point. And I think, though, he started to talk about something that a lot of the other students were very interested in hearing about, and that’s what happened to Cedric.

Eric: I’m surprised, I guess, that it catches Umbridge so off guard. I mean, clearly she doesn’t have any experience with students and how children can be stubborn, because Harry is a masterclass in that. She does not have a prepared line – even having come from the Ministry, a prepared line – about Cedric Diggory’s death. She’s able to stumble and say, “Oh, it was a tragic accident,” but there’s really no alternative fact here about what happened to him, and it’s a wonderful foothold for Harry’s argument and for the rest of the class to kind of rally around Harry on.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. It’s a great moment. It feels good to see Harry do this, even though he is getting himself in major trouble. But it does also make me wonder what the official Ministry line is, other than it being a freak accident. Like, what specifics can you give, if any? There aren’t any, but are they making them up?

Eric: It seems easy. You could blame the Triwizard Tournament. The fact that the Triwizard Tournament hasn’t been happening for a thousand years or something crazy at the beginning of Book 4 is because people kept dying, so you could easily blame the maze or the sphinx. Like, “Oh yeah, the sphinx stumped Cedric Diggory to death with its riddle.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Oh, yeah, he was eaten by some shrubbery.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Or, “Oh yeah, he was Evanesco‘d accidentally when Filch was cleaning up the maze.” [laughs] Give some specific details; they deserve that because one of their fellow students died, and one way to cope with this is to know the truth so they can begin to move on. Because then all these students are probably wondering like, “Well, what did happen? And can that happen to me here at Hogwarts? This place that is a security nightmare?”

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That is the new clip created by our listener Lyndon. Thank you, Lyndon, for that little sound effect thing. [laughs]

Micah: I like that. Yeah, and it’s surprising because this is the moment that gets him in trouble, versus when he says Voldemort’s name, which only got 10 points from Gryffindor, so I mean, I’m just surprised. I would think Voldemort’s name would carry a little bit more cachet than 10 points, but… all good.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

Eric: She’s testing the waters.

Andrew: Well, every time he says it, the points should be doubled, so the first time 10, and then it’s said a second time, right? So that time should have been 20.

Micah: So Harry ends up getting detention, which in the back of my mind I think was Umbridge’s intent all along, and she sends him with a note to go see Professor McGonagall. And upon reading the note, I thought we get what is possibly the best line in the Harry Potter series, when Professor McGonagall says to Harry, “Have a biscuit, Potter.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And it’s just with everything that’s gone on in this chapter, all the mental aggravation that Harry has been put through, it just puts a little bit of levity on the chapter. She’s just like, “Sit down. Relax. Have a cookie.”

Andrew: Yeah. And it’s good to know that somebody is on Harry’s side – a teacher in the school is on Harry’s side – because after how badly his day has went, you don’t expect it to get any better.

Eric: Right. But she’s able to… I think she’s able to break through to him a little bit by stressing how careful Harry has to be. Harry knows that she’s on his side, but she’s also trying to impress upon him the seriousness of his being so bold. And she says words to that effect; she just really… she’s like, “I need you to be way smarter than you are,” basically.

Laura: Yeah, “Pick your battles very carefully.”

Eric: Yep.

Andy: I just love that the biscuit is called a Ginger Newt as well.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah! The second time “Newt” is brought up in this chapter. I think between those two references to the NEWTs and then the Ginger Newt and then J.K. Rowling naming a character Newt, she really loves the word “Newt.”

Andy: I presume that’s a play on Ginger Nut. Is that a biscuit that you have in the States? Or a cookie? The Ginger Nut?

Andrew: No.

Andy: That might be an Aussie/Brit thing.

Laura: We have Ginger Snaps.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: I wonder if they’re the same thing.

Andy: A Ginger Nut is a biscuit that you might dip in your foreign tea, as it were.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, you could do that with Ginger… I bet they’re the same thing, or at least similar.

Andrew: They look the same. I’m googling.

Micah: What was your reaction while listening when we were talking about foreign tea?

Andy: [laughs] Honestly, I knew straight away, and I thought, “Boy, there’s going to be some emails coming in.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Thank you for not adding to the pile.

Andrew: “These dumb Americans.”

Andy: No, I figured you had it covered.

Andrew: [laughs] We like learning.

Laura: It’s not as bad as reading this chapter for the first time, and from an American perspective, be like, “Why does McGonagall have biscuits in her office?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Was she just at KFC?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Was she just at Bojangles? Was she just at Popeye’s? Yeah, that was what I was thinking.

Andrew: Oh my God, yeah. Embarrassingly, even reading this today, I’m not thinking about cookies. I’m thinking about KFC biscuits.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Southern style.

Andy: So what is the biscuit in the States? Is that what we would call a scone?

Laura and Micah: No.

Andrew: It’s like a little piece of bread.

Eric: It’s salty.

Laura: It’s salty and kind of flaky. You eat… it’s savory.

Andrew: You put butter on it.

Andy: Look, it sounds tasty. If Professor M. offered me one, I’d be into it.

Laura: Oh, heck yeah.

Andrew: We were also talking to Andy about White Claw before the show. So Andy, come over here. We’re going to have some White Claw and American biscuits.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: We’ll culture you, Andy.

Andy: Sounds wonderful.

Micah: Yeah, so the chapter really wraps with McGonagall giving Harry some important advice to be mindful of his actions, as we just spoke about, because it’s not just like he’s acting out in front of Snape; he’s acting out in front of a professor who has a direct line to the Minister of Magic, and that is a major, major problem. And she does shout out Hermione for being astute and paying attention, which she does all the time anyway, but Hermione is really important, I think, in this chapter, and she shines through at a number of moments. But before we close out the chapter, wanted to talk a little bit about Umbridge. There is quite a write-up – and thanks to Andy for catching this – on her and her family over on Potter-no-more, also known as WizardingWorld.com, just so people can reference it if they want to. And it really dives deep into who she is as a person, as well as her family, and it gives a lot of insight into why she is the way she is, and I encourage listeners to go check it out. We’ll probably bring up a number of these points, though, throughout the course of our discussion of Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Guys, you know what I just realized? PotterNoMore.com is available, and I am so buying it right now.

Laura: What?!

Eric: Buy it.

Laura: Do it.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Holy cow.

Eric: That is a blatant oversight on everyone.

Andrew: I’m buying it. Nobody beat me to it who’s listening live.

Micah: Andy, can you get the .au version?

Andy: [laughs] Yeah, let’s get all the countries. Who’s getting .nz?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I’m going to buy this. I’m just going to… if I can redirect it for free, I’m just going to redirect it to Harry Potter Fan Zone for a little while.

[Everyone laughs]

Andy: That’ll get the servers going again. It’s been 15 years.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: This is great. I actually would have assumed that Pottermore would have bought PotterNoMore.com. [laughs] I don’t know why, but…

Andy: Are you just getting me a lawsuit, Andrew?

Andrew: [laughs] “We want that domain back.” You know what? No, they bought… they stole HarryPottersHouse.com from me, so I’m taking this and I’ll go to court over this one. If they want this, they can give me back HarryPottersHouse.com.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Okay, time for the Umbridge Suck count; we can add a bunch of moments to the tally here. Calling herself the class’s friend; that’s definitely one. That was sickening. Denying Voldemort’s return, saying nothing is out there. And then also, sidebar, just insulting Cedric’s memory by saying that Voldemort did not kill him. I mean, that’s terrible. If Cedric is looking down, I would be really mad that this is how the Ministry is handling this. So that’s three. Saying that they are all safe from any Dark wizard? That is not true at all and very dangerous to say. And then going excessive with the detentions for Harry. As we see in the scene with McGonagall, Harry gets detention every night that week, and she does something really terrible to him in the next chapter that lives with him for the rest of his life. In the Cursed Child, you still see the scars on Harry’s hands, which I was shocked by, that they would… okay, so maybe that’s true, and maybe J.K. Rowling intended those scars to be permanent, but then for the Cursed Child to actually paint them on Harry Potter actor’s hands every night? Like, wow. Talk about detail.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, seriously.

Andrew: So that’s five. So one…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Two…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Three…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Four…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: Five…

[bell clanging sound effect]

Andrew: … added to the tally today, and now we’re up to 16, unless anybody else had any others?

Eric: That’s good.

Laura: I think you covered it.

Andrew: Okay. And by I, I mean, I think Micah wrote these. I just wanted to give him a…

Eric: It was me.

Andrew: Oh, okay, Eric. I just wanted to give Eric a break. [laughs]

Eric: Thank you.


Connecting the Threads


Laura: All right, and we do have some threads to connect today between Order of the Phoenix and Prisoner of Azkaban. The largest and I think the most obvious theme that we can connect here is Defense Against the Dark Arts, and really how their first Defense Against the Dark Arts lesson of the year in Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix could not be more opposite. We had Lupin teaching very practically in terms of introducing students to the concept of a boggart and then teaching them how to defend themselves against that, whereas Umbridge is pushing theory with no clear base in the theory herself. She’s literally telling the kids, “Okay, open your books and read, and I’m just going to sit here at my desk and stare at you while you do.” So clearly, she has no background in it herself, because she’s not even helping to guide the theoretical education here. So these lessons could not be more opposite. The other threads that I found are smaller threads, but I think that they’re entertaining to consider. So there’s a couple of things with Harry and Cho. In Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 14, which is around the same pace in Book 3 as it is here in Book 5, Harry first notices that Cho is pretty. And he’s playing Quidditch against her in this chapter, but even so, she’s still kind to him, and even points out that there are Dementors on the pitch. Similarly, she doesn’t hold Ron’s tactlessness against Harry in Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12. So even though in Book 3 they’re Quidditch rivals, she’s still helpful to Harry, and even though here in Order of the Phoenix, when she could very well have decided, “I think Harry knows more about Cedric’s death than he’s letting on; I think he might have been responsible,” instead of jumping on that bandwagon, she is clearly being on Harry’s side, even though Ron is being a wand block.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Then we also have some points with McGonagall and Hermione. So in Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 11, McGonagall confiscates Harry’s new Firebolt after Hermione reports it, and Harry and Ron are very, very upset with her for this. In Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, after Harry sort of regurgitates Hermione’s interpretation of the Sorting Hat’s new song, McGonagall remarks that she’s at least glad Harry listens to Hermione, and I think this shows progress for Harry in terms of really seeing how important and how correct Hermione is a lot of the time, and he’s getting praise for it from McGonagall. And then finally, I noticed some differences in terms of Hermione’s class load and her interpretation of it. So Fred and George tease Hermione that the fifth year will be her worst course load yet, and they tell her that she’ll be begging for some of that Nosebleed Nougat once she starts getting into her courses, which made me think maybe they weren’t paying attention to her third year, when she was literally taking every single class she possibly could and had to use a Time-Turner to make all of her lessons. To illustrate that, if we look at Prisoner of Azkaban Chapter 13, Hermione is overwhelmed to the point of breaking down into tears and having to flee the common room because she has 400 pages she has to read by Monday, so I think that this also is representative of Hermione’s development and realizing that being a good student and being intelligent and witty does not mean that she has to take every single class and completely overload her plate. So those are our threads for the week.

Andrew: Awesome. Good work; thank you so much. And while you were talking, I became the proud owner of PotterNoMore.com, and it is already redirecting to Harry Potter Fan Zone.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Thank you, GoDaddy. You’re so quick.

Andy: Wait till I get Pottermore.net. I’ll send it to MuggleCast.

Andrew: [laughs] There you go. And it’s registered to the MuggleCast PO box, so Eric, stand by for some letters. Some cease and desists from Warner Bros. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, some good old C&Ds. Great. Thanks, buddy.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: It’s time now for the MVP of the Week. My MVP were the biscuits. Thank you, biscuits, for a much needed reprieve in this chapter, and now I know that you’re actually cookies and not delicious, warm, salted bread.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Why do you put on a southern accent when you talk about biscuits?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Because I’m thinking KFC. Kentucky Fried Chicken.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Southern Hagrid. Well, I’m going to give it to the biscuit maker, Professor McGonagall. She provided some much needed breath of fresh air at the end of this chapter, and it was nice to see the relationship between her and Harry that wasn’t necessarily teacher to student.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to the biscuit eater, Harry, for finally taking his anger out on someone who deserves it.

Eric: Speaking of deserving it, I’m going to give mine to the people who deserve biscuits, Fred and George, for not selling Harry out, not giving away his secret.

Andy: And I’m going to give it to somebody who has nothing to do with biscuits, but is always three steps ahead of the game, always there to question authority, and has the time to do her prefect duty correctly, and that is Hermione Granger.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: Love it.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: And now let’s rename the chapter. Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Toad-ally Owned.” Toad-ally, T-O-A-D.

Micah: Toad.

Eric: Nice.

Micah: I went with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “What a Day.”

Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Fight the Power.”

Eric: [laughs] Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “The Lie.”

Andy: Harry Potter in the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 12, “Umbridge Sins, Biscuit Wins.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Love it.

Micah: That’s the best one. Andrew, yours was good too.

Andrew: Pat really liked mine. None of you did, though. Thanks a lot.

Eric: It was great!

Andy: I liked it. It was toad-ally awesome.

Andrew: Oh yeah, there you go. Thank you.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: He just heard me say it and was like, “That’s great!” from across the room.

[Andy laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, or if you have a question about Chapter 13, email us, MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can go to MuggleCast.com and use the contact form there. You can also call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE, or send us a voice memo. Just record it using the Voice Memo app on your phone and then send it to MuggleCast@gmail.com.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, it’s time now for Quizzitch.

Eric: Yes, last week’s question: What characters from the original Harry Potter series have also been in both Cursed Child and the Fantastic Beasts series? There are two of them. Do you guys have any guesses?

Micah: Well, I would guess Dumbledore would be one of them.

Eric: Dumbledore is one of them.

Andrew: Hmm. A Niffler.

[Micah laughs]

Andy: Is it another teacher, perhaps?

Eric: [laughs] It’s McGonagall.

Andrew: Oh, of course.

Eric: Yes, Dumbledore and McGonagall are both in… yeah, because McGonagall is in Crimes of Grindelwald; let’s not forget.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Eric: So yeah, correct answers were submitted to us on Twitter by Reese Without Her Spoon, Kate Yang, Adriana Contreras, Miles Brown, Young Susie Blood, Jason King, Mary Lapacki, and Marissa Cameron.

Andrew: And Andy, of Harry Potter Fan Zone. What?!

[Andy laughs]

Eric: Andy from Harry Potter Fan Zone?!

[Andrew laughs]

Andy: It’s all going full circle. I’ve got a Time-Turner. I’m like Hermione; I’m going back to answer the questions to come on to give the questions.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: We should have him on the show sometime.

Eric: Yeah, seems like a cool guy.

Micah: People will think if you get Quizzitch right now, that gets you to co-host the show.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Okay, and then next week’s Quizzitch question is: What has Hermione been preparing over her summer holidays? There’s very specific things she’s been doing.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: And submit your answers to us over on Twitter, hashtag Quizzitch, at MuggleCast.

Andrew: All right, Andy, thank you so much for coming on today. It was great having you on.

Andy: Thanks for having me. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Andrew: Awesome. Yeah, we’ll have to have you on again sometime. And you can find Andy at HarryPotterFanZone.com, the award-winning Harry Potter website.

Andy: Also…

Micah: Or PotterNoMore.com.

Andy: … PotterNoMore.com, my new hub. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, or go there if you want to access it. You also just launched a new design, which looks great. And like I said to you before recording it, I love that it respects the original design that you had all those year. Good stuff.

Andy: Thank you. It’s been a passion project for a few months now, so I’m really glad it’s up.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, turned out great. And if you scroll down to the very bottom, you can see the badge from J.K. Rowling, the fansite award.

Eric: Aw, yeah.

Andrew: We would love if you joined our community today, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We have some new benefits that will be announced in the weeks ahead; we are very excited about them. And it is also our 15th year podcasting, believe it or not, and we’re going to try to do a special gift for our listeners since it is such a big anniversary. Also, don’t forget to follow us on social media: Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Username MuggleCast. I definitely recommend following us on Instagram; we’ve been doing some fun stuff over there, including with our story. I saw a really sad situation with the Harry Potter books last night at a party I was at, so I Instagrammed my frustration through the MuggleCast account. So we would appreciate if you follow us there, and you will stay up to date on Harry Potter news and what’s going on with the show. Thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Andy: And I’m Andy.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Micah and Andy: Bye.

Laura: See ya.

Transcript #447b

 

MuggleCast 447b Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #447b, Why J.K. Rowling’s Tweet Was Transphobic and Hurtful


Show Intro


Andrew Sims: Hey everyone, Happy New Year, and welcome to another year of MuggleCast. We’re excited to have you listening in our 15th year of podcasting, wow. Today we have for you a chat about J.K. Rowling’s controversial tweet with a friend of ours named Rori, who’s transfemme. We spoke to Rori about why the tweet was hurtful to trans people and their allies. No matter how you feel about the tweet, we hope you learn something from this discussion and just hear out our point of view. We actually recorded this as part of Episode 448, but it ended up feeling like an episode in its own right, so we are releasing this special installment of MuggleCast a day before your regularly scheduled episode. And now the interview. We are joined by Rori, somebody we’ve known for a long time. Hi, Rori.

Rori Porter: Hi there. How are you?

Andrew: Yeah, good. How are you?

Rori: I am doing absolutely wonderful.

Andrew: Good. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Rori: Yeah, I’m 31. I’m transfemme, which means that, in slightly outdated terms, I’m male-to-female transgender. I work in advocacy in LA; I actually just recently started a new position with the AIDS Healthcare Foundation.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Rori: So that’s what I’m doing right now. I also write online quite a bit. But just me as a whole, just kind of a nerd.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And like I said, we’ve known you for a while. You’ve designed some awesome websites for us, including back when Twilight was a thing; I think we had you design TwilightSource.com, right?

Laura Tee: Oh, wow.

Rori: Oh, God. Yeah, I did that. I at one point designed MuggleCast.

Eric Scull: Nice.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Which design was it?

Rori: It was real muddy. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh yeah, the brown one, yeah.

Rori: Yeah, yeah. It was a very rough-looking scrap of parchment or something. It’s certainly not to my design standard now.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, we all grow and change.

Rori: It’s not in my portfolio anymore. But it was for a very long time.

Andrew: Anyway, so back in late December, it’s the end of the year. We’re wrapping things up. We recorded two episodes of MuggleCast in advance just to get things out of the way. And then we all wake up one morning to this tweet from J.K. Rowling. It reads, “Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real? #IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill.” On its face, I think a lot of people read the tweet and was like, “Oh, okay, J.K. Rowling is back tweeting something political, whatever. That’s what she does all the time.” I think a lot of us have come to maybe tune out a lot of what she says, too, [laughs] because it just became so much at some points. But then we started hearing people in the LGBT community and the transgender community be like, “Whoa, I can’t believe she just tweeted this.” So Rori, can you tell us what is this tweet in reference to, first of all?

Rori: Yeah, and actually, this tweet is kind of loaded. This tweet is designed to have you look at it and say, “Oh, this looks supportive.” “Love whoever you like, dress the way you want, consenting adult…” That’s all designed for you to look at it and not know that it’s messed up. When you start digging deep into it, these are things that are said by TERFs in a lot of online spaces that are designed to pull people into their movement, so that you don’t notice that you’re being pulled in by hate. So it sounds completely reasonable to say, “Dress the way you want, love who you want to love,” but then the “Sex is real” comment kind of flips it on its head, because that’s implying that trans people think that sex isn’t real. It definitely throws us off. It’s not starting a debate from a point of common understanding. There’s no good faith here.

Micah Tannenbaum: Do you mind just explaining what a TERF is?

Rori: Oh, yes, a TERF is a trans-exclusionary radical feminist. This is actually a name that they originally created for themselves on Tumblr back in the great Tumblr discourse wars of 2012.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Rori: And when trans people started actually calling them TERFs, because they were definitely using it and claiming it themselves and very proudly saying, “I am a trans-exclusionary…” whatever, when we started saying that to them as well and using it back harshly, they decided that it was a slur against them. And now they call themselves “gender critical.” Gender critical feminists, or gender critical radical feminists. And this is another means of hiding the hate within their movement under a facade of wokeness.

Andrew: Part of this… she is referring to this trial that occurred, and she hash tagged, “I stand with Maya.” What was this trial about? And what was the ruling?

Rori: Yeah, that’s actually one of the really interesting things about this, is how mischaracterized this trial was, that Maya Forstater was not fired even. She had a contract that was not renewed. And what happened was, she was working in a position of advocacy, and this was in the UK, and her employer found that she had been going on to Twitter and doxing and harassing trans women, particularly trans women, and basically trying to make them get off the platform. And I don’t have complete verification of this; I’ve just heard it anecdotally. But she was apparently using a work email, so there were some consequences. And when her employer found out that she was doing this, they just decided not to renew her contract. There was no firing involved. They had every right to do that. And especially in the UK, this kind of speech that Maya Forstater engages in isn’t protected under their laws, so in no way were any laws broken. And in no way was anybody abused except for the trans women that Maya Forstater went on Twitter to try to knock them off the platform.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: And there’s something in the UK called the Gender Recognition Act, and so Maya Forstater sued to have her comments be viewed as protected philosophical speech, I believe, is what it was.

Rori: Right. Yes.

Eric: But what happened was on the day that J.K. Rowling tweeted, the judge released a statement that favored the employer and said that, in short, she would “refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate, even if it violated their dignity and creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating, or offensive environment.” And the judge said that approach “is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.” So this amazing judge said, “There is no place for that behavior, basically, in the realm of advocacy, in the realm of doing what you’re doing. The workplace is completely reasonable in not renewing your contract.”

Rori: Exactly. And in my position in advocacy, if I went into a foundation and started speaking against, say, the homeless population of Los Angeles, that would not be a good look for me, and I would be fired immediately because that is who my organization serves. And that is completely within the bounds of that organization to say, “You do not represent us. You are going online and you are trashing what we do; we don’t want to be associated with you.” And I think that’s completely reasonable.

Laura: Yeah, at the bare minimum, we’re talking about somebody creating a toxic and hostile work environment. And I think that it’s the right of any organization, business or otherwise, to say, “Mm, you’re creating a hostile work environment,” or “You have the potential to do that, based on your behaviors outside of work, when you have this very public-facing role intended for this kind of advocacy. We’re not going to work with you anymore.”

Eric: So not only does this judge say “There’s no place for this in democratic society,” but J.K. Rowling decides to then break six months – nine months? – of Twitter hiatus, and create this Tweet with the hashtag “I stand with Maya.”

Rori: And I think, ultimately, Rowling throwing her support here is extremely disturbing, because this isn’t just transphobia. This is a transphobic movement. It exists online, it very closely mirrors the alt-right movement and how they groom young people. They catch young feminists when they’re in college, oftentimes, when they’re malleable, when they’re willing to follow an authoritative voice. And that’s really what’s so dangerous here, is that this movement is very strong, especially on Twitter and Reddit, and Rowling giving any legitimacy to that movement is frankly horrifying.

Andrew: Can you tell us why this is hurtful to not only transgendered people but the LGBT community and why this so goes against what we thought J.K. Rowling stood for in her books?

Rori: I mean, from my perspective, this is something I was raised with. They caught me at a Scholastic Book Fair, I got the Potter cult at age 10. So this is something that I’ve lived with for most of my life, 21 years, at least, of a Harry Potter fan, and internalizing those stories and really feeling them deeply. And also finding Harry Potter to be a very grounding place when I’m in bad times and bad mental health spaces, and that’s something that has been taken away from me personally. I can’t necessarily speak for the entire community, but I do know a lot of people feel this way that something that was very precious to us, that was grounding and gave us foundation and taught us a lot, has been taken away from us by the very icon that we idolized.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: And it’s very hard to see people supporting her still. The discourse surrounding this has heated up to such an extent that my social spaces are uncomfortable to traverse through. Twitter is a hellscape.

Laura: And given the fact that J.K. Rowling has such wide influence, but particularly with youth populations, what’s the impact on trans kids of seeing somebody like this make this kind of comment?

Rori: I mean, I think trans kids are often in such a vulnerable state because we have to understand that when we say trans kids, we often mean trans closeted. These are kids who are sensitive and quiet, and you don’t necessarily know that something’s wrong until they’re gone. And that’s the problem I have with J.K. Rowling’s tweet, is that it’s so irresponsible toward these kids who are reading her stories and internalizing these messages, and then seeing her go and say that they’re invalid, that they’re not worthy. That is at such a formative formative age. When I was reading Harry Potter at age 10, if I had any sense of my gender, that would have been absolutely horrible. I don’t know how I would have internalized that at that age. I think it would have been fairly devastating to my psyche at that age.

Eric: There’s a direct reply to Rowling’s tweet I’d like to bring up because I think it also touches exactly on what we’re talking about. Princess Lily on Twitter says, “I grew up as a trans child reading your books as an escape. I would often pick out names from characters to give to myself, before I ever felt comfortable in who I was. This decision, to support people that hate me, and want to do me harm. It brings me to tears… Why. Why?”

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Why? Why does J.K. Rowling use the hashtag “This is not a drill” to…?

Rori: Actually, that’s a good point. And that’s something I wanted to round about to eventually, is that “This is not a drill” is a TERF dog whistle for “We are literally going to war with the trans women.” That is what that means. And that is what those circles use it as, is that it is a call to action in a very, very visceral, violent way.

Andrew: It’s also just so hurtful because, like Rori, you said, we grow up with these books, and it teaches messages of inclusion, loving everybody. And then of course, J.K. Rowling has been an advocate for the LGBT community in several ways over the years. We’ve always wished that there were more gay characters present in the Harry Potter series; it never happened. Of course, she outed Dumbledore after the book was released. There was an opportunity, many people felt, in the Cursed Child; it didn’t happen there either. So we didn’t get what we really wanted. But she definitely seemed to be fully supportive of LGBT people, queer people on a whole, and then something like this… she’s just really pulling the rug out from under us.

Rori: And it does make you question all of her previous stances.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: Not to minimize some of her advocacy, especially with children across the world and making sure that kids aren’t thrown into orphanages; I think that’s really a valid and wonderful thing that she’s taken on. That doesn’t make this better.

Andrew: Exactly. On December 19, when she wrote this tweet, a lot of people in the fandom – people you probably follow – all came out and said, “This is not okay, what J.K. Rowling did, and we’re really hurt by this.” The unity within the fandom that day was really special. That said, there are some people, including probably a bunch of our listeners – we did get some emails from people who wrote in and were trying to defend J.K. Rowling – who were on her side in that, “Let her voice her opinion. It’s not a big deal. She’s done a lot of good in the world.” But the stance on this panel here is what she said was hurtful, and it was disappointing.

Eric: I cannot support somebody with that level of a platform who kicks vulnerable people while they’re down. I can’t do it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Same.

Rori: And just from my position – and this is an over-exaggeration of my place in society – but from the trenches looking at transphobia, I don’t see how people could continue supporting her and calling themselves allies. You have to pull your money. In our society, in our capitalistic society, one of the ways that you can vote best is with your dollar. And personally, the way that I’m moving forward is not by not engaging with the universe, not by not enjoying the Harry Potter stuff I already own, but by not paying further into it.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Yeah. And not to put too fine a point on it, but I was really taken by these comments and this whole event to really just remind myself that we as Harry Potter fans – or we do a weekly podcast on Harry Potter – as consumers of media and of this franchise and its global assets, everything, we’re in a constant dialogue with this. And really, this is true with any show, any book, anything that we engage with; we are constantly consciously choosing to pay for it and to invest in it. And you know what? This is a conversation where we can stop. We can stop buying these things. We can stop supporting these people whose views are so hateful. We can do it.

Andrew: Honestly, I’m still going to be buying things. Obviously, we’re still doing this podcast. Us here on the panel, maybe not Rori, we’ll be seeing the next couple of Fantastic Beasts movies and whatever comes next.

Rori: I mean, I’m looking up at my fourth edition of the Jim Kay Harry Potter illustrated versions. I’m not sure that I can’t not buy the fifth one.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, there you go.

Rori: I need to complete my set.

Eric: But it’s a struggle.

Rori: And that’s the balance that we’re dealing with right now, yeah.

Eric: But yeah, it’s an individual choice, and it’s all really, really difficult. But you guys, this is going to stop me from buying shit. Honestly, it will. I’ll see the movie; we need to talk about it on the podcast. I’m really not going to directly support JKR. I’m not going to buy the next Strike novel; I’m just not going to do it. I don’t care enough.

Andrew: How I’m going to cope with this is I think it’s time to separate the art from the artist. It’s about the fandom for me now, interacting with everybody through the podcast, going to fan events, seeing friends that I’ve known forever from time to time, socializing with them more, enjoying the stories that J.K. Rowling is writing. But I think it’s time to face the music that J.K. Rowling is a 50-something-year-old woman who has very different views and whose views may not change in our lifetime. And remember, this isn’t the first time that she’s suggested that she’s transphobic. She has followed people on Twitter who have a history of being transphobic. She has liked transphobic tweets. She also…

Rori: Yeah, and in her other books. She’s also had a few transphobic characterizations, particularly in the Robert Galbraith books, and I think in The Casual Vacancy.

Andrew: Yes, that’s true. She has also insulted the Native American community. She has been doing things that are very problematic. This was the most blatant of them all, though. To return to Twitter… the other thing is – this is getting more gossipy now – but why this? You were stewing over this so much that you had to go and tweet about it? Just sometimes I seriously wonder if J.K. Rowling has friends.

Rori: Well, part of this is, I think, this is the discourse around trans people that’s happening in the UK right now. The divide over there is much more volatile.

Andrew: But can’t she just text one of her friends, like, “I cannot believe what is happening with this trial”?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, that’s what I said to you, though, I think, Andrew. I don’t think that makes it any better, though. I mean, if she does it under this guise of just, “Oh, I’m going to text this woman who I’m supporting,” or “I’m going to find a way to reach out behind the scenes,” it doesn’t make it any better, because she still feels this way. And going back to book references, I don’t really know what to make of it, but let’s not forget that in Prisoner of Azkaban the way that Neville deals with his boggart is to imagine Professor Snape in his grandmother’s clothes. So I don’t know if there’s any kind of subtext going on there as well.

Rori: It’s definitely a little something in there, yeah. That definitely betrays a little… the “man in a dress is funny” trope definitely was probably the first thing that betrayed her. We just didn’t notice it because we were kids.

Micah: Right, but I just wanted to go back to… I think, Rori, you explained it really well, because when I first read the tweet, being completely honest, I didn’t really think much of it. I had to dig and quite honestly listen to other people’s responses and educate myself. But I guess…

Rori: That really is truly what’s so insidious about it is that to understand the tweet, you either have to already understand where she’s coming from, or you have to do some research. And a lot of people aren’t willing to do that, so they don’t see the problem.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: I personally found… you talked about how the language at the beginning of the tweet is intentionally misleading, and on its face, it does seem positive and inclusive. But to me, when I first read it, I was like, “Okay, so you think that being trans is just about dressing how you want?”

Andrew: Right. That also cheapens it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s so dismissive and so flippant that I was like, “Eugh.”

Rori: Yeah, that’s actually a really common thing to corner trans women about is like, “Oh, you have acrylic nails. Do you think that’s all being a woman is?” I’m like, “Yes. Yes, I do. Absolutely. 100%.”

[Andrew laughs]

Rori: “All my 31 years of life on this planet have culminated in my gender being acrylic nails.”

Andrew: Some people might grapple with transgender people, they may not understand it, including maybe some of our listeners. And the way I think of it and the way I explain it to other people sometimes, especially the older generations… a lot of them just don’t get it. Trans people are not as welcomed as gay people are in today’s society. And even 10, 15, 20 years ago, obviously gay people weren’t very welcomed, either. But the way I explain it to people is to think about somebody who has decided to come out as gay. They just have this burning feeling deep inside them that they are attracted to people of the same sex. And Rori, correct me if I’m wrong, but trans people feel the same way, that they just have this desire that they are a different gender. You can’t shake this feeling; it is just what is inside of you. It is a part of you. Nobody wants to have to go through the coming out process. It’s incredibly hard. But they do it because they know there’s no other way.

Rori: Well, that’s a huge thing, is that that’s a huge part of the trans experience for a lot of people. And then for a lot of people, the trans experience is being super confused about gender. I actually didn’t have a concept of gender for a long time; I didn’t understand it. I didn’t understand the binary nature of it. So when I found that I was attracted to men, I really was like, “I must be gay,” and then just went that direction for a while until I was like, “Oh, wait, this is not the path. This is not who I am,” and started unlocking a lot of issues. Because trauma also can freeze people’s gender identity in place and not really know what’s going on, so it’s really complex. And that’s part of why Rowling’s situation is so hard to look at, is because for a lot of us, this identity is really hard fought. This has come with a lot of therapy for me; I had to go through years of therapy to realize that I was trans. It was so repressed. So some people do definitely have really emergent trans characteristics, like the kid who comes out at 3 really distinctly trans, but for a lot of us, it’s not that cut and dry.

Laura: It also seems, too, just… because I did my own research on this as well, just to really try and understand the full scope and the full context behind this tweet. And it seemed like a lot of, and they were women interacting with J.K. Rowling, who agreed with her, were also coming from a place of seemingly feeling threatened by trans women being considered women and having that distinction and that class assigned to them. I know you mentioned in the UK, things are a bit more contentious than here in the States. But is that something that you’ve seen as well?

Rori: I’ve definitely seen a lot of that backlash toward trans women wanting to be in women’s spaces. That’s actually happened to friends of mine in Los Angeles, who are comedians who went into a women’s-only standup space, and were not well received. So I’ve definitely seen that, where… and honestly, it’s usually cis white feminists who push back on this idea of trans women entering their spaces. They think that it’s a violation; I’ve seen that mentality come across quite a lot. Quite a lot. I’ve also seen it just passively directed at me, throughout my life, so it’s definitely real. It’s a little disconcerting because from my perspective, we need to be creating spaces that are fully inclusive, and making them completely focused on the uterus is really backwards.

Eric: I mean, it’s all a commentary against cis male toxic masculinity, right?

Rori: Right, and it tries to lump trans women in with that, even though we’re not men.

Eric: No. Exactly.

Andrew: So I was really expecting an apology from J.K. Rowling because the backlash was so huge, unlike ever before. And I mean, this was getting coverage everywhere. And this is typically what you see happen: The person who has gotten themself in deep trouble decides to apologize. And I thought that since even if J.K. Rowling didn’t want to apologize and the apology wasn’t authentic, I thought team J.K. Rowling would talk her into it…

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: … just from business perspective, because we’re talking about buying things now going forward. I think this hurts the theme parks. I think it hurts the play. This is awful for the play that’s putting on this nightly show. [laughs] I think it’s also hurtful to the movies and people’s interest in continuing to watch them. So I thought we would at least get a fake apology, but we did not even get that. And I think J.K. Rowling just does not care. It’s sad because she’s hurting people, and I think she knows she’s hurting people now, and she’s still not apologizing. That’s crazy.

Micah: What do you think is worse, though? Is not saying anything after making this comment worse, or is an apology worse?

Andrew: That she doesn’t mean?

Micah: Right.

Rori: Yeah, if we got an apology, it would definitely be a PR thing. It wouldn’t be an actual apology. So I don’t think that it would be received well by the trans community, to be honest.

Eric: But not even Warner Bros., not even several other people that she’s working with are issuing statements saying “I disagree with this.” I mean, a lot of the…

Rori: Oh yeah, I’ve been paying attention to even Harry Potter cast members to see what they’re saying.

Eric: See, Emma Watson…

Rori: I was very impressed with Emma Watson, but we need to hear from a few people.

Eric: Yeah, Emma Watson had a huge thing. So has Emma released a statement?

Andrew and Rori:: No.

Rori: Just has in the past supported trans people.

Eric: I mean, that’s the thing, is I want to see the Emma Watson rebuke of J.K. Rowling’s latest… or I just want to know that Emma called Jo and said, “Hey, Jo, not cool.” Because people… what Rori said, I think, is really important. How can you continue to support J.K. Rowling and call yourself an ally to LGBT people?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: I think that’s a question I struggle with.

Rori: I mean, me too, just as a trans person, because I’m not sure… I certainly can’t judge people for continuing to go enjoy these movies or books or whatever, when I’m still going to, in some way, engage in this content because I refuse to have it taken away from me.

Andrew: Yeah. So GLAAD said they reached out to J.K. Rowling’s people and offered to sit down with J.K. Rowling to educate her, and GLAAD said that representatives turned them down.

Laura: Ugh.

[Eric hisses]

Andrew: And not just ignore them, turned them down. And that is pretty shocking. Eric, you mentioned Emma. I think what has to happen… you said Emma needs to call her. I think that is exactly what needs to happen. Who could possibly change J.K. Rowling’s mind and educate her? She doesn’t want to listen to GLAAD. She doesn’t want to listen to Twitter. So somebody who is very well versed on this topic, who she knows, who she trusts… I think Emma is the perfect person. And maybe that has happened.

Rori: Actually, I would love to take this time to actually note that as a trans person, I have very limited platform and voice here. Even though this is something that affects my community and not yours, you guys have more power than I do as cis people, as cis allies, to benefit the trans community. And honestly, that’s what we need right now, is we need you guys to be doing this podcast.

Eric: That’s exactly it. Well, and that’s the thing about Emma; she’s still a straight presenting cis white female…

Rori: Yep.

Eric: … who would be correcting Jo on her beliefs. Because you know that Jo is intolerant enough that she wouldn’t listen to a trans woman on the subject, or a trans man. Jackson Bird wrote a wonderful article for the New York Times following this called “Harry Potter Helped Me Come Out as Trans, but J.K. Rowling Disappointed Me.” Huge, right? And these are the kinds of things… and in his article, Jack calls for J.K. Rowling to, like, “Hey, come talk to us. We really want to have a discussion.” And you just get the sense that it’s not going to happen. I mean, I did not expect to end 2019 with Chick-Fil-A up and J.K. Rowling down.

Andrew: Right, yeah. [laughs]

Eric: I did not expect that to be the last blunder of the year.

Andrew: And honestly, we put out that Decade in Review episode after this happened, and I just felt really crappy putting that out. Here we are celebrating the decade, and we talk about J.K. Rowling making some really nice comments and all that when the movie series ended. I was embarrassed to be a Harry Potter fan that week.

Rori: I mean, but who could predict that?

Andrew: I know.

Rori: I mean, our community definitely knew that something like this was coming. We didn’t know that it was going to be this blatant.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: But it definitely wasn’t… I don’t think anybody was expecting her to come out this hard, this firmly, in favor of TERFism.

Laura: And Rori, we’ve been talking a lot about the impact this has. You’ve also mentioned that as cis people, we have the platform to be able to confront people like J.K. Rowling about things like this. And I’m curious, from your perspective – because I think everybody would have a different take on this – but in your estimation, is there actually anything J.K. Rowling could do to regain trust?

Rori: I think that there’s a certain part of the community that she’s absolutely cut off forever. There’s some people who will just not trust an apology from her. I think I would have a hard time trusting her apology. But it would really depend on the nature of it; it would depend on how it was issued. Her words would be really important, because we’re dealing with a writer; she can seem sincere. So I mean, it’s actually really hard to say at this point. I don’t know if I would be able to take her seriously. Depending on her tone, just because this is such a history, that one apology wouldn’t actually be enough, I think. I think that it would take quite a lot of action on her part for the trans community, doing action within our community, to fix this. This is going to take some work on her part, or she’s just going to end up being lumped as a TERF for the rest of her life.

Andrew: I’m also thinking she’s just hoping in this 24-hour news cycle that we’re all just going to forget about it, but I don’t think we are. For the next few decades we’re just going to see J.K. Rowling from time to time pop up with some batshit political view on her Twitter account, and then we’re going to be like, “Oh, there goes Grandma again, losing her mind.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Anyway, what else is going on today?” I really think that’s what’s going to happen now.

Rori: And honestly, I think that’s the best case scenario for the fandom at this point, is just to cut the author off.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: I will continue to enjoy the stories that are produced, and it’s going to happen for decades to come. But I said earlier, I think now I am ignoring J.K. Rowling.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I don’t even…

Rori: Certainly not following her on Twitter.

Laura: Yeah. I actually have never followed her on Twitter.

Andrew: Oh, really?

Micah: Oh, I thought I started that trend.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, this was a happy coincidence for me. And it just so happened December 19 was my birthday, and I woke up to the Internet blowing up about this tweet, and I was like, “Jesus Christ, J.K. Rowling. What are you doing? Stop.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, we posted on MuggleCast the “Happy Birthday, Laura” post and then an hour later had to completely…

Andrew: “We stand with the trans community.”

Eric: Yeah, oh my God.

Rori: Well, honestly, I have to say that you guys posting stuff like that has been super appreciated because it lets me know, it lets the trans community know, where you stand immediately. I got on Twitter because of this, and I’ve only followed people after going through their profile and seeing that they commented something against J.K. Rowling before following them.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Nice.

Rori: In the Potter community, I want to see you make a stand one way or the other, so I know where you’re at.

Eric: That’s what J.K. Rowling taught us, right? I mean, make a stand, stand up for what you believe, be yourself…

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Absolutely.

Eric: That’s why in our tweet, we said, “You are valid.” J.K. Rowling was trying to invalidate an entire swath of oppressed people and marginalized individuals in a global community. And that, it’s unforgivable.

Andrew: And in this fandom, we’ve all got each other’s backs. We all are there for each other. We accept everybody. And that’s why this is such a problem, J.K. Rowling’s tweet. I came out to only Harry Potter friends, people I met through the fandom, in those early years. If I didn’t have the Harry Potter fandom, I don’t know how on earth I would have come out. I didn’t know any other gay people or gay allies in the late 2000s, the early 2000s, I guess I should say. The Harry Potter fandom was there for me, and nobody judged me, and that meant everything. Because when you’re first coming out, you need to put people on your team, so to speak. People on your side, so you can say, “Oh, okay, maybe now it’s time to come out to my parents, because I have enough people on the good team, on the people I’ve already come out to, so they’ve got my back if things were to go wrong.” You need those allies, and the Harry Potter fandom is just one big group of allies. And so for the leader, the creator of that fandom, to come out and be so transphobic and so blatant with it and just decide to tweet about it in the first place, it’s like, “Whoa.”

Rori: Well, and it’s so interesting to look back on that community that formed in the early days of Harry Potter that was so queer-friendly. It was actually really an amazing thing at the time, because like you, I didn’t have anything else like that.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: And it’s actually really poetic to think back on the fact that J.K. Rowling created her own detractors.

Andrew: [laughs] Right. You made us this way, J.K. Rowling!

Rori: And that’s actually one of the things that you look back, and like, “Oh my gosh, how much of that was just calculated because she wanted to have a fun message, a nice message in her stories? And how much of that was real?”

Andrew: Right.

Rori: It’s hard to parse out now.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Hypocrisy is not a good look on anybody, and we don’t need more of it in this world.

Andrew: All right, anything else we want to address here? Or Rori, anything else you want to say?

Rori: I just want to say this is super nostalgic, coming back on the show after… I was a teenager living in my mom’s house when I was on this show last time.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, man. Do you remember what episode that was?

Rori: I have no idea.

Andrew: I’m searching now.

Rori: I know that it was at a point when you guys were just going through the books and reviewing them chapter by chapter.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: Hey, that’s what we’re doing now.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: We’re still doing that.

Andrew: It was Episode 96 you were on, titled “More Shows, More Problems.”

Rori: [laughs] Nice.

Andrew: More tweets, more problems. That’s the title of this episode. [laughs]

Eric: Ugh. True.

Rori: And of a note, my old name is on that episode.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: So it’s available, but don’t go spreading it, folks.

Andrew: Got it.

Rori: But if you aren’t curious, it’s there. It was a whole meme.

Andrew: [laughs] If people want to learn more about trans people, or I don’t know, the LGBT community, are there any good resources you would recommend for further reading?

Rori: Yes, my favorite resource on the Internet is TransStudent.org, and they have a really wonderful visual representation of gender, sex, sexual orientation; what the differences are. Similar to if you’ve ever seen the Genderbread Man, this is the Gender Unicorn.

Andrew: [gasps] Yes.

Rori: And it is a wonderfully designed piece that helps people understand these complexities.

Andrew: This is great. Because gender is on a spectrum; it’s not binary. And the Gender Unicorn teaches you that, and the Gender Unicorn is so cute.

Rori: And that’s the thing that a lot of people don’t realize, that sex is different, gender is different, sexual orientation… these are all very separate entities that come together, and they mesh together, but they don’t necessarily feed off each other.

Andrew: Yeah. And you also wrote a piece on Medium; we’ll include a link to that in the show notes. It’s titled, “This Is Not a Drill: It’s Time to Cancel J.K. Rowling.” And there’s a whole discussion to be said about cancel culture, and I know you are typically not for cancel culture, but why did you say that? Why did you say she needs to be canceled?

Rori: Honestly, it’s because I woke up that morning and rolled over to “J.K. Rowling tweets…” and I was angry. And I wrote that piece out, and it was definitely a very honest, emotive, just anger that I put to the page. And there’s a little more nuance to my stance; I haven’t included in that piece that I’m not going to judge people for continuing to engage in this universe. I’m not actually telling people “You have to cancel J.K. Rowling or you’re not an ally. You suck.” That’s not the message I’m trying to actually portray, but that is kind of how people are reading that piece. I’m not editing it because I think that it is valid in its own right, and I think that it creates a really good discussion around cancel culture, and who we should be canceling and who we shouldn’t. Should we be canceling a teenage YouTuber? Or should we be canceling a 50-year-old white woman who is abusing her platform?

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: Right.

Rori: So yeah, that piece has actually generated more interest than I expected it to. It didn’t get picked up by Medium, but it has been shared in a lot of Antifa spaces, so it’s making its rounds. And I am happy with that. Because I think that even though I hardline the position that I do agree with, but I think it’s a little over the top, I think that it creates a really, really healthy discussion around cancel culture, around who should be canceled, around what we’re actually allowing our public figures to be doing without recourse.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, so we will include a link to that in the show notes, like I said, if anybody wants to read it. Okay, Rori, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate your insight and your time.

Laura: Yes.

Rori: Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you guys still doing this. How many years have you been doing this?

Andrew: This will be your 15th year.

Rori: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah, I know, right? [laughs]

Rori: That is nuts.

Andrew: Yeah. But yeah, it’s been great to talk to you again, too, after all these years. Under unfortunate circumstances, but…

Rori: I’m sure, yeah, there hopefully will be a better time to have me on in the future. But for now, this is where I need to be.

Andrew: “Can you believe J.K. Rowling’s perfect apology? Wow, she did it!”

[Everyone laughs]

Rori: I would love to be on for that episode.

Andrew: If she apologizes, we’ll definitely have you back on because I want to know how you interpreted it, so we’ll see.

Rori: Oh, yeah, I can’t wait to analyze that non-apology.

Andrew: [laughs] We’ll be analyzing it like it’s a Harry Potter book.