Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #619, Unfogging the Fraud (POA Chapter 16, Professor Trelawney’s Prediction)
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And this week, pull out your crystal balls, because your Harry Potter friends will discuss Chapter 16 of Prisoner of Azkaban, “Professor Trelawney’s Prediction.” A very big chapter. And to help us with today’s discussion, we’re very excited about today’s guest, Professor Julian Wamble, PhD. We found you on TikTok. Welcome, Julian!
Julian Wamble: What a time. Thank you so much for having me.
Andrew: [laughs] What a time indeed. We were following you on social media. A couple of our listeners found your videos on TikTok; they were like, “MuggleCast, you’ve got to have Julian on,” because you share so many insightful thoughts on Harry Potter. Your username on TikTok is @ProfW, and we wanted to talk about that first with you.
Julian: Sure.
Andrew: Just to give listeners a quick intro, you have built up a following on TikTok talking about Harry Potter. You teach a college course on Harry Potter titled “Harry Potter and the Politics of Social Identity.” Can you tell us about that?
Julian: Sure, so the class is kind of using Harry Potter as a Trojan horse – one of my students said that to me once, and I was like, “Oh, yeah, that’s actually a really good way of thinking about it…”
[Everyone laughs]
Julian: … to talk about things like identity, which can be kind of dicey to talk about sometimes for people. And so what we do is we read the latter four books of the series, and we dissect them through seven themes, like social class, power, the media, law and politics, gender, things like that. And so every week we come in and we just talk about a section of chapters from these books, and I do a little bit… I mean, to call them lectures feels generous. Mostly it’s just me ranting.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: And something smart happens to come out every so often, and that’s what ends up on TikTok.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Wow, that sounds like pretty much what we do on our podcast. [laughs]
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
Julian: So it’s a match made in heaven.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: Yeah, and so the class is a blast to teach, and we just have a really good time.
Andrew: Awesome.
Eric: I think you left one crucial detail out: How do we sign up? Do we have to be enrolled in the college?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Is there a virtual component?
Julian: [laughs] That was part of the motivation for posting it on TikTok, was because everyone asked that question, particularly Millennials who were like, “Where was this when I was in college?” And so I was like, “Well, what if I just post little snippets of the class?” And then it took off in ways that I never predicted. And so I’m trying to think of ways to make it more accessible to people, but it’s a bit tricky because GW might not love that.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Julian: [laughs] So I’m trying to make it work in ways that makes everyone happy and keeps me employed.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: So more on that later, once I figure it out.
Andrew: Yes, keep us posted, and we’ll definitely let listeners know.
Julian: For sure.
Andrew: George Washington University. GW. How long have you been a Harry Potter fan?
Julian: Um…
Eric: [laughs] That’s a good answer.
Andrew: Are you a Millennial?
Julian: I am a Millennial, so I started reading them when they first came out.
Andrew: Okay, great.
Julian: So since the late ’90s.
Laura: Yep, so we’re all in the same boat.
Andrew: How were you introduced to Harry Potter, then? Because we’re Millennials. I was introduced through my fourth grade teacher; she read the first book.
Julian: Yeah, I got the third book on accident at a Scholastic Book Fair – TBT – and realized it was the third, went back, and got the first. And then I also had a teacher who would, during lunch, invite me in, and she would read them, and so that’s kind of how I really got into them. But yeah, it was all through the book fair, and I was like, “There’s a kid on a broom; this feels like my vibe,” and so we just went from there.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: That’s great. Is there a ton of demand at George Washington University for this course? I just have to think there is. [laughs] How many people are in your class?
Julian: Just 14, which is part of the…
[Andrew gasps]
Julian: Yeah, it’s very, very… some might say exclusive, but it’s not that exclusive; it’s just the way that the class is set up. So it’s mostly seniors, 14 students, and so this year coming will be the first year that I teach it twice, so I’m teaching it in the fall and in the spring.
Laura: Ahh, okay.
Julian: And so normally I just teach it in the spring, because I think it’s the perfect kind of senior “We’re graduating” kind of class, but the demand for it is aggressive.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: Which is great, but I feel bad because I can only teach but so many students. And so yeah, and GW is great because… because political science, which is what I teach, is the biggest major, they kind of give us carte blanche to teach whatever we want, and so there’s a class on… I teach Harry Potter; one of my other colleagues teaches on Lord of the Rings, so we just kind of get to nerd out, which is a lot of fun.
Laura: Wow, I should have gone to GW. This is what I’m learning. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, I was just going to say, we have younger listeners too. Kids, try to get to GW; then you can take cool courses like this.
Julian: Honestly, you know? It works.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. So you were teaching this course, you decided to start posting your videos on TikTok, that’s when it blew up, and now you’re also posting videos from the car, I see.
Julian: Yeah, because I realized… so normally, what I would do is I would go into class and I would just kind of prop my phone up against the computer screen and just record. But now I’m not working because we’re off for the summer, so I was like, “Well, how do we keep the conversations going?” Also, because of the way the class is structured, there are things that I just can’t get into, and so I thought, “Why not just post from wherever?” And I first… the thing about posting on TikTok sometimes is that you can get very caught up in the kind of fanciness of it all, because some people really go crazy, and then other people are just propping their phone up in their car. And I was like, “Why don’t I just do that?” And so now it just sits on my steering wheel, and I just rant for a bit, and I go and edit it, and there you have it.
Andrew: [laughs] Yeah. I think maybe to people who don’t know you and haven’t seen your videos before, if they’re flipping through and happen to see one of these videos, I think the car also implies you suddenly had a thought that you had to pull over for and get out on TikTok. You know what I mean?
Julian: I’m so glad that that’s the vibe it’s giving, because really, it’s just me in my driveway.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: That’s amazing.
Andrew: “Going to my studio.” It’s just the car.
Julian: “Be right back. The AC is on low.”
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: No, I love it. It’s like a summer edit version of your class, which is great.
Julian: Yeah, I really… and it’s a little bit more fun because we can talk about things that aren’t necessarily within the bounds of the books that we’re reading for class, and we can kind of… it lets me also engage with questions that people have posted on other videos, and so it’s a little bit more casual in its presentation. So yeah, I really enjoy it.
Andrew: Cool. So I was thinking, with J.K. Rowling sharing her controversial thoughts on trans people online, have you seen any backlash at school about having a course like yours? Because I’m thinking about how on campuses there are student protests and backlash about professors and courses and whatnot. Do you see any of that?
Julian: Not for me, but I think it’s because I started teaching this class in the fall of 2020, which was right around the time that she first espoused these kind of dangerous things. And so I put in my syllabus a massive, massive paragraph at the very top, being like, “Let’s unpack this and let’s talk about why it is that I’m teaching this class despite – or in some ways, in spite of – what J.K. Rowling has put out into the world,” and trying to be very intentional, both in the syllabus, but also on the first day of class and throughout the semester about what it is that I’m trying to do in using her books, and so I think that level of transparency has kept me from being seen in a very particular way. Or because we’re not necessarily praising the books in a lot of ways, and a lot of it is just really heavily, heavily critiquing it, and also acknowledging the spaces and places in the books where we see some of these beliefs that as kids you don’t necessarily see jump out in very egregious ways. And so I try to be transparent about that, for the sake of avoiding that kind of backlash from people who may not understand exactly what it is that I’m trying to get at in the class.
Andrew: Got it.
Laura: That’s perfect.
Andrew: Yeah, well said.
Laura: We try to walk the same line here, and it’s always really interesting to unpack the subtext of these stories through the lens of understanding who wrote them. That in and of itself is a whole discussion, and it sounds like it’s a discussion you have frequently.
Julian: Oh, yeah. And I think for me, part of the unpacking of identity, right, is recognizing spaces and places where even intentionally and unintentionally, identity-based biases jump out. And so it adds an extra layer to the course by thinking about who wrote it and what we know about her beliefs and her own identity and the way that those things are kind of woven throughout the text, right? And so then that helps us understand, again, this importance of identity and social spaces.
Eric: So much of that, too, comes… I think the college age is the perfect time to… it went way over our heads the first time we’re reading it, and then the second time, it’s like, “Wait, what do you mean if a girl doesn’t become a mom, she’s killed off in Harry Potter?” And it’s like, “What? Whoa!”
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Julian: Yeah, what do you mean that none of the women characters in these books like one another? Isn’t that strange?
Eric: That’s interesting.
Julian: Yeah, and so it just allows us to, I think, think a little bit deeper, not only about Harry Potter, but where these trends come from. And granted, we have to add a lot of caveats because of when it was written. The ’90s were the wild, wild west, you know?
Laura: Yep. [laughs]
Julian: What a wild time to be alive.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: And so there’s a lot of things there that we have to contextualize, but I still think it speaks to something larger.
Andrew: And this is why we enjoy doing Chapter by Chapter on the show again. This is kind of our second time, because we’re adults now; we’re looking at these books through a different lens. Well, Julian, so excited to have you, once again. We’ll get to Chapter by Chapter in just a moment, but first, to our listeners, don’t wish you had a Time-Turner. Time is running out to become a patron and order the Patreon exclusive MuggleCast beanie! We’re very excited about this year’s physical gift. It’s a knitted, high quality beanie. The colors were inspired by our album art, and we’ve got a MuggleCast patch stitched in. I’m seeing Micah tomorrow; I think I’ll give him my beanie. As we have a record heat wave here in Vegas, I’ll make him wear it in 110 degree weather. I think that should work out. [laughs]
Eric: Well, plus, Micah always wears a hat to recording.
Andrew: Yes!
Eric: So if you give him the beanie, he’ll just take it back and he’ll wear it on next week’s episode.
Andrew: Yeah, join our Patreon at the Slug Club level to receive this year’s physical gift. You must sign up and fill out the order form by August 1. Please, everybody, whether you’re a new or old Slug Club patron, you have to fill out the order form. And there’s also a plethora of other bonus material on our Patreon, so check it all out. Patreon.com/MuggleCast. We couldn’t do this without your support.
Eric: Yeah, and just another note here: We have LeakyCon coming up in just a couple of weeks, and it’s a very exciting thing to be back together in person. Speaking of, there’s a meetup in downtown Chicago; this is going to be open to the public on Friday, August 4, I want to say? Yep, Friday August 4, at 7:00 p.m. And we’d like to get a head count for everybody, so if you think you will be in the general Chicagoland area at that time, the meetup will be downtown. There’s an RSVP form to fill out; we’ll put it in the show notes. But we’d really love to see you. Micah and I don’t get together too often in person, and especially with our listeners. I think the last time it happened was in Boston for LeakyCon in 2018, so that gives you an idea how rare and special these meetups are.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: So come on out. It’s also at a really great location. We can’t say what it is yet, but I really like it there.
Andrew: Cool.
Eric: It’s one of my favorite Chicago places. So come; fill out the RSVP form before you do to make sure that there’s room for you.
Andrew: Link in the show notes as well.
Eric: Link in the show notes, and we’ll talk about LeakyCon at the end of the show.
Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary
Andrew: So now let’s get to Chapter by Chapter, and we’re discussing Chapter 16 of Prisoner of Azkaban, “Professor Trelawney’s Prediction,” and we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary. Julian, this is a high stress event. I hope you’re ready for this.
Julian: Okay.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Just warning you now… he’s checking his pulse. [laughs]
[Seven-Word Summary music plays]
Eric: Exams…
Andrew: … consume…
Julian: … clairvoyance…
Laura: Oooh.
Andrew: Yeah, a teacher would use that word.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Eric: That’s the best word we’ve yet…
Laura: … and…
Eric: Oh, okay, “and.”
Laura: I’m going to provide the connector here.
Eric: … shocking…
Andrew: … revelations…
Julian: … executions.
Andrew: [laughs] “Revelations, comma, executions.” Right? Okay.
Laura: No, I think this is great. Julian, you really leveled up our Seven-Word Summary. It’s usually not this… I mean, usually it doesn’t involve words like “clairvoyance.” [laughs]
Julian: I was going to go with “prediction,” but that just felt not quite on the money.
Eric: Oh, we try not to say a word in the chapter in the Seven-Word Summary…
Julian: See? Boom. That’s it.
Eric: You rocked it.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Andrew: So it is exam time, and in the writing in this chapter, we kind of speed through the various exams to focus on the big one at the end, and of course, Buckbeak’s execution. However, at the top of the chapter, Hermione does have exams double-booked. Monday 9:00 a.m. she’s got two exams, maybe the clearest sign yet that something is up; she might have a Time-Turner. But what could the boys…? I mean, they don’t even know about Time-Turners at this point, so what could the boys have thought? A professor told her she gets to take one at a different time? I think that would be a reasonable excuse to make up.
Laura: Yeah. I think Ron thinks that she’s starting to crack, right?
[Eric laughs]
Laura: Because we have these other examples of Hermione exhibiting some uncharacteristic behaviors, particularly in the last chapter with punching Malfoy, getting up and storming out of Divination… so I get the sense that Ron thinks that Hermione is just starting to lose it, and as a result, has double-booked herself for exams. And he’s too scared to dig into it with her too. That’s the thing; she kind of snaps at him. [laughs]
Julian: And I love the way that they phrase the question, like, “It’s no use asking you this, right? We shouldn’t even ask.” And she’s like, “You shouldn’t.”
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: “Just let me be Hermione.”
Eric: Yeah, the secret works for the whole year because of Hermione’s personality, I think.
Julian: Oh, yeah.
Eric: She totally is not one to divulge, but she’ll be stressed out, and then they ask… it just has really worked, funnily enough. I mean, on day one, September 1, you could see them going, “No, no, let’s unpack your schedule. What’s going on here?” But they don’t, and then it just builds and builds and builds till, “Hermione, isn’t it kind of weird…? Are you sure…?” And she’s like, “No.” And then throughout the end of the year… and then finally, Ron… I think this is the chapter where Ron would ask, because I think by the end of the day, we’re going to see some time travel shenanigans. So it’s like, today’s the day they would ask. But because Ron and Hermione have just had this massive fight, he doesn’t pursue it. He backs off. So it’s funny how the issue of Hermione being in two – or in some cases, three – places at once has just eluded explanation.
Julian: And I feel like it fits her so well in terms of the stress and the anxiety that she’s exhibiting. It’s probably… I feel like in their minds, they’re like, “If anyone could pull this off some way, somehow, it’s her, and so why even ask about it? Because if anyone’s doing it, it’s Hermione.”
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: I think Hermione really would overload herself with more coursework. I mean, I’m glad that in the future years… she kind of learns her lesson in this book, because we don’t necessarily see her… I mean, she doesn’t do it again with the Time-Turner, but also, I think in the future she treats herself a little better.
Andrew: So we’ll return to the exams in the second half of today’s episode, because another big focus here is Buckbeak’s hearing and the “execution.” Buckbeak’s hearing is set, and the executioner will be present at the hearing, so he’s ready to throw down the axe the moment it’s official.
Eric: Could go either way. Could go either way. We don’t know.
Andrew: Sure, sure. But the trio is onto what’s going on here, too, or at least Harry is, and implies that the committee’s mind is already made up about Buckbeak’s fate. And Harry does come face-to-face with Fudge on the school grounds prior to the execution and the hearing, because he’s going to be the witness to Buckbeak’s execution. Should Harry have said something to him? He’s just a kid; Fudge is the Minister. It’s ultimately not going to change anything, I don’t think. But I really would have liked to have seen Harry try and say something here. Mr. Courageous could have said something. And Ron wants to say something, too, but Hermione stops him since Arthur works at the Ministry. I’m actually not so sure. Again, Ron is a child; I’m not so sure that this was worth stopping Ron for. I think Hermione actually could have let Ron do it. Is Fudge really going to fire or punish Arthur because his son said something?
[Laura sighs]
Eric: It really depends on what his son said.
Julian: That’s the thing.
Eric: [laughs] Hermione wasn’t going to take the chance. She’s like, “Ron, no.” And she points out, “This man is your dad’s boss.” Yeah, I really wouldn’t take the chance. And then the other thing that’s happening, though, here is, too, Harry and Fudge are on speaking terms. Hermione and Ron have never spoken to him at all, whereas Fudge has shared private rooms with Harry, and this whole Sirius Black situation has really brought the two of them into this false sense of familiarity. So it’s funny because they’re described, Ron and Hermione are, as like hangers-on, kind of awkwardly bobbing back a little bit. So it would have been out of turn for Ron to just come up and be like, “This is the wrong thing. What are you guys doing with Lucius Malfoy?” Whatever he were to say really would be alarming and strange and not a positive.
Julian: And I feel like the Weasleys are hanging on by a thread as it is, in terms of a number of different things. And we find out later, right, that Fudge already doesn’t view Arthur as particularly kind, because of his ideology about Muggles? And so in this moment it feels less tenuous, but what we know is that it’s a bit more tenuous, and I think Ron doesn’t have the best filter, and in this particular moment he’s not his best self because he’s upset that he did all this work and potentially for naught, and so I think Hermione might have saved some things, because it’s not clear what he would have said.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yeah, I completely agree with that, Julian. I think we can look at the fact that Arthur has already been in hot water at the Ministry with the car, the enchanted car coming to light in Chamber of Secrets; his daughter, although it wasn’t her fault, being possessed and causing all of the drama in Chamber of Secrets, so he’s already, I think, in some hot water early on in the series. On top of the fact that this Minister and the current climate of politics in the wizarding world does not value the work that Arthur does makes things tenuous for him at best. And to Julian’s point, it only gets worse. This is a really great connecting the threads moment to Order of the Phoenix, where Harry is starting to become that Undesirable Number One persona that the Ministry develops for him. And whereas Fudge might not have known what to say in this book had Harry challenged him, the coin turns very quickly. It’s a very quick coin flip. As soon as Harry is not serving the Ministry narrative, he’s no longer valuable. So it just goes to show how concerned with optics Fudge is, so I think they do have to kind of play it careful in this moment.
Andrew: Yeah. I was only thinking of it, I guess, from the perspective of you can’t blame Arthur for what his son does when they’re not with… it might be one thing if Arthur is standing right next to him or something, but you could just blame Ron’s lecture on Ron just getting emotional in the moment and freaking out. But these are very good points.
Eric: Yeah, well, kids at that age, though, often what they’re saying is what they get from their parents…
Andrew: Fair.
Eric: … so I think just at that age, really young, it’s like, “What’s your political world views?” Whatever your parents’ are, whatever you hear at home, and then you’re normalized to it so you bring it up casually, yeah. I mean, Ron’s heart is in 100% the right place. And to your point, he did do all that work! He really took over from Hermione on this whole appeal. And that’s something we can all relate to, is being very upset after doing all this work, and they’ve already brought the executioner to the appeal? [laughs]
Andrew: Yikes. So later Hagrid says that Dumbledore tried to convince Fudge that Buckbeak is all right, but they’re scared of Lucius, so of course that’s not going to change anything. And Hagrid says, “Good man, Dumbledore.”
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: And the only reason I call out this line is I feel like a lot of people cite it from time to time. “Good man, Dumbledore.” That’s… sorry, I just got a little emotional seeing that line in print. Julian, I see you shaking your head, though. You’re a Dumbledore critic, aren’t you?
Julian: I absolutely am. 100%.
Eric: Good man, Julian. Good man.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: This feels like the bare minimum. I’m sorry. You’re Dumbledore! You are Dumbledore. They wanted you to be the Minister of Magic, and to the point where Fudge is coming to you and asking you for advice as to how to do his job, and you mean to tell me that you couldn’t do more than just be like, “Well, he’s not bad”? You went and stood before the Wizengamot to defend Harry Potter when he was persona non grata, and actually were successful. It seems to me that you probably could have done just a bit more to make sure that this hippogriff didn’t die. That’s all I’m saying.
Eric: The thing that cracks me up is what makes Hagrid say, “Good man, Dumbledore.” It’s that after failing to persuade the Ministry… which, great point there, Julian. I don’t know. Was he really trying? How much did he care?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: After failing to persuade the Ministry, he’s like, “Oh, I’ll come be with you, Hagrid, when it happens.”
Julian: Wow.
Eric: Dumbledore is getting off his cushy seat in his tower that’s all to his self, with all the little trinkets; he’s going to come down and sit with Hagrid while they kill his beloved creature. What a great man Dumbledore is. Is this really worthy? This is the bare minimum. Is this worthy of Hagrid’s undying, lifelong love and affection for Dumbledore? Dumbledore has done two nice things for Hagrid his entire life. One, letting him come on as groundskeeper. Two, deciding to be with the pet that never should have been sentenced to be executed when they’re going to chop his head off.
Laura: Yeah, and it adds an extra layer to all of this when you think about the fact that Dumbledore set Hagrid up for failure in giving him this post of Care of Magical Creatures, but doing nothing to make sure that he was prepared to actually teach the course. We talked about this earlier on in this book, how there’s seemingly no standards. There’s sort of no requirements at Hogwarts about what subject matter is going to be appropriate for which age groups, and that’s exactly why Hagrid ended up showing Buckbeak and the hippogriffs to third years in the first place, because he didn’t have a mentor or somebody to step in and say, “Hey, this is not going to go very well. Maybe stick with the fifth years for that, and you can introduce your third years to Flobberworms.” His year would have gone so much better if Dumbledore had mentored him instead of just throwing him in the deep end of being a teacher and saying, “Well, I’ve given you this. This is sort of part of my way of making everything that’s happened to you over the last 50 years up to you by giving you this post, and now you’ve got to figure out how to make it work.”
Julian: “Best of luck.”
[Andrew laughs]
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Eric: “And by the way, sorry about that whole sending you back to Azkaban thing. I’m sure it’ll haunt you forever.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: “Also, sorry for not letting you back into Hogwarts when we realized that you actually were innocent…”
Laura: I know!
Julian: “… and so now all of a sudden, you just have a third year education and nothing more. But don’t worry about it; I’m going to give you this job.” It’s madness.
Andrew: [sighs] So just to catch Julian up a little bit, I have to be the Dumbledore apologist on this show, because everybody else is so darn critical. I try to offer some balance. We’ve gotten some emails from people; people have thanked me for my service…
[Julian and Laura laugh]
Andrew: … but it’s no use. It’s no use. But I’m trying.
Eric: It’s weird; I’m going through the inbox. I’m not seeing any of these “Thank you” emails.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: I’m scrolling hard right now.
Andrew: I’m not saying they come in fast and furious, but I did get a text one time.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: No, balance is good. I know we went really hard in Chamber of “Where is Dumbledore?” because these attacks were happening on the students, and it was really escalating, and so I thought Dumbledore was largely absent Book 2, but we’re most of the way through Prisoner of Azkaban, and apart from showing up and having exactly the right idea about how to fix the timeline and all this later in the… soon, he mostly has spent this year very absent as well, just kind of reacting, as opposed to being proactive about the Sirius Black situation. There’s more there that he possibly could be doing. So it’s interesting; I never would have thought as a kid that Dumbledore was absent at all or taking a backseat. It’s just kind of, “Oh, what’s he up to?” But now that time is passing and we’re reading this, yeah, I think at the pace we are, I’ve realized he could really be doing more. This is the bare minimum.
Julian: Am I allowed to ask a quick question of you all? Because I’ve been thinking about this and I’m like, “Okay, so to what extent do we think that Dumbledore some way is able to evade the time loop?” Because some of this feels like… I wonder… and I think this is because I’m like, “Are you coming down for this thing with Buckbeak?” Because we know that when they go back, he’s the distraction while they free Buckbeak, and it seems like a little bit too on the nose for him to then be like, “All right, Hermione, go back in time,” and he just happens to be there? Anyways, it’s just a thought that occurred to me, because I was like, “Well, are you going down because somehow in your weird omniscience, you’ve been able to subvert this thing, and you know what your role has to be in order to facilitate Buckbeak’s liberation?”
Eric: That makes Hagrid’s love of Dumbledore even funnier, because Dumbledore is not going down to support him emotionally at all; he’s just going to preserve the timeline or affect the change.
Julian: Which feels very on brand for Dumbledore, to just be like, “Greater good. We have to do this thing, and so I will just facilitate…” anyways, that just occurred to me as I was reading.
Eric: Great man, Dumbledore.
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: It is so interesting how Dumbledore really continues to espouse this worldview of pursuing the greater good, even though that is exactly the worldview that ended up with his entanglement with Grindelwald and his sister dying. He’s still walking down the same path again here, and whether it’s to the detriment of some of the players on the chessboard doesn’t really seem to matter. It’s more about the greater arc of the story, it seems.
Julian: For sure.
Laura: And there are times where I think we can argue in Dumbledore’s defense that he is doing the right thing overall, but it’s a lot of gray area. It’s like, yes, overall, was this the right thing? Maybe, but it’s also messed up.
Julian: Yeah, those two things can be true.
Andrew: You know, Hannah Montana sang this song, “Nobody’s Perfect,” and y’all need to listen to it after the episode.
[Julian and Laura laugh]
Andrew: And a couple people in our Discord listening live right now are saying… Justin said, “I am also a Dumbledore apologist. Look for my email, Eric!”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: And Daphne said, “Me too. Thank you, Andrew.” Okay? So I’m doing some sort of service here. [laughs]
Julian: All right.
Laura: It’s a public service.
Andrew: Not as good as you three are at criticizing Dumbledore, but he is, just to quote Justin here, “trying to save the MF wizarding world.”
Eric: He does save my favorite character’s life.
Andrew: At the end of the day, he gets the job done.
Julian: At what cost, though? At what cost?
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: That’s war! That’s war!
[Julian laughs]
Laura: I do just want to call out that Kyle in our Discord is pointing out that you have a great point, Julian, about all of this. Dumbledore’s interactions with the time loop does just work out a little too perfectly, so it does imply that he has a higher level of awareness of what’s going on. And I don’t know if that’s because he just happened to maybe see future time loop Harry and Hermione and put the pieces together very quickly; that’s on brand for Dumbledore, that he would very quickly be able to make that connection.
Julian: True.
Eric: His tea leaves today were a Time-Turner.
[Julian and Laura laugh]
Eric: And he’s like, “Oh, there are going to be shenanigans.”
Laura: But we never get that answer.
Eric: No, we don’t. We don’t get that answer, because if he is interfering actively with Buckbeak’s execution, he must already know somebody’s going to be flying away on him, and he doesn’t yet, as far as we know, believe or know at all that Sirius Black is innocent. That comes only later after Dumbledore speaks with him while he’s imprisoned at Hogwarts; apparently that’s the scene where he gets convinced. So it doesn’t make sense that he’s running interference now.
Andrew: So later in the chapter Buckbeak is formally sentenced, and the trio wants to be there for it, but with it happening at sunset, they wouldn’t be allowed out onto the grounds, so Hermione decides to retrieve the Invisibility Cloak from under the One-Eyed Witch statue since it’s too risky for Harry to do so after the run-in with Snape. And this excites Ron, the idea of Hermione going to take the cloak when it’s a pretty dangerous situation. And Ron says, “Hermione, I don’t know what’s gotten into you lately! First you hit Malfoy, then you walk out on Professor Trelawney -“ and then it says, “Hermione looked rather flattered.” So are these some sparks flying? Is Hermione just happy to see somebody recognizing she’s a bit of a baddie? What do we think’s going on? I think there’s some sparks flying already, a little hint.
Laura: Yeah, I think so. I also think that this moment, particularly Hermione going to get the Invisibility Cloak, I think it’s very characteristic of her, actually. Hermione is a character for whom injustice trumps the rules. We see this even pretty early on in the series when we think about, for example, her hitting Neville with that Petrificus Totalus when they’re going to save the Sorcerer’s Stone, or the Philosopher’s Stone, depending on your edition. She knows, is that the right thing to do? Not necessarily, but there are bigger fish to fry. We see this from Hermione later on in the series, too, when it comes to things like SPEW and when it comes to the formation of Dumbledore’s Army. I actually think this is another really great connecting the threads moment to Order of the Phoenix, where she advocates for the forming of the DA. We have to remember she’s the one who tells Harry, “You should teach us, because we’re not being taught.” And she does that in response to Umbridge and the Ministry interfering at Hogwarts, which is what’s also happening here in Prisoner of Azkaban. On a smaller scale, albeit, but still happening. It’s part one of Hermione being a baddie.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: She’s got a streak of vigilante in her, I think, sometimes, and I think it jumps… I can’t remember the moment in Sorcerer’s/Philosopher’s Stone, but there’s a moment where she literally says, “They’re not going to kick me out anytime soon, because no one’s ever scored as high as I have on this exam.”
Eric: Oh, man.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: So she is very aware of the power she holds in terms of how good she is. But I also think that she is not averse to breaking the rules, not only when she thinks that justice isn’t being served, but it’s her particular brand of justice. Because when she puts Rita Skeeter in that jar, or what she does to Marietta Edgecombe, she creates a sense in her mind of “This is the way that things have to be.” And so I think that this is very on brand for her, because she has this streak of vigilantism in her sometimes that jumps out, and I feel like it always takes particularly Ron by surprise, because it feels off brand, but it really is just kind of the way that she constructs what justice looks like for her and how she then takes it into her own hands.
Eric: I think Ron’s surprise about it all speaks to sparks flying, because he has a romanticized version of Hermione in his mind. She’s softer to him, I think, or to his mind. But yeah, it’s just the Gryffindor in her fighting to get out.
Andrew: Yeah. What House are you, Julian?
Julian: Slytherin.
Andrew: Oh my gosh! Same.
Laura: Heck yeah.
Eric: You’re the nicest Slytherin we ever met. Sorry, Andrew.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Okay, fine. I’m leaving.
Eric: No, no, no. There are good Slytherins.
Laura: We have a little joke on this panel that we very rarely have Gryffindors on, because nobody on the show panel is a Gryffindor, so we’re always very surprised when we get a guest who is. [laughs]
Julian: I think in my classes, I very rarely have Gryffindors. I think this last semester I had probably the most I’ve ever had, but normally, yeah, they’re not very well represented.
Andrew: I was a Gryffindor and then I went through a breakup and I converted to Slytherin.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: I just was like, “New life, new me.”
Julian: Yeah, well, sometimes it happens. They’re two sides of the same coin, honestly.
Laura: Yes.
Andrew: [laughs] So we’ll get to the axe falling in a little while, since it ties into Pettigrew. Let’s discuss Professor Trelawney’s exam. So she sees the students one by one, and asks them to gaze into a crystal ball and report what they see. Parvati’s exam was a success. “Trelawney says I’ve got all the makings of a true Seer. I saw loads of stuff.” Now, I wonder, did Trelawney go easy on her since Parvati has been…? It’s been established at this point she fawns over Trelawney, so is Trelawney going easy on her? What is going on here? Is Parvati actually seeing the future? Is she going to be a Seer one day? Or did she make it all up and put on a really convincing performance to impress Trelawney? [laughs]
Eric: I don’t know, man. [laughs] It just seems like maybe there’s something going… here’s the question: Would Trelawney recognize a Seer if one was right in front of her? Which I think is really… seeing Harry play the game and do this, you just have to know a little bit about gossip at Hogwarts, I think, and it gets you by, because Harry wins over Trelawney mostly. And Parvati would be one of the people that’s really the most into it, and would have an intuition, not necessarily innately, but through practice. If anybody has picked up anything from these classes that would allow them to actually do what they’re studying, it’s Parvati or Lavender.
Laura: Julian, I’m curious for your perspective on this as a professor.
Julian: Sure. I think this exam is awful.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: Partially because… and I was thinking about it as I was reading; I said it’s so subjective. There’s no objective way to determine who’s doing well and who’s not doing well, which I think speaks to this idea of being able to grant favoritism to Parvati in ways that you don’t necessarily have to do for other students. Because ostensibly, if you’re looking into the crystal ball, Professor Trelawney can’t see what Parvati sees, so she can’t confirm or deny anything, and so because of the lack of objectivity in terms of how you can assess them, yeah, it’s like, if I like you or I believe you like me, then my ability to grade you is based off of that alone, or if you are giving me some warped sense of reality that I want to hear, which is what Harry does, then I can, again, just say that’s exactly what you’re predicting. Because there’s nothing about the exam that allows her to compare across students, there’s no way to be right or wrong. It is just whatever she wants it to be.
Eric: It’s whether she likes you or not.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, Trelawney is a grifter, really. She’s a two-trick pony. She’s right in a couple of big ways a couple of times, but outside of that, we don’t really see that level of validity in her other predictions. So I think that goes straight to what Julian is saying about her just leaning into favoritism, because there’s no way, again, to prove or disprove what people are saying on this exam.
Eric: Let’s extend the kindness we give to Hagrid to Trelawney here.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Trelawney is a product of what Dumbledore has made her. The only reason she’s in this position at all is because Dumbledore wants her at Hogwarts, to protect her for the one prophecy that she did make. Because she doesn’t really overtly have the skill that she’s been forced to teach, she really had very little choice in becoming the kind of teacher that she is. She ultimately is more about instructing than doing, but because she can’t do… well, those who can’t do teach.
Julian: Wow.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Yikes.
Eric: Trelawney really is just like, “Hey, this is how…” That’s a saying; that’s a common expression.
[Julian laughs]
Eric: But what you don’t have to do is what Trelawney leans into, which is… because she still chooses to pretend that she really can do the things that she’s teaching, she then gets into the theatrics that – we’ve talked all this book – damages Harry’s psyche, or all the rest of the students’ too, to keep hearing that somebody in your class is doomed, and she still goes on about this, and it’s like, she didn’t have to make that choice. But Dumbledore put her here and subjected all the students to her, throughout years now, and I think that all we’re seeing is this late stage result of Trelawney, a clear fraud on most days, really just being given this opportunity that she never qualified for.
Julian: It’s also fascinating because I don’t know how you teach Divination. It seems like something that’s inherent, and when we think of the names that J.K. Rowling puts in for Sybill and her great-grandmother Cassandra, right, those are people who were, in Greek mythology, blessed by Apollo, and so it’s not a taught skill. It’s something you either have or you don’t. And so the idea of this as a course, broadly construed, feels so off because it’s like, you actually can’t teach this. It seems like there are people who just have it or you don’t, and so it feels like they’re setting up students for failure regardless of who the teacher is, because it’s just… why are you teaching something that you either have the ability to do, or you don’t? It seems weird.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: Hey, I compare this to what Tonks can do, Metamorphmagus, right? Some are born a Metamorphmagus, I think she says, and I think she’s one of them. Teddy definitely is. But you can learn to do it; it just takes a lot of time and expertise as a student to learn how to do it. So I think of that as like the Seers; there are people who have the true gift, but I think there is also a slightly lesser version of Divination where you can work a crystal ball or Tarot or tap into the energies and that kind of thing. And so the problem is Trelawney is pretending that everyone can do the first part, but it’s really only the second part. But that’s kind of the difference here, is she’s failing to distinguish because she can only… if she were good, could do the second part on command.
Laura: Yeah, and she’s not doing a great job of teaching the theoretical side of this. I mean, when it comes to the applied side of Divination, I’m with Julian; I think there’s going to be a ceiling to what people are going to be able to do most of the time. But this subject could be really useful if given a lot of theoretical foundations, so that the students at least could understand and appreciate the art of Divination, because as we established in last week’s episode, it’s just as important as all of the other subjects they’re learning; it’s just Trelawney is not a good teacher. And to that point, I actually had a question for y’all, and I’m jumping a little bit ahead here, but it feels relevant to the conversation we’re having: Do we ever get any other examples of Seers, whether in Harry Potter or in extended lore, where we learn the frequency of the predictions they make? Because something that occurs to me about Trelawney is she has these two predictions that she makes that end up being very right, and then there’s really nothing else that she does. I mean, there’s some things that are maybe debatable, but they’re definitely smaller examples. Is it just possible that maybe a Seer is only going to make a handful of big predictions over the course of their life? And if that’s the case, is Trelawney leaning into this because she feels the pressure to perform as a Seer all the time, when maybe that’s not even the correct expectation? Maybe the expectation is the Seer is only going to do this four or five times over the course of her life. I don’t know if we’ve seen any other examples.
Andrew: Yeah, to answer your direct question… right. I don’t know, but I guess I would counter with what’s the typical accuracy rate of a Seer? Because Trelawney is just throwing out whatever pops into her brain, whereas a better Seer might only make these predictions when they have something truly authentic to say. So I get the impression Trelawney is somebody who, like you’re saying, Laura, just looking to impress, wants to throw out whatever pops into her brain, just to show off that she has this ability. She’s not predicting responsibly. You don’t need to show off, just… less is more sometimes.
Eric: I’m just imagining an alcohol commercial. “Predict responsibly.”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Exactly, yeah.
Eric: But here’s the other question: Do all other Seers go into a trance when they do a real prophecy? Because there’s this great irony, that Trelawney doesn’t ever know when… she doesn’t know that she did the first prophecy, and she certainly doesn’t know this one. Dumbledore never tells her.
Andrew: And that’s why she’s looking to do these other predictions that she can remember, so she can convince herself she’s the real deal?
Eric: Yeah, because if no other Seer does it while conscious either, then no one would ever know that they were Seers unless somebody told them. [laughs] But also, you can’t expect… you can’t force a prophecy. I don’t know. The whole size of the Department of Prophecy in the Department of Mysteries tells me there’s more of these people, and they do them substantially more often than we see Trelawney do. But there’s a lot of questions as far as what her expectations are in this role, why she is the way she is. I go back to Dumbledore.
Julian: I think that because… apparently her great-great-grandmother was a big to-do, and I feel like a lot of what she’s doing is playing… she’s cosplaying her great-great-grandmother, and thinking, “This is what she used to do, and so this is the kind of air of mystique that I’m going to have.” And I think it’s interesting, because really, what she does is she just is doing deductive reasoning. She’s like, “Oh, you saw a hippogriff? Well, the people are here, so clearly it’s going to die.”
[Laura laughs]
Julian: So she just kind of… I mean, if I’m going to give her any credit, I’ll give her credit about how she observes things very well. She knows about Neville, she knows he’s a klutz, so at the beginning of class, she can say, “Don’t break that,” because… and then she makes him nervous, and then he does it, right? And so it feels like, “Oh, she’s really done a thing,” but really she’s just like, “No, I know this person’s personality type.” And I think that part of her con is how good at studying human behavior, and she just is able to call it out. But I think the air that she puts about herself, I would credit it probably to the other person in her family who was apparently legit, and everyone kind of knew, and that she’s just adopted this kind of air about herself to pass it off, and then she just uses her really good observation skills as a way to make people think things that are true, which I think… there are some people on the Internet now who do the very same thing, and I think she’s very good at doing that.
Laura: Yeah, she’s definitely the type of person who would record a TikTok that would come up in my algorithm saying, “I manifested that this video was going to turn up in the algorithms of people who needed it.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Julian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and then, “Oh, if you are watching this right now, you need to listen to what I’m saying.” That is absolutely Trelawney.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I just had a weird thought, which is last year we dealt with Lockhart, who is this big old fraud, and this year we deal with Trelawney. Next year we deal with Moody. It’s this theme of fraud teachers.
Julian: Frauds on frauds…
Eric: Frauds on frauds.
Andrew: Well, speaking of being fraudulent, we can just get through Ron and Harry’s performances real quick. Ron didn’t do well. He couldn’t see a thing, he says, so he made some stuff up, and he thinks Trelawney was not convinced. And then Harry isn’t having luck with gazing into the ball either, so he makes up that he sees Buckbeak surviving the execution and flying away – not wrong – and then Trelawney calls the prediction a little disappointing, [laughs] because it’s not the outcome she wanted for Buckbeak or expected, I guess?
Julian: Yeah, it’s the same thing, though, right? I think this tells us a bit more about how Trelawney actually operates, because what Harry does is, again, he uses something that is real and true in the moment, and then he just extrapolates out what he believes is going to happen, with a tinge of what he wants to happen, and then that’s his prediction. And I think the fact that she was on board until he’s like, “No, he’s flying away,” and she’s like, “Well, that’s clearly false,” tells us everything we need to know about how it is that she derives her own predictions. Because if he had said he dies, she would have said, “Oh, you have the gift,” and it’s like, that’s because that’s what you do.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Oh, that’s a great point, yeah.
Laura: I really wish we could have known what Ron made up, because these are the kinds of moments from Ron that tend to be unintentionally prophetic. This is just one of those pieces of lore that is lost to time. We don’t get to know.
Andrew: We’ll never know.
Eric: Yeah. I question if Harry would have done as well to impress Trelawney if she knew that he and Hagrid were close friends, because this is clearly one of those topics that Trelawney prides herself on knowing is going on in the school gossip, and doesn’t assume any students, even the ones involved in the hippogriff incident, would be privy that the execution is happening today, that there’s a hippogriff involved. I think that she’s just so privileged in thinking she’s the only one, that when Harry brings up, “Oh, a Hippogriff…” “Oh, you remember that man, the games keeper at this school? Well, you know, his hippogriff is on trial today.” And it’s like, Harry knows this intimately, but she doesn’t have that connection, so he can just BS it. And you’re exactly right; the second she turns and is like, “Well, that didn’t happen,” is when it divorces with what her established reality is.
Laura: I want to know what her interpretation of Harry’s exam was after the events of this book. Does she sort of roll back her previous statement that Harry’s prediction was a bit disappointing, and start telling other teachers, “Oh yes, he predicted this, and having the eye myself, I knew that was going to happen”? [laughs]
Andrew: She strikes me as the type of person who would be frustrated that she was wrong in her assessment of Harry’s prediction, and thus is just not thinking about it at all. Like, “No, there’s no way he was actually gifted.”
Julian: Yeah, I think she’d steal it.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: I think she would be like, “I had a prediction in the tower that Buckbeak would fly away, and Harry Potter just happened to be there. But really it was me.”
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Eric: Maybe all of these exams are Trelawney’s way, at the end of the year, of scooping up real prophecies that she can then go back to later.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: I love that.
Eric: She’s trained her students to be better than her, and then she just spouts out these… whatever she heard this time, if still relevant at the beginning of next year, will be the first prediction she makes next year to a class.
Andrew: Yeah, sounds about right.
Eric: She’s harvesting prophecies.
Julian: Yeah, this is how she gets to know who they are as people, so then she can leverage it later on and be like, “Oh, yeah.”
Andrew: Ahh.
Julian: That’s how she does it. This is her character study.
Eric: Amazing.
Andrew: Yeah, because as we established a few minutes ago, this exam is kind of useless for the students if they’re not gifted with the Inner Eye. Let’s get to the prediction itself. So as Harry is walking out of the exam – which is pretty important; we’ll circle back to that in a moment – Trelawney goes rigid and drops a prediction in a harsh voice quite unlike her own. I’m going to do this impression because I’ve done it before, so Julian, I apologize for what you’re about to hear.
Julian: I’m excited.
Andrew: [imitating Trelawney] “It will happen tonight. The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these 12 years. Tonight, before midnight… the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master.” [coughs] This hurts my voice.
Eric: Have some water.
Andrew: [laughs] “The Dark Lord will rise with his servant’s aid, greater and more terrible than ever before. Tonight… before midnight… the servant… will set out… to rejoin… his master…”
Laura: Oof.
[Julian laughs]
Andrew: So she enters this trance, snaps back into reality, apologizes to Harry, and she says, “The heat of the day, you know… I drifted off for a moment…” and she doesn’t know she’s just made this prediction. And Harry says, “Hey, this just happened,” and she says she doesn’t believe that she would make the prediction that Harry is describing. [laughs]
Eric: She tells him, “You must have dozed off too!” [laughs] Can the same time both people in the room drift off? Because she doesn’t believe it’s possible. Unbelievable.
Andrew: [laughs] Why does Trelawney think she couldn’t predict such a thing?
Eric: Because of Dumbledore! Because of Dumbledore!
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: He literally did not tell her the first time this happened; he thought it was safer that she doesn’t know, and so she never… here’s the thing: A lot of what Trelawney does, including the theatrics, comes from a place of inner desperation and imposter… or low self-esteem. She doesn’t believe that she’s authentic, which she would do if Dumbledore had told her that. So this whole thing, again, comes back to Dumbledore, because she can’t believe that she would ever be the person to do this.
Julian: I also think that there’s a wizarding world… there’s such a massive fear of the possibility that Voldemort will come back, and it’s so, I think… one of the things that a lot of people comment in my videos is that the whole wizarding world at this point in time is so traumatized by Voldemort that no one talks about it, and I think that part of her not wanting it to be something she predicted is also born out of just the sheer fear of, “If I said that, what does this mean for all of us? What does it mean for me?” I think that there’s a kind of emotional… she’s trying… she doesn’t want to acknowledge the possibility of that happening and that being true. It’s very much like Fudge in Order of the Phoenix, right? Where he just doesn’t want to believe it, and I think that’s something that everyone in the wizarding world has, where it’s just this, “Let’s just not acknowledge the fact that this is a possibility,” and I think that that’s part of her motivation.
Eric: Right. That’s a great point, because Trelawney says to Harry, “The Dark Lord? Oh, silly me, that’s completely out of there.”
Julian: Right.
Eric: You know, Voldemort coming back is really like the COVID-19 of the Harry Potter books.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Everyone wants to believe it’s over; they got comfortable believing that it’s gone forever, that it’s not really still out there, and that actually ends up facilitating the return in huge, key ways. The next book mostly… Order of the Phoenix is definitely there, but Goblet especially – like Bertha Jorkins’s disappearance – we just see everybody completely just discredit the very real signs of the threat. So yeah, starts here with Trelawney, I think.
Laura: Yeah. It is so interesting to think about the difference with which wizards approach Divination to how centaurs approach Divination. It very much feels like, to Julian’s point, that there’s this element of belief that they have control over the direction of the universe. As long as they don’t acknowledge it, as long as they don’t believe it, they can control what does and doesn’t happen. Whereas the centaurs are like, “We’re taking a 30,000 foot scope of the universe and the cosmic arc of everything, and we can’t control it, so we don’t really… we’re not prescribing a moral value to what’s happening; this is just what’s happening.”
Julian: Yeah, and they… I mean, because the centaurs are all about not actively engaging, trying to change anything, right? Like, “We won’t tell you what we know.” And I think that I really love this idea of… because it’s also very on brand for the wizarding world, of like, “Well, if magic is the way that we can just control everything, then why would the future be any different?” And we literally see them do that with the Time-Turners, right? It’s literally the exact thing that they ultimately do, which is leverage their power and magic as a way to affect what happens. And so it’s fascinating, the way that they then view the future, because that’s because they’re like, “Oh, well, we can just change it if we don’t like it.”
Laura: Yeah. Oh, that’s such a great connection to the Time-Turners.
Andrew: So I mentioned that Trelawney makes this prediction as Harry is walking out of the exam, and what’s so interesting is that when Trelawney made her prediction in front of Dumbledore all those years ago, he was walking out of the bar after interviewing Trelawney, and Dumbledore was not impressed. And I find it interesting that in both these occasions, Harry, Dumbledore both walking away, and that’s when Trelawney kicks in, if you will, and I had kind of a crackpot theory about this, like she’s subconsciously looking to impress them while she still can, so this triggers something in her, triggers an accurate prediction. In the case of Dumbledore, Trelawney wanted the job, and then in the case of Harry, she just wanted Harry to believe she’s the real deal. Is that what’s going on?
Eric: This is a brilliant connection. This is a great, wonderful comparison and connection between the two.
Andrew: Thanks. [laughs]
Eric: I think it does come… maybe that’s what triggers the prophecy, is this place of insecurity. If Trelawney spent more of her conscious time being actually in tune with the forces, or listening to the forces… and I think the power is insecurity-activated, if we go there. So the fact that she doesn’t make predictions more often is because she is over-trying, is not open… her Inner Eye is the farthest thing from open, unless she’s in this moment of deep vulnerability, which she was when she needed the job those many years ago, and she is now with Harry.
Laura: It’s interesting, too, because she really secludes herself from other people. We see that she never leaves her tower, really, and this might be why we don’t see more of this. She’s uncomfortable being around other people and being in this performative space all the time. Perhaps if she was exposed to people more frequently, we might see this insecurity trigger activate more and see more truthful predictions coming from her.
Andrew and Julian: Yeah.
Julian: Because in mythology, right, Seers are just empty vessels for whatever higher power divinity to flow through, and so you imagine that one’s ego has to be out of the way in order to empty the vessel. And so in these moments of insecurity where she’s kind of like, “Oh, I actually am not good at this,” you can imagine that that would be the moment where in mythology, that’s when someone would come and tap in and say, “Here’s a prophecy,” because you kind of have to be this empty vessel and get out of your own way, and you could imagine insecurity being a trigger for those type of things.
Eric: I will say, the one thing that I do like about the prophecy is if you’re not on the “Sirius Black is good” train, if you’re not clued into that at this point – which I was not when I first read it – this prophecy still reads like Sirius could be the one that’s escaping, especially because of the phrase is like, “imprisoned after 12 years.” Who do we know that’s…? It’s literally the Prisoner of Azkaban is the name of the book. So going on, it’s only when you read it back that you realize it could still mean both of them; it could mean Peter Pettigrew or Sirius Black, and I just like the versatility and flexibility. It’s a requirement of the writing, but it’s actually written in a way where if you think it’s Sirius, it’ll be Sirius. If you think it’s Peter, it’ll be Peter.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, speaking of Peter, the chapter ends with Hermione discovering Scabbers hiding in Hagrid’s milk jug, and Ron pockets him, but Scabbers is going crazy trying to get out. And at the same time, the trio scrambles back up to the castle because Hermione doesn’t want to witness Buckbeak being executed. An axe falls in the background; as the trio is escaping the hut, Harry says he feels strangely unreal, and even more so when he saw Buckbeak a few yards away. So this kind of reminded me of having an out-of-body experience because of an imminent death, or you get shocking news that you can’t process, and your brain just enters this other state where your whole world has suddenly changed. Is this what’s going on here? And I know, I think, Eric, you had, or somebody had a really… yeah, Eric, you had a really good point about maybe what’s actually going on, if not this.
Eric: There’s a very fun theory, but I think what you’re saying is the most likely and the most realistic: Harry is just witnessing firsthand injustice. You hear about it in the hypothetical. There’s definitely been injustices that he’s been privy to, Dobby and some other things throughout the years, but this is the first time where he and his friends have been actively involved. They were there when the incident occurred with Draco, they have had nothing but piss-ant Draco to deal with all year, and yet, the deck is stacked so against Hagrid, their dear friend, and Buckbeak, that they literally have an axe come down and they assume that Buckbeak has been beheaded. This would take me out of it, too. You just can’t believe that, after all the work, how unfair it is. And there’s always a point in growing up where something like this happens, and you’re just like, “The world is not a nice, shiny place, really, all the time.” And I think that’s what’s happening, is Harry is just experiencing that. We watch him experience it in real time.
Julian: Yeah, I think he’s disassociating. I think he’s just completely… I feel like his brain is trying to protect itself, not only from just the reality of how unjust the world can be, but also just the brutality of what’s going to happen to Buckbeak. And I feel like his brain is like, “Yeah, you needed… we’re going to take a step back, literally, in order to protect you from this moment,” which I think also happens in a lot of times, where sometimes you just feel like, “I’m outside of myself because this is too much and I can’t necessarily handle it.” And I feel like he’s just having a very disassociative moment where his brain is literally trying to protect him from the reality of what’s happening.
Eric: So here’s an alternate theory that I will propose now: Harry is feeling slightly unreal here, or strangely unreal, and I’m wondering if it’s because the universe currently now has two of Harry in here. This is around the time of day that Harry becomes two Harrys, that the time loop starts. The time loop starts a bit before the axe comes down on Beaky. So what if there is a finite amount of energy to split between two beings, and the fact that Harry feels out of it is his brain protecting him, but is also somebody else is sharing his essence? Somebody else is sharing his energy.
Andrew: I love this.
Julian: Me too.
Laura: I do too.
Andrew: [laughs] Because you would think that once you’re just getting started with time-turning, you could feel a little different, and then you’re…
Eric: It’s jet lag.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Eric: Of a sort. But I wonder if this also, if you extrapolate it out… Hermione has been dealing with this feeling all year. What if the more of you that there are…? So maybe because she’s young and resilient, she’s been able to do this all year, but what if when there are duplicates of you, if you go back in time and there’s more than one of you, what if it is a shared energy thing, and that explains why Hermione has been so exhausted? Maybe that’s been wearing on her too.
Julian: And I think there’s ways to bring this together, right? Because it’s like, also your brain… because they talk about it a lot; what if you saw yourself? You’d think you’d gone mad. And so what if part of the energy sharing is also, I guess, the Harry that we are in this moment is… his brain is like, “Yeah, I can’t even allow you to think this is a possibility, so not only am I protecting you from what’s happening to Buckbeak, but also the reality that there’s another you running around here. We have to keep you grounded in this place.” And so that’s a… if Hermione was navigating all of that, it’s easy to understand why things were falling apart for her, because that’s just a lot to have to navigate at 13.
Laura: Yeah. It’s so interesting, given the conversation we had last week about energy levels and time-turning, and how we connected it to our physics of Harry Potter episode. I mean, the laws of physics would dictate that your energy levels don’t suddenly just double to accommodate two versions of yourself running around, so I think it could absolutely be a mixture of the trauma and the shock of what Harry is seeing in this moment, but also him having to split his energy in half to accommodate the thing that his future self is doing as well.
Eric: Here’s the other reason I like it: You’re supposed to only go back short distances. This is kind of… because the Time-Turner works hourly, you’d have to turn it a real long time, like they do in Cursed Child; it takes up 30 minutes of the show just going back years. But yeah, the whole idea that you’re pretty much limited to a period of time during which you were alive to use the Time-Turner also speaks to this energy being divvied up. Maybe what allows you to transport back in time, the sort of duplication, does draw on your own life force to do it in a really interesting way. Maybe there’s that additional reason for why you really shouldn’t go back long distances in time, because it’ll be more draining somehow.
Julian: And depending on the magic you use when you go back, right? We know that Harry then has to go and conjure up a massive Patronus, and you can imagine…
Laura: Oooh, yeah.
Julian: We know that takes a ton of power out of him. And so when you are living in these dual planes simultaneously, and one version of yourself is doing massive amounts of magic, you can… and we know then it takes up so much magic that the first time around when he conjures the Patronus, or he tries to conjure not even the massive one he does later, right? It takes it all out of him.
Eric and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Oh, man. I love that.
Odds & Ends
Andrew: Eric, you did have one odd and end.
Eric: Yeah, we try and get at least one odd and end here, since it’s the segment. But actually, Meg pointed this one out: At the end, they’re going down… Harry and Hermione and Ron have the Invisibility Cloak to go see Hagrid. It says in the book, “They skulked in an empty chamber off the Entrance Hall, listening, until they were sure it was deserted. They heard a last pair of people hurrying across the hall and a door slamming. Hermione poked her head around the door. ‘Okay,’ she whispered, ‘no one there. Cloak on.'” That last pair of people that are running across the Entrance Hall and closing a door are, in fact, future Hermione and Harry going into the broom cupboard. Will blow your mind. We are now officially in the time loop.
Andrew: Love it.
Laura: Such a good catch. Thank you, Meg.
Andrew: Yeah, I would have missed that. I did miss that. [laughs]
Eric: It’s so easy to miss. It’s designed to be missed. This is why I like… I mean, the power of writing. Wow, right? It’s just really cool.
Andrew: So that’s it for the chapter, and next week, Chapter 17, “Cat, Rat, and Dog.” That’s where Trelawney’s prediction will start coming true.
MVP of the Week
Andrew: Let’s now hand out our MVP of the Week awards.
[MVP of the Week music plays]
Andrew: I’m going to give it to my girl Trelawney, for reminding us why Parvati fangirls over her, and for giving me an opportunity to use my Trelawney voice.
Laura: Yeah, you’re definitely going to have to drink some hot tea with honey after that.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: I get the sense that you’re very hoarse after that.
Andrew: [in a hoarse voice] Thank you.
Laura: [laughs] On a related note, I’m going to give mine to Scabbergrew, as he is affectionately known on this show, for giving Trelawney a real prediction to make for once.
Eric: [laughs] Is that why she hasn’t given any? There’s just not enough things going on?
Laura: Right.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: Okay, I’m going to give mine to Dumbledore. We talked about it earlier; he does the bare minimum and still wins Hagrid’s lifelong support and friendship.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: For some reason.
Eric: Wow. You tricked this man, sir.
[Laura laughs]
Julian: It’s masterful. He’s the real scam artist.
[Andrew laughs]
Julian: I’m going to give mine to Hagrid, because he, in the midst of all of this madness, was still wanting to protect the trio and have them get out, despite how distraught he was. And I think that’s amazing, because I couldn’t have done it.
Laura: Aw, yeah. We love Hagrid.
Eric: Good man, Hagrid.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Well, listeners, if you have any feedback about today’s episode or the chapters ahead, you can send an owl to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send a voice message; just record it using the Voice Memo app on your phone and then email us that file. Or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for our weekly Harry Potter trivia game, Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: Last week’s question: What is the first line of Professor Trelawney’s Pettigrew prophecy? And it’s separated in the book in blocks of text, so it’s a little bit of a trick question, but the first line, technically, that was accepted this week, is [trying to imitate Trelawney] “It will happen tonight.” Sorry, you’re better at it. Mine sounds like Voldemort.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: “Nyaaaah!” Okay.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Was that a muppet I just heard?
Eric: That was… I was trying to do Voldemort’s “Nyaah.”
Julian: Voldemort, yeah.
Andrew: Oh. [laughs]
Eric: I’m going to leave the voices to you, Andrew.
Andrew: Sorry for calling it a muppet.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Laura: To be fair, movie Voldemort kind of sounds like a muppet.
Eric: A little bit. A little bit.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Okay, so yes. Our weekly quiz segment has kind of become the funny names club, so here are all the usernames that won, or some of the usernames that submitted the correct answer of “It will happen tonight.” We got Beaky for Life; Can You Spare a Buckbeak?; George Weasley’s Surviving Ear; Grimly Fiendish; Hermione Granger’s Impossible Timetable; Page 52 of Ron’s Copy of Advanced Potion-Making; Pettigrew’s Lost Finger; Pig the Owl, Ron’s Better Pet; Potty Lurves Loony; So from now on, if I want my name to be read, it has to be something clever and funny?
[Laura laughs]
Eric: SPT to HJP; The Emotional Range of a Teaspoon; and Yeah-Yeah, from The Sandlot. Here’s next week’s question: What spell does Sirius Black use on Harry and Hermione? That’s right; they get hit with a spell from this escaped prisoner. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form, on MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav. And just another reminder that Micah and I will be at LeakyCon in 2023 with Chloé. There will be a live MuggleCast, as well as a bunch of other panels that we’re on, and we will be talking about that in a very short amount of time. But if you’re still looking to sign up and haven’t yet, you can actually get $10 off your order using code “MUGGLE.” And we’re just very excited to be back in person at a Harry Potter con in August. It’ll be really, really wonderful, so definitely come on out, and remember to fill out the RSVP form if you’d like to come to the meetup on Friday, August 4. We are looking to finalize those details very soon.
Andrew: Couple other reminders before we wrap up: Make sure you’re following the show for free in your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode, and leave us a review. Also, follow us on social media. We’re MuggleCast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, Threads! Follow us on Threads!
[Laura laughs]
Julian: Threads.
Andrew: And we have to talk about Julian. Thank you so much for coming on today. You were amazing.
Julian: Oh, thank you all so much for having me. This was too much fun.
Andrew: Awesome. Glad you had a good time. Where can we find you online?
Julian: Oh, mostly just on TikTok at @ProfW. Yeah, we have a good time there too.
Andrew: You do. You do. Everyone, definitely follow him. Sharing great thoughts on Harry Potter. I meant to say this earlier; watching your videos that you filmed in class was kind of surreal to me, because I’m like, “Oh, those students are so lucky just being in a classroom discussing Harry Potter!”
Laura: I know.
Andrew: I wanted that so bad.
Julian: I’m going to take a clip of this and show them that and be like, “Just so you know how lucky you are.”
[Andrew and Julian laugh]
Laura: Please. I mean, you could make this whole episode assigned viewing, honestly. [laughs]
Julian: I should, honestly, because one of their assignments is to make a podcast where they have to do the thing, and so I might just be like, “Watch this and then kind of mimic it.” Yeah, that’s one of the assignments.
Laura: Oh! Yeah, “Here’s your example.”
Andrew: Well, if we can ever help with that in any way, I don’t know, giving you tips for how they can record or whatever, hit us up.
Julian: Yeah, I will do it. That would be amazing, yeah. But I definitely will use this episode as a kind of example for them, and be like, “This is how you can do this.”
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Oh, that’s amazing.
Andrew: That’s great. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, thanks again, Julian.
Julian: Thank you.
Andrew: Listeners, once again, please follow him on TikTok, and we’ll have a link in the show notes as well. And good luck, if you go to George Washington University. Good luck getting into these classes with 14 people chosen.
[Andrew and Julian laugh]
Andrew: All right, well, that does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Laura: I’m Laura.
Julian: And I’m Julian.
Andrew: Bye, everyone!
Laura: Bye, y’all.
Julian: Bye.