Transcript #641

Episode #641:

 

MuggleCast 641 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #641, Freshly Floo’d Toast (GOF Chapter 11, Aboard the Hogwarts Express)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, grab your luggage and raincoat because we are choo-chooing back into the wizarding world with Chapter 11 of Goblet of Fire, “Aboard the Hogwarts Express.” Micah is not here this week. Sitting in for Micah, not just the following sound effect…

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … but also one of our patrons, longtime Slug Club member Ning Xi! Ning Xi, welcome to the show.

Ning Xi: Hello, I’m so excited to be here!

Andrew: We’re very excited to have you. You are coming to us from Singapore today.

Ning Xi: Yes.

Andrew: Ning Xi even took off work for this! Wow.

Laura: That’s dedication.

Ning Xi: Yes.

Andrew: Instead of taking off work this week, Micah took off MuggleCast. The tables have turned.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Micah is working; you’re not working. It’s great.

Eric: Well, all we really needed was that audio clip for this week, right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah.

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

Andrew: We’re good.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Because if Micah were here, he would be contributing “Choo-choo.”

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

Andrew: Exactly.

Laura: Right. Only that. Nothing else.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, of course we miss Micah, but it is a chapter that he feels… this is a chapter he would love because the chapter is “Aboard the Hogwarts Express,” and he loves the…

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

[Eric laughs]

Ning Xi: We should try to squeeze that into the Seven-Word Summary.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric and Laura: Ooh.

Eric: What if two of the seven words are “choo” and “choo”?

Laura: Yeah, what if that’s the first two?

Eric: Or what if we have two at the end and we don’t know what to do?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Hurray!”

Ning Xi: “Choo-choo.”

Andrew: So Ning Xi, let’s get your fandom ID before we go any further.

Ning Xi: Okay, so my favorite book is Prisoner of Azkaban. My favorite movie is Deathly Hallows – Part 1 because I love camping. What can I say?

[Eric laughs]

Ning Xi: My Hogwarts House is Gryffindor. My Ilvermorny House is Thunderbird. The Wizarding World tells me that my Patronus is a bay mare, which I reject, so it’s actually a rabbit.

[Everyone laughs]

Ning Xi: My wand is twelve and three quarter inches, laurel wood with a phoenix core, and solid flexibility.

Andrew: Fantastic. Well, thank you again for joining us today. We’re very excited to have you. You’ve been a longtime supporter, and we’re just so grateful for your support. Ning Xi will also join us for bonus MuggleCast today; bonus MuggleCast installments are coming to our paid Apple Podcasts subscription starting this week. For just $4.99 a month, you can sign up for MuggleCast Gold, in which you’ll receive ad-free early access to our main show plus two new bonus MuggleCast installments every month, in which we discuss all kinds of things like the latest wizarding world news. This week we’ll discuss recent news about Hogwarts Legacy; it’s the top-selling game of the year – meaning 2023…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … and Warner Bros. is teasing more projects in the wizarding world to come, so we’ll talk about that. And we’re also going to touch on what we would like to see added to Hogwarts Legacy if they ever add anything, because they haven’t yet, which is odd. Also a reminder – I’m wearing the beanie right now – the MuggleCast overstock store is open again. This is where you can buy MuggleCast merch and help support the show, and we have this new Comfy Cozy Combo Pack which consists of the MuggleCast beanie and socks. You can purchase this new combo set for $25, which is cheaper than buying the socks and beanie separate, and you’ll be warm on both ends of your Muggle body for winter, so check it out at MuggleMillennial.etsy.com.

Laura: And finally, we just want to give thanks to anyone who leaves us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Featuring a review that we got this past week from Ultrawilde, who gave us a five-star review and said, “Spellbinding! These are the best group of Harry Potter-obsessed friends you’ll ever have. Truly the OG’s of the podcast game, don’t know where the fandom would be without them!”

Andrew: Thank you!

Laura: Thank you so much. That is so sweet.

Andrew: Yeah, and thank you to everybody who leaves a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So let’s get into Chapter by Chapter. This week we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 11, “Aboard the Hogwarts Express,” and we’ll start like we always do with our Seven-Word Summary. Ning Xi is going to kick things off for us. Will it be a “choo”? We’re about to find out.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: What if she sneezes and we’re like, “She did it; she did ‘choo’!” and then she’ll be like, “No, I was just sneezing.”

[Laura and Ning Xi laugh]

Andrew: All right, here we go.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Ning Xi: Traveling…

Laura: … by…

Andrew: … train… [laughs]

Eric: … proves…

Ning Xi: … informative…

Laura: … for…

Andrew: … Harry. For a second there, Laura, I really thought you were going to end this with “choo” and then I was going to come in with a “choo.”

[Everyone laughs]

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Andrew and Laura: “Traveling by train proves informative, choo-choo.”

Eric: “Choo-choo!”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, we would have gotten the message across still. [laughs]

Eric: Ning Xi, you did great, especially because you did double duty filling in for Micah here.

Laura: Yes.

Ning Xi: Oh, it’s fine. I definitely did not stress over this. [laughs] “Why am I starting this?”

Laura: Good.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: So this chapter begins with the summer break about to end and an urgent call from the Ministry comes in, and Harry listens in as Amos Diggory via fireplace delivers some news to Arthur about Mad-Eye. Overnight, someone tried to break into Mad-Eye’s house, and in addition to this being our introduction to Mad-Eye, this is also the first time we’re seeing someone communicate via fire. So I actually wanted to start talking about communicating via fireplace via the Floo Network, because I’ve got a couple of questions concerning this. So first of all, why did Rowling choose fire as the method for communication and transportation? Transportation I can maybe understand, because fire could arguably represent, let’s say, you’re being cremated, you’re being transformed… that’s a bit of a dark example. Fire represents a lot of things, but communication is not one of them. And head-only transportation is another aspect of utilizing the Floo Network, seemingly only for a chat and maybe a piece of toast, which we will also get to. But was this the right branch of magic to put a glorified telephone call under? I would argue this method of communication should be unassociated with the Floo Network, because these two things don’t really tie together for me. Why is this under the Floo Network? And why does it have to be via fireplace? [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, it’s a good question, especially because in the next book, as we’ve established, we do get the wizarding version of DMs. [laughs] So it’s interesting that this was chosen. I was thinking, Andrew, when you were mentioning that fire can be representative of a rebirth or turning into something else, it can also be representative of cleansing things, too, and I wonder if there was some kind of intentional choice with those two themes in mind around the idea of travel and the idea of communication, that somehow fire plays a part in whatever transformation you go through, metaphorically if there is one, or if it incentivizes more truthfulness. It feels like a stretch, but also, I’m trying to figure out why exactly fireplaces specifically.

Eric: I think I have a take on that, which is the… and I like the Floo Network in general. I think that one of the reasons the Floo Network was chosen for travel is because even the oldest cottages back from the Dark Ages had chimneys.

Andrew: Ohh.

Laura: True.

Eric: So a chimney is something that everyone has, and so you could potentially easily connect to other wizards no matter where they are. No matter how remote they are, everyone’s got a fireplace. So that idea coupled with how the Floo Network, we’re told it works, where a grate has to be added to the network – and we find out in later books, too, you can take a grate off and things like that – that actually is very, very, very much akin to how telephones were. When telephones first started out, they had to manually be… I mean, there was a manual switchboard, wires run under the ground to everyone’s home. And so when we see Amos Diggory here FaceTiming, essentially, the Weasleys, I think it has to do with the convergent evolution of phones into video call devices.

Laura and Ning Xi: Yeah.

Eric: Because she took that… the Floo Network very much was a telephone-style network, so if that was to evolve into a face medium, like a video medium, then the equivalent would be you travel but only partially to… does that make sense?

Ning Xi: Kind of makes sense.

Laura: I like it.

Eric: I think it’s kind of based on how the Floo Network was set up to begin with. Okay, so Rowling was probably like, “Hey, if the telephone evolved into the video phone, then my equivalent of the telephone has to evolve into the video phone somehow.”

Andrew: Interesting.

Ning Xi: Actually, I just had a sudden thought when Eric was talking about the chimneys. Do you think very, very ancient wizards used smoke signals with the chimney?

Eric: I mean, possibly.

Ning Xi: Maybe that’s why they kept the fireplace system. And then they were like, “Look, we can improve this communication by actually going through it,” or something.

Laura: That is so cool.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, the Vatican still uses smoke signals.

[Laura laughs]

Ning Xi: Yes, they do.

Andrew: Yeah. Okay, yeah.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I love that idea. It adds a layer, I think, because as Eric, you were talking, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this makes total sense,” that wizards would assume, or at least wizards in the UK would be like, “Well, everybody has a chimney,” when it’s like, well, in reality, not everybody has a chimney around the world. But I love, Ning Xi, how you added this layer of like, “No, no, it was the ancient cultures that did this, and the Europeans just took it and made it their own.”

Eric: And also, I mean, keep in mind how weird it is to Arthur Weasley at the beginning of this book that the Dursleys have boarded up their fireplace.

Andrew: [laughs] “How do you talk?”

Eric: Yeah, he views it like a major thoroughfare, like everyone’s chimney is actually their front door, because I think to wizards, it is in a way.

Andrew: This question got me thinking, what other common household item could have been a phone instead of the fireplace? I was thinking a portrait, of course; we know you can talk to portraits to some extent. But how about something a little more original? How about a house plant, and the head pops up as a new bulb on the top of the plant, and the leaves are like arms so they can be all animated? I thought that could be fun.

Eric: I only like this, Andrew, if it’s the old style telephone where you have the mouthpiece and the receiver…

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Eric: … and you’re putting the bulb of a flower to your ear and having to talk into the stem. That would be really lovely.

Laura: Honestly, that sounds like nightmare fuel to me.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It kind of does, yeah. Just picturing one of y’all’s heads on top of a plant kind of scares me. No offense.

[Laura laughs]

Ning Xi: Yeah, especially at night.

Andrew: Yes. Or I was thinking a lamp, because it’s the light bulb, an idea, so it turns on… but anyway, thank you for your reasoning here, panel, because I just thought it was so interesting that the telephone call was an extension of the Floo Network, even though it’s already used for something pretty powerful. So it does two things.

Eric: It’s a good point.

Laura: What I’m thinking about now that we’ve made the FaceTime connection… I think we all know people who will unprompted FaceTime call you.

Andrew: Oh, I hate that.

Laura: Yeah, not my jam either. What happens if somebody tries to Floo call you and you don’t want to take the call? Can you decline it?

Andrew: Great question.

Laura: Or does their head just pop up in your fireplace?

Eric: Can they see into your living room?

Ning Xi: Just throw water on it.

Andrew: Yeah, at any moment that they want. See, Vernon is smart for boarding up his fireplace because he had this thought, Laura, many years ago.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Vernon was the original… privacy protected the webcam.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I was like, “Where did Eric’s camera go?” [laughs] I missed him thumbing it…

Eric: No, I literally have one of those… I have those little…

Ning Xi: A slider?

Eric: I have a webcam slider thing. It came with my laptop case.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: But yeah, it’s crazy to think about that. Maybe the fire needs to be started, like going. I think it’s probably a movie-ism that you can take an empty fireplace and just throw the powder down or whatever. But I think maybe if you start the fire, that opens the call, so you’re available. It’s like the equivalent of unplugging the cord from the… I mean, many people listening won’t know what I’m talking about…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … but unplugging the telephone cable from the wall when you didn’t want to take a call, and you’d get a busy signal.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Ning Xi: Maybe they just throw water if like, “Oh, no, I do not want to talk to this person.” Get a bucket of water and…

Eric: Get a bucket. Throw it on the flames.

Andrew: We don’t have to get in the nitty gritty here, but they got this call from Amos in the morning, so was the fire lit in the morning? Maybe it could have been, but it was also summertime so they probably wouldn’t have it lit.

Eric: Well, and wizarding homes… that’s the other thing; I mean, Britain is cold even in the summer, and there’s not a lot of indoor climate control in a lot of places, so you probably always do have a fire going, to be honest. But maybe wizarding homes probably always have the fire going unless they don’t want to take a call.

Andrew: Or that’s how Molly was grilling her toast.

[Ning Xi laughs]

Andrew: She was keeping it over the fire and that’s why she offered Amos that piece of toast. Of course, we do have to address that the way the movies handled the fireplace phone call… it was really bad, particularly in Goblet of Fire. It just did not look good with Sirius’s head popping out of the embers.

Laura: No.

Andrew: Whereas in Order of the Phoenix it was a little bit better; you see him in the flame. They realized how they did it in Goblet was not good. So it’ll be interesting to see what they do with the television adaptation, if it’ll be any better.

Laura: Well, they listened to us trash the Goblet of Fire effect – because we definitely did here on the show – and they were like, “Ugh, okay.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s even more… the way it’s described in the book – I was paying close attention to this during this reread – it’s just more canonical the way they have it in Movie 5. Nobody ever said the embers themselves were constructing the face.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: And that’s why they did it this way in Movie 4. Somebody had an idea that they ran with in this movie, and it fell a little flat.

Laura: So despite the fact that Amos may have called super early in the morning, maybe much to the chagrin of Molly and Arthur, he actually is calling with important information, and it’s that Mad-Eye Moody – brand new character alert – has been attacked at his home. And it’s particularly concerning for some reason, because it’s the day before he’s starting his new job. Hmm, wonder where? And just wanted to call out here… I thought we could do this throughout this book, have something called “Keeping an Eye on Mad-Eye” to look at all of the clues that come up throughout the book about Barty Crouch, Jr. actually being imposter Moody. And this is the point where Mad-Eye Moody is attacked in his home; this is the point where Crouch Jr. kidnaps him and ultimately Polyjuice Potions himself into him and holds him hostage for the next 10 months.

Andrew and Ning Xi: Yeah.

Ning Xi: Poor Mad-Eye, though, honestly.

Andrew: Yeah, for real. And Mad-Eye had the dustbins as a security system, and it’s assumed during this chapter that he set up those dustbins and they went off like they should as he intended, but we later learn that it was Crouch Jr. who purposely set them off as a distraction.

Eric: It’s so smart. Barty Crouch, Jr. as a character… we’re just getting into going through the reread where he becomes a factor, and he’s pretty talented. And despite his leanings, which are very concerning – he is in fact a Death Eater and a very loyal supporter to Voldemort – but aside from that one little fact, I think this guy is great. I think he’s really cool.

Andrew: Yeah. Wow.

Eric: Certainly accomplished.

[Andrew laughs]

Ning Xi: He gets the job done.

Eric: Yeah. So I don’t want to eat my words, but I think I’ll be keeping track of other cool or accomplished… impressive moments for Barty Crouch.

Andrew: Okay.

Ning Xi: Also, for the TV series, I kind of hope they show this scene at the start of the episode. Somebody got attacked or something as the starting point before they have the opening credits; you know how they do that. So yeah, I think that would be cool.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: I mean, Goblet of Fire didn’t open with this – the movie, I’m referring to – but it opened with…

Eric: Frank Bryce.

Andrew: Frank Bryce, right, yeah. Something like that, like a cold open, so to speak. Well, speaking of the toast, which we’ve mentioned a couple of times, let’s circle back to this just for a moment. I thought it was really funny that Molly does offer Amos some toast.

Eric: Yeah, it’s just a funny sight gag, how weird it is for somebody’s face to be in your fireplace, but then Molly is able to pass food to him. And it’s toast, which if she screws it up, still is going to taste good because the fire is going to toast it a little bit more.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So this is just a very… for me, reading that… I know every time I read this chapter, I’m just like, “I love magic. That’s so fun.” The fact that you… it’s my “I love magic” moment in Goblet.

Andrew: [laughs] So we need a MuggleCast T-shirt that has a picture of toast being fed into a fireplace and it says “I love magic” underneath it.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s what impresses us most about the wizarding world.

Ning Xi: Toast.

Eric: Being fed through…

Andrew: Toast. The transfer of toast through a fireplace.

Laura: Toast is pretty great.

Eric: Well, and if you think about how many hundreds of miles away Amos’s body is from his mouth, that’s where the magic is impressive.

Laura and Ning Xi: Yeah.

Laura: And see, this is another example of how the wizarding world defies physics. I wish that we had brought this one up when we did the physics of Harry Potter discussion because it would have been really interesting to try and explain how that works.

Eric: It’s a portal.

Ning Xi: Yeah, it’s a portal.

Eric: It’s different than splinching because you’re not cut off at any point. It’s just your head’s going through a portal.

Andrew: It could be a way – and sorry, this is another dark thought from me for this episode – could this magic be used to solve world hunger? Let’s say a food desert. People could walk up to a fireplace and be fed food from areas of the world where food is more easily accessible. I don’t know why this jumped to my mind, but it did.

Laura: And they can also apparently duplicate food…

Andrew: Right.

Ning Xi: Oh, yeah.

Laura: … and pass it through the Floo FaceTime network.

Eric: We solved world hunger.

Laura: Yeah, work smarter, not harder, man!

Eric: We solved wizarding world hunger just now.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It would also be a really cute way to easily enjoy a home-cooked meal while you were, say, at Hogwarts for term. So Ron is like, “Oh, I’m hungry. I’m missing Mom’s delicious toast and eggs.” And then he walks up to the fireplace, unlocks his jaw…

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: … and Molly just tosses a bunch of breakfast into his mouth. “Thanks, Mom.”

Laura: But then he’d have to…

Andrew: But let’s get back to Mad-Eye. [laughs]

Laura: Oh yeah, go ahead. Let’s keep it moving.

[Laura and Ning Xi laugh]

Andrew: Okay, we start to learn about Mad-Eye; this is the first time for both Harry and the reader. He’s a former Auror admired by Arthur and Dumbledore. George, however, thinks he’s a bit of a nutter, and Bill counters that he was a great wizard in his time, and as we later learn, of course, he still is.

Eric: I think it’s really interesting watching everyone talk about Mad-Eye Moody. So we’re learning about this, and the Weasley kids are there talking about it, too, and Mad-Eye’s reputation is called into account. He’s called “Mad-Eye” for many reasons. But there’s this opinion that he’s kind of lost his touch, and “He’s so paranoid in his old age, oh my God.” And it’s funny to see him be so discredited because as we’ve established, he actually has been attacked; it was a credible attempt on his freedom, and in fact, they were successful. So it’s funny to see it being couched as “He’s paranoid” and “Probably a small cat or something set off the dustbins,” because it allows us to not be as suspicious. So it’s hiding in plain sight, what really happened, and that makes for clever writing.

Andrew: And the dustbins themselves feed that idea that he is nuts, because who would turn dustbins into a security system? Only a nutter like Mad-Eye.

Eric: Clearly he’s losing it.

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Eric: And listening to the kind of people that do respect Mad-Eye, it’s people like Dumbledore, and Dumbledore is also not fully credible. I think we… well, this is a conversation that happens in this chapter, too, that “Dad collects plugs,” and Arthur loves Mad-Eye, but there you have it. So again, it’s really smart to call into question the capability and the sanity of Mad-Eye, especially in advance of his year of teaching at Hogwarts, because it allows us to suspect nothing.

Andrew: Harry is about to find out in I guess the next chapter that Mad-Eye is going to be their DADA teacher, too, so it’s also setting up that. [laughs] Congrats, here’s teacher number four, and he’s a nutjob. Enjoy.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: What do you think, Ning Xi?

Ning Xi: I think whether there is also an element of Mad-Eye being the boy who cried wolf too many times. So everybody’s like, “Eh, it’s not really worth investigating because it’s clearly a false alarm,” so nobody ever bothers to put in even a modicum of effort to try and see if there’s an issue. And I think even in the real world this happens a lot, so it’s reflective of that as well.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Ning Xi: I mean, in an ideal world, of course, any complaints would get investigated or at least checked out, and I wonder how differently the story would have went if there was even a seed of suspicion or doubt that was planted from this initial incident with Mad-Eye.

Laura: Yeah, I agree with that. And I love that you brought this up, Ning Xi, because it really made me think about how this compares to Frank Bryce and what Frank Bryce goes through earlier in this book. So his community is so quick to accept the idea of him being a murderer because in their minds, the war turned him funny, right? The war did something to him; he’s never been the same since the war trauma he went through. And Mad-Eye is also someone who carries both literal and metaphorical war wounds that are used in this case to invalidate him as just being paranoid and to remove his credibility, which makes him the perfect target.

Eric: This also brings up, I think, a recurring theme now at this point in the book, which is the complacency that the wizarding world at large has fallen into. Another reason of the many that they don’t believe Mad-Eye is in any danger, that any Death Eater, anybody untoward would seek him out, is because they largely believe that Death Eaters aren’t around anymore, that all of them are in Azkaban, even though they’ve just been proven wrong within the last week or so by the emergence of a bunch of them at the Quidditch World Cup. Everyone still thinks that it’s safe, and who would ever go after Mad-Eye? He’s an Auror; you can get more than you’re bargaining for there. But it’s true.

Andrew: Is this another point for your “Barty Crouch, Jr. is pretty good, actually” count, Eric?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It could be. I’m going to have to get a sound effect if we keep getting so many counts so quickly…

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Eric: … and it’d probably be that ridiculous line from the movie. [imitating Barty Crouch, Jr.] “Hello, Father,” or something.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Eric is a really good voice actor.

Laura: You have to do the weird tongue thing too.

[Eric makes a weird tongue noise]

[Laura and Ning Xi laugh]

Eric: I think that it’s testament to the environment that Barty Crouch, Jr. is able to navigate and traverse through. I mean, presumably, he threw off his father’s Imperius Curse like it ain’t no thing. He did it at the Quidditch World Cup, but there was never any ramifications afterwards. The spell didn’t come down harder. So Barty Crouch, Jr. learning to throw that off, and then said that he’d be able to go and abduct Moody on schedule. [laughs] Because if he misses it, if he’s late by a day, Moody is already at Hogwarts and you’re never going to be able to do this. So yes, Andrew, I would say that that actually is another point for Barty Crouch, Jr.

Andrew: [imitating Barty Crouch, Jr.] “Yes, Father,” or whatever.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “Hello, Father.”

Laura: Eric, you’ve got to record it now.

Ning Xi: Man, David Tennant was so underused in the movies.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: I agree.

Eric: Yeah. Reduced to a plot point with a quiver.

Andrew: So I mentioned Mad-Eye becoming the DADA teacher. We don’t know that he’s going to be the DADA teacher yet. It’s hinted that he’s starting a new job; that’s the only clue. But reading this with the benefit of hindsight, the fact that the new DADA teacher is already in some trouble… if Harry thinks back to this after three years of changing DADA teachers, the writing was on the wall for Mad-Eye at the outset.

Eric and Ning Xi: Yeah.

Eric: And yet, I still appreciate that there’s a twist to it, right? So unlike prior DADA teachers, there’s something new in Mad-Eye. By the end of the book, we learn not only that it wasn’t in fact him, but we do get to see the real Mad-Eye eventually, and so the next couple years… he’s not dissolved into ashes the way Quirrell is and he’s not permanently memory-revoked the way that…

Andrew and Ning Xi: True.

Eric: It’s yet another way for a DADA teacher at Hogwarts to end up, to wind up. And actually, if we consider Barty Crouch, Jr. was actually the DADA teacher, then he got the Dementor’s Kiss at the end of the year, so it works both ways.

Andrew: One more thing regarding the Amos FaceTime call: He uses the phrase “please-men” instead of policemen. It got me thinking, what would please-men actually be? [laughs]

Eric: Well, they would please everybody. They would be very well-loved and a bastion of their community. They would deescalate heavy conflict, they would probably not carry guns, and they’d just be very pleasing maybe to look at. [laughs]

Ning Xi: Oh, like hot firemen calendars?

Andrew and Laura: Yes!

Eric: Like firemen calendars. Exactly, Ning Xi. You got it.

Andrew: When your cat gets stuck in a tree, when your Mrs. Norris gets stuck in a tree, you call up the please-men and “Please come save my cat, man.” And they’re happy to help grab that cat while looking attractive.

Eric: It’d be a simpler world.

Andrew: And then you give them some toast at the end as a thank you.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: All right, so anyway, let’s move on to what happens aboard the Hogwarts Express, this chapter’s namesake. So they get on the train and the trio listen in on Draco discussing Durmstrang, and we learn the Malfoys have a fondness for the school because they do not accept Muggle-borns. Which, by the way, is an interesting tidbit because Hermione later goes to the Yule Ball with Krum, so maybe Krum has something to say about that. Or maybe this is actually a little bit of proof that this actually isn’t true?

Eric: I had forgotten this tidbit that Malfoy throws out, and I have to call him on it. This has to be inaccurate, right, that Durmstrang doesn’t take Muggle-borns? And the reason is, it’s one of three magical wizarding schools in Europe, and there’s simply no way that they’re allowing all of these Muggle-born wizards, who can fully wield a wand and use magic, to not be educated and learn how to use it safely. We never see anybody sent to Hogwarts that’s like, “Oh, I would be going to Durmstrang right now, but I’m Muggle-born, hey.” So I just think it can’t possibly be the case that Durmstrang says “Absolutely not” to Muggle-born.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Ning Xi: Could it…?

Laura: Oh, go ahead, Ning Xi.

Ning Xi: I was just thinking, could it be they have this reputation of not picking Muggle-borns, but somewhere along the line they realize, “Yeah, that’s not going to work; we’ll just quietly take them in”? And it’s not really advertised, so people who want to believe what they believe still think that only pure-bloods go to that school, I guess.

Laura: I like that.

Eric: Yeah, so 14-year-old Malfoy doesn’t understand the whole nuance of it. Man, that makes me feel bad that there’s these second class citizen status Muggle-borns at Durmstrang, where they don’t get to come on the ship to Hogwarts. They’re left behind.

Andrew: Aww.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, my thinking is there probably are. I would assume it’s not a large number of Muggle-born students there, but there are probably some, and to be honest, based on who their headmaster is, it’s probably not the most comfortable environment to be in, which got me thinking about this idea: Maybe there are some Muggle-born students at Durmstrang who “pass” as half-blood or pure-blood somehow. I’m drawing real world comparisons and thinking about the ways that white supremacy has dominated all kinds of spaces, but there have been people over time who have been able to successfully “pass” as white so that they can be in those spaces, which is still a dangerous position for them to be in, but it is a real thing that’s happened. So I’m wondering if that’s possible here with Durmstrang.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, all wizarding governments have to abide by the Statute of Secrecy, so to my mind, again, it doesn’t make sense for them to not educate their Muggle-borns, especially how to not allow your magic to explode out of you.

Andrew: I’m also picturing a wizarding world spinoff TV show… where maybe it’s not set at Durmstrang; maybe it is. I don’t think Durmstrang is a particularly appealing school for HBO to sell a premise around. But it would be cool to see a storyline where there’s a Muggle-born undercover going to a school that doesn’t accept Muggle-borns. I think that’d be fun to see them try to project this image of being from a pure-blood family, a half-blood family. I don’t know what the tension would be there, but to me that sounds like an interesting premise.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Being almost undercover at a wizarding school and trying to pull it off.

Ning Xi: “Undercover Muggle.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: The Undercover Boss spinoff we’ve been waiting for. So more about Durmstrang: Draco also likes that the school lets students learn the Dark Arts, “not just the defense rubbish.” Now, I actually could maybe side with Draco here, and I’m speaking as somebody who has used the Dark Arts spells in Hogwarts Legacy, so maybe I’m very biased here. Eric has not, right? You say you haven’t.

Eric: There’s one of them that Eleanor Rigby has not used yet, and it’s the death curse.

Andrew: [gasps] Avada Kedavra!

Laura: Oh, this is news! I thought you originally didn’t want to use any Unforgivable Curses.

Eric: Oh, you have to use two of the others to beat the game, I’m pretty sure. [laughs]

Laura: Well, but I mean, you don’t have to accept it, right? You won’t beat the game, but you can choose not to learn them.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: No, Laura, I must beat the game.

[Everyone laughs]

Ning Xi: Completionist.

Andrew: He’ll do anything except Avada Kedavra to beat the game.

Eric: Yeah, this one seems more plausible, right? That Durmstrang does have a lean towards the Dark Arts. Grindelwald himself went there. This is book canon that it has not just a reputation, but seems to follow through with it. Again, Laura, your point: Their headmaster is a Death Eater – or former Death Eater, arguably. But so this I get, however, the only Dark Arts examples that we have are things like the killing curse, the torture curse, the “Take away your autonomy and make you do whatever I want you to” curse. We know that killing leaves a mark on your soul; Slughorn says so in Book 6, and that’s… can’t really easily get rid of that. So is it actually a good thing that they’re allowed to do Dark Arts? Because all this Dark stuff is leaving tarnish marks and comes at a cost.

Andrew and Ning Xi: Yeah.

Andrew: I just think it would be helpful to learn more other than the “defense rubbish,” just so you have a complete picture of how the Dark Arts work. Am I suggesting Avada Kedavra on another wizard? Of course not. [laughs] Even an animal, wouldn’t want that. Can you set up dummies maybe to give people a test, just like in Hogwarts Legacy, actually, you got some dummies to play with from time to time?

Eric: [laughs] Well, I was going to say, it’s like telling someone, “You can have a little torture, as a treat.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Where’s the line here? And maybe it is like they do in Hogwarts Legacy – I’m pretty sure that this is accurate – you’re trying to get into Salazar Slytherin’s… is it septorium or something? And your friend has to curse you because in order to get in, it needs to experience the curse, and so you both consent and agree to have the curse performed on you or on him or something like that. That’s something I can see being an example of what would happen in a school where they teach Dark Arts. But if you’re being instructed and it’s straightforward pedagogical lesson, I don’t think you can actually give consent. I don’t know how any of this would actually work in practice.

Laura: I wonder if there’s some wizarding world equivalent to the drunk goggles. Did y’all ever have to use those in high school when you were learning how to drive? And they wanted you to experience what it was like if you were driving drunk, so they would give you these goggles that impaired your vision. And they obviously would not put you behind the wheel of a car, but they would ask you to try to walk around and it was really weird. So they were trying to give you practical experience without actually giving you practical experience.

Andrew: For me, drunk goggles are any pair of prescription glasses.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Like Ning Xi, your glasses.

Ning Xi: Yeah, I’m basically blind without my glasses.

Andrew: There you go.

Ning Xi: I just need to take them off and that will be fine.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: You were going to say something; go ahead.

Ning Xi: Yeah, I mean, because I do research in my day job, I’m coming at it from this angle: In real life, we have labs that actually research on viruses like smallpox or actual dangerous chemicals, so I feel like this could possibly be the same case in the wizarding world. So you learn about the theory, or there’s some sort of controlled environment you can learn about that magic so you can develop a counter-curse, because that’s how we try to research and find cures to things. We have to get access to cancer cells, we have to get access to virus cells, things like that. But of course, everything is very controlled. There’s a lot of different laws and regulations you have to obey in order to do that. Example for a chemical lab in Singapore, if you need to buy chemicals that could potentially be used to make drugs or explosives, you actually need to get a license. Chemicals have to be kept under lock and key, you have to sign out every time you take the chemical out, and you have to record down how much you use it. So I guess you could put in regulations to ensure it happens, but you’ll probably be, I guess, mid level. I don’t really see 11-year-olds running around trying to learn that magic.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: That’s true.

Eric: And that’s the thing: After all those regulations, is it really worth learning Dark Arts, then? Andrew, do you still think it’s more valuable than just the “defense rubbish”? And if only seventh years are doing it, then you can’t really say the school as a whole teaches Dark Arts.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess what has me thinking along these ways is in the next book, they have to put together Dumbledore’s Army to actually get prepared for the fight ahead. That’s sort of what I’m thinking along the lines of.

Eric: Yeah, practical…

Andrew: Of course, the Dark Arts are a unique exception, though. And I’m just in a dark questioning mood tonight, it seems. But anyway…

Laura: Because Micah is not here.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Andrew is shook.

Andrew: I’m shook. I’m shooketh. Let’s talk about something else we learn about Hogwarts. It’s funny to read this for the first time now; it’s something it feels like we’ve known since before we were reading the first book. We learn that Hogwarts is hidden from Muggles; Hermione says all they see is a smoldering old ruin with a sign over the entrance saying, “Danger, do not enter, unsafe.” This is also news to Harry and Ron because unlike Hermione, they have not read Hogwarts: A History, I believe is what she said she reads this in. So it begs a lot of questions, though, about how this exactly works, and we really have never found out since then how this goes down if a Muggle tries to approach. So okay, they see that sign, “Danger, do not enter, unsafe.” But we all know Muggles love exploring abandoned ruins. There’s YouTube channels dedicated to this. I have loved going into empty houses nearby. As a child, behind my house there was another abandoned house; I would go into it from time to time. People love to explore. Naturally, Muggles are going to start exploring this smoldering old ruin. So what does happen if a Muggle walks in? Any guesses? Do the Dark Arts come down on them? Do they get Avada Kedavra‘d?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, there could be…

Ning Xi: Smited to death.

Andrew: That’s how Hogwarts students get to practice. Sorry, go ahead.

Eric: Yeah, there could be secondary charms and things in place; Hermione maybe is only listing the first one. Because if you look at the Quidditch World Cup, we were told that there was an anti-Muggle charm on it that would make you think that you forgot something at home. “Oh, I left the oven on, crap. I can’t ignore that.” Something like that, where initially, yes, it’s a ruin, but if you go closer, then you forget something or you become convinced that somebody that you genuinely love is in ill health and you need to visit them right away. Some kind of psychological deterrent, in addition to… because you’re right; making it a ruin wouldn’t really deter most people, especially now with all the YouTube traveler people that you’re talking about.

Andrew: And drones.

Ning Xi: Yeah. I wonder if maybe it’s like a mirage. You’re like, “Oh, I would still like to go there,” but you just keep walking towards it, but you never quite reach it.

Eric: I like that idea.

Andrew: That’s really cool.

Laura: I do like that.

Andrew: Imagine that YouTube video. “I see it right there, but I can’t get any closer. There’s like, an invisible treadmill moving the other direction, the opposite way.

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Laura: Honestly, and this is why technology ultimately breaks the Statute of Secrecy, because with smartphones and all the YouTubers and urban explorers that y’all are talking about that are out there… sorry, there’s no way that you’re keeping the genie in the bottle here. Muggles are going to find out. [laughs]

Eric: Hey, rich of you to think that video cameras would work at Hogwarts anyway or that close to the…

Andrew: Ohh.

Ning Xi: Oh, yeah.

Eric: It’s like going to haunted houses. It would cut out at the right moment and nothing would be picked up.

Laura: Yeah, but I feel like people would still create clickbait content about places like that. They already do. And I mean, think about if some major magical event goes down in a public Muggle space and somebody happens to video it and put it up on YouTube. You’re done. You gonna Obliviate the Internet?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I don’t think so.

Eric: Did you guys see that supposed alien at the mall in… was it Florida or something? There was a huge cop presence and…

Ning Xi: Oh, yeah.

Eric: There’s little click-baity type stuff like that all the time. I don’t know, Laura, you’ve convinced me we have to go to Scotland and try and find Hogwarts.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Didn’t somebody already do that?

Andrew: Wasn’t there a documentary about that?

Eric: We should videotape it too. Just some friends going and trying to find Hogwarts.

Ning Xi: Get Micah to do that. Isn’t he in Europe now?

Andrew and Laura: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: He’s pretty close.

Eric: That’s it.

Laura: He’s practically right there, right? [laughs]

Andrew: Compared to the rest of us, he’s right in the backyard. I do also like the idea – I can’t remember who said it a few minutes ago, that maybe there’s – maybe it was you, Laura – there’s another rule Hermione doesn’t know about. Maybe the wizarding public at large do not know about, because by revealing it, then you’re giving people more clues about how to bypass these security measures, potentially. Then again, as I say that, we’re also reminded Hogwarts is a security nightmare, so maybe there’s not much else going on.

Ning Xi: True.

Laura: That’s very true. And credit where credit’s due, that was Eric.

Andrew: Oh, sorry.

Eric: Well, and we hear about this deterrent, but we have no examples of Muggles getting deterred, actually, or seeing the ruin. In fact, Jacob Kowalski at the end of the second Fantastic Beasts film walks straight up to Hogwarts, is grinning ear to ear; he can clearly see it. Maybe that man just loves his old ruins.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But then in the next movie is able to walk around in Hogwarts, so whether that’s Dumbledore’s doing or whether this charm is bunco and is actually not a thing at all… what does Jacob see?

Andrew: I could see a special pass being granted when they do want a Muggle to be allowed in. But that should have been addressed, because I feel like this is a big plot point that fans have known about for a really long time, and to just pull that out from under us is surprising. We were owed a bit of an explanation, I think.

Eric: Oh, that’s that whole movie summarized.

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I mean, let’s be real; that wasn’t the first time that the Fantastic Beasts franchise played fast and loose with canon.

Eric: The sequels.

Laura: My crackpot theory is that they left a loose end there in order to reveal ultimately that Jacob is actually somehow magical, in the event that they ever got greenlit for a fourth movie.

Eric:The Secrets of Kowalski.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: By falling in love with a witch or wizard…

Laura: Right.

Andrew: … I don’t know.

Eric: You retroactively backwards through time can see Hogwarts, a school that Queenie didn’t even go to.

Andrew: No, you become a wizard yourself, is where I was going with that.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Ning Xi: Ohh.

Andrew: You become a half-blood… a half-love-blood… a love-blood… [laughs]

Laura: Right, you make out with a witch and you become magical. [laughs]

Andrew: You’re swapping spit.

Eric: It was the magic of their eventual descendant Anthony Goldstein…

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: … that allowed the great-great-great-grandfather of him, Jacob Kowalski, to see Hogwarts.

[Laura and Ning Xi laugh]

Andrew: Being a wizard, becoming a wizard, is highly contagious. That’s how there’s so many witches and wizards out there. We also learn, just like Hogwarts, that Durmstrang and Beauxbatons are concealed so nobody can steal their secrets. It seems weird to me that even fellow wizards from outside schools don’t know where these schools are. And let’s also remember that students from these schools are coming to Hogwarts, and they’re probably figuring out where Hogwarts is, or they’re going to get some clues, at least, when they look around the castle grounds.

Eric: Ohh, security breach!

[Ning Xi laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it’s so unfair. And also, that was a quote; they’re hidden so “nobody can steal their secrets.” What secrets are we even talking about here?

Eric: The secrets of Dumbledore, Andrew.

Andrew: [laughs] The secrets of Durmstrang.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The secrets of Durmstrang-dore. I feel like it doesn’t make any sense in the way Hermione is like, “Well, of course they’re concealed, aren’t they? No one knows where they are.” This is all Hermione, so maybe we take it with a grain of salt. Maybe she’s on her soapbox and just making stuff up. But to your point, somebody has to know where it is, and certainly the kids going… or Harry and Ron, remember, they had to find their way to the school in their second year, and they had to be able to find it to do that.

Andrew and Ning Xi: Yeah.

Ning Xi: I find it very hard to believe that the general country or city that the school is set in is unknown, because no parent is going to send their 11-year-old just wherever.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s true.

Ning Xi: They’ve got to know at least… I can see the exact location being a secret, but the general area should probably be known. Everybody sort of accepted that Hogwarts is somewhere in the Scottish Highlands or something like that, so that would make more sense to me, I feel.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: I feel like the parents deserve to know, to your point, but this also gets me thinking. This castle is in one place for hundreds of years. Nobody leaks this info ever, where the school is? Even the students who went? And actually, come to think of it, a lot of the parents would probably know where it is because they went to that school themselves.

Eric: Oh, okay, okay.

Andrew: So that’s how they would know, but how about Hermione’s parents? Hermione’s parents can’t ask around and find out?

Eric: Well, they can’t see the school, so even if they go, they’re not going to be able to… [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, they seem like a couple who would get an exception, similar to Jacob, where if you do have a witch or wizard there and you’re a Muggle, you deserve to visit.

Eric: The entire four or six months that Hermione was Petrified in year two, her parents didn’t visit because they couldn’t see Hogwarts?

Andrew: I guess that’s proof that they’re not allowed to visit.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Can you imagine if they got there and saw that and were like, “This is where you live, honey?”

[Everyone laughs]

Ning Xi: “You live like this?”

Eric: Amazing.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, “With all these security nightmares, no wonder we’re normally not allowed to visit.” That’s probably why they’re banned, too, because the school is a mess all the time.

Ning Xi: Yeah. Maybe they sign an NDA.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Ning Xi: Hermione has everybody sign, and if you leak the exact location, you get smited. Just, boom.

Laura: That’s so funny.

Andrew:Avada Kedavra!

Laura: I was going to say, automatic AK like a lightning bolt.

[Ning Xi laughs]

Andrew: That’s how they learn the spell.

Eric: An Unbreakable Vow. Well, Camille also points out in our Discord, “Wouldn’t everyone know where Hogwarts is because it’s walking distance of Hogsmeade?”

Andrew and Ning Xi: Oh.

Eric: And that’s actually another great point, because Hogsmeade is not a hidden village. It’s a very, very famous wizarding dwelling, and major city for the wizards. So yeah, you can pretty much easily figure out where Hogwarts is.

Laura: Yeah, it’s the only all-wizarding village in all of England, or all of the UK, right?

Eric: Yeah, and eventually, you’d know, too, because depending on where your kid is born or where you’re living, you get an invite to a certain school. And so eventually, over many decades, people would begin to pinpoint, “Oh, Durmstrang reached out to me, this must be within the scope or the range of where they pull from.” So it just doesn’t hold up very much.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: A common closing point here on MuggleCast: It doesn’t hold up very much.

[Ning Xi laughs]

Eric: Well, although, I like what Hermione does to deduce that it must be up north and it’s because their uniform contains furs. That’s smart. That’s classic deduction, but it’s really good.

Laura: Yeah. And it makes me think of real life prominent secret places, like Camp David here in the United States where the President will go for… I mean, it can sometimes be long weekend trips, but it’s also to entertain dignitaries from other countries. And it’s not technically public knowledge where exactly Camp David is located, but it’s also not hard to figure out the general area where it is, especially if you live in that part of the country. So I’m sure, very similar to Camp David, if you got too close to Durmstrang or Beauxbatons and they genuinely don’t want you there, there have to be security or alert systems in place to prevent you from ultimately finding it. So I don’t know if that means they’re modifying people’s memories if they get too close. I don’t think that’s what the Secret Service does with Camp David.

[Laura and Ning Xi laugh]

Eric: No, that’s the Men in Black.

Laura: Right. Flashy thing.

Eric: The other thing worth noting is that the reason for some of the secrecy presumably is also to have a safe space for wizards to get spells wrong. So you’re learning these spells; it’s a giant mess all the time… not to mention just the Quidditch aspect of it. I had to think really hard not to say Quizzitch. But yeah, so there’s a good reason why they’re secluded, but that doesn’t mean that their location shouldn’t be known.

Ning Xi: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: Yes. Okay, so Draco comes into the trio’s compartment on the Hogwarts Express and kicks into bully mode. He’s making fun of Ron’s dress robes and hinting at what’s happening at Hogwarts this year, and the trio is a little humiliated that they don’t know what Draco is talking about. Of course, Draco takes advantage of them not knowing about the thing that is happening, so he starts making fun of them. He says that his dad told him what was happening a long while ago, and he can’t believe Ron doesn’t know what’s happening despite Arthur and Percy working at the Ministry. Draco surmises in front of Ron that Arthur isn’t high up enough at the Ministry to know what’s happening…

Eric: Ugh.

Andrew: … and this comment enrages Ron to the point where he slams the train compartment door shut and shatters the glass.

Eric: Girl.

Andrew: Oculus Reparo. [laughs]

Eric: Honestly, the trolley witch would be on you so fast if this were her job.

[Ning Xi laughs]

Andrew: Oh, those nails would…

Eric: Like, “Defacing school property! Raaahhh!”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Nobody comes out and looks…? I mean, I know it’s a quick Reparo job, but I was just like, “Man, Ron, you really asked for it. You’re going to get the claws now.”

Andrew: Yeah. Well, it made me wonder, should Arthur have told them what was happening at school? I think he could have foreseen this type of situation arising. He knows Draco is a bully, he knows Draco is probably going to come in contact with Ron ahead of the news, and maybe it would have been nice for Arthur to tell him. Does it really matter if he knows ahead of time? I don’t think it does. It seems like a little oversight to me by Arthur.

Laura: I feel like he’s trying to keep the mystery alive for the kids. It reminds me of why parents don’t tell their kids that Santa isn’t real, right?

Eric: Wait, what?

[Everyone laughs]

Ning Xi: What’s Santa?

Laura: But I mean… and I think you could find a number of examples, right, of things that parents like to keep alive for their kids, because it’s mystery. It’s imagination. And this is allowing Hogwarts students to theorize and speculate about what’s coming, so it’s fun, you know? They’re trying to keep the fun alive.

Eric: Yeah, and I think, too, in putting this in context with the previous books, they’ve had really… every student has had two horrific years at Hogwarts lately. So last year, the Dementors are everywhere. No one can get… there’s this escaped murderer; everyone is closely watched. The year before is the Chamber of Secrets being opened, and everyone is in fear and danger and everything. So the adults really seem to think that this year’s Triwizard Cup and the announcement and all the hubbub is going to make up for any recent trauma and recent horrors, and so that’s why it’s a secret, is because they really want to shock the kids into like, “Ah!” and “My God, this is going to be amazing!” and “Wow, I’m so excited.” So that’s why it’s a secret. So I think, keeping that in mind, even though… I mean, I know we’re going to talk about the Triwizard Tournament, whether the tasks are actually that exciting for anyone else to watch or not.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s designed to be this huge thing that makes up for the last couple of years of their lives, and so that’s, I think, why it’s a hidden thing. And also, Arthur can’t predict that Draco is going to be this douche, like, “I’m so important. My dad is important. Your dad mustn’t be important.” No one can predict that. That’s just bad behavior.

Ning Xi: Yeah, I feel like this part is more on Draco than whether the adults should have told them, because there’s always that one guy who’s like, “Oh, I know more than you.” Yeah, whatever.

Andrew: Draco does love being that person, doesn’t he?

Ning Xi: He does.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: All right. Well, let’s look at some Odds & Ends. Eric, you want to kick things off?

Eric: Yeah, we mentioned the dustbins and Mad-Eye Moody, but his paranoia reminds me actually of Horace Slughorn, who just two books from now, at the start of it, is on the run and actively trying to avoid Death Eaters as well, and so it’s a nice little parallel between the real Mad-Eye Moody and Slughorn. Both have made some enemies in Voldemort’s inner circle and are just trying to stay ahead of the game, so I definitely thought of Slughorn when I was hearing about Moody and his dustbins.

Andrew: Laura, we mentioned this at the top of this discussion.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Last week, you worked the word “pistons” into the show. You said we were “firing on all pistons,” and I was like, “Who says that anymore?” And then I’m reading this chapter and the word pistons comes up! Did you know it was coming?

Laura: Yeah, definitely.

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Good answer.

Andrew: The line was, “The pistons hissed loudly and the train began to move.” I was just impressed by the coincidence.

Eric: Why wasn’t an alternate title of Goblet of FireHarry Potter and the Pistons Firing”? I don’t understand.

Laura: “And the Fire of Pistons.”

Andrew: What’d you notice, Laura?

Laura: Yeah, so just noticed a real quick mention of the horseless carriages.

Ning Xi: Not going to remain horseless for long.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Watch this space.

Ning Xi: Yeah, this time next year.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to the concept of the dustbin security system. It sounds cheaper than my $99 a year Amazon Ring security subscription, so maybe I’ll look into setting this up outside my home. Thanks, Mad-Eye.

[Eric and Ning Xi laugh]

Eric: I can just imagine visiting you and it’s not deactivated and all of a sudden… [laughs]

Andrew: Some call him mad? I call him fiscally savvy.

Eric: Frugal Moody, yes.

Andrew: Frugal Moody.

Eric: Here we go…

Andrew: Money-saving Moody. Sorry.

Eric: I like that. Good hyphenated; you worked the hyphen in there. I’m going to give my MVP to Draco only because he knows exactly what to say to get to Ron. How does he do it, I ask? Oh, yeah, that’s right, because he has no moral fiber at all.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Mad-Eye. He’s the second character in a row that we have in this book whose introduction jumps off the page without him even being present.

Eric: Oooh.

Ning Xi: I’m giving mine to Barty Crouch, Jr…

Eric: Yes!

Ning Xi: … for basically pulling this off. It’s a good plan for real; it’s a sound plan, so credit where credit’s due.

Eric: Heck yeah.

Andrew: Okay, next week we will discuss Chapter 12, “The Triwizard Tournament.” The thing will finally be revealed; I can’t take this anticipation anymore! If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo that’s recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Coming up on bonus MuggleCast, available exclusively on Patreon and through Apple Podcasts, we’ll discuss recent news about Hogwarts Legacy. Like I said, it’s the top-selling game of 2023; Warner Bros. just announced that, and they used the opportunity to also tease what might be in store for Harry Potter fans in the year or years ahead, so we’ll talk about that. Listener support is the reason why we are a weekly podcast even 19 years later. Visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast or tap into the show on Apple Podcasts and subscribe to receive ad-free and early access to episodes plus bonus MuggleCast. If you pledge on Patreon, you’ll also receive access to our livestreams, our planning docs, our Facebook group, our Discord, and so much more, like a new physical gift every year. So thank you, everybody who supports us, including you, Ning Xi!

Ning Xi: Yay!


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What spell does Hermione start learning on the Hogwarts Express? And that means in Harry’s fourth year. The correct answer was the Summoning Charm, or Accio, which she’s going to teach him later in the year, so that’s exciting. Little looking ahead bit. Correct answers were submitted, and we have a mix of regular names and fun names, so here we go: Micah’s new French accent…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … Mrs. Figg-smelling tent; Dumbledore’s beard crumb; Pig’s soggy owl pellet; Dobby and Winky’s child; It’s not just DADA, many teachers in the Muggle world now only last a year; Micah’s fiancée… oh, okay.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Quite the dark episode.

Eric: Learning French and getting engaged; hope he texts us about that. Insert smart pun here; Weaselby; Grindylow Hunter; Justice for Winky; BuffDaddy; Katie; Elizabeth K.; and “Nate, I challenge you to a duel. Sincerely, Luke.” Oh God.

Andrew: Oh, this is getting…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: This is out of hand. You know what somebody else submitted? Okay, somebody else’s name here is “To all of the kids word dueling in last week’s Quizzitch round, I will be the Hagrid and say break it up, gents, break it up.”

Laura: Aww.

Eric: So let’s deescalate here. Also, if I can, I’ll tell you what. These names are really fun, but they take up a lot of time to read, and I challenge our listeners to submit – say for the month, the rest of the month – your regular old given names to Quizzitch. I’m asking you with peace and love…

Andrew: [laughs] I was waiting for that.

[Ning Xi laughs]

Eric: … to just submit your regular names to Quizzitch, or they won’t be read. [imitating Ringo Starr] They won’t be read on Quizzitch.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Wow.

Eric: From this moment forward with peace and love, please. So we’ve had enough of the names for now. The nicknames.

Laura: Have we?

Ning Xi: Wow, so I got in under the wire because mine was read today.

Eric and Laura: Hey!

[Ning Xi laughs]

Eric: Ning Xi, what was yours? What was yours?

Ning Xi: “Insert smart pun here,” because I couldn’t think of a good one. [laughs]

Eric: Aww, you know what? That was neat.

Laura: That was a good one.

Andrew: Eric did say just for the rest of January, right? So a limited time challenge.

Eric: I guess I should have polled you guys first. But yes, let’s just say for the rest of the month, regular names only.

Laura: [laughs] I’m really curious to see if people adhere.

Eric: Well, if they don’t, it’s going to be a shorter Quizzitch segment of all time.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Here’s next week’s Quizzitch question: This one’s a bit interesting. Name two of the three items that Filch has added to the list of forbidden objects at the start of Harry’s year four. There are three items that Filch has added; we’re asking you to name two of them. Could be anybody’s game. Submit your Quizzitch answer with a regular name to us on the Quizzitch form, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Ning Xi, thanks for joining us today. It was great having you, and again, we really appreciate your support.

Ning Xi: Thanks for having me!

Andrew: You’re so welcome. Thanks for taking off work today for us. Enjoy the rest of your day off.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think now it’s not even 11:00 a.m. there, so you’ve got the full day ahead of you. Did you call out sick? Were you like, [coughs] “Too many dustbins last night”?

Ning Xi: I just took like my annual leave. We get 14 a year, so it’s fine.

Andrew: You get a lot more vacation time over there than we do in America.

Ning Xi: Yeah, I mean, I’m already on the low side.

Andrew: Ugh, jealous. 14 days sounds like the extreme high side here in America.

[Andrew and Ning Xi laugh]

Ning Xi: And that’s not inclusive of sick time. That’s a separate 14 days; by law you have to give.

Eric: All right, I’m getting depressed.

Laura: And holidays days, too, right?

Ning Xi: Yeah, public holidays, we get that.

Laura: We’re all coming to Singapore!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We’re happy for you. We’re happy for you. And thank you, again, for your support. We really couldn’t do this show without support from listeners like you, and you’ve been such a longtime listener. And you fit right in on today’s episode. Thank you for sitting in the Micah seat. I’m sure if he were here, he would definitely give you a live “Choo-choo.”

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

[Ning Xi laughs]

Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and to contact us. That does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Ning Xi: And I’m Ning Xi.

Andrew: Bye, everyone!

Laura and Ning Xi: Bye.

Transcript #640

 

MuggleCast 640 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #640, Rita Skeeter: A Voice For Potter Podcasters (GOF Chapter 10, Mayhem at the Ministry)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Happy New Year to all of our listeners. It’s our first episode of 2024. We’re very excited to be back after a couple of weeks off, and even more exciting, we are entering our 19th year of Harry Potter podcasting.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: 19 years later. So our birthday will be in August; we’ll have to do something special since, of course, the epilogue is set 19 years after the events of Deathly Hallows.

Micah: Choo-choo.

Andrew: Can’t believe it. [laughs]

Laura: I know, I know, it’s wild. And none of us have children yet, at least that I know of…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … so I think the one thing that we can do to really solidify our legacy is when the first MuggleCast baby comes along, should that ever happen, it cannot have a cringy terrible name like the ones that we saw in the epilogue. Let’s all agree to that right now.

Eric: I was going to say, yeah, come July or August, we should all don really, really aged makeup. Prosthetic makeup.

Laura: [laughs] Oh, no.

Andrew: Ooh, yeah.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: And go meet in London and just look really, really old. No, we’ve aged far better than those characters did.

Andrew: Yes. A lot of people might not know, they originally shot the epilogue scene with this really bad makeup. Draco looks awful; it looks like he was 100. He didn’t look like he only aged 19 years.

Micah: He looked worse than Nicolas Flamel.

Andrew: [laughs] They shot the scene, too, at the real King’s Cross, which was very nice, but then everybody looked so bad – I think Ron looked like he was balding – that they decided to reshoot it. They did a better job with aging the characters up. Unfortunately, though, they did not film again at King’s Cross, so we didn’t get that authenticity. But yes, I think we should all look as bad for our big 19th birthday episode this August.

Laura: No, I think that we should provide a lesson to the fandom that hey, actually, 19 years later – because we’re all about the same age that the trio would have been in the epilogue – you’ll look a lot better than what was depicted in the movie. [laughs]

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: Give everybody hope. Happy 19 years, sorta kinda. And we’re going to be watching our words carefully this week, lest Rita Skeeter twist any statements from this week’s episode to create some hot goss for the Daily Prophet. Today we’re discussing Chapter 10 of Goblet of Fire, “Mayhem at the Ministry.” But first, a couple of announcements. We touched on this I think at the end of last year: Bonus MuggleCast installments are coming to our paid Apple Podcasts subscription starting later this month. For just $4.99 a month, you can sign up for MuggleCast Gold! That’s a new announcement. We’re calling this MuggleCast Gold.

Eric: Andrew, are we sure we want to do this, given the success of other Harry Potter-related things branded gold?

Andrew: You’re referring to the hit subscription service Wizarding World Gold? [laughs]

Eric: Yes. Are we sure that this is an okay name?

Andrew: We’re going to do the gold thing the right way. And ours is like, half the price; I think theirs was $90 or $99, $79…

Eric: Oh, goodness.

Andrew: Ours is definitely cheaper than that. $4.99 a month, you can sign up for MuggleCast Gold and you’ll receive ad-free early access to our main show plus two new bonus MuggleCast installments every month, in which we discuss the latest wizarding world news, our favorite headcanons, we do these introspective looks back at book releases and original titles that JKR was considering, and so much more. We do a lot of really fun one-off discussions. These have been previously available on Patreon, but now they’re also available on Apple Podcasts.

Eric: Yeah, I was going to shout out, too, that some of those bonuses made their way to the main feed as well, as a good sample over the holiday break.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And I know I’ve said it before on the show, Andrew, but I really do think that this is a good deal.

Andrew: Even at $4.99!

Micah: At $4.99, and here’s why: You’re getting the show, right? And then you’re getting two additional pieces of content. It’s ad-free. What more could you…? You’re paying less than a dollar…

Andrew: You can get it early, too, and you do.

Micah: There you go. And if you think about it, everybody does this probably at least once a week, right? What do you do? You go to Starbucks, or you go to your favorite coffee spot in the morning. How much does your coffee cost?

Eric: More than $5!

Micah: More than $5. So you can get ad-free early MuggleCast, four episodes a month, two bonus MuggleCasts a month.

Andrew: It’s a good deal.

Micah: It’s a very good deal.

Laura: And brew your coffee at home.

Eric: Also, if you walk into the gift shop of Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, wherever it may be playing, and you tell them that you’re a member of MuggleCast Gold, I bet they’ll think you’re pretty cool.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Maybe they’ll give you a pin.

Andrew: We’ll give them a little badge. [laughs]

Eric: They might have a pin leftover. Ask them if they have any pins for being a Gold member; don’t specify which Gold, and maybe you’ll be in luck.

Andrew: Oh yeah, I missed that. That was a good idea that they had. Well, anyway, we really appreciate everybody’s support. We couldn’t do the show without you, so that’s why we have set up the subscription programs, because we need your support in order to run this show. Speaking of supporting the show, don’t forget that the MuggleCast overstock store is open. And we had it closed over the holidays; it’s open again. This is where you can buy MuggleCast merch and help support the show, and we have an update: It’s very cold in the northern hemisphere, so MuggleCast is helping you out this winter with the MuggleCast Beanie and Socks Comfy Cozy Combo Pack. So purchase this new combo set for $25; it’s cheaper than buying the socks and beanie separate, and you’ll be warm on both ends of your Muggle body for winter. I was on a cross country road trip over our break; I went through the Rocky Mountains. That beanie was comfortable and kept my head warm as we were cruising at high altitudes and spending a little time outside doing some stretching and all that. So check out the Comfy Cozy Pack, $25. Normally these two items separately would be $35; if you buy the combo pack, they are together for $25, just in time for winter. By the way, Sam, one of our listeners, said of the socks: “These are a unique gift for the MuggleCast fangirly. Well-made socks with bright and bold colors.” Ellie said the socks were “So cute, comfy, and well-made.” And then on the album art, which is also in our overstock store, JenPen said, “Beautiful album art and happy for the autographs.” So we’ve been getting some reviews of the products, which has been fun to read.

Eric: I wonder if she got Dobby or Hedwig as well as the four of us.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Some album art comes with additional signatures, yeah, from characters.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, what do they call this? Collector’s, right? They’re even more special than the ones just signed by the four of us.

Andrew: You’ll find a link in the show notes to the overstock store. It’s also MuggleMillennial.etsy.com, if you just want to type in the URL directly.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So let’s get to Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 10, “Mayhem at the Ministry.” And for the first time this year, let’s do our Seven-Word Summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Arthur…

Eric: … laments…

Micah: … over…

Laura: … a…

Andrew: … problematic…

Eric: … news…

Micah: … cycle.

Laura: Hey!

Andrew: That was perfect.

Laura: Wonderful job, y’all.

Andrew: No notes.

Laura: We’re firing on all pistons at the start of 2024. I just want that on the record.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: All pistons? What is this, 1940?

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Laura: Yes, I’m going to start speaking with a transatlantic accent.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I can’t actually do that, so I won’t.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: So getting right into this chapter, it picks up where we left off. Curiously, I noted at the start of this chapter, everyone seems like they stayed overnight. I think I made the assumption at the end of the last chapter that maybe Arthur was trying to keep the kids close and not travel at night, but perhaps some other people left. No, apparently nobody left. When they are leaving the following morning, it is a madhouse trying to get a Portkey. And I thought that it was so odd that nobody seemed to nope out the night before, like… terror attack by wizard Klansmen, and everybody was like, “Eh, it’s fine. We’ll just sleep here and then we’ll go home tomorrow.” What?

Eric: Why should they let that ruin their good time?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: It would seem in situations such as this that it would have made sense to evacuate following the attack. The space is unsafe, as they like to say. It’s compromised.

Laura: Yeah. And any large event should have evacuation plans; I feel like that’s pretty standard protocol. It seems like the Ministry was pretty prepared for tons of logistics around the travel and the arrival of wizards from all over the world. It does seem shocking that there wasn’t any kind of emergency contingency.

Andrew: Maybe they didn’t want to let anybody out because they didn’t want the culprit or culprits to escape. That’s standard procedure, too, in certain situations.

Laura: Yeah, but everybody can Apparate, is the thing. [laughs]

Eric: Well, I think anyone who would likely be the culprit would potentially be capable of Apparating. It is weird that even some of the Weasleys who can Apparate didn’t at least go home to tell Molly everything was fine, because that becomes an issue in the morning as well. They could have, I guess, maybe planned that a little bit better, and yeah, why did they stay? Why do they consent to submit to being in this long line for a Portkey?

Laura: For the plot.

Micah: Andrew, I think this sounds like a security nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Eric: Heck yeah.

Andrew: Well, it’s something for them to work on for the next Quidditch World Cup.

Eric: [laughs] That’s for sure.

Laura: Yeah, indeed. Well, on their way to wait in the very lengthy Portkey line, Arthur and the family actually pass Mr. Roberts, the Muggle that we chatted about last chapter, who had himself and his entire family completely traumatized by the Death Eaters. And Mr. Roberts has yet again had his memory wiped to spare him the recollections of what happened to his family the prior night. It’s August, which is notable here. It’s August, but he wishes everyone a Happy Christmas as they walk by. And it’s noted here, Arthur says, “Sometimes when a person’s memory is modified, they’ll be a bit disoriented for a while.” And I was reading this and I was like, “Ya think?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: You think the man’s going to be disoriented? Y’all have been wiping his memory, you said two chapters ago, about ten times a day for two weeks, because that’s how long the campsite has been open. You’ve been wiping this guy’s memory… you’ve wiped it 140 times.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: There is no way this man does not have neurological damage. None whatsoever.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s really sad.

Laura: So I wanted to ask you all, actually, in this case – and I think it can be kind of a controversial question – was wiping the Roberts family’s memories the right thing to do here with this?

Andrew: Like this particular time or just…? [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, this particular time.

Andrew: Well, what’s one more time?

[Micah laughs]

Laura: To remove the trauma of what happened to them, was it the right thing to do?

Eric: I don’t think they had much of a choice. In order to explain what happened to them, in order to make sense of it to them, they would have to break the Statute of Secrecy, for starters, to explain how they were lifted up basically telekinetically, but magically, and tortured. So they don’t have much of a choice.

Micah: What really surprises me, though, is the fact that Mr. Roberts is still there “working.”

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: You would think that his entire family, himself included, would have been taken to St. Mungo’s for evaluation, because presumably, they’re still going to have to continue to wipe his memory as he’s allowing all of these people to exit his campsite. It’s not like it stops at 140; there’s probably a few other memory wipes that are going to have to go on. But I think for the big trauma, to Eric’s point, I don’t think you can not wipe his memory, right? The problem is they’ve wiped it so many other times before on so many inconsequential things, so it just feels like they’re taking as much advantage of him as the Death Eaters did, in a way.

Eric: Wow. Wow.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: 100%. And the reason I wanted to bring this up… I think we alluded to it a little bit on our last episode, but trauma doesn’t just live in the mind, it lives in the body, right? So even if something traumatic happens and you just don’t remember it for whatever reason, your body can very well remember it. So who knows what the Roberts family is going to go through over the course of the next several years as a result of this trauma? Erasing their memories doesn’t actually erase what happened to them, and it feels like a huge disservice that at the very least, there doesn’t seem to have been any attempt to do welfare checks on the Robertses. Like, we never hear about them again and we never hear about any sort of Ministry efforts to do something like this. What about the Pensieve? Eric, you had an interesting point here.

Eric: Yeah, it’s interesting because we’re right in the midway point of the series, and there will be these points inevitably that we bring up of like, “Oh, something from the later books could have helped here.” Well, this is something that something from this book might have been able to help with. Regarding the Pensieve, the way that I believe Dumbledore describes it is that he uses the Pensieve to put memories, truly put memories, out of his mind, and it helps him think better because a man like Dumbledore has got a ton of things to focus on and be rattling around in his brain all the time.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “I’m a busy man.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Presumably, then, when you put a memory in a Pensieve, you actually don’t have that anymore. And would there have been – potentially, is my question – the possibility to store the memory of last night for the Roberts family in…? Basically just to extract it. You don’t even need a Pensieve; just extract that memory and say, “Goodbye.”

Micah: Let it float away.

Andrew: [laughs] Blow it away like a dandelion. [makes air blowing sound]

Eric: Yeah. Is that something that a wizard could do to a Muggle? Or is it a little bit more complicated? Because then, if that’s possible, why are they even bothering with memory replacement, which is essentially… what a Memory Charm does is say “Nothing bad happened,” instead of “Something bad happened.” Why aren’t they using a Pensieve? Or using actual memory extraction stuff?

Andrew: Well, first of all, it’s presumably less abusive to use a Pensieve over and over again, because we see wizards do it. And as far as I can remember, there’s no downsides. There’s no impact.

Micah: Really? Dumbledore looks constipated when he’s done it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Or at least that was the Michael Gambon expression.

Eric: Side effects may include constipation, forgetfulness…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: See if Dulcolax is right for you.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I do wonder if there’s some sort of elitism going on here amongst Ministry officials in determining when’s the right time to use a Pensieve for Muggles versus just Obliviate-ing their memories, because the Pensieve being able to extract a memory and still hold on to it… you can blow it away like a dandelion, but you can also just put it in the Pensieve. To be able to do that seems very special, and I can almost imagine officials at the Ministry being like, “You know what, we don’t use that with Muggles because we’re going to be storing those memories. This is a sacred privilege that we have, and we’re not just going to let anybody have it.” So that’s the only excuse I could come up with.

Eric: Yeah, they also might, though… the magic of the Pensieve as we’re introduced to later in this very book is that you can see those memories from different angles, and so they could actually use the Roberts family’s memories as additional evidence, essentially. They could take a look at who’s parading them through the streets; they could see if they could identify some of the Death Eaters that came in the closest contact with the Roberts family. It actually seems like a huge potential in trying to get the memories from the Muggles, so…

Micah: Solving the crime.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, basically get a detective on it.

Micah: Yeah. And Laura, I really like the fact that you brought up the point from the last episode about trauma not being what happens to you, but what happens inside of you as a result of what happens to you. And Meg pointed this out, actually, Eric: Yes, I was quoting Dr. Gabor Maté. I’m not sure if folks are familiar with him, but if they aren’t, they should be because he’s probably one of the best thinkers of our time for sure, and an expert on trauma. But in the case of the Robertses, yeah, I mean, because if trauma was what just happened to them, then they wouldn’t be able to go back and heal it, because it would just be the event and the event happened and there’s nothing you can do about the event, but presumably, they can heal what’s happening inside of them. But if they can’t recall why they’re feeling that way, I think that’s a major, major issue, and let’s face it, I know I mentioned this before, but the Ministry is sort of to blame here to start with for putting Mr. Roberts in this situation, putting his family in this situation to begin with. They kind of served him up on a platter to the Death Eaters.

Laura: Yeah, and I think that goes to, Andrew, the point you just made a couple minutes ago about there being this level of elitism and superiority, because we see throughout this series, even some of the characters who are the most well-intentioned good people, characters we genuinely like, kind of look down their nose at Muggles and see them as being less than, and this is how it manifests, right? This is the real world impact of that attitude.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: You nailed that on the head there, Laura. Muggles are not seen as people, and so they aren’t given the kind of treatment… to Andrew’s point as well, elitism, I think that’s exactly it, too, as well. It’s like, “A Muggle, we’ll just give them a Memory Charm two dozen times,” instead of actually using something a little bit more specialized.

Laura: Well, Eric, you mentioned that the Pensieve is an answer that exists in this book that could have been helpful here, but for something that comes along later in the series that could have been helpful here, for Molly specifically, is Patronus messaging. We find out as soon as Mr. Weasley, Harry, Ron, Hermione, et al. get home that Mrs. Weasley has been frantically worrying. She can’t find any evidence of them being alive or dead; she’s freaking out. And as I was reading this, I was like, “Couldn’t they send messages through their Patronuses?” And then I was like, “Oh, wait, that’s later.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: That’s one of those inventions that comes later in the series.

Eric: I think it’s the very next book, so it’s within the next three years of the writing process that we learn about it. And I’m pretty sure the author gave an interview within the next year of this book coming out saying that certain members had something that was the equivalent of the wizarding world’s instant messaging, but it was not yet invented here, clearly, because Arthur surely would have used it to set Molly at ease. And the other aspect of this is it would have been a really cool ring composition moment, because the final book has obviously Kingsley Shacklebolt’s Patronus message showing up at the Burrow, and so we would have at least heard about Arthur sending one in Books 4 and 7.

Andrew: I’m glad we’re bringing this up, though, because it is an interesting look behind the scenes of the development of the series overall. Clearly, there was a ton developed even within Book 1; the world-building was fantastic. But still, there were some things that weren’t invented until later chapters or books, so I think this is a really fun thing for us to point out from time to time.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, in this chapter, “Mayhem at the Ministry,” Molly has been terrified all night and for most of the morning. They’re slowly traipsing back to the Burrow, and as soon as she sees them, as soon as she knows evidence that they’re okay, she freaks out and goes out to meet them.

Andrew: I wonder when she did find out exactly that something went awry…

Micah: I was thinking that too.

Andrew: … because she is clutching – I was just looking it up – the Daily Prophet when they come in. So I would presume maybe the following morning, she saw it through the paper and then got very concerned, because I was also wondering like, maybe Molly should have went to investigate herself.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Lazy.

Andrew: Just like, at a distance.

Laura: No, that’s so interesting. I think the way I read it, I assumed that she had heard about it the evening before and was freaking out all night, but maybe not. Somebody fact check.

Eric: We know that she has a wireless; she has a radio that she listens to the programs on, at least Celestina Warbeck’s Witching Hour.

Andrew: [laughs] Celestina comes on: “Attack at the Quidditch World Cup!”

Eric: No, that’s what I’m saying. How about “We interrupt this broadcast to let you know that something horrible has happened to potentially your loved ones”? That would absolutely make the cut.

Laura: Yeah. And actually, I want to call out HufflepuffsBadger in our Discord, pointing out that Molly can check the clock. We are reminded of the Weasleys’ very special clock in this chapter; that’s actually one of our odds and ends that we’re going to chat about a little bit later. But yeah, presumably, all of her children and her husband’s hands would have been pointing to “Mortal peril.”

Andrew: [laughs] Sleep well.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: For some period, yeah, last night.

Andrew: You know, it’s actually even worse to hear about it through the clock, because then she’s wondering, “Why are they in mortal peril?”

Laura: “What’s happening?” [laughs]

Micah: And the question would be, when it first clicks over to “Mortal peril,” is there an alarm of some sort that goes off where she would be notified? Because it’s not like you’re going to work or Hogwarts or something like that; it’s pretty serious stuff.

Eric: It makes the sound effect of our foreshadow alert; both are equally pressing sounds.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I don’t know if I would want this clock. It’s almost like having access to too many people in the Find My app on iPhone.

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: You start wondering why they’re in certain places if you get bored and start looking at people. [laughs]

Micah: It’s the early version of BeReal.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s true.

Laura: Yeah, oh my God. And then Molly, starting at Book 5, she sends Patronus instant messages to be like, “Oh, I see that you’re in mortal peril.” [laughs] “What’s going on?”

Andrew: “What’s going on? I’m 12 drinks in at the Hog’s Head, Mom. I’m sorry.”

Laura: [laughs] That could be mortal peril.

Micah: And I just want to bring up, Eric, what you said earlier, which I think is worth reemphasizing, that not one Weasley went home. I mean, they have a pretty big contingent at the Quidditch World Cup, and Percy, Bill, and Charlie can all Apparate by themselves.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Presumably, Bill and Charlie can Apparate long distances without any issue. Percy might be a little bit too early on in his training…

Eric: Sure.

Micah: … but Bill or Charlie could have gone home and made sure Molly was not freaking out.

Eric: That “We’re okay,” yeah, yeah.

Micah: So shame on them. Shame on them. Bad kids.

Laura: Well, we’re going to chat about Rita Skeeter and journalism here in a moment, but just to kind of tie a bow on this aftermath theme of this chapter, towards the end of the chapter Harry finally does tell Ron and Hermione about his scar hurting and his dream from Chapter 1. So how did we take Ron’s and Hermione’s reactions to that? It seems like they reacted just in the way that Harry predicted they would.

Eric: I liked reading that part of it where Harry is… because at the beginning of the book, it opens up and says, “Well, what would Ron say? What would Hermione say?”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Harry replays the whole thing, and to see that actually play out is satisfying. It’s like, “Oh, Harry knows his friends.” But what I liked in particular was Jim Dale’s reading of Harry asking Molly, “Have we gotten anything from Hedwig?” and she says “Hedwig? No.” And then a moment later, Harry is like, “Uh, Ron, okay if we put something in your room?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And Ron is like, “Uh, yeah, yeah, let’s go up there. Hermione, do you want to come too?” It’s just so not subtle that something has occurred that they need to discuss. But it’s funny.

Laura: Yeah, I think Molly is probably too distraught and exhausted at this point to really pick up on it. I think normally she would. Think about how quick she is to get on the kids anytime they’re doing something that she thinks they shouldn’t be doing.

Micah: Hermione is situationally aware in this chapter. I mean, she is a lot throughout the series, but it really does come through in this chapter, because she’s also the one who makes Mrs. Weasley a strong cup of tea after they all arrive home, and I don’t know that necessarily that’s something a 14-year-old would look to do, right?

Andrew: No, no.

Micah: She’s being a bit of a caretaker. And that’s how she’s behaving at the end of this chapter, too, with Harry saying, “Oh, maybe we should all go to bed, because it’s been a long night.”

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: But I also understood Harry’s perspective here being like, “No, I do want to play Quidditch, actually,” because he just wants to blow off some steam. Sometimes you want to go for a run after a hard day, or you want to hit the gym and pump some iron after a hard day.

Micah: Bro.

Andrew: People use that as a way to get out any pent-up energy or anger and then they feel good after.

Eric: Oh, boys.

Andrew: Otherwise maybe in Harry’s situation he’d be staying up all night, worrying about the events of the past 24 hours. He needed to let out some steam.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, that’s fair.

Laura: That’s probably right.

Eric: Well, I just appreciate Hermione for her emotional intelligence, to Micah’s point, too, and it’s not a bad suggestion to sleep; it’s just that it’s not the right suggestion for Harry in that moment. And actually, discussing this with Meg, she had a really good point, which was that Ron suggesting Harry play Quidditch to ease his tension, which is what works, showcases how well Ron knows Harry, and may be a foreshadowing of Harry being about to lose Ron, unfortunately. Because when Harry only has Hermione to regulate his mood and as a friend later in this book when Harry and Ron have their falling-out, Harry finds it insufficient. They go to the library a lot more, and Harry begins to miss Ron. Ron knows him much better, I think, in moments of need than Hermione does, unfortunately. Ron knows best in this moment.

Laura: That’s a great point. So looking towards the other half of this discussion, we’re really going to focus on Rita Skeeter, unethical journalism, and Ministry blunders.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: So in the wake of terror at the Quidditch World Cup, this chapter introduces us to the wizarding world equivalent of a gossip journalist named Rita Skeeter. We are going to recap a little bit on what we know about Rita as people who’ve read the entire series, because I think it’ll really help us better analyze her contributions to the book as we’re reading through. So just a reminder that Rita’s ability to acquire information is aided very significantly by her being an unregistered Animagus. She is a beetle. This is perfect setup because we just read all about unregistered Animagi in Prisoner of Azkaban, so this one is kind of hiding in plain sight, literally, several times throughout this story. So I thought that we could keep a Rita count, a beetle count, throughout the book…

Andrew: Oh boy.

Laura: … of all the times that she’s spying or turning up as a beetle. I can only think of maybe one or two examples that I remember, so I’m pretty excited to come across the others because I know there are a few.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a fun idea. One thing that I noticed when reading this area, Arthur uses the word “ferreting” when talking about Rita, and I’m wondering if the use of that word by the author was almost meant as foreshadowing the Animagus revelation about Rita. The quote from Arthur is, “Rita Skeeter’s been ferreting around all week, looking for more Ministry mess-ups to report.” I just thought it was interesting because of what we later learn about her. I know ferreting is a sort of common word or phrase, but…

Laura: And it feels very British, too, to say, “Oh, she was ferreting around,” but I think you could do a double reading of it.

Andrew: I’m always looking out for foreshadowing in these books.

Micah: I kind of read it as his commentary on the type of reporter she is and the type of news that she likes to write about, and that’s why he used “ferreting” in this case.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, there’s a skill level attached to “ferret,” being able to sneak in and out and retrieve something, too, so it’s not not necessarily a compliment, in some ways.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, to your point, there is skill there. We maybe don’t like the skill, but if you’re being objective about it, it is there.

Eric: I mean, Rita is super cunning.

Laura: Yeah, well, given that we will find out towards the end of the book that she is this unregistered Animagus, she’s a beetle, I thought we could talk a little bit about what beetles represent socially, historically, and I wanted to start with certain biblical translations. So I’ll just preface this by saying that my biblical knowledge is somewhat limited; I was not raised in that context, so I’m interested to hear from people who maybe were, whether that’s y’all or whether that’s listeners. But certain translations have historically referred to the plagues in the Book of Exodus as plagues of a “grievous beetle” instead of locusts. I think that kind of interpretation or translation is to be expected of something as old as a religious text, but there are other significant cultural examples of what beetles represent. I think what’s really interesting is the role they play environmentally; they actually play a really important role preserving our planet by recycling filth, a.k.a. poop, to keep the Earth clean.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: We don’t have a real world poop mountain, but we do absolutely have real world beetles performing in the…

Micah: They’re dung beetles.

Andrew: Nor do we have Evanesco.

Eric and Laura: Yep.

Laura: They’re just out there rolling that poop around. [laughs]

Micah: Dung beetles: very hard to catch in Animal Crossing, by the way.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: Right, Andrew?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: They’re not easy.

Laura: Probably in real life, too, to be honest.

Andrew: But you’re also bringing this up about recycling filth, Laura, because of her being a gossip columnist.

Laura: Right, exactly. And listen, I’m going to get to this point here in a couple of minutes, but there can be some value to that, depending on timing and whatnot. Some cultures view beetles as being signs of good fortune and rebirth, right? Because again, they’re recycling the filth of the world and making it into something positive. Others view them as unclean, probably for the same reason – they’re just thinking about the poop differently – and even as symbols of evil or bad luck, so I think these are all things that we can connect to Rita in various ways. So I would like us to just keep this in the back of our mind as we read through this book and as we get to know her a little more. We’re also going to find out that she was a journalist during the first wizarding war, and we’ll see her later in the book in the Pensieve sequence where that reveal about Barty Crouch, Jr. being a Death Eater is made. She’s written a couple of biographies; she wrote one about former headmaster Armando Dippet, titled Armando Dippet: Master or Moron? And of course, as we all know, she later went on to write The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore.

Eric: She’s just doing the headmasters. She’s just biographing… she’s the very well-respected lead biographer for Hogwarts headmasters, apparently.

Andrew: She’s the Walter Isaacson of the wizarding world.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: He wrote about Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, many others.

Laura: Right.

Eric: There you go.

Laura: I mean, I’ll be fair, I did not read either of those books. Andrew, were they gossipy?

Andrew: No, no, no.

Laura: Or were they actual legitimate works of nonfiction literature?

Andrew: I did not read the Elon one. I do not want to read the Elon one.

Laura: Okay.

Andrew: I did read the Steve Jobs one. It was good. Actually, speaking about gossipy type of info, I’ve been hearing about the Elon one, is there are a bunch of inaccuracies in it, apparently, so maybe he is kind of like Rita. [laughs]

Laura: Well, what do we think of…? And this is obviously very high level, but when we’re talking about…

Andrew: There it is; Micah found it in his library. Sorry, the Steve Jobs.

Laura: [laughs] Micah’s library has everything in it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: “Micah’s Magic Library” is the series that I want to see coming to HBO Max.

Laura: Aw, please do.

Micah: Patreon.

Andrew: For our listeners, he just showed off the Steve Jobs one on his camera.

Laura: [laughs] But what do we think of this representation of Rita as a beetle? And these are obviously high level examples of what beetles can represent.

Andrew: Well, I love the examples that you brought up, the recycling filth one in particular, just regurgitating but also bending the truth, which we see Rita do quite a bit. But I also think about how I feel about beetles: They’re ugly, they’re hard-looking… not to say Rita is ugly. [laughs] But they just put you off. They’re hard-looking, mean-looking insects, and I think these are a couple other reasons why her Animagus may have been a beetle.

Laura: I don’t think they’re ugly.

Andrew: [laughs] And I don’t think Rita is ugly; she’s a good-looking lady, for the record.

Laura: I know you’re not. I know you’re not saying that. Also, just shout-out to Miranda Richardson, who was the perfect casting in this role.

Micah: She was awesome.

Eric: Amazing.

Andrew: She was, yeah.

Micah: I was looking in the Discord and LegalizeGillyweed mentioned that her personal headcanon is that Rita’s Animagus is a beetle as a nod to the Beatles’ “Lovely Rita.” Rita Skeeter, meter maid.

Laura: Oh!

Andrew: Oh, interesting.

Eric: That’s fun! [sings] “Lovely Rita, meter maid.”

Laura: I love that.

Micah: We can probably get an orchestral version of that so you don’t get copyright infringement, if we want to use that as the sound effect. I’ll look it up for you, Andrew. Don’t worry.

Eric: For the beetle catch, yeah. You know, I’ll just say I think beetles are actually really pretty. We had Japanese beetles, I think, in our backyard, and their colors just always blew me away.

Andrew: Okay, guys.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: And did you know they use…? It’s actually been scientifically proven that dung beetles use the stars to navigate.

Laura: That’s cool.

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: All right, but they’re still really scary.

Eric: It’s insane. It’s insane. The meaning that I always took away from Harry Potter was this idea that you would call a journalist an insect. She waddles around in the filth, and she’s an insect because she’s so beneath us, or she’s not deserving of full human respect or whatever, whatever, whatever. That’s what I always thought it meant, and not anything deeper. But it’s always satisfying to go into this kind of stuff because the more you think about it, too, recycling information and this other stuff is really compelling, I must admit.

Micah: It’s obvious why she chooses it, because it also allows her to just get into places and situations that anybody else otherwise wouldn’t have the ability to. But I’m also interested from the standpoint of, the beetle can be killed very easily, and especially thinking about how common it is for people to swat bugs, was she never concerned that somebody wasn’t just not going to be like, “Boom,” and Rita’s gone?

Andrew: [laughs] Or capture her in a glass jar?

Micah: Well, that’s coming later.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, I bet she’s constantly worried about that after the events of this book.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, it’s a good thought.

Micah: But if you’re Sirius, you’re a dog, right? If you’re James, you’re a stag. You’re intimidating.

Andrew: Well, but if you’re small, you’re easy to…

Micah: Conceal.

Andrew: … it’s easy to sneak around, whereas if you’re a dog, it’s not easy to sneak around.

Micah: Yeah, I know. But what if Trevor ate her?

Andrew: Yeah, well, I guess you’ve got to keep your distance from any foes.

Micah: I guess that’s part of the… yeah, you’ve got to be smart.

Andrew: There’s no perfect solution, I suppose, unless you’re just invisible.

Laura: And I think she’s being portrayed as the type of journalist who will do anything for the story, right? And that extends to this, to potentially compromising her own safety, which a lot of journalists in the real world do all the time, journalists that are way better than Rita. But speaking of Rita, she is creating some work headaches for Arthur and Percy in the days following the Quidditch World Cup, so they’re both having to put in long hours at work because of her sensationalist reporting about the terroristic events of the Quidditch World Cup. And it is noted fairly early on in discussions of Rita Skeeter… I think it’s Bill who says, “Rita Skeeter never makes anyone look good,” so that’s the first I think real introduction that we get to her as a character, is this depiction of her being just the kind of journalist that is never going to print anything nice about anybody.

Eric: I mean, in addition to her putting herself in danger by being a beetle and maybe being stepped on – we were just talking about – she’s also not making any friends this way. Her chosen style of journalism does put her, I think, at further risk, because she really doesn’t have anything nice to say. And this is sensationalized journalism; Rita obviously represents a much larger but very real concept, and something that we… in Britain, the tabloid situation for many decades has been way out of hand, even more so than it has been in other places of the world, so a sensationalizing journalist who’s unafraid to make things entirely up – has no ethics – is a very important character, I guess, to showcase in this as this politicking is going on.

Micah: I’m glad you said that, though, because this also continues to world build for us, and we’ve talked about that a lot at the start of this book. And of course, we’ve heard of the Daily Prophet before, but now we’re introduced to an actual “journalist” in Rita Skeeter, and we start to see how the media plays a role within the wizarding world through her as a character and through comments like Bill makes about her, right? How the media is perceived, how certain journalists are perceived; and I know we’re going to talk a little bit more about that later, but just wanted to bring that up. And Laura, I was thinking about this because I know we often talk about work, but Arthur pulls one of those situations where the next day he’s like, “I gotta go to work, I gotta go to work,” and Molly is saying to him, “No, Honey, relax. Take the day… you were in a very stressful situation.” And we’ve all been there where we’re like, “No, gotta go. I gotta go to work.” And Percy, of course, too.

Laura: Well, especially if you feel like you’re the one who messed up, which Arthur does. Whether there’s any merit to him feeling that way is another conversation…

Eric: Sure.

Laura: … but he is the unnamed Ministry official who gives Rita a quote that is then used in this article that’s really just intended to slander the Ministry and point out, I think, some of the same criticisms that we’ve had of them over the course of this event, so Arthur feels responsible.

Andrew: And he enjoys his job, right? So this is a unique opportunity for him. I know it’s hard, I know it sucks, I know it’s stressing him out, but he also feels like “This is my time to shine,” in a way. Like, “I’m going to get involved in this situation and help resolve it.”

Micah: But it’s not his department. He should stay in his lane.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It is kind of, though, company culture, right? When you feel that loyalty to the system, essentially.

Micah: Exactly.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eric: And that is Arthur. He’s a company man.

Andrew: Clearly a workaholic if he wants to keep going in. [laughs]

Eric: Well, there’s that as well. But yeah, he feels personally responsible, and even if he weren’t like, not mentioned by name but quoted anyway in a Prophet article, it is this culture of “All hands on deck” at the Ministry because they need as many people as they can get to run interference, basically, now that the journalism aspect is becoming a problem.

Laura: Yeah. And Rita really adds fuel to the fire by noting that several bodies were removed from the woods after the Dark Mark was cast. And we didn’t see anything in the last chapter to substantiate those claims at all, so this is just Rita writing what she thinks it is people want to read, and she goes into that philosophy a little later in the book when we meet her.

Eric: This is where she crosses the line, to me. This is just straight up fake news. She knows there’s no bodies, but posting “Oh, the rumors of the bodies…” It’s actually irresponsible. It’s sensationalist journalism.

Micah: Clickbait.

Eric: It’s clickbait, but the story is sensational without her making this stuff up, and so for me, where she fails the integrity test is stoking those fears of bodies and starting just straight up lying. I’m sorry; there’s exaggeration and there’s lying. The bodies coming out of the woods? That’s a lie.

Laura: Well, and she’s shielding herself too. It’s the same thing that you see in gossip magazines; you’ll see these allusions to rumors, or friends of X person have said, and it’s like, this isn’t a real thing. This is just something that you’re printing to sell copies, but you can’t state it as a fact, so you’re going to say it’s a rumor.

Andrew: Also, her higher-ups at the Daily Prophet are to blame here as well. They should be asking, “Well, who are your sources?” Bodies? I mean, that’s a bold claim to make, saying that bodies were pulled out.

Eric: Right, she needs an editor, to be like, “You can’t say this without… you need to give up your source.”

Andrew: And presumably she has one, but they’re letting this go, too, so the Daily Prophet is very irresponsible as well.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good… if Rita has an editor, they’re as morally bankrupt as she is. [laughs] Because the stuff she gets away with this whole year is insane.

Laura: Hey, it sells. What is it? What’s the saying? “If it bleeds, it leads”?

Andrew: If it bleeds, it leads. Yep.

Eric: Oh, man. Well, and bad news is good news, or all news is whatever…

Andrew: Everybody listening, watch your local news tonight on television. What’s the first story they feature? Somebody getting killed in your city. And unfortunately, it’s indicative of a larger problem in this country, but if it bleeds, it leads. That’s what gets people’s attention right at the top.

Eric: Man.

Laura: We can give Rita a little bit of credit here because Arthur also mentions that part of the damage control, part of the interference that he’s having to run, is because due to all of Rita’s buzzing around over the last few days because of these events, she found out about Bertha Jorkins’s disappearance. Credit where credit’s due. Was she ethical about how she did it? Absolutely not. But is this a case where Rita’s particular style of journalism, lacking in integrity though it is, is doing an actual public service?

Eric: Well, look, I think there’s very important points even that Rita does make, like the things she says about there being lax security and a national disgrace that the Death Eaters got to parade around. She’s not wrong.

Laura: No.

Eric: That’s absolutely 100%. Dark wizards running “unchecked”? Absolutely; that’s exactly what happened. So I don’t think that there… we cannot fault her for saying some things because they’re absolutely true and fair, and people should be questioning the government when a blunder like this happens or when somebody like Bertha Jorkins disappears. The fact that he – meaning Bagman – is outed in this chapter as not having done any searching… because Percy alludes to the fact; he’s like, “I told Bagman to do some searching.” The fact that he hasn’t, good, because they have done… everyone has failed Bertha Jorkins. And Rita Skeeter, it just takes somebody like her to be like, “This is a nightmare.” And is she exaggerating? Actually, this case, no. It’s a nightmare.

Andrew: In some ways, she is the much needed voice for critical Harry Potter podcasters like us.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We’re out here making these accusations against the Ministry and the wizarding world and all the issues. We can’t criticize her! We’d be throwing rocks in a glass house.

Eric and Laura: Wow.

Andrew: We stand with Rita here at MuggleCast.

Laura: Oh, no. [laughs]

Andrew: Lax security.

Micah: So you agree that she saw Dumbledore for who he was.

Andrew: I didn’t say that. [laughs]

Laura: Oooooh…

Andrew: Is this how you want to start the year, Micah?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Well, she wrote a book.

Andrew: I must admit that I do have the Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

Micah: From MinaLima.

Andrew: … MinaLima print framed in my home, so yes, actually, Micah, I am saying that.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Whoa. Andrew, you spent all of 2023 touching grass…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … and now you’re starting out 2024 saying that Dumbledore is a liar and a fraud. I can’t believe it.

Andrew: No, I still need to stand with all my Dumbledore fans who listen to the show.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: We’ve put him in a corner here. He’s in a corner.

Andrew: Don’t worry, I won’t let you down. I’ll burn that print from MinaLima tonight.

Eric: Oh my God.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I mean, it was several hundred dollars. But I’ll burn it for you all. [laughs] In solidarity.

Eric: There has to be an alternative.

Andrew: It’s signed by them.

Laura: Please don’t.

Micah: I will say, it is nice to see somebody challenging the Ministry just given how much we’ve seen and will see the Daily Prophet be a mouthpiece for them, thinking as we move forward in this book into Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. I think the real solution here is just to have more journalists. I mean, Rita is the only journalist we ever meet, and she goes way off the deep end, but that’s not a reason to say we shouldn’t have any journalists, right? And to your point, Micah, of somebody challenging the Ministry, absolutely. But somebody should also be out there; another journalist should be challenging Rita. There should be two, at minimum, investigative sensationalist journalisms given equal bylines in the Daily Prophet, where you can read the perspective of more than one person. And hopefully, hope to God, hope to Merlin, they hire somebody with more integrity. But if there was just somebody else out there doing the work that Rita is doing, she would be forced to toe some line or be more of the middle ground, or people would appreciate her eccentricities because they would never venture into that territory of utterly absurd, or she would lose viewers to the person that was doing the more balanced, level-headed stuff. So this is a situation where more competition would breed better, I think, moral ground.

Laura: I hope so. But honestly, people love sensationalism. I mean, look at our own media, right? I mean, you see some of the most sensational lies being the outlets that get the most attention, the most viewership, readership, what have you, and I think that’s exactly what Rita is meant to represent here. Presumably there are other journalists who work at the Daily Prophet; we just don’t hear about them.

Andrew: This also ties into what we were talking about a few minutes ago with Rita being allowed to publish that bodies may have been pulled out of the forest. In a way, the fact that that got through was a canary in the coal mine for what we would later learn to be more corruption at the Daily Prophet.

Laura: True.

Micah: Right. And I would say the biggest challenge, Eric, to Rita is, of course, Xenophilius and the Quibbler, but the issue there is that they’re not taken seriously for their journalism. They’re just seen as crackpot.

Eric: Well, and Xenophilius is unhinged.

Micah: Yeah, but there is truth in some of what he writes, right? A smidge?

Eric: You’re right, but there’s nobody in-house. The United States used to have something called the Fairness Doctrine, and it required investigative stuff like this, matters of public interest, to be given broadcast time for both sides of an argument, and Rita Skeeter instead is able to run roughshod, publish anything that she wants, presumably without any level of needing to censor herself. And this is what allows her as the book goes on to relentlessly smear Hermione and all of the other crazy things that happen throughout the years. So it’s all because nobody is really making sure that there’s any kind of level or balanced or reasonable thing being in the print media.

Laura: Yeah, I think she’s also a representation of the British tabloids, which are a whole different level of gossip journalism that I think, based on events of the last 10 years or so, I think we’re all pretty familiar with. But British tabloids can be particularly vicious, and I really think particularly with regard to how Rita treats Hermione in turning her into a villain, I think that’s her place here. And unfortunately in this story, the Ministry is rubbing shoulders a little too closely with the Daily Prophet as the series goes on. Something I thought was interesting about Rita, and now thinking about Molly, is that Molly clearly recognizes that Rita Skeeter is a hack in this chapter. She tells Arthur not to let this woman “ruin whatever time off you have; she’s a hack.” I forget exactly how she referred to her, but it’s clear that Molly has no love for Rita Skeeter. But then later on in the book, she laps up everything Rita says about Hermione and treats her horribly. I thought that this was so interesting, and I was wondering why we think that is.

Eric: I think that Rita’s comments negatively trigger Molly’s mother instinct for Harry, and it’s one of the few subjects… one of the few ways to get Molly to turn on anybody is to make her think that one of her sons is being abused. That’s the only way that that this person could appeal to Molly. But because people who believe something unpopular need that verification; they need to believe that they’re good people. She then switches over and is like, “No, Rita Skeeter…” There’s no thought to it, because she needs to justify protecting Harry at all costs, so she’s now going to believe this person that previously she wouldn’t have given two inches to.

Andrew: Yeah, Harry is sort of her North Star, so I like your point that you’re bringing up about “gotta protect Harry at all costs.” I wonder if she’s also carried a little disdain for Hermione in the background…

Eric: Maybe.

Andrew: … and now some of that’s being brought to the forefront with Rita’s reporting.

Laura: I don’t know.

Eric: It occurs to me… what you were saying, Laura, a moment ago about Rita Skeeter being against the Ministry, but the Daily Prophet in the future always being the mouthpiece of the Ministry… I think what changed at the end of this book is when you’d usually have somebody like Rita calling things out and being negative about the Ministry, that’s when Hermione has captured her. And so Hermione might actually negatively impact the future of the wizarding world, because by removing Rita from the equation, the only people publishing at the Daily Prophet are the ones that are going to say what the Ministry wants them to say, and not somebody like Rita, who probably would have found something unpopular to say government-wise.

Laura: Yeah, I wonder how long they would have kept her on as a reporter at the Daily Prophet. I can definitely see them parting ways with anyone who doesn’t toe the line. But it’s a good point, that not having Rita’s voice out there… and it’s unfortunate, too, because I think we’re establishing that she has her moments where she’s right, but she’s not leading with the being right. She’s not leading with doing the right thing; she’s not leading with the ethics of it. She’s leading with salacious details, juicy stories, hot goss, as the kids say, and that just, I think, removes any validity from anything she brings to the table, right? She doesn’t care about Bertha Jorkins; it’s just a juicy story. “Incompetent Ministry official loses one of his department members for four months, doesn’t report it.” That’s really what she’s looking for.

Eric: Yeah.

Laura: So obviously – I think we’ve touched on this quite a bit – we’re all pretty familiar with the real world consequences of this brand of journalism. Clearly, media literacy is as much a problem in the wizarding world as it is in the Muggle world. So I wanted to ask for an honesty moment. This is a safe space, everyone…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … but have any of us ever been caught up in following salacious gossip-based reporting? I have.

Andrew: Oh, following. At first I read this as, “Has anybody been reported on in the gossip rags?”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No, no, no!

Andrew: Well, the reason my mind…

Laura: I mean, I know you have, Andrew.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, so briefly, I’ll just…

Micah: Yes to both for Andrew.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: To answer your actual question, Laura, yeah, some gossip is fun to read. I used to be really into PerezHilton.com, and I still enjoy reading TMZ, even though, believe it or not, I find a lot of that actually fact-based. But a lot of people might not know there was actually a gossip rag for the Harry Potter fandom called the Acid Quill, and this was a real thing that two people were running. I later found out who wrote it; years and years later I found out who wrote it/was running it. But they were “reporting” [laughs] on things that were happening at fandom events, and there was some reporting on me at one point. I’m sure you all were mentioned at other points.

Eric: Not me. I escaped.

Laura: No, I was not important enough.

Andrew: Well, you all are just angels, aren’t you? [laughs]

Eric: Yes, we are, and that’s the point.

Andrew: No, but it didn’t report anything bad about what I was up to, but it was a little spooky because somebody… information was being leaked. And they later apologized for it; they were kind of teenagers who were doing it, who were…

Laura: Yeah, it was creepy, though, because they managed to get pictures of people at parties that were not open. And not just Andrew, I mean; other prominent figures in the Harry Potter fandom were being written about and gossiped about. It was wild.

Andrew: Yeah, the details are what were disturbing me. I can’t say I remember any photos. But it was rough; I didn’t like it.

Laura: Oh, do you remember how they would get people’s AIM transcripts?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, I don’t remember that.

Micah: Wow.

Laura: I remember that. That was awful. Anyway.

Eric: I wonder if I can recruit them to get mine and Emerson’s old AIM transcripts for me, because I miss those conversations, away messages…

Laura: Did you have a bunch of fights with him over AIM? Because I think everybody did. [laughs]

Eric: Well, probably not. I mean, I’m pretty sure it was like, “Hey,” and three days later was it like, “Hey, how’s it going?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: “Not bad, just read a book a day,” something, something. [laughs]

Micah: “Love my hat. Thank you.”

Eric: “Thank you. Thank you, sir.”

Micah: “Go Irish.”

Laura: [laughs] Well, I will say that I have definitely found myself getting caught up in this kind of journalism, and it’s not even necessarily journalism as it relates to celebrities or pop culture. I have definitely found myself following certain political stories where there’s a gossip angle probably a little more closely than I should have, especially if it was somebody that I didn’t like. Just being totally real with y’all. Like, yeah, it’s human. I’ve done it.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Eric: And definitely this sense of closeness, or like you personally know somebody who’s a celebrity or a government official, is a very attractive failing of the human race. A psychological thing that we do… it brings us joy to feel close to the Kardashians; it makes us feel like we… we either live vicariously through something or we hate-watch their relationship tank. There’s a lot of social aspects to the psychology behind why this kind of news that Rita Skeeter is putting sells. And so to your point, Laura, I think yeah, it is. It is totally normal. It’s certainly prevalent, and it is a lot in the real world.

Andrew: People naturally enjoy watching a train wreck. We love mess. We like watching the s-show.

Eric: Give me the tea. Give me all the tea.

Micah: Well, I also think that…

Laura: And in that way, we’re not so different from wizards.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: That’s true.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: But I think we subscribe to forms of media that fit our belief systems, but that doesn’t always mean that those forms of media are truthful, and I think you have to look really hard to find unbiased journalism. I think you may not find it anywhere, to be quite candid, right?

Andrew: True.

Micah: Because there’s always some personal element that’s factored into what that particular story is.

Andrew: A personal bias.

Micah: Yeah, it’s probably an unconscious bias on some level. And I was thinking specifically… I mean, yes, it could be very easy for me to sit here and say, “Yeah, Fox News, fair and balanced? Yeah, right.” But I was thinking more so in this case of the New York Times, right? Their tagline is “All the news that’s fit to print,” but isn’t that just them printing the news that they see fit to print?

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Because there’s plenty of other news out there. So I thought I would…

Eric: I think that’s it, like the Washington Post too, as well, had to disclose I think at a certain point the disclaimer of who owns them, right? And when you have these major, major, major news conglomerates being owned by corporations, you’re not getting unbiased news.

Laura: Right.

Eric: You’re getting the most politically appropriate news that’s politically appropriate for the company that owns that news outlet, and don’t kid yourself that there’s anything other than that happening. So the Daily Prophet being the wizarding world’s only real established source of news that we see is a huge problem, just because again, there’s none of that competition going on. There’s none of that desire for truthfulness.

Laura: Yeah, that’s such a great point.

Eric: So follow MuggleCast on Truth Social. We’re starting…

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Yeah, everything we say, you’d totally believe.

Eric: Your unbiased news source.

Laura: Yeah, if we did that, I would quit the show. [laughs]

Eric: [laughs] I would quit the show too. Oh, man.

Laura: Anything else apart from… I’ll just say this, y’all: Read your local news. You’re going to get a lot of really good reporting out of your local news. Local news goes very under-appreciated.

Andrew: And read multiple sources.

Laura: Yes, oh my gosh.

Eric: Yeah, media literacy right is like, please have some.

Andrew: So important. One of my favorite classes I took in college, media literacy. And I was actually just reading earlier today, states are slowly but surely starting to require media literacy classes. And to be clear, that’s understanding how to check sources, make sure you’re getting the right information, understanding what might be happening behind the scenes at media outlets, etc. Important class.

Laura: Too little too late, some might say.

[Andrew laughs]


Odds & Ends


Laura: But anyway, let’s move into some Odds & Ends. So I wanted to give Mundungus Fletcher a shout-out; he gets briefly mentioned in this chapter. He’s trying to commit, I think, the wizarding world equivalent of insurance fraud.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: He’s trying to get the Ministry to reimburse him for a much more exquisite tent than what he had, which was described as like, a coat propped up on a few sticks. [laughs]

Eric: Sticks, yeah. And he wants a 12-bedroom ensuite with jacuzzi.

Andrew: Fraud.

Eric: It’s fraud. But maybe first mention of Mundungus Fletcher?

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Andrew: Ooh.

Laura: Ron also receives those horrid, horrid dress robes that are on his school list.

Eric: And featured as a bonus outfit in Hogwarts Legacy.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura and Micah: It is.

Micah: But Mrs. Weasley really doesn’t do Ron any favors here. And in the movie, we hear that these robes were hand-me-downs from somebody in his family, but it actually sounds like these were purchased, most likely at a secondhand store. But Ron is kind of the runt of the litter and he ends up with all the hand-me-downs. We look at Scabbers, his first wand… and I was just thinking to myself, both Bill and Charlie are employed. They couldn’t help Ron out from time to time with some nice things?

Andrew: Well, and also, Harry says he wishes he could give the Weasleys half his fortune. Why not just buy Ron a new dress robe set? He could.

Micah: He could, 100%. Especially given everything that the Weasleys do for him, right?

Andrew: Yeah, and Molly doesn’t have to know.

Laura: Yeah, I think he would if they would let him.

Micah: This will put Ron in a really bad situation. When he gets it in the movie, it’s in front of everybody in the Great Hall, and he makes the joke that it must be for Ginny, and Ginny is like, “No, it’s actually for you,” and everybody laughs at him and then he looks terrible when he goes to the Yule Ball. I just feel like Molly could have a little bit more care when it comes to Ron.

Eric: I forget where I saw this point, too, but Molly could sew something; she could fix it herself. She could get rid of some of that lace, maybe take it in a little bit, make it a little bit more masculine-presenting, instead of embarrassing Ron and then insulting him, saying if he runs around naked, it would be a sight to see. Unbelievable.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “I could use a laugh.”

Eric: But Ron leaves this chapter on such a down note. I mean, Pigwidgeon takes that exact moment to start choking on a biscuit or their food or something, and he’s like, “Why is everything I own rubbish?”

Micah: Because he probably realized how bad that thing looked too.

Eric: I know.

Laura: Probably.

Andrew: And that was the closing line of the chapter. “Why is everything I own rubbish?” It was quite the downer of a way to end the chapter.

Eric: It’s a real downer.

Laura: I know. Poor Ron.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: Honestly, if I were him, I would just take my regular school robes and ask one of the professors to just change the color of the robes, because Harry’s robes are described as just looking like his school robes, but they’re emerald green. It seems like there could be some magic worked.

Eric: Well, they’re fourth years at this point; they should be able to alter garments themselves, change the color of this thing. Come on, that seems pretty easy, right? To your point about hand-me-downs, too… and Bill and Charlie, maybe none of them ever had dress robes that they could just give Ron, and that speaks to the uniqueness of the Yule Ball, which is not being mentioned yet. There’s been no call for formal school robes at Hogwarts in possibly the entire time since before Bill and Charlie went to Hogwarts, so it’s actually a big deal that’s masquerading as… where the only talk we get of it is Ron’s disappointment.

Micah: Yeah, but they could have bought him robes.

Eric: Yeah, it’s fair.

Micah: They’re both cool. They could find something suitable.

Laura: Yeah, I think so. Moving on here, Harry reminds Ron and Hermione and the reader of Trelawney’s prophecy from the end of Prisoner of Azkaban about the Dark Lord’s servant returning to him and the Dark Lord will rise once again. So again, another really nice connection to Prisoner of Azkaban from this early point in Goblet of Fire. We know that Fred and George are noted as quietly working on something; we don’t yet know what it is.

Andrew: And Molly is already talking smack on Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes…

[Eric groans]

Laura: I know.

Andrew: … which kills me because this was right after saying she regretted her final words to the boys about their OWLs before the Quidditch World Cup, and now she’s already back to her old ways. Did you not learn anything? I thought you did. You were a wreck. You were like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe the last time I’d seen you before the Quidditch World Cup, I said something bad.” And now here she goes saying something bad again!

Eric: Well, to their credit, they call her out on exactly that.

Andrew: Yeah, and she even laughs.

Eric: Well, but she knows that they’re persistent. And that’s the best and worst quality of the Weasley twins, is their persistence, and so they very well could be up to something negative. We know they’re not; they’re trying to draft a letter. But they could very well be printing up more order forms.

Micah: And along these lines, I know I’m always the one that gets called out for being a savage…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … but Eric, actually you shared a transcript very recently: Episode 210, when we last discussed this very chapter. Laura, to this very point, said, “Yep, she’ll be regretting that one in three years.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: Listen…

Micah: It’s the Ravenclaw blood, the sarcasm.

Laura: It is. It’s there. But I feel like… I don’t know. I feel like I’ve become more subtle, 19 years later.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, you’re not in it for the shock value anymore.

Laura: No, I’m not. I’m not. I was Rita Skeeter back then. How long was that episode ago? 13 years, you said?

Eric: Yeah, 13 years, two months.

Micah: Oof.

Laura: Yep. And then finally here, Hermione thinks that it’s lucky that Rita hasn’t found out how Crouch treats his house-elves. In response to learning that she has found out about Bertha Jorkins, Hermione is like, “Oh, well, Crouch is lucky that she hasn’t found out how he treats house-elves.” And I think what Hermione is missing here is that the sad reality is that this treatment is so commonly accepted that it would never create the necessary shock to sell papers and thus would not be reported on.

Eric: Yeah. I think that’s more of a conversational retort that Hermione is trying to get a word in edgewise, but unfortunately, this whole book she doesn’t really have a case to state. There’s no shock about the elves being mistreated.

Laura: No.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, well, that is the chapter, and now it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: Going back to something we brought up a couple minutes ago, I’m going to give my MVP of the Week to Ron, specifically for the line, “Mum, you’ve given me Ginny’s new dress” when presented with his new dress robes.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I thought that was very funny. And sorry, Ron.

Eric: I’m sure she does the laundry all the time. That must happen in a house with so many kids.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Like, “Oopsie.” I’m going to give mine to Mundungus Fletcher trying to get a big, big tent from the government. Bless him for trying. I don’t dislike Mundungus yet. He’s great.

Andrew: Yet.

Laura: So far. Controversially, I’m going to give mine to Rita Skeeter.

[Andrew gasps]

Laura: Not because I like her, but because she is genuinely the most interesting thing that happens in this chapter.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And her entire character arc is really interesting to me.

Micah: And she’s not even there. That’s the best part.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: She’s not physically there.

Laura: I know, she’s not even there; she carries such a reputation.

Andrew: That’s how you know you’re good.

Micah: And I’m going to give it to Basil, [pronounces it BAY-zil] who is the master…

Eric: Basil. [pronounces it BAH-zil]

Laura: It’s Basil. [pronounces it BAH-zil]

Micah: I don’t know; however you want to pronounce it. The master of the Portkeys. That man was very busy the morning after the Quidditch World Cup.

Eric: It was such a stressful job.

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Andrew: Well, I think we had a good start to the year with Chapter by Chapter. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or by using our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Next week, we’ll discuss Chapter 11 of Goblet of Fire, which is titled “Aboard the Hogwarts Express.” And we will also enjoy one of our Slug Club patrons.

Micah: Choo-choo.

Andrew: Yes. Well, Micah, I mean, you’re not going to be here next week, so we’ll just have to play this sound effect again and again.

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

[Micah laughs]

[Micah’s “Choo-choo” sound effect plays]

Andrew: So you’ll be here in spirit.

Micah: Correct.

Andrew: And you’ll really be in Paris. Have a nice time.

Micah: Thank you.

Eric: Yeah, Micah, are you going to check out the Circus Arcanus? I hear they’re in Paris.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I will…

Andrew: [laughs] You sound so excited.

Eric: Please take pictures of the French Ministry.

Micah: Yeah, I want to make sure I see them before they move to Orlando for their permanent residence.

Andrew: [laughs] We can do the bonus MuggleCast on that, actually.

Micah: But Père Lachaise, right? Probably cool to check out.

Eric: Oh, please go.

Andrew: Please go! I’ve never been. I would love to go to Paris. That’s next on my…

Micah: And I will be in London afterward, so I am headed to the Studio Tour and will report back.


Quizzitch


Andrew: All right, well, it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last year’s last Quizzitch question: What did Rita Skeeter once called Bill Weasley in an interview with Gringotts curse-breakers? The correct answer is a “long-haired pillock.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Which, at least it wasn’t me she called that. Correct answers; here are the winners for the last Quizzitch of last year. Justice for Winky; Mrs. Finnigan’s Irish wristwatch; The hella good boat Arthur made for Ludo Bagman; Bill and Rita totally got their Skeeter on; Pilbus Dumbledore’s Christmas cookies; Mundungus Fletcher’s 12-bedroom tent with ensuite jacuzzi; Hermione is an anarchist and I will die on this hill; Andrew’s unwholesome gift; All I will want for Christmas is sexy Bill Weasley; Stream the Triwizard Tournament on pillock, I mean Peacock…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … BuffDaddy; HallowWolf; Katie from Hufflepuff; Nate the 12-year-old, cooler than this Luke kid… that’s harmful.

Andrew: Wow, ouch.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Oh, man. Shots fired.

Eric: That was what they put. I think Luke is amazing. Okay, Elizabeth K; Amazing Skabidi; Perry over the 12th; If Ron is a time-traveling Dumbledore than the 1890s dress robes make perfect sense; Dumbledore’s lawn chair he uses to watch chaos unfold…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: … Wrackspurt Chaser; and finally, this is one I’ve never heard before in 20 years of being a Harry Potter fan. Question: Where can you find Dumbledore’s Army? Answer: up his sleevy.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: I get it.

Andrew: Well, it sort of rhymes.

Micah: I’m excited mine made it.

Eric: Oh, yours did make it. Which one is yours?

Laura: Probably the one that had me shook.

Eric: Oh, Bill and Rita totally got their Skeeter on?

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Laura: Oh, that was you. Okay.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: See, Laura and I are on the same wavelength. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I was shook when I heard… I was like… [laughs]

Micah: See, I was creative without being too inappropriate.

Laura: Yeah. I appreciate it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: All right. Well, here is the first Quizzitch question of the new year: What spell does Hermione start learning on the Hogwarts Express in Harry’s fourth year? Meaning this year, meaning the chapter that we’re about to read next week. Anyone can submit their answer and fun nickname to us on the Quizzitch form, which is located on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or go to MuggleCast – set it as your homepage while you’re there – and click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Andrew: Set it as your homepage. Speaking of MuggleCast.com, if you click on the “Must-listens” link in the menu, you will find our Wall of Fame, which was updated over our break; Micah added numerous episodes. This is a great place to go to find some of our favorite episodes of MuggleCast, some big news-oriented episodes of MuggleCast, some particularly fun and special episodes. So maybe if you’re a new listener, even over the last couple years, go to MuggleCast.com, click on “Must-listens”; you’ll find other great stuff, too: our Chapter by Chapter archive, our movie commentaries, special interviews, and more.

Micah: We added maybe ten or so episodes from 2023, including our most recent one, which I know we had gotten a couple suggestions in the Discord to just throw it up there, so our last episode.

Andrew: Oh, our best Christmas episode ever.

Micah: [laughs] Yes. Minus the cheer.

Andrew: [laughs] Got it.

Micah: Since it was such a dark episode. But I will say, the ones that I really enjoy going back and listening to are the ones that we did on the specific Houses, the deep dive that we did on Gryffindor, Slytherin…

Andrew: Oh, those were so fun.

Micah: … but more importantly, Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff.

Andrew: And you wrote little captions for each episode, which is great as well, so check all of those out on the “Must-listens” page on MuggleCast.com. You can also visit the site for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, and to contact us. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles like you would, too, tell a friend about the show. We would also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. And last but not least, listener support is the reason why we are a weekly podcast, so visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast if you want to support the show and you’ll receive early access to the show, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, yearly physical gifts, access to our livestreams, and so much more. And then, if you prefer to support us via Apple Podcasts, we now have MuggleCast Gold, where you’ll get bonus MuggleCast, ad-free MuggleCast, and early access to MuggleCast. As Micah brought up at the top of the episode, it’s a great deal. Whether you’re pledging through Patreon or Apple Podcasts, free trials are available and so are annual subscriptions, and if you sign up for a year upfront, you will receive a discount on that annual subscription. That’s our way of thanking you for supporting us for the year ahead. So that does it for this week’s episode. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Happy New Year. Excited to be with you in our 19th year of being your Harry Potter friends. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric and Micah: Bye.

Laura: Bye, y’all

Transcript #639

 

MuggleCast 639 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #639, Christmas Lights or Chaos? (GOF Chapter 9: The Dark Mark)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Grab your wand and your best pair of running shoes as we try to avoid Death Eaters, Veela, and annoying Ministry officials, because this week we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 9, “The Dark Mark.” There’s no better chapter to discuss during the holidays, as I wear a Santa Claus hat for our final episode of the year.

Eric: This is about as cheery a chapter as Batman Returns is for Christmas movies. [laughs] It’s got a lot of darkness.

Andrew: Yes. And we will be off for the next two weeks, but don’t fret, because we’d love to see you on Patreon, where there’s tons of bonus episodes available, including a brand new favorite headcanons installment, which is holiday-themed. So definitely check that out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Speaking of bonus MuggleCast, we also have another bonus up right now; we look back on 2023 and look ahead to 2024. And by the way, speaking of 2024: Beginning in 2024, those who financially support us via Apple Podcasts will be getting access to each installment of bonus MuggleCast. This is a new feature for Apple Podcasts subscribers. We’re also going to be raising the price of this subscription to $4.99 a month to accommodate for the additional content, and because Micah always says, “It’s such a great deal.” So it’s time for us…

Micah: Don’t blame me.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: To be fair, you do always say, “It’s such a great deal.”

Andrew: Yeah. And it is such a great deal that we need to bring the price up along with new benefits.

Micah: Well, look, the way that I think about this is you’re getting four episodes every month, and then you’re getting two bonus MuggleCast segments, so that’s less than $1 per piece of content. And isn’t it ad-free?

Andrew: It’s ad-free and you get it early, yeah. So that’s how you can support us.

Micah: Oh my gosh, it’s less than a Starbucks.

Andrew: [laughs] It’s less than a Starbucks.

Eric: “A Starbucks”?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: You can give up one Starbucks a month to get ad-free, early access, six pieces of content.

Andrew: I agree.

Eric: You can take that to the bank.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: With your “a Starbucks.”

Eric: Micah needs a fun catchphrase, yeah.

Andrew: [laughs] Anyway, there’s many more benefits at Patreon.com/MuggleCast for even more value, so definitely check either of those out. We really appreciate your support. We’re only doing the show because we have listener support; it really is as simple as that. And we have some big plans for 2024 as well. And again, we could only continue in this world of podcasting with your support at our backs. So thank you very much, everybody.


Game: Harry Potter Christmas quotes


Andrew: Like I joked – but also, I wasn’t really joking – today’s Chapter by Chapter is pretty dark, so first, we’re going to have a little holiday fun. We’re going to take a quiz together in which we have to identify what Harry Potter book a variety of Christmas-related passages are from. This is from Sporcle, and it’s a seven minute timer, but we’re definitely going to be able to knock this out in faster than seven minutes, I think. All right, and listeners, obviously please play along with us. So here we go. We’ve got 16 questions; here’s the first Christmas-related quote:

“His heart swelled with happiness and relief, and he felt like joining in as they heard Sirius tramping past their door towards Buckbeak’s room, singing ‘God Rest Ye, Merry Hippogriffs’ at the top of his voice.”

Laura and Micah: Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Yeah, Sirius Black is only alive in two of those books.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Right.

“‘Go back to sleep’

Nah… presents!'”

Harry and Seamus.

Eric and Laura: Ooh.

Andrew: So the options are Goblet of Fire, Prisoner, Order, or Chamber.

Laura: I feel like it’s Chamber

Andrew: This sounds like an early one to me too.

Eric: I’m going to guess Goblet, maybe?

Micah: I was thinking Goblet because they’re not very nice to each other. Maybe it was just the way that it was being read.

Eric: Let’s go Goblet just because we’ve seen Chamber more recently, or we’ve read it, and it seems like…

Andrew: Okay. Oh, and you were right.

Eric: Hey!

Micah: Yay.

Laura: Good job. Good call.

Andrew: Next one:

“The lake froze solid and the Weasley twins were punished for bewitching several snowballs so that they followed Quirrell around.”

Well, obviously…

Laura: There’s only one option.

Eric: Deathly Hallows!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Number four:

“Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn’t get a single pair. People will insist on giving me books.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Also Philosopher’s Stone.

Laura: Also, yeah.

Eric: Click on that sexy Thomas Taylor cover.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “On Christmas morning, Harry was woken by Ron throwing his pillow at him.”

Laura: Ooh.

Andrew: That’s generic.

Eric: That might be the line that directly precedes the next line of “We’ve got presents!”

Micah: So you’re saying Sorcerer’s Stone?

Eric: It’s either Sorcerer or Chamber.

Andrew: We already had two Sorcerer’s, so I vote Chamber.

Eric: I think it might be…

Laura: It’s going to suck if it’s Philosopher’s again. [laughs] It’s one of those two, I agree.

Andrew: Okay, I’m going to say…

Laura: Just executive decision.

Eric: Click on Chamber; it’s fine. Oh!

Andrew: No! Oh, it was Prisoner!

Laura: Oh, we were all wrong!

Andrew: Next one:

“I’d rather have them than that necklace.”

Half-Blood Prince?

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Half-Blood Prince.

Eric: It’s the only one I can think of that mentions a necklace.

Andrew: Yes. Next one:

“It’s Christmas, and it’s not a crime to want to come to a party.”

Laura: Well, that’s obvious.

Andrew: Oh, and Slughorn said that, so obviously Half-Blood Prince. Okay,

“The more the merrier!”

Eric: … said Sirius. [laughs]

Andrew: So, Order.

Laura: Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: 5, yeah.

Andrew: “Oy! Presents!” [laughs] Ron.

Laura: Okay, Sporcle, how the…?

Eric: All right.

Andrew: We’re on the clock. Just answer. [laughs]

Eric: This has to be Chamber. It’s probably Chamber.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Oh, it’s Prisoner again!

Eric: Oh, it’s also Prisoner!

Andrew: That’s the book we just reread!

Eric: Wait a minute – in POA, Ron hits him with a pillow, and says, “Oy, presents”? Ugh.

Laura: Actually, that tracks.

Andrew: All right, next one, from Hagrid:

“Come on, cheer up, it’s nearly Christmas.”

Eric: And Chamber is not an option.

Micah: Oh, it’s not an option.

Laura: No. Is it Philosopher?

Micah: Gobbler? [laughs] Gobbler. Goblet?

Eric: Gobbler. [laughs]

Andrew: I have no clue.

Eric: Let’s guess… hmm, 1?

Andrew: I don’t think it’s number 1. Really?

Eric: Well, I’m only thinking that Harry has got something to be sad about around Christmastime in the first book.

Laura: Yeah, and they’re spending so much time in the library trying to figure… because they’re at that point in the story, right? They’re trying to figure things out.

Andrew: Ohh.

Eric: Or wait, no, they only figure out Nicolas Flamel after the break, but they could be looking him up and then Hagrid gets upset with them. He’s like, “You lot, keep…” It could be Goblet.

Laura: I don’t know. I’m not confident in this one. Andrew, be the fearless leader and make an executive decision. [laughs]

Andrew: [sighs] I liked your reasoning about their research in the library.

Laura: Oh, but what if it’s wrong?

Andrew: Actually, wait, what if Harry is stressed around the Triwizard Tournament? I’m going to say Goblet. DAMN IT!

Eric: Ohh, it was 1!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Oh my gosh. See, ladies, ladies, let this be a lesson to you.

Andrew: [laughs] When in doubt…

Laura: We doubt ourselves too much. Don’t get in your head.

Micah: That’s Goblet of Fire.

Andrew: This one is obviously Goblet. Beauxbatons.

Micah: We’ve got to go; we’ve got three minutes.

Andrew: “Harry, I think it’s Christmas Eve!”

Laura and Micah: Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: This is from George:

“And you’re not sitting with the Prefects today, either… Christmas is a time for family.”

Eric: Wait, think about it…

Micah: Prisoner?

Eric: When does Percy have to stay over the holidays? And why?

Laura: When they go to visit Egypt?

Eric: They’re in Egypt? So that’s the end of 2.

Andrew: Oh, it was number 1!

Laura: No, because they went to Egypt in the summer.

Andrew: Oh. Okay, next one from Ron:

“Cheer up, it’s the Christmas holidays, Luna’ll be home!”

Got to be Order.

Eric: No, it’ll be…

Laura: Deathly.

Eric: Because he doesn’t even like her then. It’s Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: Ohh. From Dobby:

“Dobby is only wanting to wish Harry Potter ‘Merry Christmas’ and bring him a present, sir!”

2, 4, 6, or 5?

Laura: That’s Chamber, I think.

Eric: Is it Chamber? I thought it was Goblet, because what’s the one with the socks?

Laura: Oh, maybe it is Goblet, where he gives him Uncle Vernon’s socks?

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: Yeah, it’s Goblet.

Andrew: Yes! We were right. Final one:

“Dumbledore led them in a few of his favorite carols, Hagrid booming more and more loudly with every goblet of eggnog he consumed.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: This is when they’re all eating together, right? Maybe?

Eric: 3?

Micah: When Trelawney is there?

Laura: Is that Prisoner?

Micah: I think it’s Prisoner.

Andrew: Oh, that does sound… yeah. All right, here we go. Damn it, it was 2!

[Laura gasps]

Eric: Did we get 50%?

Laura: Oh my God. I am shook.

Andrew: We got 69%. Nice. All right, well, that tripped us up a decent amount, actually. So that was just the right challenge level, I think. Well, thank you, everybody, again, for another great year here at MuggleCast. We’re very grateful for you. This next year will be 19 years of MuggleCast. 19 years later.

Eric: I feel like the year went fast, but on a recent bonus when we went over what happened and also what to look forward to, I feel like this actually was a good year in retrospect, among other years, as far as official material. It was certainly a fun year to live and do this show during, so I think that was all right.

Micah: Yeah. I think it was great to get back in person, too, and Eric, you and I were in Chicago for LeakyCon, and being able to connect again with our listeners was great. It had been several years since we had done that in Boston, so I was appreciative for that. And also, getting to see you, getting to see Andrew… Laura, we’ve got to work on this. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, well, we’ll make it happen in 2024. There’s Podcast Movement, right? [laughs]

Micah: There is.

Andrew: That is an option. That is an option.

Laura: I’m down for that.

Andrew: We will jump into Chapter by Chapter in a moment. But first, this week’s episode of MuggleCast is brought to you by Masterclass.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: It’s time for Goblet of Fire Chapter 9, “The Dark Mark,” and we’ll start, like we always do, with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: Winky…

Micah: … struggles…

Andrew: … to…

Eric: … explain…

Micah: … herself…

Laura: … to…

Eric: … Crouch.

Andrew: Perfect!

Laura: Good job, y’all.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Laura: Second week in a row that I feel like we were aligned. We were in sync.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: So the way that we broke up this discussion, we’re going to talk about the Death Eaters and the Dark Mark, and then we’re going to get into Winky and her situation at the very end of the chapter. I did just want to say that we do discuss some heavy topics in this main discussion, and while we certainly pride ourselves on being a family friendly podcast, the content can get heavy at times and may not be suitable for all ages. I want to do a quick foreshadow alert; it was something that I caught in the early part of the chapter and it’s actually when Harry first falls asleep. It says,

“Harry saw himself in robes that had his name on the back, and imagined the sensation of hearing a hundred-thousand-strong crowd roar as Ludo Bagman’s voice echoed throughout the stadium, ‘I give you, Potter!'”

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Micah: I forgot we had a…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: There it is!

Andrew: I forgot too. I had to look for it. [laughs]

Eric: I was like, “We have a sound effect for that.”

Andrew: So this is foreshadowing the Triwizard Tournament, you’re saying?

Micah: Yeah, particularly the first task, right? When Harry enters the stadium to face the dragon, he’s got his robe with his name on the back of it. And I’m trying to remember… does Ludo officiate the commentary?

Eric: I think so.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: So it is a really nice foreshadow. And of course, it happens in Harry’s dreams, where many of the future events tend to pop up from time to time.

Eric: Good catch.

Laura: That is a good catch, because I think what Harry is imagining, and also what we’re led to believe as readers, is that if anything, it’s foreshadowing about Quidditch.

Eric: Right.

Laura: But we know that this actually could have a double meaning.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely. So the sweet dreams don’t last very long, and mass chaos ensues. And the Death Eaters use the post-Quidditch World Cup celebration to cause mass hysteria. It’s a mix of witches and wizards, some who are terrified, and some who are just drunk and enjoying the fun, and this makes it very hard for the Ministry to actually get to the Death Eaters that are causing all this commotion. And there’s also a lot of explosions, a lot of curses being fired in different directions, and I thought that this is comparable to how terrorists often use the situation that they create to hide amongst the chaos.

Andrew: Yeah, what jumped to mind, for me, was the Boston Marathon bombing, because that was set off in a very busy environment. And of course, when something like that happens in such a busy environment, it’s presumably easy to hide in plain sight because there’s so many people scrambling not knowing what’s going on.

Eric: It’s really wild, too, looking at the different… well, this is basically the culmination of the anti-Muggle sentiment, which will become even clearer throughout the chapter. But what began as harmless fun – or might even be presented as harmless fun or seem like it to some of these people who are drunk, not paying attention, chiming in – leads to real harm, and real harm is being done. And so the comparisons to terrorism or another comparison we’re about to make is exactly very true and apt, I think, because this is all stemming from people who ultimately have these biases and don’t any longer have any inhibitions.

Micah: Right, and it’s also an event that is supposed to be a celebration, and it’s taking advantage of something that would normally be very positive and leveraging that for their own nefarious purposes in this case. And the Death Eaters are doing a very good job of concealing themselves; they’re dressed in these hooded cloaks with masks. And they’re marching in a Klan-like formation, and I thought to myself that this is very similar to the attire of the KKK here in the United States and the rallies that they often hold, and unfortunately, they still do it to this day. And I’m thinking back to… Charlottesville is probably the most recent one that, for us here in the United States, we can recall where it’s been so prominently displayed on television and other forms of media.

Laura: Yeah, for sure. And I think it’s such a great comparison for this chapter, because I think there’s probably a tendency in the wizarding world – as there is in the Muggle world – when something bad happened a perceived long time ago, people think that because it’s not happening anymore, because it’s no longer overtly active, that it’s done and that we’ve weeded out that particular cultural rot and we’re beyond it. But we’re not, because you never fully weed that kind of thing out, and that’s why the KKK example is so relevant here, because although the KKK are still alive and well in this country – we know that for a fact, to your point, Micah – they are generally seen as being less influential and less powerful than they once were. I think in some ways they’re seen as being more underground than they used to be. The fact that it still exists at all is obviously a problem, but that just goes to speak to how insidious this kind of discrimination and bigotry can be, that even if you think it’s gone, there’s still that undercurrent, right? And I was actually thinking about a historical point of reference that I can personally speak to on this topic, because I can see how somebody reading this chapter could look at Ron and be like, “How does Ron not know what the Dark Mark is? How does he not know what it means? It’s crazy to me that he’s raised in this world, and it seems like of the three of them of the trio, Ron should be the person who understands what’s going on.” But this actually isn’t super atypical. Y’all know that I’m from Georgia; I grew up here. The county in Georgia that I grew up in, Forsyth County, up until very recently in history – I’m talking late 1980s – had declared itself an all-white county. It was a sundown county, where essentially it just wasn’t safe to be there as a person of color, and it certainly wasn’t safe to be there after sunset. And there is a lot of history that you can read about Forsyth County, in particular in a book called Blood at the Root that talks about the really violent history in Forsyth County around being a sundown county. So just to put it in perspective, this was happening into the late 1980s. I was born in 1988. So this was happening all around the time that all of us were either just being born or were very, very young. I grew up in Forsyth County, and I did not learn about any of this sundown county or any of the violent history. Sundown policies are enforced through intimidation and violence, and it is well documented that it happened, but again, it wasn’t something that was ever discussed or taught to us in school. And even outside of an educational context, nobody ever talked about it. As a matter of fact, my eighth grade year of school, my social studies class was called Georgia Studies. [laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Laura: And we didn’t talk about it there, even though we lived in the probably most nationally prominent sundown county in the country, because Oprah actually went and filmed a special there in like, 1986, at great personal risk, because of these policies and these ideologies and how dangerous it was to be Black in Forsyth County.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: So yeah, it is highly documented. But if you’re a kid and you don’t know that that happened, and none of the adults who were there and remember what it was like talk about it, then you’re not going to know about it. So it actually makes total sense that Ron has no idea what’s going on here. And I know that’s a little bit of a tangent, but it felt like a really relevant real-life touch point to what we’re seeing happen in this chapter.

Andrew: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Micah: It is, because both are hiding in plain sight, right?

Laura: Right.

Micah: To your point, the experiences that you’ve had in growing up in Forsyth County with the KKK, they’re right there, right? And nobody necessarily knows, or nobody really talks about it. And I feel like that’s the case, too, with the Death Eaters. Yes, they’re walking around, and they’re cloaked and they’re masked, but for so long of a period of time after Voldemort’s downfall, they were also hiding in plain sight. And they’re using this moment… it’s not really clear, and we can talk about this later. Are they doing it to have fun? Are they doing it to inspire fear? Is it a little bit of both? And then bleep gets real once the Dark Mark is actually cast. And I think they actually were scared by that, because they didn’t realize that the situation was going to actually escalate to that level. They weren’t expecting Barty Crouch, Jr. to be there and cast the Dark Mark.

Eric: Yeah, but they unleashed real horrors this evening.

Micah: Oh, yeah, of course.

Eric: And they were given that opportunity, because everybody just ignores their existence and allows them… basically creates an environment where something like this can happen. And Laura, to your extremely personal and relevant point, I just think that the failure to teach new generations about racism, especially in counties where it’s practiced, leads kids to just believing that it’s a fairy tale, to not understanding the real harm that it does. And it really – I’m just going to say it – is tantamount to complacency. Ultimately, it makes it okay, because you’re treating it like it didn’t happen. And it did happen. And people were very deeply harmed, and continue to be so. So kids grow up; they believe it’s harmless. It just is not a great thing for anybody. And the Ministry, we know it’s uncomfortable for them to talk about Voldemort. In the 13 years, though, since he fell, it’s time to actually start preventing that kind of thing from happening again by talking about it. So yeah, Ron not knowing about the Dark Mark is very interesting, but it makes sense. Nobody’s talking about it.

Andrew: Which is frustrating, because to Laura’s story and to your point, it’s so recent. 13 years really is nothing, and they’re moving on like nothing ever happened. And by the way, Voldemort is still somewhere lurking.

Eric: Yeah, and this is a very obvious sign that the Ministry didn’t get everybody. And this is a big FU to the Ministry; this is one of the most Ministry events of all… somebody in this chapter says that, too, “I can’t believe they did this with… everyone from the Ministry is here.” And there’s a group of people… we’re going to get to what they’re doing, but you know, with the Muggles, and that is, “Hello, we’re free. You didn’t get us, otherwise, we’d still be an Azkaban.”

Laura: I feel like there’s a point to be made there about why you never see certain Ministry employees and Death Eaters in the same place.

Eric: Wow. The call is coming from inside the house.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that’s not to say that everyone at the Ministry is on board with this, but to your point, Eric, leaning into the complacency because it’s comfortable, because you don’t want to talk about it, because it was an ugly time. And best case scenario, you hated it and you hope it never happens again. We all know what happens to people who don’t study their history and aren’t aware of their history – they’re just doomed to repeat it, which is exactly what happens.

Eric: And you want to say, “Oh, it’s harmless,” or “Oh, it’s not going to…” or “We’re better than that.” You’re not. We’re not. As people, we are not better than that. And talking about it is the only way you can prevent for it.

Micah: Well, this was alluded to a bit already, but the Roberts family are the main victims of the Death Eaters that are marching through the camp site. And they’re described as being handled like puppets. They’re completely vulnerable; they’re unable to defend themselves. It’s really a nasty scene.

Andrew: And Ron says at least twice, like, “Wow, that’s really messed up. That is really messed up.” This also explains to us why there was such a focus on Mr. Roberts a couple chapters ago; we were wondering about that, like, “Why are we even dealing with this guy? The wizards could have just like, sent him out; confused him and sent him far away.” But Rowling involved Mr. Roberts and the whole family just to illustrate how terrible Death Eaters are, that they will mess with Muggles in a crowded space for fun.

Eric: Yeah, and we might want to issue another content warning because of, specifically, what’s being done to Mrs. Roberts, and also what happens with Draco and Hermione later. There’s some very ugly stuff here, and it just shows how this cannot be tolerated.

Micah: Yeah. And I think that certainly when we went through this chapter the first time for Chapter by Chapter, I’m not sure that we were all reading as deep into the text as as we’re doing now.

Andrew: Oh, no.

Micah: And there’s a lot of things that we’re talking about that we’ve probably gone through our own life experiences in the last 13 years since we’ve talked Goblet of Fire, and we’ve seen things happen around the world that are influencing a lot of this conversation, but in particular with Mrs. Roberts – and I apologize, because I actually read this somewhere and I can’t remember where I came across it – but she’s flipped upside down to reveal her undergarments. And as if that situation is not bad enough, Draco Malfoy, when the trio run into him a little bit later on as they’re trying to escape what’s happening, he threatens Hermione with the same kind of treatment. And now, you could say, “Well, Mrs. Roberts is a Muggle; Hermione is Muggle-born, so he’s just making an association.” But whether or not this registers in his head, he is essentially threatening her with sexual assault. And he’s 13/14 at this time; I’m not sure that that’s necessarily processing. He’s just looking to inflict some sort of harm, and we know Draco; he’s not going to deliver on it. He’s more of a verbal abuser than anything else. But this is pretty nasty; it’s about as nasty as it gets and about as bad as we see him in the entire series. Somebody asked the question – I think it was you, Eric – is this his worst moment? I don’t know that there is a worst one, honestly.

Eric: Nope.

Andrew: Yeah. Whether or not he would actually follow through with it, it’s definitely a really bad moment. And not that this excuses it, but kids say terrible things sometimes without realizing what they’re actually saying and what they’re actually talking about. And again, I’m not defending Draco in this moment, but suspect that that’s what’s happening here. I have memories of kids talking a lot of smack. He’s doing it because he gets a kick out of it, which is gross, but…

Eric: Yeah. And it’s funny because he’s asked about where his parents are, and it’s very clear that they actually are with that group of people, that he’s been left on his own to just be smarmy with people. But by the end of this chapter, it’s said, I think two or three more times, “Yeah, Malfoy’s parents were probably definitely with that group.” Children of these horrible people are doing horrible things.

Laura: For sure. I think in this case, and like most of the time we see Draco, I think that he is a bully and a coward who feels invincible when his parents are on the up and up in terms of their social standing right now. So in this circumstance, his parents are on the side that holds all the social power in this particular circumstance, so he feels emboldened to bully and terrorize verbally Hermione, and by association, Harry and Ron. But I think, just like we see later on in the series when he, despite holding these ideologies and being on the Dark Lord’s side, can’t bring himself to kill Dumbledore even though it was his mission. He’s been setting up all year to be able to do this. I don’t know that Malfoy would actually be brave enough in this moment to alert Hermione to the Death Eaters’ attention.

Eric: It’s just such a ridiculous threat, too, because she’s a witch. That’s what Ron says, too: “She’s a witch.” She’s not a Muggle, and Muggle-born people are not equatable to Muggles, and there’s nothing wrong with Muggles. He’s wrong on so many levels. And the fact that his parents in upbringing told him that it’s okay to say this kind of thing, to joke about this kind of thing, is the entire point. It shows you everything you need to know about Lucius and Narcissa.

Andrew: Well, and think how much worse this situation would have gotten, for the kids in particular, if Draco did alert the Death Eaters to Hermione, and let’s say the Death Eaters go after Hermione. Then what are Ron and Harry going to do? Of course, they’re going to come to Hermione’s defense, and other people are going to as well, and then they’re probably going to lose to the Death Eaters. So this could have gotten a lot worse too.

Eric: So getting back to the Roberts family – and it is the mother and the father and the two children – I’m of the mind that there is some trauma that isn’t fixable by a Memory Charm. I think that they’ve been doing Memory Charms on Mr. Roberts, at least, for weeks now, and his brain is already probably pretty frazzled from it. But trying to make you forget something as prolonged and awful as this probably, I would say, can’t be done. So do we agree on that point? And then my second question is, what kind of reparations could the Ministry do, or do we expect that they do, for this family in the wake of this?

Laura: They don’t do anything.

Andrew: [laughs] I was going to say put them in a nice cottage or something, by a lake.

Eric: They need to set these people up for life, absolutely. Give them an armed guard forever, all the gold in a Gringotts vault…

Andrew: But they’re Muggles; what are they going to do with all that? [laughs]

Eric: The equivalent of all that gold.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Eric: No, but really, put them somewhere, give them their wildest dreams, and cast all the best charms to keep them comfortable for at least a generation. That’s what they need to do.

Andrew: Yeah, something to keep them comfortable. I agree with that.

Laura: But they definitely didn’t, and wouldn’t.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: This is the Ministry’s responsibility.

Laura: I agree.

Eric: There’s nobody to fight for the Muggles and how they’ve been violated in this way.

Andrew: But this is all the more reason to just keep all Muggles far away from the Quidditch World Cup and future ones.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, because if something like this didn’t happen, something else would happen. Of course, you said they had to keep having their memories wiped, and as we said a couple of weeks ago, that probably grinds down your brain into mush. So yeah, just keep the Muggles away, period.

Micah: And this child is spinning 60 feet up in the air; his head is lolling from one side to the other. Andrew, when you were talking earlier about Ron, this is specifically what he referred to as being so sickening. And part of it, too, is – and Eric, I know you touched on this – is a child’s brain development affected by these types of Memory Charms, right? They’re not old enough to the point where their brain would even be fully developed, and they’re having an event as traumatic as this happen to them, and then their memory is supposed to be erased like it never happened?

Eric: Even if they don’t have the memory, their body has the memory. The body keeps…

Micah: Exactly.

Eric: They’re going to have PTSD. They’re going to be…

Micah: The body keeps score? Is that what you were going to say?

Eric: Yeah, yeah. In the quiet moments and things, they’re going to be on edge and not know why. And it’s because they’ve been attacked in this way when they were probably sleeping in their beds, completely unaware, and roused from their home and paraded through the streets. I said a couple of weeks ago that they were subdued a little bit magically or something. They’re not. They’re all conscious, and Mrs. Roberts in particular is entirely conscious this whole time, and that is so much worse than what I remembered. And you’re right, Andrew, too, there is a component here where it hits harder these days. We’re all talking about this, how today’s current climate, when Charlottesville and other events are so recent, really makes it feel and hit harder and feel more possible, like it could happen any day, that this kind of hate is still in this world.

Micah: Yeah. There’s a great line that trauma isn’t what happens to you; it’s what happens inside of you as a result of what happens to you.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: So the event itself is not the trauma. So these individuals, despite the event being wiped from their memory, are still going to have to deal with the after effects of this happening to them.

Laura: And not know why, right?

Micah: And not know why, yeah, exactly.

Andrew: This is our best Christmas episode ever!

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: On that note, let’s move on to some green lights in the sky!

Eric: Yay!

Andrew: Oh, Christmas lights!

Laura: Santa!

Eric: Do they twinkle? Are they leprechauns? Are the leprechauns back?

Micah: No, they went to sleep; they were drunk.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: So we move along in the chapter, and we’re now in a forest clearing type of area. And we hear the incantation “Morsmordre,” which is a mix of French words: “mort,” which means death, which we obviously know from Voldemort’s name, and “mordre,” which means to bite or sting. This is a very scary thing to see in the sky. It’s not something that has been seen for many years. And it scares not just the average witch or wizard that’s there; it also scares the Death Eaters, because they weren’t expecting that.

Eric: It shows the inner hypocrisy among all types of people as well, because none of them are really bold enough to send up the Dark Mark themselves. That’s a step too far. They’ll torture Muggles in front of large groups of people, but when the Mark is cast, that’s like saying his name, right? Death Eaters are terrified to say his name, and sending up the Dark Mark is the exact same thing. And it is a repudiation of the Death Eaters by Barty Crouch, Jr., who we know is the one that sends up the Dark Mark to tell them that they’re cowards and that they aren’t really his loyal followers.

Micah: Yeah, and I think it’s most comparable to the swastika. I think we all know that Hitler adopted it as the primary symbol for the Nazi Party in the 1920s. The murderous legacy of the Nazi regime, especially the Holocaust, permanently converted the swastika into a symbol of hate and anti-Semitism. And similar to how Nazis would wear a swastika band on their arm – this is something that we’re going to learn a little bit later on in this book – Death Eaters had the Dark Mark etched into their forearms.

Laura: And I’m glad that you made the comparison to the swastika for the Dark Mark, Micah, because obviously even today, as we’re seeing rates of anti-Semitism on the rise, we are seeing more and more cases of the swastika being used to inspire terror, even if people are just painting it somewhere.

Micah: Yeah, and both of these marks are meant to inspire fear, to convey hatred. And to your point, Laura, Arthur mentions, during the first wizarding war, how the Dark Mark would be cast above people’s homes where Death Eaters had murdered their families. And this is unsettlingly similar to homes or places of worship being marked with swastikas.

Eric: Yep, and just this idea… Arthur Weasley also says that half the Muggle killings during the first war, during Voldemort’s reign, were by people having fun, and that shows you just what a culture acceptance of tolerance to killing Muggles existed, especially among Voldemort’s followers. Like, “Hey, go out and do this. The Muggles deserve it. They’re not like you. They’re lesser than.” Voldemort is a lot more bigoted and a lot more dark in the pages of this book than he has ever been before for these kinds of reality checks.

Andrew: And it was disturbing to see Arthur recount like, “You had to have been there; you don’t understand how terrifying it was.” That was another really dark moment in this chapter. This is new to Ron and Harry; Hermione is the only one of the trio who understands how serious the Dark Mark is. But what I also found interesting about this is like, what is the right age to teach kids at Hogwarts about the Dark Mark? It seems they should definitely be educated on it, but then what is the right age? I feel like sooner rather than later, considering that only last happened a little over a decade ago.

Laura: I mean, look at our own educations. And there’s always an age appropriate way to teach these things, right? But I remember learning about the Holocaust in like, fifth grade for the first time.

Andrew: Yeah, pretty young.

Laura: And again, there is an age appropriate way to teach these things. I mean, I think we all read The Diary of Anne Frank, probably multiple times in school.

Eric: And Night.

Laura: And Night; that was another one. So yeah, it seems like there is a way to normalize talking about this horrible thing that happened in their society instead of trying to hide it.

Eric: In terms of what’s the right age to teach this, Harry just spent the entire last year of Hogwarts with a suspected Death Eater on the loose. That would have been the time for the whole government to start a curriculum on Death Eaters, what they were about, what they did, as a way of teaching and arming the students to suspect and locate him.

Andrew: Very good point.

Eric: What a great year to talk about Death Eaters, honestly, was last year.

Micah: Right. This goes to the whole complacency/complicity conversation we were having earlier. They look at Sirius as just being the one rogue agent, right? They don’t think broader, the fact that there could be more Death Eaters out there somewhere lurking around.

Laura: It’s scapegoating out of convenience, which we see from this Ministry all the time, and we’re going to see it later in this chapter.

Micah: It made me wonder – and we talked a little bit about this with Arthur – what it was like to have lived through Voldemort’s reign, what it must have been like to come back home. It had to be a constant thought in the mind of the wizarding world community when they would go out to work, or they would go out to the grocery store or anything, right? Just leave their house. When they came back, they didn’t know whether or not they were coming home to something awful. And it also reminded me of Slughorn. Remember how he behaves in the very early onset of Half-Blood Prince when Dumbledore and Harry come for him? He’s in hideout mode, and I’m wondering if that’s what a lot of witches and wizards had to do to stay safe from Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah, hiding out, dealing with constant uncertainty, probably not able to sleep at night…

Eric: Arthur specifically calls it “everyone’s worst fear, the very worst.”

Micah: And we also talked briefly about this last point here, whether the Dark Mark was cast to inspire fear in those that were at the Quidditch World Cup, or to inspire fear in the Death Eaters themselves, and I think it’s probably a bit of both. Right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah. But also, I’m wondering, is it inspired by Voldemort’s recent progress? Are there rumors that Voldemort is making some moves, so it’s time to get the band back together and start instilling some fear again? Because I thought we were led to believe that the Death Eaters are excited about what’s been going on with Voldemort, because we also hear Harry thinks to himself, “I just had this dream a couple days ago and now this is happening?” These things are related, he suspects.

Eric: Yeah, I can see how from an outside perspective, it seems like the Death Eaters are aware of and in direct planning with Voldemort. We know that they’re not; Voldemort is not directly interacting with any Death Eater besides Wormtail and Barty Crouch, Jr. until the end when he calls them to the graveyard. So it’s interesting, because in the end, Barty Crouch, Jr.’s casting of the Dark Mark begins a year-long terror campaign against his fellow Death Eaters. Between this Dark Mark that sends them scuttling – everyone else in the group sees all the people in hoods start running when they see it, Disapparating immediately. Then the Dark Marks on their arm start growing less faint, right, throughout the year. This is what Karkaroff eventually tells… I think it’s Snape. And so to be a Death Eater who is causing this issue with the Muggles at the Quidditch World Cup, to see the Dark Mark, to be scared by somebody who’s either Voldemort himself or somebody who’s more faithful cast that to scare you out of your wits, and then to see the Mark on your arm… you’re going to have to atone for your deceptions and your departure from Voldemort’s inner circle. And that’s pretty much what I think is said in this chapter, even, is that the people who got away, the people who claimed that they were under a guise or something, they all abandoned the cause. And so Barty Crouch, Jr. sees them as hypocrites.

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: And Barty was a fall guy, to some extent, right? He took the fall. So moving along here, switching gears a little bit. So we do get Winky found at the scene of the crime. She is Stupefied. And of course, she is being unjustly accused of casting the Dark Mark, and basically convicted in the court of public opinion by several of the folks who are onsite. And I wanted to start, though, going back, because we do see Winky earlier in the chapter trying to get away from the chaos. This is when Harry, Ron, and Hermione are running throughout the campsite. They run into Veela. They run into Stan Shunpike. There’s a lot of fun little moments. But Winky in particular, it’s noted several times that it appeared as if she was being held back by something invisible, and I wanted to start there. And I know, Laura, you had some comments on this.

Laura: I thought this was really brilliant, because we know what’s actually happening here is it’s Crouch Jr. under an Invisibility Cloak pulling her, right? But Harry remembers that Dobby physically could not disobey orders, so he makes the assumption that Winky is so terrified and trying to run away, but that because she can’t physically disobey orders and Barty Crouch, Sr. told her to stay put, presumably, she is fighting against herself to be able to run away. That’s actually not what’s happening.

Eric: Two different kinds of invisible forces. [laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: It’s a very fun misdirect, and you could potentially fool readers who really know their stuff as they’re reading for the first time, and yet there’s something else afoot.

Micah: Absolutely.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a perfect trick to have Harry see something he recognizes, and assume and be like, “Oh, we’ve seen this before.” We haven’t, but thank you for playing. [laughs]

Micah: Right. Yeah, it’s just great writing by J.K. Rowling. We see it, as you say, many times throughout the series. But wanted to talk a little bit about Barty Crouch, Sr. in this moment. So I guess to take a step back, as soon as the Dark Mark is cast, Ministry officials appear right away and they’re looking for the culprit. They blame Harry; at one point, they blame all three of them for having been responsible for this. They say, “The noise came from over there,” the Stupefy spell is fired, and we end up with Winky. But his treatment of Winky is really disgusting on so many levels. And Winky becomes, as this situation unfolds, his convenient culprit. And she is very much torn between protecting Barty Crouch, Jr., telling the truth – she gets very edgy and very nervous, almost to the point of revealing what was going on, but she doesn’t. And she also wants to keep her job. I mean, she’s essentially at times groveling at the feet of her master, as it’s actually said in the pages. And it’s just… this is a very sad situation to watch. This is really how house-elves are treated.

Andrew: Yeah, and it’s partly sad because these house-elves serve their masters, and you would expect that they would be getting some respect back after earning so much trust and putting in so much time over the years. And yet, they’re still treated like garbage.

Eric: Crouch is, in these moments, punishing Winky for getting caught, and punishing Winky for failing to keep his son in check. And he’s also in this incredibly impossible situation with the rest of the Ministry officials here, too, that he has to constantly defend his own record, when it’s suggested that he teaches his elf how to conjure the Dark Mark and all this other stuff. He says, “My record shows that…” He’s basically using the existence of his son, which nobody is talking about in this moment, the fact that he sent his own son to Azkaban prison where his son died, presumably, as a way to get out of suspicion for any wrongdoing on his part. And it’s cruel, because Winky is still the fall person for this, and so it’s just ugly.

Micah: It’s a flex, right? It’s a flex by Crouch, specifically in the direction of Amos Diggory. And yeah, it’s almost, Eric, it’s the indignation, “The gall you have to question my house-elf and my teachings of my house-elf that she would ever be able to do something like this.”

Eric: But he doesn’t let her off the hook because he’s still angry that she failed to keep his own son…

Micah: Well, there has to be some kind of justice here, right? It can’t just be that Winky gets away, even though the evidence suggests otherwise, and we’re going to talk about that, right? Harry, Ron, and Hermione heard a deep voice, presumably a male voice, casting Morsmordre, and only Voldemort’s followers know this spell and very few know how to cast it. And Winky is not in her right state of mind either; that’s clear. She is frazzled, she is stressed, she’s anxious. She’s had a full week of work. A full year of work.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And not been given much time off.

Eric: A full life of work. Time off?

Micah: This reminds me of the conversations we’ve had about the Ministry and how they don’t look at the evidence. They go for the convenient culprit, like they did with Hagrid in Chamber of Secrets, like they did with Buckbeak in Prisoner of Azkaban; they go at Winky here in Goblet of Fire.

Andrew: With the kids, like, why believe kids?

Eric: Well, and you know who’s doing that bullying? Amos Diggory is the one who’s really doing a majority of the questioning. I want to ask, what the hell is his deal? [laughs]

Micah: He’ll get his; don’t worry.

Andrew: Ooh. Merry Christmas, Amos.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. No, but it’s fascinating because I totally forgot he was even in this scene, but he’s actually the one doing the majority of the questioning of everyone. And he’s questioning Harry, and he actually annoys Arthur, and that is a treat to see Arthur even be like, “What are you on about? No, of course not.” It’s wild, but yeah, Amos Diggory, in whatever capacity, I think it’s… whether he’s the one that says he works in the Department of Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures or not?

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Like, okay, so that’s his edge? But yeah, the house-elf holding a wand is why he thinks he can prosecute her, I guess, in this moment.

Micah: And of all wands, it’s, of course, Harry’s wand.

Laura: Right.

Micah: And it’s funny; I was looking back at some of the notes from the first time we did this chapter, and there’s a great line in the show notes that said, “How does Harry forget his wand? It’s like your cell phone. You don’t leave home without it. You always know where it is.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Well, he loses it.

Micah: In the box, right?

Laura: He doesn’t actually lose it in the woods, right?

Eric: Right, he says he lost it in the woods, but he actually lost it long before that, because I think Barty Crouch snuck past Winky and took it out of his back pocket or something when they were…

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Right. But think about how long that is; I mean, several hours. And it’s from the time he leaves the box to the time this all happens. He doesn’t notice it’s missing?

Laura: Harry is not the most observant guy; I don’t know if y’all haven’t noticed this.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Harry needs an AirTag. Christmas gift for Harry. A stocking stuffer.

Eric: Needs an AirTag, aww.

Micah: And I was wondering, too, was the wand proficient in casting the spell because it’s the brother wand of Voldemort’s?

Eric: Ohh.

Laura: That’s why it came so easy.

Eric: I think it would run on the strength of Barty Crouch, Jr.’s conviction alone. I think he could get a toy wand to cast the real thing.

Andrew: Whoa.

Laura: The Fisher-Price wand?

Andrew: Now that’s a security nightmare.

Micah: All right, so a couple quick points here before we wrap up this chapter discussion, because it’s been a heavy one. I was curious, do we think Hermione growing up in the Muggle world informed her views on house-elves? And of course, we’re going to have a lot of time to talk about this in Goblet of Fire with SPEW. And as a contrast to that, do we attribute Ron’s views to his immaturity and his own upbringing within the wizarding world? Because we’ve talked a lot about how house-elves are the norm.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: There’s no reason for Ron to think otherwise, based on how he was raised. Now, certainly, his viewpoints can change as he grows older, and they do. But Hermione seems to have a very clear position on this, and I’m wondering if it’s because of what she learned growing up in the Muggle world, particularly with slavery.

Andrew: Exactly, partly that. You think the phrase “Hate is taught,” whether it’s racism, homophobia, etc. Ron has never known another way with house-elves. House-elves exists to serve, period. He’s never seen, evidently, resistance to house-elves in how they serve their masters. So then suddenly, Hermione comes and is like, “Whoa, wait a second,” then he evolves over time. But I don’t think it’s Ron being immature. I think that’s just how it’s always been in the wizarding world, so why think any different? We also have to keep in mind his age here.

Laura: Yeah, I agree. I think it’s just normal for Ron, like you were saying. And there are arguments to be made about what modern-day slavery looks like here in the real world, and you can maybe make the argument that because Hermione grew up in this Muggle world, some of those modern-day examples might not be things that would immediately stick out to her the way that house-elves do, because they’re very clearly reminiscent of a type of slavery that I think is oftentimes believed to be very old, a long time ago, so far back that it seems unimaginable that anyone would do it. And one, it’s really not that long ago, but two, it just doesn’t exist in this way in Hermione’s world. She’s never been exposed to it, so she knows it’s not normal.

Micah: Yeah, it’s a raw reaction. She’s experiencing it firsthand, and she calls it for what it is. And Arthur actually agrees with her; there’s a conversation between the two of them where he does agree with how Winky was treated by Barty Crouch, Sr., but he says to her, “This is not the time for that.” And just to end, this starts Hermione being very outspoken and critical, particularly of the Ministry. We saw a little bit of it, I think, in Prisoner of Azkaban with everything that went down with Buckbeak. We see more of it in this book. We definitely see it come through in Order of the Phoenix once Umbridge takes over. But this is laying the groundwork; she is not afraid to voice her opinion in front of Barty Crouch, Sr., Amos Diggory, Ludo Bagman, and Arthur – right, those are the main Ministry officials that are there – because she believes what she’s saying is right, and good for her.

Andrew: Gotta love her.

Laura: Yeah, and she breaks her usual alliance with Percy, too, we see. Percy tries to defend Barty Crouch, Sr.’s treatment of Winky and Hermione surprises him when she’s like, “Actually, no, that was not the move. That is not it.” And Percy is kind of taken aback; he’s not used to Hermione disagreeing with him, because they’re both such rule followers.

Eric: It’s such a crappy thing for Percy to do, because after all that’s happened, too, with his family, he’s lost any and all respect. And after Crouch himself got his name wrong recently, earlier today, he’s still obligated to defend Crouch and his honor, and it’s just so pathetic. I’m usually a Percy apologist, but I can’t get behind this. This is just extra pathetic, and it’s awful, and it’s only going to alienate him from his family.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: So I’ll kick off some odds and ends. We have a segment, if you will. A game. I don’t know what we call these little things besides sound effects. We have this one that we rarely use called “Evanesco that,” and I want to use “Evanesco that” on half of this chapter because there is way too much back and forth, going in circles, he-said-she-said-elf-said in this chapter, and I feel like it’s way overdone. It feels so redundant.

Eric: Yes, it does, but that’s how chaos happens in the real world, right? I think what’s being illustrated is even in a magical world, when you have so many talented wizards here, nobody can really actually know what happened in the sheer chaos of it.

Andrew: And don’t get me wrong, there’s critical moments in this chapter: learning about the Death Eaters, the Dark Mark, learning about Priori Incantatem, Hermione’s disgust over the treatment of house-elves… there’s plenty there, plenty big plot developments and all that, but I don’t know. Just reading this chapter a couple of times, it’s like, “All right, come on, we got it. Let’s keep moving here.” So anyway, Evanesco half of this chapter.

[“Evanesco that” sound effect plays]

Andrew: There’s no toilet effect in there.

Laura: I was like, is that a flushing toilet sound?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: No.

Eric: I refused to put that in there.

Micah: I like the paper rustling. I do agree with you, Andrew, but I will say, I think a lot of groundwork was laid.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: But yeah, enough of the back and forth. We don’t need that.

Andrew: Thank you. Look, there’s going to be enough back and forth at holiday parties this holiday season, am I right? This is a holiday episode.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, God, the back and forth. Yeah, you’re right; it’s not Christmas without a back and forth. I think it’s just meant to illustrate the specifics, because it’s actually masterfully done, the way Winky has to lie to save Crouch Jr., but she has to lie to Crouch Sr. to do it, and all the while asserting that she did not cast the Dark Mark, which she didn’t. It’s really masterful, how she’s able to… and it does her no favors, but the writing, the dialogue there that happens is actually clever.

Micah: So a few other odds and ends. It’s noted at the beginning of the chapter that Fred and George have big plans for their winnings.

Andrew: Love it.

Micah: I don’t know if that’s really foreshadowing.

Andrew: It’s nice to see it teased in advance.

Micah: It’s a tease.

Eric: We’ve already had a chapter named “Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes,” actually, so there you go.

Micah: We did.

Andrew: And they were big plans.

Micah: Do we have a sound effect for a tease?

Andrew: No.

Micah: We do get a mention of Beauxbatons and Madame Maxime. They are named dropped by a couple of students who seemingly have lost Madame Maxime.

Eric: It sounds like there was a field trip and Madame Maxime took a bunch of her students to the Quidditch World Cup, which is really cool.

Micah: She’s cool.

Laura: That is cool.

Micah: Stan Shunpike, trying to court some Veela with his friends. Harry comes across that in the forest.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And then we mentioned this: Amos uses Priori Incantato, which is the actual spell. I think the action is Priori Incantatem. [laughs] So another Diggory will be a part of that a little bit later on in the book.

Eric: Yeah, well, the other thing is when the Dark Mark comes out and diminishes, it’s said it’s a ghost of a spell, and that specifically is very foreshadowing to the other ghosts that come out at the end.

Micah: That’s very true.

Laura: Ooh, I love that.

Micah: Yeah, I like that.

Eric: Let’s play the foreshadow sound effect again, because we have had a couple there.

[Foreshadowing sound effect plays]

Eric: There we go. I get cheered up every time I hear that.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That was a loaded chapter, so I appreciate everybody going through it with me. And hopefully the next chapter is a little bit more cheery as we start off 2024.

Andrew: Yes, better we got this done at the end of 2023, I suppose. Now it’s out of the way.

Eric: The next chapter is called “Mayhem at the Ministry,” so I don’t know how much cheerier it’s going to be.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: But at least we’re not at the Ministry to witness it.

Andrew: There’s probably going to be a lot of mayhem in 2024 as well, so in a way, it’s fitting.

Laura: And we have to remember what book we’re reading right now. There’s not a whole lot of cheer in this book.

Eric: Well, it’s not Book 5.

Laura: Oh, I mean, that one gets bad too. But this one, you’re dealing with… well, I won’t take up much more of our airtime, but you’re dealing with some pretty heavy themes for the first time in the series.

Eric: Like dragons?

Laura: Voldemort coming back, that’s a big one.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Right.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, let’s move on to MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give my MVP to the phrase “hither and thither,” used in the line, “Harry felt himself being pushed hither and thither by people whose faces he could not see.” It was a dark scene, but I was like, “Haha, hither and thither.” I just thought it was a really funny phrase.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Can I also just say, though, I don’t understand the decision to split up. Like, “Okay, Harry, Ron, Hermione, you go by yourselves.” What? I know they…

Andrew: Yeah, this is a Christmas episode. We’re all about being together for the holidays.

Eric: So who suggests that? Who’s our least valuable person this week?

Micah: It was Arthur, who’s also my MVP… [laughs]

Eric: Ah, okay.

Micah: … but we can give him a pass on that.

Eric: [laughs] So why does Arthur get your MVP?

Micah: Because of his negotiation skills amongst Ministry officials, putting Amos in his place… he kind of wrapped up that situation; it was getting… to Andrew’s point earlier, there’s too much talking going on. Arthur was…

Andrew: It’s too much hithering and thithering!

Micah: Exactly.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And you know what? Dad kept everybody safe, okay? He kept everybody safe at the end of the day. There were a few cuts and bruises. I think Charlie or Bill’s shirt was ripped. That’s probably a fanfic.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He did that to himself.

Micah: [laughs] He did it to himself.

Eric: Arthur’s son Ron had a great line when they came across the Veela and Ron said, “Did you know that I’ve built a broomstick that’ll fly to Jupiter?” And I don’t know; I know Ron is a little under the spell of the Veela, but that’s a brilliant line. I think that’s a great brag.

Laura: I wanted to give mine to Hermione’s early justice arc. I’m really excited to see this develop over the next couple of books.

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com or by using our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Next week, [gasps] well, no new episode next week, but we’ll see you in 2024, and we’ll be releasing two bonus MuggleCasts over the break to keep you entertained. And hopefully you enjoy those and then you pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, or you tap into the show on Apple Podcasts and subscribe there, because both platforms will be offering bonus MuggleCast in the new year. By the way, there’s a Patreon banner within Spotify as well; you can tap in and then get our audio benefits right in Spotify after you pledge.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: The final Quizzitch question of 2023 was: From which book does Hermione learn about Beauxbatons Academy of Magic? And the correct answer was An Appraisal of Magical Education in Europe. I don’t know why she didn’t find out about it from Hogwarts, A History; you would think that there would be a section for all the other schools, right? Anyway, I’m feeling generous, so for Christmas, which one of you would like to get to read the Quizzitch winners?

Laura: Micah, I think you should read it because one of these here is for you. [laughs]

Micah: All right. Correct answers were submitted by Martin Miggs, the Mad Muggle; Justice for Winky; Professor Stumblemore; Fleur’s Hot Veela Grandmuzzer; Severus Snape’s grease-clogged drain; Did you know in French Hufflepuff is Poufsouffle?!; George Weasley’s Surviving Ear; Coriolanus Snow… is that a reference to The Hunger Games?

Laura: It’s a Hunger Games thing.

Andrew: Stop delaying; get to the next one. [laughs]

Micah: All right. Micah, will you marry me?

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: You’ve got to answer them. [laughs] No.

Micah: Sure.

Eric: Oh.

Laura: That was easy.

Andrew: It’s a Christmas miracle!

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Hot Dark Mark Pick-up lines; I’ll Show You Mine If You Show Me Yours…

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Nice reference to…

Eric: The movie.

Micah: … Karkaroff And Snape, yeah. Elizabeth K; MuggleCast is the only… or no, wasn’t…? Sorry, I’ll go back to that.

Eric: It was Barty Crouch, Jr. at the end.

Micah: It’s Barty Crouch, Jr. at the end, sorry. Elizabeth K; MuggleCast is the only thing keeping me sane in this Muggleworld; Buff Daddy; Melissa; and my submission, which didn’t make it: It’s a bird, it’s a plane, no, it’s the Robertses.

Laura: Ooh.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: That’s just mean.

Eric: Okay, you never get… I thought that was a little extra traumatic to read, so I didn’t include it.

Micah: Oh.

Laura: Well, Micah was the one reading the correct answers this week, so… [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, he did get it correct, though.

Micah: Next week’s Quizzitch question… [laughs] next year’s…

Eric: First Quizzitch question of the new year: What did Rita Skeeter once call Bill Weasley in an interview with Gringotts curse-breakers? This is a very specific one, but I like it. Thank you, Meg, for submitting that one.

Andrew: Visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and to contact us. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, please tell a friend about the show, when you see them over the holidays. We would also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app; that would be a great gift for us. Thank you very much. We love reading those reviews. All right, that does it for this week’s episode and this year of MuggleCast. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Safe travels over the holiday season. Safe consumption of holiday delights. You all will be receiving cookies from me if you haven’t already.

Micah: Aww.

[Eric gasps]

Laura: I got mine today.

Andrew: Wonderful, wonderful.

Micah: You mean from Pat.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Um, okay, well, somebody put them in boxes and mailed them, and that person was me, so… [laughs]

Eric: Thanks, Pat.

Laura: Yeah, I wanted to call out I got the cookies, and then a couple of days ago, I also got a really sweet package from Eric.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: I did too. Thank you, Eric. I’d say what Eric got me, but I’m not sure I should say it on this family friendly program, but thank you.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s not safe for MuggleCast, yeah, yeah.

Laura: Mine is very wholesome. I got a Christmas card from Ron Weasley and a camping book and a wilderness survival book, because I talked about loving camping.

Eric: Since you like camping.

Laura: It was great.

Eric: Yeah, I actually consulted Andrew on that and he said it would be a great gift, so we all helped. We all came together. Don’t we love each other so much?

Laura and Micah: We do.

Andrew: Well, I’m still waiting for my gift from Laura and Micah, but I think we all do.

Micah: Oh.

Laura: Well…

Eric: [laughs] Okay, I love you all very much.

Andrew: I’m just kidding.

Laura: We are doing a Secret Santa gift exchange on our other show Millennial this weekend, so I’m not saying your gift is coming from me, but you will be getting a gift in the Secret Santa exchange. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, perfect. That’s perfect.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Laura got Andrew, everybody. [laughs]

Laura: Maybe.

Micah: And speaking of Secret Santas, I did just want to give a big thank you to Shannon for this really awesome Three Broomsticks beer glass that I will certainly be utilizing this holiday season. And this was all part of the annual Secret Santa we do over on Facebook with our patrons.

Eric: That’s one of my favorite logos of all time, the Three Broomsticks logo with the three brooms that are in a triangle. I think that’s just…

Micah: And it says established 1621.

Andrew: Feels authentic. That’s cool. Thank you, everybody, for listening; thank you again for another great year. We’ll be back in the new year with many more episodes of MuggleCast to come and hopefully many exciting developments with the TV show and theme park and everything else. Check out that 2024 preview again at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. I think that’s it. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew, hithering and thithering one last time in 2023.

Eric: I’m Eric, riding on that broomstick that goes to Jupiter.

Micah: I’m Micah, just excited that I survived the Quidditch World Cup.

Laura: And I’m Laura, and I love you all.

Andrew and Micah: Aww.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric: Aw, Laura had the best one.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #638

 

MuggleCast 638 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #638, Nothing About Quidditch Is Fair (GOF Chapter 8, The Quidditch World Cup)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Grab your Omnioculars and your earplugs, because this week we’re diving into Goblet of Fire Chapter 8, “The Quidditch World Cup.”

Eric: Wooo!

Andrew: First of all, though, thank you to everybody who listens to MuggleCast on Spotify and tagged us in their Wraps. Their Wrappeds? Something like that.

Eric: That second one is correct.

Andrew: We were the top podcast for 1,100 listeners, we were in the top five podcasts for 3,400 people, and we were in the top 10 for 4,800 people.

Laura: Wow.

Andrew: Our top episode of the year – I almost forgot this happened this year – Episode 606, “A Harry Potter TV Reboot is Coming!?”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: And we theorized and that was a lot of fun. Definitely the biggest news item of the year, right?

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: [laughs] Right at the beginning.

Andrew: And! We couldn’t do this show without listener support. And to thank listeners, we do two bonus MuggleCast installments on our Patreon every month. These bonus MuggleCast installments will also be coming to the Apple Podcast paid subscription, by the way, starting in 2024. Later this week, we’re going to have a new bonus MuggleCast in which we are looking at 2023 in review, and we’re also going to look ahead to 2024 to see what we can maybe expect for the fandom. I thought this was a slow year, but it actually wasn’t when you look at it at a bird’s eye view. Things did happen.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: It went fast for me. [laughs] I feel like, another year is gone already?

Micah: I’m waiting for Andrew’s impression.

Andrew: [imitating Dumbledore] “Another year, gone.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: I was saving it for next week.

Micah: You’re right, though. Between the announcement of the show, Hogwarts Legacy… those two by themselves are big enough, considering we’re not living in a Fantastic Beasts world anymore.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We’ll talk about that, too, in this bonus MuggleCast. So that’ll be available at Patreon.com/MuggleCast this week.

Laura: Fantastic who? I don’t know her.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: It was a fantastic Who. Catherine Tate and David Tennant are back. I thought it was fantastic.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, excited for you Whovians. And lastly, don’t forget the MuggleCast overstock store is open; there’s still time to order a MuggleCast gift, or you could ask a loved one to order one for you. Visit MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com to purchase a MuggleCast T-shirt, beanie – which Laura is wearing tonight. How comfy is the beanie tonight, Laura?

Laura: It’s so cozy. It’s very, very cold tonight. And I will also confess, the main reason that I’m wearing it is because we are on camera for this livestream, and I need to wash my hair. It’s a little bit greasy, so this hat is the perfect accessory for tonight’s episode. Makes me look more put together than I am.

Eric: [laughs] Laura, I know that even if you had washed your hair, you would have heavily considered wearing that lovely beanie, wouldn’t you have?

Laura: I would. I would have. Definitely for the finale episode of the year.

Eric: Ooh, yeah.

Andrew: It’s soft, it’s warm; it’s a thick, durable beanie. We’re very happy with it. Actually, I’m currently wearing an In-N-Out hoodie; however, underneath you can see I’m wearing the beige MuggleCast T-shirt.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Because I, too, am cold!

Micah: Looks like you were about to expose something there, Andrew.

Andrew: [laughs] No. We’ve made great quality gifts over the years and now’s the opportunity for those of you who aren’t patrons, or maybe those of you who missed out on these gifts, to get them. We highly recommend, though, ordering by December 15, and we will get it in the mail for Christmas. At least, we think; USPS does say their deadline for putting things in the mail to have them arrive before Christmas is December 16, so we will do our best to get these to you before Christmas if you are aiming for that.

Micah: This reminded me that this episode is the penultimate episode of the year. I forget whose favorite word on the show that is; it might be Eric’s.

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: No, it’s mine.

Micah: Oh, it’s yours.

Andrew: I think so.

Micah: You can share the word.

Eric: We like the word.

Andrew: So again, MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com. And by purchasing one of these items, not only are you going to love it, but you’re also supporting the show, so we really appreciate that.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So those are our announcements. And now, let’s get to Chapter by Chapter. And this week, in our penultimate episode – I love that word – we’re discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 8, “The Quidditch World Cup.” And we’ll start, like we always do, with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: Athletes…

Andrew: … compete…

Laura: … vigorously…

Micah: … against…

Eric: … their…

Andrew: [laughs] … formidable…

Eric: Ooh!

Laura: … opponents.

Micah: Wow.

Eric: Yeah!

Andrew: Yes! Yes!

Laura: Look at us!

Micah: This is… penultimate.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Eternal glory has just been gotten.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Andrew: I saved you, Laura.

Laura: Thank you, because I was like, “Oh man, this is going to be rough.” But no, Andrew, you saved that at the end. That’s a great sentence.

Andrew: Hooray for adjectives!

Eric: Hooray.

[Laura laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: So that leads us into discussing this chapter. And I have to say, I think that the environment is perfectly captured, that of a large sporting event. It is lit. I mentioned earplugs at the top of show – or wrote that for the intro – because they will come in handy. There is so much going on here, and continuing the trend of what we’ve seen in the early chapters of Goblet of Fire, the wizarding world continues to expand. And Harry and crew get up to, it turns out, the top most box, the toppermost of the poppermost box of the Quidditch World Cup. And there they find what Harry thinks is Dobby, and he calls out to him, and it turns out it’s not Dobby. We learn more about house-elves through Winky the house-elf, who it turns out is Barty Crouch’s own elf, who says that she is there to save him his seat. And it’s really through Winky that we get this whole mini part of this chapter, which speaks to classism and other thoughts. So what were our first impressions? Do we remember back what we thought of Winky?

Laura: Well, rereading this, I definitely cringed at Harry’s automatic assumption that it was Dobby.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: But Laura, it’s okay because she knows Dobby. They all know each other, right? [laughs]

Laura: And then that was the other thing I was like, “Oh my God.” The cultural cringe is embedded in the text, and you can say that for any, I think, phenomenon, movie, book, whatever.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: But the cultural cringe, the unconscious bias, if you will, is just so present in moments like these. It was very hard to read.

Andrew: It was exciting to hear from another house-elf, but I am confused by Harry’s reaction that he would just assume it was Dobby, and it made me wonder, is Dobby the only other house-elf Harry has seen till this moment? Ron says a few pages later – or actually, at the end of this scene – he’s like, “Oh, so that’s what a house-elf is.” So if Harry has seen one between Dobby and Winky, then it wasn’t with Ron. I guess he hasn’t. But it’s still strange to be like, “Oh, a house-elf. That must be Dobby.”

Laura: Right, there’s only one.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Does all the cooking, all the cleaning…

Eric: Yeah, well, that shows what the whole buildup is going to be to house-elves working at Hogwarts, which we know is a huge subplot in this book with Hermione’s arc. And really, it’s surprising that none of the children in their three or four years asked the question, “Where do my clothes go when they get cleaned?” or, “Who takes them?” or anything like that. So it’s interesting that this is all of these 14-year-olds’ first experience with a house-elf.

Andrew: “Who’s making the food I’m eating every day at Hogwarts?”

Laura: Well, and I’ll be honest: Up until the subject of house-elves was really dug into in this book, as a reader, as a child, I always assumed everything was just magic.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Laura: It was all just magic, and things just kind of appeared, and your clothes were just clean when you needed them to be. And I think that in and of itself is a commentary on social systems that rely upon help to complete all of their goings-on around the house. And this idea that the help is seen and not heard, which is very insidious. So I think there’s definitely a commentary going on there where it’s like, the kids were ignorant to it; so were we as readers, because we just weren’t in the position to wonder, “Who is doing this?” And we assumed that it was just magic. And I think in the real world, people can treat it that way. They just expect, if they’re of the social class to have hired help like that… depending – I’m not blanketing here – but just depending, there can be that social element of just expectation that that work is beneath you, and that is somebody else’s job.

Eric: I’m glad you brought up the issue of class, because if you look at the other people that are sharing this top box, it’s the Malfoy family and Crouch himself, Ludo Bagman and Fudge, the Minister of Magic, in fact, the Bulgarian Minister of Magic are there. The Weasleys are a huge long shot compared to all of their much, much higher class compatriots here.

Andrew: But as we now know, it was because Arthur built Ludo a boat in his time of need…

Eric: Yes.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … and now he is a member of the upper class.

Micah: What you pointed out here, Eric, is that it’s interesting that there’s a connection of sorts between Winky and Dobby, right? There seems to be some kind of familiarity that exists between the two of them when Harry does mistake her for Dobby. And I’ve always thought of house-elves as being this close-knit community where everybody knows each other. And maybe that’s a mistake on my part, but then I was thinking even further, and we’re talking about, at least in this case, two pure-blood families in the Malfoys and the Crouches. And just knowing how that has come across in the series to date, we would assume that these pure-blood families would have known each other for decades, right? Maybe even centuries. So naturally, their house-elves would have interacted at some point, assuming that Dobby’s family served the Malfoys for generations; Winky’s family did the same. So I think that there would be some kind of relationship that exists between the two of them. Dobby is certainly more of the friendly type. But yeah, that’s what came to mind for me.

Laura: I think that’s fair. I do.

Andrew: Yeah, you can imagine them running into each other at family holiday parties, the Crouches and the Malfoys, or a Ministry party. I don’t know. You could definitely see social events where the Malfoys and the Crouches are in the same place and then that’s when you see the house-elves, because if Winky is showing up to this…

Micah: Now, is she at the far end of the box? Because I can only imagine if Lucius had to sit down next to her what that would have been like.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: She is at the far end of the box.

Micah: She is, okay.

Eric: There’s one seat between her and the wall. But yeah, Winky’s whole behavior speaks to this lower class, especially what Laura was saying about the help and “seen, not heard.” She’s hiding her face. She’s covering her own face. She’s kind of afraid to move it away. Even when she’s engaged with conversation with Harry, she seems to behave as though it would be everyone’s desire for her not to be seen or interacting with them. She’s very downtrodden. But she yet extols this whole virtue of house-elves having this station, that it is their lot, because when the conversation is all about Dobby, she’s talking about how crazy Dobby has gotten and how his freedom is “going to his head.”

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: Harry’s natural question is “How’s Dobby?” She said she knows him. And Winky has some opinions.

Laura: Yeah. And I think, to your point, Eric, about the station that Winky feels like she possesses or that she occupies, the reason she’s covering her face is because she’s terrified of heights. And she’s being forced to reserve Mr. Crouch’s seat in this box, way up at the top of the stadium, and she’s terrified, but she also feels like she has to. She thinks that she’s beholden to that. And that speaks directly to the point that you bring up about her saying “Dobby is getting a big head about himself, he is flying far above his station, and he needs to find a good family and settle down. I’m afraid that he is going to have to go in front of the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures.” And it is such an interesting contrast to what we’re going to see with Hermione’s character arc throughout the rest of this book, in observing, as Winky points out to Harry here, that the question of freedom for house-elves is not as black and white as maybe he perceived it to be when he freed Dobby, because it was easy for Harry, a 12-year-old, to free Dobby, because it’s the right thing to do. Why wouldn’t you? But this book really starts to open up some of the more complicated, messy questions, like what contingencies do you have in place for the backlash that an elf is going to receive when they are freed? What contingencies are in place to help that elf be successful and prosper in a society that does not accept the concept of free elves? And it’s really interesting because we see Hermione go all the way to the extreme, very similar to where Harry was a couple years ago, being like, “Yeah, freedom is obviously right,” and we all agree with her, “Yeah, it is,” but there are also a lot of questions and some really valid concerns that I think any house-elf like Winky would have for “What does freedom mean for me?”

Micah: Yeah. The only comparison I can really think of: It’s almost similar to when you have a domesticated animal and it’s released out into the wild. And if it’s not slowly integrated back into the wild, it is inevitably going to die because its ability to adapt is so limited. And I think we see a lot of that with Winky later on in Goblet of Fire when she is released by Crouch. Dobby less so. I think Dobby is a trendsetter.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I mean, how many house-elves have been set free and go about trying to get work? And not only get work, but wanting to be compensated? I mean, God forbid he get compensated for his work.

Laura: I know.

Andrew: He’s a man who knows what he wants.

Eric: It’s skilled labor. It has a value, it has a monetary value, and he’s asking for it. Yeah.

Micah: And I think it’s fascinating. And we can talk more about this later as we start to meet more house-elves in the series, but in both Winky and in Kreacher, you have two households that were fiercely loyal to younger members of the family in Crouch, Jr. and in Regulus. And then on the flip side, you have somebody like Dobby who is anything but loyal to the Malfoys, so just looking at the behavior of all these different house-elves and how they’ve probably grown to respond to their families over time is just so interesting.

Eric: Yeah, I’m thinking of Hokey the house-elf as well…

Micah: That’s another one.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: … wasn’t that Hepzibah Smith’s? Because she has a drinking problem, and her house-elf obviously is duty-bound and honor-bound to help her, but then it takes a toll in an entirely different mental… well, I think those three house-elves, Kreacher, Dobby – well, Winky and Hokey are the perfect spectrum of how that all works out. But yeah, just the idea that Dobby would ask for pay. Harry is like, “He should; why shouldn’t he be compensated?” But it’s just this ignorant thing of like, “Well, the world doesn’t necessarily work that way.” I’m sure anyone would want to be freed from working for the Malfoys, though, who, by the way, show up minutes after this conversation, which is so… like you said, asking the question if Lucius had to sit next to Winky. What would he think? What would he say?

Andrew: Don’t bring any socks near her.

Eric: Yeah.

Laura: [laughs] I want to point out something that Justin is pointing out in the Discord, which is that Dobby, his payment that he wants for providing services is not money. It’s socks.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And this, I think, on its face can come across as kind of, oh, a charming, quirky character-ism, but it is another symptom of this overall cultural problem that even when Dobby does obtain his freedom, the concept of monetary gain just isn’t the first thing his mind goes to when he thinks about charging for his services.

Eric: Oh, that’s a great point. [laughs] Just thinking about the time that I worked for MuggleNet for three years and got a hat out of it.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: It’s more than most.

Laura: You were like, “You could have at least given me a sock!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, I wanted the hat. I wanted the hat.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I think it was Notre Dame.

Micah: You did better than some, Eric. Just throwing that out there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Some of us wrote a book and didn’t get anything.

Eric: Oh my God.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Is there a larger question to deal with? We talked about the higher class occupants of this booth. But there’s this tense moment between Arthur and Lucius, and the Minister is there; Fudge very happily proclaims that Lucius just gave this bunch of gold to St. Mungo’s, and Arthur is forced, because of professional courtesy, to say “Oh, nice.” But then Lucius turns around and completely insults Arthur, asking him what he did to get these good seats, and selling his house surely wouldn’t be enough. And it’s just this complete classism that’s happening here, coupled with the house-elf thing that’s going on in this otherwise very action-packed chapter. What is this chapter trying to say about these themes, really?

Micah: I mean, to me, it’s not something that is really uncommon in the Muggle world too, right? We’ve probably all seen things like this or maybe even experienced it ourselves. There’s this really strong feeling that the Weasleys are just visiting a place that the Malfoys regularly frequent.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: And I feel for them in this moment in particular. But I will say, in terms of if we were to take the 10,000 foot view of this and spin it more to a positive end, I think it can show the unifying aspect of sport, right? That’s something that is often talked about, because you’re able to bring people together from so many different walks of life to enjoy a game like this. And if you look at… Eric, you rattled off who was in the box earlier, but you have two pure-blood families in the Weasleys and the Malfoys, three if you want to count the Crouches; you have a half-blood in Harry; a Muggle-born in Hermione; you have a house-elf in Winky; and you have a couple of Ministers for Magic and other dignitaries. It’s really a odd group of individuals to all have in one place. [laughs] But they are all there to watch the Quidditch World Cup and they don’t get into fisticuffs, really; they just kind of put their differences aside and enjoy the match.

Andrew: Another lesson of this chapter is that you actually can buy your way into high profile events like this.

Micah: Of course.

Andrew: We hear from Fudge that Lucius bought his way in. He didn’t say those words, but he said, “Lucius has just given a very generous contribution to St. Mungo’s.”

Eric: Right.

Andrew: Does Lucius suddenly care about the hospital? No, he wanted to buy his way in to the Quidditch World Cup. That’s all he did that for.

Eric: Just like he did with the brooms to get Draco on the Quidditch team.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Bribing is totally… because they’re there as Fudge’s guests, personal guests, as a result of that donation. So there you go.

Andrew: Yes. But that area’s kind of glossed over; that’s one of those things you might read the first time as a kid and you don’t really notice it, but then after, you’re like, “Oh, okay, he just bought his way in. That’s all that was.”

Eric: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don’t blame early eagle-eyed fans for thinking that there was then some kind of untoward lean to St. Mungo’s. If Lucius Malfoy is their biggest patron, which is not said that he is, but if the kind of people that are donating there are Death Eaters, former and present, then you should question whether the hospital exists to make people better or not.

Micah: Or so they can sneak things in later on in the series.

Eric: That doesn’t bode well, I don’t think.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No, it doesn’t. Well done.

Laura: I don’t know. I think we can see examples even in today’s day and age of people, whose morals we might question, throw their money around to good causes to make them look like maybe they have better manners than they do. And I mean, also, I have to imagine… I don’t know what taxes look like in the wizarding world…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … but that’s a big thing people do, at least here in the States, is make some pretty massive charitable contributions for the tax write-off.

Micah: Yeah, and the Malfoys are definitely there – at least Lucius is – as a status symbol, whereas the Weasleys are there, Harry is there, to enjoy the match, right? Harry and Ron in particular are just super excited to even have this opportunity. I’m sure they wouldn’t care where they sat in that stadium; just the fact that they’re there is exciting.

Eric: So I want to talk about the actual Quidditch World Cup game, and something that stood out to me absolutely is the complete mayhem caused during this game by the mascots that are brought here. I mean, it’s something I, of course, remember from the match, but something that really takes the front seat and lasts the whole match. I mean, the pandemonium that is set off by both the leprechauns making rude gestures with their formations and the Veela just by their nature, and by some of their actions that we’re going to detail, really are disastrous. It’s like if the Chicago Bears brought actual bears to a football game and let them loose on the field.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Seriously, it’s nuts, the idea that these wizarding teams have creatures that are emblematic of their home country, but which do not necessarily behave themselves and are allowed to basically storm the field.

Micah: I’m so glad you said that, Eric, though, because not all mascots are just dressed up in costume and cute little furry things that kids want to take pictures with. They are actual animals in the Muggle world, so this isn’t that much of a stretch, and we get careless too. And I put a video – we can put it in the show notes – of Bevo from the University of Texas, and Uga, who is a bulldog from the University of Georgia. They met a couple of years ago in the Sugar Bowl, and Bevo was not having any of Uga, let’s just say that. I don’t know if y’all want to watch the video.

Eric: I can’t wait to.

Andrew: I watched it.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: It’s hard to watch because the commentators are like, “Oh, man, that was so cool! I want to watch that happen again.” But the dog’s life was threatened!

Eric: Not Bevo and Uga at the Sugar Bowl! [laughs] I love sports.

Laura: As someone who grew up in Georgia, to hear someone that I’m friends with in another state mention Uga did something to my brain.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: It was just weird. It was a weird worlds colliding moment. [laughs]

Micah: But what’s so great about it is you literally think it would have been the other way around, but it’s actually… you would think it would be the bulldog going after the longhorn, but it’s actually the longhorn going after the bulldog.

Andrew: Oh, that doesn’t surprise me at all. [laughs]

Eric: So imagine that you have any of these fantastic beasts – or magical beings or creatures, however they choose to classify or are classified arbitrarily by wizards – imagine those being let loose on a good day, not in the most prime sporting event of every four years or whatever it is. And it’s just complete pandemonium. In fact, I’m blown away by the safety concerns, which shouldn’t, at this point, surprise any of us that the wizards are so carefree about safety. But the thing about the Veela in particular, as Bulgaria’s mascots that they bring there, the Veela have an effect, an immediate entrancing effect on presumably every male in the stadium, and nobody was adequately prepared for it. The big thing that happens, to me, to point out is that Harry feels that he immediately needs to do something impressive. These are the most beautiful, questionably human women that he’s ever seen in his life, and he needs to impress them. How is he going to do it? Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that he has to jump out of the top box at the Quidditch World Cup and plummet into the stadium below. He doesn’t have his broom with him. He doesn’t know the Summoning Charm. He has to…

Andrew: He turns into a zombie. He’s just like, [in a droning voice] “Lady. Beautiful lady.”

Eric: Yeah, and when he comes to, Hermione is pulling him back because one of his legs is against the wall of the box. He literally had gotten to his feet and jumped up. And it’s like, “If they stop singing and dancing, something terrible is going to happen.” That’s all Harry knows in his mind. Multiply that by 50 or 60,000, assuming the genders of the men in the audience. Wow, this is insane.

Micah: Look, I mean, Barty Crouch, Jr. could have ended it all right there. We wouldn’t even have needed to have a fourth book.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Given him an extra push. [laughs]

Laura: It made me wonder if it was insinuating that while Veela in this universe definitely target men – right, men are the ones that are attracted to them – I think it’s amiss that we didn’t see any women getting a little bit flustered, if you will. [laughs] But I think it’s interesting because we see Mr. Weasley grinning about this because he knows what’s going on, and it feels like a commentary maybe on teenage hormones. But given the vast reaction from the rest of the stadium, it makes me wonder if it also is a commentary on drunkenness. I have to imagine being at a big sporting event like this, a lot of these people are drunk, and when you reach that level of inebriation, the filter between your brain and your mouth kind of goes away; you lose all inhibition. And I think that would probably make a grown man more likely to react to the Veela in this way. It’s a vulnerability thing, in a way. They don’t think they’re vulnerable, but they are.

Andrew: And Kelsey in the Discord said, “Is it only straight men who are affected? Would Dumbledore be affected by the Veela? What about lesbians?” So there is a line or two from Hermione when she’s seeing what Harry is doing, and she says, “Harry, what are you doing?” And then a couple lines later, she pulls Harry back and she goes, “Honestly.” So it doesn’t seem to be affecting her and presumably most straight women there. Lesbians, presumably, yes, it would be affecting them.

Eric: This is the next generation Thestral test that we play on the crowd of figuring out who can see them, who can’t, who would be affected by Veela, who wouldn’t…

Andrew: Yeah. Dumbledore would be affected, but he would just be going, “Yas, queen, yas, work it.”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Honestly, this chapter… and I love whenever we ask the question, “Is it analogous to” sports fans or things like that. Is this a commentary on how aggressive men get at sporting matches? Possibly, right? I for one was thinking, bringing these very attractive female-presenting creatures out, is that a commentary on cheerleading? On cheerleaders? And how the Dallas Cowboys have an attractive bunch of… I mean, they’re known for having an attractive group of cheerleaders. But the other thing that it made me think of was Greek mythology.

Andrew: Ooh. Cheerleaders in Greek mythology.

Eric: [laughs] I decided to look up the Veela and figure out where the origins might be, and it turns out that Veela are actually very real. “The word ‘Veela’ is an Anglicization of the Slavic term ‘Vila.’ Veela are described as fairy or nymph-like creatures in Slavic mythology, who live in bodies of water and have power and the ability over storms. They may be the ghosts of women who drowned, especially those who were betrayed by their lovers.” And so I’m sensing a theme here that they may be similar to either harpies or sirens from Greek myth, if you guys know your Odyssey.

Laura: I was thinking about the siren comparison for sure.

Micah: Yeah, especially given how the men behave.

Eric: Yeah, harpies are more birdlike, but later in the match, the Veela sprout wings, so there is something birdlike about them. But the sirens in particular… Arthur Weasley says, “Cover your ears” later in the game. Everyone is covering their ears to prevent the effects. Odysseus actually has wax that he puts in his ears, and he commands all of his men wear it and he prevents the… he ties himself to the mast of his ship, so that he doesn’t… and he forbids all of his men from rowing to shore, despite how he’s going to command them to untie him. So it’s a big deal to avoid these things. And yet, they’re thrust upon an unsuspecting populace in the whole people of… I just think some mascots maybe should have been banned.

Andrew: Yeah, well, I guess just what bugs me – and Micah and I have a point to tag team – the point of the Veela and the leprechauns almost seems to be winning the crowd over to get the crowd on the side of the team that the mascots are representing. The Veela, it’s making all the men H-word.

Micah: Horny.

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: You can say it. That’s an okay word.

Andrew: And then with the leprechauns, they’re paying the crowd! They’re paying the crowd off with gold!

Eric: With golf ball-sized gold. [laughs] I mean, you know how much damage hail does?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: The audience is hit with falling gold coins.

Andrew: And then Ron is paying Harry back the debts that he is owed. [laughs]

Eric: This is chaos. Both teams’ mascots are only bound to cause such chaos. And obviously, it’s funny. It’s enjoyable. But what the heck were organizers thinking?

Micah: They weren’t! It’s Ludo!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s Ludo.

Micah: That’s what you have to remember at the end of the day. But what I think is so fascinating is that both mascots are not what they appear to be, in the sense that on the surface level, we know the Veela are masked by their looks; the leprechauns are masked by their money because the money isn’t real either. I mean, think about how pissed off you would be if you’re at a sporting event and you got the T-shirt toss, but then when you went home, the T-shirt disappeared. You wouldn’t like that, would you?

Eric: No. I mean, I’m only paying for my drinks at the stadium with leprechaun gold, because that they can’t take away from me.

Micah: But if you come with me, you get the drinks for free, as well as the tickets. Right, Eric?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: We didn’t know that. We found that out thanks to our our neighbor, who was next to us at the Bulls game. But anyway.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, so again, just going back to Veelas’ origin in history. Here’s two more excerpts I pulled from Wiki: “Vila are usually friendly to people, but they can take horrible revenge on those who insult them, disregard their orders, or uninvitedly, approached their circle dance,” and “Within the Czech tradition, Vily are almost always malicious, unless respected and avoided. They are portrayed as beautiful women with long flowing hair, who primarily live in the woods, marshes, or forest clearings. They are said to try to entrance men, who wander into their land, by their looks and beautiful voices.” So yeah, definitely woodland and water-based fairy creatures from the Slavic regions. Spot on.

Laura: And to that note, did anyone else remember that Veela are native to Bulgaria? Obviously, I remember them being here in this chapter, but I think I had forgotten that Veela are actually from Bulgaria in this series; I think because Fleur is French, I somewhere along the way decided that Veela were French, but they’re not. [laughs]

Eric: That’s right!

Micah: Yeah, that’s a really good point.

Andrew: I had forgotten that too, yeah. Also, another thing that bothers me about these mascots: They are used as a distraction as the game progresses, which seems totally unfair, and that’s not what Quidditch is about. Let me just read you a quick passage. “The leprechauns had risen into the air again, and this time, they formed a giant hand, which was making a very rude sign indeed at the Veela across the field.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: “At this, the Veela lost control. Instead of dancing, they launched themselves across the field and began throwing what seemed to be handfuls of fire at the leprechauns.” I mean, come on. How is this allowed?

Micah: It’s Bevo and Uga all over again.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Is the Quidditch game not exciting enough? It is!

Micah: Well, eh.

Laura: Well, Andrew, where I think you’re wrong is when you said, “This isn’t fair.” Quidditch isn’t fair. Nothing about Quidditch is fair.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Wizards. Love. Chaos.

Laura: They do.

Micah: It’s true, though. If I was trying to find a real world comparison that’s not a longhorn and a bulldog going after each other, [laughs] I thought about… you know when you have those moments where a fan runs onto the field or a fan runs onto the court and it’s just complete chaos as security tries to chase them down? I don’t know if it’s an exact comparison. Or maybe when teams get into all-out brawls with each other.

Andrew: Yeah, well, okay, but in the Muggle world, during sporting events, you attend one; you’ll hear chants and music play in between batter swings, in between plays; they always cut the music before the play begins. If the mascots want to be having fun during breaks in the Quidditch game – which, admittedly, there don’t seem to be many, but they could probably squeeze some in somewhere – that’s okay. That would be fine. But this is going on as the gameplay is happening.

Eric: Yeah, it’s interference… from mascots. [laughs]

Andrew: Yes.

Micah: Well, I think if we’re going back to our conversation earlier with house-elves, it just goes to show you, they don’t control the creatures of the wizarding world. They’re their own individuals that can do what they want.

Andrew: But then they shouldn’t be allowed to attend these games.

Micah: Blame Ludo!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah. I mean, “Blame Ludo” is very easy, but yeah. There is some kind of national recognition that the countries themselves are being recognized, right? Ireland is very proud to be there; on behalf of Ireland they brought leprechauns, they brought Irish things, and a lot of their people. Same with Bulgaria. So this idea that the mascots are there representing their country, but they’re also their own group, is very interesting because then these fights break out that’s more to do with… honestly, it all just disguises the fact that Bulgaria gets clobbered point-wise. Bulgaria is so, so well beaten by… Harry is very impressed by Ireland’s Chasers’ flying, but yeah, it’s just a crazy way to add to the already existing craziness in the chapter, and otherwise, a pretty well-written Quidditch match that goes by so fast that Harry can’t use the slow down setting on his Omnioculars, and before you know it, it’s over.

Andrew: Yeah, Eric, as listeners probably know, you are leading today’s discussion. I was actually surprised you didn’t really focus on the game itself in our main discussion today.

Eric: Yeah, but I know we have a lot of odds and ends to talk about, mostly as a result of that.

Andrew: We sure do. I’m having a very big sportbro year, so maybe that’s why I noticed the lack of actual Quidditch talk.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Well, please, no, take her away. It’s just, we all know what happens in the thing, and I figured…

Micah: If folks haven’t seen your Instagram, Andrew, it’s quite impressive, all the sporting events you’ve been to the last couple of months.

Andrew: Oh my gosh. Thank you, Micah. The guy who works in sports says I’m quite impressive. What can I say?

Eric: Meanwhile, I thought to reel you in, I’d have to compare the Quidditch World Cup to a Bruce Springsteen concert or something.

Andrew: [laughs] I went to plenty of those too this year.

Eric: Pretty wild in those crowds.

Andrew: It’s been a great year for me. I’m living.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: But yeah, so Micah, well, I didn’t hear Instagram.com/AndrewSims. That was it. I just wanted to make sure you said that.


Odds & Ends


Andrew: So yeah, odds and ends. At the beginning of the chapter, Arthur says that there are Muggle-Repelling Charms on the Quidditch World Cup stadium, and if a Muggle approaches, they’ll remember an urgent appointment and dash away. I was wondering, when and how does that wear off? Because I’m imagining it wears off and then they go back to where the Quidditch World Cup is, and then they remember and are going to go back out again. Is it just this endless loop where they’re going back and forth between two places? And also, why wasn’t something like this used on the campsites?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We were talking about this last week. This seems like a good way to get the Muggles away.

Laura: That was the first thing I wondered when reading this chapter. Like, literally, y’all are using it in the same sort of proximity and you didn’t think to use it at the campsites?

Andrew: Right.

Laura: No, we’re just going to Obliviate this poor Muggle ten times a day.

Eric: They get it even worse next chapter, too; it’s awful. I had forgotten about that. It is next chapter. But yeah, the Muggles are just an afterthought. Like everything else, blame Ludo, blame the government… I mean, it’s on the stadium but not on the campgrounds. I can’t make sense of it.

Andrew: Another Quidditch-related note I had: This game, this particular match, is an example – I’m sorry – of why people say Quidditch is stupid. Peace and love, peace and love. That you can end the game when you’re behind should not be allowed. That’s ridiculous. Harry says Krum caught the Snitch because “he knew they were never going to catch up. The Irish Chasers were too good… he wanted to end it on his terms, that’s all.” That’s Harry’s quote.

Eric: I respect the way that this game ends, if Harry is right and that’s why Krum did it. You see this game that is, apart from the mascots, devolving into chaos and violence; the Beaters start using their clubs to hit players directly, not even Bludgers anymore; and the acrimonious relationship between the two teams is completely devolving. So somebody like Krum, who’s a natural leader, who’s somebody worthy of the Goblet of Fire choosing him for the Triwizard Cup, is going to naturally see that his team, his country, is not represented in the best light, and he’s going to do everything in his power to end it before things get even worse.

Micah: Yeah, I agree. And I think if we’re to look, though, at the math, which I know we always have fun doing on this show – I wish that Nicole and Lexi were here because they did a much better job of it last week…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: … but I believe the score is only a ten-point differential, right, once Krum catches the Snitch, so it’s not like they were down by such a huge margin, catching the Snitch notwithstanding. But if Krum would have just waited – and you don’t know how the game would have played itself out, so we can’t presume – but if they were just to score twice more and Krum caught the Snitch, the game would have gone in favor of Bulgaria. So that’s where I wonder, but I do agree with what you’re saying, Eric; I definitely think he wanted to do it on his own terms. And the match was just devolving, like you said. But I did think that J.K. Rowling did take the opportunity to make this the Quidditch moment of the book, as we won’t get any for the remainder of Goblet of Fire. And even into Order of the Phoenix, right, once Umbridge enacts her Educational Decree, so we are Quidditchless for a good period of time before Half-Blood Prince. So she went all out, because I would say, I think for as hard as it has been for her to write that, and she’s been outspoken about that, she did a pretty good job.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And it’s like, Quidditch is not timed. That’s the other thing. So in the absence of timing, you do need an ending, a big game-ending thing like 150 points to catch the Snitch. So that’s why I think Quidditch, unlike football, basketball, everything, is like, okay, because they have the Snitch instead. They have this huge point gain instead. So you’re, as a Quidditch fan, either watching what the Chasers, Beater, and Keeper are all up to, or you’re watching the Seeker.

Micah: Yeah. One other moment that stood out to me was from Cornelius Fudge, when he was trying at times in the box to interact with the Bulgarian Minister for Magic, because he presumed… I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that Fudge never actually made an attempt to even ask him if he spoke English. And then, surprise, at the very end of this chapter he does, and he congratulates his team on the effort that they put forth. And it kind of reminded me of your traditional xenophobic moment, “You stupid American,” in this case, “You stupid Brit,” for not really making an effort, just assuming because they’re from another country that they don’t know your language or they don’t know your customs, and it speaks to Fudge’s character in this series.

Laura: Right. I agree for sure. There’s a definite superiority complex at play and kind of an ethnocentrism, too, at play that is 100% in Fudge’s character. Onto something a little less nefarious than that, though, the Omnioculars. We learn pretty quickly that Harry actually can’t be watching the match and slowing it down and rewinding, because this match is going by quick, like Eric said earlier. But something that I thought was really cool about these is they’re able to highlight the names of plays on their instant replay, which is cool. There are these blue bubble letters that were coming up to describe the names of plays, and one of the plays that I had forgotten about that is kind of horrifying is… I forget the name of it, but it’s the one where the Seeker effectively pretends to see the Snitch and dive bombs towards the ground to lure the other Seeker also towards the ground.

Eric: That’ll be the Wronski Feint.

Laura: Yes, that’s right. Thank you. The Wronski Feint. Pulling out of it at the last moment and causing the other Seeker to just go boom into the ground.

Eric: Listen, that’s hilarious because the Omnioculars even have a disclaimer for that one. It’s their equivalent of “Do not try this at home.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Like, “Widely controversial Seeker thing” is what it says behind it. All the other plays listed are just the name of the play, but this one says that it’s pretty dangerous. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah. And what I just really loved about these moments was that it was pure joy of Harry loving Quidditch.

Eric: “I love Quidditch.”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: He didn’t say that. But it’s…

Andrew: That’s coming in the TV show. “I love Quidditch.”

Micah: That’s in the TV show. But it’s just very cool to see him getting a chance to study the game that he clearly is very good at himself.

Andrew: “Study the game.” That’s an interesting way to put it. I do think the Omnioculars are very cool, in particular for this feature that you called out, Laura, and I will revisit this in MVP of the Week.

Eric: I did wonder… knowing that Winky is not alone in the press box, this was the chance to really see and observe Harry Potter for Barty Crouch, Jr. prior to Hogwarts, prior to Barty Crouch serving as Mad-Eye Moody this year, which is obviously a nefarious Death Eater plot. And if I’m remembering correctly, Barty Crouch, Jr. is actually under his father’s Imperius Curse right now, so he can’t necessarily give Harry that extra kick out of the box like we suggested earlier. But what must Barty Crouch have been thinking? Because Barty Crouch, Jr.’s and Harry’s relationship is a really, I want to say, series unique one. Harry gets a lot of, I think, genuine lessons out of Barty Crouch, Jr. So knowing that, what do we imagine is Barty Crouch, Jr.’s take on what’s going on in this chapter?

Andrew: I wonder if he got fooled by the Veelas.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: He nearly jumped out of his Invisibility Cloak and… yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: He’s seen it all before.

Andrew: His leg popped out.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I was thinking that this may be one of the more outrageous security nightmares in the entire book. So basically, you’re telling me that anybody with an Invisibility Cloak, or the ability to turn themselves invisible, can just walk into the Quidditch World Cup. There’s no security.

Eric: Well, maybe Crouch, Sr. snuck him in.

Micah: I’m assuming that’s how it happened.

Eric: In his tent. He packed up the tent, the kid’s in the tent, they open up the tent, surprise.

Micah: I’m sure we’ll get more information on that as the book goes on. But what if somebody accidentally tripped over Barty? What if somebody sat on top of him? Imagine the chaos that would ensue inside the box. I mean, good thing Dumbledore wasn’t there, because Dumbledore can see through Invisibility Cloaks.

Eric: Right, anyone could cast Homenum Revelio and it would show up. The fact that Barty is on the end of the bench makes it more dangerous, because people would naturally go into that row in order to like, “Okay, sorry, Winky. Can you stand up?” So you’re right; it’s a pretty big security thing.

Andrew: Well, and even if Sr. did sneak Jr. in, you would think there would be additional security protocols to keep an eye out for somebody sneaking in. Dark detectors, if you will. Something that Crouch, Sr. wouldn’t have been able to sneak by because it’s a wider net, detection net, stadium wide, something like that.

Micah: It’s another Ludo Bagman special.

[Eric laughs]

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Eric: There it is. Hey, I just had one other thought going back to Bagman, who we know is this world-renowned Quidditch player. Seeing Krum move and do his thing in this chapter is very exciting. We mentioned that Harry falls in love with Quidditch again, kind of, in this chapter; it really reaffirms it. I would have liked to have seen somewhere in the Triwizard Tournament… knowing of the plot of this book, knowing that Harry and Krum are both champions, I really would have liked to have seen them face off together directly on broomstick. Wouldn’t that have actually been pretty cool if later in the book Harry has to directly race Krum on a broom, given that he observes him so deftly during this game?

Andrew and Micah: That would be cool.

Andrew: A little exhibition match.

Eric: International Quidditch star… yeah, or just challenging each other, like a banter kind of thing that develops in between two tasks.

Andrew: Yeah!

Micah: You may get to do that in the new Quidditch video game. I’m sure you can pick certain characters to play with.

Eric: Oh, that’s what I’m looking forward to in 2024.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, well, that is the chapter. And with that, let’s move on to MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And as I set up a couple minutes ago, I’m going to give it to the Omnioculars for all of their features. The Quidditch play details, the instant replay, slowing time down… very cool tech. And the reason I wanted to call it out is because I feel like one day we could probably see something like this in the Muggle world. We have augmented reality and smart glasses. Something like this will exist in the Muggle world one day.

Eric: And I’m going to give it to Viktor Krum. Again, think he’s a cool guy, but for doing the hard thing and bringing this disastrous Quidditch match to an end.

Laura: I’m going to give it to the leprechauns for being an absolute mood.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I felt so seen reading over the leprechauns.

Andrew: Really!

Laura: Yeah, you know me; I’m known to make a rude gesture here and there.

Andrew: Oh. Yes, I’ve got photos of those.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I felt a kinship with them. [laughs]

Andrew: I see.

Micah: And I’m going to give it to Oblansk, the Bulgarian Minister for Magic, for owning Fudge and providing some much needed laughter at the end of the chapter.

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or by using our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Next week, our final episode of the year, though we will also release a bonus MuggleCast to the public over our winter break. But this will be the final new episode of the year. It’ll be Chapter by Chapter once more; Goblet of Fire Chapter 9, “The Dark Mark.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for our weekly trivia game, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What broomstick does Harry see advertised as being for all the family at the Quidditch World Cup? The correct answer is the Bluebottle. Bluebottle, room for all the family. Wonder how that worked, if all the family fits on it or what? But correct answers were submitted by Justice for cat ladies; Micah the Reddit virgin; Arthur Weasley’s libido…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: … Hufflepuff Andrew fan; Hogsmeade fashion capital of the world; Callie loves Quizzitch; Bulgaria’s moral victory; Andrew’s vibrating broomstick is a broom for all the family…

Andrew: Aww.

Eric: … Ahoy, wishing y’all no Crouchie Ouchies this holiday season…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … Albus burstblipple wolf freak bran muffin dumpfulltruck, Shnorder of Shmerlin first supreme mugwump wizard man… ooh. And Grace the 13-year-old Slytherin; Neville the snake slayer; Dudley’s poor PlayStation; Insert completely unhinged name here; Ahoy y’all; a healthy breeze – no, the healthy breeze around Archie’s privates.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: And finally, somebody who wrote “I’m afraid all the answers for this I can think of reference The Goon Show, which may be a bit niche for US audiences, as in, ‘He’s fallen in the water.'” Yeah, Goon Show is a deep throwback. So congratulations to all of the winners and more, and here is next week’s question: In what book does Hermione learn about Beauxbatons Academy of Magic? Submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on “Quizzitch” if you’re on the website already via the main nav.

Andrew: Less than a week, less than a week, less than a week! To visit MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com and get one-of-a-kind MuggleCast and Millennial podcast items from our overstock store. These are great holiday gifts to add to your wish list or for the MuggleCast fan in your life. So there’s less than a week to order and have it there in time for Christmas, so please, with peace and love, peace and love, place those orders now, or ask Santa to place those orders now. You can also visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and to contact us. By the way, one of our Quizzitch players was “Ahoy y’all”; well, there’s been an update to the contact page and the form.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If you are enjoying MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too – maybe some of your friends want some more Harry Potter friends in their lives – we’re here for y’all. Tell a friend about the show. We’d also appreciate it if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. Last but not least, visit Patreon.com if you want to support the show and receive early access to the show, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, yearly physical gifts, and a lot more. We couldn’t do this without your support. So thank you; whether you support us at Patreon.com/MuggleCast or through the Apple Podcasts paid subscription, we really, really, really appreciate it. So that does it. Don’t forget, we’re going to have a new bonus MuggleCast out later this week in which we are doing a year in review looking at what happened over the past year in the Harry Potter fandom and also a 2024 preview, and maybe we’ll make some predictions. So that’s it. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye everyone.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #637

 

MuggleCast 637 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #637, Crouchy Ouchy (GOF Chapter 7, Bagman and Crouch) feat. Fantasy Fangirls


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Grab your plainest clothing, because this week we are journeying to the Quidditch World Cup undercover and meeting Ludo the gambling man when we discuss Chapter 7 of Goblet of Fire, “Bagman and Crouch.” And we have a supersized panel this week; two amazing guests with us. They are the hosts of Fantasy Fangirls – very popular podcast currently discussing Fourth Wing and Iron Flame, a very popular book series – Nicole and Lexi. Welcome, Nicole and Lexi.

Lexi: Thank you! Thank you so much for having us.

Nicole: Thank you for having us!

Andrew: It is a pleasure. Actually, having you two on is kind of surreal for me because I got into Fourth Wing, and then I went into Fourth Wing TikTok and I started seeing your videos all the time, then I looked at your podcast. We know somebody mutually, actually, as luck would have it. And then here you are. So this is just very exciting to have you both on.

Lexi: That’s so exciting. I am an OG Harry Potter fan, and I actually think that MuggleCast was the very, very first podcast that I listened to. I don’t even know if I knew it was a podcast back then. But this is just the absolute dream come true, and thank you so much for having us.

Nicole: I didn’t know that.

Andrew: Well, thank you. Yes, Lexi is going to prove just how big of a Harry Potter fan she is in a few minutes.

Lexi: For me, the audiobook is my comfort thing. I listen to a Harry Potter audiobook every single night as I fall asleep.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: I love that.

Lexi: And I have very young children, and so it’s a wonderful thing to keep me company when I’m nursing in the evenings or whatever that might be, in the middle of the night there.

Andrew: That’s amazing. So tell us about your podcast, Fantasy Fangirls.

Lexi: So Nicole and I, we do very deep dives, very similar to MuggleCast is doing right now with Goblet of Fire. And so we are currently taking… well, we did take Fourth Wing. We covered that in September and October. And now that Iron Flame came out earlier this month in November, we are covering that. We’re just about to release Episode 3. And we are just digging into every single morsel, all the foreshadowing, tons of theories. It is an unfinished book series, so that’s one of the big things about it, is there are so many fun theories, so many easter eggs, and Nicole and I are absolutely all about them. We pull in a lot of character analysis, helping people navigate through the hangover that is Iron Flame – if you know, you know – and the community has just been absolutely incredible. We only started a podcast about two and a half months ago, and it just grew overnight. It’s absolutely both overwhelming and exciting in the best way possible.

Nicole: Overwhelming is a really good word for it, but in the best way, yes.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, probably thanks in part to TikTok, right? I guess that’s how a lot of the listeners are finding you, like I did. [laughs]

Lexi: Yes, so in fact, on day one we had our very, very first TikTok of a podcast clip. And we just posted it to TikTok – we had, like, zero followers – and it went viral, and that is how it all started. So from that very first viral TikTok video.

Nicole: We’ve basically been very fortunate to not stop going viral for the last ten weeks, and a lot of people have really rallied around the podcast and shared it with their friends. And since it is such a hot topic right now, I think so many people are loud and proud about it. And they needed an outlet of someone else who is just as passionate about it as they are, and we were the hangover cure that a lot of people have called us. But it’s been the best ten weeks of our lives. It’s been absolutely insane.

Micah: When you were talking about theorizing and character analysis, it gave me a bit of nostalgia because that’s really how we all got started with MuggleCast back in the day.

Andrew: Absolutely.

Nicole: Yeah, I love it. I love it so much.

Andrew: So tell us, why is Fourth Wing so popular? I’ve read it. I imagine Micah, Eric, and Laura are going to read it at some point because I think it’s too hot to avoid.

Laura: I’m reading it right now. What are you talking about?

Andrew: Oh, okay, great. I’m sure many of our listeners have read this book by now. There’s really no avoiding it online, I don’t think. What do you think has made Fourth Wing so popular so far?

Nicole: I think the big thing is people compare it to either… it’s almost an amalgamation of Harry Potter for the school aspect, Game of Thrones for politics and dragons, and then another very popular fantasy series, A Court of Thorns and Roses, for the romance aspect. Romantasy has been a huge up-and-coming genre recently and I think that this just hit every single marker, but it’s also been called the gateway drug to romantasy world. It’s a very contemporary language. And the book is built around and expands on the magical world as you go deeper into it, very Harry Potter-esque if you… we’re in Book 4 as we’re on this podcast; we’re diving into more and more of the world, and that is definitely how Iron Flame is going. It’s just expanding, expanding, expanding. So I think there’s so much familiarity for a lot of readers, and I think that’s one of the major reasons it got so popular so fast. Also, it’s a huge representation book: The main character has Ehlers-Danlos, which is a chronic illness; the male main character is POC; we have a lot of lesbian, gay, bisexual characters. There’s so much representation all in this, and I think people were really starving for something in this world to have such high representation. And it just took off.

Andrew: Yeah, it really did. All the representation is nice to see. And by the way, for our younger listeners, there is some adult language and activities happening in this book…

Nicole: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Laura: True.

Andrew: … so you may want to ask your parents if Fourth Wing is right for you.

Lexi: Yes, yes. And the podcast as well, on that note too.

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Andrew: Lexi, I haven’t seen something get as close to becoming the next Harry Potter in a really long time. It really does seem like this story is unique. Have you been getting those spidey senses as well?

Lexi: I get more of a Twilight sense with this, and that’s saying that I was not a big Twilight fan. I wasn’t super into that. But I do get that a little bit more because it is a little bit more niche. Harry Potter, it’s so ingrained in pop culture. Every single person knows their Hogwarts House. We have Universal Studios and Harry Potter World, and just all of that, and I definitely don’t see any book series, not just this one, getting to that level. Now, of course, Fourth Wing is going to be a TV series; I’m super excited about that. So I do see it definitely really being mainstream, but for it to be ingrained in our pop culture, I don’t know if I’d quite take it that far. And that’s also me just being such a OG Harry Potter fan that I just don’t know if anything could ever quite compare to it.

Eric: Yeah, it’d be hard to imagine, but even Harry Potter started off somewhere.

Lexi: That is very true.

Andrew: To that point, we didn’t think Harry Potter was the next Harry Potter after Chamber of Secrets came out. It took a while. And one reason I’m so bullish on Fourth Wing, Iron Flame, this whole series, is because we only have two books out, and there’s still another three, right? And there might be spinoffs. And Lexi, you mentioned the TV show. So we’re in the very, very early stages of this fandom, and I think that’s very exciting. And I think I agree with you: Ultimately, nothing can potentially ever be the next Harry Potter, but things can get close, and maybe they’ll be their own versions of that. I think this fandom is very exciting.

Lexi: Actually, I’ll change my comparison. Maybe a little bit more like Game of Thrones, because that is another thing that everybody knows about too. Maybe not everybody has read the books, because they are some dense books – I love the books, but they are very dense – but again, before the final season came out, everybody was theorizing. Oh my gosh, on YouTube… I was so immersed in all of that. So I could definitely see this taking on a Game of Thrones aspect too.

Eric: They’ve just got to be sure to stick the landing.

Lexi: Oh, God, don’t get me started on that, Eric.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, and I don’t think people are going to want a Game of Thrones theme park, right? I mean, that would be a little…

Lexi: I tell you what, I would not want to go to any wedding ceremony in there.

Nicole: That could get creative real fast.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: One question I did have for you, though, in going back to this being the next Harry Potter: I think, first off, it’s tough to compare anything to Harry Potter. But I think the one thing Harry Potter had – and we’ve talked a lot about this on the show – is it was just the right time, especially with the rise of the Internet. It just was a combination of the right things at the right time before, I think, the Internet got to the point of where it is now, especially with social media. Because I often wonder what Harry Potter would have been like with all these platforms that are out today, and the level of criticism that all of these series have to go through.

Lexi: Yeah, I’ve thought about that as well, especially as… I’ve listened to other deep dives about Harry Potter, and I know that we’re going to be poking fun at some of the… I’ll call them gaping plot holes. [laughs] But we lovingly embrace them because we just have to let them be, and I agree that if… Harry Potter was so perfect at the time that it was, and now, for instance, Fourth Wing, I think it’s perfect for the time that it is because it has so many fun Easter eggs and ways to theorize, and everybody just loves that so much. And it’s got relatable characters, and like Nicole was saying, that representation, and it’s so great for the time that it’s in, the time that it’s coming out.

Andrew: Lexi, you mentioned you’re a big, big Harry Potter fan. You also told us you’re pretty darn good at reciting in order every single chapter in the Harry Potter series.

Lexi: Yes.

Andrew: So we thought if we could get a taste of this… we’re not going to have you do the whole book series.

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Andrew: Even though that would be incredibly impressive. Could you just recite every chapter in order from Book 4, the book we’re currently doing Chapter by Chapter on?

Eric: And I will be grading you; I’ve got copy of Goblet of Fire right here.

Lexi: All right, sounds good. And I’ll start by saying the reason that I know all of this is, again, going back to my very young children, I needed something to do after I’d read Harry Potter a million times on the audiobook, and so I started just making a game out of it for myself. And here I am a few years later. So anyway, all right. Chapter 1, we have “The Riddle House,” of course; Chapter 2, “The Scar”; Chapter 3, “The Invitation”; Chapter 4, “Back to the Burrow”; Chapter 5, “Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes”; and Chapter 6, “The Portkey”; Chapter 7, “Bagman and Crouch.” Hey, that’s today’s episode!

[Nicole laughs]

Eric: Hey, for those following at home!

Lexi: Chapter 8, “The Quidditch World Cup.” Then… what am I on? That was Chapter 8. Chapter 9 is “The Dark Mark”; Chapter 10, “Mayhem at the Ministry”; Chapter 11, “Aboard the Hogwarts Express”; Chapter 12 is “The Triwizard Tournament”; Chapter 13 is “Professor” – no, “Mad-Eye Moody”? Yeah, “Mad-Eye Moody”; and then Chapter 14, oh, “The Unforgivable Curses” because that’s right after that. Okay, and then we have “Beauxbatons and Durmstrang”; Chapter 16, we have “The Goblet of Fire”; Chapter 17, we have “The Four Champions”; Chapter 18 “The Weighing of the Wands”; Chapter 19, “The Hungarian Horntail”; Chapter 20, “The First Task”; Chapter 21, we have “The House-Elf Liberation Front”; Chapter 22, we have… okay, then we have “The Unexpected Task”; then Chapter 23, “Yule Ball”; Chapter 24, “Rita Skeeter’s Scoop”; Chapter 25, “The Egg and the Eye”; Chapter 26 is “The Second Task”; Chapter 27 is “Padfoot Returns”; Chapter 28 is “The Madness of Mr. Crouch”; Chapter 29 is “The Dream”; Chapter 20… Chapter 30… what chapter am I on? I’m so nervous that I’m forgetting and I have to…

Eric: You’re doing great. You’re on 30.

Lexi: “The Pensieve.” Chapter 31 is “The Third Task”; Chapter 32 is “Flesh, Blood, and Bone”; Chapter 33 is “The Death Eaters”; Chapter 34 is “Priori Incantatem”; I can’t pronounce that. Chapter 35 is “Veritaserum”; Chapter 36 is “The Parting of the Ways”; and Chapter 37 is “The Beginning.” Yep, I know there’s 37.

Eric and Laura:: Wow.

[Everyone cheers]

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Eric: 100% accuracy!

Nicole: I am so proud to be your sister!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: They’re sisters too! I don’t even think we mentioned this.

Lexi: Oh, yeah, we’re sisters. [laughs] But yeah, I have my milestone chapters and then I have the sequence of events that go through, and so yeah, that’s that.

Eric: Being able to say the numbers before each title? I would never be able to. I’d never be able to, like, “Which one am I on?” Absolutely not. I’d just be able to, like, in an order of something.

Laura: No.

Lexi: That’s why I have… I know the task ones is my is the main one for fourth one. Like I said, those milestone ones, and then I can figure out what’s in between.

Laura: I’m so impressed.

Lexi: Thank you.

Andrew: Yes, you have proven yourself as a real Harry Potter fan.

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Andrew: I love your story as to how you remember all these chapters. Lexi and Nicole, such a pleasure to have you on, and listeners, please check out Fantasy Fangirls.

Micah: That’s it. The show’s over.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, we just had you on to see that party trick. Before we get to Chapter by Chapter, quick announcement, and it’s a timely reminder, so I really wanted to bring it up. Don’t forget, listeners, our overstock store is now open. If you ever wanted one of our cool physical gifts that we have sent to patrons over the years, but you didn’t or couldn’t subscribe to our Patreon, now’s your chance to pick up things like T-shirts, the MuggleCast beanie, the MuggleCast socks, the sweet 16 wooden car that you build, signed album art, all kinds of things. MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com; we’ll also have a link in the show notes. This is where you can get very limited time items. Once these are gone, these are gone, because these are the Overstock things that we’ve had over the years, and now we’re finally cleaning out our closets. And we can turn these around pretty quick. So if you’re shopping for the MuggleCast listener in your life, or maybe you could tell a parent or a loved one, “Hey, go grab me a MuggleCast T-shirt,” go to the store. We’ll get it out in the mail ASAP. By mid-December we’re probably going to no longer guarantee things by Christmas. But until then, Santa MuggleCast over here is delivering MuggleCast goods.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And we may have one more item that we’re adding to the store. We’re going to check on that.

Andrew: Yeah, more lost T-shirts. [laughs] Recently uncovered.

Laura: Ooh.

Andrew: They’re just hiding all over the desert in this case.

Eric: [laughs] Anyone whose house we’ve ever stayed at might have a box of shirts.

Andrew: Yes. [laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, so with that, let’s move on to Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Goblet of Fire Chapter 7. What chapter is that again, Lexi? Oh yeah, “Bagman and Crouch.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: And as if there wasn’t enough pressure on Nicole and Lexi – in particular with that reciting of the chapters – we are involving them in the seven-word summary as well. Nicole is going to go first and then Lexi. So are you two ready to be put on the spot again?

Nicole: I’m sweating. I hope you all know this. [laughs] Full on sweating.

Andrew: Oh my God. We get stressed by it too.

Nicole: No, I’m so excited. Let’s do this. I’m ready.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Nicole: Arriving…

Lexi: … at…

Andrew: … the…

Laura: … campsite…

Micah: … makes…

Eric: … much…

Nicole: … happen.

Andrew: Well done, well done.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: So the first part of this discussion today is going to be around how the wizards are dealing with the Muggles on site; then we’ll get to Ludo and Barty. So the gang arrive by Portkey and they head to their campsite, where a Muggle named Mr. Roberts will check them in and collect the cost of the campsite. Now, something a little strange happens right off the bat. Arthur needs help from Harry to figure out how much Muggle money he owes Mr. Roberts, and the campsite manager notes that two other people tried to pay him in large gold coins. Nicole, this seems a little odd, right?

Nicole: This is wild to me. The fact that… I have a small bone to pick with Arthur. I’m going to hop on a high horse right off the top of the episode. The fact that this man works in a Muggle-centric part of the Ministry and doesn’t know how to navigate Muggle money, let alone read Muggle money, is wild.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Agreed.

Eric: It’s like he’s never seen it before.

Nicole: He thought a 20 was a 5. And I’m like, “My guy. You can do this.”

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Eric: Listen, listen. We know that Hogwarts does not have math class…

Lexi: That is true.

Nicole: You make a very good point, Eric. [laughs]

Eric: … so maybe we can blame former headmasters of Hogwarts on this?

Laura: Yeah, but they have numbers in the wizarding world.

Andrew: What?

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: You don’t have to know math.

Eric: Well, seven. They have seven numbers.

[Lexi and Nicole laugh]

Laura: I could understand if maybe he needed help with the mathematical side of things, okay. But confusing a 5 for a 20 or vice versa makes no sense. I 100% agree with you, Nicole. This is one of my biggest gripes about Arthur. How does he consistently not know things about the Muggle world when it is his job to know them?

Andrew: And he…

Nicole: There’s certain… oh, go for it, Andrew.

Andrew: Well, I was just going to say, he gets so much pleasure out of studying Muggle things, you would think he would also be fascinated by Muggle money. Go ahead, Nicole.

Nicole: Well, and also, I can’t blame him entirely for a lot of things. Later on, he plays with matches, which is concerning…

Eric: No, I’ve done that, yeah.

Nicole: … but maybe not as alarming as not being able to read Muggle money.

[Lexi laughs]

Nicole: That’s terrifying.

Micah: He’s a pyro.

Nicole: But certain things… he gets so excited and he’s so… electricity and everything; he just gets so excited about the Muggle world. But the fact that he doesn’t know how to interact with Muggle things… I think that would be base level, intern level at his job when he entered the Ministry, or Muggle class 101.

Eric: Yes.

Micah: I was thinking, too, with this whole situation, wristbands.

Nicole: Yes!

[Lexi laughs]

Micah: Just wristband everyone. Why does everybody have to pay this guy to get onto the site?

Nicole: Someone’s been to Lollapalooza.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Look, the wristband situation is very efficient. That’s a great setup. It really works. Why is this guy even here to take their money? That sounds like an endless amount of Memory Charms in the making. And sure enough, that happens in this chapter. People materialize out of anywhere, yell “Obliviate,” and he just goes on with this day, but why is he even here? There can be no way in which this goes off without a hitch. And they could have just either sent him on vacation, did something like they do with the Dursleys to get them out of their home… why is the Muggle even here? We know a lot worse is coming with him and his family later.

Andrew: He owns the campsite. It’s just that simple, isn’t it? So I guess…

Eric: Well, yeah, but he can go on a vacation, or anti-Muggle charms that they put up; make a Muggle forget something at home, like, “Oh, I left the oven on,” he’s got to trek… just go away for a week.

Laura: I mean, Hermione sends her parents to Australia in Book 7. It can be done.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Rent out the entire campsite. The Quidditch World Cup can do it or whatever. Rent out all the campsites that you need. And then, yes, tell Mr. Roberts and all the other owners to go take a little vacation.

Eric: Yeah, there’s got to be someone in the wizarding world that knows how to do money. Just give him a huge sum, tell him he won a trip, and… the best minds are on this. This is the international government effort. And you have this man who is for reasons very obvious, suspicious, personally interacting with every new camper. It seems like people didn’t actually think this out very much.

Laura: Wizards just love chaos, as we talk about on this show all the time. And to the point of all the Memory Charms, I feel like an excessive amount of Memory Charms being performed on a person has to cause some kind of lasting damage. There is no way it doesn’t. And we’ve already seen in Chamber of Secrets the effects of a Memory Charm that is misfired, so I have to think that overdoing it, it’s the equivalent of running somebody… I don’t know if this is a great comparison, but they don’t want to give people MRIs five times a day for a month. You know what I mean? It has some impacts.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Right.

Lexi: If you think about it, Bertha Jorkins… so we know that Barty Crouch… that’s why she has such bad memory later at the very end of the book. And she’s very prominent at the very end of this chapter, too, as they’re talking about her and why no one’s gone out looking for her, which I have so much to talk about. We’ll get to that. But that’s another example of Memory Charms gone wrong. So I absolutely agree; I don’t think that it’s good for this man’s brain.

Nicole: Well, and I’ll also say, he at first – he meaning Mr. Roberts – forgets to give Arthur his change. Now, this could be because he’s just spinning off and trying to put puzzle pieces together, but it also could be a early onset issue with this many Memory Charms, to which the Ministry immediately gives him a Memory Charm.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Nicole: And then he gives his change back after that.

Eric: “Oh, you’re remembering something? No, you aren’t.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But that is wizards’ whole approach to everything pretty much when it comes to Muggles.

Micah: It’s also a reflection, too, of how the Ministry views Muggles. And we see a slow de-evolution over the course of the next several books in terms of how the Ministry treats non-wizarding folk, so maybe this is a little bit of a taste for us as readers. Just going back to Arthur for a second, because we’ve talked about this in this book in particular, I’m wondering if he doesn’t know how to use money, is that some kind of statement being made by the author because he doesn’t have a lot of money?

Laura: Ohh.

Eric: Right, he’s never seen a lot of either kind of money, you’re thinking.

Lexi: Oh, that’s so sad.

Nicole: Oh, I never thought of it that way.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting thought, but also, this is basic math here and a basic understanding of currency.

Eric: Yeah, okay, it’d be one thing if British money had Roman numerals, so it was an X instead of a V and he confused the 10 with a 5 because, okay, that seems fair. But a 5 is a 5 and a 20 is a 20. And they might both have the queen on them, but that’s about it. They’re a different color. British money is different colors.

Andrew: Nicole, you have some thoughts on how wizards don’t know how to blend in with Muggles.

Lexi: So we were talking about them renting out the whole property, which is just a fantastic idea. And you think about whatever the complex logistics that go into that, it can’t be more difficult than trying to keep all of this magic a secret. They’re trying to keep it secret from one Muggle family, who, I understand that they live right there on site and manages or owns the campsite there. And it’s a running joke throughout the series, how wizards, they don’t know how to blend in with Muggles, of course. But it shows just how disassociated and uneducated this wizarding society is from the Muggle world; it ties into their conscious or subconscious feelings of superiority. And I say that even about Arthur. He loves Muggles so much, but there is going to be a sense of superiority, which we especially saw in Chapter 4, “Back to the Burrow” there. And how much secrecy the need to keep themselves, it really separates them. They are not associated with the Muggle community for obvious reasons, and therefore, they don’t know anything about the Muggle community, and that really does show that separation there because they have to keep themselves such a big secret.

Andrew: Somebody made a joke about Muggle 101 or something like that a little while ago; there should be some sort of wizard/Muggle social integration lesson at least, somewhere within Hogwarts, like Muggles Studies.

Eric: Well, and I like the idea that Lexi was saying, that it’s because of the Statute of Secrecy that they can’t see Muggles close enough to learn about them to get educated. Because I’m right with that train of thought that says Muggle Studies – which is just a chosen elective for some people who want to take it in maybe their third year – should absolutely be mandatory before you are ever allowed to set foot on Muggle ground. It should be seven years. It should be a subject that’s… it’s more important than Charms. There, I said it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: If they outnumber you… look, no offense to Flitwick – he would probably excel at teaching Muggle Studies – but they need… reading this chapter specifically, it is insane and absurd how much craziness goes on and how poorly wizards are equipped to blend in. And it’s like they’re not even trying, even head ones.

Micah: Eric, I love this point, because this is the 422nd iteration of this event; it’s not like they decided to do it yesterday.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: You would think that they would have a much better system in place.

Eric: Honestly, Memory Charms are the only things keeping the Statute of Secrecy up. Well-placed Memory Charms going back centuries.

Nicole: It’s tragic.

Andrew: We used to say it was Dumbledore who enjoys the chaos in the wizarding world, but it’s actually all wizards. They just love the mess. It keeps things exciting for them.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: Oh, man. Eric, you bring up an interesting point about a course like Muggle Studies probably should be required, but this is where things always tend to get political with education and what courses are offered. So I’m just trying to imagine the Board of Governors of Hogwarts and them voting on what the required class load is going to be, and them being very dismissive of a course like Muggle Studies. Probably, they would take a similar view towards Divination as well, which is why that’s an elective course. But it just does go to show the many layers in the wizarding world that are impacted by this bias towards Muggles, and a lot of really well-intentioned characters in this series have it and don’t even realize it.

Lexi: That’s such a good point. Yep.

Andrew: So let’s talk about Ludo Bagman. He is the Head of Magical Games and Sports, and he’s not helping with keeping the Muggles in the dark. He keeps loudly talking about Quidditch around the event space. And this situation to keep Muggles from growing suspicious seems untenable, given, as we’re talking about today, the number of wizards on site and how they seem to be pretty lax about keeping their world under wraps. Any other ideas for how they should be handling this?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I think you’ve already mentioned it, but I’m just thinking about Muggle-Repelling Charms. They use these at Hogwarts to shield a giant castle that is filled with magical children.

Lexi: It’s already such a stressful event for everyone. Why are they adding all of this extra unnecessary stress of monitoring that these wizards, who use magic all day every day, telling them, “Hey, no, you cannot use magic,” as they are Apparating and Disapparating to tell them not to use magic?

Eric: Those Extension Charms that they can do. So if a briefcase can become a full-on zoo in the size of a briefcase, you could fit a World Cup and 100,000 people in a single church or something. I mean, why couldn’t you, like, Room of Requirement? “This year’s Quidditch World Cup will be held in Hogwarts’s Room of Requirement. Thank you. Walk three times on level seven.” It doesn’t make sense. And why is a Muggle present? Of course, we also have the foresight, knowing that the Muggle that’s here, Mr. Roberts and his family, become direct targets for these wizards later. So everything nice and everything accidental about it becomes very intentional, and the Muggle is in more danger. But you just can’t possibly control all of these variables. So the Muggle should be put to sleep for a few days…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … or something a little bit more ethical maybe.

Laura: That sounds so ominous.

Nicole: [laughs] I was going to say, you’re going to drug him?

Andrew: Put out to pasture…

Eric: They’re going to already drugging him, though! They’re already…

Nicole: [laughs] That’s true, that’s true.

Micah: This is a celebration. This is something that happens once every four years. Why are you going to try and keep people from being excited and having a good time? That’s what I don’t understand.

Andrew: I was going to say this exact thing.

Eric: It’s all fun and games until somebody gets held up by Death Eaters and paraded around in a stupor.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Listen, all of this was to set up the Portkey.

Lexi: Yes.

Andrew: Well, right.

Laura: That’s literally what this is.

Nicole: That’s a good point.

Eric: J.K. Rowling is like… she literally started with, “I need a boot that does things. How are we going to introduce…? I got it. I got it. Wizards suck.” [laughs]

Andrew: I skipped over this earlier, but to the point about Arthur: Rowling is basically throwing him under the bus, making him go, “Oh, what’s Muggle…? I don’t understand how to interpret Muggle money.” I was trying to think, what does that serve from a storytelling perspective? And it only really seems to be to show Mr. Roberts’s suspicions about these people, but there probably would have been other ways to do that without making Arthur seem like an idiot.

Eric: Yeah, it also makes Harry look good. Harry is happy to step in.

Nicole: This also started earlier in this book with the electric fireplace and… “eckeltricity”? Is that the word he uses for it?

Lexi: That’s what he says, yeah.

Nicole: He starts being this “kooky dad” – is what I’m going to call him – character way earlier than this chapter right here, and continues to be so for, I would probably say, the rest of the series. So I do wonder, what is the storytelling purpose behind having Arthur being a little bit, again, kooky dad energy?

Lexi: I think it goes right back to what we were saying about that subconscious of… he just has such good intentions, but he has always lived separate from them. He works I guess you could say “with” them, but it’s not with them; but it’s really more “around” them, is what it is there. And yes, it would make absolute sense for him to do his job knowing better, but it goes right back to he has always lived separate from them. That doesn’t explain it much more, but yeah.

Andrew: Well, no, I think that is an important little bit of subtext there.

Laura: Agreed.

Andrew: Lexi, again, being a major Harry Potter fan, you’ve also put some thought into the amount of wizards in the wizarding world. In light of this discussion about the Quidditch World Cup – everybody is congregating – how many people are actually there? How many people do you think are actually in the wizarding world?

Lexi: So I go down a lot of rabbit holes here. And I love all the world-building aspects, and so this this chapter in particular… I could argue that any chapter of all the Harry Potter series are my favorite, but this one in particular has so much great world-building about the actual world. So I was wondering, how many witches and wizards are there actually in the world? And I did my digging there, and like many math-related topics in the Harry Potter universe, I found two very different answers.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Lexi: So number one, the author has stated that there are about 3,000 witches and wizards in Britain, which is about 42 witches and wizards to every 1 million in the population. So that would make it super, super rare. 42 out of 1 million are going to be magical. However, there has also been a comment that one in 10 people are magical in the world, which, at the time of our story, that would be approximately 500 million witches and wizards across the globe. I do not think it’s nearly that many there. My guess is that the actual wizarding population is somewhere in between. We know that the Quidditch World Cup stadium, it can seat 100,000, and the tickets were really hard to come by, so we have that context. So if you asked me and I had to give you an answer, I would put it around the 5 to 10 million across the globe. What do you guys think? Just out of curiosity.

Eric: I’m starting to think that neither ADHD or Alzheimer’s are naturally occurring, and that what it is is we’ve just encountered wizards that had to correct their mistakes by Obliviate-ing us.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s why we get so distracted all the time. There’s literally just 500 million wizards always screwing up around us.

Lexi: I love that. That makes me really sad I’m not a witch, though. [laughs]

Laura: I think the logic is sound. I declare canon.

Andrew: Yeah, so I was going to say, Lexi, we have a segment on the show where if we just convince ourselves something must be true, then we declare it canon and it is henceforth canon.

Eric: Play the clip.

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

Andrew: The lightning makes it official. It would not be official if it weren’t for the lightning.

Eric: I never thought that I would be thinking of… even just parts, people per million, is a great way of analyzing that. I just think… I mean, look, the author self-admittedly is horrible at math.

Lexi: Yes.

Eric: And anytime there’s even like, a Quidditch score, you have to scrutinize it because it’s very taxing. And it’s taxing for all of us; I mean, why would you keep that in track? But if you go by the population of Hogwarts as well, knowing that they also encompass all of British wizards, then you get an even smaller number, I think, than the 42 per million. So you just really… it can’t be known. But 100,000 of them have turned out for this match.

Andrew: 500 million seems like that would be way too many. I mean, I would be terrified to live in a world with 500 million wizards. That’s just a security nightmare. [laughs]

Eric: That’s what I’m saying! That’s why we’re all so forgetful, yeah.

Lexi: [laughs] So yeah, I’m going to go with the 5 million final answer. I’m just pulling that up. I started to do some of the math because we know how many students are at Hogwarts, and so I was starting to look at all the other schools, and then I told myself, “You’ve got to get out of this rabbit hole. Just stop it.” So yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Lexi: Maybe one of these days I’ll actually try to do the math.

Micah: If you ever got the number correct, your memory would likely be wiped by a witch or wizard so that you’d…

Lexi: I’d say, “ADHD.” [laughs]

Andrew: You’ve got to play dumb.

Micah: To Eric’s point earlier, yep.

Andrew: “I just can’t figure it out! Author really stumped us.”

Lexi: You’re going to check in on me in three weeks, and Nicole is going to be like, “I don’t know what happened to Lexi. She ran off, and now she’s in Albania and we lost her.”

[Nicole laughs]

Eric: Lexi is going to need a straitjacket. “Who am I? Who am I?” Yeah.

Andrew: She said she was on Pottercast. I said, “No, you’re on MuggleCast.”

[Lexi laughs]

Laura: But listen, this is where I think our interpretations of the wizarding world can hit some limitations when we’re thinking about 2023 terms. Because yeah, they might come along, Lexi, and Obliviate you, but you’ve already shared this brilliant theory on our show that’s about to be pumped out to tens of thousands of listeners, so they gonna go around and wipe everyone’s memory who ever listen to this episode of the show?

Lexi: I’m so sorry, everyone. [laughs]

Nicole: It’s a lot of work.

Micah: Unless they get Andrew before he edits.

[Laura and Lexi laugh]

Andrew: They just edit it out. Yeah, that’s the easiest way to do it.

Laura: They just delete the whole thing. [laughs] The lost episode.

Micah: Now this gives me an idea for when I say things on the show; I can just go to the Obliviater squad and send them after Andrew so that they end up in the final cut.

Andrew: All right, I see this train riding off the rails, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Andrew is like, “Please, God, stop.”

Micah: Choo-choo.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: So back to what’s happening. Harry and Hermione, they lead the construction of their tent, and Harry assumes it’s going to be some plain old Muggle tent. But once he steps inside, it’s actually more of a magical glamping situation. It’s a three-room flat with a bathroom and a kitchen, and it’s apparently furnished in the style of Mrs. Figg’s house. And Arthur says he got this magical tent from a co-worker at the Ministry; this is Perkins, who we will meet in Order of the Phoenix. It almost seems out of character for him to not have wanted to use a plain Muggle tent. That’s part of getting the Muggle experience; that seems right up Arthur’s alley.

Eric: We’re all a little bit hypocritical when it comes to “Yes, Arthur is loving this, get up at the crack of dawn, carry all your kids there,” but why should they inconvenience themselves with Muggle tents, when it could just look like a tent outside and have all the conveniences on the inside?

Laura: I’ll defend myself here and say that I actually love traditional camping.

Eric: Nobody loves traditional camping! [laughs] I’m sorry.

Laura: I do. I think this is very in character for Arthur, though.

Eric: Right.

Laura: … because again, he’s obsessed with Muggles, but he doesn’t know that much about them, including what it’s like to camp in a tent.

Lexi: For all he knows, this is it.

Micah: I think Arthur said, “You know what, Harry, Hermione? Three years from now, you’re really going to need to know how to build a tent, so get after it.”

Eric: So why does it smell like Mrs. Figg’s house?

Andrew: That is a very good question. I think we actually have some theories. I know, Micah, thank you for putting in the note about Perkins; we meet him in Order of the Phoenix. But Figg is another person we meet in Order of the Phoenix.

Micah: Yep. There’s actually a lot of characters in this chapter that get a brief mention that we meet later on in Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Expanding the world, like I think Lexi said. Lexi, you might have a theory here about Perkins and Figg.

Lexi: I do. You can’t bring me onto a podcast and not… [sighs] I’ve got to talk my theories, right? So I love the theory that Perkins and Miss Figg, they dated at some point. Because they seem like they’re around the same age. They’re both older, and poor Perkins has lumbago, and they would go camping, they would go on camping adventures, and they’d bring her cats for whatever reason…

Eric: Ohh.

Lexi: … and he is in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Department as a homage to his continued love for the scribe that got away. That’s my theory right there.

Andrew and Laura:: Aww.

Lexi: Or it’s actually Mrs. Figg’s – or Miss Figg’s – is it Mrs. Figg or Miss Figg?

Eric: I always think of her as a Ms. Figg. [laughs] But that’s just me.

Laura and Nicole:: Mrs.

Lexi: It’s always called “Mrs.,” right? But we never hear anything about her husband, because…

Micah: She’s a cat lady. I mean, let’s be real.

Laura: And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Micah: There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m just saying.

[Andrew, Lexi, and Nicole laugh]

Lexi: Or I was also thinking, maybe it’s Mrs. Figg’s tent and the other tent that doesn’t smell like cats is Perkins’s, but Arthur, he is lying to Harry because he can’t tell him them that it’s actually his neighbor’s cat because she’s undercover and all of that. I don’t think that he’d actually lie to her, but I just have way too much fun.

Andrew and Laura:: Ohh.

Andrew: That’s fun.

Laura: That’s so fun.

Eric: That’s the interesting thing about this, is that I think this sets up Figg as being more than just a neighbor. And it’s true; we’ve learned she’s a Squib, but after the trial, that doesn’t go anywhere in Order of the Phoenix.

Nicole: Right?

Lexi: I have one more possibility; it’s that Perkins bought it from Mrs. Figg on the wizards’ version of Craigslist, or she gave it to him. Maybe it’s her brother, because she is a Squib, so maybe Perkins is her brother, and for some reason or another when she was done camping, she wanted to settle in as her undercover self. She gave it to him.

Nicole: I’m here for these unhinged theories. I love this.

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Lexi: Oh, I have so many with Harry Potter. It’s so much fun.

Nicole: Well, one thing I do want to mention is that this is also foreshadowing using Perkins’s tent here, because Harry mentions that he’s never been camping before, but he will be camping a lot soon, like you were saying, Micah, and in this very same tent. And I didn’t realize until I started doing my deep dives of the Harry Potter world that it was the same tent that they use for the Quidditch World Cup.

Andrew: That is crazy.

Laura: That is such a good catch.

Andrew: Thank you, Perkins.

Micah: Yeah, and this tent, by the way – I don’t know how the rest of the panel feels here – but it leads to one of the cheesiest moments in all of the Harry Potter films, when Harry walks into the tent and he just says, “I love magic.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I love that moment.

[Lexi and Nicole laugh]

Laura: I eye roll every time.

Micah: It was not needed. We’re four movies in. Come on, Mike Newell.

Andrew: He’s vocalizing what all the viewers are saying; that’s all.

Micah: I blame the director for that.

Lexi: He’s pulling an Eric; he’s like, “Yes, I’m not actually having to camp! Yes!”

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Andrew: So let’s focus now on Bagman and Crouch. So Bagman, I mentioned him a few minutes ago; he’s an eccentric wizard. He walks as if he has springs under his feet. And his first words to Harry and company are “Ahoy there,” which if you ever hear that from a stranger, you know you’re going to be in for a treat, I think. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody say “Ahoy there.” Well, maybe I just need to go sailing more, but…

Eric: Let’s normalize saying “Ahoy there.”

Nicole: I was going to say, I might start now.

[Everyone laughs]

Nicole: I feel like this is a challenge.

Andrew: Well, so we got our listeners saying “Hey, y’all,” so maybe they should start saying “Ahoy there.”

Eric: Let’s change the feedback form to manually insert “Ahoy there” at the beginning of every message.

Laura: Do it.

Andrew: We could do that.

Laura: Or, hear me out – hear me out – what about “Ahoy, y’all”?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Ooh, that’s flying a little too close to the sun, Laura. That’s playing with fire.

Lexi: That’s some deep south right there.

[Everyone laughs]

Lexi: I just love the way that Bagman is described. “Made him look like an overgrown schoolboy.” You just have such a great visual picture of him there, and it makes me so sad we didn’t get him in the movie, but I’m not going to go down that hole. And there’s the haggard-looking Ministry workers and they’re running around, they’re super stressed out, while he’s all like, “Well, if there’s not much for me to do!” and it’s like, we all have had that manager or we at least know of that leadership figure, right? Where it’s like, “Oh my God, everything’s on fire and you’re just walking around with a big smile on your face drinking coffee.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Everything’s fine!”

Laura: Yeah, I relate to that so much. I can’t even begin to tell you.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Nicole: I relate to the people running around screaming. That’s my vibe.

[Laura and Lexi laugh]

Micah: It’s funny, yeah, because I know, Laura, you and I can probably picture a few people that we work with that fit this to a tee.

Laura: Oh, yes.

Nicole: I do want to mention, because Ludo mentions Agatha Timms, who bet half of her shares of her eel farm on having a week-long match, and I have a lot of questions about this one sentence right here.

Andrew: Yeah, well, go ahead. Question number one, her age?

Laura: Yeah, no, I mean, it feels really icky to me, because if you’re talking about a child betting the shares of her eel farm, I’m imagining a child betting their shares in their ant farm that they have in their bedroom at home or something.

Eric: Or Crayola crayons in their box.

Laura: Yeah, it’s just so exploitive of a child. And it’s one thing to do this with teenagers, right? Because you can argue that they’re of an age where they can reasonably understand the rules of gambling as it were. But not a kid, man. That’s just gross.

Nicole: I love that you went to the kid land because I was like, “This is a grownup. This is a grownup woman who just has an eel farm.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, they do use the word “young.” Bagman does use the word “young,” right, in the text, so I think that’s why…

Nicole: That’s true.

Lexi: I thought he used “little.” I think he uses “little.”

Andrew: Oh, little?

Lexi: So I was under the impression that she was like a Flitwick sort of little.

Andrew and Laura:: Ohh.

Laura: So she’s small of stature, but not necessarily a child.

Lexi: That was my impression. [laughs]

Eric: Well, given that we know what Bagman is doing, which is actively, as the Head of Magical Games and Sports, going around ripping people off with no intention to ever pay them back and making these bets, it is predatory. Actually, reading this chapter, I posit that Ludo Bagman is actually the most morally bankrupt character that we meet in this book, and maybe the whole series. The only people who come close are Umbridge and Mundungus Fletcher.

Nicole: So are you saying Ludo Bagman is worse morally than Umbridge? This is a hot take, Eric.

Eric: Well, that’s why I started off saying “this book.” But he’s pretty morally depraved.

Nicole: I would agree.

Eric: He’s in the top three of the whole series.

Andrew: Just this whole gambling thing does not sit right with me in general. The fact that Ludo is doing this in front of Arthur, too, and even Arthur is like, “No, I don’t think Molly would be happy with this,” he still presses forward.

Eric: And he got them their tickets. So he’s making a bet; he knows he’s going to rip off the Weasley twins for all of their money, literally turning out all of their pockets in front of their father, and Bagman was the one that gave them their tickets to the Cup. That’s like, “Hello, let me lead you to the slaughterhouse, and then I will take all of your money.” There’s so much that’s wrong about this, not to mention the conflict of interest because he’s the Department Head of Magical Games and Sports and he’s going around, but he should be forbidden from placing bets.

Lexi: I never thought of that.

Laura: Yeah, especially since… and Micah, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I mean, there’s always the possibility of an athletic match being rigged, right? And so what if that was the case here, and if Bagman knew exactly what the outcome was going to be, and he was doing this specifically to take advantage of people?

Micah: Sure. Yeah, I think it certainly raises ethical questions, to your point, to Eric’s point, especially because he is directly responsible for putting on this event. He should not be in a betting pool. He could have insider information that could directly impact the outcome of the match, and/or lead him to making more money for himself. Now, the piece that isn’t clear, at least right now, is if he stands to gain anything from this pool. Is he just organizing the pool? Or does he actually have money in the pool himself where he could win or he could lose as a result of that? And yeah, it just doesn’t seem like something a Ministry official should be doing.

Nicole: I’m assuming he has a lot on the line here because of how much the goblin trouble gives him later, to the point where he just gives Fred and George vanishing money. So I feel like he’s trying to keep whatever he can to himself from… I mean, whether it’s ethical or not… none of this is ethical on his part, but whether he’s taking portions knowingly by the external parties, or he’s taking portions unknowingly by the external parties, some shady stuff is going on with our guy Ludo.

Micah: Yeah, and I can say from my own experience, I have to take a specific gambling training at work because of the nature of my job. The only thing I can do is I can be in a fantasy league, but that fantasy league cannot result in any kind of financial or other beneficial gain for me, should I end up winning it at the end of the season.

Eric: Here’s a quick name origin on Ludo Bagman. Ludo is a shortened form of Ludwig, and it translates, in German and Flemish origins, Ludo means “famous fighter.” So for a former Quidditch player, that’s huge. And a “bag man” is an agent who collects or distributes the proceeds of illicit activities.

Andrew: Sometimes these names are very on the nose. [laughs]

Micah: Is he same category as Mundungus Fletcher in our minds?

Laura: I think so.

Eric: But again, morally bankrupt. Really no repercussions. The only difference is status.

Laura: Former Quidditch player, Ministry official.

Lexi: Had the ends to be able to get into the Ministry in the first place.

Andrew: In terms of the betting with the twins, the twins actually do get their bet right.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: Lexi actually has a point in here that I agree with. I don’t think, looking back on it, the prediction was all that hard to come by. If you know the sport, I actually think it’s a really smart pick, actually.

Lexi: I agree, because we know that Ireland’s Chasers are absolutely legendary, and then we know that Krum really carries the other team there. So it makes sense. I mean, yes, it is absolutely still a big risk there, but I think it’s brilliant on their part.

Nicole: Well, I will say… so the author did address this, because someone at the Leaky Cauldron in 2005 – I went down my own little rabbit hole trying to find the answer to this question – she addressed it with saying, “It was a risk. They risked everything on it. That is Fred and George, isn’t it? They are always the risk-takers of the family.” I was not as in the camp of “Oh yeah, this makes a lot of sense for them.” I was like, “Who has illicit Time-Turners?”

[Everyone laughs]

Nicole: “Who’s got a connection to Krum?” All of these backend… here I am on my unhinged theory train.

[Lexi laughs]

Nicole: But hearing you say that, Lex, I’m like, “Oh, that actually does make a lot more sense now.” [laughs] Maybe they don’t have an illicit Time-Turner.

Eric: Are Fred and George time-traveling Dumbledore?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Well, and I mean, look, they’re smart guys. I mean, they open up a very successful business. Even Ludo is very impressed with the wand that they show him, and he said he hasn’t seen a prank one like this in years. So they’re smart; they know what they’re doing. I mean, I would not put it past them that they would one day become professional sports bettors. That does seem very them.

Nicole: [tearfully] Not Fred, though.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Nicole: Sorry.

Laura: RIP.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Any other points about gambling anybody wants to bring up? Otherwise we could probably move on.

Lexi: It’s not so much about the betting, but I did want to raise a question. I’ve always been curious about the incident Arthur helped Ludo with that made him gift Arthur ten tickets to the top box. That is ten VIP tickets in the most prestigious spot of this 100,000 seat stadium. And I get that it’s for the story; Harry and company, they can’t have the nosebleed sections where they can’t see anything. And we need to interact with these important characters in the story, the Malfoys, Fudge, see Krum up close. But my goodness, what did Ludo get into? And more importantly, what did Arthur get him out of that got ten VIP tickets?

Eric: That’s a good question.

Laura: It goes to show that Arthur may not be as squeaky clean as we perceive him to be.

Nicole: He did make a flying car, which was not cool. [laughs]

Eric: The point I was going to make was that we can totally see Ludo Bagman getting into trouble that has to do with illegal activities, malice, not trying to do the right thing, but I would only ever see Mr. Weasley, even if it’s helping a friend or a colleague out of a spot of trouble, stopping short basically of breaking any rules, besides the very unique circumstance of the car.

Micah: Yeah, but he is kind of a rule breaker. And Eric, wasn’t it you on one of the previous shows that talked about how he’s got a bit of Fred and George in him? Or maybe Fred and George have a little bit of Arthur?

Eric: I think Fred and George, yeah.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Okay, wait, I have a theory based on what we’re discussing here. Arthur made this flying invisible car, okay? Ludo said “Ahoy” at the top of this conversation.

[Lexi and Nicole laugh]

Andrew: What if Ludo is a sailor, his boat was sinking, and Arthur can fix and build boats as well? Maybe Arthur built him a boat!

Eric: Oh my God.

Nicole: You have been on the Empyrean TikTok!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Hey, this crazy stuff happens in the Harry Potter world too.

Nicole: I love it. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Lexi: I absolutely love it. I just had to throw that question out there because it has been eating at me for years. What did Arthur do to get ten VIP tickets to this thing?

Andrew: Created one heck of a boat.

[Nicole laughs]

Eric: Not only have I never thought to ask that question, I’ve never seen it asked before. So mad props. Mad, mad props.

Laura: Seriously.

Andrew: [laughs] All right, so let’s turn our attention to Crouch. Kind of a… well, really the opposite of Bagman. And he, unlike Ludo, followed the rule of dressing like a Muggle at the Quidditch World Cup. He’s an older man who looks so much like a Muggle that Harry thinks even Vernon would be fooled. Now, a big angle of this scene with Crouch is Percy’s relationship with him. Crouch fanboy Percy offers him a cup of tea, to which Crouch says, “Thank you, Weatherby.”

Nicole: Tough.

Andrew: Talk about a Crouchy Ouchy. That hurts.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I really think that needs to be the episode title.

Eric: Crouchy Ouchy.

Andrew: Either that or “Ahoy, y’all.”

Eric: Oh my God.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Ahoy, y’all! It’s a Crouchy Ouchy.

[Nicole laughs]

Eric: I feel so sad. Of course, Fred and George… this is all the ammunition that Fred and George need for the next eight years of torment for Percy.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: The idea that you finally are in the presence of this man that Percy won’t stop kissing his…

Andrew: Tookus?

Micah: Behind.

Eric: … ahoy. But you totally… wait, what was it, Micah?

Micah: I said “behind.” Andrew said “tookus.”

Andrew: What’s the backside of a boat? A stern?

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: The poop deck?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The fact that, yes, Percy wouldn’t stop kissing Crouch’s poop deck? That doesn’t sound right.

[Lexi and Nicole laugh]

Eric: And he can’t remember his name. And here’s the thing, it’s funny, and it’s sad. Because I think some aspect… we’ve all experienced maybe this situation, where you’re really passionate but you don’t necessarily get the respect that you deserve or you don’t get really acknowledged. For his boss… Percy is one of his direct reports, or a secretary, whatever, but he still doesn’t remember his name, or gets it wrong. That’s really hurtful. You feel simultaneously bad for Percy, and then every one of his siblings is there to pounce on it? Basically, it’s honestly a DEFCON 5 scenario.

Micah: It’s worst case scenario, right? And I think for Percy, he isn’t as important as he makes himself out to be, so much so that his boss doesn’t even call him by the proper name. And I think he’s exposed in the worst possible way, just given the fact of how we’ve seen him behave up until this point. And what’s even worse is despite the slight, Percy continues to defend Crouch when the conversation turns to the secrecy surrounding the Triwizard Tournament, and that’s, of course, when Fred calls him Weatherby. Of course it’s Fred, because Fred is always the one who does that.

Eric: Always Fred.

Laura: Yeah. Ugh, Fred, why are you so mean? I find this to be particularly embarrassing for Percy because Barty Crouch clearly knows Arthur… [laughs]

Eric and Micah:: Right.

Laura: … and knows his last name, and sees a young red-haired man who he works with there with Arthur. Even if you didn’t know immediately that he was Arthur Weasley’s son, you could put two and two together and be like, “Oh, I’ve been calling this kid the wrong name for the last three months. Oops.”

Nicole: Here’s what I will say. I think that this says… it’s supposed to say a lot about Percy and his all importance and stuff like that, but I do also think it’s supposed to say a lot about Crouch and how he thinks of and treats the people beneath him, setting us up for the Winky stuff. And it’s just supposed to give us a big ol’ “Hmm.” You know how it’s like, “Never date a guy who’s bad to a waiter” or “mean to a waiter”? I feel like this is this version of that.

Laura: It’s great advice.

Eric: Yes, this is the upcoming Sirius quote, as well. “Look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

Lexi: Some advice he should take himself.

Micah: Right. And then you could get into a whole conversation about looking at them as inferiors to begin with. So is that line by Sirius a good one in truth?

Eric: Yeah, we’ll see.

Lexi: True.

Micah: What’s interesting, though, too, is that Slughorn behaves very much the same way in Half-Blood Prince towards Ron, right? He can never remember his name. And whether it’s intentional or not, it’s still a huge sign of disrespect. We talked about “Weasley” is not that hard of a name to pronounce or remember, and Crouch doesn’t seem like the dickish type, to the point that was just brought up; I just think he could care less about Percy and has more important things to worry about.

Eric: I think the second half of that is true, where he’s so stressed. This is why Percy wants to mollify him and is always offering him tea and is stumbling over himself trying to fix things, is because Percy, I think, to some degree is an empath, and to some degree is trying to account for how busy Crouch is. So Percy has put himself in a thankless position, but Crouch really is distracted, because if you were Barty Crouch and you knew that there’s a woman out there that knows that your son did not die in Azkaban like everyone thinks, and you have nothing but a thin Memory Charm protecting that secret from sinking you at any minute, and that woman’s gone missing, you’d be a little freaked out as well. And then the Head of the Department that’s supposed to be looking for her is going around placing bets, shouting about Quidditch in front of Muggles and doesn’t care about finding her? You’d be a little stressed out too. So I don’t necessarily think that it’s that Crouch is a bad dude at all. I mean, keeping in mind whatever happens in the future chapters; it’s been forever since I’ve read. But I just think that he’s terrified and really is distracted.

Laura: Yeah, and we were talking about name origins for Ludo Bagman; let’s talk about Crouch. I mean, to crouch is to be in a defensive posture, and that is where we see this character the entire book.

Micah: Mic drop. [laughs]

Lexi: Eric, you had mentioned… you have Bertha Jorkins right there. And of course, we remember her her from Chapter 1 when Voldemort and Wormtail were talking about her, and it’s so great. It’s such a casual reference about her, and us as readers are really perking up, right? Bagman knows that she has the memory like a “leaky cauldron,” which is at odds with the schoolgirl that Sirius remembers. And it’s such a nice little hint to that Memory Charm that Crouch placed on her, and the damage that it did. And Crouch keeps pressuring Bagman to search for her because he’s worried about her disappearance and what that means for the secret he covered up, exactly what you were just saying there. And he’s probably like, “Hey, we need to keep an eye on her,” and now that she’s disappeared, it makes absolute sense that he wants to find her in hindsight. And I just have to ask, however, why is it Bagman’s job to find her? There is a Department of Magical Law Enforcement. And why is Bagman, the Head of the Sports Department, in charge? He needs to give the green light for his employee to be found? To even be searched for?

Nicole: I want to be Ludo Bagman’s employee because I can just, like, yeet for three weeks.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: On his boat.

Nicole: No one would care. That’d be pretty cool. I guess PTO is just not really a thing.

Lexi: I just find that so fascinating. Why does Bagman have to be looking for her? I mean, he should care, but it’s not really his job to find her. It’s a different department that should be looking for her simply as a missing person in general.

Eric: That’s a fair, fair point. I like to think that if there was law enforcement that came to Bagman and asked him, though, his dismissiveness of it would keep them at bay for a little while. If Bagman were, when asked, to characterize her as being like, “That’s a little unusual. She has been a little confused in the past, but is mostly really good. I’m worried.” Instead he’s like, “Oh, pfft, she’ll show up,” or whatever, and the law enforcement then doesn’t have that extra impetus to really search for her.

Lexi: That is a fantastic point.

Micah: Bagman is the type of individual, the less responsibility the better. If he doesn’t have to worry about a missing employee, he doesn’t have to worry about a missing employee.

Nicole: He doesn’t even know he should!

Micah: It’s his attitude. It’s who he is.

Lexi: All right, that gives me some peace there.

Andrew: For now.

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]


Odds & Ends


Andrew: So the chapter does end with them heading to the Cup itself. Let’s get into some odds and ends. A forthcoming major event is once again hinted at, and this time we learn it’s going to be happening at Hogwarts, so that’s a new development. And Fred asks Arthur for more information, but dad and Percy – or Weatherby – don’t offer him any clues. Ron also is fangirling over Krum.

Lexi: I love how Hermione comments that he looks grumpy and it’s like, “Oh, don’t worry, girl. He won’t be grumpy with you.”

Eric: Aww.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We mentioned this earlier too; I just wanted to shout out, again, lots of color in terms of what it’s like to live amongst wizards. We are getting a lot of wizarding world world-building, which was really nice to see.

Nicole: Well, shouts to our welcome crew, Basil and another wizard who’s unnamed. But the wizard who’s unnamed is wearing thigh high galoshes, which I needed to look up. That is thigh high rubber boots. What a look.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, that’s just typical Muggle attire, right?

Nicole: I would wear that. Ten out of ten.

Lexi: With a kilt and a poncho.

Eric: I would wear it if I were wading in a river.

[Lexi and Micah laugh]

Laura: Also, we get a call-out to other wizarding schools for the first time in this chapter. We hear about Bill’s old pen pal from Brazil, who I guess sent him a cursed hat, I think because Bill couldn’t go to visit him in Brazil. And it’s just clear that the international flair of the Quidditch World Cup is meant to set up for this year’s events at Hogwarts and for the Triwizard Tournament and two new schools coming into the picture.

Micah: Yeah, and it continues the world building that we’ve talked about, opening Harry’s eyes to the fact that there’s more than just Hogwarts out there. And the first three books were very much like, this is it. It’s Hogwarts. Harry gets on the train, or he flies a car, or he gets on the bus, and he goes. Now it’s like, hey, there’s this whole other world out there with so much other cool stuff to explore.

Lexi: And then I just want to give a shout-out to my fellow families of small children. I have two very young ones and I just felt so seen rereading this now, because hey, my children also wake up at the crack of dawn. So it’s just a nice little nod to us parents.

Eric: Aww.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Do they play with wands too? Do they steal your wand?

Nicole: Not yet.

Lexi: I was going to say, I wish, but not with the wands. I do wish, however, that we had the little mini flying brooms, and how they just race. I just thought that was the cutest little thing and I just want to get my son one of those so badly.

Laura: I know.

Andrew: I was disturbed by the child getting a hold of Dad’s wand. I mean, that seems like that could cause a world of problems.

Micah: Wasn’t there a lawsuit recently about that?

[Andrew and Lexi laugh]

Micah: No, I’m serious.

Andrew: There was some sort of lawsuit. TMZ reported on it; a wand, I don’t know, poked an eye out or something. [laughs] Oh, yeah. “Warner Bros. sued over Harry Potter wand: It impaled my kid’s eye!” I mean, anything can do that.

[Lexi and Nicole laugh]

Lexi: That’s not funny. I’m sorry. But it is funny, but it’s not funny.

Nicole: I should not laugh either.

Micah: Hashtag better parenting. Well, we mentioned Perkins; we mentioned Mrs. Figg; we also get a mention of Bode the Unspeakable, and I say, “Hey, it was nice seeing you. We’ll catch up in Order of the Phoenix.”

Eric: For me – talk about deep dives or things that send you on them – I looked up what lumbago is because I was like, “What’s that?” Turns out, it’s something that many of us suffer from and never knew it: lower back pain.

Andrew: Ah, makes sense.

Nicole: Wow. I feel so seen right now.

Eric: That is why Perkins cannot make it all the way to the Cup, because of lower back pain. Unbelievable. And speaking of characters that we will meet or hear about later, Seamus Finnigan’s mother is here. And famously, Seamus and Harry clash because of his mother and the growing threat around Hogwarts; we know that she does not support Dumbledore. But at the Quidditch World Cup, she’s thrilled to be flying the colors of Ireland, which I assume is just kind of green. But yes, it’s fun to pop by her.

Lexi: The fact that on all this land, and all these hundreds of tents, there is only one tap marked on the other side of the field, so our trio has to walk quite a distance, stand in a long line, fill up their pots and pans, and then dredge on back. And I’m just going to say, I’m a Muggle, and I wouldn’t want to do that. I would definitely be one of those witches who would just pretend like I’m not doing magic, but I would totally be doing magic. [laughs]

Eric: Aguamenti that.

Micah: So literally when I was reading this… I don’t know if anybody else watches Survivor.

Andrew: Oh, I’ve gotten into it. Yes, yeah.

Micah: You have? Okay, cool. But when they have to walk to the water tap to get fresh water from the well, this very much reminded me of that. And these people are not on a deserted island somewhere in the South Pacific.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Nicole: They literally have Aguamenti. Mr. Weasley playing with matches; I mentioned this earlier, but I just can so vividly see this man having the time of his life. Who needs Disney World when you have Arthur with matches?

Andrew: They’re fun to light.

Micah: I played with matches as a kid. [laughs] I got into a lot of trouble.

Andrew: And you turned out fine!

[Lexi laughs]

Andrew: I bet you have some burn marks on your fingers, but you turned out fine other than that.

Micah: No, the other people do.

[Everyone laughs]

Lexi: I love the mention of the magic carpet as a family vehicle. I just love these familiar magical devices – from Aladdin, “A Whole New World” – just pop up like this in the story. And then, of course, the foreshadowing about all of Crouch’s ancestors. They’ve always abided strictly by the law, except, hey, he doesn’t, really, so I just love that little bit there. And lastly, to wrap us up here, I have one more little deep dive here into the world-building of our story. So Omni… Omnioculars… wow, I do not know how to say that. [laughs]

Andrew: Omnioculars is how I say it, personally.

Nicole: Omnioculars.

Lexi: Omnioculars seem very expensive for what they are. They cost 10 Galleons. And I just want to give you all a little list here of what other things in the wizarding world cost, just to give you some price comparisons here. Apparition lesson program, which is a multi-week program, it costs 12 Galleons. The Advanced Potion-Making book, that costs nine Galleons. But then a wand, the most important thing that any witch or wizard uses, it only costs seven Galleons. However, a unicorn hair that goes into the wand costs 10 Galleons, which gives me some serious questions about the profit margin, but we’ll put a pin in that for right now. So 10 Galleons equal out to about 50 pounds or $73.50. And Harry bought three of them. They never use them again. And I really just hope his friends use them when watching him in the Triwizard Tournament.

Andrew: [laughs] I have so many thoughts here. First of all, maybe the wand is very cheap maybe because it’s subsidized by the Ministry. Just a random thought that popped into my head. The Omnioculars, they’re very high tech. I mean, you can rewind, right? You can do the instant replay thing. It’s almost like buying a high-tech camera.

Micah: You can slow down.

Andrew: You can slow down time. Yeah, I think they’re very cool. It is hilarious that they use them once and then never again. It reminds me of like, you go to a concert and you buy a souvenir T-shirt or something, and half the people who buy those things never wear them again. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah. I mean, I will say, merch that is sold at events like this does tend to be overpriced. But I agree with the point, Lexi, about cost and value in the wizarding world being extremely inconsistent in general, when you think about things like… I mean, you have this perfect list; I don’t even need to come up with anything else. It just doesn’t make all that much sense when you really start breaking it down, unless Ollivander is buying supplies in bulk, and so he gets…

Lexi: Maybe.

Laura: I don’t know.

Eric: He makes his wands.

Micah: Well, it’s also another commentary on the Weasleys’ financial situation, too, right? Because Ron is somewhat embarrassed of the fact that Harry is going to buy this for him. And he turns around, and I think he says, like, “I won’t get you a Christmas present” or something along those lines, but…

Andrew: For ten years. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah. But Harry is just joking around.

Laura: No, it’s like, it’s not that serious, Harry. You’re rich. Calm down.

[Lexi laughs]

Andrew: Right. Maybe the Omnioculars say “Quidditch World Cup” on them too. That would be cool.

Laura: That would be.

Nicole: Ooh, branded.

Micah: And the year, right? Maybe, yeah. But I just feel like, having gone through this whole discussion, that it was really done such a disservice in the movies. I know we get a few seconds early on of being able to see the bit of diversity we see at the Quidditch World Cup, but it seems like for a TV show adaptation, they can do so much better. And one of the moments I’m really looking forward to is when the trail lights up, going to the actual Quidditch World Cup. I feel like that would be so fun to see on screen.

Nicole: The fact that they spent two seconds on “I love magic,” and not two seconds on anything else that they could have done.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Listen, once you start playing that game, there’s no going back.

[Lexi and Nicole laugh]

Nicole: Too late. It’s too late.

Andrew: That was turned into a gif that’s been used again and again online. It’s a meme and it’s priceless.

Micah: That’s true.

Nicole: It’s the gift that keeps on giving.

Andrew: Yeah, you can’t put a price on that. [laughs]

Eric: I like that moment.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: All right, well, this has been a lot of fun, and now it’s time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And I’m going to give it to Crouch for calling Percy “Weatherby.” I think it’s pretty funny and puts him in his place.

Eric: My MVP also goes to Crouch, but this time for pressuring Bagman to do something about Bertha’s disappearance. Barty is kind of annoyed by him, but good for him.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Bagman for giving young readers their first introduction to that annoying, useless, “Fake it until you make it” coworker.

Micah: Nice. No surprise, I’m giving it to Archie for liking a healthy breeze around his privates and not caring who knows it. To that I say: Be you, Archie. Be you.

Lexi: Oh man, that was mine too. That might be one of my favorite little random moments of the whole series. But mine is going to be Fred and George because of the bet that they made and how this is their first business attempt to get money. Big risk, big reward, and it worked.

Nicole: And I’m going to go with the wizarding tents, because unlike Laura, I am not a camper in the slightest.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Nicole: But this is the type of camping that would actually convince me to mingle with the outdoors.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Andrew: I was gifted a camping tent two years ago, three years ago, and it’s yet to be opened. It really just needs to go on eBay at this point. Laura, would you like my camping tent?

Laura: I was going to say, send it to me. I’ll use it.

Andrew: I’ll throw a MuggleCast beanie in there. You’ll be warm in the tent over the whole visit.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Oh my gosh. It’s not like I already have four of them, but sure.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I don’t know. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or by using our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. And next week, we will discuss Goblet of Fire Chapter 8, “The Quidditch World Cup.”


Quizzitch


Andrew: And speaking of Quidditch, now it’s time for our weekly trivia game, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Yes, we took a few weeks off, so we got a lot of entries this week. Last week’s question was: According to Percy Weasley, about how many languages does Mr. Crouch speak? The correct answer was over 200.

Andrew: All right, so I believe it’s my turn to do the names, right?

Eric: I think so, yes. Please, Andrew, be our guest here.

Andrew: Now here’s how you do it. This is how you move quickly through the list. [clears throat] Last week’s winners: HallowWolf; Hermione4ever; PeanutOnABroomStick; No Diggory I got to bag it up; Oliviathehufflepuff; Remembralls are fun but Accio is quicker; Luke the 12 year old; Micah tricked us again even though I like Famous Amos…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: … MMRTG a.k.a Multi-Mission Radiostope Thermoelectric Generator I just wrote that to make you say it…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: [takes a deep breath] … Dobby stole my socks; Elizabeth K… one normal name, excellent. Andrew Sims canceled for magical creature cruelty read more on page six; SoltheSoulSucker; Percy Weatherby; Am I going crazy or is Eric slacking by giving everyone else the job of reading Quizzitch names… yes. Barty we hardly knew ye; Barty is a Duolingo maven says Percy; Carly; Cedric dies and becomes a sparkly vampire…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: … WhoIsBabysittingCrookshanks; There no one else Percy would Weather-by; and Weatherbitch, where’s my tea?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s the first and last time I’m doing that, even though that was fun. That was fun, though.

Lexi: I have questions. [laughs]

Laura: You did well.

Andrew: This segment started as a nice thing where, “Oh, congratulations to Anna, Laura, Mark,” and then slowly one person after the other started coming up with a surprising nickname, and now that’s what it’s devolved into. And they’re a lot of fun to read.

Nicole: That was unhinged chaos, and I’m so here for it.

Lexi: I love it! I absolutely love that. Oh my gosh.

Andrew: [laughs] I’m glad.

Eric: Maybe we’ll do a week where people can only submit their legal names.

[Eric and Lexi laugh]

Laura: No, that’s so boring.

Andrew: You must submit your photo ID.

Eric: Yeah, photo ID along your name to play Quizzitch.

Andrew: That should go over well.

Eric: No, no, we love Quizzitch and all the people who enter it, and speaking of, here is the next week’s question: What broomstick does Harry see advertised as being “for all the family” at the Quidditch World Cup? And submit your answer to us on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or go to the MuggleCast website and click on “Quizzitch” from the top nav bar. Thank you so much.

Andrew: Nicole and Lexi, this has been amazing. Thank you for joining us. This was so fun.

Nicole: Thank you for having us.

Lexi: Yes, thank you.

Andrew: Thank you for all the theories, all the research, all the energy. It was perfect. Where can we find Fantasy Fangirls online?

Nicole: We are on every podcasting platform if you search “Fantasy Fangirls,” and a lot of people like watching us on YouTube because apparently we make crazy facial expressions, so we are on there as well, also at Fantasy Fangirls.

Lexi: And you can find us at Fantasy Fangirls.com. We are also very active on TikTok and Instagram at @FantasyFangirlsPod.

Andrew: Awesome. Yeah, y’all are killing it on TikTok in particular; that’s where I see you, at least. Oh my gosh, just well done. Very well done. It’s hard to grow a podcast these days; it’s an issue a lot of people struggle to figure out, and you two just killed it with the TikTok and Instagram, the social media posts that you do.

Eric: Congratulations on your success.

Nicole: We sacrificed the right goat to the TikTok algorithm gods. That’s how I feel.

[Lexi laughs]

Eric: Ohh.

Nicole: That’s how this has worked out in the last ten weeks.

Micah: I’m just going to say, it’s a very good thing that you saved sacrificing a goat to the end of the show as opposed to bring it up earlier on.

Eric: Yeah, we love goats here.

[Lexi laughs]

Nicole: Oh, thank God. Okay, good. Glad to close it out.

Eric: We have stuffed goats nearby. There’s always a stuffed goat.

Andrew: It’s another running joke here on MuggleCast.

Laura: They’re our mascot. [laughs]

Eric: That’s what I had to do to become famous on TikTok? Just kill this guy? I don’t think I could do it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Nicole: Sometimes it’s not worth fame. It’s fine.

[Lexi laughs]

Andrew: No, I mean, in all seriousness, I think you two could teach some sort of masterclass or online course on growing a podcast through TikTok.

Laura: For sure.

Andrew: Chef’s kiss on how you’ve done that. We’re impressed.

Nicole: Thank you. That means a lot.

Lexi: Thank you.

Andrew: I think I’m going to hop on Fantasy Fangirls in the next month or something like that, so listeners, stay tuned for that. We’ll talk about Fourth Wing and crossover there with the world of Harry Potter. Couple reminders before we wrap up on our end, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and to contact us. And don’t forget, the MuggleCast and Millennial overstock store is now open; MuggleMillennial.etsy.com is where you can get one-of-a-kind MuggleCast gifts while supplies last, and the next two weeks is the time to order if you want Santa Andrew and Eric to get your gift there before Christmas. Him and I are the ones shipping this stuff out. If you enjoy MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show. And we would also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. We’d also appreciate your support on Patreon, Patreon.com/MuggleCast, or if you’re an Apple Podcasts subscriber, you can tap into the show and hit subscribe, and you’ll get ad-free and early access to each episode. All right, that does it. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Nicole: I’m Nicole.

Lexi: And I’m Lexi.

Andrew: Bye, everyone. Thanks again, Fantasy Fangirls.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Transcript #636

 

MuggleCast 636 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #636, You Are Boot-iful (GOF Chapter 6, The Portkey)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Grab your dirtiest boots that you’re willing to part with, because this week we are diving into Goblet of Fire Chapter 6, “The Portkey.” This week’s episode is also being released Thanksgiving week here in America, so Happy Thanksgiving. We’re thankful for y’all.

Eric: Do you know what I’m thankful for, Andrew? I’m thankful for all of these fun intros we have here going on.

Laura: Same.

Micah: And welcome back, Andrew.

Andrew: Thanks. I’m thankful to not be sick tonight, so I’m thankful for that as well. Let’s pretend we were in the wizarding world and turkeys didn’t exist. What would be on the big platter in the center of the table instead of a turkey in the wizarding world?

Eric: I’ve got something.

Laura: I’ve got a dark thing.

Micah: Look, this might not be a popular opinion. And we’re on Thursday night recordings now, so this is slightly unhinged. But I’m going to go with owls.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There’s plenty of them.

Laura: Oh my God.

Andrew: A big ol’ owl for you.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: It wasn’t so much the shock of you saying owls, Micah; it was you saying, “There’s plenty of them” as if to justify.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Are there plenty of them? I don’t know if I would say that.

Eric: I do get where you’re coming from, though, right? Because there’s a turkey surplus, except for the one that gets a pardon every year. Isn’t that something they tell…? Because you can hunt animals that there’s a surplus of.

Andrew: There’s a good supply of turkeys this year. The price of turkeys is actually down this year. That’s a fact. That’s true.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah, I would go with a baby hippogriff. Because obviously, a hippogriff is going to be way too big, so a newborn. [laughs] This sounds so bad.

Eric: Somebody has to kill it. [laughs]

Laura: Andrew, I just want you to know Evanna Lynch is never going to come on our show again.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Forget about the Protego Foundation. Forget about all of these allies that we’ve built up over these years. Asking this question is a no-no.

Micah: So Andrew, I’m curious: Do you bow to it before you slit its throat, or after?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Laura: Oh my God.

Andrew: Okay, I would not be doing this myself. I would be… ugh.

Eric: You pay somebody to do it.

Andrew: This is so grim for a wholesome Thanksgiving episode.

Eric: I had a cute one, which was going to be… it’s still sad.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: But you know those little birds that can appear and disappear, the Diricawl?

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: So they’re short and pudgy, but I imagine that maybe one if it got too big, it would be a little slow and couldn’t Disapparate in time, so they’d catch it. And that would be the equivalent of a Thanksgiving turkey. Plus, because it’s bigger, it would feed a family. So I can imagine it being a Diricawl.

Andrew: Oh, man. Okay, I like that. How about you, Laura?

Laura: So I feel like if we’re thinking about the wizarding world in 2023 terms, I would like to think that at this point, the wizarding world has caught up with the meatless protein phenomenon that we have here in the Muggle world.

Andrew: This part’s for Evanna and all of our vegetarian listeners.

Eric: Laura single-handedly saving our allies and our alliances.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I know, I’m over here trying to dig us out of this hole, because I was like, “Oh my God, she’s never going to want to come here again.” [laughs]

Eric: It’s a thankless job, but thank you.

Laura: Yeah, you’re welcome. But yeah, I mean, so I will say, initially, I was thinking dark on this one too. I was like, “What about the qilin?” [laughs]

Andrew: The qilin, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, because you could just say maybe that can kill two birds with one stone, you know?

Andrew: [laughs] I see what you did there. Yeah, I like that idea too. There could be a Beyond Meat version of hippogriff meat. I don’t know what hippogriff meat would taste like, or any of these would taste like, but there could be a rip-off, a fake alternative.

Eric: Maybe it’s made from dirigible plums. They do have a use, like plum base… you know how seitan…?

Micah: No, that’s like a side that I don’t want to taste.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: No, okay, okay. Well, you know what? I have another one, though. I think I have the best answer, besides Laura’s very obviously, superior meat-free. The Occamy. You know how it grows to fit the size of whatever it’s in? So you’d only need one, and it could feed the whole wizarding world. You just put it in a big cathedral or something, and then it fills the space, and then you’re like, “Okay, thank you. We give thanks.” And then that’d be it.

Andrew: That is a beautiful one.

Laura: Well, and then, Eric, you just made me think of Gamp’s Laws of Elemental Transfiguration, right? That’s what it’s called. And how you can’t create food from nothing, but you can duplicate food if you already have some. So maybe the most realistic answer here is to say yes, we do have that Diricawl, that hippogriff, whatever, but we only have one, and we just multiply it and give everyone one.

Eric: In fact, in the wizarding world, Thanksgiving is the most beast-honoring day because there’s just one beast…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … and they’re like, “This year, we’ve picked the Occamy. This year, we’ve…” and they’re like, “Thank you,” and then they ship it around the world. I think we saved it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Look, I’m just thinking that… look at Errol in the series. He’s on his way out.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Are you about to say he’s useless, so…?

Eric: Micah is still like, “If we have to kill one bird, it’s got to be that pathetic one.”

Micah: But there is an interesting point that was brought up in the Discord by Erica, who said the conversation made her realize that I don’t think we ever see any wizards eating the meat of magical creatures in the books. It’s always your traditional pork, chicken, beef that we all are accustomed to.

Eric: That’s true. At Hogwarts they don’t serve magical animal products as food.

Andrew: So maybe there is an agreement that those beasts are not to be hunted and eaten.

Eric: Maybe the house-elves refuse to do it.

Andrew: Oh, that would make sense too. Interesting.

Eric: Like a magical creature cannot carve up another magical creature.

Micah: Let’s be real, they don’t have much choice in anything.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: No, they do not have any choice. This is all grim and sad and not at all… we opened with dirty boots; I thought that was awesome. I thought that was a peak. Now I’m just bummed out.

Andrew: And we’re thankful for you all. Let’s just delete this whole section. This is too sad and upsetting.

Eric: Okay, this is going away forever. No one will ever know this happened.

Andrew: I apologize. This was my idea. I should have been sick again this week, I think.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: No, no, no.

Micah: I think it was fine.

Eric: Aww, we never said that.

Andrew: [laughs] I’m just kidding.

Laura: No, no, no, I think it’s great.

Andrew: All right. Well, let’s move out of this subject. Hope everybody who is celebrating has a nice Thanksgiving. Because of Thanksgiving, it falls on a Thursday; that is our new recording day, so we will be off next week. However, we have plenty of bonus MuggleCast installments available over on our Patreon, and in fact, after today’s episode, we’re going to record a new one. Right, Micah? What’s on tap?

Micah: Yeah, so one of the things that I thought would be fun to talk about as we’re reading Goblet of Fire is that back in the day, we were all just youngins working for MuggleNet. One of the most exciting things was always learning what the new title was going to be for the upcoming book. However, there’s a number of different options that were on the table for every book. Let’s face it; “Goblet of Fire” was not the first choice for this book. So we’re going to have a little bit of fun talking about what was the initial choice and some of the other options that were on the table for the fourth book, so it’ll be a good time. Good discussion. We’ll reminisce a bit about our times working for MuggleNet too.

Andrew: So you can check that out at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. And you can get this bonus audio content within your favorite podcast app, including Spotify; that’s a relatively recent addition. We can’t do this show without your support. So thank you to everybody who supports us on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. By the way, one of our listeners who’s listening live on Patreon tonight, Liza, says the Thanksgiving conversation was genuinely hilarious and she’s vegan. So we’ve got the approval of at least one vegan.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Safe, I think.

Eric: Phew, okay.

Laura: I hope you know I was half joking.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Oh, and Liza also points out that Evanna said she’s dating a non-vegan on the last episode of The ChickPeeps, so I think we’re in the clear, y’all. We can rest easy this holiday season.

Eric: Yeah, it’s not make or break with the relationship. Well, let’s be sure to send her a card anyway.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yes, a card with AI art that shows a baby hippogriff on a Thanksgiving dinner table.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: That’s the fastest way to get cancelled, actually.

Andrew: So a little reminder, too: We announced this last week, the MuggleCast overstock store is now open. If you’ve ever wanted one of our cool physical gifts that we send to patrons, but maybe you don’t support us on Patreon, we are selling leftover physical gifts from years past, including the MuggleCast beanie – that’s our newest one – the sweet 16 wood car, album art signed by the four of us, T-shirts, socks, and more. This is the MuggleCast and Millennial overstock store; that’s the podcast that Laura and I do. Visit MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com, or you can click the link in the show notes to see the store and purchase your favorites. And once these are gone, these are gone. We are not making these again, so please check them out. Great holiday gift idea, by the way. Maybe you would like one of these on your holiday list. Here you go; send people a link to the store.

Eric: If I didn’t have 50 of them burning a hole in my back porch, the MuggleCast wood car.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: It’s still one of the most creative gifts we’ve ever given, and it’s fun to assemble. I had fun doing the instructions and a little video where you can watch it happen. Also, they’re infinitely customizable; you can paint these things!

Micah: I was actually going to say the beanie. I think that just given the time of year, most folks are facing a little bit of colder weather. And even if you’re not, if you live in a warm place, the AC gets turned up too high…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … throw your beanie on. Wear it at night when you go to bed.

Andrew: It’s started getting colder here, and I’m actually using the beanie now. And darn, that thing is comfortable. That is a cozy beanie.

Laura: It really is.

Andrew: Don’t miss out on that beanie. Now Eric is wearing it himself.

Eric: It sure is.

Micah: Eric is modeling it.

Eric: Here we go. Keep warm.

Andrew: It’s really nice. Don’t miss out. That’s perfect for Christmas.

Micah: I’ve actually gotten a lot of compliments on it, too, from colleagues who’ve seen it.

Andrew: Oh, cool!

Laura: I was going to recommend the socks, personally. The knit on them is so nice. And they also have our classic iPod shadow design on them from the very first T-shirt we ever came out with, so those are really nice and well made too.

Andrew: MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com. Don’t miss out on these lovely gifts. So before we start, we are doing Goblet of Fire Chapter 6, “The Portkey” today, and we would be remiss if we did not mention that the Goblet of Fire movie was released 18 years ago this week.

Eric and Laura: Wow.

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: You know what that means? It’s the 18th anniversary of “Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Come on!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yes. This is the 18th anniversary of our first live podcast in New York City.

Eric: Very cool. Very cool.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: So as always, we will start this installment of Chapter by Chapter with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: The…

Laura: … Quidditch…

Micah: … World…

Eric: … is…

Andrew: … excited…

Laura: … regarding…

Micah: … Voldemort.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, okay. Wow.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: All right. Happy Thanksgiving, once again, everybody.

[Micah laughs]

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Eric: And which one of these are we going to review at the end of the book?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: This one.

Micah: Hey, there are a lot of chapters still to go.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s true. This is only Chapter 6.

Eric: All right.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Laura: Let’s get into our chapter. Specifically, I want to start out this week’s discussion by talking about wizarding modes of transport. We hear quite a bit about this from Arthur Weasley, as he’s explaining how people are getting to the Quidditch World Cup. And I think we learn a little bit more about the ways that wizards travel, right? We’re familiar with brooms and the Hogwarts Express and the Floo Network at this point, but in this chapter, we’re learning a couple of other ways that magical folk get around. First of all, it is noted that 100,000 people come from around the world to the Quidditch World Cup. And I’ll confess, when I read this, when I reread it, I was surprised, because when you think about international World Cup events and the crowds those draw, it’s millions of people who turn up for those things. But then I had to remind myself, “Well, this is a significantly smaller portion of the global population.” But it just made me wonder exactly how many magical people are there in the world?

Eric: We don’t know.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But I think that, given that there were said to be about 1,000 people at Hogwarts 25 years ago when the author was asked – and that’s even less people than were just at my high school, which is four years – if you want to, there might be some math we could do there, but it’s considerably less. And not only that, but the 100,000 people that are coming are still a huge threat to breaking the Statute of Secrecy, and so I think on days like this, the Ministry is glad there’s only 100,000 people turning up. I did do some math, and it’s only twice the size of Dodger Stadium. Dodger Stadium holds about 56,000.

Andrew: “Only” twice the size.

Micah: You raise a really good point, though, Eric, because all of this needs to be done in secrecy. It’s not like your traditional Olympics, let’s say, where people are able just to fly in from all over the world and not have to worry worry about whether or not they’re seen by other people. So that’s a major factor in all of this.

Andrew: Yeah. And I mean, I think when we were reading Goblet of Fire for the first time, it may have been harder to fathom 100,000 wizards from around the world coming in, because those are… you wouldn’t think there were that many wizards, I don’t think. But now that we’re in this post-Book 7 world where we’ve learned so much more about the wizarding world, the schools around the world, this number is easier for me to believe.

Laura: Yeah. I think as a kid, when you’re reading this, that feels like a huge number. And I mean, it is a big number. But relative to this kind of event, it seems pretty small, from our standpoint.

Andrew: That’s a good point too. Because as a child, when you’re reading this, you’ve never been to something with 100,000 people, maybe not even something with 1,000 people.

Eric and Laura: Right.

Laura: Well, to Eric’s point about the Statute of Secrecy, one of the things that the Ministry does to protect itself from the risk of exposure by all of these wizarding weirdos navigating the Muggle world to get to the Quidditch World Cup is by mandating staggered arrivals, so depending on the ticket you bought, how good your ticket was, how expensive it was, some people had to get there really early. So if you bought cheap seats, you had to get there up to two weeks before the match even started.

Eric: Is it just me or does this feel like San Diego Comic Con all over again?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Getting in line for the big Twilight panel?

Eric: Do you want to see, yeah, the Pixar panel, whatever the big panel is going to be?

Andrew: I would hate being there two weeks early. I guess you could see it as a nice peaceful camping opportunity, but other than that, this sounds like hell.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And it’s really crappy that the lower income people would have to get there two weeks early in order to attend the Cup. That is not right or fair. I see why they need to slowly have people trickle in, but still, that’s pretty poor.

Micah: That was my main point with this, is that it seems somewhat counterintuitive. To the point that Andrew is raising, you’d assume the people with cheaper tickets don’t – not in every case – but most of them wouldn’t have the means to put themselves up for two weeks somewhere.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: So forcing them to come in early is not fair.

Eric: Yeah, I think it must come down to how a lot of things in the wizarding world come free or cheaply. We were talking earlier about duplicating food, but living situations are… I’ve never heard of wizarding world real estate being an issue. I mean, if they are on a hill camping, and as long as they can conceal themselves from any Muggles that would walk by, one would think that they would be at least permitted as wizards to stay there indefinitely.

Andrew: Who has two weeks to basically camp out for the event to start? You’ve got to work, you’ve got school…

Micah: Take off work.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: That was my thing. I was like, “What about these people’s jobs? How are they supposed to go to work?”

Eric: I would argue we don’t know enough about wizarding professions. The Ministry people are probably working it, but…

Andrew: But they probably get a lot of vacation time because things are just better in the wizarding world. Here in America, it’s like, you get four days a year. In the wizarding world, it’s probably like, you get three months.

Laura: Well, I have bad news for you, Andrew; there are countries around the world where the reality that you’re describing – or excuse me, the fantasy you’re describing – is a reality.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, I know, I see a lot of Europeans doing a lot of vacationing and I’m like, “How do I get that life?” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. I was going to say, Andrew, didn’t you see the most recent email from HR? Our four days a year is actually going down to three because of costs.

Andrew: Oh, wonderful. Excellent.

Eric: Yeah, but a big thing for me… so we talked about… I completely agree it’s a class issue. Although, I do think a lot of people who had to be here for two weeks probably aren’t suffering, especially if they can Apparate in and out. It’s unclear exactly what they’re doing two weeks in advance there. It’s just a matter of, again, the Statute of Secrecy. But I want to hear right now, is this better or worse than Ticketmaster’s verified fan whole shenanigans?

Andrew: [laughs] This is actually better. This is better.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Because A, nothing is worse than verified fan, because you have no control of it. At least with getting there two weeks early, you’re like, “I’m in control. I am deciding. I’ll get there two weeks early and I’m guaranteed to get in.” Verified fan, I keep trying to get tickets to Adele in Vegas; I keep getting rejected. Keep getting waitlisted. It’s not my fault. I’m a real fan! But I can’t get the tickets. If I could camp out for two weeks, maybe I would, and then I am in control. [sings] Hello, it’s me… camping out for two weeks to guarantee myself some tickets.

Eric: It’s so low-tech, too, and it just reminds me of… God, kids these days probably wouldn’t know it. Oh, great, we’re officially old; I said “Kids these days.” [laughs] But Black Friday, where you used to see people camping out outside Best Buy the day before or overnight to be there at 7 a.m. when they open to get one of the first 500 HD TVs when they first came out. That to me must have been the inspiration for what this became in the book. It was published in 2000, so it must have been something akin to how do people deal with… or maybe the Olympics were like that too; maybe people were camping out. I really don’t know.

Andrew: My mom camped out for a Nintendo Wii.

Eric: Ooh.

Micah: I was just thinking more so along sporting lines, right? When you have these major events, usually… like in the case of the Quidditch World Cup, it would be the main event, but there’s other things that are happening around the main event, right? So if you’re there for two weeks, hopefully, there’s other things that you can take advantage of that you can go and do as a fan of Quidditch that you otherwise would never have the opportunity to do because this is an event that only happens… what is it, once every however many years? I don’t remember off the top of my head. But I would just hope there’s more fan stuff for these people to take advantage of.

Laura: Well, when we think about how people are actually getting to the World Cup, though, we’re introduced to a couple of concepts by Arthur. First thing he does is tell us that there are 200 of these things called Portkeys placed around Britain, right? These are inanimate objects that are unobtrusive, kind of unassuming looking, but they can actually transport you to a particular destination at a specific time. What I thought was so interesting about this was the I think British point of view we see here, where it’s like, “Yeah, we have 200 of these placed around Britain,” but we also know Arthur says people are coming from all around the world to do this. So it’s not just British people that are going to be traveling by Portkey. And it makes me wonder, does the British Ministry have to collaborate with other countries’ Ministries to get Portkeys set up there and link them to the Portkeys in Britain to get people where they’re going? Just seems like a logistical nightmare.

Eric: I think that the other countries, especially those that are involved in sending their teams to the Quidditch World Cup, Ireland and Bulgaria, they probably have also huge swaths of the people that are coming to represent. So given that we also see a smattering of other international people on the ground later when Harry is roaming, and there’s that guy with the magic carpets and all of this, it really does seem like the other governments would have to be helping the British Ministry just to get their own citizens to the Cup and back.

Laura: That’s also a mutual benefit, right? None of them want the International Statute of Secrecy to be breached. [laughs] Not good for anyone, no matter where you hail from. But Andrew, you had an interesting point about the Portkey’s transportation timer.

Andrew: Yeah, this chapter is our introduction to Portkeys and Apparition, and so we’re learning little details about each mode of magical transportation. And we learn in this chapter that the Portkey has a sort of transportation timer where you have to be holding it at a particular time in order for it to transport you. I do wonder if this is the best option, for it to be based around a time, because it seems like – speaking of nightmares – a safety nightmare for anyone who might accidentally pick it up. And in this chapter, I guess it’s maybe Arthur, he says, “Oh, it’s just an old boot. Nobody’s going to bother touching it.” I feel terrible for that boot. That is insulting to that boot, or any other Portkey, that it’s too ugly for somebody to even pick up to properly dispose of it in the trash can. “You are so ugly, nobody will even help clean up earth by touching you.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: I really love how you personified the boot. I did not think that’s where we were going with this conversation. [laughs]

Andrew: I’ve seen Toy Story too many times. I personify…

Eric: “I don’t wanna play with you anymore.”

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: [laughs] Right. “I don’t wanna touch you.” No, but really, let’s say the boot wasn’t worthless and untouchable in the eyes of Arthur Weasley. This is not a safe system because some Muggle could be holding it and could be transported.

Laura: Yeah. And to that point, Andrew, this is another example of Muggles being characterized as not paying enough attention to pick up on anything magical. So I was thinking the same thing. I was like, “What if some environmental group was out cleaning up rubbish out of the countryside and just happened to pick up this boot at the precise time that it travels?”

Andrew: Right. Of course, they all had a lengthy debate over who was going to dare to touch the boot, and then somebody lost the bet, and then, yeah, that poor person is transported against their will.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Trying to seek out what the real world thing to be touched on this might be. Because I do that anytime a new magical concept is introduced, like boggarts, for instance, being the monster under your bed you always feared as a kid. I think of Portkeys being… just this idea that they’re out in the middle of the countryside where no one else is, that if you ever had somebody going to the middle of nowhere where nobody else is, it feels weird. And you’re more likely, if you have a friend that went to the middle of nowhere, to come back and hear just a wild story about how they ended up somewhere unexpected and barely got back. It just seems like the wildest things happen at random and derelict buildings and things, so it seems to be maybe a mention to how some of the things Muggles might have encountered are actually Portkeys, or a wizard was supposed to be using them or forgot it was left there.

Laura: Oh, I kind of love that.

Micah: Right. It’s reminiscent of “One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: At least the lens through which this is all being written in that, of course, a Muggle would just brush past a dirty old boot sitting out in the middle of the field. But I wonder if we peeled it back a little bit – and this might be a bit of a stretch – but do you think the Portkey is at all reflective of the class status of Arthur and his family?

Laura: Ooh.

Micah: Dirty old boot, not a lot of money. I can’t see the Malfoys using a dirty old boot to make their way to the Quidditch World Cup.

Eric: They would transfigure it into a stiletto or a nicer shoe first, and then they would use it.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, they’re probably not traveling by Portkey, knowing them.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: True.

Andrew: Not to mention having to travel to the Portkey to begin with. That would be a hassle for a rich family.

Eric: That was the hard part. Yeah, getting up early, I think, also is an indication of their class, to your point, Micah. Even if there are other Portkeys that other families are taking, the 7:45 a.m. one is definitely for the poorer people.

Andrew: The Malfoys would be taking the private jet equivalent.

Eric: They would be taking their peacocks. Remember how Malfoy Manor has peacocks strutting?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Which, now we need AI art of Lucius and Draco and Narcissa flying on peacocks to the Quidditch World Cup. Please don’t disappoint me, Micah.

Laura: You know, Micah, now that you bring that up, it makes me think of the moment where they meet Amos and Cedric Diggory, and Amos just assumes that Harry and Hermione are also Arthur’s children. And we already know, we’ve heard several times throughout the series, that the Weasleys are just known for having a gaggle of children and people can’t really keep track of how many. So I think this speaks to your point, too, Micah, that somebody like Amos Diggory would look at Arthur and be like, “Oh, yes, there’s another couple of kids; must be his. That’s what they do.”

Eric: I also want to draw attention to the thing we’ve talked about before, about how rushed the author felt in writing this book. And so what if Amos’s line about “And these are all yours, too, I suspect, Arthur?” might be a reference to that Weasley cousin that was going to be introduced in this book and was cut. Maybe he’d be like, “No, these aren’t mine, but we have a cousin we’re meeting” originally, or something like that.

Laura: Interesting.

Andrew: That was a really funny line, too, the “No, just the redheads are mine.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I wonder if as a Weasley, you’re forbidden to change the color of your hair. Like if Bill, he has long hair, but if he had changed it from red, Molly would have flipped on him.

Andrew: And in a situation like the Quidditch World Cup where there’s tons of people, I bet Arthur and Molly really like that their kids have red hair because it’s easy to spot them. It’s like when you go to Disneyworld and you see a family wearing neon green T-shirts, all the same one, so they can easily be spotted. That’s what’s happening here maybe.

Eric: We went to Yellowstone and my mom wore bright pink. It was very easy to spot her. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I’m sure.

Micah: This is good for the next time we all go to Universal together.

Laura: Oh, that’s right. We have to pick a group color. Let’s think about it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Before we move off of Portkeys, one of the things I just wanted to call attention to is that this is clearly to set up the Portkey that we see used at the end of Goblet of Fire. And we all know that J.K. Rowling is very good at including things in a passing mention, and that’s pretty much what this is for this particular Portkey. And who knows? I don’t think it was ever in my mind as Harry was participating in the third task that the Triwizard cup was going to be a Portkey that took him to the Riddle graveyard, right? So it just goes to show you that we should always be paying attention to what’s on the page, much like the last chapter, that dinner conversation.

Eric: Right. Well, and in this chapter as well, the Summoning Charm is introduced. Harry ends up using that in the first task and it comes in clutch, and Molly Weasley is using it to get candies out of Fred and George’s pockets. So there’s just a ton of that, stuff that’s going to come later in this book, things being hidden or introduced or shown for the first time here, and we don’t really know what it’s going to amount to. I will say, though, Micah, to your point, the Portkeys work differently in the beginning of the book versus at the end of the book. Not only is the Triwizard cup one presumably not timed, right, Harry is not there at a specific minute. Barty Crouch, Jr. is not checking back and forth to see Harry’s progress and, as far as we know, setting the timer to go off in the next 60 seconds. And the element of it being a return cup as well; the fact that Harry is able to touch the cup with Cedric’s body and take it back is very much also not something that’s introduced here. So even though we’re only a book apart, within the same book, it’s actually pretty inconsistent. So as a full introduction to Portkeys and how they work and all that stuff for use later, I think it actually falls short a little bit because these things don’t add up.

Micah: It’s inconsistent.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And that can also be to the point that you were talking about earlier about the author feeling rushed in her writing for this book.

Laura: Right. Well, we also learn… because we hear that some people obviously would prefer to Apparate to the Quidditch World Cup. But we also learn that there are some trade-offs when it comes to Apparition. It can be dangerous, but you also have to have a license in order to Apparate. And we learn a couple of people that Arthur is aware of who actually got fined for Apparating without a license, and to literally add insult to injury, they splinched themselves, meaning that they did not Apparate successfully and they left part of themselves behind.

Andrew: Do you think they made the noise that Voldemort makes in Deathly Hallows – Part 2? [imitates Voldemort’s grunts of pain]

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Those are so fun to make, by the way. I had a ball doing that with you a few weeks ago, Laura.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: You’re really good at them.

Andrew: So anyone can Apparate, even if you don’t have a license. That’s what we’re gathering from here, right?

Laura: Right.

Eric: Well, I think it’s technically you can be capable of doing the magic, but…

Andrew: You really shouldn’t unless you have the license.

Eric: Yeah, as evidenced by the fact that these guys splinched themselves. If you aren’t going through the licensing process, then you’re not getting the most up-to-date helpful education on it, and so if you try and teach yourself how to, like, “I’m self taught,” and then you go and splinch yourself, it’s like, “Well, you should have just done the licensing course.”

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, it’s just like how somebody can know how to drive but not have a driver’s license.

Eric: It is exciting to see the wizarding world put a lot of systems in place – or just one system in place – for something that they’re doing that’s unsafe. [laughs] That’s new. That’s exciting. You have to license for Apparition. That’s cool.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: So we do have this connecting the threads moment here when Arthur is talking about these two gentlemen getting splinched, because we actually know that later on in Deathly Hallows, Ron goes on to get splinched when he, Harry, and Hermione are Disapparating to get to the Forest of Dean.

Eric: Again, it works a little differently. So Ron needs dittany so he doesn’t bleed to death. In this case, Arthur seems to be talking about the people being not at risk of bleeding to death necessarily. He says half of them was somewhere else, but it seems to be that maybe they’re magically protected, like if you just open a portal and half of you goes through, that the other half is… it seemed like they were still intact; they just weren’t physically in the same… I don’t know. It seems less grim when Arthur is talking about it here than what happened with Ron, which was very serious business.

Laura: Yeah, and it could be that he was trying to spare the kids the gruesome details. Also, I just always think about how nonchalant wizards are when they’re talking about pretty horrific stuff happening, like Dudley’s tongue swelling up inside of his mouth, for example. And Fred and George are just like, “Eh, he’ll be fine. It’s easy enough to fix.” And you hear Arthur talking about this, making light of the fact that these two people got splinched, and you’re like, “Oh, I see where the twins get it from, to be honest.” But there are a lot of people – we just talked about Portkeys – who take Portkeys because they either can’t or don’t want to Apparate because of the risks that come with it. But it made me wonder why, because presumably, Arthur can Apparate. We see him Apparate at other times, right? So why couldn’t he have just used side-along Apparition and made a few trips so that everybody could sleep in? These kids wake up before the sun’s even up and they start walking. [laughs]

Eric: It’s so unfair.

Laura: It’s awful.

Andrew: They’re kids, though, going to a very special event; they’ve got to earn it. I think it’s okay. That part doesn’t bother me. I do like your question, though: Why wouldn’t Arthur even consider side-along Apparition?

Eric: I think it wasn’t invented yet.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Because the other thing, and we’re going to talk about this in a minute, but the other thing that leads me to believe it wasn’t invented yet is the sheer inconsistency. If you read this chapter of the book and ask yourself “In what year of the wizarding world does a Hogwarts student learn to Apparate?” It’s wildly different, because Percy only just passed, but Percy is out of Hogwarts. He passed year seven, last year. Fred and George are going for their tests next year, but they’re in the fifth year this year. So why should it be next year that they wait for the…? Unless it’s like the year it turns thing. So I just think between all of the people we hear about learning about Apparating, it’s not their fifth year in which they’re doing it. And so the fact that we know that Harry has the instructor at the end of… isn’t it Book 5? Or is it Book 6?

Laura: I think it’s Book 6. And I think the twins are actually sixth years in this, not fifth years.

Eric: So they’re two years ahead of Harry.

Laura: Yeah, because they were third years when Harry started.

Eric: But so for Percy to have just passed two weeks ago, though, he has already graduated Hogwarts though, right?

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: So he learned after his seventh year.

Micah: Yeah, but it’s also…

Laura: Maybe he failed the first time he took it.

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: And what is Cedric? He is a seventh year now, correct?

Eric: Cedric is described as just turning 17 or being about 17, so we assume seventh year?

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Because it’s mentioned by Amos.

Laura: And we know you have to be of age.

Micah: Right. Amos mentions that he hasn’t passed his Apparition test yet either, so seventh year seems right.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: And so then Cedric would have passed it at the end of his previous year. So yeah, I just think that everything to do with Apparition is still very new at the time this was written. It’s fun to actually pick out these little elements and be like, “Oh, that actually doesn’t line up with what happens to Harry later.”

Andrew: Anyone who had turned 17 by the day of the exam could take the exam, and if they pass, they received a license.

Laura: Yeah, so that’s why Hermione gets her license before… well, I don’t even know if we ever… we don’t see Harry and Ron get theirs.

Andrew: They don’t. Only Hermione. Look, man, it’s all about the journey. It’s not about the destination, it’s the journey.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Arthur wanted to give them a memorable experience, a nice hike to the boot. [laughs] So they’d never forget the way they entered the Quidditch World Cup. Honestly, though, it’s a good educational experience.

Micah: Also very reminiscent… I’m sure we’ve all been in the situation where maybe we’re taking a big trip, and we had to get up super early.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And it could even be… Thanksgiving is coming up. It could even be, “Oh, we’ve got to get up, we’ve got to get in the car and drive for hours to get to whomever’s house that we’re going to celebrate at…”

Andrew: Right.

Micah: It’s kind of like that.

Andrew: Amos got up really early. 2 a.m., he said, I believe, right?

Laura: Yeah, that’s right. And they walked too; that’s the crazy thing to me.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Cedric and his dad walked since two in the morning, and we know that it is at least late enough that Harry is starting to see a faint tinge of green light on the horizon where the sun is rising, so Cedric and Amos walked for like, five hours to get here.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: They’re real outdoorsy types. They’re hard workers.

Andrew: Apparently.

Laura: True.

Micah: Right, and this is a once every four year event, presumably, but their country is hosting it, so it’s exciting. They don’t have a team that’s really in it that they’re cheering for, but there’s an excitement about it.

Laura: Agreed. Well, we were just talking about people failing their Apparition tests, people not having their license as soon as we might expect, based on their age, or based on their year at Hogwarts, but it seems like failing your Apparition test the first time might be fairly common. We learn that Charlie failed his test the first time. We know that Ron is going to fail his in a couple books’ time. Of course, we just chatted about Percy, but we get this great description of him Apparating from his bedroom downstairs every single morning just because he can.

Andrew: Obnoxious.

Laura: Okay, so here’s the thing; I’m actually going to defend it. And y’all know that I’m not really a big Percy fan. But this to me feels like classic teenage behavior; it reminds me of getting your driver’s license, and how you would make excuses or even just go out to do the smallest thing just so that you can get behind the wheel of the car and drive just because you could.

Eric: 100%. 100%.

Andrew: But what he’s doing is going downstairs in the same house.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: If we follow your line of thinking here, it’s like if I just got my driver’s license and I pulled my car out of the garage just to drive to the house next door ten feet away. That’s what’s happening with Percy. So I still think it’s obnoxious.

Eric: Oh, no. The carbon footprint alone is devastating.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But I think this is their closest equivalent to the experience of being newly licensed to drive a car.

Eric: And excited about it. Yeah, your independence, your freedom.

Andrew: It’s too small of a distance, in my opinion.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: If he was going to a neighbor’s or something, or maybe down the street, okay, but… mm-mm.

Micah: I’ll defend Percy slightly as well…

Andrew: Augh!

Micah: … because I do recall the twins do much of the same in the next book.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: And there’s not as much… I mean, I think it annoys Molly, from what I remember, but it’s not cast in necessarily the same light as Percy doing it. So it just goes to show you that there is favoritism shown towards the twins versus being shown to Percy, and in this case, they’re doing the exact same thing.

Eric: I will also add, based on last week, I talked about Percy’s home life being a complete mess that he resides at the Ministry because he’s escaping home. He’s probably Apparating downstairs to grab his toast for breakfast from his bedroom, and then Apparating back up to his bedroom. Because if he doesn’t, if he tries to take the stairs – you all know what I’m saying, I see it in all of your faces – his siblings are going to trip him, or taunt him, or prevent him, or block his path, or there’s going to be another toffee in the way, or something. Everyone’s turned the crosshairs onto Percy, and so maybe he’s just trying to leave as little of a footprint as possible.

Laura: Yeah, or just trying to avoid people in general, right? We can tell that he’s not really his family’s number one fan at this phase in the series. [laughs]

Micah: True. Though, as much as I defended him, I will say I’m sure there’s a part of him that thoroughly enjoys being able to do this in front of Fred and George.

Laura: Oh yeah, for sure. 100%. Well, Andrew, you had a transportation question.

Andrew: Which would we prefer if we had to pick one? Portkey or Apparition?

Micah: Who’d you rather? Portkey or Apparition?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, I think…

Micah: Going back to last week.

Andrew: I like the Portkey from the idea of like, it’s kind of exciting to center your transportation plans around a particular object in time, I think. Actually, I was joking about “the journey” earlier, but I think that is part of the experience, especially when it comes to the Quidditch World Cup. Apparition, there’s some risk to it, whether or not you have your license. I’d rather take the safer route, I think, so long as I don’t have to get up at 2 a.m. to get to my Portkey, five hours away.

Eric: Yeah, Apparition seems to have way too many random variables that could go wrong, so I’m not choosing that anytime soon.

Andrew: So that’s two for the Portkey.

Laura: I’m going to say Apparition, personally. I get motion sickness, and the way the Portkey is described sounds awful to me. So I would just practice and make sure I’m really, really good…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … before I try to Apparate any kind of significant distance. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I’m wondering if this is a Ravenclaw trait on some level, because I feel like ultimately, I’d go with Apparition as well. I just think it’s something, to your point, Laura, you’d have to make sure that you practice enough that you’re doing it safely. Though, that said, we see Newt and Jacob use a Portkey in Fantastic Beasts, and they’re obviously fully grown. And certainly Newt could take Jacob through side-along Apparition. We see him… actually, don’t they do that? Or does he go with Dumbledore? I forget.

Eric: Well, they have to cross the English Channel. And that’s the other aspect of this, because even if you’re an accomplished wizard, the distance makes it worse. It’s harder to do. That’s why Newt takes a ferry liner to get to New York at the beginning of the first movie; he can’t… your risk goes up exponentially based on distance.

Laura: Yeah, that’s why Leta is on the Titanic in the second movie.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, speaking of steamliners, we know that some wizards just take loads of Muggle transport. The Ministry somehow has to stagger this and put a cap on how many are doing it so they don’t draw too much attention to themselves. But I have to say, it’s hard for me to imagine this being completely discreet. Think of all the times we’ve seen wizards trying to dress like Muggles, and utterly failing. I’m also thinking of how rowdy sports fans get when there are large sporting events like this going on. No hate towards them; they’re just really, really excited.

Micah: And drunk.

Laura: You can tell when there’s a train full of people coming or going to a game, so I just wonder how much of a mess the Ministry gets to clean up after an event like this. And we know they’re obviously going to have a really big mess to clean up after this one, but in general, I just wonder how much damage control they have to do after a large event.

Eric: Yeah, for sure. I think, too, the event may be over, but their job is just beginning for sanitation crew, cleanup crew, all that kind of a thing. Although, it is funny to actually… I know we led with sort of this “Statute of Secrecy must be preserved,” but I wonder these days, in 2023, how much with conventions being a thing, that we’re all familiar with cosplay… I basically learn about half the conventions that are in Chicago because I see people dressed up wildly on public transit. So I wonder if it’s as severe now in these days and culture, whether the Cup is in a major metropolitan area and people would be like, “Oh, there’s clearly something weird going on,” and they mind their own…

Andrew: “Comic Con London is happening.”

Eric: Yeah, yeah. And then even going back in time, probably to early 2000s when this was written, just wild stuff, again, happens in the middle of nowhere, so maybe a Muggle that lives in the middle of woods on their private property with their 50 acres, they see something weird happening, but that’s just Wednesday afternoon for them. So maybe it isn’t as dire as we think.

Andrew: I really like this point, actually, about conventions. I was going to say, maybe the Ministry gives their constituents very clear guidelines about what to and what not to wear, crystal clear, so there’s no doubt, because yeah, Laura, I don’t trust wizards making up their own mind in terms of what it’s like to dress like a Muggle. But now I’m being swayed by Eric because I do think, to his point, you start seeing people dressed differently than you, you’re like, “Oh, there must be a convention nearby.”

Micah: But yeah, I mean, I would say this is par for the course in New York City. You’d see somebody and you won’t even think twice; they could easily be a witch or a wizard [laughs] and you wouldn’t even bat an eyelash because of all the crazy things that we see here. But when you were talking earlier, Laura, though, about the whole Muggle dress code, even Arthur, who works in the field of Muggles, still doesn’t seem to be able to dress himself to be able to pass as your average person. It drew up the moment that’s in the Order of the Phoenix movie with Mark Williams where he’s doing the moonwalk through the turnstile for the underground because he’s not really sure how it works.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I think you’d probably get a lot of that going on.

Eric: For sure.

Laura: Yeah. I feel like Arthur knows just enough about Muggles to be dangerous.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: For somebody who has the job he has, he is shockingly out of touch with how Muggles work. [laughs]

Eric: Listen, he’s got the… I don’t know how you… where’s this unfounded accusation coming from? He has a shirt, pants, and a belt. He is succeeding, as far as I’m concerned. He’s the only wizard we ever see who’s an adult that actually succeeds in dressing like a Muggle convincingly.

Laura: Yeah, so he has this one down, I think, for this particular event…

Eric: I’m so proud of him.

Laura: But we see all… yeah, I guess I am proud of him. But I mean, we think about Ron not knowing how to use the telephone, for example.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: That’s true.

Micah: And I want to know why Arthur doesn’t have more pull, working for the Ministry. Why can’t he get there later?

Eric: Because everybody works for the Ministry.

Micah: Everybody, though?

Eric: Yeah. I mean, basically, his department is… yeah.

Micah: So this is like the holiday party. Is that what you’re saying? [laughs]

Eric: This is basically your yearly… yes, I think. Because…

Andrew: Haven’t we also touched on how his job is probably not respected within the Ministry? Haven’t we? So that’s probably another reason why he doesn’t have much pull.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: For sure. Well, keeping it moving, we’re going to move on to the next part of this discussion, which I’ve titled “Sorry, parents, you’re completely cringe to your teenage children.” And we already touched on a couple of these points about why are you forcing these kids on this march to the Portkey? Why couldn’t anybody have used side-along Apparition to make this just an easier experience all around? But I want to focus on Fred and George for a moment, because before everyone leaves the Burrow to go to the boot, Fred and George are caught trying to sneak more of their deadly toffees to the World Cup. But their attempt is ultimately squashed by Mrs. Weasley, and she Accios every last toffee away from them. And I’m wondering, who were the twins planning on passing these out to?

Eric: Can you imagine how disruptive this would have been?

Andrew: Yeah, I also just love that Molly was going “Accio, Accio, Accio!” like she had to do each one individually. It’s too bad there’s not a wider Accio. I guess if they were all in a bag, that would have helped. But to answer your question, maybe they were going to take a strategy similar to what they did with Dudley; just toss them on the ground and see who picks one up and tries to put it in their mouth.

Eric: The only benefit with them trying this again is that people who are suffering from this horrible affliction would be surrounded by wizards. There might actually be an abundance of people trying to help that all have different ideas for how to do it, and that would be potentially awful. But yeah, a crowded space, a public space. The only thing that excuses this, for my mind, is that I think Fred and George really just needed to get them out of the house, because they were afraid that exactly what happened was going to happen, that Molly was going to confiscate them. Maybe they really weren’t planning on actually having people use them. But maybe Lee Jordan or somebody could be able to hold onto them safely until they get to Hogwarts.

Laura: Maybe. I feel like this reminds me of the concept of teenagers, or young people in general, smuggling certain substances, certain contraband that they’re not supposed to have, to an event like a concert or a conference or a dance or something.

Andrew: Yeah. I guess we don’t really know the guidelines here. But presumably, there is a long list of things that are banned from the Quidditch World Cup. Or maybe not, because as I’ve brought up before, anything goes all over the wizarding world. Nothing matters.

Laura: Right, if you think Hogwarts is a security nightmare, then… [laughs]

Andrew: Step outside of Dumbledore and you’ll see just how much crazier it can get. [imitates Dumbledore] “You think I’m bad? Just go to the Cup.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: He was probably wearing a Death Eater mask.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, speaking of cringy parents, let’s talk about Amos Diggory. I had forgotten how insufferable this man is. And I will say, it hurts to read it because you can tell this man is living vicariously through his son who in nine months’ time he’s going to lose. And that really does hurt. But you think about some of the things that Amos says to Harry, where he’s like, “You’re Harry Potter? Oh man, Cedric is going to be able to tell his grandchildren that he beat you at Quidditch.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: “He’s the better flyer because he didn’t fall off his broom.” I felt so much secondhand embarrassment for Cedric reading this.

Eric: That’s the greatest thing about this, though, is that Cedric is actually embarrassed. Fred and George are fuming; they hate being reminded of Hufflepuff’s victory in that one game. But it’s clear that Amos just doesn’t know the full story. Or if he does know it, because I think Cedric might have corrected him at one point, he doesn’t care.

Andrew: He tries to tell him, yeah.

Laura: He did.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I take your point, but Amos is a proud father. He beat the chosen one. There’s nothing better than that; that is something to brag about. Is it right to brag in front of Harry? No, I guess that’s cringe. But Amos is probably, is obviously starstruck, so he’s not thinking clearly right now, so I’ll stick up for my boy.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “My boy!”

Micah: Nice play on words there, Andrew.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I’m with you, though, Laura. And it’s just, I think, a product of watching the movies too much. And Jeff Rawle, who played Amos Diggory, he’s very much a friendly character to Harry. He’s never this version of Amos towards Harry. And so to see him behave this way, I completely forgot that this was the type of person that he is.

Eric: It’s so reminiscent of actual parents, though, that are very cringe, to your point, Laura. Just the idea of like, they go into it, then he goes into, “Oh, well, I’m sure even Harry would admit if one man falls off his broom and the other one doesn’t, then the other one is the better athlete!” and it’s like, “Oh my God, stop.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: We all know somebody like that, though.

Laura: Yeah, we do. And I just want to point out here, we can’t forget that during that Quidditch match in Prisoner of Azkaban, Cedric actually wanted to replay the match. He wanted a rematch because he didn’t think that it was fair, because Harry had fallen off his broom and it wasn’t Harry’s fault. So Cedric is actually, at least in this regard when it comes to his humility and his self-awareness, he is the polar opposite of his father. Amos is giving, like, stage mother in this.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yes, very good.

Eric: Or what is it with Toddlers and Tiaras where they’re…?

Laura: Yeah, beauty pageant mom. [laughs]

Eric: Beauty, yeah, pageant moms. He is. I will say that unique to Cedric, too, unlike Viktor Krum and Fleur Delacour, we actually, I think, see enough evidence in previous books in the whole series to understand why the Triwizard cup picks Cedric as the champion for Hogwarts. I think that we… or at least we see his Hufflepuff side, his unwillingness to accept the glory for himself. And he’s not the one gloating. Imagine what a different character he would be if he came up to Harry and said, “Hey, Harry, remember when I beat you at Quidditch?” That would be a way different character, but he would never.

Laura: And I had this note here – we’re getting really dark on this episode between the beginning and the end of the chapter here – but reflecting on Amos telling Cedric, “This will be something you tell your grandchildren,” and I was just thinking, as I planned this episode, the narrator coming on and being like, “Cedric would have no grandchildren.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Poor Cedric.

Andrew: Maybe they can do that in the TV show. Cut to a narrator and it can be you, Laura.

Laura: Oh, maybe they can get Helen Mirren to be the narrator of the Harry Potter TV show.

Andrew: Ooh, that’d be fun. Max that!

Laura: That would be so good. That connection is there. [laughs]

[“Max That” sound effect plays]


Odds & Ends


Laura: All right, we’re going to get into a couple of odds and ends here. The Lovegoods are named dropped at the beginning-ish of this chapter, as having already arrived at the World Cup a couple of weeks ago. Arthur mentions this. And this is where we get the first connection to Luna living so close to the Weasleys, even though we don’t know her character yet. But it makes me wonder, did Luna and Xenophilius end up having to get the cheap tickets Arthur was talking about?

Andrew: Yes, the newspaper world is a tough business. There’s no money in it.

Eric: Print does not sell.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: They’re dancing around the forest, so they’re fine.

Andrew: [laughs] They’re holding their own Woodstock.

Eric: I was going to say, to them, I bet they would have chosen to come early for all the people watching and that kind of thing. I just imagine Luna’s summers being filled with nonstop enjoyment, no matter what form that takes.

Laura: Agreed. I also just wanted to mention that Mrs. Weasley calls the twins out for not getting more OWLs again. She just did this around their first incident with the cursed toffees, and here she says it to them again, because they mention “Hey, it took us six months to make those, and you just trashed them.” And she said, “Well, it’s no wonder you didn’t do better on your exams,” when the reality is, in a lot of ways, you could say they demonstrated a much higher level of intellect by being able to develop these than is necessarily reflected by doing well on an exam.

Eric: I think the interesting thing about this for me is that Molly brings it up almost to defend Charlie, because I think it’s the twins that are like, “Charlie failed his Apparition test twice.” She’s defending who could be her favorite child.


MVP of the Week


Laura: All right, and we will go ahead then and get into MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And I’m going to give it to the boot Portkey, and listen, boot: You are boot-iful, and worthy of being touched by a Muggle. You are more than untouchable trash to a Muggle like me.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: I would pick you up and put you where you belong. You are my MVB of the week.

Eric: Oh, MVB. I’m going to give mine to Amos for reasons we’ve already said. He gets to gloat about his boy, and it won’t last long, but good for him.

Laura: Well, I’m going to give it to his boy.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m going to give it to Cedric for his self-awareness and his humility in the face of his father kind of bullying a 14-year-old boy low-key. [laughs]

Micah: I’m going to give it to Eric, or [laughs] I’m going to agree with Eric and give it to Amos, because in the spirit of Thanksgiving, he served up some humble pie to Harry.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our old school phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for some of our Harry Potter trivia game, Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: According to Amos Diggory, what family couldn’t get tickets to the Quidditch World Cup? And the correct answer was the Fawcetts. Whoever they are, I feel bad for them.

[Quizzitch music ends]

Eric: Micah, please do us the honor of reading last week’s winners who got the correct answer.

Micah: Thanks, Eric. So correct answers were submitted by All hail Andrew, the King of Panera Bread…

Andrew: Interesting. I do love Panera. I don’t know who knows that about me, but thank you.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … Amos, more like LAMEos; Cedric and his idiot father for jeering at Harry the Almighty; Crystal blue; Daniel Radcliffe’s Abandoned Green Contact Lenses; DavidHeymanYouSexyFantasticBeast…

Laura: True.

Micah: … DF versus Omega Mart read triple trio part 27… [coughs] Sorry, I’m losing my voice now. Elizabeth K.; Famous Amos, Don’t Eat His Cookies; German trains make me dream of Hogwarts Express; Hagrid’s soggy pillow; HallowWolf; I Answered a Harry Potter Trivia Question Correctly and then Proceeded to Get a Lot of Other Trivia Questions Wrong; Justice for Winky; Keep your Galleons in the bag, men; LC; Luna’s Quidditch Week-long Pregame Show featuring her Nargles…

Eric: Yes!

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … Mollywobbles; Muggle, Muggle, toil and trouble, toffees go and cautions don’t bubble; My favorite beast is a shiny shiny Niffler; Ron’s emotional range; and The reason Crookshanks has a squashed face is because… [laughs]

Eric: There’s so much animal cruelty in this episode.

Laura: [laughs] I know.

Micah: The reason Crookshanks has a squashed face is because Ron hit it with a frying pan.

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: Cannot confirm.

Micah: Now, here’s the question, Eric.

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: Which one is my submission?

Eric: Were you Keep your Galleons in the bag, men?

[Micah makes a buzzing sound]

Laura: I’m going to give it to DavidHeymanYouSexyFantasticBeast.

Andrew: I would vote that one too.

[Micah makes a buzzing sound]

Andrew: What was it, Micah? What was it?

Micah: Well, no, I don’t have to give it away if it’s not properly…

Andrew: All right, he sneaks by again.

Eric: [laughs] He sneaks by again. That reminds me of that old…

Micah: Famous Amos, Don’t Eat His Cookies.

Eric: Oh, okay, okay. That old Onion headline, which is “Ninja parade goes through town unnoticed again.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Here is the next Quizzitch question: According to Percy, about how many languages does Mr. Crouch speak? Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast.com website. Go to MuggleCast.com, click on “Quizzitch,” or go to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch in your search bar.

Andrew: Also on that site, you’ll find our transcripts, our social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and our contact form. Don’t forget, too, that the MuggleCast and Millennial overstock store is now open, so visit MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com to get one-of-a-kind MuggleCast gifts while supplies last. These are great for the holidays, so if you need something for your wishlist or you need something for the MuggleCast fan in your life, check it out. If you enjoy the show and think other Muggles would too, tell that Muggle about the show. We would also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. And last but definitely not least, visit Patreon.com if you want to support the show and receive early access to the show, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, yearly physical gifts, and much more. If you’re an Apple Podcasts subscriber, you can tap into the show and receive early and ad-free access to each episode for $2.99 a month. We’re going to have some updates there in the New Year, by the way, concerning the Apple Podcasts subscription. More to come. Whether pledging through Patreon or Apple Podcasts, free trials and annual subscriptions are available. So that does it for this week’s Thanksgiving-themed episode, I guess, of MuggleCast. Good luck roasting your baby hippogriff, and hope it goes well. And I apologize.

Micah: Stuffing your owls.

Andrew: Forever sorry, I’m Andrew.

Eric: Eternally also sorry, I’m Eric.

Micah: Forever thankful, I’m Micah.

Andrew: Aww, that’s cute.

Laura: Sorry not sorry, I’m Laura.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #635

 

MuggleCast 635 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #635, Percy The Parrot (GOF Chapter 5, Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Eric Scull: Hello, and welcome to MuggleCast, Episode 635. A very special episode, a [emphasizes] “some girls” episode of MuggleCast.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: This is your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Eric: Stay out of Molly’s kitchen because the sauce ain’t the only thing boiling over tonight.

Laura: Ooh.

Eric: I love whoever wrote that. Probably Micah, right?

Micah: It was me.

Eric: We’re getting back, after a few weeks off, into Goblet of Fire Chapter by Chapter. Very excited to be doing that. But first, Andrew could not make it, and we’re powering forward in his stead. But we do have with us a wonderful Slug Club guest. Hello, Katie.

Katie: Hi.

Eric: Welcome to the show.

Katie: Thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

Eric: Please, can we get your fandom ID?

Katie: Sure. So my favorite book is Order of the Phoenix. My favorite movie is I think Prisoner of Azkaban. I don’t know why.

Laura: Hell yeah. Hell yeah!

Eric: You don’t? You think so but you don’t know why.

Katie: I don’t know why. It’s not that good, but it’s good. My House is Gryffindor. My Patronus is a marsh harrier, I think; some kind of bird.

Laura: Oh!

Katie: My Ilvermorny House is Wampus, which I had to look up before this. And then my favorite Weasley is George.

Eric: Okay! I’m sure you’ll be singing all of George’s praises.

Katie: Of course.

Eric: Well, we have a few announcements before we get into our Chapter by Chapter this week. Micah, why don’t you tell us what’s coming up in bonus?

Micah: Yeah, so we have a really exciting bonus MuggleCast plan, the first for November. Thank you to Andrew, actually, for planning it.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: So he did the work, but we get to have the discussion. And we’re going to be discussing the question, “What did a good character do in the Harry Potter series that really just rubbed us the wrong way?”

Eric: Ooh.

Micah: And this was pulled, I believe, from a Reddit thread. Subreddit. I’m not familiar with Reddit, not a big Reddit user. I want to try and get the terminology right.

Laura: Micah.

Micah: I know Laura is going to kick me off the show, but…

Laura: No, I’m not going to kick you off the show. I just feel bad for you. You’re depriving yourself of so much information. You should see… honestly, Micah, I’m surprised you’re not a Redditor. It feels very up your alley.

Micah: Okay.

Eric: Ooh.

Micah: Well, maybe this bonus MuggleCast will get me going on the Reddit train.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: But yeah, there are a lot of things that “good” characters did in the Harry Potter series that really irked people, and we’re going to discuss them coming up in bonus MuggleCast.

Eric: Well, yeah, I love the topic. I’m very excited to be getting to that, especially because something that was touched on on last week’s MuggleCast, the all girls episode, no character is black or white, and there’s things to love about our favorite characters and things to hate. So by the way, I want to shout out: Laura, great job last week and on that episode, and Chloé and Pam and Meg. Everyone did a really great job.

Laura: I loved doing the episode, and I loved listening back to it after it came out. It came out so well, and I was really happy to hear that the final product felt very much the way I felt when we were recording it. So really hoping that everyone enjoyed, and please, we want to hear your feedback. We want to hear what y’all’s thoughts are because we are always looking for feedback on what things we can do with the show as we move forward, as anyone who took our survey knows. So yeah, really appreciate it.

Micah: It was a really great episode. I listened to it on my commute this week. And I will say, I think there was a bit of inspiration for at least part of this discussion that’s coming up a little bit later on in this episode.

Laura: I know; I loved that. I’m so excited for us to get there.

Eric: Well, cool. Right before we dive in, there’s one more announcement, and this one is really exciting, actually. I’m very stoked about it. It feels like Christmas has come early, or I hope that it will feel that way to listeners of the show. Have you ever wanted one of our cool physical gifts that we send usually to patrons, but you couldn’t or came too late to subscribe to our Patreon? Well, if this is you, you’re in luck. For the first time ever, we are selling the additional copies, the physical gifts, the leftover gifts from years past, on – da-da-da-da – the MuggleCast and Millennial Overstock Store. It’s over on Etsy. The URL for this is MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com, because we combined the two shows’ overstocked gifts, and the MuggleCast beanie is on here. You guys, honestly, by the time that this episode comes out, I’m not even sure we’re still going to have them, but Pickle Pack T-shirts are available, the original Pickle Pack shirts, the progenitor to MuggleCast on Patreon by like, nine years, the ancestor of MuggleCast Patreon. Those shirts are available all on the MuggleCast store. Laura, tell us more.

Laura: And just for anyone who may be listening and going, “Okay, what the heck is Millennial?” we have plugged it before. For anyone at home, Millennial is another podcast that I host with Andrew and with Pam, who was on the all girls episode last week. But since all of these are extra inventory that we’ve collected over the years, everything is only going to be available while supplies last, y’all. These are not going to be printed or sold again. We have several unique anniversary-oriented products, like our 15th anniversary T-shirts and our 16th anniversary wooden cars, so don’t miss out. Your purchase does go to supporting the show, so thank you so much in advance.

Eric: And congrats to our recent Quizzitch Live winners, who won their first pick at some of these presents from the overstock store as well, and they chose the Pickle Pack shirts. So again, I think those are going to go like hotcakes. But I think that may be it for the announcements, and it’s ready to dive in.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Eric: This week we’re discussing Chapter 5 of Goblet of Fire, titled “Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes.” I always forget that the name for their eventual joke shop comes quite early in the series.

Laura: I will say, I forgot about that too.

Katie: Me too.

Eric: And I don’t know if it’s an offhand joke or not, but we’ll talk about that in a moment. For seven-word summary, Katie, I hope you don’t mind; we have you in here twice and you’re leading us off.

Katie: Sure, why not? [laughs]

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Katie: Harry…

Micah: … visits…

Eric: … the…

Laura: … Burrow…

Katie: … and…

Laura: There’s so many different directions we could take this.

Eric: I know; what’s it going to be?

Laura: I know. Ah, ah! … and eats…

Micah: … satisfactorily.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Laura: There we go.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: For the… you know what? Honestly, y’all, I love this one because it is Harry’s first satisfactory meal all summer.

Eric: Oh my God, it is. That’s right. I really feel like you pulled it all together there in the end, Micah, with that last word there.

Laura: You really did.

Katie: It’s great.

Micah: Yeah, I thought about “food,” [laughs] and I just said, “That’s not sufficient for this seven-word summary.”

[Katie laughs]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: But I do feel like that is a pretty good summary of this chapter because it’s one of those chapters where not a lot happens, but a lot happens at the same time. You’ve got to read between the lines a little bit. And it is great to be back doing Chapter by Chapter; it’s been a couple weeks. And I think it’s actually been three weeks since we’ve been with Harry. He ended up arriving at the Burrow, and really just broke this discussion into two different segments. I want to talk first about family dynamics and life after Hogwarts, because in this chapter, the wizarding world continues to expand, right? That’s one of the things that we talked a lot about with the fourth book in particular is that the world is really starting to open up for Harry; we’re given a look at what life is like for a wizarding family. Yes, we’ve been to the Burrow before, but we get a little bit more in-depth in this chapter. And we also learn a little bit more about what opportunities are available career-wise for witches and wizards, and it’s not all about the Ministry, which I think is important because it’s not just about governmental jobs. The other thing I wanted to raise, and I’m interested to get all of your thoughts, is this chapter really does a terrific job setting up what we can expect from the members of the Weasley family moving forward in the series. It’s kind of a snapshot of the expectation for how the Weasleys are going to behave in these next couple of books.

Eric: Great point.

Laura: Yeah, it also just reminds me of what it felt like to meet members of close friends’ family, who I’d only heard stories about, and then meeting them in person for the first time and either being surprised at the person I was meeting, or not surprised at all at the person I was meeting. It also tells you so much about that friend, right? When you meet your friend’s parents, I feel like oftentimes, you’re like, “Oh, I get it now.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: But then I think you can say the same thing when you meet siblings that are maybe older and haven’t been around that much.

Eric: Yeah, it’s definitely like seeing another side of the person that you do know, is seeing who else their family members are. Katie, has this happened to you?

Katie: All the time. And actually, I just asked my students, “What would happen when expectations don’t meet your reality?”

Eric: Oh my God.

Katie: Yeah, I just asked that last week, and it was all “They’re going to be disappointed,” but I think in some cases, you’re pleasantly surprised. And I liked when Harry met all of the Weasleys.

Eric: It’s funny because going in, if you remove Bill and Charlie from the picture, Harry does have almost a 50/50 view of the Weasleys, where yeah, Ron is obviously his best friend. Ginny, Harry really does not know enough to form an opinion on; I think that’s clear. She still blushes when he says hello to her. There’s no relationship there. Then he knows Percy is even now a bit pretentious, a bit Ministry, and just doesn’t know what to make of him. So Bill or Charlie could have turned out either way, statistically. It’s like, maybe they aren’t the cool, say… turns out they’re awesome and Harry likes them both.

Katie: Yeah, I like how he’s like, “Oh, I thought Bill was going to be like Percy because he works for Gringotts, and that’s a high-ranking bank job.” And he’s like, no, complete opposite. The dragonhide boots and everything.

Eric: I will say, too, going back to the Burrow is always a magical experience, and I’m thrilled because I don’t believe we did this in the previous book very much.

Laura: No.

Eric: And so getting to… that’s actually this week’s Quizzitch question I’m failing to reference. But yeah, so having the experience of once again being in the kitchen where the dishes do themselves and magic is used for everything, and magic is holding this house up, and you go out to the garden for a nice outdoor meal and all of a sudden, the cat is chasing these gnomes. It just reminds us, I think, what we love about these books is that glimpse into casual wizard life, the life we all want for ourselves secretly when we’re reading these books.

Laura: For sure.

Katie: I was reading it and I was thinking, “This is so charming. I like this.”

Laura: I think that’s a perfect descriptor for this chapter. Even though there is so much going on, and even though you don’t know it as an initial reader, there are a lot of breadcrumbs being dropped in this chapter, right? On its face, it really just feels like a very charming chapter, which lends itself to what Micah was saying about feeling like not that much happens in this chapter. But a little more than we suspect, at least at the beginning, is.

Micah: Yeah, one thing I did want to bring up before we get to actually meeting the Weasleys, the connecting the threads piece of it, where very similar to Chamber of Secrets, the Weasleys arrive home from Privet Drive after having rescued Harry from the Dursleys. And once again, his children have put Arthur in a very precarious situation, and Molly is not very happy. So this is very reminiscent of how Book 2 started off.

Eric: Yeah, with Molly going at some of the children for their actions. It is Fred and George again, actually, that get yelled at, so it’s a heck of a connecting the threads to that moment two books ago. That’s very astute.

Laura: Yeah. On that point about Molly, she says, in retrospect, some hurtful things about her sons. She’s like, “I don’t know where we went wrong with them.” She’s basically being like, “Why can’t they just be normal?”

Eric: [laughs] Well, they just attacked a Muggle…

Laura: Fair.

Eric: … but really almost insidiously too. It’s not just…

Laura: Well, that was Fred. It was Fred. [laughs]

Eric: It was Fred, yeah. It wasn’t Katie’s favorite, George. I think George was largely spared this one. But the twins get in trouble together. I think what it is… honestly, Molly perfectly lays this out with their father’s job at the Ministry, which you know they don’t ever think about at all. Ron didn’t think about it when he took the flying car either. They can’t be doing this to Muggles. [laughs] It’s extra bad. It’s bad to begin with for wizard/Muggle relations, and then it’s extra bad for what it’s going to show up as to their dad.

Laura: 100%. I think Fred and George, I feel like with Molly sometimes, are already at a bit of a disadvantage, because there are so many other things that they do that aren’t necessarily wrong that ruffle her feathers. Let’s think about the fact that it’s mentioned that they didn’t get as many OWLs as she would have expected, so she was already mad at them. It’s clear to me that Fred and George don’t really fit the mold of what Molly wants her children to be. She doesn’t love them any less for it, but that has an impact. And if Fred and George are so hellbent on troublemaking and being the practical jokers and the class clowns, you have to wonder where that comes from, right? That kind of thing doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

Eric: Are you suggesting it’s Molly’s fault that the twins are the way they are?

Laura: No, I mean, I don’t think it’s as simple as saying it’s entirely nature or entirely nurture. I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. But Molly has a part in it; I mean, parents shape their children, for better or worse.

Eric: Oh, sure. Sure they do.

Katie: I’m wondering if she had these high expectations because of how Bill, Charlie, and Percy turned out.

Laura: Right.

Katie: And then she gets Fred and George, who don’t meet those expectations.

Eric: That makes me ask, too, what are her expectations with Fred and George? Because I feel like you’ve won a lot with your first three kids, right? Like Bill, Harry takes one look at him, he’s like, “Oh, he’s cool,” and obviously being Head Boy and everything that Charlie and Bill have got going for them. They both have jobs that are fulfilling to them; they both carved their own path. And Percy is on track to be the next Minister for Magic; I mean, not yet, but 15 years from now you could really see that kid turning out great. So the idea that Fred and George aren’t what Molly is expecting, I think it’s the next natural progression to your point, Laura, like a response to almost the other brothers. But I think by the fourth or fifth kid, which is where Fred and George are, as a parent, you relax and you go, “You know what? I’m clearly okay enough at this parenting thing, however they’re turning out. Yeah, it’s different, I’m a little unused to it,” but to be able to relax a little bit more.

Laura: Yeah, you would think so. But maybe Molly is a character that we can chat about in bonus MuggleCast this week, because she is a good character and a character that I am extremely fond of, and a good mother, I would say, who does some things, particularly in Goblet of Fire, that feel incredibly immature for a mother, for someone her age, and for a role model and a mentor. So we’ll share some of those thoughts in bonus.

Micah: So one of the really cool things with this chapter is we’re obviously introduced to two new Weasleys in Bill and Charlie. We’ve talked a little bit about that already, but I wanted to go through the descriptions a little bit because this goes to the point of earlier when we were talking about meeting somebody for the first time and them defying expectations, right? I think both of these – even though it’s really called out more with Bill – both of these characters really just hit Harry in a totally different way than what he was expecting, right? We have Charlie; he’s built like the twins, but shorter and stockier than Percy and Ron. He’s got a broad, good-natured face, which is weatherbeaten and so freckly that he looked tan. He’s got calluses and blisters on his hands from his work with dragons. He’s got these nice biceps, these muscular arms, one with a very clear burn on it, right? So we’ve got Charlie.

Eric: It’s funny because Bill is the one that Harry is like, “This guy is cool,” but Charlie is cool! The burn on his arm is very cool. It’s very, very fetching.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned Bill, and Harry had imagined him, actually, as an older version of Percy. And it just goes to show you don’t judge a book by its cover, from the standpoint of all Harry knows about Bill is what he knows about Bill. He hasn’t actually seen him. When he sees him, he’s like, “Wait, this guy was Head Boy? He works at Gringotts? Wait, hold on a second. This guy is cool.”

Eric: [laughs] It turns out people people who work at banks are cool, apparently. I’m sure that that’s true in real life.

Laura: You can be an academic overachiever and still be cool.

Micah: Totally.

Eric: I think being an academic overachiever is what makes you cool, actually.

Laura: Oh, I agree with that. But this is the ’90s. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Micah: So for Bill, though, he’s got long hair tied back in a ponytail. He’s got a fang earring, clothes that look like he belonged at a rock concert, and a pair of dragonhide boots. Don’t tell Charlie; he might be a little offended by that.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: That’s right, he’s wearing these boots right… maybe Charlie gifted him them for Christmas.

Micah: Perhaps. That’s kind of cool. But you also brought up, Eric, that he’s got a little bit of a potty mouth too.

Eric: The coolest thing about Bill, yes, it’s true – and I was first reading this book when I was 12 – was that Bill swears in front of his mom. This was clearly a huge influence on my preteen self. [laughs] But he just says… I think at one point Molly asks him about his clothing and he’s like, “Mom, they don’t give a damn what I wear at the bank. They just care about me bringing in treasure.” And it’s just like…

Micah: They probably prefer he doesn’t wear anything. The less Bill wears, the better, at the bank. That’s what I’m thinking.

Laura: He had a little bit of a cowboy lilt to the impression you were doing there, Eric.

Eric: I don’t know what I was doing.

[Katie and Laura laugh]

Eric: It’s time to reveal that I’ve actually just secretly been cosplaying Bill – I got my hair back in a pony right now – this whole time.

Laura: Ooh, look at that.

Eric: But I don’t have the earring or the boots yet. I’m working on it.

[Katie laughs]

Eric: But yeah, just swearing in front of mom. This is something we haven’t yet seen any of the Weasleys do. Ron says “Bloody hell,” and I know it’s a British thing where some people are like, “That’s swearing,” but saying “They don’t give a damn, Mom, and your concerns are not valid” is about the coolest thing we see Bill do.

Laura: I was going to say, and then Molly follows his lead in Deathly Hallows.

Katie: Oh, yeah.

Eric: [laughs] This was a complete lead-in. Molly is like, “Well, my oldest son swears, so I can swear.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Katie: She’s not a regular mom; she’s a cool mom.

Laura: Yes, oh my God. Mean Girls reference.

[Katie laughs]

Micah: One of the questions that Andrew put in here was, “Who’s cooler? Is it Bill? Is it Charlie?” And then naturally, it goes to “Who’d you rather?” And then… [laughs]

Laura: Bill.

Micah: Bill? Okay.

Katie: Charlie.

Laura: Because, I mean, you’re going to take my MVP of the week title, but I feel like I have to justify this now. He’s a punk rock king, man.

Eric: He is.

Laura: So yeah, that’s my type.

Micah: Katie disagrees.

Katie: Charlie. I like Charlie. The short stocky guys. Why not?

Eric: Charlie, honestly, in how relaxed he is, shows a lot about how comfortable he is with his life. And that is something when you grow older, you start to appreciate more. It’s like, “Oh, the quieter, more shy, reserved people are the ones that don’t have to fight for everything because they’re happy.” And those end up being the more well-adjusted better partners anyway, I think.

Katie: Yeah.

Micah: You were talking about cowboy earlier. It’s kind of like, you have the farmer and the cowboy going head to head with each other here a bit.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The farmer and the cowboy. [laughs] I’d love to ascribe different occupations for each of the Weasleys and just continue going down the line. What does that make Percy?

Laura: Ooh. We could say some not nice things about what that makes Percy.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, we’re going to talk about Percy.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Okay, we’ll get to him.

Laura: But wait, wait, wait.

Micah: Go ahead.

Laura: Micah, Eric, we need to hear your answers.

Eric: Yeah, probably Bill.

Micah: Charlie.

Eric: I think that Charlie would be the better partner, but it’s Bill. Yeah.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I’m with Katie on this one.

Laura: Team Bill.

Eric: Well, Micah, do you want Charlie to take you on a magic dragonback ride? Because I would actually switch teams if he could let me ride a dragon.

[Micah laughs]

Katie: Yes.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, you could go make out in the corner of Gringotts, deep in the cave somewhere. So I mean, there’s that.

Eric: That’s kind of fun. Yeah, might get locked in your vault…

Micah: He can take you on a magic… what was that thing they ride down into…?

Eric: Train cart?

Micah: Yeah. It’s not as cool as a dragon, though. I’m sorry.

Laura: But they have dragons in Gringotts.

Eric: Yeah, I feel like both of them are very, pretty cool, and they set the bar really high. It’s amazing that none of the other Weasleys seem to really struggle under the pressure of Bill and Charlie being so dang cool. And I think with Fred and George, they took one look at their older brothers and were just like, “We’re not even going to try.”

[Eric and Katie laugh]

Laura: Probably.

Eric: Like, “We can’t touch that. But they’re not funny like we are.”

Laura: I think that was probably also part of Fred and George finding their identity and finding something that made them stand out, because they had so many siblings. We see Ron go through the same thing, to a more extreme extent, I would argue.

Micah: Let’s talk about Fred and George a little bit. I did want to just call out, though, that on the return to Privet Drive, we see a classic parenting situation where a child is getting reprimanded by one parent, and that parent – in this case, it’s Arthur – is using the other parent as a threat. The ol’ “Wait until your mother hears about this.” And we’ve all been there, right? Whether it was coming from Mom or coming from Dad, using whichever was the stricter parent that we didn’t want to get in trouble with.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: I feel like we’ve all been in that situation.

Laura: 1,000%.

Eric: It’s interesting to me because Arthur knows, just like Molly does, that what the twins did put his job at stake, but he still considers not telling Molly. Telling Molly, he seems to decide in the moment, would actually be slightly too far for their offense, even though he’s actually angry. We’ve never seen Arthur this upset at the kids, but he still doesn’t want to go quite so far as to actually telling Molly. He’ll only threaten to tell her. And it’s only because he fails to come up with an alternative thing when she overhears “Wait till I tell your mother” that he actually does end up telling her, and the twins actually get in trouble. But why does he back off? Because he just seems to not advocate enough for himself or the jeopardy that they put his job in just then.

Micah: That’s, to me, what the larger issue is, is that we know that this is… go back to connecting the threads, right, to what happened in Harry’s second year. He got into a lot of trouble. Maybe not initially because of what was done; it really was because of what Ron did, right? Not necessarily Fred and George, but Fred and George were part of that initial test run that they did to Privet Drive. And so I just feel like the twins should be a little bit more aware here. They’re putting their dad in a really tough situation, and they don’t seem to have that awareness.

Eric: Yeah. I think, too, it’s possibly just that whatever qualms we see Mrs. Weasley voice about them having no ambition and all this stuff we’ll get into talking even more about, Arthur doesn’t quite have that same problem with them. I think that’s just clear, because as much as they’ve just threatened his job, he really isn’t… I think it’s not that he’s amused by their antics that it is in Book 2, where he’s like, “How did it go?” which was more of a movie-ism, I think, too. But it’s not that. It really isn’t that. But I think that he understands them. There might in fact be… this is something that just occurred to me: What if Fred and George are in their very personalities channeling more of Arthur than any of the other kids that were born? Like, that whimsical nature. We never hear of Arthur Weasley really cracking a joke, but maybe that bit of him that’s a bit quirky, that likes plugs and Muggle things, maybe Arthur really does actually see a lot of himself or his young self in the twins specifically, so he goes easier on them.

Laura: I think so. I think he also knows that they’re already in deep crap with their mother…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … so he’s using it as a threat to get them to straighten up and maybe take this a little more seriously. But does he have any real intention of doing that to them? Because they are already on her bad side, and God knows what the rest of the summer has been like. But I think, too, you have a good point, Eric, because… I don’t know. When I think about someone like Arthur Weasley, he is the personification of a dad, the person that you imagine telling a dad joke. And how did that person start out as a younger wizard?

Eric: Probably with an appreciation for the sillier things in life.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Katie: And we already know that he likes to tinker with things, like the flying Ford Anglia or whatever it’s called. And then I think Ron even mentions, “Oh, we hear explosions coming from Fred and George’s room all the time.” It’s definitely where they get it from.

Eric: That’s such a good point as well. Now I’m remembering how in LEGO Harry Potter, Arthur Weasley’s skill is that he fixes things.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Oh yeah, that’s right.

Eric: Yeah, and Fred and George can pick a lock, and they have that Muggle… yeah, I think I’ve just found really what I think it is that lets Arthur let Fred and George off in this chapter and in general, is that he sees too much of himself in them to really go hard, at great personal risk.

Micah: Yeah, because it’s also about how the family is being represented in the outside world, particularly in the non-wizarding community. And we already know what kind of reaction the Dursleys have to wizarding kind, so this does not help Harry’s case either, quite frankly. It’s not just about Arthur and his job, but it’s also about now the fact that Harry has to go back to Privet Drive next summer, and Dudley has gone through this horrific experience. It’s probably going to get him treated even worse than he’s been treated before.

Eric: The interesting thing about this specifically is that Harry still is all laughs. He was all laughs at first when he was leaving Privet Drive, but this chapter, he does not actually ever calm down and say, “Actually, that was horrible.” He is still super, super, super laughing about it. When Fred and George are talking about it, when they’re being reprimanded by Arthur, Harry does not turn that corner ever yet, saying that anything has made his life worse. So it is being played up for laughs. And I think this is one of those things where being much older and you read the books, you’re like, “Oh, they jeopardized wizard/Muggle relations.” As a kid, you’re like, “Eh, Dudley had it coming.”

Micah: Not only that, they almost killed him. [laughs] Let’s be real.

Eric: Yeah, choking on your tongue is a horrible way to die. We’ve said that.

[Katie laughs]

Laura: Does it qualify as almost killing him if they knew their dad would be able to save him very easily?

Micah: It was Fred, right? He was really the perpetrator. I don’t think Fred would have let it get to that point. But the fact that he was willing to let it happen in the first place… and again, we talked about this I think a couple episodes back, but they’re not above testing a lot of the stuff on first years either, and we see that come into play.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Yeah, they have a really big blind spot. By the way, if anyone’s curious, we keep mentioning Fred being the one behind things. I will say, one of the new transcripts that’s up on the MuggleCast website is number 508, the episode where we do the deep dive into Fred and George Weasley, specifically how to tell them apart from one another. So just a shout-out because this book is so Fred and George Weasley centric. They’re in a lot more than I think in any other book, even Book 6, because Book 6 is about a lot of other stuff. So it’s very exciting to get this Weasley deep dive in this chapter.

Micah: Yeah, no. And shout-out to Meg for all her great work on the transcripts. But speaking about all of this, and just mentioned the testing on first years, Ron fills Harry in on what the twins have been up to, right? The forms that Molly found in their bedroom. And he actually sees their work for what it is, which is actually kind of cool, right? It’s a different kind of intellect that I don’t think that Molly, at least at this point, can appreciate. These two are very talented, and Molly is just blinded by your average governmental daily 9 to 5 type of job, unfortunately.

Eric: I’m trying to think about how our parents were, and Laura and Micah, please tell me, but when you first told them that you work for a Harry Potter website? “Work for.”

[Micah laughs]

Eric: “Oh, do you get paid?” was the first question, because they had trouble conceiving of what it was like to do something you’re more passionate about that didn’t, again, no, we weren’t paid. For more information, see After Darks…

[Katie laughs]

Eric: … and many history of, behind-the-scenes stories, among other… we were not paid. But what it gave us was in a different way rewarding, in the way that Fred and George’s joke shop right now is not netting them any money, but it’s giving them so much more than standardized tests or doing well on said tests could ever. And so it’s like trying to explain, again, working at MuggleNet to your parent. Molly doesn’t get it. It’s only when she’s literally in the premises of Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes in Diagon Alley that she gets it that this is something that is mainstream successful, that is going to allow them the ability to have a life for themselves, but it’s just not the traditional path.

Micah: Right, and I think that there’s this unrealistic expectation about them following in Arthur’s footsteps. The twins are clearly not future Ministry officials; that is just not in their DNA. Sorry, Molly. [laughs] It’s just not. And I think we all know people like that too. Growing up, there was this expectation like maybe you would follow in the family footsteps, or you’d take over a certain business, or you become a lawyer, you become a doctor, the traditional tropes, so to speak. And having friends when you look at them and you know them personally, you’re just like, “There’s no way that that’s going to happen, right? They’re going to follow their passion.” And that’s what Fred and George are doing. And that’s also what I think is so disconcerting about Molly in this situation, is that Fred and George are passionate about this, and she can’t even lean in a bit.

Eric: I think as the sterner parent, she has the harder job, especially because I think what she internalizes her role as being in the parenting of these Weasley children, is to set them on a path for success. And you can only know how to do that in the one way that you know how to do that. So by criticizing, or by coming down on them for not having any real aspirations, she’s really just hoping, I think, to spark them asking that same question in themselves. Turns out they’re right, that their side project has some value. They’re very lucky that it is because they should equally be thrown into Azkaban for experimenting on first years, I think – Micah, I really feel that way – so it’s kind of 50/50. But if you look at it, all the Weasley kids – we’re talking about Bill and Charlie – they all follow their own path too. So actually, what bothers me about Molly in this chapter specifically, is how freaked out she is about them. Because you have Bill and Charlie, who are home for the holidays, and they are the perfect example of how, again, your parenting works. These people have different jobs. They’re both totally different people, but they both are successful, and Percy looks great, so don’t necessarily be freaking out about Fred and George. But I think the reason it’s so heavy in this chapter is because it is, again, reintroducing us to this family, and working on setting up everything that’s going to come from not just the rest of this book, but the rest of the whole series.

Micah: Definitely. Katie, what do you make of Molly in this chapter?

Katie: I mean, I feel like she’s kind of hard on Fred and George, definitely. But then I was thinking about… with her, and she’s expecting them to go into the Ministry, but we don’t see that many jobs outside of the Ministry. So I feel like going into the Ministry, for any wizard, just seems more common. We see Charlie with dragons in Romania, and then we see Bill at Gringotts, but outside of those things, what other jobs are there for wizards?

Eric: Teacher.

Katie: Yeah, teacher.

Eric: That’s about it.

Laura: Yeah, or a shop owner.

Micah: Shop owner, yeah. [laughs]

Katie: And that’s what they become.

Laura: Yeah, there aren’t that many options, come to think of it.

Katie: You think of shop owner, like the ice cream, and then you’ve got the Quidditch ones, but it’s like, “Oh, just shop owner?”

Eric: Well, and Fred and George become those shop owners.

Katie: And they become that. So it’s like, oh, maybe it’s looked down upon to become a shop owner and it’s just more a lead to join the Ministry.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, in reality, there are people who would look down on a shop owner, which is obviously ridiculous. But I think this is another way that Harry Potter does a really good job of holding the mirror up to the reality that is the world we live in.

Micah: Oh, 100%. And we’re going to get to that [laughs] once we hit the dinner conversation. And even speaking of that, too, Laura, with Molly, I mean, she’s just so flustered. This chapter, for her, it’s classic parent being stressed out by everything happening inside of her home. And we don’t have to go into all the examples of things that are happening, but we opened the episode talking about the sauce boiling over. And it’s just her lack of attentiveness to the things that she would normally be focused on because she’s so focused on her kids. She’s so frustrated by what Fred and George have done, and you can just see how stress manifests. It’s actually interesting. I mean, I guess there are comparisons in our society, but just how her stress can manifest into her magic, and that’s causing all these weird things to go on around the kitchen. But again, we’ve all been there, where either we’ve been so stressed out that just things are happening scattered and all over the place, or we’ve pissed off our parents enough that we know, stay out of the room to let them cool down for however long it takes.

Eric: I will say, I do wonder how the twins are reprimanded. We don’t get an image of this because Harry is taken upstairs. There might be a loud noise they hear from down below, they know Fred and George are getting it, but there’s no real aftermath. Fred and George seem perfectly normal at dinner, and dinner is very soon after. So I feel like whatever happened, as mad as Mrs. Weasley might have been, I really doubt that it was the talking-to that maybe they deserved even. [laughs]

Laura: Right.

Micah: Just to wrap up Molly, I do think the harshest thing that she says… and it’s almost like you wonder, “Is she talking to Ron and Harry in the moment? Or is she just thinking out loud to herself?” because she’s like, “Oh, they have no ambition. They’re wasting their brains.” But it’s actually quite the opposite. They do have ambition, and they’re not wasting their brains. They’re super creative, super talented. She just can’t see it in this moment.

Laura: And the irony is Percy is upstairs toiling away in his room to basically be a drone for Barty Crouch. He’s being asked to write a synopsis of a larger report, I mean…

Eric: Okay, that’s pretty on the… yeah, all right.

Micah: It’s bad.

Laura: And so it’s the exact opposite of being creative and using your brain; not to say that doesn’t require brain power. But I would argue that what Fred and George are doing is a hell of a lot more intellectually demanding. I don’t know. Maybe someone is not going to agree with me on that.

Eric: No. The only other thing I’d add, because we’ve talked quite a bit about Fred and George, we’ve talked quite a bit about Molly, is that I have this idea that maybe she expects from them specifically some character traits reminiscent in her brothers, the reason being that her brothers Gideon and Fabian Prewett, who died during the first wizarding world war, are the inspiration or presumably inspiration for the first initial for Fred and George of their names. So their so-called namesake, for instance, if Molly… no matter how she felt about her brothers, if they were a certain way, I feel like Molly would focus specifically on Fred and George’s failings because of comparison to whoever her brothers were.

Laura: And that’s always such a dangerous thing that can happen if you place expectations on a child to live up to the legacy of a dead person that they never even met. I mean, if you want to talk about things that may have influenced Fred and George and molded them into the people they are, that would be one of them.

Micah: That’s a super interesting comparison, though. And I do wonder, to your point, Eric, did they have a recklessness about them, Gideon and Fabian, that ultimately got them killed in that first war?

Eric: Wow.

Micah: Because we see that very same recklessness in Fred and George. And maybe that’s her concern, especially knowing that there’s a war. I mean, Voldemort is not back yet, but he’s going to be pretty soon.

Laura: Right.

Eric: That would be a perfect way of explaining Molly’s apprehension toward their behavior.

Laura: Right, not that they don’t live up to Gideon and Fabian, but that they’re just like them.

Eric: Oh, God. [laughs]

Laura: Go ahead, Katie.

Katie: We know that Gideon and Fabian join the Order of the Phoenix and Molly didn’t, but I mean, that sounds very reckless.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Knowing that all the Weasleys are Gryffindors anyway paints them all as reckless a little bit, I think. It’s also a Wampus trait.

Micah: Ooh.

[Katie laughs]

Micah: So let’s talk about Percy. And Happy Birthday, Chris Rankin.

Eric: Yes!

Laura: Happy Birthday.

Micah: Now a member of the 40 club, so welcome. It’s a great group to be a part of.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But anyway, yeah, so we talked about how Percy is interrupted several times in this chapter when he’s trying to do his Ministry work. First time it’s by Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny going upstairs, then a little bit later on, it’s actually kind of a Fred and George moment from Bill and Charlie during their table wars, as I’d call it. They’re trying to annoy Percy; let’s be honest. There’s no reason to have dueling tables in the backyard. But what I really wanted to focus on with Percy is there’s a lot of these what I would consider to be corporate culture references that are worth paying attention to, and I’ll just run through them real fast and we can react to them in totality. So Percy is trying to make himself and his work seem more important than they actually are, right? In truth, most people don’t care about cauldron thickness. Laura, you touched on this earlier, unnecessary reporting and paperwork. Percy is obsessed with work, and it’s noted that he would not come home if Arthur didn’t make him. And he’s in love, head over heels, with Barty Crouch, Sr. So there’s a lot to digest here. But this is the nature of corporate culture – at least that’s been my experience – in Western society. When you talk about the unnecessary reporting, trying to make yourself seem more important than you are in terms of the work that you do… not necessarily that we do that, but you may know people who do that. And then being obsessed with work, not coming home, or just not focusing on work/life balance, your family, things like that. And I get it, he’s young, but I think it’s a little bit of a statement on corporate culture.

Eric: I think that’s very apt, and it’s definitely a statement on corporate… the things you point out are very… that feels like it would be an office sitcom plot to have. “Oh, I have to have this report on cauldron bottoms due,” and it’s like, nobody is going to read that. But for me, I think work is stability. Percy is happy to be stable. When he comes home, his older brothers who are home for the holiday or whatever are banging tables together, as loudly as possible, making them race each other and hit each other and crash and crack. There’s none of that at the Ministry. The Ministry is quiet. The Ministry is solitude. The Ministry is Percy’s happy place, not because he’s a kiss-ass who has no real imagination, but because it’s not the chaos of everywhere else. And so I sympathize with Percy, as somebody who always said they would have loved a job where they could wear a suit every day to work. That’s the kind of job Percy has. I never got that kind of a job; I’m the work with my hands kind of guy. But it just is a different lifestyle. It’s just a different mentality, and none of the other Weasleys have. Arthur does it, but I think that it’s really Percy that we see that really just likes the feeling of working for the government and helping in a way.

Laura: I think that’s true, but I think it’s also true that he’s a kiss-ass. [laughs] Multiple truths, y’all. Multiple truths exist.

Eric: Multiple truths! There we go. We’re going to ring a bell every time that comes up now.

Laura: I know.

Micah: I wanted to riff off of something that you said, Eric, though, because I do think Percy behaves this way because of how his family treats him. I think there’s a part of that that we need to take into consideration here, especially when you’re thinking about something like he doesn’t want to come home. It may not necessarily be because he loves his work at the Ministry, although that can be true too. I think a lot of it has to do with how he’s treated by his family, particularly by his brothers. Not as much so… we don’t see as much, at least right now, with Molly and with Arthur, but he’s really not treated well by Fred and George. Ron and him seem to have a okay type of relationship. But it’s also clear, at least from the very little we see with Bill and Charlie, they like to make fun of him a little bit too.

Eric: He’s their little brother. None of the other Weasleys have that on Percy.

Micah: Right.

Eric: So there’s that angle to it. Yeah, I agree. And the thing about Ron and Percy’s relationship – I would usually agree with you, Micah, that they get along – this chapter Ron bullies Percy. That’s how I would characterize their interaction when they’re going up the stairs. Ron is the one that says to his face, “Oh, that’ll change the world, that report will.” And he says that directly to Percy’s face, and I’m like, “What’s your angle, Ron, here?” Because that’s hurtful. That’s telling his older brother that his older brother’s work doesn’t matter or won’t make a lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Is that regular negging? I don’t have a brother, so is it really?

Laura: I have a brother. I think that is very normal.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: A younger brother, too, I will add.

Eric: To the older brother, just being insolent? I don’t know. Ron goes pretty hard.

Laura: Yeah, he does, but Percy is also being so annoying this summer. I feel like it’s one of these things where it’s this vicious cycle, right? Percy has, and has always had, a very serious personality. Because of that, he takes it too far sometimes. And because of that, no one in his family takes him seriously except for his mother, and so he seeks out environments where he feels like he is receiving more respect and being taken more seriously, which feeds his addiction to being so serious, and then he comes home and he brings that with him. Kind of to Micah’s point about somebody being too into their corporate culture and not being able to turn it off when they leave the building.

Micah: Right, yeah.

Laura: He comes home and does that, and his family is like, “Wow, you’re extra annoying today.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, it’s the inability to be able to separate the two, so much so that… and I’ve been guilty of it, too, where I come home and it’s like, “Oh, I’m on my work computer, I’m looking at my work phone,” and it’s eight or nine o’clock at night. And family is like, “Well, what are you doing? Can’t you separate that out?” And I think there is some of that with Percy. The other thing I just looked up, too, is it’s really only Harry that is kind to Percy, because he asks him straight up, “What are you working on?” And that’s probably the nicest thing that anybody has said to Percy these last couple of weeks that he’s been there.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: The bar is so low, it’s beneath Gringotts right now.

Katie: I thought the same thing; I was like, “Harry is being so nice.” I think it’s just because he’s a guest, but he’s also curious about the wizarding world, too, like, “Oh, cauldron bottom thickness, that must be important.” It’s not, according to Ron.

Eric: That is such a good point, Katie, too, is that as the reader, we are the interested party. Harry is the conduit for us to figure out more about the wizarding world in this moment. So it’s funny because we get this information, but it’s characterized as being unimportant,

Katie: Yeah.

Micah: Right. I think even Ginny gets a couple shots in there, too, if I’m not mistaken. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s real bad.

Micah: All right, so wrapping up our conversation about family dynamics, the last thing to touch on here – and this actually comes up at the very tail end of the chapter – it’s noted that Fred and George sent Percy some Norwegian dragon dung in his office inbox. And I’ve got to say, this is a little bit too far. This is crossing that line, because it’s his work; it’s his place of employment. To me, that’s just… you don’t go there.

Laura: I bet Fred did it. It was Fred’s idea.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: There has to be one time when George had the idea, but…

Katie: But I mean, Charlie is home for the summer. So where did he get the dragon dung?

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good question. I just don’t do well with any kind of that flaming dog poo kind of pranks and stuff. Just really leave a bad smell in my nose.

[Eric and Katie laugh]

Eric: You just think about how awful it would have…

Micah: Yeah, it is Fred who says, “We sent it.”

Laura: Mhmm!

Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, there you go.

Katie: He’s like, “It was personal. It was us.”

Micah: But see, that’s trying to embarrass Percy on a whole different level.

Eric and Katie: Yeah.

Eric: That goes too far. Well, I’ve just got to say, I appreciate Percy explaining it away. “A sample of fertilizer from Norway.” [laughs] He’s clever. He thinks on his feet.

Micah: All right, so the second part of this discussion is actually about Percy. It’s continuing our Percy conversation because I think it’s important that we really listen carefully to what Percy has to say, because there’s a lot of things he tells us in this dinner conversation. Not to dismiss what else is going on at the other end of the table, but we get a little bit more insight into a number of characters, some of who we’ve never heard anything about before, some of whom are named dropped in the very first chapter. So we will get to that in just a minute. But Barty Crouch, Sr., we talked a little bit about him in this discussion. He’s Percy’s boss, he’s the Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, and we’ve been told that he’s working on the Quidditch World Cup. Outside of that, not a whole lot more, despite the amount of ass kissing that Percy does and just the amount of praise that he gives him. Anything else we want to say about Barty, Sr.?

Eric: For me, what interests me is that Barty Crouch, Sr. is interested in Bertha Jorkins’s disappearance, this little factoid that is snuck so cleverly in and immediately explained. So Bertha Jorkins worked for the department at one time. She has been all around; she worked for so many departments. You don’t think it’s significant. The fact that she once worked for Barty Crouch, Sr. is exactly how she wound up at Barty Crouch, Sr.’s house that one time when she happened to see Barty Crouch, Jr. That one bit of information that is exactly the same bit of information that Voldemort takes that formulated this whole plan and this whole book, and it’s something Percy says. “Crouch is distracted, he’s such a great man, he cares about this former employee he once had,” and you’re just like, “I buy it.” This is the most important bit of information hidden in the least likely place.

Micah: That’s a really good call-out.

Laura: It is.

Micah: There’s also Ludo Bagman, who we will meet pretty shortly in the next couple of chapters. He is the Head of the Department of Magical Games and Sports, and he’s the one who has lost one of his employees, Bertha Jorkins. She went to Albania and she never came back. And given what we witnessed in the first chapter, should we as readers expect that Voldemort maybe has something planned for the Quidditch World Cup?

Eric: Yeah, probably, especially because it’s been named dropped in now two chapters, and these are the early chapters where no names are spared. They’re all very important.

Micah: All right. Now, let’s get to Bertha, because she gets a whole lot of shade thrown her way in this chapter. [laughs]

Laura: For real.

Micah: I really think Percy just goes hard on her. And I wonder, given everything that you all talked about in the last episode, Laura, with Chloé and Meg and Pam, could this be a bit of a larger commentary by J.K. Rowling on how women are perceived in certain work environments? I think it’s important to remember that this was written in the early 2000s. And there’s a heavy influence for J.K. Rowling, given her experiences in workplace environments in the ’80s and ’90s, so not necessarily… even though it’s written in the early 2000s, she’s not drawing on her experiences in the early 2000s; she’s likely drawing on her experiences in her prior careers. So, curious to get your thoughts there.

Laura: Yeah, well, I will say those experiences are a tale as old as time, because this very much still exists with certain people in certain workplaces. I don’t know, though, if I think Percy is actually participating in this right here. He could be, right? I think it totally depends on your interpretation. I really get the sense that Percy is kind of an equal opportunity pick-me, right? He is the definition of a pick-me. And I think that he is someone who will put anyone else down to make himself seem better, seem superior. We have to remember 30 seconds before he said all of this about Bertha Jorkins, he was talking smack about Ludo Bagman too.

Eric: Well, I don’t even think it’s about being a pick-me, which is a fun word I’m just learning.

Laura: Oh, really? Eric, get on TikTok. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I never… oh, really? That explains it.

Laura: TikTok explains so many things. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. But I think what it is is he’s simply regurgitating the company line, the company line about Bertha that she was forgetful, that she’s department to department… Percy doesn’t have the maturity to think for himself at this point. He is only saying… it’s like the kids who – we’re all guilty of this – your first political views are your parents’ political views. You get in trouble for saying something ignorant, because it’s what you heard at home. This is Percy at work. He’s just saying whatever he was told, or he’s repeating what grownups are saying in the office about Bertha, and so I don’t think it’s him specifically commenting at all on his opinion of her. I doubt he knew her.

Katie: Yeah, I was going to say that he’s only been working at the Ministry for a couple of months. Did he actually even know her?

Eric: No.

Micah: That’s a great question.

Laura: Probably not. And to that point, Eric, this got me thinking again about a real world work comparison, something that I think, unfortunately, can happen in most workplaces. I think Percy has been adopted by a toxic colleague who lives for office drama…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … and has looped him in on all the hot goss, all the hot office goss, so Percy is basically parroting the limited information that he has to make himself sound more important and knowledgeable. I feel like Percy is on the toxic co-worker pipeline right now. He is setting himself up to become that person who is way too involved in the personal affairs of people at work and knows way too much about their personal lives, or so he thinks, and perpetuates office gossip. It’s not looking good for Percy at this point. [laughs]

Eric: No, it’s because his own family doesn’t accept him that he’s found this new family at work, but the new family at work is slated for demolition because the government is going down and Voldemort is coming up. And so I really feel for Percy because of the trajectory that he’s on. He’s not going to come out looking good. It’s this trajectory that puts him against his family in the next book and the next one.

Micah: Yeah, and it’s the way that he delivers all of this, is with an air of superiority. Because he works for the Ministry, he’s able to speak so eloquently and from a position of what he perceives to be power. And we actually see that a little bit later on when he teases the Triwizard Tournament, but doesn’t give any information about it.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: But I actually like that as a potential title, Laura, for this episode. “Percy the Parrot.”

Laura: Oh my God, I love that. Andrew, do it.

[Katie and Laura laugh]

Micah: We’ve got a little alliteration going on. Yeah, let’s just talk a little bit about some of the things that Percy says. He says Bertha has gotten lost plenty of times before, that she’s “hopeless,” she’s been shunted from department to department for years, and that she’s more trouble than she’s worth. And he also repeats something that Ludo says, that she probably misread the map and ended up in Australia instead of Albania. Wow.

Laura: I cannot.

Eric: [laughs] That’s actually funny, though. That’s actually… can I say, a lot of this is really bad hating on women. That one’s funny. I just laugh at that.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Okay, okay. But I have to bring this up. Because when I read this, I pulled up a world map.

Eric: Augh.

Laura: And I just have to say, if Bertha Jorkins is trying to go to Albania and she accidentally ends up in a country whose name the first three letters is AUS, I just want to point out Austria is right there.

Eric: That’s a lot closer. You’re right.

Laura: That’s a lot closer.

Eric: Yeah, well, if the Portkeys are alphabetized to each of these places, Australia isn’t as far away as it is geographically.

Laura: Yeah, I guess that’s true. But why stay there? [laughs] Come back.

Eric: Right. Well, these things don’t actually hold up against a lick of… and that’s actually the dangerous part that I have in here, is all of this that we see Percy saying about Bertha, whether it’s his opinion or not – and I think it is his opinion, as well, that she’s more trouble than she’s worth – that’s a really dangerous thing because this behavior that we see from the Ministry in not searching for one of their own employees is exactly the same behavior that denies Voldemort’s return and endangers the wizarding world and allows the government to fall later. It’s the same exact mechanism, this complete failure to conceive that something deeper and dire has really occurred, and playing it down because it’s convenient, because it means that the public won’t be in an uproar over it. And it buys you some time to go on being as mediocre and status quo as you always are. They are choosing what’s easy over what’s right.

Micah: And for Bagman, we don’t know him yet. That is a classic representation of his personality to say something like that. But when it’s coming through Percy, it just doesn’t land the same way, because we haven’t had the opportunity to meet Ludo yet. And I also think – this is going off of what you said, Eric – Ludo just doesn’t really seem like he takes much responsibility at all here either. He’s willing to jokingly suggest that Bertha is inept in the sense that she can’t figure out where she really wanted to go, but he’s also inept for not doing more to go and find her. He’s bad at his job. That’s his employee that he should….

Eric: Absolutely. Oh, he’s horrible at his job.

Laura: 100%.

Eric: Yeah. He’s a games and sports man, an ex-Quidditch player that just needs to get back to the games and sports.

Micah: And clearly she’s not challenged in any way. She works for the Ministry, so she must be of some level of intellect to get that job in the first place. And maybe she’s department hopping because she’s qualified in multiple areas and she has multiple skill sets. Why does it have to be because she’s bad at her job?

Eric: There you go! She’s damned if she does, she’s damned if she doesn’t. This is complete cultural commentary from this era. Justice for Bertha.

Laura: Yeah, not even just from this era. I’m telling you.

Eric: Oh, God.

Laura: That kind of thing is alive and well, unfortunately.

Micah: Well, the interesting thing about all this is that it’s so seemingly easy as a reader to just glance over this conversation and not pay it much attention, but there is so much happening between the lines in what is being said here. And I figured we could just wrap up the discussion – we teased this a little bit earlier – Percy alludes to the Triwizard Tournament. He’s being a little bit of a prick about it.

[Eric, Katie, and Laura laugh]

Micah: He’s clearly been going on about this with Ron and Fred and George for a while now. And I think that this was his opportunity, and he missed it, to be the cool brother who knew about this event and chose not to share the information with them.

Eric and Katie: Yeah.

Katie: He’s just out of Hogwarts; he knows how cool this would have been if he was at Hogwarts. He could have shared.

Eric: That’s a good point, Katie.

Laura: Honestly, I feel like a cool brother in this moment would have still kept it under wraps. You don’t want to give away too much; you want there to be an air of mystery. But you could literally say something like, or give a fun hint like, “Hey, you might want to learn some French. Wink.”

[Katie and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, that’s awesome.

Laura: Something like that, to be like, “Wait, something international is happening.”

Eric: Or “Charlie, we’ll be seeing you soon again, won’t we? Eh? Eh?”

[Katie laughs]

Eric: And then have multiple brothers talking about it or teasing it up. I just love that it’s fallen flat on Percy’s face the way that Harry is genuinely interested. And he looks to Ron and Ron is just like, “No, don’t, we’ve all… he wants us to ask. We’re not asking. None of us have ever asked, because he wants it more every time we don’t ask.” [laughs]

Laura: Don’t we all know someone like that, who drops heavy-handed hints clearly wanting you to ask about something? And you’re like, “I am not going to ask.” [laughs]

Eric: Give Percy a break. Everybody just give Percy a break. He’s literally running from home because the Ministry is quieter than his house. This kid needs some love and some support from his family.

Katie: I do have a soft spot for Percy, though. He’s not that bad.

Laura: He’s not. He’s misguided.

Katie: Yeah.


Odds & Ends


Micah: All right, well, I think that wraps up the discussion. We’ll do a couple of odds and ends here from the chapter. And what I liked about this discussion is we really didn’t spend any time with Harry, Ron, or Hermione, [laughs] even though they’re the lens through which we see all of this transpire. So we touched on this earlier, that Ginny turns red upon seeing Harry for the first time. This is just in case that, as a reader, you forgot that she has a crush On Harry. We also get the information that she is responsible for naming Pigwidgeon, which was a trivia question. Quizzitch question right, Eric? A couple weeks ago.

Eric: I believe so. That’s correct.

Laura: Yes, it was. And just for anyone who needs a reminder or might be curious, “Pigwidgeon” is a noun that means an insignificant or simple person. [laughs]

Micah: Oh, well.

Eric: Aww.

Laura: And Ginny thinks this is sweet.

Eric: That says more about Ginny, yeah.

Laura: I know, and Ron was like, “Ginny says it’s sweet.” And I was like, “What?”

Micah: No.

Laura: [laughs] “It’s sweet. He’s so simple.”

Micah: Well, remember her kids’ names. That’s all I’ll say.

Laura: True.

[Katie laughs]

Eric: Yeah, you got me there.

Laura: We should have seen it coming, honestly.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Also thought it was important that only 11 were dining in the garden, so we don’t have to worry about the first to rise.

Eric: So there aren’t any pets in somebody’s pockets that are secretly grown men that we could count towards this total?

Micah: No.

Eric: Ugh.

Micah: Unless you want to count the garden gnomes and Crookshanks.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Unfortunately, Andrew is not here; I was going to have fun with him on this. But sports, bro; we get Viktor Krum name dropped towards the end of this chapter. We also get just a little bit more insight into the Quidditch World Cup with some of the other countries that are mentioned and how everything played out for us to get to this final between Ireland and Bulgaria. And then lastly, Harry updates Ron and Hermione on his correspondence with Sirius, but doesn’t tell them about his scar or his dream. So this is one of those situations where Harry is just so happy, he doesn’t want to ruin the moment. And that could be looked back maybe in a couple chapters, maybe at the end of this book, as being a little bit of a misstep.

Eric: I agree.

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: But that wraps up Chapter 5.


MVP of the Week


Eric: Well, now it’s time, I believe, for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Eric: And I will give it to the garden gnomes for surviving Crookshanks as well as keeping the cat occupied. The reason Crookshanks isn’t bothering anyone right now is because the gnomes have his undivided attention. I think that’s cool that they are still alive. Good for them.

Laura: [laughs] I love how nobody has any objections to this.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s like, the gnomes are taken care of, the cat’s busy, this is great. Hermione, you want to just leave him here?

Katie: It makes sense. [laughs]

Eric: Cats need exercise. It’s good for them.

Laura: I’m going to give mine, as I said earlier on in the show, to Bill, my punk rock king.

Micah: And I’m going to give it to Hermione because she was able to read the room a couple times in this chapter and just usher Harry and Ron to different locations, so I thought she had pretty good awareness in this one.

Katie: I’m giving mine to Charlie for explaining the Quidditch World Cup and how Ireland got to where it’s supposed to be.

Eric: I love it.

Micah: Not for the muscles?

Katie: And the muscles. [laughs]

Micah: And the burn? I guess we can mention Andrew gave his to the Burrow for being a cool place to hang and a wonderful wizarding world space.

Eric: Any time we’re at the Burrow it should get the MVP.

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Eric: If you have feedback about today’s discussion, you can of course contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone and attached to an email to us at MuggleCast@gmail.com, or by using our phone number 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453.

Micah: Next week Goblet of Fire Chapter 6, “The Portkey.”

Eric and Micah: Ooh.


Quizzitch


Eric: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s Quizzitch question was, of course, how many times did Harry physically visit the Burrow during the seven-book series? And this was a pretty hard one. I was pleased because it divided everyone; we don’t have as many winners as usual. A lot of people thought it was various numbers here. The correct answer was five, five times Harry actually physically visits the Burrow. And as Elizabeth K. put it, the answer breakdown is like this: Before the second year with the flying car, before the fourth year for the World Cup, before the sixth year Harry visits after getting Slughorn, the sixth year Harry visits for Christmas, and before the seventh year of Hogwarts for Bill and Fleur’s wedding. Elizabeth also said, “I thought it was more,” so there’s that. I will say also, Laura, there was a request from somebody named “I am Molly Weasley, she’s a girl boss.”

Laura: Oh.

Eric: The request was for you to read, and not me, the additional winners of this week’s Quizzitch. Are you interested?

Laura: Oh my god, yes. I’m so excited.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: I feel like this is… okay.

Micah: What an honor this is.

Eric: I know you can do it justice. I know. You’ve got to have all the fun.

Laura: I mean, we’re going to see. I don’t know if I can live up to Eric, but we’re going to see if I can fill these shoes. All right, last week’s…

Eric: So these were the other correct winners, yes.

Laura: Yes, the other correct winners for last week’s question: Callie Loves Quizzitch; Cate; Dalia the 13-year-old; Dobby will you marry me I really wanna be mentioned here please let you guys get this dear God…

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: … Does anyone else play try to guess which is Micah’s name?; Elizabeth K.; Give Us More Chloé; Grant Chapman; Hagrid’s Hog; Hagrid’s hippogriff eats ferret Draco; Hallow the uncreative Wolf; I am Molly Weasley (she a girlboss); – shout out – I wish we could go back to regular times; I’m Pringles that don’t come in the hard to grab can; IvyBug2013; Justice for Winky; LC; Light the fire tell your stories; Load of Quaffles; Maty B.; My son thought Micah was Tom Segura…

[Micah laughs]

Laura: … One Elder Wand to Rule Them All; The mirror over the mantle piece that cannot abide untucked shirts, hashtag unsung hero…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … They see me Rowling; Visit the Burrow at Hogwarts on an Island in Daybreak Utah (search Instagram); okay. Voldemort Said “It’s Horcruxing Time” and started Horcruxing all over the place. Wow.

Eric: Yay.

Laura: So y’all, I just have to say, Eric makes that look so much easier than it is.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, to be fair you had three seconds’ notice, so I think you did excellent on that.

Laura: That’s fair. Thank you very much. Any time you want me to read those, I’d be happy to. They delight me.

Eric: Honestly, yeah.

Laura: They delight me. I don’t know why, they just do. It’s the simple things in life.

Micah: I did not submit this week, by the way.

Eric: You didn’t submit this week? Okay.

Micah: No.

Laura: Oh, I was going to guess…

Micah: Which one?

Laura: There was a dirty one. Hang on…

Micah: Hagrid’s Hog?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I was like, “Where’s the dirty one? That’s the one.” [laughs]

Micah: It wasn’t me. So clearly, I’m having an effect, which is fantastic.

Eric: Amazing, amazing. Micah is like, “My work here is done.” So here is… you know what, since I’m on a kick, on a generous kick of having the rest of you do Quizzitch for me, Katie or Micah, would you like to read next week’s Quizzitch question?

Katie: Sure. Next week’s Quizzitch question is: According to Amos Diggory, what family couldn’t get tickets to the Quidditch World Cup?

Eric: Submit your correct answers to us on the Quizzitch form located on the MuggleCast website by going to MuggleCast.com and clicking “Quizzitch” at the top of the main nav, or typing in your URL or search bar MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. And as some closing reminders here, don’t forget the MuggleCast and #Millennial overstock store is now open. Visit MuggleMillennial.Etsy.com to get one-of-a-kind MuggleCast gifts, while supplies last. Also, Millennial gifts. These are great holiday gifts to add to your wish list or for the MuggleCast and Millennial fans in your life.

Micah: And if you’re enjoying MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, tell a friend about the show. We’d also appreciate it if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app.

Laura: And you can visit Patreon.com if you want to support the show and receive early access to the show, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, yearly physical gifts, and much more. If you’re an Apple Podcasts subscriber, you can tap into the show and receive early and ad-free access to each episode for $5.99 a month. Whether pledging through Patreon or Apple Podcasts, free trials and annual subscriptions are available. And that Patreon link is Patreon.com/MuggleCast.

Micah: And of course, you can visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and, of course, to contact us.

Eric: That’s right. And we would like to thank Katie for joining us on this episode of MuggleCast.

Katie: Thank you for having me. This was great.

Micah: Great job.

Laura: You’re fabulous.

Katie: This was a lot of fun.

Eric: So that will be it for MuggleCast Episode 635. I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Katie: And I’m Katie.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Eric: Bye.

Transcript #634

 

MuggleCast 634 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #634, Analyzing the Representation of Women in Harry Potter


Show Intro


Laura: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. This week is a week for the books, because the girls are taking over, so get ready to party with us this week…

Chloé: Woo! [laughs]

Laura: … and also have a lot of meaningful discussion about representation of women in the wizarding world. This is super timely that we have this panel of lovely ladies together, but it’s also worth pointing out that we’ve never had an all-women led episode of MuggleCast in the 630-something episodes that we have. [laughs]

Chloé: Andrew, Eric, and Micah found dead.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh no, the chaos is already kicking off.

Chloé: Yeah, I’m here, so…

Laura: Chloé is like, “In case anyone didn’t know, I’m here for the girls episode.”

Chloé: To bring the chaos, yes. [laughs]

Laura: But I thought to get us started today to meet everyone on the panel… secret for all the listeners: You know everyone on this panel already, so you’re going to be really, really happy to hear who all we have with us today. And to do this, we’re going to go around and do some intros and share our fandom IDs, so your House, your favorite movie, and your favorite book.

Meg: I’m Meg, my House is Ravenclaw. And I was just on a MuggleCast episode in July, a Chapter by Chapter for Prisoner, and so I introduced myself then, but as a reminder, my favorite book and movie are both Goblet of Fire. So I was really excited that the Goblet of Fire commentary happened because that movie is just a good time.

Chloé: It was so good.

Laura: And I just want to take a moment to shout out, Meg also received another plug on the show recently because she is spearheading the revival of MuggleCast transcripts.

Chloé: Woo!

Pam: Wow.

Meg: It’s true.

Laura: So allow me to thank you, Meg, because it is such an undertaking, but our listeners are so excited about it.

Meg: Oh, thank you for saying that.

Laura: And it is an important move in the right direction in terms of making our show more accessible.

Chloé: We love accessibility.

Meg: I love it too! I love accessibility. I love the orderliness of having transcripts for every episode. But I’m now going to be hyper aware of everything I say…

[Chloé and Laura laugh]

Meg: … because I’m like, “I’m going to have to transcribe that.” If I don’t finish the sentence, I’m going to have to put in that ellipsis there.

[Pam laughs]

Chloé: Oh my God. Now I’m terrified of what my speech is going to look like written out. [gasps] Meg!

Laura: It’s fine, it’s fine.

Meg: It’s going to be really nice. It’s going to be really nice, I promise.

Laura: They’ll be like, “Oh, this looks like the MuggleCast social copy. That must be Chloé.”

Chloé: [laughs] Yes, everyone knows exactly what I sound like and speak like. Yeah, it’s true.

Pam: Hi, I’m Pam. I can’t remember the last time I was on, but it was probably a couple of years. I also co-host Millennial with Laura and Andrew, so shout-out to anybody that’s listening to this that also listens to our other show. My House is Gryffindor, and my favorite movie – I don’t know if this is controversial – but it’s Prisoner of Azkaban.

Chloé: No, it’s not. Not in my opinion.

Pam: Oh, really?

Chloé: I think it’s gorgeous.

Meg: That’s not controversial.

Pam: Well, with Prisoner, too, I don’t think anybody that was a fan when it first came out actually enjoyed it, because there’s so much that’s missing. But that is the movie in the franchise that’s grown on me the most, so it’s now my favorite. And my favorite book is Order of the Phoenix.

Chloé: Yeah, that movie is gorgeous to watch.

Meg: It’s so pretty.

Pam: Yeah, it’s also… I don’t know if you all ever talk about this, but something that really strikes me is that Prisoner of Azkaban is directly responsible for setting so much of the tone as far as the imagery we’re familiar with in the wizarding world.

Laura: Yes.

Chloé: So true.

Pam: And it’s so incredible that what Alfonso Cuarón was able to do with the look and the style in Prisoner is what ended up sticking, as opposed to what Chris Columbus started with.

Chloé: Thank God.

Pam: So I could talk about Prisoner of Azkaban the movie for hours. I love it so much.

Chloé: The costuming too. The costuming for me is such a big transition in POA, and it’s so much more lived-in and realistic. No, I’m all for it.

Laura: Yeah, I agree. And I just have to say, this is such a great start to the show, because oftentimes I feel like I’m on an island when it comes to defending the POA movie.

[Chloé laughs]

Pam: What?

Laura: Now, I will say, it’s not…

Chloé: The boys don’t get it. [laughs]

Laura: I mean… I’m kidding, I’m kidding. I love my Muggle boys. But it is great to hear that other people feel the same way I do about that movie. Again, it’s not a perfect movie, but none of the movies are, and I think tonally, it just really set the right direction for the rest of the series. But all of that said, Chloé, you want to go ahead and fandom ID? I know people already know our fandom IDs. We put Meg and Pam on the spot; we gotta.

Meg: I want a refresher.

Chloé: My name is Chloé. I am the Social Media Manager; I have been on MuggleCast quite a bit. My House is Slytherin, and I’m damn proud. My favorite book and my favorite movie are also Goblet of Fire, and that’s not just because of Fleur, but definitely a big part of it. Yeah, I’m so excited. This is a dream come true, having everyone on here.


Main Discussion: Femininity in Harry Potter


Laura: So I do want to take a moment to actually talk about the inspiration for this episode, because Chloé, this was your idea. It’s something that we’ve been chatting around in the background for several months at this point about timing and getting the right people together to do an all girls MuggleCast. So could you share a little bit more about your idea?

Chloé: Yeah, we threw it around, God, a few months ago. Laura and I did an episode together, and people were like, “That was hot, loved it, want Laura and Chloé and more women on the pod.” And I was like, “Yes, say less, let’s make it happen, girls’ takeover.” And then it got mentioned a few times, and I feel like Goblet of Fire is also the best time because I feel like we actually really start seeing the topics we’re going to talk about today. So I’m excited and really grateful that all of you were so game.

Laura: Yeah, super stoked about it, and really excited for this discussion. Chloé did a great job fleshing out the discussion here. And as we get into it, Chloé, I know you said that you picked this panel of women because we’re all girls’ girls. For anyone who’s not aware of what a girls’ girl is, could you fill us in?

Chloé: A girls’ girl to me is someone that supports women always, and empowers women, and lifts other women up. Someone who doesn’t feel like they need to compete against other women. I feel like that’s a trope we see a lot in especially 2000s media, women pitted against each other, the idea of the mean girl. But everyone on this panel is a girls’ girl, and that is exactly what I wanted. It’s also a feeling. You know when you meet someone in the wild, and you’re like, “Wow, I feel so supported by you and your energy is so good”? A girls’ girl is someone you meet in the bathroom of a bar, and she tells you that your hair looks pretty and then you feel really good about yourself. That’s the feeling we’re trying to invoke through this panel.

Laura: Yeah. And I felt that, too, immediately when we hopped on, even before the show started. Yeah, it’s just a different feeling to be in a discussion with all women. Again, I love my boys; they’re great, and I would never change my team. But there’s just something special and unique about being with your community, so I really appreciate the idea. But with that said, you alluded, Chloé, to the idea that a lot of this discussion is going to be centered around the portrayal of femininity in the Harry Potter series, I think with a special focus on Goblet of Fire. Could you intro this first topic for us?

Chloé: Sure. We’re talking about the demonization of femininity in Harry Potter and the “I’m not like other girls” pandemic.

Laura: Sigh.

Chloé: Yeah, sigh. Something super prevalent in 2000s media, TV, books, movies. I think we’re definitely seeing a shift, but it’s something that we grew up with. And I definitely wanted to talk about it just because obviously we’re all Harry Potter experts and we love it so much. But also, as someone who considers herself to be very feminine and very girly, and not feeling like that was actually good or acceptable growing up because I wasn’t going to be taken as seriously or it wasn’t as good as the women that we idolize when we’re growing up – like the Hermiones of the world – and even for example Mean Girls, the idea that feminine is mean and feminine is vain. So I’m excited to deep dive into it. For all my girly girls, you are valid. I’m taking you seriously. I’m excited to talk about how it’s empowering to be feminine, despite maybe what JKR says.

Laura: Yeah, and how femininity is not just one thing.

Chloé: Absolutely.

Laura: It’s multifaceted, and femininity can present in a host of different ways. I mean, just to put it out there, I feel like I do not fit the “girly girl” aesthetic as much as maybe you feel like you do, Chloé, right? But it doesn’t make either one of us any more or less woman.

Chloé: And we’re all equally feminine, right? Just in different ways.

Laura: Yeah. Let’s talk about growing up and who we resonated with as kids reading these books, or at least when we were younger. Was there a particular character that growing up we really wanted to be like that person?

Pam: For me, it usually wasn’t the women on the page. But I really appreciate, Laura, that you brought up the fact that you don’t present as feminine, for example, as Chloé does, who self-identifies as a girly girl. For me, growing up, I was just really self-conscious for a number of reasons. I’m Mexican-American, for anyone who doesn’t know, and I grew up in a predominantly white community, so already, I was predisposed to feel other, like the other girl, right? Or feeling like I’m not like the other girls, because the other girls were white, and they were more delicate, and they were thinner. And so escaping into something like Harry Potter… and I think a lot of women fall into this trap; probably a lot of young girls that read the series when they were coming out alongside a few of us as well fall into this trap of feeling insecure and not pretty enough, and so then they do identify with the women in this series who are respected beyond just what they bring as far as looks goes. And so while I don’t think it’s necessarily bad, what I do think is bad is pitting them against each other. Because that’s not fair, right? Somebody that’s outwardly beautiful can still be bookishly smart, like Hermione, for example.

Chloé: Yes.

Pam: But somebody that is super feminine… I definitely present more feminine now than I did when I was growing up, but I’m also a really big baseball fan. Somebody that wears dresses a lot – I love wearing dresses – can still know about baseball and enjoy it, not because they want to be a cool girl that’s in with the boys, but because they genuinely enjoy professional sports.

Chloé: Yes, let women be multifaceted and not just one thing. And I feel like that is one of the main issues with the way that women are written in Harry Potter. It’s like, you’re either a mother, or you’re helping a man, or you’re a pick-me girl, if I’m honest. And women are so many things and are allowed to be so many things, but I feel like each woman in this story is actually put in a category and they’re very rarely allowed to leave it, even though they are so deep in their characterization. Hermione is really smart, but she also is beautiful. There’s no denying both.

Pam: But even when they are allowed to leave – like Hermione gets to leave in Goblet of Fire at the Yule Ball – there’s consequences to that, and the consequence to that is that she has a falling out with Ron, who doesn’t know how to deal with it, and so then she reverts back after one night. I mean, we’ll never know why she does it; it probably just isn’t her vibe. But she wanted to feel beautiful and like a princess for one night, and then he had to go and ruin it because she wasn’t the Hermione that he sees Monday through Friday, every day.

Laura: And he was jealous.

Pam: And he was jealous!

Chloé: Yeah, and confused.

Meg: I think a lot of things in this doc that we’re going to find – especially about women being mean towards each other – a lot of it comes back to their relationships with men, a lot about fighting over men, men being involved… but to answer your original question, Chloé, I definitely felt a kinship with Hermione when I first read the books. I first read them when I was eight, so it was just when I was about to start the awkward years of being a preteen. And I never felt very pretty. I was never popular. I was very shy. Once puberty hit me, I had terrible acne. It was just a lot to deal with, and so reading about Hermione with crazy bushy hair and big teeth, that was comforting. It was like, “Oh, she’s not a beauty queen, but she has other traits that make her a worthwhile character.” But then Emma Watson was cast, who’s a beautiful human specimen…

Pam: I know.

Meg: But I think in the movies they did a pretty good job of… you can’t hide her beauty, but they tried.

Chloé: They tried, maybe in the first and the second, and then gave up. [laughs]

Meg: But yeah, I mean, when you’re watching Goblet, and she comes down the stairs and she’s beautiful, everyone’s like, “Oh my God.” She looks just as beautiful as she always has. This isn’t really anything super new.

Pam: Not to bring in another franchise, but it’s like in Twilight when Bella turns into a vampire. It’s like, well, Kristen Stewart was already beautiful, so how are you going to make her more beautiful? This is so funny.

Meg: It’s every makeover movie. It’s Princess Mia in Princess Diaries. It’s She’s All That. You take off the glasses…

Pam: Fix the hair, relevant to Hermione.

Meg: … and they’re beautiful. And they just needed a man to take off the glasses.

Pam: Yeah. [laughs]

Chloé: Daniel Radcliffe actually even said in an interview, like, “Emma has always been beautiful. And she looked really great, but it wasn’t a huge shift.” And also the idea, in the books and the movie, that curly hair isn’t as beautiful and needs to be tamed and needs to be changed…

Pam: Listen…

Chloé: [laughs] You can talk about it more than I can.

Pam: I can, because actually, in the pandemic, I went back to my natural hair texture. But I feel like that specifically – and Laura can probably speak to this, too – is a testament to just the late ’90s and early 2000s when we were all straightening our hair within an inch of our lives. I just gaslit myself for ten years into thinking that my hair was straight, and it’s only now in the last three years that I’ve been taking better care of it. And it’s like, “Oh yeah, that’s why that one spot in the back of my head never wanted to straighten out.” It’s because I don’t have straight hair. I have curly hair. [laughs]

Chloé: Your hair is gorgeous. And we always want what we don’t have, right? Because growing up, I was like, “Oh my God, I want curls so bad.”

Meg: Yeah, I’m sitting here like, “I always wanted that volume.”

Pam: Yeah, it’s like, curly hair is trendy now; everybody wants to have curly hair. And there’s gatekeeping of what constitutes as curly, which is so dumb. But yeah, when Hermione was born as a character, I guess curly hair was just not chic.

Chloé: Well, that was a thing in the 2000s.

Pam: Right.

Laura: Like you, Chloé, I was just thinking the same thing: You always want what you don’t have. I will say, when I was a kid reading Harry Potter, I specifically wanted curly hair because of Hermione. [laughs]

Chloé: I love that for you.

Pam: Was she your character you wanted to be like?

Laura: Yeah. And I mean, I felt, I think, a kinship to her because again, she was someone who didn’t necessarily fit in with all of her peers. And I think a lot of us more growing up, we feel that way. As a kid, I was definitely a lot more tomboyish, and I was very into school and academics at the same time. So when it came to fitting into traditionally girly female tropes, I didn’t feel like I belonged there. So I really identified with Hermione, and because of that I wanted curly hair, and I used to desperately try to curl it and damaged it by using crimpers and all kinds of stuff on it.

Pam: Oh, not the crimpers! [laughs]

Chloé: I still use a crimper every once in a while. I’m not going to lie.

Pam: The irony of me straightening my hair and then trying to use a crimper after. [laughs] Please.

Chloé: Oh, that is peak millennial behavior. [laughs]

Pam: Tiny Pam had no idea.

Laura: But to get us… oh, go ahead.

Chloé: I was just going to say, I actually felt the exact same way that you did with Hermione in terms of not fitting in growing up, but with Luna, just because I’ve never considered myself technically very book smart. But in elementary school, I had no friends, and I read alone my books on the playground, and felt very alone and very lonely. And I really grasped onto Luna because the idea that someone could have all these different interests and people think that it’s weird, that was something I experienced growing up. And I wanted so badly to be Luna. I think that hasn’t changed; I think I always aspire to be like Luna. But yeah, I mean, I think there’s so many characters, especially the female ones, where you feel almost like there’s a part of you that doesn’t fit in, so you latch onto these characters that have that same experience.

Meg: Yeah, the arrival of Luna was important in a lot of ways, because before that, before Order, if you were reading the books and you wanted to identify with a female character, it was either Hermione or Ginny. It was basically like, “Do you like books, or do you like sports?”

Chloé: Yeah, sports. [laughs]

Meg: And then Luna came along, and it was like, oh, here’s finally a new character…

Chloé: You can be weird.

Meg: You can be weird! You can be the weird girl!

[Chloé and Pam laugh]

Meg: That was very important to me, my little artistic fifth grade self. I was like, “I can be weird?”

Chloé: Exactly! The creatives, we really latched onto Luna.

Meg: The creatives, yes.

[Pam laughs]

Laura: Well, to move us along into the meat of the discussion, we have it noted here that a lot of JKR’s most unlikable characters tend to be strongly associated with overtly feminine characteristics, even if they’re not female characters, I’ll observe. Think about Lockhart, for example.

Chloé: [gasps] Oh, that’s such a good point.

Laura: So you’ve got characters like, Chloé, you brought up Rita Skeeter as an example. What were some of the others?

Chloé: Oh my lord. Rita Skeeter. Umbridge, and I think Pam has some really good points about her. Petunia as well. But yeah, it was so funny; I was joking in the Discord with Court, one of our patrons, a few months ago. And we were saying like, “If I was in JKR’s world, I would be evil. Everything about me would be evil, because of my personality, and the fact that I love pink.” And just being super girly for her, for some reason, is evil. It’s very weird.

Laura: And you’re a Slytherin.

Chloé: And I’m a Slytherin. Yeah, no, I’m, basically Umbridge, actually.

[Chloé and Laura laugh]

Chloé: Likes pink, is a Slytherin.

Meg: Alternatively, she would love me. I’m skinny, and I’m white, and I have brown hair, and I’m a Ravenclaw, and I don’t wear makeup. I would be on the page as probably a love interest to a character.

[Pam laughs]

Laura: Yeah, that’s not your entire purpose in life.

Meg: No.

[Chloé laughs]

Laura: And Meg, you had brought up… I think it’s later in the doc, but I also thought it was really relevant to this question around the way that these overtly feminine characters are portrayed in a negative light, but at the same time, some of the characteristics that are assigned to them are interesting. Would you care to tell us more?

Meg: Yeah, you notice throughout the series that the really feminine interests, the Divination and the high emotions, are really, really criticized. But in a lot of characters, it’s like if you don’t look feminine, that’s just as bad. We have Rita Skeeter being described as having mannish hands, and Millicent Bulstrode has a heavy jaw. And it’s like, acting feminine is bad, but if you don’t look feminine, that’s also bad. That also means you’re an evil character. But then with Rita Skeeter, her fake nails are pointed out, so it’s like, but you can’t try to look feminine. You have to be feminine, but don’t try to. It’s basically America Ferrera’s speech in the Barbie movie.

Chloé: Yeah, you can’t win. You can’t win. And also, if you try to be feminine, you have to be effortlessly feminine. Effortlessly, perfectly. Yeah, because if you’re Fleur, for example – who is described as the prettiest person we meet in the series, whatever – she’s so vain to everyone. Even though she’s very talented, it’s not talked about. All that’s talked about is the fact that she cares about her looks. It’s a lot. There’s no winning for the women in this series, and the women of the world, if we’re completely honest.

Pam: Yeah, I don’t think that she meant to do it. But to Meg’s point about a lot of these women that clearly put an effort into their appearance having mannish features, more masculine characteristics, that’s also such a reflection of the real world. And also, this happens a lot, too, particularly with plus size women who often are held to much higher standards and can’t just go out in effortless athleisure wear without being thought of or seen as sloppy, for example. And I think the same can be said for real-life women who maybe have more masculine energy but want to be treated like the women they are. My best friend is 6’2″ and she talks about this quite a lot, how she feels like because she’s so tall, she’s not seen as delicate, so men will not hold the door open for her…

Chloé: Whoa.

Pam: … as much as they would for someone like me, who’s 5’5″, so I don’t know. I really don’t think that JKR meant to, but in a weird sort of roundabout way, she ended up holding up a mirror to a lot of what is wrong with society and their expectations of women.

Chloé: Liza said in the Discord, “My thought now as I listen: These characters reveal the author’s self-hatred.” And it’s so true, but it’s also like… I don’t know if… JKR definitely wasn’t thinking about it, but it’s such social commentary about just how we view women in this world. And what you were saying, Pam… I had this crazy experience at LeakyCon. Obviously, I had the most amazing time meeting listeners. But because I’m super feminine and I come across a certain way, they thought I was going to be much shorter. I’m 5’9″, so I got the comment five or six times, “Oh my God, you’re so much taller than I thought you were,” which is hilarious, because it’s like, oh, we make assumptions based on people’s personalities or based on their looks, about… we put them in boxes. And that’s literally what we do reading this book and in real life, and JKR just shows us the mirror of what we do.

Pam: Yeah. And I can’t remember which one of you brought up the internalized hatred; I think that that is something that can be said for all women. And what it really boils down to is what you decide to do with that, if you decide to learn and grow from that and become a better person because of it. I think that it’s very clear from the discussion we’ve already had that all four of us are already putting in the work to disband those preconceived biases.

Chloé: We’re not immune, though.

Pam: Exactly, yeah. But we’re not immune, and a testament to that is just us talking about what it was like growing up; we all basically admitted to feeling like at one point we were not like the other girls, but character growth is realizing that you don’t have to be different or put somebody else out to stand out.

Chloé: I’m exactly like the other girls. Period. [laughs]

Pam: Yeah, I like pumpkin spice lattes. I’m exactly like the other girls.

Meg: I want to be like the other girls!

Pam: Yeah, exactly.

Chloé: Yes, I want to be like the other girls.

Laura and Pam: Yeah.

Laura: Well, and I think a really important thing to point out there is what our own perceptions were of these characters as children, because I’ll be honest, from my vantage point, like I said, I was definitely more tomboyish and also more bookish than I was into “traditional girly” things. And definitely, when I was younger and I was reading these books, I absolutely identified with the negative characterizations of the really overly feminine characters, because it was reinforcing what society was telling me already. And that just goes to show, like has already been mentioned here, none of us are immune to this kind of thing. And if we’re artists, the way that we produce art, it is a mirror that reflects who we are and our interpretation of the world and the world’s impact on us. But that’s also true in the way that we interpret art, right? So I think that’s just a really important reminder to carry through the rest of this conversation. And then anytime we’re interpreting works of art, just to remember that your interpretation brings with it to the table your own sets of strengths and opportunities to better yourself as a person.

Chloé: Well, I’m thinking about… this is something people say, but the idea that you get annoyed with other people because they’re showing the worst parts of yourself, or the parts of yourself that you don’t like. And when we’re doing literary analysis, same thing; we see the things in our life or how we act that we don’t like, and we don’t like it in another character, and that’s really important too. There’s something so attractive about being that “I’m not like other girls,” right? Because she’s cool, and she’s different, and boys like her. And I think that – and tell me if I’m being too bold – I think all of us have wanted to be that at one point in our life.

Laura: Sure.

Chloé: Or even attempted to be with boys, putting other women down around men to feel better and to feel like you got their approval. That is absolutely a thing I did. And it’s a thing that Hermione and Ginny and other characters do in these stories, and now looking back, it’s easier… but when I was reading it as a young person, I’m like, “Ooh, I can’t believe she did that,” when I was doing the same thing.

Laura: Yeah, “I would never.” And then it’s like, well, uh, probably did.

[Pam laughs]

Laura: We’re all products of the society that we grew up in. But let’s talk about… I know we’ve touched on this a little bit when we mentioned Divination, but talking about the demonization of feminine interests we see sometimes in the books, whether it comes to courses or just general interests. Also, the theme of some women not wanting to spend time around other women and forging really strong friendships there. What are y’all’s thoughts on those topics?

Chloé: Please spend time with other women. That’s my first other reaction [laughs] is please spend time with other women.

Meg: Yeah, it’s a way to better yourself, to see other women, how their different lived experiences compare and contrast to yours. And it really is such a shame that in the books we see Lavender and Parvati, who love Divination, they just get made fun of.

Chloé: It’s awful.

Meg: Especially by Hermione, who tries to show off that she’s so much better than that, so much so that she drops the class and storms out. And then when Trelawney is sacked in Order of the Phoenix and Firenze takes over, we get that scene in the Great Hall where Lavender and Parvati are talking, like, “We’re so excited for Divination. Hermione, aren’t you upset that you dropped it now?” And she says something like, “I never liked horses that much anyway.”

Laura: I know.

Chloé: Oh my God, that is the craziest scene.

Meg: She’s like, “I’m still better than you in this regard.”

Chloé: Coming from a Muggle-born who has faced discrimination, right? To knock someone… but also the fact that Firenze is immediately considered a better teacher, even because he’s… and I’d argue that part of that is because he’s a man.

Meg: Yeah, he’s not silly, fruity Professor Trelawney.

Chloé: Yeah, well, the thought that someone who is a half-breed – which is considered less than in the wizarding world – who’s a man, is considered immediately better than Trelawney, who is gifted. Yes, she’s cuckoo bananas, and we’ve talked about that at length, but she does have the sight. And it’s super interesting. I will say, something that’s super ironic is recently I watched Emma Watson’s “What’s in my bag?” Vogue video. That girl carries around tarot cards, and pulls tarot cards every single day. Emma Watson would be a Divination girly; she would be with Lavender and Parvati enjoying that class. So I think that is so crazy. And I do love that fun little fact. [laughs]

Meg: And considering Hermione, it would just have been so nice to have seen Hermione have a better relationship with these two girls that she slept in a room with every single night. They must have been talking somewhat. It would have been… and you see the Gryffindor boys all have such a strong bond. It just would have been so nice to see her Hermione have that with her own dorm mates.

Chloé: I think it’s probably both ways, though. I do want to give Hermione grace. I wonder if Lavender and Parvati left Hermione out. Or maybe there was the case where they tried to get Hermione involved. It seems like Lavender and Parvati actually knew more about what Hermione was doing in the earlier books; they know that Hermione goes to the bathroom to cry after Ron insults her, for example. I wonder if they drifted apart because Hermione becomes close to Ron and Harry, and then Lavender and Parvati stop inviting her to things. I think that’s probably a two-way street, and we see that a lot with women.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I think, too, we have to throw out the possibility that maybe the two of them were just objectively really annoying to be around. Both things can be true, right?

Chloé: Yes, yes.

Laura: There can be nothing wrong with them as characters, as people. And we don’t have to demonize their “girlishness,” but that doesn’t mean that they’re not annoying sometimes, and it’s not because they’re girly, even though I think the text might provide that interpretation. Both things can be true. I’m a fan of multiple truths.

Chloé: I know. Nuance, baby, nuance. [laughs] But I also think that… I love that Lavender – and I know that it comes across annoying, and that kind of bugs me – but I love that Lavender is allowed to be girlish and giggly and childish. Feels like very few of the children in this story are allowed to be children.

Laura: Right.

Chloé: And it feels like Lavender is annoying in a childlike way, which is so valid when you’re 11, 12, 13. I was so annoying. I would not want to spend time with me now as a 13-year-old, and that’s just the truth.

Laura: Well, just to wrap up this part of the discussion, I just want to pose this final question. Chloé, I think you included this in the doc because I know pink is your favorite color. Why does J.K. Rowling hate pink so much? I think this is an interesting question, because all of the representations of pink in this series are pretty negative, to be honest. [laughs]

Chloé: There’s one that isn’t.

Laura: Yeah, but it’s funny because she went on Twitter and said that pink is her favorite color. So I’m confused.

[Laura and Pam laugh]

Meg: Pink is just so feminine, and she needs to… well, and I think especially in the case of Umbridge, it’s the contrast of pink is such a soft, feminine color, and Umbridge is this very brash, evil character. It’s like, going into her room and seeing all the kittens on the plates. Kittens are nice; they’re fluffy. Umbridge is not nice; nor is she fluffy. But yeah, pink really gets demonized in the series, and it’s so funny because the costume designer from the movies, Jany Temime, said an interview once that she kind of assigned colors to the members of the trio, and she gave Emma Watson pink. And Hermione wears pink in a lot of the movies. They even changed the Yule Ball gown to be pink instead of blue.

Chloé: Which looked better on her because of her coloring, which is the reason.

Meg: Yeah, pink suits her.

Chloé: But it’s true; we do associate Emma with pink. But all the book instances of pink, the only other character that wears pink as much as Umbridge – or is mentioned – is Petunia, I’m pretty sure, and we’re not meant to like her.

Pam: Right. And this is something that I wanted to bring up, too, because I think a lot of times, beauty and effort into appearance are… from early on in the series, they’re used to hide something that’s more sinister, to Meg’s point with Umbridge. She has all these frills and pink, and she’s deeply evil underneath. With Rita, she has the really long crimson nails and her hair is done just right, but she’s a little sneak. And Petunia outwardly presents as feminine, the perfect 1950s housewife, if you will, but she’s awful to her nephew. And so I think that what this does, especially for young readers, is that it predisposes us to be wary of anybody that outwardly presents feminine, or is going to be putting more effort into their appearance, because now we have all of these examples of women that have done so and turned out to be not great. So we’re looking at other people like, say Fleur, for example. It’s like, “What is she hiding? She’s so beautiful. What is she hiding?”

Chloé: Hates blondes, hates pinks. It’s okay, I get it. [laughs]

Laura: But I mean, actually, it’s funny because there is that perception of Fleur and we see that throughout the books, but she’s literally the best student at Beauxbatons and that’s why she’s chosen as their champion. So it’s another great example that you can be multiple things. You can be multifaceted.

Chloé: People hate Fleur online, hate her for some reason, and they forget that she’s a total badass.

Pam: I do think so. But it’s tough because a lot of what we see of her is also characters that are observing her being a little snooty, like being loud about everything she hates about Hogwarts. If I loved my school that much, I might be a little pissed off about anybody – not just her – being like, “This place is a dump.” [laughs] That kind of stuff.

Chloé: It’s true. She’s not perfect; she has her moments for sure.

Pam: No, I don’t think she’s trying. I feel like it goes both ways. To Laura’s point, there can be multiple truths. With the Weasleys, definitely you can tell that she butts heads with a lot of them. I would never excuse Molly, Ginny, anyone else for being like, “We don’t like Fleur because she’s just too pretty,” or like, “She must be dumb, because she’s so beautiful.”

Chloé: But that’s kind of how it comes across, though.

Pam: It does. But then also, either in retaliation or for whatever reason, we also see her… she’s complaining about Celestina Warbeck playing during Christmas and stuff, and so I feel like they both go at each other’s throats but for different reasons, and neither one is right. And it sucks that we don’t see them really come together and put aside their differences to forge a better relationship.

Meg: Another thing I was thinking of recently is in the beginning of Half-Blood Prince when Tonks is depressed, Fleur has a moment where she says, “That Tonks has really let herself go. Really disappointing to see,” which is Fleur judging another woman’s femininity. Tonks’s femininity isn’t about the long beautiful blonde hair. Sometimes it’s bright pink. Other times it’s mousy brown, because she’s in her feelings. She’s feeling sad.

Pam: And I’m sure it’s a byproduct of her circumstance, too, because, we know her grandmother was a Veela. Veelas are the most beautiful women unless they’re angry, and then they turn into really scary creatures, but I’m sure that especially… and I’m sure we’ve all heard this too online, that women that are only prized for their beauty also have a lot of internalized hatred, or feel like that’s all that they can offer to the world. So we don’t know how much of the way she behaves is a byproduct of her circumstance, or what her home life was like, or what her family decided she was going to give to the world.

Chloé: That hits so hard, Pam. That hits so hard. As someone who grew up with a plastic surgeon as a father, and my mom, who was a fashion designer and then a skincare person, looks were everything growing up. And I was a child model, and I’ve been told my whole life, “Oh, Chloé, you’re so pretty.” And I was never told, “Oh, Chloé, you’re so creative. Oh, Chloé, you’re so smart. Oh, Chloé, you’re going to go so far.” It was always like, “Oh my gosh, Chloé, you’re so pretty.” And it really, really screwed me up because I just saw so much value in looks and very little value in other things, and I had to deprogram myself. And there are still moments where I immediately go to someone’s looks, or my own looks, and I don’t value other things about me, and it is really, really hard. And I think that Fleur is probably absolutely coming from that place. And also, there’s a part of it that is inherent to being a Veela, and Fleur is not completely human, and I think that does factor into some of the interactions – actually, all of the interactions – that she has with other women in the series, because men inherently like Fleur because biologically, she is a Veela, which threatens other women. And the other women see that she’s vain, and she is vain, because she’s a Veela. There’s a lot of layers when it comes to her. But it’s true that if you are thought of as just a pretty girl your whole life, it’s really hard to see yourself as more, and then when your looks go or when you gain weight or when you feel not as attractive, you’re like, “Oh, I’m worthless.” So I think there’s a part of that too.

Meg: I want to point out in the Discord, Legalize Gillyweed said, “Poor Fleur was probably sexualized from a young age because of her heritage too.”

Chloé: Oh, for sure.

Meg: I think that’s a very serious good point, that she had to grow up with that discomfort of knowing you are a beautiful thing, and men are going to want to look at you. And then take her to Hogwarts, and she walks in and all the boys are looking at her and she’s just used to that, and she’s probably used to other women seeing that and hating her for that reason.

Chloé: I wonder if she gives up even trying to charm women, to Pam’s point.

Meg: Yeah, maybe she just has given up. She’s like, “It’s not worth it. It’s never going to work out.”

Laura: All right, well, we’re going to take a quick break to go back and reevaluate what all of our favorite colors are. I know at least one member of this panel prefers pink, but the rest of us will confer and we’ll be back in just a moment.


[Ad break]



Main Discussion: Female relationships in Harry Potter


Laura: All right, y’all, now we’re going to get into part two of our discussion, which pertains to how women treat other women in the wizarding world. Chloé, you have some points about Luna and Ginny. You want to inform us?

Chloé: Yeah, this is a positive relationship for me, and I really wish that we saw more of them. We obviously can read in between the lines. But Luna and Ginny are in the same year; they probably had classes together, maybe Double Potions, Double DADA. But Luna comes and is introduced to the trio as weird. And I think, actually, Neville is the one that says like, “Oh, I didn’t want to be alone in a carriage with Luna,” and Ginny stands up for her, and I really love that. And Ginny continuously stands up for her throughout the series. Like when Harry takes Luna to Slughorn’s Christmas party, for example, Ginny is like, “That is so great; I’m so glad you’re doing that. She’s so excited.” There’s clearly a relationship between the two women that is positive, and I love that Ginny is willing to stand up for Luna, who’s not as popular, who people think is weird. And Ginny is the most popular girl in school. I really love that, and it is the perfect example. And I think Ginny actually might be the most girls’ girl, except when it comes to Fleur, of the series. She really is supporting Luna here and putting her neck out for a character that other people don’t necessarily understand, and I think that’s awesome.

Meg: And Ginny, who has feelings for Harry, has no jealousy there. She’s like, “Harry is doing a good, kind thing by inviting Luna to this party, and Luna is going to have a great time, and I think that’s wonderful.”

Laura: Yeah, and I think, too, some of this could relate to the fact that Ginny in her own right feels like – and forgive the idiom usage here – but she feels like the odd man out because she’s one sister with a bunch of brothers, so she can identify with the feeling of maybe not belonging in her family. And she’s the only one in her family who’s had a very particular experience of being possessed by Voldemort.

Pam: I was going to say that she did not have a good first year, and I think that that’s probably why she’s so kind to people that are different. I mean, she didn’t make any friends, and that’s why she turned to a diary and then got possessed.

Laura: Well, we’ll pivot a little bit here, still thinking about Ginny, but Meg, I’m wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about Ginny and Hermione.

Meg: Yeah, we see Ginny and Hermione getting along very well. And something about both of them is they’re both really not girly girls. And I would have liked to see more Hermione Ginny interactions throughout the books, find out what they have in common other than just being the main female characters alongside with Harry and Ron. But they get along so well, and the only time they really… well, they disagree on some occasions, like when Ginny says, “Be nice to Luna.” But it’s always very, like, “Hey, knock it off. Luna is cool.” The one time that there’s a heated disagreement is in Half-Blood Prince when they’re talking about Harry having just cast Sectumsempra on Malfoy, and Hermione starts nagging Harry for the Prince’s book, for using that, and Ginny snaps and is like, “Give it a rest.” And Hermione tries to even placate Ginny by being like, “Well, I thought that… he’s off the Quidditch team now; I thought maybe that would upset you.” And she says, “Oh, don’t pretend that you understand Quidditch, you’re only going to embarrass yourself.” And it’s the most heated confrontation we get between Hermione and Ginny, and it’s over a sport, which is a very typically masculine thing, but then at its heart, it’s over Harry. They’re disagreeing over treatment of Harry; Hermione is saying, “Harry brought this on himself.”

Chloé: It’s so real between two best friends to have a disagreement like this and snap at each other. And I’d argue that we have enough evidence that Hermione and Ginny are best friends. Hermione knows about Ginny’s crush on Harry way before anyone else, and it’s clear they’ve had in-depth conversations about it. And also, Hermione has given Ginny advice on how to move on. And we don’t see any of those conversations because we’re reading the book, obviously, from Harry’s point of view, but it’s very clear that Ginny and Hermione have a strong relationship and they talk often about things that the boys probably don’t understand. I’m assuming that everything that Hermione can’t tell the boys, she probably tells Ginny, and I kind of liked that they have a snap at each other because with my best friends, we’ve certainly had moments where I’m like, “Dude, what? Cut it out.” And that’s real. That’s sisterhood.

Meg: It is. I just wish the snap had been over, like, “Stop being such an asshole to Luna! God!”

[Chloé and Pam laugh]

Chloé: I wonder, though… they probably did have those conversations. It’s just we’re seeing it from Harry’s point of view, so of course they’re going to fight about Harry.

Pam: Yeah, Harry’s ears are going to burn if he knows they’re talking about him.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But yeah, I mean, that’s the limitation of the story being told from a Harry’s point of view is that, as a reader, it could be very easy to walk away with the impression that Hermione and Ginny really aren’t super close, because we really only start to see a core four as opposed to a trio around the time when Ginny is brought to the forefront because she’s being set up to be Harry’s love interest.

Meg: Another great instance of Ginny and Hermione’s friendship, I think, is in Order of the Phoenix when she tries out for Quidditch, and Fred or George is like, “I didn’t know she played Quidditch,” and Hermione is like, “She’s been stealing your broomsticks out of the cupboard since she was eight.”

Chloé: Yes, that’s such a good point.

Meg: It’s like Hermione knows that about her more than any of her brothers do.

Chloé: We have to read the subtext and the context clues when it comes to forming the female relationships and female friendships in Harry Potter, because we get tiny little snippets.

Pam: It is interesting, though, because out of everybody that should be more gatekeepy – because we’ve talked a little bit about how some women gatekeep their relationship with the men in their lives because it makes them feel better – if anybody should gatekeep, it should be Ginny because she’s had her brothers’ attention her whole life. But the fact that we never see her be wary of Hermione or be… not defensive, but she’s never threatened by Hermione, and I think that that speaks volumes to her security as a character. And I think that that’s really cool.

Laura: Y’all are actually making me appreciate Ginny’s character a lot more through this conversation. I’m usually not a huge fan, not because there’s anything wrong with her.

Chloé: Really!

Laura: Yeah, mainly because I’ve always felt like her character in the books was honestly underdeveloped.

Pam: Yeah.

Chloé: That’s true.

Laura: Yeah, but I think if you read the subtext, though, you learn a lot more about her. At the very least, we can fill in some headcanon, right? [laughs]

Chloé: Right, yeah. That’s what you have to do when you’re talking about the women if it’s not Hermione, if I’m honest.

Pam: Yeah, that’s true. And she has some good moments, like her standing up to Harry when he’s just being a total jerk, and being like, “You should have just asked me what it was like to be possessed instead of going crazy, because I have been.”

Chloé: She’s fierce.

Pam: Yeah, she has no fear. And that’s one of the things that does come up time and time again, in tiny little pockets of Ginny throughout the series. [laughs]

Chloé: It’s also the reason that it’s so infuriating how she was portrayed in the movies.

Pam: Right.

Chloé: Because she is such a solid match to Harry sass, and it’s so good. And I always read Ginny and was like, “Oh my God, I want to be that sassy.” I kind of aspired to be as sassy and have as good comebacks as she did, because probably Fred and George taught her a little bit of that.

Pam: Oh, 100%.

Chloé: The subtext is the best part.

Laura: Well, what about Molly and Tonks for another example of a positive relationship between women in the series?

Meg: It’s interesting because the majority of their relationship we see is in Half-Blood Prince, when Remus has told Tonks that he doesn’t want to continue their relationship, and Molly kind of takes on a motherly role. And part of it, you can’t help but wonder, is it because Molly is hoping that Bill will choose Tonks instead of Fleur?

Chloé and Pam: Ooh.

Meg: She has a few lines where she’s like, “You could be with Tonks instead,” and Bill is like, “I don’t want that, Mom.” And you wonder if it’s Molly being like, “Well, Tonks’s femininity is something that I agree with more.” But it is nice to see that Tonks in her depressed state feels comfortable going to the Burrow and sitting at the table and having tea and soup with Molly. And it makes me upset that we didn’t see more of Andromeda in the series…

Pam: That would have been really fun, yeah.

Chloé: Preach.

Meg: … see more of Tonks talking to her own mother about this, especially when we learn so much of Andromeda’s sisters, Narcissa and Bellatrix, and they are both just not nice characters. And it would have been so nice to see Andromeda, how she would compare to her two sisters.

Pam: Yeah, and not that we need more from Harry’s perspective – and I know we’re talking about women, so I’ll just make this point really quick – it just would have been really nice to see Andromeda and Harry talk to each other because she was so close to Sirius, and he lost Sirius so early. And I’m shocked that that never happened, that he never met her.

Meg: And Harry becomes godfather to her grandson.

Pam: Right.

Chloé: Andromeda would have been the best female representation if she was more included, if I’m honest. It feels like she is actually… and again, we get tiny little snippets. But she’s a Slytherin, first of all, and she’s good, and she married a Muggle-born, and she chose love, and she leads with her heart first, and she’s a strong witch. It is really sad we don’t get to see Andromeda. And I think that that’s something that would have added so much to just the world of femininity in Harry Potter.

Laura: Agreed.

Meg: She would have been too powerful.

[Laura laughs]

Pam: Everyone’s favorite character, we couldn’t have that.

[Chloé and Meg laugh]

Laura: Well, what about some of the negative portrayals of relationships? We touched a lot on Fleur lately – I will never sound as sophisticated saying that as Chloé does – but why don’t we start there? Because I do see a lot of Fleur v. insert character here in this list.

[Chloé and Pam laugh]

Chloé: I mean, we don’t have to do all of them. I just have to stand for my girl.

Laura: No, no, but I think in general we can talk about Fleur and think about the themes that we see between her and Hermione, her and Molly, her and Ginny, right? And what we’re seeing there.

Chloé: I put in the doc, I said, “Fleur is my pièce de résistance,” because she is arguably the most… she is the most feminine character in Harry Potter, and I’d argue that she’s treated the worst by other women that we see. Everyone attacks her, essentially. And yes, she’s not perfect. We know this; she’s not. But because she is so pretty, she is immediately villainized because men are attracted to her. And it’s men that these women believe that they own, like Molly, for example, with Bill, her first son, her baby, her everything. The first man to marry off picked Fleur, who’s French, who’s a Veela, who’s pretty, who’s vain… and she would prefer someone else. She doesn’t want to give him up to Fleur. And until Fleur proves herself after Bill is bitten by a werewolf, she finally comes around, but she’s ostracized by the entire family. She’s ostracized by Hermione; from the minute Fleur walks in the door, Hermione doesn’t like her because Ron and Harry’s attention is immediately captivated by Fleur. And she makes so many offhanded comments, but Hermione did the same thing with Lockhart. What is that about? They call her “Phlegm,” which I think is a reference to the fact that French people have something in the back of their throat. Is it? I don’t know.

[Meg and Pam laugh]

Laura: I know, I was going to say with Fleur, it’s not just about the internalized misogyny. It’s also xenophobia.

Pam: Right. Aren’t the British kind of prejudiced against French people too?

Meg: Yeah, the British and the French are…

Chloé: They don’t like each other.

Pam: There’s some true colors showing.

Chloé: And it’s also maybe a little racist, I’d argue, because of Fleur’s blood status. She’s not completely human. And there’s a lot of instances where Hermione and even Molly and the Weasleys have shown that they do have some wizarding prejudice when it comes to people that aren’t completely human.

Laura: Yeah, and they don’t so much have the issue when it comes to half-bloods or Muggle-borns, right? But we definitely saw it at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban with the way Ron reacted to Lupin, for example. Yeah.

Chloé: And Hagrid, too, finding out about Hagrid.

Laura: And also the way they react to conversations around house-elf liberation.

Chloé: Yeah, like, “Slavery is normal. We’ve all accepted it.”

Laura: Yeah, “Get over it. That’s just a thing we do here.”

Meg: “They like it!”

[Pam laughs]

Chloé: “They like it,” literally.

Laura: Ugh. Gross. Well, we just talked a little bit about the Weasleys, and we centered on Molly. I was wondering if we could talk about Molly and Hermione quickly, because that’s a big theme in Goblet of Fire.

Chloé: It reminds me of the 40-year-old women that talk shit about teenagers and about what they’re doing. Molly judges Hermione because of a Rita Skeeter gossip article about the fact that she broke Harry’s heart and purposely gives her, what, less… she doesn’t knit her a Weasley jumper that year.

Meg: She gets a smaller Easter egg at Easter.

Chloé: She gets the smaller Easter – it’s so petty. It’s so petty.

Laura: I know.

Meg: It would almost be better if she didn’t send her anything.

Chloé: Yeah, it’s so petty. [laughs] And I’m like, “Hermione is 14. Molly, you are 40. Please. Act like it.”

Meg: I think there can be some grace there because we know how strongly Molly feels as a motherly character towards Harry. And she’s seeing what he’s going through, especially in Goblet. And for him to have to be doing these terrible, scary tasks, and then for someone to be breaking his heart at the same time? It’s just too much for her to handle.

Chloé: It’s true.

Meg: But she really does not approach it maturely. She doesn’t even ask Harry about it; she just makes up her mind.

Chloé: She should have asked Harry or Hermione. Also, you hope that she feels maybe not as strongly towards Hermione, but at least a little bit. She’s known Hermione the same amount of time. Hermione has spent time with her at her house.

Pam: I think it’s that… I get what you’re saying. Yes, she should. But I do think that the relationship is different because she knows that Harry doesn’t have a mother, and we get that beautiful moment in Order of the Phoenix where she says, “He’s as good as mine.” That’s what she basically says. And so we know that she feels a sense of responsibility to be a mother figure for him, because he doesn’t have that and he doesn’t go home to a great life. But I do feel like this is the most frivolous Molly is in the entire series, getting hung up on gossip. It’s kind of like… do you guys remember going…?

Chloé: She’s wonderful.

Pam: I was just going to say, it’s like when you used to go grocery shopping with your parents in the ’90s and it was all tabloids by the register. I don’t think it’s as much that anymore, but I know my mom used to read the headlines and be like, “Ooh, that’s interesting.” [laughs]

Chloé: Oh, my mom loved People. My mom loved… she still does.

Pam: People is reputable, so your mom’s got taste. [laughs]

Chloé: She does, she does. But Molly is a really, really wonderful mother, and I do want to note that. She is a dream, absolutely. But I do love, and I think… Debbie in the Discord said, “Molly is an authentic portrayal of a mother.” Yes, she is authentic. I think that she’s better than a lot of mothers; I’m just going to put that out there.

Pam: The Weasleys are obviously a white family, but a lot of the way that Molly and Arthur operate reminds me a lot of my grandparents. Even if they didn’t have much, they would figure out a way to feed everybody. They would always take in strays. They were everyone else’s grandparents and stuff, and I just feel like that is so Arthur and Molly. It doesn’t matter that they don’t have a lot; they’ll figure out how to make sure everyone has a place to sleep, make sure everybody has a warm meal, make sure everybody has something to open up during Christmas. And I just think that that is so beautiful to think about, all of that.

Chloé: She still sent Hermione a gift. I wonder…

Pam: Yeah, all that she does that we don’t see.

Chloé: Maybe it wasn’t petty.

Pam: I think it was a little petty. [laughs]

Laura: It’s a little petty because…

Chloé: What if it’s both, though?

Laura: … isn’t she also noted in the book as being cold towards Hermione when she sees her? It’s a thing.

Pam: She is, yeah, and then Harry is like, “Oh, Mrs. Weasley, you didn’t actually believe all that?” and she gets all flustered because she did.

Laura: Yeah. Well, this just goes to show they don’t teach media literacy at Hogwarts, which is a problem. But I mean, that’s also a real world problem, so we’ll let them have that.

Pam: That’s true. They only have the Daily Prophet and the Quibbler. Like, what do we expect?

[Meg and Pam laugh]

Chloé: Right, and neither are…

Pam: Reputable? [laughs]

Chloé: Both often do fake news.

Meg: Witch Weekly, the Most Charming Smile Award.

Pam: Oh yeah, Witch Weekly. Yeah, that’s true.

Laura: Well, were there any other points in the negative relationships column y’all wanted to touch on?

Chloé: I think Hermione versus Lavender. We didn’t talk about the way that Hermione treats women, and it’s a little… it’s pretty rough. She just views her as less than because she has different interests, and she’s giggly, and obviously, I think Ron comes into play later. But Hermione has a mean streak, and it’s usually with other women, like the way that she treats… God, what’s Cho’s friend’s name? Marietta Edgecombe. That is too far. She puts Rita Skeeter in a jar; very much Rita Skeeter could have died and would have died if she tried to transform. Hermione doesn’t treat Luna super well. There’s a lot of moments where you’re like, “Whoa, chill, dude.”

Laura: So here’s the thing: Hermione really has no chill. She’s got a very strong sense of justice about her, and 50% of the time I love it. I think the Rita Skeeter plot and the way that that plays out, I think, is really hilarious because honestly, Rita Skeeter is a grown woman who is literally harassing teenagers for a gossip rag.

Chloé: [laughs] She had it coming.

Laura: She definitely had that coming. And also, when it…

Chloé: But she’s cuckoo bananas sometimes. Hermione takes it far.

Laura: Oh, I know. She’s like, “Here, you want to join my club? Sign this piece of paper…”

Chloé: “And I’ll permanently disfigure your face.” Like, whoa.

Pam: That’s why she’s a Gryffindor.

Chloé: Yeah, but the other girl is 15. Oh my God.

Pam: No, I agree. I’m just saying that there are bad traits for every House, and this is Hermione personifying bad traits of Gryffindor. And I can say that, as a Gryffindor.

Meg: Extreme Gryffindorism.

Chloé: But the way she treats Luna and Lavender…

Laura: Yeah, it’s the rashness of it, right?

Pam: Yeah. She’s literally not thinking logically in those moments, because all she’s seeing is red. And I relate. That’s not a great quality to have, but…

Chloé: But it’s a damn Gryffindor quality.

Pam: It is.

Chloé: I think those examples are… obviously, she’s pursuing justice, and that’s what matters to her, so we’re able to think about it and make excuses. I think the way she treats Lavender and Luna is just really insensitive and mean, and I think there’s very little excuse for the way that she treats them.

Meg: With Lavender, there’s also the huge aspect that she loves Ron, and Lavender got there first. And she should be angry at Ron for that, but she makes all these comments about Lavender.

Chloé: But even before, though, in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Meg: Even before. She’s always been very, very against her, but especially with… and when I first read Half-Blood Prince, I didn’t like Lavender, because I loved Ron and Hermione together. I was like, “Lavender is terrible,” because I was 12.

[Chloé laughs]

Meg: And then rereading it, though, Lavender is a true Gryffindor. Lavender went up to Ron and was like, “I’m into you; let’s kiss.”

Chloé: Oh, yeah. No, Lavender is ballsy, and I love it.

Meg: Yeah, that’s her showing her Gryffindorism.

Laura: She also didn’t deserve the way that she was treated the way that Ron ended things with her. Also, she’s just in love and 16. I acted the same way.

Meg: She was just a teenager with a crush on a guy.

Pam: I thought you were going to say she also didn’t deserve the way she maybe died. [laughs]

Chloé: Oh, well, that too, Pam. That’s a given.

Meg: I am a Lavender is alive truther.

Chloé: Me too!

Pam: I hope she is.

Meg: Maybe she’s like Bill and she likes her steaks a little more rare now, but no, she’s fine.

Pam: Right.

Laura: I like that it’s open-ended.

Chloé: Me too. And listen, I would have probably been besties with Lavender and Parvati. Let’s be honest, I would be the giggly girl with them. And I’m all in.

Laura: That would be your trio.

Chloé: That would be my trio, yeah. And I’m all in.

Laura: As we come to an end of this discussion here, there’s a really great point that we have in the doc about internalized misogyny. We’ve talked about throughout the show how the author’s views socially come through in the work. I think our own views – and every other reader, their views – come through in our interpretations of the work. What does it say when we take this particular interpretation of the way women are portrayed in Harry Potter and overlay that with some of the social commentary that has come from prominent people like the author for example?

Meg: It’s an example of pretending to be a feminist, but not acknowledging intersectional feminism at all…

Chloé: [snaps fingers] Snaps.

Meg: … which is needed for feminism to be real feminism.

Laura: Agreed.

Chloé: It is very ’90s feminism, and that’s the truth. New wave feminism, and what I’ve subscribed to, is that you can be a woman in any which way you want, and that is awesome, and I support you.

Pam: Yeah, there’s space for everyone.

Chloé: Yes.

Pam: That’s what, really, feminism should be.

Chloé: Be a tomboy. Be a girly girl. I don’t care.

Pam: There’s space for trans women. There’s space for nonbinary people. There’s space for BIPOC women. There’s space for cis-het woman. There’s space for queer women. And I think that J.K. Rowling might not share those particular views, but the important thing is that we walk away from this discussion keeping that in mind, so that we’re better people outside of this episode.

Chloé: Yes. You can be a woman any way you want, and I will support you and love you for it. As long as you do the same for me, right?

Meg: Yeah, we mentioned earlier in the episode the description of women as having masculine features and how that makes them not real women, not good women, and it’s just so in tune with the comments today of looking at a trans woman, saying, “Oh, we can always tell.” By saying things like that, you’re not only being a horrible person to trans women, but also just cis women who just happen to have more masculine features.

Chloé: Or intersex.

Meg: And it’s the opposite of being a girls’ girl.

Pam: Yeah, not a girls’ girl.

Chloé: Well, to your point, Meg, a listener wrote in to our Patreon about Rita Skeeter being trans-coded. And it’s something that’s talked about online often, but because of the nails and the makeup and being super done up all the time, and also having more masculine features while being done up, people have said that Rita Skeeter… and obviously, she’s not the nicest character; we’re not meant to like Rita Skeeter. People have said that JKR even maybe unintentionally wrote her views regarding trans women into that character, and I think it’s a valid point. I’m not trans, so I don’t think I can really flesh that out. But it’s interesting reading back and knowing what we now know about JKR’s views and seeing the internalized misogyny and the way that she writes women that she doesn’t like tending to be either overtly feminine with masculine qualities… it feels like she was telling us before she actually exposed herself.

Pam: Yeah. We didn’t talk about her, but I would say Madame Maxime falls into that line of thinking as well.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Pam: Because obviously, we do learn that she’s half-giant too, right? Yeah, like Hagrid. But she is also, because she’s tall, given more masculine features. But then, also is an example of a woman who is dressed extremely elegantly, and more done up than the cool girls or the girls that are not like the other girls and stuff. So again, it’s an example of writing where the beautification on the outside is hiding something on the inside.

Chloé: Madame Maxime is so fabulous, by the way. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, she is, but she is still described as a handsome woman.

Chloé: True.

Pam: Yes, and because probably, she’s tall. Again, all of these things that people deem as more masculine qualities.

Laura: It’s really interesting the ways that society informs the way that we talk about these things, because I’m sure if you went back over all of our years of podcasting history, you could probably find some coded language that we didn’t even realize we were using, right? And that’s just the reality of the evolution of being a person. So none of this is to say that it would be possible or even that Harry Potter should have been written in a different way. I think that it is…

Chloé: I love that it’s flawed.

Laura: Yeah, and it should be, because people are flawed, right? We are all flawed. And just like we hear a whole lot out of Order of the Phoenix, the world is not separated into good people and Death Eaters. There is light and dark in each and every one of us.

Chloé: And masculine and feminine traits in each and every one of us, and that is awesome and okay.

Laura: I think that puts a nice bow on things. We are going to step away for just a moment, but we’re going to be back with a fun speed round of segments to wrap up the show today.


[Ad break]



Fun segments


Laura: All right, time to get into our speed round of fun questions and answers. Chloé, do you want to kick this off? Because I think these were all your questions.

Chloé: Yes, I just wanted us to have a little fun at the end; obviously, we’ve been so deep this whole time. What chapter in the entire series would you want to see from a woman’s perspective? Obviously, we see it all through Harry. What perspective do you want to see?

Meg: Mine is one we definitely talked about during this episode. We talked about Ginny not being as fleshed out as she could have been in the series, and we talked about the chapter where she says to Harry, “I can’t believe you forgot that I was possessed by Voldemort.”

Chloé: [laughs] Love.

Meg: So I would love to see “Christmas on the Closed Ward” from Ginny’s perspective…

Chloé and Pam: Ooh.

Meg: … because I’d also want to see her dealing with her dad has been attacked by a snake, going through that. We see Harry devastated by it, but to see one of his children devastated by it also. And then I’d love to see her talking with Ron and Hermione, being like, “Why is Harry acting like an ass?” and them being like, “I don’t know, maybe you should talk to him.” And then that moment happening of him saying, “I forgot.”

Chloé: So good.

Meg: That’s what I would say.

Pam: Yeah, to piggyback off of Meg’s, I would love to see probably any chapter in Chamber of Secrets from Ginny’s point of view, because there’s so much of that story that gets glossed over. But also Hermione’s perspective from Chamber of Secrets of figuring everything out, up until the point that she gets Petrified would be fascinating.

Meg: That would be great.

Laura: I was going to say, you don’t want the perspective of her actually being Petrified in the hospital wing for three months.

[Laura and Pam laugh]

Pam: That would be boring. No, but it could fade to black as soon as she peers over the corner and sees the Basilisk.

Laura: For sure. No, I’m just teasing. I’m just teasing.

Pam: Yeah, imagine if she heard every single thing that was happening around her while she was Petrified. [laughs]

Laura: Oh my God, can you imagine Harry and Ron standing by her hospital bed trying to figure it out…

Pam: Yeah, she’d be screaming.

Laura: … and she’s laying there being like, “She answer is literally in my hand.”

Meg: She’s like, “I have it right here.”

Pam: She’s just like, “I’ll stay Petrified because you’ve both killed me.”

[Meg and Pam laugh]

Chloé: Hermione literally saved those boys so many times in the hospital bed frozen. Insane.

Meg: She saves the day even when she can’t even move or talk.

Chloé: Or talk, yes! I think you guys both had such beautiful, deep, meaningful answers. I want to see the Yule Ball from a girl’s perspective. [laughs]

Pam: Fun!

Chloé: Exactly. Any girl’s perspective, maybe Ginny or Hermione, just because I’m assuming they’re getting ready together, and there is nothing better than getting ready with your girls before a night out. I think it’s the best part of the night, usually. And I want them to talk about Viktor Krum and Ginny going with Neville, and talking about that Harry asked Ginny, and all of those… I just want that girliness. And I guess I can get it in another book, but I desperately want to see it from Ginny or Hermione’s perspective. And also, her blowup with Ron, and how she puts it together that Ron is starting to like her and that there’s an undercurrent there now that she didn’t notice before. And also the inner dialogue of her finally feeling really beautiful; that, I would love to read.

Laura: I agree with that. There’s also that great line where Hermione leaves to go get ready for the ball, like, three hours early.

Chloé: Yes. [laughs]

Laura: And Ron shouts after her, “You need three hours?” I remember reading that and being like, “Duh.”

Meg: Yeah, sometimes you do!

Chloé: Yeah, the shower, the hair… you know she has a Spotify playlist in the background that’s like, bad bitch energy. She’s using her Sleekeazy potion, and she had an everything shower. Boys don’t get it.

Laura: Yeah, it’s a ritual. It’s just a ritual.

Chloé: Exactly. And it’s fun. It’s so fun.

Meg: It’s self-care.

Chloé: Yes.

Pam: It is self-care.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, we’ve all, I think, at some point done something like this. I specifically remember being at Harry Potter conventions back in the day, and the big event was the Yule Ball, and I absolutely took three hours to get ready for that. [laughs]

Pam: But also, depending on who you were sharing a room with… because we were all young and bunking up as much as we could to save money. It was like, you have to go back to the hotel halfway through the day because everyone needs to shower first, and everyone has to do their hair, and everyone has to use the same mirror and the same blow dryer. It was an experience.

Laura: Okay, well, these were supposed to be a speed round. [laughs]

Chloé: Oh, shoot.

Laura: It’s okay.

Chloé: Which witch? Which witch do you think you’re most like in the series?

Laura: I was going to say, in some ways Hermione, but I like to think that I’ve got some Tonks going on.

Chloé: Oh, for sure.

Laura: Not just because of the hair.

Chloé: No, you’re badass like her.

Meg: It’s hard to choose, but I think… I would like to say Luna because there are a few strong Luna-isms that I have. Over the summer I like to dye my armpit hair blue; I think that’s something Luna would maybe do for fun.

Chloé: Love.

[Laura laughs]

Pam: That’s incredible.

Meg: I love the… it’s great. It’s fun.

Chloé: You match Laura’s hair!

Meg: I do! Oh my God!

Laura: Twinning!

Meg: Hair matching!

Chloé: That’s a social post.

[Pam laughs]

Meg: And then I also love the more strange, unloved creatures. You guys were so harsh on the tailless whip scorpion in the Goblet of Fire movie commentary.

Pam: Aww.

Meg: Someone called it gross. I think Micah called it gross. I was like, “I’m not here for that.”

[Everyone laughs]

Meg: They’re nonvenomous! They’re not going to hurt you! They just want to hide. They didn’t deserve to be abused like that by Moody.

Pam: My answer would be Hermione, but only a little bit. I don’t really resonate a lot with the women of Harry Potter. But I also think part of that is because I’m a woman of color, so it’s hard to see myself in these stories. I just have to cherry pick qualities from different characters to find myself.

Chloé: I’m Fleur, we all know it. Good and bad parts of her. And I’m willing to admit that.

Laura: Next one.

Chloé: Who’s invited to the sleepover? You can only pick three witches. So who do you want to have a slumber party with?

Laura: Do they have to be witches?

Chloé: They can be nonbinary magical people. [laughs]

Laura: Okay.

Chloé: I was thinking of just the girls theme. But if you want to invite boys to this slumber party, fine.

Laura: No, it’s not that, it’s not that. I was thinking about…

Pam: Laura is like, “I want to invite Crookshanks.”

[Chloé and Pam laugh]

Meg: Hedwig.

Laura: I was thinking about Winky! I feel like she never gets included.

Pam: Oh, Winky!

Chloé: Aww. Female magical beings, yes.

Laura: Yeah.

Chloé: Winky. That’s so cute, Laura. God, you’re so good.

Laura: Oh, thank you. I just feel like she needs a hug.

Pam: She does.

Chloé: She so needs a hug. I also need a hug.

Pam: She needs a girls’ night. Dobby is not cutting it. [laughs]

Chloé: No, no. I feel like Hermione would invite Winky low-key to a girls’ night, though.

Laura: Yeah, I think she would for sure.

Chloé: Dr. Lim said, “Dude, Winky would be a party animal.” True. She does love herself a drink. [laughs]

Meg: She loves that butterbeer.

Laura: Yeah. Well, that’s the other reason I thought of her, too, is I feel like we’d have a good time. But I also feel like she needs the emotional catharsis of being included, so she gets to come.

Chloé: I’m inviting Tonks, Laura, because I have a big fat crush on Tonks, and I also have a big fat crush on Laura.

[Pam laughs]

Chloé: Because I just love Tonks so much. And then also Luna and then also Fleur, because duh. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, Luna has got to be there for sure.

Meg: She’s going to bring the Gurdyroot.

Pam: She’s also going to do the tarot card readings, 100%. She’s going to read your aura and everything. She’s on my list too. I said Luna, Ginny, and Tonks.

Meg: Same exact for me, because Tonks is always a good time.

Pam: Yes, so Meg and I are hosting a joint sleepover. [laughs]

Chloé: Okay, Laura and I are having our own with Winky. Whatever. I feel like that group would play Just Dance. Does that resonate with anyone else?

Meg: Yeah.

Pam: That’d be fun.

Chloé: I feel like Ginny and Tonks would really slay Just Dance. [laughs]

Meg: They would.

Chloé: “Grubbly-Plank and McGonagall would have an amazing sleepover,” PotterPeep1591 said.

[Meg and Pam laugh]

Chloé: Yes, honestly. Molly, McGonagall, Grubbly-Plant, Sprout. I want to be at that sleepover too. It’s probably classy.

Meg: Madam Hooch!

Chloé: Madam Hooch. We know Madam Hooch likes the ladies. There ain’t no way she doesn’t. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I was definitely going to say my third person would be McGonagall. So McGonagall, Winky, and Luna. I feel like…

Chloé: McGonagall is bringing scotch and in her tartan robe.

Pam: She’s going to let her hair down.

Meg: And biscuits.

Pam: Biscuits, that’s important.

Laura: Perfect.

Chloé: And then the last one is what wizarding world cosmetic do you wish was real? And I checked and all of these are canon in the doc, which is pretty cool. But I was wondering which thing would you put above the others? Because I want all of these cosmetics, because it seems easy and it’s magic, but…

Meg: Bubotuber pus, absolutely.

Chloé: Me too, me too.

Meg: Because pimples? Evil.

Pam: I would go with the Sleekeazy’s.

Chloé: Sleekeazy’s, yeah, the hair potion.

Laura: I feel like I would probably choose something like the hair-thickening potion. But here’s the tea, y’all: I do this a lot. I see something, like a product, that I will think, “Oh my God, I need to have this,” and then it sits unused for months. So I imagine that’s what would happen here easily.

Pam: Easily influenced. I can relate. [laughs]

Chloé: First of all, the two of you influence me to get products all the time, so just know that.

Laura: I know.

[Pam laughs]

Chloé: I also feel so good when people ask me, like, “Oh my God, do you have a product recommendation?” because I love giving them. But I feel like, Laura, what probably exists in the wizarding world is hair color changer.

Laura: Hell yeah.

Chloé: A spell to change the color of your hair any color you want. How cool would it be to wake up one day and be like, “Today I want red hair,” and the next day be like, “Today I want black hair”? Like, if that existed? Obsessed.

Meg: Basically Tonks’s ability in a bottle.

Chloé: Yeah, Tonks’s ability in a bottle.

Laura: That would be great. I’d be so into that. All right, well, I’m going to have to decide what my next hair color is going to be based on that discussion, and maybe I’ll fill y’all in.

Meg: Tonks pink?

Laura: Maybe. I don’t know if I can pull off the bubblegum pink. We’ll find out.

Chloé: You can pull anything off.

Laura: Aww, thank you, love. Thank you, love. This has been wonderful; I’ve loved being on this panel with all of you. I feel like we’ve had some discussions that only a panel of women could have about interpretations of Harry Potter and the female characters in it, so thank you so much for being here again. We’ll get into some closing reminders here. If you’re an Apple Podcasts user, for just $2.99 a month you can receive ad-free and early access to MuggleCast right within the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon offers more benefits. If you would prefer to support us right within the Apple Podcasts app, that’s totally fine. The offer is there. Just tap into the show and you’ll see the subscribe button, plus a free trial for this is available. We would also love your support on our Patreon; we are a weekly podcast thanks to our supporters. And just a reminder for any of our Patreon subscribers who listen to us through Spotify, you can go to the MuggleCast show page on Spotify. Tap the banner that says “Exclusive episodes for subscribers,” then you can connect your Patreon account to Spotify and access all of our bonus episodes and ad-free content right there. Make sure that you hit follow on the show, too, because it’s the Patreon-exclusive feed, and it has some super cool artwork. If you use Spotify but aren’t a patron yet, this is also a great way to support us and enjoy our twice monthly bonus MuggleCast segments as well as ad-free MuggleCast. Whether you listen on Patreon, the Patreon app, your favorite podcast app, or Spotify, you get access to bonus MuggleCast if you are a patron. And if you’re enjoying MuggleCast and think other Muggles would, too, you can tell a friend about the show. We’d also appreciate it if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. And Chloé, do you want to do the honors with the social plug?

Chloé: I would really like to do the honors. Thank you so much, Laura.

Laura: Go for it.

Chloé: Do not forget to follow us on our social media. Our username is @MuggleCast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok – and Andrew for some reason loves to emphasize it, so – and Threads! So go check us out; we have a lot of fun on there. I certainly have a lot of fun on there. [laughs] So make sure to check us out. I also wanted, if any of y’all want to plug yourselves at all, or I know Laura and Pam are on Millennial, so if you enjoy this conversation, you should absolutely check Millennial out. We also have fun on there. Follow me if you feel inclined; I’m at @ChloéLaverson on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. I do a lot of stuff just like this, talking about Harry Potter and girly stuff, and it’s a lot of fun.

Meg: I’ll plug my art site.

Laura: Go for it.

Chloé: Yes!

Meg: I’m an artist and you can find my stuff at Meg-Scott-Art.com, because MegScottArt.com was taken. So it’s MegScottArt but with two hyphens in there.

[Chloé laughs]

Pam: And Chloé already did a fabulous job of plugging Millennial for Laura and I; that’s the show that we do with Andrew every week.

Chloé: I’m a stan.

Pam: [laughs] If you want to join us over there and you’re okay with a more explicit show, please feel free to check us out. And if you want to come hang out with me anywhere online, I’m at @PamGocobachi everywhere, and it’s a mouthful, but I’m sure Chloé will include links in the show notes.

Laura: Yep. And y’all know where to find me; I’m @LaumTee on Instagram. On Twitter, @Laurrrrrrrrita is my username.

[Chloé and Pam laugh]

Laura: I don’t remember how many r’s there are in it, but…

Chloé: It’s eight. It’s eight r’s.

Laura: Oh, okay. See, Chloé is our social media expert, so she knows my handles better than I do. If you can’t find it, just go to any of the MuggleCast socials; they follow me, so you can find me there.

Chloé: Flex.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Anyway, this has been so fun. Again, thanks, y’all, for coming. And thanks, everyone who tuned in with us tonight and joined us live in the Discord. We had so, so much fun with y’all tonight. We will see you next time. We’d love to hear your feedback about this week’s episode, so please feel free to leave us some comments on the socials. If you’re a patron, leave some comments on the Patreon. We want to hear it in the Discord and MuggleCast@gmail.com. Please keep it coming. We want to hear what you loved about this this week. Again, thanks for tuning in, y’all, and thanks, panel, for being here. I’m Laura.

Chloé: I’m Chloé.

Meg: I’m Meg.

Pam: And I’m Pamela.

Laura: Bye, y’all.

Meg and Pam: Bye.

Chloé: Woo!

Transcript #632

 

MuggleCast 632 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #632, The Benefits of Electric Fireplaces (GOF Chapter 4, Back to the Burrow)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Unblock your fireplace; Chapter by Chapter is coming floo. Whoa, what word play, Eric.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Thanks, Andrew.

Micah: Can we make that the seven-word summary?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Somehow, someway?

Andrew: This week we’re discussing Chapter 4, “Back to the Burrow.” But first, a couple of quick reminders. Micah, Quizzitch Live is coming up.

Micah: Yeah, Quizzitch Live is coming later on this week, next Saturday, October 28, 11:00 a.m. Eastern time. I know we’re all very excited to be bringing this back. This is something we all enjoy, doing our best Alex Trebek, Ken Jennings, Mayim Bialik impressions. Impersonations, I should say. It’s something that during the pandemic was, I think, important for us and important for our listeners. We really enjoy doing it; we enjoy giving away prizes. So this edition, I know we’ve talked about it on previous episodes, it’s going to be a little bit Halloween-themed with the wizarding world candy and with James and Lily, but the main focus of it is on OWLs. Charms, Potions, Transfiguration, and Defense Against the Dark Arts. Do not study anything other than those subjects. Don’t waste your time because there’s not going to be any questions on other subjects, just those. And shout-out to Nicole H. for coming up with the questions. She’s a longtime listener of the show going all the way back to 2005.

Andrew: And there’s also going to be the wizarding world candy in the James and Lily category, so maybe study up there, too, if you want. But yeah, this is always a lot of fun. We’ll have more info posted on social media so you can tune in live and participate.

Eric: Do you guys remember HQ? How everyone would tune in for that? It was so… this is that level of interactivity and fun, except you’re part of our group when you can go live. And when you’re listening at home later, you can still have all the fun that we’re having talking about Harry Potter. It’s just always a good time.

Andrew: And in our version of live trivia, you’ll win more than a nickel if you actually win the game.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: I don’t think I ever won a nickel.

Andrew: So yeah, stay tuned for that. Also, just a reminder, visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, and to contact us. And visit Patreon.com/MuggleCast if you want to support the show and receive early access to the show, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, yearly physical gifts, and much more. Actually, speaking of bonus episodes, we’re doing two a month, and we’re recording two right after this episode. Eric first, what’s on tap from you?

Eric: Well, Andrew, we have each received a prestigious invitation for a Halloween ball at Malfoy Manor. It’s been 19 years since the events of Book 7, so don’t worry, the place is kind of chill.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And we’re going to be designing our own wizarding world Halloween costumes, but we’re using magic because we’re all witches and wizards. So the sky is the limit. We’re each going to pick a cool outfit. And we’ll be hearing from patrons, also, who had the same prompt.

Andrew: And then Laura, you’re bringing back a bonus MuggleCast that we did a few weeks ago. We had so much fun with it, so we’re doing another installment.

Laura: Yeah, we’re doing a second installment of Harry Potter headcanons where we propose some of our favorite interpretations of what might have been going on behind the scenes, maybe not on the page from Harry’s perspective, but ultimately, things that don’t break canon but that still add depth to the story. This ended up being a really popular installment of bonus MuggleCast when we did it, so we decided, let’s do a second edition. And who knows? Maybe this will be a recurring theme.

Andrew: It should be, because the sky’s the limit with this segment, I think. So those will both be available at Patreon.com/MuggleCast in the next couple of weeks. You can listen to all of our bonus audio content and ad-free MuggleCast and early access to MuggleCast through your favorite podcast apps, by the way. There’s just this one time setup after you pledge on Patreon.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: All right, with that, let’s get to Chapter by Chapter, and this week we’re discussing Chapter 4 of Goblet of Fire, “Back to the Burrow,” and we’ll start with our seven-word summary.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Arthur…

Eric: … attempts…

Micah: … to…

Laura: … help…

Eric: … with…

Micah: … Dudley’s…

Andrew: … tongue.

Laura: Hey, we did it.

Eric: Yay!

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Eric: Last week we did two chapters in a row because they were short and to the point. This one is also short and to the point, but I thought it was worth saving this episode for just this chapter, because I wanted to detail out all of the egregious offenses that the Weasleys visit upon the Dursleys. And there are so many things I think that we’re going to be discussing about how this whole situation need not have happened and was needlessly cruel to everyone’s favorite nicest Muggles in the world, Vernon, Petunia, and Dudley.

Andrew: And Eric tends to be a pretty big Weasley fanboy, so for him to come out with this list of offenses, I think, is pretty shocking.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Just Ginny.

Andrew: Well, yeah.

Eric: Yes, Ginny is spared from this criticism. The first offense I want to talk about is not just sending a single delegate. So we’re trying to get Harry to the Burrow, and he’s going to have a great extra two weeks in the wizarding world from what he normally would because they have the Quidditch World Cup. So why is it that Arthur, Ron, Fred, and George all need to come? When it’s just a simple… somebody could come through, give him some Floo Powder, “Harry, come with us.” The Dursleys are just three people. They’re already apprehensive about magic; everyone knows it. Why would there be more than two Weasleys coming to get Harry? And we know in the next chapter Fred and George force their way in, but it shouldn’t even be the kids. Ron already knows what Harry looks like; there’s no point for Ron to be there. Arthur should have brought Molly. Sending the parents would have been the formal thing to do. Remember the chapter “The Invitation”?

Micah: The proper thing.

Eric: The proper thing! The proper thing, especially if they’re trying to make a good impression on these people who are predisposed to dislike wizards.

Andrew: Right, I mean, that’s the key factor there, that they are already very hesitant to be around wizards. They are repulsed by them, it stresses them out, they’re afraid they’re going to attack. So Arthur needs to get control of his kids – see Fred and George…

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … and not let them go, because he probably sensed this too. He shouldn’t bring a bigger group to pick up Harry.

Micah: It does make sense to me, though, that Ron is there, because he’s Harry’s friend. So naturally, Arthur would take Ron along with him. Fred and George, however, saw an opportunity to create a little bit of havoc, and I think they pounced on that opportunity and decided to come along with Arthur in this case.

Andrew: Or why not just…? Okay, so it’s Ron, Arthur, and Molly, and Arthur and Molly wait on the roof and Ron goes down the chimney by himself, or just knocks on the door, which will…

Laura: Like he’s Santa Claus or something?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: That’s not how the Floo network works.

Andrew: Arthur and Molly are the reindeer. I’m just trying to think of a less intrusive way for them to get through while still using the chimney.

Micah: Oh, there’s some AI. I’ll work on that for you, Andrew.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: [sings] Molly, the red-haired reindeer…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Wow, that’s really good.

Micah: Well, we’re two months early for this, but okay.

Laura: I don’t know if this would have gone any better if Arthur had brought Molly. Certainly from the perspective of nobody dropping magic candy on the ground for Dudley to get, right? But I feel like Molly, if anything, is even less knowledgeable about Muggle culture, and could have potentially contributed to things getting more awkward between all of them. I don’t know. I mean, the fact that she even refers in her letter to Harry needing to send his response back the “normal” way… I just think about what her filter would have been in front of the Dursleys, and I don’t know that she would have had one. I think Arthur at least tries.

Eric: That’s true. When Arthur defends, kind of makes Vernon say goodbye to the boy, Molly wouldn’t have let that sit. She would have gone further than that with them.

Micah: It’s also important to remember, though, that Arthur has experience with Muggles, as opposed to Molly, going off what you’re saying, Laura. So Arthur may know how to read the room a little bit better – not totally because things get out of control – but it also raises a question that I had a little bit later on, but why would the Weasleys not let Harry know how they were going to show up?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That seems like a big miss that causes a lot of chaos when they decide to pop through the fireplace.

Eric: Yeah, you’re exactly right about that.

Laura: Yeah, they probably just, again, assumed that Harry would know how they were going to arrive. Because he’s been in the wizarding world; he’s familiar with their forms of travel. But what they’re not accounting for is that Harry spent the first 11 years of his life thinking he was a Muggle, right? So I imagine when he goes back to the Dursleys, there’s a different part of his brain that is on. It’s his Muggle brain because he knows he’s there, he can’t use magic, things are not going to be like they are in the other world where he spends 90% of his time. And because the Weasleys have no frame of reference for that, they don’t even think to bring it up to him.

Andrew: And I mean, a theory we go back to time and time again is that wizards just love chaos.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Harry says it himself about Hogwarts a chapter or two ago.

Eric: “Wizards.” We mean Dumbledore, but yes, wizards.

Andrew: Well, just everybody doesn’t seem to mind. Nobody seems to mind the chaos if you’re a wizard.

Micah: Dumbledore is totally watching from outside the window. That’s my headcanon.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: He’s just had tea with Mrs. Figg. Yeah, we’ll put that in the bonus. Yeah, the second offense I want to talk about – and this leans a little bit more toward Fred and George – but I think in general, being insensitive to Dudley’s trauma. Dudley has trauma. Dudley in this chapter is shown multiple times to be grabbing his own backside, rubbing his backside. He remembers, as it turns out, this time when he had a pig’s tail when Hagrid tried to turn him into a whole pig and it failed. In fact, this book actually talks about how the Dursleys had to go to a private hospital to have that tail removed. Look, Dudley does not, and for good reason, have a liking for wizards. He doesn’t feel safe around them; look at what happened last time for no reason. So it’s just unfortunate that the Weasleys would show up and use so much magic. They’re capable of Muggle transit, they drove a car to the Burrow last time… they flew a car. But just using magic, arriving by magic… I know they can’t predict the fireplace will be boarded up, but I think that there was a better way to more calmly… I mean, again, everything everyone knows about the Dursleys is they don’t like magic. Try and arrive in a more normal way. That’s why the invitation was sent through the post and not by owl, because they already knew enough to know the Dursleys don’t like magic. So showing up using all this magic, not to mention what Fred and George do to Dudley on purpose, is very insensitive to Dudley’s trauma.

Micah: Can we just talk… you mentioned the fireplace. You mentioned trauma. Just wanted to bring up the fact that, as you alluded to, it is boarded up. So there’s an additional layer of some kind of trauma that exists here on the part of Vernon and Petunia because they have assumingly not let their fireplace operate as a normal fireplace since Sorcerer’s Stone. They have an electric one in front of it. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, you’re right. That’s a sign of trauma. They don’t feel safe in their own home while their fireplace remains un-boarded.

Andrew: There’s many good reasons to have an electric fireplace, though. No smoke, energy efficient, save money, low maintenance, anyone can enjoy an electric fireplace.

Micah: Are you reading that?

Eric: Andrew, who are our sponsors this week?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I googled benefits of electric fireplace. [laughs] Besides blocking wizards.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, that’s a bonus for the Dursleys if they were trying to…

Micah: Sorry, I didn’t mean to throw off your question.

Andrew: Well, to get back to it, I read this chapter and really thought Dudley is a victim in this chapter, and has been a victim before. He shouldn’t have gotten that tail; that was unfair. And his parents are the ones that are enabling his bad behavior. He didn’t need to be raised this way. So I just I feel bad for Dudley in this chapter.

Laura: Yeah, his parents definitely set him up for failure. An interesting interpretation I had of this, though – it’s not to say that Dudley isn’t traumatized or that this wasn’t horrible for him – but just zooming out and thinking about the total landscape, the Weasleys don’t know about the pig tail from three years ago. Again, that doesn’t justify anything, but it’s knowledge that they don’t have, I believe. And I do read this through the lens of culture shock, in a way, because I think we’ve all probably experienced this at one point or another, whether we were in another country or otherwise immersed in another culture. Things that may seem obvious to all of us based on our cultural understanding may be the complete opposite if you step into someone else’s home, and I think that’s what’s happening here. I didn’t have this interpretation originally reading the book, I think, because they’re all British, so to an extent, I wasn’t thinking about the idea of culture shock. But them being British is almost secondary to them being wizards versus them being Muggles, which I think is just a really interesting read on the situation. Because you can see the Dursleys, for all of their flaws, they are trying to put their best foot forward in the only way they know how. Arthur is trying to put his best foot forward in the only way he knows how, and it’s just not working.

Eric: I think it’s clear that Fred and George do tip the scale into disaster from slight discomfort.

Laura: Yes.

Eric: So there is at least that, where you’re right, they’re putting their best feet forward. I’ll also say it’s a really great point of this didn’t necessarily come across when we were younger and reading this; it does just seem like culture… now I’m like, “Oh my God, the Weasleys are awful.” [laughs]

Andrew: I had this thought too. Well, especially when it comes to just how Fred and George treated Dudley. As a kid, you read this and you’re like, “Haha, prank.” And that’s the type of thing you see in school maybe, and you don’t think about how that would actually affect the person who the prank is being played on. But now you read it as an adult, and with hindsight and getting older, you’re like, “Whoa, that was actually really, really, really mean.” And as a kid, it’s entertaining. As an adult, it’s disturbing.

Micah: You could make the same point, too, about Sorcerer’s Stone and what Hagrid does. We look past it because Dudley is getting into Harry’s birthday cake, and so, oh, let’s punish Dudley for just wanting to do what he’s always done because his parents have enabled him in that way. But really, you could look at Dudley as being a victim in that chapter as well. Both Dudley and Harry are victims of the Dursleys in very different ways. And Dudley gets his fair share, whether it’s Book 1, it’s in this book, it’s in the next book with the Dementors… he does take quite a beating physically and emotionally in this series.

Eric: That’s a great point. And viewing this through the lens of culture shock, when I think of culture shock, I think of, like, you go to that friend’s house and you’re asked to take your shoes off, right? And you’re like, “Oh, but I wear shoes all around my house,” which is disgusting; you should never do it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But you know how that was a big thing. I feel like it came in vogue, or it’s like, “Wait, what? Take my shoes off out front?” It’s like the difference between when they arrive and the fireplace is boarded up; Mr. Weasley is just like, “Wait a minute, why? Who would board up…? What? How does that…?” And you’re right, it’s not really necessarily even a normal response to what happened, because I love this note in the doc. Why didn’t they board up the windows? Why didn’t they…? The letters were coming in the eggs.

Andrew: Yeah, where does it end?

Micah: But because the fireplace is boarded up, that leads to that additional level of culture shock, to your point, Laura, because he has to essentially blow open the fireplace, get the living room completely dirty. He’s got to reset a fire in the hearth for them to be able to get back. So all these things happen as if the Dursleys had just not chosen to board up the fireplace because of their own biases initially. Arthur would have probably made a little bit of a different entrance. It still would have been culture shock, but I don’t know if it would have been as intense.

Laura: Yeah. Well, because to Arthur and to a wizard, they think about making a huge mess like that; it’s not a big deal, because you can just use magic to clean it up real quick. But that’s not a reality for a Muggle, right? Petunia is looking at that being like, “Oh my God, I have to clean all of this up.”

Eric: Yeah, she’s thinking of the physical labor that she’s going to… yeah. And it’s little white dust. If anyone’s ever damaged their wall, that dust goes everywhere. I don’t even think a Reparo can get it all. So this third offense – by the way, there are five – Andrew agrees with me. It’s showing up late af, okay? The Dursleys, try as they might to be as ready as they can, are ready to receive the Weasleys at 4:45 for a 5:00 appointment. They’re dressed nicely, the house is pristine, Harry’s stuff has been packed up since noon. And yet, it isn’t until 5:30, 45 minutes after they’re ready…

Andrew: Ugh.

Eric: … 5:30 that the commotion behind the fireplace starts, so I think it is safe to say that the Weasleys were not on time. This is an egregious offense against everyone. And they really had one shot at this and they blew it.

Andrew: I hate when people are late. And I think we need to ask ourselves, are the Weasleys the type of people who are perpetually late to things? I don’t think there’s a ton to suggest this in the text. But maybe they are, and it wouldn’t surprise me with such a big family. There’s a lot of people to get ready, a lot of fires to be putting out throughout the day.

Eric: And yet, magic helps. A Portkey is timed, you have a timed window, so you can’t possibly be late or you’ll miss the Portkey. In fact, I think that’s the whole thing a few chapters from now. So they’re probably not always late. Look, I get it; when they arrive behind the fireplace, it wasn’t expected that it was blocked, but they didn’t spend 30 minutes stuck behind the fireplace or they would have heard them sooner. They were late. They just showed up. I don’t know what they were doing. I know their clock doesn’t really show time; their clock shows where they are. [laughs] Maybe that’s the problem.

Andrew: Yeah, but I mean, this is an important meeting. They know the Dursleys are going to be expecting them on time. And I know Molly and the Dursleys have seen each other – maybe Arthur, too – prior, on the platform, or outside of Platform 9 3/4. But this is effectively a first meeting. This is an important meeting, and they need to make a good first impression.

Laura: I’ll call that out as another culture shock moment, to be honest with you, because there are absolutely cultures where this is very normal, where you established, “Yeah, we’re going to meet at 5,” and that really means, “We’re meeting at 6.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So again, not saying that nobody has a right to be annoyed by this because that’s just all of our cultural norms, right? I don’t like to be late for things and don’t like to feel like I’m keeping people waiting; it does make me feel weird. But I will confess, I’m pretty bad with time management.

Andrew: I hate being late.

Micah: Me too.

Eric: Thank you for being vulnerable.

Laura: I do hate being late. It gives me so much anxiety. And yet, I’m still late for things.

Andrew: Yeah, Laura, it’s been a sticking point over the years. [sighs]

Laura: Oh, no, I’m calling that out because it’s been well documented, I feel. [laughs]

Andrew: No, I don’t think… I mean, when it comes to our digital work, I don’t think so. We don’t see each other enough in person to know what you’re like. [laughs]

Laura: Oh, okay. Well, if we all ever move into the same neighborhood together, you’ll get to see it firsthand.

Andrew: Right. I’m going to start telling you, “Oh, come over at 4:30,” so you actually come at the time I want you to, which is 5:00 or 5:30 or something like that.

Laura: Yeah, that’s the move. [laughs]

Micah: Learning a lot here today. But I think it just compounds it, though, doesn’t it? I mean, it’s just adding to your list, Eric. Now, I will say I don’t think 30 minutes is late af. It’s late, but it’s not super late.

Andrew: For an important meeting like this and no heads up?

Eric: Well, usually you put af in capitals, and I put it in lowercase. I don’t know if that makes it better.

Micah: You just have to be able to read the room. And we were talking about this earlier, the Weasleys just don’t… at least Arthur doesn’t have enough information on the Dursleys and who they are, and how they function as people, and really how they treat Harry, what their worldviews are… Arthur is doing everything wrong here. Not intentionally, but he’s doing everything wrong.

Eric: Yeah, and you hate to see it because you like to imagine… I know later we’re going to be playing “What If?” [imitates “What If?” sound effect] But you’d like to imagine a world in which the Weasleys and Dursleys can at least exist in the same room without so much acrimony.

Micah: But it’s just so hoity-toity when you hear Petunia say, “Well, of course they’re late, they probably want to stay for dinner.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Oh man.

Eric: And that’s so funny because it’s projecting your own shit on other people. Well, it’s also what Petunia might do; she’s aware of that tactic because she’s the kind of person who… she thinks that way, is what I’m saying. So it’s really interesting, the idea that they would have to feed the Weasleys is a whole other thing. But here’s really the… well, actually, these escalate, these offenses I’ve written down, because number five is even worse. But here’s number four: baiting Dudley. Fred and George know exactly what they’re doing. They know that if they hand candy to a fat kid, he’s still going to be nervous about them and probably not take it, but if they, oopsie, drop candy, which is exactly what happens after Fred and George get from taking Harry’s trunk down from his bedroom, oops, they know that all of the defenses are going to come down and Dudley is going to go grab the toffee, which is what happens. This baiting of Dudley is singly malicious, let alone what it does to him, which is next, but just the baiting is the wrong attitude entirely. This goes beyond a prank.

Laura: Yeah, and they’re exploiting what they know about him being on a very restrictive diet too.

Eric: Ooh, that’s right. Harry told them that just to get food sent to him, and then Fred and George were like, “We can play with this.”

Micah: Yeah, it’s bit sinister.

Laura: It is.

Micah: And we know that Dudley has certain addictions, and one of them is definitely to sweets, and so I think this behavior by the twins is really feeding Dudley’s addiction. It’s tempting him in the moment to betray his diet and all the other things that he’s doing presumably to try and get into better physical shape.

Andrew: And of course, he’s happy to betray his diet.

Micah: Of course, how old is he?

Andrew: I mean, it’s being forced on him. He doesn’t want it at all. Exactly.

Eric: That’s why he’s targeted, he is so calorie restricted right now and then this food just drops on the carpet. And again, it’s done so innocently; if they’d given him the food, Vernon and Petunia would have been like, “No, Dudley, don’t touch that.”

Laura: Do we remember from reading the chapter which one of the twins dropped the toffees?

Eric: I’ll look it up real quick, but I bet it was Fred.

Andrew: Yeah, I bet it was Fred.

Laura: I was going to say, because that would match up with our previous conversations about the differences between Fred and George.

Eric: Yeah, that was… we did a great episode where it was like, “How are they different?” And Fred really is the instigator. Fred also always goes too far.

Andrew: It was Fred, by the way.

Eric: Well, there you go. So yeah, he’s the one that… if there is a hard edge to the Weasley twins, and they both do ridiculous things, but it’s Fred.

Micah: Yeah. And the behavior, though, is not inconsistent with what we see from these twins later on as they start to test their product on first year students.

Eric: That’s right.

Micah: And Dudley is the initial testing ground. And honestly, for Fred, it’s like leaving the scene of the crime because he doesn’t even try and help Dudley. Is it just presumed that his tongue is going to un-swell?

Eric: Well, and that actually puts Arthur in an impossible position, right? Arthur guesses that the toffee is an Engorgement Charm, a simple Engorgement Charm term. What if he’s wrong, right? What if there’s something a little special in there? Fred and George leave Arthur completely unprepared to have to rescue and save this Muggle’s life basically, so that’s bad on them for what they do to their dad too.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I think this is the moment that teaches them they need to have antidotes on hand, if I recall correctly. When they’re testing on first years, they also go around and pass out the antidote candy to whatever it is they’re testing. But the fact that that wasn’t even a thought here, especially considering that they were testing on a Muggle, is definitely sinister.

Eric: Well, to that point of Fred and George not sticking around, also, they are trying this on a Muggle, and Muggles work a little differently with… it’s been said in the canon that Muggles and potions, they can be poisoned, actually, trying to take a… if you’re a non-magical person taking a magic potion, it’s not just that it won’t affect you: It could be a poison. They could have unusual effects. When they try it on fellow wizards and the students at school, that’s actually fully different than trying it on Dudley, so there was an element there of extra danger that Fred and George just completely overlooked. So moving into the fifth and final offense, the actual result of the toffee is extremely harsh. And I kept… we’re a lot older now than when we first read these books, but now I read this chapter and I go, “Oh, God, what a way to go.” Your tongue growing to the length of four feet long, it’s said, coming out of your mouth. You don’t have a lot of…

Micah: Like Lickitung. That’s kind of what I imagine.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, like Lickitung. It’s exactly like Lickitung.

Andrew: Pokémon.

Eric: Honestly, yeah.

Micah: One thing I did take a little bit of a look at is the symbolism of choking on one’s own tongue, and particularly in some Native American cultures, it represents the need to find one’s voice and be true to oneself. And I think that’s very appropriate for Dudley because I don’t think that he knows who he is, as any teenager wouldn’t at this time, but I think in particular, being true to himself, I don’t think he is. I think he’s very much influenced at this stage by his parents. And we see that change by Deathly Hallows, so just wanted to call that out.

Laura: That’s a great call-out.

Eric: I love that.

Andrew: Yeah, I was going to say, your Deathly Hallows connection there is very good. And maybe this is something that could be explored more in the TV show, more of Dudley’s hesitancy to just go with the flow with his parents, given what we know about his brief chat with Harry in Deathly Hallows.

Laura: Do we think that the Dursleys are making this worse than it needs to be?

Micah: Yes. [laughs]

Laura: I mean, it’s described as Petunia, like, throws herself on top of Dudley and she’s making him choke worse.

Eric: That’s her kid, though.

Andrew: She’s a Muggle and watching her son’s tongue explode 50 times in length.

Laura: Oh, I know. This is this is like her Joffrey death moment, right?

Eric: Oh, yes!

Laura: She’s freaking out, I understand. But the Dursleys do have a…

Eric: Overdramatic.

Laura: … tendency to overreact to things and make them worse. Again, not justifying it happening. I’m just saying they’re making it worse.

Eric: They’re in an impossible situation, though. The only person who can save Dudley is this person that they don’t trust and have been given no reason to trust because see offenses one through four.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: This man’s child has just poisoned their child,

Micah: Right.

Eric: What does that say about this man, right? And he’s too bumbling to be able to… the twins’ greatest offense was actually against their dad, like I said, because he’s got to clean this all up. It reflects negatively on his job working with Muggles, to Micah’s point earlier, but I think also the characterization of this, why it goes over our heads as a kid, it’s a fun scene. “Don’t the Dursleys suck? Yeah.” But the wording from the narrator at this moment is “Harry didn’t want to miss the fun,” as Vernon is chucking ornaments at Mr. Weasleys head and they’re shattering behind his head on the fireplace. “Harry didn’t want to miss the fun”? [laughs] That’s completely not what’s going on here. Their son is dying. Come on, now.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and this is also a trauma response for Harry, I think, right? Because this is a family of people who have abused him his entire life, so he’s taking some pleasure in watching them suffer.

Micah: Yeah, he’s like, “Hell yeah, chaos in the Dursley living room.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: What can Harry ask for more than that, honestly? So from the perspective of a 14-year-old, I get it. But it’s also one of those situations where magic got Dudley into this situation, so magic is going to have to get him out of this situation. It’s not… and I was honestly surprised by the pig tail being removed at a regular hospital; I had always for some reason had in my head that he went to St. Mungo’s for that.

Eric: But again, the Dursleys don’t trust wizards, so even though wizards got him into this situation, they’re looking for any and all normal means…

Micah: What are they going to do?


Odds & Ends


Eric: All right, as we get into some little things and odds and ends, I’m reminded that I need to rescind my compliment to Goblet of Fire for not having any recap at the beginning of the book. We actually got a lot of recap. And there’s some more of it here; as Harry is packing his trunk to get ready for the Weasleys, we are reminded that some of his most prized possessions actually come from other people. His Invisibility Cloak he got from his dad, his latest broom he got from his godfather, and the Marauder’s Map he got from Fred and George. Wow, Fred and George, such nice blokes. So it’s just a good way of wrapping it all up and showing that Harry is better with the people that are around him, and I think it casts a light on this chapter of… he’s going to be with his people. We want to see Harry get to be with the kind of people that would give him these gifts because the Dursleys just ain’t that.

Micah: I will say, I do like the fact that James, Sirius, and then it’s Fred and George that are mentioned because the comparisons between them is often very similar in terms of their behavior.

Eric: Oh, that’s so good.

Micah: Although I’m not sure. Well, would James and Sirius have done what Fred and George…? Well, let’s call out Fred. I don’t know which one is more like Fred. James, probably.

Eric: James, yeah. Wow, I wasn’t expecting to draw that comparison, which specific James and Sirius… which Weasley? Yeah, I think it works. If it were Snape, they would. But if it were anyone else, they wouldn’t do the same thing.

Micah: Chloé is pointing out that Sirius almost killed Snape, so maybe he’s more like Fred. very similar in terms of their behavior.

Laura: Yeah, I was sitting here thinking the same thing, that it was maybe more of a Sirius comparison.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, the only thing holding James back would be that Lily would never talk to him again if he hurt Snape, so maybe it is Sirius. Well, it’s an interesting thought experiment. So the other big question I have about this chapter is the use of magic in Privet Drive, because it’s been determined before in these books that magic done in this Muggle home is Harry’s fault. That’s what happens with Dobby and the Hover Charm in Book 2. And so everything from blowing the fireplace out to having to fix Dudley’s tongue, the Ministry would be on them like flies on you-know-what about all of this underage magic all of a sudden happening. Because the trace is flawed, and you can’t really tell who does the magic. Anyway, the Ministry would be here in seconds, I think.

Laura: Doesn’t the Ministry have the ability to detect if someone of age is present at the time of the magic being used? Because I feel like we’ve seen other examples of magic being used at Number 4 that came from adult wizards. Dumbledore definitely uses magic at Number 4.

Eric: Well, it’s possible that’s a plot hole, too, when Dumbledore does it. Because in Book 7 during the Seven Potters, Moody tells Harry that’s why they have to take the Polyjuice Potion, because they will set off the trace and the Ministry will know where they are if they detect magic at Privet Drive.

Laura: Yeah. It is so interesting because we know that the Ministry doesn’t pick up on Dobby because they don’t consider non-human magical beings I think worth the while to have on their radar.

Andrew: Still seems like an oversight.

Eric: Well, when Harry does the Patronus Charm next book is when the whole trial and court date and all that other crap happens, so in that case it is Harry casting the spell.

Andrew: And by the way, with the context of Fantastic Beasts, the movie series, it seems all the more strange that they don’t track magic coming out of creatures. Now, I know Newt is a special case because he’s walking around with his suitcase and has a lot of creatures that he can take out, or he’s trying to meet creatures, beasts, but still. It’s like, you know they can cause trouble, so it’s good to track them just in case they do.

Micah: Yeah, and Privet Drive in and of itself is a special Muggle location. I feel like…

Andrew: Don’t tell Vernon that.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, I mean, it probably has its own room at the Ministry where people are constantly monitoring what’s going on there because Harry lives there.

Andrew: [laughs] Don’t tell Vernon that!

Micah: Well, you know what? Tough. But the other thing that came to mind for me in particular, number one, Arthur is a Ministry official. So I’m sure that if a Ministry official is performing magic in a Muggle residence, it’s somewhat permissible. But also layer on, too, the fact that he works for the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office, so presumably he would be using magic in Muggle homes quite often. So I don’t think that it would necessarily raise too many flags.

Eric: That’s a good point. I wonder if it does have to do with that Arthur also got the Privet Drive fireplace hooked up to the Floo Network, which is not particularly legal, he says. Did that same person give a blanket “Magic may happen, we’re going to mute notifications for magic at this sector for the next hour or so”?

Andrew: Focus Mode on the iPhone.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Well, that explains why the court date and all that doesn’t happen for Harry this book; we’ll get it next year. The question that I have… so here’s also the sticking point as far as Arthur standing up to Vernon. Despite everything that’s happened already, Arthur still demands that Vernon say goodbye to the boy. He says, “You’re not going to see him until next year,” and this is a moment where we really actually fall in love with Arthur all over again, right? He’s clearly on the wrong foot so far, but Arthur doesn’t care. He knows that the right thing to do would be to say good boy – [laughs] good boy – goodbye to your nephew.

Andrew: Goodbye and good boy. Yeah, I thought this was a really powerful moment, how Arthur is standing up to Vernon, and it almost comes off like he’s speaking out of turn just because they don’t know each other. If you try to imagine your own father saying this to somebody else… I don’t know. This is… or your own… it’s a unique situation for Harry, but it’s very forward. It’s not something I think you would see coming. And I love Harry’s thought process during this moment, too, just being like, “You know what, it’s fine. I don’t care. Let’s just get out of here. This has already been enough of a moment.” Harry is not looking for that because he also doesn’t need that from Vernon.

Eric: Yeah, he’s selling himself short on that. He’s like, “I don’t expect them to ever do the right thing around me.” He’s like, “Let’s move on; you’re fighting a losing battle.” If the Dursleys were to say “None of your business,” they’d kind of be right, to Arthur, but they don’t know that he’s also the surrogate father that Harry never had. I think it’s a shame that Arthur does never get to actually learn about electricity. He’s excited about the plugs. [laughs] He never would have… he never got to learn how any of it works. So I want to ask…

Andrew: Well, Harry could tell him.

Eric: That’s true.

Andrew: I mean, he’s been living there. He could fill him in if he wanted to.

Eric: Yeah. But if things had gone a little better, which we’re going to talk about in a minute, what about the Dursleys’ appliances, electronics, do we think Arthur would have really liked the most?

Laura: I think he’d be super interested in how cable television works, right? So he would understand the apparatus and how it connects to an electrical outlet to get power, “But how are you getting all these programs on here? How is this transmitted?”

Andrew: “And pictures? Where’s it coming from?”

Eric: Arthur Weasley, couch potato in the making.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: It’s also an interesting question because you have to assume the Dursleys’ home isn’t particularly exciting. With peace and love I say to my grandparents, their house is boring.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: There’s a television. There’s a phone. There’s not much else going on. They have an electric fireplace, too, by the way. I don’t think it’s because somebody tried to come through the fireplace via the Floo Network, but…

Eric: [laughs] It is a perfect comparison. Your grandparents’ house growing up is the Dursleys’ house in these books. Yeah, there’s electric, but there’s nothing else.

Andrew: [laughs] Right? So I think of the television that my grandfather has up way too loud at his old age, but he can’t hear. And then I’m thinking maybe the phone. If Dudley hadn’t thrown the PlayStation out the window, then maybe he’d be interested in the PlayStation and Mega-Mutilation 3, anything else electronic. But again, I just don’t think they have much electronic in the house, or cool.

Laura: I’ll say, as a kid, I loved going to my grandparents’ house. [laughs] For me, it was always really fun.

Andrew: Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong…

Eric: I mean, it was a chill time, and it got good natural light. I’ll say that.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Sunlight was very much the highlight of my grandparents’ house visits, actually.

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: I’m not saying I don’t like my grandparents’ house. I’m just saying it’s the Dursleys’ house.

Laura: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying.

Micah: I think if Arthur had shown up in the “right way,” I could see him being fascinated with the doorbell and just standing there pushing it constantly.

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Andrew: That could be cool, yeah.

Eric: All right, it’s time for “What if?”

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Eric: I said at the start of our list of offenses segment that it should have been Molly and Arthur who show up, so I’m asking the question now, what if? What if only Molly and Arthur Weasley showed up To take Harry back to the Burrow? So you have his surrogate parents and his guardians meeting. Would it have improved relations between the two? Would they have been okay and maybe improved… been able to see each other in the future in an amicable way?

Andrew: Besties coming over for Poker Night. [laughs] Wouldn’t that have been nice?

Eric: Yeah, different, separate and different days?

Micah: I feel like, because we got Arthur to show up, there was a lot of interaction between him and Vernon. We don’t see really any interaction between Arthur and Petunia. She’s very much hiding behind Vernon, and then of course, once Dudley has his tongue enlarged, she’s focused totally on him. I think it’d be interesting to see what kind of dynamic would have existed between Molly and Petunia. I wonder if you would have got the “Not my Harry, you bitch” earlier on in the stories…

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: … that we get in Deathly Hallows, but I feel like she could have given it to Petunia for the way Harry has been treated.

Laura: She would’ve.

Eric: I love this idea of Molly as a more volatile Arthur. Just very worse, very, very much worse. The forcing Vernon to say goodbye to the boy, Molly would have made them hug or some bullshit. It just would have been awful.

Micah: I wonder if she would have brought knitted sweaters for them as a gift. [laughs]

Eric: Aww. Wait, wait, there’s an example where she could show up. Yeah, a gift. What a great idea that I think Molly might be capable of thinking about, of actually thinking of and bringing up. If they had showed up on time, if they didn’t have to blast the fireplace in to do it, I think there was a potential there for the two to get along. A little friction, sure, sure, but I think that they’re both adults. It’s not that Molly and Arthur are criminally unlikable by Muggles. Maybe these Muggles, but I think Molly and Arthur are generally good people. It’s their kids you’ve got to worry about, Marty. Their kids.

Andrew: [laughs] I would’ve just preferred Molly and Arthur knocking on the front door, ringing the doorbell once, maybe twice because that would have tickled Arthur…

Laura: I don’t think there’s any hope here, honestly. I think Vernon would have been ticked off if they showed up on the doorstep ringing the doorbell because of how they looked, right?

Eric: Oh, right.

Laura: There was no way that the Weasleys could have arrived here and met Vernon and Petunia’s standards because Vernon and Petunia are already predisposed to hate them on the basis of them being wizards, so I think there was nothing they could have done right.

Andrew: What if they went to Target ahead of time and bought some average Muggle clothes?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, Target!

Laura: Would they know how to wear them?

Andrew: [laughs] What?

Laura: I mean, think about some of the examples we hear about wizards trying to don Muggle attire for the first time. We see it at the Quidditch World Cup, a gentleman wearing the the long nightgown, which there’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s very clear that he’s very enamored with this idea. And he talks about liking a “healthy breeze ’round his privates.” There’s just a degree to which I think the Weasleys do not know enough about Muggles to be able to meet the Dursleys’ standards.

Andrew: Laura, I just had an idea for you. So on our other podcast Millennial, you and Pam picked a wardrobe for me because I hate shopping. You can go wherever you want online, ASOS, H&M, whatever, and find outfits for Arthur and Molly! Muggle outfits.

Laura: That’s a good idea! Oh man. Maybe that’s a bonus we can do before the end of the year.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That’s a hell of a cool, fun idea.

Laura: Like, styling the Weasleys in Muggle clothes. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. Well, I will bring up that in this chapter – while we’re on the subject of fashion – Vernon tells Harry, “I’ve seen what you people wear.” He’s referring to the first chapter of the first book of Harry Potter, a throwback to Sorcerer’s Stone, when he’s just going to work the day after Voldemort’s fall, so November 1 of ’80, and he is clearly so scarred by this little man in a cloak that comes up to him and says, “Oh, Muggles like you should be happy, da-da-da…” that Vernon 13 years later is is still like, “That man, his fashion sucked,” to Harry. [laughs] “You people don’t dress properly.” So you’re right, I think, Laura. Although we don’t assign winners in “What if?”, I completely agree that it might just be an impossible situation and that they never could get along.

Laura: Yeah, the Dursleys just aren’t reachable.

Micah: And I think that’s it, right, Laura, to the point that you raised earlier. There’s nothing that Arthur can do that is going to please the Dursleys. It’s just a no-win situation. If things had gone differently, we would just be having a different conversation about how the Dursleys are just so prejudiced and biased against the wizarding world. So one odd and end I just wanted to bring up – because I know we talked about it in the previous chapter and we talked about it in this discussion with Dudley and his addiction to sweets – in particular, there’s some fat-shaming going on as it relates to Vernon, because he is referenced as being an enraged hippo at one point in this chapter. I think it’s when the ornaments are starting to fly. But I mean, that’s a pretty strong comparison on the part of the author to reference Vernon as a hippo.

Laura: Yeah, and we see this a lot with the Dursleys in this book. I mean, last episode, the chapters we were talking about referred to Dudley as being roughly the size and shape of the of a baby killer whale. There’s that. And then in this chapter, there’s lots of descriptions of Dudley clutching his fat bottom to try and shield it from a potential round two of the pig tail…

Micah: And the pig itself is a reference.

Laura: Yeah, right. 100%. There’s also this moment where Dudley tries to hide behind Vernon but even Vernon is not large enough to completely shield Dudley from view, so yeah, there’s a lot of this happening in the chapter. And again, thinking about it in the context of the time, I remember reading this and just feeling like the whole chapter was so comical. And it is really interesting to think about it in the context of current days and also through the lens of an adult, because this is never something that I think an adult would think was funny.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: And now it’s time for MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And you know what? I didn’t think I’d be saying this ever: I’m going to give it to Dudley because he’s taking a lot of crap unfairly. And you know what? He deserves a treat and a sweet.

Eric: [laughs] I’m going to give it to the implied Reparo charm that Arthur needs to use in overdrive to fix the mess he and his family have made and repair Muggle relations.

Laura: Well, speaking of that, I’m going to give mine to Arthur for sticking up for Harry and really observing how abnormal and childish and rude it is for his adult caretakers to not wish him a happy school year.

Micah: And I’m going to give it to the Dursleys’ living room because it just didn’t sign up for this.

[Everyone laughs]

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Andrew: That might be my favorite one ever. If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can contact us by emailing or sending a voice memo recorded on your phone to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can use our phone number, which is 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. That said, we would prefer the voice memos because they are of higher clarity. And next week will be our Quizzitch Live episode. Wow, already. It’s going to be in place of a normal episode, and you can test your skills as they pertain to OWLs and Halloween. And then the following week, bring your pink cardigans and cozy up – [laughs] who wrote this? – to an all girls MuggleCast, and then regular Chapter by Chapter segments return November 14 at our new Thursday night time slot, November 9 on NBC! TGIT.

Eric: Wow. That’s 9, 8 Central.

Andrew: [sings] On NBC.


Quizzitch


Andrew: And now it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question, “What does Arthur Weasley ask Dudley Dursley?” And the correct answer is, “Are you having a nice holiday, Dudley? And how is your summer?” Correct answers were submitted – here we go – by Dumbledorky porky dorks; Hi to my Ravenclaw husband; Andrew’s frustration at increasingly unhinged names…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … Justice for Winky; I am actually a Gryffindor, roar; Some terrific radiant humble Dudley; Mega-Mutilation Parts 1 and 2…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: … Eric, I am definitely not your father; Oh great master of the universe, bestow upon me Quizzitch answers; I think of parrots; A flimsy substandard cauldron bottom and a suspicious looking rug; Laura, the master of the universe has gone to the side of the trash pandas…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … Percy accidentally Floo Powdering to Number 4 Private Drive in Ohio; and – three more – Andrew the undercover Harry Potter Store worker hacker; Ravenkell; and Julia the 36-year-old. Shout-out to being 36. Okay.

Laura: Yeah, keep ’em coming, y’all. I love it. [laughs]

Micah: Love it, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Here is next week’s question.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: In honor of this past chapter, “Back to the Burrow,” how many times did Harry physically visit the Burrow during the seven-book Harry Potter series? Count them up.

[Quizzitch music ends]

Micah: You’ve got three weeks for this one.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s true. If you want to do a reread of the seven Harry Potter books, go ahead. Submit your answer to us on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, or click on “Quizzitch” from the top of the main nav.

Andrew: Do you enjoy MuggleCast? Do you think other Muggles would too? Tell a friend about the show. We would also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. Also, don’t forget we couldn’t do this show without your support on Patreon and through Apple Podcasts. Visit Patreon.com to support the show financially and you’ll receive early access to the show, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, yearly physical gifts, and so much more. Whether you pledge through Patreon or Apple Podcasts, we do have free trials and annual subscriptions available. And one more reminder, Eric just mentioned it: Visit MuggleCast.com for transcripts, social media links, our full episode archive, our favorite episodes, the Quizzitch form, and to contact us. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody!

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #631

 

MuggleCast 631 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #631, Mmmm, Grapefruit and Floor Cake (GOF Chapters 2 & 3, The Scar and The Invitation)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week, grab your painkillers and your postage stamps, because this week we’re talking about Goblet of Fire Chapters 2 and 3, “The Scar” and “The Invitation.” Yes, two chapters this week, because Chapter 2 is kind of just a recap chapter. We’ll have thoughts on that coming up. But first, a couple of announcements. One of them pretty big and very new. Laura, would you like to share some very cool news with our audience?

Laura: Yeah, really excited to chat about this. So we’re making history here at the show in the next week or so.

Andrew: “Herstory,” you could say.

Laura: [laughs] Right, “herstory.” So in the next couple of weeks, we’re going to be working on some show content, as well as some content for our Patreon, that is a girls’ takeover. So this is going to be a first for the show, an episode with a panel of all women. So it’ll be myself, Chloé, who is our social media manager, and friends of the pod Pam from over at Millennial, and Meg, who has also been a contributor to MuggleCast, just both by being on the show but also by helping us with our transcripts, as Eric plugged last week. We’re super excited to do this because we’re going to be able to look at female relationships in Harry Potter as well as the different types of female representation that you see or maybe don’t see in Harry Potter. And I’m so excited for us to be able to talk about this through the lenses of having grown up being young girls starting out reading Harry Potter, and growing up with the series. So I think similar to how we on this panel have had new revelations as we’ve gotten older, I think that we’re going to be able to put a really unique lens on our interpretation. Patrons are going to be able to join the girls twice. So we will be recording the girls’ takeover episode on Thursday, October 19 at 6:30 p.m. Eastern time. So if you’re a patron, you would be able to join us for that livestream. That episode will later be released on Tuesday, November 7. However, patrons get to join us a second time for a sleepover party on Patreon Saturday, October 21 at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time. This will replace the Slug Club hangout for the month, but this is a really fun one because the sleepover is open to all $5 patrons and up, so if you’re Dumbledore’s Army and up, you are invited. It’s definitely slumber party-themed, so wear your pajamas, bring those PJs, and bring your favorite beverage of choice. Look forward to that. I am stoked. Want to be sure to give a plug to Chloé here; This was really her idea. And we’re so fortunate to be able to have Pam and Meg joining us because they are members of the MuggleCast family and it’s just great to get us together as a panel.

Eric: What I’m excited about is that unlike Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald, this all-girls MuggleCast episode will likely pass the Bechdel Test.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yes! I think it will. Actually, maybe that’s a goal we can set, at least for a timed portion of the episode.

Eric: Well, it’s women talking about women. That sounds awesome. It sounds fantastic.

Laura: I know, I agree. I’m not going to sit here and say that a male character is not going to come up in the scope of the conversation, but the focus definitely passes the Bechdel Test. You’re right, Eric.

Micah: Where I thought, Eric, you were going, is [laughs] just for me, what I love about it is I don’t have to record that week.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: You get a week off! This is fantastic.

Micah:: No, but it’s going to be great.

Eric: Laura, can non-girls attend the sleepover party?

Laura: Yes! Everyone’s invited.

Eric: Okay, that’s all patrons. But the girls’ MuggleCast, we can’t show up.

Andrew: By design. I mean, you can listen live if you want.

Laura: Yeah, you can be in the audience if you want. You’re welcome to be in the audience and sound off in the Discord.

Eric: Nice. I’m excited for it. It’s going to be great.

Andrew: Yeah. So again, that’ll be out for everybody Tuesday, November 7. And we’ll have more posts about that coming on social media. Speaking of special episodes of the show, Micah, we’ve got another special event coming up, right?

Micah: Yeah, we just keep keep on hitting everybody with these fun things that we’re doing. So Quizzitch Live is going to be making its return on October 28, and given it’s so close to Halloween, we’re going to do a couple of segments that are focused on Halloween. So we’re going to do wizarding world candy, and we’re going to do some questions on James and Lily Potter, just given the significance of Halloween in their lives, but the main crux of Quizzitch this time around is going to be OWLs edition, so make sure specifically that you study up on your Charms, Potions, Defense Against the Dark Arts, and Transfiguration. And thank you in advance to Nicole H., who provided these questions for us; it cut down on a lot of the work that we have to do in advance. But we’re really looking forward to it. This is something I know we’ve talked about. We popularized it during the pandemic, but it’s something that we know the listeners have really gotten to love. And we’re excited to bring it back. And of course, there will be prizes.

Eric: We always get a great turnout to these things. And also worth mentioning, all the previous Quizzitch Lives are on YouTube. You can still enjoy all of the work that went into our previous live trivia events in preparation for this month.

Andrew: Including a Halloween one. There’s a Halloween one up there, so this is a second Halloween Quizzitch. And they’re a lot of fun for us to run as well, so we’re all looking forward to that. And that’ll be out for everybody on October 31. But like Micah said, the event itself will be October 28, and more details to come there as well. And lastly, a little show announcement. This is especially for patrons: MuggleCast live recordings are going to be moving to Thursdays beginning November 9 at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. That will be our new time, Thursdays 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Episodes will still be out at the normal time the following week, but we’re moving off the weekends. We’re moving to prime time; we’re going to be competing against Friends on NBC and Seinfeld and whatever the…

Eric: The Bachelor.

Micah: Thursday night football, bro.

Andrew: Thursday night football! But yeah, just a little update there for patrons. And a reminder real quick: Laura mentioned it, Eric, but we now have transcripts rockin’ and rollin’ on the site, right?

Eric: Yeah, we announced them last week, but already, the most recent four episodes of MuggleCast all have transcripts that are published, if people are looking for it. Reason I mention this, too, is because we got some feedback on our Goblet of Fire commentary episode; happened to see a message come in going, “There’s so much silence between when you guys talk, how am I supposed to listen to this?” And of course, we had to listen. The commentary goes along with the movie; you can’t edit that to be shorter pauses or it won’t align with the movie. So I say to that person, read the transcript. It’s now online.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: If you’re interested. And everyone else who’s never, ever complained about that, awesome. We love you more.

Andrew: Yeah, the commentary tracks are very much intended to be paired with the movie. We definitely acknowledge that you can’t really listen to it without the movie. But that’s why we do these few and far between.

Eric: Yeah, well, that said, I thought that this particular commentary track was a loopy fun good time and is worth a read.

Andrew: Oof, yeah, that gin got to me pretty quick, I will say.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: It was the perfect intro to get into the Goblet of Fire chats that we are now having.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Oh, and what a beautiful transition. So this week we’re discussing Chapters 2 and 3 of Goblet of Fire, “The Scar” and “The Invitation.” And we are going to do two seven-word summaries this week, and we’re going to go back to one of Micah’s ideas from a few months ago. It’ll just be Eric and I doing this seven-word summary, and then Micah and Laura will take the next chapter. So you ready for this teamwork, Eric?

Eric: Yes.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Andrew: Dumbledore…

Eric: … sometimes…

Andrew: … is…

Eric: … on…

Andrew: [laughs] … the…

Eric: … beach…

Andrew: [laughs] … relaxing.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Andrew: Wow. Okay, so… good. I have no further comment. Good. [laughs]

Eric: All right. We did it. We summarized this chapter.

Micah: Great job, guys.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Yes, I guess you’re right, Eric. Not much happens in this chapter. This is a recap chapter. It is a chapter, Eric, that if you had made it to – last week you were talking about how you read Chapter 1 of Goblet of Fire

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … and you hadn’t read any other Harry Potter books and you were like, “What is this? I’m out.” If you had gotten to this chapter, maybe you would have continued reading the book. Do you think that’s fair to say?

Eric: It’s really hard to say because this chapter then… where we were like, “Oh, thank God, there’s no recap in this book” – this is just recap. And the writing is still a little hokey; Harry is picturing his friends in his head, what they would say to his thing, and downplaying his own misery and suffering. And I don’t know, it’s really hard to say because this is also not your standard “Action happens” chapter. Maybe when I was in seventh grade, I wanted an “Action happens” chapter. So this was still not that. And it’s possible that I should just say, “You know what, it wasn’t for me in the year 2000. It wouldn’t be until 2001 that I would like Harry Potter.”

Andrew: Micah, I know you feel like this chapter is in line with something we’ve heard over the years.

Micah: A bit. We’ve heard over the years that the author felt very rushed, in terms of writing Goblet of Fire. And in a chapter like this, I thought that that came through maybe the first time or the second, or before even learning this, right? Before we ever even heard that she felt rushed writing Goblet of Fire. Maybe you just page through it; it’s a quick recap chapter. But with that in the back of our minds, as we move through this book it’ll be interesting to note moments where maybe the plot feels a little bit rushed, or there’s chapters that just… 2 and 3 could really have been combined together into one chapter. There was no reason to have these as being two separate chapters. I know I called it a nothing burger of a chapter.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But it really is. If you’re a Harry Potter fan that has read the first three books, it’s nice to get a little bit of a refresher, but it doesn’t move the needle for you really at all.

Eric: It’s not an “Action happens” chapter.

Laura: It also feels very out-of-step with the pacing of the chapter that came before it. I had forgotten about this, but reading this chapter immediately after “The Riddle House” feels so jarring. Like, we have this really great mystery being set up, it’s macabre, and there’s little breadcrumbs being dropped throughout, and you’re trying to figure out what everything means. And then it’s like, “Previously on Harry Potter…”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: And yet, it is the obligatory… if the book itself didn’t have these little things about “Voldemort killed Harry’s parents” and “Sirius Black was his godfather,” you would be lost, by the wayside, right? As a non-recurring… saying people made it past the first chapter, which I did not. You do need these little breadcrumbs, right, to understand the overall story?

Micah: You do. I do like what Laura is saying, though, because right in the first chapter of Goblet of Fire, you get the payoff from the ending of Prisoner of Azkaban, which is Pettigrew and Voldemort together, master and servant reunited, and then it just completely drops off and the action isn’t there. But one of the things I did, I went to an interview that the author did shortly after Goblet of Fire was released, and there are some interesting quotes here I thought we could talk about. She says, “The first three books, my plan never failed me. But I should have put that plot under a microscope. I wrote what I thought was half the book, and ‘Ack!’ Huge gaping hole in the middle of the plot.” She’s referring to Goblet of Fire. “I missed my deadline by two months. And the whole profile of the books got so much higher since the third book; there was an edge of external pressure.” Now, there’s also the movies to consider here that are in development, and how fast that she is writing in comparison to the movies being filmed and ultimately released. She had to keep up with that.

Andrew: Well, and I think, also, her publishers were probably pushing her as well. And I seem to recall that after this book, she started to work on her own timeline. She was like, “I need to work on my own schedule; when it’s done, it’s done.” And that’s why we ended up seeing a three-year wait between 4 and 5.

Eric: Yeah, and I mean, if you think about it, even just the fact that the first three Harry Potter books came out a year from each other, and the fourth book did the same… the fourth book is twice as long page count-wise. That shows you. That’s everything you ever need to know about how stressful this must have been. And yet, the book still turns out really, really, really good. She was still, I think, at her peak capacity for world building, plot building, character threading… it’s all just really good stuff.

Andrew: Also, in doing research for starting Chapter by Chapter of this book, I read that she also decided on the title very late. Do y’all remember that? Very late.

Laura: I do remember.

Micah: Wasn’t it The Doomspell Tournament?

Andrew: And then she changed it to Goblet of Fire. That speaks to the point that we’re making here that there was only a year in between these, in between 3 and 4, and how quick the turnaround was. Do you want to read this other quote too?

Micah: Yeah, one other quote that came from this interview. This is a more indirect reference to the plot hole that was mentioned in the previous quote. She says that, “I had to pull a character. There you go: ‘the Phantom character of Harry Potter.’ She was a Weasley cousin (related to Ron Weasley, Harry’s best friend). She served the same function that Rita Skeeter (a sleazy investigative journalist) now serves. Rita was always going to be in the book, but I built her up because I needed a kind of conduit for information outside of the school. Originally, this girl fulfilled this purpose.”

Andrew: That would have been fun. A Weasley cousin like funneling information in and out of Hogwarts, it sounds like.

Laura: And am I remembering this correctly that this Weasley cousin was supposed to have been a Slytherin?

Eric: I don’t remember this.

Micah: It seems familiar.

Laura: Yeah, I feel like I remember this being the case, which would have fit in really well with how Slytherins are being characterized at this point in time of writing these books.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: But it would have also been an interesting take to see a Slytherin Weasley.

Andrew: Well, turning back to the chapter now, it opens with Harry trying to recall what he had seen in his dream and his scar hurting. And as we said last episode, this was the first time he actually has a direct line of communication with Voldemort. It’s definitely concerning. And we’ll get into that in a second, in terms of how Harry handles it from here, but Laura, I think you wanted to talk about the point of view. Where was that connection exactly? What was it offering him?

Laura: Yeah, so I thought that the point of view here is interesting because Harry is not seeing it from Voldemort’s point of view. He’s seeing it as an observer, which we know doesn’t quite fit with how their mind connection works. We see later on in the series that Harry will see something from Nagini’s point of view. There was at least once where he saw things from Voldemort’s point of view, and he even distinctly remembered the feeling of uttering that cold, conniving laugh. But here, he’s like a fly on the wall. So I was wondering if this was just a case of this particular plot point not being fully fleshed out yet.

Micah: Like the author was rushed?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, like the author was rushed. Or also just that the Horcrux mind connection between the two of them just wasn’t fully fleshed out yet. That had not been fully conceived of yet. But you had an interesting headcanon, Micah.

Micah: Well, you mentioned Nagini and how Harry sees things through her perspective, right? Probably the best example is in Order of the Phoenix when he tells Dumbledore, “No, I was the snake attacking Arthur Weasley.” And I was curious if perhaps, as you mentioned the last episode, Laura, Nagini is a narc in this particular moment.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: She could just be hanging out on the landing behind Frank Bryce, waiting for her moment to slither into the room. Could Harry be seeing this through her perspective, very early on, and he just doesn’t know it? And I think it’s a mix of what we’ve all been talking about. I don’t think the Horcrux connection has been fully fleshed out; we see it obviously in Order of the Phoenix. But yeah, I thought that could have been a cool theory to throw out there.

Eric: I love it.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. Honestly, it’s ambiguous where his point of view is coming from, enough that I think we can declare canon, honestly. I love this.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: On what, all of it?

Laura: Yeah, on Harry seeing this from Nagini’s point of view, even though it’s…

Andrew: “It’s true, all of it.”

Eric: Well, it talks about… what, the Dark Side? The Force? It’s all true.

[“I declare canon!” sound effect plays with thunder]

Eric: Ooh, sounds like Chicago out there.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The example given in the book is that Harry has seen what Voldemort currently looks like, and that’s not possible if the dream is coming through Voldemort’s eyes the way that Harry later experiences Death Eater meetings between Voldemort and the group.

Laura: Right.

Eric: So Nagini being able to see Wormtail and Voldemort and the Muggle… the Nagini perspective is my favorite headcanon now.

Laura: Yeah, same.

Eric: Even though he is not conscious of being in a body of a snake like he is later, where he feels moving around. So the Horcrux connection is either just getting started, and is weak enough that Harry doesn’t feel snaky… I think that that’s all very reasonable. And then the other aspect is the last chapter has a lot of backstory, too, of the war and Little Hangleton and Great Hangleton, and it’s not like Harry is getting that history lesson in his dream. Harry’s dream probably picked up closer to the time when Frank arrives inside the Riddle House.

Andrew: Another line we wanted to call out here. And again, this is a recap chapter. This line… I think we all read this and thought the same thing. The line goes, “Harry was used to bizarre accidents and injuries; they were unavoidable if you attended Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry,” basically admitting, midway through the series, the whole school is a what?

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Laura: This story is being told by a third-person omniscient narrator, right? Who has access to all of Harry’s thoughts and feelings. But it’s very clear that there are points where the author’s perspective comes through, and I think we see that in the next chapter, especially around some of the comments made about Dudley, where it’s like, “Okay, so not only does Harry know this, but the author is acknowledging it too.” Security nightmare.

Andrew: So then Harry starts wondering how Dumbledore, Ron, and Hermione would react to being informed that his scar was hurting. And he does think that Hermione and Ron would be concerned. And while he does suspect that Dumbledore is on a beach over the summer holidays, he doesn’t think about how Albus would actually respond to the news that his scar was hurting. So I’m wondering… and we’re dropping all the sound effects this morning.

[“What if?” sound effect plays]

Andrew: What if Harry did tell Dumbledore that his scar was hurting? How would Albus have responded? And I hope that he would have come home from the beach and maybe started teaching him Occlumency… or maybe not because I also think that Dumbledore – I think we’ve discussed on the show – Dumbledore likes that open connection to an extent, so he can see what the Dark side is up to.

Eric: I definitely think that if Harry had told Dumbledore anything about his dream or the fact that his scar hurt, it would have put Dumbledore on slightly better footing to anticipate the year ahead. Dumbledore is often on pretty good footing, it’s true, in regards to what Voldemort is up to and what Voldemort is doing, but I think it would have resulted in at least a follow-up conversation between Dumbledore and Harry. Maybe at start of term – maybe he wouldn’t have shown up on Privet Drive that night to ask him follow-up questions – but I think that Dumbledore really would have wanted to know what Voldemort was talking about in Harry’s dream. And I think you’re right, Andrew, to bring up Occlumency. I think even though he’s trying to foster that connection and wants to leave it open a little bit, there might be certain little things that he would help Harry with in case it happened again, or he would try and prompt them to happen again. He would maybe try and increase that connection, so that he could essentially do what he does at the end of the book, bring back the Order of the Phoenix, prepare for softening Fudge’s position on Voldemort coming back. If Harry even lets the word slip, like “Bertha Jorkins,” then Dumbledore immediately knows more than Fudge about what happened to her and can begin to really unravel the plot. So I think Harry should have told Dumbledore.

Andrew: And Dumbledore does say later in the series that he knew there was a connection between Harry and Voldemort as early as Harry’s first year at Hogwarts, and he did suspect a connection by the end of Chamber of Secrets. He should already be concerned. And I guess he would be further concerned if he heard about what was happening here. At least give Harry some lessons in pain management or something like that so he doesn’t have to deal with the headaches.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Similar to what Eric said about Dumbledore being on better footing for handling the events of the year, I just think that if Dumbledore knew about this and knew about Harry’s dream, he might have foreseen what would come out of the Goblet of Fire. He might have put two and two together there.

Micah: Definitely. And the thing with Harry when he wakes up is that he goes through what most of us go through in that he doesn’t remember everything, right? And Eric, I don’t know if this is what you were getting at. Is there some kind of magic that can be utilized to show the full scope of the dream? Especially if he’s reaching out to somebody like Dumbledore, whose magical ability is… he can do pretty much anything. And this is also the first time Harry has gone through something like this, right? So he’s probably pretty scared. I don’t know. I felt for him. I feel like we’ve all been in that situation where we experience something and then we’re not really sure if we should tell anybody, and then if we should, who do we tell, right? Is it our friends? Is it our parents? Is it somebody else who can help us out?

Andrew: Like a family member, maybe!

Eric: “Oh, wait! I have a new Godfather!”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: But yeah, I’ll say that Harry’s self doubt… you’re exactly right, Micah, we’ve all gone through it. But ultimately, it’s a new way of seeing how the scar works. Because Harry is like, “The last time my scar hurt, Voldemort was right in front of me. He couldn’t be right in front of me now, could he?” And it’s like, “No, listener, no, reader, he couldn’t be, but he was pretty much right in front of you Horcrux-wise.” The connection is now so intimate that from thousands of miles away, he can be in your head. It’s really fascinating. The scar is working, as it always has, to warn Harry or keep him safe in a way. And it goes back to what Dumbledore said in Chapter 1 of Book 1: “Scars can be useful.” We’re getting a new version, a new understanding, about what Harry’s scar is for and what it does.

Andrew: And also, because Harry is struggling to remember the details, telling Dumbledore is is a bit risky. Why waste Vacation Dumbledore’s time with a dream you barely even remember?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: He’s having a good time. Dumbledore was nice enough to send us a photo for when he traveled back in Harry’s fourth year, and he is just living his best life. He looks like he’s out at a beach club. He’s indulging in a little bit of… I don’t know if we can say that on the show. But he’s cleansing his mind.

Eric: Huh.

Andrew: Micah recently found the AI image tools and he’s been having a lot of fun recently. So I alluded to this a couple minutes ago: Harry wishes he had a family member to tell about the dream and realizes he should reach out to his new BFF godfather Sirius about his scar hurting, and he sends out the letter in hopes of it finding Sirius in whatever seemingly tropical location he might be in because the birds that were delivering letters from Sirius were tropical of nature. We won’t end up getting a reply from Sirius until a couple of chapters later, but when we do eventually hear back from him, we learn that Sirius is concerned about the scar hurting, because it aligns with other strange things going on, and he’s heading north immediately to deal with the sitch. And this is without him knowing about the dream Harry had; remember in this chapter, Harry hesitates from telling him the details, just that his scar was hurting. So if Sirius heard all the details, that could have changed a lot of things, too, in terms of how the next few chapters played out.

Eric: This really speaks to Sirius’s need to be useful. He sees an opportunity here to… yes, he’s running from the law, yes, it’s a big deal that he doesn’t get caught, and self preservation and all that nonsense, but as soon as there’s an opportunity for Harry to be saved by him or given more info or just… he puts himself a little bit at risk by going back up north where there’s more wizards looking for him, and he does it to save or potentially help Harry with his situation. I just think that’s good godfather material.

Micah: And can we talk about the tropical birds for a second?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Just because I wonder…

Eric: Why, do you have more AI art?

Micah: Well, that’s another one we could work on after the show. But I was thinking, part of this is fun, right? Sirius is a fun character. He would do something like this just to make Harry smile. But part of me also wonders if it’s to annoy the Dursleys should they ever find out about it, right? Like, what in the world would a tropical bird be doing in Little Whinging? [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s true.

Micah: I don’t know. I found that to be a very fun moment.

Andrew: And very large, too, at least in the illustrated edition here. I’m holding it up now for the camera; you can see a very large tropical bird. And the Dursleys would not like that either.

Eric: The book says it can barely fit through the window. And I’m like, “What kind of tropical bird is this?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Like a toucan?

Laura: Yeah, the description was so vague. I distinctly remember reading this as a kid, and even to this day, the imagery I see is like, Toucan Sam [laughs] flying into Harry’s bedroom.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s basically what it’s looking like in the illustrated edition.

Eric: Or a pelican. [makes a pelican noise]

Andrew: And then last thing here, this is minor, but in his letter to Sirius Harry says Dudley could no longer play Mega-Mutilation Part 3 on PlayStation. Now, that’s a real console, of course, but that’s not a real game. J.K. Rowling has a tendency to be really lazy sometimes with naming. Mega-Mutilation? Sometimes she really rushes. And I did, of course, Google Mega-Mutilation, and…

Eric: [laughs] I wonder what your results were. Was safe search turned on?

Andrew: It was just Reddit threads saying, “Hey, is that a real game?” [laughs] Actually, the first one was a Reddit thread that says, “Mega-Mutilation Part 3? Really?”

Laura: I feel like it’s probably referencing fighting games, thinking about all the fighting games that were popular when we were kids. Like Street Fighter, I think. Oh, yeah, Kyle on the Discord is calling it out; Mortal Kombat would be maybe a closer connection. I think this is probably riffing off of that and also meant as a commentary about Dudley because of course he would want to play a game where he got to kill lots and lots of innocent bystanders. [laughs]

Micah: That’s where I was going. Exactly.

Andrew: I was also thinking that Harry was just making up a title, like he didn’t even know what game he was playing.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: Because he doesn’t… he just knows it’s a PlayStation, and Dudley wants to beat people up, like you two are saying. So, Mega-Mutilation Part 3. Kyle in our Discord is also bringing up: This is also one of the famous time errors in the series because the PlayStation wasn’t out in Europe yet in the time that this book was set, only in Japan. So he says, “You have to assume Vernon imported it for him,” which does sound like something Vernon would do for his dear boy, his dear only child. All right, well, that is the chapter and we’ll get to Chapter 3 in a moment.

Micah: [laughs] What a riveting chapter that was.

Andrew: We still had a good discussion about it.

Micah: We did.

Andrew: And you know what? I’m in the mood to feel cozy after a nice cozy chapter like that. Oh, and wouldn’t you know it?


[MeUndies ad break]


Micah: You know who could use some MeUndies?

Andrew: Who?

Micah: Vernon Dursley.

Andrew: [laughs] With a fun avocado toast print on them. I can see it now.

Micah: Grapefruit.

Andrew: Grapefruit? Sure.

Laura: Yeah, that’s his breakfast of… well, not choice, but the breakfast that he is given now.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, so Micah, Laura, you ready for your seven-word summary duo edition?

Laura: Yes.

Micah:

Andrew: One-on-one edition, let’s call it. Here we go.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Laura: Molly…

Micah: … tries…

Laura: … to…

Micah: … save…

Laura: … Harry’s…

Micah: … summer…

Laura: … funnily.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Because I’m thinking about the stamps.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Andrew: Chapter 3, “The Invitation.” So Harry receives an invitation to go to the Quidditch World Cup with the Weasleys and spend a couple weeks with them at the Burrow in advance of the big event. What a nice invite. But as is always the case, Vernon, now in his MeUndies, is allergic to anything to do with the wizarding world. And when Harry pitches the invitation to Vernon, he replies, “How many times do I have to tell you not to mention that unnaturalness under my roof?” And reading this line, the way the Dursleys and Vernon in particular treats being a wizard just reeked to me of how a homophobic person reacts to an LGBTQ person or family member. It’s just like, “I don’t want to hear it, I don’t want to think it, I don’t want it to even be implied or seen in any manner in this house.” And it’s a nice reminder to me that sometimes you need to find your own chosen family, like Harry does when he’s viewed as an outcast. And obviously, at this point Harry really does have his own chosen family, including the one he just received an invitation from.

Eric: Yeah, by Book 4 it shows us that this relationship is not going to get better between Harry and his relatives. It’s a pretty safe bet because right now we see Harry leverage the connection with his ex-con godfather to just get some basic necessities like food, or rather, their permission to be able to do his school-booking at night. So I just think that it’s clear, especially by now, that you’re right, Andrew, these are the wrong people for Harry, they are not his… they’re his family but not his found family. He needs to find better people who do better and surround himself with them.

Micah: Definitely, and Harry… this moment that you’re calling out, Andrew, was towards the tail end of the conversation, but Harry was very strategic in how he was speaking to Vernon throughout most of that conversation; he was tiptoeing around saying certain words or certain phrases. And not only does Vernon react this way… like, he looks to the window to make sure that there’s nobody that could potentially hear what Harry has said, so he’s completely paranoid.

Laura: Yeah. I also was thinking about the comparison you made, Andrew, about the Dursleys really reacting the same way that a homophobic person would react to an LGBTQ+ person, and it made me remember the fact that the Dursleys literally forced Harry to live in a closet for the first 11 years of his life, so that’s just another added layer of interpretation that we can put on this. But I also could see us taking it broader and saying it’s reflective of how prejudiced people in general react to anything that doesn’t meet their standards of normality.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, Vernon is asking followup questions about this letter that arrives, including, “Who is this woman that sent it?” But then when Harry tells her, he insults Molly, and then he asks, “What is Quizzitch?” Or… [laughs] What is Quidditch? Sorry, I’ve never not going to be able to…

Micah: I do it all the time now too.

Andrew: [laughs] “Quizzitch is the trivia game from MuggleCast.”

Micah: It’s your fault, really.

Eric: It’s just so good. Thank you, Kyle, for giving us the gift of Quizzitch. He says, “What is Quidditch?” And Harry tells him, and he says [makes spluttering noises], “What is this rubbish?” It’s like, you’re asking questions, but not coming from a place of caring or really listening. Vernon is just trying to make sure that it doesn’t affect him, that he doesn’t have to get anywhere near it.

Micah: Yeah, and there’s also… you were mentioning Molly, that he references her as a dumpy sort of a woman…

Andrew: Ugh.

Micah: … and Harry notes how that is comical coming from somebody like Vernon, but it just shows you the lack of self-awareness that the Dursleys have. And we’re going to talk more about that when we get to Dudley and everything that he’s going through, but they’re just so caught up in themselves that they can’t really see their own true reflection in the mirror.

Laura: Yeah, it’s also reflective of a double standard that often gets applied to women. So again, Micah, you calling out that it’s comical that someone like Vernon would call someone like Molly a “dumpy sort of woman,” but the reality is society reinforces that perspective, that it’s more acceptable for a man to have that sort of physical appearance than for a woman to have it.

Eric: Yeah, he’s just stout, he’s portly, he’s…

Micah: He eats well.

Laura: Right. He’s big-boned.

Andrew: Yeah. The double standard point is such a good one, too, and I mean, we see that all the time. And look, I’m guilty of it too; everybody talks crap on other people when they’ve got their own problems as well. It’s just like, deflection, deflection, deflection.

Micah: But it’s not like we would expect Vernon to say anything nice about Molly in the first place, so this is not surprising.

Andrew: Right, right.

Micah: The one thing I did want to call out about the letter that the Dursleys receive: It has a million stamps on it. It’s meant to be funny for us as readers. It’s very similar to when Ron calls Harry in the previous book, right? I think it’s an oversight on the part of the Weasleys. Ron says that they have no clue how normal mail works, but given Arthur’s job, shouldn’t they?

Laura: Yeah, and I remember us asking about this when Ron didn’t know how to use the telephone either. [laughs] It just feels so out of place that Arthur wouldn’t be able to offer some knowledge. Also, Ron’s best friend is Muggle-born. It’s pretty easy to figure this out, buddy.

Eric: Do your research. Ask Hermione. I think where Molly errs is saying, “Send a reply to this in the normal way.” That is a value judgment. That is a loaded sentence that is guaranteed to piss Uncle Vernon off.

Andrew: Yeah. And I just think logically speaking, who would say, “Okay, it is time to mail this. So how do I mail this? I know, I’ll put as many stamps as possible on the front of the envelope.” It just doesn’t make sense. Why would they do that? I know they’re like, “Oh, Muggles are nuts, so they probably would do something like this,” but no, just no. I’m insulted.

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I can understand the confusion because depending on what you’re mailing, where you’re mailing it to, sometimes you do need multiple stamps. You don’t need quite this many, not as many as Molly uses, but it makes me wonder if Arthur maybe only has a passing knowledge of how the Postal Service works and was like, “Yeah, I don’t know how many stamps you’re going to need, but sometimes you need more than one, so just put a bunch on there to be safe.”

Micah: But where’d they get them from? They had to go to the post office. [laughs]

Laura: I know.

Eric: Well, there’s that. Yeah, I don’t know. Again, I said that Molly kind of shoots herself in the foot by the wording that she uses in the letter, but the idea of an invitation being sent to the Dursleys more formally is actually kind of a good idea in its outset. The execution we can all agree is awful. But think about it; she’s entreating them. She’s like, “Hey, we love your nephew. We would love to invite him for this very special once-in-a-lifetime event.” It’s a perfectly, in some levels, polite and appropriate thing to have done.

Micah: And can you fault Vernon in this case? If I were the mailman, I would think it was strange that it had all these stamps on it. We’ve got a kooky old grandma that doesn’t know how to mail you a letter the right way. [laughs]

Eric: Right, right. And the mailman is not coming from a place of malice, it’s just interest, but Vernon does not want to stand out. The books are very clear on Vernon and Petunia’s – which, by the way, where is she? – stance on this whole kind of thing.

Micah: It’s just Vernon not wanting anybody to think anything unnatural of him or his family. That’s what it comes down to. He’s afraid the mailman is going to report him to the post office or something.

Andrew: The post office? [laughs]

Micah: Ruh-roh.

Laura: I were that mailman, I would assume that it was some kind of prank or inside joke. Nobody’s going to go back to their superior and be like, “I delivered a really weird letter today.” Who cares?

Andrew: Right. I’m sure they’ve seen it before from Muggles sending to Muggles just for fun; like, a kid would do that. That seems like something a kid would do. Micah said, we did jump ahead a little bit here. As we read the chapter, Harry is laying out Vernon’s conundrum about letting Harry go to the Cup/the Weasleys or not, and Harry sees it as… he looks at both sides of the situation for Vernon. The pro side Harry is no longer in the house. The downside for Vernon is that Harry will get what he wants, and he doesn’t want that. And his evil godfather will know that Vernon is telling him no, he can’t go, and then Sirius is going to come and kill him or something like that. [laughs] But one thing that Harry doesn’t keep in mind here that I thought was interesting: I would think Vernon is also considering the fact that Harry always gets his way. Year one, the letters inviting him to Hogwarts arrive come hell or high water. No matter where they run, those letters come. Year two, his friends bail him out with a flying car. Year three, his magic pushed him to extremes because he was being treated poorly. So if were Vernon, I’d be like, “I have to say yes,” because something bad is going to happen again. Maybe it’s something with Sirius, maybe not, but that would be my top consideration.

Eric: Right. Joke’s on him because something bad happens anyway. He does say yes, and they still end up with their living room destroyed. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, so maybe he needs to learn “Say yes and get him out quick before some wizards come over.” So let’s move on to what’s going on in terms of the diet at the Dursleys’ house. Dudley is on this diet and Vernon and Petunia are in on the program as well to support their dear boy. Harry, meanwhile… well, and Harry is in on it too. However, Harry is hiding a bunch of wizarding treats up in his room, and I was wondering… Dudley is surely desperate for the good stuff. The real candy, the sugary sweets, all the unhealthy stuff. Would Dudley have wanted to become a wizard if Harry secretly gave him some of those delicious wizarding desserts? I have to think Dudley is absolutely hating this healthy diet; he would do anything to get back to cake and all that. This could have been a bonding moment.

Micah: It could have. I don’t know if he necessarily would have gone the wizard route, although I’m sure there’s part of Dudley that thinks it’s cool that Harry is a wizard, even if he doesn’t admit it out loud. But I do think this could have been a perfect opportunity for Harry to form some sort of relationship with Dudley, right? He has all of this good food for Dudley to eat; Dudley would be over the moon if he could get his hands on some cookies or some cake. But I think it’s also how Dudley has treated Harry over the years and he doesn’t want any of it.

Eric: I think that there’s a great, non-zero possibility that Dudley would have seen Harry having sweets and turned him in for good favor to the other Dursleys, because remember, one of the few – I know, what a narc thing to do; he’s worse than Nagini…

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But one of the only things that keeps Dudley sane during this time is that Petunia is starving Harry even more by giving him a smaller grapefruit wedge for breakfast or lunch or whatever it is. So I think that Dudley has been raised to think of himself as better than, and so he would take whatever Harry could offer but then immediately turn him in or still find some way to not be 100% doing of the right thing, if Harry were to confide in Dudley that he has this secret birthday cake.

Andrew: I think the Dursleys would have rewarded him with a sweet for reporting the sweets, an eye for an eye.

Micah: Ooh.

Laura: I think Dudley would have stolen all of Harry’s treats, and told Harry, “Yeah, go and tell my parents whatever you want. Who do you think they’re going to believe, you or me?” Because if Harry went to the Dursleys and was like, “Yo, I had all this great birthday cake; he took all of it,” and he’s hiding it and stuffing it down his throat, he would just have to be like, “No, I didn’t do that, Mummy. Why would I do that?” And Petunia would be like, “Oh, my little diddy Dudley kins, you would never do that.” So they would probably punish Harry in some way by locking him in his bedroom or throwing him back in the cupboard under the stairs. I just don’t see this not backfiring on Harry.

Micah: It would have been an interesting test run for Harry to just leave Hagrid’s rock cakes outside of Dudley’s room and see what happened.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But I love that Harry does this. He sends out an APB for cake and food…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … to be sent to him from all of his friends all over the world.

Andrew: “Help me!”

Micah: But I’m curious, what is it? We talk about how poorly Harry is treated. You mentioned the smaller grapefruit wedge, but I’m just envisioning this kid going back to his room, closing the door, opening the floorboard, taking cake and whatever else he has there out to eat at 14 years old just so he can nourish himself properly. It’s a very sad set of circumstances.

Eric: Floor cake. Delicious. Who doesn’t want a piece of floor cake right now?

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, I have a question about this floor cake. How are all of these perishable food items lasting so long? It’s noted that Harry literally receives four birthday cakes in response to his plea for help, and he’s storing them… first of all, how big is this floorboard that he’s storing four birthday cakes and a host of other treats under there? But also, how long is this food lasting? And it made me wonder, is there some kind of charm to preserve food for extended periods of time so that wizards don’t have to worry about their food going bad?

Andrew: You would think so.

Eric: There probably is. But Harry can’t perform that charm; it would have… because that’ll flag the Ministry.

Andrew: No, but other people were making them, so…

Eric: Well, right, so he would have had to say, “Send me stuff and make sure that it can last a while,” that kind of thing… because I can go through four birthday cakes pretty quickly.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Before it expires, I’ve had to do that before.

Laura: But do you keep them under your floorboard, is the question.

Eric: No, and that’s the other thing. Look, there’s spiders and all sorts of friends that could come and eat that cake as well. How do you keep it…? There were spiders in Harry’s cupboard.

Laura: I know.

Andrew: Muggles have unfortunately perfected the art of preservatives, and I’m sure wizards could do something similar as well.

Laura: I’m sure. But I don’t know, I was reading about him keeping cake and stuff underneath the floorboards and I was like, “Do you want ants? Because that’s how you get ants, man.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Or can you give us some tips so that we can do that too? I’d love to keep some cake in my room.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Kyle pointed this out in the Discord as well, but what would the…? So Ron probably didn’t make the birthday cake himself, because the book says that he gets cake from Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, and Sirius. All send him cake. Ron did not bake that cake. I mean, maybe he did; maybe people are saying this is Ron assassination. But what would the request have looked like to Molly? For Ron to be like, “Harry is asking us to send food”? That would have… I think she would have dropped all pretense of propriety and not sent this lovely invitation to the Dursleys. It would have been another rescue mission, a Ford Anglia-involved-if-they-still-had-it kind of escape attempt. How did Ron either sneakily or otherwise convey to his family that Harry is asking for food? Because that’s a huge red flag.

Laura: Well, he does note in the letter that he sends Harry, “Ask the Muggles, and if they say yes, we’ll come get you tomorrow. If they say no, we’ll still come get you tomorrow.” So it’s clear that they’re still intending to come get him out. But I think after the events of two summers ago, Molly has taken the lead on planning this because she does not want her children to be breaking any laws to do this like they did a couple years ago.

Eric: Yeah. And Molly did send meat pies as well, so that’s… yeah.

Laura: Yeah, she did. While we’re telling you about food, though, I just want to call out as well that Dudley’s diet is very reflective of the toxic diet culture of the 1990s. A quarter of a grapefruit is not sufficient nutrition for anyone. [laughs]

Andrew: If I’m trying to defend the writing choice at the time, it’s to take a comical perspective on it. It’s exaggerated for comedic purposes, but yes. And I think there has been criticism, especially as time has gone on, that the author was being fatphobic at times in the series with how she describes the Dursleys.

Laura: Yeah, and I agree with that, but I actually don’t think this is fatphobic. I feel like this is a commentary on diet culture of the time, as I said, because there are legitimately – you can look it up – there are diets that have in the past, and in some cases still do, suggest these types of extreme measures that are not sustainable in the long term. And it just reminded me of a lot of the commercial advertisement that we saw around “Lose weight quick” diets, flash diets, and the kinds of extreme measures that people were encouraged to go to to drop weight quickly. And that’s what’s being put on Dudley here, right? Because the Dursleys aren’t educated about the right way to do this and the healthy way to do this, so they’re just trying to do it quick.

Andrew: I think all of us can still visualize the magazine covers at the food store checkout aisles, the promises they were making.

Laura: Yeah, “Lose 10 pounds in 30 days!” type stuff.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: I will say there is no reference, at least in this chapter, about Dudley engaging in any physical activity, which would help, certainly, with a lot of what he’s dealing with.

Eric: Well, right. I will say, although Laura said that that particular thing was not fat shaming or fatphobic, there is a lot in this chapter that is fat shaming and fatphobic. It may actually be the worst offender of every chapter in the Harry Potter books to be fat shaming. The level of comparisons that the narrator is drawing are really offensive to reread, and it’s just pretty egregious, looking back on it, like, “Wow, she actually just compared Dudley’s weight to that of a baby killer whale.” Like, really? How does Harry know what a baby killer whale weighs? It’s just for effect.

Micah: Well, and the fact that the school doesn’t have a uniform big enough for him, right? That’s also brought up in this chapter.

Andrew: And that’s why the school nurse makes the recommendation to Petunia.

Eric: It’s just something to be going on with the Dursleys, something that they are engaged with, so as to not give Harry their full attention. But it’s unfortunate, reading it back going, “Ooh.”

Laura: Yeah. And there’s that whole weird comment about “Dudley had finally achieved what he had been threatening to do since he was three years old, becoming wider than he was tall” or “as wide as he was tall.” And it’s like, what three-year-old is threatening to do that? [laughs] It was definitely an interesting choice.

Micah: Yeah, and I think we can apply what we’ve talked about as it relates to a lot of other characters to Dudley, that he’s a condition of Petunia and Vernon. He’s a reflection of how he’s being raised. And I think we see multiple times in this series how Petunia is just in complete denial about her son. And I wonder if she’s looking across the table and making comparisons to Harry, maybe much like her parents made comparisons between her and Lily. I think there’s definitely something that is going on psychologically with her, where she is just giving anything and everything to her son that he wants when he wants it, regardless of whether or not it’s healthy for him. And that’s both physical and mental health.

Eric: I do want to ask why Petunia was not present for the discussion about the letter because they they clearly dine together as a family, but Petunia, who would normally have a vested interest in keeping out of sight of the neighbors, is not present at all. Vernon handles the confrontation with Harry entirely on his own. And my theory about this – I want to know you guys’ thoughts – is that it might actually speak to a fracture in their relationship, that perhaps this diet that Petunia and Vernon are on is making it so that they’re not spending so much time together, that they’re actually going to different rooms in the house, which we’ve never seen before. The idea that Petunia is leading this charge and they have different ideas about how to raise Dudley, which I think is hinted at. What do we think? Do we think there’s some weight – “some weight” – to that theory?

Andrew: Yeah, I think so. I’ve always just kind of seen Petunia as taking a backseat here, too, when it comes to the decisions around Harry. But I do like that theory. I’m sure this diet program isn’t the best for a relationship in this house.

Eric: I do like your point about Petunia kind of checking out, almost for her own mental health. Like, “I can’t deal with the boy, Vernon.”

Andrew: Well, yeah, and because we know eventually that Petunia was jealous of Lily, so she also takes a backseat for that reason because she would probably be more lenient towards Harry, I think.

Micah: Do we make anything of the grapefruit? Do we think it’s symbolic in any way?

Andrew: Whoa.

Micah: What? [laughs]

Laura: Micah with the deep questions.

Andrew: In what way? [laughs] Have you researched grapefruit or something?

Eric: [laughs] It’s cleansing.

Micah: I don’t know. It’s generally more of a tart, sour type of food.

Eric: It’s not a fan favorite food.

Andrew: Like the Dursleys.

Laura: Well, I love grapefruit.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: No, you don’t. You’ve been conditioned by society to think that you like grapefruits, Laura. You don’t actually like them.

Andrew: That’s an episode title. “Laura loves grapefruit.”

Laura: I do. I’m looking at the benefits. It’s low in calories, high in nutrients, it may benefit your immune system, has weight loss benefits. That’s why they’re giving it to Dudley.

Micah: All right, maybe it’s the perception of it.

Eric: I will say, there’s a Weird Al song, “Grapefruit Diet.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You gotta listen to it.

Andrew: So a couple of smaller notes here. Pig makes his debut, Ron’s new owl, a scrawny little fella. I love him. I think he’s so cute.

Micah: Didn’t he show up at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban? Am I making this up?

Laura: Yeah, he did.

Andrew: He did. Was he named at the time?

Laura: No.

Micah: He wasn’t named, but why does Harry act like he’s never met him before?

Andrew: Maybe he’s in worse shape. [laughs]

Eric: That’s a great question, actually. Because that’s right, that might be a little…

Micah: No, no, Harry is acting like he’s seeing this thing for the first time. But the whole… remember, Ron takes him and lets Crookshanks sniff him. It definitely was at the end of the last book.

Andrew: Look, sometimes you forget somebody – or some creature. It happens.

Laura: There are certain things in these last two chapters where it’s like Harry all of a sudden just forgets everything that he knew about the wizarding world. He literally is like, “Oh, God, I wish I had someone like a parent.” And then it’s like, “Ah, eureka! I have a godfather!”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: So there is a lot of that going on, and it’s all in the service of giving that recap so that someone who didn’t read the first three books isn’t completely lost. I’m sure that was a requirement by the editor.

Andrew: So also, Percy now works for the Ministry; we’re learning about that for the first time. More to come there. And I think that’s it for the chapter. Okay.

Eric: Two quick ones. Two shorties.

Andrew: Two shorties.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: And now let’s turn to MVP of the week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: And I’m going to give it to the Weasleys’ super kind invite. I just love it. Not only is it an invite to the Quidditch World Cup, but also an invite to their house. Aww, so nice.

Eric: I am giving mine to Sirius Black, hello, because he stopped what he was doing, lounging on some beach somewhere in a tropical climate, and gathered the ingredients to make Harry a killer birthday cake.

Laura: I’m going to give mine to Ron. He’s a real one, man. He was vowing to come break Harry out of Privet Drive again if the Dursleys said no.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I just gotta give it up for the mailman.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Just a thankless position that he is in. He delivers this letter. He delivers the super kind invite, Andrew, that you made your MVP. So there you have it.

[MVP of the Week music ends]

Andrew: Next week we’re going back to the Burrow with Goblet of Fire Chapter 4, “Back to the Burrow,” and now it’s time for Quizzitch.


Quizzitch


[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: In opposition of his new diet, what did Dudley throw out the window? The correct answer is his PlayStation. So correct answers were submitted – here we go – by Andy; Bored on the bus; Chocolate chip Dumbledough; Dudley’s tortoise; Draco’s heart is the color of Bellatrix’s knife handle, black – I don’t know what that means – Glory dolphin; High fructose corn syrup; If the wand chooses the wizard, does the knife choose the house-elf? So many knife ones, geez. Joyodi; Luke the 12-year-old; Norwegian blue beautiful plumage; Pumpkin spiced butterbeer; Super mega foxy awesome hot; The Hogsmeade mead maker; The turtle was probably thinking “Thank God he’s gone”; and Time-traveling Dudley who has at least learned not to throw tortoises.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Anyway, thank you all to those who submitted this week’s Quizzitch answer, and here is next week’s Quizzitch question: What does Arthur Weasley ask Dudley Dursley?

Micah: Ooh.

Eric: The two are meeting next chapter.

Andrew: A meeting of the minds.

Micah: Such a fun chapter.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a good chapter coming up next week. So we’re taking submissions over on the Quizzitch form on the MuggleCast website. Visit MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch or click on “Quizzitch” from the main nav.

Micah: One thing I just wanted to say about this particular moment: It goes back to a lot of what we were talking about during the episode, the fact that Dudley can take something of value like his PlayStation and just throw it out the window like it’s nothing. It speaks to the character of the Dursley family overall. This is a high-priced item that I’m sure any child would love to have, and Dudley has just thrown it out the window like it’s nothing.

Andrew: Definitely. You know how hard it was to get the new PlayStation 5 a couple years ago? I would never throw that out the window.

Eric: Or get the regular PlayStation a couple years early.

Andrew: Right. Imported.

Laura: I just think about how my parents would have reacted if I threw an expensive electronic out the window. It would not have been pretty.

Andrew: I’d say you’d be eating grapefruit for a week, but you like grapefruit, so you’d be eating something you don’t like.

Laura: I do like grapefruit.

Eric: That wouldn’t be a punishment at all!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, they wouldn’t let me have grapefruit. They’d be like, “No grapefruit for you!”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I wonder if Mrs. Figg took it and she was just playing that game that he’s not allowed to play anymore.

Andrew: Oh, that’d be fun. Mega-Mutilation 3.

Micah: Do you think she’s a gamer? She seems like a gamer.

Andrew: Probably not.

Micah: No?

Andrew: I bet she is an Apple Podcast user…

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: … and for just $2.99 a month, she can receive ad-free and early access to MuggleCast right within the Apple Podcasts app.

Micah: That’s a great deal.

Andrew: Patreon does offer more benefits, but if you’d prefer to support us right within the Apple Podcasts app, there is an offer for you. Just tap it in the show and you’ll see the subscribe button, plus a free trial is available, as is an annual subscription. We also have free trials and annual subscriptions on the Patreon. You can sign up today and get access to bonus MuggleCast installments, our livestreams, our planning docs, monthly Slug Club hangouts, or this month, we’ve got the super fun girls’ sleepover party. So lots of benefit for you to enjoy on our Patreon. We couldn’t do this without you, so thank you. If you’re enjoying MuggleCast and think other Muggles would too, tell a friend about the show, and we’d also appreciate if you left us a review in your favorite podcast app. And we love reading those reviews too; they warm our hearts. Thank you in advance for leaving a review. And last but not least, don’t forget to follow us on social media; you definitely want to do that if you’re not already, because you’ve got to keep on top of these exciting announcements that we have, like the girls’ episode and Quizzitch Live. We’ll have more details there as they approach. We are @MuggleCast everywhere: Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, Threads. That’s everywhere for us.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Sorry, we’re not on Snapchat.

Eric: And LinkedIn.

Micah: We’re on YouTube.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Thanks for listening. Bye, everybody.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.