Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #396, “Aurelius Dumbledore Theories”
Show Intro
[Show music plays]
Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast Episode 396. I’m Andrew.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.
Andrew: And we have one of our Slug Club members on the show this week. Hi, Jemima. [in a bad Australian accent] Down un-duh in Australia. Hello!
Jemima: Hi, that’s a terrible accent, but hello.
Andrew: I deserve that criticism. Thank you.
[Jemima laughs]
Andrew: Thank you for staying up late to speak with us. We understand it’s 1:00 a.m. there now in Sydney.
Jemima: It is, yeah. 1:00 a.m. Sunday morning.
Andrew: Well, we appreciate you staying up late. You write for BuzzFeed, is that right?
Jemima: Yeah, I do. I work for Buzzfeed Australia.
Andrew: Very cool. What kind of stuff do you do for them?
Jemima: So I’m the lifestyle editor, so it’s mainly food and travel and health and that sort of stuff, but we’re a pretty small team, so it can cover entertainment and celebrity and all that sort of stuff as well, which is what I’m pretty interested in.
Andrew: Cool. Very cool. And you obviously are a big fan of Harry Potter. Do you ever write Harry Potter stuff for them?
Jemima: I do, yeah. There’s a couple people in the company who it’s like, when something big Harry Potter happens, it’s like, “Oh, we’re the people who’re going to write it up.”
[Andrew laughs]
Jemima: So yeah, I’m the Harry Potter correspondent for the Australian office.
Andrew: Yeah. Even online media outlets aside, I hear from people who are like, “Yeah, I’m the designated Harry Potter fan in the office.” Even if it’s not work-related, people just go to a certain person for Harry Potter info, you know?
Eric: Well, Micah is that at his office, aren’t you, Micah? You were saying before the show, somebody was asking you if that History of Magic exhibit is family-friendly.
Andrew: [laughs] Oh, right.
Micah: Yeah, literally, I got a text just before we sat down to record with a link to the exhibit here in New York, asking me, one, if I had gone yet, which I haven’t. I’m planning on going.
Eric: Tsk, tsk.
Micah: But two, is it kid-friendly? So yeah, get a lot of questions like that.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: The short answer we decided is no, it’s not kid-friendly.
Eric: Right. Well, it’s not like… they don’t go out of their way to make it for children-children.
Micah: Exactly, exactly.
Andrew: So Jemima, let’s get your fandom ID. In one breath, please give us your favorite book, movie, Hogwarts House, Ilvermorny House, Patronus, and what is your favorite line from Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald?
Jemima: Okay, favorite book is Order of the Phoenix. Favorite movie is Prisoner of Azkaban. Even though I think it’s a terrible adaptation, I think it’s a great movie. Hogwarts House is Ravenclaw; Ilvermony House is Horned Serpent. My Patronus is a horse, but just a horse; no explanation on its breed or anything, just a horse.
[Eric laughs]
Jemima: And Fantastic Beasts line… honestly, I saw it once, and it was three weeks ago, so I can’t think of a specific line.
Andrew: Okay. Yeah, I would want my money back on that Patronus answer if I were you.
Jemima: Yeah, right? What am I meant to do with that?
Andrew: [laughs] Just a horse? It’s not one you can Google, because you know what a horse is.
Eric: I can’t believe that’s an option.
Jemima: [laughs] Right?
Micah: Isn’t there one in the films, though? Order of the Phoenix, don’t we see a horse Patronus?
Andrew: But is it just a horse? Or is it a special horse?
Eric: I think it might be the ghost horse that we see, and that’s in Prisoner of Azkaban. Jemima’s favorite movie.
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: But yeah, the horses… there’s 15 different breeds of horses – marsh hair, different styles – and you just got horse.
Andrew: Oh, I know. I’m playing Red Dead Redemption; I see all the horses. But what did you think of Crimes of Grindelwald, Jemima?
Jemima: Okay, so I feel like I’ve gone back and forth on what I think about it, from loving it to hating it. And I think I’ve settled on I enjoyed it, and in theory I like everything, but I feel like in practice it didn’t really work out well on screen.
Andrew: Okay.
Jemima: I just think there was way too much crammed into it. And I understand that it’s only the second movie in five, so we’re not going to have all the answers, but it just sort of seems like way too much was trying to happen. I feel like it would be way better as a series or something. If this has to be on screen and it can’t be a book, I feel like a HBO series would be a much better way of getting this across.
Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that, because J.K. Rowling just needed more time, right? So we’re going to talk about some theories today that our listeners have had regarding the film, and we also have more voicemails.
News
Andrew: But first, some news. And speaking of Crimes of Grindelwald, it didn’t do well in its second weekend at the domestic box office. It dropped to fourth place. It was a 52.7% drop in revenue between week one and two; it’s a pretty bad drop, you guys. That’s not good. And I’ve seen some movie critics on Twitter being like, “They have to seriously rethink the promotional strategy for the next movie.” I don’t think it’s worrying, though. Did I mention this last week? I had one friend over – Eric, our mutual friend Andrew – who thought they might remove a movie from this series, but I don’t think anything’s really going to change other than the promotional stuff. I’ll tell you one thing they can remove: They were doing these YouTuber promotions. I don’t think that’s working out for them.
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: Maybe they should move on to something else. How about let the podcasters promote it?
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: There you go.
Andrew: We’ll save the day.
Micah: Why not? Yeah, let us. We’ve got experience; we’ve been doing this 13 years, longer than Fantastic Beasts has been around.
Eric: You guys, we’re not influencers. Nothing we say matters to people who are going to go see this film.
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Andrew: We’re not influencers, you’re right. We’re just podcasters. We don’t have Instagrams; we’re not attractive enough to get the likes on Instagram…
Eric: That is a good point, though. And not to just shit all over influencers, but yeah, they had a whole team of those people, not only the first go around, which was concerning, but the second one, there was twice as many people. Everybody met JKR, everybody went to the set, and what good is it? This film is tanking. It’s $40 million domestically behind where the first film was at the same time 14 days in. So what are you going to do?
Micah: I’m a bit surprised, though – and I know we talked about this – but the fact that you had Dumbledore as a focal point of this film; he really wasn’t in it a lot, but the marketing material promoted him. You had Nagini, you had ties back to the Potter series, you were going to Hogwarts for the first time in years, so it’s a little bit surprising that it didn’t even hit the mark that it was anticipated to, but I think some of that could have to do with Johnny Depp and the fact that his character is in the title of the film. I think some of that also could just do with the time of the year. I don’t know that November is the best time to release these films; I think they probably could do a little bit better if they released in the summertime. They may be up against some more notable titles, but I just think people are used to seeing Potter in the summertime.
Andrew: Yeah. It does invoke nostalgia, doesn’t it? Because the books always came out in the summer, or at least the later ones did.
Micah: It does. I mean, I remember us going to, what was it, the Goblet of Fire premiere when it was released here in New York City; that was in November, but I’d be interested to look back at all the release dates of the films and to see how they performed. There is nostalgia, definitely with the books, as you mentioned, being in the summertime, but they have to try something, because they can’t have another showing like this and hope to continue beyond a third movie, in my opinion.
Eric: Well, they can just try making a movie that makes sense and is not closed off to even hardcore Harry Potter fans, let alone general audiences. If they just took out half the subplots in this movie, it would be a fine movie. I don’t care which half, any half; you take out four or five subplots…
Micah: But Eric, the problem is you’re not even getting people to the theater, though. You have to figure out how to put butts in the seats. We were talking about having gone to those AMC fan events, and nobody was in the theater.
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: They were pretty empty.
Micah: That would never happen for one of the Potter movies.
Eric: Well, the marketing material was all for all of these characters, all on one poster, and all of these characters maybe get five minutes a piece of screen time to them. It’s just packed; it’s overcrowded. It seemed maybe like a mess to people, I would guess. But I mean, for me, November is Harry Potter movie month. Five out of the eight original films and Fantastic Beasts debuted in the fall, and it would be a shame to see the series move. All I’m trying to say is if their only solution to making these films more financially successful is to move them to the summer, that’s cheap, right?
Andrew: That’s true. It’s not… that won’t fix everything, will it? What do you think, Jemima?
Jemima: I think before the films came out, there were just quite a lot of negative reviews, and I think that’s probably definitely one of the factors in the bad ticket sales. I know multiple people who are casual Harry Potter fans who haven’t gone to see this movie just based off of the reviews.
Andrew: Yeah. I selfishly want them to move it to summer 2020, because I feel like they owe it to us after that cliffhanger to give us the movie a little sooner than we’re expecting. [laughs] We’re currently expecting November 2020; I know they carved out that date for the third movie, but I don’t think that… they could very easily move it up, especially if this movie, Fantastic Beasts 3, is going to start filming in a few months. So give it to us sooner; I think that’ll make fans happy, because then it’ll be like, “Oh, we don’t have to wait as long to find out more about this Aurelius Dumbledore twist,” and they also have the benefit of a summer movie release.
Micah: Agreed. I would say, too, it’s just surprising, though, that they didn’t do more on the marketing side that would drum up that nostalgia. Us sitting here talking about it, we’re obviously going to dive into every little detail, but I feel like they could have done a little bit more, and I think that begs the question, who are they trying to get to come to see this film? Is it the Potter fans who grew up with the series, or are they trying to hit a new audience? Because if you look at the movies that it was up against when it was released, or just after that, it was going up against a kids’ movie in Ralph Breaks the Internet, and Creed. I don’t know that they’re necessarily the same audience for Crimes of Grindelwald, but people are going to… or Creed II. You’re going to probably want to go see that next Rocky movie. I don’t know. But I’m just thinking that they need to rethink their marketing strategy for whatever the third film is going to be.
Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that.
Micah: I do have an update. I looked up who had the horse Patronus in Order of the Phoenix, just so you’re in good company, Jemima: Ginny Weasley.
Jemima: Okay, I’ll take that.
Eric: Oh, wow.
Andrew: That’s cool.
Jemima: That sounds good.
Micah: And speaking of Patronuses, I saw J.K. Rowling tweet earlier this week that she had some random bird that landed right outside her window while she was writing, and she had no idea what it was, and I take offense to that, because it turned out, I think, it was a sparrowhawk, and the sparrowhawk is my Patronus.
[Jemima laughs]
Andrew: Oh, Micah, I’m so sorry.
Eric: It’s so forgettable.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: We’re going to have to work this out when she finally comes on the show.
Eric: It’s undistinguished. Is that what…? You sent your Patronus to get answers from her for this movie?
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: Well, to spy on her, clearly, Eric, but she caught me.
Eric: It’s okay, J.K. Rowling fed my Patronus to the trio in Book 1. It’s a stoat, and they eat stoat sandwiches, so I’m not happy about that either.
Jemima: Oh, great.
Andrew: If it makes you guys feel better, I doubt she sat down and wrote out all these creatures. It may have just been Pottermore’s team.
[Eric laughs]
Jemima: Yeah, definitely.
Andrew: She should have had a… they need to add a office desk to the Patronus test now, and a white cloth.
Eric: [laughs] That’s a boggart, though, but I love it. I love the idea.
Andrew: Oh, boggart. I’m sorry. What am I thinking? Yeah.
Eric: Ugh, I want an office desk.
Micah: You need a boggart test, then, no?
Andrew: Yeah, right. We need a boggart test, right.
Eric: Oh my God.
Andrew: Anyway, let’s talk about one other news story. This broke right before the movie came out, so we didn’t get to it until now. We’ve spoken about this Pokémon Go-style Harry Potter game called Harry Potter: Wizards Unite, and they released the first teaser trailer for it just before the movie came out, like I said. It’s now coming in 2019, which is not really a surprise, because we haven’t heard any news about it until in mid-November. Have you guys watched this trailer? It shows a girl who’s out and about, and she encounters a Snitch, and she grabs it and collects it. And the website is interesting; it says that “The Ministry is looking for witches and wizards willing to roll up their sleeves and volunteer to save the wizarding world from the Calamity. As a member of the Statute of Secrecy Task Force, you will hone lightning-fast wand reflexes, an ability to sniff out the faintest whiff of a magical disorder from afar, and proficiency in advanced casting of multiple spells.” So it sounds like there’s been a breakout of magic across the world, and it’s up to us to collect all the objects to hide everything from the Muggles. Kind of interesting.
Micah: Did you enlist on the website, Andrew?
Andrew: I did. Did you?
Micah: Not yet.
Andrew: Okay. Well, sign up. Don’t you want to help contain the Calamity? A risk the worst of time since You-Know-Who? According to the website.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Well, which You-Know-Who?
Andrew: I think Voldemort.
Micah: Oh.
Andrew: This is a post-Harry Potter world.
Eric: It looks very modern. I do like the idea that in the trailer she casts sort of a Stupefy – or what’s the one where the pixies stop moving? – right before catching the Snitch. She’s just like, “Here you go.” I hope that’s an option, much like it is in Pokémon catching, to bait or somehow help you give yourself an advantage to catching these items.
Andrew: Yeah. So I, like many others, was a big fan of Pokémon Go, for a few months anyway. So I’m really excited about this. I think this is going to be a big deal.
Micah: Do you not still play Pokémon Go?
Andrew: No.
Micah: Really?
Andrew: I play Pokémon: Let’s Go, Pikachu! for Nintendo Switch.
[Eric laughs]
Micah: Oh. Well, if you decide to start up, we can be friends.
Andrew: Okay. I mean, I still have…
Micah: I can send you gifts now, you know that?
Andrew: Yes.
Micah: We can trade Pokémon. It’s great.
Andrew: Yes, I know. They’ve been making advancements. They actually just announced yesterday that battling is finally coming, so maybe I’ll get back into it.
Micah: You should.
Andrew: I don’t… I hope the Harry Potter one is more than just collecting magical objects. They should definitely include beasts in this game as well.
Eric: So this isn’t the one set in the 1800s, clearly.
Andrew: No.
Eric: What is that game called? Because there was…
Andrew: That was just a leak. We don’t know what that is yet.
Eric: Oh, right. Okay. All right.
Micah: See, now, we talked a little bit before about promotional opportunities. You have the tie, right, with Niantic, between Potter and Pokémon, right? So around the release of Fantastic Beasts, what if you just included some beasts in Pokémon Go, and you could advertise the movie that way to millions of kids around the world who play that game every single day?
Andrew: Oh, stop it. You know how many Pokémon fans would be pissed that Harry Potter creatures were coming into Pokémon?
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: I would be pissed.
Micah: It’s for a limited time only.
Andrew: [laughs] That would ruin the…
Micah: I think it’s a great marketing idea. If anybody’s listening, I think they should do it. They would get that movie in front of way more kids than it’s in front of right now.
Andrew: That’s as good of an idea as it was to make Sprint stores official Pokémon Go locations. Anyway, so it is the holiday season right now. This is our first episode of December. And earlier this week, I spoke to Lora Sauls, the Manager of Entertainment Creative Development at Universal Orlando, to learn about what’s going on at the Wizarding World of Harry Potter during Christmastime. And we spoke over the phone, and here is that interview.
Interview with Lora Sauls
Andrew: Hi, Lora. How you doing?
Lora Sauls: I’m great. How are you?
Andrew: Great, thank you very much. Thanks for joining us on MuggleCast.
Lora: Awesome, thank you very much. I’m excited.
Andrew: Yeah, so it’s Christmas again at Universal Orlando, including within the Wizarding World. Can you give us an overview of what’s going on there, and what might be new or different?
Lora: Well, we’re very excited for this holiday season here at Universal Orlando, especially the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, and how magically that all of those properties get changed over with Christmas. And the Magic of Christmas at Hogwarts Castle is definitely a must-see; it happens after the night falls in Hogsmeade. And then all of the beautiful, magical decorations in Hogsmeade as well. One of my favorites is the hot butterbeer, so that’s definitely something that we can’t miss this year. But of course, we’ve got holiday decorations in London and Diagon Alley, and all kinds of fun new music, new holiday music in the Frog Choir show. Celestina has got her new Christmas show that happens over in Diagon Alley. So we’re just really excited to celebrate, again, the Christmas season in our Wizarding World of Harry Potter.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. So you said “new”; do you mean new as of last year, or were there some changes in terms of the songs this year?
Lora: No, last year we pretty much opened all of these amazing holiday shows for our guests, and one of the biggest things for us is to build that tradition; that’s the new thing for us this year, is to build tradition. We want people to return to see these things and make all of these new holiday elements a tradition for them and their families.
Andrew: Yeah. So now that you’ve had a solid season under your belt regarding the Wizarding World, Christmas in the Wizarding World, what are the elements during Christmas that you’ve learned people love most?
Lora: I mean, honestly, when I walk over there, it’s awe-inspiring, the decor. The decor is magical within itself, so I think people like that changeover from seeing Hogsmeade to what it was to seeing Hogsmeade dressed for the holidays. I think it’s the same in Diagon Alley and in London. For me, I think the guests are blown away by the Magic of Christmas at Hogwarts Castle. For me, it’s a very special show. The first time I saw it last year, I teared up a little bit. [laughs] It’s just beautiful. And it’s, again, that thing that we’re building a tradition that you want to bring your kids to, that you want to come to every holiday season. It’s a must-see that you come back to it.
Andrew: Absolutely. I had a question about the songs that are performed in both lands; they’re definitely one of my favorite parts of what you guys have going on during Christmas. How were those initially chosen and developed? Because especially with the songs over in Diagon Alley, I mean, those are completely original songs that we’d never heard before.
Lora: Right, right. For our Celestina show, that’s one of the cool shows that we get to develop with our partners in WB, and J.K. Rowling’s group. We get to develop those together, and we have amazing composers that we bring in, that we brought in for the first version of the Celestina show, that we bring in to compose those songs, but again, making sure we’re in line with everything that J.K. started, right? And Celestina’s whole… her canon, so that’s an awesome opportunity that we get to create those songs for Celestina. And the cast just loves performing them. It’s her own little Christmas special.
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, the songs are so catchy too. It’s insane. [laughs] I was so blown away by them the first time I heard them.
Lora: That’s awesome. Yay!
Andrew: You had mentioned the holiday decor taking over both of the lands. There’s lots of garland in particular, I noticed, and the garland designs, they’re unique to each shop…
Lora: Totally.
Andrew: … which makes it seem like it was put together by the fictional shop owners. Was that the goal? How did you design those?
Lora: Totally. Again, we worked hand in hand with our partners, making sure that every piece of garland had that magical flair of the shop that it’s in front of, had the storyline or the characteristics of the shop that it garnishes, so every step of the way, every little piece in the garland, it was a collaboration between Universal and our partners at Harry Potter.
Andrew: There’s one shop with the Golden Snitch in the garland – I think it’s in Hogsmeade – and it’s my favorite. It’s just perfect. [laughs] I need it for my own place.
Lora: Yes. [laughs]
Andrew: You had also mentioned the hot butterbeer. I don’t know if you have info to back this up, but does hot butterbeer become the most popular butterbeer during the winter months?
Lora: I don’t know. I think it is. That’s my personal opinion. I like frozen butterbeer in the summer, and I like hot butterbeer this holiday season. Those are my two favorites; that’s what I always personally recommend, so it’s definitely something that I must have every holiday season. Again, it’s a tradition now for me.
Andrew: Absolutely.
Lora: As soon as we open the holidays, to go out there and get a first hot butterbeer. As well as during the summer months, I like to go to Hogsmeade and see all the snow, and wish it was cold. [laughs]
Andrew: Right, exactly. [laughs] There are some holiday food options there too? Is that right?
Lora: Sure, sure. We have a holiday feast that you can bring your family to and share in that together, and I’m sure you’ll find all of the traditional things that we have over in Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley that you can have all year long.
Andrew: Right. There’s also a lot of fantastic Christmas Wizarding World merchandise as well. What are the most popular items there? I have a stocking and an ornament that I just recently put up, and I absolutely love them, and what I love about them is that they’re actually unique to the theme park. I can’t seem to find these anywhere else other than at Universal.
Lora: Totally. I mean, Universal does have some one of a kind Wizarding World merchandise, and the holiday season is no different with the ornaments that we have available. I have a few on my tree, I know, from the very first year we opened the Wizarding World.
Andrew: And so what else is going on at Universal Orlando? There’s obviously some other stuff happening during Christmastime outside of the Wizarding World.
Lora: Well, again, we’re building those traditions. We want people to come back, bring their kids; when the kids grow up, we want them to bring their kids. We’re building a tradition with, of course, our Grinchmas Who-liday Spectacular in Islands of Adventure, where as soon as you enter Islands of Adventure, you’ll see Whos singing and decorating all through Seuss Island, as well as you can visit the Grinch in a store over there and have a one-on-one meet and greet with him, or you could come early and have a breakfast with the Whos, as well as our musical spectacular show, where we tell the classic story of How the Grinch Stole Christmas within a musical realm, so you’ll get the beginning, middle, and end. You’ll see his heart grow three sizes, and you’ll feel him bring back the Christmas to the Whos. So that’s happening over at Islands of Adventure, right next door to the Wizarding World. And then at Universal Studios, we have our holiday parade featuring Macy’s; it was brand new to the studios last year, and we’re bringing that back again to build on tradition. That holiday parade features all our fun characters, like Minions, Gru and Lucy, the Madagascar group, and our Shrek family, and of course, we end that parade with the man himself, Santa Claus. He ends the parade, he makes all of Universal Snow, and he lights the beautiful tree in our New York area.
Andrew: That’s fantastic. So when are all the holiday events running till?
Lora: We run till January 6, so you have plenty of time to get down here and enjoy the holidays at Universal. So yeah, every one of our holiday offerings will run through January 6.
Andrew: Right. And you’ve got to get the hot butterbeer while it’s hot. I mean, that’s what I want to go for. [laughs]
Lora: You have to. And today here in sunny Orlando, it is a high of 55; it’s the perfect day to get your hot butterbeer. [laughs]
Andrew: It absolutely is. I’ve seen Floridians freaking out about the colder temperatures, so I’m sure they’re all cozying up with the hot butterbeer. Awesome. So we’ll go to UniversalOrlando.com to learn more, buy tickets, and see everything you have to offer.
Lora: Totally.
Andrew: Thank you so much, Lora.
Lora: Oh my gosh, thank you. Happy holidays!
Andrew: Thanks, you too.
Lora: Bye.
Aurelius Dumbledore theories
Andrew: Okay, so now it is time to discuss some Crimes of Grindelwald theories that we have. We wanted to focus on Aurelius Dumbledore. We have a few explanations – potential explanations – for Aurelius, and then we have some other theories as well. We got these from our Patreon supporters. Who wants to lead this? Micah? Eric?
Micah: Yeah, I’ll try. I don’t know how far I’ll get, but we’ll see.
Andrew: [laughs] Host challenge: Can you make sense?
Eric: God, I hope you make it. I hope you make it through. [laughs]
Micah: Yes, I hope so too. I hope so too. But no, I’m just saying, there’s so many different directions that this discussion can go off in, but as you mentioned, Andrew, I think that just given that cliffhanger at the end of the film, we want to talk more about Aurelius Dumbledore, and we’re going to dedicate pretty much this entire episode to him. And one of the main theories that we’ve seen out there following the film is that Ariana’s Obscurus is actually attached to/living within Credence. And I pulled a quote from the script book from Grindelwald at the end of the film, and it seems a little bit vague who he could be talking to. He says, “You have suffered the most heinous of betrayals, most purposely bestowed upon you by your own blood. Your own flesh and blood. And just as he has celebrated your torment, your brother seeks to destroy you.” And so I wanted to throw the question out there: Could this be Grindelwald talking directly to the Obscurus as opposed to talking to Credence?
Andrew: So with the first half of that sentence, yes. “The most heinous of betrayals, most purposely bestowed upon you.” But then with the second sentence, I wouldn’t really think so. “And just as he has celebrated your torment”? Dumbledore didn’t celebrate Ariana’s torment.
Eric: I think the question, the part, the angle of this theory that I’ve seen is that because Dumbledore has that line on the bus with Newt about if a brother or sister exists for Credence, they would be able to somehow take the place of the Obscurus, or remove… the idea that Ariana and Credence were brother/sister, maybe the Obscurus was transferred into Credence. Maybe Dumbledore oversaw that or something, and then that would shed light on why Dumbledore is said to be celebrating the torment, because he saved Ariana, but we know Ariana didn’t make it, so I don’t think it necessarily tracks.
Andrew: What do you think, Jemima?
Jemima: Yeah, I find this all extremely confusing, but I kind of… I really do like this theory, as in somehow Ariana’s Obscurus got into Credence. No idea how it would have happened, but it does kind of connect some of the dots here, I think.
Andrew: It wouldn’t surprise me if J.K. Rowling was doing some wordplay here with this particular line. Maybe Grindelwald is talking to both Credence and Ariana within him, so that first sentence he’s talking to Ariana, and then the second sentence, somehow he’s talking about Aurelius. Could Albus have possibly been happy that Aurelius died on the boat? I mean, we assumed that Aurelius died, right? Because if the baby wasn’t switched, he would have died. So maybe Albus was somehow happy? But that doesn’t make sense.
Micah: So you’re thinking that possibly the shipwreck was like a hit on his life?
Andrew: No, I’m not saying it was a hit. I’m not saying it was a hit. I’m just saying…
Micah: It could be, though. We don’t know.
Eric: Somebody hired the iceberg beast to go and crash that ship, I’m telling you.
[Everyone laughs]
Andrew: Dumbledore did. “You know what? I don’t want a younger brother. Go and kill him.”
Micah: Well, also, the second part of that statement could just be Grindelwald lying, when he’s talking about the fact that his brother has celebrated his torment and seeks to destroy him.
Eric and Jemima: Yeah.
Andrew: True.
Jemima: I think that might be Grindelwald trying to get Credence, or whoever he is, to fight against Dumbledore. I think that’s him trying to rile him up and be like, “Hey, Dumbledore has treated you really badly; maybe you should go kill him.”
Andrew: That’s a great point.
Eric: The other thing that I’m trying to wrap my head around is I think a lot of these theories that have Credence with Ariana’s Obscurus also are the way they are so that Credence doesn’t have to be an actual blood brother of Albus Dumbledore, because it ticks a couple boxes if he just has Ariana’s Obscurus. He doesn’t need to be this third Dumbledore brother, this fourth sibling, because he’s still connected to the Dumbledores in much the same way if he has Ariana’s Obscurus inside him. So I think… I used to see theories when this film first came out about them being connected through the Obscurus versus actually being related, but now this theory, and I think some of these others we’re going to get to, have to do with both… not only are they real brother and sister, but he’s also got her Obscurus, and I don’t know that that necessarily works for me.
Micah: But where would that latching-on have occurred? That’s my question, is let’s say Credence isn’t a direct relation to the Dumbledores. We’re presuming that Ariana is killed in the battle between Dumbledore and Grindelwald earlier on, but something would have had to have happened… Credence would have had to have been very, very close to this scene when it happened for the Obscurus to attach itself to him.
Jemima: Well, we know that in the first movie how Newt had the Obscurus that he had just detached from the girl in Africa or wherever it was, and so we know that they can live on their own without a host in a little bubble, so it’s like maybe the Obscurus was extracted from Ariana and then kept under wraps or whatever by Dumbledore and Grindelwald, and then somehow it escaped and latched onto Credence. I don’t know.
Eric: I think it would have killed Credence, if not intentionally, by mistake. I mean, it’s a massive, massive magical… this is the reason that children don’t live past 11 or 12 when they… or not 11 or 12, but they don’t live very long, not as long as Credence does with the Obscurus, because it’s so powerful and it destroys them. So I don’t think an inexperienced child Credence would have been able to handle… even though he’s a Dumbledore, and their blood is stronger than others or whatever. It’s sort of like a Star Wars Skywalker thing going on right here. But it just kind of, for me, doesn’t work. I think it’s perfectly explainable that Credence’s Obscurus developed because he was in this shitty orphanage where they didn’t allow magic. I think it makes perfect sense that he would just develop an Obscurus of his own. If he didn’t, I don’t know how Ariana’s Obscurus found him, and I don’t think it would have been very gentle with him, because it’s this destructive force.
Andrew: Yeah, this is a good point. I mean, Movie 1 really taught us that Credence developed an Obscurus on his own. We shouldn’t forget that when debating whether Ariana’s Obscurus lives on inside Credence, unless Obscuruses can merge.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I’m picturing the Harry/Voldemort face meld.
[Andrew and Jemima laugh]
Andrew: Yeah. Oh, God. Oh, God. Please don’t do that again, David Yates. [laughs]
Micah: I think that leads well, though, into the next point here, where Dumbledore is talking… thinking back to Movie 1, and the fact that Grindelwald goes to New York as Graves to try and track down this Obscurus, Dumbledore at the same time has sent Newt there under false pretenses, as we learn in this movie. So clearly they’re both trying to track down the same person, the same Obscurus. So that’s why I’m a little bit wary of what he says to Newt. He says, “Wherever Credence is in Paris, he’s either in danger or a danger to others. We may not know who he is yet, but he needs to be found.” Now, is this classic lying Dumbledore, thinking back to all the BS he threw Harry’s way, where he knows more than he’s leading on?
Jemima: Yeah, I think so. I think that’s… you can’t have a movie with Dumbledore in it without him playing us.
Eric: Well, this is also sort of… I think I saw a comment over the last week – it was an interview with David Heyman – but this is Dumbledore becoming that guy who eventually has to lie to Harry all the time. So maybe he is not being completely manipulative or lying… I don’t know. I want to believe in Jude Law’s Dumbledore, that he’s at least maybe partially telling the truth? Or not lying constantly. If he’s lying his face off, then that’s fine, but there’s also not much room for him to grow into that character that lies his face off. [laughs]
Andrew and Micah: Yeah.
Micah: But he explicitly says, “We may not know who he is yet, but he needs to be found.”
Eric: But does the movie give you any indication that Dumbledore does in fact know who Credence is? Because I know Grindelwald suggests it, or Grindelwald could be lying.
Andrew: No, not really. To me, this could also be Dumbledore just realizing that in this moment he doesn’t have time to explain this whole situation to Newt, because they are kind of on the run in the scene. They’re avoiding people noticing him; he brings down that fog. So he just doesn’t have time to explain it all, and I think from a movie-goer perspective, it makes sense that J.K. Rowling isn’t ready to dump all this info on us.
Micah: But there’s no way that Dumbledore doesn’t know that he has a brother, right? And Grindelwald does? That just… to me, that’s way too much of a stretch.
Andrew: I agree.
Eric: Well, I think Grindelwald could be making it up. The thing with Dumbledore and Leta, the very lovely scene in this movie, didn’t mention a brother at all; he talked about losing a sister. Maybe that was all he had. Well, here’s a comment on Patreon, people listening live, from Katy Haile. She says, interestingly, “I’m not even 100% certain that Ariana had an Obscurus anymore. Jo never actually stated that. We’re assuming it based on tweet likes.”
Andrew: It’s true, but it makes sense. This is somebody who had to suppress her magic, and we know that Fantastic Beasts is a story about Dumbledore and Grindelwald, and why did Dumbledore and Grindelwald fight? I mean, a lot of this comes down to Ariana, and I think J.K. Rowling would be missing a huge opportunity if Ariana was not an Obscurus. But yes, Katy is right; we’re only thinking that this could be legit because of the fact that J.K. Rowling had liked a tweet when somebody was like, “Is Ariana an Obscurus?”
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: And Eric, we also had another comment from Jessa Hay.
Eric: Yeah, this is going directly about what we were talking about regarding Grindelwald and Dumbledore.
“If Grindelwald knew about Ariana’s Obscurus being in Credence from the battle between him and Dumbledore where Ariana died, he may have been interested in finding the Obscurus again. This would make Credence not an actual Dumbledore per se, but Grindelwald views him as a Dumbledore because of the same Obscurus that was in Ariana. Credit to Dylan Kickman from Elite Daily.”
So other people are talking about Credence, not a brother, but the Obscurus is Ariana, so he’s kind of like a Dumbledore.
Andrew: [in a stoner voice] “Hey, man, when you’ve got an Obscurus, it’s a brotherhood, you know?”
[Eric and Jemima laugh]
Andrew: “You’re part of the club. You’re part of the group of people who get it.”
Micah: Yeah, Dobby.
Eric: It’s just what I didn’t include in the doc here, but there are plenty of people screaming about how the math and the timeline does not add up, and Kendra Dumbledore was… I think there were eight years difference between when her husband was jailed and when she would have given birth to Credence, and Ariana herself would have been way older than Credence and younger than Albus and things. This whole McGonagall thing that’s going on in the movie makes me lose confidence that any dates in this film are actionable and that we can actually use dates to inform our theories, so I’m just lost when it comes to… could Ariana have even been Credence’s mother or sister? I don’t know how it all works.
Andrew: I’ve been thinking about something, and I want everyone’s opinion on this. When we were reading the Harry Potter books, we obviously had a lot of questions about where the story was going to go. Were we confused, or were we just in the dark about what’s happening in the future? Because is the problem that we have forgotten what it’s like to speculate over J.K. Rowling’s wizarding world?
Eric: No.
Jemima: No, I think it’s different.
Andrew: I don’t know. I’m going to disagree.
Micah: Really?
Andrew: I think… we were asking these same types of questions before the final book came out. We had a lot of questions, and I think once the movie series is complete, we’re going to look back on this movie and be like, “Oh, okay. This happened to lead to that.” I just don’t think it’ll be this bad once we see the full series. [laughs]
Micah: The key difference, though, is you had actual text to reference. When you’re looking at Deathly Hallows and thinking about what’s going to happen and theorizing, you have six books of material to base it on. With these films, you don’t have an entire story to look back on to be able to theorize about and to be able to provide a little bit more context to what’s going on. I think that’s the biggest difference. That said, if we would have started this podcast right around the time Sorcerer’s Stone was released, then yeah, maybe we would be in a little bit of a similar situation.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: However, I think it’s all about the writing, and J.K. Rowling does an amazing job in writing the Potter series and leaving clues along the way. I think it’s similar here, but the difference is you only have two and a half hours of material to work with, as opposed to a 400-page book.
Andrew: I’m just coming to peace with the situation, with being so in the dark on so many questions. It just reminds me of the books, what we were doing with the books. And yeah, you mentioned Sorcerer’s Stone. Imagine if we had MuggleCast when Chamber of Secrets came out. We wouldn’t have much to work with there. [laughs]
Eric: But in the books, there’s this very real commitment to not contradicting previous information. It’s true we were in the dark – we were very, very, very in the dark – but it was all leading to something; it was all building to something that seemed consistent. There are so many things in the second film that don’t even track with the first film in the series, character motivations, and there’s just no real coherence, and there’s no guarantee… it really doesn’t seem like J.K. Rowling is paying any attention to not only to what she’s written in the Harry Potter books before – I’m not the kind of person who complains about these films not stacking up with Harry Potter – but it doesn’t even stack up with Fantastic Beasts 1, in my opinion. So it’s very, very messy. And additionally, films or books should all stand on their own. They should have the ability to stand on their own. This film does not. It doesn’t. It’s in between movies, and this film is just a astronomical failure on a bunch of levels that I think our confusion is not at all the same as what it used to be when we were between books.
Andrew: Okay. All right, just wanted to push back.
Micah: I think the other question, though, to go off of what you said, Andrew, is should we be even trying to draw the threads between this series and the Potter films, or should we just let it exist on its own?
Andrew: No, I think we should connect it to Harry Potter. Absolutely. I mean, what’s the fun in all this if it’s not? And I think J.K. Rowling feels that way as well.
Eric: But doesn’t that bring more pain and suffering?
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: No. Not for me, anyway. I’m okay with everything right now. Maybe I’m just in a good mood this morning. December, the holidays…
Micah: Coffee?
Andrew: Coffee, yeah. I need more, by the way. Anyway, what’s this next theory?
Micah: Eric kind of alluded to this already, that another big theory out there is that Aurelius is Ariana’s twin. And referencing the quote from Dumbledore, he says in this film, “I know this: An Obscurus grows in the absence of love as a dark twin, and only friend. If Credence has a real brother or sister out there who can take its place, he might yet be saved.” And I asked the question, why does it have to be a brother or a sister that replaces the Obscurus? Why couldn’t it be a close friend or a love interest?
Andrew: That is a good question. Maybe Dumbledore said that because it’s true that Aurelius is really Albus’s brother.
Eric: Then he would almost have to sacrifice himself.
Andrew: Right. It’s foreshadowing. I mean, I don’t know. That seems like good confirmation to me that what Grindelwald is saying is true.
Eric: If Dumbledore was really his brother, he could just go find Credence himself, and then be like, “Hey, buddy, I love you,” and then the Obscurus would go away, right?
Andrew: And maybe what Albus is also saying here is that the lifelong bond of a brother or sister is more powerful than that of a love interest or a friend, which isn’t lifelong. I mean, a brother and sister is forever. Nagini might not be. Nagini, I don’t even really consider a love interest; at least, wasn’t really getting that vibe in the film.
Eric: Oh. She’s a close, close confidant. I think maybe…
Andrew: Maybe Dumbledore is saying blood, just a blood relationship.
Eric: Yeah, either that, or he’s saying brother because that’s what the prophecy says; as far as the Leta Lestrange prophecy that Newt is going off of is talking about a sibling connection, so Dumbledore is just using that as an example. Maybe there’s more than just… maybe you don’t need to be a blood brother to help somebody out of an Obscurus. It’s weird because we’re working with different understandings of what the Obscurus is and how common they are. In the first film, nobody in America was willing to believe that an Obscurus could even exist, because it had been centuries since they had seen one. Meanwhile, Newt saved a girl in Tibet, or tried to just the other week, and Dumbledore’s little sister had one. Everybody’s got one in the UK; they’re all the rage.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: I think the key word there is “real,” as in “real brother or sister.” J.K. Rowling is not one to include words for the sake of including words, and the fact that it says “real brother,” that just stood out to me.
Andrew: Yeah. I think it answers your question, your original question.
Micah: What do you think, Jemima?
Jemima: Yeah, I’m just looking at this quote, and it just feels like you can really tell that Dumbledore feels guilty for not being that real brother for Ariana; he really feels like it’s his fault that her Obscurus got so out of hand. But I just can’t buy into the idea that there was a whole ‘nother brother that we never heard about that was there the whole time, or that Dumbledore knew about.
Andrew: I’m glad you mentioned that, because that relates to the questions we asked next here. I mean, and they’re funny questions to ask. Why have we never heard of this Aurelius Dumbledore? Why did Rita Skeeter never report on Aurelius in The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore? Which, by the way, I have that art from MinaLima of that book cover. I love it, and now it feels relevant again, because Dumbledore is such a mystery.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Micah: Search it for clues.
Andrew: [laughs] It’s just the book cover, I can’t really…
Eric: Look for the Oni hidden in the back.
Andrew: [laughs] Oh my God, Credence Barebone is on the cover! Very small! It’s been true all along.
Eric: I will say, it doesn’t bode well for Credence.
Andrew: Yes.
Eric: That’s maybe the biggest thing about it, is that we’ve never heard about this guy before.
Andrew: And that’s why the first thing I tweeted after seeing this movie was “Poor Dumbledore,” because that means he loses a sister and a brother. There’s no way he’s still alive by the time we get to the Harry Potter series. He has to die by the end of the series.
Eric: Maybe he’s living in the same place where Saul Goodman is, from Breaking Bad, just incognito.
[Andrew and Jemima laugh]
Andrew: And think about it, we’ve been saying, “Well, we’re going to lose characters along the way. It’s not going to be Dumbledore, it’s not going to be Newt, it’s not going to be Grindelwald. Could be Jacob; that would be really sad.” It’s highly likely it’s going to be Credence as well.
Eric: Yeah. Wouldn’t it be funny if it was Dumbledore, though? [laughs]
Andrew: Oh my God, could you imagine? We would all quit the fandom. MuggleCast would be over if she killed Albus. We couldn’t go on after that.
[Jemima laughs]
Eric: J.K. Rowling is just like, “Yeah, actually, he dies now.” [laughs]
Andrew: “Oh, wait, he lives through Harry Potter? Damn, I forgot about that.” [laughs]
Eric: She’s not checking her work. Nobody’s keeping her in check.
Andrew: [laughs] Bring back the woman who was stealing all of her stuff.
[Andrew and Jemima laugh]
Andrew: But yeah, that is one of the biggest questions: Why have we never heard about Aurelius before? But as I brought up on an episode or two ago, the Dumbledore family has always been a mystery, so it does make sense that we haven’t heard of him before.
Micah: Maybe, but Rita’s work seemed pretty extensive in Deathly Hallows. Despite her reputation, she got a lot of stuff right.
Andrew: Here’s the other thing, though, guys: I am certain that Aurelius Dumbledore did not exist before J.K. Rowling started writing the Fantastic Beasts film series.
Jemima: No way.
Andrew: There’s no way this has been in J.K. Rowling’s head all this time.
Jemima: No. I don’t think any of this movie was in her head. I know that she says that it was, but I don’t know.
Andrew: Well, I think the larger parts of the… well, I guess I can’t say the larger parts, because then that means that this goes against what I just said. But I think the Dumbledore/Grindelwald battle and some of the elements of that have always been in J.K. Rowling’s head, and maybe parts of Newt’s journey.
Jemima: Yeah, sure.
Eric: Nagini?
Andrew: Not Nagini. No way. [laughs]
Eric: That was what she said, was 20 years in her head.
Andrew: Oh, that’s true.
Jemima: I just do not believe that at all. Like, come on. As if there wouldn’t be hints dropped about it in this series that we would have picked up on.
Eric: Well, her name. I think her name literally means “snake woman.” I could be wrong about that.
Andrew: And I guess one other question is if the Harry Potter encyclopedia had ever been published, would info like this be in there? And maybe – this is a crackpot theory of sorts… because we know J.K. Rowling was writing the encyclopedia for a time; she said as much on her website. Maybe she was looking at this while writing, and being like, “I have all this wild info; I can’t just drop this all in a book. I need to tell this story in a bigger format.” I don’t know.
Micah: And I happened to watch an interview – it was a couple weeks ago – with her and Steve Kloves; it was following the release of the last film, and she talks a lot about Dumbledore in that interview and how she enjoys writing him, so it’s not surprising that she has now really written in an entire new series which is focused on him. I know Newt is the central character, but I think a lot of this has been in her head for quite some time, and now she’s just getting it out on paper on screen. And I’m confident that she’s going to connect all these threads, and we’ll sort of see the light once the final film is released. But to me, it all goes back to what happened in Godric’s Hollow. Once we get inside of that house and see what happened, I think that a lot of these questions will be answered.
Andrew: Totally agree.
Micah: I hope so. The other question about the twin situation was why would he have been shipped off to America? This is a big question, because the likelihood of him having presented with an Obscurus… let’s say that Ariana and Aurelius, they’re twins; they’re born, and all of a sudden Aurelius gets taken, and he’s put on that ship, because he’s, what, maybe a couple months old at that time? So it had to be literally a few months at the most after he’s born, and he’s put on this ship to America. Is it to protect him in some way? Who’s he being protected from? A lot of questions.
Andrew: Yeah, you would think it’s going to be something tragic, because a lot of the history of the Dumbledores is tragic.
Micah: And furthermore, what are the chances of having two children who are Obscurials? And is it because the two of them were separated that this happened in the first place?
Eric: I think a couple months old is way too young to even have an Obscurus inside you.
Micah: Right, but what I’m saying is because you separated these two twins at birth, is that automatically causing the Obscurus to form down the line?
Andrew: No.
Micah: No?
Andrew: I don’t think so, because didn’t Credence’s Obscurus form because of how he was being treated over in America?
Eric: Well, yeah, very specifically, an Obscurus – as far as I know – comes from your… it’s that magical ability that you have inside you that isn’t getting used, you’re not permitting yourself to use your magic, and so it turns inward and gets crazy and dark. That’s what Newt says in Movie 1, anyway.
Andrew: Yeah. No matter what theory ends up being true, we’re going to need to know why the hell Credence was on a boat heading to America. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah. And the script book calls… it’s his aunt, it’s Credence’s aunt is the woman that is carrying him; she’s identified as being that. So if it’s a Dumbledore, if Credence is a Dumbledore, then that’s Dumbledore’s aunt or cousin or whoever.
Andrew: So let’s talk about this Corvus one. I know Micah loves Corvus.
Micah: [laughs] Sure.
Andrew: You always talk about the Corvuses. That’s why I say that. [laughs]
Eric: Corvi.
Andrew: Yeah, there’s like, eight.
Micah: There’s eight of them, yeah. Because it directly ties into my guy Yusuf, that’s why.
[Andrew laughs]
Micah: No, so to me, this is still the most plausible theory out there. I’m holding on to this one for right now…
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Micah: … with maybe some of the other pieces that we spoke about mixed into the equation. I still think that it’s a strong likelihood that Credence is a Lestrange. The main thought behind that is that we know that both Abernathy and Rosier go into the French Ministry to get that book that details out the family’s lineage and bring it over to the mausoleum. The main point is by doing that, they get all the characters into one place. However, are we to think that they didn’t tamper with it in some way?
Andrew and Eric: Yeah.
Andrew: That’s a good point. I don’t know what they would have to gain from tampering with it, though.
Eric: Well, Leta already seems to have a high degree of knowledge about her own family tree or history. If there were egregious changes, I think she maybe would have noticed it, but the case can also be made that she’s distracted at that moment. The more interesting thing is that Grimmson killed Irma. That bothers me the most, that they had to silence this older woman who would have been able to presumably interfere with whatever their plan is. That bothers me the most, because maybe she could have identified whether Credence really was Corvus or this other boy. If Irma and Leta ever met, they could talk about the switcheroo, and if that was a thing. But it all probably happened so fast. I’m just not sure why they killed Irma.
Andrew: Well, that would prevent Credence from getting the true answers. Did Grindelwald direct him to kill Irma? I can’t remember.
Eric: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Okay, so that could be evidence that Grindelwald is lying, because if Grindelwald is lying at the end of the movie, he doesn’t want Credence going back to Irma, who he just met, and being like, “Hey, what’s the truth here?”
Eric: Yeah, the whole reason Grimmson had to get himself assigned to track Credence was so that they could guide Credence to this woman and then kill her and claim it was a mistake.
Andrew: “What is my truth, Irma? I want to know who I am.”
[Eric and Micah laugh]
Andrew: You know what’s funny? We thought Irma was going to be with Nicolas Flamel in some fashion because of how they were positioned together on the poster. They had no interactions.
Eric: Yeah, where’s Flamel’s wife? I want to know. She’s just chilling upstairs, I guess. Jacob already searched up there, but I guess he missed these two people who were just there the whole time. Yeah, but Nicolas Flamel is happily married to another older – well, I guess she’s only five years younger than him – woman named Perenelle, I think.
Andrew: And what’s this final theory?
Micah: Well, just going back to Corvus Lestrange, I know we’ve talked about it a lot on other episodes, but it is worth reiterating the fact that the Lestrange family line continues in some way, so Corvus can’t be the last living member of the Lestrange male bloodline. It would be impossible.
Andrew: Right.
Micah: So either that’s a big plot hole that needs to somehow be filled, or something that happened in this film isn’t what it appears to be, which is probably more likely. Also, the bit about Yusuf, right? He made an Unbreakable Vow with his father that he would extinguish the Lestrange family line, and yet he still seems to be beholden to this vow in some way. I don’t know how you’re alerted to the fact that the vow is no longer valid, but if this kid had in fact died, let’s say 20 or so years prior, then you would think that Yusuf would not need to be on this manhunt. Also, why the hell would you take that much time to give that much backstory about the Lestranges if it’s all irrelevant?
[Eric and Jemima laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, that’s true. The Lestrange name is too important for this to have been a plot hole. J.K. Rowling has this area mapped out perfectly, I assume.
Micah: Also, speaking of the Lestrange name, because I happened to see this – I forget if it was in the Facebook group or over on Patreon – why did Leta end up at Hogwarts?
Eric: Oh, yeah. That’s a big question. She was born in France, spent her childhood there under the Lestrange daddy, and then moved to America when she was young.
Andrew: Maybe she wanted to go to Hogwarts, like many of us.
Eric: Aww.
Micah: But why not go to…
Andrew: Ilvermorny?
Micah: … Beauxbatons?
Andrew: Oh.
Eric: Yeah, Beauxbatons, the French wizarding school.
Andrew: Because Hogwarts is the coolest.
Micah: Another clue. Why did her family move to England?
Eric: To live in Godric’s Hollow, next to Dumbledore, probably.
[Micah laughs]
Eric: So here’s a theory that I just love, with very little evidence, but it’s pretty cool. Clár on our Facebook group – hope I’m saying that right – questions whether Credence is Ariana. Here’s the theory; she said,
“I don’t know exactly how it would all fit together, but Ariana’s name means ‘silver’ in Welsh, and Aurelius means ‘gold’ in Latin. Dumbledore and Flamel were both known to have worked on alchemy together, e.g. turning base metals into gold…”
So the theory that Ariana, whose name means silver, and Credence, whose name means gold, that Ariana was somehow transformed into Credence. This also works with the Obscurus theory, that just Ariana’s Obscurus is now in Credence. But if Ariana is somehow still alive as Credence, that would be very interesting, twisty for me, I think. What about you guys?
Andrew: Yeah, and it certainly helps explain why Flamel is in this movie.
Eric: Oh. It would also mean there’s no extra Dumbledore sibling. It’s just that Ariana is now a brother instead of a sister.
Andrew: Very progressive.
Eric: It’s an interesting theory that I’m interested in finding more evidence for.
Micah: I think the theory that you have further down here from Tiare is another real possibility, and I think would probably blow a lot of people’s minds if it ends up being true.
Andrew: So let’s talk about that. So Tiare said,
“My boyfriend has seen the HP movies a few times because his mom loves HP, but he has not read the books. After we saw Crimes of Grindelwald, he told me that he thinks Dumbledore and Grindelwald didn’t just combine their blood to make a blood pact, but they somehow magically combined their blood to make Credence! How two men could make a baby with magic and how they would put it into a woman’s womb (I hope with her consent), I don’t know. But this could explain how a person related to Dumbledore came into existence without anyone knowing.”
Micah: Talk about progressive.
[Andrew and Jemima laugh]
Eric: Life on progressive…
Andrew: Well, we do see this blood pact object kind of come into existence out of nowhere, so maybe a human can too. Why the hell not?
Jemima: Yeah, I love this. It’s crazy. I have no idea how it would work, but I love it.
Andrew: Do you love…? That’s interesting that you love it. I mean, you’re comfortable with J.K. Rowling just creating humans out of blood?
Jemima: Yeah, well, I mean, this second film was full of magic that we’d never seen before, that was just like, “Oh, well, this is convenient. Suddenly there’s a spell that can do this; suddenly everyone can do all this magic that we’ve never seen before.” So why not two men make a baby?
[Andrew laughs]
Eric: Yeah, from time travel powder to two men baby making… I will say, it kind of reminds me of the cauldron in Goblet of Fire, where Voldemort gets his body back.
Andrew and Jemima: Ohh.
Eric: You do need a soul for that, though. So Credence’s soul had to come from somewhere; maybe it came from Ariana. I don’t know, but that’s a possibility. And then the other thing is that, how crazy would it be for J.K. Rowling…? She shook the world ten years ago when she announced that Dumbledore was gay. What about ten years later, when she announces that Dumbledore made a baby with another man?
[Andrew and Jemima laugh]
Eric: How does that work? It’s magic!
Andrew: Wow. Just another reason so many gays want to go into J.K. Rowling’s wizarding world. [laughs]
Eric: It just doesn’t… I mean, I think this is interesting for the sake of speculation, but otherwise I think it would be a little hard to believe.
Micah: Yeah, and we don’t know what the consequence of breaking that blood pact looks like right now.
Eric: Right.
Micah: I mean, could it be that it would destroy Credence, potentially, if in fact he is their child?
Andrew: Oh, yeah. Remember also that we were discussing how it seems like, according to the script book, the screenplay, Dumbledore regrets making that blood pact, so that would mean he regrets the existence of Credence, doesn’t it?
Eric: Potentially. Yeah, if the two are related.
Andrew: That would be super dark, because that is a blood brother of his, if we’re believing this theory.
Eric: Right.
Micah: I do like what Clár did, though, going into the etymology of the names of Aurelius and Ariana, silver and gold, twins, that sort of thing. So I think there’s a lot there. There’s a ton of stuff to dig into, and yeah, this is what happens; we end up with all these types of theories when we have absolutely no idea what the hell is going to happen.
Andrew: One other theory that one of our patrons wanted to point out was the McGonagall story. Jackie wrote in with this; she said Professor McGonagall’s timeline is interesting.
“The theory/article that was posted by Hypable on the MuggleCast Patron Facebook page is onto something. We all just assumed from two comments that she was born in that specific time. We were never actually given a true year. Yes, we have the date from Pottermore, but not the year.”
So Lucas was on the show a couple weeks ago telling us what he thought of Fantastic Beasts, because he saw it really early, and then Micah was teasing him last week. Very mean of you, Micah. But so Lucas has been studying this McGonagall birth date, and he did write a very long article for Hypable, citing a lot of information from Pottermore, which actually kind of suggests that maybe we’ve been too quick to assume that McGonagall was born in 1935. And the short version of his theory is that he put together a timeline where McGonagall actually could have been born in 1889, and he believes that McGonagall didn’t teach at Hogwarts for the number of years that we thought concurrently, so he thinks, and now I think, that McGonagall actually took a break from teaching at Hogwarts for a while.
Eric: She was trying to raise baby Voldemort, clearly.
Andrew: [laughs] There’s just a few different areas on Pottermore where J.K. Rowling hints at McGonagall’s age, and it suggests that McGonagall and Dumbledore were friends when Dumbledore was teaching Tom Riddle, which, that alone pushes her age, pushes her birthday back to earlier, because why would Dumbledore and McGonagall be friends in the ’40s? And there’s a bunch of other examples. We’ll link to it in the show notes.
Micah: You know what, though? I think I said this on a previous episode: The McGonagall piece didn’t bother me. Even if it turns out that she was born in 1935, the fact that she was in the film, that didn’t bother me as much. Did it bother you guys?
Jemima: It really bothered me.
Andrew: Well, I think people are just…
Micah: Did it?
Jemima: Yeah, I think just because I felt like they crammed a lot of Potter references into that film, and just being at Hogwarts was enough for me. Having McGonagall there thrown in as an afterthought to get audiences excited was just… it seemed really lazy. I feel like they could have written it well or done something else to make people get excited rather than just throwing her in.
Andrew: Pat’s been saying it could have been a different professor, an older professor.
Eric: Yeah, Merrythought.
Andrew: Or Dippet.
Eric and Jemima: Yeah.
Andrew: Just somebody… another professor could have been just as recognizable as McGonagall. It doesn’t really bother me too much, Micah. I think why people are so concerned is that it just might show how J.K. Rowling is treating past canon, and that’s worrying.
Eric: Yeah, yeah.
Micah: Right. Yeah, I still think there’s a likelihood of seeing other characters that do fit into the timeline. We’ve talked about Tom Riddle, we’ve talked about Hagrid, we’ve talked about Slughorn… there’s a lot of characters, I think, I would hope, that are coming in the future that we’re going to get a chance to see again.
Andrew: And I feel like we’re going to see McGonagall again.
Eric and Jemima: Yes.
Micah: According to your emails.
Andrew: [laughs] Right. Well, and Rowling put her in once; it would be silly to just have a couple throwaway lines and then never see her again, especially if Dumbledore is feeling very conflicted about what to do with Grindelwald. He could be consulting McGonagall for some help. And look, some of this evidence that Lucas brought up points to, like I said, Dumbledore and McGonagall talking about Tom Riddle, so they could have been talking about Grindelwald as well.
Eric: Yeah. This is starting to fly in the face of Chapter 1 of Book 1 for me, of how McGonagall seems a little bit distant from Albus in that chapter, where she’s like, “Surely you don’t think… Dumbledore, no,” and she casually is like, “Well, everyone says you’re the only one he ever feared.” That’s somebody who’s not your best friend, well acquainted for over 80 years, saying that kind of stuff, because it’s very basic; it seems like they don’t have a close connection. If she’s going to be Dumbledore’s consult on everything Grindelwald, and eventually everything Voldemort, because she was alive the same time he was, then that’s going to change… inevitably it flies in the face of canon.
Andrew: To be fair, though, did J.K. Rowling have everyone’s ages worked out Chapter 1, Book 1?
Eric: Well, I mean, no, but then she eventually made it so McGonagall wasn’t born when the original stuff was going on, so it made perfect sense that she wouldn’t be as acquainted with Dumbledore. But if they’re peers in the ’30s, that’s kind of a problem then. So I don’t know.
Andrew: One more theory to discuss today: Bridget McAdam pointed to John Granger’s “Queenie is a double agent” theory, and Granger doesn’t necessarily elaborate on how or why this theory exists; he’s simply covering some deleted scenes we know exist. He did a great piece on the deleted scenes that we’ve seen in trailers and promotional photos and behind-the-scenes photos. And we do see Queenie spending some time in the Ministry, and what is she doing there? John writes,
“She wasn’t there just to have a meltdown in front of a clerk. Do you think she ‘heard’ Abernathy, in his woman’s disguise and holding the Lestrange family tree book, walk to the elevator with Rosier?”
Because like I said, in the trailer we do have the shot of Queenie in the Ministry. John says, “Hence her walk about the Ministry to do surveillance only this congenital Legilimens could do.” I could totally see Queenie being a double agent.
Jemima: Yeah, me too.
Andrew: What did you make of Queenie, Jemima, in this movie? There’s been a lot of debate about her too, because she seemed very different from the first movie.
Jemima: She did, and I definitely have some issues with that. I feel like actually all of the female characters in this movie, their one storyline was the fact that they were in love with a man, and that was it. But that’s beside the point. I feel like Queenie is smarter than being tricked by Grindelwald. If she can read minds, I don’t understand how that whole scene happened in the house with the tea and everything like that. So I could totally see her pretending that she doesn’t have that power and pretending she’s just a ditzy blonde who is being sucked over to the bad side.
Micah: I think that’s a great question, though: Is Queenie essentially the Fantastic Beasts version of Snape?
Andrew: That would be cool.
Eric and Micah: Yeah.
Andrew: And I keep talking about from a movie-goer perspective, it would be a good payoff to see Queenie… she’s scaring us right now, she’s disappointing us, but maybe in Movie 3 or 4 she’s actually going to wow us. Remember that line, that comment from J.K. Rowling: “How things seem by the end of this movie may not actually be true.” She said something to that effect.
Eric: Because the truth was omitted from this film for runtime.
Andrew: No, no, I just mean Queenie’s…
Micah: Are we talking about the very last scene?
Andrew: I’m talking about Queenie. I’m talking about Queenie. [laughs]
Micah: All of it, all of it.
Eric: Ultimately, it’s a much better arc for the character if she’s a double agent than if she’s just…
Andrew: Yes.
Eric: … hoodwinked by Grindelwald like this, after experiencing the whole Graves thing for over a year.
Andrew and Jemima: Yeah.
Jemima: She’s so in love with Jacob that I don’t see how Grindelwald could convince her that Muggles are bad when she’s so in love with him.
Andrew: Right. All right, that was fun. Thank you to the patrons who sent in some of the more interesting Crimes of Grindelwald theories. Of course, there’s a lot more to be said in the weeks ahead. If you have any thoughts on any of these theories, or you have a theory of your own, feel free to call us. 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. Leave a voicemail that’s roughly a minute long. We can’t really play long voicemails; otherwise we won’t have time to fit in as many voicemails as possible. Or you can email it into MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on our website.
Quizzitch
Andrew: It’s time for some Quizzitch.
Eric: Last week’s question: According to the Crimes of Grindelwald screenplay/film, what is Travers’s official position at the Ministry of Magic? The answer is that he is the Head of Magical Law Enforcement. Pretty big role, pretty big solid role for him, and he tells Dumbledore himself what his role is, so fairly big moment in the movie. The winners who got the right answer: Erica, and she also says, “I don’t trust him one bit, because Travers is the surname of a future Death Eater,” so there’s that. The Insufferable Know-It-All, Valerie K., Michelle, Where in the World is Kevin Steck, Vaping with Dad, Count Tortellini a.k.a. Micah… okay.
[Andrew and Jemima laugh]
Eric: Kate, Yasmin, Miranda… these are getting a little out of hand, I think.
Andrew: No, they’re not.
Eric: Robbie Stillman, King of Kings, Kelly Loomis, and that is it. So thank you to everybody who participates. We do this over on Twitter; you’ve got to at reply MuggleCast, as well as use hashtag #Quizzitch in your answer for us to find it. Next week’s question is: What does Yusuf Kama mutter upon waking up while in Nicolas Flamel’s house? Jacob overhears him muttering, and we see it in the film.
Andrew: I’m sure Micah knows the answer. Go tweet the answer now, Micah. You can be the first to correctly answer it. Big Yusuf fan.
Micah: Don’t want to take it away from anybody else.
Eric: Good old Mr. Tentacles.
Andrew: By the way, speaking of trivia, the Amazon Echo is now doing Harry Potter trivia.
Eric: What?
Andrew: Yeah, they just launched that yesterday. I haven’t tried it out yet, but it’s…
Eric: Well, do you have an Echo?
Andrew: I do.
Eric: Well, just get it. Just go and ask it to…
Andrew: I mean, I will after recording.
Eric: Oh, you don’t want to do it on the air?
Andrew: No, it won’t pick up on the mic. It won’t pick up on the mic.
Eric: Oh, isn’t it portable?
Andrew: No, you’ve got to plug it in.
Eric: Oh, okay.
Andrew: It’s some sort of partnership with Audible, I saw.
Eric: Huh.
Andrew: So Jemima, thanks so much for joining us, and again, for staying up late. We appreciate it.
Jemima: No, of course. Thanks for having me. I’ve been listening to you guys for ten years now, so I’m super excited to be on the show.
Andrew: That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much for your support. I just want to let all of our listeners know that later this month, patrons are going to be the first to hear some big news about MuggleCast. I don’t want to hype it up too much, because I don’t want to set expectations too high and then everybody’s let down…
[Eric laughs]
Andrew: … but we have some exciting news. It’s not an interview, I’ll just say that. It’s not an interview; it’s something else regarding the show, and patrons are going to be the first to hear this news towards the end of December. If you pledge on Patreon, you’ll be able to join us live as we record each episode. You’ll also receive bonus MuggleCast installments and plenty of other benefits, including our brand new movie commentary for The Holiday! We did a movie commentary last weekend, and it’s available now on Patreon for The Holiday. We actually really analyzed the movie at certain points.
[Andrew and Eric laugh]
Andrew: It was like we were analyzing a Harry Potter movie. It was kind of ridiculous.
Eric: I think we broke the film. I liked it less after we talked about it. [laughs]
Andrew: Oh, no!
Eric: I know, I know.
Andrew: I still love it just as much. And we’ve gotten some nice feedback about that too; I was relieved, because it’s not a Harry Potter commentary, so didn’t know how people would respond to it, but they liked it. So there’s lots of benefits over at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, including the chance to one day cohost the show like Jemima did today. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.
Eric: I’m Eric.
Micah: I’m Micah.
Jemima: And I’m Jemima.
Andrew: Bye, everybody.
Eric, Jemima, and Micah: Bye.