Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #323, “Credence”
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: This is MuggleCast, the Harry Potter podcast discussing everything about J.K. Rowling’s wizarding world. This week’s episode is sponsored by Harry’s, who offer a great shave at a fair price. Get $5 off a shave set when you go to Harrys.com/MuggleCast. Welcome to MuggleCast Episode 323. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Andrew: And joining us this week is one of our Slug Club members, Juliana. Welcome to the show, Juliana!
Juliana: Thank you so much for having me.
Andrew: Yeah, it’s great to have you on. You know, everybody, it’s 13 years to the day since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban hit theaters. We’re recording on Sunday, June 4.
Eric: Love it.
Andrew: It was the first Harry Potter movie to come out during the summer. Movies 1 and 2 came out in November. I still remember going to this movie. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, me too.
Andrew: Sitting there. I actually have a very specific memory of the Shrieking Shack scene, watching all these iconic actors and characters all together. I still remember leaning forward in my seat, because I was like, “[gasps] Look at all these people in one scene; this is amazing!”
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Andrew: That’s just the one memory. And I still remember who I went with; it was one of my friends from middle school, I guess it was. Do you guys remember going to it? Did you go to a midnight screening or…?
Juliana: I have no memory of seeing this movie in theaters. I know I did, and it must have been opening weekend, but I don’t remember it at all.
Micah: I did not go see it in theaters. I saw it after the fact.
Eric: Huh. Okay.
Andrew: Fake fan.
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Eric: I don’t want to pull rank here; I saw it in London at the Odeon Leicester Square during… this was actually the apex moment of HP Fan Trips, of the very first HP Fan Trips.
Micah: Eric, you’re just putting us all to shame.
Eric: I didn’t mean to do that.
[Juliana laughs]
Eric: I mean, if you had even seen it in theaters, you could compete.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: But no, it was at the last moment… I remember it vividly because this was the day, 13 years ago, that I found out what Wolfstar was. Or what is it, Moonstar? Wolfstar? It’s the Sirius and Remus ship. I was sitting next to the world’s largest Wolfstar shipper, and she also happened to be my chaperone on the trip, woman by the name of Catherine, because I was still 16 and couldn’t go on the trip on my own, so she was chaperoning. Anyway, the Shrieking Shack scene, too, when Sirius… or just after, when Sirius is having to hold Remus very closely and try and prevent him from transforming, and saying, “You live in one, this is your heart, your real heart, it’s true,” and he’s holding his chest, and Catherine was just flipping out, just absolutely losing it.
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Eric: And I remember looking next to her and seeing her glee, and just being completely moved and empathically just blown away by how great this movie was having an effect on her, because ultimately I came out of it not appreciating the adaptation as a whole, but it was great seeing…
Andrew: That was probably one of the strongest adult ships in the Harry Potter fandom. Adult character ships.
Eric: Actually, I still think it’s probably the most closest to canon, honestly, if you really look at it objectively. But I think that… I mean, the film definitely pleased those fans. But the cool thing about the theater was it was still decked out, because the world premiere had been the previous weekend, and I didn’t see the world premiere, but the building had Dementors coming out of it.
Andrew: Oooh.
Eric: Very, very large sort of Dementor arms, and then the side of the building was painted for, obviously, the trio up top. It was really, really… I have a picture somewhere. But yeah, and this was 2004.
Andrew: Prisoner of Azkaban was obviously one of the more controversial films. Looking back on what film was the greatest of the series, a lot of people say it’s their favorite, whereas a lot of people say it’s their least favorite. Alfonso Cuarón really brought a different vibe. He made Harry Potter grow up; one of the biggest and most controversial changes is that he took them out of the cloaks. They were always wearing cloaks in the first two movies, looking like little kids, and then he started putting them in just kids clothing, so that was a big change. Of course, the shrunken head; that was an Alfonso touch. That wasn’t in the book. But yeah, I like the movie a lot, looking back on it. Not one of my favorite books, but that’s besides the point. We’re talking about the movie.
Eric: [laughs] Speaking of favorite books.
Andrew: Anyway, yeah, so Juliana, let’s hear about… let’s get your fandom ID. What is your favorite… or what is your Hogwarts House? [whispers] I say that every time.
Juliana: Ravenclaw.
Andrew: How about Ilvermorny House?
Juliana: Horned Serpent.
Eric: Oooh.
Andrew: Favorite book?
Juliana: I don’t know; it always changes. I’ve for a long time said Order of the Phoenix, mostly just because it’s the longest one, and I like all the backstory that they get into with the Weasley twins and all that kind of thing. But I also really like the third one. So I would go with Order of the Phoenix, but it’s not a definite.
Andrew: How about a favorite character?
Juliana: Hermione.
Eric: Ooh.
Andrew: Aw. Patronus from Pottermore?
Juliana: It’s an otter, which is the same as Hermione’s, which made me very happy. [laughs]
Andrew: Aw! Yeah, I bet. And finally, how did you get into Harry Potter?
Juliana: So I was introduced to it by my third-grade teacher; she would read to the class every day, and she read the first Harry Potter book. And I’m assuming I went home and begged my mom to buy them for me, and that was right after the third book came out, and it’s funny because when she bought them for me, she bought them out of order, so I read the first book, then I read the third one, and was very confused…
[Andrew gasps]
Juliana: … and then went and read Chamber of Secrets.
Andrew: [laughs] Wait, were you aware when you read Prisoner of Azkaban that you were skipping a book, or did you not even realize that?
Juliana: I didn’t even realize it, and then in the beginning of Prisoner of Azkaban, they talk about how Ron broke his wand, and I remember reading that and saying to myself, “I don’t remember this happening at the end of the book.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Oh my gosh.
Juliana: And then I think we realized that we made a mistake there.
Andrew: Oh, that is too funny.
Micah: Actually, you know what? Alfonso Cuarón did the same thing, and that explains a lot about the third movie.
[Everyone laughs]
Juliana: Yeah, maybe that’s why.
Andrew: Well, thanks again for joining us. It’s great to have you here.
Juliana: It’s great to be here.
Andrew: We’re going to be talking about Credence Barebone today as we get towards the end of our character discussion marathon, and we also have some voicemails later in the show.
News
Andrew: But first, one news item this week. I am so thrilled about this, you guys. The Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone 20th Anniversary House Editions are now out in the UK and in Canada.
Eric: Yay!
Andrew: They are freaking gorgeous. Gor-geous. So we’ve spoken about them previously when they were announced. There’s four editions now of Philosopher’s Stone, each representing one Hogwarts House, and on the cover you get your House colors, you get your House crest, and then you get a couple of words describing your House. And then the pages, the outside of the pages – I still don’t know what word to use to describe them – they’re colored; they have your House colors. So at Hypable, I had Donya, one of our writers… she also appears on Resistance Radio from time to time with Eric, a Star Wars podcast.
Eric: Yeah, Donya is great.
Andrew: Yeah, she ran out and picked up Hufflepuff’s because she is a Hufflepuff, and she took pictures and wrote a review on Hypable. And the book just looks so amazing, because in addition to the Harry Potter and Philosopher’s Stone story itself, you also get House-exclusive content. You get to learn about the House ghost, you get to learn about the House founder, you get to learn about… there’s a page here called “Making Hufflepuffs Proud.”
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Who wrote that? Is it all from J.K. Rowling?
Andrew: I don’t know. Good question. But there’s also a map of Hogwarts School. It’s just… I mean, and the picture of Helga Hufflepuff in this book is just stunning.
Micah: She’s hot.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I am so excited to get this book.
Eric: I love the deep dive on this book in particular. As a Hufflepuff, I love this, so now I have to own this.
Andrew: Yeah. So previously we said, well, that I was ordering. Did you guys order copies from Amazon UK?
Micah: I did.
Eric: Oh, I didn’t.
Andrew: Okay.
Juliana: I did.
Andrew: Did yours ship? Both of you?
Juliana and Micah: Yeah.
Juliana: It’s on its way.
Andrew: Good. Excellent. I think by mid-June we should have them in America. For those wondering why they’re not selling them here in America, it’s technically not the 20th anniversary here.
Micah: Trump.
Andrew: Yes, Trump has prevented this book from being published here.
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Andrew: No, this is actually the 19th anniversary in America, so it’ll be interesting to see what Scholastic does. I think they’d be crazy not to do House Editions, because these just seem to be wildly popular in the UK so far. But it’s also kind of… I guess maybe I’m just an impatient person, but who can wait till next year to get one of these books?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I want it now, so that’s why I ordered it. [laughs]
Eric: Well, it simulates the pain of waiting for the book to come out in US.
Andrew: Ah, yes, yes.
Micah: And wait, which ones did you get? Did you get all of them, Andrew?
Andrew: No, so I got Slytherin and Gryffindor, but apparently I ordered two Gryffindors, which I honestly don’t remember doing, so I’m going to… yeah, so I’m going to have both of those Houses.
Eric: We are doing a giveaway, right? At some point.
Micah: Yes you are.
Andrew: We did, we did, and we already have the winners, and their books shipped too.
Eric: Oh, love it.
Micah: Okay. Otherwise, I was going to say, Eric, that’s a great idea.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Hey, good ideas are always good.
Andrew: That was last month’s Patreon giveaway, or two months ago, I think.
Eric: Yeah, we’ll figure out what this coming month’s will be. But this is super cool.
Micah: But I went with Slytherin and Ravenclaw.
Andrew: Oh, you got two.
Micah: I did, yeah.
Andrew: Why two?
Eric: You were a Hatstall, right?
Micah: Well, I was a Hatstall.
Andrew: Ah, yes. How about you, Juliana?
Juliana: I just got the Ravenclaw one.
Andrew: Oh, duh. Of course. Cool.
Eric: I’m going to get the Hufflepuff one.
Andrew: Yeah, so good stuff. Really glad that these are happening, and we’ll talk about them… probably not next episode we’ll have them, but the episode after that, we should have them.
Eric: Yeah, once they’ve all been received.
Andrew: We are going to get into our discussion about Credence in a moment, but first, just want to tell everybody that this week’s episode is brought to you by Harry’s. Father’s Day is just around the corner, and dads are impossible to shop for.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Because it could be hard to find something that feels special that he’ll actually use. I know my dad; he’s so darn picky with gifts. It’s so annoying. But fortunately, our friends over at Harry’s have a special offer that you’re going to love, and Dad will too. You can get $5 off one of their shave sets, including a limited edition Father’s Day set at Harrys.com/MuggleCast. Eric, Micah, and I, we all love using Harry’s. I’m the newest person in this group, I think, to start using them. I love the shaving cream that they give you. It’s very easy to apply and wash off, and helps you achieve a close and comfortable shave. And I mentioned Father’s Day; Harry’s sent me two Father’s Day sets.
Eric: Oh, love it.
Andrew: And I gave the second one to my dad, and we both loved them, because… I’m not a dad, by the way.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: I was going to say.
Eric: Treat yo’self.
Andrew: Right. [laughs] Guys, I have an announcement.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: No, they come in these beautiful boxes, so it’s more than just giving your dad a razor and some shaving cream. It comes in this beautiful presentation, and I think he’ll really like it. And like I said, it’s something he can actually use. So go to Harrys.com/MuggleCast right now to redeem a special offer for fans of the show. Harry’s is going to give you $5 off one of their shave sets, any of them. This is for a limited time only, so act now. That’s Harrys.com/MuggleCast to get $5 off and help support the show.
Eric: I shaved with a Harry’s razor this morning.
Andrew: I need to tonight.
Eric: There we go.
Main Discussion: Credence Barebone
Andrew: All right, so let’s get into our character discussion!
Eric: Yay. Today we’re going to be talking about Credence Barebone, played by Ezra Miller in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. The interesting thing about the trajectory of our character discussions is going from Grindelwald or going from Graves into Credence is sort of, well, positively inspired. The two characters probably share the closest and most screentime when they’re with each other in the film. But if you really think about it, Credence is in some ways the most powerful magical force possibly in existence at the time of Fantastic Beasts, because you’re going into Grindelwald seeking out this Obscurus who’s going to help him to take over for wizards and all that, but Credence, being much older… people don’t usually survive to the age where Credence is if they have an Obscurus. Credence has done that, and so Credence somehow, something about him – and this is said in the movie a bunch of times – makes him super powerful and kind of terrifying.
Andrew: Yeah, he’s the most disturbed character, he’s the most vulnerable character, and you see that vulnerability towards the end where he gets really mad at Graves/Grindelwald and starts wreaking havoc. In terms of how he ranks in Fantastic Beasts as a character, how would you guys…? Did you like him a lot? Did you really not like him? Personally, because he’s so dark and depressed, he wasn’t one of my favorite characters.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Well, he’s a bit mopey, but I think you get… the reveal at the end gives you a little bit more of reasoning as to why he is the way that he is throughout the course of the film, right?
Eric: Sure.
Micah: So you may not… I don’t want to put it in the same category as somebody like Tina, but you get a better understanding as to why he acts the way that he does throughout the course of the film. And you mentioned vulnerability; Graves/Grindelwald plays upon that masterfully throughout the course of the film, and is able to really take advantage of his emotions. And it’s hard to watch, but then when you get that reveal at the end… and I would throw out the question to the group, did you see that coming? Did you think it was his sister that was the Obscurus, or did you kind of have a thought in the back of your mind that it was going to be Credence?
Eric: I think I can recall genuinely being surprised by the reveal, because you’re going into the movie for the first time, and everyone – including Newt Scamander, who’s the expert – is saying that it’s going to be a young child, and Grindelwald is talking with Credence, and says, “You’ve got to find this young child.” Everyone’s looking for them. And the movie is shot… up until the very end, when Graves is approaching the little girl in the corner, and she looks just utterly terrified, and he realizes – and you realize – that she’s not in control of it. I don’t know, it’s just so well played. I think I can remember being genuinely hoodwinked by that.
Andrew: And the other surprise was that Grindelwald/Graves didn’t even see that he was the Obscurus.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: So that’s why we were all so surprised as well, because it’s like, “Why didn’t Grindelwald realize it himself?”
Micah: He calls him a Squib, right? He said he could smell it on him.
Eric: Oh, God.
Andrew: When he gets mad at him, right?
Eric: Yeah, that’s such a dirty line. I hate that. J.K. Rowling describes Credence in the Blu-ray special features; she says, “Credence is [Mary Lou’s] adopted son. He is a traumatized young man.” And I think that’s a good word for it. I mean, he’s traumatized. Mary Lou Barebone is the head of the Second Salemers – who I believe we’ll be talking about next week – and really just keeps this group of people and is condemning magic. And she sort of creates this environment where he isn’t free to explore who he is or what he is, but he somehow feels this responsibility to keep order, to keep these children, I guess, safe off the streets, whatever it is that they’re doing exactly there. He’s the oldest, and therefore the most responsible. He’s in charge of going out and finding meeting places, these other things that we see him do in the films, but ultimately, it’s a life of repression and oppression that he’s just not able to be himself. And that’s J.K. Rowling’s, I guess, thesis statement, really, across all Harry Potter films, is “You’ve got to be yourself.”
Andrew: And Mary Lou hates him the most of all of her children.
Eric: Yeah, do you think she knows?
Andrew: Well, yeah, that’s what I was wondering too. I assume you mean knows that he’s a wizard? Has magical abilities? She knew that his birth mother was a witch, so I think she assumes that he could be. Then again, she probably doesn’t know much about magic and how it works, so maybe she doesn’t realize the extent of his abilities. But she must have a feeling. She must have a feeling, and this is, I think, why he was treated the worst amongst the children.
Juliana: It makes me wonder how old Credence was when she adopted him. Was he already this Obscurus, or is she the reason that he is an Obscurus? That’s what I really want to know.
Andrew: I would guess that she’s a big reason why he’s an Obscurus, because you become an Obscurus by suppressing it, right? So if she hates magic, he’s going to be suppressing it, and it’s just going to get worse and worse.
Eric: That’s true, which means she would have had to have adopted him when he was still in those formative years of magic.
Micah: Very young, I would think. Yeah, I agree with that. I think that she is, in large part, why he is an Obscurus. And so one other question, though, is what do you think his last name could be? Do you think that he’s from a very powerful magical family? In terms of future films, is this something that’s going to be revealed?
Juliana: Yeah, I think he’s probably going to be related to a familiar family, a very powerful…
Eric: Very interesting.
Andrew: The Grindelwald family.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: “I am your cousin’s descendant.”
Juliana: Or the Gaunts or something. Who knows?
Eric: Yeah, I don’t know. I wonder. I wonder about that. We actually have a lot of… we have some info on “Barebone,” but that could be his adopted name, as you point out. But our good friend Katy delivered with name origins, which I think we should probably talk about towards the end of the discussion, because actually, I think it’s best suited there. But yeah, Credence as a character who is being repressed, I have to say, I think that his character arc in future films… because there’s a case to be made for him still being around; I think David Yates very early on spoiled that he would, in fact, be coming back. I like the idea of Credence, who is sort of in a tough position, but overcomes that, and the reason I led with his magical ability, talking about how he is the most powerful force, is because I think he’ll be very useful to Newt and his friends, or at least a force to be reckoned with in future, and I have a feeling that his character, given time, is going to come around to the side of good, I think, more so than the side of bad. I just don’t think that enough has been done to him that would make him against humanity, although in this film he straight up kills a dude.
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Eric: The Shaw banquet. I mean, if you look at that scene and how terrifying it is, it’s almost like it’s in a different movie, a horror movie, because quite unseen, he just bowls through the banquet hall and tears Shaw right up, lifts him up, kills him, and leaves him for dead, and then bursts out.
Andrew: But the reason for that was justified, because there’s that earlier scene where they’re in the newspaper office and his family is being treated like crap. So I think that justifies his rampage at the event.
Micah: Yeah, well, I think it’s interesting you say his family was being treated like crap, because I don’t particularly think that it mattered the way that his mother – or his adopted mother – was being treated by the Shaws. I think it was more so that Shaw straight up calls him a freak in the office, and I completely forgot about that the first time that I watched the film. I think going back and watching it again and having the context of him being the Obscurus is much, much different, and you see his facial reactions and how he’s responding to things. And not only does he kill Shaw; he kills his sister by accident when he kills his adopted mother.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Micah: So how much does he have the ability to really control what’s going on? And you talked about him becoming a force for good, but how? Because if he’s not able to control this, and there’s sort of this additional effect that can happen when he is taking on this form that he can’t really do much about, that’s very dangerous.
Eric: I think I mean, when I’m saying force for good, I think what it is is he might not have the ability right now to control it, aside from the fact that he can turn it on and off, and he seemed to be… I don’t know, he seemed to be having pretty good composure in the train station at the end when Newt was talking to him. I just think that because Newt is the expert and was able to actually separate… he does the impossible, was able to separate on a younger person, the Obscurus, the Obscurial from the person, and I’m not suggesting that’s what he’s going to do with Credence, because maybe it’s just too late and you can’t, but I think Credence and Newt could really work together and form sort of a friendship, which is only hinted at here. Maybe that’s crazy.
Andrew: Well, no, I think an important thing to remember is that Graves/Grindelwald promised him that he would have a place in the wizarding world. He could get him into the wizarding world.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: And Credence really wanted that, and I think one of the reasons for the outrage, his outrage in the movie, was that he realized that Grindelwald/Graves was lying to him. So I think now he’s driven to truly become a wizard. Now his mom is out of the way, who was causing major disruptions in his life. Now I think what could make him good is this desire to be a regular wizard, to be open about who he is. And to be loved! We know he wants love too because he was getting close to Graves because Graves was showing him attention, and he was like, “It’s okay, what you are. You don’t have to be afraid of what you are. I will help you.”
Micah: I wonder, though, with this situation potentially being very similar to what happened to Ariana, if Credence is in fact traveling to where Newt is traveling, could we see Dumbledore even adopt Credence in a sense, and try and bring about what you guys are talking about? Making him whole again.
Eric: I love that. I didn’t even think of that, having Dumbledore… yes, it’s on the table. I think it’s absolutely on the table.
Juliana: Do you think he’d be able to rein in his powers enough to function as a normal wizard?
Andrew: He does.
Juliana: Because he does seem kind of out of control. Although, his force is definitely pointed, because he doesn’t kill lots of random people when he’s destroying things in New York that you see in the beginning of the film. He seems to only kill people with intention, so he has some level of control, but I wonder if he’d be able to function in normal society.
Eric: That’s a good question as to whether or not he could even wield a wand and do normal spells now that he’s an Obscurial.
Andrew: With training, with love, with having friends.
Eric: Well, the answer to everything is love.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: Of course it is.
[Andrew laughs]
Juliana: Right, so I’m sure that that would work.
Eric: Yeah, I’d like to see that future for him. I would. I think what it is, though… and you mentioned this too, Micah. Being so turned off by Graves in the movie, right – he knows he was just being used – automatically puts him on the right side of the war, because this is going to be Grindelwald’s war, and he sees how Grindelwald manipulated him, so I just see him as definitely going to be on the same side, but as a rogue agent, almost, because his power is unmatched!
Micah: Right.
Eric: Nobody’s ever lived to this age while still being an Obscurus. It’s crazy.
Micah: And he does have it under control to an extent, but again, Chastity was really an unintended casualty of what happened when he completely destroyed the church and killed his stepmom, so there is still that unintended effect that could happen and has happened already. So I think it’s going to take a lot of training, a lot of trying to teach him to control this to a point where he’s not having these unintended consequences hurt other people, and so I don’t know if that means completely removing the Obscurial from him and then training him, or it may be an impossibility, just given how old he is at this point. I think there’s so many things that could be discussed as it relates to that.
Juliana: Maybe he’ll go to Hogwarts and that’s when we’ll see Hogwarts again.
Eric: [laughs] We’re going to see Hogwarts again anyway, because the production crew are obsessed with it.
[Juliana laughs]
Andrew: Well, if Dumbledore is busy teaching at the school and he’s getting involved somehow, then yeah, I could see Credence having a visitors day at Hogwarts. [laughs]
Eric: So I had this thought while thinking of it recently, that Ezra Miller is kind of like this film series’, the Fantastic Beasts film series’, Evanna Lynch character. Hear me out here: If you watch him give these interviews that he gives, and if you listen to what he’s saying, and the stories that he’s telling from the set, you can really tell that he’s sort of into it in a level that’s above everyone else’s. I feel like the adult actors were are all very passionate, and you see them laughing and loving and talking about their experiences, but Ezra, for instance, actually wore – and demanded to wear – 1920s era underwear for his role as Credence. This is not something you ever see in the film, obviously, but this is something that he did to get into character, which, I guess maybe 1920s underwear is uncomfortable or something.
Andrew: Wow, Oscar for this guy. No wonder he looks so uncomfortable all the time.
[Juliana laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah, this is the radish earring sort of thing.
Andrew: [laughs] The radish earring.
Eric: And I think, interestingly, the reason I push this so hard is because he also seems to have knowledge that nobody else has, and he seems to have knowledge that for some reason they keep letting him say. So on the Blu-ray special features, he gives this insight into the Obscurial, which is particularly relevant. Here’s the quote from him:
“The truth is that [Credence is] magical and he’s been repressing his magic. The forces of the universe come into a physical form, which is this Obscurus, and that Obscurus initially comes to the Obscurial as a friend, trying to encourage – with increasing severity – encourage this kid to allow their true identity and their power to run through them. The idea of this Obscurus is that if you continue to suppress the truth of you then it turns ugly. You can run but it wouldn’t be very fruitful.”
So the way he describes this – I mean, he’s clearly not pulling this out of his 1920s underwear here – I have a feeling that J.K. Rowling was very clear with him about the character, about the motivations of the character, and he seems to have a deeper understanding. I mean, this sounds like the Obscurus originally is sort of like an imaginary friend sort of thing that comes to you and is trying to convince you to channel your magic through them? It’s crazy.
Andrew: I also think what you were kind of getting at is that he’s a huge Harry Potter fan getting ready for this role.
Eric and Juliana: Yeah.
Andrew: And there was a quote… I was just trying to find it while you’re talking; I can’t. But he had this really great line – I think it was at Comic-Con – just about how excited he was. Oh, I know what he said; he was like, “Getting cast for this was like getting your Hogwarts letter.”
Eric: Aw.
Andrew: Because he had always been a huge Harry Potter fan of the books and movies, and then he finally got this role, and he finally gets to be in the wizarding world. So yeah, like Evanna Lynch, who is a huge Harry Potter fan. She found out about the Luna Lovegood casting call through MuggleNet. [laughs] Yeah, they’re just both die-hard Harry Potter fans. I don’t know if we ever mentioned this on the show, but now feels like a good time to say it: When I was on the set for Order the Phoenix, and that was Evanna Lynch’s first movie, she told me that she was listening to MuggleCast one time on the set, and Emma Watson comes over to her and says, “Oh, what are you listening to?” And Evanna is like, “Oh, I’m listening to MuggleCast. It’s a Harry Potter podcast.” And Emma Watson listened for a little bit with her!
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Juliana: Whoa!
Eric: I love that. I love that so much.
Juliana: That’s really cool.
Andrew: And then she said, “Oh, this sucks. Why do you listen to this, Evanna?”
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Eric: Oh, yeah. Sure, sure, sure.
Juliana: Hey, maybe she listens regularly. You don’t know.
Andrew: Maybe, yeah.
[Juliana laughs]
Eric: Evanna did surprise us all in Chicago by wearing that shirt, right? She had one of the original MuggleCast shirts. We had made up the seven year anniversary shirts, and I asked her if she needed one; she says, “No thanks, I’ll bring my own.” We didn’t know what that meant, and then she showed up in the original iPod shadows shirt to the MuggleCast panel.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s great.
Eric: It’s crazy.
Andrew: Yeah, she’s a real Harry Potter fan, and that showed through. And getting back to Credence, hopefully his love for Harry Potter will shine through as well in these future movies. Can we talk about what’s ahead for him?
Eric: Yeah, well, let’s… so here’s a quote from Ezra on Credence just once more that I thought was relevant. He says,
“There is cause and effect in all things in the world. And the idea of someone who endures trauma and then has the tough choices to make about how that trauma is gonna manifest/whether that wound will be a blessing or will be a curse? I think is a really potent subject.”
Andrew: Hmm.
Micah: That’s deep.
Eric: Right? [laughs]
Micah: No, it is. It is. It’s a very profound, very deep statement to make, and I have to imagine that it’s leading somewhere as it relates to his character in future films.
Andrew: So at the end we do see him kind of disappear off into a wisp. We see one little piece of the Obscurus go up into the air, and then we do also know that… I think it was David Heyman who said that they did film a scene of Credence boarding a boat, but it didn’t even make the deleted scenes! So I guess they’re just trying to keep it secret that he is still alive, which I guess is understandable. But the cat’s out of the bag at this point, since he said they shot that scene.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Juliana: Right, it’s weird he would say something about it and then it wouldn’t show up anywhere.
Andrew: Right.
Juliana: I was really looking forward to seeing that.
Andrew: Yeah. So I guess my question is, where does he go from here? Like I said earlier, is he going to try to become a wizard now? Is he going to try to get what Graves/Grindelwald promised him?
Eric: And more importantly, how does he get to Europe if he’s not on the boat?
Andrew: Well, I bet he took the boat. Yeah, it just seems like… I’m forgetting the timeline here. Where does Ariana fit into this, in terms of her potentially…? When does she die? What year was that? In the ’40s?
Eric: I feel as though it’s already happened.
Micah: Yeah, I think it’s safe to say that it’s already happened, and that kind of led to my thinking about if, in fact, another living Obscurus makes its way to Europe, makes its way to the UK, and there’s the opportunity for Dumbledore to interact in some way to play a positive role, given everything that’s happened to his sister, that he may look to Credence as that opportunity.
Andrew: Yeah, I think that makes sense. He could kind of redeem himself. The mistakes he might think he made with Ariana, he can fix. He can redeem himself by applying what he learned there on Credence, and that…
Micah: But I do like the question, though, that’s here about why couldn’t Grindelwald figure out that it was Credence? I know we touched on it a little bit earlier, but for somebody as powerful as Grindelwald to have that level of oversight, know that he had the vision of seeing him standing next to Credence, wouldn’t that have been the ultimate tell right there that if they were standing together next to each other – unless that was just some line that he fed him – that Credence could be the Obscurus? I know he’s a little bit older, but still. It seems like maybe with everything else that he’s dealing with… I get it; he’s a convict who’s on the run, who’s trying to mask as the head of the Aurors for MACUSA. But you would think that he would be able to do a better job of figuring it out.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of like Dumbledore’s innate ability to figure out what’s going on in the cave, right? Because he sees, he feels, he senses magic. I think it’s a couple things: Graves’s vision, first of all, which we don’t know too much about it, is clearly just incomplete, and he says as much. He says, “I saw you,” and maybe it’s just his misreading of his own vision, too, that he doesn’t realize immediately that Credence is the one he’s looking for. But I think it’s also possible that Credence was masking his magic, or that by very nature, an Obscurus is kind of a hidden thing where you wouldn’t be able to walk up to somebody and sense it. The idea that Ezra is talking about, where he says it’s like a friend that comes to you… I wonder just how much an Obscurus is separate from the host, and how maybe if it’s not active, you couldn’t feel it or sense it or know it was there in a weird way, kind of like how Snape is able to hoodwink Voldemort. I mean, Snape is the world’s greatest double agent, the world’s greatest, most gifted Occlumens, who’s basically able to withstand being in such close proximity to Voldemort for so long while working against him, and it’s just something that he does because he does. So I’m wondering if Credence is sort of a similar situation.
Juliana: Maybe it’s just the nature of the Obscurus itself as a protective mechanism.
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Juliana: Because if people can detect it, they would try and destroy it.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: I like both of those points, Juliana, and yours, Eric, about it just not being clear. I mean, even if you look at just how the Obscurus looks, it’s a mess.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: It’s not clear. You can’t tell who it is by looking at that thing.
Micah: Yeah, that’s true.
Eric: Yeah, and I mean, Credence, as a product of society, you have to believe that these young wizards are… even though they’re supposed to generally remain a secret, so many of them do not end up developing Obscurials, right? Seraphina Picquery is very proud to point out that there haven’t been any in centuries. But ultimately, Credence is… this happens because of the harsh living conditions he’s in. I forget where I was going with that, other than to say it’s supposed to, I think, point to larger instances in the wizarding world of larger morals of being yourself, of being true to yourself, and for that reason, I think it’s safe to assume he’ll be pretty mainstream of a character for movies to come.
Andrew: Yeah. I do think he will be redeemed, Credence. I do think he’ll eventually be happy in this film series. Also, just looking at the… [laughs] This is going to sound stupid, but we’ve spoken about this before. He has such a bad haircut…
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Andrew: … I feel like by the end of this movie he’s going to be a good-looking guy with a normal haircut, and we’ll be like, “Wow, think back to Fantastic Beasts 1, where he looked terrible. He’s really come through in so many ways.”
Eric: Well, Mary Lou just cuts all of those children’s hair by putting the bread bowl on top of their head and cutting around, right?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Andrew: Dumbledore is going to give him a Queer Wizard Eye for the Straight Guy makeover, and yeah, it’s going to be beautiful.
Eric: Sure. [laughs]
Andrew: I can’t wait.
[Juliana laughs]
Micah: Eric…
Eric: So let’s… yeah, what?
Micah: Just going off of one of your points, though, I think that Credence is just symbolic of what’s going on in the larger wizarding community in America, right? They’re all… they’re not necessarily suppressing, but they are in hiding; they’re not out in the public. And this goes to really Grindelwald’s ideology, so I think in some way he’s an example of what the entire community is going through.
Eric: Yeah, definitely.
Micah: Was that too deep?
Juliana: Which makes it surprising there aren’t more.
Eric: Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe there are. Maybe Seraphina is lying through her teeth and is in denial. Maybe she has people who go and stop that from happening when it sprouts.
Andrew: Yeah. Or maybe they just die before they become too much of a problem.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Which might sound sad, but…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: No, yeah, it does, but like a big boom. You want to talk about name origins?
Andrew: Sure.
Eric: All right, cool. Well, we have two. So we have Credence, his first name, and Barebone, his second name, which we’ll do. Credence is an old French name. Medieval Latin and Latin all agree with French that Credence means “faith, trust, believe.”
Andrew: I believe in Credence. I trust he is going to become a good person. I have faith.
Eric: Yes. The noun and verb versions of this word also mean the same thing. Katy put, “Credence was very trusting of Graves/Grindelwald, which made him easy to manipulate.” Definitely, definitely, definitely. And Credence is actually one of many Puritan virtue names. Now, this article that she links to is extremely long, but it’s super interesting, because – and we’ll have to link to it in the show notes – it talks about Puritan virtue names, what those were, who chooses it, how they come about, and it’s just a list of different names. So there’s names like “Please-God,” there’s names “What-God-will,” and then there’s other ones like “Abstinence,” “Reformation,” “No-merit.” [laughs]
Micah: Do Chastity and Modesty make that list as well?
Eric: Let me see. Vanity, Jolly, Happy, Verity… Verity is a name we’ve heard before in Harry Potter, I believe so. Chastity…
Andrew: Ooh, I see Graves in here too. I’m just kidding.
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Eric: Many Puritan names… so it’s just a number… it’s sort of a history, a quick history of how Puritans chose their names, but it’s definitely worth a read, considering these names. But J.K. Rowling is pulling from history, she’s pulling from the Puritans to better set the scene in a world that is believable, so mad props for that. It’s an authentic Puritan name.
Micah: So Eric, you made me think of something when you said that Credence was very trusting of Graves/Grindelwald, which made him easy to manipulate. Do you think that’s because he lacks a father figure?
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: Well, so he was naturally drawn to Graves because he is that father figure.
Micah: And do you think there’s a chance his father is still alive?
Eric: That’s a really good question, I guess.
Juliana: Yeah, probably.
Andrew: Is his birth mother still alive?
Eric: Well, his birth mother was killed.
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: I think that’s what Mary Lou says.
Andrew: Yeah. He was put up for adoption, but we don’t know why. I guess it could be because she died. It could be a host of reasons that you’re put up for adoption.
Eric: Yeah. Maybe he was conceived by the Force.
Andrew: But we really don’t know anything about his dad; we just know that his mother was a wizard. So maybe his dad was as well. Maybe his dad is Grindelwald!
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Micah: That’d be weird.
Andrew: [laughs] Or Graves. Anyway, let’s talk about the Barebone side of that.
Eric: Yeah, so the Barebones… so there’s actually a real guy who was a Muggle named Barebone in real history, and this was, of course, Praise-God Barebone. “Praise-God” is hyphenated.
Andrew: His name was Praise-God?
Eric: His name was Praise-God Barebone.
[Juliana laughs]
Andrew: That is the strangest name ever.
Eric: It’s a Puritan name; it’s on the list. It checks out. [laughs]
Micah: Consult the list, Andrew.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah. She gave us the list; he’s on the list. It checks out. He lived from 1598 to 1679, so it’s actually quite a lot for the century that he’s in. He was an English leather seller, preacher, and Fifth Monarchist. He’s, according to Wikipedia, best known for giving his name to the Barebone’s Parliament of the English Commonwealth of 1653. So this is a real-life dude who is sort of in the British government, and he has some books that he wrote, and just seems to be the most prominent Barebone. So Katy found that for us, which I appreciate.
Andrew: I’m going to name my first child Praise-God.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: But the last name Barebone is such a strange last name. I really would like to know why J.K. Rowling selected that. It just seems dirty to me.
Micah: It’s a wizard porn name, if you didn’t know.
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Eric: Oh, God.
Andrew: “Barebone Productions.” [laughs] “Barebone Books.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Why didn’t Newt get published under Barebone Books? Why did it have to be Obscurus Books?
Eric: Yeah. Well, trying to be a little more on the nose, I guess.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But there’s actually a Barebone in history in J.K. Rowling’s fictionalized version of the world as well…
Andrew: Oh.
Eric: … which is mentioned on Pottermore during the “History of Magic in North America” segment, which you can find on Pottermore. It is revealed that “Bartholomew Barebone was a No-Maj whose discovery of the American wizarding community (thanks to Dorcus Twelvetrees giving him vital information) led to the instatement of Rappaport’s Law in the United States in 1790, completely segregating the magical and nonmagical communities. Barebone was the descendant of Scourers, convinced to the reality of magic in society and devoted to destroying it.” So Bartholomew Barebone, which is Credence’s ancestor, wanted to destroy magic, and rejected the idea of magic. So it’s very much… you can definitely see how that translates to Credence sort of hating himself or repressing the magic inside himself.
Andrew: Yeah. Hmm. So he’s what in relation to Mary Lou, I wonder?
Eric: Yeah. Well, considering that this Bartholomew Barebone was descended from Scourers, the Second Salemers are the same way. So I mean, I would guess it’s more Mary Lou who’s directly descended from this guy.
Andrew: Right. No, yeah, I understand. That’s what I meant.
Eric: And they were probably all raised the same way, brought up from the ground up thinking that magic is unnatural and you should root it out.
Andrew: Yeah, okay. All right, well, that wraps up our discussion on Credence, unless anyone had any other thoughts.
Eric: Can’t wait to see more of him.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Lauren, who’s listening live right now, says, “You should have seen my husband’s face when you guys said wizard porn name for Barebone. Lol.”
[Eric and Juliana laugh]
Eric: Well, hello to you and your husband. Glad you’re listening live.
Andrew: Sorry, Lauren’s husband. [laughs]
Voicemails
Andrew: So we have some voicemails here. We got some good ones this week.
Eric: Love it.
Andrew: Let’s listen to this first one.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hello? Hello? MuggleCast? Hello? This is Ron… this is Don Weaselton. Right, Don Weaselton. MuggleCast, are you there? Can you hear me? [There’s nobody on the line, Ron. It’s voicemail.] What? Really? Muggles can send their voices in the mail? That’s brilliant! Why don’t we have something like that? [I believe it’s called a Patronus.] Oh, right. Well, anyway, MuggleCast, I love the show, big fan and all, but it sounds like you’re a little fuzzy on some of the facts. See, it was actually Harry’s best friend Ron who really defeated You-Know-Who. [Oh, please.] No, really. Wait, hear me out, hear me out. [Ronald.] Hermione, later. Can’t you see I’m on the phone? Sorry, are you still there? [Nobody’s there, Ron.] Oh, right. Well, as I was saying… [Ronald Weasley, that phone line is reserved for official business with the Muggle Prime Minister.] Well, I was just… [Ronald!] Oh, fine. Well, sorry, MuggleCast, I’ve got to go, but before I do, Rose, you go say hi to the Muggles. [Hi MuggleCast!] How do I stop this damn thing? [Give it here.]”
[Voicemail ends]
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Look at that! Ron Weasley calling in. Not so good with voicemails, but…
[Juliana laughs]
Micah: Very well done.
Andrew: Thank you, Ron.
Eric: That’s an award… I want to give all of the highest honors and awards to this voicemail.
Andrew: Well, hold on. The Dumbledore caller a couple months ago was very good as well.
Eric: Yeah, but they even had a Rose and Hugo here. Come on, that’s amazing.
Andrew: Oh, that’s true. Okay.
[Juliana laughs]
Andrew: Thank you. Thank you, Ron. Wink, wink. [laughs] Okay, these next voicemails are all real people. Here we go.
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
[Voicemail plays]
“Hi, I’m Bree from Indianapolis, Indiana. Longtime listener, first time caller. I was listening back to the Queenie episode from a few weeks ago, and you brought up the point about how if Queenie were more transparent about her Legilimency, that it could be advantageous to her career, even that she might advance through the ranks to be an Auror or to head a department, because those at MACUSA would see her as a weapon or something they could use against others, and I just wanted to say that I disagree. I think that those at MACUSA would find it off-putting. I’m a manager, I have a team myself, and if I had an employee who could see what I was thinking or could sense my insecurities and my doubts, that I would be left very vulnerable. I don’t think her superiors would appreciate that she could read their minds. I think that leaves them in a very, again, vulnerable position. So I think it’s probably a good thing that she’s keeping her Legilimency under wraps; it could be damaging to her career if she were open about it. I do not think her superiors would see it as a weapon. Love you guys; listening to you for ten years. Thanks, bye.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: I thought that was an interesting comment. Maybe Queenie is kind of doomed in terms of the job department.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: She might be sticking where she is for a while.
Micah: But she can still read their minds, whether or not she works for them, right?
Andrew: Yeah. So you’re saying she might do it secretly or something?
Micah: No, look, I think it’s a great point that Bree makes, and it could definitely create a difficult situation for her if she was to reveal that she was a Legilimens, but I’m sure there’s a place within MACUSA that she would be able to do her job effectively and efficiently. Maybe there are others like her out there that we just don’t know.
Eric: Maybe a team of them that could be like a Suicide Squad, but of Legilimens.
Micah: Yeah, exactly.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I mean, imagine her ability in interrogation.
Eric: Oh, it would be amazing.
Micah: Yeah, and especially where we’re headed. We’re headed to a very dark time, it seems like, both in the US and abroad, so having somebody with that level of ability to read somebody’s mind, I think, is a very, very powerful advantage to whomever decides to use it.
Eric: I think that for now her closest friends will be the only ones who know and find out, and she’ll probably want it that way, because although she could be part of an elite team within the government should she come out, I think it would be a lonely existence, because most people, if they found out, would hold her at an arm’s length.
Andrew: This next voicemail also responds to a recent discussion.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Lauren from Nashville. I’ve been a listener for about six months now, and loving every minute of it; became a patron. And I wanted to talk about Clara’s theory with Grindelwald having his magic maybe taken away, like what does that open up for wizard prisons? I’m thinking more of forced sterilization, Nazi type stuff. That’s where my mind went. If we’re able to take a wizard’s magic away, where does that stop? So I do really like the theory that Grindelwald had his magic taken away, and I think it also could be that he just kind of gave up on being a villain and just is sitting rotting in jail. But I would like to explore that a little bit more. What would be the social ramifications in the wizarding world if that was a possibility to take away a wizard’s powers? Also wanted to say that I hope to see you guys at MuggleNet Live. I’m excited for that. Booking my tickets right now; it’s my birthday present to myself. Happy birthday me. You guys have a great afternoon, and I’ll talk to you later. Bye.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: Happy birthday, Lauren, and thanks for your support.
Eric: Happy birthday, Lauren! We’ll see you at MuggleNet Live.
Andrew: Woop-woop! So I think having a wizard’s magic taken away could be as hotly debated in the wizarding world as, say, the death penalty, because it is such an important aspect of a person. So maybe there are these long drawn-out trials where it is debated. Maybe there are people who very strongly disagree with taking wizards’ magic away, for the same reason that Lauren is saying: Where does that stop? If you’re in support of this, do you wonder, “Could it happen to me? Could I one day do something that has my magic taken away?”
Eric: Yeah. Well, if it is possible, if this is something that is able to be happened, I think it would only ever be used in the most extreme circumstances. I mean, Grindelwald is one of a kind, and after Voldemort, Grindelwald, I guess, is two of a kind, but he really was the worst of the worst. We know that present day 1990s Harry Potter series time, the absolute worst of the worst are just chucked into Azkaban where they can fairly easily escape due to the fact that Dementors are pretty much the only thing keeping them there, keeping them subdued, keeping them from escaping. It’s this idea that these Dementors – I mean, not to downplay it – they bring this state of depression and anxiety and make you relive all your worst experiences and suck all the happiness out of you. I get it, I get it. But there aren’t other wizards who are just… you don’t find out that other people have had their magic stripped, so if it ever happens, or if it’s something that can be done, let’s assume it was only ever done to Grindelwald. And I think that is something that Dumbledore would have been able to speak out about why it was necessary and convince the rest of the world that… or maybe it just wasn’t publicized, but I think Dumbledore would think it was for the best, maybe because Grindelwald just would not be stopped otherwise.
Micah: Right. I go back to the word “defeated,” because clearly he didn’t kill him; what does defeat entail? And that’s kind of where the idea of stripping him of his powers came from. And we know that he’s being held in Nurmengard, which is a prison he himself built, and it’s very reminiscent of concentration camps during World War II. We’re led to believe that he captures people and holds them there, and I think somebody… it was either Andrew or Eric who brought it up on the last episode, that if he’s being held in Nurmengard, you would think that he would know how to escape. He would have the ability to get out because he built the place. So if he doesn’t have that ability, it makes me think that his magical ability has somehow been lessened or completely removed so that he doesn’t have the ability to do that. So I think the larger implication of that could be really, really disastrous for the larger community if people have the knowledge in terms of how to remove somebody’s magical ability. I don’t think it’s… I don’t know. Maybe we get to a point in a later Fantastic Beasts film where that is in fact what Grindelwald is doing. He’s removing people’s magical ability; he’s imprisoning them.
Eric: Oh, God.
Micah: It would fall in line, I think, with a lot of what transpired in the real world during World War II, so I think we may just have to wait and see, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Also, just given Obscurials and what they represent, right? This manifestation of power. You’re trying to extract that power out from somebody so that they can almost be returned to normal, in a way.
Eric: There’s also a possibility that it was accidental, that Grindelwald does lose his magical power, but it’s through some kind of freak accident because he was experimenting with magic and what it means to be a wizard, and it backfired.
Juliana: I would think that would be more likely, because if a wizard could take someone else’s power away, I feel like that’s something Voldemort would have loved to use on Muggle-borns, and then you don’t have to worry about them wielding a wand, and that would solve a lot of his issues.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, good point. All right, Micah, this next voicemail is for you.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hi, MuggleCast. This is Andrew Iskander, listening from San Jose, California. Just wanted to say I recently watched Puffs about a week ago in New York. Just got back from my vacation, got a chance to give you guys a call. Wanted to say thank you so much, especially to Micah, who let us know about it. It was absolutely fantastic, a definite must-see if you’re in New York. Super funny, absolutely amazing, so thanks again.”
[Voicemail ends]
Andrew: Awesome. Look at that, Micah. You made someone’s day.
Micah: There you go. I’m glad they enjoyed it. Andrew, now you’re on the east coast, are you going to make the trip to go see it?
Andrew: Yeah, I think so. I’m actually in New York right now, but I just didn’t have time. I’m with somebody who it’s his first time in New York, and so with no disrespect at all to Puffs… [laughs]
Micah: “Let’s go see Puffs.” That’s the first thing you should say.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: No, I wanted to go with him to a Broadway show, and no offense to Puffs at all, but I wanted to see something with a Playbill. So we went and saw Kinky Boots, which was very good.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Micah: It’s the same thing, basically. I mean…
Andrew: Nah, it had Brendon Urie, and I felt like I was at a Panic! at the Disco show. It was great.
Eric: Oh, cool.
Micah: I was going to say, forget about the Empire State Building, Central Park, Statue of Liberty…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Puffs.
Micah: … go see Puffs.
Eric: And Kinky Boots.
Andrew: Next time… no, I’m sure it’s very good, and I really can’t wait to see it. But next time I’m here, next time. Okay, one more voicemail. This kind of looks back on 20 years.
[Voicemail plays]
“Hey, this is Trevor over in Oregon. Andrew, I used to live in Los Angeles, and then I moved back to Oregon, so I can relate with that. Regardless, I was just listening to your latest podcast on the 20th anniversary. I was wondering if any of you guys remember the characters before the movies. I know I had envisioned them looking slightly different, maybe more along the lines of the book covers. And I remember completely mispronouncing Hermione’s name; I think I was saying ‘Her-min-ee’ for a long time. I just didn’t know how to say her name, so I thought that was kind of funny. Anyway, love you guys. And longtime listener; I know I need to sign up for Patreon. I’m slow. I’ll do it sooner or later. Bye.”
[Voicemail ends]
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Andrew: I like how people… he felt like he had to say that for some reason.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: Otherwise we wouldn’t play his voicemail.
Andrew: Right. Yeah, that’s the only reason we played it, because he promised he was going to sign up for Patreon. No, yeah, I was the same way in terms of pronouncing “Hermione” wrong. I think I was reading it as “Hermy-own,” not “Her-my-oh-nee.”
Juliana: Yeah, same.
Eric: Well, there’s that whole scene in Goblet of Fire where she’s explaining it to Krum, and that’s very much a head nod or J.K. Rowling’s way of also explaining it to the worldwide audience.
Andrew: Yeah, and also Seamus. “See-mus,” “Shay-mus.” I still don’t know what the right way to pronounce that is. [laughs]
Eric: No, I’m so jealous of people who got to read the books and understood what it was like before the movies were out, but I’m not that person. I saw the movie first. So the interesting idea of “Remember what characters looked like in your head?” and all of that, before the movies came and presumably took over. That said, there are some characters, I think, that are still different in my head from the picture.
Andrew: Like who?
Eric: Probably Lupin and Sirius, honestly. I see them a little differently. I don’t see my Sirius as Gary Oldman or my Snape as Alan Rickman, necessarily. I think Snape, too, because he’s just so much more actively evil in the books at times, the peaceful Alan Rickman quietness just doesn’t serve.
Andrew: Yeah, at this point I think how they look in the movies is how I imagine them when I’m reading the books, which isn’t a problem for me; it never bothered me. But I think like Trevor, I think his name was? The caller? Yeah, I was definitely imagining how they looked on the covers for starters. But this was also why it kind of bothers me looking at the photos of the new Cursed Child cast, because a year ago we got adjusted to these new people who are playing official Harry Potter roles, and then here we are one year later and we have to re-accept what these characters look like, and it’s hard for me to wrap my head around, so I’m trying to keep them out of the picture.
Eric and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: I started reading the books in ’05, so that was already when I think Half-Blood Prince was just being released, and Order the Phoenix was just being released in theaters. So from a character standpoint, it’s really hard to say. I mean, that really only leaves Books 6 and 7 to have new characters pop up that maybe I would have a different vision on what they would look like in the films or in my head. But I think much like you, Andrew, the movies really influenced a lot of how I saw the characters when I was reading the books.
Andrew: But speaking of the books, the illustrated editions, when I look through those, I really… I’m like, “Wow, these are kind of how I picture them in my head.” And they do draw a little bit of influence from the movies, I believe. Harry looks like a young Dan Radcliffe.
Juliana: Yeah, he looks the most similar out of everybody.
Andrew: All right, well, I think that does it for this week’s episode. Couple reminders: If you want to leave us a voicemail… one of these voicemails we’re going to hold for next week. There’s a hot new fan film that’s kind of going viral online.
Eric: Oooh.
Andrew: So we’ll talk about that a little bit next week. But if you want to leave a voicemail, the number is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. It’s an American number. You can also write into our PO box: 4044 North Lincoln Avenue, box number 144, Chicago, IL, 60618. And by the way, Slug Club member patrons, for those who signed up within that first month, they are going to be getting a sticker set soon. I have all the stickers, I have something to hold them in to get to everybody, so look forward to those in the weeks ahead. And like one of the callers mentioned, we’re going to be at MuggleNet Live, right, Eric?
Eric: Yeah, as Lauren said, we’ll be there. It’s September 1 of this year, which is the 19th anniversary, it’s the 19 years later, the date of the Deathly Hallows epilogue. So we’ll be inside the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, Universal Orlando in Florida, and it’s going to be amazing. It’s an entire evening access, exclusive access to the park and to the shops, and the Escape from Gringotts ride. We’ll be able to get on the Hogwarts Express at Platform Nine and Three Quarters and take it to Hogsmeade and back, and we’ll be joined by some of the actors and actresses from the Harry Potter films, including Christian Coulson, who played Tom Marvolo Riddle; Chris Rankin, Percy Weasley; Luke Youngblood, who played Lee Jordan; as well as Ellie Darcey-Alden, Rohan Gotobed, Ryan Turner, and Arthur Bowen, who were the younger children in the epilogue, as well as other areas. So total fantastic evening. To find out all about it, and to get our referral link, go to the MuggleCast website – it’s the first post on top – and you can use the code “MUGGLECAST” while booking your ticket to get $10 off your ticket order.
Andrew: Awesome. Micah and I will also be leading an expedition backstage at Universal Orlando where we will be scoping out any signs of a potential Wizarding World expansion.
Micah: That is correct.
Andrew: This is not endorsed by Universal, but we thought we’d have some fun and make for a good story on the show.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: And, well, we need to talk to the police to make sure we don’t get arrested.
Eric: Yeah, I was going to wonder how this works. Micah would lift the fence, you would sneak under it, and I would be somewhere in the park just talking to people to distract them, right?
Micah: You would be talking to the police to distract them.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: Eric doesn’t like to get in trouble.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: But Micah and I, we don’t mind, so we’re going to put this together.
Eric: Yeah, I’ll distract the cops. I’ll give them my theory on, I don’t know, some crazy Harry Potter theory.
Andrew: On Barebone.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: “Police, what’s the deal with Barebone?”
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Eric: Well, I just assume we’re talking about them next week, the Second Salemers in general, Mary Lou, Chastity, and the rest. And we’re going to… send us your feedback, everybody, on the name Barebone, and what you think it means.
Andrew: Oh, God.
[Andrew and Juliana laugh]
Andrew: Keep it kid-friendly.
Micah: Next week’s episode will be filtered for those that are 13 years of age and younger.
Eric: It’s going to get kicked off YouTube for content. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, right. Juliana, thanks so much for joining us. Hope you had a good time.
Juliana: I did. Thank you so much for having me.
Andrew: No problem.
Eric: Thanks for being in our Slug Club!
Juliana: Of course.
Andrew: Yeah, how long have you been a MuggleCast listener?
Juliana: Oh, God. Probably a solid eight or nine years.
Eric: Love it.
Andrew: Awesome, awesome.
Juliana: It’s been a while.
Andrew: That is awesome. Well, thank you so much for being a longtime listener. And thanks, everybody at home, for listening. We’ll see you next week for 324. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Juliana: And I’m Juliana.
Andrew: Bye, everybody!
Eric and Micah: Bye.