Transcript #509

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #509, What We’d Change About The Harry Potter Books and Movies


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode, we are going to share what we would change in the Harry Potter books and movies. This is going to be a really fun discussion. Unfortunately, of course, we are not in control, so we can’t be as optimistic about change as Taylor Swift was in her 2008 song “Change” – Taylor’s Version available now – but we’re going to complain about these things anyway. I don’t think anybody here understands the reference that I just made. Maybe Eric did.

Eric: I do, I do.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Very nice way of working in current non-HP news into the news HP podcast. Nice work.

[Andrew laughs]


Main Discussion: What we would change in Harry Potter


Andrew: We’re going to just jump straight into our discussion today. So this is not a discussion about plot holes; we’ve done that before. This is about our top annoyances with the writing, the overall character arcs, the covers, the titles, directing, etc., those types of things, and each of us brought to the table one thing we would want to change about the movies and one thing we would want to change about the books. And we also received feedback from the listeners; there are so many things that people submitted, and we’re going to have to do a part two on this discussion because there’s a lot of good stuff to discuss. So is everybody ready? I hope nobody gets angry by the end of this episode, okay? Everybody just try to chill.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I don’t know, Andrew. I’m bringing back an old segment. I might get a little frustrated.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Also, I’m just looking over your first complaint here, and it seems like you have some very strong feelings about it, so we’ll see how this goes.

Andrew: [sighs] Yeah, I know. I was trying to… I was basically just telling myself to not get too angry during this discussion.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: All right. So yeah, I’ll kick things off, and we’re going to focus on the books first. What I would change about the books are Mary Grand-Pré’s covers, and I’m specifically talking about Books 5 and 6…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … because Books 1-4 go from full color to these single color themes for the two books, and then back to full-ish color for the final book. And for completionists, this is just hell to me when you’re looking at the books all together. She should have at least stuck with the single color theme for the final book. If she decided halfway through the series, “You know what? I’m going to stick with a blue and then I’m going to stick with a green,” for 7, she should have stuck with a single color as well. This is something that wouldn’t bother me as a kid; I didn’t really think about it. But now I look at all the books together, and it bothers me now. [laughs] And by the way, we also have four illustrated editions so far, right? Order of the Phoenix, I think, comes out later this year? If they suddenly switch to a single color theme for Order of the Phoenix, just like Mary Grand-Pré did, I’m going to lose my mind.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, Andrew, you need to get one of those book covers that’s like, very white. Have you seen those? Where it’s pure white and they go over top of your existing books? That’s what you need.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a good idea. People sell those on Etsy; maybe I should do that. And by the way, a related annoyance: The Cormoran Strike books changed up their theme and overall style beginning with Lethal White, which I believe was the fourth book. They used to have these somewhat original covers, and I really liked them, and now they changed the design of the covers and they look like every crime novel now. They don’t look unique at all, and I’m like, “Why?” So the first two or three books look original, look unique, and then you look at four onward, and they’re a completely different style. It’s very bizarre to me. Can anybody defend these terrible decisions?

Laura: Yeah, so first of all, Andrew, this is hell for you? To look at these book covers?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah!

Micah: Mary is not coming on the show again; that is for sure.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Okay, I want to see if I can help you out here. So I think… and I can understand why, when you look at the covers all together for the first time and just think about them as a collective, I can understand why you might feel like, “Eh, Books 5 and 6 kind of stick out.” But I think the reason for that is because Mary Grand-Pré chose to focus on very specific scenes from the both of those books, and we know that when Harry is in the Department of Mysteries, there’s blue flames, so everything does have a blue cast, and it’s the same when they go to the cave in Half-Blood Prince, the potion is illuminating everything, and I think that’s what she was going for. I actually found this to be a nice departure from the fourth book, which I feel like is probably my least favorite cover, because it doesn’t actually capture anything that happened in the book. It was, like, Scholastic promotional photo of the Triwizard Tournament. That’s what it felt like to me.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It was pretty basic.

Eric: Laura, Goblet of Fire is my favorite cover!

Laura: Well, Goblet of Fire is my favorite book; it’s just probably my least favorite cover.

Eric: Oh, it’s my favorite cover. Harry looks happy for the first… like, truly happy, and you don’t get a lot of…

Laura: But isn’t that out of line? Because Harry is not happy in that book.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: See, I took this discussion to mean that we were talking about the content of the books, not, in fact, the damn covers. [laughs]

Andrew: All aspects. Whatever you want to change, this is your opportunity.

Eric: This is what you would change given the opportunity, Andrew? You pick the covers would change?

Andrew: Yes! Yes.

Laura: But you feel like it would have felt better for you if she had gone for a single tone theme for Book 7. You could have at least been like, “The last three books…”

Andrew: At least.

Laura: Okay, I get it. For the most part, I would argue that the seventh book cover… it’s not one tone, but it is all very warm tones, orangey based, so I don’t think that she went completely out of left field with that cover. But yeah, I mean, I understand at first glance, but I think when you really sit down and realize – with the exception of Goblet of Fire – every other cover that Mary Grand-Pré has done has featured a specific moment from the book.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: In Sorcerer’s Stone, we have Harry playing Quidditch; Chamber of Secrets, we have them flying out of the Chamber of Secrets; Prisoner of Azkaban, them breaking Sirius out, etc., right? And I think that because she chose these very specific moments that came from the books’ climaxes in 5 and 6, she really didn’t have much of a choice but to go with those single color themes, because that’s what it looked like. That’s how it was described in the books.

Andrew: I disagree, but okay.

Micah: I also think that what happened is that you had Harry maturing over time, and I think you saw that reflected in some of the covers, right? You were talking about those single tones for Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince. But if we’re really interested in knowing the answers – I did mention earlier that Mary would never come on the show again after this particular segment…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: … but she was on the show way back in 2009, Episode 172, and she actually explains the process of designing the covers – which one gave her the most difficulty, her favorite character – and she also talked about the connection between Books 1 and 7 and how there are curtains on both of them…

Andrew: Yes, that’s cool.

Micah: … and how she worked to create that kind of bookend, for lack of a better term. So it was a good interview; I would give it a listen.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, look, my closing point on this is that, Laura, not everything in the Department of Mysteries was blue, including the candles and the wisps and Harry’s skin and the jacket. Everything’s blue. And then the Half-Blood Prince cover, everything’s green. No, just… I could not live with myself if I decided to change the color schemes of these books halfway through the series.

Laura: You couldn’t live with yourself? [laughs]

Andrew: I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night knowing what I was doing to people, ruining what their books look like all together. In my opinion.

Laura: Well, the good news is there are so many different editions of these books that are available worldwide, and you can probably find one whose art matches your personal preference.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m going to go with the UK editions.

Micah: Branch out a little bit. You can go to the Potter Collector; I’m sure he has some recommendations on covers.

Andrew: Sure, sure. Micah, what’s your annoyance? [laughs] Or what would you change?

Micah: So the one thing that I would change that’s really at the top of my list is Philosopher’s Stone to Sorcerer’s Stone, right?

Eric: Ahh.

Micah: That has been such a big controversy, so I would change the title of the book and the movie here in the US back to its original, which is Philosopher’s Stone. And for folks who may not know, Scholastic made this decision to change the title of the first Harry Potter book because they believed it would sell better here in the United States. Clearly, however, this wasn’t an issue for the rest of the entire world.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oooh, oh, gosh.

Micah: So I believe that Scholastic made this decision because they think Americans are stupid and they don’t know what “philosopher” means.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Micah brought his angry dad voice out for this.

Andrew: Yeah, I got scared for a second there.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, you know what? I actually agree with you; kids will not know “sorcerer” any more than they know “philosopher,” like, what that means, so I don’t really get that change.

Laura: Well, and wasn’t it said in an interview that…? I don’t know if it was with Arthur Levine or with J.K. Rowling, but they genuinely just straight up said they did not think that the word “philosopher” would resonate with American audiences. I know we can be stupid sometimes, but come on, guys.

Micah: Well, this is also consistent with their decision to have J.K. Rowling change her name as the author, right?

Laura: Ooh, yeah.

Micah: She was going to be Joanne Rowling, and they said, “No, you need to make your name sound more masculine or more sterile and just be J.K. Rowling, because if kids see that a woman is writing this book, it’s not going to sell as well.”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I can’t speak to the publishing industry’s internal misogyny, or anything other than the fact that I support the decision of changing the name to Sorcerer’s Stone. In preparing this sort of defense, I actually looked up the term “philosopher,” and I really wanted to use Oxford English Dictionary. I was like, “Oh God, let’s see what the Brits say a philosopher is.” And then I found that the Oxford English Dictionary, OED.com, charges $100, so I’m not going to do that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: So Dictionary.com defines a philosopher in several ways. Number one: a person who offers views or theories or profound questions in ethics, metaphysics, logic, and other related fields. Two: a person who’s deeply versed in philosophy. Three: a person who establishes the central ideas of some movement, cult, etc. And I’ll skip the middle ones, but definition six, categorized as obsolete: an alchemist or occult scientist. Now, I’m an 11-year-old, and for my birthday, I’ve just got the first Harry Potter book, and it’s Philosopher’s Stone. I’m like, “Oh my God, this is great. What is a philosopher?” I’m not going to know that an occult scientist… even the word “occult” eludes me at age 32 for what it specifically means. I guess “Americans are stupid” isn’t necessarily the winning argument I thought it was going to be when I was thinking about it, but I am grateful that Scholastic made this change, because Sorcerer’s Stone, with the alliteration, rolls off the tongue. I know what a sorcerer is because I’ve grown up with Fantasia and The Sorcerer’s Apprentice and all this other stuff. The word “sorcerer” immediately sparks what it wants to in me. Magic. A magician, basically.

Andrew: I think that’s right.

Eric: And I know this. “Philosopher” did not mean philosopher, even when J.K. Rowling used it, for hundreds of years.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s more palatable. I get it.

Eric: It’s a lot more palatable, and in fact, I would go so far as to say all of the book titles should be Sorcerer’s Stone. [laughs] If you want to change something, change all the other ones.

Micah: Wow.

Laura: Whoa. [laughs]

Micah: I mean, God forbid that we learn what a philosopher is, that we do a little bit of research…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … and that’s part of the discovery, the part of reading the actual book is to learn more about what this actually is. Now, Eric, though, I am actually really glad that you said we should rename all of the other books, because that’s exactly what I’m going to do.

Andrew: Oh, no.

Eric: [laughs] What?

Micah: So I’m bringing back an old segment that hasn’t been done in years, called What’s Buggin’ Micah.

Eric: Oh my God.

Micah: And I figured, since they decided to dumb down the title for Americans for Sorcerer’s Stone, I’m going to do that for every other book in the Harry Potter series.

Eric: [laughs] Oh my God.

Micah: And I’ll start with Chamber of Secrets. Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts; I’m happy to have this conversation. So I say to myself, again, if you’re that age, what exactly is a chamber?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Let’s just make this as easy as possible: Harry Potter and the Secret Basement.

Andrew: Oh.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: We love basements here in America, and some even have their own snakes.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: Okay, yeah, I like it.

Micah: Prisoner of Azkaban. “Prisoner” is no longer a politically correct term here in America; we’d have to go with “incarcerated individual,” and honestly, that’s a college-level term. So let’s just go with Harry Potter and the Bad, Bad Man from Azkaban.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I thought you were going to change Azkaban, because Azkaban, like, what’s Azkaban? I don’t care to even learn by reading the book.

Eric: The Bad, Bad Man…

Laura: That’s a good point. You could say the Bad, Bad Man from Wizard Prison.

Micah: Even better, Laura. See? We’re making changes on the fly here. Goblet of Fire. Does a 7-year-old have any clue what that means? I mean, when I think of “goblet,” I think of drinking, and Scholastic certainly would not want to promote underage drinking.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: True.

Micah: Therefore, we have Harry Potter and the Big Magic Cup.

Andrew: Okay, yeah.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I can’t wait to see the book covers that we’re inevitably going to put out on social.

Micah: Order of the Phoenix, I think just there’s too much happening here. Can we as Americans even pronounce “phoenix”? I think it’s too hard.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Only Arizonians.

Micah: And so let’s call this book what it truly is: Harry Potter Hits Puberty.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Such a world-relatable topic.

Laura: Agree. [laughs]

Andrew: And a lot of us are probably going through puberty while reading this book. [laughs]

Micah: There you go. Half-Blood Prince. We do not have princes here in America, minus the one very talented musician and the one we borrowed from the UK that now lives in Los Angeles; we’re not going to count them.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: We’re also not very good at figuring out riddles…

Eric: Oh, preach.

Micah: … and I think it’s important to stress the moral of this book, which is, “If you work really hard or cheat -” and we love to cheat in America “- you can achieve success.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Therefore, I’m going with Harry Potter Gets Good at Potions.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We love to cheat in America. So true.

Micah: We do, we do. You’ve got to keep it on point. And then finally, Deathly Hallows, right? What in the world is this title?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: “Philosopher” was a problem, but “Hallows” is okay? I’m just keeping it super simple. Harry Potter: The End.

Andrew: [laughs] Well done, Micah. Well done.

Laura: This is great.

Andrew: We’ll submit these to the publisher.

Laura: I cannot wait to see these altered book covers. I’m sure Jule is cursing your name right now, Micah.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Is it just me or would you guys also buy those books? [laughs]

Andrew and Laura: No.

Andrew: I probably wouldn’t. Those titles are really bad.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: That’s the point.

Eric: Well, I mean, maybe if they change the color scheme on some of the covers, you’d be fine.

Andrew: One thing I’ll add – and I think we’re all in agreement – if a later Harry Potter book was going to be titled Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone, Scholastic would have kept it that way. They wouldn’t have changed Book 4, knowing that Harry Potter was already well established and the title of the book wasn’t going to affect sales. But because it was the first book and they weren’t sure how it was going to do, they were doing what they could to make sure it’s sold, right?

Eric: They were setting it up for success. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

Laura: I think so too.

Micah: I agree with you. I agree with you that they likely wouldn’t have changed anything else later on in the series. I think to your point, they wanted to make sure that it had that initial success, because also, marketing becomes a nightmare if you have to do that for seven books.

Andrew: Right. Now, that said, if Harry Potter didn’t blow up, maybe they would have changed all of the titles to what Micah suggested.

Eric: Some fun facts on the What’s Buggin’ Micah segment, since we were questioning before recording how long ago it was we did it, but it actually debuted on Episode 55 of MuggleCast.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: Way back when, and it ran for about… there were multiple…

Micah: What was buggin’ me then?

Eric: It was J.K. Rowling did not update her website fast enough for you.

Micah: Oh.

Eric: And within five days… in fact, I think one of the other episodes was called “Micah Gets Results.”

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: The website was updated within five days of that episode airing.

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: So it really inspired us to continue that segment through, I want to say, about 150? I’m looking up the transcripts now. So yeah, we did it for a while.

Micah: Wow. Well, I hope you enjoyed that reinstallment.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So what do you want to change, Eric?

Eric: So mine is actually relating to the plot of the books, although I will say we did not want to do plot holes, so my way of getting around this is talking about more of a contrivance of the plot. It basically comes down to Harry Potter is not a good student.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: And in fact, he’s not a good wizard, period. Plus exclamation point. He over-relies on his gut, throwing off a random Expelliarmus here and there when he’s in a sticky situation. My problem is that it works for him. He is allowed to continuously, again and again, get out of scrapes by just using his gut or the intelligence of his friends, and over time, this ruins the overall hero’s journey for me. So it just kind of gets to the point… I know we spent hours discussing, leading up to Book 7 in the first hundred episodes of MuggleCast, whether or not Harry would die, or whether it made sense for the whole trio to survive because there’s this huge wizarding war. And I think if I could remember going back, I was really excited to see Harry finally hunker down, learn nonverbal spells, even just get to the same level that every other wizard he knows is on, like Snape can do wandless magic or nonverbal spells. Snape at the end of Half-Blood Prince is making fun of Harry for not being able to do these things, and I was like, “Harry is going to spend six months… the seventh book could be years and years long, because Harry is going to become a good wizard.” No, it turns out he just doesn’t. So yet again, Harry bungles through Book 7, just… and again, in the end – I’ll make this short – he kills Voldemort with Expelliarmus, so what has he learned, really? That it’s good to be the hero of a major book series.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Am I wrong? Who wants to defend this?

Micah: Look, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Okay?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And Expelliarmus has worked for him time and time again. Why not go with old faithful? And I think it’s important…

Eric: It’s a defensive charm! It’s not even an offensive spell! It’s defensive.

Micah: Well, he’s pretty much on the defensive most of the time that he’s fighting Voldemort, is he not?

Eric: Fair, fair.

Micah: And he learned the spell from Snape, didn’t he?

Eric: Well, vaguely.

Micah: I think there’s something poetic about that. We’re talking about the book here, right? That was J.K. Rowling’s intent that Harry’s signature spell comes from the person that he hates the most, because I think he for the most part, throughout the series – except maybe at the end – hates Snape more than he hates Voldemort. You brought up the point that Harry isn’t that great of a student. I mean, he does earn seven OWLs, same as Ron. We obviously expect Hermione to do better, and she does; she gets 11. But the only grades where he got below Exceeds Expectations were History of Magic, and let’s be honest, would any of us…? Maybe Laura would get high marks in History of Magic, but I think the rest of us would just do the same as Harry. Astronomy, and we remember what happened during that exam, right? Hagrid getting attacked. And Divination, so outside of that, he’s a pretty damn good student, I would argue.

Eric: I guess I’m expecting more from the hero who’s going to save the entire world, that he would look up to somebody like Dumbledore and be inspired by that kind of magic, that level of magic, and to see Harry not have to achieve that level of aptitude as a wizard was disappointing for me as a kid who wanted to read about this crazy hero, only to find out that he’s just some 17-year-old kid who dropped out of school the last year.

Andrew: Doesn’t that make him more likable, though? That he’s not perfect?

Eric: Does it, though?

Andrew: Yes!

Eric: I think to some people it will.

Andrew: It’s more relatable, because I’m not perfect. I’m glad that Harry kind of sucks in a lot of ways.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I, too, would only use one spell a lot of the time. [laughs] Just think of when you play a video game, you have certain moves that you really like. Like in Smash Bros., I love doing that Thunderbolt with Pikachu.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That’s the only move I do, because I like it. B + down.

Micah: Oh, yeah, same here.

Andrew: Right? Exactly. [laughs]

Micah: It works really well too. I would also just add that from a student standpoint, Harry is very accomplished by an early age in Defense Against the Dark Arts, right? Especially from what he learns from Professor Lupin. And it’s that knowledge that he then takes to teaching through Dumbledore’s Army and equipping his classmates with a lot of what they need in order to fight moving forward, because they weren’t getting it from the school. So again, I’m just kind of disputing this idea that Harry is not a good student.

Eric: Well, as a quick rebuttal to that, so much about Harry, so much that Harry is good at, comes easily to him. Riding a broom is so second nature because it’s in his blood, right? His genes did it. His mother’s protection just comes to him. His wealth, it just comes to him. And there’s so much of it… casting a Patronus, again, something that’s extremely special and gifted and there’s adults who just can’t do it. And Harry works at it; at least with the Patronus, it takes time. But all this stuff really just does seem to come second nature. Hermione can’t even sit on a broomstick in the books without falling off, but Harry just… the second he touches one, he’s gold, and so I think that’s a little disappointing.

Andrew: All right, Laura, what would you change?

Laura: So what bugs me, and what I would like to see be a little different if I could change something, is that I would have more nuanced Slytherin representation in the books. I think the best examples that we get are Slughorn and Snape. You can also, I think, you can put Draco in here, too, because in Book 6, we really see him start to grapple with his role in what’s going on and realize that he’s bitten off more that he can chew. I think that it’s really great that we got to see some more nuance with them, and by nuance, I mean you’re not just a bad guy because you’re in Slytherin, or you’re not just evil, or you’re not just dumb like Crabbe and Goyle because you’re in Slytherin. The overall perception of Slytherins in the core series comes across as though being born into a family of Slytherins dooms one to a lifetime of wickedness. And I think to that point, it’s very clear that there’s been more of an effort in Fantastic Beasts and Cursed Child to provide that more nuanced portrayal of Slytherins, which to me indicates that the author and the creators knew this was a missed opportunity, because people are more complicated than one House being good and another being evil. Dumbledore even says himself in Book 7, “Sometimes I think we Sort too young.” You’re just boxing people in; that’s not what life is like, and I think that you do a disservice, especially to young readers, by teaching them if you see somebody who they’re of this particular group, or they hold this particular belief, they’re always evil, and that’s not the case. We’ve seen it with Leta Lestrange. We’ve seen it with Harry’s own son, right?

Eric: Well, canon pending, right?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Depending on your… yeah.

Laura: Well, I think the author argues that it’s canon. So who wants to defend this choice?

Eric: So I’ll touch on this a little bit, because I think you did a really good job explaining. I think a very fair… it’s almost unassailable of a point because you’re like, “Listen, I think even the creators are working to go back a little bit.” What I’ll say is I think the problem is that in Harry Potter, you have his school rivalry with Draco Malfoy, and so you have the natural grievance there, and then you have his… Harry’s least favorite teacher, who openly insults students, in Snape being from Slytherin. And then you have every Death Eater except for Peter Pettigrew being from Slytherin, so it’s a big problem, because it really does paint all Slytherins as evil. I will say, for the purposes of schooling, the whole reason they Sort is so that like-minded individuals can be among their own, and I don’t see anything wrong with a House whose primary goal or primary characteristic or character trait is ambition being one of the primary Houses of Hogwarts. I don’t have a problem with that, because if you look at ambition, if you look at the types of behavior – because everything can go good or can go wrong – if you look at the bad side of ambition, you get really selfish people. And I’m not saying selfish people can’t exist in other Houses; they certainly do, but if that’s your defining characteristic, and you’re going to do what it takes at the expense of others, it makes sense that the people who end up being some of the most criminal… I’m treading very carefully here because I’m not equipped enough to talk about the nuance of mental health and people, but I’m saying if you look at the people who are going to be in it for themselves, it makes sense that they come from the House that values being in it for yourself.

Laura: I suppose. But I think, too, you can start going down the rabbit hole of making an argument about Hermione is very ambitious; she’s extremely ambitious, but the Sorting Hat didn’t even think about putting her in Slytherin, because why? The unspoken she’s not pure-blood enough to go there.

Eric: Ah, yeah.

Laura: And I just feel like you’re really locking readers and the characters into this assumption that all Slytherins are doomed to being prejudiced and doomed to being evil, and even when we do get, I think, Harry’s first positive Slytherin representative in Slughorn, it feels like Harry kind of ignores that he’s a Slytherin because Harry likes him, right?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And so Harry never observes, “Oh, yeah, he’s a Slytherin.” That doesn’t happen.

Eric: I think Harry is… I don’t agree with that about what Harry feels about Slughorn. I think Harry is pretty creeped out by some of Slughorn’s more unsavory tendencies, but I think that’s the other thing that you’re mentioning is with families that have been in Slytherin because… this happens with the Weasleys; the whole family is in Gryffindor, all of them, and that’s a very common thing. So in our families we inherit our prejudices, and that’s what the character Draco Malfoy does later, where he has to come to terms with the reality of the real world, instead of just the pure-blood mania/Dark Lord supporting mania of his family. So I think that maybe a lot of people that were Sorted into Slytherin first picked up the habits, mannerisms, internalized beliefs of their Death Eater parents, and then had to really, in the modern age, grapple with what it means to be ambitious, but also to be a good person and also to be a little empathetic, a little understanding, and not turn into more of a bigot. So I’d say there’s something to it in the psychology that allows for a greater group of bad wizards to be from Slytherin, but I don’t think it should be as cut and dry as it is in the books. So it’s kind of a half-argument there.

Laura: Yeah, so we kind of agree.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, we kind of do, but I would argue that if there is one place where you can hone your ambition that actually benefits everyone, it’s like why they do college study programs and stuff. And there’s also a lot of similarities between Ravenclaw and Slytherin.

Laura: Yeah, very true.

Micah: I think part of the issue, though, comes from the fact that even very early on in the series, Harry doesn’t want to be in Slytherin, and I think that gets into our minds as readers, and then from that point forward, we’re automatically thinking that Slytherin is this evil House that the people in it can do no good at all. And I also think it’s unfairly balanced, so to Laura, your point about just having more nuanced Slytherin representation, I think there needs to be more nuanced representation across the board. It’s always three versus one, right? There’s never even two versus two, or where Slytherin is on the side of Gryffindor or Ravenclaw. It just seems very… unless it’s Quidditch, and then they may seem to want the other team to win, but that’s about the extent of it. And I also think it’s because when you’re talking about Sorting too early, you’re labeling kids in a very young age, right? All of these Houses have specific traits that you’re then assigning to these very young individuals instead of just having Houses and just Sorting them for no other reason than it’s randomized and “You’re going to this House” or “You’re going to that House,” and I think it would make for a little bit less controversy.

Andrew: I also put this on Hogwarts leadership.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Dumbledore.

Andrew: It would have been very interesting to see in the books them trying to get rid of this perception of Slytherins, and really, Hufflepuffs too. I mean, those two Houses get bad raps in different ways. Well, I guess it’s more readers who hate on Hufflepuff than the actual students at Hogwarts.

Laura: No, but we definitely see it in the books, too, because… was it Ron? Or was it Draco? I don’t remember which one of them said this, but it is very telling that I can’t recall which of these characters said this…

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: … because they both share this bias. One of them said on the Hogwarts Express, “Oh, I hope… if I got Sorted into Hufflepuff, I’d go home, wouldn’t you?”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, “I think I’d leave.” It’s Draco Malfoy in Madam Malkin’s, yeah.

Andrew: Okay.

Laura: There we go. Yeah, you’re right.

Micah: Also, how current is the Sorting Hat, right? That thing has been in use for so long; time to have an upgrade to that thing.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Software Update.

Eric: Now I’m picturing the Sorting Hat, but it’s been made over by Jonathan Van Ness or somebody.

Laura: [laughs] That’d be great.

Eric: Just give it a touchup.

Andrew: Sorting Hat four point woke.

Laura: So basically, I think what we can all agree on is that the Sorting Hat is like an outdated piece of technology; it’s no longer relevant with current times.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: So ditch it. And I think that in UK boarding schools, I know that they actually do have houses, but to my knowledge, I don’t think that they’re pigeon-holing children into very broad themes of like, “Well, you seem quite ambitious, so we’re going to put you over here.” [laughs] “You seem very brave, and we’re going to put you over here.”

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: So before we get into our biggest gripes with the movies, here’s one thing we can all agree on…

[Ad break]

Andrew: Let’s move on to what we would change about the movies now. So as readers, we all care about the adaptations very, very much. And I think there’s an endless number of things we would want to change about the movies, so it was pretty difficult to just pick one thing, but one thing that really stood out to me was the Harry/Voldemort free fall fight at the end of Deathly Hallows – Part 2. They run around the school, Voldemort’s cloak wrapping around Harry as Voldemort just stares as it’s happening; it’s really tacky. And then that free fall, the heads morphing into each other, flying through the sky, and I was rewatching this last night… what was Harry thinking by pulling Voldemort over a ledge? If Voldemort wants to kill you, he could have just let you go, let you crash into the ground. You wouldn’t have been able to do anything about it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Voldemort is the one who can fly, not you, so why are you pulling Voldemort off the ledge?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I just… Voldemort could’ve just let him fall to the ground and die and that would have been it. No final duel needed. It’s just the thing is so dumb. Obviously, it’s not in the books.

Eric: It looks good in 3D, Andrew!

Andrew: Oh yeah, right. They were high on 3D back then too. Oh man, it was so bad. Why? I get why they wanted to; I hate to contradict myself. They wanted to create a bigger climax for the final movie, but this was the wrong way to go in my opinion. [laughs]

Laura: I agree. I hated… the whole climax of Deathly Hallows – Part 2 sucked.

Micah: Well, this should be fun.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Micah, you’re going to try to defend this decision?

Micah: Honestly, number one, I can’t believe I’m defending David Yates. And number two, given my next point that we’re going to talk about after this, this just seems really weird, but I’m going to try. And it kind of goes to a point you raised, Andrew: You needed an epic final battle sequence, and you couldn’t just have them meet in the Great Hall and duel it out. You needed to go through the grounds of Hogwarts.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And that whole concept of them morphing into each other was symbolic in that these two had been connected since the beginning of the series, and here they are in the final moments; they’re still connected to each other. So Harry pulling Voldemort off the ledge there, that was the element of surprise. Voldemort didn’t have time to react; he’s more concerned about just staying alive himself. And I would say that I think the final duel between the two of them, it looked good on screen, but you had to get there somehow. And the fact that they’re battling each other all around the Hogwarts grounds… it’s a movie; you need the buildup to the final confrontation, and I think they delivered on that.

Laura: What do you think of Harry’s line where he’s like, “Let’s finish this the way we started it, Tom. Together!”

Andrew: “Together!”

Laura: And he pulls him over the ledge. [laughs]

Andrew: That line, I don’t particularly mind. It’s everything else that happens after that line that bugs me.

Laura: Right.

Eric: I haven’t stated my opinion yet on this, but I agree with Micah, actually, and it makes for a good movie.

Andrew: Huh. Wow.

Eric: That was what they’re trying to do, make a good movie, right? So I would say that that whole flying with the pyrotechnics, and the thing is…

Andrew: How about just a better duel on the ground? A better wand duel on the ground, like the Dumbledore/Voldemort one at the end of Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Well, okay, that speaks to what Laura is going to be talking about in her thing. I think there were a couple of problems they avoided by doing this whole flying thing instead.

Andrew: All right. Well, I just really wish that didn’t happen in Deathly Hallows – Part 2. If I had a VHS tape, I would cut that portion of my VHS tape out…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Oooh.

Andrew: … and just stitch the two areas together that should have cut from one to the next.

Micah: Not to bring up another past episode, but when we did interview David Yates on Episode 235 of MuggleCast, we talked about this. So kind of like… I love, Andrew, how you’re calling out moments that we can reference back to past episodes for guests that we’ve had on the show that will never come on again.

Andrew: [laughs] See, I kept my mouth shut during these interviews. I don’t know if I was a part of that David Yates interview.

Laura: You’re being a good soldier.

Eric: Here’s a quote from David. Again, all the MuggleCast transcripts are on the website, so this is very easy.

“I wanted that final confrontation between the two of them to be a little bit more expansive…”

Eric: Sorry, I should do this in my David Yates voice.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: [imitating David Yates]

“… and so that you had a greater sense of climax, given that we had spent so long with those characters, and their animosity and their hatred for each other. So it felt to me as though it would be much more personal and dynamic if they were to head off away from the rest of everyone and continue fighting, so that was the idea behind it. And we had an earlier version of it, which finished in a similar way to the book…”

[Andrew gasps]

“… and it worked really well in the book, but in a movie, I think we needed a more kinetic conclusion.”

Andrew: Eh, all right.

Eric: He said kinetic, meaning movement.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: Get that deleted scene, though, Andrew.

Eric: Oh, you know what? Here’s a quote regarding the morphing.

“… as though they were one. For me, it kind of captured so much of their odd relationship together, that they’re kind of one, but they’re not one, in a weird kind of way. And so it was mainly to make sure that the movie felt like it had a theatrical enough ending to satisfy all the fans of the books and all the fans of the movies.”

Micah: You see? David and I agree.

Andrew: How is that satisfying? Morphing. “Oh, they morphed, wow. They are kind of one. Oh my gosh.”

Eric: I think it’s cool. I argued at the time we saw that movie that it was thematically very interesting.

Andrew: Eugh.

Micah: And Eric, I really enjoyed the impersonation, I can say. For that interview, I was literally sitting across the desk from him, and he is probably the most soft-spoken person I’ve ever met.

Andrew: He is.

Eric: He is the kindest, most soft-spoken. Absolutely.

Andrew: He’s Winnie the Pooh. All right, Micah, what would you change?

Micah: So switching gears, doing a complete 180 off of what I just defended…

Andrew: Is it? [laughs] Switching gears from director talk to director talk.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah, but instead of defending them, I’m going to be criticizing them. So I just feel that the series as a whole had too many directors, so the Harry Potter movie series suffered from too many changes in directors. Eight films, four directors. And consistency matters, and its lack thereof resulted in many favorite moments and plot lines not making the final cut, and characters being completely eliminated for reasons like pacing. I’m thinking also just the layout of Hogwarts, where we spend a good amount of time, it changed drastically going from Chamber of Secrets to Prisoner of Azkaban, right? The location of Hagrid’s hut changed. The Whomping Willow got a makeover. They added the covered bridge. The front door was accessed via a courtyard versus the front lawn. And to me, if you’re a fan of the series, especially when it comes to seeing it brought to life, you want consistency, and I think the problem is every time you bring in a new director, they want to put their own spin on things. And we didn’t really get a practiced hand until Order of the Phoenix. Yes, we had Chris Columbus for the first two, but it wasn’t until David Yates came on board that we had consistency through the final four films.

Andrew: Well, first of all, I think you might get your wish with Fantastic Beasts. It looks like David Yates is going to be directing all five of those movies, so you’ll get some consistency there. Second of all, I think what’s so great about franchises is that so many of them do have different directors. You get these different visions; you get these different takes on the story. So while things don’t exactly line up, it’s kind of like these movies are starting off on a blank slate when they get these new directors. In terms of the locations of Hagrid’s hut moving or the Whomping Willow getting a makeover, I don’t think that’s necessarily the director’s fault. It might be to an extent, but there are a lot of other people who are working on these movies who are working on the entire franchise, so I would put the blame more on them, especially somebody like Stuart Craig, the production designer. I’m okay with David Yates directing all five Fantastic Beasts movies for now, but I wish that there were more directors for the Harry Potter film series. I don’t like that David Yates took on the final four movies.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, if you look at Star Wars, even just the original trilogy before Ron Howard, Gareth Edwards, Ryan Johnson, all the other guys got to do – JJ, of course – the original trilogy was all different directors. You have Star Wars by George Lucas, Empire Strikes Back was Irvin Kershner, and somebody named Richard Marquand did Return of the Jedi. What it gives you is different-looking films, different-feeling films, slightly, subtly, but it’s still clearly in the same universe, and it’s still clearly a continuation of the series. But each of those films has its own flair and its own, I guess… there’s a French word, something about vivre that I’m thinking of. But anyway, so I think the change in directors has a potential to be a very good thing for something that’s going to last as long as eight films.

Andrew: Yeah, look how many people loved Prisoner of Azkaban, thanks to Alfonso Cuarón coming in and just doing his own take on it.

Eric: Much to my dismay, because I can’t stand it as an adaptation.

Andrew: I know, I know some people are definitely upset, but others it was just such a refreshing change after the first two movies.

Micah: Yeah, but I think also, too, when you bring in those different perspectives, they’re sacrificing different things. For example, with Alfonso Cuarón, you bring him in, he adds a more artistic flair to the films, right? I’m thinking of the Whomping Willow killing the bird every time a new season starts…

[Laura laughs]

Micah: … or the little ice coverings that come over the plants when the Dementors are close by, and there’s probably a dozen other examples of that. But when you’re watching that, it’s also taking time away from telling the Marauders’ backstory.

Eric: Right.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So there are arguments that can be made both ways. And I think if you look at the series overall, the one thing the Harry Potter films did have, with the exception being at the director position, was consistency. The cast was consistent throughout the entire films.

Andrew: An amazing achievement, by the way.

Micah: The producers, right? David Heyman and David Barron were consistent. Steve Kloves as a screenwriter, with the exception of Order of the Phoenix, is there the entire time.

Eric: Yep.

Micah: Why would you not then look to have consistency at arguably the most important position? And that’s the director. So that’s my thoughts on that.

Andrew: Well, here’s the other thing to keep in mind: Some of these directors just want out. It takes over their lives. I’m serious, I’m serious. People do not like committing to a franchise for an extended period of time, because they have no other life, and they have no other cinematic life. They have to stay committed to this one particular film series, and it’s exhausting for people. This has happened with the Twilight and Hunger Games franchises too.

Micah: But you’re also directing the highest grossing film franchise of all time.

Andrew: Micah, Micah, money does not buy happiness.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And David Yates isn’t the one collecting all that money, even though they might pay him more.

Laura: Hey, it sure helps.

Andrew: Yeah, I guess, but…

Micah: Your name is forever attached to the highest-grossing film franchise, most successful film franchise, of all time.

Andrew: Who needs their name attached to all 5,000 movies? Isn’t one or two okay?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I mean, Chris Columbus famously said he wanted to spend more time with his family. He was raising children when that… and casting half of them in the movies, so it’s probably for the better that he…

Micah: He was just disappointed Haley Joel didn’t get the role of Harry Potter, so he was out after two.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They wanted him to do the third movie at least, but he said he couldn’t.

Andrew: And this just shows you how exhausted these directors are by the time they reach the end of these movies.

Eric: Yep.

Andrew: They don’t care if they’re working on the biggest franchise of all time. They want out. [laughs] They’re exhausted.

Eric: Well, speaking of somebody that must have been exhausted fairly early on in the production crew of the Harry Potter films, my complaint has to do with the wardrobe. I think that the wardrobe department just must have just quit or wanted something to do, either/or. My complaint about the entire movie adaptations is plain clothes Hogwarts students!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: By about midway into the Harry Potter movies, you’ve got these Abercrombie & Fitch striped sweaters, bright pink jackets… the kids are walking around this school of magic looking like they came out of my high school…

Micah: And that’s just Dumbledore. Oh, sorry.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: [groans] Well, bright… yeah, Dumbledore is allowed to be flamboyant; he gets a pass. Everyone else, this regular street clothes, stuff that I would have worn in the… I’m just kidding; I’m not that stylish. You just can’t… I cannot handle it. This is a school for magic.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Give me long, billowy robes, not only because I want to see them; I want to see how they work. I want to see having to do extraordinary feats of magic in robes. I want to see it done, because in my mind’s eye, in the books, it’s done. In the books, they even have hats! They have pointy wizard caps, and I think even J.K. Rowling realized how not practical that was because they only appear in the first book. But yeah, give me full on wizard dress robes. This is not a freaking Hot Topic. You’re not going to see the latest boy band concert, okay? MCR is not headlining Hogwarts. Why do I have to keep saying this? You can’t just wear whatever the hell you want to Hogwarts. Wear your damn robes. You are wizards, people. I’m sick of it.

Andrew: [laughs] Eric is biased because he’s a cosplayer. He needs some inspiration, and if they’re wearing Abercrombie & Fitch, he can’t be inspired.

Eric: [laughs] I was not expecting to be called out for my own personal fashion choices here.

Andrew: No, no, I’m saying you’re a cosplayer. You want to look like the characters in the books, and if they look like everyday Eric, there’s nothing to cosplay.

Eric: I think that’s fair. I didn’t even see that. I didn’t see that coming.

Andrew: I’m your therapist now.

Micah: Eric, if they would have kept Chris Columbus, then you would have had those robes throughout the entire series.

Eric: Actually, I love that you brought that up because I think it was specifically in effort to be different. This is one of those… it’s like the ice crystals; I like that, by the way. I like the art, whole style, but the departure… it was such a sharp edge that needed to be done, so all of a sudden, yeah, why wouldn’t Harry…? Or why wouldn’t Hermione just wear jeans half the time? But I think it was done for the wrong reasons. And then it stuck because Cuarón had started it; everyone else thought that it was the coolest thing ever, and also probably saved them money on black wool fabric, and then they just went that way forever. So it’s like all of the most iconic scenes from the later books – I wouldn’t say meeting Grawp in the forest; forget about that – but all the best scenes, they’re wearing street clothes, and I think it’s stupid. I just can’t stand it. I’m like, these are wizards. This is magic. This is not… I actually look to Harry Potter for escapism. Some people look to Harry Potter to see themselves; I don’t want to see myself. I want to see wizards in robes, waving wands, doing spells, and it just kills it for me if they’re all allowed to be regular old teenagers in street clothes.

Laura: So I have mixed feelings on this. I’m defending this. On the one hand, I definitely agree that starting in Prisoner of Azkaban, the clothes weren’t right. They were too modern, because we know that the stories took place in the ’90s, so they were wearing clothes that were very modern at the time the movies were filmed, and that just didn’t feel right. I feel like if they had gone for a street clothes vibe that fit the ’90s, maybe some tie-dye, I don’t know, some JNCOs…

Andrew: Tie-dye?!

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I’m kidding, I’m kidding. But I think that there was a way to do the street clothes that could have been less distracting, and it sounds, Eric, like it was distracting for you, like it took you out of the movie. And that’s why I would draw your attention to the first Harry Potter film where they do indeed wear plain clothes on a couple of very specific occasions in that film, in particular, the night that they are leaving Gryffindor tower to go break in and take the Philosopher’s/Sorcerer’s Stone – whatever your preference is there – they’re wearing plain clothes. They’re not wearing robes, but the clothes that they were wearing were, I would say, more discreet. Less flashy.

Eric: Khakis and a sweater, I’m thinking.

Laura: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Knit sweaters, things that didn’t feel out of place for the environment. So I think if they had stuck with that throughout the rest of the series, it might not have bothered you as much. I definitely found that everybody did look a little too modern, a little too trendy, but I think that they still could have done plain clothes without being that flashy.

Eric: So many stripes.

Andrew: I think it was all about the balance. The balance was just out of whack in terms of wizards clothes versus Muggle clothes. Maybe they went too heavy on the Muggle clothes starting in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Eric: Yeah, and they just never recovered. I’ll agree with that.

Laura: I will say that Prisoner of Azkaban is the story where we start to see more of the characters outside of an academic environment. Why would you wear your school uniform if you’re not at school?

Eric: Well, going to Hogsmeade is still a school trip, and it’s next to the castle. I don’t know. Why wouldn’t you be in…? I think you would almost be protected or be favored if you were a Hogwarts student; all the Hogsmeade people want to sell to you, so it makes sense to me that you would show off or wear still your badge or something from Hogwarts when in Hogsmeade, at least.

Laura: Yeah, I’m reading a comment from Rachel in the Discord, who says, “In boarding and private education, the uniform policy is normally super strict for the academic week, but then you get freedom at the weekend. Although, if you’re still on school grounds, there’s rules as to what you can wear.” But it doesn’t sound like you’re necessarily required to wear uniforms at all times, unless you’re attending academic functions.

Eric: I think that’s what I’m striving for, yeah. Just a little bit more of the… okay, so you can wear plain clothes, but it’s to your point, Laura, at Christmas or in the evenings or whatever, but have it still follow a set of guidelines, and have it be nothing trendy made in the ’00s.

Andrew: All right, Laura, what is your change?

Laura: [laughs] So this is… I mean, it’s a change/gripe that I would make, and it’s that they started using the Priori Incantatem effect in it felt like every damn duel after the Goblet of Fire film.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: This is the very specific effect where when two brother wands try to fight each other, they can’t, and then they’re connected. And you see this in, of course, Goblet of Fire, where it’s appropriate, but then you see it happen again in Order of the Phoenix when Dumbledore and Voldemort are battling in the Ministry of Magic. They don’t have brother wands. This is, I think, just them recycling an effect that they thought worked really well and established consistency in fight scenes for the audience that maybe was more of a fan of the movie than the book and wouldn’t really know the difference, but it really bothers me because this is a very distinct thing in the books, and I actually want to read you a passage. This is from Goblet of Fire from the Priori Incantatem chapter. “Suddenly Harry’s wand was vibrating as though an electric charge were surging through it; his hands seized up around it; he couldn’t have released it if he’d wanted to – and a narrow beam of light connected the two wands, neither red nor green, but bright, deep, gold.” And what do they do every time they use this effect? They have red and green flames going out and meeting each other in the middle. Stupid.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, it’s very Gryffindor versus Slytherin.

Laura: Yeah, and it drives home again that stereotype of “One of these people is pure good; one of these people is pure evil.” It’s just not very nuanced.

Micah: I totally agree with this, and I think… I remember our conversation from a couple of weeks ago when we were going through all the fan-made films and just how great those battle sequences were, and then you look at something that literally has hundreds of millions of dollars in production, and they can’t get it right, and that just drives me nuts.

Andrew: [laughs] I think visually… I don’t know. I don’t know.

Laura: But see, that’s the thing. That’s where I went too. It’s like, of course they did it, because visually, it could provide some consistency in these battles between what are considered to be very powerful wizards, right? Like, they’re so powerful that they can’t overcome each other immediately, so their spells meet in the middle and they have to concentrate on mentally pushing the spell to the other person’s wand.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: It’s a visual way of showing evenly matched individuals, the loading bar, status bar of the wands.

Laura: Exactly.

Micah: In the Ministry, Dumbledore looks like he needed a pair of sunglasses because he was just…

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Yeah, I did not like that scene.

Laura: Oh, don’t even get me into the whole Pokémon battle they did in that.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Do you remember? I rewatched this scene the other night, and it’s like, Dumbledore is using wandless magic to ball up a bunch of water from the fountain and put Voldemort in it.

Andrew: Hey.

Eric: I think it’s cool as hell.

Andrew: Yeah, I really like that scene; I’ve got to admit.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Oh, and again, it looks great in 3D.

Andrew: [laughs] That’s not why I liked it.

Laura: I am so glad that as a culture, we’re getting past 3D.

Andrew: Yeah, Hollywood tried to make some more money at the box office. It didn’t really work out; thank goodness.

Micah: Meanwhile, Squirtle is in the background.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, exactly. Watching that scene, I felt like somebody was going to be like, “Pikachu, I choose you!”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Laura: But Dumbledore… there are very specific parameters set around this in the book. Dumbledore says they will not work properly against each other; if, however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle, a very rare effect will take place. And we see the effect take place during Harry and Voldemort’s final battle in Deathly Hallows, but they weren’t using brother wands anymore! [laughs] So it shouldn’t have happened.

Andrew: It’s a climatic… yeah. I think we all understand why they decided to stick with this effect and this look and this type of duel, but yeah, for book fans, it’s very frustrating.

Micah: Right.

Laura: And I will say, I was just reading Deathly Hallows to get myself more current on that, and reading over it, I was like, “Oh my God, is this an example of how a movie-ism influenced the book?” And I want to get y’all’s opinion here, because I think it is maybe a little vague, a little unclear. So when Harry and Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra and Expelliarmus at the same time, it says, “The bang was like a cannon blast, and the golden flames that erupted between them at the dead center of the circle they had been treading marked the point where the spells collided. Harry saw Voldemort’s jet green meet his own spell.”

Andrew: “Meet his own spell,” yeah.

Laura: So it sounds to me like this was maybe… because this sounds very different, and it should be different because, again, they’re not battling using brother wands, but it sounds very similar to the way this effect was portrayed in the films. It just makes me wonder if there was a little bit of influence there.

Andrew: Maybe. I hate to think that that type of thing occurs. We’ve talked about how actors potentially influence the writing of the books, so…

Micah: Well, green has always been associated with the Killing Curse, right? In the books.

Eric and Laura: Yes.

Micah: Okay. But it’s more so you’re saying they’re meeting right at the center, and it’s very similar to what we see happen in the final showdown.

Laura: Yeah, but then at the same time, it describes golden flames erupting between them, which is consistent with the book description of the first time we see Priori Incantatem in Goblet of Fire. So to me, it feels like the streams are being crossed here, a little bit, between book canon and movie canon.

Eric: Right.

Micah: And it’s also worth mentioning – I don’t know if one of our patrons wrote in about this – but the actual end scene with Voldemort kind of just… I don’t even know how to describe it. He just kind of evaporates into thin air. That always bothered me.

Eric: Instead of… yeah. It was a very important point in the book that Voldemort leave his corpse behind because he wasn’t special. He was just… in the end, he had a dead body like everyone else’s.

Micah: Well, Bellatrix had a similar effect, too, right? Where she kind of imploded…

Andrew: Disintegrated. That’s the word I’m looking for.

Micah: Yeah, there you go. That’s the word. And maybe that was just their way of killing off the evil side, but I just… I mean, it’s not like we haven’t seen the Killing Curse used in the films and the effect that that has.

Eric: Right.

[Ad break]

Andrew: Okay, we received some submissions from listeners as well; these cover the books and the movies. Micah, kick us off.

Micah: Yeah, so first off, we heard from Danielle about the movies, and she says,

“How the movies got less colorful as they went on. You can’t even watch the last two movies during the day because they’re so dark!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yep. Somebody mashed up every frame of every Harry Potter movie into one image, and you can visually see the films getting darker over time. As we make fun of here on the show from time to time, the cast and crew, when promoting each new movie, would say, “It’s the darkest one yet. It’s the darkest one yet.” And literally, it was the darkest movie yet. [laughs]

Eric: As somebody who’s run MuggleNet’s caption contest for 17 years now, I can say it’s grueling, pulling screenshots that work from the later Harry Potter films. I up the brightness by at least 150 each time – it’s insane – just to be able to see what’s on the damn screen. I’m pulling from the Blu-rays! It’s not a clarity issue; it’s the lighting of the scene issue. Awful.

Andrew: I just put a graphic into our rundown, and you guys can see how the movies start off brighter, and then as it goes on, darker, darker, darker. There’s one bright moment at the end; it’s when Harry is in limbo with Dumbledore. Other than that… [laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Oh, I love this feature that takes a screenshot or the predominant color of any one frame and then gives you all the frames of the movies, yeah. And it’s like, totally black.

Laura: Yeah, you can see right where Half-Blood Prince is. Everything is green.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Just like the cover!

Laura: Yep. [laughs]

Micah: That’s what it is, Andrew. Mary Grand-Pré had some influence on the last couple of films.

[Andrew sighs]

Eric: So the next one comes from Steph with a book complaint:

“I got super invested in the Tonks/Lupin relationship and their book death gets such minimal notice that I missed it altogether the first time I read through Deathly Hallows.”

I agree. Not only does their death feel cheap, it is not given the same amount of screen time as Fred’s and some of the other deaths that are occurring during those moments. I can see easily how someone might miss the fact that they died, and I’m sorry that you did.

Andrew: I think Rowling has implied before that that’s war. Things happen in a flash, and there’s not time to focus on all the death, each death.

Laura: Okay, this next one comes from Kaitlyn, and it’s a movie gripe:

“My absolute biggest critique: In Deathly Hallows – Part 2, Harry breaks the Elder Wand and throws it away rather than fixing his own wand first. It would have taken five extra seconds to include!”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah. I remember seeing this and being like, “What? Why?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: It’s edgy.

Andrew: Save it, yeah. All right, this next one is from Julianne. It concerns the movies.

“It drives me nuts that they didn’t include SPEW in the movies! It’s such an important piece of Hermione’s character development. She goes big but doesn’t necessarily go about it the best way, considering that she doesn’t really include the house-elves in her effort to improve conditions for the house-elves. But then, she seems to learn from this and do a much better job creating Dumbledore’s Army and make something really powerful happen. That development is completely missed out on in the movies.”

Laura: True.

Andrew: I agree. A TV adaptation, if that ever happens, they need to include SPEW, because there’s also just a lot to say there. Especially… it could also be a commentary on the Muggle world, what’s going on here.

Micah: Yeah, I think unfortunately, here it was just a lot to do with the fact that house-elves in general weren’t included in the movie, so it’s hard to include SPEW without the house-elves. More money. They didn’t have enough money for the house-elves. Pacing, all that stuff we hear so much about.

Andrew: Right, they had to give it all to David Yates to direct a billion Harry Potter movies.

Micah: That’s right.

Eric: Right, every time the same director gets retained, they get an up in their salary because it’s like, “Hey, I’m still doing good work.” And so maybe that’s why there’s not the same director for all eight films.

Micah: Well, speaking of pacing and character development, Issy writes in about both the book and the movie as it relates to Grawp’s existence.

“I love the idea of giving Hagrid some family, but Grawp is used purely in both the books and the films as a one-scene moment. His character is completely devoid of any development, and just an excuse to get them away from Umbridge when there were a million more inventive ways to do so.”

Eric: Hard agree with Issy here. Grawp, unfortunately, is useless.

Andrew: It’s good observation. I hadn’t thought about that before.

Micah: Isn’t Grawp in the final battle too?

Eric: I mean, he’s one of several dozen creatures in the…

Andrew: Yeah, like a background character.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. It’s not like he wins the war for them.

Andrew: He’s no Neville.

Eric: [laughs] Can you imagine if Grawp had the same kind of glow-up as Neville did?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: This one comes from Ericka. It’s a movie complaint.

“I can’t get over how they added Bellatrix burning down the Burrow in Half-Blood Prince. Half-Blood Prince is one of the best books, but it has made that movie completely unwatchable to me.”

Andrew: Well, I don’t know about making it completely unwatchable, but I know we’ve also been very critical of that scene that they added, and I remember, again, going back to what the crew has to say about decisions like this; they wanted to add in a little more fear, a little more darkness into the movie, and this was their way of doing that.

Eric: A feeling that the danger has come home, that it has really reached…

Andrew: Nowhere is safe!

Eric: It has breached your front porch. Yeah, thematically, I think it works for the reasons that they stated. I just wish I could see it; even the fire looks dark and gray.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, and also, don’t worry, because their house is just fixed in the next movie.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It’s magic. The whole thing’s held together by magic to begin with. It’s magic!

Andrew: It’s the cornfields protecting, though, I think.

Micah: The movie opens in a very similar way, right? Where they take out the bridge in London.

Eric: So cool.

Micah: So to that point about instilling fear, I agree. But again, when we’re talking about things being left out, this is another example of where, possibly, instead of spending time and money on burning down the Burrow, you could have been going back into one of the memories that were left out of Half-Blood Prince.

Laura: Oh, you mean like actually Merope Gaunt leaving baby Tom at the orphanage, and getting more of that? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, something like that, or Bob Ogden visiting the Gaunt home.

Laura: All right, this next one is from Angela. It’s a book complaint: “I wish we would have had more time on Harry and Ginny’s relationship growth.”

Eric: Yeah, there are certain things that the book does wrong with that, like omitting the three weeks of their relationship, the happiest time of their lives, but the movies do it even worse. The movies just totally botch her development, and it’s a huge crime.

Micah: Eric, aren’t you filling that void?

Eric: I am filling that void. It is an ongoing…

Andrew: Eric, people are asking. You’ve got to get that out already.

Eric: It’s been nearly two years, but by July, it will be finished.

Andrew: By July, all right. All right, George. I’m going to call you George R.R. Martin. [laughs]

Eric: I deserve that title. I deserve it.

Laura: Eric, do you think that you could share a small excerpt of your fanfiction on next week’s episode when we talk about fanfiction?

Eric: The first two chapters, which I’ve written, of the fanfic are available. I read them out loud. Our friends at Fanatical Fics Podcast, and I recorded that audio with them, and it’s actually on our Patreon. So I’ll just draw people’s attention back to that.

Andrew: Beautiful, wow.

Laura: Awesome.

Micah: Is it called “The Winds of Weasley”?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I will say, apart from George R.R. Martin being a much more successful writer than me, the comparisons are very apt, and I’m deeply hurt by that. But yes, it’s true.

Andrew: Eric is the first author to record the audiobook before the book is even finished. That’s a remarkable achievement.

Eric: [laughs] It was actually a great segment.

Micah: Yeah, what happens when it goes to your editor? You’re going to have to rerecord everything.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know. But nevertheless, it’s fun, and I am really seriously working on filling that void. The movies just obliterate all of a lot of these characters, unfortunately.

Andrew: All right, this next one’s from Jill, also concerning the book:

“It annoys me that JKR folded Snape into her theme of ‘love’ as portrayed in the books. JKR portrays many healthy kinds of love in the books, and Snape’s version of ‘love’ is not one of them. That kind of obsessive, single-minded devotion is unhealthy and shouldn’t be regarded as a redeeming character arc for him. He made a ton of bad choices and abused children along the way to his final moments as a character. Loving someone does not justify this. I wish JKR had a different character arc for him in the end. It’s a little twisted to see how so many people consider him to be a paragon of the ‘love redeems all’ theme from the books.”

Andrew: Interesting take there.

Eric: Love that.

Micah: All right, get ready, Eric, because Chelsea writes in on the book front about Book 5 Sirius:

“In Goblet of Fire, we see a Sirius who is loving, supportive, concerned, and an excellent role model and father figure to Harry. Book 5, we see a moody, adolescent, bitter man who is selfish and withdrawn. I know you have discussed this before and said it’s his lack of development as a person due to spending 12 years in jail. However, I can’t help to think it was just to distance the reader from Sirius, to soften the blow when he died. It would have been 100 times more devastating to have compassionate, fatherly Sirius killed than this distant, moody, selfish man. Personally, I would rather have had the lovable Sirius die without his character being blemished and deal with the devastation.”

Eric: I love this. I think it’s important that the book did highlight Sirius’s flaws and bring them to light in a very real way; I don’t think it’s unrealistic that Sirius had those very specific issues that Molly and them bring up in Book 5. But I think that Sirius was done dirty by the author. The decision to kill him did end up resulting in a lot of, I think, negative aspects being more prominent during the last year of his life. And I think that this is spot on because in Book 4, the joy that you get thinking about Sirius, literally in paradise, sending Harry a different tropical bird every week, writing to him, you just think, “Here’s a competent wizard who is living his best life and eluding the stupid policemen.” It just gives you a lot of hope, and Book 5 is a real downer, so I get that 100%.

Micah: Yeah, I would say… I mean, I know that Chelsea brings up the fact that we’ve made the argument that he spent 12 years in jail, but it’s also like he’s being sent right back to jail, and I think that has a lot to do with his attitude and his personality, right? He gets essentially locked down in Book 5, and then he’s on the run in Book 4, so it’s not like his life has changed all that much. He’s just in a different kind of prison.

Eric: Isn’t that life in general? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, but I think you can’t necessarily fault him for that type of behavior.

Eric: So this next one comes from Ali; it’s a book complaint.

“I’m currently rereading from the start, and all the fat-shaming is making me deeply uncomfortable. It’s pretty much nonstop in the scenes with the Dursleys for the first four books or so, which I find especially problematic because it’s used to (completely unnecessarily) underpin the negative characterization of Dudley and Vernon. I’m still hoping to read the books to my kids someday, but I will definitely be altering those descriptions as I go, because I absolutely don’t want them to grow up with the same internalized weight stigma I did.”

Eric: This may be one of the best responses we’ve gotten, total. It’s 100% fair and accurate, in my opinion.

Andrew: Yeah, I think this is one of those things that, if this series was written from scratch again today, elements like this would probably not be included.

Eric: Right. Roald Dahl does this a lot too; characters that are bad on the inside are described as obese and grotesque on the outside, and it’s a trope in fiction writing. I agree with you; it would not be written the same today, even if written by the same author, I think. There might be some more consideration there. But yeah, the early books, oh, all about Dudley’s double chin. All about it.

Micah: And you can probably, since she is part of the family here, add Aunt Marge to this as well.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Yeah. And who hasn’t had a double chin at some point? I mean, really.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: We’ve all been there. There’s nothing wrong with it.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think pretty much everybody has a double chin these days, too. It’s just impossible not to in the year of COVID.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. This last submission comes from Katie, and it’s a gripe about something not being represented in the films that we saw more of in the books. Katie says,

“The lack of sassy Harry in the films. So many great lines and moments that remind us that Harry is still just a teenager going through school, such as, ‘There’s no need to call me ‘sir,’ Professor,’ and ‘That’s my nickname,'”

… in talking about the Roonil Wazlib moment…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: … where he grabs Ron’s Potions book.

Eric: “Yeah, you know, it’s what my friends call me.”

[Laura laughs]

“All great moments that lead to him sassing and teasing Tom in the final battle before him having a very human death (which is another pet peeve from the movies). I think it would have made the films a little more appealing to some folks.”

Andrew: All right, well, lots to change for future adaptations of Harry Potter, book or movie. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, and I think it’s also right to say that we critique because we love, right?

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: We’ve had a lot of fun today. Obviously, some observations are more serious than others, but this is just part of doing critical textual analysis, y’all.

Andrew: Yeah, we criticize because we care. That’s a very good reminder.

Micah: Of course.

Andrew: And it’s a lot of fun to talk about stuff like this. Of course, we love the books and movies for many reasons, but that’s not as fun of a discussion. “What do you love about Harry Potter? Well, here’s what I love about Harry Potter.” Everybody knows we love Harry Potter in many ways.

Micah: I was serious about Americanizing the book titles, though.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: We’ll take care of it. We’re on it.

Andrew: If you, the listener, have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or send a voice memo to that email address using the Voice Memo app on your phone. You can also call 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. We have a Muggle Mail episode coming up in a couple weeks, and I’m sure we’ll revisit this topic then, and I think down the road, we’ll do another installment of this discussion, because there are so many elements to talk about. Like I said, we received many, many submissions from our listeners, so we’ll get to those in the future.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What two phrases do the twins bewitch Percy’s badge to say? Looking for two phrases from two different books; this is a really interesting one. We were talking about the Weasley twins on last week’s discussion, which I have to say was very well received; very happy about that. In Chamber of Secrets, the twins bewitch Percy’s prefect badge to read “Pinhead,” and in Prisoner of Azkaban, they bewitch his Head Boy badge to read “Bighead Boy.” So those were the two answers I was looking for. Entries by George’s Ear, who participated…

Andrew: Wow.

Eric: … and Swaggy Maggie were actually incorrect. They mentioned “Humongous Bighead,” not “Bighead Boy,” so sorry about that. Play again. But correct answers were submitted by… I mention only because of the cool usernames; I really want those people to continue submitting. But Suhas, JojoB, Ali F., Shannon, Dilesh, Kerost, Ellen, Ryan, Huntar, Irene, Hi Jason King, Stephen, Bort Voldemort, Kaitlyn Yang, Asuna, and others got the correct answer. Congratulations, everyone. And next week’s question: What is the British television series from 2003 which was directed by Harry Potter director David Yates and scored by Harry Potter composer Nicholas Hooper? Looking for the name of the British television series. And submit your answer over on the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: So to wrap up today’s episode, if you could take a moment to do the following, we would appreciate it, as they all help us continue to grow and run MuggleCast: Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to MuggleCast. Follow us on social media; we are @MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And finally, join our community of passionate listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Shout-out to all of our patrons, because without you, we truly would not be doing the show today. Listener support lets us spend more time in the wizarding world and less time doing boring Muggle things. By pledging, you’ll receive instant access to bonus MuggleCast, the ability to listen to us record live each week, early access to each new episode as soon as we finish editing it, our Facebook and Discord groups, our monthly Ask Me Anything videos, random fandom-related posts – I posted a very, very cool book I discovered in a used bookstore a couple of weeks ago; people were really liking the pictures I posted – and so much more. Check out all the benefits at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and thank you for listening to today’s episode. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #508

 

MuggleCast 508 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #508, How to Tell Fred and George Weasley Apart, and More Twin Talk


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: On today’s episode we’re going to be celebrating Fred and George Weasley by looking at their best moments in the series, and we’re going to ask ourselves, is it possible to tell the two characters apart? I would have said no. Eric is going to bring forth a compelling argument in which he says yes.

Eric: And it’s news to me! Not that we’re doing this discussion, but I’ve recently learned you can tell them apart.

Andrew: And we are hosting this discussion in honor of their birthday, which was April 1, so stay tuned for that in a moment. But first, I did want to mention – this doesn’t directly involve Harry Potter, but I thought it was worth mentioning to this audience – WB has struck a new deal with Regal Theaters, bringing the theatrical exclusivity window down to 45 days. So in other words, WB movies will run in theaters for 45 days before they can move to digital platforms. This is a big deal because that exclusivity window used to be 90 days. So we all remember this pre-pandemic, in that other world we used to live in, we would go see a movie. Let’s say it came out April 1. We wouldn’t see it at home, we wouldn’t be able to watch it at home for three months, and that was forever, so we had to go to the movie theater. Now the window has shrunk to 45 days starting in 2022, so this means… the Harry Potter angle here is that Fantastic Beasts 3 will probably hit HBO Max at the end of August 2022 because the movie is coming out July 15, 2022, so 45 days after that would be the very end of August. So I don’t think this is going to change when we see the movie; as people who podcast about the wizarding world it’s in our best interest to see it opening night. But it is good news if maybe you were considering… maybe you’re not high on the Fantastic Beasts film series or you are not eager to support J.K. Rowling’s endeavors at this stage, so instead of going to a movie theater, you can watch it on HBO Max.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: Yeah, just thought I’d mentioned that.

Laura: That’s awesome.

Eric: Before we get into talking about Fred and George, did any of you guys get any good April Fool’s foolings? Were you fooled by anything?

Andrew: There’s no time for that this year. There’s a pandemic going on.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I felt the same way. People still did it. News sites and everything, I think, still tried it.

Andrew: Yeah, some did. I think some, though, have recognized that this year and last year were not the right time to do April Fool’s jokes. Google just came out and made a statement; they were like, “We’re not doing anything this year.” They did this last year as well; they wanted to focus on the pandemic.

Eric: Their ones were good too. Didn’t they do the thing with Google Maps where they made it 8-bit or something?

Andrew: Yeah, they’ve done a lot of clever things. I mean, they launched Gmail on April 1, I don’t know, 2008 or something. That was their best prank ever.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: When we were all at MuggleNet we used to have a lot of fun with April Fool’s Day.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: I recall coming up with fake titles of books and J.K. Rowling’s next endeavor and doing a lot of really clever things that actually did get picked up by media, so they thought it was full-on legit, especially the prank we pulled… I don’t remember what year it was, but I remember we came up with the title of… I don’t know if it was around the time of Deathly Hallows and we were just coming up with our own Book 7 titles, but we did something like “The Lairs of Lady Po.” Do you remember that, Eric?

Eric: “Lady Po,” yeah, it was an anagram for… oh, what was it an anagram for? April Fool’s. That’s what it was.

Micah: Oh yeah, there you go.

Eric: So the April… [laughs] Yeah, “The Lairs of Lady Po,” and I got my roommate’s typewriter for it and took a picture with blood spatter on the page.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Andrew: That would convince fans.

Eric: It was like, “This will be her next…” Funnily enough, it was either before or after Casual Vacancy, when we knew that J.K. Rowling was getting into the mystery genre… or no, she wouldn’t have announced that. Nevertheless, I think we got it right that she was basically going to do a mystery after that, so good on us. But yeah, that was a good one. MuggleNet actually had a good one this year; they said that there were new HP Funkos being announced and it’s really obscure characters like Bem from Prisoner of Azkaban, I think.

Micah: Yusuf Kama.

Eric: Krum with the shark head and human body from the Goblet of Fire, so that was pretty fun. That made me laugh.

Andrew: Wow. There were a couple years – at least one year, maybe two years – where we pretended to shut down MuggleNet, and people were really upset.

Micah: Ooh, I remember that.

Andrew: [laughs] I think maybe one of the years we pretended that it was WB’s fault, like they forced us to shut down.

Eric: The other year we said we were rebranding as LeakyMug, that it was being permanent or something.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Yeah, we were merging the sites.

Eric: Yeah, people still bring that one up. I heard that one just the other day. I was like, “Oh, yeah.”

Laura: Y’all remind me, was “The Pillar of Storgé” an April Fool’s thing?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: From Jo? I don’t think so.

Eric: I don’t think she pulled a prank if it was. I think maybe it was one of those ones where they registered the patent or the copyright, and because people can look into that, you can figure it out.

Andrew: Yeah, it was one of the fake titles they registered, right?

Eric: I think so.

Laura: Okay, that makes sense. I feel like I remember us spending a lot of time on that. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, that rumor came from somewhere… now my memory is being jogged. Maybe she posted in her FAQ being like, “No, you guys. That’s not real. Come on.”

Eric: I think it was just a rumor on the Internet, and then she made fun of “The Pillar of Storgé” and then was like, “And it’s also not ‘The Mystic Kettle of Knackledork.'”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Right, yeah, she made up some others or something. Back in those days I think it was harder to tell what was real news and what was fake news; it seems to be much easier these days. Maybe people have just gotten worse at creating fake news. But also, we’ve gotten older.

Laura: I was going to say, as a culture, we’ve had to become more aware of what fake news looks like, right?

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: So I feel like a lot of us have become very eagle-eyed when it comes to that topic.

Andrew: Yep, media literacy. Very important.


Main Discussion: Fred and George


Andrew: All right, so let’s move into our character discussion. Today we’re going to talk about Fred and George Weasley.

Eric: Yes, these are the beloved characters, brothers to Ron Weasley and all the other Weasleys. They appear in all seven Harry Potter books. They’re the resident jokers, pranksters, funny guys in general, but you don’t need to look too hard to find that they share a lot of heart and positive traits that make up all of the Weasley family. So we’re all familiar with Fred and George Weasley, and that said, here is just a quick bio rundown. We do not actually have middle names for them, unlike other Weasleys we do have their middle names. Their birthday is April 1, 1978, if you subscribe to that whole year thing. Their House is Gryffindor. We do not know their wands or their boggarts either.

Laura: Ohh.

Eric: So there are still some things that I’d like to get answers for, but their Patronuses are both the same Patronus: It’s a magpie, which, according to the author, “We have a saying about them in the UK, ‘One for sorrow, two for joy,’ as you might know. Plus, they’re talkative thieves,” meaning the magpie, so a talkative bird. Sounds like a good Patronus for these guys who crack jokes all the time.

Andrew: Checks out.

Eric: Now as far as spouse goes, we know from Book 4 that Fred Weasley took Angelina Johnson to the Yule Ball. There’s that quite comical scene where he asks her out to the Yule Ball in front of Harry to show how easy it is to get a girl. But it turns out that Fred died in year seven, and actually, George Weasley marries Angelina, and they name their first child Fred in his memory.

Andrew: So how do we feel about this? Were Fred and Angelina dating outside of the Yule Ball?

Eric: I think maybe afterward. I think that it was clear that they have an attraction to one another. I think when Fred asks her out, the book says that she looks at him appraisingly, or approvingly; they have different meanings, but it’s one of those things. So I think that she’s interested. And as far as George marrying her, I think they probably shared a lot of grief after Fred’s passing, and they were perhaps one of the only two people who can understand what the other was going through, maybe.

Laura: Yeah. I think, too, we have to remember the context of them effectively being high school-aged when Fred and Angelina were dating, if they were even doing that. I’m sure we all have somebody that we dated in high school, and do you really care about what that person is doing now?

Andrew: No, I don’t.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Then again, I don’t even think I dated in high school, so I don’t have a real answer to this question. [fake cries] I just think it’s a little weird. I mean, does Angelina feel like she leveled up when she got with George after all instead of Fred?

Micah: Wow.

Eric: Yeah, she likes Weasley twins who don’t die.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, one of the things that could be a little bit awkward about this is that when Angelina looks at George, does she see Fred? That aspect of it might be a little weird at times.

Eric: I don’t disagree, except… that’s why I love that we are going to be talking about how you can tell them apart later.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Because they may look alike. In fact, somewhere in the books it’s said they’re identical down to “the last freckle.” Usually even identical twins aren’t that identical…

Andrew: Right.

Eric: … because things like freckles, that’s sun damage, or can be. Blemishes. So that’s really interesting. But I actually looked at the term for this, and it’s called “levirate marriage.” Storied history, mostly with religions where the women are not permitted to marry anyone after their husband dies, except for a brother of the husband. Very restrictive and weird. We know that Fred and Angelina weren’t married, but anyway, the whole term encompasses all sorts of marriages that are very similar. Marrying your brother’s widow, something like that.

Andrew: Little odd to me that this happened, but okay.

Laura: And I don’t really think this is that. I mean, these people grew up together. Angelina played Quidditch with Fred and George the entire time she was at Hogwarts. I could see maybe in the beginning stages it being a little awkward, but I don’t see that being a long term theme in their relationship.

Andrew: Right, right.

Eric: So George and Angelina have their child, Fred, and their daughter, Roxanne, as well. As far as job title… Fred and George, as we know, are really successful inventors. Now, after Fred’s death, Ron actually quits being an Auror and joins George in the running of the joke shop. And since we did this for Ron, I thought we’d read the star sign for Fred and George, being born on April 1.

Laura: Yes. “Being an Aries, born on April 1, your ambition and vigor are amongst your most defining qualities. In all matters of life, you are ambitious and hardworking. This quality is reflected in your current success, but more so is a testament to the levels of success that you wish to reach in the future. Those closest to you have witnessed your ability to motivate yourself and put in an endless amount of energy to reach your goals. You would be surprised as to how many admirers your hard work has earned you.”

Andrew: Wow. I mean, that’s accurate.

Laura: Yeah, to a T.

Andrew: But like I said last time, I think all horoscopes are designed to match exactly anybody who reads them, so… [laughs]

Laura: Yes, they’re intentionally vague and broad, right? But we can still have fun with them for the purpose of the discussion. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, clearly, the Weasley twins do fit well here.

Eric: I mean, ambitious and hardworking. Can you name anybody that’s more hardworking than the Weasley twins? They work on perfecting their joke shop for three or four years before we even go there.

Micah: Yeah, what really caught my attention was “how many admirers your hard work has earned you.” They have a lot of people who really look up to them. And we see it throughout the books, but none more so, I think, than at times when Ron talks about just how well-accomplished they are in opening up the joke shop, so… and just the various Hogwarts students. I think a lot of people look at them, especially in Order of the Phoenix, in terms of what they’re able to do, so they have a lot of admirers even if they don’t realize it.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And we really have to highlight, too, that they were working on launching their joke shop while they were full-time students, so they were busy boys for a few years there. And there was also the fact that even their mayhem was impressive to their teachers sometimes; I think it was Professor Flitwick who left part of their swamp in Order of the Phoenix because he thought it was a good bit of magic.

Eric: We did this for Ron, where we mentioned his introduction scene, and yet again, I think that the Fred and George intro is a really good showcase of their character. And it is, of course, also in Book 1, when Harry is looking for the platform. He spots the Weasley children, starting with Percy going through the barrier. And here’s the excerpt:

“‘Fred, you next,’ the plump woman said.

‘I’m not Fred, I’m George,’ said the boy. ‘Honestly, woman, you call yourself our mother? Can’t you tell I’m George?’

‘Sorry, George, dear.’

‘Only joking, I am Fred,’ said the boy, and off he went. His twin called after him to hurry up, and he must have done so, because a second later, he had gone – but how had he done it?”

So I think this just perfectly showcases their joking nature, as well as their ability to have fun with the rest of their family and the ability to really embrace their identical nature to fool people.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, you immediately get a sense of their personalities here, and adapted very well in the movie too.

Eric: So I know the Weasleys aren’t very well loved by some of the panel. I wanted to ask, Andrew, where do the twins rank in terms of the Weasleys?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I’ve always appreciated the comic humor that they add to the books. They’re not my favorite characters. I would probably put Bill or Arthur towards the top – or sorry, Arthur and Charlie towards the top of that. That could be a discussion for another day, though. But yeah, I put them somewhere in the middle of the list.

Laura: They’re definitely towards the top of my list in terms of Weasley preferences. I will say and confess – I feel bad about this – but when I think about Fred and George, I really do think about them as a package deal, and less as individuals. So I’m looking forward to this discussion, because I would like to be able to think of them as two separate people.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that.

Laura: But yeah, they’re definitely… I would put them in my top three for Weasleys.

Eric: Yeah, I think that’s fair. Again, just like Laura said, before today, I thought that it was pretty hard to tell them apart. And now that I can tell them apart, I still kind of prefer to think them as a package. And if that is the case, I would say they’re my favorite Weasleys.

Micah: Given the fact that we don’t get a whole lot of information on Bill and Charlie, couldn’t you put them together as a package deal, too, in terms of, hey, we just don’t know a whole lot about you?

Eric: Oh yeah.

Andrew: The unknowns. Distant characters.

Micah: Molly and Arthur, husband and wife, let’s pair them together. So Fred and George are not all by themselves. But I agree, at least the way that they were written, when I was first reading the series, I’ve always considered them to be a package deal because they always seem to be with each other. And I think that’s… it’s almost like we should have had somebody on the show who is a twin, or is a mother or father to twins, to talk about what this dynamic is like.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I just think that the comedic nature that they bring to the series is much needed at times, and so I would, just for that reason alone, rank them towards the top.

Eric: The reason I said they’re my top as a group is because I think together, they showcase some of the best traits of all the Weasleys. And I was thinking about this idea, and then I was like, “I should write this out.” So I did, and here it is. They’re like Arthur in that they like to invent things, and they tinker with things. They’re also very adventurous, like Bill, who studies in Egypt and does curse-breaking for Gringotts. They also carve out their own niche; they don’t necessarily march to an existing beat, and that’s like Charlie because he’s studying dragons. Nobody knows where he is, just vaguely in Romania. They also have Percy’s ambition, though it’s in slightly a different manner. They’re loyal to each other, the way that Ron is loyal to Harry, and they’ve got gumption, like Ginny. And I struggled with Molly because they’re afraid of her.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: But I would say that they’re also fierce in their approach at times when they need to be, so I think they get a lot of strength from Molly. So really, I think when we like the Weasleys, or we talk about qualities they like altogether, they’re not traits that aren’t shared by other Weasleys or that other Weasleys don’t have. But the twins seem to embody, I think, the full spectrum.

Andrew: That is really interesting and something I’ve never thought of before, and I’m wondering if this was Rowling’s intention? And I’m also wondering, are there any other characters? Are there any other Weasley members that do check all the boxes like Fred and George do? I don’t think so.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t think so either.

Micah: Certainly no middle child syndrome for them.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew and Laura: No.

Eric: I wonder if that’s because they split it in half.

Micah: Like a Horcrux?

Eric: Yeah, or to share the weight of being the middle children.

Micah: One characteristic that came to mind when you were talking about Molly… I would say Fred and George, for the most part, are protective of the family. We see it with Ron; it’s not as often. We definitely see it with Ginny. Maybe that’s one attribute that they have that is similar to Molly, but…

Eric: Yeah, that’s a really good point.

Laura: Something that I really appreciate about the twins is… everybody knows that I have reservations about Ginny’s character development in the books, but I feel like when we get to see those moments for Ginny, they’re usually through the lens of her interacting with Fred and George, or her referencing Fred and George in some way.

Eric: Ooh.

Laura: Like that whole… I think there was a chapter that ended on her saying, “Growing up with Fred and George, I know that if you’ve got enough nerve, you can accomplish just about anything.” And so it makes me wonder if in terms of temperament, if Ginny is most like the twins rather than her other siblings?

Eric: Yes, the twins definitely have a special relationship with Ginny. Even as far back as Chamber of Secrets, she’s going through some dark stuff, they don’t know it, but they try and comfort her. They’ll crack jokes. So they’ll do things just for Ginny to get her to smile and stuff. And I think there’s definitely… she clearly looks up to them, and they have a really interesting connection, I think.

Andrew: I’m wondering, are the twins the most entrepreneurial characters in the Harry Potter series? And maybe we can do this with these character discussions going forward. If we were to award them a title in a class yearbook… I don’t want to call them class clowns; that’s too easy.

Eric: Ahh.

Andrew: Are they the most entrepreneurial characters in the Harry Potter series? And keep in mind, if you say this once for these characters, you can never say it again for another character we talk about.

Eric: Okay, then I’m going class clown because…

Andrew: No, that’s too easy!

Eric: Yeah! No!

Andrew: Fine.

Eric: Most entrepreneurial… well, okay. Are they, though, to answer your question?

Andrew: I think so. I mean, they launched a joke shop while they were kids. I’m extremely impressed by that.

Eric: I don’t necessarily disagree.

Laura: I think that they are some of the most entrepreneurial characters, but you have to remember, Draco mended the Vanishing Cabinet and got a bunch of Death Eaters into Hogwarts. He could…

Andrew: I’m just thinking business-wise, though.

Laura: I mean, I don’t know. I feel like Draco shows a lot of smarts throughout the series that could put him in this category as well, so I don’t know if I want to call him that. I think if I was going to give them a school award, I would say most likely to be a standup comedian for each of them.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I figured it out. Laura, would you say – because entrepreneurial is something different than this other word I was thinking about – enterprising? Enterprising is being resourceful.

Laura: Yeah, that’s true. That could be more Draco.

Eric: Yeah, so I’m thinking definitely, as far as business-minded, that’s the twins. They start their own… we don’t know anybody else that starts… Hermione starts SPEW, which is interesting, but that’s more of social justice and sort of nonprofit, whereas the twins market their own line of products and have that going the last couple of books.

Andrew: What would you title them, Micah?

Micah: Most Likely to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: There you go.

Micah: It’s effortless.

Andrew: Most twinny too.

Eric: What?

Andrew: Most twinny.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, Parvati and Padma Patil.

Andrew: Well, they’re twinny, but are they the most twinny?

Eric: [laughs] You’re right. They’re in different Houses; that must mean that they have different personalities.

Micah: What I find hard about calling them class clowns is they’re not really in class with Harry. I don’t know, can you give them that designation without actually getting to see what they do in their own year?

Eric: Well, that’s…

Micah: Is anybody else funny in Harry’s year and we just don’t know about it? I don’t know. Maybe that’s getting a little bit too into the weeds.

Eric: No, I think that’s right. There’s those couple instances where the whole school witnesses it; they’ll act out in the Great Hall. Two instances come to mind: One is the school song that Dumbledore conducts like a funeral march because they’re really dragging it out, and then the other one is when Dumbledore introduces the concept of the age line for the Goblet, Fred just shouts, “You’re JOKING!” in front of everybody.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Just being disruptive, not really bowing to authority. And Dumbledore is always making eye contact with the Weasleys during his speeches. I think it fits. Class clown for me.

Andrew: All right.

Eric: But anyway, I’m glad we had that little preamble because here’s the answer. Here’s how to tell Fred and George Weasley apart. And this was mind-blowing to me, because just like you guys, I would always package them together. It doesn’t help that 95% of the time, they’re seen together, and they’re shown to do things like finish each other’s sentences and stuff like that. But I actually came across a couple years ago… I don’t know who it was. Somebody said to me, they singled out a twin and they were like, “Oh, I loved when Fred does this.” I’m like, “What are you talking about? How do you know which one it is?” And they said, “Well, you can absolutely tell if you look closely.” And it’s taken me several years, but I finally looked closely. So for the record, could you guys tell them apart? Do you guys have any sort of indicator before going in that there is a difference between Fred and George?

Andrew and Laura: No.

Eric: No?

Andrew: No. I, too, have seen them as a package, so I’ve never bothered to even think about it. I just assumed that they were actually the same and you can’t tell them apart. [laughs]

Eric: Right, right. I mean, the books don’t help with that.

Andrew: Very ignorant.

Micah: I would say maybe in Deathly Hallows, I could tell them apart.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Oh my God.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I mean, after George loses his ear. Come on.

Eric: Now, is that because…? Let’s be clear, Micah, is that because one of them dies and the other one lives? Or the other one has one ear?

Micah: No. One ear. It’s just very helpful.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Still dark, but I like dark humor.

Laura: Oh, Micah. You’re such a troll. [laughs]

Eric: Okay. Well, at least in the books, it turns out Harry can tell them apart by voice when they’re stuck in the fireplace.

Micah: Oh, like puberty? Like one hit puberty before the other?

Eric: Ahh, that shouldn’t be a thing. But no, they’re stuck in the fireplace at the Dursleys’, and there’s a point where it’s mentioned that Fred’s voice said something. And Harry is just noting that it was Fred’s voice, and I’m like, “Wow, they even sound… people who know them can more or less tell them apart.” And even though we read that quote from Molly on the platform where she was struggling, they all pretty much address the twins correctly. And Ron says things… in fact, a lot of the stuff we have from Ron’s early childhood, he’ll distinguish which twin turned his teddy bear into a spider and all that. The characters can tell. But here it is, here is the answer we’ve all been waiting for. Between Fred and George, Fred is the most likely person to take initiative, even if it’s in a joke. So for instance, here’s a main quote from [Fred]. “‘Hi,’ said Fred, reaching the bar first and counting his companions quickly. ‘Could we have… 25 butterbeers, please?'” This is when they go into the Hog’s Head. He reached the bar first; it wasn’t anyone else. So that’s…

Andrew: Right. Just like I’m considered the leader here on the show because I host it, and just like Fred, I always order all the drinks at the bar with all y’all’s credit cards, because I’m not paying for all those.

Laura: When you started that sentence, I was like, “Uhh,” and then you were like, “all y’all’s credit cards,” and I was like, “Yeah, there we go.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I’ll go get the drinks. I just won’t pay for them all.

Laura: Interesting observation here, though. You mentioned earlier, Eric, that Fred was born first.

Andrew: Yeah. Where are you going?

Laura: Well, he’s always been the leader. He’s always been first.

Andrew: Oh. [laughs] Does that mean they’re a leader if they were born first? Like, “I’ll exit the womb first”?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: No, of course not. But we know that these books are littered with symbolism, and I just don’t see this being a coincidence.

Andrew: Okay, that’s fair. Yeah.

Eric: I like that. I also like that it’s alphabetical. That’s how I can tell who’s older, it’s Fred then George, some of the times. But the other thing I’m thinking… I mean, even if you look at how many times they were mentioned, maybe due to being more active, but Fred actually is mentioned over 900 times in the whole series, and George is mentioned 731. So there’s just more going on with Fred.

Micah: Well, you’ve got to pay tribute. You have to pay tribute to Fred.

Eric: Yeah. Well, actually, that’s true. It’s a bit grueling, and I won’t get into this too deeply, but there’s a bunch of mentions for Fred that are “Fred’s body,” [laughs] talking about what happens to him after he dies and how the family is crowded around it, and it’s not great. So that accounts for at least 30 of these mentions. But anyway, so he is more of the leader; we’ll get into specific examples of that. But as a secondary personality trait, and the one that is most easy to distinguish Fred with, is that Fred takes things too far. He sometimes goes too far. He is more cruel, more often, to everyone, including his own family members. If anybody’s talking down on the Weasleys, and it’s one of the Weasleys, it’s going to be Fred. And he even picks on them. And there’s just so many examples in the books. I found almost too many examples of him just taking it a little too far, and we’re going to read some of these excerpts.

Andrew: So while the twins needed living beings to test their sweets on, Fred dropped the Ton-Tongue Toffee for Dudley, and the excerpt goes:

“‘Did he eat it?’ said Fred excitedly, holding out a hand to pull Harry to his feet.

‘Yeah,’ said Harry, straightening up. ‘What was it?’

‘Ton-Tongue Toffee,’ said Fred brightly. ‘George and I invented them, and we’ve been looking for someone to test them on all summer.'”

[laughs] So the key word there, like I emphasized, was “excitedly,” to Eric’s point about cruelty.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And then this other excerpt:

“‘I didn’t give him anything,’ said Fred, with another evil grin. ‘I just dropped it… It was his fault he went and ate it, I never told him to.’

‘You dropped it on purpose!’ roared Mr. Weasley. ‘You knew he’d eat it, you knew he was on a diet -‘”

Yeah. So yeah, Fred does get off on testing this…

Micah: Wait, Dudley was on a diet? Wow, the things I forget from Harry Potter.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I do vaguely remember that.

Eric: Yeah. I think Harry wrote it in a letter to them before they came, and then Fred sees this opportunity. Look, I mean, he says, “George and I invented them,” right? He gives his twin credit. But it was Fred who ultimately was like, “This is a good idea. I’m going to drop this, pretend it was a mistake, and we’re going to get our test results back.” There are so many examples of this. Fred actually “rescues” a salamander from Care of Magical Creatures class and the salamander eats a firework, just to see what would happen. Pretty sure the salamander is okay, but it’s stuff like that. Fred takes the lead on these things.

Laura: And I feel like we’re conditioned to hope and believe that the twins know where the line is, right? They have that whole bit where they talk about “We know where the line is. We might put a toe over it every now and then, but we would never actually do anything that caused any real damage,” which is possibly the optimistic way to look at it. But when you’re talking about these sweets and the chemical reactions they’re causing people, how can they know for sure that they’re not going to hurt people?

Andrew: No, they can’t.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, yeah, they try some of them on themselves. Obviously they’re not above that or are afraid of that. But there’s no way they should have done it to Dudley, who is also a Muggle, and therefore has different blood chemistry, blood work.

Micah: Well, also, doesn’t Hermione start to get pretty furious with them at one point for testing it out on younger students?

Laura: Yeah, they were testing the… what were they, the Fainting Fancies? On first years? [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, and they have… isn’t it Nosebleed Nougat? And there’s no immediate cure, so a bunch of kids are just… or maybe that happens once by accident. But yeah, I mean, George willingly goes along with the human testing element, and so there is blame to go around, but my point is it is Fred that led the charge there. And that’s just a theme that consistently shows up in the books.

Laura: Yeah, and I think it’s also indicative of the culture they grew up in. I mean, we’ve talked so many times before about how Hogwarts is a security nightmare, and there are lots of things about the wizarding world that are inherently quirky, if you want to be positive about it.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: So I don’t think that relative to the entire context in which Fred and George exist, I don’t think that they’re cruel, horrible people. I just think that they’re very much reflective of the norms of the society that they exist in.

Micah: It’s interesting you say that because as we start to go through these examples, I’m almost starting to think, is there a good twin and a bad twin? A left hand and a right hand?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Because that’s normally the case when you are dealing with twins in literature, right? There’s a little bit more of a dark side to one, a little bit more of a lighter side to the other. And I don’t think we spend enough time with Fred and George to really see that, but these examples are definitely starting to show some of that.

Eric: They do get more damning, that’s for sure. Here’s one. Laura, will you take this?

Laura: Sure. So this is an excerpt where they’re making fun of Percy. And it goes,

“‘Harry!’ said Fred, elbowing Percy out of the way and bowing deeply. ‘Simply splendid to see you, old boy -‘

‘Marvelous,’ said George, pushing Fred aside and seizing Harry’s hand in turn. ‘Absolutely spiffing.’

Percy scowled.

‘That’s enough, now,’ said Mrs. Weasley.

‘Mum!’ said Fred, as though he’d only just spotted her and seizing her hand too. ‘How really corking to see you -‘

‘I said, that’s enough,’ said Mrs. Weasley, depositing her shopping in an empty chair.”

Eric: That’s in Prisoner of Azkaban, when Percy is like, “Oh, Harry, sir,” all formal and full of himself. Sure, Percy can be taken down several levels, and it’s probably good for him. But after Molly has told the twins that that was enough, for Fred to then continue the joke, is my only point there.

Micah: Right.

Eric: That he goes too far. [laughs]

Micah: Well, and it also says that Fred elbows Percy. George just pushes him. We also have another example here, where Fred assaults Flint after attacking Alicia Spinnet, than speaks out when Madam Hooch penalizes both of the teams during Quidditch.

“Angelina was nearly thrown from her broom as Marcus Flint went smashing into her.

‘Sorry!’ said Flint as the crowd below booed. ‘Sorry, didn’t see her!’

A moment later, Fred Weasley chucked his Beater’s club at the back of Flint’s head. Flint’s nose smashed into the handle of his broom and began to bleed.

‘That will do!’ shrieked Madam Hooch, zooming between them. ‘Penalty shot to Gryffindor for an unprovoked attack on the Chaser! Penalty shot to Slytherin for deliberate damage to their Chaser!’

‘Come off it, Miss!’ howled Fred, but Madam Hooch blew her whistle and Alicia flew forward to take the penalty.”

Eric: So here’s an example. Fred threw his bat at the guy, and then complained that he got penalized for throwing his bat.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And he was looking out for Alicia, so we can’t really fault him for this, but I think it does add to your point here that he will go there if he needs to.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, we understand even broken bones in the wizarding world are really not big deals, and in Quidditch in particular, everything goes. There are moments of George fist-fighting and things like that, too, but this was a particularly egregious one where I’m like, “Man, mostly his complaining about it was the problem.”

Micah: But I love how the focus is on the front of his face where he broke his nose, or damaged his nose, but what about the back of his head? He just got a club chucked in the back of his head. His head is fine?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: I guess the back of his head is fine. He’s got a strong noggin.

Micah: Thick-headed Slytherins.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: So here’s a summary of just some other little things. Again, trying to drive the point home about Fred going too far or being the leader. This is when they’re talking about OWLs for the first time in Book 5.

“‘Kenneth Towler came out in boils, d’you remember?’ said Fred reminiscently.

‘That’s ’cause you put Bulbadox Powder in his pajamas,’ said George.

‘Oh yeah,’ said Fred, grinning. ‘I’d forgotten… hard to keep track sometimes, isn’t it?'”

So they were trying to talk about how the stress of exams was what did it, but nope, it was Fred doing an unprovoked attack on somebody’s pajamas? [laughs] Come on.

Laura: Yeah. I wonder… this kind of thing really strikes me as adolescent ribbing. I just feel like this is something that most people grow out of, and Fred just didn’t get the opportunity to grow out of it, to his credit, so…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, that’s possible. I mean, when you listen to all the stories of Ron being a kid… Ron says Fred once gave him an Acid Pop that burned a hole through his tongue. Can you say too far? [laughs] It’s an Acid Pop. You think there’s a little discomfort? That could have scarred Ron. And in fact, Ron’s whole fear of spiders – we mentioned this – is because he also turned his teddy bear into a spider. And it was also Fred who tricked Ron into nearly making an Unbreakable Vow as a kid, which may have killed them. And there’s even an excerpt – although I didn’t read all of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, there’s an excerpt in the margins, because remember, the original copies had all their school notes. And according to what Ron writes in those margins, Fred killed Ron’s pet Puffskein by using it for Bludger practice.

Micah: He was just getting ready for Marcus Flint.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, I believe everyone on this panel has a younger sibling. That’s correct, right? Didn’t you ever pick on your younger siblings?

Andrew: All. The. Time.

Eric: My younger sibling picked on me.

Laura: Aww.

Andrew: Oh, wow. Eric.

Eric: It went the other direction.

Andrew: Yeah, what happened there? Come on.

Eric: So two more here. It’s Fred who bewitches Percy’s prefect and later Head Boy badge. Fred also tells Harry that Ginny is into him, and keeps going on about Molly being attracted to Lockhart in Book 2. He mentions it a bunch of times. And later in Book 5 when Ron becomes a prefect, here’s how the two twins – to illustrate their differences – here’s how they take it.

“‘No way,’ said George in a hushed voice.

‘There’s been a mistake,’ said Fred, snatching the letter out of Ron’s grasp and holding it up to the light as though checking for a watermark. ‘No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect…'”

Andrew: Oh God. [laughs]

Eric: So yeah, that’s a little harsh, right? Somebody goes from “No way” to “Nah, this person is off their rocker.” I think it’s the same when Lavender starts dating Ron; they’re like, “Does she have a mental illness or something?” It’s just like, what?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: So that was our look at Fred Weasley. Now, George, I struggled to not define him as the opposite, right? So if Fred goes too far, George knows not to go too far. But that’s essentially what happens. George Weasley is kinder. He’s softer around the edges. He’s also a little bit more of a planner, more of a strategist. He’s more careful. And some of that does come from his very headstrong twin, but I feel like we have some examples of when he was nicer just for the fun of it. For instance, we meet George Weasley first. He’s the first twin we really properly meet. And he walks up to Harry, who he does not know, and asks to help him with his trunk. He says,

“‘Want a hand?’ […]

‘Yes, please,’ Harry panted.

‘Oy, Fred! C’mere and help!’

With the twins’ help, Harry’s trunk was at last tucked away in a corner of the compartment.”

Then,

“‘What’s that?’ said one of the twins suddenly, pointing at Harry’s lightning scar.”

So George is just randomly going around asking people if they want hands getting their trunk on the train. I don’t think that that is something that Fred would do.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It makes me wonder if George is maybe more like Molly than Fred.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: If we think about them in comparison to the adult figures in their lives, if you were to say of Arthur and Molly, which one do you think each twin is more like? From this conversation so far, I’m feeling like George is temperamentally more like Molly.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s interesting.

Eric: I like that a lot. And then Arthur, do we see Arthur lose his temper? I guess a couple times, right?

Andrew: Yeah, there’s probably a couple situations. I like this other example you have, actually, and it seems like you were more unsure about it. But when they are consoling Ron about Scabbers, it’s actually George who does more of the consoling. So the passage goes… it starts with Fred.

“‘Come on, Ron, you are always saying how boring Scabbers was,’ said Fred bracingly. ‘And he’s been off-color for ages, he was wasting away. It was probably better for him to snuff it quickly – one swallow – he probably didn’t feel a thing.'”

And then Ginny says, “Fred!” and then George says,

“All he did was eat and sleep, Ron, you said it yourself.”

So there’s not a super clear-cut difference here, but it does seem like George is the one who’s actually trying to be like, “Hey, look, he didn’t add much to your life anyway; he was just eating and sleeping,” whereas Fred was a little more brutal. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, Fred is evoking imagery of Scabbers being swallowed alive. [laughs]

Andrew: “A single swallow!”

Eric: [laughs] Which, I mean, he’s not wrong.

Andrew: No, he’s not wrong. But it’s probably not the best thing to say.

Eric: Yeah, well, no, and it re-traumatizes Ron because he’s just thought that… he’s now mentally picturing his pet rat that he’s had for years being devoured by the cat, which is exactly the thing that he wishes he didn’t picture.

Micah: You could also, though, look at George reacting to Ginny in this moment, too, and taking a step back after she calls out Fred, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

Laura: Yeah, that’s a really good point. I was thinking here, to George being more of the practical planner of the two of them, he’s still reminding Ron, “You didn’t like Scabbers, you’ve never liked him, but let me be a little softer about giving you that reminder than my twin was.”

Eric: Yeah, it perfectly illustrates how softer George is in these next two quotes from Book 4. Micah, you want to take these?

Micah: So the first example comes from when they’re writing to Ludo Bagman about him stealing their money in Goblet of Fire.

“As Harry watched, George shook his head at Fred, scratched out something with his quill, and said in a very quiet voice that nevertheless carried across the almost deserted room, ‘No – that sounds like we’re accusing him. Got to be careful…'”

Eric: So there’s George… this is evidence of I would say stratagem. George is like, “You can’t just come out and say, ‘You gave us leprechaun gold and stole our bet money,'” which he absolutely did. He’s going for a more measured approach as opposed to what Fred is doing because they are ultimately trying to get their money back.

Micah: Well, it’d almost be like if they were in person with Ludo, you would think George would be the one sitting down and having the conversation, with Fred pacing in the background ready to hit him over the head with his Beater’s club.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, actually, they do interact at the Yule Ball. Fred comes right up to Ludo and says, “Hi, Mr. Bagman, can we buy you drinks?” and Bagman is like, “Uh, no,” and leaves. So there’s Fred’s direct approach, versus George, “Let’s write him a letter” kind of a thing.

Laura: Yeah, and this is also George being smart and realizing that when you put something in writing, that’s forever, right? But if you have a heated conversation with someone one on one, all it is is their word saying “They accused me of stealing their gold,” but when you’re putting it in writing and making an official declaration, you don’t want to be quite that direct, because if things were to escalate in any way, you don’t want written evidence of your accusation floating around out there, so it’s very smart.

Micah: And then you also have, following the Triwizard Tournament, Harry giving his winnings to Fred and George. George says, very softly, “Harry, thanks,” while Fred just nods fervently at his side.

Eric: Yeah, that’s an extra “Thank you” after the original whole scene where he’s like, “Seriously, I’m going to flush this down the drain if you don’t take these Galleons.” George circles back and – this is on the last page of the book in Goblet of Fire – just circles back and gives an additional “Thank you.” And we know by that point that they’re not getting their money back from Ludo because he’s on the run and owes a lot of money to a lot of people, and it really means a lot to them. And so George, again, just takes the time to make sure that it is known, so definitely softer.

Micah: I just wanted to take a second here, though, to also acknowledge the relationship that Harry forms with Fred and George. He really does become a brother to them, and I think a brother more so at times than even Ron, and that’s kind of crappy to say, but it’s true. And I think this moment in particular… I know it’s a financial transaction, but I think it’s the meaning and the thought behind what Harry is doing because he’s laying the foundation for Fred and George to move forward and do what they want to do with their lives. And I think this moment in particular really just solidifies the bond between them.

Eric: That’s a great point.

Andrew: Yeah. I don’t think it’s cruel to say that Harry had a more brotherly relationship with Fred and George than Ron did, because when you’re growing up, like we mentioned a few minutes ago, you have these testy relationships with your brothers or sisters. You’re taunting them, you’re teasing them, it’s just what you do as kids. God, I used to do it all the time with my brother and sister. So I think it was completely natural for Harry to build this relationship with Fred and George, and like you, I loved this relationship between them. I love that Harry helped them set up their business. I’ve joked on the show a couple of times that this reminds me of Shark Tank, the show on ABC…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … where these investors invest in entrepreneurs. That’s what I see here with Harry. I just think it’s awesome.

Eric: Well, and not unlike those investors, Harry is impressed by Fred and George. He always has been. Here’s a real opportunity to bankroll them, but he just likes… I think it’s because they have the distance that he doesn’t have with Ron, because he’s so, so, so close to Ron all the time. Fred and George are just out there making changes in the world and doing great things, and Harry can just… he’s in a position to appreciate that. And then when it comes time and he’s got these Triwizard winnings, more money he doesn’t need – not to mention he probably sees it as blood money because Cedric just died – he sees an opportunity. And actually, he does tell them to get Ron better dress robes with it. I mean, that won’t cost all 1,000 Galleons, but he does spare a thought for Ron in that sentence as well.

Andrew: Well, at the Wizarding World theme parks, it’ll cost 1,000 Galleons.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: But in the wizarding world, like the fictional one? Yeah, probably not as much.

Eric: At the Wizarding World theme park and superspreader event, you mean?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Let’s start the rumor.

Andrew: Wow, so Eric Scull is here to say don’t visit the theme parks until COVID is over.

Eric: Maybe give it some more time, guys. Two different examples of possibly being more strategic for George, just wrapping up George here. So Fred is driving the flying car – ha ha, proves Fred is a leader – but it’s actually George who… you do what everybody does in the passenger seat, you’re the navigator, right? And it’s actually… this is before GPS; of course, it wouldn’t work even if they had it. But George is the one who’s telling Fred, “You’re going too far west” and “We’ll be there in 10 minutes; circle back around,” so he’s navigating. And this really speaks to George’s, again, just more planning nature. There’s something to it. I actually think he is almost like what Ron should have been as far as strategy. He’s got the smarts for the business. You know, the whole Ron thing with the chess set in Book 1 didn’t really pay off. But I think Ron and George are very alike in that way. Actually, another thing: Fred is sort of checked out in Book 5 when the Order is discussing the weapon and what it might be, and it’s just weird because George has this line where he says, “Maybe it’s something that can kill loads of people at once.” And like, fine, they’re all part of a discussion, but Fred, who’s in the room, is not saying anything. So it leads me to believe that George is actually really interested in pinning down what it is that Voldemort is doing and is offering at least some advice to further that goal. So I think George really is the more strategic of the two, and Fred is more like the act fast kind of guy.

Andrew: Well, when I do a reread of the books, which I hope to do soon, I’m going to be looking at these two very differently, and critically, for the first time.

Eric: Yes!

Andrew: Just like I said, I keep merging them together. One and the same. Two peas in a pod. But now I’ll try to read them differently.

Eric: That was the whole goal, honestly. But here’s a perfect example to send us out from the differences discussion. Who would like to read it?

Andrew:

“‘You know what?’ said, Fred. ‘I don’t think we are.’

He turned to his twin.

‘George,’ said Fred, ‘I think we’ve outgrown full-time education.’

‘Yeah, I’ve been feeling that way myself,’ said George lightly.

‘Time to test our talents in the real world, d’you reckon?’ asked Fred.

‘Definitely,’ said George.”

And they were off.

Eric: Call and answer, everybody.

Micah: Fred leading again. Before we wrap up this part of the discussion, I do think it’s worth mentioning just how well James and Oliver Phelps portrayed Fred and George in the Harry Potter movies, and just their overall involvement in the fandom. I don’t think there’s an opening that has taken place over the last 15 to 20 years that they have not been a part of; they’re always there. And they do a great job, honestly. And we were fortunate enough to sit down with Oliver Phelps, who plays George, all the way back in Episode 235, so if folks want to go back and give a listen, it was a fun interview. It also, actually, is the same podcast where we sit down with Harry Potter director David Yates.

Eric: Ooh.

Andrew: An eventful episode. All right, so we also asked our Patreon supporters at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, what are your favorite moments in which the twins are together? So Kati said, “Giving the Marauder’s Map to Harry. I think this happened mainly for plot reasons, but it was very cool of them.” It was. Iconic item in the series.

Laura: Steph says, “I love every time the twins exceed expectations and decide that they’re going to be part of the resistance. Some examples: using the Extendable Ears to spy on the Order of the Phoenix meeting, starting their own news radio show in the middle of the war, and using their shop to produce defensive supplies for the Ministry.”

Andrew: So cool.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: Stephanie N. also says, “Also, I love the swamp that the twins make too. I think it’s such good magic and I love that the teachers keep a little cordoned off to pay homage to them.”

Andrew: Getting back to Steph’s comment real quick, do you guys think that the Weasley twins would have tried to develop their own COVID vaccine and distributed it at Weasley Wizard Wheezes?

Laura: Ooh.

Eric: Or would they be on the side of the joke vaccine that makes more people…? Like it has fun intentions of being funny, but makes people distrust vaccines all the way more?

Andrew: Oh, gosh, I hope not. Well, maybe it would prevent you from getting COVID, but also you would turn green or something like that.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Okay, you’re right, because they’re always feeding people stuff that harms them.

Laura: Yeah, you get the vaccine and it prevents you from getting COVID, but when you get the injection, confetti bursts out of your ears. I could see them doing something like that. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, that’s cool.

Eric: Okay, that’s a good compromise for the worst possible scenario. [laughs]

Micah: Lance Dance says, “I believe the best Weasley twins moment is proving to their family, especially their mother Molly, that they can be just as successful if not more than their older brothers without any type of academic honors, such as being prefect or Head Boy or even graduating from Hogwarts. Up until they open the successful Weasley Wizard Wheezes in Diagon Alley, they’re often undermined of their remarkable abilities due to their carefree and even reckless behaviors in all of the books leading up to Order of the Phoenix. Even Hermione points out that although she disapproves of the contraband products they solicit at Hogwarts, she does note that the type of magic they are conjuring is exceptional. The Weasley twins are prime examples of how you can obtain success when you can combine your passion with persistence and hard work.”

Andrew: Indeed. Natalie B. said, “My favorite film moment was them disturbing the exams with Umbridge! Perfect way to leave the school! Ahaha.”

Laura: Yep, so true. Emily says, “My fave is when Fred and George are carrying food to the table and are using their wands and the cauldrons skid across the table, burning it and sloshing its contents everywhere and making an all-out mess, and Mrs. Weasley has to yell, “FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE! THERE WAS NO NEED – I’VE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS – JUST BECAUSE YOU’RE ALLOWED TO USE MAGIC NOW, YOU DON’T HAVE TO WHIP YOUR WANDS OUT FOR EVERY TINY LITTLE THING!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That might be my favorite moment too. That’s great.

Eric: That is such a kid and parent moment. They’re taking it an extra step.

Micah: Oh, yeah. And those are the two kids you don’t want to reach this stage because you just know everything moving forward is going to be a disaster.

Eric: [laughs] Well, it’s like their Apparating, right, too, where they Apparate everywhere just because they finally can.

Andrew: And I think we would all be in this situation, too, right? If we can finally start conducting magic whenever we want, we would want to use magic all the time.

Eric: Absolutely. It’s part of living.

Laura: It’s like when we all learned how to drive, right? When you first got your driver’s license, it was like, “Does somebody need something from the grocery store? I’ll go!”

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Right. “Don’t worry, Mom, I’ll go to the post office for you!”

Micah: Oh, you need a ride? Now it’s like, drive yourself.

Andrew: [laughs] Right. Get an Uber.

Laura: Yeah, now I don’t want to drive at all. [laughs] But back then it was very exciting.

Eric: Sara M. adds, for a group moment, “In the COS book when they think it’s absurd that Harry would be the heir of Slytherin and they go around saying things like ‘Seriously evil wizard coming through.’ It’s silly but a good show of support for Harry. Also, I love their involvement in the DA and how they support it wholeheartedly from the first. Also, love them on ‘Potterwatch’ in Deathly Hallows, fighting about their code names, Rodent and Rapier.”

Micah: And finally, Joseph S. says, “My favorite Fred and George moment is when, in Book 1, they get into trouble for bewitching snowballs to bounce off the back of Professor Quirrell’s turban. At the age of 13 they were literally pelting Voldemort in the face with snow. Legends.”

Laura: Yep, such a great moment.

[Ad break]

Eric: Coming off of our discussion on how to tell them apart and their successes together, we’ve got a segment in which we’ll be reviewing our favorite Fred and George quotes of all time. And that’s actually taking place in bonus MuggleCast, which will be recorded later and go live to our Patreon. But the fun segment we’ve got for the show is a Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes product game. That’s the other thing, is Fred and George… there’s so many things to talk about when talking about them. It’s a massive sort of just subject, and Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes and their products in their joke shops are another brilliant sort of aspect or facet to these already cool characters. And so I thought it’d be fun if we each pick an item from the Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes page on HarryPotter.Fandom.com and decide to gift it to one of our fellow hosts.

Andrew: First of all, shout-out to the Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes store in the Wizarding World theme parks. They are very, very good. I mean, just a really magical place, straight out of the movie. So many products that you can only get at the stores. Just really remarkable, if you haven’t been there yet. So my gift is to Micah, and…

Micah: Ooh.

Andrew: Yep. I would get you this Umbridge on a Unicycle gift. Now, this is actually in the theme parks; I’m not sure if you see it in the books and movies. But there is a rope going across the store and there is an Umbridge robot on the rope. Maybe it is in the store in the books or the movies. Yeah, it’s in the movies. And she’s going across and she’s yelling things like “I will have order” and “I really hate children.” [laughs] And Micah, I just like the thought of this rolling across your bedroom back and forth as you record MuggleCast. On silent mode as we record MuggleCast, but yelling at you during the week.

Micah: Nice. Well, I appreciate that gift. And in turn, Andrew, I actually have a gift I think would really do well for you, and that’s the Lucky Dip box. It’s kind of like a Loot Crate, and I just feel like it would be right up your alley. And you never know if you’re going to get something good or you’re going to get something bad, and I have no idea of what would be in this Lucky Dip box. But I just imagine you coming down on Christmas morning, opening it up, and there you have your vibrating broomstick, finally, inside the Lucky Dip box.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Excellent. Okay, sure. I’ll take it. This is like, yeah, this is the original Loot Crate box, it sounds like.

Eric: Well, Laura, judging by how this has turned out, my gift is for you.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: It is. I promise it wasn’t originally planned for someone else. This is actually something that is found in the Wonder Witch section of the Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes shop, and it is, of course, the Patented Daydream Charm, which is virtually undetectable and highly realistic. Gives you 30-minute daydreams, allows you to slip sort of unnoticed into… I just feel like we all could do with some daydreaming. I haven’t daydreamed in a really long time.

Micah: I think she already has something for that, but that’s okay.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: No, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt. Please continue.

Eric: So I think we all deserve a little fantasy every once in a while, and so I’ve gifted this for you.

Laura: Thank you. And in return, I have a gift for you, Eric. So I want to give you Weather in a Bottle. It’s a product that was sold in 1996, according to the wiki. It presumably held wind or water of some kind of weather that when unleashed would affect a small area around the bottle, and I just like the idea of this because it gives you the opportunity to create whatever ambiance you want.

Andrew: That’s fun.

Laura: And I know that sometimes Chicago winters can be a little bit brutal, so having the ability…

Eric: I could have good weather in a bottle!

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: Oh, that’d be great.

Laura: Yeah, you could unleash it on this particularly frosty days. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, that’s so kind of you.

Andrew: This reminds me of that science experiment as a kid where you would attach two soda liter bottles to each other and then you can make a water hurricane. Remember those?

Eric: Absolutely. 100%.

Laura: I do, yeah.

Andrew: That was so fun.

Eric: I wonder if that’s an intentional reference, because that is such an apt thing. Oh, also, and I got every one of us a gift for the group, so to speak. I got us all Headless Hats.

Laura: Ooh.

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Eric: So we can walk around and it’ll look like our head is missing.

Andrew: Fantastic.

Micah: Just like Fred.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Okay, well, if anybody has any feedback about today’s episode, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE, that’s 1-920-368-4453, or record a voice memo and email that to MuggleCast@gmail.com. We love hearing you, so if you do want to write in, you can write in if you want, but we would prefer a voice memo or voicemail so we can play it on a forthcoming Muggle Mail episode of the show.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: On the night Norbert is born, Hagrid makes the trio tea and offers them which food that they refuse? You know, the answer is not rock cakes. Over half the people, 14 people, guessed rock cakes. That’s wrong. The correct answer is stoat sandwiches, everybody.

Micah: Eugh.

Andrew: Blah.

Eric: Stoat sandwiches, another recipe that can be found on Bradley Bakes.

Andrew: But probably much better than just straight stoat.

Eric: Probably much better, yes. No, no, no. Stoats are actually like squirrels. Fun fact, the stoat is my Patronus.

Andrew: Oh.

Eric: Correct guesses who did get it right were submitted by I’m Malfoy; somebody named SpellieEllie; Suhas; Irene; Zack_Attack; Janine; kerost; and Bort Voldemort. Congrats to all of our winners. Next week’s question: We mentioned earlier that the Weasley twins bewitch Percy’s badge to say certain things. They do it twice. What two phrases do they make the badge say? Or badges say? Happens in two separate books. We’re looking for two phrases that the Weasley twins bewitch Percy’s badges to say. Submit your answer to MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch form.

Andrew: Well, a couple other reminders here. You can rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast. Follow us on social media; just search for “MuggleCast” on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. And finally, join our community of passionate listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Listener support lets us spend less time on boring Muggle things and more time in the magical wizarding world. So by pledging, you will receive instant access to bonus MuggleCast – and like Eric mentioned, we have a new one coming out this week – the ability to listen to us record live each week, early access to each new episode of MuggleCast as soon as we finish editing it, our Facebook and Discord groups, which are so much fun, and so much more. You can check out all the benefits at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you so much for supporting us; it goes a long way. All right, everybody, thank you for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura. Bye.

Transcript #504

 

MuggleCast 504 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #504, The Achievements of Women in Harry Potter


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We have a big episode today; we’re going to be celebrating the achievements of female characters in the Harry Potter series in honor of Women’s History Month. And to help us with this discussion today, we are joined by one of our listeners, Olivia. Hi, Olivia. Welcome to the show.

Olivia: Hi!

Andrew: Let’s get your fandom ID.

Olivia: So my favorite book is 6. I just really feel like that’s when I came to the series as an adult, and I feel like that’s really when everything started taking off. My favorite movie is 5 for kind of the same reason. [laughs] My Hogwarts House is Ravenclaw. My Ilvermorny House is Thunderbird, I think, but I couldn’t go check because that’s not there anymore.

Andrew: [tearfully] It’s gone.

Olivia: [laughs] And my favorite lady Harry Potter character is Hermione. When I was first reading the books as a kid, she was described as awkward with buck teeth and bushy hair and a bit of a know-it-all, and I was like, “Oh, that’s me!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Relatable!

Olivia: Immediately gravitated towards her.

Andrew: Awesome. Thank you very much for supporting us, and we’re excited to have you here.

Olivia: Thanks.

Andrew: We do have a couple of news items, actually. First of all, the four of us – the four MuggleCasters – did something very exciting last weekend and it’s going to be released this upcoming week, so keep your eyes peeled on our social media channels. We don’t want to share it yet because it’s not our announcement to make, but we appeared on another podcast, and you’ll be hearing that very soon. And we’ll talk about it more on next week’s episode. But again, follow us on social media, @MuggleCast on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, and you’ll see what we were up to last week in the coming days. Also, a little update on Hogwarts Legacy: We found out that when you start up the game and create your character, you will be able to create a trans person in the game. It’s going to have an inclusive character creator allowing players to choose voice and body type, unrelated to gender. The character creator will allow players to choose one of two options, witch or wizard, which will – wizard – which will put players in one of two dorms. This decision, however, has no bearing on what character is created. Voice and body type are not tied to gender. This is according to a new report from Bloomberg. And apparently, the people who are in charge of the game were a little hesitant to include this, but as of right now, this feature, if you will, these settings are available in the current build of Hogwarts Legacy, so it’s good news. It’s not the biggest deal because a lot of video games already do this, right, Eric? I know you called out Cyberpunk.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, it is a big deal for inclusivity. And the fact that it’s a new… especially given this franchise, right? This series, the fact that they’re allowing this level of customization of character is extremely important for representation purposes. But it is the hip new thing to do, like, again, Cyberpunk. But you said, too, The Sims allowed you quite a bit of customization over the years.

Andrew: You can really create any type of character you want in The Sims video games, and they’ve been focused on inclusivity over the past couple of years. And yes, I did invent The Sims video game; I am a billionaire. But that’s a discussion for another time.

Eric: [laughs] Follow him @Sims on Twitter and ask him all your questions.

Andrew: [laughs] I just say it’s not a huge deal just because some games already do this. It’s not like Hogwarts Legacy is forging a path here. But it is nice to see; you’re right.

Eric: Yeah, well, apparently it came out of the people who were working on the games’ growing frustration with some of J.K. Rowling’s comments. So they really fought to have this level of inclusivity and feature, and we’ll just see if it sticks.

Andrew: Does this change anybody’s opinion on buying the game, how they buy the game, whether or not they play the game?

Laura: No.

Eric: It’s not switched me from not paying for the game to paying for the game. But actually, this was a beacon of hope; this was a green light in the distance that makes me think there’s a better experience to be had with this game than previously thought, so I’m kind of excited to see where this goes.

Andrew: I am more with Laura. Laura, do you want to say why you feel that way?

Laura: Yeah, so first, I mean, I think it’s a great thing that is being included. I think that it does represent that there are people involved in the franchise who aren’t bigots. That said, this isn’t the hard work that needs to be done in order to… I don’t even want to say “rectify,” because I don’t know that you can rectify the damage, but become at least neutral, to have this franchise be representative of something that is truly inclusive. I don’t think that this alone does all of the work that needs to be done to make that a reality.

Andrew: Yeah, I agree with that.

Olivia: I agree.

Micah: The other piece of that, too, is that it’s not coming from the author herself, right?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And that’s something that came to mind for me. I probably would’ve planned to buy the game and play the game anyway, so this doesn’t impact my decision one way or the other, but I think it’s great that they are being more inclusive.

Andrew: Yeah. Look, I mean, features like this do help normalize trans people to a wider population. That is good, that is helpful, and that’s what we need.

Olivia: So like Laura and Micah were saying, I don’t really think that… the people who were going to buy the game anyway are still probably going to buy the game. It’s not going to make anyone not want to buy the game. And the people who weren’t going to buy the game, I don’t know if this would be something that would just push them over the edge, because like you were saying, it doesn’t come from the author. It’s still just coming from these developers, which is good, but not the push needed to make me want to go out and spend more money in this franchise.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: Exactly.

Andrew: Hogwarts Legacy will be released in 2022, so we still have a ways to go until it is released.


Main Discussion: Achievements of women in Harry Potter


Andrew: So let’s move on to our main discussion. Eric, do you want to kick things off?

Eric: Yeah, so this week’s discussion is about the achievements made by women in the Harry Potter series. So actually, March 8 is in fact International Women’s Day, which, we all may know, is a global day celebrating the social, economic, cultural, and political achievements of women. It’s also a day calling to action for gender equality. Just a good, good, good day to celebrate women, and that’s this week that our episode falls on. So we wanted to take a look at just the various female characters. I also envisioned this as a sister episode to our Mother’s Day episode of several years ago, Episode 368; we took a look at all the mothers of the wizarding world and how they made such a positive impact on the characters and swayed the series. So today, we’re going to be looking at just other women characters and how they affected the series through their actions not related to their motherhood specifically. So of course, the first one we do have here is related to motherhood: We have Lily Potter. We’re going to go in book order, and Lily’s biggest achievement that we’ve highlighted here is that she successfully saves Harry’s life. She dies for her son, and her sacrifice happens to invoke this ancient magic which thwarts Lord Voldemort, and it saves countless lives because of doing that. So she’s not only saving Harry’s life, but by that defeating Voldemort, she’s pretty much saving the world. [laughs] So, Lily Potter, everybody.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: It also sets motherhood as a really important repeating theme in the Potter books. And of course, we learn later that Voldemort was doomed not to foresee this particular magic because he never experienced a mother’s love, so he couldn’t conceive of what it was capable of doing.

Eric: Right.

Micah: Yeah, and I know we’ll probably talk a bit about Narcissa a little bit later on, but the whole ring theory, Sorcerer’s Stone, Deathly Hallows, in connecting the two points of Lily’s sacrifice and Narcissa’s sacrifice and the importance of motherhood, like you said, Laura, in this series is definitely an important one.

Eric: If we want to look at Lily again, she was given the choice to walk away. The thing is, Voldemort had agreed not to kill her, and she could have walked free. She would have been a widow and she would have been childless as a result of it, but had she any desire to self-preserve, it would be a very different book series. Or there wouldn’t be a book series, because Harry would be dead.

Andrew: Unless Lily decided to go back to Hogwarts in place of Harry to pay tribute to him. But that wouldn’t have been as good.

Eric: [laughs] Can you imagine Lily showing up on what would have been Harry’s 11th year and being like, “Okay, I’m going to take some classes”?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Very weird.

Andrew: So let’s look at Hermione, and we have a bunch of Hermione examples today. And actually, we’re saving a few of them for bonus MuggleCast, because Hermione is amazing and we just want to feature as many different women as possible. But in Sorcerer’s Stone, of course, at the end of the book, she solves Professor Snape’s logic puzzle. We have a little quote here:

“Hermione let out a great sigh and Harry, amazed, saw that she was smiling, the very last thing he felt like doing.

‘Brilliant,’ said Hermione. ‘This isn’t magic – it’s logic – a puzzle. A lot of the greatest wizards haven’t gotten ounce of logic, they’d be stuck in here forever.'”

That is so true, and a good reminder about life. A lot of people are a lot stupider than you realize.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Just keep that in mind as you go through life. But anyway, I really appreciate seeing her work through this puzzle, because I take one look at this riddle… and this might be a stereotype, but men are impatient. I’m impatient. I am so impatient. And when I looked at that riddle, I was like, “I’m out. I’m done.” I would turn around and go home and give up. Snape, you can take the Stone.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Olivia: I would also say, not just men, because I also look at that puzzle and I’m like, “I could sit here all day and not be able to figure this out.”

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Great, thank you for saying that. Let’s be lazy together.

[Andrew and Olivia laugh]

Olivia: It’s definitely a Hermione thing.

Andrew: Okay. Phew.

Laura: Yeah, no. And to be honest, I took a logic class in college, and I learned a lot, but it was single-handedly the most frustrating class I ever took.

[Andrew and Olivia laugh]

Laura: So yeah, I’m with Olivia on this.

Andrew: A logic class. I want to hear more about that sometime.

Laura: Ugh. I’ll send you the textbook.

Andrew: Okay. [laughs] But shout-out to Hermione here, because it’s a really great moment to see her work through this. And she actually works through it pretty quickly; I reread this passage in the book, and it’s no problem for her. It was great.

Eric: [laughs] Right. It definitely speaks to the need to be well-rounded and to not just be focused on one thing, and I think that’s a lesson we can all learn as well. Let’s hone a small set of skills, but also try and pick up skills here and there that aren’t necessarily directly in your wheelhouse, and you will succeed in life.

Micah: One question I did have about this, though, is do you think it’s easier for her to solve because it isn’t magic-related, and she’s coming from a non-magic family?

Eric: I think she has the attention… the only comfort that Snape gives in providing this is the instructions, because you presumably have everything you need in the little intro there on the slip of paper, right? But Hermione’s cool demeanor in the face of towering… there’s walls of flame and you’ve got to step through them; I think most people would just freak out about that. But she keeps her cool and is like, “No, we have everything we need; I’ve just got to focus.” So I think it’s her ability to focus more than anything.

Andrew: Yeah, and Hermione is very pragmatic, right? So I think that comes into play here. She’s the best of both worlds.

Eric: Yeah, she actually saves the trio – well, the rest of the trio – [laughs] Harry and Ron’s lives multiple times in the first couple books, so just huge shout-out. She’s a super powerhouse of a person.

Laura: Yeah, we’ve definitely joked on the show before about how the first three books could be retitled “Hermione Granger and the 15 times that I saved these guys’ asses.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Really does.

Micah: I was just wondering, maybe the Sunday crossword came into play here. And she was really good at it.

Laura and Olivia: Ooh.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Laura: All right, well, we’re going to look forward a little bit, specifically at Chamber of Secrets and Half-Blood Prince at Ginny and her role in the series. First of all, first and foremost, she survives her ordeal with Tom Riddle’s diary, a.k.a. a Horcrux she has all year, and even though it has significant impacts on her, she doesn’t allow her trauma to define her. Now, I will say, something that I’ve got to call BS on…

[Andrew gasps]

Laura: … is we don’t get to see her working through this. There’s just no way she doesn’t walk away from the events of the second book with significant trauma, and we just don’t really hear a whole lot about it. In fact, you could almost forget that any of that happened until Book 5 when she’s like, “Hey, bozo, I was possessed by Voldemort too.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Well, it makes me wonder why and how she was able to overcome that. I mean, we know that Hogwarts… we’ve joked before about how there’s a tremendous lack of psychological services provided to the students.

Andrew: Mental health nightmare!

Eric: There’s no grievance counselor. There’s no guidance counselor. There’s no any of this. And we don’t know, did Ginny rely on close female friendships? Did she rely on her mom? Did she rely on Hermione to help get her through this? There’s just no precedent. We don’t know how she did it. I think, obviously, that’s an oversight from Jo; she’s telling Harry’s story, but I would have liked to have seen it. But it is still equally impressive. We don’t know how Ginny did it, but the evidence is on the page; she did do it. She overcame this tremendous trauma. She almost had her entire life force sucked out to build a new Voldemort.

Olivia: Yeah, I would say we do get hints of it throughout the books, I think. So we don’t know, obviously, but I think that there’s enough. If you really read into what Ginny has been doing until she comes into prominence in Book 5, she comes into Book 5 with pretty strong female friendships, right? She already knows Luna, she’s clearly been friends with Hermione for a little while, and we see her relationship with her mom some. So she has a unique network, I think, that Harry doesn’t really get to explore or dig into much because he’s pretty self-centered, which makes sense.

[Eric and Olivia laugh]

Olivia: But we do get glimpses of that. And I think that it’s important to step back and say, “Hey, she clearly has been dealing with this in one way or another,” because she does come in as pretty healthy, and she does seem like she’s managed a lot of that trauma and moved forward. So I just think there’s a lot to explore there with her. Yeah, we just don’t have it on the page, so it’s just hard to know exactly what happened.

Andrew: This sounds like a perfect story for Potter-no-more.com. But I don’t think anything ever got written about her experience after, how she dealt with it after.

Laura and Micah: Yeah.

Laura: I think it’s also maybe a relevant social commentary to say women are often forced to deal with their trauma quietly and out of the view of the public, and this feels like it could be a commentary on that. Harry gets a lot of fanfare because he gets physically injured a lot, but Ginny was literally pouring her soul into a Horcrux and nearly died from it, but she doesn’t walk away with any lasting physical harm, right? I would imagine that would be a very heavy mental burden to bear. And because it’s not an impact that we see physically, I think that characters in the books, but also readers of the books, can move on from it fairly easily. And I think that that’s reflective of the experiences of a lot of women.

Eric: That’s amazing. Yeah, perfect call-out there. I mean, she’s forced to suffer in silence. Meanwhile, the whole school knows every little bit of Harry’s insecurities and failures, and everybody knows what he’s going through all the time. He’ll have an outburst in class and it’ll be the talk of the town. Meanwhile, Ginny is forced to recover in the background.

Micah: To Olivia’s point, though, there are moments where Ginny does try and bring this up. And I think probably the biggest one is in Order of the Phoenix when she’s finally able to break through to Harry, saying, “Yeah, you know what? I’ve been in this situation before; why don’t you try talking to me?” In Half-Blood Prince as well, when she gets on his case about following the words of a mysterious book. I think that’s another example of her trying to maybe express some of what she has gone through herself, but it’s definitely something that they can connect over as traumatic as those experiences were.

Eric: Right.

Micah: All right, next up is Fleur Delacour, talking about her becoming the champion from Beauxbatons for the Triwizard Tournament. And Eric, I know you have in here the movie really made Beauxbatons out to be an all girls school, but it is in fact coed. Nicholas Flamel attended the school, and it’s where he met his wife, Perenelle. And Fleur is the only Triwizard champion chosen by the Goblet of Fire during this particular tournament, and she’s deemed worthy enough to represent her school. So I mean, I guess it’s something that generally I haven’t thought back on, but the fact that only one of the champions that year was a female begs the question: During prior tournaments, how many were female?

Eric: Yeah, what was the diversity? And is the Goblet of Fire using the same metrics as, say, American businesses to choose candidates? [laughs]

Andrew: Is the Goblet of Fire sexist?

Eric: Is it? We don’t know!

Andrew: Next week, an interview with the Goblet of Fire!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I would hope it’s not. I would hope it has a different way of picking. Do we know how the Goblet of Fire…?

Eric: Well, it’s just… Dumbledore calls it an impartial judge.

Andrew: Okay, so not sexist.

Eric: That’s pretty much the only… well, if you believe Dumbledore and if Dumbledore himself is free of bias. We don’t know. But he calls it an impartial judge. Yeah, really the big deal here, the action item, the thing to talk about, is Fleur was chosen for a reason. She’s going to represent all of Beauxbatons. She beat out every other student. And in fact, hundreds of students are there, basically, after the choosing ceremony, to cheer her on and support her as their champion. So there must be more to her character on the inside, on the outside, that is very stunning for her to basically beat out all the other competition.

Olivia: She’s not really represented that great in the Triwizard Tournament, right? [laughs] She’s a little bit of, well, a bit of a dunce when it comes to actually being a great champion. But she’s also… I mean, just because she’s not the best champion does not mean that she’s not a good representation of her school or the best champion from her school, right?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: We’ve talked about this issue with Fleur before, where even when we see her again a couple years later, they call her “Phlegm,” and the Weasleys are very hesitant to invite her into their family. And it’s a big… there’s a lot of women hating women moments as it pertains to Fleur. But in Book 4, she’s just also loudly remarking about the differences and how [in a French accent] “Beauxbatons eez better,” and “This Great Hall is so extravagant, but not at all in comparison.” So it just really rubs Harry the wrong way, and I think rubs the reader the wrong way sometimes. Coupled with her scores, like you said, Olivia; she places last in the first task, she doesn’t finish the second task, and in the third task, Barty Crouch, Jr. comes in and Stuns her before, obviously, so she doesn’t win the third task either. To not even place in subsequent tasks, yeah, it’s not the greatest look, academically or otherwise. But I think that there is something there, and I think that she’s got tremendous character, and she’s got bravery and all the makings of a warrior and an accomplished witch in the wizarding world.

Andrew: Yeah.

Olivia: I agree. Next character that really comes out and has a lot of great accomplishments is Tonks. She’s a former Hufflepuff student, and she ascends to the rank of Aurors after rigorous training, and is one of the few women we know to do that. And she’s also really young when she comes in as an Auror. So I think that she’s a really interesting female character that doesn’t get full exploration, I think, in the books.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I looked up a list of all the known Aurors, because places like Harry Potter Lexicon were writing down every time they heard of or saw anything, both in the books and in the extended media. And there were 17 listed on the page, and 4 of those, including Tonks, are women.

Olivia: Wow.

Eric: The others being Alice Longbottom, and then two we’ve never really seen or heard of: Venusia Crickerly, and “Witch with eyepatch.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Olivia: Awesome. Doesn’t even get a name.

Eric: She was either part of the Advanced… yeah, I want to know more about witch with eyepatch, but…

Andrew: I saw her in the Goblet of Fire movie credits once.

Eric: Oh, I see, I see. Okay, cool. Was that the one everybody thought was Jo doing a cameo? Anyway.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But yeah, so 4 out of 17 Aurors that we know of are women. That’s not great odds. It’s a boys’ club, everybody, and Tonks is there. She stands out.

Andrew: Yeah, and it makes me wonder if it’s the results of gender roles from decades, centuries past that there aren’t more female Aurors, similar to how in the Muggle world we’ve seen less women in police forces, or in world leadership roles, etc. This, of course, is changing, and I would assume it’s changing in the wizarding world as well. But it makes me think that that’s what’s going on here.

Micah: It’s interesting that you say that, though, because we’re dealing with a series now in Fantastic Beasts where I feel like it is becoming more diverse, even though timeline-wise, it’s taking place before Harry Potter. So I’m thinking of Seraphina Picquery being the head of MACUSA, right?

Andrew: It’s a really good point.

Micah: Which probably should have happened in Harry Potter or subsequently after that, but it seems like it’s happening – what would that be – like, 70-80 years prior? So it’s a little weird.

Andrew: Right. Well, plus, Tina was an Auror, speaking of Aurors.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, what is the American equivalent?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: I agree with that. I think that nevertheless, Tonks really stands out. She’s got the right attitude. I think she’s the coolest person the Harry ever meets as of Book 5. He’s just like, “Man, who is this chick?” She’s really, really cool, and she gets under Mad-Eye’s skin [laughs] and adores him as a mentor. The Tonks/Mad-Eye relationship is one that I would absolutely read about constantly; she’s his protégée, and I think she really picks up a lot of what he lays down and does it in her own cool way, and also doesn’t sacrifice her personality. Although, I think she wishes she could sacrifice her clumsiness a little bit, to become an Auror. But we know she can’t do that either. But yeah, she’s just super interesting and super accomplished. It’s an amazing feat to become an Auror, and that’s what Tonks does. Again, like Micah said, at a very young age.

Eric: So this next achievement by a woman in Harry Potter is my personal favorite. It is Walburga Black.

[Olivia laughs]

Eric: It’s not what anyone’s expecting. Sirius’s mom defeats the Order of the Phoenix; I have this taking place in Order of the Phoenix. And the reason is that the portrait of Walburga Black, the portrait of Mrs. Black, is affixed to the wall in Grimmauld Place where the Order of the Phoenix has decided to make their headquarters, and not a one of them, not any of the members of the Order can figure out how to get this this absurd, vicious painting off the wall.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They can’t remove it. We’re talking about the brightest witches and wizards of the day. We’re talking about literally the people that Dumbledore hand chose to defeat the most evil Dark Lord of all time, and they can’t get a painting off the wall of a house that they’re using as their headquarters?

Olivia: I really like the headcanon that Dumbledore absolutely can remove that Sticking Charm and just is choosing not to the whole time.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s such an annoyance. It disrupts business. It disrupts the strategic planning everyone needs to do, the fact that they have to tiptoe around Mrs. Black…

Olivia: It’s so perfect. [laughs] I just love it so much.

Eric: She literally decreed that this portrait of hers was always going to be in the house that she was the matron of for all time, basically.

Andrew: I don’t know if we should be celebrating this, just like I don’t think we should be celebrating the next character. But I appreciate your passion, and your…

Eric: I think it’s an achievement made by a woman.

Laura: Well, yeah. And I think that we can talk about multiple truths here, right? It’s true that this is absolutely quite an achievement. Is this the sort of voice that we want to be continually subjected to every time we go to Grimmauld Place? Absolutely not.

Eric: Right.

Olivia: I think that there’s a lot more to dig into as far as Mrs. Black and all of her stereotypical characteristics that she unfortunately does bring to the books, but as far as having an accomplishment, I mean, she clearly ran that household with an iron fist, right? Her children, for the most part, fell in line, and she continued this longstanding tradition and really was the classic example of those old money passing down through lineage and all of that sort of stereotypes, which I don’t know if those… I wouldn’t necessarily view them as accomplishments I would like to see. But in certain circles or in certain worlds, I mean, she was pretty accomplished for herself.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, and I think this Permanent Sticking Charm is probably symbolic of, as you said, Olivia, her running this house with an iron fist and the fact that this is her house. And it’s funny.

Eric: Yeah, so young girls out there, if you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything. Just look at Mrs. Black.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Olivia: Oh, no.

Laura: Yeah, not the character that I would pick to be a role model for young girls.

Eric: Fair enough.

Andrew: All right, well, our next character…

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Umbridge.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yes, we’re going to celebrate her. Did that just trigger you all? That sound effect?

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge suck count sound effect plays]

Micah: Oof.

Laura: Little bit.

Eric: I missed it. I missed it so much.

Micah: How could we do this? We talked about how many times she sucked in the Harry Potter series. Now we’re going to lift her up?

Andrew: In honor of Women’s History Month, we are retracting all of those suck counts.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We’re clearing them all out. It didn’t happen. No, so Umbridge, she flies completely under the radar in her attack on Harry Potter. [laughs] This would be a good one for me to talk about, because I’m the person who would say stuff like this. But actually, Eric wanted to include Umbridge here. [laughs] Yes, she is a clever witch. She did a very good job accomplishing what she set out to do. But I would just leave it at that. [laughs]

Eric: Well, yeah, the problem is… so we have to be a little bit objective here as far as… is Umbridge a good person? No. Was Mrs. Black a good person? No, she was a crazy bigot. But in the honor of actually just celebrating women’s achievements, it is pretty terrifying that somebody like Umbridge, who’s the Undersecretary to the Minister for Magic, can tell the Dementors to go and suck out Harry Potter’s soul. Now, she ain’t even ever met Harry at this time, right? So she doesn’t know him. She is able to use the full force of the government to attack a child student in a Muggle area – Dudley could have died as well – and nobody at the Ministry knew that she did it. And we don’t hear about any kind of inquiry either afterwards, even after Dumbledore makes his great point at Harry’s trial about “Well, surely the Dementors are either under the Ministry’s control, or not?” We don’t hear about any kind of follow-up. And so really, the achievement here is for Dolores Umbridge being either as much of a nobody that nobody questions her, and as much of a somebody that she could get it done. Here’s a terrifying person who’s able to enact all of her most insidious plans and fly under the radar for it.

Micah: It’s hard for me to celebrate her, but I will say, if you’re just isolating her achievements and putting yourself in her frame of mind, she is able to become Undersecretary to the Minister. She is able to become Deputy Headmistress of Hogwarts and eventually take over the school. She is able to become Head of the Muggle-born Registration Commission.

Eric: Thank you.

Micah: So she is able to do the things that she sets her mind to, albeit in a very underhanded, devious, crooked sort of way. So I will just add that caveat to it.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, she knows how to manipulate the system. So that’s the thing. And I mean, when we’re talking about women’s history, it doesn’t mean that we can’t recognize people doing, to quote Ollivander, “great and horrible things.” Again, multiple truths. What she achieved here, she created, she wrote a role for herself, and she sunk into it perfectly. So that’s what I’ll say about that.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I don’t think… I know we’re celebrating women, but as humans, none of us are impervious to corruption, or selfishness, and the pulling of emotions and wants and needs and political ambitions. All of us are subject to that in this world. And so viewing Dolores’s political achievements here… I think in order to be in politics, you might have to make some of these sacrifices. Doesn’t justify anything Umbridge did, but I think that all of us as humans are familiar with the concept of what drives Dolores Umbridge, deep down.

Micah: Yep. And a lot of it seemingly from her backstory that we had looked at on Potter-no-more came from the fact that she was very just embarrassed and disappointed with her father’s lack of ambition for rising up through the Ministry, and that’s why she chose to take that path.

Eric and Olivia: Right.

Olivia: It mars most of her accomplishments, though, that she was accomplished because she was basically the worst person. [laughs] So it’s a really hard position to take because you understand that yes, she rose to power, and yes, she did these things, she had great follow through, right? This was her ambition and she did it. But it also comes at such a high price to her character…

Andrew: Right.

Olivia: … that it’s really hard to sit back and and say, “Yes, hurray, you did it,” when you know the truth of it.

Laura: Yep. Well, moving to something that’s a more positive representation, we’re going to talk about Luna and Hermione in Order of the Phoenix and how they work together to get Harry’s story to the press. I mean, Harry had no idea what he was in for.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: He was just sort of a pawn in this whole game of publicizing the true events of what happened at the end of Goblet of Fire. She’s really able to work with Umbridge’s deficiencies. Umbridge would never think to imagine that Harry Potter would do an interview with the Quibbler, right?

Eric: Right.

Laura: So there’s that. But there’s also the fact that Hermione is able to overlook her own biases and just realize, “Hey, you know what? Anybody who will listen to this story is good enough,” because we’ve seen that she was incredibly biased against the Quibbler earlier on.

Eric: That’s really it. It’s the working together with Luna – who she thinks, I think, is still quite off – but for the good of the wizarding world. Hermione is so personally offended by the lack of truth that’s getting out, and bites. She’s so fed up with Umbridge that she not only is so strategic with figuring out how to accomplish this, she puts all the pieces in play, but she also, in doing so, actually uses her one blackmail against Rita Skeeter. I think one of the components that really helps the story gain traction early on is that it’s written by Rita Skeeter, who, absurdly enough, the wizarding public trusts. And so Hermione selflessly uses her blackmail against Rita to get Rita to show up and write this piece. And I think that that is also a quality to be celebrated, is Hermione’s selflessness here as well as her stratagem.

Laura: Yeah, because Hermione here very well could have been doing the mental calculus of “Do I want to sacrifice this trump card right now? What if Rita goes on to do something horrible later, like, I don’t know, write a book called The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: But it really does speak to Hermione being able to think strategically about her place in the story and the placement of everyone else in the story and what’s going to be of the greatest mutual benefit to everyone.

Olivia: Right, she understands that this is the most important thing that could be happening right now, and how vital it is for them to be able to continue to move forward and to be able to continue to do everything that they’re going to need to do in the next several books, too, that this story has to be told.

Eric: Yeah. And for Luna’s part, she’s pleased as punch to really arrange this with her father, I think. And Xenophilius Lovegood, to his credit, too, is just thrilled for the scoop. But I think they are also on the side of good, so they understand that it’s important, and so for Luna’s part in arranging this with her dad, and the fact that they’re able to get it all together, really speaks to Luna’s good qualities as well.

Andrew: Yeah. I will also say it was refreshing to see two women work together in the series. I don’t know if you see that too often.

Olivia: One of the only ones that comes to mind is Molly and Tonks…

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Olivia: … and their relationship and friendship and the way that they strategize and help with Order of the Phoenix stuff.

Andrew: So it was refreshing to see two women work together.

Micah: Definitely. And one of the best just overall role models, I think, in the series as a whole: Professor McGonagall. Just, I think, probably a teacher we would all like to have had, somebody we can look up to, and she defends Dumbledore and Harry at great personal and professional risk in Order of the Phoenix, particularly in that “Career Advice” chapter.

Eric: Ahh, yes.

Andrew: That’s one of my favorite chapters in the series.

Eric: Totally.

Micah: Yeah, and I think it didn’t quite deliver on screen. And I know a lot of people were disappointed about that.

Andrew: What does, really?

Micah: I mean, there was a moment between the two… yeah. David Yates again.

Andrew: [laughs] Leave David Yates alone.

Micah: After cautioning Harry to not engage with Umbridge all school year, it’s Umbridge’s decision to sit in on his career planning session with McGonagall that really finally breaks the camel’s back and unleashes that inner tabby cat from inside McGonagall.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: And we know how much McGonagall cares for Harry. She puts her career really ahead of anything here; she says as much in this back and forth with Umbridge, if it’s the last thing that she does. And she’s also attacked later on in Order of the Phoenix, right? She takes a spell straight to the chest, and Harry sees it from up on the Astronomy Tower. So she’s really one of the last lines of defense that Harry and the students have prior to taking that hit during Order of the Phoenix.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, Hogwarts is sliding into totalitarianism and we do not know where it will end, so the fact that she chooses this moment to stand up to Umbridge… she may not keep her job, and Umbridge in a year or two could decide that she needs to die. I mean, you just never know how how bad this is going to get with Umbridge in control. And the fact that McGonagall openly defies her and talks about, “Oh, Dumbledore? He’ll be back very shortly, I think, and there will be no trouble for Harry to become an Auror and follow his dreams for…” What does she say? Like, “Whatever administration there is, regardless of the government,” and Umbridge is like, “You want to overthrow the government!” She’s like, “Damn straight, if it’s you in charge.” So I mean, just really dangerous waters that McGonagall… I guess this was the biggest Gryffindor moment, I think, for McGonagall here. She is all bravery. But it’s not like she hasn’t measured the potential consequences; she is still standing up to Umbridge here, and it is a sight to see.

Laura: Also think about the events of Deathly Hallows. And we know that conditions at Hogwarts were horrible, but it really begs the question: How much worse could it have been if somebody like McGonagall had not been there?

Andrew: I mean, yeah, the Battle of Hogwarts was a huge Gryffindor moment for her, and one of my favorite lines in the series is the whole “Man the boundaries! Protect us! Do you duty to our school!” So epic in the book and movie. And then, of course, everything else she does during the Battle of Hogwarts, and like Laura said, that book.

Olivia: Yeah, I just was going through and read back through the old Potter-no-more little description that they had written about McGonagall and found a lot of things that I had forgotten, including the fact that she had top grades in OWLs and NEWTs, she was a prefect, she was Head Girl, she was the winner of Transfiguration Today‘s Most Promising Newcomer Award, she was a gifted Quidditch player… she’s not just great in the eyes that we see her through, in the lens that we see her through with Harry and as the Deputy Headmistress. She rose to that through a long career of being outstanding. So I think that it’s just important to note all of the things that got her to where she was. It wasn’t like, “Oh, I’m just friends with Dumbledore, and so that makes me Deputy Headmistress.”

Eric: Right.

Andrew: This list makes me want to see a TV series based on the early days of McGonagall, following the early days in McGonagall, and there’s a lot here that she did.

Eric: Well, pitch it to Warner Bros. I hear they’re looking for…

[Olivia laughs]

Andrew: Oh yeah, they’re accepting pitches, right, yeah. I’m a writer, totally. [laughs] Says everyone in Hollywood.

Eric: So this next achievement… want to bring it back to Ginny here real quickly in the interest of not defining any one character by their trauma, although we talked about how Ginny got over the trauma, and that was the achievement we mentioned earlier. I also wanted to mention her prowess at Quidditch, and not to… if you think about the seven books and who the Gryffindor Seeker was during the Harry Potter books, duh, it’s Harry. But I actually didn’t realize this, but both in Book 5 and Book 6, Ginny makes, actually, the game-winning saves that give Gryffindor the Quidditch Cup for each year against Ravenclaw. In the first year, Book 5, Harry is banned from Quidditch by Umbridge, and so Ginny has to compete in at least the last two games. Against Hufflepuff, she takes the ten point loss and that allows them to still maintain their overall point count, and then eventually they defeat Ravenclaw. And then also, when Harry has detention during Book 6 for attacking Draco Malfoy in the bathroom, that’s of course the big, big final game of the year, where Ginny, again stepping in for Harry, brings the Gryffindor team to victory. And so we know from extended canon that Ginny will go on to play Quidditch professionally, which I think is badass, first of all, that Harry’s got such a celebrity Quidditch player for a wife. But it just really shows you that if you look closely in the books, things like the characters’ future, it was really there. It’s in the background, but if you look for it, it’s there. Ginny was an accomplished athlete, and this shows that.

Andrew: Totally.

Olivia: Definitely. Bringing up another character again, right, that we talked about when her relationships with Ginny and things, was Hermione. We’re getting towards the end of the series, right, where in Deathly Hallows she performs a super strong Memory Charm on her parents, completely erasing her from their lives for their own safety and protection, which is just… I can’t even imagine that sort of sacrifice that you’d make at 17 years old to decide that this is the best thing for your family, and that you’re going to be able to have the wherewithal to do this and to be able to walk away.

Laura: Yeah. And I have to say, I’m really glad that we actually got to see this in the movie. It’s not something that we got to see in the book; it’s something that we only learned about through Hermione piping up, or maybe it was Ron piping up about “Hey, we’re all making sacrifices here.” So it was really nice to actually get to see this offscreen moment portrayed in the movie.

Micah: Hurray David Yates.

Eric: Hey, you got a W there.

[Micah and Olivia laugh]

Laura: I think that it really drove home just what an impossible decision it was, and it’s, again, Hermione recognizing… in some ways, she can have a greater good mentality, which is really interesting when you consider it alongside the themes of the greater good that Dumbledore and Grindelwald were exploring in their youthful days, but I would argue that Hermione’s application is a lot more ethical.

Eric: Oh, absolutely.

Olivia: Right, she sacrifices something herself versus having other people make the sacrifice for the greater good.

Laura: Right.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, the love of a parent is something to be cherished, and she’s able to set it aside and go, “Look, because I care about them, I have to let them go.” And not only that – I don’t know exactly how Memory Charms work – but she has to erase every memory they have of her and every memory they’ve ever spent together, the vacations, the moments of parenting even back to her infancy, and remove the fact that they even have a daughter from their heads. So just the sheer amount, just the astronomical amount of specific… and then not damage their brains. We’ve seen one Memory Charm, a simple Memory Charm go bad, and Lockhart is in the hospital wing for life. So the fact that Hermione is able to do this, and then presumably, years later undo this, is insanely accomplished and worthy of an achievement in and of itself.

Andrew: All right, so next we have Narcissa Malfoy. She saved Harry’s life! No big deal. She told Voldemort that Harry was dead when he was very much just coming back from the dead, and Narcissa is instrumental in allowing Harry to emerge victorious from the second wizarding war. This was such a great redemption moment for Narcissa. So great to see. And as we mentioned at the top of this discussion, ring theory is on display here. We see Lily saving Harry at the start; we see Narcissa, another mother, saving Harry at the end. Just beautiful.

Laura: Yeah. I think, though… I mean, not to rain on this parade, but I feel like Narcissa’s motivation was because she wanted to save her son, right?

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And Harry was just a vehicle to allow her to do that. At this point in the book, it’s very clear that Narcissa is like, “Oh, screw all this Dark Lord crap. I just want to make sure that my family survives.” So she’s in full-on survival mode at this point. Anything that would have allowed her to save her son, I think she would have done.

Micah: Totally.

Laura: And yeah, I mean, it just shows, again, this theme of a mother’s love triumphing over all. Including your ideological leanings, apparently. [laughs]

Eric: Right, yeah. Well, she finally does the right thing, and that’s really the achievement that we all want to see as readers. [laughs] As people who care for Harry.

Micah: No, but we see her love for her son on display really throughout, I would say. Aside from this moment, let’s go back to Half-Blood Prince with the Unbreakable Vow that she forces Snape to make. It’s all for Draco.

Olivia: Absolutely. And another mother that we see throughout is Molly Weasley, coming in to kill Bellatrix at the end and save her daughter’s life.

Eric: Heck yeah.

Andrew: “Not my daughter, you-” bleep!

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Olivia: Probably a lot of people’s favorite line, yes. [laughs] Molly Weasley is really an interesting character as far as accomplishments is concerned, because talking about motherhood in this series, right? Mothers we see accomplish a lot of things. But Molly is, other than maybe Narcissa, one of the only mothers who really gets to raise all of her children all the way through for the most part, and all of her kids, honestly – except for maybe Ron – turn out to be a bit of a badass.

Eric: Whoa, Laura, will you accept that massive shade on that character?

[Olivia laughs]

Laura: I don’t disagree with that statement. Per our conversation last week, I think that Ron’s portrayal and subsequent history… I just don’t see how it exists in a vacuum. I think Ron was made to be a joke in the films in a lot of ways, and that has an impact.

Olivia: I think one of Ron’s biggest accomplishments is surrounding himself with powerful people, and being Harry’s friend and being Hermione’s husband, right? I think he winds up ascending to this level of accomplishment because of who he surrounds himself with. But I think Molly has just done a really good job of instilling good character and work ethic and love and so many characteristics into her kids, and I think that that is such a huge accomplishment for motherhood.

Eric: I completely agree. She’s very willful as a character, and no clearer is that will of hers than saying “Not my daughter.” Like, “You do not get to remove one of my children from this planet, Bellatrix. I will obliterate you.” And she does.

Laura: Yeah.

Olivia: And the daughter she wanted so badly.

Eric: Oh, “And after all that work! I gave birth to six other kids; you are not taking the girl!”

[Olivia laughs]

Laura: What’s interesting about this, too, just thinking about themes of motherhood and mothers not being able to be present for their children, this interaction… we didn’t know it at the time, but it makes Bellatrix’s daughter motherless.

Olivia: Ooh.

Laura: Now, I mean, we could have a whole conversation about what kind of mother we think Bellatrix would have been. But yeah, I mean, I think it also ties into the ring theory, because Delphi is not the only character that loses a mother at the end of the series. Teddy Lupin does too.

Eric: So I think that brings our accomplishments discussion to a close, everybody. Happy International Women’s Day.

Andrew: Excellent. Yes.

Micah: I do have a question, though, before we go on. And it’s not necessarily to put Laura and Olivia on the spot, though it kind of is. So when you were reading the Harry Potter series, what were your reactions? Not necessarily to these moments, but I’m just curious to female characters as a whole, in terms of some of the things that they did, and were they really brought to the forefront in a way that you were happy with?

Laura: Oof. That’s a big…

Micah: Sorry, that was a loaded question. [laughs]

Eric: It’s a great question.

Olivia: For me, I come at it in two different positions. So I read Books 3 and a half when I was younger, right around the time that they were coming out. And so at the time, I really identified closely with Hermione, because she was, again, a bit of a know-it-all, bushy hair; I felt like I could really relate to her character. And then the fact that she wound up becoming so close to these guys, that she really proved her worth, and all of those things. But then I didn’t come back to the series again until I was an adult, and I think I had a completely different perspective. I think I was impressed and proud with the way even though this book was shown through a male – the main character is a male – I really felt like there was a lot of really solid moments for women. I wish there was more. I always wish there were more. [laughs] But I think that the way Jo utilizes certain characters, especially Molly and Hermione and Ginny, and even McGonagall, really said a lot about who Harry was as a character, and what he valued looking at, the series as a whole.

Laura: Yeah, I think so too. And I think Olivia makes a great point there. It makes me think about how it’s repeated multiple times throughout the series that Harry has his mother’s nature. So we hear it again and again, yeah, Harry looks like his dad. But in terms of his personality, he’s most like his mother. And I think the fact that Harry leads the series with his mother’s personality, rather than that of his father, the person that he looks up to, I think, in a lot of ways – most especially in the first half of the series, until he realizes what a jerk his dad was – that really opens up the opportunity for him to be more embracing of those characteristics that are reminiscent of Lily. The series does a good job of showing female characters, with the exception of Cho Chang, through Harry’s perspective.

Olivia: Yeah, and Lavender Brown. I think those two characters…

Laura: Yeah, Lavender too. Yeah, which is so annoying because it’s like, what, teenage girls aren’t allowed to be idiots? Teenage boys get to be idiots all the time.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Right.

Laura: Nobody holds it against them. But yeah, it’s hard to say because I mean, I’ve read the series from age 11, I got the first three books for my birthday, and it felt like I got to grow up with the series. So I definitely most resonated with Hermione as a character when I was younger, just because she was the most obvious and available character to really relate to. But to Olivia’s point as well, it’s been really nice revisiting the series as an adult, because I feel like I’m able to relate to a lot of the other characters at this point with the time and distance that age provides. So I don’t know if that answers your question, Micah. It’s hard to say.

Micah: No, it does. I just thought it would be amiss to not ask that question given what we’re discussing, so thank you for those answers.

Laura: No, thank you for asking.


Game: Famous witches you never heard of


Andrew: All right, Eric, so you prepared a game for us?

Eric: Yes, so this game is, I think, a lot of fun. It’s sort of trivia based. You’re going to have multiple choice questions, but it’s about the famous witches that you’ve never heard of. So if you guys remember, before WizardingWorld.com, before Potter-no-more, there was the J.K. Rowling Flash website by Lightmaker. And in the – I think it was the upper right corner – there was this witch or wizard of the month segment…

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: … that J.K. Rowling would write about a… sort of like Famous Witches and Wizards Cards. It was like, “Here’s the witch or wizard of the month.” And so I have picked four witches that were featured on this section of J.K. Rowling’s original website, and I’m going to quiz you guys on what they are known for.

Andrew: All right, well, we used to worship this website…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … so I’m sure we’re going to get these answers correct, because we studied these very closely.

Olivia: Yeah, I’m just going to say, as a Ravenclaw and a guest, it was really hard for me to look at this and not go and look this up.

[Andrew, Eric, and Olivia laugh]

Olivia: I was like, “I really want to know these answers.”

Eric: All right, well, without further ado, here we go. Question one of four: Ignatia Wildsmith, 1227 to 1320, is known for which of the following feats? Did she found the Society for the Reformation of Hags? Is she a popular presenter of the Wizarding Wireless Network? Is she captain of the Holyhead Harpies? And did she invent Floo Powder? That’s Ignatia Wildsmith. What do you guys think?

Andrew: I’m going to guess it’s a big one, because this witch was featured on the website, so I’m going to say invented Floo Powder.

Micah: Yeah.

Olivia: I really want it to be that she founded the Society for the Reformation of Hags.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Olivia: I really want that to be the answer. [laughs]

Micah: To go off of what Andrew said, though, just given the years that are listed here, that’s what makes me think Floo Powder as well.

Laura: I remember the answer to this question…

Micah: Oh!

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … so I don’t know if it’s right for me to answer.

Micah: Of course it is. Do you not answer Jeopardy questions because you know the answer?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We can test your memory. Yeah, let’s see. What do you think?

Laura: Okay. Yeah, she invented Floo Powder.

Eric: She did.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Let me surprise all of you guys, though: All of these feats got a witch featured on this section of JKR’s website.

Micah: Oh!

Laura: Ahh!

Eric: All of these. So Honoria Nutcombe, Olivia, founded the Society for the Reformation of Hags. Gwenog Jones, also a witch of the month, is captain of the Holyhead Harpies. And the Wizarding Wireless presenter is…

Andrew: Laura Tee.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: … Glenda Chittock. So, kind of funny pun name there. So actually, funnily enough…

Andrew: She was great in Wicked.

[Eric and Olivia laugh]

Eric: So Ignatia Wildsmith did invent Floo Powder. Question two: What is true about Artemisia Lufkin, 1754 to 1825? Is it that she established the Department of International Magical Cooperation? Is it that she lobbied hard for the Quidditch World Cup to come to Britain? Is it that she was the first female Minister of Magic? Or is it all of the above?

Andrew: Whoa.

Laura: I feel like she was definitely the first female Minister of Magic. I don’t know… off the top of my head, I cannot recall one way or the other on these other two items.

Micah: The all of the above is tempting, you know?

Laura: It is.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right, usually it’s there… yeah. I’m going to say, A) Established the Department of International Magical Cooperation.

Olivia: I think all of these go together really nicely.

Andrew: True.

Olivia: So I am going to say all of the above.

Laura: Yeah. YOLO.

Micah: I’ll say she lobbied hard for the Quidditch World Cup to come to Britain.

Eric: I love the variety, you guys. It’s great. Yes, I was not smart enough to do three truths and a lie here. It is all of the above.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: So we’re all right.

Eric: Oh yeah, if I included an “all of the above” in a four-thing prompt, it’s all of the above. But Artemisia Lufkin, the first female Minister for Magic. She’s really impressive and did all of this. This comes both from J.K. Rowling’s website featured witch of the month and later from Pottermore. There’s a segment on Pottermore we’ll be referencing in our bonus MuggleCast about all of the Ministers for Magic, and she goes into more detail, such as about the International Magical Cooperation and getting Quidditch to Britain. So, very good stuff. Very good job, everybody. Question three: What is Bridget Wenlock known for? Is it that she was the first landlady of the Leaky Cauldron? Is it that she first established the magical properties of the number seven? Is it that she’s the author of the “Enchanted Encounters” in-universe book series in Harry Potter? Or is it that she’s Chieftainess of the Warlock’s Council?

Andrew: I’m going to say established the magical properties of the number seven. That’s a fun one.

Laura: Agreed.

Micah: Yeah, I like that.

Olivia: I was going to go with the Chieftainess of the Warlock’s Council, just to mix things up.

Eric: I appreciate that. The Chieftainess is Elfrida Clagg, and Fifi LaFolle is the author of the “Enchanted Encounters” series. You guys were actually correct; Bridget Wenlock is the first person who established the magical properties of the number seven.

Andrew: Mm, excellent.

Micah: And Melissa was the first landlady of the Leaky Cauldron, right?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Melissa Anelli. Actually, if we’re talking about the pub in London, it was Daisy Dodderidge. So, final question: Jocunda Sykes did this in her lifetime. Did she make a fortune selling household cleaning potions, which turned out to produce more mold? Did she fly her broomstick across the Atlantic Ocean and was the first person to do so? Did she write the bestseller “My Life as a Muggle” after giving up magic for a year, and is she married to the celebrity gardener Tilden Toots? Or is she the founder of the Society for the Support of Squibs?

Andrew: I vaguely remember this one about flying a broomstick across the Atlantic Ocean and was the first to do so, so I’m going to go with that. I don’t know if it was her, though.

Micah: I thought you’d go with Toots, Toots.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I went through a dumb phase where I would call myself Toots on the show. It was really stupid. I was trying to move past that, Micah.

Micah: Oh, but we never forget.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I honestly don’t remember this one, so I’m just going to say wrote bestseller “My Life as a Muggle.”

Micah: I’m going to go with the Squib.

Laura: I’m going to agree with Laura.

Eric: Okay, so Daisy Hookum wrote the best seller “My Life as a Muggle” and is married to Andrew.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Idris Oakby was the founder of the Society for the Support of Squibs. The household cleaning potions fraudster, I don’t know if this is a reference to – was it Martha Stewart? – and her jail time, but that witch was Erica Stainwright. She was disgraced for her criminal acts.

Micah: Stainwright. I see what she did there.

Eric: Yeah, it’s a very sellable name. Very TV advertisement – what’s that shop from home channel? – kind of name. But in fact, it was… Andrew, you’re right; Jocunda Sykes flew her broomstick across the Atlantic Ocean, sort of the Amelia Earhart of the wizarding world. She was the first person to do that.

Andrew: Excellent.

Micah: Well done. I will say, I love the fact that pretty much all these answers relate back to some witch in the series.

Eric: Yeah, even if they weren’t in the original seven books, there was some serious effort back on the original author website to honor these achievers. So it felt very fitting to do a game segment based on that, and work it into the episode for our International Women’s Day.


Discussion: Male pen names


Micah: Cool. Well, about to wrap up the discussion, but we thought we couldn’t have this discussion about International Women’s Day and Women’s History Month in the Harry Potter series without mentioning the author herself. And it goes without saying that it is no small achievement to write the most successful book series of all time. But one piece of information that I’m not sure all of our listeners are aware of is that when she was looking to publish Sorcerer’s Stone, J.K. Rowling faced a situation that I don’t think is unfamiliar. She was asked by her publishers to not use her full name. So instead of it being Joanne Rowling, it was shortened to J.K. Rowling. And that just came to her from her publishers, because they thought that it would sell better to both boys and girls. If she had her name as just Joanne Rowling, they thought the series wouldn’t appeal as much to boys. And so we know that obviously, the series did extremely well, but I’m wondering, is this a surprise to us that even in the mid to late ’90s, this kind of mentality existed? And was this the publisher being sexist? Or was he just being realistic in terms of focusing on what he’s paid to focus on, which is how well the series is going to do? Or is it a mix of both?

Olivia: I think it’s a mix. First of all, it’s not surprising. It’s still something that we deal with all the time today, as far as in a lot of different mediums. Books, probably not as much, I would say right now, but definitely… I mean, even just thinking about TV shows and things like that, I don’t know if anyone’s ever tried to get a male friend to sit down and watch Gilmore Girls. It’s going to not happen. [laughs] It’s a great show for all sexes, but it doesn’t matter, because the name impedes people thinking that there’s room for them there, which is frustrating. So I think it can be both, right? It’s a sexist mentality that allows for this practice to continue, but as far as practicality of getting it in the hands of as many people as possible, maybe not the worst decision.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: It’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? If you only ever put out bestselling stories with either male-sounding or neutral-sounding names, and those are the only ones that become successful, then you’re feeding into the stereotype, right? If little boys don’t have anything else to choose from, then of course, it’s going to breed that kind of mentality. But it is hard. It’s kind of like what came first, the chicken or the egg type situation. So I think it’s really complicated, especially placing myself in the time period, to know what everyone’s mentality was and how well-meaning they might have been trying to be. I think this mentality does still exist today, and like Olivia said, I don’t think that it would play out just like this today. But women, in particular women of color, are discriminated against in this way all the time, whether it’s from somebody seeing your name on a job application or existing in your day-to-day life as somebody who can be perceived as female on social media, this type of discrimination absolutely does exist. Speaking personally, I have the experience of having had a male colleague very earnestly and genuinely trying to be helpful recommend to me that I use a male-sounding name when communicating for my job to basically make people not give me as hard of a time.

Eric: Uh, what?

Andrew: Wow.

Olivia: I had a really similar experience.

Laura: Yep.

[Laura and Olivia laugh]

Olivia: I don’t use smiley faces or exclamation points in my emails, and it really throws people; they really like to comment on it. They’re just like, “I’m not sure if you’re okay, or nice, or whatever.” And I was like, “I don’t think any male colleague has ever had to experience that.”

Laura: Nope.

Micah: Wow.

Andrew: Well, that’s frustrating. And thank you both for sharing that. Clearly, we have work to do.

Micah: One other thing that J.K. Rowling mentioned in the same article where she’s talking about having to shorten her name, she said, well, after the initial success of Sorcerer’s Stone, she became extremely well known, did a lot of interviews, won a lot of awards. So the cat was out of the bag, the fact that she is obviously a female author, and clearly that did not impact sales of the series moving forward. So I also found it interesting that when she did decide to write another series, she chose to write under the name Robert Galbraith, again, going that route. I don’t know if that was something that was told to her to do or she just made that decision on her own.

Olivia: I was going to say the same thing. I was like, “How interesting is it that she did this, rose to prominent fame as herself, right, as a female author, and then went back and when she decided to write under a pseudonym, she chose a male name?”

Laura: Somebody in our Discord actually brought up a really interesting point. It’s from Iris Tinkerbell. They say, “Fun side note: In Germany, the books were published under Joanne K. Rowling from the very beginning.”

Andrew: Hmm.

Olivia: Interesting.

Micah: That’s interesting.

Laura: Yeah, I had no idea.

Andrew: Props to that publisher. So if you have any feedback on today’s discussion, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. You can also send us a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com; we will have another Muggle Mail episode in about two weeks. Coming up in bonus MuggleCast today, available on Patreon, we will discuss more achievements of Miss Hermione Granger.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch!

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What did Fred turn into a spider when Ron was three? Correct answer is his teddy bear. And it turns out with the more greater inclusivity over on MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch, now that we’ve opened it up for everybody and broken down the barriers, we had over 88 people submit their entries this week.

Andrew: Nice! Thanks, everyone.

Eric: Yeah. Impossible to read a list of everyone’s names, so we are going to say, like we used to, correct answers were submitted by the following people, or including the following people: Algebra Einstein; Andrea; Anna; Ashley; Big Mac; Billy; Bort Voldemort; Brenda; Broc; Brody; Buff; Caitlin; Caleb; Camilla; Daniela; Eleanor; Five_o_farmer; FrumpyButSuperSmart; Greta; Gujaanie; HallowWolf; Landon; Laura; Lumosnox; Luna; LunaLovegood; LUNAtic…

[Laura and Olivia laugh]

Eric: … Mariel; Mega Edge; Mercy; MGB; Morgan; Nate; Nicole; Ning; PicketWicket; PinkSpaceFrog; PotterPeep1591; PricklyWallflower; Rachel; Rebecca; Robbie; Suhas; Taylor; Tracey; Trace; Unsurprisingly, Slytherin; and William B.

Andrew: That sounded like slam poetry. Good job.

Eric: Honestly, I’m going to get really rhythmic with it. I’m going to start rapping.

Laura: [laughs] We’ll give you a beat next time.

Eric: Yeah, you guys come up with that. That will amazing.

Andrew: Oh my gosh. Good idea.

[Laura laughs]

Olivia: Rap all the names.

Andrew: It can be to the seven-word summary song. I miss that.

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

[Olivia laughs]

Andrew: It’s this one. It actually could work.

Eric: [raps] Hannah B.; Irene; Jenn; Jenna; Juna; Katie…

[Olivia laughs]

Micah: There you go.

[Seven-Word Summary music ends]

Eric: … Kevin; Kristin; Elizabeth; Ellen… okay, those were some others. Anyway, thank you to everybody who submitted.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Next week’s question: Name this famous female campaigner for breaking the Statute of Secrecy; she’s been imprisoned several times for her blatant and deliberate use of magic in public places. This was another one of those witches, you guys. It was a famous witch of the month over on the old JKR website.

Andrew: All right. Well, Olivia, thanks for coming on to today’s episode. We really appreciate it. You did a great job and you took the lead on a couple of these characters, so thank you for that as well.

Olivia: Thank you for having me. It was really exciting.

Andrew: You are so welcome. And Olivia is one of our supporters at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Actually, one of our benefits at the Slug Club level is the chance to cohost MuggleCast with us one day. There are lots of benefits at Patreon.com/MuggleCast, including access to our live streams, early access to MuggleCast, bonus MuggleCast, a new physical gift every year, and so much more. So again, that’s Patreon.com/MuggleCast, and thank you for your support. It’s the reason why we are a weekly podcast. Also, again, follow us on social media; we are @MuggleCast on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Cool announcement coming up this week, so keep your eyes peeled. And we would also appreciate if you left us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast. Thank you in advance; it helps new listeners discover us. And last but not least, thank you for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Olivia: And I’m Olivia.

Andrew: Bye, everyone.

Everyone: Bye.

Transcript #502

 

MuggleCast 502 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #502, All The Ways Hogwarts Is A Security Nightmare


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We have a big episode today. After years of occasionally touching on the subject – laughing about it – we’re going to run through every security and safety issue at Hogwarts. It was just time to get it all out there to prove the case and to laugh and cry about it all. But before we do that, there is a little news item to mention. We here at the show have been concerned about the fate of Lavender Brown. The books left it open ended – the final book did, I should say – and the movie, it was a little more clear in the movie. She looked like she was dead, but we didn’t know for sure. And then Pottermore – now Potter-no-more – came along and they published character profiles, and they had one for Lavender, and it said, “Fate: presumed dead.” And we were like, “Presumed dead? This is J.K. Rowling’s website. Shouldn’t she know?” So then we started calling it out – I think I wrote about it on my site Hypable – and then that section disappeared!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Didn’t say if she was alive or dead. Just nothing. Well, now people have noticed that in the popular iOS Android game Wizards Unite, there is a page for Lavender Brown, and it says, “A member of Dumbledore’s Army, she tragically died during the Battle of Hogwarts.” Now, I know this is Wizards Unite; it’s not canon, technically. But I feel like they’re probably working off of some sort of behind-the-scenes database with all of the canon information, all the officially approved information that they can publish in the game, right? So is this confirmation?

Eric: This might be as close as we’re going to get.

Micah: Agreed.

Laura: I agree. I still… justice for Lavender, though. They did her dirty.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Like, come on. We’ve been wondering about this for years, and then finally, instead of it being a big announcement, a solemn recognition of what happened, they’re like, “Let’s just put it in Wizards Unite.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Let’s bury it.”

Laura: “She’s dead.”

Andrew: Last sentence in her character bio.

Laura: “Dead as hell.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It is an appropriate news story, though, for the discussion we’re about to have on Hogwarts being a security nightmare. Students just die in battles that are hosted on the school grounds. I think honestly, though, they’re saving Lavender for the upcoming spinoff series; it’s going to be a big reveal. She’s basically the Michael Myers of the Harry Potter series.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh my gosh.

Micah: You never really know if she’s dead or not.

Andrew: Oh, fun.

Laura: That’s a great idea.

Andrew: I’m going to take this as canon because I feel like that’s some sensitive information that I think they would need to pull from some sort of behind-the-scenes, like I said, database with all the canon info.

Eric: Yeah, they can’t announce a new Lavender Brown spinoff series while this information is in one of their games.

Andrew: Yeah, Wizards Unite just can’t go out there and claim Lavender Brown is dead without being sure.

Eric: Right!


Main Discussion: All the ways Hogwarts is a security nightmare


Andrew: So let’s move to our main discussion now: all the ways that Hogwarts is a security and safety nightmare.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: Thank you, Linden, for making that sound effect. So we started talking about this on the show probably two, maybe three years ago. This idea had entered my head because I was at a Halloween party in Chicago and I was dressed as a Hatstall student, like I just couldn’t decide which House to be in so I was wearing gear from all four. And somebody decided to start talking to me about Harry Potter, and he was bringing up all the ways that Hogwarts was a security nightmare. I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is so funny,” and then I brought it to MuggleCast. And it’s really resonated with listeners, but we’ve never actually spent an entire episode on it. So it’s an important discussion because for decades, the students and the teachers at the school have been lied to. “Harry Potter is in danger? Put him at Hogwarts. It’s safe there, totally!” they claim.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Major threats afoot to the larger wizarding world? Oh, keep all the kids at Hogwarts. It’s fine; no problem. That’s the safe place for them. Threats within the school? Within the school? Oh, keep the kids in school. No problem. It’s totally fine. Don’t worry, parents.” Even Hagrid, remember that one time, said Gringotts was the safest place in the world for something you wanted to hide – except perhaps Hogwarts. So we’ve been misled this whole time. You know who had it right? Dobby. Remember when he said, “Harry Potter must not go back to Hogwarts”? “Harry Potter must stay where he is safe. He is too great, too good, to lose. If Harry Potter goes back to Hogwarts, he will be in mortal danger!” Dobby warned us so early on about the staircases and the Forbidden Forest.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: So Dobby wasn’t talking about the looming threat of Slytherin’s monster.

Andrew: Nope.

Eric: He was just talking about Hogwarts’s natural state as way too dangerous.

Andrew: Exactly. And we will talk about Slytherin’s monster; that is one of the biggest security nightmares at Hogwarts.

Eric: Obviously, yeah.

Andrew: But he was also talking about the staircase. That was actually a deleted scene.

Micah: I don’t know how I feel about this, because isn’t Dobby part of the security nightmare that Harry encounters in his second year there?

Andrew: Whoa.

Micah: Doesn’t he take some action that injures Harry?

Eric: Yeah, the Bludger.

Micah: Could have killed him?

Andrew: Don’t you… well, we will talk about Quidditch being a problem, but that wasn’t Dobby’s fault. I mean, it was, but it’s not his fault they play Quidditch.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s like security nightmare inception.

Andrew: [laughs] And Harry actually caught on to the fact that Hogwarts was a security nightmare by the end of his time there. He said in Deathly Hallows – Part 2 to Snape, “It seems despite your exhaustive defensive strategies, you still have a bit of a security problem, Headmaster.” See? So there’s been some clues over the years that Hogwarts was a total mess; we just really didn’t catch on until more recently. But that’s the thing; you grow. You live and learn. So we have 23 here.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: And I’m sure we’ll have some others that spin off of these. Let’s start with security nightmares 101: moving staircases at Hogwarts. We’re introduced to these early on. Why do the staircases have to move?

Eric: It’s fun.

Laura: It’s magical.

Andrew: It’s not fun.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s like train tracks, right? They’re made to be switched so that you can have more efficient transportation. Now, I will say what I don’t understand is why one of these moving staircases, if I recall correctly, has a missing step.

Eric: Yep. A trick step.

Laura: Yeah, why?

Andrew: Ugh, my gosh. We have 24 now.

Eric: You will twist an ankle. That is a health and safety nightmare.

Andrew: Well, and how about this? How about a warning that the staircases are going to move? Is there any sort of warning, like a little “Alert, alert, they’re about to move, hold on”?

Micah: The portraits, right? I mean, they’re not doing anything else.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, they should… I mean, do they move at certain intervals? Is it random? Because when you’re on a monorail or a train or a plane, what do they tell you before takeoff or the monorail starts moving? “Please be seated. Please hold on to the railing; it’s about to move.” And then what happens when you’re on the subway and you’re not holding on to anything and the subway car starts to move? You fall backwards. You look like an idiot. This is what would happen with the moving staircases. This is what does happen! And Hogwarts doesn’t tell us this, but I am sure that at least three students a year fall off the stairs and fall to their deaths because of these moving staircases.

Laura: Is this your Bill Maher “I don’t know it for a fact, I just know it’s true”?

Andrew: [laughs] Yes, yes. I don’t know it for a fact, but I just know it’s true. Students die on these staircases.

Eric: [laughs] The staircases as we commonly think of them are more of a movie-ism, in my opinion. I think it’s one of those things that J.K. Rowling really liked and may have embraced in later books, but I think the textual basis for the staircases just straight up moving… let’s not forget that’s how they get to the third floor corridor, because they omitted the whole trophy room scene, or the Midnight Duel scene, so that was a convenient movie-ism. But also, the actual textual basis was the line about staircases on Harry’s first day of school: “There were 142 staircases at Hogwarts: wide, sweeping ones; narrow, rickety ones; some that led somewhere different on a Friday…”

Andrew: There you go.

Eric: “… some with a vanishing step halfway up…” So it’s not that the staircases would ever move while you’re standing on them; that’s ridiculous. But the idea that the configuration of Hogwarts internally is changing, so that a staircase would just happen to put you out somewhere else, that sounds more like a transporter beam than moving… yeah.

Micah: This sounds like it’s a psychological nightmare to me…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … especially for young students that are trying to get to class, especially first years. They’re trying to make sure they’re on time, they know where they’re going… all these staircases doing different things, taking them in different directions, what kind of impact is that having on their mental health at such a young age?

Eric: I think it keeps their wits about them. It keeps their wits; they allow themselves… they’re learning valuable life lessons, like having their bearings and figuring out where they are from other landmarks and not the same old set of staircases.

Micah: If that landmark is in the same place every day.

Eric: Well, that’s true; the suits of armors move too. Maybe that’s a… [laughs] you can get lost. Here’s something that’s pretty much exactly as it appears in the books and the movies: the fact that Hogwarts is located right next to what some call or have called the “Dark Forest,” the Forbidden Forest. This is a forest containing endless dangerous creatures. Students are told to stay out, but we know that has the effect of only increasing their interest in taking a look. There’s no gate. There’s no security. You can just walk right in, and not only that, but due to the proximity of this crazy dangerous dark forest, the students are then given detention in the forest. So one of our listeners Feryal brilliantly points out, “Third years cannot go to Hogsmeade without written permission, but first years can go into the forest of crazy creatures under the supervision of Hagrid? The man who sees Acromantulas as teddy bears?” We’ll get to Hagrid. I’m sure there’s a whole list of Hagrid as a security nightmare on these things.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: But yeah, the Black Forest. “This is a perfect place for a school,” thought the founders. Uh… hello.

Andrew: Right next to a dangerous forest, yeah. The detention really gets me because it’s like, “You’re not allowed to go in here, except for when you’re being punished. And we don’t care if you’re a first year; you still have to go in here.” If you’re allowed to serve a detention in the Forbidden Forest, I think that implies that the Forbidden Forest actually isn’t that dangerous, which isn’t true. So it’s misleading, which makes it more dangerous.

Eric: Right. Well, and there’s so many kinds of danger, too, in the forest. There’s centaurs, for example; they could kill you. But that’s more of like, if they disagree with you or if you try and interfere or whatever, so there’s so many ways you can get yourself in hot water. It’s not just with dangerous poisons or regular old nature stuff, getting lost and starvation and the elements. There’s a number of things.

Andrew: There’s a car running loose in there.

Eric: Yeah, you could get hit by a car in the Forbidden Forest!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Oh my gosh. Yeah, this feels to me like perhaps some medieval punishment that’s just been passed down over the years. I feel like that’s how we can explain a lot of these security nightmares.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: It’s just common practices that have been passed down over the centuries.

Andrew: So nobody thinks of it anymore.

Laura: Yeah, exactly. They’re like, “That’s just normal. Yeah, send the kids out into the forest with the haunted car and the giant spiders. Yeah, that’s fine.”

Andrew: I think… I obviously don’t want the forest torn down. We don’t like deforestation here at MuggleCast. But maybe a nice tall gate, or an age line like they put around the Goblet of Fire.

Eric: Ohh.

Andrew: I mean, come on. There’s ways to easily keep the kids out.

Eric: The fact that they traipse into the forest deliberately looking for something that can kill a unicorn is another thing entirely. [laughs] That’s the worst.

Laura: Well, also, Hagrid takes them into the forest for his class, remember? To see the Thestrals. And he was like, “Oh, I’m not taking you very far,” but it’s like, “I’m still in.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: There’s no in or out of danger when you’re in the forest. If you’re in, you’re in.

Laura: Right. Exactly.

Eric: I wonder if originally they didn’t think that the proximity of all this nature to the school would be good for students, to learn more about their world? But something or someone happened and then it was just way too dangerous.

Andrew: Or why did it have to be right next to the school? It’s right next to the school.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: It’s just a nice outdoor classroom.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Nice? Or sick?

Micah: I’m actually okay with the forest. I think it adds character to Hogwarts.

Eric: “Character.”

Andrew: Oh, these all add character. That’s for sure.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: I was going to say – speaking of a very different kind of danger – let’s talk about the Black Lake.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: Hogwarts plumbing apparently drains into this lake.

[Andrew gags]

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Which just raises so many questions for me. First of all, the giant squid lives there. That’s the giant squid’s house, and you’re flushing your you-know-what into his house! What?

Andrew: [laughs] Oh man, this would have been a perfect episode to have the host of FartCast on, getting back to our pre-show discussion.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah, let’s see if we can get that for next week.

Laura: This also raises the question for me, why was the second task in the Triwizard Tournament to make them swim in this lake?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Oh no!

Andrew: Look, I’m telling you, I looked it up, and yes, this is where the Hogwarts plumbing leads to. It’s true.

Eric: It’s a sepsis nightmare.

Laura: But why? Exactly. It’s a cholera nightmare. What I don’t understand is… I feel like I’m getting whiplash here, because we heard within the last couple years that wizards can just vanish their, mm…

Andrew: Right.

Laura: … and now you have indoor plumbing, and you’re all precious about needing to use it? Just vanish it.

Eric: They could have a Vanishing Charm set up on the U-bend of every toilet.

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: So wizards don’t even need to worry about waving their wand near their you know what.

Andrew: I am, by the way, looking at where the plumbing information came from, the source, and that did come from Chapter 26 of Goblet of Fire, “The Second Task,” so I guess it’s brought up.

Laura: What?!

Andrew: Before they take a dive in there. [laughs]

Laura: So wait a… yeah, so Harry knows this, and he’s like, “Yeah, sure”?

Eric: Myrtle talks about it too. Yeah, Myrtle talks about not paying attention and accidentally finding yourself out at sea if somebody flushes and she doesn’t expect it.

Andrew: Oh, that’s exactly right. Yeah, that’s where it came from. Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Eric: But so it’s also… but wait a minute; it’s also a security nightmare to the squid and all the animals in the lake.

Micah: The merpeople.

Laura: Yeah, what about the merpeople? Yeah, exactly.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, God.

Andrew: And it’s super deep, so students could go for a swim in there and then drown. That also makes it a security nightmare. A safety nightmare.

Eric: Isn’t it common practice for waste removal methods built by humans to empty into water?

Laura: Yes.

Andrew: But don’t they get purified or something?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: No, the water gets purified coming in when we pull it in to drink it, but I am not convinced there’s actually any sort of cleaning method the other direction.

Laura: Yeah, no. I mean, also… generally speaking – I can’t speak for every locality – but there are usually laws about where and how much, and I just don’t see that being a consideration at Hogwarts. I can see Dumbledore just being like, “Yeah, flush it.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Flush it.

Eric: I didn’t even think about the students swimming around in their own fecal matter.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Why is it black, you guys? Most lakes are green.

Micah: Eughh.

Eric: Toxic sludge.

Micah: No, but can you imagine at some point during the day all of a sudden you start to hear a little bit of rumble, and one merperson says to the other, “Oh no, Hagrid used the toilet again”?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Wait, does Hagrid have a toilet?

Micah: Oh.

Eric: He might just go in the lake.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: He goes in the woods. He’s definitely a woods-goer.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Let’s move on. This is too much.

Laura: Oh my God. I know; this is straight-up toilet humor. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, well, speaking of the Triwizard Tournament and the second task, let’s talk a little bit about the tournament itself. It is extremely dangerous to compete in no matter what age you are; we learn this in the beginning of the fourth book. We even heard that students have died in the past. But given what’s happened in Harry’s first three years at Hogwarts, why not bring a task to the school where students can perish? It just makes sense, right?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And not only are you bringing a fatal tournament to the school with tasks where students can die, you’re bringing in two other schools to compete, one of which is led by a former Death Eater in Igor Karkaroff and whose most famous alumni is Grindelwald. So I don’t get it, Dumbledore. What the bleep are you doing here?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, there’s not much concern, is there, really?

Eric: The Triwizard Tournament is sold to the students, to Harry and all them, as being a fun way to promote international cooperation and really just break up the horror from last year’s Dementors on the grounds. So like, “We know what will cheer the students up: Let’s have a very dangerous contest where one of you will most certainly, if we’re going by statistics, be dead.”

Andrew: Right. “Oh, and Harry, yeah, your name was spit out of the Goblet. I mean, we already have three, and now you’re the fourth, which never happens, but no problem. Sorry. You still have to compete. We don’t care if you’re underage.”

Micah: “Yeah, that binding magical contract; we can’t do anything about it.”

Andrew: “Yeah, we have to abide by it. So sorry.”

Micah: “You’ve just got to go through the motions, and best of luck.” Tell that to Cedric Diggory.

Andrew: Right. What would’ve happened? Was that ever answered? What would have happened if Harry just said, “No, I’m not doing this”? Does he explode?

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Does imposter Moody explode for putting his name in? All right, so let’s get back to Hagrid. His Care of Magical Creatures class, you come face to face with dangerous creatures. And the class is taught by – I’m sorry – an incompetent half-giant, which further endangers the students. The hippogriff situation, I think, was one of the most on-point examples of the dangers. Also, Laura pointed out that Hagrid teaches a couple classes in the Forbidden Forest. There’s a way to teach this class without endangering the students. I know Hagrid wants to do some more, host hands-on lessons, but maybe keep these animals – I hate to say this, but – in a cage.

Laura: Oof.

Andrew: Make the class a little safer. And I know Draco, he wasn’t following the rules, but still, you have to assume that a student in the class is not going to follow the directions perfectly.

Eric: Absolutely.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, to make sure we don’t go too Umbridge here, I just want to say that Hagrid’s incompetence has nothing to do with him being half-giant, right?

Andrew: No, I wasn’t… I didn’t know how to describe him otherwise. He is a half-giant. An incompetent teacher. [laughs]

Laura: There we go. I was about to say, how is his blood status relevant to his incompetence?

Andrew: [obnoxiously] “Well, we all know that half-giants…”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: Yeah, I would agree with Laura. I think the security nightmare isn’t necessarily the class; it’s the person who’s teaching it.

Eric: Exactly.

Micah: Hagrid has a track record. We’ve talked about it on the show. You go back to Sorcerer’s Stone; think about Norberta. Think about Fluffy. Think about Aragog in Chamber of Secrets. And now you get to him teaching in Book 3. He’s got a good heart, but the execution of teaching for him just doesn’t work because his heart wins out all the time. He’s just so excited to show these creatures off to the students, especially Harry, Ron, and Hermione, that he just loses complete track of what it is that he’s supposed to be doing. And he really does put the security of the students second to just his overall excitement for being able to teach the class.

Eric: Absolutely. And any good teacher should understand implicitly the skill level and the care that your students are going to take when introduced with a new living creature, and Hagrid neglects to care for that. Even if he wanted to teach everyone hippogriffs, he knows somebody like Malfoy is his student and would not be paying attention to the finer points and would get himself injured. You need to adjust your curriculum. I think the Hogwarts teachers have this ability to adjust their curriculum based on the level that the students are at. I mean, if you have a bunch of students who really, really, really care, you can do more dangerous potions, like we imagine Snape does with his NEWT classes. But someone like Hagrid is just like, “No, I want to teach them this beast, and they’ll get it; they’ll find all the same things interesting that I do.” It’s just wrong. It’s incorrect.

Laura: Yes, I agree. And he allows his enthusiasm to impact his curriculum, to your point. I think Hermione points out that hippogriffs are actually above grade level for them being third years, but Hagrid is just so excited that he wants to show them something flashy and cool that he doesn’t start with the basics where he should.

[Ad break]

Andrew: So we did get some from our listeners as well.

Eric: Yeah, and here’s one from Justin. He says, “The Gryffindor common room’s fireplace being on the Floo Network,” and Laura added, “Because of this, an escaped convict was able to talk to fourth years, which is not great.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: In fact, I would extend this to say all of the ways in which Sirius Black got into Hogwarts, or can get into Hogwarts. Or not even Sirius Black – actual criminals, actual Death Eaters. All the ways in which somebody from the outside… even when Hogwarts is at its maximum state of vigilance, the very fact that there are so many ways into the castle is a ridiculous… possibly the most damning security nightmare of them all.

Andrew: We have some examples of that later in this discussion, I think. But it makes you wonder, why was the Gryffindor common room on the Floo Network? And were the other Hogwarts House common room fireplaces on the Floo Network as well? And like, okay, maybe the students can talk to their parents; that could be nice.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: But the common rooms seem like a pretty private place. Students deserve privacy in the common room. And I mean, Sirius – or anyone, it seems – could basically spy on the children in the common room.

Eric: Oh, creepy. You just look over from homework and there’s a head in there of somebody you don’t recognize.

Andrew: Right, right.

Laura: Yeah, especially Umbridge, because we know she does this too.

Micah: She’s a peeper.

Laura: How many times that year during their fifth year do you think she was just low-key pulling an NSA on the trio and just monitoring them? So gross.

Andrew: I was doing some reading on the Floo Network, and it seems like every magical house is connected to the Floo Network. I don’t know if I would trust the Ministry. I want to know more about the security around the Floo Network.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: How do you place a call? Can you can you shut off access easily? I don’t know. There’s a lot of questions there. That’s a home security nightmare. I would not like having the Floo Network attached to my home; I just would be afraid that somebody would somehow break in.

Micah: Of course.

Laura: What if it was the Floo Network by Apple, though? Would you do it then?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: They have some security flaws from time to time, Laura, so I don’t know.

Micah: iFloo.

Andrew: [laughs] iFloo. Wow. Great name.

Micah: There you go. But yeah, I’m curious here too. I mean, we see how Sirius uses it, but could it also be used for actual travel like we see in Chamber of Secrets? Could anybody just decide “I’m going to the Gryffindor common room today” and pop in?

Andrew: Right, yeah. It’s not right.

Laura: All right, this next one comes from Julianne. Julianne says, “Prefects being left in charge of students when Sirius Black is roaming the castle. Did anyone think maybe a few actual adults should be in charge?”

Micah: No.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, this is… I can definitely see the Hogwarts teachers being like, “Yeah, just… prefects do your thing,” and then they go to the staff room, Trelawney gets out her bottle of sherry, and they just rave.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: They’re like, “Yeah, there’s an escaped convict in the castle. Whatevs.”

Andrew: “The kids got this. No problem.”

Eric: I feel like they’re out searching the grounds, but that’s still an oversight.

Laura: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: There is way too much trust placed in the students; I think that’s what really this all comes down to. The Care of Magical Creatures classes; the Triwizard Tournament, competing in that; the Forbidden Forest… everything comes down to, do you trust the students? And I think we learned throughout the series that no, a lot of them cannot be trusted.

Micah: No.

Laura: Do we think…?

Micah: I was thinking, too… oh, go ahead, Laura.

Laura: Oh, I was going to say, do we think maybe this is a commentary on boarding school life? Because prefects are a thing.

Eric: Right.

Laura: And I wonder if it’s intended to be a commentary on how students or young people can sometimes find themselves in positions of authority, and you can have mixed results depending on the motivations that each person has, right? We see this with Draco and his fellow Slytherins when they get put on the Inquisitorial Squad. And even though that happens, they still make Draco a prefect. I don’t understand. [laughs]

Micah: You’re putting so much trust into these young adults. And I’m even thinking back to Sorcerer’s Stone when they’re told to take the students from the Great Hall back to their dormitories when there’s the troll in the dungeon, but what if they run into the troll somehow? Maybe the troll was feeling a little bit energetic that day and ran up the stairs and was in the hallway somewhere. Do you really trust that Percy would be able to save the Gryffindor students from the troll if in fact they encountered the danger?

Laura: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Nothing against Percy. Anyway, we talked about this one a little bit already, but Quidditch is a big security nightmare. You have this high-flying, high-impact game in which you send balls directly at people with the intent of hurting them.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, Andrew.

Andrew: What?

Laura: Nothing. Just move on. [laughs]

Andrew: This is serious, Laura…

Micah: Bludgers, okay?

Andrew: … in which you sell balls directly at people, heavy, big balls directly at people to hurt them.

Eric: Yeah, hit in your face. Just thwapping against the side of your face.

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: That hurts.

Andrew: Imagine this being a Muggle sport. You don’t see this in baseball, tennis, football…

Eric: Maybe hockey, right? Like, vicious…

Andrew: Well, you check people.

Micah: I mean, in football, they are throwing themselves at each other. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but they’re not… it’s not the same, though. This is a lot more violent, in my opinion.

Laura: Yeah, they’re not doing it in the middle… like, 70 feet in the air.

Eric: That’s the other thing, yeah. Land sports are one thing, things with a field. But when you’re in the air and can go all directions, that’s so many more directions that things could go wrong.

Micah: Yeah. No, I actually like this point a lot about being sent hundreds of feet up into the air, and you’re being targeted, essentially. What if you fall off your broom? You’re not always going to have Dumbo though – [laughs] sorry – you’re not always going to have Dumbledore there to go “Arresto momentum” and stop you from falling from the sky.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, that’s the other thing; the brooms don’t have a seat belt. I mean, the whole Quidditch pitch, the field should just be a giant cushion for these students. Why is it hard ground below them? I know there’s Skele-gro; I know they can be fixed. But why let their bones break at all? [laughs]

Eric: That’s a really good question, honestly. It might be the defining question. Why let the students suffer that pain? You’re right. I mean, they have that playground material now that’s made from cut-up tires; why isn’t the pitch just that? Or a net, like a trapeze artist uses?

Andrew: Yeah, a net. There you go.

Micah: Oh, they should put a net. That’d be interesting.

Andrew: Yeah, a net.

Eric: Could be a magical net. I mean, anything – literally anything – to prevent the ground from coming up on you.

Laura: I feel like if they were to implement this, I could see certain Hogwarts alumni being like, “Back in my day, we fell off our rooms and we liked it!”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: “Students are babies these days!”

Micah: That said, the game of Quidditch does sound like it’s in a much better state than what we heard about when we were going through our review of Quidditch Through the Ages.

Eric: Right, it used to be worse, but that doesn’t mean it’s good now. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. All right, so the next one, this is mind-blowing. We mentioned this earlier: the Basilisk. There’s a giant snake running through oversized pipes in the school put there by Muggle-blood hater Salazar Slytherin. The Basilisk remained in the school for centuries, and then Tom Riddle, Slytherin’s true heir, eventually sending it into action, it kills Moaning Myrtle. But the Basilisk remains in the school, and everybody acts like everything’s okay. And then, of course, it gets brought back to life during Harry’s second year. I mean, what on earth? The school should have been shut down the moment Salazar put the snake in the school. It should have been dead on arrival at that point. “We cannot teach here while a giant snake is lurking under the school, just waiting to be activated by Slytherin’s true heir to go and kill half-bloods or Muggle-borns.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Well, at the time that he left the school, would anyone have known about this? I can understand Hogwarts continuing at that point if nobody else knew that it was there, but certainly after the events that got Hagrid expelled from Hogwarts, something should’ve been done. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. I mean, I guess the question is when was it discovered initially?

Eric: Well, there were rumors, right? I think that ever since Slytherin left, there were rumors that he left something behind, a secret chamber. It’s persisted throughout the centuries. I think Laura is right, though; where it really comes to a head is where Myrtle is killed. And now, to be fair, Hogwarts is not under Dumbledore at the time. It’s Dippet’s security nightmare.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But nobody follows up. Myrtle is literally killed 15 feet from the very entrance to the Chamber, and we’re just meant to believe that for the next 50 years, teachers and everybody alike were like, “No, we don’t know where that thing is”? “We can’t find the Chamber of Secrets. We don’t know anything about it. Maybe it doesn’t exist.” People want to believe that it’s the Acromantula in Hagrid’s cupboard that was doing all the killing, but somebody like Dumbledore, who isn’t headmaster, has all the free time in the world to track down this chamber, and doesn’t. Just like, “Yeah, hold my classes; have Grubbly-Plank or somebody stand in for Transfiguration. I got this, Dippet. I’m going to find the Chamber.” He doesn’t. There’s no follow-through at all throughout the decades following Myrtle’s very real death. It’s unbelievable.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, I don’t like excusing Dumbledore of responsibility because I feel like if he were in charge at this time, he would have just let it go as he’s let so many other security nightmares go during his time as headmaster.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But I just still can’t wrap my head around the idea that they are comfortable with a baby Acromantula being responsible for what happened to Myrtle. Don’t they know what she died from? Don’t they know enough to understand that putting this on Hagrid just doesn’t make sense? I get it was a cover-up, and honestly, Dippet should have spent time in Azkaban for it, if you ask me. But yeah, this is just again, the school, as Andrew said, being a security nightmare. You have this gigantic snake slithering through… again, the plumbing. We’re back at the plumbing.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Always comes back to the plumbing.

Eric: One things leads to another here.

Micah: J.K. Rowling, maybe she loved a plumber in her early years of dating or something.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But the other thing is like, surely this giant snake can be detected. The Marauder’s Map is a thing that is possible; there’s got to be other ways to detect who and what is around Hogwarts. So it just doesn’t check out to me that this thing… even if Salazar put it there and nobody noticed or nobody knew, I don’t know. There’s got to be some hints. The pipes rattling a lot, there’s a growling happening underneath all the toilets all the time…

Eric: Well, that’s the whole thing, is the main entrance to the Chamber of Secrets is guarded by Parseltongue. You need to be… and that’s a very rare sort of thing, but I think you can infer from the legend if it’s something that only Slytherin can call, Parseltongue seems to be a very likely way in which the Chamber is guarded. If they ever did a search – and we were told I think in Chamber of Secrets that searches have been conducted – nobody competent was running those searches, because they would have been sure to send far and wide word that they need somebody who can do Parseltongue, and any excuse that that could make is cut off at the knees by the fact that Ron in Deathly Hallows just mutters a little bit and imitates Parseltongue, and it works.

Andrew: Exactly. “I just did an impression!” [laughs]

Eric: Literally no one even just tried going [makes hissing sounds] to the faucet when Myrtle died. Nobody tried.

Andrew: Whoa, Eric, you just activated a snake in my house. Oh my God.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That was crazy.

Micah: Yeah, what was it doing for that long?

Eric: Sorry, is it your Alexa Snake? Your Echo Snake?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Did anyone even bother to talk to Myrtle after all this?

Eric: Oh, yeah!

Laura: Obviously we know the trio does, and she describes perfectly what happened to her, and if you took 30 seconds to ask her what the last thing she saw before she died was, it wasn’t a baby spider.

Andrew: Right!

Eric: Oh my God. You’re right.

Micah: Yeah, it was two eyes, not eight.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, anybody ask her? Did anybody think to ask the dead girl what happened? She’s a ghost.

Eric: Yeah, and there’s not… even if that’s the entrance to the Chamber, the snake gets around the school inside the walls. There have to be other methods by which you can gain access to those same tunnels and then trace them down to find the Chamber. Nuts. Here is another one: This one’s quick, but it’s required reading. Assigned reading. The Monster Book of Monsters, a massive book that’s required reading and can eat you alive.

Andrew: [laughs] Come on.

Eric: I mean, I think at the most, it probably… you might lose a knuckle, but yeah, it’s an unnecessary risk. Hagrid thinks it’s funny, and that in and of itself should tell you everything you need to know about how safe it is.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, look at it this way. Would you three be comfortable studying with this book?

Eric: Not really.

Laura: No.

Andrew: I wouldn’t. How could you focus on your work knowing that maybe this book is…? I know you’ve got to tickle the spine and then it’s friendly, but what if it goes rogue? What if it’s hungry? What if it’s having a bad day?

Laura: Also, I think this is a publishing nightmare, because it’s obviously not Hogwarts’s or Hagrid’s fault that this book exists. Like, this was somebody’s idea.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: They were like, “You know what would be really cool? If we made a book about monsters that tried to bite your hand off. Yeah, send it to the press.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They don’t even tell the bookstores how to handle it. There are no instructions that come with it, so that poor clerk at Flourish and Blotts has bandages over all of his hands, and he’s like, “This is the worst thing ever.” He sees Harry coming a mile away, and he’s like, [weepily] “Hogwarts? Okay, I’m going to call my wife and tell her I love her.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: As he goes into the cage to get the book. Yeah, it’s nuts. These books should come with instructions. And the books should be docile or drugged at the time of sale, and it should be something that you have to… like a Tamagotchi; you have to activate it, and then it’s kind of alive.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: Well, back to Hogwarts just not having adequate protection from the outside world, a dog was able to break into the school, which strongly suggests that it isn’t that hard to get in in the first place.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And just first of all, great point here; it seems like a pretty big oversight, when you consider the number of valuables and just the history of the school, that a dog could get in.

Eric: Well, a dog with a human mind.

Laura: Yeah, yeah, but they also… in this world, Animagi exist. [laughs] So why would you not think of this as being one of the top ways that somebody might try to infiltrate the school?

Andrew: Yeah, and I think… my point here, too, is just that anybody seemingly can get into the school, period. I don’t think it’s that hard. If you really wanted to break into Hogwarts, you could.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, Peter Pettigrew practically lived at Hogwarts for years.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: That’s the biggest security nightmare.

Laura: Yeah! It’s like, nobody caught that?

Andrew: [laughs] Right. I mean, Dumbledore needs his own Marauder’s Map. I know why Fred and George wouldn’t recognize Pettigrew on the map, but Dumbledore needs his own to keep an eye on everybody, or just… maybe not a map, just a long list of everybody who’s currently in the school. That would probably solve a lot of problems. I know the map is creepy, so a list could be a good alternative.

Micah: And just to bring back the forest for a second, if you’re staking it out, trying to figure out the best time to infiltrate, you have that entire forest just to be able to pass the time. You could just hang out there. Nobody’s going to find you there.

Andrew: And if you’re a dog, plenty of trees to pee on.

Laura: Oh, we’re back to bathroom humor.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Just don’t go in the lake.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Laura: Just back to the plumbing. Every time.

Micah: Well, one person who you could argue was sent to deal with all of this nonsense from Dumbledore was Dolores Umbridge, so maybe in fact she was the savior of Hogwarts being a security nightmare.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That said, she certainly created some of her own problems at the school, some of her own security nightmares, probably the top one being her detentions. She literally tortured, physically and mentally, the students at the school.

Andrew and Eric: Yep.

Micah: They have scars to prove it.

Andrew: It’s so disturbing. I just… I’ll never be over that.

Eric: How bad must you be at governing a school and keeping the kids safe that the government needs to step in and send one of their own to do it?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Hogwarts’s reputation was so poor at that moment that literally Dumbledore, one of the smartest wizards of all time, couldn’t talk his way out of getting the government to step in. That’s how bad the situation at Hogwarts had become.

Andrew: Yeah. All right, next one: the Whomping Willow. There’s a massive tree at Hogwarts that can kill you if you approach it. [laughs] I know why it’s there, but maybe…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: This one is on Dumbledore.

Eric: Yes, it is.

Micah: This one is totally… he put it there.

Eric: Yeah, he went through all that trouble of putting the Whomping Willow on the grounds, and then the whole thing with the Shrieking Shack, convincing everyone it was haunted, etc., all for one student. And I love Lupin; y’all know that my AOL screen name was very nearly RemusLupin423@aol.com. But I’m telling you, I don’t know that the risk of the Whomping Willow, for being on the Hogwarts grounds forevermore, was actually worth what it gave one student.

Andrew: Well, here’s the thing. I mean, I think it’s… I get Dumbledore put it there, but I think it’s on Dumbledore because it’s still there. Like, it’s time to take it down. That’s not needed anymore. Or it’s time to petrify it or something.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So it doesn’t… just remove it. Again, we are not for deforestation here on MuggleCast, so how about you just take out the fact that it’s going to… the feature in which it beats people.

Micah: Or move it to the forest.

Laura: I mean, maybe he’s thinking that they might get another student who is a werewolf, so they might need it, right?

Andrew: But come up with a room at Hogwarts where they can go chill. I don’t know.

Laura: Well, and that’s the thing, is we see in Prisoner of Azkaban that Lupin is able to take his potion and just curl up in a room for three days. Why wasn’t that just the way it was handled always?

Eric: Well, the Wolfsbane Potion wasn’t around yet.

Laura: Ah, okay. Well, that makes sense.

Eric: So that is stated. But there’s no reason that can’t exist today. The Whomping Willow does not really need to exist anymore. And then do you guys know what I’m saying when I say drinking bird? It’s those mechanical birds that dip their beak in…

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: And it’s on a spring? You could have one of those and magically enchant it and set it up right at the Whomping Willow to push the knot so that it’s always docile.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: So that it’s always just kind of chill. It’s just always like, “Eh, whatever, I’m a willow. It’s cool.” Behaves like a normal willow tree, and then just never remove the bird. [laughs]

Micah: I just think about those poor birds from Prisoner of Azkaban that Alfonso Cuarón added.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Aww. Yeah, Alfonso really pointed out a… I think he was trying to tug at our heartstrings there, make us realize how dangerous Hogwarts is. The avian death count is just way too high.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: But here’s another one, and this one stands out. We were just talking about Umbridge and the government needing to intervene? But yeah, poor background checks on teachers. Between Professor Quirrell; Gilderoy Lockhart; Alastor Moody, who was really Barty Crouch, Jr… just poor background checks. Dumbledore does really not seem to be doing the due diligence on these people that he’s bringing in to teach the kids.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Trelawney.

Eric: Some of them you’re lucky if half these teachers didn’t actually serve time in Azkaban, because some of them did. It’s just crazy. For violent crimes, I will say, too, so it’s a big mistake on Dumbledore’s part he doesn’t follow through. Also, the things that do happen at Hogwarts, he doesn’t seem to have the right course of action. Do we know, did he ever investigate the troll coming in? After Quirrell let the troll in at the end of Book 1, was he just so convinced that whoever the culprit was would probably be out by the end of the year because of the DADA curse that he’s like, “I won’t investigate this any further”? There’s just some really weird mixed messaging as far as Dumbledore being desperate for DADA teachers and Dumbledore just willingly bringing people in who are going to harm the students.

Laura: Yeah, it’s such a good point, especially when you consider the fact that there is a commonality between these people. He should be very concerned about anybody who wants to take this job. His first question should be, “What is wrong with you?”

[Andrew and Eric laughs]

Micah: I would just add to this list Trelawney; we know why he hires her. Snape is a questionable hire as well, though he’s very good at his job, but he’s terrible to the students, most of them. And one other which we’ve already talked about, and that’s Hagrid, who is not qualified to do his job.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: So it’s not just the DADA. It seems like – and I’d have to go back and do a check on when these other professors were hired – but it seems like it’s possible that McGonagall, Flitwick, and Sprout were all holdovers from Dippet, and Dumbledore just isn’t a good hirer. [laughs]

Andrew: Dumbledore had reasons to hire Hagrid. Getting him back on his feet, clearing his name…

Eric: Right.

Andrew: The thing is, Dumbledore knew the DADA role was cursed, so you need to do extra, extra research into these people that you’re appointing. I don’t know when he figured out it was cursed, but he knew at some point.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. And to the point about hiring and all the other professors, he’s really just stacking the deck and stacking the school with his friends, or with people who are of strategic importance. None of the reasons why Trelawney is at school and actively allowed to still teach classes and teach a young generation of students has nothing to do with the students or the value of education that she can bring them. She’s there because she needs to be protected at all costs from Voldemort.

Laura: So Alohomora. Can we just agree that this is a plot device that just got used way too frequently? Why are so many doors locked at Hogwarts if pretty much all of them can be opened with Alohomora?

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, what is the point of a lock if it can so easily be unlocked without the key?

Eric: Wasn’t there a legal precedent where if something’s unlocked, you don’t break in; it’s not breaking and entering? So they have to lock it because there’s a threshold to understand it. I don’t know. But everything security-wise, everything that’s ever meant to be secure in the Harry Potter books is broken into, and the Ministry is twice if you include Cursed Child, via the same method, 17 years apart, or 11 years apart. So there’s really just no regard at all for actual practical safety. If somebody has the will, they will find the way. But it’s seemingly so easy for 11-year-olds to get down into and get the Sorcerer’s Stone. I understand a little bit of favoritism, special circumstances, but I mean, it’s that problem from Sorcerer’s Stone spread out across all seven books. Secure places are not secure. Locked doors do not remain locked up, period.

Andrew: Right. [laughs]

Micah: And especially to get into where Fluffy is! That’s all you have to do?

Andrew: The Fluffy one, that one just… that kills me.

Laura: Yeah. And Dumbledore is just like, “Don’t go there. Just don’t go.”

Andrew: [laughs] Don’t go there, don’t go to the forest…

Eric: “I told them not to go.” He’s wiping his hands of responsibility. Washing his hands.

Andrew: Yeah. When you tell kids to not go somewhere, they’re going to go. They’re going to get curious. You’re tempting them.

Laura: It makes me wonder if that was his plan all along. I could see Dumbledore being like, “I’m going to tell them not to go, and then we’re going to see what happens.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “We’re going to see who the problem children are.” All right, this next one, this is a mental health nightmare: making kids face their boggarts in front of their fellow students with no clue what the boggart might turn out to be. I mean, a lot of these kids are experiencing these creatures for the first time, so they don’t know what’s going to happen. I think it’s just so embarrassing for these kids to have their worst fears exposed.

Eric: The more you know…

Andrew: And then you might be bullied about it for months and years to come.

Eric: Oh yeah, that’s true. That is making the children vulnerable.

Andrew: Yeah, because we have another one here from Melissa. To Melissa’s point, “There’s no anti-bullying initiative” at Hogwarts. “What are the consequences? How are parents involved? How are bullies being made to feel responsible for their actions? Bullies are often going through their own crises. How are they being helped? How are the victims being helped?! All of these students in a school away from their families and not a single mental health professional in the building. It’s outrageous! Poor Neville is going through some real hardships and has no one to talk to.” Yeah, where’s the guidance counselor at Hogwarts? It’s your Head of House; that’s about it, right? And they’re not really doing it.

Micah: I can see Sprout as being a really good guidance counselor Head of House.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: No?

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I figured I’d throw that out there.

Andrew: And McGonagall.

Micah: McGonagall too. Speaking of mental health nightmares, back in Book 3 they thought it would be a great idea – and I understand the Ministry was involved here too – to put Dementors to guard the school from Sirius Black. Soul-sucking creatures that are completely and utterly irrational and have no means of human communication, so if one comes after you, you’re basically screwed.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: They’re there for protection against a wizard who already eluded them to begin with, so what makes them think that they are going to keep him out from what he’s looking to do? I mean, based on everything we just talked about, if this man can break out of Azkaban, he can sure as hell get into Hogwarts.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Micah: Dementors or no Dementors. So I’m just curious… what a brilliant idea to have creatures that keep felonious Dark wizards in check around a bunch of students.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I also…

Micah: Were there no incidents? Sorry, Laura.

Laura: Oh, no, you’re good. I also just wonder, too, how hard did Dumbledore fight this? It just seems like he accepted it. He was like, “Yeah, it’s just not in their nature to be forgiving, so be careful.” It’s the same thing with Fluffy; he’s like, “Ehh, don’t go there.” I think Dumbledore is drunk. I think we have discovered Dumbledore is just drunk throughout the entire series.

Andrew: He’s the real drunk at Hogwarts, not Trelawney. Micah, at the top of this you brought up a good point that the students are really screwed if they encounter these Dementors. It’s hard to cast a Patronus, so they’re not going to be able to fend them off very easily.

Micah: No. And the whole thing is that they think that they can keep the Dementors under control, but we know from incidents that happen throughout Prisoner of Azkaban that that’s not the case. They just float about, do what they do, and you can’t really rationalize with them in any way. So to put these creatures around the school, especially with young kids, that is just a terrible idea. And if you’re a parent, and you hear that Dementors are guarding Hogwarts, what are you thinking?

Andrew: The parent angle, too, is just insane. I mean, parents aren’t notified ever.

[Ad break]

Andrew: All right, next one, from Steph: “A room full of ‘lost’ artifacts seems like a pretty huge security nightmare to me, considering no one knows what’s in there and one of the pieces just happened to be a Vanishing Cabinet that, oh I dunno, LET IN DEATH EATERS.” Again, Dumbledore needs a list of everything. The headmaster needs a list of everything that’s in there. “Oh, a Vanishing Cabinet? Hmm, seems like an issue.”

Laura: Well, and also, they know that its sister is in Borgin and Burkes, and they know what sort of clientele is attracted to that store. Why would you allow this item to be inside of what is supposed to be the most secure place in the wizarding world? Give me a break.

Eric: “Oh, it’s busted, so it’s okay. It’s no longer a threat to us.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Montague was in there rattling around in it for a while, and he said, “Oh, yeah, it did sound like it’s working,” and they did no follow up. That’s the thing, again, follow up. Once Montague does show up in Hogwarts, ask him where he’s been and actually do the work of figuring out what cabinet it was and where you were and all that stuff. Nobody really seemed to follow up on that, creating a security nightmare. And I will say, a lot about this stuff, it has to do with there being generations upon generations of students, right? These kids who… first of all, it’s dangerous that they don’t know how to control their magic that they have, that they were born with, so the school is inherently a dangerous place because they’re learning to control it. But then you get these things like the Vanishing Cabinet, where these magical items that are huge security risks just exist in a school like this. And it’s just normal, because this is a school of magic, and so things tucked away in the Room of Requirement could have deadly consequences. But nobody’s doing an inventory of the room of all things inside the Room of Requirement. Nobody’s doing a health and safety check to make sure there aren’t hazards and other things in there. It’s a school of magic.

Micah: It’s a Horcrux hidey-hole, too.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: A Horcrux hidey-hole, yeah. There’s pieces of soul, and that leads directly into the next item here from Melissa: “The restricted section in the library. Some of these books are literally dangerous, and obviously it’s not so hard to get in there as the trio do so multiple times.” You’re right; why are these books there at all? Not just the Horcrux ones.

Andrew: Restricted, unless you have an Invisibility Cloak, then you’re good.

Eric: A cloak, and it’s just supposed to be a teacher’s, what, sign off permission? You need to demonstrate your need or reason for having these books and a teacher can sign off on it. Harry, one of the times, his way into the restrictive section is just to ask Lockhart for his autograph. I mean, it’s just ridiculous!

Andrew: Yep.

Eric: I know Dumbledore removed the Horcrux books, but his way for Hermione to get them was not that secure, either. So it’s just ridiculous.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, these types of allowances for students to access dangerous items, they’re pretty lax. Hermione got a freakin’ Time-Turner when she was 13 because McGonagall was like, “She’s a really good student.”

Micah: Yeah, we forgot about that one altogether. That’s a huge security risk.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: You can screw up the whole world.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Oh, we trust her, though.”

Eric: Listen, they had a talking-to with Hermione, yeah.

Laura: They gave her a stern talking-to. Okay, well, this next one comes from Anthony. Anthony says, “Secret passages that lead from outside of the school grounds (and therefore outside any of the magical fortifications protecting the school) to literally directly inside of the castle. And not only that, but the teachers who are also meant to be protecting the students don’t even know about some of them. The school is hundreds of years old.” Well, I think it’s older than that. “You’d think someone other than the Marauders would’ve drawn up a map detailing the layout to at the very least to educate the staff on all possible exits and entrances.”

Andrew: Yes! At the start of year meeting, Dumbledore should be reminding everybody about all the entrances and exits, especially while Harry is there when there are a lot of threats on the school.

Eric: They probably don’t even have a fire escape plan because they’re relying on their ability to use Aguamenti.

Andrew: [laughs] Right. Or take all that nasty water from the Black Lake and throw it on the school in the event of a fire.

[Laura makes a disgusted sound]

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, where are the fire drills? Where are the Dementor drills? The Death Eater drills? [laughs] Yeah. Okay, next one is from Eleanor. This one kills me too. “The Fat Lady as gatekeeper to the common room, which is presumably intended to help keep the students safe. She gets drunk on duty at one point, she can hardly do her job responsibly then, plus she goes off for chats in other portraits, meaning students can’t get back into their dorm. Slavishness to password system – she prevents Neville from entering the tower because he can’t remember the password, despite clearly knowing who he is and that he should be allowed, leaving him alone in the corridor, including at night.” And while we’re on the subject of passwords, Eleanor says, “Dumbledore’s are clearly too easy to guess. He needs to change it up if he wants decent security on his office!”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: His office has so many valuables. Why not have a secure password?

Eric: Well, how many people know Dumbledore the way Harry knows Dumbledore? But still, I agree wholeheartedly with this whole Fat Lady thing. The password system is antiquated. It’s like why your iPhone switched from passwords to face ID, because if you’re a Gryffindor, you get in, period. You don’t need to remember a complicated password or a password that under Sir Cadogan changes every day. There are better ways.

Andrew: Also, Dumbledore’s passwords, they are super simple. If he tried to put those into one of these password manager apps like 1Password or LastPass…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … it would be like, “Yo, this is way too insecure. You need some exclamation points. You need some semicolons. You need uppercase letters, lowercase letters, numbers…”

Eric: The complexity is way too low.

Andrew: Right, you need like, 35 characters. Come on, Dumbledore. I have a more secure password on my… on my…

Eric: Neopets account.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Absolutely. Well, we just talked about the Fat Lady; here’s another one related to portraits. This is from Dodgeball Hero, who says, “The ability for portraits to flit between different places and tell real people about what they see kids doing at school, in all places in the school. Seems creepy!” I agree. Portraits are a huge security nightmare, and one that we don’t talk about often enough.

Andrew: Yeah, they deserve privacy, people. I mean, come on. Look, the students need to be watched over maybe in the Great Hall, in the corridors, but in the common rooms? There shouldn’t be portraits in there staring at them. Dumbledore. Poor Dumbledore always being watched too.

Micah: Or ghosts. Think about ghosts, too. I mean, they can just drop in on you in an inopportune moment.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I mean, Myrtle is in the bath with Harry.

Andrew: [laughs] I shouldn’t laugh; that’s really disturbing.

Micah: All right. Well, Chelsea does a good job putting a bow on this whole discussion. She asks, “The fact that parents are notified of literally nothing. Imagine picking up Hermione at the end of her second year,” and you’re her parent and you say, “How was your year, darling?” To which Hermione replies, “Yeah, not really sure. I spent most of it Petrified in the hospital wing. Also, I accidentally turned into a cat before that and spent a solid month in the hospital wing.”

Andrew: [laughs] “Oh, and there was a giant snake running beneath the school. But it was a great year.”

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: We also know that Hermione does not tell her parents about things, clearly. I mean, we see in the fifth book, she’s supposed to go on a skiing trip with her parents, and she just dips out. She’s like, “Hey, I have some magic stuff to deal with,” and they don’t really seem to ask beyond being disappointed that she’s leaving their family vacation. So Hermione almost has a “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy going with her parents. Then she wipes their memories.

Andrew: I think all of our parents would be very concerned if we told them about being in these situations. And I also wonder how many students actually tell their parents what’s going on at the school.

Eric: I don’t know.

Andrew: Because if you brought up a lot of these things, I think they would write to the headmaster.

Laura: Well, Draco clearly does.

Andrew: Yeah, some do.

Micah: How much do you feel Molly and Arthur know? I feel like they know quite a bit, but they also have, like, ten kids at the school. [laughs]

Andrew: And they also went there, so I think that plays into it too. I think they knew what their kids are getting into, whereas Hermione’s parents wouldn’t know.

Micah: I mean, their daughter is taken into the Chamber of Secrets and almost killed by Lord Voldemort.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: “Spend five more years there! No problem!”

Micah: Yeah, “Go back next year, Ginny. Good luck.”

Andrew: [laughs] Well, I guess it shows that they trust Dumbledore and the professors there? I don’t know. It’s all one big mess. But there’s another question here: Should Hogwarts improve? Or as one person on the website, the Q&A site Quora brought up, are these issues there by design? Because maybe they give students real world practice with what they can encounter, sort of like how it’s argued in the books that they need practical lessons in Defense Against the Dark Arts so they can prepare for the real world. Are all of these dangers in Hogwarts by design, so they’re ready for what’s to come, potentially?

Micah: I think some of them are. But I would go back to the point you raised about why we love the school despite us having this entire conversation about Hogwarts being a security nightmare. I do feel like a lot of these things are what makes Hogwarts fun and interesting to read about. We’re a bit older, so we can reflect on some of these things as definitely being questionable, but I chalk it all up to why the school is just so much fun to read about.

Andrew: [laughs] Keep suffering for our entertainment, kids. Thank you.

Eric: Like I said earlier, I think to some extent there’s always going to be some danger, because these kids who are wielding magic don’t know how to do so safely, but it’s a far cry between that and actively welcoming more danger than would normally be. There’s chaos, but there doesn’t need to be an open invitation for people who would not have the best interest at heart of the students or the school to be brought to the school, and they consistently – and under Dumbledore, repeatedly – are, so it’s a no for me.

Andrew: [laughs] “It’s a no for me.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It’s going to be a no for me.

Laura: It really does make me wonder – circling back to an earlier point – if to some extent, all of this is intended to be a commentary on boarding school life. I’ve never attended boarding school myself, but I’ve definitely read articles about some of the crazy things that happen at boarding schools, and people continue sending their kids there. So there are definitely real world scandals that break out in these kinds of environments, and I wonder if this is all a subtextual commentary on that.

Micah: Yeah. It’s funny that you say that because it reminds me of two things. One is David Heyman saying he really took this on because it was a reflection for him back to his time at boarding school. So I don’t know what he did at boarding school, but it must have been off the charts.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: The other was the Quizzitch question, Eric, that you had a couple of weeks ago about Tilda Swinton not taking the role of… was it Trelawney?

Eric: I believe so.

Micah: Because she didn’t want to basically glorify boarding school life. So maybe, Laura, to your point, there is something there.

Eric: Maybe real life boarding schools are more dangerous. [laughs]

Laura: If you went to boarding school, please write in.

Andrew: Yeah, let us know.

Micah: Did you poop in the lake?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Was there a Triwizard Tournament? Were there portraits staring at you? Was there a book that can eat you? Okay, so if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, if you have any other security nightmares, please send them in. MuggleCast@gmail.com, or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. We would love to collect some more. Maybe we can do another installment of this discussion. You can also record a voice memo; just email that to MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Just try to keep your message about a minute long. We love seeing and reading your feedback, and sometimes we include it on air, so please do send it in.


Quizzitch


Andrew: All right, it’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: When Harry and Dumbledore Apparate to the cave, what is the first spell Dumbledore uses? The correct answer, you guys, was Lumos!

Andrew: Of course.

Micah: I would have guessed Alohomora.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Maybe he nonverbally said Alohomora, because that makes the most sense. Well, I will say, to a person, you guys, everyone who submitted answers did so via the new Quizzitch form on MuggleCast’s website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch. We only got one complaint from our leaving Twitter, and it was from Time-Traveling Unicorn, who says in all caps, “I LITERALLY GOT A TWITTER ACCOUNT TO PLAY #QUIZZITCH. WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE?”

Andrew: [laughs] Well, look…

Micah: Yeah, Eric, what is this nonsense?

Andrew: Twitter’s a hellscape, so now you can leave it again. It’s for the best.

Eric: [laughs] That same person’s bio says, “Came for the Twitter games, stayed for the energy,” so they’ve decided to keep on Twitter even though Quizzitch is no longer found there.

Andrew: Okay. All right.

Eric: And they submitted; they’re one of these winners, so… awesome. Thank you for making the transition. Thank you, everybody, for humoring me and allowing us to consolidate all of our submissions on the MuggleCast website, slash Quizzitch. Up at the top menu, just click it. Correct answers were submitted by Ali, Ann, Billy, Ciara, Crillyc, Dilesh, Elizabeth, Ellen, Gussy, Jude, Katalin, Katie, Kelly, Michelle, Nadia, Ning, Phlaym, Romina, Sabrina, SavyAllen, Shyam, Snuffles69, Stefanie Dee, Suhas, Tara, and Tuesday. Next week’s question: After Neville falls off his broom in year one, who tells Malfoy to shut up? Submit your answer to us via the MuggleCast website, MuggleCast.com/Quizzitch.

Andrew: Great. So to wrap up here, a couple reminders. We would appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast; thank you in advance. Also, follow us on social media. We’re @MuggleCast on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, and LinkedIn, too, and YouTube. Really, we’re everywhere. You can also join our community of listeners today at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. You get early access to MuggleCast. You get ad-free MuggleCast. You get access to our planning docs, our weekly livestream; you can tune in and hear us record each episode live. We also banter before the show begins and a little bit after as well, so you really get a behind-the-scenes look at the making of MuggleCast. You also get bonus MuggleCast installments, a new physical gift every year… you get these benefits depending on which level you pledge at. And we have a new AMA benefit for our Slug Club level patrons; once a month, one of the four MuggleCasters will be recording an Ask Me Anything video, and I think sometime this summer, we will also do a group one as well, so that’ll be fun and change up the dynamic. Thank you for listening to today’s episode. We hope you enjoyed this major look at every single security nightmare at Hogwarts.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Andrew: I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody!

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

[Andrew makes a siren sound]

Transcript #500

 

MuggleCast 500 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #500, The Best Harry Potter Pick-Up Lines, Popular Head Cannon Ships


Show Intro: MuggleCast by the numbers


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom, and this is Episode 500!

[Andrew, Eric Scull, and Laura Tee make celebration noises]

Micah Tannenbaum: Love the sound effects, guys.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yes, this is a milestone episode of MuggleCast, and we’re going to celebrate today by reviewing the show by the numbers. And then we’re going to get you ready for Valentine’s Day; we’re going to share our favorite Harry Potter-themed pickup lines, and we’re also going to play a couple of games as well, so today’s theme…

Eric: I love the way you said that; you kind of slowed down the way you were talking there, Andrew, like, “Yeeeah, pickup lines.”

Andrew: Well, that’s my hint to y’all. Everybody should present these, deliver these, in a sexy way for Valentine’s Day.

Micah: No problem, Andrew.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Micah has the sexiest voice in podcasting. We’ve established this over the years for sure. So yeah, let’s look at MuggleCast by the numbers. We have the number 118; that’s the number of times Umbridge sucked during our show’s history.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Not enough.

Micah: What a way to start the list.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: 2,356; that’s the number of people who have pledged to our Patreon over its lifetime.

Laura: Wow. That’s amazing.

Andrew: Thank you, listeners, for doing that. It’s a pretty incredible number.

Laura: You guys rock.

Eric: This is the fifth year of our Patreon, you guys. We started it five years ago and like, a week.

Andrew: And like I said during 499, it’s only because of our Patreon that we are at Episode 500 today.

Eric: That’s right.

Andrew: 43,722; now, we’ve already posted this one on social media, and some people were guessing this is the number of minutes of MuggleCast.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: But that’s not true. This is the number of emails we’ve received from listeners since November 2006, so a lot of feedback. [laughs]

Laura and Micah: Wow.

Micah: I’ve responded to all of them.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I was going to say, should we each take 8,000 and start replying to people? Is this unread? This is read? What is this?

Andrew: No, this is all. This is everything.

Eric: Oh, okay, okay.

Andrew: Yeah, we’ve had MuggleCast@gmail.com since November 2006. And we’ve never deleted a single email, so they’re all in there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: We should for fun some day just go back into the inbox and go to like, June 2007, and see what people were emailing us about, and then read those emails on air and finally answer them.

Micah: That’s a great idea. I think in our next mailbag episode, we should pull one from way back, and we should answer it. Legit.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, let’s do that every month, every time we do a Muggle Mail episode. “And now, an email we never got to 13 years ago.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Love it.

Andrew: Okay, next number: tens of millions. [laughs]

Eric: Wow, that’s a strict number there. Very specific.

Andrew: This is the number of downloads MuggleCast has received over the years. We don’t have an exact number because MuggleCast has been hosted on numerous platforms over the years, and we don’t have access to all those platforms anymore. But it’s safe to say… I know just on our current platform we’ve had well over 10 million downloads, and during MuggleCast’s most popular years, we’ve probably reached over 100 million downloads at this point, I would think.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: I’m just thinking back to Episode 100 that you all did in London. And I don’t remember whether it was that episode or 101, which was the analysis of Deathly Hallows episode. This was back when it was first released: It had over 100,000 downloads.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Micah: And I can only imagine what they have now.

Andrew: Well, because think about that period of time. It was really before social media blew up, so you could discuss the book on MuggleNet, but where were you getting really fun reactions to the book? MuggleCast and other Harry Potter podcasts were a great resource at that time.

Eric: You’re right, there wasn’t… I mean, I don’t think there were YouTube channels the way there are YouTube channels today.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: Certainly not by any of the major, like, BuzzFeed or even Nerdist. Yeah, I think that we really covered a lot of that ground for people.

Andrew: Yeah. 773. What number is this, Eric?

Eric: [laughs] It’s an area code in Chicago, Illinois.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: 773 is the number of times that we said the word “pickle” on MuggleCast in the episodes that we have transcripts for.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Of course, this count is always going up. I would actually guess… I mean, I think, Andrew, you’re right; it probably diminished after Pickle Pack was a thing. We probably stopped saying it so many times after that.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: But we keep saying it. Eventually we’ll get “pickle” to the same tens of millions number.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: You’re at least at 776 right now, Eric.

Eric: Exactly. Pickle, pickle, pickle, pickle…

Micah: It’s just funny that we chose the word “pickle,” versus “Harry” or “Hogwarts” or “magic.”

Andrew: But pickle was a running joke on the show; that’s why I thought it was a good one.

Micah: I know.

Laura: Yeah, I do wonder, of the 773, how many of these are instances of Andrew saying, “Hello, Potter Pickles”?

Andrew: [laughs] Once, maybe twice.

Laura: Eh…

Eric: Well, the very first one… so if anyone wants to listen to Episode 54 of MuggleCast, that was the one where Andrew stunned the world by calling us all pickles. And it’s right at the beginning of this show, so that’s how you can figure it out.

Micah: And I don’t know if people know this, but since we’re talking about Pickle Pack, Andrew really created the precursor to Patreon way before its time.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Thanks for giving me credit again. I don’t know if I was really the one who came up with the idea for Pickle Pack, but I’ll take the credit, sure.

Micah: Just run with it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: How much was it? Was it $25 for one year?

Andrew: $30.

Eric: It was $30, okay. It was $30 a year; we had over 140 people do that, right?

Andrew: Probably even more, no? But yeah, that was our membership to MuggleCast. And we did video blogs there, we sent everybody a T-shirt, a letter; I’m sure we posted other things. We had a special site, PicklePack.com, and you logged into it. We did a great job on that. That was ahead of its time.

Eric: I wish we hadn’t password protected it because I can’t get into it on the Wayback Machine. I really want to see it.

Andrew: Ohh.

Laura: I hope that my blogs are banished into the abyss, because I just feel like it would be so cringy to look back on that.

Micah: Laura, your blickles.

Laura: My blickles, excuse me. My blickles.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I have old hard drives with some of the blickles.

[Laura groans]

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Burn them.

Eric: I’ve debated putting them up on Patreon for the last five years. I still haven’t done it because they are cringe. They’re bad.

Andrew: You should post one. I think people would be interested.

Eric: I’ll find one of the better ones, yeah.

Andrew: All right. Next number: 1,000… no, 151… 151,384. I don’t know how to say big numbers.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Apparently.

Andrew: God help us once we hit Episode 100,000. The number of followers across social media.

Eric: Did you remember to include our LinkedIn?

Andrew: [laughs] No, I didn’t.

Eric: So the number is even higher.

Micah: 151,385.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Micah, thank you for connecting with us on LinkedIn.

Andrew: We have 191 followers there, so hold on… 151,384 plus 191. Okay, updated number: 151,575. That’s the number of followers on social media.

Micah: Did you include YouTube?

Andrew: Oh, no. Darn it!

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: Did you include Parlor?

Andrew: [laughs] Nope. I can’t access that number because it is shut down.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Okay, plus 786 on YouTube. So that’s 152,361. Any others?

Micah: No, we’re good. MySpace?

Eric: This is just a rundown for the listeners of all the places that we are on social media. The MuggleCast YouTube, for instance, has things you’ve never seen before.

Andrew: Actually, MySpace is a good one, Micah. I don’t know if you can access that anymore, but I bet we had a lot of followers on MySpace back in the day.

Micah: Yeah, because that was really what was around at the time, right? I mean, Facebook was, but Twitter was just coming online, and then obviously, Instagram much later. But I do wonder what our following would have been like if these platforms had existed in full back when we were in our heyday.

Andrew: Probably much, much larger.

Micah: Millions.

Andrew: Yeah. I know we had at least one friend on MySpace; that was Myspace Tom. Miss that guy.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: He’s on Twitter now?

Andrew: Is he? Okay, I’m just going to add one to our number of followers in tribute to Tom. So the grand total is 152,362. All right, zero! That’s the number of times the author of Harry Potter has been on the show.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Sad, but also not crazy sad anymore.

Laura: Eh, yeah, it’s fine.

Micah: We have had authors on the show, in fairness; just not that author.

Andrew: [laughs] Yes. All right, so this next one, I want y’all to guess: the number of minutes of MuggleCast.

Laura: Okay, I have a question. Is this all MuggleCast ever? Or is it only core episodes?

Andrew: I’m focused on core episodes only. I deleted the minis and the LeakyMugs from my playlist to calculate this total.

Laura: Okay. I’m going to say 50,000.

Eric: I just did a little bit of math. 500 episodes, and I guess the average is about 78 minutes, or an hour and 18, so I’m saying 39,000.

Micah: I’m going to go in the 40s. I’ll go 45,000.

Andrew: All right, well, if we’re playing Price Is Right rules, you all lose because you all went over the tally I have.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: But Eric was very close: 38,079 minutes. That’s over 26 days, if you played them start to finish.

Eric: Well, speaking of big projects, we actually solicited… so not for the first but the second time, we asked listeners – specifically our patrons, this time – to help us with the biggest project of them all, which was to go through… so we’ve released these next statistics one time before; it was either for Episode 250 or 300 or something like that. But we actually had listeners and patrons listen to our episodes and tell us who among the hosts was on each episode.

Andrew: Whoever is number one gets three months off.

Eric: [laughs] That would allow the rest of us to catch up, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah, there you go.

Eric: [laughs] The award for near perfect attendance coming in at… now, this includes today, because I just went and updated the spreadsheet when we started recording. But then for the most attendance, Andrew Sims at 479 episodes of MuggleCast.

Andrew: Woohoo! Thank you, thank you. Thank you to myself for having plenty of time on my hands to rarely miss an episode of the show.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, think about that, though. That’s over 16 years. You were only not here for 21 recorded episodes of MuggleCast, and the rest of us, it’s not close. It’s crazy.

Andrew: I did have, like, a ten episode head start compared to y’all.

Eric: Oh, that’s true.

Andrew: So what are the other numbers here?

Eric: Okay, well… yeah, I will say, too, that is just superb. And in many of the times when you missed an episode, you still edited that episode.

Andrew: You know, my dedication to the show just knows no bounds.

Eric: [laughs] Well, coming in next is just really the most consistent dude who’s not Andrew, and it’s not me; it is Micah. Micah came in at 429 episodes of MuggleCast.

Andrew: Congratulations, Micah.

Laura: Well done.

Micah: Thank you.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, through thick and thin, you were just always there. When the rest of us were galavanting around New Zealand and missing episodes left and right…

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: … you could be counted on.

Micah: Yes.

Andrew: So I have a year on everybody else, because there’s a gap of what, 60 episodes, it sounds like? Dang.

Micah: Well, one thing I think we should just take into consideration here – and I appreciate being the runner-up, but the runner-up is just the first loser, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Andrew, he’s coming for you.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: No, the one thing I will say is, it was mentioned that not all of us were there at the very beginning. And not only that, we used to rotate hosts early on.

Eric: Oh.

Micah: Whereas I believe…

Andrew: Except for me, apparently.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: No, but you, Ben, and Kevin usually were always on the episode, from what I remember.

Eric: That tracks, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, okay, okay. I’m sorry, y’all. But yeah, we did have a panel of seven at one point, I think, so we really needed to rotate everybody out. It was just too big of a panel.

Laura: Oh, yeah. And I remember when we tried to have everyone on, it was just a disaster.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: And an editing nightmare, so I’m glad.

Micah: We used to put a little period into Skype or something like that. Remember that?

Andrew: What?

Laura: Oh yeah, when it was your turn to talk!

Micah: When you wanted to talk.

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah. And then wasn’t it…? Ben renamed me to “Douche,” so then it said “Douche said period.”

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: That sounds like him.

Micah: Not surprising.

Eric: Old trauma gets relived.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Well, Micah, you did us no favors by framing the runner-up as the next loser because I’m going to keep going and…

Micah: The first loser. The first.

Eric: The first loser. Yeah, okay. The second loser, then, the next runner-up, is me. You guys, this is my 400th episode of MuggleCast.

Andrew Oh, wow. What beautiful timing.

Eric: Beautiful timing. So I’ve been on 80% of all episodes. I’m thrilled to be here.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And just behind me…

Laura: The third loser.

Eric: … at 238 episodes is Laura.

Laura: Yeah, I quit for several years and then came back.

Andrew: Quit’s not the right word. You were off on other adventures.

Laura: Well, yeah. I graduated and I was like, “Oh, I’m moving to Costa Rica. I’m not going to be able… I’m going to be teaching; I’m just not going to have the time for podcasting.” So I think I emailed you, Andrew, and I was like, “I think I’m going to have to bow out of everything.” It was a sad day.

Andrew: Yeah, that was a dark time. Yeah, I missed seeing Laura’s periods in the Skype chat.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: The show lost its voice of reason.

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Micah: It lost its direction.

Eric: Yeah. Well, it was about 100 episodes ago that Laura became permanent again.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: So congrats, Laura. And then here’s some other fun numbers because we’re now getting into the territory of hosts that are no longer regular on the show. So the next highest numbers are Ben Schoen has 98 episodes; Jamie just behind him at 87; Kevin’s been on 54 episodes; oh, Matt Britton is right in there, 72 episodes for Matt; and then Mikey B. at 36 episodes; and Elysa at 14.

Andrew: All right. Wow. Well, I’m going to be off for the next year to give you guys a chance to catch up.

[Eric laughs]


Game: Finish the episode title


Andrew: All right, so we have another game here related to the history of the show. Eric, you were looking back at the episode titles, right?

Eric: Yeah, part of the fun of doing this spreadsheet was I actually did the listeners a favor this time and I went and put the episodes in. Originally, when we first sourced this, I did the episode number; I said, “Give me the episode title as well as when it came out.” I did that work this time with Meg. But so I have these old episode titles and I want to quiz you guys on what you think the correct title of MuggleCast was. Episode title one: “His Mother’s ______.” Your choices are “His Mother’s Eyes,” “His Mother’s Hair,” “His Mother’s Makeup,” “His Mother’s Ankles.”

Andrew: Yeah, and I’ll just add, we had some really weird episode titles back in the day. That’s part of the fun of this segment. We don’t do this anymore because for potential new listeners or current listeners, you’re looking at these and you’re like, “I have no clue what this is about. Why do I want to listen to this?”

Eric: Yeah, none of the episode titles that I found fun enough to pull are from after 402. I didn’t even leave the 400s.

Andrew: That’s when we changed, okay.

Micah: It’s all about the SEO, right, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly, exactly. All right, so I’m going to say “His Mother’s Ankles,” because “His Mother’s Eyes” is too serious. We were probably trying to have fun, so I’m saying “Ankles.”

Laura: Yeah, it’s funny because I feel a strong sense that the answer is “Ankles.”

Eric: Well, that’s the thing; it’s dormant. It’s in our repressed memory. [laughs]

Micah: Exactly. I’m going to agree; I’m going to go with D, “Ankles.”

Eric: You guys are all correct.

Andrew: Woohoo! It’s like one of us wrote it.

Micah: One of us probably did.

Eric: Well, yeah. This is Episode 032. Episode 32.

Laura: What happened in this episode to make us call it this?

Micah: I’m going to say Ben or Jamie and just leave it at that.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Okay, next one: “Order of ______.” Is it “Fries,” “Order of Micah,” “Order of Toast,” and “Order of Canon”?

Andrew: I’m going to say “Fries.” We were probably talking about Order of the Phoenix and somebody accidentally said fries or something.

Micah: I’m going with the “Order of Micah.”

Laura: Yeah, I have a strong sense that it’s “Micah.”

Andrew: The Force is strong with Laura this morning. Or is it?

Eric: Yep, it sure is. It’s “Order of Micah.”

Andrew: Wow, okay.

Eric: Yeah, that’s Episode 211.

Laura: Look at all these repressed memories coming back.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Okay, next title: “______ 2009.” Is it “Azkatraz 2009,” “Cascada 2009…”

Micah: Jesus.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: “Best of 2009…” We had some functional titles even back then. Best of, Year in Review… or “BobFail 2009”?

Micah: [laughs] I’m going with “BobFail.”

Andrew: Yeah, I’m pretty sure it was “BobFail.”

Eric: It’s too random; I wouldn’t have come up with that alone. [laughs] Do you guys remember why “BobFail”?

Andrew: Was there a Bob on the set of one of the movies?

Eric: I think so.

Andrew: And we were like, “That’s a Bob fail.” It says in the shownotes, “The term BobFail is created on the show as Micah tells the story of putting a USA Today writer in his place.”

Micah: What?

Andrew: So maybe a USA Today writer wrote something incorrect about a Harry Potter movie or book?

Micah: I do not remember doing that, but nice. I’ll have to go back and listen.

Eric: Okay, next title: “Fluffy and the ______.” “Fluffy and the Hydrant,” “Fluffy and the Pokéflute,” “Fluffy and the Sax Solo,” and “Fluffy and the Pillow”?

Andrew: I think it’s B.

Laura: It’s the “Pokéflute.”

Micah: “Pokéflute,” yeah.

Eric: Of course it’s the “Pokéflute.”

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Well, the reason I remember that is because I want to say that we made comparisons to Snorlax and waking Fluffy up the way you wake Snorlax up.

Andrew: Definitely.

Eric: Quite apt. This is a hard one intentionally: “Spiders, Vampires, ______, and Wizards.” Kind of a long title.

Andrew: This is a hard one.

Laura: Yeah, I don’t know.

Eric: Yeah. Is it “Books,” “Lords,” “Werewolves,” or “Centaurs”?

Andrew: I’m going to say “Werewolves.”

Micah: I’ll go with…

Laura: I’ll do “Centaurs.”

Micah: “Centaurs,” yeah.

Eric: Wow. Okay, we’re all wrong.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: All right. Finally.

Eric: The correct answer… and Laura and Micah were on this episode. I checked.

Laura: So we should remember. [laughs]

Andrew: No excuses, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, it’s Episode 139. I was not on it; I can’t say why it’s called that. But “Spiders, Vampires, Lords, and Wizards” was the correct title.

Andrew: Okay, no clue why it was titled that.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: I’m glad that… well, you probably discussed, you know, creepy things.

Andrew: I guess so.

Eric: Like lords.

Laura: And it sounds like we were trying to come up with a more serious title.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: It was the beginning of search engine optimization. “What can we do?” Okay, second to last game round: “Midnight ______.” “Midnight Son,” “Midnight Spells,” “Midnight Squib,” “Midnight Serenade”?

Andrew: I’m going to say “Son,” S-O-N. Maybe it was a Twilight reference to Midnight Sun, S-U-N?

Micah: I’m going to say “Squib.”

Laura: Yeah, that’s what I’m drawn to as well, and I don’t know why.

Eric: Well, it’s right. “Midnight Squib,” Episode 263.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: You guys are good at this game.

Laura: It’s because we know ourselves. We’re looking back 15 years ago and thinking about what we thought was funny at the time.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, I mean, that was March 27, 2013, so eight years ago.

Laura: Oh, I wasn’t even on that then! How do I know this?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: But you still know us well.

Eric: Yeah, it was Andrew, Ben, me, and Micah. Okay, so this next one and the last one; round seven of this game. “Laura” has appeared in the title of MuggleCast episodes multiple times, so the question now is: Which one of these is not a MuggleCast title? So the title is “Laura ______.” Which one is it not? “Laura’s Questions,” “Laura’s Pants,” “Laura Leaves,” and “Laura Gambon.”

Laura: Okay, so we all know, yeah, “Laura’s Pants” is real. I’m pretty sure “Laura Gambon” is real?

Micah: Yeah, I think so.

Laura: I’ve been the staunch defender of Michael Gambon for years.

Andrew: And we were like, [in an obnoxious voice] “Why don’t you marry him?” Probably.

Laura: Yeah, and I was like, “Okay!”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: I don’t know.

Micah: I’m going to say C…

Andrew: “Laura Leaves”?

Micah: … because I don’t know that we’d be as direct to be like, “Laura’s gone.”

Andrew: Yeah. “Laura’s Questions” rings a bell for me, too, so I’m going to say “Leaves” as well.

Laura: Yeah. I also just feel like that would be such a weird title. So yeah, I think it was C.

Eric: Well, I actually just looked this up, and the last major episode you were on before big hiatus was 187, “Magic Is Muscle,” or 181, “Nothing Less than Ultimate.”

[Laura laughs]

Eric: These titles are not any less weird than “Laura Leaves.” But anyway, yes. So Episode 79 of MuggleCast is “Laura Gambon.” Episode 97 is “Laura’s Pants.” There’s actually “Laura’s Pants, Part 2” like, 100 episodes later.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Eric: And 115 is “Laura’s Questions.” We did not have an episode titled “Laura Leaves,” and I’ll tell you what, I pray to God that we never do.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Aww, shucks.

Micah: That was fun.

Andrew: All right, so a bit of news before we get to some Valentine’s Day-related content. Just wanted to mention that Fantastic Beasts 3 has actually paused filming again, after a cast member tested positive for COVID. Now, interestingly, they were seemingly only a couple days away from finishing. And there’s rumors that it may have been an actual cast member, and maybe a prominent cast member, who tested positive for COVID. It’s kind of crazy that they were so close to finishing filming, and then had the pause. So now the movie is going to be pushed back another year.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: August 2025.

Micah: This is their lost episode.


Potter Pickup Lines


Andrew: So now that we’re approaching Valentine’s Day, we thought we could have a little fun and get people ready for the Hallmark holiday. Maybe your loved one is really into Harry Potter, or maybe you want to meet somebody who loves Harry Potter as much as you do. And how do you do that? You prepare some Harry Potter pickup lines. We found our favorites. If you like any of these, feel free to write them down. But I’m going to set the mood first.

[Sensual mood music plays]

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: You must be a Snitch, because I’ve been Seeking you my whole life.

Laura: Ooh, yeah.

Micah: Well, you must play Quidditch. I know a Keeper when I see one.

Laura: You’re what Amortentia smells like to me.

Eric: You know, you don’t have to say “Lumos” to turn me on.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Did you just use the Stupefy charm? Or are you a natural stunner?

Micah: Are you a Dementor? Because you take my breath away.

Laura: Baby, are you a Horcrux? Because you’ve got a piece of my soul.

Eric: You don’t need Expelliarmus; your smile is disarming enough.

Andrew: I am very interested in exploring your Chamber of Secrets.

Laura: Oh my God.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: What?

Micah: Well done.

Eric: I knew that had to be in there somewhere.

Laura: Yeah, I know. It’s just, that’s a throwback.

Andrew: That’s the mild version of that.

Micah: Yeah, it really is.

Eric: The other one is, what, “Mind if I Slytherin?”

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Basilisk, yeah. Is this the Hogwarts Express? Because it feels like you and I are headed somewhere magical.

Laura: On a scale of one to ten, you’re nine and three quarters.

Andrew: If I heard that one, I’d be like, “What is stopping you from calling me…?”

Eric: “What can I do for that other one quarter?”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: It’s one of those pickup lines that’s like, lightly insulting.

Andrew: [laughs] Is it?

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Eric: When I look into the Mirror of Erised, I see you giving me your number.

Andrew: My love for you burns like a dying phoenix.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: If I wear my Invisibility Cloak, could I visit your Restricted Section tonight?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Girl, you’re finer than the difference between a hex and a curse.

Eric: I need a happy memory to conjure a Patronus. Will you kiss me real quick?

Andrew: You may be a Muggle, but mm, that body is magical.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Hagrid is not the only giant on campus, if you catch my drift.

Andrew: I like the extra “if you catch my drift.” [laughs] Like, yeah, we definitely know where you’re going with that.

Eric: Yeah, we got it. We got it. And this episode now has an R rating, thank you very much.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: I may not be the Boy Who Lived, but I can still be your Chosen One.

Eric: Aw, you said that all hopeful at the end there.

Laura: I tried to pick G-rated items because I knew you guys were going to get dirty.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Me too. You know, when I said “Accio hottie,” I didn’t think it would actually work.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Girl, are you a Death Eater? Because Azka-DAMN!

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, we do try to be family friendly on the show when I was looking for pickup lines. Oh my gosh, there are some hilarious ones that are really inappropriate. Maybe another time we’ll do those.

Eric: Maybe bonus MuggleCast.

Laura: Yeah, behind the paywall.

[Sensual mood music ends]


Discussion: Popular headcanon ships


Laura: Well, I thought that we could, in recognition of Valentine’s Day, talk about some of the most popular alternate universe or headcanon Harry Potter ships. A ship refers to a relationship. This is very big in the fan fiction community; if you’re sorting through different original stories, you can look based on the ship. And I picked a few of the most popular ones for us to talk about, but I thought that we could consider them and think about where in the series their turning point could have been to actually make these relationships a reality.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I love this.

Laura: So we’re going to start with Drarry, Draco and Harry. This is one of the most popular ones.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: On its face, it definitely seems like one that is kind of hard to imagine, because you’re…

Andrew: How dare you?

Laura: [laughs] What do you mean, how dare me?

Andrew: No, no.

Laura: Because Draco is really horrible to Harry throughout the series.

Eric: Yeah, they hate each other.

Laura: Yeah, they hate each other! But you know what they say, thin line between love and hate, I guess.

Eric: And opposites attract and any number of used phrases.

Laura: Something that I’ve seen represented in some fan fiction is Harry developing more of an awareness that Draco is just another victim of the wizarding war, and we definitely see this in the books. But I think that this represents how a turning point for Harry and Draco could be Harry realizing at the end of Half-Blood Prince that he actually doesn’t have the capacity to kill anyone, and he’s just in way over his head. And then also, Draco refusing to turn Harry over in Deathly Hallows, even though he knew it was him.

Andrew: Something I’m also thinking about is especially in the later books, Draco is having a rough time killing Dumbledore, that little thing, and then doing what Voldemort and his father want him to do. And I actually think in a weird way, him and Harry could bond over their struggles.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Draco wants to be a good guy. At the end of the day, he does get redeemed, and that redemption maybe could have started a little sooner with the help of Harry.

Laura: It feels like Draco doesn’t quite get the redemption arc that I think some people were hoping he was going to get. I mean, we see that he and Harry nod at each other in acknowledgement at King’s Cross in the epilogue, but there’s never a moment of true sort of acknowledgement, I guess, until Cursed Child when Drake is teaming up with the trio.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think there’s only so much acknowledgement you can have and self-awareness at 17, so the only time they were going to get it was at the epilogue. But I think Draco, after the events of Book 7, would have realized how much of a shit he was to Harry and may have shown up and apologized in a big way.

Laura: I would hope so.

Eric: It was fan fiction that really convinced me that this ship was plausible and had merit, even within the years of Hogwarts that they’re dating. There’s some good Drarry fic out there.

Micah: I like, Andrew, what you said about them bonding over their circumstances, particularly as it relates to Voldemort. I mean, Draco is being used by Voldemort, and then Harry obviously has a fight ahead of him against Voldemort, so the two of them could have potentially worked together. And then Laura, you mentioned the saving him in Deathly Hallows. If he doesn’t, Draco probably dies in that room.

Andrew: Yeah, 100%.

Micah: So I mean, a whole saving each other thing; Narcissa saves Harry at the end of Deathly Hallows, so there’s a lot for them to talk about.

Andrew: After Harry saved Draco, Draco could have been like, “On a scale of one to ten, you’re a nine and three quarters.”

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: I will say, there’s a lot of fan fiction where after Hogwarts… because there’s also a thing about only having of age characters, too, in fanfic, so a lot of it is placed after Hogwarts. But there’s a lot of fanfic where Harry goes to America and he’s in a Starbucks and he recognizes the server, the barista, and it’s Draco.

Andrew: [laughs] What? What?

Laura: I have never read this fan fiction. [laughs]

Andrew: Give me one of those.

Eric: Absolutely a thing, yeah.

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: So as part of his redemption arc, Draco is like, “I’m going to go work a Muggle service industry job”?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I guess so.

Andrew: Oh my gosh. Sign me up.

Laura: I mean, I would read this.

Eric: Because it’s the love in unexpected places, right? So Harry is on a work trip or something and then he’s like, “Oh, Draco, I haven’t thought about you in years. What have you been up to?”

Andrew: Wow.

Laura: Yeah. I think also, something like this could be interesting because it does speak to, I think, what is something that’s really common for all of us, which is that everyone grows up, including our childhood bullies. I don’t know if anyone’s ever run into a high school bully, now 15 years after we’ve all been out of school, and realize, “Oh, they’re pretty much just a normal human being at this point.” So it speaks to the ability of growth and improvement.

Eric: It’s kind of like they survived Hogwarts together, because Hogwarts itself is such a security nightmare.

Laura: And they’re like, “Let’s send our kids there.”

Eric: [laughs] It’s still the only school. It’s the best education they’re going to get.

Laura: Right. So moving on to this one – and I’m going to be honest with you, this is one that I’ve really never gotten, but I don’t want to disparage it because I know that there are people who have feelings about it – Dramione, Draco/Hermione. This is one that I always found it hard to get on board with, just because not only does he bully her, but he uses blood status slurs against her. And it’s just really hard for me to see how, at least in a school setting, these two would be able to get past that. Not to say it couldn’t happen, but…

Eric: Yeah. Again, they hate each other, right? So it’s like, “How are these two things…?” I will say, I’ve said this before, and I think there’s some kind of understanding that Draco and Hermione are nearly equals academically. I think it’s based on that line Lucius says to Draco in Borgin and Burke about “You let this Muggle-born girl exceed you in academia, in your tests,” but if that’s true, then Draco is actually probably a hardworking student, and so there’s a line of similarity between the two of them. He is certainly a git, he is certainly very vile, actually, with his criticisms, but I can see it working, especially in the way that fanfic takes it. They kind of… I don’t want to say they gloss over it, but he kind of ends up being a more charismatic, rich, sassy Ron character. He’s wittier than Ron, he’s higher-class than Ron, and so his sarcasm and his insults are seen as having more weight and being more playful, kind of the way that you throw rocks at the girl you love kind of a thing. That’s the Draco/Hermione thing for me.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I do think Draco is a very smart kid; it’s just not highlighted much in the books because other elements of him have to be focused on. So I can see Draco and Hermione getting along from an academic perspective. [laughs] “Hey, this NEWT class, am I right?”

Eric: Study buddies.

Andrew: Study buddies, yeah.

Micah: Do you think, though, a lot of that pairing was born out of the films versus the books? Or was it always there? Laura may know.

Laura: So there are definitely a lot of influence from before the movies in the fan fiction community for this one. There’s also a lot of influence for Snape and Hermione from pre-movies, which is very uncomfortable, and why it was not included in this list. But I think that these pairings speak to maybe some taboos. And also, perhaps the Hermione and Draco pairing specifically speaks to people trying to give Draco his redemption arc through a relationship with Hermione, which I don’t love because it’s not her job to save him.

Andrew and Micah: Right.

Laura: That’s his job. But I get it; I understand why it exists. And I would love to hear from some Dramione shippers to tell us a little more about this, because I’m sure it’s more than just that.

Micah: There’s always that angle, though, too, right, of the girl being with the bad boy, but Draco isn’t really the bad boy; he’s just kind of a douche.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Exactly.

Eric: Well, I mean, if they were adults and this was modern day, we’d be like, “Oh, honey, he called you a racial slur? No, you gotta dump it. Don’t even effs with that. You’re much better.” But actually, no, I remember this; I saw Emma Watson actually had a crush on Tom Felton when they were filming the first couple of movies.

Micah: That’s why I asked about the movie piece.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: She revealed on The Jonathan Ross Show; she says she had a big crush on Tom Felton when she was a preteen. Here’s a quote: “Between the ages of 10 and 12, I had a really terrible crush on Tom Felton. We love a bad guy, and he was a few years older, and he had a skateboard.”

Andrew: Ooh, a skateboard!

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, you know what, though? These people were all pre-adolescent and growing up together, so I’m sure they all had crushes on each other at some point.

Andrew: True.

Eric: Yeah, I agree.

Laura: Speaking of one that I think… it did exist pre-movies, but I think the movies really exaggerated its influence: Harmony, which is Harry/Hermione. Obviously, in the movies, they picked up on something that could have been possible when Harry and Hermione were living alone in the tent, which, I’m not mad at it, but it definitely felt more like they were picking up on the strong chemistry that Dan and Emma had as opposed to this really being a Harry and Hermione thing.

Eric: Yeah. And I think when you read the books, you really start to love Hermione, and I think that depending on how you read the books and how you see Ron’s character, you want her to end up with somebody better than Ron, and so Harry is right there. And in this friend group, I think people just developed a preference, and if they weren’t as sympathetic to Ron seeing how he just needed some support and was really funny, you put her with Harry instead as you’re reading the books for the first time. Let’s not forget…

Andrew: Plus, the assumption as a reader was always that Hermione was going to end up either with Harry or Ron. I think that was always a safe bet. So like you said, Eric, it was personal preference. And there weren’t hints very strongly either way, I don’t think. It was just kind of a coin toss.

Laura: There were pretty strong hints with Ron and Hermione. That was…

Andrew: Early on? Well, maybe in the later books.

Eric: Well, the Yule Ball, right? She says, “Next time muster up the courage to ask me yourself.”

Laura: Yeah, that was the first big one. And just honestly – and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, or if other people feel differently, if you have different interpretations – but I just genuinely, in the original source material of these books, I never got a vibe that there was any interest between these two. Not to say that there aren’t ways that you could make that work in fan fiction; I definitely think that you can. And I think it’s a valid pairing for people to like, just because Harry and Hermione do have so much in common; they’re both pretty mature, and they showed in Book 7 how well they can work together, right? So I think you can make the argument that these two would maybe have a healthier relationship than Ron and Hermione.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And I’m trying to remember, what movie is it where Harry is having a conversation with Dumbledore about Hermione? Dumbledore brings her up and he basically passes on it and just says, “Oh, we’re friends,” or “She’s like a sister,” or something to that effect.

Eric: I think it’s Movie 6. I think he’s like, “Oh, well, that Granger girl I’ve seen you with,” and he’s like, “No, sir.”

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Because wasn’t there a line…? That was how we found that Dumbledore was gay, or Steve Kloves found it out first because there was this line where they were going to have Michael Gambon talk to Harry about girls, and then Rowling had to be like, “Oh, actually, guys…”

Andrew: Oh yeah, right.

Eric: So they knew before it actually came out. Before Dumbledore came out. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. I’m pretty sure there’s a photo of the note that Rowling made on the script.

Laura: Oh, really? To be honest, I don’t see why Dumbledore wouldn’t be able to talk to Harry about girls.

Eric: Like general aesthetic attraction, or…

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I give Laura girl advice all the time. All the time.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I mean, it’s true. [laughs]

Micah: The one thing I thought was probably just worth mentioning before we wrap this up is that J.K. Rowling did kind of walk back Ron and Hermione in a statement that she made just a couple of years ago at this point.

Andrew: That blew up the fandom.

Eric: The Wonderland article.

Micah: Yeah, when she said that Harry and Hermione probably would have made more sense.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I hated this when it happened.

Andrew: A lot of people did.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, well, because it just felt like retconning, but also, it really feels like Ron has been robbed of the things that make him a good character. I love Rupert Grint; I think his casting as Ron was brilliant, but I felt that the way Ron was portrayed in the movies was so wrong. They turned him into comic relief, they took all of his great lines and gave them to Hermione to make her the perfect character, and I just feel like over the years, Ron has been robbed of any ability to grow and develop. So of course, Ron was a stupid teenage boy in a lot of respects in the books, but when all these years later you step out and say, “Yeah, Hermione and Ron would have had a toxic relationship,” you’re robbing Ron of the ability to get better and grow.

Andrew: Definitely.

Eric: Yeah, but at a certain point, that same author agreed that people who ship Harry and Hermione are delusional.

Laura: Yes. [laughs]

Eric: But it’s a trajectory, right? These things… we grow; we reassess. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer there.

Laura: No, I don’t think so. I know somebody must feel very seriously about this one because of the note, but the ship is Remus and Sirius. This has always been a really, really big ship in the fan fiction community. So who made the “Wolfstar 5eva” note here?

Andrew: Had to be Eric.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Actually, it was the most awkward experience of my life, discovering that this was a thing. And it’s because it was the on Harry Potter Fan Trips when we saw the third Harry Potter film. My chaperone – because I was 16, but I needed a chaperone to go on the trip – was this woman named Catherine, who later wrote for MuggleNet, and she was the world’s biggest Wolfstar shipper. And so we were watching the scene where Gary Oldman is hugging David Thewlis tightly and saying, “This is your heart,” and “I know you,” or whatever. Anyway, next to me is the loudest squee…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: And she just sits up on the edge of her seat and is like… [squeals]

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Wow.

Eric: And I’m like, “What is going on here?” And she’s like, “It’s Wolfstar! They’re together!” And it’s like, “Wow.” And all these years later, I can’t deny that there are a lot of overtones in Prisoner of Azkaban the movie, the Cuarón film, for Remus and Sirius. There’s a whole other level, “You’d know all about the madness within, wouldn’t you, Remus?” kind of a thing.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: So yeah, it’s some serious stuff. But actually, I have since come to really feel as though Wolfstar is the most canon-compliant ship, the most canon-compliant gay ship that exists in Harry Potter. I think that Remus has a weakness; Remus has low self-esteem, and it’s the group of his friends that really allow him to grow and see his potential. But James is with Lily. Sirius was never really with anybody; Sirius was never really described in the books as being with anybody. So where there’s a vacuum, where there’s space, readers are going to put things in and assume that Remus and Sirius could have grown pretty close.

Laura: Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of interpretations in fan fiction that these characters’ moments would be when Sirius was trying to trick Snape into going to the Whomping Willow and James saves Snape, and then Remus and Sirius have a big falling-out because Remus is super pissed that Sirius did this, and in all of that drama and commotion, it comes out, and that’s where their relationship gets started. So there’s a lot of really great writing out there that focuses on the potential of this relationship during their Hogwarts years.

Micah: Right. Well, do you think it would be more when they’re transformed, or when they’re actual humans? Or both?

Eric: I think that’s part of it, having this secret life that you share together, right? So roaming the grounds at night, can you imagine how fun that must be? So I think for the two of them, it could have been more like… I don’t know about dating. But there’s also the issue of whether Remus is himself when he’s werewolf, but still, yeah, I think it was all over.

Laura: Yeah, I agree.

Micah: The other thing that came to mind with Remus was I remember from Prisoner of Azkaban when he’s talking with Harry on the bridge, there’s kind of an allusion to something potentially between Remus and Lily, just the way he talks about her. And I think we eventually learned that it’s more just due to her kindness as a human being towards him, but it seemed like he was reflecting back on something that may have been a bit romantic, maybe just from his end.

Eric: Yeah, Rowling’s comments actually said, “There’s a moment in the third Harry Potter film where Remus talks to Harry. It’s not a scene in the books, but he touches on something that’s so, so crucial to events of the seventh book.” And she said that in advance of the seventh book coming out, and so a lot of people were like, “Wow, was Remus romantically involved with Lily?”

Laura: Yeah, and I will say, it’s also a really common thing to see in fan fiction to have Lily be with a different Marauder before she gets with James. So I’ve seen multiple versions of stories that have her paired up with Sirius, or have her paired up with Remus… I’ve never seen one where she’s paired up with Peter.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But it’s always the precursor to she and James getting together. And I don’t know, sometimes it goes down some weird paths, but yeah, it’s definitely interesting,

Micah: Peter is just playing with his wand in the corner.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: But also, I mean, it’s not an unrealistic thing. Think about when we were in high school. It wasn’t uncommon for people to date around their friend groups.

Eric: Yeah, that seems like… looking back, I see how problematic that is, and was, for hurt feelings and things like that. Like, you don’t shit where you eat. But teenagers do it all the time.

Laura: Yep. So this is my favorite headcanon one: Huna, and it’s Harry/Luna. So 14-year-old me, when Order of the Phoenix came out, I was convinced that Harry and Luna were going to get together, just because they share so many deep experiences surrounding being outsiders, and then grief over the loss of at least one parent. And you really see Harry at the end of Order of the Phoenix gaining an appreciation for the way Luna exists in the world and thinks about and perceives things, and I thought this would be a really interesting pairing, because Luna is such a unique character. And y’all know how I feel about Ginny. And I just feel like Luna is so multifaceted that this could be a really interesting pairing.

Andrew: Huna Huna!

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I’m curious, why didn’t you go with Larry? Why is it Huna?

Andrew: Larry? Because then it sounds like a person.

Micah: I know. Just joking.

Laura: Well, also, the ship is just called Huna.

Micah: Huna Huna. I like it.

Andrew: I like this one. I think we were reflecting on this when we were doing our Order of the Phoenix reread as well. I really loved the arc that… Harry at the beginning of the book is obviously like, “What a weirdo.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And then by the end, like you said, Laura, he finally sees Luna’s potential and what she stands for, and that they actually have a lot in common.

Eric: Yeah. Here’s a girl who comes out of nowhere and teaches Harry to see the world a little bit differently. Pure beginnings of romance there.

Laura: Well, and she doesn’t care what other people think of her.

Andrew: Yeah, which is what Harry needs.

Laura: Yeah, I love Harry, but he cares a little too much what people think of him sometimes. And it just seemed like there was a lot of potential here. I totally understood when this didn’t happen in the books. I was a little bit peeved when they suggested that Neville and Luna got together in the movie, because I was like, “Oh my God, this is so predictable, taking the weird kids in school and putting them together.” But this is forever my one true pairing, Harry and Luna.

Micah: I like it.

Laura: And then there’s another one that’s pretty popular; it’s Luna and Ginny. It’s called Linny. I like this one because again, I think similar to Harry and Luna, it pairs people who are different in a lot of ways but also have a lot in common with regard to their connection to death, just because of Ginny being possessed by Voldemort and everything, and Luna’s openness towards considering things that are maybe outside of the mainstream. And I like the idea of the banter that would happen between these two.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, in terms of where it happened or when it occurred, I can only think of the canon examples that we have. If I were trying to defend Linny and say it was canon, I would point out that Ginny introduced Luna to the group. She’s the one who is like, “Oh, yeah, I know this girl, and people call her Loony, but she’s cool. She’s in my grade and she’s in Ravenclaw.” I think there’s more brewing there. They would have interacted when they had classes together. And also, Ginny often defends people in her grade from making fun of Luna; there’s a line in there somewhere about that. So she is always one to come to Luna’s rescue a little bit and say, “No, she’s all right. You’ve got to hear her out. She’s interesting.” She sees the value in Luna sooner than everyone else, and I think that may be due to having feelings for this person.

Laura: Yeah, I think you could make a case for that in a fan fiction, and certainly, there are plenty examples of this out there. A lot of them, at least the ones that I’ve seen, seem to pair them up post-Hogwarts, so in some sort of alternate universe where Harry and Ginny don’t get together. So yeah, I like it. But we want to hear about y’all’s favorite pairings, and if you have any great fan fictions you’d like to send our way, we’d be interested in looking at those too.

Eric: Yeah, we’re getting some recommendations in the livestream on Patreon.

Laura: Heck yeah! Thanks, guys.


Quiz: Which Hogwarts House is your soulmate in?


Andrew: I thought we could do this Buzzfeed quiz together: Which Hogwarts House is your soulmate in?

Micah: All right.

Andrew: And Buzzfeed has a fun feature where we can actually…

Micah: Andrew, you’re right here.

Andrew: [laughs] … where we can actually take a quiz together. So I want you three to click that link in the doc. Okay, so the first question: What’s your Hogwarts House? So everybody just pick your normal answer.

Micah: Got it.

Laura: Ravenclaw.

Andrew: Slytherin.

Eric: Hufflepuff.

Andrew: What’s your favorite class at Hogwarts? I’m going to say Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Eric: Oh, Transfiguration all the way.

Laura: Same. Transfiguration.

Eric: Yeah, if you can get good at it, that would be the coolest class of all time.

Andrew: Which character would you bring back from the dead? And the options are Fred, Sirius, Remus, or Dobby.

Laura: Ohh, Dobby.

Andrew: Yeah, they have such a sad picture of Dobby, too, so I feel like you have to click him.

Eric: I’m picking Sirius.

Micah: Picking Remus.

Andrew: I’m saying Dobby as well. Which Harry Potter sweet would you eat? Chocolate Frogs, Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans, Cauldron Cakes, or Licorice Wands.

Laura: Chocolate Frogs.

Eric: You can’t go wrong with chocolate.

Laura: All the way.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m saying the frogs too.

Micah: I’ll go with the beans. They’re good for your heart.

Andrew: Which character do you most relate to? The options are Harry, Ron, Hermione, or Luna.

Eric: Gosh.

Laura: Luna. 100%.

Micah: Luna.

Eric: I might say Harry.

Andrew: I’m going to say Harry too. Lastly, who do you want your soulmate to be most like?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I hope this answer doesn’t heavily weigh…

Eric: Heavily weighted, yeah. This is like those Houses quizzes that are like, “Are you feeling snaky?”

Andrew: I’m going to say I want my soulmate to be most like Draco; I’m sorry.

Eric: I say Ginny.

Laura: What about Draco makes you want…?

Andrew: Well, he’s a good-looking dude. He is smart, as we spoke about today. He’s got some things going for him.

Micah: I’ll go with Fred.

Laura: I’ll say Luna; that’s of these people.

Eric: I got Gryffindor!

Andrew: All right. Are you happy with that?

Eric: I’m dating a Ravenclaw.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: But are you happy with that?

Eric: I’m very happy with dating the Ravenclaw that I am dating.

Micah: I got Ravenclaw.

Andrew: Okay, and Micah, you are a Ravenclaw, right?

Micah: Yep.

Andrew: So are you pleased by that? Do you want to date somebody in your own House?

Micah: Yeah, sure.

Andrew: All right. I got Slytherin, and I am in Slytherin. [sighs] So yeah, I guess I feel like my Draco answer at the end really weighed my result. But I guess I want that. I definitely didn’t want Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw. I was hoping for Gryffindor.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Laura: Well, I got Ravenclaw as my answer. I also am a Ravenclaw. But my life partner is a Slytherin, so I guess we’ve got some things to talk about.

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: All right. Well, Eric and Laura have some things to work – actually, I do, too, because I’m with a Gryffindor. Well, I did say wanted a Gryffindor answer. Hmm. I think I’m going to believe this quiz and just say I should be with a Slytherin. Darn. Downloading Tinder now…

Eric: And we’re ending relationships. [laughs] To celebrate Valentine’s this year, the MuggleCast hosts, 75% broke up with their current relationships.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: And we downloaded Tinder and we said, “You must be a… this House.”

Laura: [laughs] No, but this is so boring. I don’t want my partner to be in my same House. That’s so boring.

Andrew: Yeah, something nice about relationships are the differences you have with somebody else. Yeah, I agree. And I probably shouldn’t be with a Slytherin because they would probably go and cheat on me or something like that.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Aren’t you a Slytherin?

Andrew: Yeah, uh… all right, so moving on. It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Laura laughs]


Quizzitch


[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What statue resides next to the Prefect’s Bathroom? The correct answer is Boris the Bewildered. Correct answers were submitted by Katie Jane; Ning Chi; Asha Clark Watson; Time-Traveling Unicorn; Lance Dance; HallowWolf; Bort Voldemort; Zoom Tarot; Really Reardon; Ellie Friga; Ex-Nigerian; Nadia; Stephanie; Jason; Robbie; Stacy; and The Seas. And for next week: How far did Harry throw the gnome that bit him?

Micah: Nice. How appropriate for Valentine’s Day.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s my one true pairing: Harry and the garden gnome.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Love at first bite.

Eric: Submit your correct answer to us over on Twitter; use #Quizzitch and reply at @MuggleCast. We got a DM with a correct answer and I ignored it.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh my God, Eric.

Micah: Wow. You’re rough, dude.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Ringo Starr wants to help you out, Eric.

[Ringo Starr audio clip plays]

Ringo: “This is a serious message to everybody watching my update right now. Peace and love, peace and love.”

[Andrew laughs]

Ringo: “I want to tell you, please, after the 20th of October, do not send fan mail to any address that you have. Nothing will be signed after the 20th of October. If that has a date on the envelope, it’s going to be tossed. I’m warning you with peace and love. I have too much to do.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Ringo: “So no more fan mail. Thank you, thank you. And no objects to be signed, nothing. Anyway, peace and love, peace and love.”

[Ringo Starr audio clip ends]

Andrew: Twitter replies only! Nothing else! Peace and love, peace and love, peace and love.

Eric: [reciting fondly] “I’m warning you with peace and love.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: So basically what this means is that people can still DM you until October 20.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Or email or voicemail.

Andrew: Nothing!

Eric: All right, shout-out to Cyrillic Martin, who DM’d the correct answer to Quizzitch the last two weeks in a row.

Micah: There you go.

Andrew: Oh, you just opened the floodgates, though. Now everybody is going to hit up our DMs. Slide into those DMS. They should, for Valentine’s Day.

Micah: Look, Ringo left himself open, though; he should have said a year, because now, depending on when you play that…

Eric: [laughs] It’s not October 20 yet!

Micah: It’s not October 20 yet.

Andrew: “I’m warning you with peace and love, peace and love, peace and love, peace and love.” And he’s putting up the peace sign too. You know he loves them, but please stop. “I don’t want to sign anything anymore.” That was actually pretty nice of Ringo to sign anything that was sent in to his mailbox.

Eric: Can you imagine? Yeah, I mean, carpal tunnel is a real condition. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, but I mean, he’s a Beatle. I bet he got a ton of mail he was signing. All right, well, thanks, everybody, for joining us today for our 500th episode. Here’s to 500 more. I’m moderately confident that we’ll one day hit Episode 1,000, especially if we have a Harry Potter TV series or eight in our future.

Eric: Oh yeah, TV series would be perfect for that. I see us going to about 777.

Andrew: Oh, that would be appropriate. Until then, if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com.

Micah: Unless it’s Quizzitch. Then you just have to use Twitter.

Andrew: Yes, peace and love, peace and love. Or you can call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. No Quizzitch answers that way, please; peace and love, peace and love. Or send a voice memo to MuggleCast@gmail.com. Again, no Quizzitch that way, either; peace and love, peace and love. We’d also appreciate if you took a minute to rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast, and thank you to everybody who does review us. One person was critical of my impersonations last week; they thought they were a little offensive, but that person did still give us five stars, so I appreciate that, and your feedback has been taken into account.

Eric: And before October 20 of this year… you know what, I want to remind people that they can still send snail mail to the MuggleCast P.O. box, which is located at 4044 North Lincoln Avenue in Chicago, 60618. And send your love and not Quizzitch answers there.

Andrew: Peace and love, peace and love.

Eric: Peace and love.

Andrew: You can follow us on social media as well. We are @MuggleCast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, LinkedIn. All of these options help us grow our numbers so that the next time we look at MuggleCast by the numbers, we have some bigger numbers to share with everybody.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: And also, we would love your support on Patreon, Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Again, we’re at Episode 500 today thanks to our patrons, and thanks to everybody who’s tuned in this morning joining us for our 500th episode. And we have this new AMA feature as well; we just launched this a week ago. One of the four MuggleCasters here are going to do an Ask Me Anything each month on video, and that’s a really fun new feature that we’re looking forward to rolling out. Eric already did the first one, and I saw a lot of great feedback.

Eric: Should we announce who’s coming this month?

Andrew: I think we don’t know, genuinely. Who wants to do it? I’ll do it.

Micah: It’s Andrew. Andrew is doing it this month.

Eric: Andrew!

Andrew: It’s me! Send in your questions; nothing too personal. Peace and love, peace and love.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: And I think once a year we’re going to all hop on Zoom together and do an AMA together, and that’ll change the dynamic and the answers.

Eric: I have to say, I was thrilled by the AMA. I thought we got some really good questions; they ranged from book questions to, you know, non-book questions. [laughs] So I thought it was great.

Andrew: And last but not least, thank you for listening to today’s episode. Happy 500. Once again, here’s to 500 more. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura and Micah: Bye.

Eric: Bye, and thank you.


Listener voicemails


“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Ally. I’m currently living in Florida, and I was just calling to say congrats on 500 episodes! That is such an amazing milestone, and you guys have just been putting in the most work. You guys have been doing an amazing job all these years. The first time I listened to you guys was Episode 50; you were actually the first podcast I ever listened to. I remember burning that episode on a CD because I just could not stop laughing at Andrew and Jamie singing ‘Your Song’ and all the hijinks you guys got up to, so I listened to that episode a lot. But you guys have always been there for me through my teenage years, through my adult puberty years where I have no idea what I’m doing. But no matter how confused I am at life, I always know that MuggleCast is there for me to not only analyze the books and get into these hard-hitting topics surrounding Harry Potter, but also digesting what’s happening in the real world and how it relates to the books, especially with all these political things going on. So thank you so much for always just being there for me, and for putting out such a wonderful podcast. You guys are the best, and here’s to 500 more. Thank you so much. Bye.”

“This is Drew from the Gamer News Radio podcast, and I just want to congratulate MuggleCast on making it to 500 episodes! That is absolutely amazing, and not many podcasts could actually say they have made it to 500 episodes. Here’s to 500 more episodes of MuggleCast. Keep up the good work, guys.”

“Yo, I’ve been listening to MuggleCast since I was 12. I’m 25 now. I think Micah is really fun… [laughs] I think Micah is a really funny guy. [laughs] I don’t know why that’s so funny. He just seems like a really chill dude, so he really calms me down. And yeah, I’ve listened to it when I’ve been on a bus, when I’ve been on a plane, in Japan, in America, flying from Vegas to New York. And that five-hour flight, when they used to say ‘Turn off electronic devices,’ I would keep listening to MuggleCast. So yeah, it’s been fun. Hopefully, things continue.”

“Hi, MuggleCast. Happy 500! I found the show shortly after moving from England to Canada, and as an awkward Harry Potter-loving 9-year-old, I didn’t have a lot of friends. Luckily for me, this coincided with the dawn of podcasting, and the first one I ever downloaded was MuggleCast. Hearing your voices really helped to get me through that time. I’ve followed you from MuggleCast to Imprint to Smart Mouths to Millennial, and recently I found myself back here again. We’re under a lockdown in Canada, so catching up on the episodes I’ve missed has been such an escape from the world in a time that I think we need it more than ever. It’s not only a nostalgia trip, but the content is just as fantastic as ever. I’m also a writer, and my goal one day is for Andrew to think that my novels are worth starting a podcast about. So thank you for always being in my pocket. Happy 500.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Shalaria. Just wanted to say congratulations on your 500th episode. So I came to Harry Potter around 2000 as a young high school English teacher, and note, I originally pictured Harry Potter as animation. And I came to MuggleCast from Imprint around 2006, and am still a devoted Ravenclaw listening every week. You talked about early memories; I went to the 2007 midnight release with a bunch of friends, and I was in my 30s at the time and my kids were staying with Grandma. They are now teenage fans, another Ravenclaw and a Hufflepuff, both of whom started the series in middle school. We were firm believers in reading the books before watching the movies and still are. So I just wanted to say thank you for all the years of news, analysis, and geek chic discussions. Thank you and congrats.”

“Hey MuggleCast, Yasmina here. I’m more of a recent listener. I have been incorporating your podcast into my daily routine, so I truly hope you guys don’t run out of ideas. I just wanted to congratulate you guys on your 500th episode; what an amazing accomplishment. I have truly enjoyed every single episode, and I really appreciate the uniqueness and the different inputs that make your episodes much more interesting to listen to. Just wanted to thank you for paving the path for and inspiring many others to start their own Harry Potter podcasts. I can’t wait to see what you guys have in store for the upcoming episodes, and again, congratulations on this very important and huge milestone. Bye-bye.”

“Hi, MuggleCast. Tom from England here. Happy 500th episode. It’s crazy how long it’s been. I’ve been listening since 2008, so it’s been quite a journey, and excited to where you go in the future. Okay, thank you. Bye.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, it’s Lotty. I just wanted to hop on and say congratulations on 500 episodes. I remember 15 years ago doing MuggleCast sleepovers with my friends, and now I’m 28 and still listening to you guys, and I love it so much. You guys are wonderful. Congratulations.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, Emily from Germany here. Just wanted to drop in and say congratulations. I really, really, really enjoy your podcast; it’s the best podcast ever.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, it’s Becky from Sydney, Australia here. I just wanted to congratulate you all on reaching your 500th episode, and for getting this far without ever having the author on the show. I guess you guys were just really ahead of your time with that decision, just like you were ahead of your time entering the podcast scene. I’ve been listening since 2006, and it’s been awesome seeing how far you guys have come, and I look forward to hearing all your future episodes. Love the show.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, My name is Sarah Beth. I’m a relatively new Harry Potter fan as well as MuggleCast fan. I just want to congratulate you all on 500 episodes, and thank you all for providing a place for Harry Potter fans to deep-dive intellectually and completely goof off. I feel like y’all have become my friends over the past several months of listening, so congrats again and keep fighting the good fight.”

“Hey, MuggleCast, this is Audrey from Indianapolis. Congrats on 500 episodes. It’s absolutely crazy that you’ve recorded 500 and I’ve listened to 500 of your episodes. Thanks so much for being there every week, and here’s to another 500.”

“Hi guys, I just wanted to congratulate you on your 500th episode and let you know I’ve heard all of them many times, subliminally or consciously, because I have MuggleCast playing through my headphones every night. You are like my lullaby. I enjoy your episodes so much; I find you and your show so entertaining and your voices are very soothing, so if I do wake up in the middle of the night, it just brings me right back to that happy place, and I so appreciate it. I’m so grateful for your hard work all these years, and cheers to another 500. Take care.”

Transcript #499

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #499, Life As An Adult Harry Potter Fan


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the Wizarding World fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: This week we’re going to be talking about being an adult Harry Potter fan and what it means to still like Harry, and we’re also going to talk with one of our listeners who’s parenting an up-and-coming Harry Potter fan, and that listener is Julia. Hi, Julia. Welcome to the show.

Julia: Hi, thank you. I am thrilled to be here.

Andrew: Awesome, yeah. Now, you are the mom of Wyatt…

Julia: I am.

Andrew: … who wrote in a couple of weeks ago, and we thought, “Well, since we want a Harry Potter parent on the show today, why don’t we call up Wyatt’s mom and see what’s up?”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: The famous Wyatt.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Julia: Oh my goodness, that was hysterical, you guys. Your discussion about his question was… it made our day.

Eric: Well, it was a great question, honestly. It was such a good question.

Andrew: I’m still thinking about it, yeah.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Let’s get your fandom ID.

Julia: All right. My favorite book is Half-Blood Prince, my favorite movie is Sorcerer’s Stone, I am a proud Hufflepuff, I don’t actually know my Ilvermorny House, and my Patronus is a dolphin.

Andrew: I am so glad you said you don’t know your Ilvermorny House because I was just reminded this week that they took down the Ilvermorny quiz.

Eric: They did.

Andrew: Is that why you don’t know it?

Julia: Partially, yeah. I think I just never took it when it was still there.

Eric: You guys, this is America’s wizarding school! We’re all in America…

Andrew: And it’s being erased. [laughs]

Eric: You don’t want to know? You never wanted to know what it was going to be?

Julia: I don’t know; maybe I’m just holding out hope for a foreign exchange program.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Eric: You’re right. You’re right.

Andrew: You want to go to Hogwarts. We get it.

Laura: That’s legit.

Julia: I feel a connection to Hogwarts. I don’t really feel a connection to Ilvermorny.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Well, because of the fact that they dropped the test from the site, I’m wondering if we should retire Ilvermorny House from the fandom ID, because it’s just not fair to any listeners like Julia who can’t take it.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Anyway, how old were you when you first got into Harry Potter?

Julia: I’m only a little bit older than you guys; I’m 38. And I was in high school when the books were coming out, so they weren’t really on my radar; they were being marketed to kids at the time, really. So I didn’t listen to them until my freshman year of college and I went on a road trip with a friend, and we borrowed the audiobooks of the first four books on cassette tape…

Eric: Nice.

Julia: … which was awesome, and that was in 2001. Later that fall, got to go see the Sorcerer’s Stone movie on opening night with a bunch of friends, and that was a lot of fun, and then literally two weeks later I met my now husband and got him into Harry Potter.

Andrew and Eric: Oh!

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: What a magical year for you.

Laura: I know.

Julia: It was. It was a very special year. [laughs]

Micah: Given that it was just the holiday season, I’m curious. I’m just making sure that you haven’t purchased for Wyatt anything like a locket, a cup, a diary, or a snake.

[Everyone laughs]

Julia: No, there’s very little Dark magic happening here.

Micah: Okay. I just wanted to be sure.

Andrew: So we do have a couple of news items to mention. Last week, we did talk about the chances of a Harry Potter TV series heating up with the appointment of a television exec appointed to be in charge of growing the Wizarding World franchise. After we recorded that, we found out from the Hollywood Reporter that a Harry Potter TV series is in the works. Now, this has been inevitable, so I can’t say that any of us are super surprised by it. And of course, we’ve been talking about why it was inevitable for years. But the Hollywood Reporter did say that it is going to be live action; I’m very relieved to hear that. It is going to be on HBO Max, which again, not a huge surprise, and WB is currently hearing lots of pitches from different writers. So we’re in the very early days, and we’re still years from ever possibly seeing this Harry Potter series on HBO Max, but something is in the works. And hopefully in the year ahead, maybe, we will hear reports about the idea that they have settled on.

Micah: It’s just funny; we always have these conversations, and then it feels like either the day before or right on the day of our release, this news comes out.

Eric: It’s you, Micah. You get results.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: It must be. But I will just give an update that that executive has still yet to connect with me on LinkedIn.

Eric and Laura: Aww.

Micah: Very disappointed. I haven’t even gotten a profile view or anything, but I’m assuming he’s pretty busy.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Micah pays for LinkedIn Ultra where he can see where that guy is at any given time.

Micah: LinkedIn Premium.

Andrew: “He hasn’t looked at my profile!” Oh my gosh, you sound like an ex who can’t get over the relationship.

Micah: To your point, it’s not surprising. We’ve talked a little bit about how series like A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones are doing spinoffs now, though I did read yesterday that they are looking at an animated version of that. So Andrew, an animated version of Harry Potter may not be far off after they do live action.

Andrew: I don’t want it. Don’t manifest that, please.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: It worked for Star Trek; they’re doing animated. Everybody’s touching it.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m sure at some point there will be animated, but first, they’ve got to do live action. And I also feel like they will be seriously considering several ideas for TV shows, and by that I mean they might put a couple into development at once, because look at what’s happening with Game of Thrones and Star Wars and Marvel: They are creating multiple TV series in these fandoms because it keeps people subscribed to these streaming platforms year round if they can keep continue releasing content year round. So I see a day for MuggleCast where we will be focused on these TV shows, and like I said last week, recording at 2:00 a.m. to discuss what happens. [fake cries]

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Exciting. Exciting. But there is a big question, too, about how involved J.K. Rowling will be, and there’s already a lot of concern about that, as there should be. I doubt she will personally be very involved, but she will be collecting a paycheck from these things in all likelihood. And by the way, if you haven’t already, check out Episode 483 of MuggleCast where we did a deep dive into fancasting a Harry Potter reboot that would air on television.

Eric: Jennifer Lawrence is still my favorite casting.

Andrew: For Molly Weasley?

Eric: Oh, yeah.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Sure. Okay. You know what? I’ll buy into that now. 2021, new year, new me.

Eric: Aww, thanks.

Andrew: JLaw for Molly. [laughs] Also, MuggleNet is reporting that Fantastic Beasts 3 is going to finish filming this week, which honestly surprises me.

Eric: That is surprising, but I have no concept of time.

Andrew: Oh, that’s true. Maybe that’s my problem.

Eric: Since the pandemic, because we know filming was delayed forever. Actually, I think either the day that they were going to start filming, or the day after they started filming entirely, the whole studio shut down; everybody had to quarantine. So finding out that they’ve managed to record the entire movie so far, film everything they needed to film, is surprising.

Andrew: Especially with just appointing Mads Mikkelsen into the role of Grindelwald.

Laura: Yeah! That’s what I was wondering. I was like, “How much is Grindelwald in this movie?”

Micah: Just a smidge.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I respect the people at MuggleNet, but I don’t know if this is entirely true. But we’re going to assume it is, and in bonus MuggleCast this week, available on Patreon, we are going to discuss what happens now. When can we expect to hear more info about this movie, trailer, synopsis, and why a 2022 release if they just finished filming? So we’ll talk about all that. Patreon.com/MuggleCast.

Eric: Well, I mean, MuggleNet said insiders told them. People on the set.

Andrew: Who are these insiders? Reveal yourselves! Reveal your sources!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: At this rate, honestly, we’re going to get the title of the movie on Monday and we’re going to have to do a whole new episode.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: Oh, darn.


Main Discussion: Life as an adult Harry Potter fan


Andrew: So let’s move to our main discussion today: being an adult and still liking Harry Potter and facing people who might wonder why we still like Harry Potter as adults. And this is going to be kind of a two part discussion; we’re going to talk about, like I just said, being an adult Harry Potter fan and what that means, especially when people question it, and parenting future Harry Potter fans. Eric, one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this today is Harry Potter has always been marketed as a series for children.

Eric: Yeah, there’s really been a push against any overall industry effort to get adults to read these books. I’ve known plenty of adults that have found the messages very relevant, and anyone can enjoy the storytelling and the richness of the world, but it just seems that there’s always been this push to keep Harry Potter firmly in the box of kids’ stuff.

Andrew: For as long as Harry Potter has been in existence, there’s been this wide assumption that the books are only for kids, and then that puts adults like us in difficult positions.

Eric: Right, exactly, because of this push… because Harry Potter is always listed… you always have to walk to the children’s section.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And you’re there with Franklin the turtle and Clifford the Big Red Dog, and you kind of feel like… even as a teen when I would go check out Borders’s Harry Potter section, I’d be a little bit nervous about kids running around my ankles next to me. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, and the kids section is always separated from the rest of the bookstore; you have to go through, like, a magic wall that they set up…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: You have to walk under an arch to get to…

Eric: Well, right, because when Harry Potter was out in bookstores, there wasn’t even a young adult section many times. We’ll probably touch on this, because Harry Potter really changed everything, including bookstore layouts. But yeah, absolutely. You had to go through the magic wall with the train that was going around the store with people in it.

Micah: Well, and don’t interrupt story time that’s going on in the little circle with all the kids.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I know, you’ve got to… shhhh. So I can’t imagine what it would have been like for somebody who was already an adult when Harry Potter was huge.

Andrew: We have some evidence of the publishers being aware of this issue, and we’ll talk about that in a moment. But first I wanted to ask, have any of us here ever faced some backlash for being an adult Harry Potter fan? Not when we were kids, but as an adult, so in the past decade.

Laura: Not really, honestly, and I kind of credit that to the change in our culture. It’s cool to be a nerd now.

Julia: Indeed.

Laura: It didn’t used to be cool to be super into fandom, and now it is. I face this less now than I did as a kid.

Julia: I agree, absolutely. The culture has definitely shifted and nerd culture is part of mainstream now. It definitely didn’t used to be, especially when the books were first coming out.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Because as kids, we couldn’t necessarily be open about being a Harry Potter fan. I certainly was not open about being a part of a Harry Potter podcast, and then when my TV tech teacher exposed me, it was like, the worst day of my life. It was like I was outed as gay or something.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: It was that bad. Nobody was making fun of me; I was just so embarrassed that my secret had been revealed. [laughs]

Eric: Well, and originally it felt weird to be me, because I was originally also thinking the books were cheesy and for children, and then when I started liking them, I was like, “Well, clearly I was wrong.”

Micah: And for me, I mean, Julia and I are the same age, and so I mean, I’ve always been an adult Harry Potter fan, so hopefully I can bring that perspective. But I agree with what Laura and Julia both said; as an adult, it’s actually… you find more engaging conversation goes on with people when you say, number one, that you do a podcast, because the first thing people always say, “Oh, well, what is it about? Can I download it? Can I listen to it?” They’re very excited to learn about it. And I think once you add in Harry Potter, the first question you always get is, “Oh, well, what do you guys talk about?” And that just spurs more conversation. And I think, yeah, fandom has become so much a part of our culture now where it wasn’t before, and just the rise of other series that we’ve seen take off post-Harry Potter, I would credit Potter with that, too.

Eric: Yeah, the inmates have taken over the asylum, you guys.

Andrew: I think you all are right. I still think there are people out there, though, who question why adults would like Harry Potter, because maybe they just have always known it to be a children’s series. I don’t have any specific examples myself of being made fun of or anything like that, but I definitely know of some people who would question it, but they just suck, so whatever.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s part of it, right? As an adult, you get to make the choice about who you want to surround yourself with, right? When you’re a kid, that’s not always the case. So I feel like as adults, we’ve made a very conscious choice to surround ourselves with people who don’t make it a habit to crap all over the things that other people like.

Andrew: Great point. And while this is not directly backlash, a common question I’ve gotten over the years is, “You’re still doing MuggleCast?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Even Harry Potter fans.

Eric: I hate this question. I hate this question so much.

Andrew: Why?

Eric: It makes me have to question why I’m still doing this show. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, really? Oh, no.

Eric: I mean, no, I get such joy out of it, which is why. But no, it seems to suppose that Harry Potter is over and died, and we know from doing this show that’s just not true.

Laura: I’ve definitely gotten the question, “What do you guys talk about?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I was like, “Have you read these books?” I mean, it’s an incredibly rich source material there; you can have endless conversations about it. And I don’t think people realize sometimes how involved the fandom still is and how alive it still is, so there’s still a good bit for us to riff on, that’s for sure.

Eric: And Micah is right; usually when people ask “What do you talk about?”, it is this air of they’re genuinely interested. It does foster sort of a good conversation. But we wouldn’t get that question if we said we started a Marvel podcast in 2008 or…

[Micah laughs]

Eric: When did Iron Man come out? 2010? Something like that.

Laura: Somewhere in there.

Eric: We wouldn’t get those kinds of questions.

Micah: I will say though, too, for adults… maybe this is a presumption and not necessarily totally true in all cases, but I think that adults have more of an awareness about the conversation at hand, and so if maybe a kid would start going down the road of making fun of you for it, an adult has a little bit more awareness that they’re going to try and shift the conversation a little bit and get to know a little bit more about, “Okay, well, why are you doing this? Did you grow up reading the series?” Things like that. Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s just something that came to mind.

Andrew: Yeah. To Eric, your point about if we started a Marvel podcast, nobody would be asking that, but I think that’s because there’s still so much new content happening there, whereas in a lot of people’s minds, Harry Potter ended in 2007, or 2011/2012. And of course, Fantastic Beasts is still going on, but it’s just not as big. It’s not as important to the core story as all of these Marvel movies and now TV shows are. But I hope we get back to a point where there’s a lot of new Harry Potter content and everybody’s happy with it, and MuggleCast to even outsiders feels super relevant.

Laura: I will say, in recent history as an adult Harry Potter fan, I’ve not felt the need to defend my position in the fandom except for to offer people a disclaimer that I vigorously disagree with J.K. Rowling. So usually what’ll happen is people… I had it happen recently, actually, where a friend of a friend found out about MuggleCast because she was randomly in a Zoom happy hour call and another friend was in there and they realized they knew me, and my one friend was like, “Oh, do you know that she does this Harry Potter podcast?” And so she messages me and was like, “Hey, I didn’t know you did this.” And I was like, “Oh, yeah. But also, J.K. Rowling is very wrong.”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And she was like, “Okay, yeah, agreed.” So I feel like I have to clear the air on that issue anytime somebody asks me about it, because I’m like, “Oh my God.”

Eric: Good point. Because if fellow adults who are more active and care about that… they want to make sure that we’re politically aligned with them, and I would be, too, yeah.

Micah: Right. And I would just add, too, I think there’s something about the fact that when you’re having these conversations, you can say, “Well, we started this when we were in our teens or early 20s, and we’ve done it for 15 years.” There’s a longevity to it. And it’s become a business, too, and I think when you have that conversation with adults, that resonates with them, right? And I think it can go either way. But to Laura’s point earlier, I don’t feel the need to sort of defend my position; I just say, “Look, I host a Harry Potter podcast” and go on from there, and most of the time the people that you’re talking to have read the books themselves, so it does spur additional conversation, and maybe you pick up a listener or two.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] One of our listeners listening over on Patreon right now, Savannah, she said, “I’m made fun of all the time for liking Harry Potter still. They are lame people.” We agree, Savannah. We agree.

Laura: Yeah, for real.

Andrew: To heck with them. Banish them. Push them through the veil.

Laura: Whoa.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: That’s murder, dude.

Andrew: No, it’s not. It’s just putting them in some weird space that we don’t know anything about yet.

Eric: You’re right, you’re right. Sirius is still alive.

Laura: Andrew is like, “I’m just putting them in a pocket dimension they can’t come back from. It’s okay.”

Andrew: It’s a timeout. Sirius Black is going to come back at some point, I’m convinced.

Eric: [laughs] Well, I will say the one time I actually really felt made fun of as an adult for being a Harry Potter fan was when that big news broke about Zoomers, or… the next generation out.

Andrew: Gen Z.

Eric: Gen Z were calling Millennials out for like, “Oh, a Hufflepuff isn’t a personality, Karen.”

Andrew: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Kind of like, yeah, “You’re 32 and you still talk about Hogwarts and the students there.”

Andrew: Right. Yeah, I wish we remembered the tweet; it was a pretty good one.

Laura: Oh, yeah. No, it was like, “Millennials will fight for their Hogwarts House but they can’t afford their own housing.” Something like that.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And I’ve never felt simultaneously more seen and more angry at being called out.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: You know what? I love it. And just a side note, I think Gen Z is great. Roast us, please.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. It’s funny to read.

Eric: They are the future. I think I want to embrace the younger generation being the future much more than previous generations embraced us.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: So like I mentioned a few minutes ago, the Harry Potter book publishers were aware that adults might feel uncomfortable reading the Harry Potter books with the original covers, because they did look like books for kids. And when you’re reading on the beach, in the subway, in the park, adults might want different covers. So what did they do, Eric?

Eric: So I found… this is one of three primary sources I found that I’d love to talk about on this show. But you know those adults edition UK Harry Potter books that I believe we’ve all become familiar with over the years?

Micah: Yeah, I have them.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Very simplistic design. I think Philosopher’s Stone is just the red Philosopher’s Stone on the front of it. Book 6 in particular is just the locket, and it’s very dark, very sort of covert. These are the adult edition covers. I found out that the ones we know and love of the adult edition covers, all seven of them, they only switched to that style in 2001, but as of 1998, actually… so as early as 1998, between the first and second book in the UK, they actually had another set, and they actually released “For adults” editions that were also… but it was a similar situation. It’s kind of a smokey cover, it’s usually focused on one element; like, there’ll be a dragon on it. But very, very different than the UK children’s edition, which is Harry in front of the train looking quizzical.

Andrew: Right. And those covers are very colorful, I would argue more colorful than the US ones. It is interesting they never did adult editions in the US, did they?

Eric: I don’t know why it didn’t catch on, especially because Scholastic, they would have liked the money. I guess it just would have been another opportunity, because seeing as how… the reason I base that claim is Scholastic has completely redone the Harry Potter book covers about 17 times since 2007.

Andrew: Oh, so many times.

Eric: So they’re not above money grabs, so I’m surprised too.

Andrew: I guess they realized that releasing only a certain cover wasn’t going to impact sales; they didn’t lose out on any readers just because they didn’t release any adult editions. Of course, you can always just take off the cover if you’re buying the hardback, too, so maybe that’s what they were thinking as well.

Micah: I’m trying to remember, too, if there’s anything else besides the covers specifically that are unique about the adult editions from the UK.

Andrew: No, I don’t think so.

Micah: I candidly have not opened the set. I have a set of all seven and it’s unopened, and I don’t plan on opening it anytime soon. [laughs]

Andrew: Okay, so you bought it just to collect. You weren’t hiding from people on the subway.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] No, I was not hiding from people; not for that reason I wasn’t hiding from people on the subway.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But I do think it’s an interesting marketing technique, though, that Bloomsbury came up with. And it is, to your point, also interesting that they never went down that road, really, in the US. They stuck with Mary GrandPré and her illustrations for the US editions. But clearly, there was a concern.

Eric: So further talking about the industry shift and them putting Harry in the children’s box, if you guys remember back in the late 90s/early 2000s, Harry Potter was obviously becoming the global phenomenon that it is now, and it was just topping the New York Times Book Review bestseller list constantly. Something like 57 or… no, 79 weeks, I think, was the record. So the New York Times, tired of seeing what was then the four Harry Potter books coming out on the top of the list all the time, actually created a New York Times Book Review children’s list. So Harry Potter was still topping the list, but they moved it to the children’s list so that other books… and there’s a lot of good comments I got, quotes I was reading about why that was a good thing. Apparently, some publishers were advocating for such a move, because the cluster of children’s books at the top of the adult list could keep deserving adult books off the list. But yeah, the editor of the Book Review said, “The time has come when we need to clear some room,” and it’s because this children’s… rather than embracing the children’s book that’s a really good world-building story for all ages, they’re like, “You know what? These books are getting in the way. They’re not giving adult books their due. We’re going to create a separate list.”

Laura: It’s like, actual market manipulation.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Hmm, interesting.

Laura: I feel like I can speak to that after the last few days living on this planet.

Andrew: They pulled a Robin Hood.

Laura: But yeah, I mean, it’s just moving the goalposts, right? And as we’ve established here on the show, there are plenty of adult themes in the Harry Potter books. And I think for people who maybe aren’t super familiar with the stories, they just hear “Harry Potter” and they think of it as being synonymous with “Oh, that’s a children’s story,” and I actually think, especially as the book goes on, that’s not always the correct categorization.

Andrew: Would you call, Laura, the later books, books for adults? Or not children’s books?

Laura: They’re kind of multifaceted, right? One of the things that I always admired about the Harry Potter books is that they don’t infantilize children.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Sometimes there can be this infuriating tendency towards treating children like they can’t understand darker, more adult concepts, and I think that is bogus. But maybe Julia might have some other thoughts on that topic. So I don’t know; I think that… I get for categorization purposes they have to stick Harry Potter somewhere, but sometimes I feel like constantly trying to create children’s spaces to shoehorn it into isn’t necessarily the most accurate way to depict what the books are about.

Julia: Yeah, I agree. I think that they really transcend categories, especially the last three books; they definitely get a whole lot darker after Goblet of Fire.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, especially after you read… if you read the whole series and then go back to 1 or 2, you’re like, “Wow, there is nothing happening here compared to what happens in the later books.”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Right.

Andrew: The upside of creating this children’s bestseller list is that it probably featured a lot of children’s books that would never have been featured otherwise.

Laura: True.

Andrew: So at least there was that.

Eric: Yeah, and I’m quite comfortable with the series being nestled under young adult, even if it’s not… and I don’t think it’s like just naming it something else, like, “Oh, I feel uncomfy that it’s not being called children when I’m not a children,” but I mean, the heroes are 17 years of age at the end, so I feel like that’s a big deal, as the same age as the characters. And young adult has come to be much more widely respected as also meaning angsty, intelligent, relevant; these are the lessons you will need as a young adult when you go into the larger world, and I think Harry Potter actually fits quite comfortably under young adult lists.

Micah: Well, I just hope that the record extended. So if they were on the New York Times bestseller list for however many weeks, and then they move to children, they don’t lose the record just because they made that shift.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: They have so many different categories now, though. I’m looking. They have a bestselling children’s picture book section, and middle grade hardcover section, and then young adult hardcover, which is probably where Harry Potter would maybe go now. So they’ve really… they’ve added a bunch of categories over the past couple of decades.

Micah: Makes sense.

Andrew: And yet as we talk about all this, “Harry Potter is for kids” or “Harry Potter is for adults too,” they just always market it to children still, and I think that’s one of the most frustrating parts about this.

Micah: It’s bad marketing, honestly, and here’s why: because most of the fans are not kids anymore, right? And I understand appealing to a new generation, but if you want to appeal to the core base of fans, you need to look at people in their 20s and their 30s.

Andrew: Right, right. I always go back to the theme parks. Whenever you see commercials for the theme parks, it’s nothing but kids. And I also think back to when they opened the first theme park in 2010. There was this grand opening moment, and Dan Radcliffe walks into the park surrounded by children. [laughs] And I’m there like, “I’m excited too. Can I be excited, please?”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: They just leaned so hard into that, and maybe they’re starting to…

Micah: Grow up, Andrew.

Andrew: What? Grow up? Yeah, I know.

Micah: Grow up. Go to Disney.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: That’s another thing that’s hotly debated all the time. I mean, Disney Park fans are adults, and yet always marketed towards children. And then you always hear those comments from adults, like, “All these Millennials are obsessed with Disney, grow up, blah, blah, blah.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I think they are starting to come around to marketing more to people like us. I’m thinking like, the Wizarding World online store, I see photos of adults like us. Or you think about Hot Topic or BoxLunch. We’re talking about how being a nerd is cool; they really lean into marketing to adults. But yeah, it’s been a long time coming, and we’ll see what they do in the years ahead. I’m not holding out hope, though, because… I mean, I guess on the other hand, these kids are the next generation so they want to market to them so they can have them hooked in for the next 30 years.

Eric: We talked about this on a recent episode, but the Wizarding World theme park is a great place to go to get a beer.

Andrew: Yeah, and the secret menu!

Eric: Oh, yeah, the Long Island that’s on the secret menu at the Hog’s Head.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But yeah, definitely these are adult spaces. And if you grew up with the books, you are an adult now, and you can enjoy these places, too. So that’s a good point. But my favorite source that I found when researching Harry Potter as a children’s book, what’s the pressure like, I found this 2003 article in The Telegraph called “I worry for Harry’s adult readers,” and it was published, like, the weekend after Harry Potter 5 came out in the UK. And it’s by this guy called Stephen Pollard, again, in The Telegraph. And here’s two choice quotes from this article: “The number of adults reading Harry Potter for themselves should hardly be surprising, given the infantilization of our culture.” It’s this whole article complaining about how so-called adults are embracing more and more children’s literature. He says, “Regression into childhood is the defining characteristic of modern culture. Computer games, pop music, loutishness, and fast food are all part of the same phenomenon – behaving as a child but in the body of an adult.”

Andrew: “And fast food.” That’s my favorite part of that sentence. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, yeah, that’s just kind of like, “And why don’t you throw in the picket fence?” Just be like, “Kitchen sink, just anything.”

Julia: What a bummer for this dude.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: This dude sucks.

Andrew: He’s never had any fun in his adult life.

Micah: Yeah, what does he do for fun?

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: In the article, he talks about going to see The Lion King on Broadway and hating it, but being surrounded by the people who…

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: I know, I know. But being surrounded by all these people who love it, and he’s just like, “This is childish. This is crazy.” So yeah, this is the most outspoken voice that could possibly exist. [laughs] But yet, something touches me: this whole thing about behaving as a child in the body of an adult. I hate to say it, but I still feel, at some times, 17 years old, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that we have… this was written 17 years ago, you guys. I feel like he was on to something only in that it was occurring, and not necessarily… I don’t share at all his negative opinion of it.

Andrew: These things are designed for people of all ages, and they make us happy. They give us an escape. They help us unwind at the end of the day. This kind of viewpoint is so silly, and like was said a couple of minutes ago, I worry for people like this who can’t enjoy pop music or… fast food. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah. Well, and I’m like, “Have you never felt nostalgia for anything?”

Andrew: Right.

Laura: That’s really sad if not.

Eric: Here’s another paragraph I found from this guy Stephen: “I managed to avoid the first Lord of the Rings film. The critical reception for the second, however, was so overwhelmingly positive – variations on the theme of ‘a stunning cinematic achievement’ – that curiosity, and the accusation that ‘You can’t criticize it unless you’ve seen it,’ got the better of me. After an hour of elves, monsters, and hilarious ham acting – hardly surprising, given the drivel the actors had to work with – I walked out. It was a children’s film shot for and marketed at adults.”

Micah: Harumph.

Eric: [laughs] So there’s his accusation that they were sneaking in or secretly marketing things that were children’s things for adults, so this guy probably definitely supported the opposite, like the adult covers and stuff.

Laura: Yeah, this guy sounds like a riot.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Let’s invite him to our next party. Sounds like a ton of fun.

Micah: For sure. He’s on bonus MuggleCast.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: I assume people read The Telegraph.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s a big publication.

Eric: Yeah, we’ll put him on an episode with Laura Mallory.

Micah: Can I just stop after the first five words? Because I think those are the most important, which are: “The number of adults reading.” And that’s something that he doesn’t… actually, I’m not going to say that because I haven’t read the full Telegraph article, but I’m presuming it’s not something that he touches on. And Harry Potter was – and yes, we’ve mentioned this many times on this show – a once in a lifetime phenomenon. Being grouped in… and we can have other conversations about computer games and pop music, etc. But Harry Potter captured the globe, and it encouraged not just kids but adults to read, and I think the fact that that’s being omitted from what he’s writing here is a big issue.

Eric: I mean, seeing as how The Telegraph was so big, this is just one more bit of proof that there was probably immense pressure for adults to closet themselves at the time.

Andrew: Yeah. So we did go on Twitter, and we wanted stories from adults like us, and everybody was actually pretty positive. We didn’t hear any horrific stories about people being made fun of or anything for liking Harry Potter as an adult. Mother of Hedgehogs – that’s a fun name – said, “I read them before my kids did! And we went to every midnight release from Order of the Phoenix to Deathly Hallows. I wish I could relive those days! And many of the adults in my life were also reading them, so no worries there.” Carla said, “I was over 30 when I first read the Harry Potter books. I got immersed in a wonderful, well-constructed magical world of good versus evil. Yep, I stood besides excited children to get the books, the first at the movie theater. I even spent my 40th at Harry Potter Wizarding World Universal.” Nice, yeah. I have to say, if I was an adult when the Harry Potter books were released, I probably would have felt a little awkward being surrounded by a lot of kids at a midnight release party. Not that it would be wrong to be there, but it would just feel a little awkward.

Micah: Preorder it, Andrew, right to your door.

Andrew: Yeah, but going to a party was more fun.

Micah: Have a house party with some other friends.

Laura: I don’t know. I mean, I remember going to midnight release parties, and at least one of my parents would be there with us. I feel like a lot of kids were there with their parents, so it’s not as though you would be in a 100% child-filled environment. I don’t know.

Andrew: True.

Laura: Julia, did you ever get to do any midnight release parties for the movies or the books?

Julia: I went to the midnight release of Sorcerer’s Stone movie and the midnight release of Order of the Phoenix book release. And gosh, I feel like it was a good mix of people of all ages.

Laura: Yeah, I think so.

Julia: And there were adults that were there without children. I don’t remember being overwhelmed by little kids.

Andrew: I’m trying to remember if my parents stayed with us during the midnight release. I don’t think they did. They dropped us off for one of the books and then picked us up at 12:30 or something like that. [laughs]

Eric: Probably went to the pub next door.

Andrew: [laughs] Right.

Eric: Adult things.

Laura: See, my mom usually came with us because she was just as excited as we were.

Andrew: So your mom read Harry Potter? My parents haven’t.

Laura: Oh, yeah. She was super into it and was reading the books alongside us and…

Andrew: Nice. Cool mom.

Laura: Yeah, she is.

Eric: FencingLibrarian on Twitter says, “I was 37 when Book 5 was published. I couldn’t stand not being in on this global phenomenon.” There, she gets it.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a big thing.

Eric: “While my twin daughters napped, I read. Never had I experienced such an immersive fantastical world. Immediately, I purchased Books 1-4, and I am still a fan.” FOMO is real. FOMO was definitely a motivating factor for that. And then TWJ on Twitter says, “I was 33, recently married (hubby was 43). We watched the first movie to see what the controversy -“ controversy [laughs] “- was all about, and loved the film. My former high school English teacher, Sister Helen, recommended the books, and I borrowed the first three from her.” Man, getting Harry Potter books from your old nun teacher. Amazing.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s a shocker.

Andrew: Blasphemy.

Micah: Maybe it shouldn’t be. That’s what makes me think that our our good friend Stephen Pollard is actually a huge Harry Potter fan.

Andrew: [laughs] Email him. Connect with him on LinkedIn.

Eric: I wonder if he still writes for The Telegraph.

Andrew: Kristen had a powerful story. She said, “I was 29 years old trying to connect with my 8-year-old son after the sudden death of my fiancé. I was numb, not coping and failing to connect with my son. I picked up Book 1 and hoped reading to him would be an easy way to spend time together, with the words already there for me, all I had to do was read aloud. I was a shell of myself and not the mother my boy needed. Slowly we were taken out of our world of grief and transported by magic. We learned to cope with our collective loss and found comfort in knowing ‘the ones who love us never really leave us.’ I was reminded that my love for my son would be his strength, and so over the course of a couple months we finished the books, not knowing all the while we were processing our grief and living again.” That’s really sweet, Kristen.

Laura: Yeah, that’s a beautiful story.

Andrew: Let’s talk about parenting a child and introducing them to Harry Potter. I have a big question here because I have two nephews now. They’re still very young, too young for Harry Potter; three and about one year old. When is the right time to introduce them to Harry Potter? And Julia, let’s start with you. When did you introduce Wyatt? And I know you have a daughter, too, who’s younger.

Julia: I do. Zoey is 8. And I hope that I’m not a disappointment as far as a parent guest…

Andrew: Oh my gosh, stop.

Julia: … because we didn’t have any hard and fast rules for introducing Harry Potter. And I know of other parents who have had rules like waiting for a certain age, or not watching the movies until after they’ve read the books, which, I appreciate that rule; I didn’t think of it in time to enact that rule myself. [laughs] But we didn’t really have a specific age. Part of it is because we’re fans, we didn’t want to deny ourselves the joy of watching the movies when our kids were still little, so they had some exposure to especially the first couple of movies when they were young. But I think that that helps because it gives them an introduction and a curiosity to the characters and the storyline. We like to listen to audiobooks, and the great thing about audiobooks is that you don’t have to worry about the reading ability level of the kid; they can read something above their grade level. I think that Wyatt probably was maybe 6 or 7 when he first listened to Sorcerer’s Stone. But the funny thing about kids is that they love to listen to the same thing or watch the same shows over and over and over again, so literally he listened to the first book for over a year, every single night.

Andrew: Oh my gosh. [laughs]

Julia: And so it takes a while to get through it because it’s like, “Okay, it’s been two weeks starting with Chapter 1. Do you think maybe we can start with Chapter 2 now?”

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Oh, man. He’s going to know the books better than any of us.

Julia: [laughs] He’s 12 now and he’s read the first four books for sure. I can’t remember if he’s read Order of the Phoenix yet or not, so he hasn’t gotten all the way through the series.

Andrew: But has seen all the movies.

Julia: Most of the movies. I don’t think he’s seen Deathly Hallows.

Andrew: Okay.

Eric: I was going to ask specifically about Books 5-7, the later movies, because I know of parents that have said to us even, “We’ve read the first four; that’s totally fine,” but they wait a couple years; they really want to make sure their kids are old enough for the source material.

Julia: So he’s definitely seen Movies 5 and 6. This wasn’t any kind of conscious choice that he hasn’t read those books yet; this is just his own pacing.

Laura: I love that.

Julia: I think for sure he’s ready for it, and he… it’s fun, because he knows what to expect later. But there are things that aren’t explained in the movies that he’s picked up on, and we won’t explain those things to him. “Oh, sorry, you’ll just have to read the books.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: That’s great.

Julia: So it helps… it keeps him interested. And same goes for Zoey, too; she finally let me put on Chamber of Secrets for her to listen to at night after listening to the first book for, I don’t know, well over a year every night.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Laura: I love that you’re letting them move at their own pace. I get a little confused sometimes when I hear about hard and fast rules. I can understand if you’re a really big fan, if you want to decide that the kids need to read the books before they see the movies; that’s fine. But I was raised in a similar household, it sounds like, in terms of what you were allowed to read, where my parents were sort of like, “Hey, if she’s old enough to read it and understand it, then it’s fine.”

Julia: Absolutely. Yeah, not to harp on about audiobooks, but that’s the great thing, is that you’re not restricted to your grade level reading. If the interest is there, then go for it.

Eric: Yeah, my friend Angela is putting the… she actually just had her first child 14 days ago, but even in the womb just having audiobooks on was a big thing for her. She’s like, “We’re starting him when he’s young. He’s in utero and he’s going to listen to…”

Andrew: [laughs] When he’s zero.

Eric: I did ask for clarification; it is the Jim Dale audiobooks, versus Stephen Fry, which I probably think of as being more authentic. But yeah, I mean, you’re talking about audiobooks in the womb; this kid’s going to be a massive Harry Potter fan one day.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Julia: Nice. That’s awesome.

Andrew: Julia, is Harry Potter still a popular book for kids to read? Like, is it discussed amongst parents? Because obviously, it’s what, 20 years old now at this point? So I just wonder if people think about it for their kids, or is it just kind of an old book?

Julia: No, I mean… gosh, I think so, especially among parents who have read it before. I don’t really have a finger on Wyatt’s group of friends as to whether they’ve read the books or are into it, but his band teacher in middle school has Harry Potter stuff all over the band room, and kids are definitely aware of it.

Andrew: So it’s really thanks to all the adults who grew up reading it that kids are currently reading it.

Julia: I think so.

Andrew: It’ll be interesting to see, though, how it pans out over the next century. Maybe people will be listening to MuggleCast when they have nowhere else to turn, [laughs] and we’re all dead. But hopefully MuggleCast is still available for people to listen to. So final question for you, Julia, about this: The books have a lot of good messages, of course. Are there any bad messages that you’re like, “Eh, I don’t know if I want Wyatt thinking much about that”?

Julia: I think that there are examples of behavior that maybe isn’t great. When thinking of Harry as a role model, yes, he’s absolutely brave and super resilient, but he’s also very stubborn, and his whole “I’m going to do it myself” or “I’m going to suffer through this myself” is maybe not something that is a great message for kids to think about. But luckily for Harry, his friends are just as stubborn as he is; “No, Harry, don’t be dumb. We’re going to go with you.” [laughs]

Andrew: Right, yeah. I guess it also kind of becomes a problem when somebody’s listening to this book with stubborn Harry over and over and over again for a year.

Julia: Right.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Andrew: I mean, actually, I’d like… there was a TV show – I’m not going to say which – that I binged. It was six or seven seasons.

Micah: Blue’s Clues.

Andrew: And this person, this lead character in the TV series, was an egotistical buttface, and I felt like I kind of became that person after binging six, seven seasons of the show. [laughs] And I eventually broke out of it, but I can completely understand this potentially happening to kids who might read Harry Potter and experience stubborn Harry for an extended period of time.

Micah: Or want to get into witchcraft and start casting spells on other kids.

Andrew: [laughs] Well…

Micah: I’m just joking because of Laura Mallory.

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Micah: But I do think, though, there’s something about letting kids read the book for themselves just at face value, and then if they do read it again, or as they get older – kind of like what we’re doing with the show – then you can reflect back on things that maybe are a little bit more adult in nature and maybe that you didn’t pick up on the first few times that you read the series.

Julia: I think overall the positive messages outweigh the negative messages. They might be things that kids might not pick up on the first time through, or even adults might not pick up on the first time through until really critically thinking about the books.

Laura: Yeah, and I would imagine that it opens up room for conversation, right? Obviously, if a really dark theme were to come up, it gives you room to discuss that with whoever is reading it, quite frankly. Not just a child, but you can do, to Micah’s point, what we’ve done here on the show and talk about things that haven’t necessarily aged well per se, or things that in retrospect, like when we were reading it as children, we didn’t think too much about it, but now it jumps out at us a lot more. And I think that it just, for children, it helps them develop those critical thinking skills.

Julia: For sure.

Andrew: To wrap up today’s discussion, I wanted to play a bit of a game with you all. I want to prepare our listeners for any situations they might face as an adult Harry Potter fan, and this segment I’m going to call “Troll in the Dungeon,” and it is inspired by Harry Potter actress Evanna Lynch, who plays Luna. She has a podcast called the ChickPeeps, and it’s a veganism and sustainability podcast, and they do a vegan Troll in the Dungeon segment where they pretend that they are facing vegan trolls. So you all are going to face some Harry Potter trolls now. And Eric, I have one especially for you.

Eric: Ooh, gosh.

Andrew: But Micah, Laura, and Julia, feel free to take on…

Micah: We need to get you music for this, though, by the way.

Andrew: I don’t think we need music, and you’ll find out why.

Micah: Oh.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: All right, so here’s the first troll. This is a person named Cletus, and when you answer, please address the person as Cletus, okay? I’m not in the room. All right. [in an obnoxious southern accent] I think Harry Potter is clearly for kiddies. All you see are kids on the cover, and when they opened that Harry Potter World down in Orlando, all I saw was that Dan Radcliffe walking around with the kids. In fact, whenever I see ads for anything Harry Potter, I’m just seeing kids in the ad, so clearly it’s not for you. So grow up, Micah.

Micah: Well, Cletus, thank you so much for calling into the show. Really respect what you have to say, but have to disagree. I can’t help but wonder, Laura, do you know this person? Do they live near you?

Laura: Um…

Eric: Why would Laura know this person?

Andrew: [still as Cletus] Not everybody in the south sounds like this, Micah.

Laura: In fact, most people in the south don’t sound like that.

[Julia and Micah laugh]

Andrew: [as Cletus] So why is Harry Potter for adults?

Eric: I would say that we were all children once, and even though we are no longer kids, we like Harry Potter because it reminds us what it was like to be a child. It was what it’s like to… you ever feel like the world is wide and you’d never quite understand it, and you ever feel overwhelmed? The Harry Potter books really capture that but in a fantasy way, and they have a lot of humor and adventure. I think it’s a joyful, joyous romp between three best friends as kids confronting the challenges of their day, and I think that’s something that we can all relate to, yourself included.

Micah: That was wonderful, Eric. And I would just add too, Cletus, I think that Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone would be a great first book for you to read.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Wow. Oh my…

Laura: I would ask Cletus, are you a fan of Marvel movies? Or DC movies?

Andrew: [as Cletus] Yeah, they’re all right.

Laura: Yeah, so actually, I think this is really great common ground for us to start out on. There was a time not so long ago where you would have been ridiculed for liking those things, because it wasn’t commonplace for adults in the mainstream to like comic book movies, and people would have made fun of you for that, so what you’re doing right now is kind of the same thing.

Andrew: Okay. Well said. Cletus has left the room.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Cletus, by the way, was the name of my character in The Sims Online when I was obsessed with playing that game. Cletus Poodum.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He wasn’t country, though. It was very strange. I don’t know why I named him that. All right, so the next person joining us is Alexis. [in a valley girl accent] You’re, like, still a Harry Potter fan? Didn’t you read those books, like, 20 years ago or whatever, Laura? That’s literally forever ago. Why don’t you move on to other things?

Laura: What things have you moved on to?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: [as Alexis] I love The Real Housewives and, like, Jersey Shore. All of these things are still new and fresh. But Harry Potter is, like, forever ago.

Laura: Well, I don’t know if you could call the themes of those shows new and fresh; they’ve basically been recycling the same content for two decades now. At least with Harry Potter there’s a deeper message and interpretation that can happen.

Eric: You know, a good Harry Potter book is like a good cup of coffee from Starbucks: everlasting.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Eric: I really have no more to add than that.

Andrew: All right, and this last one is for you, Eric. This is Herman. [in an old man voice] Hey there, son. I see you’re wearing what looks like a blanket, or like a backwards apron.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: [as Herman] What is that…? Is that a cloak? Why are you wearing a cloak? Do you think you’re a wizard? Because I have some news for you, son, you’re not a wizard. And don’t you get hot in that thing when you go down to Orlando? Why do you dress up as a Harry Potter character?

Eric: Well, sir, I find it to be an excellent way… dressing up in this outfit is an excellent way for me to channel parts of myself that I wouldn’t ordinarily express, and I do it because it entertains people, first and foremost myself. It’s just some play. It’s just some fun. And I never made it into any kind of professional theater group, so I like to try sort of a practice on my own, a little bit of flair for the dramatic.

Andrew: [as Herman] I see, I see.

Eric: Thank you for asking.

Andrew: Okay, that was it.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: No, we need to introduce him to Elvis Dumbledore. I think he would really enjoy that.

Eric: Oh, yeah. There’s a rockstar from his age, yeah.

Andrew: [as Herman] Now there’s an Elvis Dumbledore? I can’t keep up. There’s too much going on these days.

Eric: Well, sir, I will get your grandchild to send you the YouTube link.

Micah: Then go back to sleep.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Andrew, you really put yourself out there for this segment. I love this. This was wonderful.

Andrew: Thanks.

Laura: That last one actually reminded me of a real world example. When we were at one of the Harry Potter conventions – I think it was Portus in Dallas – we were actually sharing our hotel with another convention, and so it was… and I’m not going to get into what they were there for, but we were worlds apart. We’ll just say that.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Jesus. You can just say Jesus.

Andrew: It was a Jesus con, wasn’t it?

Laura: Yeah, yeah. And at one point I was in an elevator and this guy was looking at me for a while, and then he finally was like, “Are you guys witches?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: [as Herman] Are you guys witches?

Laura: And I just looked at him stone cold and was like, “Yes.”

Andrew: And it’s situations like that why I brought Herman onto the podcast, because I think a lot of people see… let’s say in Texas where that convention was, outsiders see people dressed up in cloaks and whatnot and they’re like, “What the hell is going on with that?”

Eric: The getups you see on young people these days!

[Andrew and Julia laugh]

Andrew: I mean, cosplay is a big thing in this fandom and many others…

Eric: It’s huge, yeah.

Andrew: … and so Herman just wanted to know more about it, but I think that was a very open and honest answer, Eric.

Eric: I will say – thank you – when I first started dressing as, at the time, a Gryffindor, I actually didn’t know and wasn’t trying to do cosplay, but actually seeing cosplay be so embraced to the level… it’s leaps and bounds above anything I’ll ever do. There’s people who turn into Transformers and have armor and they make their own armor and they use PVC pipes to have extendable wings. It’s really just… it’s the new way of showcasing some serious technological prowess and talent, but creative expression, the goal inside that I sort of hinted at, is the same. You’re bringing out parts of yourself that you don’t always get to do, and it’s a wonderful time.

Andrew: Right. I still give Eric a lot of credit for wearing those cloaks in Orlando in the dead of summer. Like, man. [laughs]

Eric: Well, because mine was full on cotton twill. It’s a heavy cotton. But now when you go to the park, the robes they sell are super lightweight. They’re almost jersey knit.

Andrew: Oh, okay. But it’s not authentic, then.

Micah: Time to upgrade.

Andrew: No, that’s not an upgrade. That’s not an upgrade.

Eric: My cloak could actually survive northern Scotland weather in the winter.

Andrew: Right, yeah. [laughs]

Micah: There you go. I just can’t wait for Cletus to meet southern Hagrid.

[Julia laughs]

Andrew: [as Cletus] I don’t know who Hagrid is, but I guess I’ll find out when I read that Stone book you mentioned. [back to normal voice] All right, well, if anybody has any feedback today about our discussion about being an adult Harry Potter fan, about parenting a child and introducing them to Harry Potter, write in. MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can email that address, or you can send a voice memo there using your phone, or you can call 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. We also have the contact form on MuggleCast.com. No matter how you get in touch with us, we do read or listen to your message, and we can’t get back to all of them, but we try to get back to as many as possible, and we really appreciate reading all of your feedback. It’s super helpful and inspiring, honestly, because when we do this podcast, we’re not hearing from you in real time, unless you’re in our patron live chat. So we love getting the feedback throughout the week.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: What is Albus Dumbledore’s favorite flavor of jam? And the correct answer… now, this is his secret make-sure-he’s-not-an-imposter question. He tells Harry the answer to this: raspberry jam.

Andrew: He would.

Eric: Yeah, he would. I’m actually surprised; raspberry is like, tame for Dumbledore. You would expect almost a double flavor combination or something.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: But LanceDance – who submitted this, the correct answer, to us over on Twitter, among with others – added this GIF that’s somebody with a martini glass shouting “Raspberries”? It’s a blonde woman? I don’t know what this is from. And she’s holding champagne. But anyway, now I think that raspberry is perfectly Dumbledore because I saw this GIF. Anyways, correct answers were submitted also by Ali Frega, Time-Traveling Unicorn, Chelsea B., Kati Jane, Ginny, Robbie, Tori, Grace, Thunder Boom, Chellearia, Billy, HallowWolf, ZoomTarot, Growler, Stephanie, Darren, Caleb, and Deb. I guess I asked an easy one this week, you guys.

Andrew: Yeah, a lot of answers. That’s good, though.

Eric: Thrilled by the participation. Next week’s question: What statue resides next to the prefects’ bathroom? Submit your answer to us over on Twitter at @MuggleCast. Use hashtag Quizzitch. Please do not post mail us answers to Quizzitch, please do not email us, please do not find me on other various social media, don’t LinkedIn me with answers… it’s strictly a Twitter game.

Andrew: [laughs] Peace and love, peace and love!

Micah: You’re not being very flexible.

Andrew: [laughs] Ringo said a few years ago on video, “Please do not send me mail anymore; I can’t take it. Peace and love, peace and love.”

[Eric and Julia laugh]

Andrew: This is Eric’s peace and love. “Tweets only, peace and love, peace and love.” I’m going to start playing that every time you say that. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God. That would be a goop clip; I can hear Ringo saying that.

Andrew: We would also appreciate if you took a moment to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to MuggleCast if they have a review system; thank you very much in advance. Also, follow us on social media; we’re @MuggleCast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. And coming up on our Patreon this week, we’ll have a new bonus MuggleCast about Fantastic Beasts 3 finishing filming, and we would really appreciate your support as well. We’re about to hit 500 episodes, and it’s only because of our patrons that we are hitting 500 episodes. When we launched the Patreon, the goal was to return to doing MuggleCast episodes on a regular basis. At first we said, “If we hit this goal, we’ll do an episode every other week. If we hit this goal, we’ll do an episode weekly again.” And we did hit that goal pretty quickly, and thanks again, thanks to our patrons, we are hitting Episode 500 of MuggleCast next week. What an incredible milestone.

Eric: Wow.

Andrew: Julia, you’re one of the people who supports us out on Patreon. Thank you very much, and thanks for joining us today.

Julia: Thank you, guys. This has been an absolute treat.

Andrew: Great. I know you were very excited to join us, and we were very excited to have you on the show. And give our love to Wyatt, as well.

Julia: Thank you.

Andrew: Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Julia: And I’m Julia.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Julia, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #494

 

MuggleCast 494 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #494, Reviewing the Gadgets and Gizmos of the Wizarding World


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: I’m Laura.

Andrew: And this week we are going to discuss the gadgets and gizmos of the wizarding world, like what makes them tick and what makes them fun. We have a fun guest here with us this week, Dave Jorgenson. Hi, Dave.

Dave Jorgenson: Hi, everyone. I hope I’m the fun guest.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: That’s you.

Dave: Okay, good. That’d be really funny if you brought someone else on like, “And here is the fun guest.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Dave, so you’re kind of a big deal on social media, actually. Tell us about yourself.

Dave: [laughs] Well, that’s… okay. I’ll pretend that’s true.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: Not at all. Yeah, I’m the Washington Post TikTok guy, both sort of a tongue in cheek title, but also it seems to be pretty effective at explaining what I do, which is make TikToks for The Washington Post.

Andrew: Yeah, very cool job.

Dave: Yeah. And I actually think, Andrew, I’d first connected with you beyond listening to the podcast, which was more of a one-way connection on Twitter. And I use Twitter a lot to highlight what I’m doing on TikTok, and it’s also just, for me, a fun outlet. I try to be one of the positive people on Twitter. Not all the time, but I do my best.

Andrew: So you’ve actually been a longtime listener of MuggleCast, right?

Dave: Oh, yeah. Since 2005. Since the beginning.

Eric: Wow.

Dave: I can tell you vividly about… I can remember my little brick iPod. It was one of the first video iPods, and I remember the Half-Blood Prince MuggleCast artwork. That’s what I would listen to while mowing the lawn.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: It’s all very clear. I told Eric all about this when I was on his podcast for like, a full two and a half hours. I couldn’t contain myself. And it really… it’s so exciting to be here.

Andrew: That’s fantastic.

Dave: And of course, the second I’m on this podcast after 15 years, my dog is like, “I’m going to just destroy the living room.” So I’m trying to…

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: She’s excited too.

Dave: Yeah, she’s also very excited.

Andrew: Dave, you mentioned we connected. I mean, I noticed somehow one day that you followed me, and I’m like, “Wait, somebody from The Washington Post is following me? I’m going to give that a follow back!” [laughs] So that’s probably how we connected.

Dave: And as you can imagine – or maybe can’t – I was like, “Oh my God, Andrew Sims followed me back?”

Andrew: Oh, stop.

Dave: No, no, I won’t. I refuse to stop.

Andrew: Okay. [laughs]

Dave: I was very excited, and I still am. And then when MuggleCast followed me back, I’m pretty sure I tweeted it out; I was like, “This is it. I’ve made it. This is what I wanted.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Well, Dave, I mean, you’re a big deal too; you were recently named one of Forbes‘s 30 under 30. Come on, man. That’s awesome.

Dave: Thank you. It was very exciting. I was really happy for about a minute, and then I was like, “Oh my God, I’m almost 30.” So thanks for reminding me, Forbes.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Super cool.

Andrew: Well, you’re the youngest here on the panel.

Dave: Okay, cool. I’ll take that. That’s good.

Andrew: You’re bringing youth to this panel. [laughs]

Dave: Yeah, well, I think I’d also told Eric about this – and I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself – but you guys are frozen in time to me as MuggleCast 2005, which actually, to me, makes you way older, because I was this young kid that was like, “These are the coolest people I’ve ever heard.”

[Laura laughs]

Dave: And that’s still true.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Dave: Andrew is like, “Yeah, that’s us.”

Andrew: We are cool. [laughs]

Dave: Yeah, so that’s still… I’m trying to think of a comparison of… someone that had such an influence on you when you were so young is like imprinted in you as that person, so…

Andrew: Well, Dave, that’s really, really nice. I mean, thank you for saying that.

Dave: Of course.

Andrew: That’s flattering. As far as I’m concerned, I think we’re pretty good in terms of today’s episode. We can wrap it up now.

Laura: Oh my God.

Eric: [laughs] We got everything we wanted out of this. Thanks, dude.

Dave: This was the promo… yeah, of course.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: No, I have to say, I’m a little bit overwhelmed in a very positive way, because your TikToks have really gotten me through this election season…

Dave: Oh, good.

Laura: … so I’m equally excited for you to be here.

Dave: Well, thank you. And I need that. As much as I pretend like I try to brush those aside, look, when people tell me that the TikToks have been significant for them in quarantine, I’m really happy, because there’s definitely mornings where I wake up and am like, “What am I going to make today? I’ll make an Invisibility Cloak!” So I appreciate the feedback.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, so you do tweet and make some TikToks about Harry Potter, too, right?

Dave: Oh yeah, I’ve had this Harry Potter thread for maybe a little over a year, and I just come back to it every so often.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: And the whole point is just picking apart things that happened in Harry Potter that make no sense, but in a way that is clearly for the love of the books.

Andrew: Right.

Dave: But I love to just really… that sort of situational humor of like, “Okay, we didn’t talk about how Ron didn’t get therapy after Peter Pettigrew was in his pocket for years.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Dave: I think that’s important.

Andrew: I was looking at that thread yesterday. It’s like, 100 tweets long at this point; you’re pointing out a lot of inconsistencies. [laughs]

Dave: Right. And the worst and best part is every so often, I repeat myself without realizing. I go back and look, like, “Oh my God, I already said this. I’ve already had this revelation.”

Andrew: [laughs] “I’ve already had this thought.”

Dave: “I’m thinking about this way too much.”

Andrew: Yeah. Have you seen any good Harry Potter TikToks recently, since you’re on there so much?

Dave: I have. I wish I could direct you to specific… you could honestly just look up “My first day at Hogwarts” or something like that, and it’s my new favorite TikTok Harry Potter genre, and there are many.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Dave: And it’s the sort of idea of just… like, “Me being the only Black girl at Hogwarts,” or it’s basically putting people in Hogwarts that you don’t see in the books, and it’s really funny because it’s not…

[Eric laughs]

Dave: To me, it’s the best version of satire because it’s like you laugh and then afterwards you go, “Oh, wait, that was a really good point.” So it’s really fun sort of just different takes on if this person were at Hogwarts, which is exactly what my whole Twitter thread is about anyway, so I definitely encourage looking up that.

Andrew: We were having fun with the “Pottah!” one that Tom Felton kicked off a month or two ago.

[Dave and Laura laugh]

Dave: Yes, so good.

Andrew: That was a good one. [laughs]

Dave: I never would have expected him to be kind of my… and I love all the actors that are in the movies, but he’s probably one of my favorite post-Harry Potter people. I don’t know. He always makes me laugh.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And he still celebrates Harry Potter, which I think is really cool.

Dave: That must be a big part of it.

Andrew: Some of the actors, I think they try to move on, like Dan Radcliffe, but Tom Felton is still like, “Let’s still talk Harry Potter, sure! Let’s do it! Come on!”

Dave: [laughs] Exactly.


Main Discussion: Gadgets and gizmos of the wizarding world


Andrew: Anyway, so like I said, we are going to discuss the gadgets and gizmos of the wizarding world. And we thought that Dave would be a great guest, since he’s passionate about Harry Potter and the show, and this is a fun discussion to be had. And I know, Eric, you came up with this discussion, so why don’t you take it away?

Eric: Yeah, so what is, I guess, a gadget? We should define that for starting this discussion. But I had a very loose definition while figuring out what qualifies and what doesn’t. It’s basically a magical device; a magic augmented device – so it’s something that maybe we do have in the Muggle world, but there’s a magic aspect to it – usually handheld, but not always. And it, I guess, exists to improve the life of wizards, helps them go about doing their stuff. It’s like if an iPhone were magical, right? An iPhone is such a cool technological communications device, and it has apps and helps with organization. That kind of thing is like a gadget, and we see it in the wizarding world. Usually, it’s a lot more simplistic, right? It’s something that has a particular charm on it, like Hermione’s beaded bag, “Oh, an Extension Charm,” things like that. So it’s a wide gamut, but I’ve broken it down into 13 gadgets that we’re going to be talking about today. I think that’s a good number.

Andrew: Yeah, a good number. Yes, this episode is cursed. Go on.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh, wait, I added one, so it’s 14. So we’re not cursed anymore.

Andrew: Oh, phew! Okay, good.

Eric: [laughs] But yeah, so we’re going to be talking… so each one… and Dave, I know you’ll have fun with this. How does it work? We’re going to be asking, “How does it work?” because a lot of these as I was going through, I was like, “Wow, a lot of these do not actually make sense.” Also, do we like it? Is it a cool gadget? Do we think that it’s…? If we had it, would it help us out? Would we want one of these? And also at the end, kind of related but not, how much would we pay to have one in real life? How much is this worth to us as a gadget? And so yeah, that’s really the only bones of the discussion. We’re going to go chronologically through the books.

Dave: All right.

Andrew: Okay, let’s do it.

Eric: So let’s start with the very beginning. It’s a very good place to start. Chapter 1, we see the Deluminator, or what is referred to in the chapter as the Put-Outer. It’s Dumbledore’s Put-Outer, and at first, it seems to exist to just take all the lights from a street – say Privet Drive – and basically allow a wizard to go forth unnoticed under the cover of darkness. And that’s pretty simple. Basically, he clicks it one each time to get the light out, and then at the end, he clicks it and they all flutter back to the street posts where they were. And in the movie, I love the effect. I think this is a beautiful kind of a thing.

Andrew: And the fact that they changed the name of it was very bizarre to me.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Eric: So it’s referred to as the Deluminator I think for the first time in the will-reading, when Scrimgeour is like, “This is what this is called.” It’s the official name, versus… I think what it is, too, J.K. Rowling’s humor in Chapter 1, because she just showed something that puts out the light; it’s like, “Dumbledore clicked the Put-Outer,” and it’s all in caps.

Andrew: So she didn’t feel like naming it properly.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: She was just like, “The Put-Outer.”

Eric: It was being identified by its function, which kind of is quirky.

Laura: To be fair, I think the point of the first chapter of the series is to introduce us to this world from the viewpoint of a Muggle, right? So what would a Muggle call that thing?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Put-Outer.

Andrew: The thingie that removes the light. That’s what she should’ve called it.

Micah: Well, I was also thinking, too, it is Sorcerer’s Stone, so maybe a bit of a child’s book versus Deathly Hallows. Maybe she felt she could grow up the Put-Outer a little bit.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Grow up the words? Age up the words?

Eric: Well, I mean, “Deluminator” is proper Latin, basically. It’s a bit too much for Book 1, right?

Micah: To me, Dumbledore just stole the clapper.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh my God. Thank you for saying this, because that’s what I was thinking going into this and I was like, “I’m not going to be that person who’s crapping all over the Deluminator.”

Micah: I’ll do it, Laura. I’m here for you.

Dave: I’m happy to deliver on that too. To me, the Put-Outer is kind of like she wrote something just to remind herself to change it, and then forgot, and they published the books.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Like, “Okay, I’ve got to bring this up again later so I can change it.”

Andrew: Right. “You guys, I wasn’t done with that one, but okay.”

[Andrew, Eric, and Dave laugh]

Eric: Okay, she does change it up quite a bit. So it does come back in Book 7, but here it is shown to have an additional, way unexpected feature. And by the way, Scrimgeour, I think, says it’s a device of Dumbledore’s own making, so they don’t really have… you can’t get this at the local Walgreens or at whatever the wizarding equivalent of Sharper Image is. This is something that Dumbledore made himself. And we see that when Ron uses it to get back to Harry and Hermione, and basically he clicks the Put-Outer in his bedroom, he’s missing them, he thinks he hears her voice emanating from the Put-Outer, he clicks it once, the light goes out, another light appears outside his window, and then it flies into him – I’m summarizing – but then Ron is confident that he will be able to Apparate, without knowing where Harry and Hermione are, directly to them. And more or less that works. So there’s something here about light and love, right? Two huge… love is such a huge theme in Harry Potter, but Dumbledore’s little Put-Outer has some kind of way supernatural love connection thing.

Andrew: So when the light comes in Ron, it just kind of steers him back to Harry and Hermione?

Eric: Yeah, it’s like it’s the coordinates he needs. He’s thinking about them when he Apparates, but he’s been trying to reach them ever since he left them, right? But he can’t because they’re under such secrecy and protection. But because Hermione I think in a moment of weakness talks about Ron, it’s the first time that she mentions his name in that whole time since he left, and he hears it and that’s when he gets the idea that like, “Okay, this thing of light is going to help me get back to them,” and it’s very intuitive. But so Dumbledore… this Put-Outer either always had that feature, or Dumbledore added it throughout the years, knowing that he wasn’t always going to be around and he was going to give it to somebody in his will.

Dave: And changed the name and got the patent and all that.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I love that this is a multipurpose tool, though. It takes out the light, but it also steers you back to your loved ones in times of trouble.

Andrew: That’s beautiful.

Eric: Well, and I was thinking, how are they related, right? How is light related to…? And this may be overthinking it, but what do we do on this show? How is light relating to…? Don’t you feel lighter when you have love in your life? Or when you think about a loved one, don’t you feel like a million bucks?

Dave: It seems like the… what’s the…? I don’t know; the “cure” is not the right word. But it’s the opposite of what the Horcrux was doing to him, too. Literally description-wise it seems like it’s what brought him back versus what pushed him away.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Micah: Dumbledore must have created this fairly early on, because didn’t he use it in Crimes of Grindelwald? Or was that scene cut?

Andrew: Oh yeah, yeah.

Eric: Gives it to Newt and… or no, he uses it? Yeah, yeah, in Crimes of Grindelwald.

Andrew: Yeah, with Newt. They’re out on the street, I think. I don’t know if you see it. I guess we do.

Micah: I think it was in a preview, but maybe it never made it to the final cut of the movie?

Andrew: I wonder what it was called back then.

[Dave and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Put-Outer or something even more…?

Dave: Just a lighter.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: We touched on this, but how does it work? Do we think there’s…? Is there any other kind of magic that we know is like this?

Andrew: No. [laughs]

Eric: We’re going to get into this as we go through, but in order for this to function, there has to be something magical associated with light in general, right? Light has to have a device ID, like when you… I’m trying to think of… because the magical world, to snuff it out, has to first identify what it is you’re getting at. So I don’t know; it’s a very… I guess Lumos brings light and Nox extinguishes light, so maybe it’s a way of doing Nox but not with your wand; you’ve extended the field of range, right?

Dave: It’s like a Patronus without all the effort. He doesn’t have to think of happy thoughts; it just happens.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, it’s sort of like a light vacuum. I don’t think we’re actually going to be able to explain how some of these work to an extent.

Eric: No, we will fall short. But even just thinking about either Nox or a Patronus, something similar like that, I think there’s value in saying, “Oh, it kind of does work like that.” Is this Cool or Not Cool?

Andrew: I’m going to say Not Cool.

Eric: Really!

Andrew: Because as somebody who believes wizards should not be hiding in the shadows like Dumbledore does with this device in Book 1…

[Dave and Eric laugh]

Andrew: … I can’t approve of using such thing, so Not Cool.

Dave: I’m Team Not Cool, but not at all for that reason. But I love that. It’s good.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: Micah, I’m so sorry. It’s the exact reason that you might think it is Cool, which is that I feel like it is a Swiss army knife, but when you add all these things, it’s like the pair of scissors in the army knife; you’re never going to use it. I’d rather it have just been this pure device that lit up lamps. For me, that’s what I wanted. I just wanted a really cool Put-Outer. I don’t know why I’m so purist in that way, but that’s how I feel about it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’m also going to have to pile on here and be on the Team Not Cool, gang…

Andrew: Ooh.

Eric: Oh my God.

Laura: … because I’m going to add to what David just said: It seems like it should be a really simple device that does a very simple thing for you, and we find out after seven books, it’s actually a security and privacy risk.

[Dave laughs]

Laura: Whoever has it can just Apparate to wherever somebody is, even if they don’t want to be found? No.

Eric: Well, they have to love that person.

Laura: Well, okay, stalkers can love people, I guess.

Eric: Euhh… look, Dumbledore does not do anything simple. He does nothing simple, so I like that after seven books, we get this secondary purpose of the Put-Outer. Is it a little convenient? Sure, but she needed to bring Ron some way back to the crew. So I’m going to go Team Cool. I might be the only one.

Micah: I’m going to go Team Not Cool.

[Laura laughs]

Dave: Yeah!

Micah: Sorry, Eric.

Andrew: It’s a miracle we kept reading these books after that first chapter. We were all unimpressed.

[Eric laughs]

Dave: I put it down for ten years, and then a podcast brought me back.

[Andrew and Dave laugh]

Dave: That’s not true.

Micah: Here’s the other thing… I think, Andrew, you mentioned security? Or Laura?

Andrew: Laura did.

Micah: Laura mentioned security; sorry. Dumbledore creates tools that are security issues, which is no surprise considering he runs a school which is a security nightmare, so no, it’s Not Cool.

Eric: This flows into how much is it worth? How much would we pay for this? I mean, this device, I think even Scrimgeour says it’s priceless. It’s something that Dumbledore made before he died; it’s probably the only one in its existence. I don’t necessarily find myself needing to turn out a bunch of lights all at once, not that are connected to a switch.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: So I don’t know that I’d pay too much for it, but I’d say around $50 or so.

Micah: Where would you buy it? A pawn shop?

Eric: Yeah, if I found it somewhere, I’d be like, “Oh, this is pretty neat.”

Micah: Borgin and Burke?

Andrew: It’s a black market item. I don’t think I could put a price on it, because they would want a head for this item or something.

Laura: [laughs] A head.

Dave: I think I would pay for… even though I’m on Team Not Cool, I think I’d pay a lot for it, because I feel like I’d want to just have it. You just said it’s priceless. The fact that it’s one of a kind makes me want it more; it’s that whole trick of the mind.

Eric: Exactly, exactly. Okay, well, that’s the first gadget done.

Andrew: I think we just deflated Eric because we all said his first one was Not Cool. [laughs]

Eric: I’ll try and pick cooler gadgets, you guys.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Damn. I have to quick rethink everything. Here’s a cool one. So we learned about this in Book 1: It’s Wizard’s Chess!

Dave: Yes.

Eric: This qualifies as a gadget or gizmo that’s magically enhanced, because although we have chess as Muggles, these chess figures are imbued with nothing short of life and sentience, and there’s a lot of weird stuff going on. But basically, you have these chess sets, and they will criticize you if you suck at chess, but they actually move and destroy each other, and at the end of the game, we assume there’s a repair process. But yeah, it’s like a lifelike version of chess. Chess is supposed to simulate kings, battle on the battlefield in medieval times between kings and queens, kings and other kings… and so here it is, but it’s alive.

Dave: I love it. I love it exactly for what you just said. I like the idea that… I don’t know if they really say this in the books, but that maybe some of them are actually giving bad advice because they have their own motives. Like, “I’m a knight; I can do this.”

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: I just love the idea that you would have to not only be playing your opponent, but you’d have to be playing your pieces to make sure they’re not giving you terrible advice because of their own self-interest in killing other knights or whatever.

Eric: Oh my God, I never thought of a bloodthirsty knight from a Wizard’s Chess set. That would be amazing.

[Laura laughs]

Dave: I would buy that one immediately.

Eric: Well, because Ron’s set does heckle him. Or is it Harry’s? Harry gets heckled by Ron’s set, I think. Something like that.

Dave: Yes.

Eric: Because Ron is actually a chess pro, as we learn. His efforts down in beneath the school save them all at the end of Book 1, and then it never comes back again. But yeah, Wizard’s Chess is Cool. I think how it works has something to do with transfiguration, right? I mean, it seems to be McGonagall’s branch of magic that really brings the chess pieces to life, and the large chess set was her version, or her entry, into the protecting of the Stone.

Andrew: I think this is a very cool one as well. This is one, actually, I could see existing in the real world one day. Pieces being able to move by themselves on a board. I don’t know about fighting each other or… maybe insulting you, because if the board can understand where each piece is on the board, I think this could exist in the real world.

Eric: I’m surprised it doesn’t.

Laura: Well, it does. I’m looking on Amazon; there is a $350 digital revolutionary chess computer set that’ll talk to you as you move pieces around.

Andrew: [gasps] Oh my gosh.

Laura: So there you go.

Eric: There have been games that try and do something similar, but as far as full-on animation, there was a Lego Chess 3D game that came out that kind of did this, and I thought it was cool.

Andrew: Also worth noting, there is a Harry Potter chess set that looks just like the Wizard’s Chess in the movies.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And I have this and it’s very good, but it does not obviously come to life.

Dave: Not yet.

Andrew: But would recommend that, yeah. Also, this is a great item to bring up because chess is super hot right now, thanks to The Queen’s Gambit on Netflix.

Eric: Oooh, yes.

Andrew: Haven’t seen it. Want to watch.

Eric: Yeah, that sounds amazing. So the other thing that I think of it as being valuable is we see these characters, for humor, are at odds with their chess sets, but I feel like I would learn a lot, because I consider myself to be pretty good at chess, but I am not strategic at all. I’m always reactionary. So if I had a chess set – and of course, your pieces want to win – I would look to be informed. I feel like I could really, really learn and understand chess if my own set were talking to me. And maybe it would be a little, I don’t know, angry at first, if I were that bad, but it’s a really good tool. It’s a good educational tool.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Dave: I think also for me as someone that likes to… I like to learn on my own. With any game, I want to be really good at it before I take on an opponent. [laughs] But I like to imagine that this would also have a play yourself thing where the other side just has a computer “playing” against you, so you can practice, then with your pieces telling you what’s a good idea. I love that whole concept.

Micah: Does a simple Reparo spell fix all the pieces that have been shattered? Because I don’t know if I want to be shelling out money every time I play a game.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: Ron has, what, Bill’s old set or something? So they probably Reparo themselves. I don’t even think you need to be good at Reparo. I think that they are bewitched in such a way that when the game is over, they just reset. That’s my imagination. But these sets… we’re going to get into how much we’d pay for them, but a lot of them tend to be passed down, we see. Ron, for instance… he inherited his; it was one of his brother’s old sets. So when you get a new one, you pass it down; that kind of thing. So there’s a lot of replay value in them, I guess, is what I’m saying. Anyway, do we all think it’s Cool? Do we have our first unanimous “This is Cool” gadget?

Dave: Oh, yeah. Super cool.

Andrew and Laura: Yes.

Laura: I love chess anyway. And also, you brought up a really good point about the replay value and the passing down of sets through the family. It really seems like it allows you to build strategic thinking through being a general of sorts, and really forming a bond with these pieces, which sounds weird if you take this out of context, but…

Eric: They’re plastic, Laura.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Or stone. Mostly stone.

Laura: But no, no, what I mean is that over time… imagine getting a chess set as a child and growing up with that. I think that this is one of the areas actually where Ron’s character development suffers because we see early on in the series that he’s a pretty good strategic thinker, and then we don’t really see it again, not really. So I’m Team Cool for that reason.

Eric: What would we pay for a set of our own?

Dave: $350 on Amazon.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I was going to say the cheap, which is $36 on Amazon, but yeah, I think $350 for that higher end one.

Eric: Okay.

Laura: Here’s what I’m going to say, though: In the wizarding world, this type of chess set is a normal chess set, so presumably, you can get reasonably priced versions of them.

Dave: Yeah, that was my assumption too. It seems like it’s just a regular game.

Laura: So maybe 50 bucks to get a little bit of a nicer set, but not break the bank.

Eric: They’re so ubiquitous. They’re everywhere. Which leads you to believe, what do these chess pieces do when your player isn’t around? When they’re not playing? Are they allowed to just wander around?

Dave: They talk to Krum and his remaining limbs.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Is it like a Toy Story or Indian in the Cupboard situation?

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: Probably, yes. Lock ’em up. Don’t trust ’em.

Micah: They just smack talk each other the whole time.

Eric: [laughs] Like the portraits.

Micah: Exactly, yeah.

Eric: Okay. Well, let’s move on to Book 2: the flying Ford Anglia. This is an interesting one for talking about is it alive or not, but it’s a car that has had the ability to fly given to it by Arthur Weasley. And also, it can turn invisible, and in some instances, it seems to respond to Harry and Ron’s improper driving of it. And by Book 5, it becomes totally wild and it lives in the forest and goes about of its own volition.

Micah: And weren’t we supposed to see it again and we never did?

Eric: I think that’s right.

Micah: Was that another false J.K. Rowling promise?

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: I think I remember this.

Andrew: “Book 7 will end with Harry flying in the car”? Is that what she said?

Dave: It comes out to fight the giants.

Micah: Yeah, the last word was actually supposed to be “car,” not “scar,” but she bailed on both of those.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I really want to know what Arthur… I love the idea that Arthur Weasley, who loves tinkering with Muggle items, went so far as to do everything that we see that this car does, but asks, “What spell would make this car drive itself?” It’s not enough that it flies and goes invisible.

Andrew: Right, it does have a mind of its own.

Dave: I like that about it. I don’t know if it’s meant to be a commentary on artificial intelligence or anything, but I do like this idea that it’s just this whole… it’s beyond Arthur’s control at this point, and Harry and Ron’s, and I just like that it’s this wildcard of a gadget, I guess you could say.

Andrew: What’s also interesting about it is that there’s always been this dream of flying cars in the real world, and maybe J.K. Rowling was commenting on that possibility in the future. I think even 30 years ago there was talk of, “Oh, there’s going to be flying cars by the year 2020,” which, of course, we are still extremely far away from. This is another one that I can see existing in the Muggle world one day. Hopefully a little more reliable, though.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Eric, I think Dr. Brown used a Time-Turner and consulted with Arthur.

Eric: I think he did. I think he did.

Andrew: That’s a Back to the Future reference.

Micah: It is.

Dave: Oh, I’m on it.

Andrew: Just for anybody who doesn’t know.

Eric: 1989’s Back to the Future – Part 2 showed flying cars by the year 2015.

Andrew: Oh, well, we are very behind schedule.

Dave: I mean, the Cubs won the World Series. They got, like, two things right at least.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: But actually, Dave, what you were saying about… I think, too, that people personify their car, right? People give their cars names and treat it like it has a personality, so I think it’s a natural extension to then have J.K. Rowling incorporate a car that is actually partially alive.

Laura: Yeah, I love that. Speaking to the car’s personality, we have to remember it went wild in the forest, but it saw that Harry and Ron were in trouble, and it was like, “Okay, I’m coming,” and then it booted them out.

[Dave and Laura laugh]

Laura: Or is that a movie-ism that it booted them out? I don’t recall. But yeah, I mean, it seems to have some moral compass as well, which is very cool.

Andrew: However, I would not be on Team Cool for this car, because it’s a beat-up old car. It’s just not modern. Yes, it’s cool that it flies…

Micah: It’s so Weasley, though.

Andrew: … but it’s not a car I would want to be seen in driving down Hollywood Boulevard.

Laura: Oh my God. It’s just because you hate the Weasleys.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, that too.

Micah: The car itself is so Weasley, though. It’s beat up. It’s old.

Andrew: Actually, I think we have call this car Cool because it’s in our album art.

Eric: Oh, we’re obligated.

Micah: Who made that mistake?

Andrew: Best car ever.

Micah: Photoshop.

Andrew: Love it.

Laura: I was going to call it Cool anyway.

Andrew: Okay, phew.

[Laura laughs]

Dave: I’m fully Team Cool. My only thing is that I wish it had appeared more. I mean, you guys alluded to it, but I wish it had just… every time they’re in the forest, it’s just like, “Hey, what’s up?” and then drives away. It doesn’t have to be a plot. It could just drive by and that’s it, just like, whatever.

Laura: I mean, where was it when Harry and Hermione went into the forest with Umbridge and Hermione was accidentally prejudiced towards the centaurs? Would’ve come in real clutch in that moment, so that Hermione wouldn’t put her foot in her mouth.

Dave: I specifically remember reading that and thinking, “Where’s that car?”

Laura: [laughs] “Where is it?”

Andrew: “Come on out.”

Eric: It could have just run over Umbridge and then they’d all be safe. What would we pay for this car? I mean, Andrew mentioned it is an older model. It’s kind of rusted.

Micah: Well, where did Arthur get it first off?

Andrew: A junkyard.

Micah: Did he steal it from work?

Andrew: That’s a good question. Yeah, maybe it was at work. Maybe it’s one of those things where nobody claimed it, so Arthur was like, “I’ll take it.” Or maybe he just found it and fixed it up like any good American does. They love to fix up cars.

Micah: It’s such it’s such an Arthur thing, though, right? He’s like the dad working on the car in the garage. It’s a Muggle thing to do, so it’s right up his alley.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: And Molly would just be like, “Oh, that Arthur, he’s spending so much time in the garage. He’s such a dad.”

Andrew: “He loves his car more than me.”

Dave: I remember that line.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I feel like Arthur would be delighted if he knew a Muggle wanted to buy this car off of him, and he would accept whatever amount of money we wanted to give him, Muggle money…

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: Oh yeah, totally.

Laura: And then he’d take it to Molly and be like, “Look what I did,” and she’s like, “Hey, dumbass, we can’t spend this.”

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: “They gave me a William Henry Harrison dollar coin for this.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: “Hubby, you’re such a dumbass.”

Eric: Oh my God.

Andrew: Arthur could not give this car to a Muggle, though. They could not be trusted with a flying car. It would end in disaster.

Eric: It would break the Statute of Secrecy.

Andrew: Well, that, and it would just end in disaster. They would drive it into the ground or people or something.

Laura: I mean, there’s a reason why we don’t actually have flying cars, and it’s because people are bad enough at driving on the ground.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Okay, moving on to Book 3, we have a couple of gadgets. The first is the Monster Book of Monsters. I call this a gadget because it’s clearly been bewitched; it is otherwise just a book. It’s like… when you were kids, did you have any of those books that play sound where you push a button and it’s a companion to the book? It’s like that. This is what I think of when I…

Micah: But it tries to eat you.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But it tries to eat you! Plot twist: It’s actually a monster. And I love the… not the alliteration. What is it? But that it’s a book about monsters and it’s shaped like and is a monster. I love that. I love that creativity that comes into thinking of it.

Andrew: Yes. However, this is an extremely dangerous product. And while I appreciate the idea, I cannot say that this is Cool. It’s just dangerous. Why would you want to read from this book? It could bite your hand off at any moment. [laughs]

Dave: Well, to me it’s cool in concept, but I don’t think I’m alone when I – maybe I am alone – I would get so annoyed with Hagrid whenever I would reread that part. He’s like, “Oh, you just tickle the spine.” Like, Hagrid. You could have told so many people this, days, weeks ago. You could have told the the bookshop owner.

Eric: Put it in the book list.

Dave: Yeah, it could have been right there, but whatever.

Micah: I’m so glad you said that, Dave, because that’s exactly the point I was going to make. It’s just another example of how Hagrid is not a good teacher. He’s assigning books that can potentially do serious damage to his students without any thought whatsoever.

Eric: And who are the publishers that refuse to put a disclaimer on the front of the book? A lot of things… a simple sticker or something saying you’ve got to stroke it. At least inform the bookseller who’s got several bandages on each of his hands. He takes one look at Harry; he’s like, “Hogwarts? Ugh,” and goes to put special gloves on to get the Monster Book of Monsters.

Andrew: I enjoy seeing it at the Wizarding World theme park where they have it in a cage, where it belongs, because it’s deadly.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But am I going to hold one of these things?

Micah: I think I have one here somewhere.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I guess there’s better ways of… better books that are going to teach you without the risk of injury. I don’t think it’ll bite your hand off, but it will certainly hurt.

Dave: Do we know how long between spine ticklings it lasts?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s a good question.

Dave: How often are you tickling the spines?

Andrew: If I were reading it, I would just be tickling it nonstop.

Dave: [laughs] That’s what I do with all my books anyway.

Eric: In my mind it’s soft like rabbit fur, and so you’d want to stroke the spine.

Andrew: Yes.

Laura: [laughs] What?

Eric: Yeah, it’s like really soft fur.

Andrew: Do you stroke rabbits, Eric?

Eric: We all have pets here. You ever pet a dog and it’s a nice experience? Maybe it’s a little warm under the fur, so, you know, probably a pleasant experience.

Andrew: A little warm.

Dave: That’s actually how I got my dog to calm down, by just tickling her spine and she fell right asleep.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Dogs do love scratches.

Eric: Anyway. But yeah, so it’s probably pretty dangerous. Also, “monster” is an offensive term, and I do not appreciate that. I bet all of the creatures discussed in the book would not like being called a monster.

Andrew: Oh, well, I mean, look at it, though. What else are you going to call it? It’s a monster. It’s horrific. I’m sorry, Monster Book of Monsters, but you’re a beast.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: So I’m willing to join Team Not Cool because I think it should come with a disclaimer. Is anybody on Team Cool?

Micah: Oh, I think it’s cool. I just think it’s dangerous.

Andrew: I’m on Team Cool from a distance.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: I also am at a distance wearing sunglasses looking at it, but not near it.

Laura: I’m going to be on Team Cool.

Eric: Oh, wow. So I actually thought I was joining the crowd in going “Not Cool,” but I’m the only one.

Andrew: No, I’ll join Not Cool.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Laura: As the point was already made, it’s cool from a distance. It’s cool because it’s dangerous, and lots of dangerous things are cool.

Eric: I think it’s probably a couple of Galleons in the book. I haven’t looked it up. But what would we pay? $20? Maybe $30?

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Dave: I’d be interested in what a hand-me-down one would be like. Has it been tickled enough that it’s a little more tired?

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Is this the case where you’d go to the used book part of your school store or whatever?

Andrew: Does it come with a little info sheet to share just how dangerous it’s been over the years? Because I imagine that some of these books have worse temperaments than others.

Dave: People that have checked it out and lost hands have written it in.

Eric: Moving on to possibly the most useless gadget of all time, the pocket Sneakoscope. So Harry was given one – a small one, actually – by Ron while he was in Egypt. And okay, it goes off and zooms around when there’s a problem, when somebody near you is being untruthful, but Harry is in one of the biggest boarding schools in England, and it really doesn’t seem to have a built-in capacity to tell you what is amiss. It’s kind of like the Remembrall, right? The Remembrall – we didn’t mention for Book 1 – shows up, lets you know you’ve forgotten something, but there’s no means by which it tells you what you’ve forgotten. The Sneakoscope is like that. It doesn’t really seem to indicate anything useful. It’s a useless object, I feel.

Dave: I’m with you. It feels like it’s something… it’s almost like an identifier. That’s how you know if someone’s paranoid, if they own them. That seems to be more…

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: Oh, it informs the character of the people who own it more than it does act as a useful item? I feel like there’s things in the real world that do that. I can’t think of one. Oh, maybe it’s like, remember Bluetooth headsets when it was just the one ear and everybody was like, “Oh, if you have that you’re a prick”? [laughs]

Dave: Right.

Andrew: People looked funny wearing those.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s like that, where it’s like, “Oh, you have a Sneakoscope? Oh, you’re paranoid. Okay, great.”

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah, I agree.

Eric: But honestly, the magic behind this is pretty interesting, right? Because it seems to be a device that is clued into the id, or the inner thoughts and inner motivations of people around you.

Andrew and Dave: Yeah.

Dave: I do like the sort of… what’s the word? It’s not… I can’t… there’s a very obvious word I’m not thinking of. But it doesn’t necessarily define the evil around you; it just… I like that sort of magic where it’s not just straight on the nose; it’s just telling you something is amiss. That’s fun for reading a book. It’s not fun in real life, I don’t think.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Dave: But it’s a nice mystery in a Harry Potter book.

Eric: Actually, Hermione thinks it’s cool enough to give Harry another one for his 17th birthday.

Dave: Very cool.

Eric: I mean, that’s in Deathly Hallows. She’s giving it as gifts as late as Deathly Hallows, so I guess he can use it while he’s on the road, figure out if anybody’s…

Dave: It reminds me of when my oldest sister turned 18, the Christmas before she went to college, my parents just got her a bunch of suitcases, and I always thought that was so funny.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Suitcases. Very useful.

Andrew: “Hit the road, kid.”

Dave: Yeah, that’s what it’s like. It’s like, “Well, you’re an adult, and things are going to get real tough.” [laughs] That’s what it feels like.

Andrew: Gifts get boring when you get this old.

[Eric laughs]

Dave: Exactly.

Eric: Where are we landing? On Team Cool or Team Not Cool?

Andrew: Not Cool. I like what you said about what it says about the owner.

Dave: Yeah, Not Cool.

Laura: Not Cool. I feel like also, you should be able to trust your gut instincts. You shouldn’t need this.

Andrew: Don’t leave it up to a device.

Eric: People could be… yeah, people will rely less on their intuition, which comes from a lot of evolved factors, if they have something like a Sneakoscope to tell them.

Micah: Yeah, I’m going to go Team Not Cool. I agree. It seems like it’s something that… it also doesn’t tell you exactly what – I know this got brought up – but what’s wrong? What’s happening that you should be reacting to? Who should you not be trusting, or why should you not be trusting them? Is it serious? Is it not serious? No pun intended. And I just think that it doesn’t pass the test for me.

Eric: So we all, if we were gifted one of these, would probably regift it in a couple of years, right?

Andrew: Yes. I wouldn’t pay a Sickle.

Eric: [laughs] Not one Sickle. But here’s something I think we’d all pay a lot for, possibly. Let’s talk about it.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: A Time-Turner! You guys, this is also introduced in Book 3; of course, Hermione uses it. It allows the wearer to travel short distances in time.

Andrew: For now.

Eric: There’s a discrepancy between that and the Cursed Child as far as how back you can go. Although the one in Cursed Child is a prototype, so I don’t think it’s contradictory. I think on the show we talk about how contradictory it is. I don’t think it’s contradictory. But also, unlike the book, in the Cursed Child they appear to change the past. It turns out in the book that they don’t actually change anything; it’s just that their interpretation of events that occurred the first go around were wrong. So time in the third book is a closed loop, so if you go back in time, here’s the catch: You can’t really change anything. But if you had a different perspective on what happened, you can be proven wrong. So whether or not you can change the past is up for debate, I think.

Andrew: I’m very split on this device, because it is cool, but it’s so dangerous being able to mess with time, so I almost don’t want to call it Cool because I don’t want to encourage this type of behavior.

Dave: Any listeners with a time travel device.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yes. We’re very influential here; we must be cautious.

Dave: I like it for the reasons you already laid out, which is, to me, it’s the perfect thing I can point to what I like so much about the books and did not like about Cursed Child, which is that it’s much more of a much smaller, smarter plot device that makes for such a great book, whereas in the play, it’s just like, “We’re traveling 20 years and anything could happen,” and now it’s like all the time travel rules are… I don’t know, I just really like the measured, realistic version of if time travel were real, that it can only be a few hours that you would travel back. And that just makes a lot more sense to me and is a lot more fun.

Laura: I agree.

Eric: I’m trying to think what I would use it to do. If you go back in time, you can’t become yourself again, so you’d have to get your old self out of the way if you wanted to influence events directly in your life. And if you wanted to influence something else, what would you go and do? How would you get the motivation for that and be like, “I need to go back in time and do this”? So maybe… oh, buying a winning lottery ticket would probably be the one thing I could think of. Otherwise, it’s just like what Hermione uses it for. Attend more school classes. Get more done in a day.

Micah: If you get your old self out of the way, though, you’re assuming you’re the same age, or that you look exactly the same.

Dave: I look very different than I did three hours ago.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: Showered, for one.

Laura: I think I’d use it… I always thought about Hermione in this book being so exhausted and I was like, why? You can go back in time and take a nap. That’s what I would use it for. I love naps.

Eric: [laughs] Just extra naps.

Dave: Well, I mean, sports games are an obvious… I don’t know if it’s ever been at all confirmed, but the idea that Fred and George somehow got a Time-Turner seems to not be implied but a possibility with them knowing the of events of the Quidditch World Cup. That would be a very good use of it. I mean, it’s illegal.

Eric: Sports betting, yeah. Gambling, self-enrichment… I agree. I think that that’s where this device skews on the moral ground.

Micah: Yeah, but we’re all assuming things are going to be done for good, whereas there are plenty of people who would go back in time and use it for nefarious purposes.

Andrew: True.

Eric: So in solidarity do we all say it’s Not Cool because it’s too dangerous?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I think it’s Cool.

Andrew: I’ll say it.

Laura: Yeah, I think it’s Cool.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I wouldn’t buy it.

Eric: We’re like, “It’s still pretty cool.”

Andrew: You guys are sick.

Eric: I mean, magic wise, it bends time and space, and that’s cool. Muggles are still trying to do that.

Andrew: It’s cool in theory. It’s cool to read about in a fictional world.

Dave: I mean, in terms of the… this is so silly, but the way they designed it in the movies and how I imagine in the book, it looks really cool. I love just it being this necklace. I love that. Like the DeLorean; it’s a cool vessel.

Andrew: Yeah, I think it’s a very popular merchandise item for that reason.

Eric: If we could get one, what would we pay to get one?

Andrew: It should be very expensive, given its benefits.

Laura: Yeah, I’m not going to feel good about using this if it’s really cheap.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, it needs to be a high quality Time-Turner.

Eric: You travel a couple hours back in time but when you get to the present, you have different parents or something. Like, “What did I do? I Marty McFly’d it.”

Andrew: You should also have to take some sort of test or they have to give you a background check or something to make sure you might not use it for those nefarious purposes that Micah mentioned.

Laura: I mean, I don’t know. They gave it to a 13-year-old, so…

Dave: But she had to have a lot of people sign off on it!

[Dave and Laura laugh]

Eric: Yeah, McGonagall was putting her career on the line for that. So here’s a device from Book 4 that is… I’m actually surprised how similar it is to the Time-Turner. It’s the Omnioculars. You’re not exactly going back in time, but you can replay time. We see this at the Quidditch World Cup; it’s mostly used at the sporting event. You can do all sorts of… you basically see something in real time, you can slow it down, you can watch in slow motion… so I don’t know how that works because it’s not specifically video. It seems to be some kind of reality-bending viewpoint thing. But it’s cool.

Micah: This is trash.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: I mean, we have replay, we have cell phones, we have cameras…

Dave: DVR. TiVo.

Micah: What does this do for you?

Eric: It also goes backwards.

Andrew: I think it’s super cool for that reason.

Dave: This would have been written, what, in 2000? So I think when it came out, we didn’t really have that.

Andrew: Good point.

Dave: I remember it being a lot cooler, and then I get DVR and I’m like, “Okay, well…”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Video killed the radio… instant replay in regular life has killed the Omniocular craze.

Dave: Right, that’s how the song goes.

Andrew: Now you film something on Instagram, and then it immediately replays it over and over and over and over until you finally post it, which is just like Omnioculars.

Eric: I will say, for people who attend live sporting events, you don’t necessarily get the live replays. As somebody who doesn’t know anything about football, I need the TV version of football, where they draw the lines and show me where the ball has to go and all that stuff. I know I just revealed huge ignorance here, but I rely on that kind of a thing. And so Omnioculars would be totally the thing that I’d pay a couple Galleons for at the match to figure out… and it also replays. When there’s a tough play, when there’s something close, the ability to really look and see it for yourself from wherever you’re sitting is a really cool feature that I don’t think has been overridden right now.

Dave: You’d have people in the crowd throwing their Omnioculars like, “Look at this! I got this replay, ref! I got the angle!”

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: “It’s a touchdown.”

Eric: Yeah, good point, actually.

Dave: You kind of turned… I think it’s cool now.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m on Team Cool.

Laura: I think it’s cool for the functionality. I also think it’s an accessibility thing, too; even if we were to place this in modern times, people in the wizarding world aren’t going to have smartphones. They’re not going to work.

Andrew: Yeah. Micah, you’re a sports guy. You have to like this.

Micah: Eh, I know. I also… in the books it was always like a hit on the Weasleys; like they’re so high up and Harry has to buy these binoculars essentially to be able to see what’s going on even though it’s a event that occurs mostly or all in the air.

Dave: Right. That’s a really good point. I never thought about the fact that they’re in the nosebleeds should be a good thing.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, no, it’s actually probably one of the best seats to have. It’s not terrible. Not Cool.

Eric: Okay, Team Decent. We’re inventing a new team for Micah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: Team Decent?

Eric: Team Decent.

Andrew: “It’s fine.”

Micah: Team “Aight.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: In terms of how much to pay, I’d say $30-50.

Eric: That sounds about right.

Andrew: Sounds like a common item.

Dave: Does he pay 10 Galleons? Or is it 30?

Eric: He pays 10 Galleons. Okay, here is another interesting gadget that I’m calling a gadget: It’s the Quick Quotes Quill that Rita Skeeter uses to transcribe instantaneously Harry’s side of the interview that she is giving him. We see it mostly in that one-on-one interview between Rita Skeeter and Harry Potter. Kind of interesting. I think something that transcribes a meeting would be all the rage on college campuses. If you’re taking lecture-style notes, it would be amazing. The one thing that’s kind of a knock against it, but maybe not, is it has a flourish to it. It kind of embellishes.

Dave: I love it.

Andrew: That’s a huge knock. That’s fake news.

Dave: It is, literally. That’s why I love it. It’s so great to read in the book.

Andrew: That’s why you love it?

Dave: [laughs] Well, yeah, that’s a terrible thing. Don’t get that on record.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: No, I just mean I love it as a story-telling device where it’s like, this is how tabloids work. They’re showing you in real time where… Harry is getting a glimpse of the version she’s writing as he speaks. I think it’s one of my favorite chapters in the whole series, is when they’re in a closet, a broom closet, and this thing is…

Andrew: It is a genius scene.

Eric: “My eyes aren’t glistening with the ghosts of my past!”

[Dave and Eric laugh]

Laura: I always interpreted this as her Quick Quotes Quill sort of mimicking her personality, so maybe not all of these would behave in this way. But various devices we see throughout the wizarding world have personalities of their own, that mimic the people they belong to. We see this with wands, for example. I can see a Quick Quotes Quill really melding its personality to its owner, so maybe a more honest journalist’s quill wouldn’t do this.

Dave: I like that. And that’s almost like autocorrect or whatever on your keyboard on your iPhone starts to learn how you type things, so it’s sort of the same. It’s personalized to you.

Laura: Yeah. Because of that, though, I can’t figure out why when I type a certain word, my iPhone always autocorrects to “duck.”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: I know; it’s so frustrating. Apple doesn’t believe in that other word, I guess.

Dave: The best for me is “ducking.” I like that they’re like, “‘Ducking’ is a word, though.”

Eric: [laughs] So yeah, like I said, it also has just those implications in education. I’m going to say it’s Cool, because I was a note taker that could do with better notes.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: When you’re writing notes, you’re also doing it in kind of a shorthand, and it’s 50/50 – or in my case, 30/70 – whether or not I’d be able to actually interpret what my shorthand was because I was trying to keep up with the speed of dialogue of conversation, so that’s kind of an issue.

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, definitely from a note-taking perspective so long as it’s accurate, but if it’s this Rita version where it’s not transcribing the truth, then it’s a problem.

Micah: You’d have a lot of trouble, Andrew, on your exams. I mean, imagine the things it would write down.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: I know.

Dave: Yeah, I say Cool with a huge caveat in the right hands. Not cool in Alex Jones’s hands, but maybe other people.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: I’m going to say Cool just because I never write by hand anymore, so when I do find myself in a situation where I have to write by hand, my hand cramps up really bad.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Dave: Yes, me too. I’m glad I’m not alone.

Andrew: [emotionally] “Where’s my keyboard? I can’t take this anymore!”

Eric: And what would we pay for it?

Micah: 20 bucks.

Andrew: It’s a glorified pen, so $50.

Eric: Let’s do the Foe-Glass from Book 4. Here’s an interesting one. It’s a mirror, like a magic mirror; I wonder if that’s the reference. It shows you who your enemies are, but apparently they’re kind of foggy, indistinguishable figures in the mirror until they are literally at your door. So it tells you who your enemies are, but in the case of Moody… here’s a quote from Goblet of Fire:

“Moody was thrown backward onto the office floor. Harry, still staring at the place where Moody’s face had been, saw Albus Dumbledore, Professor Snape, and Professor McGonagall looking back at him out of the Foe-Glass. He looked around and saw the three of them standing in the doorway.”

So it’s not really a useful tool, because by the time you see the whites of the eyes of your enemies…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Yeah, what exactly was going on here with the Foe-Glass?

Dave: I mean, it’s not unlike the Sneakoscope. It’s like, “Here comes your foes and… but… here they come!”

Micah: I don’t know; I could see this being useful if this was something Moody had in his office at the Ministry when everything was at the height of Voldemort’s first run. You don’t know who’s loyal, who’s using Polyjuice, who’s under an Imperius Curse… all sorts of things, so maybe it would be helpful in terms of showing who is truthful.

Dave: Right. It makes sense for impostor Barty Crouch, Jr., too, because… maybe it doesn’t work this way, but if his true foe is someone who’s against him in that moment, then he knows he’s in trouble. But if Dumbledore was coming to his office, and there’s no shadow or whatever, outline, that means Dumbledore doesn’t realize he’s bad yet, I guess.

Eric: Oh, yeah, so it’s more for what it doesn’t show.

Micah: He also has to play the part, too, of Barty Crouch, Jr., so having something like that in his office would make sense for Moody. The big thing for me from this scene always – and I know we’ve talked a lot about it over the years on the show – is that this is one of those first moments where you could go back to and say that Snape is in fact good, because he shows up as an enemy of Barty Crouch, Jr.

Eric: Good point. But I think it could also be like the Quirrell thing where he rationalizes it as, “I was against Quirrell because I thought he was doing it for selfish purposes. I wasn’t trying to impede Voldemort’s rise.” Cool or Not Cool, guys?

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, just because of how it could be helpful.

Dave: Yeah, Cool for me, but I would never really buy it. I hope I don’t need to.

Micah: Agreed.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, I look into it and I see nothing, because I have no enemies.

Dave: [laughs] That’s right.

Laura: I’m going to say Not Cool, because I feel like it would make me extremely paranoid. It reminds me of… you know how you can have cameras to monitor your pet when you’re not at home? I had one of those for a while and I found that I was obsessively checking it because it was there, and I had the option to be like, “Oh, let me make sure the dog’s not dead or some kind of crazy thing.”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: And it just made me more paranoid just to have it, so I think that it would not be good for me.

Eric: I’m going to join Laura on Team Not Cool. I think by the time you can make out who it is that’s coming for you, it’s too late.

Andrew: Any magical glass object in the Harry Potter series is probably not very good for you.

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: The Mirror of Erised drives you crazy…

Dave: The personal gift from Sirius Black that you destroy immediately.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Right, yeah. Theses are all trouble.

Eric: That really have a chance at being cool.

Micah: I think it’s cool.

Andrew: Yes!

Micah: But I agree with you. I don’t think I would purchase it.

Eric: Here’s the next one that I don’t think any of us can put a price on: the Pensieve.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s just so dangerous again.

Eric: Wait, how is it dangerous, though?

Andrew: Well, I just think revisiting memories can be very dangerous. It’s not good from a mental health perspective.

Dave: It is sort of the BuzzFeed ’90s articles of magic.

Andrew: [laughs] Well, but I’m also thinking about… let’s say you’re still hung up on a relationship or something, and you’re just reliving those scenes over and over.

Eric: Okay, I can see that.

Andrew: “I’m sorry, you guys. I’m going through a breakup right now; that’s all I can think about.”

Laura: You don’t necessarily have to revisit your own memories, though. It can give you really interesting perspective on historical events, as we see in the book, so I think it would be very cool. I’m already Team Cool on this.

Andrew: Are you going to go dig up George Washington and pull out a memory from his head and then…?

Dave: “Were your teeth wooden or not?”

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh, sadly… they weren’t.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, no. Awful.

Laura: We’ll move on from that. I like, Andrew, how you went straight to digging up a dead body, though. I like that your brain went there.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Well, you said you want to remember history. I don’t know how you would do that.

Eric: Presumably, there would be a Smithsonian of memories from ancient wizards that were kept in vials.

Dave: Ooh.

Andrew: That would be fun.

Eric: You wouldn’t have to violate a grave.

Andrew: [laughs] Because somebody else already did for you.

Eric: This would be a library of… you could check out a vial and then pour the vial into the onsite Pensieve and then go and look at history from historical figures. The implications are amazing. I’m firmly Team Cool. And I like to believe that although you could Eternal Sunshine it and maybe have some unhealthy habits around relationships – I love that sort of implication – I’m mostly focused on how awesome it would be and how much good perspective you could get out of seeing yourself and how you behaved but from a third person perspective. I think that could only bring you good insight.

Dave: And to bring up another 2000s romantic comedy, 500 Days of Summer. The whole premise at the very end is that he was just remembering the good parts. And so you could argue there’s something healthy about going back and going, “Oh, this wasn’t as good a memory as I thought.” And I don’t remember if this is how we first are introduced to the Penvise – [laughs] Penvise. The Pensieve. Anyway, I remember that Dumbledore says something about how he’s using it to actually free himself so he doesn’t have to think about other things right now, and so he’s actually freeing up. And I’ve really always… the older I get, the more I’m like, “I would love to have a Pensieve just to not think about these things right now so I can get through the rest of my day.” That aspect of it is really cool.

Laura: That is very true.

Andrew: Dave may have swayed me.

Micah: Yeah, Eric, I liked what you said about the Smithsonian. That really is very cool. I just don’t know how hygienic it is for everybody to be dunking their face into the same pool of water.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: I’m sure there’s a workaround.

Andrew: They replace the water.

Eric: It’s sanitized after every use.

Micah: Okay.

Laura: Yeah, and there’s probably a buffer period.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s actually a tub of Purell that you stick your head into.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It would burn the eyes.

Andrew: [laughs] You’re screaming in the Purell. [screams] “Ooh, but look at this memory.” [screams]

Laura: No, I mean, just wear a mask and everything will be fine.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, but it would be… although, I guess we should say memories can be altered, so maybe it wouldn’t be the cinema verité of the wizarding world. But no big deal. I think it’s cool. Anybody say Not Cool?

Andrew: No. I still think it’s dangerous, but I still think it’s cool.

Eric: That’s cool.

Micah: Cool.

Eric: And what would we pay for it? I could see a common household Pensieve going for something like… let’s see, more than a dish disposal, more than a… [laughs] I’m trying to think of other household appliances.

Micah: Oh, I was going to go, this thing is probably worth at least a couple hundred grand.

Andrew: Whoa! Couple hundred grand? Well, nobody’s going to be able to… I was going to say a couple thousand.

Dave: I think he’s right. No, I think he’s right.

Andrew: Geez.

Laura: Yeah, this is not something that you could just have as a standard household item.

Andrew: Yeah. And like Laura said with the Time-Turner, you want a high quality Pensieve.

Eric: I think everyone should be able to utilize this sort of a thing. I think it would be less than a car. I think it would be less than 20 grand.

Dave: That would be awesome. Well, before I forget, I just remembered this. There was… it was not a Smithsonian thing, but it was a sort of museum deal where they had a bunch of directors create this experience where you were on the Mexico/US border, and they’d put you in this dark room and they put a backpack on you, and they put headphones and an Oculus type thing on you, and you’re the only person; they did it one person at a time. And there was like, 50 feet in front of you and you had to be barefoot, and you’re walking in the sand, and it was a fully-acted short film with 20 or 22 actors all doing different things at once, as they were trying to attempt to cross the border. It was really intense. And I remember thinking, “This is the Pensieve experience.” And I was trying to treat it as if… [laughs] Because I’m the Harry Potter fan that I am, I was trying to treat it as if I were Harry walking through memories, and remember how he would go sit next to different people and focus on what individual people were doing?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Dave: This was the same idea, where all these actors had different roles, and even if they weren’t speaking, they were supposed to be doing something and it went on forever. It was very emotional, too. So I don’t know. Basically what I’m saying is the experience already kind of exists, and it’s really amazing.

Eric: We have four gadgets left to talk about. Also from Book 4 – but also in Book 7 – Wormtail’s silver hand. The reason I call this a gadget is because it’s kind of like it functions as if it’s a prosthetic hand, but it’s also got very magical properties to it and presumably some sentience. So I think it’s a gadget. It’s a gadget, right?

Dave: I think so.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: It’s silver, so it’s like metal and… yeah.

Eric: It doesn’t kill werewolves, though. We thought that that was going to be a thing.

Dave: I remember that. I think that was in the What Will Happen in Book 7? book.

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: It’s very Darth Vader-y.

Laura: I’m going to say Team Not Cool, because there’s something homicidal about this and I just don’t…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: I don’t need that in my life. Like, why would I pay for something that might kill me?

Andrew: Not Cool and extremely dangerous.

Eric: Yeah, it does not… it has a different autonomy. Wormtail doesn’t have full control over it, so that is highly problematic. You never want to buy a device that does not work as designed, right? So that’s Not Cool. [laughs]

Dave: I also think maybe part of the reason… I would say Not Cool, but also because outside of the obvious event where Peter Pettigrew’s arm stops himself, he doesn’t really use it. Does he? I mean, I remember a couple instances where they… but he doesn’t seem to…

Eric: Don’t we see at first…? Doesn’t he crush something?

Dave: That’s the first thing he does, and I was like, “That’s awesome!” And then never again.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It’s really sold really well at first. He crushes something into bone, or something into dust.

Dave: Yeah. And then, again, that’s basically it for the hand outside of the one big event.

Eric: No, because the next time we see him in Book 6, he’s serving tea.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: You don’t need a silver hand to do that! If you had a silver hand, you’d be competing in strength competitions, arm wrestling… you’d be doing all sorts of stuff.

Micah: Exactly.

Eric: So Wormtail underuses the device he has.

Dave: I’m also on Team Wormtail Not Cool.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It’s basically like a monitoring device for Pettigrew, right? Once he essentially is willing to betray Voldemort – even if he doesn’t realize it – it kills him. So that’s Not Cool.

Eric: That’s honestly true. It’s presented as a reward to Wormtail for years of service, but ultimately, it is just a tracker. It’s just an ankle monitor that will kill you.

Dave: Does it become a little rat paw when he transforms back into Scabbers?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Now that would be cute.

Eric: If it didn’t, you’d just have a rat with a human…

Dave: A giant silver…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Maybe that’s why we don’t see him infiltrate anything as a rat in the later books, because when he transforms, it doesn’t. And he can’t run away.

Dave: I hope so.

Eric: Okay, this one is a short one. From Book 5, it’s mentioned when they go and sit their OWLs that a banned device that you can’t take in is an Auto-Answer Quill, and what it is described to do is that the quill automatically answers a question that is asked in its presence. This would always give you the right answer on a quiz on a written test.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: This is amazing.

Andrew: So I kind of had an item like this.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: Really?

Andrew: I took a history of rock and roll class, and I cheated by using Shazam during the listening portion of the test.

Laura: Oh my God.

[Dave laughs]

Andrew: And it always gave me the right answer. Yeah, I’m ten years removed from that test, so I’m comfortable coming clean about that now.

Dave: The statute of limitations has lifted on that test.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: They can’t prosecute you.

Andrew: Right. But that said, even though I am a cheater – and shame on me – I think this is a very bad item. Right, Laura? The teacher?

Laura: [laughs] Yeah, to be used in the context of a classroom, yes, this would be a really bad item. I would not allow it. But I think overall, it could be really useful. I mean, it’s kind of like Siri. It’s like a voice assistant. You can very easily get quick information if needed.

Dave: Okay. It’s like a Google pen.

Laura: Yeah, as long as it’s not used for cheating, I think it’s fine.

Eric: What would we pay for an Auto-Answer Quill? This is kind of like carrying a calculator into math class, right? Just as an assistant.

Dave: But does it have Block Dude on it? Or whatever the other games were.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Does it upgrade automatically? Or it just knows?

Eric: That’s the weird thing. Magically, it has to pretty much be omniscient and know everything in order to…

Dave: That’s an interesting question, though. Because for instance, if a Nimbus 2000 could upgrade to a 2001, probably not. That’s why you buy a new one. You know what I mean? It’s just a spell on a broomstick for the most… except in the movies, it’s like an entirely different broomstick, but still.

Eric: I did leave broomsticks off this overall list, but I recognize that they’re very similar. And also, they have multiple spells and charms and enchantments on them that keep… the Quidditch Through the Ages book actually details all the various types of things you need to worry about when doing a broomstick, so brooms are Cool.

Micah: Well, and here’s the other thing: Is it just short answer? Or is it longer form answer? Because I feel like this would be great for Ron doing homework.

Dave: Flashcards.

Laura: I have to think, though, if he was using that on homework assignments, his teachers would totally know.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: That’s fair.

Laura: You just have a… as a former teacher, if I got something turned in that was plagiarized, it’s like an alarm bell just goes off in your head, and you know.

Andrew: Right, you’ve got to be smart about it. You’ve got to incorrectly answer some of the questions so they don’t catch on.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: Or Ron would have had to do it from day one, so that every teacher thought his long answer essays just had that voice of pure truth.

Laura: And they’re like, “Why…? In class, he just seems so different from his homework assignments.”

Eric: [laughs] Well, let’s move on to Decoy Detonators. This is the first gadget we’re talking about to come from Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes joke shop. And it is a weird-looking black hooter type object that when dropped, will scurry off and make a loud noise just out of sight. Also, even when not in use, a Decoy Detonator will attempt to do this, though without setting off a noise. I don’t know what that’s about. It’s just… these things hop around and create distractions and it’s good for getting out of class.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: Oh, that is the original purpose. I forgot the original purpose. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, or making your life more interesting. Obviously, the trio use these to great effect in Deathly Hallows, and especially the movie really captures the weird-looking black hooter-type object. I was like, “What is this?” It’s a little horn with those legs that you wind up. It’s almost like a windup toy.

Andrew: Yeah. You see these a lot in video games, like the new Spider-Man game.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, because sometimes you’ve got to sneak around.

Laura: Yeah, Team Cool because I’m not a very subtle person and I’m also kind of clumsy, so I feel like if I were in a situation where I needed to be stealthy, I would need to depend on something being just really loud and attention-grabbing so that I could get by.

Micah: Doesn’t Harry set this off in the Ministry, too, and it’s also some sort of fog that gets created?

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, I think you’re right.

Micah: That’s more effective to me than just making a lot of obnoxious noise. But yeah, I think they’re Cool, but I don’t really see the use for them in this day and age. I don’t know what they’re ultimately going to do for you.

Dave: I think it would just make my dog crazy.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: So I’m already… as with any decision in my life, now I go, “Well, I can’t have that; it’s going to scare my dog. I can’t have this magical object.”

[Eric laughs]

Dave: I feel like also, the Hand of Glory is more effective too. That feels like a the same thing but way – I don’t know – cooler.

Eric: Yeah, that’s an interesting point.

Andrew: I’m going to say Cool, because I could see this being helpful.

Eric: Okay. I don’t know where I’d use it, but I’m not willing to say it’s Not Cool, so I’m going to go Team Cool.

Dave: I’m going to say Not Cool for my dog, who just made a weird noise as some kind of confirmation.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: And that leads us to the last gadget that we’ll be talking about. Listeners can, of course, submit more that we didn’t talk about; maybe we’ll bring a new discussion back later. But we mentioned this at the top of the show: Hermione’s beaded bag. I call it a gadget.

Micah: I want to know why she didn’t just throw Harry in there when things got a little hairy.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: I agree.

Eric: He’d still have to fit through the… well, I guess you wouldn’t, because a book won’t fit… I was thinking that if you could fit through the original, the initial drawstring…

Dave: Opening.

Eric: … because a book could fit in the bag but anything bigger couldn’t.

Andrew: Harry has broad shoulders; he couldn’t fit in there.

[Dave and Micah laugh]

Micah: I agree with Laura, though; it speaks to Hermione’s preparedness as they get ready to go out in Deathly Hallows, and it’s just really amazing, all the things that she is able to put inside of that bag. And I think this is one of the top items, Eric, that you put together for today. I think it’s worth a ton of money. It’s very cool.

Andrew: And just think how much money it would save you when you’re flying. You don’t have to bring multiple bags; you just bring one carry-on.

Dave: Oh, my sister, that could have been her 18th birthday present.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: A single bag. Yeah, I don’t pay baggage fees because I fly Southwest, so I don’t know what you guys are talking about.

[Dave laughs]

Eric: But yeah, I think that you could probably make them on the cheap, too, right? Because presumably, it’s just an Extension Charm, which Hermione… I think they learn those in… at some point, it’s got to be easy magic. If you can master an Extension Charm, you get a regular old carpet bag or handbag of any size, put an Extension Charm on it, and boom, you’ve got a ton of storage.

Dave: I always like to think about… I think it’s in the books or it’s somewhere that in order to create that extra space, you have to… it’s a physics law in the magical world that that space has to come from somewhere. So I just like the idea that there’s storage containers somewhere that actually are holding all this stuff, or… I don’t know. That always cracked me up that there is a space somewhere, even if it’s literally in outer space, where all this stuff is actually being kept.

Eric: Yeah, that’s really interesting.

Micah: It’s almost a pre… well, I guess precursor is not the right word because it happens technically from a timing standpoint after Fantastic Beasts, but it is kind of like Newt’s suitcase.

Dave: Oh, yeah.

Eric: I mean, we see Extension Charms in anything from Newt’s suitcase to even the car that they get from the Ministry to take them all to King’s Cross that one day, where it basically looks like a car on the outside, but when you go in, it’s got bench seating.

Micah: The Knight Bus has a bit of that going on too.

Eric: Yeah, oh, the Knight Bus? Absolutely, as well as an outward flexibility agent where they can get squished and not feel it. Yeah, so were we all Team Cool on the beaded bag?

Dave: Very cool.

Laura: Yeah, this is definitely Team Cool. I also think about going to the movies. This would be so convenient. I don’t know if I’m the only one who does this here, but I don’t buy concessions at the movies.

Dave: Oh, I do it too.

Laura: Yeah, and so having a way to very stealthily get into the theater without bringing a backpack…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: … being like, “No, I just carry this backpack with me everywhere full of snacks.” That would be cool.

Andrew: Yeah, I’m Team Cool as well. For sure.

Eric: But what would we pay to have one?

Andrew: I would pay a lot because it would just be so helpful.

Dave: Yeah, in almost any situation, really.

Andrew: I’d pay over a hundred.

Eric: Oh, God, if you’re hiking… think about if you’re hiking, you can have your tent, all your gear and supplies, but it wouldn’t weigh as much as all those items because it would just weigh whatever the bag weighs on the outside.

Andrew: Perfect.

Micah: I’d say a couple hundred.

Eric: $500, maybe?

Dave: $600? $700? I don’t have the money really at all.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: But I would pay ten grand. I think it’s worth that amount, if I had it.

Andrew: Just think of how much it would save you in baggage fees; it would pay for itself! Unless you’re flying Southwest, Eric.

Eric: So I wonder if this is the most valuable item that we… oh, but the Pensieve was 20 grand, though, right? Or more.

Andrew: Somebody said hundreds of thousands.

Eric: Hundreds of thousands of… okay, so behind the Pensieve. It’s interesting to be like, “The beaded bag is really up there.”

Andrew: But most useful, I think you could call this.

Eric: Yeah, very practical. There’s something very practical about it. Well, that, I think, concludes our discussion on gadgets. Thanks, everyone.

Andrew: Great. Yeah, that was fun.


Quizzitch


Andrew: Okay, so it is time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: What is the first thing Harry ever buys in Diagon Alley? This was in regards to we were talking about Diagon Alley and buying things, particularly fan-made things, on last week’s episode. The correct answer is his robes, his Hogwarts robes. Right after leaving Gringotts, Hagrid sends Harry to buy his robes. So the correct answers were submitted by Bort Voldemort; Billy Reardon; Jason King; and Chelsea Bromley. Congrats, everyone.

Laura: No Count Ravioli? Where’s…?

Eric: No Count Ravioli this time.

Laura: Okay. All right.

Dave: I just told her before this that I was doing the MuggleCast podcast, so that’s hilarious.

Eric: Oh, really?

Dave: Yeah, she’s married to another friend of mine. He runs the Steak-umms TikTok account, actually.

Eric: Oh, the Steak-umms TikTok?

Andrew: Oh. My. Gosh.

Laura: Wow.

Eric: That’s the best account of all time.

Dave: Yeah, it really is.

Laura: What a small world.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: Wow. Yeah, Count Ravioli did not participate. Where in the world is Count Ravioli? We miss you; come back to us. Anyway, next week’s question: After the first task, what does George hear when Harry opens the Golden Egg? This one’s a fun one. Submit your answer to us over on Twitter at @MuggleCast with hashtag Quizzitch.

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s gadget discussion, you can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com, or send us a voice memo so we can hear you. Just use the Voice Memo app on your phone and then email that file to MuggleCast@gmail.com, or you can call us, 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453. Dave, thanks so much for coming on today. It was awesome having you!

Dave: Guys, thank you so much. I did my best to contribute, but also, I was in awe. It’s like you’re inside one of your favorite movies, so it’s my own Pensieve. So thank you. This has been great.

Andrew: We’re talking back!

Dave: I’d love to come back.

Andrew: We would love to have you back! Hell yeah.

Dave: Every week. I’m just kidding.

[Everyone laughs]

Dave: No, but please let me know.

Eric: Check out Dave’s TikToks. Check them out over, obviously, on TikTok. They’re also on Twitter; he threaded them all. Also, if you’re looking for an introduction into the first hundred something TikToks, check out the episode of my podcast “Thank You for Spieling,” where Dave was on. He was kind enough to join us. But we go through the narrative and the thoughts behind all of his old TikToks, so…

Dave: It was a lot of fun.

Eric: You’ve done like, 200 since then, dude. You will not stop.

[Andrew laughs]

Dave: No, I can’t stop.

Eric: We’re so outdated.

Dave: Won’t stop. The Miley Cyrus of TikToks.

[Andrew and Dave laugh]

Andrew: [sings] “He can’t stop…” Dave, what’s your username on Twitter and TikTok?

Dave: Twitter is easy; it’s just at @DaveJorgensen. And then it’s actually the same… I do have my own personal account on TikTok that I’ve barely used.

[Eric laughs]

Dave: But I had to start it because I have a book coming out next year, so I’m excited to use it as a…

Andrew: Whoa!

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Dave: Yeah, I was telling Eric, if you tickle the spine, it starts dancing like a TikTok for 15 seconds.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Oh, nice.

Dave: Or something like that, yeah. But no, the bulk of the TikToks are at @WashingtonPost, and every weekday I post two, sometimes three, so by the end of the week there’s 10-15 TikToks there that are both informative, and sometimes just very silly.

Andrew: Awesome. What a job. That is so cool.

[Andrew and Dave laugh]

Andrew: Cool. So thanks again, Dave. It was really awesome. And thanks for listening to MuggleCast all these years. I’m glad we connected.

Dave: Of course.

Andrew: And we’ll have links to Dave’s Washington Post TikTok and his personal Twitter in today’s show notes. You can also follow us; I mean, we’re not as big of a deal as Dave on social media, but we are @MuggleCast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Thanks, everybody, for listening to today’s episode. We’ll be back next week with one more episode for 2020. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: I’m Laura.

Dave: And I’m Dave!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: You are! You’re a MuggleCaster!

Micah: Well done.

Eric: One of us! One of us!

Transcript #469

 

MuggleCast 469 Transcript

 

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #469, Why J.K. Rowling Is Wrong About Trans People


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world fandom. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: So on today’s episode, we will be discussing J.K. Rowling’s tweets and her blog post about trans people from last week. We believe as a group that these comments were wrong and hurtful on multiple levels, and the purpose of this episode is to explain why we feel this way, and we’re hoping to educate you and give you perspective. And later, we will discuss how we go from here as fans and as hosts of a Harry Potter podcast, because this really did shake the fandom over the past week. And while we hope to enlighten and change minds, I also just want to add that we will probably not talk about this again, because J.K. Rowling has made it abundantly clear where she stands now, and we don’t need to keep digging into this. We are a Harry Potter podcast; we want to stick to Harry Potter. And I know a lot of listeners might be saying, “Why do you guys have to talk about it?” Because it’s important, and we really do believe that. And to help us discuss this today, we’re joined by our friend Dr. Sarah Steelman. She has a PhD; she is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in LGBTQ+ affirmative practices. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Steelman: Hello, I’m happy to be here. I wish it was better circumstances, but teenage me is thrilled nonetheless.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yes, Sarah has been a longtime listener of the show. We’ve met her many times; we’ve hung out many times. She is a wonderful person. And we’re so excited to have you here because you really know what you’re talking about. I think the rest of the panel here will be the first to admit we’re not experts; we are not perfect when discussing these types of topics, so we wanted to bring on somebody who has expertise here.

Micah: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you touched on it earlier with the education piece: This show today is not just about educating our listeners. In many ways, it’s about educating ourselves as hosts. And I think that that’s exactly why Sarah is here; she is the expert. And I know we’ve gotten a number of emails, we’ve gotten a number of tweets about not rushing to judgment about this particular situation, and I would say that’s exactly what we’re not doing, right? That’s why we have an expert on. That’s why we’ve taken a couple days to digest everything that’s been put out there. And hopefully, people take something away from the show today.

Laura: And before we dive into our main discussion, we did want to give a brief trigger warning. Today’s show will contain a lot of unaffirmative and transphobic language. Due to the nature of the discussion, these words and quotes will need to be said as they were written without correcting the language to be more affirmative. If hearing these words is too triggering for you, please protect your mental health, and it is okay to pause or stop the episode as you need. If you need support, we do have a couple of resources to point you towards. You can call the Trevor Project at 866-488-7386, and you can also call the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860.

Andrew: So we recorded Episode 468 last Saturday morning, and we go and try to have a peaceful weekend. And I’m sitting on the couch, bored out of my mind, refreshing Twitter, and here comes a tweet from J.K. Rowling. She shares an article with the headline “Opinion: Creating a more equal post-COVID-19 world for people who menstruate.” She quotes this link; she says, “‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?” She’s mad that they used “people” instead of “women.” And of course, people started freaking out because she was once again being transphobic. And of course, RIP her mentions immediately.

Eric: This isn’t just an errant like. This isn’t what publicists may refer to as a middle-aged moment. It’s not J.K. Rowling following people. People have been telling us… trans listeners have been writing in for ages saying, “These are problematic. This is what J.K. Rowling is doing. She’s friending all these people who are self-described gender critical,” etc. This was J.K. Rowling in the middle of nowhere, seemingly apropos of nothing, finding fault with a politically correct statement.

Andrew: Right, while she was back on Twitter to promote this new free children’s book, like she brought up in her blog post.

Eric: Like she said.

Andrew: So RIP her mentions. Then Rowling follows up with a Twitter thread, and she says, “If sex isn’t real, there’s no same-sex attraction. If sex isn’t real, the lived reality of women globally is erased. I know and love trans people, but erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives. It isn’t hate to speak the truth. The idea that women like me, who’ve been empathetic to trans people for decades, feeling kinship because they’re vulnerable in the same way as women – i.e., to male violence – ‘hate’ trans people because they think sex is real and has lived consequences – is a nonsense. I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans. At the same time, my life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it’s hateful to say so.” And then she goes to bed. And then Twitter continues to respond to her, and people are really upset about this. Before we get into the blog post that she wrote a few days later, Sarah, can you tell us why everything she just said on Saturday night was offensive and wrong?

Sarah: Yeah, so a few things. Let’s just discuss some of the language that she used. So first of all, “same-sex attraction.” That’s something… we now mostly say “same gender attraction,” or we just say “LGB” or “queer.” And so we’ve already started to remove that from sex, but I think her Internet is lost somewhere in the early 2000s or ’90s. But sex, as she is talking about it, is what we affirmatively refer to as what you are assigned at birth. And so you may have heard the terms “AFAB” or “AMAB.” AFAB would mean that you are assigned female at birth. AMAB means that you are assigned male at birth. And the reason why we discuss this is because, one, it feels better for trans people. It doesn’t make the distinction between being “real” or “not real” in your identity. But also, sex is not actually this binary. It’s a spectrum always, and people are intersex, and they are not assigned intersex at birth, sometimes. There are ways to know if someone is intersex, and there are actually a lot of corrective surgeries that are done almost immediately after birth for that, or there’s some chromosomal issue or something like that, that is either never discovered or discovered way later. And this is also true of people who are AFAB or AMAB, where you can have different chromosomes than what you would typically expect of a woman or a man. You can have hormonal issues that cause issues with menstruation; there are lots of cis women who do not menstruate. And so this is just a little bit about some of the words that she used that were wrong. And then for gender, that is what we know as how people identify what roles and scripts they see themselves as filling, their relationships with society, how they view themselves internally, and these can be changed in terms of labels throughout the lifespan. But it has been found over and over again, scholarly, to not be able to be changed, which is why conversion therapy is unethical to do in almost any therapeutic licensure. It is harmful and it doesn’t work. And there are lots of studies and legitimate science if you are interested in understanding why or how we know that.

Micah: Sarah, one question I had here is looking at these tweets, why could they potentially be misleading or misinformative to the average person looking at the tweet and saying, “Oh, it’s just J.K. Rowling tweeting again”? Because I think that has happened a lot, as it did back in December.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that something that a lot of people try to discuss when they are saying why they don’t support a marginalized population is they make an argument that the marginalized population is not making. So here, the arguments she’s using is “My experience has been shaped by being female.” Yeah, no one is questioning that. And honestly, if anyone here has spoken with trans people, they understand that they have had their experience shaped by how they were socialized, what they were assigned at birth; this isn’t a novel concept or something that trans people don’t already think. Being trans does not mean automatically that you are as far left as you can go politically and want to burn all categories. There are a lot of trans people that I work with that are more conservative or more traditional in their beliefs about what gender is and what gender roles they should follow. And this connection to “All trans people believe that sex doesn’t exist, where being female doesn’t have lived consequences” is not what anyone is saying, besides J.K. Rowling, apparently.

Laura: And we wanted to talk a little bit about why we think J.K. Rowling may be doing this now, why she’s been consistently doing this, especially for the last six months or so. We actually got a really great email from Anna, who resides in Scotland, about the Scottish Gender Recognition Act. Scotland is currently looking to reform its 2004 Gender Recognition Act in order to make gender recognition more accessible to trans people living in Scotland. Of course, J.K. Rowling also lives in Scotland. Something that I observed when I looked up the recommendation from Scottish Parliament about the Gender Recognition Act is that it was published on December 17 of last year, and of course, we all remember J.K. Rowling’s December tweet about Maya Forstater – I always forget her last name – that came on December 19. So it seems possible that J.K. Rowling may have been made aware of this around the time it was published, and that that sort of incentivized her to start speaking out on this.

Sarah: Yeah, and also, I hear a lot of people on Twitter and in the fandom… I’ve been in this fandom for my entire life, practically. I started listening to MuggleCast in 2006, and attending Harry Potter conferences that year as well. And so a lot of things that I have been seeing have been supportive of trans people and dismissing J.K. Rowling’s statement, but for some people that may not understand why this is so harmful… I mean, yesterday we had Trump try and set limitations on healthcare for trans people. And you have to do a lot of reading, and some of it I think you have to understand how trans healthcare already works, because you might think right away, “Okay, this limits access to trans-affirmative care,” which some people may or may not already see as cosmetic or optional procedures. But this also limits whether or not trans men are able to get hysterectomies, whether they are able to get tested for ovarian cancer, whether trans women can get prostate exams… it disrupts and will kill a lot of people because we have care that we have gendered. And we are trying – and by we, I mean the Trump administration in the US – is trying to limit whether or not these things will be allowed to be done through insurance. And we all know through insurance that if you can’t get a very serious procedure – or sometimes a very simple procedure – done, you are potentially going bankrupt doing it out of pocket. And so this is a huge problem, and if it does pass, will have a very deadly effect on trans people.

Eric: It really seems like a global effort, or a global affront, is taking place that’s been taking place over the last couple of years. But really, this movement really seems to be… it crosses country borders, really.

Andrew: And I think it’s one of the fights of our generation.

Laura: Agreed. I’d also like to point out, to Sarah’s point about this move by the Trump administration here in the US, that happened on the fourth anniversary of the Pulse nightclub shooting, and I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

Andrew: In Pride Month too.

Laura: Yeah, during Pride Month. It feels like a massive dog whistle. And that is exactly why – and Sarah, you can let me know if this is accurate – it’s exactly why this kind of rhetoric is dangerous.

Eric: Now, dog whistle, I want to redefine that term. We’ve heard it only once before on this show that I can recall.

Laura: Essentially, a type of virtue signaling.

Sarah: You could easily say, and people do, that it’s just one person’s opinion and we shouldn’t get outraged about it. But there’s a few issues with that, in general, when people state opinions like this, but particularly when J.K. Rowling states that opinion like this, because these opinions are not from nowhere. If it truly was J.K. Rowling on an island by herself – and like, please let that happen – but if that’s what was happening and she just had this opinion and was stating it into a void, okay, that probably doesn’t have a ton of ripples societally. But these are very well-known opinions. These are opinions that she is shouting at a very, very large platform. These are opinions that she is shouting when she has a lot of money, and politics is often run by money, and so there is a lot of ability that she has more than just her words that we don’t know about to influence how laws pass, how policies pass. And that is true everywhere. I can’t tell you how many times… within therapy, in general, a lot of times what people are coming in for is internalized problems, so bad communication, issues with forming positive relationships, trust issues, things that they can sit in my office and I can be like, “Here’s how you fix this.” And when you work with marginalized folk, and I work primarily with trans people, they are coming in because outside of my office in their life, there are these issues, and those are things that they cannot fix. They are coming in because there are bureaucratic issues that allow them to be misgendered, or to not get the care that they need. They are coming in because they have… in Nevada, where I live, luckily, we have a lot of state protections, but not every state does. And so they are coming in because the world is actively against them in a lot of ways. And this is how the world became actively against them, is people have these opinions. And we, for an unknown reason, said that they were allowed their opinion, more than we said that these trans people were allowed to live.

Laura: And for just one example of the impact, we wanted to share an email from a listener who wrote in. This is from Collin, and Collin says, “I’m a transgender man (meaning I was assigned female at birth), and Harry Potter has always been a really important part of my life. I started reading the books when I was 7, and I’m 20 now. I’m a gay man, I’ve had relationships with gay men, and it’s never been an issue. Not once. This kind of talk just further divides the LGBT community and it’s been a talking point for hateful fringe parts of the cis gay community for decades. It really hurts to have to recognize that these beliefs are part of the person who created my favorite series, and it hurts even more that she’s doubling down even now. I know it can be hard to accept something is true when you don’t want it to be, especially about someone you look up to, so I hope the people struggling with that right now recognize how much more painful it is for the people this is directly aimed at. A big part of transitioning is making it through all the people who are questioning you, and think that they know you better than you do. It’s really painful that a woman whose work was such an important part of my childhood is one of them.”

Andrew: Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Collin. And so before we get to J.K. Rowling’s blog post, I just want to highlight some of the responses from Harry Potter actors. These came as a surprise, starting with Dan Radcliffe on June 8, who spoke out. I don’t think anybody saw this coming. Dan Radcliffe is very separated from Harry Potter these days, but he’s actually been very involved with the Trevor Project. Laura mentioned it at the top of the show; this is a hotline for LGBTQ people to call at any time for some free counseling. He posted on the Trevor Project’s website a statement in response to J.K. Rowling’s thoughts and came out against her pretty strongly. He said, “As someone who has been honored to work with and continues to contribute to the Trevor Project for the last decade, and just as a human being, I feel compelled to say something in this moment. Transgender women are women. Any statement to the contrary erases the identity and dignity of transgender people and goes against all advice given by professional healthcare associations who have far more expertise on the subject matter than either Jo or I.” And he says more, but we will get into that later in the show.

Eric: On the point of Dan, on the point of Collin’s email so far, is empathy. This comes down to how much empathy you have for people who suffer from being marginalized. And I think that… I get a lot of empathy reading Dan’s statement. I do not get a lot of empathy reading Jo’s sarcastic retort on Twitter about people who menstruate. And that’s going to, I think, be a throughline as we continue discussing this.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I would just add, too, I think it’s also about education, right? For people like myself, who just are not familiar enough. And I think that that’s part of doing the show, that’s part about having these conversations, because if you’re able to better educate yourself and understand, that goes a long way as well. That’s, to me, in tandem with being empathetic towards other people in who they are.

Sarah: And that’s one thing I appreciated from Dan’s statement, is as far as I’m aware, it’s the only Harry Potter response person who has said that there are people who have far more expertise on the subject than him or Jo. And that’s one thing that obviously I would notice, because that’s another issue. I mean, that’s a whole 2020 vibe right now of not trusting expertise, and not understanding that expertise exists. Like, you watch one YouTube video and you think you’re a genius on the matter. And so that’s another thing that occurs in J.K. Rowling; her statement is coded with language that does make it seem like she is an expert. And a lot of people, when they do state opinions, if they are in positions of power, can make their opinions seem like fact. And we know all too well that that works. And so I appreciated that. This isn’t some weird thing just happening online, or that Jo thinks is new to the world. This has been studied for decades. This has been worked on for as long… these are conversations that are already happening, and we know a lot more about it than what we put on Twitter.

Micah: Even given recent events, I think we’re seeing more so that people are not being silent about things anymore, even if it’s uncomfortable, and I think that goes a long way in terms of allyship.

Andrew: So on June 10, Emma Watson came out against J.K. Rowling’s statement as well. She said, “Trans people are who they say they are and deserve to live their lives without being constantly questioned or told they aren’t who they say they are.” And then on June 12, Rupert Grint completed the trifecta and issued a similar statement. I saw this funny tweet on Twitter: “These statements literally came in true trio order: Harry bold yet dramatic, Hermione eloquent yet pedantic, and Ron loyal yet late.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Honestly, the solidarity. Noma Dumezweni, Bonnie Wright, Eddie Redmayne famously…

Andrew: Evanna Lynch.

Eric: Evanna Lynch followed Dan. All of these actors. Dan Fogler now, as well.

Andrew: Yeah. And I will say, it was gutsier for Eddie Redmayne and Dan Fogler to come out in support of trans people and against J.K. Rowling’s statements, because they still work for J.K. Rowling.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It was gutsy for Dan and Rupert and Emma, for sure. But they still have to go and see her. And in fact, on Friday night, the screenwriter who’s working with J.K. Rowling on Fantastic Beasts 3 and who wrote seven of the eight Harry Potter movies, Steve Kloves, he came out against J.K. Rowling’s statement as well. So a lot of people are speaking out about this, and good for them, because they could have just stayed silent and not annoy their boss. Somebody who did play it safe was Warner Bros., but we’ll get to that at the end of the show.

Eric: [laughs] Well, one statement that’s apparent in many if not all of these Harry Potter cast and crew statements is trans women are women, trans men are men. Something as simple as that line far exceeds the level to which J.K. Rowling is willing to go. In her long 3,700-word response, she does not once allow trans people the dignity of saying anything as direct as that one line, and that’s huge to me.

Sarah: Yeah, she gets close at some points, and then she just flies in a different direction. I’m like, “You were almost there. Keyword almost.” [laughs]

Eric: It’s almost as if by saying that line, that it’s a rebuke to J.K. Rowling’s whole point, to everything that she’s doing. I mean, the fact that these stars spoke out is not a coincidence. It’s because it needed to be spoken, because people are in pain, because people are hurting.

Andrew: Trans people need our support, yeah. So let’s talk about this article. She posted this on JKRowling.com under the headline “J.K. Rowling writes about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender issues.” I just want to point out first that there is not a single link and only two citations in this entire 3,000+ word blog post, and I find that very irresponsible because she is sharing a lot of information. You really have to step back for a second to think about why she is not linking to her sources.

Micah: In addition to publishing this, she did put it out on Twitter and the only words that were utilized in the tweet were “TERF wars.” And I wonder, Sarah, can you just explain what a TERF is? Because I think probably a lot of our listeners aren’t aware of what that term means.

Sarah: Yeah, so TERF stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist, and TERF is a word used when people are excluding trans people from feminism and not acknowledging trans existence. I mean, TERF is discussed by TERFs as being a slur. It’s actually kinder than I think it should be. For those who follow feminism and the different waves of feminism, not just understand that feminism is a thing, radical feminism is not really what most TERFs are doing. It is used as a descriptor, and it is describing the statements that are being made. But a lot of people who are called TERFs pretend as though it is a slur, especially as though it is a slur against cis women, and that will come up a lot in the statement.

Eric: When we had Rori Porter on, she told us that TERF was actually a term created by that movement, that it was not in fact, as J.K. Rowling claims in her article, coined by trans activists.

Sarah: I think it actually might be. I don’t remember the origin of TERF, but that would not surprise me if that were true. Because again, a lot of people… they’re not radical feminists. And so it is a bit of a weird thing that I think trans activists would pick up on more, and so that makes a lot more sense in the history of the term.

Laura: Sarah, I wanted to ask if you think this could be a fair historical comparison in an earlier wave of feminism. Before any of us were born, feminism – or at least mainstream feminism – did not include lesbians, for example.

Sarah: Yeah.

Laura: Is that a similar sort of thing that’s happening here with trans-exclusionary radical feminism?

Sarah: A little bit. So yeah, there used to be… I mean, I think a lot of what it comes down to is feminism; there are many waves. There are many scholars and historical activists and people involved in feminism, and they think different things, which is why there’s different strands of feminism. And so a lot of what TERFs are relying on is essentialism arguments. And so what essentialism is… I mean, hopefully, exactly as it sounds like, that there is an innate womanhood. This is what it is, and that’s it. And so essentialism itself is not very widely utilized, or highly regarded in a lot of scholarship anymore. There are obviously some people that still hold essentialist views, but we’re not really there. A lot of scholarship is discussing social constructionism, which is “Gender is a construct,” you might have heard before. That’s where that comes from. And so that’s the other issue that Andrew already brought up. I mean, she doesn’t cite her sources, but also, she’s going into lots of different waves, and so you can’t follow her argument. Even if she cited it, she would probably… let’s pretend that this was a peer-reviewed journal, and if that were the case, she would be citing so many contradictory people that it would never get published. Every reviewer would be like, “You can’t have this person’s thoughts and this person’s thoughts together. They think different things.” [laughs]

Andrew: Right, right. And there are a lot of statements in this blog post that contradict each other. I mean, just on their face, I found it really irresponsible. So what we’re going to do is we’re going to kind of treat this like a Chapter by Chapter segment. [laughs] I think we’re going to pull out some quotes and dive into our reactions to them and why they’re wrong. And in the show… look, we could spend – seriously, I’m not joking – six hours talking about this, but we’re going to try to do it in 30-45 minutes.

Eric: Here’s the thing. I read this and my overall impression, coming away… I initially saw that she had written a post on her website. I said, “Thank God, we’re finally going to get her opinion on this, and I’m finally going to be able to understand,” because Twitter is not the best way. Everybody knows Twitter is not the best way to communicate. Everybody knows that. But after reading this article – it’s very long – I read it and I came away going, “Huh, okay, J.K. Rowling is not a bad person. She’s just really, really, really concerned about the state of current the politics and gender identity and all that stuff.” And I came away, and I walked away going, “She’s just really concerned about this.” And it’s almost like that new meme where you’re reading something and you go “checks notes.” It’s like, “Okay, so J.K. Rowling is a nice person. She just – checks notes – is afraid that transgender women are going to violate women’s spaces in the bathrooms and attack women?” It almost doesn’t…

Sarah: Which, for the record, never happens.

Eric: Yeah, when transgender women have problems in the bathroom, it’s because cis people are uncomfortable with them being there, and cis people are the instigators of many of these reported results. I’ve done some research after this. But is that the major theme of this, then? Because it’s hidden behind a lot of “I feel” statements, which we’re inclined to sympathize with because it’s J.K. Rowling, the woman who we’ve regarded for so long. But I myself, I hate how much I was swayed at first by what seemed to be a really concerned woman with a lot of legitimate concerns about the world today.

Sarah: And that’s something that will come up a lot through different quotes that we highlight. She uses a lot of common logical fallacies in order to trap you in that, and the way that… I mean, it works well because not a lot of people are experts in this. Not even a lot of trans people are. And so there are… I was reached out by some trans people when I was posting on Twitter about this. Not all trans people even disagree with J.K. Rowling. Most do. But this is something that I think absolutely, it is very easy to fall into the very pretty language that she used to construct her argument, and she leads you in the direction she wants to lead you.

Andrew: And she tries to be friendly and funny at points too.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s condescending. [laughs]

Eric: It seems so manipulative.

Micah: I think, yeah, it goes back to even when we were talking about the tweets earlier on the surface level. If that’s all you’re reading at, you can walk away and not necessarily feel one way or the other, or not understand what the whole to-do is about. But I wanted to start off at the beginning here because I think it’s interesting to see how she first got involved with even thinking about trans issues. And in her open letter, she says that it was really professional. She said, “On one level, my interest in this issue has been professional, because I’m writing a crime series -“ she’s referring to the Cormoran Strike series, “- set in the present day, and my fictional female detective -“ whose name is Robin “- is of an age to be interested in, and affected by, these issues herself.” And I’ve read all the Cormoran Strike novels to date. My question was, “Affected in what respect?” We know at least in one of the books, this character encounters another character in The Silkworm, and the character that’s encountered, her name is Pippa. She’s a transgender woman undergoing therapy ahead of gender reassignment surgery. And again, I don’t think we need to jump in necessarily to the story, but this seems to have been her entry point into having conversations and learning about the trans community.

Eric: I mean, I love this quote, to be “of an age to be interested in.” What age is that exactly, to be affected by transgenderism? Because trans folks are affected by this their whole lives. So what level of privilege is this right here?

Sarah: So what she’s talking about… and this is, again, another through point, so I’ll talk more about this later, because this is… one of the main sources that she cited is Lisa Littman. And this is a huge… Lisa’s peer-reviewed publication came out in 2018 and then was republished in 2019, but the thing that is most used in TERF spaces is what is known as rapid-onset gender dysphoria. And so what this is referring to – which, again, is not clear if you hadn’t already read the publication before the statement as I had – it is talking about how teenagers huddle up in teenage groups and all become trans.

Andrew: I could not believe that.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s quite a lot. So again, there’s a lot of points of this. I want to discuss it later when she actually discusses this as evidence because it’s one of the only things that she uses, but have it be known, most of the language, if it seems weird or particular, a lot of it is really referring to this one publication, which is ridiculous.

Andrew: And also, J.K. Rowling does not have to have this type of storyline in her books. She’s acting like, “Oh, because it’s set in present day, I just have to research this and have to include it.” No, you don’t. You’re still writing a fictional world.

Eric: Well, and not to mention the character of Pippa is like, the world’s worst stereotype of transgender women. And Cormoran himself threatens Pippa with rape, prison rape.

Sarah: I didn’t know that. I’ve never read this. But what I was about to say is that I’m sure that even in her “research,” it’s not even accurate, because I mean, there is no minimum therapy requirement to receive a therapeutic support letter for gender reassignment surgery, or what we know as gender affirmation surgeries. And so my assumption is that this book writes about it in very outdated terms that aren’t common ethical practice right now. So… ooh, yikes. A lot of yikes.

Micah: Yeah, I’m sure we could definitely do an entire episode just digging into these issues as they pertain specifically to The Silkworm, but wanted to highlight another quote that she had in her open letter, one that was almost digging for sympathy, I would say. And she said, “What I didn’t expect in the aftermath of my cancellation -“ and she’s talking about her Twitter cancellation “- was the avalanche of emails and letters that came showering down upon me, the overwhelming majority of which were positive, grateful, and supportive. They came from a cross-section of kind, empathetic, and intelligent people, some of them working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria and trans people, who’re all deeply concerned about the way a socio-political concept is influencing politics, medical practice, and safeguarding.”

Andrew: She really wanted to let us know that some people are on her side, and yeah, okay, great. When you have 14 million followers on Twitter, I would expect some people to agree with you. Congratulations.

Sarah: But if you’re not going to name people, though… “influencing politics, medical practice, and safeguarding.” Who we talking about? Are they actually people that are credible and are well-known for working within the space? And what I am viewing this whole thing as is if J.K. Rowling isn’t talking about it, I am assuming that either she is not actually hearing from these people, or she is hearing from people that are not very credible, because of the times when someone does seem credible – again, such as Lisa Littman – she discusses in great detail who this person is. She is very name-droppy about it.

Andrew: Right.

Sarah: And so I don’t buy it. This isn’t correct.

Eric: Yeah, I saw on Twitter, this quote, “Working in fields dealing with gender dysphoria.” Somebody said, “Yeah, like a bathroom architect could claim to work in this field.”

[Micah and Sarah laugh]

Eric: Are those people emailing Jo? Who’s emailing Jo? But what bothers me the most about this is she says that all of these people are kind, empathetic, intelligent. If they saw what she posted on Twitter in December, which is “Live how you like, dress how you like, feel the way you want to feel” in that very standoffish gender cancellation, trans cancellation tweet, how could anybody respond to that going, “Yeah, Jo, you’re right”? How are those empathetic, kind people? Because she was spewing hate when people replied to that. So what about it makes them kind and empathetic?

Laura: They agree with her. It’s honestly just a better-worded version of the “Many people are saying” argument that we hear a lot nowadays.

Micah: It also in a way has an underlying implication that those who are in opposition to her are not kind, empathetic, or intelligent.

Sarah: Yeah, which she directly says later in the statement. And so yeah, she is painting a picture, and this is the picture that she’s painting. I don’t know why she’s choosing to paint this.

Andrew: She also said, “I’d stepped back from Twitter for many months both before and after tweeting support for Maya, because I knew it was doing nothing good for my mental health.” That is something we suspected, and look, we understand Twitter can be a bad, dark place. And then she says, “Ironically, radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary – they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.”

Laura: Oof.

Andrew: Sarah, what is wrong with this?

Sarah: No, they weren’t. They were assigned female at birth. And also, widely known about feminism: not just about women. The patriarchy affects men and women. And so this was one of the funnier things to me when reading the statement, was how when she was trying to paint her argument, she accidentally said the exact transphobic thing she’s being accused of instead of her flowery language. Yeah, if you are calling trans men “women,” that is the point. That is the problem with everything you are thinking.

Eric: But that goes in line with what she said about people who menstruate are women, right?

Sarah: Yeah. And I mean, that isn’t even true, medically. There are lots of cis women who don’t menstruate, either by choice through birth control, or through a medical issue where they have to have surgery done. They have polycystic ovarian syndrome. There are lots of legitimate reasons where women don’t menstruate.

Eric: Oh, not to mention postmenopausal women as well, our grandmothers.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. And there are also lots of men who menstruate. A lot of people don’t understand how transition works, but it is very common for trans men either to menstruate continuously while on testosterone, or to have issues with hormone levels where it comes back for a period of time. I have three trans men that I’m working with right now that this is currently an issue that they are going to doctors about, and they’re not quite sure what happened with their levels or if their prescription needs to be changed or something in life, but their period just returned. This is just incorrect. And also, a lot of cis women don’t view that as helpful. When you just say womanhood is about menstruation, we have a lot of historical issues with women who experience infertility not being included in womanhood. And so she is saying that she wants to be supported in her womanhood, but she’s not even including all women in that because there are lots of cis women who would probably feel better with the opinion article titled as it was, because it doesn’t call into question their womanhood for not bleeding.

Laura: It also just feels like a strange hill to die on to say that womanhood is defined by menstruation, because anyone who’s ever experienced menstruation knows that it’s not something that is societally celebrated.

Andrew: Yeah, you don’t love it, right? It’s not like, a party.

Sarah: It’s also medically damaging. Endometriosis is a huge issue that a lot more women face than we have diagnosed that they are facing. And a lot of times women will go to the ER or go schedule doctor appointments to discuss endometriosis symptoms, and will be told that they are exaggerating or they’re being hysterical or that this isn’t what’s happening. And so this is like… no one’s paying attention to this anyway. [laughs]

Laura: In her statement she moves on to say, “Accusations of TERFery have been sufficient to intimidate many people, institutions, and organizations I once admired, who’re cowering before the tactics of the playground. […] What’s next, they’ll say you’ve got fleas? Speaking as a biological woman, a lot of people in positions of power really need to grow a pair (which is doubtless literally possible, according to the kind of people who argue that clownfish prove humans aren’t…” I don’t know that word.

Sarah: Dimorphic, yeah.

Laura: Okay. [laughs] “… aren’t dimorphic species.”

Micah: This is where – I think, Andrew, you mentioned it earlier – she tries to get a little cute. She tries to be funny, and it just doesn’t resonate. Honestly, for me, I read that and I was just completely confused.

Andrew: My brain shorted out here too. I think she’s trying to confuse us. [laughs]

Sarah: Andrew, you’re mostly right that she is trying to confuse you. She is. It is mind-boggling how many wrong things were said. I don’t know if any of you watch Schitt’s Creek, but I’ve never heard someone say so many wrong things in a row consecutively. First of all, we’ve already discussed “biological woman” and that not being an affirmative term. So what she means is being cisgender, which is the word that we use if you were assigned female at birth and identify as a woman. She’s continuing to again use a logical fallacy. This is a slippery slope argument. And she is using this to make trans-affirmation look moronic for people who do not understand what trans-affirmation actually is, and so she is being very deliberate in talking about clownfish and saying that we think that you can literally grow a pair. No, no one says any of that. And this is another place that… for people who understand more about trans activism and also TERF spaces, she is using a lot of TERF language. Some of the examples, we’re not going to talk about all them in quotes, but you can look through the statement [laughs] if you feel you must. So “gender critical women” is a very TERF term; discussing the category, the gender, as women, men, and trans people; discussing “natal” girls; discussing rapid-onset gender dysphoria. Those are terms you only see if you are on TERF Twitter, or in TERF spaces. And so those are other reasons that we know that the sources that she’s supposedly reading are not legitimate. These are not terms that are scholarly; these are terms that are almost exclusively used in transphobic spaces and publications and blogs.

Eric: And they run up against science.

Sarah: Yes.

Andrew: So if you don’t want to be called a TERF, don’t use TERF language out of the TERF dictionary. It’s kind of that simple. So now let’s move on to the BuzzFeed portion of the article; she laid out the top five reasons why she’s speaking out.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: This article is all over the place.

Sarah: It really is.

Eric: There’s a listicle in here!

Micah: I know that there’s been a lot of troubling things that have already been said, but I think it gets even more so as we move into this top five because there’s so many things that are conflated together that really… I understand for her there’s connections, but the conclusions that she ultimately draws, I think, are a little bit discomforting.

Andrew: And she calls this “the new trans activism,” but Sarah, you take issue with that, right?

Sarah: Yeah, this isn’t new. I mean, we are seeing now with a lot of the Black Lives Matter movement and a lot of intersectionality with that, people are becoming very well-acquainted that Stonewall was started by black trans women. This has always been the case. Trans women and trans men and trans issues are intertwined with a lot of queer history. And to this point, the “like” incidents that she had actually showed you even more how exclusionary and transphobic her beliefs are, because she publicly acknowledged through liking the tweet of a gay activist, whose name is Fred Sargeant, who was a veteran of the Stonewall riots, and a “first Pride organizer and an early contributor to the first draft of the gay agenda,” according to his Twitter bio, and he is a fierce advocate of exclusion of transgender people from the LGBTQ community. And he says, “It’s time to remove the T from same-sex advocacy groups. Trans has nothing to do with us and we owe them nothing.” So I’m just going to leave that there for you.

Laura: Oof.

Micah: Let’s take a look here at the five reasons why she’s speaking out. The first is related to her charitable trust, which is focused on alleviating social deprivation with an emphasis on both women and children. She says, “Among other things, my trust supports projects for female prisoners and for survivors of domestic and sexual abuse. I also fund medical research into MS, a disease that behaves very differently in men and women. It’s been clear to me for a while that the new trans activism is having (or is likely to have, if all its demands are met) a significant impact on many of the causes I support, because it’s pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender.”

Laura: And we felt this was a good time to talk about what the proposed changes to the Scottish Gender Recognition Act would look like, because after you read this, it makes me wonder what she’s talking about in the preamble to these recommendations. It says, “The Scottish Government’s proposals to reform the 2004 Act will not make any changes to the Equality Act of 2010. […] This means that single sex services are protected as are single sex employment rights and health services.” According to this, Scotland is not looking to make the kinds of changes that she claims the trans community is trying to push for. Additionally, I wanted to point out that the reason that Scotland is looking to update its Gender Recognition Act is because the World Health Organization has actually updated its definition of gender identity. So according to the World Health Organization, gender identity disorders are no longer listed in the “Mental and behavioral disorders” chapter, and are now in the new “Conditions related to sexual health” chapter. So this is twofold. Scotland is looking to take down some of the barriers that in the past made it more difficult for people to have their gender recognized, but at the same time, they’re also working to be compliant with the World Health Organization.

Micah: This would have been a perfect opportunity for her, though – we talked about it earlier in the episode – to include a link to provide people with a reference point for this Gender Recognition bill in Scotland, because without having this available to us without one of our listeners sending it in, I don’t think we would have the same context.

Eric: Yeah, we’re going to take her word for it. She wants us to take her word for it. And even though I read this for the first time, and I was like, “Oh, she’s really concerned,” I did get the sense that there was some kind of boogeyman in the background of all of her writing.

Sarah: There was one point where she discussed a certificate, and I remember reading that and being like, “What is she talking about? What certificate is this? And what does she think she’s talking about? What’s going on?” And I didn’t know that this was happening. I mean, there are always policy changes happening, trying to limit trans healthcare everywhere, and so I should have assumed that there was something happening. But the certificate that she talks about later is directly from this proposed act, and it made it abundantly clear to me, and I then reread the statement through that lens. And a lot of the language that she uses is… essentially, she is trying to talk to politicians, trying to lobby for her side of this, and we were just thrown along for the ride without our consent.

Micah: Or just without any context or knowledge as to what this is all about. But the next reason that she gave is that she is an ex-teacher and a founder of a children’s charity, so another charitable foundation position coming from J.K. Rowling here, giving her an interest in education and safeguarding. Safeguarding against what?

Eric: Huh, here we go. Yeah, it’s all about not teaching our kids that they can be who they say they are, right? It’s all about teaching our kids to be the children that we want them to be.

Sarah: So many things like this that are written about marginalized folk pretend that those people don’t exist, and that they aren’t reading this right now. When you are a teacher, you are teaching some people who are cisgender and some people who are trans. So who are we safeguarding?

Laura: Sounds more like gatekeeping.

Andrew: Point three, freedom of speech.

Laura: Yeah, so this was an interesting one. And we’ve actually gotten some commentary from a few folks pointing out we can’t attack J.K. Rowling’s right to free speech. I would just observe – and I mean, I’m speaking from a purely American perspective – we have some documentation here about what free speech looks like in the UK. But freedom of speech, just as a rule, does not mean freedom from consequences, does not mean freedom from other people’s speech. So just as J.K. Rowling can say whatever she wants, we are allowed to respond how we want.

Andrew: Yeah, a lot of people seem to be conveniently forgetting that.

Laura: Yeah, well, it’s a really common thing that happens in this country where people like to lean on freedom of speech, and they forget that the First Amendment protects you from the government, not from private citizens or businesses. So when you put something out into the universe, you have the right to do that, at least in this country, as long as it’s not something like yelling “Fire” in a crowded room, for example. People have every right to respond to that with their own free speech, and that’s exactly what we’re doing here.

Eric: This third reason is two sentences long and she mentions Donald Trump. That’s one of the one of the few names she drops in this paper, is Donald Trump. “I’m interested in freedom of speech and have publicly defended it, even unto Donald Trump.” Okay, thanks, Jo.

Laura: Also, just wanted to point out there could be a different classification of this in the UK. None of us here are experts on free speech in the UK and what exactly it means and the legalities behind this, but we did want to include this: “The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions, or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, […] public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others.” So that is from the Human Rights Act of 1998.

Andrew: All right, let’s move on to this fourth point. This is a big one: concern about the numbers of people who are detransitioning. So in other words, these people are deciding to transition, in J.K. Rowling’s opinion, sometimes too early, and then they change their minds. And according to her, studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria. Sarah, fact or fiction?

Sarah: [laughs] This is wild. No, no, no.

Andrew: Fiction.

Sarah: Yeah, this is absolutely incorrect. So here are some of the things that we do know about how gender dysphoria works. And I want to be very clear with this, we don’t have many studies directly researching this. And part of that is, again, because this is a marginalized group, and a lot of research is done through grants, and this is not always grant-funded research. But also, in order to understand this methodologically, you would need to do longitudinal studies, and we have not. And so these numbers are crazy. But what we do know is that there was a study done in 1993, which seems like a long time ago, but scholarly, it’s not actually considered that long ago, in terms of this kind of research. And so regrets about transitioning were extremely rare; they found that 1-1.5% of male-to-female trans women, and under 1% of trans men, so female-to-male, regretted transitioning. And further, there was a 2012 trans mental health study, which found when we talk about regrets, and trans people say that they have regrets. Most of the time they are regretting not transitioning sooner, wanted to use a different surgeon, having a complication from surgery, having a work issue arise from coming out… they are not discussing that they don’t want to transition or they regret transitioning in general. And so this is just absolutely false, what she is throwing out.

Eric: This 1993 study says 1-1.5%. That is not 60-90% of people.

Sarah: Yeah. And also, if you say… again, I just keep pretending if this was a peer-reviewed journal, because it makes me laugh every time. That would be so hard. They would just be like, “This is not… how did you get such a crazy number? 60-90 is such a range. This isn’t anything.”

Andrew: It’s a big range.

Sarah: Yeah, this wouldn’t be published. [laughs]

Micah: Because on one end, you’re almost saying 100% of the people, and that’s…

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] It’s insane.

Laura: And I also wanted to point out just from the political side of things, just given the fact that it seems likely that this is where at least part of her concerns lie, according to the Gender Recognition Act in Scotland, the act of 2004, nobody under the age of 18 can apply for legal gender recognition. The proposed changes to the act say that they may consider lowering that age to 16, so they’re going to seek views about doing that. But certainly, even if this proposal were to be accepted, nobody under the age of 16 would be able to do this. Currently, the age is 18. So it makes me wonder where she’s getting this concern about gender dysphoric children and teens being able to apply for legal gender recognition too early, because it doesn’t seem that the law would allow for it.

Sarah: Yeah. And I have points to discuss a bit later as we get more into quotes that she says that touch more on this, but a lot of gender affirmation procedures and options are done on an informed consent basis, which means you are an adult; you are an autonomous person with agency over your own body. It is my job as the healthcare professional to explain to you what you are engaging in, and then that is it. It is not my job to tell you whether or not you are or are not trans, you will or will not regret this, and lots of adults do things that they regret sometimes. So yes, some people do detransition; that is not a zero. And so that is life. People regret tattoos, people regret other surgeries, people regret marriages. Sometimes you regret something.

Andrew: Right. But she’s so flippant with it; she says, “Oh, so many people are detransitioning,” as if these people did not put a lot of thought into this. And we referenced this earlier; she said that teen girls just get together on a Friday night, and instead of braiding each other’s hair and playing board games or whatever they’re doing, gossiping about boys, they all get together and they say, “You know what? Let’s all change our gender.” In what world does that happen? Certainly not on this planet. And I find it so offensive that she would just be so flippant with that kind of idea. And also, reminds me of this passage a little later, where she says, “I can’t help but wonder if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition.” J.K. Rowling, this is not a light decision that people take. They don’t make it to avoid physical abuse, they’re making it because they feel deep within them that they are not the biological sex that they were born with.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s something that, from the mental health point of view… and again, this is as an American experience, and so it is different in the UK. Some of it is more streamlined; that makes it in a lot of ways harder to get a hold of. Getting, I guess “registered” is not the right word that they would use, but getting involved with a gender clinic makes it so that way your procedures are covered, but it also can be a huge waitlist. And so as an American and working in healthcare, you have to do a lot of work. And what we are fighting for, and what J.K. Rowling is I think unintentionally fighting against, is we are not trying to necessarily make it “easier” just for the sake of making it easier. But it’s tied to knowledge; it’s tied to research. What is happening now, because we are having all these policy limitations on trans-affirmative care, is it allows professionals to not be knowledgeable of what gender dysphoria looks like, how to treat it, and how it presents. And that is what is killing people. And so when you are working in mental health for trans people, there is an ethical standard that we are supposed to follow called the WPATH Standards of Care. WPATH is the World Professional Association of Transgender Health. It’s available for free online; you can look it up. It’s like a 120 page PDF, but it has a pretty good table of contents, so you can look around. But there are discussions like, “This is what healthcare professionals or therapists in this case are supposed to help you with,” explaining how to work through the systems of oppression, to know what’s going on. And I have worked with several clients that have thought they were trans and realized it was something else. And it’s something that I introduce readily to them that you can be questioning, you can know that there’s something up, but there’s a lack of language, there’s a lack of research. And because of that, you cannot exactly know what is happening or what you want to do, especially because we have this in such binary terms. And so sometimes what that looks like is someone comes in and they believe that they are a trans guy and that they need to do all of medical transition, become “complete,” a lot of people will use that language, and then they’ll realize that “Oh, no. I want testosterone, yes. I want top surgery, yes. But I don’t need bottom surgery,” or “I don’t need to change my name. I don’t need to change my gender marker here.” As I discuss this with clients, it’s as if you’re entering a buffet, and you have a choice of what things you choose at that buffet. And if J.K. Rowling was in therapy… also, it doesn’t need to be 30 years later. Trans people existed 30 years ago. You just needed to find someone who was informed on this. And right now, because of the policy limitations, people are not informed, and it is making it harder for trans people to find educated providers for them to explain what’s going on, to help them see what’s going on, and also, just medically to still do the tests that they need. There are lots of times that trans people will go into a medical office or the ER and request something like, again, a hysterectomy or a prostate exam, and they will be denied that because they will believe that they do not need that. And that kind of flippant response is what we’re fighting against here and what we’re hoping to alleviate by educating people further.

Andrew: Let’s complete her listicle here, though. Point five was that she shared her personal experiences with domestic abuse and sexual assault. And of course, that is absolutely awful; we are so sorry to hear that. She notes that this is the first time she’s speaking so openly about this. She also got permission from her daughter to share her story. But she says this is one of the reasons why she felt the need to speak out.

Eric: Yeah, here’s a quote that she sounds really understanding of the situation at large. She says, “I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of color, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men. So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any men who believe or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.” Sarah, is that the simple truth?

Sarah: No.

[Andrew and Sarah laugh]

Eric: She’s seeming so understanding. That whole thing about how trans women are so at risk, it seems to… she’s doing my head in here.

Andrew: The bathroom argument is so darn stupid, and this has come up in America multiple times as well. The bathrooms for women and men, public restrooms, are unlocked. Guys can get in there and be total you-know-whats, awful people if they really want to; they do not need to transition in order to do that. I think this bathroom argument is just so stupid, and it gets brought up so often. A bathroom door with a women’s sign on it is not going to stop men from being predators.

Eric: Don’t we also think that trans women are more at risk if they use a men’s room, if they’ve transitioned?

Andrew and Sarah: Yes.

Sarah: I mean, so this is something that lots of trans people will consciously think about before they leave their house, is how long they’re going to be gone, whether or not they’re going to need to use a restroom while they’re gone, how close they’re going to be to home. Because the bathroom debates that are happening make it unsafe for trans women to use the men or women’s restroom; also make it unsafe for trans men to use the men or women’s restroom. There are lots of times… the abuse that happens is to trans people, where some person is trying to police them. And I mean, it is scary. Think about how scary that would be, if you are just trying to use the restroom, especially if you really need to use the restroom, and then you were just being yelled at, or the manager is being called on you, or the police are being called on you. And that is what happens to a lot of trans people. And I mean, in her fifth point… and I know that there’s been a lot of things that have happened since then, about J.K. Rowling’s history of abuse and discussing it in terms of… I think The Sun is the publication that…

Eric: Which, I’m going to come right out and condemn that. That was the worst display of anything. And it’s very easy to say that that is the absolute worst thing that could have come from this tabloid.

Sarah: No, that was appalling. But it becomes clear, and quite honestly, I think J.K. Rowling is proving through this piece, she really needs therapy. This is something that she very casually, and again, tries to make a joke of. It’s a common family running gag, like my jumpiness. That is PTSD. And I’m not diagnosing her, but I’m saying that there are a lot of things that she wrote that are upsetting, and I hope that she gets help for it. And she discusses at different places, so she discusses abuse and she discusses her coming to terms with femininity for herself. As Harry Potter fans, I just want to say I’ve been rereading Order of the Phoenix with a reading group during quarantine, and in that book in particular, but through all the books, she shows a lot of internalized misogyny. There are a lot of issues with how she presents femininity, and she reserves her comments about femininity for villains. She talks about it for Umbridge, talks about it for Parvati and Lavender… she needs to work through this, and I hope that she works through this and she finds some professional help.

Eric: Well, and let’s not forget how she deals with Umbridge – how the kids relieved Umbridge from the school – is by savage violence against Umbridge. It’s definitely ringing some bells.

Laura: Something that I would just like to bring up again, from the Scottish Gender Recognition Act, currently applicants must live, and this is from the act itself, this is the language from it, applicants must have lived in their acquired gender for a minimum of two years currently, in Scotland, before they can apply for a gender recognition certificate. The proposed change to the act would reduce that period to three months, after which they can apply for the certificate. And after their application is accepted, they would have to go through a three-month reflection period before proceeding. So the way that she’s presenting this argument, it’s as though once somebody has that gender recognition certificate, they can go into any bathroom they want, as though somebody who has the aim to assault somebody would go through a six-month period to get their certificate, and then show up at the bathroom being like, “I have my certificate now.” No, that’s not how any of this works.

Andrew: Of course not.

Eric: There’s just no evidence. There’s just no evidence of this occurring.

Andrew: Well, and the other thing is, think about these men who would want to do that. Do you think they would want to be trans people? No, so they wouldn’t take that on either. Somebody who’s transitioning doesn’t want to go through the burden of being judged and mistreated for this either. A lot of this just reminds me of the gay rights movement. LGBT, we’re all looped together, because this is not a choice. And we don’t want to go through the pain and the hurt and the prejudice that comes along with coming out, and for J.K. Rowling to act like this is an easy process is just really offensive.

Sarah: Yeah. And it’s really… I don’t want to get into the weeds of it, but it is really not easy. And it is expensive, it is time consuming, it is stressful. It’s not an easy process as it is, and so trying to make it harder is inhumane.

Micah: One of the things that stood out to me, too, was when she says, “Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people,'” and then she goes into, “Well, I have, and dot dot dot,” but it just reminds me of when people will always say, “Oh, well, just meet a few gay people, meet a few Black people, meet a few Jewish peoples,” like somehow that solves the problem. It’s not just a matter of meeting; you have to listen, you have to have conversation, you have to get… that’s the only way that you’re going to get a better understanding of what is going on.

Andrew: Yeah, she’s not listening. That’s the problem.

Micah: Right.

Sarah: It was especially clear… she ends all of this by discussing that she’s asking for empathy, and that to be extended to her and the millions of women. And many people have tried to be empathetic to her and open up dialogues, and she has blocked them on Twitter. She closed replies to this post. Her request is being granted, and she is actively avoiding it and actively shutting it down, and so that’s not what she’s asking.

Laura: Not to mention the number of LGBT affirming groups that have reached out and offered to have closed door conversations with her. She has denied those offers.

Andrew: Yeah, she doesn’t want to hear it. The last point, Sarah, you wanted to bring up.

Sarah: As we talked about already, she didn’t cite almost any sources, but there was one that she did. And so she discussed Lisa Littman, and I’m not going to get too into it. I think it’ll be in the show notes. I wrote a piece discussing, scholarly, what’s going on in her statement. But briefly, Lisa Litman wrote a paper, again in 2018, and then it was taken down and republished because of some concerns methodologically and through expertise, like expert reviewers coming in again, of what she was discussing. But she hypothesized the idea of rapid-onset gender dysphoria, which, as I discussed, has taken off like wildfire in a lot of TERF spaces. And so what rapid-onset gender dysphoria essentially is, is that teenagers are getting together and they’re all transitioning, and so it’s that “transtrender” that we might have heard before.

Andrew: Yeah. Woo! This transition party, Saturday night with the girls, let’s do it.

Sarah: Scientifically, this is not something… I mean, as a scholar, I don’t think it’s going to take off very much. There are a lot of methodological concerns. But the purpose of the study in and of itself was not to test anything; this was exploratory. And within scholarship, exploratory research is to come up with ideas for other scholars to test and to see if the hypothesis is accurate and if it stands up to rigor. And so the fact that TERFs are using this as key elements to make grand sweeping statements shows a lack of understanding of how science works, and a lack of understanding of what Lisa was trying to do in this publication. And she just has another point where she talks about a psychiatrist, I believe in his resignation letter, which, weird thing to quote is someone’s resignation letter. But she also goes back and forth several times, which is also how you can tell that she doesn’t really have a point to make. She isn’t clear in what she’s talking about. And so some of the things that she does, she discusses early on that in the UK, they have seen a 4,400% increase in trans men, which is a wild number. I wonder where she got that. So essentially, what that means is that this is a concern mostly of trans men, and then she spends this entire manifesto discussing trans women. And then she goes on to say that she believes that the majority of trans people are not a threat, and that they are also vulnerable, deserve protection. And so just doing some quick math here, I don’t know how many numbers she is talking about. She keeps making these grand accusations. But when she gets down into it, she is making it clear that she knows that she’s not talking about very many, if any at all. And so just pay attention to that as well, because that’s something that is used in a lot of transphobic arguments. Trans women, more often they’re at risk for hate crimes. Just this week, we have had two trans people of color killed in 24 hours, brutally killed; one of them was dismembered. And that also wasn’t news until four days later. Think about how wild that is. Someone was dismembered, and that wasn’t news for days. And so oftentimes when we discuss transphobia, we are discussing trans women as threats, and we are trying to ignore trans men as existing in this. And she is falling into that, even after explicitly stating a 4,400% increase in trans men in the UK.

Andrew: As you’re saying, she’s all over the place. And I’ve been thinking in the back of my head about her timing. It almost seems like she rushed out this blog post. I mean, she made those tweets Saturday night; she published this Wednesday morning, and this is over 3,000 words. Like we’ve said, there’s a lot of information in here. Part of me wonders if she’d been writing this in her head since December, so maybe she was able to punch it out quick. But it does seem like she should have taken more time to research all this, maybe provide a few more links, and maybe think this through, because as you’re saying, it is all over the place.

Laura: Well, and also, I think that when you are voicing something that you think is a problem, the onus is on you to provide a solution. There’s nothing more annoying to me than when people come to the table to complain about something, and then they have no proposal as to how they think it could be better addressed. So she’s saying, “The majority of trans people are not a threat, and they’re also vulnerable and deserve protection.” Okay, if not legal gender recognition by the government, then what? What protection are you talking about?

Eric: There was an element – I think you guys discussed on Millennial – about whether or not J.K. Rowling is salvageable, whether her views can be changed. Do we want to touch on that at all?

Andrew: I don’t think her views can be changed. She makes it very clear in this letter that she is not going to back down. I mean, she literally says that. She’s at a point in her life and her career where she is very successful; she does not need to change. Why bother? Why bother?

Sarah: And by turning down closed door conversations, I mean, this is willful ignorance at this part. She cannot claim that she just hasn’t had the opportunity. And something that I discuss with a lot of people when they’re having these kinds of conversations of activism and of social justice is really recognizing whether or not someone’s teachable and whether or not you should try to teach them, and she is holding up every sign saying that she ain’t listening. She is not teachable.

Eric: I’m glad you brought that up because I asked my therapist about this. I was bothered by J.K. Rowling’s thing. And he said that, “Well, it seems that this exclusion that J.K. Rowling is perpetuating seems to be fear-based, right? She’s telling us that she’s afraid of what’s happening to women and bathrooms. She’s afraid.” And my therapist, to his credit, said, “That’s actually a little bit more approachable or more solvable than if J.K. Rowling were approaching this from a position of nihilism or hate-based exclusion, which is fear plus the certainty that it’s right to exclude these people.”

Sarah: Yeah. I don’t think your therapist is wrong. So that goes, again, back into, I think, there’s a very clear cry for help in this manifesto. And in order to change, she needs to do some work on herself, and she needs to work through clearly some really deep trauma that she is coming to light with, and that she’s probably been sitting with and wrestling with internally for a while. And until and unless she does that work in her own therapy, no one is going to teach her. This fear is based in her needing to work through her own mental health.

Micah: It’s clear that there’s this deep personal struggle that’s going on within J.K. Rowling. Is there any validity to some of her concerns? Because I think people who are listening to this show are going to ask that question, who are going to read the letter or go on social media. Is there anything that can be taken away from what she’s saying that is actually valid?

Sarah: I mean, she wrote a lot of words, and so probably a little, but not whole points. She never makes a full statement that is correct. And so she has glimmers of other arguments or other things that she could suppose, and so for example, one thing that is potentially an idea that can flourish is the idea of the lived experience of being socialized as female, and that being a reality, and so having safe spaces, having women-only spaces. But that is not something that is as she is wording it, because I have to convince trans women that I work with that they are allowed to go into all-women’s spaces. They know that you don’t want them there, and so trans people are notorious in many ways to be catering to cis feelings. And they do that sometimes unintentionally, I believe, just again, because of internalized transphobia and how the world is operating. But also because of fear. They are so at risk of violence; they are so disproportionately at risk for hate crimes, that they are very observant of their surroundings. And so they do not approach things if it is going to be harmful to them. And so, yes, there is some need sometimes; I can see for there to be spaces for people who are socialized as female to be able to get together, but there are also ways around that that aren’t just ignoring trans people or saying that trans people are taking up too much space. It is we don’t socialize our children in a gendered way. If we, again, worked with feminism and tried to tackle the system of the patriarchy, we wouldn’t need those safe spaces in those ways.

Micah: Yeah, the second part of that question was, we talked a lot about rushing to judgment at the top of the show; a lot of people think that that’s what we’re doing. But in terms of flipping to the other side of the coin, and people who will just go and say, “#IStandWithJKR,” right? We’ve gotten emails about that; we’ve seen tweets about that. What does that mean? And why should people be careful about just jumping to that conclusion?

Sarah: Yeah. When you say that you stand with JKR, again, if you are supporting this opinion, what does that actually mean? What it means is…

Micah: It’s not supporting Harry Potter.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s not supporting Harry Potter. But it also means that this becomes a louder voice, it becomes more of a political voice, and it leads to this gender act that we’re seeing in the UK. It leads to what we are now seeing in the US. It leads to discrimination in mental healthcare and in medical spaces. It has ripple effects. And so I think that it’s important for people to understand the consequences of opinions. And like Laura said at the beginning, yeah, we have freedom of speech and you’re allowed to have opinions, but that doesn’t mean that you are allowed to shout “Fire” in a crowded theater. It doesn’t mean that you are free from people criticizing your opinions. And the reason why people are so quick – and experts are also so quick – people who work in these spaces are so quick to shut this down is because they have huge lasting impacts. The bills that we are setting place will last for generations. These are fights that will kill people and have killed people, and you cannot deny those facts. And so we can all have different emotions with J.K. Rowling; we obviously have connections to Harry Potter. When it comes down to it – and I’m saying this as a huge Harry Potter fan – Harry Potter is a story and it is something that we enjoy. My interest in it will never override people’s livelihoods and people’s safety. And that is what J.K. Rowling is doing now.

Eric: Sarah, while we still have you here, we have the perk of I guess listening to some comments, or responding to some comments that we got live. My final question for you, really, is just why is it important that women and so-called natal girls do not fear trans women?

Sarah: Trans women are doing exactly what we think cis women are when we frame the arguments of “Cis women should be allowed to exist in the world without threat of violence from men.” But being allowed to walk alone at night, not put your keys between your fingers ready to attack someone if they’re coming to you, that is what trans women are also experiencing. And that’s why y’all have the same fight. And trans women, as I said before, are so at risk and are so persecuted. A lot of the time, it is very real that this threat of violence is happening against cis woman, and no one is denouncing that, no one is saying that that isn’t happening. That is happening. But that is happening astronomically more often to trans women. This year we’ve already seen… well, the number is higher now. When I was on Millennial I said 12 trans people; I think we’re now at 15 trans people that were killed in 2020, half of which, I should remind people, we were supposed to be staying in our houses. And last year there were I think 26 trans women or trans people that were killed and 21 were trans woman. And so this is a disproportionate issue to trans women and it is keeping them safe, and they are not violent. They are not a threat to you. They are seeking the same solace and protection that J.K. Rowling is hoping to give cis women.

Andrew: So one final thing before we discuss what we’re going to be doing going forward: WB issued a statement, and this was the worst statement of all, but this is what happens when Warner Bros. still has three movies, maybe a TV series, maybe other movies in the pipeline with J.K. Rowling. They don’t want to piss her off. So they issued their statement, and it says, “The events of the last several weeks have firmed our resolve as a company to confront difficult societal issues. Warner Bros.’ position on inclusiveness is well established, and fostering a diverse and inclusive culture has never been more important to our company and to our audiences around the world. We deeply value the work of our storytellers who give so much of themselves in sharing their creations with us all. We recognize our responsibility to foster empathy and advocate understanding of all communities and all people, particularly those we work with and those we reach through our content.” So they don’t address J.K. Rowling. They don’t say anything. [laughs]

Laura: They don’t take a position.

Micah: Well, in all honesty, I mean, this could easily have been a statement that they released around recent events that have been going on in our country. They just changed a couple of words.

Andrew: Yeah, it could be anything. [laughs] But as I tweeted, this is what it looks like when you don’t want to piss off the woman who is responsible for an obscene amount of your profits. They can’t lose her. They need her. But they had to say something; it’s just a whole lot of nothing.

Laura: Something else I just wanted to plug before we move on to what MuggleCast is going to look like in the future – thanks again to Anna for sending this in – for Scottish listeners who want to support the Gender Recognition Act, you can head over to LGBTyouth.org.uk to find an email template and a list of your members of Scottish Parliament to contact in support of the act.

Andrew: So what are we going to do going forward? And we’re bringing this up because a lot of people, like I said, have been very hurt by J.K. Rowling’s comments, and they feel they are done with her. MuggleCast has always been an escape for people, just like Harry Potter has been, and we would never want to end the show. We want to continue providing an escape for people. We genuinely enjoy doing this, working together, talking about Harry Potter and the lessons and all the intricacies of the series. So that said, we are going to be making a few changes, because we don’t feel like we can support J.K. Rowling in the way that we have before. And we’ve heard from some people who have said, “You guys are actually too late on this. You should have started treating her differently sooner.” And to those people, I say now, I think you’re right. I don’t think we were thinking as clearly as we should have been months ago or even years ago, because there have been a lot of problematic stances from J.K. Rowling in the past couple of years. And also, people are looking at her books again, and thinking back to some problematic views, which maybe we can address at another time.

Micah: We’ve also heard from people who said that we should be eternally grateful…

Andrew: We are!

Micah: … and give all praise to J.K. Rowling. And we are, 100%.

Andrew: But we don’t need to suck up to her every time we criticize her.

Micah: Exactly.

Andrew: That’s the crazy part. Some people are like, “I haven’t heard a thank you out of you while criticizing J.K. Rowling.” We need to do that every time? No, we don’t!

Sarah: I mean, it’s 2020. We all have a problematic phase. We’re all learning how all these things that we love were created by people to varying degrees of disappointment to us. And I think loving a thing does not ever have to mean just ignoring parts of it that are wrong. To love something is to treat it seriously and critically, and there are lots of spaces. I mean, when I first fell in love with MuggleCast, that was one of the reasons. I loved how much this show treated this work like it mattered. And if we’re going to treat it like it matters, I think that that also means that we have to discuss some of these things that we might not like and that might not be the most positive light shone on it.

Andrew: So here are a few of the changes that we’re going to be making. First of all, we are no longer going to be speaking about J.K. Rowling’s projects outside of the wizarding world. We don’t feel comfortable promoting her forthcoming work; that includes Cormoran Strike, the Ichabog, and whatever else she may create. We are also no longer going to talk about what J.K. Rowling is saying on Twitter. If she’s hurting fans again, we might bring it up. But like I said at the top of the show, this is the last time we’re going to be discussing what she has to say on this issue in particular in such detail, because we know now – it is abundantly clear – where she stands. And we don’t need to keep talking in circles about why we feel she’s wrong. But this also is applied to everything else that she says on Twitter; we don’t need to talk about it anymore. But we are a Harry Potter podcast and we will continue to cover wizarding world-related announcements and continue to review various elements – I’m thinking video games, I’m thinking theme park – but we’re going to avoid discussing JKR’s involvement in it, if any. And by that I mean we will clarify whether or not something is canon or not, because that’s important, but we’re not going to be talking about it in a way that praises J.K. Rowling. And then finally, we’re going to strive to highlight fan initiatives more and talk more about the fandom. The fandom is what has made Harry Potter so great. J.K. Rowling wrote the stories, but then we all met each other, we all started hanging out together, we celebrated Harry Potter together. J.K. Rowling did not create the fandom. We did. So we’re going to be focusing more on fan creations and the fandom and the people who have made this community so, so great. So those are some of the changes we’re going to be making; there might be more adjustments in the future. And then the final point I’ll bring up here is that we have made a donation to Trans Lifeline. This was brought up earlier. You can find them at TransLifeline.org. This is a trans-led organization that connects trans people to the community, support, and resources that they need to survive and thrive, and this is something right now that is so important as they face backlash from people like J.K. Rowling, from people in the US government, so we’ve made a $700 donation to them and we encourage you to donate if you can. Again, that’s TransLifeline.org.

Micah: Dan Radcliffe’s response or part of his response ties really nicely and really echoes our sentiments as a podcast. He said, “To all the people who now feel their experience of the books has been tarnished or diminished, I am deeply sorry for the pain these comments have caused you. I really hope that you don’t entirely lose what was valuable in these stories to you. If these books taught you that love is the strongest force in the universe, capable of overcoming anything; if they taught you that strength is found in diversity, and that dogmatic ideas of pureness lead to the oppression of vulnerable groups; if you believe that a particular character is trans, nonbinary, or gender fluid, or that they are gay, or bisexual; if you found anything in the stories that resonated with you and helped you at any time in your life – then that is between you and the book that you read, and it is sacred. And in my opinion nobody can touch that. It means to you what it means to you and I hope that these comments will not taint that too much.”

Laura: With that in mind, as we close out here, I thought that we could just touch on the idea that it’s okay to feel lots of different emotions surrounding this. I feel like when you look at the Internet, you’re seeing the far ends of reactions, and it could be very easy to walk away from this with the interpretation that people who disagree with J.K. Rowling hate her and want to burn her books, and the people who agree with her are just accepting everything that she says at face value. I don’t think that those encapsulate the entirety of the emotional response to this. I know for me, personally, it’s been this ball of emotions that have just been building inside of me for the last few days. And it’s disappointment and resentment, and a little bit of guilt, and just a whole bunch of stuff, and that’s okay. It’s important to talk about it. And it’s important that we sit with this and we really think about this critically as we move forward analyzing the books that we care so much about.

Sarah: I want to briefly say – because I do have to hop off in a couple of minutes – and so I’ve been seeing a lot of things on Twitter about how she raised us to fight against her now, and that is very true and a lot of work, a lot of work in educating yourself. A lot of work and allyship is sitting in discomfort and making yourself understand the complexity of situations. It doesn’t have to come easy. A lot of this shouldn’t come easy. And I feel like for myself, Harry Potter… a lot of the hosts here can say they knew me when I was young, and they knew me just as a Harry Potter fan, and Harry Potter shaped a lot of my goals. It shaped a lot of my scholarship. I talk about quotes in my practice. I think I even have some Harry Potter artwork in my office; I know that I have a ton of it in my house. This is something that is still greatly a part of my life, and it is greatly a part of my life because it taught lessons that apparently J.K. Rowling didn’t necessarily mean to teach, or meant it at the time and then forgot she meant it. I don’t quite know what it is, but we have to make the choice between what is right and what is easy right now. And what is easy is to simplify that Harry Potter is J.K. Rowling and J.K. Rowling has to be good because Harry Potter is good. And what is right is recognizing we love Harry Potter because it’s a deep story. It’s a complex story. It roots for the underdog. It says that we can fight for what is right and fight against oppressive systems that are trying to intentionally hurt people. In the series we see how it is hurting Muggle-borns, it is hurting other magical beasts, and in the real world, it is hurting marginalized folk. It is hurting people of color. It is hurting trans people. It is hurting queer people. And I know that it is my love for Harry Potter and my continued love for Harry Potter that is making me say this and that is making me know that J.K. Rowling is wrong. And I can hold both thoughts in my head that J.K. Rowling is wrong, and that Harry Potter is still good, and Harry Potter is still something that is worth exploring and seeing the lessons within it.

Andrew: I have never been so sure of a clip to use on social media.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Dr. Sarah Steelman, thank you so much. You are a licensed marriage and family therapist out of Vegas specializing in LGBTQ+ affirmative practices. Thank you so much for joining us on today’s episode. You are wonderful.

Micah: Yes.

Laura: Thank you, thank you.

Andrew: You remind us of this every time we speak to you.

Sarah: Thank you all for having me on. It’s very important that we talk to experts, as Dan Radcliffe said, and so I was very happy to be here. And like I said, I did write a piece on this, and if anyone wants to chat with me, the hosts know my contact, and so this conversation doesn’t have to end now. I’m part of the fandom. You can find me online if you need any help.

Andrew: Yeah, we will link to your social media and your Medium article in our show notes today. Bye, Sarah, have a good weekend.

Sarah: Bye.

Laura: Take care.

Andrew: To start wrapping things up here, anymore comments, guys, on how we’re going to treat Harry Potter and J.K. Rowling going forward, or where we go from here as fans?

Eric: I’m just disappointed because there seemed to have been a real opportunity to, I don’t know, level with people instead of doing very misdirecting manipulative things. And our author, our queen, has not taken that route of providing a singular argument, and has just rambled and caused and spread the very fear that we see being enacted in social policies in governments across the world now. So I just want to… me, leaving things, just saying I’m disappointed that this has occurred. That I think Jo somewhere in there is smart enough to not have done this, and I’m just really bummed out. I’m going to read the books as often as I would normally or discuss them as often as I would normally, but I’m really at the point where I’m looking for different voices, diverse voices, diverse artists and authors to support, because I feel like I’ve spent so much of my life… it wasn’t a lie, it wasn’t wasted, but I’ve spent a lot of life supporting people whose views I now know to be problematic. And I wish I could throw some money towards people that actually need it.

Laura: I would like to part by saying that everyone, all of us here, all of you at home, your relationship to Harry Potter and the wizarding world is yours, and it is up to you what that looks like, and what makes you comfortable. This, what we talked about today, we certainly feel very strongly about this. But at the same time, we’re not saying that you should not have a relationship with J.K. Rowling’s work that makes you comfortable. So we’re not going to judge anybody if they decide they want to continue, for example, reading future works that J.K. Rowling puts out; that’s a very personal choice. We just hope that as you continue your journey, that this is a point of view that you keep in mind.

Micah: That’s a great point. And for me – I know I touched on this earlier – but there’s a lot to be said for the educational piece of this. And I think Sarah hit it right on the head when she was talking about sometimes being an ally and learning new things is uncomfortable, and it should be. And I think that what we’re talking about right now may even be more uncomfortable for people because, especially here in the United States, it’s already layered on societal issues that are going on where people are uncomfortable, and they’re realizing that there’s been a lot of social injustice that has gone on in this country for quite a period of time. And I think, in a way, it’s an awakening for a lot of people to realize that they don’t know what they don’t know. And it’s time to sit down and have conversations and learn in order for us to be able to move forward.

Andrew: The last point I want to make is in the show notes, we’re going to link to a thread by somebody on Twitter named Andrew James Carter, who broke down J.K. Rowling’s blog post point by point, and why I want to share it is because he actually used evidence and facts and shared a lot of data, unlike J.K. Rowling. And I think it’s important to read that because you’ll understand that unlike J.K. Rowling, Andrew James Carter put a lot of thought into his response to J.K. Rowling. And I think it’s important to get the full picture and he provides that, so we’ll include a link in the show notes as well. Next week, we won’t talk about this; we will return to Chapter by Chapter and celebrate the Harry Potter fandom as we always do. And if you have any feedback about today’s discussion, of course, we would love to hear it, no matter which side you are on. You can email MuggleCast@gmail.com or use the contact form on MuggleCast.com. And then, of course, you can send us a voice memo or you can use the voicemail line 1-920-3-MUGGLE. That’s 1-920-368-4453.

Micah: Chapter 32, “Out of the Fire,” which would have been an appropriate title for this episode, too, I think.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: We’ll finally get back to that Umbridge suck count, and hopefully cross 100.

Micah: I think I pushed it across the 100 mark, not to tease ahead to next week…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but I was working on that chapter analysis before this all went down.

Andrew: Came up, yeah. Okay. Cool.

Micah: She sucks a lot in the next chapter.

Laura: Yeah, we can definitely accomplish 100, bare minimum.

Andrew: [laughs] All right, thank you, everybody, for listening. We appreciate it. And to those who have been skeptical of the outrage, if you’ve made it this far into the episode, we appreciate you too. We know this is a hard conversation to be had. But we felt very strongly about this, and this is why we’ve spent nearly two hours in today’s episode talking about this, and we hope some people’s minds have been changed. If not, that’s okay. We still respect you and love you. Thanks, everybody, for listening. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Laura: Take care, y’all.

Transcript #468

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #468, Rubeus Hagrid’s Punch Out! (OOTP 31, O.W.L.S.)


Show Intro


Andrew: Welcome to MuggleCast. Before we get started with today’s episode, we wanted to share an email from Mahira, which captures the current events of the last week and how it relates to the story that we love so much.

Micah: She says,

“One of the joys of rereading Harry Potter is how both we and our world change each time we reread the books. It was interesting listening to last week’s chapter with Hogwarts’s rebellion against Umbridge during a week where protesters demanding justice for George Floyd, Breanna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, and the countless others who have been the victims of police brutality against Black people in the United States.

I think this chapter (and other parts of Order of the Phoenix) demonstrates many of the types of protest we’ve been seeing this week. In the United States we’ve seen everything from peaceful protests to targeted destruction of property (e.g., the Minnesota Police Station… I’d compare that to the Weasley twins), book clubs/sharing resources for learning about the history of racism against people of color (Dumbledore’s Army?), donating to bail funds for those arrested while protesting (McGonagall helping Peeves), full-on destruction (Peeves), violence against police (attacking the Inquisitorial Squad), direct interference with oppression (the Niffler in Umbridge’s office), and even facing arrests and punishment for standing up against injustice (e.g. the four successive classes of students in detention).

Obviously, these aren’t perfect connections, and I do not want to minimize the nuances of systemic racism in the US. However, I think this chapter speaks to how rule-breaking, deviance, and refusing to participate is often justified when the deviance is against an unfair system. As someone with both rule-following tendencies and social justice orientation of Hermione Granger, I think this chapter points to times when we should no longer comply with injustice and the many ways we can stand up. There have been plenty of pieces by Black activists on philosophies of protest for civil rights (Martin Luther King Jr.’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail is maybe my favorite starting point) that better articulate how we can recognize and stand up for what is right. However, as someone who grew up with Harry Potter, there is something comforting in finding examples in my favorite series.”

Eric: Thank you, Mahira.

Laura: Yeah, thank you so much for that. We wanted to take a moment to make some space here on the show to recognize what has happened to people like George Floyd, Breanna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, and countless others, and say that we stand against white supremacy, and there is no place for it in this show community. And we’re very, very encouraging of our base to take advantage of the resources and educate yourselves; we’ll provide some of that in our show notes. Some of it has been up on our social channels this past week; you can definitely find it in this week’s show notes.

Eric: Damn straight.

Laura: Yep.

Eric: No, I mean it, really. And that’s to break the tension, but honestly, it’s true. We all believe that. We feel that way.

Andrew: Black lives matter.

Eric: Black lives matter!

Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Also, we wanted to let everybody know that we recorded this episode prior to J.K. Rowling tweeting about trans people again. We find her latest comments transphobic and hurtful to the LGBT community, and they came at the worst possible time for a variety of reasons. We will be addressing what she said on next week’s episode.

[Show music plays]

Andrew: So welcome to MuggleCast, and on today’s episode of the show, we will be discussing Chapter 31 of Order of the Phoenix, “O.W.L.s.” Are we saying it that way? Or are we just going to say OWLs?

Eric: I like O.W.L.s; I really do.

Andrew: Okay, sure.

Micah: You have to say it like Umbridge, though, in the movie.

Eric: [imitating Umbridge] “Ordinary Wizarding Levels. OWLs!”

[Andrew and Laura laughs]

Laura: Oh my God. Please don’t.

Andrew: I’ve been meaning to say, Eric, your impersonation of Umbridge was very, very good.

Eric: Oh, thank you. It was very well received. I can’t remember the last time I got so many emails about a particular thing that I said on the show.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Wow, look at that.

Andrew: This is Eric’s acting chops coming in.

Micah: This was positive feedback, too, it sounds like.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, I’m going to have to go on tour as an Umbridge impersonator.

Andrew: You’re making Umbridge likable. I almost said great again, but likable.

Eric: I feel a little uncomfortable. But it was positive feedback, and I really liked… we should do more of those read-alongs where all of us pitch in for big scenes.

Laura: I agree.

Andrew: Ah, that was a great idea on my part.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Speaking of that…


News


Andrew: Anyway, so let’s look at the latest chapter readings over at WizardingWorld.com, speaking of readings. The latest ones are Whoopi Goldberg… Micah, your mom was right.

Micah: Yeah, how about that?

Andrew: And then the next chapter was read by Fantastic Beasts stars Dan Fogler and Alison Sudol, and of course, they play Jacob and Queenie in the Fantastic Beasts movies. They should have been on the set right now…

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Andrew: … but instead they’re in quarantine like everybody else, and now they’re rereading a book from 20 years ago.

Eric: Seeing them, I actually feel like I’m really starting to miss that film franchise. I feel like right about now is the time when I would want to be getting that first teaser of completed footage and really starting to get excited about a third entry in the franchise.

Andrew: Yeah, I was thinking about that, too, because when they start filming, they might share some more details about the plot or maybe the title. And we’re going to have to wait a little while longer, though my understanding is they have gotten approval… I saw a news report they’ve gotten approval to start, or they’ve laid their guidelines out for how they’re going to film safely, and they’ve been approved by the government.

Laura: Ooh.

Micah: I know there’s a big focus for Fantastic Beasts 3 taking place in Rio, but I’m sure people have been following the news; Brazil has skyrocketed in its number of cases of Coronavirus, so I wonder how that is going to impact filming if, in fact, they plan to do anything on location.

Andrew: That’s a really good point. I bet they would cancel their shooting over there. I mean, they may try to keep all filming at Leavesden in light of Coronavirus. How about they just rewrite Fantastic Beasts 3 again, use all those Harry Potter sets that are over in the Studio Tour…

Eric: Yeah, why don’t we just get a closeup of Hogwarts the whole movie? It’s just all set at Hogwarts, and it’s Dumbledore and Newt picking up on their conversation from directly when the second one ended. Dumbledore tells all.

Micah: I just wanted to go off something that was said about seeing Dan Fogler and Alison Sudol. I think the other piece of this is we didn’t know what to expect when a new franchise was created, but I think you can tell the passion with which these actors and actresses talk about and read the Harry Potter series; even Eddie Redmayne when he did his chapter. But if folks haven’t gone and listened to any chapters yet, I highly recommend this chapter with Dan Fogler and Alison Sudol. I know we were talking about it during the week, but Dan Fogler, the voices that he adds to every character…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: He really gets into it. He is a modern day Jim Dale or Stephen Fry. He really embodies all of it.

Andrew: Wow.

Micah: Even his Madame Hooch. He’s into it the entire time.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Better than Whoopi?

Micah: Yeah, sorry. 100%, I would say, just completely committed to the characters. And there’s a couple of Gillywater moments too, which are funny.

Andrew: Oh, cool.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, you mentioned Coronavirus, and right before starting recording this week’s episode of MuggleCast, I was on WizardingWorld.com and I also just noticed this, so I thought I would mention it: There are going to be officially licensed Harry Potter face coverings, face masks, coming I guess sometime this summer. I guess it’s not too much of a surprise. And speaking of things reopening, Universal Orlando is starting to reopen, and of course, that’s where the Wizarding World of Harry Potter is, and face masks are going to be required. So I wonder if they’re going to try to sell these at the parks, and if so, they’re going to be hot sellers. But they need a little hole in it to sip your butterbeer through, though I guess that would defeat the purpose.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, they’ve definitely done… on the soft open I saw at Universal, the frog chorus and the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students all have masks now as part of their…

Andrew: What?!

Eric: Yes, as part of their uniforms.

[Andrew hums a muffled “Double Trouble”]

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: They must sound awful! Do the frogs have face masks?

Eric: I’m not sure.

Micah: It actually sounds better, Andrew.

Andrew: [laughs] Does Hagrid have a face mask on Hagrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure?

Eric: I don’t think everyone does. But it was interesting; there were photos that came out of the Durmstrang and Beauxbatons. Beauxbatons are wearing mostly an entire head scarf, and it’s black, not blue, so I feel like it’s probably the first generation of what we’re seeing.

Micah: Eric, what about your dance partner, Celestina Warbeck?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: She famously refuses to wear a mask. She’s such a diva.

Andrew: Ah, what a diva.

Eric: Somebody did say that she did not have a mask on.

Laura: Oh my gosh.

Andrew: Does the Blast-Ended Skrewt’s you-know-what have a face covering?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: That could have used the face covering way before Coronavirus.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: Oh my gosh. They should absolutely put a giant mask on that thing’s butt.

Laura: That would be hilarious. I really feel strongly that they should.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I wonder, too, if they had legitimate discussions about if they could create the Bubble-Head Charm and utilize that on people as a way of…

Andrew: Legitimate discussions? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, in place of masks. Could they come up with something that would have looked consistent with the Potter series, but would still protect the people who are working there?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: They would have got giant fish bowls and put them on staff.

Andrew: Yeah. That’s an interesting idea, though.

Eric: Kind of like breathing into a plastic bag. [laughs] Wouldn’t want to do it for too long.

Andrew: Right, yeah. Little dangerous.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I will just note that the companies partnering with Wizarding World have committed to making a variety of donations to charities actively supporting first responders, underserved communities, and others impacted by the spread of COVID-19.

Eric: So I was suggesting… I thought you were going to say at first that this was the first perk of Wizarding World Gold, of being a member, is you’re going to get a face mask sent to you.

Andrew: [laughs] No.

Eric: Okay.

Andrew: It should be. I mean, I haven’t used…

Eric: Yeah, what’s been going on over there?

Andrew: Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Eric: All right.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: All right, we have an email now. This is from Sophie.

“Just listened to your latest episode and thought it was funny that punting means something different for British and American, because punting means something even more different here in Australia! It means gambling (or betting) on something, particularly in sports such as football or horse racing. So reading the books here it sounds like Filch is betting on students who will make it across the swamp or not! I did know the British term, however, as I actually went ‘punting’ around Cambridge on a holiday once, so I could self-translate. Who would have thought there were so many meanings to one word?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, that’s crazy.

Laura: I think I like the Australian reading of this best of all.

Andrew: Betting?

Laura: Yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: This might be the most confusing scene worldwide in the Harry Potter books. Nobody knows what’s happening.

Eric: [laughs] It’s all lost in translation.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: It’d be… it actually sounds like the Australian definition would be something that Fred and George would actually do, not Filch. Bet on students who can actually make it across the swamp. Tie a whole thing into it.

Andrew: True.

Eric: Yeah, that could be a point of connection between the twins and Filch. They’re all betting men.

Andrew: Well, before we get to Chapter by Chapter, this week’s episode of MuggleCast is sponsored by an app that can greatly improve your life; it’s BeachBody on Demand.

[Ad break]


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: Okay, and let’s move on to Chapter by Chapter now, and we will start, as always, with our Seven-Word Summary.

Eric: It’s been a while since I’ve had to start one of these things.

Andrew: Uh-oh.

Laura: Pressure’s on.

Andrew: Don’t say Harry. Don’t say Harry. Don’t say Harry.

Eric: Exams…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Micah: … can…

Laura: … cause…

Andrew: … severe…

Eric: … headaches…

Micah: … and…

Laura: … visions.

Andrew: Perfect!

Laura: Woo!

Micah: Nice.

Andrew: If everybody doesn’t give us an A++ for that, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Laura: Yeah. That was outstanding, y’all.

Eric: I’m quite proud of that, actually.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There was not even one mention of a Harry Potter character in that, so think about how much restraint that takes.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: All right, exams are here. It actually fits quite well because we’re in the month of June.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Micah: And normally I feel like right now a lot of students would be – if not for Coronavirus – sitting their final exams. But we’ll get to that in a little bit. The chapter starts out with a little bit of tough news for Ron, but Ron is able to get over it pretty quickly, and that is that Harry and Hermione, they weren’t at the Quidditch match. They didn’t see him win the cup for Gryffindor. And yeah, it’s a little heartbreaking for Ron at first, but he is able to quickly get over it, because Harry and Hermione have this story about Grawp.

Eric: Yeah, Ron’s victory has really emboldened him, or it’s just kind of set him straight. He has spent most of the book really down on his wits and happiness because of his failure to really win at Quidditch, but now that he’s done it, it really feels like he’s a new man, and his first order is to completely forgive Hermione and Harry for leaving the match just because… and he gets immediately invested in the story of Grawp and is equally outraged as they are when the story is finished. And there’s a couple examples I’ll touch on later of Ron behaving almost not Ron-like, because he’s super zen. He was the MVP last week that I gave to him, and I just say, Ron, great job at defending the goals.

Andrew: [laughs] I would be really bummed if I were Ron, because of course, this was his big moment, and his best friends weren’t there to see it. I wouldn’t care about this Grawp story, I don’t think.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I would care, but I would still be bummed. It wouldn’t cancel out my bummed-ness over them missing it.

Laura: Right, and they’ve let him go on for days about the match under the assumption that they were there.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: That’s kind of embarrassing.

Andrew: “Yeah, Ron, that was such a great save.”

Eric: Well, they’re the least two people that would need to have seen it to believe it, right?

Andrew: True.

Eric: They always support Ron. I think it helps that the whole darn school saw it, besides Harry and Hermione.

Andrew: It’s too bad cameras don’t capture these games like games would be captured in the real world.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: I mean, even in high school, they’re typically filmed by the AV Club. But of course, that can’t happen here in the wizarding world. Maybe now it does, so Ron’s friends don’t miss any more of his matches.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It does set him up well for the future, and does give him that boost of confidence. Even if it’s only for this short period of time, it’s nice to see Ron with a little bit of confidence, because we’re so used to him feeling sorry for himself in a lot of ways.

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

Eric: But he’s able to be so objective with all of this stuff. He says to them after they tell the story of Grawp, he says, “Have we ever come off better from mixing with one of Hagrid’s monster mates? Remember Norbert? Remember Aragog?” Here’s Ron laying down the smackdown of “We’ve never enriched ourselves or come off better by dealing with Hagrid’s messes. Why should we start now?” And I think it…

Andrew: That was a genius observation.

Eric: Absolutely.

Micah: It sounds like one we made on last week’s episode, so I don’t know; maybe Ron listens to the show.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It makes you wonder, what if Ron said that to Hagrid? What would Hagrid have said?

Micah: Ooh. Maybe Ron is responsible for what happens at the end of the chapter, because he’s angry that Hagrid took Harry and Hermione away from the Quidditch match.

Andrew: [laughs] “Grawp is different, Ron. Don’t worry; nothing will go wrong.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: One interesting observation that’s made by Harry in the beginning of this chapter, when Ron is going through and really just talking Quidditch, right? He’s explaining how strategically he went about doing what he did, and they’re out there by the lake, sitting under the beech tree. And it’s really a throwback to James, and Harry is able, for a very brief moment, just to kind of enjoy it, watching Ron as if he was watching his dad.

Eric: [laughs] That is an interesting turning point in the Harry internal debate evolution between him and who his father was, to be able to look at Ron and be like, “Oh, he’s being very James-like right now,” and not being upset about it.

Andrew: It was sad to see, though. It just reminded Harry of his father, of that memory he experienced, and it was also kind of beautiful, because Ron was feeling as confident as James did back in the day.

Eric: I’ve got to say, they’ve got to plant more trees at Hogwarts, because this is the one beech tree that…

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I mean, this is the same beech tree that was there in the ’70s that James was under. There’s no other beech tree. Every time they go out on the Hogwarts grounds, they’re always under the beech tree. There’s surely a line of people waiting to sit under this tree in the shade.

Micah: Right, and the only other tree that’s there will try and attack you.

Eric: [laughs] Exactly. We need more peaceful trees at Hogwarts.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Shade nightmare. No shade available.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: It’s just like the Wizarding World in Orlando. There’s no shade there. At Diagon Alley there is, but not the other one.

Eric: There’s probably a Shield Charm for the skin, I would say.

Micah: I was going to say, you need to go to Knockturn Alley if you want some air conditioning down in Orlando.

Eric: [laughs] I’m sure that’s true in the books as well.

Micah: But Harry does make use of everything that’s going on to notice that nobody has really pursued Snape teaching him Occlumency, and remember, this is something that Remus and Sirius talked with him about, and Hermione has been consistently nagging him about over the course of the last few chapters since Snape has stopped lessons with him. And yeah, this is not good given what happens at the end of this chapter.

Eric: Yeah, but Harry is like, “Oh, I can skate by. Nobody’s paying attention to me and my Occlumency that I’m supposed to be having.” It’s kind of a shame, but I think we’ve really all been there, especially as a teenager; when you have just slightly too much on your plate, you’re able to skate by in inaction and kind of bask in other people being distracted.

Micah: Absolutely. I couldn’t imagine Harry, even if he was taking lessons with Snape and progressing, focusing on Occlumency with all the exams that he has currently in front of him. And look at Hermione; she’s a mess throughout this chapter.

Eric: Poor her. But it’s true, if he’s supposed to empty his mind before every lesson, how are you going to do that when this is the time of year when you really have to retain information and regurgitate and do all this stuff with your head? It just… Harry wasn’t good at it to begin with; he’s not going to be good at it now during exam season.

Laura: Yep, it’s really the perfect storm.

Micah: Well, before we get to talking about the exams themselves, we do get a little bit of career advice from Draco Malfoy…

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Oh, perfect.

Micah: … when he says, “You know what? At the end of the day, these tests, they don’t really matter. It’s not what you know; it’s who you know.” And I just have visions of corporate nepotism and other things pop up when I heard this, because I do think there is something to that. And I think there’s a reason why J.K. Rowling included it in the story, and particularly that it comes from Draco with his father and his influence at the Ministry.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Maybe Lucius is buying Draco a cushy seat somewhere with all that gold.

Andrew: Well, and it also reminds me of what’s been going on recently with this college admissions scandal with Aunt Becky and a bunch of other celebrities bribing schools to get their kids into college. [laughs] It’s awful.

Eric: Well, and there’s also something Dudley-ish about it. Draco is like, “Oh, we’ve had Griselda Marchbanks over for tea. She and Father are real close.” Like, oh, come on, man.

Laura: And then Neville is like, “I don’t think that’s true.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: He totally calls fake news on that moment.

Eric: He does, he does. And Ron, with ever the worldview, is like, “There’s nothing we can do about it if it is true,” to Harry, when he’s like, “Is Draco really cheating his way to the top?” Ron is just so peaceful right now that he’s won. He’s still riding the high of his victory, and nothing can perturb him.

Micah: Yeah, it’s quite a moment, because I think that we probably can all identify at least one person that, whether it was college, whether it’s been at the office where we work, where we know somebody who is there not necessarily because of the work that he or she has done to get there, but because of just who they are. I know that you deal with that all the time, Andrew, with Brooklyn.

Andrew: [laughs] I was trying to come up with a joke about one of you three, but I couldn’t.

Laura: Yeah, because we’ve all worked really hard to get where we are, and Andrew is like, “Ugh, I can’t undermine them.”

Andrew: There’s no jokes here.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: I think some very real topics not just in this chapter come up, but in this book, right? And that’s why it is so interesting to be having this conversation about education and some of the things that happen at the end of this chapter, given both current events, but also just the fact that we’re adults, and so we see this all through a different perspective than we did when we first read Order of the Phoenix.

Laura: Yeah, I definitely distinctly remember – especially when I was in grad school – you recognized who was there based on their academic work, and who was there because of money, right?

Micah: Totally.

Laura: And those differences very much stand out. I’m sure, Micah, you probably had something similar in your own program. Yeah, it’s discouraging, though, because you’re like, “Education should be here for the betterment of people,” and instead, you have some portion of the population that’s very privileged financially and is able to buy their way through in order to pad their resume, and I think that’s what Draco represents here.

Micah: I’ve always wondered if Draco is a good student, though. I know in this moment it seems like there’s a bit of nepotism going on, but I wonder how good his grades actually are.

Eric: I feel like somewhere recently we read that they were near Hermione-esque levels. Even though Lucius gives Draco a run for his money, Draco’s grades, I think, are pretty good. I can’t remember where I heard that, but I really think that he’s actually getting good grades in school despite being a total prat.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve gotten the impression he values a good education.

Eric: Yeah, I think this is just bluster, and it’s the kind of thing we tell ourselves as well, like, “Oh, it’ll be okay; this is not that pressing,” when in fact, internally, we’re freaking out about it.

Micah: Yeah, well, I wonder how would we react to taking two straight weeks of standardized testing?

Andrew: Sounds terrible!

Micah: I know, right? I remember back to… at least in New York state, we had Regents Exams. I’m not sure what they’re called in other states, or if there’s standardized testing that are put forth by the state. But there was always a lot of pressure going into these exams, because they were determining your future, right? They were going to have an impact on whether or not you got into a college, and if you did, what college were you going to get into. And it also makes me think a lot about the PSATs and the SATs, which I know are more universal across the US, so I would just be curious to hear others’ experiences.

Laura: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I grew up in a few different states, but no matter where you went, standardized testing was the law of the land. And in a couple of cases, like in Texas and Georgia, if you did poorly enough on your yearly standardized test, it could hold you back. In some cases, when you took those exams, it was just for state funding, which is a whole other conversation…

[Eric laughs]

Laura: … but there were some cases where it actually determined whether or not you were able to go on to the next grade. So if you came in and you had a bad day taking this standardized test, it could completely impact your entire next year of schooling.

Eric: In Pennsylvania they were called the PSSAs, and I remember doing them… I think they were successive mornings in the week, but I do remember we had enough prep that we would come into school, the first couple periods of the day would be devoted to testing in the cafeteria, and then we’d go about our days. But I feel like, if I can remember how I felt during this testing, I felt invigorated to… because all the studying that I was ever going to do was done, and then it was like, “Here’s just where you sit down and show us what you know.”

Andrew: Right.

Eric: You just get rid of your knowledge, and I kind of liked that. And of course, the knowledge escaped my brain, went onto the paper, and never came back.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Right. Yeah, that’s what happens. You cram, and then you do well, hopefully, and then you forget all this information.

Laura: Yeah, so it’s like… I mean, we could have a whole episode talking about the effectiveness of standardized testing, but one thing that I would like to highlight here that I think is a little different… I mean, OWLs are clearly a form of standardized testing, but what’s different from the US, of course, is that these are written exams and practical exams, where students have some control over the content, right? Whereas when you’re taking a standardized test in the US, it’s questions and a Scantron, and you bubble in your answers, and you’re either right or you’re wrong. So I think what we’re seeing here is a little bit better, but two successive weeks of exams is a lot…

Andrew: So much.

Laura: … especially when you’re telling a 15-year-old – think about where you were mentally at 15 – “Hey, if you screw this up, it completely determines your career trajectory for the rest of your life.” That’s a lot of pressure.

Eric: I also wonder if it’s different because it’s a boarding school, right? They live here, so two weeks… having all their exams spread out over two entire weeks feels actually like a dream to me.

Andrew: That’s a good point.

Micah: Just because there’s so much additional time? I mean, my exams were similar to this, where you would get that entire day just to focus on that particular exam, so you weren’t going to class before or after, which I think is a good thing, because you shouldn’t have to be distracted by other things when you’re focusing on these exams and how important they are. But it was interesting, what Laura said earlier, about how these exams are more open to interpretation, so it’s almost like they have more of a college feel to them, where… not to say that… of course, there are things you take in college where there’s a right and a wrong answer, but I think the ability to just write… I’m thinking to Harry’s History of Magic OWL, right? His answer is not literally going to be the exact same thing as what Hermione or Draco or anybody else writes. So there is that flexibility and thought, and that doesn’t exist, really, when you’re taking more of those standardized tests, to your point.

Eric: Except the essay portion. I had an old English teacher who went down to Florida every year to read essay submissions of I think the SATs, the reading portion by students nationally. So there were a couple of opportunities for independent thought, but even then, I think the scope was really limited. And it’s not like we’re shooting spells or having to run an obstacle course or anything, which I think is always the coolest part about reading about Harry taking tests.

Micah: Well, and much like the real world, there’s a black market for drugs that will enhance your abilities for taking these tests or for cramming late nights.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Drugs and other tools, yeah.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You have Baruffio’s Brain Elixir, as well as Dingle’s powdered dragon claw. Those are a few that are mentioned. And I think Baruffio’s Brain Elixir you can actually brew in Wizards Unite, if I’m not mistaken.

Laura: Yep.

Andrew and Eric: Oh!

Micah: So it is a real thing.

Laura: That is a thing.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Wow. So are you cheating in Wizards Unite?

Micah: Oh, no, you’re enhancing your ability to to defeat Confoundables.

Andrew: I see. Okay.

Micah: Yeah, and Dingle’s powdered dragon claw is, I think, a bunch of dung droppings, from what Hermione said.

Eric: Doxies, yeah. Doxy droppings.

Micah: Yeah, so you don’t want to take that. Or maybe you do. I don’t know, maybe it gives you a nice little kick.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Again, there’s obviously direct comparisons that can be made to young people who do take a lot of things to be able to stay up and study throughout the course of the night prior to an exam.

Eric: Oh, God. 5-hour Energy.

Andrew: 5-hour Energy, Monster, just some good old coffee… when we’re kids, we stay up late, we’re bad with time management, and then, of course, test time comes, and we have to cram it all in at the very last moment. Except for Laura; I’m sure she planned out her schedule appropriately.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: Her and Hermione were in bed by 10:00 p.m.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: No, I wish. I was the person who would stay up all night cramming before an exam as well.

Andrew: I would stay up all night playing Banjo-Kazooie or Super Mario 64 and then at 1:00 a.m. I’d be like, “Oh, right, I have a geometry test tomorrow. Hmm. Oh, well.”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. “I know what I know, and I don’t know what I don’t know.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: What is the circumference of Mumbo Jumbo’s head?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: See, if they asked you that, Andrew, you would have been fine.

Andrew: Good reference. 100 reference.

Eric: Eight pixels.

Micah: [laughs] Eight pixels, nice. Well, yo’veu got drugs, and you’ve got cheating too. So there are bans that are on certain items during these exams. I feel like this is where maybe a Fred and George item would come in handy. But McGonagall specifically says there are no Auto-Answer Quills, Remembralls, Detachable Cribbing Cuffs, or Self-Correcting Ink allowed. Now, the first thing that came to mind is, are these allowed normally?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Like, they’re only not allowed during OWLs, but you can use them any other time for another exam?

Laura: Well, I mean, Neville’s gran sent him a Remembrall in Philosopher’s Stone, so apparently.

Andrew: But was he using it to cheat? He wasn’t using it to cheat.

Laura: No, he’s too innocent.

Andrew: It depends on the use.

Laura: He’s too innocent to use that to cheat.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I think the teachers probably keep an eye out for these various devices during a normal term, but then it’s a lot more serious when you’re trying to cheat during your OWLs.

Eric: Yeah, it’s the same way in that any major test you’re kind of… at the end of the day, it’s up against you and the knowledge you’ve collected. In any situation, there’s some things that will help get you prepared, but at the end of the day, you’ve got to face it. And I think that the Hogwarts students, in the fifth and seventh years… because seventh years are presumably sitting NEWTs at the same time, based on study patterns and things that we see in the hallways and the corridors. But at the end of the day, it’s really about individuals’ ability to test, to show their knowledge.

Andrew: So anyone want to admit to cheating?

Eric: No, I’d rather not admit to cheating.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: That’s an admission in and of itself.

Andrew: Yeah, since teens are listening, maybe we shouldn’t encourage it, of course. But I will say, one time I cheated that I was very proud of was in – this was in college, by the way – a history of rock and roll class. [laughs] And during the test, there was this listening portion where he would blast music, and we had to identify the name of the song and the artist. And come to think of it, how could you study for that? There’s a million songs out there.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But anyway, what I did is I had my iPhone 1 or whatever, and opened up Shazam and used it to cheat on the listening portion of the test.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Andrew.

Eric: Modern technology foils…

Micah: That’s massively impressive.

Laura: I’m so disappointed.

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, whatever, Laura. See how proud of me Micah is?

Micah: I’m impressed.

Andrew: Thank you. Yeah, I was proud of that.

Micah: See, what I find so interesting about it is that today the ability to cheat has to be so much…

Andrew: Oh, it’s so easy.

Micah: The resources are so much more readily accessible than they were when I went to school, right? When I was in high school, we didn’t… cell phones were just…

Andrew: [in an old man voice] “There were no cell phones!”

Micah: There were no cell phones, yeah, exactly. Or if they were, they weighed 40 lbs.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And it looked like you were calling outer space or something.

Andrew: Right, you couldn’t hide that under your desk. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, so I just… I’m interested to know… you’re saying you have, literally, an app that can give you the answers to a question. Your situation is a little bit unique, but I also just think that having phones available to you… I’ve got to imagine that’s something that teachers are always asking students to put away these days, but who knows? If you have a teacher that’s not really that attentive or aware, I would assume you could probably get away with quite a bit.

Eric: Well, and think about even if a teacher confiscates phones, there’s Apple Watch now, right? You could presumably do things with the watch.

Andrew: [whispers] “Hey, Siri, what song is this?”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I’ve definitely seen teachers who will on testing day have a basket on their desk and tell everyone to come put their phones in the basket, but how do you…?

Micah: Did you do that to your students?

Laura: No, no, because I taught fairly small classes, so there wasn’t really going to be much of a chance to get away with something like that. I also think that… I have a personal feeling that when you do stuff like that, it automatically tells your students you don’t trust them, and I just think that doesn’t set a very great precedent, personally.

Micah: Right.

Laura: But for the teachers that do do that, I think about… how do you confiscate someone’s watch?

Andrew: Right.

Laura: Like, “Give me your phone, and your watch.”

Andrew: “And your watch.” And I mean, now there’s these rumors about Apple working on glasses, and it’s going to be able to put information right up on your glasses in a heads up display, so cheating is just going to get worse and worse. I think what teachers just have to do – and now, I’m not a teacher, so what do I know? – but when a teacher walks around the room, that’s effective, I think. It might stress out the students a little bit, like, “They’re staring at me,” but you make sure they don’t have their phone out; they don’t have any notes out. I mean, students now, they have to take tests from home due to quarantine and COVID. If I’m taking a test at home, I’m cheating. Sorry.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, and a lot of teachers switch it to be an open-book test, right?

Andrew: Right.

Eric: We did have a couple of those where it was not so much pressure to cram, but to be able to access the resources… those tests were the best, because it was really about if you knew how to find the information, and that is something I was always more infinitely better at.

Andrew: And let’s be honest, that’s what we’re going to do after we graduate. We’re not going to remember every single thing, and we’re going to Google. We’re going to look in books to get our answers. So in a way, it’s the most practical type of test. That prepares you for the future.

Laura: Yes, I agree. It is more reflective of life. To that point, I would just like to bring up we all remember being in high school in this country and our math teachers being like, “You’re never going to walk around with a calculator in your pocket.” Well, guess what?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: We do.

Eric: Let’s say our math teachers’ names out loud right now. Yeah, Mister… [laughs]

Andrew: I had a crush on mine. I won’t speak poorly of him.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, no, but you’re right. Math was always hard for me to grapple with when it came to test time, because it’s like, “We’re going to be using calculators anyway in the future. And do I need this math? No, of course not.”

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I understand the need to have this wide scope of learning, but what I like about the OWLs is it’s really being able to set… it’s not just a blanket statement where you always hear, “Oh, well, you have to take these tests in order to be successful in life,” right? But I do think the OWLs, at least, are setting up these students for a career path that they’re interested in as of right now, whereas I don’t necessarily think that that’s what a lot of standardized testing here in the US does. You’re just taking it to take it. And then just to wrap up the cheating piece, I mean, I’ll speak for myself, but I would say probably most people – at least going back to pre-cell phone – you would always look over at the person next to you at some point or… not every test, but you’d do it.

Andrew: Yeah, “Which letter did they fill in?” [laughs]

Micah: Yeah, exactly. So I think that’s fair to say.

Andrew: I’m glad you said it.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And I have no problem saying it.

Laura: I did not.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, that’s because you… Laura, you were always at the front of the class, so you didn’t…

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Yeah, I can’t argue that. I was a goody two shoes.

Micah: So if you turned around, it would be noticeable. Yeah, the teacher would notice.

Eric: [laughs] Well, goody two shoes speaking, Hermione is confiscating other people’s coping mechanisms here. She’s going around, and she’s really… but in the case of the Doxy dropping, it’s probably for the best. But she’s really… in addition to freaking out about her own knowledge level… and I really appreciate Ron – again, with the save – at some point, tells her, “Hermione, we said and agreed that we were not going to do this. You’re not going to talk about every test after we’ve taken the test.” Because she can’t let go, which is great. I mean, people… I feel bad that she’s so high-strung. But she also is doing the job of two prefects right now, because Ron, unfortunately, doesn’t seem to be taking it as seriously. He is more of “Let the children do what the children will do,” and Hermione is just like, “No, Ron, this is wrong.”

Micah: But I feel like I’ve done that after exams, though, too, where… right? You just… you want to talk about the test.

Eric: Yeah, you want to…

Micah: You want to know how you did, what did your friends answer, what did your colleagues answer…

Laura: Yeah, I think Hermione is a little bit obsessive here, though, because she wants to talk through every question.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And I’m like, I don’t know how you have the kind of photographic memory where you can remember every question that was on there.

Eric: I wonder if they’re more like those quizzes with two or three questions that just take a while to answer.

Andrew: I don’t know.

Micah: Maybe, but it’s clear Hermione has anxiety. She has nerves about all of these exams, as do Harry… I don’t know, Ron seems like he’s just kind of… maybe he’s still coming off that Quidditch high, but he’s pretty calm throughout most of the chapter. But Harry, he’s dealing with some stuff himself. But switching gears here, let’s talk about the actual OWLs. And we’re introduced to Griselda Marchbanks in this chapter, and the trio are overhearing a conversation with her and with Umbridge, and you can tell she’s definitely team Dumbledore.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “Where is he?”

Micah: And how old is she, first of all, if she sat Dumbledore’s exam with him?

Eric: That’s actually really old.

Micah: That’s what I want to know.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: But, and take this as you will…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: There’s a quote from her that… as they’re talking about Dumbledore and Umbridge is saying that the Ministry will… at some point they’ll track him down; they’ll get him. And she responds by saying, “I really don’t think so. Dumbledore did things with a wand I’ve never seen before.”

Andrew: Ha. That’s my only comment.

Micah: This is a very humbling moment in front of the trio for Umbridge.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Griselda Marchbanks is somebody that Umbridge can’t outwardly or directly oppose, so she’s just forced to kind of sit and smile and change the subject.

Andrew: Well, and you know Umbridge hates that people are missing Dumbledore and wondering where he is, and then saying, “Oh yeah, there’s no way you’re going to be able to find him.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “He does things with that wand…”

Eric: “That man…”

Micah: Do we want to jump into some of these individual OWL examinations?

Andrew: Yeah, I think we can breeze through these pretty quickly.

Micah: There were some cool moments, I think, in some of them. Others were just kind of touched on. But the first one, Charms, there’s a question specifically on Wingardium Leviosa, and it’s a really nice throwback to Sorcerer’s Stone.

Eric: Yeah, I found it surprising that these OWLs – but I guess not surprising, when you think about it – that these OWLs are really all-encompassing. It’s not just the stuff they’ve learned in their fifth year, but it’s everything they’ve learned at Hogwarts in their formal education up to this point. So the very first question… it also seems to be maybe arranged chronologically based on when they learned it, so I kind of like that idea of “Here’s your most basic form of magic, the stuff you covered in year one,” and then it’s gradually going to get more complex.

Micah: The other one I would call attention to is Defense Against the Dark Arts. We know that this is really the one that Harry has been waiting for because… and I think us as readers, too; we really wanted to see not just how Harry was going to do, but really what the reaction of the room was going to be, in particular on the practical examination, right? We don’t care about the written side of things, because…

Andrew: Boring.

Micah: It’s just not as cool, right? You don’t get to see stuff happen. And it’s actually Malfoy who kind of gives Harry the confidence that he needs in this moment. And I was actually disappointed – and I know this is going off on a little bit of a tangent – that this wasn’t in the movies. It speaks to Harry’s education throughout the course of the series, and how important Defense Against the Dark Arts is, and I thought it would’ve been a really cool moment, not only if Harry had cast a Patronus Charm, but if others in the room that were a part of Dumbledore’s Army did the same thing. I know they do it all in the Room of Requirement, but just there are so many scenes that are meshed together in the movie, right? When they’re taking the OWLs, the OWLs actually end with Fred and George disrupting them and them escaping. And the OWLs are presented really as just one examination, as opposed to however many this is over the course of two weeks. But Professor Tofty is mightily impressed with Harry, and he’s even willing to offer bonus points for a Patronus Charm.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Yeah, so I think Malfoy was kind of right in his assertion earlier in the chapter. Harry is offered the opportunity for bonus points based on Professor Tofty being familiar with Harry’s reputation.

Andrew: That does seem pretty unfair.

Laura: Yeah!

Andrew: Hermione would kill for a bonus point.

Eric: [laughs] I think she has.

Laura: And to see a Thestral.

Andrew: Oh, there we go.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Two birds with one stone. Yeah, but it was really cool to see Harry conjure that Patronus, and so easily too. It just reminds you how far he’s come from having to practice a lot to being able to do it quickly on command. He didn’t know he would be asked to do that, and then he just busts one out no problem.

Eric: Well, and it’s a throwback to the courtroom scene earlier when Umbridge really thought she had him, but the first time that the room really broke was when Madame Bones, I want to say, asked Harry about his Patronus, like, “Wait, you can produce a full one, right?” And it’s just… Umbridge cannot stand Harry’s competence in this subject matter on a good day, and I think the unpleasant reminder of what happened in the courtroom… everybody’s always asking Harry to conjure a Patronus when he’s in front of Umbridge. It’s also a good moment for a twist in the book because Harry looks at her stupid, dumb face to conjure the Patronus, and it works, and then he looks at her a little closer, and she’s actually smiling, and he’s like, “Oh, shoot. What’s she planning?”

Laura: Yeah, I wanted to highlight there’s also really what I think is a beautiful connecting the threads moment between Prisoner of Azkaban in this book, but also just this story in general. We see the repercussions of Harry’s private lessons with Lupin and Snape reflected during exams in this chapter. So obviously, Harry’s private lessons with Lupin in Prisoner of Azkaban totally paid off here, whereas his private lessons with Snape really screwed him over.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: Especially as we get to the end of the chapter. He could have taken a few more of them, that’s for sure.

Laura: Yep, and he could have had a better teacher for sure.

Micah: But speaking of Snape, how about Potions? Snape is nowhere to be found during this practical examination. And I think this speaks to something we said in a previous episode, where Harry actually feels like he didn’t do half bad, and I think that’s because Snape is not present in the room; he’s not hovering over him or looking at him, and I think that that’s able to bring down Harry’s anxiety levels a little bit and allow him to focus on what he’s doing. Now, does he do great? We know from Half-Blood Prince he doesn’t achieve the highest level, but he certainly did better than expected.

Eric: Yeah, and it’s just so interesting that Snape is absent. I think we’re meant to take it to believe that he’s still avoiding Harry, and in this case, I think he has to avoid all the Gryffindors in order to avoid Harry. But all the other teachers are kind of around when their exams are being taken – Umbridge is there for the DADA; Hagrid is actually looking through his window during the Care of Magical Creatures OWL later – so the teachers are taking an interest, and they’re… at least for what I presume to be moral support. But Snape is gone, and it actually works in Harry’s favor, as you said.

Andrew: It’s interesting; Snape didn’t do it, though, to avoid stressing out Harry. Where was he? Was he helping Dumbledore? Did he just not care about the kids?

Eric: I mean, I think he’s just still angry at Harry, right? He doesn’t want to be in the same room as him. And we don’t know if Lupin told him, “You’ve got to teach the boy Occlumency,” and we don’t know if Snape actively is avoiding that. But he’s avoiding Harry, I think, at all costs, it seems.

Laura: I could also see Snape just not caring to be there. What’s he going to do? What does he bring to being present during an exam that he can’t help anybody with? So he’s probably like, “Mm, that’s a waste of my time.”

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, he spent the whole year teaching students or trying to get them up to the level, and they either are or they aren’t.

Micah: Right. And I will say, I appreciate the fact that J.K. Rowling actually went into detail on all of these OWLs. I know we’re jumping, really, to the ones that stand out, but it just speaks to the fact that for us as readers, we’ve been with the trio, really, in all of these classes over the course of the last five years, and now we’re finally getting to see the payoff. There’s no just, “Oh, I’m going to skip over Transfiguration or Herbology”; there’s actual detail given to all of those individual exams.

Laura: I thought we could touch on Hagrid in particular watching the examinations happen. He’s sort of nervously watching from his cabin window, right? And I felt like, at least in my reading experience, it felt like Hagrid’s reason for watching the exams take place was a bit different from the other teachers, and I think it’s because Hagrid knows that how his students perform on their Care of Magical Creatures Exam is going to be directly reflective of how effective the Ministry sees him as a teacher, whereas they may not do that to the other Hogwarts teachers, with the exception of Firenze, of course. So just another example of discrimination happening in this book.

Micah: That’s a really great point. Well, let’s talk a little bit then about what happens to Hagrid at the tail end of this chapter, and to your point, Laura, there is a level of discrimination that is going on here beyond just evaluating him and his ability to teach, and this plays out in front of all of the students that are taking the Astronomy practical. And it’s really a heart-wrenching scene, because not only do you have him being attacked unaware, you have McGonagall step in to try and help and her be attacked as a result of that. And it just seems that this whole plan that’s put in place by Umbridge is really not to expel him as a professor; it’s to attack him for who he is.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s really hard to watch. And one thing I was curious about was the fact that they came to his door in the middle of the night. Of course, Harry is taking his Astronomy test; he’s perfectly positioned to watch the whole thing go down.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: But perfect timing. Did she strike in the middle of the night to get him when he least expects it? That’s my guess.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. But just the sheer amount of people she brought with her, surely that’s unnecessary. And I think that it’s not…

Andrew: Is it, though? Because he still got away, so I think she knew they needed some manpower.

Eric: But if you’re talking about a respect of your colleagues, you would… if you’re going to sack somebody, you would presumably… you’d bring maybe another witness, but not six other witnesses. She expected force, and therefore that was what it eroded into.

Laura: Yeah. Well, also, she wasn’t just going down there to sack him; they were clearly trying to take him by force.

Eric: That’s the interesting part. What is the crime here? [imitating Hagrid] “I won’t go to Azkaban!” But I’m like, why are…? I thought this was supposed to be about his incompetence, and maybe it’s about the Nifflers in the office that Lee Jordan put in there, but I just don’t understand the logic of what this whole confrontation is about on the superficial level.

Micah: I think it’s a show of force; it’s a show of power on the part of Umbridge. And yeah, she’s not going there to sack him; as I said earlier, she could have easily done that the following morning by just notifying him, right? Hagrid is expecting to be let go at this point. I mean, that’s why we have the whole scene with Grawp play out. I think that she’s probably hoping to get some information from him that could be helpful in locating Dumbledore, and she has Ministry support here, right? Dawlish is there, and so she actually has Aurors who are assisting her, much like going back to the scene in Dumbledore’s office. I just think this was about clear intimidation, fear… and we know who she is as a person. Hagrid is a half-giant. She has no respect for Hagrid just because of that fact alone, and then the brutality with which she and these Ministry officials attack… Hagrid is defenseless in a way, right? He doesn’t have the ability to do magic, so it’s not like he can respond in the same way. At least, he’s not as effective at it; we know that. So this was the perfect surprise tactic, I think, to the point that was raised earlier. The middle of the night, just going to ambush him, essentially.

Laura: Yeah, it’s also interesting to see Hagrid’s progression here as a character, because we see – this is also a connecting the threads moment back to Prisoner of Azkaban – there’s this attempt by the Ministry to, I think, indirectly discriminate against Hagrid because of Lucius Malfoy’s influence, right? So at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban, they’re literally invading Hagrid’s space in order to execute Buckbeak. They’re doing the same thing but amplified here at the end of Order of the Phoenix. But in Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid is compliant. He disagrees with everything they’re doing, and he’s trying his best to build a defense for Buckbeak, but in the end, he complies with everything the Ministry asks him to do. And at this point, he’s like, “Uhh, no more. I’m done with you fools. I’m out of here.”

Andrew: Yeah, there’s an uprising happening, and he feels like he’s a part of it. He’s part of the rebellion. It was interesting – sorry to steal your note, Eric – that the spells are bouncing off of Hagrid, and that was cool to see, given everything that’s going on.

Eric: Yeah, I never quite feel like I’ll fully grasp why that works, but it works.

Andrew: Because he’s got thick skin. I think that’s what’s said in the book, right?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I mean, literally thick skin.

Eric: Yeah, but a spell would penetrate your skin, surely. The Death Curse isn’t going to stop because you’ve got a little bit more skin cells on top.

Andrew: Well, and that jacket is heavy duty. I mean, that’s pretty thick too, so between the two…

Eric: [laughs] Yeah, the comparison that Hagrid is thick-skinned is also true with dragon hide; a lot of substances in the Harry Potter books that are made of dragon skin and dragon hide are better at withstanding hot temperatures or better at withstanding spells. That’s just… it’s almost cartoonish, though, the way that six Aurors, if they’re all like Dawlish… Dawlish is definitely there; six Ministry officials are just shooting spells at him, and they’re bouncing off or not affecting him. Meanwhile, McGonagall comes out to stop the whole situation, and four of those spells at once shot at her – which is an excessive use of force – unprovoked. They level her, though. They absolutely lay her out cold. And Hagrid, meanwhile, with his not only full, half-giant skin, is able to somehow take all of them on and land some punches and then run away into the forest.

Andrew: Yeah. The attack on McGonagall was really sad to see, and again, right in front of students. Umbridge must have known she would be doing this in front of kids. That might be something to add to the suck count.

Eric: Well, it’s 11 o’clock at night; does she really think that? I mean, they are sitting…

Andrew: Well, because the OWLs are going on; that’s why I say that. I mean, under the cover of darkness, I guess. And then as Eric mentioned a couple minutes ago, we do find out that Lee Jordan used the Nifflers. That was him who set the Nifflers free, and he got them from the Weasley twins. The lesson here, panel, is we’ve got to start reading ahead. On the other hand, it’s kind of fun that we forget what happens in the immediate future, the little things. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I like being surprised by it. Thank you to everybody who corrected us and told us in advance that this was coming.

Micah: Just a few emails that came into the inbox about Nifflers and Lee Jordan.

Andrew: We actually have not read the Harry Potter books before. Surprise! We’re going through these for the first time, out of order.

Micah: Out of order. [laughs]

Eric: It’s such a small fact, but I really… I don’t know what Lee was thinking, honestly. And he says Fred and George gave him their couple. What are Fred and George doing with Nifflers?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: And where were they hiding them? Because, like I said last week, I feel like they would get out of wherever they were and wreak havoc over Hogwarts all the time.

Eric: It’s what Nifflers do, yeah.

Micah: I think, though, unfortunately, it does give Umbridge at least another reason, whether justified or not, to go after Hagrid, because he is a Care of Magical Creatures professor. But look, I think people would notice if Hagrid was coming up to the school, dropping Nifflers in Umbridge’s office. Again, the same thing with him getting out of the Quidditch match with nobody seeing him. He’s a half-giant at the end of the day; people are going to notice what he’s doing.

Eric: But can we talk again more about this attack on McGonagall? Because she may not be Headmistress – Umbridge is Headmistress – but she’s the Deputy Headmistress; she’s the Head of a Hogwarts House. The fact that she’s coming down the hill with the intention to stop just the violence and try and talk something out… she clearly is there as a peaceable person. She’s not brandishing a wand or anything. And the fact that – not Umbridge; I doubt Umbridge even fires a spell because she’s so incompetent during all this – but the fact that Umbridge’s soldiers shoot at and lay McGonagall flat for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, hello, that speaks to a lot of what’s been going on in the real world.

Micah: Yeah, I think to the point of the email at the top of the show, there’s always a way to connect current events to what you’re reading when the themes are so relevant, as they are in the Harry Potter series. They’re timely, but they’re also timeless, because this has been an issue that has been going on for 400 years in our country. And I would just say that the attack on Hagrid, actually, that reminded me of the incident on – the murder, I should say – of George Floyd. And the police – in this case, the Ministry – and their abuse of power, attacking a defenseless individual with the intent to harm him, and the underlying racist tendencies towards, in this case, a half-giant… and we’ve learned a lot over the course of the Harry Potter series about how there are strong discriminatory policies in place against different types of people, and that is no different than what is is happening right now in our country.

Eric: And they know Hagrid is unarmed because they snapped his wand. They know he doesn’t have a wand; he hasn’t had a wand since he was 12 years old. They know he’s unarmed. He’s big, he scares them, but he’s unarmed. There is no need for six of them. Yeah, so after that whole evening of exciting events…

Micah: Yeah, I don’t think there’s an easy transition from that off to what happens at the end of the chapter, just that Harry has one more OWL to sit, and that is History of Magic. And this is when his mind really starts to drift. He’s clearly consumed by what happened the night before, and we’re talking about not only the Head of his House, but a close ally in McGonagall, who was attacked and is now, for the foreseeable future, out of the picture. Hagrid, also an ally, is now out of the picture. And so those who Harry can really trust and rely upon who are adults, the list is dwindling, and I don’t even know who else would be a reference point for him right now if he needed something.

Andrew: At the school, yeah. And it was a really awful moment, of course, and then was it Lee Jordan who said…? They just watched McGonagall get attacked; then seconds later, he’s like, “Well, I’m off to bed.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: How can you go to sleep after that? One of your teachers, a very good teacher, was just attacked. Two of them. I thought that was a little silly. But anyway, yeah, so Harry is feeling sleepy after a rough night. It’s time for Voldemort to strike.

Eric: I had some questions about the vision that Harry sees. Of course, it’s all designed to get Harry to come to the Ministry to the Department of Mysteries and take the prophecy off the shelf, but Harry hears Voldemort telling Sirius to grab what is the prophecy. He says, “I cannot grab it, but you can.” I think this is fundamentally just wrong, right? Because the prophecy can be grabbed by the people to whom the prophecy is being made about.

Andrew: Right.

Eric: So Harry and Voldemort, either of them could grab it from the shelf. The very notion that Voldemort needs Sirius to, to which Sirius replies, “Over my dead body,” or “You’ll have to kill me,” is wrong, right? It’s just wrong information.

Andrew: But it doesn’t matter if it’s correct. Voldemort is trying to lure Harry to where they are.

Eric: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Andrew: But here’s the thing that gets me: If the adults had actually just filled Harry in on what the heck has been going on this year, Harry may have actually been educated on prophecies, known that Sirius could not touch it, and then would have been able to suspect that Voldemort was making up what was happening.

Eric: It would have given him an extra bit of ammo to say, “Wait, I should stop and think.”

Andrew: “This can’t be right.”

Eric: Exactly, yeah. Looking back, my question for the panel – and maybe even for the listeners, if you want to write in – what would have been the whole problem with telling Harry from the onset, or everybody, that the weapon that everybody’s been so damn secret about was a prophecy? Say they reveal what it was from the get-go. You have no book; you have no Book 5, I mean. But besides that, what? What was so protective about the fact that it’s a prophecy? Only Dumbledore knows what the contents of the prophecy are, but everybody assumes roughly what it’s about, right? If you were to tell the wizarding world in general, “Oh, there was a prophecy made,” nobody’s going to be able to extra get it all of a sudden; it’s still going to have the highest levels of security. So what would have been the harm in them saying at the beginning of the year, “Voldemort is trying to get it into the Hall of Prophecy, and this is why, because there was a prophecy”?

Andrew: Right, and then educate him on prophecies. What also cracks me up is Voldemort says in this vision, “We have hours ahead of us and nobody to hear you scream,” basically telling Harry, “We’re going to be here for a while, wink wink.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Eric: “Coast is clear.”

Andrew: “Take your time! Come on in! We’ll be here.”

Eric: Figure out how to get your ass to London with Hogwarts in a police state.

Laura: Yeah, I have a feeling this may be a case where we find out some more context about this in future chapters, so we might start getting some emails from people being like, “Well, actually, they couldn’t tell Harry because of X, Y, and Z.”

Eric: I’m willing to take that risk.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Eric: I genuinely think it’s a little bit of a… I mean, do you have an inkling, Laura?

Andrew: Yeah, Laura, what do you know?

Laura: I’m not saying that I know anything. I mean, just thinking about what we know about Harry’s character, he probably would have been goaded on to try and find the prophecy or try and fight Voldemort if he were led to believe that it had been prophesized that either he or Neville, but ultimately he, was the one that had to defeat Voldemort. And if he had found that out at this point in the series, it really could have messed up the trajectory for the rest of the books.

Andrew: Yeah, I understand the characters may have had their reasons for not telling Harry; I’m just saying that Occlumency was a total waste. If Harry actually knew what Voldemort was up to, at least bits and pieces of it, maybe he would have been able to look at this vision he was having and realizing that Voldemort was trying to play a trick on him.

Eric: Yeah, and I mean, he spent all year dreaming about the room and what’s in the room and all this stuff. If they just told him, there wouldn’t have been that yearning. The only reason Harry ends up going is because he’s been so turned on and interested and intrigued by the mystery of it all, all year long. They could have removed that component, and you get a much calmer Harry with a much less dire need to go to London.

Laura: Yeah, the thing is, though, Harry’s brain is a two-way radio in this book, and given the fact that he’s not performing very well at Occlumency, I can see why they would be hesitant to tell him too much, because if he’s not very good at shutting off his mind, anything they tell him is a risk.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. I think it’s just… look, we know it’s a prophecy, because what is Voldemort…? Voldemort can’t know that they know that he’s looking for the prophecy? They know, and he knows they know because they keep stationing guards outside of the room, so he knows from the… I don’t see it as a lost scenario. And then Dumbledore should have taken Harry under his wing, or somebody, earlier on for Occlumency. But I don’t want to nitpick the book, obviously. It’s just an open question.

Micah: Yeah, there’s no question, though, that more could have been done to help Harry in this situation, because now he’s just at a point where he’s so vulnerable and he has nobody to rely upon to give him the information that he needs. At the very least, they could have given him more information when he was talking about the things that he was seeing, instead of just saying, “No, you’ve got to close your mind.” So I do agree with that point. And as it relates to prophecies, though – and I’m sure we’ve talked about this on the show at some point – but what would happen if somebody else grabs it? Is there just magic preventing…?

Andrew: It’d explode.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: No, I don’t… yeah, I think there’s magic preventing anybody but the two people who the prophecy is about from touching it.

Eric: Well, they go crazy. That’s what happened with Bode, right? He actually touched the prophecy. I think it was Bode. But Bode was Imperiused to touch the prophecy, and it scrambled his brain. It’s a big deal. But I don’t think that’s because it was a prophecy; I think that’s because of the protections on it.

Micah: Right. Well, and then who puts them there in the first place? Do they just pop up when a prophecy is made? Or do you have the Unspeakables?

Andrew: No, in Book 1 baby Harry went and put the prophecy in the Department of Mysteries.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: For safekeeping. It was on a much lower shelf back then.

Micah: That makes sense. No, it just seems a little silly in practice to me. But also, yeah, I mean, we’ll get into it in future chapters about how Harry should have been a little bit more just aware of the fact that Sirius would never have put himself in that type of situation, despite how reckless he could be at times.

Andrew: I would guess they magically appear there. When the prophecy is made, it just magically appears over in the Hall of Prophecies.

Eric: I believe that. Pretty interesting work on the part of the Ministry to guide them there, to have it be in the ether that if a prophecy has been conducted, it would show up in London. Or maybe it was always where prophecies showed up, and that’s why they built the department around it. We have some pretty interesting questions to ask when we get into the various departments through the next couple chapters, so I am looking forward to that. But speaking of prophecies, I predict that the Umbridge Suck count will pass 100 in the next episode. That’s my prophecy.

Andrew: Oooh, everybody get ready.

Micah: I think that’s probably the last real chance we have, though, isn’t it?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Well, we’d better get tallying.

Micah: Before she gets centaured?

Andrew and Eric: Yeah.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, we have at least four for this chapter. Laura, do you want to take us through a few of these?

Laura: Yeah, so first of all, being present at the Defense Against the Dark Arts exams to intimidate students, particularly Harry. F that.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Agreed.

Laura: And then getting her henchmen together to try and overtake Hagrid in the middle of the night.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: And then Stunning McGonagall with an excessive use of force, no warning. Her Deputy Headmistress.

Andrew: Augh! Does that deserve two?

Eric: That deserves two.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: [whispers] Yes.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: We’re really trying to break 100.

Andrew: And then doing these things in front of students. I know it was late at night, but I really think that Umbridge knew that some students would be able to see this from up at the Astronomy Tower, due to them taking their OWLs.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: So that’s 93, so we have seven more to go. We were confident that we would get over 100. We’ll see.

Laura: Oooh, seven more to go.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, now it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: I’m going to give it to McGonagall for trying to help Hagrid, for being a strong woman and getting knocked down like that. That sucks. But good on you, McGonagall, for fighting the good fight.

Eric: I’m going to give it to Ron for his level-headed approach, his new world view following his Quidditch victory. Two weeks in a row, Ron, you ‘da real MVP.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I’m going to give it to Professor Tofty for encouraging Harry in that moment to cast the Patronus Charm and stick it to Umbridge.

Laura: I’m going to give it to Hagrid. Need I say more?

Andrew: [laughs] No, you need not.

Micah: We didn’t talk about… oh, actually, you know what? This is a retroactive Umbridge Suck count…

[Andrew gasps]

Micah: … but Fang.

Laura: Ohh.

Micah: There is animal abuse in this chapter.

Andrew: Ah!

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: Thanks for catching that.

Micah: There we go. Hagrid has to drape poor Fang over his shoulders.

Eric: Okay, we’re at 94, you guys. We got this.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 31, “Ordinary Wizarding Lawlessness!”

Eric: Starting to sound like a security nightmare.

Micah: Uh-oh.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: Okay, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 31, “Rubeus Hagrid’s Punch Out.”

Andrew: [laughs] I like that one. That was better than last week’s.

Eric: Thanks.

Micah: I will go with Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 31, “Naughty Nifflers.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 31, “Knock ’em, Sock ’em Hagbots.”

Andrew: Nice.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Okay.

Laura: That’s for all you ’90s kids out there. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, that was a fun discussion. If anybody has any feedback about what we had to say on today’s episode, send it on in via the MuggleCast contact form on MuggleCast.com, or email MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also use that email address to send us a voice memo, and you can also reach out to us the old fashioned way with a telephone. Our number is… 1-920-3-MUGGLE; that’s 1-920-368-4453. You’d think I’d have that memorized by now, but I don’t.

Eric: I was just thinking, when’s the last time we mentioned the PO box too?

Andrew: PO Box, yeah, if you want to send us a goat…

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: … or you have some feedback; you’d prefer to hand write it. Where can they send that?

Eric: It’s 4044 North Lincoln Avenue, Box #144, Chicago Il, 60618. Again, thanks to all of the people who sent us… I know Sonia sent something recently to us, and we got a couple of things.

Andrew: Well, yeah, the tweet printed on the canvas. Yeah, and the face masks. All kinds of things coming in there, so thanks to everybody who reaches out via the PO Box.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: Who is the head of the Wizarding Examinations Authority? The answer, of course, is Griselda Marchbanks. Congratulations to DarthFerrax, SupSarahhh, Samwise Potter Skywalker, Reese Without Her Spoon, Stech Me a Picture, Caitlyn the Greatlyn, Robbie Stillman, Sarah a.k.a. Weensie, BonkersBricks, Count Ravioli, and Jason King. Okay, next week’s question: What curse is Umbridge prepared to use on Harry?

Andrew: Hmm, I think I might know this one, actually.

Eric: Oh, well, you should submit the answer to us over on Twitter at MuggleCast using hashtag Quizzitch.

Andrew: All right. And by the way, people might be asking, “When are you having your next live Quizzitch?” It will probably be towards the end of July. Hint hint, wink wink. What anniversary is at the end of July? Thank you, everybody, for listening to this week’s episode. We will be back next week. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.

Transcript #467

Transcript for MuggleCast Episode #467, Stranger Danger (OOTP 30, Grawp)


Show Intro


[Show music plays]

Andrew Sims: Welcome to MuggleCast, your weekly ride into the wizarding world. I’m Andrew.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric.

Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah.

Laura Tee: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: We missed everybody last week, but we are back. It is June. Summer is always a great time for Harry Potter fans. We remember the books that came out over the summer; that was always a very special time.


News


Andrew: And believe it or not, J.K. Rowling, over the past week, announced another children’s book! This is something she has not done since she finished the Harry Potter series back in 2007. It’s called The Ickabog, and it is a political fairy tale. This is the one she has been teasing for a while. Has anybody read this yet?

Laura: I read Chapter 1.

Andrew: Do you like it so far?

Laura: Yeah. I mean, it’s very much… you can tell that it’s a morality tale about the abuses of power by certain leadership, so it’s, I think, very timely, not just for now, but you could really apply it to a lot of different time frames and countries. So it really is applicable for teaching the kinds of lessons about the abuses of power that we see in Harry Potter, even though The Ickabog has nothing to do with Harry Potter.

Micah: Did anybody else think Ichabod Crane when they heard the name? Or was that just me?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s a very unique sounding word.

Andrew: She said,

“The idea for The Ickabog came to me while I was still writing Harry Potter. I wrote most of a first draft in fits and starts between Potter books, intending to publish it after Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. However, after the last Potter book I wanted to take a break from publishing, which ended up lasting five years. In that time I wrote The Casual Vacancy and Robert Galbraith wrote The Cuckoo’s Calling.”

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: “After some dithering I decided I wanted to step away from children’s books for a while. At that point, the first draft of The Ickabog went up into the attic, where it’s remained for nearly a decade. Over time I came to think of it as a story that belonged to my two younger children, because I’d read it to them in the evenings when they were little, which has always been a happy family memory. The Ickabog is a story about truth and the abuse of power. To forestall one obvious question…”

And Laura, you may have been wondering this…

“… the idea came to me well over a decade ago, so it isn’t intended to be read as a response to anything that’s happening in the world right now. The themes are timeless and could apply to any era or any country.”

And I will also add, J.K. Rowling said when announcing this book that the pandemic kind of inspired her to finally publish this because she knew kids needed something to read right now. So she is publishing this chapter by chapter on her website now through early July, and then it will be published in physical and ebook formats this November. So I haven’t started reading it yet because I’d rather read it once it’s all out, so maybe I’ll wait until… I won’t wait till November, but once it’s all published online.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: And by the way, she also said that proceeds from the book will be going to funds that will help people who are struggling during the pandemic, which is great.

Micah: You just can’t handle the anticipation, can you, Andrew?

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Going from one day to the next. I think there’s ten chapters that have been released to date.

Andrew: Yeah, and there’s like, 34 total. And they’re kind of short, right? So I just don’t want to jump in and out.

Micah: Just to add one other thing to what you said, though, about the publication portion of it: She is encouraging young kids to submit art that will eventually be published in these books, depending upon the region in which they’re submitted. So I think that’s actually really cool, that kids that are 7 to 9, I think the age range is, will get the opportunity to have their artwork published in a book by J.K. Rowling.

Andrew: It is cool. Yeah, what an incredible opportunity. Everybody follows J.K. Rowling on Twitter. Everybody knows that she has been, over the past few days, retweeting a lot – a lot – of illustrations by children after they read these chapters of the Ickabog. And it was… honestly, I had to mute J.K. Rowling because it was too many tweets. [laughs] I mean, it’s probably 200 at this point. And I get why she’s doing it, and it’s her Twitter account, whatever. But I decided that I would do my own sketch of the Ickabog.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: And I didn’t tweet it to J.K. Rowling…

Micah: But you haven’t read it yet, so how do you know what it looks like?

Andrew: Well, I looked at the illustrations by children, and I just made mine based on that. [laughs]

Eric: Oh my God.

Micah: It has to come from within, Andrew. You have to feel the Ickabog within you.

Andrew: [laughs] So I drew something really bad on my iPad, and I said, “Pat, tweet this to her.” I didn’t want her to… just in case she recognized me.

Micah: And how did Pat do that? What did he say? “This is from my 7-year-old nephew”?

Eric: He said son.

Andrew: Yes, I’ll read you the tweet.

Eric: Oh, God.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: “Hi, J.K. Rowling. My son Andrew just turned 10, and drew his version of Ickabog on my iPad. I thought this guy was just yelling for Ickabog, but Andrew informs me he is just screaming his own name.” So J.K. Rowling did not retweet this, but she did favorite it, and that is the first time that Pat has been favorited by J.K. Rowling. You’re welcome, Pat.

Eric: Wow, congrats to Pat.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: I’ve not been favorited by J.K. Rowling, so he’s got a leg up on me.

Eric: I read this tweet in the wild; I happened to just come across it. I said to myself, “I didn’t know Pat had a son, and I didn’t know Pat had…” like, probably from a previous relationship.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: “And I didn’t know his kid was named Andrew.”

Laura: “That’s weird!”

Eric: I completely fell for it. I completely fell.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Wow. Well, now it all comes full circle.

Andrew: How long did it take for you to realize what was going on? [laughs]

Eric: Well, I did a double take, and then I was like, “But this artwork really doesn’t look like a 30-year-old man drew it, so I’m still confused.”

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, yeah. I’m not a good artist.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Now, is Pat okay with the fact that his tweet was liked by J.K. Rowling on the basis of a lie?

Andrew: [laughs] Well…

Eric: It’s bad karma.

Micah: Or does it not matter? It’s just, “She liked it; I’m good with it”?

Eric: Ill-gotten gains.

Andrew: He knew what he was getting into. He’s dating somebody who trolls J.K. Rowling full time. I see she’s still retweeting drawings this morning, so panel, why don’t you guys draw something and send it to her and pretend you’re an 8-year-old, and maybe she’ll share it?

Eric: So is the goal, then, to cover The Ickabog after it’s been all online? Is that what we can tell people?

Andrew: Yeah, I think so. She will have finished publishing The Ickabog online right around the time we’re wrapping up our Chapter by Chapter series for Order of the Phoenix. So I would expect us to do a review, spend an episode reviewing the book, just talking about the book in mid to late July, maybe early August.

Eric: Got it.

Andrew: But yeah. And I mean, the other thing to keep in mind is I think this is geared towards younger audiences, even younger than Harry Potter was. So we may not have too much to say about it, but we will definitely talk about it.

Eric: Cool.

Andrew: So in some other news, all of the Harry Potter movies are finally available in one streaming app in the United States. This actually came by surprise. HBO Max just launched. This is the new Netflix and Hulu; this is a new competitor for them. It’s got thousands of movies, TV shows, original series – of course, just like Netflix and Hulu – and we actually weren’t expecting Harry Potter to be there, even though it would make sense, because Warner Media owns the Harry Potter series. We didn’t expect the movies to be there because NBC had a deal in which they had the streaming rights through 2025, but HBO somehow bought the rights back, and now all eight Harry Potter movies, plus Fantastic Beasts 2 – but not Fantastic Beasts 1 – are on HBO Max. Are any of you signing up for this?

Micah: No.

Eric: I have it. And yeah, I was very surprised to see Harry Potter on there, as well as a lot of old Looney Tunes and a bunch of other series I never got to watch, like Westworld, so I’m looking forward to it. It’s nice to know that Harry Potter streaming is accessible to me. I do have all the DVDs and Blu-rays, but it’s always nice to see, oh, if I am stranded somewhere but I have Internet access, I can watch a Harry Potter movie.

Andrew and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: So here’s the question that I have, though, is if you are already a subscriber to HBO and you have HBO Go, what’s the difference? Is it just the library is larger for HBO Max?

Andrew: Yes, it is the same price as HBO. Basically, HBO Max is the new digital HBO. Your account may actually work with HBO Max; you should try logging in. That’s their goal; it’s to make all the existing HBO Go and HBO Now accounts work on HBO Max, but it depends on which cable provider you have, and did you buy the subscription directly from HBO, stuff like that. But you should be able to log in. Give it a try, Micah, and then watch Sex and the City.

Micah: I will let you know on the next episode.

Andrew: Okay, cool.

Micah: You want to watch together, since you…?

Andrew: Sure.

Micah: Okay.

Andrew: To Eric’s point, it is nice to be able to access the movies without having to pop in a disc. I know some people are saying, “Well, what’s the big deal? We all have the movies anyway.” Yeah, but this is… we’re in a world of streaming these days, and it’s nice to have all movies there. And by the way, if a Harry Potter TV series ever happens, I think it will happen on HBO Max, since they are owned by Warner Media, who owns Warner Bros.

Micah: Yeah. And I mean, the only downside, I would say, is I did like the ability to flip through the channels every once in a while and come across a Potter movie, and I know you said NBC previously had the rights. That said, the only downside to that was the commercials.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And when you get into a lot of these stations, whether it was Syfy or whatever the subsidiaries of NBC are, would play these movies, they would play the editions that had the deleted scenes in them, so in some cases, you’re talking about movies being four hours or close to four hours in length with commercials slotted in there. And so I do like the ability, like you said, to be able to go to one place and just watch it. If you wanted to do a marathon yourself, you have the ability to start and stop it when you want.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. And by the way, they still will be airing on television. NBC still has the TV rights.

Eric: Nice.

Andrew: In some other news, WizardingWorld.com continues to roll out their chapter by chapter reading of the first Harry Potter book. Chapter 5 was narrated by Simon Callow, Bonnie Wright, Evanna Lynch, and Chapter 6 was narrated by the Cursed Child cast. Chapter 7 was narrated by Olivia Coleman, and they had some cameos: Jonathan Van Ness from Queer Eye, and Kate McKinnon, best known for being on SNL. They read the Sorting Hat lines.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Jonathan Van Ness did the song, and then Kate McKinnon did a part a little bit later, and those were really good. And then Chapter 8, a major star from India, Alia Bhatt; she read that chapter with a cameo from Alec Baldwin and his daughter. So now they’re starting to add these cameos as well.

Micah: Yeah, I find it interesting, though, that they’re not spreading it out a little bit more. Why not give an entire chapter to Evanna or Bonnie or even some of these other actors or actresses? I mean, the cameo idea is cool, but I would imagine that there’s going to be a demand for this beyond just Sorcerer’s Stone, so that’s why I’m thinking that they may want to give this a little bit more runway than they are.

Eric: I mean, they fit the whole cast of Cursed Child into the one chapter by just getting everybody to take one character and announcing… I mean, I saw that it happened; I haven’t listened yet, but there’s just so much… even in this content… I’m just fascinated by this sprawling new content artform kind of thing they’re going for. I don’t know what it is, but it’s actually just hard to keep up with. Between this and The Ickabog, you could spend…

Micah: Content overload.

Eric: Content overload! All of a sudden.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Oh, you people.

Eric: Zero to a million. I just think there’s so much going on, it’s like, “Oh, before I turn around, I do a 360 degree turn, and all of a sudden there’s a new chapter being read by six or seven different actors I’ve heard of.”

Micah: By the time this episode is released, though… I happened to catch The View – my mom watches The View every day – and I believe Whoopi Goldberg is going to be reading a chapter next week, so that’s a nice preview. She’s a huge Potter fan, by the way.

Laura: Yep. I’ll be there for that. Love Whoopi.

Andrew: I guess my only comment on this is I’m surprised they’re already using people who weren’t in the Harry Potter movies.

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I was expecting more people from the Harry Potter movies, but maybe there will be towards the end of the book. All right, also just want to say thank you to MuggleCast listener Sonia for getting me a canvas print of J.K. Rowling’s infamous Wormtaily tweet for my birthday. She sent this to the P.O. Box, and Eric got it to me. I just posted a picture in Slack for you guys to see it, but it’s also on our Patreon, and we should probably post it on social media. This is wonderful because it was a very dark, but in hindsight, great moment in my life, and now I can hang up this tweet and always be reminded of J.K. Rowling hating on my website.

Micah: A dark moment? No, I think… didn’t we rationalize this whole thing on a previous episode?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yes, she was encouraging…

Micah: She did it to actually drive people to your website.

Laura: Right.

Andrew: The day it happened, though, it was traumatizing.

Micah: Oh, I see.

Andrew: That’s what I mean.

Micah: So it brought back some memories. I see.

Andrew: Yes, yes. But no, I love it. Thank you, Sonia. I greatly appreciate that.

Laura: Andrew, what would you have done if she had responded to your depiction of the Ickabog with hashtag Wormtaily?

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: She knew.

Andrew: It’d be time for another canvas.

Micah: I actually also have one thank you as well, and this was something that I got several weeks ago, so I apologize for not saying thank you before this. Mev sent me a stuffed goat.

Eric: We all got one.

Laura: Yep.

Micah: Oh, you did?

Andrew: She sent all four of us goats. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, we all goat mail.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yes, I think it’s great. This company, YouGoatMail.com.

Andrew: Wow. Why does that exist?

Micah: It’s a great question. I wonder what else they sell besides stuffed goats.

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Yeah. I have mine next to my desk.

Laura: Same.

Andrew: Thank you, Mev. That was very nice.

Laura: I love it.

Andrew: Also, now’s the time to support the show and help it grow, because we’ve just announced the MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt! As everybody should know by now, it features a new crest to celebrate our birthday, and it’s available in two cuts and colors. Pledge by June 30 at Patreon.com/MuggleCast and remain a patron for at least three months to receive one for yourself. And a little bit of news, we have some people who still haven’t filled out the form on Patreon, so please, if you are already a patron, make sure you do that. We’ll post another link in the days ahead so you can easily access it, because obviously, we need your size and your cut and your color preference. And Slug Club members, please fill it out by June 8, because we are going to be sending out T-shirts to Slug Club members first, and everybody else who pledges at the Dumbledore’s Army level, you will receive a shirt a few weeks later. So we’re really excited to start getting these shirts out; we just wanted to prioritize Slug Club members so we can send out a smaller wave at the beginning. So pledge at Patreon.com/MuggleCast. Thank you very much; we really appreciate your support, and obviously there’s tons of other benefits there for you to enjoy as well, so if you’re bored right now and maybe you want to support this podcast because you love it, head to Patreon. Help us out. Pledge at any level, whatever you can afford. We would deeply appreciate it.


Listener Feedback


Andrew: Okay, it’s time for some Muggle Mail now, and we’re going to start with a voicemail.

[Voicemail plays]

“Hi, Melissa here from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I was inspired by your conversations about Head students and prefects last week to think more deeply about both James Potter and Ron Weasley. I think the fact that Ron was given the position of prefect is a link to the chapter ‘Grawp,’ which you will be talking about, specifically in relation to Ron’s Quidditch win and confidence. Oftentimes positions like prefect and Head Boy are opportunities for people to grow in their maturity and leadership in ways that might not be possible without those positions. Laura mentioned how sometimes anxiety is used as a tool for pushing students to grow academically, and I think being given a position of responsibility is a way teachers can push students to grow personally. I know Dumbledore says he didn’t give Harry the position because Harry would already have a trying year, but maybe this isn’t just an action against Harry, but rather one to help Ron mature in ways that Harry already has. We don’t often see actions done for Ron’s benefit; usually they’re for Harry. I also wonder if this is why Dumbledore gave James Potter the Head Boy shift, even though James was a rule breaker and not a prefect. As a mentor, Dumbledore might have seen the potential of James to be a great leader, fighter, and defender, as he was in the Order of the Phoenix, but did not see events in James life that would push him to mature quickly enough to do so.”

[Voicemail ends]

Andrew: That’s a great point. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Eric: Yeah, definitely.

Laura: All right, and we have some Muggle Mail here. This one comes from Stacy. Stacy says,

“Two thoughts based on the most recent episode… First, Harry overlooking all of the other people he could have asked about James (he never considered sending a letter to Remus, which asking about his dad would have probably been okay by Umbridge’s standards, and one of the first things Hagrid ever said to Harry was that he knew his parents) really shows just how much Sirius came to mean to him in such a short time, which makes the end of the book so much worse. Like Eric said, it almost seemed like J.K. Rowling was building the relationship up just to utterly destroy all of us readers. Second, it never occurred to me before, but there’s a very interesting connecting the future threads between McGonagall standing up for Harry in this chapter and Harry standing up for McGonagall at the end of Deathly Hallows when Amycus spits on her. For all the rule-breaking he did, both examples really speak to how much mutual respect they hold for each other.”

Laura: Good point, Stacy.

Micah: Very good. I like that future connecting the threads.

Laura: Yeah!

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And probably just worth mentioning this Muggle Mail had tied directly into our last episode, but the next few actually go back and talk about Snape’s Worst Memory.

Eric: Okay, I’ll take this next one. This one is from Melissa.

“To Pat’s point – memories are very biased and conditional and I think Snape’s memories are incredibly biased and conditional. I think this does play a role in the books, even with a suspension of disbelief, because it seems Snape’s memory leaves out so much about his own bullying actions both towards the Marauders and other students (as shown later on), so this memory really skews the relationship between Snape and the Marauders to a point where I think many Harry Potter fans think Marauders = bad, Snape = poor victim. In reality, Snape’s own later memories show this is not the whole story. I don’t think you can make a judgement on other people’s behaviors from Snape’s memories when he seems so unaware of his own actions and the impact they have on other people. Plus, his bias colors everything. I think this correlates to what Pat was saying about conditional memories: It is hard to judge the truth/reality of a situation from one person’s memory because of the prevalence of bias and the mind’s tendency to fill in memories with false details to fit a person’s worldview. I think Snape likes to see himself as a victim to maybe make up for behavior he knows is cruel – trying to give himself an out through the Marauders’ ‘bullying’ even though it seems he gave just as much back to them and to other students at Hogwarts. The Marauders were certainly not right, but I just don’t buy that they were as bad as Snape makes them out to be (or the movies, or many fans). Sirius and James are certainly shown to have matured into admirable adults, while no one in the books ever says the same for Snape, even Dumbledore.”

Eric: I’ve got to say, I like this bit at the end about maturing from teenagership, her claim that nobody would say that Snape has matured. That part I find interesting because I think that seems to be the truest where we see him actively bullying students. Think of his relentless attack on Neville – I know we had a recent email about that, too – but he’s just so petty. As a grown man in charge of teaching these children, his behavior at times is very, very uncalled for.

Andrew: In terms of how accurate Snape’s memories were, though, I think that was confirmed because when Harry goes to meet with Sirius and Lupin, every detail matches.

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: They even bring up, “Oh, was James tossing the Snitch?” And that’s a random thing for Remus or Sirius to bring up, but they do because it really happened, and I think that was the point, it was to tell the reader that this memory was accurate.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. The Pensieve presents memories in an unbiased way. If you only saw Snape’s Worst Memory, you’d be like, “Oh, Snape, poor victim,” but the Pensieve makes it whole, I want to say.

Micah: Right.

Eric: That’s the magic of a Pensieve.

Micah: I thought of two things here. One is that if a memory was to have bias or try to be altered, we see what happens in Half-Blood Prince, right, with Slughorn’s memory?

Laura: Ooh, yep.

Micah: There’s a certain something about it that just seems a little bit off.

Eric: A haziness.

Micah: Yeah. I do like the point that Melissa makes, though, about Snape never fully maturing the way that, let’s say, James does, because Sirius still has a bit of growing up to do himself as well.

Eric: Right.

Micah: But Snape just hasn’t seemed to be able to rid himself of the bitterness, to your point, Eric.

Laura: We talk about Sirius being kind of emotionally stunted, and we attribute that to the fact that he spent his entire young adult life post-Hogwarts in Azkaban. And yes, Snape did not suffer the same fate, but in a lot of ways, Snape has been in a prison of his own making, so I think that that also stunted somebody who might have otherwise been a more positive contributor to society.

Micah: And speaking of Azkaban, this next email from Matt starts off talking about that. He says,

“I think a big part of Sirius’s resentment towards Snape stems from the fact that he knows that Snape was an actual Death Eater who walked free. Sirius does not know the full circumstances regarding Snape switching sides, but it must be infuriating for him to see people like Snape, Karkaroff, and Lucius Malfoy enjoy freedom while he rotted away in Azkaban for something he didn’t do. I know you guys talked about how Harry is not very much like James, but I’m not so sure. Harry has no problem with the twins nearly killing Montague by shoving him in the Vanishing Cabinet. He also enjoys hexing people for fun in Half-Blood Prince. He practices the Leg-Lock Curse on Filch, and he tries out a curse on Goyle to make his toenails grow at an alarming rate. Harry did not express any sympathy for Malfoy when fake Moody turned him into a ferret and bounced him up and down. We know that Lily and Snape had been friends, so that changes my perception of her a bit too. If Snape had been dangling Sirius or Remus upside down, you bet your behind that James would come to their defense. If we saw a scene like this with zero context to James’s friendship with Sirius or Remus, we would be applauding James as a good samaritan as well.”

Andrew: Interesting.

Micah: Yeah, so I think the point Matt is making is it’s all about context, right? And it’s all about the perception of what’s happening in front of us and whose eyes we’re really seeing it through. But also, the first paragraph, I thought, was very interesting, about how Sirius probably does have a level of resentment deep down for a number of these Death Eaters that are just walking free while he is paying for something that he didn’t do.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Andrew: For sure. In terms of Harry acting out, though, I mean, nobody’s perfect, so I agree there’s some of James in Harry, but I still wouldn’t compare them too closely.

Micah: Yeah, the ferret example… I just have a hard time there because I think that they’re rivals, right? But they never really get to the point, Harry and Draco, outside of that Sectumsempra scene where they’re physically really doing damage to each other, and I think he’s just looking at that as a very funny moment where Malfoy finally just gets a little bit of what’s coming to him. And I’m sure we all have examples ourselves, where we’ve been in similar situations, where we’ve seen something happen to somebody where, obviously not serious, but we’re like, “Oh, that person finally got theirs” a little bit.

Eric: Well, and with the ferret scene, it’s a teacher doing that to Draco, and it’s like if your rival at school is scolded by the teacher, you’re probably going to gloat a little bit. I think that is normal.

Micah: Totally. Remember, Harry is 15.

Andrew: This final email today is from World’s Oddest Man.

“Hi, MuggleCast. I was listening to Episode 465 and I was thinking about the point that was brought up regarding the Marauders’ striking similarity to Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle in the chapter discussion of Snape’s Worst Memory. Specifically, with James and Draco’s actions being eerily similar, I found it odd that Snape didn’t make this connection between them while Harry did. My hypothesis is that Harry had love in his life and Snape didn’t. Even though both had miserable childhoods, when they got to Hogwarts their experiences vastly differ. Harry was greeted with open arms and close friends that helped to give him perspective – there is love and caring in the world when you step out of the shadow of the Dursleys. Snape conversely found that the pain from his home life continued at Hogwarts through bullying from the Marauders and the fact that he didn’t have the love and support around him like Harry. The only evidence we have of anyone caring about Snape at all was Lily, and eventually he unwillingly pushed her away, into the arms of his bully and eventually to their deaths. The lack of love and the bullying trauma have combined to keep Snape stuck in a juvenile black and white mindset – bully or be bullied. This allows him to excuse Draco’s antics as it fits his worldview, as opposed to Harry, who can see the more nuanced connection between his father and Draco. Upon reflection, I feel the opposite viewpoints of Harry and Snape in this moment is where the theme of the series that Rowling sets up really shines through as a cautionary tale – love is the most powerful force in the world, and without it we are not whole.”

Andrew: Well, World’s Oddest Man, you are also the world’s greatest emailer, because I think this was a great point.

Micah: Yeah, I agree. See, the thing, though, with Snape is that I don’t think he cares. He sees so much of James and Harry that it doesn’t matter to him what Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle do; he’s relishing in the fact that they’re bullying Harry and his friends.

Andrew: All right, well, before we get to Chapter by Chapter, MeUndies is back to sponsor this week’s episode of MuggleCast, makers of the most comfortable and surprising underwear and loungewear. You know how Dobby gets a piece of clothing and he’s so happy it seems like he’ll never take it off? That’ll be you with MeUndies.

[Ad break]

Laura: Now I’m just imagining Dobby wearing a pair of MeUndies with, like, a dumpling pattern on them.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: There you go.

Laura: But on his head, right? He would wear it as a hat. [laughs]

Andrew: Right. He would never take them off, I promise you.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: We can let Jule know, and that’ll be on our social media post this week.

Laura: Perfect. [laughs]

Andrew: That’ll be the Photoshop this week, yeah.


Chapter by Chapter: Seven-Word Summary


Andrew: It’s time now for Chapter by Chapter, and this week we are discussing Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Grawp.”

Micah: Grawp.

Andrew: And we’ll start with our Seven-Word Summary. I won’t start with Harry. I won’t start with Harry. Hagrid…

[Seven-Word Summary music plays]

Eric: … reveals…

Micah: … another…

Laura: … giant…

Andrew: … secret…

Eric: … mistake…

Micah: … Grawp.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Comma, Grawp.

Laura: Oh, is Grawp a mistake, though?

Andrew: Well…

Eric: Bringing him to Hogwarts is.


Chapter by Chapter: Main Discussion


Micah: I wanted to start off because – and I shared this with Andrew – a couple days ago, we got an email, and I forget who the listener was who sent it in, and then I tried responding to them and their email didn’t work, so who knows if they’re really a person or not…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … saying that, and I quote, we did a “disservice” in the last chapter by not really discussing Fred and George’s great escape from Hogwarts.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Now, I don’t know if I would call it a disservice, but we can talk a little bit more about it here at the top of the chapter, just given how much of a fallout there is from what happens at the end of the previous chapter.

Andrew: [laughs] You put this time into a response and couldn’t even get it to the person.

Micah: Which proves to everyone it’s not just something we like to say on the show, that we respond to all the emails. We do, and this is a perfect example. But let’s talk about our disservice to Fred and George.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Yeah, it’s a huge moment of defiance, there’s no question about it. Even the things that they say to Umbridge, I don’t think Harry would ever fathom of saying to her face.

Andrew: Right. But they feel invincible, and I think that’s why they do it. And of course, they have this ego about them that we always see, but yeah, it did take a lot of guts, and I think it’ll probably go down in the school’s history as one of the… well, like it’s said, I think, by J.K. Rowling, they’ve reached legendary status.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: They completely defied the rules, they were protesting against Umbridge replacing Dumbledore and all the other things that Umbridge has done, and they had no shame about it, and they pulled it off spectacularly.

Eric: The funny part is, as fantastic as their exit was – and I don’t think you’ll find anyone on this panel that disagrees, it was a wonderful exit of theirs – the eyewitness accounts only get stranger over the next week of Hogwarts history. And I love that J.K. Rowling is touching on how unreliable memory is, or how people tend to embellish when they’re excited, so that the official record, or the official account orally told between students years from now will probably involve things like the twins dive-bombing Umbridge and things like that, which they didn’t do. Their words were strong, but they kept it real tight and just did as much as they did, but people are going to embellish anyway.

Micah: True. Yeah, and we get the great “Give her hell from us, Peeves” line at the end of that chapter, and seemingly a level of respect is established, if it didn’t already exist between Peeves and the Weasley twins, though I think they probably got along pretty well over their time at Hogwarts.

Andrew: Probably.

Micah: They’re both all about the same thing, which is creating mischief.

Laura: Yeah, I think there would have been a level of mutual respect there.

Andrew: One of the former MuggleCast cohosts, Matt, was very inspired by that “Give her hell from us, Peeves.” That was his AIM screen name back in the day.

Eric: [laughs] That’s right!

Andrew: “Give her hell, Peeves.”

Eric: [laughs] Well, and what I love from this chapter is that the teachers are also on Peeves’s side. McGonagall, Harry could swear, he hears telling Peeves that the chandelier unscrews the other direction than what he’s trying. I’m just like, “Man, McGonagall is into some property damage here.”

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: McGonagall is like, “Righty tighty, lefty loosey.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: She just never walks away from a teachable moment. She wants to instruct everyone.

Micah: Yeah, totally. And now the school is really in open rebellion. As you said, the professors are not looking, or I should say, they’re looking the other way completely when things are going on. Whether it’s the McGonagall moment you just mentioned, the swamp that the Weasley twins created… it still exists, and it really requires that that section of Hogwarts be completely locked off, and I think it’s mentioned Filch has to actually ferry students across the swamp in order for them to get from one side to the next. And we assume that professors like McGonagall, Flitwick, others could easily remedy the situation, but they’re choosing not to. They’re choosing to let it just play itself out. They’re almost… I know the school is in rebellion, but the professors are in rebellion here, too, against Umbridge.

Laura: Right. Well, they also know that she’s too proud to ask them for help, so if she’s not willing to ask, then why would they be willing to do anything?

Micah: Right, and I think even Flitwick has a line in a previous chapter; it’s when the Weasley twins set off the fireworks, and he mentions, “Oh, I could have taken care of it, but I didn’t know if I was allowed to.”

Andrew: [laughs] Good point.

Micah: So it’s one of those really great moments from these different professors, and just seeing how they’re reacting. And yeah, Peeves has been given free reign, not that he didn’t have it before…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: … but nobody is really standing in his way of creating just absolute chaos. Doesn’t he lock Mrs. Norris in a suit of armor somewhere?

Eric: Aww, poor kitty.

Andrew: Well, that’s mean. That’s animal abuse.

Micah: [laughs] Oh, now we’re going to… okay.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot of things we could touch on here.

Andrew: Well, how about this Niffler, though? So there’s this theory that it was Hagrid who put the Niffler in Umbridge’s office, and I actually kind of think that McGonagall being up to a little mischief herself implies that it really was Hagrid who put the Niffler in Umbridge’s office.

Eric: Hagrid denies it, and this is something that he confides in the kids, in Harry and Hermione when they’re in the woods on the way to or from Grawp, that he’s going to be sacked because of it. Umbridge really thinks it’s him. And if it wasn’t him, I really want to know who it was, because presumably, it’s difficult to come across a Niffler, such a destructive, albeit small beast. Who has access to a Niffler and who would think to put one in Umbridge’s office, besides Hagrid?

Laura: Newt.

Andrew: [laughs] Newt? Newt came back to troll Umbridge.

Eric: Did Newt Scamander come in town? Are people writing him, going, “She’s crazy; you gotta help”?

Andrew: That’s kind of the thing. You would think it wasn’t a student, because if a student had been holding on to a Niffler, that Niffler would have been running around the school all the time anyway, so I think it had to be somebody who didn’t live in the school.

Micah: It’s a vicious Niffler, too, because it’s gnawing at her rings on her fingers too.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: It’s not a nice Niffler like Newt has.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think all Nifflers would probably behave that same way if introduced to so many chintzy shiny objects that Umbridge has. I don’t feel a lick bad for her, but it is just so, I guess, exciting to see the ways in which… this whole thing is ruminations on power and where power comes from, and if Umbridge does not have the support of her own teaching staff, then she is going to suffer, and she really hasn’t earned the respect or the, I guess, loyalty of the staff. She’s really isolated herself, and she’s appointing students to uphold her rules, but all of the teachers are just like, “At this point, you’ve reached the point of no return here, and we are not going to submit to your authority.” I think, really, firing Dumbledore was probably the linchpin there.

Micah: Yeah, I was going to say you really get a sense for what the school looks like when Dumbledore is not there, or you just have incompetent leadership, and that’s what exists with Umbridge being in charge. She wants to enforce her way of doing things, but especially once the Weasley twins do what they do at the end of the last chapter, it inspires – it encourages – these other students and the staff to act this way now. “If the Weasley twins can do it, then so can we, and we’re not going… and we far outweigh in numbers Umbridge and her Inquisitorial Squad.” One thing I wanted to touch on… I know we mentioned Filch helping these students across the swamp area. The word that’s actually used in the US edition – and Eric, you pointed it out here – is “punting.”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Micah: And all of us here in the US are familiar with American football, and when you think of punting, you think of kicking. So I’m surprised that this word wasn’t changed at all in in the US edition, because the thought that comes to mind… because first it’s like, Filch has a horse whip; that’s what’s first mentioned, so it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t know he was into S&M.”

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And then now he’s kicking students – it sounds like, anyway – across this swamp, and you’re just thinking to yourself, “Wait, what? What’s going on here?”

Eric: This gets me every time. It was only on this reread that I’m like, “Okay, I have to finally figure out what the hell punting is.” Because it just it reads so funnily. The Harry Potter translators, man – like the British to English translators – they were MIA this whole book.

Andrew: Well, but wait a second, maybe the American editor thought that punting meant kicking here…

Micah: It’s possible.

Andrew: … because it’s Filch, so yeah, of course Filch would kick the kids.

Eric: Maybe.

Laura: I’m sure they… also, it’s just we’re not infants over here. We don’t need to have the books completely Americanized.

Andrew: Yes, thank you.

Eric: I disagree, Laura. You know my opinion on this.

Andrew: Eric, you’re just embarrassing yourself when you say that. We can’t have our hands held. [laughs]

Eric: I need my hands held. I need it.

Andrew: Be cultured.

Micah: No, I agree, Laura. But my point being is if they were going to make other changes like they did, then this would be one example where I think it would make sense to change the word, just so that…

Eric: Yeah, if a punt is a small boat, it’s pretty clear that… it’s dereliction of duty. You should write “boating.” He’s boating them across.

Micah: So I apologize to our UK listeners in advance. But just touching on a few other things: With the school being an open rebellion, the Inquisitorial Squad is also under attack. Warrington ends up being completely disfigured, Pansy Parkinson has grown antlers, and students on the whole, they’re putting Fred and George’s Skiving Snackboxes to use, and they’re claiming that they have what is called “Umbridge-itis.”

Andrew: And saying that to her! Right?

Micah: Yeah, saying it to her face.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: That takes… yeah.

Andrew: Which I think is a fast track to detention. I don’t know why you would have the guts to say that to her.

Eric: I mean, yeah, if it’s just you, that would be nuts; it would be crazy. But she ends up putting four successive classes in detention, it says. It’s just so many – what’s the word? – delinquent students, that she just can’t… it can’t be helped.

Micah: No, it can’t. But I think it’s great, and I love the fact that they’re so willing to say it to her face.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: One other thing that happens in this chapter that we get a payoff for, finally, is that Harry comes clean about his Triwizard Tournament winnings and that he gave them to Fred and George, and this all comes about because Ron is saying that his mom is going to blame him for the fact that his brothers peaced out of Hogwarts early. And for Ron, he really feels like he’s going to get the blame here, and I wondered why. Why does he feel that he’s responsible for Fred and George? He came to school after them.

Andrew: [laughs] Brothers, they stick together. They might help each other out at the school, and he’s thinking Molly was hoping that he would try to straighten out Fred and George? I don’t know.

Laura: Well, and I think he’s also thinking she probably had higher expectations of him because he’s a prefect.

Andrew and Eric: Right.

Eric: Yeah, there’s a weird transference going on where it seems like Molly expects Ron to behave more like Percy than like Fred and George, that Ron has always been expected to kind of be a little bit more in line, but that’s just not his nature, I don’t think.

Micah: I do think, though, that it could have just been an opportunity for J.K. Rowling to lead into the reveal of Harry providing the funds for the Weasley twins, because it seems like it’s been building up for some time now, right? There’s been questions over the course of… since the end of Goblet of Fire, “How did Fred and George get the resources to be able to do all this testing?” And then now they’re opening a shop up in Diagon Alley. And Hermione seems surprised, and then really after Harry, like, “Why did you give them the money?” I don’t understand why she’s so upset here or looks to give Harry a hard time.

Andrew: Because they’re in the prank business, and he’s bankrolling their prank business. This is everything she hates, and Harry is funding it.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: I think she still has… breaking the rules doesn’t come easy to her, or natural at all, and I think she still has a lot of anxiety about doing things a little less by the book.

Laura: Well, also, it was a lot of money. Like, what, 700 Galleons?

Eric: A thousand.

Laura: Oh, a thousand. Yeah, so even more. So I think she’s just thinking of it from the perspective of… I guess it would be something along the lines of if I loaned one of you $100,000 – not that I have $100,000 – so that you could go off and open a joke shop. I think my own mother would be like, “What are you doing?”

Andrew: [laughs] But Harry already has tons of money. If you had a million dollars and you lent me $100,000, I would be like, “Can I have more money?”

[Eric and Laura laugh]

Andrew: No, I would be like, “Well, okay, that makes sense, because you have plenty of money to spare.”

Laura: Never gonna happen. Broke for life.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: Well, and it wasn’t like it wasn’t well thought through on Harry’s part, because doesn’t he make sure that the twins buy something for Ron as well at the end of Goblet?

Laura: Oh, yeah, new dress robes.

Micah: And I just think that Fred and George have been brothers to Harry, and in many ways, I would say, more so than they’ve been brothers to Ron, at least from what we’ve read in this series. And the fact that there’s that connection, Harry just felt like he was investing in their future, and it was clear that their future was not going to be in some sort of academic field; it was going to be in the creation of this type of fun, joke-related stuff.

Eric: And I love how it finally comes out, because Hermione and Ron are initially speculating in front of Harry much worse scenarios, right? Like maybe they’re in with Mundungus on the illegal item trade. And Harry, who’s been really struggling with coming clean about this from, as you say, at least the beginning of this book, is finally like, “Okay, it’s at the point where it’s getting so much worse that they don’t know what is happening. The speculation is going rampant. I should just tell them.” And so it’s almost to clear their name that Harry reveals that he gave the money to Fred and George. He doesn’t want them being thought of as criminals, because they’re not criminals. I thought that was a very good character moment for Harry to finally fess up.

Andrew: I think Harry is just really impressed by what the twins have done, and he wants to see them thrive, so he decided to fund their business. And like I said, a year or two ago I wish he just took a stake in the business. I wish he had ownership.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: I wish this was an episode of Shark Tank and he took 10% of the business for giving all these Galleons.

Micah: There you go.

Eric: Well, he does get everything he wants for free, right?

Micah: As he should.

Eric: The Harry Potter discount.

Andrew: Yeah, I’d rather still have a percentage, a cut.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Maybe Albus Severus gets an internship there in Cursed Child.

Andrew: Oh, there you go.

Laura: Well, yeah, somebody has to fill Fred’s position.

Micah: Oof.

Andrew: Wow.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I mean, it’s one of the feel-good moments of the series, and Ron lights up because he’s like, “Great, now I’m not in trouble!”

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: He asks Harry for permission. “Can I tell Mom that you did this?” [laughs]

Andrew: “Please let me pass the blame off.”

Micah: Next year, Harry’s Christmas sweater is going to have a big tear in the middle of it because Molly is pissed off. But I think that’s the best possible scenario, too, because you know Molly is not going to get mad at Harry.

Eric: Right. I think if she sees or hears that Harry did something, the default is to focus on the merits. Because at first you’re like, “Why the heck would he…? Oh, well, he did help them out. He’s always been a brother to them.”

Micah: So this is not the only thing that Hermione is bothering Harry about; the other thing is Occlumency, and Harry is struggling to clear his mind every night before bed. And I thought we could talk a little bit about if there’s something comparable to that in the real world, and I thought about meditation. And I know clearing your mind, meditating has become such a big thing today, particularly with everything that all of us are going through with the hiatus, the Coronavirus… it’s tough. And I think the expectation that a 15-year-old can just clear everything out of his mind with everything that Harry has going on right now, it’s a big expectation.

Eric: Right.

Micah: I don’t know how many others here meditate or use all the apps that are out there, but I just thought we could speak a little bit from our own experiences and how challenging it is to actually do that.

Andrew: Yeah, especially when you’ve had a long day or maybe you’re anticipating the next day. I mean, there’s always crazy stuff happening at Hogwarts, so how can you possibly go to bed knowing that tomorrow will be sort of peaceful at all?

Laura: Right. It’s also just… like Micah was saying, it’s just really hard, in general, to clear your mind. It’s something that… you have to learn how to meditate. The first time that you sit down to do it, you’re not going to do it right.

Andrew: And also, the other problem is that Harry doesn’t really want to. He wants to get through that door at the end of the hall.

Micah: Right.

Laura: See, honestly, their first mistake is he should be doing this in the morning at the start of his day.

Eric: Ahh.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Because if you try to clear your mind at the end of a full day, it’s going to be a lot harder, but you can clear your mind in the morning; that way you’re going into the day relaxed, fully meditated, and then when you try to clear it at night, it’s maybe a little bit easier.

Micah: That’s a really good point. And yeah, Andrew, what you said about he now has this goal deep within him, whether that’s him personally wanting to figure out what the Hall of Prophecy is now that he has actually gotten through the door, or it’s Voldemort wanting to snatch the prophecy down from wherever it’s being housed right now. I mean, I know I’ve had dreams where it’s like you wake up in the middle; you’re like, “Damn, I wanted that to continue. Where was it going?” And I think it’s the same thing for Harry. He wants answers, and when he has this eagerness within him, it’s hard to say, “Hey, clear that from your mind and don’t think about it.” I think Hermione has just some unfair expectations, because I’m not sure she’s ever tried this out herself, what she’s asking of Harry to do. Let’s think about it that way too.

Eric: I mean, the stakes are just so high. She doesn’t have to practice because Voldemort is not trying to get into her mind. I think it just is a shame seeing how many opportunities Harry had to shape up, considering he falls hook, line, and sinker for Voldemort’s fake imagery in a couple chapters’ time.

Micah: Yeah. We also get a little bit of a tiff between Harry and Ron. After this conversation about Occlumency, Ron mentions to Hermione that Harry was talking in his sleep again, and Harry gets really pissed off at Ron for that. Ron is just trying to help. I mean, he’s got a big Quidditch match coming up; he’s thinking about how he’s going to try and save the day, or just keep out the other team from scoring about a hundred goals on him. So he’s got a lot happening.

Eric: [laughs] Ron is the secret MVP of this chapter.

Micah: He is, because he continues to have this uncanny ability to protect the future. And he mentions that “If Montague doesn’t recover before Slytherin play Hufflepuff, we might be in with a chance for winning the Cup,” and that’s exactly what happens. So Ron is the long descendant of Sybill Trelawney, fourth cousin removed.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Invest in this, too, Harry.

Eric: Yeah. He does it without Harry and Hermione’s support. And given that awful comment that Harry made, that he was dreaming about Ron almost catching the Quaffle – “Just a bit further, just a bit further” – that was just so… that was such a low blow for Harry to say that. I’m surprised Ron’s ego recovers enough to even do anything good at Quidditch.

Micah: Well, he knows he sucks. I mean, that’s probably a terrible thing to say, but I think he knows he’s not good deep down. But you’re right, that comment does seem to kind of just brush over Ron a little bit.

Eric: Yeah. But I mean, he is at the point where he’s accepted that he’s not good, and he says there’s nowhere to go but up. It’s good attitude for Ron to adapt in this late hour.

Laura: Yeah. Well, and also, I think Hermione raises a really good point that he might be doing better because Fred and George aren’t there, and Fred and George have historically given him a really hard time about this.

Micah: Yeah, there’s that lack of pressure that would otherwise be present, so I think that’s a really good point. But things play out the way they need to and Gryffindor is in a position to win the Quidditch Cup, and we don’t see any of the match, really, outside of some initial introductions and opening plays, because Hagrid shows up and wants to take Harry and Hermione on a secret mission.

Andrew: They can’t even watch a Quidditch game in peace. This is why Harry can’t sleep at night and clear his head.

Eric: [laughs] This was clever for Hagrid.

Micah: Was it?

Eric: Yeah, this was… now, I don’t support anything Hagrid is doing in this chapter, except I think it’s clever to pull them out during a game because the entire school is distracted and people don’t seem to notice them leaving.

Micah: But how is that possible?

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: Because Hagrid is huge.

Micah: Because number one… yeah, Hagrid is huge. He also looks like he went 12 rounds in a MMA match, and he’s trying to get his way through the crowd – it’s noted just how big he is – and he’s pushing students out of the way to make his way over to Harry and Hermione in the first place. I know we have to suspend belief with all this, but it just seems odd to me that nobody notices that they disappear, and the fact that Umbridge wouldn’t have Harry and Hermione and Ron under watch all the time.

Andrew: All monitored, yeah. Well, she knows where Ron is, but yeah, Harry and Hermione, for sure, should be watched. And I think she would keep an extra eye on Harry because he may be mad that he can’t play, so he may rebel in some way.

Laura: Well, and if she’s thinking of sacking Hagrid, wouldn’t she be keeping an eye on him too?

Andrew: Right, waiting for an excuse to fire him.

Eric and Laura: Yeah.

Laura: And just to illustrate this, earlier on in this book, I believe it was, it’s observed that Hagrid has feet the size of baby dolphins.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: And she says hands the size of trash can lids. I mean, I’ll be clear, the children that Hagrid flattens against the seats as he goes to get Harry and Hermione, they notice him. But for the most part, he does seem to be able… he gets them out. I mean, they’re gone for hours, and so yeah, he chose the right moment. There is some stroke of genius in Hagrid’s planning here because it ends up working out for him.

Micah: I just think it’s dumb luck, honestly. I don’t think there’s any strategy here. There’s a huge risk, right? They just happen to walk out of the forest at the time that the match is ending, and they’re in complete disarray; it’s mentioned just how they look. I don’t know how they’re able to blend in with the other students, because their robes are ripped, their hair is messed up, they get scratches all over their face, they’re bleeding… they look like Hagrid.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: So I’m actually surprised that this, at least for right now, goes off without a hitch.

Eric: Right.

Laura: Well, everybody’s just so shocked that Gryffindor won, they don’t even notice.

Micah: Wanted to talk a little bit about connecting the threads, and Laura, I’ll let you take it. But Hagrid enjoys keeping dangerous things in the forest; this is not the first time that he’s done this.

Laura: No. [laughs] And he also enjoys encountering dangerous things in the forest. Something that I thought was really interesting was looking at their interactions with centaurs in this chapter versus their interactions with centaurs towards the end of Philosopher’s/Sorcerer’s Stone. At that point in the first book, the centaurs don’t really seem to mind that Harry and Hagrid are in the forest; they ignore them more than anything else. They don’t directly answer any questions that Hagrid is asking; they’re more concerned with stargazing. Whereas in this chapter, their reaction is decidedly a bit violent, and they communicate to Hagrid, like, “Listen, you’re not welcome here anymore. We were killing Firenze, and you stopped us from killing him. He is a traitor.” And I found that whole mentality really interesting, because they were trying to kill Firenze because they saw him as going into servitude to humans. And I thought it’d be interesting to look into a little bit of background on centaurs to see where that mentality might come from. So I looked it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica, and according to that, centers were descended from this Greek character named Ixion, who was allowed into Olympus by Zeus, and Ixion tried to seduce Zeus’s wife, Hera. Zeus then created a cloud, fake version of Hera. I imagine this as the cartoon Hercules, by the way. That’s how I’m seeing it.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Mostly, yes. I would agree.

Micah: It’s funny, I just… well, you said Hercules; I saw The Rock apparently did a version of that movie not that long ago.

Laura: Oh, really? [laughs]

Micah: It was on TV the other day, yeah. Sorry, there’s nothing else to do in quarantine.

Andrew: Did you watch this after The View or before The View?

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I actually was switching back and forth, yeah.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: Gotta get both in.

Laura: So Ixion and this fake cloud Hera ended up giving… he ended up fathering a child, Centaurus, who was deformed, and because of his deformity, he was banished to Mount Pelion, where he fathered the centaurs by the mares that lived there. And that to me was interesting, because you see the beginning of their legacy as a race being based on their banishment, and you see in the Potter books that the centaurs really do try to keep to themselves. So I don’t know if Rowling’s intention was to say that this Greek myth is the source for the centaurs in her books as well, but I think that she was carrying over the theme of centaurs choosing to live in exile and being very insular and not wanting anything to do with outside communities, because they don’t have a choice.

Eric: Interesting character building, because the centaurs as a tribe, you can’t really showcase how tribal they are or how much they keep to themselves unless you have somebody from their ranks fall out, like with Firenze. And it always just strikes me how brutal their punishment is for Firenze, that they were going to kill him, and how just imposing they are on Hagrid and his students here. It’s very serious, and I think it’s so interesting that this was one of the subplots that found its way into this book, because it does provide, I think, crucial insight into what they are as a race.

Laura: Right. And then from Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them on centaurs, Newt Scamander wrote, “Being intelligent and capable of speech, it should not strictly speaking be termed a beast, but by its own request it has been classified as such by the Ministry of Magic.” And during the forward of that book, it’s clarified that this is because they did not want the same classification as vampires and hags, which is what they would have had, had they been classified as a “being.” So they don’t want anything to do with magical governance; they don’t want anything to do with the Ministry. They just want to live their life in isolation in the forest. Well, at least the centaurs we see, but they’re not interested in having any kind of interaction with humans at all. Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them also clarifies that they kind of view wizards and Muggles as two sides of the same coin. They’re very suspicious of all of them, so they don’t feel a particular inclination towards one group over the other.

Micah: Yeah, they’re definitely territorial, and they feel protective of the forest as a whole, and certainly that Hagrid is invading their space. And a forest is a big place, but at the same time, I think he’s also bringing a lot of risk into that forest. And if you take the proud nature of the centaurs aside, you’d have to imagine that bringing a giant into the forest could be a very big threat to the centaurs. Who knows what Grawp may think? “Dinner time,” right? He could look at them as an afternoon snack, for all we know.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Right. It’s also worth asking, how does introducing this giant upset the ecosystem in the forest?

Laura: And it does.

Eric: Oh, horribly, horribly. It only takes Grawp a couple of seconds to rip up entire trees that have been growing there for 40 or 50 years, or 150 years.

Andrew: Probably longer, yeah.

Eric: So it’s absolutely just the most disruptive… and for somebody like the centaurs, who are only focused on events in the big picture and decades from now and that kind of thing, their pace is so slow compared to Grawp, this chaotic element who is really having to keep them on their feet, or on their hooves, as it were…

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: … every second of every day, and I don’t resent or think it’s wrong for the centaurs to be a little bristly towards Hagrid for this. This is extremely disruptive.

Laura: Harry even notes it. When they’re walking into the forest, he notes the distinct lack of creatures. He’s like, “Usually we would have seen something by now, but there’s nothing.”

Micah: Right.

Andrew: Well, they were all the Quidditch match. That was why.

Eric: Sports!

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: They were watching…

Laura: All the creatures went to the Quidditch match. [laughs] But I also thought it was interesting, too, because in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, it notes that centaurs have a pretty high danger rating. They’re rated with X’s, and so centaurs get four X’s, and that means that they’re very dangerous to humans and that only highly skilled wizards should be interacting with them, which Hagrid…

Andrew: Is not.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But there is a footnote that says centaurs are only rated dangerously because they need to be treated with respect, and the second that you don’t treat them with respect, they’re going to F you up, right?

Eric: Like hippogriffs.

Laura: Yes, exactly. So that, I thought, was so cool because here we are in Order of the Phoenix, and the last time we’ve interacted with an animal like this with Hagrid was in Prisoner of Azkaban with Buckbeak.

Micah: Yeah, it’s definitely interesting. And then you look ahead, and I know events have to play themselves out throughout the rest of Order of the Phoenix, but despite this conversation that happens between Hagrid and the centaurs, at the end of Half-Blood Prince you do see them pay tribute to Dumbledore, and in Deathly Hallows, you do see them join the battle. So I just find it… what changed? What kind of philosophical change happened? And I know reintroducing Firenze plays a role, but I just find the way that it plays itself out to be very interesting.

Andrew: They want to pay their respects to a great wizard, I think, who did care for them. And in terms of Book 7, they wanted to save the world, I guess. [laughs] I mean, Voldemort taking over would not have been good for them, either.

Eric: Right, right. If they can legally – or for a good cause – stomp other people to death, they’re going to do it.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Well, and they’ve shown that they’re very much more interested in the bigger picture. So from Book 1, they’re not really concerned about Hagrid’s trivial unicorn problem. They’re like, “Hey, Mars is bright tonight. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but that’s not a good thing.”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: And so when you get to the idea of the second wizarding war, that is something that’s a bigger picture thing. And like Andrew was saying, it’s not good for anybody if Voldemort wins, so I think that’s why they get involved, ultimately.

Micah: And it’s also important to note that there are differences among the centaurs, just like there are amongst wizards, right? You have Firenze, obviously, who is friendly. On the other side, you have Magorian and you have Bane; you have others who are… I wouldn’t say they’re necessarily bad or evil, but they certainly strike a different tone with Hagrid than somebody like Firenze would. All right, let’s talk a little bit about Hagrid’s decision-making. This whole situation… Eric, if you want to defend him, please go ahead, but…

Eric: No, that’s the last thing I want to do. This is indefensible. [laughs]

Micah: He’s dragging two teenagers into the forest to make nice with a fully grown giant. This has danger written all over it. There’s just so many things here, but Hagrid just doesn’t get it.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: And I know this is his brother and he wants to take care of his brother and do the right thing, and there’s something to be said for that, but…

Andrew: [tearfully] Family man. Gotta look out.

Micah: Yeah, he’s a family man, and it just… I would say the introduction itself is fine, but putting the responsibility on Harry and Hermione and even Ron to take care of Grawp? To come visit him in the forest?

Andrew: It’s awful. It’s completely awful.

Micah: Like, dude, you do it. If you’re getting kicked out, you can hang out in the forest all you want.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Well, no, he can’t. He can’t because the centaurs would be pissed. But what he should do is kidnap Harry and Hermione and keep the kids with him and Grawp in the forest. That way the centaurs won’t kill Hagrid, because as we hear later in this chapter, they don’t want to kill the kids because they were innocent.

Micah: He should just get a couple of dummies that he could pass off for kids.

Andrew: [laughs] That look like children? Or babies! He can just cradle some babies. Grawp and Hagrid, parenting two newborns. Beautiful.

Laura: Well, I mean, Hagrid brought him all the way back from Eastern Europe. Why couldn’t he take him wherever the heck it is he’s going?

Andrew: That’s a good point too. He’s very hidden in the forest.

Eric: It’s hard to justify Hagrid’s logical thinking.

Micah: Also, how did he get him across the water? Geographically. If he’s coming from Eastern Europe…

Eric: Oh, did he get him to Scotland?

Andrew: On a boat.

Micah: I guess.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh, they took the Chunnel.

Micah: That’s what sunk that ship in Crimes of Grindelwald. They were too many giants stowed away on the lower deck.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, that is a very good question. They must have snuck on a boat, I guess.

Eric: But what is Hagrid thinking? He’s like, “Well, Grawp is now…” He basically rehoused Grawp in the forest. He just said, “This is a great place for you.” He did not obtain the consent of any other living creature in the forest. Now he’s putting Harry and Hermione’s lives at risk by having them even venture into the forest multiple times to keep him company. I mean, nobody can argue his heart’s not in the right place, but this is one instance where Hagrid’s brains should have told him not to ask this of them.

Micah: Totally.

Laura: I like that you brought up “He didn’t ask anybody in the forest if they were going to be cool with this,” but Grawp doesn’t want to be there either. He notes that when he was bringing him back, the reason it took so long was because Grawp kept trying to escape and go back to his original home, and he has to tie him up in the forest. He’s literally… it mentions there are vines or ropes or something tying him up and keeping him there. That’s not healthy. How does he feed himself? I know Hagrid says he feeds himself, but how?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, I was wondering that too! He just sits really still, and then once a deer walks by, grabs them?

Eric and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: And it’s also a security risk for the school. It’s not just the forest.

Andrew: Ugh, so true.

Micah: Let’s imagine he breaks free, right? We don’t know what direction he’s going to run in, but let’s assume he runs towards Hogwarts. What happens then? They have a giant issue on their hands.

[“It’s starting to sound like a security nightmare!” sound effect plays with sirens]

Eric: There it is.

Andrew: I wanted to bring this up as well. I mean, Grawp aside, this forest is freaking dangerous. And the school is parked right next to it, and any kid… yeah, okay, you’re not allowed to go in, but of course, kids are going to be tempted to see what’s in there, and there’s these centaurs who want to kill humans. I just can’t imagine a school in the real world…

Micah: Well, they would never hurt the kids. They say that.

Andrew: They are willing to kill humans who cross them, and it’s…

Eric: Right.

Andrew: I would not be comfortable there if I was a kid.

Micah: I also think this particular scene is laying the groundwork for what happens later with Umbridge and her confrontation with the centaurs. Hagrid thinks too much with his heart and not with his head; this is another perfect example of that.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, it does tug at your heartstrings a little bit that Hagrid reveals to Hermione that all the other giants were bullying Grawp for being too small at 16 feet, [laughs] and that he would have died, maybe; they maybe would have actually killed Grawp, because that’s how giants roam. So Hagrid is kind of saving his life, but what’s the quality of life, given that he’s basically a slave? He’s a prisoner in the forest where he doesn’t want to be. Where does free will cross with Hagrid’s best interests for Grawp?

Micah: Just add him to the list, right? Go back to Sorcerer’s Stone. You have Norberta; you have Fluffy; you have Buckbeak. I’m sure I’m missing others along the way, but Grawp is just another example of somebody who is a huge risk to pretty much anybody outside of Hagrid. And Hagrid, in this case, is getting beat up pretty good.

Eric: Yeah, he’s just not in touch with reality at all, period. Even though he’s been teaching Grawp some English and some phrases, his introduction of Harry and Hermione to Grawp goes poorly. It’s still not… he’s unable to accomplish even the most basic level of communication. And Hagrid, every time we see him in this book, he’s been purple and bleeding. It just… to what Firenze said to Harry, Hagrid’s attempt is not working. He needs to understand and feel that. What is he thinking?

Micah: Yeah. I forgot Aragog too. Let’s not forgot Aragog.

Laura: The one that got him expelled.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Yeah, and the one that also would have killed Harry and Ron if it weren’t for a certain flying Ford Anglia.

Micah: Right. All right, well, I think we beat up Hagrid enough on top of…

Andrew: Time for the Hagrid Suck count.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Lots of times in this chapter.

Micah: He’s been beat up enough in this book, so we can leave him alone for a little bit.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: But once Harry and Hermione make it back up to the school – alluded to this earlier – but they’re hearing very much of a different tune than what they were anticipating, and that is the Gryffindors singing “Weasley Is Our King,” and apparently Ron won the match. He’s good at Quidditch. Something happened. All that needed to happen was for Harry and Hermione to dip away for a couple of hours, and magical things happened to Ron on the Quidditch pitch.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: But he didn’t notice that.

Micah: Well, yeah, that’s the thing. I was going to say that too; clearly he didn’t notice they weren’t there.

Andrew: Yeah, he probably would have panicked and gotten distracted. But it’s said earlier in the chapter, maybe by Hermione, that Fred and George being off the Quidditch team might be a good thing for Ron, because the twins may intimidate him.

Eric and Laura: Right.

Laura: And this is such a great moment, because Ron is hoisted up on the shoulders of his classmates; he’s carrying the Quidditch Cup. And we’ll all remember in Book 1, when Ron looks in the Mirror of Erised, this is what he sees!

[Eric gasps]

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Laura: He sees himself as Head Boy and Quidditch captain. Of course, he’s not quite either of those things here, but close enough. And he sees himself holding the Quidditch Cup, standing out amongst all of his brothers as successful and accomplished, and Ron finally gets that moment.

Eric: Aw.

Andrew: Good for him. Justice for Ron.

Laura: It’s all downhill from here, though.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, and it’s perfectly… I don’t want to say it’s subversive. It’s cool that the Gryffindors are able to claim the “Weasley Is Our King” song as their own. Change a couple of words, from “Always lets the Quaffle in” to “Never lets the Quaffle in.” See, that writes itself. All of a sudden the Gryffindors have a rallying song, and the Slytherins are just poo-poo. They’re just gone.

Andrew: Okay, so let’s turn to the Umbridge Suck count. She didn’t have a big role in this chapter. We just have one here right now: wrongly accusing Hagrid of putting a Niffler in the office.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: Yeah, I want to know who did it.

Andrew: Anything else, though?

Eric: Yeah, I can’t think of anything else.

Micah: No, I mean, she really gets her comeuppance in this chapter, so yeah, I can’t really think of her sucking too much.

Andrew: You could say not getting the school in order faster, because of the beginning of the chapter.

Micah: You could. I mean, yeah, just not having any semblance of control over the school.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Laura: I added, just for giggles, letting Filch punt students in the American edition.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Andrew: I agree. Okay.

Micah: And letting him live out his fantasy of having a horse whip.

[“Hem-hem!” Umbridge Suck count sound effect plays]

Eric: Can we just make that one and say enabling Filch’s worst tendencies?

Andrew: I already played the laugh, though.

Eric: Oh, damn.

Andrew: It just automatically got added to the tally.

Laura: It counts.

Eric: All right.

Micah: And not acknowledging Umbridge-itis as an official sickness…

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Micah: … and giving out detentions for four straight classes.

Andrew: That’s a stretch.

Micah: Maybe. I don’t know.

Andrew: Umbridge-itis isn’t real.

Laura: We’ve got to get to 100 before the end of the book.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: We do.

Andrew: We will.

Eric: We’ll get there.

Micah: I’m sure we will, yeah.

Andrew: We’re now at 88. Only 12 to go; don’t worry.


MVP of the Week


Andrew: Okay, and now it’s time for MVP of the Week.

[MVP of the Week music plays]

Andrew: Now, mine is actually the Most Vicious Player of the Week, and that is Hagrid for taking these two kids into the Forbidden Forest. I don’t care if the centaurs are like, “Oh, we wouldn’t touch kids.” It’s still extremely dangerous. And to put them next to that giant? Vicious.

Micah: Vicious.

Eric: Yep. I’m going to give it to Ron for breaking his losing streak. Not only does he do that, he does it without anyone else’s help. It’s down to himself.

Andrew: That’s a true MVP.

Eric: Yeah!

Micah: I’m going to give it to Peeves for just making Umbridge’s life a living hell.

Andrew: Most Valuable Peeves.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: And I’m going to give it to Magorian for not hurting foals.


Rename the Chapter


Andrew: Okay, and now let’s rename the chapter. Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Double Danger for Granger, Who Must Teach a Stranger.”

Eric: I renamed the chapter Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Niffler in the Office.”

Micah: All right. I went with…

Andrew: I didn’t like that one. I’ll just be honest.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Eric: Okay, all right.

Laura: Geez, Andrew.

Eric: I’m going to work hard to impress you the next time.

Andrew: [laughs] Okay.

Micah: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.” Or “Hide Them.” I played around with both of those, but “Hide” is probably a better one.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Laura: Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30, “Sorry, You Want Us to Do What?”

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: If you have any feedback about today’s discussion, send it on in; use the feedback form on MuggleCast.com or email MuggleCast@gmail.com. You can also use that email address to send us a voice memo; we love hearing from you as well. And like Micah said at the beginning of the episode, we are striving to reply to every email we receive, and we do read every single email as well, so thank you to everybody who takes the time to write in. It’s great because it’s lovely to hear from everybody, because when we’re podcasting, we’re talking to nobody. We’re talking to each other, but there’s no audience. So to hear from you really means a lot.

Micah: Well, there’s our patrons.

Andrew: Yes, that’s true. That’s true. They are listening live.

Micah: But I get what you’re saying. And here’s the thing, I mean, we try our best also, when we include these emails, to include everything. But I think – as you know, Andrew – people like to write a lot, and once they start theorizing and thinking about things, there are some lengthy emails that come in, and we want to make sure we acknowledge those, but sometimes the easiest way to do that is just by responding to the email, as opposed to including it in the show.

Andrew: So thanks, everybody, who writes in. We do love hearing from you. And Micah mentioned our patrons; patrons do have access to each episode as we are recording it, so thanks, everybody who’s joining us on this Saturday morning. If you become a patron and pledge at the $5 level or higher, you will receive a MuggleCast 15th anniversary T-shirt. Our 15th birthday is this August, and we’re celebrating with our first shirt in about four years, so pledge by June 30 to be eligible to receive yours. And of course, you’ll get instant access to lots of other benefits too – years of content – and we’re about to record another installment of bonus MuggleCast. In celebration of all eight movies being on HBO Max, I wanted to discuss what is our go-to Harry Potter movie? I don’t necessarily mean our favorite movie, but if we have all eight at our fingertips just a tap away – we don’t have to get up and pull a DVD out of the closet, ugh – which movie will we lean towards?

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So we’ll discuss that. And we also asked our patrons to share which movie is their go-to and why, so we’ll have a lighthearted fun discussion about which movie we’ll just pull up.


Quizzitch


Andrew: It’s time now for Quizzitch.

[Quizzitch music plays]

Eric: Last week’s question: Who is the first person to score a goal against Ron this chapter? It’s the only goal that Harry and Hermione see. The correct answer is, of course, Roger Davies, the Ravenclaw captain. Correct answers were submitted by Sup Sarah, Samwise Potter, Skywalker, Reese Without Her Spoon, Bort Voldemort, Sydney, Count Ravioli, Joan Glomsicker, Caleb McReynolds, Rachel, Katie Moore, and Jason King. And for next week’s question: Who is the Head of the Wizarding Examinations Authority?

Andrew: Hmm. Okay.

Eric: It’s OWLs time, baby.

Andrew: [laughs] All right. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We would also appreciate if you followed us on social media; we are MuggleCast on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We will post a picture of my lovely new canvas print of that infamous J.K. Rowling tweet this week.

Micah: And your goat.

Andrew: Well, we should post your goat.

Eric: We should all take our goats to the park.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: On, like, a leash?

Andrew: Walk our stuffed goats?

Eric: Yeah, and take pictures of our goats out in the wild.

Micah: I was going to say, you might as well film the reactions of people around you.

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: “Put a mask on that goat!”

[Eric laughs]

Laura: No, definitely their reactions to grown adults dragging around a stuffed goat wouldn’t be more capture-worthy.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: I see some weird stuff around here. People walk with their parrots and other animals that really don’t need to be walked.

Micah: That sounds like New Orleans. I remember I used to see people on the street with snakes around their necks and all kinds of crazy stuff.

Andrew: [laughs] All right, thank you, everybody, for listening. We really appreciate your support. Hope everybody is doing well. We’ll see you next week. I’m Andrew.

Eric: I’m Eric.

Micah: I’m Micah.

Laura: And I’m Laura.

Andrew: Bye, everybody.

Eric, Laura, and Micah: Bye.