MuggleCast 98 Transcript
Deathly Hallows Talk at Enlightening
Keith Hawk: Ladies and gentlemen, MuggleCast!
[Cheering and applause]
Ben: Now that we have… Whoa! It’s kind of loud over there, huh? Now that we have the all sorted out..
Ben: I think it’s time to introduce ourselves. Of course, I’m Ben. I’m from MuggleNet. We started the website a long time ago. It’s been a great journey. This summer has truly been the best summer of my life. I’ve been on the road with these four people here for a long time. We’ve been to England, Southern California, Northern California, Ohio… Everywhere. And…
Jamie: And we still aren’t sick of it, which is pretty impressive after all that now.
Ben: So, who here has seen the movie?
[Some cheers from audience]
Andrew: Some people still haven’t.
Audience: We’re all waiting. Yeah.
Andrew: Oh, you’re waiting.
Ben: Waiting for the IMAX screening?
Audience: There is a screening.
Andrew: Oh, okay. Oh.
Ben: What did you think? What did you think?
Jamie: It is a good idea to wait, but are you waiting to see it in IMAX especially?
Audience: Yeah! On campus.
Jamie: Wait, wait, wait. There’s an IMAX on campus?
Andrew: They’re busing.
Jamie: I was going to move there if there was.
Ben: He’s going to transfer to Penn.
Jamie: I was going to transfer. That’s pretty cool.
Ben: So, there’s only a week left, folks. Basically a week until Deathly Hallows.
Andrew: A week and two days.
Ben: Can you believe it? I mean this is the moment we’ve all been waiting for. It’s almost like..
Jamie: Since 1999.
Ben: It’s almost like it snuck up on us. I mean, it came out of no where, and next thing you know, it’s only a week left until Harry Potter is over.
Emerson: That was a long couple of years for me, Ben. Especially the whole sneaking up thing.
Ben: But I would rather have it be another two years before the nest book.
[Some audience members agreeing with a ‘Yeah!’]
Ben: I don’t want this to end!
[Some audience members agreeing with a ‘No!’]
Ben: Boo yourself, okay? Boo yourself.
Andrew: Are we happy now that it is going to be released this year?
[A few audience members shout ‘Yeah!’ and applaud]
Andrew: Are some people happy?
[A few audience members shout ‘Yeah!’ and applaud]
Andrew: I mean, we really can’t complain. We are getting the final book. Sol, it’s not like, “Ahhh, not the final book.” I don’t know. Looking back now, I don’t know if I’d be able to wait another year. Every thing would have been over by now. The movie would have been out, we would be sitting back at home. They would be nothing to do.
Jamie: But it’s weird, though, you know, that we can go into 12 years – 11 or 12 years, and it’s only a week to go before it’s all over.
Andrew: Most people can say that they grew up with Harry Potter?
Andrew: All of us can say that pretty much, right?
Emerson: So we know why you guys are here. You want to talk about what’s going to happen in the last book. So… How about…
Ben: They say we might know something about that. I don’t know.
Will Harry Live?
Emerson: We thought about it a lot. Now, true. We don’t have any inside information. THere’s nothing we know that you don’t know. We’ve just done a lot. We’ve spent a lot of time re-reading the books, and dissecting every word of every sentence and trying to figure out how it fits in JK Rowling’s BIG mystery novel. Which Harry Potter is part mystery. You guys could agree on that. She likes to let us know what is going to happen in future books. So, without further ado. Let’s get into it.
How about by a show of hands. Who thinks Harry Potter is going to die in the next book?
Andrew: Awww, man.
Emerson: Now, who thinks he is going to live?
[Some talk among audience]
Emerson: Who has no idea?
[Some talk among audience]
Ben: Who doesn’t care?
Emerson: At least we got some honest people around.
Ben: Now, who here has a copy of MuggleNet.com’s What will Happen in Harry Potter 7? [pause] That’s what I like to see.
Emerson: He’s so going to live!
Emerson: He’s so going to live!
Ben: There is definitely a reason why the first chapter in the first book is titled ‘The Boy Who Lived’, and not ‘The Boy Who Died.’
Girl: He has to die!
Girl: Okay, if you ever heard of the whole…
Ben: Wrong, sorry.
Ben: Go on, I’m just kidding. Go on. Go on.
Girl: The whole, like, hero’s journey. Like, in Greek mythology and stuff. There is certain things a hero has to go through. And Harry Potter has passed through every single one. And the end is that he falls in eyes of his own people.
Girl: It’s the tragic hero syndrome.
Jamie: It is, but it’s more than that. I mean, I take it from a, sort of – if you look at Jo, she’s spent however many years writing this book.
Ben: It’s been years in the making.
Jamie: Yeah, okay. Thank you.
Jamie: Yeah, it’s been years in the making. The entire Harry Potter series has taken up, you know, two decades of her life. If I had written a series that spanned that long, I couldn’t kill my favorite character. I couldn’t kill the person who everyone else loves, as well. You know, there are like billions of Harry Potter fans in the world.
Ben: Right. But the difference is, is it’s something that regardless of whether or not Jo likes to kill Harry. Of course she didn’t like kill Sirius and she didn’t like to kill Dumbledore, but it was something that had to happen.
Jamie: Yeah, but there’s no reason…
Ben: Now, could it be the case where she thought that Harry has to die? I mean, I’m not – I think he’s going to live. I’m just kind of playing devil’s advocate here. See what Jamie thinks.
Emerson: Do you really think that J.K. Rowling – we know she’s had these books planned out from the beginning. So, just imagine that you’re J.K. Rowling. Some of you may have done this before.
Emerson: Imagine – go back in time ten years. Now you’re sitting on this train to Manchester. This is where you had the idea for the books. And you, in a flash of inspiration, you know now how you are going to write the bestselling book in the next decade. It’s going to be about a boy…
Jamie: Who dies – who doesn’t die.
Emerson: And then you make his life completely miserable and then you kill him! Yeah! Yeah!
Ben: Sounds cool to me.
Emerson: Well, I’m glad you’re not writing the book then, Ben.
Andrew: I like to look at it from a marketing standpoint. Okay, because there has been a lot of speculation over this. You’re a big fan of MSNBC, aren’t you?
Andrew: Keith Olbermann did an excellent piece on why Harry should live. And he took it from a marketing standpoint. He said, can you imagine a Harry Potter theme park where the main character is going to be dead?
Andrew: Now granted, I’m sure J.K. Rowling – hold on, wait. Let me finish.
Emerson: She’d do it in a way, as such that it wouldn’t be – I don’t think it’s going to be a negative thing. I think it going – If she did decide to kill him, I think it would be in a sense that, like a sacrificial form. Where we all felt good about what he did. We’re still…
Andrew: I guess.
Jamie: No, no. He’d still be dead.
Emerson: Wouldn’t it be kind of depressing? Wouldn’t it be kind of depressing to go walking around the theme park? It would be walking around someone’s grave.
Emerson: Like, what are we doing here guys? This is creepy.
Jamie: It would be like a library. There’d be a “no talking” policy.
Andrew: I could imagine if Harry did die, there would be like a tribute to him somewhere. Like a…
Andrew: Little tombstone. I’m just saying, it’d be nice. I’d pay tribute.
Ben: I just want to get a little scope on something here. Raise your hand if you cried when Sirius died?
Jamie: Thank you, yep.
Ben: Raise your hand if you cried when Dumbledore died? Raise your hand if you’d cry if Harry died?
Andrew: Of course.
Jamie: It’s too much. It’s too much.
Ben: Why is it too much?
Jamie: Because, I mean, although Sirius and Dumbledore were obviously very important characters. One was Harry’s godfather, one was his mentor. You know, the whole wizard, you know, old person who always helps the hero.
Jamie: It’s just like, they are important characters because they help him on his journey. But it’s his journey and his burden to bear. Alone. So like, I just could not see him die. Ever.
Jamie: Ever. He can’t die. He’s too cool.
Ben: Kind of like Jamie.
Emerson: That’s a good reason too. But also, I mean, when you think about what – J.K. Rowling, throughout these books, she’s always made it very, very clear in every interview and throughout the books that it’s the importance of the choices that you make is far more important than your abilities. So, what kind of moral message would J.K. Rowling be sending if she killed off Harry, after Harry has done nothing but be a good, true, loyal, and honest friend.
Jamie: Well, I have to say that she could do it in like a sacrificial thing, like you said. You know, where he dies to save someone else. So, her books do have intense moral messages in them. You know, the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. That kind of thing. So like, I can understand why she would do it from that point of view. But, he’s not going to die. So…
Ben: Well, you have to get…
Jamie: It’s pointless.
Ben: But also, yeah, also you have to take into account the Drew Spartz factor, is what I’ve named it. Emerson has a brother who is eight-years old, okay, and he likes Harry Potter quite a bit, and he’s read all of the books, and there’s some younger fans here in the crowd, and I just couldn’t imagine the look on his face if Harry died. I mean, the post-Potter depression…
Ben: …would be incredible. I mean, it’s all going to be pretty bad as is, but imagine if the main character died. And Emerson made a good point about how – take two characters like Harry and Draco or Harry and Voldemort and their choices – they grew up in similar situations, but the choices that they’ve made have been different, and for J.K. Rowling to punish Harry again, you know. His parents have died, his godfather has died, his grand – I mean, his Dumbledore died.
Jamie: His Dumbledore died.
Ben: I was going to say his grandpa, but he’s not his grandfather. So he’s lost everything, now why does he deserve to die? I don’t…
[Audience member says something too soft to hear]
Emerson: But why does Harry have to be the one who makes the sacrifice?
Jamie: No, that’s good, but…
Emerson: Characters will have to make sacrifices, but why does it have to be Harry? Hasn’t he sacrificed enough?
Jamie: And no, that…
Emerson: But why would you create a character where you do nothing but make his entire life miserable and then you kill him at the end of the series? That’s not – but why Harry? Why can’t somebody else? Why can’t Snape sacrifice himself? Why can’t other characters step up?
[Audience calls out responses]
Emerson: We’ll get into Snape in a minute.
Emerson: Simmer down now.
Jo’s Howling Reaction
Andrew: He could go peacefully, I think that’s a big point to bring up. Now hold on, I’m just on my Apple iPhone right here, and I just happen…
Ben: Which he just bought yesterday, by the way.
Andrew: I just bought yesterday.
Andrew: Hold on, wait, I just – I was just kidding. I didn’t – I wasn’t trying to sound arrogant. I just want to quote something J.K. Rowling said. I’m on MuggleNet. It looks great on that Apple iPhone. But anyway…
Ben: I think Apple’s paying him to say that.
Jamie: Yeah, they really are.
Andrew: She said, “When I finished one chapter near the end I absolutely howled, it had been planned for so long… [I felt] euphoria, devastated…”
Emerson: Yeah, well, but…
Andrew: She was completely destroyed when she finished this chapter she had been writing – she had planned for so long. This is, I think, the chapter she’s had planned since the beginning, because she’s said for so long that she’s had this one chapter for Book 7 finished before she even finished Sorcerer’s Stone.
Jamie: But that could just be because it’s the final chapter of Harry Potter. It’s going to be a…
Andrew: It’s not the final chapter. It’s not the final chapter.
Ben: She feels such a strong emotional attachment to this series…
Ben: …because it’s been her brain child for so long. That doesn’t necessarily mean that something bad happened in the final chapter. It could mean that she finally was like, “Wow, I’m actually done with this. I can’t believe it.”
Andrew: Yeah, I guess. But it’s something interesting to take into account when she’s had it planned for so long, and yet she’s devastated. She “absolutely howled.” It’s emotional. I don’t know if it could be Harry having a good ending.
Jamie: But the entire books are emotional, as well, you know. She’s going to “howl,” as you put it, because right at the end, she’s spent all these years writing these books. It’s going to be emotional whether she writes that Harry dies or lives, because she’s finished. She’s done with it. That’s the end of her job, you know?
Andrew: Wouldn’t that be funny? Seeing her howl?
Jamie: I’d love to see her howl, yeah.
Ben: Has anyone else considered perhaps Harry doesn’t have to die, but maybe he’ll have to make some type of sacrifice in another form? Like giving up his magic? I’ve heard that a lot.
Emerson: No, no, no.
Andrew: That’s what older Ben was saying.
Emerson: No, no, no, no, no, no.
Jamie: Actually, that reminds me of…
Emerson: No, no, no, no.
Ben: Emerson, might have already read the book or something, because he seems to have it all figured out.
Emerson: No, no, no, no. He’s not going to give up his magic. That would be like the most depressing end to the books I could ever see.
[Everyone shouts over each other]
Ben: So much for your happy ending, I mean.
Ben: I mean, who says that the books have to end happily?
Emerson: I do.
Andrew: I think they’ll…
Emerson: Jo and I are best friends, and you guys know.
Jamie: That would be a fate worse than death, though. Going from having magical powers to none. I’d rather…
Jamie: Imagine knowing that that world’s out there and knowing everything that you can do and not being able to do anything. Kind of like Filch really.
Ben: Yeah, and also what about Voldemort? I think – who here… I think perhaps that Voldemort won’t die but Dumbledore continually reminds Voldemort that there is a fate worse than death. So perhaps Voldemort…
Jamie: Will lose his power, yeah.
Ben: …lose his powers or maybe be kissed by the dementor or something or other.
Emerson: Or be forced to work as a…
Jamie: If he…
Emerson: …Muggle janitor or something.
Jamie: You just bring up a very interesting point. If he was kissed by a dementor, because obviously he only has a maimed soul in his body, what would happen to him?
Ben: I don’t know.
Jamie: I don’t know either.
Andrew: We do see Harry and Voldemort on the cover, the US cover dueling without wands. So maybe they don’t have to use their magic necessarily…
Jamie: They fight.
Ben: Well of course, of course…
Andrew: It’s definitely not a fist fight. They’re not having a fist fight.
Ben: Right because they can’t duel because of Priori Incantatem and for those of you who’ve seen the movie you know how when Dumbledore and Voldemort were dueling, how it wasn’t like it was just normal magic. It became this upper advanced magic where it was almost like they were battling with elements of the earth. And it was so much like they were beyond spells, spells were just so trivial.
Jamie: I just have to say this because I keep making this point but did anyone see Pokemon the first movie?
Jamie: Okay, do you know when Mew and MewTwo were battling right over the edge and they’re throwing like these balls of elements and fire, at each other. It was just like that in the film, I thought, anyway.
Andrew: I need to watch that.
Ben: But as I was saying, perhaps Harry, in this last book, takes his magical ability to the next level where he can actually survive a duel with Voldemort, where it’s no longer the case where he’s the little kid who lucks out. I think we’re finally going to see that. And Book 7 will be the book where finally Harry grows up and becomes a mature wizard because with Dumbledore gone, it’s time for him to step up and take the reigns.
Harry The Horcrux
Emerson: So in our book we put forth a theory that is – that was at first extremely controversial and it’s still very controversial, but it doesn’t seem as quite the crackpot theory that it used to. Now, we think that on the night that Voldemort showed up at Godric’s Hollow to kill Harry, we know that he planned to make a Horcrux out of Harry’s death. Now, when the Avada Kedvara spell backfired, what we think happened was the Horcrux spell that Voldemort prepared, or would have had prepared was released and Harry was turned into an accidental Horcrux. Now this is the part where a lot of you guys start going [in a silly voice] “Those Muggle boys and their theories.”
Ben: Yeah. Last week in – it was only a few days ago we were in Los Angeles and we brought up this theory, we heard, “NOOOOOOOOO!”
Emerson: So, the reason why we think this happened, the “crux” of the theory…
[Audience laughs and moans]
Emerson: He’s so punny, ha ha ha.
Andrew: So funny.
Emerson: Is that Harry and Voldemort share this mind connection that can’t be explained by anything else that we’ve read in the books so far. There’s no other theory to explain it. Now this connection that they share is the same connection that Voldemort and Nagini share. Nagini is Voldemort’s snake and a known…
Emerson: Now when Dumbledore…
Audience Member: A suspected Horcrux.
Emerson: A suspected Horcrux, right.
Ben: We think Dumbledore’s right about this one because we need to trust Dumbledore.
Andrew: Yeah, we do.
Emerson: Now when Harry is in the department of mysteries he takes on the perspective – when he started – he started having these visions, and he imagined he’s the snake biting Arthur Weasley. Wouldn’t it make sense then that the reason why Harry could see into the mind of Voldemort’s snake is because all three of them share a piece of the same soul.
Ben: [in a deep voice] “They got soul.”
Jamie: And also I can tell you that when Dumbledore said that Voldemort put a piece of himself inside Harry, it’s – we’ve never seen magical powers, an actual part of the magical power be transfered. So we think that he must be referring to the…
Emerson: A piece of soul.
Jamie: …a piece of soul.
Emerson: Literally a piece of soul. Now Voldemort and Harry share all these connections, all these similarities that again can’t be explained by anything that we’ve read in the books so far. They were both selected by brother wands, Harry can open up the Chamber of Secrets even though he’s not the heir of Slytherin.
Emerson: When was the last time in the books somebody who wasn’t the heir of Slytherin opened up the Chamber of Secrets?
Jamie: And also, and everyone says it’s because he can speak Parseltounge, but it was specifically said that you have to be the heir of Slytherin.
Ben: You have to be the heir of Slytherin.
Emerson: It was Ginny Weasley who opened it up, and she used the diary which was a known…
Emerson: Why would the Sorting Hat even consider putting Harry in Slytherin? Harry is the Gryffindor-iest Gryffindor who was ever Gryffindored a Gryffindor.
What was the Sorting Hat thinking? It must have seen something else inside him.
Ben: Yeah Keith, what were you thinking? Come on Keith. [laughs] Sorry! Keith does the Sorting Hat by the way. Something else that’s interesting is, this isn’t major evidence or anything but in the Divinations class in Prisoner of Azkaban, Trelawney is known of course for making crackpot predictions and often times she’s really off her rocker, but she is a true Seer. We she that she’s made two real prophecies, and her grandmother was really famous or whatever, so we know that she is a true Seer and something at all Seers can be able to do, at least I think makes sense, is to be able to, you know, tell simple things like birth date based off your astrological sign and all that, and when she looks at Harry in Book 3 she says “You were born during the winter months, blah blah blah” and he was like “actually I was born in July.” And recently we learned on J.K. Rowling’s website that Voldemort’s birthday is New Year’s Eve, which is obviously a winter month. So perhaps Trelawney was getting mixed signals because of this peice of soul inside of Harry.
Emerson: Now throughout the books, Voldemort has been driven by the single minded desire to kill Harry. That’s all he’s concerned about is just killing Harry. But then after the scene in the fifth book where he possesses Harry in the Department of Mysteries, after that moment in the books he stops trying to kill him. He specifically instructs the Death Eaters not to harm Harry. Now why would he do that unless he realized that there were pieces of his soul inside Harry which he needs to remove first before killing him.
Ben: Now, many of you – I have the feeling the question is going to come up, “Well, Emerson you seem so confidant that Harry is going to live, now how would it be possible for Harry to live if he’s a Horcrux? He’s a Horcrux, he’s got to destroy himself, I got you Emerson I got you right there!”
Ben: Well, sorry. You don’t have Emerson. I have Emerson.
Emerson: Maybe it’s not just coincidence that J.K. Rowling happned to introduce creatures that are capable of sucking out a wizard’s soul.
Jamie: Yeah, but you can’t sort of go up to them and request q soul-sucking session.
Emerson: No wait, those dementors are pretty horny for some soul, maybe they would, you know?
Ben: Okay, for example I mean, if we know that Dementors usually suck the soul out of the mouth, perhaps if Harry’s scar is what denotes that he’s a Horcrux, perhaps you know, just give him a little [makes kissing noise] on the forehead. That’s all I’m saying.
Emerson: Now Dumbledore says something really strange to Harry after Harry is mourning the death of Sirius.
Ben: “Suffering like this Harry proves you’re still a man.”
Emerson: That’s weird.
Who says things like that?
Emerson: Proves your still a man? Dumbledore could see that there was something less than human inside of Harry, so that’s why he was congratulating Harry for still being able to feel empathy. Now the crack on the ring, after Dumbledore removes the Horcrux, is the same shape as Harry’s scar. The ring being also, a known Horcrux.
Emerson: It just keeps piling up, doesn’t it guys?
MuggleCast 98 Transcript (continued)
Ben: Now there are a few grey areas in the theory. For example, since we don’t know exactly how a Horcrux is created, you can’t exactly tell – because that night in Godric’s Hollow some people say well, how could he go there intending to kill Harry, make a Horcrux out of Harry’s death, and Harry accidentally becomes a Horcrux. We don’t know how it happened; we’re just saying that it did, because Slughorn’s very vague about the process that you have to go through to make a Horcrux. So we don’t know, do you mark the object beforehand? If I want to make this water bottle into a Horcrux, do I kill Emerson first…
Ben: … or do I kill him after? I mean, it’s just – we just don’t know what, exactly, it takes. And at one of the events – there’s this website, like, Red Robin Publications, or Red Bird, Red Hen Publications or something – and they discussed about the Horcrux theory, about Harry being a Horcrux, and they’re thinking that when you kill somebody…
Andrew: I’m sorry, it’s my Apple iPhone.
Ben: Sorry, his brand-new Apple iPhone is ringing.
Andrew: Let me just silence it.
Jamie: Answer it. Answer it on-air.
Ben: So, where was I? I was about to make a very good point. Oh, yeah, yeah. And they’re saying that – so, Dumbledore says that when you kill somebody, your soul is split. Now, we think that you’d have to guide that piece of soul into something or other – I don’t know how the Horcrux works, but he’s a Horcrux.
Jamie: And also…
Jamie: He is, but…
Audience Member: If part of Voldemort is in Harry, how come he can’t control the Basilisk in Chamber of Secrets?
Emerson: Now, Arthur Levine, who’s actually had a chance to read the seventh book, he mentions that in the book, Harry is in a, quote, “interesting position.”
Emerson: Now, that can be interpreted in a lot of different ways, but wouldn’t you consider having a piece of your arch-enemy’s soul inside you to be an interesting position?
Jamie: Em, that could be anything. An interesting position could mean anything.
Ben: Well, we’re just saying that that could fit.
Jamie: That would be interesting, definitely, but…
Ben: Well, Andrew, Andrew, Andrew, I haven’t heard your thoughts on the Horcrux theory; I’ve been dying to hear them. What do you think?
Andrew: Well, listen. This is the first time I’m involved in one of these MuggleNet book talks, and I’m pretty interested. But, okay…
Emerson: Seriously, how right are we?
Andrew: What? I don’t know, Emerson, because I’m just thinking now, that, if Harry was a Horcrux, have you guys really explained yet how this is going to be taken out of him?
Jamie: Well, yeah. We talked about the dementor thing with the soul-sucking, but…
Andrew: But, I don’t…
Emerson: We don’t know specifically how the soul-sucking works…
Andrew: How are you going to get a Dementor to take it out of Harry? That seems, like – what are you going to do?
Jamie: You’d have to tell him – you’d have to tell him…
Ben: You put them under the Imperius Curse.
Emerson: Dementors love soul, they wouldn’t need that much convincing.
Ben: Just put the Dementor under the Imperius Curse, and say, “suck soul.” And they do it.
Jamie: But, you’d have to tell them to get Voldemort’s soul and not Harry’s own soul as well.
Jamie: And I don’t think they’re that sort of complicated creatures, they just do it.
Emerson: But you’re not seeing the forest from the trees here. I mean, the fact that these creatures exist offers a lot of evidence that the reason that – they specialize in exactly what Harry needs, so the specifics of how the soul would come out, we don’t know, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility, they could find some way to get a dementor to do what they do best and suck out a soul.
Audience Member: There’s actually an excellent piece of fanfiction on the web right now that details that very scenario, and the…
Ben: Do you happen to be the author?
Audience Member: No, I actually just started reading fanfic, like, a couple weeks ago, and I’ve actually gotten into a lot of it because a lot of it varies and makes sense to read in that forum. But the author – she told it as, with the two souls residing in Harry – of course, one is Harry’s soul, it’s complete, it’s full, the other is a fragment of Voldemort’s soul that needs to come out.
Ben: Yeah, yeah, and also, Harry has smart friends like Hermione. I think Hermione – you know, because perhaps Dumbledore was a Horcrux, and knew, and that’s why his hand turned all black, and perhaps he didn’t know what he was doing. And also, if you’re into fanfiction, read the Psychic Serpent Trilogy by Barb on FictionAlley.net.
Jamie: That is good.
Emerson: Well, think about it. Wormtail still owes Harry a life debt. And Wormtail’s always creeping around, looking for information he can use for his own benefit. Maybe Wormtail will pay off his life debt by telling how he can remove the Horcrux from inside him. It’s just a thought.
Jamie: I’d say one final point, though.
[Audience member replies]
Emerson: Why wouldn’t he? He’d save Harry’s life by doing that.
Jamie: One final point where it falls down slightly but – I don’t know if it does because the same rules don’t apply. But when he goes to Godric’s Hollow, he knows that the person who has the power to vanquish him is going to be there , so – and when he’s talking to Slughorn, he says, “that seven is the most powerful magical number.” So, I would have thought when you go to face the person the only person who can possibly kill you and vanquish you, you would go there already with seven Horcruxes, but obviously the scenario that happened there had never ever been prescribed in history books. So, it could have been that the Horcruxes were made because of…
Ben: Right. Dumbledore said that the night Voldemort went to Godric’s Hollow, he was intending to make a Horcrux out of Harry’s death because what more of a significant death could it be than the person who was going to vanquish him?
Jamie: Oh, I agree.
Ben: With the power.
Jamie: But if someone has the power to vanquish you, you would assume that they have intensive power of magic to kill you and his defense against magical power is his seven Horcruxes because you know he can’t be killed with that, so it’s just a case of wearing down his opponent until he can, because if he can’t be killed, then the other person can’t kill him. So, I’d have thought he’d go to Godric’s Hollow already with the most amount of Horcruxes there to face his arch-enemy. But saying that, I’m not sure, because it is an important death, obviously.
Emerson: Some people say this theory – I mean, how can Voldemort just accidentally make a Horcrux. I mean, we know through the books that you have to mean your spell, but maybe – first of all, maybe it was a nonverbal spell and also, Voldemort’s soul just killed James and Lily so his soul would have already been split and ready to be directed into whatever object he chose and at that point, he was casting Avada Kedavra, and Harry is “The Chosen One.” So. it’s not outside the realm of possibility that that’s how that Horcrux was released in Harry; it was made into one.
What if Harry Knew He Was a Horcrux?
Andrew: The reason why I think this stands is because he does have a scar on his forehead.
Jamie: Which is the same as the one in the ring.
Andrew: It’s never been explained. It’s the same one on the ring. So, and what was it Hagrid told Harry back in Sorcerer’s Stone he said to him? “Voldemort left a mark on your forehead that…” but it was never really explained. Does Voldemort know – Dumbledore?
Ben: We think that Dumbledore may have had an idea that Harry was a Horcrux because we think – some people say, “Well, why wouldn’t Dumbledore reveal that information to Harry. Isn’t it obvious that it’s something that would be useful to him?”
Jamie: It wouldn’t though.
Ben: But, see, the problem is we think that Harry doesn’t react very rationally, so…
Andrew: Do you think he would kill himself?
Ben: Yeah, we think that Harry wouldn’t think it through, would isolate himself from everybody and decide that, “Well, I have to go,” you know?
Ben: He would decide that…
Jamie: But it isn’t that he doesn’t react rationally. It’s just that he puts other people before himself so he could get rid of himself.
Emerson: But he also really doesn’t act rationally; he kind of just charges head first into danger the way any Gryffindor would. But frankly, I mean, I’m not hating on Harry here. I mean, we run a Harry Potter website, but if I was alive in the Wizarding World right now and I knew that the future of our species depended on Harry Potter defeating the Dark Lord, I wouldn’t sleep soundly at night.
Andrew: And also, look at Book 5, where Dumbledore didn’t want to talk to Harry about all this because he didn’t want to scare Harry. He didn’t want to make Harry feel any worse that he already did. So imagine Dumbledore then telling him…
Ben: It wasn’t only that, though. It was that he had to isolate himself from Harry because Voldemort – he thought that if he isolated himself from Harry, that Voldemort would be less interested in trying to control Harry’s mind. That was part of it, too.
Emerson: But Dumbledore does only tell Harry on a need-to-know basis. Every book, he sits him down and says, “I’m going to tell you everything,” and then he doesn’t.
Emerson: So – but I think Dumbledore knew what he was doing by not telling Harry that he was a Horcrux. Harry could do something very rash if he knew that there was a piece of his arch-enemy’s soul inside of him.
Andrew: He definitely would do it. You think he would do it, right? He’s the hero. He wants to save the day.
Ben: Yeah. Of course.
Andrew: “I’ll sacrifice myself. I’ll apologize to Ron and Hermione in my suicide note…”
Jamie: But if you take the prophecy to be worded as it talks about Harry, then if he kills himself, then he couldn’t then go on to defeat Voldemort.
[Audience Member speaks]
Andrew: Well, that…
[Audience Member speaks]
Jamie: Well, I don’t know, because wouldn’t the sword just goes straight through his neck?
Andrew: But if all the Horcruxes are destroyed except for Harry’s, and then he has to kill himself, isn’t he still defeating…
Jamie: He would have to take Voldemort down with him, yes.
Andrew: Down first – oh.
Ben: Nowhere in the prophecy does it say that one must live if the other survives. I mean, one must live if the other dies. Do you understand?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Ben: So both could die, and that’s not – it isn’t like one has to live and the other has to die. Enough Horcruxiness.
Andrew: We’ll know in nine days. Isn’t that weird?
Andrew: We will know in nine days. Isn’t that weird?
Jamie: Can I just…
Andrew: Now, if you guys are wrong…
Ben: Yeah! If we’re wrong, if we’re wrong…
Andrew: What’s going to happen?
Emerson: You can blame us for making predictions, just like every other Harry Potter fan does! Seriously.
Ben: Blame us for having this…
Andrew: They’re standing behind this so strongly!
Ben: We have good evidence, though. I mean, you can’t deny the evidence is there. There are a few areas – I can see that. The more and more we ‘ve done these book tours, it’s almost like I’ve convinced myself more and more.
Ben: Because at first it was like – we were both kind of, like, “You know, we don’t particularly subscribe to this theory, but Harry might be a Horcrux for these reasons.” Then by the end of our book tour, we were saying, ” Yeah! He’s definitely a Horcrux!”
Ben: You know, “Don’t you question me!”
Ben: So our attitudes quickly evolved about Harry being a Horcrux.
Emerson: It’s because we’ve now put this theory out in front of thousands of fans in cities all around the country, and we’ve never heard – every time we do it, we usually get just one more piece of evidence that supports the theory, and we’ve never heard anything that can actually…
Ben: Disprove it.
Emerson: …disprove the theory, so we’ve just added more and more evidence.
Ben: We had a few scares, though. We had an event in Paramus, New Jersey, back in March, and this lady in the second row says that, “Yeah! In Half-Blood Prince, Slughorn says that you have to mark – the Horcrux is made after the death!” And we are like, “[gasps] Oh my gosh! We just published a book about this.”
Ben: “Whoops!” And then we whipped out the book, and we actually told her, “You show us right now!” You know, because she made an outrageous claim, and then she couldn’t find it, so that was a scare.
Emerson: Enough Horcruxes for right now!
Theory on the Prophecy
Jamie: I want to bring out a point, which I think is the best theory I have ever heard in my life, and I’ve been asking everyone about it just because it’s so good. In the prophecy, it says that “the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches,” yeah? As in he approaches because he is being born soon. But right at that moment, Snape is walking towards the room, because obviously, he overhears the prophecy. So, I want to hear what people think about it being Snape that has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord.
[Audience all talks at once]
Ben: Okay, no, Jamie. Here’s how I think about it. I think about it in the sense that Harry is the one who is going to be the one who is actually going to kill Voldemort…
[Audience continues to murmur their thoughts in the background]
Ben: …I think that Snape is going to assist in that, and in hindsight, once we look at the prophecy, we’re going to think, “Oh, Jo was hinting at this there.” I don’t actually think that Snape is the one who is born as the seventh month dies.
Audience Member: Because he’s born in January.
Ben: Yeah, that’s right.
Jamie: So wait, by the end of the – just to show my complete lack of knowledge here…
Jamie: … right at the end of the prophecy, it says, “The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is born as the seventh month dies?”
Ben: Well, it “approaches” also.
Jamie: Sorry, “as the seventh month approaches?”
Ben: It says, “The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches, will be born as the seventh month dies?” I don’t know! I call myself a fan!
Andrew: Wasn’t there a theory that said “approaches” means someone who is actually walking.
Ben: Yeah! But that’s what we were just saying! [laughs]
Andrew: Oh. Sorry. My bad.
Ben: Someone’s out to lunch!
[Andrew and audience laugh]
Jamie: No, yeah. Well, okay, but that’s just completely shot down, but I still think it’s so awesome.
Emerson: What do you guys think about Snape?
[Audience yells various answers]
Emerson: How about this? How about show of hands, show of hands. Raise your hand if you think Snape is working for Voldemort?
Emerson: Raise your hand if you think that Snape is working for the Order of the Phoenix?
Audience Member: But he’s a jerk.
Emerson: Raise your hand if you think Snape is working for himself?
Jamie: I’d vote for…
Ben: Raise your hand – raise your hand if you think Snape is working for the Giants?
Emerson: Raise your hand if you think Snape is a huge, slimy git no matter who he’s working for?
Emerson: Raise your hand if you’re tired of raising your hand?
Jamie: I’ve always thought with Snape, he’s like – you’ve had two classes of people. You’ve had the amazing wizards and witches who like you know, are above everyone, so you have Voldemort and Dumbledore who you know – they can only face up against themselves because they are more powerful than any one else. And then you have sort of like one class down and in that class is Snape.
Jamie: Yeah is Snape.
Ben: I think Snape is the third most powerful.
Jamie: He’s the third most powerful. All of the other teachers are – they are powerful as well but Snape is – sorry?
Audience Member: I said that’s a scary thought.
Jamie: It is a scary thought but he… I mean he’s working for himself but if, I assume everyone here thinks Harry’s going to win. Good is going to triumph over evil. Well, I hope you all think that.
Ben: I think Snape is perhaps one of the most clever characters…
Jamie: He is and powerful, very, very powerful.
Ben: Because if you think about it, I mean if – regardless of who he’s been hoodwinking whether it’s the good side or the bad side, or if he’s hoodwinking both of them at the same time, that’s absolutely incredible because he’s fooling two of the greatest wizards of all time and if he managed to do that somehow that’s pretty amazing. But we think that – in our book we reached the conclusion that Snape is working for the Order of the Phoenix. Now, there’s a scene when Dumbledore dies – and by the way he is dead okay?
Ben: Just so you know. I don’t want to hear anything about Dumbledore making Horcruxes. I don’t want to – we’ve heard it all folks.
Emerson: And I quote J.K. Rowling, “Dumbledore is definitely dead.” You cannot wriggle around that, that is pretty explicit. Okay, go ahead.
Ben: So, here’s the scene, Dumbledore, he’s laying there incapacitated. He basically – he’s helpless. There’s Draco – and Draco’s has to kill him because early on in Half-Blood Prince we hear Narcissa Malfoy and Snape talking about his son’s task and that Snape will have to carry it out and ofcourse they make the Unbreakable Vow. So, at that one crucial moment when Draco proves that he is not a killer, sort of – he can’t kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore doesn’t even have a wand, he just can’t do it and he pansies out. And finally, Snape steps in and Dumbledore turns to Snape and says, [impersonating Dumbledore] “Severus, please.”
Ben: Now the first question we have to ask ourselves is “Why would Dumbledore, a man who thinks death is nothing but the next great adventure, be begging his trusted friend for his life?” He really wouldn’t be doing that. Jamie take over.
Jamie: He’s too powerful to beg…
Ben: I just know.
Jamie: …no I’m just saying he’s too powerful to beg, Dumbledore. And as you said you know, death is just the next great adventure so I could never see him doing that, but you know what we think is that he’s saying you know, “Please Severus, please do the task that you were appointed to do.” And also, if you remember earlier in the book, Hagrid hears Snape and Dumbledore arguing and they’re like – and he’s like, he said Snape was saying to Dumbledore that he didn’t want him to keep taking him for granted and that the task was bigger than him.
Ben: But you’re saying that he didn’t want to do it.
Jamie: …yeah, yeah so then in the scene when he’s killed he’s – Dumbledore’s saying, “Please, please, please do it. Do the task that you were supposed to do” and then the look of utmost revulsion on Snape’s face wasn’t for Dumbledore, but was for the task he was just about to perform.
Emerson: Dumbledore definately knew that he was about to die.
Jamie: Yeah, he did.
Emerson: He had to have had that plan. There’s no way a sixth-year wizard is going to keep Dumbledore from doing what he wants to do, when he wants to do it.
Jamie: How he wants to do it?
Emerson: How he wants to do it. I mean at any moment Dumbledore could have just laid the smack down and said, “Draco, I’m Dumbledore! You’re not!” And at the very least Fawkes could have come to save his life. There’s no way Dumbledore didn’t know he was about to die. Dumbledore’s death served a purpose. This is…
Ben: It was inevitable.
Emerson: J.K. Rowling killing Harry and killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore’s death was crucial for Harry’s development.
Jamie: And also, it was. And also if you look to the scene in Order of the Phoenix when Dumbledore and the Ministry witches and wizards are in his office, he can take down two outstanding aurors, he can take down…
Ben: The Minister for Magic.
Jamie: …Fudge. He can take down any one he wants basically. He’s that cool.
Ben: Right. And something else that’s interesting to point out is that in Half-Blood Prince we learn that when Voldemort – Voldemort tried to apply to the school to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts and he put a curse on the position. Now, why would Dumbledore assign Snape – finally let him have the position of the Defence against the Dark Arts teacher unless he knew that Snape was going to be leaving at the end of the year and perhaps that Dumbledore was going to be – that he was going to be checking out himself.
Jamie: That’s true and you have to see Dumbledore’s plan as a grand master plan. He thinks of everything. You know? I just think that everything he does, and everything that happens, he knows about. Do you know what I mean? Like, if he wanted to he could have stopped Draco and a few Death Eaters. You know? like, Fenrir Greyback is scary to most people, but to Dumbledore he’s just a person that fears death, you know? Dumbledore sees the big picture.
Ben: We hear in Sorcerer’s Stone where, you know, he doesn’t need a cloak to become invisible. Now, why couldn’t he just become invisible right then and do a barrel roll and just roll right out of the way?
Emerson: Do a barrel roll!
Ben: You know what I mean? He wouldn’t even need an invisibility cloak. So, he obviously could have gotten out of there if he wanted to.
Andrew: I think something is going to have to be explained very early on in the book about Snape, because this whole time Harry is going to want to be after Snape. Or somebody in the Order is going to have to explain to him, “Look, Snape is good for this specific reason.”
Ben: Yeah. I could see Lupin – I could see Lupin doing that.
Jamie: Well, also, forgetting, the sixth book is Snape’s book, you know?
Jamie: It was named after Snape, so he’s ridiculously important.
Jamie: And that has to follow on. Sorry?
Audience Member: I kind of disagree with what you just said though, because Snape and not knowing is- creates such great tension of the book that it won’t have to be in…
Andrew: Well, that’s true, there will be a lot of tension, but you also have to think that if Harry – Harry is going to want to be after Snape the whole time, especially if he makes himself known.
Audience Member: No, he knows that he has to go after Voldemort.
Andrew: He does know that, but at the same time, he’s the guy that just killed Dumbledore.
Jamie: He’s definitely going to go try to kill him.
Ben: He’s going to be seeking vengeance, but I don’t think that’s going to be, like – yeah. He’s not going to be driven by that.
Andrew: All right.
Ben: He’s going to be driven by the fact that this is it. You know, he has no one to lean on and it’s finally the time for him to step up…
Ben: …and be a man.
Andrew: I still think someone’s going to have to explain that Snape – something has to be explained about Snape to comfort Harry that Dumbledore asked him to do it.
Ben: But does it, though? I mean, I don’t think – I think that it’s going to be that one shocking moment when we finally find out Snape’s true loyalty. I think it’s going to come, perhaps near the end of the story, you know, in some sort of battle where Snape steps in the way, or finally stands up to Voldemort and says, “No, this isn’t how it’s going to be.”
Jamie: No, because, Ben, Harry thinks he stands on Voldemort’s side now. He doesn’t know that it was part of Dumbledore’s grand plan. So…
Ben: Right. So, that’s why Snape would step in at the end and reveal his true loyalty.
Jamie: But if their paths cross – if Snape’s and Harry’s paths cross Harry is going to try and kill him.
Ben: Right, of course, I think Snape is going to win, because, you know, he’s – for example, if you look him in the Occlumency scenes in Order of the Phoenix, it is so obvious that, like, the master and the student, the teacher and the student. It’s so obvious and I don’t think that, unless there was some odd – Harry lucks out again, does some super back flip over the top Snape…
Ben: …kicks him in the back of the head, and then AKs him, I don’t think it’s going to happen. Maybe – I say, that Snape would obviously be the more experienced wizard in that case. He would get his way out of it and, like I said, I think it’s going to be one moment in the book where Snape finally shows his true loyalty, by either standing up to Voldemort and trying to do something, but I really think that it’s going to be him either way.
Jamie: And also, getting back to the Occlumency scenes, you know, when you first read it, you think, “Oh, Snape’s just shouting at Harry. He doesn’t really care he just wants to get out of there,” but if you read it more closely, he’s teaching him. He’s really, really – he wants him to do well. He shouts at him because he can’t get it, because he realizes how important it is that Harry learns Occlumency, and it really is. If you look at the development in the next book, the whole Voldemort possessing Harry thing, it’s so important that he learns these things, and Snape is actually worried.
Ben: And Snape had so many chances to – to just not have done anything. For example, we see in Order of the Phoenix when – the movie also – when Snape is – excuse me – when Harry is in Umbridge’s office, and Umbridge says, “Snape get me your Veritaserum.” “I have used my last stores on so and so.” And then he’s getting ready to walk away and then Harry says, “They have Padfoot in the place where it’s hidden,” I don’t know the line from the book; that’s the line from the movie, and at that one moment, Snape could just say, you know, he could actually mean he has no idea what Harry’s talking about, and choose not to act on that, because that’s such a vague thing to say to someone. He knows exactly what he’s talking about, and the fact that Snape acted upon that, when he could have just done nothing, I mean, and there would be no question about it, to me, proves his loyalty to Dumbledore and the Order.
Emerson: And Dumbledore as he – after he removes the Horcrux from the ring, and he’s near death, and Snape saves his life. Snape is, obviously the best Potions master at Hogwarts, so he could have just pretended to do his best effort, and let him die anyway, and nobody would have been the wiser, because nobody knows their potions like Snape does.
Emerson: Snape’s had so many opportunities to kill Harry, bring him to Voldemort, to do whatever, and he never has. He saves Harry’s life, or he might abuse him, you know, mentally and verbally, but he doesn’t – he’s definitely not. He can’t be working for Voldemort. He’s had way too many opportunities.
Jamie: Yeah, and also, you have to, you know – his life hasn’t been perfect and people haven’t trusted him after the whole, you know, Voldemort/Prophecy thing and him being a Death Eater. So, Dumbledore is the only person who’s trusted him. And his life hasn’t been perfect so having that person in your life who is the only one who trusts you, unconditionally trusts you, about
everything, you know, it would be – it would take a tough man and an evil man to not, you know…
Ben: To betray that trust.
Ben: Yeah, yeah. And for example, I think there’s – we never really find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape and I think that’s something that’s going to be revealed to us in this final book is we’re going to find out the real reason why. Perhaps it has something to do with what happened in Godric’s Hollow, something or another, and I just think that we will finally find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much.
Ben: Then we will all trust Snape.
Jamie: And also, he’s trusting, Dumbledore, but he isn’t stupid, so like, on an issue like Snape, who could potentially swing the entire battle to Voldemort’s side or to the good side, I don’t think he’s going to take any chance at all. So, he’s sure of Snape’s loyalty. As you said, you know, there’s going to be one thing, which convinces us as well, there’ll be one thing
that Snape did that – because I don’t think, you know, Snape obviously, should be extremely loyal to Dumbledore and I don’t think Dumbledore could ever take the risk of not really trusting him 100% at all.
Andrew: Couldn’t that exactly be the cause of, okay, sure, there’s a definite sure-fire reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape, but the reason – it could be the reason why Snape – Dumbledore and Harry – well no, Dumbledore trusts Snape a lot, right? So say – now I’m losing my train of thought.
Andrew: Get back to me in a minute.
MuggleCast 98 Transcript (continued)
Question: Will Arthur and Molly Survive?
Ben: So, I think we’ve harped on Snape a little bit here. I think now we’d like to open up the floor for questions. We want to hear what your thoughts are on the book – on Book 7 and what, if any, questions about what we think, also.
Jamie: Back there.
Woman: Okay, I represent a small, but growing number of mothers, who call ourselves “Mothers Against Murdering Molly.”
[Applause and screaming]
Ben: Can I join?
Woman: We disagree with the book’s – your book’s premise that Arthur and Molly are high on the list marked for death or have high odds of being, maybe, killed.
Ben: Yeah, I have just one question for you before you state your thing. Now, is this “Mothers Against Murdering Molly” – is this actually, I mean – are you just upset that she might die or do you honestly think that she’s not going to?
Woman: No, we honestly think she’s not going to.
Ben: Okay. I was just saying if it’s…
Woman: We don’t know, what do you we think?
Andrew: You haven’t had a meeting yet?
Woman: We’re a recently formed group.
Ben: So, do you have a question?
Woman: Yeah, I’d like you to talk about that.
Woman: Why do you think that? Because I read – well, I’ve read the book and I disagree with your reasons and that being because she has gotten rid –
J.K. Rowling has gotten rid of all of the parental figures, has taken so much from Harry. I mean, the one source of sort of real family…
Ben: A mother. A mother figure.
Woman: She’s Molly!
Jamie: I’ve always thought she’s a very interesting character.
Woman: So that’s why we disagree with the odds you’ve put on the fact that Molly’s going to die.
Jamie: She’s been one of my favorite characters from book – in books 1, 2, 3 and 4, but it was something she did in Book 5 that annoyed me a lot and I haven’t really forgiven her. Do you remember when they were in the kitchen and her and Sirius were arguing and she was like – no, Sirius said “He’s not your son,” and then she was like “Well, he’s as good as,” and then she was like, “He’s not James, Sirius,” and that really upset me because he was my favorite character, Sirius, and I thought that was really mean of her.
Jamie: I don’t like her now at all.
Ben: There’s actually a moment in the fifth movie, because we’ve seen it, where Sirius says “Good job, James.” and like – it’s almost, like – it’s almost a sad moment because, you know, he misses his friend, that type of thing. But in terms of Molly, you know, I just think there’s too many Weasleys for them all to make it through unscathed.
Emerson: It’s simple probability. There’s only so many characters on the Order of the Phoenix working against Voldemort and half of them are Weasleys, so…
Ben: We have the first person walking out from our predictions.
Andrew: They’re a very vulnerable family, though.
Audience Member: Kill Percy.
Woman: Not Molly.
[Audience talks over each other and yells out “Yeah, Percy”]
Ben: Yeah, but Molly – okay, for example. We see Molly – Molly shows some
true vulnerability in Order of the Phoenix when there’s the scene with the boggart.
Audience Member: Yes!
Ben: When everybody drops dead. She’s sees everybody being dead in front of her. Now something that’s interesting – I forget where I read this, but the one character that we did not see dead in front of her was Ginny. And I have no idea why that could be, but it’s just interesting that she fears the death of even Harry, but – just, I don’t know. It’s just…
Jamie: In some ways she’s like Voldemort because she’s scared of death, but completely different from Voldemort because she’s scared of the deaths of other people rather than herself.
Emerson: That could very well be because Harry only saw so many characters flash before her that she cares about. She could just sit there and do it all day thinking about her barber, you know, and her dentist too, who she didn’t want to die.
Ben: And I just think that Molly would be a good character for death. I mean, she – I just think it would fit because…
Andrew: Because she’s another…
Ben: She’s going to be out there – I think she’ll be out there on the frontline. I mean she’s a member of the Order. She’s not going – she’s going to be in harms way.
Jamie: How powerful is she, though?
Ben: We haven’t ever really seen her display her magical power. Now, back to Ginny. In the fifth movie we see Ginny just basically, in the Hall of Prophecy scene, she brings down the house. It’s awesome.
Ben: And I think that Ginny had to get that from somewhere and perhaps Molly shares some of the same qualities. Perhaps Molly is actually a very powerful witch that we haven’t really seen yet.
Audience Member: And her brothers are really powerful – weren’t they the ones that got killed by Voldemort themselves?
Jamie: Oh, ummm…
Ben: The Prewetts? Was she a Prewett?
Jamie: She’s a Prewett, yeah.
Ben: Yeah. The Prewetts. So, I think that, yeah, it would make sense. I don’t know. [mumbles something] Sign me up, right now.
Andrew: It’s been proven, though, that she’s a parental figure and Harry’s losing all of these parental figures and if Molly did die, this would just make Harry, as if he’s not already, but very much, much more angry.
Ben: Now, personally I think that the catalyst for Harry – In Book 7 I think in the opening Harry’s going to seem kind of lost. And it’s going to be – he’s not going to know exactly what to do and the moment in the book – I think one of the first characters we are going to see die is Hagrid.
[Audience yells at this idea]
Will Hagrid Die First?
Ben: No, just follow me, here. This is going to make the story very good because Harry – Harry’s going to be basically screwing around, you know. He’s not going to have it together, and then at that one moment when Hagrid dies – Hagrid is the one that introduced him to the Wizarding world. That is obviously going to be a very emotional death for him and I think, once that
happens, that’s going to be the catalyst that’s going to make Harry finally say, “You know what? No one’s stopping me”. And – I can definitely see that happening.
Jamie: I don’t know. I could say that the deaths so far that have been in the sixth book are going to be enough. But, I just can’t see Hagrid dying because he’s just too – you know, in Order of the Phoenix when they’re taking their O.W.L exam – the spells just bounce off of him, right until the end of the sixth book when Snape is running away. He, you know, Hagrid is a very powerful figure even though he holds his wand piece by piece with an umbrella.
Ben: I have a feeling that someone’s going to bring up the alchemy thing. Has anyone else read that? About Black, Albus, and Rubeus would be red? So it’s like a triangle – I dunno what it is – but it would just complete, like, the three things in alchemy if Rubeus was to die.
Jamie: You have a question there?
Question: The Two Deaths and The Reprieve?
Audience Member: Wasn’t it that Jo said that two people we’ve known the entire series are going to die in Book 6? Book 7 – that’s it. You guys are killing way too many people off.
Andrew: No, wait.
Ben: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, she said that two characters originally slated for death… Two characters that were going to live…
Andrew: Going to live…
Ben: …are going to die now, and one got a reprieve.
Jamie: Got a reprieve.
Ben: So, but she didn’t say those would be the only deaths in the book. Those are just the two that are guaranteed.
[Audience Member replies]
Ben: She wasn’t really that specific about it. She said that two characters that were originally going to live now are going to die, and one character
who was going to die now is going to live.
Jamie: Person over there?
Question: What’s With Harry’s Eyes?
Audience Member: Yeah, I wonder if you have any theories about what the story is on Harry’s eyes. He’s been told again and again and again that “You have your mother’s eyes.” And I just had some information too – Harry is always very anxious to put on his glasses. Even on rewatching the Chamber of Secrets film, there’s a time when the Basilisk is after him – he’s flat on the floor and the Basilisk is right behind him. You know what he does? He stops and picks up his glasses. Now, I wouldn’t have done that.
Andrew: I don’t know if we can…
Jamie: What’s his perscription?
Emerson: Yeah, I think the thing about the glasses is that he has difficulty seeing?
Jamie: Difficulty seeing.
Emerson: So maybe he just has really bad vision and just can’t see.
Ben: But no, but no, but no. Looking at it from the perspective that that means a coincidence – that, someone born with – you know the thing with J.K. Rowling is that every tiny little detail – she does not waste words. Every tiny detail she puts in is significant.
Audience Member: Wouldn’t you find it kind of odd, though, that in the Wizard World, you would use glasses?
Jamie: Yeah, that is true. Yeah.
Audience Member: You know, we can do all these other things with magic we can’t fix …
Emerson: That is true, actually. Why would he need glasses?
Ben: Why can’t he just Reparo his eyes?
[Audience laughs and talks]
Andrew: Well, that’s like saying, that’s like saying, that’s also like saying…
Jamie: And with a war going on. You’d think that the magic – can’t solve everything.
Andrew: Why do wizards have to go the bathroom? Why isn’t there a spell that…
Emerson: Even us Muggles can fix eye problems with Lasik surgery. You’d think wizards…
Ben: Perhaps, Lasik eye surgery hasn’t been introduced…
Jamie: To Hogwarts. Yeah.
Ben: What would Arthur Weasley think about Lasik surgery?
Emerson: What you were saying though about the connection about Harry’s eyes and why they’re important – we know it has something to do with love. Throughout the books we see love is the power that Voldemort knows not. In the Department of Mysteries, that room they can’t get into clearly is love, Harry’s eyes being green is probably a sign that love has formed within him because of the sacrifice that Lily made for him, which has kept him – even if he is a Horcrux, or if he’s not a Horcrux, either way it’s kept him good, it kept him real, and the gleam of triumph that Dumbledore has in the fourth book when he finds out that Voldemort now has Harry’s blood running through him, clearly also has to do with the fact that now Voldemort is vulnerable in a way that he never was before because he has this toxic substance running through him.
Emerson: So, we don’t know how it’s all going to tie together, but we know that’s what it is.
Jamie: I think that the eyes are frequently referred to as the, “window to the soul.” And after what we’ve talked about with Harry and his Horcrux, it could be important in that.
Ben: [to audience member] Go ahead.
Question: Is Snape Loyal to Dumbledore?
[Audience Member aks questions about Snape’s loyalty to Dumbledore]
Ben: Why is Snape in debt with Dumbledore?
Audience Member: Because Dumbledore saved his life by telling Snape to kill him.
Ben: Oh, oh, wow!
Andrew: That’s impressive.
Ben: That’s very impressive.
Audience Member: And as we also know, there is another debt with James because James went back when Lupin was a werewolf and he didn’t know.
Jamie: So he has to save the day twice?
Audience Member: So, I was thinking, the closest person to Dumbledore is Harry, and Harry is James’ son, so I think that he’s going to pay both of those debts in turn by placing himself between Harry and Voldemort.
Ben: That is a very good point.
Jamie: Very good.
Ben: And something interesting about that is that, like you’re saying, Dumbledore talks about the life debts a lot, and how it literally ate Snape alive, the fact that James saved his life. He absolutely hated that. And you know, it would make sense for a wizard’s life debt to carry on – even though Dumbledore is dead, I think, like you said, that Snape would still owe a life debt in some way to Dumbledore and that could obviously be fulfilled by saving Harry.
Jamie: And also, I’d say that Snape is a very loyal, a very traditional values person, so I think he’d take a life debt very seriously.
Question: Is Dudley in Debt to Harry?
Audience Member: Do you think Dudley has a life debt to Harry from Harry saving him from the dementors?
Ben: I think Dudley – see the thing is, I don’t know. You said does Dudley have a life debt to Harry from saving him from the dementors? I don’t think it makes sense. Dudley’s not a wizard, so I don’t know.
Emerson: Yeah, it only applies to wizards.
Audience Member: Or is he?
Jamie: Yeah, I read something about him gaining powers in later life, I can’t remember where it was.
[Audience Member says something]
Jamie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know. [to another Audience Member] Just there.
Question: How Important Will Ginny Be?
Audience Member: Okay, I have a question. How important do you think Ginny is going to be in Book 7?
Jamie: We’ve discussed this a lot. Okay, I think…
Ben: “How important is Ginny going to be in Book 7?” was the question.
Jamie: I’ve always thought she’s going to be important, not because she’s powerful magically, because comparatively she’s not, but she’s going to be the breaking point for Harry. I saw this film a while ago where someone – and this is a ridiculous analogy – but this person is holding a gun at someone, and he doesn’t want to kill them because he’s a good person, but he sees in a flashback the person who he is about to kill is killing one of his family members. So… [to audience member] Sorry?
Audience Member: The movie is Sin.
Jamie: Oh yeah, that’s the one. [laughs] And then he shoots him. I think it’s going to be like that. You know, Harry would find it hard to be a killer, I think, even with Voldemort. He’s, you know, Dumbledore says in Book 5, it isn’t easy to kill, you know, not many people could kill.
Jamie: I can imagine Ginny being a sort of catalyst that breaks Harry and then turns him into an animal for the five minutes when he kills him.
Andrew: We had a lengthy discussion on this in March when we did the little live podcast in England, and a lot of people were saying that if Ginny would die, if someone killed Ginny, that would be another breaking point for Harry because Harry is losing a girl. Yeah, basically. Someone who is very special to Harry. That would completely send him over the edge to kill Voldemort.
Ben: Right, and I think – obviously, love is the power the Dark Lord knows not and…
Andrew: You think, or?
Andrew: You think?
Ben: I think, well, I think Ginny is going to be very significant because Dumbledore flat out tells Harry that he has to rely on his friends because without that support structure that he has around him, he’s nothing. And…
Ben: So he’s going to need Ginny. Ginny’s going to be very significant in the sense that he’s with – you know, someone for Harry, a shoulder to cry on, whatever he needs.
Audience Member: I also think there’s more to Ginny than meets the eye.
Jamie: There is, yeah.
Audience Member: People underestimate her a lot.
Jamie: It’s a different kind of love, as well. Do you know, with like, his love for her is more romantic, whereas for Dumbledore it’s a, you know, paternal, sort of…
Jamie: …for guiding. Even Sirius, his godfather. Sorry?
Audience Member: Isn’t she the last descendant?
Andrew: Yeah. Right.
Ben: Oooh. And if love is the power the Dark Lord knows not, then perhaps – I could see the series ending… Jamie mentioned that Harry isn’t a killer, so perhaps the series could end in someway where Harry gets to the final battle, and Harry says, “You know what?” He just turns his back. “I’m not going to do this. This isn’t worth it.” And then…
Jamie: And he kills Ginny, yeah.
Ben: And then, no, and then Voldemort tries to kill Harry, and it rebounds again or something like that.
Jamie: And then she writes another seven books.
Ben: That could go full circle. I mean, can you see that just going full circle?
Ben: That’d be great. I just figured it out.
Jamie: Question back there?
Audience Member: I just wanted to say, I actually think Ginny’s magical powers are important. I thought it was interesting in the fifth movie that they made a point on several occasions of pointing out just how powerful she was when they took out so many other things.
[Audience Member continues to speak]
Jamie: For anyone who didn’t hear that, she said that Ginny, they made a point in the fifth book that – sorry, in the fifth movie that they had to cut out a lot of stuff, and they kept making points that Ginny was ridiculously powerful, like in the Hall of Prophecies, they were saying, you know, she did a spell and everything fell down. So…
Andrew: I just don’t know if we could take the movie so literally, though.
Ben: No, we can thought. No, hold on a second. We can, though, because in Order of the Phoenix, in the movie, there’s already foreshadowing. David Heyman, the producer of the films, is a big time Harry Potter fan, and there’s obvious foreshadowing of Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione. Ron and Hermione is a lot more obvious, but we see Harry and Ginny because when Harry goes to kiss Cho, Ginny kind of lingers behind and we see Ginny look back…
Ben: …and then she finally leaves. So, you know, I’ve already had the privilege of seeing the movie twice, so I was able to pick up on more of these subtle things, and I think that the fact that Ginny – the fact that Ginny is so powerful, they wouldn’t put that in there for no reason. Like, they made a very distinct point of bringing that up.
Emerson: Also, who else noticed that when Sirius is showing Harry the Black family tree, that they just happened to, in the background, have Arcturus there? Arcturus…
Ben: J.K. Rowling had a lot to do with that scene, we asked.
Andrew: That was completely – they sent – J.K. Rowling sent the entire tree to them, so they made it. I mean, you know, it could’ve been just a good camera angle that we saw.
Emerson: But either way, the fact that it’s on the tree and so prominent in the movie is more evidence that R.A.B. – not that we need more evidence at this point, but R.A.B. is Regulus Arcturus Black.
Emerson: Yeah, I think we got a consensus there, so we won’t stay on this too long.
Jamie: Far to the back.
Rebuttal: Snape is Working For Voldemort
Audience Member: I have a rebuttal. Earlier on you guys talked about how Snape acted on the information of Sirius in the Department of Mysteries proves that he’s good, but I’m a firm believer that Snape is working for Voldemort.
[Audience Member continues to talk]
Ben: Right, she was… Right, but you have to remember that what Harry said to Snape was so incredibly vague, that if Snape – Snape could’ve just pretended to not know anything, you know? Like he says – when Umbridge says [imitates Umbridge], “Severus, what is he talking about?” And then he turns and says [imitates Snape], “I have no idea.” You know? So he obviously had an idea, but he could’ve played dumb. I mean, there’s no doubt about it. I mean, he wouldn’t have to answer to anybody about that, because it was so vague the way that Harry put it, that, you know, what if he really didn’t understand? What if that was, you know, Pig Latin to him?
[Audience Member continues to make argument]
Ben: Okay, so perhaps Snape would’ve had to answer to somebody, but I don’t think that that proves that he’s evil.
Emerson: I don’t even agree that he would’ve had to answer to somebody. He could’ve just, like Ben said, he could’ve just pretended not to know. And who knows? Harry could’ve died that night, or some other Order members could’ve died, like a lot happened that saved them. I mean, the fact that he alerted the Order, to me, is just a huge, huge clue. There’s any number of ways he could’ve explained that away, any number of ways. He could’ve just – if he would’ve done nothing, then Harry would’ve, you know?
[End of audio]