Transcript #143

MuggleCast 143 Transcript

Show Intro

[Intro music begins]

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[Harry Potter theme starts]

Jim Dale: [as Professor McGonagall] “This is Professor McGonagall welcoming you all to MuggleCast hoping you all enjoyed – Dobby! Dobby, come here! Here! Dobby!” [as Dobby] “Yes, I’d just like to say how very pleased I am to introduce MuggleCast to all of you! Thank you! Thank you!”

[Show music begins]

Micah: Because point four will never be discussed, this is MuggleCast Episode 143 for April 27th, 2008.

[Show music continues to play]

Andrew: All right, guys. Well, I think we have a brand new Wall of Fame entry this week. Episode 142; people loved the episode!

Laura: Yeah, they did. We got so many good e-mails about the show. It was just like phenomenal the way people received it.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: It was great. It’s a great feeling seeing all of this, and, I mean, for someone like Matt, who wasn’t even on, I’m sure he’s very happy for us…

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: …doing such a fine job.

Matt: Yeah, I’m really happy for you guys. You guys did an excellent job.

Andrew: You’re not jealous at all.

Matt: No, I’m not jealous at all. Just because you guys wouldn’t wait an extra hour until I got back and everything and you guys just wanted to do it without me, that’s fine. You know, I have no hard feelings at all.

Eric: Dude, wasn’t your computer, like, at the shop?

Matt: Well, yeah, I broke it, but…

Eric: Oh, oh.

Laura: Yeah, Matt. It’s not our fault that you spilled water on your keyboard.

Eric: Yeah, seriously.

Matt: It was tea! It was not water.

Eric: Tea is far more damaging.

Laura: And that makes all the difference.

Matt: It’s not my fault. I was watching Sweeney Todd, and, you know, when you watch it you just have to jump up and dance.

Andrew: Oh, way to get the sympathy vote.

[Matt fake cries]

Andrew: But…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We also got some negative feedback, too. We won’t sit here and gloat. I mean, we got some negative feedback about the show. Some people disagreed with our opinions, but the majority of people did like it, so we’ll cover all that this week. We’ve got some news to get through and a little more trial discussion. I’m Andrew Sims.

Eric: I’m Eric Scull.

Laura: I’m Laura Thompson.

Micah: I’m Micah Tannenbaum.

Matt: I’m Matthew Britton.

Elysa: And I’m Elysa Montford.

[Show music continues to play]

News: J.K. Rowling Documentary

Andrew: A full show this week. Micah? What’s in the news this week, buddy?

Micah: Well, the first thing I wanted to talk about before we got into the trial was that ABC News is going to be doing a documentary on J.K. Rowling, and the description reads that it’s an in-depth profile which will air this November and includes several interviews, the book tour for the final Harry Potter installment, and a tour of locations that inspired her characters. It even hints to what the future holds for Harry and his friends. So this is a little bit different, I think, than the one we saw a couple months back on ITV in the U.K., and then it was re-aired in Canada. What are your guys’ thoughts on this?

Andrew: It’s about time. I mean, you know, everyone’s been wondering where this U.K. documentary – when it’s finally going to show up in the U.S., and I remember I made the call out on the show, actually, I guess, five to ten episodes ago now, asking for people to send along the torrent and we did get the torrent. And then a lot of people…

[Matt laughs]

Andrew: …asked me for the torrent and I didn’t pass it on to them…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: …but it’s good. I hope they reuse some of the clips because that documentary…

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: …was beautifully shot.

Matt: It was…

Eric: Hm. So they’re using most of these clips?

Andrew: No, we don’t know that for sure.

Eric: Oh, oh, okay. Well then, I mean, because it sounds to me like it’ll be completely different. But also with new information – like they’re hinting at like, you know, the future of Harry Potter is all hinted at in here. So it sounds like – it sounds like Jo, who’s now, you know – you know, this trial aside, who’s comfortable sort of writing something else at the moment is able to say, “Yeah, you know, in about a year or two I’ll be doing this. It’ll be like this,” you know sort of kind of thinking about the future now, which is cool.

Andrew: I think the whole “Future of Harry Potter” thing is just an overused teaser because…

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: …that’s what really everyone will ask her about these days and…

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: …what everyone puts in their stories.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: “So where does Harry go from here?” You know?

Laura: And we already know. She told us pretty much everything.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Laura: So…

Matt: In the book.

Laura: It’s like, “Surprise!”

[Matt laughs]

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: Well, this is a much bigger sort of stage to be doing a documentary on in terms of who’s going to be doing it. I mean, I think the guy’s name was James Runcie, who did the first one.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: And the – you know, I think he’s sort of an independent film person as opposed to, you know, ABC doing this on 20/20. Barbara Walters will probably be involved somehow and the report actually said that it was coming off of a documentary they did on the Royal Family and the Queen of England. The success that they had with that was the reason why they decided to go and do something on J.K. Rowling.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: So…

Andrew: Hmm.

Eric: The second Queen of England…

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: …or, you know, Scotland.

Andrew: Yeah, really, or at least richer than the Queen. One thing worth noting is that last year Barbara Walters did her Ten Most Fascinating People, or however many it was, and J.K. Rowling, I guess, was number one, but they had no new interview with Jo. But in the meantime they had Barbara Walters interview all these other people. You know, Hannah Montana and…

Matt: Hannah Montana?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: …all these people that were big in 2007. Yeah, she was fascinating…

Eric: Hannah Montana made that list? How credible is that?

Andrew: Well, yeah – well…

Matt: Hm.

Andrew: …that could be argued, but it’s interesting, I think. We’ll see. Like if they couldn’t score an interview with Jo then, what…

Matt: Well, what…

Andrew: …I don’t know.

Matt: …it seems like to me in this interview that may be different from the other one is just – this one’s going to be to a broader audience, to more a generic audience that doesn’t necessarily know Harry Potter or familiar with it, but is just a fan of watching the behind-the-scenes, like the 20/20, 60 Minutes kind of shows. The one that was in the U.K. and Canada that aired, it seemed more like a personal interview. It was mostly about Jo, and it just seems what they’re saying about this new interview is that it’s mainly going to center around, you know, the Harry Potter series and about where Jo, you know, created him and all the places that sparked all the characters, and it was in the last interview too, but it did delve a lot into the biography of J.K. Rowling and not necessarily just the final book itself.

Eric: I think that’s what I meant, too, when I was talking about the future of Harry Potter. I think they’re hinting at what’s going to happen next as far as books. I think that’s – or what Jo’s going to do about the future. Like I wasn’t talking about the future in the story because we do know that, but I think that the interview is…

Matt: Like her encyclopedia?

Eric: Well, exactly. Like, they’re going to ask her like, “Can you give us a date?” or something, or a general idea, ball park, some. Or maybe they’ll be asking more about – maybe the interview will feature the theme park, or something like that. You know, it’s kind of cool like that. I think if they’re going behind the scenes with like places that inspired characters there will still be plenty in it for the Harry Potter fan, but like you said, Matt, it’s also like – as it’s an ABC 20/20 thing, it will be really also for a broader audience, which will appreciate it just the same.

Andrew: What else is going on, Micah?

News: Court Trial Transcripts

Micah: Well, the next thing we can talk about is the transcripts from the court trial were released earlier this week, and some interesting stuff. I mean, I didn’t have a chance to go through all of them. There’s three days’ worth…

Matt: Yeah.

Micah: …that are there, and literally, there must be over a thousand pages, if not more, of court documents, so…

Eric: Yeah.

Matt: It is really huge.

Eric: Thanks to Stanford for providing that.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. How does that work? Is it a representative from – I think it was Harvard.

Micah: No, it was Stanford.

Andrew: How – what is it, like a student from Stanford was there doing the transcriptions, or what?

Micah: Well, it seemed like the person was actually at the trial.

Andrew: Right, but I’m just saying – because at every court trial they have a woman sitting there on a type…

Micah: Well, they have a stenographer.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: So was she an intern from Stanford? I mean, I guess we don’t know the answer.

Eric: Well, I – don’t question your blessings here, Andrew. I mean, we provided these – these are great.

Micah: Yeah, I’m not sure how it works, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: that’s interesting.

Andrew: It’s strange, but I’m not a fan of reading Courier Post font documents, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Matt: Jeez.

Andrew: I didn’t really get through this.

Eric: What annoyed me were the numbers dictating the lines on the side, because they can’t be transferred. Like I wanted to post it to a big giant Word doc, and it was like a hundred pages, and with those numbers it was like really hard to manage. So, yeah, but it was – still, those transcripts are really informational, really helpful, and, as you guys know, it’s been a week, and there’s still no verdict. It’s almost the end of – it’s almost the end of – it’s almost been seven days since, you know, the trial itself, the testimony, ended.

Micah: Well, I think you get a pretty good feeling for what went on, even if you only read maybe the first twenty or thirty pages of this, and the pages are pretty short. But having sat on a jury at the beginning of the year, I mean, you’re thinking about J.K. Rowling sitting up there and having a judge talk to her just like he would talk to anybody else, and, you know, to see somebody who you hold in that high regard and that position basically saying – and judges, they can look like the nicest people in the world, but when they want an answer to the question, they’re pretty forceful in the sense of saying, “Just answer the question,” and it’s interesting to think of J.K. Rowling being in that kind of a position.

Eric: Well, you know…

Micah: And kind of what she was going through at the time.

Eric: I’m sure it isn’t as bad, though, if J.K.R. took this court on Judge Judy, or something, you know? I mean, Judge Judy always kicks down the, you know. But, I mean, there are no misgivings that judges aren’t necessarily going to lay down. I mean, they’re very forceful people, Micah, and you’re right, because I’ve seen Judge Judy.

Matt: Well, good for you, Eric. [laughs]

Micah: Okay.

Andrew: I think we should get a book printed out of all this.

Eric: Of all the transcripts?

Micah: And sell it?

Andrew: And sell it!

Eric: Micah threatened to do that last week…

Micah: No.

Eric: …and you said you’d set the lawyers on him, Andrew.

Matt: Well, no, we’ll only copy about ninety…

Andrew: No, I suggested we do a book analyzing the trial.

Matt: Oh.

Eric: Oh, oh, oh, I thought you meant the transcripts.

Andrew: Because we can do an analysis. I’m looking through these text documents and I don’t see a single copyright on here. This is public domain.

Matt: Well, we’ll only copy like ninety-five percent of all of it, then we’ll just put some other stuff in it.

Andrew: That, too. By the way, while we’re on this, real quick, I just want to say, I don’t know if you guys seen this, but there’s a brand new site out called the Maxicon – just

Eric: Don’t, don’t, don’t promote that.

Andrew: No, I’m going to promote it. I’ll tell you why. It’s a – it’s the Harry Potter Lexicon, completely copied and pasted onto a new site, and the guy changed the graphics, so instead of saying the “Harry Potter Lexicon” it says the “Harry Potter Maxicon,” and it’s basically to stick it to Steve saying, how do you like it? I’m not saying I support it, I just think it’s very interesting. M-A-X Icon dot org.

Micah: How did you come across that?

Andrew: Twitter.

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: Twitter.

Eric: Twitter. Sounds like somebody’s tweet on Twitter.

Micah: Twitter.

Andrew: Exactly.

Micah: It is kind of a stick it to you.

Laura: Despite where you fall on the issue, it’s interesting to see how the fandom is reacting to the whole court trial.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Well, it’s pretty obvious what – what the fandom – who they support.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Not everyone though. I mean, there are quite a few people who – who are still calling Jo greedy, still, but…

Matt: Well, I’m not saying – I mean, just the majority.

Eric: Well, I think after last week’s show – I think after last week’s show we did clear up quite a bit. At least to show – I mean, when we were talking about the Fair Use Doctrine, we – we – we showed, I think, definitively how it was actually sort of a close call legally.

Andrew: No we did.

Eric: We really did do that. We did it, you know, quite a bit of justice. We received lots of praise for that.

Matt: Now, I think you gave the listeners a good enough insight on it to give them their own – give them the choice to give their own certain…

Eric: Right.

Matt: …you know, their own opinion on the matter.

Andrew: Mhm. Micah, any other news today?

News: Half-Blood Prince Video Game Underway

Micah: Yeah, the final piece of news is that Electronic Arts, who has made every other Harry Potter video game, announced earlier this week the production of Half-Blood Prince is officially underway.

Andrew: Oh, that’s wonderful.

Micah: And I think you even posted an update here, Andrew, that their first review for the Nintendo DS version of the game is now available, but I’m going to defer to you on this one because you’ve actually talked to these guys. You talked to them last year when the Order of the Phoenix video game came out. What do you think about this?

Andrew: Well, no, I think it’s very exciting. They have – they have this new game in the works, and I mean it was expected, it’s definitely a big money maker for EA. What failed with Order of the Phoenix, though was the hype. It got lost in the excitement of the movie and the book, and there was just really no – there was no fanfare for it, and it was a shame because with Order of the Phoenix they put so much work into it.

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: They were really confident about this game. Jamie and I went to the EA studios – I guess it was in March of last year – and, oh man, these guys are so dedicated. They have an entire floor of people dedicated to Harry Potter. It just seems like the fanfare wasn’t up to speed. If you looked at the final reviews, they weren’t – they weren’t fantastic. Um…

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: …but, you know, with every video game, Potter video game, they’re calling this one the best one yet, and I’m sure it will be. They’ve had more time to develop it.

Eric: Certainly.

Micah: Is it the same people that are going to be working on it you think?

Andrew: Yeah. I recognized this one guy, Harvey Eliot.

Eric: Hm.

Andrew: I’m sure it will be great if you like the Potter games. [laughs] I don’t know what else to say.

Eric: I remember listening to your…

Micah: Well, I think…

Eric: Oh, sorry, go, Micah.

Micah: Well, no, I think we’re going to say the same thing. It’s just that, when listening to it, that those guys seem really into it. They seem like they were fans of the game and they wanted to put so much into it in terms of description and being accurate.

Andrew: Oh, they so – They care so much about this game.

Eric: They do.

Andrew: About Harry Potter. They’re huge Harry Potter fans which, you know, it’s fantastic! But it, just, the hype is not there for these games and they need something.

Matt: Yeah.

Eric: I’m not – I don’t even think that’s necessarily it, I mean, I think you’re right in definitely some respects. If I had to quote, I mean, I think I might – I don’t even remember if I did this on MuggleCast, but I did review the game. Or I did buy the game, the PS2 version of the game, and talk about it a little bit. You could totally tell that they had really gone into the books and created certain characters, certain instances, little subtle sort of events that happened in the book would be shown in the game.

Andrew: Yeah, there’s a lot of them.

Eric: They did a lot of that back story stuff, but then I think it also got lost in the actual playability of the things. I mean, a lot of the more historical, more factual things could only show up as trivia or wizard cards, and what affected the Order of the Phoenix games, I think, was playability in the end, because every corner of Hogwarts was absolutely utilized. They did a great version of Hogwarts, which was completely accessible using the Marauder’s Map as a feature, but every single corner of it was used, and by the end of the game – I mean it was free-roaming but it wasn’t very fun to free-roam at the end, and that’s such a shame because I remember listening to their report and seeing how psyched these guys were, so…

Andrew: Yeah, that’s what they were counting on, this open-ended game play where you can go wherever you want, whether you want to do a mission or not, you can just go walk around the school. At the time it seemed like an amazing feature, and then, you know, it’s still cool, and I’m glad they did it. I think it was needed.

Eric: I agree.

Micah: So it had more of a Mario or Legend of Zelda type feel to it? Like more of a role-playing game?

Andrew: They need to switch to Mario. I mean, Mario’s a fantastic game.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: And that didn’t come from a book. You know. Need to take a page out of Mario’s book, do some classic left…

Micah: Well, I mean, it gives you the ability to just go around as you please. Is that what you’re saying?

Andrew: Right. Yes. That’s exactly what it is.

Matt: There’s always going to be a – especially for gamers – a lot of speculation and hesitation on getting a video game that’s based off movies because, you know, they’re always – I mean that’s the general consensus that…

Andrew: They always suck.

Matt: Yeah, they’re always a letdown. And, you know, that’s not always the case, but that’s the majority of when video games are made based on films. It’s just a lot of movies aren’t made to be made into video games.

Andrew: We can continue this on in another discussion. Probably could be a big debate, but…

Micah: Yeah, that about wraps up the news, since we’re not touching on Point 4.

No Discussion on Point 4

Andrew: All right, thank you, Micah. Point 4 will never be discussed on this show.

Laura: Are you sure we don’t want to talk about…

Andrew: No, as much as Micah loves Point 4.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: And probably Ben too.

Andrew: Ben too. Ben IMs me – no, Ben e-mailed all of us, and he and he said he was an expert on Point 4 and would like to come on the show if we ever discussed it.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: However, I don’t think…

Micah: Awesome, let’s get him on.

Andrew: [laughs] I don’t think that’s happening.

[Andrew, Laura, and Micah laugh]

Micah: We could discuss the finer points of the…forget it.

Announcements: Podcast Alley and Live Show

Andrew: Yeah, the finer points. Let’s move onto announcements now. Thank you, everyone, as always, for voting for us on Podcast Alley. Don’t forget, MuggleCast May is coming up, and we have to be number one because it starts with an M just like MuggleCast Mapril and MuggleCast March. Another announcement: last week I said MuggleCast Live would be happening probably May 9th. And then, apparently the trailer, which is the reason we’re going to be doing the live show, may not come out May 9th. It may come out the following week with Prince of Caspian…Pr- whatever.

Matt: Prince – It’s just The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian.

Andrew: Oh, it’s chr – right, okay.

Eric: Thank you.

Laura: Prince Caspian, yeah.

Andrew: So it may come out with that. In that case it would be the following week. At any rate, keep an eye on and and we will let you know when a live show – we’ll be doing our live show. Whenever a trailer is announced – whenever we get a date – then we’ll announce a date for MuggleCast Live.

Matt: Whether the teaser trailer is announced.

Andrew: Teaser trailer, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I wonder how good the teaser trailer is going to be content wise as far as us discussing it on the live show. It’ll be a fun live show, but the teaser trailer – remember in the past, the teaser trailers, they’ve always shown clips from previous movies and then just a little bit – that’s why they call it a teaser of course, but, you know, I mean. At the same time – so they’re no longer doing it in Speed Racer, I guess. People think that it might be Prince Caspian instead of Speed Racer.

Andrew: Right, right, which makes sense. Fantasy.

Micah: Yeah.

Matt: It would – it would have made sense more, though, if they did it in front of Speed Racer since it’s the same movie company that’s, you know, producing both films.

Andrew: Well, that’s the other thing – Chronicles of Narnia isn’t WB?

Laura: No, that’s Disney.

Matt: It’s a Walt Disney film.

Andrew: Oh, it’s Disney.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Huh.

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, see…

Matt: It’s also a Walden Media, though. It’s also based off a book, so maybe that’s why they probably are going to put the teaser trailer – since it’s one fantasy movie trailer…

Andrew: Well, right, that’s what I was saying…

Matt: …since it’s the same type of genre of audience that’s going to be watching it.

Andrew: Yeah. I don’t know. I guess we’ll see. But at any rate, just keep an eye on and for details about that. And, Eric, yeah, you raise a good point. I mean, there isn’t much in the teaser trailers, but I was figuring with live calls we could go for eight hours.

Matt: It’ll still be the top news of that week anyway.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Well, let’s hope. Unless they get a verdict on the trial, but…

Andrew: Oh geez. Oh, please don’t happen on the same week.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It’ll be too much to talk about.

Eric: It’ll be like a mini Summer ’07 all over again.

Andrew: Yeah, we’ll have another twelve-hour live show and it won’t even be intended. But…

Eric: Geez.

Micah: Well, Warwick Davis is in Prince Caspian.

Andrew: Is he?

Matt: Yes he is.

Andrew: Oh, no wonder the teaser trailer’s going to…

Laura: Oh, that makes sense.

Andrew: …go with that film.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, because of Warwick Davis connections.

Episode 142 Going on Wall of Fame

Andrew: All makes sense now. Hey, like I said, Episode 142 was met with a lot of fanfare, and people were smart, they created a Facebook group suggesting it goes on the Wall of Fame, because I was saying if anyone thinks an episode should go on the Wall of Fame, find a way to gather people’s support. The Facebook group has about – gosh – 60 or 70 members now. So I think we’re going to induct Episode 142 into the MuggleCast Hall of Fame, which is just – or Wall of Fame – which is just a little page where we showcase our best episodes for new listeners. So what do you guys think?

Eric: Cool.

Laura: I think it should definitely go there. I think it’s one of our best episodes.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Definitely. We did a great job.

Andrew: I wanted to have some like celebratory music…

[Matt laughs]

Andrew: …but I couldn’t really find anything, so…

Eric: Cool and the Gang.

Andrew: Well, yeah, I thought – that’s overplayed. So…

Eric: Yeah, it is. You’re right.

Andrew: I don’t know. So, Episode 142!

Laura: Woo!

Andrew: In the Wall of Fame, yay!

Matt: Woo!

[Children cheer]

Andrew: Yay! Aww, the kids are happy.

Laura: Did you just pull that out from iMovie…

[Matt laughs]

Laura: …or Garage Band?

Andrew: No, that was the – that was the MuggleCast audience…

Micah: Is your brother having a birthday party or something?

Andrew: That was the collective MuggleCast audience.

Matt: They’re all eight year olds?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: No.

Laura: They sit outside your room like TRL?

Andrew: Guys…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: They’re actually all down on the street outside my window. I can look out and wave to them.

Laura: I’m sure.

Andrew: I’ll go wave to them again. Hey kids! Hey kids!

[Children cheer]

Laura: Oh, so they have delayed reaction problems.

Andrew: No, it’s just they’re…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: …young and slow. [laughs]

Laura: Ooh.

Andrew: Anyway, let’s move on to Muggle Mail now.

Muggle Mail: How Trial will Affect Steve and J.K. Rowling

Laura: Our first one comes from Marge Miller, 52, Phoenix, Arizona. She says:

“Dear MuggleCast, you put a lot of thoughtful debates and arguments about the recent trial, and there was a mention about the fans’ reaction to Steve Vander Ark. But what about any of you from MuggleNet, MuggleCast, Leaky, etc. What would you do if you ran into Steve anytime soon? Would he be invited to any more fan conventions? I’m also wondering about J.K.R.’s mental health. She suffered from depression before. Might this whole trial affect her in the same way? True, she has family, but still it’s going to be difficult.”

Andrew: I think this is an interesting question. I, personally, would… [long pause] …talk to him.

Laura: Yeah, well…

Andrew: I don’t – honestly, I don’t think a fandom discussion will – or this trial discussion will ever come up with anyone.

Eric: It’ll just be okay.

Laura: Well, I don’t think that people are – I mean – well, people might. But as for anybody that works with any of the sites, I couldn’t see any of us actively shunning him – [laughs] – if he walked up on the street.

Matt: Yeah, if any of us did approach him, I think we just – I mean, at least act in a professional manner at least.

Laura: Mhm.

Matt: At least, you know, be polite. Not just – you can’t just look at him and go, “Pfft!” and run away, because, well…

Laura: Yeah. No need to be rude.

Micah: I don’t necessarily agree with that. At least I think the people who already know him, and have met him before, like a number of us have – I don’t think we would be that, you know – I don’t know what the right word is, but I don’t think we would be offensive to him or rude to him, but I think the casual fan who may know who he is, who goes up on the street and sees him or sees him at a convention, if he’s invited, you know – I don’t know what the reaction would be. I could think that their reaction would be actually somewhat inappropriate. You guys don’t see that at all?

Laura: No, I think that…

Eric: I see – there will always be ignorant people out there.

Laura: Yeah.

Matt: I mean, just because you disagree with what he – if you disagree with where he stands and everything, um…

Eric: Hey, I still like the guy, you know, personally.

Matt: Yeah. I don’t know the guy, so I can’t really judge him because I don’t really know him.

Eric: But there’s not going to be this whole silent treatment. Are you going to say like the fans as a whole are going to give Steve the silent treatment? Like is that what we are like…

Matt: Steve is still a fan of the books and the series.

Eric: Yeah. Just like us.

Matt: He is still considered a fan. This whole thing is really strictly, you know, business and legal stuff. This isn’t, you know – well I mean we could – a lot of fans will treat it as personal, but…

Micah: Well, you also have to wait to see what necessarily the verdict ends up being, because if it’s something that is going to end up negatively effecting J.K. Rowling, which this whole trial has negatively effected her to begin with, that could also cause people to act in a different way then maybe they normally would’ve had this not happened or had she won.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: So people’s opinions can change in an instant based upon something like that. The overall comments that we’ve seen from people, and I know we’ve gotten e-mails on both sides, but they’ve tended to heavily favor Jo and support for her. I just don’t see people going up to him on the street, or at a convention, or at any other event, and just being personable towards him. I really don’t.

Eric: You are saying people won’t be nice?

Micah: Maybe I’m alone in that thinking, but, you know – and then how – if you are the head of a convention, would you want to bring somebody who was involved in a law suit with J.K. Rowling to that convention?

Eric: Oh look, this is a big emotional thing. Everybody’s – I think it’s way over the top. I think it’s been blown out of proportion here. We’re actually asking ourselves, as MuggleCasters, are we going to talk to Steve after this happens? We are actually asking ourselves that question. I mean, I just think the trial is something that is happening…

Laura: Well, no, Marge asked us that question.

[Micah and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well…

Micah: Yeah, Marge did ask.

Eric: Okay, so Marge asked that question, but I think it’s a fair question in principle, but I think we’re just – we’ve taken it – it’s gone on for like three minutes so far, you know, maybe more. What about the second part of that question? What about regarding Jo’s – J.K.R.’s mental health?

Andrew: No, I don’t think, no. I think what she’s been saying, and someone e-mailed in, and what annoyed me – someone e-mailed in and said, look, you guys are falling into her emotional trap where she’s threatening to not do the encyclopedia. It’s to get all of our attention. And I agree with that, and I said that on the show last week.

Eric: Yeah, you did.

Andrew: And I think it’s kind of low. I don’t – I think Jo may have just been in the heat of the moment and said that out of frustration. I don’t think she meant it. At the same time she could have said it to get the fans attention.

Eric: And that’s…

Andrew: Which I think is kind of…

Eric: Well I…

Andrew: …not cool.

Eric: Not cool, but I had mentioned last week too, as Harry Potter fans, we can’t help but be on Jo’s side, but what I was saying when I said that too, just to clarify, was that it’s not necessarily a good thing that we can’t be on Steve’s side. You know, I think – I think we are so bound to J.K.R and that putting J.K.R. on trial – I mean, it’s Warner Brothers versus RDR, but the fact that Jo’s on trial, that it’s this Jo versus Steve thing all of a sudden – it’s a smoke screen, I guess, but we’re all kind of trapped following J.K.R. I mean, I think that’s what was great about last week’s episode was that we were able to sort of push things and say, “What is the objective view here?” But, I mean, I just think what – what Andrew’s saying, too, though, you know – J.K.R.’s saying that she might not write an encyclopedia after that – like, that’s kind of a threat and it’s not – it’s really not cool. There’s a lot of things that aren’t really cool about that.

Andrew: Mhm.

Matt: Well, I mean…

Micah: It’s…

Matt: It’s really up to her. I mean, it’s her entire series. It’s her world. If she wants to do something, then she can do it. I don’t think anyone really has any say in what she can and can’t do, whether it’s cool or not.

Laura: Yeah. Exactly.

Micah: I’m just saying, look at the event as a whole. Just the overall stress of the situation and having to deal with this. You know, having to deal with this lawsuit from beginning to end, from when this started, you know, back on October the 31st and even before that point, you know, when the lawsuit was filed – you know, the overall stress. And maybe that lended itself to her saying these types of statements. And then…

Eric: But she’s a big girl, Micah. She is a big girl. She’s J.K. Rowling. She’s very, very…

Micah: Well, maybe she’s saying, “Hey, look, Eric. My book is being taken and copied. If my work is just going to be taken and duplicated, why should I bother? Why should I take the time and effort to put into writing this encyclopedia if somebody’s just going to turn around and take my work and use it for their own profit in the end anyway?”

Eric: Okay, but that’s a little bit different than saying that she’s been drug all this way. Has it hurt her feelings?

Micah: Well, that plays into it. Maybe she’s stressed out from the event.

Eric: Well, that’s what it is, yeah.

Micah: Based on some of her responses, they were very emotional, weren’t they?

Eric: Yeah. And, I mean, she really does strongly feel that way and that’s the whole deal, so yeah.

Laura: Well, and also we just have to keep remembering here that it didn’t have to come this far. It’s not like Jo and WB just, you know, up and said, “Oh, we’re taking you to court.” They gave them opportunities to back down and they didn’t.

Eric: Can I…

Matt: Yeah. That, I think, is what made it – that’s what brought it out.

MuggleCast 143 Transcript (continued)

Muggle Mail: Trial is Not Emotional

Eric: Okay, the next Muggle Mail comes from Bill, 29, of Kansas City. His subject is, “Missing the motive: the fandoms are the ones that should be upset.” It’s kind of long here so I’m going to go really fast.

“I’d like to comment on one issue that I think was completely underrepresented during your discussion on the trial, though one of you, I believe it was Eric, made a couple attempts. You, me, and the rest of the fans are being manipulated by lawyers that insult our intelligence at every turn. This trial has, or should have, nothing to do with J.K.R.’s feelings or anyone else’s. It may be true that she doesn’t need the money, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t about money. It clearly is. She is a billionaire. Steve Vander Ark is not and he put considerable work into this encyclopedia. She says the material is sloppy and lazy in book form, but worthy of her personal endorsement online? The nature and quality of the work in question was not an issue at all until an attempt to sell it was made so that argument doesn’t hold. Every successful fiction has unofficial companion books. You can spot them from a mile away. No one is going to get confused and even that is beside the point. This case is about whether or not Steve Vander Ark is negatively impacting her existing works, not something she might create in the future. Many of the MuggleCast hosts have taken emotional bait. I find the comments that anyone that sides with SVA is clearly lacking principles extremely offensive. The emotion in the trial may be based in reality, but I assure you that J.K.R.’s tearful admission that she just might not be able to carry on if she loses this case is a deliberate legal strategy, as well as a childish threat. All this talk of putting Jo through this is nonsense. Remember that she is the aggressor here, Steve Vander Ark is defending himself. Are we honestly to get all twisted up inside because she needs to take a few days to fly all the way across the Atlantic to testify in a trial that she brought? And I say she because all of this is all Warner Brothers dragging her into it. Then she wouldn’t be up there crying. I want her to keep creating, especially in the HP universe as much as anyone. Let’s be careful, however, not to automatically give her the moral, ethical, and emotional high ground. Why for her is it not about the money and for him trying to make a quick buck? SVA wouldn’t need to defend his considerable work if all he was doing was cash in. This isn’t about us wanting her to do more work. This isn’t about her current works being disparaged or diminished. This isn’t about her feeling sad inside. This is about fair use under the law and based on the four legal criteria I think he’s well in the clear. If this suit isn’t over money then it is most certainly over ego. Thanks once again, Bill.”

Andrew: Yeah, I like this e-mail because a lot of people e-mailed in saying similar things that we have to keep the emotions out of it and keep in mind this is a court trial with law. This isn’t about – this isn’t about who can put on the best, you know, water works show. This is about the laws and the four points of the Fair Use Doctrine. And I think that he’s absolutely right.

Eric: This was a good – yeah, this was a good e-mail to choose, Andrew, because it is so – so completely passionate in the direction that we didn’t even go in. You know, I mean we had made points to try to be objective but this is really the other side. And it’s saying that Jo is a smoke screen.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: It’s saying that all of this is supposed to guide us and misguide us into, you know, taking sides without actually realizing that it’s, you know – legally, it might not be a good enough case.

Micah: I just wanted to point out two things that Bill brought up. First, was him saying that “she doesn’t need the money but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t about the money. It clearly is, she’s a billionaire, and Steve Vander Ark is not, and he put considerable work into his encyclopedia.” That’s great, but the work is not his.

Matt: Exactly.

Sloppy and Lazy

Micah: I mean it is his in the sense of he took the time and effort to organize it in a certain way, but the work itself, the actual context, is not his. And then also the comment about, “She says the material is sloppy and lazy in book form but worthy of her personal endorsement online?” Yes, it is worthy of her endorsement online. We don’t have the book. We don’t know what it looks like in book form. She does. Therefore, that is why she was able to comment on it. You’re not able, Bill, to comment on what the book looks like…

Eric: I would…

Micah: …because you haven’t read it.

Andrew: I’ve said before, though, that there are…

Micah: She has read it.

Andrew: …pages of the book online and what it is – it’s an A to Z index.

Eric: Well…

Andrew: I mean, I’m with Bill here…

Elysa: Can I say something?

Micah: What? You’re with him in that sense?

Andrew: Well, I’m with him in that – hold on one second, Elysa. I’m with him in that – I’m not taking either of your sides. What I’m saying is that I’ve seen some pages of the book. They’re online on that legal website and it’s an A to Z index. It’s just a copy and paste of what Steve did. And Steve didn’t put work into this. He just – I mean he put work into his free website but not into his book that he’s paying for – that he’s making…

Elysa: Yes, exactly.

Andrew: …people pay for.

Laura: That’s what I think the context is. It’s just exactly that. It’s not sloppy and lazy to put together stuff for volunteer work or to put something up for free that’s, you know, that’s available by access for fans who are really into the books. But it is sloppy and lazy to take what had previously been free for the past what, six to eight years?

Andrew: Yes. Yes.

Laura: And then try to sell it.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: When people can still get it for free online.

Micah: Well, there is a sloppy and lazy element to just taking something and copying it over, right? I mean…

Laura: Yes.

Andrew: Oh yeah. I – yea. [laughs]

Micah: That’s why I’m not agreeing with what he’s saying here, and I think it was worthy of her personal endorsement online because she looked at what he did, what MuggleNet did, what Leaky did, what a host of other fansites have done, and she acknowledged that, and I’m not – it’s impossible for everything, the way that it’s organized online, to be put into the book the exact same way, and she even brought points – some spells, a character, that were not, you know, the same as what she knew it to be when she wrote the book. So I think that’s also the points that she was referring to when she said it was sloppy and lazy.

Matt: Well, you can also – can’t she also say it’s sloppy and lazy compared to, you know, her encyclopedia that she’s going to be posting?

Andrew: But it’s not the same thing, and J.K. Rowling’s isn’t even – encyclopedia – I mean, this is one thing we discussed last week, and thank God she is calling it an encyclopedia, because her case wouldn’t stand as much. I mean, yeah, it wouldn’t affect the Fair Use Doctrine, but it would affect what else WB is trying to fight – the fact that J.K. Rowling is developing her own encyclopedia and Steve’s would take away sales from that.

Elysa: Well I…

Andrew: Imagine if – Go ahead, Elysa.

Law is on Rowling’s Side

Elysa: Okay, I just wanted to say – I think it was Eric or someone that pointed out that this was a really passionate e-mail and sort of like the opposite argument – and, you know, what’s curious about that is that passion is an emotion, and secondly, at the end it says, “if this suit isn’t over money then it is most certainly over ego.” I have to be honest. I don’t really care what it’s over. I don’t care if it’s over money, or ego, or what Bill or anyone else thinks is the root of the issue. Who cares? I don’t care if she cries. I don’t care if she goes out and says that she hates infants and puppies. I don’t care what she says or what she does. I don’t care what Steve Vander Ark does. None of that matters to me and I respectfully, completely, and utterly reject the notion that as Harry Potter fans we’re somehow incapable of also being objective. I can be objective. I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m being objective when I say that I really, honestly don’t care how many water works she or anyone else puts on. This is, in my opinion, about the principle, and I do agree with Bill that it is, in fact, about the law, and as a law student I just personally think that the law’s on J.K. Rowling’s side. That’s all that there is to it, so I think, you know, I think that just because we disagree does not necessarily make us unable to be objective and somehow others who side with Steve Vander Ark are objective. I mean, clearly there was a lot of emotion in the responses to us as well, so we’re certainly not the only ones.

Andrew: You say it, girl!

Laura: Yeah, really.

Elysa Clearing Up Her Statements

Eric: I want to bring up two things. First of all, you really offended a lot of people that I know, actually, Elysa, last week when you said that people don’t have principles if they don’t know about – you said like the world wide had no principles out there and that was kind of really brash and kind of inappropriate, I think, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m not calling to chew you out. But the Harry Potter Lexicon – Micah mentioned the fansite award, which had been given. Now I’ve found in the transcripts something that I just want to share with you guys quickly because it kind of goes with one of the points that this Bill guy was saying.

Elysa: Hold on. Wait, wait. Can I just interrupt really quick? I mean, like no, I don’t – I’m not offended by you saying that, Eric, but I do want to attempt to at least respond to that. Okay? So can I respond to the offensive thing?

Andrew: Go.

Eric: Yeah! You’re a host.

Elysa: Okay… [laughs]… good, because I didn’t want to skip over that. I believe what I said, and if I didn’t then I will apologize for not making this clear, but what I said and what I meant was that if people cannot understand how this can be an argument over principles then they are probably not principled themselves. That doesn’t mean that if you disagree that you don’t have principles. You can disagree and still be a principled person and understand, but then you’re disagreeing on principle. You’re disagreeing based off of the premise of law and not based off of, in fact, emotion. So that’s all I was saying is that if someone says this isn’t about principles, this is only about money and only about profit, and taking a very cynical approach, I would argue that they haven’t seen, you know, they haven’t had experience in the principled version of the law before, so…

J.K.R.’s Fansite Awards

Eric: I always go along with my school principals. So getting on with this thing here. I have this quote here that I wanted to bring up before we moved on, and it’s a really good – I don’t want to call J.K.R. out anymore – especially anymore than Bill just did, but there’s a quote here that someone brought to my attention as well. It’s on Day 1 of the trial. This is just – I’m going to run through this fast. Question – this is to J.K Rowling in court trial Day 1. “Question: Did, in 2004, did you give a fan site award to the Harry Potter Lexicon Web site? Answer: Yes, I did. Question: Is that the only Web site you’ve given fan site awards to? [Answer:] No. I believe I’ve given the fan site award to about eight Web sites now. Question: Why did you give the award to the Lexicon? J.K. Rowling answers, I believed then that Mr. Vander Ark was showing quite obsessive interest in the Harry Potter books. But in a positive way. I didn’t think that what he created was of immense use, but I thought that it demonstrated a real passion for my work. And I – I gave the award, I would have to say, as a kind of A for effort. I could see that time had gone into his creation. Question: Did you give the award because you thought the site was of great quality? Answer: No.” Okay, so J.K. Rowling has said that, but then I’ve gone back to J.K Rowling’s official site when she gave Steve Vander Ark, the Harry Potter Lexicon, the site award, and this is what J.K Rowling wrote then: “This is such a great site that I have been known to sneak into an internet cafe while out writing and check a fact rather than go into a bookshop and buy a copy of Harry Potter (which is embarrassing). A website for the dangerously obsessive; my natural home.” So…

Andrew: Later it was cleared up in the trial, Eric. I think it was J.K. Rowling herself that said she had said that on the website to be nice to him about it.

Eric: Well, that’s exactly what I’m trying to prove.

Andrew: Because she needed a reason to give him the fansite award.

Eric: So she lied. Is that what it is? Or so she made them look good? Like, I’m just saying, is J.K. Rowling being honest on her site? I mean, she gives a fan site award to someone who has effort, but who she doesn’t necessarily like as much as she tells us she likes.

Andrew: Well, I wouldn’t like them either if someone had created the MuggleCast encyclopedia and then we endorsed it and then they turned it into a book.

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: But the MuggleCast wiki is fun to read.

Andrew: But it isn’t a book.

Laura: Yeah, but they’re not selling it.

Eric: I’m saying she wrote this about the website, and in court here she’s responding to how she felt then about the website. And I’m saying, you know, what can we trust with J.K.R. now, because that really threw me. That threw me that she was so kind of against it. I guess some of it’s the heat of this court, but she said basically, she saw it as obsessive and not very useful. And she’s telling us, when she gave him the fansite award, that it was so useful. It was her second home.

Andrew: She used it herself.

Eric: Yeah, and so I’m thinking, well, what can we – how can we trust J.K.R. now, is my question. Because, clearly, this is – I can’t help but think there’s some reasoning to what Bill is saying and what I had guessed before, that it’s kind of a smoke screen to have J.K.R. in this trial at all, that it’s kind of confusing the legal…

Andrew: I think that’s an interesting point, but I think it was said later on that she – she did say that to – she did say what she said on the fan site award to create purpose.

Eric: But that’s an issue with me because she slanted the truth.

Andrew: Well, you got to say what you got to say in court to protect your…

Eric: That’s true, that’s true.

Andrew: If she admitted in court that it was useful to her then that’s basically saying it’s useful – then that meets one of the Fair Use Doctrines. Is it useful? Does it give purpose to the – what was the point?

Eric: Hm. Whose side is that, though?

Andrew: It gives purpose – do you remember, we discussed that last week? It gives purpose to the…

Eric: If it creates sort of appreciation. If it enhances the appreciation.

Andrew: That was it. Yeah.

Eric: That was point one.

Andrew: Yeah, so I think that could answer it.

Micah: Just one final thing, though, that Bill mentioned was the fact that, sort of, J.K. Rowling started this whole thing. And, I just want to say, reading through some of the testimony from the first day, and Laura mentioned this before, it didn’t have to get to this point, and it was actually – I believe it was Warner Brothers who filed the suit. And if you look through that testimony, RDR Books, okay, did a lot of underhanded stuff throughout the course of this entire process. So, to say, “Hey, Jo, you started this,” I don’t really buy into that because I know that Jo tried to resolve the situation and did not want it to escalate to the point that it got to, and RDR Books was not compliant at all with Warner Brothers from the get-go.

Muggle Mail: When Will We Find Out The Judge’s Decision?

Andrew: One last e-mail today from Jonathan Wu, 13, of Rochester, New York.

“Hi guys, I’m currently listening to Episode 142 when you are talking about J.K. Rowling and her case against RDR Books and etc. I would like to know when we are going to find out the ending or whatever it’s called in court where they choose what happens to who. Sorry if I sound confusing. Keep up the good work.”

Well, we get your point, Jonathan. And it’s a couple weeks at this point. Right? And the judge is going to make his decision. Is that correct, Micah?

Micah: Yeah. I believe so. I mean I haven’t heard anything official, really, in anything that we’ve read that says he’s going to deliver a verdict on this date or that date.

Andrew: No, there’s no set date. I think…

Eric: Well, weren’t they going to go to the Supreme Court?

Micah: He even said…

Andrew: It could.

Micah: No, that’s only if they appeal.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I mean, that’s…

Andrew: Which will happen.

Micah: Whoever loses this case is going to appeal; there’s no question about that. But the thing is, the law is so vague in this case and we talked about it on the last show and even Elysa brought up, you know, previous court cases which Judge Patterson is going to have to use in his decision, obviously, and it’s just – it’s going to take a while to come to a decision about this, and that’s why he, you know, was so strongly trying to support the idea of a settlement, which I don’t think is going to happen either. So, it’s going to be interesting and it’s going to be a while before we hear something.

Andrew: Anyway, enough trial talk for today. Laura, we have to let you go now because you’re, like, being studious or something.

Laura: Yeah, you know.

Everyone: Bye, Laura!

Laura: Bye, everyone!

Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter 17, “The Final Hiding Place”

Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter-by-Chapter. This week we’re going to take a look at Chapter 27, “The Final Hiding Place.” It’s an extremely short chapter.

Eric: The end. [laughs]

Andrew: It’s literally six pages long in the U.K. edition.

Matt: Oh. You’re reading the U.K. version. Ooh.

Andrew: Yeah, I got my U.K. book here. Brings back memories. “Final Hiding Place,” and, Matt, what happens in this chapter? A brief summary?

Matt: This is the chapter after the Gringott’s chapter where they left on the – do we even know what dragon it is?

Eric: Yeah, oh it’s not…

Matt: Is it even talked about?

Eric: Yeah, we don’t know what it is. ‘Cause we thought, we had speculated, that is was the Opal Eye…

Andrew: Not at this point, we don’t.

Eric: Because of the opal eye, but actually it’s just any kind of other dragon, but it’s been blinded, you know, by living down in the dark so long. So, we were wrong.

Matt: Right. So, we find Harry, Hermione and Ron in the middle of their flight on the dragon to wherever the dragon is going. They have absolutely no idea where the dragon is going because they have absolutely no idea where they are. They left Diagon Alley and they are flying over, I believe it is, like, Muggle villages. And so it…

Andrew: Well, it said London. It said London.

Matt: Right. Well, yeah, they flew over London. Sorry.

A Dragon Flying Over London

Andrew: Yeah, and here’s the first thing that got me: what – don’t people see these guys flying on a dragon? Isn’t this – shouldn’t this be reported? It’s like, I mean, you know, whatever. Obviously, they got to get out of there, but maybe if it was darker. I don’t know. This is just…

Matt: Well, you know, London is very cloudy. I mean, it rains a lot.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: It’s a temperate zone. It’s a temperate zone.

Matt: There’s overcasts all the time.

Andrew: I guess you could make that case, sure. It’s just like the flying car thing, but even with…

Matt: But they were seen.

Andrew: Yeah, they were seen, weren’t they?

Eric: They were seen in the flying car, yeah, but, I mean, the point I want to make is that they couldn’t control the dragon; they can’t steer the dragon even if they wanted to, because trying to do so would alert the dragon to their presence. They have to lay low. They are so helpless, powerless to really control anything on the back of this dragon because they can’t really let him know that they’re there. Even when they jump off the dragon they have to do it stealthily because, well, it probably hasn’t eaten in a really long time, and, you know, the quote in the book is three “highly edible humans” were riding on its back, so it’s kind of dangerous, but cool all the same. They were, you know, yeah – they’re holding on for dear life.

Matt: And the book also says the dragon was flying fairly high, and so probably if anyone ever saw them, they’d probably think it was a plane or something. Kind of like how only six or seven Muggles actually reported that they saw a flying car. There was probably a bunch more people but they just shrugged it off and thought it was just something else.

Andrew: Ah, it’s just another flying car.

Eric: Here’s another question, because it was – because Diagon Alley can’t be seen by Muggles, at least at first, and I guess, you know, Muggle parents of wizard children do go to it, you know, as we’ve seen, I guess. We saw the Grangers in Flourish and Blotts in Book 2, but I’m thinking because it came out of Diagon Alley, and kind of went straight up into the sky, maybe it was protected under some kind of concealment charm? You know, so that they wouldn’t have seen the – because I mean, it’s not exactly like the Leaky Cauldron – that Diagon Alley is geographically in the same location as like the buildings in London. It’s not like – so do you see what I’m saying – that the dragon might still be protected because…

Hidden Geographical Locations

Andrew: Yeah, I have a question about that. Is Diagon Alley like unmapped territory?

Eric: Well, you’d think that…

Andrew: Like, if you flew over it, would you see it as a Muggle?

Eric: Well, no.

Matt: No.

Eric: You’d think that Muggle people would’ve realized that there’s a sort of three block long gap in between, you know, the streets and stuff.

Andrew: Well, right. I know.

Eric: So I wouldn’t…

Andrew: Unless the Ministry of Magic bought the property.

Matt: I think it’s basically like the same excuse they use for Hogwarts, the castle at Hogwarts.

Andrew: You just can’t see it, yeah.

Matt: You know, when someone comes across it, you just can’t see it or it doesn’t even exist. Like, there are probably buildings all around it, just like with Grimmauld Place. The apartment or the house just comes out of no where. I mean, it’s magic.

Andrew: It is magic.

Matt: It’s magic, guys.

Eric: And it could be like St. Mungo’s, which is what, an actual department store location, Purge and Dells, and then that actually happens to be St. Mungo’s. So we’ve seen a big variety of buildings used – sort of how they work.

Harry Casts Protective Charms

Andrew: Yeah. So the dragon lands – well, the dragon is descending and Harry, Hermione and Ron jump off the back into the water as soon as they think they’re close enough, and they get to the shore, and immediately Harry summons all these protective charms, and, Matt, you’re saying this is the first time he did this. Do you think there was a reason?

Matt: Yeah. Well, I think basically because he was the person who was at an emotional ease at the moment because I think he was – I think it says he was the first person to get on shore and collect himself, probably. Because he was the one who was thinking the most.

Andrew: Yeah, Hermione just collapsed.

Matt: Hermione had pretty much an emotional breakdown, it seems, when she was at the dragon. She was crying during the entire flight, so she was probably collecting herself that whole moment, too. I mean, it was a pretty traumatic experience. And Hermione is usually the one who actually does all the summoning charms, and this was just Harry’s time – first time to do it.

Flying on a Dragon is a Traumatic Experience

Andrew: You would think, now, that flying on the back of a dragon wouldn’t be very traumatizing at this point in their lives, don’t you think?

Eric: No, you wouldn’t! It’s still a big dragon.

Andrew: Wouldn’t that be like just riding on – in the back of a car to them?

Matt: Well, maybe she’s crying because she has like, half a dozen sores on her body, too.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, I’m just putting it all in perspective. I mean. You know.

Eric: We – they don’t actually realize, though, how high they are in the air on this dragon – which is three, four times their size. I mean, even if you were realistically twenty feet off the ground on something really hard – or sorry, something really huge – and you’re holding on by these scales – these metallic – there’s no handlebars, there’s no seat belts, and you’re going so fast at such a speed the wind is – I mean it’s amazing they were able to hold on. They were holding on for dear life and the higher they went, the colder it got. They’re just happy to be alive. I’m surprised they could move once they got in the water. You know, because of how fast they’d been traveling.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: I was trying to be funny.

Matt: I – I can see that.

Harry Inside Voldemort’s Mind

Andrew: So, with the big part of this chapter is that Harry gets into Voldemort’s mind.

Eric: Yeah, as big…

Andrew: By the big part, I mean all four pages.

[Eric laughs]

Eric: Out of six, yeah.

Andrew: Four out of six. Yeah.

Eric: [sighs] It’s – it’s – yeah, it’s really cool. I liked this part a lot – this scene.

Matt: So, basically, Harry gets a glimpse inside Voldemort’s mind, and this usually occurs when Voldemort has, you know, extreme emotional reactions to something. And we all know what it is. Vol – we see Voldemort at Gringotts in front of a group of bodies and things, and there’s this one goblin whose saying like, “Forgive me. They went in.” And he’s like extremely, extremely disgruntled right now, and he’s asking, “What did they take?” And they said something about – let me see. Do you guys – do you guys know what it said?

Andrew: Well, I mean at this point, Voldemort is the most furious I think we’ve ever seen him thus far. He just starts killing people left and right.

Matt: Well, this – ’cause this is the scene where Voldemort finally comes to the conclusion that they know – they’re after the Horcruxes, and they know what they are.

Eric: Or he suspects it. It’s just the first time he suspects it. He’s even angrier when he finds out that his Horcruxes are missing, but, I mean, he found out he lost one of them, and he thinks he still has like four or something, but, you know, later he realizes he doesn’t. I mean, when you were speaking about if Harry went in intentionally to Voldemort’s mind, in this instance, no, but I think in this point he was expecting it. You know, I mean the reason that it’s called “The Final Hiding Place” – this is pretty much, you know – Harry says to Ron and Hermione, “I think they may have noticed we broke out of Gringotts.” Or maybe Ron said that. Yeah, that was Ron…

Matt: That was Ron that said it.

Eric: So they really know that Voldemort is about to find out, and they’re going to have to go as fast as they possibly can. And so Harry’s kind of – I bet Harry is expecting to be so taken into Voldemort’s mind when he wants to kill everyone.

Matt: Well, what – this is – this is what I find fascinating, is when Voldemort gets very angry or very emotional, he always becomes submissive to Occlumency, and that’s why Harry can go into his mind.

Eric: Well, I don’t know that it’s Occlumency…

Matt: Because he’s vulnerable.

Eric: I don’t know, if someone were trying to penetrate his mind in the normal defenses…

Matt: Or not…

Eric: …he would still be able to rebuff them. I mean, I think this is…

Andrew: But he couldn’t in this situation, that’s what Matt’s saying.

Matt: But you always see – you always see him going into his mind when Voldemort is very emotional or very angry.

Eric: Well, that’s when it crosses the barrier. Usually they would live in harmony, but when Voldemort’s very angry, it’s that his anger is felt through all sort of parts of, you know, Harry’s connection, and it crosses over.

Elysa: Yeah, I would of thought – I would have thought that Voldemort would’ve, you know, done something to prevent this because, I mean, he knows that Harry has this ability.

Eric: Well he was.

Elysa: He knows that this happens.

Eric: The – in Book 5 they said, “we have reason to believe that Voldemort is now using Occlumency against you,” like trying…

Elysa: Right, exactly.

Eric: Yeah, to prevent Harry from blocking his – but in this case, I mean you guys got to think about this – somebody who knows and thinks that they are immortal. Somebody who killed – who made seven Horcruxes, put them in the far reaches of the globe, who was absolutely not concerned with really, really dying, has found out that some obscure item, this little cup – of all the things in the Bellatrix Lestrange’s vault, or in the Lestrange’s vault, this little cup, the one he turned into a Horcrux, and Voldemort’s daring not to believe it. He’s a – you know, maybe they like cups. You know ,maybe Harry has a cup fetish I don’t know about. You know, because he can’t…

[Elysa laughs]

Eric: He can’t possibly accept the heinous truth, the horrible truth, that somehow they found out about his Horcruxes.

Matt: No, he knows they know.

Eric: No, he doesn’t

Matt: He just knows.

Eric: Not yet he doesn’t

Matt: Yeah, he does.

Eric: No, he doesn’t.

Matt: He’s trying to – no – he knows that he’s safe. He’s in denial of the fact that they have them because he’s in denial saying, “no, this Horcrux is safely in this place, he will never know about this one.”

Eric: Well, that’s – that’s the thing.

Andrew: Well J.K. Rowling writes it as, “it could not be true, it was impossible. Nobody had ever known. How was in possible that the boy had discovered his secret?” So I think he did know.

Elysa: Yeah.

Andrew: I mean, what are the chances?

Eric: He knows – he certainly know that Harry has a Horcrux of his, but at this point, I think until he discovers that the other ones are gone – that some of the other ones are gone, he doesn’t really know how screwed he is.

Elysa: Right.

Matt: No, he knows. He’s trying to convince himself that it’s not true, and he tries to convene that he’s – that it’s not true that Harry knows all about them. Who can possibly tell Harry what the Horcruxes are and then he goes to Dumbledore. And he goes, “surely Dumbledore was always the one who was after me, and knew my secrets.”

Eric: He’s considering the possibilities, but at this point I don’t think he knows they certainly have him pinned. I really don’t because he…

Matt: I think so…

Eric: …because he was certain…

Matt: …because it’s the reason why he goes – then why does he go to all his Horcruxes, then, after this argument?

Eric: Because he wants to double their protection just in case.

Matt: Exactly.

Eric: He wants to double their protection just in case. And he says…

Elysa: He wants to make sure.

Micah: He goes after the Horcruxes – yeah, exactly, to make sure. He’s not a hundred percent certain at this point.

Eric: But he’s worried. He’s more worried than he’s ever been.

Micah: I wouldn’t say he’s one hundred percent certain. But he’s worried. He’s absolutely worried, and that’s why he decides to go out and look for these Horcruxes. He’s – it’s not- He’s in denial, there’s no question about that, but I don’t think he knows one hundred percent certainty that Harry has destroyed…

Elysa: No.

Micah: …all the remaining Horcruxes. There’s no way he’s going to know until he actually gets to these places.

Elysa: Right, like he was obviously – he was obviously suspicious. I mean, I think that’s why he was going through all of those justifications with himself and saying, oh no, he couldn’t know this, how could he know that, whenever else, but there’s no possible way that he knew, that you know, whatever – Regulus Black and had taken the Locket, and there’s no possible way that he knew that Dumbledore had gotten the Ring whatever else. So, I mean, he was obviously suspicious enough that he wanted to go out and protect them and find them, but I don’t – there’s no way he could have known the specifics at that point.

Andrew: This leads back to our original point, why Harry could get in Voldemort’s mind, and I think it’s just that Voldemort was so distracted he can’t concentrate on keeping Harry out. Isn’t that it? Can you subconsciously keep your mind closed?

Eric: No, when you’re that…

Andrew: From intrusion?

Micah: Well, he’s very powerful.

Matt: Especially when a really big blow hits you.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Well, that’s what I’m saying.

Matt: I mean this was a tremendous blow.

Andrew: It was such a big hit that he’s not concentrating on – I mean, yes he is thinking about Harry but he’s not thinking about keeping Harry out of his mind. He’s got this huge blow to his plan, I mean, you know.

Micah: Well, if you look throughout the course of this book, though, it wasn’t more about trying to maybe get into Harry’s mind and seeing where he was or what he was doing, trying to lure him into another place. Voldemort was so committed throughout this entire book, you know, to getting the Elder Wand, to pursuing that whole thing. And Harry was able to follow along, and if not for Voldemort, you know, letting his defenses down in this way, Harry would’ve never figured out…

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: …these pieces to the puzzle.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: And, you know, this is just kind of like the final moment where Voldemort is starting to – like you were saying, Andrew – he’s starting to let his guard down. He’s just not as…

Andrew: He has.

Micah: …you know, as fortified as…

Andrew: I mean.

Micah: …as he was initially.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, what an idiot when, you know – he’s having – the thoughts that he’s having right now are the most important thoughts Harry could hear other than hearing the exact locations of where the Horcruxes are.

Matt: Well, now he knows for the fact that Nagini is one of his Horcruxes because he says it, that Nagini cannot stray away from him anymore and she has to be under his protection at all times.

Eric: Exactly.

Elysa: Well, here’s what’s interesting, though, is that Voldemort was clearly off his guard, and not just because of his emotion, because – I’m looking on page 550 in the American version. It says that, “A modicum of calm cooled his rage now.” So, he was calming himself down and you can visibly notice it in the writing, that he’s not nearly as angry as he has been previously. And then he starts thinking in his mind rationally, logically, where everything was. I think the second – I mean, I think that, first of all, it’s a little ironic that one of Voldemort’s major downfalls will be his emotions, and secondly, the fact that once he had calmed down he hadn’t thought to himself, “Oh jeez! I know how this connection with me and Harry works. I was just really pissed off, and perhaps I should close my mind down right now before I start thinking about finding all these secret hiding spots,” but he didn’t. So, not only he was emotional, he just wasn’t even being logical either.

Eric: Mhm.

Matt: Yeah. Well, Harry was in his mind, but I don’t think he ever thought about the fact that Harry might still be out there, subconsciously aware of Voldemort’s mind.

Eric: Yeah, I think he’s got the Potter issue kind of really taken care of, you know, in his mind. He knows he’s still out there, but certainly had no clue how far Dumbledore had let Harry in until now. But that said…

Matt: Mhm. Well, he had no clue about how much Dumbledore knew about him too to begin with.

Eric: Well, I always wanted to say, I mean, just the idea that Voldemort has prized possessions, that he’s human enough to have sort of grand scale of importance. Yes, he’s egocentric and, you know, just the fact that you can follow a pattern with Voldemort is still really cool and kind
of leads to his downfall, because Dumbledore is able to use, you know, certain things and try and figure out what’s important to Voldemort. You know, everybody has sort of a set of things that are very important to them and it’s just, you know, Voldemort is just shocked that somebody took so much interest, I guess. But he’s now very in danger.

Matt: What I like about this whole going through his head, what Voldemort does, is the most interesting is that it answers the question, what happens when a Horcrux is destroyed? Because it goes through – like in page 443 in the U.K. version, it says, “But surely if the boy had destroyed any of the Horcruxes, he, Lord Voldemort, would have known, would have felt it.” He goes, “well, it’s true that he didn’t feel that the diary was destroyed when it was by Harry, but surely any of the other ones he would’ve felt it.” He’s trying to convince himself that even though he knows the truth that he himself can’t feel a Horcrux being destroyed.

Eric: He’s scared, which is, I mean, it’s so great for J.K.R. to be able to personalize – oh sorry, characterize this because previously she’s…

Eric: …characterized him as being so evil, like in the graveyard scene, and pretty much every other scene. You know up till now he’s been very evil, not vulnerable at all, very – well, he’s always been vulnerable but, you know, for all different reasons. Now he’s scared and that’s something you don’t see in Voldemort very often, you know. She only characterized him as being scared before when he was a kid, you know, and was fearful of Dumbledore as a kid. And it’s just – it’s so brilliant to have this. I think it’s very well written.

Micah: But would he be able to feel it, really? I mean, you know, we talked about him really being capable of being feeling any sort of emotion and, you know, the…

Eric: Dumbledore doubts it.

Micah: …the fact that he split himself into all these different pieces, I would think, would have such a negative affect on him that, you know, even if one of his pieces of his soul were destroyed, I mean you’re constantly cutting your soul into smaller and smaller halves or, you know, fractions or however you want to phrase it. Yeah, so aren’t you losing a bit of yourself every single time that you do that, so the ability maybe to feel just diminishes every single time that you – you create a Horcrux.

Eric: That’s what Dumbledore said. Dumbledore said that specifically. He said he thinks, you know, Voldemort was so out of touch with his other, you know, the fragments of soul. His soul was so fragmented that he doubts he will be able to feel if a Horcrux was destroyed because Harry asked him that.

Matt: Yeah. Well, he also has a half-life also. If you recall, he did drink the blood of unicorns in the first book. So maybe that made him, you know, numb to the fact that he can’t feel his Horcrux being destroyed too.

Micah: Yeah, it’s possible.

Matt: I don’t know. I’m always constantly trying to think what the whole significance of him drinking unicorn blood did to his fate.

Eric: Yeah, that hasn’t come out but that’s not really terribly a big deal I guess, because he lost his parasitic body and then was reborn so I kind of – I think it kind of passed over maybe. Maybe he escaped the unicorn blood curse.

Andrew: So…

Eric: But…

Andrew: …moving along.

Eric: …then it’s the end of the chapter. Then it’s…

Andrew: No, it’s not.

Eric: It’s the end of the chapter.

Hermione’s Reaction

Matt: Well, no they – basically they – okay, after Harry comes out of the Voldemort coma, so to speak, he tells Harry and Hermione – or Ron and Hermione about what happened. And what I find really interesting is this is the first time that Hermione is very intrigued on what Harry saw in Voldemort. She’s actually – this actually was a positive thing that actually happened to it and she’s not complaining about him…

Andrew: Well, it’s about time.

Matt: …going into Voldemort’s mind.

Andrew: I mean, you know, for the longest time…

[Matt laughs]

Andrew: …finally Hermione is coming around and pulling the stick out of her you-know-what, and it’s like…

Eric: Did you just really say that?

Andrew: Yeah, because I feel like, obviously, this was a huge thing for them to know.

Matt: It’s what they needed.

Andrew: And I mean – yeah, whether Hermione wanted to hear it or not, she needed to hear it. So…

Matt: Well, and also basically…

Andrew: …I thought…

Micah: There was no choice.

Matt: …you know, Voldemort’s on the run now after them. There’s no point in…

Micah: Yeah.

Matt: Who cares now?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: There’s no choice.

Eric: They just need to get to Hogwarts. They need to find…

Making a Plan

Andrew: So they realize it’s a race against time, and at this point, you know, Harry’s rushing to get to Hogwarts, and Hermione’s saying, “No, we need to make a plan,” which would probably be a good idea of taking a look at what happened in Gringotts and what happened…

Eric: No, that’s the whole thing. It’s a good idea to move forward because their previous plan sucked. They spent three weeks doing the exactly that – planning at Shell Cottage, and at the end it just turned out to be whim of the, you know, on every whim whatever they could do to escape.

Matt: But this situation’s just a little bit different that Gringotts. They broke in, they know where they are now, they know they’re after the Horcrux, and they know that Voldemort’s on their tail now. They don’t really have any time to plan anything anyway now. Whether they could in Gringotts, they can’t now.

Eric: Right, but if they did it would be worthless because they don’t know – they don’t control the board. They don’t know at all what they’re facing.

Matt: Well, they don’t know what’s – they don’t know what’s going on now. The only thing that they know is – is that it’s in Hogwarts, and that’s the only thing they could do. They have no idea what’s at Hogsmeade or Hogwarts. All they can do is just go there now and just face what they can because there’s no way they can find it out for themselves anyway.

Andrew: Wow. And also, the thing about rushing the plan – the last time they rushed a plan, they went to the Ministry of Magic, and – I mean, yeah, they got out of it, of course, but that – that plan also sort of fell apart, and they rushed that. Remember when…

Eric: Yeah…

Andrew: It’s basically the same situation. Hermione was like, we need to have a plan, and Harry was like no we need to do it now, and Harry was right, but, you know, this is what happens, and…

MuggleCast 143 Transcript (continued)

Counting Horcruxes

Micah: I just want to ask a question here, because I never thought of this until this point, but anybody reading this here say, wait a second, Voldemort’s going through all the Horcruxes and he’s only up to six.

Eric: Well, there’s the one in his body.

Micah: No, no, no, no, no. My point being, obviously, Harry is a Horcrux, but…

Eric: But there’s eight. There’s actually eight Horcruxes.

Andrew: Yeah, Harry’s sort of a Horcrux…

Micah: Well…

Andrew: It’s like…

Eric: Yeah, there is actually seven without Harry being one.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: I’m pretty sure, because there’s the tiara of Ravenclaw’s, the Lost Diadem, and then there’s the cup, and the snake, and the one in Voldemort’s body, and the diary…

Micah: Right, but the conversation with Dumbledore was that, before, he had created seven Horcruxes. That’s what Dumbledore believed back in Half-Blood Prince.

Andrew: So you’re saying Voldemort is listing six here?

Eric: Well, then the locket. Which is…

Micah: He’s only getting up to six. Yeah. The diary has already been destroyed. He knows that. They’ve already broken into Gringotts. He knows that. So he’s going to the lake, and we know the locket’s…

Eric: The ring.

Micah: …already been destroyed. The Gaunt Shack, we know the ring has already been destroyed. And then Nagini, and then Hogwarts. That’s only six, so did anybody – at this point in reading…

Eric: No, there’s actually seven.

Andrew: All Micah is saying is that…

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: …why don’t we realize Voldemort is only…

Micah: Yeah, reading this…

Andrew: …counting six and not seven. We should have noticed that he’s only counting six because then we would wonder, oh, where’s the seventh…

Micah: Then part of his soul is within Harry. Yeah, exactly. That’s my point.

Andrew: Yeah. Okay.

Micah: When reading this, did you ever say to yourself, “Hey, maybe that book that MuggleNet wrote might have been right”? You know what I’m saying?

[Andrew and Matt laugh]

Andrew: I mean – if I’ve read it, I…

Elysa: Nice plug!

Eric: I didn’t read that book. I wish I could tell you, Micah, that I said that, but I didn’t actually read that book.

Micah: [laughs] Nice plug. But, Elysa do you know what…

Elysa: No.

Micah: …I’m trying to say here? Did anybody just notice the fact…

Elysa: No, I completely – I completely understand, Micah. That’s a good point.

Micah: [laughs] But Harry didn’t even think of it, which was a little weird.

Andrew: Well, I think it’s convenient. I don’t think – you know – I don’t think they would have time to figure that out and – and, look, Harry’s…

Matt: It worked out fine anyway.

Andrew: Harry – Harry’s caught in the moment, too. I mean he’s not sitting there counting on his fingers. He’s just concentrating exactly on what Voldemort’s saying. He’s looking for new information, not to pick – he’s not trying to read in between the lines.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: I don’t know. I don’t know.

Micah: Anyway…

Andrew: I try to act like Jo sometimes and give Jo answers. But – so Harry realizes that they can’t all be separated, so they go under the Invisibility Cloak together, which is another throwback to Sorcerer’s Stone – and that’s – it’s cute, but…

Matt: Well, except they’re now taller, and you can see their feet now.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say.

Matt: Well, anyway. Okay, so that’s the end of the chapter. It’s a nice transition into the next one, which is called “The Missing Mirror,” which we’ll get into next week – and – so – oh wait. Andrew, do you have a quote quiz?

Quote Quiz

[Audio for Quote Quiz plays]

Andrew: I don’t have one prepared, so I’m just going to look it up right now. “If I want to put my cat out, I will, and be damned to your curfew!” That’s Quote Quiz this week.


Andrew: All right, we have a few voicemails; just three actually. I got to – I got to tell you guys, we haven’t been getting voicemails. We only got one from the U.K., zero from Australia – in the – in the past week I’m talking about, since I fixed the voicemail line. Yeah, so, guys, feel free to call in. The contact information is at the end. Ask some good questions, please, we like good questions. Okay, here’s the first question:

Voicemail: Micah Swears A Lot

[Audio]: Hey, guys, I’ve been listening for a little while, and I noticed last week that, Micah, you used the S-word twice, only one instance of which was censored. The other one was near the middle of minute 59, I think. Just wanted to let you guys know, ’cause I’d hate for there to – you know, my own parents kind of listen to what I listen to to make sure it’s all right, and I’d hate to stop listening to MuggleCast and switch over to that other podcast.

Andrew: I don’t know what he’s talking about.

[Audio continued]: Anyway, keep up with the good work. I love the show. Thanks, bye.

Andrew: Yeah, that was my fault, Micah, sorry.

Micah: Yeah, I don’t know what the hell I was thinking. What did I say? Bull[bleep]?

Andrew: Yeah, you said it twice, and first time I had it bleeped, and then the second time I didn’t. You see, what happens is I’ll edit, and then it’s playing, and I’ll sort of like go off in my own world. I’ll start thinking about, you know, Hairspray

Elysa: Spice Girls…

Andrew: …Edna Turnblad, Spice Girls – I wasn’t going to say Spice Girls, Elysa, [unintelligible]

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: And then I just – it – you know.

Matt: Mhm. I think it’s hilarious, though, how everyone tries to tell you that you swore.

Andrew: Actually, we didn’t get much feedback about this one, which I’m happy about.

Matt: Oh, good.

Andrew: Everyone – everyone – everyone rags on Laura when she curses, but when it’s Micah – I guess they’re just scared of you, Micah.

Elysa: They just…

Micah: As well they should be.

Elysa: Everyone loves Micah’s dulcet tones. They’ll take it however they can get it.

Andrew: Mmm. You can say that again.

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: But don’t. All right, here’s another. There’s only…

Micah: So I apologize.

Andrew: We only have two this week, so here’s the final one.

Voicemail: It’s Okay to Not Read the Books

[Audio]:: Hi, it’s Matthew B. [Beginning is unintelligible] I’m listening to the live show, and I just wanted to comment. Someone was saying that – what was it?

Matt: I don’t know.

[Audio continued]: [unintelligible] books, and you miss out if you don’t get them. But I’d just like to comment and say, no, you haven’t, because, as good as the books are… [unintelligible]… they are good. They are very good, because I’ve read them, but you are not missing out if you’ve not read them because you get something different if you just watch the films. You’ll get something different, or maybe you should just read the books and never saw the films. You get something different from each side, even if you [unintelligible] both, you’d get something different. You get a different view of the whole [unintelligible]. So I’d just like to say that. So if you haven’t read the books, you’re not missing out. You’re just going to see it in a different way. I’d just like to [unintelligible]comment. Thanks, bye.

Andrew: I think it’s a really interesting perspective.

Eric: It’s a good way of looking at it too.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: I think – in the perspective of like fans of the books, who have seen the movies too, it’s an inclination to say that you’re missing out if you haven’t read the books and have only seen the movies, because there is so much more. I mean this guy’s saying that they’re two totally different mediums, that you’re not necessarily missing out. They’re just so different. But I think it’s – I think it’s still – I think we’re allowed to say to people that they’re missing out, because that happens to be a matter of opinion.

Matt: Well, that’s always the consensus with people who read the books. Fans of books that are made into films will always, you know, hold onto their books more than the films because they love every single part of it, and every time something’s cut…

Eric: Yeah. I saw the movie first, and I’m still going to say that if you don’t read the books you’re missing out on a lot. A lot of good, creative stuff.

Micah: Same here. I completely agree with that.

Matt: Well, yeah. I think many of us who actually go see the movies see it with Potter fans of the movie who haven’t seen – read the books. And some of the movies – I mean they get so confusing for some of the people who haven’t read the books and they – and they actually – you know, my brother and sister, when they watch the movies, they actually ask me during the film, “What just happened?” ‘Cause sometimes you just need the book to make more sense.

Andrew: You do, but in the sense that, I think, we’ve said before, Sorcerer’s Stone and Chamber of Secrets, the films are really special in their own right. I mean it is a different experience. And…

Matt: They’re also – they don’t cut as much from the books.

Andrew: …I do agree – I disagree with this caller in that, yeah, you are missing out when you don’t read the books, but at the same time, yeah, they’re separate, and they do get something unique out of the movies. And I think that’s what he’s trying to say.

Andrew Loses Eric

Eric: Andrew, I actually – I got to actually get going.

Andrew: All right, Eric’s got to leave now. Everyone is ditching us tonight.

[Eric laughs]

Eric: Okay. See you guys later. I’m Eric Scull.

Micah: Bye.

Eric: Take it easy. Ciao.

Andrew: Bye.

Elysa: Bye, Eric.

Eric: Wait.

Andrew: [laughs] What?

Eric: I’m back. There’s something I had to talk about before I go. I just wanted – my girlfriend made – wants me to do mention something about last week’s show. It’ll be quick, but – but if you guys recall, we had said that “The Root of all Evil” was a bad show, and I just wanted to clarify that it’s not a bad show.

Andrew: Ah, it’s a terrible show.

Eric: I like it.

Elysa: You want to clarify or she wants to clarify?

Eric: We watch it every week. No, I want to clarify. It’s just…

Andrew: It’s – it’s scripted. It’s bad.

Matt: “Root of all Evil” sucks.

Elysa: I think it’s god awful, personally.

Matt: I think it’s a horrible show, so I’m sorry, Eric.

Eric: I-I-I-I think it’s good. Okay. Bye.

Andrew: Wait, you think it’s what?

Eric: I think it’s…

Andrew: Oh sorry, we just lost Eric. That’s weird.

[Elysa and Micah laughs]

Micah: That was awesome.

Elysa: Oh my god, Andrew.

Make the Music Connection

[Make the Music Connection Audio plays]

Andrew: Eric free! All right, well, we have a few songs here. Chosen by Eric out of his own personal collection.

Micah: Library?

Andrew: iTunes. Personal library. He gave you a challenging one, Micah. I guess we’ll start with you. It’s – It’s gosh…

Micah: Do I know this song?

Andrew: I want to see what you do with this.

[“Tubthumping” by Chumbawamba begins to play]

Micah: All right, let’s go.

Andrew: Tubthumping by Chumbawamba.

Matt: [sings] I get knocked down, but I get up again, I…

[song continues to play and then fades]

Andrew: I guess you just want to listen to the chorus for your answer – your answer to that question.

Micah: Yeah. My math teacher actually used to play that song during exams. That has absolutely…

[Elysa laughs]

Micah: …zero relevance to…

Andrew: And why would she do that?

Micah: …Make the Music Connection. He did it – I don’t know. He actually played the radio when we took exams.

Andrew: Oh. So it was always on the radio. That’s understandable.

Micah: Yeah. I’m dating myself a little bit by saying that it was on the radio.

Andrew: Yeah, ha ha, you’re old.

Micah: It’s been a fair enough time.

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: You’re not that old. Anyway…

Micah: You guys knew that song, right?

Andrew and

Elysa: Yeah.

Andrew: Of course.

Elysa: Yeah.

Matt: Heck yeah.

Micah: I was going to say that there’s two things that come to mind. One was, you know, when Ron was playing Quidditch and trying to make the team, and no matter what he just kept going at it. But then there’s another one. I think, overall, what Harry’s gone through. He’s gotten knocked down a bunch of times, but he just keeps getting back up and fighting.

Andrew: That’s so true.

Matt: Ah, yes.

Micah: So, yeah. That’s my tribute to Chumbawamba.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: All right, Elysa, it’s your turn.

Elysa: All right.

[“Crazy” by Gnarls Barkley begins playing]

Andrew: [laughs] Make the connection, Elysa.

Elysa: Oh, this is an easy one for me. This is totally Dumbledore’s song for Grindelwald.

[music stops]

Matt: Oh, my God.

Andrew: [laughs] That is wonderful.

Elysa: Does no one else see that connection?

Andrew: No, I like it! Yeah, I like it!

Elysa: God!

Andrew: I get it, because he was gay. I get it.

Matt: I don’t know about you guys, but whenever we do this segment I always think of the song as a musical and they just break out and start singing.

[Andrew laughs]

Matt: So seeing Dumbledore bust out singing, [sings] “I think you’re crazy” is a little…

Elysa: Have you seen – have you guys seen that movie, you know, 40-Year Old Virgin at the end where they all break out into dance?

Matt: Yeah.

Elysa: Have you seen that movie?

Micah: Yeah.

Elysa: That’s what – I see the same thing, Matt. So I see Dumbledore in the center singing this to Grindelwald and, you know, Harry and everyone else sort of doing the background dancing.

Andrew: They did that at the end of – what’s the sequel to Bruce Almighty?

Matt: Evan Almighty.

Andrew: Evan Almighty! Yeah, they do that in that too. That was funny. That was good. All right. Let’s see, who’s next here? Oh, Matt.

[“Should I Stay or Should I Go?” by the Clash starts playing]

Andrew: Made famous these days by Rock Band, “Should I Stay or Should I Go?” by the Clash.

Matt: All right. Well, Elysa did give me a little hint, and I fully…

Elysa: No, I didn’t!

Matt: …fully agree with her. Yeah, you did! Shhh!

[Andrew laughs]

Matt: Just take it! Okay. [laughs] This scene is definitely from Deathly Hallows when Ron argues with the Trio about when he skips out of town. [sings] “He’s not gonna stay, he’s gonna go.”

Andrew: [sings] “But then come back.” [imitates guitar] All right, here’s mine, that I haven’t heard yet, mind you.

[“The Boys are Back in Town” by Thin Lizzy starts playing]

Andrew: Oh, yeah. I love this song.

Matt: I love this song.

Andrew: This is my theme song. Every day of my life.

Micah: Yep.

[song continues and then fades]

Andrew: Geez…I could think of several little examples. Okay, what I can think of is when Dumbledore’s Army just goes and fights the Death Eaters during that whole scene in Order of the Phoenix. Like, I don’t know if they were “back in town” but it’s sort of just like – this is sort of like a kick-butt song.

Matt: Or you – a little more relevant to the song, how about the Order fighting them in Order of the Phoenix.

Elysa: Yeah, that’s good.

Andrew: That’s a better one. Yeah. Ah, I wish. I just wish these songs were a part of these films. It would be so amazing.

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: It would! It really would.

[Elysa laughs more]

Andrew: Oh geez.

Elysa: Matt, you are awful.

Andrew: What? [laughs]

Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul

[Chicken Soup audio plays]

Andrew: It’s a voicemail this week. It’s a Chicken Soup voicemail! She wasn’t sure if she could call it in, but of course you can! You can do anything you want.

[Audio]: Hi, this is Edith, I’m 13 from [unintelligible], New York. And I’m just calling to do a Chicken Soup. I don’t know if you can do that through the phone…

Andrew: You can.

[Audio continues]: This isn’t like one of those really sad things, but I just wanted to thank you with the end of Pickle Pack coming so soon. Pretty much [unintelligible] now. For everything and all the hard work you’ve done with Pickle Pack and with MuggleCast in general. I can’t imagine putting that much time into anything except, like, obsessing over you guys.

[Elysa laughs]

[Audio continues]: So, yeah, thank you so much, it’s been, like, a wonderful two and a half years, so, yeah. I love you! Bye!

Andrew: Aww.

Elysa: Aww!

Andrew: I thought that was sweet.

Matt: That was sweet.

Andrew: Thank you very much. Pickle Pack has ended. It’s been a year. Can hardly believe it. Pickle Pack has been around for a year.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: It’s all said and done.

Micah: I’m a slacker.

Andrew: Coming soon is Cucumber Pack.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: And it’s going to be a big hit.

Micah: That’s all yours, buddy.

[Andrew laughs and says something unintelligible]

Micah: I’m sure it would be.

Andrew: Okay, Micah, you can cut the innuendo now.

[Matt and Micah laugh]

Create Your Own Segment Winner

Andrew: All right, and finally today, it is time to announce the third place winner, the Create Your Own MuggleCast Segment contest! Correct, Matt?

Matt: Yes. Woo! We got about – well, we got a lot of entries. I don’t – I can’t even remember how many. But once again they were all very good. Thank you so much for sending them in. I had so much fun listening to every single one of your segments, and they were really good. Andrew, did you listen to some of them?

Andrew: Yeah, I listened to all of them when we were judging. Yeah, they were great. I’m never disappointed by the creativity that our listeners come up with. And I like how a lot of them use the Hedwig’s theme song. They just rip it off of our MP3 file of the show. You know, it’s nice.

Matt: Yeah, it’s not copyrighted.

Andrew: Congrats to you – right.

Matt: We’re not going to sue.

Andrew: I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it, I’m just saying it’s creative. But everyone’s very clever. It’s great.

Matt: But, alas, we only had to pick three that were the top ones. So…

Andrew: So we’re going to play the third place winner today, and then this person is going to go home with the third place prize, from the wonderful Alivan’s at They will be winning a 15 dollar gift certificate for purchasing anything at Alivan’s. Scarves, ties, wands, you name it, Alivan’s has it. So, Matt, who is the third place winner?

Matt: The winner for this week is…

[Andrew does a strange drum roll with his mouth]

Matt: Nick Bailey. He’s 13 years old, and he did this by himself. He is entirely this segment, the Wizarding Wireless Network segment. And so…

Andrew: Cool! Let’s play it now.

Matt: Let’s play it now.

Wizarding Wireless Network

Announcer: Introducing Wizarding Wireless Network-work-work…

[song plays]

Nick: All right. So, let’s jump right in here. Our first band is The Remus Lupins. All right, and so we’re going to play a song, which is the title song of their album: “I Was a Teenage Werewolf.”

[“I Was a Teenage Werewolf” by the Remus Lupins plays]

Nick: Our second song: “Fate of Severus Snape,” is also by The Remus Lupins.

[“Fate of the Severus Snape” by the Remus Lupins plays]

Nick: The Remus Lupins do some really great Wizard Rock. They are just one of my absolute favorite bands. When I was doing research for this segment, I bought a ton of their music. So, let’s see them off with the “Wizarding World at War.”

[“The Wizarding World at War” by the Remus Lupins plays]

Nick: Our next band featured is The Whomping Willows. The one man band. All right. Up first, the song, in which Harry and Draco secretly want to make out. Just so you know, I don’t support that. It’s just at the top of the list so I thought I’d better play it.

[Song plays]

Nick: Up next, “Cedric had it Coming,” once again by Whomping.

[“Cedric had it Coming” by the Whomping Willows” plays]

Nick: And, to see The Whomping Willows off, “Wizard Rock Heartthrob.”

[“Wizard Rock Heartthrob” by the Whomping Willows plays]

Nick: Alrighty. Up next, the one, the only, Harry and the Potters! And I picked the first song especially for Andrew. Presenting, “Voldemort Can’t Stop the Rock”.

[“Voldemort Can’t Stop the Rock” by Harry and the Potters plays]

Nick: Up next, one of my personal favorites by Harry and the Potters – “SPEW”!

[“SPEW” by Harry and the Potters plays]

Nick: Alrighty. We’d like to thank all the bands we had on today. We are approaching out time limit, so we are going to wrap the show up. All right, so if you would like to send any comments or questions to us please e-mail us at mugglecastwwn at gmail dot com. Yes. That’s mugglecastwwn, for Wizarding Wireless Network, at gmail dot com. All right. Now let’s wrap it up with hosts’ favorites [echoes] – alrighty – that didn’t really work. But anyway, this is my personal favorite, “The Wizard Rock Twist” by the Remus Lupins.

[“The Wizard Rock Twist” by the Remus Lupins plays]

Nick: I’m Nick Bailey. Good night, everybody.

Wizard Rock on MuggleCast

Andrew: All right. Good job, Nick Bailey. He did that all on his own. I thought that was good because a lot of people have been asking for some Wizard Rock music on the show, and Nick did it for us.

Matt: Mhm. It was really nice. I’m surprised we don’t do that. Why don’t we do that on the show?

Andrew: Honestly, about a year ago, a year and a half ago, I had a segment in the works called Mugglecast Jukebox. And I wanted – each week, I wanted to have – or – you know, whatever we could – I wanted to have an interview with a Wizard Rock band on the show, then play like a song or two, but – I don’t know. The amount of the production that would – that would require is a little – it was a little too much at the time – time wise.

Matt: But…

Andrew: It was a little too much time…

Matt: Congratulations, Nick, for winning third place.

Andrew: Again, he’ll be winning a 15 dollar gift card from

Matt: Woo. Okay.

Andrew: He can pick a wand, a robe, whatever he wants. Just make sure it’s fifteen – worth fifteen dollars. Or you could put fifteen dollars towards your purchase as well.

Matt: Yeah, you can do whatever you want. It’s your gift card.

Andrew: So next week, what’s happening?

Matt: Next week we are going to be announcing the second place winner, which I can’t announce yet, can I?

[Show close music begins]

Contact Information

Andrew: No, we’ll make people wait. But anyway, that does wrap up our show for today. We want to remind everyone about our contact information. Micah, what’s the P.O. Box?

Micah: The P.O. Box is P.O Box 3151, Cumming, Georgia 30028.

Andrew: Hey, we’re looking for your voicemail questions, so remember, if you are in the United States you can dial 1-2-1-8-20-MAGIC. If you are in the United Kingdom you can dial 02081440677, and if you’re in Australia you can dial 0280035668. You can also Skype the username MuggleCast. Just remember that no matter how you call us, just remember to keep your message under 60 seconds and eliminate as much background noise as possible. You can also use to contact us via the handy feedback form, or use any one of our first names at staff dot mugglenet dot com. You can also visit for a variety of community outlet links including our MySpace, our Frappr, our YouTube Frap – what is going on with me today?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Our MySpace, Facebook, YouTube, Frappr, Last.FM, and the fanlisting and the forums. You can also Digg the show at and vote for us once a month at Podcast Alley.

Matt: Yeah!

Show Close

Andrew: So I think that does it. We had six people at the beginning of the show. We ended up with four.

Matt: Ah.

Andrew: So you guys survived it all. Thank you.

Micah: Fantastic.

Matt: Great job, guys!

Andrew: The Fantastic Four.

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: The Mugglecast Quartet.

[Andrew and Matt laugh]

Micah: No, I like the Fantastic Four better.

[Andrew laughs]

Elysa and Matt: Yeah.

Matt: That’s right, because of my rock hard body.

[Elysa laughs]

Andrew: So that wraps up our show for today. Normally, right here I would say apologies to J.K. Rowling that – but we’re out of time, but Matt thinks that – that’s not cool for me to say that. So I’m Andrew Sims.

Micah: I’m Micah Tannenbaum.

Matt: I’m – I’m Matthew Britton.

Elysa: [laughs] And I’m Elysa Montfort.

Andrew: We’ll see everyone next week for Episode 144. Buh-bye!

Matt: Bye!

Micah: Bye.

[Music ends]