Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #422, Fawkes Unites (HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast Episode 422. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Andrew: Welcome back, Micah.
Micah: Thanks.
Andrew: Where have you been?
Micah: All over the place.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I think we were talking earlier in the week, and I said something along the lines of ten flights in the last five weeks?
Eric: Oh, gosh.
Andrew: That doesn’t sound very fun.
Micah: Some of it was fun. Some of it was travel for fun, but most of it was travel for work.
Andrew: Okay.
Micah: I was in Chicago, where I saw both of you, and then I was in Montana, I was in Washington DC, I was in Atlanta… so it was quite a few weeks of travel, but I’m happy to be back. I listened to all the episodes.
Andrew: Good.
Micah: You guys did a great job.
Andrew: Oh, thanks.
Eric: I was going to say, it’s a shame that Wizards Unite only opened now, because it would have been… you probably could have found some interesting Confoundables over in Montana and all in your travels. Would have been a great opportunity to get outdoors.
Micah: I know. I was in so many airports.
Andrew: Yeah, who’s going to save us from the Calamity in Montana now without Micah there?
Micah: It’s true. I had layovers in Minnesota and Salt Lake City; I mean, who knows what I could have found in those places?
Eric: You would’ve found Mr. Mime, for crying out loud.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: I have Mr. Mime, okay? I have Mr. Mime.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Let’s not get too excited about Micah’s return, though, because he is away next week as well.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: I’ll be in your home state of New Jersey, Andrew.
Andrew: Great, great. But then after that, he’s back, and never leaving us again. That’s the deal. [laughs]
Micah: And just to prove that I did listen to those episodes, I’m not sitting in the sidecar, Andrew.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: You’re welcome to sit in the motorbike, Micah. Motorbike Micah. Anyway, we have one of our Slug Club members here with us this week, Chloe. Hi, Chloe.
Chloe: Hi, guys.
Andrew: Thanks for your support on Patreon, and let’s get your fandom ID.
Chloe: Sure, so my favorite book is Prisoner of Azkaban, favorite movie is probably Sorcerer’s Stone, I’m a Hufflepuff and a Pukwudgie, my Patronus is an eagle owl, and for the question I would ask J.K. Rowling, I think you guys have touched on a lot of the good, hard-hitting ones, so I thought I would do a more fun one. I want to know more about Florean Fortescue’s ice cream parlor, because you’re not telling me that Honeyduke’s is so cool and has this crazy description, and that’s just a normal ice cream place? You know there’s got to be more going on there.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Oooh, interesting. Well, next time you’re in the Wizarding World theme park, you can poke around there. Maybe find some answers for us.
Chloe: [laughs] Yeah, I might have to do that.
Eric: Like, if you drop a scoop of ice cream, it’ll magically clean itself off and float back to your cone.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Ooh.
Eric: That’d be pretty cool.
Andrew: As long as it cleans itself off, sure.
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Chloe is in Los Angeles. Do you go to the Wizarding World from time to time there?
Chloe: I do. It’s been a while, but I’ve definitely been there a good number of times. I still need to make it down to Orlando, though.
Andrew: Oh, you haven’t been to that one?
Chloe: No.
Andrew: Maybe you shouldn’t go to the Orlando one, because that one’s just so much better than the Hollywood one that you’ll be like, “Oh, what’s the point of this Hollywood one?”
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Chloe: Though we have Disneyland, which is better than Disney World in a lot of ways, so it’s a trade-off.
Andrew: I’m glad you agree. I am in full agreement about that.
News
Andrew: Anyway, so we mentioned Wizards Unite. We’re not going to spend this episode on it. We’ll touch on it for a moment; the main focus of this episode is Chapter by Chapter. Wizards Unite, everybody’s been playing it. It’s been out for a few days, at least in the USA and Canada, and in Australia, New Zealand… I understand over the weekend some other European countries started getting it as well. What do you guys think?
Eric: Overall, very positive. I think it’s a lot of fun.
Chloe: I’ve only gotten to play a little bit. I like that it seems to have a lot more going on than Pokémon Go did when it launched. The problem I ran into with that was the walking issue; I couldn’t get enough resources to really make any progress. I’m hoping that’s not going to be an issue here.
Andrew: I know some people have been concerned about the amount of spell points that you have at any given moment, and I know some people have been running out quite frequently, and that’s a problem especially in the suburbs, where you can’t check in to those Inns as often. I’m very lucky; I have an Inn literally the building next door, so I don’t even have to leave my couch to get spell points.
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I just sit there and swipe every five minutes and I’m good. But I like the game overall. Yesterday I was like, “You know what? Screw this; I’m not going to spend every day in this app,” because it does demand a lot of your time. There’s a lot to do, like Chloe said. But then this morning I got back into it, so I don’t know. I think I’m going to enjoy it. What do you think, Micah?
Micah: Yeah, as everybody’s kind of touched on, I haven’t had a whole lot of time to be able to really get into it, but I’m excited to play it. Had a friend actually download it yesterday as well. And I think once I’m back in the city, in New York working… not that I would ever take a break and play Wizards Unite while I’m at work, but there’s just so much more going on around me in that type of a setting, kind of like what you were talking about earlier in our hangout, where there’s not as much happening in the suburbs. And so right now, if I open up the app, there’s literally nothing that’s going on around me except a few owls flying by, but if I was in midtown Manhattan, let’s say, there’s probably a million and one different things going on, just given the number of people that are there.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: That’s the thing that I did yesterday. So it’s June 23 when we’re recording, so it’s three days after the 16th anniversary of Book 5 coming out. And I went back to the spot where I got Book 5, out in Oak Park, Illinois, on the avenue there, and that was where I started playing Wizards Unite properly.
Andrew: [laughs] That’s beautiful.
Eric: Because I’m nothing if not nostalgic.
Andrew: Clearly.
Eric: But the coolest thing… the bookstore closed. The bookstore was the Magic Tree Bookstore. But the sign, the awning is still up, so I fought a Death Eater in the front foyer area and took a bunch of screenshots in my augmented reality, because I love how it places very recognizable Death Eaters and Acromantulas, all this stuff, overtop of reality. So I have images of me fighting these creatures right in front of the bookstore, and it’s really… it was a very cathartic experience, but also just very cool. I love the detail. There’s even a Mr. Filch and Mrs. Norris that you can find, a Luna Lovegood… I feel like I’ve just scratched the surface of encounters. But it’s real cool how they’re in your world, because in a very short… in a way of saying this concisely, it does what we wanted all along by making the wizarding world real and overtop of our own.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good point. I agree with you a lot there. And like I said, we’re going to spend all of next week’s episode talking about the game, tips and tricks, if we think we’re going to play it for a while…
Eric: Yes.
Andrew: And we want everybody’s feedback, so please write or call in with your feedback since the focus of next week’s episode will be Wizards Unite, and I’m looking forward to talking about it. Laura will be back for that episode. By the way, she couldn’t make this week’s episode because of a personal matter. She’s not avoiding Micah. Don’t worry, everybody.
[Chloe laughs]
Eric: Yeah, it’s been a while since we’ve seen Laura and Micah on the same podcast.
Andrew: Why? Yeah, hmm. Theories, theories. The MuggleCast Reddit is alive with theories.
Eric: [laughs] Is there a MuggleCast Reddit?
Andrew: I don’t think so.
Eric: Oh, okay.
Micah: We are not the same person, if that’s where you were going with that.
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Andrew: That’s not where I was going with that.
Micah: But I was actually disappointed I didn’t get a chance… I mentioned I was down in Atlanta; I didn’t get a chance to see Laura.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, it’s too bad. But of course, Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure has now been open for a week or two. Little drama there: Universal announced a few days ago that the ride is going to be opening midday for the next few weeks. It’s not opening when the park opens. And the phrase “midday” is a little broad, so I mean, it could open as late as 2:00 or 3:00 p.m. any given day.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: They said, “This is our most sophisticated, high-performance ride system ever – and our team needs time to take care of the ride’s daily maintenance and technical support. It’s been challenging for them to do that with our current operating schedule. So to make sure our team has the time it needs, we’ll be opening the ride at midday for the next couple of weeks.” Kind of a bummer. Here’s the problem: They kind of rushed this into opening, I think. Clearly the ride is safe, but the ride needs more time… they need more time to get the ride right, and I think they were feeling the pressure from Disney opening Galaxy’s Edge. They wanted to have their own ride to tout, to remind everybody about Universal. Plus, they’ve got this great new hotel that’s opening, I think, within days now. So they just really wanted to get it open in June, and it just wasn’t ready.
Eric: I think, too… I wanted to just say congratulations to Harry Potter fans. We broke the ride, just like we used to break J.K. Rowling’s website and the Internet and Pottermore and all this stuff when we go on it. But my biggest concern is, do they still let people queue for it if they’re opening in the midday?
Andrew: No. No, they don’t.
Eric: Because that’s the problem, is you kind of have to, what, hover around the area until midday?
Andrew: Right.
Eric: I really worry… well, I don’t worry, but I just wonder how that all is working logistically, because people really want to ride this thing. Did it make more sense for them to have waited a month? I don’t know.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, and from my understanding, they didn’t even do any soft openings, and that’s how all rides usually get tested. They let a few people in before it officially opens so they can get the hang of the ride and know what they’re going to need to do maintenance-wise and all that. I have no doubts this is extremely complicated, and Universal is doing their best, but it does sound like it needed a little more time. That said, I’m sure they’ll have it worked out soon, and it will open when the park opens. [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, that was going to be a question that I had, is if you’re looking at people who are staying on Universal properties and looking to get into the parks early, particularly to get on a ride like this, it doesn’t bring any value.
Andrew: Right, it’s a letdown. And you may have planned your trip around this ride, because we’ve known for a while that it’s opening in June, so you may have planned to go there around opening. Anyway, we’re going to be down there in August. Hopefully it’ll be resolved by then, because we’re going to want to ride it at least twice. I need Eric and Micah to try the motorbike and the sidecar.
Eric: [laughs] You’re not getting me in that sidecar.
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Andrew: You’ve got to try it!
Eric: I actually… no, I do have to try it. You know what I heard? And this is worth mentioning: Carla, who I mentioned last week, who was in the line for ten hours, actually said that she preferred the sidecar, or tried the sidecar and was perfectly happy with it, because she is not a big roller coaster person, and so she actually felt more safe and more… I guess you’re kind of enclosed in the sidecar a little bit. So maybe that’s the value that the sidecar brings to the ride, is for people who really don’t want to be out there gripping handlebars on a roller coaster.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s perfectly fair. Before we continue, we have a word from June’s sponsor, a sponsor for every single one of you: the Wizarding World Figurine Collection from Eaglemoss Hero Collector. These are officially authorized by Warner Bros., and figurines depicting beloved characters from both Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts are available. From Harry and Hermione, to Newt and Queenie, to Fawkes and the Occamy, every figurine has been sculpted in a classic movie pose at 1:16 scale. The Wizarding World Figurine Collection lets you dress up your Harry Potter shelves with landscapes of your favorite characters. These will be beautiful additions to your displays. I have a guest bedroom, and I’ve got a collection of them on a shelf to remind people who stay with me that I am obsessed with Harry Potter. Micah, you got these figurines as well, right?
Micah: Yeah, they’re really great. I really love the attention to detail that’s provided, and just the fact that there’s so many different options, from Voldemort to Dumbledore, then going into the Fantastic Beasts series. I just have them set up around my room, and I just think that they did a really great job. These are definitely collectibles that I think any Potter fan is going to want to have.
Andrew: Yeah, they feel like collectibles. That’s a good point. You can sign up for the collection at HeroCollector.com/Wizards and get your first figurine, a spell-casting Harry Potter as seen at the Battle of Hogwarts, for only $9.95 with free shipping. Do it now and Hero Collector will add Hermione Granger as a year one student for free. In addition, you will receive a free and exclusive art print, and then thereafter, two new figurines with detailed character guides and an art print will be delivered each month for only $15.95 plus $2.45 shipping each. As a subscriber, you’re also eligible for special offers and free gifts personalized to the Hogwarts House of your choice. Plus, you may cancel your subscription at any time, so there’s no big commitment here. For full details and to take advantage of this special offer, visit HeroCollector.com/Wizards, and by signing up for a subscription, you’ll be supporting MuggleCast. So thank you, and enjoy these awesome figurines. And thank you so much to them for sponsoring the show in June.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: Time now for Chapter by Chapter, and we are discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 29 – the penultimate chapter in the book – “The Phoenix Lament.” Time now for the Seven-Word Summary, and Chloe, you’re going to kick it off.
Chloe: Oh, this is lot of pressure. [laughs]
Andrew: It is.
Chloe: After…
Andrew: Ooh.
Micah: … Dumbledore’s…
Eric: … death…
Andrew: … Harry…
Chloe: [laughs] This is harder than it seems.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: This is the crucial word. This changes the direction of the rest of the summary here.
Chloe: … regroups…
Micah: … with…
Eric: … friends.
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Micah: Well done.
Andrew: What a dramatic pause for “friends.”
Eric: I wanted to say “team,” but it would have been better “the team.” Yeah, “friends.” That works.
Micah: “Friends” works.
Andrew: Friends, team. All good.
Micah: Well done.
Eric: Yeah. [laughs] It’s just not the happy reunion we were all hoping for.
Andrew: No.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: Yeah, and we’re dealing with the aftermath of Dumbledore’s death, and Harry is regrouping with his friends, as Eric put it, and actually has to share quite a bit of information with them, which we’ll get to. But as Harry is making his way to, I guess, the infirmary where a lot of the injured are, it’s noted that “Gryffindor rubies glistened on the floor like drops of blood.” And I thought this was pretty haunting imagery to start the chapter out with, and I was just wondering, do we think it’s written this way to reflect what’s just happened to Dumbledore, presumably a Gryffindor, and to Hogwarts overall?
Andrew: Yeah, I do. I think it’s symbolic of the state of the school. In a way, it’s broken. In a way, they’ve… well, not in a way; they have lost one of the most important people at the school. And also, just literally speaking, there was a battle that happened here, so stuff like that happens.
Eric: Yeah. Well, it’s really super foreboding. Even though Ginny – who’s walking up to the infirmary with Harry – informs him that none of their side is dead, except for Dumbledore, he’s still… there does seem to be some kind of uncertainty with Bill, and it’s not something that… when he’s walking up to the hospital wing and the rubies look like drops of blood, it just kind of beautifully illustrates where his head is at. This is not a happy-go-lucky trip.
Chloe: I think it’s also interesting because in the books up until now, House points and the House Cup have been a really big focus for the characters, and now with that broken, it’s symbolic of none of that mattering anymore, too.
Eric: Wow.
Andrew: Oh, yeah, that’s a good point.
Micah: Yeah, that’s a great point. And I think you touched on it in some of the other episodes, but they, for the most part, really left out the battle in Half-Blood Prince, and I think it was because they said that there was a bigger battle coming in Deathly Hallows. But I would have liked to see a little bit of it. I know we get Bellatrix – who’s not even in the book – in the movie, kind of going through and destroying things. But it would have made, I think, for a little bit more climactic end to the Half-Blood Prince movie, because I really don’t feel like it was done that much justice. What do you guys think?
Andrew: Yeah, it was a downer of an ending to a movie. Dumbledore dies and that’s just it.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: I watched the movie a few weeks ago – I think I brought this up on the show – and I was just like, “Oh, there’s really no excitement here.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: It almost doesn’t feel like an ending to a movie.
Eric: Well, I would argue, too, though, that the book is much the same way. Now, there is a climactic battle, but Harry just feels this tremendous loss. And the idea that you’ve spent this whole book learning about Horcruxes, and Harry comes away from this – Dumbledore’s last outing – empty-handed, with some kind of fraud, doesn’t really leave you a lot to… you don’t know what to think of what’s coming. And I think that uncertainty is what they kind of went with for the movie, of “We don’t know how it’s going to happen.”
Micah: Yeah. And I think there’s also some interviews with David Yates where he talks about why they decided not to move forward with Dumbledore’s funeral in the movie, and I think we’ll probably talk more about that when we discuss the final chapter of Half-Blood Prince, but I thought it was a big mistake, because you’re not paying tribute to one of the more iconic characters in the series. And we can, again, get into that a little bit more in that episode, but I thought that that was another big miss they just decided to cut out.
Eric: I think the film would have been way different if those scenes had been included. It’s just that the books have such a larger world; all the people that come to Dumbledore’s funeral, and you’re like, “Oh yeah, I remember you.” It wouldn’t have made much sense to have to reintroduce all those characters in the movie, so I don’t know. I agree and disagree with the adaptation.
Micah: Right. So in addition to what’s happened to Dumbledore, there are a few of the Order who have been injured, a few classmates that have been injured. We learn that Bill has been “bitten” by Fenrir Greyback, or at least attacked in a manner that is going to affect him in some capacity for the rest of his life. Fenrir wasn’t fully transformed, so there’s no way to really know, right now, what the effects of that is going to be on Bill, and there’s some discussion with Lupin, and Lupin isn’t entirely sure either. We also learn that Neville and Flitwick were injured but are okay. What do we make of the whole Bill now potentially becoming a werewolf? And this ties into the scene a little bit later on in the chapter when Mr. and Mrs. Weasley show up and Fleur shows up, and they finally kind of bond with each other over what has happened to Bill.
Eric: I just can’t picture a grown human male coming and gnawing on your face like Bill had with Greyback. [laughs] Greyback’s attack just is the most horrific… my mind is picturing it, and I don’t want to be picturing it. If he wasn’t transformed, and he’s just going around biting people, put him in the corner. Make him wear a dunce cap. Time out for you, sir.
Andrew: Well, he’s a baddie. That’s what baddies do. They bite people’s faces off.
Eric: I guess.
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a horrific development, and I actually do have a couple points that I want to make about it in terms of how Fleur and Molly react, but maybe I’ll save that till we get to that part of the chapter.
Micah: Yep. And what this also made me think about, too, is how somebody like Greyback is allowed into Hogwarts. Draco clearly did not think through what he was doing. And I think that… obviously any Death Eater is a threat to the students, the professors, but somebody like Greyback, who preys on children – and Lupin is the perfect example of that – to be allowed into a school where it’s basically like a feast for him is really, really dangerous.
Eric: I think in the previous chapter… I could be wrong, but I think Draco specifically says he did not invite Fenrir, that he didn’t want him to come, and then it’s just like he burst through. Seems a lot like it’s in his character.
Andrew: Yeah, and this was actually going to be the point that I make: Could Draco tell Fenrir “No”? If Fenrir wants to come, he’s going to come.
Micah: Right.
Eric: Yeah, Draco is clearly in over his head.
Andrew: Draco is a little twerp who has no sway over what these Death Eaters do, even despite who his father is, I think.
Micah: Exactly.
Andrew: [laughs] Especially when it’s somebody who bites people’s faces off.
Eric: Fenrir must be from Florida.
Andrew: And I guess the Death Eaters are just like, “Well, he’s on our side, so I guess we’ll take him anyway. Yeah, that’s pretty creepy that he bites people’s faces off, but he’s team Voldemort, so we’re cool with that.”
Eric: That’s exactly it. These people – the Death Eaters – should really keep in check who they associate with, because who they associate with says a lot about them. The ones that want to pretend that they’re not really that evil are in a group with some of the most evil creatures and people on the planet, and they want to say, “Oh, we’re not bad people,” but then they enable someone… Draco, for instance, enables somebody like Fenrir to come to the school.
Chloe: Do they care about that, though? Because it seems at this point like the tide is swaying in Voldemort’s direction, and it’s less about keeping up those pretenses, and more just like, “Let the chaos happen.”
Eric: Yeah, their inner evil is really revealed now that it’s become more socially acceptable.
Micah: And particularly with Bill, Ron wants to find a solution. He wants somebody who could potentially help, and he brings up Dumbledore, and that’s when Harry lets this group know that Dumbledore is dead. And Lupin has a moment, and I’ll just read quickly here from the text, where it says that “Harry had never seen Lupin lose control before; he felt as though he was intruding upon something private, indecent.” And I was just wondering what exactly is happening with Lupin here? Is it more so that Dumbledore was, in a way, a father figure to him, and really took him in during his time at Hogwarts, provided for him despite his condition? It could also just be larger than that, having lost a friend. But I thought for Harry in particular, to see Lupin in this type of state… we’ve not seen it before.
Eric: Right.
Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s both things that are hitting Lupin at the same time. He’s the most powerful wizard of all time, and now he’s gone. We don’t have the quote in here, but it’s kind of a striking response when Lupin finds out that Dumbledore is dead, and I think the way J.K. Rowling describes the scene here from Harry’s perspective is really interesting about Harry feeling like he’s intruding upon something private. I think this is a situation that we’ve all felt before, where you see somebody – maybe family, like a mom or dad, like Lupin is to Harry – crying for the first time, and you don’t want to be there watching because you feel like you shouldn’t be within this private moment of mourning that this person is experiencing.
Eric: Right. Yeah, it’s interesting to watch all of these characters, and after Lupin and McGonagall, all cope with this tremendous loss. It’s just a tremendous loss to the wizarding world in general, and that’s kind of the through line, the thread that they all share, that they can bond over. But ultimately, each character has to mourn Dumbledore and who he was to them in their own way. But being on the receiving end of this news in a group setting means that the group is going to see some of that little mourning in your own way kind of leak out. McGonagall… I think it’s Lupin that conjures a chair for her so that she doesn’t just fall over. It’s really… having to find out not only that Dumbledore is dead, but also that Snape is the one who did it, ends up facilitating a lot of conversation in this chapter, but is really just one of the lowest points in the series for everybody. It is a crippling defeat. And so maybe that’s to your point, Andrew, about the ending of the sixth film feeling off, and maybe the ending of the book feels off. It’s just… it is a loss, not a win.
Micah: No. Although it is a win in a way that we find out later in the series.
Eric: How’s that?
Andrew: Well, it was just all part of the plan.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: Is that what you mean, Micah? “It’s over. Voldemort wins.” [laughs]
Micah: Yeah, it’s not a “Rah-rah, let’s go” win.
Eric: Well, I mean, the Horcrux is a fake. They have no idea who RAB is, so… and Harry delivers that at the end of the chapter.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: But anyway.
Micah: And going on in the background while Harry is relaying this information is Fawkes, and it’s said that “a phoenix was singing in a way Harry had never heard before: a stricken lament of terrible beauty. […] It was his own grief turned magically to song that echoed across the grounds and through the castle windows.” So I’m not sure if it’s just Harry who is feeling this way, because we’ve always gotten a sense that there’s been a connection of sorts between him and Fawkes, but at least the song that was coming through from Fawkes is, in some small way, helping to heal and allowing Harry to cope with what’s going on.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: I love how they switch between discussions of what’s next and discussions about Dumbledore and about Snape, and then all of a sudden, silence falls as they take a couple seconds to listen to the music that they all hear, and then they pick it back up again. It’s really potent, really touching.
Andrew: Yeah. Eric put together a great discussion that we did on bonus MuggleCast last week about this whole scene and the relationship between Dumbledore and Fawkes, by the way, so you can check that out on Patreon. Also wanted to mention this line: “It seemed to ease their pain a little to listen to the sound of their mourning,” and I think that’s what’s going on here, Micah. It’s just… the song from Fawkes is just spreading like a potion. It’s just curing everybody, these notes that Fawkes is spreading. It’s uniting everybody, and it’s also calming everybody, and it’s also a good example of how bonding together in a time like this can help instead of grieving alone. I think it’s nice to know that everyone’s here and life is going to go on, even though right now is a really sad moment and a moment for grieving.
Micah: Agree.
Eric: It’s also a miracle that nobody else died. And this is mentioned briefly, but I know they’re mourning over Bill’s face or whatever…
Andrew: [laughs] “Bill, your face! Bill! Not the face!”
Eric: But the Felix Felicis really did save everyone’s lives. And Flitwick walks away with a bruise on his head from Snape, but everybody was in the perfect position to really battle and duel, and did, but survived. And that’s really uncanny. I think there’s really no time for it in the chapter, but while reading it, you can’t help but feel a little bit of relief, I think.
Andrew: It makes you wonder if J.K. Rowling was considering killing other characters. Maybe not, because she wanted the focus to remain on Dumbledore. If she killed another significant-ish character, the impact of Dumbledore’s death may have been lost.
Eric: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s true.
Andrew: And I also wonder if you… poor Bill. Yeah, his face has been ruined, but Dumbledore died.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I don’t know if I’d be too concerned about Bill’s face when Dumbledore died.
Eric: He’s got people to look after his face.
Andrew: Yeah, lucky guy. I wouldn’t be one of them.
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Chloe: I wonder if it was also just a way to use up the remaining lucky potion before we go into Deathly Hallows, because I think that kind of goes to the Time-Turner thing of, “Why can’t you just use that?”
Andrew: Right.
Chloe: Had to get it out of the way.
Andrew: “Sorry, y’all, there’s none left. Don’t ask me about it when you’re interviewing me about Deathly Hallows.”
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Eric: I was going to make the comment… that Felix potion goes a real long way.
Chloe: It does.
Eric: It goes longer than you’d think it should, almost, for how many people used it and were able to get the benefits of it. But I just think it’s really clever, because J.K. Rowling got to have a huge battle in the school, devastation, with Death Eaters, without anybody really dying except for Dumbledore, who was already fated to die. So she really had her cake and ate it too.
Micah: I just don’t think you could have added somebody on top of Dumbledore. Dumbledore was the big death at the end of Half-Blood Prince, and to have Bill or Flitwick or somebody else, it just wouldn’t have… would anybody really…? Not that they wouldn’t have felt anything, but it wouldn’t have had the same level of impact having just lost Dumbledore.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, maybe that’s why Lavender Brown’s death is uncertain, because J.K. Rowling didn’t want to add to Voldemort’s death and then have nobody care about Voldemort dying, because it’s like, “Oh my God, Lavender Brown died.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: So now Harry finally gets his moment, because he really just reveals everything that’s been going on throughout the course of the year. He talks about why Dumbledore trusted Snape, and there’s this whole debate that goes on, especially from Lupin’s end, talking about how Snape hated James, and Harry talks about same thing with Lily. But I think Harry couldn’t be farther from the truth, as it related to the way Snape felt about Lily, and so I’m wondering why those that at least went to school with Snape never revealed to Harry how he felt about Lily, or at least that they were friends. I’m not sure how much knowledge maybe there is on this side of things. Maybe Sirius and Lupin didn’t really know, but I would think that they would at least know something.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, I think they did know something; I think it was a question of whether or not Harry should know. It could have been… and there’s actually… one of our listeners, Gina, wrote in about this. She said when reading this chapter, Harry mentioned Snape not caring about James OR Lily. I can’t recall, but did no one ever tell Harry that Snape and Lily used to be best friends? In retrospect I am kind of mind-blown that this was never mentioned by Lupin or Sirius… forgive me if this is something that I’m just overseeing.” You are not alone, but I also went around the Internet looking for thoughts on this, because I wanted to make sure that this was accurate, and somebody brought up a good point on Reddit: Maybe Dumbledore told Sirius and Remus not to mention it to Harry. Or maybe they just thought it was irrelevant.
Eric: Yeah, it’s hard to tell whether they’re following orders right now. I think the only person who steadfastly sticks to Dumbledore’s orders is probably Harry – to a detriment – but maybe Remus didn’t think it was now the time to question it. It’s devastating to see Harry so wrong about Snape, but the way that it’s played is this is the disappointing part. Dumbledore really had no ammo, Snape was evil all along, and emotionally, that’s where you have to leave this whole thing at the end of Book 6, because you can’t have Lupin chiming in, “Well, actually, Snape loved your mom, and maybe that’s the secret,” and thinking Snape is a good guy. You can’t end this book thinking Snape is a good guy. There has to be that mystery.
Andrew: And also in the chapter, J.K. Rowling notes that Harry is looking for more negative information about Snape to build up this arsenal of reasons to hate him, and for Harry to learn this in that moment would just enrage him. He might not even believe it. It just doesn’t check out.
Eric: But Lupin is the guy to release that information, because when Harry says that Snape called his mother “Mudblood,” Lupin already knows that Harry saw that scene with the Levicorpus, because after he sees it, he goes and tries to contact Sirius, and doesn’t he get Remus? Or he gets both of them in the Floo Network, I’m thinking, after he sees Snape’s worst memory. And so Sirius and Remus both knew that Harry saw Snape call his mother “Mudblood,” and I think that, unless I’m far off, they should have known that Snape felt a lot towards Lily, and so this would have been an opportune moment for Remus to set the record straight, but it’s not taken.
Chloe: I wonder how much they did know, though, because it seems like Snape is very much one to just put up an aggressive front, and this is something that made him very vulnerable. So I could also see him keeping that side of himself a lot more secret, and Lily also not spreading it around, because she knows how James and Sirius and all of them would use it against Snape.
Eric: I’m reminded of the third movie where Remus on the bridge, and Harry, tells Harry that his mother was capable of seeing the good in monstrous people. That line, J.K. Rowling said, I think on… not on Twitter; it was well before Twitter. In an interview, she said that there’s a line in Movie 3 that has a lot of bearing on the later books, especially Books 6 and 7, and it was this line from Lupin about Lily’s ability to see beauty in dark people. And Lupin, in that scene, is talking about himself – people started shipping Lily and Remus at the time when they saw that scene – but he’s really talking about Snape. Ultimately, he’s talking about… it’s kind of a foreshadow of the Snape and Lily connection.
Micah: It’s an interesting point. And I think, too, back to the chapter where Harry learns about the prophecy and then goes into Dumbledore’s office. There’s that moment where Dumbledore probably considered telling Harry about how Snape felt towards his mother, but I think we discussed this, how that would have just enraged Harry even more, because he wouldn’t have perceived it that way. He would have looked at it as “Snape overheard the prophecy, he betrayed my parents, and on top of that, here’s this sleazeball who’s crushing on my mom.”
[Eric laughs]
Micah: At least, that’s how I would perceive that he would react to that information.
Andrew: Oh, yeah. Well, that’s just offensive. That would just be offensive to Harry, because Snape is trying to penetrate the Potter family. He wants to be a part of the Potters in a way, and that’s just so… that would be just such a disgusting thought.
Eric: Well, and Snape has not really been the world’s most repentant human being. He’s still a dick to everybody in class, so it would have been taken the wrong way for sure.
Micah: So Harry lets in the group about Snape overhearing the prophecy and betraying his parents. And now we get to the part where Harry has this moment where he looks over at Ron and Hermione, and it’s really like an “I told you so” moment…
Eric: Yep.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … because he says, “Look, everything that I’ve been telling you all year long is 100% accurate, and you guys chose not to listen to me at every turn and twist along the way.” And he goes into the details about how Draco used the Vanishing Cabinets to get the Death Eaters into Hogwarts, the Hand of Glory that he used to navigate his way with them once they were inside the castle, and also the Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder that was clouding them so that they were able to move in this darkness led by the light of the Hand of Glory. So Draco is, in fact, a Death Eater. He has the Dark Mark. He’s been using the Room of Requirement to his advantage all year long. He’s responsible for what happened to Katie. He’s responsible for what happened to Ron. He Imperiused Madam Rosmerta. Harry… he’s been right all along, and Ron and Hermione probably feel like a whole lot of poop right now.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Again, though, with Dumbledore’s death hanging over their heads, I wonder how they actually are feeling in this moment. Yes, absolutely, Harry was…
Micah: Responsible.
Andrew: Responsible? Wow, that’s quite a statement, but…
Micah: But in a way, you could think that maybe there’s a little bit of guilt on their part, because had they listened to Harry earlier on… and obviously, there’s bigger things at play here, and Dumbledore was aware of pretty much all of this, with the exception of the Death Eaters. But if you’re Ron and Hermione, I think maybe you feel more guilty about not believing your best friend and him turning out to be pretty much 100% right about things.
Eric: Yeah, the book says, “Hermione clapped her hands to her mouth and Ron groaned.” There could be a lot more mileage gotten out of this than that. [laughs] I really want to get… because it just is so frustrating. We made a joke of it during the Chapter by Chapter of this whole book, when every time Harry is 100% right about Malfoy, and every time either Ron or Hermione tell him he’s overreacting and shouldn’t be following Malfoy, this is the payoff for that. It’s an “I told you so” moment, absolutely, but it’s not, because Harry isn’t making that point just now.
Chloe: Yeah, so I can kind of see both sides of it. I think Ron and Hermione shouldn’t have discounted Harry so much, given that they all know his connection to the Death Eaters through his family, but at the same point, it’s like they said: As far as they know, Voldemort hasn’t really used kids before. So I think what’s most important out of this is that they learn from it and know that they can’t make any assumptions anymore about what Voldemort will or won’t do, because it’s clear he’ll do anything now. And I also think that even though Ron and Hermione didn’t believe Harry, if I’m remembering right, Harry had also tipped off McGonagall and Dumbledore, and they didn’t or weren’t able to do anything about it either. So it’s just one of these tragic cases where he couldn’t put all the pieces together in time.
Eric: Both fair points.
Micah: Definitely.
Andrew: There are a lot of people you’ve got to get on the same page, come to think of it. I hadn’t thought about that angle before. Different ages, different experiences, different powers…
Micah: Definitely. And we always like to connect the threads on this show, and several of the items that get used in the scene that Harry describes – the Vanishing Cabinet and the Hand of Glory – are direct throwbacks to Chamber of Secrets, actually within the exact same chapter where Harry hides in the cabinet in Borgin and Burke when the Malfoys enter, and then he mistakenly tries to touch the Hand of Glory. Luckily, he’s able to work his way out of there. But always cool to see these little ties back to the second book.
Eric: Yeah, that’s great.
Micah: Now, one of the things that I think really can speak to Snape’s… well, maybe could provide a little bit of light in terms of is he… not necessarily good, but what his objective truly was in this moment, is when we learn about Hermione and Luna being stationed outside of Snape’s office, and Flitwick comes down there once the Death Eaters have entered Hogwarts, and it’s to alert Snape, but he mysteriously gets knocked unconscious. And Hermione says, “We should have been more aware of what was going on in the moment; we really didn’t think of anything,” when Snape runs out of his office and tells them that Flitwick is passed out or whatever happened. But if Snape was truly evil, wouldn’t he have just killed Flitwick? Wouldn’t he have potentially done further damage to Hermione and Luna in this moment?
Andrew: Well, is Snape a killer? I know he killed Dumbledore, but…
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I guess that’s to your point, Micah. If he was a killer, then we would know in that moment that he truly was bad, and since he didn’t do that, then he’s not bad. Yeah, that’s a good point.
Eric: Some kind of a middle ground here would be to say that Snape isn’t quite sure whether he can reveal his true nature yet, so he’s still, whenever he’s at Hogwarts, in cover-up mode, double agent mode, blending in. So maybe he didn’t kill Flitwick… say he really was bad; maybe he didn’t kill Flitwick because if there’s somebody standing right outside in the corridor – which, hey, lo and behold, there actually is – he can say, “Go and look after Professor Flitwick” to Hermione. She would have, in seconds, figured out that Flitwick was dead from the Killing Curse, but if he’s still breathing and is warm and is simply passed out, it helps him maintain his cover a lot more. So maybe Snape was still in “Gotta keep my cover” mode, even though it was time to shine or do what had been planned the whole year.
Micah: I can see that. I would also say, though, that it’s a protectionary measure, right? By knocking out Flitwick and then sending Hermione and Luna into that room, he’s protecting both of them.
Eric: Yeah, he saves all their lives.
Andrew: Thanks, Snape.
Micah: And it seems like he’s also unaware of the plan to bring Death Eaters into the school. So I wondered, do you think he’s trying to act as quickly as he possibly can to prevent them from harming the students?
Eric: Yes.
Micah: Do you think he cares at all about the students? So Snape finds out Death Eaters are in the school, and he has to just spur into action. Do you think any of it is concern for other staff members and colleagues, for students…
Andrew: I think so, yeah.
Micah: … or is it just, “I’ve got to get to Dumbledore”?
Andrew: No, I think… look, Snape has got a lot to juggle this moment, and I think he’s doing the best he can. I think he was trying to save people at the same time.
Eric: Yeah. And you hear him shouting things like, “We’ve done what we came here to do, let’s go,” and all that stuff, and that is very much… these Death Eaters are getting carried away, and after they kill Dumbledore, too, Snape is still like, “Okay, we did it, let’s go,” really moving things along. That’s for the benefit of saving lives; that’s not anything else. Because Snape has enough authority to be the one who’s de facto in charge here, and because he just killed Dumbledore and the ones who saw it happen now trust him even more, he’s able to say, “Let’s get out of here,” and they actually follow him. So they kill fewer people, they shoot fewer spells, and for the most part, get out without really causing a lot of damage.
Andrew: And I guess it works. I guess the Death Eaters are like, “Oh, yeah, we don’t have to be suspicious of Snape telling us to move on, because we did just kill Dumbledore, so we should get out of here before maybe the Ministry shows up, or before we potentially lose anybody on our side.”
Micah: Chloe, what do you think?
Chloe: Yeah, I agree with all of that. I think Snape getting everyone out of there, whether he cares about the students or not, it feels like it ties back to Dumbledore’s plan, and is something I could easily see Dumbledore telling him to do. “Minimize the damage when this goes down.” So I agree with all of you.
Andrew: Hopefully that’s not something that Dumbledore would have even had to say to Snape.
Chloe: That’s true.
Andrew: Because look, they’re still human lives. I mean, is Snape that bad of a person that he wouldn’t even care if these children were dying? I mean, that’s the worst of the worst.
Micah: Yeah, exactly.
Andrew: Can I also just say, did this chapter kind of read strange to you guys? All this going backwards to tell the reader what happened? I didn’t really like it.
Eric: It’s good in small doses. I appreciate that there actually was a battle that was detailed enough to feel real happening while Harry and Dumbledore were in the cave, but I think it’s supposed to play with your sense of… not claustrophobia, but yeah, I mean, we missed this whole thing. I know why it’s weird; it’s because these events didn’t happen to Harry, and we’re so used to seeing things happen to Harry that when we get to a chapter that doesn’t center around Harry, it is distinctly cut off in a way, right? So them telling the story of where they were all positioned, what they were doing, etc., it just feels weird because Harry is not the narrator, or not the main character.
Chloe: I think it’s also tricky because their recollections are so detailed, as they have to be for the story, but when this is going down, it’s night, it’s chaotic, so how much would they really be able to recount that clearly?
Eric: Right, Lupin is like, “The Death Eater Gibbon came up and he was hit by a curse…”
[Chloe laughs]
Eric: Okay, well, we never heard of Gibbon before, so you don’t really need to remember that name. But we need it as readers, you’re right, because we get to count who and what and where showed up.
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: And Andrew, you actually mentioned the Ministry, and I wanted to bring this up because they talk about having to alert the Ministry as to what has happened. But if we go back to Goblet of Fire – at least the way I’m remembering it, and you can tell me I’m wrong – once the Dark Mark is conjured, it sets off some sort of signal, right, that draws the Ministry in?
Andrew: Let me google it.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Micah: And the Dark Mark is conjured at Hogwarts, but yet nobody from the Ministry seems to be aware of what’s happened.
Andrew: Or at least get there fast enough.
Eric: That’s an old hole. I forgot about that.
Micah: I remember back in the day discussing this possibly, but I just wonder, given everything that’s happening, why nobody from the Ministry would have shown up. You have the Order there, obviously, and they’re doing their best to fight off these Death Eaters, but once the Mark is up there, you think it would have drawn in Scrimgeour or other Aurors to help deal with what was going on at the school.
Eric: Yeah, I mean, well, the Minister is said to be Apparating when they’re in McGonagall’s office later, so not to skip ahead, but the Minister still has to presumably do the runaround of Apparating to Hogsmeade and then walking up to the school. So it’s not really that… he can’t really get there that quickly, because the defenses are still… the spells are still up.
Andrew: Yeah, I can’t really find anything acting on the fly here on Google, but I feel like they should have some sort of system in place where, yeah, if that goes up, then they should get over there immediately. Obviously for storytelling purposes, though, I guess it makes more sense for Hogwarts to defend itself on its own.
Eric: But what if Hogwarts’s own protections blocked that news from getting out?
Andrew: Yeah, maybe.
Micah: And the school is under attack. Think about anything that would happen in our society if a school was under attack. You’d alert the police immediately.
Andrew: Right. But also, then again, Eric, you said maybe Hogwarts’s protections were preventing it, but you could see it from Hogsmeade, right?
Eric: Oh, yeah, that’s right. They could see it through the clearing in Hogsmeade.
Andrew: Just a chapter or two ago, yeah.
Eric: So somebody could have sent an owl to the Ministry.
Andrew: Right, you would think at least that. If the Ministry isn’t automatically alerted, at least somebody at Hogsmeade would see it and be like, “Hmm, I don’t think that’s right.” [laughs]
Chloe: Everyone is just sleeping through it.
Andrew: There you go, yeah.
Micah: If you see something, say something! Come on, people!
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, those signs are up now.
Micah: But one other thing I just wanted to touch on was it’s mentioned how the Order just kind of let Snape and Malfoy go, not really thinking much of when they’re coming back down the stairs and they’re running out. So we’re meant to believe that nobody thought anything of Snape and Malfoy together? I know they’re student/teacher, from the same House, probably been together many times before. Was it just that they thought Snape was rescuing Draco in this moment? Part of that I didn’t really get.
Andrew: Huh. So you’re saying an Order member should have been like, “Hey, why are they running away together right now?”
Micah: Yeah.
Andrew: Well, I think it is kind of what you’re saying. Teacher/student, they’re together… but also, again, just Dumbledore’s death hanging over everybody right now, I think that changes a lot of people’s thinking in this moment, and that just doesn’t matter.
Micah: Right. It was also just mass chaos going on at the time.
Andrew: That too. And dark.
Eric: That’s kind of my point. Yeah, that big blond Death Eater throwing Killing Curses everywhere; that drives any thought from your head, having to… it was the right level of chaos. It was the perfect J.K. Rowling ingredient of the right level of chaos to prevent people from thinking what would normally come to them if they were more calm.
Micah: That’s a good point. All right, so we take a little bit of a break from learning about what happened, and we get a little bit of bonding going on between Molly and Fleur when the Weasleys show up at the hospital wing to visit Bill. And it’s really a character moment for Fleur, and I think probably a bit unexpected, just from the standpoint of a reader not really expecting that this was going to happen, and I think obviously shocked Molly and some others as well. But clearly, Fleur cares deeply for Bill, beyond injuries that he sustained, and she even notes the fact that she’s pretty enough for both of them, so who cares?
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: A little ego. I like it. But this was a much needed, lighter, happy moment. I think it was really meaningful to Molly, because a lesser person, which she thought Fleur to be, would break up over this sort of injury. “Oh, Bill looks ugly now,” or “Oh, Bill is going to have werewolf trace within him, werewolf qualities. I don’t want to be with this person.” But this is real love, unconditional love. “I will still love this man, even though half his face is missing and he may be a werewolf.”
Eric: It’s weird to get all this relationship stuff during this chapter where we’re mourning Dumbledore. It’s a bit odd. Because it’s the closing… we know this is the penultimate chapter of the book. It’s a weird closing of the plot threads that maybe wouldn’t exist if we had dealt with this… I’m still harping on the missing three weeks where nothing important apparently happened to Harry.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But we really could have figured out that… at least Molly, who thinks that Fleur’s relationship with Bill is so surface level, could have had a couple more hints throughout the year, and definitely the Lupin/Tonks thing that this outburst inspires. None of that… it’s just all in this chapter in the hospital wing, and there’s conversations, and Lupin is like, “This is not the time.” But it just feels weird this is all happening to Harry, and he’s just kind of watching. He’s a spectator here.
Micah: Definitely.
Andrew: But you need some payoff at the end here, and this is one of those payoffs, I guess.
Eric: I agree.
Andrew: The Horcrux was for nothing. Dumbledore is dead. What did we just get out of this book? Well, Bill and Fleur are going to be together still.
[Everyone laughs]
Chloe: We have a wedding to plan.
Andrew: Yep. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, God.
Micah: Yeah, and I think to your point, that’s almost what Dumbledore would have wanted after everything that’s transpired, would be for that type of a moment with Fleur and Molly and Bill. And then also, we don’t get as much of a payoff with Lupin and Tonks, but clearly Tonks is very much interested in Lupin. We don’t really know if Lupin is interested in Tonks; he probably is, but he tries to play it off and say that there are too many things that are wrong with him.
Andrew: And only one of them is valid. He says, “I’m too old, too poor, too dangerous.” The dangerous one is valid, but I find it interesting that he would say, “I’m not worth it, Tonks, because I’m too old and poor.” I don’t think a lot of people would say that in the real world. He just really is disappointed in himself, and hates himself and has such a negative view of himself. It’s really surprising. Something we don’t see from Lupin before, I don’t believe.
Eric: I think he just needs to come out and say he’s gay.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: He just needs to come out of the closet here. He’s been putting it off all year; this is the moment where he has to say, “Actually, I’m not into you, Tonks. I was into Sirius.” Right? Am I crazy?
Andrew: Well, fans would have been pleased. But that’s not his truth, Eric. His truth is he is straight. Happy Pride.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I mean, I think that… not to get too off topic and on a tangent here, but Wolfstar is what I think is one of the most canon compliant potential ships in the entire fandom, and hearing how Remus has spent this whole year rebuffing Tonks and blaming his illness on why they can’t be together, even though she pretty clearly is into him and doesn’t care about his illness, and even likes it and would put up with it, then there has to be something more than just he’s hung up on, I don’t know, whatever. He’s probably just not that into her, and the fact that he abandons them in the next book – briefly, admittedly; once Harry says, “What the hell are you doing?”, he shapes up – shows that there’s more to it than that, and I just think that this was an opportunity for J.K. Rowling to really be very diverse.
Micah: But do you think that there’s ever been anybody that has shown that level of interest or would care that much about him since he’s been attacked?
Eric: Right.
Micah: Maybe with the exception of Dumbledore.
Eric: Yeah, it’s pretty…
Micah: And the Marauders, but I’m talking about from a female standpoint. We talked about Lily earlier, but this is clearly a different level of interest that Tonks has in him. And I also think, though… clearly he has a condition, and a lot of times when we’ve discussed this series, there’s been analogies made between the werewolf community and those that are living with HIV and AIDS, and so you almost wonder, is it a comparable situation where somebody who is living with that type of a disease would react in much the same way if somebody was interested in them? They wouldn’t want to potentially transmit the disease; they wouldn’t want to harm or hurt another person that they potentially care about. So I think there’s some of that going on with Lupin here too. And he looks at Tonks probably as somebody that he does care very deeply about, but is afraid of getting into the relationship because he doesn’t know what necessarily that means for her. But hopefully in seeing what’s happening here with Fleur and Bill, that there is opportunity for them to have a relationship. And obviously they do, and they have Teddy, but right now I think it just gives a lot more insight into Lupin’s character and the struggles that he’s dealing with each and every day as a werewolf.
Eric: I completely agree.
Chloe: Me too.
Andrew: But Eric, you think he should have said, “I’m too old, too poor, too gay to be with you.”
Eric: [laughs] I don’t know, but I think that it could read that way if it weren’t in fact…
Micah: Then he could have had Dumbledore.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: What?!
Andrew: “Dumbledore was my man.” I’ll ship that, Lupin and Dumbledore.
[Chloe laughs]
Micah: He couldn’t have said he was too old to Dumbledore, could he?
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: Oh my God.
Andrew: And Dumbledore’s got cash. I’m sure he’s got a lot of money saved up.
Eric: But actually, I think it’s a really good point on the flip side, because I will never, after having been spoiled by people who are really into Movie 3, when Sirius and Remus hug in the Shrieking Shack – “This is your heart, your real heart” – after having been spoiled on Wolfstar from the get go, I can’t help but read this scene that way. But I think it’s super important to mention, like what you did, Micah, that he would react with horror if somebody says they want to be with him, and that’s kind of really just what it is. He’s horrified for the implications. So I get it.
Micah: Yeah, it’s also not to say, though, that there couldn’t have been a very strong loving friendship between Lupin and Sirius.
Andrew: Oh, absolutely.
Micah: I think, to your point, that was revealed in Prisoner of Azkaban. And I think in large part it is because Lupin… and I can’t truly remember what happened with his parents. Did Greyback kill his parents? But he really just doesn’t have anybody around him, and I think when he finds Sirius and he finds James and Lily, that’s his family, and it probably takes a long time to be able to trust other people, given everything that he’s going through. And so he’s lost a lot also in this moment; I think that goes back to what we were talking about earlier in the chapter when he learns about Dumbledore, because Dumbledore provided for him at Hogwarts. He gave him a place to transform. And despite what Dumbledore may have said, I still don’t believe that he wasn’t aware of the fact that the Marauders were gallivanting around the grounds of Hogwarts as Animagi.
Eric: Right, yeah.
Micah: So he allowed a lot to happen for him. All right, so McGonagall calls the Heads of House together, and along with them, Harry and Hagrid all go up to what is now McGonagall’s office, presumably. And before the other Heads of House get there, Dumbledore’s portrait is already up on the wall, ready to go.
Eric: [laughs] That was quick.
Micah: He’s taking a snooze; he’s had a rough night. And I’m just wondering, how quickly do these portraits get created? And is there some magical contract that a headmaster or headmistress signs when they become the Head of Hogwarts, that upon their passing that a portrait will automatically go up on the wall with their characteristics and such?
Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s automatic. I wonder if the headmaster gets to pick what their portrait will look like. That’d be kind of fun, to decide what your portrait would look like.
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Eric: The world’s most vain headmaster has meetings with the artist just constantly. “And make sure this blemish on my nose does not get in.”
Andrew: Right, or what you’re wearing, wearing a hat, how long is your hair… when I was on the set of Half-Blood Prince, I actually asked the production people. I said, “So have you decided yet where Dumbledore’s portrait is going?” And they said, “No,” and I was like, “Ooh, I made them start thinking about it. That’s kind of cool.”
Eric: [laughs] Cool.
Micah: Yeah, there you go.
Andrew: Then they let me decide. Just kidding; they didn’t. That would have been cool.
Micah: So before the Heads of Houses show up, there’s a moment where McGonagall asks Harry to confide in her as to what him and Dumbledore have been up to, really, over the course of this past year, but more particularly, what they were up to this evening. And Harry refuses to tell her, and I wanted to just talk about whether or not we thought that this was a good idea on his part. I think, Chloe, you actually have a really good point.
Chloe: Yeah, so I think it’s such a difficult question, because could McGonagall have been a good ally to them? Yes, definitely, but there’s too much to risk here, because the Horcruxes are the one thing that can truly and finally defeat Voldemort. So we’ve seen in this book how easily something like the Imperius Curse can go totally unnoticed for the whole year with Madam Rosmerta, so you have to keep the pool of people who know as small as possible. And I think even going beyond the Imperius Curse, if McGonagall says, “Okay, great, that’s what you’re doing. No, you’re not going to leave school. You can’t handle this; let’s get some people to help you,” then that’s just widening the pool of people who can be sabotaged.
Eric: I think Harry deciding not to tell McGonagall what they’re up to is childish and wrong. I think it could not be more wrong. You could not construct a scenario where it’s more wrong. Not only can McGonagall help, but there’s really no reason why Harry should stick to, “Well, Dumbledore told me that I should only tell Hermione and Ron, so I’m only going to ever tell Hermione and Ron.” This isn’t a game of Simon Says, okay? Dumbledore is dead. The situation has escalated innumerably, immeasurably, and there’s just no reason Harry should be saying, “Simon didn’t say…” He should be able to form his own thoughts. He should trust McGonagall for what she could help, and if anybody is trustable, it’s McGonagall, right? McGonagall was there at Privet Drive when Dumbledore dropped Harry off; I know Harry doesn’t know that. And so was Hagrid, but both McGonagall and Hagrid absolutely could be let in on this and never be told. I mean, the risk of Imperius Curse, sure, maybe that’s a thing, but these are people he can trust. And given Book 7 – I always go to this – but Book 7, everyone helps destroy a Horcrux. It is a village effort. It is not only Harry and Ron, so his whole premise that it can only be him and Hermione and Ron who destroy these things, who can know about the Horcruxes, is wrong. When he finally gets back to Hogwarts after the year and a half of camping in the next book, he ends up telling everybody anyway, so it’s really not that big of a deal for him to…
Andrew: But… I sound like a broken record with this, but Dumbledore just died! And he’s going to honor Dumbledore’s memory by going against one of his final wishes?
Eric: It wasn’t really a final wish!
Andrew: I think this was one of… I think that’s why Harry decided not to tell McGonagall. He just lost this guy.
Eric: Did Dumbledore reiterate at the beginning of the evening and before the cave not to tell…?
Andrew: “And don’t forget: Don’t tell anybody. Okay, time to fall.” No.
[Chloe laughs]
Eric: Did he say that? Because if not, then it was just when they started their lessons six months ago that he was like, “Yeah, I don’t think you should tell anybody other than…” Like, really?
Andrew: Well, he never said otherwise, I guess. He wasn’t like, “Okay, and by the way, if anything happens to me…” Maybe that would have been said in the cave before he started drinking.
Eric: Yeah, but now he can’t. It’s just… Harry is treating this as though it’s written in gold, in stone, chiseled into this ancient stone that he can’t tell anybody else, and I think it’s just ridiculous. It serves the plot.
Andrew: Well, look, it all worked out for the best. Everybody came together in Book 7 and took care of what needed to be done, so it wasn’t necessarily a bad decision. In hindsight, did it change anything? No. For the worse?
Eric: Well, it could have prevented months of camping.
Andrew: [laughs] Maybe he needed a little fresh air after what happened in the past six books. I don’t blame him.
[Chloe laughs]
Micah: Yeah, I think it could have created a powerful ally in McGonagall, somebody who cares deeply about Harry and would do anything for him, but he’s not giving it up.
Eric: Instead it just creates this rift between them. There’s never been this rift between Harry and McGonagall. If anything, they’ve been growing closer since “Career Advice.” They’ve really grown into a very mentor relationship that doesn’t compare to Dumbledore and Harry’s relationship, but could be heading there. And I think McGonagall really would have done… not to harp on this, but I think she would have done everything she could to help, and she would have understood the need for discretion, because she’s smart. This isn’t Cursed Child where you treat her like garbage, and it’s okay.
Andrew: Wow.
Eric: Yeah, I brought the claws out.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Eric: I’ll die on this hill. Anyway. Moving on.
Micah: Well, the Heads of House do get together to discuss what to do about Hogwarts. Should it remain open? Should it close? And Hagrid is also there because McGonagall values his input. And really, the decision that gets made is to consult the governors, and this is a throwback to Chamber of Secrets; when the Chamber was opened, we had all that business with Lucius Malfoy and the governors. And it’s even referenced that the last time that they had to consider even closing the school was when the Chamber of Secrets was opened, so some nice throwbacks to Book 2. But I was wondering, have we ever been privy to this type of a conversation before, where we’ve had all the Heads of House in one place? I guess Harry would have needed to be there for us to be able to witness it. But it’s kind of cool to get this insight.
Andrew: Every opening feast, Micah.
[Chloe and Eric laugh]
Andrew: No, I see your point.
Eric: But they’re not… every opening feast, they’re not like, “Should we close the school?”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “Welcome, everybody! Should we shut it down?” No, the only thing I can think of where a bunch of adults got together to have a big discussion was in the Shrieking Shack, back in Prisoner of Azkaban, and that’s one of my favorite scenes in the Harry Potter series, both book and film, for that reason, because it’s so cool seeing all these adults work together, and it really all revolves around the adults. But yeah, I think you’re right. This is probably one of the only times where the Heads of House get together. Maybe Chamber of Secrets, when people are gathered to figure out what to do.
Eric: Yeah, after Colin Creevey and they’re in the hospital wing, and Harry has to pretend being asleep, but he overhears Dumbledore talk about the governors again, and “Will the school close?” For sure. McGonagall has pretty much a similar conversation with Dumbledore then.
Micah: Right. And we also get Slughorn in the role as Head of Slytherin House, and really, that payoff finally happens in this chapter, most notably because Snape is no longer there. And he even mentions, “Hey, I taught the kid.”
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Was that just more of a Half-Blood Prince tie-in there to mention it?
Andrew: It’s him showing off his collection as usual. That’s what that’s about.
Micah: I guess you’re right. Yeah, I guess that is kind of like what it is, where he’s like, “Yeah, I thought he was a good kid, kind of like that Tom Riddle.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Right, “That other guy I got cozy with.”
Eric: That’s really the thing, is… you have this quote from Slughorn saying, “I taught him! I thought I knew him!” What exactly did he think Snape was? What about Snape’s personality in school would have informed who he was as an adult? I’m wondering.
Andrew: So I wanted to also ask, do we think Hogwarts should have closed? If we were on the Board of Governors or one of the Heads of House. Chloe, do you think the school should have closed in light of everything?
Chloe: I’m going to say I think attendance should have been optional, because you should give parents the opportunity to pull their kids out if they think they’re safer at home. But still, Hogwarts has so many protections, and with everything going the way it’s going, they should know as much as they can learn before things start going down.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true. That’s kind of where I am on this issue. Hogwarts is one of the safest places. And also, that parent point is great, because there are so many big things that happen in the school, and we really never hear from the parents about what they are thinking, and I think that would actually be so interesting to hear what’s going through their minds.
Chloe and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: I think this might be a failure of world-building, but there’s really no other option other than Hogwarts. I mean, unless these parents are going to quit their jobs and homeschool their kids, I don’t really see this as a question. “Is Hogwarts going to close?” If Hogwarts closes, how will the kids get their education? Hogwarts can’t close. I don’t even know why they were discussing this.
Andrew: And what would they do, stay at home? Not go out? They’re going to go out and about, and then they’re going to be in danger.
Eric: Yeah. So I don’t really think it’s a question at all, because we don’t know what the alternatives to Hogwarts are, really.
Chloe: Ilvermorny.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Ca-caw!
Micah: In Deathly Hallows… go ahead, sorry.
Eric: Oh, no, that was the Ilvermorny fight thing. Sorry, go on.
[Chloe laughs]
Micah: Oh, got you. No, I was just going to say, we don’t know… or meanwhile in Deathly Hallows, the school gets taken over by Death Eaters anyway, so should they have really decided to keep it open? I think so, and I think it’s Sprout that does mention that there is no safer place right now for these kids, and I agree. And we still have the Ministry – let’s not forget that – at this point, and the Minister is on his way to the school, and McGonagall sends Harry along because he wants nothing to do with that. But there is still an institution in place that could potentially protect these students and staff from Voldemort and his followers.
Andrew: Right. And what about Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure? Should we keep that open during this time, or should we close that? It’s amongst the ruins of Hogwarts.
Micah: Hagrid said he’s going to teach no matter… as long as there’s a student that wants to come to learn from him, which I thought was cool.
Andrew: That’s true. As long as there’s a student who wants to wait three hours in line, he’ll be there for you.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: But yeah, that kind of wraps up the chapter. Harry goes back to the dormitory and really just makes a beeline for his room, and Ron is there. But that’s how the chapter wraps up.
Andrew: Okay, so one more chapter left, and we will discuss that in two weeks, because next week’s episode will be focused on Wizards Unite.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: I think you already connected these threads, right? So we probably don’t have to rehash them.
Micah: Yeah, we pretty much touched on all of them. There’s probably a few others that were left out, but we can go to MVP of the Week.
Andrew: Sure. So mine are the Heads of House for banding together in a trying moment and discussing important issues so quickly after losing Albus. I mean, that must have been so difficult to try to move on so soon after he fell. And also, I would like to give it to everybody but McGonagall for saying the school should stay open.
Micah: She just wants a vacation.
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Eric: She’s had it coming. She’s had a rough life, yeah.
Andrew: That’s why she was asking for info from Harry; she wanted to go on that camping trip.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Eric: That would be great. If she hears that, and is like, “I’m not going to get any of my extensive contacts to come with us and help us, but I’m going to come with you.” That’d be great.
Chloe: I gave mine to Dumbledore, because even though he’s dead, his influence is so clear and driving this entire chapter, from Harry keeping the hunt for Horcruxes a secret to the decision to keep the school open, and just how to proceed with getting on without Dumbledore. It’s all about what did he want? What would he want? And he’s just still the person people are turning to for that direction even though he’s dead.
Eric: That’s so good. I gave mine to Fleur Delacour, and I’m not confident in my French accent, but for the line that Micah mentioned earlier: “I am good-looking enough for both of us!” I just thought that was really baller and super cool, and also she’s using it to call into question Molly’s whole logic, which we know is flawed, so good for her.
Micah: Yeah. I gave it to Hagrid, first off for doing a task that I’m sure nobody would want to do, and that was moving Dumbledore’s body. And then later on in the chapter, as mentioned, he is considered important enough by McGonagall to be part of the discussion with the Heads of House as to whether or not the school should remain open, and of course, his line about still wanting to teach, as long as there was a student who wanted to learn. So he’s my MVP of the Week.
Andrew: I was also thinking about how not only does he have to carry Dumbledore’s body, but then he has to carry Harry’s body in the next book. That is really rough.
Chloe: Hagrid is going to need therapy.
Andrew: Yeah, poor guy.
Rename the Chapter
Andrew: Time now to rename the chapter. Half-Blood Prince Chapter 29, “So… What Now?”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Because they’re trying to figure out what’s next.
Eric: I named mine Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Chapter 29, “Hot Girlfriend.”
[Micah laughs]
Andrew: Eric is really on this line, big fan of this line.
Eric: Or “Hot Fiancée.”
Andrew: I think you have a crush on her.
Eric: I do. Clémence Poésy? Oh my God, have you seen her?
Andrew: [laughs] Yes.
Chloe: I named mine Harry Potter and Half-Blood Prince Chapter 29, “Here’s What You Missed on Half-Blood Prince.”
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Nice.
Eric: Previously on…
Andrew: I like it.
Micah: And I went with Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Chapter 29, “Told Ya So.”
Andrew: [laughs] That’s a good one.
Micah: Geez.
Andrew: All right, if you have any feedback about this discussion or the final chapter in Half-Blood Prince, let us know. MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form, or call us; 1-920-368-4453.
Quizzitch
Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.
Eric: Yeah, we had a funny development. So you know how last week, the ads infiltrated my Quizzitch search?
Andrew: Oh, God, I saw this. Yeah.
Eric: [laughs] We credited… or I accidentally read the name of Vitamin Water. Well, a company called Steak-umm out of Pennsylvania, my home state, replied and said, “Well, Vitamin Water might not be playing Quizzitch, but we sure are.” And they gave the correct answer this week to this week’s Quizzitch.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: To reiterate… and then Vitamin Water replied too. It was a whole thing. So we actually heard from…
Andrew: And Vitamin Water was like, “Oh yeah, we totally listen to MuggleCast.” Okay, whatever.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Eric: They were like, “Wasn’t the answer to last week’s Quizzitch ‘Try new Vitamin Water Fire’?” [laughs]
Micah: Wow. Did they send you some, at least?
Eric: You know, I’m going to work that. I’m going to work that connection.
Andrew: Yeah, Vitamin Water, where’s our Vitamin Water?
Eric: Where’s our Vitamin Water Fire? Anyway, so it’s funny that Quizzitch is now being sponsored by people. But last week’s question was: What color is the ointment that is applied to Bill’s face, and who are the three women who apply it? And I thought this was a little bit more complex of a question, since it’s a two-parter with four answers total. But people got it right. The correct answer was it was a green ointment, and it was applied by Madam Pomfrey, Mrs. Weasley, and then Fleur – the hot girlfriend – takes it from her and says, “No, I’ll do zis.” So correct answers were submitted by Fluffy McNutters, Count Ravioli, Grindy and Voldy, J.K. not Rowling, Issy Marcantonio, Steak-umm…
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: This time it’s not an ad! Steak-umm actually got the answer correct. Baila Beth, Olivia Kenney, Sarah Davis, the Cees, the Jesley Hallows, Supermandy, Jason King, and Karen Fröjdh. Congratulations.
Andrew: Okay.
Eric: Next week… so even though we’re not doing Chapter by Chapter next week, this Quizzitch question does come from the final chapter in Half-Blood Prince: Who is sitting in Snape’s seat in the Great Hall in his absence?
Andrew: Oooh. Okay.
Eric: And submit your answer to us over on Twitter, hashtag #Quizzitch.
Andrew: So once again, don’t forget you can visit MuggleCast.com to find all the ways to contact us. Also be sure to follow us on Instagram, Instagram.com/MuggleCast; same username on Twitter and Facebook. Starting this week, we are going to launch a new Throwback Thursday feature that we are really excited about. One of our listeners, Kim, she has gone through every single episode of MuggleCast and found every single prediction we’ve made, so we are going to start rerunning those predictions on our social media channels and on air. It’s going to be a new segment here on the show. So we’re really looking forward to it; Kim did an amazing job with this, and it’s just so cool being able to relive all these old moments. Because obviously this show is 15 years old; we’ve made a lot of predictions over that time.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: So it’s going to be fun to experience them again. You will get the first Throwback Thursday this Thursday on Instagram.com/MuggleCast. Chloe, thanks for joining us today. You were awesome. You had some great opinions.
Chloe: Thank you, it was really fun.
Andrew: Awesome. And thanks for your support at Patreon.com/MuggleCast.
Chloe: Of course.
Andrew: I know you’ve been a long time listener, and now you’re killing it in LA, so we’re proud of you.
Chloe: Thank you. [laughs]
Andrew: It’s always fun watching our listeners grow up and become more successful than we are. It’s always very humbling.
Chloe: I don’t know about that, but thanks a lot.
[Andrew and Chloe laugh]
Andrew: No, but you know what I mean? Everybody’s growing up together, and then we see all of our listeners doing cool things. We’re like, “Wow, that’s awesome. Who would have thought we’d be here?” Anyway, thank you, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Chloe: And I’m Chloe.
Andrew: Bye, everybody!
Eric and Micah: Bye.