Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #584, Harry Potter and the Hotly Debated Book Title (Sorcerer’s Stone, Chapters 13-14)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Andrew: And we’re joined by one of our friends again this week, Andy! Hey, Andy. Welcome back to the show!
Andy McCray: Hey, y’all. Thanks for having me.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: Somebody listens.
Andy: [laughs] Someone did their homework.
Andrew: Good substitute for Laura by using “y’all.” Very good. And you’re the founder of Harry Potter Fan Zone, for anybody who doesn’t know, right?
Andy: That’s correct. Yeah, it’s a site I started back in 2003, and yeah, here we are now.
Andrew: And you brought some fandom history to the table for us today, which we’ll get into in a little bit.
Micah: Do we still redirect to his site?
Andrew: You know what? I’m afraid I may have let Potter-No-More expire…
[Andy laughs]
Andrew: … so no, it no longer redirects to HarryPotterFanZone.com. We can buy it again if we want. [laughs]
Eric: I was going to say, I wonder if Warner Bros. snatched it off you now because they’re like, “No, nobody’s going to be joking about that anymore.”
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. And it’s 2:00 a.m. there in Australia right now, so thank you very much for staying up late. We said before we started recording, we’ll buy you a coffee when you wake up tomorrow morning.
Andy: All good. Thank you for having me on. And as I said, I do my best work, hopefully, at night.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, that works for people. The calmness of night can really help out.
Andy: That’s it.
News
Andrew: Well, we have a little bit of news to get into before we discuss the next two chapters in Sorcerer’s Stone. It’s just that time of year before the holiday season. Several new Harry Potter-related books are out, including Order of the Phoenix Illustrated Edition. Any of you get this yet?
Eric: Not yet.
Micah: Yeah, it’s super heavy.
Andrew: Oh my God, it’s huge! I have it right here. It’s so big!
Micah: Do you work out with it?
Andrew: Yes! This is a good five pounds, I think. I should weigh this thing.
Eric: So verdict: Should they have made it into two books there, do you think, Andrew?
Andrew: Yes, Eric is right, after all this time.
Eric: Thank you.
Andrew: I think we’ll discuss it more later, maybe on next week’s episode. But it is large. The art is beautiful. We’re getting into some of the really key scenes in the Harry Potter series, and seeing those illustrated in this is breathtaking.
Micah: Yeah, I haven’t had a whole lot of time to go through it just yet, but from what I’ve seen, no surprise; Jim Kay does an amazing job. And that’s his last illustrated edition, so definitely a collector’s item.
Andrew: So yeah, we’ll discuss that a little more next week, I think. Also, Beyond the Wand. This is Tom Felton’s new book about his life so far. And Micah, you are reading this one, right?
Micah: Yeah, I started reading it on the train going to work during this past week. I’m a couple chapters in. It’s actually really good. I know that there’s a very – I’m trying to think of the right word – salacious foreword written by Emma Watson, depending on who you ask.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: That’s probably one word that can be used to describe it. But yeah, it’s just really cool to see how honest Tom is in this book. There’s a really great story in the opening chapter that I’m not going to spoil for anybody, but I will say that he does try and lift something from a local store, and it’s probably not what you think, and it’s also a story he never told his mom. So I don’t know, I just like the candidness of it, and we see a lot more of that as he goes throughout the book. So I’m looking forward to finishing that.
Andrew: Cool. And he dives into his friendship, his very close friendship, with Emma Watson, I saw on TikTok, and I think we’re going to build a little bonus MuggleCast all about that because it confirms previous speculation we have had on this show.
Eric: They love each other.
Andrew: And then last but not least – we spoke about this a couple weeks ago – Madly, Deeply: The Diaries of Alan Rickman was recently released as well. He had a lot to say about shooting Harry Potter, and we did discuss that in a recent bonus MuggleCast installment. He wasn’t a huge fan of… [laughs] He didn’t want to commit to the series; that was one of the big takeaways we got from these diaries. Anybody here reading this?
Eric: I would like to. I’ll mostly be reading it for the Harry Potter stuff, but also anything if he says it about Die Hard or Galaxy Quest. I really need it.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I need to get that. Where’s my Galaxy Quest podcast or Die Hard podcast covering those excerpts? I need to find one and listen because I’m obsessed.
Andrew: This is why MuggleCast is so great. What other podcasts are you going to get analysis of Madly, Deeply: The Diaries of Alan Rickman?
Eric: You know, I think maybe as another bonus MuggleCast, we should analyze the Savage Garden song “Truly Madly Deeply,” because I keep confusing the title for that old hit from the ’90s.
Andrew: Sure, sure. Let’s do it. [laughs]
Eric: But yeah, it’s a great time to be a collector of books, somebody who reads, and in this fandom, just knowing that the diaries of Alan Rickman were published; Felton’s autobiography so far. Just seems like a lot of rich new content. And with Jim Kay’s illustrations, just more stuff to dive into.
Andy: I think it’s nice we’re kind of at that ten year mark beyond the last film. I think it’s the point in time where you start to get these kind of tell-alls. And I know, obviously, Alan’s is posthumous, but it’s nice to think what other stories we might get after the fact, now that a little bit of time has passed since we saw that last film.
Eric: That’s a great point. I’m still waiting for David Yates’s tell-all book.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: “Where Did All the Color Go?” That will be his…
[Andrew and Andy laugh]
Eric: Subtitled “It Wasn’t My Fault.” Hopefully we’ll get that in another ten years.
Andrew: “Well, Time for Another One.” That’s what I would call my David Yates memoir.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: “Time for Another Harry Potter Movie. They Got Me Again.”
Micah: “Truly, Madly, Darkly.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Well, speaking of nostalgic looks back, our limited time fandom lookback series continues on our Patreon, and recently Laura and Eric both posted videos taking listeners through fan mail and MuggleNet memories, and I’m posting a video very soon showing some of my most valued Potter possessions, including at least one I’ve never revealed before. And well, let’s just say I probably shouldn’t have it.
Eric: Oh my God.
Andrew: [laughs] It’s nothing major.
Eric: If you announced and displayed and did an unboxing of the vibrating broomstick, I want to know what you have that you don’t want to tell everybody about.
Andrew: [laughs] Those are available at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. This is a special series we’re doing this year on our Patreon to look back at some of the stuff we’ve held on to after all this time.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary (“Nicolas Flamel”)
Andrew: All right, it’s time for Chapter 13 of Sorcerer’s Stone, “Nicolas Flamel.” And we will start with our Seven-Word Summary, and Andy is going to kick us off.
Andy: Okay.
Andrew: You ready, Andy?
Andy: I’m ready.
Andrew: Okay.
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Andy: Secrets…
Andrew: … are…
Micah: … revealed…
Eric: … when…
Andy: … chocolate…
Andrew: [laughs] … is…
Micah: … eaten.
Andrew: Oh, okay. Yep, that is accurate.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion (“Nicolas Flamel”)
Andrew: So there’s three big events in this chapter. Snape is a referee during a Quidditch match, and we’ll get to that at the end of this chapter discussion. Harry has a big Quidditch win, which of course is great news. But I want to focus on the third big event, which is learning about Nicolas Flamel. I’m going to break this out into two directions: First of all, what we know about Nicolas Flamel in the world of Harry Potter, and then I want to talk about the Sorcerer’s Stone, or the Philosopher’s Stone, and why it was called Sorcerer’s Stone in America and Philosopher’s Stone everywhere else. So we’re going to get into a little bit of Harry Potter history today. What we learn about him in this chapter is that, well, he was on Harry’s first Chocolate Frog Card and he held the only Sorcerer’s Stone currently in existence. We also learn a little bit more about Flamel here when Hermione gets researching. He created the Sorcerer’s Stone, and with that, the Elixir of Life. And as for the Stone, it will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces that Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal. Something interesting here that I wanted to discuss was what the Chocolate Frog Card says about Dumbledore and Flamel. It’s said that they worked together on alchemy, but we never get more details than that. I mean, it looked like we were maybe going to get a little more info in Fantastic Beasts, which would have been nice.
Eric: Yeah, there’s two glaring, I think… well, glaring absences of Dumbledore’s character that are… I don’t want to say hyped up, but definitely referenced more than once in the Harry Potter books. Book 7 being this huge tell-all of Dumbledore, all the secrets, things we never knew about him. But the ones that don’t get touched on are this work in alchemy and the 12 uses of dragon’s blood, which we’re talking about later. But yeah, there’s this blind spot that is pretty interesting. If you consider it, it works being a blind spot because all we need to know about Flamel is that he’s Dumbledore’s friend. It immediately connects a fictional character in Dumbledore, the headmaster of this school, with a really nonfictional legendary character that we know about. It would be as if you’re writing a Harry Potter book and you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to make the headmaster of the school who’s really old with a gray beard best friends or college dorm mates with Merlin.” It’s basically that connection, that level of connection. The idea that J.K. Rowling had them both be alchemists is also very interesting because alchemy is concerned as a study with creating the Philosopher’s Stone and metal into gold and the quest for immortality, so it kind of does foreshadow, I think, Dumbledore’s own ambition and interest in those sorts of arts. It makes perfect sense to make him sort of a alchemist/scientist/professor type character.
Andrew: Yeah, and I think with Fantastic Beasts, there was that real opportunity to finally explain how they worked together. Of course, Nicolas Flamel was in Crimes of Grindelwald, but he didn’t really have a huge role. We all kind of speculated that his role would expand as the series went on, but then he wasn’t in Movie 3. However, I want to remind everybody that back in 2018, we received an email from one of our listeners, Alyssa, with this awesome theory about how Flamel could fit into Fantastic Beasts, and her theory, the long and short of it, was that “It was the Philosopher’s Stone that assisted in the creation of Aurelius Dumbledore. If Aurelius, whose name derives from the Latin word for ‘gold,’ was created by Dumbledore and Grindelwald through the means of alchemy, it is only fitting that he would be given a name that means ‘golden.'” And there was much more to this theory, and we talked about it at the time, and Alyssa’s email was actually inspired by another email we had received from other listeners. By the way, Alyssa also predicted that Credence was a son to Albus, which ended up not being too far off. So I just think, even though we don’t really need to know what their relationship was in Sorcerer’s Stone, it would have been a beautiful callback to this original Chocolate Frog Card in Fantastic Beasts, and that’s one of the reasons why we like these spinoffs, to finally dive into areas we didn’t get in the core series.
Micah: I’m convinced that J.K. Rowling’s writing around this entire Fantastic Beasts series just went off the rails. I really think that this is something that…
Eric: Along with other things.
Micah: Yeah, but I think in particular this was something that really could have been developed. I remember years ago on her Twitter page, her header was referencing Aurelius, the historical figure, and looking back on it, I agree that it would have been a really great way to tie this back to Sorcerer’s Stone, introducing Nicolas Flamel in the first book. He’s kind of made out to be this “Tales from the Crypt Keeper” in the movie, and…
Andrew: “I’m so old!”
Eric: Comic relief.
Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]
Eric: It’s so bad.
Micah: That was something else that I didn’t really appreciate, because you would think that Nicolas Flamel, if he is in fact taking the Elixir of Life, would look relatively young. He’s not going to look like a decrepit old man unless he hasn’t taken his elixir in a couple of days, because naturally, I think he would age very quickly if he wasn’t taking it. But yeah, I didn’t like his portrayal. They really only use him for the purposes of having a safe house to go to, and I feel like the story could have been expanded on so much more in terms of his relationship with Dumbledore.
Andrew: Absolutely.
Eric: I really do believe that this is where the plot was going. This whole Credence, golden one… to my soul, I think that must have been… because of all the names, why pick that one? No naming in this world, this wizarding world, is unintentional.
Andrew: And why get Flamel involved in Fantastic Beasts if it wasn’t going to be for some major reason?
Eric: Yeah, so I still think this would have come true had the series not been derailed, and possibly, we may find out, canceled. But I really like it. And also, the other thing from alchemy that exists in other popular alchemical media and books and things – I’m thinking Fullmetal Alchemist – a homunculus, which was the creature born of alchemy. That’s what the theory had said that Credence was going to be. So it’s still very interesting to me, and I consider it one of the best fan theories we’ve ever received on the show. Just really makes you think.
Andrew and Andy: Yeah.
Andy: I think also to that point where you mentioned about Crimes of Grindelwald, I think it’s Flamel that communicates with Lalie before we meet her in the next film, and I feel like that was a stage one introduction, and I wonder if those two were supposed to… before the third film wrapped itself up in a neat little bow, where Fantastic Beasts was going to be the six-film long form thing, whether we would have perhaps had those two interacting and potentially with other characters too.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: We find out who else is in the phoenix book.
Andrew: Yeah, there was a phoenix on that cover. We were like, [gasps] “OG Order of the Phoenix! Ah, so cool!” And then we didn’t hear more. Womp-womp.
Micah: Getting back to the chapter itself… so the big reveal happens, they figure out how they know who Flamel is, and then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Hermione is like, “Oh yeah, I have a book. Let me go get it. I checked it out for a bit of light reading.” And then in that book is the description of Nicolas Flamel and the Sorcerer’s Stone, and I’m thinking to myself, “Okay, when were you going to share this with the group?” Because she’s not the type of person that would have read through that and then completely forgotten about it. So I just… this was a part for me that I was a little bit confused on, because she knew exactly where to go in the book, and I’m wondering, I guess, if they didn’t figure it out from the Chocolate Frog Card, would she have figured this out eventually because of this book that she checked out? Possibly?
Andrew: Yeah, possibly. It’s funny it all comes down to a Chocolate Frog Card, but I guess that’s kind of the delight of it. Maybe it would have been nice if they never discovered it. It would have kept them out of a lot of trouble.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Really.
Eric: I like that it comes from a Chocolate Frog Card. I mean, humble origins there of… this huge mystery is just on something that most people would overlook. But also, the fact that the way they come into this Chocolate Frog Card is Harry gives Neville a Chocolate Frog. Neville has just been bullied, he comes in, he’s really, really upset, and Harry is like, “Here, Neville, have some chocolate.” A regular everyday Lupin, really.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: And then Neville in return offers Harry the card. He’s like, “You collect them, don’t you?” So it’s just this act of giving… it’s almost like the universe is saying, “Harry, you did a truly good thing. Now you can have a piece of the puzzle of your destiny. This is what Voldemort is after.” So I love the way that it comes to be, and then, yeah, just the idea that it’s on this tiny little thing of paper that was earlier mentioned in the book, and we all kind of just looked right past it. It’s great.
Micah: But Hermione is like, then, “Oh, by the way, this book I checked out a week ago for a bit of light reading has all this information on the person that we’re looking for.” What?
Eric: There’s a lot of pages in that book.
Micah: I know.
Andrew: Maybe she was just scanning it.
Eric: When I’m looking for my keys, it makes perfect sense where I put my keys after I’ve found the keys. I’m like, “Oh, yes, I was in that room, and that room, and that room.”
Micah: Of course.
Eric: So once she hears the name, then she remembers… well, then again, but the name is on her mind all the time. So again, it’s just…
Micah: Well, and how many books have they checked through at this point? They never came across this one?
Eric: Dozens. Well, I think what it is…
Micah: I don’t know. I’m just giving her a hard time.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Maybe it’s the reference to alchemy, where she thinks about it and is like, “Oh, right, it’ll be in this section of this book.” Yeah, it’s just… you read so many words in a day, and it’s just like, “Ah, how do you retain any of it?”
Andy: But also, Flamel, if he’s based on a historical person and Hermione is Muggle-born, she could have gone home over the Christmas holidays, looked him up on Wikipedia.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: That’s right.
Andrew: The early days of Wikipedia. Very early days, yes.
[Andy laughs]
Andrew: Well, to that point, Andy, we would be remiss if we didn’t add that Nicolas Flamel was a real person, maybe the only real person brought over to the fictional wizarding world. He was actually rumored to be an alchemist here in the Muggle world, but even that has actually been up for debate. I was reading into this this week. I wanted to ask why we think it was necessary to bring a real life person into this fictional world? Was there a specific reason? Maybe to…
Micah: Validate?
Andrew: Validate, or to sort of make it a little easier to write the book, dare I say? Not that this book is lazy.
Micah: Maybe.
Eric: I think if you’re going to establish this wizarding world that has half existed or coexisted with the Muggle world, it’s really important, if not essential, to start saying, “Well, you’ve heard of this guy from real history; he was a wizard,” just as sort of a basis for establishing it. So Nicolas Flamel, being an alchemist, a scientist, a guy who’s already interested in breaking the boundaries of nature, expanding our understanding of it, is a perfect catalyst for introducing your wizarding world, making him, again, old friends with Dumbledore, the main, most powerful wizard we know in the book. So I think it just makes sense from a foundational standpoint that she would bridge the gap that way. But it also works because of the fact that in future books, it’s really heavily wizarding stuff that it gives the whole series sort of a foundational basis. This is the world as an offshoot from our world that we know. So I think it works. I think it’s really successful, but it also just makes sense. That’s why Merlin gets name dropped in this book too. It’s just that’s our point of reference, and she’s saying… when you’re borrowing this and creating a new fantasy canon, you basically just say, “Well, okay, so that thing that you’ve heard of – like dragons, for instance – is also real in this world.” It’s just, “I’m going to tell you about it.” So it’s setting up the building blocks to then delve deeper into the fictional world.
Andy: Yeah, I just thought it was an interesting thing to think about. I feel like there’s an alternate version of the seven Harry Potter books where each one is more cutely tied into real world things that happen. I can understand why that probably didn’t happen; I like that it’s grounded in fiction going forward, but I think there would be something kind of neat if it was interwoven with, I don’t know, historical figures of the royal family, for example, or members of the monarch are somehow involved in the wizarding world. I think that would be kind of cool. But also, I think it probably works better that that is the extent, a historical figure that people probably don’t really know, maybe.
Andrew: Yeah, no, I don’t think I knew Flamel. I mean, probably most people didn’t know, especially our age at the time.
Micah: That’s why they changed the name of the book.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Oh, we’ll get into that. I think there’s another reason there.
Micah: Us Americans. But I do like this, though, too, and I think going the route of if she had made the decision for Merlin to be the one, I think that would have been a little bit too easy. So I do like the fact that she went with somebody like Flamel, who’s a little bit less well known. But to your point, Eric, there is this establishment of certain pillars of what we know in magic lore, and she does a good job of bringing them in. I’m even thinking about Fluffy being the representation of Cerberus guarding the underworld. That was something that she threw in that she didn’t necessarily have to either. So I think she was drawing on things that some people may be familiar with, but then to Andy’s point, as the series goes on, she moves away from that and creates her own story. I did just want to mention that there is an entire fictional book series now that is dedicated to Nicolas Flamel. I’ve read a couple of them; they’re pretty good. It’s called The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel by Michael Scott; I think the first one came out in 2007 or so. And it’s a really cool series because it interweaves all these different mythological beings and creatures from all different mythologies around the world, so it’s not just like you’re focused on Greek mythology; there’s all different sorts of things that are brought into play. And of course, Nicolas Flamel and his wife are at the center of everything that’s going on.
Andrew: I never thought Michael Scott would be a author, but good for him.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: So let’s move on to another topic, like I mentioned a few minutes ago. I want to take a little history detour, because the book was called Sorcerer here in America, but everywhere else, it was called Philosopher’s Stone, and that was the original intended title. And as I think Micah just brought up a few minutes ago, most kids might not connect with a book that’s titled Philosopher because we don’t really know what that is; it’s not as cool and fun. But I was reading the history of the title change, and there’s stuff that maybe I had just forgotten about. Then Scholastic editor Arthur Levine said in an interview in 2012 that “Philosopher” didn’t feel magical enough to him, and he wanted to give the marketing team an extra leg to stand on. The marketing team at Scholastic was actually a little concerned about using the word “Philosopher’s.” It was Rowling who actually suggested using Sorcerer’s Stone after Levine had pitched “Harry Potter and the School of Magic.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: “School of Magic” is so bland.
Micah: Send that one to Poop Mountain.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Oh, man.
Andrew: It’s just like, “Harry Potter and a school.” It’s just… it doesn’t say anything. It doesn’t describe the story.
Eric: I feel like a few foreign titles might have changed it to just “The School of Magic,” but yeah, for America, you need something a little bit more punchy, a little bit more specific too. We’re so used to, in storytelling, this object, or what’s going to drive the plot forward? What’s the one thing that our hero needs to conquer or obtain? And so Sorcerer’s Stone is that. Also, alliteration is magic in and of itself.
Andrew: Yeah. “School of Magic” sounds like a book that’s trying to be the next Harry Potter. [laughs]
Micah: “Philosopher” also, to kids, probably seems really boring.
Andrew: Yeah, it just means old.
Eric: I did get that impression.
Micah: You think of philosophy. That sounds like something as a kid you don’t really want to study ever.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: My first formal education in philosophy was college level. I was 19 years of age. Like, what even is philosophy? Granted, there are kids who probably know that question. But yeah, as a kid who’s just stopped watching The Sorcerer’s Apprentice on repeat on VHS in my dad’s basement for the hundredth time, I’m going to connect to this book titled Sorcerer’s Stone far more readily than I would the Philosopher’s variant.
Andrew: Yeah, unlike Philosopher, Sorcerer feels mystical, magical. It’s more kid friendly. That said, Rowling later said, “To be honest, I wish I hadn’t agreed [to the title change], but it was my first book, and I was so grateful that anyone was publishing me I wanted to keep them happy.” And so of course, even though Harry Potter blew up here in America and around the world, we kept it “Sorcerer.” But it maybe would have been nice if they changed it to “Philosopher” in the later Harry Potter books?
Eric: Andy, how do you feel? Which do you feel is the better title?
Andy: I feel aligned to Philosopher’s because it’s the word that’s on the front cover of all my editions, and it’s the one I grew up with. But I’d love to say that I’m a smart, yeah, Australian kid, and we understood… I was 10 years old; I wouldn’t have had a clue what a Philosopher’s Stone was. So I totally agree that “Sorcerer’s Stone” seems more magical, and I love the alliteration, but it just makes me kind of shed a tear whenever, even in nostalgia referring to these books, that there are two titles.
Andrew: Yeah. It’s funny, Americans don’t have that feeling at all.
[Andy laughs]
Andrew: We would probably…
Eric: Yeah, we don’t regret it at all.
Andrew: Just because we grew up with it.
Eric: Right. But so it hooked you, Andy, despite the title being lesser than.
Andy: It did. I’m trying to think back to when I first read the book, and I think it was my dad had brought it back from a business trip to the UK. And not knowing who Harry Potter was at that point, so there’s the first part of the title. You’re like, “What is this?”
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andy: And then The Philosopher’s Stone. It could have been anything. And I remember reading the first chapter and being like, “Hmm, I’m not sure about this.” And it was, I think, at the point that Hagrid showed up that I was like, “Yeah, this is cool.” But again, nothing to do with philosophy or stones at that point at all. So who knows? Would the story have stood on its own two feet? Probably.
Andrew: Yeah. Now, Andy, you shared something with us that’s very interesting. It turns out that Mary Grand-Pré, the US illustrator, actually used the “School of Magic” title for some sketches? Tell us about that.
Andy: Yeah, so in one of my many nerdy deep dives in researching old Harry Potter things, I discovered a couple of sketches by Mary Grand-Pré, who did the US cover, the gorgeous cover art. So there is a version that she had done called “Harry Potter and the School of Magic,” and on the cover is Fluffy guarding the trapdoor. So that was obviously discarded for whatever reason. But then there is another version of the actual Sorcerer’s Stone cover, the one that made it to production, but with “School of Magic” in the title. So clearly, at some point, probably later on in the process, that was changed.
Andrew: Yeah. That’s really interesting because I guess this “School of Magic” title really stuck for some period of time, and maybe Scholastic said, “Hey, Mary, can you come up with the cover, get working on this, and then use this title?” And then maybe Arthur Levine shared this with Rowling. “Hey, check out this cover with this title. Do you think this works?” Maybe it was something like that. I’m just surprised that it got to the point where Mary Grand-Pré was using that title.
Eric: I love the idea that Arthur Levine is like, “Philosopher’s Stone? No, that has to go. I like the book… hmm, let’s just give it a little title in the middle here before we really settle on one to give to the illustrator” is very funny.
Andrew: I love this cover with Fluffy because Harry is poking his head out from underneath the trapdoor, looking up at Fluffy. I think that’s really clever.
Eric: It’s nice to see this sketch of Fluffy because I think it becomes one of the main chapter images, as in “Through the Trapdoor” is pretty much the same or similar pose for Fluffy, I’m remembering. And by the way, just a huge shout-out to Harry Potter Fan Zone’s exhaustively researched and extensive collection of images and chapter images, book covers. I mean, really nice work, Andy.
Andy: Thank you. Yeah, I spent one summer just absolutely pulling that together from everywhere I could.
Andrew: That’s awesome.
Eric: It really still works. On desktop, it looks phenomenal.
Andy: Thank you.
Micah: It’s probably worth mentioning we did interview Mary Grand-Pré on Episode 172 of MuggleCast, so that’s, what, over 400 episodes ago.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: But we did talk with her about a lot of what she illustrated for the Harry Potter series. So it’s cool to see. You’ve got to imagine she has so many other things that she drew that just ended up on the cutting room floor, or maybe are preserved in some way now. Be cool if she released a book of all of her Harry Potter art.
Andrew: Yeah, that would be very cool. Maybe one day she will. But we didn’t ask her about the “School of Magic” title. We’ll have to ask her about that if we ever get her back on, when she releases her Harry Potter archive book.
Micah: It’s only been 400 episodes, so I mean, who knows what she’s up to now?
Andrew: [laughs] Hey, Mary, we’re still around. You want to join us? But HufflepuffTeach brought up something in the Discord that I want to mention briefly. He says, “I think it still would have received the same level of attention in the US without a title change.” I think eventually, in time, it definitely would have. Of course, Harry Potter was one in a million, and once word of mouth started getting around about Harry Potter in the educational communities, in libraries, etc., it would have blown up all the same. The title wouldn’t have stopped that success. But this is what happens in the publishing industry; they sweat these titles. Now we get these titles that are like… it’s like Beyond the Wand, and then it’s this massive subtitle to describe what’s actually going on in the book. [laughs] There’s a lot that goes into these titles to sell them.
Eric: HallowWolf has a good point on Discord, or an interesting observation. “Looking at that book series, The Secrets of the Immortal Nicolas Flamel, on Amazon, none of the book titles in that series use the word ‘Philosopher’ either.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Even though that’s what Nicolas Flamel was, so that’s really funny.
Odds & Ends (“Nicolas Flamel”)
Andrew: So let’s move on to what else was going on in this chapter.
Micah: So the chapter actually opens up with Harry dreaming, and we know how important Harry’s dreams are in this series. And he’s reliving the moment where his parents were killed by Voldemort. I think this is actually the second time it’s referenced; I think there’s a mention of it a little bit earlier on in the book as well. This, of course, is following Dumbledore telling him not to go looking for the mirror anymore, and having just seen his family. But Harry is still not able to really connect the threads to what exactly he’s experiencing in this dream.
Andrew: Yeah, and you call it a dream, but is it a dream? Is it more of just their connection?
Micah: A nightmare, I guess?
Eric: A memory?
Andrew: Well, I just mean with Harry and Voldemort having a connection, I think it’s more than a dream. It’s just their connection activating to some extent, maybe, because Harry is not going to remember that night, right?
Eric: Well, it’s like when the Dementor comes in Book 3, and Harry relives his mother’s screaming. This is not something that Harry consciously remembers, but because he was a witness, because he was present, different magical things can kind of bring them out in Harry.
Andrew: Like his connection to Voldemort. [laughs]
Eric: Well, right. I mean, the connection to Voldemort is very much like Voldemort witnessed that too, and probably has a much better memory of that happening.
Andrew: Right, right, exactly.
Eric: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. But the other thing I was going to say is earlier on, I think the other reference to green light is when Harry is at home in the cupboard under the stairs, and he strains to think about the car accident. Whenever Petunia is lying to him about what happened, he strains and he sees a green light. So there is some memory there. There is some kind of connection. Harry knows that there was this huge traumatic event; he just can’t put words to it. So it’s interesting to see, as the plot unfolds, so too does Harry’s memory or understanding of the circumstances which brought him into this world. It’s just a really nice sort of poetic, gradual unfurling of his past.
Micah: Definitely. There’s also a really important line as it relates to Snape. The quote was that Harry “sometimes had the horrible feeling that Snape could read minds.” And I just thought that this was a very early tip-off to Snape’s ability as a Legilimens. And somebody else also threw in here a foreshadow alert.
[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]
Andrew: That is a good one. That is a good one. Also wanted to mention… so Snape being the Quidditch referee. The trio learns that he’s going to be the referee for this match, and Dumbledore is also at this game, so it’s kind of a rare event on multiple levels. And then you combine this with Harry’s incorrect read of Snape and Quirrell’s forest chat, and the reader continues to be set up very hard to believe that Snape is the bad guy and is trying to bring Quirrell over to the Dark side. And we’re also set up to believe that the trio needed to intervene in protecting the Stone because Quirrell is too weak to stand up to Snape’s bullying that we see by the end of this chapter.
Micah: Again, this is just classic misdirect, where Snape being named as the official is actually probably to protect Harry, not what Harry is thinking, which is to mess the match up. Though I’m sure Snape, if given the opportunity, would try and throw things Hufflepuff’s way.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I’m just wondering, though, did it have to be Snape? Let’s throw out the fact that he’s protecting Harry. Why is he officiating? First off, where’s Madam Hooch? What is she doing? She has one job.
Andrew: Is Hooch mad? Yeah. [laughs]
Micah: She’s got one job.
Andrew: Yeah, he could be…
Micah: Right? She teaches flying, and she’s a referee for Quidditch. Did she need the day off? Okay, fine, but there’s got to be somebody else who’s good at Quidditch at the school that could officiate.
Andrew: I guess you’re also saying that Snape could have just been on the sidelines trying to protect everybody, right?
Micah: Sure.
Andrew: And if something did go awry, he could just get on a broom and try to protect Harry.
Micah: Plus, Dumbledore is there this time. You don’t need Snape.
Andrew: Right. Well, there’s two levels of protection going on here because they seemingly don’t know what’s going, right? They don’t know where the threats are coming from.
Eric: Yeah, but I mean, in the brief time Snape has to make Gryffindor miserable, he does. He’s awarding fouls; he’s doing… basically just for no reason at all. I’m thankful that the game is over quick, because it seems like even if Snape isn’t there to attack Harry, he’s definitely there to put a hit on Gryffindor and their chances in the House championship.
Andrew: Harry describes Snape refereeing as a “sudden, sinister desire” to be ref. Really? Where did he get that from? [laughs]
Micah: And here’s the thing, though: No Head of House should be allowed to officiate, because you’re going to be biased, right?
Eric: Maybe.
Micah: That’d be like McGonagall refereeing.
Eric: Some people will be less biased than Snape is, though.
Andrew: If Snape was refereeing a match where Slytherin was playing, okay, I could see that being very unfair. This, I don’t know. And don’t you think Dumbledore pulled him aside before the game and said, “Yo, you gotta play fair here”? We’re just being set up to hate Snape more.
Eric: He earns it.
Andrew: And for the trio to hate Snape more.
Micah: True.
Andy: I don’t know why this thought came into my mind, but the thought of Snape – or I guess Alan Rickman – riding around on a broomstick, that’s just so atypical of the characterization we get in the films. I just find something so funny about that image, and which, given Alan Rickman’s diaries, I kind of just imagined him writing an excerpt that “They made me ride one of these bloody broom rigs again.” [laughs]
Andrew: “It was so uncomfortable. I hated every moment of it. I’m definitely not coming back for Movie 2 now.”
Andy: Totally, totally.
[Andrew and Andy laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting visual to think about because the juxtaposition of Snape is stubborn and grumpy, and Quidditch is fun! So it’d be like seeing Snape play a board game. You’re just not accustomed to that because of Snape’s general attitude. Snape doesn’t have fun. He’s mean. He’s in the dungeons. He’s in dark places. He’s never having fun.
Micah: And speaking of dark places, in the Forbidden Forest, this meeting between Snape and Quirrell… I’m just wondering why Voldemort doesn’t reveal himself to Snape in this moment. There’s other opportunities, but this one seems like a good one.
Eric: That’s a good question. He’s probably still sussing Snape out. But this would have been a perfect moment to just blow Harry’s mind completely. [laughs] Not only is Voldemort working with Quirrell, which is unexpected, but this whole allyship, this whole history that they share together, is just amazing. But it does work, I think, on scrutiny that Snape is really just trying to generally protect anyone who would greedily be trying to break through Hogwarts’s defenses. So it really works on just so many levels here.
Micah: Court in the Discord is saying that Voldemort doesn’t trust Snape yet. Okay, I’ll buy it.
Eric: Because as soon as… what is it, after the events of Goblet of Fire? Snape goes to Voldemort for the first time, and basically, according to “Spinner’s End” chapter, was able to provide reasonable enough explanations for their interactions in Book 1 here with Quirrell that it satisfies Voldemort that he’s not an agent for Dumbledore.
Andrew: It certainly would have been interesting to see for Harry to witness Voldemort and Snape talking in that moment, because it would have confirmed all of Harry’s suspicions. Then Harry would have run off to McGonagall or Dumbledore to report it, and they probably wouldn’t have believed him, and Hagrid wouldn’t have believed him either. So also, to wrap this chapter up, I wanted to mention I caught a few little life lessons in just a few different sentences that I thought were pretty interesting now that we’re older. So this first one: “Harry found that he had fewer nightmares when he was tired out after training.” I thought this one was a good tip for everybody. When you’re stressed, create a distraction. I used to have this terrible chest tightness when I had a lot of anxiety, and just going out and socializing, finally getting my head out of whatever situation I was in, it fixes a lot of your problems, and this line resonated with me. Another one here: “Chess was the only thing Hermione ever lost at, something Harry and Ron thought was very good for her.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Which is funny, but also, it’s a good life lesson because you’re not amazing at everything, so check your ego, and maybe do some things you’re not so good at if you think you’re pretty amazing. And then finally, after quickly winning the Quidditch match, putting them ahead of Slytherin in the championship, we get the line about Harry. “He couldn’t ever remember feeling happier. He’d really done something to be proud of now – no one could say he was just a famous name anymore.” And I love this line because it’s a feeling many people experience. “How do I make a name for myself?” And even though James was a Quidditch pro, Harry’s talent is clearly his own, he learns in this moment.
Andy: For sure. And to close out this chapter, I love that lots of chapters end with a big cliffhanger or some very poignant emotional moment, but I really, really enjoy these chapters that have some signature JKR wit. It’s always Ron that’s got these kind of dry lines, but I love “It’ll be gone by next Tuesday.” Full stop. End of the chapter. I love it.
Eric: It’s so good.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary (“Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback”)
Andrew: Time for Chapter 14, “Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback,” and we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary. Micah, go.
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Micah: Hagrid…
Andrew: Ooh, lots of directions I can take… reveals…
Andy: … illegal…
Eric: [laughs] … practices…
Micah: … inside…
Andrew: … his…
Andy: … hut. [laughs]
Andrew: Beautiful.
Andy: I could have come up with something better than that.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Andrew: No, hut’s good.
Micah: That’s what I was hoping for.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I am looking forward… yes, a complete sentence. Congratulations, everybody. We did it.
[Andrew and Andy laugh]
Eric: By the way, important to mention at this point, we are being graded by our patrons over on our patrons Facebook group. I mentioned last week I was hoping they would step up. Turns out I had missed a bunch of notifications.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: So thanks to Michael, who’s been doing that. I have to say, we’ve got about 20 or so votes for all of the chapters so far, and Chapters 9 and 10, which we did two episodes ago, were ranked Outstanding.
Andrew: Ooh, good.
Eric: So we’re giving it some time for the votes to play. As long as they keep rating us great, we can keep that Facebook group operational.
Andrew: No pressure for us to get this to good summaries.
[Eric laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion (“Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback”)
Andrew: So this is a self-contained chapter in a lot of ways, which is pretty interesting. The trio learn about Hagrid’s dragon at the start of the chapter, and by the end, the issue of Norbert – or Norberta – is resolved. They do manage to get a little more info about the protection around the Sorcerer’s Stone, thanks to revealing to Hagrid that they’ve already learned about Nicolas Flamel, and flattering him. Hermione says, “Who else does Dumbledore trust besides you, Hagrid? We must know.” And the book says Hagrid’s “chest swelled.” [laughs] Another good life lesson here: If you use a little flattery, it can work on someone who might need some love, and Hagrid is definitely somebody who probably deserves a little more love.
Andy: I feel like Tom Riddle has mastered this skill.
Eric: Oh, it’s so good.
Andrew: Yeah, for sure. So when they do get to his hut in hopes of learning some more info about Flamel and the Stone, they meet Hagrid’s egg. And this part of the book, just this one paragraph, is wild, because Hagrid says, while sitting with the egg, that no one knows how to get past Fluffy besides him and Dumbledore. But then we learn seconds later that Hagrid got his dragon egg from Quirrell under cover. Of course, he didn’t know that. It was Quirrell who gave it to Hagrid to learn more about Fluffy! [laughs] So it’s actually not just him and Dumbledore who know how to get past Fluffy.
Eric: Oh, poor Hagrid needs to lay off the drink. It’s affecting his memory centers.
Micah: Not just the drink, though. I think part of it is just the trusting nature of Hagrid, right? He’s sitting there with somebody who has his cloak pulled up above his head, and that doesn’t raise any kind of suspicion for him. He’s totally fine with it.
Andrew: And I think it’s even noted in the books that he did have a few drinks in him, so presumably, he was a little buzzed. He was probably having a good time. We see this in TV and movies all the time. You get talking at the bar. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah. Well, did this happen at the Hog’s Head? Because shouldn’t Aberforth have been there to prevent this happening as well? There’s a couple of questions. But I think… we were just talking about Voldemort’s ability to persuade people to give him information they otherwise would not part with. This is peak Voldemort, actually, that we’re seeing in Quirrell. Quirrell brought a gift that he probably hinted or indicated to Hagrid what it was. Hagrid’s interest is piqued. Over plain, simple enough conversation, Hagrid then grows greedy for it, or hungry for it. He wants this, it’s something that he wants, and then he’ll volunteer anything to get it. But you can’t, at the same time, really raise the red flag of “This person is trying to break into the school.” So it’s just deftly played and amazingly orchestrated the whole way through.
Andrew: Yeah. And of course, it also has to be noted that the future Care of Magical Creatures teacher is raising a fire-breathing dragon in his wooden hut, and this is even noted by the 12-year-olds, the 11-year-olds, how dangerous of an idea this is.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: And then later Ron’s finger is bit and starts looking like Dumbledore’s hand in Half-Blood Prince, and then he hides that from Pomfrey. He doesn’t tell her that it was a dragon. But this also gave me an idea for another HBO Max series, so it’s time to Max that!
[“Max that” sound effect plays]
Andrew: So this is a miniseries with very short episodes. Think about those mini shows on Disney+; there’s a lot of them at this point, like Forky Asks a Question, which is a Toy Story spinoff. They’re three minute episodes. And in this show, we see Hagrid trying to raise Norbert, and each episode he’s just trying to do one thing, whether it’s obedience training, only shooting out small fires instead of larger ones, walking Norbert on a leash, cuddling with Hagrid without setting his beard on fire, not screaming in the middle of the night, etc., etc. And each episode actually has Hagrid failing to successfully train Norbert, but with each one, you’re hoping he finally manages to pull off one training session, and he never does. But you’re hoping. You’re like, “It’s got to happen at some point, right?” And then it doesn’t.
Eric: Amazing.
Andy: I’d watch that.
Andrew: Wouldn’t that be cute? Hagrid and Norbert? Aww.
Micah: Animated, though, right?
Andrew: Oh, yeah, that’d actually be really sweet.
Andy: They could call it “Heart of the Dragon.”
Andrew: Yeah, “Heart of the Dragon”! That’d be really cute. A Game of Thrones spinoff.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: This whole scene, though, that plays out, one of the things that came to mind for me is that it really begins the setup for Hagrid as a bit of a reckless professor. We know he’s not an official professor yet, but I’m thinking first about Fluffy, the name itself that he gives this ferocious three-headed dog that has injured Snape, right? Snape is no pushover. And now Norbert. And you mentioned that he’s raising Norbert in this wooden hut, a fire-breathing dragon. We know he’s got this spot for seriously misunderstood creatures, because I think he himself is one.
Eric: Very much so.
Andrew: Yeah, I thought that was a really, really thoughtful point. And it also made me wonder: Could the trio be considered misunderstood? Or just misfits, by Hagrid? And maybe this is another reason why he’s giving them info about how the Stone is protected.
Eric: This really kind of underlines the whole book series being for misunderstood, for misfits, for outcasts. Hagrid, who is allowed to remain at Hogwarts, but never graduated Hogwarts, takes in these creatures that do have some redeeming qualities – except for the Blast-Ended Skrewts – and really just deserve the love and support that he gives them, to an extent. I see a lot of Newt Scamander in Hagrid in this chapter, really just overall extending love and care, and were taken in. Hagrid was our intro into the wizarding world, so staying with Hagrid, getting to really see what he’s all about and his care for these creatures, really does feel like we should care about them too.
Andrew: Yeah. I wonder what Newt would think of Hagrid raising a dragon in his hut.
Eric: [laughs] He would say, “At least borrow my suitcase because it’s not made of wood and it will protect… to create an environment where you can keep them.”
Andrew: Right. And as the trio, I think, points out, the dragon is going to be growing pretty quickly. So are you thinking ahead here, Hagrid? I mean, what are you going to do with this thing when it’s way too big for the hut?
Eric: Well, and if Newt gave Hagrid Aragog, presumably – which is as close to canon as I think we can speculate – Acromantulas also grow very, very, very large, too large for a school. So I would like to think that Newt would follow up and give him some extendable locations to put some of these creatures in. Maybe a little bit of a after-the-fact plot hole kind of a thing. But the big thing for me about this self-contained Hagrid chapter is if this weren’t in the book – and it does do little things here to support the overall Quirrell and Philosopher’s Stone plot that’s going on – but I think that one of the main reasons this thing is a huge part of the book, with the detention, Malfoy, the dragon, all this illegal crap that Hagrid should really know better, is because the very next book we lose Hagrid to Azkaban for his love of magical creatures, basically. Harry has to believe that it’s possible that Hagrid really did open the Chamber of Secrets, and so there wouldn’t have been enough time just in Book 2 to establish that, so I love that even though no sequel was guaranteed at the time this book was written, the foundation is laid for a pretty big part of Book 2 right here in the middle of Book 1.
Andrew: I think that’s a really good point.
Eric: So it’s because Hagrid did this that Harry is like, “Damn, could he have been the guy who opened it?” So yeah, that’s why the Ministry comes. Everybody knows Hagrid’s recklessness, and without Dumbledore to protect him, he’s as good as gone.
Andrew: Right. That’s fascinating.
Andy: I also think, to that point that you had about the necessity of this chapter, one thing I actually thought about when I read this again yesterday – and this is probably the first time I’ve read this chapter since seeing Fantastic Beasts – but I know that Dumbledore is kind of playing puppet master with Newt and Frank and getting him into New York, and Dumbledore is almost thinking 27 steps ahead to orchestrate all these little mini plays to get something else happening down the line, and I wonder… Hagrid becomes a teacher; Hagrid has other interactions with magical creatures that are important to Harry’s quest. I wonder how much Dumbledore is sitting there behind the scenes orchestrating this to some extent.
Micah: It’s kind of impossible for Dumbledore to not know things that are going on at his school, right? And going off of what you said, Andy, the trio implement this big escape for Norbert, and it’s just kind of… to me, it would be hard for Dumbledore to not know what’s going on, right? That they’re working behind the scenes, essentially, to get the dragon out of Hagrid’s hut and up to the tallest tower. This is like a tie to Prisoner of Azkaban, right? Where they’re freeing the person/creature in the tallest tower. Sort of connecting the threads a little bit when they free Sirius at the end of that book.
Andrew: I think we’ve said this on the show before: Dumbledore has to know everything that’s going on – he just has to – in the school. There’s no way anything happens without him knowing. But he lets it all go. I think he gets a little kick out of all of it, watching.
Eric: Oh, he absolutely does.
Andrew: And he’ll intervene if he needs to, but it’s all worked out, right? [laughs]
Eric: The fact that… how Harry gets his cloak back is just… Dumbledore knows and watches everything. It’s basically how he gets his kicks, seriously, is Dumbledore, Dumbledore, Dumbledore.
Micah: I was just wondering for Ron, right? He gets bit by a dragon, and clearly his hand is not healing itself; it’s getting worse. Shouldn’t he go get this checked out properly? I know he’s a kid; he’s probably like, “Ah, you know what? It’ll be better in the morning.” But this is kind of serious. You don’t know what is in dragon saliva that could have gotten into his system. It could have killed him!
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, this is what you do as a kid, right? You lie to avoid getting in any worse trouble. But then you also have to ask yourself, shouldn’t Pomfrey have maybe known just by looking at it what it was? Or at least had a clue? But then I guess she would be like, “Well, there’s no dragons here, so it couldn’t be that.”
Eric: I can appreciate Ron not wanting to get Hagrid in trouble, but there should be maybe some special… because yeah, there could be untold problems here.
Micah: Poor Ron; he’s barfing slugs in the next book, and…
Andrew: [laughs] It’s always Ron.
Eric: Well, he has to be close enough to Harry that Harry cares, but Harry himself can’t keep getting injured, so it’s just… [laughs] Poor sidekick syndrome.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, Harry suggests sending Norbert off to Ron’s dragon-loving brother Charlie, and later the mission to send Norbert with Charlie’s friends is nearly a total success. We also hadn’t mentioned yet that Draco caught sight of Norbert, and that was another reason that Norbert had to be moved elsewhere. And Draco is later caught by McGonagall trying to catch Harry sending out the dragon, so yay for that. But of course, McGonagall doesn’t know that Draco is actually telling the truth about the dragon.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: And it’s a great success, except they forgot the cloak and they get caught by Filch, which we’ll get into in the next Chapter by Chapter episode. So that’s the chapter. Like I said at the beginning, pretty straightforward. Clear beginning, middle, and end. But Andy, maybe we should jump to your point here about why you love this chapter so much. I was actually thinking of doing an Evanesco this chapter segment…
[Andy and Eric laugh]
Andrew: … but you’ve changed my mind.
Eric: You’ve saved it from the brink of oblivion, Andy.
Andy: Priori Incantatem. We’ll pull it back.
[Andrew laughs]
Andy: Yeah, I love this chapter because I think this is one of the first chapters where we really kind of deviate in the film world. And I know that rereading these stories as an adult, I find it very hard to go back to my pre-Warner Bros. image of what the wizarding world and the characters and the scenes looked like. And chapters like this – and then I think St. Mungo’s in Order of the Phoenix, and maybe the Gaunt shack in Half-Blood Prince – these are chapters… I don’t want to say unspoiled, because it sounds like a pejorative, but untouched by film magic, and so I feel like you can immerse yourself more in these stories. I have no frame of reference for Harry and co. being up on the top tower releasing a dragon. Maybe the TV series one day will take that away again, but for now, yeah, these are really nice to enjoy.
Eric: It’ll be a whole episode. [laughs]
Andy: For sure.
Andrew: Yeah, I was actually just going to say, I think you bring up a really good point here. It’s untouched. It’s kind of refreshing to read these because they are unsullied.
Micah: That’s a good word.
Andrew: Unsullied, yeah. Is that a word? Unsullied? [laughs]
Micah: Game of Thrones reference.
Eric: It was on the top of my mind there.
Micah: You can understand why the movie chose to go the direction that they did in combining things here, but I actually agree. There are things that I’m reading that I definitely didn’t remember. I didn’t remember Ron’s hand got bit; that was totally… it was almost like I was reading it for the first time in a lot of ways. So I do like what you’re saying, Andy. It’s like it’s untouched, and it’s only something that we as readers can experience because it hasn’t been transferred to the screen yet.
Andrew: Right. It’s also great for any of us who go to Harry Potter trivia nights, because rereading this book helps us remember the little things, and then we can nail some of those tougher questions.
Eric: I miss those, Andrew.
Andrew: Me too.
Eric: You’ve got to find one.
Odds & Ends (“Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback”)
Andrew: What else do we want to talk about?
Micah: It’s mentioned, when Hermione is studying for exams, that she’s reciting the 12 uses of dragon’s blood, so I’m glad that she knows what they are, but we as readers still have absolutely no clue.
Andrew: So close and yet so far.
Eric: It’s so tantalizing now. I really need to know what they… because I feel like they could be mundane, but at the same time, I feel like they’d be relevant to a future plot of a future thing in the wizarding world.
Andrew: Yeah. Also, I feel like different dragon blood would do different things.
Eric: That’s interesting.
Andrew: I was thinking about this this week. Are we really to believe that all dragon blood types all do the same things? I don’t know if I buy that. So maybe there’s 500 different things you can do with dragon’s blood.
Micah: But there’s that number 12 again, though, Andrew.
Andrew: Yes. And speaking of dragons, there are dragons in Britain, and Ron confirms that, but the Ministry tries to cover them up and wipe Muggles’ memories when they see them. And reading up on the dragons in Britain more, the Common Welsh Green is native to mountains, and the Hebridean Blacks stay in the islands of Scotland. So they have their space where they can stay away from humans, but I’m imagining that sometimes either humans go to where they are, or a dragon goes awry and comes down to where the people are.
Eric: I love this idea of the unexplored or just uninhabited parts of the countryside. Even America has lots of this, and I don’t often see it living in a big city, but it’s the same with the giants in these books. When she talks about them, really just “Muggles think they’re mountains.” [laughs] It’s really a clever way of hiding in plain sight. Again, just affirming with a head nod that the wizarding world is very real and Muggles just don’t notice nuffink. It’s really, really cool stuff to just hide it in plain sight. So yes, there are dragons; they’re just up in the highlands. You wouldn’t go there. It’s not a big deal.
Andy: In Fantastic Beasts the textbook, there is a nod to the dodo going extinct, but in the wizarding world context… there it is. We’re tying to historical creatures.
Eric: She made them Diricawls, which teleport and transport away, so that’s why you haven’t seen a dodo, is because they, whoosh.
Andy: Yeah, I love that.
Andrew: It also made me think, “Oh, this is what Wizards Unite, the Pokémon Go spinoff game, could have been. Capturing dragons and other wizarding creatures.” I still have Wizards Unite on my phone, by the way. I won’t delete it, even though the game’s been shut down.
Eric: It’s probably taking up 30 gigabytes. Just get rid of it.
Andrew: [laughs] No! Memories!
Micah: When you mentioned earlier how Ron talks about the fact that there are dragons, but the Ministry tries to cover them up if Muggles see them, it made me think of Deathly Hallows when they break out of Gringotts and they’re actually riding a dragon through London, so I wonder how many Ministry officials it took to wipe those memories out.
Andy: Well, there is also in the cold open to Half-Blood Prince, in “The Other Minister,” there’s a line there where they’re doing that retrospective thing about magical stuff interfering with the Muggle world, and there’s the line there about importing dragons for the Triwizard Tournament and having to run that by the PM.
Andrew: Ahh.
Eric: That’s such a good chapter. Talk about unsullied chapters. There’s that.
[Andrew laughs]
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Now it’s time for MVP of the Week!
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to Snape. I initially was going to say for putting in the work to keep Quirrell away from the Stone, but now I’m going to say for getting on a broom and refereeing, because you probably weren’t comfortable doing that, just like we weren’t comfortable watching it, but you were a team player and did it anyway.
Micah: I’m going to give it to Charlie Weasley for coming through clutch for his brother in a pinch, helping Harry and team start their hijinks of being out at night in the castle and doing bad things that they shouldn’t be doing.
Eric: I’m going to give it to Dumbledore for finally showing up to a Quidditch match that Harry is playing in.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Way to support. Way to move all your other scheduled things aside. Checking your busy calendar and going, “I can be present for this.” And he shows up and pats Harry on the back there, literally on the shoulder. Harry looks up and he’s smiling at him. Very nice.
Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Good job, my boy.”
Eric: Yeah! I love it.
Andy: So I’m going to give my vote to Neville. So in the first chapter, he gets bullied on numerous occasions by Malfoy. He gets physically humiliated, and then he gets laughed at by his own peers when he comes back into the common room, and I feel like he needs some love and support. So yeah, Neville, we’ve got you, mate.
Andrew: Aww, that’s nice of you. Yeah, Harry made a comment about Draco to Neville that then Neville repeated pretty much verbatim to Draco, which I love.
Micah: With the number 12. The number 12 again.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: Yep. So many uses of 12.
Eric: What does it mean??
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: Yeah, what does it mean?
Andrew: And by the way, Dumbledore finally showing up to a Quidditch game. Do you think it’s true that he rarely shows up, if ever, to Quidditch games? Or is that just the trio perceiving it because they’re new and this is the first time? Because I feel like Dumbledore would really be into Quidditch and watching his students play Quidditch. Is he that busy?
Eric: Yeah, you would like to… no, I think as headmaster of the school, you’re entitled to feel pride in all of your students, no matter what, including their athletic abilities. Quidditch is exciting! I would absolutely show up there if I didn’t have better things to do.
Andrew: Yeah, I don’t think Dumbledore has better things to do. I just don’t think he’s that busy.
Eric: Thank you. I’m so… you were the voice we needed last week.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: Next week on MuggleCast, it’s likely going to be a MuggleMail episode, so get your feedback in about the chapters that we’ve been discussing, and we’ll discuss what everybody thinks of these recent chapters, and maybe we’ll take the MuggleMail mailbag some other directions. If you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can send an owl to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send a voice message; just record it using the voice memo app on your phone, and then email us that file. Or use our phone number: 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453.
Quizzitch
Andrew: Now it’s time – speaking of Quidditch – for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Last week’s question: In Sorcerer’s Stone, how old is Nicolas Flamel at the time of Harry’s first year at Hogwarts? We can argue wording, but the book says, “Mr. Flamel, who celebrated his 665th birthday last year…” Which means this year he would be 666. That’s the number I’m looking for.
Andrew: What a great year to die, when you’re 666.
Eric: [laughs] Right? So that was the answer I was looking for. And I will point out that many people submitted and said, “Well, the book should be keeping itself up to date magically, or Nicolas Flamel could be many years older.”
Andrew: I was thinking that too. Do books update themselves? If the pictures move, why can’t the text change?
Eric: It’s also just a weird way to say he’s 666, is “Last year he celebrated his 665th…” Does Laura Mallory know that this is in the book? We should call her up.
Andrew: [laughs] No wonder she was so angry.
Eric: Feel like she’d have a bone to pick about it. Very special number.
Micah: Her phone number has a lot of sixes in it too, from what I heard.
Eric: [laughs] Oh my God. Anyway, correct answers were submitted by a few people, including Elizabeth K., Sir King of Kings, Bort Voldemort Returns, This Y’all Is for Laura, Evil Ringo, Justice for Movie Ginny, Pumpledore, Bubotuber Pus, and Number One Gryffinclaw supporter. Next week’s question…
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Which real life wizard rock artist wrote a classic spurned love ballad titled “1991 (Charlie Weasley)”? It’s a song I definitely want everyone to check out; that’s why I’m making it a Quizzitch question.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But also has to do with our chapter of “Norbert the Norwegian Ridgeback.” Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or choose “Quizzitch” from the main nav.
Andrew: Make sure you’re following the show for free in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode, and leave us a review if they allow you to; we really appreciate those. Also, don’t forget to follow us on social media. We are MuggleCast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. We got some new original artwork done for our Patreon and the various tiers, and we unveiled it to patrons a couple days ago, and we’ll be posting those on social media as well so you can appreciate all the details there. It’s nice to have some great new artwork, and thank you to Anna for once again working with us. She did our current album art and some other projects for us too – including the stickers for the MuggleCast Collector’s Club – and now we worked with her again on the new tier art, so look forward to that on social media this week. Andy, thanks again for joining us today. Great having you on.
Andy: Thank you. Always a pleasure.
Andrew: We’ll record at an earlier time for you in a future episode.
[Andrew and Andy laugh]
Eric: Let’s all get up at 2:00 a.m. our time next time, and it’ll be a reasonable hour.
Andrew: And some of our Australian listeners will be like, “Yay! They’re finally recording at a time I can listen live at. That’s so exciting.”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: But yeah, we can find you at HarryPotterFanZone.com. Anything else you want to plug? Maybe your social media or…?
Andy: Yeah, HarryPotterFanZone.com, and HPFZ on Twitter and Facebook, and go check out the picture gallery on HarryPotterFanZone because I’ve put a lot of effort into finding all the nostalgia I can get to throw out there. So yeah, it’s a lot of fun for a deep dive.
Andrew: Let’s put a link to that in the show notes so people can easily find it. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Andy: And I’m Andy.
Andrew: Bye, everybody!
Eric and Micah: Bye.