Transcript #663

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #663, Karkaroff the Canary (GOF Chapter 30, The Pensieve)

Show Intro

[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week we are diving headfirst into Dumbledore’s memories that he definitely didn’t leave accessible on purpose. Oh, why did Laura make me say that? Because I actually disagree, and now I just said it out loud like I’m Ron Burgundy.

Laura: Well, you’re on the record now. We can just take that clip, take it out of context…

Andrew: No…

Laura: … and now you’re a Dumbledore hater. Mission accomplished.

Andrew: Whoa, that escalated quickly.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, to help us with today’s discussion – and maybe help me defend Dumbledore – is friend of the show and a podcaster herself, Morgan. Hi, Morgan. Welcome to MuggleCast.

Morgan: Hi. I can’t believe it’s been so many years, and now I’m actually on MuggleCast. This is wild.

Andrew: You’re a longtime listener of the show. We’ve been in touch with you a lot recently; I helped you with the launch of your podcast, and a few of us in the Hypable podcast world have been on your show now too. Tell us about That Nerd Thing, your podcast.

Morgan: Yeah, well, and I’m going to be scheduling with Micah, and I’m also recording with Eric, so I’m completing the set. That Nerd Thing pretty much is a show where I interview people about the things that they’re nerdy about and learn about their journeys into fandom, and it’s also an opportunity for me to nerd out, because I don’t really get to do that in my day job as a therapist, and so it’s just a fun place to be creative. And thank you again, Andrew, for all of your help with launching the podcast. I could never have done it without you.

Andrew: Aw, it was my pleasure to help you. It was fun to talk through the ideas that you have.

Micah: Don’t inflate his ego, please.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Listeners, check out That Nerd Thing. And let’s also get your Fandom ID, Morgan.

Morgan: Yes, so my favorite book and movie is definitely Prisoner of Azkaban

Laura: Hell yeah.

Morgan: … because I just love, love, love time travel. It’s my favorite. Back to the Future is my all-time favorite movie, so whenever I see time travel in something, I love it. Let’s see… I have been a Hufflepuff for many years, but I feel like I’m entering my Slytherin era.

Andrew: Ooh.

Morgan: Thunderbird, and then my favorite character is Ron because I think he’s just so complex, and I love how he’s not just all good or all bad, and he is a lot in between.

Andrew: Again, it’s a pleasure to have you on, Morgan, and yeah, thanks for your long time support too. You’re a patron.

Morgan: I say it every time I talk to all of you, but I really will support all of you forever.

Laura: That means a lot.

Andrew: Thank you; that’s very nice. When we launched What the Hype?! I think you had said, “Is there a Patreon? Because I want to sign up.” [laughs] And we were like, “We’re actually not doing a Patreon for now.” But I appreciate that, your interest there.

Morgan: Well, it’s so much work! You guys… I can’t imagine all the behind the scenes stuff.

Andrew: It is a lot of work!

Morgan: Yeah, it’s a lot, so you should get paid for it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, you definitely helped us out by being on our most recent episode of What the Hype?!, which is coming out before…

Andrew: It’ll already be out.

Laura: It’ll already be out by the time this episode comes out where we’re reviewing the second half of Bridgerton Season 3, so thank you for being there with us.

Morgan: Thank you for asking.

Andrew: Well, speaking of Patreon, I am wearing this year’s physical gift right now. It’s the MuggleCast 19 Years Later T-shirt, featuring new silhouettes of the four MuggleCast co-hosts. This is a spin on our very first T-shirt, which we call the MuggleCast square design. It had the MuggleCast hosts in silhouette form with iPod earbuds; we were recreating those iconic Apple iPod commercials. So we recreated the shirt but just with the four hosts, and refreshed the design in a very slick new way because this August we’re turning 19, and of course, it’s the Epilogue year, 19 Years Later in Deathly Hallows. So patrons who pledge at the Slug Club level can get this T-shirt; existing patrons, make sure you fill out the T-shirt order form on Patreon. If you’re not a patron yet, or you’re at a lower tier, you can upgrade or pledge by July 19 and fill out the order form, and you will receive this shirt too. This is a shirt we have created exclusively for patrons. This is a great year to join us on Patreon, our 19 Years Later year. [laughs] I don’t know how to say it. Our Epilogue year.

Laura: It’s our 19 Years Later.

Andrew: Year.

Laura: That’s all you say.

Andrew: It’s our 19 Years Later moment.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: I’m high on cold medicine today; I feel like we should get that out there.

Micah: Aren’t we all?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: How do you think I do this show every week?

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: Well, like Morgan said, podcasting is a lot of work, and we really need everybody’s support over on Patreon because we are an independent podcast. Your support goes a really long way. It allows us to spend more time on this show that we love doing so much. So hit up today and pledge by July 19, and don’t forget to fill out that order form as well. By the way, the T-shirt is just the tip of iceberg. You get access to our livestreams, early access to MuggleCast, ad-free MuggleCast, monthly Slug Club hangouts, the MuggleCast Collector’s Club…

Micah: Bonus MuggleCast.

Andrew: Bonus MuggleCast! Laura, what’s coming up in bonus MuggleCast this week?

Laura: Actually, this week’s bonus MuggleCast is inspired by some great news that we heard about Dan Radcliffe over the weekend. He won his first Tony; he won for Best Featured Actor for his role as Charlie Kringas in Stephen Sondheim’s Merrily We Roll Along. So bonus MuggleCast is really going to be based on what projects have the cast of Harry Potter been up to all these years since the movies ended? And I think when you start digging into the IMDb, you might be a little bit surprised to see just how many things all of these actors have continued to be in, and how many of these things you may have actually seen and just not necessarily made the connection because they are really good actors. And you don’t really see Dan Radcliffe in a lot of stuff, for example, and think, “Oh my God, that’s Harry Potter,” because he is such a good actor, and he does a great job of just sinking into a role. We’ll talk about all of those other projects that they’ve had in the years since Potter, but before we move on, I was thinking we could listen to Dan’s acceptance speech for his first ever Tony nomination and award win.

[Audio clip plays]

“Thank you so much to the Broadway League and the American Theater Wing for this unbelievable honor. Thank you to our producers, Sonia, David, Patrick, and Jeff, for making all of this happen. Thank you to Stephen Sondheim and George Furth for writing this unbelievable show and these incredible songs that are just a gift to get to sing every night. Thank you to Maria, our director, for knowing the show like the back of your hand, and for guiding us through it so, so beautifully. And also, just this has been one of the best experiences of my life. Thank you for thinking of me for this. This is just… it’s been unbelievable. Thank you so much to our cast, everybody on that stage. It is an honor to be on stage with you every single night. And to… yeah, I will just… I will miss it so much. Speaking of missing things, Jonathan, Lindsay, I will miss you so much. I don’t really have to act in this show; I just have to look at you and I feel everything I want to feel. I will never have it this good again. Thank you. Thank you to our crew, the band, the stage management team, everybody who makes the show happen every day at the Hudson Theater. You make it a dream to come to work. Thank you so, so much. Thank you to Sue Latimer, my agent, who has been with me literally my entire life. That’s not a joke. Sandy Binion, my dresser. You dressed me on Equus – or no, you didn’t dress me; we met on Equus, and then you’ve dressed me on everything since. None of this would have been half as much fun without you. Thank you so much. My singing teacher, Mark Malan, is the only reason I sound any good in the show. Thank you, Mark. My mum and dad are here somewhere. Happy Father’s Day, Dad. I love you both so much. Thank you for playing Sondheim in the car and just, you know, loving me. And my love Erin, you and our son, the best thing that has ever happened to me. I love you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. Have a great, great night.”

[Audio clip ends]

Andrew: That was sweet, and Jonathan Groff was just straight up crying watching him receive that award, which was so sweet.

Laura: Yeah. I also love the brief moment of “You dressed me on Equus,” and it’s like, “No, no, nobody dressed you on Equus.”

Andrew: “You undressed on Equus.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But yeah, congrats to him, and he’s just such a wholesome guy.

Morgan: Yeah, you could hear the emotion.

Laura: Everything about that was so humble, yeah.

Micah: It’s really cool to see the passion that he has for theater, too. And I know we’re going to talk more about this in bonus MuggleCast, but getting to see him in How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, and then to see him in something completely opposite of that, which was The Cripple of Inishman, where he’s playing, literally, this crippled individual on stage night after night… I mean, he’s really good. I don’t think people give him enough credit. And his vocal ability too; he performed during the Tonys as well. And obviously, he’s done a ton of musicals. He’s multi-talented, and I don’t think he gets enough credit.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Well, we’ll try to give him more credit in bonus MuggleCast this week on our Patreon and through Apple Podcasts if you’re a MuggleCast Gold subscriber.

Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary

Andrew: So now it’s time for Chapter by Chapter, and this week, we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 30, “The Pensieve.” Let’s start with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Dumbledore…

Micah: … craftily…

Laura: … leaves…

Morgan: … exposed…

Laura: … memories…

Micah: … inside…

Andrew: … basin.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I was thinking those last two words were going to be “for Harry.”

Andrew: Ohh. Wow, you’re really trying to hammer that home this week.

Laura: Yeah, I think it’s important.

Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion

Laura: And that’s actually where we’re going to start. We’re going to jump around a little bit here at the beginning, but then we’ll go back in order, I promise. Real talk: Dumbledore left that cabinet containing the Pensieve ajar, and you cannot change my mind. There is no way.

Andrew: Laura, Laura, Laura…

Laura: He doesn’t do anything on accident.

Andrew: Present your evidence, then I’ll respond.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I just don’t think he does anything on accident. When has Dumbledore ever accidentally done something?

Micah: Are we counting Ariana?

Laura: She was collateral damage. That’s different, but…

Micah: Okay.

Laura: Okay, so this thing is shimmering so much with the cabinet door open that Harry notices it amongst all the other weird stuff Dumbledore has in his office. And Dumbledore clearly places so much importance on the Pensieve that he was literally just using right before Fudge got there, so I find it hard to believe that he wouldn’t have wanted to hide that from Fudge…

Morgan: That’s a good point.

Laura: … and that he wouldn’t have closed the cabinet entirely. I think as they were walking out of the office, I think he had a slip of the wand…

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Laura: … and he just slightly opened up that cabinet as they walked out, because he knew Harry would see it.

Andrew: Well…

Micah: Come on, Andrew, what do you usually do? [imitating Andrew imitating Dumbledore] “Oohoo, I’m going for a walk. Don’t mind me.”

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Ooh, just heading on out for a quick minute. Don’t look around or anything, wink wink, nudge nudge.” I’ll give you one point that I think supports your argument: Dumbledore was not mad that Harry got poking his head into the Pensieve, and I personally would be pissed if someone just started looking around in my memories without my permission, so I give you that.

Laura: Yeah. He also says, “I quite understand.”

Andrew: “… the need to be nosy.” [laughs]

Laura: [laughs] And then, “Undoubtedly I did not fasten the cabinet door properly. Naturally, it would have attracted your attention,” and “Curiosity is not a sin.” Come on, man.

Micah: So I’ll defend Dumbledore a little bit here…

Laura: No. [laughs] I’m kidding.

Micah: … because Harry is looking at all these things that have assisted him previously within Dumbledore’s office, right? He’s looking at Fawkes, then he goes over and he sees the Sorting Hat, and then it’s in the reflection of the sword of Gryffindor that he notices this light that’s coming from this cabinet. So I’m not saying Dumbledore didn’t leave the latch open, but maybe it’s actually the magic that’s actually assisting him here. Maybe it’s all those things that have helped Harry in the past. Remember, “Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who need it.” I don’t know. I’m not putting this all on Dumbledore. Harry is nosy; remember, we called him out for that…

Laura: He is.

Micah: … for the last several chapters.

Andrew: Dumbledore would also know that he’s nosy and might poke around, so I’m just falling onto Laura’s side as I talk this through. But…

Laura: Yeah, I just think it’s very convenient that we also see Bertha Jorkins towards the end of this sequence where Dumbledore is explaining the Pensieve to him, and we also see Karkaroff talking about the Dark Mark that he and Snape both share. And I mean, the fact that this trial is the queued-up memory that Dumbledore was looking at…

Andrew: [laughs] Well, he’s got a lot to consider right now.

Laura: He does, he does. But also, I think that he respects Harry, and I think that he thinks Harry is really mature, so I don’t think it’s out of left field to say that he had a hand in setting this up.

Morgan: I don’t necessarily think it was also a bad thing that he did that. I think Dumbledore is starting to struggle with how much to tell Harry and how much to not tell him, because he knows that there’s a lot going on and a lot of history that Harry has to learn eventually, and maybe he just doesn’t know when is the right time to start and this is a convenient place to start opening that door.

Laura: And we definitely see him open the door to certain topics. At this point in the series we don’t know anything about Horcruxes or even that they exist, but he’s kind of testing the waters by starting to float some theories, so I think it’s fair.

Micah: One of the things that I wanted to call attention to, because it’s referenced several times in this chapter, is just how old Dumbledore appears, and the chapter actually ends, the last paragraph of the chapter, saying that Dumbledore was “looking older than ever.” And I’m curious why we feel the author is drawing attention to this specifically in this moment. Is it to suggest the severity of the situation and everything that’s been going on with the Triwizard Tournament? Or is it really to humanize Dumbledore, to kind of pull back the curtain on this godlike figure, right? The Yoda, the Gandalf of this particular series, and show that Dumbledore is human after all?

Morgan: I think it’s also showing that Harry is growing up because he’s starting to see the flaws in Dumbledore and see that he’s aging, and it reminds me of when kids start to realize their parents are human and they have flaws and they start to grow up into that, and I think that’s happening pretty early for Harry because of everything that he’s experienced.

Andrew: Yeah, and I imagine Dumbledore has been lacking sleep in recent weeks and months. And I think spending an extended time with Dumbledore in his private quarters is a space where you’re going to see Dumbledore without his stage face on, so to speak. If you see him across the way in the Great Hall at the head of the table…

Micah: He’s got his makeup on.

Andrew: Yeah, and he’s on, he’s energized, he’s presenting to the crowd. Here he’s stressed about a situation he hasn’t quite cracked yet. There’s obviously major issues afoot under his nose at the castle, and he hasn’t figured them out yet; it’s got to be stressing him out. He’s responsible for all these kids. So when I read that line, “looking older than ever,” what I think the main issue is – the reason why Dumbledore is looking older than ever in this moment – is because he’s just really worried and stumped here.

Laura: I will say, Morgan, I like your point if we’re thinking about it as foreshadowing for Book 5, for what’s coming, because Harry is about to learn a whole lot about how imperfect Dumbledore is, and honestly, he’s not even going to get the half of it for another couple of books. [laughs] Well, we’re going to go dive into Dumbledore’s Pensieve and see if we can find Dumbledore’s memory of leaving the Pensieve cabinet open…

Andrew: Ooh, fun. [laughs]

Laura: … so that I can prove my theory for once and for all. We’ll be right back.

[Morgan laughs]

[Ad break]

Laura: Speaking of Harry being nosy, he ends up falling face first into the Pensieve because he’s really trying to see what’s going on in this courtroom that he’s looking down at from a bird’s eye view, and he ends up tumbling into the courtroom. He’s seated on a bench, and he already sees some familiar faces, and some new ones that are going to become really important in the next book. So the familiar ones are Dumbledore, Moody, Crouch Senior, and Rita Skeeter, but we also see certain Death Eaters who are going to become a lot more prevalent in the next book, like namely Bellatrix Lestrange. We don’t even get her by name, but just by physical description we know who this character is and who she will be. But what do we think about the wizarding justice system?

Micah: We get our first real taste of it and the inherent biases that are present and just how the system really works into that. It actually falls in line, Laura, with what you were just saying, because we’re going to get a real taste of it in the next book with Harry, and he’s actually going to be in the exact same room that we’re dropping into in the Pensieve, so it’s just really fascinating to see how wizards do justice. And we get very different examples of it with the three different memories that we go into, or I should say the three different suspects that go on trial. The justice is very different for each of them.

Laura: Yeah, as are the biases being held by Crouch Senior and the jury. But speaking of things that I also saw as foreshadowing for the next book, there’s this moment where Harry, he’s seated next to memory Dumbledore, who has no awareness that he’s there, can’t see him. And Harry, to prove his theory, decides to wave his arms madly in front of Dumbledore’s face and thought, “Okay, this is not present day Dumbledore, because he would never ignore me.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That thought ages like milk.

Micah: [laughs] Just you wait.

Morgan: Part of me, every time I’ve read that, I still always wonder maybe Dumbledore did see Harry and had some sort of weird magical powers where he was able to do that. I still… part of me always thinks that.

Laura: I mean, I think it would be an interesting theory to examine. I don’t think that we’ve seen quite enough of people interacting with and being in memories to know for sure if that would be possible, but I mean, if it was going to be possible for anyone, Dumbledore would be the guy.

Andrew: Doesn’t that seem like that could bring up time traveling issues, though? If somebody’s coming in via a Pensieve in a memory, and then you’re wondering, “Well, why are you here?” I don’t know. I think it’s best this way that nobody in the memory could see the person trying to relive the memory.

Laura: What happens if you break the rules of time travel and you go back in time to change something, but you’re seen by the people who made up that memory? Does the memory change because of the time travel that happened? Or was the memory always that way because the time travel always happened?

Andrew: [laughs] This is the exact issue with the time travel stuff.

[Morgan laughs]

Laura: Yep, that’s the problem. Time travel is messy.

Morgan: Paradox. This is when I go to Reddit to try to understand all of it.

Laura: Speaking of understanding, Morgan, it seems like having a Pensieve would be pretty helpful.

Morgan: Oh my God, yes. I can’t imagine being able to have one of those in the therapy room and be like, “Okay, let’s go look at these memories and examine them and see if we can notice any patterns and what’s going on so that we can make changes now.” I think it’s just such a cool feature, and I think it’s so symbolic to be able to go back and look and examine things from somewhat of an objective point of view, because I’m sure even if multiple people go to the same memory, they still would view things differently. But I just think it’s such a cool thing to have to help understand our own patterns.

Andrew: It also raises the question of how accurate are these memories? They’re accurate from your own perspective, from your own memory, but once you pull it out, I guess it’s sort of locked in permanently. That memory won’t fade because then it’s in the Pensieve being put on ice, if you will.

Morgan: Yeah. Is the memory then gone from our head? How does that work?

Andrew: See, I don’t think so.

Laura: I’ve always wondered that.

Andrew: I don’t think so, because then how would you know that you could go and retrieve it?

[Morgan laughs]

Micah: That’s a really good point.

Laura: Yeah. Or maybe it is still in your head, but because you removed it, as soon as you had it, the memory is untarnished from the initial event. Because don’t they always say that when you’re remembering something, you’re not actually remembering that thing; you’re just remembering the last time you remembered it?

Micah: The last time, exactly. I wonder, though, about the ability to manipulate memories, because we see what happens when Slughorn tries to do it. And so I’m wondering if the memory really is from anyone’s perspective, is it an actual reflection of what happened in that moment? Because otherwise, Slughorn wouldn’t be able to mess with it the way we see him do it in Half-Blood Prince. Does that make sense?

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I’m wondering if we ever did an episode on Pensieves because… [laughs] like, just a whole episode discussing them in particular.

Laura: We have to have.

Micah: We must’ve.

Andrew: I’m googling; I can’t find it.

Laura: Yeah, I think we… I mean, I know we’ve discussed the Pensieve quite a bit, and I mean, even within this chapter there are probably more ways than one that we could see a Pensieve being used, and we only get to see it used in the one instance where Harry is using it. And literally in a trial, something like a Pensieve would come in pretty clutch, but nobody’s using that.

Andrew: HedwigsTheme in our Discord said, “Micah, JKR said, ‘Yes, it’s an accurate reflection of what happened, despite what the person noticed at the time.'”

Micah: Nice. Plus one.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I know she said it, but…

Andrew: Doesn’t make it true. [laughs]

Micah: She’s said a lot of things.

[Morgan laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but also, there’s no such thing as an objective or accurate memory because we’re all biased. Agree to disagree there. So Harry, over the course of being in this courtroom, sees three different trials, and they’re clearly not all in the same day or even close to each other time-wise, because I think we see Crouch Senior getting a little older and seeming a little more haggard towards the end of these. But the first one he sees is none other than Karkaroff’s, and this guy – this should come as no surprise to anyone – sings like a freaking canary.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: He wants out of Azkaban, he wants away from the Dementors, and he is – according to him – completely repentant, ashamed that he ever allied himself with Voldemort, and willing to throw anyone he can under the bus.

Micah: [laughs] Laura…

Laura: Unfortunately… say what?

Micah: You made me think, when you were saying “sing like a canary,” I’m envisioning Karkaroff saying these Death Eater names like the Pokémon rap.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I thought you were picturing Karkaroff’s head on a canary. AI art, where you at?

Micah: Oh, well, we can get that done; don’t worry. I’ll take care of that.

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Laura: Yeah. Oh God, please no; that sounds horrifying. But unfortunately, Karkaroff tries to throw out names like Dolohov, Rosier, Mulciber, Travers, even Snape, and Crouch doesn’t care about any of these because they’re either all already cleared, apprehended, or dead. But Karkaroff does strike gold by naming Augustus Rookwood of the Department of Mysteries, and this is where when I was rereading this chapter, I had to go digging in the Harry Potter fandom wiki and jumping around in the books to be like, “How the hell was Barty Crouch, Jr. found out?” Because it’s a movie-ism that Karkaroff names Barty Crouch, Jr., but I could have swore that in the books the Rookwood connection somehow led to the revelation about who tortured the Longbottoms. But we find out later that Crouch Junior was accompanied by Bellatrix as well as Rodolphus and Rabastan Lestrange, so Rookwood wasn’t there. And it kind of broke my brain for a moment because I was certain that Karkaroff’s testimony in some way led to the Crouch Junior revelation; not as directly as in the movies, but I thought there was some subtle connection there.

Micah: Why that works so well, too, is in all of what we see here in these series of trials, all of these individuals are now present at Hogwarts in the present day. Karkaroff, Bagman, and then Barty Crouch, Jr.; we just don’t know that Moody is Barty Crouch, Jr. right now. So it’s actually really masterfully written that in these three trials, we’re getting the three main suspects as to who could have put Harry’s name into the Goblet of Fire. These are the three people… in one case, we don’t know we’ve been paying attention to him the whole time, but Karkaroff has been a major suspect. Bagman has been kind of on the outskirts; his suspect level has risen and fallen at times. And then you get to Barty Crouch, Jr., but again, the other masterful piece of writing here is that his name is never mentioned.

Laura: True.

Micah: And I think that had it been, you probably would have ended up with Harry possibly coming to a realization much sooner about, “Oh, the Marauder’s Map, I saw Barty Crouch on there; maybe it wasn’t Senior,” and on it goes. But if I can just bring up for a second, there’s a huge reveal here that I think even in the writing is just so glossed over, and that is that Snape is a Death Eater, or he was.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And it’s not even… it doesn’t even land. Harry brings it up later in the chapter, but it doesn’t create… I don’t know. And maybe it’s because I already knew, but it wasn’t a blow you away type of moment.

Andrew: No, it should give Harry a lot of pause, too, and he should be taking a second to be like, “Whoa. Wait, really? One of my teachers is/was a Death Eater?”

Morgan: It just shows how much he trusts Dumbledore.

Laura: Yeah, and how it really isn’t a surprise to hear that.

Andrew: Well, that’s true too. I mean, Harry despises Snape so much that I guess it’s like, “Oh, who could have been surprised?”

Laura: Yeah. It is kind of surprising that Harry doesn’t have more vindication about this, though, and I think it’s just because Dumbledore probably wouldn’t allow it, at least not outwardly. But we were just talking about Ludo Bagman, too, so we’re going to talk about his trial next, and this is really a clear example of where the rules of justice are being bent in favor of a celebrity. I mean, we see this jury very quick to boo anything critical being stated or asked of Ludo Bagman, and I’m wondering if the jury would have cut him this much slack if he weren’t a famous Quidditch player.

Morgan: Definitely not.

Andrew: Well, and this is… you asked about the justice system in the wizarding world a few minutes ago. How does jury selection work? Because if they were interviewed and they found out that these jury members were fanboys, basically, of Ludo Bagman, they should have been kicked off the jury. They shouldn’t be allowed to participate in the trial. So it seems like there really isn’t any jury selection process that’s really vetting these potential candidates.

Laura: No.

Micah: Isn’t this just before the entire Wizengamot? These are Ministry officials, right? They’re not jury members.

Laura: Well, they’re described as a jury, though.

Andrew: I get… yeah. That term, I guess, could be used loosely.

Micah: Maybe. I have to go back and look at it.

Andrew: But still, even the people who are making the decision, they should be vetted before being a member of this group who’s getting to vote. Or I don’t know, it’s just… it’s so unfair. [laughs] It’s such an unfair trial.

Micah: Well, is it any different than in the next book when Dumbledore strolls in and he’s got his favorites out in the crowd who are waving at him?

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Laura: Yeah, very true.

Micah: I don’t know what to make of Ludo’s trial, to be honest with you. I mean, the allegations are serious for sure, but it just goes to show you, though, that you can use your personality and your fame to your advantage, and that’s exactly what he does here. Who knows the truth, if he’s actually guilty or not? Maybe he did knowingly pass information along.

Morgan: I just think that whole situation is wild, and it just reminded me that I hope I never commit a crime where I have to depend on a jury of my peers, because I would be so afraid of what could potentially happen. And I mean, I just think it’s so strange that they let Barty Crouch, Sr. still preside over all of that.

Andrew: Yeah, there’s a major conflict of interest. But in terms of Ludo, he said he didn’t know that Rookwood was a Death Eater, but Rookwood had been a friend of Ludo’s dad and had persuaded Ludo into giving him the information by talking about getting Ludo a job at the Ministry, so I think the excuse that, “Oh, I passed along this information because Rookwood was my dad’s friend,” I can buy it, personally. I can see why you might be fooled.

Laura: Yeah, but let me ask this: Do we think Ludo deserved some kind of consequence for this? I mean, people are convicted of crimes of negligence all the time, and we know that the wizarding world’s justice system really doesn’t stack up against our own. And I mean, I’m not saying that ours is perfect; it’s not. But there’s a lot of bias, I think, that we see in this chapter, in the way these trials are run, and I guess I just feel like Ludo deserved some kind of consequence, potentially, like a fine, even, for damages.

Micah: Well, we know he can’t pay it.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: He’s going to go swindle somebody out of money.

Laura: But back then he was still famous, a famous Quidditch player, still top of his game. He might have been able to.

Micah: It makes me wonder, too, how old was he when he was passing this information along to Rookwood? Was he a teenager? Because he says his dad’s friend, it lends me to believe that maybe it was… was he an apprentice of sorts?

Andrew: “I was young and dumb.”

Laura: I read it as young, but not teenager young, just because again, he is an internationally famous Quidditch player, so I thought maybe young to mid 20s.

Morgan: Yeah, I thought that too.

Micah: I just think it’s really very dangerous the way that he’s put on trial, because what better way to hide in plain sight than to be this celebrity and get off based on your celebrity status? And I think we learn that he really didn’t have anything to do with the Death Eaters or Harry’s name entering the Goblet of Fire. I think by including him in these trials, it still allows the air of suspicion to linger over him for at least another chapter or two…

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: … until we get the big reveal, which we’re going to get. So I think it was good writing.

Andrew: But also, I wanted to ask this question later, but I’ll raise it now: What was Dumbledore thinking by wanting to relive this memory, or by wanting Harry to relive the memory? Where is Dumbledore’s mind here? If Dumbledore is running through three suspects in the Pensieve, then presumably he thinks any one of the three could be causing trouble at school, and he also wants Harry to know about what these guys were up to. Allegedly.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s very telling that he chose to go back and look at these three trials, given, again, who is at Hogwarts and who’s been offering to help Harry with every single task that’s come along too.

Andrew: True.

Laura: I mean, it’s funny, because I remember the first time I read Goblet of Fire, I didn’t really pick up any suspicions for Ludo Bagman, but with fresh eyes now, it’s very clear that he was intended to be some kind of red herring. I don’t know; I feel like he’s almost too lame to have actually been the bad guy. [laughs]

Micah: But I think you’re right, Laura, it’s a way to show the reader that, hey, all the players were involved back then, and all the same players are now involved here in present day. Even Rita Skeeter is there, right, at Ludo’s trial? Specifically she’s called out at Ludo’s trial, so I often wonder is there something there? We talked about it back when they showed up in the Three Broomsticks and there was that passing conversation between the two of them, or there was some mention that that happened, and so I wonder, was Rita a fan, a super fan of Ludo Bagman?

Andrew: [laughs] Probably.

Micah: Because how young is she in this moment? Is she already a journalist or…? What’s she doing there?

Morgan: She also probably knows that people will be really interested in his trial and what happened there, so she knows how to get the scoop.

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: And she definitely had her Quick Quotes Quill with her as well, so I think she was definitely reporting on it.

Andrew: Maybe a budding journalist.

Laura: Yeah. But it definitely adds context to the conversation she had with Ludo in Hogsmeade a few chapters ago. When you think about her having that conversation with him, and even if she doesn’t directly say it, knowing that there’s an undercurrent of, “I was at your trial, remember? You probably don’t want people to remember that that was a thing you had to do, right?” [laughs]

Micah: I really want to ask the same question that Andrew just asked about Ludo’s trial, with the trial that we have coming up: What did Dumbledore hope to gain out of looking at the trial of Barty Crouch, Jr.?

Laura: Well, we will get to that in just a moment, but first we have to stand trial for our own crimes, so we’re going to be judged by a jury of our peers – here’s hoping that they’re easy on us – but we’ll be right back.

[Ad break]

Laura: As Micah alluded to before the break, we get the real gut punch of this chapter, which is Crouch Junior – who we don’t hear referred to as Barty Crouch, Jr. – along with Bellatrix, Rodolphus, and Rabastan Lestrange, are put on trial for the torture of the Longbottoms. The latter three that I mentioned are currently unnamed, like I think I said earlier, but it’s clear that they were established very prominently because they were going to be important in the future books. Bellatrix is even described as sitting on her chair like it was a throne, even though she’s literally chained to it. So I wanted to ask this question of everyone, because I paged through the books and it was really difficult to find a clear cut answer to this: How was it actually determined that Crouch Junior took part in the torture of the Longbottoms? How do we know for sure that he did that? Because there’s no evidence presented in this trial.

Andrew: And I think Dumbledore says in this chapter, because of the state of the Longbottoms, they were bad witnesses. [laughs]

Laura: Well, and Harry asks him, “Did he actually do it?” And Dumbledore says, “I don’t know.”

Andrew: Micah asked why was Dumbledore reliving this memory; maybe this is part of it. He wants to relive this trial to get another look at Senior and Junior, how they were acting towards each other in the trial. He maybe wanted to see what Senior was really looking like when he was sentencing his son, putting him in Azkaban. Was he faking it? Was this all a ploy? Did they have greater plans in mind, Junior and Senior?

Micah: Let’s not forget that Mrs. Crouch is also there, too, during this trial.

Andrew: “I didn’t do it, Mother! Mommy, it wasn’t me!”

Laura: Yeah, and you can read the pain in those attempts for him trying to reach out to his mother to get his dad to reconsider, and his mom ultimately faints at the point of his sentencing, a lifelong sentence in Azkaban.

Micah: I’m almost wondering if Barty Crouch, Jr. was guilt by association, just given who he’s being put on trial with. When you think about Bellatrix and the Lestranges, these are top level Death Eaters. Even Bellatrix says a little bit later on as she’s being escorted out, straight to Crouch’s face, “The Dark Lord will rise again.” And I don’t think Barty, at least at this moment – Junior – has any clue what he’s really gotten himself into. I think it changes in the moment where Crouch responds, basically saying “You’re no son of mine,” and that’s the solidifying piece of it, but it’s hard to say. I don’t know if Barty Crouch, Jr. was just initiated through what happened to the Longbottoms; maybe he was forced to do things by Bellatrix and the others that he didn’t want to do. I’m not trying to absolve him of anything here, but in that moment where you see the father/son interaction and him really just pleading for help, I think it could be guilt by association.

Laura: Yeah, that’s kind of my headcanon, too, especially when we think about Crouch Senior’s reputation and what was at stake for him at the time. Because remember, he was a candidate, a serious candidate, for Minister of Magic, and having his son be implicated in connection with three of the most horrible Death Eaters is not a good look for the tough on crime guy at the Ministry. So we can’t know for sure what happened, but I think if Crouch Junior got wrapped up in something that was way bigger than he was and that he was naive and ignorant about, I could see Crouch Senior throwing the book at him anyway. And we do have to remember, too, Crouch Junior is like, 18/19 at this point; he’s just out of Hogwarts. And as Micah said, it doesn’t excuse any of it; that’s old enough to know better than to get caught up in that kind of thing, but I think there’s context, especially in the type of father that Crouch Senior is, that can point us to understanding why Crouch Junior might have sought acceptance somewhere else.

Micah: I’ll be honest; I don’t remember exactly what he says in the Veritaserum chapter where you learn pretty much everything you’re going to learn about Barty Crouch, Jr., but yeah. I mean, I even think back to the way he treats Neville in this book, and is that him trying to redeem himself in some way? We talk a lot about how he likes to play with his food throughout the course of this book, but he also has these moments where you’re scratching your head a little bit, and you’re saying to yourself, “Is he really that bad?”

Laura: Yeah, he’s a complex character; that’s what makes him so compelling to read. What do you think, Morgan? I’m curious for your professional opinion on this potential dynamic impact that might have landed Barty Crouch, Jr. here.

Morgan: If somebody has a parent who’s very strict and structured, it is really normal for the kids to place high expectations on themselves and then never feel accepted, and so it’s easy for them to be more susceptible to other people who will show that acceptance. So I could totally see him sort of just falling in line with a crowd that showed acceptance that he was really hoping for, and then getting caught up in it, and then getting convicted, and then it just spiraling from there. I felt kind of bad for him.

Andrew: And so looking at all these memories together, just to recap “Where is Dumbledore’s mind right now?” like I asked a few minutes ago. So he can’t get the Ministry on his side; we definitely see that in this chapter. Can he trust Karkaroff? Is that something that’s going through his mind right now?

Laura: Oh, for sure.

Andrew: Suspecting Ludo as well? Or at least wants Harry to know that he should be suspicious of him. Can he trust Crouch, even with his conviction when sentencing his own son? And by that, I mean it was a firm sentencing; he wasn’t wavering about it. He was like, “You’re going to Azkaban, son, who’s no son of mine. Sorry.” And the last thing I think he’s wondering is, “Where’s that pizza that I ordered?”

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Hey, where’s the pizza I ordered? It’s Harry knocking, but where’s the pizza?”

Micah: Does it get dropped into the Pensieve as well?

[Morgan laughs]

Andrew: Oh, that would be a crying shame. I don’t think so. I hope not.

Laura: He wants to remember that pizza forever.

Micah: Can you eat in the memory? Or no, you’ve got to eat outside the memory.

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: The pizza falls into the Pensieve and lands on Barty Crouch, Jr.’s head. [laughs] He’s like, “Oh, I’m going to Azkaban, but at least I got some pizza.”

Laura: Don’t you think he would be like, “What’s this?”

[Andrew and Morgan laugh]

Laura: I’ve never seen pizza in Harry Potter ever. And he’s a pure-blood wizard; what exposure is he going to have to Muggle food?

Andrew: True.

Laura: Well, after all of these… basically this info-dump of memories of these trials, Dumbledore does return to his office. And he pulls Harry out of the Pensieve and they do a little bit of a Pensieve recap, which is what we covered towards the top of the episode, talking about what the Pensieve does, how Dumbledore uses it to keep his memories organized, which actually, Morgan, I think you caught on to that when you were thinking about how could we use this in therapy to identify patterns? Dumbledore is doing exactly that here, and he’s trying to identify patterns with the fallout of the first wizarding war to explain why what’s happening now is happening. From there, Harry recaps the dream he had in the last chapter to Dumbledore, and learns that Dumbledore already knew about the dream because Dumbledore is also nosy and he’s corresponding with Sirius as well. But when Harry suggests to Dumbledore that the dream felt so real, Dumbledore is starting to put together the pieces around his Horcrux theory. And while he doesn’t give it all away to Harry, he definitely shares some of his suspicions.

Andrew: “I have a theory, no more than that… It is my belief that your scar hurts both when Lord Voldemort is near you, and when he is feeling a particularly strong surge of hatred.”

Laura: “But… why?”

Andrew: “Because you and he are connected by the curse that failed. That is no ordinary scar.”

Laura: And so he’s kind of telling Harry that he’s a Horcrux at this point without telling him that he thinks he’s a Horcrux. How well put together do we think Dumbledore has this at this point in the series?

Andrew: Well, he does preface it with “It’s no more than a theory.” Maybe he’s just trying to cushion the blow for Harry, because if he is certain and he says it without, “Just a guess, I don’t know for sure, don’t shoot the messenger,” type thing. But I’m willing to believe that he hasn’t completely put the pieces together. He’s not 100% certain that Harry is a Horcrux.

Morgan: And maybe he doesn’t want to accept that, because then he knows what it means, and he’s in denial.

Andrew: Yeah. And going back to that line earlier where Dumbledore is described as looking older than ever, I mean, on one hand, he could be looking older than ever because he just realized Harry is a Horcrux and he hasn’t been sleeping. He’s been losing sleep over it. On the other hand, he’s looking older than ever because he still hasn’t cracked this mystery wide open yet.

Laura: Well, Dumbledore is still on the path of trying to discover the truth behind this mystery, and part of it is him drawing connections based on Harry’s latest dream and the times and locations of certain disappearances, and he basically says, “Harry, Voldemort’s rise to power last time was really marked by strange disappearances that were happening in places that were closely connected to Voldemort.” And here is where we get the first mention of Frank Bryce since Chapter 1 of this book. And Dumbledore says here that he just learned about this by reading the Muggle newspapers, and he makes the connection that Frank Bryce lived in Voldemort’s dad’s town, but he doesn’t state the connection that Frank Bryce was actually the groundskeeper for the Riddle house. Does Dumbledore not have that context? Is he missing that?

Andrew: You would think Dumbledore has maybe done some research here, whether it’s going to the town itself and asking around or, I don’t know, hearing through other ways. But I could picture him going to the town, asking around, and finding out that Frank actually did care for the Riddle property. Seems like some easy information to come across.

Micah: Right. There’s a huge difference between just being somebody from Voldemort’s old hood, and being the one who actually lived on his family property.

Laura: He also brings up Bertha Jorkins, who, of course, that disappearance is also very recent, and mentions that she vanished in the place that Voldemort was last known to be, which was Albania. And then, of course, covers Crouch Senior disappearing on the Hogwarts grounds. I don’t understand why this isn’t a huge red flag that they’ve been infiltrated. Dumbledore says it almost in passing; he’s like, “And Crouch Senior, which happened right here…” It’s like, you’re going to let this third task go on when these strange disappearances that you think are linked to Voldemort are happening, and one of them happened on your grounds? But how are we feeling about Dumbledore at this point?

Morgan: Yeah, this chapter was when I started realizing, “Okay, maybe I’ll cut Dumbledore some slack,” because I know a lot of people don’t like him and what he did with Harry, but I think he was as open as he could be. He was answering Harry’s questions, but he also was keeping in mind Harry is still 14, which was wild for me to realize as I was reading it again. I’m like, “Oh, wow.” Thinking about 14-year-olds now, that’s so young. But Dumbledore, I think, was doing a good job balancing giving information but not giving too much, so I feel for Dumbledore, because he probably doesn’t know how to handle this accurately or in the healthiest way possible.

Andrew: And meanwhile, Harry is about to compete in the third task. He doesn’t need extra stress on top of the Triwizard Tournament and his own stress that comes with this mystery that he’s been trying to figure out himself.

Laura: You know what else he doesn’t need? He doesn’t need to participate in the third task.

[Morgan laughs]

Laura: There doesn’t need to be a third task, or…

Andrew: There really shouldn’t be.

Laura: Do we really believe at this point that the Goblet would smite Harry and all the other champions if they canceled the tournament?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, a reasonable headmaster or team of people running this cup, this tournament, would be like, “Out of an abundance of caution -” isn’t that the phrase that’s so often used? ” – we have decided to postpone the Triwizard Tournament.” At least postpone it. You don’t have to cancel it; just put it on ice for a little while.

Laura: Yeah, just do like they did with student loans for four years and just be like, “Meh.”

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Laura: “Don’t worry about those.” [laughs]

Andrew: But I also wonder if Dumbledore… if we’re still going along with your theory that Dumbledore wanted Harry to look in the Pensieve, I wonder if Dumbledore wanted Harry to have all this information right before the third task. Maybe he thought it would better prepare him in case something went awry at the third task, but that’s a pretty messed up thought because it’s like, well, Dumbledore actually thought something might happen at the third task. The next chapter is the third task. This is happening right before then.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: So I don’t want to think Dumbledore is giving it to him right before the third task on purpose to better prepare him, but I don’t know. The timing is a little interesting too. Now, of course, Harry did decide to go up there because he just had the dream, so there’s also that.

Micah: Part of me thinks that Dumbledore knows that shit’s about to go down because he even says, “Good luck in the third task.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I know.

Micah: Like, good luck? Sorry. [imitating Dumbledore] “Good luck in the…” I don’t know. I don’t do it as well as Andrew.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore intensely] “Good luck in the third task!”

Micah: There you go.

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Laura: No, that’s Trelawney.

Micah: [imitating Dumbledore calmly] “Good luck in the third task.”

Laura: You’ve got to say it with a little bit of sass, though.

Micah: Like a twinkle, yeah.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore like a game show host] “Good luck in the third task.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: That’s more like Ludo Bagman.

Laura: I hope nothing bad happens.

Andrew: You know what? I’m not a paid voice actor. I don’t need these notes, y’all. I’m giving it to you for free how I want to give it to you.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Beggars can’t be choosers.

Laura: Well, this chapter ends on a bit of a somber note with Harry realizing why Neville was raised by his grandmother. He didn’t think to ask about it until he saw the trial about what happened to the Longbottoms and until he talks to Dumbledore. So Dumbledore does ask Harry – and I think this is one of those great Dumbledore moments – he says, “Please don’t tell anyone about Neville’s parents; it’s his right to decide when he wants to tell people.”

Andrew: It’s a heartbreaking moment.

Laura: It is.

Andrew: Because Harry…

Morgan: My heart breaks for Neville.

Laura: Morgan, if you had to give Dumbledore a score based on how he handled that, 10 out of 10 or…?

Morgan: Yeah, 10 out of 10.

Laura: Cool.

Morgan: Respecting Neville’s boundaries.

Andrew: And Morgan and I will give him more props in a couple of minutes. But it’s also heartbreaking, because Neville’s parents are alive, but not. Harry’s parents are dead, and very much dead. And I guess Harry can almost see that they have this connection. Yeah, Neville’s parents are still breathing, but he’s lost them too.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: And I mean, honestly, what happened to Neville’s parents is worse in a way. Not to play the tragedy Olympics here, but…

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “A fate worse than death.”

Laura: They’re trapped in their bodies and they’ve lost their sanity.

Morgan: Yeah, and Neville really didn’t get to say goodbye.

Andrew: And he still doesn’t get to say goodbye.

Laura: Well, and he never gets to see his parents as they were, because he was also a baby when this happened to them. So this is all he’s ever known, is having to visit his parents in the hospital.

Odds & Ends

Laura: All right. Well, we’re going to try to pep ourselves up by looking at a couple of odds and ends. We mentioned earlier that Dumbledore has been corresponding with Sirius, but we also learn that Dumbledore suggested his current hiding place in the cave out on the skirts of Hogsmeade. And he’s just so matter of fact about it with Harry by being like, “Yeah, you’re not the only one who writes to Sirius. What of it?”

[Micah and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. And of course, Sirius wants to talk to Dumbledore, too, to make sure he’s getting as much information as possible.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: And I wonder if Dumbledore ever uses this cave for anything himself. Is this a place for him to go relax and read and get away from all the kids?

Micah: Uh-huh. Hook up.

Andrew: Hook up, yeah.

Morgan: The stress of the school. [laughs]

Laura: I think Sirius has better things to do.

Andrew: Dumbledore, you mean?

Micah: Than what?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No, than hook up in the cave.

Micah: No, we were talking about Dumbledore.

Andrew: How did Dumbledore know about this cave?

Laura: Oh, oh, sorry. Oh yeah, he and Grindelwald definitely christened that cave.

Andrew: Ooh!

Micah: I just wanted to call out Harry for calling out Fudge on his prejudice. He does this at the beginning of the chapter when he had overheard Fudge’s comments in the prior chapter about Madame Maxime possibly being the one who stunned Krum and did something to Barty Crouch, Sr., and Harry says something along the lines, “Well, I think we would have noticed if she was lingering around. She’s kind of tall, so…”

Andrew: Takes some guts to stand up to the Minister of Magic.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. And I think it’s going to be the first of many moments for Harry. He’s getting in some practice shots now, because he’s really going to need to stand up to them in the future.

MVP of the Week

Andrew: All right, well, it’s time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Micah: My MVP goes to Moody’s real eye.

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Micah: I think it’s the only time it appears in the series. And of course, I’m talking about the one that is eventually covered up by the magical eye. But it’s noted that Moody has both of them in this chapter.

Laura: So this is a rare one for me: I’m actually going to give it to Harry. I feel like this never happens. I think Harry is someone who proves the old adage “Curiosity killed the cat” wrong, because not this cat. Harry has always got his nose into something, and somehow he manages to come out of it clean as a whistle. So good for you, Harry. Thanks for the exposition.

Morgan: I’ll give it to Dumbledore, and Harry was a close second, but I think Dumbledore was just so patient and calm, and I think he is doing the best that he can do with the information that he has, so I loved his explanations.

Andrew: Yeah, the way he handled Harry visiting his memories, like you said, he was very calm. Harry was asking a lot of questions that he answered very well. And talking about, just a few minutes ago, how he handled explaining the Longbottoms to Harry too. I mean, I thought Dumbledore was just masterful in this chapter, so I plus one this MVP of the week choice.

Micah: Masterfully vague.

[Morgan laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to, or you can call us with an old school telephone. The number is 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. We do prefer the voice memos; they sound much better audio quality-wise. And no matter how you call us, please keep your message around a minute so that we can fit in as many voicemails as possible in a future Muggle Mail installment. And next week – ugh – Goblet of Fire Chapter 31, “The Third Task” in which no one saw this coming.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Fakey did.

Andrew: The important people who could have stopped it didn’t see it coming.

[Micah laughs]


Andrew: So now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Micah: All right, last week’s Quizzitch question: At Ludo Bagman’s trial, what Quidditch match does a jury member congratulate him on? And the correct answer was England versus Turkey. Last week’s winners include Buff Daddy; Dumby + Pizza Hut = happiness…

[Andrew gasps]

[Laura and Morgan laugh]

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “That is so true.”

Micah: … Elizabeth K.; I fall asleep listening to Jim Dale every night is that bad?; hot-goat-summer; How did Buckbeak get into Sirius’s cave because the opening was barely big enough for the trio…

Andrew: Huh.

Micah: … I only remember the answer because of the way Jim Dale says “Turkey” in the audiobook…

[Morgan laughs]

Micah: That’s not how he says it. Well, actually, I’ve never listened, so I don’t know. Jenpen1013; Knock the stuffing out of the Turkey with a rogue Bludger; Ooh, I heard it through the Snapevine…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … Quaffle and waffle; and Robbie.

Andrew: I heard he actually screams “Turkey” in the audiobook; that’s why it sticks with people. It’s just so random.

Micah: Oh.

Andrew: He’s just like, “England versus TURKEY!”

Micah: [laughs] Does he say it in that New Jersey accent?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh my God, never accuse me of having a New Jersey accent again.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: All right, next week’s Quizzitch question: Which Weasley family members are not present for the third task? You must list them all. And of course, you can submit your answers over at

Andrew: This show is brought to you by Muggles like you and Morgan. Thanks for joining us again today, Morgan, and thanks for your support on Patreon. We really appreciate it.

Morgan: Oh, thank you. This was so much fun. Thank you for having me.

Andrew: We thankfully don’t have a Ministry of Magic or a Fudge running this show; we’re just everyday Muggles conjuring an independent podcast, but that means we need support from listeners like you. So how can you help us out? If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, you can subscribe to MuggleCast Gold, which gets you ad-free and early access to MuggleCast, plus two bonus MuggleCast installments every month, including one we’re about to record after today’s episode. Check out the last bonus MuggleCast released last week, too, in which we’re discussing the latest video game news. So there’s that, but then there’s also, and don’t forget, you can get our new 19 Years Later T-shirt, only available by pledging at the Slug Club level at before July 19. And don’t forget that you also need to fill out that form. New and existing patrons must fill out the order form, because we’ve got to know your address and we’ve got to know your shirt size. We got shirts for everyone, and we got sizes from extra small to 5XL. So there will be a shirt for everyone, but we need you to fill out that form with peace and love, peace and love. July 19 for the 19 Years Later T-shirt. Thank you with peace and love.

Micah: Peace and love.

[Morgan laughs]

Andrew: And thanks again for your support! We couldn’t do it without you.

Micah: And just a quick reminder, in a few weeks from now, Eric, Chloé, and myself will be at LeakyCon, July 5-7, taking place at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. We have some dates and times to share with you all, so if you’re going to be out in Portland, please join us for the MuggleCast meetup, which is taking place on Friday, July 5. Then we also have a podcaster mega panel and a live MuggleCast taking place on Saturday, and to close out the convention, a joint LeakyMug with Pottercast on Sunday, July 7. For all the information related to the convention, head over to, and if you haven’t registered yet, you can do so using code “Muggle” to get a nice little discount on your tickets.

Andrew: Visit for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and more. And Morgan, where can listeners find your podcast, That Nerd Thing?

Morgan: They could find it anywhere that they listen to podcasts, and then you can also follow the show on social media at @ThatNerdThingPod.

Andrew: Well, thanks again, Morgan. And thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Morgan: And I’m Morgan.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Micah and Morgan: Bye.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] Bye.

Micah: Bye, Dumby.