Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #289, North American Magic Deep Dive
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: This is MuggleCast, your Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts podcast covering everything about J.K. Rowling’s magical world. Welcome to MuggleCast Episode 289. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: And I’m Micah.
Andrew: So we have a lot to talk about this week, guys. [laughs]
Eric: Do we ever!
Andrew: I think we continue to get really lucky. We’ve just been too lucky over this past year. Every month there’s been something big to talk about. So the big thing we’re going to talk about today is J.K. Rowling’s various “History of Magic in North America” pieces, and later on in the show we’re going to talk about Cursed Child – the full cast got announced – and we’re also going to take some questions from some of our patrons, and we also have an interview with the creator and director and writer… so basically, the writer and director…
Eric: The everything guy.
Andrew: … yeah, of Severus Snape and the Marauders, the new Harry Potter fan film. It’s on YouTube; you can check it out, so definitely do that.
History of Magic in North America
Andrew: But anyway, before we get to all of that, let’s talk about the History of Magic in North America. J.K. Rowling released four pieces on Pottermore, getting everybody kind of primed for Fantastic Beasts. This was something we were kind of hoping about leading up to the movie. I was hoping she would publish a prequel that would show Newt coming over to America or something, but this is good too.
Eric: [laughs] So what were you guys’ general impressions, though, of the new information? Because this has been a long time coming, hasn’t it? I mean, from essentially completely ignoring the North American continent in the Harry Potter books to giving us these wordy, in four pieces reveals, it’s exciting to have something all of a sudden, isn’t it?
Micah: Yeah, I think so. I think the fact, and you touched on it, that for the most part – with maybe the exception of the World Cup – we don’t really get any sort of mention of wizarding in America. It’s completely absent from the Potter series. So the fact that we have this opportunity to learn more about our history, both in the magical and non-magical sense, I think is cool. And I know some people are generally just averse to anything that doesn’t fit into what we know from the seven books as being canon, and I respect that, but I also think that this is a really great opportunity for her to be able to expand the world and to tell the stories, and there’s so much that could be learned just simply from what is in these four pieces that have been put out. I mean, you could write stories just by themselves that fall within each of these different categories. There’s one specifically about wandmakers in North America, and you could probably tell stories just about all four of those people. So I think it’s great; it opens the door even more, and I’m glad that she is doing it.
Andrew: And Pottermore really hyped it up. They released it… before they even started releasing these, they announced, “Every day at 9:00 a.m. Eastern, you will get one new piece, Tuesday through Friday.” [laughs] And I guess they lived up to expectations. There was some disappointment amongst a sector of the fans who just can’t really get excited about new Pottermore content. We had a big discussion about this a few months ago.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Selina mentioned this, and she ended up writing a piece about it on Hypable, because she was… she really got…
Micah: Passionate.
Andrew: Passionate!
[Eric laughs]
Micah: It was a great piece, too; I think it made a lot of great points, but it’s coming from a probably completely different perspective than I would say a majority of our listeners.
Andrew: Yeah, the gist of it was, though, that reading these online, it doesn’t feel the same as consuming this new information printed in a book. That was one of the big factors. And I have to agree; I mean, it is a little weird to go on Pottermore and read all this, because it’s a very different experience than reading the Harry Potter books.
Micah: One thing I’ll say, though, is that these particular pieces that were released, I felt, were much more adult in nature than what we have come to know from the Harry Potter series. It didn’t have necessarily that fun, magical feeling to it, maybe with the exception when she gets into talking about the four wandmakers in the very last piece.
Eric: Right.
Micah: Everything was very much societal-based, political-based. There was a lot of conflict, and that’s something we can talk about. I felt the depiction of what was going on here in American history was very controversial, actually, and that’s a much different feeling and a much different position, even if you are sitting there holding a book, than what you are used to reading from her. I mean, there are certain political and social undertones that are in the Potter series – we’ve discussed them many times on the show – but I think the overall perspective was much more adult-feeling. Not to say in any way that it’s a children’s series – definitely not the case – but I just think that a lot of the themes that we saw here just had a completely different feel to them.
Eric: Well, the trouble is, she is doing sort of a history lesson. She’s catching us up on centuries of the beginning of America for wizards, and so it’s got to be, in a way, a little dull, or it has to include American history, meaning the First World War, for instance. I mean, these are things that she sort of has to touch on. And in the Potter books, the only equivalent in the books in-world is Professor Binns’s History of Magic, which Harry either sleeps through entirely or has terribly life-threatening issues happen to him that cause him to miss that class. We’re able to… we’re sort of spared the details. We know that there were goblin rebellions, which I bet you a million bucks were violent, just like some of the violence we’re reading about here, but we don’t have the luxury of being able to shrug it off. But actually, what I like about all of the information that we got through here is that it is a very obvious precursor to the kind of world that we will be getting in the movie. It’s going to be exciting. I think this is basically essential reading for the upcoming film.
Andrew: Let’s get to the first piece, and we’ll mention throughout these how they will potentially relate to Fantastic Beasts.
Eric: Okay.
Andrew: So the first one discusses the magic between the 14th and 17th centuries, when Native Americans ruled North America. Magic was very present amongst the Native Americans, according to J.K. Rowling, and the powers were largely respected by nonmagical folk, thanks to the medicinal powers and hunting skills it gave the magical people. Magical people in North America were aware of their brothers and sisters overseas and vice versa, meaning the ones over in Europe. All of them had similar communities, certain families were clearly magical, and magic also appeared unexpectedly in families where there had been no known witch or wizard. Now, this piece probably got the most attention online, so some of the Native American community were offended by Rowling using their culture in her work, or they believe that she didn’t do her research, or that she wasn’t correctly representing them. I’ll read a tweet from Dr. Adrienne Keene; she’s a Native American. She says to Jo, “It’s not your world. It’s our real native world, and Skinwalker stories have context, roots, and reality. You can’t just claim and take a living tradition of a marginalized people. That’s straight up colonialism/appropriation.”
Eric: Ouch.
Andrew: There were a lot of other messages like this. Here’s another one from somebody named Native Beauties on Twitter: “Don’t tell me that ‘There are other important things to focus on,'” referring to people telling this person to stop complaining. “We’re allowed to be angry. We’re allowed to make our voices heard. You must be out of your mind if you think we should sit idly while a renowned white author uses us as props in her fictional work.”
Eric: Ooh, damn.
Andrew: Yeah. So I see concern that maybe J.K. Rowling didn’t do much research, and I could see why that would be frustrating.
Eric: I’ve never known that to be the case. Have you ever known that to be the case where J.K. Rowling didn’t do research on something?
Andrew: I know.
Eric: She’s incredibly well-read and well-versed in everything involving mythology and history, at least in the regions that she studied for preparation of the Harry Potter books. To me, what seems to maybe be more of the issue here is that it’s too much of a overgeneralization that she’s making in this post, that it seems… because that first piece is only, I think, five paragraphs long. It’s basically like her cherry-picking which stories and traditions of a Native American people she wants to appropriate for her magical world, her side-by-side magical world in North America, without really getting substance in and basically doing respect to the traditions of these people as they actually are. So I can see that, but again, it’s a summary. This is an overarching summary lasting 300 years, and the only context we as Harry Potter fans or readers have for this kind of stuff is to compare it in the way that she does to Animagi. Again, she’s viewing this through the lens of people who already know about European wizards, so I think this piece suffers because it’s, again, a summary lasting 300 years, but only five paragraphs, but also because she’s limiting the context.
Micah: Well, to me, when I’m reading through this, I think I can identify what’s causing the most controversy, and that is it’s being labeled as an evil witch or wizard that can transform into an animal at will, and the fact that she states that this has its basis in fact. And so when you’re automatically taking this term and applying it to being evil and saying that it has its basis in fact… now, again, I don’t have the background, I don’t have the history, I don’t have the context, and as you both mentioned, J.K. Rowling is somebody who I would imagine, given all of the historical context that is within the Harry Potter series, does her research, and I just think that inevitably, there are situations that occur now that people are offended by statements that are made, and there’s no way to necessarily get around it, but I think in this situation, we need to remember that she is writing fiction. Now, she does say that it has its basis in fact, so I think that that in and of itself can cause a bit of controversy. Just doing a little bit of searching online, it just says that a Skinwalker is a person with the ability to turn into any animal they desire. Others say it’s a witch. And now, there’s no saying that a witch necessarily has to be evil, so that may be, at least from what I’m looking at here, where she got into a bit of hot water, went on a little bit of a slippery slope. Now, there may be some other things in here that people are taking issue with, but again, I look at it from the situation that this is fiction; this is a fictional world. And she is creating characters, she’s creating creatures, some with historical context, and it may not always be 100% accurate, but I don’t believe it’s in any way meant to be offensive.
Andrew: No, yeah, of course J.K. Rowling is not trying to offend anybody. There was this one interesting thing that one of our patrons, Stephanie, pointed out in the comments of a post we made on Patreon. She says, “I think J.K. Rowling always had the Native American card in her hand. In the Harry Potter series, Kendra Dumbledore is shown as to look like a Native American. If Kendra is in fact a Native American, did she attend Ilvermorny, and how did she end up in England?” And I looked into this, and Stephanie is right; Harry looks at a photo at one point and specifically describes Kendra as looking Native American. So I wonder… we know very well that J.K. Rowling is very good at planting early seeds and having them pay off later, so…
Eric: Yeah, I mean, Book 7 is not really that early. It’s the last book.
Andrew: No, but she could have written that in then, thinking that later she would one day discuss wizards in North America, right?
Eric: No, and that’s a direct… that’s exactly in the book. That’s the way she’s described, as you pointed out. So I think that’s definitely a very compelling idea.
Micah: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, so that’s that section. Anything else to say on that?
Eric: I just like the notion that these… what she says at the end here about different branches of magic, because the Native American wizards early on did not use wands. And we actually, in a previous episode when we were going through the schools… there are other schools where they train in magic without wands as well, and I’m just pretty fascinated with this new view of the wand being sort of optional, because just like nonverbal spells in the Harry Potter books, wandless spells in the Harry Potter books are really rare; you rarely ever see them. But at the same time, for instance, in the case of nonverbal spells, if you can master them, it gives you a real advantage over what would traditionally, according to this piece, be European wizards who use wands. So at least this far in, I’m just really intrigued by specifically she says that the Native American wizarding community “were gifted in animal and plant magic,” having many skills that exceeded every other wizard in potions and everything else like that, but Charms in particular and Transfiguration as branches of magic were more difficult to perform because they usually require a wand. I just think it’s really fascinating that essentially there’s this tool for channeling magic, but not everybody uses it, and people found different ways to channel magic. I like the view of magic as not being limited to wands. I think it frees up a lot of really interesting things.
Micah: Yeah, and I liked when they were talking about the ability of transformation, not necessarily the reasoning behind why they transformed, that they were almost forced to do so in order to escape persecution and to be able to go out and hunt for their tribe. But again, another area of potential controversy was saying that there was this legend that grew up around the Native American Animagi, that they sacrifice close family members to gain their powers of transformation, and I can see right there how that can be very controversial.
Eric: Well, that might be why she mentioned evil in the previous sentence, was because that was the rumor that sprung up around… but I can definitely see where people might get confused or hung up on that.
Micah: Well, and I would say, replace “Native American” with any other race, ethnicity, religion, and you would certainly have some sort of feedback, some sort of response from that community, and so I certainly completely understand where a lot of this is coming from. But my response to that is – and I’m certainly not an authority in any way – is remember that this is fiction, and it’s something that she is looking to do, really, just to provide context for this world that she has created now here in North America.
Eric: Well, in acknowledging that Native Americans had magic and had the brand of magic, or the same magic in the Harry Potter world that they did in in ours – at least as the legends say – is actually… it’s profound to be recognized in that way. If J.K. Rowling were to write that the three of us were wizards, that would be pretty cool, right? So it’s just kind of… I think in the execution something happened, and these marginalized people felt even more marginalized, or became offended, and that’s sort of upsetting because the very last thing I’ll say about this is I just don’t think it was the intention of J.K. Rowling.
Micah: And I do think that it was interesting for her to make the point that magic existed in North America prior to anybody immigrating here, that it’s not something that came from Europe or other parts of the world, that in fact, magic had its own foundation here in the US, Canada, Mexico.
Andrew: So let’s move on to the second piece.
Micah: Less controversial.
Andrew: Yeah, these all connect to each other, by the way. I think when you read through all these you understand, getting back to J.K. Rowling’s purpose for the Native American piece, why she included that. So the second one was… it included information on the Salem witch trials, which is something Harry Potter fans have been eager to hear about, how they played a role in the wizarding world. They actually led to the creation of the Magical Congress of the United States of America, which we learned in the second piece existed before the Muggles in the USA created a Congress of their own, which was kind of an interesting fact.
Eric: Ahh. [laughs]
Andrew: And MACUSA’s [pronounces it Mac USA] first task was to put on trial the Scourers, who had betrayed their own kind; those convicted of murder, of wizard trafficking, torture, and all other manners of cruelty were executed for their crimes, J.K. Rowling said. And Scourers… [laughs] which is a weird, weird word to say. They were a group of troublemakers who became increasingly troublemaking, and they connect to Fantastic Beasts in a way we’ll touch on in a minute. But what thoughts did you guys have on this piece?
Micah: It reminded me – specifically the Scourers – of Death Eaters from the Potter series, those that were loyal to some really bad cause and were very much of the mindset of doing harm to their own kind. You could go maybe as far to say – and I don’t know that all Scourers would be classified as pure-blood – but that’s also something that came to mind. I guess, in a way, it actually goes against it; they’re only interested in their own personal wellbeing. They care nothing for any other types of people, including their own.
Andrew: Yeah. So I didn’t have too much to say about this piece.
Eric: My bit on it is kind of… it’s very interesting that she would choose to have the MACUSA… [pronounces it Mac USA] Or actually, she corrects everybody with… she gives everybody a phonetic pronunciation here and says it’s commonly pronounced as “Mah-koo-za,” so I guess we have to…
Andrew: Ugh, let’s just call it Mac USA.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I read that and I was like, “What?”
Eric: “Mah-koo-za.”
Andrew: That sounds so dumb. It’s like, No-Maj level dumb. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, it is No-Maj level dumb. I would agree with you on that.
Andrew: So does that mean we’re going to be hearing it as “Mah-koo-za” in the movie?
Eric: Yes, that’s exactly what it means. This is why we have to… look, we have several months before this movie comes out to become not only acquainted, but satisfied. Genuinely, we have to turn our attitude, turn our frowns upside down, and start to love hearing it be pronounced “Mah-koo-za.”
Andrew: It reminds me of a koozie, like a beer koozie. You put your beer in one of those so your hand doesn’t get cold.
Eric: Right? Well, I’m not fond of Mac USA either.
Andrew: Me neither. [laughs]
Eric: But my whole thing is… I mean, it sounds like an ATM machine. I’m never going to stop saying that.
Andrew: Yes!
Eric: But the idea that the Wizarding Congress predates the USA Congress, I’m actually not okay with that. I’m not particularly offended, but I’m not okay with it, because the entire human idea of freedom – of individual freedom that doesn’t stem from a king or a monarch who has Godlike powers or is viewed to have God’s ear – I find it offensive, and I think it really shortchanges the amazing work that got involved in the formation of the United States of America. And the very idea of individual liberties as laid down in the US Constitution was entirely new at the time, or at least in a majority, in a large way… these were brand new ideas, and the idea of a Wizarding Congress set 100 years before is… I don’t know what the point is.
Andrew: Well, this passage, I thought, was interesting, because how it connects to Fantastic Beasts is that we know in the Fantastic Beasts movie, there’s going to be this group of Second Salemers, led by a particular person who has a costarring role in the movie. So we will probably be hearing about the Salem witch trials and how they led to MACUSA in the movie.
Eric: Well, and look, it’s as good a reason as any to just form a government if you need to enforce some “Don’t kill people” rules, you know? [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah. Micah?
Micah: Yeah, I agree with the way that Eric feels generally about this. It seems like very early on in American society – and you could certainly make comparisons to real historical context – there was a need for segregation, and there was a lot of discriminatory practices that were in place. And I don’t know necessarily how I feel about that, with the way that America as a whole is being presented here, and that was kind of how I walked away from reading a number of these pieces. I thought that… and certainly regardless of political views – and we all know that there’s plenty of that going on right now – I just thought that America was not painted in a very positive light by a lot of this.
Eric: I would agree with that.
Micah: And I don’t want to go down that road and get into that, because I feel like that’s not really at the core of what we do and what we podcast about, but I just kind of left with a bad taste in my mouth after reading some of this.
Andrew: Interesting. See, well, now you know how the Native American community feels.
Eric: Well, I will say that I kind of agree with what Micah was saying there about generally, too, that America is not portrayed in a good way. She explains it, which is interesting, but she has it – and I think this is in a later piece – there are just fewer wizards in America, and it’s because of what happened in Salem. And so the history isn’t going to be as colorful on this side of the pond, because many wizards, frankly, just stayed away, despite knowing about this continent hundreds of years earlier, or sort of the discovery of America, of course, happened in the 1400s, but wizards could have done more with it in that time, because this is going back to the first piece. But their magical ways of transportation made it a lot easier for them to not only discover America, but travel to it.
Micah: Right, and it goes back to what I was saying earlier on in the episode, where a lot of this doesn’t feel Potter-like until you get to the very last story that she puts out there. And there’s actually a piece in here that reminded me a little bit of the style of writing that you would get from J.K. Rowling in the Potter series, when she says, “There were no established wandmakers, and Ilvermorny School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, which would one day rank amongst the greatest magical establishments in the world, was at that time no more than a rough shack containing two teachers and two students.” And to me, that’s J.K. Rowling’s writing.
Eric: That’s the closest to… I think you’re right. I read that, and I’m like, “I want the origin story. I want… which two teachers? Which two students were they?”
Andrew: Maybe we’ll hear in the next piece, or whenever she introduces Ilvermorny. So the next piece, J.K. Rowling discussed North America’s Rappaport’s Law, which – this, I thought, was some of the most interesting stuff – segregated No-Majes and wizards.
Micah: Again, here we go.
Andrew: [laughs] So what happened was there was a serious breach in the International Statute of Secrecy – we all heard about that back in the Harry Potter books – with keeping the wizarding world a secret from the Muggles. There was a serious breach of that… there was a whole story here J.K. Rowling tells; I’m just summarizing.
Micah: Which, again, is very kind of cheesy for the whole reasoning behind why you have this segregation in place. So again, going back to having not a positive feeling after reading these, I think that had a part to do with it.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Micah: I mean, do you feel different?
Andrew: Well, no, I thought this was… J.K. Rowling can say whatever she wants; it doesn’t bother me.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Maybe I should take my own advice and say it’s just fiction; leave it alone.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly. I’m just like, “Okay, cool. Will this be in the movie, or what?” [laughs] So they decided to segregate wizards and Muggles under Rappaport’s Law, and we also learned – I don’t know if it was in this piece or in the next one – that Rappaport’s Law is still in place when the Fantastic Beasts movie begins. So I think that’s going to be really interesting to see on screen, wizards seriously, consciously trying to not show any sort of magic at all. J.K. Rowling said, “Communication with No-Majes was limited to that necessary to perform daily activities,” so think things like holding the door open, I suppose, or stuff like that, where you have to interact with them sort of, but you can’t be friends with them; you can’t get in a relationship with one of them. There was a very strict line here. With Rappaport’s Law, like I said, it’s going to be coming into play in the movie. We know in the movie, Newt’s suitcase is going to be open just a smidge…
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: … and then these beasts are going to be getting out and causing havoc in New York, and so MACUSA… [pronounces it “Mah-koo-za”]
Eric: There you go. You said it. [laughs]
Andrew: … is going to be blowing a gasket over all this stuff, over Newt’s leak, right? And I think that over the next two movies, I think the overarching theme here is about getting rid of that segregation, and then suddenly we may be talking in another year or two or three years about how J.K. Rowling is offering amazing commentary on equality and stuff like that, which is a huge issue in today’s real world.
Eric: It is, which is why it would upset me if there was a wizarding sort of… No-Maj and wizard equality, because we can’t even achieve that among non-wizards here in America in 2016. If the wizards do it first, it’s kind of pointless, right?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, the rest of the world is able to figure out how to do it first.
Eric: Ah, that’s true.
Micah: We need to follow suit.
Eric: You know what? That’s a good point.
Micah: But I like the point, Andrew, that you made in the article that you wrote, in terms of “Will the European mentality affect the story,” right? Will Newt, when he comes over to New York, really take to Rappaport’s Law? Will it be something that he is mindful of, or does he just completely ignore it because it’s not something that he is used to from the UK?
Andrew: I bet he’ll… well, if he’s going to go on stand at MACUSA… [pronounces it “Mah-koo-za”] I’m getting used to this now. Maybe I do like it.
Eric: Yeah, you are! See? You’re doing it! You’re doing it!
Andrew: [laughs] If he’s going on stand at MACUSA, he’s probably going to be like, “Yo, guys, over in Europe, we don’t have this segregation. Rappaport’s Law is dumb. You’ve got to get rid of this.” Right?
Micah: Well, also, I will say that if you go to another country, you usually have to follow their laws…
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Micah: … some you may not like as much as others, but maybe he’s just not as aware, and that could lead to some of what we experience in the first Fantastic Beasts film.
Andrew: And then the final piece here…
Micah: Which was the best part.
Andrew: You think so?
Eric: The fun one.
Andrew: Okay. So this one was about the roaring 20s, so that brings us up to where Fantastic Beasts begins. This one, like we mentioned earlier, it touched on World War I. It also touched on the different wandmakers here in America. There were four, unlike in Europe… or at least in England, there was just one; it was Ollivanders. So I guess we’ll go through these four. There was one named Shikoba Wolfe, “who was of Choctaw descent, was primarily famous for intricately carved wands containing Thunderbird tail feathers.” By the way, all these wandmakers in America only had a single core. They weren’t multi-core, like Ollivanders was. “Wolfe wands were generally held to be extremely powerful, though difficult to master.” Then there was Johannes Jonker, “a Muggle-born wizard whose No-Maj father was an accomplished cabinet maker, turned himself into an accomplished wandmaker. His wands were highly sought after and instantly recognizable, as they were usually inlaid with mother-of-pearl.” Then there was Thiago Quintana. He “caused ripples through the magical world when his sleek and usually lengthy wands began entering the market, each encasing a single translucent spine from the back of the White River Monsters of Arkansas and producing spells of force and elegance.”
Micah: That sounds like a bad country band, by the way.
Andrew: [laughs] White River Monsters of Arkansas?
Eric: Yeah, the White River Monsters of Arkansas? That’s going to be my wizard rock band, my new wizard rock band.
Andrew: And then finally, Violetta Beauvais, “the famous wandmaker of New Orleans, refused for many years to divulge the secret core of her wands, which were always made of swamp mayhaw wood. Eventually it was discovered that they contained hair of the Rougarou.” [laughs] Give us pronunciations for all of these! “Rougarou, the dangerous dog-headed monster that prowled Louisiana swamps. It was often said of Beauvais wands that they took to Dark magic like vampires to blood, yet many an American wizarding hero of the 1920s went into battle armed only with one of her wands.” So those were the four. I thought it was really cool that she had one in New Orleans. There was some speculation that Fantastic Beasts or Ilvermorny was going to be in New Orleans. We were hoping for that, because New Orleans has kind of these magical roots. It’s obviously a beautiful town still today. And yeah, so I thought that was great.
Micah: Yeah, I’d agree with that. I thought this was the most Potter-like, as mentioned earlier, of all the different pieces that we read. What I liked about it in particular was that she drew upon creatures in each of these descriptions of wandmakers that actually have basis in American folklore, and if you go through and you look up the Thunderbird, or the Wampus cat, or the White River Monster, or the… what was the last one, the Rougarou? Which is like a werewolf, almost. It makes sense for the fact that it has its roots in France, so that it would be in French Louisiana. So I just like a lot of the historical context that’s drawn upon here, the thought that went into all of this, and that they’re possibly fantastic beasts that we may come across at some point in the course of these three films that are being created.
Andrew: So Janelle, one of our Patreon supporters, asked us, “Which North American wandmaker would you prefer to get your wand from and why?”
Eric: Ooh. What a great question.
Andrew: Well, New Orleans for me. I went there last year; I just loved it so much. I haven’t been to Arkansas. I haven’t seen the White River Monsters. [laughs] So I would go with Violetta’s wands. She’s probably cool as hell; you know that too.
Micah: She is, but it says that a lot of her wands went the route of Dark magic, so what does that say about you?
Andrew: I’m dark. I’m dark. I already know this.
Eric: [laughs] That was just a rumor. All of the heroes ride into battle with one of her wands.
Andrew: How about you guys?
Micah: I like the one you chose, Andrew, but maybe I’d go with Shikoba Wolfe.
Eric: Oh?
Micah: Well, the Thunderbird is said to closely resemble the phoenix, and the wands are extremely powerful, difficult to master… good challenge, right?
Andrew: You’re up for a challenge. Micah is always up for a challenge.
Micah: And prized by Transfigurers.
Andrew: Are you a Transfigurer? All you just did was read the description.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: “Here’s exactly why I want this wand.”
Andrew: It is hard to decide based on just this limited amount of information. I mean, if there’s something here that connects with you, like if you’re into phoenixes, then I can see why you’d pick Shikoba. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, she sounds cool, so I just think that would be… any of these are a good choice. They all have these cool background stories to them, and I wonder how influential they are in terms of the students that get accepted to Ilvermorny, and how that all plays into it. How do you go about getting a wand with all these different potential wandmakers?
Eric: I would go with… I’m just going to choose a different one, so that we can be equally representing all of the wandmakers. But sorry, apologies to Thiago Quintana; I’m going to go with Johannes Jonker, because his dad was a cabinet maker, I guess, and very humble roots…
Andrew: [laughs] You’re into cabinets?
Eric: I’m into cabinets.
Micah: Into mother-of-pearl?
Eric: Yeah, inlaid with mother-of-pearl, and the core is the Wampus cat. I just like the humble origins of this wandmaker, the fact that he is recognized as one of the four greats of America, when he basically comes from nothing and has some really… I don’t know, you wouldn’t think a cat hair would be a great wand core, but apparently it is, because he’s on this list. So I’m going to go with Jonker. Also, I don’t want a creature’s spine for a wand; that’s very Elder Wand, or very movie bone wand looking to me, and I would think that would be terrifying.
Micah: Yeah. And then another point that you made here, Andrew, about MACUSA not being a fan of ghosts, poltergeists, fantastic creatures, when compared to their European equivalents, because of the risk? Again, that was something that when I was reading, I said, “Well, gee, America, what’s your deal? You don’t…?” So I don’t want to get into it again, but that was something that, when I was going through and I was reading all these different stories, it added to my list of things where I didn’t think that we were particularly depicted as being that great.
Andrew: Yeah, I think you’re right. And again, that is going to play into the Fantastic Beasts movie. MACUSA is against ghosts, poltergeists, and fantastic creatures. I mean, J.K. Rowling says it right there, “fantastic creatures.” [laughs] So I think there are a lot of big hints in this about what is coming in the movie, whether anyone cares how… I just hope J.K. Rowling doesn’t reveal too much, because I feel like we already have a good sense of what’s going on in this movie.
Eric: We’re intolerant.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Yeah, and that’s the thing that… and again, I just think that the fact that we are so adverse to wanting to try and coexist between these two communities… we certainly have historical representations of that; do not get me wrong, but I think that it’s at so much the forefront of her telling this story about North American magical communities, it just doesn’t sit very well with me, and that’s just my perspective.
Andrew: One thing we did not get in these various history lessons was any info on Ilvermorny. There were a couple of mentions. I was expecting that, since they were hyping this up… like I said, there was an announcement the day beforehand that said, “Expect a new feature every day at this time.” I was expecting Ilvermorny to come up, a big, big unveiling, because a lot of people – everybody in America – is really excited to hear about this school, finally.
Eric: Well, are we still now? Now that we know that it’s probably not going to have any ghosts in it, and…
Andrew: Yeah, it doesn’t sound very cool, does it? No fantastic creatures.
Eric: Does not sound very cool, no.
Micah: Sounds boring.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I’m sure J.K. Rowling will have some interesting information to share.
Eric: You’re right, though, Andrew, it was pretty ballsy to have a four-day group of segments on magic in North America that barely rates a passing mention for Ilvermorny, the school, which she just says is… how does she describe it? One of the top… later renowned as one of the top schools. So it’s like, “Well, how did they get there? I’m kind of interested.” But it’s coming later.
Andrew: So we have a couple more questions here from our patrons. Devon says,
“When it comes to the History of Magic in North America, are you guys happy with the actual writing of the ‘stories’? To me it doesn’t even feel like JKR wrote it at all, but more like she told someone what happened and they wrote a summary of it. I think this is why I’m having a hard time connecting to the stories in general, even though I was so excited to learn about the history.”
Eric: Huh.
Andrew: So we touched on this, but…
Micah: I think, yeah, it’s very similar to some of the things that I was talking about a little bit earlier on, and I do have some similar feelings to what Devon is saying here.
Andrew: Yeah. And then Sophia said,
“Do you think Jo has just set up Mary Lou as a descendant of a Scourer family? Scourers passed down a hatred of magic to future generations, and she’s a Muggle (No-Maj, if you will) that heads up the Second Salemers, an extremist anti-wizard group, so it would make a lot sense if that were her backstory.”
Sophia is referring to the Mary Lou character in Fantastic Beasts.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: And yeah, I completely agree. I think Mary Lou is going to have a connection to the Scourers. Since she’s a part of the Second Salemers group, I think it makes perfect sense. I also like the name, the Second Salemers.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I think that’s a good name for the new Salem witch trials people.
Eric: Yeah, it’s got a… although, if you abbreviate it, the SS, it’s not fun at all.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Micah: Yes.
Andrew: So that’s it. That’s the history lessons from J.K. Rowling. It was a good week; it was exciting to read these and write about these. I think Pottermore has hit its stride; I think it’s finally figured out its purpose. This stuff is a lot better than some of the other stuff we were reading, because it’s brand new, I guess, compared to some of the stuff J.K. Rowling was releasing when the new chapters would come out on Pottermore, and we’ll see what else they have. I think when they get into Ilvermorny, I wouldn’t be surprised if they do some sort of quiz to Sort you in the House, if there’s Houses.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I’m still interested in finding out if there are Houses, but I don’t know. Anytime Pottermore hints that it’s providing something other than writing, it never materializes. I’m still waiting for my Patronus quiz.
Andrew: That’s a shame.
Micah: Yeah, how that was left out is beyond me, but they found a way to do it. And I’d be excited, too, just to see Ilvermorny. What does it look like in terms of how is it going to appear in the Fantastic Beasts film? Assuming Newt goes there at some point.
Eric: Oh, God, how cool would that be?
Andrew: That would be cool, but I don’t think… I think they’ve kind of said that it’s not really going to be in the movie. That would be amazing, though. I think people would lose their minds.
Micah: It’s just a shack with two students and two teachers.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Well, there was a piece of art that was released on Pottermore. It’s kind of like… you can see the outside of the school.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: It’s not as tall as Hogwarts. It kind of looks like there’s less floors, I think. Maybe it’s just the angle. But yeah, oh man, if that was in the movie… I just want an Ilvermorny shirt. Why isn’t that a thing yet?
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I’m sure you’ll get one at some point.
Andrew: I’m expecting to walk into the Wizarding World of Harry Potter one day at one of the Universal theme parks, and suddenly there’s going to be Ilvermorny merchandise sitting there. [laughs] And I will buy it for sure.
Patreon update
Andrew: So we’re going to get on to some news, and we’re also going to play Make the Connection, but first we just want to offer everybody a quick Patreon update. We’re getting close to our first milestone, which will bump our release schedule up to two episodes a month. We have about 150 patrons to go before we start doing two episodes a month. Once we hit that milestone, more MuggleCast, baby. More interviews, more looks at the fandom, more timely news discussion… I think that’s going to be really helpful. We’re about to talk about the Cursed Child cast. It happened kind of a while ago.
Eric: Yeah, a little bit.
Andrew: I mean, after our last episode. It’s been a few weeks. So we’ll have more timely discussions here on the show. And a little update for the T-shirt: We promised everybody who supports us at the $5 level that you will receive a MuggleCast T-shirt, the design of which will be revealed by April. You must sign up by the end of July 2016 to receive a T-shirt, and the reason we’re setting a deadline is so that we can make sure we get the shirt order right, and to make sure that we can get all the shirts out by the end of the year. So if you want to get a T-shirt, please sign up by July 2016. However, no matter when you sign up, you will be receiving signed album art. So everybody who’s pledged $5 or more already, we’ve finished signing over 700 pieces of album art.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: We’ll sign more if we get more people signed up above 700.
Eric: So I’ll actually just add to what Andrew is saying. How our Patreon is set up currently is that there are 687 spaces, which is the vault number; it’s Harry’s vault in Gringotts. 687 spaces for our $5 patrons, and if that gets filled, we will have met all of our milestones. We’ll be doing weekly MuggleCasts, everybody will get album art, a T-shirt, and it’ll really just be a great place for the show to be in. We’re already halfway to that goal already, in the first two months, which is extremely exciting and wonderful, and I really want to thank everybody who’s already signed up. But we also want to stress just how cool the album art and T-shirt will be as an effort to say, “Come join us and help support MuggleCast on Patreon.” I mean, we’re bringing back the designer of our recent live appearances. In fact, I was just thinking this the other day: The last live MuggleCast – correct me if I’m wrong – was Leaky in Chicago 2012.
Andrew: That sounds about right.
Micah: Yep, I think that’s right.
Eric: I mean, that was four years ago, and we’d love to do more live events, and we’d love to do more MuggleCast too. I mean, this is the way that it’s going to happen, so if you’ve considered joining us before, if you considered supporting the show, this is the way to do it. You will get really cool stuff, and this is just the beginning of the really cool stuff that you’ll be getting, but due to logistical reasons, it’s better for you if you sign up now versus later. We release multiple pieces of content every week, and it’s not just chapter readings; it can be any random thing, like text message conversations that we think are funny, videos that we take with each other, and otherwise it’s web vlogs, everything we had on Pickle Pack… there’s even some talk of Pickle Pack shirts, but I won’t even tease that, because it’s just for one person who sadly still didn’t get theirs. But I mean, the sky’s the limit, and honestly, we’re having a lot of fun providing MuggleCast, providing this content for you. All we can say is, please join us. Please support us. Go look at the website, watch our video – it’s very nostalgic – but please, please, please think about joining us on Patreon, and you’ll get some really cool stuff in return.
Andrew: Patreon.com/MuggleCast. There’s also an app, so when you sign up, you can have access to all this content easily on your phone, so you’ll be able to listen to the stuff, the bonus MuggleCast stuff, see the photos, see the video, all easily right in an app.
Eric: Oh, yeah, and there’re push notifications that come when a new thing is uploaded, so we get likes and comments on it right away when people leave feedback. Also, our discussion comments, as you will have noticed – things that we’re bringing on, questions from people – all happen on Patreon, so you can really sort of shape the show. And we’ll be looking at our patrons for more input on every episode.
Micah: I was just going to say, one of those pieces of content happens to be video of us signing those 700 pieces of album art. I went all the way to Chicago just to…
Eric: [laughs] How did we do this? How did we do all 700?
Micah: It’s a miracle that the marker lasted that long. But I’ll add this, too: We did have fun with some of them. There’s a handful that are specialized in other ways beyond just the signature, and for those of you…
Eric: Which will be random. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, it’ll be random, but for those of you who get them, you’ll know what we’re talking about. We certainly encourage you to share them once you do receive them. And another thing that just came to mind was the chapter readings that we’re doing now. I know I have the responsibility of Sorcerer’s Stone Chapter 3, so if you ever want to hear me try a British accent, which I’m sure is a painful experience…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: It’s coming.
Micah: … it may happen. I don’t… we’ll see. But yeah, I just echo what Andrew and Eric have already said. We can’t thank those of you who have already supported the show enough, and we look forward to continuing to come up with new and different ways to say thank you.
Andrew: Right. Patreon.com/MuggleCast.
News
Andrew: So a couple news items now. The full Cursed Child cast was announced; rehearsals are now underway. They unveiled the cast by sharing one big picture of the whole family together. [laughs] It’s quite the photo; there’s 40 people in the cast. And also in this photo is J.K. Rowling, the producer…
Micah: I missed her.
Andrew: You missed her? Really? It’s hard to miss her.
Eric: Yeah, where’s she at?
Andrew: She’s front and center.
Eric: Oh.
Andrew: So here’s the thing, though: It was exciting that we got this, but they didn’t share who’s playing who!
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: So we still don’t know the characters in this play. If you look at some of them, you can kind of figure it out. Obviously we know who’s playing Harry, Ron, and Hermione. There’s one person who I think is going to be playing Ginny Weasley; I think she definitely looks like Ginny. But then you look at some other people… you see a couple older people here, you see a good number of kids… you see a lot of white people…
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: There’s one, two, three, four, five, six people of color, so it is what it is.
Eric: I have to say… that’s exactly what I was going to say, too. Hermione is being portrayed by a person of color, which is amazing and forward and awesome, except there are very few other persons of color in the entire cast. There’s essentially 50 white people in this photo…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: … and not even really any children of color, as Micah just pointed out in our chat here. So does that mean…? So Hermione is a person of color, but none of her children are? What’s going on here? For all of the multinational edge I thought this play was going to have, this more realistic representation of the real world today, it wouldn’t seem to extend beyond the lead role of Hermione.
Micah: Well, two of the kids look like they’re from New York, or at least they have shirts that say that.
Eric: [laughs] Have shirts that say “New York.”
Andrew: Yeah, I thought that was weird.
Micah: So maybe they have two Americans who are in the play. You never know.
Andrew: Oh, it’s like a little hint?
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: So Pottermore is promising that they’re going to unveil a couple of these soon, a couple of the characters soon. I don’t know… [sighs] Would it really unveil a lot if they were to just tell us all the characters in the play? Why not just do that?
Eric: Yeah, it would give everything away.
Andrew: What?
Micah: It gives them content, though. It gives them a little bit of the surprise factor of being able to reveal all the different cast members that are a part of this play.
Andrew: Yeah. Oh, you’re right. I’m not complaining; as somebody who is a publisher myself, I’m happy to do multiple articles on these. [laughs] It was just a little disappointing to not hear about a single character when they show this photo of 40 people.
Eric: Right, right. Here’s all the people, but you don’t know if they’re going to be old croon one, old shop owner one, or people that… someone that Albus meets in an alley… it could be anything. And so even though they gave us their names, unless you’ve worked or live next to these people, it won’t mean a darn thing for you or to you. The character descriptions and character names are totally what’s going to really unlock the secrets.
Andrew: Yeah. And by the way, a 40-plus member cast is very big for a stage play, so it’ll be interesting to see just how immense this story is. Remember, it’s over two separate shows. You have to go to two shows to see the full story.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: I’m looking forward to seeing who’s playing Paul Snape.
Andrew: Paul Snape. Tall? What did you say?
Micah: Paul.
Andrew: Paul Snape? I don’t get it.
Micah: I’m just making that up.
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Eric: There’d better be a… J.K. Rowling, if there isn’t already a Paul Snape character, please write that in for Micah.
Andrew: Other Cursed Child news: I reached out to Barnes & Noble and a couple other booksellers on behalf of Hypable to ask them, “Hey, you guys planning on doing midnight release parties? Because we really want them.” And they said yes!
[Eric gasps]
Andrew: Barnes & Noble wasn’t ready to announce anything, but they did give me a little statement. They said that they have major plans for Harry Potter this year, and were working closely with the publisher. They said to stay tuned. Another big chain, Books-A-Million, the second largest books chain, they told somebody on Twitter that they’re putting together their plans, and will announce them once they’re ready. So it looks like we really are going to get a full-blown series of midnight… [laughs] That was a weird way to phrase it, but we’re going to get a lot of midnight release parties for Harry Potter and the Cursed Child.
Eric: Gosh, which one to go to? Right, guys? I have a Books-A-Million right down the street from a Barnes & Noble.
Andrew: Oh, do you? Honestly, I don’t see Books-A-Millions ever, so I’m probably going to be at a Barnes & Noble. One other news story… this just happened the other day; I thought the timing was really interesting. A bill has just entered the United States House of Representatives that, if passed, will designate magic as a national treasure. And the bill… here’s what it hopes to recognize. It’s a long bill. Well, kind of long. Too long to read right now.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: But it says, “Whereas magic is an art form with the unique power and potential to impact the lives of all people; Whereas magic enables people to experience the impossible; Whereas magic is used to inspire and bring wonder and happiness to others; Whereas magic is timeless in appeal and requires only the capacity to dream; Whereas magic transcends any barrier of race, religion, language, or culture,” and all these other things that start with “Whereas.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: So I just thought this was funny, that this would enter the real United States House of Representatives a week after J.K. Rowling’s “History of Magic in North America.” [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: But it was kind of surreal to see this, that if it’s passed… I’ve spoken to my friend Elysa, who I do Millennial Podcast with; she said, “Yeah, this is probably going to pass, because they like to do informal stuff like this.”
Micah: And nothing else, apparently.
Andrew: [laughs] Right, right.
Eric: This is cool. I like the idea of magic as therapy for children, which is one of the things that gets mentioned here. And of course, they’re talking about sleight of hand, illusionist type stuff, versus real magic. At first, I was really confused. I was like, “Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Does real magic exist? And how do you quantify it?” But I think this can be a good thing, and certainly not one of the major things Congress needs to tackle, but I would love to see this get passed.
Andrew: Well, here’s the thing: I think that now that… if this bill passes, we’re going to see real wizards and witches coming out of the woodwork. They’re going to feel accepted.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: They’re going to break Rappaport’s Law, and they’re going to be like, “Hey, you guys. We’re here. We’re actually real.”
Eric: I think that would be awesome.
Make the Connection
Andrew: Okay, let’s move on to Make the Connection.
Eric: I love these. These are great, and they’re always great, and we ask… we’ve been bringing back old segments as part of our new MuggleCast initiative, and one of them we brought back recently was Make the Connection. We took to our listeners to submit their Make the Connections, which we are going to try. So y’all know how this work: The goal is make the connection between Harry Potter and something else that’s random, and we have to do it. And there’s usually a time limit, but we’ll see how we can do. So Micah…
Andrew: By the time the Jeopardy song runs out, you must answer.
Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yes.
Micah: Okay.
Eric: Okay, so Micah, I am going to task you with making the connection between Harry Potter and an all expenses paid trip to Hawaii.
[Jeopardy theme song plays]
Andrew: [laughs] This music really adds to it, I think.
Eric: [laughs] We need the John Williams version of the Jeopardy theme song.
Andrew: But I mean, don’t waste the whole song.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Oh, I was just listening to the Jeopardy theme. It’s so mesmerizing.
Eric: Now that you play music, we all want to listen to it.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, because we never got the opportunity to go anywhere outside of what we knew as Harry’s world, right? Though, I will say this: For Harry, right, I think going to the Weasleys’ was like going on vacation, and so that would be my comparison in terms of going to Hawaii.
Eric: Oh, I love it.
Andrew: Okay. Yeah, it was good.
Eric: Also, he didn’t have to pay to go visit the Weasleys, so I would say that’s very adequate.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Okay, Andrew, are you ready?
Andrew: Yeah, I’m ready.
Eric: All right, this is from Sofia. Oh, by the way, the other one was from Erika, Erika Kiana on Twitter. This is from Sofia on Twitter at @TubbieHead, who says, “Make the connection between Harry Potter and waking up 15 minutes before your alarm clock goes off.”
[Jeopardy theme song plays]
Andrew: Before my alarm goes off. [laughs]
Eric: Waking up before… specifically 15 minutes.
Andrew: Well, when you wake up before your alarm goes off, you feel like, “Oh, man, I’m awake. I don’t have to… I’m not going to feel like crap when my alarm goes off.” So this would be like when Harry doesn’t have a detention with Umbridge, you’re kind of released from this pain that is coming up, whether it’s on your hand, or mental pain of getting out of bed in the morning.
Eric: I like that a lot.
Andrew: Do you? [laughs]
Micah: I actually thought you were going to go with taking Felix Felicis, when you feel like you’re on top of the world.
Andrew: Oooh, that’s a good one. I’m going to try one more time.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Andrew: All right, Eric. Here, let me throw one of these at you. “Make the connection between Harry Potter and the Pope on a unicorn in an Arctic tundra.” This is from Lauren.
[Eric laughs]
[Jeopardy theme song plays]
Eric: Oh, gosh. Pope on a unicorn in an Arctic tundra.
Andrew: Something you will probably never, ever see in real life, ever. Although this Pope is pretty cool; people call him the cool Pope, so…
Eric: The cool Pope.
Andrew: If there’s a unicorn, if it’s finally discovered, maybe he would want to meet it.
Eric: You know what? I got it.
Andrew: Go ahead.
Eric: Okay, so at Hogwarts there’s obviously the Hall of Portraits, and these portraits can travel between each other, the characters in the portraits, etc. So I guarantee at least one of the Catholic Popes was probably a wizard, and would have a portrait at Hogwarts within the last thousand years, and there’s definitely a unicorn; I know there’s at least a unicorn… what do they call that? A tapestry, based on the movie’s version. But so my theory is that you could actually put the Pope on a unicorn against a backdrop of the Arctic tundra at Hogwarts, using the portraits.
Andrew: Okay, okay.
Eric: Sorry if that was a cop-out, if anyone feels that was a cop-out.
Micah: No, no, that’s more than I could have done.
Andrew: Given the circumstances, I think you did good.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Pope, unicorn, Arctic tundra. Why don’t we do one more all together?
Eric: So my two favorites remaining are Felix Scamander and Jennifer Sieben on Twitter. But I also like Shiksha, who wrote, “Zayn leaving One Direction.” [laughs] I don’t know if we should do that.
Andrew: [laughs] Well, that would be like losing Trelawney at school.
Eric: Wow.
Andrew: Who did Umbridge get rid of?
Eric: Trelawney.
Andrew: Trelawney, okay, yeah. So if you’re a Trelawney fan, and Trelawney gets kicked out, you’d feel pretty horrible. And if you’re a One Direction… [laughs] I mean, I’m not even playing the music. I just kind of fell into this.
[Eric laughs]
[Jeopardy theme song plays]
Andrew: But if you’re a One Direction fan, you would feel pretty horrible that Zayn is leaving the band.
Eric: Okay.
Andrew: Which one do you really want to do?
Micah: Ron. It could be Ron leaving the trio.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. I was thinking more central characters, but I think it works either way.
Andrew: You pick one, Eric.
Eric: Oh, I pick…? Well, okay. Here’s Jennifer Sieben’s. “Make the connection between Harry Potter and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra performing the songs of Kansas only on items found in the kitchen.”
Andrew: Okay, you can definitely take that one.
Eric: This was a group one!
Andrew: No, I just answered one!
Eric: Well…
Andrew: All right, I’ll try to help you out here.
Eric: Okay, all right, all right.
Andrew: HP and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra performing the songs of Kansas…
Eric: So Kansas rock music, items only found in the kitchen like pots and pans, and Chicago Symphony Orchestra. So they’re dulling themselves down to do that.
Andrew: I feel like house-elves would… I mean, this isn’t directly related to something that happened in the books or movies, but house-elves would put together a mish-mash of…
Eric: That’s amazing.
Andrew: … random instruments and maybe those things in the kitchen at Hogwarts.
Eric: That’s amazing. They have pots and pans! Yes, they do!
Micah: And they would play Kansas?
Eric: [laughs] “Carry on, my wayward son…” The thing is, obviously we know music is a magic far greater than what is taught here at Hogwarts – except in the movies – and I have a feeling the house-elves would join the choir, and there’s probably an all house-elf band that now tours in the future or present-day Hogwarts.
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: Yeah!
Andrew: That’s how we play Make the Connection.
Interview with Justin Zagri
Andrew: All right, to wrap up the show today, I spoke with the creator of Severus Snape and the Marauders about the making of the film, and here’s that interview. I’m joined now by Justin Zagri; he’s the writer and director of Severus Snape and the Marauders. Hey, Justin, how you doing?
Justin Zagri: I’m good, Andrew. How are you?
Andrew: Good, I’m doing good. Thanks for coming on our podcast. It’s actually been a while since we’ve done an interview with somebody fandom-related, so it’s nice to have somebody on again.
Justin: Oh, it’s an honor.
Andrew: Cool, cool. So many of our listeners have seen Severus Snape and the Marauders now, and a lot of people have really loved it. Can you tell me how you originally got the idea for this one?
Justin: The idea actually came from… initially, the concept came from the fans. I did a poll after The Greater Good was successful, asking people what they wanted to see, and it was overwhelmingly they wanted to see a story about the Marauders. And I decided, “Well, I want to tell a story that involves Snape, too, if it’s going to involve the Marauders.” And I just did as much research as I could into the books, and I thought about my limitations, as far as what I could do here in Los Angeles, which means no castle, no school, unfortunately, so I thought, “Well, what if…? What would it be like if these people confronted each other just after graduating Hogwarts? Because they’re all about to go to war, so what would that be like? How would they interact? They would probably get into a fight, and how would that fight turn out?” So that’s how… that’s where it came from.
Andrew: So when you were researching it, you mentioned the books. Did you happen to read fanfiction or anything? Because there’s a lot on the Marauders. [laughs]
Justin: I did not read fanfiction, because that are the fans’ interpretations of the characters, and they vary wildly. People see James Potter with square glasses, people see Remus Lupin and Sirius Black in a relationship…
Andrew: Right. [laughs]
Justin: … which I think is really cool and interesting, but it’s just not in the books.
Andrew: Right, you want to stay loyal, yeah.
Justin: Right, and a lot of people have their own opinions and what they think of Snape, as well as James. So again, I was like, “This is not what I should be looking at, because I should just tell the best story I possibly can from the books themselves, and then it’s up to the fans to decide whether or not they liked it.” And the reactions have been very, very positive, but there have been some negative, because they see James Potter and other characters in a different light than I do, which is perfectly fair.
Andrew: Right. Yeah, and I mean, you can never please anybody, too, especially when it comes to… you can never please everybody, too, I mean, when you’re working with such fragile material.
Justin: Right.
Andrew: So yeah, you mentioned the viewers. Was there…? What kind of pressure on release eve were you feeling? [laughs]
Justin: I mean, the pressure was coming from finishing the film. Once I was done, I was very relieved, and I was… I throughout the creative process was wondering, “How are the fans going to react?” But all I could say is, “Look, I just want to make the best film I can, tell a story that has a really prevalent theme, that has a premise to it, that has something to say. It’s not just the adventures of the Marauders or the adventures of Snape; let’s see what we can tell the audience.” And from there, it was just get the film made, shoot the film – which was a very difficult task due to weather and technical issues – and then spend the next year getting visual effects and sound and music done, which is also a daunting, long, and slow process, but ultimately very, very rewarding.
Andrew: There were some really cool action sequences in this. Were you looking to the Harry Potter movies to find inspiration for the wand work and how the spells looked?
Justin: Yeah, definitely. I was looking for inspiration from the movies, and I was also looking at how they chose to visually display their magic, and I wanted to put my own spin on it, at least a little bit. I wanted the shields to really pop, something the movies didn’t quite do very much. But the books and the movies, they’re not as focused on wand fights and duels; they’re much more… they have a lot more ground to cover than just fights. So mine was centered around the final confrontation between Snape and the Marauders, and I wanted to make sure it really stood out, both from a storytelling point of view, as to why Snape is not necessarily overwhelming the Marauders, but certainly holding his own against four talented wizards, or at least three and a half, I guess. Peter Pettigrew, you know… I don’t know.
[Andrew and Justin laugh]
Justin: But I wanted to say why he was… Snape was a powerful wizard, and I wanted to display also that the Marauders, when they’re together, were ultimately extremely powerful and willing to go to great lengths to do what they think is right. And that’s where some of the more impressive visual effects come from, is to show these guys are not just really powerful, but are willing to take it to the next level because they feel like they have to.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I think something else that was really impressive was how you felt for Snape while watching this. You’re reminded just how much James bullied him, and this is just something you really haven’t seen before. There were some sequences in the later films where you get some clues, but this, I was just really feeling bad for Snape. Was that a priority when you were going into writing this?
Justin: I wanted it to be a large mix of emotions for Snape and James. I wanted it to start out where you felt like you could relate to James and his friends, like you could sit there with them at the bar, talking about life and making little machismo quips, because that’s what 17-year-old boys do at each other. And then I actually created a shift in tone, literally, when you see Snape come in; the lighting in the scene gets a little darker, because in my opinion, Snape brings out the worst in James and vice versa. And the story was really about how Snape and James are maturing as people, especially James. It’s kind of funny; some people will say, “Oh, you got James wrong,” and I’m like, “No, I don’t agree with you.” They’re like, “He matured by his seventh year,” and I’m like, “Yeah, he did, in some ways, but when it came to Snape, he still was immature.” And there are facts in the book to back that up, but he did mature into a noble man. So this movie is about how he matured and why he matured. So we start out with liking James, then we start out with not liking James and feeling bad for Snape, but then when Snape ultimately wins the duel through sheer emotion… that big explosion was actually inspired by a passage in the Deathly Hallows where Voldemort explodes out of anger when he’s taking on three wizards himself. But after that moment, Snape starts getting really horrible, and I wanted that to justify how horrible Snape can be. I wanted there to be a moment where you actually hated Snape. He tortures Sirius, he puts Sectumsempra to Remus’s face – and Remus is one of my favorite characters, so it hurt to do that – and then he just beats James horribly and then tries to kill him. And James didn’t deserve to get killed or beaten up like that. Once he loses, Snape could have been the better person and walked away, but he didn’t. And then finally, James admits that he started it, in front of Lily and in front of his worst enemy. That shows major maturity to me. So I wanted it to go back and forth; you like James, you hate James, and then you realize that, “Oh, he’s growing. He’s learning.” Same with Snape.
Andrew: See, one of the reasons it’s so great that you did this movie is because it’s clear that you have a very strong handle on this story, so I think that’s really awesome.
Justin: Thank you.
Andrew: So at the end of Severus Snape and the Marauders, there’s a bit of a cliffhanger. And I don’t really want to spoil it for people who haven’t seen it yet, but is there going to be a sequel? Are you already thinking about that?
Justin: [laughs] Well, Warner Bros. very early on asked us to stop raising money for this film. As soon as we successfully funded our first Kickstarter, we did note that we were going to do another Kickstarter to pay for post-production visual effects, and Warner Bros. called us up and said, “You can make the movie, you can keep the money, but please don’t raise any more money.” And we raised a lot of money, so to make another film on this level of production value and quality is… unless I become rich or something, it’s really kind of impossible.
Andrew: It’s too bad that they had to put the kibosh on that.
Justin: Yeah. I mean, it’s within their right, and we’re eternally grateful that they let us still make the film.
Andrew: Right.
Justin: Other companies have shut down fan films and taken their money back, so we’re very grateful they did that. Having said that, we do have ideas in mind for how to continue the story, and we are not making guarantees that we’re going to go through with it, but we’re trying to find out ways to execute that in ways that are very low budget or no budget, really, but have a sense of quality behind it that still works, so kind of considering a radio drama to continue the story.
Andrew: Oh, interesting. That would be very cool.
Justin: Yeah, that way we can keep the actors – at least their voices – we can introduce a lot more actors, and we can get really imaginative without having to pay for it. [laughs]
Andrew: Right, yeah. Okay, so you’re considering more in the world of Harry Potter. And just a question unrelated to making one of these movies: What story do you think J.K. Rowling should tell next from the wizarding world?
Justin: Well, she’s already doing wizarding world in North America in the ’20s, which I think is really interesting. The roaring ’20s was a very interesting time period in America, as it was just before the Great Depression, so I’m interested to see how she incorporates American history into that, and see if she does it accurately or not, or if it’s from a British point of view. [laughs] And also, she’s doing the Cursed Child, which I think is great. I really honestly… I am a Gryffindor, but I hope Albus Severus is a Slytherin, and he changes the House of Slytherin’s reputation for the better.
Andrew: Yeah, I think this is a really good opportunity for her to do that, improve the image of Slytherin. [laughs]
Justin: I agree, because all seven books were from Harry’s point of view, and his experience with Slytherin has been very negative, but I can’t believe that every single Slytherin was just a bad wizard, so that’s what I’m interested in getting to know.
Andrew: Yeah, cool. Well, the movie, again, is called Severus Snape and the Marauders. What is the website for it?
Justin: It is SnapeMaraudersFilm.com, and if you just search on YouTube, “Snape Marauders,” or “Severus Snape and the Marauders,” you’ll find the video.
Andrew: Cool. Hope everybody enjoys it, and Justin, thanks for joining us.
Justin: Thank you very much, Andrew.
Andrew: All right, and that concludes today’s episode of MuggleCast. Over on our Patreon, we are going to be releasing more MuggleCast, bonus MuggleCast; we’re going to be talking about the butterscotch latte hype at Starbucks. People have been comparing this drink to butterbeer? I tried it myself, and I was disappointed, so we’re going to talk about my disappointment.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: We’re also going to talk about the Harry Potter film score going on tour across America, which is super cool.
Eric: Yes.
Andrew: And we have some more questions from our patrons about the illustrated edition. Sara wants to know what scenes in the remaining books we’re most looking forward to seeing; Kimberly has a question about the audience for the Cursed Child, the book version, because she’s a children’s librarian, so we’re going to talk about that, if we think this will be appropriate for children; and a couple other questions. So thanks, everybody, for listening here. Again, we have our Patreon now. We really would appreciate your support; we’re getting close to doing two episodes a month.
Eric: Very close.
Andrew: Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You can sign up today and have instant access to a lot of content. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: And I’m Micah.
Andrew: See everybody next time for Episode 290.
Eric: Woo!
Andrew: Goodbye.
Eric and Micah: Bye.