Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #751, Dumbledore’s Biggest Secret Ever (HBP Chapter 25, ‘The Seer Overheard’)
Cold Open
Laura: And this is Harry’s interpretation: He says, “She was not pretty; she looked simultaneously cross and sullen, with heavy brows and a long, pallid face.”
Andrew: What was also killing me is Laura calling out that it says she was not pretty.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Are you saying Snape is not pretty? We can’t say that anymore, apparently, because now there’s hot Snape.
Eric: Well, if he washed his hair every once in a while, and took care of himself…
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your ride into the world of Harry Potter. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: And we’re your Harry Potter friends, gathering here to talk about the books and the movies and the TV show. If you don’t already, make sure you follow us in your podcast app, and you’ll never miss an episode. And this week, don’t talk to your Divination professor when she’s had a few too many, because we’re discussing Chapter 25 of Half-Blood Prince, “The Seer Overheard.” We are recording, I have to let everybody know, on Saturday, May 2. [emotionally] It is the anniversary of the Battle of Hogwarts. Pour one out. Micah, this was your note, wasn’t it? You jump in here. [laughs]
Micah: No, you’re doing a great job.
Andrew: [laughs] Do you guys remember when J.K. Rowling would apologize for the death of one character on the anniversary of the Battle of Hogwarts? Yeah, she doesn’t do that anymore.
Micah: Well, she’s got a lot more to apologize for now.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I’ll be waiting!
Laura: Yeah, not going to happen.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: So we pour one out for those that we lost on that fateful day many moons ago.
Micah: 1998.
Andrew: ’98, wow. Feels like it was just yesterday.
Eric: I remember 1998.
Micah: 28 years ago? Oh my gosh.
Eric: Stop. Stop.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Laura: I don’t like that.
Eric: Cease and desist. Wow.
Andrew: 28 years ago, this fictional thing happened? Geez. Well, in brighter news, we have some exciting news. Year five of the MuggleCast Collector’s Club is here, so if you’re like Slughorn and you like collecting, this is the opportunity for you. You can receive six exclusive MuggleCast stickers by joining us on Patreon; that’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast. These stickers can go on the custom Collector’s Club card that Eric is holding up right now. We released this a few years ago. There will be an opportunity next year to grab this Collector’s Club card; it’s really nice. But you can get this year’s stickers now. Obviously, you can put these stickers wherever you want. This year’s designs… I love these designs. They’ve got spring pastels going on, in my opinion.
Eric: Yeah, Anna really pulled out all the stops on these. They’re my favorite year yet.
Andrew: I really agree with that. Year five is strong. So here are the six stickers. Normally we do five; we’ve got six this year. Laura’s pants, Make the Music Connection, one that has a typewriter with a page that just says, “… scar,” “Max that,” “Always,” and a MuggleMail sticker. Y’all have to check these out; this is a fun collector’s program for people who love MuggleCast. Previous years’ stickers will be available next year if you missed out on those, so it’s not too late to grab this year’s stickers and then still enjoy the full collection. The form is open now, so sign up by June 10, 2026, and we’ll get these stickers out to you shortly thereafter. The Collector’s Club is just one of many benefits, including a second physical gift every year if you’re a Slug Club patron. You’ll receive this by pledging at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Don’t forget, we have annual discounts to save you a little money if you pledge for a year upfront, and you can gift memberships. So maybe you want a membership for your birthday? You can ask a loved one to hook you up. Coming up in bonus MuggleCast, you have a nostalgic idea for us, Eric, right?
Eric: Oh, yes. We are going to be looking at Potter Puppet Pals. We committed at the beginning of the year to doing look forwards and look backs, and a topic that I think has only ever been mentioned on MuggleCast is how much we enjoy these old web videos, which started off in a pre-YouTube era and are now all on YouTube. Potter Puppet Pals was an essential part of the Harry Potter fandom. If you were a Harry Potter fan and you did not see the Potter Puppet Pals’ latest, you were actually excluded from some social spaces. So it’s wonderful, it’s a good thing that they’re good, and we’re going to be reacting to five of such videos in bonus MuggleCast. So that’s going to be a lot of fun. Certainly, as rarely as we have ever talked about them on the show, I know for a fact I’ve never been in the same room or digital studio as you guys while watching them, and that’s the appeal to me.
Andrew: Yeah. And honestly, I never really watched these videos back in the day, so I’m looking forward to diving in.
Micah: Same.
Andrew: Oh, Micah, you neither? Interesting.
Laura: Really?
Micah: I’ve seen them live, maybe? Didn’t they attend a lot of conventions over the years?
Andrew: Ohh.
Eric: Yes. Live is incredible.
Andrew: [laughs] Incredible.
Eric: It’s a real life puppet show! They have to coordinate when people are coming up, and it’s unbelievable. Blows my mind. I could never. I could never.
[Andrew laughs]
Chapter by Chapter: Pensieve
Andrew: All right, well, without further ado, it’s time to discuss Half-Blood Prince Chapter 25, “The Seer Overheard.”
Eric: Which we last discussed way back on MuggleCast 416, which was titled “Not Sorry,” for May 6, 2019. Here is a clip from our Pensieve segment.
Dumbledore: What you are looking at are memories. This is the most important memory I’ve collected. It is from MuggleCast Episode 416.
[Sound of memory uncorking]
[Sound of plunging into Pensieve]
Eric: So Harry is really super interested in this idea that… or Trelawney says she heard somebody whooping? Like, “Woo”?
Andrew: Whooping, I guess, is how I… “Whoop! Whoop!” Doesn’t sound like a noise Draco would make, but okay.
Laura: I know. I just imagine him in there, like, “Whoop!” [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah, I would picture him more like Bowser from Mario being happy. Like, “Ahahaha!”
Eric: “Muahahaha!”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Micah: Well, especially after what’s just happened to him. He’s in no physical condition to be whooping.
[Laura laughs]
Eric: Yeah, doesn’t it hurt the diaphragm that he just got severed from the Sectumsempra spell? [laughs]
[Sound of exiting Pensieve]
Dumbledore: This memory is everything.
Micah: I love that you can hear the seasonal allergies in the…
Laura: Yes.
Eric: [laughs] It was recorded in the month of May, just like this one, so some things never change.
Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion
Micah: All right, well, let’s discuss this chapter again, and want to start out talking about Hermione and how she begins to unravel the Prince’s identity. It’s one of the big pieces of this chapter, really. But first, speaking of the Half-Blood Prince, Harry is contemplating retrieving the book from the Room of Requirement, and I’m curious, what do we make of this? It’s probably been, what, a couple weeks, maybe even a couple months since the Sectumsempra attack? So I mean, my personal feeling is, look, Harry made a mistake.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Granted, it was a very large mistake, but we’re talking about one word, Sectumsempra, in a book that has otherwise guided him through the entirety of his sixth year, at least as it relates to Potions. And I know we were going to debate this a little bit, right?
Andrew: Well, yeah, I don’t see why he shouldn’t go and retrieve it. He’s only been separated from the book because of Snape, and in his mind, that is not a good reason to continue to be separated from it. And he learned his lesson: Don’t do unknown spells on people. He even acknowledges that in this chapter.
Eric: Well, yes, but I wouldn’t call him fully rehabilitated. I think he should leave the book where it is. I feel like the Sectumsempra, apart from being just a one-off incident, was actually the culmination of everything Hermione has been saying to Harry all year, that he’s cheating, that he’s not getting it on merit, he’s learned nothing about Potions… in fact, when Ron praises the Prince for, “Oh, thanks for the bezoar,” Harry should have known that from day one, year one, in Potions. The fact that Harry has been able to skate by on a utter lack of Potions knowledge is nonsense, and he should realize that it’s not just what was in the book, but it’s the person behind the book. That’s the problem. The person that would write something like that in the pages of a book, “For enemies,” vaguely, and Harry would try it. So I think he should leave it where it is.
Laura: I think so too. I mean, Snape is also onto him, and Harry knows that Snape can read his mind. So why would he think, just because it’s been a couple of months, that he would be in the clear to go and get that book? Also, speaking of connecting the threads back to Chamber of Secrets, did he learn nothing about the dangers of using a book like this to his advantage? Clearly not.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Well, and he has such perfect cover because he’s been dating Ginny these past few weeks, and Slughorn just assumes that his dropping performance in Potions is due to being distracted and lovesick, which I just love. It’s the perfect cover, Harry. Just ride it.
Micah: So it seems like we have a little bit of a split panel here. Maybe we should drop a poll in the Discord and let them decide whether or not Harry should or should not go and retrieve this book.
Eric: Should Harry go back to cheating and not earning his way in his class? You weigh in, in our poll in our Discord.
Laura: I’m making it.
Andrew: Thank you.
Micah: Also wanted to use the opportunity to discuss, though – we talked a little bit about this on the last episode, but I don’t really think we got into it – how bullied Snape must have been to create this spell in the first place. It’s not just a spell that you cast and it does minor injury; this is something that could have killed Draco, had Snape not been present to heal him.
Andrew: Yeah, and to me, that made me realize… this point, Micah, makes me realize that this spell was almost kind of like his friend who would look out for him in times of danger. This spell is his Ron or his Hermione or Neville, someone to stand up to his enemies.
Eric: I can definitely imagine being just so bullied and hurt and alone that you devise something like this, and you fantasize about using it on your enemies, and it evens the score. Yeah, whoever invented this spell was not in a great place, for sure. So it does give some more insight into Snape’s wellbeing, I guess.
Micah: Definitely. And somebody last week mentioned how in Chamber of Secrets, it’s Draco who casts Serpensortia, and then obviously we have Harry in the last chapter casting Sectumsempra. One further thread to connect is that they’re both spells that have double S’s, which I thought was kind of interesting.
Eric: Ooh!
Laura: I love that.
Micah: Yeah, taking the…
Eric: You know who else had a double S?
Eric and Micah: Salazar Slytherin.
Laura: Well, and I just think, too… I mean, maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but thinking about the serpentine connection here, I mean, obviously you have a snake, and you think of a snake with its fangs. The slashes that Draco gets from Sectumsempra, I think, are representative of that kind of wound that a large snake could inflict, so it’s very interesting.
Micah: Yeah. So Hermione is on the job, as always. She’s the one who’s doing all the hard work behind the scenes, and she discovers an old newspaper clipping featuring one Eileen Prince, who was captain of the Hogwarts Gobstones Team back in the day. And there’s some reaction here from Harry in particular at first, and I think maybe it’s a little bit of unconscious bias coming through without him realizing it. Harry really doesn’t think that there’s any way that the Half-Blood Prince could be a woman, and then furthermore, once he sees what Eileen Prince looks like, he basically says, “Well, and there’s no way that it could be that woman.” And Harry just knows, inherently in his bones, that it’s “a bloke.” And I’m quoting him.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: You can just tell. You can just tell, okay? You can always just tell. I feel like Hermione presents a very valid argument, which is that if her dad was a wizard and her mom was a Muggle, she’d be a Half-Blood Prince. It’s like, literally, look no further. It doesn’t need to be any more complicated than that. And Harry is just convinced. I think there’s some level of misogyny here that comes through. Maybe not the most conscious thing in the world; I’m not saying Harry is a super asshole, but he, again, says to Hermione, “I just know it could not be this woman.” And it’s just like, “Why not?”
Andrew: Well, okay, one reason that I understand where Harry is coming from here is because historically, men are more violent people.
Eric: Yeah, true.
Andrew: Is a woman going to come up with Sectumsempra? It just seems out of character for a woman to do so.
Eric: Fair. It’s such an offensive spell.
Andrew: Yeah, and that said, outside of that, Harry doesn’t exactly have a case to stand on here.
Laura: No, I mean, and again, I think there probably is some level of unconscious bias going on here. I mean, everybody carries that within them to an extent, so it’s not to crap on Harry for that, but he’s probably picking up on different context clues, like looking at the handwriting that’s in the book and making an assumption that he thinks the handwriting looks like a man’s handwriting, which he’s correct about, ultimately, although not all women have beautiful, fluffy handwriting the way that sometimes you see portrayed. I myself am one of those women who does not have beautiful handwriting, so always exceptions to the rule, right? But I think also just Harry is probably reading into the way the Prince’s notes are written and picking up on just context clue indicators of the gender of this person. And I think Harry is also projecting; I think that he sees a lot of himself in the Prince, and I think he’s been able to view the Prince as somewhat of a mirror to make him feel more clever than he actually is when it comes to Potions as a subject matter, which is so funny when we think about the theory that a lot of the fandom has had that, hey, we know Harry’s mom was good at Potions; we also know that she and Snape were buddy-buddy. Who’s to say that Lily didn’t have any influence on the work that Snape did here? So just interesting.
Eric: Oh, maybe. Yeah, I think, too, that with Harry, the Prince is his friend, and Hermione is the only girl that he could ever call his friend, so I think he feels an attachment to the Prince. And when I say that Harry is kind of misogynist here, it’s because, “This secret friend of mine in this book couldn’t be a girl.” It just comes across that way to me, where it’s like he’s got this friendship, or he’s feeling this kinship, or, to your point, Laura, he looks up to or feels a kinship with, which there’s no reason he should. The Prince is competent – and he is not – in Potions, so he shouldn’t feel any relation to this Prince, but he does, and I think there’s just this history where, because he’s gotten that sort of connection and he feels a connection toward the Prince, he just assumes it’s a bloke.
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: Something else I want to call out here, though… I mean, first of all, Eric, you were talking about the whole, “Hey, this person might have been proud to be half a Prince,” and Hermione is totally right. She’s wrong about who the Prince is, but the justification behind the nickname, she’s spot on, right? But I thought it was so interesting that Harry completely overlooks Eileen Prince, because in my opinion, the description of her, she sounds like a dead ringer for her son.
Eric: Yep.
Laura: And this is Harry’s interpretation: He says, “She was not pretty; she looked simultaneously cross and sullen, with heavy brows and a long, pallid face.”
Eric: Pallid. There’s a million dollar descriptor.
Andrew: What was also killing me is Laura calling out that it says she was not pretty.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Are you saying Snape is not pretty? We can’t say that anymore, apparently, because now there’s hot Snape.
Eric: Well, if he washed his hair every once in a while, and took care of himself…
Micah: The other thing, too, is that this is just to remind the reader – because this is a very small part of this chapter – that we still need to uncover who the Half-Blood Prince is before we get to the end of this book.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Micah: I mean, it’s in the title, right?
Andrew: Yeah, and that’s the other thing. I wish I remembered what I was thinking back reading this for the first time, because clearly, it’s a significant character if the book is titled the Half-Blood Prince, you know?
Laura: Right.
Andrew: Reading this part, you get to Eileen Prince; you’re like, “No, it can’t be Eileen. Unless Eileen Prince is going to have some huge role in the next book, it just doesn’t make sense for it to be Eileen.”
Micah: Similar to you, though, I can’t recall thinking that it was Snape, but it’s just so obvious.
Andrew: It is now.
Micah: It’s Potions, at the end of the day.
Andrew: Right.
Eric: Well, yeah, and not only that, Harry has to recall where he got the book. He got it from a cabinet in a classroom, and who inhabited that classroom for a dozen years? Snape! It’s just so easily explained as Snape left the book there, maybe unintentionally.
Laura: That’s also something that has always kind of bothered me about this story, because that just feels like such an un-Snape thing to do. For someone who is so meticulous to leave something like that lying around so easily accessible to students?
Eric: Maybe he wanted it to be found, like Voldemort.
[Andrew laughs]
Laura: Well, to be honest, sometimes I wonder, was he trying to have it be found by someone? I don’t know if he wanted Harry to find it, but it’s weird.
Andrew: No, you’re right, because we’ve been kind of talking about this from time to time during this reread: Why the hell was that book just sitting around? I don’t think it’s ever explained.
Micah: He likes donating to Hogwarts.
Andrew: Oh, sure.
Eric: He’s sick of teaching the usual batch of dunderheads, so he wants to provide special help to one.
Micah: And has Advanced Potion-Making not been updated since the time that Snape was at Hogwarts? That’s the other piece of this.
Eric: Right.
Laura: I do just want to call out the results of our poll thus far: “Should Harry retrieve the Half-Blood Prince’s Potions textbook from the Room of Requirement?” So far we have five “Yes” votes and six “No” votes.
Andrew: I’m surprised.
Laura: So pretty much neck and neck.
Eric: You’re on thin ice, Discord. I was about to say, I can never go in there again.
Laura: Oh, now we’re down to four “Yes” votes. Somebody changed.
Eric: Who unvoted?!
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: I did, because I can’t vote twice.
Eric: Oh, okay.
Micah: Right? I mean, unless we’re all going to vote the poll.
Andrew and Laura: I voted.
Micah: Oh, you did? Oh, okay.
Eric: All right, I’m signing in.
Micah: We’re back to five.
Laura: Okay, five v. six. Come on, “No” crowd. Bring us home. Bring us to the win.
Eric: [laughs] Come on, “No” crowd.
Micah: It’s even now.
Laura: Damn it.
Micah: We’re going to have to do a recount.
Laura: Stop the count!
Micah: Redistrict.
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Stop the count!
Micah: All right, well, one other note on this part of the chapter: I did want to connect the threads, because for Hermione, much like how she discovers the monster in Chamber of Secrets – it’s actually written right on a piece of parchment that she has clasped in her hand – she is beginning to unravel the identity of the Half-Blood Prince. Not a coincidence, I don’t think.
Eric: You know how difficult it must have been for Hermione to find the word “Prince,” to find somebody named Prince, without Google? Without any idea of where to look? What, she’s up looking at these previous Daily Prophets? She’s in the stacks just for hours a day? And for whose benefit? She’s not seeking glory here; she’s trying to help out her friend.
Micah: Yeah, she is definitely on top of her game, unlike Harry right now.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: But Harry does get a invitation to come to Dumbledore’s office, and we are going to head there right after this break.
[Ad break]
Micah: All right, well, we are on our way to Dumbledore’s office, but we have somebody who we’re about to run into in Professor Trelawney, and she offers up some pretty important information. And what I love about this is we were just talking about the identity of the Half-Blood Prince, and then moments later, get a revelation about Severus Snape, and it’s probably – and we’ll talk about this – the biggest piece of information that Dumbledore keeps from Harry. But before that, she seems like she’s pretty miffed at Dumbledore, and I’m wondering… the prophecy, that’s all been put out there at the end of Order of the Phoenix. Voldemort now knows. Harry now knows. Does Dumbledore just not have time for Sybill anymore?
Andrew: He doesn’t have time for anybody anymore. I do find it disappointing that a professor at Hogwarts wouldn’t want to tell the headmaster that she was forcibly kicked out of the Room of Requirement, no matter her feelings on Dumbledore, because she’s duty bound to Hogwarts, not Dumbledore, so she shouldn’t keep this quiet just because “Dumbledore doesn’t want to hear from me.” It is weird that somebody, presumably a child or a student, kicked you out of the Room of Requirement, and you’re just letting it go?
Eric: Yeah. I mean, that’s assault on a teacher. That’s got to probably have a pretty hefty punishment at Hogwarts. But at the end of the day, kids suck sometimes, and anyone crazy enough to, again, assault a teacher is probably… she probably just doesn’t want to make it worse. She’s like, “Well, that shocked me and hurt me, but I’m fine. I’m going to walk away.” That is a valid option for her. But I also wonder… because if she did file a report, the question becomes, “What were you doing there in the first place?”
Laura: Uh-huh.
Eric: And so this is a problem with sort of, maybe she’s embarrassed about the fact that she was taking her extra sherry bottle stash to the room at the time she was thrown out. And so she doesn’t want extra eyes on her, or face additional scrutiny, because that’s maybe what would happen if she did file a report.
Andrew: But that’s not anybody’s business what she’s doing there, because she’s an adult.
Eric: It’s not, no, and it’s not fair, but it 100%… if anyone other than Dumbledore were in charge… Dumbledore is just going to ignore her anyway. [imitating Dumbledore] “Thank you, Sybill. Bye.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: They would definitely be asking those types of questions in order to get the most full picture of what was happening.
Laura: I think unfortunately for Sybill, however unfair this is, she is kind of the boy who cried wolf, and I think that’s the…
Eric: I love that.
Laura: Yeah, that’s the reason that nobody takes her seriously, because she’s constantly making all of these death predictions. It’s why, when she says stuff about “My card’s showing the lightning-struck tower,” nobody cares, because she comes up with this crap all the time that doesn’t come to fruition. And yeah, she gets bullied by the students quite a bit, which is unfair, but she also regularly singles out a student, at least, in each of her classes, and tells them that they’re going to die. Don’t we hear that from McGonagall in Book 3, where she’s like, “Oh, which one of you is going to die this year?” So unfortunately for her, she has a reputation that disadvantages her. It’s self-inflicted.
Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.
Eric: A bit.
Micah: I do think, though, it says something about Dumbledore as well in terms of how we should look at him as a character, because here’s somebody who he was all about protecting, not just in Order of the Phoenix, but since the prophecy was made, and now seemingly he’s got other things on his mind, Horcruxes in particular, and how to go about destroying as many as possible before he meets his untimely end. But it just kind of speaks to the chess master personality type that we’ve talked about him having on so many episodes, and now here it is where Trelawney is just not of any use to him anymore. I think that’s also what this comes down to.
Andrew: Yeah. Speaking of the lightning…
Laura: Well, and…
Andrew: Oh, go ahead.
Laura: I was going to say, I think that he feels like it’s a box checked, right? Trelawney is still at Hogwarts, so she’s safe, right? So the quality of her time at Hogwarts is a little bit of less concern. I think we can compare that as well to what Dumbledore says about sending Harry to live with the Dursleys, where he’s like, “Yeah, you were a little skinnier than I would have hoped for. You dealt with some abuse there, but at least you were alive.”
Andrew: Yeah, and on the lightning-struck tower, the line from Trelawney is, “If Dumbledore chooses to ignore the warnings the cards show – again and again, no matter how I lay them out… Calamity. Disaster. Coming nearer all the time…” And sure, we’re talking about how it’s hard to believe her, so she says something like this and people are thinking, “Oh, there goes Trelawney again,” but she is very certain here. And I think her reading is reflective of how certain Dumbledore is of this plan that’s in place. He knows he’s going to die. There’s no alternative; this is it. And I think this is a reminder that she is occasionally a good Seer, but maybe only in instances when death is certain and huge, and it’s a big target she can’t miss.
Eric: She’s a great Seer, but she’s doomed to never know it. And maybe that’s a good point. Dumbledore is not… I agree 100% that Trelawney is 100% the boy who cried wolf and that nobody can believe her, but maybe in the case of Dumbledore, it’s not that he doesn’t believe her or can’t trust that what she says is true; he knows it and it’s just there’s nothing he can do about it. She’s not telling him anything he doesn’t know, and so he can say, “I don’t really need you here.”
Micah: I think she is a treasure trove of information, as we’re about to find out, but she’s just overlooked as well. Yeah, she’s a bit of the boy who cried wolf, but she’s also, unfortunately, because of that, not taken as seriously as she should be. And I like what you said earlier, Eric, because Trelawney is supposedly a descendant of the great Seer Cassandra, who, in Greek mythology, was fated to accurately predict the future but have nobody believe her, and Trelawney definitely has a lot of that going on. But I do also want to have, Eric, you call out here that the Tower is a real card in Tarot.
Eric: That’s exactly right. And I’m trying to find my Tarot of it, too, because I do have some decks of Tarot cards. They’re very fun.
Micah: And while you’re looking, too, I mean, the Tower does get referenced a number of times throughout the series, and I should have probably tried to find them all, but there are references to being thrown off the tower, and I think…
Eric: Like, “Top of the Astronomy Tower,” and “I’ll jump off this…”
Micah: The Weasley twins at one point make a reference to it.
Eric: Something like that.
Andrew: I can’t wait to pitch my exciting Universal theme park ride during that chapter, by the way, when we discuss it in a few weeks.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: That’s going to be great. Make it… yeah, it still needs to happen. But yes, the Tower in Tarot is part of the Major Arcana, and it does represent exactly what Trelawney is saying, chaos and destruction. It’s sudden upheaval, unexpected change. If anybody knows how this book ends in a few short chapters, that matches it perfectly. And this is from TheTarotGuide.com, the description here: “The change is usually scary, life-changing, and often unavoidable. A negative Tower event can be akin to a bomb going off in your life. You don’t know how you will survive, but somehow you will, and later you will realize that while it was a tremendously difficult thing to go through, and you wouldn’t wish it on your worst enemy, it has made you into the person you are. One positive aspect of the Tower -“ because no one card is evil or bad “- is that the destruction it brings is usually directed at something that was built on a false belief or foundation or unrealistic goals and dreams.” So Dumbledore is not going to always be there to save young Harry Potter, and the more that we realize… Deathly Hallows is all about deconstructing Dumbledore. He’s based on a false premise or lie. He’s imperfect.
Laura: You know what I love about this? I think if you do a surface level reading, you could interpret that this card Trelawney pulled is for Dumbledore because of what happens to him, but Eric, based on this description of what the Tower represents, I would say it’s actually for Harry.
Eric: Yeah, she’s inches away from Harry. So even if she keeps pulling this card, the fun thing would be it means something different every time.
Micah: Well, speaking of Dumbledore, do we remember…? Because I know we always remember things that happened 21 years ago…
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: … but do we remember reading this for the first time, and not feeling good about Dumbledore’s chances heading into the last few chapters of this book?
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: I don’t remember.
Eric: I wish I could remember if at what point I became spoiled, because I was not spoiled before I picked up the book, but I remember reading Order of the Phoenix for the first time, and at some point I just flipped the pages to the end to where I got to all caps Harry, and then that was how I found out Sirius was going to die. So I spent my very first read-through of Book 5 knowing that it was leading to Sirius’s death, and it softened the blow a little bit. Obviously, it still hurt – [emotionally] Sirius – but I’m wondering if I did the same for Dumbledore, if I knew… because a habit I would get into when I would first open a Harry Potter book for the first time was I would read all the chapter titles at the table of contents at the start of the book…
Andrew: Yeah, I did that too.
Eric: … and so yeah, “The White Tomb” as a chapter title might have piqued my interest, and I knew, since I’d been working on the name origin section of MuggleNet for a few years at that point, that “Albus” means white, so I might have guessed that Dumbledore was going to die. I can’t remember ever feeling a tremendous sense of foreboding, but it’s still a shocking death when it comes.
Laura: Yeah. I think it’s one of those things where at the time, I don’t think I had an inkling of it, but in retrospect, especially rereading it as many times as we have, it’s really clear that this is where this is going.
Micah: Oh, yeah. I mean, going all the way back to his blackened hand at the start of of the book, he’s clearly…
Eric: Marked for death?
Micah: Exactly.
Eric: Where the hell is my Tower? Did one of you guys take my Tower? I’m still going through my cards here; I can’t find my Tower. I guess I have no sudden upheaval to worry about.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Yeah. Well, the biggest piece of information, I think, that we take from this chapter… Harry and Trelawney get chit-chatting on the way to Dumbledore’s office…
Eric: [laughs] If you can call it that.
Micah: … and Trelawney is in her cups, she’s probably had a little bit of sherry – and by a little, I mean a lot – and lets slip that Snape overheard the prophecy.
Eric: Unbelievable.
Micah: And I want to know, is this the biggest secret that Dumbledore has kept from Harry all these years?
Eric: Yes, absolutely.
Andrew: The biggest?
Eric: Yes, the single biggest.
Micah: We know there’s a doozy coming in Deathly Hallows.
Laura: Well, yeah. There’s another one, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, I’d say that one’s the biggest.
Eric: Yeah, okay. All right, all right. Laura, get on that poll, because we’re going to talk about this.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
Eric: I feel like… okay, the whole “You must die” thing? Harry knows that. Harry, to some extent, already knows it. This is what the previous chapter was about, the discussion, and Harry is like, “Oh, it made all the difference in the world to know that I could go with my head held high.” He has known or figured that he will have to kill Voldemort or Voldemort will have to come kill him for several years now. And the surprise, then, at the very, very end, during “The Prince’s Tale,” where it’s confirmed that the reason Voldemort has to kill him is because Harry is possessing some portion of Voldemort’s soul, unexpectedly, is only a little bit of extra knowledge added on to what Harry already assumes. But the revelation that this teacher that he has thrust in front of, that he has had to put up with for seven years of schooling, or at least the first six, was the person most responsible directly for the murder of his parents, his subsequent orphaning, all the abuse we just talked about that Harry witnessed at Privet Drive, it all goes back to Snape? The fact that this personal relationship or this connection was kept from Harry, and Harry was not pulled out of Snape’s classes, or Harry didn’t have alternate Potions to…
Andrew: Yeah, it’s a lot.
Eric: This is a problem. This is a problem, right?
Andrew: And Dumbledore does say – and I kind of take this as foreshadowing – Dumbledore says to Harry, “You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy.”
Eric: “Harry, he said he’s really sorry. He said he’s so sorry.”
Andrew: “Interpreted” is the key word here, though, because I think what this is hinting at is that Snape did have feelings for Lily, and of course, we’ll find that out in the next book. But Harry, in this moment, doesn’t consider what he interpreted tore him up so much. What part of that… why is it the interpretation that’s bothering Snape so much?
Eric: It doesn’t matter. He killed his parents!
Micah: Well, and he doesn’t hear the full prophecy either, correct?
Laura: Correct, yeah, he does not know who it refers to, which I think Dumbledore also mentions here. But I think to Harry’s credit, Harry is like, “Uh, okay, so he was cool with somebody getting killed. That’s also a problem.”
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: That is also a problem. Good point. Also, I’m wondering logistically how this works. Snape gets apprehended by Aberforth, right? So they’re above the Hog’s Head in the individual rooms. Snape is hearing the prophecy; Aberforth sees him spying at the keyhole, pulls him up. But here’s the thing: He distracts Snape from hearing the rest of the prophecy, but the prophecy is still happening, right? Because I highly doubt… Sybill is coming to when she sees that Snape has been apprehended, and Aberforth says to Albus something like, “Found this one skulking around.” If you interrupt the prophecy, though, she goes out of prophecy-making mode, right? So she would have had to have finished the prophecy in one…
Andrew: She did finish it. I guess maybe Aberforth quietly pulled him away?
Eric: And was like, “What are you doing?” And it was just enough of a distraction so he couldn’t hear the rest?
Andrew: Maybe. It also sounds like Dumbledore was considering what to share with Harry in this scene, by the way, because yes, this is a big revelation, and Harry is shocked, and Harry says, “How can you be sure Snape’s on our side?” And then the passage reads, “Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something.” Was he debating, “Should I tell him about Snape’s feelings for Lily?”
Micah: I don’t think that would have helped in this moment.
Laura: No.
Eric: Right, right.
Andrew: No, no, it wouldn’t. [laughs]
Eric: “It’s okay, Harry. He kind of had the hots for your mom.”
Andrew: But he was clearly debating giving Harry something important, I think, that would help Harry trust Snape more and prove that Snape is on their side.
Micah: Possibly.
Laura: I think it all goes back to Dumbledore orchestrating all of this so that Harry doesn’t find out the critical information until the absolute right moment for it, and I don’t know that Dumbledore was ever planning for Harry to find out that Snape was the one who overheard the prophecy. It wouldn’t surprise me if Dumbledore was just always going to omit that information, at least until they won the war.
Eric: Because it’s inconvenient, right? It’s inconvenient to have two of his generals, Snape and Harry, at each other’s throats, even though one did the other wrong.
Micah: Yeah. And the whole remorse piece of it, the part that doesn’t sit well with me is, okay, he had remorse, but he still treats Harry like garbage.
Andrew: I know.
Micah: And if he legitimately had remorse, he would be unflatteringly… or what’s the right…?
Eric: Repentant.
Micah: Yeah, he would be so willingly kind towards him, you would think. But we know it’s the James angle of it as well. But to wrap up the chapter, there’s a couple of different things that are happening here. We learn that Dumbledore wants Harry to accompany him to go and find a Horcrux. Harry is still concerned about Draco through all of this, and he’s afraid, in particular, that when they leave the school tonight, that Draco is going to use it as an opportunity to do whatever it is that he wants to do, especially after earlier on in this chapter we hear about him in the Room of Requirement, very satisfied at having mended something.
Andrew and Eric: “Whoop!”
Micah: [laughs] I wonder, if Dumbledore wasn’t in such a rush here, would he have gone to actually investigate what’s going on in the Room of Requirement?
Andrew: Probably not.
Eric: No, he knows.
Andrew: Because he knows. Yeah, exactly.
Eric: But this is the problem. It sounds like Harry is the only one doing some MF-ing investigative journal… the only one pulling this thread, the only one caring about this huge breach and violation of Hogwarts security, of the lives of students. You guys want to know how to piss off Dumbledore? Apparently, the only way to piss off Dumbledore, actually make him angry at you, is to suggest for a passing moment that he does not have the interests of the students at his deepest heart.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: It’s unbelievable.
Andrew: Well, it is a little insulting. I mean, he’s not listening to MuggleCast; he doesn’t realize all the security issues going on around the school.
Eric: That’s true. If he had seen all the evidence that we’ve gathered…
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, we sell hats, for crying out loud. This is a real issue.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Andrew: MuggleCastMerch.com.
Micah: He needs to be reminded of his track record over Harry’s time at Hogwarts, about just how nonsecure the school is.
Andrew: But does it bring you all peace that he actually has some extra security measures in place? We just don’t know about it?
Eric: Well, they don’t work.
Laura: No.
Micah: Well, they’re moping around, and Harry accidentally bumps into them, like he does with Tonks, right? Is that his security?
Andrew: [laughs] True, right. Yeah, yeah.
Micah: I’m assuming, right? Because we’ll get a mini battle before this book is out.
Andrew: Yeah. But not in the movies, because that would have been redundant.
Micah: It would have, of course.
Andrew: To have battles at the end of 6 and 7? No, who wants that?
Eric: But we needed to add a Burrow on fire scene to keep the pacing up, right?
Andrew: Oh, yeah.
[Ad break]
Micah: Despite Dumbledore’s convictions that Hogwarts is firmly secure in his absence, Harry takes it upon himself and arms Hermione and Ron with Felix Felicis, and gives them direction, really, to defend the school – so good on Harry – before wandering off to the cave in the next chapter.
Andrew: At least somebody’s looking out for the school, right?
Eric: You know what I just want to call out? Because again, we missed at the beginning of this chapter that it’s been a few weeks of Harry and Ginny dating, and we’ll never read about it ever again, except in a fanfiction that’s coming soon. But my lovely Ginny… Harry, when he gives Hermione and Ron the Felix Felicis, says, “And give some to Ginny too.”
Andrew: Aww.
Eric: So he’s distracted, but he cares about her enough that he wants to make sure that she gets some of the luck potion that remains, and that, to me, sells me on Harry and Ginny.
Andrew: Ginny, you don’t need luck. You have the Chosen One. You’re good to go.
Eric: Aww.
Micah: All right, well, that wraps up this chapter, and at the very end we head to… it is interesting, given what we hear about in the prophecy, that Dumbledore makes almost a point of Apparating from the Hog’s Head. I know in the movie they Apparate from the Astronomy Tower, but in this chapter, it is right from the Hog’s Head – where the prophecy was made – before heading off to the cave.
Lynx Line
Micah: So our Lynx Line question for this week: You’re Harry, and you happen to run into Snape on your way to Dumbledore’s office after just learning that he overheard the prophecy. What happens?
Andrew: Harry would have said to him, “Apparently, I should have penetrated your mind deeper last year, you slimy, filthy vampire!” I almost called him Batman, but I thought vampire was better.
[Eric and Laura laugh]
Eric: [imitating Batman] “He is the night.” I would just say, “YOU KILLED MY PARENTS!” and see what he says. Would he run away? Would he stay and talk? Would he try and excuse it? Would he lie? It’s such an interesting thought that Snape would ever acknowledge that this happened, or bring up Lily, or anything.
Micah: I decided to go with, “So read my mind now, bitch.”
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: And see, I would just be going for justice here, and I’d be like, “Now, wait a second. At least there was an undo option for when I cast Sectumsempra. You gave me so much crap for that, but you got my parents deleted permanently. Screw you.”
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: [imitating Cybermen from Doctor Who] “Delete. Delete. Click.”
[Laura laughs]
Andrew: Over on Patreon, we got some responses. Zachary said, “You knew? You knew all along, and you never told me?” Thought that was pretty good.
Eric: Classic. Rachel says,
“I don’t know that I’d say anything to Snape. Whenever Harry has talked back to him, it never ends well. I’d maybe say something to Hagrid and hope he ‘accidentally’ knocks Snape into a wall. Possibly it’d knock some sense into the greasy-haired head of his.”
Micah: And Carlee said,
“I’d say absolutely nothing. I would think about it constantly whenever I was around him and let him read it from my mind as I stared daggers at him. I imagine it would drive him crazy knowing I know and haven’t said a word to him about it. He would want the confrontation and I wouldn’t give it to him.”
Andrew: Thanks, everybody who participates in our Lynx Line segment. And if you have any feedback about today’s episode, you can email or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also reach out via Spotify or YouTube, or slide into our DMs. MuggleCast on TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. Next week, we will discuss Chapter 26 of Half-Blood Prince, “The Cave.” Visit MuggleCast.com for links to our social media, our Patreon, our transcripts, our favorite episodes, and lots, lots more. And don’t forget to subscribe, review, and share the show with other Muggles.
Quizzitch
Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.
[Quizzitch music plays]
Eric: This week’s question: In this chapter, Gryffindor has to succeed over Ravenclaw by at least 300 points, which they do. In US college football, a record-holding October 1916 match ended in Georgia Tech scoring 222 to 0 over their opponent. Who was that match against? Now, Micah, I remember asking you last week, do you know this? And you said you might. And now I’m wondering, do you know who this might be?
Micah: Even though it’s in the document, no.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Well, I’ll tell you…
Micah: I don’t think I’d ever heard of that university. Laura may have, though, given the location.
Eric: This famous game in college football, 222 to 0, I’ll tell you what: There was only one person who submitted the correct answer.
Andrew and Micah: Wow.
Eric: And you know what this means? I finally…
Andrew: Stumped everybody.
Eric: … isolated. I’ve finally pissed everyone off and given a hard enough question, and everyone has left me and is no longer participating in Quizzitch – even though they get to do fun names – except for, you guessed it, Eden the Muggle-born established 2012, who asks, “Does asking my dad count as looking it up?”
Andrew: Aw, that’s sweet.
Eric: So props to Eden’s dad, and your continued participation in Quizzitch means the world. The correct answer was Cumberland University. So the highest scoring match in college football, 222 to 0, a blowout, veritable, against Cumberland University. Here is a relevant question for next week’s Quizzitch: What is a more common name of the ailment known as pertussis? That one’s easy. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form, located on the MuggleCast website. Here’s a reminder: Because this episode is being recorded as a double header, the Quizzitch answer to this question and next week’s question will be all read on the following episode, so when you go to the MuggleCast website, there will be two Quizzitch forms to fill out.
Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Laura: And I’m Laura.
Andrew: Bye, everyone.
Laura: Bye.